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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Michael De Maria
Interviewee
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Daniela Carreon
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CarreonDaniela_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-06.xml
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5.4 Carreon, Daniela. Interview April 6th, 2023. SC027-40 00:46:15 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance ; California State University San Marcos. Ethnic Studies ; California State University San Marcos. Events and Conference Services ; Civil rights ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; Escondido (Calif.) ; Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán ; Student movements ; Psychic trauma Daniela Carreon Michael De Maria CarreonDaniela_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-06.mp4 1:|16(2)|30(3)|38(15)|55(2)|67(12)|87(5)|106(2)|116(9)|141(4)|157(13)|168(9)|192(8)|202(13)|225(3)|254(2)|265(12)|275(9)|285(8)|302(2)|320(2)|332(16)|348(4)|358(8)|367(6)|377(7)|393(12)|405(10)|415(9)|424(7)|435(8)|457(10)|468(15)|482(6)|509(7)|521(16)|530(14)|547(2)|557(3)|570(11)|583(5)|596(8)|616(2)|628(14)|654(5)|666(17)|680(10)|694(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/7a398a04e0a57b5ef9c910c7403f33fc.mp4 Other video English 0 Carreon's Background Michael De Maria introduces Daniela Carreon to speak about her experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM. To begin, Carreon speaks to her background growing up Escondido and going to school in Encinitas. She explains the differing demographics and what it was like as a Latina attending a predominately affluent and White school. 0 227 Pathway to CSUSM From her earlier educational experience, Daniela explains her reasoning for attending CSUSM. She explains not wanting to attend another PWI (Predominantly White Institution), such as Sonoma State. Instead, Carreon chose to attend the ethnically and economically diverse CSUSM. Regarding personal growth, Carreon considered this one of her best decisions. 0 384 Becoming Involved with the Cross-Cultural Center Through a first-year general education course, Carreon first became aware of the CCC. For a class assignment, she interviewed former CCC director Floyd Lai. Through Carreon's work with MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán), Carreon began mentoring incoming freshman, and later applied to become the center's social media manager. 0 494 Earlier CCC Development Carreon recalls the CCC when she first began her involvement, when programs such as Critical Cougars and the Activist Lab were not yet implemented. As social media manager, Carreon's role focused on outreach and promotion of educational imagery ; an education that came from political unlearning, which Carreon speaks about later on. 0 570 Relationship Between the CCC and Other Student Organizations Through her role as a social media manager at the CCC, and her work with MEChA, Carreon remembers the solidarity between student organizations. From simply sharing the space together, to actively supporting the Kamalyan Alliance (Filipino student organization) and their initiatives. 0 681 Student and Professional Staff Carreon remembers her relationship with CSUSM employees, including Floyd Lai and Shannon Nolan. Carreon recounts assisting with program development, and recalls helping student programmers the most, particularly with event set-up and overall organization. As a previous programmer herself, Carreon was able to mentor several incoming programmers at the CCC. 0 809 Programs at the CCC Carreon recalls the different programs that the Cross-Culutral Center has offered. From her first two Social Justice Summits, to the Activist Lab, Daniela was engaged with several forms of activism and advocacy at CSUSM. Within these programs, she recalls the politically engaging conversations which considered such topics as anti-Blackness, white supremacy, and what abolitionism truly looks like. Overall, the CCC provided Carreon the ability to engage with other student activists. 0 1133 Favorite Memories and Political Unlearning Carreon recalls some of her favorite memories during her work at the Cross-Cultural Center. In particular, Carreon enjoyed getting one her friends memorialized with artwork at the CCC. Additionally, De Maria revisits the idea of political unlearning and what that meant for Carreon. Carreon recalls that the CCC provided the space to engage with conversations about gentrification, colonialism, and the intersectionality of feminism. 0 1510 Carreon's Studies at CSUSM Considering the amount of interests she had, Carreon had a hard time finding a major. She initially chose sociology for its adaptability. However once Ethnic Studies was approved as a major at CSUSM, Daniela realized this avenue best fit her intended future work. The experience of taking courses for the major was difficult, yet Carreon was glad to have declared Ethnic Studies as a major. 0 1826 CCC Impacts and Role with Other Organizations De Maria asks Carreon about the overall impacts of the CCC upon her life. Regarding cultural identity, Carreon considers her time at the CCC to have enabled her unapologetic attitude. Additionally, the Carreon considers the CCC's role with other student centers/organizations on campus. 0 2053 Underrepresented Communities at CSUSM Carreon considers currently underrepresented communities at CSUSM, including Indigenous American Indians as well as Asian Pacific Islander Desi American (APIDA) students who rely upon the CCC. Carreon discusses how CSUSM underestimated the extent to which students would engage with identity-based centers. 0 2171 Carreon's Career Ambitions As a doctoral student, Carreon defines her work and her future ambitions. This includes her research upon the impacts of trauma, specifically among Latinas. Through this work, she considers the idea of embracing joy even through traumatic moments. She hopes to continue this profound work and because of her experience at CSUSM, she would choose to apply in the future. Additionally, De Maria inquires about the challenges of utilizing quantitative data while maintaining humanistic qualities in research.
 ; 0 2617 Wrapping Up with Important Lessons Carreon discusses her biggest takeaways from her experience working with the Cross-Cultural Center. Carreon also realized her ability to disengage from potentially harmful conversations. Daniela expresses gratitude to the CCC for reinforcing the ability to walk away from difficult conversations. 0 Daniela Carreon is alumna of California State University San Marcos, where she worked with the Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) and other student organizations such as MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). In this interview, Daniela discusses her involvement with the CCC, campus changes, and her current work & ; goals as a sociology PhD student. De Maria: Alright. My name is Michael De Maria. I am a graduate research assistant at Kellogg Library at CSU (California State University) San Marcos. And today I'm interviewing Daniela Carreon about her involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center as a student staff member and a student on campus at CSU San Marcos. So, Daniela first off, I just wanted you to tell me a little bit about your upbringing, your background. I wanted you to tell me about your community that you were brought up in and a little bit about your childhood. Carreon: Okay. So, I grew up in Escondido, which is a very heavily populated Latino, Latinx community and an immigrant community. And so, sorry (laughs). So, yeah. But I went to school in Encinitas, and so Encinitas is probably about a thirty-minute drive, adjacent city. It's probably, yeah so it's a definitely more affluent and White community. And so, growing up in two cities, right, because I went to school in Encinitas but I was, my home life was in Escondido, I was often brought into like two different worlds. And not really knowing how to navigate either. And so yeah (laughs). De Maria: Perfect. And what would you describe those two worlds as in terms of characterization? Carreon: So, as far as characterization. Sorry (laughs). So, both worlds were definitely very different. As far as growing up in Escondido, I would characterize it as more low income, more people of color, more sense of community. And I'm thinking of community as far as like Latino-based, you know, community places. Specifically like, grocery stores or churches or just like where there's a higher population of Latinos. Whereas in Encinitas it was whiteness all throughout. There were pockets of like Latino people, but very, very small. And so I would characterize going to school in Encinitas as a lot more--I had to really integrate myself into the education system. I always had to behave. I also had to just, it almost felt like I was--I was often the only student of color, the only Latina Chicana Mexican woman, or a little girl in the class. And so, I think I felt the need to present myself to be the model for my community. So that is a lot of pressure for someone (laughs). And I felt the pressure through like my interactions with students, or even with my teachers, and like higher expectations from teachers who were Mexican. So yeah. De Maria: Got it. That is definitely really profound to deal with at a young age, for sure. So regarding your experience in those different communities, what led you to CSUSM (California State University San Marcos)? Carreon: What led me to CSUSM? Actually (I) did not wanna go to Cal State San Marcos (laughs). I also got into Sonoma State and I really wanted to, you know, leave. Because I felt like, okay, I've grown up in this vicinity. And actually my high school was very much--they never took us to Cal State San Marcos. I was an AVID (Advancement Via Individual Determination, college-readiness program) student for, from seventh grade to twelfth grade. They never took us to Cal State San Marcos. I had never even seen the campus until me and my mom drove by it when we, when I like accepted. But before that, I had never been on campus until like, I had to go for summer courses. So yeah, I did not wanna go to Cal State. I felt like it was going to be like high school because I'm going to class and I'm going home. So it was definitely like, how do I differentiate my experience from being just from high school? And so I was going to commit to Sonoma State, and I was trying to figure out my financial aid situation. And, you know I was gonna have to take out a student loan my first semester. (minor background noise) And I remember talking to the financial aid person and I just told her like, what is the population? I'm sorry if you can hear that (background noise). It was just like (laughs). De Maria: Totally fine. You're all good. Carreon: Yeah, so I remember asking her a question like, “What are the demographics of the students?” And during that time, I mean yeah the--you know we didn't have like TikTok, or Instagram wasn't as popularized. Snapchat was there, but not really. So there wasn't a lot of like social media digging that I could do based on the population for the students. I kind of just had to base it from what the website would say. And she told me, “You know a lot of the students here (at Sonoma State) are White, affluent, their, some of their parents own a lot of the wine countries.” And I was like, I don't really wanna be surrounded by whiteness or affluent, you know, people anymore. So, I decided to commit to San Marcos and it ended up being one of the best decisions I made. Not only financially, but I think just in personal growth, so. De Maria: Got it. And once you got to CSUSM, how did you become aware of and involved with the Cross-Cultural Center? Carreon: Yeah. So, in GEL (General Education for first-year students) like I don't remember what it stands for (laughs) but it's one of the introductory courses. I was an EOP (Education Opportunity Program) student as well, so I think that helped. But in the EOP class we had to, one of our assignments through GEL it was EOP (and) GEL together. We had to like, find a campus resource center or whatever and interview someone who worked there. So, I had emailed Floyd (Lai ; Director of the Cross-Cultural Center, 2011-2023) and he doesn't remember, but I did interview him like my first semester. And I think that was like my first integration to the Cross-Cultural Center. And also, I was also involved in MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). So I think that was also one of the ways that I was able to be involved. And Floyd had reached out, I think to our MEChA co-chairs and for the peer mentoring program for summer 2015, to be a mentor to incoming freshmen. So, I did that. And then through that Lloyd, I think SLL, which was Student Life and Leadership which is now SLIC (Student Leadership & ; Involvement Center). And C3 or Cross-Cultural Center, like were together (laughs). So, they were hiring for the fall 2015 semester. So, I applied as social media slash administration. So yeah, (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. And could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you first started engaging with it and working for (inaudible interruption). Carreon: Yeah so, oh wait, when I first started to, like, what was it-- De Maria: Like when you first started to engage and work for the org? Carreon: Yeah. When I first started to engage for the Cross-Cultural Center it was definitely I think more, we didn't have like specific programs as far as like there was no Critical Cougars or Defining Diaspora or Activist Lab (programs and spaces within the Cross-Cultural Center). I think it was more so our general interests. And I wasn't a programming person, so I didn't--I wasn't really involved in that. My role was just like social media and administration. And so, what I did through social media was kind of just posting things that fell along the mission of the Cross-Cultural Center and more like educational based images. And I think that was also just my own--I did it because I was also in this like political learning and unlearning through myself. So I think I used the Cross-Cultural Center as an outlet and also to educate others. De Maria: Yeah, for sure. And you've mentioned your involvement in MEChA already so, I wanted to just ask you what the relationships were like between on-campus organizations at that time. Especially the Cross-Cultural Center's relationship to other student advocacy groups like MEChA or the Black Student Union. Carreon: Yeah, yeah. We did work, I think with also KA, Kamalyan Alliance (Filipino & ; Filipino-American student organization). I think a lot of it was supporting them in their own initiatives of like what they wanted to do for campus. So whether it was, like our high school conference, I remember Floyd would let us use the Cross-Cultural Center to like put all of our things (inside) before like campus events. Afterwards, this was probably like two or three years afterwards, campus events (Events and Conference Services) let us use like their stuff, or how to lock up our things. And like printing, I think also like just like some funding if possible. And also just being kind of like an advocate for when or how we would've planned things. I think during that time Floyd was like the Multicultural (Programs) Students, like Rep(resentative). So I think there was a good sense of like alliance or community I think now has switched over, or at least it's switched over I think later on (laughs). To like, I think someone in SLL. So, yeah. De Maria: I see. Very cool. And student staff have often been mentioned as sort of like a catalyst behind the Cross-Cultural Center's general success. So I just wanted to know what your relationship was like between you and your superiors? Carreon: Student staff, or do you mean like pro staff (professional non-student employees) Or-- De Maria: Or both. Excuse me. Carreon: Oh, my relationship with pro staff I think was good (laughs). They made, I think I interacted the most with like Floyd and whoever was in that office next to him. So whether it was the graduate assistant, or later it was (professor) Shannon Nolan who, I don't remember her exact position. But she worked a lot with TLC, Tukwut Leadership Circle (CSUSM engagement program). And then, you know, we would cross over with like SLL professionals, but it was rare to have one-on-one meetings with them. I think when I was more so a graduate assistant, I worked more closely with the director of the Latino (Latin
/X) Center and the Black Student Center, and the Pride Center, I think that was more aligned (laughs). And, you know, working together looked like being on committees together, program development, also working with their graduate assistants. And then working at least with like student staff was always a relatively good experience. I think we always try to help each other out in whatever avenue. I think it was, I think programmers always need the most amount of help (laughs) especially with like setting up, taking down, like publicizing, practicing you know their PowerPoint (presentation program) or asking how they should outline it. So, I was a programmer for two years, so, afterwards a lot of incoming or newer programmers would come to me to see what I would do, or how I would structure things. So I think just more so looking for advice or validation. De Maria: Very cool. And one thing you've touched on multiple times is obviously the importance of those programs as a way that (the) Cross-Cultural Center really got out to students and kind of affected people's lives. Regarding those programs, did you have any involvement with the Cross-Cultural Summit as well as Café La Paz? Those are two programs which seem to have been coming up quite frequently in my previous interviews, so I— (Carreon interrupts ; two speakers) Carreon: Yeah you said, you said Social Justice Summit (diversity and activism event at CSUSM)? De Maria: Yes. Carreon: Yes. Social Justice Summit. I went to, to the Social Justice Summit when I was a freshman. So, that was also I guess my introduction to Floyd (laughs). So that was like fall 2014. And then I think I was a facilitator fall 2016, and either 2019 or 2018. So I was a facilitator for like two different periods. I'd never experienced Café La Paz (laugh). De Maria: Okay. Got it. Cool. And what were some instances of activism that you observed from the Cross-Cultural Center during the time that you were there? And I know that you were, you know serving positions as both an undergraduate and a graduate assistant as well. Carreon: Mm-hmm. De Maria: But yeah, if you could just take me through some initiatives that you guys launched or maybe some moments of activism you felt were pretty memorable. Carreon: Mm-Hmm. Trying to think. So moments of activism. Well, I mean the Activist Lab was really a kickstart to our, us being intentional of like having activist programs. And I think that came from the rise of like the Black Lives Matter movement and just what was going on politically. Also with like DACA (Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals), Trump being (in) administration and like more and more people being involved or wanting to be involved in community. So, I know we had like a Know Your Rights (political advocacy presentation) session and I know we had different like avenues of how to be an activist, cause it doesn't always have to be like out in the streets. I think some of the other initiatives of activism, or at least like intentional activism that I would say, is during the covid pandemic there was, we couldn't do Social Justice Summit. And so it was like, when was this fall twenty, fall 2020? Yeah. ‘Cause I graduated Spring 2021. So, I remember during the fall semester I really wanted to do something called Social Justice Scholars (CSUSM undergraduate social justice program). So (laughs), it was, for me it was more of an intentional group of like eight to ten students. And we were going to have conversations that kind of delved in a little deeper. Like, topics like what does it mean to defund the police? What does abolition, abolition look like? What is an abolitionist framework? Conversation circling like transphobia and anti-Blackness. And for me I think those conversations gave, or that specific--like Social Justice Scholars, which I think still continues to today, provides students who want to be, who wanna just know more in a safe and brave environment. I never had, I didn't have--well I only did it for a semester (laughs) until I graduated. But I think it allows or gives students a space, and there was nothing else on campus on it during that time. And I think also the conversations that I wanted to talk about are very political in nature (laughs), just like any other program that I put on, a lot of them were very political. So, I think the Cross-Cultural Center steering that was very one political in nature, but also just very quote unquote ahead of its’ times because were-- conversations circling like, what does it mean to defund the police and what does abolition mean? And talking about anti-Blackness as global and white supremacy are things that sometimes are hidden or want to be hidden within academia, or/and especially student affairs (laughs). So, I think those are some of the things. But as far as other avenues of activism, would be just inviting more speakers who have an activist framework. And I think paying speakers obviously as well is within itself doing activist work. De Maria: Absolutely. And those programs sound absolutely incredible (laughs). So very cool that you were involved with those and got to experience them and see firsthand what kind of impact they had. And from there I just wanted to ask you what your favorite memory from the Cross-Cultural Center was? Carreon: Mmmm. My favorite memory? I have a couple. Do I have to choose one? De Maria: You could talk about it, you could talk about a couple. I don't mind. Carreon: Oh, okay (laughs). I think one of the favorite, one of my favorite, I had always told Floyd, we need more we need more like art (laughs) in the space. So I think definitely the mural that's now in the center. It took about almost, it took a long time to do (laughs), but it took about like maybe six months, a semester to really you know, paint everything, have it installed. So I think that was one of the favorite memories. And also having like my friends be a part of it. My friend is actually the one that's like hugging himself, (laughs) and he was never really involved in campus until he met me, so it's kind of funny to see now he's memorialized on the wall forever (laughs). I think one of my also favorite parts was doing Social Justice Scholars. I think it was also my last semester. I was writing my thesis. I think it was very like cathartic healing. Every two weeks we would meet with students and, you know I'm really glad that they were able to connect with us, and also collaborating with the Latino (Latin
/X) Center and the Gender Equity Center or the Women and Gender Equity Center. And like Alicia and Laura, because they also like worked, worked on workshops. And what else is my favorite memories? I think like the day-to-day stuff of hanging out with some of my student staff. Those were probably some of my say, good memories. Yeah. (laughs) De Maria: Very fun. And I wanted to go back to something that you mentioned earlier in the, in the interview regarding you kind of mentioned a political unlearning process that you were undertaking during the time that you were at the Cross-cultural Center and that the organization kind of helped you process your way through that. And basically find a sense of enlightenment about it. So I just wanted to ask about that once again, since you have mentioned putting on like political programs and kind of making politics sort of like a focal point of the conversation about social justice. But if you felt comfortable, I'd love to hear a little bit more about what that political unlearning process was like and specifically how the Cross-Cultural Center kind of helped you become aware of it and embark on that journey. Carreon: Yeah. I think my political process of unlearning started with the murder of Mike Brown. So, it was 2014 and I was an incoming freshman. And so, a lot of it was social media at that time, ‘cause I didn't work at the Cross-Cultural Center. So, it was like Twitter and Instagram and Tumblr where I was really in this unlearning phase. And even then I've become a lot more radical in my beliefs. But back then I was eighteen (laughs). So and I was, you know, I was learning. And so it was an adjustment. I think what the Cross-Cultural Center gave me was an outlet to have conversations with people. And I think it's funny because now I'm in my pro--my PhD program in sociology. And I remember always telling Floyd like, “I don't know if I wanna be a professor or if I wanna work like with youth.” Because I was also a middle school AVID tutor during some time I was working at the center. And I think my desire to have critical conversations and help people or advocate for people, listen to people differing opinions of topics is what makes me want to be a sociology professor. And some of my programs, they were all political. I don't think they had to do with like, well they had to do with politics, but it didn't center on politics or policy. I think the first program that I ever did was what it means to be American. But I'm also like, it's been so long (laughs). But I had programs having to do unpacking, like Beyonce's Lemonade album or talking about Kendrick Lamar's album at that time and collaborating with the Black Student Center. I also had programs about gentrification and colonialism, and topics on racism and classism. I also had like the “in” in feminism, like what is like intersection, the intersectionality in feminism. Cause feminism is very, could be very White. So collaborating with like Pride (Center), and I remember I collaborated with the sociology professor at that time as well. So I think my unlearning through the center was topics that I just wanted to talk about (laughs) cause I had my own vested interest in them, but also, who else could I collaborate with? I think that was where the Cross-Cultural Center possibly got more view or more like, “Oh, they're collaborating with other people and like inviting professors and faculty to join us in conversations.” And/or other student organizations and student centers. So. De Maria: For sure. That's awesome. And next I wanted to shift a little bit and actually talk about your studies at CSUSM. I know that you're one of the first graduates of the Ethnic Studies program, so I was interested in hearing more about kind of like the early days of that program and ultimately, you know, how that influenced your current career track and what you're interested in studying. Carreon: Yeah. So I remember it was my EOP, name was Kyle, I think he's at Palomar (College in San Marcos, CA) now. Kyle Owens. Yeah. He, I didn't know what I wanted to do (laughs). I had so many vested interests. I remember I came in as a psych(ology) major and then I changed to poli sci (political science) ‘cause I really was in this unlearning process and I'm like, “I wanna work for the government and change things.” And quickly did I learn, no, I'm just kidding. (laughs). But yeah, quickly did I learn. And then I switched it again and then I was just kind of everywhere. And I remember Kyle Owens told me about like social sciences and how I can have like three degrees in one. And I was like, oh, okay. So my primary focus was sociology. And then my secondary fields are political science and psych. So I had to take a wide variety of classes. And I also decided to minor in Spanish ‘cause I passed the AP exam in high school and I was like, “Oh, I only, I only need four classes. Okay, cool.” And I think I just, I remember I took Dr. (Michelle) Holling communication 485, like Latino Chicano Representation in TV. And that really sparked my interest in wanting to go to grad school. And having her be part of my life and mentorship during that period, that was 2018, fall 2018. And she had told us like, that ethnic studies had been approved through the CSU Chancellor's Office, but it's gonna take a year for it to like, you know, be in place. And during that time I was supposed to graduate. I think it was, I was supposed to, oh no, that was fall 2017 when I took her class. And I was supposed to graduate fall 2018, but I just didn't feel, or spring 2018, and I didn't feel ready to graduate in four years. So that's when I picked up my minor in Spanish. And then I had met with her, and she gave me different courses that would qualify me to be like, that were going to be part of the courses for Ethnic Studies. So, I just started taking extra courses to fulfill the major that still hadn't existed (laughs). So I was taking like five classes. I took a class at Palomar because I had to take Ethnic Studies 101 and SOC (Sociology) 101 already had qualified or, you know fulfilled my other requirements. So it couldn't fulfill this one. So I had to go to Palomar and take Multicultural 101 (laughs) Multicultural Studies 101. And then I took, when did I graduate? Spring 2019. I took seven classes, and a grad course including that one. Just, just for fun (laughs). But really just to fulfill the, the major requirements. And I remember there was a period of time where once the major had been approved December 2018, I was told that I couldn't do it (laughs). Because I had reached, I couldn't declare the major because they said that I had passed the 120 credits or something like that. And I remember talking to Dr. Holling and other people in CHABSS (College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral & ; Social Sciences) was like, and I told them, “Well, I've been taking these classes because it fulfills the major” (laughs). So like, why can't--so they did some, some work in the backend and I was able to declare it I think within like two weeks. And then I graduated in the spring semester. So I wish I was--the only ethnic studies course I did take at Cal State San Marcos, like through the Ethnic Studies major was Ethnic Studies 301. So I had already taken Ethnic Studies 101 as Multicultural Studies at Palomar, so I didn't have to take it again. But I wasn't able to take theory or I think at that time they had like three or four other integral, integral classes that students would take. But Dr. Holling was able to just sign off. So. De Maria: I see. So my next set of questions are going to be more about the impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on your life. So a little bit more abstract. But yeah, I just wanted to know how the Cross-Cultural Center ultimately helped you develop and express your cultural identity in the long run? Carreon: Hmm. Express my cultural identity in the long run, you mentioned? Like- De Maria: Yeah. Carreon: I feel like for me, I've never been like super loud about my culture. I just kind of exist (laughs). I think the culture more so is being like outspoken and being, and like asking questions and asking critical questions and sometimes making people feel uncomfortable with my questions or my beliefs or ideas. So I think that's the legacy of like what the Cross-Cultural Center has provided me. And I've, I've gotten better. I remember Floyd always told me I'm not who I was before (laughs). And I think that's the culture that I still lead with, of just like being unapologetically myself. De Maria: Okay, I see. And regarding the Cross-Cultural Center as it is today, what role do you see it playing as it coexists with the expansion of other identity-specific student advocacy orgs? So, like as other organizations expand, I guess like what do you hope to see out of those relationships? What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing in those expansions? Carreon: Mm-Hmm. For me, I think the Cross-Cultural Center has tried to fill in the gaps of CSU’s, CSUSM’s like limitation in student centers. So specifically for like Asian Pacific Islander students, we have like the Defining Diaspora (CSUSM student workshops) and specific programs. But say like, you know, if the--if Cal State San Marcos approves for an Asian Pacific Islander Center, I think the role of the Cross-Cultural Center would shift obviously. But I feel like we have, we, or they have worked hard enough to make themselves a distinction between all the other centers, specifically with like Critical Cougars, the Activist Lab and Academe and Me. So, as of, I mean I haven't been at Cal State for two years. De Maria: Right. Yeah. Carreon: So, I don’t know what the other student centers are doing. But I think that the Cross-Cultural Center, because it's not specifically identity-based, can mold itself to different things. And it's both a, a challenge and an opportunity (laughs) because it's like, what are, what can, what else can we do or how can we do it? But it gives us the space to do it. So. De Maria: Got it. Carreon: I dunno if that answered your question, (laughs). De Maria: No, no it did (laughs). And regarding the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center) and its interaction with the student community, what communities on this, on CSUSM’s campus, do you feel are currently underrepresented? Carreon: I mean, indigenous students, I think they’re still less than 1% of CSUSMs, like total student population. I know that the California Indian Cultural Sovereignty Center, and the American Indian major and I think minor, correct me if I'm wrong, you know they're there. But from my understanding, it's they have and the, oh my gosh, AISA, American Indian Student Alliance. I don't know how like, if they're still present. But that was always a factor of how can we bring in conversations, or how can we connect with more indigenous scholars and students. And obviously the population of Black students is still probably, what, three percent? And also like what is Black faculty or administrators, what is the percentage of that? It’s probably lower. And I mean, I know that the DREAMer Resource Office (programs and services for undocumented students) is still on campus. I'm not sure if they're in the same location. I worked at the DREAMer Resource office for about a year and a half, and it was a--it was small (laughs). So, I think, you know, bigger spaces, I don't think Cal State San Marcos really anticipated for how much student centers, or the need for student centers. But yeah. De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. And next I wanted to talk about a little bit about your current career. So I know that you're currently pursuing a doctorate, and have some aspirations to go into education yourself. But did you wanna also talk about kind of what you hope to achieve in the social justice space with your platform and kind of what some of those aspirations are? Carreon: Yeah. So my career goal (laughs), I guess is, yeah, per- like finish my PhD. I do want to go back to the CSU system. I would love to go back to Southern California. If, you know, Cal State San Marcos is hiring at the time, I will be applying. Or even San Diego State or any other like, you know, nearby college. My research interests right now center among understanding and examining the experiences of Latina women undergoing cancer treatment. And I am really interested in this process of emotions and looking at like joy and grief. And I'm looking and I'm wanting to look at identity adjustments, then identity disruption, and identity development through the process of, of cancer. And then the component of familial and community care, and possibly death and dying. But I'm still working through like the nuances of my project. And so, what I hope to accomplish at least with that--and I don't know what my unit of analysis will be like, whether it's going to be like the cancer patient or if it's going to be more so like the family. But something that I've always wanted to do, and this, it's similar to my work that I did for my master's thesis. cause for my master's thesis, I looked at like the mothering experiences of single immigrant Latina mothers, and like their relationship with their children. And so I'm really into this aspect of like emotions and processing and trauma. I think my next, once I graduate and if I have a book contract, I think my book would really center on emotions and care and like healing from intergenerational trauma or death. So I think that's my component to social justice, especially tapping into this concept of joy. I think sometimes in movements, and this is what I've learned through my unlearning process through like Twitter, is that joy needs to be a constant presence in our lives. In constant oppression and marginalization and racism and homophobia and classism, we still have and will need space to practice joy. And joy doesn't always have to be like this grand thing. And that's kind of what I'm hoping to look at in my project with women undergoing cancer. It's like, did I wake up with no pain? Am I able to, you know, eat my favorite meal? Am I able to enjoy time with my family? I think I'm, I'm thinking of joy as more little things. And I think that's also what social justice movements are now more embracing. Specifically I know like the, the concept of Black joy and reading of articles of within people who are trans, and what does trans joy look like? So I think that's kind of possibly what the conversation will transition into, especially when we have been healing through so much. And I say “we” as like marginalized and minoritized communities, especially during the COVID Pandemic, the Black Lives Matter movement, and all these other things that are going on. And it's like, how do we still, how do we still practice joy? And I think maybe, you know, social media played a tool, especially like TikTok and people dancing on TikTok while there was a COVID pan- like while there was a pandemic and thousands of people were dying, and we still found moments to kind of laugh. So. De Maria: Super, super profound and incredible work it sounds like. I want to know what your biggest challenges are in terms of applying sort of like an academic quantifiable study to certain intense and qualitative topics like joy, death, love, and human experience. Carreon: Your question was, sorry, how do I-- De Maria: How, how do you kind of apply a quantitative study to concepts like that and what are your biggest challenges of doing that? Carreon: Yeah. A quantitative study. Well currently I'm in a survey methods course (laughs). So, I am actually developing a survey to, it's a pre-interview survey just to get like demographic, demographics of my population and using it as a pilot study for my dissertation. But I do wanna ask questions obviously about emotions. And it's really hard, because I am a trained qualitative researcher. So one, I'm not a quant(itative) person. But it's also hard to quantify emotions. I feel like quant, quantitative research often strips the humanity and people's experiences, and just kind of diminishes them just to numbers (laughs). So it's sometimes hard to translate--or translate that I guess. But I know that numbers are important (laughs), right? It's how we get funding. It's how to make it palatable to larger audiences. And so, I'm still trying to figure that out (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. And I was just curious because obviously the role of data and statistics also plays a huge part in social justice itself and trying to understand, you know, quantifiably where injustices are taking place, or how those injustices are manifesting themselves. So, to me it felt like a very one-to-one comparison of using a quantitative study to quantify those emotions that you mentioned in those cancer patients. As well as how some researchers, you know, have to basically fit statistical models to qualitative issues in, you know, underserved communities and things like that. So, just wanted to explore that a little bit ‘cause it was super fascinating. But taking things back to the topic at hand and to kind of wrap up our interview, I just wanted to know what the most important lesson you've taken from your experience with the Cross-Cultural Center was, and kind of how it impacted you. Carreon: You said my most important, sorry? De Maria: Lesson. Carreon: My most important lesson? De Maria: That you've taken. Carreon: Probably to pause before I speak (laughs). And to listen. Oftentimes I have learned that people who have very differing conservative you know, or even like radical opinions just kind of wanna be heard (laughs). Sometimes I am not the person to listen, but I can redirect them to someone who wants to listen. But I think my role within, obviously when I was a student, I mean a student worker there, I would listen. I think, you know, my role now as just someone who would be visiting the center, I could walk away (laughs). But, and even then I can still walk away as, as like now, but also wanting to pursue, you know, a teaching career. It's going, I'm going to get a wide variety of students with different opinions of, of coming to understand sociology. And so, definitely listening and pausing before I speak. I think a tool that I kind of took from Floyd, he would always ask me, “How did you come to that solution?” Or, “What made you think of that? And avoiding the question of, “Why?” And just trying to better understand people. So. De Maria: Awesome. Well, I wanted to thank you for taking some time out today for this interview. I think this is gonna be a great resource for anyone for trying to learn more about the Cross-Cultural Center through the lens of someone who is actually there. So again, this information was indispensable, and I'm really excited to see where your career takes you. And you know, hopefully what you'll be doing for CSUSM in the future to kind of expand the center and hopefully take up even more responsibility for the school. Carreon: Yeah (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. Thanks, Daniela. Carreon: All right. Thank you. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 
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Title
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Carreon, Daniela. Interview April 6th, 2023.
Description
An account of the resource
Daniela Carreon is alumna of California State University San Marcos, where she worked with the Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) and other student organizations such as MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). In this interview, Daniela discusses her involvement with the CCC, campus changes, and her current work & goals as a sociology PhD student.
Identifier
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SC027-40
Subject
The topic of the resource
California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance
California State University San Marcos. Ethnic Studies
California State University San Marcos. Events and Conference Services
Civil rights
Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán
Student movements
Psychic trauma
Date
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2023-04-06
Format
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video
Creator
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Daniela Carreon
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Michael De Maria
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Encinitas (Calif.)
Escondido (Calif.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Daniela Carreon
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
Latine experience
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/9da90704cc77e7e9c03910465dfda649.pdf
67d8cd755ed34dd9dac9c25137231b72
PDF Text
Text
DANIELA CARREON
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-06
De Maria: Alright. My name is Michael De Maria. I am a graduate research assistant at Kellogg Library at
CSU (California State University) San Marcos. And today I'm interviewing Daniela Carreon about her
involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center as a student staff member and a student on campus at CSU
San Marcos. So, Daniela first off, I just wanted you to tell me a little bit about your upbringing, your
background. I wanted you to tell me about your community that you were brought-up in and a little bit
about your childhood.
Carreon: Okay. So, I grew up in Escondido, which is a very heavily populated Latino, Latinx community
and an immigrant community. And so, sorry (laughs). So, yeah. But I went to school in Encinitas, and so
Encinitas is probably about a thirty-minute drive, adjacent city. It's probably, yeah so it's a definitely
more affluent and White community. And so, growing up in two cities, right, because I went to school in
Encinitas but I was, my home life was in Escondido, I was often brought into like two different worlds.
And not really knowing how to navigate either. And so yeah (laughs).
De Maria: Perfect. And what would you describe those two worlds as in terms of characterization?
Carreon: So, as far as characterization. Sorry (laughs). So, both worlds were definitely very different. As
far as growing up in Escondido, I would characterize it as more low income, more people of color, more
sense of community. And I'm thinking of community as far as like Latino-based, you know, community
places. Specifically like, grocery stores or churches or just like where there's a higher population of
Latinos. Whereas in Encinitas it was whiteness all throughout. There were pockets of like Latino people,
but very, very small. And so I would characterize going to school in Encinitas as a lot more--I had to really
integrate myself into the education system. I always had to behave. I also had to just, it almost felt like I
was--I was often the only student of color, the only Latina Chicana Mexican woman, or a little girl in the
class. And so, I think I felt the need to present myself to be the model for my community. So that is a lot
of pressure for someone (laughs). And I felt the pressure through like my interactions with students, or
even with my teachers, and like higher expectations from teachers who were Mexican. So yeah.
De Maria: Got it. That is definitely really profound to deal with at a young age, for sure. So regarding
your experience in those different communities, what led you to CSUSM (California State University San
Marcos)?
Carreon: What led me to CSUSM? Actually (I) did not wanna go to Cal State San Marcos (laughs). I also
got into Sonoma State and I really wanted to, you know, leave. Because I felt like, okay, I've grown up in
this vicinity. And actually my high school was very much--they never took us to Cal State San Marcos. I
was an AVID (Advancement Via Individual Determination, college-readiness program) student for, from
seventh grade to twelfth grade. They never took us to Cal State San Marcos. I had never even seen the
campus until me and my mom drove by it when we, when I like accepted. But before that, I had never
been on campus until like, I had to go for summer courses. So yeah, I did not wanna go to Cal State. I felt
like it was going to be like high school because I'm going to class and I'm going home. So it was definitely
like, how do I differentiate my experience from being just from high school? And so I was going to
commit to Sonoma State, and I was trying to figure out my financial aid situation. And, you know I was
gonna have to take out a student loan my first semester. (minor background noise) And I remember
talking to the financial aid person and I just told her like, what is the population? I'm sorry if you can
hear that (background noise). It was just like (laughs).
De Maria: Totally fine. You're all good.
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Carreon: Yeah, so I remember asking her a question like, “What are the demographics of the students?”
And during that time, I mean yeah the--you know we didn't have like TikTok, or Instagram wasn't as
popularized. Snapchat was there, but not really. So there wasn't a lot of like social media digging that I
could do based on the population for the students. I kind of just had to base it from what the website
would say. And she told me, “You know a lot of the students here (at Sonoma State) are White, affluent,
their, some of their parents own a lot of the wine countries.” And I was like, I don't really wanna be
surrounded by whiteness or affluent, you know, people anymore. So, I decided to commit to San Marcos
and it ended up being one of the best decisions I made. Not only financially, but I think just in personal
growth, so.
De Maria: Got it. And once you got to CSUSM, how did you become aware of and involved with the
Cross-Cultural Center?
Carreon: Yeah. So, in GEL (General Education for first-year students) like I don't remember what it
stands for (laughs) but it's one of the introductory courses. I was an EOP (Education Opportunity
Program) student as well, so I think that helped. But in the EOP class we had to, one of our assignments
through GEL it was EOP (and) GEL together. We had to like, find a campus resource center or whatever
and interview someone who worked there. So, I had emailed Floyd (Lai; Director of the Cross-Cultural
Center, 2011-2023) and he doesn't remember, but I did interview him like my first semester. And I think
that was like my first integration to the Cross-Cultural Center. And also, I was also involved in MEChA
(Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). So I think that was also one of the ways that I was able to be
involved. And Floyd had reached out, I think to our MEChA co-chairs and for the peer mentoring
program for summer 2015, to be a mentor to incoming freshmen. So, I did that. And then through that
Lloyd, I think SLL, which was Student Life and Leadership which is now SLIC (Student Leadership &
Involvement Center). And C3 or Cross-Cultural Center, like were together (laughs). So, they were hiring
for the fall 2015 semester. So, I applied as social media slash administration. So yeah, (laughs).
De Maria: Awesome. And could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you first
started engaging with it and working for (inaudible interruption).
Carreon: Yeah so, oh wait, when I first started to, like, what was it-De Maria: Like when you first started to engage and work for the org?
Carreon: Yeah. When I first started to engage for the Cross-Cultural Center it was definitely I think more,
we didn't have like specific programs as far as like there was no Critical Cougars or Defining Diaspora or
Activist Lab (programs and spaces within the Cross-Cultural Center). I think it was more so our general
interests. And I wasn't a programming person, so I didn't--I wasn't really involved in that. My role was
just like social media and administration. And so, what I did through social media was kind of just
posting things that fell along the mission of the Cross-Cultural Center and more like educational based
images. And I think that was also just my own--I did it because I was also in this like political learning and
unlearning through myself. So I think I used the Cross-Cultural Center as an outlet and also to educate
others.
De Maria: Yeah, for sure. And you've mentioned your involvement in MEChA already so, I wanted to just
ask you what the relationships were like between on-campus organizations at that time. Especially the
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TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
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Cross-Cultural Center's relationship to other student advocacy groups like MEChA or the Black Student
Union.
Carreon: Yeah, yeah. We did work, I think with also KA, Kamalyan Alliance (Filipino & Filipino-American
student organization). I think a lot of it was supporting them in their own initiatives of like what they
wanted to do for campus. So whether it was, like our high school conference, I remember Floyd would
let us use the Cross-Cultural Center to like put all of our things (inside) before like campus events.
Afterwards, this was probably like two or three years afterwards, campus events (Events and
Conference Services) let us use like their stuff, or how to lock up our things. And like printing, I think also
like just like some funding if possible. And also just being kind of like an advocate for when or how we
would've planned things. I think during that time Floyd was like the Multicultural (Programs) Students,
like Rep(resentative). So I think there was a good sense of like alliance or community I think now has
switched over, or at least it's switched over I think later on (laughs). To like, I think someone in SLL. So,
yeah.
De Maria: I see. Very cool. And student staff have often been mentioned as sort of like a catalyst behind
the Cross-Cultural Center's general success. So I just wanted to know what your relationship was like
between you and your superiors?
Carreon: Student staff, or do you mean like pro staff (professional non-student employees) OrDe Maria: Or both. Excuse me.
Carreon: Oh, my relationship with pro staff I think was good (laughs). They made, I think I interacted the
most with like Floyd and whoever was in that office next to him. So whether it was the graduate
assistant, or later it was (professor) Shannon Nolan who, I don't remember her exact position. But she
worked a lot with TLC, Tukwut Leadership Circle (CSUSM engagement program). And then, you know,
we would cross over with like SLL professionals, but it was rare to have one-on-one meetings with them.
I think when I was more so a graduate assistant, I worked more closely with the director of the Latino
(Latin@/X) Center and the Black Student Center, and the Pride Center, I think that was more aligned
(laughs). And, you know, working together looked like being on committees together, program
development, also working with their graduate assistants. And then working at least with like student
staff was always a relatively good experience. I think we always try to help each other out in whatever
avenue. I think it was, I think programmers always need the most amount of help (laughs) especially
with like setting up, taking down, like publicizing, practicing you know their PowerPoint (presentation
program) or asking how they should outline it. So, I was a programmer for two years, so, afterwards a
lot of incoming or newer programmers would come to me to see what I would do, or how I would
structure things. So I think just more so looking for advice or validation.
De Maria: Very cool. And one thing you've touched on multiple times is obviously the importance of
those programs as a way that (the) Cross-Cultural Center really got out to students and kind of affected
people's lives. Regarding those programs, did you have any involvement with the Cross-Cultural Summit
as well as Café La Paz? Those are two programs which seem to have been coming up quite frequently in
my previous interviews, so I—(Carreon interrupts; two speakers)
Carreon: Yeah you said, you said Social Justice Summit (diversity and activism event at CSUSM)?
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De Maria: Yes.
Carreon: Yes. Social Justice Summit. I went to, to the Social Justice Summit when I was a freshman. So,
that was also I guess my introduction to Floyd (laughs). So that was like fall 2014. And then I think I was
a facilitator fall 2016, and either 2019 or 2018. So I was a facilitator for like two different periods. I'd
never experienced Café La Paz (laugh).
De Maria: Okay. Got it. Cool. And what were some instances of activism that you observed from the
Cross-Cultural Center during the time that you were there? And I know that you were, you know serving
positions as both an undergraduate and a graduate assistant as well.
Carreon: Mm-hmm.
De Maria: But yeah, if you could just take me through some initiatives that you guys launched or maybe
some moments of activism you felt were pretty memorable.
Carreon: Mm-Hmm. Trying to think. So moments of activism. Well, I mean the Activist Lab was really a
kickstart to our, us being intentional of like having activist programs. And I think that came from the rise
of like the Black Lives Matter movement and just what was going on politically. Also with like DACA
(Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals), Trump being (in) administration and like more and more people
being involved or wanting to be involved in community. So, I know we had like a Know Your Rights
(political advocacy presentation) session and I know we had different like avenues of how to be an
activist, cause it doesn't always have to be like out in the streets. I think some of the other initiatives of
activism, or at least like intentional activism that I would say, is during the covid pandemic there was, we
couldn't do Social Justice Summit. And so it was like, when was this fall twenty, fall 2020? Yeah. ‘Cause I
graduated Spring 2021. So, I remember during the fall semester I really wanted to do something called
Social Justice Scholars (CSUSM undergraduate social justice program). So (laughs), it was, for me it was
more of an intentional group of like eight to ten students. And we were going to have conversations that
kind of delved in a little deeper. Like, topics like what does it mean to defund the police? What does
abolition, abolition look like? What is an abolitionist framework? Conversation circling like transphobia
and anti-Blackness. And for me I think those conversations gave, or that specific--like Social Justice
Scholars, which I think still continues to today, provides students who want to be, who wanna just know
more in a safe and brave environment. I never had, I didn't have--well I only did it for a semester
(laughs) until I graduated. But I think it allows or gives students a space, and there was nothing else on
campus on it during that time. And I think also the conversations that I wanted to talk about are very
political in nature (laughs), just like any other program that I put on, a lot of them were very political. So,
I think the Cross-Cultural Center steering that was very one political in nature, but also just very quote
unquote ahead of its’ times because were-- conversations circling like, what does it mean to defund the
police and what does abolition mean? And talking about anti-Blackness as global and white supremacy
are things that sometimes are hidden or want to be hidden within academia, or/and especially student
affairs (laughs). So, I think those are some of the things. But as far as other avenues of activism, would
be just inviting more speakers who have an activist framework. And I think paying speakers obviously as
well is within itself doing activist work.
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De Maria: Absolutely. And those programs sound absolutely incredible (laughs). So very cool that you
were involved with those and got to experience them and see firsthand what kind of impact they had.
And from there I just wanted to ask you what your favorite memory from the Cross-Cultural Center was?
Carreon: Mmmm. My favorite memory? I have a couple. Do I have to choose one?
De Maria: You could talk about it, you could talk about a couple. I don't mind.
Carreon: Oh, okay (laughs). I think one of the favorite, one of my favorite, I had always told Floyd, we
need more we need more like art (laughs) in the space. So I think definitely the mural that's now in the
center. It took about almost, it took a long time to do (laughs), but it took about like maybe six months,
a semester to really you know, paint everything, have it installed. So I think that was one of the favorite
memories. And also having like my friends be a part of it. My friend is actually the one that's like hugging
himself, (laughs) and he was never really involved in campus until he met me, so it's kind of funny to see
now he's memorialized on the wall forever (laughs). I think one of my also favorite parts was doing
Social Justice Scholars. I think it was also my last semester. I was writing my thesis. I think it was very like
cathartic healing. Every two weeks we would meet with students and, you know I'm really glad that they
were able to connect with us, and also collaborating with the Latino (Latin@/X) Center and the Gender
Equity Center or the Women and Gender Equity Center. And like Alicia and Laura, because they also like
worked, worked on workshops. And what else is my favorite memories? I think like the day-to-day stuff
of hanging out with some of my student staff. Those were probably some of my say, good memories.
Yeah, (laughs)
De Maria: Very fun. And I wanted to go back to something that you mentioned earlier in the, in the
interview regarding you kind of mentioned a political unlearning process that you were undertaking
during the time that you were at the Cross-cultural Center and that the organization kind of helped you
process your way through that. And basically find a sense of enlightenment about it. So I just wanted to
ask about that once again, since you have mentioned putting on like political programs and kind of
making politics sort of like a focal point of the conversation about social justice. But if you felt
comfortable, I'd love to hear a little bit more about what that political unlearning process was like and
specifically how the Cross-Cultural Center kind of helped you become aware of it and embark on that
journey.
Carreon: Yeah. I think my political process of unlearning started with the murder of Mike Brown. So, it
was 2014 and I was an incoming freshman. And so, a lot of it was social media at that time, ‘cause I
didn't work at the Cross-Cultural Center. So, it was like Twitter and Instagram and Tumblr where I was
really in this unlearning phase. And even then I've become a lot more radical in my beliefs. But back then
I was eighteen (laughs). So and I was, you know, I was learning. And so it was an adjustment. I think
what the Cross-Cultural Center gave me was an outlet to have conversations with people. And I think it's
funny because now I'm in my pro--my PhD program in sociology. And I remember always telling Floyd
like, “I don't know if I wanna be a professor or if I wanna work like with youth.” Because I was also a
middle school AVID tutor during some time I was working at the center. And I think my desire to have
critical conversations and help people or advocate for people, listen to people differing opinions of
topics is what makes me want to be a sociology professor. And some of my programs, they were all
political. I don't think they had to do with like, well they had to do with politics, but it didn't center on
politics or policy. I think the first program that I ever did was what it means to be American. But I'm also
like, it's been so long (laughs). But I had programs having to do unpacking, like Beyonce's Lemonade
Transcribed by Aaron
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2023-04-06
album or talking about Kendrick Lamar's album at that time and collaborating with the Black Student
Center. I also had programs about gentrification and colonialism, and topics on racism and classism. I
also had like the “in” in feminism, like what is like intersection, the intersectionality in feminism. Cause
feminism is very, could be very White. So collaborating with like Pride (Center), and I remember I
collaborated with the sociology professor at that time as well. So I think my unlearning through the
center was topics that I just wanted to talk about (laughs) cause I had my own vested interest in them,
but also, who else could I collaborate with? I think that was where the Cross-Cultural Center possibly got
more view or more like, “Oh, they're collaborating with other people and like inviting professors and
faculty to join us in conversations.” And/or other student organizations and student centers. So.
De Maria: For sure. That's awesome. And next I wanted to shift a little bit and actually talk about your
studies at CSUSM. I know that you're one of the first graduates of the Ethnic Studies program, so I was
interested in hearing more about kind of like the early days of that program and ultimately, you know,
how that influenced your current career track and what you're interested in studying.
Carreon: Yeah. So I remember it was my EOP, name was Kyle, I think he's at Palomar (College in San
Marcos, CA) now. Kyle Owens. Yeah. He, I didn't know what I wanted to do (laughs). I had so many
vested interests. I remember I came in as a psych(ology) major and then I changed to poli sci (political
science) ‘cause I really was in this unlearning process and I'm like, “I wanna work for the government
and change things.” And quickly did I learn, no, I'm just kidding. (laughs). But yeah, quickly did I learn.
And then I switched it again and then I was just kind of everywhere. And I remember Kyle Owens told
me about like social sciences and how I can have like three degrees in one. And I was like, oh, okay. So
my primary focus was sociology. And then my secondary fields are political science and psych. So I had
to take a wide variety of classes. And I also decided to minor in Spanish ‘cause I passed the AP exam in
high school and I was like, “Oh, I only, I only need four classes. Okay, cool.” And I think I just, I remember
I took Dr. (Michelle) Holling communication 485, like Latino Chicano Representation in TV. And that
really sparked my interest in wanting to go to grad school. And having her be part of my life and
mentorship during that period, that was 2018, fall 2018. And she had told us like, that ethnic studies had
been approved through the CSU Chancellor's Office, but it's gonna take a year for it to like, you know, be
in place. And during that time I was supposed to graduate. I think it was, I was supposed to, oh no, that
was fall 2017 when I took her class. And I was supposed to graduate fall 2018, but I just didn't feel, or
spring 2018, and I didn't feel ready to graduate in four years. So that's when I picked up my minor in
Spanish. And then I had met with her, and she gave me different courses that would qualify me to be
like, that were going to be part of the courses for Ethnic Studies. So, I just started taking extra courses to
fulfill the major that still hadn't existed (laughs). So I was taking like five classes. I took a class at Palomar
because I had to take Ethnic Studies 101 and SOC (Sociology) 101 already had qualified or, you know
fulfilled my other requirements. So it couldn't fulfill this one. So I had to go to Palomar and take
Multicultural 101 (laughs) Multicultural Studies 101. And then I took, when did I graduate? Spring 2019. I
took seven classes, and a grad course including that one. Just, just for fun (laughs). But really just to
fulfill the, the major requirements. And I remember there was a period of time where once the major
had been approved December 2018, I was told that I couldn't do it (laughs). Because I had reached, I
couldn't declare the major because they said that I had passed the 120 credits or something like that.
And I remember talking to Dr. Holling and other people in CHABSS (College of Humanities, Arts,
Behavioral & Social Sciences) was like, and I told them, “Well, I've been taking these classes because it
fulfills the major” (laughs). So like, why can't--so they did some, some work in the backend and I was
able to declare it I think within like two weeks. And then I graduated in the spring semester. So I wish I
was--the only ethnic studies course I did take at Cal State San Marcos, like through the Ethnic Studies
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2023-04-06
major was Ethnic Studies 301. So I had already taken Ethnic Studies 101 as Multicultural Studies at
Palomar, so I didn't have to take it again. But I wasn't able to take theory or I think at that time they had
like three or four other integral, integral classes that students would take. But Dr. Holling was able to
just sign off. So.
De Maria: I see. So my next set of questions are going to be more about the impact of the Cross-Cultural
Center on your life. So a little bit more abstract. But yeah, I just wanted to know how the Cross-Cultural
Center ultimately helped you develop and express your cultural identity in the long run?
Carreon: Hmm. Express my cultural identity in the long run, you mentioned? LikeDe Maria: Yeah.
Carreon: I feel like for me, I've never been like super loud about my culture. I just kind of exist (laughs). I
think the culture more so is being like outspoken and being, and like asking questions and asking critical
questions and sometimes making people feel uncomfortable with my questions or my beliefs or ideas.
So I think that's the legacy of like what the Cross-Cultural Center has provided me. And I've, I've gotten
better. I remember Floyd always told me I'm not who I was before (laughs). And I think that's the culture
that I still lead with, of just like being unapologetically myself.
De Maria: Okay, I see. And regarding the Cross-Cultural Center as it is today, what role do you see it
playing as it coexists with the expansion of other identity-specific student advocacy orgs? So, like as
other organizations expand, I guess like what do you hope to see out of those relationships? What role
do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing in those expansions?
Carreon: Mm-Hmm. For me, I think the Cross-Cultural Center has tried to fill in the gaps of CSU’s,
CSUSM’s like limitation in student centers. So specifically for like Asian Pacific Islander students, we have
like the Defining Diaspora (CSUSM student workshops) and specific programs. But say like, you know, if
the--if Cal State San Marcos approves for an Asian Pacific Islander Center, I think the role of the CrossCultural Center would shift obviously. But I feel like we have, we, or they have worked hard enough to
make themselves a distinction between all the other centers, specifically with like Critical Cougars, the
Activist Lab and Academe and Me. So, as of, I mean I haven't been at Cal State for two years.
De Maria: Right. Yeah.
Carreon: So, I don’t know what the other student centers are doing. But I think that the Cross-Cultural
Center, because it's not specifically identity-based, can mold itself to different things. And it's both a, a
challenge and an opportunity (laughs) because it's like, what are, what can, what else can we do or how
can we do it? But it gives us the space to do it. So.
De Maria: Got it.
Carreon: I dunno if that answered your question, (laughs).
De Maria: No, no it did (laughs). And regarding the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center) and its interaction with
the student community, what communities on this, on CSUSM’s campus, do you feel are currently
underrepresented?
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2023-04-06
Carreon: I mean, indigenous students, I think they’re still less than 1% of CSUSMs, like total student
population. I know that the California Indian Cultural Sovereignty Center, and the American Indian major
and I think minor, correct me if I'm wrong, you know they're there. But from my understanding, it's they
have and the, oh my gosh, AISA, American Indian Student Alliance. I don't know how like, if they're still
present. But that was always a factor of how can we bring in conversations, or how can we connect with
more indigenous scholars and students. And obviously the population of Black students is still probably,
what, three percent? And also like what is Black faculty or administrators, what is the percentage of
that? It’s probably lower. And I mean, I know that the DREAMer Resource Office (programs and services
for undocumented students) is still on campus. I'm not sure if they're in the same location. I worked at
the DREAMer Resource office for about a year and a half, and it was a--it was small (laughs). So, I think,
you know, bigger spaces, I don't think Cal State San Marcos really anticipated for how much student
centers, or the need for student centers. But yeah.
De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. And next I wanted to talk about a little bit about your current career. So I
know that you're currently pursuing a doctorate, and have some aspirations to go into education
yourself. But did you wanna also talk about kind of what you hope to achieve in the social justice space
with your platform and kind of what some of those aspirations are?
Carreon: Yeah. So my career goal (laughs), I guess is, yeah, per- like finish my PhD. I do want to go back
to the CSU system. I would love to go back to Southern California. If, you know, Cal State San Marcos is
hiring at the time, I will be applying. Or even San Diego State or any other like, you know, nearby
college. My research interests right now center among understanding and examining the experiences of
Latina women undergoing cancer treatment. And I am really interested in this process of emotions and
looking at like joy and grief. And I'm looking and I'm wanting to look at identity adjustments, then
identity disruption, and identity development through the process of, of cancer. And then the
component of familial and community care, and possibly death and dying. But I'm still working through
like the nuances of my project. And so, what I hope to accomplish at least with that--and I don't know
what my unit of analysis will be like, whether it's going to be like the cancer patient or if it's going to be
more so like the family. But something that I've always wanted to do, and this, it's similar to my work
that I did for my master's thesis. cause for my master's thesis, I looked at like the mothering experiences
of single immigrant Latina mothers, and like their relationship with their children. And so I'm really into
this aspect of like emotions and processing and trauma. I think my next, once I graduate and if I have a
book contract, I think my book would really center on emotions and care and like healing from
intergenerational trauma or death.
So I think that's my component to social justice, especially tapping into this concept of joy. I think
sometimes in movements, and this is what I've learned through my unlearning process through like
Twitter, is that joy needs to be a constant presence in our lives. In constant oppression and
marginalization and racism and homophobia and classism, we still have and will need space to practice
joy. And joy doesn't always have to be like this grand thing. And that's kind of what I'm hoping to look at
in my project with women undergoing cancer. It's like, did I wake up with no pain? Am I able to, you
know, eat my favorite meal? Am I able to enjoy time with my family? I think I'm, I'm thinking of joy as
more little things. And I think that's also what social justice movements are now more embracing.
Specifically I know like the, the concept of Black joy and reading of articles of within people who are
trans, and what does trans joy look like? So I think that's kind of possibly what the conversation will
transition into, especially when we have been healing through so much. And I say “we” as like
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marginalized and minoritized communities, especially during the COVID Pandemic, the Black Lives
Matter movement, and all these other things that are going on. And it's like, how do we still, how do we
still practice joy? And I think maybe, you know, social media played a tool, especially like TikTok and
people dancing on TikTok while there was a COVID pan- like while there was a pandemic and thousands
of people were dying, and we still found moments to kind of laugh. So.
De Maria: Super, super profound and incredible work it sounds like. I want to know what your biggest
challenges are in terms of applying sort of like an academic quantifiable study to certain intense and
qualitative topics like joy, death, love, and human experience.
Carreon: Your question was, sorry, how do I-De Maria: How, how do you kind of apply a quantitative study to concepts like that and what are your
biggest challenges of doing that?
Carreon: Yeah. A quantitative study. Well currently I'm in a survey methods course (laughs). So, I am
actually developing a survey to, it's a pre-interview survey just to get like demographic, demographics of
my population and using it as a pilot study for my dissertation. But I do wanna ask questions obviously
about emotions. And it's really hard, because I am a trained qualitative researcher. So one, I'm not a
quant(itative) person. But it's also hard to quantify emotions. I feel like quant, quantitative research
often strips the humanity and people's experiences, and just kind of diminishes them just to numbers
(laughs). So it's sometimes hard to translate--or translate that I guess. But I know that numbers are
important (laughs), right? It's how we get funding. It's how to make it palatable to larger audiences. And
so, I'm still trying to figure that out (laughs).
De Maria: Awesome. And I was just curious because obviously the role of data and statistics also plays a
huge part in social justice itself and trying to understand, you know, quantifiably where injustices are
taking place, or how those injustices are manifesting themselves. So, to me it felt like a very one-to-one
comparison of using a quantitative study to quantify those emotions that you mentioned in those cancer
patients. As well as how some researchers, you know, have to basically fit statistical models to
qualitative issues in, you know, underserved communities and things like that. So, just wanted to
explore that a little bit ‘cause it was super fascinating. But taking things back to the topic at hand and to
kind of wrap up our interview, I just wanted to know what the most important lesson you've taken from
your experience with the Cross-Cultural Center was, and kind of how it impacted you.
Carreon: You said my most important, sorry?
De Maria: Lesson.
Carreon: My most important lesson?
De Maria: That you've taken.
Carreon: Probably to, pause before I speak (laughs). And to listen. Oftentimes I have learned that people
who have very differing conservative you know, or even like radical opinions just kind of wanna be heard
(laughs). Sometimes I am not the person to listen, but I can redirect them to someone who wants to
listen. But I think my role within, obviously when I was a student, I mean a student worker there, I would
Transcribed by Aaron
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2023-04-06
listen. I think, you know, my role now as just someone who would be visiting the center, I could walk
away (laughs). But, and even then I can still walk away as, as like now, but also wanting to pursue, you
know, a teaching career. It's going, I'm going to get a wide variety of students with different opinions of,
of coming to understand sociology. And so, definitely listening and pausing before I speak. I think a tool
that I kind of took from Floyd, he would always ask me, “How did you come to that solution?” Or, “What
made you think of that? And avoiding the question of, “Why?” And just trying to better understand
people. So.
De Maria: Awesome. Well, I wanted to thank you for taking some time out today for this interview. I
think this is gonna be a great resource for anyone for trying to learn more about the Cross-Cultural
Center through the lens of someone who is actually there. So again, this information was indispensable,
and I'm really excited to see where your career takes you. And you know, hopefully what you'll be doing
for CSUSM in the future to kind of expand the center and hopefully take up even more responsibility for
the school.
Carreon: Yeah (laughs).
De Maria: Awesome. Thanks, Daniela.
Carreon: All right. Thank you.
Transcribed by Aaron
Williams
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�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Transcripts
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Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
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Title
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Carreon, Daniela. Interview transcript, April 6, 2023.
Description
An account of the resource
Daniela Carreon is alumna of California State University San Marcos, where she worked with the Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) and other student organizations such as MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). In this interview, Daniela discusses her involvement with the CCC, campus changes, and her current work & goals as a sociology PhD student.
This interview was conducted in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM and generously funded by the Instructionally Related Activities Fund.
Creator
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Daniela Carreon
Contributor
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Michael De Maria
Aaron Williams
Date
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2023-04-06
Subject
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California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance
California State University San Marcos. Ethnic Studies
California State University San Marcos. Events and Conference Services
Civil rights
Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán
Student movements
Psychic trauma
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Encinitas (Calif.)
Escondido (Calif.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en
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Daniela Carreon
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text
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CarreonDaniela_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-06_transcript
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
Latine experience
Women's experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/bf4f4b113bcc11eb37cf6ce6bdf0b1fc.pdf
8c4371b5c262998739da418766fb3436
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Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
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Shaffer, David. Interview transcript, November 20, 2025.
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David Shaffer
Contributor
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Jason Beyer
Date
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2025-11-20
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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David Shaffer
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ShafferDavid_BeyerJason_2025-11-20_transcript
Is Part Of
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San Diego Veterans History Initiative
Description
An account of the resource
Captain David Shaffer served in Europe as an air traffic controller during the 1960s. Shaffer was raised in San Diego County where his father was an engineer for Convair. From a young age, Shaffer aspired to become a military pilot, a goal which his tall height prevented. As an air traffic controller, Shaffer spent most of his deployment in Portugal and West Germany during the Cold War. He designed forward airfields during the 1967 Arab–Israeli war, although the conflict was over before they could be used. After leaving military service, Shaffer taught high school industrial arts in North San Diego County. He used the G.I. Bill to gain his master’s degree from San Diego State College and his private pilot license. In this oral history interview, Shaffer tells stories from his military service and reflects on the importance of patriotism.
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States. Air Force
Cold War
Consolidated Aircraft Corporation
Convair
Victory over Japan Day
Fort Bliss (Tex.)
San Diego State University
Keesler Air Force Base (Miss.)
United States. Army Corps of Engineers
Six-Day War
Sinai Peninsula
Lajes Field (Azores)
Strategic Air Command (U.S.)
Hahn Air Base (Germany)
Lackland Air Force Base (Tex.)
United States. Federal Aviation Administration
Tinker Air Force Base (Okla.)
Bundesanstalt für Flugsicherung (Germany)
World War, 1939–1945
United States. Air Force—Occupational specialties
Davis–Monthan Air Force Base (Ariz.)
McGuire Air Force Base (N.J.)
Ramstein Air Base (Germany)
Hitler-Jugend
European Recovery Program (1948–1952)
Andrews Air Force Base (Md.)
Servicemen’s Readjustment Act of 1944
United States. Department of Veterans Affairs
McClellan–Palomar Airport (Calif.)
Germany. Luftwaffe
Mikoyan (Firm)
Sukhoi (Firm)
Johnson, Lyndon B. (Lyndon Baines), 1908–1973
Fulda Gap (Germany)
Freemasons
Agent Orange
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Europe
Colorado Springs (Colo.)
Colorado
San Diego (Calif.)
California
Texas
Philippines
Pennsylvania
Cortez (Colo.)
Shelter Island (San Diego, Calif.)
Azores (Portugal)
Portugal
Germany
San Diego County (Calif.)
San Antonio (Tex.)
Oklahoma City (Okla.)
Tucson (Ariz.)
Arizona
Mississippi
New Jersey
Israel
Middle East
Austria
Bavaria
Kastellaun (Germany)
Koblenz (Germany)
Libya
Africa, North
United States
Winston-Salem (N.C.)
North Carolina
Iowa
Vietnam
Berlin (Germany)
Frankfurt (Germany)
Berlin (Germany : West)
Germany (East)
Germany (West)
Soviet Union
Garmisch-Partenkirchen (Germany)
Kitzbühel (Austria)
Zweibrücken (Germany)
Moscow (Russia)
Munich (Germany)
Philadelphia (Pa.)
Ohio
New Zealand
Australia
France
Canada
Carlsbad (Calif.)
Fallbrook (Calif.)
Arkansas
Community history
San Diego Veterans History Initiative
Veteran experience
-
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Oral Histories
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jason Beyer
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
David Shaffer
OHMS Object
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ShafferDavid_BeyerJason_2025-11-20.xml
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Veteran;Master Sergeant;United States Air Force;Germany;Portugal;Cold War;Six-Day War;Air Traffic Controller;San Diego County
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6.0 Shaffer, David. Interview November 20th, 2025 SC027-095 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran ; Master Sergeant ; United States Air Force ; Germany ; Portugal ; Cold War ; Six-Day War ; Air Traffic Controller ; San Diego County David Shaffer Jason Beyer Moving image ShafferDavid_BeyerJason_2025-11-20.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e60dc869cbce01c35fe843aa0a4ca62d.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction and Military Background David Shaffer served in Europe as a captain in the U.S. Air Force during the 1960s. US Air Force ; Captain ; Cold War ; Europe 0 56 Personal Background Shaffer was born in Colorado Springs, Colorado. At four years old, he and his family moved to San Diego, California where his father worked as an engineer for Consolidated Aircraft. His family lived in defense housing. Shaffer remembers a large celebration in Balboa Park on Victory over Japan Day. Colorado Springs (Colo.) ; Colorado ; San Diego (Calif.) ; California ; Consolidated Aircraft ; B-24 ; B-32 ; South Cheyenne Canyon Road (Colo.) ; Pikes Peak (Colo.) ; Convair ; VJ Day ; Victory over Japan Day ; Balboa Park 0 237 Military Veteran Family Members Shaffer says his great-grandfather was a soldier in the 2nd Pennsylvania Heavy Artillery Regiment in the American Civil War. He says he also had a Prussian ancestor who defected during the American Revolution and lived in German-speaking Pennsylvania. His grandfather’s brother was an Army cavalryman in the Philippines in 1898. Shaffer’s father tried to join the Navy but was rejected due to a knee injury. His father worked for Convair in Colorado Springs, studied engineering at Denver University, then moved to San Diego. 2nd Pennsylvania Heavy Artillery Regiment ; American Civil War ; Prussian ; British ; American Revolution ; Pennsylvania ; German ; American ; Philippines ; cavalryman ; Fort Bliss ; Texas ; Colorado ; Cortez (Colo.) ; Galloping Goose ; Denver and Rio Grande Railroad ; Navy ; Convair ; Colorado Springs (Colo.) ; Denver University ; San Diego (Calif.) 0 387 Work, Education, and Beginning of Military Service Shaffer was a marine engine mechanic on Shelter Island and a student at San Diego State. After college graduation, he enlisted in the U.S. Air Force. Shaffer wanted to be a pilot but was too tall, so he became an air traffic controller. Designing forward airfields was one of his responsibilities, which he did during the 1967 Arab–Israeli war. Shaffer got married at Lajes Field in the Azores, Portugal. He was a shift supervisor at Lajes Field for 18 months. He then transferred to Hahn, Germany and became the flight facilities officer at Hahn Air Base. Shaffer was the Officer in Charge of all the air traffic controllers at Hahn Air Base in West Germany from 1965 to ‘68. When his military service ended, he settled down in San Diego and became a high school teacher in North County. marine engine mechanic ; Shelter Island ; San Diego ; San Diego State University ; Air Force ; Officers Training School ; Second Lieutenant ; Air Force ; air traffic controller ; Keesler Air Force Base ; TERPS ; Terminal Instrument Procedures ; forward airfield ; U.S. Army Corps of Engineers ; Six-Day War ; Sinai Peninsula ; Lajes Field ; Azores (Portugal) ; Portugal ; Strategic Air Command ; General Curtis LeMay ; Hahn (Germany) ; Germany ; Officer in Charge ; Hahn Air Base ; West Germany ; North San Diego County 0 584 Decision to Join the Air Force Shaffer decided to join the Air Force because he always wanted to be a pilot. He was especially fond of the B-36 Peacemaker, which his father worked on as an engineer at Convair. Shaffer says his father hired many little people to install jet engines for the A model B-36 because they were small enough to enter the wing. Air Force ; B-36 ; B-36 Peacemaker ; Convair ; San Diego ; A model B-36 ; engineer ; little people 0 719 Military Training Shaffer began officers training school at Lackland Air Force Base. He tells a humorous story about how his training officers tricked the trainees into getting drunk at an officers' club then forced them to mow the lawn by hand. Shaffer’s air traffic controller training took place at Keesler Air Force Base. He then took his final exam at Tinker Air Force Base. When he returned to Keesler, he worked on the terminal instrument approach procedure (TERPS). Shaffer says he was the only TERPS certified officer while on air base in Germany. He recalls the impact that Jimmy Stewart’s films about officer responsibility had on him. Lackland Air Force Base ; San Antonio (Tex.) ; Texas ; officer trainee club ; officers' club ; Germany ; Keesler Air Force Base ; air traffic controller ; Air Force ; FAA ; Federal Aviation Administration ; ATC ; air traffic controller ; Navy ; Army ; Tinker Air Force Base ; Oklahoma City ; TERPS ; BFS ; Bundesanstalt für Flugsicherung ; Hahn (Germany) ; sergeants ; Azores (Portugal) ; Jimmy Stewart ; World War II ; Air Force 0 944 Military Promotions Shaffer was promoted to Captain while serving in Germany, but as an AFSC 1634B he could not fly. He did not receive pilot training due to his tall height and a shortage of air traffic controllers on base. Ultimately, Shaffer requested his release from active duty in Germany because he wanted pilot training. Azores ; Second Lieutenant ; First Lieutenant ; Captain ; Germany ; 1634B ; AFSC ; Air Force Specialty Code ; 1634A ; air traffic controller ; airmen ; sergeants ; Hahn (Germany) ; Air Force ; traveling ; skiing 0 1074 Adjusting to Military Life Shaffer says his disciplined childhood made adjusting to military life easy. He felt comfortable as an air traffic controller but wishes he could have flown a B-36, his favorite plane. childhood ; air traffic control ; B-36 ; Davis–Monthan Air Force Base ; Tucson (Ariz.) ; Arizona ; B-52 0 1137 Deployment to Europe After tech school, Shaffer was assigned to Lodges Field in the Azores, Portugal. Shaffer grew up in a Portuguese community of San Diego. When he arrived at Lodges Field, the family members of a childhood friend gave him a surprise welcome. He says being in the Azores felt like home. Shaffer married the daughter of a colonel at Lodges Field. Keesler Air Force Base ; Mississippi ; Lodges Field ; Azores (Portugal) ; Portugal ; San Diego (California) ; McGuire Air Force Base ; New Jersey ; Navy ; Air Force ; Colonel ; wife 0 1289 Designing Forward Airfields during the Six-Day War Shaffer designed forward airfields during the 1967 Arab–Israeli war, also known as the Six-Day War. The 50th Tactical Fighter Wing at Hahn Air Base needed a landing place in the Sinai Peninsula. Ultimately, the war was over before the forward bases could be used. Six-Day War ; forward airfield ; 50th Tactical Fighter Wing ; Hahn (Germany) ; U.S. Army Corps of Engineers ; Sinai Peninsula ; Israel ; Middle East 0 1374 Experience with Local Populations in Europe Shaffer would often snow ski during his free time in Europe. He and his friend once had a negative encounter with some German men in a bar who resented the American military presence, but overall people were very nice. While living in Kastellaun, Germany, he and his roommate decided to visit a nearby German Army base, Hunsrück-Kaserne, and drink beer with the Lieutenants there. At the base, he and his friend were treated to a German dinner with some lieutenants and colonels who told them a story. The German officers were in the Afrika Korps during WWII. In North Africa, they were captured by the British, held in a POW camp, then passed on to Americans who brought them to the United States. The German soldiers were held in a POW camp in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. In 1944, the U.S. military put them in civilian clothes and took them on a tour of the United States. Ultimately, they were sent to work on a loading dock for the R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company. At that job, there was an old night watchman called Old Gold. In 1957, after they returned to Germany, they received word that Old Gold had passed away. The German officers returned to the U.S. and served as pallbearers for Old Gold’s funeral. Shaffer concludes this story by noting how much those German officers loved the United States. snow ski ; Ramstein Air Base ; Austria ; Bavaria ; Lieutenants ; German ; World War II ; Hitler Youth ; Kastellaun (Germany) ; Germany ; Koblenz (Germany) ; Hunsrück-Kaserne ; military police ; BMW ; Afrika Korps ; Libya ; POW camp ; North Africa ; United States ; Winston-Salem (N.C.) ; North Carolina ; Marshall Plan ; Texas ; California ; Mount Rushmore ; Yellowstone National Park ; Iowa ; R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company ; Bundesrepublik Deutschland ; Federal Republic of Germany ; Bundeswehr ; West German Army 0 1854 Serving as an Air Traffic Controller in Germany In 1966, Shaffer got permission to visit Berlin where he got facility rated in the control tower at Tempelhofer Feld. Shaffer describes how the Americans did all the air traffic control in West Berlin. Shaffer says a C-130 once left Rhine-Maine and entered the corridor at Checkpoint Alpha, but the East Germans cancelled the flight plans. Shaffer believes that the East Germans wanted to cause a midair collision between an Air France passenger plane and an Air Force cargo plane. Shaffer describes how Vietnam War protests made the U.S. look like a “paper tiger” in Russia’s eyes. Shaffer was convinced that protests in the U.S. were going to cause a Soviet invasion of West Germany. Whenever Shaffer could take leave, he and his friends would go skiing. F-100 Super Sabre ; Hahn (Germany) ; Air Force ; Vietnam ; F-4 Phantom ; Ground-Controlled Approach ; Berlin (Germany) ; Keesler Air Force Base ; Mississippi ; Tempelhofer Feld ; Checkpoint Alpha ; Frankfurt (Germany) ; Checkpoint Bravo ; West Berlin ; Berlin Tegel Airport ; C-130 ; Frankfurt Rhine-Main ; Checkpoint Alpha ; Air France ; Sud Aviation Caravelle ; Stars and Stripes ; ADIZ ; Air Defense Identification Zone ; East Germany ; West Germany ; Soviet Union ; Europe ; Garmisch-Partenkirchen ; US Army ; Austria ; Kitzbühel (Austria) ; Canadian Air Force ; Zweibrücken (Germany) 0 2192 End of Military Service and Return to San Diego Shaffer was released from active duty in December 1967. He and his wife traveled to the Soviet Union, where many people admired their Western European clothes. They then spent a few weeks skiing in Austria before flying back to McGuire Air Force Base from Rhine-Main. Due to escalating anti-war protests in 1968, they returned to the U.S. in their civilian clothes. Shaffer took leave and decided to return to San Diego. He encountered protestors at Philadelphia Airport while disembarking from an Air Force bus. Shaffer says a “hippie” spit on him, so he “decked the hippie right there in the airport.” Shaffer was received well by his family and community in San Diego, which he considers a “military town.” Shaffer says he still hates those who dodged the military draft. Europe ; Austria ; Soviet Union ; Air Force ; Moscow (Russia) ; Munich (Germany) ; clothes ; Germany ; Frankfurt Rhine-Main (Germany) ; McGuire Air Force Base ; United States ; Vietnam ; the Pentagon ; Andrews Air Force Base ; San Diego (Calif.) ; Philadelphia Airport ; Philadelphia (Pa.) ; Navy ; Marines ; Army ; hippie ; protest ; Ohio ; San Diego (Calif.) ; family ; community ; draft dodgers ; New Zealand ; Australia ; Germany ; France ; Canada 0 2522 Return to Civilian Life, the G.I. Bill, and Pilot Training Shaffer started teaching high school upon his return to civilian life. He says kids’ attitudes had changed considerably since the early sixties, which he attributed to the influence of hippie culture. The G.I. Bill helped Shaffer get his master’s degree at San Diego State College (now San Diego State University) and his private pilot license. civilian life ; teaching credentials ; high school teacher ; Air Force ; hippies ; G.I. Bill ; pilot training ; VA ; Veterans Affairs ; ATP ; airline transport pilot ; private license ; San Diego State College ; Palomar Airport ; Carlsbad (Calif.) ; Fallbrook (Calif.) 0 2699 Maintaining Friendships After Service Shaffer had a close friend and skiing partner in the military, Fred Deal, who recently passed away. Their wives are still friends. friendship ; skiing ; Air Force ; Arkansas 0 2726 How Military Service Shaped His Identity reflection ; military service ; veteran ; Air Force ; Shaffer reflects on how military service shaped his identity. He says he wanted to serve in the military since he was a little kid. Shaffer hoped to fly planes in the military, but his height prevented him from receiving the necessary training. 0 2785 The F-4 Phantom Shaffer shares his experience with the McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II, also known as the F-4 Phantom. While serving at Hahn Air Base, Shaffer had to redesign the holding patterns in order to accommodate the F-4. In his opinion, the F-4 was not a good dogfighter. F-4 Phantom ; F-100 ; TACAN ; Tactical Air Navigation ; DME ; Distance Measuring Equipment ; German Air Force ; MiG ; Mikoyan ; Sukhoi ; Vietnam ; Wild Weasel ; F-105 ; radar ; anti-aircraft ; Navy ; Robert McNamara ; Lyndon Johnson ; Cuthbert A. Pattillo ; Russian ; Fulda Gap ; Hahn (Germany) ; the 50th Wing ; West Germany 0 2980 Message for Future Generations Shaffer says, “Patriotism is number one in my book.” He thinks that those who do not study history are bound to repeat it. Shaffer tells his granddaughter that “whatever land we think is ours is only ours as long as we're strong enough to keep it.” As a Freemason, he is dedicated to promoting patriotism with younger generations. history ; patriotism ; Freemasonry 0 3064 What More People Should Understand About Veterans Shaffer wishes that more people understood the difference between military veterans who were drafted and those who chose to enlist. He talks about his brother-in-law who is in poor health due to Agent Orange in Vietnam but is still proud of his military service. veteran ; draft ; Agent Orange ; Vietnam ; military 0 3144 Life Lessons from Military Service Shaffer reemphasizes that his military service taught him the importance of patriotism. He describes the United States as “the best country that ever existed on the face of the earth.” patriotism ; country 0 3211 Personal Connection with San Diego County Shaffer’s parents, sister, and friends were still living in San Diego County. After ending his military service, Shaffer accepted a job teaching high school industrial arts in North County, where he and his wife relocated. San Diego County (Calif.) ; Europe ; Germany ; Air Force ; wife ; parents ; sister ; friends ; high school ; teaching ; industrial arts ; North County 0 Oral history Captain David Shaffer served in Europe as an air traffic controller during the 1960s. Shaffer was raised in San Diego County where his father was an engineer for Convair. From a young age, Shaffer aspired to become a military pilot, a goal which his tall height prevented. As an air traffic controller, Shaffer spent most of his deployment in Portugal and West Germany during the Cold War. He designed forward airfields during the 1967 Arab–Israeli war, although the conflict was over before they could be used. After leaving military service, Shaffer taught high school industrial arts in North San Diego County. He used the G.I. Bill to gain his master’s degree from San Diego State College and his private pilot license. In this oral history interview, Shaffer tells stories from his military service and reflects on the importance of patriotism. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:03.544 --> 00:00:37.676 My name is Jason Beyer, and I'm a graduate of CSUSM (California State University San Marcos). Today's date is Thursday, November 20, 2025. And we're conducting this interview at CSUSM in the CSUSM Library, located in San Marcos, California. Today we're with veteran David Shaffer. This oral history will help preserve the lived experiences of United States military veterans. Please state your full name. 00:00:37.676 --> 00:00:39.715 David Bernard Shaffer. 00:00:39.715 --> 00:00:41.564 Your branch of service. 00:00:41.564 --> 00:00:43.424 US Air Force. 00:00:43.424 --> 00:00:45.234 The highest rank that you attained. 00:00:45.234 --> 00:00:47.103 Captain. 00:00:47.103 --> 00:00:52.005 And please state the war or conflict that was happening during your time in service. 00:00:52.005 --> 00:00:56.945 Well, it'd be the Cold War, 'cause I was in Europe in the 1960s. 00:00:56.945 --> 00:01:02.284 So right now we're gonna start with introductions. Where were you born and raised? 00:01:02.284 --> 00:01:25.105 I was born and raised in Colorado Springs, Colorado until I was four years old. Then we came to San Diego, California when I was four. My dad worked for Consolidated Aircraft building B-24s and B-32s and all other airplanes thereafter, till he retired in 1974. 00:01:25.105 --> 00:01:29.305 For the years that you were in Colorado, do you remember what that experience was like? 00:01:29.305 --> 00:02:28.004 Yes, I do. My dad—we lived on South Cheyenne Canyon Road and the river that came over Seven Falls came down in front of our house in a meadow. My dad used to go out every morning before he'd go to work, and the deer were being forced down off Pikes Peak, and he's gonna pick out a deer that he wanted for deer season and—nope, not that day. So the next day we'd do the same thing, and I'd go out there with him—oh, there's one. He'd shoot the deer. We'd pile in our '37 Ford and go up and go across our little stone bridge into that meadow, and he'd wrestle the deer up onto the fender—bring it back, hanging it up in the garage by its rear feet. My grandfather would come up and he and I would dress that deer all day long. I was a 3-year-old kid. Somewhere in my archives, I have a picture of me at three years old standing by that deer with a wooden gun (laughs). 00:02:28.004 --> 00:02:34.525 When you moved to San Diego, what was life like for you in San Diego? Or the transition to San Diego? 00:02:34.525 --> 00:03:57.064 Well, in San Diego we lived in defense housing, and my dad had told me then my mother that he's not coming home from work maybe once a month until this war was over—World War II. So he stayed at Convair—Consolidated Aircraft—24 hours a day, seven days a week, and expected his employees to do the same thing. And he said, if the soldier, sailors, airmen and Marines can live in tents and in foxholes, the last least he could do was stay at work until the war was over. And he did. I very seldom ever saw him. And on VJ Day (Victory over Japan Day)—was my sister's first birthday, so my mother's getting ready to go down and pick him up from work, and we're gonna go out to Balboa Park for a party—for a birthday party for my sister. I was a 5-year-old kid. So we went down there and my dad piled in the car and says, "Yeah, the Japanese surrendered today." So when we got to Balboa Park, I never saw such a party in my life. There were thousands of people hugging and kissing and drinking and having a grand old time. And at first I thought they were all there for my sister's birthday, but I realized they weren't (laughs). VJ Day, San Diego, in Balboa Park. 00:03:57.064 --> 00:04:00.985 Did anyone in your family ever serve in the military before you? 00:04:00.985 --> 00:06:27.274 Yes. My great-grandfather was a soldier of the second Pennsylvania heavy artillery (2nd Pennsylvania Heavy Artillery Regiment) in the Civil War (American Civil War). His dad and people before him were—well, I shouldn't say this, but I'm going to anyway. His grandfather—my grandfather's great-grandfather's grandfather—was a soldier with the Prussian army fighting with the British in the revolution (American Revolution). And he realized he'd made a big mistake. So he deserted, went over into Pennsylvania and took out a couple letters in his name and blended in in German-speaking Pennsylvania and became an American in that process in the 1700s. But yes, I have my Uncle Bliss, Bliss Shaffer. He was my grandfather's little brother. He joined the Army in 1898 and was in the Philippines. He was a horse soldier, cavalryman. And he was at Fort Bliss, Texas. And when I was a little kid, I always thought they named Fort Bliss after my Uncle Bliss. But I realized later they didn't. Anyway, he got outta the Army in 1928 and did a lot of jobs around Colorado. He had a pinto bean farm in Cortez. He drove the Galloping Goose (railcar) on the Denver and Rio Grande Railroad for a while. He drove my grandmother nuts 'cause he was always showin' up at the house with another saloon floozy (laughs)—that she called 'em. Anyway, Bliss, my grandfather, and my dad—and my dad would try to join the Navy, but my mother had taught him to ski and he'd really wrecked a knee. And he always had this trick knee the rest of his life. And the Navy wouldn't take him. He wanted to be a photographer with the Navy. So he ended up getting hired from Convair in Colorado Springs. They sent him to Denver University for a crash course in engineering that took about six or eight weeks—or months, I'm not exactly sure—in 1943. Then we came to San Diego in March of 1944. 00:06:27.274 --> 00:06:37.685 What were you doing before you joined the service? Were you going to school? Did you have a job? Or were you helping the family out? 00:06:37.685 --> 00:09:44.205 I had a job. I was a marine engine mechanic, outboard motors and inboard motors on Shelter Island in San Diego. I was a student at San Diego State (San Diego State University). The Air Force wouldn't talk to me until I had a college degree, 'cause I wanted to go to OTS—Officers Training School. So I graduated in January, 1963, then they would talk to me 'cause I could show 'em a diploma (laughs). And by the end of '63, I was a Second Lieutenant in the United States Air Force, but I was too tall to be a pilot, and that's what I wanted to be. I was six-foot four and about 220 pounds. And they said, "Nope, too tall." So I was—I said, "Okay, air traffic control, then. I wanna be an air traffic controller." So they sent me to Keesler Air Force Base in January of 1964 as a Second Lieutenant for tech school for air traffic control. And I finished that along with a TERPS (Terminal Instrument Procedures) certified terminal instrument approach procedure. It would've been my job, if we'd ever had to deploy to a forward airfield, to design the forward airfield to give it to the Corps of Engineers in the Army and also the BCE, the base civil engineers of the Air Force, to build the runway where I had designed it. And in 1967, that Six-Day War, I designed six of them in the Sinai Peninsula for real. But they never used 'em 'cause the war was over in six days. Which amazed me, 'cause I had gotten married the day that war started. I had a wife floating around somewhere in the world, and I didn't know where she'd gone. So after six days, I signed out on leave to go find her. And we ended up finding her. Had the church wedding in Lajes Field in the Azores (Portugal). Now air traffic control officers are required to be shift supervisors in bases that are run by the Strategic Air Command (SAC). General LeMay (General Curtis LeMay) said, "I want all of my shift supervisors and all SAC bases to be officers." Well, it was a good way of getting training to become a flight facilities officer later, like I was at Hahn, Germany. I was a shift supervisor in Lajes Field for 18 months, and then I was transferred to Hahn, Germany as the flight facilities officer. I was the OIC (Officer in Charge) of all the air traffic controllers at Hahn Air Base, West Germany from 1965 to '68. And then my wife—being an Air Force brat, I married the colonel's daughter that I found in the Azores—she didn't want to spend any more time living three years here and three years there, so I didn't go into air traffic control when I got back to San Diego. I had teaching credentials from the state. I started teaching industrial arts and history in high schools here in North San Diego County. 00:09:44.205 --> 00:09:48.433 Why did you particularly choose the branch that you served in? 00:09:48.433 --> 00:11:59.904 Well, I wanted the Air Force because I wanted to fly. I was in love with the B-36 Peacemaker, and I wanted to fly a B-36. I just, ever since I was a kid, my dad had—they brought—the B-36s were built by Convair. They came to San Diego. The A model did not have the jet engines on the wingtips, and all of the jet engines were added to the A model B-36 here in San Diego. And it was my dad's job to figure out how to put the—as an engineer at Convair—to figure out how to put those jet engines on an airplane that was already built. There was two ways of doing it. Either take the skin off of the wing and do all your work and then re-skin it, which meant you had to re-stress the wing—and it was very time consuming and expensive. Or, find somebody small enough to get out in that wing and do the work. So in the summer of 1951, I believe it was—50 or 51—he and two other engineers advertised all over the country for what we today call little people. But in those days we called 'em dwarfs and midgets—not to be derogatory, but that's what they were called. He hired 300 of them that came to San Diego that could get out in that wing and add all the hardware and tubing and brackets and everything to mount those jet engines. At one time, San Diego had more little people—midgets and dwarfs—than any other city in the United States. They were well thought of, they were well paid, and they were very valuable employees even after those jet engines were added to the A model B-36, because there's a lot of places in building an airplane that an adult six-foot tall or five-foot eight and above can't get into to do the work. So they were very, very valuable employees and very well considered. They were loved. 00:11:59.904 --> 00:12:07.715 So we're moving on to your early military experience. What do you remember about your first days in the military? 00:12:07.715 --> 00:13:34.595 Well, my first days in the military were in officers training school at Lackland Air Force Base, San Antonio, Texas. And it's basically what I thought it was going to be. They're not interested in my opinion. They just—I'm to do what I'm told. And so I did. I tried to cooperate the best I could. I made it through there. When our upper class graduated and got their commission as second lieutenants, on a Saturday we got all called together—we're lower classmen. They said, "Monday morning you're gonna be upper classmen, and what we're gonna let you do is go to the OT club"—the officer trainee club, just like a regular officers' club where they had beer and so forth. Now we're all college graduates. We're all 23, 24 years old, and we haven't had a beer in months, so we went in there and within two hours there wasn't a sober person in there. And all at once in the front door come all our training officers all upset with us. So we're out there mowing the lawn—by hand, mowing the lawn. Years later in Germany, I ran across a colonel that was one of the instructors there. And I told him about that. He says, "Oh yeah, we sat out front in the car, and we called the bartender once in a while. Are they ready yet?" It was a big setup, but I thought it was funny, anyway (laughs). 00:13:34.595 --> 00:13:37.475 What kind of training or schooling did you complete? 00:13:37.475 --> 00:14:43.345 Well, the schooling was at Keesler Air Force Base. It was basically—teach you how to be an air traffic controller. The Air Force was the only one at that time that used the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) written exam as an ATC, air traffic controller. The Navy and the Army had written their own—why, I don't know. But we went up to Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma City and took our final exam in the FAA headquarters there in Oklahoma City and then flew back to Keesler. And then after we got back to Keesler, we worked on this TERPS, this terminal instrument approach procedure that officers only are responsible for. I was the only TERPS certified officer on the air base there in Germany. But I worked with a BFS TERPS man from—the BFS is the German FAA (Federal Aviation Administration), the Bundesanstalt für Flugsicherung (Federal Institute for Air Traffic Control). And he and I would design all the—and would change all of the instrument approach or departure procedures for Hahn that needed to be changed, like holding patterns and so forth. 00:14:43.345 --> 00:14:49.264 Do you recall any instructors or leaders who had a lasting impact on you? 00:14:49.264 --> 00:15:44.304 Yes, I do. My sergeants. I learned more on a shift there in the Azores from my E7s and E6s and E5s that I worked with than I ever learned in officers training school—other than one thing in officers training school that I really enjoyed. Every week we had a little film done by Jimmy Stewart. And Jimmy Stewart was a general in the army. He was a bomber pilot in World War II, and he would make a film on officer responsibility—how we were supposed to behave as officers in the United States Air Force. And I really looked forward every week to sitting down and listening to that 20-minute or 30-minute film from Jimmy Stewart. It was really great. 00:15:44.304 --> 00:15:50.264 Were there any promotions or milestones during your early days of service that you'd like to share? 00:15:50.264 --> 00:17:54.597 Well, I was promoted in the Azores from Second Lieutenant to First Lieutenant. And I was promoted from First Lieutenant to Captain in Germany—almost the same time I got married in '67. That was all happening at the same time. And I was glad I made it to Captain, but as a 1634B, which is my AFSC, my Air Force Specialty Code, 1634B meant air traffic control officer, non-rated, no wings, maximum rank, captain. A 1634A was an air traffic control officer doing the same job with wings, maximum rank unlimited. And in 1967, I was trying to get—I was still young enough by about three months—to get into pilot training and they were gonna waiver me for my height. But the command that's in charge of air traffic controllers wouldn't release me from my air traffic control duties because it was less than 80% manned worldwide. I was authorized to have 96 airmen and sergeants work for me there in Hahn Germany. And I was lucky if I had 60, because the Air Force could not keep enough air traffic controllers to keep everybody fully staffed. And I understood that, but I lost my opportunity to become a winged pilot. I told them I would go right back into air traffic control if I could just get my wings and be a 1634A instead of a 1634B. And finally I decided to request a release from active duty. So I requested a release from active duty in Germany. My wife and I stayed there for a few more months traveling, around and skiing and so forth before we came home. 00:17:54.597 --> 00:18:00.000 What was the hardest adjustment to military life for you? 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:22.125 It wasn't really difficult. I had a very disciplined childhood. My dad was the kind that didn't tolerate fools very well. So if I acted like a fool, I got notified of the fact. So it wasn't really hard. It was very easy. As a lieutenant and captain. 00:18:22.125 --> 00:18:25.954 What part came naturally or felt the easiest for you? 00:18:25.954 --> 00:18:57.664 Well, the air traffic control just kind of was—not easy, but it was comfortable. I liked it. But I would've liked to have flown that B-36. But by the time I got in the Air Force in 1963, all of the B-36s were in the boneyard at Davis–Monthan Air Force Base in Tucson. The B-52 had taken over the B-36, but I was really in love with that B-36 from a little kid on. 00:18:57.664 --> 00:19:06.204 So we're moving on to your deployment to Europe. When and where were you deployed in Europe? 00:19:06.204 --> 00:21:29.115 Well, my first assignment out of tech school at Keesler Air Force Base in Mississippi was to Lodges Field in the Azores, Portugal. And I got those orders while I was still in tech school in Mississippi. And I'd grown up in a Portuguese colony here in San Diego. And all my kids and I from the fourth grade on were Portuguese. And one of my best friends could not believe that I got sent to Portugal. He thought that was a funny—"How'd you pull that?" I didn't, it just happened. When I got off the airplane in Lodges Field from McGuire Air Force Base in New Jersey in three o'clock in the morning, the only people on the airplane were Navy and Air Force personnel for the base, and I coming down the ladder there, the steps to get off the airplane, and there's a string of Air Force and Navy personnel to accept their new troops. And there are 10 Portuguese civilians standing there. And I thought, what in the world are they doing out here at three o'clock in the morning? I got down to the bottom of the steps, they hollered out my name, they all came running over, were shaking my hand and giving me hugs. They were the grandparents, uncles, cousins, all the relatives of the kid that I'd grown up with in this Portuguese community in San Diego. And my Colonel looks over at me. He says, "Come over, stand Lieutenant. You've been here before? How come you know everybody?" And I had to think about it for a minute, 'cause my mother had told all our neighbors that I was being—and they were all Portuguese for that, in that period of time—that I'm getting transferred to the Azores, Portugal. And one of my friends that I grew up with, the only kid in the fourth grade that was not Portuguese, that he and I got to be friends first—when I first went into this school in San Diego—he kept talking to my dad about it. He kept—"How in the world did they do that? Get to Portugal?" But I loved their father music, their folk music that we used to play in school. I loved their food they had. The Portuguese food, their wines. It was just like old home, being in the Azores. I met my wife there. She was a daughter of a Colonel there on the base. 00:21:29.115 --> 00:21:37.345 What stands out most about your time overseas? Moments that were meaningful or difficult? 00:21:37.345 --> 00:22:54.233 It was a little difficult with that Six-Day War. I thought for sure—I'd gotten married the day that thing started, and I got put on alert instantly. And I started designing those forward airfields because our 50th tac fighter wing (50th Tactical Fighter Wing) at Hahn had to have a place to go. And it was up to me to tell the Corps of Engineers (U.S. Army Corps of Engineers) and the Air Force where was a place that was proper to build an airfield in the Sinai (Sinai Peninsula). And I thought for sure I was gonna end up down there in the Sinai Peninsula. And that was a little difficult those times right in there. But the war was over in six days. I couldn't believe it. How could Israel have taken care of all that in six days? Was just amazing to me. So for those six days it was a little tiring, a little troublesome, 'cause we were dividing up our air traffic controllers to stay at Hahn and most of 'em were gonna go with me down to the Mid East. We were just—and all our fighters were getting ready to go down to the Middle East when the time came to help out. And we didn't get to go. Which is fine. 00:22:54.233 --> 00:22:59.204 What were your experiences like with the local populations or different cultures in Europe? 00:22:59.204 --> 00:35:51.695 Well, the local population, the Germans, were glad we were there. I liked to snow ski. So my friend who was stationed at Ramstein (Ramstein Air Base), he and I were snow skiers and we were always heading to Austria on our leave time to go skiing. We got down in Bavaria and it was so snowy and icy, we couldn't make it on into Austria. So we checked into a (unintelligible) down there. And there were—what did two young Lieutenants do the first thing they get their junk thrown in their room? They head for the bar for a beer! So we're down in the bar—and speaking English, of course—and a couple of guys that were only about six or eight years, maybe five years older than we were—German guys—way too much stupid juice came over and they wanted to pick a fight. They wanted to go out and fight in the snow. Mm-hmm (Shaffer shakes his head). You take a swing at me in here and that's gonna be the last one you swing at me. And finally some older guys came over—World War II vets—and told 'em to knock it off and to be thankful we were American military and not Russian military. And that calmed them down. They went away, but they were probably Hitler Youth and been brainwashed as teenagers. Never made it into the German army, but they had poor little alcohol on them. And up comes all of that stupidity from the—as a Hitler youth. But for the most part they were very nice. Very, very nice to us. And in our town where I lived, Kastellaun, Germany, which is just west of Koblenz, there's a Hunsrück-Kaserne (Hunsrück Barracks), Kastellaun, a German Army base there—tanks, Panzer base. And it was only about a half-a-mile from our house. And my roommate and I decided one afternoon—we were both wandering around the house, still in our uniforms—we're gonna go up to that Hunsrück-Kaserne, Kastellaun and have a beer with the other Lieutenants up there—see what they're up to. So we went up there, the gate guard, the MP (military police) at the gate wanted to know if we knew where the officer's club was. And I said, "No, we've never been on the base before. Driven around it a lot, but never on it." He said, "Well, let me show you." So he jumps on his BMW motorcycle and led us to the officer's club. Walked in there and there's nothing going on down the hall to the right in the bar. I couldn't figure it out. It's not like our fighter base where all the fighter pilots are in there trying to out story each other. Anyway, we walked down the hall and I heard voices in a room just to my left. And I opened the door to see what was in there, and it was a private dining-in with all these German army officers, from two Colonels all the way down to some Lieutenants at the end of the table. And I said, "Oh, excuse me." And I started to close the door. And the Colonel says, "Oh, wait a minute. Come here, come here. I wanna talk to you." So we walked in there. He says, "What's your deal here?" I said, "Well, we live downtown. We just thought we'd come up to the Hunsrück-Kaserne for a beer with the—your lieutenants—and have a beer with you guys." He says, "You had anything to eat yet?" No. "Would you like to join us?" So yes, that'd be nice. So the lieutenants set us up, a couple chairs down at the end in place setting. We had dinner with them—full dining-in, German style. And at the end of the dining-in, the two Colonels up at the—full Colonels—up at the end of the table said, "I wanna tell a story, especially to the two American Lieutenants down there." They had been soldiers, young soldiers, young Lieutenants, in the Afrika Korps. And they were taken prisoner by the British, and they were in a little field, POW camp in North Africa—in Libya probably. And when the United States entered the war in 19—and sent all the troops over in '42 to North Africa, the ships were gonna go back to the United States empty. So they put all of the POWs they'd collected—the British and the Americans—into those ships and brought 'em back to the United States. And these two colonels, along with two other Lieutenants were—four of 'em were buddies—they were put in a POW camp in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. So they spent the rest of the war in Winston-Salem. And because of the Marshall Plan, Marshall told all of the POW—all of the commanders of POW camps in the United States—to treat them well, because whatever's gonna become of Germany after the war is over, these guys that are in these POW camps are going to be the leaders of whatever Germany is to become. So treat them well, so they're not all pissed off at the United States. So in the summer of 1944, they gathered up all of these young Lieutenants and Captains and so forth into a room, into an auditorium, and told them that—that you guys are gonna be the leaders of Germany, and what we want you to do—you don't have to do it, but if you want to—we're gonna put you in civilian clothes, put you on a train, and give you a tour of the United States. So they did. The summer of '44, they went all the way down into Texas, across into California, and up across by Rushmore (Mount Rushmore), Yellowstone (Yellowstone National Park), all the way back across the north, through Iowa, and back to North Carolina. And when they got back there—this is the fall now or the late summer of '44—they said, "We need—if you want to, you would like to, there's an awful lot of businesses in the town here that need help. If you want to, we'd like to send you out to do something besides sitting in the camp." So the four of 'em decided, yeah, they wanted to do that. So they sent 'em to the loading dock on the R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, loading product on the trains in the evening at night shift. And there was an old night watchman on the dock there called Old Gold. And Old Gold was way up in his sixties or seventies. He weren't too sure he wanted four German Lieutenants on his dock. But after a few days he realized, these guys are okay. So Old Gold invited them over to his house for Thanksgiving 1944, Christmas of '44, and Easter of '45. The four of them went back to Germany, and when the Bundesrepublik (Bundesrepublik Deutschland, or "Federal Republic of Germany") was formed in 1953, they went back into the West German Army (Bundeswehr). And in 1957, they were probably all four of 'em Majors or Lieutenant Colonels, Old Gold died. All of 'em took leave from the West German Army, went back to Winston-Salem to be Old Gold's pallbearers. And I would love to have a picture of that if I could find it. Old Gold being buried and being carried by four West German Majors or Lieutenant Colonels. But their love for the United States was just as great as those guys I'd met down in Bavaria that said, "Be thankful they're American soldiers and not Russian soldiers." And in 1966, late '66, we had F-100 Super Sabres there at Hahn. The Air Force, decided to send them back to the States—probably needed them in Vietnam—and provide us with F-4 Phantoms. So there was a period in there of about eight weeks in the late fall, early winter of '66, where we didn't have any airplanes. So I got orders to send my controllers except for a skeleton crew that ran the GCA (Ground-Controlled Approach) and tower during the day—five days a week, just Monday through Friday—and shut down that air base until we got our F-4s. So I gathered 'em all together and asked them where they wanted to go. Some of my sergeants and airmen wanted to go to Berlin. Well, a fellow I'd gone to tech school with in Keesler Air Force Base down in Mississippi, he was doing the same job at Tempelhofer Feld in Berlin that I was doing at Hahn in Germany. So I said, "I want to go too. I wanna see what Berlin's like." So I got permission to go there, and I got facility rated in the control tower. I wasn't there long enough—as long as my sergeants were—I had other things I had to do. I had to get back to West Germany, prepare for the F-4. And the corridor between Checkpoint Alpha, which is just outside Frankfurt, and Checkpoint Bravo—it's when you enter the American sector of West Berlin. And everybody knows about Checkpoint Charlie. That's the third one. That's a footpath in and out east to east. It was all run by the East German air traffic controllers, en route air traffic controllers. So I was sitting there in the control tower one afternoon, and Tegel (Berlin Tegel Airport) was the only civilian airfield in West Berlin, and it was up in the French sector. And we did all the air traffic control in West Berlin—period. Whether it was the American sector, the British sector, or the French sector. So they had to get permission from us to take off and land at Tegel. We had up above Tempelhofer Feld in the American sector, what we call the upside down wedding cake. It wasn't real long approaches to—along the final. It was a kind of a spiral down and a spiral up to get into those corridors. So C-130 had left Rhine-Maine, which is in Frankfurt (Frankfurt Rhine-Main), and entered the corridor at Checkpoint Alpha. And the East Germans canceled his flight plan. And I thought at the time, "Well, why would they do that?" And they were—the pilots flying in and out of Berlin—were briefed, if they do that to you, to shut off all your electronics, all your transponders, everything, and pull out flaps and throttle back and go into what they call slow flight, but don't try to turn around in that corridor or they're gonna shoot you down. So I thought, "Well, he's almost 200 miles away, and he's in slow flight. Now what's the deal?" About that time an Air France Caravelle (Sud Aviation Caravelle) called me from Tegel for takeoff. And I said, "Well, I can't have him ascending in the corridor until I know where that C-130 is." So I told him to stay on the ground until further notice—stay right where he was. About the time I said that, the East German air traffic controller called me and says, "Clearance is approved on the 130." They wanted us to have a midair right over Berlin between an Air France passenger plane and an Air Force cargo plane." Can you imagine that? And every time there was a war protest that went on over here in the United States, especially in Berlin—draft burning and draft dodging and all this other stuff—the Stars and Stripes newspaper would publish it. Of course, the Russians were keeping track of what was going on here too. They thought it was hilarious that we were a paper tiger. They pushed the ADIZ, the Air Defense Identification Zone, between East Germany and West Germany, with just masses of aircraft. And I thought for sure we were gonna get invaded. I didn't think we'd ever not be invaded because of the actions of the war protestors here in the States, especially giving the Soviet Union a green light actually to invade by their attitude here. And fortunately they didn't, but I don't know why they didn't. Sure came close. 00:35:51.695 --> 00:35:59.005 While you were stationed in Europe, did you do anything for good luck or did you have good luck items during your time of service there? 00:35:59.005 --> 00:36:32.224 Well, I loved to snow ski, so I was always heading for Garmisch-Partenkirchen, which is run by the US Army, or the ski areas in Austria. Kitzbühel was my favorite spot in Austria. We'd take leave—probably a week or so, two weeks maybe—in January, and head for Kitzbühel, Austria to go skiing. All of us. The Canadian Air Force was at Zweibrücken down by Ramstein. All the Canadians and us we're always truckin' down to go skiing (laughs). 00:36:32.224 --> 00:36:41.000 So now we're getting ready to talk about your transition out of service. Do you remember the day your service ended? And please describe what that was like. 00:36:41.000 --> 00:40:47.905 Well, I got a release from active duty, actually on the 20th of December '67. And my wife and I decided to stay in Europe. We went back to Austria to go—she liked to ski too—so we went back to Austria. We did make a trip to the Soviet Union. I wanted to see how the other half lived. And I asked the Air Force if it'd be all right if I—my wife and I—went to Moscow. They said, "Oh hell yeah, Dave. You don't know anything. They'd pull all the fingernails outta you they want, but you're not gonna tell 'em anything that's important." So we did go to Moscow. And what Moscow reminded me of in January, 1968, was it was run by a bunch of junior high school kids. They didn't know how to make change in the store. They didn't know how to make change in the restaurants. They didn't seem to care if you were satisfied or not. They'd walk down the street and about knock you in the gutter in, and my wife was all dressed up in her Bavarian clothes 'cause she had been going to college in Munich when we got married. And so they saw these European clothes on us—Western European clothes. We could have gone back to the hotel every night naked because all the locals wanted to buy our clothes off of us. And after that we came back to the Germany and got the car and went down to Austria—spent about three weeks down there skiing and having a good time before we came back to the States. But when I went back up to Rhine-Main to fly back to McGuire, I was authorized to put my uniform back on. I was—all of us lined up to get on the airplane, and the Air Force personnel came out and said, "Do all you guys have civilian clothes?" Yes. "Well, please go put 'em on. Don't be going back to the United States in your military uniforms in '68." And so I went back in—had to put civilian clothes on a ride home. Embarrassing—because of the hatred for Vietnam they were taking that out on us. In 1966, as an Air Force officer in the com squadron, we were also responsible for all of the secret stuff that was going on in the combat operation center. And they had cards printed. And I would take the crypto cards back—had to take the crypto cards back to the Pentagon. And I thought, "Well, no way I can get out of Andrews Air Force Base back to Germany." But I got up to McGuire. And then I thought I'd take a leave and come back to San Diego for a couple days—visit my folks—hadn't seen 'em in several years. So I got a boarding pass out of Philadelphia Airport. And so I piled on the little Air Force bus and rode from McGuire Air Force Base to the airport in Philadelphia. I was the only officer on the bus. There were Navy, Marines, and Army on there. And as I came in there, I got to go through the door first, right into a bunch of hippies that were having a protest. And I got spit on—I decked the hippie right there in the airport. He was out cold instantly. And all the soldiers and sailors and airmen behind me kinda huddled around me, and we stepped over him and went onto our airplane. But that was my first interception of a hippie that spit on me. Now I wasn't so much worried what the Philadelphia police were gonna say to me for deckin' that hippie. I was worried what the Air Force is gonna say. Air Force officers aren't supposed to be decking hippies in airports. I was afraid of what—they were gonna chew me out for it. But nobody ever did anything. About somewhere over Ohio, I cleaned up my uniform and my knees quit shaking. I sat down properly in the airplane and rode on to San Diego. 00:40:47.905 --> 00:40:54.005 How were you received by your family and your community once you returned? Did you come back to San Diego? 00:40:54.005 --> 00:40:55.000 I came back to San Diego, yes. 00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:56.724 How were you received by them? 00:40:56.724 --> 00:40:58.485 Fine. Fine, yes. 00:40:58.485 --> 00:41:00.885 What about the community here in San Diego at this time? 00:41:00.885 --> 00:42:02.195 Oh, well, San Diego is a military town and was more so military in those days than it is today. And it's still a very much of a military town. So it wasn't hard to get accepted back in San Diego. However, I always had a heartburn for draft dodgers. I ran into neighbors, guys I worked with after I left the Air Force, that had all gone to New Zealand, Australia, Germany, France, everywhere—Canada—everywhere in the world to evade the draft—guys my age. And they wouldn't back off. They would call me a lifer. They had all these comments, and the hatred is still there. I have one that still lives in my neighborhood and I won't talk to him—that did that. I just want nothing to do with him. To run off—he ran off to New Zealand to stay away from the military draft. 00:42:02.195 --> 00:42:10.000 This sort of leads into our next question. So what was it like adjusting for you back into civilian life after the military? 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:52.000 Well, coming—I started—I had teaching credentials as a high school teacher before I ever went in the Air Force, so I started teaching high school. And one of the problems was, with my airmen, if I said something, it's "yes sir, no sir." And trying to convince high school kids that I'm in charge was not that easy. See—(Shaffer mockingly mumbles). The attitude of the kids had changed considerably since I got my teaching credentials in the early sixties. By the late sixties, they'd been influenced by too many damn hippies, I think—'cause I could not stand hippies (laughs). 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:59.000 Did the G.I. Bill influence your next steps after the military service as far as going back to school or— 00:42:59.000 --> 00:44:59.304 Yes, yes. I wanted to learn to fly since I was a kid. And since the Air Force wasn't gonna teach me to fly, I'm gonna do it myself. So I went—I thought, well, I'll use my GI bill to help with my pilot training. So I went down to the local office. They said, "Well, we don't pay for the private, but we'll pay for"—this is the VA (Veterans Affairs) now talking about—"we'll pay for everything above your private"— like the commercial, the instrument, the ATP (airline transport pilot) and all the others above it. So I said, "Well now, how am I gonna pay for the private license?" So I decided to sign up at San Diego State for my master's degree, went back to the VA and said, I'm going to go to San Diego State College to get my master's. I need—they said, "Good, we'll send you some money." Well, I used the money they sent me from my master's to get my private. And I got a master's and a private all at the same time. Then I transitioned—after that, now I have a private license—to Palomar Airport in Carlsbad, California to work on my commercial pilot's license. So I used the balance of my G.I. bill at Palomar Airport with flight trails on my commercial. I accumulated maybe 750 hours total by the end of that. And then I'm on my own nickel. So I joined flying clubs and had a friend at work that had an airplane, but he needed all of us at work that had pilot's licenses to rent it from him several times a month so he could make the monthly payments on it. So I rented his airplane for a long time. He lived in Fallbrook, California, and I'd fly it out of Fallbrook and take the wife and kid somewhere, if they wanted to go. 00:44:59.304 --> 00:45:03.835 Did you maintain any friendships after your time in service. 00:45:03.835 --> 00:45:26.585 With the people in the military? Yes. This Fred Deal, the one that I had gone skiing with. He left the Air Force about the same time I did. And yes, until he passed away just a few years ago. His wife Angie is still a friend of my wife's. They live in Arkansas now. He was a good friend. 00:45:26.585 --> 00:45:35.764 So now we're moving on to reflections. How has your military service shaped who you are today? 00:45:35.764 --> 00:49:40.074 I don't tell—I'm like my dad—I don't tolerate fools very well. And I like everything orderly and straightforward. I don't like wishy-washy things. And when I was a little kid, I thought to myself, "I don't want to be 85 years old and not be a veteran." And I think about that all the time. Now that I'm 85 years old and a veteran—good. I didn't want to ever be 85 and not be a veteran of something. Either I was gonna join the military right outta high school or right outta college. And since I wanted to fly airplane so bad in those days, as a kid, I thought, "Well, I'll wait until I'm outta college and then—" But being too big, they wouldn't take me. I wouldn't fit in the cockpit. One of my jobs in the Air Force, when we got the F-4 Phantom, they couldn't hold the holding patterns on our air base of the F-100. It would—the interturn between two TACAN (Tactical Air Navigation) radials at 15 DME (Distance Measuring Equipment) was—we were way over in a German Air Force's airspace. So I had to redesign the holding patterns for that F-4 'cause it ate up real estate like crazy. And I thought this is ridiculous. That F-4 should have been a bomber, not a fighter. It was not a good dogfighter, for instance. The German or the Russian MiGs (Mikoyan, MiG) and Sukhois (Sukhoi) could have outturned that thing in a heartbeat if we'd ever gone to war with them. Now in Vietnam, they used the F-4—and they had the same problem—but they used it for what they called the Wild Weasel. It would go in ahead of the 105s (F-105), pick up the radar from the anti-aircraft sites, and then fire a rocket right down the—their own rocket, their own radar right into them. But as a dogfighter, in my opinion and the Air Force's opinion, it was not a good dogfighter. It was heavy. It still had the Navy hook on the back—which we didn't need in the Air Force, but they had it anyway—McNamara (Robert McNamara) and Lyndon Johnson decided the Air Force was gonna have that. But my wing ops officer, Colonel Pattillo, Cuthbert Pattillo (Cuthbert A. Pattillo), who retired as a four-star general—three-star—he couldn't he couldn't tolerate having it. He didn't like it. It was gonna be a terrible airplane to fight the Russians over the clouds as they invaded through the Fulda Gap. And we couldn't run away because we gotta stay there. Our life expectancy at Hahn, if they'd ever invaded through the Fulda Gap, those of us that were left at Hahn was 20 minutes before we'd been vaporized. Our pilots used to practice in the F-4 and in the F-100s with a patch over one eye, 'cause each one, each pilot at Hahn had a target in the east. He'd never been there, of course, never seen it. He'd studied it on maps. So he knew to fly this road, that ridge line, that river, whatever it took to get to that spot, drop his ordinance and then be lucky if he ever made it back out. Only about 2% of our fighters in the 50th attack fighter wing (the 50th Wing) were ever expected to make it out. And if they did, they had a patch over one eye because with all the atomic weapons going off, their only way out is the good eye that was under the patch. And then there would be no airfields left in West Germany, because in 20 minutes we were all gonna be vaporized, 'cause every airfield, civilian and military was targeted. That they would just fly as far west as they could till they ran outta gas and the motor quit and then eject. 00:49:40.074 --> 00:49:49.324 What message would you want to leave for future generations who may watch or hear this interview? 00:49:49.324 --> 00:51:04.514 Well It's hard to say. Just that, if we don't know history and we don't study our history, we're bound to repeat it. So if this does anything to tell the younger generation—like I've told my granddaughter this stuff, I want her to always remember—that whatever land we think is ours is only ours as long as we're strong enough to keep it. If you look at the maps of the world, there's been so many changes of ownership on land over the centuries that we're only here as long as we're strong enough to keep it. Somebody else is gonna grab it if we get weak. And that's the thing I want to tell 'em. Patriotism is number one in my book. I try to promote patriotism with a younger generation. I belong to an organization in the Masons (Freemasonry) that is dedicated to that. And that's what I want to do. Try to promote patriotism and keep this country as strong or stronger than it is now forever. 00:51:04.514 --> 00:51:10.114 What do you wish more people understood about veterans? 00:51:10.114 --> 00:52:24.385 Well, there are two kinds of veterans. There are those that are drafted and those that go in on their own. I have—those that go in on their own, go in for a reason—their own personal reason. They want to, like I did. Those that are drafted—I don't say that they're not good. Some of 'em realize that this is the best thing they ever did in their life, and others don't. But it's hard to say. It's an individual thing. Like my brother-in-law. He's a year younger than I am. He was drafted into the army right outta college. I told him when he went in, I says, "With your college degree, why don't you become an officer?" "No, I don't wanna do that." Okay, it's your decision. You could have. But he's suffering now with Agent Orange so bad that I don't—from Vietnam—that I don't think he's gonna live much longer. I just went up to see him about a week and a half, two weeks ago, and he can barely move. He's in such bad shape. And—but yet he's proud of being in the military. He's glad he did it, even with the Agent Orange that he got in Vietnam. 00:52:24.385 --> 00:52:33.914 If you were to reflect on the journey of your service, what themes or life lessons emerge? 00:52:33.914 --> 00:53:31.505 Well, that's a good question. Patriotism, like I just mentioned. This is the best country in the world—the world has ever seen—and I thoroughly believe that. We have our problems, but we're still the best country that ever existed on the face of the earth. And it's all a personal—whether you join the military or not, we have good presidents and bad presidents, and we have good leadership and bad leadership from time to time. But generally, we gotta do the best we can to keep this country the way it is—and better—and stronger. And otherwise somebody will take it over on us. Sure as hell. 00:53:31.505 --> 00:53:39.000 So how did you become connected with San Diego County? Is this where you chose to come back after your time in Europe? 00:53:39.000 --> 00:54:24.135 Yeah, I—before I left Germany, before I got a release from active duty, I contacted the education center here in San Diego County, 'cause my parents still lived here, and my sister was living here, and a lot of all my friends were. My wife is an Air Force brat. She didn't have any long time friends. She'd lived three years here, three years there, three years all over the world and didn't have any real ties to any particular place. So yes, I came back here because this is where I was offered a job before I ever left the Air Force, teaching the high school industrial arts up here in North County. 00:54:24.135 --> 00:54:25.000 Thank you again for sharing your story. 00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:26.611 (Shaffer laughs.) 00:54:26.611 --> 00:54:28.735 It's an honor to help preserve it. 00:54:28.735 --> 00:54:31.000 Thank you. Was that okay? 00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:32.500 Yeah, you're good. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the 
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 ; numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ShafferDavid_BeyerJason_2025-11-20.xml ShafferDavid_BeyerJason_2025-11-20.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19
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Title
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Shaffer, David. Interview November 20th, 2025
Description
An account of the resource
Captain David Shaffer served in Europe as an air traffic controller during the 1960s. Shaffer was raised in San Diego County where his father was an engineer for Convair. From a young age, Shaffer aspired to become a military pilot, a goal which his tall height prevented. As an air traffic controller, Shaffer spent most of his deployment in Portugal and West Germany during the Cold War. He designed forward airfields during the 1967 Arab–Israeli war, although the conflict was over before they could be used. After leaving military service, Shaffer taught high school industrial arts in North San Diego County. He used the G.I. Bill to gain his master’s degree from San Diego State College and his private pilot license. In this oral history interview, Shaffer tells stories from his military service and reflects on the importance of patriotism.
Identifier
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SC027-095
Date
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2025-11-20
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video
Creator
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David Shaffer
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Jason Beyer
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
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David Shaffer
Is Part Of
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San Diego Veterans History Initiative
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States. Air Force
Cold War
Consolidated Aircraft Corporation
Convair
Victory over Japan Day
Fort Bliss (Tex.)
San Diego State University
Keesler Air Force Base (Miss.)
United States. Army Corps of Engineers
Six-Day War
Sinai Peninsula
Lajes Field (Azores)
Strategic Air Command (U.S.)
Hahn Air Base (Germany)
Lackland Air Force Base (Tex.)
United States. Federal Aviation Administration
Tinker Air Force Base (Okla.)
Bundesanstalt für Flugsicherung (Germany)
World War, 1939–1945
United States. Air Force—Occupational specialties
Davis–Monthan Air Force Base (Ariz.)
McGuire Air Force Base (N.J.)
Ramstein Air Base (Germany)
Hitler-Jugend
European Recovery Program (1948–1952)
Servicemen’s Readjustment Act of 1944
Andrews Air Force Base (Md.)
United States. Department of Veterans Affairs
McClellan–Palomar Airport (Calif.)
Germany. Luftwaffe
Mikoyan (Firm)
Sukhoi (Firm)
Johnson, Lyndon B. (Lyndon Baines), 1908–1973
Fulda Gap (Germany)
Freemasons
Agent Orange
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Europe
Colorado Springs (Colo.)
Colorado
San Diego (Calif.)
California
Texas
Philippines
Pennsylvania
Cortez (Colo.)
Shelter Island (San Diego, Calif.)
Azores (Portugal)
Portugal
Germany
San Diego County (Calif.)
San Antonio (Tex.)
Oklahoma City (Okla.)
Tucson (Ariz.)
Arizona
Mississippi
New Jersey
Israel
Middle East
Austria
Bavaria
Kastellaun (Germany)
Koblenz (Germany)
Libya
Africa, North
United States
Winston-Salem (N.C.)
North Carolina
Iowa
Vietnam
Berlin (Germany)
Frankfurt (Germany)
Berlin (Germany : West)
Germany (East)
Germany (West)
Soviet Union
Garmisch-Partenkirchen (Germany)
Kitzbühel (Austria)
Zweibrücken (Germany)
Moscow (Russia)
Munich (Germany)
Philadelphia (Pa.)
Ohio
New Zealand
Australia
France
Canada
Carlsbad (Calif.)
Fallbrook (Calif.)
Arkansas
San Diego Veterans History Initiative
Veteran experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/7dcf86c4fe6bc8b429316d83d49b9a41.mp4
4b944af44d5690584c9a4c8d3ca857cd
Dublin Core
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Title
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Oral history of David Taitingfong, August 30, 2024
Description
An account of the resource
David Taitingfong is a member of the Chamorro community and involved with the group Prugraman Sinipok, which teaches a two week Chamorro language immersion program. David describes his involvement with Prugraman Sinipok and how his interest in sharing the Chamorro lanugage and culture has shaped his life.
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David Taitingfong
Contributor
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Robert Sheehan
Date
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2024-08-30
Subject
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Language revival
Chamorro language
Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History
Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs
Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania
Colonization -- Japan
Colonization -- United States -- Guam
Decolonization -- Guam
Coverage
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Guam, United States
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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This interview is conducted in English and Chamorro
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en"><strong>In copyright</strong></a>
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David Taitingfong
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https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/
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Audio file
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TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_2024-08-30
Is Part Of
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community history
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f1954c51e658c7c1490af7202f3dbde2.pdf
5ca2c1981c17983bb5b3e2fb65211dd5
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Title
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Transcripts
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Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
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Title
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Taitingfong, David. Interview Transcript August 30th, 2024.
Description
An account of the resource
David Taitingfong is a member of the Chamorro community and involved with the group Prugraman Sinipok, which teaches a two week Chamorro language immersion program. David describes his involvement with Prugraman Sinipok and how his interest in sharing the Chamorro lanugage and culture has shaped his life.
Creator
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David Taitingfong
Contributor
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Robert Sheehan
Date
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2025-07-22
Subject
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Language revival
Chamorro language
Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- History
Chamorro (Micronesian people) -- Social life and customs
Colonization -- Spain -- Oceania
Colonization -- Japan
Colonization -- United States -- Guam
Decolonization -- Guam
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English and Chamorro
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
Rights Holder
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David Taitingfong
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<a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a>
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TaitingfongDavid_SheehanRobert_2025-07-22_Transcript
Coverage
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Guam, United States
San Diego (Calif.)
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Community history
Prugraman Sinipok
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/455a10662771c3280ba9f49c86347341.pdf
095780521aed305d72a670ce8d86c848
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Title
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Transcripts
Description
An account of the resource
Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
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Title
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Doan, Dennis "Dizzy". Interview transcript, March 6, 2023
Description
An account of the resource
Dennis "Dizzy" Doan is a Vietnamese American tattoo artist, writer and philanthropist in San Diego, California. In this interview, he speaks on his family and upbringing, as well as how he got his start in the tattoo industry. Doan also shares his motivation for starting his non-profit organization, The Doan Foundation.
Creator
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Dennis "Dizzy" Doan
Contributor
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Melissa Martin
Jennifer Ho
Date
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2023-03-06
Subject
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Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Ethnic identity; Tattoo artists; Philanthropy
Coverage
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San Diego (Calif.); Vietnam
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a>
Rights Holder
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Dennis Doan
Format
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text
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DoanDennis_HoJennifer_2023-03-06_transcript
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Children of Refugees
-
Dublin Core
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Title
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Oral Histories
Description
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Rights
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jennifer Ho
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Dennis "Dizzy" Doan
OHMS Object
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DoanDennis_HoJennifer_2023-03-06_access.xml
Interview Keyword
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Vietnamese American identity;tattoo artistry;philanthropy;immigration;community
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
6.0 Doan, Dennis "Dizzy". Interview March 6, 2023. SC027-110 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. csusm Vietnamese American identity ; tattoo artistry ; philanthropy ; immigration ; community Dennis "Dizzy" Doan Jennifer Ho moving image DoanDennis_HoJennifer_2023-03-06_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/30cd38c20fdc6dece2f45114880a90f4.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Dennis “Dizzy” Doan, March 6, 2023, by Jennifer Ho. 0 27 Growing up and family life Dennis talks about his childhood growing up in Linda Vista (San Diego), and describes his family, including his brother’s significant role in his upbringing. Saginaw, Michigan ; Saigon ; Danang, Vietnam ; Orange County ; Section 8 housing ; Kung Fu ; Chinese lion dancing ; City Heights ; Mira Mesa ; Pho Hoa ; Pho Hoa Hiep ; Vien Dong ; Thuan Phat ; Rite Aid ; Thrifty ; University of San Diego ; Kearny High Schol ; Scripps Ranch High School ; Montomery Middle School ; Taft Middle School ; Sharp Hospital 0 1031 Mom and brother Dennis talks about the departure of his mother and his brother when he was young, and why they left, as well as the effect their departure had on him. alcoholism ; Washington, D.C. ; hunger ; Costco ; KFC 0 1596 Life lessons and starting out as a tattoo artist In this segment, Dennis shares the lesson he has learned about dependency, and how it has carried him through a successful career. He reflects on early days of learning how to run a business. Dennis shares the story of how he became a tattoo artist, first as a teenager working from his home and then as a business partner before opening his own studio. business venture ; U.S. Marshalls ; Mission Valley Mall ; Michael's ; Louis Vuitton ; Criagslist ; MySpace ; Baby Bash ; Peckerwoods ; Aryan Brotherhood ; Linda Vista ; Kearny Mesa ; Clairemont Mesa Boulevard ; Absolute Tattoo ; Chula Vista ; City Heights, Asian Business Center ; Black Lotus 0 2923 Black Lotus Tattoo & ; Social Club Dennis talks about his third and current shop, Black Lotus. health inspectors 0 3031 Education and career goals In this segment, Dennis discusses his time in grade school and at San Diego State University, and his career objectives at the time. AP English ; Emily Walker ; Asian Studies ; the Philippines 0 3486 Family and community responses Dennis talks about his family’s reaction to him dropping out of school and becoming a tattoo artist. He shares the story of how they found out he had tattoos. He also talks about the response from the Vietnamese community and tattooing community. Vietnamese Boy Scouts ; Vietnamese lion dancing ; Asian tattoo artists 0 3799 Hate is a Virus Dennis talks about “Hate is a Virus,” the project that brought him a windfall of attention during Covid. Covid-19 ; Pennsylvania ; Temple University 0 4195 Vietnam and relationship with Mom Dennis discusses his past trips to Vietnam and the first time his mom saw his tattoos. He talks about his relationship with her and with his family. Taipei ; traditional Vietnamese family 0 4563 Vietnamese identity Dennis talks about whether he identifies as a Vietnamese or American person, and how this is influenced by where someone grows up. He also talks about how people see him. Orange County ; Napa Valley ; San Jose ; Montana ; Filipinos ; Tagalog ; Chinese ; City Heights ; Chinese lion dance ; Tet 0 4767 Ambition and fatherly relationship Dennis talks about the time of day he is most productive. He discusses his motivation and ambition, and how his mother is similar. He also talks about his relationship with his father and how it has evolved through the years. Mira Mesa ; lion dance ; Vietnamese Student Association ; University of California San Diego 0 5583 Asian and Black community relationships Dennis discusses the relationship between the Asian and Black communities. He also talks about his foundation’s service to people of any race, and the competition for funding between Vietnamese-serving non-profits. George Floyd ; non-profit organizations ; City Heights ; Orange County ; San Diego ; Utah 0 6028 The Doan Foundation The Doan Foundation
 ; Dennis talks about the Doan Foundation, including how he got it started, its accomplishments and his vision for its future. 
 ; Thao Ha ; educational scholarships ; Multicultural Fair ; Linda Vista ; Convoy district ; Asian Pacific Islander Coalition ; Cross Street Chicken and Beer ; Nguyet Pham ; Viet Vote ; Oceanside Southern California API Festival ; Ronald McDonald House Charities 0 7006 Changes in the tattoo industry Dennis talks about how the tattoo industry has evolved. He discusses changes in technical skills, opportunity and exposure. He also discusses the role of apprenticeships. tattoo technology ; portfolio ; YouTube ; mentoring ; U.S. Navy 0 7378 Values and mentorship Dennis discusses his values as a mentor, as well as how he stays focused and grounded in all of his ventures. He also talks about how he declines customer ideas for bad tattoos. growth ; problem solving ; tattoo styles ; time management ; customer service 0 7853 Speaking truth and meeting expectations Dennis talks about speaking with openness and truth, including the mental process involved in writing his memoir. He discusses his need to meet the high expectations he has for himself and how that was instilled in him by his brother. philanthropy ; writing ; community 0 8453 Work ethic, culture and the future Dennis talks about his consistent work ethic, the pride he feels in creating his non-profit, and the difficulty of maintaining one’s culture. He talks about his new granddaughter and what he wants for her future. financial education ; language loss ; diversity ; Balboa Park ; AAPI movement ; Black pride 0 9013 Jobs and careers for students Dennis shares his vision of creating a career fair in which students learn about careers that are not normally discussed. He also talks about his brother’s work at the Linda Vista Public Library and reminisces on minimum wage in the mid-1990s. employment and careers ; libraries 0 Oral history Dennis "Dizzy" Doan is a Vietnamese American tattoo artist, writer and philanthropist in San Diego, California. In this interview, he speaks on his family and upbringing, as well as how he got his start in the tattoo industry. Doan also shares his motivation for starting his non-profit organization, The Doan Foundation.
 ; NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:27.000 All right. (Claps.) Today is March 6th, 2023. This is Jennifer Ho, and I’m interviewing Dennis “Dizzy” Đoàn (Dennis “Dizzy” Doan) for the Children of Refugees, the Vietnamese American Oral History Project. Thanks for being with me today, Dennis. How are you doing? (both laugh) All right. Let’s just start. (both laugh) Tell me when and where you were born. 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:31.000 I was born in 1990, in Saginaw, Michigan. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:33.000 And what brought your family to Michigan? 00:00:33.000 --> 00:01:55.000 Um, my uncle at the time, my uncle was just coming over here from Việt Nam (Vietnam). He had worked for Vietnamese Intelligence in the past. He was my dad’s oldest brother. And I guess my family finally made the leap. Because they stayed there during the aftermath of the war, which it was really surprising for me to learn that, because a lot of people left during the war, immediately after. But my grandma was a Vietnam War nurse. So, my dad’s whole family from Đà Nẵng (Da Nang) eventually went to Sài Gòn (Saigon) to pretty much be close to my mom’s family because my mom is from Saigon. So, I guess things were more peaceful there. Because they were pretty much getting hunted up there in Da Nang. My dad’s dad was a police captain for the South, who often went to the North to infiltrate their military. So, he was in prison pretty much most of his life. So, my dad was raised by his stepdad. So, it’s a crazy family timeline because my dad has like four stepdads and he’s the middle child. So, all his siblings after, they’re the only ones who have the same dad, who I grew up thinking was my paternal grandfather. But I found out he wasn’t later. So— 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:57.000 When did you find out? 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:40.000 I—Well, I grew up knowing I had a ông ngoại (ong ngoai, maternal grandfather) and I had two ông nộis (ong noi, paternal grandfathers, Vietlish), but I didn’t know why, you know what I mean? There was ong noi Chan (note: spelling is unknown) , which was—We went to go see him like once in a blue moon. He lived in Orange County. But my regular ong noi, who I refer to as he basically raised me, you know, and that was my dad’s stepdad. But I didn’t know that until later on. And I was like “Okay. So, that’s why I have two grandpas on dad’s side.” Because, you know, my dad was pretty much estranged from his real father. But we still, you know, we still went to go see him and visit and see if he was okay and what not. Because he came over here later, like ’94, ’95 or something. Yeah. 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:46.000 Okay. How did you find out about your two ong nois? 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:47.000 Well, just eavesdropping— (laughs) 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:48.000 Oh really? 00:02:48.000 --> 00:03:13.000 —on the family. No, because my brother—I mean, my brother was there for all that. He’s twelve years older than me. So, he was twelve when they came here to America. So, listening to him talk to my mom, here and there, I finally kind of put two and two together. As I grew up, I understood more of like the dynamic of, you know, marriage and things like that. Divorce, separation. Yeah. 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:20.000 Yeah. Okay. Thank you. So, tell me about your family and the people who raised you. 00:03:20.000 --> 00:04:13.000 My parents—Well, my brother actually was the one who pretty much raised me. Because my parents were always working. When they first came here, my mom worked as a seamstress for a little bit. And then went on to do nails like every other Vietnamese mom. My dad was going to school for a little bit to learn enough English just to get around, and then from there he went on to work as, it was like doing assembly line stuff for a hardware company, which he’s still there today. Yeah. But they were gone usually from eight to eight every day. So, my brother would be back and forth. Sometimes, he would have to take me to work with him. Sometimes, he’d take me to school with him. But, yeah, it was pretty much me and him for most of my life until he left when I was about twelve years old to go to medical school. 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:17.000 Wow. Okay. So, was this in Michigan? Or in San Diego? 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:24.000 No, it was in San Diego. Yeah, we came to San Diego in, I think, like 1991, right after I was born. 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:26.000 Oh. Okay. So, you were just a baby. 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:45.000 Yeah, because my grandma had a sister in here, and then she had family in Orange County as well. So, they decided to come here because the climate was a lot more similar to Vietnam, and, you know, Michigan’s crazy. It has crazy weather. So, yeah. So, that’s why they over here and settled here. 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:48.000 Okay. Have you been to Michigan? 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:49.000 Nope. (chuckles) 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:53.000 Okay. Okay. I was going to ask you how you think you would have been different if you were raised there. 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:59.000 Well, I hear stories. I mean, my brother and my cousin, they were the only minorities at their whole school. 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:00.000 Yeah. 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:01.000 Yeah. (chuckles) 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:02.000 Like the only minorities, period. 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:03.000 Period. Yeah. 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:04.000 Oh, wow! Okay. Was it like— 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:08.000 Everyone else was white. Yeah, and some Blacks, some Black people. But that’s it. 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:11.000 Okay. Was it like a suburb, suburban area? 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:12.000 I don’t know. I don’t know. 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:13.000 Okay. You were a baby, so— 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:15.000 Yeah. Yeah. 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:23.000 —okay. Okay. Cool. So, you were raised primarily by your brother because your parents were at work a lot. 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:25.000 Yes. 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:35.000 Can you tell me more about your childhood? Like what did you do for fun? What did you eat? Who prepared your meals? Who were your friends? Like what comes to mind when you think about your childhood? 00:05:35.000 --> 00:07:14.000 Um, my childhood was, I think it was good. Because I was surrounded by a lot of family, in regards to - I had a lot of cousins that came here from Vietnam. They ended up living with us for a while. And I had cousins from France that would come every summer and hang out. It was very diversified, you know. My friends—I had Mexican friends, Black friends, white friends, whatever. Because when you’re young, you don’t really think about, you know, differentiation in that regard, you know. Um, but pretty much I was either playing outside or I was in the house building something with cardboard boxes, you know. We were poor so we didn’t have too much. I guess at the time I didn’t realize how poor we were. But you don’t really have anything to compare that to. So, we appreciate it regardless, you know. Because they would take me to—After I’d get a shot, my dad would take me to go to like the 99-cent store or something, to get a toy, and I’d be like “Oh, wow!” But it was cool. I feel like back then, I guess society looked out for each other a lot more. Everyone in my apartment complex kind of looked after each other’s kids. You know, when all the kids were playing outside, there was always a parent that was kind of monitoring them. Whenever I didn’t have a key to get into the house, I would just go downstairs to the manager’s office, and they would just come up and open it for me. We could leave our doors unlocked. It was more of a community. Nowadays, everyone’s kind of scared of everything and, you know, parents are overprotective because, you know, everything going on in the world. So, yeah. Things were a lot different, I guess you could say. 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:25.000 Okay. I want to hear more about your apartment complex. Like that’s a really—It sounds like a really tight-knit community. So, how did you—Were they other Vietnamese people? Or— 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:48.000 No. It was everybody. I mean, the only thing everyone had in common was we were all pretty—on Section 8. Pretty much, you know. So, we looked out for each other. Yeah, so a little bit of everybody. People would—I had kids come to my house and I’d go to their house. There was no like judgment, nothing within like our little community, you know. It’s like a big melting pot, pretty much. 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:49.000 That’s nice. 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:56.000 Yeah. So, what else? I was going to talk about something else. (chuckles) 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:59.000 Um, your neighbors, community, looking out for each other. 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:11.000 Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, we used to play outside. I’d play football and whatnot. My brother would only let me play outside for one hour a day. So, I had to, you know, make the best of it. (chuckles) 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:13.000 Why did he only let you play outside for an hour? 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:27.000 Well, he was a little more strict than my parents even were. Because they wanted me to focus on my homework, studying. I didn’t get to watch TV for more than an hour a day. And I didn’t get to play outside for more than one hour a day. Yeah. (laughs) 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:29.000 Wow. Okay. 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:46.000 Yep. It was pretty wild, like the way that he basically molded me. I mean, it’s good. Looking back on it, it helped me develop into who I am discipline-wise. At the time, you know, I hated it. So— 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:47.000 Yeah. Of course. 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:52.000 Yeah. But I’d always try to get around it. You remember how the TVs back then were like glass? 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:53.000 Yeah. 00:08:53.000 --> 00:09:06.000 With a giant tube? So, whenever he was gone, I’d always try to sneak in like some cartoons or something, and he’d always come home and he’d be like, “Oh, you were watching TV, huh?” And I’d be like, “No.” But, you know, there’s like static on there. The whole thing is hot. 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:07.000 It’s warm. Mm-hmm. 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:28.000 But when you’re little, you don’t think about that. So, he knows. I was like, “Man, this guy knows everything.” So, when I played outside too, if I’m sweating or whatever, he’ll know. But yeah. He was just—he wanted me on the right path, I guess you could say. He didn’t want me to get the wrong influences around me. Yeah. 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:35.000 So, it sounds like your brother might have had some of that kind of fear, I guess you could say, that we have today as parents. 00:09:35.000 --> 00:10:12.000 Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s because he had two worlds to compare to each other, like his life in Vietnam versus life here. And he’s seen like the worst in humanity in both places, you know? So, he just wanted to protect me from that. He used to teach Kung Fu, and Chinese Lion Dancing at the library, because he worked there, and he also ran that program for them. And he would never allow any of his students to cuss around me. And they couldn’t talk about like bad things, all those types. So, he’s very, very protective, you know. 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:13.000 Wow! 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:16.000 Yeah. 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:19.000 Um, and what neighborhood did you grow up in, in San Diego? 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:20.000 I grew up in Linda Vista. 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:20.000 In Linda Vista. Okay. 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:45.000 So, at the time, in the early ‘90s, that’s where like all the Vietnamese people were. Pretty much. It was like its own little community. There’s the Vietnamese market there. The first Vietnamese restaurants were there. There and City Heights were kind of blooming at the same time. And it’s only later that it started to work its way up to Mira Mesa. Yeah. 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:58.000 Okay. So, tell me like what are some of the places you would go in Linda Vista? Like what restaurants would you go to or what little shops or like playgrounds? 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:05.000 There’s Phở Hòa (Pho Hoa). We used to go there a lot. I used to go to the thrift store a lot, which is not there anymore. 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:07.000 Is the phở (pho) place there still? 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:10.000 The pho place is still there. My dad’s friend actually owns it now . 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:11.000 Okay. So, a different ownership. 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:24.000 Yeah. Yeah. There’s a place called Phở Hòa Hiểp (Pho Hoa Hiep). That’s still there. Viễn Đông Supermarket (Vien Dong Supermarket), which is now Thuận Phát Supermarket (Thuan Phat Supermarket) is there. Yeah. And then Rite-Aid used to be Thrifty. 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:25.000 Right! 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:34.000 And there’s a bunch of little Vietnamese gift shops there, to buy like cheap clothes and whatnot. But we were at the thrift store a lot. I remember that. 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:36.000 Okay. Why was that? 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:39.000 That’s where we got all the clothes and everything. Yep. 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:40.000 Okay. The thrift store’s not there anymore, you said. 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:54.000 No. It’s not. It’s—I don’t know what it is now, actually. There’s a supermarket in front of it, and then I think it’s like some type of freaking—they’re turning it into some type of plaza or something. It was a big, big thrift store. 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:57.000 Is it in the same shopping center as the Vien Dong was? 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:00.000 No. It’s like kind of across the street. 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:01.000 Okay. 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:08.000 On the side. I know they’re building apartments over there now, too. They’re gentrifying the whole area because it’s close to USD (University of San Diego) . 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:09.000 Okay. 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:15.000 So, you know, prices are skyrocketing. It used to be like the ghetto. Now, there’s homes that are selling for 1.2 mill. 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:22.000 Wow. In Linda Vista. That’s hard to imagine. And does your dad still live there? 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:24.000 No, he lives in Mira Mesa now. 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:25.000 Okay. 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:58.000 Yeah. Well, when I was—Until the age of four, I was growing up in like the really bad side of Linda Vista. But my mom got so tired of it. I remember she and I ended up walking around the whole neighborhood and then we walked like an hour, forty-five minutes to an hour, towards the other direction, like the beginning of Linda Vista on the other end. And she finally found an apartment complex that she thought was okay. And that’s the one that I’m referring to when I talk about the community and everything. 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:02.000 Okay. Is that apartment building still there? 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:03.000 Yeah. It’s still there. It’s called Mesa Vista. 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:05.000 Mesa Vista. 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:06.000 Yeah. 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:09.000 Okay. Do you know if any of your old neighbors still live there? 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:13.000 Mmm, one of them do, that I know of. She’s my client, too, so— 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:14.000 Oh, okay. 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:15.000 Yeah. (chuckles) 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:17.000 Is that how she found you? Or was it a coincidence? 00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:53.000 So, I lived there for a while. I lived there until I was maybe, I think, seventeen, seventeen or eighteen. And I moved. I moved to Mira Mesa, and then I eventually came back again. So, that’s when I met that neighbor. Because my car actually got hit behind her house, or her apartment. So, when my car got hit, she contacted one of my friends that lived in the apartment. And they contacted me. And then that whole thing got resolved. But that’s how I met her. And, you know, it’s been cool since. She’s been my client ever since. 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:55.000 Okay. Good. 00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:57.000 Yeah. Everything kind of connects. It’s weird. 00:13:57.000 --> 00:14:04.000 Yeah. Yeah. I’ve noticed that too. Okay. And where did you go to high school? 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:05.000 Kearny High School. 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:11.000 Okay. Any good memories there? Or any memories at all? Did you do okay? 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:17.000 I wasn’t supposed to go there. My brother was actually really adamant on me going to Scripps. 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:18.000 Scripps? 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:19.000 Ranch. Scripps Ranch. 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:20.000 Oh. Okay. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:37.000 Yeah. Because he went there. He was the first full graduating class of Scripps Ranch. Back then, they used to, you know, bus them from Linda Vista up to there. Because they had like their magnet program and all that. But I don’t know. I just—It wasn’t for me. Freshmen year of—huh? 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:38.000 What wasn’t for you? 00:14:38.000 --> 00:15:24.000 Just like traveling back and forth. You know, yeah. And I was already—I felt like I was distancing myself from my neighborhood when I moved to the other side of Linda Vista, you know? If I was to go to school in a totally different area, then it would be worse. It was kind of a weird dynamic. Because you had the really hood-hood kids on one side and, you know, you had to earn your respect from those kids if you were like anywhere else in the area. You know what I mean? 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.000 So, you were one of those hood-hood kids and then you left. 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:28.000 Yes. Yes. 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:30.000 Okay. So, did people look at you differently after you left? 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:39.000 Yes. So, when I went to middle school, I had to go back to that neighborhood. Yeah. Because it was on the other side, by Vien Dong and stuff. 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:41.000 Okay. What’s the name of that school? 00:15:41.000 --> 00:16:38.000 Montgomery Middle School. Mm-hmm. So, I had to—you know, I would to go to my cousin’s house who lived nearby in the morning. I would walk to school, and then after school, I walked to my cousin’s and then I’d get picked up and go home. Yeah. Because if I was to walk home, it’d take me an hour. Right? So, I’d have to wait for my dad to pick me up. But yeah. It was different. Yeah. I kept going back and forth, mentally, in terms of how, like survival mode versus non-survival mode. Because when I went to school in the nice area, the elementary school there, everything was great. There was a mixture of kids and everything. And then I’d go to this school and there was nothing but gangs and, you know, it’s like all minorities. There’s no balance of anything. And the teachers, they didn’t really care because they were kind of fed up with everything. There was, there were girls that were twelve years old, pregnant. All kinds of stuff. Yeah. So, it was a different shift. 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:44.000 Okay. So, I’m kind of—Was there a middle school in your new area? Is that why you had to go to Montgomery? 00:16:44.000 --> 00:17:06.000 I lived in a weird—like there was weird boundaries. So, I couldn’t—There was a school in Clairemont called Taft that was, you know, zoned differently or something. So, all the people that lived kind of like by Sharp Hospital or something would go to Taft, but my side had to go to Montgomery. 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:11.000 Okay. I was going to say I’m kind of surprised that your mom left that neighborhood only for you to have to come back to school. 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:22.000 Yeah. Well, my mom actually left when I was twelve, too. So, that changed the whole dynamic of everything as well. 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:25.000 Okay. So, your brother left and then she left. 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.000 Yep. They both kind of left at the same time. 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:29.000 Okay. Was that related? 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:44.000 No. Well, yes and no. My dad was an alcoholic for most of my life. So, I guess, well, my brother had to leave because he went to medical school. And then my mom left soon after that because she was just fed up, you know. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:45.000 With? 00:17:45.000 --> 00:19:20.000 With my dad’s alcoholism and, you know, verbally abusiveness and physical. And I guess she thought at the time that I was finally old enough to understand or something? So, you know, yeah, I remember because she usually stays home on Mondays. So, there was one Monday I walked home from school. And she usually cooks me like some random dish on Mondays so when I get home, I could eat it. And she’ll go do her errands or something. But that day I walked in, and I didn’t see anybody. So, I was like “What’s going on?” So, I went to her room, and I didn’t see anyone there. And I went to her closet. And I didn’t see any of her clothes. So, I was like, “Okay, maybe she went to Vietnam and forgot to tell me or something.” So, I walked to—I tried calling her and she wouldn’t pick up. And I walked to her best friend’s house which was in the same apartment complex as well, about like three, four doors down. And she opened the door, and I asked her. I’m like “Oh, where’s my mom?” And she’s like “Oh, I don’t know. I haven’t heard from her.” I’m like “Okay.” So, I went back, and I called my brother. I’m like, “Dude, where’s mom?” And he was like “I don’t know. What happened?” And I was like “I don’t know. No one’s here. And all her stuff is gone.” And he was like “Okay.” So, I was just sitting there, not knowing what was going on. And then, of course, my dad went drinking that night, right? So, when he came back, I was kind of freaking out because, you know, he was going to get mad and then go crazy. But, you know, he was so drunk when he got back, he didn’t even realize she was gone, ‘til the next morning. 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:21.000 Wow. 00:19:21.000 --> 00:20:28.000 Yeah. Yep. So, next morning, I talked to him. He was like “Where’s your mom?” And I’m like “I have no clue.” But she didn’t contact me until maybe three weeks later to tell me that she moved to Washington, D.C., or something—I think it was D.C. at the time, yeah. And then she asked me to come with her or to go over there. And in my mind, that would have been the easier thing to do because, you know, my dad’s great but he has no clue what he’s doing when it comes to being like a single parent, you know. Because I was with my mom most of the time. So, I told her, I’m like “I want to, but I don’t think I can. Because if I do, like dad’s not going to have anything left and then he’s just going to, you know, that’s going to be the end for him, you know what I mean?” So, I’m like “I’ll just take it, and I’ll stay.” So, I stayed and, you know, he was going through his depression for a while. Like at that age, you know, he would go to work, come back, drink. He would just do the same thing every day. He barely ate —He would eat like a little bit of pho every night, some chips or something. And then just drink, you know. And when I’d get home—It came out on paper they weren’t separated or anything. So, you know, we were still paying like full amount of rent or whatnot, with the Section 8. I had to lie to my grandparents and my whole family. I had to tell them that my mom went to go work somewhere else for, temporarily, to get money or something. So, I had to lie to them for like six, seven years. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:21:00.000 Wow! To your ong noi and bà nội (ba noi, paternal grandmother)? 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:06.000 Mm-hmm. So, that’s how long my dad tried to hide it. My grandma wasn’t dumb though. She was still—she was only like seventy at the time. 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.000 And they were nearby? 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:42.000 They were—At the time, they were. They eventually moved back to Orange County. But they knew. Because my mom was close to them, too, you know. And she talked to them eventually. But my dad’s youngest sister was the one who knew like everything because my mom was really close to her. And she was the one housing my brother while he was in medical school, as well. So, you know, he was working. He was doing what he could. You know, he would give me maybe like twenty bucks a week or something. Because he wasn’t—He didn’t cook anymore. He didn’t do anything, you know. So, most of those days were spent me coming home from school and he would be like just “Oh, just find something to eat.” And I’m like “Okay.” (chuckles) 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:45.000 What would you find? 00:21:45.000 --> 00:23:04.000 Nothing. I just—Just whatever. It’s like I used to, you know—Me and my friend would go to like the—I knew that KFC threw out their food at night, at the end of the night. So, I had a friend that worked there, so she would give me some of the food. And I used to steal food from 7-11 all the time. I used to just go to my cousin’s house and act like everything’s cool. I didn’t want to make my dad look bad either. So, I couldn’t, you know, scavenge all their food. But my aunt eventually—My dad’s sister eventually like caught on. And every time I’d go up there to see my brother for the weekend, she would just go to Costco and just buy me a bunch of stuff so I could take it home. And, you know, she was the only one that really like knew what was going on. Because my mom would tell her everything was cool. Every day—I mean, she was calling me pretty often and she would be like “Oh, did you eat today?” And I’d be like “yeah, I did.” Or whatever. But yeah. It was an interesting time. Because I couldn’t—I was trying not to make anyone look bad, you know what I mean? But I was suffering while I was doing it, you know. Because when I would go to my cousin’s house in the morning, I was so hungry, but I couldn’t eat too much or else they would know something’s going on. But yeah, I couldn’t say anything. 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:06.000 That’s a lot for a twelve-year-old to carry. 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:10.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:15.000 So, how did this affect your schooling? Like I bet you were hungry when you went to school. 00:23:15.000 --> 00:24:04.000 Well, I used to take—Well, I had a free lunch. So, I would go there for a lunch, breakfast. Sometimes, I would take the food home with me. And people would give me food if they weren’t eating it or whatever. I’d put it in my backpack and just save it for later, you know. But I don’t think it affected me as much because most of the kids around me were going through similar things. You know what I mean? Like I had a friend—me and him, whenever we could find like fifty cents, we would put it together, get one like of those chicken snacker at KFC. At that time, it was a dollar. So, we’d get that, and we’d split it or something, you know. But yeah, we were going through the same things. So, maybe I didn’t feel like it was as significant because of that. But now, looking back, obviously you’re like “Oh. That was pretty bad.” (chuckles) 00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:06.000 Yeah. It didn’t hit you until later. 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:10.000 Uh-huh. Yeah. Because there was nothing to compare it to. You know what I mean? 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:12.000 Yeah. Yeah. It was just your life. 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:14.000 Yeah. 00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:18.000 So, have you like worked through all of that, like emotionally? 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:19.000 I think so. 00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:20.000 Have you been to therapy? 00:24:20.000 --> 00:25:03.000 It took me a long time to get over the whole not having mom around thing. I was—It was kind of like a self-therapy that I went through. I was with a lot of different women in my life because, you know, I tried to fill that void. But there was, you know, at one point, I was like okay. I need—I had to analyze what was really going on. I had to analyze what I wanted and what I needed and why I needed it, you know? And, yeah, as I grew up and my career bloomed and I had something else to focus on, I was able to reflect more on it and kind of dissect it and kind of finally make peace with it, you know what I mean? 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:04.000 Have you made peace with it? 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:22.000 Yeah. Yeah. That’s why I started writing my book and everything. It’s finally time to like go back and kind of pinpoint those things and analyze it while I’m writing so that, you know, the next person who’s going through the same thing can, you know, take something from it. 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:26.000 Yeah. Is there anybody that’s helping you analyze? 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:27.000 Mmm, no. 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:29.000 Okay. It’s just you with your thoughts. 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:33.000 I have a crazy brain. So— (chuckles) 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:34.000 Okay. Tell me more about that. 00:25:34.000 --> 00:26:22.000 Just I just feel like I met so many different people as a tattoo artist. And I’ve helped them through so much. And I’ve also learned a lot through them and their mistakes as well. So, I’ve lived through everyone else’s mistakes as well as my own. And I’ve gained the knowledge through all of it as well. You know what I mean? So, I don’t know. I have a weird way of reading people, certain scenarios, things. I’m very content with—I don’t know how to explain this. I’m very content with my thoughts now. I’m very content with how things are. And I’m ready to basically proceed to the next thing, you know what I mean? 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:32.000 Yeah. Okay. Wow. That’s quite a journey. So, you were in survival mode before. Do you ever feel like you’re in survival mode now? 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:35.000 I think it’s just—You mean like financially? Or— 00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:36.000 I don’t know. Anything. 00:26:36.000 --> 00:28:12.000 Oh, okay. Well, you know what. I learned at a very early age that I can’t depend on anybody. It’s good and it’s bad, you know. I’m not good at delegating. I’m not good at trusting people to do certain things with other responsibilities. So, I put all that pressure on myself. And, you know, if let’s say we want to start a business venture, I would have to know every micro detail about that business, how to run it from the taxes to the promo to the just every day, daily operations. I want to know everything. So, it’s a lot of pressure because I have to know so much that I just can’t focus on, you know, growing a company or something. So, it definitely takes longer to excel in multiple aspects of something rather than just to focus on specializing in that, you know. But it’s worth it in the end because no one can stop you, you know. If everyone were to leave—Like say you had twenty employees and they all leave, you’ll still be able to run it yourself. Versus you depending on all twenty of those people to do, to delegate something to. Whenever one piece of the puzzle is missing, you’re in panic mode, you know. So, I’ve made it a point not to put myself in that position ever again. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think just recently I figured that out. Maybe, I don’t know, five, six years ago. Yeah. 00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:15.000 And it seems like it has worked well for you. Your business seems to be successful. 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:47.000 Yeah, yeah. I’m content. I’m running things the way I want it. I had a business partner before. But I learned—That was like the last straw, where I learned that I have to do things myself, you know. Because when you don’t know where the money’s going, when you don’t know how to do one thing or another, you know, you get taken advantage of in one way or another. So, you gotta look out for yourself in that aspect. 00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:49.000 Okay. Did you get taken advantage of by your partner? 00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:54.000 Mmm, in a sense. In a sense. But I made up for it, you know what I mean? 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:55.000 What do you mean you made up for it? 00:28:55.000 --> 00:29:58.000 Well, when you’re really young and you don’t know which direction to go —I met him when I was nineteen. So, when you’re really young, you don’t know which direction to go. You kind of look, you know, you look to someone older who has experience to kind of guide you through that, you know. And sometimes you get too dependent on that person. And you end up losing sight of the amount of work one person is doing versus another. And then, if you don’t say anything, it just keeps going and going. But in your mind, you want to be loyal, and you want to be a good business partner. So, you just stay quiet, and you ride it through and hope that things will balance out eventually. But then, there comes a point where you’re working yourself to the ground and you can see that things aren’t balanced, where you gotta cut it off, you know, however painful that may be. In the long run, it’s the better option, you know, for you and for whoever is working for you. 00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:00.000 And has it been better for you after all? 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:23.000 Yeah. Yeah. Things are a lot smoother. I mean it’s always better to have one perspective and one goal, or one person’s goal, rather than multiple people, you know what I mean? It gets confusing for the business and for the people who work for the business, and the customers, you know. 00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:29.000 Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, that singular vision is really important, so you all know exactly where you’re headed. 00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:34.000 And at least if you make a mistake and you fail, you know that it’s your failure. 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:35.000 Mm-hmm. Can’t blame anyone else. 00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:37.000 Yeah. Mm-hmm. 00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:45.000 Mmm. Okay. Um, okay. There’s so, like there’s so much I want to ask you. 00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:47.000 I know. My life is a roller coaster. So, it’s everywhere. 00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:48.000 Yeah. 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:50.000 Yeah. 00:30:50.000 --> 00:31:34.000 I want to hear about your path to your career as a tattoo artist. I know you have a new, newish non-profit venture. And I want to know about that as well. But tell me about how you became a tattoo artist. 00:31:34.000 --> 01:31:05.000 Okay. So, this is going to be a long story. 01:31:05.000 --> 01:31:07.000 Okay. 01:31:07.000 --> 01:32:25.000 Um, so, you know, I grew up in like a semi-ghetto neighborhood. So, there’s a lot of guys with tattoos and whatnot walking around. And my brother’s, some of my brother’s friends have tattoos. He had none though. But, you know, they were still considered very taboo within our community at the time. Because even though we were—the Vietnamese community was in San Diego, it was still nothing but Vietnamese people there. So, they spoke Vietnamese. They had the same values, tradition, and perceptions. So, we were always taught, “Oh, this guy has tattoos. He’s no good. Probably just got out of jail,” or whatever. Things changed as I got older because we were dipping into the 2000s. And I was like, “What the heck. Like I like that. Why can’t I do it, you know?” So, when I was—Actually, when I was twelve years old, again, I decided I was going to try to give myself a tattoo (chuckles). So, I went to Michael’s. I think I went with my mom to Mission Valley Mall. I took myself to Michael’s. And I got, I just got a sewing needle and some green acrylic paint. Because I thought tattoo ink was green at the time. Remember it used to fade green? 01:32:25.000 --> 01:32:26.000 Yeah. Yeah. 01:32:26.000 --> 01:32:42.000 So, I got some dark green acrylic paint. And what else did I get? I think that’s it. I got some other solution to make that paint thinner. But I just used that, and I just carved right into me. 01:32:42.000 --> 01:32:46.000 Into yourself. Wow. What did you carve into yourself, if I may ask? 01:32:46.000 --> 01:34:45.000 Um, it was a really light Louis Vuitton logo for the “LV.” Linda Vista. Like monogram, yeah. So, that was dumb. But I did that. It was so light, though. My parents didn’t even notice it, you know. But then fast forward, when I started hanging out with like gangsters, when I was about fifteen years old, I hung out with this older guy named Đăng (Dang) who’s in Vietnam now. Because he was—The U.S. Marshals were looking for him. So, he left. But he was tattooing out of his house. He used to work at a shop. He had gotten out of prison doing like seven to ten years or something. But I used to hang out at his house a lot and my friends were there all the time. And, you know, of course I want a tattoo. So, I asked him. I wanted my back done and I was like “How much would you charge me to get my back done?” And he said “Seven hundred dollars” which is not a lot. But being fifteen years old, it’s a lot of money, you know. So, I was like, “Aw, man. I can’t afford that.” But all my friends got tattooed by him. So, I was like, “You know, I’ll just wait a little bit.” So, I had a friend from Afghanistan that came when I was in fifth grade. And we were good friends. He lived in the same apartment complex. And he used to be able to make anything, even at the age of ten, eleven. Like he made like fans, all kinds of like all the electrical stuff. Like I always messed around with him. But I asked him how I can make a tattoo machine. So, this was before like YouTube taught this stuff and everything. And he was just like “Oh, we’re just going to make a motor for you.” And I’m like “All right.” So, he made me a motor out of like a RC car, and I put one of those pink erasers from the pencils on there. And we got some guitar string and a sewing needle. And we used the shaft of like a Bic pen. And we had a tattoo machine. 01:34:45.000 --> 01:34:48.000 Wow! It worked? 01:34:48.000 --> 01:34:50.000 Yeah. Yeah, it worked. 01:34:50.000 --> 01:34:52.000 Who did you test it on? 01:34:52.000 --> 01:34:53.000 Uh, myself. 01:34:53.000 --> 01:34:54.000 Oh, wow! Again. 01:34:54.000 --> 01:35:41.000 Yeah. So, I did my thighs. And then, when I decided to dive deep into it, I told my cousin who was already eighteen, I was like “Okay, I need to find like a tattoo kit or something.” You know? I thought at the time, I think eBay was the only one that sold them from China. So, it was going to be like the worst quality. But it came with like a bunch of little inks and stuff. And so, I waited for a while. I got it. And I had no clue what I was doing. There was like a DVD that came with it or something. So, I watched a little bit of that. But I couldn’t really know until I used it. So, my cousin from France was actually visiting me that summer. And he’s like “Just test it on me.” So, I said, “Okay.” So, I did it. I did this Chinese symbol for energy on his chest, which still looks good today, actually. 01:35:41.000 --> 01:35:43.000 Oh, really? That’s cool. 01:35:43.000 --> 01:37:11.000 Yeah. But I knew nothing about needles. You know, there’s different sizes, configurations, whatever. But in my mind, I’m like “Oh. It has to be like drawing with a pen.” So, all I used was the smallest needles (pinches his right thumb and forefinger together to indicate something very tiny). And, you know, I even did like a whole back piece with this tiny, little needle, when—And then, later on, I realized there were bigger needles that I could shade with that are—that’d make it a lot faster. Yeah. But I didn’t know. I had this whole box of like a variety of them that came with the kit. So, I was just trying them all. I didn’t look at the size. I didn’t know anything about sizes. So, I just eyeballed it. (pinches his fingers and looks down, indicating eyeballing something) And looked and did it. Yeah. But I never intended to do it for money. I was doing it for fun. But then when I started to actually need money, I had a friend named Jamie. She was the one who pushed me to start charging people. She was like “Oh, you’re good. You might as well do it.” Because there weren’t that many Asian tattoo artists in the neighborhood, anyway, you know. So, it was illegal, obviously. Because I was underaged too. But I was tattooing, you know, just my friends pretty much. So, I would have her park outside my apartment complex because I didn’t want to park it inside. And I’d have someone go out there, walk them to my apartment where they’d come in, and my whole room I set up like a studio. I literally didn’t have a bed in there. I took it out. And I put a massage table in there. And that’s what I slept on. 01:37:11.000 --> 01:37:12.000 Wow. 01:37:12.000 --> 01:37:13.000 Yeah. 01:37:13.000 --> 01:37:16.000 Oh, my goodness. And this was in the place you were living in with your dad? 01:37:16.000 --> 01:37:22.000 Mm-hmm. Just me and him. He didn’t know I was tattooing for like three years. 01:37:22.000 --> 01:37:23.000 How did you hide it from him? 01:37:23.000 --> 01:37:59.000 Well, he was barely home. So, he was barely home and at the time I was also cutting hair. I was cutting hair and I was fixing cars. I was doing whatever I could because, obviously, being a teenager in the 2000s, you couldn’t do anything with no money, you know. You couldn’t go to movies. You couldn’t, you know, buy clothes. It was like a popularity contest all the time, you know. So, you always felt that constant pressure to get the next best thing or get the nice clothes or else no girls are going to like you. So, I had to do something. You know? Couldn’t get a job, really. 01:37:59.000 --> 01:38:01.000 Yeah. How old were you? 01:38:01.000 --> 01:38:05.000 I was like fifteen. I got arrested a few times. 01:38:05.000 --> 01:38:07.000 For tattooing? 01:38:07.000 --> 01:38:23.000 Um, no. (laughs) I had—I got arrested for like shoplifting once ; suspicion of auto theft once. But I never—Nothing ever came from it. Just my parents got in trouble if anything, you know. Paying fines and stuff. 01:38:23.000 --> 01:38:24.000 Okay. 01:38:24.000 --> 01:39:32.000 Yeah. But yeah. So, after that, I tattooed for a little bit, built some notoriety in my given area. I tattooed mostly Asians and Mexicans because that’s pretty much who I grew up with. I was ready to get rid of those Chinese tattoo machines and go to something better. So, I needed to find something more professional. But you couldn’t buy those unless you were working at a tattoo shop. So, we had to look on Craigslist and all that. And I found somebody that was selling something. And I contacted him to ask if it was still available. And I did this on MySpace, because he linked his MySpace. And it was a tattoo artist. And he told me that he had already sold those, but he was looking at my work and saw I did Asian art. And he needed Asian artists at his tattoo shop. So, I’m like “Okay. Like that’s cool!” And I wanted to learn the right way. I’m like “Are you like taking apprenticeships right now?” And he was like “No. We just need like an artist.” Literally, to draw for them to tattoo. 01:39:32.000 --> 01:39:33.000 Oh! 01:39:33.000 --> 01:41:21.000 I’m like “Ehhh, I don’t know, man.” Because I had gotten an offer, maybe when I was sixteen, to draw for Baby Bash, the singer rapper. He was doing a shoe line and he wanted to do some Asian designs for the shoes. And I rejected that because I was so young. I couldn’t go to Or—It was in Orange County. I couldn’t just go to Orange County and do it, you know? So, I rejected that. And this time, with this guy, I was just like, “Mmm, I mean, we can try it out.” You know what I mean? But I was about to go to San Diego State already. So, the summer before San Diego State, you know, I met up with him and his business partner. And they didn’t even have a shop yet, okay? So, it was kind of sketchy. But they lived over there like towards, you know, La Mesa or something in San Diego. And I went to this guy’s apartment. And they were just in the house kind of setting up everything because they were about to move into the shop. And it wasn’t really like a shop-shop, either. It was like a small like medical studio, in Hillcrest. And it was literally just a small room, like three hundred square feet. And both of these guys were trying to work in there. So, it was two Caucasian guys, okay. The first time I met them, they were telling me, yeah, you know, they need some designs because they do a lot of designs for different clubs or whatever. And I’m like, “What kind of clubs are you talking about?” He was like, “Oh, like motorcycle clubs and stuff.” And I’m like “Okay.” I’m like, “What kind of motorcycle club?” And then he gave me all these references, and everything was a woodpecker. Right? You ever heard of the Pecker Woods? 01:41:21.000 --> 01:41:22.000 No. 01:41:22.000 --> 01:41:23.000 Like the Aryan brotherhood? 01:41:23.000 --> 01:41:24.000 Oh really? 01:41:24.000 --> 01:41:31.000 Yeah. So, anyway. It was like skinhead, Aryan brotherhood, whatever, right? 01:41:31.000 --> 01:41:32.000 I’ve heard of Aryan brotherhood. 01:41:32.000 --> 01:47:06.000 Yeah. So, they were in the Aryan brotherhood when they were inside. They were both locked up for ten years before they came out. That’s how they met, in prison, right? So, they came out and decided to do the shop together. And, you know, I was the only guy there. And I didn’t care. It was like I just needed an opportunity, you know. And they were nice to me. They had no problem with me, I guess, because I’m Asian or something. But, you know, you can hear the racism, them towards other people. And, you know, my time there was interesting because they didn’t let me tattoo yet, because technically I was an artist, you know. They didn’t need me until they went to a convention in Vegas, and they wanted me to, basically, make money for them while they were gone. So, that’s when I was able to start tattooing. They didn’t even have their own furniture or anything. They actually used my stuff. Because I had already—I had everything already set up in my room. So, I just transferred it over, you know. But I treated that place like my own. I painted the walls by myself. I decorated myself, organized it, always cleaned up after them. I treated myself as an apprentice, but I really wasn’t. I was just trying to like, you know, pitch in, pretty much. But yeah. It was interesting because I was covering up a lot of swastikas. I met a lot of ‘em. (chuckles) But they all loved me. So, I don’t know. It was weird. It was just a weird dynamic. And, you know, if you know anything about like the prison life, you know most people in there, it’s very trapped lives in there. Obviously, they all have to stick to their own people. When they’re out here, it’s different. You know what I mean? They can be friends. They can be best friends, and one guy could be black, and one guy could be white. But in there, you can’t. So—Yeah. So, yeah. I did a lot of that. But when these two guys came back from their convention in Vegas, they had some problems, I guess. I already knew there was going to be problems because one guy did all the line work for the tattoos and one guy did all the shading. So, you already know, it takes more to do shading than line work. But they always split it 50/50. So, you already knew that wasn’t going to work out. And then the guy that did the line work, he wasn’t as good as the other guy. But he was more disciplined, right? He was more of a businessman. And the shading guy, he was phenomenal, like his work. Me studying his work is what —my observing of it is what inspired me to tattoo the way I tattoo. You know what I mean? Because he could freehand anything. Like he literally tattooed himself in prison, like his whole arm. And it is perfectly symmetrical. Yeah. It’s pretty crazy. The other guy, though, he was like, he was hit or miss. But he was, you know, a normal dude. More normal. They eventually parted ways. And so, it was just me. And his name is Willis. So, it was just me and Willis left, right? So, it was just me and Willis left and, you know, he was cool. We basically took turns working. I became like, technically, his business partner. But I wasn’t. I mean, I gave 50% of everything I made. I started to get a lot of clients. And then, eventually, he got back on drugs, smoking, all that and kind of went downhill. And I ended up being the only one there, all the time. And I didn’t care. I got to work, you know. So, I kept doing that until he got—I guess, he felt he was spiraling. So, I had met my former business partner at that time. And he used to come hang out which is—It’s ironic, because he was a correctional officer before. Right? And his friend was Willis’s parole officer. So, this whole weird dynamic going on in my world. But anyway, he gave me the idea that we should leave. So, I was like I thought about it and I’m like “Yeah…” But, you know, I’m a loyal person. So, I said, “I don’t know. Let’s give him a chance. Whatever.” And I forgot what happened but there was one night he came in drunk or something, the—Willis came in drunk. And I was like, “You know what. I’m done.” So, we took all our stuff and we just left. Well, all my stuff, and just left. I didn’t care that I didn’t have another shop to go to or anything. I just stopped tattooing for a little bit. And we just kept rolling around, looking for real estate to, you know, to lease. It was super hard because I wanted it to be in my neighborhood in Linda Vista or Kearny Mesa. But no one would allow me to open there. Because it was a “family oriented” (makes quotation gestures with his fingers) neighborhood, right? The only tattoo shop there was on Clairemont (Mesa Blvd.) which is “Absolute Tattoo” and they’ve been there since the ‘80s or something. So, I looked everywhere. I looked at Chula Vista. I looked more north. And then, just no luck. So, we ended up having to go to City Heights, which I did not want to be there because I felt like it didn’t allow me the space to grow. It was more like purely a starter business. I wanted it to be somewhere where it had the potential to last, you know, forever in that location. You know what I mean? The only place that was available in City Heights was a three-story building, the Chinese looking one. You know what I’m talking about? 01:47:06.000 --> 01:47:08.000 Oh, what? The grocery store. 01:47:08.000 --> 01:47:13.000 Mmm, on 47th and El Cajon. AB—it’s like Asian Business Center. 01:47:13.000 --> 01:47:15.000 Oh! Really! 01:47:15.000 --> 01:47:16.000 So, I was on the second floor. 01:47:16.000 --> 01:47:19.000 Oh, I didn’t know your shop was there. Okay. 01:47:19.000 --> 01:48:14.000 So, it was owned by an Italian guy. The building was built by Vietnamese people. Owned by an Italian guy with a Chinese wife, okay? So, he knew that we needed it, obviously, because my business partner at the time had like really bad credit. And I was only like nineteen. I had no credit, you know. So, he knew that we needed the spot. So, he overcharged us, obviously. So, the walls were crooked. The floors, the concrete on the floor was so bad that it was like peeling off. Yeah. It was like soft concrete. It was so weird. But yeah. It was really weird. It was a really weird spot. We had like this giant hallway (indicates a narrow pathway with both hands), I mean long hallway that went super deep in and then you’ve got this little space (gestures space opening wider with his arms). So, that hallway was useless. But that was like two-hundred-square-feet of hallway, you know. But we stayed there for a good, maybe, five years. 01:48:14.000 --> 01:48:16.000 Oh. That’s a long time. 01:48:16.000 --> 01:48:42.000 Yeah. Well, every two years from that point—so, 2010, we opened that shop. And I got like a few apprentices. I ended up getting like five or six artists there. So, after that, I left. And I went to open a private studio across the street for myself. So, I worked there by myself for a little bit. And then, two years after that is when I opened Black Lotus now. 01:48:42.000 --> 01:48:43.000 Okay. Okay. 01:48:43.000 --> 01:49:33.000 Yeah. So, I’ve been there since 2014. So, that’s my third shop, Black Lotus. So, long story short, you know, I’ve had a lot of apprentices. I’ve had a lot of artists work for me. You know, people come and go. Some have gone on to open their own shops. And some just don’t tattoo anymore, you know. A lot of them have had a problem with a business partner and left. And so, we were down to almost nothing. Like literally every—I felt like when I was able to be there with my guys—because I was the one doing the tattoos—they were more in tune with everything. Everyone was happier, all that. But as soon as I left whatever shop that was, everything would just go haywire, you know. My business partner wasn’t a tattoo artist. He was just in management, pretty much. 01:49:33.000 --> 01:49:46.000 Okay. It sounds—There was—I didn’t hear a huge jump from when you went from apprentice, to like, business owner and professional. 01:49:46.000 --> 01:49:49.000 Yeah. It wasn’t long. It was like a year. Maybe a year, yeah. 01:49:49.000 --> 01:49:51.000 Okay. So, was there any— 01:49:51.000 --> 01:49:53.000 But I wasn’t an apprentice, though. That’s the weird thing. 01:49:53.000 --> 01:49:54.000 Right. You were actually an equal. 01:49:54.000 --> 01:50:09.000 If I had really done it, yeah. Because even the health inspector was surprised, and was like, “How old are you?” Because they just wanted to license me so I could start working right away. And I was only like eighteen. She even said I was probably the youngest registered tattoo artist in history. 01:50:09.000 --> 01:50:10.000 Wow! 01:50:10.000 --> 01:50:14.000 Yeah. Because of that, though. Not in a good way, you know what I mean? 01:50:14.000 --> 01:50:15.000 Yeah. 01:50:15.000 --> 01:50:26.000 But I met her again recently because they used our facility to teach their inspectors how to like inspect, pretty much. So, that was cool. 01:50:26.000 --> 01:50:31.000 That is cool! That’s where your attention to detail with every little thing comes. 01:50:31.000 --> 01:50:36.000 Yeah. And I was actually trying to go for pre-med when I was in school too. Yeah. 01:50:36.000 --> 01:50:40.000 Okay. I was going to ask how this interfered with your time at San Diego State. 01:50:40.000 --> 01:52:11.000 Um, it—I don’t know. I was actually really bored at San Diego State, you know. Yeah. I messed around a lot during my sophomore and junior years of high school. I missed a lot of school, like ninety days each year because I was tattooing at home. You know, I needed money more than I needed to go to school. And, of course, no one cared if I go or not because, you know, my dad didn’t really understand the dynamic of everything when it comes to school, how it’s illegal to ditch. Yeah. So, a lot of time, I just stayed home. If it was sunny, I would walk to school. If it wasn’t, I would just stay home. And no one was there to say anything to me about it, you know. So, I had to motivate myself to get my head back in the game when I was a senior. And then, it was frustrating because I had to retake a few classes which—It was really weird because I had—I was in AP English as a senior with a woman named Ms. Walker (Emily Walker) . She was—Everyone said she was so mean, but she was super nice to me. But I was a senior, taking AP English with her while I was taking sophomore English with her as well. So, she was like, “Why are you here?” And I’m like “I don’t know.” So, she just made me a TA. So did all my other teachers, like the Chemistry teacher. Because they knew I knew what I was doing. I just wasn’t there, you know. So, I had to take half the semester over with those classes. But yeah. That was cool. She even gave me a hundred bucks when I graduated. (smiles and nods) 01:52:11.000 --> 01:52:14.000 That’s nice. That’s really sweet. 01:52:14.000 --> 01:52:32.000 So, I ended up graduating with honors from high school. I had a few full-ride offers, like CSU Long Beach, San Diego State. I really wanted to go to UCSD, but they didn’t accept me for some reason, you know. My brother went there. That’s why. 01:52:32.000 --> 01:52:34.000 That’s why you wanted to go? 01:52:34.000 --> 01:54:47.000 Yeah. I think a lot of things I wanted to do was motivated by him at that time in my life. So, they didn’t accept me, and I had a choice between, you know, going to school far away or staying here. And in my mind, though, the way I thought of it was would I rather be mediocre at a like, you know, A-tier school or would I rather stand out at a okay school. (laughs) No offense. But that’s the problem. When I went to San Diego State, I was really bored. I felt like I knew too much already about what I wanted to get into, and the classes I took were just, you know, unnecessary. I took a course on Asian Studies at San Diego State and literally the whole semester was spent on watching movies and videos on kids in the Philippines. And we spent maybe, I don’t know, maybe two weeks on all the other countries. (chuckles) So, I was like, “What the heck.” So, maybe three weeks into that class, I just tattooed one of my classmates and told him to just do all the work for me. And I passed it, right. But I took an art history class. That was kind of weird. We were just studying cave paintings all the time. Yeah. I didn’t know what the real world like application was to that, besides people that are really interested in like cave paintings. But as soon as I was in there for maybe three to four weeks, I was done. I had a Chemistry class where there was something to solve that the teacher wrote on the board and for some reason no one could figure it out. So, at the end of class, I raised my hand, and I was like, “Can you like show us what you’re trying to do?” And they couldn’t figure it out either. So, at that point, I was like I’m done with this class, you know. Because most of them are grad students trying to finish their thing. So, I don’t hold it against them. But that was not good. (chuckles) 01:54:47.000 --> 01:54:48.000 Right. 01:54:48.000 --> 01:54:57.000 Yeah. So, I went there for like a year-and-a-half, two years. And then I just didn’t go back. Yeah. They even had —They even made me pay back money because I got the scholarship money. 01:54:57.000 --> 01:55:03.000 Financial aid, yeah. What was your intention with going to college, like— 01:55:03.000 --> 01:55:05.000 I was trying to be a plastic surgeon. 01:55:05.000 --> 01:55:07.000 Oh, okay. Okay. 01:55:07.000 --> 01:55:09.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Big undertaking (laughs). 01:55:09.000 --> 01:55:11.000 Yeah. So, you were going to go to med school then at some point. 01:55:11.000 --> 01:56:08.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Even at the age of, you know, ten, eleven, I was already trying to read my brother’s like biochem books and all that. Just to feel like a smart kid. But, you know, eventually I caught on. I took some athletic training classes. In high school, I knew about the human anatomy. I knew everything already to prepare me for that, you know. And I was really interested in helping people. I mean, it helps me a lot in my daily tattoo job too. Because I know when someone’s body reacts a certain way, I know exactly what it is. Even my—the people that work in my shop, every time they get sick, they’ll call me. Like “What do I do? What do I take?” So, it’s funny how it all applies to your life now, you know. Mm-hmm. But yeah. I definitely tried to groom myself to get there. 01:56:08.000 --> 01:56:24.000 Okay. Okay. I have so many follow-up questions. I’ll try to stay on topic. So, tell me how your dad reacted when he found out that you were tattooing and how does he feel about it now? Like how has that evolved? 01:56:24.000 --> 01:58:30.000 Well, they didn’t know I dropped out. I mean, I was already past eighteen, so. When I would come home earlier, then he’d be like “Why are you home so early?” you know. I just told him that I was taking a break from school to focus on my job. He—They thought I worked at some graphic design firm or something. Because I do graphic design, too. So, he thought I was just doing that. I had to have him co-sign my first shop, though, because I didn’t have credit, you know. So, it was just like—I know that was big for him because, you know, I was a knucklehead at the time. So, he probably didn’t trust me, thought I was going to mess him up. But I had him put his name on that and I’m like, “Just trust me. I got it, you know.” So, it wasn’t until I opened like my third shop ‘til he took it seriously. Yeah. Because my parents were asking me constantly, “Well, when are you going back to school? When are you going back to school?” I’m like, “I’m not going back, dude. I have like three businesses, you know.” But I knew they were okay with it when they started asking me for stuff, (laughs) like “Can you pay for this?” or, you know, “Buy me this.” My brother was kind of —He knew I went through a lot trying to like catch up with him or—it’s because my parents were kind of there for him throughout his whole like childhood. And when he went to medical school, everyone supported him. My aunt, you know, took care of him and everything. But when it came time for me, like no one was there for me, you know? So, we had a different struggle. Although he lived like a really bad life in Vietnam with my parents, and then, you know, came over here to become a success, I had like a different set of problems I dealt with, you know, even being born in America, you know. You can’t compare the two because they’re so dramatically different. But he knew. So, he told me, just do whatever makes me happy. He was like, “As long as you’re a good person, that’s all that matters.” Because he knew I had the pressure on me to do, you know, be a doctor or lawyer or whatever it may have been. 01:58:30.000 --> 01:58:31.000 Yeah. Okay. 01:58:31.000 --> 01:58:35.000 And he found out I was tattooing when I was like sixteen, so— 01:58:35.000 --> 01:58:37.000 How did he find out? 01:58:37.000 --> 01:59:31.000 Um, I slept at his house, and I made the mistake of wearing a T-shirt. And I already had—Keep in mind, at the age of fifteen, I already had both my legs tattooed, like most of my body, and then both half-sleeves done. (laughs) So, I was sleeping with a short-sleeved shirt, and I had like my arm up or something. And then he—we went to go eat the next day and he was like “Man, I could have swore I saw a tattoo on your arm or something.” And I’m like “No. What are you talking about?” And he lifted up, I think, the wrong arm because I didn’t have one on the other side. And he was like “What the heck?” So, then later on, he does it again while I’m in the car with him, and he’s like “I know I saw a tattoo.” And then he lifted up the right arm and he’s like “When the heck did you get that?” And I’m like “Uh, I started tattooing on the side to make money and stuff.” And he’s like “Okay.” And he was just telling me like “Be careful.” Whatever. And that’s it. Kind of just end of story, you know. 01:59:31.000 --> 01:59:32.000 Okay. 01:59:32.000 --> 01:59:34.000 Yeah. 01:59:34.000 --> 01:59:44.000 How has the Vietnamese community reacted? And Vietnamese American? I assume it’s somewhat different. 01:59:44.000 --> 02:01:22.000 It’s been interesting because I’m really—I’m very proper, you know. I’m very respectful to the elders. I’ve been involved with the community for so long because I was—I helped like the Vietnamese Boy Scouts out most of my life. I was in like Vietnamese Lion dancing. I’ve attended, you know, all the festivals, restaurant grand openings. And I have a lot of family, you know. So, I guess my family doesn’t, never took offense to me tattooing or anything. They always, eventually, like made a joke out of it. Like “Oh, tattoo a fly on me,” or something, you know. But they never looked down on it or anything. My parents have a lot of siblings. They have ten each. So, there’s a lot of family. They all know what I do and what I’m doing with it. So, I think they’re okay with that. Even my family that came here recently from Vietnam, they’re, you know, pretty accepting of everything. But I don’t know. I guess society as a whole, when you’re talking about Vietnamese people, they’re still judgmental, obviously. I’ve been to events where, you know, I could be donating like a few thousand dollars, and I’ll sit down at the table with people I don’t know, and they won’t say a word to me. They won’t talk to me or anything until after they realize who I am or what I’ve done. And then all of a sudden, it’s “Oh. Can I take a picture with you?” or “Can you help me with this?” but yeah. Unfortunately, that’s the way it is but it’s up to us to change it, you know. 02:01:22.000 --> 02:01:27.000 Okay. And what about the tattooing community? 02:01:27.000 --> 02:01:28.000 Tattooing community? 02:01:28.000 --> 02:01:29.000 Yeah. 02:01:29.000 --> 02:02:27.000 Kind of the same thing, because I didn’t have a formal apprenticeship. I taught myself how to tattoo. At the time, when I was starting out, it was still very—Tattooing was very—It’s a tight-knit community, I guess you could say. The only way you learn is if you learn from like this guy that passed it down to that guy. It was—There wasn’t public information out about it because they didn’t want it to get bigger. And there weren’t that many clients at the time either. Because there was no shows out or anything. So, you take what you can get. And they didn’t want competition, you know. I got in at the right time when it was blowing up. So, I kind of like took all the customers from San Diego, especially the Asian customers. So, you know, I got a lot of hate, even with the Asian tattoo artists in San Diego. There’s only like two or three of them. 02:02:27.000 --> 02:02:31.000 Two or three Asian tattoo artists? Asian or Vietnamese? 02:02:31.000 --> 02:02:32.000 At the time. Asian. 02:02:32.000 --> 02:02:33.000 Oh, wow! 02:02:33.000 --> 02:03:19.000 There weren’t that many. But, obviously, I was impeding on their business, too. And I was young, and I was hungry. So, they were saying “Who the heck is this kid?” That guy I used to hang out with, too, when I was fifteen, he reached out to me when I was about seventeen years old and asked me to work for him. And I said no. Because I didn’t want to tattoo the same way and kind of repeat the same things. So, that’s why I decided that. He was like “Oh, why do you want to work for white dudes, you know.” (shrugs his shoulders) I just wanted to do something different, you know. I wanted to run things different. I wanted people to look at me different. I didn’t want to just be another Asian tattoo artist in San Diego. I wanted to be more and do more, you know. 02:03:19.000 --> 02:03:38.000 Mm-hmm. Okay. When did you—I think—So, I was looking back, and I was trying to remember when I first heard about you. And it was when you did the art with the girl and the nón lá (non la, Vietnamese conical leaf hat) thing. 02:03:38.000 --> 02:03:43.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I call it the Model Minority. But a lot of people refer to it as “Hate is a Virus.” 02:03:43.000 --> 02:03:48.000 Yes! Hate is a Vi—Okay. Yes. Okay. So, how—can you tell me how that got started as a project? 02:03:48.000 --> 02:06:52.000 Mmm, that was an accident. Actually. Mm-hmm. So, during Covid, I didn’t think it would last as long as it did, the lockdowns. So, you know, they closed —They made me close my shop down for, I think it was seven months or something. It was pretty crazy, which is weird because they left the nail shops open, but not me. (laughs) I was even trying to be innovative and industrious. And I was going to convert the whole outside of my shop into like an outdoor setting, like with tents, canopy, cover, air conditioning vent, everything. But they were like, “No.” (chuckles) But, so we had to stay home. SoI didn’t know what I was doing with myself, and I heard about, you know, all the xenophobia stuff. So, I sat down. I was looking at Instagram and I saw an organization called “Hate is a Virus.” So, I wanted to help them in a way, help kind of amplify the message. And I just sat down and started drawing something. And I don’t usually finish my drawings either because I’m always just prepping for tattoos, you know. But I finally had time to just do whatever I wanted. So, I drawed a little sketch of it and I posted it, and everyone reacted pretty crazy. So, I decided to finish it. And I put it out there, and it kind of like blew up. And I wasn’t planning or intending to do anything with it, like make clothing or any of that. But one of my friends, who I actually just met with before this, he’s the one that—him and my wife were like “Oh, you need to make T-shirts out of this or something.” I’m like “Ehh, I don’t know. I don’t have the money right now,” because my shop was—We were going to be closed for a long time. So, I needed to use my own savings to pay for this. So, I was like, “I don’t know. I don’t have the money right now. It’s just going to be, it’s going to be a waste, you know. You don’t know if people are going to buy it.” And then my friend, he’s a pretty successful businessman. He trapped me and he ordered fifteen hundred shirts, right. Mm hmm. So, he ordered fifteen hundred shirts and he told me, he was just like “Oh, just pay me later.” And I was like “Okay.” That’s like $10,000, right. So, I was like “Okay, now I gotta sell this,” right? I’m pretty persistent and I’m pretty—when I put my mind to something, I’ll do it. I’ll be able to do it. So, I just started cranking out, you know. I had to create the website right away. Get all the analytics in there right away. And just start cranking ‘em out. So, I got all the pre-orders as soon as that happened. It was like a few thousand. I had at least like a thousand-some sales that first run. You know, we were selling them for 30 bucks each and I was donating 10% to Hate is a Virus. So, I mean, that’s a lot of money, right? (chuckles) 02:06:52.000 --> 02:06:54.000 Yeah. It is. 02:06:54.000 --> 02:08:11.000 So, after that happened, things kind of died down. And I was like “whatever,” you know. I still had like a few shirts left, maybe like three hundred shirts left or something. And I was able to open up the shop again and, you know, things were normal. And then the next year, it blew up again. But I didn’t do anything. It just—Somebody had shared it again. And then that is the year that it blew up like all around the world. So, yeah, one day I just woke up. I’m like “What the heck is going on? Like there’s so many people on my page right now.” So, it reached like Vietnamese celebrities. It reached like, you know, even my client came in one day and she was like “Oh my god, my surgeon just posted up your freaking thing.” I was like “What the heck.” It was some random Indian guy I don’t know, you know. So, there was—Facebook posted it. Instagram posted it. PBS. It was used in protests. It was used on covers of magazines. It was used for—I think it’s in some building at the—What’s that university in Pennsylvania? 02:08:11.000 --> 02:08:13.000 Penn State? 02:08:13.000 --> 02:08:14.000 Temple? Is it Temple? 02:08:14.000 --> 02:08:15.000 Oh, Temp—There’s—Yeah. There is Temple University. 02:08:15.000 --> 02:08:42.000 Yeah, I think it was Temple University. Yeah. It was used in a lot of things. And I was like “What the heck is going on?” you know. And to me, I mean, everything I draw I’m kind of like “Okay, whatever,” you know? I don’t really like admire it the same way that people can. Because just like when I cook, I don’t really like eating my cooking. Because I’m so tired of looking at it, you know. But yeah. It meant a lot to a lot of people. And I’m glad. 02:08:42.000 --> 02:08:44.000 Okay. 02:08:44.000 --> 02:09:55.000 Yeah. So, it opened, definitely opened the doors for me in the sense where there are different people who approach me now to have interviews and everything than just tattoo enthusiasts. You know what I mean? I feel like if I was just a tattoo artist and people only knew me with that, as that person with that title, in your mind you tend to already assume I look a certain way, do certain things, live a certain way. But this kind of changed everything for people. You know what I mean? I did news interviews with like Vietnamese news channels, you know, which is—It must have been weird for her viewers because they’ve probably never seen anybody like me on there. But, you know, it definitely shifts perspectives in a good way. Yeah. Very interesting though. My parents were scared I was going to say something wrong. They were like “Don’t talk politics.” I’m like— (shrugs his shoulders). She did try to trap me into talking about politics. But I didn’t do it. 02:09:55.000 --> 02:10:08.000 You didn’t fall for it. Okay, yeah. Okay. So, speaking of Vietnam, how often do you go back? 02:10:08.000 --> 02:10:12.000 Mmm, I’ve been there twice. But I haven’t been there since ’09. 02:10:12.000 --> 02:10:13.000 Oh. It’s been a while. 02:10:13.000 --> 02:11:12.000 Mm-hmm. The first time I went there was scary because I went there in ’05 the first time. And that was my first time ever on an airplane. I was supposed to go with my brother, but we didn’t make the decision until last minute. He bought me a ticket, you know. So, he was able to get me—He was going with his soccer team because he used to play for the Vietnamese league that played with like the Vietnamese soccer team. So, he got me a flight at the same time, but it wasn’t the same flight. And I flew by myself. My first time ever on an airplane. I was flying to Vietnam, right? So, I was like “Okay. I don’t know what I’m doing but—” You know, I flew to Taipei. I didn’t speak their language. I was just kind of like wandering around, trying to look for whatever. Taipei to Vietnam and then I go through customs and they kind of take me back because I had—At the time, I had the map of Vietnam on my arm tattooed with three stripes. 02:11:12.000 --> 02:11:13.000 Oh. 02:11:13.000 --> 02:11:25.000 Yeah, and it was hot, so I was wearing a tank top. So, they kind of, you know, grilled me for that. But then my brother got there, and his friend knew the customs agent, so they let me go. But yeah. That was interesting. 02:11:25.000 --> 02:11:30.000 How did you feel like throughout this whole flight experience? Like what was going through your mind? 02:11:30.000 --> 02:11:42.000 I don’t remember. I kind of just like shut it off. I was listening to the same music. There wasn’t that much to listen to at the time. I don’t think they had a lot of movies on there at the time either. 02:11:42.000 --> 02:11:43.000 In ’05. No, I don’t think so. 02:11:43.000 --> 02:11:56.000 Yeah. So, you know, I was just trying to mind my own business and, you know, do that. I was just more scared if I was going to survive the flight or not. (laughs) Because I’d never been on a plane. So— 02:11:56.000 --> 02:11:59.000 Yeah. That’s a really long flight for a first time. 02:11:59.000 --> 02:12:05.000 Yep. Yep. I was adventurous back then, so— 02:12:05.000 --> 02:12:06.000 Wait. Say that again? 02:12:06.000 --> 02:12:08.000 I said I was adventurous back then, though, so— 02:12:08.000 --> 02:12:09.000 Oh, adventurous. 02:12:09.000 --> 02:12:11.000 I was more curious than anything. 02:12:11.000 --> 02:12:15.000 Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. And how did the second time go? 02:12:15.000 --> 02:13:15.000 The second time was chill, easy. I flew—The second time there, I met my mom there. My mom had flown over there too. So, me and my brother and my mom. That’s when she found out about all my tattoos. Mm-hmm. Because we went to a spa. I didn’t know it was like a co-ed thing. So, me and my brother, we checked in in one area and my sister-in-law and my mom was in another. So, I’m like “Okay, whatever.” So, I told my brother, I’m like “Dude, Mom is going to see all my tattoos.” And he’s like “No she’s not.” And I’m like “All right.” (shrugs his shoulders) I was wearing like—you know, they have white shorts over there. So, at the end, after we go through everything, we walked to our room for the massage, and I see my mom. I’m like “Oh, shit.” So, she sees me, and she doesn’t say a word to me. And I was like “That’s it.” She like didn’t mention it. She already knew I was doing tattoos. But she didn’t know how many I had ; you know. But yeah. 02:13:15.000 --> 02:13:16.000 Did she follow up on it later? 02:13:16.000 --> 02:13:17.000 No. 02:13:17.000 --> 02:13:18.000 She never? 02:13:18.000 --> 02:13:30.000 No. She cried one time when she was talking to somebody about it in front of me, though, like “Oh, I can’t believe he got his neck tattooed.” And all that. She’s like “Let me just pay for you to get it lasered off.” I’m like “No. It’s okay.” Because in her mind I think she thinks that if she was here, I wouldn’t have become this person or whatever it may be, you know. That I would have taken a different path if she was around. But I don’t regret anything that happened to me in my life, you know. I think everything happens for a reason and she needed to go in order for me to be this. Like how I am now. You know what I mean? If they had tried to shelter me my whole life, it would have—I don’t know. Maybe I would be in school right now, unhappy with what I was doing. Right? Because if I had gone to another school in another state or something, I probably would have stayed, right, and finished. But, then what? I don’t know. But I’m glad that I did try to make it work, before I gave up on it. Rather than now saying “Oh, what if this happened,” right? 02:13:30.000 --> 02:14:40.000 Yeah. Yeah. You don’t want those kinds of regrets. Why not at least try it? Have you ever talked to your mom about her leaving? 02:14:40.000 --> 02:15:22.000 No. She doesn’t—She—My family doesn’t talk about anything. We don’t even give each other hugs. It’s very like a super traditional Vietnamese family. It’s just barely—I mean, my dad like hugs my wife and stuff and the kids and all that. But I’m—I don’t know. I guess we’re cold in that sense. It’s just the way it is, you know. It’s just more of the women in the family that do the hugging and kissing and stuff. Which is funny because my dad’s — all his siblings, his sisters, they’re like so loving. And they’re so like nurturing and everything. And my mom’s family is super like that too. They’re very tight knit, you know. 02:15:22.000 --> 02:15:25.000 Okay. What’s your relationship with your family like now? 02:15:25.000 --> 02:15:58.000 Um, it’s good. I mean I barely—I don’t really see my cousins too much anymore even though they’re like right down the street. Because I’m just so busy, you know. I think they get offended sometimes that I am that busy. But I know that what I’m doing is, you know, to set myself up for more time later. So, it’s okay. You know, they’ll understand, eventually. But I’m still close to all my cousins. Like they can contact me anytime, even my cousins from France, Australia. I speak to them on a regular basis. Yeah. 02:15:58.000 --> 02:16:00.000 That’s nice. Okay. 02:16:00.000 --> 02:16:03.000 There’s a lot. They’re all over the world, so— 02:16:03.000 --> 02:16:17.000 Mm-hmm. Cool. (pause) I want to go back to the Vietnamese American community. 02:16:17.000 --> 02:16:18.000 Okay. 02:16:18.000 --> 02:16:23.000 Do you (sighs)… Gosh… 02:16:23.000 --> 02:16:25.000 (chuckles) Trying to phrase it. 02:16:25.000 --> 02:16:34.000 Yeah! There’s just so much. And I feel like this is a really important part of this project, is to talk about identity and our relationship to the community. 02:16:34.000 --> 02:16:43.000 I guess what you want to ask—the question that I think a lot about too—is whether you identify as American or Vietnamese? Right? 02:16:43.000 --> 02:16:44.000 Mmm. Tell me. 02:16:44.000 --> 02:17:50.000 Um, I consider myself Vietnamese, honestly. I don’t know about the American. I mean, I should be the most American Vietnamese American ever, being born in Michigan. But I guess it depends. Because I grew up in the United States, but I grew up around immigrants. So, are you truly a Vietnamese American when you’re surrounded by nothing but your own people? Just like in Orange County, you can survive being a Vietnamese person without knowing any English in Orange County. So, you know, I mean the rules of the land apply, but do the social and, you know, the cultural rules apply? No. So, it’s a weird—I guess it just depends. Because a Vietnamese kid in, I don’t know, Napa Valley or something is going to be more Vietnamese American than, say, me, you know. A Vietnamese person in San Jose versus, I don’t know, freaking Montana or something is going to be different as well. 02:17:50.000 --> 02:17:51.000 Yeah. 02:17:51.000 --> 02:17:53.000 Yeah. 02:17:53.000 --> 02:17:58.000 How do you think the Vietnamese community sees you, like Vietnamese Vietnamese? 02:17:58.000 --> 02:18:02.000 I think they see me as a reflection of themselves. 02:18:02.000 --> 02:18:03.000 Okay. Tell me more. 02:18:03.000 --> 02:19:02.000 Like I feel like—Okay. So, here’s an example. People think I’m Filipino, often, right? So, I always see like, you know, older Filipino women and, you know, working or something. And they ask me, “Oh, are you Filipino?” Or they’ll speak to me in Tagalog. I’m like “No. I’m not.” And then, you know, Chinese people might speak to me in Chinese and think I’m Chinese. And I’m like “No. I’m not.” And Vietnamese people the same thing. But it’s like, I feel like the true Vietnamese people see me as one of them and the Vietnamese—I’m a chameleon. So, it’s hard. Because I can fit in with both. Because when I was growing up, I grew up with, you know, the City Heights Vietnamese guys who like some of them just came over here. Some of them have only been here for like five, six years. But I also grew up with some guys from Mira Mesa that have been, their families have been here for a while. So, they’re more like Americanized. So, I don’t know. That’s kind of a hard one. 02:19:02.000 --> 02:19:03.000 Yeah. 02:19:03.000 --> 02:19:27.000 I guess I can adjust and adapt to both, you know. Because I’m super Vietnamese in the sense where I’m participating in like, you know, the Boys Scouts stuff, the Chinese Lion Dance during Tết (Tet, Vietnamese new year) stuff. And I’m always involved with like the Tet Festival and everything. But I’m Vietnamese American as a scholar, you know. 02:19:27.000 --> 02:19:44.000 When do you feel the most like yourself? When do you feel the most at home and comfortable? Like when are you, you? Like, it might be place, certain people, setting, after a certain experience. 02:19:44.000 --> 02:19:49.000 I don’t know. I guess I feel most like myself at like 1, 2 a.m. It doesn’t matter where it’s at. 02:19:49.000 --> 02:19:51.000 Okay. Why 1 or 2 a.m.? 02:19:51.000 --> 02:20:42.000 I don’t know. That’s always been my time, where I am most productive and at my peak. I don’t understand why. Ever since I was little, it’s been like that. Yeah. Like just last night, I was writing this—I have an article coming out and I finished that like at 2 in the morning. But I just had that last piece, and I’ve been waiting like two or three days to kind of get my mind in the space to write it. And I just knocked it out at 1 a.m., 2 a.m. (chuckles) Even when I tattooed, when I was tattooing at home, you know, I was trying to hide it. So, I had people come at, you know, midnight or 1 a.m. to tattoo them. Yeah. Because I couldn’t do it in the daytime all the time, because I had school. So, that’s always been like my time. My worst and my best. 02:20:42.000 --> 02:20:43.000 Why worst? 02:20:43.000 --> 02:21:38.000 Um, because, you know, late at night is when you’re alone and you have to deal with your own thoughts. And, you know, think about the past, present, future. That’s when all the pressure comes. And you’re still awake while everybody else is, you know, at peace. Yeah. But I think that that’s helped me grow more than anything. My ability to—A lot of people look at, um—Like I answered this question last night in the article, speaking about what do I do when I get overwhelmed. And those moments are usually when I get the most overwhelmed, I see them more as challenges rather than like problems, you know, like personal problems. Because I feel like if I can go over those humps, it will prepare me for the next one and the next one. It kind of callouses you and prepares you for anything the world brings at you, you know. 02:21:38.000 --> 02:21:39.000 Okay. 02:21:39.000 --> 02:21:41.000 Yeah. 02:21:41.000 --> 02:21:58.000 It sounds to me like you are very much identified with your work, and I don’t necessarily mean your career. But like you like to produce. You’re an action-oriented person. Would you say that’s true? 02:21:58.000 --> 02:22:44.000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, anything—No one can stop me when I have my head or my heart set on doing something. I’ll tell you that. And no one can tell me no. If I know what I’m going to do, I will. And it doesn’t matter how I do it. But I always get there. You know? And I can guarantee that I never put my foot through the door unless I know it’s going to happen. It’s going to work. You know. Because I’m a very careful person. So, I’m not going to waste my time. Or I’m not going to waste any time, any years, or any people’s time unless it’s something that I’m not 110% invested in, or understands, you know. 02:22:44.000 --> 02:22:55.000 Uh-huh. Okay. That’s—I respect that. That’s like my mom, honestly. There’s nothing she cannot do. And if she decides she’s going to do it, then it’s happening. Like nothing will stop her. 02:22:55.000 --> 02:22:57.000 It’s a Vietnamese work ethic. That’s my mom, too, though. 02:22:57.000 --> 02:22:58.000 Yeah? 02:22:58.000 --> 02:26:13.000 Yeah. She’ll work ‘til—I mean she’s still doing nails now. She’s like 67 years old. And she—I remember I used to have to walk her home like when I was six, seven years old. Because, well, she worked maybe like five, six blocks away. So, me and my brother sometimes would have to go get her and walk her home. Because my dad—She didn’t drive. And my dad was like drinking somewhere, I don’t know. So, she would call us. We’d have to go get her, walk her home and all that. And when my brother left, I would have to do it myself. I would have to like skip Halloweens and everything just to do that for her, too. And, you know, she did that every day. She walked to work every day, walked home. And on Fridays, she would clean the house by herself. Clean the bathroom. I would help her. And there was this one night I’ll never forget. I think I was like eight years old. She was sitting on the bed after she got done cleaning the mirrors, and she was like “Oh, I’m so like dizzy.” And I was like “What the heck?” And I thought she was messing around, and she was just laying there on the bed. And I was like “What’s going on?” And I thought she was kidding or faking it. So, I started jumping on the—I was a kid, and I was jumping the bed, and I was like “Wake up, mom” or whatever. And she wouldn’t wake up. And I don’t know what got into me but like automatically I just had that instinct to help her. So, I went to go get some eucalyptus oil or something and I put it in her nose, and some on her stomach. And all of a sudden, she woke up. So, like she was so tired that she like passed out, you know what I mean. And that’s not the first time. She got sick so many times. And she got the flu really bad once when I was about ten years old. And she needed to go to the hospital. And I was scared. I was so young. So, she told me to call—Or she told me to call my brother. At the time, he just had a pager, and he was in the mountains. So, he couldn’t get it. So, I was like “What do I do?” So, I had to call 9-1-1, right? So, I called 9-1-1 and I told them everything. I talked to them for like ten, fifteen minutes. And then my dad came home. And he was drunk, of course. So, he was mad that it was going to be inconvenient for him to go to the hospital or pay for the ambulance or whatever it may have been. So, yeah. So, I was just in the car with him, going there. And he was more worried about him getting a DUI than anything. But yeah. She was pretty bad. She was really sick. She came home, I think, a day after that and it got worse again. So, my brother luckily was at home by the time that he took her. But that was kind of when my brother got fed up with my dad and his stuff. And he wrote him this long letter. I remember seeing it. It was in Vietnamese, basically telling him if he doesn’t get his act together, then my brother is going to take me away. You know what I mean? So, I guess he took that seriously because, you know, it was better for a little bit. But then it got worse again. And that’s when me and my dad started bumping heads, like crazy. 02:26:13.000 --> 02:26:15.000 And how old were you-ish? 02:26:15.000 --> 02:26:53.000 Like eleven, twelve. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I fought my dad when I was twelve. Yeah. And he was so out of it, he didn’t—he doesn’t even remember any of it. Except for like the next day he kind of like with what my mom told him or something. But I remember that night, me and my mom went to my aunt’s house, and she was just talking to her about how she thinks I was like so fed up and I couldn’t take any more and just went crazy, you know, ‘cause I was sick that day and he wasn’t there, you know. So, yeah. That’s when everything changed between me and my dad after that day. 02:26:53.000 --> 02:26:55.000 What do you mean it changed? 02:26:55.000 --> 02:27:46.000 He just looked at me different. I looked at him different, you know. I saw him as more of an enemy than anything, and he didn’t see me as his son anymore. So, I don’t know. Even when I got arrested that one time, he was just like “Oh, just let him, you know, go to jail.” And all that. But, even after my mom left—that’s why I said when my mom did leave, it was very—it took a lot for me to stay because of all that history, you know, which sucks because when I was younger, I remember he was great. He was the one at home taking care of me everyday and—Because that’s when not a lot of his friends were over here yet, you know. My uncles weren’t here yet. And when he got back on that cycle of nhậu (nhau, drinking and socializing) all the time, it just, it got bad. 02:27:46.000 --> 02:27:47.000 Did it ever get better? 02:27:47.000 --> 02:27:48.000 Yeah. It’s better now. 02:27:48.000 --> 02:27:49.000 Okay. 02:27:49.000 --> 02:28:39.000 I mean, honestly, that fight between me and my dad was the best and the worst thing that could happen, you know. Because he finally—I feel bad about it to this day, and I feel guilty because, you know, the way we see our parents is like you’re supposed to respect them and all of the above. But, you know, there comes a point where you just have to cut it. So, yeah, I think it was—it gave him a reality check that, you know, he’s not invincible and he’s not going to keep doing the same thing over and over without nothing happening. So, me getting in that fight with him, my mom leaving, everything at the same time kind of, it just piled up, you know. He started to drink a lot less. And, you know, when I say something he like listens to me now. (laughs) 02:28:39.000 --> 02:28:41.000 Yeah. That’s something. 02:28:41.000 --> 02:29:26.000 Because I’m rational. At the end of the day, you know, like my parents have always told me that even though my brother’s like a doctor and everything, they always tell me like I have the most potential, because I kind of, I raised myself, you know. So, whenever they need something, they ask me. Whenever they need something to get done, they ask me. My dad was diagnosed with cancer two or three years ago, and I kind of guided him through that whole thing. He's in remission now today. But yeah, that was an interesting time too. It made me realize like how precious time really is, you know. He didn’t want to come up to Temecula to live with me, so he stayed in Mira Mesa. But I try to see him once a week or so. 02:29:26.000 --> 02:29:28.000 You come down to Mira Mesa? 02:29:28.000 --> 02:29:31.000 Yeah. So, on the way home, I’ll like stop by there or something. 02:29:31.000 --> 02:29:33.000 Okay. 02:29:33.000 --> 02:29:40.000 Mm-hmm. But, you know, it is weird. As your parents get older, they always want to see you. And, you know, when you’re young, you’re just kind of like passing by all the time. 02:29:40.000 --> 02:29:41.000 Yeah. 02:29:41.000 --> 02:29:43.000 Mm-hmm. 02:29:43.000 --> 02:29:51.000 Yeah. I feel like that’s the difference between being a kid and being an adult, is when you realize how important that relationship is, even if it’s difficult. 02:29:51.000 --> 02:30:46.000 Yeah. And like it or not, you are a reflection of some of those characteristics that your parents hold. I mean, me and my dad, we’re like—Okay, I’m stubborn like my mom. I’m determined all the time like my mom. And, you know, I don’t take no like an answer for her. But I’m also like calm in a way like my dad. I’m always nice, smiling. He’s a very—He was great with like paperwork. He kept all the bills organized and everything. And that kind of helps me with the whole OCD thing. But yeah, he’s always been good in that regard. But my mom was really bad at spending money. I didn’t get that from her. And my dad was the opposite, you know. So, I believe I took on the best qualities of both of them. Yeah. Hopefully. (laughs) 02:30:46.000 --> 02:30:50.000 I assume they never said they’re proud of you. 02:30:50.000 --> 02:31:50.000 No. That’s not—It took me a—Like I had to pull teeth to get my dad to even come to my graduation, my high school graduation. So—Because they’re just so used to it. You know, my brother, he ran the Lion Dance group for so long and he never came out to his show. He—It was always me showing up to his stuff. Like he’s done—he used to sing. He used to do theater stuff for VSA (Vietnamese Student Association) at UCSD (University of California, San Diego). They’ve never been to any of that, you know. But now I feel like my dad is more in tune. Every time I have like a TV interview or something, he wants to watch it or share it with his friends or whatever. So, he’s finally at a point where he’s like “Okay, cool.” But, yeah, they never—I don’t know. Maybe they were just so used to me and my brother doing crazy things that they’re not fazed by it. (laughs) You know what I mean? 02:31:50.000 --> 02:32:02.000 Do you—So, I did like some theater type stuff when I was a kid. And my parents didn’t come to that either. And I don’t know—Do you think on some—Is that a Vietnamese thing? Is that an Asian thing? Like for parents to not— 02:32:02.000 --> 02:33:03.000 I think it’s an Asian thing. Because I got A’s all my life. That doesn’t mean—I didn’t get awarded for any of that. It’s an expectation. You know what I mean? But it’s because they—especially for Vietnamese parents who just came over here, they expect everything to be easier than it is over there. But they don’t really have a true sense of a comparison. Because they’re not—They didn’t go through this, you know? They only went through that. So, you know, they’re just basing it on what they hear and, you know, overall like the—they’re comparing a way of life to a way of living, I guess you could say. I don’t know. Like a new way of living. But it’s definitely very different. The, what do you call it? The social temperature is different. Everything is different here. 02:33:03.000 --> 02:33:15.000 Do you have any thoughts on the social relationship between the Asian community and the Black community? 02:33:15.000 --> 02:33:16.000 Do I have what? 02:33:16.000 --> 02:33:21.000 Do you have any thoughts on that, observations? I’m leaving it open-ended. 02:33:21.000 --> 02:36:52.000 Okay. Well, I’ve been —I’ve heard a lot of things, but I haven’t experienced. I know that they, the Asian community, wanted to support the Black community during the whole George Floyd thing. I even got asked to speak at a George Floyd event which I did not accept. But—Because I didn’t think it was proper for me to—It had nothing to do with me, you know? But I’ve worked with a lot of, you know, Black non-profits and stuff. And they’re great. We support each other and everything. I guess it just depends on which area you’re in. You know? I don’t think they should be going against each other. I don’t—But I also hear that they’re not supporting our movement as much as we supported theirs. But I don’t think that applies to every city or anything. I think they just—Whatever is popular on the news today. And if—you know, we’re going to take what we can get. And if people were only reporting on Black on Asian crime or Asian on Black crime or whatever, that’s all we’re going to hear. I don’t necessarily—I don’t know. I think it’s—I don’t think it should be a conversation that includes only Asians and Blacks but Hispanics and everyone as well, you know what I mean? I think whenever there’s a problem, we should all get together and figure it out. Whether—Even—The white community suffers from the same, you know, poverty and everything as we do. Some of them do, right? So, why is it fair to exclude them when it comes to things like that. When it comes to fighting for like, you know, your healthcare and taxes and all that. Why is it like that? That’s why in my non-profit, I try not to—I didn’t want to exclude anybody. It’s not just for Asians or just for Blacks or Hispanics. It’s for everybody. I’m not going to say no to a white kid just because he’s not a minority. It doesn’t make sense, right? Because then they’ll become the new minority, right? So, that’s what I truly believe. It bothers me that every time, a lot of times, when people refer to my non-profit, they refer to it as, kind of like what you said earlier. Like they refer to what they want it to be. So, they would say like, “Oh. It’s an Asian non-profit.” Or it’s a non-profit for Hispanics on the border or something. And why does it have to be that, though, you know? It’s more like a headline thing than what it really means. So, yeah, at the end of the day, I don’t know, we should all stick together somehow. It’s hard because it’s so competitive in a way, I guess. Even with Asians. Asian non-profits I’ve worked with in the past, they’re oddly competitive when they are working towards the same goal, which is weird. 02:36:52.000 --> 02:36:59.000 I’ve heard that even just about Vietnamese non-profits, like down in the City Heights area, that I’m talking to. There’s so much like in-fighting. 02:36:59.000 --> 02:37:20.000 Yeah. But you know what’s weird? The non-profits that I work with, the community partners that support me the most, they’re all in Orange County. And they barely even know me, you know what I mean? But they share my stuff. They help me out. They work with each other. Everything is kind of like— 02:37:20.000 --> 02:37:21.000 Is it—Is that a coincidence? 02:37:21.000 --> 02:37:48.000 I don’t know. It’s weird because you think they’d be more competitive. Because there’s nothing but Asians up there, right? I don’t know. Maybe it’s competition to stand out in San Diego. Right? Because there’s so few that any time a new one pops up, you know they’re like oh, they’re going to take care of everybody. You know what I mean? But as long as everyone does a different thing, they can do whatever they want. If you’re going for the same goal, you might as well just like (makes a coming together upward sweep with his hands) unite. (chuckles) 02:37:48.000 --> 02:37:56.000 Yeah. I agree. That’s how I feel about all the different like storytelling type initiatives. Like they’re all good. We need more if anything. 02:37:56.000 --> 02:40:00.000 You need a different approach and you just—you can have different approaches for your audience. And you’ll attract different audiences. You know? But like yeah. I mean there’s a lot of podcasts that focus on one people and one people alone. And that’s great but you’re limiting yourself to other stories that could change your perspective like that. I’m a very open like—I try to be as well-rounded as possible. I try to understand everybody, where they come from, their values. I’m not—I don’t know. I used to be all about Viet pride ‘til I die type of deal. I used to hang out with nothing but Vietnamese gangsters. We used to, you know, pick on people that weren’t Vietnamese and hate on people that weren’t and, you know, protect our own. All the guys that just came here from Vietnam I would like take care of them. But as I grew up, I realized we all need each other, you know. Whether you’re Vietnamese or not. My wife, her family is—I’m like the only Asian in-law. You know? She’s Laotian, but all her brothers and sisters are married to non-Asians pretty much. And ironically, I’m the only Asian. So, that was like kind of weird for me. It was like “Whoa. This is different.” You know? Because my family is primarily, you know—my sister-in-law is Vietnamese, all my cousins. Well, I have one cousin that his wife is French. But same thing, you know? (chuckles) So, there’s pretty much just French and Vietnamese people. Yeah. And then I have a Black cousin that was adopted by my aunt in France back then. So, my family has always been pretty like essentially an open book. Accept anyone, you know. We don’t have nothing to hide. We love when new people come around so we can share like our food, culture, all that. Yeah. 02:40:00.000 --> 02:40:02.000 That’s nice. 02:40:02.000 --> 02:40:18.000 Mm-hmm. Because, you know, we grew up, especially in San Diego, we grew up in a melting pot. So, it’s not like we’re in freaking Utah or something. Then that’s like a different ballgame. Um, but yeah. We’re lucky. Pretty soon, I’m pretty sure every state will be similar. 02:40:18.000 --> 02:40:20.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. 02:40:20.000 --> 02:40:23.000 Yeah. (nods) 02:40:23.000 --> 02:40:24.000 Okay. Thank you for sharing. 02:40:24.000 --> 02:40:25.000 What else? (laughs) 02:40:25.000 --> 02:40:27.000 Um, I have more questions. How are you feeling energy-wise? 02:40:27.000 --> 02:40:28.000 No, I’m good. I’m good. Yeah. 02:40:28.000 --> 02:40:36.000 You’re good? Okay. Tell me about the non-profit (The Doan Foundation). 02:40:36.000 --> 02:40:43.000 Okay. So, it started—I started it August of 2022. 02:40:43.000 --> 02:40:44.000 Oh. It’s really new. 02:40:44.000 --> 02:45:55.000 Mm-hmm. So, I kept replaying something my dad told me when I was just—I think I was just taking him out to eat. And he—Obviously, my brother’s successful. I guess I’m successful now too. So, you know, he was just telling me like he’s glad that me and my brother have figured out that we made something of ourselves. Because, you know, he had cancer at the time. So, he was just like, you know, “If I pass away, like I wish I had something to give you guys, but I don’t.” And, you know, my dad has been struggling—Like he’s been working for, what, since 1993, pretty much the same company and, you know, getting paid through retirement. With all that hard work, he’s just making like $1,000 a month. How are you going to live on that, right? So, you know, he’s frustrated with that. He’s like “What am I going to do with this. Like I can’t even afford rent with this amount, you know.” And he just was venting to me. So, I realized like—It made me reflect on why our families came here in the first place, to give their kids a better life which he succeeded in. You know what I mean? You know, so, I told myself, you know, it’s pretty amazing that a family that came over here with literally nothing and grew up on freaking welfare and Section 8 and eating government cheese and, you know, cereal box samples, can get to a place like this. So, I wanted to create an organization where I could, I guess, motivate other kids who were in the same position as I was to do more. Or motivate their parents to realize that they can give that to their children just through, you know, being persistent and giving them a stable environment to grow up in. So, at first, I just wanted to do some scholarships. Because I was donating money yearly to just random non-profits. But I caught myself thinking about where this money was actually going, and I just—(shrugs shoulders) You don’t know, right? So, I was like “Okay, I got to do it myself.” And that’s my problem. Every time I have an idea, I just implement it immediately. So, I told my wife one night, it was like “You know what? I’m going to start a non-profit.” And she was like “Okay.” She’s not surprised anymore until like I actually do it. And the next day I did it. So, I put in the paperwork and everything. And then I just got going. I wasn’t going to do anything big. It was just going to be me pretty much funding it. Every year maybe some donor or something will want to. But I wasn’t trying to promote it or make it big or anything. But one of my friends, one of my older friends, he’s been working in the sector for over thirty years. So, he was like “You need help with anything, let me know. Just ask me, you know.” So, I have too much pride. So, I like, like I said, I like learning everything myself before I even ask the question. I don’t want to sound stupid ; you know. So, when I did need some confirmation on things, I finally called him. I told him what’s going on. I showed him the website. He looked at everything and he’s like “Dude, everything looks good.” He’s like “What do you need help with?” I’m like “I don’t know. You need to tell me.” Anyway, it’s been like that for a while, and I was telling him like “I just want to give away a few scholarships and then just go from there and build it up slowly.” He’s like “Then why do it at all?” So, at that point, I was like that’s true. I’m not known as the guy to go soft on anything, you know? I’m very all or nothing. So, I was like “alright.” So, he made the offer. So, I made him my chair, or I was going to make him my chair, okay? And then, he introduced me to a few people. And that’s when I met Thảo (Thao). So, Thảo Hà (Thao Ha). And it took a while, like four dinners, but she finally said she wanted to be a part of it, and she wanted to be chair. So, she became chair and then my other friend, he’s vice-chair and so forth. So, now that I have other people involved, now I have to go all in, right? So, I had to navigate my way strategically. There’s a lot of grants and stuff that aren’t available to non-profits that have been established under a year. So, I found out that the hard way after looking a lot. So, I had to rely on individual donors. So, I didn’t realize how many people I knew or how many businesses I know. And I kind of reached out to everybody. And we’ve raised like over $30,000 so far. It’s only been about six months. Yeah. And I funded ten scholarships already. 02:45:55.000 --> 02:45:56.000 Oh, my goodness! 02:45:56.000 --> 02:47:27.000 And I’m getting—The kids are going to get chosen on April 1st. Yeah. So, at the moment, I’m just focusing on southern California because I don’t feel—I would love to do all of California. But it just makes things less, I guess you could say, personal. I want to do more of like the kids in your backyard, kind of deal, you know. I respect organizations that are trying to solve global problems like world hunger. But I don’t feel like there’s an immediate resolution to that, you know. I wanted to do something that would affect these teenagers immediately, so they could like move on and take the next step. It’s more like a—It’s a pedestal. That’s what the “foundation” in Foundation stands for. Like you being the foundation for their futures. It’s not a family Foundation, you know. Because people use the terms interchangeably. So, sometimes people get confused. But, yeah, that’s what I mean when I say “foundation.” And yeah, I mean, hopefully we can do crazy things. I’m a guy with really crazy ideas. So, we’ll see what happens. But I really want to do something that’s related to the arts but includes every culture you can think of in one, you know. Have you ever been to the Multicultural Fair? In San Diego? In Linda Vista? 02:47:27.000 --> 02:47:28.000 No. 02:47:28.000 --> 02:47:43.000 They have it once a year. But it’s just like a little street fair thing. It’s very, really small. When I was young, I used to think it was huge. But, you know, it’s just food and some stuff. But I want to do that like on steroids. In the Convoy district somehow. 02:47:43.000 --> 02:47:46.000 Like in a multicultural fair? 02:47:46.000 --> 02:48:13.000 Mm-hmm. I want there to be like—I want them to shut down the streets and have a stage there for all different performers, every culture, all the food, different foods you can think of and all that. And kids could come and enjoy it, probably like during Christmas time or something, you know? But I want to do something like that for the city in the near future. (chuckles) But it’s a crazy undertaking. 02:48:13.000 --> 03:47:16.000 Have you spoken to the API (Asian Pacific Islander) Coalition? 03:47:16.000 --> 03:47:18.000 Mmm, I don’t think so. 03:47:18.000 --> 03:47:23.000 Okay. I can connect you if you want to but it’s basically the San Diego Asian API. 03:47:23.000 --> 03:48:38.000 Okay. There’s so many in San Diego that are named like different that are similar. But Nam from the Convoy district just sponsored our event. So, I know he is connected with that area. 03:48:38.000 --> 03:48:40.000 Okay. 03:48:40.000 --> 03:48:47.000 So, I don’t know. I’ll figure it out. But I’m trying to get everyone together to do something basically. I think it should be good. 03:48:47.000 --> 03:48:49.000 Is it Nam from Viet Vote? 03:48:49.000 --> 03:48:54.000 I don’t know. He owns Cross Street Chicken and Beer. 03:48:54.000 --> 03:48:58.000 Oh, okay. Maybe not the same. I don’t know. Okay. I mean that’s a common name, so— 03:48:58.000 --> 03:49:00.000 But my friend Nguyet was in Viet Vote. 03:49:00.000 --> 03:49:01.000 Who? 03:49:01.000 --> 03:49:04.000 Nguyệt (Nguyet). You don’t know Nguyệt Phạm (Nguyet Pham) ? 03:49:04.000 --> 03:49:16.000 I’ve never heard of him. Um, there’s also the—Well, we can talk about this more offline. But there’s also the Oceanside Southern California API Festival coming up next month. I’m on the planning committee for that. 03:49:16.000 --> 03:49:17.000 Sick. 03:49:17.000 --> 03:49:22.000 So, there’s always opportunities to talk to event planners. 03:49:22.000 --> 03:50:55.000 Yeah. I like to go to different—I mean, I would love to have the time. But I like going to all these different events just to see what’s going on, you know what I mean? Where people are doing different—turnout, how people absorb it. I have—I’ve been to a lot of different types of charity events from different cultures. And different initiatives, whether it comes to health or whatever. And it’s all really, really different. For say the really Vietnamese charities, super unorganized. But they always meet their goal. Right? Because everyone knows that they’re there to give money and eat and dance, whatever, sing or whatever. You know, I’ve been to a Japanese one. It was a little more strict, a little more Americanized. It was just too professional in a way. You know what I mean? There was no personal touch to it, like a sense of family. And then, you know, I’ve been to events. The events are different here and Orange County too, very different vibe. And I’m about to go to one hosted by the Ronald McDonald House Charities, which is going to be like the most off-the-wall one that I’m going to be going to. Because it’s super different, you know. There’s this one side for medical purpose for kids, and— 03:50:55.000 --> 03:50:57.000 I used to be a camp counselor for them. 03:50:57.000 --> 03:51:36.000 Yeah. And their organization has been there for forever. And they were super cool with me when I did the toy drive thing with them over Christmas. And you can feel peoples like intentions or ingenuity, you know. When I walked in there, no one talked to me different, anything, you know. We had a full conversation. They were the ones who I talked to a lot about—Because I have a problem with exploitation of—You know, on social media you see those videos where somebody will give like homeless people money and all that. 03:51:36.000 --> 03:51:37.000 Yeah. They’re filming themselves giving. 03:51:37.000 --> 03:52:45.000 Yeah. I don’t like that. But I understand now because of those women at the Ronald McDonald Foundation. Because I told them, when they told me to take a picture in front of the sign or whatever, I’m like “Ah, I don’t need to.” You know? Like it’s not important to me. And she’s like “You have to.” Like why? And she’s like “Because you have to show other people and lead by example. And if you don’t show them, give them the visual on this, then they’re not going to want to give to me or you.” You know what I mean? So, people need that motivator in order to do it. Because there will always be more people inspired by it than are disgusted by it, I guess you could say. So, at that point, I was like “Oh, okay, I’ll take a picture.” (both laugh). Yeah. But, um, yeah, it gave me a different perspective, you know? Because I give people money all the time. But I don’t, you know—I’m not going to write on Facebook like “Oh yeah. It was a good day. I gave this person $100.” Whatever, you know. Yeah, I hate that. (laughs) I hate it a lot. So, where were we going with that? 03:52:45.000 --> 03:52:49.000 Uh, we were talking about—You were telling me about the Foundation. 03:52:49.000 --> 03:54:21.000 The Foundation. Okay. So, yeah, I mean I’ve already had people try to ask me to implement programs at local elementary, middle schools. But I haven’t the slightest clue how—that’s not my field. You know what I mean? I’m sure I can make it happen. But at the moment, I just want to focus on teenagers because that’s what I know. What are—The life that they’re going through, the struggles and everything, I can relate to that most because I was—you know, that wasn’t too long ago for me. Versus I don’t know how the curriculum is in middle schools now. I don’t know how to deal with kids that age. Um, yeah. I was like crazy when I was that age. So, I don’t know. But I do want an, when I do expand, you know, education committee and all that. Hopefully we get there. You know, I’ve always had this weird—Like I guess I second guess myself a lot with, you know, whether—I second guessed whether the organization was going to get anywhere. Or whether people were confused? Or dissuaded by the name? Or the—how the mission wasn’t as romantic as these other ones, whatever. But now I’m finally content with the fact that I’m doing what I know is right and what I’m leaving and, you know, just hope that people are on the same page as me, you know. 03:54:21.000 --> 03:54:25.000 Do you feel like you’ve found your people? Who understand the Foundation? 03:54:25.000 --> 03:54:58.000 Yeah, yeah. I mean it’s the first year and you never know. Of course, everyone’s going to support you. I mean, that’s not true actually. But people want to support you on that first year. And if you do well, then they’ll keep doing it. If you mess up, then you’ll never see them again. So, I mean, it’s been six months and I’ve done okay. So, we’ll see what happens. But anyone that knows me knows that they can trust me and knows that if I do something, it’s going to be the right way. You know what I mean? 03:54:58.000 --> 03:55:02.000 Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say that too. I’m sure you just have to decide and then you’ll just make it happen. 03:55:02.000 --> 03:55:16.000 Yeah. Yeah. Luckily, everyone came together for this and, you know, most people are donating like DJ services, photography, whatever. So, there’s a lot of community getting together for this which is cool. 03:55:16.000 --> 03:55:24.000 That’s great. And the scholarships. Tell me more. Like are these like scholarships for the teenagers to go to college to study art? Or— 03:55:24.000 --> 03:56:45.000 My scholarships actually can be used for like barber school if they want. Yeah. Or any type of technical school. Because a lot of the kids in these neighborhoods, sometimes they don’t have the option or the time to, you know, put all their focus into their studies in high school. Sometimes they have to start working at fifteen, sixteen years old because they’ve got to take care of their family. Or they might need like a $500 scholarship to get an airplane to fly to South Carolina where they’ll be going to school. You know? They might not be able to afford that. Or they might have to help their parents with the one last phone bill or something before they can go off and do their thing. You know? So, that’s what a lot of other scholarship funds, programs, they don’t think about. They don’t think about these other jobs that—like becoming a barber, you know. No one thinks about that. But, you know, you go through a little bit of school and it’ll provide you something to, you know, a tool to use for the rest of your life. Where you can always go back to it if you want to and it can be a very prosperous career if you put your head into it, yeah, just like doing nails. I mean there’s no school for becoming a tattoo artist but, you know— 03:56:45.000 --> 03:56:49.000 Oh. There’s no school for becoming a tattoo artist. I never thought about that. 03:56:49.000 --> 03:57:42.000 Well, technically no. There are here and there. They’re trying to pop up. But they’re very frowned upon. Because it’s literally like a few weeks course or something. And you’ve got to pay a lot of money for it and what do you really learn, you know? I wouldn’t say they hazed apprentices back then, but it was much more difficult. And the caliber that you had to reach was a lot higher than it is now. You know what I mean? Very hard to get into the industry back then, but easy to stand out. And now it’s easy to get in, hard to stand out. Because everyone’s trying to get into it. I’m just lucky I’m like grandfathered in, at this point. I was like the last generation of like the original, like old dudes. Yeah. 03:57:42.000 --> 03:57:43.000 Does that mean you’re an old dude? 03:57:43.000 --> 03:58:16.000 No. (Ho laughs) But most of them were. I was so young. That’s what gave me the advantage. You know, I had more time to grow. A lot of those guys now that had tattooed in the ‘90s, early 2000s, they kind of—they never changed their ways. They never caught up with the times. They’re just so stuck in their old ways and they’re so stubborn that, you know, they just inevitably—their careers just take a dive. 03:58:16.000 --> 03:58:20.000 When you say, “stuck in their old ways,” do you mean like in terms of like technical skills? 03:58:20.000 --> 03:59:48.000 Mm-hmm. That, technology has changed. The tools have changed. You know, you’re not going to catch a 60-year-old tattoo artist posting on social media every day, right? Yeah. I mean that’s where your portfolio is. That’s where everything is now. You’ve got to interact with your customers. If you’re rude or something, it’s going to immediately go on Yelp. And it’s hard. It is really hard for them. Yeah, I have guys I looked up to back then that they’re just—they still—they’re actually tattooing worse now than they used to because, you know, I feel like they’re trying to catch up to these younger guys, their styles and everything, that they just end up losing their own style. And I don’t know, it sucks. But that’s just the way it is now. Either you survive, or you don’t. You know what I mean? But I guess the older guys, their hustler’s mentality was a lot more prominent than the kids now. I don’t think the kids that are getting into it—They’re not built as hard as the tattoo artists that grew up back then. That’s why they’re able to stay in the industry for so long, you know. A lot of kids now, it’s so easy for them to learn how to do it on YouTube, whatever. And then they’ll just give up if they get bored or something. They never really stick with it. 03:59:48.000 --> 03:59:49.000 Okay. 03:59:49.000 --> 04:00:29.000 And then, another thing is back then you didn’t really have any tattoo artists that were like art students in college or something. And now, you have people just graduating out of college and they’re like crazy phenomenal because, you know, they went to art school rather than tattoo school underground somewhere in the basement. Yeah. So, they were frowned upon for a while too. Because it’s like the same thing with the military when people that graduate and become automatically like officers in the Navy or something. And you’ve got other guys who have been there since they were 18 years old and working their way up. Same deal. I mean, I don’t really care. Like if you’re talented, you’re talented. I’ll teach you, you know? 04:00:29.000 --> 04:00:30.000 Okay. 04:00:30.000 --> 04:00:31.000 Yeah. 04:00:31.000 --> 04:00:33.000 So, do you like providing mentorship? 04:00:33.000 --> 04:01:19.000 Um, I did for a while. I just took on my last apprentice. She just got done two months ago. I’m not going to teach anyone else for a while. Yeah. Because it takes up a lot of my time and I don’t feel like it’s fair to take someone on if I don’t have the time to do it. Or my full attention, you know. Yeah. And a lot of people are going—they’re like charging to teach people now. Whereas before, you just earned it. It’s free. They just had to put in the work, like throw out the trash and all that. It's like a full-ride scholarship. But then now, yeah, a lot of artists are charging for apprenticeships which I still don’t agree with that, you know. Yeah. 04:01:19.000 --> 04:01:26.000 So, then, if somebody wanted to become a tattoo artist, really all they need to do is find a mentor who will let them apprentice. 04:01:26.000 --> 04:02:17.000 Yep. And before, it was like one in a million. Now, as long as you have money, you just pay somebody, and they’ll teach you. You know, so it makes—it dilutes the industry a little bit. But I believe if you’re going to—you know, if your work is good enough, you’re always going to stand out. Right? Yeah, but people like Photoshopping fake tattoos online and stuff now too. So, it makes it really weird. Yeah, so people have a unrealistic expectation sometimes of how a tattoo should look, how it should be done. They watch these shows, and they think that’s exactly how it’s going to be. Or the drama and all that. But, I don’t know. I guess the good thing is society doesn’t frown on it anymore, even in Asia. I heard Vietnam has a bunch of tattoo shops now. 04:02:17.000 --> 04:02:19.000 Yeah. I’ve heard that too. 04:02:19.000 --> 04:02:38.000 Yeah. So, that’s a good thing for the industry itself. Because before it was nothing but—people just looked at it as bikers, gangsters, and basically all the bad people in the world was a tattooed people, you know. 04:02:38.000 --> 04:02:41.000 Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds very different now. 04:02:41.000 --> 04:02:44.000 Mm-hmm. Even you have tattoos. (laughs) 04:02:44.000 --> 04:02:57.000 Even I do! Um, okay (pause) I have like six more questions. But like we’ve been sitting here a while, so I don’t want to wear you out completely. 04:02:57.000 --> 04:02:58.000 What’s the questions? 04:02:58.000 --> 04:03:20.000 Tell me—I want to know how you’ve grown. Like what are some big lessons you’ve learned? And I don’t necessarily mean from childhood to adulthood. But it could be within the last week, or within the last decade. Like how have you grown? You’ve grown a lot because of what you went through as a kid, but — 04:03:20.000 --> 04:05:33.000 I don’t know. That’s a hard question. I guess I’ve learned not to expect anything from anybody, you know. For example, okay, let’s say you’re my apprentice today. You’re my student, okay? Let’s say I help you grow. I help you, you know, establish this career for yourself that’s going to help you out for the rest of your life. And you’re doing that with me. I’m helping you for two years and then you’re finally done, right? My—Most people would say, “Oh, oh you owe me. I did this for you. And, you know, you’ve got to work for me for this amount of years and I’m going to ruin you if you leave.” All that stuff. But that’s not me. You know, I was able to see that from a third person point of view while seeing my business partner think that way of my employees, you know. So, I’m glad that I was able to see that because, basically, you know, people grow, and people move on. You can’t expect somebody to be there no matter what. And, basically, it’d be detrimental to their own success just because they feel they owe you something? It doesn’t make sense. So, I’m glad I learned that early on because that’s helped me a lot in dealing with artists that work for me and respecting them and understanding that nothing is forever, you know. And you’ve always got to be ready for them to grow. And that’s fine. And you should be there to help them grow rather than, you know, rather than step down on them. And, you know, as long as you put that energy out there, everything goes good, you know. And people don’t want to stay because they’re forced to. They want to stay because they want to, right? That applies to everything, relationships, you know, everything. 04:05:33.000 --> 04:05:50.000 I guess, when you’re talking throughout this whole time, and when I met you, I get a sense of contentment as you said, but also confidence in your future, because of these bricks that you’re laying out. Like you seem very confident that everything will turn out the way it should. 04:05:50.000 --> 04:05:51.000 Yes. 04:05:51.000 --> 04:05:54.000 Does that feel right to you? Or do you still doubt? 04:05:54.000 --> 04:08:43.000 Mmm, yes and no. But even if I doubt myself, I’m a problem solver. So, I don’t—My wife always tells me like “Oh, you won’t tell me what you’re going through.” Or whatever. I’d say because if I don’t have a solution, then there’s no point in talking about it. Because talking about it is not going to make me come to the solution. I’d rather use the time worrying about it to come up with a way to solve it. You know, I’m very–I’m good at compartmentalizing my thoughts. So, that’s why I can work on like thirty things at the same time and I’m fine. Whereas other people would go freaking crazy, right. But I’m used to that because I’ve always been so interested in so many things. And I’ve always told people as a tattoo artist, it was really hard for me to be good at the beginning stages because I was trying to do everything. Because the artists now, they specialize in one thing and one thing only. Like, you know, one guy might be a portrait artist, but he might suck with line work or something. One guy might do American traditional tattoos and he sucks at shading. One guy does Asian work, and he has no clue how to do like very fine line stuff. And, you know, that path for them was the correct path for them. And it might have only taken them a year or two, whatever, if that’s all they were doing. Whereas me, I was trying to do lettering, Chicano work, Asian work, realism. I was trying to do all of it at the same time in a parallel fashion, so, it took me a lot longer to master all of them at the same time. That’s the same way I am for business, like trying to navigate my tattoo business. Trying to navigate my clothing line. Helping my wife with her beauty line. Doing a non-profit. (laughs) And, yeah, doing everything else too. So, it’s definitely crazy. But, you know, I encounter problems here and there and little hiccups. But I work through it. I solve it, you know. There’s no point in—I just feel like people waste too much time worrying about things that haven’t happened or may not ever happen. Yeah. There’s no time, basically. Time is the most precious thing that you have. You can’t get it back. You can’t make more of it. Yep. So, people ask me why I stay up so late every day. Why I wake up so early. Why I’m doing so much. And honestly, it’s because I’m already—I’m turning 33. So, I only have maybe, I don’t know, fifteen years before my business dies down a little bit, maybe popularity. So, I have to make my mark now to buy myself more years. You know what I mean? 04:08:43.000 --> 04:08:47.000 Yeah. Yeah, you’re investing in future you, it sounds like. 04:08:47.000 --> 04:08:48.000 Yep. 04:08:48.000 --> 04:09:09.000 Okay. Going back to the styles of art, is there any style or anything that you wish you could do more of? I mean, I’ve seen what you get a lot of. 04:09:09.000 --> 04:09:10.000 Mmm, not really. I mean, I like to do everything. That’s the problem. That’s why my waiting list is so long. I take on every project that comes to me. It’s really rare where I’ll say “Aw, I can’t do it.” 04:09:10.000 --> 04:09:12.000 Why would you say no to someone? 04:09:12.000 --> 04:10:13.000 If it’s like a dumb idea, or one that—Like I had a guy come in one time. And—it was a white guy—he had a consultation with me. He wanted a Buddha tattooed on him, right? And he was wearing like a cross necklace, so I knew he wasn’t Buddhist. But he wanted a Buddha tattoo on him, and I asked him where he wanted it. And he said on his leg. And I’m like “You can’t get it on your leg. It’s like disrespectful.” And he said he wanted bud leaves like around it, like marijuana leaves. And I’m like “Okay.” (laughs) Like that makes no sense. And I’m like “I don’t know if I’m the right guy for you, for that.” But, yeah, usually, you know, it’s hard because if you say no, then you’re rejecting a customer. And if you say yes, then you’re going against your own like morals. So, the only thing I can do is drive them away with my price. So, I told him I was going to charge him like $3,000 or something. And he said no. That’s it. 04:10:13.000 --> 04:10:14.000 Okay. 04:10:14.000 --> 04:10:25.000 So, it doesn't make me the bad guy. But that’s how you turn those things. But yeah. Ideas like that. Or people want to get each other’s names and they’ve only been together for like a week. I don’t do those. 04:10:25.000 --> 04:10:26.000 Do people ask you for that? 04:10:26.000 --> 04:10:43.000 Yeah. Yeah. But I usually make them wait, wait about two years. And I’ll give them like a ridiculous price too, you know. For them to think about it a second time. Usually, they break up within the next few months. (Ho laughs) Yeah. It happens a lot. 04:10:43.000 --> 04:10:44.000 Oh my god. 04:10:44.000 --> 04:10:48.000 Yep. That’s why we don’t take walk-ins. Because people make those irrational decisions, you know. 04:10:48.000 --> 04:10:51.000 Mmm. Okay. Yeah. 04:10:51.000 --> 04:10:53.000 (chuckles) We’re responsible. 04:10:53.000 --> 04:11:09.000 Right. This is going to be a weird question. But you’re pretty open about your past. And you’re writing this memoir. It’s going to be published. 04:11:09.000 --> 04:11:10.000 Yeah. 04:11:10.000 --> 04:11:16.000 And your family knows that you share all this info. 04:11:16.000 --> 04:13:20.000 Mmm, I don’t know. I don’t know if they’re even interested. That’s the weird thing. I mean, they know that I do interviews and articles and stuff. But they’re just kind of like—Like I said. It’s nothing new to them. In their brain, they’re just like “Oh, yeah. He’s doing that. That’s cool.” You know. I guess they just don’t get excited about anything. So, I don’t even know. I don’t think my brother knows I’m writing a book. But I actually don’t want my family to read my book because it’s going to—I mean, I know what it’s about. I know how it’s going to affect them. But they don’t know that yet. And like if they read it, it’s going to mess them up, you know. Because it’s not like a blame game, type of calling people out thing. It’s just–it’s the truth, you know. And I’ve never told the truth in a very raw way, like I’m going to do in there. I’ve always kind of like made it more from a broad statement or gave people little details here and there. But that thing—what I’m writing is pretty much uncut, all the way. Yeah. It was pretty crazy to write it. Because I haven’t—Some of the thoughts that I wrote about in there, I haven’t thought about it for, you know, twenty or thirty years. Not thirty years, but twenty, twenty-five years or so. So, it was weird. I even had to stop midway because it was too much for me. Like overwhelming wise. So, I stopped. I haven’t written in it. I haven’t written for about eight months. Yeah. I had my editor edit what I have so far, though. And I haven’t even looked at that yet. I’m just kind of like—I’m all over the place right now. But I feel like when the time is right, I’m going to sit down and finish it, you know. Because the half-book that I wrote which is already 35,000 words or something, I wrote all that within like two weeks. And that’s it. Yeah. So, whenever I get that urge again to do it, I’m pretty sure I’m just going to knock it out. 04:13:20.000 --> 04:13:24.000 So, what gives you that urge, that motivation? 04:13:24.000 --> 04:14:34.000 I don’t know. That’s the weird thing. Yeah. I just kind of know when the time is right, you know. Yeah, it’s weird. I guess when everything else kind of settles down, I’ll be able to focus my thoughts more on that. Because right now, I’m doing like these news interview articles in—and it’s all kind of similar themed. So, I’m having to use my words and my energy to do those interviews. And then, by the time I’m ready to write my book, I can’t really—you know, I don’t want to keep repeating because I get bored easily. So, if I keep repeating that same thought like all week, I’ll be like when I’m writing it, I’m going to feel bored. Therefore, I feel like my reader is going to feel bored. But, I mean, I know that’s not the case. Because the reader has never read it before. But, you know, that’s like me making freaking boiled eggs every day for three days, you know. It’s—If I’m not interested in it, I’m not going to want to make it interesting or sound interesting. And I end up going back and changing everything anyway. I’m very hard on myself. 04:14:34.000 --> 04:14:36.000 Well, yeah. Yeah. You are. 04:14:36.000 --> 04:15:11.000 Yeah. (chuckles) I’m super particular. So, everything has to be perfect or close to perfect, pretty much. Because people—growing up, people always expected the worst from me, you know what I mean? Or the minimum, because of what I went through. So, now everything that I do has to go above and beyond what people expect. Right? And that’s that pressure, especially the pressure that your parents kind of—They kind of like instill that in you, growing up here in America. So, yeah. 04:15:11.000 --> 04:15:30.000 You do a lot of giving. Like you do things for your community. You give money. You do interviews like this or with the news outlets or whatever. Your work with the Model Minority Project. You really give a lot of yourself. 04:15:30.000 --> 04:15:32.000 Yeah. I try. 04:15:32.000 --> 04:15:34.000 And you expect a lot of yourself. 04:15:34.000 --> 04:16:18.000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I have my brother to thank for that. He was—He’s tried to be as well-rounded his whole life and tried to show me like who I should be, what I should do, what I should strive to be, you know what I mean? And although I am—the way I grew up is totally different from him, I still kind of—I’m in the same place now. You know, it’s weird. This guy used to make me study the dictionary every day, right? And so, I would have to learn two words from the dictionary and remember it. And I would have to tell him what they were every night. And if I forgot, then he would kick me out of the house, at like six, seven years old. 04:16:18.000 --> 04:16:20.000 Wow! Would you ever forget? 04:16:20.000 --> 04:16:47.000 I forgot once. But then I remembered after I was outside for like two hours. Yeah. (laughs) So, he would do that. I would never want to ask him for help on homework because every time I had one problem, he would create twenty more problems to make sure I would never have that problem again. So, yeah. (laughs) So, that’s what I did. So, perfection is what I always strive for pretty much. Mm-hmm. 04:16:47.000 --> 04:16:49.000 And do you feel like you accomplish it? 04:16:49.000 --> 04:19:04.000 Mmm, I don’t know. Who really knows. You know what I mean? That’s a hard one. I think I’ve–I’m the best in—I don’t know how to explain this. I guess I made the best of what I had, to its maximum potential. Yeah. And now I’m in a place where I can expand on that, you know. For so long, I only dealt with my own people, friends, community, and the tattoo community. And I wasn’t able to break through the walls of like everybody else. And now, I’m finally like there. So, it can only go up from here, I guess. But in a different way. I knew I couldn’t get to everybody by being a tattoo artist or purely a tattoo artist. Having people see me as an artist, though, it expanded the audience a little more. And now that the non-profit is in the picture, it’s going to—things are going to be different for the better, you know. I’m able to amplify the voices of kids. I’m able to bring attention to how important like cultural, our cultural arts are, and kind of give hope in a time where everyone is just thinking about nothing but negativity and all the craziness going on in the world, you know. Like I never put anything out there that’s negative. I don’t post like negative quotes online or shame anybody or anything. That’s just not who I am. I believe the best revenge is kindness. You know, it doesn’t matter how society looks at you. It’s not your job to force them to respect you or any of that. It is your job to change the, I guess, the perspective. Change the taboos. Yeah. I think that was about it. (laughs) 04:19:04.000 --> 04:19:06.000 Okay. Okay. 04:19:06.000 --> 04:19:08.000 What else you got? 04:19:08.000 --> 04:19:30.000 Okay. So, three more questions. I’m not making any more notes because I keep thinking of things. Actually, four questions. Okay, then I’m done. What do people not know about you? You’re so open about everything. What’s something we don’t know yet. 04:19:30.000 --> 04:19:32.000 Mmm. I don’t know. 04:19:32.000 --> 04:19:34.000 (laughs) You’re like “I can’t share for a reason.” 04:19:34.000 --> 04:20:53.000 Well, one thing people don’t know really—Most people that look the most put together or they look like they know what they’re doing, usually don’t know what they’re doing, you know. I—When I get into—Obviously, you can’t—You can study, you know, airplanes all day. Like you can know every part on a airplane. You can do simulations. You can do all that. But that doesn’t mean you’re going to be able to fly the airplane. You got to—You don’t know until you get on. That’s the same thing in business or life, everything else, you know. I guess everything that I talk about, I’ve done already rather than I’m going to do, you know. I rarely talk about like “Oh, yeah. You know, I’m going to go—I’m going to buy a Ferrari next year.” Or something. Like everything that I try to teach people in order to help them is stuff that I’ve already been through, you know. And I’ve—Mistakes I’ve already made or what not. I’m not going to sell somebody something that, you know, I didn’t buy myself. But yeah. I think that’s my biggest secret. You just—You don’t know what you’re getting into until you do it. Most of the time when I get into something, I have no clue what I’m doing, you know. You just kind of figure it out along the way. 04:20:53.000 --> 04:21:01.000 Yeah. Okay. Okay. That’s a good segue into my next question. What is next for you? What haven’t you done that you want to do? 04:21:01.000 --> 04:21:04.000 Mmm, I don’t know. I don’t think there’s anything— 04:21:04.000 --> 04:21:06.000 Even just like—Really? 04:21:06.000 --> 04:21:10.000 Yeah. I don’t think there’s anything that I want. I mean, I want to do like crazy stuff. So— 04:21:10.000 --> 04:21:13.000 Tell me. Like even just like a vacation that you haven’t taken yet. 04:21:13.000 --> 04:21:15.000 I’m not really into vacations. 04:21:15.000 --> 04:21:16.000 Okay. You’re a workaholic. 04:21:16.000 --> 04:22:07.000 Because they—I feel like they put me further behind. And that stresses me out even more when I get back. That’s the problem. I’ll take a vacation for two, three days but if I do a week, then I have a week of people to respond to, too many projects to do. And it just, it makes me, it messes up my rhythm. You know what I mean? Like I can’t stop my momentum when I have it. Well, I have it all the time, but when I do have it like in a great amount, I can’t just “Oh, I’m going to take three days and not do anything and come back.” It actually makes me—It messes up my mind. It makes me like depressed. It—I don’t know. I don’t know how to explain it. When I’m home for more than two days, I feel like I didn’t do anything, I’m useless and all that. That’s crazy. 04:22:07.000 --> 04:22:09.000 Do you ever rest then? 04:22:09.000 --> 04:22:40.000 I do. I mean I’m a very—I’m more keen on consistency than, you know—I’ll do like four or five days—I mean four or five days—four or five hours of sleep every day. That’s all I really need. And then I’ll go through my routine, you know. I mean my routine might not be the same every day. Obviously, I have different tattoos every day. Sometimes, I’ll have five, ten minutes here and there and I’ll try and do my other like microtasks in between. But I always get everything done. So— 04:22:40.000 --> 04:22:48.000 Okay. Okay. Two more questions. What are you the most proud of that you’ve done? 04:22:48.000 --> 04:25:02.000 Mmm, it’s probably establishing my non-profit. Because it’s—I, when I started tattooing, it was purely about my survival. I needed money, you know. And as I was able to make money off of it—you know, as your early twenties, you really don’t know what your purpose is. You don’t think about, you know, the 401k and all that. And you’re not taught that in the neighborhood either. You’re not taught how to spend your money, how to invest. I used all my financial aid on like car parts, okay. It’s like $7,000 worth. And I don’t even have that car anymore. But it was dumb. But no one told me it was dumb, right? So, I kept trying to find a purpose. And that purpose always changed. I mean, you know, it could have been like nice cars which I got, and I got bored of. It didn’t make me happy. It could have been like buying the most expensive food. I’ve tried all of it, didn’t make me happy. It became, you know, teaching others how to make a career for themselves. And that was–that made me happy. So, I was just like “Okay. What do I do when tattooing itself is not enough?” So, that’s when I needed another purpose. And that purpose was building other people like me, basically, yeah, to hopefully come together. And, you know, by me giving to them hopefully they do the same in return for the next generation after them. Because every—we’re losing our—I think we’re losing our culture right now. I think that the kids are just too lazy and uninterested. And parents are feeding into it, I guess you could say. I see more and more the parents are having to learn how to speak English to communicate with their kids, rather than their kids having to learn Vietnamese to communicate with their parents, right? 04:25:02.000 --> 04:25:03.000 Okay, yes. 04:25:03.000 --> 04:26:47.000 And even my cousin. My cousin came here—he’s my age—he came here when he was 12 from Vietnam. He doesn’t even understand Vietnamese today. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And he lives in Chula Vista. It’s not like, you know—he’s not in the Midwest or anything. So, yeah, we’re losing it. My Lion dance group disbanded because the kids just—they won’t want to do it anymore. They’re not interested in it anymore. But yeah. It’s like a epidemic, right now, pretty much. Especially in San Diego, you know, where, you know, there’s a mix. There’s a lot of Asians here but there is not predominantly Asian. We’re suffering a lot from it. I feel like a lot of non-profits are going through it, though. Because I have a client who runs a dance, a little dance non-profit company for, you know, young kids at Balboa Park. And she tells me every year there’s less and less people. And the less people there are, the less board members are there going to be because of the parents. And then no parents means there’s not a lot of programs which means no donors for programs because they don’t have it. And then eventually it just evaporates. You know what I mean? But, I mean, the good thing is—the good thing that came from this AAPI movement is we came together. We established a new cycle of initiatives that will last, you know, for how long. I don’t know how long it’s going to last. I guess as long as this is a problem for us, which is going to be forever. But you know people forget. And then people move on. And then something else has to happen. And it just starts all over again. It’s just like war, you know. 04:26:47.000 --> 04:26:51.000 That’s a good analogy. 04:26:51.000 --> 04:27:16.000 Mm-hmm. So, when does it really stop? And I don’t like the fact that some non-profits that I’ve seen, they just try to create more problems to solve when, you know, they run out of funding or something. I don’t know. It’s weird. I’m always torn with that. Like what does an organization do when everything is solved? Right? (laughs) 04:27:16.000 --> 04:27:17.000 Yeah. That’s a good question. 04:27:17.000 --> 04:27:20.000 It’s like what’s a military contract going to do when the war is over? 04:27:20.000 --> 04:27:23.000 Right. In peace time. Yeah. 04:27:23.000 --> 04:27:43.000 Yeah. So, it’s a very great thing but I feel like some people take advantage of it and those people make it look bad for everybody else. Right? Just like with tattoo artists. Some guys are knuckleheads and make everyone else look bad. Yeah. So, that’s why I always—I get pulled over walking all the time. (laughs) 04:27:43.000 --> 04:27:44.000 Because of the way you look. 04:27:44.000 --> 04:28:07.000 Yep. Yep. But that’s okay. Because I’m always polite. Whatever. I never give them a hard time. And I would pull myself over if I looked like this. You know, right? So, that’s how it’s going to be for a while ‘til things change, ‘til I like make a big donation to the police or something. (both laughs) That’s how it all works. 04:28:07.000 --> 04:28:27.000 So, you mentioned the kids losing the culture. That’s a good segue into my last question. So, you have a new granddaughter. What do you want for her in terms of this world she lives in, and also community and culture? 04:28:27.000 --> 04:29:56.000 Well, interestingly, she’s Black and Asian. So, she’s going to have a very interesting, you know, take on the world. I want her to absorb both cultures, obviously. And celebrate it. And, I mean, my wife is pretty Americanized. But she still has her, you know, Asian cooking roots, traditions. Even though she’s the one that was born here in her family, and the youngest, she’s the only one who knows how to do like the traditional stuff, which is weird. And me too. I’m the only one who cúngs (cungs, ancestor worship rituals, Vietlish) and stuff. And my brother’s the one who was born in Vietnam. So, I mean we can obviously like teach her those things. Have her grow up in that environment. And then my stepdaughter’s boyfriend’s mom, she’s very, you know, she’s a very proud Black woman as well. I’m sure she’ll teach her everything she needs to know about what to look out for and all that. So, yeah, it should be interesting. I just want—I mean, she’s in this area. So, it’s not that bad. I mean, we’re really accepting. Everyone here is pretty much mixed now. And everyone respects each other. I mean, we respect each other’s food, cultures, all that. We celebrate it here. So, I don’t think it’s too crazy down here. As long as she doesn’t go to anywhere else, we're good. 04:29:56.000 --> 04:29:59.000 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 04:29:59.000 --> 04:30:07.000 Yeah. But I want her to be aware who she is, where she comes from. Yeah. So— 04:30:07.000 --> 04:30:13.000 Is there anything I should have asked that I didn’t ask? Or is there anything else that you want to say? 04:30:13.000 --> 04:30:38.000 Mmm, I don’t know. I think we covered everything. What else? Oh, in regards to the kids now not being motivated by culture and stuff. Well, I feel like for the longest time, you know, there’s teachers—Asian teachers look a certain way. Parents— 04:30:38.000 --> 04:30:40.000 You mean like schoolteachers? 04:30:40.000 --> 04:32:32.000 Yeah. Parents look a certain way, have a certain way of thinking, whatever. And I look different. Okay? So, I feel like they may absorb it differently coming from me. Because I knew when I was in my Lion’s Dance group, all the kids, you know, they thought they were so cool because I’m tatted and everything. And I was doing this thing with them, you know. And I was older than them and they looked up to that, right? So, I feel like it’s the same way with, you know, if I go to the high school auditorium and speak to the kids. They’re going to take it differently than if some, you know, let’s say like an Asian engineer or something came and talked to them, right? Because they can’t connect with those people. People who have taken a different path, pretty much. Because most of these kids that I’m trying to help, they’ve never thought about college in their life. Because they never thought it was an option. Nor did they think any of these careers that I’m trying to make them aware of exist either, you know. So, we want to do a career workshop sometime in the future where there would be let’s say a station on photography, and one on graphic design, one on barbering, one on, I don’t know, fashion or something. So, we want to make all that available so that these kids understand what they’re getting into before they go into it. Because half of the time, when you check off that major box for college, you don’t know what you’re about to do. Right? And you might go to school for, you know, four years to be a graphic designer and realize like there’s no jobs in it, or you hate it. All right? So, it’s good to have insight into that before you sign up and spend all your money on that. 04:32:32.000 --> 04:32:35.000 Yeah. So, you want to do like a career fair type of thing, you said? 04:32:35.000 --> 04:32:41.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I want to do that like once every season or something. Yeah. 04:32:41.000 --> 04:32:44.000 Like tailored towards teenagers. 04:32:44.000 --> 04:32:51.000 The arts only. Yeah, so high school seniors. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Don’t know how I’m doing it yet, but we’ll see. 04:32:51.000 --> 04:32:52.000 I’m sure you’ll find a way. 04:32:52.000 --> 04:33:00.000 Um, Thao said there’s a lot of libraries and stuff that offer their space or something. So, I’m like “Alright.” We’ll see. 04:33:00.000 --> 04:33:01.000 Yeah. Okay. 04:33:01.000 --> 04:33:13.000 Yeah. It’s just, I need someone to talk to them. But I’ve got to feel people out because if they’re not ready to see somebody like me when I approach them, then it’s very interesting where it ends up. (laughs) 04:33:13.000 --> 04:33:16.000 Well, I have connections in the library world— 04:33:16.000 --> 04:33:17.000 Oh, that’s nice. Yeah. I’ll let you know. 04:33:17.000 --> 04:33:20.000 —being a librarian. So— 04:33:20.000 --> 04:33:24.000 Yeah. My brother worked at the Linda Vista Library for twelve years. 04:33:24.000 --> 04:33:25.000 That’s awesome. 04:33:25.000 --> 04:33:35.000 Mm-hmm. I used to go there all the time with him. Because I had to go to work with him. And I used to sit there and just read books all day as a kid. Yeah. That’s why I don’t read now. (laughs) 04:33:35.000 --> 04:33:36.000 (laughs) You had enough! 04:33:36.000 --> 04:33:40.000 Yeah. I hate reading, but I’m writing a book which is ironic— 04:33:40.000 --> 04:33:41.000 Yeah, very ironic. 04:33:41.000 --> 04:33:55.000 —but I like to read things that are relevant to—more like non-fiction, like the news or something. I’m not really a fantasy guy. Because I don’t like living in a fantasy. (both laugh) 04:33:55.000 --> 04:33:57.000 Is the Linda Vista Library still there? 04:33:57.000 --> 04:33:58.000 Mm-hmm. 04:33:58.000 --> 04:34:00.000 Do you think about your time there every time you drive by? 04:34:00.000 --> 04:34:03.000 I volunteered there when I was thirteen for like a year. 04:34:03.000 --> 04:34:04.000 Cool. 04:34:04.000 --> 04:34:15.000 I was trying to work there, but they didn’t want to hire me. It’s a city job. So, it’s like they couldn’t hire anyone under a certain age anymore, I think, at the time. 04:34:15.000 --> 04:34:16.000 Okay. I think it’s sixteen. 04:34:16.000 --> 04:34:27.000 Yeah. Because when my brother was working there in the ‘90s, I think like ’94, ’95, he was getting paid a lot, like $12 an hour. At sixteen years old. 04:34:27.000 --> 04:34:28.000 That’s good. 04:34:28.000 --> 04:34:29.000 Yeah. That’s ridiculous. 04:34:29.000 --> 04:34:34.000 Yeah. Yeah. I was making $5.75 when I was sixteen. 04:34:34.000 --> 04:34:35.000 Oh, yeah? 04:34:35.000 --> 04:34:38.000 Yeah. That was in the mid-90s, I think. Yeah. 04:34:38.000 --> 05:34:37.000 Yeah. That was crazy. He only worked maybe three days a week. And that was enough for him to go on dates and stuff. So, yeah. That’s my life. 05:34:37.000 --> 05:34:49.000 Okay. Is there anything else you want to add before we— 05:34:49.000 --> 05:34:52.000 I think that’s it that I can think of. 05:34:52.000 --> 05:34:56.000 Okay. Well, thank you for sharing your thoughts. 05:34:56.000 --> 05:34:57.000 No worries. 05:34:57.000 --> 05:35:00.000 And doing this for the community. All right. 05:35:00.000 --> 05:35:05.000 So, what’s next? You’re going to get a few on there and build a website? 05:35:05.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Yes. We are going to—(recording ends). NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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Title
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Doan, Dennis "Dizzy". Interview March 6, 2023.
Description
An account of the resource
Dennis "Dizzy" Doan is a Vietnamese American tattoo artist, writer and philanthropist in San Diego, California. In this interview, he speaks on his family and upbringing, as well as how he got his start in the tattoo industry. Doan also shares his motivation for starting his non-profit organization, The Doan Foundation.
Identifier
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SC027-110
Date
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2023-03-06
Format
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video
Creator
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Dennis Doan
Contributor
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Jennifer Ho
Subject
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Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Ethnic identity; Tattoo artists; Philanthropy
Coverage
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San Diego (Calif.); Vietnam
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a>
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Dennis Doan
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Children of Refugees
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4bcd8ed877ea09e7427c82b1554dcd38.pdf
1d119ec1d00bab23677c754d035b658b
PDF Text
Text
Diana Salvidar
TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-14
Madeleine Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing
Diana Saldivar at California State University San Marcos for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History
Project. The date is Friday, April 14th, 2023, and the time is 11:57. I'd like to start with asking you a little
bit about yourself. Where did you grow up and what was your early life like?
Diana Saldivar: Ooh, that's a long question (both laugh). That's gonna be a long answer. How long do we
have? Um, I actually was born here in San Diego, California on a military, one of the military bases. I
don't know exactly which one. My mom forgot to give me those details, but all I know is that the
hospital is now torn down. So I know it doesn't exist anymore, but I assume it was either 32nd or one of
the Navy bases down south. Because I didn't know, we lived in North Park for a little bit, from there,
because my dad's military career, we moved several places across, the West Coast. So I've been to
Fallon, Nevada, San Francisco, Treasure Island, back to San Diego, Hawaii. And then once my dad retired,
he retired at Camp Pendleton here in Oceanside. So I ended up being around probably fourteen, fifteen
(years old). So right in the middle of my middle school, high school years is when I came to kind of be
more of a, a transplant to San Diego. So--it was definitely still different from me, (laughs) for me from
moving from San Francisco to a really big, you know, metropolitan city with a lot of diversity to
Oceanside, which was very (laughs), in development still.
Meyer: Um-Hm.
Saldivar: So that was a big challenge. And then also because of me moving around to so many schools, I
think I went to eight or nine schools by the time I was fifteen.
Meyer: Wow.
Saldivar: So it wasn't like I grew up having solid friends, grew up with them during grade school and
things like that. It was always a lot of transition. So me entering high school, middle school when
everybody has friends since they were like second grade in kindergarten, that was very different for me.
Fortunately, I was able to find my own community. I was able to find other, military transplants. So we
just kind of found each other in a sense. So, I ended up graduating high school at Vista High, in 2000, oh
(both laugh) that's so long ago. We just even had our 20th, annual, reunion. It was delayed because of
the pandemic (COVID-19).
Meyer: Right
Saldivar: So it was 21(st annual reunion), which made it feel so much worse (laughs). So I graduated in
Vista High and, I didn't really know what to do. I mean, I was kind of one of those, I was a first
generation, what do you call it? Immigrant child who, my parents did some college, but it was more like
vocational college. They didn't really understand the full traditional college career, how to get there. So I
had a lot of high school counselors. They kind of helped with, you know, what are your thoughts about
going into, you know, college, have you thought of, you know, applying and things like that. And it never
really crossed my mind. I was just kind of going as it goes. But I ended up applying to San Diego State,
Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos and one other college. Because of my dad's military career, he was able to
get the GA or, the VA Bill (Veterans Affairs, often referred as GI Bill). So I was able to use it as his
dependent, which was nice because affording college was just out of the question and having that nice
little package was so good (laughs). So I had to stay in California, so I was very limited to where I could
go. And I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I was like, you know, “Let's just go to Cal State San
Transcribed by Geneva
Martinot
1
2023-11-13
�Diana Salvidar
TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-14
Marcos. It's close to home (laughs).” You know, I didn't really understand the whole, let's research and
let's look at this and that and things. I'm just like, okay, I'll just go to college and put, I don't know, well
non-major and stuff like that. And then, you know, I ended up being here, started 2000, dropped--got
kicked out (both laugh) 2002 because I didn't meet the math requirement (laughs). I'm not sure if they
still have that here, but as an undergrad you had to meet an English and math requirement. I definitely
met the English because I did IB (International Baccalaureate) English, like honors English, but I was
terrible at math, and I don't know why I was taking math classes at seven o'clock in the morning (Meyer
laughs). So that was terrible setup for me. So then I ended up going to Palomar Community College for a
couple years to get myself back on track, doing the, IGETC (Intersegmental General Education Transfer
Curriculum) program. And probably by 2004 I found myself back here at Cal State San Marcos, you
know, with a brand new focus, more (of an) understanding of what I wanted to do. Finally declared a
major and two minors, like a crazy person. Like why would I wanna be the school more? I don't know. I
ended up then graduating in the winter, or yet fall of 2007, but I walked, spring 2008, which was great
because it felt really nice to kind of be able to represent my family, kind of being the first gen(eration)
going across. And then it was like, what do I do now? And then I ended up going to San Diego State for
my grad program, but that in itself wasn't even planned.
Meyers: Um-Hm.
Saldivar: This is kind of how my life has been.
Meyers: Yeah.
Saldivar: It just doesn't get planned. It just happens. Which is probably not a great (laughs) way to live
life sometimes, unless you have a goal. It was my mentor, Dilcie Perez from the Cross-Cultural Center, or
actually just kind of the student activities area and where she looked at me and she's like, “Did you ever
think about making this a career?” And I was like, “What, I could get paid for this?” (both laugh). So that
was kind of pretty much how it all happened in, the three months before I was graduating, I went to a
info session about higher education programs and kind of figuring out that you could work with
students, these are things that you could do to build your, your career in, in the collegiate setting. And I
was like, oh, okay. I'll apply to of course, a California state school because that's how I can afford
(laughs). And you know, still on my dad's, VA. Ended up getting in the San Diego State program. And so
right after, the fall semester, I had a semester off because of the way that the, the, the calendar,
schedule was laid out. So I had some work experience. So I ended up getting some work experience at
the--oh my gosh. St. Paul? No, not St. Paul's. Oh my gosh. Father Joe's. Oh, my I’m like why I’m saying St.
Paul's.
Meyer: Yeah. Yeah.
Saldivar: The Father Joe's Villages. I ended up, being a vocational counselor there for a couple months.
And then I moved on to do my grad program at San Diego State. And then this was the longest title ever.
Let me, let me see if I can get it right. Masters (laughs) of Arts in Higher Education with a Specialization
in Student Affairs Administration.
Meyer: Wow.
Transcribed by Geneva
Martinot
2
2023-11-13
�Diana Salvidar
TRASNCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2023-04-14
Saldivar: Yeah (both laugh). You should see what it looks like on the degree (Meyer laughs). It's like, my
gosh, what did it say? I'm like, just higher ed. Just, just say higher ed.
Meyer: Just put et cetera at the end.
Saldivar: Right. And (both laugh) everything's an acronym. So yeah, I went to San Diego State, got do-done, and then I graduated in 2010, when the economy was just (blows raspberry, gives thumbs down
gesture).
Meyer: Yeah.
Saldivar: So it was a terrible time-Meyer: Yeah.
Saldivar: To graduate because education was literally redlined. Nobody was hiring. People were, either
being laid off or decreased (furloughed) and things like that. So I, it was, it was a difficult time because,
you know, I grew up with that mentality, especially that, first gen mentality that if you go to college and
you get these degrees, you're going to get a good job at the end. You're gonna get paid well, you're
gonna be able to buy a house and all these other things, which is a very, you know, generational
(laughs), you understand. We're like, yeah, here, we're now still paying rent.
Meyer: Yeah
Saldivar: So it was, it was very, it was very humbling. At the same time it was, it was an eye-opener to
the reality of like, this is not really the American dream that I was fed to believe in a sense. If that'll, you
know, if you're educated, you'll be much more successful, whatever that looks like in that terminology. I
would say at least, probably 80 to 85% of our class did not end up in higher ed.
Meyer: Um-Hm.
Saldivar: They only got in if they were already doing an internship and then was already kind of luckily
able to find funding to continue that internship into a part-time or, uh, what do you call it? A contracted
job? So it wasn't even like they were full on (jobs). It was, you know, you're, we could, we could help
keep you on for another year. And it was like yearly basis until they finally, leveled out and then got the
full-time benefit stuff. So that's what happened to a lot of my, cohort, either they all ended up going
home to where they, came from and then going into nonprofit or some type of K-12 (Kindergartentwelfth grade) education prep program. So we tried to find jobs, or I definitely tried to find jobs that
could still, you know, help hone in my skills that are transferrable to get back into higher ed. But it took a
long time to do that. So, I mean that's kind of more of my, educational professional side (laughs) about
me. I guess, on a more personal side, I'm the first born of two. So I have a younger brother, two years
younger than me. I, you know, grew up, like I said, all over the place. My parents are, my mom is from
the Philippines and then my dad's Chinese. So he's from China, Hong Kong. They both immigrated to the
states probably when they were fifteen, sixteen.
Meyer: Wow.
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Saldivar: Yeah. So they were like teenagers. So they still kind of had deep cultural ties to their
homelands, but then also was at that point in where they were at school, where they could become
more acclimated to their American culture and things like that. So I kind of, I wanted to be, say like, I'm
one and a half, two generation kind of in a sense where they understood some of, you know, American
norms and values and things like that, but at the same time had that duality of, how do we stay
culturally close to ourselves and things like that. So it, growing up I still kind of, you know, butt heads in,
in a sense (laughs) with my parents.
Meyer: Yeah.
Saldivar: Like, well, that's not how I feel doing that now.
Meyer: Yeah
Saldivar: You know? I mean, even my grandma had immigrated later on and so, I had a lot of my family
in the Bay Area. The San Francisco, San Jose, or Stockton area. And my Chinese grandma, R.I.P. (Rest In
Peace) love her to death. She was very, very strict Chinese ma--grandma. And where she tried to marry
me off so (laughs), I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. (laughs). I mean, I was too young to understand
what was going on, but at least my mom was like, “We are not doing that!”
Meyer: Oh my God.
Saldivar: Yeah (laughs).
Meyer: How, how old were you?
Saldivar: I was probably about seven or eight when my grandma was grooming-Meyer: Oh-Saldivar: Me to, you know, prepare for like, have you met this child? Or, you know, I have a friend's son
who's on my oh. What the heck? (Meyer laughs) No!
Meyer: Your mom is like, “We're not, (both talking) we’re not doing this—"
Saldivar: Yeah, exactly. We're not exactly (laughs).
Meyer: Oh my gosh.
Saldivar: Yeah. It was kind of neat because my, my--the thing is because my dad is a firstborn male of the
family. So he's spoiled and everything and oh, since I'm the first daughter, you know, we have to make
sure she's married off well. And then my, my brother who's actually considered the first-born male of
the firstborn son gets so much better benefits and perks than I do. So even though I'm the first born
(unintelligible) oh no, you're a female. But my son--my brother still gets like, everything.
Meyer: And he's the baby. So it's, yeah. (Saldivar laughs). Oh man.
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Saldivar: Yeah. So that's kind of just a little bit about me. I know that was, a real deep dive into a lot of
stuff.
Meyer: No, that's great. That's great. Um, yeah, I, well that answers my question about your educational
journey too. Which is perfect.
Saldivar: There you go.
Meyer: Um, and then I was just going to ask, how did you first become aware of the Cross-Cultural
Center when you came onto Cal State San Marcos’ campus?
Saldivar: That’s a, (laughs) that's actually a really good question. Um—
Meyer: How did you wander in? Yeah.
Saldivar: Yeah. And I think that's always the funny thing is people don't know about it. I think what was
hard was when I was here on campus and versus like how it is now, it wasn't visible.
Meyer: Oh OK.
Saldivar: You--it was not even like an indicator. There was no signage, there was not like, how the
Veterans Center is literally right there in the middle of campus or, you know, the Student Center is right
there. The, the Cross-Cultural Center, or what it was called formerly is the Multicultural Center was in a
back office kind of like this. It was hidden in Craven Hall (now Administrative Building), fourth floor way
in. So when you walk in, it's not right there. It's like you have to go halfway through, then down this tiny
corridor and then it's a door.
Meyer: Um-Hm.
Saldivar: And it's, you think, okay, either it's a janitor’s closet or it's where they keep all the, um, what do
you call it, the computer stuff and everything—
Meyer: Yeah
Saldivar: Like a storage closet. You're just like, “Where is this place? Am I in the right place?” And
(they’re) like, “Keep going down. (laughs) You're following the right area”. Like we had signs and arrows
and everything. In different bright colors to make it feel like it's okay, (Meyer laughs) it's a safe space.
You're coming to, you're know, we're not going to kidnap you or anything. (both talking)
Meyer: This is not a meat locker.
Saldivar: Right, exactly. You're going to make it out alive.
Meyer: Yeah, yeah.
Saldivar: The way I ended up getting there, funny enough was I was just going through--when I returned
back to school, my focus was just get my degree and go, you know, I wasn't even thinking about being
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involved, you know, student life, things like that. That wasn't even on my radar, until I started taking
community, what do you call it? Sociology classes. So my major was Communications and I minored in
Sociology and Ethnics Studies and my Ethnic Studies teacher--I am terrible with names (laughs). I see her
face Dr. Elsie, (whispers: Elsie), no, Elsa, Elsie (Dr. Sharon Elise), something like that.
Meyer: Uh-Hm.
Salvidar: And she--was talking about, you know, race and, racial identity and things like that. And so she
was very involved in the school, and something came up in where there’s a position for ASI, our
Associated Student Inc. for a Director of Diversity and Cultural Events or, something like that. I'm terrible
remember(ing), those kind of details years back. But yeah, it was with ASI and I, so it was a Cultural and
and Diversity Coordinator. So it'd be in charge of all the events regarding, you know, student orgs ,and
things like that. So she know would talk about in this class and she was like, you know, this is available if
you guys are interested and stuff. And then she personally took me aside and she's like, “I think you
should go for this Dee.” I was like, “really?” She was like, “I think you might be good for it. You should try
it out.” I was like, “Okay, cool.” That was my thing. (laughs) I was just like, okay, people see something in
me, I guess I'll try it. It wasn't anything like, oh, I have so wanted this job, or I should be interested. It's
like, okay, let me just fill it out and stuff and you know, and ask questions, you know, your personal
identity. What do you think you would bring on campus? Why is cultural diversity important to you and,
and to the students? Those are kind of some of the things I remember. And, and you know, I was filling it
out, just kind of taking a lot of the experience. I grew up, you know, being a military child and being in
San Francisco and other places and having to adjust to those. It's just, you know, feeling--just more of
creating a belonging on campus.
Meyer: Um-Hm.
Salvidar: Because especially during that time, there was not a lot of students of color on, on campus. It
was very predom-, we called it the pre-primarily, PWI. Primarily a White Institution (Predominately
White Institution). That was, what do you call it? Oh geez, I forgot what you call it. Commuter (student
body). Yeah. So it was very big commuter student, there was no student life on campus.
Meyer: Right.
Saldivar: It wasn't as lively as it was, is now or a couple years before. So I applied for it. I think I was the
only one (laughs) that applied for it because I don't think, because ASI wasn't even really built up either.
We were such a young campus. And so I interview it. I ended up being on the board and so that was kind
of my shoe into student activities and student involvement. And that's where I got to meet other
people, meet other campus organizations, realized, oh my gosh, there's much more to on-campus than
going to class.
Meyer: Right.
Saldivar So from there I ended up, you know, having to--part of that position allowed me to network and
coordinate with a lot of different folks on campus, which was great. And that's when I caught the
attention of Alexis (Montevirgen, second Associate Director of Multicultural Programs). Who was a part
of the Multicultural Center at a student affair, student activities department. And he would be attending
some of the stuff that ASI would be putting on. And he's like, “So have you thought of, you know, maybe
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wanting to move into student, you know, affairs and activities? You know, I have a position that'd be
coming up,” you know, but because with ASI it was only a one-year thing. So it wasn't like you could
continue. I mean, I could continue on if I wanted to, but, you know it was just my foot on the door just
trying to see what, it was about. And he's like, “Yeah, you know, we actually have a center that you
could be a peer educator and all this stuff come by. Let's talk. You know, I'd love to see what you'd be
interested in doing for us.” And, and, it was kind of amazing to see a male Filipino-Meyer: Um-Hm
Saldivar: Faculty, staff member on campus. Because it was like, wait, there's somebody that looks like
me and he's interested in what I have to do and talk about. So it was kind of really neat to kind of see
him as a mentor and a friend and somebody that looks like me, but could understand also culturally, you
know, where we come from. What was interesting was I hadn't really explored my Filipino identity as
much, because I wasn't really exposed to it other than my family. And so I felt more closely to my
Chinese American identity. So him being Filipino and being like, hey, you know, I see you, let’s work
together. Let's figure out what we could do. I felt like it was an opportunity for me not just to, you know,
be a part of that center, but also to help kind of selfishly myself, kind of, I learned who I am.
Meyer: Yeah.
Saldivar: You know, in this role. So after I did ASI for the one year, they're like, “So you want to
continue?” I'm like, “Actually I want to move over there (points, laughs).” So they, they always laugh
because Sarah Gallegos was my supervisor for ASI. So her and Alexis, you know, would work together
and stuff and she's like, “You stole my person (laughs).” So they would always joke about that and
everything. “Stop stealing my people!”
Meyer: They're poaching.
Saldivar: Right. Exactly. He literally just straight up poached me. He's like, so you interested. So that's
how I ended up being a part of the Multicultural Center as, it was, it was a different title at that time. It
was, I, I don't know if it was ambassador or, because it wasn't even called peer educator at that time. It
was just kind of like, I was his assistant because the peer educator program hadn't, hadn't even started
yet. We were in, he was in the— the works of actually building it. So I kind of came on more as a, as like
an executive assistant to him helping him organize what is the peer education supposed to look like?
What are some programs we could start doing? Things like that. So looking at more of the administrative
logistic planning of it before even, just even being a student. So it was kind of nice because, I was able to
do some of my work experience to like, hey, you know, let's get my type A personality going here. Yeah.
So (laughs). Yeah. So that's how I fell into it. And I was there for almost two and a half, three years.
Meyer: Wow.
Saldivar: Yeah. I continued on with it. He was just like, yeah, you're staying on. I'm like, okay. (laughs).
Meyer: Aw.
Saldivar: Yeah.
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Meyer: Well, it sounds like you were really essential to the early space.
Saldivar: I want to say I am, I guess. I mean, I was just in it because I felt like it was such a great
opportunity to create a space for students who, didn't feel like they belonged on campus. And just to be
with great minds who want to think big and create a culture and a system of, what do you call it? Just,
you know, integrate a lot of things on campus that wasn't there. And it was, I felt like it was one of, what
do you call it? Now, I'm looking back like I'm, when I was young I was like, “I’m in it. This is fun. Yay!” Just
go ahead and do this because, you know, I just want to be part of it and I'm now looking back like, I was
in an incubator.
Meyer: Yeah.
Saldivar: I literally was in a startup not realizing it was a startup. So yeah. I was kind of looking back like,
oh dang, (laughs). I did all that. Oh—
Meyer: You were at the beginning of something really big. Yeah.
Saldivar: Yeah.
Meyer: So it sounds like the Cross-Cultural Center, or the Multi-Cultural Center as it was called, was a lot
smaller when you started.
Saldivar: Oh my gosh, yes (both laugh).
Meyer : How would you say it was different when you started and when you left?
Saldivar: Oh my gosh. We had people (laughs), the campus community actually knew what the CrossCultural Center was. So that was really, it was so interesting to see within the two-and-a-half, three
years how much it had grown. When I started it was just me and Alexis in this small little room, red
couches, you know, we had some posters up. We had a bookcase full of just some, you know, books that
we called “our library” (laughs). Now that, I think have a huge like, depository of information that people
can have resources to. But at that time we didn't even have this library, so it was-Meyer: Wow.
Saldivar: I know it's hard to imagine (laughs). So there wasn't like a lot of resources focused on DEI
(Diversity and Equity) work, you know, even it was even called DEI work at that time. It was just called,
you know, you know, diversity and multiculturalism. So a lot of the lingo has even changed from the
time I was there to now. I think what, I mean, just breaking it down to even certain years, the first year
was just building, just building a foundation, getting down what is the Multi-Cultural Center about
what’s its place on campus and how can we be in collaboration and community with all the other
centers that were even being established.
Meyer: Right.
Saldivar: So it was nice that it was a really good time for the Cross-Cultural Center, Women's Center, um,
the LGBT (Lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, and transgender) Center, the Pride Center, all those centers kind of
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working together to build each other up. You know, we knew that it was important to have these
centers, but we didn't wanna have just one centralized one that filled everything. Its like, no, we need to
really, I don't wanna say--segment them. But we, they did needed to be segmented because there's all
different sorts of needs for each one. But we also wanted to work together as, you know, we are here
together as a whole but specifically they could help you with these certain things. You know. So we
were, that was such a great time in where we didn't, we weren't fighting for resources and I think still
they're not fighting for resources, so, which is good. So we started in Craven Hall, the small little area,
and I think what really helped was just having students come and just hang out and know there's a space
for them. Yeah. It ended up being a lot of API (Asian Pacific Islander) students of course. So, you know, it
kind of, it was hard to get that stigma off for a while that's like, “Oh, that's the Asian Center.” It's like,
no, we're actually open to a lot more people. But it just happened to be a lot of Asians in here.
Meyer: You're not the first person who said that.
Saldivar: Yeah.
Meyer: I’ve heard that a few times.
Saldivar: Yeah. I know Floyd is still dealing with that. (both talking)
Meyer: Yeah, Floyd mentioned that.
Saldivar: I’m sorry, I'm so sorry (laughs).
Myere: No—
Saldivar: Because what, what was nice about the, the, the Multicultural Center or when it changed to
the Cross-Cultural Center was that it was a nice incubator for student organizations to start too. There
was, since there's no space for folks, there's no space to grow.
Meyer: Right.
Saldivar: And no space to, to create communities. And so that's kind of what happened with the CrossCulture Center--well, I like Cross-Cultural Center, but it's Multicultural Center--back then Multicultural
Center (laughs) was, it was an incubator for, for student orgs (organizations). So Kamalayan Alliance
actually started from there. The Filipino organization that me, and actually my husband was a part of
the, the found founding group. Yeah. So we founded that and it's crazy to see how far they are. And I
was, oh god, 20 something years later. Oh, that makes me feel old. And they're like, “Oh yeah, 26th
anniversary.” I'm like, “has it been 26 years?”
Meyer: You're like, can we say 15 maybe?
Saldivar: Can we just say anniversary? Just, just leave the number out.
Meyer: Yeah (both laugh).
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Saldivar: It's crazy to see how many generations have gone through that. I know--what do you call,
APSA? The Asian Pacific Student Society? The Vietnamese group. I know we also helped, and this was
later on also, you know, the Black Student Union, things like that. And kind of just developing and
growing and finding spaces to find each other. And then being able to create that community. And then
if they needed to go off and do their own thing, that was fine too. But we just were happy that, hey,
people found each other through here and they were able to do something and create action. So that
was kind of a really, something that I hold dear to my heart is that there was a space for students to do
that and to find friendships and god, I don't know how many of them got married to each other.
Meyer: Aw.
Saldivar: (laughs) There’s a lot of people that are like, oh, you're still together. We're still best friends
and now y'all have kids. And it's crazy how much the, the, that space had, impacted so many people so
many years later.
Meyer: Wow. Yeah.
Saldivar: So I guess, so what else happened there? I mean, there's just so much (laughs). We did move
three times, the time I was there, so it was nice that they realized this space is too small for us. They
ended up, the main office ended up taking note of how many students were coming in a day. So then
they could show to, I don't know, the chancellor, the provost, I still don't understand the hierarchy. And
I'm a student and I'm in higher ed(ucation). And I was like, what (laughs) You know, they're like, there's a
need here.
Meyer: Right.
Saldivar: You see what's happening is that these students are coming in, they're using the space, they're
doing this, this, this, and this. So they were provide--so us, us students just hanging out and chilling and
doing whatever we're doing there. They were using us, as I won’t saying using us. But, you know, they
were using us as a case study saying, “Hey, this is something important to us. Look what's happening.
We need a bigger space.” And so what was nice is that through, I think between 2005, five and six or six
or six or seven, we ended up moving us to the bottom floor of the Craven Hall. Or was it the first floor?
It's one of the, the lower ends. Which was nice because not only was it semi-visible to, the students
now, because people would have to walk by the center to get to the one stop. And we were in front of
that really nice, painted mural. But they also, it was a bigger space. It was an awkward space, but it was
bigger. It was this weird triangle and were like, how are we gonna fit anything? So it was really weird,
like sectioned off stuff. It was weird. But what was nice is that because of being more visible people
were able to see, “Hey, wait, what's going on in there? Oh, that looks cool.” Then we were able to even
promote more of our programs and be like, hey, have you guys heard of this? Or, you know, here's a
flyer, here's A-frames. Things like that. The red couches still, still came with us because the red couches
came (both laugh) wherever we went. Everybody knew us by the red couches. I think, that was really
one of the key things that brought a lot of students in, because you know, I mean, before we just had-Meyer: Benches
Saldivar: Benches. And basic chairs. And it was not comfortable. It didn't feel welcoming. People like,
“Hey, you wanna take a nap? We got some red couches.” People just pass out there next thing (Meyer
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laughs) you know, they made it a home. You know. Other things that happened in there was when a lot
of programming was starting to be developed. So I was there as the assistant for about six months until
the new semester kicked in. And me and Alexis had come up, helped develop the peer educator
program. So the peer educator program consisted of four peer educators. I was kind of the main lead
one. Jay (Franklin) was hired on as, the LGBTQ peer educator. And then there was Brittany, which I
forgot her, what her specific one was. And then there was Stephanie who was like spiritual and religious.
So we were kind of sectioned off into certain areas of our expertise to kind of help reach out to those
groups. At that time it kind of worked because it was such a small population of the students, we could
do that. As time has gone on, they just made 'em all peer educators and they were just kind of more
cross trained in everything and anything. And whoever had those expertise would be kind of referred to.
So it became more of a referral system than it was like, “Oh, you go to Jay because he's specifically this
identity.” But it was great because we were able to all really learn from each other. Oh yeah. And then
there was Cher, how can I forget, I forgot Cher. Cher is fun. Cher just, her (laughs) demeanor was so
different, she was, very introverted, but once you got to know her, oh, she had the most sassiest mouth
ever. And I'm just like, “Cher! We can't say that!” (Both laugh) But she was great. She, we, we came
really close. And I think that's what I love about being in that peer educator program that we became
really close. You know, we were all in it brand new. First of all, we were all students of color, so we're
like, oh my god, there's more you know (laughs). And it was a great learning opportunity for all of us. So
the things that we didn't know or understand, it was a safe space for us to explore that. So as peer
educators, you know, we came up with some programming for the students. So we did things, and it
kind of kind of all organically came together. You know, one, one of the things that we all worked on was
called Multicultural Mondays. So on Mondays, once or every twice a month, I forgot what days.(laughs).
There was a, you know, a certain schedule to it. We would, look at certain identities or things that would
be meaningful for the students to wanna explore. So just kind of added programming to it. One of the
things that I love that I hold dear to my heart was one of the programs we did called “Dinner Dialogues.”
That was a very pricey program, but it worked (laughs). I'm like, “Do we have a budget?” (Both laugh) I
didn't know what that was. I'm just like, “Can I have money for this?”
Meyer: Well, Jay was saying, getting people in with food always worked.
Saldivar: Oh gosh. Yeah. We ended up having a fridge and a microwave, but until we moved down to
the, to the second floor. So yeah. That's one of things. Like we got food, we got pizza because, the
campus was a food desert.
Meyer: Right.
Saldivar: We had nothing other than the Dome (food services originally operated by San Diego State
University’s Aztec Shops). And the Dome was one of, first of all kind of expensive, and two, it was gross
(both laugh). It was, oh. Oh no. So one of the things that we came up with called Dinner Dialogues, and
it was a really great, I wanna say experience of how that organically happened as a program. It was just
a bunch of students, hanging out in the Cross-Cultural Center past four o'clock, which was very rare
because nobody wanted to be on campus past two. Usually the classes ended at two, you were gone.
But these students felt safe. They felt home. They felt like, this is where I want to be. So we all ended up
just getting food. I think this was when Chick-fil-A opened and we all got free, what do you call it?
Chicken sandwich passes.
Meyer: Right.
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Saldivar: So we all went got like (laughs), thirty-five sandwiches. Oh, it was crazy. And yeah, we all sat
there, we're just all eating. And we started talking about-- it was my, my good friend Jacob Dansler, he
was, Black male and it was some of us and we were all, you know, all from different backgrounds and
stuff. And we were talking about some of the challenges that we've had as a person of color or what it
mean to be a man of color, or a woman of color or, you know, LGBQ person of color. And it was really
cool to kind of just sit there and have that kind of dialogue with each other and learn and be able to ask
questions that were, I wouldn't say in, in a way that we didn't feel like we were being judged for asking
these questions. It was a very safe space and a space for learning and, and feeling, you know, we
actually have a lot more in common than we realized. And people were like, you know, we need to make
this a program. This is cool. I would love to have these kind of spaces where we could talk about these
things like this. And so that's where Dinner Dialogues ended up coming out and we're like, yeah, free
meal, but at the same time, let me talk with you about things that maybe we don't have these
opportunities to talk about all the time. So it was really great. That program kicked off really well and we
had ended up having, I think it was for two years until I actually ended up leaving. And then I don't know
what happened if it continued or if it morphed and changed ‘cause it always changes with people who
come in. But yeah, I think that was one of really one of the main things that kicked off there. And then
Jay, because he was the LGBTQ peer educator, he also was able to bridge a lot of the communities
together and start, start planning out the Pride Center. And so that was kind of really nice in where the,
the Multicultural Center was the hub of creating more and building more and growing out. So while he
was there, we worked together in supporting not only the, oh gosh, LGBT group, but then also, okay,
how are we gonna get a space for these students as well? So that was a really big achievement for Jay
and for the Cross-Cultural Center in that sense. And it was nice that we were able to support each other
in building those communities. You know, mine was Kamalayan, his was-Meyer: Yeah.
Saldivar: You know, the pride, oh, we call it, I think Britney was helping with the BSU (Black Student
Union) part, things like that. So we were all there to support each other, support the students and just, I
don't know, we were just doing it because we wanted to. It's just ‘cause we had the passion for it and
we loved it. I don't think we—it was like fully intentional what we were doing. And until we're like, oh
crap, look what we did (laughs).
Meyer: Yeah. You wanted to create a space for you and the people on campus and it just kept being a
space.
Saldivar: Yeah.
Meyer: That's great.
Saldivar: Yeah.
Meyer: All right.
Saldivar: I know, I think I've-- there's so much. I hope I'm catching everything (laughs).
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Meyer: No, you're, you're actually answering some of the questions before I even ask 'em, which is
great-- (both talking)
Saldivar: Oh, perfect. Okay good.
Meyer: Yeah. How did it, how did the Cross-Cultural Center help you develop and express your cultural
identity?
Saldivar: Oh gosh. I think it made me, I think it was, it was, that was just one of the many layers upon my
education studies here. Because in my communications major, and because minoring in sociology and
ethnic studies, those classes helped me really look internally of who I was, what my identities meant,
how they came across to, to the students, to the people that I work with. You know, really being able to
put all that theory and then the Cross-Cultural Center allowed me to put it into practice. Oh god, I sound
old (laughs).
Meyer: No.
Saldivar: Being able to put those together. I'm like, ah, makes me (unintelligible).
Meyer: No that's, that's a great way to put it. Yeah.
Saldivar: Yeah. And I think that helped me a lot in regards to the development of who I was becoming
and who I am now. You know, coming into a college, like I said, you know, first gen(eration) Chinese,
Filipino-American, I'd like, what does that, what did that mean to me?
You know, even when I, I went into college, I didn't even know, I didn't even know that I was considered
first gen. I was just like, yeah, I'm going to college because everybody says I should, or, you know, my
parents weren't able to go and they said I should go, so I'm gonna go, you know, you just don't have that
frame of reference until you get into a space. They're like, “Oh, are you the first one to go in your
family? Oh, so you’re the first gen.” Wait, what, what does that mean? So, and so, you know, not
realizing there's the support systems and things like that to help you and understand and develop that.
And I think that's what really helped me was with that Cross-Cultural Center is to be--is to meet not only
my community and people and friends, lifelong friends, who’re gonna help me, you know, be where I
am today. But also meeting the mentors and the folks who do the work and how they've helped me
understand more of, I guess the practice and, and the acknowledgement of like, it's okay to be
uncomfortable. You know, it's, it, it's it, you have to be uncomfortable with the un-- you have to be
comfortable with the uncomfortable, you know, these are things that I don't know, and it's okay not to
know. You know, you're gonna move into certain spaces where you're gonna feel uncomfortable and
how do you unpackage that? How do you take that and make it into a learning opportunity? And that's
one thing that Dilcie Perez has-- she taught me throughout my time being there. She was such a great
guidance and mentor for me that I give her kudos to everything about what I do with the work that I do.
I remember when I was asked to return back for the, 15th-year anniversary of the Cross-Cultural Center,
and they asked me and Jay to be speakers, I was like, “Oh, good lord, what am I supposed to talk
about?” (both laugh) There's so much to talk about! And it took me a while to realize what I wanted to
say. And it came back in, to the fact of being intentional. And that always stuck with me. The one thing
that Dilcie always said to me, she was like, what's your intentions on what you know, of what you're
doing? Why are you doing this?
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Meyers: Um-Hm.
Salvidar: So I wasn't just doing something for the sake of doing it, but just to understand, you know, is
there an impact? What are the consequences? What is the bigger picture that you're trying to achieve?
Even (Former Dean of Students, Gregory) Toya was a really great, mentor and where he asked, “What
are the students learning outcomes?” I was like, students what (laughs)? What, what? He's like, yeah.
Why are we putting on this? Why are you putting on this project? Or why are you putting on this
program? What do you want the students to learn? So that really gave me a great foundation and
understanding of, why am I doing this? Just, am I doing it for the sake of doing it? Is it self-serving, or is it
really here for the students? And being kind of in a, in a selfish (selfless?) teaching moment.
Meyer: Right.
Saldivar: So I, I wanna say that the Cross-Cultural center really helped me build, you know, a framework
or a lens of how I move forward in doing whatever I do or move, as I grow up, you know, it's like, oh my
gosh, it made me mature (laughs)!
Meyer: They gave you a little toolkit with all the stuff you-Salvidar: Right.
Meyer: You needed for adult life.
Saldivar: Exactly. And I, and I thank them for that. ‘Cause now that I'm, you know, now in kind of their
space. In their spot. It's so weird to have that flip in where I was looking for mentors who look like me or
who I could connect to. But now I'm in that space and where I'm the mentor and where I'm reaching out
to students say, “Hey, I see you. Let me, you know, I'm here for you. If you need a space or someone to
talk to, I'm here.” You know, and it's so weird to be in that odd spot (laughs) right now, but it's because
of them that they were such great models by example that I now have those skills and that toolkit to be
like, okay, you know what? I know what it feels like to be in that spot. Let me help you get to where you
wanna be. Let me help you unpackage what's going on with your lives and things like that. You know,
just an example was a couple weeks ago I had a grad student, who identifies as Chinese American reach
out to me. And she's like, I wanna be in where you are at in doing marketing and communication. But
how do I, you know, deal with the cultural, challenges with my parents who want me to be in the
medical field.
Meyer: Um-Hm.
Salvidar: And I was like, oh girl, let's talk (both laugh)! You know? And so it was really nice and, and I
would say the experience of being, being able to talk to her and her just at the end feeling so relieved
and feeling like she could find someone that she could connect to. Someone that she was able to be like,
oh my god, I'm not alone in this feeling and this experience and it's okay to feel what I'm feeling. Was
such an elated moment for me to be like, oh my gosh, I can still help students (laughs). You know-Meyer: You took that weight off her shoulders.
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Saldivar: Yeah. And it felt good to be, you know, I was there and I didn't have anyone to help me with
navigating that. And I'm glad that I was able to be there for her to have those experiences that I could be
able to connect with someone else who's going through the same thing. So yeah, the Cross-Cultural
Center helped me grow a lot, Personally a lot. In understanding who I am, what space I take, what space
I should take, you know, what being present means. In spaces that don't have many people of color or
female people of color. Yeah. I mean it's (laughs). It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah.
Meyer: And I understand that you made a lot of friends there and met your husband at the CrossCultural Center.
Saldivar: (laughs) Yes.
Meyer: Tell us a little bit about how you guys met.
Saldivar: Oh my gosh. (laughs).
Meyer: Well, it's relevant to the Cross-Cultural Center, so.
Saldivar: Right. Yeah. I mean, that's the funny thing. It's just, wow, y'all (both laugh) we're, we're like,
y'all met and y'all married, now you have a kid. Okay!
Meyer: So you're not the only ones. There's multiple.
Saldivar: There were several people who, I would say yeah, got married some of our best friends and
stuff. So me and Randy (Saldivar), met through a friend. It was not intentional when we first met. I was
actually working with ASI at the time. So we were, I was at the cancer, one of the cancer walks, the
Susan G. Koman cancer walks that we had on here at the field. I was a part of, you know, the walking
team and my good friend Trish at the time, she was another Filipina-American and who were able to
connect, was there with me to help support. And we were both at the check-in, check-in table at that
time. And this is when we had the Nokia phones. Okay.
Meyer: Yeah.
Saldivar: This is how old it was. So she (laughs)--her. Randy had called her ‘cause I guess he was studying
at the library. He was like, “Hey, what's up? What are you doing?” She's like, “Hey, come down.” You
know, “I'm with my friend Dee, and we're at this thing, you know, just come and hang out.” He's like,
okay. I didn't even know who he was. I didn't know who this guy was. She's like, oh, my friend's coming
over. I'm like, okay, cool. I'm sitting there with my--I was in a Japanese 101 at this time, so I have my
Japanese book out. I'm reading it, you know, he comes down with his boom box and (Meyers laughs)
and I’m, I was like, what are you doing? He's like, oh yeah, you know, just B-boying. And I'm like, okay,
cool. Whatever. You know, I didn't know anything about the hip-hop culture and stuff. And she's like,
“Oh, this is my friend Randy, Randy this Dee,” I'm like, “Cool. Okay.” And he looks down and he is like,
“Oh, you're studying Japanese?” I'm like, “Yeah, I'm in 101.” He's like, “Oh, I took it.” I was like, “Oh cool.
How was it?” He's like, “Oh, it's really fun. He's like, do you need help with it?” I'm like, “No, I'm cool,
thanks.” So (both laugh). So that's was my first initial meeting with him. Not even a thought. He was just
a passing thought. And there was another time where they had the International Festival here on
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campus, and it was me and Trish again. And we're eating Ramen sitting on the floor. Randy comes by,
says hi again. And this is a time where we had the old school, film.
Meyer: Yeah.
Saldivar: So we didn't have phones or anything. It was just, yeah, he was going around taking pictures,
right, and--but this is where you could actually get it digitally downloaded, which was weird.
On a CD, and he had taken a picture of me and Trish and it wasn't until years later when we started
dating where we're going through photos. And it was labeled “Trish and Friend.”
Meyer: Oh my God. (laughs)
Saldivar: I was like-Meyer: That's your wife.
Saldivar: I was like, Randy, that's, that's me (both laugh). He was like, wait, what? He looks back, oh my
god, I took a picture of you two (laughs). And we couldn’t stop dying. Just, we had all of these
opportunities that we had met. And nothing. He wasn't attracted to me. I wasn't attracted to him. We
had no clue. We even met each other. We're like, ah-ha. Cool. Okay. Bye. It wasn't until our friend Trish
had decided when, you know after we were kind of starting the Cross-Cultural Center and stuff. It's, you
know, let's create a, a student organization for Filipino-Americans or folks who were interested in the
Filipino-American culture.
Great. So she asked me to be on board. My friend Marvin, asked Randy to be on it, and her friend Katie.
So it was the five of us. And we, we, that's when we literally first intentionally met each other. Like, oh,
hey, okay. I thought of him as a little brother. I was like, cool (laughs), you know, whatever. And so then
we would go to the Cross-Cultural Center, or the Multicultural Center to hold meetings just to hang out,
you know? ‘Cause Alexis ended up being our advisor as well. So then we would ask him, okay, how do
we, you know, how do we start this (student organization)? Or what are things that we need to do? You
know, we ended up having our first GBM, you know, and, and saying, okay. So we started kind of
building out the, the, the student org here and there. During that time there was probably about--we
knew each other for about a good eight months by now. We just still friends. We just kil-, I don't even
pay attention to him. He don't pay attention to me. We're just like, yeah, cool. Have you seen this
movie? Cool. Have you seen this? Okay. Yeah. We're just hanging out. And then, masquerade ball was
around the corner. And all of us were like, yeah, let's go. Let's go to masquerade ball. Woo! You know,
let's just dress up and dance. And it was my friend Trish who was like, “So have you thought of, what do
you think of Randy?” And I was like, what do you mean what do I think of Randy? “Like, you know, what
do you think of him? Like, you think he's cute or something?” And I was like, “Uh, he's okay. I mean, he's
nice.” Like she, I, you know, she's trying to plant seeds in my head. On the flip end, she's planting seeds
on his end.
Meyer: Oh.
Saldivar: “So what do you think about Dee?” I was like, what!
Meyer: One of those friends--
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Saldivar: Yeah. Yeah. She's like, I see something, but you both don't see it. So she was playing
matchmaker. And so one time, we were supposed to all meet and go to, a GBM meeting, or we call FCC,
Filipino Collegiate Collaborative. So this is where, all the schools across San Diego, USC (University of
Southern California), UCSD (University of San Diego), San Diego State and us (CSUSM) were supposed to
meet all the Filipino American organizations. So we worked together outside of the school to work with
other student orgs, which was really cool. So we were supposed to have our meeting, and it was
supposed to be me, Trish, and Randy. And Trish was like, “Oh no, I'm sick. I can't go, but if you two
wanna go.” I'm like, okay (laughs). Literally, that's kind of how it ended up going. “Okay. So, you wanna
go to like, masquerade ball together?” “Sure. Okay.” So it ended up kind of being our first date in a
sense. And then from there, you know, we were kind of dating and-Meyer: Yeah.
Saldivar: Because we were still involved in, you know, Kamalayan Alliance. We were coming, as you
could tell to the center, he would help out and volunteer a lot, you know, and he saw, you know, Alexis,
he's like, “Hey, another Filipino. Yay!” So, you know, we all started kind of building the community and
you know, we're spending more time together. He's helping out a lot. And then next thing you know,
it's, I'm the one who asked him out (laughs). I was like, so, you know what's going on? (Meyer laughs)
And he is like, hey, yeah. I was like, “So do you wanna go out or something?” And he looks at me and
he's like, “Yeah, sure. Where do you want to eat?” (Meyer laughs) I was like, “What?” “Yeah. You said
you wanna go out, so where do you want to eat?” I'm like, oh my god, you’re so dense. (laughs). I was
like, no, do you, wanna be, you know, exclusive? He was like, “Oh yeah. Okay, cool.“
Meyer: Where do you want to eat? Right?
Saldivar: He's like, uh, so this-- it tells you so much about his personality. We are so different from each
other (laughs), you know, and, he's such a great support. He, when we talk about it, we laugh about it.
I'm always the very type A business type of person behind the scenes. Let's get the logistics and stuff
going. He's the PR (public relations) of it all. He can talk people's ear off, he can find people's stories, he
can connect with them. And then once he does a connection here, here's Dee. And then, you know, I get
all this stuff taken care of (laughs). So it was really cool. We've, we worked really well in tandem. And I,
I'm surprised at the age that we were at, we were early twenties nobody knew we were dating.
Meyer: Oh wow.
Saldivar: We were very professional in a sense of where nobody knew in the student org or even
sometimes in the Cross-Cultural Center that we were even together, we kept it very, professional. Didn't
do the whole PDA (Public Display of Affection) thing.
Meyer: Right.
Saldivar: No. You know, we're not here to do that. We're here to serve our community. And I think at
such a young age and stage of our relationship of being able to do that, helped us really kind of be able
to be really good partners. In the sense where what we do here is for, you know, a different purpose
versus what we do here.
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Meyer: Right
Saldivar: I think it was the one time (laughs) at a GBM, this is where the students really started growing.
You know, we had almost forty to fifty members by the second, third year, and we had people come
through the center and stuff. (laughs) When GBM, he went to go off to go get lunch and he is like, let me
go grab something before the, the, the meeting and I'll see you. I'll be right back. And then he gave me a
kiss. Everyone freaked out. They're like, oh, what?
Meyer: Oh.
Saldivar: They're like, what? (laughs) We’re like, what? They’re like what was that? (points, laughs), and
we’re like, oh, y'all don't know yet? Like really a core small group of us. The ones right here knew, you
know.
Meyer: But everyone else.
Saldivar: Everyone else, because I guess because they didn't hang out with us outside of the CrossCultural Center or at our house or when we went to the dinner and things like that. We really kept it.
We, we didn't know we were that good at keeping it very separate. You know, when we go out to sushi
or dinner, hang out at people's houses and we were, you know, completely different people. But we
were in a school setting or the Kamalayan setting, we were very--we are officers, we are representatives
of this, you know, this space. We need to be kind of, you know, professional.
Meyer: Right.
Saldivar: So yeah. That moment that kiss happened, people were like, (gasps)? And we had people, no,
you're lying. You're all lying to us. You just, no, you're trying to prank, someone was so sure we were
probably, we were trying to just get a rise out of people. We're like, no, we've been together for like six
months now. They're like, (gasps) no! (laughs). So it was, it was crazy. It was, that's how we ended up
meeting, you know, he graduated in Kinesiology in 2009. Yeah. He--and what was nice is that in, he was
also the president of Kamalayan, probably within the first two or three years. And the Cross-Cultural
Center helped in creating a lot of the success of Kamalayan and where we had the first API (Asian Pacific
Islanders) graduate ceremony.
Meyer: Oh.
Saldivar: Now that has been going on. And we used the center, oh my gosh, that was so crazy. (laughs).
We had used the Cross-Cultural Center as a place to build the graduate, the, the planning of the
graduate. And we also made the stoles. This is how we had no budget. So we went to Michael's (craft
store) and bought the thickest red stole, I mean, red ribbon we could.
Meyer: Oh yeah.
Saldivar: And black puffy paint.
Meyer: Oh no.
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Saldivar: And we're sitting there, (painting) 2005.
Meyer: And that never looks even or clean.
Saldivar: Oh no. It was a hot, ugly mess. (Meyer laughs) And you know, we put API grad and there's, you
know we're trying to sit there and make it dry, so nothing's smearing. We had red ribbons everywhere
and Alexis was like, what the heck is going on? I'm like, “We're making stoles!” (Both laugh) And he's
like, oh boy. So I'm--yeah. A lot of the things that happened, like I said, the Cross-Cultural Center was an
incubator. A lot of things was DIY (Do It Yourself). It was handmade. You had no budget. So what were
we gonna do? You know, we had a lot of, thank goodness we had a lot of support from departments and
different, areas with, other API folks who were like, yeah, we got budgets that we could go ahead and
just hand over to you or, you know, we'll support you or sponsor you in this or sponsor you in that. So,
oh, thank goodness for this community because I don't know if we would’ve got where we are today
without really, the support of the school to see that there is a need and it wasn't coming up from the
president or things like that. It was coming from the ground up. So that was really cool.
Meyer: You were asking for what you needed, not having someone tell you. Yeah.
Saldivar: Exactly. And they're like, oh, we--that's what made a, I think Cal State San Marcos such a
unique school is that they listen to the people from the ground. It's not directives always coming from
the top saying, hey, we need this, or you need to do this, or you need to do this. It's like, no, the
students are saying something, how can we meet their needs? Type of thing.
Meyer: Right.
Saldivar: So it's been really cool in seeing that dynamic versus a lot of other institutions that believe or
think that, you know, this is what the students want, but not really listening to them.
Meyer: Yeah.
Saldivar: So yeah. So yeah, all in all, that's how me and Randy met. And we ended up getting married
after I finished my master's program. And then now we have a child. Two of our other friends, Mike and
Darlene met through, he was part of Kamalayan and she was a part of VSA, the Vietnamese Student
Association. And we worked really well together, or we worked closely together and we ended up being,
you know, in the Cross-Cultural Center as well. And so she ended up asking him out and he was like,
“Sure, okay. I didn't know you liked me.” (Both laugh). And now they're together, married. And then
other, there's another couple come Kamalayan Alliance that also was a part of the Cross-Cultural Center
and they ended up doing, PCN together, Filipino Culture Night. Which was another thing the CrossCultural Center helped create and establishing a lot of that stuff too. And now they're married (laughs).
So yeah, there's a lot of married couples coming out and just, you know, we're still really all in touch
with each other. People have ended up, generations after us, one of our good friends Jael he was part of
Kamalayan Alliance, I'm not sure if he was part of the board, but now he owns and runs his own
polvorón company, called Papa's Polvorón. And where he's now has his--it started out as like a at home
kitchen type of thing. And he was at the farmer's markets. Now he has his product in a lot of the Filipino
stores, across the nation. So it's like, geez, (laughs).
Meyer: Yeah.
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Saldivar: You know, it's really nice to see where all of the students and people who've been through the
Cross-Cultural Center and where they are now. You know, and I think that's just one of the biggest
rewards I see. Being a part of that community was like, wow, I was there to see y'all start like, “I don't
know what I wanna do. I just wanna go and, eat all you can eat sushi.” To, now they're having families
and having own businesses and doing great things and great work, you know? So Yeah. So yeah. That's
how I met my husband (laughs). Long story short.
Meyer: Well it's so intertwined with the story of the Center for you. So I think it's really cool the, you
know. Yeah.
Saldivar: When we, took our engagement photos we came back to the center, we came back to the
campus because this has so much meaning for us.
Meyer: Yeah.
Saldivar: You know-Meyer: I'll add the pictures, to the file later.
Saldivar: Yeah.
Meyer: But, just so people know what you're talking about, the picture of you when you thought it was,
like a conference and it was a surprise actually.
Saldivar: Yeah. (laughs)
Meyer: That’s that's really sweet. Yeah. What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing going
forward as it coexist with these other identity-specific spaces? You said it's kinda like a support, an
incubator, it helps kind of foster the activities of the other programs.
Saldivar: Yeah. I think when, when it was in, during my time generation, that's what it was. Now, I mean,
it's grown so much and where I, I want--in a sad way that I don't recognize it anymore, but that's a good
thing. Because that means there has been growth and development and changes. And I'd rather see that
than stay where it is stagnant-wise. What role it has now on the campus, I--I don't really know.
Meyer: You've been off campus for awhile (laughs).
Saldivar: I’ve been off campus for a while, so it's like, oh, I don’t know what it's gonna be. I mean, what
they're doing now, it, it--and I want them to continue what they're doing: is to just continue to, to grow
support, find changes. I mean, a lot of the things that I've seen is, you know, with their programming has
changed. Which I think it's great, it's changing with the times and that's how all centers should be is, you
know, they have to go with what's going on with the students. If they're not willing to change or, be
flexible, then what's kind of, what's the purpose of the center?
Meyer: Yeah.
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Saldivar: You know, that's kind of the (laughs) thing I could say because I mean, I've been so removed.
Meyer: Right.
Saldivar: I mean, other than coming back and, you know, being like, “Yay. Hi everybody.” I'm like-Meyer: You haven't been hands-on with the center for a while.
Saldivar: Yeah.
Meyer: Of course, of course.
Saldivar: Yeah. I'm, I'm the person that used to be here years ago (laughs). “No, don't call me Auntie,
please!” (Both laugh)
Meyer: And are there any other memories you wanna share that, um, like I know there were retreats
that you guys (video cuts out, battery ran down, audio recording)
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�
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Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
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Saldivar, Diana. Interview transcript April 14th 2023.
Description
An account of the resource
Diana Saldivar is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Communications, Sociology and Ethnic Studies. Saldivar worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2004-2007 and was also involved in the Asian Pacific Islander Student Society, Kamalayan Alliance, and with Associated Students Incorporated (student government). In her interview, Saldivar discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center provided her with a sense of belonging on campus and served as a second home. Saldivar explains how the center provided her with lifelong friendships, skills and connections that has helped her become the person she is today. Saldivar recounts how the CCC provided a safe space, allowing for conversations with others that are often deemed controversial, and how the center encouraged those to constantly seek knowledge.
This oral history was created in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos.
Creator
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Diana Saldivar
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Madeleine Meyer
Geneva Martinot
Date
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2023-04-14
Subject
The topic of the resource
California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated
California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance
California State University. Multicultural Programs
Filipino Americans
Human rights
San Diego State University
Student success
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
San Marcos (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights
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https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en
Rights Holder
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Diana Saldivar
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Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
Women's experience
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Madeleine Meyer
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Diana Saldivar
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5.4 Saldivar, Diana. Interview April 14th 2023. SC027-39 01:04:02 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance ; California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated ; San Diego State University ; California State University. Multicultural Programs ; Filipino Americans ; Student success ; Human rights Diana Saldivar Madeleine Meyer Video SaldivarDiana_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-14 1:|14(13)|32(10)|47(3)|59(10)|73(9)|92(14)|104(3)|133(8)|148(11)|164(15)|178(14)|202(11)|230(3)|259(11)|284(3)|297(6)|316(10)|334(4)|348(6)|363(4)|382(15)|404(11)|427(4)|443(13)|458(4)|481(6)|503(9)|523(11)|543(4)|554(3)|571(13)|584(12)|596(7)|615(16)|630(12)|644(6)|654(15)|682(5)|703(11)|717(13)|728(8)|744(4)|765(7)|776(17)|794(9)|812(9)|828(6)|848(11)|873(9)|888(8)|900(8)|919(13)|934(12)|949(15)|971(16)|990(13)|1009(8)|1031(9)|1046(18)|1065(6)|1080(6)|1103(11)|1121(9)|1148(6)|1152(15) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4ba35a3be1f188bd69a1d18341a5b736.mp4 Other video english 0 Childhood and Education Saldivar describes how she moved a lot and never had a solid group of friends due to her father's career in the military. She explains how she struggled navigating college as a first generation student. Saldivar started out at Palomar Community College, then California State University San Marcos and later moved onto San Diego State University for graduate school. Saldivar explains how she graduated during the recession and no one was hiring so she felt discouraged and had to take on volunteer work to maintain work experience. She also discusses what life was like growing up with parents who immigrated from the Philippines and China. Palomar Community College ; California State University San Marcos ; San Diego State University ; immigrant ; VA bill ; Military ; first generation ; childhood 0 780 Finding the Cross-Cultural Center and Getting Involved In Associated Students Incorporated Saldivar explains how the Cross-Cultural Center was very small and almost hidden amongst the campus. She explains how faculty encouraged her to apply for a position for Associated Students Incorporated (ASI, student governance). Saldivar explains how the Cross-Cultural Center exposed her to faculty that looked like her and represented her despite the campus being predominately white. Cross-Cultural Center ; Associated Students Incorporated ; representation ; identity 0 1205 Working and building up the CCC Saldivar explains how she started working at the Multicultural Center (now called Cross-Cultural Center) and helped to build the foundations of the center. She explains how in only three years the center was able to grow and become recognized on campus. The center was working with various other campus organizations to share resources and create appropriate spaces for students. Saldivar explains how the center impacted people within their identity. multi-cultural center ; start up ; building ; Pride Center ; LGBT ; Womens Center ; Asian Center ; Cross-Cultural Center 0 1690 CCC Began Growing Saldivar discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center began to expand and its new location allowed the center to become more visible to students. Programing for the center was created such as the Peer Educator Program, Multicultural Mondays and Dinner Dialogues. These programs provided a space and opportunity for students to explore, understand and discuss identities. Peer Educator Program ; Multicultural Mondays ; Dinner Dialogues ; identities ; representation ; LGBTQ ; Religion 0 2282 How the CCC Helped Saldivar Saldivar feels like her courses helped her identify who she was and understand how her background has shaped her as an individual, but the CCC is what allowed her to put those realizations into practice. The CCC allowed her to realize she must live intentionally and how to really make an impact in peoples lives. The CCC provided her with the skills she would use later on in her career. 0 2744 How Saldivar Met Her Husband Saldivar explains how she and Randy, her husband, met through the Cross-Cultural Center and ended up getting married. Saldivar reflects on the programs that she and Randy worked on for the CCC. Husband ; San Diego State ; University of San Diego ; University of Southern California ; Filipino American Organization 0 3191 Working Dynamics Between Saldivar and Her Husband Saldivar explains how she and Randy maintained a professional relationship while working at the center. She describes how they compliment one another and help one another become successful in their work. Kamalayan Alliance 0 3399 Asian Pacific Islander First Graduating Ceremony Saldivar discusses how the CCC helped the Asian Pacific Islander Club recognize their first graduating class. She explains how the lack of a budget forced the CCC and Asian Pacific Islander Club to get creative. Saldivar expresses her gratitude towards the university for always listening to the wants and needs of their students. Asian Pacific Islander Club ; Asian Pacific Islander graduation 0 3557 Impact of CCC on Others Saldivar discusses impact of the CCC on students and their academic success. She expresses the joy it brings to her when she sees how much her and her community has grown due to the center. Filipino ; student success 0 3723 Role of CCC Saldivar discusses how much the center has grown and how its programs are focused on the current needs of the students. 0 Video Diana Saldivar is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Communications, Sociology and Ethnic Studies. Saldivar worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2004-2007 and was also involved in the Asian Pacific Islander Student Society, Kamalayan Alliance, and with Associated Students Incorporated (student government). In her interview, Saldivar discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center provided her with a sense of belonging on campus and served as a second home. Saldivar explains how the center provided her with lifelong friendships, skills and connections that has helped her become the person she is today. Saldivar recounts how the CCC provided a safe space, allowing for conversations with others that are often deemed controversial, and how the center encouraged those to constantly seek knowledge. Madeleine Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Diana Saldivar at California State University San Marcos for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Friday, April 14th, 2023, and the time is eleven fifty-seven. I'd like to start with asking you a little bit about yourself. Where did you grow up and what was your early life like? Diana Saldivar: Ooh, that's a long question (both laugh). That's gonna be a long answer. How long do we have? Um, I actually was born here in San Diego, California on a military, one of the military bases. I don't know exactly which one. My mom forgot to give me those details, but all I know is that the hospital is now torn down. So I know it doesn't exist anymore, but I assume it was either 32nd or one of the Navy bases down south. Because I didn't know, we lived in North Park for a little bit, from there, because my dad's military career, we moved several places across, the West Coast. So I've been to Fallon, Nevada, San Francisco, Treasure Island, back to San Diego, Hawaii. And then once my dad retired, he retired at Camp Pendleton here in Oceanside. So I ended up being around probably fourteen, fifteen (years old). So right in the middle of my middle school, high school years is when I came to kind of be more of a, a transplant to San Diego. So--it was definitely still different from me, (laughs) for me from moving from San Francisco to a really big, you know, metropolitan city with a lot of diversity to Oceanside, which was very (laughs), in development still. Meyer: Um-Hm. Saldivar: So that was a big challenge. And then also because of me moving around to so many schools, I think I went to eight or nine schools by the time I was fifteen. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: So it wasn't like I grew up having solid friends, grew up with them during grade school and things like that. It was always a lot of transition. So me entering high school, middle school when everybody has friends since they were like second grade in kindergarten, that was very different for me. Fortunately, I was able to find my own community. I was able to find other, military transplants. So we just kind of found each other in a sense. So, I ended up graduating high school at Vista High, in 2000, oh (both laugh) that's so long ago. We just even had our 20th, annual, reunion. It was delayed because of the pandemic (COVID-19). Meyer: Right Saldivar: So it was 21(st annual reunion), which made it feel so much worse (laughs). So I graduated in Vista High and, I didn't really know what to do. I mean, I was kind of one of those, I was a first generation, what do you call it? Immigrant child who, my parents did some college, but it was more like vocational college. They didn't really understand the full traditional college career, how to get there. So I had a lot of high school counselors. They kind of helped with, you know, what are your thoughts about going into, you know, college, have you thought of, you know, applying and things like that. And it never really crossed my mind. I was just kind of going as it goes. But I ended up applying to San Diego State, Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos and one other college. Because of my dad's military career, he was able to get the GA or, the VA Bill (Veterans Affairs, often referred as GI Bill). So I was able to use it as his dependent, which was nice because affording college was just out of the question and having that nice little package was so good (laughs). So I had to stay in California, so I was very limited to where I could go. And I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I was like, you know, “Let's just go to Cal State San Marcos. It's close to home (laughs).” You know, I didn't really understand the whole, let's research and let's look at this and that and things. I'm just like, okay, I'll just go to college and put, I don't know, well non-major and stuff like that. And then, you know, I ended up being here, started 2000, dropped--got kicked out (both laugh) 2002 because I didn't meet the math requirement (laughs). I'm not sure if they still have that here, but as an undergrad you had to meet an English and math requirement. I definitely met the English because I did IB (International Baccalaureate) English, like honors English, but I was terrible at math, and I don't know why I was taking math classes at seven o'clock in the morning (Meyer laughs). So that was terrible setup for me. So then I ended up going to Palomar Community College for a couple years to get myself back on track, doing the, IGETC (Intersegmental General Education Transfer Curriculum) program. And probably by 2004 I found myself back here at Cal State San Marcos, you know, with a brand new focus, more (of an) understanding of what I wanted to do. Finally declared a major and two minors, like a crazy person. Like why would I wanna be the school more? I don't know. I ended up then graduating in the winter, or yet fall of 2007, but I walked, spring 2008, which was great because it felt really nice to kind of be able to represent my family, kind of being the first gen(eration) going across. And then it was like, what do I do now? And then I ended up going to San Diego State for my grad program, but that in itself wasn't even planned. Meyers: Um-Hm. Saldivar: This is kind of how my life has been. Meyers: Yeah. Saldivar: It just doesn't get planned. It just happens. Which is probably not a great (laughs) way to live life sometimes, unless you have a goal. It was my mentor, Dilcie Perez from the Cross-Cultural Center, or actually just kind of the student activities area and where she looked at me and she's like, “Did you ever think about making this a career?” And I was like, “What, I could get paid for this?” (both laugh). So that was kind of pretty much how it all happened in, the three months before I was graduating, I went to a info session about higher education programs and kind of figuring out that you could work with students, these are things that you could do to build your, your career in, in the collegiate setting. And I was like, oh, okay. I'll apply to of course, a California state school because that's how I can afford (laughs). And you know, still on my dad's, VA. Ended up getting in the San Diego State program. And so right after, the fall semester, I had a semester off because of the way that the, the, the calendar, schedule was laid out. So I had some work experience. So I ended up getting some work experience at the--oh my gosh. St. Paul? No, not St. Paul's. Oh my gosh. Father Joe's. Oh, my I’m like why I’m saying St. Paul's. Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. Saldivar: The Father Joe's Villages. I ended up, being a vocational counselor there for a couple months. And then I moved on to do my grad program at San Diego State. And then this was the longest title ever. Let me, let me see if I can get it right. Masters (laughs) of Arts in Higher Education with a Specialization in Student Affairs Administration. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: Yeah (both laugh). You should see what it looks like on the degree (Meyer laughs). It's like, my gosh, what did it say? I'm like, just higher ed. Just, just say higher ed. Meyer: Just put et cetera at the end. Saldivar: Right. And (both laugh) everything's an acronym. So yeah, I went to San Diego State, got do-- done, and then I graduated in 2010, when the economy was just (blows raspberry, gives thumbs down gesture). Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: So it was a terrible time-- Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: To graduate because education was literally redlined. Nobody was hiring. People were, either being laid off or decreased (furloughed) and things like that. So I, it was, it was a difficult time because, you know, I grew up with that mentality, especially that, first gen mentality that if you go to college and you get these degrees, you're going to get a good job at the end. You're gonna get paid well, you're gonna be able to buy a house and all these other things, which is a very, you know, generational (laughs), you understand. We're like, yeah, here, we're now still paying rent. Meyer: Yeah Saldivar: So it was, it was very, it was very humbling. At the same time it was, it was an eye-opener to the reality of like, this is not really the American dream that I was fed to believe in a sense. If that'll, you know, if you're educated, you'll be much more successful, whatever that looks like in that terminology. I would say at least, probably 80 to 85% of our class did not end up in higher ed. Meyer: Um-Hm. Saldivar: They only got in if they were already doing an internship and then was already kind of luckily able to find funding to continue that internship into a part-time or, uh, what do you call it? A contracted job? So it wasn't even like they were full on (jobs). It was, you know, you're, we could, we could help keep you on for another year. And it was like yearly basis until they finally, leveled out and then got the full-time benefit stuff. So that's what happened to a lot of my, cohort, either they all ended up going home to where they, came from and then going into nonprofit or some type of K-12 (Kindergarten-twelfth grade) education prep program. So we tried to find jobs, or I definitely tried to find jobs that could still, you know, help hone in my skills that are transferrable to get back into higher ed. But it took a long time to do that. So, I mean that's kind of more of my, educational professional side (laughs) about me. I guess, on a more personal side, I'm the first born of two. So I have a younger brother, two years younger than me. I, you know, grew up, like I said, all over the place. My parents are, my mom is from the Philippines and then my dad's Chinese. So he's from China, Hong Kong. They both immigrated to the states probably when they were fifteen, sixteen. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: Yeah. So they were like teenagers. So they still kind of had deep cultural ties to their homelands, but then also was at that point in where they were at school, where they could become more acclimated to their American culture and things like that. So I kind of, I wanted to be, say like, I'm one and a half, two generation kind of in a sense where they understood some of, you know, American norms and values and things like that, but at the same time had that duality of, how do we stay culturally close to ourselves and things like that. So it, growing up I still kind of, you know, butt heads in, in a sense (laughs) with my parents. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: Like, well, that's not how I feel doing that now. Meyer: Yeah Saldivar: You know? I mean, even my grandma had immigrated later on and so, I had a lot of my family in the Bay Area. The San Francisco, San Jose, or Stockton area. And my Chinese grandma, R.I.P. (Rest In Peace) love her to death. She was very, very strict Chinese ma--grandma. And where she tried to marry me off so (laughs), I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. (laughs). I mean, I was too young to understand what was going on, but at least my mom was like, “We are not doing that!” Meyer: Oh my God. Saldivar: Yeah (laughs). Meyer: How, how old were you? Saldivar: I was probably about seven or eight when my grandma was grooming-- Meyer: Oh-- Saldivar: Me to, you know, prepare for like, have you met this child? Or, you know, I have a friend's son who's on my oh. What the heck? (Meyer laughs) No! Meyer: Your mom is like, “We're not, (both talking) we’re not doing this—" Saldivar: Yeah, exactly. We're not exactly (laughs). Meyer: Oh my gosh. Saldivar: Yeah. It was kind of neat because my, my--the thing is because my dad is a firstborn male of the family. So he's spoiled and everything and oh, since I'm the first daughter, you know, we have to make sure she's married off well. And then my, my brother who's actually considered the first-born male of the firstborn son gets so much better benefits and perks than I do. So even though I'm the first born (unintelligible) oh no, you're a female. But my son--my brother still gets like, everything. Meyer: And he's the baby. So it's, yeah. (Saldivar laughs). Oh man. Saldivar: Yeah. So that's kind of just a little bit about me. I know that was, a real deep dive into a lot of stuff. Meyer: No, that's great. That's great. Um, yeah, I, well that answers my question about your educational journey too. Which is perfect. Saldivar: There you go. Meyer: Um, and then I was just going to ask, how did you first become aware of the Cross-Cultural Center when you came onto Cal State San Marcos’ campus? Saldivar: That’s a, (laughs) that's actually a really good question. Um— Meyer: How did you wander in? Yeah. Saldivar: Yeah. And I think that's always the funny thing is people don't know about it. I think what was hard was when I was here on campus and versus like how it is now, it wasn't visible. Meyer: Oh OK. Saldivar: You--it was not even like an indicator. There was no signage, there was not like, how the Veterans Center is literally right there in the middle of campus or, you know, the Student Center is right there. The, the Cross-Cultural Center, or what it was called formerly is the Multicultural Center was in a back office kind of like this. It was hidden in Craven Hall (now Administrative Building), fourth floor way in. So when you walk in, it's not right there. It's like you have to go halfway through, then down this tiny corridor and then it's a door. Meyer: Um-Hm. Saldivar: And it's, you think, okay, either it's a janitor’s closet or it's where they keep all the, um, what do you call it, the computer stuff and everything— Meyer: Yeah Saldivar: Like a storage closet. You're just like, “Where is this place? Am I in the right place?” And (they’re) like, “Keep going down. (laughs) You're following the right area”. Like we had signs and arrows and everything. In different bright colors to make it feel like it's okay, (Meyer laughs) it's a safe space. You're coming to, you're know, we're not going to kidnap you or anything. (both talking) Meyer: This is not a meat locker. Saldivar: Right, exactly. You're going to make it out alive. Meyer: Yeah, yeah. Saldivar: The way I ended up getting there, funny enough was I was just going through--when I returned back to school, my focus was just get my degree and go, you know, I wasn't even thinking about being involved, you know, student life, things like that. That wasn't even on my radar, until I started taking community, what do you call it? Sociology classes. So my major was Communications and I minored in Sociology and Ethnics Studies and my Ethnic Studies teacher --I am terrible with names (laughs). I see her face Dr. Elsie, (whispers: Elsie), no, Elsa, Elsie (Dr. Sharon Elise), something like that. Meyer: Uh-Hm. Salvidar: And she--was talking about, you know, race and, racial identity and things like that. And so she was very involved in the school, and something came up in where there’s a position for ASI, our Associated Student Inc. for a Director of Diversity and Cultural Events or, something like that. I'm terrible remember(ing), those kind of details years back. But yeah, it was with ASI and I, so it was a Cultural and and Diversity Coordinator. So it'd be in charge of all the events regarding, you know, student orgs ,and things like that. So she know would talk about in this class and she was like, you know, this is available if you guys are interested and stuff. And then she personally took me aside and she's like, “I think you should go for this Dee.” I was like, “really?” She was like, “I think you might be good for it. You should try it out.” I was like, “Okay, cool.” That was my thing. (laughs) I was just like, okay, people see something in me, I guess I'll try it. It wasn't anything like, oh, I have so wanted this job, or I should be interested. It's like, okay, let me just fill it out and stuff and you know, and ask questions, you know, your personal identity. What do you think you would bring on campus? Why is cultural diversity important to you and, and to the students? Those are kind of some of the things I remember. And, and you know, I was filling it out, just kind of taking a lot of the experience. I grew up, you know, being a military child and being in San Francisco and other places and having to adjust to those. It's just, you know, feeling--just more of creating a belonging on campus. Meyer: Um-Hm. Salvidar: Because especially during that time, there was not a lot of students of color on, on campus. It was very predom-- we called it the pre-primarily, PWI. Primarily a White Institution (Predominately White Institution). That was, what do you call it? Oh geez, I forgot what you call it. Commuter (student body). Yeah. So it was very big commuter student, there was no student life on campus. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: It wasn't as lively as it was, is now or a couple years before. So I applied for it. I think I was the only one (laughs) that applied for it because I don't think, because ASI wasn't even really built up either. We were such a young campus. And so I interview it. I ended up being on the board and so that was kind of my shoe into student activities and student involvement. And that's where I got to meet other people, meet other campus organizations, realized, oh my gosh, there's much more to on-campus than going to class. Meyer: Right. Saldivar So from there I ended up, you know, having to--part of that position allowed me to network and coordinate with a lot of different folks on campus, which was great. And that's when I caught the attention of Alexis (Montevirgen, second Associate Director of Multicultural Programs). Who was a part of the Multicultural Center at a student affair, student activities department. And he would be attending some of the stuff that ASI would be putting on. And he's like, “So have you thought of, you know, maybe wanting to move into student, you know, affairs and activities? You know, I have a position that'd be coming up,” you know, but because with ASI it was only a one-year thing. So it wasn't like you could continue. I mean, I could continue on if I wanted to, but, you know it was just my foot on the door just trying to see what, it was about. And he's like, “Yeah, you know, we actually have a center that you could be a peer educator and all this stuff come by. Let's talk. You know, I'd love to see what you'd be interested in doing for us.” And, and, it was kind of amazing to see a male Filipino-- Meyer: Um-Hm Saldivar: Faculty, staff member on campus. Because it was like, wait, there's somebody that looks like me and he's interested in what I have to do and talk about. So it was kind of really neat to kind of see him as a mentor and a friend and somebody that looks like me, but could understand also culturally, you know, where we come from. What was interesting was I hadn't really explored my Filipino identity as much, because I wasn't really exposed to it other than my family. And so I felt more closely to my Chinese American identity. So him being Filipino and being like, hey, you know, I see you, let’s work together. Let's figure out what we could do. I felt like it was an opportunity for me not just to, you know, be a part of that center, but also to help kind of selfishly myself, kind of, I learned who I am. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, in this role. So after I did ASI for the one year, they're like, “So you want to continue?” I'm like, “Actually I want to move over there (points, laughs).” So they, they always laugh because Sarah Gallegos was my supervisor for ASI. So her and Alexis, you know, would work together and stuff and she's like, “You stole my person (laughs).” So they would always joke about that and everything. “Stop stealing my people!” Meyer: They're poaching. Saldivar: Right. Exactly. He literally just straight up poached me. He's like, so you interested. So that's how I ended up being a part of the Multicultural Center as, it was, it was a different title at that time. It was, I, I don't know if it was ambassador or, because it wasn't even called peer educator at that time. It was just kind of like, I was his assistant because the peer educator program hadn't, hadn't even started yet. We were in, he was in the— the works of actually building it. So I kind of came on more as a, as like an executive assistant to him helping him organize what is the peer education supposed to look like? What are some programs we could start doing? Things like that. So looking at more of the administrative logistic planning of it before even, just even being a student. So it was kind of nice because, I was able to do some of my work experience to like, hey, you know, let's get my type A personality going here. Yeah. So (laughs). Yeah. So that's how I fell into it. And I was there for almost two and a half, three years. Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: Yeah. I continued on with it. He was just like, yeah, you're staying on. I'm like, okay. (laughs). Meyer: Aw. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: Well, it sounds like you were really essential to the early space. Saldivar: I want to say I am, I guess. I mean, I was just in it because I felt like it was such a great opportunity to create a space for students who, didn't feel like they belonged on campus. And just to be with great minds who want to think big and create a culture and a system of, what do you call it? Just, you know, integrate a lot of things on campus that wasn't there. And it was, I felt like it was one of, what do you call it? Now, I'm looking back like I'm, when I was young I was like, “I’m in it. This is fun. Yay!” Just go ahead and do this because, you know, I just want to be part of it and I'm now looking back like, I was in an incubator. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: I literally was in a startup not realizing it was a startup. So yeah. I was kind of looking back like, oh dang, (laughs). I did all that. Oh— Meyer: You were at the beginning of something really big. Yeah. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: So it sounds like the Cross-Cultural Center, or the Multi-Cultural Center as it was called, was a lot smaller when you started. Saldivar: Oh my gosh, yes (both laugh). Meyer : How would you say it was different when you started and when you left? Saldivar: Oh my gosh. We had people (laughs), the campus community actually knew what the Cross-Cultural Center was. So that was really, it was so interesting to see within the two-and-a-half, three years how much it had grown. When I started it was just me and Alexis in this small little room, red couches, you know, we had some posters up. We had a bookcase full of just some, you know, books that we called “our library” (laughs). Now that, I think have a huge like, depository of information that people can have resources to. But at that time we didn't even have this library, so it was-- Meyer: Wow. Saldivar: I know it's hard to imagine (laughs). So there wasn't like a lot of resources focused on DEI (Diversity and Equity) work, you know, even it was even called DEI work at that time. It was just called, you know , you know, diversity and multiculturalism. So a lot of the lingo has even changed from the time I was there to now. I think what, I mean, just breaking it down to even certain years, the first year was just building, just building a foundation, getting down what is the Multi-Cultural Center about what’s its place on campus and how can we be in collaboration and community with all the other centers that were even being established. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So it was nice that it was a really good time for the Cross-Cultural Center, Women's Center, um, the LGBT (Lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, and transgender) Center, the Pride Center, all those centers kind of working together to build each other up. You know, we knew that it was important to have these centers, but we didn't wanna have just one centralized one that filled everything. Its like, no, we need to really, I don't wanna say--segment them. But we, they did needed to be segmented because there's all different sorts of needs for each one. But we also wanted to work together as, you know, we are here together as a whole but specifically they could help you with these certain things. You know. So we were, that was such a great time in where we didn't, we weren't fighting for resources and I think still they're not fighting for resources, so, which is good. So we started in Craven Hall, the small little area, and I think what really helped was just having students come and just hang out and know there's a space for them. Yeah. It ended up being a lot of API (Asian Pacific Islander) students of course. So, you know, it kind of, it was hard to get that stigma off for a while that's like, “Oh, that's the Asian Center.” It's like, no, we're actually open to a lot more people. But it just happened to be a lot of Asians in here. Meyer: You're not the first person who said that. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: I’ve heard that a few times. Saldivar: Yeah. I know Floyd is still dealing with that. (both talking) Meyer: Yeah, Floyd mentioned that. Saldivar: I’m sorry, I'm so sorry (laughs). Myere: No— Saldivar: Because what, what was nice about the, the, the Multicultural Center or when it changed to the Cross-Cultural Center was that it was a nice incubator for student organizations to start too. There was, since there's no space for folks, there's no space to grow. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: And no space to, to create communities. And so that's kind of what happened with the Cross-Culture Center--well, I like Cross-Cultural Center, but it's Multicultural Center--back then Multicultural Center (laughs) was, it was an incubator for, for student orgs (organizations). So Kamalayan Alliance actually started from there. The Filipino organization that me, and actually my husband was a part of the, the found founding group. Yeah. So we founded that and it's crazy to see how far they are. And I was, oh god, 20 something years later. Oh, that makes me feel old. And they're like, “Oh yeah, 26th anniversary.” I'm like, “has it been 26 years?” Meyer: You're like, can we say 15 maybe? Saldivar: Can we just say anniversary? Just, just leave the number out. Meyer: Yeah (both laugh). Saldivar: It's crazy to see how many generations have gone through that. I know--what do you call, APSA? The Asian Pacific Student Society? The Vietnamese group. I know we also helped, and this was later on also, you know, the Black Student Union, things like that. And kind of just developing and growing and finding spaces to find each other. And then being able to create that community. And then if they needed to go off and do their own thing, that was fine too. But we just were happy that, hey, people found each other through here and they were able to do something and create action. So that was kind of a really, something that I hold dear to my heart is that there was a space for students to do that and to find friendships and god, I don't know how many of them got married to each other. Meyer: Aw. Saldivar: (laughs) There’s a lot of people that are like, oh, you're still together. We're still best friends and now y'all have kids. And it's crazy how much the, the, that space had, impacted so many people so many years later. Meyer: Wow. Yeah. Saldivar: So I guess, so what else happened there? I mean, there's just so much (laughs). We did move three times, the time I was there, so it was nice that they realized this space is too small for us. They ended up, the main office ended up taking note of how many students were coming in a day. So then they could show to, I don't know, the chancellor, the provost, I still don't understand the hierarchy. And I'm a student and I'm in higher ed(ucation). And I was like, what (laughs) You know, they're like, there's a need here. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: You see what's happening is that these students are coming in, they're using the space, they're doing this, this, this, and this. So they were provide--so us, us students just hanging out and chilling and doing whatever we're doing there. They were using us, as I won’t saying using us. But, you know, they were using us as a case study saying, “Hey, this is something important to us. Look what's happening. We need a bigger space.” And so what was nice is that through, I think between 2005, five and six or six or six or seven, we ended up moving us to the bottom floor of the Craven Hall. Or was it the first floor? It's one of the, the lower ends. Which was nice because not only was it semi-visible to, the students now, because people would have to walk by the center to get to the one stop. And we were in front of that really nice, painted mural. But they also, it was a bigger space. It was an awkward space, but it was bigger. It was this weird triangle and were like, how are we gonna fit anything? So it was really weird, like sectioned off stuff. It was weird. But what was nice is that because of being more visible people were able to see, “Hey, wait, what's going on in there? Oh, that looks cool.” Then we were able to even promote more of our programs and be like, hey, have you guys heard of this? Or, you know, here's a flyer, here's A-frames. Things like that. The red couches still, still came with us because the red couches came (both laugh) wherever we went. Everybody knew us by the red couches. I think, that was really one of the key things that brought a lot of students in, because you know, I mean, before we just had-- Meyer: Benches Saldivar: Benches. And basic chairs. And it was not comfortable. It didn't feel welcoming. People like, “Hey, you wanna take a nap? We got some red couches.” People just pass out there next thing (Meyer laughs) you know, they made it a home. You know. Other things that happened in there was when a lot of programming was starting to be developed. So I was there as the assistant for about six months until the new semester kicked in. And me and Alexis had come up, helped develop the peer educator program. So the peer educator program consisted of four peer educators. I was kind of the main lead one. Jay (Franklin) was hired on as, the LGBTQ peer educator. And then there was Brittany, which I forgot her, what her specific one was. And then there was Stephanie who was like spiritual and religious. So we were kind of sectioned off into certain areas of our expertise to kind of help reach out to those groups. At that time it kind of worked because it was such a small population of the students, we could do that. As time has gone on, they just made 'em all peer educators and they were just kind of more cross trained in everything and anything. And whoever had those expertise would be kind of referred to. So it became more of a referral system than it was like, “Oh, you go to Jay because he's specifically this identity.” But it was great because we were able to all really learn from each other. Oh yeah. And then there was Cher, how can I forget, I forgot Cher. Cher is fun. Cher just, her (laughs) demeanor was so different, she was, very introverted, but once you got to know her, oh, she had the most sassiest mouth ever. And I'm just like, “Cher! We can't say that!” (Both laugh) But she was great. She, we, we came really close. And I think that's what I love about being in that peer educator program that we became really close. You know, we were all in it brand new. First of all, we were all students of color, so we're like, oh my god, there's more you know (laughs). And it was a great learning opportunity for all of us. So the things that we didn't know or understand, it was a safe space for us to explore that. So as peer educators, you know, we came up with some programming for the students. So we did things, and it kind of kind of all organically came together. You know, one, one of the things that we all worked on was called Multicultural Mondays. So on Mondays, once or every twice a month, I forgot what days.(laughs). There was a, you know, a certain schedule to it. We would, look at certain identities or things that would be meaningful for the students to wanna explore. So just kind of added programming to it. One of the things that I love that I hold dear to my heart was one of the programs we did called “Dinner Dialogues.” That was a very pricey program, but it worked (laughs). I'm like, “Do we have a budget?” (Both laugh) I didn't know what that was. I'm just like, “Can I have money for this?” Meyer: Well, Jay was saying, getting people in with food always worked. Saldivar: Oh gosh. Yeah. We ended up having a fridge and a microwave, but until we moved down to the, to the second floor. So yeah. That's one of things. Like we got food, we got pizza because, the campus was a food desert. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: We had nothing other than the Dome (food services originally operated by San Diego State University’s Aztec Shops). And the Dome was one of, first of all kind of expensive, and two, it was gross (both laugh). It was, oh. Oh no. So one of the things that we came up with called Dinner Dialogues, and it was a really great, I wanna say experience of how that organically happened as a program. It was just a bunch of students, hanging out in the Cross-Cultural Center past four o'clock, which was very rare because nobody wanted to be on campus past two. Usually the classes ended at two, you were gone. But these students felt safe. They felt home. They felt like, this is where I want to be. So we all ended up just getting food. I think this was when Chick-fil-A opened and we all got free, what do you call it? Chicken sandwich passes. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So we all went got like (laughs), thirty-five sandwiches. Oh, it was crazy. And yeah, we all sat there, we're just all eating. And we started talking about-- it was my, my good friend Jacob Dansler, he was, Black male and it was some of us and we were all, you know, all from different backgrounds and stuff. And we were talking about some of the challenges that we've had as a person of color or what it mean to be a man of color, or a woman of color or, you know, LGBQ person of color. And it was really cool to kind of just sit there and have that kind of dialogue with each other and learn and be able to ask questions that were, I wouldn't say in, in a way that we didn't feel like we were being judged for asking these questions. It was a very safe space and a space for learning and, and feeling, you know, we actually have a lot more in common than we realized. And people were like, you know, we need to make this a program. This is cool. I would love to have these kind of spaces where we could talk about these things like this. And so that's where Dinner Dialogues ended up coming out and we're like, yeah, free meal, but at the same time, let me talk with you about things that maybe we don't have these opportunities to talk about all the time . So it was really great. That program kicked off really well and we had ended up having, I think it was for two years until I actually ended up leaving. And then I don't know what happened if it continued or if it morphed and changed ‘cause it always changes with people who come in. But yeah, I think that was one of really one of the main things that kicked off there. And then Jay, because he was the LGBTQ peer educator, he also was able to bridge a lot of the communities together and start, start planning out the Pride Center. And so that was kind of really nice in where the, the Multicultural Center was the hub of creating more and building more and growing out. So while he was there, we worked together in supporting not only the, oh gosh, LGBT group, but then also, okay, how are we gonna get a space for these students as well? So that was a really big achievement for Jay and for the Cross-Cultural Center in that sense. And it was nice that we were able to support each other in building those communities. You know, mine was Kamalayan, his was-- Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, the pride, oh, we call it, I think Britney was helping with the BSU (Black Student Union) part, things like that. So we were all there to support each other, support the students and just, I don't know, we were just doing it because we wanted to. It's just ‘cause we had the passion for it and we loved it. I don't think we—it was like fully intentional what we were doing. And until we're like, oh crap, look what we did (laughs). Meyer: Yeah. You wanted to create a space for you and the people on campus and it just kept being a space. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: That's great. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: All right. Saldivar: I know, I think I've-- there's so much. I hope I'm catching everything (laughs). Meyer: No, you're, you're actually answering some of the questions before I even ask 'em, which is great-- (both talking) Saldivar: Oh, perfect. Okay good. Meyer: Yeah. How did it, how did the Cross-Cultural Center help you develop and express your cultural identity? Saldivar: Oh gosh. I think it made me, I think it was, it was, that was just one of the many layers upon my education studies here. Because in my communications major, and because minoring in sociology and ethnic studies, those classes helped me really look internally of who I was, what my identities meant, how they came across to, to the students, to the people that I work with. You know, really being able to put all that theory and then the Cross-Cultural Center allowed me to put it into practice. Oh god, I sound old (laughs). Meyer: No. Saldivar: Being able to put those together. I'm like, ah, makes me (unintelligible). Meyer: No that's, that's a great way to put it. Yeah. Saldivar: Yeah. And I think that helped me a lot in regards to the development of who I was becoming and who I am now. You know, coming into a college, like I said, you know, first gen(eration) Chinese, Filipino-American, I'd like, what does that, what did that mean to me? You know, even when I, I went into college, I didn't even know, I didn't even know that I was considered first gen. I was just like, yeah, I'm going to college because everybody says I should, or, you know, my parents weren't able to go and they said I should go, so I'm gonna go, you know, you just don't have that frame of reference until you get into a space. They're like, “Oh, are you the first one to go in your family? Oh, so you’re the first gen.” Wait, what, what does that mean? So, and so, you know, not realizing there's the support systems and things like that to help you and understand and develop that. And I think that's what really helped me was with that Cross-Cultural Center is to be--is to meet not only my community and people and friends, lifelong friends, who’re gonna help me, you know, be where I am today. But also meeting the mentors and the folks who do the work and how they've helped me understand more of, I guess the practice and, and the acknowledgement of like, it's okay to be uncomfortable. You know, it's, it, it's it, you have to be uncomfortable with the un-- you have to be comfortable with the uncomfortable, you know, these are things that I don't know, and it's okay not to know. You know, you're gonna move into certain spaces where you're gonna feel uncomfortable and how do you unpackage that? How do you take that and make it into a learning opportunity? And that's one thing that Dilcie Perez has-- she taught me throughout my time being there . She was such a great guidance and mentor for me that I give her kudos to everything about what I do with the work that I do. I remember when I was asked to return back for the 15th-year anniversary of the Cross-Cultural Center, and they asked me and Jay to be speakers, I was like, “Oh, good lord, what am I supposed to talk about?” (both laugh) There's so much to talk about! And it took me a while to realize what I wanted to say. And it came back in, to the fact of being intentional. And that always stuck with me. The one thing that Dilcie always said to me, she was like, what's your intentions on what you know, of what you're doing? Why are you doing this? Meyers: Um-Hm. Salvidar: So I wasn't just doing something for the sake of doing it, but just to understand, you know, is there an impact? What are the consequences? What is the bigger picture that you're trying to achieve? Even (Former Dean of Students, Gregory) Toya was a really great, mentor and where he asked, “What are the students learning outcomes?” I was like, students what (laughs)? What, what? He's like, yeah. Why are we putting on this? Why are you putting on this project? Or why are you putting on this program? What do you want the students to learn? So that really gave me a great foundation and understanding of, why am I doing this? Just, am I doing it for the sake of doing it? Is it self-serving, or is it really here for the students? And being kind of in a, in a selfish (selfless?) teaching moment. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So I, I wanna say that the Cross-Cultural center really helped me build, you know, a framework or a lens of how I move forward in doing whatever I do or move, as I grow up, you know, it's like, oh my gosh, it made me mature (laughs)! Meyer: They gave you a little toolkit with all the stuff you-- Salvidar: Right. Meyer: You needed for adult life. Saldivar: Exactly. And I, and I thank them for that. ‘Cause now that I'm, you know, now in kind of their space. In their spot. It's so weird to have that flip in where I was looking for mentors who look like me or who I could connect to. But now I'm in that space and where I'm the mentor and where I'm reaching out to students say, “Hey, I see you. Let me, you know, I'm here for you. If you need a space or someone to talk to, I'm here.” You know, and it's so weird to be in that odd spot (laughs) right now, but it's because of them that they were such great models by example that I now have those skills and that toolkit to be like, okay, you know what? I know what it feels like to be in that spot. Let me help you get to where you wanna be. Let me help you unpackage what's going on with your lives and things like that. You know, just an example was a couple weeks ago I had a grad student, who identifies as Chinese American reach out to me. And she's like, I wanna be in where you are at in doing marketing and communication. But how do I, you know, deal with the cultural, challenges with my parents who want me to be in the medical field. Meyer: Um-Hm. Salvidar: And I was like, oh girl, let's talk (both laugh)! You know? And so it was really nice and, and I would say the experience of being, being able to talk to her and her just at the end feeling so relieved and feeling like she could find someone that she could connect to. Someone that she was able to be like, oh my god, I'm not alone in this feeling and this experience and it's okay to feel what I'm feeling. Was such an elated moment for me to be like, oh my gosh, I can still help students (laughs). You know-- Meyer: You took that weight off her shoulders. Saldivar: Yeah. And it felt good to be, you know, I was there and I didn't have anyone to help me with navigating that. And I'm glad that I was able to be there for her to have those experiences that I could be able to connect with someone else who's going through the same thing. So yeah, the Cross-Cultural Center helped me grow a lot, Personally a lot. In understanding who I am, what space I take, what space I should take, you know, what being present means. In spaces that don't have many people of color or female people of color. Yeah. I mean it's (laughs). It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. Meyer: And I understand that you made a lot of friends there and met your husband at the Cross-Cultural Center. Saldivar: (laughs) Yes. Meyer: Tell us a little bit about how you guys met. Saldivar: Oh my gosh. (laughs). Meyer: Well, it's relevant to the Cross-Cultural Center, so. Saldivar: Right. Yeah. I mean, that's the funny thing. It's just, wow, y'all (both laugh) we're, we're like, y'all met and y'all married, now you have a kid. Okay! Meyer: So you're not the only ones. There's multiple. Saldivar: There were several people who, I would say yeah, got married some of our best friends and stuff. So me and Randy (Saldivar), met through a friend. It was not intentional when we first met. I was actually working with ASI at the time. So we were, I was at the cancer, one of the cancer walks, the Susan G. Koman cancer walks that we had on here at the field. I was a part of, you know, the walking team and my good friend Trish at the time, she was another Filipina-American and who were able to connect, was there with me to help support. And we were both at the check-in, check-in table at that time. And this is when we had the Nokia phones. Okay. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: This is how old it was. So she (laughs)--her. Randy had called her ‘cause I guess he was studying at the library. He was like, “Hey, what's up? What are you doing?” She's like, “Hey, come down.” You know, “I'm with my friend Dee, and we're at this thing, you know, just come and hang out.” He's like, okay. I didn't even know who he was. I didn't know who this guy was. She's like, oh, my friend's coming over. I'm like, okay, cool. I'm sitting there with my--I was in a Japanese 101 at this time, so I have my Japanese book out. I'm reading it, you know, he comes down with his boom box and (Meyers laughs) and I’m, I was like, what are you doing? He's like, oh yeah, you know, just B-boying. And I'm like, okay, cool. Whatever. You know, I didn't know anything about the hip-hop culture and stuff. And she's like, “Oh, this is my friend Randy, Randy this Dee,” I'm like, “Cool. Okay.” And he looks down and he is like, “Oh, you're studying Japanese?” I'm like, “Yeah, I'm in 101.” He's like, “Oh, I took it.” I was like, “Oh cool. How was it?” He's like, “Oh, it's really fun. He's like, do you need help with it?” I'm like, “No, I'm cool, thanks.” So (both laugh). So that's was my first initial meeting with him. Not even a thought. He was just a passing thought. And there was another time where they had the International Festival here on campus, and it was me and Trish again. And we're eating Ramen sitting on the floor. Randy comes by, says hi again. And this is a time where we had the old school, film. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: So we didn't have phones or anything. It was just, yeah, he was going around taking pictures, right, and--but this is where you could actually get it digitally downloaded, which was weird. On a CD, and he had taken a picture of me and Trish and it wasn't until years later when we started dating where we're going through photos. And it was labeled “Trish and Friend.” Meyer: Oh my God. (laughs) Saldivar: I was like-- Meyer: That's your wife. Saldivar: I was like, Randy, that's, that's me (both laugh). He was like, wait, what? He looks back, oh my god, I took a picture of you two (laughs). And we couldn’t stop dying. Just, we had all of these opportunities that we had met. And nothing. He wasn't attracted to me. I wasn't attracted to him. We had no clue. We even met each other. We're like, ah-ha. Cool. Okay. Bye. It wasn't until our friend Trish had decided when, you know after we were kind of starting the Cross-Cultural Center and stuff. It's, you know, let's create a, a student organization for Filipino-Americans or folks who were interested in the Filipino-American culture. Great. So she asked me to be on board. My friend Marvin, asked Randy to be on it, and her friend Katie. So it was the five of us. And we, we, that's when we literally first intentionally met each other. Like, oh, hey, okay. I thought of him as a little brother. I was like, cool (laughs), you know, whatever. And so then we would go to the Cross-Cultural Center, or the Multicultural Center to hold meetings just to hang out, you know? ‘Cause Alexis ended up being our advisor as well. So then we would ask him, okay, how do we, you know, how do we start this (student organization)? Or what are things that we need to do? You know, we ended up having our first GBM, you know, and, and saying, okay. So we started kind of building out the, the, the student org here and there. During that time there was probably about--we knew each other for about a good eight months by now. We just still friends. We just kil-, I don't even pay attention to him. He don't pay attention to me. We're just like, yeah, cool. Have you seen this movie? Cool. Have you seen this? Okay. Yeah. We're just hanging out. And then, masquerade ball was around the corner. And all of us were like, yeah, let's go. Let's go to masquerade ball. Woo! You know, let's just dress up and dance. And it was my friend Trish who was like, “So have you thought of, what do you think of Randy?” And I was like, what do you mean what do I think of Randy? “Like, you know, what do you think of him? Like, you think he's cute or something?” And I was like, “Uh, he's okay. I mean, he's nice.” Like she, I, you know, she's trying to plant seeds in my head. On the flip end, she's planting seeds on his end. Meyer: Oh. Saldivar: “So what do you think about Dee?” I was like, what! Meyer: One of those friends-- Saldivar: Yeah. Yeah. She's like, I see something, but you both don't see it. So she was playing matchmaker. And so one time, we were supposed to all meet and go to, a GBM meeting, or we call FCC, Filipino Collegiate Collaborative. So this is where, all the schools across San Diego, USC (University of Southern California), UCSD (University of San Diego), San Diego State and us (CSUSM) were supposed to meet all the Filipino American organizations. So we worked together outside of the school to work with other student orgs, which was really cool. So we were supposed to have our meeting, and it was supposed to be me, Trish, and Randy. And Trish was like, “Oh no, I'm sick. I can't go, but if you two wanna go.” I'm like, okay (laughs). Literally, that's kind of how it ended up going. “Okay. So, you wanna go to like, masquerade ball together?” “Sure. Okay.” So it ended up kind of being our first date in a sense. And then from there, you know, we were kind of dating and-- Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: Because we were still involved in, you know, Kamalayan Alliance. We were coming, as you could tell to the center, he would help out and volunteer a lot, you know, and he saw, you know, Alexis, he's like, “Hey, another Filipino. Yay!” So, you know, we all started kind of building the community and you know, we're spending more time together. He's helping out a lot. And then next thing you know, it's, I'm the one who asked him out (laughs). I was like, so, you know what's going on? (Meyer laughs) And he is like, hey, yeah. I was like, “So do you wanna go out or something?” And he looks at me and he's like, “Yeah, sure. Where do you want to eat?” (Meyer laughs) I was like, “What?” “Yeah. You said you wanna go out, so where do you want to eat?” I'm like, oh my god, you’re so dense. (laughs). I was like, no, do you, wanna be, you know, exclusive? He was like, “Oh yeah. Okay, cool.“ Meyer: Where do you want to eat? Right? Saldivar: He's like, uh, so this-- it tells you so much about his personality. We are so different from each other (laughs), you know, and, he's such a great support. He, when we talk about it, we laugh about it. I'm always the very type A business type of person behind the scenes. Let's get the logistics and stuff going. He's the PR (public relations) of it all. He can talk people's ear off, he can find people's stories, he can connect with them. And then once he does a connection here, here's Dee. And then, you know, I get all this stuff taken care of (laughs). So it was really cool. We've, we worked really well in tandem. And I, I'm surprised at the age that we were at, we were early twenties nobody knew we were dating. Meyer: Oh wow. Saldivar: We were very professional in a sense of where nobody knew in the student org or even sometimes in the Cross-Cultural Center that we were even together, we kept it very, professional. Didn't do the whole PDA (Public Display of Affection) thing. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: No. You know, we're not here to do that. We're here to serve our community. And I think at such a young age and stage of our relationship of being able to do that, helped us really kind of be able to be really good partners. In the sense where what we do here is for, you know, a different purpose versus what we do here. Meyer: Right Saldivar: I think it was the one time (laughs) at a GBM, this is where the students really started growing. You know, we had almost forty to fifty members by the second, third year, and we had people come through the center and stuff. (laughs) When GBM, he went to go off to go get lunch and he is like, let me go grab something before the, the, the meeting and I'll see you. I'll be right back. And then he gave me a kiss. Everyone freaked out. They're like, oh, what? Meyer: Oh. Saldivar: They're like, what? (laughs) We’re like, what? They’re like what was that? (points, laughs), and we’re like, oh, y'all don't know yet? Like really a core small group of us. The ones right here knew, you know. Meyer: But everyone else. Saldivar: Everyone else, because I guess because they didn't hang out with us outside of the Cross-Cultural Center or at our house or when we went to the dinner and things like that. We really kept it. We, we didn't know we were that good at keeping it very separate. You know, when we go out to sushi or dinner, hang out at people's houses and we were, you know, completely different people. But we were in a school setting or the Kamalayan setting, we were very--we are officers, we are representatives of this, you know, this space. We need to be kind of, you know, professional. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So yeah. That moment that kiss happened, people were like, (gasps)? And we had people, no, you're lying. You're all lying to us. You just, no, you're trying to prank, someone was so sure we were probably, we were trying to just get a rise out of people. We're like, no, we've been together for like six months now. They're like, (gasps) no! (laughs). So it was, it was crazy. It was, that's how we ended up meeting, you know, he graduated in Kinesiology in 2009. Yeah. He--and what was nice is that in, he was also the president of Kamalayan, probably within the first two or three years. And the Cross-Cultural Center helped in creating a lot of the success of Kamalayan and where we had the first API (Asian Pacific Islanders) graduate ceremony. Meyer: Oh. Saldivar: Now that has been going on. And we used the center, oh my gosh, that was so crazy. (laughs). We had used the Cross-Cultural Center as a place to build the graduate, the, the planning of the graduate. And we also made the stoles. This is how we had no budget. So we went to Michael's (craft store) and bought the thickest red stole, I mean, red ribbon we could. Meyer: Oh yeah. Saldivar: And black puffy paint. Meyer: Oh no. Saldivar: And we're sitting there, (painting) 2005. Meyer: And that never looks even or clean. Saldivar: Oh no. It was a hot, ugly mess. (Meyer laughs) And you know, we put API grad and there's, you know we're trying to sit there and make it dry, so nothing's smearing. We had red ribbons everywhere and Alexis was like, what the heck is going on? I'm like, “We're making stoles!” (Both laugh) And he's like, oh boy. So I'm--yeah. A lot of the things that happened, like I said, the Cross-Cultural Center was an incubator. A lot of things was DIY (Do It Yourself). It was handmade. You had no budget. So what were we gonna do? You know, we had a lot of, thank goodness we had a lot of support from departments and different, areas with, other API folks who were like, yeah, we got budgets that we could go ahead and just hand over to you or, you know, we'll support you or sponsor you in this or sponsor you in that. So, oh, thank goodness for this community because I don't know if we would’ve got where we are today without really, the support of the school to see that there is a need and it wasn't coming up from the president or things like that. It was coming from the ground up. So that was really cool. Meyer: You were asking for what you needed, not having someone tell you. Yeah. Saldivar: Exactly. And they're like, oh, we--that's what made a, I think Cal State San Marcos such a unique school is that they listen to the people from the ground. It's not directives always coming from the top saying, hey, we need this, or you need to do this, or you need to do this. It's like, no, the students are saying something, how can we meet their needs? Type of thing. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: So it's been really cool in seeing that dynamic versus a lot of other institutions that believe or think that, you know, this is what the students want, but not really listening to them. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: So yeah. So yeah, all in all, that's how me and Randy met. And we ended up getting married after I finished my master's program. And then now we have a child. Two of our other friends, Mike and Darlene met through, he was part of Kamalayan and she was a part of VSA, the Vietnamese Student Association. And we worked really well together, or we worked closely together and we ended up being, you know, in the Cross-Cultural Center as well. And so she ended up asking him out and he was like, “Sure, okay. I didn't know you liked me.” (Both laugh). And now they're together, married. And then other, there's another couple come Kamalayan Alliance that also was a part of the Cross-Cultural Center and they ended up doing, PCN together, Filipino Culture Night. Which was another thing the Cross-Cultural Center helped create and establishing a lot of that stuff too. And now they're married (laughs). So yeah, there's a lot of married couples coming out and just, you know, we're still really all in touch with each other. People have ended up, generations after us, one of our good friends Jael he was part of Kamalayan Alliance, I'm not sure if he was part of the board, but now he owns and runs his own polvorón company, called Papa's Polvorón. And where he's now has his--it started out as like a at home kitchen type of thing. And he was at the farmer's markets. Now he has his product in a lot of the Filipino stores, across the nation. So it's like, geez, (laughs). Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, it's really nice to see where all of the students and people who've been through the Cross-Cultural Center and where they are now. You know, and I think that's just one of the biggest rewards I see. Being a part of that community was like, wow, I was there to see y'all start like, “I don't know what I wanna do. I just wanna go and, eat all you can eat sushi.” To, now they're having families and having own businesses and doing great things and great work, you know? So Yeah. So yeah. That's how I met my husband (laughs). Long story short. Meyer: Well it's so intertwined with the story of the Center for you. So I think it's really cool the, you know. Yeah. Saldivar: When we, took our engagement photos we came back to the center, we came back to the campus because this has so much meaning for us. Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know-- Meyer: I'll add the pictures, to the file later. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: But, just so people know what you're talking about, the picture of you when you thought it was, like a conference and it was a surprise actually. Saldivar: Yeah. (laughs) Meyer: That’s that's really sweet. Yeah. What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing going forward as it coexist with these other identity-specific spaces? You said it's kinda like a support, an incubator, it helps kind of foster the activities of the other programs. Saldivar: Yeah. I think when, when it was in, during my time generation, that's what it was. Now, I mean, it's grown so much and where I, I want--in a sad way that I don't recognize it anymore, but that's a good thing. Because that means there has been growth and development and changes. And I'd rather see that than stay where it is stagnant-wise. What role it has now on the campus, I--I don't really know. Meyer: You've been off campus for awhile (laughs). Saldivar: I’ve been off campus for a while, so it's like, oh, I don’t know what it's gonna be. I mean, what they're doing now, it, it--and I want them to continue what they're doing: is to just continue to, to grow support, find changes. I mean, a lot of the things that I've seen is, you know, with their programming has changed. Which I think it's great, it's changing with the times and that's how all centers should be is, you know, they have to go with what's going on with the students. If they're not willing to change or, be flexible, then what's kind of, what's the purpose of the center? Meyer: Yeah. Saldivar: You know, that's kind of the (laughs) thing I could say because I mean, I've been so removed. Meyer: Right. Saldivar: I mean, other than coming back and, you know, being like, “Yay. Hi everybody.” I'm like-- Meyer: You haven't been hands-on with the center for a while. Saldivar: Yeah. Meyer: Of course, of course. Saldivar: Yeah. I'm, I'm the person that used to be here years ago (laughs). “No, don't call me Auntie, please!” (Both laugh) Meyer: And are there any other memories you wanna share that, um, like I know there were retreats that you guys (video cuts out, battery ran down, audio recording) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 
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Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Saldivar, Diana. Interview April 14th 2023.
Description
An account of the resource
Diana Saldivar is a California State University San Marcos alumna. She graduated with her degree in Communications, Sociology and Ethnic Studies. Saldivar worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2004-2007 and was also involved in the Asian Pacific Islander Student Society, Kamalayan Alliance, and with Associated Students Incorporated (student government). In her interview, Saldivar discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center provided her with a sense of belonging on campus and served as a second home. Saldivar explains how the center provided her with lifelong friendships, skills and connections that has helped her become the person she is today. Saldivar recounts how the CCC provided a safe space, allowing for conversations with others that are often deemed controversial, and how the center encouraged those to constantly seek knowledge.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-39
Subject
The topic of the resource
California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance
California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated
California State University. Multicultural Programs
Filipino Americans
Human rights
Student success
San Diego State University
Date
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2023-04-14
Format
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video
Creator
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Diana Saldivar
Contributor
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Madeleine Meyer
Coverage
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San Marcos (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Diana Saldivar
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
Women's experience