5 10 196 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Stella Clark OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Clark, Stella. Interview August 9, 2023. SC027-46 01:26:18 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm California State University San Marcos ; Education, Higher ; California State University San Marcos. Modern Language Studies Department ; Kansas University ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; California State University San Bernadino ; San Bernadino (Calif.) ; Roma (Motion picture : 2018) ; Colonia Roma (Mexico City, Mexico) ; Mexicans--United States ; Mexican Americans--California--San Diego County ; Mexican Americans--Education (Higher) ; Immigrants--United States Stella Clark Sean Visintainer Video ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09.mp4 1.0:|22(4)|31(19)|44(8)|53(8)|72(13)|102(3)|117(3)|127(8)|135(7)|146(14)|162(6)|173(10)|186(7)|201(5)|212(11)|223(6)|238(8)|248(16)|258(10)|268(12)|282(4)|293(3)|304(10)|316(14)|328(9)|338(3)|347(11)|361(6)|377(13)|388(5)|400(13)|415(19)|425(7)|441(7)|451(3)|460(16)|469(15)|481(10)|491(6)|502(15)|517(16)|527(15)|537(3)|548(8)|560(4)|572(12)|591(5)|601(16)|611(14)|621(6)|635(6)|645(16)|653(18)|672(6)|680(15)|690(4)|701(10)|717(3)|731(7)|739(14)|752(5)|763(8)|772(16)|784(6)|794(14)|817(15)|827(12)|837(4)|848(13)|857(17)|866(3)|884(5)|896(4)|906(5)|915(11)|927(6)|940(12)|953(17)|962(9)|972(11)|984(11)|997(13)|1006(14)|1018(5)|1032(13)|1049(9)|1056(3) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/110ee8dd522d39f94e58d60fb1d44cf4.mp4 Other video english 0 Interview Introduction Interview with Dr. Stella Clark, August 9th, 2023. 0 44 Education and life synopsis Stella Clark is originally from Mexico City and moved to the U.S., East Lansing Michigan to be precise, in the eighth grade. She then moved to Oxford Mississippi in which she would be there from her high school years and into college. She discusses the culture shock she experienced and how schools were segregated at the time. Clark then moved to Kansas and received a masters and a PhD at Kansas University. She would eventually meet her husband while attending the university and then move to California and got her first job at California State University, San Bernardino. PhD ; Masters ; Mexico City ; Jose Clark ; Oxford, Mississipi ; East Lansing, Michigan ; California State University, San Bernadino 0 331 Living in Colonia Roma/Moving to U.S. Clark is from Colonia Roma, Mexico and her father first came to the U.S. to pursue his PhD in Texas. Once he finished, Clark's family moved to Lansing, Michigan where her father intended that the whole family would eventually achieve PhDs. Her mother received a PhD in Spanish just like Clark would in the future, and her father received a PhD in economics. Clark then goes on to describe her love for Mexico and how urbane it was compared to where she lived in the United States. She explains the difficulty of living in Michigan in regards to the social and cultural customs. Clark would soon move to Mississippi where she the ethos was similar to Mexico. PhD ; Texas ; Michigan State ; Mississippi ; Lansing, Michigan ; Colonia Roma ; Mexico ; cultural ; social customs 0 949 Spanish skills/Majoring in French Clark explains how she would maintain her Spanish speaking skills within the U.S. by reading novels. She eventually would earn her bachelor's degree in French and would pursue a graduate degree in French as well at KU. However, the department split and she would end up receiving a graduate degree in Spanish. This is where she would take multiple Spanish classes in which Clark not only maintained but advanced her Spanish speaking skills. Clark also spoke Spanish at home and would go on to marry a Cuban immigrant, whom she also spoke Spanish with. Spanish ; French ; Kansas University ; Ole Miss University ; Mississippi ; Cuban ; Married ; Graduate school ; Bachelors 0 1367 Teenage years/Finding her place Clark discusses how the U.S. education system underwent a transformative shift, evolving from a highly regimented structure to a greater emphasis on fostering individual student success. There was more flexibility and freedom within the classroom but still some rigidity that did not line up. Clark explains how she developed faster than most girls and it made it challenging for her to get along with the other teenage girls. It was not until she moved to Oxford, Mississippi that she would feel like she found her place and would meet her childhood best friend. regimented ; education shift ; transformation ; culture shock ; rigidity ; teenage ; mississippi ; 1950's 0 1910 Getting her PhD/ Meeting her husband Clark went to Kansas University (KU) to pursue her PhD in French which would become a PhD in Spanish. She explains how she met her husband at KU and would get married only a year after seeing one another. The main reason for the quick marriage was due to how conservative society was at the time and how she could jeopardize her position at the university. PhD ; Kansas University ; Latin America ; Marriage 0 2374 Clark's first professional position After receiving her PhD Clark would land her first job at California State University San Bernardino and her husband would get a job at the library at the same university. She explains how she would reject various administrative jobs for the sake of her husband. Eventually she would encourage him to go to graduate school so he could have a career out of being a librarian. Clark explains how her and her husband complement one another in terms of their professions. administrative ; career ; PhD 0 2695 Moving to California/Starting at CSUSM Clark explains how California is in such close proximity to Mexico and how it is advertised as paradise. She recalls how she made her switch from working at CSUSB to California State University San Marcos (CSUSM) from her desire to work in administration. However the position at CSUSM was a lot more intense since she had to create a program from scratch. 0 3049 Creating CSUSM's language lab Clark was tasked with creating a language lab at CSUSM and used her connections from CSUSB to help her build the lab. She explains how she built the lab and what was required from her. Clark learned that in order to get the best things one has to wheel and deal and ask for things that would make them excel in their positions. She explains how her focus was to help students become versatile in their career, but also highlighted the importance of faculty supporting them within their journey. &#13 ; language lab ; creating department 0 3602 Clark's dissertation Clark explains how her dissertation in graduate school was very unconventional and all the struggles she went through in order to get it approved. She was using an American method of close reading on Mexican literature in which analyzed the patterns of an individual. She explains how this would later help her in her career and help her understand individuals. dissertation ; academia ; graduate ; levi strauss ; spanish literature ; american literature 0 3926 Challenges of creating a department Clark describes the biggest challenges she experienced when founding the department at CSUSM. She explains how faculty on the campus often forgot that they are working for a community in which the students pay for their own schooling and support themselves. Clark admires how these students genuinely care for their education and want to learn in which was different to the students she taught at KU. She compares how different the students values were at CSUSM than to Kansas University. public education ; Kansas University ; student success 0 4251 What Clark's students have taught her Clark explains the challenges her students would go through but still managed to achieve their academic goals. She has a deep respect for CSUSM's students due to their resilience and desire to actually learn. She explains how she would buy books for her students who may not have been able to afford them and allow them to keep it for their own personal library. hardworking ; resiliance ; student success ; CSUSM student body 0 4643 "Roma" (the movie) Clark explains how the movie Roma perfectly describes what her life was like growing up in Roma, Mexico. The movie allowed her to understand the life of the working class in Mexico and see them from a different vantage point. She also explains how living in the U.S. as an exile how you always will feel a sense of foreignness. exile ; foreignness ; displacement ; mexico ; Roma 0 Video Dr. Stella Clark grew up in Colonia Roma, Mexico City, and moved to the U.S. in her early childhood. She grew up in a family who valued education ; both her parents received a PhD and she was expected to get one as well. Clark received her bachelor's degree in French and her master's and PhD degrees in Spanish. She began her professional career at California State University, San Bernardino and eventually applied to California State University San Marcos, where she founded the Modern Languages Department and created the university's language lab. Clark discusses how she made an impact not only on her students learning but life as well by encouraging all to pursue their academic dreams, and on the struggles that working students and women students face in getting an eduction. Visintainer: All right. Clark: Okay. Visintainer: All right. Thank you, Stella. This is Sean Visintainer, head of Special Collections at California State University San Marcos. Today I'm interviewing Dr. Stella Clark for our University Archives oral history collection. The date is August 9th, 2023, and this recording is happening on Zoom. Dr. Clark, thank you so much for interviewing with us today. Clark: I'm happy to be here answering your questions and having a chat with you. Visintainer: Yes. So we're really happy that you could join me for this interview as well. And so I wanted to start off talking about your childhood. And I understand you're originally from Mexico? Clark: I am. Visintainer: Where from, where in Mexico are you from? Clark: Well, I was born someplace else, but I should say that I was brought up in Mexico City. So, it's actually a big city. From the time that I was born, I was taken there. So it's not, you know, I mean it's--I didn't really change my life that much. Because actually Mexico City was a lot more advanced than where I went to live here in the United States. Because it was a city of five million. And I went to live in a town that had maybe twenty thousand? So, my dad was a college professor and he moved the whole family in the fifties. And I came along with the family. And my first experience in the United States was when I was in the eighth grade, in East Lansing, Michigan. So, it was quite a culture shock for me. Not because of Mexico to the US but because of the big city to the small town. And then we ended up living in Mississippi for most of, most of my high school years and my college years. So I ended, I started with the Midwest and then ended up in the South. And that is the deep south, Oxford, Mississippi. That's where I went to high school. And I went to college there. Visintainer: Okay. Clark: So that was a big culture shock, not because of the US thing, but because I came from the Midwest where I was getting kind of adjusted to US life in a small town to the big, to a smaller town in the south. And there was segregation at the time. So, of course I went to the white high school. Just because of the way I look. They never, they didn't think in the South, you're either black or you're white. At least at the time. They didn't go into any refinements of, you know, mestizo or mixed race or anything like that. So I ended up going to a white high school, and then I went to Ole Miss, the University of Mississippi. That's where I got my first degree. And then I ended up again in the Midwest, ‘cause I went to the University of Kansas for my graduate studies. And that's where another culture shock, because going from the deep South to the real--to the corn belt, you know? That was very conservative very, kind of a dull place to be, except that Lawrence, Kansas was a wonderful, wonderful town. And I got my degrees from the University of Kansas, both degrees, the MA and the PhD. And I met my husband there. And that was another culture shock because he's Cuban. And he was, you know, brought up very Cuban, even though he had lived in the US quite a bit. And so, we got married in 1967, so we just celebrated our fifty-sixth anniversary. Visintainer: Congratulations. Clark: Thank you. Yeah. We--our wedding date was August fifth, so we just celebrated it by doing nothing. (laughter) Visintainer: That's how we just celebrated ours as well. Clark: Oh, congratulations to you. (Visintainer laughs) Visintainer: Thank you. Clark: So anyway, it was a, it was a very pleasant time at the University of Kansas. And then my whole--my dream was always to come to California. So, when I was--I started looking for a job. I applied to a lot of places in California and I sent like five hundred letters, something like that. And then my first job, full-time faculty job was at Cal State San Bernardino. And I ended up staying there for nineteen years. So that was a whole early career, was at Cal State San Bernardino. Do you have any questions so far? Visintainer: I do. I actually wanted to circle back to Mexico. Clark: Okay. Visintainer: What neighborhood in Mexico City where you from? Clark: Colonia Roma. Visintainer: Okay. Okay. Clark: Have you seen the movie? Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. I saw Roma. And I've been there myself. It's a beautiful area. Clark: I lived there. I lived about five blocks from where that movie was shot. Visintainer: Okay. And that movie took place, when was that movie? It was the sixties, or? Clark: That was in the seventies. Visintainer: In the seventies. Clark: He (director Alfonso Cuarón) had to change a lot of things. He even had to do the (building) facades, but there are a lot of places that are the same as they were when I was a kid there in that neighborhood. And it was, it was a good place to live. My mother owned two townhouses there in Roma. So that's where I spent most of my childhood. But then she sold the houses when we moved to the US, for $5,000 each. And now, I think that would be in the millions. Visintainer: Yeah. Probably. Clark: It's a desirable neighborhood. Visintainer: Yes. Yeah. Definitely. What were--so why did your parents decide to emigrate? Clark: Well, my dad was a college professor, and college professors don't work out in Mexico very well ‘cause they have to have other careers. They don't pay that much at the university, so they have to have a second career that, like a day job, you know? And so, and my dad was German. That's a long history. I don't, I don't even want to get into that because it's really complicated and interesting. But so he, you know, he married my mother and they decided that they, he wanted to get his PhD in Texas. At the University of Texas. So he went, came to the US to get his PhD and left the family behind. But he started taking us one by one. First he took my mom, then my little brother who was very young. And the whole time we were staying with relatives, so. Anyway, so we ended up finally the whole family in the US in 1956. The whole family in Lansing, Michigan. But we came piecemeal. So it was, you know, staying with aunts and uncles. And living in different areas where I was sort of the, I wasn't really in my, with my family. So we were kind of aimless. Because, you know, since I was with so many different relatives, but my dad had a purpose. And so, he said, when he brought the whole family, he was gonna create a goal for us. And we all ended up studying, you know, higher, getting higher degrees. Having careers. And so, because of my dad. He also made my mother get a PhD. So, we all got degrees at the University of Mississippi first. Visintainer: Okay. And what were your parents' PhDs in? Clark: My mom was in Spanish, like me, and my dad was in economics. He actually turned out to be a pretty well-known professor in the, in Latin American economics. And he was very productive, being a good German. He wrote a lot of books. And he ended up at the University of West Florida. That was his last job. So at the time, professors were not used to staying in one place. They were used to going from job to job to improve their status. And so, he was an assistant professor at Michigan State, and then Mississippi hired him as a full professor. So he jumped a rank, so to speak. And then you know, I always miss Mexico. Even now I miss Mexico. I don't go back very much. But to me, that's just home, you know, or something. I never could get, could develop a love like I have in my heart for Mexico, for any other places where I've lived. Visintainer: What is— Clark: Yes? Visintainer: Oh, I'm sorry to interrupt. What is it that you, what is it that you miss or that has that, that fills that place in your heart when you think of Mexico? Clark: It's hard to describe because when I get together with relatives from down there, I'm immediately at home. You know, it's as if I had never left. And I grew up with a cousin who was my age, and I just hated to leave her so much. She, we were best friends and I always wanted to see her. And I wasn't always able to go back there. And so, you know, I really missed her so much. And just the family relations, the--also Mexico City was so urbane. I always felt like I was kind of in the sticks in the towns that we lived in, in the US. And I would go to Mexico and my cousin was all, you know, she has this hairdo, and I'd say, “What is that?” I've never seen anything like it. Because it was a big city. So you live, it was kind of like being in New York, you know, like a New Yorker living in New York. So, I miss that aspect of it. But I just, I didn't even like Mexican things, you know like Mexican, so-called Mexican food. I never really liked it that much, but as soon as I moved to the US I just, I was missing tortillas. We had to get tortillas--in Michigan, we had to get tortillas in the can. Visintainer: Okay. Clark: And there was no place to go eat anything that was typical. And in my middle school, nobody! Nobody, but nobody spoke Spanish. Not even high school Spanish or anything. So nobody tried to help me out as I was developing. So I was getting used to living there. And I remember that this, the gym class made us, they made us take a shower. And I did not wanna take my clothes off in front of people I did know. Even though they were young girls, but they were strangers. So I did not wanna take my clothes off. So I went to the teacher, tried in my best bad English, tried to explain to her that I didn't wanna take my clothes off in front of my classmates. And she said, “That's too bad. You gotta take a shower. So, you can't just be in gym and then be all sweaty and go back to class.” So I would leave my, my bra and my panties on, and then I would have to go the rest of the day with wet underwear. So, that was just a really bad year for me. (laughs) Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I told my mom, and she finally, you know, I didn't wanna tell my mom I was embarrassed. Finally, she went to talk to the teacher, but she said, “No, no, she has to adjust to the,” you know, it's that mentality that, “No, no, no, she has to adjust.” You know, “Everybody's the same here.” So I had wet underwear the whole year. And in Michigan, that's not pleasant when it's winter. Visintainer: No, that sounds like it would be tough. Clark: Anyway, so that was, and I made friends in Michigan, but I don't know, it wasn't the same. It wasn't my cousins. It wasn't my, you know, I wasn't in the same school as my brother and sister, so that was a bad year for me. And then when we moved to Mississippi everything changed. It was, because Mississippi, believe it or not, the the ethos is more like Mexico (laughs) Because of the stratification, the social stratification. That you were kind of more with middle class people or whatever. And so, I don't know. I hate to say it, because it sounds, you know, I don't wanna admit to anything like that. So anyway, but Oxford was a small town, but it was very friendly, and it was very, they were very welcoming to us. So, everything changed. And that's when I finally started to adjust to living in the US. The people were real characters. Our English teacher in the high school was married to Faulkner's, William Faulkner's best friend. So she was, she was such a character. She would say, “Don't let the lighting bug bite you because you'll never get rid of it.” (laughter) So anyway, so it was, it was a different world. And I finally got used to living there, and I started to miss Mexico a little bit less and less every year. Visintainer: You mentioned that you were learning English when you came to the US if I understood correctly. So— Clark: Yes. I knew a lot of English already, because I had English from the time I was in kindergarten until the eighth grade when I came to the US. So— Visintainer: So you were learning English and kind of in class, I assume, as well as being immersed in the English language. I was curious about your Spanish-language skills. Did you speak Spanish in the home? Clark: Of course. And I never forgot Spanish because I'm a reader, and I just always wanted to keep reading. We--my mother and I went to the library at Michigan State, and we checked out, you know, they had a big collection in Spanish of course. And so I checked out these Argentinian novels, and Colombian novels and everything. So I was always reading something that kept my skills up. I didn't do it on purpose, but I really wanted to stay, keep my Spanish so that when I went back to Mexico, people wouldn't make fun of me. Because they, you know, they said your English, your Spanish starts to get very what they call pocho. Which is, it has a lot of English influence. And I didn't wanna be called pocha. So I kept my Spanish skills as long as I could. And then I majored in French at Ole Miss. I was gonna major in math, but a woman professor who taught third semester calculus said to me, “I know why you're here. You're just looking for a husband.” And she just persecuted me in the class. So I said, “No, who needs this? I don't wanna be in this world.” So I switched to French, and I majored in French. And, and then that's another story, because when I went to--when I applied at KU for graduate school, I was supposed to go in the French department to get my PhD in French. But the department had split that year. It was a romance language department, and it split from Spanish and Portuguese into Spanish and Portuguese and French and Italian. So, they said, “Okay, you go here.” And all of a sudden you had to take all these Spanish classes. And I thought, well, I wonder why, but I'll, I'll take them. And I had taken more classes. They, I got a letter that says, you have to take more Spanish classes. And when I, when I was at Ole Miss, so I took more Spanish classes and I kept taking Spanish lit of different fields. And when I got there and I went to the advisor, he was the chair of the Spanish and Portuguese department, and he said, “You're gonna be teaching Spanish I as a TA (teacher’s assistant), and then you're gonna take these three Spanish classes.” (laughs) So I said, “Well, okay.” (laughter) I didn't, I was twenty you know, what did I know? So, I started taking Spanish classes. And it's a good thing because at the time, French was beginning to decline in demand, and I could never get used to speaking French either. I didn't like to, to say, oh. (laughs) I couldn't, you know, I just couldn't get used to the, the accent. So, I just stayed in Spanish. And that's what since you ask about my skills, they came in handy because I had read a lot of the works already as a kid, and I liked the people in the Spanish department. And that's where I stayed. Visintainer: Yeah, thank you. And I was, I was curious as to, because you went, you ended up, you know, getting your PhD in Spanish, how you kept those skills up being in an environment where outside of your home you didn't necessarily have the opportunity (Visintainer and Clark speaking over each other). Yes. Clark: I met the Cuban when I was my third year of graduate school. And he was in high school. So, his parents were my classmates. And so he was, you know my parents had a fit because he was nineteen. And when we got married, he turned twenty the next day. (laughs) And my parents thought he was gonna, he was too young. He was gonna, you know, leave me after a while. And I, but I thought, “Well, who cares? I'm gonna go for it.” And so, we spoke Spanish at home, and his parents spoke Spanish at, at home. So it was, I got into that other culture. And in fact, I got, I didn't have a Spanish accent when I was in college or with--when I was in high school. But I got, got the Spanish accent after living with Jose for all those years. Because we--and he doesn't have any accent. But anyway, so he came when he was fourteen, and so he had been in the US for five years. So anyway, that's how I ended up staying in the Spanish field. And kind of rediscovering my country through the academic degree. Because I specialize in Mexican literature. I met all these Mexican scholars. And I was in a totally different environment when I got back than I was when I left. I didn't, I only had one aunt who was kind of an academic, but everybody else, you know, they were home. They stayed at home and they didn't, typical Mexican wife role. But I did have an aunt, who had the best collection of Mexican literature that I've ever seen anywhere. And I was trying to get her to leave it to me, but it didn't work out. So. Anyway anything about graduate school, or? Visintainer: Yeah I was, well I was curious when you moved, just to circle back a little bit, when you moved to Lansing. And you moved there, and then you went down south to Mississippi, and you talked about the culture shock. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about the culture shock. What you found as you were just starting to adjust to the Midwest. And then you moved to the South, what you found was shocking and the differences in those places. Clark: Well, the school, first of all, most of the schools I went to had all girls. And of course, the school in Michigan was a mixed, you know, boys and girls. And there were things happening. This is the time in the fifties that when education in the US totally did a change, a pivot, you know. Because I read a book called The Lonely Crowd. And it explains what happened in the US in the fifties, that the school systems started to do things very differently than before. For example, instead of having a desk that flipped--that had a lid, so you could keep all your stuff hidden, and private. It started to have these chairs with a, just a paddle where you could write on, and all your stuff was in view for the rest of the world. And they started to put your stuff on the bulletin board, your work on the bulletin board. And that was very alien to me. I had gone to these schools where everything was very regimented, the nuns and the--even I went to a school that was not Catholic. And it did have boys and girls, but it was very regimented. And you had to obey the teacher. You had to, when the teacher came in the room, you stood up. And when you went--were gonna go out, you had to get in single file. And everything was very regimented. And we wore uniforms. Whereas here in the school in Michigan, no uniforms. The classrooms were all like people sitting around tables. What was that? (laughs) Like the Socratic method, all of a sudden. (laughs) And people sitting around these open tables. And so the kid--the boys would put their feet up on the table, and the teacher didn't say anything. We had a science teacher who brought apples to the class. You know, eating in class? Wow. So things like that. And then just kind of a lack of structure at the time in the, in the school when I was used to all that. But at the same time, this kind of a Nazi-- no, I take that back. The gym teacher who says, “No, you will not, you will take a shower.” She wouldn't even let me like, go early and take a quick shower by myself. You know, she didn't wanna make any accommodations. So, I couldn't understand that. I understood authority cause of the nuns, but I don't know. I just--my mom never really followed the conventions. She was always a free spirit. So, in that way, we never had all the regimented things that you find in Mexico. Like my aunt died. Her sister died very young, and she would refuse to wear black. So, all her relatives criticized her. And then all my cousins were saying, “How come you're not wearing black?” So that was something that, you know, I was used to. But in the US there were some other things that some rigidity that I couldn't understand. Anyway, I was thirteen, you know, so that's not a good age to change cultures. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I was kind of, I was a kind of, well-developed thirteen, so the boys were starting to pay attention. But the boys in Mexico were eighteen, for example. You know, people are used to difference in age. And the boys in Michigan were thirteen and they were shorter than I was. And just little boys. So that was also kind of sad because I was beginning to develop, you know, interest in the opposite sex. Plus the schools, you know, they were clannish. So of course, I was not a popular person because I didn't, I didn't speak the language. And I don't, I'm not talking about English, I'm talking about the teenage language, you know. I didn't have a group that I could hang out with. So I was kind of a nerd because I liked math. Then people didn't know where to put me cause I was too nerdish. And then at the same time, I was kind of sophisticated. I was more adult than they were. So it was a difficult time, to find a place there. Visintainer: When do you feel you found your place? Clark: Where? Visintainer: Where, yeah. Where? When? Clark: Kind of in Oxford. Because the girls were really friendly to me. Even the popular girls liked me. And they did the did the best they could to include me in all their activities and all the things that they were doing. And I found a friend there. We're still friends. We still write each other. We used to visit each other, but she was, she was a professor at USC (University of Southern California) and then she moved. She was--her father was a professor also. And this girl was, you know, she was kind of my intellectual equal in a way. She read a lot. She introduced me to a lot of English writers, cause her father was an English professor. And we used to kind of joke, with kind of sophisticated weight. I was--I really thought it was funny that I wish I had some stuff that I wrote when I was that age, because I think we were pretty witty at the time. And so that made me feel good. And she used to buy all these novels at the drugstore, and she would take off the front covers so her mother wouldn't know that they were X-rated (laughs). So, you know, I mean it was a fun time to be with somebody who was my age and was really into that stuff. And so she moved to Massachusetts, unfortunately. So that hit me in the head, because I don't fly anymore. And I don't think she's flying very much either. We're both--I'm gonna be eighty next month, and she's gonna be eighty in December, so we're getting there. So— Visintainer: But you've kept in touch. Clark: Yeah. Yeah. And that was great because she ended up at USC. She started out in Illinois, and then went to Texas, and she ended up at USC. So when she--her husband was at San Diego State, so she was living in La Jolla for a while. And we had to see each other a lot. So we still do a Zoom conversation once in a while. So that was, she contributed a lot to that. And then I have another friend that I stay in touch with who lives in Alabama. But we still stay in touch and they're Democrats (laughs). And then I had another friend who passed away two years ago. So, those three friends were great, and we were close. And so I didn't feel lonely anymore. I didn't date anybody until I was almost a freshman in college. I just wasn't attractive to guys, to the--I wasn't a southern bell. So I wasn't appealing to guys because I didn't just go and bat my eyelashes at anybody. I didn't know how to flirt at the time. Visintainer: Well and you needed you needed to find your group. Clark: Right. Visintainer: Yeah. So then you, you go to Lawrence (Kansas) after you graduated? Clark: Yes. Just, you know, my dad told me--asked me when I was a senior in high school, “Where is it that you wanna get your PhD?” (Laughs) He didn't even ask me, “Are you gonna get a PhD?” No. He says, “Where is it that you're going for your PhD?” So I, I'm one of those people who takes the first offer I get. I didn't take the first offer for marriage that I got, but I did take the first offer for graduate school. I took the first offer for the first job, for my first job. And then, the Cal State San Marcos job was kind of a first offer in the sense that it was new place. So anyway, I just I applied to places and I liked the--as I said, I was in French, so I applied at the University of Kansas because they had a good French department. So I got, it really appealed to me that, to study French at KU. And then I ended up studying Spanish. So. Visintainer: And so you came to KU and then you met Jose. And, so how did you meet Jose? Clark: Well, his parents were my classmates. Visintainer: That's right. Clark: And there was a party--this is a weird story too. There was a party, some Venezuelans, they--KU has an amazing number of programs with Latin America. I mean, just, you wouldn't believe it. And they had a program, with a Ford Foundation program to bring Venezuelan engineers to Kansas. So, my mother-in-law was the secretary to this project. And they invited her to a big party. And so her husband, who was also my classmate, and he was kind of a, had a roving eye. He had a crush on my roommate. So, he invited both of us so he could get to dance with my roommate. And then he went to Jose and said, “Hey, you know, I'm really interested in this girl. Would you mind dancing with the roommate?” (laughs) Who was me, “So that I can dance with Judy.” And so, he came and asked me to dance. And so, I thought, “Oh, how great.” Cause he was very good looking. And we just hit it off and we danced all night at that party. And at five in the morning his parents invited me to go have cognac in their--at their apartment. So, you know, we just started to see each other. But he was nineteen, and he looked like he was younger. So I thought, I'm really robbing the cradle big time, so I better stop this. So, I asked him point blank, how old are you? Because by this time, we had seen each other a couple of times, and he said, nineteen. And I thought, whew, you know, he's not underage (laughs). And also, you know, this is okay, we're having fun. No big deal. But we realized, you know, it was a lot more serious than we thought. So, we met--that was the Thanksgiving weekend of 1966. And we got married in (19)67 in August the next year. So, we didn't have a very long courtship. And what really speared that forward was that he was living with his parents in this duplex. And his grandmother was getting out of Cuba. You know, they were, they were Cuban refugees from the Castro regime. So, grandma was getting out and she had to share his bedroom, Jose's bedroom. So, I said, well, we couldn't live together. The department was very conservative, and I would've lost my assistantship if we had moved in together. It sounds hard to believe that people think in those terms now, but they were very, very conservative. So, I thought I didn't wanna jeopardize my studies. And so, we said, “Well, what do we do? We break up or we get married, you know, either one.” And so, he was just starting his freshman year anyway, so I said, “Well, I think we ought to break up because this is not--it's not viable.” I was living in this little apartment and, anyway I was making $240 a month, and I wasn't gonna marry somebody who didn't have any income. And his parents were students also. Cause when you got out of Cuba, no matter how much money you have, you have to get out with the clothes on your back. And his mother was a journalist, but she had, who came from a wealthy family, but she had to go work in a donut shop in Miami when they first came, got out of Cuba. So we didn't have any money, none of us. So I said, “Well, you know I don't know if we should get married. This is too serious. It's too soon.” And then, so then he gives me his grandmother's wedding band, and he says, “I'm serious. I really wanna marry you.” So we decided, okay, let's go ahead. And we got married and he got a job working in the language lab. And in the--at the library. (laughs) So we were living on like, with $350 a month. But we were living okay, you know? We discovered, yeah, we can make it go. And my parents came around and they really liked him, and they ended up just loving him to death, you know? So that was, that was a good thing. Even though a lot of people talked to us and said, “Don't do it. It's too soon.” Including the guy who married us was his speech professor. And he said, “Well, I'm not gonna marry you guys until I talk to you quite a bit.” So we had to go to his house many times. So he would give us--he was a Methodist minister, as well as being a professor on campus. And he talked to us a lot. And finally he says, “Yeah, I think you're gonna do okay.” And so, he married us. We had a very plain, very simple wedding in his parents' duplex. We invited friends who were also graduate students. They brought food. It was kind of a potluck. And here we are, fifty-six years later. Visintainer: It was a good start then. Clark: Yeah. That's been, to me, that's been the best part of my life is, you know, having Jose next to me for fifty-six years. Most of our lives. Anyway, so that was KU. I got my PhD in Spanish in ‘71. Like everybody else, I had to apply to a million places for a job. And I had, San Bernardino sounded really good to me because it was in California. I had my best friend, my best friend at KU was teaching there already. She had gotten her PhD at Ohio State, and she'd gotten hired at San Bernardino. We could have been done the same time, but I just, I wasn't in any hurry because Jose was not, wasn't graduating until ‘71. Oh, sorry. (laughs) Visintainer: No, you're fine. Clark: Tell me if I'm giving you too much information. Visintainer: No, no, no. It's really interesting. I'm happy you're sharing and thank you for sharing. So, Jose was graduating in 1971, so you had some time to kind of figure out your next steps. Clark: Yes. We didn't know what he was gonna do. So, he applied to graduate schools and he got accepted at UC Irvine. So we were happily planning for that. at And of course, I had to stay in San Bernardino cause I've never been a good driver. So, he was gonna drive to Irvine to go to graduate school there. But he thought the drive was a little bit too long. And we weren't used to commuting and all that California life. So he applied at the library at Cal State San Bernardino. They had a temporary job, and it was perfect. He just loved it. So, he started working there. And that was ironic because there were a lot of jobs that I didn't take because--that I didn't pursue, because they were always asking me, “What's your husband gonna do? What's he gonna work at?” And so they would turn off because he didn't, he was--didn't have a job yet. And I was also childbearing age, and a lot of people didn't wanna hire you. I won't mention a couple of universities that I got approached by. And according to my professors, I had a really good chance to get--go there. But they were worried about Jose. So ironically, he started working where I worked. And then he got another job since that was only, that was temporary. The funds for that dried up. And so, the University of Redlands hired him. The library there. And he loved it. But I said, “No, you better get your degree because you can't be, just be a clerk all the time.” So he started going to USC and very slowly, and finally I said, “No, you just quit whatever you're doing and finish your degree, because that's the only way you're gonna have a career out of being a librarian.” And at sure enough, it worked out so well because he's loved that career. And it's kept us on an even keel, always. Because my career sometimes was high pressure ‘cause I did some administrative work along the way. And so he, it was always good to have him in this job that he loved. And that wasn't super high pressure until he got in the county. And then that turned out to be very high pressure because he was--he became a supervisor. And that's, you know, anytime you go into administration, that's it for you because you start leaving the job that you love and doing a job that pays better, but gives you a little more prestige. But-- (laughs). Visintainer: Yep. It's very true. Well, as at a librarian, I'm very happy that Jose was able to find his avocation in our vocation. Clark: I know. And it's, you know, librarian is such an interesting, has such an interesting opportunity to do all kinds of different things. So that he's found that, and he's always worked with women really well, you know, because so many women are in the library. And I work with men really well. So, we compliment each other because we're not jealous people who think, “Oh, you're gonna be with this person.” You know, I just always hung out with guys in my profession. And he's always gotten along with women and met--made really good friends in both areas. Visintainer: Yeah. And to circle back a little bit to coming to CSU San Bernardino, you mentioned at that you had wanted to go to California, and I was curious as to what was the draw for California as opposed to other parts of the United States? Clark: Well, California has always had really good press, maybe until now that the states are so divided. But it always, it was always like paradise, if you wanna go to paradise in the US, go to California. And they show you all these orange groves and this beautiful weather and the ocean. And it was just, it just has a good ethos, you know? So I always really wanted to go to California. My parents ended up in Florida. I never had any desire to go to Florida, and for any, every reason in the world. But somehow California just seemed like this paradise. And also, you know, LA. Wow. San Francisco. (laughs) My dad lived in San Francisco many years, and he was always talking about San at Francisco being such a great place. And then LA with Hollywood and, you know, just sounded like--plus the proximity to Mexico. You know, I always kept thinking, “Well, if I'm in California, I can always cross the border.” You know, I always felt kind of uneasy when I felt--when I lived really far from the border. Which is ironic because now I never get down there (laughs) you know, just. But I did find some relatives who live in Tijuana, so that's been great. You know, they come to visit. And, it's really good to keep track of my family that way. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: I found them on Facebook of all places (laughs). Visintainer: So Facebook has some, has some good things about it. Clark: Yeah. (laughs) Visintainer: You can connect people. So you came to, so what was the decision to leave CSU San Bernardino at and come to San Marcos? Clark: Well, when I was about three or four years before I left there, I discovered that I'd like to be an administrator. Because the Dean of Humanities left, and he asked me if I would be his replacement. So even though it was a really hard job, because he didn't look after any budgets. I mean, he was just so, he was a wild, loose, kind of a loose cannon. And I had to go, and as one colleague told me, I had to go shovel a lot of cages at the zoo when I took over that job. But I loved that job. So, it was an interim job. I had it for two years, and then I, when I applied for the permanent job, I didn't get it. at So, I thought, “Well I, but I wanna do this.” So I started applying different places for dean's jobs. And I got, I did pretty well in the market, but it just wasn't appealing to me to go for several reasons. I had been in San Bernardino for nineteen years. I was used to the good weather. And so this, the Cal State San Marcos thing came up and he said, “You know, you start the, a program from scratch. Start the department from scratch.” And so I talked to people about it, and they, I said, “What do you do?” And says, “Oh, you can hire the kind of people that you want. You can go after the kind of faculty that you want. You can create the kind of curriculum that you want that you find is good. You can do a lot of stuff. It's, it's a huge opportunity.” So, I applied at for it, and sure enough, I got the job. So it was--I moved kind of laterally because I had tenure there. I was a full professor. But I had no idea of all the horrendous amount of work that you have to do when you start a program. And, I probably wouldn't do it again. And my dad had done that in Florida, and he said, “Oh, be careful, because it's so much work.” And I just, you know, I just went in there thinking, “Well, how bad can it be?” And it was pretty bad (laughs) because I had to work year-round. And it was one thing after the other. I'll give you an example. Marion Ried (Dean of the University Library) came up to at me and she was in charge of some funds that were assigned to the university. I don't know why they put her in charge of that. But anyway, she says, “You know, there's $150,000 earmarked for a language lab, and if you don't spend it,” this is in April when she talked to me, “If you don't spend it by the end of June, Bill Stacy's gonna take it.” He was the (university) president. “He's gonna just take it and spend it on something else because it’s gonna become available to the whole campus.” And I said, “We can't have a language department without a language lab. No way.” So, I had to go buy a language lab, and I had from April to end of June to do that. Well, how do you do that? Visintainer: Yeah, where did you begin? Clark: Yeah. I was lucky enough that the San Bernardino campus had redone its language lab, and they had formed a committee and they had, you know, interviewed different lab companies. And they had decided what kind of lab they wanted. And they already had the infrastructure though. And I had to start from zero. So I went to talk to the guy who ran that lab. Fortunately, he was somebody that I had supervised, and he just loved me. So he gave me all kinds of information and all kinds of help about what some of the pitfalls would be. And I picked that lab that, it was a Norwegian company, something like that. Norwegian, I think Norwegian. And I had to come up with a sole-source justification in just a little bit of time, because there was another company that was saying, “Why didn't you pick us? Why didn't you buy our lab?” And then I was lucky because I got two faculty who came, and they were very versed on the--they came from UC Irvine, and they had learned how the lab can be used as a teaching tool. And it was, you know, they had done workshops and they had done all kinds of stuff. And that's one of the reasons that I picked them to come be our next faculty. Because they had learned so much about what a language lab does other than just be an aide. Electronic aid, you know, technology aid. And it was a married couple. They both came together. And so she was the, she was doing all the all the software kind of stuff, and he was doing all the hardware kind of stuff. So, I was lucky that way that I--but I also see that as part of a, you know, being hired with experience. Because if I had been hired out of graduate school, I wouldn't have been able to do anything like that. And so, because I came with having chaired the department, having been a dean, and when you're Dean of Humanities, you deal with a lot of equipment. Because I had the arts under my supervision. And I had to deal with lots of interesting types of equipment. So it worked out. But it was a very tough two years. I was in, at one point, I was in like thirty-five hiring committees. Visintainer: Wow! Clark: And one of those committees was for literature, the literature department, which was called English at the time. We had eight hundred applicants for one position. Visintainer: Wow. Clark: So, you had to learn how to, you know, how to process stuff very quickly. And so, and also I had learned how to deal with administrators, higher administrators, to negotiate for things. So I was a little bit more informed as to how to deal with things. Because a lot of the faculty don't, they don't deal with anybody. They just go on, they do their great teaching and they do their research, but they don't they're not used to wheeling and dealing, for example. And so I learned very quickly that the first best, the people who got the best things, were wheelers and dealers in the faculty. I learned from some of my colleagues very well because you don't just get things by saying, “Yes, I accept the job. I'll be there this day. When do I start working?” You have to say, you know, “What, how much office space am I gonna get (laughs)? How much--what is gonna be my budget for traveling and for hiring? And how many faculty am I gonna have in five years? When you had to start that kind of thing. And in a way, I was not that good when I first came, but I learned very quickly. Very, very quickly you learned that. So that's what brought me to San Marcos wasn't the weather like a lot of people (laughs). It was the opportunity of starting a new department. And that was really interesting. But ironically, my ideal colleague--I was able to hire this guy. He was just wonderful. But he hated California. He couldn't, he couldn't live away from his mom. And so he left after two years. But I did get some of the other faculty that I think are ideal and wonderful. They're still here. Visintainer: That's good. So what was your vision when you started the department? Clark: Well, I wanted to, I wanted to have a major that would give the students the opportunity to go in different directions and to get lots of skills without having to, you know, because a lot of the majors are very academic. And I love the--I love that, but it doesn't give them many tools like to be teachers or to be like, go to work in business. And so I wanted to major that would be, that would help students be very versatile. And they could go in lots of different fields. And I think I accomplished that. Our major was, there were only two of us working on the major at the beginning, and it got accepted by the chancellor's office on the first meeting, you know. Because we came up with this modular plan, and also just wanted to hire a lot of faculty that I would love to work with. That was my vision as the harmonious department, because if people don't get along--and I came from a lot of programs where people didn't get along at all. Visintainer: That's really interesting. Cause yeah., cause there's a lot of at times disharmony in academia. Clark: Oh yeah! Visintainer: And in some ways, you know, for a good reason because there's a lot of debate and thought that has to go into things. But— Clark: I mean, a department is made up of a whole bunch of prima donnas. Visintainer: Yeah. (laughs) So how did you go about building harmony in a department, in your department? Clark: I don't know. I can't tell you exactly. You just have a feel for people. And I was, I just use my instincts a lot. And so I try to get people to apply that I knew were very easy to work with, that love to work with you, that no matter what you ask of them, they would do it. But the guy who came with me, the first guy, we went too far because he never said no to anybody. And at some point he burned out. But he was good to work with. I mean, he was good to be here the first two years. Unfortunately, he passed away not too long ago. But, anyway he--so I just, I just had a feeling that people who were my friends, besides being my colleagues. And I knew a lot of people, you know. I had--they applied a lot of people from different areas applied here because I went, I worked a long time for grading the Advanced Placement (AP) exam. So, I had a huge network because those, you meet people every year, and you get to know each other. And so that's what it was, just, you know--and then what my big goal was always to help people thrive. And not put any obstacles in their development. And one of my professors at KU said, because I, my dissertation was kind of weird. And then I said, “You know, I'm surprised that, that you approved it, because I know that it is very unconventional approach to literature.” And he said, “Look, to me, your dissertation is your beginning work. If I'm gonna consider that your master work, then you're in trouble. Because this is what's gonna kick you into the field and into the academic world.” And I did have a professor who didn't wanna approve it, and these guys kind of rallied. And they said, “We couldn't, you couldn't take it out of the building to read it.” And so, he refused to go to read it in the building. Visintainer: What, so what--what was weird about your dissertation? Clark: Well, it was a very like a very close reading of some works. Very, very close. I was using a method that was kind of controversial at the time. It was called the--what is it called? My head is not working anymore. But anyway, you, if you read a work very closely, you analyze, you know like even stylistic patterns in something. You can kind of make conclusions that are much broader about the work then you can if you approach it from the outside and just look at the--look at it from a bird's eye view. Like if you read something and you say, the plot is this and the blah, blah, blah. But if you’re really close, read closely and about all the language used in it and everything. And some people at the time didn't like that method. It was an, it was a method followed by some English writers, American writers. It was an American thing. But I applied it to Mexican literature. So, a lot of people thought that was, it was stupid that it didn't lead you anywhere. And this writer that I went--that I wrote on, had been written on by a lot of people. And so this guy who didn't wanna pass me said, “Where's the, where's the biography of this writer? Where's the list of the his works? You don't learn anything about the guy.” I said, “No, no, no. I don't wanna learn about the guy. I wanna learn about the worlds he's creating in his works. You know, what kind of world is he creating with the use of this language?” And so it was--you know, some people thought it was too weird or maybe it didn't go far enough out. You know, it was not a universal thing. But it was, I was kind of following a method by an anthropologist (Claude) Lévi-Strauss, you know. Have you heard of Lévi-Strauss? Visintainer: I have not. Clark: Anyway, he studied people by patterns of--I'm losing my train of thought here. He studied people by the patterns in their culture, not coming from you know, the outside and saying, “Oh, they do this, they eat at this time.” But it's following very, very specific things that they did. Anyway. So it worked for me and, and I learned a lot about analyzing literature. And so that helped me in my teaching. So, whereas this guy, the professor who didn't wanna pass me, pass my dissertation. Well he--I had a course from him and he ordered ten books. It was gonna, it was Romanticism in Spain, okay. Romanticism in literature in Spain. And he started with the eighteenth century before Romanticism. And he gave us so much stuff about the eighteenth century, he never got to Romanticism. So I returned all the books without reading them because he never got to the subject. And so that's, I wanted to avoid that at all costs. I said, “I wanna read the works, I wanna see what the work is itself, and I don't care if the author was, you know, if he was gay, if he was an idiot, I don't care. I wanna see what he left behind.” So it was very close text reading, textual reading. And some people didn't appreciate that. So. But it served me well. Lemme tell you, I use that method throughout my career and it really helped. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I'm still reading like that. I don't read as much anymore, but I'm still kind of, “Oh look, this word he uses here.” Anyway, any more questions? Visintainer: Yeah. Could we circle back to the kind of the founding of the department? Clark: Yes. Visintainer: And I was just curious, what do you think was your, like your biggest challenge in those early years in founding the department, and coming on board at CSUSM? Clark: Oh, I don't wanna say. Visintainer: (Laughs) Well, you don't have, you don't have to answer if you don't want to. Clark: No, no. Because, because this campus developed very--I came from a very organized campus. And most people didn’t wanna realize that this was a CSU campus. They thought they were gonna create something from scratch that was brand new. And there are all these people who came from these different backgrounds, like faculty who came from liberal stu--liberal arts colleges, from big research universities. And I said, “This is a Cal State, people. We, that doesn't mean we have to look down on anybody, but it's, we have to be real about who the students are gonna be, and then what they need to learn.” So, ‘cause I've always been kind of an elitist in my, in my own mind, but not when it comes to educating students. I think, you know, you really need to consider the fact that people come from backgrounds that maybe aren't, they're not up to here academically, but they're very bright people. So just look at them, look at their interests, look at their--what they wanna learn. And I always love the Cal States because people pay for their own education. People pay for their, you know, they’re often the first person in their family to go to college. They work forty hours a week to go to college. They have children, they have other interests. They have jobs, they have parents. If you come from a Latino family, you know, you have to take care of your parents. They have husbands who don't want them to study. There's machismo there. You know, a big, big obstacle for Latina women. Anyway, just look at the students that we get, and don't look down on them. Look at what the possibilities are with these people because they're, they wanna learn. They're here because they want to be, not because, you know like when my last class at KU was on Friday, it would meet Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays at four o'clock in the afternoon. And sometimes on a Friday, I wouldn't have anybody showing up. Even though they knew that it counted, that I took off for absences. They just didn't care, you know, because they were gonna go into daddy's business, or they were gonna go into their uncle’s (business), you know, these people who they just weren't interested. And so, I said, that's what I love about the Cal State, is it has such a mission of, like now it's right in line with us because of the upward mobility. Because I was lucky that I didn't have to think about that, ‘cause I had parents who were educated. I always had books in my house. I always had. But these people who are, they've never seen a book in their house. They don't even get a magazine. And all of a sudden they have to, they have all these things thrown at them, but they wanna learn. So, I always had a lot of respect for the Cal State system for that reason. And a lot of my colleagues just, it makes me sad that they think the students are not up to par, blah, blah, blah. But it's, I've always loved the state universities because they want to educate the masses. And I love, I love for the masses to learn! And I like to be in the trenches. So that was why I didn't wanna leave the system. At the same time, you know, I yearned for these people who, like my friend, the USC friend, she’s taught--she's had years when she taught five or six student graduate students. And that's her whole teaching load. Where my advisor who had a chair at KU and he could just go. He went through South America traveling one year and left us in his house, to house sit for them. And, just visiting different universities and different libraries and doing research all over the place for his book. And he didn't have to teach a single class in two years. So I yearn for that, but at the same time, I like the idea of seeing people. And I still have people who, you know, look me up. Visintainer: That's impact. Clark: My students have retired already. Some of my students, my first students from San Bernardino. Yeah this one woman, she tracked me down here, and every year she and her husband come to visit us for when they come on vacation. And she's a retired teacher already. So it's, you know, it's very sad how some people don't care. Once the students leave, that's it. Visintainer: Yeah. I think there's definitely an ethos that comes from--that comes from being at a teaching university and embracing it and— Clark: Right. Visintainer: Great things that it can do for social mobility and upward mobility. And I appreciated you mentioning and talking about our students. And that kind of had me spur a question that I wanted to ask you. And was, what do you think was the big takeaway that you've learned from our students over the years? Clark: That they want, they want to learn and that they want to prosper. And very often their circumstances do not allow them to prosper, and do not allow them to learn. Many, many people I had to--I had a husband one time coming from a student who was in a couple of my classes, and he said, “I wanna come and sit in your classes cause I wanna watch my wife and make sure she doesn't talk to any guys.” I said, “No, you're not welcome there, because you're not a student and you're there for the wrong reasons.” So, I was worried that she was gonna get the brunt of that, but she eventually left that guy. But he would sabotage her learning. And I think, you know, and she kept going. She kept going. And I had another one here on this campus who, she was regularly beaten by her husband because she wasn't--she didn't have the food cooked when she, you know, she was in class and she didn't have the meal prepared. And so she's--but she went ahead and got her master's degree somehow. And I think the students are very resilient and they work very hard to make it. They don't, of course there are a lot of deadbeats too, but that doesn't--they're everywhere. But the majority of the students, I mean, I ask in class, I never had to work as a waitress or anything like that, you know. And I asked in my class one time, “What, how many of you're working?” And I would say, I would calculate like eighty percent raised their hands. And I said, “How many of you work more than twenty hours a week?” And most of them raise their hands again. Whereas, you know, I got to work in the language lab, I got--but that was for my extras. You know, my dad said, “If you want this and that, if you wanna buy records or if you wanna buy this.” But we didn't have to go to work. And we had a home that supported doing homework. And my mom wasn't around completely. But anyway. It was good. I had a good upbringing in that sense, and I wanted the students to get help that way. So I did a few things that weren't, didn't mean very much but for example, when I went to Mexico City you can buy books. Like you can buy literature in the newsstands for like fifty cents a book or something. So, I would buy if I knew I was gonna use the book in my class, if you order it from, well now Amazon, but if you order it from a bookstore, they'd have to pay like ten dollars for that book. And I would buy all these books for fifty cents and then bring them back and say, “If you can't afford the books, come and see me.” So, they would come, sometimes very ashamed. But I said, “Don't be, don't be embarrassed. Just, you know, just come and see me.” And I’d say, “Okay, you can use this book. Use it in the class. If you really like it and you wanna keep it for your library, you can keep it. If you don't wanna keep it, just give it back to me.” And they would always keep it, because they were building a library. That was so cool. And then all my books, when my mother died, all her books came to me. And there were duplicates of a lot of stuff I had. So I took them to the office and I said to the graduate students, “Take anything you want.” And now we're, fortunately we get to leave things to the campus. We're fortunate that we're--we decided to leave our estate to the campus. Because we want to, we want students to prosper in any way they can. And sometimes it's just a question of a thousand dollars that's gonna put them over the edge. I wish we had millions, but we don't. So. Visintainer: Well that's, that's wonderful to be able to leave something to foster student success in the future. Clark: Yeah. Because I have a family, but they can look after themselves, they've had good opportunities. And, we don't have kids. So we're not responsible for anybody in particular. So, I don't wanna make, I don't wanna tire you because I've been talking so much about myself (laughs). Visintainer: No, no, you're fine. Well, we can, we can certainly look towards wrapping things up. I've enjoyed talking with you. I did wanna--I did want to ask you kind of a wrap up question. Is that, is there anything that you wish I would've asked you that I didn't? Clark: Not really. I think, I can just go ahead and talk forever about all this. It's an eighty-year-old life, so eighty years of being on this earth, that's a long time. And so there’s things that I don't remember at all. And the things that I remember so vividly, and when I went to see Roma (2018 film), I just cried throughout the whole movie. Bought it on Netflix, but I just--I cried and cried, and cried the whole movie. Because he captures that neighborhood so well. And he, there's a documentary that where he explains how he captured that neighborhood. And he was really meticulous about every single thing, like those little soldiers at parade every morning. I mean, there were details like that, that I've never seen in a movie before. And also because Mexico City always looks like a, this gray place with dirt, dirt streets and everything. And here's this guy who is just--captures the neighborhood that I grew up in. I mean, what are the chances? Because most people show you the tourist view of Mexico City. And so that's what, that's what I miss. It's like the daily noises, and the daily routines, and the kind of house that it is and the maid. Very sad because we did have a couple of maids, like the--like this girl, they would come and knock on your door and say they were there from Oaxaca and did you have any, did you have any work for them? And my mother took, did take a couple of people like that. We didn't have any money at the time, but anyway, she did take a couple of these girls. And they didn't even speak Spanish, these poor girls. So that just--that really got me, that movie. And so I always tell people, if you wanna get to know me, watch that movie. But I don't, I'm not the maid. I'm the, I'm the person from the señora, you know? Because the grandma didn't even know her name. And then I kept thinking, I didn't know any of these girl's names. I didn't know where they came from. And when she has a baby, and they take her to the hospital, says, “What's her name?” And she doesn't even know her name. Because there's, it's another world that I never got to know. And I used to think, “Oh, Oaxaca, that has to be the scum of the earth.” And, and I fell in love with Oaxaca the first time I went there. It kind of shows you that you don't, you never appreciate your own world until you're out of it. Visintainer: Yeah I, you know, as somebody who did not grow up in Roma but I saw the movie, I thought it was an amazing, just an amazing creation of space. And I didn't know if it was you know, how particularly accurate it was or not. So, it's nice to hear that it really spoke to you on an emotional and memory level. Clark: Yeah. There, this little scene, there's a scene when the guy leaves her (Cleodegaria "Cleo" Gutiérrez, main character of Roma), she says she's pregnant and the guy leaves her, and she's sitting on the steps of this movie theater. And there are all these noises because people go outside of the movie theater, they're selling a lot of stuff. Little toys and everything. And she's just surrounded by all these noises and she's just sitting there in her loneliness, you know? And here's the interesting cultural thing is that nobody goes to the movies on Sundays, except the maids and their boyfriends and, you know, the domestic help. That's when they go to the movies, and they go see Mexican movies. The middle class goes to see the American movies first run, you know. And they go during the week or on the week--on Saturday, but not on Sunday afternoon, belongs to the servants. So it's an upstairs/downstairs world that most people don't realize. And, so it's kind of hard to also to explain that to people that, you may not have anything in common who is from Mexico. There are people from Mexico that I have absolutely nothing in common with. Cause they were brought up--we had a cleaning lady, and she would not, she invited us to her house on her birthday. She would not sit down with us to eat, even though it was her birthday. And I knew. I understood it. And I, we didn't insist on anything, because she would not sit down with us to eat. So that's--it's a different world that is very hard to explain to people. And, so that's another challenge for me that I live in two worlds in my head. I've got one foot here and one foot there and they never come together. Visintainer: And I think that that's probably an experience for folks that move from country to country or even within countries. Clark: Exiles. Yeah. People who have grown up somewhere else. And, who was I talking to about that the other day? It was very interesting because we were saying because I--oh, I have a lot of, most of my friends are really from someplace else (laughs). Even though, not on purpose, they're faculty on campus. But, I was looking at my, one of my Zumba classes. There was nobody born in the US in that Zumba class. I don't know. I kept seeing, maybe there was one person. But there was a woman from Colombia, there was a woman from Japan, another one from Puerto Rico. Well, Puerto Rico's US, but they have another culture. And so it was just so strange that we're exiles and we do have a common denominator, but that never reaches you the most in the deepest way. You always have, you always have this farness. Visintainer: And I, yes. I wanted to share that I lived in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas- Clark: Oh, you did? Visintainer: And, yeah. And when I was there, you know, I had somebody tell me what they thought of the Valley, and I thought it was really interesting in that that he said, “It's a liminal place. It's a place that's not quite Texas, it's not quite Mexico.” It exists in its own way and with its own rules and its own identity. And that causes, in some ways, for folks that live in the Rio Grande Valley, that sense of displacement when they’re in other places because they don't feel quite--and I'm speaking in generalities but, you know, there's a feeling of not quite being Texas, not quite being the US, not quite being Mexico all wrapped into its own place and culture. That was really interesting. And, and I really— Clark: Yeah, I really wanna visit with you sometime and hear more about you, so. Visintainer: Yeah. Well, we can get together and chat, but this is not about me, and I just went on a tangent. I apologize. (laughs) Clark: I know, I know. No. No, but it's good. It's good. So well, thank you for the interview and I hope I didn't leave anything major out. But if I did, give me a call or send me an email because, you know how I'm always willing to talk about myself. (laughs) Visintainer: Sure, sure. Well I really appreciate you chatting with me today, Stella. And I'm gonna pause recording and then, and then we can wrap up with anything else. Clark: Okay. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with CSUSM. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09.xml ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clark, Stella. Interview August 9, 2023. Description An account of the resource Dr. Stella Clark grew up in Colonia Roma, Mexico City, and moved to the U.S. in her early childhood. She grew up in a family who valued education; both her parents received a PhD and she was expected to get one as well. Clark received her bachelor's degree in French and her master's and PhD degrees in Spanish. She began her professional career at California State University, San Bernardino and eventually applied to California State University San Marcos, where she founded the Modern Languages Department and created the university's language lab. In her interview, Clark discusses how she made an impact not only on her students learning but life as well by encouraging all to pursue their academic dreams, and on the struggles that working students and women students face in getting an education. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-46 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Bernadino California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Modern Language Studies Department Education, Higher Immigrants -- United States Kansas University Mexican Americans -- California -- San Diego County Mexican Americans -- Education (Higher) Mexicans -- United States Roma (Motion picture : 2018) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-08-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stella Clark Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colonia Roma (Mexico City, Mexico) East Lansing (Mich.) Lawrence (Kan.) Oxford (Miss.) San Bernadino (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Stella Clark CSUSM history Immigrant experience Latine experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6ff9cd68c278df4403b4ebdf2c7d2a87.pdf 92b750fac8d50ff76fff1e7642bb1fb5 PDF Text Text STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: All right. Thank you, Stella. This is Sean Visintainer, head of Special Collections at California State University San Marcos. Today I'm interviewing Dr. Stella Clark for our University Archives oral history collection. The date is August 9th, 2023, and this recording is happening on Zoom. Dr. Clark, thank you so much for interviewing with us today. Clark: I'm happy to be here answering your questions and having a chat with you. Visintainer: Yes. So we're really happy that you could join me for this interview as well. And so I wanted to start off talking about your childhood. And I understand you're originally from Mexico? Clark: I am. Visintainer: Where from, where in Mexico are you from? Clark: Well, I was born someplace else, but I should say that I was brought up in Mexico City. So, it's actually a big city. From the time that I was born, I was taken there. So it's not, you know, I mean it's--I didn't really change my life that much. Because actually Mexico City was a lot more advanced than where I went to live here in the United States. Because it was a city of five million. And I went to live in a town that had maybe twenty thousand? So, my dad was a college professor and he moved the whole family in the fifties. And I came along with the family. And my first experience in the United States was when I was in the eighth grade, in East Lansing, Michigan. So, it was quite a culture shock for me. Not because of Mexico to the US but because of the big city to the small town. And then we ended up living in Mississippi for most of, most of my high school years and my college years. So I ended, I started with the Midwest and then ended up in the South. And that is the deep south, Oxford, Mississippi. That's where I went to high school. And I went to college there. Visintainer: Okay. Clark: So that was a big culture shock, not because of the US thing, but because I came from the Midwest where I was getting kind of adjusted to US life in a small town to the big, to a smaller town in the south. And there was segregation at the time. So, of course I went to the white high school. Just because of the way I look. They never, they didn't think in the South, you're either black or you're white. At least at the time. They didn't go into any refinements of, you know, mestizo or mixed race or anything like that. So I ended up going to a white high school, and then I went to Ole Miss, the University of Mississippi. That's where I got my first degree. And then I ended up again in the Midwest, ‘cause I went to the University of Kansas for my graduate studies. And that's where another culture shock, because going from the deep South to the real--to the corn belt, you know? That was very conservative very, kind of a dull place to be, except that Lawrence, Kansas was a wonderful, wonderful town. And I got my degrees from the University of Kansas, both degrees, the MA and the PhD. And I met my husband there. And that was another culture shock because he's Cuban. And he was, you know, brought up very Cuban, even though he had lived in the US quite a bit. And so, we got married in 1967, so we just celebrated our fifty-sixth anniversary. Visintainer: Congratulations. Clark: Thank you. Yeah. We--our wedding date was August fifth, so we just celebrated it by doing nothing. (laughter) Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: That's how we just celebrated ours as well. Clark: Oh, congratulations to you. (Visintainer laughs) Visintainer: Thank you. Clark: So anyway, it was a, it was a very pleasant time at the University of Kansas. And then my whole-my dream was always to come to California. So, when I was--I started looking for a job. I applied to a lot of places in California and I sent like five hundred letters, something like that. And then my first job, fulltime faculty job was at Cal State San Bernardino. And I ended up staying there for nineteen years. So that was a whole early career, was at Cal State San Bernardino. Do you have any questions so far? Visintainer: I do. I actually wanted to circle back to Mexico. Clark: Okay. Visintainer: What neighborhood in Mexico City where you from? Clark: Colonia Roma. Visintainer: Okay. Okay. Clark: Have you seen the movie? Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. I saw Roma. And I've been there myself. It's a beautiful area. Clark: I lived there. I lived about five blocks from where that movie was shot. Visintainer: Okay. And that movie took place, when was that movie? It was the sixties, or? Clark: That was in the seventies. Visintainer: In the seventies. Clark: He (director Alfonso Cuarón) had to change a lot of things. He even had to do the (building) facades, but there are a lot of places that are the same as they were when I was a kid there in that neighborhood. And it was, it was a good place to live. My mother owned two townhouses there in Roma. So that's where I spent most of my childhood. But then she sold the houses when we moved to the US, for $5,000 each. And now, I think that would be in the millions. Visintainer: Yeah. Probably. Clark: It's a desirable neighborhood. Visintainer: Yes. Yeah. Definitely. What were--so why did your parents decide to emigrate? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Clark: Well, my dad was a college professor, and college professors don't work out in Mexico very well ‘cause they have to have other careers. They don't pay that much at the university, so they have to have a second career that, like a day job, you know? And so, and my dad was German. That's a long history. I don't, I don't even want to get into that because it's really complicated and interesting. But so he, you know, he married my mother and they decided that they, he wanted to get his PhD in Texas. At the University of Texas. So he went, came to the US to get his PhD and left the family behind. But he started taking us one by one. First he took my mom, then my little brother who was very young. And the whole time we were staying with relatives, so. Anyway, so we ended up finally the whole family in the US in 1956. The whole family in Lansing, Michigan. But we came piecemeal. So it was, you know, staying with aunts and uncles. And living in different areas where I was sort of the, I wasn't really in my, with my family. So we were kind of aimless. Because, you know, since I was with so many different relatives, but my dad had a purpose. And so, he said, when he brought the whole family, he was gonna create a goal for us. And we all ended up studying, you know, higher, getting higher degrees. Having careers. And so, because of my dad. He also made my mother get a PhD. So, we all got degrees at the University of Mississippi first. Visintainer: Okay. And what were your parents' PhDs in? Clark: My mom was in Spanish, like me, and my dad was in economics. He actually turned out to be a pretty well-known professor in the, in Latin American economics. And he was very productive, being a good German. He wrote a lot of books. And he ended up at the University of West Florida. That was his last job. So at the time, professors were not used to staying in one place. They were used to going from job to job to improve their status. And so, he was an assistant professor at Michigan State, and then Mississippi hired him as a full professor. So he jumped a rank, so to speak. And then you know, I always miss Mexico. Even now I miss Mexico. I don't go back very much. But to me, that's just home, you know, or something. I never could get, could develop a love like I have in my heart for Mexico, for any other places where I've lived. Visintainer: What is-Clark: Yes? Visintainer: Oh, I'm sorry to interrupt. What is it that you, what is it that you miss or that has that, that fills that place in your heart when you think of Mexico? Clark: It's hard to describe because when I get together with relatives from down there, I'm immediately at home. You know, it's as if I had never left. And I grew up with a cousin who was my age, and I just hated to leave her so much. She, we were best friends and I always wanted to see her. And I wasn't always able to go back there. And so, you know, I really missed her so much. And just the family relations, the--also Mexico City was so urbane. I always felt like I was kind of in the sticks in the towns that we lived in, in the US. And I would go to Mexico and my cousin was all, you know, she has this hairdo, and I'd say, “What is that?” I've never seen anything like it. Because it was a big city. So you live, it was kind of like being in New York, you know, like a New Yorker living in New York. So, I miss that aspect of it. But I just, I didn't even like Mexican things, you know like Mexican, so-called Mexican food. I never really liked it that much, but as soon as I moved to the US I just, I was missing tortillas. We had to get tortillas--in Michigan, we had to get tortillas in the can. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 3 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: Okay. Clark: And there was no place to go eat anything that was typical. And in my middle school, nobody! Nobody, but nobody spoke Spanish. Not even high school Spanish or anything. So nobody tried to help me out as I was developing. So I was getting used to living there. And I remember that this, the gym class made us, they made us take a shower. And I did not wanna take my clothes off in front of people I did know. Even though they were young girls, but they were strangers. So I did not wanna take my clothes off. So I went to the teacher, tried in my best bad English, tried to explain to her that I didn't wanna take my clothes off in front of my classmates. And she said, “That's too bad. You gotta take a shower. So, you can't just be in gym and then be all sweaty and go back to class.” So I would leave my, my bra and my panties on, and then I would have to go the rest of the day with wet underwear. So, that was just a really bad year for me. (laughs) Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I told my mom, and she finally, you know, I didn't wanna tell my mom I was embarrassed. Finally, she went to talk to the teacher, but she said, “No, no, she has to adjust to the,” you know, it's that mentality that, “No, no, no, she has to adjust.” You know, “Everybody's the same here.” So I had wet underwear the whole year. And in Michigan, that's not pleasant when it's winter. Visintainer: No, that sounds like it would be tough. Clark: Anyway, so that was, and I made friends in Michigan, but I don't know, it wasn't the same. It wasn't my cousins. It wasn't my, you know, I wasn't in the same school as my brother and sister, so that was a bad year for me. And then when we moved to Mississippi everything changed. It was, because Mississippi, believe it or not, the the ethos is more like Mexico (laughs) Because of the stratification, the social stratification. That you were kind of more with middle class people or whatever. And so, I don't know. I hate to say it, because it sounds, you know, I don't wanna admit to anything like that. So anyway, but Oxford was a small town, but it was very friendly, and it was very, they were very welcoming to us. So, everything changed. And that's when I finally started to adjust to living in the US. The people were real characters. Our English teacher in the high school was married to Faulkner's, William Faulkner's best friend. So she was, she was such a character. She would say, “Don't let the lighting bug bite you because you'll never get rid of it.” (laughter) So anyway, so it was, it was a different world. And I finally got used to living there, and I started to miss Mexico a little bit less and less every year. Visintainer: You mentioned that you were learning English when you came to the US if I understood correctly. So-Clark: Yes. I knew a lot of English already, because I had English from the time I was in kindergarten until the eighth grade when I came to the US. So-Visintainer: So you were learning English and kind of in class, I assume, as well as being immersed in the English language. I was curious about your Spanish-language skills. Did you speak Spanish in the home? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 4 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Clark: Of course. And I never forgot Spanish because I'm a reader, and I just always wanted to keep reading. We--my mother and I went to the library at Michigan State, and we checked out, you know, they had a big collection in Spanish of course. And so I checked out these Argentinian novels, and Colombian novels and everything. So I was always reading something that kept my skills up. I didn't do it on purpose, but I really wanted to stay, keep my Spanish so that when I went back to Mexico, people wouldn't make fun of me. Because they, you know, they said your English, your Spanish starts to get very what they call pocho. Which is, it has a lot of English influence. And I didn't wanna be called pocha. So I kept my Spanish skills as long as I could. And then I majored in French at Ole Miss. I was gonna major in math, but a woman professor who taught third semester calculus said to me, “I know why you're here. You're just looking for a husband.” And she just persecuted me in the class. So I said, “No, who needs this? I don't wanna be in this world.” So I switched to French, and I majored in French. And, and then that's another story, because when I went to--when I applied at KU for graduate school, I was supposed to go in the French department to get my PhD in French. But the department had split that year. It was a romance language department, and it split from Spanish and Portuguese into Spanish and Portuguese and French and Italian. So, they said, “Okay, you go here.” And all of a sudden you had to take all these Spanish classes. And I thought, well, I wonder why, but I'll, I'll take them. And I had taken more classes. They, I got a letter that says, you have to take more Spanish classes. And when I, when I was at Ole Miss, so I took more Spanish classes and I kept taking Spanish lit(erature) of different fields. And when I got there and I went to the advisor, he was the chair of the Spanish and Portuguese department, and he said, “You're gonna be teaching Spanish I as a TA (teacher’s assistant), and then you're gonna take these three Spanish classes.” (laughs) So I said, “Well, okay.” (laughter) I didn't, I was twenty you know, what did I know? So, I started taking Spanish classes. And it's a good thing because at the time, French was beginning to decline in demand, and I could never get used to speaking French either. I didn't like to, to say, oh. (laughs) I couldn't, you know, I just couldn't get used to the, the accent. So, I just stayed in Spanish. And that's what since you ask about my skills, they came in handy because I had read a lot of the works already as a kid, and I liked the people in the Spanish department. And that's where I stayed. Visintainer: Yeah, thank you. And I was, I was curious as to, because you went, you ended up, you know, getting your PhD in Spanish, how you kept those skills up being in an environment where outside of your home you didn't necessarily have the opportunity (Visintainer and Clark speaking over each other). Yes. Clark: I met the Cuban when I was my third year of graduate school. And he was in high school. So, his parents were my classmates. And so he was, you know my parents had a fit because he was nineteen. And when we got married, he turned twenty the next day. (laughs) And my parents thought he was gonna, he was too young. He was gonna, you know, leave me after a while. And I, but I thought, “Well, who cares? I'm gonna go for it.” And so, we spoke Spanish at home, and his parents spoke Spanish at, at home. So it was, I got into that other culture. And in fact, I got, I didn't have a Spanish accent when I was in college or with--when I was in high school. But I got, got the Spanish accent after living with Jose for all those years. Because we--and he doesn't have any accent. But anyway, so he came when he was fourteen, and so he had been in the US for five years. So anyway, that's how I ended up staying in the Spanish field. And kind of rediscovering my country through the academic degree. Because I specialize in Mexican literature. I met all these Mexican scholars. And I was in a totally different environment when I got back than I was Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 when I left. I didn't, I only had one aunt who was kind of an academic, but everybody else, you know, they were home. They stayed at home and they didn't, typical Mexican wife role. But I did have an aunt, who had the best collection of Mexican literature that I've ever seen anywhere. And I was trying to get her to leave it to me, but it didn't work out. So. Anyway anything about graduate school, or? Visintainer: Yeah I was, well I was curious when you moved, just to circle back a little bit, when you moved to Lansing. And you moved there, and then you went down south to Mississippi, and you talked about the culture shock. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about the culture shock. What you found as you were just starting to adjust to the Midwest. And then you moved to the South, what you found was shocking and the differences in those places. Clark: Well, the school, first of all, most of the schools I went to had all girls. And of course, the school in Michigan was a mixed, you know, boys and girls. And there were things happening. This is the time in the fifties that when education in the US totally did a change, a pivot, you know. Because I read a book called The Lonely Crowd. And it explains what happened in the US in the fifties, that the school systems started to do things very differently than before. For example, instead of having a desk that flipped--that had a lid, so you could keep all your stuff hidden, and private. It started to have these chairs with a, just a paddle where you could write on, and all your stuff was in view for the rest of the world. And they started to put your stuff on the bulletin board, your work on the bulletin board. And that was very alien to me. I had gone to these schools where everything was very regimented, the nuns and the-even I went to a school that was not Catholic. And it did have boys and girls, but it was very regimented. And you had to obey the teacher. You had to, when the teacher came in the room, you stood up. And when you went--were gonna go out, you had to get in single file. And everything was very regimented. And we wore uniforms. Whereas here in the school in Michigan, no uniforms. The classrooms were all like people sitting around tables. What was that? (laughs) Like the Socratic method, all of a sudden. (laughs) And people sitting around these open tables. And so the kid--the boys would put their feet up on the table, and the teacher didn't say anything. We had a science teacher who brought apples to the class. You know, eating in class? Wow. So things like that. And then just kind of a lack of structure at the time in the, in the school when I was used to all that. But at the same time, this kind of a Nazi-- no, I take that back. The gym teacher who says, “No, you will not, you will take a shower.” She wouldn't even let me like, go early and take a quick shower by myself. You know, she didn't wanna make any accommodations. So, I couldn't understand that. I understood authority cause of the nuns, but I don't know. I just--my mom never really followed the conventions. She was always a free spirit. So, in that way, we never had all the regimented things that you find in Mexico. Like my aunt died. Her sister died very young, and she would refuse to wear black. So, all her relatives criticized her. And then all my cousins were saying, “How come you're not wearing black?” So that was something that, you know, I was used to. But in the US there were some other things that some rigidity that I couldn't understand. Anyway, I was thirteen, you know, so that's not a good age to change cultures. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I was kind of, I was a kind of, well-developed thirteen, so the boys were starting to pay attention. But the boys in Mexico were eighteen, for example. You know, people are used to difference Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 in age. And the boys in Michigan were thirteen and they were shorter than I was. And just little boys. So that was also kind of sad because I was beginning to develop, you know, interest in the opposite sex. Plus the schools, you know, they were clannish. So of course, I was not a popular person because I didn't, I didn't speak the language. And I don't, I'm not talking about English, I'm talking about the teenage language, you know. I didn't have a group that I could hang out with. So I was kind of a nerd because I liked math. Then people didn't know where to put me cause I was too nerdish. And then at the same time, I was kind of sophisticated. I was more adult than they were. So it was a difficult time, to find a place there. Visintainer: When do you feel you found your place? Clark: Where? Visintainer: Where, yeah. Where? When? Clark: Kind of in Oxford. Because the girls were really friendly to me. Even the popular girls liked me. And they did the did the best they could to include me in all their activities and all the things that they were doing. And I found a friend there. We're still friends. We still write each other. We used to visit each other, but she was, she was a professor at USC (University of Southern California) and then she moved. She was--her father was a professor also. And this girl was, you know, she was kind of my intellectual equal in a way. She read a lot. She introduced me to a lot of English writers, cause her father was an English professor. And we used to kind of joke, with kind of sophisticated weight. I was--I really thought it was funny that I wish I had some stuff that I wrote when I was that age, because I think we were pretty witty at the time. And so that made me feel good. And she used to buy all these novels at the drugstore, and she would take off the front covers so her mother wouldn't know that they were X-rated (laughs). So, you know, I mean it was a fun time to be with somebody who was my age and was really into that stuff. And so she moved to Massachusetts, unfortunately. So that hit me in the head, because I don't fly anymore. And I don't think she's flying very much either. We're both--I'm gonna be eighty next month, and she's gonna be eighty in December, so we're getting there. So-Visintainer: But you've kept in touch. Clark: Yeah. Yeah. And that was great because she ended up at USC. She started out in Illinois, and then went to Texas, and she ended up at USC. So when she--her husband was at San Diego State, so she was living in La Jolla for a while. And we had to see each other a lot. So we still do a Zoom conversation once in a while. So that was, she contributed a lot to that. And then I have another friend that I stay in touch with who lives in Alabama. But we still stay in touch and they're Democrats (laughs). And then I had another friend who passed away two years ago. So, those three friends were great, and we were close. And so I didn't feel lonely anymore. I didn't date anybody until I was almost a freshman in college. I just wasn't attractive to guys, to the--I wasn't a southern bell. So I wasn't appealing to guys because I didn't just go and bat my eyelashes at anybody. I didn't know how to flirt at the time. Visintainer: Well and you needed you needed to find your group. Clark: Right. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: Yeah. So then you, you go to Lawrence (Kansas) after you graduated? Clark: Yes. Just, you know, my dad told me--asked me when I was a senior in high school, “Where is it that you wanna get your PhD?” (Laughs) He didn't even ask me, “Are you gonna get a PhD?” No. He says, “Where is it that you're going for your PhD?” So I, I'm one of those people who takes the first offer I get. I didn't take the first offer for marriage that I got, but I did take the first offer for graduate school. I took the first offer for the first job, for my first job. And then, the Cal State San Marcos job was kind of a first offer in the sense that it was new place. So anyway, I just I applied to places and I liked the--as I said, I was in French, so I applied at the University of Kansas because they had a good French department. So I got, it really appealed to me that, to study French at KU. And then I ended up studying Spanish. So. Visintainer: And so you came to KU and then you met Jose. And, so how did you meet Jose? Clark: Well, his parents were my classmates. Visintainer: That's right. Clark: And there was a party--this is a weird story too. There was a party, some Venezuelans, they--KU has an amazing number of programs with Latin America. I mean, just, you wouldn't believe it. And they had a program, with a Ford Foundation program to bring Venezuelan engineers to Kansas. So, my mother-in-law was the secretary to this project. And they invited her to a big party. And so her husband, who was also my classmate, and he was kind of a, had a roving eye. He had a crush on my roommate. So, he invited both of us so he could get to dance with my roommate. And then he went to Jose and said, “Hey, you know, I'm really interested in this girl. Would you mind dancing with the roommate?” (laughs) Who was me, “So that I can dance with Judy.” And so, he came and asked me to dance. And so, I thought, “Oh, how great.” Cause he was very good looking. And we just hit it off and we danced all night at that party. And at five in the morning his parents invited me to go have cognac in their--at their apartment. So, you know, we just started to see each other. But he was nineteen, and he looked like he was younger. So I thought, I'm really robbing the cradle big time, so I better stop this. So, I asked him point blank, how old are you? Because by this time, we had seen each other a couple of times, and he said, nineteen. And I thought, whew, you know, he's not underage (laughs). And also, you know, this is okay, we're having fun. No big deal. But we realized, you know, it was a lot more serious than we thought. So, we met--that was the Thanksgiving weekend of 1966. And we got married in (19)67 in August the next year. So, we didn't have a very long courtship. And what really speared that forward was that he was living with his parents in this duplex. And his grandmother was getting out of Cuba. You know, they were, they were Cuban refugees from the Castro regime. So, grandma was getting out and she had to share his bedroom, Jose's bedroom. So, I said, well, we couldn't live together. The department was very conservative, and I would've lost my assistantship if we had moved in together. It sounds hard to believe that people think in those terms now, but they were very, very conservative. So, I thought I didn't wanna jeopardize my studies. And so, we said, “Well, what do we do? We break up or we get married, you know, either one.” And so, he was just starting his freshman year anyway, so I said, “Well, I think we ought to break up because this is not--it's not viable.” I was living in this little apartment and, anyway I was making $240 a month, and I wasn't gonna marry somebody who didn't have any income. And his parents were students Transcribed by Aaron Williams 8 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 also. Cause when you got out of Cuba, no matter how much money you have, you have to get out with the clothes on your back. And his mother was a journalist, but she had, who came from a wealthy family, but she had to go work in a donut shop in Miami when they first came, got out of Cuba. So we didn't have any money, none of us. So I said, “Well, you know I don't know if we should get married. This is too serious. It's too soon.” And then, so then he gives me his grandmother's wedding band, and he says, “I'm serious. I really wanna marry you.” So we decided, okay, let's go ahead. And we got married and he got a job working in the language lab. And in the--at the library. (laughs) So we were living on like, with $350 a month. But we were living okay, you know? We discovered, yeah, we can make it go. And my parents came around and they really liked him, and they ended up just loving him to death, you know? So that was, that was a good thing. Even though a lot of people talked to us and said, “Don't do it. It's too soon.” Including the guy who married us was his speech professor. And he said, “Well, I'm not gonna marry you guys until I talk to you quite a bit.” So we had to go to his house many times. So he would give us--he was a Methodist minister, as well as being a professor on campus. And he talked to us a lot. And finally he says, “Yeah, I think you're gonna do okay.” And so, he married us. We had a very plain, very simple wedding in his parents' duplex. We invited friends who were also graduate students. They brought food. It was kind of a potluck. And here we are, fifty-six years later. Visintainer: It was a good start then. Clark: Yeah. That's been, to me, that's been the best part of my life is, you know, having Jose next to me for fifty-six years. Most of our lives. Anyway, so that was KU. I got my PhD in Spanish in ‘71. Like everybody else, I had to apply to a million places for a job. And I had, San Bernardino sounded really good to me because it was in California. I had my best friend, my best friend at KU was teaching there already. She had gotten her PhD at Ohio State, and she'd gotten hired at San Bernardino. We could have been done the same time, but I just, I wasn't in any hurry because Jose was not, wasn't graduating until ‘71. Oh, sorry. (laughs) Visintainer: No, you're fine. Clark: Tell me if I'm giving you too much information. Visintainer: No, no, no. It's really interesting. I'm happy you're sharing and thank you for sharing. So, Jose was graduating in 1971, so you had some time to kind of figure out your next steps. Clark: Yes. We didn't know what he was gonna do. So, he applied to graduate schools and he got accepted at UC Irvine. So we were happily planning for that. And of course, I had to stay in San Bernardino cause I've never been a good driver. So, he was gonna drive to Irvine to go to graduate school there. But he thought the drive was a little bit too long. And we weren't used to commuting and all that California life. So he applied at the library at Cal State San Bernardino. They had a temporary job, and it was perfect. He just loved it. So, he started working there. And that was ironic because there were a lot of jobs that I didn't take because--that I didn't pursue, because they were always asking me, “What's your husband gonna do? What's he gonna work at?” And so they would turn off because he didn't, he was--didn't have a job yet. And I was also childbearing age, and a lot of people didn't wanna hire you. I won't mention a couple of universities that I got approached by. And according to my professors, I had a really good chance to get--go there. But they were worried about Jose. So ironically, he started working where I worked. And then he got another job since that was only, that was Transcribed by Aaron Williams 9 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 temporary. The funds for that dried up. And so, the University of Redlands hired him. The library there. And he loved it. But I said, “No, you better get your degree because you can't be, just be a clerk all the time.” So he started going to USC and very slowly, and finally I said, “No, you just quit whatever you're doing and finish your degree, because that's the only way you're gonna have a career out of being a librarian.” And sure enough, it worked out so well because he's loved that career. And it's kept us on an even keel, always. Because my career sometimes was high pressure ‘cause I did some administrative work along the way. And so he, it was always good to have him in this job that he loved. And that wasn't super high pressure until he got in the county. And then that turned out to be very high pressure because he was--he became a supervisor. And that's, you know, anytime you go into administration, that's it for you because you start leaving the job that you love and doing a job that pays better, but gives you a little more prestige. But-- (laughs). Visintainer: Yep. It's very true. Well, as a librarian, I'm very happy that Jose was able to find his avocation in our vocation. Clark: I know. And it's, you know, librarian is such an interesting, has such an interesting opportunity to do all kinds of different things. So that he's found that, and he's always worked with women really well, you know, because so many women are in the library. And I work with men really well. So, we compliment each other because we're not jealous people who think, “Oh, you're gonna be with this person.” You know, I just always hung out with guys in my profession. And he's always gotten along with women and met--made really good friends in both areas. Visintainer: Yeah. And to circle back a little bit to coming to CSU San Bernardino, you mentioned that you had wanted to go to California, and I was curious as to what was the draw for California as opposed to other parts of the United States? Clark: Well, California has always had really good press, maybe until now that the states are so divided. But it always, it was always like paradise, if you wanna go to paradise in the US, go to California. And they show you all these orange groves and this beautiful weather and the ocean. And it was just, it just has a good ethos, you know? So I always really wanted to go to California. My parents ended up in Florida. I never had any desire to go to Florida, and for any, every reason in the world. But somehow California just seemed like this paradise. And also, you know, LA. Wow. San Francisco. (laughs) My dad lived in San Francisco many years, and he was always talking about San Francisco being such a great place. And then LA with Hollywood and, you know, just sounded like--plus the proximity to Mexico. You know, I always kept thinking, “Well, if I'm in California, I can always cross the border.” You know, I always felt kind of uneasy when I felt--when I lived really far from the border. Which is ironic because now I never get down there (laughs) you know, just. But I did find some relatives who live in Tijuana, so that's been great. You know, they come to visit. And, it's really good to keep track of my family that way. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: I found them on Facebook of all places (laughs). Visintainer: So Facebook has some, has some good things about it. Clark: Yeah. (laughs) Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: You can connect people. So you came to, so what was the decision to leave CSU San Bernardino and come to San Marcos? Clark: Well, when I was about three or four years before I left there, I discovered that I'd like to be an administrator. Because the Dean of Humanities left, and he asked me if I would be his replacement. So even though it was a really hard job, because he didn't look after any budgets. I mean, he was just so, he was a wild, loose, kind of a loose cannon. And I had to go, and as one colleague told me, I had to go shovel a lot of cages at the zoo when I took over that job. But I loved that job. So, it was an interim job. I had it for two years, and then I, when I applied for the permanent job, I didn't get it. So, I thought, “Well I, but I wanna do this.” So I started applying different places for dean's jobs. And I got, I did pretty well in the market, but it just wasn't appealing to me to go for several reasons. I had been in San Bernardino for nineteen years. I was used to the good weather. And so this, the Cal State San Marcos thing came up and he said, “You know, you start the, a program from scratch. Start the department from scratch.” And so I talked to people about it, and they, I said, “What do you do?” And says, “Oh, you can hire the kind of people that you want. You can go after the kind of faculty that you want. You can create the kind of curriculum that you want that you find is good. You can do a lot of stuff. It's, it's a huge opportunity.” So, I applied for it, and sure enough, I got the job. So it was--I moved kind of laterally because I had tenure there. I was a full professor. But I had no idea of all the horrendous amount of work that you have to do when you start a program. And, I probably wouldn't do it again. And my dad had done that in Florida, and he said, “Oh, be careful, because it's so much work.” And I just, you know, I just went in there thinking, “Well, how bad can it be?” And it was pretty bad (laughs) because I had to work year-round. And it was one thing after the other. I'll give you an example. Marion Ried (Dean of the University Library) came up to me and she was in charge of some funds that were assigned to the university. I don't know why they put her in charge of that. But anyway, she says, “You know, there's $150,000 earmarked for a language lab, and if you don't spend it,” this is in April when she talked to me, “If you don't spend it by the end of June, Bill Stacy's gonna take it.” He was the (university) president. “He's gonna just take it and spend it on something else because it’s gonna become available to the whole campus.” And I said, “We can't have a language department without a language lab. No way.” So, I had to go buy a language lab, and I had from April to end of June to do that. Well, how do you do that? Visintainer: Yeah, where did you begin? Clark: Yeah. I was lucky enough that the San Bernardino campus had redone its language lab, and they had formed a committee and they had, you know, interviewed different lab companies. And they had decided what kind of lab they wanted. And they already had the infrastructure though. And I had to start from zero. So I went to talk to the guy who ran that lab. Fortunately, he was somebody that I had supervised, and he just loved me. So he gave me all kinds of information and all kinds of help about what some of the pitfalls would be. And I picked that lab that, it was a Norwegian company, something like that. Norwegian, I think Norwegian. And I had to come up with a sole-source justification in just a little bit of time, because there was another company that was saying, “Why didn't you pick us? Why didn't you buy our lab?” And then I was lucky because I got two faculty who came, and they were very versed on the--they came from UC Irvine, and they had learned how the lab can be used as a teaching tool. And it was, you know, they had done workshops and they had done all kinds of stuff. And that's one of the reasons that I picked them to come be our next faculty. Because they had learned so much about what a language lab does other than just be an aide. Electronic aid, you know, technology aid. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 And it was a married couple. They both came together. And so she was the, she was doing all the all the software kind of stuff, and he was doing all the hardware kind of stuff. So, I was lucky that way that I-but I also see that as part of a, you know, being hired with experience. Because if I had been hired out of graduate school, I wouldn't have been able to do anything like that. And so, because I came with having chaired the department, having been a dean, and when you're Dean of Humanities, you deal with a lot of equipment. Because I had the arts under my supervision. And I had to deal with lots of interesting types of equipment. So it worked out. But it was a very tough two years. I was in, at one point, I was in like thirty-five hiring committees. Visintainer: Wow! Clark: And one of those committees was for literature, the literature department, which was called English at the time. We had eight hundred applicants for one position. Visintainer: Wow. Clark: So, you had to learn how to, you know, how to process stuff very quickly. And so, and also I had learned how to deal with administrators, higher administrators, to negotiate for things. So I was a little bit more informed as to how to deal with things. Because a lot of the faculty don't, they don't deal with anybody. They just go on, they do their great teaching and they do their research, but they don't they're not used to wheeling and dealing, for example. And so I learned very quickly that the first best, the people who got the best things, were wheelers and dealers in the faculty. I learned from some of my colleagues very well because you don't just get things by saying, “Yes, I accept the job. I'll be there this day. When do I start working?” You have to say, you know, “What, how much office space am I gonna get (laughs)? How much--what is gonna be my budget for traveling and for hiring? And how many faculty am I gonna have in five years? When you had to start that kind of thing. And in a way, I was not that good when I first came, but I learned very quickly. Very, very quickly you learned that. So that's what brought me to San Marcos wasn't the weather like a lot of people (laughs). It was the opportunity of starting a new department. And that was really interesting. But ironically, my ideal colleague--I was able to hire this guy. He was just wonderful. But he hated California. He couldn't, he couldn't live away from his mom. And so he left after two years. But I did get some of the other faculty that I think are ideal and wonderful. They're still here. Visintainer: That's good. So what was your vision when you started the department? Clark: Well, I wanted to, I wanted to have a major that would give the students the opportunity to go in different directions and to get lots of skills without having to, you know, because a lot of the majors are very academic. And I love the--I love that, but it doesn't give them many tools like to be teachers or to be like, go to work in business. And so I wanted to major that would be, that would help students be very versatile. And they could go in lots of different fields. And I think I accomplished that. Our major was, there were only two of us working on the major at the beginning, and it got accepted by the chancellor's office on the first meeting, you know. Because we came up with this modular plan, and also just wanted to hire a lot of faculty that I would love to work with. That was my vision as the harmonious department, because if people don't get along--and I came from a lot of programs where people didn't get along at all. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 12 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: That's really interesting. Cause yeah., cause there's a lot of at times disharmony in academia. Clark: Oh yeah! Visintainer: And in some ways, you know, for a good reason because there's a lot of debate and thought that has to go into things. ButClark: I mean, a department is made up of a whole bunch of prima donnas. Visintainer: Yeah. (laughs) So how did you go about building harmony in a department, in your department? Clark: I don't know. I can't tell you exactly. You just have a feel for people. And I was, I just use my instincts a lot. And so I try to get people to apply that I knew were very easy to work with, that love to work with you, that no matter what you ask of them, they would do it. But the guy who came with me, the first guy, we went too far because he never said no to anybody. And at some point he burned out. But he was good to work with. I mean, he was good to be here the first two years. Unfortunately, he passed away not too long ago. But, anyway he--so I just, I just had a feeling that people who were my friends, besides being my colleagues. And I knew a lot of people, you know. I had--they applied a lot of people from different areas applied here because I went, I worked a long time for grading the Advanced Placement (AP) exam. So, I had a huge network because those, you meet people every year, and you get to know each other. And so that's what it was, just, you know--and then what my big goal was always to help people thrive. And not put any obstacles in their development. And one of my professors at KU said, because I, my dissertation was kind of weird. And then I said, “You know, I'm surprised that, that you approved it, because I know that it is very unconventional approach to literature.” And he said, “Look, to me, your dissertation is your beginning work. If I'm gonna consider that your master work, then you're in trouble. Because this is what's gonna kick you into the field and into the academic world.” And I did have a professor who didn't wanna approve it, and these guys kind of rallied. And they said, “We couldn't, you couldn't take it out of the building to read it.” And so, he refused to go to read it in the building. Visintainer: What, so what--what was weird about your dissertation? Clark: Well, it was a very like a very close reading of some works. Very, very close. I was using a method that was kind of controversial at the time. It was called the--what is it called? My head is not working anymore. But anyway, you, if you read a work very closely, you analyze, you know like even stylistic patterns in something. You can kind of make conclusions that are much broader about the work then you can if you approach it from the outside and just look at the--look at it from a bird's eye view. Like if you read something and you say, the plot is this and the blah, blah, blah. But if you’re really close, read closely and about all the language used in it and everything. And some people at the time didn't like that method. It was an, it was a method followed by some English writers, American writers. It was an American thing. But I applied it to Mexican literature. So, a lot of people thought that was, it was stupid that it didn't lead you anywhere. And this writer that I went--that I wrote on, had been written on by a lot of people. And so this guy who didn't wanna pass me said, “Where's the, where's the biography of this writer? Where's the list of the his works? You don't learn anything about the guy.” I said, “No, no, no. I don't Transcribed by Aaron Williams 13 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 wanna learn about the guy. I wanna learn about the worlds he's creating in his works. You know, what kind of world is he creating with the use of this language?” And so it was--you know, some people thought it was too weird or maybe it didn't go far enough out. You know, it was not a universal thing. But it was, I was kind of following a method by an anthropologist (Claude) Lévi-Strauss, you know. Have you heard of Lévi-Strauss? Visintainer: I have not. Clark: Anyway, he studied people by patterns of--I'm losing my train of thought here. He studied people by the patterns in their culture, not coming from you know, the outside and saying, “Oh, they do this, they eat at this time.” But it's following very, very specific things that they did. Anyway. So it worked for me and, and I learned a lot about analyzing literature. And so that helped me in my teaching. So, whereas this guy, the professor who didn't wanna pass me, pass my dissertation. Well he--I had a course from him and he ordered ten books. It was gonna, it was Romanticism in Spain, okay. Romanticism in literature in Spain. And he started with the eighteenth century before Romanticism. And he gave us so much stuff about the eighteenth century, he never got to Romanticism. So I returned all the books without reading them because he never got to the subject. And so that's, I wanted to avoid that at all costs. I said, “I wanna read the works, I wanna see what the work is itself, and I don't care if the author was, you know, if he was gay, if he was an idiot, I don't care. I wanna see what he left behind.” So it was very close text reading, textual reading. And some people didn't appreciate that. So. But it served me well. Lemme tell you, I use that method throughout my career and it really helped. Visintainer: Yeah. Clark: And I'm still reading like that. I don't read as much anymore, but I'm still kind of, “Oh look, this word he uses here.” Anyway, any more questions? Visintainer: Yeah. Could we circle back to the kind of the founding of the department? Clark: Yes. Visintainer: And I was just curious, what do you think was your, like your biggest challenge in those early years in founding the department, and coming on board at CSUSM? Clark: Oh, I don't wanna say. Visintainer: (Laughs) Well, you don't have, you don't have to answer if you don't want to. Clark: No, no. Because, because this campus developed very--I came from a very organized campus. And most people didn’t wanna realize that this was a CSU campus. They thought they were gonna create something from scratch that was brand new. And there are all these people who came from these different backgrounds, like faculty who came from liberal stu--liberal arts colleges, from big research universities. And I said, “This is a Cal State, people. We, that doesn't mean we have to look down on anybody, but it's, we have to be real about who the students are gonna be, and then what they need to learn.” So, ‘cause I've always been kind of an elitist in my, in my own mind, but not when it comes to educating students. I think, you know, you really need to consider the fact that people come from Transcribed by Aaron Williams 14 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 backgrounds that maybe aren't, they're not up to here academically, but they're very bright people. So just look at them, look at their interests, look at their--what they wanna learn. And I always love the Cal States because people pay for their own education. People pay for their, you know, they’re often the first person in their family to go to college. They work forty hours a week to go to college. They have children, they have other interests. They have jobs, they have parents. If you come from a Latino family, you know, you have to take care of your parents. They have husbands who don't want them to study. There's machismo there. You know, a big, big obstacle for Latina women. Anyway, just look at the students that we get, and don't look down on them. Look at what the possibilities are with these people because they're, they wanna learn. They're here because they want to be, not because, you know like when my last class at KU was on Friday, it would meet Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays at four o'clock in the afternoon. And sometimes on a Friday, I wouldn't have anybody showing up. Even though they knew that it counted, that I took off for absences. They just didn't care, you know, because they were gonna go into daddy's business, or they were gonna go into their uncle’s (business), you know, these people who they just weren't interested. And so, I said, that's what I love about the Cal State, is it has such a mission of, like now it's right in line with us because of the upward mobility. Because I was lucky that I didn't have to think about that, ‘cause I had parents who were educated. I always had books in my house. I always had. But these people who are, they've never seen a book in their house. They don't even get a magazine. And all of a sudden they have to, they have all these things thrown at them, but they wanna learn. So, I always had a lot of respect for the Cal State system for that reason. And a lot of my colleagues just, it makes me sad that they think the students are not up to par, blah, blah, blah. But it's, I've always loved the state universities because they want to educate the masses. And I love, I love for the masses to learn! And I like to be in the trenches. So that was why I didn't wanna leave the system. At the same time, you know, I yearned for these people who, like my friend, the USC friend, she’s taught-she's had years when she taught five or six student graduate students. And that's her whole teaching load. Where my advisor who had a chair at KU and he could just go. He went through South America traveling one year and left us in his house, to house sit for them. And, just visiting different universities and different libraries and doing research all over the place for his book. And he didn't have to teach a single class in two years. So I yearn for that, but at the same time, I like the idea of seeing people. And I still have people who, you know, look me up. Visintainer: That's impact. Clark: My students have retired already. Some of my students, my first students from San Bernardino. Yeah this one woman, she tracked me down here, and every year she and her husband come to visit us for when they come on vacation. And she's a retired teacher already. So it's, you know, it's very sad how some people don't care. Once the students leave, that's it. Visintainer: Yeah. I think there's definitely an ethos that comes from--that comes from being at a teaching university and embracing it and-Clark: Right. Visintainer: Great things that it can do for social mobility and upward mobility. And I appreciated you mentioning and talking about our students. And that kind of had me spur a question that I wanted to ask Transcribed by Aaron Williams 15 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 you. And was, what do you think was the big takeaway that you've learned from our students over the years? Clark: That they want, they want to learn and that they want to prosper. And very often their circumstances do not allow them to prosper, and do not allow them to learn. Many, many people I had to--I had a husband one time coming from a student who was in a couple of my classes, and he said, “I wanna come and sit in your classes cause I wanna watch my wife and make sure she doesn't talk to any guys.” I said, “No, you're not welcome there, because you're not a student and you're there for the wrong reasons.” So, I was worried that she was gonna get the brunt of that, but she eventually left that guy. But he would sabotage her learning. And I think, you know, and she kept going. She kept going. And I had another one here on this campus who, she was regularly beaten by her husband because she wasn't--she didn't have the food cooked when she, you know, she was in class and she didn't have the meal prepared. And so she's--but she went ahead and got her master's degree somehow. And I think the students are very resilient and they work very hard to make it. They don't, of course there are a lot of deadbeats too, but that doesn't--they're everywhere. But the majority of the students, I mean, I ask in class, I never had to work as a waitress or anything like that, you know. And I asked in my class one time, “What, how many of you're working?” And I would say, I would calculate like eighty percent raised their hands. And I said, “How many of you work more than twenty hours a week?” And most of them raise their hands again. Whereas, you know, I got to work in the language lab, I got--but that was for my extras. You know, my dad said, “If you want this and that, if you wanna buy records or if you wanna buy this.” But we didn't have to go to work. And we had a home that supported doing homework. And my mom wasn't around completely. But anyway. It was good. I had a good upbringing in that sense, and I wanted the students to get help that way. So I did a few things that weren't, didn't mean very much but for example, when I went to Mexico City you can buy books. Like you can buy literature in the newsstands for like fifty cents a book or something. So, I would buy if I knew I was gonna use the book in my class, if you order it from, well now Amazon, but if you order it from a bookstore, they'd have to pay like ten dollars for that book. And I would buy all these books for fifty cents and then bring them back and say, “If you can't afford the books, come and see me.” So, they would come, sometimes very ashamed. But I said, “Don't be, don't be embarrassed. Just, you know, just come and see me.” And I’d say, “Okay, you can use this book. Use it in the class. If you really like it and you wanna keep it for your library, you can keep it. If you don't wanna keep it, just give it back to me.” And they would always keep it, because they were building a library. That was so cool. And then all my books, when my mother died, all her books came to me. And there were duplicates of a lot of stuff I had. So I took them to the office and I said to the graduate students, “Take anything you want.” And now we're, fortunately we get to leave things to the campus. We're fortunate that we're--we decided to leave our estate to the campus. Because we want to, we want students to prosper in any way they can. And sometimes it's just a question of a thousand dollars that's gonna put them over the edge. I wish we had millions, but we don't. So. Visintainer: Well that's, that's wonderful to be able to leave something to foster student success in the future. Clark: Yeah. Because I have a family, but they can look after themselves, they've had good opportunities. And, we don't have kids. So we're not responsible for anybody in particular. So, I don't wanna make, I don't wanna tire you because I've been talking so much about myself (laughs). Transcribed by Aaron Williams 16 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 Visintainer: No, no, you're fine. Well, we can, we can certainly look towards wrapping things up. I've enjoyed talking with you. I did wanna--I did want to ask you kind of a wrap up question. Is that, is there anything that you wish I would've asked you that I didn't? Clark: Not really. I think, I can just go ahead and talk forever about all this. It's an eighty-year-old life, so eighty years of being on this earth, that's a long time. And so there’s things that I don't remember at all. And the things that I remember so vividly, and when I went to see Roma (2018 film), I just cried throughout the whole movie. Bought it on Netflix, but I just--I cried and cried, and cried the whole movie. Because he captures that neighborhood so well. And he, there's a documentary that where he explains how he captured that neighborhood. And he was really meticulous about every single thing, like those little soldiers at parade every morning. I mean, there were details like that, that I've never seen in a movie before. And also because Mexico City always looks like a, this gray place with dirt, dirt streets and everything. And here's this guy who is just--captures the neighborhood that I grew up in. I mean, what are the chances? Because most people show you the tourist view of Mexico City. And so that's what, that's what I miss. It's like the daily noises, and the daily routines, and the kind of house that it is and the maid. Very sad because we did have a couple of maids, like the--like this girl, they would come and knock on your door and say they were there from Oaxaca and did you have any, did you have any work for them? And my mother took, did take a couple of people like that. We didn't have any money at the time, but anyway, she did take a couple of these girls. And they didn't even speak Spanish, these poor girls. So that just--that really got me, that movie. And so I always tell people, if you wanna get to know me, watch that movie. But I don't, I'm not the maid. I'm the, I'm the person from the señora, you know? Because the grandma didn't even know her name. And then I kept thinking, I didn't know any of these girl's names. I didn't know where they came from. And when she has a baby, and they take her to the hospital, says, “What's her name?” And she doesn't even know her name. Because there's, it's another world that I never got to know. And I used to think, “Oh, Oaxaca, that has to be the scum of the earth.” And, and I fell in love with Oaxaca the first time I went there. It kind of shows you that you don't, you never appreciate your own world until you're out of it. Visintainer: Yeah I, you know, as somebody who did not grow up in Roma but I saw the movie, I thought it was an amazing, just an amazing creation of space. And I didn't know if it was you know, how particularly accurate it was or not. So, it's nice to hear that it really spoke to you on an emotional and memory level. Clark: Yeah. There, this little scene, there's a scene when the guy leaves her (Cleodegaria "Cleo" Gutiérrez, main character of Roma), she says she's pregnant and the guy leaves her, and she's sitting on the steps of this movie theater. And there are all these noises because people go outside of the movie theater, they're selling a lot of stuff. Little toys and everything. And she's just surrounded by all these noises and she's just sitting there in her loneliness, you know? And here's the interesting cultural thing is that nobody goes to the movies on Sundays, except the maids and their boyfriends and, you know, the domestic help. That's when they go to the movies, and they go see Mexican movies. The middle class goes to see the American movies first run, you know. And they go during the week or on the week--on Saturday, but not on Sunday afternoon, belongs to the servants. So it's an upstairs/downstairs world that most people don't realize. And, so it's kind of hard to also to explain that to people that, you may not have anything in common who is from Mexico. There are people from Mexico that I have absolutely nothing in common with. Cause they were brought up--we had a cleaning lady, and she would not, she invited us to her house on her birthday. She would not sit down with us to eat, even though it was her birthday. And I knew. I understood it. And I, we didn't insist on anything, because she would not sit Transcribed by Aaron Williams 17 2024-04-26 �STELLA CLARK TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-08-09 down with us to eat. So that's--it's a different world that is very hard to explain to people. And, so that's another challenge for me that I live in two worlds in my head. I've got one foot here and one foot there and they never come together. Visintainer: And I think that that's probably an experience for folks that move from country to country or even within countries. Clark: Exiles. Yeah. People who have grown up somewhere else. And, who was I talking to about that the other day? It was very interesting because we were saying because I--oh, I have a lot of, most of my friends are really from someplace else (laughs). Even though, not on purpose, they're faculty on campus. But, I was looking at my, one of my Zumba classes. There was nobody born in the US in that Zumba class. I don't know. I kept seeing, maybe there was one person. But there was a woman from Colombia, there was a woman from Japan, another one from Puerto Rico. Well, Puerto Rico's US, but they have another culture. And so it was just so strange that we're exiles and we do have a common denominator, but that never reaches you the most in the deepest way. You always have, you always have this farness. Visintainer: And I, yes. I wanted to share that I lived in the Rio Grande Valley of TexasClark: Oh, you did? Visintainer: And, yeah. And when I was there, you know, I had somebody tell me what they thought of the Valley, and I thought it was really interesting in that that he said, “It's a liminal place. It's a place that's not quite Texas, it's not quite Mexico.” It exists in its own way and with its own rules and its own identity. And that causes, in some ways, for folks that live in the Rio Grande Valley, that sense of displacement when they’re in other places because they don't feel quite--and I'm speaking in generalities but, you know, there's a feeling of not quite being Texas, not quite being the US, not quite being Mexico all wrapped into its own place and culture. That was really interesting. And, and I really-Clark: Yeah, I really wanna visit with you sometime and hear more about you, so. Visintainer: Yeah. Well, we can get together and chat, but this is not about me, and I just went on a tangent. I apologize. (laughs) Clark: I know, I know. No. No, but it's good. It's good. So well, thank you for the interview and I hope I didn't leave anything major out. But if I did, give me a call or send me an email because, you know how I'm always willing to talk about myself. (laughs) Visintainer: Sure, sure. Well I really appreciate you chatting with me today, Stella. And I'm gonna pause recording and then, and then we can wrap up with anything else. Clark: Okay. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 18 2024-04-26 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clark, Stella. Interview transcript, August 9, 2023. Description An account of the resource Dr. Stella Clark grew up in Colonia Roma, Mexico City, and moved to the U.S. in her early childhood. She grew up in a family who valued education; both her parents received a PhD and she was expected to get one as well. Clark received her bachelor's degree in French and her master's and PhD degrees in Spanish. She began her professional career at California State University, San Bernardino and eventually applied to California State University San Marcos, where she founded the Modern Languages Department and created the university's language lab. In her interview, Clark discusses how she made an impact not only on her students learning but life as well by encouraging all to pursue their academic dreams, and on the struggles that working students and women students face in getting an education. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stella Clark Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-08-09 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Bernadino California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Modern Language Studies Department Education, Higher Immigrants -- United States Kansas University Mexican Americans -- California -- San Diego County Mexican Americans -- Education (Higher) Mexicans -- United States Roma (Motion picture : 2018) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Colonia Roma (Mexico City, Mexico) East Lansing (Mich.) Lawrence (Kan.) Oxford (Miss.) San Bernadino County (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. 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The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ClarkStella_VisintainerSean_2023-08-09_transcript CSUSM history Immigrant experience Latine experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacob Peirce Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Alexa Clausen OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ClausenAlexa_PeirceJake_2022-04-12.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 2022-04-12 Oral history of Alexa Clausen, April 12, 2022 SC027-15 00:51:35 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Adobe houses Historic buildings -- Conservation and restoration. San Diego County (Calif.) Alexa Clausen Jacob Pierce mp3 ClausenAlexa_PeirceJake_2022-04-12.mp3 1:|15(8)|25(3)|36(2)|45(11)|62(1)|84(8)|93(8)|110(2)|126(10)|136(8)|154(6)|164(1)|173(10)|187(6)|201(9)|211(5)|219(1)|235(8)|244(2)|261(1)|273(1)|284(11)|296(6)|308(13)|317(11)|342(5)|351(7)|364(3)|378(6)|388(12)|397(3)|411(1)|423(14)|432(10)|441(7)|457(4)|465(3)|480(11)|488(9)|498(10)|506(8)|520(12)|536(3)|550(4)|559(3)|569(5)|582(5)|597(17) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/45c2cfd31ca6068f7c1bbef6263d29e6.mp3 Other audio English 17 Background / Starting Adobe Home Tours Alexa Clausen: Well, thank you. And I'm happy to be here since we only have an hour, I'll try to do the mini version. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I grew up in Riverside, California. I got my advanced degrees in San Diego, so University of San Diego undergraduate, and then master's degree at San Diego State. At the same time that I was studying, my master's degree took me seven years because I was working full-time for California State Parks. So, I have a career with state parks and essentially doing local regional statewide and contextual related history for projects with state parks. So, when I retired in 2008, we had moved to Escondido in 1993, I think. And I had some friends in the history business, Lucy Burke, who was very active in historic preservation, always nagging me: When are you going to retire? You know, join us and, and all this stuff. So finally, when I did retire, I had our son – I had him late in in life – so he was still in elementary school, high school. So, I wasn't too involved, but I did have the sense that I want to give back to the community of history because when I was working professionally without internet and all this, I was visiting people who were saving history in boxes under their beds. You know, there was some places didn't have historical societies ; it was just mom and pop trying to save history. So, you know, I felt like I wanted to give back, and so I started volunteering and then, when my son was at St Mary's in elementary school, there's another student. His name was Sean McCoy. Well, his father, they had a little birthday party. I think they were in fifth grade, so this might go back to maybe 2004 or 2005, and he lived in Valley Center. The house was adobe, and I was really curious, but in their study there were all these houses on craftsman architecture. I looked at Tom, who's just a really gregarious, hardy guy that runs a landscaping business. He's Cal[ifornia] Poly[technic] [State] [University] educated and in landscaping. And I'm like, no, it's not. It must be his wife. &lt ; laugh&gt ; So eventually at the swim party, the kids were busy and I said, “Hey, you know, Tom who's collection of books here, you're doing craftsmen?” Well, that unleashed Tom, and he found a soulmate in the interest. And as a few years went on, he always said there, “We have to do something. I go to Pasadena to the home tours and they're all rooted in Green and Green Architecture, which was known for the craftsmen, but we have our own, you know, handcrafted Adobes here.” And I'm like, “[O]kay, Tom, let's do a tour.” And he claims that, you know, I kept pushing him to, oh, won't this be fun? And so the two of us kind of started Adobe Home Tour, but we were fortunate that the director Wendy Barker at the historical society wanted to go ahead and take our little idea under her wing. They had been doing garden tours, so they were familiar with parking and talking to homeowners, so we really had a jump there and we were lucky. And of course with the insurance that the Escondido History Center was all behind us. And our very first brochure was a front-to-back 8.5”x11” piece of paper off a copier, and that's kind of where it started. Peirce: Well, you have to start somewhere, right? Clausen: Yeah. It's funny, and of course I was thinking, “[O]h, he'll get over it.” You know, this is one year we had maybe 60 people come and it was word of mouth, mainly his friends and the historical society, people and friends of the homeowners, so it was really grassroots or mom and pop, whatever you want to call it. And our last tour we sold out at 500 tickets. Peirce: Wow. Clausen: Yeah. So that was the route. I came here through my training, I don't own an adobe home and it was really a feeling to give back to history essentially. Alexa Clausen talks about her education and career and how that has led to her interest in adobe homes. Furthermore, Alexa Clausen talks about how her background as a historian for the California State Parks led to her interest in leading adobe home tours. Clausen also talks about different home tours in Southern California which influenced her to start Adobe Home Tours. California State Parks ; career ; San Diego State ; University of San Diego ; volunteering Adobe Home Tours ; California State Parks historian ; Education ; Interest in adobe homes ; Working while getting an education 33.9806° N, 117.3755° W 17 Riverside County 336 Previous career with the California State Parks / Contributions to Adobe Home Tours Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. Going back to your previous stops in your career with the California State Parks, was this something that was kind of in the same realm of what you were doing? Looking at architecture and looking at stuff like that and giving tours, or did you do something different while you were there? Clausen: You know, it really wasn't. The historic preservation and the architecture was handled mainly by specialists, and a lot of that was rooted in the state office of historic preservation, which was like a cousin branch of State Parks and the very highly trained historians specializing in architecture. So, I was really weak and had to do a catch up self-trained. All of my projects were budget driven. For example, if they, maybe the volunteers of the Rangers wanted to do a new booklet for a visitor center and it had a historical element in it, they would budget for hours for that. Or if there's a general plan, they needed a historian to do the cultural. So a lot of my jobs were just skipping around and providing research and history for whatever was budgeted and needed. And generally, if there was like an architectural survey, they were contracted out by specialist, or the state office would contract. So, during my career, for example, they did a thematic statewide survey of the Civilian Conservation Corps buildings that were still in state parks. Now they took their cue from the feds who were doing a survey in national parks and in the forest service, but again, that was handled by specialists. So, you know, while we would exchange, read material, go to the same conferences, it is a specialty that I'm probably not the best at, but I do provide that research for Adobe Home Tour. So, it was a different kind of specialty, yeah. Peirce: Absolutely. It sounds more like you were – in your role with the state parks – you were more of a jack of all trades rather than a master of specifically architecture in that field. Clausen: Oh, absolutely, and in time they umbrellaed all that under cultural resources management and it was the archeologist and the historians and sometimes the landscape architects depending on the project. Peirce: Absolutely. Given that Tom seemed to be your partner in crime in the beginning of this adventure, –and he seemed to have more of the specific knowledge when it came to the adobe tours, based on what you're saying – what would you say that was your biggest contribution to the beginning of it? Was it the organization? Was it your specific knowledge of how to provide background information? What would you say was your biggest contribution in the beginning? Clausen: Well, actually, I think Tom felt like I was just the cheerleader. &lt ; laugh&gt ; But, you know, I think it helped Tom have the confidence. With his career running a landscape business, he wasn't as free to do some things, and I think he always saw me as a little bit of the conduit to the history community. He's second generation – grew up in Escondido through his business and his family – they know every nook and cranny in the city, but Tom I think felt like I was the person that can talk to the historical society and get that connection. And then when it came to maybe talking to some families about the history of their homes – although Wendy did a lot of it in the beginning – in time, I took over all of that as eventually she took another job, but, you know, they had the historical society to run. I think Tom just really needed someone who talked a little more of the language to keep connected with the historical society and the history side of it. That's my take, if you ever tape Tom, maybe he'll have a different, &lt ; laugh&gt ; a different take on it. Alexa Clausen gives an overview of her career with the California State Parks and working in historic preservation and architecture. She also talks about her contributions to starting the Adobe Home Tours with Tom. architecture ; Civilian Conservation Corps ; Escondido ; historic preservation ; historical society California State Parks ; Civilian Conservation Corps ; Historic preservation in the California State Parks 33.1192° N, 117.0864° W 17 Escondido, California 619 Getting involved / Why adobe homes? Peirce: &lt ; laugh&gt ; No, that's absolutely fair. That takes me into something else I kind of wanted to explore with you if don't mind. I'm very interested in how you and Wendy and Tom and everybody else who was involved – especially in the beginning – how you managed to convince people to take part in this project. Because like you said, a lot of these people, these aren't just like “Oh, I own this random home that is just sitting out here for display.” This is where people live and work and raise their families. How did you manage to convince people to take part in what you were trying to achieve? Especially in the beginning. Clausen: You know, I haven't thought about it. Some of it was Tom's personal contacts and he knows people who know people and he knocked on doors, and then Wendy at the historical society, they also knew people who had adobe homes and was literally making lists, like, “Should we call this one? Should we call that one?” but I have to wonder now that you brought it up if the timing was right. Garden tours were becoming very popular at the time. They were fundraisers for not just historical societies, but you know, maybe natural garden clubs. I think garden clubs maybe had a longer history of that, but history house tours were becoming popular at the time. I think a lot of that starts going backwards to the US bicentennial, where historic preservation was taking off, and I have to wonder if people who buy adobe homes sort of needed a validation. Recently he had a potluck, and I ran into a lady who said, “My friends tell me you're crazy to have bought this home. You know, why would you live in this mud home?” &lt ; laugh&gt ; so maybe there's just a little twinkle of wanting the validation. You know, I'm really taking a guess at this ; I hadn't really thought about it. But I do think people had the confidence –the historical society had been doing an annual home tour and then the old neighborhood in downtown Escondido, they started doing a Mother's Day home tour – so the idea of a home tour maybe wasn't as foreign had we been maybe one of the first to ever do this in Escondido. I think those two projects really made people aware and it wasn't just so scary that other people were opening their houses. In the old neighborhood after COVID, it'll be the first time in a few years, and they will do another Mother's Day home tour, and I think they're on their like 25th anniversary. And the historical society, they partnered with that, so they had the experience also and word of mouth that this isn't kind of some creepy people knocking on the door saying, “Whoa, you know, what you can do is clean up your house and let people in.” So, I really didn't think about it and it's not scientific by any manner, but I think there is an opening and I find that Adobe Home Tours love the validation. They love to know that other people, once they've seen their house, they get it. They really think it's something special. That's just my take on it. Peirce: Absolutely. I mean, that makes complete sense. One question I did have as well: was there any sort of impetus? Was this just organic? You just happened to bring this up and it just kind of grew up? Or was there any sort of given that some people want that validation, right? A lot of people may not want to live in this kind of home. Was there any sort of preservation or were these houses being torn down or was there any sort of event like that that was kind of like, “Man, maybe we should foster some sort of appreciation within the region to make sure that we keep this history alive a little bit.”? Clausen: You know, I think that became one of our causes or mantras or whatever is as we backed into this – like just a couple of mom and pop &lt ; laugh&gt ; people with no experience but some dumb luck and some decent connections – is that as these homes aged, and of course, in the history of a lot of the homes, the midcentury, the builders and the real estate developers, they picked out, we call it ‘cherry picked’ the lots. You could go into orange groves and carve out incredible views – and many of the adobe homes have incredible views – and I believe that before property values really started to skyrocket that they were at risk because once you have an incredible view, then you know, we came the era of McMansions. This is happening in cities everywhere: Los Angeles and San Francisco are some of the worst cases where the beautiful Spanish revival homes are gone. They're bulldozed for these – you know, it's probably not polite to call McMansions ; someone coined that phrase for overbloated size of houses with great views. I think we all, the core of us that worked on this had the feeling that they were at risk. The other timing of this is many homes are not eligible for Mills Act and historic preservation review unless they've reached 50 years old. Now, many of the adobes that were in the midcentury revival, the boom that started with the edges of Longview Acres and up and down here in the Via Rancho Parkway area around Felicita Park, Adobe homes were starting to be built in the late forties and into the fifties. If the home had not reached 50 years old, it was not eligible for review as a candidate for a higher level of putting out on a register for review and protection. There's no guarantee, but I think that the age started working for us as these homes were turning fifty and the appreciation with the old neighborhood and appreciation everywhere was starting to grow and the concern for being bulldozed. So it's almost like you had a little bit of a perfect storm coming in for the recognition of an adobe home, and they did stop construction by state law in the eighties. So, then another one of our “Gee, you, you're not going to see these again. You have a chance to really see something special.” Peirce: Was there a reason that they stopped the construction at that point? Was it just not feasible for like a, what is it, like an earthquake code or something like that? Clausen: Well, I talked to several builders. George Patterson when he was living and then Mike Burton, whose father and grandfather – Hiram Smith his grandfather and then Don Burton his father – they had no concerns about earthquakes. They were using a lot of rebar and the adobe block by that time had added a petroleum-based product developed in the late thirties and through the war time, so adobe block now was solid construction. I was told it was all about thermal and insulation. Both builders said it was an argument with the state of California with, I don't know, engineering approval people that went down to the county, that an adobe will take in thermal heating, you know, it takes three days to warm up and, you know, on and on, and they refused to approve adobe construction based on that. The other thing the builder said is that the labor became too costly ; you had labor, construction workers still willing up to a certain time to take and build these, you know, carry these blocks and do this kind of labor. It was easier to get a job somewhere else, and it didn't, you know, literally break your back. So between the rise of cost of labor – and then in Escondido, the adobe block yard went out of business ; the blocks now had to be shipped from Fresno or elsewhere – and it became just too costly to build. So, it was all those things. Peirce: Yeah. That makes sense. You know, it tends to go when things become cost prohibitive, it definitely will stop people in their tracks and in terms of doing that kind of stuff. Clausen: Right. So that ended adobe construction in California, because of course there still is adobe construction in New Mexico, Arizona, and globally, for that matter, you know, worldwide. The adobe is still a popular way to build a cheap way if you have the labor. Alexa Clausen talks about how she became interested in wanting to focus on adobe homes and looking for others who had adobe homes for tours. Clausen then gives a historical overview of adobe homes and their significance in society. Furthermore, she talks the logistics of adobe homes and safety and building measures. adobe homes ; developers ; historical society ; neighborhood ; tour Adobe Home Tours ; Appreciation for adobe homes ; History house tours ; Looking for adobe homes for tours ; Scouting adobe homes 33.1192° N, 117.0864° W 17 Escondido, California 1223 Expansion and evolving / Collaboration Peirce: Yeah, absolutely. Seeing that this isn't the only place where Adobe houses were built – and are built even to this day – as you guys kind of built this program and as it continued to grow, was there any sort of view of trying to expand to a larger area or working with other tours if they existed in places like New Mexico, to try and collaborate in any way? Or was this a very grassroots, “We’re sticking where we are and just kind of making this grow naturally where it is?” Clausen: Well, I think we would've loved to become a bigger, wider organization, but it all comes down to volunteers. And as you know, a lot of this, unless you're a paid staff putting on something like this-- Although we were thrilled: we had a tour in Pauma Valley a few years ago, we've been invited to work with Valley Center Historical Society ; there's a number of adobes there. We were also invited through Dominic Calarco who supervises the park system in Carlsbad ; they would like to feature Leo Carillo and find some adobe homeowners there. So, we do have an interest, very North County interested people, and we'd like to do that, and then it keeps it from being boring Escondido ; not boring, but, you know, you do sort of run out of homes or people that are willing. We do have bigger interest, and we know that people have traveled from Los Angeles and from other places to come and see the homes and be on the tour. In an ideal world? Yeah, wouldn’t it be neat to have this grand old, famous tour? You know, some cities do – the Palm Springs mid-century modern tour is just crazy famous, the Pasadena tours are – but we're restricted now by just a small group of volunteers. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, it can be difficult even with that outside interest when you don't have the facility to make it happen, whether it's personnel or whatever. There's always a friction, there's always that rub that kind of keeps you from doing more, even if there's the interest. Did you take anything from other tours? Did you learn from them? Or did you go, “We want to do something different. We want to kind of stick to our own program here?” Clausen: You know, the way I think this evolved, with a number of our Adobe homeowners haved jumped in after their home was on the tour to take a role and to help out. And so, for example, our current webmaster, Don, he took over the website. Intense interest in adobe, and really likes to post a lot of stuff, even adobe homes for sale. And then we had a lady – Mary Del May – she had taken over for Wendy in 2015 I want to say, I'll have to look it up, and professionalized it, and Tom ; all of them have been on other home tours. So, I think what they brought to the table was things they liked, like, “Gee, you know, it was nice when we had a booklet, a full booklet and, you know, we could cut costs by having sponsor pages. That'll help the printing if we do a bigger booklet.” So, our homeowners who jumped in, I think they did bring experience from things they liked going on other tours. Then as we planned this, I think some things from other tours come in like don't let people stand too long. “Oh, we were in Tucson. We had to wait 45 minutes, but they sold cocktails.” &lt ; laugh&gt ; We're like, oh, we can't sell cocktails, but you know, we do have these, yeah. I think that everyone who has participated brings what they like, and they don't like, suggestions, they work, they don't, we've tried some things. So yeah, I'd say that we have benefited from other tours. Peirce: And it also sounds like you've benefited from, as you've done this program, collaborating with some of the people that have owned these homes, right? Like you said earlier-- Clausen: Oh, absolutely. Peirce: It sounds like that's really been honestly, and correct me if I'm wrong, kind of the heart of the program as it's moved forward. Clausen: It really was helpful because in order to invite and ask people “Would you have your home on the tour?” They're shaking in their boots and to have other homeowners say, look, here's some information, which they've developed a little “Hello, homeowner, potential homeowner. This is what we did, little hit lists of this is what happens.” And then we also developed a security docent guide and docent stations. And that came out of the feedback from the homeowners to pace our volunteers throughout the home and allow people not to wander through on their own, but in groups as a group tour. And a lot of this came from the feedback of the homeowners wanting a little more security, a little more confidence, and most of the kind of tips for, “Hey, do you want to be on our tour,” came from the other homeowners. Absolutely. You know, lessons learned or could have, should have, would have. It's always a little growing thing. I think you're right. I think that this definitely comes from within. Alexa Clausen provides a look into working with other historical sites and societies for Adobe Home Tours. She highlights volunteers being essential to the business of providing tours for adobe homes. Alexa Clausen also gives input about her thoughts on collaborating with others. adobe homeowners ; docent guide ; homeowner ; North County ; Pauma Valley ; volunteers Appreciation for volunteers and docents ; Collaboration with other homeowners ; Expanding Adobe Home Tours ; Interest in adobe homes 33.1581° N, 117.3506° W 17 Carlsbad, California 1634 Keeping history interesting / Choosing adobe homes Peirce: Absolutely, and that's incredible, right? To really get that kind of support from people who see what the benefit is of highlighting this stuff, and just kind of doing that because it not only gets people to participate, but it brings their energy and their enthusiasm along with it. Speaking of enthusiasm, I know that there has been concern in some sectors of historians who are worried about people not being interested in history, people being ignorant of history. What efforts, if any, do you guys have to put in to get people interested in this part of history? Was there any sort of education that you had to put out? Did you have to teach people about this stuff? Did you find any struggles in getting people to come at any point? Or was this something that kind of once people heard about it, they were like “I'd like to learn more about that” or did you fight any struggles? Clausen: You know, we're always amazed at how easy this comes. I think being in the San Diego drivable region, that we're lucky because we are a county where we can still on a Sunday, get somewhere without a lot of trouble, and we do have the support of....like I mentioned, a lot of other historical societies have done garden tours, home tours, many cities have. And so people that love it, we find from our ticket holders, are a very strange combination with flat out “looky loos”: people that want to remodel their kitchen and they want to see others, as realtors are being a little more cautious about appointments and who comes in – for good reason, not to waste their time and security. So we have the people that just love to see other people's homes, and then we have just very hardcore interested – either mid-century modern architecture, maybe even students of architecture, and hobbyists – they are there for the architecture. We have a pretty neat little group of people interested in the garden now. Not every home is going to have a fancy garden – not by any means – but they're there primarily to see the garden and enjoy the garden. And then we do have history buffs ; like that's what I'm just labeling people that love the history. Then year by year, we've tried to pick a theme. LIke last year: “The Romance of the Rancho” where we just call it out that maybe some of this is California fantasy, you know, and the places were carved out of orange groves, they're close to the earth. In some cases, the adobe block was made right there, right on the acreage that was formed and bulldozed, lot of use of heavy beams, sort of that romance of the Rancho. So we've brought that up. In Pauma, we had a chance to talk about the Luiseños building the Pauma mission. We had that be one of our stops and made sure that we arranged to include that. A lot of people told us, “You know, we've always heard about Pauma Mission and we've never gone. It was a chance to go out there.” Um, so we always get a very different mix, but always a mix of people. The strong elements that we always bask in is the people interested in the architecture, and of course, in the history. But I think some of this is people come along, they will read our booklet or the docents will tell them something and we feel there's an appreciation for the historic preservation that leaves every tour. Peirce: Absolutely. It's fascinating, right? You really have to find your niche and it sounds like this program really has found it in just a wide spectrum of people who are trying to see what you guys are displaying out there. You brought up how not every home has a garden or anything like that. Is there any sort of prerequisite to being on a tour for any of these houses or is it literally just, “Hey, you're an adobe house, you can be on it.” Are you a little choosy? How does that specifically work where you decide what goes on each tour? Clausen: We do have some levels. We've had some very simple, honest homes and then we've had some just outrageously beautiful homes from adobe. In some cases we've had to turn people down because in the times they were built the driveways and the parking are impossible. There still are a lot of niches around the Escondido area where they were carved out of an old orange or avocado grove and the parking and the in and out is just out of the question. So that's always a consideration, although we've had some pretty narrow tight squeezes. Some homes, once we've talked to the homeowners, they say, you know, we're really not ready. We would like our home to be, uh, a little closer to ready. They often bought the adobe as a fixer upper, but as everyone knows, it takes time and money and planning, and we've had homeowners who've come back and say, you know, now we're ready. In some cases, we had to turn down people because they were just way too out of the way. I'll give you an example: last tour we had on the edge of Rancho Santa Fe the Osuna adobe, and then a home in Del Dios and then across Escondido, just behind the mall, two homes in that general area – that were drivable. I think we had a house offer way on Deer Springs Road. And so John – our webmaster – sometimes he would take and calculate the mileage, and then if you're 25 minutes one way and the only home out there, we would think that the homeowner would get gypped, you know, people would just say “Let's just go get lunch. We won't drive out there.” So we've tried to save some of the names and the addresses, so we could do a closer cluster of homes and hopefully we haven't missed out on anyone yet, and hanging onto names lets us be able to do that. We've had people who, as they've moved forward, say we just can't do this, you know, family circumstances or everyone just couldn't get on board. You know, a lot of things we expect could happen. We've gotten two thirds of the way and we've had people bail for very legitimate, understandable reasons. In a few cases, we've had previous homes on the tour again. We've had a few homes in that circumstance where an owner stepped up and a lot of times they've made changes. They've learned more about their home and it was enough years for our ticket holders. We have a lot of new ticket holders, so they're not saying, oh, we just saw that home. So yeah, I think there's been a combination of how we get there when the doors open. Peirce: Absolutely. So the individual houses, are the owners responsible for the histography of the tour for those places? Do you guys assist? How does that collaboration work? Clausen: In the last five years, I think I've done the majority of the history. In a lot of cases though, with new owners, sometimes we've gotten really lucky. They're walking their dog, they run into an old timer from the neighborhood, you know, someone who has lived there 40 years, and they'd come back as we're developing the history of their home, or they'd get a lead: a phone number of someone who knew who still own the home. So we've had a combination. I'd say maybe I do easily 70 to 75% of the research, and then 25% comes in from a lot of odd places and on occasion the homeowner themselves. So yeah, I think I've been doing most of it. For the internal side of it, the docent guide, then we lean on the homeowner for their remodel or what they were told about the remodel. If they have a newer kitchen maybe put in in the late eighties – they were told about it by the realtor – the docent on the kitchen stop will let people know what they're looking at. I'd say I've done a good portion of the research. Alexa Clausen talks about how she keeps the history of the tours interesting while catering to different audiences with different levels of knowledge on adobe homes. She also talks about the process of choosing adobe homes which they use for tours. Del Dios ; historic preservation ; Osuna Adobe ; Pauma Mission ; Rancho Alexa Clausen heading adobe tours ; Audience ; Choosing adobe homes for tours ; Interest in adobe tours ; Keeping the history interesting 33.3034° N, 116.9814° W 17 Pauma Valley 2252 Gathering Information / Adobe Home Conditions Peirce: Awesome. Has that been a struggle as well, given that some of these houses - I don't wanna say they're not important, right? They are important, they're historical in their own way. But it’s not like Greta Garbo lived there ; they're just regular homes in Escondido. Has that been difficult to gather that information? Clausen: You know, I've been stuck on homes for variety of reasons. Sometimes what happens is, let's say the homeowner had the adobe built for themselves and they worked the rest of their career at a conveyor belt as an engineer and retired, and perhaps their spouse was a schoolteacher and, you know, very wonderful everyday people. When we actually go look at the house, we generally will start finding jewels on some of the architecture. I think we've been pretty fortunate to have builders who have included architecture to keep the story going. This will be the treatment of the open beams or the fireplaces. Very often, we've had wonderful surviving fireplaces that were not remodeled ; they're still there. We've had homes where the windows were yet not removed ; they were still the old aluminum encasement crank windows, really neat, like ribbon style. It would even be the placement of arches, you know, opening the arch of one room into the next. The unbelievable plate glass windows from floor to ceiling, capturing a style that is brought in from the craftsman era – Cliff May, who has been considered the father of the ranch house style that became mid-century and popularized – how they took the sense of bringing the outdoor to the edge of the indoor. The adobe builders in the mid-century – we’ve found the Weir brothers and others – they will do that plate glass window with the view, right from the bottom, right to the edge of the eaves with phenomenal views, taking advantage and placing the home on that view. Without a doubt, the architecture will jump in and take over. Funky chimney treatments, little touches like a little hut, an opening to put in firewood, right by the fireplace treatment of the mantle or the hearth. Maybe there's some amber inserted glass that's still from the original ; once in a while, even the lighting fixtures. So, many homes where the owner isn't recognized as such as a fantastic story, usually the architecture jumps right in ; there's something that has survived the floor treatment. We have homes with original flagstone, original tile, you know, goes on and on. So from room to room, as we're giving the tours and highlighting these things, we can keep the audience, the visitor very interested. And that's usually very rewarding to know that these original features are still there. Peirce: Absolutely. Have you had, has there been a home that was just completely original or do they all need work at some point? Clausen: Well, we have had a few that had a remarkable amount of original features left, and that usually gets us going pretty good. Now of course, I think the thing that happens to most houses is the kitchens need updating very badly, and often the bathrooms. But we have homes where even there's been extensive remodeling, we still recognize – I'll just use Weir for example because they're so well-known – some of the weird features are cabinet treatments, maybe even the lintels on the window trim, possibly the addition of a certain shape of a breakfast nook. So, we almost always see these features survive. We haven't really had homes that were entirely gutted. We've had some pretty good luck. Peirce: That's amazing. I mean, just thinking about how homes are now and people just rip them up and then build them back up.... Clausen: They do, and some of us don't even like to watch those shows where they come into a midcentury modern home with a sledgehammer ; sometimes it's kind of creepy. Peirce: And a little upsetting, especially for someone who has been doing these kinds of tours, right? Looking at the big picture: do you feel that the tour has been successful in achieving the initial goals of what you were trying to do? Did it kind of mushroom beyond that? And if so, do you feel like there are things that you never thought were possible and things that you kind of wish you could have branched out into? Clausen: No, I think that those of us who started early on are honestly always amazed how this can sustain interest. And we're always thrilled for the feedback ; not everyone's happy on our tours, of course not. But we believe that the awareness of adobe construction and word of mouth and people wanting to see an adobe home, the inside of one, was well beyond our expectations. Absolutely. In terms of getting bigger, there's not enough of us. We think we will always have to limit our ticket sales. I mean, it'd be wonderful to run it two days. It'd be wonderful to raise more money, but there's just not enough of us. Really, I think raising people's understanding of what this construction is and what it was, and then historically its roots, you know, the adobe as construction material in California, I think we've done a pretty good job getting the message across and getting interest. Absolutely. We'd like to keep going. We hope we always have enough people and enough houses, but we think with the invitations to Carlsbad and maybe one day Rancho Santa Fe, and certainly Pauma again, Fallbrook has many adobe homes, Vista does....there are communities we still think we can keep going. Alexa Clausen discusses the process on gathering information about adobe home builds. She also mentions how they approach original homes and those that have been renovated. adobe ; architecture ; builders ; career ; original features Adobe builders ; Adobe home historical backgrounds ; Craftsman era ; Growing Adobe Home Tours 33.1192° N, 117.0864° W 17 Escondido, California 2735 Adobe Home Tours Legacy Peirce: Absolutely. My last question is, it feels like you've created something here in North County that has really kind of stood the test of time here in terms of creating something from scratch and creating something that people come back to. You have repeat customers, you have all these things. What do you hope your legacy is with Adobe Home Tours and where do you hope to see it moving forward? Clausen: Well, I think for most of us and, you know, I can't speak for everyone, but I think for most of us, the importance of having the homes preserved – this is something that's stopped in time. Of course any development is at risk, no matter what, and that the stronger we stay and the higher the appreciation is the less likely that someone will want to buy the home, and as the prices and their value increase, we feel there's a less likelihood that it would be demolished for yet a bigger investment. Although many have been. But we really, I think we'd all like to know that the core of many of these homes will remain and that they'll go another hundred years. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything about this program or anything about your career that you feel that we haven't touched on that you'd like to talk about before we start wrapping this up? Clausen: I think we covered it pretty well. And since we have a lot of programs that are a PDF on the Adobe Home Tour website, and Don keeps posting information – he's very good about answering questions people will forward to him and he'll forward to the rest of us so we can help. I think there's a lot out there now that was not available 10 years ago, so I think anyone that's interested has a check to jump on the website and dig around a little more and if needed con to contact any of us and the steering committee small, but we're out there to just keep promoting the adobe heritage. Peirce: Absolutely. And once again, that was adobehometours.com, correct? Clausen: That's correct. Yes. Peirce: Awesome. Just so just making sure we get that plug out there. Clausen: Okay. Right. Well, Jake, thank you so much. It's been great to talk to you and thanks for taking the interest. Peirce: I appreciate that, absolutely. I want to thank you very much from the bottom of my heart for taking this much time to talk about this. It's been fascinating. Alexa Clausen talks about where she hopes to see Adobe Home Tours in ten years. She also speaks on the importance of preserving homes because they allow visitors a look into the past. adobe ; appreciation ; homes ; information ; North County Legacy of Adobe Home Tours 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego Oral History Alexa Clausen is one of the founders of the Adobe Home Tours in North County San Diego, providing much of the historiography of each stop on their yearly tours. She was employed as a historian with California State Parks prior to her involvement with Adobe Home Tours. In this interview, Alexa speaks about how Adobe Home Tours started, the successes and difficulties with running a program like Adobe Home Tours, and how her background with California State Parks helped prepare her for her current role. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Jake Peirce: I&#039 ; m speaking today with Mrs. Alexa Clauson from the Adobe Home Tour -- among her many accomplishments -- and so I would like to start with just a little background information, if you don&#039 ; t mind. Where are you from? What got you to where you could start with the Adobe Home Tour? Alexa Clausen: Well, thank you. And I&#039 ; m happy to be here since we only have an hour, I&#039 ; ll try to do the mini version. &lt ; affirmative&gt ; I grew up in Riverside, California. I got my advanced degrees in San Diego, so University of San Diego undergraduate, and then master&#039 ; s degree at San Diego State. At the same time that I was studying, my master&#039 ; s degree took me seven years because I was working full-time for California State Parks. So, I have a career with state parks and essentially doing local regional statewide and contextual related history for projects with state parks. So, when I retired in 2008, we had moved to Escondido in 1993, I think. And I had some friends in the history business, Lucy Burke, who was very active in historic preservation, always nagging me: When are you going to retire? You know, join us and, and all this stuff. So finally, when I did retire, I had our son -- I had him late in in life -- so he was still in elementary school, high school. So, I wasn&#039 ; t too involved, but I did have the sense that I want to give back to the community of history because when I was working professionally without internet and all this, I was visiting people who were saving history in boxes under their beds. You know, there was some places didn&#039 ; t have historical societies ; it was just mom and pop trying to save history. So, you know, I felt like I wanted to give back, and so I started volunteering and then, when my son was at St Mary&#039 ; s in elementary school, there&#039 ; s another student. His name was Sean McCoy. Well, his father, they had a little birthday party. I think they were in fifth grade, so this might go back to maybe 2004 or 2005, and he lived in Valley Center. The house was adobe, and I was really curious, but in their study there were all these houses on craftsman architecture. I looked at Tom, who&#039 ; s just a really gregarious, hardy guy that runs a landscaping business. He&#039 ; s Cal[ifornia] Poly[technic] [State] [University] educated and in landscaping. And I&#039 ; m like, no, it&#039 ; s not. It must be his wife. &lt ; laugh&gt ; So eventually at the swim party, the kids were busy and I said, &quot ; Hey, you know, Tom who&#039 ; s collection of books here, you&#039 ; re doing craftsmen?&quot ; Well, that unleashed Tom, and he found a soulmate in the interest. And as a few years went on, he always said there, &quot ; We have to do something. I go to Pasadena to the home tours and they&#039 ; re all rooted in Green and Green Architecture, which was known for the craftsmen, but we have our own, you know, handcrafted Adobes here.&quot ; And I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; [O]kay, Tom, let&#039 ; s do a tour.&quot ; And he claims that, you know, I kept pushing him to, oh, won&#039 ; t this be fun? And so the two of us kind of started Adobe Home Tour, but we were fortunate that the director Wendy Barker at the historical society wanted to go ahead and take our little idea under her wing. They had been doing garden tours, so they were familiar with parking and talking to homeowners, so we really had a jump there and we were lucky. And of course with the insurance that the Escondido History Center was all behind us. And our very first brochure was a front-to-back 8.5&quot ; x11&quot ; piece of paper off a copier, and that&#039 ; s kind of where it started. Peirce: Well, you have to start somewhere, right? Clausen: Yeah. It&#039 ; s funny, and of course I was thinking, &quot ; [O]h, he&#039 ; ll get over it.&quot ; You know, this is one year we had maybe 60 people come and it was word of mouth, mainly his friends and the historical society, people and friends of the homeowners, so it was really grassroots or mom and pop, whatever you want to call it. And our last tour we sold out at 500 tickets. Peirce: Wow. Clausen: Yeah. So that was the route. I came here through my training, I don&#039 ; t own an adobe home and it was really a feeling to give back to history essentially. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. Going back to your previous stops in your career with the California State Parks, was this something that was kind of in the same realm of what you were doing? Looking at architecture and looking at stuff like that and giving tours, or did you do something different while you were there? Clausen: You know, it really wasn&#039 ; t. The historic preservation and the architecture was handled mainly by specialists, and a lot of that was rooted in the state office of historic preservation, which was like a cousin branch of State Parks and the very highly trained historians specializing in architecture. So, I was really weak and had to do a catch up self-trained. All of my projects were budget driven. For example, if they, maybe the volunteers of the Rangers wanted to do a new booklet for a visitor center and it had a historical element in it, they would budget for hours for that. Or if there&#039 ; s a general plan, they needed a historian to do the cultural. So a lot of my jobs were just skipping around and providing research and history for whatever was budgeted and needed. And generally, if there was like an architectural survey, they were contracted out by specialist, or the state office would contract. So, during my career, for example, they did a thematic statewide survey of the Civilian Conservation Corps buildings that were still in state parks. Now they took their cue from the feds who were doing a survey in national parks and in the forest service, but again, that was handled by specialists. So, you know, while we would exchange, read material, go to the same conferences, it is a specialty that I&#039 ; m probably not the best at, but I do provide that research for Adobe Home Tour. So, it was a different kind of specialty, yeah. Peirce: Absolutely. It sounds more like you were -- in your role with the state parks -- you were more of a jack of all trades rather than a master of specifically architecture in that field. Clausen: Oh, absolutely, and in time they umbrellaed all that under cultural resources management and it was the archeologist and the historians and sometimes the landscape architects depending on the project. Peirce: Absolutely. Given that Tom seemed to be your partner in crime in the beginning of this adventure, --and he seemed to have more of the specific knowledge when it came to the adobe tours, based on what you&#039 ; re saying -- what would you say that was your biggest contribution to the beginning of it? Was it the organization? Was it your specific knowledge of how to provide background information? What would you say was your biggest contribution in the beginning? Clausen: Well, actually, I think Tom felt like I was just the cheerleader. &lt ; laugh&gt ; But, you know, I think it helped Tom have the confidence. With his career running a landscape business, he wasn&#039 ; t as free to do some things, and I think he always saw me as a little bit of the conduit to the history community. He&#039 ; s second generation -- grew up in Escondido through his business and his family -- they know every nook and cranny in the city, but Tom I think felt like I was the person that can talk to the historical society and get that connection. And then when it came to maybe talking to some families about the history of their homes -- although Wendy did a lot of it in the beginning -- in time, I took over all of that as eventually she took another job, but, you know, they had the historical society to run. I think Tom just really needed someone who talked a little more of the language to keep connected with the historical society and the history side of it. That&#039 ; s my take, if you ever tape Tom, maybe he&#039 ; ll have a different, &lt ; laugh&gt ; a different take on it. Peirce: &lt ; laugh&gt ; No, that&#039 ; s absolutely fair. That takes me into something else I kind of wanted to explore with you if don&#039 ; t mind. I&#039 ; m very interested in how you and Wendy and Tom and everybody else who was involved -- especially in the beginning -- how you managed to convince people to take part in this project. Because like you said, a lot of these people, these aren&#039 ; t just like &quot ; Oh, I own this random home that is just sitting out here for display.&quot ; This is where people live and work and raise their families. How did you manage to convince people to take part in what you were trying to achieve? Especially in the beginning. Clausen: You know, I haven&#039 ; t thought about it. Some of it was Tom&#039 ; s personal contacts and he knows people who know people and he knocked on doors, and then Wendy at the historical society, they also knew people who had adobe homes and was literally making lists, like, &quot ; Should we call this one? Should we call that one?&quot ; but I have to wonder now that you brought it up if the timing was right. Garden tours were becoming very popular at the time. They were fundraisers for not just historical societies, but you know, maybe natural garden clubs. I think garden clubs maybe had a longer history of that, but history house tours were becoming popular at the time. I think a lot of that starts going backwards to the US bicentennial, where historic preservation was taking off, and I have to wonder if people who buy adobe homes sort of needed a validation. Recently he had a potluck, and I ran into a lady who said, &quot ; My friends tell me you&#039 ; re crazy to have bought this home. You know, why would you live in this mud home?&quot ; &lt ; laugh&gt ; so maybe there&#039 ; s just a little twinkle of wanting the validation. You know, I&#039 ; m really taking a guess at this ; I hadn&#039 ; t really thought about it. But I do think people had the confidence --the historical society had been doing an annual home tour and then the old neighborhood in downtown Escondido, they started doing a Mother&#039 ; s Day home tour -- so the idea of a home tour maybe wasn&#039 ; t as foreign had we been maybe one of the first to ever do this in Escondido. I think those two projects really made people aware and it wasn&#039 ; t just so scary that other people were opening their houses. In the old neighborhood after COVID, it&#039 ; ll be the first time in a few years, and they will do another Mother&#039 ; s Day home tour, and I think they&#039 ; re on their like 25th anniversary. And the historical society, they partnered with that, so they had the experience also and word of mouth that this isn&#039 ; t kind of some creepy people knocking on the door saying, &quot ; Whoa, you know, what you can do is clean up your house and let people in.&quot ; So, I really didn&#039 ; t think about it and it&#039 ; s not scientific by any manner, but I think there is an opening and I find that Adobe Home Tours love the validation. They love to know that other people, once they&#039 ; ve seen their house, they get it. They really think it&#039 ; s something special. That&#039 ; s just my take on it. Peirce: Absolutely. I mean, that makes complete sense. One question I did have as well: was there any sort of impetus? Was this just organic? You just happened to bring this up and it just kind of grew up? Or was there any sort of given that some people want that validation, right? A lot of people may not want to live in this kind of home. Was there any sort of preservation or were these houses being torn down or was there any sort of event like that that was kind of like, &quot ; Man, maybe we should foster some sort of appreciation within the region to make sure that we keep this history alive a little bit.&quot ; ? Clausen: You know, I think that became one of our causes or mantras or whatever is as we backed into this -- like just a couple of mom and pop &lt ; laugh&gt ; people with no experience but some dumb luck and some decent connections -- is that as these homes aged, and of course, in the history of a lot of the homes, the midcentury, the builders and the real estate developers, they picked out, we call it &#039 ; cherry picked&#039 ; the lots. You could go into orange groves and carve out incredible views -- and many of the adobe homes have incredible views -- and I believe that before property values really started to skyrocket that they were at risk because once you have an incredible view, then you know, we came the era of McMansions. This is happening in cities everywhere: Los Angeles and San Francisco are some of the worst cases where the beautiful Spanish revival homes are gone. They&#039 ; re bulldozed for these -- you know, it&#039 ; s probably not polite to call McMansions ; someone coined that phrase for overbloated size of houses with great views. I think we all, the core of us that worked on this had the feeling that they were at risk. The other timing of this is many homes are not eligible for Mills Act and historic preservation review unless they&#039 ; ve reached 50 years old. Now, many of the adobes that were in the midcentury revival, the boom that started with the edges of Longview Acres and up and down here in the Via Rancho Parkway area around Felicita Park, Adobe homes were starting to be built in the late forties and into the fifties. If the home had not reached 50 years old, it was not eligible for review as a candidate for a higher level of putting out on a register for review and protection. There&#039 ; s no guarantee, but I think that the age started working for us as these homes were turning fifty and the appreciation with the old neighborhood and appreciation everywhere was starting to grow and the concern for being bulldozed. So it&#039 ; s almost like you had a little bit of a perfect storm coming in for the recognition of an adobe home, and they did stop construction by state law in the eighties. So, then another one of our &quot ; Gee, you, you&#039 ; re not going to see these again. You have a chance to really see something special.&quot ; Peirce: Was there a reason that they stopped the construction at that point? Was it just not feasible for like a, what is it, like an earthquake code or something like that? Clausen: Well, I talked to several builders. George Patterson when he was living and then Mike Burton, whose father and grandfather -- Hiram Smith his grandfather and then Don Burton his father -- they had no concerns about earthquakes. They were using a lot of rebar and the adobe block by that time had added a petroleum-based product developed in the late thirties and through the war time, so adobe block now was solid construction. I was told it was all about thermal and insulation. Both builders said it was an argument with the state of California with, I don&#039 ; t know, engineering approval people that went down to the county, that an adobe will take in thermal heating, you know, it takes three days to warm up and, you know, on and on, and they refused to approve adobe construction based on that. The other thing the builder said is that the labor became too costly ; you had labor, construction workers still willing up to a certain time to take and build these, you know, carry these blocks and do this kind of labor. It was easier to get a job somewhere else, and it didn&#039 ; t, you know, literally break your back. So between the rise of cost of labor -- and then in Escondido, the adobe block yard went out of business ; the blocks now had to be shipped from Fresno or elsewhere -- and it became just too costly to build. So, it was all those things. Peirce: Yeah. That makes sense. You know, it tends to go when things become cost prohibitive, it definitely will stop people in their tracks and in terms of doing that kind of stuff. Clausen: Right. So that ended adobe construction in California, because of course there still is adobe construction in New Mexico, Arizona, and globally, for that matter, you know, worldwide. The adobe is still a popular way to build a cheap way if you have the labor. Peirce: Yeah, absolutely. Seeing that this isn&#039 ; t the only place where Adobe houses were built -- and are built even to this day -- as you guys kind of built this program and as it continued to grow, was there any sort of view of trying to expand to a larger area or working with other tours if they existed in places like New Mexico, to try and collaborate in any way? Or was this a very grassroots, &quot ; We&#039 ; re sticking where we are and just kind of making this grow naturally where it is?&quot ; Clausen: Well, I think we would&#039 ; ve loved to become a bigger, wider organization, but it all comes down to volunteers. And as you know, a lot of this, unless you&#039 ; re a paid staff putting on something like this-- Although we were thrilled: we had a tour in Pauma Valley a few years ago, we&#039 ; ve been invited to work with Valley Center Historical Society ; there&#039 ; s a number of adobes there. We were also invited through Dominic Calarco who supervises the park system in Carlsbad ; they would like to feature Leo Carillo and find some adobe homeowners there. So, we do have an interest, very North County interested people, and we&#039 ; d like to do that, and then it keeps it from being boring Escondido ; not boring, but, you know, you do sort of run out of homes or people that are willing. We do have bigger interest, and we know that people have traveled from Los Angeles and from other places to come and see the homes and be on the tour. In an ideal world? Yeah, wouldn&#039 ; t it be neat to have this grand old, famous tour? You know, some cities do -- the Palm Springs mid-century modern tour is just crazy famous, the Pasadena tours are -- but we&#039 ; re restricted now by just a small group of volunteers. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, it can be difficult even with that outside interest when you don&#039 ; t have the facility to make it happen, whether it&#039 ; s personnel or whatever. There&#039 ; s always a friction, there&#039 ; s always that rub that kind of keeps you from doing more, even if there&#039 ; s the interest. Did you take anything from other tours? Did you learn from them? Or did you go, &quot ; We want to do something different. We want to kind of stick to our own program here?&quot ; Clausen: You know, the way I think this evolved, with a number of our Adobe homeowners haved jumped in after their home was on the tour to take a role and to help out. And so, for example, our current webmaster, Don, he took over the website. Intense interest in adobe, and really likes to post a lot of stuff, even adobe homes for sale. And then we had a lady -- Mary Del May -- she had taken over for Wendy in 2015 I want to say, I&#039 ; ll have to look it up, and professionalized it, and Tom ; all of them have been on other home tours. So, I think what they brought to the table was things they liked, like, &quot ; Gee, you know, it was nice when we had a booklet, a full booklet and, you know, we could cut costs by having sponsor pages. That&#039 ; ll help the printing if we do a bigger booklet.&quot ; So, our homeowners who jumped in, I think they did bring experience from things they liked going on other tours. Then as we planned this, I think some things from other tours come in like don&#039 ; t let people stand too long. &quot ; Oh, we were in Tucson. We had to wait 45 minutes, but they sold cocktails.&quot ; &lt ; laugh&gt ; We&#039 ; re like, oh, we can&#039 ; t sell cocktails, but you know, we do have these, yeah. I think that everyone who has participated brings what they like, and they don&#039 ; t like, suggestions, they work, they don&#039 ; t, we&#039 ; ve tried some things. So yeah, I&#039 ; d say that we have benefited from other tours. Peirce: And it also sounds like you&#039 ; ve benefited from, as you&#039 ; ve done this program, collaborating with some of the people that have owned these homes, right? Like you said earlier-- Clausen: Oh, absolutely. Peirce: It sounds like that&#039 ; s really been honestly, and correct me if I&#039 ; m wrong, kind of the heart of the program as it&#039 ; s moved forward. Clausen: It really was helpful because in order to invite and ask people &quot ; Would you have your home on the tour?&quot ; They&#039 ; re shaking in their boots and to have other homeowners say, look, here&#039 ; s some information, which they&#039 ; ve developed a little &quot ; Hello, homeowner, potential homeowner. This is what we did, little hit lists of this is what happens.&quot ; And then we also developed a security docent guide and docent stations. And that came out of the feedback from the homeowners to pace our volunteers throughout the home and allow people not to wander through on their own, but in groups as a group tour. And a lot of this came from the feedback of the homeowners wanting a little more security, a little more confidence, and most of the kind of tips for, &quot ; Hey, do you want to be on our tour,&quot ; came from the other homeowners. Absolutely. You know, lessons learned or could have, should have, would have. It&#039 ; s always a little growing thing. I think you&#039 ; re right. I think that this definitely comes from within. Peirce: Absolutely, and that&#039 ; s incredible, right? To really get that kind of support from people who see what the benefit is of highlighting this stuff, and just kind of doing that because it not only gets people to participate, but it brings their energy and their enthusiasm along with it. Speaking of enthusiasm, I know that there has been concern in some sectors of historians who are worried about people not being interested in history, people being ignorant of history. What efforts, if any, do you guys have to put in to get people interested in this part of history? Was there any sort of education that you had to put out? Did you have to teach people about this stuff? Did you find any struggles in getting people to come at any point? Or was this something that kind of once people heard about it, they were like &quot ; I&#039 ; d like to learn more about that&quot ; or did you fight any struggles? Clausen: You know, we&#039 ; re always amazed at how easy this comes. I think being in the San Diego drivable region, that we&#039 ; re lucky because we are a county where we can still on a Sunday, get somewhere without a lot of trouble, and we do have the support of....like I mentioned, a lot of other historical societies have done garden tours, home tours, many cities have. And so people that love it, we find from our ticket holders, are a very strange combination with flat out &quot ; looky loos&quot ; : people that want to remodel their kitchen and they want to see others, as realtors are being a little more cautious about appointments and who comes in -- for good reason, not to waste their time and security. So we have the people that just love to see other people&#039 ; s homes, and then we have just very hardcore interested -- either mid-century modern architecture, maybe even students of architecture, and hobbyists -- they are there for the architecture. We have a pretty neat little group of people interested in the garden now. Not every home is going to have a fancy garden -- not by any means -- but they&#039 ; re there primarily to see the garden and enjoy the garden. And then we do have history buffs ; like that&#039 ; s what I&#039 ; m just labeling people that love the history. Then year by year, we&#039 ; ve tried to pick a theme. LIke last year: &quot ; The Romance of the Rancho&quot ; where we just call it out that maybe some of this is California fantasy, you know, and the places were carved out of orange groves, they&#039 ; re close to the earth. In some cases, the adobe block was made right there, right on the acreage that was formed and bulldozed, lot of use of heavy beams, sort of that romance of the Rancho. So we&#039 ; ve brought that up. In Pauma, we had a chance to talk about the Luiseños building the Pauma mission. We had that be one of our stops and made sure that we arranged to include that. A lot of people told us, &quot ; You know, we&#039 ; ve always heard about Pauma Mission and we&#039 ; ve never gone. It was a chance to go out there.&quot ; Um, so we always get a very different mix, but always a mix of people. The strong elements that we always bask in is the people interested in the architecture, and of course, in the history. But I think some of this is people come along, they will read our booklet or the docents will tell them something and we feel there&#039 ; s an appreciation for the historic preservation that leaves every tour. Peirce: Absolutely. It&#039 ; s fascinating, right? You really have to find your niche and it sounds like this program really has found it in just a wide spectrum of people who are trying to see what you guys are displaying out there. You brought up how not every home has a garden or anything like that. Is there any sort of prerequisite to being on a tour for any of these houses or is it literally just, &quot ; Hey, you&#039 ; re an adobe house, you can be on it.&quot ; Are you a little choosy? How does that specifically work where you decide what goes on each tour? Clausen: We do have some levels. We&#039 ; ve had some very simple, honest homes and then we&#039 ; ve had some just outrageously beautiful homes from adobe. In some cases we&#039 ; ve had to turn people down because in the times they were built the driveways and the parking are impossible. There still are a lot of niches around the Escondido area where they were carved out of an old orange or avocado grove and the parking and the in and out is just out of the question. So that&#039 ; s always a consideration, although we&#039 ; ve had some pretty narrow tight squeezes. Some homes, once we&#039 ; ve talked to the homeowners, they say, you know, we&#039 ; re really not ready. We would like our home to be, uh, a little closer to ready. They often bought the adobe as a fixer upper, but as everyone knows, it takes time and money and planning, and we&#039 ; ve had homeowners who&#039 ; ve come back and say, you know, now we&#039 ; re ready. In some cases, we had to turn down people because they were just way too out of the way. I&#039 ; ll give you an example: last tour we had on the edge of Rancho Santa Fe the Osuna adobe, and then a home in Del Dios and then across Escondido, just behind the mall, two homes in that general area -- that were drivable. I think we had a house offer way on Deer Springs Road. And so John -- our webmaster -- sometimes he would take and calculate the mileage, and then if you&#039 ; re 25 minutes one way and the only home out there, we would think that the homeowner would get gypped, you know, people would just say &quot ; Let&#039 ; s just go get lunch. We won&#039 ; t drive out there.&quot ; So we&#039 ; ve tried to save some of the names and the addresses, so we could do a closer cluster of homes and hopefully we haven&#039 ; t missed out on anyone yet, and hanging onto names lets us be able to do that. We&#039 ; ve had people who, as they&#039 ; ve moved forward, say we just can&#039 ; t do this, you know, family circumstances or everyone just couldn&#039 ; t get on board. You know, a lot of things we expect could happen. We&#039 ; ve gotten two thirds of the way and we&#039 ; ve had people bail for very legitimate, understandable reasons. In a few cases, we&#039 ; ve had previous homes on the tour again. We&#039 ; ve had a few homes in that circumstance where an owner stepped up and a lot of times they&#039 ; ve made changes. They&#039 ; ve learned more about their home and it was enough years for our ticket holders. We have a lot of new ticket holders, so they&#039 ; re not saying, oh, we just saw that home. So yeah, I think there&#039 ; s been a combination of how we get there when the doors open. Peirce: Absolutely. So the individual houses, are the owners responsible for the histography of the tour for those places? Do you guys assist? How does that collaboration work? Clausen: In the last five years, I think I&#039 ; ve done the majority of the history. In a lot of cases though, with new owners, sometimes we&#039 ; ve gotten really lucky. They&#039 ; re walking their dog, they run into an old timer from the neighborhood, you know, someone who has lived there 40 years, and they&#039 ; d come back as we&#039 ; re developing the history of their home, or they&#039 ; d get a lead: a phone number of someone who knew who still own the home. So we&#039 ; ve had a combination. I&#039 ; d say maybe I do easily 70 to 75% of the research, and then 25% comes in from a lot of odd places and on occasion the homeowner themselves. So yeah, I think I&#039 ; ve been doing most of it. For the internal side of it, the docent guide, then we lean on the homeowner for their remodel or what they were told about the remodel. If they have a newer kitchen maybe put in in the late eighties -- they were told about it by the realtor -- the docent on the kitchen stop will let people know what they&#039 ; re looking at. I&#039 ; d say I&#039 ; ve done a good portion of the research. Peirce: Awesome. Has that been a struggle as well, given that some of these houses - I don&#039 ; t wanna say they&#039 ; re not important, right? They are important, they&#039 ; re historical in their own way. But it&#039 ; s not like Greta Garbo lived there ; they&#039 ; re just regular homes in Escondido. Has that been difficult to gather that information? Clausen: You know, I&#039 ; ve been stuck on homes for variety of reasons. Sometimes what happens is, let&#039 ; s say the homeowner had the adobe built for themselves and they worked the rest of their career at a conveyor belt as an engineer and retired, and perhaps their spouse was a schoolteacher and, you know, very wonderful everyday people. When we actually go look at the house, we generally will start finding jewels on some of the architecture. I think we&#039 ; ve been pretty fortunate to have builders who have included architecture to keep the story going. This will be the treatment of the open beams or the fireplaces. Very often, we&#039 ; ve had wonderful surviving fireplaces that were not remodeled ; they&#039 ; re still there. We&#039 ; ve had homes where the windows were yet not removed ; they were still the old aluminum encasement crank windows, really neat, like ribbon style. It would even be the placement of arches, you know, opening the arch of one room into the next. The unbelievable plate glass windows from floor to ceiling, capturing a style that is brought in from the craftsman era -- Cliff May, who has been considered the father of the ranch house style that became mid-century and popularized -- how they took the sense of bringing the outdoor to the edge of the indoor. The adobe builders in the mid-century -- we&#039 ; ve found the Weir brothers and others -- they will do that plate glass window with the view, right from the bottom, right to the edge of the eaves with phenomenal views, taking advantage and placing the home on that view. Without a doubt, the architecture will jump in and take over. Funky chimney treatments, little touches like a little hut, an opening to put in firewood, right by the fireplace treatment of the mantle or the hearth. Maybe there&#039 ; s some amber inserted glass that&#039 ; s still from the original ; once in a while, even the lighting fixtures. So, many homes where the owner isn&#039 ; t recognized as such as a fantastic story, usually the architecture jumps right in ; there&#039 ; s something that has survived the floor treatment. We have homes with original flagstone, original tile, you know, goes on and on. So from room to room, as we&#039 ; re giving the tours and highlighting these things, we can keep the audience, the visitor very interested. And that&#039 ; s usually very rewarding to know that these original features are still there. Peirce: Absolutely. Have you had, has there been a home that was just completely original or do they all need work at some point? Clausen: Well, we have had a few that had a remarkable amount of original features left, and that usually gets us going pretty good. Now of course, I think the thing that happens to most houses is the kitchens need updating very badly, and often the bathrooms. But we have homes where even there&#039 ; s been extensive remodeling, we still recognize -- I&#039 ; ll just use Weir for example because they&#039 ; re so well-known -- some of the weird features are cabinet treatments, maybe even the lintels on the window trim, possibly the addition of a certain shape of a breakfast nook. So, we almost always see these features survive. We haven&#039 ; t really had homes that were entirely gutted. We&#039 ; ve had some pretty good luck. Peirce: That&#039 ; s amazing. I mean, just thinking about how homes are now and people just rip them up and then build them back up.... Clausen: They do, and some of us don&#039 ; t even like to watch those shows where they come into a midcentury modern home with a sledgehammer ; sometimes it&#039 ; s kind of creepy. Peirce: And a little upsetting, especially for someone who has been doing these kinds of tours, right? Looking at the big picture: do you feel that the tour has been successful in achieving the initial goals of what you were trying to do? Did it kind of mushroom beyond that? And if so, do you feel like there are things that you never thought were possible and things that you kind of wish you could have branched out into? Clausen: No, I think that those of us who started early on are honestly always amazed how this can sustain interest. And we&#039 ; re always thrilled for the feedback ; not everyone&#039 ; s happy on our tours, of course not. But we believe that the awareness of adobe construction and word of mouth and people wanting to see an adobe home, the inside of one, was well beyond our expectations. Absolutely. In terms of getting bigger, there&#039 ; s not enough of us. We think we will always have to limit our ticket sales. I mean, it&#039 ; d be wonderful to run it two days. It&#039 ; d be wonderful to raise more money, but there&#039 ; s just not enough of us. Really, I think raising people&#039 ; s understanding of what this construction is and what it was, and then historically its roots, you know, the adobe as construction material in California, I think we&#039 ; ve done a pretty good job getting the message across and getting interest. Absolutely. We&#039 ; d like to keep going. We hope we always have enough people and enough houses, but we think with the invitations to Carlsbad and maybe one day Rancho Santa Fe, and certainly Pauma again, Fallbrook has many adobe homes, Vista does....there are communities we still think we can keep going. Peirce: Absolutely. My last question is, it feels like you&#039 ; ve created something here in North County that has really kind of stood the test of time here in terms of creating something from scratch and creating something that people come back to. You have repeat customers, you have all these things. What do you hope your legacy is with Adobe Home Tours and where do you hope to see it moving forward? Clausen: Well, I think for most of us and, you know, I can&#039 ; t speak for everyone, but I think for most of us, the importance of having the homes preserved -- this is something that&#039 ; s stopped in time. Of course any development is at risk, no matter what, and that the stronger we stay and the higher the appreciation is the less likely that someone will want to buy the home, and as the prices and their value increase, we feel there&#039 ; s a less likelihood that it would be demolished for yet a bigger investment. Although many have been. But we really, I think we&#039 ; d all like to know that the core of many of these homes will remain and that they&#039 ; ll go another hundred years. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything about this program or anything about your career that you feel that we haven&#039 ; t touched on that you&#039 ; d like to talk about before we start wrapping this up? Clausen: I think we covered it pretty well. And since we have a lot of programs that are a PDF on the Adobe Home Tour website, and Don keeps posting information -- he&#039 ; s very good about answering questions people will forward to him and he&#039 ; ll forward to the rest of us so we can help. I think there&#039 ; s a lot out there now that was not available 10 years ago, so I think anyone that&#039 ; s interested has a check to jump on the website and dig around a little more and if needed con to contact any of us and the steering committee small, but we&#039 ; re out there to just keep promoting the adobe heritage. Peirce: Absolutely. And once again, that was adobehometours.com, correct? Clausen: That&#039 ; s correct. Yes. Peirce: Awesome. Just so just making sure we get that plug out there. Clausen: Okay. Right. Well, Jake, thank you so much. It&#039 ; s been great to talk to you and thanks for taking the interest. Peirce: I appreciate that, absolutely. I want to thank you very much from the bottom of my heart for taking this much time to talk about this. It&#039 ; s been fascinating. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ClausenAlexa_PeirceJake_2022-04-12.xml ClausenAlexa_PeirceJake_2022-04-12.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clausen, Alexa. Interview April 12, 2022 Description An account of the resource Alexa Clausen is one of the founders of the Adobe Home Tours in North County San Diego, providing much of the historiography of each stop on their yearly tours. She was employed as a historian with California State Parks prior to her involvement with Adobe Home Tours. In this interview, Alexa speaks about how Adobe Home Tours started, the successes and difficulties with running a program like Adobe Home Tours, and how her background with California State Parks helped prepare her for her current role. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-15 Subject The topic of the resource Adobe houses Historic buildings -- Conservation and restoration. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-12 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Alexa Clausen Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alexa Clausen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jacob Peirce Community history History Department internship Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/c59f8053d23c1136aee09f68020277ec.pdf 6cb14bd4ab0132b818c6e2422620a6fc PDF Text Text ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Jake Peirce: I'm speaking today with Mrs. Alexa Clauson from the Adobe Home Tour – among her many accomplishments – and so I would like to start with just a little background information, if you don't mind. Where are you from? What got you to where you could start with the Adobe Home Tour? Alexa Clausen: Well, thank you. And I'm happy to be here since we only have an hour, I'll try to do the mini version. <affirmative> I grew up in Riverside, California. I got my advanced degrees in San Diego, so University of San Diego undergraduate, and then master's degree at San Diego State. At the same time that I was studying, my master's degree took me seven years because I was working full-time for California State Parks. So, I have a career with state parks and essentially doing local regional statewide and contextual related history for projects with state parks. So, when I retired in 2008, we had moved to Escondido in 1993, I think. And I had some friends in the history business, Lucy Burke, who was very active in historic preservation, always nagging me: When are you going to retire? You know, join us and, and all this stuff. So finally, when I did retire, I had our son – I had him late in in life – so he was still in elementary school, high school. So, I wasn't too involved, but I did have the sense that I want to give back to the community of history because when I was working professionally without internet and all this, I was visiting people who were saving history in boxes under their beds. You know, there was some places didn't have historical societies; it was just mom and pop trying to save history. So, you know, I felt like I wanted to give back, and so I started volunteering and then, when my son was at St Mary's in elementary school, there's another student. His name was Sean McCoy. Well, his father, they had a little birthday party. I think they were in fifth grade, so this might go back to maybe 2004 or 2005, and he lived in Valley Center. The house was adobe, and I was really curious, but in their study there were all these houses on craftsman architecture. I looked at Tom, who's just a really gregarious, hardy guy that runs a landscaping business. He's Cal[ifornia] Poly[technic] [State] [University] educated and in landscaping. And I'm like, no, it's not. It must be his wife. <laugh> So eventually at the swim party, the kids were busy and I said, “Hey, you know, Tom who's collection of books here, you're doing craftsmen?” Well, that unleashed Tom, and he found a soulmate in the interest. And as a few years went on, he always said there, “We have to do something. I go to Pasadena to the home tours and they're all rooted in Green and Green Architecture, which was known for the craftsmen, but we have our own, you know, handcrafted Adobes here.” And I'm like, “[O]kay, Tom, let's do a tour.” And he claims that, you know, I kept pushing him to, oh, won't this be fun? And so the two of us kind of started Adobe Home Tour, but we were fortunate that the director Wendy Barker at the historical society wanted to go ahead and take our little idea under her wing. They had been doing garden tours, so they were familiar with parking and talking to homeowners, so we really had a jump there and we were lucky. And of course with the insurance that the Escondido History Center was all behind us. And our very first brochure was a front-to-back 8.5”x11” piece of paper off a copier, and that's kind of where it started. Peirce: Well, you have to start somewhere, right? Clausen: Yeah. It's funny, and of course I was thinking, “[O]h, he'll get over it.” You know, this is one year we had maybe 60 people come and it was word of mouth, mainly his friends and the historical society, people and friends of the homeowners, so it was really grassroots or mom and pop, whatever you want to call it. And our last tour we sold out at 500 tickets. Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 1 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Peirce: Wow. Clausen: Yeah. So that was the route. I came here through my training, I don't own an adobe home and it was really a feeling to give back to history essentially. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. Going back to your previous stops in your career with the California State Parks, was this something that was kind of in the same realm of what you were doing? Looking at architecture and looking at stuff like that and giving tours, or did you do something different while you were there? Clausen: You know, it really wasn't. The historic preservation and the architecture was handled mainly by specialists, and a lot of that was rooted in the state office of historic preservation, which was like a cousin branch of State Parks and the very highly trained historians specializing in architecture. So, I was really weak and had to do a catch up self-trained. All of my projects were budget driven. For example, if they, maybe the volunteers of the Rangers wanted to do a new booklet for a visitor center and it had a historical element in it, they would budget for hours for that. Or if there's a general plan, they needed a historian to do the cultural. So a lot of my jobs were just skipping around and providing research and history for whatever was budgeted and needed. And generally, if there was like an architectural survey, they were contracted out by specialist, or the state office would contract. So, during my career, for example, they did a thematic statewide survey of the Civilian Conservation Corps buildings that were still in state parks. Now they took their cue from the feds who were doing a survey in national parks and in the forest service, but again, that was handled by specialists. So, you know, while we would exchange, read material, go to the same conferences, it is a specialty that I'm probably not the best at, but I do provide that research for Adobe Home Tour. So, it was a different kind of specialty, yeah. Peirce: Absolutely. It sounds more like you were – in your role with the state parks – you were more of a jack of all trades rather than a master of specifically architecture in that field. Clausen: Oh, absolutely, and in time they umbrellaed all that under cultural resources management and it was the archeologist and the historians and sometimes the landscape architects depending on the project. Peirce: Absolutely. Given that Tom seemed to be your partner in crime in the beginning of this adventure, –and he seemed to have more of the specific knowledge when it came to the adobe tours, based on what you're saying – what would you say that was your biggest contribution to the beginning of it? Was it the organization? Was it your specific knowledge of how to provide background information? What would you say was your biggest contribution in the beginning? Clausen: Well, actually, I think Tom felt like I was just the cheerleader. <laugh> But, you know, I think it helped Tom have the confidence. With his career running a landscape business, he wasn't as free to do some Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 2 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 things, and I think he always saw me as a little bit of the conduit to the history community. He's second generation – grew up in Escondido through his business and his family – they know every nook and cranny in the city, but Tom I think felt like I was the person that can talk to the historical society and get that connection. And then when it came to maybe talking to some families about the history of their homes – although Wendy did a lot of it in the beginning – in time, I took over all of that as eventually she took another job, but, you know, they had the historical society to run. I think Tom just really needed someone who talked a little more of the language to keep connected with the historical society and the history side of it. That's my take, if you ever tape Tom, maybe he'll have a different, <laugh> a different take on it. Peirce: <laugh> No, that's absolutely fair. That takes me into something else I kind of wanted to explore with you if don't mind. I'm very interested in how you and Wendy and Tom and everybody else who was involved – especially in the beginning – how you managed to convince people to take part in this project. Because like you said, a lot of these people, these aren't just like “Oh, I own this random home that is just sitting out here for display.” This is where people live and work and raise their families. How did you manage to convince people to take part in what you were trying to achieve? Especially in the beginning. Clausen: You know, I haven't thought about it. Some of it was Tom's personal contacts and he knows people who know people and he knocked on doors, and then Wendy at the historical society, they also knew people who had adobe homes and was literally making lists, like, “Should we call this one? Should we call that one?” but I have to wonder now that you brought it up if the timing was right. Garden tours were becoming very popular at the time. They were fundraisers for not just historical societies, but you know, maybe natural garden clubs. I think garden clubs maybe had a longer history of that, but history house tours were becoming popular at the time. I think a lot of that starts going backwards to the US bicentennial, where historic preservation was taking off, and I have to wonder if people who buy adobe homes sort of needed a validation. Recently he had a potluck, and I ran into a lady who said, “My friends tell me you're crazy to have bought this home. You know, why would you live in this mud home?” <laugh> so maybe there's just a little twinkle of wanting the validation. You know, I'm really taking a guess at this; I hadn't really thought about it. But I do think people had the confidence –the historical society had been doing an annual home tour and then the old neighborhood in downtown Escondido, they started doing a Mother's Day home tour – so the idea of a home tour maybe wasn't as foreign had we been maybe one of the first to ever do this in Escondido. I think those two projects really made people aware and it wasn't just so scary that other people were opening their houses. In the old neighborhood after COVID, it'll be the first time in a few years, and they will do another Mother's Day home tour, and I think they're on their like 25th anniversary. And the historical society, they partnered with that, so they had the experience also and word of mouth that this isn't kind of some creepy people knocking on the door saying, “Whoa, you know, what you can do is clean up your house and let people in.” So, I really didn't think about it and it's not scientific by any manner, but I think there is an opening and I find that Adobe Home Tours love the validation. They love to know that other people, once they've seen their house, they get it. They really think it's something special. That's just my take on it. Peirce: Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 3 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Absolutely. I mean, that makes complete sense. One question I did have as well: was there any sort of impetus? Was this just organic? You just happened to bring this up and it just kind of grew up? Or was there any sort of given that some people want that validation, right? A lot of people may not want to live in this kind of home. Was there any sort of preservation or were these houses being torn down or was there any sort of event like that that was kind of like, “Man, maybe we should foster some sort of appreciation within the region to make sure that we keep this history alive a little bit.”? Clausen: You know, I think that became one of our causes or mantras or whatever is as we backed into this – like just a couple of mom and pop <laugh> people with no experience but some dumb luck and some decent connections – is that as these homes aged, and of course, in the history of a lot of the homes, the midcentury, the builders and the real estate developers, they picked out, we call it ‘cherry picked’ the lots. You could go into orange groves and carve out incredible views – and many of the adobe homes have incredible views – and I believe that before property values really started to skyrocket that they were at risk because once you have an incredible view, then you know, we came the era of McMansions. This is happening in cities everywhere: Los Angeles and San Francisco are some of the worst cases where the beautiful Spanish revival homes are gone. They're bulldozed for these – you know, it's probably not polite to call McMansions; someone coined that phrase for overbloated size of houses with great views. I think we all, the core of us that worked on this had the feeling that they were at risk. The other timing of this is many homes are not eligible for Mills Act and historic preservation review unless they've reached 50 years old. Now, many of the adobes that were in the midcentury revival, the boom that started with the edges of Longview Acres and up and down here in the Via Rancho Parkway area around Felicita Park, Adobe homes were starting to be built in the late forties and into the fifties. If the home had not reached 50 years old, it was not eligible for review as a candidate for a higher level of putting out on a register for review and protection. There's no guarantee, but I think that the age started working for us as these homes were turning fifty and the appreciation with the old neighborhood and appreciation everywhere was starting to grow and the concern for being bulldozed. So it's almost like you had a little bit of a perfect storm coming in for the recognition of an adobe home, and they did stop construction by state law in the eighties. So, then another one of our “Gee, you, you're not going to see these again. You have a chance to really see something special.” Peirce: Was there a reason that they stopped the construction at that point? Was it just not feasible for like a, what is it, like an earthquake code or something like that? Clausen: Well, I talked to several builders. George Patterson when he was living and then Mike Burton, whose father and grandfather – Hiram Smith his grandfather and then Don Burton his father – they had no concerns about earthquakes. They were using a lot of rebar and the adobe block by that time had added a petroleum-based product developed in the late thirties and through the war time, so adobe block now was solid construction. I was told it was all about thermal and insulation. Both builders said it was an argument with the state of California with, I don't know, engineering approval people that went down to the county, that an adobe will take in thermal heating, you know, it takes three days to warm up and, you know, on and on, and they refused to approve adobe construction based on that. The other thing the builder said is that the labor became too costly; you had labor, construction workers still willing up to a certain time to take and build these, you know, carry these blocks and do this kind of labor. It was Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 4 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 easier to get a job somewhere else, and it didn't, you know, literally break your back. So between the rise of cost of labor – and then in Escondido, the adobe block yard went out of business; the blocks now had to be shipped from Fresno or elsewhere – and it became just too costly to build. So, it was all those things. Peirce: Yeah. That makes sense. You know, it tends to go when things become cost prohibitive, it definitely will stop people in their tracks and in terms of doing that kind of stuff. Clausen: Right. So that ended adobe construction in California, because of course there still is adobe construction in New Mexico, Arizona, and globally, for that matter, you know, worldwide. The adobe is still a popular way to build a cheap way if you have the labor. Peirce: Yeah, absolutely. Seeing that this isn't the only place where Adobe houses were built – and are built even to this day – as you guys kind of built this program and as it continued to grow, was there any sort of view of trying to expand to a larger area or working with other tours if they existed in places like New Mexico, to try and collaborate in any way? Or was this a very grassroots, “We’re sticking where we are and just kind of making this grow naturally where it is?” Clausen: Well, I think we would've loved to become a bigger, wider organization, but it all comes down to volunteers. And as you know, a lot of this, unless you're a paid staff putting on something like this-Although we were thrilled: we had a tour in Pauma Valley a few years ago, we've been invited to work with Valley Center Historical Society; there's a number of adobes there. We were also invited through Dominic Calarco who supervises the park system in Carlsbad; they would like to feature Leo Carillo and find some adobe homeowners there. So, we do have an interest, very North County interested people, and we'd like to do that, and then it keeps it from being boring Escondido; not boring, but, you know, you do sort of run out of homes or people that are willing. We do have bigger interest, and we know that people have traveled from Los Angeles and from other places to come and see the homes and be on the tour. In an ideal world? Yeah, wouldn’t it be neat to have this grand old, famous tour? You know, some cities do – the Palm Springs mid-century modern tour is just crazy famous, the Pasadena tours are – but we're restricted now by just a small group of volunteers. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, it can be difficult even with that outside interest when you don't have the facility to make it happen, whether it's personnel or whatever. There's always a friction, there's always that rub that kind of keeps you from doing more, even if there's the interest. Did you take anything from other tours? Did you learn from them? Or did you go, “We want to do something different. We want to kind of stick to our own program here?” Clausen: You know, the way I think this evolved, with a number of our Adobe homeowners haved jumped in after their home was on the tour to take a role and to help out. And so, for example, our current webmaster, Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 5 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Don, he took over the website. Intense interest in adobe, and really likes to post a lot of stuff, even adobe homes for sale. And then we had a lady – Mary Del May – she had taken over for Wendy in 2015 I want to say, I'll have to look it up, and professionalized it, and Tom; all of them have been on other home tours. So, I think what they brought to the table was things they liked, like, “Gee, you know, it was nice when we had a booklet, a full booklet and, you know, we could cut costs by having sponsor pages. That'll help the printing if we do a bigger booklet.” So, our homeowners who jumped in, I think they did bring experience from things they liked going on other tours. Then as we planned this, I think some things from other tours come in like don't let people stand too long. “Oh, we were in Tucson. We had to wait 45 minutes, but they sold cocktails.” <laugh> We're like, oh, we can't sell cocktails, but you know, we do have these, yeah. I think that everyone who has participated brings what they like, and they don't like, suggestions, they work, they don't, we've tried some things. So yeah, I'd say that we have benefited from other tours. Peirce: And it also sounds like you've benefited from, as you've done this program, collaborating with some of the people that have owned these homes, right? Like you said earlier-Clausen: Oh, absolutely. Peirce: It sounds like that's really been honestly, and correct me if I'm wrong, kind of the heart of the program as it's moved forward. Clausen: It really was helpful because in order to invite and ask people “Would you have your home on the tour?” They're shaking in their boots and to have other homeowners say, look, here's some information, which they've developed a little “Hello, homeowner, potential homeowner. This is what we did, little hit lists of this is what happens.” And then we also developed a security docent guide and docent stations. And that came out of the feedback from the homeowners to pace our volunteers throughout the home and allow people not to wander through on their own, but in groups as a group tour. And a lot of this came from the feedback of the homeowners wanting a little more security, a little more confidence, and most of the kind of tips for, “Hey, do you want to be on our tour,” came from the other homeowners. Absolutely. You know, lessons learned or could have, should have, would have. It's always a little growing thing. I think you're right. I think that this definitely comes from within. Peirce: Absolutely, and that's incredible, right? To really get that kind of support from people who see what the benefit is of highlighting this stuff, and just kind of doing that because it not only gets people to participate, but it brings their energy and their enthusiasm along with it. Speaking of enthusiasm, I know that there has been concern in some sectors of historians who are worried about people not being interested in history, people being ignorant of history. What efforts, if any, do you guys have to put in to get people interested in this part of history? Was there any sort of education that you had to put out? Did you have to teach people about this stuff? Did you find any struggles in getting people to come at any point? Or was this something that kind of once people heard about it, they were like “I'd like to learn more about that” or did you fight any struggles? Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 6 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Clausen: You know, we're always amazed at how easy this comes. I think being in the San Diego drivable region, that we're lucky because we are a county where we can still on a Sunday, get somewhere without a lot of trouble, and we do have the support of... like I mentioned, a lot of other historical societies have done garden tours, home tours, many cities have. And so people that love it, we find from our ticket holders, are a very strange combination with flat out “looky loos”: people that want to remodel their kitchen and they want to see others, as realtors are being a little more cautious about appointments and who comes in – for good reason, not to waste their time and security. So we have the people that just love to see other people's homes, and then we have just very hardcore interested – either mid-century modern architecture, maybe even students of architecture, and hobbyists – they are there for the architecture. We have a pretty neat little group of people interested in the garden now. Not every home is going to have a fancy garden – not by any means – but they're there primarily to see the garden and enjoy the garden. And then we do have history buffs; like that's what I'm just labeling people that love the history. Then year by year, we've tried to pick a theme. LIke last year: “The Romance of the Rancho” where we just call it out that maybe some of this is California fantasy, you know, and the places were carved out of orange groves, they're close to the earth. In some cases, the adobe block was made right there, right on the acreage that was formed and bulldozed, lot of use of heavy beams, sort of that romance of the Rancho. So we've brought that up. In Pauma, we had a chance to talk about the Luiseños building the Pauma mission. We had that be one of our stops and made sure that we arranged to include that. A lot of people told us, “You know, we've always heard about Pauma Mission and we've never gone. It was a chance to go out there.” Um, so we always get a very different mix, but always a mix of people. The strong elements that we always bask in is the people interested in the architecture, and of course, in the history. But I think some of this is people come along, they will read our booklet or the docents will tell them something and we feel there's an appreciation for the historic preservation that leaves every tour. Peirce: Absolutely. It's fascinating, right? You really have to find your niche and it sounds like this program really has found it in just a wide spectrum of people who are trying to see what you guys are displaying out there. You brought up how not every home has a garden or anything like that. Is there any sort of prerequisite to being on a tour for any of these houses or is it literally just, “Hey, you're an adobe house, you can be on it.” Are you a little choosy? How does that specifically work where you decide what goes on each tour? Clausen: We do have some levels. We've had some very simple, honest homes and then we've had some just outrageously beautiful homes from adobe. In some cases we've had to turn people down because in the times they were built the driveways and the parking are impossible. There still are a lot of niches around the Escondido area where they were carved out of an old orange or avocado grove and the parking and the in and out is just out of the question. So that's always a consideration, although we've had some pretty narrow tight squeezes. Some homes, once we've talked to the homeowners, they say, you know, we're really not ready. We would like our home to be, uh, a little closer to ready. They often bought the adobe as a fixer upper, but as everyone knows, it takes time and money and planning, and we've had homeowners who've come back and say, you know, now we're ready. In some cases, we had to turn down people because they were just way too out of the way. I'll give you an example: last tour we had on the edge of Rancho Santa Fe the Osuna adobe, and then a home in Del Dios and then across Escondido, just behind the mall, two homes in that general area – that were drivable. I think we had a Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 7 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 house offer way on Deer Springs Road. And so John – our webmaster – sometimes he would take and calculate the mileage, and then if you're 25 minutes one way and the only home out there, we would think that the homeowner would get gypped, you know, people would just say “Let's just go get lunch. We won't drive out there.” So we've tried to save some of the names and the addresses, so we could do a closer cluster of homes and hopefully we haven't missed out on anyone yet, and hanging onto names lets us be able to do that. We've had people who, as they've moved forward, say we just can't do this, you know, family circumstances or everyone just couldn't get on board. You know, a lot of things we expect could happen. We've gotten two thirds of the way and we've had people bail for very legitimate, understandable reasons. In a few cases, we've had previous homes on the tour again. We've had a few homes in that circumstance where an owner stepped up and a lot of times they've made changes. They've learned more about their home and it was enough years for our ticket holders. We have a lot of new ticket holders, so they're not saying, oh, we just saw that home. So yeah, I think there's been a combination of how we get there when the doors open. Peirce: Absolutely. So the individual houses, are the owners responsible for the histography of the tour for those places? Do you guys assist? How does that collaboration work? Clausen: In the last five years, I think I've done the majority of the history. In a lot of cases though, with new owners, sometimes we've gotten really lucky. They're walking their dog, they run into an old timer from the neighborhood, you know, someone who has lived there 40 years, and they'd come back as we're developing the history of their home, or they'd get a lead: a phone number of someone who knew who still own the home. So we've had a combination. I'd say maybe I do easily 70 to 75% of the research, and then 25% comes in from a lot of odd places and on occasion the homeowner themselves. So yeah, I think I've been doing most of it. For the internal side of it, the docent guide, then we lean on the homeowner for their remodel or what they were told about the remodel. If they have a newer kitchen maybe put in in the late eighties – they were told about it by the realtor – the docent on the kitchen stop will let people know what they're looking at. I'd say I've done a good portion of the research. Peirce: Awesome. Has that been a struggle as well, given that some of these houses - I don't wanna say they're not important, right? They are important, they're historical in their own way. But it’s not like Greta Garbo lived there; they're just regular homes in Escondido. Has that been difficult to gather that information? Clausen: You know, I've been stuck on homes for variety of reasons. Sometimes what happens is, let's say the homeowner had the adobe built for themselves and they worked the rest of their career at a conveyor belt as an engineer and retired, and perhaps their spouse was a schoolteacher and, you know, very wonderful everyday people. When we actually go look at the house, we generally will start finding jewels on some of the architecture. I think we've been pretty fortunate to have builders who have included architecture to keep the story going. This will be the treatment of the open beams or the fireplaces. Very often, we've had wonderful surviving fireplaces that were not remodeled; they're still there. We've had homes where the windows were yet not removed; they were still the old aluminum encasement crank windows, really neat, like ribbon style. It would even be the placement of arches, you Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 8 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 know, opening the arch of one room into the next. The unbelievable plate glass windows from floor to ceiling, capturing a style that is brought in from the craftsman era – Cliff May, who has been considered the father of the ranch house style that became mid-century and popularized – how they took the sense of bringing the outdoor to the edge of the indoor. The adobe builders in the mid-century – we’ve found the Weir brothers and others – they will do that plate glass window with the view, right from the bottom, right to the edge of the eaves with phenomenal views, taking advantage and placing the home on that view. Without a doubt, the architecture will jump in and take over. Funky chimney treatments, little touches like a little hut, an opening to put in firewood, right by the fireplace treatment of the mantle or the hearth. Maybe there's some amber inserted glass that's still from the original; once in a while, even the lighting fixtures. So, many homes where the owner isn't recognized as such as a fantastic story, usually the architecture jumps right in; there's something that has survived the floor treatment. We have homes with original flagstone, original tile, you know, goes on and on. So from room to room, as we're giving the tours and highlighting these things, we can keep the audience, the visitor very interested. And that's usually very rewarding to know that these original features are still there. Peirce: Absolutely. Have you had, has there been a home that was just completely original or do they all need work at some point? Clausen: Well, we have had a few that had a remarkable amount of original features left, and that usually gets us going pretty good. Now of course, I think the thing that happens to most houses is the kitchens need updating very badly, and often the bathrooms. But we have homes where even there's been extensive remodeling, we still recognize – I'll just use Weir for example because they're so well-known – some of the weird features are cabinet treatments, maybe even the lintels on the window trim, possibly the addition of a certain shape of a breakfast nook. So, we almost always see these features survive. We haven't really had homes that were entirely gutted. We've had some pretty good luck. Peirce: That's amazing. I mean, just thinking about how homes are now and people just rip them up and then build them back up.... Clausen: They do, and some of us don't even like to watch those shows where they come into a midcentury modern home with a sledgehammer; sometimes it's kind of creepy. Peirce: And a little upsetting, especially for someone who has been doing these kinds of tours, right? Looking at the big picture: do you feel that the tour has been successful in achieving the initial goals of what you were trying to do? Did it kind of mushroom beyond that? And if so, do you feel like there are things that you never thought were possible and things that you kind of wish you could have branched out into? Clausen: No, I think that those of us who started early on are honestly always amazed how this can sustain interest. And we're always thrilled for the feedback; not everyone's happy on our tours, of course not. Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 9 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 But we believe that the awareness of adobe construction and word of mouth and people wanting to see an adobe home, the inside of one, was well beyond our expectations. Absolutely. In terms of getting bigger, there's not enough of us. We think we will always have to limit our ticket sales. I mean, it'd be wonderful to run it two days. It'd be wonderful to raise more money, but there's just not enough of us. Really, I think raising people's understanding of what this construction is and what it was, and then historically its roots, you know, the adobe as construction material in California, I think we've done a pretty good job getting the message across and getting interest. Absolutely. We'd like to keep going. We hope we always have enough people and enough houses, but we think with the invitations to Carlsbad and maybe one day Rancho Santa Fe, and certainly Pauma again, Fallbrook has many adobe homes, Vista does... there are communities we still think we can keep going. Peirce: Absolutely. My last question is, it feels like you've created something here in North County that has really kind of stood the test of time here in terms of creating something from scratch and creating something that people come back to. You have repeat customers, you have all these things. What do you hope your legacy is with Adobe Home Tours and where do you hope to see it moving forward? Clausen: Well, I think for most of us and, you know, I can't speak for everyone, but I think for most of us, the importance of having the homes preserved – this is something that's stopped in time. Of course any development is at risk, no matter what, and that the stronger we stay and the higher the appreciation is the less likely that someone will want to buy the home, and as the prices and their value increase, we feel there's a less likelihood that it would be demolished for yet a bigger investment. Although many have been. But we really, I think we'd all like to know that the core of many of these homes will remain and that they'll go another hundred years. Peirce: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything about this program or anything about your career that you feel that we haven't touched on that you'd like to talk about before we start wrapping this up? Clausen: I think we covered it pretty well. And since we have a lot of programs that are a PDF on the Adobe Home Tour website, and Don keeps posting information – he's very good about answering questions people will forward to him and he'll forward to the rest of us so we can help. I think there's a lot out there now that was not available 10 years ago, so I think anyone that's interested has a check to jump on the website and dig around a little more and if needed con to contact any of us and the steering committee small, but we're out there to just keep promoting the adobe heritage. Peirce: Absolutely. And once again, that was adobehometours.com, correct? Clausen: That's correct. Yes. Peirce: Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 10 2022-05-13 �ALEXA CLAUSEN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW, 2022-04-12 Awesome. Just so just making sure we get that plug out there. Clausen: Okay. Right. Well, Jake, thank you so much. It's been great to talk to you and thanks for taking the interest. Peirce: I appreciate that, absolutely. I want to thank you very much from the bottom of my heart for taking this much time to talk about this. It's been fascinating. Transcribed by Jake Peirce and Sierra Jenkins 11 2022-05-13 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clausen, Alexa. Interview transcript. April 12, 2022. Description An account of the resource Alexa Clausen is one of the founders of the Adobe Home Tours in North County San Diego, providing much of the historiography of each stop on their yearly tours. She was employed as a historian with California State Parks prior to her involvement with Adobe Home Tours. In this interview, Alexa speaks about how Adobe Home Tours started, the successes and difficulties with running a program like Adobe Home Tours, and how her background with California State Parks helped prepare her for her current role. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alexa Clausen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jacob Peirce Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-12 Subject The topic of the resource Adobe houses Historic buildings -- Conservation and restoration Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) 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Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kevin Cole OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ColeKevin_WattsJill_2012-11-28_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Cole, Kevin. Interview November 28. 2012 WAHA-03 00:39:51 HIST-01 CSUSM Veterans Voices oral histories CSUSM This interview was conducted as part of the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project, now called the CSUSM Veterans Voices project. WAHA was conducted by the California State University San Marcos History Department in collaboration with the CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center) from 2012-2013. The project aimed to document, preserve, and make accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. csusm United States. Marine Corps ; September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001 ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; United States. Marine Corps--Recruiting and enlistment ; USS Cole Bombing Incident, Aden, Yemen, 2000 Kevin Cole ColeKevin_WattsJill_2012-11-28_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/67729db2171d7e702b46743f60168566.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history of Kevin Cole, recorded November 28, 2012, for the War At Home and Abroad (WAHA) project by the California State University San Marcos History Department. Cole begins his interview by discussing his family background as coming from an Irish Catholic immigrant family located in Lynn Massachusetts, and the role his civic-oriented family played in his and his brothers’ enlistment with the United States Marine Corps. Cole also briefly describes his brothers’ experiences in the Marines. Lynn (Mass.) ; Irish Catholic immigrants ; public service ; Marine Corps ; Mayor (Lynn, Mass.) ; fire crash rescue ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) 0 251 College experience, enlistment, and bootcamp Cole recounts his journey to enlistment in the Marine Corps, including dropping out of UMass Amherst and a short stint in community college, before attending bootcamp at Parris Island, South Carolina. UMass Amherst ; Marine Corps Recruit Depot (MCRD) ; bootcamp 0 400 Becoming a Marine Corps Rifleman Cole explains his decision to enlist with Marine Corps Infantry and describes his occupational specialty (O311), including the on-the-job training that is required to be a Rifleman and the knowledge and skills required. Cole also briefly discusses his parent unit for the entirety of his Marine Corps career, the 1st Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion, and the two-year cycle that being a Marine entails, including a six-month deployment aboard the USS Tarawa and some of the training and work that entailed. Cole also goes into detail about the experience of visiting foreign cultures and the humanitarian service side of his work. Marine Corps Infantry ; Rifleman ; O311 ; Light Armored Reconnaissance ; Marine Expeditionary Unit ; Delta Company ; 2-year cycle ; USS Tarawa ; Darwin, Australia ; Hawaii ; Thailand ; Guam ; Philippines ; Middle East ; East Timor 0 1050 Bombing of the USS Cole, ship life, downtime Cole recounts being deployed when the USS Cole, and his involvement in security and patrolling the bombing site and cleanup efforts when the USS Tarawa was dispatched to provide support. Cole also remembers his deployments aboard US naval vessels and the difficulties of ship life, and the work of a Rifleman continuing during downtime. USS Cole ; Gulf of Aden ; Indian Ocean ; downtime ; USS Tarawa ; Persian Gulf ; ship life ; Camp Doha 0 1389 September 11, 2001 and reenlistment Cole recounts learning of the 9/11 terrorist attack, which happened in the interim between his first and second deployment, while he was training at “29 Palms” (Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (MCAGCC)) during a combined arms exercise. Cole also remembers breaking up with his girlfriend in the wake of the attack. Cole reminisces about the state of technology at that time and the lack of media available to him about the attack while he was training, and the scarcity of instantaneous communication while deployed. Cole also discusses the clarifying incident that led to him reenlisting with the Marines, and how public sentiment towards members of the armed services changed after the USS Cole bombing and 9/11. 9/11 ; 29 Palms (Calf.) ; Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (MCAGCC) ; USS Mount Vernon 0 2110 Second deployment Cole describes his second deployment, this time aboard the USS Mount Vernon, including the places he went and the training he undertook, as well as an attack on the Marines in Kuwait. Cole also recounts refusing orders to go to recruiting school so that he could be deployed alongside his unit in Iraq, January 2003. USS Mount Vernon ; Darwin, Australia ; Camp Doha ; Kuwait ; terrorist attack ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; Singapore ; Guam ; Thailand ; East Timor 0 Kevin Cole served with the Marine Corps as a Rifleman from 1998 - 2007. In his interview, Cole recounts his personal motivations for enlisting with the Marines and for enlisting as a Rifleman, as well as his family's civic-minded nature. Cole also discusses his bootcamp and on-the-job training with the Marine Corps, as well as the two-year cycle of Marine life: training, joining a larger joint unit, deployment, and downtime. Cole recounts two deployments, ship life aboard his deployments on Naval vessels, the bombing of the USS Cole, the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and how attitudes towards Marines and the armed services shifted in the wake of those attacks. Cole ends his interview by relaying his reasons for reenlistment after 9/11.&#13 ; &#13 ; This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, facilitated by the California State University San Marcos History Department, from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:06.474 --> 00:00:50.871 My name's Kevin Cole, and I was born in Lynn, Massachusetts in 1977 to a Irish Catholic immigrant family. Um, my mother was from London, my dad, from the city of Lynn, which is just north of Boston. And I was the third of three brothers. I come from a family that is very kind of--a family that's very civic-minded or civic-oriented. My dad's side of the family in particular, has a lot of service, um, in the family, a lot of military service, a lot of public servants. Maybe that's the Irish heritage too, I don't know. But a lot of firefighters and cops. And the bulk of my family is still in the Boston area. 00:00:50.871 --> 00:02:06.734 My grandfather was an attorney in the, uh, United States Army. He served from, I wanna say, '40 to '44, somewhere in there. because when he got back from World War II, he served as a politician as well. He was a state senator in Massachusetts. And he was also the mayor of my hometown, which is a pretty big city outside of Boston, just north of Boston. I know he had brothers who were also in the military. I know my uncle Joe, my dad's Uncle Joe was in the Marine Corps for many years. And I had another, um, great uncle who also served in the Marine Corps. He was a colonel in the Marine Corps as well. My dad and his brother didn't serve in the military, but they were public school teachers. They both served as public school educators in the elementary schools. I think between the two of 'em, they had like seventy-five, seventy-four years of teaching service. My dad was a teacher in the Lynn Public School System in Massachusetts for forty years. And my mom and dad had three sons, um, still have three sons and all three served in the military. 00:02:06.734 --> 00:03:08.675 And I can remember as a kid growing up in Massachusetts, knowing my cousin who's the firefighter, and my uncle who's the firefighter, and, you know, other cousins who were cops and served in the military and uncles and aunts who served in the military, it was kind of a no-brainer when I was a little kid. I can remember dressing up as a Army Ranger for Halloween. And it was kind of a theme in my family. All three of the boys always talked about joining the military. My eldest brother Mike graduated from high school and kind of piddled around for a few months, and then enlisted in the Marine Corps. He was a firefighter in the Marine Corps from 1991 to 1996. And he served in a fire crash rescue department in Camp Pendleton. He served on the runway, and he's what most Marines would commonly refer to as a pope. He was a personnel other than grunt. So he wasn't a trigger puller. He actually learned a skill while he was in the Marines. 00:03:08.675 --> 00:03:39.000 It's not to say I didn't learn skills in the infantry or my other brother Pat. We both learned skills, certainly, but they don't translate well to the outside unless you want to become a cop or a SWAT team member or something along those lines. So my eldest brother Mike, served for five years. He did deploy on one occasion. He deployed to Somalia with the Marine Expeditionary Unit, sometime in early 1993 prior to the whole Black Hawk down scenario. That played out later in that year. 00:03:39.000 --> 00:04:11.444 My brother Pat also served in the Marine Corps. He enlisted in 1992, and he served for, I think just a little over four years. He was stationed primarily in Okinawa. I think he was there for three years. And he, as I said before, he was an infantry Marine. He served in the Marine Corps infantry as a reconnaissance Marine. He served, um, he served as a reconnaissance Marine for I want to say almost the entire time he was in. So he was in the infantry the whole time. 00:04:11.444 --> 00:05:29.725 And then finally the third of three sons. I enlisted in the Marine Corps in 1998. I had graduated from high school in 1996 and attended UMass Amherst for a year. And then I dropped out, mostly due to poor grades. I--I think a big part of it was that I didn't have the discipline as a student that I earned over many years in the Marines. So in 1996 when I graduated, um, went straight away to college at UMass, which was just far enough away from home to dorm and just close enough that I could drive back on the weekends if I wanted to. And so I wanted to get out of the hou--out of my parents' house. And so I went to UMass, but it didn't really work out. And so I went to community college in Massachusetts for a year part-time. And it was at that time that I met a couple of Marine Corps recruiters, and I wound up enlisting in the Marines in the summer of '98. I signed my papers on June 30th, '98, and went to bootcamp at Parris Island, South Carolina, um, MCRD, Parris Island, October 18th of '98. 00:05:29.725 --> 00:06:40.562 So I left for bootcamp. And I can remember going there and because I was an Eagle Scout, kind of a cool thing the military does, if you're an Eagle Scout, they give you a rank. They figure that you have some leadership skills. So they--you get an automatic promotion when you enlist. At least they did it that time. I think they still do it now, but I'm not certain. But regardless, I was made a private first class right when I signed the paperwork. And I went to bootcamp, and I can remember my dad saying to me, "you're the type of kid that you're either gonna wash out or you're gonna graduate from bootcamp, you know, at the top of your class." And so I went to Parris Island in October of '98. I graduated from bootcamp. I graduated a private first class. I was among the leaders of the group. Probably narrowly missed out on a promotion. But I think I gained quite a bit from bootcamp. It was a good experience for me. I got into shape and I certainly started learning discipline. But it was a process over many years that led me to being a disciplined Marine. 00:06:40.562 --> 00:08:06.824 So after bootcamp in Parris Island, um, I went to Camp Geiger, North Carolina for School of Infantry. I had enlisted as an infantry Marine despite the objections of my recruiters, I had scored really well on the ASVAB, the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery. It's the entrance exam you have to take to enlist in the military. Actually, to enter the military, you have to take this exam. And I scored really, really highly on it. In fact, I scored so highly that the Marine Corps said, you can take whatever job you want, um, and do whatever you want in the military. But there were certain job fields that encompassed many different jobs. And the one I really wanted to do was what my older brother Michael had done. He had served in a fire crash rescue, and I wanted to do the same thing. I thought being a firefighter was cool. Again, it kind of goes back to that family tradition of civil service. And so that is what I wanted. But the recruiter told me that he couldn't guarantee me a specific job. He could only guarantee me a specific job field. And that field that included fire crash rescue also included all air supporting duties. And some of 'em were just horrific. I remember Air Traffic Controller was the one that jumped out at me, and I thought there's no way I can sit in front of a computer screen for the next four years. 00:08:06.824 --> 00:09:30.595 And so, despite the recruiter's objections, I enlisted infantry knowing that all the fields are so closely related, at least I'm gonna get to do what I want to do. And so I enlisted in the infantry. My military occupational specialty is called O311. It's the Infantry Family, O3, and 11 is the designation for a rifleman. It's the most basic Marine there really is. Of course, I say most basic, and it doesn't mean--it doesn't mean elementary. It doesn't mean not as advanced. It just means that that's kind of the baseline for all Marines. And when you become a Marine Corps Rifleman, you then go on to learn a whole lot more. There's a lot more OJT, on-the-job training that comes with being in the Marine Corps Infantry. Whereas with a lot of specialty jobs like fire crash rescue or air traffic control, whatever, the initial schooling is a lot greater. Of course, there's still a certain degree of on-the-job training, but, with the Marine Corps Infantry, you really never, ever, ever stop learning. I can remember my last year in the Marines, after having served for over eight years in the Marine Corps, serving the infantry the entire time, I was still learning new things. 00:09:30.595 --> 00:10:59.514 So I think people kind of jokingly refer to as Marine Infantrymen as grunts, because that's all they do, and they don't really learn too much. But actually the knowledge that a Marine Corps Infantryman has is significant. And it doesn't come easily. It's not an easy job. So when I say basic, in terms of Marine Corps Rifleman being the basic Marine, they're actually pretty advanced, as far as intelligence, because they have to learn so much. Um, so I went to Camp Geiger. I went to School of Infantry there for the, O311 school, and I can't remember how long it was. I remember it started in January, I wanna say January 25th, 1999, and ended probably sometime in March. I think I checked into my parent unit at Camp Pendleton in the end of March. March 21st, 2000--excuse me, March 21st, 1999 was when I checked in with the 1st Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion. Uh, they're stationed in Camp Pendleton. And it's a mechanized infantry unit that provides forward reconnaissance. So it's a, it's an infantry force, but it's also a reconnaissance force. So I checked in there March of '99, and I served with that unit as my parent unit for the entire length of my Marine Corps career, until I was discharged, honorably on March the first, 2007. 00:10:59.514 --> 00:11:15.000 So I served in the same unit for just a little under eight years, plus four or five months of schooling, was my total time in service. 00:11:15.000 --> 00:12:24.215 So after checking in with first LAR (Light Armored Reconnaissance), I learned the pattern of an infantry Marine. Their cycle is such that when you join the infantry or any deploying unit for that matter, you're guaranteed somewhat of a certain cycle that follows a two year--a two year pattern. And so the two years is broken up into four, six-month pieces. The first six of which is a training cycle, which is when I joined my unit. I joined during the training cycle, and then after the six month training cycle within your unit, you then are tasked with a larger joint unit, and that unit becomes the Marine Expeditionary Unit. And so when I was with Delta Company, first, LAR, that unit was then chopped out of our parent unit and placed with a larger battalion landing team. I think it was 3-1 on my first deployment. And we spent six months training as Delta Company. And then our company moved and attached to the battalion landing team, 3rd battalion, 1st Marines, and we trained as a larger combined unit for six months. 00:12:24.215 --> 00:14:14.000 So that's the first year of the cycle. Then the second year of the cycle, the first six months is when you actually deploy. So you spend six months training as a unit. You spend six months training with the collective, a greater unit, and then you spend six months deployed. My first deployment at that time, it was prior to, uh, you know, war. It was in 2000 and September 11th hadn't happened yet. And we deployed on a normal Marine Corps pattern. So we did six months of training, six months of working up training with the larger group, and then six months deployed. My first six months as I said, was on the USS Tarawa, um, which is a pretty large ship. And we went out with the Marine Expeditionary Unit, with the battalion landing team, and we traveled by ship from San Diego to Hawaii. And then from Hawaii, we really went all over the place. Some of the ports we hit were, in Australia, we ported in Darwin, and we had the opportunity to train with the Australian Army there, the 2nd cavalry regiment, which drove--utilized the vehicles similar to the light armor reconnaissance vehicles, the LAVs that we used. Um, but we had an opportunity to train with many units. We did lots of training in Hawaii, we did training in Darwin on a couple of occasions. We trained in Singapore. We--I'm sorry, we didn't train in Singapore, we trained in Thailand. Um, but during the six months at sea on ship, we made several port ports of call. And during those times, some were for work, but some were for liberty. And so we would get free time. Singapore was one example where we got lots of free time. I think we probably spent ten days there, five days on the way out and five days on the way back. 00:14:14.000 --> 00:15:27.914 And when I say on the way out, I mean to the Middle East. It was certainly a hotspot at the time in the late nineties. So we were--we were always cognizant as Marines that there were places in the world that were danger zones. And in fact, the Middle East is a tax free zone for that purpose. It's considered a hazardous duty. And so servicemen and women who serve in that region don't pay taxes. I don't know why, but regardless, it was more pay for us. So that was nice. But the destination of deployments at that time was to the Middle East. And so we would leave San Diego and go to the Middle East and come back, and we would make that a six-month trip. And in doing so, we would stop at many ports of call. So Thailand was one example. Singapore, Guam, the Philippines, we stopped at a lot of different places. I had the opportunity to go to Seychelles, which was like, amazing. Learned how to dive there. It was pretty cool. Um, but at the same time, there's a lot of work involved as well. We, we went to, whoa! (room light turns off) 00:15:27.914 --> 00:16:12.315 So we were able to go to many different ports of call for training purposes, but also for free time purposes, which was really nice. It was the opportunity to see the world, which was cool. Which it--it wasn't why I joined the military. I think I honestly ultimately joined the Marine Corps out of a sense of civic duty. And it ended up being the Marines out of, I guess, pride. But there were a lot of Marines in my family at the time. Of course my two older brothers were both Marines. Um, they had both just been recently discharged. But I think part of it was a, certainly a sense of civic pride and a duty, kind of a sense of an obligation to give back to the country that's been really good to my family, who, as I said, were immigrants. 00:16:12.315 --> 00:16:50.044 So, going overseas and deploying to a different hostile--different hotspots at the time, they weren't quite hostile until later, was an amazing experience. To visit foreign cultures and do a lot of good--in different ways--providing medical services in East Timor was a great one. We earned a--my unit collectively earned a humanitarian service medal on a couple of occasions for going to East Timor and helping a really severely impoverished country. 00:16:50.044 --> 00:17:30.315 But we also had opportunities to do, you know, help build schools and paint houses and lots of neat stuff like that. The service abroad was not just, go to Iraq, go to Afghanistan and start, you know, being a bully. It was an opportunity to do humanitarian work. In fact a significant portion of my time spent in Iraq in 2003 was actually giving out food, giving out food. Giving out water, medical aid to people. That's certainly some of the things that I remember fondly from my service in Iraq. 00:17:30.315 --> 00:19:06.000 But going overseas on my first deployment on the USS Tarawa, the threat of war is something that's always in the back of a mind, the mind of a Marine, especially one in the infantry who fires a gun almost every day and learns how to employ weapons of warfare. So it was a shock to me, but not a total shock when the USS Cole was bombed. I was deployed, I was onboard the USS Tarawa at the time when the USS Cole was bombed. In fact, I believe we were in the Persian Gulf. And when the Tara--excuse me, when the USS Cole was bombed in the Gulf of Aden--I think it was the Gulf of Aden--we, you know, did 180-degree return and sailed south from the Gulf. And I believe we were on scene the next day. We provided security operations, uh, Zodiac patrols. Zodiacs are the small boats you see in movies. We provided security patrols via those small boats. We also, uh, the ship, as I said, the Tarawa was a big ship, so we provided a base of operations for the investigation team that was there. I believe they were members of the FBI. I'm not certain, um, or might have even been the CIA, I don't know. But there were guys wearing suits and they were investigating the USS Cole bombing. And so we were there onsite for that. And that was really, um, I don't wanna say it was a wake up call because it wasn't a shock, but it was a surprise that a terrorist attack had occurred. 00:19:06.000 --> 00:21:26.324 Regardless, we continued with our deployment after the area had been secured in the USS Cole was then, taken over by another crew and I believe it was floated back to the United States on a huge cargo ship. We continued on with our mission, which as I said, was to go to the Middle East, to do some training in the Middle East to be a part of the Fifth Fleet and to monitor activities in the Indian Ocean and the Persian Gulf area. And so we went to camp Doha in Kuwait and did some training in Kuwait, for, I don't know, probably a month? Two to four weeks. Anyway. And while we were there, we were doing training exercises, and it was always, uh, everything we did was always a preparation for war. It's really--it's a reality. And it's funny because--it's funny--it's strange because as young Marines, you are taught and you perform so much in preparation for war, that when it comes, it's not a surprise, it's not a shock. And for the most part, you're ready for it. So we, we conducted our deployment. We did our training in Camp Doha, and we came back to the States. Um, we spent, I think, six months to the day on board the USS Tarawa. We'd also spent some time ashore of course doing some training and stuff, but for the most part, it was ship life, which it isn't, uh, it isn't very fun. It isn't very fun at all. It seemed like on both my deployments via US Naval vessel, both times in the middle of the Indian Ocean, in the middle of summer, when it's 120 degrees out, the air conditioner breaks in the berthing area, which is the room where, um, which is a quarters on board the ship where Marines and Sailors sleep. It seemed like it didn't fail that the air conditioner would break at some point during the deployment and make the inside of the ship, you know, 150 degrees. And I can remember many, many hot nights sleeping on the flight deck, which is probably frowned upon now, I would imagine. But at the time, it wasn't that big a deal 00:21:26.324 --> 00:23:09.000 Regardless, we came back, I wanna say in February of 2000. I wanna say February of 2000, or, yeah--February of 2000 is when we came back from my first deployment. I believe it was with the 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit, but it might have been the 11th, because I always get 'em confused. The next time I went out was about a year and a half later, and I went out with the other one. This time it was with Battalion Landing Team 2/1, which is 2nd Marines, excuse me, 2nd Battalion, 1st Marines. And with 2/1, we did the same cycle again. So it's the six months of training, six months of training as a combined unit, six months of deployment on ship, and then you get six months of downtime where there are a lot of three and four-day weekends. Sometimes. They're--you're supposed to get a lot of three and four day weekends. It doesn't always work out that way. Um, but after our six months of downtime, which we did get, we went right back into training phase again, and an Infantry Marine trains all the time. You shoot your gun all the time, you clean your gun all the time. We had large vehicles to take care of being in a mechanized in mechanized infantry unit. We had vehicles to clean, to maintain, to test and to push to the limit to ensure that we could do so again in a time of crisis, which of course, proved relevant. Regardless, my second deployment came in 2002 after training some more and training with the Battalion Landing Team again, we then deployed in June of 2002. 00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:56.825 Now, in the interim, September 11th had happened, and I remember September 11th, pretty vividly, only because I was--I mean, I'm sure I'd remember it vividly either way, but I remember it, I remember the moment for me when a corporal I was serving with came up to me and told me a plane crashed into the Twin Towers. And then he said, and you know, half an hour ago, another plane crashed into the other tower. And at the time, we were training in 29 Palms. We had been in 29 Palms for several weeks. We were doing a combined arms exercise. So it was a lot of different moving parts, a lot of units. In fact, I think it was one of the biggest combined armed exercises that 29 Palms had seen in a while. And that was saying a lot because it's one of the biggest bases, it's my understanding it's the largest impact area. 00:23:56.825 --> 00:25:22.000 So there's the largest training ground where you can fire weapons. And they often have combined armed exercises that have, you know, five, ten thousand Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, et cetera tied to them. This was one of the larger combined armed exercises that 29 Palms had conducted. And I don't know how many thousands of Marines were there working in cooperation during this training exercise, but it was significant. It was a lot. And when September 11th happened, I remember calling home, and I had a, I had a girlfriend at the time back in Massachusetts where I'm originally from, and I can remember calling her the next day and telling her this, you know, our relationship isn't gonna work anymore. And it was not a hard decision for me at all. I remember she kind of got upset and said, "What are you talking about? You know, you're gonna break up with me over the phone." And I said, "You know what?" I said, "I am serving my country and I can't afford to be tied to anything but the Marine Corps. I'm married to the Marine Corps, essentially." And I can remember it wasn't a tough decision. I just felt it incumbent upon me as a citizen of this country to continue to serve to the best of my ability and to eliminate any distractions. And I don't think it was right then that I had decided to reenlist, but it was a short time later. 00:25:22.000 --> 00:26:40.815 I remember September 11th, you know, it all went down and we continued our training cycle. We were scheduled to be in 29 Palms for several more weeks, and we stayed. So we didn't have access to TV at the time. You know, it was 2001. I remember I was a squad leader of a group of fifteen to twenty men, and I think seven of us had cell phones. Six or seven of us had cell phones, the other guys didn't have cell phones. It's important to consider that as the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, the conflicts that have arisen in the 2000s, as they have progressed, technology has advanced in such a way that it blows people's minds when I tell them, you know, when I served in Iraq, there were no cell phones. You couldn't just pull a phone out of your pocket in 2003 and call your mom in Boston. It just wasn't possible. Phones weren't capable of doing that. And if they were, I sure didn't have one. And they were probably way too expensive. I remember we had one or two reporters who were tasked to our unit in Iraq, and they had phones that were capable of calling the United States. I got to call home once in 2003. One time I got to call home and talk to my, I think, my brother, for about five minutes. And that was it. That was it. That was it. 00:26:40.815 --> 00:27:08.055 So I think it's important to recognize that technology has advanced in such a way that when I say to people, only seven guys out of, you know, fifteen to twenty had cell phones, they say, what? This was a time, Skype hadn't been invented, MacBooks and Apple was, was still a significant, um, significantly struggling, I should say. Technology wasn't advanced to the point where it is now. 00:27:08.055 --> 00:28:25.765 And so when September 11th happened, I can remember we had one guy in my unit who was from New York State. He was just a little ways away from New York. And I remember he used my phone to call home and make sure his family was okay. And they were, but I can remember the impact of September 11th happening on us as Marines wasn't as significant as it was to the common citizen. Um, I think because of our military training, I think because of our military mindset, because we were in the infantry, it was kind of like, wow. But it wasn't a total shock. It was shocking that somebody was able to attack our country so boldly, so blatantly. But I don't think it really surprised or scared any of us. I think it--in the infantry, we can't be scared because of our training and our training is very important and very thorough, and it prepares us for things like that. Certainly, it doesn't prepare you for a plane flying into a building, but at the same time, the shock factor wasn't as big for us as Marines. 00:28:25.765 --> 00:30:49.375 And so after September 11th happened, we had to continue to train. We were still in 29 Palms. We still had a couple of weeks there. I think we spent probably three more weeks in 29 Palms. So much time in fact, that when we got back to Camp Pendleton, the video footage of the attack on the Twin Towers was gone. They had already removed it from the news reels. So for the most part, all we saw was still images. I saw a few small videos, but I didn't see what everybody else saw on September 11th, because I was training, I was out in the field. I didn't have access to a TV. I didn't have a smartphone where you could watch the news. In fact, in 2003 when we deployed to Iraq, we heard the news probably three times, BBC. But it was one of the biggest aspects of coming home that was fearful to me. People often ask me, were you scared in Iraq? And I said, no, never. I was scared when I got on the plane and was about halfway back to the United States, though, because I didn't know what people were gonna think of me. Technology hadn't caught up to that point to, like it is today where soldiers in the field can actually get in front of a computer and Skype home and read their kid a bedtime story. That is new technology that we weren't privy to. And so when September 11th occurred, and we were in 29 Palms, it was certainly shocking to us. But I think it was later that I made the decision to reenlist, because later in the year, we were coming back from a large exercise in the cold weather training facility up by Bishop California. And when we were on our way back, I can remember somebody had. in my vehicle had wired a little FM radio to our intercom system so we could actually hear the news. So we could actually hear the news. And we actually got to hear a local station come on and say, you know, soldiers in, in their big tanks are gonna be driving down Main Street any minute, go out and, and, and wave to the soldiers. 00:30:49.375 --> 00:32:27.865 And I can remember driving through the small town California and seeing kids running out of a schoolhouse to line the sidewalk and wave and cheer for us. And it was very, um, it was very--it was very special. It was very special to receive that kind of support because I had never seen it before. And when I talked to servicemen and women today about the support we had and the support we didn't have while serving from society, they're kind of shocked when I tell 'em about my first few years in the Marines when Marines were kind of frowned upon. They weren't well liked. They were--Marines were underfoot, there were too many of 'em. Um, I can remember going into a couple of bars, nightclubs in North Carolina when I was in School of Infantry and being told, "Hey, Marines aren't allowed in this bar. You need to go somewhere else." And that was okay. You know, that nowadays you hear that somebody isn't supporting the military and whoa, go to another country. Um, but at that time, it wasn't cool to be a Marine. It wasn't cool to be in the service. And so to see that transition, probably right after the USS Cole was bombed, certainly at September 11th, to see that transition of servicemen are kind of frowned upon to, wow, I want my daughter to date a Marine. Um, and I don't know if it's ever actually gone that far, but certainly better than Marines aren't allowed in this bar. 00:32:27.865 --> 00:34:09.000 And I think it was driving through those small towns and watching kids wave and people come out, I can remember thinking, and maybe even saying over the intercom of my vehicle, "Hey guys, this is why we're here." And I remember thinking in my head, this is why I'm serving my country, to provide freedom, and to provide security for our people. And to see that threatened was--it was horrifying. But as I said, it wasn't shocking. I think the shock value of it was lessened on us as Marines. But regardless, to see an outpouring of public support for the military and to see the public really at that time transitioned from a, eh, I don't know how I feel about the military to wow, I love our military. It was definitely special. And at some point in there, I decided to reenlist. Each of my older brothers served one enlistment. My older brother Mike served for five years. My brother Pat served a little over four, but I made a decision to reenlist partly based upon September 11th, partly based upon the type of support we got as servicemen and women from the American public. But I think a big part of it too, was, again, it kind of fell back to this civic duty, this sense of obligation I felt, that was kind of inborn in me as a kid. I felt that my duty was not yet done. 00:34:09.000 --> 00:35:10.656 And further, when we got back from 29 Palms, when we got back from--when we got back from, uh, the training exercise in the cold weather warfare, I can remember I was pretty close to getting out of the Marines at that time. I had a few months left in the Marine Corps in my first enlistment. And I remember one of my commanders saying, we're gonna need volunteers to go back out on a second deployment because we're short. And me and probably three or four other guys--me and probably three or four other guys volunteered to go back out with Delta Company first LAR again. And that was when we deployed on the (USS) Mount Vernon, in 2002. We did another six month deployment. We did another six months training, six months of training with the combined group, and then a six month deployment and returned home on December 15th, 2002. 00:35:10.656 --> 00:36:33.934 Now, that deployment was a little bit different than the first. I can recall that somebody was retiring. I believe it was the admiral, or someone high ranking was retiring. And so he wanted to go to some of the nice places on our deployment. That was the rumor. I don't know if it was true. But regardless, we seemed to be going to a lot of nice ports of call. We went to Darwin, we went to Singapore, we went to Guam, we went to Thailand. We went to Thailand, we went to East Timor, which was kind of typical in the training cycle at that time, doing some humanitarian efforts there. We also went to, I believe we went to Seychelles on that deployment. So we hit a lot of cool, cool places to go, a lot of good places to go and enjoy ourselves, to, you know, go on the beach to surf, to dive. But we also did some significant training. And it was there in Camp Doha when we were out in an impact area training, we received word that one of the units at assigned to the Battalion Landing Team had been attacked in Kuwait. And I don't remember if one Marine was killed and one Marine was wounded, or if two Marines were killed. I think it was two Marines were killed. And it was a terrorist attack. It was kind of this truck full of guys drove by and fired into a group of Marines who were doing some training, and one or two were killed. 00:36:33.934 --> 00:38:16.485 And that was kind of shocking because we were a forward force at the time. We were, you know, not out there in a peaceful manner. We were out there doing training, firing guns, having a live fire exercise in Kuwait, in Northern Kuwait. And we were attacked. And I remember that really kind of set the tone. When we were on our way back, we already knew that something was going down soon. And I remember I had extended my contract by four or five months to deploy on the second occasion. And when we got back from deployment, I remember I was told--uh, I reenlisted during deployment. I remember I was told, we're gonna need you, Sergeant Cole to go to recruiting school. And I can remember saying, no, I'm not going to recruiting school. You're crazy. My unit's getting ready to go overseas again. And we returned on December 15th, and between December 15th and I think January 6th, I refused orders to go to recruiting school, got like a reprimand. Um, mainly for the fact that the sergeant who was gonna replace me--I didn't trust him with my Marines. Period. I didn't trust him with my Marines. And I felt that if somebody was gonna continue to lead my platoon, it should be me and not somebody they don't know. So for those reasons, I denied my orders and was reprimanded and deployed to Iraq. 00:38:16.485 --> 00:39:31.945 So we deployed to Iraq in January, 2003. We had just come back from deployment on a--on the USS Mount Vernon. And a month later we were on a plane from March Air (Reserve) Base flying back to Iraq. We landed in Kuwait in, I don't know, mid-January 2003. And at that point, we were all aware that danger was imminent. Um, period. We knew what we were there to do. But in the back of our minds, we were all told, you know, this is a military engagement certainly, but it is also a significant humanitarian effort. We're going to relieve people who are being oppressed. And we were given humanitarian food. We were given extra water, extra food that we could give out. All of our Navy Corpsmen were instructed to give out medical aid as necessary and as able, um, without it being detrimental to the Marines they were serving with. And so we knew that was definitely gonna be a part of our mission. 00:39:31.945 --> 00:39:51.445 So when we arrived in Kuwait, again, we went right back into training and preparing. We had many different missions that we were, um, that we were tasked with. I'll get to that another time 'cause I gotta go. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. 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Interview November 28, 2012 Description An account of the resource Kevin Cole served with the Marine Corps as a Rifleman from 1998 - 2007. In his interview, Cole recounts his personal motivations for enlisting with the Marines and for enlisting as a Rifleman, as well as his family's civic-minded nature. Cole also discusses his bootcamp and on-the-job training with the Marine Corps, as well as the two-year cycle of Marine life: training, joining a larger joint unit, deployment, and downtime. Cole recounts two deployments, ship life aboard his deployments on Naval vessels, the bombing of the USS Cole, the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and how attitudes towards Marines and the armed services shifted in the wake of those attacks. Cole ends his interview by relaying his reasons for reenlistment after 9/11. This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, a collaboration of the California State University San Marcos History Department and CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center), from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WAHA-03 Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001 United States. Marine Corps United States. Marine Corps -- Recruiting and enlistment USS Cole Bombing Incident, Aden, Yemen, 2000 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-11-28 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kevin Cole Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lynn (Mass.) Twentynine Palms (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> CSUSM Veterans Voices Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/84b4d291425238d1a6b1ad8321a41775.pdf 03077269591f47c6d5239cd22e9b9ad9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cole, Kevin. Interview transcript, November 28, 2012 Description An account of the resource Transcript of oral history interview with Kevin Cole. Cole served with the Marine Corps as a Rifleman from 1998 - 2007. In his interview, Cole recounts his personal motivations for enlisting with the Marines and for enlisting as a Rifleman, as well as his family's civic-minded nature. Cole also discusses his bootcamp and on-the-job training with the Marine Corps, as well as the two-year cycle of Marine life: training, joining a larger joint unit, deployment, and downtime. Cole recounts two deployments, ship life aboard his deployments on Naval vessels, the bombing of the USS Cole, the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and how attitudes towards Marines and the armed services shifted in the wake of those attacks. Cole ends his interview by relaying his reasons for reenlistment after 9/11. This interview was conducted as part of the CSUSM Veterans Voices project, a collaboration of the California State University San Marcos History Department and CSUSM Student Veterans Center (now the Epstein Family Veterans Center), from 2012-2013. Veterans Voices (originally called War at Home and Abroad) documents, preserves, and makes accessible the experiences of CSUSM's student veterans. This interview was conducted with a "self-interviewing" protocol, a process drawn from a technique known as Digital Storytelling, which invites the narrator to self-author the interview, telling their story from their perspective, in their own words, and in their own manner. Narrators were provided a list of topics and interview guidelines emphasizing that they could use all, some, or none of the topics as they fashioned their stories about military service and related experiences, thus allowing each narrator to decide what they deemed to be historically important. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kevin Cole Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-11-28 Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 September 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001 United States. Marine Corps USS Cole Bombing Incident, Aden, Yemen, 2000 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Lynn (Mass.) Twentynine Palms (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text CSUSM Veterans Voices Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lynda Cull OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CullLynda_DownieJudith_2017-05-11.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. San Diego brewing;women in brewing;home brewing;brewing industry;craft brewing OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Cull, Lynda. Interview May 11th, 2017. SC027-068 00:40:01 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm San Diego brewing ; women in brewing ; home brewing ; brewing industry ; craft brewing Lynda Cull Judith Downie Sound CullLynda_DownieJudith_2017-05-11.mp3 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b4107f0ccb3c2b31d1ad90a3e9b6c721.mp3 Other audio Oral history interview of Lynda Cull on May 11, 2017, at Stone World Bistro and Gardens, Escondido, CA. Cull is a home brewer and financial consultant specializing in the beer industry. In this interview, Lynda discusses how she got into home brewing and her career as a financial professional in the brewing industry. She speaks to her experience with brewing groups in the San Diego area and as a woman in the brewing industry. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:20.000 Okay. Today is May 11th, 2017. This is Judith Downie, interviewer, working with Lynda Cull, interviewee, at Stone Bistro in Escondido, California. (discussion about audio quality) 00:00:20.000 --> 00:01:37.000 Well like I was saying just a second ago that the entire reason I got into the brewery industry and home brewing and everything was when I was studying abroad in Spain, I realized that first off, I don't really like wine that much, which just kind of a, kind of a bummer when you're in Spain of all places. But it was very cheap to get beer everywhere. You know, you could get little glasses of beer at bars, and it was two, three euros, which is hardly anything. So, we would go out for beer a lot, and at some point, I kind of realized that all of these European beers where they're all lagers, so they all taste like bread. They're all liquid bread. They're not, they're not super interesting. They didn't inspire a lot of, you know, different things in me. But when I was traveling, I realized that, you know, I'm coming back to San Diego, which is this huge tourist location, and I really hadn't done a lot of these San Diego kind of things. So when I came back, it was like, Well, beer is cool. I like beer, and San Diego is the, you know, craft beer capital of the world, supposedly. So, if I'm going to do San Diego things and I want to pick something, that's going to be easy and casual, why not beer? You know. 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:38.000 What year was this? 00:01:38.000 --> 00:11:19.000 That was in--I came back in 2014. So, in 2014 was when I really started kind of paying attention to what breweries were down here and kind of testing them out and trying them out. And you know, one thing kind of led to another. I didn't realize because I'd been used to drinking all these European beers that all taste the same, and then I got down to San Diego and realized that there's all these different styles and every single beer tastes different. And a batch from the same brewery will taste different different times. So, that was really interesting to me. And just the entire culture of it. You know, everybody in the craft industry is pretty friendly. Everybody's a little bit nerdy. They like to talk about their beers and what's in it and everything. And it really goes to that kind of next level, where it's a little bit more intellectual in San Diego. You can tell who, when you're talking to someone, if they kind of know what they're talking about or they're totally into it 100%. It seems like people really fall onto one end of the spectrum or the other. So started going around and just trying different breweries. There was a little bar by my house that would do Kill the Keg nights on Wednesday nights. So, it was four dollars--it was three dollars. It started out as three dollars a pint. And then they raised it to four dollars a pint, which is kind of a bummer, but that really expanded my horizons as well. And at the same time, my fiancé--boyfriend at that time, my fiancé now--is up in Santa Barbara. So, I would go to visit him and there's just a handful of breweries up there, but that's really how I got into it was just, I want to do something San Diego-y. Beer is San Diego-y. So that's kinda’ what I got into and then not super long after that--I want to say in 2015--one of my friends just for Christmas bought me a little one-gallon brew kit for home brewing. He was like, “Oh, you'll totally have fun with this.” And it had all the ingredients in it and everything. And to be honest, it sat in my closet for like six months before I finally pulled it out to do anything with it. And it was really funny because, you know, I did it with my fiancé. We were brewing together, and it was like, Okay, it comes with the grains. It comes with the hops and the yeast and the fermenter and all the pieces and parts and everything, and it's reusable. So, I was like, Yes, this is going to be great. And the box said that it was a pale ale, and my favorite style is an IPA--pale ale--because I like those hoppy beers. So, I was like, Okay, this is going to be great. Awesome. The first time we brewed, it was kind of a disaster because we, first off, we didn't realize how many like pots and how much water we would need to do all of this. And we're like brewing in my little kitchen on our electric stove, which is terrible for brewing because the temperature doesn't stay even. And so we, at the end of the day, we've got like ten--we didn't start until eight o'clock at night, which is dumb. I don't know why, but it was so--we had pots and pans all over the place. Everything's a mess. And then, as we were taking our oil and putting it into our ice bath to cool it down again, the fire alarm goes off in our building. And we live in an apartment. It's a very loud, noisy, can't really get away from it kind of thing. So we had to go outside. So my first ever beer is sitting in the sink crashing. It's really close to the temperature that I need to take it out, fire alarm’s going off, you know, my bird is freaking out. We only moved into this apartment like a month before. So, it was, it was just a disaster. So, we went outside but came back in right when we came in and beer was at the perfect temperature. Okay, great. So took it out, fermented it, bottled it, the whole nine yards. It didn't turn out bad. It was drinkable. We called it The False Alarm. ‘Cause we were like, Eh, this turns out crappy? Huh. False alarm. But we, it turned out okay. It did not taste like a pale ale. It tasted more like a Hef (Hefeweizen), which I was a little bit upset about. But, I guess you kind of can't blame it because the kit that we got said it was a pale ale, but the ingredients themselves, it was literally a bag that said malt, yeast, hops. Like I have no idea what kind of yeast, what kind of malt, what kind of hops--don't know how fresh they are or anything like that. So, that was the first round, which, like I said, it turned out drinkable. We learned a lot. So, the second time we tried, we went to the Home Brew Mart just because that was the closest home brew store to us at that time. And it was really convenient because we didn't really know what we were doing and really just kind of, there's like a cooking side to beer and then a science side to beer. We were really just trying to make something drinkable. I have no idea what alcohol content it was, you know, gravity. I had no idea. I wasn't really worried about that at that time. So, we went to Ballast Point—Home Brew Mart--and they're really useful there. We said, Well, we want to brew an Irish red ale next. And they said, Okay. So they went and found a recipe. They scaled it down to one gallon for us because most people brew in five gallons. I just don't have the space for that so we only do one gallon. So, they helped us get all of that set up, so get home brewed it, turned out great. My fiancé says that it rivals the Red Trolley Ale, the Karl Strauss. I don't necessarily think I would go that far, but it was, it was pretty good. So that was fun. We're in our fifth batch now. We're doing an IPA this time, so we'll see how it goes. But I freaked out a little bit because I had--all the other styles that I've done besides the first one have all been dark styles. So, the malts have been really dark, and then when you put it in the fermenter you get a little bit of crud on the top of the fermenter, but it was always dark because that's what the malts were. So, this last time, I checked on it--just a couple of weeks ago--I checked on it, and I had a little bit of a heart attack because there's all this gunk at the top, but it's kind of like greenish a little bit. And I have to like dry hop my beer, and I'm like, Oh my God, I don't want to open this. It's going to be--I'm going to infect it. If it's not already. I thought there was mold on the top or something. I thought I was going to have to throw it away. I was so heartbroken because this is the first IPA we've tried to brew since the disastrous pale ale that wasn't a pale ale. But you know, I went online and posted on my little home brew forum and everybody was like, No, it's fine. You're totally good. That’s fine. So, we're supposed to bottle that this weekend. So, we'll see how that goes. I guess it's going to be a mystery in two weeks to see if it turned out well or not. So, that's kind of how I got started in beer and in home brewing. And then, when I started my career as a financial professional, it was really like, Okay, well anybody could be my client, but who do I really want to focus on? And literally my thought process was, Well, I like the people that work at breweries. I like to drink beer. I'd like to have an excuse to go drink beer while I'm working. So, I guess I'm going to target the beer industry, which I did. I cold called some breweries to try to do more like a financial wellness type program for the employees. I joined Pink Boots kind of not really knowing what it was but still getting that it was women and beer. And because I was working with breweries at the time and had a couple of clients that worked at breweries, I was able to say, Well, I am technically in the industry, which is why they let me in. So that was a big bonus. And that's really expanded a lot of just being someone who likes beer to actually feeling like I'm a little bit more part of the industry, a little bit more in the know and in the loop about different breweries, and who's doing what. At this point, all of my friends are, you know, they come to me all the time like, “What kind of beer should I drink?” You know, they like to go to breweries with me and try all kinds of different stuff. So that's been really fun to kind of get both sides of it--the home brewing side and the more industrial side of it--because I feel like there's a lot of overlap, but at the same time, not quite as much. I know one of the questions on here is your with QUAFF (Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity) and other brewing groups. So, part of when I was looking to get into brewery industries, I thought, Okay, home brew groups would be a good place to go. So, the first one that I actually went to was the one up here in Escondido, the Society of Barley Engineers. So I first went to that meeting and it was nothing like I'd ever been at before, you know? (Conversation with waitress) What was I saying? So I went to the Society of Barley Engineers, you know, kind of talked with some of the other people that were there. It was kind of funny because I realized very quickly walking into the room that I was one of the only women with a room full of, you know, 40 people. Um, there's maybe two or three women in there, but most of it is other older men and— 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:20.000 --older men— 00:11:20.000 --> 00:14:25.000 Yeah. They're mostly older men. I mean, there's a couple of young guys in there, but they're mostly older. And when I was kind of asking around and chatting a little bit beforehand, I realized that a lot of them are more of the analytical science-y types, like the engineers and IT people and this and that and the other. So that was kind of interesting to realize. And I just remember, I was talking with this one guy, and we were having a really great conversation. It was my first meeting there. I was by myself, just kind of wandering around, talking to people. And after we'd been talking for ten minutes or so, a good amount of time, he goes, So, why are you here? I’m like, Well, I don't understand. What do you mean why am I here? It's a home brew club, like I'm here to contribute and get some knowledge and, you know, kind of see what's up. And he said something to the effect of like, Does your, does your husband brew, or does your boyfriend brew or something? And like, in that moment, I know that I don't even know what my face looked like, but in my head, like I was just shocked. Like, no, I'm the home brewer actually. I'm the one that brews everything. I'm the head brewer in the house. You know, my fiancé helps me because I make him, but not necessarily because this is what he's interested in. So, that was a little bit weird. And it just, it struck me as kind of funny that that's like--we were having this wonderful conversation, you know, totally nothing out of the ordinary. And then--but in his mind, it was just too weird. Like, he couldn't imagine why a woman would be there without some other male figure. And I did go and talk to the other women that were at that meeting afterwards, just because at that point, it was like, okay, there's three of us here. But they were kind of the same thing that that guy had assumed. They were there with their husband. They were not necessarily there because that was their hobby. It was, you know, their joint hobby. And so they came, but they really deferred to their husband to kind of take the lead on that. So that was a little bit interesting. And then, of course, because QUAFF is much bigger than Society of Barley Engineers, a lot of them were also in QUAFF. So, that was how I found out about QUAFF. And then when I found out about QUAFF, I found out about SUDS, the sorority counterpart to QUAFF. So, I haven't been to another home brewers club meeting besides SUDS since then. So, I haven't been to a main QUAFF meeting before, but from what I understand, it's structured a lo, like how the Society of Barley Engineers is, where there's a lot of beer sharing and talking about the scientific numbers specifics, because apparently that's the kind of crowd that gets drawn into home brewing. So, that was kinda’ my experience with home brew clubs is it was just very weird to realize that other people were looking at me and wondering what I was doing there, as opposed to just, oh, this is another person that's brewing and here to share knowledge. So that was a little bit weird. 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:26.000 Yeah. That would be. 00:14:26.000 --> 00:16:44.000 Yeah. So, there's just a couple of other weird things that have stuck out to me about that, particularly the way that men have interacted with me when I'm in a brewery. Like I know that the bar that I was telling you about before that had the $3 Kill the Keg nights, I mean, I was pretty much a regular. Every week, I would go. I would always invite some of my friends. If they didn't come, whatever, I'm still going to go and try everything and take advantage of that. So, and it's really cute. They have got a bar, but they've got the entire sitting area. So, I knew that I was--a friend was joining me that night. So, we wanted to sit at the bar. I got there before her. So, I was standing at the bar trying to get one of the bartenders’ attention to order, and it's the guy sitting next to me and talking to his friends. I say, hey, you know, can I look at the beer menu? Sure. They gave it to me. So I'm kind of like looking through it. And then the guy next to me, he's like, Oh, if you're looking for a good recommendation, I would go with the Grapefruit Sculpin, it's really good. And it was just weird because one, I wasn't talking to him, I asked him for the beer menu. I don't need his recommendations. I mean, at that point, I probably know more about beer than he does. Like, I don't need his recommendation. I know exactly what I want. And second off, he kind of showed that he really wasn't that into beer just because I feel like if you're really into beer, of course, you've had Grapefruit Sculpin, you know. That's kind of one of the main staples of San Diego. It's Ballast Point, it's Sculpin, it's grapefruit, but, you know, everybody's had that. So, it was just, it was weird that I didn't ask him for any recommendations. I made it pretty clear. I didn't want to talk to him. He's, you know, pretty obviously like a good twenty years older than me. He's there with his friends. So, I don't know what possessed him to feel like he needed to recommend this to me when--and if you're going to recommend something to me, like, don't make it be Grapefruit Sculpin. I mean, there's thirty beers on this tap list. There's so many other interesting options and you pick Grapefruit Sculpin? (Conversation with waitress) So, I mean, and that's not necessarily the brewing community, it's just kind of the crowd that goes to-- 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:49.000 Breweries. Just him relying on his prior (word inaudible) 00:16:49.000 --> 00:21:48.000 Yeah. Exactly. You know, I'm sure that if I hadn't known anything about beer, it probably would have been more of an opportunity to strike up a conversation with him. But because I'm like, Eh, you know, I don't need your help. I don't need your recommendations. I really don't care what you think, honestly. I'm not talking to you. And so that was, that was a little bit-- that was one of the moments that really stuck in my head is like, Oh, wow, this is, you know, I think it's totally normal. Of course, I walk up to a bar and order a beer, and I know exactly what I want, but just because I'm a woman, most people are not going to assume that I know what I want, that I know what I'm talking about. A little bit in line with the brewing thing--I was talking with a group of friends. We were around--there was some acquaintances that I talked to a few times, didn't really know super well, and somebody else in the group had started talking about home brewing. And one of the guys is like, Oh yeah, you know, I go to this store and that store. And so I inserted myself into the conversation, and we were talking about different stores and styles and what he preferred in brewing equipment, what I had, and this and that and the other. And, again, same kind of deal as the home brew club. We'd had a good ten-minute conversation, and then he's like, So does your, I mean, is your fiancé brewing? Like, is your husband brewing? You know, basically that same question is like, he, even after talking with me about all of these different home brewing things, he just couldn't believe that it was me that was doing that. He assumed that I was just kind of tagging along on my significant other's hobby. I'm like, What if I don't have a boyfriend? I don't have a husband? I mean, I do, but you know, what if I don't? So, it's just--and this was a guy that--he's similar in age to me, he hangs out with a lot of the same friends that I do, who I would basically consider to be very equitable when it comes to that kind of stuff. But that was just his assumption. And, and it was so funny because as soon as he said it, I knew that as soon as it left his mouth, he was just like, Oh no, I shouldn't have said that, kind of foot-in-mouth syndrome a little bit. But it's, you know, it's that kind of thinking that that really makes me want to continue in the brewery industry and not necessarily get discouraged by it or upset by it. It's a little bit weird and off putting when it happens, because you know, those are the first two times it happened, and I'm sure it's not going to be the last two times, but it'll happen. Especially if I continue to get more and more into the industry and everything, but that's, it's kind of the weird thing is knowing, going into these kinds of things, that other people are going to assume that I have never done this before. I don't know what I'm doing, when it's the exact opposite. I think a lot of people--and a lot of my friends have told me--Quite frankly, there are people that like beer, there are people that love beer. And then there's where you are, which is on a completely different level, taking it to the next extreme. And there's a lot of other people in San Diego that take it to the next extreme, ‘cause that's kind of the city's thing, but very interesting. Interesting reactions I've had with--and it's always men--like I've never had another woman be like, Oh, where's your husband? Why are, you know--I've never been to a SUDS meeting or a Pink Boots meeting, where I'm expected to have a male counterpart with me, and that's my justification for being there. You know, it's never been, I need to have somebody else that's doing this with me to come. It's just, Oh, we're all women, we're all beer aficionados, let's get together and talk about beer in a place where we're not going to get that weird kind of, What are you doing here? Who are you with? Where's your man basically kind of thing. I mean, and because I started not that long ago, these are recent things like that interaction with the acquaintance with my friend group, that only happened four months ago. So I think it's getting better. I think a lot of people are just like, as soon as he said the words, he was like, Oh no, that's not, I shouldn't have said that. So, I think more people are becoming accustomed to the idea that there are women in brewing that are home brewers and do it at their own accord. Not because it's their significant others’ hobby. But obviously there's still room to grow into that. You know, it's still very masculine. It's still considered very masculine, which I don't really understand because it's basically cooking. I'm not sure how that one really gets explained away. But that's kind of where I feel like it's gonna’ get better, but it's probably going to take a long time. I will probably continue to get those kinds of weird, like, What are you doing here? kind of questions. Probably for a long while until more women start popping up. 00:21:48.000 --> 00:22:00.000 I think as long as you take it gracefully and it's another opportunity to educate, you know, it's like, that's one thing about craft beer lovers. They do like to educate the non-craft beer drinkers. 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:06.000 Oh brewers love to hear themselves talk. Me included. (Laughter) 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:20.000 So, where do you--I mean--you have such a small system now. Do you see in the future moving up to a larger system? Or are you happy with the size you're producing because it's enough to drink and enjoy and then on to the next thing? 00:22:20.000 --> 00:23:52.000 I'm kind of on the fence because at first, I thought, Well, a gallon of beer, that's enough for me to drink and give a couple of bottles to my friends. So, I thought, That's fine. But then once I actually started getting into it, and my friends started hearing about it, of course, everybody wants to try it. And then my office wants to try it. And then my friends of friends want to try it. So, at first, I thought, Well, five gallons of beer is a lot to try to get rid of, but now I realize that it would be very easy to get rid of five gallons of beer. Eventually when I have the space, I'd like to upgrade to a bigger system and start doing the five gallons. But at the same time, I'll probably keep doing one gallons just because I can do all grain. If I had a five-gallon system, I can't do an all grain recipe with five gallons of beer. There's just too much grain to fit into a pot humanly. So, I bought several bigger pots so that I can do all grain for my one-gallon batches. So, extracts are kind of a--I've never done an extract beer. I know that there are ways to do like a half-extract, half-grain kind of recipe. So, eventually when I--our plan is to buy a house in the area, and then, of course, once we own a house and have enough space, then I'd be more than happy to start brewing on a bigger system. But for now, space-wise, and because I do like the all grain--I think that's a lot of fun to actually take it the very first step of doing the grain. So, we'll see where it goes. It's kind of up in the air right now. Going both ways. 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:53.000 Keep your options open— 00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:55.000 Exactly. Exactly. 00:23:55.000 --> 00:24:11.000 Okay. So, let's see. And you did mention with the Spanish beers, how they all tasted the same, like bread. I find that really interesting. Did you, while you were in Spain, did you have a chance to go outside of Spain and maybe head closer to Germany and experience any beers there? 00:24:11.000 --> 00:25:43.000 I'm kind of kicking myself because, you know, when I was living in Spain-- (conversation with waitress) When I was in Spain, I wasn't necessarily as into beer as I am now, so I didn't go to Germany. I didn't go to any of those big, you know, beer-producing countries, which I’m kind of upset about now. You know, the next trip that we go to Europe, we're definitely going to do that. My sister is studying abroad in the Czech Republic, so we're going to visit her and go to Belgium and Germany and kind of do a little beer tour. I did have a couple of craft breweries in Spain. They're kind of few and far between, but there was one--I forgot what it was called--but there was one that was kind of near Madrid that our local bar got a couple of bottles, and they had three options. It was a Hef, which is basically what everything tastes like. But a little bit better ‘cause it's, you know, it's a craft beer, it's not the local well drink. And they had a red ale, I think, and a wheat ale. So, nothing like the IPAs, you know, down here and everything. So, I didn't do a lot of beer drinking when I was there outside of whatever was available, which you know, now--I went to Spain, came back, and then got into beer. So, now that I'm into beer, I really want to go back and kind of try some of these other places, too. 00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:50.000 Now what makes a red ale? Just realizing that I don't brew, so— 00:25:50.000 --> 00:26:47.000 I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the malts. I feel like whenever I go places, I see a lot of different variations on a red ale. Um, I mean, like when we brewed one, we've brewed an Irish red ale, which has a particular grain profile and not very hoppy at all, much more malty bready kind of tasting, but still as that kind of caramel-y taste to it, which is why it's red ale because you're using darker malts. So, they end up being a little bit more roasted, a little bit more caramel-y, more on the sweeter side. So that's--but I've also seen things that say just red ale or there's a Flanders red ale. So, there's all these weird variations of it, and my entire thing about beer styles is so long as you can justify why it's in that style, I mean, anything goes really. I’ve had pale ales that I would say is an IPA, and IPAs that I would probably call a pale ale or something different. 00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:50.000 The categories do seem somewhat subjective. 00:26:50.000 --> 00:27:14.000 Exactly. I know that there are technically like hard, fast rules for what's supposed to be in which style if you're going by like GABF (Great American Beer Festival) standards, but nobody's keeping track of the big breweries. I mean, I think it's a call, their style, so it's whatever they want. Basically, just kind of cross your fingers and hope that it kinda’ sorta’ is what you were expecting when you order it. 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:16.000 And enjoy it, no matter what. 00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.000 Yeah, exactly. 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:27.000 And then, on the Kill the Keg that you mentioned, were they brewing in house, or were these kegs from various brewers? 00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:58.000 Yeah, they were from various different breweries. They mostly did San Diego breweries, but they would have a couple of one-off ones from further away. Actually, funnily enough, right around the same time that I moved out of that area and stopped going to that bar, they did set up a little brewing system in the back. So, they're brewing their own beer now. I haven't tried any of it. But we’ll—eventually, I keep meaning to make my way back over there. It's right next to SDSU. So, there's, there's no reason why I can't just drive down the street and check it out. 00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:04.000 And now have you gone to White Labs and tried their taster flights, where they have the same beer brewed with several different yeasts? 00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:15.000 Yeah. That's crazy. I was so upset when I first heard about White Labs and how they do the different yeast stream tasters because they close at eight o'clock, and I'm usually still working— 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:18.000 And that’s why you were upset. You weren’t upset about the fact they experiment with different yeasts. 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:53.000 Definitely not. I was upset that I couldn't manage to find time to go to them. So, then when I found out that the SUDS meetings are all at White Labs, I was like, Yes, sign me up. I'm going to do that. I love that. I feel bad because my, you know, I've been to White Labs now several times. My fiancé has not, but it's just because it closes so early, you know, it's hard for--We live in UTC, so it's not that far, but by the time I get home, and we both change and we get ready to go and we eat dinner. And then by the time we get over there, it's like 7:30 and it’s last call. 00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:55.000 That doesn't leave you any time to actually enjoy. 00:28:55.000 --> 00:29:21.000 Right. I mean, because I'm usually done with work so late, we actually tend to pick the breweries that are open until ten because the breweries either seem to close at eight or ten. There's not a lot of in between. So we basically pick the ones that go until ten because, you know, I don't want to get to a brewery and it be last call right when I get there, you know? I’m the kind of person that sits there and drinks one beer in three hours. 00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:23.000 And then you feel guilty keeping the staff late. 00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:41.000 Exactly. Exactly. So we will look for the ones that are open at 10, but we will make--this Saturday, actually, we both have our days free for once, so we'll probably make it over to White Labs, but there’s so many other breweries. So we'll see. 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:46.000 Yeah. How many breweries would you say you've been to at this point, at least the local? 00:29:46.000 --> 00:30:14.000 At least the local ones. Gosh, I have no idea. I'm going to throw out at least thirty. We tend to go back to the ones that we like a lot. So, Kilowatt’s one of our favorites, we go there pretty often. Ballast Point for a long time--we were both pretty hooked on. Still one of my favorite breweries—I’m a little bit mad that they sold out--but I'll enjoy them until the quality changes at least, you know? 00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:17.000 So, you haven't noticed a change in their quality since they sold out? 00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:18.000 No, not yet— 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:19.000 Taken over. 00:30:19.000 --> 00:31:17.000 Right, exactly. It was since they were bought out, taken over or whatever you want to call it. And I, I know that a lot of the people--when they first sold--a lot of the people that worked there were like, No, the original people are going to stay. The brewers are going to stay. All the recipes are still there. So, you know, I give it like five-ish years maybe until the quality changes. I mean, I could be totally wrong. I, you know, I really have no idea. It was so recent ago that I feel like they haven't had enough time to do a ton of changes yet, but you know, Home Brew Mart is Ballast Point. I mean, that's how Ballast Point started, so they've got the Ballast Point tasting room there. So, I always get Ballast Point beer, while I wander around and look at all the other equipment and dream about the things that I wish I had the space to do. But I haven't noticed a significant change. I guess we'll see as time goes on. 00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:40.000 And you mentioned that you have a forum that you get online with. And so, you've got the face-to-face through the home brewers and Pink Boots. Do you find--how do you compare the support you get between virtual and in-person, barring the male response to you as a woman brewer? 00:31:40.000 --> 00:33:42.000 Yeah. I honestly--it's pretty even. If I had a question and I went to one of the home brew clubs or Pink Boots, I'm sure they'd answer it, and they would give me the entire explanation as to why. Same kind of thing online. I think it's a little bit more interesting online because different regions have different styles and opinions, and I feel like when you're talking to people in the same home brew club all the time, like they all pretty much use the same techniques probably. But when I go online and I'm talking with other people that maybe, you know, they have different equipment than I have accessible, or maybe they get different ingredients because they can get different hops or this and that and the other. So, I mean, the support is definitely still there. I think it's a little bit easier online to cheat just because no--it's very anonymous--so nobody really knows who I am or if I'm a woman or a man or old or young or whatever. So, it's a little bit more non-judgmental online, I would say. If I ask a specific question, I'm going to get a specific answer for what I was asking versus if I'm talking to someone in person and I ask a question, they might give me the more basic answer when I'm looking for the intermediate answer. You know, again, just based off of appearances, like young woman. So that definitely plays into it when I'm talking with people, who don't know me super well. But when you're online, I mean, people assume that if you're on this home brewing subreddit (online forum) that you kind of know what you're talking about, or at least you know enough to have found your way onto this website. And I've definitely asked some stupid questions, but everybody's been really nice about it in both spheres. That's something that I do really like about home brewers is that there are people that know a lot, and you can get really, really into it, but everybody is very, very kind to the newbies. You know, it's very collaborative. Everybody wants more people to start home brewing just because, you know, it's fun. It's not like there's any competition. 00:33:42.000 --> 00:34:01.000 Yeah, I have to say, I have found the community extremely welcoming and very warm and just wonderful. But of the home brewers, you know, is there anybody talking about going out and opening their own brewery, or is everybody pretty much happy with what they're doing? 00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:23.000 Most people are happy with what they're doing. Um, which, you know, being in the finance side of things as my career, I kinda like that. I don't hear a lot of people (Conversation with waitress) Um, you had asked me about— 00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:26.000 Home brewers starting their own— 00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:56.000 Oh, starting their own breweries. I haven't heard a lot of that just because I feel like a lot of people realize that you don't just get to brew beer all day. You do have to actually start a new business, which I feel like a lot of people realize is not nearly as easy. I mean, you can make the best beer in the world, but unless you know how to run a business, you're not gonna’ make it. So, I personally don't have a lot of home brewing friends that are thinking of starting their own brewery, just because it's--that's a life commitment right there. 00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:59.000 Just getting through the ABC (Alcoholic Beverage Control) seems to be a life— 00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:32.000 I mean, it's just insane. And then you have to figure out how to brew on these industrial systems and balancing your income versus your expenses. I mean, most small businesses are not profitable for the first three years, at least. So, if you're going to be opening a brewery, that's a big commitment. So, the people that I hang out with are not necessarily looking to go that route. You know, they just want to brew at home and have their own beer to drink and enjoy the process. Not really trying to make it big. 00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:42.000 Do any of them seem to have ramped up their systems just to meet the demand of friends and family like you're talking about—that it would be easy to brew five gallons and get rid of it? 00:35:42.000 --> 00:36:39.000 I don't know. I feel like a lot of people start on five gallons. So, I kinda’ went the opposite direction, where I started on one gallon. I don't know a lot of other people that started on a one gallon and that kept with it. I feel like a lot of people get those one-gallon brew kits for gifts. And then kind of like what I did, you know, I threw it in the closet for six months and then didn't look at it again. And it was only through sheer determination and my friend that gave it to me, his persistence on the Why can’t I drink this beer? Why isn't it done yet? When are you going to start it? When are you going to do this? So, he kind of pushed me a little bit more into making it a priority. At first I was like, Oh, this is just some weird, stupid hobby. I'll try it out. It'll probably be fine. I'll probably do it once, realistically, and then never look at the thing again. But when I made the first batch, I was like, Okay, this did not turn out the way I wanted it to, what did I do wrong? What can I do the next time so that it does turn out the way that I want it to do. 00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:41.000 So you're seeing a challenge in the brewing. 00:36:41.000 --> 00:37:34.000 Yeah, definitely. It’s not very consistent because I keep picking different styles for every single batch, so it's not easy to compare everything. And also, I only have a one-gallon kit, so I usually drink all the beer. And then by the time I go to brew another batch and that batch is done. I mean, the first batch was gone two weeks ago. We drank it. It's been fun so far, but, uh, I don't think a lot of people that start out with those one-gallon kits really stick with it. So, I don't know a ton of people that have upgraded, but I imagine there's gotta’ be people out there that have done the same thing. You can buy refill kits online, so it's gotta’ be a thing. I went to Ballast Point instead because I wanted to actually talk to a real person and kind of look at everything, but you can order kits online. 00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:47.000 Now when you go to Home Brew Mart or any of the other supply stores, do they sell set quantities or can you buy, you know, like you said, they downsize the recipe for you. So you don't wind up with a lot of leftover materials that you've got to deal with. 00:37:47.000 --> 00:38:31.000 Right. Well, with the barley and the grains and stuff I don't because they sell that by weight. But like for example, I have three different hop pellets varieties in my fridge, because since I'm only brewing on a one-gallon kit, I'll only need half an ounce of hops, but they sell them in five-ounce containers. So now I'm kind of stuck with the leftovers. So that's kinda’ my next project is Okay, looking for new recipes that I can kind of recycle some--like the leftover yeast, you can't really keep ‘cause it's yeast. So, you kind of have to use it and pitch it, which is a bummer. But I do have extra hops all over. They’ve kind of taken over the fridge. They're getting a little bit out of control, but— 00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:40.000 Well, or go back and brew some of those earlier recipes you did to see, you know, if you (word inaudible) a little bit here, is it going to turn out the same? Be even better. 00:38:40.000 --> 00:39:02.000 Exactly. Like I said, that Irish red turned out real good. So, we'll--I kept the recipe. We didn't change the recipe at all. My fiancé is kind of like, Well, why don't we throw this in it? And why don't we throw that in it? I'm like, No, no, this is the first time we've tried this style. Let's just follow the recipe and make sure that it turns out right first off. And then we can, then we can try to experiment a little bit more. 00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:06.000 Is he the one that wants to try to challenge the recipes a little bit? 00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:34.000 He's the cook, so he's the one that's in the kitchen all the time, and it's kind of his kitchen. He doesn't follow recipes. He basically just makes stuff and throws other things in. So he kind of wants to do the beer in the same way. And I'm much more like, No, we gotta’ follow the recipe. I want this to turn out the way I wanted it. So, it's an interesting dichotomy, but you know, again, I'm the head brewer and he's the assistant. So, I get to make the calls at the end of the day as to what's going in the beer. 00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:38.000 Exactly. Okay. Well, I think that covered all of my questions. 00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:39.000 Perfect. 00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:45.000 So, if you have something else you want to add? I think you've been very informative. 00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:48.000 I don't know— 00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:50.000 What's going on for the home brewers-- 00:39:50.000 --> 00:40:01.000 Well, I hope it’s a useful entry at least. Will go forward into time and provide some insight. But yeah, that's about all I've got. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CullLynda_DownieJudith_2017-05-11.xml CullLynda_DownieJudith_2017-05-11.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cull, Lynda. Interview May 11th, 2017. Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Lynda Cull on May 11, 2017, at Stone World Bistro and Gardens, Escondido, CA. Cull is a home brewer and financial consultant specializing in the beer industry. In this interview, Lynda discusses how she got into home brewing and her career as a financial professional in the brewing industry. She speaks to her experience with brewing groups in the San Diego area and as a woman in the brewing industry. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-068 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lynda Cull Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.). San Diego (Calif.), Spain Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Home brewing Brewchive(r) Community history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f9051e89eaf3907515a0840ab7845661.pdf b10d29ee67186d73e18da3f3f54052eb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. 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In this interview, Lynda discusses how she got into home brewing and her career as a financial professional in the brewing industry. She speaks to her experience with brewing groups in the San Diego area and as a woman in the brewing industry. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lynda Cull Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-11 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" title="In copyright">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CullLynda_DownieJudith_2017-05-11_ADAtranscript Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Home brewing Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.). San Diego (Calif.), Spain Brewchive(r) Community history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Lucy Wheeler Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Susan Cupaiuolo OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CupaiuoloSusan_WheelerLucy_2023-02-23_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Cupaiuolo, Susan. Interview February 23, 2023 SC027-24 0:41:03 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral histories collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Blueberries Cherimoya Orchards -- California -- Vista Tree crops Vista (Calif.) Susan Cupaiuolo Lucy Wheeler mp4 CupaiuoloSusan_WheelerLucy_2023-02-23_access.mp4 1:|13(1)|23(5)|31(7)|40(8)|47(3)|54(11)|61(1)|69(8)|77(9)|85(8)|95(3)|104(3)|111(7)|120(11)|130(14)|140(12)|148(9)|158(12)|166(1)|174(11)|184(6)|192(9)|204(13)|213(2)|222(12)|232(2)|240(9)|247(11)|255(12)|263(6)|271(8)|281(3)|289(5)|301(2)|313(2)|328(3)|336(10)|367(2)|387(7)|401(10)|415(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/7519142da692856f004bf07f963d4a93.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction about North County para-agriculture / Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo’s story The interview begins with an introduction to North County’s para-agriculture, which has been largely overlooked despite San Diego making up a large portion of the county’s agriculture. Susan Cupaiuolo discusses the life of her husband Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo, whom was called “Nino.” She explains that Nino grew up in Milan, Italy during World War II. Nino did not have a farming background. Instead, Nino worked in the field of international marketing and worked in the United States and Europe for forty years. She also explains that Nino loved growing a garden in the Orange County home that she shared with his first wife. Nino passed away in 2020 at the age of eighty-six years old. agriculture ; farming ; farms ; Independent farming ; Milan (Italy) ; Orange County (Calif.) ; para-agriculture 235 Marriage to Cupaiuolo/ Purchasing the farm Susan Cupaiuolo recounts the early days of her marriage to Nino Cupaiuolo, where they lived in Michigan before moving to Orange County, CA. She also recalls when Nino first introduced her to the avocado fields in Vista, CA that they would eventually turn into their cherimoya farm, The Primavera Orchard. agriculture ; Cherimoya ; farming ; farms ; Independent farming ; Michigan ; Orange County (Calif.) ; para-agriculture ; The Primavera Orchard ; Vista (Calif.) 456 Managing a farm/ Background on cherimoyas Susan Cupaiuolo discusses how she and Nino developed and managed a cherimoya farm. She explains that managing a farm is a long-term investment and that farmers may sometimes invest a lot of money, time, research, and other resources into their farm in order to see results. Cupaiuolo also discusses cherimoyas, their origins, and tips on growing and pollinating cherimoyas in the Southern Californian climate. Cupaiuolo had also brought a few cherimoyas to the interview, which she displays to the camera. Agriculture ; Cherimoya ; Ecuador ; Farming ; Farming techniques ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Peru ; Subtropical fruit ; Vista (Calif.) 850 Local resources Susan Cupaiuolo discusses local resources that she has found beneficial in her experience in farming. She recommends programs such as the University of California Cooperative Extension for soil analysis labs, as well as organizations such as the California Rare Fruit Growers, the California Cherimoya Association, and the Master Gardner Association for their workshops and other resources. She highlights the University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department and the South Coast Research and Extension Center for their agricultural research. Cupaiuolo also stresses the importance of the internet for making research on farming easier and more accessible to the general public. Agriculture ; California Rare Fruit Growers ; Cherimoya ; Farming ; Farming techniques ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Irvine (Calif.) ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Para-agriculture ; Research ; San Diego (Calif.) ; Soil analysis ; South Coast Research and Extension Center ; The California Cherimoya Association ; The County of San Diego Cooperative Extension ; The Farm and House Advisor ; The Master Gardener Association ; The United States Department of Agriculture ; The University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department ; University of California Cooperative Extension 1047 Selling produce and relationships with customers Susan Cupaiuolo discusses the business-side of managing a farm. Independently-owned grocery stores were an important avenue to individual farmers like the Cupaiuolos. She also discusses other avenues for where individual farmers can earn revenue and connect to the community, and recounts their experiences at farmers markets, free tasting events, and delivering to customers directly. She explains that their experience working with customers in these capacities helped build relationships and loyalty. Farm tours also facilitated socialization within their community. Agriculture ; Business ; Cherimoya ; Connecting with community ; Customers ; Farming ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Socialization in farming ; Vista (Calif.) 1494 Research and record-keeping in farming Susan Cupaiuolo discusses record-keeping strategies for farming. Specifically, record-keeping was beneficial to the Cupaiuolos for documenting their blueberry harvests. She explains that Nino collaborated with the Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program and the Farm Bureau and documented the blossoms, production, weight, soil, temperature, and varieties of blueberries. Cupaiuolo describes her role in blueberry record-keeping as financial and also explains the profit they made from selling the fruit. Agriculture ; Blueberries ; Farming ; Farming techniques ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Peru ; Record-keeping ; Research ; The Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program ; The Farm Bureau ; Vista (Calif.) 1835 Selling the farm/ Innovation in farming Susan Cupaiuolo briefly discusses the process of selling the farm to a new family after Nino’s death. She also discusses the importance of innovation in farming and explains that their farm was ahead of technological innovations in terms of the installation of an advanced irrigation system, solar panels, and a cell tower in the early 2000s. She recalls Nino’s artistic mind and speculates that his creativity allowed him to create these advanced designs for their farm. Agriculture ; Farming ; Farming irrigation ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Innovation in farming ; Irrigation ; Para-agriculture ; Technological innovations ; The Primavera Orchard ; Vista (Calif.) 2160 Advice to future farmers/ Agriculture economy Susan Cupaiuolo briefly offers advice to individuals who may be interested in starting their own farm. She suggests when buying a farm, it is imperative to have an understanding of the history of farming, the labor needed to sustain a farm, and the current economy and real-estate market. She further discusses the economy of individual farming, especially the competition farmers face against one another. Advice ; Agriculture ; Agriculture economy ; Competition in farming ; Economy ; Farming ; Farming advice ; Farms ; Independent farming ; Para-agriculture ; Real estate market Moving image The Primavera Orchard was owned and operated by Giovanni and Susan Cupaiuolo from 1991 until Nino’s death in 2020 in Vista, California. It was a six acre peri-urban farm specializing in the growth, preparation, promotion and detailed hand-pollinated fruit from a variety of cherimoya trees. Cherimoya trees are a tropical fruit tree which will only grow in Southern California and are very expensive due to the complicated and dedicated care of the trees and cultivations. The Cupaiuolos later introduced blueberries to the area to provide this northern fruit into the local markets during the northern dormant season. Other fruits and vegetables were grown for personal use. Lucy Wheeler: Good afternoon. My name is Lucy Wheeler and it&#039 ; s February the 23rd, 2023. We&#039 ; re here to interview Susan-- Susan Cupaiuolo: Cupaiuolo. Wheeler: Kupaiyalo. Thank you. (Cupaiuolo chuckles) Uh, this is in behalf of the North County Oral History Initiative being put on by Cal State and San Marcos and the Museum of History here in San Marcos. The history of our North County--and just as a preliminary to your story, Susan--the county of San Diego is a very unique situation in that it&#039 ; s the ninth largest city in the United States, but it&#039 ; s in the community of the county. The fourth largest industry is agriculture, and most of that, or 70% of that, is soon to be in the North County. Part of that agricultural industry makes it a--well, it&#039 ; s the largest area in the United States with the most farms. Your story shows one of the areas of that agriculture which is kind of overlooked, and that is, in 2017 the county of San Diego estimated and actually counted that there were 5,000 small para-farmers, which is ten acres or less, and how they operate. And your story can bring us a wealth of information to that. So, with that beginning, tell us a little bit about yourself, your husband, where you were born, and what your interest in agriculture was. Cupaiuolo: (nods) I&#039 ; d be glad to give some background on this. My husband was Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo. He died in October 2020 at the height of the pandemic. Uh, he was 86 years old. He had been in declining health physically and cognitively, and I just wish that he were here to tell this adventure, but I&#039 ; ll do my best to--to share it. Um, I&#039 ; m going to call him &quot ; Nino.&quot ; He grew up in Milan, Italy during World War II. He had one brother. His father was from Naples and his mother from Sicily. Farming was not in his background, and, um, I&#039 ; m setting that up as making sure we don&#039 ; t have these assumptions about Italians who grew up on farms and have these big families, okay? Because that&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s not the--the way it was for him. He had a master&#039 ; s degree in international marketing, and he spoke four languages. He sold industrial instrumentation in Europe and in the United States for over forty years. His first wife was an American. She worked at the U.S. Consulate in Milan. She was from Riverside, and they eventually settled with their three children in Orange County. For the first time, they had a yard! You know. Growing up in Milan, apartment, maybe you have a balcony with some pots. But the garden that he had, and they had chickens and the kids loved it. He learned that he loved growing things. Nino and I met and married in Michigan, where I am from. I was teaching and he was working there selling to the auto industry. He was transferred again in 1988 and we moved to Orange County. So, how did a schoolteacher from western Michigan and an Italian end up with a six-acre farm in north San Diego County? Well, I have to say at this point that it was driven by Nino, who was looking for a place to enjoy his retirement. I was happy teaching in Huntington Beach, but his territory stretched from San Diego to L.A. and beyond and he was on the road a lot. On Friday, one Friday, in 1991, he was returning from San Diego and he stopped off at a--a nursery in North Vista and, um, when he arrived home he said, &quot ; I&#039 ; ve found where we&#039 ; re going to retire.&quot ; So, the next day we started looking, and we found two acres on a subdivided avocado grove off of Gopher Canyon Road. And the journey began! At first, we commuted to the property on the weekends, and it--it was--it was perfect. It was hectic, but it was perfect. The Fuerte avocados there were in decline, and they were alive but failing, because after the introduction of the Hass variety, the--the cultivar, um, Fuerte fell out of favor. So, the 45-acre grove was subdivided into two-to-four-acre plots and put up for sale. So, what do you do with aging avocado trees? You stop watering them because avocados need 40 inches of rain a year. So, it didn&#039 ; t take long. When the adjacent four acres became available, we were able to buy them as well and that included a grove of already-producing persimmons--Hachiyas and Fuyus. So, that gave us a place to start. We moved to the farm in 1994, fixed up a small house on the property, and over the next year we removed all of the metal irrigation pipes (chuckles) and those dead avocado trees. By the way, avocado wood makes great firewood. We were selling it and giving it away for years! Okay, enough background. What does it take to have a small farm? Well, besides resources like land and equipment and irrigation, you need physical energy and strength (chuckles) and a lot of knowledge based on research. And that would include--before you even get started--the microclimate, the soil, the water sources. And then you have to choose, based on that information, what to grow! Well, Nino wanted fruit trees. Okay. As I was saying, he was the driver of all of this (chuckles), so I was just along for the ride. But, he, in particular, wanted cherimoyas, and that was because he had the year before, out of curiosity, bought a cherimoya fruit at a market and he loved it. He saved the seeds, and he planted them in pots. In fact, there was a cherimoya tree on the property, right by the front door! After much research--this was in 1993--early days of the internet, okay? But, we learned that cherimoyas would do really well in our area. Not from seed, however. (indicates &quot ; no&quot ; with her left pointer finger, and clears her throat.) It--it took a big commitment, that&#039 ; s for sure, because choosing to grow trees requires a longer-term outlook. Depending on how much time and money you have, you have to, um, invest, because the trees will take three to five years, or more, to produce, while row crops, like flowers or microgreens, for example, they can be seasonal. It was a big decision. It was a certain amount of trial and error--grafting, pollinating, planting. But, as it&#039 ; s important to small farms in choosing a unique or niche product, not supplied (again indicated &quot ; no&quot ; with her finger) by larger farmers, it worked out! Now, at the time, that really wasn&#039 ; t our focus, but it proved to be a huge advantage. A little bit about cherimoyas. They&#039 ; re a subtropical fruit, native to the mountain valleys of Peru and Ecuador. It can be large, often heart-shaped. (Reaches for a fruit and holds it up for the camera while the camera pans in.) I can show you one. (Lays it back down, and begins to rub her hands together). They have overlapping scales--that&#039 ; s what people call them, anyway. But, inside, it is white, and it has a custardy texture and it tastes like pineapple, banana, papaya, and in some varieties, even a pear! (Holds up a book with header reading &quot ; Gallery of Subtropical Plants&quot ; and contains a photo of the fruit and a cherimoya tree as well as textual information. Camera pans in on the page with the fruit image.) Southern California provides the--the best conditions in the United States for growing cherimoyas. The largest plantings are near Santa Barbara where most of that fruit is exported to Asia. The season is late winter to spring, so depending on the variety, that&#039 ; s from November, December to March and April. The tricky thing (rubs her hands together) about growing cherimoyas is the pollination. Each blossom is both male and female, but bees are too big to enter this fleshy flower. To get full-sized fruit, hand pollination with a paintbrush is the key. It&#039 ; s labor intensive in June, July, and August. It&#039 ; s not difficult, but it is time consuming. Now, (looks to her left, towards the fruit) part of farming has to be knowing the microclimate and (clears her throat) in general, in San Diego, people know the difference between the--the cool coastal and the warmer inland valleys. But (rubs hands) even with careful research on the--on the property, it&#039 ; s--it can throw you some--some confusing conditions, because, uh, there are different temperatures. You can have diff--places with sun, and soil, and wind. On our property, which dropped off to a--a canyon, the temperature dropped dramatically, including frost, and the prevailing westerly winds were an issue. We were able to grow for ourselves in that canyon, apples, cherries, pears, fruits that needed a lot of chill time. But we weren&#039 ; t selling those. (clears her throat, plane can be heard in the background) We also ended up, though, having to plant a wind break to protect the cherimoyas (chuckles) that we had planted. Who knew! But, we chose wisely because we chose Satsuma tangerines, which proved to be--be-- very popular, so it all worked out. (clears her throat again) Some research was more scientific because soil and water can be tested for pH and salinity and minerals, and there are a lot of excellent resources out--out there that--that I need to, uh, recommend, because um,--I&#039 ; m going to read this just to make sure I get it correct--um, the University of California Cooperative Extension has the names of labs. Okay, you have to pay for them. But, especially soil analysis is--is important, because you need to understand the plants ability to absorb nutrients. You can even take them leaves from your plants, and they will analyze whether they are taking up nutrients as needed. I also want to recommend specific groups like--we had the California Rare Fruit Growers. There&#039 ; s a--a branch in North County and also one at Balboa Park. There&#039 ; s the California Cherimoya Association and other fruits have their Associations as well. And, of course, the United States Department of Agriculture. And I can&#039 ; t forget the Master Gardener Association, because they have workshops and blogs and so much information. And in the past 20 to 30 years, it&#039 ; s been easy to find information, easier, because of the internet. And whether you&#039 ; re planting, or pruning, or harvesting, a YouTube video can teach you (starts to chuckle) just about anything you want! And they&#039 ; re fun! So, research is easier. But I still have to say that contact with people is key. The University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department--that&#039 ; s called the U.C.A.N.R.--is including--includes the County of San Diego Cooperative Extension and the Farm and Home Advisor--that&#039 ; s by county. And--and another part of the U.C.A.N.R. is the South Coast Research and Extension Center in Irvine, and (clears throat) it&#039 ; s a living laboratory for U.C. scientists where they are conducting agricultural research. It&#039 ; s a 200-acre facility, where they have outdoor events and demonstrations and classrooms. They have a glasshouse there. And they also have a huge cherimoya collection of trees that is just beautiful. And, of course, that was our connection to that place, besides the great people who are there. So, relationships and talking about them, kind of brings me to the selling part of all of this, because when we had enough fruit to sell, the Vista Farmer&#039 ; s Market was a consideration. But Nino decided to try small, family-owned, independent grocers first. Not chains (indicates &quot ; no&quot ; with her left finger). They won&#039 ; t even talk to you. Even Sprouts won&#039 ; t buy from individual farmers. So, let&#039 ; s find places where they will buy locally. Now, farmer&#039 ; s markets do have advantages--meeting other farmers, learning about crops, meeting the public. But, they require labor time away from the farm and picking for unknown demand in advance. And that, with fruit on trees, is problematic. So as an experienced (chuckles) salesman, Nino knew to find out what the customer wanted, and he harvested by their needs! He would check their stock, or they would call. Sometimes he would deliver two to three times a week, especially during times like the Lunar New Year, things like that. That special attention is what builds relationships and loyalty. He also learned to sell by (chuckles) uniform size. They didn&#039 ; t want all different sizes of fruit. They wanted uniform. But then he had to be creative, too. And he was always making sure that he was interacting with the produce people at the store, whether they&#039 ; re the guys putting out the fruit or the managers, because that kind of connection does it all. So, (sighs) pre-pandemic, Nino was even doing free tastings at Frazier Farms which was one of his main sources, uh, sales--of sales. He--he would cut up (gestures cutting with a knife) cherimoyas and take them there and they weren&#039 ; t well known but once people tried them, they were going to buy. Now, at one point, customers would see Nino delivering and they would stop him in the parking lot, asking to buy fruit themselves. He declined right away, partly because of the amount that they wanted. He realized that they were going to be reselling and competing with his customer right there in the store. So, it would be also disruptive to have these people coming to the property and wanting to buy, so, no. But it did get Nino thinking about sharing the experience of the farm. MeetUp groups were starting at that time. They were the thing, like signing up online for different activities. So, we started having U-Picks. We set up two timeslots on Saturday mornings, where people could sign up online, and they would come and Nino would give a presentation on the farm and the different fruits, and I provided samples of fruit and preserves and--and cherimoya ice cream and recipes. Oh, they loved that! So, it was a success. Families came with their kids, mostly from San Diego proper, you know. They were city people. But they were enjoying an outing in the country, and they enjoyed the property. They loved picking the fruit. So, these are people who wanted their kids to know where fruit comes from! Wow! (laughs) And the kids especially liked picking the tangerines. We made a lot of friends over the ten years that we did that, and we got to watch those kids grow up. They--they also liked feeding my chickens. Now, some customers--I put that in quotes (gestures making quotation marks with her hands) &#039 ; cuz yes they were customers but they became friends and they would volunteer to come and help during the summer with the hand pollination and the--of the cherimoyas and so we--we had some--some really good connections that way. We even found a couple of paid workers from that group. Now, over the years, we had a lot of visitors to the farm. Um, usually by word of mouth or connections to the Farm Bureau, and that would include restaurant owners, especially Asian and South American, produce managers from independent grocers. I think of Barons Market, especially, because we had one produce manager from one store come and pretty soon all of the stores were buying from us. We even had wholesale produce managers (rubs hands together), um, specialty produce in the San Diego. They--they sell to the public, but they would come and--and visit and see the farm. And we also had students come to visit. They were from Cal Poly Pomona and there&#039 ; s a College of Agriculture Plant Sciences there, and they were taking a class. I--I remember Dr. Greg Partida, who retired in 2010, but he had a class on subtropical fruit production and he would bring his students on field trips to the farm. So, that socialization is so important because farming, even on a small farm, can be really isolating. There&#039 ; s so much to do, day-to-day. People, since the pandemic, working from home, have found out how strange that is, really, that instead of going to the office every day, they&#039 ; re--they&#039 ; re at home. And--and that&#039 ; s kind of like what it&#039 ; s--what it is to--to be a small farmer, too. I wanted to talk a little bit about, um, record keeping, because it&#039 ; s so impart--important in farming and with the advent of the internet and--and computers, it&#039 ; s changed a lot. But, it&#039 ; s still a--a beneficial skill set, whether you&#039 ; re talking about taxes, or income, or expenses, or irrigation, equipment, payroll, any of that. But, um, another use for--for keeping track of--of information is monitoring the production of the--the crops, whether it&#039 ; s by varieties, where they&#039 ; re growing on the property, the quality from year to year. And an example of this is really in--in Nino&#039 ; s participation in the--the Cooperative Extension&#039 ; s Blueberry Test Plot Program, which was twenty years ago. Now, traditionally blueberries were a cold weather plant that would go dormant every year. In California, the plants bloom year-round, and they wear themselves out. So, Nino, once again, wanted to plant things that no one else plants and there was a lot of research going on as to how to extend the blueberry&#039 ; s range. Through the Farm and Home Advisor Ramiro Lobo, Nino was given four plants each of nine different varieties of southern blueberries. The soil pH that we had was way too alkaline and it had to be augmented. Temperature had to be monitored. Pests considered. The Farm Bureau was very supportive throughout all of this. They even ended up building us a netted structure to keep the birds off. But, Nino was instrumental in monitoring and recording the blossoms, the fruit, the production for each plant. They called him Mr. Spreadsheet (both she and Wheeler chuckle). Well, Excel to the rescue, you know? Because, in--and--I--I have a--a photo of him here, if you&#039 ; d like to see, where he is, um, (shows a photo of Nino, camera pans in) taking the blossoms off of the blueberry plants. Now, why would he be doing that? You know? For two years, he did that, so that the young plants could use their energy to grow. And then he would take the berries from each variety and weigh them and--and count them, and that&#039 ; s how they decided which varieties would be the most productive in southern California. Now, there were other farmers doing that too, but in 2002, California produced two million pounds of blueberries. Okay. Twenty years later, 53.4 million pounds of blueberries, sixth in the United States. This boom is due to technological growing skills and adventurous producers, and he was part of all of that. My part with the blueberries was, (clears her throat) when I retired from teaching, then I was in charge of the blueberries. Okay. But think of it this way. Four dollars for six ounces (gestures as if telling a secret)--I was selling them at school. So, that translates to twelve dollars a pound. Now, what ev--other fruit is going to sell for twelve dollars a pound! In the past ten years, in the United States, the output of blueberries has tripled. And that&#039 ; s in the U.S. alone. And the main states are Washington, Georgia, and my home state, Michigan. So, why is that increased so much. Because of the research talking about antioxidants. So, in ten years, they have become really huge crop. Okay, today, what country do you think grows the most blueberries? I&#039 ; ll tell you. Peru! Is that somethin&#039 ; or what? Which, for me, is kind of a full circle because that&#039 ; s where cherimoyas are from. Okay. So, I have just a little bit more, because I sold the farm after Nino&#039 ; s death. I had three people interested. One couple wanted it as an investment, (said in nasal utterance) ehh. Another couple ended up buying a larger property in Valley Center. But, the--the family that I--I sold to love it there, and they&#039 ; re trying to keep it going. They have no clue how much work it takes, especially with their three kids and two dogs, but hey. That&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s their issue. They&#039 ; re keeping it going, and I--I--I wish them all the best. Now, (clears her throat) when it--when it comes to innovation in farming, I guess that--that--that besides his interaction with people, innovation was something that--that Nino was very attracted to, because he was always trying new irrigation. We had installed a--a well, which saved on water. But electricity was expensive. So, we invested in solar panels. And in the year 2000, we were one of the fifty original installations of net metering in the--in the county. So, it was always somethin&#039 ; , you know. We had a cell tower on the property. Very good income. Verizon had been pursuing us for several years for that. And finally we were able to get them to choose a location and (chuckles) give us a fake tree design that was acceptable that we couldn&#039 ; t see from the house. So, always moving forward with something, that is the exciting part of changes and I mentioned these as evidence because technological innovation in all our lives, including farming, is key. What&#039 ; s next? (puts up her hands, palms facing camera) I don&#039 ; t know. Robots? (laughs) I don&#039 ; t know! But--but Nino was able to embrace new ideas and change. And new farmers are going to have to do the same. Wheeler: Oh. Thank you so much. It&#039 ; s so exciting because we are all changing no matter what we--what we do. The--I was really curious about--say more about how innovative--what--what made him feel that way, think that way. Curiosity coming from another country and embracing so many differences, but being innovative with that help, maybe in spite of it sometimes. Cupaiuolo: Well, he had many different abilities. I had mentioned that he spoke four languages. His father was an artist, and Nino was very artistic. So, he had a very creative part of his personality, besides being just so outgoing. And, um, he loved to--to try new things. Wheeler: And that is wonderful! The other thing that I think depicts all of this was the number of articles written about him and that he helped promote, and to let the world know how he was, um, being innovative― Cupaiuolo: Uh-huh. Wheeler: ―in a very creative way. And that personality came across, and people accepted that. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: And there was so much camaraderie in it. Did you ever do tours of your farm? Cupaiuolo: Uh, yes, there were farm tours that were set up. And people, through the Farm Bureau, would come from different parts of the country, even. They would come on a bus! (shrugs) Because small farms, for a long time really, have been a focus of--of many different states. We even had the president of the University of California come on one of the--the tours, and wrote us a--a very nice thank you letter afterward, because they were interested in how much they should be focusing on the part of the University of California that was devoted to agriculture and farming. Wheeler: That&#039 ; s great. Would--sometimes when we&#039 ; re driving in the freeway and it&#039 ; s pretty much a parking lot for a couple of hours of the day, and we get this vision of wouldn&#039 ; t it be nice to be on a little farm or little acreage somewhere, do you have any advice to people who have that dream. Cupaiuolo: (purses her lips and blows out air, then clears her throat) Well, I think that it takes more than people think in terms of resources and, um, research (chuckles), and it--it&#039 ; s not something to jump into lightly. It is possible to buy a farm that&#039 ; s already operating, and that--that&#039 ; s what the young family did from--from me, last year. So-- Wheeler: And the cost of real estate has made that less available to a lot of people, too. Cupaiuolo: Well, that is--that--that&#039 ; s (nodding) Wheeler: So much going on in this farming industry. That&#039 ; s why it&#039 ; s very important to have the history of how it has been, in order to build on to the future. Do you happen to have a photo of Nino? Cupaiuolo: I do! (reaches to her right, and pulls out a photo). What is--what&#039 ; s happening to that. There it is! Wheeler: Oh, and he has some of the cherimoyas. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: That one is large! How large do they get? Cupaiuolo: Well, that was a three pounder. Wheeler: Mmm--wow. Cupaiuolo: Yeah, that--that would be fifteen dollars right there. Wheeler: Yes. Cupaiuolo: And you know what? People would buy them! Wheeler: It&#039 ; s amazing the costs of them. But now that I understand more about the--the detail and the--the labor intensiveness of it, um-- Cupaiuolo: Course, if that--that wouldn&#039 ; t all be fruit-less, if people didn&#039 ; t love the fruit. So-- Wheeler: Right. Exactly. Um-- Cupaiuolo: But, hey, look at what we pay for blueberries per month. Wheeler: Do you know of any other orchards that are doing that right now? Or is it a popular-- Cupaiuolo: For the cherimoya? Wheeler: Yes. Cupaiuolo: Not that I know of. I mean, there are people on the side. Competition. There was a guy in Oceanside who had purchased a cherimoya orchard and he had small, misshapen fruit. And he offered to sell it to Frazier Farms for three dollars a pound rather than the five dollars a pound that we were selling fruit. So the produce manager from Frader--Frazier Farms came to Nino and said, &quot ; I have this guy that&#039 ; s going to sell me fruit at three dollars a pound, so that&#039 ; s all I&#039 ; m going to pay you.&quot ; And Nino said, &quot ; eh-eh.&quot ; (gestures with her finger as if saying no). So, he was then out there exploring new avenues. But, it didn&#039 ; t take long before that fruit just sat in the store and wouldn&#039 ; t sell. No matter what the price was. Because people had expectations of what they had seen before. Wheeler: Yes, wow. Very interesting. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: Thank you so much for sharing this part of para-agriculture, which is a pretty new phrase to a--phase for a lot of us. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. It was new to me. Wheeler: And the up--the fact that we are the largest county in the United States with that kind of urban and city mixture makes it even more diversified and more interesting to live here. It&#039 ; s not wonder to me that the price of land has gone up as much as it has. It&#039 ; s very desirable. The--We are, however, in my humble opinion, at a cusp of which direction are we going in the future. And how will agriculture look in twenty years from now. But, you&#039 ; ve given us a wonderful foundation for how it came this far, what kind of innovation it took, what kind of knowledge. It&#039 ; s not for the weak--physically, mentally, or otherwise. And I&#039 ; m so appreciative of what you&#039 ; ve done. Thank you so much. Cupaiuolo: Oh, it&#039 ; s been my pleasure. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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Interview February 23, 2023 Description An account of the resource The Primavera Orchard was owned and operated by Giovanni and Susan Cupaiuolo from 1991 until Nino’s death in 2020 in Vista, California. It was a six acre peri-urban farm specializing in the growth, preparation, promotion and detailed hand-pollinated fruit from a variety of cherimoya trees. Cherimoya trees are a tropical fruit tree which will only grow in Southern California and are very expensive due to the complicated and dedicated care of the trees and cultivations. The Cupaiuolos later introduced blueberries to the area to provide this northern fruit into the local markets during the northern dormant season. Other fruits and vegetables were grown for personal use. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-24 Subject The topic of the resource Blueberries Cherimoya Orchards -- California -- Vista Tree crops Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-02-23 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Susan Cupaiuolo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lucy Wheeler Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vista (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Susan Cupaiuolo Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5af2f72446a3d7bf9cdf8db3952005c8.pdf defee5e2470badc29a52a43f13afacbe PDF Text Text SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Lucy Wheeler: Good afternoon. My name is Lucy Wheeler and it’s February the 23rd, 2023. We’re here to interview Susan— Susan Cupaiuolo: Cupaiuolo. Wheeler: Kupaiyalo. Thank you. (Cupaiuolo chuckles) Uh, this is in behalf of the North County Oral History Initiative being put on by Cal State and San Marcos and the Museum of History here in San Marcos. The history of our North County—and just as a preliminary to your story, Susan—the county of San Diego is a very unique situation in that it’s the ninth largest city in the United States, but it’s in the community of the county. The fourth largest industry is agriculture, and most of that, or 70% of that, is soon to be in the North County. Part of that agricultural industry makes it a–well, it’s the largest area in the United States with the most farms. Your story shows one of the areas of that agriculture which is kind of overlooked, and that is, in 2017 the county of San Diego estimated and actually counted that there were 5,000 small parafarmers, which is ten acres or less, and how they operate. And your story can bring us a wealth of information to that. So, with that beginning, tell us a little bit about yourself, your husband, where you were born, and what your interest in agriculture was. Cupaiuolo: (nods) I’d be glad to give some background on this. My husband was Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo. He died in October 2020 at the height of the pandemic. Uh, he was 86 years old. He had been in declining health physically and cognitively, and I just wish that he were here to tell this adventure, but I’ll do my best to–to share it. Um, I’m going to call him “Nino.” He grew up in Milan, Italy during World War II. He had one brother. His father was from Naples and his mother from Sicily. Farming was not in his background, and, um, I’m setting that up as making sure we don’t have these assumptions about Italians who grew up on farms and have these big families, okay? Because that’s–that’s not the–the way it was for him. He had a master’s degree in international marketing, and he spoke four languages. He sold industrial instrumentation in Europe and in the United States for over forty years. His first wife was an American. She worked at the U.S. Consulate in Milan. She was from Riverside, and they eventually settled with their three children in Orange County. For the first time, they had a yard! You know. Growing up in Milan, apartment, maybe you have a balcony with some pots. But the garden that he had, and they had chickens and the kids loved it. He learned that he loved growing things. Nino and I met and married in Michigan, where I am from. I was teaching and he was working there selling to the auto industry. He was transferred again in 1988 and we moved to Orange County. So, how did a schoolteacher from western Michigan and an Italian end up with a sixacre farm in north San Diego County? Well, I have to say at this point that it was driven by Nino, who was looking for a place to enjoy his retirement. I was happy teaching in Huntington Beach, but his territory stretched from San Diego to L.A. and beyond and he was on the road a lot. On Friday, one Friday, in 1991, he was returning from San Diego and he stopped off at a–a nursery in North Vista and, um, when he arrived home he said, “I’ve found where we’re going to retire.” So, the next day we started looking, and we found two acres on a subdivided avocado grove off of Gopher Canyon Road. And the journey began! Transcribed by Melissa Martin 1 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 At first, we commuted to the property on the weekends, and it–it was–it was perfect. It was hectic, but it was perfect. The Fuerte avocados there were in decline, and they were alive but failing, because after the introduction of the Hass variety, the–the cultivar, um, Fuerte fell out of favor. So, the 45-acre grove was subdivided into two-to-four-acre plots and put up for sale. So, what do you do with aging avocado trees? You stop watering them because avocados need 40 inches of rain a year. So, it didn’t take long. When the adjacent four acres became available, we were able to buy them as well and that included a grove of already-producing persimmons— Hachiyas and Fuyus. So, that gave us a place to start. We moved to the farm in 1994, fixed up a small house on the property, and over the next year we removed all of the metal irrigation pipes (chuckles) and those dead avocado trees. By the way, avocado wood makes great firewood. We were selling it and giving it away for years! Okay, enough background. What does it take to have a small farm? Well, besides resources like land and equipment and irrigation, you need physical energy and strength (chuckles) and a lot of knowledge based on research. And that would include—before you even get started—the microclimate, the soil, the water sources. And then you have to choose, based on that information, what to grow! Well, Nino wanted fruit trees. Okay. As I was saying, he was the driver of all of this (chuckles), so I was just along for the ride. But, he, in particular, wanted cherimoyas, and that was because he had the year before, out of curiosity, bought a cherimoya fruit at a market and he loved it. He saved the seeds, and he planted them in pots. In fact, there was a cherimoya tree on the property, right by the front door! After much research—this was in 1993—early days of the internet, okay? But, we learned that cherimoyas would do really well in our area. Not from seed, however. (indicates “no” with her left pointer finger, and clears her throat.) It–it took a big commitment, that’s for sure, because choosing to grow trees requires a longer-term outlook. Depending on how much time and money you have, you have to, um, invest, because the trees will take three to five years, or more, to produce, while row crops, like flowers or microgreens, for example, they can be seasonal. It was a big decision. It was a certain amount of trial and error—grafting, pollinating, planting. But, as it’s important to small farms in choosing a unique or niche product, not supplied (again indicated “no” with her finger) by larger farmers, it worked out! Now, at the time, that really wasn’t our focus, but it proved to be a huge advantage. A little bit about cherimoyas. They’re a subtropical fruit, native to the mountain valleys of Peru and Ecuador. It can be large, often heart-shaped. (Reaches for a fruit and holds it up for the camera while the camera pans in.) I can show you one. (Lays it back down, and begins to rub her hands together). They have overlapping scales—that’s what people call them, anyway. But, inside, it is white, and it has a custardy texture and it tastes like pineapple, banana, papaya, and in some varieties, even a pear! (Holds up a book with header reading “Gallery of Subtropical Plants” and contains a photo of the fruit and a cherimoya tree as well as textual information. Camera pans in on the page with the fruit image.) Southern California provides the–the best conditions in the United States for growing cherimoyas. The largest plantings are near Santa Barbara where most of that fruit is exported to Asia. The season is late winter to spring, so depending on the variety, that’s from November, December to March and April. The tricky thing Transcribed by Melissa Martin 2 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 (rubs her hands together) about growing cherimoyas is the pollination. Each blossom is both male and female, but bees are too big to enter this fleshy flower. To get full-sized fruit, hand pollination with a paintbrush is the key. It’s labor intensive in June, July, and August. It’s not difficult, but it is time consuming. Now, (looks to her left, towards the fruit) part of farming has to be knowing the microclimate and (clears her throat) in general, in San Diego, people know the difference between the–the cool coastal and the warmer inland valleys. But (rubs hands) even with careful research on the–on the property, it’s–it can throw you some–some confusing conditions, because, uh, there are different temperatures. You can have diff–places with sun, and soil, and wind. On our property, which dropped off to a–a canyon, the temperature dropped dramatically, including frost, and the prevailing westerly winds were an issue. We were able to grow for ourselves in that canyon, apples, cherries, pears, fruits that needed a lot of chill time. But we weren’t selling those. (clears her throat, plane can be heard in the background) We also ended up, though, having to plant a wind break to protect the cherimoyas (chuckles) that we had planted. Who knew! But, we chose wisely because we chose Satsuma tangerines, which proved to be–be– very popular, so it all worked out. (clears her throat again) Some research was more scientific because soil and water can be tested for pH and salinity and minerals, and there are a lot of excellent resources out–out there that–that I need to, uh, recommend, because um,—I’m going to read this just to make sure I get it correct—um, the University of California Cooperative Extension has the names of labs. Okay, you have to pay for them. But, especially soil analysis is–is important, because you need to understand the plants ability to absorb nutrients. You can even take them leaves from your plants, and they will analyze whether they are taking up nutrients as needed. I also want to recommend specific groups like—we had the California Rare Fruit Growers. There’s a–a branch in North County and also one at Balboa Park. There’s the California Cherimoya Association and other fruits have their Associations as well. And, of course, the United States Department of Agriculture. And I can’t forget the Master Gardener Association, because they have workshops and blogs and so much information. And in the past 20 to 30 years, it’s been easy to find information, easier, because of the internet. And whether you’re planting, or pruning, or harvesting, a YouTube video can teach you (starts to chuckle) just about anything you want! And they’re fun! So, research is easier. But I still have to say that contact with people is key. The University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department—that’s called the U.C.A.N.R.—is including–includes the County of San Diego Cooperative Extension and the Farm and Home Advisor—that’s by county. And–and another part of the U.C.A.N.R. is the South Coast Research and Extension Center in Irvine, and (clears throat) it’s a living laboratory for U.C. scientists where they are conducting agricultural research. It’s a 200-acre facility, where they have outdoor events and demonstrations and classrooms. They have a glasshouse there. And they also have a huge cherimoya collection of trees that is just beautiful. And, of course, that was our connection to that place, besides the great people who are there. So, relationships and talking about them, kind of brings me to the selling part of all of this, because when we had enough fruit to sell, the Vista Farmer’s Market was a consideration. But Transcribed by Melissa Martin 3 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Nino decided to try small, family-owned, independent grocers first. Not chains (indicates “no” with her left finger). They won’t even talk to you. Even Sprouts won’t buy from individual farmers. So, let’s find places where they will buy locally. Now, farmer’s markets do have advantages—meeting other farmers, learning about crops, meeting the public. But, they require labor time away from the farm and picking for unknown demand in advance. And that, with fruit on trees, is problematic. So as an experienced (chuckles) salesman, Nino knew to find out what the customer wanted, and he harvested by their needs! He would check their stock, or they would call. Sometimes he would deliver two to three times a week, especially during times like the Lunar New Year, things like that. That special attention is what builds relationships and loyalty. He also learned to sell by (chuckles) uniform size. They didn’t want all different sizes of fruit. They wanted uniform. But then he had to be creative, too. And he was always making sure that he was interacting with the produce people at the store, whether they’re the guys putting out the fruit or the managers, because that kind of connection does it all. So, (sighs) pre-pandemic, Nino was even doing free tastings at Frazier Farms which was one of his main sources, uh, sales–of sales. He–he would cut up (gestures cutting with a knife) cherimoyas and take them there and they weren’t well known but once people tried them, they were going to buy. Now, at one point, customers would see Nino delivering and they would stop him in the parking lot, asking to buy fruit themselves. He declined right away, partly because of the amount that they wanted. He realized that they were going to be reselling and competing with his customer right there in the store. So, it would be also disruptive to have these people coming to the property and wanting to buy, so, no. But it did get Nino thinking about sharing the experience of the farm. MeetUp groups were starting at that time. They were the thing, like signing up online for different activities. So, we started having U-Picks. We set up two timeslots on Saturday mornings, where people could sign up online, and they would come and Nino would give a presentation on the farm and the different fruits, and I provided samples of fruit and preserves and–and cherimoya ice cream and recipes. Oh, they loved that! So, it was a success. Families came with their kids, mostly from San Diego proper, you know. They were city people. But they were enjoying an outing in the country, and they enjoyed the property. They loved picking the fruit. So, these are people who wanted their kids to know where fruit comes from! Wow! (laughs) And the kids especially liked picking the tangerines. We made a lot of friends over the ten years that we did that, and we got to watch those kids grow up. They–they also liked feeding my chickens. Now, some customers—I put that in quotes (gestures making quotation marks with her hands) ‘cuz yes they were customers but they became friends and they would volunteer to come and help during the summer with the hand pollination and the–of the cherimoyas and so we–we had some–some really good connections that way. We even found a couple of paid workers from that group. Now, over the years, we had a lot of visitors to the farm. Um, usually by word of mouth or connections to the Farm Bureau, and that would include restaurant owners, especially Asian and South American, produce managers from independent grocers. I think of Barons Market, especially, because we had one produce manager from one store come and pretty soon all of the Transcribed by Melissa Martin 4 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 stores were buying from us. We even had wholesale produce managers (rubs hands together), um, specialty produce in the San Diego. They–they sell to the public, but they would come and– and visit and see the farm. And we also had students come to visit. They were from Cal Poly Pomona and there’s a College of Agriculture Plant Sciences there, and they were taking a class. I–I remember Dr. Greg Partida, who retired in 2010, but he had a class on subtropical fruit production and he would bring his students on field trips to the farm. So, that socialization is so important because farming, even on a small farm, can be really isolating. There’s so much to do, day-to-day. People, since the pandemic, working from home, have found out how strange that is, really, that instead of going to the office every day, they’re– they’re at home. And–and that’s kind of like what it’s–what it is to–to be a small farmer, too. I wanted to talk a little bit about, um, record keeping, because it’s so impart–important in farming and with the advent of the internet and–and computers, it’s changed a lot. But, it’s still a–a beneficial skill set, whether you’re talking about taxes, or income, or expenses, or irrigation, equipment, payroll, any of that. But, um, another use for–for keeping track of–of information is monitoring the production of the–the crops, whether it’s by varieties, where they’re growing on the property, the quality from year to year. And an example of this is really in–in Nino’s participation in the–the Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program, which was twenty years ago. Now, traditionally blueberries were a cold weather plant that would go dormant every year. In California, the plants bloom year-round, and they wear themselves out. So, Nino, once again, wanted to plant things that no one else plants and there was a lot of research going on as to how to extend the blueberry’s range. Through the Farm and Home Advisor Ramiro Lobo, Nino was given four plants each of nine different varieties of southern blueberries. The soil pH that we had was way too alkaline and it had to be augmented. Temperature had to be monitored. Pests considered. The Farm Bureau was very supportive throughout all of this. They even ended up building us a netted structure to keep the birds off. But, Nino was instrumental in monitoring and recording the blossoms, the fruit, the production for each plant. They called him Mr. Spreadsheet (both she and Wheeler chuckle). Well, Excel to the rescue, you know? Because, in–and—I–I have a–a photo of him here, if you’d like to see, where he is, um, (shows a photo of Nino, camera pans in) taking the blossoms off of the blueberry plants. Now, why would he be doing that? You know? For two years, he did that, so that the young plants could use their energy to grow. And then he would take the berries from each variety and weigh them and–and count them, and that’s how they decided which varieties would be the most productive in southern California. Now, there were other farmers doing that too, but in 2002, California produced two million pounds of blueberries. Okay. Twenty years later, 53.4 million pounds of blueberries, sixth in the United States. This boom is due to technological growing skills and adventurous producers, and he was part of all of that. My part with the blueberries was, (clears her throat) when I retired from teaching, then I was in charge of the blueberries. Okay. But think of it this way. Four dollars for six ounces (gestures as if telling a secret)—I was selling them at school. So, that translates to twelve dollars a pound. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 5 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Now, what ev–other fruit is going to sell for twelve dollars a pound! In the past ten years, in the United States, the output of blueberries has tripled. And that’s in the U.S. alone. And the main states are Washington, Georgia, and my home state, Michigan. So, why is that increased so much. Because of the research talking about antioxidants. So, in ten years, they have become really huge crop. Okay, today, what country do you think grows the most blueberries? I’ll tell you. Peru! Is that somethin’ or what? Which, for me, is kind of a full circle because that’s where cherimoyas are from. Okay. So, I have just a little bit more, because I sold the farm after Nino’s death. I had three people interested. One couple wanted it as an investment, (said in nasal utterance) ehh. Another couple ended up buying a larger property in Valley Center. But, the–the family that I–I sold to love it there, and they’re trying to keep it going. They have no clue how much work it takes, especially with their three kids and two dogs, but hey. That’s–that’s–that’s their issue. They’re keeping it going, and I–I–I wish them all the best. Now, (clears her throat) when it–when it comes to innovation in farming, I guess that–that–that besides his interaction with people, innovation was something that–that Nino was very attracted to, because he was always trying new irrigation. We had installed a–a well, which saved on water. But electricity was expensive. So, we invested in solar panels. And in the year 2000, we were one of the fifty original installations of net metering in the–in the county. So, it was always somethin’, you know. We had a cell tower on the property. Very good income. Verizon had been pursuing us for several years for that. And finally we were able to get them to choose a location and (chuckles) give us a fake tree design that was acceptable that we couldn’t see from the house. So, always moving forward with something, that is the exciting part of changes and I mentioned these as evidence because technological innovation in all our lives, including farming, is key. What’s next? (puts up her hands, palms facing camera) I don’t know. Robots? (laughs) I don’t know! But–but Nino was able to embrace new ideas and change. And new farmers are going to have to do the same. Wheeler: Oh. Thank you so much. It’s so exciting because we are all changing no matter what we–what we do. The—I was really curious about—say more about how innovative—what–what made him feel that way, think that way. Curiosity coming from another country and embracing so many differences, but being innovative with that help, maybe in spite of it sometimes. Cupaiuolo: Well, he had many different abilities. I had mentioned that he spoke four languages. His father was an artist, and Nino was very artistic. So, he had a very creative part of his personality, besides being just so outgoing. And, um, he loved to–to try new things. Wheeler: And that is wonderful! The other thing that I think depicts all of this was the number of articles written about him and that he helped promote, and to let the world know how he was, um, being innovative― Transcribed by Melissa Martin 6 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Cupaiuolo: Uh-huh. Wheeler: ―in a very creative way. And that personality came across, and people accepted that. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: And there was so much camaraderie in it. Did you ever do tours of your farm? Cupaiuolo: Uh, yes, there were farm tours that were set up. And people, through the Farm Bureau, would come from different parts of the country, even. They would come on a bus! (shrugs) Because small farms, for a long time really, have been a focus of–of many different states. We even had the president of the University of California come on one of the–the tours, and wrote us a–a very nice thank you letter afterward, because they were interested in how much they should be focusing on the part of the University of California that was devoted to agriculture and farming. Wheeler: That’s great. Would—sometimes when we’re driving in the freeway and it’s pretty much a parking lot for a couple of hours of the day, and we get this vision of wouldn’t it be nice to be on a little farm or little acreage somewhere, do you have any advice to people who have that dream. Cupaiuolo: (purses her lips and blows out air, then clears her throat) Well, I think that it takes more than people think in terms of resources and, um, research (chuckles), and it–it’s not something to jump into lightly. It is possible to buy a farm that’s already operating, and that– that’s what the young family did from–from me, last year. So— Wheeler: And the cost of real estate has made that less available to a lot of people, too. Cupaiuolo: Well, that is–that–that’s (nodding) Wheeler: So much going on in this farming industry. That’s why it’s very important to have the history of how it has been, in order to build on to the future. Do you happen to have a photo of Nino? Cupaiuolo: I do! (reaches to her right, and pulls out a photo). What is–what’s happening to that. There it is! Wheeler: Oh, and he has some of the cherimoyas. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: That one is large! How large do they get? Cupaiuolo: Well, that was a three pounder. Wheeler: Mmm–wow. Cupaiuolo: Yeah, that–that would be fifteen dollars right there. Wheeler: Yes. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 7 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 Cupaiuolo: And you know what? People would buy them! Wheeler: It’s amazing the costs of them. But now that I understand more about the–the detail and the–the labor intensiveness of it, um— Cupaiuolo: Course, if that–that wouldn’t all be fruit-less, if people didn’t love the fruit. So— Wheeler: Right. Exactly. Um— Cupaiuolo: But, hey, look at what we pay for blueberries per month. Wheeler: Do you know of any other orchards that are doing that right now? Or is it a popular— Cupaiuolo: For the cherimoya? Wheeler: Yes. Cupaiuolo: Not that I know of. I mean, there are people on the side. Competition. There was a guy in Oceanside who had purchased a cherimoya orchard and he had small, misshapen fruit. And he offered to sell it to Frazier Farms for three dollars a pound rather than the five dollars a pound that we were selling fruit. So the produce manager from Frader–Frazier Farms came to Nino and said, “I have this guy that’s going to sell me fruit at three dollars a pound, so that’s all I’m going to pay you.” And Nino said, “eh-eh.” (gestures with her finger as if saying no). So, he was then out there exploring new avenues. But, it didn’t take long before that fruit just sat in the store and wouldn’t sell. No matter what the price was. Because people had expectations of what they had seen before. Wheeler: Yes, wow. Very interesting. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. Wheeler: Thank you so much for sharing this part of para-agriculture, which is a pretty new phrase to a—phase for a lot of us. Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. It was new to me. Wheeler: And the up—the fact that we are the largest county in the United States with that kind of urban and city mixture makes it even more diversified and more interesting to live here. It’s not wonder to me that the price of land has gone up as much as it has. It’s very desirable. The— We are, however, in my humble opinion, at a cusp of which direction are we going in the future. And how will agriculture look in twenty years from now. But, you’ve given us a wonderful foundation for how it came this far, what kind of innovation it took, what kind of knowledge. It’s not for the weak—physically, mentally, or otherwise. And I’m so appreciative of what you’ve done. Thank you so much. Cupaiuolo: Oh, it’s been my pleasure. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 8 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 GLOSSARY Barons Market (pg.5) California Cherimoya Association (pg.3) California Rare Fruit Growers (pg.3) Cherimoya (pg.2) College of Agriculture Plant Science [Cal Poly Pomona] (pg. 5) Cooperative Extension’s Blueberry Test Plot Program (pg.5) County of San Diego Cooperative Extension (pg.3) Farm and Home Advisor (pg.3,5) Farm Bureau (pg.5) Frazier Farms (pg.4) Fuerte avocados (pg.2) Fuyu persimmons (pg.2) Hachiya persimmons (pg.2) Hass [avocado] (pg.2) Lobo, Ramiro (pg.5) Lunar New Year (pg.4) Master Gardener Association (pg.3) Museum of History [San Marcos] (pg.1) North County Oral History Initiative (pg.1) Para-agriculture (pg.8) Para-farmers (pg.1) Partida, Dr. Greg (pg.5) Satsuma tangerines (pg.3) South Coast Research and Extension Center (pg.3) United States Department of Agriculture (pg.3) University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department [U.C.A.N.R.] (pg.3) University of California Cooperative Extension (pg.3) Transcribed by Melissa Martin 9 2023-04-04 �SUSAN CUPAIUOLO TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-02-23 U-Picks (pg.5) Valley Center (pg.6) Vista Farmer’s Market (pg.4) Transcribed by Melissa Martin 10 2023-04-04 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cupaiuolo, Susan. Interview transcript. February 23, 2023 Description An account of the resource The Primavera Orchard was owned and operated by Giovanni and Susan Cupaiuolo from 1991 until Nino’s death in 2020 in Vista, California. It was a six acre peri-urban farm specializing in the growth, preparation, promotion and detailed hand-pollinated fruit from a variety of cherimoya trees. Cherimoya trees are a tropical fruit tree which will only grow in Southern California and are very expensive due to the complicated and dedicated care of the trees and cultivations. The Cupaiuolos later introduced blueberries to the area to provide this northern fruit into the local markets during the northern dormant season. Other fruits and vegetables were grown for personal use. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Susan Cupaiuolo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lucy Wheeler Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-02-23 Subject The topic of the resource Blueberries Cherimoya Orchards -- California -- Vista Tree crops Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vista (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. 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Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CupaiuoloSusan_WheelerLucy_2023-02-23_transcript Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience