5 10 182 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e60dc869cbce01c35fe843aa0a4ca62d.mp4 6ebe11ea2ac78a7b141b1066d32dad13 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral history of David Shaffer, November 20, 2025 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource David Shaffer Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-11-20 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. David Shaffer License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Description An account of the resource Captain David Shaffer served in Europe as an air traffic controller during the 1960s. Shaffer was raised in San Diego County where his father was an engineer for Convair. From a young age, Shaffer aspired to become a military pilot, a goal which his tall height prevented. As an air traffic controller, Shaffer spent most of his deployment in Portugal and West Germany during the Cold War. He designed forward airfields during the 1967 Arab–Israeli war, although the conflict was over before they could be used. After leaving military service, Shaffer taught high school industrial arts in North San Diego County. He used the G.I. Bill to gain his master’s degree from San Diego State College and his private pilot license. In this oral history interview, Shaffer tells stories from his military service and reflects on the importance of patriotism. Subject The topic of the resource US Air Force Captain Cold War Consolidated Aircraft B-24 B-32 Convair VJ Day Victory over Japan Day 2nd Pennsylvania Heavy Artillery Regiment American Civil War Prussian British American Revolution German American cavalryman Fort Bliss Galloping Goose Denver and Rio Grande Railroad Denver University San Diego State University marine engine mechanic Officers Training School Second Lieutenant air traffic controller Keesler Air Force Base TERPS Terminal Instrument Procedures forward airfield U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Six-Day War Sinai Peninsula Lajes Field Strategic Air Command General Curtis LeMay Officer in Charge Hahn Air Base B-36 B-36 Peacemaker A model B-36 engineer little people Lackland Air Force Base officer trainee club officers' club FAA Federal Aviation Administration ATC Navy Tinker Air Force Base TERPS BFS Bundesanstalt für Flugsicherung Jimmy Stewart World War II First Lieutenant 1634B AFSC Air Force Specialty Code 1634A airmen sergeant traveling childhood Davis–Monthan Air Force Base B-52 McGuire Air Force Base Colonel 50th Tactical Fighter Wing Ramstein Air Base Hitler Youth military police BMW Afrika Korps POW camp Marshall Plan R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company Bundesrepublik Deutschland Federal Republic of Germany Bundeswehr West German Army F-100 Super Sabre Ground-Controlled Approach Tempelhofer Feld Berlin Tegel Airport C-130 Air France Sud Aviation Caravelle Stars and Stripes ADIZ Air Defense Identification Zone US Army Canadian Air Force the Pentagon Andrews Air Force Base Philadelphia Airport hippie protest family community draft dodgers teaching credentials high school teacher G.I. Bill pilot training VA Veterans Affairs ATP airline transport pilot private license San Diego State College Palomar Airport friendship skiing F-4 Phantom TACAN Tactical Air Navigation DME Distance Measuring Equipment German Air Force MiG Mikoyan Sukhoi Wild Weasel F-105 radar anti-aircraft Robert McNamara Lyndon Johnson Cuthbert A. Pattillo Fulda Gap patriotism Freemasonry draft Agent Orange Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Europe Colorado Springs (Colo.) Colorado San Diego (Calif.) California South Cheyenne Canyon Road (Colo.) Pikes Peak (Colo.) Balboa Park Texas Philippines Pennsylvania Cortez (Colo.) Denver University Shelter Island Azores (Portugal) Portugal Hahn (Germany) Germany North San Diego County San Antonio (Tex.) Oklahoma City (Okla.) Tucson (Ariz.) Arizona Mississippi New Jersey Israel Middle East Austria Bavaria Kastellaun (Germany) Koblenz (Germany) Hunsrück-Kaserne Libya North Africa United States Winston-Salem (N.C.) North Carolina Iowa Vietnam Berlin (Germany) Frankfurt (Germany) West Berlin Frankfurt Rhine-Main (Germany) East Germany West Germany Soviet Union Garmisch-Partenkirchen (Germany) Kitzbühel (Austria) Zweibrücken (Germany) Moscow (Russia) Munich (Germany) Philadelphia (Pa.) Ohio New Zealand Australia France Canada Carlsbad (Calif.) Fallbrook (Calif.) Arkansas Mount Rushmore Yellowstone National Park Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/bf4f4b113bcc11eb37cf6ce6bdf0b1fc.pdf 8c4371b5c262998739da418766fb3436 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Shaffer, David. Interview transcript, November 20, 2025. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource David Shaffer Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-11-20 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. David Shaffer License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ShafferDavid_BeyerJason_2025-11-20_transcript Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Description An account of the resource Captain David Shaffer served in Europe as an air traffic controller during the 1960s. Shaffer was raised in San Diego County where his father was an engineer for Convair. From a young age, Shaffer aspired to become a military pilot, a goal which his tall height prevented. As an air traffic controller, Shaffer spent most of his deployment in Portugal and West Germany during the Cold War. He designed forward airfields during the 1967 Arab–Israeli war, although the conflict was over before they could be used. After leaving military service, Shaffer taught high school industrial arts in North San Diego County. He used the G.I. Bill to gain his master’s degree from San Diego State College and his private pilot license. In this oral history interview, Shaffer tells stories from his military service and reflects on the importance of patriotism. Subject The topic of the resource US Air Force Captain Cold War Consolidated Aircraft B-24 B-32 Convair VJ Day Victory over Japan Day 2nd Pennsylvania Heavy Artillery Regiment American Civil War Prussian British American Revolution German American cavalryman Fort Bliss Galloping Goose Denver and Rio Grande Railroad Denver University San Diego State University marine engine mechanic Officers Training School Second Lieutenant air traffic controller Keesler Air Force Base TERPS Terminal Instrument Procedures forward airfield U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Six-Day War Sinai Peninsula Lajes Field Strategic Air Command General Curtis LeMay Officer in Charge Hahn Air Base B-36 B-36 Peacemaker A model B-36 engineer little people Lackland Air Force Base officer trainee club officers' club FAA Federal Aviation Administration ATC Navy Tinker Air Force Base TERPS BFS Bundesanstalt für Flugsicherung Jimmy Stewart World War II First Lieutenant 1634B AFSC Air Force Specialty Code 1634A airmen sergeant traveling skiing childhood Davis–Monthan Air Force Base B-52 McGuire Air Force Base Colonel 50th Tactical Fighter Wing Ramstein Air Base Hitler Youth military police BMW Afrika Korps POW camp Marshall Plan R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company Bundesrepublik Deutschland Federal Republic of Germany Bundeswehr West German Army F-100 Super Sabre Ground-Controlled Approach Tempelhofer Feld Berlin Tegel Airport C-130 Air France Sud Aviation Caravelle Stars and Stripes ADIZ Air Defense Identification Zone US Army Canadian Air Force the Pentagon Andrews Air Force Base Philadelphia Airport hippie protest family community draft dodgers teaching credentials high school teacher G.I. Bill pilot training VA Veterans Affairs ATP airline transport pilot private license San Diego State College Palomar Airport friendship F-4 Phantom TACAN Tactical Air Navigation DME Distance Measuring Equipment German Air Force MiG Mikoyan Sukhoi Wild Weasel F-105 radar anti-aircraft Robert McNamara Lyndon Johnson Cuthbert A. Pattillo Fulda Gap patriotism Freemasonry draft Agent Orange Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Europe Colorado Springs (Colo.) Colorado San Diego (Calif.) California South Cheyenne Canyon Road (Colo.) Pikes Peak (Colo.) Balboa Park Texas Philippines Pennsylvania Cortez (Colo.) Denver University Shelter Island Azores (Portugal) Portugal Hahn (Germany) Germany North San Diego County San Antonio (Tex.) Oklahoma City (Okla.) Tucson (Ariz.) Arizona Mississippi New Jersey Israel Middle East Austria Bavaria Kastellaun (Germany) Koblenz (Germany) Hunsrück-Kaserne Libya North Africa United States Winston-Salem (N.C.) North Carolina Iowa Vietnam Berlin (Germany) Frankfurt (Germany) West Berlin Frankfurt Rhine-Main (Germany) East Germany West Germany Soviet Union Garmisch-Partenkirchen (Germany) Kitzbühel (Austria) Zweibrücken (Germany) Moscow (Russia) Munich (Germany) Philadelphia (Pa.) Ohio New Zealand Australia France Canada Carlsbad (Calif.) Fallbrook (Calif.) Arkansas Mount Rushmore Yellowstone National Park Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/7dcf86c4fe6bc8b429316d83d49b9a41.mp4 4b944af44d5690584c9a4c8d3ca857cd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral history of David Taitingfong, August 30, 2024 Description An account of the resource David Taitingfong is a member of the Chamorro community and involved with the group Prugraman Sinipok, which teaches a two week Chamorro language immersion program. David describes his involvement with Prugraman Sinipok and how his interest in sharing the Chamorro lanugage and culture has shaped his life. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource David Taitingfong Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-08-30 Subject The topic of the resource Language revival Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Decolonization -- Guam Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Guam, United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en"><strong>In copyright</strong></a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. David Taitingfong License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Type The nature or genre of the resource Audio file Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_2024-08-30 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. community history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f1954c51e658c7c1490af7202f3dbde2.pdf 5ca2c1981c17983bb5b3e2fb65211dd5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Taitingfong, David. Interview Transcript August 30th, 2024. Description An account of the resource David Taitingfong is a member of the Chamorro community and involved with the group Prugraman Sinipok, which teaches a two week Chamorro language immersion program. David describes his involvement with Prugraman Sinipok and how his interest in sharing the Chamorro lanugage and culture has shaped his life. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource David Taitingfong Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-07-22 Subject The topic of the resource Language revival Chamorro language Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania Colonization -- Japan Colonization -- United States -- Guam Decolonization -- Guam Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English and Chamorro Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. David Taitingfong License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_2025-07-22_Transcript Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Guam, United States San Diego (Calif.) Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history Prugraman Sinipok https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4bcd8ed877ea09e7427c82b1554dcd38.pdf 1d119ec1d00bab23677c754d035b658b PDF Text Text Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Madeleine Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Diana Saldivar at California State University San Marcos for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Friday, April 14th, 2023, and the time is 11:57. I'd like to start with asking you a little bit about yourself. Where did you grow up and what was your early life like? Diana Saldivar: Ooh, that's a long question (both laugh). That's gonna be a long answer. How long do we have? Um, I actually was born here in San Diego, California on a military, one of the military bases. I don't know exactly which one. My mom forgot to give me those details, but all I know is that the hospital is now torn down. So I know it doesn't exist anymore, but I assume it was either 32nd or one of the Navy bases down south. Because I didn't know, we lived in North Park for a little bit, from there, because my dad's military career, we moved several places across, the West Coast. So I've been to Fallon, Nevada, San Francisco, Treasure Island, back to San Diego, Hawaii. And then once my dad retired, he retired at Camp Pendleton here in Oceanside. So I ended up being around probably fourteen, fifteen (years old). So right in the middle of my middle school, high school years is when I came to kind of be more of a, a transplant to San Diego. So--it was definitely still different from me, (laughs) for me from moving from San Francisco to a really big, you know, metropolitan city with a lot of diversity to Oceanside, which was very (laughs), in development still. Meyer: Um-Hm. Saldivar: So that was a big challenge. And then also because of me moving around to so many schools, I think I went to eight or nine schools by the time I was fifteen. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: So it wasn't like I grew up having solid friends, grew up with them during grade school and things like that. It was always a lot of transition. So me entering high school, middle school when everybody has friends since they were like second grade in kindergarten, that was very different for me. Fortunately, I was able to find my own community. I was able to find other, military transplants. So we just kind of found each other in a sense. So, I ended up graduating high school at Vista High, in 2000, oh (both laugh) that's so long ago. We just even had our 20th, annual, reunion. It was delayed because of the pandemic (COVID-19). Meyer: Right Saldivar: So it was 21(st annual reunion), which made it feel so much worse (laughs). So I graduated in Vista High and, I didn't really know what to do. I mean, I was kind of one of those, I was a first generation, what do you call it? Immigrant child who, my parents did some college, but it was more like vocational college. They didn't really understand the full traditional college career, how to get there. So I had a lot of high school counselors. They kind of helped with, you know, what are your thoughts about going into, you know, college, have you thought of, you know, applying and things like that. And it never really crossed my mind. I was just kind of going as it goes. But I ended up applying to San Diego State, Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos and one other college. Because of my dad's military career, he was able to get the GA or, the VA Bill (Veterans Affairs, often referred as GI Bill). So I was able to use it as his dependent, which was nice because affording college was just out of the question and having that nice little package was so good (laughs). So I had to stay in California, so I was very limited to where I could go. And I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I was like, you know, “Let's just go to Cal State San Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 1 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Marcos. It's close to home (laughs).” You know, I didn't really understand the whole, let's research and let's look at this and that and things. I'm just like, okay, I'll just go to college and put, I don't know, well non-major and stuff like that. And then, you know, I ended up being here, started 2000, dropped--got kicked out (both laugh) 2002 because I didn't meet the math requirement (laughs). I'm not sure if they still have that here, but as an undergrad you had to meet an English and math requirement. I definitely met the English because I did IB (International Baccalaureate) English, like honors English, but I was terrible at math, and I don't know why I was taking math classes at seven o'clock in the morning (Meyer laughs). So that was terrible setup for me. So then I ended up going to Palomar Community College for a couple years to get myself back on track, doing the, IGETC (Intersegmental General Education Transfer Curriculum) program. And probably by 2004 I found myself back here at Cal State San Marcos, you know, with a brand new focus, more (of an) understanding of what I wanted to do. Finally declared a major and two minors, like a crazy person. Like why would I wanna be the school more? I don't know. I ended up then graduating in the winter, or yet fall of 2007, but I walked, spring 2008, which was great because it felt really nice to kind of be able to represent my family, kind of being the first gen(eration) going across. And then it was like, what do I do now? And then I ended up going to San Diego State for my grad program, but that in itself wasn't even planned. Meyers: Um-Hm. Saldivar: This is kind of how my life has been. Meyers: Yeah. Saldivar: It just doesn't get planned. It just happens. Which is probably not a great (laughs) way to live life sometimes, unless you have a goal. It was my mentor, Dilcie Perez from the Cross-Cultural Center, or actually just kind of the student activities area and where she looked at me and she's like, “Did you ever think about making this a career?” And I was like, “What, I could get paid for this?” (both laugh). So that was kind of pretty much how it all happened in, the three months before I was graduating, I went to a info session about higher education programs and kind of figuring out that you could work with students, these are things that you could do to build your, your career in, in the collegiate setting. And I was like, oh, okay. I'll apply to of course, a California state school because that's how I can afford (laughs). And you know, still on my dad's, VA. Ended up getting in the San Diego State program. And so right after, the fall semester, I had a semester off because of the way that the, the, the calendar, schedule was laid out. So I had some work experience. So I ended up getting some work experience at the--oh my gosh. St. Paul? No, not St. Paul's. Oh my gosh. Father Joe's. Oh, my I’m like why I’m saying St. Paul's. Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. Saldivar: The Father Joe's Villages. I ended up, being a vocational counselor there for a couple months. And then I moved on to do my grad program at San Diego State. And then this was the longest title ever. Let me, let me see if I can get it right. Masters (laughs) of Arts in Higher Education with a Specialization in Student Affairs Administration. Meyer: Wow. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 2 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: Yeah (both laugh). You should see what it looks like on the degree (Meyer laughs). It's like, my gosh, what did it say? I'm like, just higher ed. Just, just say higher ed. Meyer: Just put et cetera at the end. Saldivar: Right. And (both laugh) everything's an acronym. So yeah, I went to San Diego State, got do-done, and then I graduated in 2010, when the economy was just (blows raspberry, gives thumbs down gesture). Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: So it was a terrible time-Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: To graduate because education was literally redlined. Nobody was hiring. People were, either being laid off or decreased (furloughed) and things like that. So I, it was, it was a difficult time because, you know, I grew up with that mentality, especially that, first gen mentality that if you go to college and you get these degrees, you're going to get a good job at the end. You're gonna get paid well, you're gonna be able to buy a house and all these other things, which is a very, you know, generational (laughs), you understand. We're like, yeah, here, we're now still paying rent. Meyer: Yeah Saldivar: So it was, it was very, it was very humbling. At the same time it was, it was an eye-opener to the reality of like, this is not really the American dream that I was fed to believe in a sense. If that'll, you know, if you're educated, you'll be much more successful, whatever that looks like in that terminology. I would say at least, probably 80 to 85% of our class did not end up in higher ed. Meyer: Um-Hm. Saldivar: They only got in if they were already doing an internship and then was already kind of luckily able to find funding to continue that internship into a part-time or, uh, what do you call it? A contracted job? So it wasn't even like they were full on (jobs). It was, you know, you're, we could, we could help keep you on for another year. And it was like yearly basis until they finally, leveled out and then got the full-time benefit stuff. So that's what happened to a lot of my, cohort, either they all ended up going home to where they, came from and then going into nonprofit or some type of K-12 (Kindergartentwelfth grade) education prep program. So we tried to find jobs, or I definitely tried to find jobs that could still, you know, help hone in my skills that are transferrable to get back into higher ed. But it took a long time to do that. So, I mean that's kind of more of my, educational professional side (laughs) about me. I guess, on a more personal side, I'm the first born of two. So I have a younger brother, two years younger than me. I, you know, grew up, like I said, all over the place. My parents are, my mom is from the Philippines and then my dad's Chinese. So he's from China, Hong Kong. They both immigrated to the states probably when they were fifteen, sixteen. Meyer: Wow. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 3 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: Yeah. So they were like teenagers. So they still kind of had deep cultural ties to their homelands, but then also was at that point in where they were at school, where they could become more acclimated to their American culture and things like that. So I kind of, I wanted to be, say like, I'm one and a half, two generation kind of in a sense where they understood some of, you know, American norms and values and things like that, but at the same time had that duality of, how do we stay culturally close to ourselves and things like that. So it, growing up I still kind of, you know, butt heads in, in a sense (laughs) with my parents. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: Like, well, that's not how I feel doing that now. Meyer: Yeah Saldivar: You know? I mean, even my grandma had immigrated later on and so, I had a lot of my family in the Bay Area. The San Francisco, San Jose, or Stockton area. And my Chinese grandma, R.I.P. (Rest In Peace) love her to death. She was very, very strict Chinese ma--grandma. And where she tried to marry me off so (laughs), I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. (laughs). I mean, I was too young to understand what was going on, but at least my mom was like, “We are not doing that!” Meyer: Oh my God. Saldivar: Yeah (laughs). Meyer: How, how old were you? Saldivar: I was probably about seven or eight when my grandma was grooming-Meyer: Oh-Saldivar: Me to, you know, prepare for like, have you met this child? Or, you know, I have a friend's son who's on my oh. What the heck? (Meyer laughs) No! Meyer: Your mom is like, “We're not, (both talking) we’re not doing this—" Saldivar: Yeah, exactly. We're not exactly (laughs). Meyer: Oh my gosh. Saldivar: Yeah. It was kind of neat because my, my--the thing is because my dad is a firstborn male of the family. So he's spoiled and everything and oh, since I'm the first daughter, you know, we have to make sure she's married off well. And then my, my brother who's actually considered the first-born male of the firstborn son gets so much better benefits and perks than I do. So even though I'm the first born (unintelligible) oh no, you're a female. But my son--my brother still gets like, everything. Meyer: And he's the baby. So it's, yeah. (Saldivar laughs). Oh man. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 4 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: Yeah. So that's kind of just a little bit about me. I know that was, a real deep dive into a lot of stuff. Meyer: No, that's great. That's great. Um, yeah, I, well that answers my question about your educational journey too. Which is perfect. Saldivar: There you go. Meyer: Um, and then I was just going to ask, how did you first become aware of the Cross-Cultural Center when you came onto Cal State San Marcos’ campus? Saldivar: That’s a, (laughs) that's actually a really good question. Um— Meyer: How did you wander in? Yeah. Saldivar: Yeah. And I think that's always the funny thing is people don't know about it. I think what was hard was when I was here on campus and versus like how it is now, it wasn't visible. Meyer: Oh OK. Saldivar: You--it was not even like an indicator. There was no signage, there was not like, how the Veterans Center is literally right there in the middle of campus or, you know, the Student Center is right there. The, the Cross-Cultural Center, or what it was called formerly is the Multicultural Center was in a back office kind of like this. It was hidden in Craven Hall (now Administrative Building), fourth floor way in. So when you walk in, it's not right there. It's like you have to go halfway through, then down this tiny corridor and then it's a door. Meyer: Um-Hm. Saldivar: And it's, you think, okay, either it's a janitor’s closet or it's where they keep all the, um, what do you call it, the computer stuff and everything— Meyer: Yeah Saldivar: Like a storage closet. You're just like, “Where is this place? Am I in the right place?” And (they’re) like, “Keep going down. (laughs) You're following the right area”. Like we had signs and arrows and everything. In different bright colors to make it feel like it's okay, (Meyer laughs) it's a safe space. You're coming to, you're know, we're not going to kidnap you or anything. (both talking) Meyer: This is not a meat locker. Saldivar: Right, exactly. You're going to make it out alive. Meyer: Yeah, yeah. Saldivar: The way I ended up getting there, funny enough was I was just going through--when I returned back to school, my focus was just get my degree and go, you know, I wasn't even thinking about being Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 5 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 involved, you know, student life, things like that. That wasn't even on my radar, until I started taking community, what do you call it? Sociology classes. So my major was Communications and I minored in Sociology and Ethnics Studies and my Ethnic Studies teacher--I am terrible with names (laughs). I see her face Dr. Elsie, (whispers: Elsie), no, Elsa, Elsie (Dr. Sharon Elise), something like that. Meyer: Uh-Hm. Salvidar: And she--was talking about, you know, race and, racial identity and things like that. And so she was very involved in the school, and something came up in where there’s a position for ASI, our Associated Student Inc. for a Director of Diversity and Cultural Events or, something like that. I'm terrible remember(ing), those kind of details years back. But yeah, it was with ASI and I, so it was a Cultural and and Diversity Coordinator. So it'd be in charge of all the events regarding, you know, student orgs ,and things like that. So she know would talk about in this class and she was like, you know, this is available if you guys are interested and stuff. And then she personally took me aside and she's like, “I think you should go for this Dee.” I was like, “really?” She was like, “I think you might be good for it. You should try it out.” I was like, “Okay, cool.” That was my thing. (laughs) I was just like, okay, people see something in me, I guess I'll try it. It wasn't anything like, oh, I have so wanted this job, or I should be interested. It's like, okay, let me just fill it out and stuff and you know, and ask questions, you know, your personal identity. What do you think you would bring on campus? Why is cultural diversity important to you and, and to the students? Those are kind of some of the things I remember. And, and you know, I was filling it out, just kind of taking a lot of the experience. I grew up, you know, being a military child and being in San Francisco and other places and having to adjust to those. It's just, you know, feeling--just more of creating a belonging on campus. Meyer: Um-Hm. Salvidar: Because especially during that time, there was not a lot of students of color on, on campus. It was very predom-, we called it the pre-primarily, PWI. Primarily a White Institution (Predominately White Institution). That was, what do you call it? Oh geez, I forgot what you call it. Commuter (student body). Yeah. So it was very big commuter student, there was no student life on campus. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: It wasn't as lively as it was, is now or a couple years before. So I applied for it. I think I was the only one (laughs) that applied for it because I don't think, because ASI wasn't even really built up either. We were such a young campus. And so I interview it. I ended up being on the board and so that was kind of my shoe into student activities and student involvement. And that's where I got to meet other people, meet other campus organizations, realized, oh my gosh, there's much more to on-campus than going to class. Meyer: Right. Saldivar So from there I ended up, you know, having to--part of that position allowed me to network and coordinate with a lot of different folks on campus, which was great. And that's when I caught the attention of Alexis (Montevirgen, second Associate Director of Multicultural Programs). Who was a part of the Multicultural Center at a student affair, student activities department. And he would be attending some of the stuff that ASI would be putting on. And he's like, “So have you thought of, you know, maybe Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 6 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 wanting to move into student, you know, affairs and activities? You know, I have a position that'd be coming up,” you know, but because with ASI it was only a one-year thing. So it wasn't like you could continue. I mean, I could continue on if I wanted to, but, you know it was just my foot on the door just trying to see what, it was about. And he's like, “Yeah, you know, we actually have a center that you could be a peer educator and all this stuff come by. Let's talk. You know, I'd love to see what you'd be interested in doing for us.” And, and, it was kind of amazing to see a male Filipino-Meyer: Um-Hm Saldivar: Faculty, staff member on campus. Because it was like, wait, there's somebody that looks like me and he's interested in what I have to do and talk about. So it was kind of really neat to kind of see him as a mentor and a friend and somebody that looks like me, but could understand also culturally, you know, where we come from. What was interesting was I hadn't really explored my Filipino identity as much, because I wasn't really exposed to it other than my family. And so I felt more closely to my Chinese American identity. So him being Filipino and being like, hey, you know, I see you, let’s work together. Let's figure out what we could do. I felt like it was an opportunity for me not just to, you know, be a part of that center, but also to help kind of selfishly myself, kind of, I learned who I am. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, in this role. So after I did ASI for the one year, they're like, “So you want to continue?” I'm like, “Actually I want to move over there (points, laughs).” So they, they always laugh because Sarah Gallegos was my supervisor for ASI. So her and Alexis, you know, would work together and stuff and she's like, “You stole my person (laughs).” So they would always joke about that and everything. “Stop stealing my people!” Meyer: They're poaching. Saldivar: Right. Exactly. He literally just straight up poached me. He's like, so you interested. So that's how I ended up being a part of the Multicultural Center as, it was, it was a different title at that time. It was, I, I don't know if it was ambassador or, because it wasn't even called peer educator at that time. It was just kind of like, I was his assistant because the peer educator program hadn't, hadn't even started yet. We were in, he was in the— the works of actually building it. So I kind of came on more as a, as like an executive assistant to him helping him organize what is the peer education supposed to look like? What are some programs we could start doing? Things like that. So looking at more of the administrative logistic planning of it before even, just even being a student. So it was kind of nice because, I was able to do some of my work experience to like, hey, you know, let's get my type A personality going here. Yeah. So (laughs). Yeah. So that's how I fell into it. And I was there for almost two and a half, three years. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: Yeah. I continued on with it. He was just like, yeah, you're staying on. I'm like, okay. (laughs). Meyer: Aw. Saldivar: Yeah. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 7 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Meyer: Well, it sounds like you were really essential to the early space. Saldivar: I want to say I am, I guess. I mean, I was just in it because I felt like it was such a great opportunity to create a space for students who, didn't feel like they belonged on campus. And just to be with great minds who want to think big and create a culture and a system of, what do you call it? Just, you know, integrate a lot of things on campus that wasn't there. And it was, I felt like it was one of, what do you call it? Now, I'm looking back like I'm, when I was young I was like, “I’m in it. This is fun. Yay!” Just go ahead and do this because, you know, I just want to be part of it and I'm now looking back like, I was in an incubator. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: I literally was in a startup not realizing it was a startup. So yeah. I was kind of looking back like, oh dang, (laughs). I did all that. Oh— Meyer: You were at the beginning of something really big. Yeah. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: So it sounds like the Cross-Cultural Center, or the Multi-Cultural Center as it was called, was a lot smaller when you started. Saldivar: Oh my gosh, yes (both laugh). Meyer : How would you say it was different when you started and when you left? Saldivar: Oh my gosh. We had people (laughs), the campus community actually knew what the CrossCultural Center was. So that was really, it was so interesting to see within the two-and-a-half, three years how much it had grown. When I started it was just me and Alexis in this small little room, red couches, you know, we had some posters up. We had a bookcase full of just some, you know, books that we called “our library” (laughs). Now that, I think have a huge like, depository of information that people can have resources to. But at that time we didn't even have this library, so it was-Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: I know it's hard to imagine (laughs). So there wasn't like a lot of resources focused on DEI (Diversity and Equity) work, you know, even it was even called DEI work at that time. It was just called, you know, you know, diversity and multiculturalism. So a lot of the lingo has even changed from the time I was there to now. I think what, I mean, just breaking it down to even certain years, the first year was just building, just building a foundation, getting down what is the Multi-Cultural Center about what’s its place on campus and how can we be in collaboration and community with all the other centers that were even being established. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So it was nice that it was a really good time for the Cross-Cultural Center, Women's Center, um, the LGBT (Lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, and transgender) Center, the Pride Center, all those centers kind of Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 8 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 working together to build each other up. You know, we knew that it was important to have these centers, but we didn't wanna have just one centralized one that filled everything. Its like, no, we need to really, I don't wanna say--segment them. But we, they did needed to be segmented because there's all different sorts of needs for each one. But we also wanted to work together as, you know, we are here together as a whole but specifically they could help you with these certain things. You know. So we were, that was such a great time in where we didn't, we weren't fighting for resources and I think still they're not fighting for resources, so, which is good. So we started in Craven Hall, the small little area, and I think what really helped was just having students come and just hang out and know there's a space for them. Yeah. It ended up being a lot of API (Asian Pacific Islander) students of course. So, you know, it kind of, it was hard to get that stigma off for a while that's like, “Oh, that's the Asian Center.” It's like, no, we're actually open to a lot more people. But it just happened to be a lot of Asians in here. Meyer: You're not the first person who said that. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: I’ve heard that a few times. Saldivar: Yeah. I know Floyd is still dealing with that. (both talking) Meyer: Yeah, Floyd mentioned that. Saldivar: I’m sorry, I'm so sorry (laughs). Myere: No— Saldivar: Because what, what was nice about the, the, the Multicultural Center or when it changed to the Cross-Cultural Center was that it was a nice incubator for student organizations to start too. There was, since there's no space for folks, there's no space to grow. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: And no space to, to create communities. And so that's kind of what happened with the CrossCulture Center--well, I like Cross-Cultural Center, but it's Multicultural Center--back then Multicultural Center (laughs) was, it was an incubator for, for student orgs (organizations). So Kamalayan Alliance actually started from there. The Filipino organization that me, and actually my husband was a part of the, the found founding group. Yeah. So we founded that and it's crazy to see how far they are. And I was, oh god, 20 something years later. Oh, that makes me feel old. And they're like, “Oh yeah, 26th anniversary.” I'm like, “has it been 26 years?” Meyer: You're like, can we say 15 maybe? Saldivar: Can we just say anniversary? Just, just leave the number out. Meyer: Yeah (both laugh). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 9 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: It's crazy to see how many generations have gone through that. I know--what do you call, APSA? The Asian Pacific Student Society? The Vietnamese group. I know we also helped, and this was later on also, you know, the Black Student Union, things like that. And kind of just developing and growing and finding spaces to find each other. And then being able to create that community. And then if they needed to go off and do their own thing, that was fine too. But we just were happy that, hey, people found each other through here and they were able to do something and create action. So that was kind of a really, something that I hold dear to my heart is that there was a space for students to do that and to find friendships and god, I don't know how many of them got married to each other. Meyer: Aw. Saldivar: (laughs) There’s a lot of people that are like, oh, you're still together. We're still best friends and now y'all have kids. And it's crazy how much the, the, that space had, impacted so many people so many years later. Meyer: Wow. Yeah. Saldivar: So I guess, so what else happened there? I mean, there's just so much (laughs). We did move three times, the time I was there, so it was nice that they realized this space is too small for us. They ended up, the main office ended up taking note of how many students were coming in a day. So then they could show to, I don't know, the chancellor, the provost, I still don't understand the hierarchy. And I'm a student and I'm in higher ed(ucation). And I was like, what (laughs) You know, they're like, there's a need here. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: You see what's happening is that these students are coming in, they're using the space, they're doing this, this, this, and this. So they were provide--so us, us students just hanging out and chilling and doing whatever we're doing there. They were using us, as I won’t saying using us. But, you know, they were using us as a case study saying, “Hey, this is something important to us. Look what's happening. We need a bigger space.” And so what was nice is that through, I think between 2005, five and six or six or six or seven, we ended up moving us to the bottom floor of the Craven Hall. Or was it the first floor? It's one of the, the lower ends. Which was nice because not only was it semi-visible to, the students now, because people would have to walk by the center to get to the one stop. And we were in front of that really nice, painted mural. But they also, it was a bigger space. It was an awkward space, but it was bigger. It was this weird triangle and were like, how are we gonna fit anything? So it was really weird, like sectioned off stuff. It was weird. But what was nice is that because of being more visible people were able to see, “Hey, wait, what's going on in there? Oh, that looks cool.” Then we were able to even promote more of our programs and be like, hey, have you guys heard of this? Or, you know, here's a flyer, here's A-frames. Things like that. The red couches still, still came with us because the red couches came (both laugh) wherever we went. Everybody knew us by the red couches. I think, that was really one of the key things that brought a lot of students in, because you know, I mean, before we just had-Meyer: Benches Saldivar: Benches. And basic chairs. And it was not comfortable. It didn't feel welcoming. People like, “Hey, you wanna take a nap? We got some red couches.” People just pass out there next thing (Meyer Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 10 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 laughs) you know, they made it a home. You know. Other things that happened in there was when a lot of programming was starting to be developed. So I was there as the assistant for about six months until the new semester kicked in. And me and Alexis had come up, helped develop the peer educator program. So the peer educator program consisted of four peer educators. I was kind of the main lead one. Jay (Franklin) was hired on as, the LGBTQ peer educator. And then there was Brittany, which I forgot her, what her specific one was. And then there was Stephanie who was like spiritual and religious. So we were kind of sectioned off into certain areas of our expertise to kind of help reach out to those groups. At that time it kind of worked because it was such a small population of the students, we could do that. As time has gone on, they just made 'em all peer educators and they were just kind of more cross trained in everything and anything. And whoever had those expertise would be kind of referred to. So it became more of a referral system than it was like, “Oh, you go to Jay because he's specifically this identity.” But it was great because we were able to all really learn from each other. Oh yeah. And then there was Cher, how can I forget, I forgot Cher. Cher is fun. Cher just, her (laughs) demeanor was so different, she was, very introverted, but once you got to know her, oh, she had the most sassiest mouth ever. And I'm just like, “Cher! We can't say that!” (Both laugh) But she was great. She, we, we came really close. And I think that's what I love about being in that peer educator program that we became really close. You know, we were all in it brand new. First of all, we were all students of color, so we're like, oh my god, there's more you know (laughs). And it was a great learning opportunity for all of us. So the things that we didn't know or understand, it was a safe space for us to explore that. So as peer educators, you know, we came up with some programming for the students. So we did things, and it kind of kind of all organically came together. You know, one, one of the things that we all worked on was called Multicultural Mondays. So on Mondays, once or every twice a month, I forgot what days.(laughs). There was a, you know, a certain schedule to it. We would, look at certain identities or things that would be meaningful for the students to wanna explore. So just kind of added programming to it. One of the things that I love that I hold dear to my heart was one of the programs we did called “Dinner Dialogues.” That was a very pricey program, but it worked (laughs). I'm like, “Do we have a budget?” (Both laugh) I didn't know what that was. I'm just like, “Can I have money for this?” Meyer: Well, Jay was saying, getting people in with food always worked. Saldivar: Oh gosh. Yeah. We ended up having a fridge and a microwave, but until we moved down to the, to the second floor. So yeah. That's one of things. Like we got food, we got pizza because, the campus was a food desert. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: We had nothing other than the Dome (food services originally operated by San Diego State University’s Aztec Shops). And the Dome was one of, first of all kind of expensive, and two, it was gross (both laugh). It was, oh. Oh no. So one of the things that we came up with called Dinner Dialogues, and it was a really great, I wanna say experience of how that organically happened as a program. It was just a bunch of students, hanging out in the Cross-Cultural Center past four o'clock, which was very rare because nobody wanted to be on campus past two. Usually the classes ended at two, you were gone. But these students felt safe. They felt home. They felt like, this is where I want to be. So we all ended up just getting food. I think this was when Chick-fil-A opened and we all got free, what do you call it? Chicken sandwich passes. Meyer: Right. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 11 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: So we all went got like (laughs), thirty-five sandwiches. Oh, it was crazy. And yeah, we all sat there, we're just all eating. And we started talking about-- it was my, my good friend Jacob Dansler, he was, Black male and it was some of us and we were all, you know, all from different backgrounds and stuff. And we were talking about some of the challenges that we've had as a person of color or what it mean to be a man of color, or a woman of color or, you know, LGBQ person of color. And it was really cool to kind of just sit there and have that kind of dialogue with each other and learn and be able to ask questions that were, I wouldn't say in, in a way that we didn't feel like we were being judged for asking these questions. It was a very safe space and a space for learning and, and feeling, you know, we actually have a lot more in common than we realized. And people were like, you know, we need to make this a program. This is cool. I would love to have these kind of spaces where we could talk about these things like this. And so that's where Dinner Dialogues ended up coming out and we're like, yeah, free meal, but at the same time, let me talk with you about things that maybe we don't have these opportunities to talk about all the time. So it was really great. That program kicked off really well and we had ended up having, I think it was for two years until I actually ended up leaving. And then I don't know what happened if it continued or if it morphed and changed ‘cause it always changes with people who come in. But yeah, I think that was one of really one of the main things that kicked off there. And then Jay, because he was the LGBTQ peer educator, he also was able to bridge a lot of the communities together and start, start planning out the Pride Center. And so that was kind of really nice in where the, the Multicultural Center was the hub of creating more and building more and growing out. So while he was there, we worked together in supporting not only the, oh gosh, LGBT group, but then also, okay, how are we gonna get a space for these students as well? So that was a really big achievement for Jay and for the Cross-Cultural Center in that sense. And it was nice that we were able to support each other in building those communities. You know, mine was Kamalayan, his was-Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, the pride, oh, we call it, I think Britney was helping with the BSU (Black Student Union) part, things like that. So we were all there to support each other, support the students and just, I don't know, we were just doing it because we wanted to. It's just ‘cause we had the passion for it and we loved it. I don't think we—it was like fully intentional what we were doing. And until we're like, oh crap, look what we did (laughs). Meyer: Yeah. You wanted to create a space for you and the people on campus and it just kept being a space. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: That's great. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: All right. Saldivar: I know, I think I've-- there's so much. I hope I'm catching everything (laughs). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 12 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Meyer: No, you're, you're actually answering some of the questions before I even ask 'em, which is great-- (both talking) Saldivar: Oh, perfect. Okay good. Meyer: Yeah. How did it, how did the Cross-Cultural Center help you develop and express your cultural identity? Saldivar: Oh gosh. I think it made me, I think it was, it was, that was just one of the many layers upon my education studies here. Because in my communications major, and because minoring in sociology and ethnic studies, those classes helped me really look internally of who I was, what my identities meant, how they came across to, to the students, to the people that I work with. You know, really being able to put all that theory and then the Cross-Cultural Center allowed me to put it into practice. Oh god, I sound old (laughs). Meyer: No. Saldivar: Being able to put those together. I'm like, ah, makes me (unintelligible). Meyer: No that's, that's a great way to put it. Yeah. Saldivar: Yeah. And I think that helped me a lot in regards to the development of who I was becoming and who I am now. You know, coming into a college, like I said, you know, first gen(eration) Chinese, Filipino-American, I'd like, what does that, what did that mean to me? You know, even when I, I went into college, I didn't even know, I didn't even know that I was considered first gen. I was just like, yeah, I'm going to college because everybody says I should, or, you know, my parents weren't able to go and they said I should go, so I'm gonna go, you know, you just don't have that frame of reference until you get into a space. They're like, “Oh, are you the first one to go in your family? Oh, so you’re the first gen.” Wait, what, what does that mean? So, and so, you know, not realizing there's the support systems and things like that to help you and understand and develop that. And I think that's what really helped me was with that Cross-Cultural Center is to be--is to meet not only my community and people and friends, lifelong friends, who’re gonna help me, you know, be where I am today. But also meeting the mentors and the folks who do the work and how they've helped me understand more of, I guess the practice and, and the acknowledgement of like, it's okay to be uncomfortable. You know, it's, it, it's it, you have to be uncomfortable with the un-- you have to be comfortable with the uncomfortable, you know, these are things that I don't know, and it's okay not to know. You know, you're gonna move into certain spaces where you're gonna feel uncomfortable and how do you unpackage that? How do you take that and make it into a learning opportunity? And that's one thing that Dilcie Perez has-- she taught me throughout my time being there. She was such a great guidance and mentor for me that I give her kudos to everything about what I do with the work that I do. I remember when I was asked to return back for the, 15th-year anniversary of the Cross-Cultural Center, and they asked me and Jay to be speakers, I was like, “Oh, good lord, what am I supposed to talk about?” (both laugh) There's so much to talk about! And it took me a while to realize what I wanted to say. And it came back in, to the fact of being intentional. And that always stuck with me. The one thing that Dilcie always said to me, she was like, what's your intentions on what you know, of what you're doing? Why are you doing this? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 13 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Meyers: Um-Hm. Salvidar: So I wasn't just doing something for the sake of doing it, but just to understand, you know, is there an impact? What are the consequences? What is the bigger picture that you're trying to achieve? Even (Former Dean of Students, Gregory) Toya was a really great, mentor and where he asked, “What are the students learning outcomes?” I was like, students what (laughs)? What, what? He's like, yeah. Why are we putting on this? Why are you putting on this project? Or why are you putting on this program? What do you want the students to learn? So that really gave me a great foundation and understanding of, why am I doing this? Just, am I doing it for the sake of doing it? Is it self-serving, or is it really here for the students? And being kind of in a, in a selfish (selfless?) teaching moment. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So I, I wanna say that the Cross-Cultural center really helped me build, you know, a framework or a lens of how I move forward in doing whatever I do or move, as I grow up, you know, it's like, oh my gosh, it made me mature (laughs)! Meyer: They gave you a little toolkit with all the stuff you-Salvidar: Right. Meyer: You needed for adult life. Saldivar: Exactly. And I, and I thank them for that. ‘Cause now that I'm, you know, now in kind of their space. In their spot. It's so weird to have that flip in where I was looking for mentors who look like me or who I could connect to. But now I'm in that space and where I'm the mentor and where I'm reaching out to students say, “Hey, I see you. Let me, you know, I'm here for you. If you need a space or someone to talk to, I'm here.” You know, and it's so weird to be in that odd spot (laughs) right now, but it's because of them that they were such great models by example that I now have those skills and that toolkit to be like, okay, you know what? I know what it feels like to be in that spot. Let me help you get to where you wanna be. Let me help you unpackage what's going on with your lives and things like that. You know, just an example was a couple weeks ago I had a grad student, who identifies as Chinese American reach out to me. And she's like, I wanna be in where you are at in doing marketing and communication. But how do I, you know, deal with the cultural, challenges with my parents who want me to be in the medical field. Meyer: Um-Hm. Salvidar: And I was like, oh girl, let's talk (both laugh)! You know? And so it was really nice and, and I would say the experience of being, being able to talk to her and her just at the end feeling so relieved and feeling like she could find someone that she could connect to. Someone that she was able to be like, oh my god, I'm not alone in this feeling and this experience and it's okay to feel what I'm feeling. Was such an elated moment for me to be like, oh my gosh, I can still help students (laughs). You know-Meyer: You took that weight off her shoulders. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 14 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: Yeah. And it felt good to be, you know, I was there and I didn't have anyone to help me with navigating that. And I'm glad that I was able to be there for her to have those experiences that I could be able to connect with someone else who's going through the same thing. So yeah, the Cross-Cultural Center helped me grow a lot, Personally a lot. In understanding who I am, what space I take, what space I should take, you know, what being present means. In spaces that don't have many people of color or female people of color. Yeah. I mean it's (laughs). It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. Meyer: And I understand that you made a lot of friends there and met your husband at the CrossCultural Center. Saldivar: (laughs) Yes. Meyer: Tell us a little bit about how you guys met. Saldivar: Oh my gosh. (laughs). Meyer: Well, it's relevant to the Cross-Cultural Center, so. Saldivar: Right. Yeah. I mean, that's the funny thing. It's just, wow, y'all (both laugh) we're, we're like, y'all met and y'all married, now you have a kid. Okay! Meyer: So you're not the only ones. There's multiple. Saldivar: There were several people who, I would say yeah, got married some of our best friends and stuff. So me and Randy (Saldivar), met through a friend. It was not intentional when we first met. I was actually working with ASI at the time. So we were, I was at the cancer, one of the cancer walks, the Susan G. Koman cancer walks that we had on here at the field. I was a part of, you know, the walking team and my good friend Trish at the time, she was another Filipina-American and who were able to connect, was there with me to help support. And we were both at the check-in, check-in table at that time. And this is when we had the Nokia phones. Okay. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: This is how old it was. So she (laughs)--her. Randy had called her ‘cause I guess he was studying at the library. He was like, “Hey, what's up? What are you doing?” She's like, “Hey, come down.” You know, “I'm with my friend Dee, and we're at this thing, you know, just come and hang out.” He's like, okay. I didn't even know who he was. I didn't know who this guy was. She's like, oh, my friend's coming over. I'm like, okay, cool. I'm sitting there with my--I was in a Japanese 101 at this time, so I have my Japanese book out. I'm reading it, you know, he comes down with his boom box and (Meyers laughs) and I’m, I was like, what are you doing? He's like, oh yeah, you know, just B-boying. And I'm like, okay, cool. Whatever. You know, I didn't know anything about the hip-hop culture and stuff. And she's like, “Oh, this is my friend Randy, Randy this Dee,” I'm like, “Cool. Okay.” And he looks down and he is like, “Oh, you're studying Japanese?” I'm like, “Yeah, I'm in 101.” He's like, “Oh, I took it.” I was like, “Oh cool. How was it?” He's like, “Oh, it's really fun. He's like, do you need help with it?” I'm like, “No, I'm cool, thanks.” So (both laugh). So that's was my first initial meeting with him. Not even a thought. He was just a passing thought. And there was another time where they had the International Festival here on Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 15 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 campus, and it was me and Trish again. And we're eating Ramen sitting on the floor. Randy comes by, says hi again. And this is a time where we had the old school, film. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: So we didn't have phones or anything. It was just, yeah, he was going around taking pictures, right, and--but this is where you could actually get it digitally downloaded, which was weird. On a CD, and he had taken a picture of me and Trish and it wasn't until years later when we started dating where we're going through photos. And it was labeled “Trish and Friend.” Meyer: Oh my God. (laughs) Saldivar: I was like-Meyer: That's your wife. Saldivar: I was like, Randy, that's, that's me (both laugh). He was like, wait, what? He looks back, oh my god, I took a picture of you two (laughs). And we couldn’t stop dying. Just, we had all of these opportunities that we had met. And nothing. He wasn't attracted to me. I wasn't attracted to him. We had no clue. We even met each other. We're like, ah-ha. Cool. Okay. Bye. It wasn't until our friend Trish had decided when, you know after we were kind of starting the Cross-Cultural Center and stuff. It's, you know, let's create a, a student organization for Filipino-Americans or folks who were interested in the Filipino-American culture. Great. So she asked me to be on board. My friend Marvin, asked Randy to be on it, and her friend Katie. So it was the five of us. And we, we, that's when we literally first intentionally met each other. Like, oh, hey, okay. I thought of him as a little brother. I was like, cool (laughs), you know, whatever. And so then we would go to the Cross-Cultural Center, or the Multicultural Center to hold meetings just to hang out, you know? ‘Cause Alexis ended up being our advisor as well. So then we would ask him, okay, how do we, you know, how do we start this (student organization)? Or what are things that we need to do? You know, we ended up having our first GBM, you know, and, and saying, okay. So we started kind of building out the, the, the student org here and there. During that time there was probably about--we knew each other for about a good eight months by now. We just still friends. We just kil-, I don't even pay attention to him. He don't pay attention to me. We're just like, yeah, cool. Have you seen this movie? Cool. Have you seen this? Okay. Yeah. We're just hanging out. And then, masquerade ball was around the corner. And all of us were like, yeah, let's go. Let's go to masquerade ball. Woo! You know, let's just dress up and dance. And it was my friend Trish who was like, “So have you thought of, what do you think of Randy?” And I was like, what do you mean what do I think of Randy? “Like, you know, what do you think of him? Like, you think he's cute or something?” And I was like, “Uh, he's okay. I mean, he's nice.” Like she, I, you know, she's trying to plant seeds in my head. On the flip end, she's planting seeds on his end. Meyer: Oh. Saldivar: “So what do you think about Dee?” I was like, what! Meyer: One of those friends-- Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 16 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: Yeah. Yeah. She's like, I see something, but you both don't see it. So she was playing matchmaker. And so one time, we were supposed to all meet and go to, a GBM meeting, or we call FCC, Filipino Collegiate Collaborative. So this is where, all the schools across San Diego, USC (University of Southern California), UCSD (University of San Diego), San Diego State and us (CSUSM) were supposed to meet all the Filipino American organizations. So we worked together outside of the school to work with other student orgs, which was really cool. So we were supposed to have our meeting, and it was supposed to be me, Trish, and Randy. And Trish was like, “Oh no, I'm sick. I can't go, but if you two wanna go.” I'm like, okay (laughs). Literally, that's kind of how it ended up going. “Okay. So, you wanna go to like, masquerade ball together?” “Sure. Okay.” So it ended up kind of being our first date in a sense. And then from there, you know, we were kind of dating and-Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: Because we were still involved in, you know, Kamalayan Alliance. We were coming, as you could tell to the center, he would help out and volunteer a lot, you know, and he saw, you know, Alexis, he's like, “Hey, another Filipino. Yay!” So, you know, we all started kind of building the community and you know, we're spending more time together. He's helping out a lot. And then next thing you know, it's, I'm the one who asked him out (laughs). I was like, so, you know what's going on? (Meyer laughs) And he is like, hey, yeah. I was like, “So do you wanna go out or something?” And he looks at me and he's like, “Yeah, sure. Where do you want to eat?” (Meyer laughs) I was like, “What?” “Yeah. You said you wanna go out, so where do you want to eat?” I'm like, oh my god, you’re so dense. (laughs). I was like, no, do you, wanna be, you know, exclusive? He was like, “Oh yeah. Okay, cool.“ Meyer: Where do you want to eat? Right? Saldivar: He's like, uh, so this-- it tells you so much about his personality. We are so different from each other (laughs), you know, and, he's such a great support. He, when we talk about it, we laugh about it. I'm always the very type A business type of person behind the scenes. Let's get the logistics and stuff going. He's the PR (public relations) of it all. He can talk people's ear off, he can find people's stories, he can connect with them. And then once he does a connection here, here's Dee. And then, you know, I get all this stuff taken care of (laughs). So it was really cool. We've, we worked really well in tandem. And I, I'm surprised at the age that we were at, we were early twenties nobody knew we were dating. Meyer: Oh wow. Saldivar: We were very professional in a sense of where nobody knew in the student org or even sometimes in the Cross-Cultural Center that we were even together, we kept it very, professional. Didn't do the whole PDA (Public Display of Affection) thing. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: No. You know, we're not here to do that. We're here to serve our community. And I think at such a young age and stage of our relationship of being able to do that, helped us really kind of be able to be really good partners. In the sense where what we do here is for, you know, a different purpose versus what we do here. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 17 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Meyer: Right Saldivar: I think it was the one time (laughs) at a GBM, this is where the students really started growing. You know, we had almost forty to fifty members by the second, third year, and we had people come through the center and stuff. (laughs) When GBM, he went to go off to go get lunch and he is like, let me go grab something before the, the, the meeting and I'll see you. I'll be right back. And then he gave me a kiss. Everyone freaked out. They're like, oh, what? Meyer: Oh. Saldivar: They're like, what? (laughs) We’re like, what? They’re like what was that? (points, laughs), and we’re like, oh, y'all don't know yet? Like really a core small group of us. The ones right here knew, you know. Meyer: But everyone else. Saldivar: Everyone else, because I guess because they didn't hang out with us outside of the CrossCultural Center or at our house or when we went to the dinner and things like that. We really kept it. We, we didn't know we were that good at keeping it very separate. You know, when we go out to sushi or dinner, hang out at people's houses and we were, you know, completely different people. But we were in a school setting or the Kamalayan setting, we were very--we are officers, we are representatives of this, you know, this space. We need to be kind of, you know, professional. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So yeah. That moment that kiss happened, people were like, (gasps)? And we had people, no, you're lying. You're all lying to us. You just, no, you're trying to prank, someone was so sure we were probably, we were trying to just get a rise out of people. We're like, no, we've been together for like six months now. They're like, (gasps) no! (laughs). So it was, it was crazy. It was, that's how we ended up meeting, you know, he graduated in Kinesiology in 2009. Yeah. He--and what was nice is that in, he was also the president of Kamalayan, probably within the first two or three years. And the Cross-Cultural Center helped in creating a lot of the success of Kamalayan and where we had the first API (Asian Pacific Islanders) graduate ceremony. Meyer: Oh. Saldivar: Now that has been going on. And we used the center, oh my gosh, that was so crazy. (laughs). We had used the Cross-Cultural Center as a place to build the graduate, the, the planning of the graduate. And we also made the stoles. This is how we had no budget. So we went to Michael's (craft store) and bought the thickest red stole, I mean, red ribbon we could. Meyer: Oh yeah. Saldivar: And black puffy paint. Meyer: Oh no. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 18 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: And we're sitting there, (painting) 2005. Meyer: And that never looks even or clean. Saldivar: Oh no. It was a hot, ugly mess. (Meyer laughs) And you know, we put API grad and there's, you know we're trying to sit there and make it dry, so nothing's smearing. We had red ribbons everywhere and Alexis was like, what the heck is going on? I'm like, “We're making stoles!” (Both laugh) And he's like, oh boy. So I'm--yeah. A lot of the things that happened, like I said, the Cross-Cultural Center was an incubator. A lot of things was DIY (Do It Yourself). It was handmade. You had no budget. So what were we gonna do? You know, we had a lot of, thank goodness we had a lot of support from departments and different, areas with, other API folks who were like, yeah, we got budgets that we could go ahead and just hand over to you or, you know, we'll support you or sponsor you in this or sponsor you in that. So, oh, thank goodness for this community because I don't know if we would’ve got where we are today without really, the support of the school to see that there is a need and it wasn't coming up from the president or things like that. It was coming from the ground up. So that was really cool. Meyer: You were asking for what you needed, not having someone tell you. Yeah. Saldivar: Exactly. And they're like, oh, we--that's what made a, I think Cal State San Marcos such a unique school is that they listen to the people from the ground. It's not directives always coming from the top saying, hey, we need this, or you need to do this, or you need to do this. It's like, no, the students are saying something, how can we meet their needs? Type of thing. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So it's been really cool in seeing that dynamic versus a lot of other institutions that believe or think that, you know, this is what the students want, but not really listening to them. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: So yeah. So yeah, all in all, that's how me and Randy met. And we ended up getting married after I finished my master's program. And then now we have a child. Two of our other friends, Mike and Darlene met through, he was part of Kamalayan and she was a part of VSA, the Vietnamese Student Association. And we worked really well together, or we worked closely together and we ended up being, you know, in the Cross-Cultural Center as well. And so she ended up asking him out and he was like, “Sure, okay. I didn't know you liked me.” (Both laugh). And now they're together, married. And then other, there's another couple come Kamalayan Alliance that also was a part of the Cross-Cultural Center and they ended up doing, PCN together, Filipino Culture Night. Which was another thing the CrossCultural Center helped create and establishing a lot of that stuff too. And now they're married (laughs). So yeah, there's a lot of married couples coming out and just, you know, we're still really all in touch with each other. People have ended up, generations after us, one of our good friends Jael he was part of Kamalayan Alliance, I'm not sure if he was part of the board, but now he owns and runs his own polvorón company, called Papa's Polvorón. And where he's now has his--it started out as like a at home kitchen type of thing. And he was at the farmer's markets. Now he has his product in a lot of the Filipino stores, across the nation. So it's like, geez, (laughs). Meyer: Yeah. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 19 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: You know, it's really nice to see where all of the students and people who've been through the Cross-Cultural Center and where they are now. You know, and I think that's just one of the biggest rewards I see. Being a part of that community was like, wow, I was there to see y'all start like, “I don't know what I wanna do. I just wanna go and, eat all you can eat sushi.” To, now they're having families and having own businesses and doing great things and great work, you know? So Yeah. So yeah. That's how I met my husband (laughs). Long story short. Meyer: Well it's so intertwined with the story of the Center for you. So I think it's really cool the, you know. Yeah. Saldivar: When we, took our engagement photos we came back to the center, we came back to the campus because this has so much meaning for us. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know-Meyer: I'll add the pictures, to the file later. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: But, just so people know what you're talking about, the picture of you when you thought it was, like a conference and it was a surprise actually. Saldivar: Yeah. (laughs) Meyer: That’s that's really sweet. Yeah. What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing going forward as it coexist with these other identity-specific spaces? You said it's kinda like a support, an incubator, it helps kind of foster the activities of the other programs. Saldivar: Yeah. I think when, when it was in, during my time generation, that's what it was. Now, I mean, it's grown so much and where I, I want--in a sad way that I don't recognize it anymore, but that's a good thing. Because that means there has been growth and development and changes. And I'd rather see that than stay where it is stagnant-wise. What role it has now on the campus, I--I don't really know. Meyer: You've been off campus for awhile (laughs). Saldivar: I’ve been off campus for a while, so it's like, oh, I don’t know what it's gonna be. I mean, what they're doing now, it, it--and I want them to continue what they're doing: is to just continue to, to grow support, find changes. I mean, a lot of the things that I've seen is, you know, with their programming has changed. Which I think it's great, it's changing with the times and that's how all centers should be is, you know, they have to go with what's going on with the students. If they're not willing to change or, be flexible, then what's kind of, what's the purpose of the center? Meyer: Yeah. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 20 2023-11-13 �Diana Salvidar TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-14 Saldivar: You know, that's kind of the (laughs) thing I could say because I mean, I've been so removed. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: I mean, other than coming back and, you know, being like, “Yay. Hi everybody.” I'm like-Meyer: You haven't been hands-on with the center for a while. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: Of course, of course. Saldivar: Yeah. I'm, I'm the person that used to be here years ago (laughs). “No, don't call me Auntie, please!” (Both laugh) Meyer: And are there any other memories you wanna share that, um, like I know there were retreats that you guys (video cuts out, battery ran down, audio recording) Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 21 2023-11-13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saldivar, Diana. Interview transcript April 14th 2023. Description An account of the resource Diana Saldivar is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Communications, Sociology and Ethnic Studies. Saldivar worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2004-2007 and was also involved in the Asian Pacific Islander Student Society, Kamalayan Alliance, and with Associated Students Incorporated (student government). In her interview, Saldivar discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center provided her with a sense of belonging on campus and served as a second home. Saldivar explains how the center provided her with lifelong friendships, skills and connections that has helped her become the person she is today. Saldivar recounts how the CCC provided a safe space, allowing for conversations with others that are often deemed controversial, and how the center encouraged those to constantly seek knowledge. This oral history was created in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Diana Saldivar Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madeleine Meyer Geneva Martinot Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-14 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance California State University. Multicultural Programs Filipino Americans Human rights San Diego State University Student success Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) 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Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SaldivarDiana_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-14_transcript Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Madeleine Meyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Diana Saldivar OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SaldivarDiana_StanleySeth_2023-04-14.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Saldivar, Diana. Interview April 14th 2023. SC027-39 01:04:02 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance ; California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated ; San Diego State University ; California State University. Multicultural Programs ; Filipino Americans ; Student success ; Human rights Diana Saldivar Madeleine Meyer Video SaldivarDiana_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-14 1:|14(13)|32(10)|47(3)|59(10)|73(9)|92(14)|104(3)|133(8)|148(11)|164(15)|178(14)|202(11)|230(3)|259(11)|284(3)|297(6)|316(10)|334(4)|348(6)|363(4)|382(15)|404(11)|427(4)|443(13)|458(4)|481(6)|503(9)|523(11)|543(4)|554(3)|571(13)|584(12)|596(7)|615(16)|630(12)|644(6)|654(15)|682(5)|703(11)|717(13)|728(8)|744(4)|765(7)|776(17)|794(9)|812(9)|828(6)|848(11)|873(9)|888(8)|900(8)|919(13)|934(12)|949(15)|971(16)|990(13)|1009(8)|1031(9)|1046(18)|1065(6)|1080(6)|1103(11)|1121(9)|1148(6)|1152(15) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4ba35a3be1f188bd69a1d18341a5b736.mp4 Other video english 0 Childhood and Education Saldivar describes how she moved a lot and never had a solid group of friends due to her father's career in the military. She explains how she struggled navigating college as a first generation student. Saldivar started out at Palomar Community College, then California State University San Marcos and later moved onto San Diego State University for graduate school. Saldivar explains how she graduated during the recession and no one was hiring so she felt discouraged and had to take on volunteer work to maintain work experience. She also discusses what life was like growing up with parents who immigrated from the Philippines and China. Palomar Community College ; California State University San Marcos ; San Diego State University ; immigrant ; VA bill ; Military ; first generation ; childhood 0 780 Finding the Cross-Cultural Center and Getting Involved In Associated Students Incorporated Saldivar explains how the Cross-Cultural Center was very small and almost hidden amongst the campus. She explains how faculty encouraged her to apply for a position for Associated Students Incorporated (ASI, student governance). Saldivar explains how the Cross-Cultural Center exposed her to faculty that looked like her and represented her despite the campus being predominately white. Cross-Cultural Center ; Associated Students Incorporated ; representation ; identity 0 1205 Working and building up the CCC Saldivar explains how she started working at the Multicultural Center (now called Cross-Cultural Center) and helped to build the foundations of the center. She explains how in only three years the center was able to grow and become recognized on campus. The center was working with various other campus organizations to share resources and create appropriate spaces for students. Saldivar explains how the center impacted people within their identity. multi-cultural center ; start up ; building ; Pride Center ; LGBT ; Womens Center ; Asian Center ; Cross-Cultural Center 0 1690 CCC Began Growing Saldivar discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center began to expand and its new location allowed the center to become more visible to students. Programing for the center was created such as the Peer Educator Program, Multicultural Mondays and Dinner Dialogues. These programs provided a space and opportunity for students to explore, understand and discuss identities. Peer Educator Program ; Multicultural Mondays ; Dinner Dialogues ; identities ; representation ; LGBTQ ; Religion 0 2282 How the CCC Helped Saldivar Saldivar feels like her courses helped her identify who she was and understand how her background has shaped her as an individual, but the CCC is what allowed her to put those realizations into practice. The CCC allowed her to realize she must live intentionally and how to really make an impact in peoples lives. The CCC provided her with the skills she would use later on in her career. 0 2744 How Saldivar Met Her Husband Saldivar explains how she and Randy, her husband, met through the Cross-Cultural Center and ended up getting married. Saldivar reflects on the programs that she and Randy worked on for the CCC. Husband ; San Diego State ; University of San Diego ; University of Southern California ; Filipino American Organization 0 3191 Working Dynamics Between Saldivar and Her Husband Saldivar explains how she and Randy maintained a professional relationship while working at the center. She describes how they compliment one another and help one another become successful in their work. Kamalayan Alliance 0 3399 Asian Pacific Islander First Graduating Ceremony Saldivar discusses how the CCC helped the Asian Pacific Islander Club recognize their first graduating class. She explains how the lack of a budget forced the CCC and Asian Pacific Islander Club to get creative. Saldivar expresses her gratitude towards the university for always listening to the wants and needs of their students. Asian Pacific Islander Club ; Asian Pacific Islander graduation 0 3557 Impact of CCC on Others Saldivar discusses impact of the CCC on students and their academic success. She expresses the joy it brings to her when she sees how much her and her community has grown due to the center. Filipino ; student success 0 3723 Role of CCC Saldivar discusses how much the center has grown and how its programs are focused on the current needs of the students. 0 Video Diana Saldivar is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Communications, Sociology and Ethnic Studies. Saldivar worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2004-2007 and was also involved in the Asian Pacific Islander Student Society, Kamalayan Alliance, and with Associated Students Incorporated (student government). In her interview, Saldivar discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center provided her with a sense of belonging on campus and served as a second home. Saldivar explains how the center provided her with lifelong friendships, skills and connections that has helped her become the person she is today. Saldivar recounts how the CCC provided a safe space, allowing for conversations with others that are often deemed controversial, and how the center encouraged those to constantly seek knowledge. Madeleine Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Diana Saldivar at California State University San Marcos for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Friday, April 14th, 2023, and the time is eleven fifty-seven. I'd like to start with asking you a little bit about yourself. Where did you grow up and what was your early life like? Diana Saldivar: Ooh, that's a long question (both laugh). That's gonna be a long answer. How long do we have? Um, I actually was born here in San Diego, California on a military, one of the military bases. I don't know exactly which one. My mom forgot to give me those details, but all I know is that the hospital is now torn down. So I know it doesn't exist anymore, but I assume it was either 32nd or one of the Navy bases down south. Because I didn't know, we lived in North Park for a little bit, from there, because my dad's military career, we moved several places across, the West Coast. So I've been to Fallon, Nevada, San Francisco, Treasure Island, back to San Diego, Hawaii. And then once my dad retired, he retired at Camp Pendleton here in Oceanside. So I ended up being around probably fourteen, fifteen (years old). So right in the middle of my middle school, high school years is when I came to kind of be more of a, a transplant to San Diego. So--it was definitely still different from me, (laughs) for me from moving from San Francisco to a really big, you know, metropolitan city with a lot of diversity to Oceanside, which was very (laughs), in development still. Meyer: Um-Hm. Saldivar: So that was a big challenge. And then also because of me moving around to so many schools, I think I went to eight or nine schools by the time I was fifteen. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: So it wasn't like I grew up having solid friends, grew up with them during grade school and things like that. It was always a lot of transition. So me entering high school, middle school when everybody has friends since they were like second grade in kindergarten, that was very different for me. Fortunately, I was able to find my own community. I was able to find other, military transplants. So we just kind of found each other in a sense. So, I ended up graduating high school at Vista High, in 2000, oh (both laugh) that's so long ago. We just even had our 20th, annual, reunion. It was delayed because of the pandemic (COVID-19). Meyer: Right Saldivar: So it was 21(st annual reunion), which made it feel so much worse (laughs). So I graduated in Vista High and, I didn't really know what to do. I mean, I was kind of one of those, I was a first generation, what do you call it? Immigrant child who, my parents did some college, but it was more like vocational college. They didn't really understand the full traditional college career, how to get there. So I had a lot of high school counselors. They kind of helped with, you know, what are your thoughts about going into, you know, college, have you thought of, you know, applying and things like that. And it never really crossed my mind. I was just kind of going as it goes. But I ended up applying to San Diego State, Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos and one other college. Because of my dad's military career, he was able to get the GA or, the VA Bill (Veterans Affairs, often referred as GI Bill). So I was able to use it as his dependent, which was nice because affording college was just out of the question and having that nice little package was so good (laughs). So I had to stay in California, so I was very limited to where I could go. And I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I was like, you know, “Let's just go to Cal State San Marcos. It's close to home (laughs).” You know, I didn't really understand the whole, let's research and let's look at this and that and things. I'm just like, okay, I'll just go to college and put, I don't know, well non-major and stuff like that. And then, you know, I ended up being here, started 2000, dropped--got kicked out (both laugh) 2002 because I didn't meet the math requirement (laughs). I'm not sure if they still have that here, but as an undergrad you had to meet an English and math requirement. I definitely met the English because I did IB (International Baccalaureate) English, like honors English, but I was terrible at math, and I don't know why I was taking math classes at seven o'clock in the morning (Meyer laughs). So that was terrible setup for me. So then I ended up going to Palomar Community College for a couple years to get myself back on track, doing the, IGETC (Intersegmental General Education Transfer Curriculum) program. And probably by 2004 I found myself back here at Cal State San Marcos, you know, with a brand new focus, more (of an) understanding of what I wanted to do. Finally declared a major and two minors, like a crazy person. Like why would I wanna be the school more? I don't know. I ended up then graduating in the winter, or yet fall of 2007, but I walked, spring 2008, which was great because it felt really nice to kind of be able to represent my family, kind of being the first gen(eration) going across. And then it was like, what do I do now? And then I ended up going to San Diego State for my grad program, but that in itself wasn't even planned. Meyers: Um-Hm. Saldivar: This is kind of how my life has been. Meyers: Yeah. Saldivar: It just doesn't get planned. It just happens. Which is probably not a great (laughs) way to live life sometimes, unless you have a goal. It was my mentor, Dilcie Perez from the Cross-Cultural Center, or actually just kind of the student activities area and where she looked at me and she's like, “Did you ever think about making this a career?” And I was like, “What, I could get paid for this?” (both laugh). So that was kind of pretty much how it all happened in, the three months before I was graduating, I went to a info session about higher education programs and kind of figuring out that you could work with students, these are things that you could do to build your, your career in, in the collegiate setting. And I was like, oh, okay. I'll apply to of course, a California state school because that's how I can afford (laughs). And you know, still on my dad's, VA. Ended up getting in the San Diego State program. And so right after, the fall semester, I had a semester off because of the way that the, the, the calendar, schedule was laid out. So I had some work experience. So I ended up getting some work experience at the--oh my gosh. St. Paul? No, not St. Paul's. Oh my gosh. Father Joe's. Oh, my I’m like why I’m saying St. Paul's. Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. Saldivar: The Father Joe's Villages. I ended up, being a vocational counselor there for a couple months. And then I moved on to do my grad program at San Diego State. And then this was the longest title ever. Let me, let me see if I can get it right. Masters (laughs) of Arts in Higher Education with a Specialization in Student Affairs Administration. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: Yeah (both laugh). You should see what it looks like on the degree (Meyer laughs). It's like, my gosh, what did it say? I'm like, just higher ed. Just, just say higher ed. Meyer: Just put et cetera at the end. Saldivar: Right. And (both laugh) everything's an acronym. So yeah, I went to San Diego State, got do-- done, and then I graduated in 2010, when the economy was just (blows raspberry, gives thumbs down gesture). Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: So it was a terrible time-- Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: To graduate because education was literally redlined. Nobody was hiring. People were, either being laid off or decreased (furloughed) and things like that. So I, it was, it was a difficult time because, you know, I grew up with that mentality, especially that, first gen mentality that if you go to college and you get these degrees, you're going to get a good job at the end. You're gonna get paid well, you're gonna be able to buy a house and all these other things, which is a very, you know, generational (laughs), you understand. We're like, yeah, here, we're now still paying rent. Meyer: Yeah Saldivar: So it was, it was very, it was very humbling. At the same time it was, it was an eye-opener to the reality of like, this is not really the American dream that I was fed to believe in a sense. If that'll, you know, if you're educated, you'll be much more successful, whatever that looks like in that terminology. I would say at least, probably 80 to 85% of our class did not end up in higher ed. Meyer: Um-Hm. Saldivar: They only got in if they were already doing an internship and then was already kind of luckily able to find funding to continue that internship into a part-time or, uh, what do you call it? A contracted job? So it wasn't even like they were full on (jobs). It was, you know, you're, we could, we could help keep you on for another year. And it was like yearly basis until they finally, leveled out and then got the full-time benefit stuff. So that's what happened to a lot of my, cohort, either they all ended up going home to where they, came from and then going into nonprofit or some type of K-12 (Kindergarten-twelfth grade) education prep program. So we tried to find jobs, or I definitely tried to find jobs that could still, you know, help hone in my skills that are transferrable to get back into higher ed. But it took a long time to do that. So, I mean that's kind of more of my, educational professional side (laughs) about me. I guess, on a more personal side, I'm the first born of two. So I have a younger brother, two years younger than me. I, you know, grew up, like I said, all over the place. My parents are, my mom is from the Philippines and then my dad's Chinese. So he's from China, Hong Kong. They both immigrated to the states probably when they were fifteen, sixteen. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: Yeah. So they were like teenagers. So they still kind of had deep cultural ties to their homelands, but then also was at that point in where they were at school, where they could become more acclimated to their American culture and things like that. So I kind of, I wanted to be, say like, I'm one and a half, two generation kind of in a sense where they understood some of, you know, American norms and values and things like that, but at the same time had that duality of, how do we stay culturally close to ourselves and things like that. So it, growing up I still kind of, you know, butt heads in, in a sense (laughs) with my parents. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: Like, well, that's not how I feel doing that now. Meyer: Yeah Saldivar: You know? I mean, even my grandma had immigrated later on and so, I had a lot of my family in the Bay Area. The San Francisco, San Jose, or Stockton area. And my Chinese grandma, R.I.P. (Rest In Peace) love her to death. She was very, very strict Chinese ma--grandma. And where she tried to marry me off so (laughs), I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. (laughs). I mean, I was too young to understand what was going on, but at least my mom was like, “We are not doing that!” Meyer: Oh my God. Saldivar: Yeah (laughs). Meyer: How, how old were you? Saldivar: I was probably about seven or eight when my grandma was grooming-- Meyer: Oh-- Saldivar: Me to, you know, prepare for like, have you met this child? Or, you know, I have a friend's son who's on my oh. What the heck? (Meyer laughs) No! Meyer: Your mom is like, “We're not, (both talking) we’re not doing this—" Saldivar: Yeah, exactly. We're not exactly (laughs). Meyer: Oh my gosh. Saldivar: Yeah. It was kind of neat because my, my--the thing is because my dad is a firstborn male of the family. So he's spoiled and everything and oh, since I'm the first daughter, you know, we have to make sure she's married off well. And then my, my brother who's actually considered the first-born male of the firstborn son gets so much better benefits and perks than I do. So even though I'm the first born (unintelligible) oh no, you're a female. But my son--my brother still gets like, everything. Meyer: And he's the baby. So it's, yeah. (Saldivar laughs). Oh man. Saldivar: Yeah. So that's kind of just a little bit about me. I know that was, a real deep dive into a lot of stuff. Meyer: No, that's great. That's great. Um, yeah, I, well that answers my question about your educational journey too. Which is perfect. Saldivar: There you go. Meyer: Um, and then I was just going to ask, how did you first become aware of the Cross-Cultural Center when you came onto Cal State San Marcos’ campus? Saldivar: That’s a, (laughs) that's actually a really good question. Um— Meyer: How did you wander in? Yeah. Saldivar: Yeah. And I think that's always the funny thing is people don't know about it. I think what was hard was when I was here on campus and versus like how it is now, it wasn't visible. Meyer: Oh OK. Saldivar: You--it was not even like an indicator. There was no signage, there was not like, how the Veterans Center is literally right there in the middle of campus or, you know, the Student Center is right there. The, the Cross-Cultural Center, or what it was called formerly is the Multicultural Center was in a back office kind of like this. It was hidden in Craven Hall (now Administrative Building), fourth floor way in. So when you walk in, it's not right there. It's like you have to go halfway through, then down this tiny corridor and then it's a door. Meyer: Um-Hm. Saldivar: And it's, you think, okay, either it's a janitor’s closet or it's where they keep all the, um, what do you call it, the computer stuff and everything— Meyer: Yeah Saldivar: Like a storage closet. You're just like, “Where is this place? Am I in the right place?” And (they’re) like, “Keep going down. (laughs) You're following the right area”. Like we had signs and arrows and everything. In different bright colors to make it feel like it's okay, (Meyer laughs) it's a safe space. You're coming to, you're know, we're not going to kidnap you or anything. (both talking) Meyer: This is not a meat locker. Saldivar: Right, exactly. You're going to make it out alive. Meyer: Yeah, yeah. Saldivar: The way I ended up getting there, funny enough was I was just going through--when I returned back to school, my focus was just get my degree and go, you know, I wasn't even thinking about being involved, you know, student life, things like that. That wasn't even on my radar, until I started taking community, what do you call it? Sociology classes. So my major was Communications and I minored in Sociology and Ethnics Studies and my Ethnic Studies teacher --I am terrible with names (laughs). I see her face Dr. Elsie, (whispers: Elsie), no, Elsa, Elsie (Dr. Sharon Elise), something like that. Meyer: Uh-Hm. Salvidar: And she--was talking about, you know, race and, racial identity and things like that. And so she was very involved in the school, and something came up in where there’s a position for ASI, our Associated Student Inc. for a Director of Diversity and Cultural Events or, something like that. I'm terrible remember(ing), those kind of details years back. But yeah, it was with ASI and I, so it was a Cultural and and Diversity Coordinator. So it'd be in charge of all the events regarding, you know, student orgs ,and things like that. So she know would talk about in this class and she was like, you know, this is available if you guys are interested and stuff. And then she personally took me aside and she's like, “I think you should go for this Dee.” I was like, “really?” She was like, “I think you might be good for it. You should try it out.” I was like, “Okay, cool.” That was my thing. (laughs) I was just like, okay, people see something in me, I guess I'll try it. It wasn't anything like, oh, I have so wanted this job, or I should be interested. It's like, okay, let me just fill it out and stuff and you know, and ask questions, you know, your personal identity. What do you think you would bring on campus? Why is cultural diversity important to you and, and to the students? Those are kind of some of the things I remember. And, and you know, I was filling it out, just kind of taking a lot of the experience. I grew up, you know, being a military child and being in San Francisco and other places and having to adjust to those. It's just, you know, feeling--just more of creating a belonging on campus. Meyer: Um-Hm. Salvidar: Because especially during that time, there was not a lot of students of color on, on campus. It was very predom-- we called it the pre-primarily, PWI. Primarily a White Institution (Predominately White Institution). That was, what do you call it? Oh geez, I forgot what you call it. Commuter (student body). Yeah. So it was very big commuter student, there was no student life on campus. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: It wasn't as lively as it was, is now or a couple years before. So I applied for it. I think I was the only one (laughs) that applied for it because I don't think, because ASI wasn't even really built up either. We were such a young campus. And so I interview it. I ended up being on the board and so that was kind of my shoe into student activities and student involvement. And that's where I got to meet other people, meet other campus organizations, realized, oh my gosh, there's much more to on-campus than going to class. Meyer: Right. Saldivar So from there I ended up, you know, having to--part of that position allowed me to network and coordinate with a lot of different folks on campus, which was great. And that's when I caught the attention of Alexis (Montevirgen, second Associate Director of Multicultural Programs). Who was a part of the Multicultural Center at a student affair, student activities department. And he would be attending some of the stuff that ASI would be putting on. And he's like, “So have you thought of, you know, maybe wanting to move into student, you know, affairs and activities? You know, I have a position that'd be coming up,” you know, but because with ASI it was only a one-year thing. So it wasn't like you could continue. I mean, I could continue on if I wanted to, but, you know it was just my foot on the door just trying to see what, it was about. And he's like, “Yeah, you know, we actually have a center that you could be a peer educator and all this stuff come by. Let's talk. You know, I'd love to see what you'd be interested in doing for us.” And, and, it was kind of amazing to see a male Filipino-- Meyer: Um-Hm Saldivar: Faculty, staff member on campus. Because it was like, wait, there's somebody that looks like me and he's interested in what I have to do and talk about. So it was kind of really neat to kind of see him as a mentor and a friend and somebody that looks like me, but could understand also culturally, you know, where we come from. What was interesting was I hadn't really explored my Filipino identity as much, because I wasn't really exposed to it other than my family. And so I felt more closely to my Chinese American identity. So him being Filipino and being like, hey, you know, I see you, let’s work together. Let's figure out what we could do. I felt like it was an opportunity for me not just to, you know, be a part of that center, but also to help kind of selfishly myself, kind of, I learned who I am. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, in this role. So after I did ASI for the one year, they're like, “So you want to continue?” I'm like, “Actually I want to move over there (points, laughs).” So they, they always laugh because Sarah Gallegos was my supervisor for ASI. So her and Alexis, you know, would work together and stuff and she's like, “You stole my person (laughs).” So they would always joke about that and everything. “Stop stealing my people!” Meyer: They're poaching. Saldivar: Right. Exactly. He literally just straight up poached me. He's like, so you interested. So that's how I ended up being a part of the Multicultural Center as, it was, it was a different title at that time. It was, I, I don't know if it was ambassador or, because it wasn't even called peer educator at that time. It was just kind of like, I was his assistant because the peer educator program hadn't, hadn't even started yet. We were in, he was in the— the works of actually building it. So I kind of came on more as a, as like an executive assistant to him helping him organize what is the peer education supposed to look like? What are some programs we could start doing? Things like that. So looking at more of the administrative logistic planning of it before even, just even being a student. So it was kind of nice because, I was able to do some of my work experience to like, hey, you know, let's get my type A personality going here. Yeah. So (laughs). Yeah. So that's how I fell into it. And I was there for almost two and a half, three years. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: Yeah. I continued on with it. He was just like, yeah, you're staying on. I'm like, okay. (laughs). Meyer: Aw. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: Well, it sounds like you were really essential to the early space. Saldivar: I want to say I am, I guess. I mean, I was just in it because I felt like it was such a great opportunity to create a space for students who, didn't feel like they belonged on campus. And just to be with great minds who want to think big and create a culture and a system of, what do you call it? Just, you know, integrate a lot of things on campus that wasn't there. And it was, I felt like it was one of, what do you call it? Now, I'm looking back like I'm, when I was young I was like, “I’m in it. This is fun. Yay!” Just go ahead and do this because, you know, I just want to be part of it and I'm now looking back like, I was in an incubator. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: I literally was in a startup not realizing it was a startup. So yeah. I was kind of looking back like, oh dang, (laughs). I did all that. Oh— Meyer: You were at the beginning of something really big. Yeah. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: So it sounds like the Cross-Cultural Center, or the Multi-Cultural Center as it was called, was a lot smaller when you started. Saldivar: Oh my gosh, yes (both laugh). Meyer : How would you say it was different when you started and when you left? Saldivar: Oh my gosh. We had people (laughs), the campus community actually knew what the Cross-Cultural Center was. So that was really, it was so interesting to see within the two-and-a-half, three years how much it had grown. When I started it was just me and Alexis in this small little room, red couches, you know, we had some posters up. We had a bookcase full of just some, you know, books that we called “our library” (laughs). Now that, I think have a huge like, depository of information that people can have resources to. But at that time we didn't even have this library, so it was-- Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: I know it's hard to imagine (laughs). So there wasn't like a lot of resources focused on DEI (Diversity and Equity) work, you know, even it was even called DEI work at that time. It was just called, you know , you know, diversity and multiculturalism. So a lot of the lingo has even changed from the time I was there to now. I think what, I mean, just breaking it down to even certain years, the first year was just building, just building a foundation, getting down what is the Multi-Cultural Center about what’s its place on campus and how can we be in collaboration and community with all the other centers that were even being established. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So it was nice that it was a really good time for the Cross-Cultural Center, Women's Center, um, the LGBT (Lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, and transgender) Center, the Pride Center, all those centers kind of working together to build each other up. You know, we knew that it was important to have these centers, but we didn't wanna have just one centralized one that filled everything. Its like, no, we need to really, I don't wanna say--segment them. But we, they did needed to be segmented because there's all different sorts of needs for each one. But we also wanted to work together as, you know, we are here together as a whole but specifically they could help you with these certain things. You know. So we were, that was such a great time in where we didn't, we weren't fighting for resources and I think still they're not fighting for resources, so, which is good. So we started in Craven Hall, the small little area, and I think what really helped was just having students come and just hang out and know there's a space for them. Yeah. It ended up being a lot of API (Asian Pacific Islander) students of course. So, you know, it kind of, it was hard to get that stigma off for a while that's like, “Oh, that's the Asian Center.” It's like, no, we're actually open to a lot more people. But it just happened to be a lot of Asians in here. Meyer: You're not the first person who said that. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: I’ve heard that a few times. Saldivar: Yeah. I know Floyd is still dealing with that. (both talking) Meyer: Yeah, Floyd mentioned that. Saldivar: I’m sorry, I'm so sorry (laughs). Myere: No— Saldivar: Because what, what was nice about the, the, the Multicultural Center or when it changed to the Cross-Cultural Center was that it was a nice incubator for student organizations to start too. There was, since there's no space for folks, there's no space to grow. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: And no space to, to create communities. And so that's kind of what happened with the Cross-Culture Center--well, I like Cross-Cultural Center, but it's Multicultural Center--back then Multicultural Center (laughs) was, it was an incubator for, for student orgs (organizations). So Kamalayan Alliance actually started from there. The Filipino organization that me, and actually my husband was a part of the, the found founding group. Yeah. So we founded that and it's crazy to see how far they are. And I was, oh god, 20 something years later. Oh, that makes me feel old. And they're like, “Oh yeah, 26th anniversary.” I'm like, “has it been 26 years?” Meyer: You're like, can we say 15 maybe? Saldivar: Can we just say anniversary? Just, just leave the number out. Meyer: Yeah (both laugh). Saldivar: It's crazy to see how many generations have gone through that. I know--what do you call, APSA? The Asian Pacific Student Society? The Vietnamese group. I know we also helped, and this was later on also, you know, the Black Student Union, things like that. And kind of just developing and growing and finding spaces to find each other. And then being able to create that community. And then if they needed to go off and do their own thing, that was fine too. But we just were happy that, hey, people found each other through here and they were able to do something and create action. So that was kind of a really, something that I hold dear to my heart is that there was a space for students to do that and to find friendships and god, I don't know how many of them got married to each other. Meyer: Aw. Saldivar: (laughs) There’s a lot of people that are like, oh, you're still together. We're still best friends and now y'all have kids. And it's crazy how much the, the, that space had, impacted so many people so many years later. Meyer: Wow. Yeah. Saldivar: So I guess, so what else happened there? I mean, there's just so much (laughs). We did move three times, the time I was there, so it was nice that they realized this space is too small for us. They ended up, the main office ended up taking note of how many students were coming in a day. So then they could show to, I don't know, the chancellor, the provost, I still don't understand the hierarchy. And I'm a student and I'm in higher ed(ucation). And I was like, what (laughs) You know, they're like, there's a need here. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: You see what's happening is that these students are coming in, they're using the space, they're doing this, this, this, and this. So they were provide--so us, us students just hanging out and chilling and doing whatever we're doing there. They were using us, as I won’t saying using us. But, you know, they were using us as a case study saying, “Hey, this is something important to us. Look what's happening. We need a bigger space.” And so what was nice is that through, I think between 2005, five and six or six or six or seven, we ended up moving us to the bottom floor of the Craven Hall. Or was it the first floor? It's one of the, the lower ends. Which was nice because not only was it semi-visible to, the students now, because people would have to walk by the center to get to the one stop. And we were in front of that really nice, painted mural. But they also, it was a bigger space. It was an awkward space, but it was bigger. It was this weird triangle and were like, how are we gonna fit anything? So it was really weird, like sectioned off stuff. It was weird. But what was nice is that because of being more visible people were able to see, “Hey, wait, what's going on in there? Oh, that looks cool.” Then we were able to even promote more of our programs and be like, hey, have you guys heard of this? Or, you know, here's a flyer, here's A-frames. Things like that. The red couches still, still came with us because the red couches came (both laugh) wherever we went. Everybody knew us by the red couches. I think, that was really one of the key things that brought a lot of students in, because you know, I mean, before we just had-- Meyer: Benches Saldivar: Benches. And basic chairs. And it was not comfortable. It didn't feel welcoming. People like, “Hey, you wanna take a nap? We got some red couches.” People just pass out there next thing (Meyer laughs) you know, they made it a home. You know. Other things that happened in there was when a lot of programming was starting to be developed. So I was there as the assistant for about six months until the new semester kicked in. And me and Alexis had come up, helped develop the peer educator program. So the peer educator program consisted of four peer educators. I was kind of the main lead one. Jay (Franklin) was hired on as, the LGBTQ peer educator. And then there was Brittany, which I forgot her, what her specific one was. And then there was Stephanie who was like spiritual and religious. So we were kind of sectioned off into certain areas of our expertise to kind of help reach out to those groups. At that time it kind of worked because it was such a small population of the students, we could do that. As time has gone on, they just made 'em all peer educators and they were just kind of more cross trained in everything and anything. And whoever had those expertise would be kind of referred to. So it became more of a referral system than it was like, “Oh, you go to Jay because he's specifically this identity.” But it was great because we were able to all really learn from each other. Oh yeah. And then there was Cher, how can I forget, I forgot Cher. Cher is fun. Cher just, her (laughs) demeanor was so different, she was, very introverted, but once you got to know her, oh, she had the most sassiest mouth ever. And I'm just like, “Cher! We can't say that!” (Both laugh) But she was great. She, we, we came really close. And I think that's what I love about being in that peer educator program that we became really close. You know, we were all in it brand new. First of all, we were all students of color, so we're like, oh my god, there's more you know (laughs). And it was a great learning opportunity for all of us. So the things that we didn't know or understand, it was a safe space for us to explore that. So as peer educators, you know, we came up with some programming for the students. So we did things, and it kind of kind of all organically came together. You know, one, one of the things that we all worked on was called Multicultural Mondays. So on Mondays, once or every twice a month, I forgot what days.(laughs). There was a, you know, a certain schedule to it. We would, look at certain identities or things that would be meaningful for the students to wanna explore. So just kind of added programming to it. One of the things that I love that I hold dear to my heart was one of the programs we did called “Dinner Dialogues.” That was a very pricey program, but it worked (laughs). I'm like, “Do we have a budget?” (Both laugh) I didn't know what that was. I'm just like, “Can I have money for this?” Meyer: Well, Jay was saying, getting people in with food always worked. Saldivar: Oh gosh. Yeah. We ended up having a fridge and a microwave, but until we moved down to the, to the second floor. So yeah. That's one of things. Like we got food, we got pizza because, the campus was a food desert. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: We had nothing other than the Dome (food services originally operated by San Diego State University’s Aztec Shops). And the Dome was one of, first of all kind of expensive, and two, it was gross (both laugh). It was, oh. Oh no. So one of the things that we came up with called Dinner Dialogues, and it was a really great, I wanna say experience of how that organically happened as a program. It was just a bunch of students, hanging out in the Cross-Cultural Center past four o'clock, which was very rare because nobody wanted to be on campus past two. Usually the classes ended at two, you were gone. But these students felt safe. They felt home. They felt like, this is where I want to be. So we all ended up just getting food. I think this was when Chick-fil-A opened and we all got free, what do you call it? Chicken sandwich passes. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So we all went got like (laughs), thirty-five sandwiches. Oh, it was crazy. And yeah, we all sat there, we're just all eating. And we started talking about-- it was my, my good friend Jacob Dansler, he was, Black male and it was some of us and we were all, you know, all from different backgrounds and stuff. And we were talking about some of the challenges that we've had as a person of color or what it mean to be a man of color, or a woman of color or, you know, LGBQ person of color. And it was really cool to kind of just sit there and have that kind of dialogue with each other and learn and be able to ask questions that were, I wouldn't say in, in a way that we didn't feel like we were being judged for asking these questions. It was a very safe space and a space for learning and, and feeling, you know, we actually have a lot more in common than we realized. And people were like, you know, we need to make this a program. This is cool. I would love to have these kind of spaces where we could talk about these things like this. And so that's where Dinner Dialogues ended up coming out and we're like, yeah, free meal, but at the same time, let me talk with you about things that maybe we don't have these opportunities to talk about all the time . So it was really great. That program kicked off really well and we had ended up having, I think it was for two years until I actually ended up leaving. And then I don't know what happened if it continued or if it morphed and changed ‘cause it always changes with people who come in. But yeah, I think that was one of really one of the main things that kicked off there. And then Jay, because he was the LGBTQ peer educator, he also was able to bridge a lot of the communities together and start, start planning out the Pride Center. And so that was kind of really nice in where the, the Multicultural Center was the hub of creating more and building more and growing out. So while he was there, we worked together in supporting not only the, oh gosh, LGBT group, but then also, okay, how are we gonna get a space for these students as well? So that was a really big achievement for Jay and for the Cross-Cultural Center in that sense. And it was nice that we were able to support each other in building those communities. You know, mine was Kamalayan, his was-- Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, the pride, oh, we call it, I think Britney was helping with the BSU (Black Student Union) part, things like that. So we were all there to support each other, support the students and just, I don't know, we were just doing it because we wanted to. It's just ‘cause we had the passion for it and we loved it. I don't think we—it was like fully intentional what we were doing. And until we're like, oh crap, look what we did (laughs). Meyer: Yeah. You wanted to create a space for you and the people on campus and it just kept being a space. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: That's great. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: All right. Saldivar: I know, I think I've-- there's so much. I hope I'm catching everything (laughs). Meyer: No, you're, you're actually answering some of the questions before I even ask 'em, which is great-- (both talking) Saldivar: Oh, perfect. Okay good. Meyer: Yeah. How did it, how did the Cross-Cultural Center help you develop and express your cultural identity? Saldivar: Oh gosh. I think it made me, I think it was, it was, that was just one of the many layers upon my education studies here. Because in my communications major, and because minoring in sociology and ethnic studies, those classes helped me really look internally of who I was, what my identities meant, how they came across to, to the students, to the people that I work with. You know, really being able to put all that theory and then the Cross-Cultural Center allowed me to put it into practice. Oh god, I sound old (laughs). Meyer: No. Saldivar: Being able to put those together. I'm like, ah, makes me (unintelligible). Meyer: No that's, that's a great way to put it. Yeah. Saldivar: Yeah. And I think that helped me a lot in regards to the development of who I was becoming and who I am now. You know, coming into a college, like I said, you know, first gen(eration) Chinese, Filipino-American, I'd like, what does that, what did that mean to me? You know, even when I, I went into college, I didn't even know, I didn't even know that I was considered first gen. I was just like, yeah, I'm going to college because everybody says I should, or, you know, my parents weren't able to go and they said I should go, so I'm gonna go, you know, you just don't have that frame of reference until you get into a space. They're like, “Oh, are you the first one to go in your family? Oh, so you’re the first gen.” Wait, what, what does that mean? So, and so, you know, not realizing there's the support systems and things like that to help you and understand and develop that. And I think that's what really helped me was with that Cross-Cultural Center is to be--is to meet not only my community and people and friends, lifelong friends, who’re gonna help me, you know, be where I am today. But also meeting the mentors and the folks who do the work and how they've helped me understand more of, I guess the practice and, and the acknowledgement of like, it's okay to be uncomfortable. You know, it's, it, it's it, you have to be uncomfortable with the un-- you have to be comfortable with the uncomfortable, you know, these are things that I don't know, and it's okay not to know. You know, you're gonna move into certain spaces where you're gonna feel uncomfortable and how do you unpackage that? How do you take that and make it into a learning opportunity? And that's one thing that Dilcie Perez has-- she taught me throughout my time being there . She was such a great guidance and mentor for me that I give her kudos to everything about what I do with the work that I do. I remember when I was asked to return back for the 15th-year anniversary of the Cross-Cultural Center, and they asked me and Jay to be speakers, I was like, “Oh, good lord, what am I supposed to talk about?” (both laugh) There's so much to talk about! And it took me a while to realize what I wanted to say. And it came back in, to the fact of being intentional. And that always stuck with me. The one thing that Dilcie always said to me, she was like, what's your intentions on what you know, of what you're doing? Why are you doing this? Meyers: Um-Hm. Salvidar: So I wasn't just doing something for the sake of doing it, but just to understand, you know, is there an impact? What are the consequences? What is the bigger picture that you're trying to achieve? Even (Former Dean of Students, Gregory) Toya was a really great, mentor and where he asked, “What are the students learning outcomes?” I was like, students what (laughs)? What, what? He's like, yeah. Why are we putting on this? Why are you putting on this project? Or why are you putting on this program? What do you want the students to learn? So that really gave me a great foundation and understanding of, why am I doing this? Just, am I doing it for the sake of doing it? Is it self-serving, or is it really here for the students? And being kind of in a, in a selfish (selfless?) teaching moment. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So I, I wanna say that the Cross-Cultural center really helped me build, you know, a framework or a lens of how I move forward in doing whatever I do or move, as I grow up, you know, it's like, oh my gosh, it made me mature (laughs)! Meyer: They gave you a little toolkit with all the stuff you-- Salvidar: Right. Meyer: You needed for adult life. Saldivar: Exactly. And I, and I thank them for that. ‘Cause now that I'm, you know, now in kind of their space. In their spot. It's so weird to have that flip in where I was looking for mentors who look like me or who I could connect to. But now I'm in that space and where I'm the mentor and where I'm reaching out to students say, “Hey, I see you. Let me, you know, I'm here for you. If you need a space or someone to talk to, I'm here.” You know, and it's so weird to be in that odd spot (laughs) right now, but it's because of them that they were such great models by example that I now have those skills and that toolkit to be like, okay, you know what? I know what it feels like to be in that spot. Let me help you get to where you wanna be. Let me help you unpackage what's going on with your lives and things like that. You know, just an example was a couple weeks ago I had a grad student, who identifies as Chinese American reach out to me. And she's like, I wanna be in where you are at in doing marketing and communication. But how do I, you know, deal with the cultural, challenges with my parents who want me to be in the medical field. Meyer: Um-Hm. Salvidar: And I was like, oh girl, let's talk (both laugh)! You know? And so it was really nice and, and I would say the experience of being, being able to talk to her and her just at the end feeling so relieved and feeling like she could find someone that she could connect to. Someone that she was able to be like, oh my god, I'm not alone in this feeling and this experience and it's okay to feel what I'm feeling. Was such an elated moment for me to be like, oh my gosh, I can still help students (laughs). You know-- Meyer: You took that weight off her shoulders. Saldivar: Yeah. And it felt good to be, you know, I was there and I didn't have anyone to help me with navigating that. And I'm glad that I was able to be there for her to have those experiences that I could be able to connect with someone else who's going through the same thing. So yeah, the Cross-Cultural Center helped me grow a lot, Personally a lot. In understanding who I am, what space I take, what space I should take, you know, what being present means. In spaces that don't have many people of color or female people of color. Yeah. I mean it's (laughs). It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. Meyer: And I understand that you made a lot of friends there and met your husband at the Cross-Cultural Center. Saldivar: (laughs) Yes. Meyer: Tell us a little bit about how you guys met. Saldivar: Oh my gosh. (laughs). Meyer: Well, it's relevant to the Cross-Cultural Center, so. Saldivar: Right. Yeah. I mean, that's the funny thing. It's just, wow, y'all (both laugh) we're, we're like, y'all met and y'all married, now you have a kid. Okay! Meyer: So you're not the only ones. There's multiple. Saldivar: There were several people who, I would say yeah, got married some of our best friends and stuff. So me and Randy (Saldivar), met through a friend. It was not intentional when we first met. I was actually working with ASI at the time. So we were, I was at the cancer, one of the cancer walks, the Susan G. Koman cancer walks that we had on here at the field. I was a part of, you know, the walking team and my good friend Trish at the time, she was another Filipina-American and who were able to connect, was there with me to help support. And we were both at the check-in, check-in table at that time. And this is when we had the Nokia phones. Okay. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: This is how old it was. So she (laughs)--her. Randy had called her ‘cause I guess he was studying at the library. He was like, “Hey, what's up? What are you doing?” She's like, “Hey, come down.” You know, “I'm with my friend Dee, and we're at this thing, you know, just come and hang out.” He's like, okay. I didn't even know who he was. I didn't know who this guy was. She's like, oh, my friend's coming over. I'm like, okay, cool. I'm sitting there with my--I was in a Japanese 101 at this time, so I have my Japanese book out. I'm reading it, you know, he comes down with his boom box and (Meyers laughs) and I’m, I was like, what are you doing? He's like, oh yeah, you know, just B-boying. And I'm like, okay, cool. Whatever. You know, I didn't know anything about the hip-hop culture and stuff. And she's like, “Oh, this is my friend Randy, Randy this Dee,” I'm like, “Cool. Okay.” And he looks down and he is like, “Oh, you're studying Japanese?” I'm like, “Yeah, I'm in 101.” He's like, “Oh, I took it.” I was like, “Oh cool. How was it?” He's like, “Oh, it's really fun. He's like, do you need help with it?” I'm like, “No, I'm cool, thanks.” So (both laugh). So that's was my first initial meeting with him. Not even a thought. He was just a passing thought. And there was another time where they had the International Festival here on campus, and it was me and Trish again. And we're eating Ramen sitting on the floor. Randy comes by, says hi again. And this is a time where we had the old school, film. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: So we didn't have phones or anything. It was just, yeah, he was going around taking pictures, right, and--but this is where you could actually get it digitally downloaded, which was weird. On a CD, and he had taken a picture of me and Trish and it wasn't until years later when we started dating where we're going through photos. And it was labeled “Trish and Friend.” Meyer: Oh my God. (laughs) Saldivar: I was like-- Meyer: That's your wife. Saldivar: I was like, Randy, that's, that's me (both laugh). He was like, wait, what? He looks back, oh my god, I took a picture of you two (laughs). And we couldn’t stop dying. Just, we had all of these opportunities that we had met. And nothing. He wasn't attracted to me. I wasn't attracted to him. We had no clue. We even met each other. We're like, ah-ha. Cool. Okay. Bye. It wasn't until our friend Trish had decided when, you know after we were kind of starting the Cross-Cultural Center and stuff. It's, you know, let's create a, a student organization for Filipino-Americans or folks who were interested in the Filipino-American culture. Great. So she asked me to be on board. My friend Marvin, asked Randy to be on it, and her friend Katie. So it was the five of us. And we, we, that's when we literally first intentionally met each other. Like, oh, hey, okay. I thought of him as a little brother. I was like, cool (laughs), you know, whatever. And so then we would go to the Cross-Cultural Center, or the Multicultural Center to hold meetings just to hang out, you know? ‘Cause Alexis ended up being our advisor as well. So then we would ask him, okay, how do we, you know, how do we start this (student organization)? Or what are things that we need to do? You know, we ended up having our first GBM, you know, and, and saying, okay. So we started kind of building out the, the, the student org here and there. During that time there was probably about--we knew each other for about a good eight months by now. We just still friends. We just kil-, I don't even pay attention to him. He don't pay attention to me. We're just like, yeah, cool. Have you seen this movie? Cool. Have you seen this? Okay. Yeah. We're just hanging out. And then, masquerade ball was around the corner. And all of us were like, yeah, let's go. Let's go to masquerade ball. Woo! You know, let's just dress up and dance. And it was my friend Trish who was like, “So have you thought of, what do you think of Randy?” And I was like, what do you mean what do I think of Randy? “Like, you know, what do you think of him? Like, you think he's cute or something?” And I was like, “Uh, he's okay. I mean, he's nice.” Like she, I, you know, she's trying to plant seeds in my head. On the flip end, she's planting seeds on his end. Meyer: Oh. Saldivar: “So what do you think about Dee?” I was like, what! Meyer: One of those friends-- Saldivar: Yeah. Yeah. She's like, I see something, but you both don't see it. So she was playing matchmaker. And so one time, we were supposed to all meet and go to, a GBM meeting, or we call FCC, Filipino Collegiate Collaborative. So this is where, all the schools across San Diego, USC (University of Southern California), UCSD (University of San Diego), San Diego State and us (CSUSM) were supposed to meet all the Filipino American organizations. So we worked together outside of the school to work with other student orgs, which was really cool. So we were supposed to have our meeting, and it was supposed to be me, Trish, and Randy. And Trish was like, “Oh no, I'm sick. I can't go, but if you two wanna go.” I'm like, okay (laughs). Literally, that's kind of how it ended up going. “Okay. So, you wanna go to like, masquerade ball together?” “Sure. Okay.” So it ended up kind of being our first date in a sense. And then from there, you know, we were kind of dating and-- Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: Because we were still involved in, you know, Kamalayan Alliance. We were coming, as you could tell to the center, he would help out and volunteer a lot, you know, and he saw, you know, Alexis, he's like, “Hey, another Filipino. Yay!” So, you know, we all started kind of building the community and you know, we're spending more time together. He's helping out a lot. And then next thing you know, it's, I'm the one who asked him out (laughs). I was like, so, you know what's going on? (Meyer laughs) And he is like, hey, yeah. I was like, “So do you wanna go out or something?” And he looks at me and he's like, “Yeah, sure. Where do you want to eat?” (Meyer laughs) I was like, “What?” “Yeah. You said you wanna go out, so where do you want to eat?” I'm like, oh my god, you’re so dense. (laughs). I was like, no, do you, wanna be, you know, exclusive? He was like, “Oh yeah. Okay, cool.“ Meyer: Where do you want to eat? Right? Saldivar: He's like, uh, so this-- it tells you so much about his personality. We are so different from each other (laughs), you know, and, he's such a great support. He, when we talk about it, we laugh about it. I'm always the very type A business type of person behind the scenes. Let's get the logistics and stuff going. He's the PR (public relations) of it all. He can talk people's ear off, he can find people's stories, he can connect with them. And then once he does a connection here, here's Dee. And then, you know, I get all this stuff taken care of (laughs). So it was really cool. We've, we worked really well in tandem. And I, I'm surprised at the age that we were at, we were early twenties nobody knew we were dating. Meyer: Oh wow. Saldivar: We were very professional in a sense of where nobody knew in the student org or even sometimes in the Cross-Cultural Center that we were even together, we kept it very, professional. Didn't do the whole PDA (Public Display of Affection) thing. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: No. You know, we're not here to do that. We're here to serve our community. And I think at such a young age and stage of our relationship of being able to do that, helped us really kind of be able to be really good partners. In the sense where what we do here is for, you know, a different purpose versus what we do here. Meyer: Right Saldivar: I think it was the one time (laughs) at a GBM, this is where the students really started growing. You know, we had almost forty to fifty members by the second, third year, and we had people come through the center and stuff. (laughs) When GBM, he went to go off to go get lunch and he is like, let me go grab something before the, the, the meeting and I'll see you. I'll be right back. And then he gave me a kiss. Everyone freaked out. They're like, oh, what? Meyer: Oh. Saldivar: They're like, what? (laughs) We’re like, what? They’re like what was that? (points, laughs), and we’re like, oh, y'all don't know yet? Like really a core small group of us. The ones right here knew, you know. Meyer: But everyone else. Saldivar: Everyone else, because I guess because they didn't hang out with us outside of the Cross-Cultural Center or at our house or when we went to the dinner and things like that. We really kept it. We, we didn't know we were that good at keeping it very separate. You know, when we go out to sushi or dinner, hang out at people's houses and we were, you know, completely different people. But we were in a school setting or the Kamalayan setting, we were very--we are officers, we are representatives of this, you know, this space. We need to be kind of, you know, professional. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So yeah. That moment that kiss happened, people were like, (gasps)? And we had people, no, you're lying. You're all lying to us. You just, no, you're trying to prank, someone was so sure we were probably, we were trying to just get a rise out of people. We're like, no, we've been together for like six months now. They're like, (gasps) no! (laughs). So it was, it was crazy. It was, that's how we ended up meeting, you know, he graduated in Kinesiology in 2009. Yeah. He--and what was nice is that in, he was also the president of Kamalayan, probably within the first two or three years. And the Cross-Cultural Center helped in creating a lot of the success of Kamalayan and where we had the first API (Asian Pacific Islanders) graduate ceremony. Meyer: Oh. Saldivar: Now that has been going on. And we used the center, oh my gosh, that was so crazy. (laughs). We had used the Cross-Cultural Center as a place to build the graduate, the, the planning of the graduate. And we also made the stoles. This is how we had no budget. So we went to Michael's (craft store) and bought the thickest red stole, I mean, red ribbon we could. Meyer: Oh yeah. Saldivar: And black puffy paint. Meyer: Oh no. Saldivar: And we're sitting there, (painting) 2005. Meyer: And that never looks even or clean. Saldivar: Oh no. It was a hot, ugly mess. (Meyer laughs) And you know, we put API grad and there's, you know we're trying to sit there and make it dry, so nothing's smearing. We had red ribbons everywhere and Alexis was like, what the heck is going on? I'm like, “We're making stoles!” (Both laugh) And he's like, oh boy. So I'm--yeah. A lot of the things that happened, like I said, the Cross-Cultural Center was an incubator. A lot of things was DIY (Do It Yourself). It was handmade. You had no budget. So what were we gonna do? You know, we had a lot of, thank goodness we had a lot of support from departments and different, areas with, other API folks who were like, yeah, we got budgets that we could go ahead and just hand over to you or, you know, we'll support you or sponsor you in this or sponsor you in that. So, oh, thank goodness for this community because I don't know if we would’ve got where we are today without really, the support of the school to see that there is a need and it wasn't coming up from the president or things like that. It was coming from the ground up. So that was really cool. Meyer: You were asking for what you needed, not having someone tell you. Yeah. Saldivar: Exactly. And they're like, oh, we--that's what made a, I think Cal State San Marcos such a unique school is that they listen to the people from the ground. It's not directives always coming from the top saying, hey, we need this, or you need to do this, or you need to do this. It's like, no, the students are saying something, how can we meet their needs? Type of thing. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So it's been really cool in seeing that dynamic versus a lot of other institutions that believe or think that, you know, this is what the students want, but not really listening to them. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: So yeah. So yeah, all in all, that's how me and Randy met. And we ended up getting married after I finished my master's program. And then now we have a child. Two of our other friends, Mike and Darlene met through, he was part of Kamalayan and she was a part of VSA, the Vietnamese Student Association. And we worked really well together, or we worked closely together and we ended up being, you know, in the Cross-Cultural Center as well. And so she ended up asking him out and he was like, “Sure, okay. I didn't know you liked me.” (Both laugh). And now they're together, married. And then other, there's another couple come Kamalayan Alliance that also was a part of the Cross-Cultural Center and they ended up doing, PCN together, Filipino Culture Night. Which was another thing the Cross-Cultural Center helped create and establishing a lot of that stuff too. And now they're married (laughs). So yeah, there's a lot of married couples coming out and just, you know, we're still really all in touch with each other. People have ended up, generations after us, one of our good friends Jael he was part of Kamalayan Alliance, I'm not sure if he was part of the board, but now he owns and runs his own polvorón company, called Papa's Polvorón. And where he's now has his--it started out as like a at home kitchen type of thing. And he was at the farmer's markets. Now he has his product in a lot of the Filipino stores, across the nation. So it's like, geez, (laughs). Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, it's really nice to see where all of the students and people who've been through the Cross-Cultural Center and where they are now. You know, and I think that's just one of the biggest rewards I see. Being a part of that community was like, wow, I was there to see y'all start like, “I don't know what I wanna do. I just wanna go and, eat all you can eat sushi.” To, now they're having families and having own businesses and doing great things and great work, you know? So Yeah. So yeah. That's how I met my husband (laughs). Long story short. Meyer: Well it's so intertwined with the story of the Center for you. So I think it's really cool the, you know. Yeah. Saldivar: When we, took our engagement photos we came back to the center, we came back to the campus because this has so much meaning for us. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know-- Meyer: I'll add the pictures, to the file later. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: But, just so people know what you're talking about, the picture of you when you thought it was, like a conference and it was a surprise actually. Saldivar: Yeah. (laughs) Meyer: That’s that's really sweet. Yeah. What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing going forward as it coexist with these other identity-specific spaces? You said it's kinda like a support, an incubator, it helps kind of foster the activities of the other programs. Saldivar: Yeah. I think when, when it was in, during my time generation, that's what it was. Now, I mean, it's grown so much and where I, I want--in a sad way that I don't recognize it anymore, but that's a good thing. Because that means there has been growth and development and changes. And I'd rather see that than stay where it is stagnant-wise. What role it has now on the campus, I--I don't really know. Meyer: You've been off campus for awhile (laughs). Saldivar: I’ve been off campus for a while, so it's like, oh, I don’t know what it's gonna be. I mean, what they're doing now, it, it--and I want them to continue what they're doing: is to just continue to, to grow support, find changes. I mean, a lot of the things that I've seen is, you know, with their programming has changed. Which I think it's great, it's changing with the times and that's how all centers should be is, you know, they have to go with what's going on with the students. If they're not willing to change or, be flexible, then what's kind of, what's the purpose of the center? Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, that's kind of the (laughs) thing I could say because I mean, I've been so removed. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: I mean, other than coming back and, you know, being like, “Yay. Hi everybody.” I'm like-- Meyer: You haven't been hands-on with the center for a while. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: Of course, of course. Saldivar: Yeah. I'm, I'm the person that used to be here years ago (laughs). “No, don't call me Auntie, please!” (Both laugh) Meyer: And are there any other memories you wanna share that, um, like I know there were retreats that you guys (video cuts out, battery ran down, audio recording) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=SaldivarDiana_StanleySeth_2023-04-14.xml SaldivarDiana_StanleySeth_2023-04-14.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Saldivar, Diana. Interview April 14th 2023. Description An account of the resource Diana Saldivar is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Communications, Sociology and Ethnic Studies. Saldivar worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2004-2007 and was also involved in the Asian Pacific Islander Student Society, Kamalayan Alliance, and with Associated Students Incorporated (student government). In her interview, Saldivar discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center provided her with a sense of belonging on campus and served as a second home. Saldivar explains how the center provided her with lifelong friendships, skills and connections that has helped her become the person she is today. Saldivar recounts how the CCC provided a safe space, allowing for conversations with others that are often deemed controversial, and how the center encouraged those to constantly seek knowledge. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-39 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University. Multicultural Programs Filipino Americans Human rights Student success San Diego State University Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-14 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Diana Saldivar Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madeleine Meyer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Diana Saldivar Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2c516f34374336a003467920b9e6a60e.pdf 5a59759182ca0ebad99808f33264f291 PDF Text Text DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 Diania Caudell: Is my lipstick okay? [laughs] Linda Kallas: Today is October 27, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Diania Caudell as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you, Diania, for being here, and allowing me to do this with you today. DC: No $uun Looviq [“My heart is good” in Luiseno. Our way of saying “thank you.”] [chuckles] LK: Miiyu. [“Hello” to one person in Luiseno.] DC: Miiyu [laughs]. LK: Um, we were—I just wanted to ask you when and where you were born. DC: Uh, where was I—April 16, 1948. I was born here in North County, San Diego—Oceanside, California, San Diego County. LK: And was your family an active part of any cultural community, such as religious or ethnic groups? DC: Well [sighs] yeah, we were, uh, part of the first indigenous people here in the Americas or whatever you want to say on that part. Um, we are part of the San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians, uh, been in the area as far as, uh, the written is concerned, you know, since they were written at the Missions, I would say the 1700s, because after that it was, um, mostly—before that it was all oral. So, um, we’ve been here over nine generations. That’s on the native side. LK: That’s on the native side. DC: Yeah. LK: Which means— DC: It means that— LK: On the other side is— DC: On the other side, the French side came to us, and he landed here in 1868. He was Hubert Foussat. Here in San Francisco. He was one of the founding fathers of Oceanside. LK: Is that why there’s a street named after him? DC: Yes. But that’s not at a—that’s not named after my great grandfather. That’s named, really, with—after his brother, Ramon Foussat. LK: Okay. DC: And he’s the one that had the ranch in the area up there, by Highland and Oceanside. Faustino Foussat had the land there in the valley, San Luis Rey Valley. LK: And there’s also an elementary school named Louise Foussat. 1 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: Yes. She’s—I’ve always called her as an aunt, but she’s really a cousin. Um, she was—she married a Foussat. Okay. Her maiden name is a Munoa, and her mother was, um, Theresa Gidden, Theresa Giddens, and, um, that’s another one that’s—she was born at Pala, and, uh,that’s another side of our family, my father’s side, that had been here a long time. That’s another whole side that I could talk about when you get to that point, if you want to, and his grandmother— LK: Okay. DC: —was born on the Marron Ranch in 1865, so— LK: So, your family history stretches way back in the North County. DC: Yes. Yes. LK: Um, this seems like a silly question, but how do you like living and working here? DC: [laughs] Okay, it—all I can tell you is that, um, I wouldn’t want to live anyplace else, you know, other than—growing up, I lived all over the state of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada, only because I’m, I’m a construction brat, let’s just put it that way. My father was a heavy construction operator, had his own equipment. So, if you go anywhere here in California for the freeways, he probably helped build those, all the dams here in California, uh, he was probably was working on those, um, also like Parker Dam in New Mexico, you know, even in Arizona, I mean, excuse me, Arizona. You have some of the bigger dams, you know, throughout [breathes in] so, um, my mother kept coming back to North County, because she was born here in San Luis Rey Valley. Her family, her family’s from here. My father’s family is from Pala. So, we kept coming back and, um, I think she put her foot down from travelling when my brother and I were in junior high. So, I graduated from Escondido High School, and stayed in Escondido until I got married, then I moved up to Orange County, San Juan Capistrano. I was up there for 40 some years, before I came back down here to my home. LK: Wow. DC: [laughs, then bell chimes] Oh-oh. Is that me? LK: Well, so you do feel part of the community, and within that, do you feel like you have a support network? DC: Well, if you’re gonna say support network, you’re going to have to look at the whole family, okay. Just with my great-grandfather. He had 11 daughters. LK: Wow. DC: And so, one of them was my grandmother, and he raised my mother because her father died when she, when she was a young child. And so, my great-grandfather, Faustino Foussat, raised her. So, when you have a large—just one branch of the Foussat family that had all these sisters and all these children, um, there’s a support group on the ones that were close [chuckles] let’s just say. My grandmother, um, was born in San Luis Rey Valley, uh, lived there all her life, uh, well not all her—until she retired, and then she went to Hemet. But, she retired from Camp 2 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 Pendleton. She was one of the first workers there, you know, in the pressing. So, network-wise, yes, we have a good network of family. But, they all kind of seem to travel away, you know, on some things. Still, today, you know, because it’s San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians which I’m part of, we have good support network, in that, within relatives. I mean we have—I have a lot of cousins, you know, and related on both sides. If we had to talk about that, I’m double related on some of them, and people just kind of wonder what—how did that happen? When you try to explain the story, uh, it gets confusing. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: So, um, we just want to do a big picture one day [laughs]. LK: That would be nice. Um, you said that you were in Orange County for 40 years. DC: Mm-hmm. LK: So, tell me about the work you did there. DC: [sighs] Ok. Let’s just start that—when I got married, I moved up there and, um, when I was here I was starting in accounting. Okay? I’m an accountant by trade. That wasn’t really what I wanted to do, but that’s how it ended up, you know, going into accounting. Um, so I did a lot of accounting for dealerships. Went back to college to get my degree into Accounting, and then went into accounting, business law, etc. so I stayed—like to work with numbers. I’m just good with numbers. And, so, I worked with dealerships, school districts, medical field in the accounting field. I didn’t become, later on, the weaver or in, with my cultural until I had to have a back injury. So, for 40-some years, up there in San Juan Capistrano, Orange County, I got involved with the Acjachemen people, the Juaneños there, helping them through Indian education, in the 70s, because that’s a story that— I can go into that, and I think I—it’s kind of long but shortly is that I grew up with being native, and the schools not teaching us correctly. Okay? LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You read the books, etcetera, and you hear about how they were dressed, what they were, were they savages? Etcetera. And I would come home from school and saying this is not how we are. And then my mother, my grandmother, and family would say “Don’t argue, Diania, just let it go.” And so when I got married, and my two children, my son and my daughter, when they went to school up there in the Palisades, or in Capistrano Unified School District, they came home one day and said they were entitled to something other. It was like a Spanish program, Title II, at that time. And so, I went to the school to find out how my children got tagged into—in the Spanish community, when my last name is French, and it’s Caudell. And so, talking with the school principal, um, we found out that I followed that person that was in charge of Title II, and what had happened—how my two ended up coming with that notice is that this person went around the school to the classrooms and asked questions. Now, if you had a surname, with Romero, Sanchez, Alvaros, Valenzuela, any of those Spanish names, she automatically put them down on the list as a Spanish or Mexican. Uh, then, the other question when she got that from the roster, she then would ask “how many children here already know that their parents, or grandparents, 3 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 speak Spanish.” Well, my two automatically raised their hand because their father spoke Spanish. And he was taught that from his mother and also because of the community of San Juan Capistrano. You’ve got to think of the missions. That was the language that was taught to the Indian people. And, um, so that’s how my two got on there. And so I challenged that at the school district, at the, you know, with the superintendent, and, uh, they came back at me and saying “well, the last Indian person that was living here in San Juan Capistrano died in 1933, and he was the bell-ringer.” And I go, “no, that can’t be, because I’m here. I’ve got relatives that are married into the Juaneño or Acjachemen people. You still have them here, and so, um, I became an advocate [laughs], an activist, or whatever you want to say, and contacted my relatives there, that are—that married into the Acjachemen people, and, identified them. We went back to the school district, and went through all their rosters, because back in the 70s, when you’re ethnic, when they ask you that question, when you’re enrolling your student, your child, they ask you what ethnic group you are. Well, in those days—I’m saying those days, in the 70s, you only had, like, you had Caucasian, you had Asian—not even Asian, really. Mexican, I think. But you didn’t have the—what you have today is the Native American/Alaskan ethnic group. And so I always put us under “Other” as Native American, because I am a registered through the B.I.A., Bureau of Indian Affairs, and I have my certification, that I am who I am, meaning Native American. And, um, so I always made sure that my children would have that, going through there. So, we went through K-12, went to the registry of the school district and got all their cum files, or whatever they call them, those information files, and took home all the ones that were identified as Native American. A lot of them were not, because they didn’t want to, because it was passed down to us that you didn’t want to register as Native American because it wasn’t the best thing to do. So, they always put Caucasian. So, from K-12 in that school district, Capistrano High School District, we had identified 210 students. LK: Wow. DC: And so that kind of put us into the category of challenging the school. Uh, UCI had Kogee Thomas at that time. She was the Director. She heard about what was happening. She came down to become my mentor. With that, because she’s really high with the Seminoles and Muscogee people at that, then, and we wrote the first grant. We brought in Title IV, Indian Education Act, Public Law 194, in 1975. [laughs] LK: Wow. DC: So, I’ve been through this for a long time. We ended up forming the San Juan Capistrano Council, because they had to reform themselves again. They never left. They just said their leader moved, and they just kind of—in the 60s, or in the 50s, he left, and so they just kind of knew they were there, but they weren’t formally formed yet. So we reformed them. So today I can just tell you that in Capistrano Unified School District, they still have Indian Education. They have a Indian Research Center, kind of, for teachers, instructors, and parents, there on the Clarence Lobo Elementary school grounds. LK: Mm-hmm. 4 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: That if you wanted to study any Indian, not just California, any, any native person across indigenous person across the United States, in Alaska and Hawaii, etc., that you can go to that resource center, and that instructor, teacher, parent can pull the correct information that these tribes have handed in. So, that was one of my things that I did up there, other than just being an accountant. LK: Wow, that’s impressive. DC: Okay, that was in the community. [laughs] LK: Yes, yes. And then you mentioned you hurt your back and that’s what lead you to getting into basketry. Can you talk a little bit about that? DC: [sighs] Yeah, that was, um, a fall I had, okay? I don’t want to describe the fall, because it’s kind of, you know, it’s kind of stupid. I mean, the thing is when you hurt your back, um, I thought I’d go to the chiropractor. I went to work, and was working in Huntington Beach at that time, and I drove my car to Huntington Beach, went to sit down at my desk at the dealership, sat down and I couldn’t move. They had to literally pick me up, take me to my car. I called my chiropractor in Newport and, uh, he went to adjust it, and he says “This isn’t that, you know. This is something else.” And so they took x-rays, and he still tried the adjustment. I—and it got a point where I had to quit. I couldn’t—you know, I was losing to walk, etc. And the pain kept going through that, and then finally when they did an MRI on me, you know, they found out that I had―let me see, I’m trying to figure out how to describe this, because I’m not a medic, medical person— I was diag—rheumatism arthritis runs in our family on my dad’s side, my grandmother’s side. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Not too much on my mother’s side, but on, through my dad’s side. And so, I guess hereditarily, I have that in my system. What are you going to do? So, when I hit the lower back really hard, I accelerated the arthritis rheumatism in my spine. And so when that happened, that’s what they found with the MRI. So, they said “Diania, if you don’t have, do something with it, it’s going to get worse, and you’re going to lose a lot of functions that you normally can take that you can control of. And, anyway, I put it off a whole year. I didn’t want to have my back opened up. And so, I got to a point where I couldn’t deal with this anymore. And so, I had to say yes. They opened up 5, 4, and 6 of your vertebraes <sic>. They opened them up, and all I can describe it was a rotor-rooter job. She went in there, and just tried to scrape out all the rheumatism, or arthritis, away from my spine, inside my spine. And when she did that, she hit one of the sciatic nerves. LK: oh… DC: And uh, ‘cuz it, nothing’s replaced. They just sealed it back up again. And, uh, so when I came out of surgery, I didn’t realize that I couldn’t walk because the nurses tried to—they put those belts [gestures tying a belt around her waist] on you when you’re going to go and make you go to the restroom, etc., you know, when you’re [unintelligible] and when I went to get out the bed, I fell straight to the floor. Thank goodness I had belts on me, because the two nurses and 5 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 all the surgeons come running in, and I lost everything from the waist down. Had to learn how to walk all over again. It took me—they said “Diania, you’re going to have to learn patience.” And I’m not one with patience, let’s put it that way. I do have patience for other people, but not for myself. So, I didn’t know what to do and the Acjachemen people had sent me a newsletter, and my mom brought it up, and on the front cover of that newsletter that was next to the, my bed in the hospital was Lillian Robles. She’s an elder. She’s passed on before, but she had a basket hat on. And I saw the basket hat and I went “Oh, great. I guess to learn patience, I guess I can get into basketry.” LK: Oh… DC: And I never was in it. I was more in the Indian education. I was more into the helping with the activities. My mother was a weaver. My aunts were weavers, their jewelry, they’re always crafting with their hands. I was not. They always pushed me away, and said “Diania, you know, we’re need—we need you in education. We need you speaking for our people.” And so when I called, I looked at that, and I called Teeter Romero who was a top weaver from the Acjachemen people, and she—her and I were really close, worked together for years, with Indian education— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―Inter-tribal Council of California, I mean, the different areas, you know, for the people, Indian people. And I called her, and let her know that, um, I need to become a weaver. Well, she started laughing on the phone, when I called from the hospital, because she didn’t know where I was at. LK: She laughed at you? DC: Well, she laughed at me, because she said “you’re not a weaver, you know, you’re just not a weaver.” And then she says “Why?” And I says “Well, I’m in the hospital, and I can’t walk, and I need to learn patience.” So, when she heard that, she says “okay, when you’re able to get home and sit up in a wheelchair, we’ll come to you.” And, they did. I was with my mom here in Escondido, at that time. And they came down. About six months—let’s see, I had the operation in April; they came down in June. And I was being able to sit up in there. I was still trying to learn to walk. I was with a walker. And, they came! And they started, uh—sat down with me, and the first thing they gave me was raffia in one hand and pine needle in the other, and they had me doing the coiling, just to learn to go round and round and round and round, with basketry. From then on, it took me, you know, work—it took me almost two years to learn how to walk again, by myself. I was with a—I couldn’t drive. My mom was driving me all over. I had the walker. I got everything back in my left leg, but on my right leg not everything came through. And so, another six to eight months, I was doing acupuncture at Indian Health Council in Rincon, because I didn’t want to open up my back again, okay, have another surgery. So, I don’t have a lot of feeling in my right foot, from my calf, I think, down. But, I do think it—people don’t realize that, you know, that I don’t, but that’s what put me into retirement, really. LK: How many years ago was that? DC: Okay. When did 9/11, what year was that? 2001? 6 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: That was ’01. DC: Okay, ’01. LK: 09. DC: Because, yeah, April of ’01, because I remember I was still in bed and my mom got a call from her sister and my mom come running in to my bedroom, trying to insist I turn the TV on, and what she says—my mom was crying and I looked at that and there it was when I saw the airplane hit. They had that going on the towers and it was like looking at a movie. LK: Yeah. DC: Okay. That was just unbelievable. Okay? So, that was April, September, okay. It was— that’s how I can remember. I can never remember the year, but I just think it’s the year of 9/11. So twenty-oh-one, right? LK: Yeah, 21 years ago. DC: Yeah, so it was 21 years ago. I was still on—I have been on social security disability, because I can’t sit that long. So, if I get up on you guys, and take a break, then I’m sorry, you know, but that—My, my job was an accountant, and so that was sitting a lot. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then to get up and sit and get up is one of the things. So, uh, that’s how I got into basketry and I’m still doing that today, you know, on that. But, it’s taken me learning different things, you know, getting—you want me to go into California Indian Basket Weavers Association? LK: Yeah, I― DC: [laughs] okay, okay. LK: I was going to ask that—I—but I wanted to go back, just for a minute— DC: Okay. LK: —to Indian education. DC: Mm-hmm. LK: So, I think you said it’s still going on to this day. You still, they still have that educational program in San Juan Capistrano. DC: Yeah, they still have the Capistrano Unified School District and it’s going still strong, but they have to be the parents that have to want it. LK: Ah, okay. 7 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: It doesn’t just stay with the Acjachemen people. And they do have, I think they have a resource instructor there, someone in their administration, that they do go out for. Because it is a fund. It’s funding, it’s federal funding. All school districts need money― LK: Right. DC: ―and it’s a head count. And so, Capistrano Unified School District still has it, so does Huntington Beach, because they have a large community of the Cherokee Indian― LK: Oh! DC: ―outside natives coming in, because a lot of people don’t realize, that if they do start researching, you can go into 1963. They had the Relocation Act, of Native Americans. And, this isn’t taught in schools. This isn’t taught in—you know, for the general public, sometimes, unless you’re involved with Native Americans and their—and the different things. Well, 1963 they relocated Cherokee, Choctaw, and a lot of different native groups into California. LK: Oh… DC: You know, a lot of the Cherokees went to the Anaheim area, Huntington Beach area, and settled there. You had a lot of the Cherokee, Osage, and some coming down to San Diego. The largest Choctaw Relocation is in Bakersfield. LK: I’ll be darned. DC: So, yeah, it’s a—it was—it’s interesting, uh, how they did move native people around to get them away from their “homeland” and give them incentives at that time that “we can move you to California. You know, you can emerge into there” and stuff. And so a lot of it is kind of detrimental but with them, they brought their, they brought their culture and their tradition with them, which is good. LK: So, if you could see something change in regard to that educational program, what would it be? Would it be to expand it to San Diego County? Would it be… DC: Well, San Diego County had a big—has a big Indian education program. They did—they— you just don’t hear about it― LK: Okay. DC: ―um, in their school district. What it would be good to expand on there is that, um, to get it more to the public, to the other schools, okay. It takes a school district to want it. I’ve notified Oceanside. I’ve notified Vista. In Vista alone, a few years ago, they identified another 200, because now they have that on their information form of the child’s registers, you know, what ethnic group you are. And 210 had registered as Native American. It doesn’t mean they’re, you know, San Luis Rey or California. They can be from anywhere in the United States. And most of them that do register for their ethnic group know that they are, or they’ve been told that they are. LK: Mm-hmm. 8 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: But it gets a parent, it’s gotta be a parent to initiate it, to get a parent group together, and that way they can work with the school district. And then they can apply for grants. And then they can get the head count. Then they can get a resource instructor in there, or someone to work with the Indian education, and then it comes in with tutoring. That was one thing I did. I knew for, just for reading and math, at least. Get the children on the tutoring. They have the tutoring. They were pulled out of class or they brought the equipment in, if they needed equipment. There, Capistrano Unified School District, we’ll go back to that. It was shown as a need. Getting the general books that they need into the libraries. That’s how that resource center started, because the school districts will only go by what the state says, for state books, state history books, they―etc. The Native peoples say “No, that’s not correct. We will want our own books coming in.” So that’s what we did in the 70s. We brought in records. At that time, you didn’t have CDs or you know, what we had, you know, you had— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: LPs. And so we brought in records of the singing of the different groups. They brought in books that the teachers can get through, or parents could check out, you know, and working with that to get the education in there. And you have to have the school district to want to work with you. Um, we—it was a hard thing, with, even with Capistrano Unified School District, to do it. But if I didn’t have the help with Kogee Thomas and some of the top people that come from back east, that were very strong in their native cultural, that I don’t think that Capistrano would have done it either. ‘Cuz we challenged them. We challenged them, so— LK: But, how enriching for the students. DC: It is, but you got to have again, you gotta have a parent― LK: Right. DC: ―who would want that, so their student or their child can get that extra help. LK: There has to be a buy-in for it, with the parent. DC: Yes, and so it’s, it’s—today, in Capistrano Unified School District, the ones that do use it— I know my grandchildren went through it—they provided the computers at home for the tutoring. You know, they didn’t have to go to like a trailer, or be pulled out of class, and be taken, you know, like to a tutorial room like we did in the 70s. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Uh, with the st—with my two children, my daughter used it and they had computers at home. The school district provided these computers, these laptops for the home that they could use and they got tutored every day, since they were in grade school. All the way through high school. LK: Wow. It gave them a really good sense of self. DC: It gave a sense of self, and they—at first it was “why do we have to do this for half an hour every day?” [laughs] I mean, but as they got older in high school, and then went to college, you 9 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 know, especially going through all those tests that you have to take for college, they, they were happy because they knew a lot of the questions and were able to answer them. Because of the tutorial they had, um, above and beyond what they normally get in school, in class. LK: Wow. That’s wonderful. So, you’ve already explained a little bit about your life’s path, how it’s evolved and changed over the years, so I was going to ask you if you wanted to share a little bit more about the basketry and CIBA, and I see that you have a little sample of one. DC: [laughs] Ok. When you said CIBA, I don’t think everybody knows what CIBA is, okay. You’re familiar with it. CIBA is California Indian Basket Weavers Association. Um, that’s another thing that I have been a member of and I’m on the Board for the last umpteen years, I would say—let’s just say the last 12 years. I know it’s been longer. Uh, but how I got involved in that, again, was going back to when I became basket—learning basketry and the plants, finding out that southern California doesn’t have everything that they normally have. If you know the county here, we’ve got 18 reservations here in the San Diego County alone and the people— where they were sent—aren’t on their homelands. I mean— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It’s not where they would have their medi—their medicinal plants, their foods, or their traditional cultural plants like basketry and other things, and so they had—the people had to go off the reservations, and to public lands, which would be your forestries, um, county parks, state parks, etc., even private land, to get the materials that they need for the basketry. Well, I had a problem with that because I didn’t understand that, you know, and why did they have the restrictions here in southern California when I found out that in central California, they don’t have that. In northern California they don’t have the same restrictions. But it’s because a lot of these central reservations or rancherias in northern California, too, is that they’re on their homelands. They’re rancherias. They weren’t like taken from one area and moved. Okay. They’ve had little rancherias, then. That’s what they called them, instead of reservations, up in northern California, spread out. And so they were on their lands and they had the traditional materials. LK: Oh, I see. DC: For example, you’ve got the Yuroks and the Hoopas up there. They’re in the forest up there. They have the red for—the, the redwoods. They got the forest. They’ve got a lot of their plants. And that’s their economic development. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But, that’s―they don’t call them reservations. They call them rancherias. Okay, so, so I started asking questions about that. You know, I’d say “how come, what for?” And I went to a gathering of CIBA, because they have a large gathering once a year for the basket weavers of the state of California, and I started asking “how come, what for, why is it that in California we don’t have this, when you have it up there?” And then I was told by a board member, “Well, Diania, you keep asking these questions. Why don’t you—we’re having a Board election. Why don’t you throw your hat in, your name, and we can see what we can do?” Well, I got elected. 10 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 You know, I mean, I didn’t expect that at all. And I’ve been on it ever since, since 2003. And, uh, so I became an advocate of, for southern California, to get in, our traditional trading, you know, gathering, etc., our traditional materials, you know, on that. And so, if I didn’t enjoy what I’m doing and have a passion for it, you know, I think learning about my traditional materials that we use for basketry, which is hard to find here in southern California, if you don’t get somebody to help you, you know, with that. And, um, so I think being educating people has helped me. LK: Um, the traditional materials are hard to find because of development? They’ve all been— DC: Yes, uh— LK: —plowed over or— DC: Um, there’s a—[reaching to her left for a brochure with the front cover reading “Indian Rock Project”] okay, let me just see, I’m just going to go through here. This here, this is Indian Rock Project, okay. This is something that we worked with the Cal St—uh, San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians and Cal State San Marcos worked together with Palomar College to do, to put this book out. This was done in 2003, which was a long time ago. But in here, in this book, let me just—[flipping through pages]—the—when you see what they—when you ask me about, uh—[looking at a particular page]—uh, where is it? [flips through more pages] And then you all—she’s probably going to edit this, but that’s okay. Because I was asked that question that you were just asking, and [still flipping through pages] LK: About the natural— DC: I found it. Okay, I had said here, on here “preserving tradition” and this is, you know― [turning the booklet to Linda to show her the specific pages]—I ended up being in the booklet, okay, okay, on this Indian Rock Project [shows front cover] You could probably go online, you know, and download it, because they don’t have any more of these booklets. But, when you asked me that question, I said [she’s reading from the booklet] “a lot of our things are being destroyed. If you look at our environment around us, we have development, development, development. Juncus and all the plants that we use for actually making the baskets are being destroyed. When we are out driving, we stop, we get out there, and we take pictures. I want to find a spot, notify the nearest reservations, notify the Forestry, notify the developers—“Can we go in? Can we pick? Can we transplant? Because if you are going to develop it and destroy it, let us go in.” That was a statement that I had made, you know, for—for, for, like an interview for this booklet. So— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then it went on [flipping through booklet again] into who I am or whatever. But, um, yes, the development. And so more developers now are finding out that if you do have—if you do identify traditional materials and stuff, they are now trying to hopefully preserve ‘em, or to have you come in and take them, or use them. But it is. Southern California is, gets hit with a lot of development because you look around here and you’re looking at it. I’m looking at the Mission San Juan—Mission, excuse me, San Luis Rey Mission. If you ever go by there, and stuff 11 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 like this, you’ll see we had wetlands there right next to it, and through the Lavanderia and right next to the Mission, what’s happening now? The Mission leased it out, or sold it, whatever you want to say—99-some years. You’ve got this big, huge retirement center going in there. It’s like a resort. They are built on the wetlands, and uh, there went something that was natural, native, etc., and it’s being developed. You drive around to different places now, here in San Diego County, and you’re seeing development. So, it’s really hard on— LK: Everywhere you look. DC: Yeah, and I just don’t understand, for me, where they’re getting their water from. Because if we have a resource of, of water—that’s one of the things that we don’t have here in southern California. We have to bring it in from other places. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: How can you develop and, and, and bring in people, more and more people, so how are you going to give them water? Feeding you know—if you’re going to feed, you’ve got the grocery stores yet, or whatever. You still can’t even have farmland any more hardly, but water. Water is essential for all living things. So, where they come, the water? I mean, the lease on the Colorado River is coming up. That was only a 99-year agreement. How are they going to negotiate that, if they want to stop the Colorado River from coming in? You know, I know they’re doing desalting plant, but that’s not even good for the ocean, you know, and not even good for us as people. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: So, um, that’s a big question that I ask. Every time I drive around and see these developments, you know, and it’s money. It’s politics and money. Okay, we can go on. We won’t go into that—[laughs] LK: Well, going back to the baskets— DC: Okay. LK: Can you tell us some of the natural fibers that you use, natural plants you use in the baskets. DC: Okay. LK: The traditional— DC: —Traditional plants. In the state of California, we have over 243 different tribes, 26 different dialects of language, and each one of the—in California, it’s kind of divided up, like in northern, central, and southern, and we all don’t use the same plants. Here in southern California, we basically use about five. And that would be Juncus textilis, which is a green reed that grows near water. It needs water. It’s like a tule, if you’ve seen tule in― LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―these wetlands, and stuff, or at these lakes, lagoons, but it’s not cornered or— Tule has three—is three-sided. Juncus textilis, is round. It’s a round reed, and it grows up straight. It 12 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 could—If you know how crab grass grows, it has, is that right? How it goes—what do you call that [gestures with her right hand, pointing straight and making curves in a snake-like fashion]— you know, you pull it out of the shoots— LK: Uh-huh. DC: —you know, like crab grass— LK: Yeah. DC: And, anyway, uh, depending on where it’s growing at and the materials that are in the— minerals—excuse me—that are in the soil, the bottom of the root type of thing, where the shaft comes out of there, the reed comes out of that shaft, it’ll have color on it. And it’s either from a deep light brown, mahogany color, to a deep red mahogany color. And, I didn’t bring any of those baskets with me. I was going to, okay, but maybe I should have, but I didn’t. If you ever notice some of the traditional baskets, you’ll see this deep red color or brown color— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That’s usually coming from the Juncus on the, on the end of the shaft on there, bottom part, which is in the ground. It’s green when you plant—It’s green when you collect it. You have to process it. It takes time. It grows with poison oak. That’s another thing. We call it—it’s our protector. The only time we go and gather the Juncus textilis is when we say the poison oak goes to sleep, and that only means that the leaves are gone. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it’s still going to be contaminated, probably, with poison oak. And that’s why we don’t teach it as much, because some people don’t want to be dealt with, with poison oak. That’s what, that’s the reed that we use for coiling. Okay? And that takes a process, splitting, etc., and getting it ready. It takes anywhere from six months to a year to even get your material ready to do a basket. The next one that we use for our start would be the center, which is the center of the basket, is yucca. And that, again, is that—what is it, yucca—uh, the Whippi? Or they call it the “Lord’s Candle.” It think you’ve seen it down by the road. You’ll see it growing on the hillsides. There’s different ways to use that. Some people will take the dead leaves, those great big green ones that they have and they grow pretty, even from the agave— LK: Mm-hmm. DC:—and the yucca. When you see those dead ones, or dried out, in the desert, etc., you can take those and you can soak them really, really big in a big tub, and then you take that, and you pound it. And you just keep pounding it, when they’re—you know, when you’re drying them. And they’ll—they’ll turn fibrous, like string— LK: Oh. 13 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC:—and that’s how you get your yucca sandals, and things like that, that they use in fiber, or your cordage. The other way you can do is with the yucca is you take the center of the new shoots that are coming out, before it becomes a flower in the stalk. [gestures up with an open hand] You take that, and you twist it, and you get about 30 or 40 small, small [gestures to indicate smallness of an object] little leaves, and then you take those and you shred ‘em with a needle—we do—or pound them, and uh, you don’t need to go out there anymore because you’re not going to make 30 or 40 bags in your lifetime, as far as I know. I’m not going to. But you have enough to where you don’t have to go out there and gather them. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Then, deer grass. People use deer grass as a native plant for decoration or whatever, because it’s drought tolerant. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it’s not that Pampas grass that you see waving from that Africa—that African one is an invasive plant. I wish people would just take it away, and these nurseries—just take it out, you know get it—because that Pampas grass kills everything on the native plants. It just takes over. And deer grass is similar to it, but it doesn’t have that fan on the top. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And, uh, the deer grass, we gather that and we take the shoots or the stems on them, and we gather, and that’s what we coil around [gestures in a coiling fashion with both hands] So, the traditional, for the Mission baskets they called here that the Luiseño use, Cahuilla use, Kumeyaay use, the Cupeno use here in southern California, even the Chumash further up, and your Tongva and your different people. We do a coiling technique. Okay? So have you ever seen those baskets in museums, etc., you’ll see that one by one, they’re coiling. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They’re coiling the Juncus textilis. They’re coiling around with sticks that they use, which would be deer grass. And the center star that you see in the middle [creates a circle with her fingers on her left hand] is done with yucca. And sometimes it’s also done with Juncus on Juncus, or Juncus on Deer Grass. It all depends who the weaver is, etc. Since we have to gather that, and we can’t find it all over, you know what we do, we try to really work with the forestries, and private owners, and people. Try and get them to plant. It’s not easy to plant the Juncus textilis because it’s not going to grow everywhere. So, there’s different areas that do have it. If you want to see Juncus textilis, where it’s at, you can see it in the public, it’s in the public discovery center there in Carlsbad. LK: Oh. DC: They have a good—kind of like a little garden, that they have it growing there. And the deer grass and the yucca. And that was done because we worked with the Discovery Center years ago with Cal State San Marcos and the students. And we did all the planting there, when it was there. So, if you want to see that, I would go there and visit it. And you can see what the Juncus textilis 14 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 looks like. See, uh—[sighs]—but doing basketry is that—what I have here is samples. I did bring a basket. I just brought these hair pieces that I’ve made for my two granddaughters [shows beautiful, small round woven hairpieces]. Can you see them okay?— LK: Yes, yes. DC: Out of Juncus. If you see, this one here is a little bit darker, and the black there [now holding only one of the hairpieces, with a woven black ring in the mid-region of the weave, and gesturing to this area] is dyed Juncus, okay? Now, that Juncus, um, was dyed with—[looking at the hairpiece now, more intensely]—I don’t know, this was given to me, [chuckling] the dyed Juncus, so I’m assuming they did it with, um, elderberry leaves, okay, and um, put in the Juncus, and in a can, okay, or, or like a coffee can that’s all rusty. And what you do—you put the rusted can in there. You have your Juncus already split and put into the weaver, and then you put, um, into a coffee can [gesturing to show the size of the can] and it’s all rusty. You put some rusty nails in it at the bottom, and then you start layering it with the Juncus textilis. It’s the process. And on top of that you put elderberry leaves, and you keep going ‘til you fill it. [gestures indicating layers building up] Then you fill it with water. LK: Oh. DC: And then you let the water—and then you put that can somewhere so it can ferment. It’s like I tell you, it’s got to get all yucky and like, rotten, and what it is is that it probably turns black. And it’s—and you’re getting the iron—what do you call that? Iron oxide?— LK: Uh-huh. DC: —from the, from the nails and from the rusty can. Then when you empty it out, your Juncus is black. LK: Wow. DC: Dyed black. And that’s also what’s coming from the elderberry leaves. Another way that our ancestors did it was that during the creeks they knew where there was iron oxide in the soil, in the sand. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They would get their Juncus, and they would bury it in that sand. They’d come back, weeks later or whatever, and dig it out, and it’ll be black. Another way they do it, up in northern California, and in here too, is using walnuts, because we had, you know—black walnuts is a native plant of California. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And so they would take the shells, crunch ‘em up, you know shells, the outside shell, they’re called, and if you’ve ever picked walnuts, you know that your hands get black? LK: Yeah. 15 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: Okay, because that—on the hull—because you take that, well they’ll take that hull and chop it up, and then put in water, and put your Juncus in there, and with the walnut there, and they’ll turn black, too. LK: Wow. DC: That’s just one other way. It takes time. And they also use the acorn husk, or the shell of the acorn, and the black acorn, or any of the acorns, crush ‘em up again and put them in water, put the Juncus in there, and then you have to leave it. So it is a time consuming deal. So these are two headpieces I did. Now, when we get to the schools—when you get to the school— [holds up a small woven basket] this is a little basket that I’ve had for years. But this is not a native material. This material that we use for teaching is from, okay, rattan. Everybody knows what rattan is. Rattan has a pith in it. Rattan and bamboo look similar but bamboo is hollow. Rattan is got the pith. To get the pith out of the rattan, pull it, press it, and make cane. This is how you get cane. LK: Oh. DC: And so what we use here, is that you can buy cane in different rounds, or different sizes or gauges. You can get it flat. You can get it round. Uh, we get the round, and this is called Cherokee Single Wall twine. I call it, uh—we have our own twine, excuse me, but it’s not like this one, the Luiseño. And why I use Cherokee is because one of the easiest ones that the kids can use at school. It’s the closest thing that I can get to the river cane, from the Cherokee and Choctaw and the people there, in Oklahoma and that area, will use, because they go and pick their river cane. We don’t have river cane here in California. If we do have it, I wouldn’t want to go down there because it’s probably contaminated. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It’s got all those other things, and they probably sprayed it a lot with pesticides. And so this is what we teach in school, and I call it “Cherokee Single Walled Twine.” We make the starts. The kids can make one of these [holding up a skein of yarn] within an hour, even the adults, over two hours. And maybe not this size, maybe a little bit bigger. But this way, they don’t have any allergies or con― such so far, uh, getting sick from it. Because, I can’t guarantee our native traditional plants that we do use aren’t—it doesn’t have some type of pesticides on it, or some poisons on it that we’re not aware of. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And we use our mouth [wipes her right hand across her mouth] a lot for our third hand when we’re weaving with our traditional materials. LK: Because you have to keep them— DC: We have to keep them very moist. LK: Moist. 16 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: Everything has to moist. It has to be pliable. It has to be moist. If you’re going to be weaving with almost anything, even with cloth, even with weeds, even with flowers or stems or, you know, branches. We do use willow, though, okay? Aurora willow, or the willow tree. We make baskets out of that too. If you ever notice the big acorn granaries, they call ‘em, have you ever seen them on pictures— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —that the tribes had next to their kiichas or their ewaks for here in southern California, even northern California. They have great big acorn granaries. Those are made out of willow. They’re woven green, and when they’re woven green, uh, then they let―they dry. But do they use willow? Willow is a natural insecticide. It keeps the insects away from the acorns. And that’s why they have them high up on a stilt like, or platform, to keep their small animal away from them, or whatever. But if they do―these small animals try to get to the acorn, then they can also plug it up, or whatever. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But those acorn granaries can last for hundreds of years, you know. They’ve found, when they’ve done research, you know, in the mountains or at their villages, you’ll see a granary that is still up. But, it’s a natural insecticide. People don’t realize that the willow is a natural insecticide— LK: That’s interesting. DC: —to weave with it. LK: So, in traditional weaving, was it always the women, the tribal women, that did the baskets or did men— DC: I would say— LK: —create baskets as well? DC: Uh, yeah. Traditionally, mostly it was the women and the girls, okay? Because you’ve got to think about—before contact, especially here in California, we’re the last native people that were contacted as they came west— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―our baskets were used for cooking, for storage, for gifting, for birthing, for death. And that was our—they were utilized for everything. And that’s why they can say that “Mission baskets were woven so tight that they can hold water.” LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Well, yes and no. The only reason why they can hold water is that the deer grass in what they’ve coiled around swells. [laughs] LK: Oh. 17 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: So, but they also had the—and when they cooked in them, they used another plant that we do. It’s more fire resistant. And that’s your Trius lobata, or your sumac. And that’s kind of―it’s white. Have you ever seen baskets that have more of a white bottom to it? LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That’s because it’s usually with sumac, and that one has a resistance to fire. But, only be— resistance, how can I say this—fire tolerant but not to a point. When they cooked in baskets, the cooking baskets, they were done with a stick that they’d keep moving [circles her right arm as if stirring], and they were used with river rocks, hot rocks in there. Central northern California used lava rocks a lot, but that had been tumbled in the rivers. But the ones that are here, we would probably get the smooth river rocks, and then you heat them up and then you put them into the basket, and you have to keep stirring them [makes a stirring motion with her right hand] into that food. Men probably did the baskets that were, um, that were for fishing, like the fish traps, or your great big, huge granaries,― LK: Oh, yeah. DC: Okay, on that? And they’re made out of the willow. Um, they didn’t make them—northern California, they made ‘em a lot of out of the different plants up there, the branches there. But, almost all of them are made out of willow, you know, because it was pliable to work with. But, that’s your bigger gathering baskets or fish traps, etc., you know. But mainly, it’s mostly the women. But men did do that. We do have men today that are top weavers, um, so, we even have one in our tribe that’s a fantastic weaver [chuckles]. LK: So, it’s a form of functional art. I mean, ‘cuz it is a form of art. That’s what— DC: Well, it didn’t become a form of art until it—until I would say, after contact— LK: Right. DC: —because it was a utility that we had to use, you know. It was something. LK: Right. It was functional. DC: Yeah, and I say, you know, when pots and pans came out, I, I would have been one that threw the baskets away. [laughs] Let’s use a pot, too, you know. LK: [laughs] DC: It’s just like when you gather your foods, you know. I gather the acorn and I make that wiiwish, we call it, the acorn mush. I use a processor to crack all my—you know, to mix it up, you know, and get the nuts, ground it down. You know, if you ever see these, um,—how can I say these—we call them gathering, gathering spots or metates are these big rocks that have the holes in them—the grinding area, they call ‘em grinding stones, grinding— Can you imagine the woman that’s sitting there, or a child, or whatever, pounding acorn to get a meal out of it, you know, to get it real fine like a flour. And, and how long they pound it up there to get those holes in there. How old! You can just tell the age of the—by looking at these grinding areas, or 18 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 grinding rocks that you see, how, how hard they must have done it, so it just—it didn’t happen overnight, to make those holes, you know, in those rocks. It had to be― LK: Right. DC: [gesturing in a pounding motion] ―years and years of processing. And, uh, I’ve tried it. We have two in our backyard, and I didn’t last five minutes. Raising that rock, that pestle, over my head and pounding the acorn, okay? I mean, I couldn’t, after that, I couldn’t raise my hand after five minutes, or even three minutes. My mom was laughing at me out there― LK: [chuckles] DC: ―you know, and I said “Our women must have had—the women must have had shoulders and— LK: Strong arms. DC: —biceps, strong arms, to do that, daily, every day, to get the acorn to get it ready for the mush because that was a staple for the people, you know, because the acorn—wiiwish, we call it—or the, um, what do they call it, with the Kumeyaay, um—we call it wiiwish, they call it, um, okay, I’ve got to think about it. I know it starts with an ‘s.’ But anyway, um, everyday. Because, see, that’s 100% protein. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The acorn is 100% protein. So, it was a staple and it was also a replacement for when they didn’t have any meat, you know, so it was always used. So, when these processors came through, they said “Diania, how come you don’t do it the traditional way?” I said “Uh-uh” [shaking her head] I said “my ancestors would have popped in that, those electrical things to plug in, they would have used it too.” I said “There’s no way I’m going to go out there and you know, [she and Linda start laughing] and pound.” I mean it’s kind of like a joke but it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s—you know, you know, when progress comes, I’m sure they, they would have—they wouldn’t have stayed with their old ways. That’s how I look at it. [chuckles] LK: Circling back, you mentioned a few institutions like Cal State San Marcos, The Discovery Center in Carlsbad, CIBA, and you’re part of the Pesticide― DC: Oh, Tribal― LK: ―with the National Parks? DC: Well, I belong also to the Tribal Pesticide Program Council through EPA. And that’s because of the pesticides and insecticides and stuff that effect our, our plants. A lot of people don’t realize that, when they see our traditional plants, they think they’re weeds. LK: Oh. DC: And they’ll spray them. Or also, that, um―there’s drifts that happen and if you have native plants that are growing near there, and you’re not aware of the native plants that are there, and if 19 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 how they’re spraying, and if the wind comes up [she makes a “whoosh” sound, and waves her hand in a broad sweep to indicate wind over field], the drift will go over there. There’s no signs that tell you that “Hey, we’re going to be spraying today!” LK: Mm-hmm. DC: County doesn’t even tell you that, I mean, unless they come around, you know. The mosquitoes, like in Central California, Sacramento, they post it, because with all those rice fields that they have up there, they have to. They have to do that, spraying for the mosquitoes. And they do it by helicopter. And I’ve been up there when they’ve done that, and they’ve got notices all over―“Shut Your Windows”, “Shut Your House”, “Stay in Your House Between This Hour and This Hour”― because they’re coming in and just sprayin’ and it goes all over your cars, etc., out there. In the University of Davis, Woodland, in that area. So, but they don’t do that too much down here, okay. So, when you don’t know about it, and then you see the plants and you’re going to go through it, you don’t know if it’s been sprayed or anything, or drifted on. And then you pick it, and then you get it, and you put it in your mouth, or whatever, you smell it to see if it is, you get hit. And I’ve had, that’s how I got into pesticides. I went to pick a plant that I thought that the only way you can identify it is to smell it, so I popped it [gestures breaking a stem open] like you know you see you pop it, and I stuffed it up one nostril and within five minutes my whole side of my face went red [gestures a swipe across right side of her face]. Rushed in to Rincon Indian Health Center. They said “Diania, what did you do?” I says “okay, this is where I was at.” And, I had a chemical reaction, that it was sprayed, that it somehow got sprayed. And so I was on―the first time I got steroids, and shot with steroids and it’s five-four-three-two-one [gestures counting on fingers], you know, you’re taking all those pills, five days. Found out that the golf courses are the worst [chuckles] people, or development, or whatever, that use herbicides, pesticides, insecticides, any type of your “cides” they said, because they want to keep their grass green and they want to keep their flowers beautiful and colorful. They don’t want any rodents. They don’t want anything upsetting that golf course out there. And if you have any native plants that are near there, uh, they’re probably going to get hit with that type of thing. And the golf course is another one that doesn’t tell you that they’re spraying. I don’t, I’ve never gone by a golf course that said “Hey, we’re spraying today. There’s a sign.” And I worry about the people that are out there golfing, okay. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, and I love to watch golf. Don’t get me wrong. I mean, I enjoy, I’m not a golfer but I love watching the Masters and stuff. And it goes through my head, when these guys are out there, and the women, you know, and they’re walking in it, but you don’t know if they’ve been told about the spraying, or you know, if they have an asthma thing, or, or something like that. So what happened was that I got into pesticide with CIBA. [chuckles, and reaches to her left for a brochure] So then I was working, we worked with a brochure [laughs, and shows for the camera a brochure, then reads the front of it] they call, it’s called “Pesticides: What Basket Weavers Should Know.” But, this doesn’t just tell you for basket weavers. It’s for everybody― LK: Mm-hmm. 20 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 DC: ―okay? And the contact people [flips the brochure over, and points to the back side of the brochure] like for here in Southern California, you’ve got the contact if you’ve had this. It just tells you what to look for on native plants, if they look dead, if they’re doing anything. [opens brochure and looks inside] I’m trying to get EPA right now to try to start making us some more of these, but if I have some more, [turns the inside of the brochure to face the camera] like if I gave you, you know, some handouts that you could make your own, you know. They don’t have to be in color. [closes brochure, but still holds it up] But, it’s just an awareness about pesticides when you’re out there. And it, you don’t have to be gathering. You can just be taking a trail ride out there, or hiking. Your animals could come back with pesticides or insecticides on them, and then you have your kids rubbing them [gestures petting an animal], and playing with them, and hugging them, and then you wonder also why your child is coming out with a rash. Why are they coughing? Why are they sneezing? And so, most of the time, it’s some type of spraying and it’s out there. So I sit on that, that, across the United States, we’ve got all the tribes. But the bigger tribes like the, your Black Feet and your Crow, etc. you know, they, they lease their land, because they’ve got millions of acres on their reservations. So they lease their lands to Montanyo [sounds unsure]. One of that does soy beans, and corn, and all these big guys. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But they need to have the pesticides, but they’re trying to regulate it more so especially on native ground or Indian country, because, um, they don’t want to be digesting it. They don’t want this corn and everything that is going out to the public to be digested, because if you go on to a lot of your other farms and stuff like this, they’re not telling you what the pest―what is being used. But the, in the Indian country, they want to make sure it’s safe. They don’t want to get sick. They don’t want their own families to get sick. So, it’s a big political thing. But what had happened in northern California, how this—how CIBA became involved in the 90s, about ’93, is that the weavers in northern California get their―they use a lot of roots. LK: Mmm— DC: And they use a lot of willow roots. So, during the―on the rivers of northern California, they go high. But when they recede down, that’s when the roots stick out from the, from the banks where all the willow trees are growing. And so they go into the water, and they’re picking from the banks of the river, all the roots coming out [gesturing pulling something towards her]. LK: Uh-huh. DC: Okay? When you kind of think of, when the water is high [gestures raising up as in water level], this is where the roots are going. They’re going to get water for the, for the trees. Well, industry up nor―up, up river, where they call, where they, where it is coming down into the river, they were dumping chemicals into the water— LK: Hmmm— DC: —as a dump. You’re talking about the lumber mills, some of the uh, other industrial things are doing it. That’s what was stuck in the salmon, also. And so the weavers were doing it. Then 21 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 all of a sudden they were finding their elders the weavers were getting cancer around their mouth [gesturing around her mouth] LK: Oh, no. DC: And they were getting cancer inside. They were losing their teeth [pointing at her teeth]. And they couldn’t figure out why. Because it wasn’t just happening to just one tribe. It was happening to all the ones that, that were gathering, you know. You’re talking the Pomo, the Uroquois, the Hupas, the Kuroks. All the ones that use this type of material. And so in ’93, they found out that, they had EPA come out. They had this whole thing. They wrote a paper on it, a risk assessment, and found out that it was chemicals in the water when they tested the waters on these big ones. And so that started, for CIBA anyway, with the pesticides— LK: Huh. DC: —to get on there, to be more sort of a―― how can I― a public, you know, awareness. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You can only educate. You can’t stop it. You can only, you know. That’s why you have all these, um, lawsuits right now, happening in northern California and their waters. Look at the salmon. What’s happening, not just in California, but in Oregon and Washington with― because of the chemicals. Uh, you can’t, sometimes you can’t even eat, you know, some of that salmon because they can’t even go upstream, because when they come upstream, they come back sick. And the worst one is in Alaska. LK: Right. DC: See, people don’t want to hear about Alaska. But everything that we use down here in, in, in the “mainland” they call it, the chemicals, anything, okay, it all goes into our atmosphere, right? [points upward with both hands]. I mean, you spray, and it’s going to go up. LK: Yep. DC: Okay, when it goes up, where does it go? It goes to the Poles. [gestures as if touching top and bottom of a globe] North Pole, north pole is getting it mostly. South Pole is not as much, because they don’t get that drift like they did. But what it did, it collects up here [circles her hand in a rotating motion] in the atmosphere, and what it is, over Alaska in the Arctic area. That’s why it’s cleaning out too. Because it’s just going around, all these chemicals. It, it forms a warmth and a heat. And that why, that’s what’s, and now when it rains up there, it drops down [laughs, and gestures as if something is falling] into their land and into their trees, and into their plants, and they’re contaminated. And it’s all because of us down here, meaning, I’m saying “us”, mainland and you know, uh, North, Central, South America, all of us, you know, Europe, that using all these different chemicals and things like this, and drifts up [raises her hands up], collects in that atmosphere up there [circles in the air with her left hand], goes to the North Pole. It’s going around and around. It rains, or whatever, and it comes down, [indicates rain coming down, with both hands] and that’s why Alaska is having all those problems right now with their 22 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 food [gestures as if counting on her left hand], climate change, the heating, etc. And, uh, a lot of it is the use of chemicals and pesticides. LK: Well, what started out as a― DC: [chuckles] LK: ―lessons in patience for you― DC: [bursts out laughing] LK: You’ve expanded your knowledge to all aspects of basketry and, and working with other organizations. So, I know those aren’t the only ones you work with, though, and I can list a couple just to jog your memory. I know you work with Camp Pendleton. DC: Oh, well yeah, well, Camp Pendleton is― LK: And Daly Ranch. DC: Daly Ranch. Well, Daly Ranch was because [sighs] I went to, I went to be a docent. Okay? Because I had to find something to do after, you know, I, and that I, before I had my surgery, I became a docent, and I wanted to do the trails. Okay? The native trails. But when I had, after my surgery, I couldn’t do the walking anymore. And so they did have a small “Indian program” you know, on there. And one of the rangers I, you know, I, I love him dearly, he’s still there, we worked together, he was the one that was doing the Native American aspect of the Daly Ranch, what they would give to the public and school district. Fifteen minutes [gestures making air quotes] is all he would have. So I went through his training, on the docents, and he brought in a native person from souther―from Kumeyaay territory, I think, a weaver. I can’t think who the weaver is now. She did a display and stuff. And so Ranger Robert, I think I mentioned him, he did a lot, because of his sons were in Boy Scouts, you know, Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Eagle Scouts, and they had to do a lot of the native areas of, on there. So he made a lot of the artifacts that the Daly Ranch uses and I use right now for exhibit. And he learned about the plants, and the foods, etc. Well, he went to serve wiiwish, acorn. And when he served it, it was great. And I just went “What?”, you know. And it, it was [gesturing as if saying ‘no’ with her fingers] I don’t know. And I’m going asking “How did you do this?” Well, he used the acorn, but he didn’t use the acorns that we normally would use. He used a different type of acorn. And how he fixed it, or whatever. And so, when we had our barbeque when we graduated from the docent class, I went home [laughs] and I made the ______________. This is supposed to look like, okay, you know, our wiiwish does that. And he says “well, teach me!” So we started working together. Then they asked me if I would come in and do the native American part, you know, with the Daly Ranch. Daly Ranch through the 7th graders and the whole school district, in Escondido School District, they run the 7th graders through there for 6 weeks, in the Daly Ranch, twice a week, like a Tuesday and a Wednesday, from 8 o’clock until 2. And we do about two hundred some a day. LK: Wow! DC: I’m the native American part of it, and they do plants, and then they do insects, and then they do the large predators, you know, and then they, the tricks. But, I’m the native American 23 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 portion of it. It started out as 15 minutes, and now all of a sudden, now I’m doing about 35 minutes, and just expanding it— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —to get them knowing that this was our first―you know, Daly Ranch is on the, one the land of native peoples. There’s, there’s areas out there on Daly Ranch that the public can’t see, that know that they’re―they live there. They have artifacts, etc., on that. So, um, and I got asked to, to do that. It’s all voluntarily. If I get paid from anything for doing that―I’ve been doing that going on 16 years now―it’s a surprise for me, because they do it through grants. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: I started out, like I said, volunteering, and it had expanded it to bigger working with Fred Wood, who’s a retired school teacher, you know, from a junior high, 8th grade. And I started with my cousin, Kathy Wallace, who’s our story teller now, and her son Brandon―he was about 9 or 10 years old―we would do it together. Well, it got to a point to where she expanded out [gestures expansion thrusting her right hand out away from her], you know, he got older. And so, I had Teeter Romero used to come down for me and help me, from San Juan Capistrano. And then, also now, I got it for myself and it’s hard to get people to want to take it over. Because the first question they ask “Well, how much do you get?” And I says “Nope.” I says “I can’t guarantee you anything on that. If I get paid, it’s a surprise for me at the end of the six weeks, depending on how much the grant through—It’s through a grant, that they get― LK: Right. DC: ―that. That’s to the Friends of the Daly Ranch. Even though the Daly Ranch is owned by the city of Escondido, this Friends of the Daly Ranch and the docents do it because of they want to. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The only ones that really get paid on there is the rangers, because they’re employees of the city of Escondido. LK: Right. DC: And uh― LK: But that’s not the only institution that you do work. You, you go to elementary schools and― DC: Well, yeah, I have. I did elementary schools. I think, you know, we do―like San Elijo. We’ve been doing that for seven years, and that’s during that one basket that I just showed you, with the Cherokee style. We do third graders there. [sighs] Before they built that new elementary school, we were doing anywhere from 2 to 300 hundred a day, in well, one day. We had it for 35 minutes, at 70, at the time. And then, because they had a program going. Kathy would be the story teller. They had adobe making. They had―and so these children are going [gestures in a 24 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 round circle with her right hand] all day, every half hour they’re going to another, another thing. I would have four weavers come in to help me. And then we would give a quick 10-minutes, 5minute thing with parent volunteers, to come in and help to, to and I think you’ve even done it before, [chuckles] to just help these students. And so you’d have all these third graders in one room, sittin’ on the floor, on these things, ten, ten to a circle so I know it’s seventy, because we had seventy cir―seven circles in there. We’d done seventy at the time, forty-five at the time, and then within thirty-five minutes, you know, they’re done. If they didn’t finish this basket [holds up small basket which can fit in the palm of her hand] in their time, then they would take them with them and complete it in their ar—in their art department students. So we’ve been doing that for quite a while. I’ve done the thing with Cal State San Marcos with their students up there, giving the demonstrations, etc., given a talk. And then even teaching the students, you know, the basketry. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Same thing with the senior center, in El Corazon [gestures to Linda]. LK: El Corazon. DC: We just did that for three days, and they really enjoyed it. LK: We cannot leave out one other entity, which was the Mission— DC: —Oh! LK: —San Luis Rey. How could we forget that. DC: [laughs] You know, she’s sees, she’s getting me into the basketry thing, here. Um, San Luis Rey—people don’t understand. San Luis Rey is one of the missions here that is not part of the diocese, or owned by the Catholic Church, per se. They’re owned by the Franciscan order of the Catholic Church. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Or, errr, I’m not—I’m a Catholic, but I’m not that kind. I’m not a practicing Catholic. Let’s put it that way. But, um, so they’re owned by the Franciscans. San Luis Rey, Santa Barbara, and there’s one more, and I’m going to better learn that one too because there’s three missions in the state of California that are not part of the “Catholic.” San Juan Capistrano is part of the Orange County diocese. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And they bring in the most money for the missions in the state of California. San Juan Capistrano does, because you’ve got to pay to get in, you know, and everything else. But anyway. The friars—well, they’re not—they’re friars—the Franciscan order, um, are there, at the San Luis Rey Mission. You don’t know that they’re there, because they’re not really public other than when you see ‘em walking around in their brown robes. They have a retreat there. They live there. They study there. They go through their schooling, sometimes, there at the San Luis Rey Mission. And I was notified by Gwen, the director, and Helena, whose at the museum, that they 25 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 were having a retreat there. And they wanted a activity, and so Gwen says “Contact Diania, and see if they want to do a basketry.” Well, Father David, or Brother David—he’s up at Santa Barbara now—he used to be here at San Luis Rey, and my brother used to work with him. And he knew I did baskets. That’s why he probably agreed. But these Franciscans were coming from all over the world. They weren’t just coming from the United States. They were coming as novices; ones that are almost going to graduate into their order; some that were graduated already into the order; some that were retiring from the order. Some they didn’t speak English. And, um, there was forty, almost fifty of them. LK: Forty-six. DC: Forty-six of them, and they were there for a week [chuckles] And they asked “Diania, would you mind doing, you know, a demonstration and talking about the basketry, or people, etc.?” My brother videoed it, you know, and I haven’t really even seen it yet. I think he gave you a copy, right? LK: It’s great. DC: Okay. I have to give Roberta—not Roberta, but Reinette and Ella Sue, I think, also. But, um, I says “Okay, I need four weavers, and uh, to do this.” And we did that in the back of the mission, and here I was expecting—when we were setting up, all of us were expecting—there’s Linda Kallas, Ella Sue Snyder (she’s a Acjachemen), Reinette (I can’t pronounce her last name. My cousin—Reinette Omah, Olvera, but I can’t pro—) LK: Olvera. DC: Yeah, but she goes by that Italian married— LK: Contreras. DC: No, no. It starts with an “A” [indicates a letter “A” as if writing in the air]. Anyway. LK: Okay. DC: And you, and me, okay. Linda was—Linda, who was going to interview me, she goes “Me?” and I says “Oh yeah. You know how to do these! You’ve been sittin’ with us for a while. You can come in here.” And we’re going to do the Cherokee style basket. I just gave a talk about our traditional materials, etc. So, we get all set up and here come these men, you know, coming through. You know, I, I was expecting them to come into—with their robes on. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, their brown robes. That’s what I was expecting. Here these men come in. They’re in shorts. They got T-shirts on that say “Surf’s Up!” you know. All these different things coming home with these hats, sandals, barefoot, you know. I mean, they’re coming from the retreat area, you know, tennis shoes on, and all different ages. And it was interesting because I’m going “Whoa, okay.” You would have, you would have put them on the street. You would not have known that they were friars, okay. And, uh, like I said, all ages. They had a—we had a 26 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 good time, laughing, etc. Like I said, we do have that, um, if you knew my brother did with that. They were all anxious. They made beautiful baskets. [laughs] LK: They were so impressed with you, and um— DC: You know. LK: They were so grateful and so full of gratitude for learning that skill— DC: Yeah. Well, we took a lot— LK: They really enjoyed it. DC: Well, we took a picture, a group picture, at the end and then we had all their baskets on top of that one rocker area. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And you can see that these baskets—[turning to her left, and reaching for something] I showed you this [holds up the little basket that she showed previously in the interview] and this is mine. But that doesn’t mean that you’re going to make the same thing like this. Your basket is, is going to be completely different. Even though they start out the same, your basket will be with what you create with your hands. [puts down basket] And so that’s what they were really impressed with, because we had some beautiful baskets. You had some real nice round ones [gestures a round object]. You had flat ones [gestures flat object]. You had long ones [gestures a tall object] and they just had a good time. LK: They cherished them, right? DC: Oh, it was a—it was—it was—it was rewarding, you know, on that. But that’s what happens when we do that. We did it with the seniors— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —out there, and they all thought that they were going to be making their own little ba— baskets that we showed them. And then when they finally was looking at it, even the men there, you know, everything was different. And so, that’s what I enjoyed about the baskets. Even with the kids, you know, they don’t— No two baskets are alike. LK: Exactly. And, expanding on that, we have the elementary school named Pablo Tac after a Luiseño native that was educated in the Mission. But also, you’re—you have an opportunity to demonstrate there coming up, correct? DC: Yes, coming up on November 4th, 2022. I’ll be demonstrating and so will Roberta— hopefully Reinette will be there—traditional weaving. We’re not going to be teaching. That’s probably, hopefully coming up next year. LK: Yes. DC: You know, on that. We just had the demonstration also at Camp Pendleton. 27 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Uh, there. I’m a docent for the Santa Margarita Ranch and Lost Forest Ranch, docent there at Camp Pendleton. But I’ve been working with the Archaeology department since, uh, ugh, ‘90s with Stan Berryman and then Danielle [Page], and now Kelly Bracken is in charge of it so—. Because we have a lot of sites there on ran—on Camp Pendleton. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: People don’t realize it, that we’ve got over 600 some building sites there, and sites, and sacred sites, etc., on Camp Pendleton, so we’re kept close with the—they’re kept close with the different tribes. And since I’m the weaver in the native plants, I have a different aspect of it. I try to make that, if the plants are out there, please, you know, don’t do this with them, and stuff. So, they notify us that if we have native plants there, do you want us to move them. Do you want to collect them, etc. They do have a native garden there that we do collect the deer grass from, which is up there by the pavilion, behind the new hospital. Um, that way I know they’re not being sprayed, when we go there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: We just did elderberry tree, um, [chuckles] gathering from the berries, and I made some for your, for you for your husband. I thought I was making jelly, and it ended up being syrup. But he likes, he loves it, you know, ‘cuz we gathered there at Camp Pendleton, because [chuckles again], because then I know that, um, also those aren’t being sprayed. And, so there’s different areas by Camp Pendleton. Plus, with the cultural, okay. And why I started with the, the new General, the Commander-in-Chief, there, at –I can’t think of it. I just—I worked with her, and um, was—a— how?—docent there for the Santa Margarita Ranch. They were going to be the ones dealing with the party. She had her fiesta there, a couple weeks ago. And, um, I didn’t want to just be the docent dressed in the—how can I say this?— We dressed in this Spanish shawl. I don’t know if you’ve seen the docents from center. [gestures to someone other than Linda Kallas, seated to her left] You’ve been there, right? And, uh—Tanis. And, uh, we have that costume [still looking to the other person] or the regalia that they use. I’m comin’ in, because I put these on [hold up her necklace] and I’m, you know, trying to keep the Native American thing going there. And you heard me [points to person off camera, and continues to talk to him/her] this last meeting, you know, and Larry was over here [points to opposite direction, and laughs]. Uh, it’s that, uh, react? That we’ve forgotten, you know, on that. And they do think—they kind of forget us. But anyway, and so I says [still talking to the person off camera] “I’m not going to be a docent. I just—can I come in and do traditional weaving, you know, with our people,” with her. And she just said [shaking her head]—she says “heck yes, please, let’s come in” and stuff. So, um, I had the drapes on there. I wasn’t going to go San Luis Rey Band because we were all San Luis Rey Band members that were going to do this traditional weaving demonstration. But we’re all CIBA members also. So, I used this California Basket weavers —uh, weaving drape on our table. They put us up there, you know, with the rest of them, and, um, I had Mark, who is our weaver, one of our top weavers for our tribe. He had—he was demonstrating his baskets. We were all doing a demonstration, and, and appreciating that, you know, on there. That’s the last 28 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 thing we did on the traditional, you know, weaving thing with Camp Pendleton. Then we’re going to do this one November 4. LK: And then the Jubilation of the Valley Festival? DC: Oh yeah, we’re going to have, coming up in November— LK: —the Luiseño Day. Mm-hmm— DC: —Spirit of the Valley— LK: —Spirit of the Valley. DC: —with Studio Ace. And we’re going to be doing baskets there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And I’m going to be doing teaching the Cherokee style— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —okay? It’s not gonna—it’s not Luiseño style. And so we’re going to be doing, uh, [sighs] all day [laughs]— LK: And you’ve been invited— DC: —from 11 to 3. LK: —to do basket weaving at a senior dance at the— DC: Aw, come on now, [gestures pushing away from herself with her right hand] I know. LK: [laughs] DC: It’s just a—thank you, Linda. Um, that’s December 15th. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And that’s coming in because of the senior center over there. That’s just an activity they wanted us to do. Plus, we do basket traditional weaving in front of the Mission, hopefully, every 4th Sunday of the month. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But sometimes we don’t, because we have other things to do. So it’s almost a contact— they—a website, or contact one of us to do that. We do it at Rancho Guajome, but we’ll kind of travel with our weaving person. Um, one of the things I want to say is that I do get feedback sometimes from our own Indian people—“why are you in front of the Mission, Diania?” okay, you know. Because they see a pictures of the background where we’re weaving, and, um—“why are you doing it on the, on the Mission grounds?” I mean, you have this animosity with some of our people that have gone through the Mission system and their ancestors were really treated bad, etc. I’m not going to say the missions were the best things that happened to the indigenous 29 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 people in the state of California, or even in the other missionaries throughout the, throughout the different tribal people— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —in Indian country. But, I’m trying to tell them “I’ll let you know. I’m not there to, to praise the Mission. Don’t get me wrong, okay? I have my aspects with them, too, but I’m there— we’re there, really, to respect and honor our ancestors that are buried there.” I’ve got a lot of family that’s buried there in that old cemetery. I know our ancestors had built that mission and helped it. We’ve got a lot of ancestors that are buried in those grounds that aren’t in the cemeteries. When you had your epidemics, the pox, the small pox epidemic— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —there’s a lot of burials in, on those grounds at the Mission that had to do multiple burials real fast. So, we’re there honoring our people. I’m not there to honor the Mission. And, I have to let them know that. I mean, don’t get me wrong. I was raised with the Catholic there. My mom went to school there. My great-grandfather, he was part, you know. Every Sunday it seemed like the Father was always there in his house at the ranch there in the valley, having dinner. But I don’t really have that, um, hatred, or whatever you want to call it— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —to the Mission system. Yes, they know that they’ve done wrong. My brother and I sit on the committee for the 225 anniversary that’s coming up, honoring San Luis Rey Mission. I’m there on it, and so is he, to make sure the indigenous people aren’t forgotten. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They’ve got to have something that’s, that’s still representing, you know, them with the ethnic group. We have our powwow there that’s been there for 23 years, you know. We just haven’t had it since Covid. And that’s another thing that’s on the Mission grounds. You have some of the indigenous people who will not come to our powwow because it’s on Indi—on mission grounds. But, to me, that’s personal for them. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The Mission has not been at a controversy for us. Yes, we know some of our ancestors were treated wrong, you know. You can walk in that Mission, and, um, you can see different things that, um, and the stories you hear, you know, and the longondria <sic> that’s going down there, where they had to do the washing and stuff. You’ve got Pablo Tac. You know, he came from that Mission, and was taught, who can, you know, going back to Barcelona, you know, and Rome also, and is buried over there, and died. But, um, you—we—how can I say this? San Luis Rey Mission, they, the Luiseños around the Mission San Luis Rey weren’t as— LK: It was a— DC: —progressive as 30 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: —Luiseño village, correct? DC: Yes, it was a Luiseño village there, but they didn’t attempt to burn it down like the Kumeyaay did, at the old—in San Diego. They burned that mission down three times [holds up three fingers]. But it comes with people, and how they took it, um, as a, as a rewards system, or whatever. Okay? They were fed! Can you imagine? I mean, ee were nomads and gatherers and movers. Meaning nomadic, it’s not like we moved all over [gestures in a sweeping motion]. It was like we went from ocean to the mountains [points from right to left, indicating movement from west to east] to gather and to the desert [points forward]. You see what I’m saying. As being nomadic. We didn’t have “a permanent” village. We knew what village we came from, but if we had to go, you had people that probably stayed there, the elders, and then the rest went out to gather. But we weren’t a warring people. Sure, we probably fought with the Kumeyaay and any others that came through. But with the Kumeyaay people, they were warring people. Now, they came from the, from the Colorado area. I mean, you’re looking at warriors, you know, came across, and when they were doing that with the missions and stuff, you know, you—they—it was on their land. They, they didn’t like it. They, you know, they, and they, to me, with San Diego Mission, um, and you read the history on that, it, it was, it was harsh. Where here, Father Peri — 'cuz remember, San Luis Rey was the 19th mission. It was the one that—it was at almost the end that it was built. Okay? And San Luis Capistrano really was the 2nd one. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then they come around there [circles her arm] and they built San Luis Rey, 19-what, a number 19, in 1798. Okay? So, you’re looking at all these other missions that were built way before that. Father Peri, he—his system was more with the native people. Yes, you could come, but he let ‘em build around him, also. But it was not the Fathers that were chased in the mission, the Indians. It was the soldiers at the—that’s who were supposedly protecting the Fathers. They were the ones that went out and chased the Indians down. They were the ones that did the punishments, when they had their, their, their soldiers—the ones that were in charge—they took it to their head, you know, I mean, to do the punishment, because as far as native indigenous people were below the Mexican people. You had the Indians [gestures making layers, indicating layers of hierarchy], then you had the Mexicans, the Spaniards, you understand, that, that— LK: Were higher, you know. DC: —hierarchy. So, um, I don’t have that too much on there, you know, with that. Everybody has their own. I have it because the missions only because they kept ‘em down [gestures downward with her right hand], and they did use ‘em—I wouldn’t—I don’t use the word slave, but they—I guess, slave labor. They were the laborers, where else they really didn’t—they didn’t get paid. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, on there. And then when the missions were done, and the secularization, when they did that, they were lost. They cried, you know. I mean, they were starving, because of that—and then what had happened, the ranchers got us here, Picos, the Marrons, the Couts, all of 31 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 the rest of them—they went and destroyed the mission. They were, they were tearing it apart. They were taking the beams. They were taking all the statues. They were taking the different things, and using them to build. You know, you get some of these ranchers, they have some of the beams on that are from—that are from the Mission. The artifacts. LK: Wild. DC: You know. But you don’t hear that side of the story. That’s why at Camp Pendleton and Rancho Santa Margarita and them, when it, they hid the stories and that—“Come on, you guys, you know. Pico wasn’t the best guy.” LK: Mm-hmm. DC: He, he was really one of those really against the Indians. LK: So, in addition to your passion and your education with the basketry, you are like a historian of your people, and the area, and I see that you brought some other materials. Is there anything you want share? DC: [again reaching to the left] Well, one of the things is that, uh, okay, and I know that for you, you’re trying to do this. I did study the language [holds up some leaves of paper], but since I didn’t—wasn’t able to have—speak to somebody, I went through the Pechanga — LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —and they sent me to Cal State—I mean, to Riverside, also to the international classes that was there. But since I didn’t have anybody to communicate with [gestures as if transmitting words to another person], it was hard for me. I can read it, and I can probably understand it when they’re—when they start talking to me, you know— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —get the words right. But I’m fortunate that I did have that. But this is one [looks at paper] of the things that I’m going to share—I’m going to be sharing this at the, uh, Spirit of the Valley, once they get over there. But it’s like this one here, okay? [turns paper toward Linda. The paper is laminated, and has a colored drawing of a deer, with the word ‘şúukat’] You hear that one What’s that? LK: Soosh-kah? Soo-kah— DC: Soos-kwaht, okay? LK: Soos-kwaht. DC: Deer. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Okay. I’m just going to be doing that. This is for the children. Ishwoot? [holds up a laminated drawing of a wolf with word ‘ˈíswut’] What’s that? Ishwoot. 32 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: That is a wolf. DC: Yeah, wolf. Okay? And then this is something that I use with kids [holds up a laminated drawing of a grasshopper with word ‘wiˈét’]. Whee-uht. LK: Grasshopper. DC: Or cricket. LK: Or cricket. DC: Yeah. Whee-uht. And so, you see in these names—why I use these, because you see in these names, being with the native kids now, that they’re being named this. [holds up a laminated drawing of a bear with word ‘húnwut’] LK: Hunwhat. DC: Hunwhat. LK: It’s a bear. DC: It’s a bear. Children are being named that now, with these, especially with these names here, with their—for the children. They’re proud of being called ‘hun-what.’ They’re proud of being called ‘soos-kwaht,’ called—proud of being called ‘whee-uht,’ you know, instead of just being called “cricket,” you know, on there. And so that was one of the things that I found I have been proud to do, you know, on that. And then, also, you have “Tuk-woot” [holds up a laminated drawing of a cougar with word ‘túˈkwet’]. Who is this? LK: A cougar or mountain lion. DC: It’s a cougar, okay? LK: Cougar? DC: You have ‘tuk-woot’ village, ‘tuk-woot’ village, ‘tuk-woot’ court, at Cal State San Marcos! LK: Yes, that’s right! DC: Okay? “Aush-woot?” [holds up a laminated drawing of a hawk with word ‘áşwut’] I know that’s not a [unintelligible] of an eagle, but that’s an ‘aush-woot.’ The eagle. LK: The eagle. DC: Yeah. And these are words that, um, are the alphabet, pretty long, you know, and considered more than 26 letters, that are important to the kids because they can identify with them. You know. I also have a coloring book, and you know, 1-2-3 and stuff like that I’m sharing. But one of these [reaches to the left for something else] that I want to end with, if you don’t mind, is that if, um, [sighs] in 2004, this is the Heritage Keepers [holds up a magazine entitled “Heritage Keepers”]. This is a magazine coming from the Ramon Learning Center [reads back of magazine] 33 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: Hmmm. DC: Okay. And, um, it’s still going on from Banning, California. And I wrote a poem [opening magazine, and finding page where poem is printed], um, and I wanted to read it and share it with you. Is that okay? LK: Yes! I would love that. DC: Okay. It’s that, um, I wrote this poem when I was doing the—learning the Luiseño language, and I had to write this poem because I was, um, trying to pull the words out [gestures as if churning things over in her head] of my head that I knew. And where I was at—it was Teeter Romero and I were up in Rainbow, up there by north of us here. And we were going to go out there to gather Juncus in Gomez Creek area, which is behind Riamb—Rainbow. You gotta go up the mountain. And when we were up there at the top of the hill—it was early in the morning, and we stopped because we looked out towards the valley towards the ocean [points to the left] and that morning it was clear. You can—you could—you could see the, see the ocean shining clear at the, at the other end, which is really not— [shakes her head]. But then you saw El Moro Kukutuk, okay? That’s another story. One day you might have to say it, but Kutukutuk too, is part of our creation story. And you can see that mound really clearly, with the ocean in the background, shimmering, and that mound there in the valley near Camp Pendleton, and Bonsall and Fallbrook area. In this part of our creation story, I got these things in my head as I’m looking at it, and I thought of our people. Because of the creation story, of trying to be saved. They were, they—we had the flood, also, in our creation story. And all I could think of, and was watching it, seeing the ocean shimmering, seeing that mound and thinking of “Oh my God, that’s what came up. The ocean came up.” And the people were running, because the water was coming in and coming in, and they had nothing to save ‘em. And the people from Pechanga were up there on their high point [points up with left hand], which is up there by Rainbow. If you ever go by Pechanga on the back way you’ll see the big hill that’s up there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That’s one of their lookouts, and I don’t know that there—the name of it, but it’s a point. And they were looking at the people, you know, the Luiseño people in the valley, running. And all they could do was keep singing. Now I don’t—I have the words to that song, that they had— that they started there. But, I don’t have that with me right now. But they were singing up there to hopefully save their people. They’re crying for them, and trying to save, save their people. Well, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, this mound comes up. And so they were watching their people swimming towards it, and running towards it. And this mound kept coming up, and that’s more—El Moro Hill, or Kuktuk. That is a volcano cone. People don’t realize that, you know, we do have volcanic areas— [laughs] LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —in this area. And that’s a volcano cone that came up and our people in that valley, meaning my ancestors, okay—were saved. They were able to go on to Tuktuk, El Moro Hill, and 34 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 come up, and go up there. You can visit that here—uh, that mound or that little knoll or dell, if you want to call it. It’s on Indian Rock Road. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It’s Sleeping Indian Rock. It’s Sleeping Indian Road [scratches head] right there. Part of it’s on Camp Pendleton. Part of it’s in Fallbrook. And, part of it is owned by the County of San Diego. You can’t build on it. You can build on—near it, but you can’t build on the Camp Pendleton side, because that’s a blind—ammunition dump. And the Navy owns it. Fallbrook owns a third of it, and San Diego County owns a third. There’s a trail that you can go up on there, if you want to visit it and go, and there’s a hearth on the top that they do celebrations, ceremonies up there. My great-grandmother was born there, at the base of that El Moro Hill. So, yeah, we’ve got history in there, and, you know, our aunt used to tell—my aunt, my great aunt, used to tell stories, you know, about that— LK: Mm-hmm. DC: —and they used to go, go there. But what I did was wrote a poem as I was doing, uh, looking at it, and I was thinking, my language is going in my head, but I could only pick out some words that I knew at that time. So it’s called "Naqmayam” and I was saying it—first saying it in Luiseño, then I’ll read it again in English, what it meant. LK: Okay. DC: Okay. It says “Naqmayam. Toonquay qawiinga/noo toowq ‘ataxmi/naqmayam/noo toowq ‘ataxmi heelaqal/‘ataaxum naqmawun! Popuu’uk ponakilvoy/yu’pan heth’aan/no$uun toonavan ‘ataaxum poomoto/naqmayam! Heelaxam!” Now, I usually sing this, I know. It’s just—it’s— it’s—I usually—it sticks after a while, I’m singing it, because I do sing it, at the Mission on All Soul’s Day. [chuckles] So, if you come on All Soul’s Day, on November 2nd, around 6 o’clock, between 6 and 6:30, I’ll be doing it and lighting the candles there, and I’ll be—I can sing it. And why I like to sing it, it’s sometimes I can hear my voice [gestures to her right ear], it bounces off the mission wall. It scared me the first time that it happened— LK: [chuckles] DC: —because I never had an echo come back like that. And, anyway, “naqmayam” means “listen.” “Toonquay qawiinga” means “from the rock on the mountain.” Naqmayam. I see the people. I see the people singing. People listen. The door was closed. Again it will open. My heart will weave among the people. Listen and sing. I wasn’t looking at them crying, you know. I was thinking about them singing, and being happy. And the door was closed at one time for us, but it was now opening. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then my heart, at that time, with the weaving, there, my heart will weave among the people. And, um, so it was kind of, you know—and they published it, in that—in that—in there— 35 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 LK: It’s beautiful. DC: —It kind of gives the story of me. This has happened in 2003 [laughs]. And that’s how long ago, with the language. And I’m still trying to bring the language back, you know, I mean, we did it with—for a while when we were together with the Rotary Club. But then again I’m doing it, trying to get it back with people, and with our people, on that. It’s still going on at the Pechanga, with this fantastic Pechanga . I started back with them, way back when, and they started at the preschool. And then, now, they’ve taken it all the way up through their 6th grade there on their reservation at Pechanga. They don’t speak any English in the classes. All their instructors or the teachers have to learn the language. It’s taught in Luiseño. They’ve got an agreement with the school district of Temecula, that they follow them all the way through school, all the way through high school, that they have to release them at least, I don’t know how many times a week, to be brought in and taught their language, to keep it up. LK: That’s wonderful. DC: They take it all the way through high school. But, Pechanga has done really good. Pauma is also―has a class there, you know. Pauma does. Rincon does. Pala, uh, I don’t know if Pala does. But, each one has a different, like a dialect, you know. The only sad thing is when you get politics coming in. I’m just going to let you guys know. Politics is really deep within the tribes, on there, and um, I’m right, you’re wrong, etc. And it’s sad, because we’re all the one people, but that’s the way it goes. You’re born into being an indigenous people, not just for us here in California, but across the United States. You’re born into politics, whether you like it or not. So, um― LK: Well, I just want to close with saying that it’s been an honor and absolute pleasure to interview you and listen to you. I want to acknowledge that you went from accounting to weaving to becoming an educator of your pe―of your tribal background, and also a historian, and I think a big part of your legacy is to keep this out there. And you’re doing it pretty much on your own. It’s not like you have all this, um, Federal money behind you, like the federally recognized tribes, so― DC: We don’t have that [shaking her head] LK: ―you do not have that. You’re not federally recognized. But I just wanted to honor that in you, and thank you so much for allowing me to do this. DC: Okay. LK: No $uun. DC: Noh [bowing her head, and chuckling] I was going to say No $uun Looviq. 36 Transcribed by Melissa Martin �DIANIA CAUDELL TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-10-27 NAQMAYAM TOONQA Y QAWIINGA From the rock on the mountain NOO TOOWQ 'ATAXMI I see the people NAQMAYAM Listen NOO TOOWQ 'ATAXMI HEELAQAL I see the people singing 'ATAAXUM NAQMA WUN! People listen! POPUU'UK PONAKILVOY The door was closed YU'PAN HETH'AAN Again it will open NO$UUN TOONAVAN 'AT AAXUM POOMOTO My heart will weave among the people NAQMAYAM! HEELAXAM! Listen! Sing! Written by Diania L Caudell @2003 37 Transcribed by Melissa Martin � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Caudell, Diania. Interview transcript. October 27, 2022. Description An account of the resource Interview with Diania Caudell focused on her Native American ancestry as well as her past occupation as an accountant. Also included is her implementation of Native American education in the San Juan Capistrano School District and how her back injury led her to become a basket weaver. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. The end of the transcript contains a glossary and a poem written by Caudell in 2003 in the Luiseño language, with English translation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Diania Caudell Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Linda Kallas Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-27 Subject The topic of the resource Basket making Education -- Native Americans Luiseño Indians Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Arizona Escondido (Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) San Juan Capistrano (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Luiseño Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Diania Caudell License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. 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Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Linda Kallas Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Diania Caudell OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CaudellDiania_KallasLinda_2022-10-17_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Caudell, Diania. Interview October 27, 2022 SC027-22 1:35:35 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Basket making Education -- Native Americans Luiseño Indians Oceanside (Calif.) Diania Caudell Linda Kallas mp4 CaudellDiania_KallasLinda_2022-10-17_access_redacted.mp4 1:|23(17)|51(14)|74(5)|91(9)|108(14)|129(9)|139(14)|156(6)|168(11)|179(10)|196(9)|215(13)|233(8)|248(2)|265(9)|282(2)|300(17)|312(13)|340(16)|373(13)|399(13)|418(11)|435(5)|458(2)|482(12)|497(4)|513(2)|533(6)|552(8)|567(7)|584(9)|601(8)|626(4)|645(12)|668(10)|684(13)|710(7)|729(7)|751(5)|765(7)|792(7)|816(12)|830(5)|857(12)|875(11)|904(17)|924(12)|947(6)|967(7)|989(14)|1008(8)|1030(2)|1044(10)|1061(14)|1082(9)|1100(1)|1123(13)|1148(8)|1170(9)|1192(9)|1209(1)|1220(1)|1235(15)|1255(1)|1280(9)|1294(14)|1320(7)|1340(14)|1356(3)|1382(10)|1402(4)|1432(12)|1452(9)|1472(6)|1487(8)|1503(5)|1546(12)|1562(15)|1580(16)|1603(4)|1622(9)|1638(6)|1659(2)|1682(6)|1722(3)|1761(12)|1780(1)|1791(6)|1806(11)|1820(8)|1840(16)|1854(2)|1876(3)|1895(7)|1907(7) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/214f3df10b105188751e6d028fef0176.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction/ Family background Diania Caudell discusses her family’s background. Diania explains that one side of her family is part of the San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians and that goes back nine generations. The other side of her family is French, and her great-grandfather, Hubert Foussat, was one of the founding fathers of Oceanside, CA. She also discusses other family details, such as the fact that she and her parents moved around the West Coast during her childhood due to her father’s career in construction, as well as information about her grandmother who worked at Camp Pendleton. family history ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians 339 Activism in Indian education reform Diania Caudell discusses her activism in advocating for the Acjachemen and Juaneño people for education reform in San Jan Capistrano, CA. She recalls fighting against Indigenous erasure in her children’s classrooms. She describes the complicated history of school registration files in terms of ethnicity, and how many Indigenous families were taught to select either “Other” or “Caucasian” on school and other legal forms. She explains how this causes erasure in the school system. She recalls surveying the K-12 registration files in the San Juan Capistrano Unified School District and identified 210 Indigenous students. This led to the formation of the San Juan Capistrano Council, which established an Indian Research Center. Acjachemen people ; activism ; education reform ; Indian education ; Indigenous activism ; Indigenous students ; Juaneño people ; San Jan Capistrano (Calif.) ; San Juan Capistrano Unified School District ; students 727 Back injury/ Career in basketry Diania Caudell describes a back injury she suffered. She recounts deciding to undergo back surgery and learning how to walk again. While recovering from the surgery, the Acjachemen people sent her a newsletter about basketry. She describes making the decision to learn basket-weaving in order to learn patience for her recovery, and also to expand her knowledge on Indian education. Acjachemen people ; Back injury ; Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous education 1167 Indigenous educational programs Diania Caudell discusses the current state of the San Juan Capistrano Unified School District. The Indian Research Center is open to the student population, but she explains that it requires federal funding to remain open. She also explains that the Research Center is also open in Huntington Beach because they have a large Cherokee community in the area. She explains how Indigenous history is not properly taught in K-12 schools. activism ; Cherokee people ; education reform ; Huntington Beach (Calif.) ; Indian education ; Indigenous activism ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous students ; San Jan Capistrano (Calif.) ; San Juan Capistrano Unified School District ; students 1511 The California Indian Basketry Weavers Association Diania Caudell discusses her involvement with the California Indian Basketry Weavers Association (CIBA). She explains that she has been a CIBA board member for at least twelve years. Before joining the board, the CIBA discovered that the traditional materials that are used in basket weaving were being destroyed due to development projects. Since becoming a board member, Diania has advocated towards protecting Southern California native lands. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; California Indian Basketry Weavers Association (CIBA) ; Environmentalism ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Native lands ; Native plants 1968 The foundations of basket-weaving Diania Caudell describes the various types of traditional plants that are used in basket-weaving. She explains that California is home to over 243 tribes, and that each tribe uses different plants. In Southern California, about five different plants are used in basket-weaving, such as the Juncus textilis and yucca. Diania also describes the many different weaving and dyeing techniques that are used in basketry. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Native lands ; Native plants 3030 Pesticide and insecticide effects on native plants and basket-weaving Diania Caudell describes the dangers pesticides and insecticides have on native plants and on the health of the community. This is an important topic that she has brought awareness to as a CIBA board member. Cities and counties often will not provide notice to their citizens when they begin spraying to protect against insects and rodents, and this causes major health concerns to basket-weavers or others who regularly pick native plants and crops. She describes an incident in which she smelled a plant and experienced a chemical reaction. She expresses concern for places like golf courses and hiking trails, where athletes, families, children, and animals frequent regularly. Diania also explains how the chemicals are affecting food and water supplies in Indigenous communities. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; California Indian Basketry Weavers Association (CIBA) ; Environmentalism ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Insecticides ; Native lands ; Native plants ; Pesticides 3584 Local volunteer work Diania Caudell discusses her volunteer work in North County. She has volunteered her time at Camp Pendelton, at Daly Ranch, and at local elementary schools. Diania discusses in great detail her time as a docent at Daly Ranch, where she aided in the “Indian program” and presented on the history of local Indigenous communities. She recalls bonding with one of the rangers and how they made a wiiwish dish together. She also recalls how her role expanded while volunteering at the Daly Ranch, other volunteers with whom she worked, and the school group programs she helped develop. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; California State University San Marcos ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Daly Ranch ; Escondido (Calif.) ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous education ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; students 3994 Basket-weaving at Mission San Luis Rey Diania Caudell discusses her volunteer work at Mission San Luis Rey. She provided a basket-weaving demonstration to forty-six Franciscans. She describes expecting to see the Franciscan friars dressed in traditional robes, but was surprised to find them dressed in modern street clothes. She recalls the demonstration being a rewarding experience for all involved. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Catholic Church ; Franciscan friars ; friars ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Mission San Luis Rey ; Oceanside (Calif.) 4328 Upcoming presentations Diania Caudell discusses the upcoming presentations she has scheduled in North County. She talks about planning to do basket-weaving demonstrations at Pablo Tac elementary school. She also talks about performing at the upcoming Jubilation of the Valley Festival and doing another basket-weaving demonstration at a senior center. She also recounts her recent demonstration at Camp Pendleton, where she discussed the native plants near the area with the audience. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Schools ; Students 4606 Controversy over working with the Mission Diania Caudell reflects on the criticism she has received from the Indigenous community about her volunteer work at the Mission San Luis Rey. She states that she is not condoning the racist history of the Mission towards their Indigenous community, but she also wants to pay her respects to her ancestors who are buried on the Mission grounds. She explains the complicated history the Luiseño people have with the Mission, especially those whose ancestors helped built the Mission, or who were educated and lived on the Mission’s grounds. family history ; genocide ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Mission San Luis Rey ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; racism 5016 Becoming a historian/ The Luiseño language Diania Caudell discusses how she became a historian of Indigenous history. She explains how she attended California State University Riverside to learn the Luiseño language. She then performs a demo language presentation with the interviewer. She uses laminated cards containing illustrations with associating Luiseño words for the demo presentation. Diania also reads a poem that she wrote about the Luiseño people and their creation story that was inspired by a hike up a mountain near Rainbow, CA. California State University Riverside ; historian ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Indigenous poetry ; Luiseño language ; Luiseño people ; poetry ; Rainbow (Calif.) Oral history Interview with Diania Caudell focused on her Native American ancestry as well as her past occupation as an accountant. Also included is her implementation of Native American education in the San Juan Capistrano School District and how her back injury led her to become a basket weaver. The written transcription of this interview also contains a glossary and poem in Luiseño with English translation, written by Caudell in 2003. DC: Is my lipstick okay? [laughs] Today is October 27, 2022. I am Linda Kallas, and I am interviewing Diania Caudell as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Thank you, Diania, for being here, and allowing me to do this with you today. Diania Caudell: No $uun Looviq [&quot ; My heart is good&quot ; in Luiseno. Our way of saying &quot ; thank you.&quot ; ] [chuckles] Linda: Miiyu. [&quot ; Hello&quot ; to one person in Luiseno.] DC: Miiyu [laughs]. LK: Um, we were--I just wanted to ask you when and where you were born. DC: Uh, where was I-- [redacted] 1948. I was born here in North County, San Diego--Oceanside, California, San Diego County. LK: And was your family an active part of any cultural community, such as religious or ethnic groups? DC: Well [sighs] yeah, we were, uh, part of the first indigenous people here in the Americas or whatever you want to say on that part. Um, we are part of the San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians, uh, been in the area as far as, uh, the written is concerned, you know, since they were written at the Missions, I would say the 1700s, because after that it was, um, mostly--before that it was all oral. So, um, we&#039 ; ve been here over nine generations. That&#039 ; s on the native side. LK: That&#039 ; s on the native side. DC: Yeah. LK: Which means-- DC: It means that-- LK: On the other side is-- DC: On the other side, the French side came to us, and he landed here in 1868. He was Hubert Foussat. Here in San Francisco. He was one of the founding fathers of Oceanside. LK: Is that why there&#039 ; s a street named after him? DC: Yes. But that&#039 ; s not at a--that&#039 ; s not named after my great grandfather. That&#039 ; s named, really, with--after his brother, Ramon Foussat. LK: Okay. DC: And he&#039 ; s the one that had the ranch in the area up there, by Highland and Oceanside. Faustino Foussat had the land there in the valley, San Luis Rey Valley. LK: And there&#039 ; s also an elementary school named Louise Foussat. DC: Yes. She&#039 ; s--I&#039 ; ve always called her as an aunt, but she&#039 ; s really a cousin. Um, she was--she married a Foussat. Okay. Her maiden name is a Munoa, and her mother was, um, Theresa Gidden, Theresa Giddens, and, um, that&#039 ; s another one that&#039 ; s--she was born at Pala, and, uh,that&#039 ; s another side of our family, my father&#039 ; s side, that had been here a long time. That&#039 ; s another whole side that I could talk about when you get to that point, if you want to, and his grandmother-- LK: Okay. DC: --was born on the Marron Ranch in 1865, so-- LK: So, your family history stretches way back in the North County. DC: Yes. Yes. LK: Um, this seems like a silly question, but how do you like living and working here? DC: [laughs] Okay, it--all I can tell you is that, um, I wouldn&#039 ; t want to live anyplace else, you know, other than--growing up, I lived all over the state of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada, only because I&#039 ; m, I&#039 ; m a construction brat, let&#039 ; s just put it that way. My father was a heavy construction operator, had his own equipment. So, if you go anywhere here in California for the freeways, he probably helped build those, all the dams here in California, uh, he was probably was working on those, um, also like Parker Dam in New Mexico, you know, even in Arizona, I mean, excuse me, Arizona. You have some of the bigger dams, you know, throughout [breathes in] so, um, my mother kept coming back to North County, because she was born here in San Luis Rey Valley. Her family, her family&#039 ; s from here. My father&#039 ; s family is from Pala. So, we kept coming back and, um, I think she put her foot down from travelling when my brother and I were in junior high. So, I graduated from Escondido High School, and stayed in Escondido until I got married, then I moved up to Orange County, San Juan Capistrano. I was up there for 40 some years, before I came back down here to my home. LK: Wow. DC: [laughs, then bell chimes] Oh-oh. Is that me? LK: Well, so you do feel part of the community, and within that, do you feel like you have a support network? DC: Well, if you&#039 ; re gonna say support network, you&#039 ; re going to have to look at the whole family, okay. Just with my great-grandfather. He had 11 daughters. LK: Wow. DC: And so, one of them was my grandmother, and he raised my mother because her father died when she, when she was a young child. And so, my great-grandfather, Faustino Foussat, raised her. So, when you have a large--just one branch of the Foussat family that had all these sisters and all these children, um, there&#039 ; s a support group on the ones that were close [chuckles] let&#039 ; s just say. My grandmother, um, was born in San Luis Rey Valley, uh, lived there all her life, uh, well not all her--until she retired, and then she went to Hemet. But, she retired from Camp Pendleton. She was one of the first workers there, you know, in the pressing. So, network-wise, yes, we have a good network of family. But, they all kind of seem to travel away, you know, on some things. Still, today, you know, because it&#039 ; s San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians which I&#039 ; m part of, we have good support network, in that, within relatives. I mean we have--I have a lot of cousins, you know, and related on both sides. If we had to talk about that, I&#039 ; m double related on some of them, and people just kind of wonder what--how did that happen? When you try to explain the story, uh, it gets confusing. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: So, um, we just want to do a big picture one day [laughs]. LK: That would be nice. Um, you said that you were in Orange County for 40 years. DC: Mm-hmm. LK: So, tell me about the work you did there. DC: [sighs] Ok. Let&#039 ; s just start that--when I got married, I moved up there and, um, when I was here I was starting in accounting. Okay? I&#039 ; m an accountant by trade. That wasn&#039 ; t really what I wanted to do, but that&#039 ; s how it ended up, you know, going into accounting. Um, so I did a lot of accounting for dealerships. Went back to college to get my degree into Accounting, and then went into accounting, business law, etc. so I stayed--like to work with numbers. I&#039 ; m just good with numbers. And, so, I worked with dealerships, school districts, medical field in the accounting field. I didn&#039 ; t become, later on, the weaver or in, with my cultural until I had to have a back injury. So, for 40-some years, up there in San Juan Capistrano, Orange County, I got involved with the Acjachemen people, the Juaneños there, helping them through Indian education, in the 70s, because that&#039 ; s a story that-- I can go into that, and I think I--it&#039 ; s kind of long but shortly is that I grew up with being native, and the schools not teaching us correctly. Okay? LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You read the books, etcetera, and you hear about how they were dressed, what they were, were they savages? Etcetera. And I would come home from school and saying this is not how we are. And then my mother, my grandmother, and family would say &quot ; Don&#039 ; t argue, Diania, just let it go.&quot ; And so when I got married, and my two children, my son and my daughter, when they went to school up there in the Palisades, or in Capistrano Unified School District, they came home one day and said they were entitled to something other. It was like a Spanish program, Title II, at that time. And so, I went to the school to find out how my children got tagged into--in the Spanish community, when my last name is French, and it&#039 ; s Caudell. And so, talking with the school principal, um, we found out that I followed that person that was in charge of Title II, and what had happened--how my two ended up coming with that notice is that this person went around the school to the classrooms and asked questions. Now, if you had a surname, with Romero, Sanchez, Alvaros, Valenzuela, any of those Spanish names, she automatically put them down on the list as a Spanish or Mexican. Uh, then, the other question when she got that from the roster, she then would ask &quot ; how many children here already know that their parents, or grandparents, speak Spanish.&quot ; Well, my two automatically raised their hand because their father spoke Spanish. And he was taught that from his mother and also because of the community of San Juan Capistrano. You&#039 ; ve got to think of the missions. That was the language that was taught to the Indian people. And, um, so that&#039 ; s how my two got on there. And so I challenged that at the school district, at the, you know, with the superintendent, and, uh, they came back at me and saying &quot ; well, the last Indian person that was living here in San Juan Capistrano died in 1933, and he was the bell-ringer.&quot ; And I go, &quot ; no, that can&#039 ; t be, because I&#039 ; m here. I&#039 ; ve got relatives that are married into the Juaneño or Acjachemen people. You still have them here, and so, um, I became an advocate [laughs], an activist, or whatever you want to say, and contacted my relatives there, that are--that married into the Acjachemen people, and, identified them. We went back to the school district, and went through all their rosters, because back in the 70s, when you&#039 ; re ethnic, when they ask you that question, when you&#039 ; re enrolling your student, your child, they ask you what ethnic group you are. Well, in those days--I&#039 ; m saying those days, in the 70s, you only had, like, you had Caucasian, you had Asian--not even Asian, really. Mexican, I think. But you didn&#039 ; t have the--what you have today is the Native American/Alaskan ethnic group. And so I always put us under &quot ; Other&quot ; as Native American, because I am a registered through the B.I.A., Bureau of Indian Affairs, and I have my certification, that I am who I am, meaning Native American. And, um, so I always made sure that my children would have that, going through there. So, we went through K-12, went to the registry of the school district and got all their cum files, or whatever they call them, those information files, and took home all the ones that were identified as Native American. A lot of them were not, because they didn&#039 ; t want to, because it was passed down to us that you didn&#039 ; t want to register as Native American because it wasn&#039 ; t the best thing to do. So, they always put Caucasian. So, from K-12 in that school district, Capistrano High School District, we had identified 210 students. LK: Wow. DC: And so that kind of put us into the category of challenging the school. Uh, UCI had Kogee Thomas at that time. She was the Director. She heard about what was happening. She came down to become my mentor. With that, because she&#039 ; s really high with the Seminoles and Muscogee people at that, then, and we wrote the first grant. We brought in Title IV, Indian Education Act, Public Law 194, in 1975. [laughs] LK: Wow. DC: So, I&#039 ; ve been through this for a long time. We ended up forming the San Juan Capistrano Council, because they had to reform themselves again. They never left. They just said their leader moved, and they just kind of--in the 60s, or in the 50s, he left, and so they just kind of knew they were there, but they weren&#039 ; t formally formed yet. So we reformed them. So today I can just tell you that in Capistrano Unified School District, they still have Indian Education. They have a Indian Research Center, kind of, for teachers, instructors, and parents, there on the Clarence Lobo Elementary school grounds. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That if you wanted to study any Indian, not just California, any, any native person across indigenous person across the United States, in Alaska and Hawaii, etc., that you can go to that resource center, and that instructor, teacher, parent can pull the correct information that these tribes have handed in. So, that was one of my things that I did up there, other than just being an accountant. LK: Wow, that&#039 ; s impressive. DC: Okay, that was in the community. [laughs] LK: Yes, yes. And then you mentioned you hurt your back and that&#039 ; s what lead you to getting into basketry. Can you talk a little bit about that? DC: [sighs] Yeah, that was, um, a fall I had, okay? I don&#039 ; t want to describe the fall, because it&#039 ; s kind of, you know, it&#039 ; s kind of stupid. I mean, the thing is when you hurt your back, um, I thought I&#039 ; d go to the chiropractor. I went to work, and was working in Huntington Beach at that time, and I drove my car to Huntington Beach, went to sit down at my desk at the dealership, sat down and I couldn&#039 ; t move. They had to literally pick me up, take me to my car. I called my chiropractor in Newport and, uh, he went to adjust it, and he says &quot ; This isn&#039 ; t that, you know. This is something else.&quot ; And so they took x-rays, and he still tried the adjustment. I--and it got a point where I had to quit. I couldn&#039 ; t--you know, I was losing to walk, etc. And the pain kept going through that, and then finally when they did an MRI on me, you know, they found out that I had―let me see, I&#039 ; m trying to figure out how to describe this, because I&#039 ; m not a medic, medical person-- I was diag--rheumatism arthritis runs in our family on my dad&#039 ; s side, my grandmother&#039 ; s side. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Not too much on my mother&#039 ; s side, but on, through my dad&#039 ; s side. And so, I guess hereditarily, I have that in my system. What are you going to do? So, when I hit the lower back really hard, I accelerated the arthritis rheumatism in my spine. And so when that happened, that&#039 ; s what they found with the MRI. So, they said &quot ; Diania, if you don&#039 ; t have, do something with it, it&#039 ; s going to get worse, and you&#039 ; re going to lose a lot of functions that you normally can take that you can control of. And, anyway, I put it off a whole year. I didn&#039 ; t want to have my back opened up. And so, I got to a point where I couldn&#039 ; t deal with this anymore. And so, I had to say yes. They opened up 5, 4, and 6 of your vertebraes &lt ; sic&gt ; . They opened them up, and all I can describe it was a rotor-rooter job. She went in there, and just tried to scrape out all the rheumatism, or arthritis, away from my spine, inside my spine. And when she did that, she hit one of the sciatic nerves. LK: oh-- DC: And uh, &#039 ; cuz it, nothing&#039 ; s replaced. They just sealed it back up again. And, uh, so when I came out of surgery, I didn&#039 ; t realize that I couldn&#039 ; t walk because the nurses tried to--they put those belts [gestures tying a belt around her waist] on you when you&#039 ; re going to go and make you go to the restroom, etc., you know, when you&#039 ; re [unintelligible] and when I went to get out the bed, I fell straight to the floor. Thank goodness I had belts on me, because the two nurses and all the surgeons come running in, and I lost everything from the waist down. Had to learn how to walk all over again. It took me--they said &quot ; Diania, you&#039 ; re going to have to learn patience.&quot ; And I&#039 ; m not one with patience, let&#039 ; s put it that way. I do have patience for other people, but not for myself. So, I didn&#039 ; t know what to do and the Acjachemen people had sent me a newsletter, and my mom brought it up, and on the front cover of that newsletter that was next to the, my bed in the hospital was Lillian Robles. She&#039 ; s an elder. She&#039 ; s passed on before, but she had a basket hat on. And I saw the basket hat and I went &quot ; Oh, great. I guess to learn patience, I guess I can get into basketry.&quot ; LK: Oh-- DC: And I never was in it. I was more in the Indian education. I was more into the helping with the activities. My mother was a weaver. My aunts were weavers, their jewelry, they&#039 ; re always crafting with their hands. I was not. They always pushed me away, and said &quot ; Diania, you know, we&#039 ; re need--we need you in education. We need you speaking for our people.&quot ; And so when I called, I looked at that, and I called Teeter Romero who was a top weaver from the Acjachemen people, and she--her and I were really close, worked together for years, with Indian education-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―Inter-tribal Council of California, I mean, the different areas, you know, for the people, Indian people. And I called her, and let her know that, um, I need to become a weaver. Well, she started laughing on the phone, when I called from the hospital, because she didn&#039 ; t know where I was at. LK: She laughed at you? DC: Well, she laughed at me, because she said &quot ; you&#039 ; re not a weaver, you know, you&#039 ; re just not a weaver.&quot ; And then she says &quot ; Why?&quot ; And I says &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m in the hospital, and I can&#039 ; t walk, and I need to learn patience.&quot ; So, when she heard that, she says &quot ; okay, when you&#039 ; re able to get home and sit up in a wheelchair, we&#039 ; ll come to you.&quot ; And, they did. I was with my mom here in Escondido, at that time. And they came down. About six months--let&#039 ; s see, I had the operation in April ; they came down in June. And I was being able to sit up in there. I was still trying to learn to walk. I was with a walker. And, they came! And they started, uh--sat down with me, and the first thing they gave me was raffia in one hand and pine needle in the other, and they had me doing the coiling, just to learn to go round and round and round and round, with basketry. From then on, it took me, you know, work--it took me almost two years to learn how to walk again, by myself. I was with a--I couldn&#039 ; t drive. My mom was driving me all over. I had the walker. I got everything back in my left leg, but on my right leg not everything came through. And so, another six to eight months, I was doing acupuncture at Indian Health Council in Rincon, because I didn&#039 ; t want to open up my back again, okay, have another surgery. So, I don&#039 ; t have a lot of feeling in my right foot, from my calf, I think, down. But, I do think it--people don&#039 ; t realize that, you know, that I don&#039 ; t, but that&#039 ; s what put me into retirement, really. LK: How many years ago was that? DC: Okay. When did 9/11, what year was that? 2001? LK: That was &#039 ; 01. DC: Okay, &#039 ; 01. LK: 09. DC: Because, yeah, April of &#039 ; 01, because I remember I was still in bed and my mom got a call from her sister and my mom come running in to my bedroom, trying to insist I turn the TV on, and what she says--my mom was crying and I looked at that and there it was when I saw the airplane hit. They had that going on the towers and it was like looking at a movie. LK: Yeah. DC: Okay. That was just unbelievable. Okay? So, that was April, September, okay. It was--that&#039 ; s how I can remember. I can never remember the year, but I just think it&#039 ; s the year of 9/11. So twenty-oh-one, right? LK: Yeah, 21 years ago. DC: Yeah, so it was 21 years ago. I was still on--I have been on social security disability, because I can&#039 ; t sit that long. So, if I get up on you guys, and take a break, then I&#039 ; m sorry, you know, but that--My, my job was an accountant, and so that was sitting a lot. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then to get up and sit and get up is one of the things. So, uh, that&#039 ; s how I got into basketry and I&#039 ; m still doing that today, you know, on that. But, it&#039 ; s taken me learning different things, you know, getting--you want me to go into California Indian Basket Weavers Association? LK: Yeah, I― DC: [laughs] okay, okay. LK: I was going to ask that--I--but I wanted to go back, just for a minute-- DC: Okay. LK: --to Indian education. DC: Mm-hmm. LK: So, I think you said it&#039 ; s still going on to this day. You still, they still have that educational program in San Juan Capistrano. DC: Yeah, they still have the Capistrano Unified School District and it&#039 ; s going still strong, but they have to be the parents that have to want it. LK: Ah, okay. DC: It doesn&#039 ; t just stay with the Acjachemen people. And they do have, I think they have a resource instructor there, someone in their administration, that they do go out for. Because it is a fund. It&#039 ; s funding, it&#039 ; s federal funding. All school districts need money― LK: Right. DC: ―and it&#039 ; s a head count. And so, Capistrano Unified School District still has it, so does Huntington Beach, because they have a large community of the Cherokee Indian― LK: Oh! DC: ―outside natives coming in, because a lot of people don&#039 ; t realize, that if they do start researching, you can go into 1963. They had the Relocation Act, of Native Americans. And, this isn&#039 ; t taught in schools. This isn&#039 ; t taught in--you know, for the general public, sometimes, unless you&#039 ; re involved with Native Americans and their--and the different things. Well, 1963 they relocated Cherokee, Choctaw, and a lot of different native groups into California. LK: Oh-- DC: You know, a lot of the Cherokees went to the Anaheim area, Huntington Beach area, and settled there. You had a lot of the Cherokee, Osage, and some coming down to San Diego. The largest Choctaw Relocation is in Bakersfield. LK: I&#039 ; ll be darned. DC: So, yeah, it&#039 ; s a--it was--it&#039 ; s interesting, uh, how they did move native people around to get them away from their &quot ; homeland&quot ; and give them incentives at that time that &quot ; we can move you to California. You know, you can emerge into there&quot ; and stuff. And so a lot of it is kind of detrimental but with them, they brought their, they brought their culture and their tradition with them, which is good. LK: So, if you could see something change in regard to that educational program, what would it be? Would it be to expand it to San Diego County? Would it be-- DC: Well, San Diego County had a big--has a big Indian education program. They did--they--you just don&#039 ; t hear about it― LK: Okay. DC: ―um, in their school district. What it would be good to expand on there is that, um, to get it more to the public, to the other schools, okay. It takes a school district to want it. I&#039 ; ve notified Oceanside. I&#039 ; ve notified Vista. In Vista alone, a few years ago, they identified another 200, because now they have that on their information form of the child&#039 ; s registers, you know, what ethnic group you are. And 210 had registered as Native American. It doesn&#039 ; t mean they&#039 ; re, you know, San Luis Rey or California. They can be from anywhere in the United States. And most of them that do register for their ethnic group know that they are, or they&#039 ; ve been told that they are. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it gets a parent, it&#039 ; s gotta be a parent to initiate it, to get a parent group together, and that way they can work with the school district. And then they can apply for grants. And then they can get the head count. Then they can get a resource instructor in there, or someone to work with the Indian education, and then it comes in with tutoring. That was one thing I did. I knew for, just for reading and math, at least. Get the children on the tutoring. They have the tutoring. They were pulled out of class or they brought the equipment in, if they needed equipment. There, Capistrano Unified School District, we&#039 ; ll go back to that. It was shown as a need. Getting the general books that they need into the libraries. That&#039 ; s how that resource center started, because the school districts will only go by what the state says, for state books, state history books, they―etc. The Native peoples say &quot ; No, that&#039 ; s not correct. We will want our own books coming in.&quot ; So that&#039 ; s what we did in the 70s. We brought in records. At that time, you didn&#039 ; t have CDs or you know, what we had, you know, you had-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: LPs. And so we brought in records of the singing of the different groups. They brought in books that the teachers can get through, or parents could check out, you know, and working with that to get the education in there. And you have to have the school district to want to work with you. Um, we--it was a hard thing, with, even with Capistrano Unified School District, to do it. But if I didn&#039 ; t have the help with Kogee Thomas and some of the top people that come from back east, that were very strong in their native cultural, that I don&#039 ; t think that Capistrano would have done it either. &#039 ; Cuz we challenged them. We challenged them, so-- LK: But, how enriching for the students. DC: It is, but you got to have again, you gotta have a parent― LK: Right. DC: ―who would want that, so their student or their child can get that extra help. LK: There has to be a buy-in for it, with the parent. DC: Yes, and so it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s--today, in Capistrano Unified School District, the ones that do use it--I know my grandchildren went through it--they provided the computers at home for the tutoring. You know, they didn&#039 ; t have to go to like a trailer, or be pulled out of class, and be taken, you know, like to a tutorial room like we did in the 70s. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Uh, with the st--with my two children, my daughter used it and they had computers at home. The school district provided these computers, these laptops for the home that they could use and they got tutored every day, since they were in grade school. All the way through high school. LK: Wow. It gave them a really good sense of self. DC: It gave a sense of self, and they--at first it was &quot ; why do we have to do this for half an hour every day?&quot ; [laughs] I mean, but as they got older in high school, and then went to college, you know, especially going through all those tests that you have to take for college, they, they were happy because they knew a lot of the questions and were able to answer them. Because of the tutorial they had, um, above and beyond what they normally get in school, in class. LK: Wow. That&#039 ; s wonderful. So, you&#039 ; ve already explained a little bit about your life&#039 ; s path, how it&#039 ; s evolved and changed over the years, so I was going to ask you if you wanted to share a little bit more about the basketry and CIBA, and I see that you have a little sample of one. DC: [laughs] Ok. When you said CIBA, I don&#039 ; t think everybody knows what CIBA is, okay. You&#039 ; re familiar with it. CIBA is California Indian Basket Weavers Association. Um, that&#039 ; s another thing that I have been a member of and I&#039 ; m on the Board for the last umpteen years, I would say--let&#039 ; s just say the last 12 years. I know it&#039 ; s been longer. Uh, but how I got involved in that, again, was going back to when I became basket--learning basketry and the plants, finding out that southern California doesn&#039 ; t have everything that they normally have. If you know the county here, we&#039 ; ve got 18 reservations here in the San Diego County alone and the people--where they were sent--aren&#039 ; t on their homelands. I mean-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It&#039 ; s not where they would have their medi--their medicinal plants, their foods, or their traditional cultural plants like basketry and other things, and so they had--the people had to go off the reservations, and to public lands, which would be your forestries, um, county parks, state parks, etc., even private land, to get the materials that they need for the basketry. Well, I had a problem with that because I didn&#039 ; t understand that, you know, and why did they have the restrictions here in southern California when I found out that in central California, they don&#039 ; t have that. In northern California they don&#039 ; t have the same restrictions. But it&#039 ; s because a lot of these central reservations or rancherias in northern California, too, is that they&#039 ; re on their homelands. They&#039 ; re rancherias. They weren&#039 ; t like taken from one area and moved. Okay. They&#039 ; ve had little rancherias, then. That&#039 ; s what they called them, instead of reservations, up in northern California, spread out. And so they were on their lands and they had the traditional materials. LK: Oh, I see. DC: For example, you&#039 ; ve got the Yuroks and the Hoopas up there. They&#039 ; re in the forest up there. They have the red for--the, the redwoods. They got the forest. They&#039 ; ve got a lot of their plants. And that&#039 ; s their economic development. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But, that&#039 ; s―they don&#039 ; t call them reservations. They call them rancherias. Okay, so, so I started asking questions about that. You know, I&#039 ; d say &quot ; how come, what for?&quot ; And I went to a gathering of CIBA, because they have a large gathering once a year for the basket weavers of the state of California, and I started asking &quot ; how come, what for, why is it that in California we don&#039 ; t have this, when you have it up there?&quot ; And then I was told by a board member, &quot ; Well, Diania, you keep asking these questions. Why don&#039 ; t you--we&#039 ; re having a Board election. Why don&#039 ; t you throw your hat in, your name, and we can see what we can do?&quot ; Well, I got elected. You know, I mean, I didn&#039 ; t expect that at all. And I&#039 ; ve been on it ever since, since 2003. And, uh, so I became an advocate of, for southern California, to get in, our traditional trading, you know, gathering, etc., our traditional materials, you know, on that. And so, if I didn&#039 ; t enjoy what I&#039 ; m doing and have a passion for it, you know, I think learning about my traditional materials that we use for basketry, which is hard to find here in southern California, if you don&#039 ; t get somebody to help you, you know, with that. And, um, so I think being educating people has helped me. LK: Um, the traditional materials are hard to find because of development? They&#039 ; ve all been-- DC: Yes, uh-- LK: --plowed over or-- DC: Um, there&#039 ; s a--[reaching to her left for a brochure with the front cover reading &quot ; Indian Rock Project&quot ; ] okay, let me just see, I&#039 ; m just going to go through here. This here, this is Indian Rock Project, okay. This is something that we worked with the Cal St--uh, San Luis Rey Band of Mission Indians and Cal State San Marcos worked together with Palomar College to do, to put this book out. This was done in 2003, which was a long time ago. But in here, in this book, let me just--[flipping through pages]--the--when you see what they--when you ask me about, uh--[looking at a particular page]--uh, where is it? [flips through more pages] And then you all--she&#039 ; s probably going to edit this, but that&#039 ; s okay. Because I was asked that question that you were just asking, and [still flipping through pages] LK: About the natural-- DC: I found it. Okay, I had said here, on here &quot ; preserving tradition&quot ; and this is, you know― [turning the booklet to Linda to show her the specific pages]--I ended up being in the booklet, okay, okay, on this Indian Rock Project [shows front cover] You could probably go online, you know, and download it, because they don&#039 ; t have any more of these booklets. But, when you asked me that question, I said [she&#039 ; s reading from the booklet] &quot ; a lot of our things are being destroyed. If you look at our environment around us, we have development, development, development. Juncus and all the plants that we use for actually making the baskets are being destroyed. When we are out driving, we stop, we get out there, and we take pictures. I want to find a spot, notify the nearest reservations, notify the Forestry, notify the developers--&quot ; Can we go in? Can we pick? Can we transplant? Because if you are going to develop it and destroy it, let us go in.&quot ; That was a statement that I had made, you know, for--for, for, like an interview for this booklet. So-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then it went on [flipping through booklet again] into who I am or whatever. But, um, yes, the development. And so more developers now are finding out that if you do have--if you do identify traditional materials and stuff, they are now trying to hopefully preserve &#039 ; em, or to have you come in and take them, or use them. But it is. Southern California is, gets hit with a lot of development because you look around here and you&#039 ; re looking at it. I&#039 ; m looking at the Mission San Juan--Mission, excuse me, San Luis Rey Mission. If you ever go by there, and stuff like this, you&#039 ; ll see we had wetlands there right next to it, and through the Lavanderia and right next to the Mission, what&#039 ; s happening now? The Mission leased it out, or sold it, whatever you want to say--99-some years. You&#039 ; ve got this big, huge retirement center going in there. It&#039 ; s like a resort. They are built on the wetlands, and uh, there went something that was natural, native, etc., and it&#039 ; s being developed. You drive around to different places now, here in San Diego County, and you&#039 ; re seeing development. So, it&#039 ; s really hard on-- LK: Everywhere you look. DC: Yeah, and I just don&#039 ; t understand, for me, where they&#039 ; re getting their water from. Because if we have a resource of, of water--that&#039 ; s one of the things that we don&#039 ; t have here in southern California. We have to bring it in from other places. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: How can you develop and, and, and bring in people, more and more people, so how are you going to give them water? Feeding you know--if you&#039 ; re going to feed, you&#039 ; ve got the grocery stores yet, or whatever. You still can&#039 ; t even have farmland any more hardly, but water. Water is essential for all living things. So, where they come, the water? I mean, the lease on the Colorado River is coming up. That was only a 99-year agreement. How are they going to negotiate that, if they want to stop the Colorado River from coming in? You know, I know they&#039 ; re doing desalting plant, but that&#039 ; s not even good for the ocean, you know, and not even good for us as people. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: So, um, that&#039 ; s a big question that I ask. Every time I drive around and see these developments, you know, and it&#039 ; s money. It&#039 ; s politics and money. Okay, we can go on. We won&#039 ; t go into that--[laughs] LK: Well, going back to the baskets-- DC: Okay. LK: Can you tell us some of the natural fibers that you use, natural plants you use in the baskets. DC: Okay. LK: The traditional-- DC: --Traditional plants. In the state of California, we have over 243 different tribes, 26 different dialects of language, and each one of the--in California, it&#039 ; s kind of divided up, like in northern, central, and southern, and we all don&#039 ; t use the same plants. Here in southern California, we basically use about five. And that would be Juncus textilis, which is a green reed that grows near water. It needs water. It&#039 ; s like a tule, if you&#039 ; ve seen tule in― LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―these wetlands, and stuff, or at these lakes, lagoons, but it&#039 ; s not cornered or-- Tule has three--is three-sided. Juncus textilis, is round. It&#039 ; s a round reed, and it grows up straight. It could--If you know how crab grass grows, it has, is that right? How it goes--what do you call that [gestures with her right hand, pointing straight and making curves in a snake-like fashion]-- you know, you pull it out of the shoots-- LK: Uh-huh. DC: --you know, like crab grass-- LK: Yeah. DC: And, anyway, uh, depending on where it&#039 ; s growing at and the materials that are in the--minerals--excuse me--that are in the soil, the bottom of the root type of thing, where the shaft comes out of there, the reed comes out of that shaft, it&#039 ; ll have color on it. And it&#039 ; s either from a deep light brown, mahogany color, to a deep red mahogany color. And, I didn&#039 ; t bring any of those baskets with me. I was going to, okay, but maybe I should have, but I didn&#039 ; t. If you ever notice some of the traditional baskets, you&#039 ; ll see this deep red color or brown color-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That&#039 ; s usually coming from the Juncus on the, on the end of the shaft on there, bottom part, which is in the ground. It&#039 ; s green when you plant--It&#039 ; s green when you collect it. You have to process it. It takes time. It grows with poison oak. That&#039 ; s another thing. We call it--it&#039 ; s our protector. The only time we go and gather the Juncus textilis is when we say the poison oak goes to sleep, and that only means that the leaves are gone. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it&#039 ; s still going to be contaminated, probably, with poison oak. And that&#039 ; s why we don&#039 ; t teach it as much, because some people don&#039 ; t want to be dealt with, with poison oak. That&#039 ; s what, that&#039 ; s the reed that we use for coiling. Okay? And that takes a process, splitting, etc., and getting it ready. It takes anywhere from six months to a year to even get your material ready to do a basket. The next one that we use for our start would be the center, which is the center of the basket, is yucca. And that, again, is that--what is it, yucca--uh, the Whippi? Or they call it the &quot ; Lord&#039 ; s Candle.&quot ; It think you&#039 ; ve seen it down by the road. You&#039 ; ll see it growing on the hillsides. There&#039 ; s different ways to use that. Some people will take the dead leaves, those great big green ones that they have and they grow pretty, even from the agave-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC:--and the yucca. When you see those dead ones, or dried out, in the desert, etc., you can take those and you can soak them really, really big in a big tub, and then you take that, and you pound it. And you just keep pounding it, when they&#039 ; re--you know, when you&#039 ; re drying them. And they&#039 ; ll--they&#039 ; ll turn fibrous, like string-- LK: Oh. DC:--and that&#039 ; s how you get your yucca sandals, and things like that, that they use in fiber, or your cordage. The other way you can do is with the yucca is you take the center of the new shoots that are coming out, before it becomes a flower in the stalk. [gestures up with an open hand] You take that, and you twist it, and you get about 30 or 40 small, small [gestures to indicate smallness of an object] little leaves, and then you take those and you shred &#039 ; em with a needle--we do--or pound them, and uh, you don&#039 ; t need to go out there anymore because you&#039 ; re not going to make 30 or 40 bags in your lifetime, as far as I know. I&#039 ; m not going to. But you have enough to where you don&#039 ; t have to go out there and gather them. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Then, deer grass. People use deer grass as a native plant for decoration or whatever, because it&#039 ; s drought tolerant. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But it&#039 ; s not that Pampas grass that you see waving from that Africa--that African one is an invasive plant. I wish people would just take it away, and these nurseries--just take it out, you know get it--because that Pampas grass kills everything on the native plants. It just takes over. And deer grass is similar to it, but it doesn&#039 ; t have that fan on the top. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And, uh, the deer grass, we gather that and we take the shoots or the stems on them, and we gather, and that&#039 ; s what we coil around [gestures in a coiling fashion with both hands] So, the traditional, for the Mission baskets they called here that the Luiseño use, Cahuilla use, Kumeyaay use, the Cupeno use here in southern California, even the Chumash further up, and your Tongva and your different people. We do a coiling technique. Okay? So have you ever seen those baskets in museums, etc., you&#039 ; ll see that one by one, they&#039 ; re coiling. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They&#039 ; re coiling the Juncus textilis. They&#039 ; re coiling around with sticks that they use, which would be deer grass. And the center star that you see in the middle [creates a circle with her fingers on her left hand] is done with yucca. And sometimes it&#039 ; s also done with Juncus on Juncus, or Juncus on Deer Grass. It all depends who the weaver is, etc. Since we have to gather that, and we can&#039 ; t find it all over, you know what we do, we try to really work with the forestries, and private owners, and people. Try and get them to plant. It&#039 ; s not easy to plant the Juncus textilis because it&#039 ; s not going to grow everywhere. So, there&#039 ; s different areas that do have it. If you want to see Juncus textilis, where it&#039 ; s at, you can see it in the public, it&#039 ; s in the public discovery center there in Carlsbad. LK: Oh. DC: They have a good--kind of like a little garden, that they have it growing there. And the deer grass and the yucca. And that was done because we worked with the Discovery Center years ago with Cal State San Marcos and the students. And we did all the planting there, when it was there. So, if you want to see that, I would go there and visit it. And you can see what the Juncus textilis looks like. See, uh--[sighs]--but doing basketry is that--what I have here is samples. I did bring a basket. I just brought these hair pieces that I&#039 ; ve made for my two granddaughters [shows beautiful, small round woven hairpieces]. Can you see them okay?--LK: Yes, yes. DC: Out of Juncus. If you see, this one here is a little bit darker, and the black there [now holding only one of the hairpieces, with a woven black ring in the mid-region of the weave, and gesturing to this area] is dyed Juncus, okay? Now, that Juncus, um, was dyed with--[looking at the hairpiece now, more intensely]--I don&#039 ; t know, this was given to me, [chuckling] the dyed Juncus, so I&#039 ; m assuming they did it with, um, elderberry leaves, okay, and um, put in the Juncus, and in a can, okay, or, or like a coffee can that&#039 ; s all rusty. And what you do--you put the rusted can in there. You have your Juncus already split and put into the weaver, and then you put, um, into a coffee can [gesturing to show the size of the can] and it&#039 ; s all rusty. You put some rusty nails in it at the bottom, and then you start layering it with the Juncus textilis. It&#039 ; s the process. And on top of that you put elderberry leaves, and you keep going &#039 ; til you fill it. [gestures indicating layers building up] Then you fill it with water. LK: Oh. DC: And then you let the water--and then you put that can somewhere so it can ferment. It&#039 ; s like I tell you, it&#039 ; s got to get all yucky and like, rotten, and what it is is that it probably turns black. And it&#039 ; s--and you&#039 ; re getting the iron--what do you call that? Iron oxide?-- LK: Uh-huh. DC: --from the, from the nails and from the rusty can. Then when you empty it out, your Juncus is black. LK: Wow. DC: Dyed black. And that&#039 ; s also what&#039 ; s coming from the elderberry leaves. Another way that our ancestors did it was that during the creeks they knew where there was iron oxide in the soil, in the sand. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They would get their Juncus, and they would bury it in that sand. They&#039 ; d come back, weeks later or whatever, and dig it out, and it&#039 ; ll be black. Another way they do it, up in northern California, and in here too, is using walnuts, because we had, you know--black walnuts is a native plant of California. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And so they would take the shells, crunch &#039 ; em up, you know shells, the outside shell, they&#039 ; re called, and if you&#039 ; ve ever picked walnuts, you know that your hands get black? LK: Yeah. DC: Okay, because that--on the hull--because you take that, well they&#039 ; ll take that hull and chop it up, and then put in water, and put your Juncus in there, and with the walnut there, and they&#039 ; ll turn black, too. LK: Wow. DC: That&#039 ; s just one other way. It takes time. And they also use the acorn husk, or the shell of the acorn, and the black acorn, or any of the acorns, crush &#039 ; em up again and put them in water, put the Juncus in there, and then you have to leave it. So it is a time consuming deal. So these are two headpieces I did. Now, when we get to the schools--when you get to the school-- [holds up a small woven basket] this is a little basket that I&#039 ; ve had for years. But this is not a native material. This material that we use for teaching is from, okay, rattan. Everybody knows what rattan is. Rattan has a pith in it. Rattan and bamboo look similar but bamboo is hollow. Rattan is got the pith. To get the pith out of the rattan, pull it, press it, and make cane. This is how you get cane. LK: Oh. DC: And so what we use here, is that you can buy cane in different rounds, or different sizes or gauges. You can get it flat. You can get it round. Uh, we get the round, and this is called Cherokee Single Wall twine. I call it, uh--we have our own twine, excuse me, but it&#039 ; s not like this one, the Luiseño. And why I use Cherokee is because one of the easiest ones that the kids can use at school. It&#039 ; s the closest thing that I can get to the river cane, from the Cherokee and Choctaw and the people there, in Oklahoma and that area, will use, because they go and pick their river cane. We don&#039 ; t have river cane here in California. If we do have it, I wouldn&#039 ; t want to go down there because it&#039 ; s probably contaminated. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It&#039 ; s got all those other things, and they probably sprayed it a lot with pesticides. And so this is what we teach in school, and I call it &quot ; Cherokee Single Walled Twine.&quot ; We make the starts. The kids can make one of these [holding up a skein of yarn] within an hour, even the adults, over two hours. And maybe not this size, maybe a little bit bigger. But this way, they don&#039 ; t have any allergies or con― such so far, uh, getting sick from it. Because, I can&#039 ; t guarantee our native traditional plants that we do use aren&#039 ; t--it doesn&#039 ; t have some type of pesticides on it, or some poisons on it that we&#039 ; re not aware of. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And we use our mouth [wipes her right hand across her mouth] a lot for our third hand when we&#039 ; re weaving with our traditional materials. LK: Because you have to keep them-- DC: We have to keep them very moist. LK: Moist. DC: Everything has to moist. It has to be pliable. It has to be moist. If you&#039 ; re going to be weaving with almost anything, even with cloth, even with weeds, even with flowers or stems or, you know, branches. We do use willow, though, okay? Aurora willow, or the willow tree. We make baskets out of that too. If you ever notice the big acorn granaries, they call &#039 ; em, have you ever seen them on pictures-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --that the tribes had next to their kiichas or their ewaks for here in southern California, even northern California. They have great big acorn granaries. Those are made out of willow. They&#039 ; re woven green, and when they&#039 ; re woven green, uh, then they let―they dry. But do they use willow? Willow is a natural insecticide. It keeps the insects away from the acorns. And that&#039 ; s why they have them high up on a stilt like, or platform, to keep their small animal away from them, or whatever. But if they do―these small animals try to get to the acorn, then they can also plug it up, or whatever. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But those acorn granaries can last for hundreds of years, you know. They&#039 ; ve found, when they&#039 ; ve done research, you know, in the mountains or at their villages, you&#039 ; ll see a granary that is still up. But, it&#039 ; s a natural insecticide. People don&#039 ; t realize that the willow is a natural insecticide-- LK: That&#039 ; s interesting. DC: --to weave with it. LK: So, in traditional weaving, was it always the women, the tribal women, that did the baskets or did men-- DC: I would say-- LK: --create baskets as well? DC: Uh, yeah. Traditionally, mostly it was the women and the girls, okay? Because you&#039 ; ve got to think about--before contact, especially here in California, we&#039 ; re the last native people that were contacted as they came west-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―our baskets were used for cooking, for storage, for gifting, for birthing, for death. And that was our--they were utilized for everything. And that&#039 ; s why they can say that &quot ; Mission baskets were woven so tight that they can hold water.&quot ; LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Well, yes and no. The only reason why they can hold water is that the deer grass in what they&#039 ; ve coiled around swells. [laughs] LK: Oh. DC: So, but they also had the--and when they cooked in them, they used another plant that we do. It&#039 ; s more fire resistant. And that&#039 ; s your Trius lobata, or your sumac. And that&#039 ; s kind of―it&#039 ; s white. Have you ever seen baskets that have more of a white bottom to it? LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That&#039 ; s because it&#039 ; s usually with sumac, and that one has a resistance to fire. But, only be--resistance, how can I say this--fire tolerant but not to a point. When they cooked in baskets, the cooking baskets, they were done with a stick that they&#039 ; d keep moving [circles her right arm as if stirring], and they were used with river rocks, hot rocks in there. Central northern California used lava rocks a lot, but that had been tumbled in the rivers. But the ones that are here, we would probably get the smooth river rocks, and then you heat them up and then you put them into the basket, and you have to keep stirring them [makes a stirring motion with her right hand] into that food. Men probably did the baskets that were, um, that were for fishing, like the fish traps, or your great big, huge granaries,―LK: Oh, yeah. DC: Okay, on that? And they&#039 ; re made out of the willow. Um, they didn&#039 ; t make them--northern California, they made &#039 ; em a lot of out of the different plants up there, the branches there. But, almost all of them are made out of willow, you know, because it was pliable to work with. But, that&#039 ; s your bigger gathering baskets or fish traps, etc., you know. But mainly, it&#039 ; s mostly the women. But men did do that. We do have men today that are top weavers, um, so, we even have one in our tribe that&#039 ; s a fantastic weaver [chuckles]. LK: So, it&#039 ; s a form of functional art. I mean, &#039 ; cuz it is a form of art. That&#039 ; s what-- DC: Well, it didn&#039 ; t become a form of art until it--until I would say, after contact-- LK: Right. DC: --because it was a utility that we had to use, you know. It was something. LK: Right. It was functional. DC: Yeah, and I say, you know, when pots and pans came out, I, I would have been one that threw the baskets away. [laughs] Let&#039 ; s use a pot, too, you know. LK: [laughs] DC: It&#039 ; s just like when you gather your foods, you know. I gather the acorn and I make that wiiwish, we call it, the acorn mush. I use a processor to crack all my--you know, to mix it up, you know, and get the nuts, ground it down. You know, if you ever see these, um,--how can I say these--we call them gathering, gathering spots or metates are these big rocks that have the holes in them--the grinding area, they call &#039 ; em grinding stones, grinding-- Can you imagine the woman that&#039 ; s sitting there, or a child, or whatever, pounding acorn to get a meal out of it, you know, to get it real fine like a flour. And, and how long they pound it up there to get those holes in there. How old! You can just tell the age of the--by looking at these grinding areas, or grinding rocks that you see, how, how hard they must have done it, so it just--it didn&#039 ; t happen overnight, to make those holes, you know, in those rocks. It had to be― LK: Right. DC: [gesturing in a pounding motion] ―years and years of processing. And, uh, I&#039 ; ve tried it. We have two in our backyard, and I didn&#039 ; t last five minutes. Raising that rock, that pestle, over my head and pounding the acorn, okay? I mean, I couldn&#039 ; t, after that, I couldn&#039 ; t raise my hand after five minutes, or even three minutes. My mom was laughing at me out there― LK: [chuckles] DC: ―you know, and I said &quot ; Our women must have had--the women must have had shoulders and-- LK: Strong arms. DC: --biceps, strong arms, to do that, daily, every day, to get the acorn to get it ready for the mush because that was a staple for the people, you know, because the acorn--wiiwish, we call it--or the, um, what do they call it, with the Kumeyaay, um--we call it wiiwish, they call it, um, okay, I&#039 ; ve got to think about it. I know it starts with an &#039 ; s.&#039 ; But anyway, um, everyday. Because, see, that&#039 ; s 100% protein. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The acorn is 100% protein. So, it was a staple and it was also a replacement for when they didn&#039 ; t have any meat, you know, so it was always used. So, when these processors came through, they said &quot ; Diania, how come you don&#039 ; t do it the traditional way?&quot ; I said &quot ; Uh-uh&quot ; [shaking her head] I said &quot ; my ancestors would have popped in that, those electrical things to plug in, they would have used it too.&quot ; I said &quot ; There&#039 ; s no way I&#039 ; m going to go out there and you know, [she and Linda start laughing] and pound.&quot ; I mean it&#039 ; s kind of like a joke but it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s--you know, you know, when progress comes, I&#039 ; m sure they, they would have--they wouldn&#039 ; t have stayed with their old ways. That&#039 ; s how I look at it. [chuckles] LK: Circling back, you mentioned a few institutions like Cal State San Marcos, The Discovery Center in Carlsbad, CIBA, and you&#039 ; re part of the Pesticide― DC: Oh, Tribal― LK: ―with the National Parks? DC: Well, I belong also to the Tribal Pesticide Program Council through EPA. And that&#039 ; s because of the pesticides and insecticides and stuff that effect our, our plants. A lot of people don&#039 ; t realize that, when they see our traditional plants, they think they&#039 ; re weeds. LK: Oh. DC: And they&#039 ; ll spray them. Or also, that, um―there&#039 ; s drifts that happen and if you have native plants that are growing near there, and you&#039 ; re not aware of the native plants that are there, and if how they&#039 ; re spraying, and if the wind comes up [she makes a &quot ; whoosh&quot ; sound, and waves her hand in a broad sweep to indicate wind over field], the drift will go over there. There&#039 ; s no signs that tell you that &quot ; Hey, we&#039 ; re going to be spraying today!&quot ; LK: Mm-hmm. DC: County doesn&#039 ; t even tell you that, I mean, unless they come around, you know. The mosquitoes, like in Central California, Sacramento, they post it, because with all those rice fields that they have up there, they have to. They have to do that, spraying for the mosquitoes. And they do it by helicopter. And I&#039 ; ve been up there when they&#039 ; ve done that, and they&#039 ; ve got notices all over―&quot ; Shut Your Windows&quot ; , &quot ; Shut Your House&quot ; , &quot ; Stay in Your House Between This Hour and This Hour&quot ; ― because they&#039 ; re coming in and just sprayin&#039 ; and it goes all over your cars, etc., out there. In the University of Davis, Woodland, in that area. So, but they don&#039 ; t do that too much down here, okay. So, when you don&#039 ; t know about it, and then you see the plants and you&#039 ; re going to go through it, you don&#039 ; t know if it&#039 ; s been sprayed or anything, or drifted on. And then you pick it, and then you get it, and you put it in your mouth, or whatever, you smell it to see if it is, you get hit. And I&#039 ; ve had, that&#039 ; s how I got into pesticides. I went to pick a plant that I thought that the only way you can identify it is to smell it, so I popped it [gestures breaking a stem open] like you know you see you pop it, and I stuffed it up one nostril and within five minutes my whole side of my face went red [gestures a swipe across right side of her face]. Rushed in to Rincon Indian Health Center. They said &quot ; Diania, what did you do?&quot ; I says &quot ; okay, this is where I was at.&quot ; And, I had a chemical reaction, that it was sprayed, that it somehow got sprayed. And so I was on―the first time I got steroids, and shot with steroids and it&#039 ; s five-four-three-two-one [gestures counting on fingers], you know, you&#039 ; re taking all those pills, five days. Found out that the golf courses are the worst [chuckles] people, or development, or whatever, that use herbicides, pesticides, insecticides, any type of your &quot ; cides&quot ; they said, because they want to keep their grass green and they want to keep their flowers beautiful and colorful. They don&#039 ; t want any rodents. They don&#039 ; t want anything upsetting that golf course out there. And if you have any native plants that are near there, uh, they&#039 ; re probably going to get hit with that type of thing. And the golf course is another one that doesn&#039 ; t tell you that they&#039 ; re spraying. I don&#039 ; t, I&#039 ; ve never gone by a golf course that said &quot ; Hey, we&#039 ; re spraying today. There&#039 ; s a sign.&quot ; And I worry about the people that are out there golfing, okay. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, and I love to watch golf. Don&#039 ; t get me wrong. I mean, I enjoy, I&#039 ; m not a golfer but I love watching the Masters and stuff. And it goes through my head, when these guys are out there, and the women, you know, and they&#039 ; re walking in it, but you don&#039 ; t know if they&#039 ; ve been told about the spraying, or you know, if they have an asthma thing, or, or something like that. So what happened was that I got into pesticide with CIBA. [chuckles, and reaches to her left for a brochure] So then I was working, we worked with a brochure [laughs, and shows for the camera a brochure, then reads the front of it] they call, it&#039 ; s called &quot ; Pesticides: What Basket Weavers Should Know.&quot ; But, this doesn&#039 ; t just tell you for basket weavers. It&#039 ; s for everybody― LK: Mm-hmm. DC: ―okay? And the contact people [flips the brochure over, and points to the back side of the brochure] like for here in Southern California, you&#039 ; ve got the contact if you&#039 ; ve had this. It just tells you what to look for on native plants, if they look dead, if they&#039 ; re doing anything. [opens brochure and looks inside] I&#039 ; m trying to get EPA right now to try to start making us some more of these, but if I have some more, [turns the inside of the brochure to face the camera] like if I gave you, you know, some handouts that you could make your own, you know. They don&#039 ; t have to be in color. [closes brochure, but still holds it up] But, it&#039 ; s just an awareness about pesticides when you&#039 ; re out there. And it, you don&#039 ; t have to be gathering. You can just be taking a trail ride out there, or hiking. Your animals could come back with pesticides or insecticides on them, and then you have your kids rubbing them [gestures petting an animal], and playing with them, and hugging them, and then you wonder also why your child is coming out with a rash. Why are they coughing? Why are they sneezing? And so, most of the time, it&#039 ; s some type of spraying and it&#039 ; s out there. So I sit on that, that, across the United States, we&#039 ; ve got all the tribes. But the bigger tribes like the, your Black Feet and your Crow, etc. you know, they, they lease their land, because they&#039 ; ve got millions of acres on their reservations. So they lease their lands to Montanyo [sounds unsure]. One of that does soy beans, and corn, and all these big guys. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But they need to have the pesticides, but they&#039 ; re trying to regulate it more so especially on native ground or Indian country, because, um, they don&#039 ; t want to be digesting it. They don&#039 ; t want this corn and everything that is going out to the public to be digested, because if you go on to a lot of your other farms and stuff like this, they&#039 ; re not telling you what the pest―what is being used. But the, in the Indian country, they want to make sure it&#039 ; s safe. They don&#039 ; t want to get sick. They don&#039 ; t want their own families to get sick. So, it&#039 ; s a big political thing. But what had happened in northern California, how this--how CIBA became involved in the 90s, about &#039 ; 93, is that the weavers in northern California get their―they use a lot of roots. LK: Mmm-- DC: And they use a lot of willow roots. So, during the―on the rivers of northern California, they go high. But when they recede down, that&#039 ; s when the roots stick out from the, from the banks where all the willow trees are growing. And so they go into the water, and they&#039 ; re picking from the banks of the river, all the roots coming out [gesturing pulling something towards her]. LK: Uh-huh. DC: Okay? When you kind of think of, when the water is high [gestures raising up as in water level], this is where the roots are going. They&#039 ; re going to get water for the, for the trees. Well, industry up nor―up, up river, where they call, where they, where it is coming down into the river, they were dumping chemicals into the water-- LK: Hmmm-- DC: --as a dump. You&#039 ; re talking about the lumber mills, some of the uh, other industrial things are doing it. That&#039 ; s what was stuck in the salmon, also. And so the weavers were doing it. Then all of a sudden they were finding their elders the weavers were getting cancer around their mouth [gesturing around her mouth] LK: Oh, no. DC: And they were getting cancer inside. They were losing their teeth [pointing at her teeth]. And they couldn&#039 ; t figure out why. Because it wasn&#039 ; t just happening to just one tribe. It was happening to all the ones that, that were gathering, you know. You&#039 ; re talking the Pomo, the Uroquois, the Hupas, the Kuroks. All the ones that use this type of material. And so in &#039 ; 93, they found out that, they had EPA come out. They had this whole thing. They wrote a paper on it, a risk assessment, and found out that it was chemicals in the water when they tested the waters on these big ones. And so that started, for CIBA anyway, with the pesticides-- LK: Huh. DC: --to get on there, to be more sort of a―― how can I― a public, you know, awareness. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You can only educate. You can&#039 ; t stop it. You can only, you know. That&#039 ; s why you have all these, um, lawsuits right now, happening in northern California and their waters. Look at the salmon. What&#039 ; s happening, not just in California, but in Oregon and Washington with― because of the chemicals. Uh, you can&#039 ; t, sometimes you can&#039 ; t even eat, you know, some of that salmon because they can&#039 ; t even go upstream, because when they come upstream, they come back sick. And the worst one is in Alaska. LK: Right. DC: See, people don&#039 ; t want to hear about Alaska. But everything that we use down here in, in, in the &quot ; mainland&quot ; they call it, the chemicals, anything, okay, it all goes into our atmosphere, right? [points upward with both hands]. I mean, you spray, and it&#039 ; s going to go up. LK: Yep. DC: Okay, when it goes up, where does it go? It goes to the Poles. [gestures as if touching top and bottom of a globe] North Pole, north pole is getting it mostly. South Pole is not as much, because they don&#039 ; t get that drift like they did. But what it did, it collects up here [circles her hand in a rotating motion] in the atmosphere, and what it is, over Alaska in the Arctic area. That&#039 ; s why it&#039 ; s cleaning out too. Because it&#039 ; s just going around, all these chemicals. It, it forms a warmth and a heat. And that why, that&#039 ; s what&#039 ; s, and now when it rains up there, it drops down [laughs, and gestures as if something is falling] into their land and into their trees, and into their plants, and they&#039 ; re contaminated. And it&#039 ; s all because of us down here, meaning, I&#039 ; m saying &quot ; us&quot ; , mainland and you know, uh, North, Central, South America, all of us, you know, Europe, that using all these different chemicals and things like this, and drifts up [raises her hands up], collects in that atmosphere up there [circles in the air with her left hand], goes to the North Pole. It&#039 ; s going around and around. It rains, or whatever, and it comes down, [indicates rain coming down, with both hands] and that&#039 ; s why Alaska is having all those problems right now with their food [gestures as if counting on her left hand], climate change, the heating, etc. And, uh, a lot of it is the use of chemicals and pesticides. LK: Well, what started out as a― DC: [chuckles] LK: ―lessons in patience for you― DC: [bursts out laughing] LK: You&#039 ; ve expanded your knowledge to all aspects of basketry and, and working with other organizations. So, I know those aren&#039 ; t the only ones you work with, though, and I can list a couple just to jog your memory. I know you work with Camp Pendleton. DC: Oh, well yeah, well, Camp Pendleton is― LK: And Daly Ranch. DC: Daly Ranch. Well, Daly Ranch was because [sighs] I went to, I went to be a docent. Okay? Because I had to find something to do after, you know, I, and that I, before I had my surgery, I became a docent, and I wanted to do the trails. Okay? The native trails. But when I had, after my surgery, I couldn&#039 ; t do the walking anymore. And so they did have a small &quot ; Indian program&quot ; you know, on there. And one of the rangers I, you know, I, I love him dearly, he&#039 ; s still there, we worked together, he was the one that was doing the Native American aspect of the Daly Ranch, what they would give to the public and school district. Fifteen minutes [gestures making air quotes] is all he would have. So I went through his training, on the docents, and he brought in a native person from souther―from Kumeyaay territory, I think, a weaver. I can&#039 ; t think who the weaver is now. She did a display and stuff. And so Ranger Robert, I think I mentioned him, he did a lot, because of his sons were in Boy Scouts, you know, Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Eagle Scouts, and they had to do a lot of the native areas of, on there. So he made a lot of the artifacts that the Daly Ranch uses and I use right now for exhibit. And he learned about the plants, and the foods, etc. Well, he went to serve wiiwish, acorn. And when he served it, it was great. And I just went &quot ; What?&quot ; , you know. And it, it was [gesturing as if saying &#039 ; no&#039 ; with her fingers] I don&#039 ; t know. And I&#039 ; m going asking &quot ; How did you do this?&quot ; Well, he used the acorn, but he didn&#039 ; t use the acorns that we normally would use. He used a different type of acorn. And how he fixed it, or whatever. And so, when we had our barbeque when we graduated from the docent class, I went home [laughs] and I made the ______________. This is supposed to look like, okay, you know, our wiiwish does that. And he says &quot ; well, teach me!&quot ; So we started working together. Then they asked me if I would come in and do the native American part, you know, with the Daly Ranch. Daly Ranch through the 7th graders and the whole school district, in Escondido School District, they run the 7th graders through there for 6 weeks, in the Daly Ranch, twice a week, like a Tuesday and a Wednesday, from 8 o&#039 ; clock until 2. And we do about two hundred some a day. LK: Wow! DC: I&#039 ; m the native American part of it, and they do plants, and then they do insects, and then they do the large predators, you know, and then they, the tricks. But, I&#039 ; m the native American portion of it. It started out as 15 minutes, and now all of a sudden, now I&#039 ; m doing about 35 minutes, and just expanding it-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --to get them knowing that this was our first―you know, Daly Ranch is on the, one the land of native peoples. There&#039 ; s, there&#039 ; s areas out there on Daly Ranch that the public can&#039 ; t see, that know that they&#039 ; re―they live there. They have artifacts, etc., on that. So, um, and I got asked to, to do that. It&#039 ; s all voluntarily. If I get paid from anything for doing that―I&#039 ; ve been doing that going on 16 years now―it&#039 ; s a surprise for me, because they do it through grants. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: I started out, like I said, volunteering, and it had expanded it to bigger working with Fred Wood, who&#039 ; s a retired school teacher, you know, from a junior high, 8th grade. And I started with my cousin, Kathy Wallace, who&#039 ; s our story teller now, and her son Brandon―he was about 9 or 10 years old―we would do it together. Well, it got to a point to where she expanded out [gestures expansion thrusting her right hand out away from her], you know, he got older. And so, I had Teeter Romero used to come down for me and help me, from San Juan Capistrano. And then, also now, I got it for myself and it&#039 ; s hard to get people to want to take it over. Because the first question they ask &quot ; Well, how much do you get?&quot ; And I says &quot ; Nope.&quot ; I says &quot ; I can&#039 ; t guarantee you anything on that. If I get paid, it&#039 ; s a surprise for me at the end of the six weeks, depending on how much the grant through--It&#039 ; s through a grant, that they get― LK: Right. DC: ―that. That&#039 ; s to the Friends of the Daly Ranch. Even though the Daly Ranch is owned by the city of Escondido, this Friends of the Daly Ranch and the docents do it because of they want to. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The only ones that really get paid on there is the rangers, because they&#039 ; re employees of the city of Escondido. LK: Right. DC: And uh― LK: But that&#039 ; s not the only institution that you do work. You, you go to elementary schools and― DC: Well, yeah, I have. I did elementary schools. I think, you know, we do―like San Elijo. We&#039 ; ve been doing that for seven years, and that&#039 ; s during that one basket that I just showed you, with the Cherokee style. We do third graders there. [sighs] Before they built that new elementary school, we were doing anywhere from 2 to 300 hundred a day, in well, one day. We had it for 35 minutes, at 70, at the time. And then, because they had a program going. Kathy would be the story teller. They had adobe making. They had―and so these children are going [gestures in a round circle with her right hand] all day, every half hour they&#039 ; re going to another, another thing. I would have four weavers come in to help me. And then we would give a quick 10-minutes, 5-minute thing with parent volunteers, to come in and help to, to and I think you&#039 ; ve even done it before, [chuckles] to just help these students. And so you&#039 ; d have all these third graders in one room, sittin&#039 ; on the floor, on these things, ten, ten to a circle so I know it&#039 ; s seventy, because we had seventy cir―seven circles in there. We&#039 ; d done seventy at the time, forty-five at the time, and then within thirty-five minutes, you know, they&#039 ; re done. If they didn&#039 ; t finish this basket [holds up small basket which can fit in the palm of her hand] in their time, then they would take them with them and complete it in their ar--in their art department students. So we&#039 ; ve been doing that for quite a while. I&#039 ; ve done the thing with Cal State San Marcos with their students up there, giving the demonstrations, etc., given a talk. And then even teaching the students, you know, the basketry. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Same thing with the senior center, in El Corazon [gestures to Linda]. LK: El Corazon. DC: We just did that for three days, and they really enjoyed it. LK: We cannot leave out one other entity, which was the Mission-- DC: --Oh! LK: --San Luis Rey. How could we forget that. DC: [laughs] You know, she&#039 ; s sees, she&#039 ; s getting me into the basketry thing, here. Um, San Luis Rey--people don&#039 ; t understand. San Luis Rey is one of the missions here that is not part of the diocese, or owned by the Catholic Church, per se. They&#039 ; re owned by the Franciscan order of the Catholic Church. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Or, errr, I&#039 ; m not--I&#039 ; m a Catholic, but I&#039 ; m not that kind. I&#039 ; m not a practicing Catholic. Let&#039 ; s put it that way. But, um, so they&#039 ; re owned by the Franciscans. San Luis Rey, Santa Barbara, and there&#039 ; s one more, and I&#039 ; m going to better learn that one too because there&#039 ; s three missions in the state of California that are not part of the &quot ; Catholic.&quot ; San Juan Capistrano is part of the Orange County diocese. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And they bring in the most money for the missions in the state of California. San Juan Capistrano does, because you&#039 ; ve got to pay to get in, you know, and everything else. But anyway. The friars--well, they&#039 ; re not--they&#039 ; re friars--the Franciscan order, um, are there, at the San Luis Rey Mission. You don&#039 ; t know that they&#039 ; re there, because they&#039 ; re not really public other than when you see &#039 ; em walking around in their brown robes. They have a retreat there. They live there. They study there. They go through their schooling, sometimes, there at the San Luis Rey Mission. And I was notified by Gwen, the director, and Helena, whose at the museum, that they were having a retreat there. And they wanted a activity, and so Gwen says &quot ; Contact Diania, and see if they want to do a basketry.&quot ; Well, Father David, or Brother David--he&#039 ; s up at Santa Barbara now--he used to be here at San Luis Rey, and my brother used to work with him. And he knew I did baskets. That&#039 ; s why he probably agreed. But these Franciscans were coming from all over the world. They weren&#039 ; t just coming from the United States. They were coming as novices ; ones that are almost going to graduate into their order ; some that were graduated already into the order ; some that were retiring from the order. Some they didn&#039 ; t speak English. And, um, there was forty, almost fifty of them. LK: Forty-six. DC: Forty-six of them, and they were there for a week [chuckles] And they asked &quot ; Diania, would you mind doing, you know, a demonstration and talking about the basketry, or people, etc.?&quot ; My brother videoed it, you know, and I haven&#039 ; t really even seen it yet. I think he gave you a copy, right? LK: It&#039 ; s great. DC: Okay. I have to give Roberta--not Roberta, but Reinette and Ella Sue, I think, also. But, um, I says &quot ; Okay, I need four weavers, and uh, to do this.&quot ; And we did that in the back of the mission, and here I was expecting--when we were setting up, all of us were expecting--there&#039 ; s Linda Kallas, Ella Sue Snyder (she&#039 ; s a Acjachemen), Reinette (I can&#039 ; t pronounce her last name. My cousin--Reinette Omah, Olvera, but I can&#039 ; t pro--) LK: Olvera. DC: Yeah, but she goes by that Italian married-- LK: Contreras. DC: No, no. It starts with an &quot ; A&quot ; [indicates a letter &quot ; A&quot ; as if writing in the air]. Anyway. LK: Okay. DC: And you, and me, okay. Linda was--Linda, who was going to interview me, she goes &quot ; Me?&quot ; and I says &quot ; Oh yeah. You know how to do these! You&#039 ; ve been sittin&#039 ; with us for a while. You can come in here.&quot ; And we&#039 ; re going to do the Cherokee style basket. I just gave a talk about our traditional materials, etc. So, we get all set up and here come these men, you know, coming through. You know, I, I was expecting them to come into--with their robes on. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, their brown robes. That&#039 ; s what I was expecting. Here these men come in. They&#039 ; re in shorts. They got T-shirts on that say &quot ; Surf&#039 ; s Up!&quot ; you know. All these different things coming home with these hats, sandals, barefoot, you know. I mean, they&#039 ; re coming from the retreat area, you know, tennis shoes on, and all different ages. And it was interesting because I&#039 ; m going &quot ; Whoa, okay.&quot ; You would have, you would have put them on the street. You would not have known that they were friars, okay. And, uh, like I said, all ages. They had a--we had a good time, laughing, etc. Like I said, we do have that, um, if you knew my brother did with that. They were all anxious. They made beautiful baskets. [laughs] LK: They were so impressed with you, and um-- DC: You know. LK: They were so grateful and so full of gratitude for learning that skill-- DC: Yeah. Well, we took a lot-- LK: They really enjoyed it. DC: Well, we took a picture, a group picture, at the end and then we had all their baskets on top of that one rocker area. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And you can see that these baskets--[turning to her left, and reaching for something] I showed you this [holds up the little basket that she showed previously in the interview] and this is mine. But that doesn&#039 ; t mean that you&#039 ; re going to make the same thing like this. Your basket is, is going to be completely different. Even though they start out the same, your basket will be with what you create with your hands. [puts down basket] And so that&#039 ; s what they were really impressed with, because we had some beautiful baskets. You had some real nice round ones [gestures a round object]. You had flat ones [gestures flat object]. You had long ones [gestures a tall object] and they just had a good time. LK: They cherished them, right? DC: Oh, it was a--it was--it was--it was rewarding, you know, on that. But that&#039 ; s what happens when we do that. We did it with the seniors-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --out there, and they all thought that they were going to be making their own little ba--baskets that we showed them. And then when they finally was looking at it, even the men there, you know, everything was different. And so, that&#039 ; s what I enjoyed about the baskets. Even with the kids, you know, they don&#039 ; t-- No two baskets are alike. LK: Exactly. And, expanding on that, we have the elementary school named Pablo Tac after a Luiseño native that was educated in the Mission. But also, you&#039 ; re--you have an opportunity to demonstrate there coming up, correct? DC: Yes, coming up on November 4th, 2022. I&#039 ; ll be demonstrating and so will Roberta--hopefully Reinette will be there--traditional weaving. We&#039 ; re not going to be teaching. That&#039 ; s probably, hopefully coming up next year. LK: Yes. DC: You know, on that. We just had the demonstration also at Camp Pendleton. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Uh, there. I&#039 ; m a docent for the Santa Margarita Ranch and Lost Forest Ranch, docent there at Camp Pendleton. But I&#039 ; ve been working with the Archaeology department since, uh, ugh, &#039 ; 90s with Stan Berryman and then Danielle [Page], and now Kelly Bracken is in charge of it so--. Because we have a lot of sites there on ran--on Camp Pendleton. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: People don&#039 ; t realize it, that we&#039 ; ve got over 600 some building sites there, and sites, and sacred sites, etc., on Camp Pendleton, so we&#039 ; re kept close with the--they&#039 ; re kept close with the different tribes. And since I&#039 ; m the weaver in the native plants, I have a different aspect of it. I try to make that, if the plants are out there, please, you know, don&#039 ; t do this with them, and stuff. So, they notify us that if we have native plants there, do you want us to move them. Do you want to collect them, etc. They do have a native garden there that we do collect the deer grass from, which is up there by the pavilion, behind the new hospital. Um, that way I know they&#039 ; re not being sprayed, when we go there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: We just did elderberry tree, um, [chuckles] gathering from the berries, and I made some for your, for you for your husband. I thought I was making jelly, and it ended up being syrup. But he likes, he loves it, you know, &#039 ; cuz we gathered there at Camp Pendleton, because [chuckles again], because then I know that, um, also those aren&#039 ; t being sprayed. And, so there&#039 ; s different areas by Camp Pendleton. Plus, with the cultural, okay. And why I started with the, the new General, the Commander-in-Chief, there, at --I can&#039 ; t think of it. I just--I worked with her, and um, was--a-- how?--docent there for the Santa Margarita Ranch. They were going to be the ones dealing with the party. She had her fiesta there, a couple weeks ago. And, um, I didn&#039 ; t want to just be the docent dressed in the--how can I say this?-- We dressed in this Spanish shawl. I don&#039 ; t know if you&#039 ; ve seen the docents from center. [gestures to someone other than Linda Kallas, seated to her left] You&#039 ; ve been there, right? And, uh--Tanis. And, uh, we have that costume [still looking to the other person] or the regalia that they use. I&#039 ; m comin&#039 ; in, because I put these on [hold up her necklace] and I&#039 ; m, you know, trying to keep the Native American thing going there. And you heard me [points to person off camera, and continues to talk to him/her] this last meeting, you know, and Larry was over here [points to opposite direction, and laughs]. Uh, it&#039 ; s that, uh, react? That we&#039 ; ve forgotten, you know, on that. And they do think--they kind of forget us. But anyway, and so I says [still talking to the person off camera] &quot ; I&#039 ; m not going to be a docent. I just--can I come in and do traditional weaving, you know, with our people,&quot ; with her. And she just said [shaking her head]--she says &quot ; heck yes, please, let&#039 ; s come in&quot ; and stuff. So, um, I had the drapes on there. I wasn&#039 ; t going to go San Luis Rey Band because we were all San Luis Rey Band members that were going to do this traditional weaving demonstration. But we&#039 ; re all CIBA members also. So, I used this California Basket weavers --uh, weaving drape on our table. They put us up there, you know, with the rest of them, and, um, I had Mark, who is our weaver, one of our top weavers for our tribe. He had--he was demonstrating his baskets. We were all doing a demonstration, and, and appreciating that, you know, on there. That&#039 ; s the last thing we did on the traditional, you know, weaving thing with Camp Pendleton. Then we&#039 ; re going to do this one November 4. LK: And then the Jubilation of the Valley Festival? DC: Oh yeah, we&#039 ; re going to have, coming up in November-- LK: --the Luiseño Day. Mm-hmm-- DC: --Spirit of the Valley-- LK: --Spirit of the Valley. DC: --with Studio Ace. And we&#039 ; re going to be doing baskets there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And I&#039 ; m going to be doing teaching the Cherokee style-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --okay? It&#039 ; s not gonna--it&#039 ; s not Luiseño style. And so we&#039 ; re going to be doing, uh, [sighs] all day [laughs]-- LK: And you&#039 ; ve been invited-- DC: --from 11 to 3. LK: --to do basket weaving at a senior dance at the-- DC: Aw, come on now, [gestures pushing away from herself with her right hand] I know. LK: [laughs] DC: It&#039 ; s just a--thank you, Linda. Um, that&#039 ; s December 15th. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And that&#039 ; s coming in because of the senior center over there. That&#039 ; s just an activity they wanted us to do. Plus, we do basket traditional weaving in front of the Mission, hopefully, every 4th Sunday of the month. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: But sometimes we don&#039 ; t, because we have other things to do. So it&#039 ; s almost a contact--they--a website, or contact one of us to do that. We do it at Rancho Guajome, but we&#039 ; ll kind of travel with our weaving person. Um, one of the things I want to say is that I do get feedback sometimes from our own Indian people--&quot ; why are you in front of the Mission, Diania?&quot ; okay, you know. Because they see a pictures of the background where we&#039 ; re weaving, and, um--&quot ; why are you doing it on the, on the Mission grounds?&quot ; I mean, you have this animosity with some of our people that have gone through the Mission system and their ancestors were really treated bad, etc. I&#039 ; m not going to say the missions were the best things that happened to the indigenous people in the state of California, or even in the other missionaries throughout the, throughout the different tribal people-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --in Indian country. But, I&#039 ; m trying to tell them &quot ; I&#039 ; ll let you know. I&#039 ; m not there to, to praise the Mission. Don&#039 ; t get me wrong, okay? I have my aspects with them, too, but I&#039 ; m there--we&#039 ; re there, really, to respect and honor our ancestors that are buried there.&quot ; I&#039 ; ve got a lot of family that&#039 ; s buried there in that old cemetery. I know our ancestors had built that mission and helped it. We&#039 ; ve got a lot of ancestors that are buried in those grounds that aren&#039 ; t in the cemeteries. When you had your epidemics, the pox, the small pox epidemic-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --there&#039 ; s a lot of burials in, on those grounds at the Mission that had to do multiple burials real fast. So, we&#039 ; re there honoring our people. I&#039 ; m not there to honor the Mission. And, I have to let them know that. I mean, don&#039 ; t get me wrong. I was raised with the Catholic there. My mom went to school there. My great-grandfather, he was part, you know. Every Sunday it seemed like the Father was always there in his house at the ranch there in the valley, having dinner. But I don&#039 ; t really have that, um, hatred, or whatever you want to call it-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --to the Mission system. Yes, they know that they&#039 ; ve done wrong. My brother and I sit on the committee for the 225 anniversary that&#039 ; s coming up, honoring San Luis Rey Mission. I&#039 ; m there on it, and so is he, to make sure the indigenous people aren&#039 ; t forgotten. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: They&#039 ; ve got to have something that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s still representing, you know, them with the ethnic group. We have our powwow there that&#039 ; s been there for 23 years, you know. We just haven&#039 ; t had it since Covid. And that&#039 ; s another thing that&#039 ; s on the Mission grounds. You have some of the indigenous people who will not come to our powwow because it&#039 ; s on Indi--on mission grounds. But, to me, that&#039 ; s personal for them. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: The Mission has not been at a controversy for us. Yes, we know some of our ancestors were treated wrong, you know. You can walk in that Mission, and, um, you can see different things that, um, and the stories you hear, you know, and the longondria &lt ; sic&gt ; that&#039 ; s going down there, where they had to do the washing and stuff. You&#039 ; ve got Pablo Tac. You know, he came from that Mission, and was taught, who can, you know, going back to Barcelona, you know, and Rome also, and is buried over there, and died. But, um, you--we--how can I say this? San Luis Rey Mission, they, the Luiseños around the Mission San Luis Rey weren&#039 ; t as-- LK: It was a-- DC: --progressive as LK: --Luiseño village, correct? DC: Yes, it was a Luiseño village there, but they didn&#039 ; t attempt to burn it down like the Kumeyaay did, at the old--in San Diego. They burned that mission down three times [holds up three fingers]. But it comes with people, and how they took it, um, as a, as a rewards system, or whatever. Okay? They were fed! Can you imagine? I mean, ee were nomads and gatherers and movers. Meaning nomadic, it&#039 ; s not like we moved all over [gestures in a sweeping motion]. It was like we went from ocean to the mountains [points from right to left, indicating movement from west to east] to gather and to the desert [points forward]. You see what I&#039 ; m saying. As being nomadic. We didn&#039 ; t have &quot ; a permanent&quot ; village. We knew what village we came from, but if we had to go, you had people that probably stayed there, the elders, and then the rest went out to gather. But we weren&#039 ; t a warring people. Sure, we probably fought with the Kumeyaay and any others that came through. But with the Kumeyaay people, they were warring people. Now, they came from the, from the Colorado area. I mean, you&#039 ; re looking at warriors, you know, came across, and when they were doing that with the missions and stuff, you know, you--they--it was on their land. They, they didn&#039 ; t like it. They, you know, they, and they, to me, with San Diego Mission, um, and you read the history on that, it, it was, it was harsh. Where here, Father Peri --&#039 ; cuz remember, San Luis Rey was the 19th mission. It was the one that--it was at almost the end that it was built. Okay? And San Luis Capistrano really was the 2nd one. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then they come around there [circles her arm] and they built San Luis Rey, 19-what, a number 19, in 1798. Okay? So, you&#039 ; re looking at all these other missions that were built way before that. Father Peri, he--his system was more with the native people. Yes, you could come, but he let &#039 ; em build around him, also. But it was not the Fathers that were chased in the mission, the Indians. It was the soldiers at the--that&#039 ; s who were supposedly protecting the Fathers. They were the ones that went out and chased the Indians down. They were the ones that did the punishments, when they had their, their, their soldiers--the ones that were in charge--they took it to their head, you know, I mean, to do the punishment, because as far as native indigenous people were below the Mexican people. You had the Indians [gestures making layers, indicating layers of hierarchy], then you had the Mexicans, the Spaniards, you understand, that, that-- LK: Were higher, you know. DC: --hierarchy. So, um, I don&#039 ; t have that too much on there, you know, with that. Everybody has their own. I have it because the missions only because they kept &#039 ; em down [gestures downward with her right hand], and they did use &#039 ; em--I wouldn&#039 ; t--I don&#039 ; t use the word slave, but they--I guess, slave labor. They were the laborers, where else they really didn&#039 ; t--they didn&#039 ; t get paid. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: You know, on there. And then when the missions were done, and the secularization, when they did that, they were lost. They cried, you know. I mean, they were starving, because of that--and then what had happened, the ranchers got us here, Picos, the Marrons, the Couts, all of the rest of them--they went and destroyed the mission. They were, they were tearing it apart. They were taking the beams. They were taking all the statues. They were taking the different things, and using them to build. You know, you get some of these ranchers, they have some of the beams on that are from--that are from the Mission. The artifacts. LK: Wild. DC: You know. But you don&#039 ; t hear that side of the story. That&#039 ; s why at Camp Pendleton and Rancho Santa Margarita and them, when it, they hid the stories and that--&quot ; Come on, you guys, you know. Pico wasn&#039 ; t the best guy.&quot ; LK: Mm-hmm. DC: He, he was really one of those really against the Indians. LK: So, in addition to your passion and your education with the basketry, you are like a historian of your people, and the area, and I see that you brought some other materials. Is there anything you want share? DC: [again reaching to the left] Well, one of the things is that, uh, okay, and I know that for you, you&#039 ; re trying to do this. I did study the language [holds up some leaves of paper], but since I didn&#039 ; t--wasn&#039 ; t able to have--speak to somebody, I went through the Pechanga -- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --and they sent me to Cal State--I mean, to Riverside, also to the international classes that was there. But since I didn&#039 ; t have anybody to communicate with [gestures as if transmitting words to another person], it was hard for me. I can read it, and I can probably understand it when they&#039 ; re--when they start talking to me, you know-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --get the words right. But I&#039 ; m fortunate that I did have that. But this is one [looks at paper] of the things that I&#039 ; m going to share--I&#039 ; m going to be sharing this at the, uh, Spirit of the Valley, once they get over there. But it&#039 ; s like this one here, okay? [turns paper toward Linda. The paper is laminated, and has a colored drawing of a deer, with the word &#039 ; şúukat&#039 ; ] You hear that one What&#039 ; s that? LK: Soosh-kah? Soo-kah-- DC: Soos-kwaht, okay? LK: Soos-kwaht. DC: Deer. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: Okay. I&#039 ; m just going to be doing that. This is for the children. Ishwoot? [holds up a laminated drawing of a wolf with word &#039 ; ˈíswut&#039 ; ] What&#039 ; s that? Ishwoot. LK: That is a wolf. DC: Yeah, wolf. Okay? And then this is something that I use with kids [holds up a laminated drawing of a grasshopper with word &#039 ; wiˈét&#039 ; ]. Whee-uht. LK: Grasshopper. DC: Or cricket. LK: Or cricket. DC: Yeah. Whee-uht. And so, you see in these names--why I use these, because you see in these names, being with the native kids now, that they&#039 ; re being named this. [holds up a laminated drawing of a bear with word &#039 ; húnwut&#039 ; ] LK: Hunwhat. DC: Hunwhat. LK: It&#039 ; s a bear. DC: It&#039 ; s a bear. Children are being named that now, with these, especially with these names here, with their--for the children. They&#039 ; re proud of being called &#039 ; hun-what.&#039 ; They&#039 ; re proud of being called &#039 ; soos-kwaht,&#039 ; called--proud of being called &#039 ; whee-uht,&#039 ; you know, instead of just being called &quot ; cricket,&quot ; you know, on there. And so that was one of the things that I found I have been proud to do, you know, on that. And then, also, you have &quot ; Tuk-woot&quot ; [holds up a laminated drawing of a cougar with word &#039 ; túˈkwet&#039 ; ]. Who is this? LK: A cougar or mountain lion. DC: It&#039 ; s a cougar, okay? LK: Cougar? DC: You have &#039 ; tuk-woot&#039 ; village, &#039 ; tuk-woot&#039 ; village, &#039 ; tuk-woot&#039 ; court, at Cal State San Marcos! LK: Yes, that&#039 ; s right! DC: Okay? &quot ; Aush-woot?&quot ; [holds up a laminated drawing of a hawk with word &#039 ; áşwut&#039 ; ] I know that&#039 ; s not a [unintelligible] of an eagle, but that&#039 ; s an &#039 ; aush-woot.&#039 ; The eagle. LK: The eagle. DC: Yeah. And these are words that, um, are the alphabet, pretty long, you know, and considered more than 26 letters, that are important to the kids because they can identify with them. You know. I also have a coloring book, and you know, 1-2-3 and stuff like that I&#039 ; m sharing. But one of these [reaches to the left for something else] that I want to end with, if you don&#039 ; t mind, is that if, um, [sighs] in 2004, this is the Heritage Keepers [holds up a magazine entitled &quot ; Heritage Keepers&quot ; ]. This is a magazine coming from the Ramon Learning Center [reads back of magazine] LK: Hmmm. DC: Okay. And, um, it&#039 ; s still going on from Banning, California. And I wrote a poem [opening magazine, and finding page where poem is printed], um, and I wanted to read it and share it with you. Is that okay? LK: Yes! I would love that. DC: Okay. It&#039 ; s that, um, I wrote this poem when I was doing the--learning the Luiseño language, and I had to write this poem because I was, um, trying to pull the words out [gestures as if churning things over in her head] of my head that I knew. And where I was at--it was Teeter Romero and I were up in Rainbow, up there by north of us here. And we were going to go out there to gather Juncus in Gomez Creek area, which is behind Riamb--Rainbow. You gotta go up the mountain. And when we were up there at the top of the hill--it was early in the morning, and we stopped because we looked out towards the valley towards the ocean [points to the left] and that morning it was clear. You can--you could--you could see the, see the ocean shining clear at the, at the other end, which is really not-- [shakes her head]. But then you saw El Moro Kukutuk, okay? That&#039 ; s another story. One day you might have to say it, but Kutukutuk too, is part of our creation story. And you can see that mound really clearly, with the ocean in the background, shimmering, and that mound there in the valley near Camp Pendleton, and Bonsall and Fallbrook area. In this part of our creation story, I got these things in my head as I&#039 ; m looking at it, and I thought of our people. Because of the creation story, of trying to be saved. They were, they--we had the flood, also, in our creation story. And all I could think of, and was watching it, seeing the ocean shimmering, seeing that mound and thinking of &quot ; Oh my God, that&#039 ; s what came up. The ocean came up.&quot ; And the people were running, because the water was coming in and coming in, and they had nothing to save &#039 ; em. And the people from Pechanga were up there on their high point [points up with left hand], which is up there by Rainbow. If you ever go by Pechanga on the back way you&#039 ; ll see the big hill that&#039 ; s up there. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: That&#039 ; s one of their lookouts, and I don&#039 ; t know that there--the name of it, but it&#039 ; s a point. And they were looking at the people, you know, the Luiseño people in the valley, running. And all they could do was keep singing. Now I don&#039 ; t--I have the words to that song, that they had-- that they started there. But, I don&#039 ; t have that with me right now. But they were singing up there to hopefully save their people. They&#039 ; re crying for them, and trying to save, save their people. Well, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, this mound comes up. And so they were watching their people swimming towards it, and running towards it. And this mound kept coming up, and that&#039 ; s more--El Moro Hill, or Kuktuk. That is a volcano cone. People don&#039 ; t realize that, you know, we do have volcanic areas-- [laughs] LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --in this area. And that&#039 ; s a volcano cone that came up and our people in that valley, meaning my ancestors, okay--were saved. They were able to go on to Tuktuk, El Moro Hill, and come up, and go up there. You can visit that here--uh, that mound or that little knoll or dell, if you want to call it. It&#039 ; s on Indian Rock Road. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: It&#039 ; s Sleeping Indian Rock. It&#039 ; s Sleeping Indian Road [scratches head] right there. Part of it&#039 ; s on Camp Pendleton. Part of it&#039 ; s in Fallbrook. And, part of it is owned by the County of San Diego. You can&#039 ; t build on it. You can build on--near it, but you can&#039 ; t build on the Camp Pendleton side, because that&#039 ; s a blind--ammunition dump. And the Navy owns it. Fallbrook owns a third of it, and San Diego County owns a third. There&#039 ; s a trail that you can go up on there, if you want to visit it and go, and there&#039 ; s a hearth on the top that they do celebrations, ceremonies up there. My great-grandmother was born there, at the base of that El Moro Hill. So, yeah, we&#039 ; ve got history in there, and, you know, our aunt used to tell--my aunt, my great aunt, used to tell stories, you know, about that-- LK: Mm-hmm. DC: --and they used to go, go there. But what I did was wrote a poem as I was doing, uh, looking at it, and I was thinking, my language is going in my head, but I could only pick out some words that I knew at that time. So it&#039 ; s called &quot ; Naqmayam&quot ; and I was saying it--first saying it in Luiseño, then I&#039 ; ll read it again in English, what it meant. LK: Okay. DC: Okay. It says &quot ; Naqmayam. Toonquay qawiinga/noo toowq &#039 ; ataxmi/naqmayam/noo toowq &#039 ; ataxmi heelaqal/&#039 ; ataaxum naqmawun! Popuu&#039 ; uk ponakilvoy/yu&#039 ; pan heth&#039 ; aan/no$uun toonavan &#039 ; ataaxum poomoto/naqmayam! Heelaxam!&quot ; Now, I usually sing this, I know. It&#039 ; s just--it&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s--I usually--it sticks after a while, I&#039 ; m singing it, because I do sing it, at the Mission on All Soul&#039 ; s Day. [chuckles] So, if you come on All Soul&#039 ; s Day, on November 2nd, around 6 o&#039 ; clock, between 6 and 6:30, I&#039 ; ll be doing it and lighting the candles there, and I&#039 ; ll be--I can sing it. And why I like to sing it, it&#039 ; s sometimes I can hear my voice [gestures to her right ear], it bounces off the mission wall. It scared me the first time that it happened-- LK: [chuckles] DC: --because I never had an echo come back like that. And, anyway, &quot ; naqmayam&quot ; means &quot ; listen.&quot ; &quot ; Toonquay qawiinga&quot ; means &quot ; from the rock on the mountain.&quot ; Naqmayam. I see the people. I see the people singing. People listen. The door was closed. Again it will open. My heart will weave among the people. Listen and sing. I wasn&#039 ; t looking at them crying, you know. I was thinking about them singing, and being happy. And the door was closed at one time for us, but it was now opening. LK: Mm-hmm. DC: And then my heart, at that time, with the weaving, there, my heart will weave among the people. And, um, so it was kind of, you know--and they published it, in that--in that--in there-- LK: It&#039 ; s beautiful. DC: --It kind of gives the story of me. This has happened in 2003 [laughs]. And that&#039 ; s how long ago, with the language. And I&#039 ; m still trying to bring the language back, you know, I mean, we did it with--for a while when we were together with the Rotary Club. But then again I&#039 ; m doing it, trying to get it back with people, and with our people, on that. It&#039 ; s still going on at the Pechanga, with this fantastic Pechanga . I started back with them, way back when, and they started at the preschool. And then, now, they&#039 ; ve taken it all the way up through their 6th grade there on their reservation at Pechanga. They don&#039 ; t speak any English in the classes. All their instructors or the teachers have to learn the language. It&#039 ; s taught in Luiseño. They&#039 ; ve got an agreement with the school district of Temecula, that they follow them all the way through school, all the way through high school, that they have to release them at least, I don&#039 ; t know how many times a week, to be brought in and taught their language, to keep it up. LK: That&#039 ; s wonderful. DC: They take it all the way through high school. But, Pechanga has done really good. Pauma is also―has a class there, you know. Pauma does. Rincon does. Pala, uh, I don&#039 ; t know if Pala does. But, each one has a different, like a dialect, you know. The only sad thing is when you get politics coming in. I&#039 ; m just going to let you guys know. Politics is really deep within the tribes, on there, and um, I&#039 ; m right, you&#039 ; re wrong, etc. And it&#039 ; s sad, because we&#039 ; re all the one people, but that&#039 ; s the way it goes. You&#039 ; re born into being an indigenous people, not just for us here in California, but across the United States. You&#039 ; re born into politics, whether you like it or not. So, um― LK: Well, I just want to close with saying that it&#039 ; s been an honor and absolute pleasure to interview you and listen to you. I want to acknowledge that you went from accounting to weaving to becoming an educator of your pe―of your tribal background, and also a historian, and I think a big part of your legacy is to keep this out there. And you&#039 ; re doing it pretty much on your own. It&#039 ; s not like you have all this, um, Federal money behind you, like the federally recognized tribes, so― DC: We don&#039 ; t have that [shaking her head] LK: ―you do not have that. You&#039 ; re not federally recognized. But I just wanted to honor that in you, and thank you so much for allowing me to do this. DC: Okay. LK: No $uun. DC: Noh [bowing her head, and chuckling] I was going to say No $uun Looviq. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CaudellDiania_KallasLinda_2022-10-17_access.xml CaudellDiania_KallasLinda_2022-10-17_access.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Caudell, Diania. Interview October 27, 2022 Description An account of the resource Interview with Diania Caudell focused on her Native American ancestry as well as her past occupation as an accountant. Also included is her implementation of Native American education in the San Juan Capistrano School District and how her back injury led her to become a basket weaver. The written transcription of this interview also contains a glossary and poem in Luiseño with English translation, written by Caudell in 2003. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-22 Subject The topic of the resource Basket making Education -- Native Americans Luiseño Indians Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-10-27 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Diania Caudell Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Linda Kallas Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Luiseño Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Diania Caudell Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Art and artists Community history Native American experience North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Ho Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dilcie Perez OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PerezDilcie_HoJennifer_2023-05-30.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Perez, Dilcie. Interview May 30, 2023 SC027-43 01:25:52 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; Education, Higher ; California State University. Multicultural Programs ; California State University San Marcos. Student Affirmative Action ; California State University San Marcos. Student Academic Services Outreach Program ; Mural painting and decoration ; Human rights Dilcie Perez Jennifer Ho Video PerezDilcie_HoJennifer_2023-05-30.mp4 1:|14(12)|25(19)|35(6)|51(10)|66(8)|85(4)|98(10)|112(13)|136(9)|154(3)|167(3)|181(15)|195(3)|210(8)|227(5)|246(5)|257(3)|276(8)|297(11)|326(16)|336(17)|354(3)|368(12)|379(6)|397(16)|416(9)|428(16)|441(4)|458(14)|477(6)|489(3)|502(3)|516(13)|530(9)|545(9)|556(5)|568(15)|580(8)|594(7)|608(5)|626(9)|641(8)|657(14)|669(15)|686(7)|700(16)|711(9)|725(14)|740(3)|757(8)|772(4)|786(7)|816(6)|831(15)|843(12)|855(14)|869(5)|882(6)|895(4)|910(9)|924(14)|938(6)|953(13)|971(11)|988(4)|1006(7)|1039(3)|1051(12)|1071(13)|1084(7)|1102(16)|1118(16)|1125(9)|1142(17)|1156(10)|1176(7)|1195(4)|1218(3)|1244(4)|1261(8)|1285(9)|1303(9)|1320(6)|1335(10)|1360(14)|1380(3) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/16aaafbcb8a9a79b2431516903eafa19.mp4 Other video english 0 Interview Introduction 0 21 Childhood and Education Perez describes what her life was like as a child from a military family, she traveled to various places and graduated high school in Japan. As an adopted child she describes her family dynamic. Perez then goes on to explain how she collected various credits from community colleges and finished her bachelors at California State University San Marcos and received a Masters at Central Michigan. &#13 ; &#13 ; Adopted ; Bachelors ; Masters ; Military ; Japan ; California State University San Marcos 0 211 Moving to California/ First Impressions of CSUSM Perez moved to California because her husband at the time was to be stationed at Camp Pendleton, California. She then describes that at her CSUSM orientation she realized how advanced the campus was in regards to DEI (Diversity, equity and inclusion) work. Camp Pendleton ; military ; Diversity, equity and inclusion ; California State University San Marcos 0 357 Early Career Experiences Perez worked in Student Affirmative Action (SAA) as a student and was participating in outreach and various programming in schools. After graduating she worked at GEICO in North Carolina and shortly after received a job at CSUSM for a position in Student Academic Services Outreach Program. Student Affirmative Action ; Student Academic Services Outreach Program ; Assistant Outreach Coordinator ; CSUSM ; GEICO 0 537 Experience at CSUSM Perez describes her experience as a non-traditional student since she came in with credits from various community colleges and was married with a full time job. She explains how great the faculty was at CSUSM and how they genuinely cared for their students. Perez created a deep connection with her professors and still considers them as lifetime mentors. She treasures the opportunity to star in a production on campus that expressed the diversity of the lives of seven African women. non-traditional student ; married ; faculty ; CSUSM ; mentor ; Third Word Counselor's Association ; DEI ; Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow Wasn’t Enough (Is Enuf) 0 936 Planning the 10th Anniversary Event Perez explains how when she came back to plan the 10th anniversary event for CSUSM the campus was going through an identity crisis. She was trying to make the campus more relatable. CSUSM ; Charger girls ; Jazz ; Mature ; Relatable 0 1170 Cross-Cultural Center Forming Out of a Crisis When Perez was first working at CSUSM there were little to no student-centered spaces. There were political issues on campus and no visible form of DEI being practiced. She quit her position in Student Academic Services Outreach Program (SASOP) due to burnout and in response people in administration provided a new opportunity for Perez, to be the Associate Director of Multicultural Programs in which would mark the beginning of the Cross-Cultural Center. Student Academic Services Outreach Program ; Western Association of Schools and Colleges ; Associate Director of Multicultural Programs 0 1561 Creating a Vision for the Cross-Cultural Center Perez explains how she hit the ground running when she began building Multicultural Programs. She spent time talking to the community and building relationships by creating various programs and events to provide representation on campus. Perez describes the struggle of getting a space on campus for the department and how people undermined the importance of the program itself. Multicultural Program ; Tukwut ; Powwow ; DEIJ ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Multicultural Programs 0 1859 Building a Foundation for the Cross-Cultural Center Perez describes how she would make space deals with various organizations to grow the Cross-Cultural Center. She expresses how she had to manage creating learning outcomes for the students while bringing in new faculty for the center. She explains how it took some years for the campus to adopt diversity practices. Cross-Cultural Center ; Institute for Social Justice and Equity ; WASC ; diversity 0 2211 How CSUSM Shaped Her Perez expresses not only her childhood but the programs and community at CSUSM shaped her into being the person she is today and prepared her for her career. She changed her viewpoint within DEIJ work and realized identity-based centers are only impactful when student support is the main focus. CSUSM ; Veterans Center ; Student Affirmative Action ; Third Word Counseling Association 0 2668 The Role of Identity-Based Centers Perez explains the importance of intersectionality and how the different centers play a role independently but also in unison as one. She explains how the focus should be on social mobility and supporting students regardless of their identity. Perez discusses how different campuses will have a different approach but there should always be a sense of faculty engagement. intesectionality ; identity-based center ; faculty engagement ; support 0 3128 What Students Needed and Addressing Discriminatory Issues Perez discusses how she spent time communicating with staff and students to understand the needs and necessary representation for the campus. She states that it wasn't until she became dean that she got involved in discriminatory issues on campus and recollects specific issues. She describes issues between student and faculty, and between faculty and faculty in which helped her to gain new viewpoints in regards to DEIJ. DEIJ ; Celebration of Culture ; CSUSM ; Gala GATSA 0 3865 Important People That Built the CCC Perez names a few people that helped make the Cross-Cultural Center and worked on building it up in the early years. Cross-Cultural Center 0 4007 The Third Space/ Current Role Perez explains how her research in the concept of the third space showed her how strengths and characteristics of certain cultures can blend into a single space. She discusses her current role (as Deputy Vice Chancellor, Academic and Student Affairs at the CSU) and who she works closely with in carrying out her daily tasks. The Third Space ; CSUSM ; Deputy Vice Chancellor of Academic and Student Affairs 0 4265 Mural for the Cross-Cultural Center Perez discusses how the campus supported DEIJ work and there seemed to be no obstacles along the way. She talks about the making of a mural for the Cross-Cultural Center in which provided a visual marker of unity and diversity for the center. mural ; arts ; Cross-Cultural Center ; DEIJ ; Diversity ; Unity 0 4586 Program Funding/Making Campus Traditions Perez explains how Multicultural Programs was created out of a lottery fund and that they often fought for space on campus. She discusses deals she would make with other programs and how she made connections within the community. Perez recollects on how traditions were made and how she was given total freedom to make big moves on campus. Cross-Cultural Center ; Tukwut Life ; Friday Night ; traditions 0 4873 Proud to Be a Part of CCC Perez expresses her deep gratitude and pride to be apart of creating the CCC and how Floyd Lai has expanded DEIJ work on campus. She explains how faculty has continued to add and beautify the CCC. DEIJ ; Proud ; Mad As Hell ; Social Justice Summit 0 Video Dilcie Perez is a California State University San Marcos (CSUSM) alumna. She graduated with her degree in Bachelors of Arts in Political Science. In this interview, Perez explains how CSUSM was ahead of its time in regards to DEI (diversity, equity and inclusion) work ; however at the beginning of her employment with CSUSM, the university did not have Multicultural Programs (the predecessor to the Cross-Cultural Center). Perez recalls her work with Multicultural Programs, including her being offered the opportunity to open the program upon tendering her resignation to the university. Jennifer Ho: Okay. Today is May 30th, 2023. My name is Jennifer Ho, and I am interviewing Dr. Dilcie Perez for the CSUSM (California State University San Marcos) Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) Oral History Project. Thank you so much for being with me today, Dr. Perez. How are you? Dilcie Perez: Thank you so much. I appreciate the opportunity. Ho: Great. Okay, so I just wanted to start with a little bit about you personally. Can you tell me where you're from? Perez: No (both laugh). So I grew up in a military family, so I had the wonderful opportunity to live in places like Arizona and Maine and California, and Okinawa and traveled around and graduated high school in Okinawa, Japan. And moved to California as--in the nineties, early nineties. And had started , when I graduated high school in Japan, I wasn't sure where I wanted to go to college. And so I kind of took a lot of classes at community colleges. And when I moved to California someone said to me, “Have you ever heard of a place called Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos?” And at that time, I had not. And so they said, “Oh, they have programs at the time for juniors and seniors, and so you should check them out.” And so I applied to go to school at San Marcos and was accepted. And so I can talk about that later, obviously. But I, my, I come from a family of--I have my parents and I have two brothers, and I am the only girl and the youngest. However, I was also adopted, and so found my biological family later in life. And so in that family, I am the oldest of three girls. And so, have a wonderfully blended family. My education, I graduated from Cal State San Marcos in (19)94-ish. And I say that because I had the wonderful opportunity to speak at commencement in (19)94 as the speaker, one of the student speakers. And, and I think my speech might, I don't know if it's in the archives, but there's gotta be some video or something of all the, the different commencements. But moved immediately after that to North Carolina and had two classes to finish. And so I was also pregnant at the time, and so it took me about a year to get those two classes done. So I walked in (19)94, but my, my diploma says (19)95. And came back to San Marcos and then went and got my master's at Central Michigan. So they have--they had a military on-base education. And so they would fly out the instructors from Central Michigan to do an executive master's program. And this is back in the early 2000s. So this was years ago. And then I waited thirteen years to go back and get my doctorate from San Diego State in educational leadership with the emphasis in community college. Ho: Thank you. Can I ask you what brought you out to California in the first place? Perez: Yeah, the military. So I met my ex-husband in Okinawa, and then we moved to North Carolina, and then he received orders to Camp Pendleton. And so we lived in Oceanside actually at that time, and then I went to school. Ho: Okay. Okay. That's great. What were your impressions of--of California, of San Diego, of Oceanside when you, when you arrived for the first time? Perez: Yeah, I don't think that I had anything particularly of California. Because I traveled the world. And so it was another place. I remember living in--off of Mission Avenue and just appreciating being close to the beach and the weather. And but I will tell you this, that I came, so when this was (19)91-ish. And when someone referenced, like to go to Cal State San Marcos, and I say this, I tell the story all the time: that when I applied to Cal State San Marcos, got accepted, I went to orientation. And orientation at that time in 1992 was at Cal State Jerome's. So you've probably heard the stories across the street. Ho: Yep. Perez: And I can see it. One, I will tell you, I still have my 1992 orientation binder that I received when I came. Still. So I've traveled and moved. But I recently was, you know, consolidating. I was like, “No, I'm keeping this, like this is good, important stuff in 1992.” And I will tell you that what is pivotal for me of having been in a military family traveling the world, that I remember walking out of orientation feeling like it was a place that I belonged because of the message of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And, you know, in (19)92, we didn't always use those words. Ho: Right. Perez: But, but diversity was a value for the campus from the start. And I remember people, someone at orientation saying, “We don't want to be a melting pot. That's old, outdated language.” And this was in (19)92, right? “Because a melting pot blends everyone together, and you can't tell the difference. We wanna be a salad bowl and we want everyone to have a unique.” And so that resonated with me that I felt like I found a place, even at my orientation in 1992 at Cal State San Marcos. Ho: Wow, that's, that's amazing. That's really great to hear. So is that--just to fast forward a little bit, is that what brought you back to CSUSM? Perez: That's interesting. So literally when I worked in as a student, I worked in what was at the time Student Affirmative Action. So they called it SAA. Someone by the name of Denise Hollis became a mentor. I think Eric Cardoso or folks in Student Affirmative Action (Program). And this was obviously before Prop 209. That then started to abolish offices such as that, right? And so when I worked in those areas and SASOP (Student Academic Services Outreach Program) and stuff, I was a student going out and doing motivational outreach. So we would do programs in schools, and I was going out doing that, and I had such a powerful experience as a student. And I moved to North Carolina right after I graduated for a year and a half, two years. And when I came back, I was at a party, like a barbecue, I can't remember. And someone said to me, “Hey, you know I got a new job.” It was somebody that I worked for. She said, “I got a new job.” And I was like, “Ah, I want your job.” Like, “I want your job.” And she just started laughing. She was like, “Ha.” I was like, “No, no, no, no, no, no. I really want your job.” Like, “What do I need to do?” And her assignment was temporary. And so this was--so really why I came back to work was because there was a temporary opportunity. It was an Assistant Outreach Coordinator in Student Academic Services Outreach Program. And so I started back at the campus that I love so much, and really in official capacity doing what I had done as a student. Ho: That's wonderful. And was that after you got your, your doctorate from SDSU? Perez: No. So this is all in 1998, (19)90. So I graduated in (19)95. I was in Fayetteville, North Carolina. And then I came back, I think in (19)97 and worked for GEICO, did temp work. I was like, “What's my life's purpose? Where am I headed? What am I doing?” And then I met her at this party or saw her again at this party. And then the rest is history about (CSU) San Marcos, because I left, there's a lot to the story. But I left, but stayed for a long time and really had a great professional experience. Ho: That's wonderful. Do you remember the name of the person from the party? Perez: Oh, Mary Wardell. Um-hmm. Ho: Mary Wardell. Perez: Yeah. She was, she worked in Student Affirmative Action, and she moved and went to the Dean of Students' Office, was an Assistant Dean of Students. And that's when I saw her. 'Cause she had just received that pro-- promotion. Now she works at--she moved to, I think, University of the Pacific, but she does DEI work, she’s done written books and done amazing things in this area. Yeah. Ho: Thank you. Perez: Yeah. Ho: So now backtracking again. I wanna hear about your time as a student, because obviously it had a profound impact on you. So, so did it meet--did being a student meet your expectations after that orientation? And can you tell me about some experiences on campus and the people that you met and some pivotal moments? Perez: Oh, I love it! So I will tell you that I (laughs)--I, I had a fun experience at (California State) San Marcos, but I wasn't your traditional student. Like, I didn't know what a Dean of Students was. I didn't know about higher education. I knew that I had gone, I didn't learn this until later. I'd gone to like six different community colleges picking up classes. I spent time at the University of North Carolina at Wilmington, picking up classes. So I was going to school constantly, but picking up classes as we traveled. And so when I got to, you know, (CSU) San Marcos, it--you have to remember the culture was so different because it was so small and the faculty and the students were so tight. And when I arrived, there were no first year students. It was only juniors and seniors. And we only had three buildings. So Science Hall, Academic Hall, and maybe well, Administration Building, Craven, which is not Craven anymore. So it was those three buildings. And I will say to you that I was married, right? And so I was working during the day, I was going to school, and I took classes. I will tell you, that's really profound. And to this point, I'm still connected to these faculty members today. Leslie Zomalt. So, you know, the (Ernest and Leslie) Zomalt Award they're very, I'm very close to them. She was my faculty member in California History and we're still close. And she gave me a B! Like a B, a B. So I was like, “Why do I like you so much? You gave me a B.” But she was so good because she would, what I loved about her--I was going through a personal, difficult personal situation during that time, and I must have missed class or something must have happened that, she called me and she said, “I realize that you're not around. I wanna check on you and see how you're doing.” And that was pivotal to me. I remember that she went to a conference and she loves to read. She still loves to--I, I'm going to her house for quilting. She got me connected to quilting. I hate quilting. I hate it. I hate it. But I love you know, I, when I came back one time, I said to her, “Will you make me a quilt?” Is what I said to her. Literally this bold. And she said, “I will not make you a quilt. I will teach you how to quilt.” And I was like, “Ah, okay.” So, but every year, for about ten to fifteen years, we have quilted at her house for a year, for at one time a year. Now, I don't quilt any other time. I still hate quilting. But I love the sense of community and the mentorship and the love that goes into it, that I literally will quilt one thing within my range once a year when I go. And so I will say to you that what I think about at San Mar--and Jill Watts. So let me tell you, Jill Watts is still there. She is a historian beyond historians. And, and I talked about her in, in my commencement speech that the best African American History class I have ever taken is by a white woman. Hands down. She is brilliant. She is, you know, phenomenal. It's funny, even when I worked at (California State) San Marcos, I wouldn't see her as much, but she would just beam every time that she saw me because she knew who I was as a student. I remember that Peter Zwick, I don't know if you've heard that name. He used to be over (at) Global Affairs at the time, but was really a hard, hard political science instructor. Like people were scared of him. Hard. And I decided, 'cause I was lost, I was gonna do Poli Sci as a major. And he, I went to him, who's my faculty advisor too. He must've been. And I sat there and I said, “I'm graduating in May.” And he was like, “Dilcie, how are you graduating when you haven't hardly taken any political science classes?” I was like, “It’s a technicality. Technicality.” So I took twenty-one units, most of those political science classes, upper division in one semester. Ho: Wow! Perez: I thought I was going to die. And I think a few of them, 'cause he was a hard one, like one or two were with him. But I will tell you this, is that one, it was hard 'cause I was working and taking twenty-one units and picking up. But I will tell you that that was the best I did. That was the only semester I've ever made Dean's list (laughs) in my college career, because I knew I didn't have a lot of room to play. But I will say to you that as I think about (Cal State) San Marcos, it was pivotal to me because of the relationships, particularly with faculty that I established. Denise Hollis was administration, but we were, we used to go to a Third Word Counselor's Association. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but it was years ago, and it was doing DEI work, and they were taking us there to those events. But even during the time, so I didn't get involved in a lot of co-curricular events. I have a colleague now, that used to work at Chancellor's Office and I just had an event for her. And I was like, we went to college together at (CSU) San Marcos. She's very--Sabrina Sanders. We went to college. And I was like, I don't completely remember her, but we went to college together. Right. Because she remembers me. And I just wasn't involved in a co-curricular way. So I would tell you my co-curricular experience really was the relationships with them. But we did a play. So this is in the archives as well, but for Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow Wasn’t Enough (Is Enuf). Ho: Okay. Perez: We, we all practiced for months. I--months on weekends and nights and did this two-weekend play or maybe one weekend. And it was in like the school newspaper. Gezai (Berhane) showed it to me later, that we all did this play. It was sold out in ACD 102 sold out. It was just wonderful. That--those are the pivotal moments for me. My orientation, my relationship with faculty, my--spending time in that (production). That's what I think when I think about my (CSU) San Marcos experience that I treasure the most. Ho: That's lovely. Thank you. And what did you say the title of that play was? Perez: For Color Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow (Is) Enuf. So it's about seven African American women and the diversity of their life. Ho: Thank you. Perez: Yeah, it has some pretty heavy topics in it, quite honestly. And so that's what made it so impressive quite honestly. Yeah. Ho: And can you speak a bit about--about the culture on campus for you as a student? Whatever comes to mind, but in particular I'm interested in, in culture and community and, and DEI and, and different groups of students. Perez: So, that's an interesting, I am grateful for this question. I don't think that I was mindful enough to know at the time with words and language what I was experiencing. I think I felt like I mattered. That I was making relationships and making connections. And I, and I hate to--I don't always like the cliche of mattering and belonging because I think people have to unpack that and think about what that means. But I will tell you, I felt like I belonged at (CSU) San Marcos from day one. From day one. And so--but I also didn't have a lot of needs, right? So at that point in time for the two years that I was there, two or three I think it served the need that I had as a non-traditional student. When I came back in (19)97, the campus had changed because the first-year students came in (19)95. So it was not the same. We--I could tell we were going through an identity crisis, right? We were planning the 10th anniversary event when I returned, and I brought the (laughs) Charger girls. I was gonna bring them to the event. And I don't know if you know, but back in the day and you have to be careful about this, this part, but back in the day we had a librarian who was heavily involved in the campus and (laughs). Ho: Okay Perez: And there was a lot of music, it (was) like jazz, right? That works for an older population. And so it was wonderful for the campus when there was juniors and seniors and older people, but first-year students and sophomores (laughs), I don’t--jazz isn’t it all--like, we have to be more than that. And so I really was proud of myself, quite honestly. And I was like, I got the Charger girls! They're coming into this event. They literally took me to, we--I don't know if you've heard of Surge? So Surge used to be the coffee shop. Ho: Okay. Perez: That was on the corner, kind of down by--by Block C by, you know where the quad is? It was on the corner there. There's a real estate office there now. They took me down to the Surge for coffee and they said, “We don't want T&amp ; A at our event.” Like, and I said, “What? Like, the Charger girls are like, like professionals (laughs)! Like they, they're not, they're not T&amp ; A, what’re you talking about?” But they would not let me bring the Charger girls to that event. I had to cancel them. Ho: Oh my goodness. Wow. Perez: And I think that the campus was in that transition from this kind of older and more mature thing to saying we have to be more relate--like, I was trying to push us to be more relatable and it did not work that day at all (laughs). Ho: Wow, what a conversation that must have been. Perez: Oh, it was fun. But you know, I've always, I've always liked to get into good trouble, right? Ho: Yeah. Perez: And so for me it was then how are we meeting the needs of students? Because what we, what we did for, it was supposed to be like 10th anniversary in a preview day, and it really was just, you know, the same old thing that we had been doing all of that, that time period. So-- Ho: Okay. Perez: Yeah. Ho: Did--are you saying the event turned out to be kind of the same old, same old? Perez: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Ho: Okay. Okay. Perez: 10th anniversary jazz ensemble (laughs). Yeah. Ho: Okay. Okay. Perez: And people showed up, but it wasn't what you really would think of, of a traditional college experience. So we went through transitional times such as that. Ho: Okay. Well that's a good segue into the Cross-Cultural Center then. So when you were a student at that time, there was not a Cross-Cultural Center, is that correct? Perez: That's correct. Ho: Okay. So when you came back to CSUSM in a staff role what are your first memories of rumblings of a Cross-Cultural Center, of a Multicultural Center? Do you remember? Perez: None. None. So let me put the context around, and this is where it--it's a, it's an interesting story. So if I go back to (19)98, (19)97, I worked in Student Academic Services Outreach Program. So SASOP doing early outreach, motivation, academic preparation. And I would say that that team and the people were diverse. We had the Dome (food services originally operated by San Diego State University’s Aztec Shops) as a space, which was really, if I remember correctly, only the primary kind of student-centered space. There wasn't a lot, you had lunch there, right? And you ate there, everything happened in the Dome. I would say to you, we were going through as a division, a lot of work around our values and trying to clarify and integrate our values in our, in for the team. And I would say to you what was hard, I'm trying to remember. I remember that there were WASC (Western Association of Schools and Colleges) self-study and that it came back with some campus climate challenges. Ho: Uh-hmm. Perez: And I remember, and all my years kind of blur, right? So, but I have a time period of when, like pre--I have to explain it. But when I was in SASOP, I was heavily involved in a lot of different things. In outreach. And I remember, I think during that time, there was a noose hanging on the tree outside of Academic Hall. Not, excuse me, I'm lying to you. Outside of the Administration Building. So that fifth, fifth floor, you have Founders' Plaza, there was that--there's a tree there. Ho: Yeah. Perez: That tree had a noose. And so that caused a lot of energy. So the part that's interesting is that I was heavily involved in the community. I was working tremendously. And I think I had kind of burnt out, honestly, in outreach. So I was there five and a half, six years, and I had been thinking about, I need to change. I need to do something differently. And so I was driving to work one day, and I had talked to my ex-husband. I was like, “I think I'm, I'm done. Like, I'm tired, like I'm exhausted.” And he, he said, “(I) support you, do what you need to do.” And I had written a letter and I had it for like months and I hadn't done anything with it. And then one day I was driving to work and I can tell you exactly where I was when I was driving to work. And I said, “I'm done.” And so I came in to the office and I gave them my notice. And one thing that I will tell you is that when someone quits a job and gets another job, most people will say, “Oh, Jennifer got another job. She's moving on to better things.” Well, you get a lot of attention when you say, “I'm leaving.” And they're like, “Where are you going?” And I'm like, “Nowhere. I'm just done here.” And so folks in administration came to me and they said, “Hey, you know, we don't want you to leave. What's going on?” And one of the administrators said, “If we create an opportunity for you, will you stay?” And I was like, “Eh, I don't, I don't think so. No, no, no. I--I'm pretty tired.” And the campus threw a big going away party for me, huge. But what they had said to me is, “Leave, go ahead. Take two weeks. Don't, we're not gonna submit everything. You go think about this opportunity and let us know.” And I will tell you that it was until that last day, I think they had given me till 1:00 PM and they said, and I called at twelve fifty-five because I wasn't going to do it. I was tired. And the opportunity that they had was the Associate Director of Multicultural Programs. And so that was the first start to the Cross-Cultural Center. So that is how, honestly, it really--and so I'll tell you that what I know now, after I got into that position was we were doing 2010 visioning at that time. And I, this was, you're talking 2002 when I, when I shifted. Two thousand two/three. And they had already, I would say Jonathan Pollard, you've probably heard that name, and Bridget Blanshan. Ho: Uh-hmm. Perez: They had done some visioning, 2010 visioning. And, and I don't know, I could, I don't, I can't dig probably for you, but they have it-- Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: This document. And in it, they had said they wanted to open Multicultural Programs and hire and do a space. So what happened, I believe, is that there was me saying, “I'm outta (laughs). I'm gone.” The campus not wanting to necessarily just let me walk away. And knowing they had an opportunity for strength and growth under Bridget is when I accepted and changed and came and opened Multicultural Programs. Ho: Wow. It's a good thing you put in that notice. Perez: Oh, who you telling (Ho laughs)? 'Cause the campus one, I'll tell you this. And if I'm being quite honest, and I, if I had tried to apply for that type of role--as an outsider to a place, I don't, I would've not received that role. I didn't have the pedigree. I didn't have, you know, sure I had some of the education, but what people used to say at the time is that you're not a traditional Student Affairs practitioner. And I actually resent that type of statement because I don't think there's a traditional student affairs person anymore. Like that's old thinking. Ho: Uh-hmm. Perez: But I would say to you that I think I wouldn't have, I, what, what I believe was happening is I had established strong relationships. People knew my quality of work, knew that I would come in and at least set the ground running. That, that that's what I did. And so, honestly, when I came in, started the position, and literally I was in a cubicle inside on the fourth floor of Craven (Hall) and really had to set the, the vision. And so I met with nineteen, twenty people and I said, “What are our needs on campus? What do we think we should be doing? What do you want Multicultural Programs to be?” And I created oh my gosh, so many programs that first year. Like I was a party of one and a student assistant. But we started, I remember, oh, I can't remember. There's, there has to be somewhere. I did a flag, it had international flags everywhere. And we did a culture of celebration, or celebration of culture. Celebration of Culture was the first event. And then in that time, we started with--I partnered with Jonathan (Pollard) to start the African American Faculty Staff Association. We did the fires. We had the (brush) fires. And so we, because part of my job was volunteerism too. They threw volunteerism and engagement in there. So I did a fire, a drive, a, a clothing drive for the for out of the center for the victims of the fire. I did Soul Food Lunch, helped start Soul Food Lunch, which is gone now, but Soul Food Lunch, I think we did over 20 programs that first year that I was there. But it was all because of what people told me they wanted and what we needed. Oh, Powwow! I did the planning of the (Tukwut) Powwow with everyone. I, oh man. I could try and go back. Like we just, it, it really, I was, it was a way in which I could engage the community and build relationships across the campus. And so that is the foundation for how I really began to, I think cement my knowledge base in DEIJ (Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Justice). Was really kind of this piecemealing and building. And so the piece that I will tell you is I, between Bridget (Blanshan) and I, I can't--we advocated for the space next door to Student Life and Leadership. And it's a square wall. It was it--that room? Hon--it is so small. Do you hear me? It is so small. But, we put a couch. I went and got a couch from (unclear) who, I don't know if you know her, she works. I went to her house and picked up a couch. We got--we built me a cubicle in there because I thought it was important to have a separation of space between any students. We did all this stuff. Oh my gosh. We were in there and they tried to come and take that space. I remember one of our academic colleagues, literally, I was sitting in the space and I turned around and she's standing there summing up the space for sure. And didn't say a word to me, and then turned around and walked out. And I remember going to Bridget and saying, “You've got to be kidding me. Right?” Like, you can't come while someone's sitting in the space trying to sum it up for, 'cause space wars were real. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: And I think at that time, people didn't realize the power of a Cross-Cultural Center. And there was intentionality and, you know, we called it Multicultural Programs. And then I opened up the Cross-Cultural Center, and literally, as I see how you've written it, we had, do you put the dash in between Cross-Cultural Center and do we not? And later on there was the, the version of, is it C3, which we branded and branded well. And then, then people hated that brand, and then they had to move, which is fine, right? But I often, I laugh because I can't believe that the Cross-Cultural name has still stayed. And, and I'm exceptionally proud. This part, we may not wanna put too public, but that's the one center that has had no controversy (laughs) on the campus. Ho: Really (both talking)? Perez: Right? Yeah. Ho: So there was no pushback or anything when you started? Perez: Nah, Nah, none. No. Um-um. And they could have. But I think because the campus was small, I had great relationships. The way in which I did--did it in relationship. It was a community effort. People were engaged, people were support(ive). None. None. But I will say to you too that the way in which we approached DEI work was pretty soft at that time. You know, it was a very supportive nature. I wasn't tackling policy. I wasn't, you know, tackling searches and recruitments, and I was building community and that level of awareness around what we can do collectively. I think I wrote a mission in the beginning. But here's the thing: I will tell you that I was, in my humble opinion, the grassroots person, because I got it going. And gave, gave. And then I was there 18 months maybe, and then I moved to Japan. And when I came back, Alexis Motevirgin had taken it to a more formal place. And, and I was like, I think we had a mission statement back then? But Alexis, I think really formalized the mission and the work. I just, I just was the grassroots starter for all of that at the time. And then Alexis came, stayed just a few months, right? And then I, I think that I hired Augie (Augustin Garibay) and he didn't stay very long. Augie Garibay and then hired Sara, Sara Sheikh. And then she stayed for a little bit and moved on. And then Floyd (Lai), and he's the longest standing. Really, I think built a solid foundation. I was there. So this is where it gets weird. Because I was, I would say the associate director, or the first, however we wanna frame it for Cross-Cultural Center. But I was there from 2003-ish to (200)4 into (200)4, so probably eighteen months. And then I went to Japan, and I was gone a year and a half, and then I came back. So part of my work in the evolution of the Cross-Cultural Center, was when I was the Director of Student Life, and it was in my portfolio. So had the ability--so I was making--I hate, I feel awkward because it's almost like you're bragging. And so I'm trying not to brag. But we used to make lots of deals back then. So I would hustle to make deals for space, quite honestly. And so--we moved Student Life. So this was part of the plan. We moved Student Life to third floor, right? And that in the rotunda, I don't know what's the, it's Guardian Scholars, I think there're now, but it has a weird kind of diagonal room. Ho: Um-huh. Perez: So we went from the fourth floor down to the rotunda, and it was small in an awkward space, small. So we were there not too long. And then I worked a deal to switch. We put Leadership Programs down, I believe, or student org(anization)s down in the rotunda and in Commons 206 area, right across where I think Alumni Affairs is. We got a really good space and partnered with ASI (Associated Students Incorporated), they gave us that space to put the Cross-Cultural Center up there. And that's when the Cross-Cultural Center got its real visibility because it was in a prominent space, gorgeous space. Great. We had couches. Alexis, you might hear in stories about these beautiful red couches. So by the time I came back from Japan, these beautiful red couches were in the space. Those couches have lasted for a long time. People used those couches. I, when I got back, I actually--I tell people at the Chancellor's Office, bought a TV for the space. I wanted to buy a TV to do announcements on this, on the thing. And this isn't, you're talking about 2000. Whatever. And Bridget was so cute. She was like, “What are your student learning outcomes for them?” And I was like, “What?” So, you know, I had to, you know, write whatever. And then some things happened with staffing, and someone filed a whistleblower on me for buying the TV. Because I bought the TV. Uh-huh. And so I had to defend at the--for the Chancellor's office why I bought this TV for this Cross-Cultural Center back in the day. So it's interesting that what we consider is normal, were some things that as you build the infrastructure, right? And, you know, when you build something like this, people want it to be all things to all people. And I think that when I started, that was easy because it was just building. But as you've seen the iteration, I think each of the people who have led it have really had to think about what is the purpose of the center and the space, and how can it be most effective? Ho: So then when you were, when you were building, what was the purpose of it in your mind? Perez: Yeah. I think one, to provide space, a safe space for our students. To be a centralized resource and location. So I would say to you that in some ways I was, you know, the start of a diversity person on the campus in that realm. It was kind of a catchall at that time. I think that it, it--whether articulated or not, was to build really kind of the celebratory awareness events. And have the visibility and do that work to acknowledge the diversity of our communities on the campuses. And I--I'm having a hard time kind of remembering between the two roles, but I began to get brought into, we had an Institute for Social Justice and Equity that was created, a center. And that when I got back, we were heavily involved in. A lot of the bias response pieces because of student life I was involved in. And so I think it became a resource. And when I got back from the CSU--when I got back from Japan, I will tell you that it was then that I--we got really involved in more serious things. So some of the campus climate pieces, the WASC pieces, there was a, maybe diversity committee that was working on a diversity statement for the campus that I think we worked on that for a long time and it never got out. But what did get out of that, or come out of that work on that committee was the very first Diversity Officer. And so that was Gary Rollinson, who then I think in that. Dowd, spent some time in that. And then, you know, (Willie) “Derrick” Crawford, and then now, you know, there's Arturo Ocampo and then Aswad (Allen, current Chief Diversity Officer). So I think it was the foundational really for a lot of the diversity work that was happening on the campus. Ho: So you mentioned when we first started this conversation, you were really a part of a lot of different communities as a kid. So military, you were adopted, which I imagine had a profound impact on your sense of identity and being. And then moving from place to place and having to integrate yourself into these different places. So do you think that that this childhood experience of--of being maybe different in so many ways from so many different people, had any impact on, on this career that you found yourself in at CSUSM? Perez: Oh, I love this question. I don't know. When I was doing my doctoral work there was a pivotal, a quote that has been pivotal to my life. It says, “Everything changes, everything's connected, pay attention.” And I would say to you that while I was trying to figure out what the purpose of my life was going to be, (laughs) working at GEICO, coming to work in outreach, right? Susan Mitchell, who has since passed away, was a great mentor in telling me I was a leader without the position. Like in instilling this belief in me, I would say to you that every experience I had at (CSU) San Marcos prepared me for that role. That my work in outreach and Student Affirmative Action to the Third Word Counseling Association that I talked to you about, to the outreach to the people that I worked with and the value statements to the engagement that I had as a student. Yeah. I mean, all of that. I think you pull from those as tools, right? What I do think helped is I love the community. And I think to your point I don't think even then I understood as a student what it meant to be an African American woman. I don't know that I understood how all of my identities felt, but I did know what it meant to feel like you mattered and belonged, and how to resource and the support on the campus. That even though I'm not first gen(eration), both of my parents went to college, I know I struggled at points. Like, it wasn't until I applied to go to grad school that I realized I pulled my (CSU) San Marcos transcript, and I was like, “Really? I wasn't that bad of a student. Why did I feel like I wasn't a good student?” Like, I literally did not see myself as a good student, right? I was just doing what I needed to do to possibly get out. You know, my GPA ended up like a 3.11, but all the stuff I was doing and the movement and the, you know--but I, I would say to you that I think that sure, I pull on all of that because you want students to have a good experience. And what has happened since then with my research around a concept called Third Space, I do believe it's our role to break down any obstacles and challenges that students have to face. And I think that's the way in which I've approached the work is that sometimes it's, it's our organizational structures that are weeding students out. And that to me is probably the greatest social inequity of all. Ho: Especially on a college campus of all things. Perez: Especially on a college campus. That's supposed to, while we reflect society, we should often we should be a safe space. Ho: Hmm. Perez: I will tell you that during my time, so you're talking when I was director of SLL (Student Life and Leadership), then the Associate Dean, then Dean of Students, right? So all these are kind of merged, but once the Cross-Cultural Center opened, I had the opportunity to partner with John Segoria and Vicki Hernandez to open the Veterans Center. Then the president pulled on a team of us after a list of demands. And I just, I had the opportunity a few years ago to participate in the Latino Resource Center and helping them get started. And that came out of crisis. And so we created that. That I--I was gonna tell you some piece about that, but oh, that Floyd had invited me back, I think, for the 15th year. Or whatever. And when we were opening the Latino Resource Center, some folks thought that as we were having that, I would, I would raise questions. And I said, “If we, if we open a Latino Resource Center (Latin /X Center), are we ready to open a center for all identities?” Because that's what's gonna happen. And I'm, and, and people thought I was against it, and I was like, “No, no, no, no, no, no.” Because if you look, we had started the Cross-Cultural Center because we understood that the intersectionality of all of our identities. And so we were trying to build the model originally off of the value of the intersectionality. Right? And then as life happens in society and on the campus, there was a need. And so the Latino Resource Center, I was like, I'm not against it. I'm just asking are we ready to open additional centers? And to the president's credit, she was , because then the Black Resource Center (Black Student Center) came, the Dreamer Center came, right? And additional centers. And so I will tell you that when he invited me to come back for the 15th year and speak, I wrote a speech that I had to think about because I was like, where am I at? Is it Cross-Cultural Center or is it all the different identity-based centers? And I will tell you, I was at MiraCosta (Community College) at the time, and I wrote in the speech, I said, until we make DEIJ training mandatory across the institution, because the reality is those that choose to come to the trainings do, but those aren't the folks who are making it a chilly spot. Not always discriminatory, but chilly, and making it difficult for students until they are mandated to go to training and they get to opt out. Oh, we best believe we need centers. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: To get rid of all of the isms, to get rid of all the things that are hindering our students. You absolutely need a safe space. And so I am for whatever identity-based center we feel like we need that can validate students, provide the academic and co-curricular support to students all day, every day. So I put that in the speech, right? That at, at the 15th (year) and tell me that the students at MiraCosta got a hold of that speech somehow, and they were trying to fight for a Latino center. And they quoted that speech and plastered it all over campus, because they also feel like if she's saying that we need that there, why wouldn't we need that here? And so, I will tell you, I've shifted my approach, actually. I think cross-cultural is important, but I, I think identity-based centers as we need them, are critically important until we're going to focus on the entire organization and hold everyone accountable to creating student support. You know, it's not, I--I really, quite honestly, you have a choice to believe what you want to believe. I'm not here to, to force people to believe. But what you can't do, or what you won't do is weed a student out because of your beliefs. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: Or cause an obstacle for a student. That, that we, we need to understand that there are societal injustices, that mirror themselves in our college campuses that we need to mitigate if we're really truly serious about doing this work. Ho: Could you elaborate a bit on--on why identity focused centers are so important and also their relationship to a, a Multicultural Center? Like what, what is, what is the difference, frankly? Perez: Well, I don't know. And I, and I would tell you, I think Floyd's been working on that, right? Because what you probably know is that we had so many discussions in the beginning because the students, it was always busy in the Cross-Cultural Center. But it was our APIDA (Asian-Pacific Islander Desi American) students that were in there and using the space. And so people were like, “Well, you have to have an APIDA center 'cause that's who's in there.” And we had so many conversations in the beginning around how do you diversify the space. Because it's not just about our APIDA students. The reality is it is any student taking territory. Claiming territory. Like what do you do to make sure the space is, you know, culturally diverse? And at some point, we just gave up quite honestly, because we didn't feel like that was our right to then try and mess with the dynamics. Like create a space where people, if they choose to walk in the door, that they would feel welcome. Does that make sense? But we will not exclude anyone from the spaces like the space. That's what it is here for. And so, I will tell you that I think that I don't know, and I haven't been connected in a very long time, in an in-depth way, if we have ever clearly achieved the, the goal of the intersectionality and how a Cross-Cultural center or could really, really benefit that. I think you would, quite honestly, there's nuances between multicultural and cross-cultural, right? And I think you will play, people don't call, and they may now. Multicultural. And so Multicultural Programs died that, that term. I think I-- and Floyd had it in his title for a while, but I can't remember where that ended up. But I would say to you that I think as we think about the future, that really is the essence. That the identity-based senders, I don't, you can't silo my identity, right? So I am an African-American woman. Does that make sense? I am a military dependent family member. That is a huge, huge part of my identity. I am a woman. Gender Equity Center. I am an ally to LGBTQ. Like, so to think that a student, we can silo the identities of students? But what I will tell you is this, I find community in ways that are authentic to me. So what I love about the identity based, and it's a different idea, is I get to choose which identity I'm (unclear) in those moments. I don't have to pick them, because I do think sometimes in our work, we're back to the melting pot concept, where we're like, “Let's just be all happy and get along.” And we really don't create that space for the uniqueness of our identities to come forward. So what I love about where (CSU) San Marcos is now is honestly, yeah. They were willing to open centers for like, when I was there. There's two other centers popping up, right? You know, what I, what I think is interesting is you have the National Latino Resource Center. And you have the Latino Resource Center (Latin /X Center), and you have the Dreamers Center. And my question is, how are all of them partnering and working together? And are we creating living learning spaces? Because I will tell you, I don't think you need separate spaces just for belonging. What we need are spaces that allow a student to live and to learn. And often the connection to academic, their academics is critically important. Does that make sense? Like, I will tell you, I do a lot of work around basic needs. This is not a popular statement that I'm about to make, but everything we do for students' basic needs should be connected to them moving forward to achieve their educational goals. Period. If we're not helping a student progress forward or persist, the reality (is) we're not a social service agency. That is not our area of expertise. What we are is, as I see Jennifer as a student, Jennifer has needs, some of them are more immediate, some are more long-term. So, Jennifer, how can I help connect you for your immediate, basic needs, to a community organization? Cal-fresh. Housing. That can help you so that I'm not, I'm, I'm helping you to fish. Not just trying to fix this need right now. Because oftentimes people will say, “Well, Jennifer can't go to school because she has so many life things.” And I'm like, yeah, but the reality is we have to balance, how do we supply the needs? So Jennifer, 'cause that's, that's social mobility for a student. That's what's gonna change a life. That's what, that's what we want. We wanna change our life through helping Jennifer get their degree. Ho: Yeah. Perez: Am I preaching to you? But that's what, to me, the crux of what we're doing is, I think every campus is gonna be different, quite honestly. And I think (CSU) San Marcos has found its niche, right? I think when it moved all the identity-based centers into a unit. So that they can collaborate, coordinate, partner. I think it's fabulous. Ho: So do you see do you see a trend with college campuses overall moving from multicultural centers to, to these focused, identity-based? Perez: So I've changed and morphed a little bit too. And I will tell you that it's funny. My, my vision is similar, but different. And I think that's from being at (CSU) San Marcos, but also having the identity-based spaces conversation at MiraCosta Community College, and then Cerritos College, and then now in the system. I would tell you my ideal, which is not new to me. Does that make sense? It's just the model, model that I love, is where you have this cross-- and this kind of was where we had started, but it never got there. Cross-Cultural is the hub, right? But then you would have physical spaces because symbolism matters to identities. But you would have some spaces connected. So you could have your LGBTQIA, you could have Gender Equity, you could have, you know, I'm trying to—Black--you know, all the different centers that aren't necessarily disconnected. The hub is the cross-cultural part. So (California State University) Fullerton, to my understanding, has this model where they have a coordinator for each, but they're all interconnected in their work and in the way they do this. That to me is the ideal quite honestly. I don't think having separate spaces across campuses, across whatever are the ideal. I think having them where there could be a synergy together. I think (CSU) San Marcos is close, right? Because most of them are in the (University Student) Union. They've done a really good job of trying to put everything in the Union. Some are a few out, you know, I used to serve on the California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center’s taskforce. And then, you know, I just learned they're working to do a Native Center. And I was like, but you have two, like two spaces, like two, like what's the difference? So, you know, I don't know where it starts or stops. I just think that each campus has to have its hand on the pulse of what their students need. And I think engaging faculty in these spaces matters. You know, that is one of the most critical relationships. Is I've talked about my experiences. You know, it could be a staff member. Absolutely. But your faculty relationships matter. Ho: Yeah. When you were, when you were starting out as this, as the Associate--Associate Director-- (Both talking) Perez: Director-- Ho: --of Multicultural Spaces, is that correct? Perez: Multicultural Programs. (Both talking) Ho: Multicultural Programs. Perez: Um-huh. Ho: Okay. Thank you. You said you spoke to different people on campus. Did that include students and faculty as well? Perez: Yeah. You know, it--my world was so blended. So the, the, the thing that's a little different at (CSU) San Marcos--so when I left San Marcos in 2016, I would tell you and I give all credit, Lorena, Mesa, and Checka at the time, they threw a phenomenal party. I would tell you mostly faculty were there, right? So the way in which I navigated the campus was really fluid between Student Affairs and Academic Affairs. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: Yes. I mean, I would tell you, like, can I remember? I--I think I met with Gary Rollinson. I think I remember meeting with advisors. I think students, I don't have the list, obviously. It was 19 years ago. Which is crazy. But yeah, I mean, I think we, we just were more fluid between the organization back then that, yeah, I remember meeting with as many people that would meet with me. Ho: That's great. And did that include students as well? Perez: Yes. But I can't tell you the exact names of the students. Yes. Ho: Oh, that's okay. That's fine. One of my questions on my list here is what did the students say that they wanted? Perez: Yeah. Yeah. I think what's hard for me is what a student would say today and what a student would say in 2004 are very different things. So I think we're, we are more knowledgeable about DEIJ language. And about--I hate to say it this way, but the hatred, the discrimination, the oppression that's in the world. And I think that at the point when we started our work around DEI was still kind of in the--I I hate to say it, in the happy phase. So you know how I said the Latino Center--resource center was built out of crisis, right? And the Black Resource Center, I think a crisis. Veterans Center, not so much. I think it was us being strategic and the community. But the Cross-Cultural Center wasn't built out of a crisis. It was built out of an opportunity to strengthen the student experience and to create a resource for students. So I would say to you that I think students at that point were wanting a sense of community. Does that make sense? Wanting a pla-- a space. So space, which we gave. They wanted the celebratory aspects. Like we talked about the Powwow, and I don't know if the powwow has come back to San Marcos. It was huge, the Powwow, huge, huge! It took months to plan those things. So I went in as the University Liaison to the groups to help them plan that. Gala GATSA for the Oaxacan community. I was on the Gala GATSA community. I remember sitting in the back and, and I think this is me and Cross-Cultural Center, literally (laughs). I had never been to a Gala GATSA before. It was five thousand people! Do you hear me? Five thousand. We, this was, these were huge community events. I was sitting in the back next to and Humberto Garcia, (Jr.). I don't know if he's still there in risk managing--manager. Girl, they threw whole pineapples and cantaloupes through the audience. I'm literally standing there and I was like, is that, is that a whole pineapple? That's a tradition in the, like, in that, you know. But so for us, I think it was more of just really being there to support students. It wasn't until I became a dean, quite honestly, and I got into to the associate director (position) that I started tackling some of those more difficult, sensitive--it was probably director on that, that I was in those conversations that were tackling some of the discrimination that was happening on campuses. You know, there were many conversations where faculty members were saying and doing things that they shouldn't be saying or doing that I as a dean or you know, would say, you can't, that's, you can't do that (laughs). Like, no. We had a faculty member that were, they were very upset about students and their perception of, and they tried to kick students out of the class. And you know, I went in and the faculty member literally when I went in and said, “What the f are you doing here?” And I was like, “You have a right to an advocate and so do students. And so I'm here as a student advocate.” And so we had the conversation and that faculty member said, “You're wasting my effing time.” And just so you're, you're taught if I'm dealing with this! If, if I'm dealing with this as an administrator, and, and mind you, that person was a person of color that said this, it was not, you know, so I--I don't want to send the wrong, it was a person of color. That, you know, and there's a, a story that I've told, and I'll, I know it's seven (o’clock), but I, there's a story that I, I've told publicly. So I started the, it was the Celebration of Culture. 'Cause we used to do it a lot. The Celebration of Culture in the beginning. And so it was, I think an acknowledgement and recognition, of the work that was being done on the campuses. And I was--we had a first Amendment issue that happened when I was an administrator. And we had a controversial speaker that was on campus that was very discriminatory. And we called a meeting and we had a conversation. And in this meeting were a whole bunch of administrators. And someone was giving examples and they said, well, Dilcie, if you--someone called you the N word--and used the word--we wouldn't, you know, this is what would happen or whatever. And then they went to, if someone called you a whore. And then they went to me. And I didn't realize how upset I was getting in this meeting. And the person that was sitting next to me put their hand on my lap and stop me, just help stop me from shaking. And they said, “Can we stop using Dilcie as the example?” And the person said, “I didn't know if Dilcie was Black. I thought she was a hot-headed Puerto Rican.” And mind you, I was an administrator on the campus. Administrator on campus. And finally someone had enough sense to say, “We need to end this meeting.” So we all went our separate ways. And the next morning went in the meeting and I just, I just, I, I was so upset . So, so, so upset. And so they said, you know, we're gonna have this person, you know, apologize, whatever. And so the person came and gave me a half-baked apology. And so a year, a couple years went by. And they came and asked me to do the keynote for, it was, it must have been Celebration of Culture or something at the time. I can't remember. And I decided that one, I would never share who the person was 'cause that wasn't important, but that we were gonna tell the story. And so publicly, in front of 250 people, Executive Council, we did a split screen. And so the person who served as my ally in that moment, and me had a screen between us and we told the story of what happened that day. And with the point of, you never know when you're gonna need an ally. And you never know, even as an administrator, if it can happen to an administrator, it can happen to a student. And so, (CSU) San Marcos, we say that we're inclusive and that we value these things? We need to, we need to be serious about it. Right? And so at the end of the speech, the room did not move, Jennifer. It was silent. And I thought, oh no, I've lost my job. Like I, it is not good. And all of a sudden it broke out into applause and the room stood up and everybody was so happy. And I received so much support, quite honestly, for that. And the president called me, she said, “Is there anything I need to do?” And I was like, “No.” Like, “I just needed you to hear, there's nothing, thank you. Nothing.” And so a few years later they said, “Dilcie, we're gonna have to put you on a team with this person.” And I was like, “No buddy, no, you're not.” And they said, “Yeah, like, we have no choice.” And I said, “Let them say one dumb thing. I'm telling you I'm not putting up with it. I'm not mess--like one dumb thing.” And this person, and I served on this team together for about a year and a half, two years. And about after a year of us working together, we were sitting in my office on a, working on a tough case. And they said, “I just want to truly, truly apologize for what happened. I'm sorry. I was ignorant. I didn't know any better. I know better now. I'm very sorry.” To that point, that individual and I are exceptionally close to this day. I have been to their home, have been to events at their house. He knows not to say those dumb things anymore. But he, there is, there is--there is restoration in some of those things. There is forgiveness, there is learning, there is growth. Does that make sense? And so I share that very long story to say that when I think about (CSU) San Marcos is at the core of, no matter what happens at the Cross-Cultural Center, at the identity based cen--it's relation, it is about relationships. When students were picketing over, some things happened at the campus. The president had the reports to the community. And I went out and I was on the picket line with the students. And someone got back to me that someone said, “I don't like Dilcie. 'Cause she's out there picketing with the students.” No, I wasn't, I was making sure the students had their right to use their voice and that it didn't impact the event, but they had a right to be there. And so let's do that in a way that's supportive of them. Right? When the abortion people came, they may still come with the big signs. (Perez holds hands up over her head) We sat down and had a team and said, “Here's the deal. You're gonna have protestors. Let's manage it accordingly.” I remember putting blue tape right down the middle and said, “Here's the space (laughs), and here's your space. Have at it be respectful.” Be--and I walked down and supported both sides as they did those things. Because I think to me while -- and I think a lot of people on the campus believe this -- while we want to be protected from hateful language, the reality of this is the world that we live in. And what we have to do is create a space where all voices can be heard. Ho: Uh-huh. Perez: And you have a right to safety. You absolutely do, but you don't have a right to be unoffended. Because I will tell you that in the first days of (CSU) San Marcos, there were all kinds of speakers that came that I didn't necessarily agree with. But what I loved is being exposed to ideas that were different than mine that helped to validate. Or invalidate my thought process that made me think about what I believed and didn't believe. That to me is the essence of higher education. That's where I think a Cross-Cultural Center, it's not that you say everything that's popular or bring one side and one belief. You have to be balanced. Ho: Thank you so much for sharing those stories and those memories. They really provide context to what the campus was. And a lot of it is behind the scenes that people wouldn't know, wouldn't expect. Especially students going about their day to day. So thank you for doing that. (both talking) Perez: That's right. There is, I mean, I think they can't, that (CSU) San Marcos is not a perfect place. But what I will say to you is I have, I have the opportunity to view all twenty-three (CSU campuses) now, and I’m oh so appreciative of the DEIJ, the Cross-Cultural Center, the work that's happening at San Marcos in this area. Yeah. Ho: You've mentioned some names of people that you've worked with, people you appreciate, are there, who are some more people that were really important to the Cross-Cultural Center that we might not know about? Perez: I--if you haven't talked to Jonathan Pollard, I think you should find him. He was the Dean of Students at the time who, who really said we're gonna make this happen. And he was part of that with Bridget (Blanshan) that did the 2010. And I think he had the original vision for it. So I would, I think he is part of that. I think, you're gonna ask me and I--Janet Perez-Covacevich, I have to think she was the first student assistant in that space. Ho: Hey, I was gonna ask you about your, that student assistant. Perez: Janet Perez. First, and let me give you her number 'cause I know it by heart from even back then. Ho: Okay. Let's do that via email. Okay. And not on this recording. Yeah. (both talking) Perez: Sure. So I can share that with you. And then Sida Munoz, I, she was in the center. She works at (CSU) San Marcos now. She was in the center in the very beginning a lot. I think sleeping and having space, but she partnered and volunteered a lot. We also added the Cross-Cultural Center and Multicultural Programs did the very first alternative spring break for the campus. So that was part of the work that we did that first year where we took students to San Francisco to the Glide to do work in the community. So that's a little tangential, that was more from the Multicultural programs. But it, all of that was flowing out of that space for sure. Ho: Thank you. Perez: You probably have most everybody else 'cause you have all the directors and everyone that worked there, right? Ho: Yeah. Floyd's reached out to--Floyd reached out to a lot of people. So we have-- Perez: Yeah-- (both talking) Ho: --A lot of folks responding. Perez: Yeah, yeah. Totally. Ho: Including himself. Yeah. (both laugh) Perez: As he, as he should, he's done a marvelous job. Very proud. (both talking) Ho: Yeah. He really has. Perez: Yeah. Ho: I--how are we doing on time? Perez: I probably could give you a few more minutes and then yeah, head out. Are you clo-- are you good or do you have more? Ho: Yeah, I really would like to know a little bit more about you mentioned this concept of the third space. Could you tell me more about that in general or, and or as it relates to CSUSM? Perez: Sure. So during, you know, as folks try and figure out what they're studying and researching, I was exposed and I came, can't even tell you how to, a concept by Homi Bhabha in The Location of Culture that talks about when an individual transitions from one culture to the next, what they do is they take the unique strengths and characteristics of each of those cultures. So take the greatness, the goodness, and then make a third space out of it. And so my work is around breaking down the organizational silos between Academic Affairs and Student Affairs, particularly with the research. But I will say to you that I think that spaces like the Cross-Cultural Center, like identity-based centers are examples of third spaces where you take the unique strengths of faculty and Academic Affairs and the unique strengths of Student Affairs, and you put 'em together. And so the spaces could be, you know could be literally or figuratively. And so for me, as you think about the center space, these are, these should be third spaces where we blend both the best of both worlds. So that's the way in which I approach the work in my daily work, quite honestly, is that students don't care about our organizational silos. They really don't. And so how can we create more seamless, holistic experiences for students? Ho: Um-hmm. Thank you. Perez: Yeah. Ho: Could you tell us what you, what you do now at-- Perez: In my current role? Ho: In your current role? Yes. (Perez laughs) Perez: So--so I left (California State University) San Marcos in 2016. I went to be the Dean of Student Life and Judicial Affairs at MiraCosta (Community College). So I was there two years. And then with my boss, who's amazing at the time, thought that I should consider being a vice president of student services. And so I left MiraCosta after two years and became the VP of Student Services and Associate Superintendent at Cerritos College. And so I was there almost four years. And then someone approached me about this job, which is, which was the Associate Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs, Equity and Belonging in the CSU. Right? So really my work now is to bring--is, well, it's hard, but. So I work with all the diversity officers in the system. So I love that, quite honestly, on the system. And so it's been helpful because I have experience doing some of that work and so helpful to highlight the wonderful and important work that they're doing. But my role changed. So I--I am almost been here a year, but I was promoted to Deputy Vice Chancellor of Academic and Student Affairs. And so that was May 1st, but I will be the acting co-executive vice chancellor for the system for all of academic and student affairs. I know it's hard to keep up with. It's we, but it's movement. And so this position will, will really work with the presidents, provosts, and vice presidents. And the funny part is that Nathan Evans, I don't know if you know that name, he is a co-deputy, but he worked with me at San Marcos. So we started our relationship there. And so people, the chancellor has seen how well we work together, and so we both were promoted to co-lead the division. Ho: That's wonderful. Well, congratulations on your, on your promotion. Perez: Thank you. It's a lot to take in. I, it's, I'm very humbled by it. But it's a, it's a big gig, so. Ho: Yeah. Perez: Yeah. Ho: Cool. I guess we could start wrapping up. Are there any memories or stories or anything that you'd like to share from your CSUSM days? Perez: No, I think I've shared a lot of wonderful memories. I mean, I think of--despite challenges, there really were some pivotal moments that framed me as personally and professionally. When you asked about it, I remember we were trying to beautify the center and Jay Franklin, I think was serving as an interim during that time. And we did a mural and I don't know if you know about the mural, but we came on a Saturday and it was a community mural. And it's so funny because the mural was hanging in the Cross-Cultural Center for years, and finally we were like, it's time to get rid of it. I was like, just let it go. And Floyd would not. And so it's hanging in the College of Humanities, Arts and Behavioral Sciences. The first Cross-Cultural (Center) mural is in that conference room. He had it moved there. And so I, I love that the campus is, I'm telling you, there were no obstacles. And I think that I will tell you that while I know that everyone is not for DEIJ work, that everyone at San Marcos is not for it, I do think that we have tried to address challenges and obstacles in a collaborative, supportive way to start. But I do think that as, as the work continues kind of the way in which we started the rah rah and the hooray, we can't remember, we can't forget, the essence of the work is really in addressing the social injustices that unfortunately have infiltrated their way onto our college campuses. That to me is the essence of the work: is we should be building students up and not tearing them down. We should be beacons of light and hope for societies that are uninterested in confronting the social injustices that have significantly, disproportionately impacted many marginalized populations. That should not be okay. That should not be okay. That if we are telling a student, we want you to come here, we need to do everything that we can to help them be successful. Ho: Thank you. Perez: Yes. Ho: That was beautifully said and I appreciate it. I also want to come back to that mural. Could you, in case nobody else in their interviews have talked about it, could you give me a little bit of info on it just so we have it for the record? Perez: Yeah. So it is interesting. The mural we knew we needed, so somebody else in another department, and I think it may have been CAMP (College Assistance Migrant Program), had brought an artist to the campus and talked to us about them doing this mural. For their, for their program. So Jay (Franklin) and I and Dick said, “We wanna do that.” So we paid to have the artists come. And it was a Saturday, and I think it was in U(niversity) Hall, outside U Hall 100. We all were there. And he takes you through this process of where you're thinking about community, thinking about what you want, and then you each had like a sliver of the panel that you did. And I can't remember if he, he must have drawn an outline, I'm guessing, if I remember correctly. And if you see it, there's so many vibrant colors, so many vibrant colors. And I actually think we need to pull it and take pictures and document even more. Floyd probably has access to 'em because I can see, I just remember when I would walk around the room and see what people put, you were like, oh! And look at you (laughs). Right? But it represented the sense of community that was involved with the creation of the space. You have to remember, Cross-Cultural Center was there before any of the other centers. Ho: Yeah. Perez: It was the first, unless maybe not, maybe, and we have to confirm, National Latino Research Center may have been around. As a research institute base. But Cross-cultural Center, before all the centers, there was a Cross-Cultural Center that set the foundation for those to come. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: So I would say to you that when you look at it, you'll see just the, the diversity, the tapestry of our community at the time. There's so many things in that mural. So you should go see it. So many things in that mural. Ho: Okay, thank you. (both talking) Perez: I haven't seen it in a few years, but definitely check the mural. 'Cause that we did that probably, maybe I came back in 2006, so maybe 2007, 2008. So that was about four years after we opened. So we're celebrating twenty years (of the CCC being open), right? I'm trying to think, is coming up. So we're, I came to the fifteen, I think he's (Floyd Lai) getting to twenty, so it's, so March, they should count March as kind of the opening, I'm guessing. Ho: Yeah, I think it is March. Perez: It was 2004. He's right, it was March 2004 when I started it. Yeah. Ho: Okay. Perez: So I think that that, that, that mural was really a great you know, I'm, I saw Chanel Bradley and um Gerardo Cabral, he, I'm sure some of the other folks, they're on Facebook and saw them. Diana Sal--Saldivar. I mean these were like the OGs of, and you know what I will tell you is I think that then for a while, students came and went like they were good and pivotal, right? But it was different when you were in the beginning. But I see Floyd recently 'cause I'm still on Facebook with some, and it's like, looks like they have a strong sense of community amongst the, the peer educators. And Floyd brought the interns. And so that has made the difference too especially with resources. I do remember as a director advocating for that space though. You know, I'm pretty proud of how we set that space up. There, there was a lot of political navigation in that and took, you know, a lot of collateral and 'cause you know, there people were vying for space, right? But we had a reputation. And in the negotiations, you see we did pretty good. We gave up some of the physical space on the inside to get the patio on the outside (laughs) like when you think there was a lot of strategy in, in the space and how we navigated those pieces. You gotta remember too – now you're bringing up all these memories for me – the, the Multicultural Programs was started with a lottery grant. Lottery. Ho: (unclear) mean? Perez: So lottery funds, we had to apply for lottery funds. And they were only supposed to be for like two to three years to get you started. So we had to write a lottery application to get it started, to get, to have funding, to have any programming money. Ho: Oh my goodness. I did not know that. Perez: And then I started making some interesting deals across campus to get other funds. Some we probably don't wanna record, but it got access to, to some, you know. And then, oh, and then before I left, I--oh, I forgot about this! So do you, do they still have co-curricular funds? The pro-- you can apply for co-curricular funds? Ho: I think so. Perez: I worked that deal. And so I had told Bridget (Blanshan), I was like, “We need to stop everybody from going all over getting funds. We need to get the funds.” And so by the time I came back, they had co-- Bridget had co-curricular funds. And so we had this process for co-curricular funds. And then Tukwut Life. This is outside. So in Tukwut Life, this, I did a deal with the president's office on Tukwut Life. 'Cause The president's husband came to me and said, “You need to start some campus traditions.” And so Tukwut Life was part of that. Ho: How did you, did you create Tukwut Life? Was that an original-- Perez: With a whole bunch of people. We sure did. Absolutely. Tukwut Life. (both talking) Ho: That's awesome. Perez: We sure did. And I think it's died down a little bit since then, but oh, it was a whole movement. Oh. Ho: What was it? What was Tukwut Life? Perez: It was Friday night and weekend programming so that to make sure that we had night and weekend programs for students because we were increasing the number of residents and we didn't have a lot of community at the time, right? And so we knew we needed some community. Athletics was coming on board in a greater way than it was. And so, and so this is all, this is tangential to the Cross-Cultural Center. I don't know who I thought I was. I really don't. I think I just didn't ask permission. And we were just a different campus then. I don't know. I was telling someone the other day, I--I'm sure we had policies and procedures. I know we did. But I literally, one day when I was trying to create tradition on, you know, Tukwut Courtyard--I, you know, those stickers on the window, I was the first one to put all those stickers on the window. You know how it has the, oh. And then I plastered the stairs with, with CSU Gear. I had a professional company come out. I don't know who I asked. Like I was trying to think like, “Did you ask anyone? Like who told you you could do?” No, I was gonna create Tukwut Courtyard as a spirit courtyard. I, we held a pep rally there. But literally I had stairs and, you know, we used to get, I get real happiness, students would come take pictures at commencement time with their family around those, those pictures, yeah. Ho: Um-Hm. Perez: And, but then I couldn't put the stickers up anymore 'cause the concrete's old. So then we had to get rid of them, so we couldn't do that anymore. So then I had to go think about something else. Um-hmm. I don't know who I thought I was. I just need you to know. I like, now everything's so bureaucratic, right? No. We just did stuff, we did what we needed to do. Ho: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you just have to not think about it and just do it. Perez: And I, the campus was gracious to me. I also wasn't doing dumb stuff. Right. I was doing things that, but I don't know where I—all of a sudden woke up one day and I was like, I couldn't, I'm hiring a company, put some stickers on some stairs. Ho: Yeah. (inaudible) Perez: But I think that with the Cross-Cultural Center, why it worked, is that I didn't have to always ask permission. I did--I knew what I was advocating for and the campus was gracious enough to entertain that. And I think I had enough credibility at that point that they trusted me. Ho: Yeah. I think so. Perez: I don't think everything's perfect. I probably could have documented stuff better. Literally like when I look at what Alexis did and you, I was like, I was, I was just doing the rah rah fun part. Getting it started. The sustaining it is the hard part, right? So I know what I've learned about myself as a professional. I'm great at starting things like I can get a vision going. Like Cross-Cultural Center that changed and redefined--I would not be here today had it not been for the work in Multicultural Programs (inaudible). I would not, it changed--that one decision to join that team changed the trajectory of my life and my career. Ho: That's really cool. Perez: I'm, I'm pretty grateful. Pretty, I am proud of the Cross-Culture Center. I'm proud of the way Floyd (Lai) has led it. I'm proud and I'm not trying to be funny. I'm proud it has stayed controversy free (laughs). I think it has done important work in really kind, meaningful relational ways. Floyd's out there doing DEIJ work, he just does it differently than someone that's out there yelling and screaming. His work that he's doing in that center, you look at what that center has done – as you are (laughs) – for the campus. He, he has that--each of the directors, I think has added and put their nuance and their flair on that center. And I'm internally grateful that 20 years later I am proud to be connected and associated with such great work. Ho: It really does feel like a center of, of love and acceptance. It's really a beautiful, a really beautiful place. And you can, you can see that from anybody that you, you talk to. They all love the Cross-Cultural Center. Perez: It is. And it really is. And he has just furthered that vision. Like we started with that. But the population, like you have to think, we only had, I don't know when I left, I don't even know, maybe 7,000 students at that, at the time when I left, you know, once. And then came back and we grew like in, you know, seven years to 15,000. That's, that center has stayed tried and true. Tried and true. So what that tells me is I, yeah, we set a great foundation but the folks that came thereafter have really done a magnificent job and created a legacy for that case. Sara Sheik, I think about what she added, you know, that's where the Social Justice Summit was started. We were all there. I don't know if they told you. We were sitting there and we felt like people were too much in their heads. Oh, they were just, they, it was outside of them. Outside of them. And we were like, no, no, no. I remember sitting on the swing there and we were like, we gotta do something. So then we created the exercise madder than Hell. Mad as Hell. And we wanted to get them to their hearts. And we did that exercise Mad as Hell. Scott Gross. Scott Gross and I started, Sara Sheikh came in, we created that Mad as Hell exercise. They're probably still not doing it 'cause it seemed like we had controversy at every Social Justice Summit. But we were doing that work with students. And honestly, I went through a training not too long ago and they were doing equity work and I was like, “Uh, we were doing this with students, like first-year students in 2005. And you're literally taking people through this right now? This is outdated work. What are talking about?” Then I think about the students at San Marcos? They were getting that in their first year. You tell me how much different and how transformative that would be for them coming out their senior year. Ho: Yeah. Perez: I'm inspired and moved. Ho: That's great. That's so awesome. Perez: You just made me excited about the Cross-Cultural Center even more. Ho: Wait, say that again? Perez: I said, “You just made me so excited about the Cross-Cultural Center.” Ho: I, I'm really happy and I feel like I'm supposed to wrap up this interview, but I'm afraid that you'll think of more great memories to share and things to say. I don't wanna cut us off. Perez: Yeah. Well here's the thing. I will let you know if some things come up that I think are important, I'll reach out to you and let you know. 'Cause I--I'm, I am so grateful that you all are doing this. I think it is a really critical part of San Marcos and its history. Not just as a center, but in DEIJ work. For sure. Ho: Absolutely. Yeah. And the stories from people who were there, who started these movements and experienced them and made them happen are really important. 'Cause they're not always documented on paper. Perez: Yeah. I didn't do that very well. And I'm sure others, (Ho laughs) we were, we were hustling. We were hustling for sure. Right. So, but we did it. Ho: That's great. Yeah. And we have the proof of it now, celebrating the anniversary coming up. Perez: That’s exciting. I'm excited for you. So, well, it's nice to meet you. I hope that we, I just did an official visit there a few months ago, but hope we have the chance to meet in person. Ho: I hope so too! Thank you Dr. Perez. I will go ahead and end the interview now. Perez: Wonderful. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PerezDilcie_HoJennifer_2023-05-30.xml PerezDilcie_HoJennifer_2023-05-30.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Perez, Dilcie. Interview May 30, 2023. Description An account of the resource Dr. Dilcie Perez is Deputy Vice Chancellor, Academic and Student Affairs for the CSU, as well as a California State University San Marcos (CSUSM) alumna. She graduated with her degree in Bachelors of Arts in Political Science. In this interview, Perez explains how CSUSM was ahead of its time in regards to DEI (diversity, equity and inclusion) work; however at the beginning of her employment with CSUSM, the university did not have Multicultural Programs (the predecessor to the Cross-Cultural Center). Perez recalls her work with Multicultural Programs, including her being offered the opportunity to open the program upon tendering her resignation to the university. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-43 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University. Multicultural Programs California State University San Marcos. Student Academic Services Outreach Program California State University San Marcos. Student Affirmative Action Education, Higher Human rights Mural painting and decoration Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-05-30 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dilcie Perez Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Dilcie Perez Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e4b63f52f64e75d6b2babf4b5ae15f82.pdf ba62a9bcaeab7b7107074cfb0e2ab846 PDF Text Text Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Jennifer Ho: Okay. Today is May 30th, 2023. My name is Jennifer Ho, and I am interviewing Dr. Dilcie Perez for the CSUSM (California State University San Marcos) Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) Oral History Project. Thank you so much for being with me today, Dr. Perez. How are you? Dilcie Perez: Thank you so much. I appreciate the opportunity. Ho: Great. Okay, so I just wanted to start with a little bit about you personally. Can you tell me where you're from? Perez: No (both laugh). So I grew up in a military family, so I had the wonderful opportunity to live in places like Arizona and Maine and California, and Okinawa and traveled around and graduated high school in Okinawa, Japan. And moved to California as--in the nineties, early nineties. And had started, when I graduated high school in Japan, I wasn't sure where I wanted to go to college. And so I kind of took a lot of classes at community colleges. And when I moved to California someone said to me, “Have you ever heard of a place called Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos?” And at that time, I had not. And so they said, “Oh, they have programs at the time for juniors and seniors, and so you should check them out.” And so I applied to go to school at San Marcos and was accepted. And so I can talk about that later, obviously. But I, my, I come from a family of--I have my parents and I have two brothers, and I am the only girl and the youngest. However, I was also adopted, and so found my biological family later in life. And so in that family, I am the oldest of three girls. And so, have a wonderfully blended family. My education, I graduated from Cal State San Marcos in (19)94-ish. And I say that because I had the wonderful opportunity to speak at commencement in (19)94 as the speaker, one of the student speakers. And, and I think my speech might, I don't know if it's in the archives, but there's gotta be some video or something of all the, the different commencements. But moved immediately after that to North Carolina and had two classes to finish. And so I was also pregnant at the time, and so it took me about a year to get those two classes done. So I walked in (19)94, but my, my diploma says (19)95. And came back to San Marcos and then went and got my master's at Central Michigan. So they have--they had a military on-base education. And so they would fly out the instructors from Central Michigan to do an executive master's program. And this is back in the early 2000s. So this was years ago. And then I waited thirteen years to go back and get my doctorate from San Diego State in educational leadership with the emphasis in community college. Ho: Thank you. Can I ask you what brought you out to California in the first place? Perez: Yeah, the military. So I met my ex-husband in Okinawa, and then we moved to North Carolina, and then he received orders to Camp Pendleton. And so we lived in Oceanside actually at that time, and then I went to school. Ho: Okay. Okay. That's great. What were your impressions of--of California, of San Diego, of Oceanside when you, when you arrived for the first time? Perez: Yeah, I don't think that I had anything particularly of California. Because I traveled the world. And so it was another place. I remember living in--off of Mission Avenue and just appreciating being close to the beach and the weather. And but I will tell you this, that I came, so when this was (19)91-ish. And when someone referenced, like to go to Cal State San Marcos, and I say this, I tell the story all the time: Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 1 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 that when I applied to Cal State San Marcos, got accepted, I went to orientation. And orientation at that time in 1992 was at Cal State Jerome's. So you've probably heard the stories across the street. Ho: Yep. Perez: And I can see it. One, I will tell you, I still have my 1992 orientation binder that I received when I came. Still. So I've traveled and moved. But I recently was, you know, consolidating. I was like, “No, I'm keeping this, like this is good, important stuff in 1992.” And I will tell you that what is pivotal for me of having been in a military family traveling the world, that I remember walking out of orientation feeling like it was a place that I belonged because of the message of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And, you know, in (19)92, we didn't always use those words. Ho: Right. Perez: But, but diversity was a value for the campus from the start. And I remember people, someone at orientation saying, “We don't want to be a melting pot. That's old, outdated language.” And this was in (19)92, right? “Because a melting pot blends everyone together, and you can't tell the difference. We wanna be a salad bowl and we want everyone to have a unique.” And so that resonated with me that I felt like I found a place, even at my orientation in 1992 at Cal State San Marcos. Ho: Wow, that's, that's amazing. That's really great to hear. So is that--just to fast forward a little bit, is that what brought you back to CSUSM? Perez: That's interesting. So literally when I worked in as a student, I worked in what was at the time Student Affirmative Action. So they called it SAA. Someone by the name of Denise Hollis became a mentor. I think Eric Cardoso or folks in Student Affirmative Action (Program). And this was obviously before Prop 209. That then started to abolish offices such as that, right? And so when I worked in those areas and SASOP (Student Academic Services Outreach Program) and stuff, I was a student going out and doing motivational outreach. So we would do programs in schools, and I was going out doing that, and I had such a powerful experience as a student. And I moved to North Carolina right after I graduated for a year and a half, two years. And when I came back, I was at a party, like a barbecue, I can't remember. And someone said to me, “Hey, you know I got a new job.” It was somebody that I worked for. She said, “I got a new job.” And I was like, “Ah, I want your job.” Like, “I want your job.” And she just started laughing. She was like, “Ha.” I was like, “No, no, no, no, no, no. I really want your job.” Like, “What do I need to do?” And her assignment was temporary. And so this was--so really why I came back to work was because there was a temporary opportunity. It was an Assistant Outreach Coordinator in Student Academic Services Outreach Program. And so I started back at the campus that I love so much, and really in official capacity doing what I had done as a student. Ho: That's wonderful. And was that after you got your, your doctorate from SDSU? Perez: No. So this is all in 1998, (19)90. So I graduated in (19)95. I was in Fayetteville, North Carolina. And then I came back, I think in (19)97 and worked for GEICO, did temp work. I was like, “What's my life's purpose? Where am I headed? What am I doing?” And then I met her at this party or saw her again Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 2 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 at this party. And then the rest is history about (CSU) San Marcos, because I left, there's a lot to the story. But I left, but stayed for a long time and really had a great professional experience. Ho: That's wonderful. Do you remember the name of the person from the party? Perez: Oh, Mary Wardell. Um-hmm. Ho: Mary Wardell. Perez: Yeah. She was, she worked in Student Affirmative Action, and she moved and went to the Dean of Students' Office, was an Assistant Dean of Students. And that's when I saw her. 'Cause she had just received that pro-- promotion. Now she works at--she moved to, I think, University of the Pacific, but she does DEI work, she’s done written books and done amazing things in this area. Yeah. Ho: Thank you. Perez: Yeah. Ho: So now backtracking again. I wanna hear about your time as a student, because obviously it had a profound impact on you. So, so did it meet--did being a student meet your expectations after that orientation? And can you tell me about some experiences on campus and the people that you met and some pivotal moments? Perez: Oh, I love it! So I will tell you that I (laughs)--I, I had a fun experience at (California State) San Marcos, but I wasn't your traditional student. Like, I didn't know what a Dean of Students was. I didn't know about higher education. I knew that I had gone, I didn't learn this until later. I'd gone to like six different community colleges picking up classes. I spent time at the University of North Carolina at Wilmington, picking up classes. So I was going to school constantly, but picking up classes as we traveled. And so when I got to, you know, (CSU) San Marcos, it--you have to remember the culture was so different because it was so small and the faculty and the students were so tight. And when I arrived, there were no first year students. It was only juniors and seniors. And we only had three buildings. So Science Hall, Academic Hall, and maybe well, Administration Building, Craven, which is not Craven anymore. So it was those three buildings. And I will say to you that I was married, right? And so I was working during the day, I was going to school, and I took classes. I will tell you, that's really profound. And to this point, I'm still connected to these faculty members today. Leslie Zomalt. So, you know, the (Ernest and Leslie) Zomalt Award they're very, I'm very close to them. She was my faculty member in California History and we're still close. And she gave me a B! Like a B, a B. So I was like, “Why do I like you so much? You gave me a B.” But she was so good because she would, what I loved about her--I was going through a personal, difficult personal situation during that time, and I must have missed class or something must have happened that, she called me and she said, “I realize that you're not around. I wanna check on you and see how you're doing.” And that was pivotal to me. I remember that she went to a conference and she loves to read. She still loves to--I, I'm going to her house for quilting. She got me connected to quilting. I hate quilting. I hate it. I hate it. But I love you know, I, when I came back one time, I said to her, “Will you make me a quilt?” Is what I said to her. Literally this bold. And she said, “I will not make you a quilt. I will teach you how to quilt.” And I was like, “Ah, okay.” So, but every year, for about ten to fifteen years, we have quilted at her house for a year, for at one time a year. Now, I don't Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 3 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 quilt any other time. I still hate quilting. But I love the sense of community and the mentorship and the love that goes into it, that I literally will quilt one thing within my range once a year when I go. And so I will say to you that what I think about at San Mar--and Jill Watts. So let me tell you, Jill Watts is still there. She is a historian beyond historians. And, and I talked about her in, in my commencement speech that the best African American History class I have ever taken is by a white woman. Hands down. She is brilliant. She is, you know, phenomenal. It's funny, even when I worked at (California State) San Marcos, I wouldn't see her as much, but she would just beam every time that she saw me because she knew who I was as a student. I remember that Peter Zwick, I don't know if you've heard that name. He used to be over (at) Global Affairs at the time, but was really a hard, hard political science instructor. Like people were scared of him. Hard. And I decided, 'cause I was lost, I was gonna do Poli Sci as a major. And he, I went to him, who's my faculty advisor too. He must've been. And I sat there and I said, “I'm graduating in May.” And he was like, “Dilcie, how are you graduating when you haven't hardly taken any political science classes?” I was like, “It’s a technicality. Technicality.” So I took twenty-one units, most of those political science classes, upper division in one semester. Ho: Wow! Perez: I thought I was going to die. And I think a few of them, 'cause he was a hard one, like one or two were with him. But I will tell you this, is that one, it was hard 'cause I was working and taking twenty-one units and picking up. But I will tell you that that was the best I did. That was the only semester I've ever made Dean's list (laughs) in my college career, because I knew I didn't have a lot of room to play. But I will say to you that as I think about (Cal State) San Marcos, it was pivotal to me because of the relationships, particularly with faculty that I established. Denise Hollis was administration, but we were, we used to go to a Third Word Counselor's Association. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but it was years ago, and it was doing DEI work, and they were taking us there to those events. But even during the time, so I didn't get involved in a lot of co-curricular events. I have a colleague now, that used to work at Chancellor's Office and I just had an event for her. And I was like, we went to college together at (CSU) San Marcos. She's very--Sabrina Sanders. We went to college. And I was like, I don't completely remember her, but we went to college together. Right. Because she remembers me. And I just wasn't involved in a co-curricular way. So I would tell you my co-curricular experience really was the relationships with them. But we did a play. So this is in the archives as well, but for Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow Wasn’t Enough (Is Enuf). Ho: Okay. Perez: We, we all practiced for months. I--months on weekends and nights and did this two-weekend play or maybe one weekend. And it was in like the school newspaper. Gezai (Berhane) showed it to me later, that we all did this play. It was sold out in ACD 102 sold out. It was just wonderful. That--those are the pivotal moments for me. My orientation, my relationship with faculty, my--spending time in that (production). That's what I think when I think about my (CSU) San Marcos experience that I treasure the most. Ho: That's lovely. Thank you. And what did you say the title of that play was? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 4 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: For Color Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow (Is) Enuf. So it's about seven African American women and the diversity of their life. Ho: Thank you. Perez: Yeah, it has some pretty heavy topics in it, quite honestly. And so that's what made it so impressive quite honestly. Yeah. Ho: And can you speak a bit about--about the culture on campus for you as a student? Whatever comes to mind, but in particular I'm interested in, in culture and community and, and DEI and, and different groups of students. Perez: So, that's an interesting, I am grateful for this question. I don't think that I was mindful enough to know at the time with words and language what I was experiencing. I think I felt like I mattered. That I was making relationships and making connections. And I, and I hate to--I don't always like the cliche of mattering and belonging because I think people have to unpack that and think about what that means. But I will tell you, I felt like I belonged at (CSU) San Marcos from day one. From day one. And so--but I also didn't have a lot of needs, right? So at that point in time for the two years that I was there, two or three I think it served the need that I had as a non-traditional student. When I came back in (19)97, the campus had changed because the first-year students came in (19)95. So it was not the same. We--I could tell we were going through an identity crisis, right? We were planning the 10th anniversary event when I returned, and I brought the (laughs) Charger girls. I was gonna bring them to the event. And I don't know if you know, but back in the day and you have to be careful about this, this part, but back in the day we had a librarian who was heavily involved in the campus and (laughs). Ho: Okay Perez: And there was a lot of music, it (was) like jazz, right? That works for an older population. And so it was wonderful for the campus when there was juniors and seniors and older people, but first-year students and sophomores (laughs), I don’t--jazz isn’t it all--like, we have to be more than that. And so I really was proud of myself, quite honestly. And I was like, I got the Charger girls! They're coming into this event. They literally took me to, we--I don't know if you've heard of Surge? So Surge used to be the coffee shop. Ho: Okay. Perez: That was on the corner, kind of down by--by Block C by, you know where the quad is? It was on the corner there. There's a real estate office there now. They took me down to the Surge for coffee and they said, “We don't want T&A at our event.” Like, and I said, “What? Like, the Charger girls are like, like professionals (laughs)! Like they, they're not, they're not T&A, what’re you talking about?” But they would not let me bring the Charger girls to that event. I had to cancel them. Ho: Oh my goodness. Wow. Perez: And I think that the campus was in that transition from this kind of older and more mature thing to saying we have to be more relate--like, I was trying to push us to be more relatable and it did not work that day at all (laughs). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 5 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Ho: Wow, what a conversation that must have been. Perez: Oh, it was fun. But you know, I've always, I've always liked to get into good trouble, right? Ho: Yeah. Perez: And so for me it was then how are we meeting the needs of students? Because what we, what we did for, it was supposed to be like 10th anniversary in a preview day, and it really was just, you know, the same old thing that we had been doing all of that, that time period. So-Ho: Okay. Perez: Yeah. Ho: Did--are you saying the event turned out to be kind of the same old, same old? Perez: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Ho: Okay. Okay. Perez: 10th anniversary jazz ensemble (laughs). Yeah. Ho: Okay. Okay. Perez: And people showed up, but it wasn't what you really would think of, of a traditional college experience. So we went through transitional times such as that. Ho: Okay. Well that's a good segue into the Cross-Cultural Center then. So when you were a student at that time, there was not a Cross-Cultural Center, is that correct? Perez: That's correct. Ho: Okay. So when you came back to CSUSM in a staff role what are your first memories of rumblings of a Cross-Cultural Center, of a Multicultural Center? Do you remember? Perez: None. None. So let me put the context around, and this is where it--it's a, it's an interesting story. So if I go back to (19)98, (19)97, I worked in Student Academic Services Outreach Program. So SASOP doing early outreach, motivation, academic preparation. And I would say that that team and the people were diverse. We had the Dome (food services originally operated by San Diego State University’s Aztec Shops) as a space, which was really, if I remember correctly, only the primary kind of student-centered space. There wasn't a lot, you had lunch there, right? And you ate there, everything happened in the Dome. I would say to you, we were going through as a division, a lot of work around our values and trying to clarify and integrate our values in our, in for the team. And I would say to you what was hard, I'm trying to remember. I remember that there were WASC (Western Association of Schools and Colleges) self-study and that it came back with some campus climate challenges. Ho: Uh-hmm. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 6 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: And I remember, and all my years kind of blur, right? So, but I have a time period of when, like pre--I have to explain it. But when I was in SASOP, I was heavily involved in a lot of different things. In outreach. And I remember, I think during that time, there was a noose hanging on the tree outside of Academic Hall. Not, excuse me, I'm lying to you. Outside of the Administration Building. So that fifth, fifth floor, you have Founders' Plaza, there was that--there's a tree there. Ho: Yeah. Perez: That tree had a noose. And so that caused a lot of energy. So the part that's interesting is that I was heavily involved in the community. I was working tremendously. And I think I had kind of burnt out, honestly, in outreach. So I was there five and a half, six years, and I had been thinking about, I need to change. I need to do something differently. And so I was driving to work one day, and I had talked to my ex-husband. I was like, “I think I'm, I'm done. Like, I'm tired, like I'm exhausted.” And he, he said, “(I) support you, do what you need to do.” And I had written a letter and I had it for like months and I hadn't done anything with it. And then one day I was driving to work and I can tell you exactly where I was when I was driving to work. And I said, “I'm done.” And so I came in to the office and I gave them my notice. And one thing that I will tell you is that when someone quits a job and gets another job, most people will say, “Oh, Jennifer got another job. She's moving on to better things.” Well, you get a lot of attention when you say, “I'm leaving.” And they're like, “Where are you going?” And I'm like, “Nowhere. I'm just done here.” And so folks in administration came to me and they said, “Hey, you know, we don't want you to leave. What's going on?” And one of the administrators said, “If we create an opportunity for you, will you stay?” And I was like, “Eh, I don't, I don't think so. No, no, no. I--I'm pretty tired.” And the campus threw a big going away party for me, huge. But what they had said to me is, “Leave, go ahead. Take two weeks. Don't, we're not gonna submit everything. You go think about this opportunity and let us know.” And I will tell you that it was until that last day, I think they had given me till 1:00 PM and they said, and I called at twelve fiftyfive because I wasn't going to do it. I was tired. And the opportunity that they had was the Associate Director of Multicultural Programs. And so that was the first start to the Cross-Cultural Center. So that is how, honestly, it really--and so I'll tell you that what I know now, after I got into that position was we were doing 2010 visioning at that time. And I, this was, you're talking 2002 when I, when I shifted. Two thousand two/three. And they had already, I would say Jonathan Pollard, you've probably heard that name, and Bridget Blanshan. Ho: Uh-hmm. Perez: They had done some visioning, 2010 visioning. And, and I don't know, I could, I don't, I can't dig probably for you, but they have it-Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: This document. And in it, they had said they wanted to open Multicultural Programs and hire and do a space. So what happened, I believe, is that there was me saying, “I'm outta (laughs). I'm gone.” The campus not wanting to necessarily just let me walk away. And knowing they had an opportunity for strength and growth under Bridget is when I accepted and changed and came and opened Multicultural Programs. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 7 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Ho: Wow. It's a good thing you put in that notice. Perez: Oh, who you telling (Ho laughs)? 'Cause the campus one, I'll tell you this. And if I'm being quite honest, and I, if I had tried to apply for that type of role--as an outsider to a place, I don't, I would've not received that role. I didn't have the pedigree. I didn't have, you know, sure I had some of the education, but what people used to say at the time is that you're not a traditional Student Affairs practitioner. And I actually resent that type of statement because I don't think there's a traditional student affairs person anymore. Like that's old thinking. Ho: Uh-hmm. Perez: But I would say to you that I think I wouldn't have, I, what, what I believe was happening is I had established strong relationships. People knew my quality of work, knew that I would come in and at least set the ground running. That, that that's what I did. And so, honestly, when I came in, started the position, and literally I was in a cubicle inside on the fourth floor of Craven (Hall) and really had to set the, the vision. And so I met with nineteen, twenty people and I said, “What are our needs on campus? What do we think we should be doing? What do you want Multicultural Programs to be?” And I created oh my gosh, so many programs that first year. Like I was a party of one and a student assistant. But we started, I remember, oh, I can't remember. There's, there has to be somewhere. I did a flag, it had international flags everywhere. And we did a culture of celebration, or celebration of culture. Celebration of Culture was the first event. And then in that time, we started with--I partnered with Jonathan (Pollard) to start the African American Faculty Staff Association. We did the fires. We had the (brush) fires. And so we, because part of my job was volunteerism too. They threw volunteerism and engagement in there. So I did a fire, a drive, a, a clothing drive for the for out of the center for the victims of the fire. I did Soul Food Lunch, helped start Soul Food Lunch, which is gone now, but Soul Food Lunch, I think we did over 20 programs that first year that I was there. But it was all because of what people told me they wanted and what we needed. Oh, Powwow! I did the planning of the (Tukwut) Powwow with everyone. I, oh man. I could try and go back. Like we just, it, it really, I was, it was a way in which I could engage the community and build relationships across the campus. And so that is the foundation for how I really began to, I think cement my knowledge base in DEIJ (Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Justice). Was really kind of this piecemealing and building. And so the piece that I will tell you is I, between Bridget (Blanshan) and I, I can't--we advocated for the space next door to Student Life and Leadership. And it's a square wall. It was it--that room? Hon--it is so small. Do you hear me? It is so small. But, we put a couch. I went and got a couch from (unclear) who, I don't know if you know her, she works. I went to her house and picked up a couch. We got--we built me a cubicle in there because I thought it was important to have a separation of space between any students. We did all this stuff. Oh my gosh. We were in there and they tried to come and take that space. I remember one of our academic colleagues, literally, I was sitting in the space and I turned around and she's standing there summing up the space for sure. And didn't say a word to me, and then turned around and walked out. And I remember going to Bridget and saying, “You've got to be kidding me. Right?” Like, you can't come while someone's sitting in the space trying to sum it up for, 'cause space wars were real. Ho: Um-hmm. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 8 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: And I think at that time, people didn't realize the power of a Cross-Cultural Center. And there was intentionality and, you know, we called it Multicultural Programs. And then I opened up the CrossCultural Center, and literally, as I see how you've written it, we had, do you put the dash in between Cross-Cultural Center and do we not? And later on there was the, the version of, is it C3, which we branded and branded well. And then, then people hated that brand, and then they had to move, which is fine, right? But I often, I laugh because I can't believe that the Cross-Cultural name has still stayed. And, and I'm exceptionally proud. This part, we may not wanna put too public, but that's the one center that has had no controversy (laughs) on the campus. Ho: Really (both talking)? Perez: Right? Yeah. Ho: So there was no pushback or anything when you started? Perez: Nah, Nah, none. No. Um-um. And they could have. But I think because the campus was small, I had great relationships. The way in which I did--did it in relationship. It was a community effort. People were engaged, people were support(ive). None. None. But I will say to you too that the way in which we approached DEI work was pretty soft at that time. You know, it was a very supportive nature. I wasn't tackling policy. I wasn't, you know, tackling searches and recruitments, and I was building community and that level of awareness around what we can do collectively. I think I wrote a mission in the beginning. But here's the thing: I will tell you that I was, in my humble opinion, the grassroots person, because I got it going. And gave, gave. And then I was there 18 months maybe, and then I moved to Japan. And when I came back, Alexis Motevirgin had taken it to a more formal place. And, and I was like, I think we had a mission statement back then? But Alexis, I think really formalized the mission and the work. I just, I just was the grassroots starter for all of that at the time. And then Alexis came, stayed just a few months, right? And then I, I think that I hired Augie (Augustin Garibay) and he didn't stay very long. Augie Garibay and then hired Sara, Sara Sheikh. And then she stayed for a little bit and moved on. And then Floyd (Lai), and he's the longest standing. Really, I think built a solid foundation. I was there. So this is where it gets weird. Because I was, I would say the associate director, or the first, however we wanna frame it for Cross-Cultural Center. But I was there from 2003-ish to (200)4 into (200)4, so probably eighteen months. And then I went to Japan, and I was gone a year and a half, and then I came back. So part of my work in the evolution of the Cross-Cultural Center, was when I was the Director of Student Life, and it was in my portfolio. So had the ability--so I was making--I hate, I feel awkward because it's almost like you're bragging. And so I'm trying not to brag. But we used to make lots of deals back then. So I would hustle to make deals for space, quite honestly. And so--we moved Student Life. So this was part of the plan. We moved Student Life to third floor, right? And that in the rotunda, I don't know what's the, it's Guardian Scholars, I think there're now, but it has a weird kind of diagonal room. Ho: Um-huh. Perez: So we went from the fourth floor down to the rotunda, and it was small in an awkward space, small. So we were there not too long. And then I worked a deal to switch. We put Leadership Programs down, I believe, or student org(anization)s down in the rotunda and in Commons 206 area, right across where I think Alumni Affairs is. We got a really good space and partnered with ASI (Associated Students Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 9 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Incorporated), they gave us that space to put the Cross-Cultural Center up there. And that's when the Cross-Cultural Center got its real visibility because it was in a prominent space, gorgeous space. Great. We had couches. Alexis, you might hear in stories about these beautiful red couches. So by the time I came back from Japan, these beautiful red couches were in the space. Those couches have lasted for a long time. People used those couches. I, when I got back, I actually--I tell people at the Chancellor's Office, bought a TV for the space. I wanted to buy a TV to do announcements on this, on the thing. And this isn't, you're talking about 2000. Whatever. And Bridget was so cute. She was like, “What are your student learning outcomes for them?” And I was like, “What?” So, you know, I had to, you know, write whatever. And then some things happened with staffing, and someone filed a whistleblower on me for buying the TV. Because I bought the TV. Uh-huh. And so I had to defend at the--for the Chancellor's office why I bought this TV for this Cross-Cultural Center back in the day. So it's interesting that what we consider is normal, were some things that as you build the infrastructure, right? And, you know, when you build something like this, people want it to be all things to all people. And I think that when I started, that was easy because it was just building. But as you've seen the iteration, I think each of the people who have led it have really had to think about what is the purpose of the center and the space, and how can it be most effective? Ho: So then when you were, when you were building, what was the purpose of it in your mind? Perez: Yeah. I think one, to provide space, a safe space for our students. To be a centralized resource and location. So I would say to you that in some ways I was, you know, the start of a diversity person on the campus in that realm. It was kind of a catchall at that time. I think that it, it--whether articulated or not, was to build really kind of the celebratory awareness events. And have the visibility and do that work to acknowledge the diversity of our communities on the campuses. And I--I'm having a hard time kind of remembering between the two roles, but I began to get brought into, we had an Institute for Social Justice and Equity that was created, a center. And that when I got back, we were heavily involved in. A lot of the bias response pieces because of student life I was involved in. And so I think it became a resource. And when I got back from the CSU--when I got back from Japan, I will tell you that it was then that I--we got really involved in more serious things. So some of the campus climate pieces, the WASC pieces, there was a, maybe diversity committee that was working on a diversity statement for the campus that I think we worked on that for a long time and it never got out. But what did get out of that or come out of that work on that committee was the very first Diversity Officer. And so that was Gary Rollinson, who then I think in that. Dowd, spent some time in that. And then, you know, (Willie) “Derrick” Crawford, and then now, you know, there's Arturo Ocampo and then Aswad (Allen, current Chief Diversity Officer). So, I think it was the foundational really for a lot of the diversity work that was happening on the campus. Ho: So, you mentioned when we first started this conversation, you were really a part of a lot of different communities as a kid. So military, you were adopted, which I imagine had a profound impact on your sense of identity and being. And then moving from place to place and having to integrate yourself into these different places. So, do you think that that this childhood experience of--of being maybe different in so many ways from so many different people, had any impact on, on this career that you found yourself in at CSUSM? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 10 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: Oh, I love this question. I don't know. When I was doing my doctoral work there was a pivotal, a quote that has been pivotal to my life. It says, “Everything changes, everything's connected, pay attention.” And I would say to you that while I was trying to figure out what the purpose of my life was going to be, (laughs) working at GEICO, coming to work in outreach, right? Susan Mitchell, who has since passed away, was a great mentor in telling me I was a leader without the position. Like in instilling this belief in me, I would say to you that every experience I had at (CSU) San Marcos prepared me for that role. That my work in outreach and Student Affirmative Action to the Third Word Counseling Association that I talked to you about, to the outreach to the people that I worked with and the value statements to the engagement that I had as a student. Yeah. I mean, all of that. I think you pull from those as tools, right? What I do think helped is I love the community. And I think to your point I don't think even then I understood as a student what it meant to be an African American woman. I don't know that I understood how all of my identities felt, but I did know what it meant to feel like you mattered and belonged, and how to resource and the support on the campus. That even though I'm not first gen(eration), both of my parents went to college, I know I struggled at points. Like, it wasn't until I applied to go to grad school that I realized I pulled my (CSU) San Marcos transcript, and I was like, “Really? I wasn't that bad of a student. Why did I feel like I wasn't a good student?” Like, I literally did not see myself as a good student, right? I was just doing what I needed to do to possibly get out. You know, my GPA ended up like a 3.11, but all the stuff I was doing and the movement and the, you know--but I, I would say to you that I think that sure, I pull on all of that because you want students to have a good experience. And what has happened since then with my research around a concept called Third Space, I do believe it's our role to break down any obstacles and challenges that students have to face. And I think that's the way in which I've approached the work is that sometimes it's, it's our organizational structures that are weeding students out. And that to me is probably the greatest social inequity of all. Ho: Especially on a college campus of all things. Perez: Especially on a college campus. That's supposed to, while we reflect society, we should often we should be a safe space. Ho: Hmm. Perez: I will tell you that during my time, so you're talking when I was director of SLL (Student Life and Leadership), then the Associate Dean, then Dean of Students, right? So all these are kind of merged, but once the Cross-Cultural Center opened, I had the opportunity to partner with John Segoria and Vicki Hernandez to open the Veterans Center. Then the president pulled on a team of us after a list of demands. And I just, I had the opportunity a few years ago to participate in the Latino Resource Center and helping them get started. And that came out of crisis. And so we created that. That I--I was gonna tell you some piece about that, but oh, that Floyd had invited me back, I think, for the 15th year. Or whatever. And when we were opening the Latino Resource Center, some folks thought that as we were having that, I would, I would raise questions. And I said, “If we, if we open a Latino Resource Center (Latin@/X Center), are we ready to open a center for all identities?” Because that's what's gonna happen. And I'm, and, and people thought I was against it, and I was like, “No, no, no, no, no, no.” Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 11 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Because if you look, we had started the Cross-Cultural Center because we understood that the intersectionality of all of our identities. And so we were trying to build the model originally off of the value of the intersectionality. Right? And then as life happens in society and on the campus, there was a need. And so the Latino Resource Center, I was like, I'm not against it. I'm just asking are we ready to open additional centers? And to the president's credit, she was, because then the Black Resource Center (Black Student Center) came, the Dreamer Center came, right? And additional centers. And so I will tell you that when he invited me to come back for the 15th year and speak, I wrote a speech that I had to think about because I was like, where am I at? Is it Cross-Cultural Center or is it all the different identity-based centers? And I will tell you, I was at MiraCosta (Community College) at the time, and I wrote in the speech, I said, until we make DEIJ training mandatory across the institution, because the reality is those that choose to come to the trainings do, but those aren't the folks who are making it a chilly spot. Not always discriminatory, but chilly, and making it difficult for students until they are mandated to go to training and they get to opt out. Oh, we best believe we need centers. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: To get rid of all of the isms, to get rid of all the things that are hindering our students. You absolutely need a safe space. And so I am for whatever identity-based center we feel like we need that can validate students, provide the academic and co-curricular support to students all day, every day. So I put that in the speech, right? That at, at the 15th (year) and tell me that the students at MiraCosta got a hold of that speech somehow, and they were trying to fight for a Latino center. And they quoted that speech and plastered it all over campus, because they also feel like if she's saying that we need that there, why wouldn't we need that here? And so, I will tell you, I've shifted my approach, actually. I think cross-cultural is important, but I, I think identity-based centers as we need them, are critically important until we're going to focus on the entire organization and hold everyone accountable to creating student support. You know, it's not, I--I really, quite honestly, you have a choice to believe what you want to believe. I'm not here to, to force people to believe. But what you can't do, or what you won't do is weed a student out because of your beliefs. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: Or cause an obstacle for a student. That, that we, we need to understand that there are societal injustices, that mirror themselves in our college campuses that we need to mitigate if we're really truly serious about doing this work. Ho: Could you elaborate a bit on--on why identity focused centers are so important and also their relationship to a, a Multicultural Center? Like what, what is, what is the difference, frankly? Perez: Well, I don't know. And I, and I would tell you, I think Floyd's been working on that, right? Because what you probably know is that we had so many discussions in the beginning because the students, it was always busy in the Cross-Cultural Center. But it was our APIDA (Asian-Pacific Islander Desi American) students that were in there and using the space. And so people were like, “Well, you have to have an APIDA center 'cause that's who's in there.” And we had so many conversations in the beginning around how do you diversify the space. Because it's not just about our APIDA students. The reality is it is any student taking territory. Claiming territory. Like what do you do to make sure the space Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 12 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 is, you know, culturally diverse? And at some point, we just gave up quite honestly, because we didn't feel like that was our right to then try and mess with the dynamics. Like create a space where people, if they choose to walk in the door, that they would feel welcome. Does that make sense? But we will not exclude anyone from the spaces like the space. That's what it is here for. And so, I will tell you that I think that I don't know, and I haven't been connected in a very long time, in an in-depth way, if we have ever clearly achieved the, the goal of the intersectionality and how a Cross-Cultural center or could really, really benefit that. I think you would, quite honestly, there's nuances between multicultural and cross-cultural, right? And I think you will play, people don't call, and they may now. Multicultural. And so Multicultural Programs died that, that term. I think I-- and Floyd had it in his title for a while, but I can't remember where that ended up. But I would say to you that I think as we think about the future, that really is the essence. That the identity-based senders, I don't, you can't silo my identity, right? So I am an African-American woman. Does that make sense? I am a military dependent family member. That is a huge, huge part of my identity. I am a woman. Gender Equity Center. I am an ally to LGBTQ. Like, so to think that a student, we can silo the identities of students? But what I will tell you is this, I find community in ways that are authentic to me. So what I love about the identity based, and it's a different idea, is I get to choose which identity I'm (unclear) in those moments. I don't have to pick them, because I do think sometimes in our work, we're back to the melting pot concept, where we're like, “Let's just be all happy and get along.” And we really don't create that space for the uniqueness of our identities to come forward. So what I love about where (CSU) San Marcos is now is honestly, yeah. They were willing to open centers for like, when I was there. There's two other centers popping up, right? You know, what I, what I think is interesting is you have the National Latino Resource Center. And you have the Latino Resource Center (Latin@/X Center), and you have the Dreamers Center. And my question is, how are all of them partnering and working together? And are we creating living learning spaces? Because I will tell you, I don't think you need separate spaces just for belonging. What we need are spaces that allow a student to live and to learn. And often the connection to academic, their academics is critically important. Does that make sense? Like, I will tell you, I do a lot of work around basic needs. This is not a popular statement that I'm about to make, but everything we do for students' basic needs should be connected to them moving forward to achieve their educational goals. Period. If we're not helping a student progress forward or persist, the reality (is) we're not a social service agency. That is not our area of expertise. What we are is, as I see Jennifer as a student, Jennifer has needs, some of them are more immediate, some are more long-term. So, Jennifer, how can I help connect you for your immediate, basic needs, to a community organization? Cal-fresh. Housing. That can help you so that I'm not, I'm, I'm helping you to fish. Not just trying to fix this need right now. Because oftentimes people will say, “Well, Jennifer can't go to school because she has so many life things.” And I'm like, yeah, but the reality is we have to balance, how do we supply the needs? So Jennifer, 'cause that's, that's social mobility for a student. That's what's gonna change a life. That's what, that's what we want. We wanna change our life through helping Jennifer get their degree. Ho: Yeah Perez: Am I preaching to you? But that's what, to me, the crux of what we're doing is, I think every campus is gonna be different, quite honestly. And I think (CSU) San Marcos has found its niche, right? I Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 13 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 think when it moved all the identity-based centers into a unit. So that they can collaborate, coordinate, partner. I think it's fabulous. Ho: So do you see do you see a trend with college campuses overall moving from multicultural centers to, to these focused, identity-based? Perez: So I've changed and morphed a little bit too. And I will tell you that it's funny. My, my vision is similar, but different. And I think that's from being at (CSU) San Marcos, but also having the identitybased spaces conversation at MiraCosta Community College, and then Cerritos College, and then now in the system. I would tell you my ideal, which is not new to me. Does that make sense? It's just the model, model that I love, is where you have this cross-- and this kind of was where we had started, but it never got there. Cross-Cultural is the hub, right? But then you would have physical spaces because symbolism matters to identities. But you would have some spaces connected. So you could have your LGBTQIA, you could have Gender Equity, you could have, you know, I'm trying to—Black--you know, all the different centers that aren't necessarily disconnected. The hub is the cross-cultural part. So (California State University) Fullerton, to my understanding, has this model where they have a coordinator for each, but they're all interconnected in their work and in the way they do this. That to me is the ideal quite honestly. I don't think having separate spaces across campuses, across whatever are the ideal. I think having them where there could be a synergy together. I think (CSU) San Marcos is close, right? Because most of them are in the (University Student) Union. They've done a really good job of trying to put everything in the Union. Some are a few out, you know, I used to serve on the California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center’s taskforce. And then, you know, I just learned they're working to do a Native Center. And I was like, but you have two, like two spaces, like two, like what's the difference? So, you know, I don't know where it starts or stops. I just think that each campus has to have its hand on the pulse of what their students need. And I think engaging faculty in these spaces matters. You know, that is one of the most critical relationships. Is I've talked about my experiences. You know, it could be a staff member. Absolutely. But your faculty relationships matter. Ho: Yeah. When you were, when you were starting out as this, as the Associate--Associate Director-(Both talking) Perez: Director-Ho: --of Multicultural Spaces, is that correct? Perez: Multicultural Programs. (Both talking) Ho: Multicultural Programs. Perez: Um-huh. Ho: Okay. Thank you. You said you spoke to different people on campus. Did that include students and faculty as well? Perez: Yeah. You know, it--my world was so blended. So the, the, the thing that's a little different at (CSU) San Marcos--so when I left San Marcos in 2016, I would tell you and I give all credit, Lorena, Mesa, Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 14 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 and Checka at the time, they threw a phenomenal party. I would tell you mostly faculty were there, right? So the way in which I navigated the campus was really fluid between Student Affairs and Academic Affairs. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: Yes. I mean, I would tell you, like, can I remember? I--I think I met with Gary Rollinson. I think I remember meeting with advisors. I think students, I don't have the list, obviously. It was 19 years ago. Which is crazy. But yeah, I mean, I think we, we just were more fluid between the organization back then that, yeah, I remember meeting with as many people that would meet with me. Ho: That's great. And did that include students as well? Perez: Yes. But I can't tell you the exact names of the students. Yes. Ho: Oh, that's okay. That's fine. One of my questions on my list here is what did the students say that they wanted? Perez: Yeah. Yeah. I think what's hard for me is what a student would say today and what a student would say in 2004 are very different things. So I think we're, we are more knowledgeable about DEIJ language. And about--I hate to say it this way, but the hatred, the discrimination, the oppression that's in the world. And I think that at the point when we started our work around DEI was still kind of in the--I I hate to say it, in the happy phase. So you know how I said the Latino Center--resource center was built out of crisis, right? And the Black Resource Center, I think a crisis. Veterans Center, not so much. I think it was us being strategic and the community. But the Cross-Cultural Center wasn't built out of a crisis. It was built out of an opportunity to strengthen the student experience and to create a resource for students. So I would say to you that I think students at that point were wanting a sense of community. Does that make sense? Wanting a pla-- a space. So space, which we gave. They wanted the celebratory aspects. Like we talked about the Powwow, and I don't know if the powwow has come back to San Marcos. It was huge, the Powwow, huge, huge! It took months to plan those things. So I went in as the University Liaison to the groups to help them plan that. Gala GATSA for the Oaxacan community. I was on the Gala GATSA community. I remember sitting in the back and, and I think this is me and CrossCultural Center, literally (laughs). I had never been to a Gala GATSA before. It was five thousand people! Do you hear me? Five thousand. We, this was, these were huge community events. I was sitting in the back next to and Humberto Garcia, (Jr.). I don't know if he's still there in risk managing--manager. Girl, they threw whole pineapples and cantaloupes through the audience. I'm literally standing there and I was like, is that, is that a whole pineapple? That's a tradition in the, like, in that, you know. But so for us, I think it was more of just really being there to support students. It wasn't until I became a dean, quite honestly, and I got into to the associate director (position) that I started tackling some of those more difficult, sensitive--it was probably director on that, that I was in those conversations that were tackling some of the discrimination that was happening on campuses. You know, there were many conversations where faculty members were saying and doing things that they shouldn't be saying or doing that I as a dean or you know, would say, you can't, that's, you can't do that (laughs). Like, no. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 15 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 We had a faculty member that were, they were very upset about students and their perception of, and they tried to kick students out of the class. And you know, I went in and the faculty member literally when I went in and said, “What the f are you doing here?” And I was like, “You have a right to an advocate and so do students. And so I'm here as a student advocate.” And so we had the conversation and that faculty member said, “You're wasting my effing time.” And just so you're, you're taught if I'm dealing with this! If, if I'm dealing with this as an administrator, and, and mind you, that person was a person of color that said this, it was not, you know, so I--I don't want to send the wrong, it was a person of color. That, you know, and there's a, a story that I've told, and I'll, I know it's seven (o’clock), but I, there's a story that I, I've told publicly. So I started the, it was the Celebration of Culture. 'Cause we used to do it a lot. The Celebration of Culture in the beginning. And so it was, I think an acknowledgement and recognition, of the work that was being done on the campuses. And I was--we had a first Amendment issue that happened when I was an administrator. And we had a controversial speaker that was on campus that was very discriminatory. And we called a meeting and we had a conversation. And in this meeting were a whole bunch of administrators. And someone was giving examples and they said, well, Dilcie, if you--someone called you the N word--and used the word--we wouldn't, you know, this is what would happen or whatever. And then they went to, if someone called you a whore. And then they went to me. And I didn't realize how upset I was getting in this meeting. And the person that was sitting next to me put their hand on my lap and stop me, just help stop me from shaking. And they said, “Can we stop using Dilcie as the example?” And the person said, “I didn't know if Dilcie was Black. I thought she was a hot-headed Puerto Rican.” And mind you, I was an administrator on the campus. Administrator on campus. And finally someone had enough sense to say, “We need to end this meeting.” So we all went our separate ways. And the next morning went in the meeting and I just, I just, I, I was so upset. So, so, so upset. And so they said, you know, we're gonna have this person, you know, apologize, whatever. And so the person came and gave me a half-baked apology. And so a year, a couple years went by. And they came and asked me to do the keynote for, it was, it must have been Celebration of Culture or something at the time. I can't remember. And I decided that one, I would never share who the person was 'cause that wasn't important, but that we were gonna tell the story. And so publicly, in front of 250 people, Executive Council, we did a split screen. And so the person who served as my ally in that moment, and me had a screen between us and we told the story of what happened that day. And with the point of, you never know when you're gonna need an ally. And you never know, even as an administrator, if it can happen to an administrator, it can happen to a student. And so, (CSU) San Marcos, we say that we're inclusive and that we value these things? We need to, we need to be serious about it. Right? And so at the end of the speech, the room did not move, Jennifer. It was silent. And I thought, oh no, I've lost my job. Like I, it is not good. And all of a sudden it broke out into applause and the room stood up and everybody was so happy. And I received so much support, quite honestly, for that. And the president called me, she said, “Is there anything I need to do?” And I was like, “No.” Like, “I just needed you to hear, there's nothing, thank you. Nothing.” And so a few years later they said, “Dilcie, we're gonna have to put you on a team with this person.” And I was like, “No buddy, no, you're not.” And they said, “Yeah, like, we have no choice.” And I said, “Let them say one dumb thing. I'm telling you I'm not putting up with it. I'm not mess--like one dumb thing.” And this person, and I served on this team together for about a year and a half, two Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 16 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 years. And about after a year of us working together, we were sitting in my office on a, working on a tough case. And they said, “I just want to truly, truly apologize for what happened. I'm sorry. I was ignorant. I didn't know any better. I know better now. I'm very sorry.” To that point, that individual and I are exceptionally close to this day. I have been to their home, have been to events at their house. He knows not to say those dumb things anymore. But he, there is, there is--there is restoration in some of those things. There is forgiveness, there is learning, there is growth. Does that make sense? And so I share that very long story to say that when I think about (CSU) San Marcos is at the core of, no matter what happens at the Cross-Cultural Center, at the identity based cen-it's relation, it is about relationships. When students were picketing over, some things happened at the campus. The president had the reports to the community. And I went out and I was on the picket line with the students. And someone got back to me that someone said, “I don't like Dilcie. 'Cause she's out there picketing with the students.” No, I wasn't, I was making sure the students had their right to use their voice and that it didn't impact the event, but they had a right to be there. And so let's do that in a way that's supportive of them. Right? When the abortion people came, they may still come with the big signs. (Perez holds hands up over her head) We sat down and had a team and said, “Here's the deal. You're gonna have protestors. Let's manage it accordingly.” I remember putting blue tape right down the middle and said, “Here's the space (laughs), and here's your space. Have at it be respectful.” Be--and I walked down and supported both sides as they did those things. Because I think to me while -- and I think a lot of people on the campus believe this -- while we want to be protected from hateful language, the reality of this is the world that we live in. And what we have to do is create a space where all voices can be heard. Ho: Uh-huh. Perez: And you have a right to safety. You absolutely do, but you don't have a right to be unoffended. Because I will tell you that in the first days of (CSU) San Marcos, there were all kinds of speakers that came that I didn't necessarily agree with. But what I loved is being exposed to ideas that were different than mine that helped to validate. Or invalidate my thought process that made me think about what I believed and didn't believe. That to me is the essence of higher education. That's where I think a CrossCultural Center, it's not that you say everything that's popular or bring one side and one belief. You have to be balanced. Ho: Thank you so much for sharing those stories and those memories. They really provide context to what the campus was. And a lot of it is behind the scenes that people wouldn't know, wouldn't expect. Especially students going about their day to day. So thank you for doing that. (both talking) Perez: That's right. There is, I mean, I think they can't, that (CSU) San Marcos is not a perfect place. But what I will say to you is I have, I have the opportunity to view all twenty-three (CSU campuses) now, and I’m oh so appreciative of the DEIJ, the Cross-Cultural Center, the work that's happening at San Marcos in this area. Yeah. Ho: You've mentioned some names of people that you've worked with, people you appreciate, are there, who are some more people that were really important to the Cross-Cultural Center that we might not know about? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 17 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: I--if you haven't talked to Jonathan Pollard, I think you should find him. He was the Dean of Students at the time who, who really said we're gonna make this happen. And he was part of that with Bridget (Blanshan) that did the 2010. And I think he had the original vision for it. So I would, I think he is part of that. I think, you're gonna ask me and I--Janet Perez-Covacevich, I have to think she was the first student assistant in that space. Ho: Hey, I was gonna ask you about your, that student assistant. Perez: Janet Perez. First, and let me give you her number 'cause I know it by heart from even back then. Ho: Okay. Let's do that via email. Okay. And not on this recording. Yeah. (both talking) Perez: Sure. So I can share that with you. And then Sida Munoz, I, she was in the center. She works at (CSU) San Marcos now. She was in the center in the very beginning a lot. I think sleeping and having space, but she partnered and volunteered a lot. We also added the Cross-Cultural Center and Multicultural Programs did the very first alternative spring break for the campus. So that was part of the work that we did that first year where we took students to San Francisco to the Glide to do work in the community. So that's a little tangential, that was more from the Multicultural programs. But it, all of that was flowing out of that space for sure. Ho: Thank you. Perez: You probably have most everybody else 'cause you have all the directors and everyone that worked there, right? Ho: Yeah. Floyd's reached out to--Floyd reached out to a lot of people. So we have-Perez: Yeah-- (both talking) Ho: --A lot of folks responding. Perez: Yeah, yeah. Totally. Ho: Including himself. Yeah. (both laugh) Perez: As he, as he should, he's done a marvelous job. Very proud. (both talking) Ho: Yeah. He really has. Perez: Yeah. Ho: I--how are we doing on time? Perez: I probably could give you a few more minutes and then yeah, head out. Are you clo-- are you good or do you have more? Ho: Yeah, I really would like to know a little bit more about you mentioned this concept of the third space. Could you tell me more about that in general or, and or as it relates to CSUSM? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 18 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: Sure. So during, you know, as folks try and figure out what they're studying and researching, I was exposed and I came, can't even tell you how to, a concept by Homi Bhabha in The Location of Culture that talks about when an individual transitions from one culture to the next, what they do is they take the unique strengths and characteristics of each of those cultures. So take the greatness, the goodness, and then make a third space out of it. And so my work is around breaking down the organizational silos between Academic Affairs and Student Affairs, particularly with the research. But I will say to you that I think that spaces like the Cross-Cultural Center, like identity-based centers are examples of third spaces where you take the unique strengths of faculty and Academic Affairs and the unique strengths of Student Affairs, and you put 'em together. And so the spaces could be, you know could be literally or figuratively. And so for me, as you think about the center space, these are, these should be third spaces where we blend both the best of both worlds. So that's the way in which I approach the work in my daily work, quite honestly, is that students don't care about our organizational silos. They really don't. And so how can we create more seamless, holistic experiences for students? Ho: Um-hmm. Thank you. Perez: Yeah. Ho: Could you tell us what you, what you do now at-Perez: In my current role? Ho: In your current role? Yes. (Perez laughs) Perez: So--so I left (California State University) San Marcos in 2016. I went to be the Dean of Student Life and Judicial Affairs at MiraCosta (Community College). So I was there two years. And then with my boss, who's amazing at the time, thought that I should consider being a vice president of student services. And so I left MiraCosta after two years and became the VP of Student Services and Associate Superintendent at Cerritos College. And so I was there almost four years. And then someone approached me about this job, which is, which was the Associate Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs, Equity and Belonging in the CSU. Right? So really my work now is to bring--is, well, it's hard, but. So I work with all the diversity officers in the system. So I love that, quite honestly, on the system. And so it's been helpful because I have experience doing some of that work and so helpful to highlight the wonderful and important work that they're doing. But my role changed. So I--I am almost been here a year, but I was promoted to Deputy Vice Chancellor of Academic and Student Affairs. And so that was May 1st, but I will be the acting co-executive vice chancellor for the system for all of academic and student affairs. I know it's hard to keep up with. It's we, but it's movement. And so this position will, will really work with the presidents, provosts, and vice presidents. And the funny part is that Nathan Evans, I don't know if you know that name, he is a codeputy, but he worked with me at San Marcos. So we started our relationship there. And so people, the chancellor has seen how well we work together, and so we both were promoted to co-lead the division. Ho: That's wonderful. Well, congratulations on your, on your promotion. Perez: Thank you. It's a lot to take in. I, it's, I'm very humbled by it. But it's a, it's a big gig, so. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 19 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Ho: Yeah. Perez: Yeah. Ho: Cool. I guess we could start wrapping up. Are there any memories or stories or anything that you'd like to share from your CSUSM days? Perez: No, I think I've shared a lot of wonderful memories. I mean, I think of--despite challenges, there really were some pivotal moments that framed me as personally and professionally. When you asked about it, I remember we were trying to beautify the center and Jay Franklin, I think was serving as an interim during that time. And we did a mural and I don't know if you know about the mural, but we came on a Saturday and it was a community mural. And it's so funny because the mural was hanging in the Cross-Cultural Center for years, and finally we were like, it's time to get rid of it. I was like, just let it go. And Floyd would not. And so it's hanging in the College of Humanities, Arts and Behavioral Sciences. The first Cross-Cultural (Center) mural is in that conference room. He had it moved there. And so I, I love that the campus is, I'm telling you, there were no obstacles. And I think that I will tell you that while I know that everyone is not for DEIJ work, that everyone at San Marcos is not for it, I do think that we have tried to address challenges and obstacles in a collaborative, supportive way to start. But I do think that as, as the work continues kind of the way in which we started the rah rah and the hooray, we can't remember, we can't forget, the essence of the work is really in addressing the social injustices that unfortunately have infiltrated their way onto our college campuses. That to me is the essence of the work: is we should be building students up and not tearing them down. We should be beacons of light and hope for societies that are uninterested in confronting the social injustices that have significantly, disproportionately impacted many marginalized populations. That should not be okay. That should not be okay. That if we are telling a student, we want you to come here, we need to do everything that we can to help them be successful. Ho: Thank you. Perez: Yes. Ho: That was beautifully said and I appreciate it. I also want to come back to that mural. Could you, in case nobody else in their interviews have talked about it, could you give me a little bit of info on it just so we have it for the record? Perez: Yeah. So it is interesting. The mural we knew we needed, so somebody else in another department, and I think it may have been CAMP (College Assistance Migrant Program), had brought an artist to the campus and talked to us about them doing this mural. For their, for their program. So Jay (Franklin) and I and Dick said, “We wanna do that.” So we paid to have the artists come. And it was a Saturday, and I think it was in U(niversity) Hall, outside U Hall 100. We all were there. And he takes you through this process of where you're thinking about community, thinking about what you want, and then you each had like a sliver of the panel that you did. And I can't remember if he, he must have drawn an outline, I'm guessing, if I remember correctly. And if you see it, there's so many vibrant colors, so many vibrant colors. And I actually think we need to pull it and take pictures and document even more. Floyd probably has access to 'em because I can see, I just remember when I would walk around the room and see what Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 20 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 people put, you were like, oh! And look at you (laughs). Right? But it represented the sense of community that was involved with the creation of the space. You have to remember, Cross-Cultural Center was there before any of the other centers. Ho: Yeah. Perez: It was the first, unless maybe not, maybe, and we have to confirm, National Latino Research Center may have been around. As a research institute base. But Cross-cultural Center, before all the centers, there was a Cross-Cultural Center that set the foundation for those to come. Ho: Um-hmm. Perez: So I would say to you that when you look at it, you'll see just the, the diversity, the tapestry of our community at the time. There's so many things in that mural. So you should go see it. So many things in that mural. Ho: Okay, thank you. (both talking) Perez: I haven't seen it in a few years, but definitely check the mural. 'Cause that we did that probably, maybe I came back in 2006, so maybe 2007, 2008. So that was about four years after we opened. So we're celebrating twenty years (of the CCC being open), right? I'm trying to think, is coming up. So we're, I came to the fifteen, I think he's (Floyd Lai) getting to twenty, so it's, so March, they should count March as kind of the opening, I'm guessing. Ho: Yeah, I think it is March. Perez: It was 2004. He's right, it was March 2004 when I started it. Yeah. Ho: Okay. Perez: So I think that that, that, that mural was really a great you know, I'm, I saw Chanel Bradley and um Gerardo Cabral, he, I'm sure some of the other folks, they're on Facebook and saw them. Diana Sal-Saldivar. I mean these were like the OGs of, and you know what I will tell you is I think that then for a while, students came and went like they were good and pivotal, right? But it was different when you were in the beginning. But I see Floyd recently 'cause I'm still on Facebook with some, and it's like, looks like they have a strong sense of community amongst the, the peer educators. And Floyd brought the interns. And so that has made the difference too especially with resources. I do remember as a director advocating for that space though. You know, I'm pretty proud of how we set that space up. There, there was a lot of political navigation in that and took, you know, a lot of collateral and 'cause you know, there people were vying for space, right? But we had a reputation. And in the negotiations, you see we did pretty good. We gave up some of the physical space on the inside to get the patio on the outside (laughs) like when you think there was a lot of strategy in, in the space and how we navigated those pieces. You gotta remember too – now you're bringing up all these memories for me – the, the Multicultural Programs was started with a lottery grant. Lottery. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 21 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Ho: (unclear) mean? Perez: So lottery funds, we had to apply for lottery funds. And they were only supposed to be for like two to three years to get you started. So we had to write a lottery application to get it started, to get, to have funding, to have any programming money. Ho: Oh my goodness. I did not know that. Perez: And then I started making some interesting deals across campus to get other funds. Some we probably don't wanna record, but it got access to, to some, you know. And then, oh, and then before I left, I--oh, I forgot about this! So do you, do they still have co-curricular funds? The pro-- you can apply for co-curricular funds? Ho: I think so. Perez: I worked that deal. And so I had told Bridget (Blanshan), I was like, “We need to stop everybody from going all over getting funds. We need to get the funds.” And so by the time I came back, they had co-- Bridget had co-curricular funds. And so we had this process for co-curricular funds. And then Tukwut Life. This is outside. So in Tukwut Life, this, I did a deal with the president's office on Tukwut Life. 'Cause The president's husband came to me and said, “You need to start some campus traditions.” And so Tukwut Life was part of that. Ho: How did you, did you create Tukwut Life? Was that an original-Perez: With a whole bunch of people. We sure did. Absolutely. Tukwut Life. (both talking) Ho: That's awesome. Perez: We sure did. And I think it's died down a little bit since then, but oh, it was a whole movement. Oh. Ho: What was it? What was Tukwut Life? Perez: It was Friday night and weekend programming so that to make sure that we had night and weekend programs for students because we were increasing the number of residents and we didn't have a lot of community at the time, right? And so we knew we needed some community. Athletics was coming on board in a greater way than it was. And so, and so this is all, this is tangential to the CrossCultural Center. I don't know who I thought I was. I really don't. I think I just didn't ask permission. And we were just a different campus then. I don't know. I was telling someone the other day, I--I'm sure we had policies and procedures. I know we did. But I literally, one day when I was trying to create tradition on, you know, Tukwut Courtyard--I, you know, those stickers on the window, I was the first one to put all those stickers on the window. You know how it has the, oh. And then I plastered the stairs with, with CSU Gear. I had a professional company come out. I don't know who I asked. Like I was trying to think like, “Did you ask anyone? Like who told you you could do?” No, I was gonna create Tukwut Courtyard as a spirit courtyard. I, we held a Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 22 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 pep rally there. But literally I had stairs and, you know, we used to get, I get real happiness, students would come take pictures at commencement time with their family around those, those pictures, yeah. Ho: Um-Hm. Perez: And, but then I couldn't put the stickers up anymore 'cause the concrete's old. So then we had to get rid of them, so we couldn't do that anymore. So then I had to go think about something else. Umhmm. I don't know who I thought I was. I just need you to know. I like, now everything's so bureaucratic, right? No. We just did stuff, we did what we needed to do. Ho: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you just have to not think about it and just do it. Perez: And I, the campus was gracious to me. I also wasn't doing dumb stuff. Right. I was doing things that, but I don't know where I—all of a sudden woke up one day and I was like, I couldn't, I'm hiring a company, put some stickers on some stairs. Ho: Yeah. (inaudible) Perez: But I think that with the Cross-Cultural Center, why it worked, is that I didn't have to always ask permission. I did--I knew what I was advocating for and the campus was gracious enough to entertain that. And I think I had enough credibility at that point that they trusted me. Ho: Yeah. I think so. Perez: I don't think everything's perfect. I probably could have documented stuff better. Literally like when I look at what Alexis did and you, I was like, I was, I was just doing the rah rah fun part. Getting it started. The sustaining it is the hard part, right? So I know what I've learned about myself as a professional. I'm great at starting things like I can get a vision going. Like Cross-Cultural Center that changed and redefined--I would not be here today had it not been for the work in Multicultural Programs (inaudible). I would not, it changed--that one decision to join that team changed the trajectory of my life and my career. Ho: That's really cool. Perez: I'm, I'm pretty grateful. Pretty, I am proud of the Cross-Culture Center. I'm proud of the way Floyd (Lai) has led it. I'm proud and I'm not trying to be funny. I'm proud it has stayed controversy free (laughs). I think it has done important work in really kind, meaningful relational ways. Floyd's out there doing DEIJ work, he just does it differently than someone that's out there yelling and screaming. His work that he's doing in that center, you look at what that center has done – as you are (laughs) – for the campus. He, he has that--each of the directors, I think has added and put their nuance and their flair on that center. And I'm internally grateful that 20 years later I am proud to be connected and associated with such great work. Ho: It really does feel like a center of, of love and acceptance. It's really a beautiful, a really beautiful place. And you can, you can see that from anybody that you, you talk to. They all love the Cross-Cultural Center. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 23 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: It is. And it really is. And he has just furthered that vision. Like we started with that. But the population, like you have to think, we only had, I don't know when I left, I don't even know, maybe 7,000 students at that, at the time when I left, you know, once. And then came back and we grew like in, you know, seven years to 15,000. That's, that center has stayed tried and true. Tried and true. So what that tells me is I, yeah, we set a great foundation but the folks that came thereafter have really done a magnificent job and created a legacy for that case. Sara Sheik, I think about what she added, you know, that's where the Social Justice Summit was started. We were all there. I don't know if they told you. We were sitting there and we felt like people were too much in their heads. Oh, they were just, they, it was outside of them. Outside of them. And we were like, no, no, no. I remember sitting on the swing there and we were like, we gotta do something. So then we created the exercise madder than Hell. Mad as Hell. And we wanted to get them to their hearts. And we did that exercise Mad as Hell. Scott Gross. Scott Gross and I started, Sara Sheikh came in, we created that Mad as Hell exercise. They're probably still not doing it 'cause it seemed like we had controversy at every Social Justice Summit. But we were doing that work with students. And honestly, I went through a training not too long ago and they were doing equity work and I was like, “Uh, we were doing this with students, like first-year students in 2005. And you're literally taking people through this right now? This is outdated work. What are talking about?” Then I think about the students at San Marcos? They were getting that in their first year. You tell me how much different and how transformative that would be for them coming out their senior year. Ho: Yeah. Perez: I'm inspired and moved. Ho: That's great. That's so awesome. Perez: You just made me excited about the Cross-Cultural Center even more. Ho: Wait, say that again? Perez: I said, “You just made me so excited about the Cross-Cultural Center.” Ho: I, I'm really happy and I feel like I'm supposed to wrap up this interview, but I'm afraid that you'll think of more great memories to share and things to say. I don't wanna cut us off. Perez: Yeah. Well here's the thing. I will let you know if some things come up that I think are important, I'll reach out to you and let you know. 'Cause I--I'm, I am so grateful that you all are doing this. I think it is a really critical part of San Marcos and its history. Not just as a center, but in DEIJ work. For sure. Ho: Absolutely. Yeah. And the stories from people who were there, who started these movements and experienced them and made them happen are really important. 'Cause they're not always documented on paper. Perez: Yeah. I didn't do that very well. And I'm sure others, (Ho laughs) we were, we were hustling. We were hustling for sure. Right. So, but we did it. Ho: That's great. Yeah. And we have the proof of it now, celebrating the anniversary coming up. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 24 2024-01-26 �Dilcie Perez TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-05-30 Perez: That’s exciting. I'm excited for you. So, well, it's nice to meet you. I hope that we, I just did an official visit there a few months ago, but hope we have the chance to meet in person. Ho: I hope so too! Thank you Dr. Perez. I will go ahead and end the interview now. Perez: Wonderful. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot and Aaron Williams 25 2024-01-26 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Perez, Dilcie. Interview transcription, May 30th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Dr. Dilcie Perez is Deputy Vice Chancellor, Academic and Student Affairs for the CSU, as well as a California State University San Marcos (CSUSM) alumna. She graduated with her degree in Bachelors of Arts in Political Science. In this interview, Perez explains how CSUSM was ahead of its time in regards to DEI (diversity, equity and inclusion) work; however at the beginning of her employment with CSUSM, the university did not have Multicultural Programs (the predecessor to the Cross-Cultural Center). Perez recalls her work with Multicultural Programs, including her being offered the opportunity to open the program upon tendering her resignation to the university. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dilcie Perez Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Geneva Martinot Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-05-30 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University. Multicultural Programs California State University San Marcos. Student Academic Services Outreach Program California State University San Marcos. Student Affirmative Action Education, Higher Human rights Mural painting and decoration Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-43 Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience