6 10 196 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/24d0b5f1274c5333980a77f42e10980f.pdf fc3ce6202a3c7ec1f83a9311a0316116 PDF Text Text DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Riccardo Savo: Awesome. Alright, so today is April 5th, 2023. I am Riccardo Savo, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. I'm interviewing Dinah Poellnitz for the University Library Special Collections Oral Project. Thank you so much for being here with me today. Unfortunately, you're not able to have the video, so we'll just rely on audio today, which is perfectly fine. And I would like to begin quite broadly if we can, if you could tell me how you became interested in art and how you initially related it to the community or to community engagement. Dinah Poellnitz: Um, then that's like a childhood memory question for me. I'm from North County. My dad came to Oceanside Camp Pendleton in the seventies. I was born in [19]76. I think my dad came out here in [19]78 and we lived on base and if you know anything about North County during that time, it was like, you go to church, you watch sports... and that was it, you know? And my mom's from the South. She's from Louisiana and you know, my mom's about church and we used to go to church all the time. And my mom had a friend named Carla. She was like a wacky woman too. She was just elusive, like all over the place. She used to be an architect and she saw that I loved to draw. And so one day she just gave me her drafting table and I was, I could, I think I was like in -- 11 years-old -- and she brought all her materials and stuff to my house and I was just like, whaaaat? It was like a whole new world. I was just like, wait... there's a table made just for drawing? That happens? You know, it was like one of those moments. And I used to dr-- I wanted to be a costume designer, so I used to draw dresses and fashion all the time on that table. And I had a whole setup. But I just remember just being this little kid who had my own little like, workspace and, and it was just for me to draw. And I was like, wow, there's a, there's... you could do this. Like, this is not a like day, you know, day drawing at home. This like, you could really do this as a, like, as an adult. So yeah, I was maybe like 11 and it was Carla from Fresh Bread Church. <laughter> Savo: That's awesome. So, you began this at age 11 and did you carry this through to your high school? Because I know you attended UC [University of California] Riverside and earned your Bachelor's in art history. Poellnitz: Yeah, I did. You know, like I was a kid that always made my own. Like I made my own. I designed dresses. I made my own prom dress. I sewed it, I wore it. I was heavily into -- It was the nineties in high school. And so, my parents, my dad retired, and then we moved outta Oceanside and moved to Vista for my high school years. And... it was hip-hop era, so I was like into dance and music. So that was all part of art and expression. But I remember wanting to be in the art clubs and I was just like, I can't if that, if art club's about realism and like drawing like things perfectly, I don't have time for that. That's real. I was just like, I don't even, I'm not even curious to learn that. I don't wanna do that. Cause that's what art club was defined as in high school for me. Savo: So would you say that your engagement was more self-disciplined? It was more geared towards how you wanted to engage with it, or more or less, how you could find avenues to apply it? Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 1 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Poellnitz: Um, it was more intentional for me. You know, I like fashion, so I drew. I drew dresses and I designed a dress and I sewed a dress and I wore it. It was just, it was all intentional. It was like just being, it was an action, it was a language for me. It was... it was a skill, you know, I just thought very creatively all the time. Even when I was learning economics, I was thinking about it creatively so it can make sense for me. I think they say that artists are like divergent thinkers, you know? We always find or create and build and make an alternative solution to solve a problem in art. So that's kind of like that, that's a habit. Um, yeah, ‘cause in, in high school, I used to go dancing. I used to go to like, this is corny as hell: I used to skip school and go to the Soul Train and dance in Soul Train in High School. I was just expressive. It was a very creative, like moment as a kid for me being in high school in the nineties, like hip hop was like jazzy like baggy and like there was more Black designers like Dubbo jeans and FUBU and all that stuff came out. So it was kinda like a Renaissance era, even though I lived in, in a little North County and, you know, Blacks were a smaller percent of the community. There's like, that culture was just present when I was in high school. So me not wanting-- Me not wanting to join like the art club for high school and draw something perfectly was just like, eh, I can have fun. That feels like studying for economics. I don't wanna do that right now. I wanna enjoy creativity right now. I don't wanna study it. I was not in that mood. It was just a part of my life, you know? So... and then I used to go to LA every summer when I was in high school to get away from North County and stay with my cousins who worked at movie theaters. And that's when I was exposed to like museums and galleries and, you know, and I took a class at Santa Monica College and that's when I learned like, oh snap, you can learn art history? This is more interesting than like actually drawing the horse, you know? Um, I just learned that art had intentions all the time. Like I was, I was also like poor, you know? And I'm a, I come from a Black family, so to venture off into art, it's just like: you gotta make sure it makes money! My uncle in LA is like, what are you getting a degree in? Are you gonna be able to teach with that? I'm just like, hmm, I don't know, you know, and, but I enjoy it and I excelled at it. And like, I had a teacher, I took like Japanese art history at Santa Monica College, and I was just blown away by the history, like the political history, the social impact, just like everything that you see in art, like how it's a reflection of like moments of history or just moments of inequity. I thought that was very interesting how artists could use that as a language to communicate, to organize, to protest, to be expressive of what they don't like in society. So yeah, I loved art history and that was like perfect for me. Cause when I think about it, I was into dance and music, hiphop culture because it felt liberating. I designed and made my own prom dress because, you know, it gave me ownership. And those are like human right feelings. Savo: And speaking to that, about the ownership and the intentionality, your decision to do art history as a degree and as a major, was that a choice that you made? Was that a choice that you had made from Santa Monica to UC Riverside? Poellnitz: Mm-hmm Savo: OK- Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 2 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Poellnitz: It was intentional. Yeah. So I, when I was at Santa Monica, it was cool. I had a lot of friends and they were like all into politics. I saw Amy Goodman when I went to Santa Monica College. And so I had a lot of friends who were into like, the political and social justice part of education. And I was like, I wanna do art history. <laughs> I like it. I like pictures, I like reading-- images, I love that. I love telling, retelling those stories or using it as a form of communication. But I was like, I think I wanna-- I remember telling myself in our junior college, I wanted to have a gallery space. It was intentional. And I applied to all the schools that had the double major art history and art administrative 'cause I wanted to learn the business side and the admin part. I didn't know what I was gonna do. I didn't know I was gonna get the gallery, but I was like, “Hey, if I wanna work in a gallery, I need to have these skills or just to better understand it.” ‘Cause I have to justify going to school for art history, not just to my family but to myself. Savo: And so you mentioned that you wanted this applicability, you know to translate the skills that you learned in your degree to, to real life and to getting a job. Poellnitz: Yeah to a job--. Savo: Could you tell me a little broadly about your experience with that community engagement and, and political activism and how that helped formulate what is now, you know, the Hill Street Country Club because it's a great gallery in Oceanside and you don't really think about Oceanside being, uh, very cultural. At least you know, the North County, South Bay, in terms of San Diego County in general. But how did that come about? Poellnitz: Um, well I finished school, lived in L.A. for quite a bit. Played assistant nanny manager, like these jobs separate from what I wanted to go to school for because I was living in L.A and I had to learn how to multitask. And I took on like a lot of assistant jobs and one day I was just like, I was working for lie celebrities and like producers and stuff and you know, I saw how things were operating behind the scene creatively for money. And then I also understood the realities of like creating for me and the possibilities. And so, you know, I always kept a job and one day I decided, like me, my husband, we split [up] and me and my little kid, we moved back to North County and I still had my L.A job. So, I was still commuting like three to four times a week from Vista to L.A for my job. Cause they paid me well. But I decided to start volunteering at the Oceanside Museum of Art and their education department, but they didn't have one yet. So, I ended up volunteering with the proprietors. I learned about installation at Oceanside Museum of Art and I was still, I still had my like feet in two different worlds. I was still in the L.A world, but also in my hometown world. I did work at Patricia Korea Gallery in Santa Monica, and that was a very eye-opening experience at the<inaudible>was in college. Just, she was like the only woman of color, like gallery owner. And she only represented brown artists at the time, which was very <inaudible> in Santa Monica. Well, but inequity in like the gallery world when I was in college with that job, I would apply to like the Getty and all types of museums when I lived in L.A. with my friends. But my friends would always get the job even though I had a better CV than them. You know you just accept it. And so I just went back to like doing assistant work and then I decided, I was like, you know what, like I'm gonna lean a little heavy. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 3 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Like now that I'm back in Vista, I'm gonna lean in a little bit more in North County and invest more of my time there. And so that's when I started volunteering at OMA [Oceanside Museum of Art]. Then I learned about the infrastructure of the museum world because, you know, I always wanted to work in a museum. I always thought museums were an amazing place to tell stories and educate. I never knew about the dark side of museums, you know, like how they get art and how they flip art and also like the politics of like hierarchy and institutions, you know, I learned-- I didn't know about that in school. No one ever talked about that in school. We only talked about art history. But once I started volunteering and then turned into a paid position at Oceanside Museum of Art, I learned about institutions really quickly, and I also learned not just about art institutions, but I also learned about like civic engagement and city planning because, I still had my, my foot in L.A so I was used to going to galleries and museums and seeing public art, having friends who got paid as full-time artists or had very creative jobs. I know what's possible. And so, you know, being back home, I just like, “okay, why don't we have public art again." And then I had to like learn beyond what school taught me through experiences. Like, oh, public art is political and it's not, political is a message, it's political because you have to politically know how to create a system so that there can be public arts, right? At the time OMA, no one knew Oceanside Museum of Art exists. You know, 12 years ago no one knew. I didn't even know. I like googled and like looked for art spaces and I somehow, and only because I was intentionally looking for art space in North County, close to home, I found it. But it wasn't like it was vibrant and it was attracting people like me and they should be attracting people like me for living in LA and loving art. I didn't know it exists out of Google art spaces in North County. And that's how Oceanside using a popped up. And I noticed that they didn't have an education department. They had Julia Fister who was volunteering for the education department that she created as a volunteer because she had a big grant with Target to make sure every fifth grader goes to the museum. But she didn't have a office space or studio room for education. It was like she just came and sat at a table and made it happen and fifth graders came. And me and my business partner, Margaret Hernandez, we just decided, you know, we were both in education and we did all the docent tours with the fifth graders and the, and the workshops with them. And we just like had a lot of community conversations with young people, people in middle school, so you learned about their like starting point to art, who in the, in the classroom who visit[ed] that day, who had more access to art than others. Who had materials, who been to museum. You know, you learn so much about the demographics and like, I'm sorry but the demographics were pretty like astounding when you see majority of the Brown/Black kids saying this is their first time. You know. Or you have students ask you if they could take home some of the like, crayons or pastels at home so they can keep drawing. You're just like, dang, kids don't have like crayons? Like how do you not have crayons? You know it-- Or kids asking like, or the one kid who's just like, who knows about art but like, how do artists even make money? Like kids would ask those questions all the time. How do artists even make money? Like what do art, what can artists do? You know? And those were conversations for me ’cause I was always intentional. I was just like artists designed your shirt, the artist probably designed like a machine that's in the hospital that you are using, artists design buildings. I'm like, art is involved in Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 4 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 literally your whole life. You just don't know it. And you probably could have more, but you just don't know it. Right? And so I just started asking questions about how do we get more murals? How do we get public art? How do we have art walk? And I learned that I had to like volunteer with like Main Street, like a commerce type of org, who had a relationship with the city to get extra funding for projects for the city. I had to learn about that dynamic. I learned about putting things on the docket. Like I learned how art was, wasn't just like creative, but it was also political and it was also like [it] required you to engage in the system to understand how to create public art opportunities. You know, it's just, we didn't, Oceanside didn't have an infrastructure for art. Like we've made a lot of improvement, but we didn't have an infrastructure, we had an arts commission, but it was it was in silo and they weren't funding anything and they were just meeting each other, talking about projects around town, you know? The museum wasn't engaged at the time. It was, it was treated more like a private gallery space than a public space. And it was, ‘cause you know, Oceanside Museum of Art is not owned by the city. It's owned by a group of retirees, you know, and there's a lot there. There's also the retirement culture that you have to deal with. Like when we started Hill Street, we were very engaged with our friends and our family and community members. And we worked with people who couldn't get a space or an exhibition. We worked with those artists and they brought their family and friends. Like, it was a gathering opportunity for people. It made sense. Savo: And how were you able to attract these different artists? Were these artists specifically located in Oceanside or were they spread out through across San Diego County? Poellnitz: No it started in Oceanside. It was our friends first. We grew like a concentric circle, if that makes any sense. It was, um, we fit Hill Street like artist, personal, communal, universal. And like this, if I think about how we grew as a concentric circle, it was very personal for me, Marj, to begin Hill Street Country Club because the museum was rejecting all our ideas and they were not being cool or like easily invested in education. They made it very hard for Oceanside Museum of Art to create an education department at the time. And so in support of an education department, because we, you know, we did those docents and we listened to young people. So I'm like, “you need an education department. It's necessary.” We supported Julia and her vision to make an education department for the museum. And we tried to throw our first fundraiser for that vision of hers. And the museum would say no to us. Like, we're like, “Hey, can we do a fundraiser for the education department?" And they're like, no. And then we're asked like, “Can we borrow some chairs and tables for a fundraiser?” “Uh, not right now. No.” And basically like we knew we need an education department like, Oceanside, if you're gonna have Oceanside Museum of Art and you're taking up the city's name and you're having fifth graders come in and you're getting grant money, you need to have an education department, right? And that's just common sense to us. And so we told all our friends the idea of having a fundraiser for the Oceanside Museum of Arts Education Department to support Julia. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 5 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 And one day I was like driving home to dinner to meet Margaret and I saw that the Link-Soul building light was on and they were having a gallery show. And I walked in there and I was just like, this is the art space? And Jeff, who is the co-owner of Link-Soul was just like, yeah. And I was like, this is interesting. I was just so shocked to see a gallery that had a show. And the next day I went over there and met Jeff, someone got him, and I introduced myself and I pitched our fundraiser idea. He, like, he said yes to me, to like using this space for free. And so that was our first event that we organized, and it was called “Open to the Public” and it was about, you know, the need for art education. It was a fundraiser for OMA. And so, we just asked all our friends who were artists in North County and then like people who I went to school with, ‘cause I was taking classes at Miracosta for fun, for art and asking teachers to support it. We had a big turnout, and we were able to donate to the education department and purchase art materials and bags for every fifth grader of Oceanside for that year that visited the museum on that program. So that was like the first time where we were just like, wait, this was successful. People are thirsty. Like it's not just us who want [to] have more like community opportunities, you know, with art. So like I said, it's like we grew a concentric circle because we started off very, it was very personal for us to do that. And then once we had our first event, we understood the like community purpose. Like, oh this is not just us, this is a community issue too. We want, we want more opportunities to do stuff like this and we don't have it. It was like, “I want more of this. Like how do we, how do we keep doing this?” And so me, Margaret, just because we couldn't afford our own space and I still working back and forth in L.A, we just did pop-up art shows for like two solid years all over Oceanside. And then we went to community art events or like art events in San Diego because they had more of a presence of art for us back then, ‘cause we weren't really doing much as a city. So, we would go to events and openings in San Diego all the time. I don't know, it was this became very like, personal and communal. And then most of our artists are like working class, queer, young, old, um, more vulnerable, you know, and to like, to all kinds of things. And so, like most of them never had an opportunity to have an exhibition. They like paint it for themselves or put their art in a store, but no one's ever invited them to do an exhibition. And we would just invite artists for exhibition. But it was a curated experience, you know, and a lot of it was just, we choose artists that, that we shared messages with. I don't know, it just became a very organic growth. Savo: This is excellent to learn about. ‘Cause I didn't know that there's so much underneath, in terms of the layering, in terms of structuring, in terms of networking that's involved. Could you just clarify briefly who exactly Jeff and Julia are in relation to the Hill Street Country Club? Poellnitz: So Julia Fister at the time was the education director at the Oceanside Museum of Art. And she was one of my- me and Margaret's mentor. She now owns Studio Ace in Oceanside where it's focused on youth and like art education, which is really cool cause she's in the valley. Very much needed over there. And then Jeff, Jeff Cunningham is a artist but is the creative director for Link -Soul, which is a golf apparel company. Their design team is based in downtown San Diego. And we share, we co-op a space with them. That's where we have our gallery. And Jeff Cunningham is a phenomenal artist. Like I Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 6 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 curated him for a show for Oceanside Museum of Art. And our friendship, just like it grew from like me being a curator and an artist and him being an artist and us really like exchanging ideas about social impact and how do we create an art space that's different, that's more authentic and doesn't have all these pressures to over-perform, be productive. And so like, it's natural. It's interesting ‘cause he said yes to us having our first art show at his space and then he ended up giving us this space for Hill Street. Savo: That's awesome. And since Hill Street has been open and been around in the community, how has the gallery become that space where it's not just the ideas or expressions that are being presented, but how has that space become a platform really, sorry... How has that space become a platform for activism? Because, you know, you noted in a 2020 interview with KPBS that art is a functioning tool that should transition off the canvas. Poellnitz: Hmm-hmm. Savo: How has Hill Street Country Club played in that part? Poellnitz: You know, it's so funny cause every time I get asked like, “oh are you an artist too?” Like,” yeah, I'm an artist, I make work, but I don't make it anymore.” I was like, I make, I build art, you know, I can build stuff. But right now, my art is Hill Street Country Club, and you know, it's, it goes back to college and me like learning about all like the social impact and inequities in the world through art history. It goes back to that. And it goes back to like, you know, artists are some of the most vulnerable people because first of all, you're not respected with pay whatsoever, ’cause you have to remember like, I knew I had to get paid to do this or I shouldn’t be doing it. I should be like a teacher or an engineer or a therapist. Like, you went to school for art and people need to get paid for that. So we live, we live in North County where there's, we were spending like 10 cents per residence on art funding while like San Diego at the time was spending ten dollars. So, and then also trying to convince older peers in the art community that they had to pay for admin stuff that we organized. And then thinking that everyone had time to volunteer because at the end of the day, we had a large retirement class that was in charge of the art community in Oceanside and Vista. You know, they didn't see the value of paying younger people to help them with the arts, you know, there's uh cultural differences. And that being said, you know, to get paid is not just like, to get paid is the equity issue, right? And then not only to get, you know, to get paid is the equity issue. And if you're like Black and people don't even take you that, if you look at the museum stats and gallery stats for like, artists and like people who make it, you already know. You're like, you're dealing with so many microaggressions, you're dealing with some unresolved supremacy issues. Like I always tell folks like, hey, check this out. Like, um, it's okay if you're racist, I get it. You're not me. You don't have these experiences and you have to unlearn and I'm gonna give you grace to unlearn, but I'm always gonna speak up for what I-- what you Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 7 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 did. And I'm gonna not call you out, but I'm just gonna call you in and say like, “hey you know what you did was kind of racist could you not do that?” And I learned that was always like a threat to people when I was honest and like gave them grace at the same time. And I learned in the art community that they're not ready for those conversations at all. Or like, just to like unlearn and do better. So, but because I have ownership of my space and I don't work for anyone and I don't have a board that disagrees with my politics, I have a lot more autonomy than a lot of my artist friends or my art admins who work in museums and high-end gallery spaces. And so I get to embrace artists that are political, who are in the streets, who are organizing, who are building different collectives or opportunities for relief or whatever they believe in. I have a beautiful space. I also share my autonomy with them and I support their work. And because I believe in equity too. Cause I'm trying to get paid, I'm dealing with microaggressions. This is personal. Like what, what affects you is affecting me. And also, I'm like, I just don't like people being in pain. I'm an empathetic person. I, I don't know, I'm pretty radical politically, so I have to-- if I have my own autonomy, I'm gonna use it. I'm not gonna shy away from that. And the artists that I admire were doing that. It went that I was learning art history. They were telling a story, they was telling us how wrong this was and that was. Like, they're pointing out problems and they're doing it in the nuances of art. And I think it's very important for artists to tell those stories so people can gather and discuss and find solutions or to just build creative- what is it critical mass? No, I think it's critical mass is like valuable, once you learn it's not just yourself. It's like a Power in Numbers game. Savo: Would you say that speaking to it's a power in numbers game, do you think that that has changed your perspective on the, the personal communal and universal experience that Hill Street Country Club offers? Because obviously since it's opened, now since the pandemic 2020, do you think that it's become a situation where art more than ever needs to be more expressionist or more, um, as you say, it has to be more, you know--? Poellnitz: Yeah,- Savo: It has to be more- Poellnitz: It should be. It should be. You know I was just talking to my colleague Astrid Gonzalez, she is one of the Hill Street colleagues. She does all our audio-visual stuff. And she was reflecting the other day and she was like, “we really never stopped working during the pandemic.” I was like, we didn't, we couldn't afford to. We're vulnerable. We don't have board members with money. We don’t have-- like the reason why we can do all that we do is because we have people aligned with our principals who agree with us and who are not scared support what we're doing. But at the same time, to get paid in this art world, you gotta have some like, dirty person on your board. That's just reality. Like, you gotta think Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 8 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 money. And it's, that's just how it works. It's an institution. Like every institution in America has flaws, right? And during the pandemic, we stayed open. We were very creative of finding creative ways to stay open and accessible to our audience and to our artists. Cause a lot of my artists during the pandemic were dealing with poverty, food, needed food, like, mental health. The pandemic was messing people up in the first like two years. And a lot of my artists were affected by that. I worked with a lot of Brown and Queer and old artists, you know, and in this economy, they were suffering. And so, I had to figure out how to be a safe space and use my space for opportunities for people to get access to food or help folks get access to mental health services or even a distraction like coming, making art. I had to stay open for two and a half years during the pandemic, while a lot of big museums were closing and doing bare minimum because they didn't wanna get Covid. So, I don't know, my space has always evolved and adapt, because it has to. Savo: Speaking to- Poellnitz: Right now—Go ahead- Savo: Oh no, go ahead. Poellnitz: I forgot what I was going to say, go ahead. Savo: Speaking to the space having evolved, you mentioned that Hill Street became a space that allowed for those economic hardships of the pandemic, to kind of be alleviated for your artists. Could you speak about the political upheaval? Because we all lived through 2020 and we all know how painful it was during April, May, April through June of 2020. How did that come about? How was Hill Street a space for comfort, a space for expression? Poellnitz: Yeah, that was interesting. Cause like I'm the only like Black gallery owner in San Diego. And I've been doing this for so long that I, I belong to extended part of the San Diego art community that a lot of folks don't see in North County. Like I know a lot of people in museums and galleries and stuff like that. And I know a lot of people in City government and Federal government. And so, you know, during that time it was just like, this is when you make art. This is when you talk about these issues and you use art as a language and as a tool to have these community conversations. But also, this was also opportunity for us to do mutual aid. We went into care mode, like how do we care more about people? Like how do we care back? Like how do we take care of each other? Because during that time we know who's not taking care of us, we know who doesn't protect us. And it was more like being available to protect and provide care. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 9 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 I kind of miss those days. Those were the days where we were talking about liberation and how to use resources to create safe, safer communities. We were talking about solutions for the first time out loud as a public. We were sharing empathy with each other. I thought it was a beautiful opportunity for us to build something new. But it was also beautiful to see that we could be in solidarity. I had people who knew me in the business community of Oceanside, but never went to our events. Always knew what I was doing if I went into their store or their restaurant or coffee shop or whatever. And that was the first time a lot of those folks came out and donated to us. <laughs> You know, like checked on us. And I was like, “Wow, this is the first-time people cared about what we are doing over here. Like, this is interesting.” And I think there was a fear for a lot of folks like “I hope this isn't discourage her.” Or maybe I'm just thinking that in my head, I don't know. But I did see a lot of people come out the woodworks who started supporting us. And it gave us funding to create more programming and we kept going. So, I don't know. I was just adapting. I think that's what you do when you're in survival mode all the time. Savo: And since the pandemic, obviously the adapting to the circumstance and situation, have there been any local projects or exhibits that you've, partaken in or helped organize that reflect those changing structures or those change in activism? Cause you mentioned a lot about talking about solutions and you mentioned how there's this real need for concern for one another, this care for one another. Has there been any of these projects that reflect that? Poellnitz: Yeah so we got really involved during the pandemic. We created like a mental health like group therapy program for young middle school kids, “The Social,” and it was just like, we had a license. We have a licensed therapist, one of our artists, and it's like a group therapy through art, but also peer on peer because a lot of young folks were isolated from each other during the pandemic. And they're still coping with, you know the environment they had to live in, to stay away from everyone and not getting us sick to die. That's kind of traumatic. And then we're asking them to like, go back to normal real quick so we can jumpstart our economy. So we created a program, “The Social,” with the therapist for young people. And now we're gonna be part of the Oceanside Unified School District programming for summer, fall, and winter, I mean summer, fall and spring now. So we're now like, we created a program that's gonna be in the school system that provides mental healthcare for young people who need it the most. And then we just recently had an exhibition with <inaudible> Roca Gonzalez, who lives in Oceanside, who's from Puerto Rico. And they're working about all these social issues and we're coming together and recognizing we are a product of gentrification and colonialism. We live through it every single day. Like we have all this architectural vernacular that reminds us that we're all living through this. It's not just Puerto Rico, you know, it's everywhere. We're all surviving. I've been able to sit on a lot of committees and boards and be part of more equitable decision making for artists that I'm excited about that's gonna be coming out soon with the city of San Diego, helping a lot of like artists get access to money. That was like one thing that I did during the pandemic, was I did sign up on committees and boards because I'm just like, “You guys are making this process way Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 10 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 too difficult for people who have to work full-time jobs and take care of family.” Not everyone's out here just being an artist on retirement mode and can fill out all these questions and type all these like, letters of intent. You gotta make this more equitable-like process for like poor people with very limited time, you know? So it was part of a San Diego artist project that raised like $150K for artists in San Diego. And we made the process so easy that a lot more like trans and BIPOC artists actually applied and received funding to be a artist over the pandemic. That was amazing. I mean once I decided I was committed to equity and inclusion for myself, everything I do affects everyone. As a Black woman, it just does naturally, like we're-- The stats prove it. If you improve my life or if you improve my life in your surrounding, you benefit from it. Like literally, like if Dinah says she wants more vacation days, I work too much and because I, and I don't normally give vacation day. Oh my God, imagine if you give it to me, you're gonna have to give it to my coworker. Not everything I want, everything I need because equity benefits everyone. So I understand a lot of my personal experience or communal experiences and has universal like means that needs <inaudible>. Savo: And I was just curious, because we were speaking about these different programs and different committees that were happening during the pandemic. Before we jump back to the equity portion that I'm really fascinated to know more about, how were these committees and how were these programs organized? Were they all organized remotely? Were these children or these group therapy sessions that you mentioned, where were they held remotely or was there a creative space for that? Poellnitz: We did it at the gallery space every Saturday. Every Saturday. And our therapist had a baby. So, they're coming, they're gonna go back in the summer. They're gonna start back in the summer and we're gonna be at Jefferson Middle School. Last year we had a four-week social camp with them, with community artists and the therapists as a camp. And it was four weeks of campers and we had four cohorts of students and we're returning to that program in the summer. And we'll be returning with like regular art programming with Oceanside Unified School District on top of providing the Saturday space for the students again for group therapy. Savo: And I'm also curious to know like what kind of activities were these students engaged in when it came to the group therapy sessions? Because obviously this is a period where, it's a lot of, where social distancing was a very key thing and masking was also very important. How are these exercises or how are these sessions organized? What were these specific activities? Poellnitz: Well, it's so interesting ‘cause we kept over going through the whole pandemic. We, Hill Street changed its whole operation system to be more appointment-based. And we created capacities. We were very highly sensitive about Covid, like people had to wear masks all the time. We provided, Dr. Bronner’s used to donate tons of like hand sanitizer. Like we used to give like little packets out to people who came visit the gallery space. If anyone wanted to see an exhibit, they make an appointment. They would have the space to themselves for 20 minutes to visit the exhibit. And we wouldn't be in the space with them. We'll be like upstairs above where, you know, the distance, like it basically were by themselves. And then with “The Social,” “The Social” was like every Saturday. We had a capacity, I believe of like eight students at a time. And so, we have the space for people to spread out. And then Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 11 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 everyone had materials. I mean, it was really easy to manage. I think when people care for each other and they care that they have a safe space, people make sure they don't show up sick. People made sure to wash their hands. People made sure to keep their masks on. We did have a lot of workshops on Zoom. We had a lot of artist’s talks on Zoom. We had like – what is it called? We had AR [augmented reality] gallery exhibitions. So if you couldn't see the work in person, we recreate gallery space online, and people can navigate and look at art online as if it was in a gallery space. Savo: That’s really interesting-- Poellnitz: Yeah, we did a mobile art workshop. We got a grant right before the pandemic hit and we were supposed to have all this programming in every community center in Oceanside, but it was Covid and so we had to adapt, and 'cause they already gave us the money for it. So, we created a mobile art kit and like a lunch bag and it was like all the materials to like the perfect measurement and quantity that you needed for that project. We had our exhibition artists create a project and give us a list of materials for that project. And we used to do like a whole visual, like YouTube recording of how to create the piece. And then we did like a live Zoom and Instagram workshop, but anyone with a library card was getting mailed a mobile art workshop kit from us. Yeah so, we did a lot of organizing through the pandemic to stay open. It wasn't just simply being open, like we had to reorganize like our operations. We created an appointment system, we created more QR codes for people instead of like, there was no reason for anyone to touch anything in this space. People were able to pull out their phones and QR code and read like the show statement. And then we had Zoom workshops and people will get their MOD kits and you know, we did a lot of cool things on Zoom. It was fun. I don't know, you just learn how to care for people! Savo: What do you think was the— <Poellnitz and Savo talking over each other> I’m sorry. Poellnitz: Go ahead, no you go ahead. Savo: What do you think was the reception towards all these different restructuring and different outreach? Were people positive? Poellnitz: People were positive. People were very positive. And not only just positive, but our audience grew. We were more accessible to people outside of Oceanside. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 12 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Savo: Do you think that broadened the scope of Hill Street? Do you think it helped? Do you think it helps sort of bring a lot of those ideas and those concepts from the North County down to the South Bay? Poellnitz: Oh for sure. When I moved to Normal Heights a year and a half ago and people were like, “oh, you're here now. I'm like, yes.” And then just we love everything that you're, like, people from the arts commission knows what we're doing. Like I see a lot of gallery spaces and museums who are working with artists I worked with now. Worked with like five years ago, two years ago. I see the influence of our work on visuals. I see a lot of art spaces in San Diego, like institutions with bigger budgets, now creating visuals about their space. And I know we influenced people over the pandemic. They tell me and sometimes their programs look like it. It's wild. And it's like, wow. We did a lot over the pandemic while they sat still and they just watched us. Jeff always tell me, he's like, “you can't be mad if people are copying. Isn't that what you want?” I was like, “Oh yeah, that's how that works, huh?” Like, you influence people and they do the things you want them to do. Like have more like Queer folks or Black people or do more of this type of art. Like, oh they are listening, that is an impact. I didn't think about it like that. And he's like, “Yeah you just keep doing what you're doing. If they wanna do what you're doing in, see how far you can teach them, see how far they're willing to go.” And you know, that's, that's been like the best advice I've ever had doing this work. Because it's true. When you have autonomy and you could do whatever you want or say whatever you want, or stand by what you believe in, you have a bigger impact than the person who's quiet and not doing anything ‘cause they're scared. Savo: And speaking to that, that wanting to take initiative and be expressive. How does that coincide with some of the challenges that you were mentioning earlier about equity and inclusion? How do those two sort of intertwine with one another? Poellnitz: Dude, it's because it hurts. Because a lot of like organizations, a lot of people who do fund the arts are scared. They just scared of change. People are scared of change. And so there's always gonna be resistance. There's always gonna be the folks with resources who can like, jump like pounce on your idea. And because they have money, they can do it sooner and faster and get more visibility. That's gonna happen. It is exhausting. It wears you down, it discourages. Makes it harder for you to get access to grants or, or donors. But then at the same time, I've just been thinking about this a lot lately. Cause you know, Hill Street, we're at a point where I'm kind of exhausted, but at the same time I know why I'm exhausted and I gotta do things differently and I have to be a little bit more strategic now, like where I wanna go because I notice that a lot of people are watching us. And then people have a lot of expectations for us. And there's also a lot of opportunities for us in the position that we're in because of the work that we've done over the last ten years, you know? And especially the work that got highlighted during the George Floyd protest era. So, like I'm hyper aware and I'm being a little bit more wise about who I partner with. I'm being a little bit more wise on how often I say no because I was a person that never said no before. And Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 13 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 because I never said no, I got burnt out and not paid a lot. And I'm learning that me as a Black woman, my rest is very important, but it's also important that I have equity so I can get paid to do this work. So, I've just been thinking about how to slow down and sometimes less is more like I don't have to be over the place. I just need to be effective where I have intentions. So, it's like pulling back to that personal space has been going on with us lately. Like this being more local, bringing it all in, focusing on what we're strong at, getting into contract with the Oceanside Unified School District. Like that's a healthy source of funding for us. Instead of chasing donors who don't share our principles, I think artists and art organizers need to ask themselves like “Why are you here? What vision do you have? What community you belong to? What are your principles?” I think those are questions that anyone in the arts needs to ask themselves. Just be honest with yourself and if you could be honest with yourself, you should always know the choices that you're making. For me, I realize I wanna be my own institution and there's gonna be some hardship ‘cause I won't be conforming to a lot of institutional like practices. I will be creating new practices. I'm highly aware of the up and down of this art world for me. For me. And I'm honest with myself. So it's easier for me to commit, but because I'm honest with myself, I create ways that can sustain me. Like, I do more like art consulting jobs. I collaborate more with non-art, institutional spaces, you know? I work a lot more with community members who are in the political scene. So I understand like the fluidity of art. And if you're heavily relying on the same funders that fund the problem, yeah I would have concerns for the equity. But if you are creative and you know your worth and you are honest with yourself about why you're here, you always can find a solution. And because that's what's worked for me. Savo: And speaking to equity and how Hill Street has evolved over the past ten years, what do you think are some of the things that you personally wanna see for the Hill Street Club? You mentioned that you prefer more local engagement. You prefer being with individuals that are more like-minded in terms of art expression, in terms of inclusion. What are some of the hopes that you have for Hill Street moving forward? Poellnitz: I would love to have a community school. I want a community school. I worked for a nonprofit in City Heights and we worked with community schools that worked with juvies. They call them JCCS like Juvenile and Correction Community Schools. And they're like directly tied to the unified school district and the court system. At one point when I was heavily involved in politics, I was working with a former city council member in hopes of becoming like a divergent program for youth in the arts. So like, if a kid got arrested for the first time, instead of like putting them on probation and sending them to jail, you send them to like a diversion program. And the city of Carlsbad Police Department is the only police department in San Diego County that has an actual diversion program for youth. And so, you know, you get to be an organization as a choice for, for young folks and teach 'em all the skills, like how to create programming, how to run programming, how to make art. It's like a six-month commitment. I wanna do something more like that. I wanna have a community school. I wanna teach art the way that I experience art, the way that artists experiencing art. I wanna create a new institutional space for art Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 14 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 practice. I don't know, I just really wanna grow as a bigger institution, as a choice, as an alternative choice to other places. Savo: And obviously you've given a lot of thought to the idea of this community school and obviously diversion programs as well, such as Carlsbad's. Do you see potentially a branching out of Hill Street? Moving forward within not just North County, but also San Diego County as a whole? Do you see elements of what you've been able to create and to adapt with? Do you see any of that being replicated any elsewhere in the County? Poellnitz: Um, not yet, but we partner with a lot of folks in San Diego so we are very unique because we have to adapt. One thing you learn about our institutions, old ones, they can't adapt. So, when they can't adapt, they move slow. They struggle with adapting. And one thing about us, because we don't, we don't follow institutional like, uh wisdom. A lot of us are taking in diverse knowledge from each other, practicing being inclusive. And once you do that as an action, you can make decisions a lot sooner than later. And so we've been doing a lot of like partnerships and pop-ups with a lot of orgs in San Diego. I just want a community school. I want a community school. I want studio spaces for artists. I would like to have a choice for young people to learn about art and not just learn about art but have creative access to like a space where they can learn about the world and express themselves. Like I would like to have a community school. I have no aspirations to be all over San Diego County. That sounds like a lot of work. <laughs> Savo: Oh, absolutely <laughs> Poellnitz: And I worked with a lot of people in San Diego County. I love you San Diego, but North County is so special. Like us North County people, we are so innovative 'cause we've had so little. And when we learn something new, we master it because we don't have all the museums in galleries and big budgets that San Diego has or L.A has. So we are very mom and pop and DIY in North County and we support each other. And so, I don't know, that's the civic identity for me. You know, that's part of my civic identity. Savo: And speaking to this, sort of bring it all back in identity, the personal, the communal, the universal that Hill Street represents. Do you think that a community school would be a perfect foster for that? And I'm just curious about the age groups. Something I'm actually quite interested about, would this be open to not just middle schools, the middle school age range that Oceanside education part has worked with, but would you extend that? Would you put a limited K through 12 per example? Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 15 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Poellnitz: I don't know. I don’t know. That’s a lot of years. <laughs> Savo: It's a lot of funding. Poellnitz: It's a lot of funding. I know that the folk at Link-Soul, they run the Goat Hill Golf course in Oceanside and it's already been promised to us that we will build some type of like, institution space for a community school one day. So, we're all dreaming like what we wanted to have. Savo: That's awesome. And just before we wrap up our interview here today, was there anything that we had previously discussed or discussed throughout the interview that you wanted a little bit more emphasis on or anything that you wanted to touch base with before we end today? Poellnitz: I don't think so. You're fine. Savo: Awesome. Again, thank you so much for this interview. It was really informative, and I think it's great to learn about how art has really grown in North County. Because I'm from the South Bay, so I wouldn't know too much. But I think this was a great experience and I thank you a lot for that. Poellnitz: Oh, thank you, I appreciate that. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 16 2023-04-24 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Poellnitz, Dinah. Interview transcript. April 5, 2023. Description An account of the resource Transcript of oral History Interview of Dinah Poellnitz on April 5, 2023. Interview discusses Dinah Poellnitz’s community engagement within the city of Oceanside through art. In particular, the interview focuses on Poellnitz's involvement in the founding of the Hill Street Country Club art gallery in Oceanside, CA. Poellnitz discusses how to navigate through the art community as a Black woman, emphasizing the importance of equity and inclusion. Poellnitz also discusses operating her gallery during the pandemic, and future aspirations. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dinah Poellnitz Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-05 Subject The topic of the resource Art -- Study and teaching Art galleries -- nonprofit Artists, Black Community Engagement COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- Hill Street Country Club -- California -- Oceanside Women artists Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Los Angeles (Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) Vista (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Dinah Poellnitz License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-025 Activists and activism Art and artists Black experience Community history History Department internship Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Riccardo Savo Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dinah Poellnitz OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PoellnitzDinah_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-05.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 SC027 Poellnitz, Dinah. Interview April 5, 2023. SC027-025 1:06:11 SC027 California State University San Marcos Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Art -- Study and teaching Art galleries -- nonprofit Artists, Black Community Engagement Hill Street Country Club -- California -- Oceanside Los Angeles (Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) Vista (Calif.) Dinah Poellnitz Riccardo Savo Audio PoellnitzDinah_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-05 1:|12(18)|22(4)|33(2)|44(5)|57(13)|67(4)|77(15)|88(4)|102(14)|114(6)|130(6)|140(4)|150(11)|161(15)|173(4)|183(11)|196(7)|209(3)|220(15)|233(1)|245(3)|255(12)|265(16)|277(11)|287(10)|298(7)|310(4)|320(3)|333(12)|343(18)|354(1)|366(9)|376(1)|386(1)|397(2)|407(17)|424(2)|432(13)|442(5)|454(1)|463(7)|474(1)|485(3)|497(13)|508(2)|518(4)|531(5)|542(11)|553(12)|567(11)|578(4)|595(10)|605(12)|616(9)|627(5)|638(15)|648(10)|660(4)|668(10)|680(5)|690(5)|701(13)|710(8)|722(3)|736(6)|750(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4344d88bc2e671e3ad4b1f4ea85cfba8.wav Other audio English 40 Interest in Art and How Art Relates to Community Engagement Poellnitz discusses how she initially was exposed to art at the age of 11, where she began to take up drawing through a family friend. drafting material ; drawing ; North County ; Oceanside 216 High School and the 1990s Dinah Poellnitz describes how her interest in art coincided with the development and mainstreaming of hip-hip during the 1990s. She mentions how she was drawn to the expressionist element that art represented. dance ; hip-hop ; Oceanside,CA ; Vista,CA 246 Self-Engagement with Art Dinah Poellnitz elaborates on how her interest in fashion and making her own dresses instilled her creativity in making art with intention. She mentions her time at Santa Monica College where she got to see firsthand how art could be used as a language to communicate, organize, and protest. art intentionality ; fashion ; Santa Monica College ; Soul Train 508 Art History and University of California, Riverside Dinah Poellnitz discusses how her networking in college at both Santa Monica College and UC Riverside helped to expose her to the business part of art. Poellnitz decided to double major in art history and art administration to learn what it means to operate a studio gallery and exhibit. Amy Goodman ; Intentionality ; Politics ; Santa Monica College 606 Getting a Job in the Art Industry Dinah Poellnitz discusses more broadly how she transitioned from her initial job positions in Los Angeles, CA to San Diego's North County. Beginning with the Oceanside Museum of Art, Poellnitz's experience in volunteering with youth led to learning about civic engagement and city planning. Primarily, she focuses on the challenges and inequities that she observed amongst Black children who had no prior engagement with art materials and what it means to be an artist. Hill Street Country Club ; inequity ; Los Angeles ; North County ; Oceanside Museum of Art ; Vista, CA 1196 Artist Networking in San Diego and Oceanside Dinah Poellnitz mentions how her idea to create the Hill Street Country Club came from the contacts that she developed with other local artists in Oceanside. In particular, she recalls an instance she met the owner of the Link-Soul art space, Jeff Cunningham, who provided her with the opportunity to create a space of her own. Art Exhibitions ; Link-Soul ; Oceanside Education Department ; Oceanside Museum of Art 1546 The Networking and Structuring of the Hill Street Country Club Dinah Poellnitz elaborate on the two primary contacts that assisted in her founding of the Hill Street County Club. Jeff Cunningham ; Julia Fister ; Studio Ace Art Gallery 1652 Hill Street Country Club Art Exhibit and Activism Dinah Poellnitz discusses the challenges in funding that came in comparison to other local exhibits in the North County. Specifically, Poellnitz elaborates on how the Hill Street Country Club's artists all share similar outlooks on the art industry and how their work is a critique of social inequities. autonomy ; inequity ; microaggression ; social impact 2017 Hill Street Country Club and the Pandemic Dinah Poellnitz provides insight to how Hill Street Country Club had to adapt to the changes brought on by the 2020 pandemic and remain open despite other exhibits closing their doors. 2020 pandemic ; mental health 2222 The Economic Hardships of the Pandemic within the Art Community Dinah Poellnitz offers an insight on the effects that the traumatic events of police brutality had on those within the Black art community. Poellnitz reflects on the general mood and tone of the Oceanside community during the initial months of the pandemic. community conversations ; empathy ; liberation ; resources ; solidarity 2448 Changes in both Activism and Structure Dinah Poellnitz briefly mentions how Hill Street had to evolve over the course of the pandemic, providing the creative space to assist in the mental health crisis that developed over the course of 2020. group therapy ; Oceanside Unified School District ; The Social 2724 Oceanside Unified School District and Group Therapy for Middle School Children Dinah Poellnitz goes into detail discussing how Hill Street offered children from Jefferson Middle School group therapy sessions to handle with the stress from the pandemic. She elaborates on the lengths that Hill Street had to change to adhere to COVID protocols with social distancing and interaction. cohorts ; COVID-19 ; Jefferson Middle School ; social camp 3065 The Community Reception to Hill Street's Restructuring and Outreach Dinah Poellnitz describes how Hill Street became a model of inspiration during the pandemic for other exhibits to follow. She offers the reception that Hill Street received from the local community for their initiatives with the Oceanside Unified School District. budget ; gallery space ; impact ; influence 3512 The Future of the Hill Street County Club Dinah Poellnitz provides the vision that she hopes for the Hill Street Country Club, primarily the creation of a Community School. While much of this vision has not been enacted, Poellnitz offers some of the challenges that would come in the face of creating a K-12 community school. bigger institution ; community school ; organizations ; partnerships wav Oral History Interview of Dinah Poellnitz on April 5, 2023. Video briefly discusses Dinah Poellnitz’s community engagement within the city of Oceanside through art. In particular, the interview focuses on Poellnitz's involvement in the founding of the Hill Street Country Club art gallery in Oceanside, CA. Poellnitz discusses how to navigate through the art community as a Black woman, emphasizing the importance of equity and inclusion. Riccardo Savo: Awesome. Alright, so today is April 5th, 2023. I am Riccardo Savo, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. I&#039 ; m interviewing Dinah Poellnitz for the University Library Special Collections Oral Project. Thank you so much for being here with me today. Unfortunately, you&#039 ; re not able to have the video, so we&#039 ; ll just rely on audio today, which is perfectly fine. And I would like to begin quite broadly if we can, if you could tell me how you became interested in art and how you initially related it to the community or to community engagement. Dinah Poellnitz: Um, then that&#039 ; s like a childhood memory question for me. I&#039 ; m from North County. My dad came to Oceanside Camp Pendleton in the seventies. I was born in [19]76. I think my dad came out here in [19]78 and we lived on base and if you know anything about North County during that time, it was like, you go to church, you watch sports... and that was it, you know? And my mom&#039 ; s from the South. She&#039 ; s from Louisiana and you know, my mom&#039 ; s about church and we used to go to church all the time. And my mom had a friend named Carla. She was like a wacky woman too. She was just elusive, like all over the place. She used to be an architect and she saw that I loved to draw. And so one day she just gave me her drafting table and I was, I could, I think I was like in -- 11 years-old -- and she brought all her materials and stuff to my house and I was just like, whaaaat? It was like a whole new world. I was just like, wait... there&#039 ; s a table made just for drawing? That happens? You know, it was like one of those moments. And I used to dr-- I wanted to be a costume designer, so I used to draw dresses and fashion all the time on that table. And I had a whole setup. But I just remember just being this little kid who had my own little like, workspace and, and it was just for me to draw. And I was like, wow, there&#039 ; s a, there&#039 ; s... you could do this. Like, this is not a like day, you know, day drawing at home. This like, you could really do this as a, like, as an adult. So yeah, I was maybe like 11 and it was Carla from Fresh Bread Church. &lt ; laughter&gt ; Savo: That&#039 ; s awesome. So, you began this at age 11 and did you carry this through to your high school? Because I know you attended UC [University of California] Riverside and earned your Bachelor&#039 ; s in art history. Poellnitz: Yeah, I did. You know, like I was a kid that always made my own. Like I made my own. I designed dresses. I made my own prom dress. I sewed it, I wore it. I was heavily into -- It was the nineties in high school. And so, my parents, my dad retired, and then we moved outta Oceanside and moved to Vista for my high school years. And... it was hip-hop era, so I was like into dance and music. So that was all part of art and expression. But I remember wanting to be in the art clubs and I was just like, I can&#039 ; t if that, if art club&#039 ; s about realism and like drawing like things perfectly, I don&#039 ; t have time for that. That&#039 ; s real. I was just like, I don&#039 ; t even, I&#039 ; m not even curious to learn that. I don&#039 ; t wanna do that. Cause that&#039 ; s what art club was defined as in high school for me. Savo: So would you say that your engagement was more self-disciplined? It was more geared towards how you wanted to engage with it, or more or less, how you could find avenues to apply it? Poellnitz: Um, it was more intentional for me. You know, I like fashion, so I drew. I drew dresses and I designed a dress and I sewed a dress and I wore it. It was just, it was all intentional. It was like just being, it was an action, it was a language for me. It was... it was a skill, you know, I just thought very creatively all the time. Even when I was learning economics, I was thinking about it creatively so it can make sense for me. I think they say that artists are like divergent thinkers, you know? We always find or create and build and make an alternative solution to solve a problem in art. So that&#039 ; s kind of like that, that&#039 ; s a habit. Um, yeah, &#039 ; cause in, in high school, I used to go dancing. I used to go to like, this is corny as hell: I used to skip school and go to the Soul Train and dance in Soul Train in High School. I was just expressive. It was a very creative, like moment as a kid for me being in high school in the nineties, like hip hop was like jazzy like baggy and like there was more Black designers like Dubbo jeans and FUBU and all that stuff came out. So it was kinda like a Renaissance era, even though I lived in, in a little North County and, you know, Blacks were a smaller percent of the community. There&#039 ; s like, that culture was just present when I was in high school. So me not wanting-- Me not wanting to join like the art club for high school and draw something perfectly was just like, eh, I can have fun. That feels like studying for economics. I don&#039 ; t wanna do that right now. I wanna enjoy creativity right now. I don&#039 ; t wanna study it. I was not in that mood. It was just a part of my life, you know? So... and then I used to go to LA every summer when I was in high school to get away from North County and stay with my cousins who worked at movie theaters. And that&#039 ; s when I was exposed to like museums and galleries and, you know, and I took a class at Santa Monica College and that&#039 ; s when I learned like, oh snap, you can learn art history? This is more interesting than like actually drawing the horse, you know? Um, I just learned that art had intentions all the time. Like I was, I was also like poor, you know? And I&#039 ; m a, I come from a Black family, so to venture off into art, it&#039 ; s just like: you gotta make sure it makes money! My uncle in LA is like, what are you getting a degree in? Are you gonna be able to teach with that? I&#039 ; m just like, hmm, I don&#039 ; t know, you know, and, but I enjoy it and I excelled at it. And like, I had a teacher, I took like Japanese art history at Santa Monica College, and I was just blown away by the history, like the political history, the social impact, just like everything that you see in art, like how it&#039 ; s a reflection of like moments of history or just moments of inequity. I thought that was very interesting how artists could use that as a language to communicate, to organize, to protest, to be expressive of what they don&#039 ; t like in society. So yeah, I loved art history and that was like perfect for me. Cause when I think about it, I was into dance and music, hip-hop culture because it felt liberating. I designed and made my own prom dress because, you know, it gave me ownership. And those are like human right feelings. Savo: And speaking to that, about the ownership and the intentionality, your decision to do art history as a degree and as a major, was that a choice that you made? Was that a choice that you had made from Santa Monica to UC Riverside? Poellnitz: Mm-hmm Savo: OK- Poellnitz: It was intentional. Yeah. So I, when I was at Santa Monica, it was cool. I had a lot of friends and they were like all into politics. I saw Amy Goodman when I went to Santa Monica College. And so I had a lot of friends who were into like, the political and social justice part of education. And I was like, I wanna do art history. &lt ; laughs&gt ; I like it. I like pictures, I like reading-- images, I love that. I love telling, retelling those stories or using it as a form of communication. But I was like, I think I wanna-- I remember telling myself in our junior college, I wanted to have a gallery space. It was intentional. And I applied to all the schools that had the double major art history and art administrative &#039 ; cause I wanted to learn the business side and the admin part. I didn&#039 ; t know what I was gonna do. I didn&#039 ; t know I was gonna get the gallery, but I was like, &quot ; Hey, if I wanna work in a gallery, I need to have these skills or just to better understand it.&quot ; &#039 ; Cause I have to justify going to school for art history, not just to my family but to myself. Savo: And so you mentioned that you wanted this applicability, you know to translate the skills that you learned in your degree to, to real life and to getting a job. Poellnitz: Yeah to a job--. Savo: Could you tell me a little broadly about your experience with that community engagement and, and political activism and how that helped formulate what is now, you know, the Hill Street Country Club because it&#039 ; s a great gallery in Oceanside and you don&#039 ; t really think about Oceanside being, uh, very cultural. At least you know, the North County, South Bay, in terms of San Diego County in general. But how did that come about? Poellnitz: Um, well I finished school, lived in L.A. for quite a bit. Played assistant nanny manager, like these jobs separate from what I wanted to go to school for because I was living in L.A and I had to learn how to multitask. And I took on like a lot of assistant jobs and one day I was just like, I was working for lie celebrities and like producers and stuff and you know, I saw how things were operating behind the scene creatively for money. And then I also understood the realities of like creating for me and the possibilities. And so, you know, I always kept a job and one day I decided, like me, my husband, we split [up] and me and my little kid, we moved back to North County and I still had my L.A job. So, I was still commuting like three to four times a week from Vista to L.A for my job. Cause they paid me well. But I decided to start volunteering at the Oceanside Museum of Art and their education department, but they didn&#039 ; t have one yet. So, I ended up volunteering with the proprietors. I learned about installation at Oceanside Museum of Art and I was still, I still had my like feet in two different worlds. I was still in the L.A world, but also in my hometown world. I did work at Patricia Korea Gallery in Santa Monica, and that was a very eye-opening experience at the&lt ; inaudible&gt ; was in college. Just, she was like the only woman of color, like gallery owner. And she only represented brown artists at the time, which was very &lt ; inaudible&gt ; in Santa Monica. Well, but inequity in like the gallery world when I was in college with that job, I would apply to like the Getty and all types of museums when I lived in L.A. with my friends. But my friends would always get the job even though I had a better CV than them. You know you just accept it. And so I just went back to like doing assistant work and then I decided, I was like, you know what, like I&#039 ; m gonna lean a little heavy. Like now that I&#039 ; m back in Vista, I&#039 ; m gonna lean in a little bit more in North County and invest more of my time there. And so that&#039 ; s when I started volunteering at OMA [Oceanside Museum of Art]. Then I learned about the infrastructure of the museum world because, you know, I always wanted to work in a museum. I always thought museums were an amazing place to tell stories and educate. I never knew about the dark side of museums, you know, like how they get art and how they flip art and also like the politics of like hierarchy and institutions, you know, I learned-- I didn&#039 ; t know about that in school. No one ever talked about that in school. We only talked about art history. But once I started volunteering and then turned into a paid position at Oceanside Museum of Art, I learned about institutions really quickly, and I also learned not just about art institutions, but I also learned about like civic engagement and city planning because, I still had my, my foot in L.A so I was used to going to galleries and museums and seeing public art, having friends who got paid as full-time artists or had very creative jobs. I know what&#039 ; s possible. And so, you know, being back home, I just like, &quot ; okay, why don&#039 ; t we have public art again.&quot ; And then I had to like learn beyond what school taught me through experiences. Like, oh, public art is political and it&#039 ; s not, political is a message, it&#039 ; s political because you have to politically know how to create a system so that there can be public arts, right? At the time OMA, no one knew Oceanside Museum of Art exists. You know, 12 years ago no one knew. I didn&#039 ; t even know. I like googled and like looked for art spaces and I somehow, and only because I was intentionally looking for art space in North County, close to home, I found it. But it wasn&#039 ; t like it was vibrant and it was attracting people like me and they should be attracting people like me for living in LA and loving art. I didn&#039 ; t know it exists out of Google art spaces in North County. And that&#039 ; s how Oceanside using a popped up. And I noticed that they didn&#039 ; t have an education department. They had Julia Fister who was volunteering for the education department that she created as a volunteer because she had a big grant with Target to make sure every fifth grader goes to the museum. But she didn&#039 ; t have a office space or studio room for education. It was like she just came and sat at a table and made it happen and fifth graders came. And me and my business partner, Margaret Hernandez, we just decided, you know, we were both in education and we did all the docent tours with the fifth graders and the, and the workshops with them. And we just like had a lot of community conversations with young people, people in middle school, so you learned about their like starting point to art, who in the, in the classroom who visit[ed] that day, who had more access to art than others. Who had materials, who been to museum. You know, you learn so much about the demographics and like, I&#039 ; m sorry but the demographics were pretty like astounding when you see majority of the Brown/Black kids saying this is their first time. You know. Or you have students ask you if they could take home some of the like, crayons or pastels at home so they can keep drawing. You&#039 ; re just like, dang, kids don&#039 ; t have like crayons? Like how do you not have crayons? You know it-- Or kids asking like, or the one kid who&#039 ; s just like, who knows about art but like, how do artists even make money? Like kids would ask those questions all the time. How do artists even make money? Like what do art, what can artists do? You know? And those were conversations for me &#039 ; cause I was always intentional. I was just like artists designed your shirt, the artist probably designed like a machine that&#039 ; s in the hospital that you are using, artists design buildings. I&#039 ; m like, art is involved in literally your whole life. You just don&#039 ; t know it. And you probably could have more, but you just don&#039 ; t know it. Right? And so I just started asking questions about how do we get more murals? How do we get public art? How do we have art walk? And I learned that I had to like volunteer with like Main Street, like a commerce type of org, who had a relationship with the city to get extra funding for projects for the city. I had to learn about that dynamic. I learned about putting things on the docket. Like I learned how art was, wasn&#039 ; t just like creative, but it was also political and it was also like [it] required you to engage in the system to understand how to create public art opportunities. You know, it&#039 ; s just, we didn&#039 ; t, Oceanside didn&#039 ; t have an infrastructure for art. Like we&#039 ; ve made a lot of improvement, but we didn&#039 ; t have an infrastructure, we had an arts commission, but it was it was in silo and they weren&#039 ; t funding anything and they were just meeting each other, talking about projects around town, you know? The museum wasn&#039 ; t engaged at the time. It was, it was treated more like a private gallery space than a public space. And it was, &#039 ; cause you know, Oceanside Museum of Art is not owned by the city. It&#039 ; s owned by a group of retirees, you know, and there&#039 ; s a lot there. There&#039 ; s also the retirement culture that you have to deal with. Like when we started Hill Street, we were very engaged with our friends and our family and community members. And we worked with people who couldn&#039 ; t get a space or an exhibition. We worked with those artists and they brought their family and friends. Like, it was a gathering opportunity for people. It made sense. Savo: And how were you able to attract these different artists? Were these artists specifically located in Oceanside or were they spread out through across San Diego County? Poellnitz: No it started in Oceanside. It was our friends first. We grew like a concentric circle, if that makes any sense. It was, um, we fit Hill Street like artist, personal, communal, universal. And like this, if I think about how we grew as a concentric circle, it was very personal for me, Marj, to begin Hill Street Country Club because the museum was rejecting all our ideas and they were not being cool or like easily invested in education. They made it very hard for Oceanside Museum of Art to create an education department at the time. And so in support of an education department, because we, you know, we did those docents and we listened to young people. So I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; you need an education department. It&#039 ; s necessary.&quot ; We supported Julia and her vision to make an education department for the museum. And we tried to throw our first fundraiser for that vision of hers. And the museum would say no to us. Like, we&#039 ; re like, &quot ; Hey, can we do a fundraiser for the education department?&quot ; And they&#039 ; re like, no. And then we&#039 ; re asked like, &quot ; Can we borrow some chairs and tables for a fundraiser?&quot ; &quot ; Uh, not right now. No.&quot ; And basically like we knew we need an education department like, Oceanside, if you&#039 ; re gonna have Oceanside Museum of Art and you&#039 ; re taking up the city&#039 ; s name and you&#039 ; re having fifth graders come in and you&#039 ; re getting grant money, you need to have an education department, right? And that&#039 ; s just common sense to us. And so we told all our friends the idea of having a fundraiser for the Oceanside Museum of Arts Education Department to support Julia. And one day I was like driving home to dinner to meet Margaret and I saw that the Link-Soul building light was on and they were having a gallery show. And I walked in there and I was just like, this is the art space? And Jeff, who is the co-owner of Link-Soul was just like, yeah. And I was like, this is interesting. I was just so shocked to see a gallery that had a show. And the next day I went over there and met Jeff, someone got him, and I introduced myself and I pitched our fundraiser idea. He, like, he said yes to me, to like using this space for free. And so that was our first event that we organized, and it was called &quot ; Open to the Public&quot ; and it was about, you know, the need for art education. It was a fundraiser for OMA. And so, we just asked all our friends who were artists in North County and then like people who I went to school with, &#039 ; cause I was taking classes at Miracosta for fun, for art and asking teachers to support it. We had a big turnout, and we were able to donate to the education department and purchase art materials and bags for every fifth grader of Oceanside for that year that visited the museum on that program. So that was like the first time where we were just like, wait, this was successful. People are thirsty. Like it&#039 ; s not just us who want [to] have more like community opportunities, you know, with art. So like I said, it&#039 ; s like we grew a concentric circle because we started off very, it was very personal for us to do that. And then once we had our first event, we understood the like community purpose. Like, oh this is not just us, this is a community issue too. We want, we want more opportunities to do stuff like this and we don&#039 ; t have it. It was like, &quot ; I want more of this. Like how do we, how do we keep doing this?&quot ; And so me, Margaret, just because we couldn&#039 ; t afford our own space and I still working back and forth in L.A, we just did pop-up art shows for like two solid years all over Oceanside. And then we went to community art events or like art events in San Diego because they had more of a presence of art for us back then, &#039 ; cause we weren&#039 ; t really doing much as a city. So, we would go to events and openings in San Diego all the time. I don&#039 ; t know, it was this became very like, personal and communal. And then most of our artists are like working class, queer, young, old, um, more vulnerable, you know, and to like, to all kinds of things. And so, like most of them never had an opportunity to have an exhibition. They like paint it for themselves or put their art in a store, but no one&#039 ; s ever invited them to do an exhibition. And we would just invite artists for exhibition. But it was a curated experience, you know, and a lot of it was just, we choose artists that, that we shared messages with. I don&#039 ; t know, it just became a very organic growth. Savo: This is excellent to learn about. &#039 ; Cause I didn&#039 ; t know that there&#039 ; s so much underneath, in terms of the layering, in terms of structuring, in terms of networking that&#039 ; s involved. Could you just clarify briefly who exactly Jeff and Julia are in relation to the Hill Street Country Club? Poellnitz: So Julia Fister at the time was the education director at the Oceanside Museum of Art. And she was one of my- me and Margaret&#039 ; s mentor. She now owns Studio Ace in Oceanside where it&#039 ; s focused on youth and like art education, which is really cool cause she&#039 ; s in the valley. Very much needed over there. And then Jeff, Jeff Cunningham is a artist but is the creative director for Link -Soul, which is a golf apparel company. Their design team is based in downtown San Diego. And we share, we co-op a space with them. That&#039 ; s where we have our gallery. And Jeff Cunningham is a phenomenal artist. Like I curated him for a show for Oceanside Museum of Art. And our friendship, just like it grew from like me being a curator and an artist and him being an artist and us really like exchanging ideas about social impact and how do we create an art space that&#039 ; s different, that&#039 ; s more authentic and doesn&#039 ; t have all these pressures to over-perform, be productive. And so like, it&#039 ; s natural. It&#039 ; s interesting &#039 ; cause he said yes to us having our first art show at his space and then he ended up giving us this space for Hill Street. Savo: That&#039 ; s awesome. And since Hill Street has been open and been around in the community, how has the gallery become that space where it&#039 ; s not just the ideas or expressions that are being presented, but how has that space become a platform really, sorry... How has that space become a platform for activism? Because, you know, you noted in a 2020 interview with KPBS that art is a functioning tool that should transition off the canvas. Poellnitz: Hmm-hmm. Savo: How has Hill Street Country Club played in that part? Poellnitz: You know, it&#039 ; s so funny cause every time I get asked like, &quot ; oh are you an artist too?&quot ; Like,&quot ; yeah, I&#039 ; m an artist, I make work, but I don&#039 ; t make it anymore.&quot ; I was like, I make, I build art, you know, I can build stuff. But right now, my art is Hill Street Country Club, and you know, it&#039 ; s, it goes back to college and me like learning about all like the social impact and inequities in the world through art history. It goes back to that. And it goes back to like, you know, artists are some of the most vulnerable people because first of all, you&#039 ; re not respected with pay whatsoever, &#039 ; cause you have to remember like, I knew I had to get paid to do this or I shouldn&#039 ; t be doing it. I should be like a teacher or an engineer or a therapist. Like, you went to school for art and people need to get paid for that. So we live, we live in North County where there&#039 ; s, we were spending like 10 cents per residence on art funding while like San Diego at the time was spending ten dollars. So, and then also trying to convince older peers in the art community that they had to pay for admin stuff that we organized. And then thinking that everyone had time to volunteer because at the end of the day, we had a large retirement class that was in charge of the art community in Oceanside and Vista. You know, they didn&#039 ; t see the value of paying younger people to help them with the arts, you know, there&#039 ; s uh cultural differences. And that being said, you know, to get paid is not just like, to get paid is the equity issue, right? And then not only to get, you know, to get paid is the equity issue. And if you&#039 ; re like Black and people don&#039 ; t even take you that, if you look at the museum stats and gallery stats for like, artists and like people who make it, you already know. You&#039 ; re like, you&#039 ; re dealing with so many microaggressions, you&#039 ; re dealing with some unresolved supremacy issues. Like I always tell folks like, hey, check this out. Like, um, it&#039 ; s okay if you&#039 ; re racist, I get it. You&#039 ; re not me. You don&#039 ; t have these experiences and you have to unlearn and I&#039 ; m gonna give you grace to unlearn, but I&#039 ; m always gonna speak up for what I-- what you did. And I&#039 ; m gonna not call you out, but I&#039 ; m just gonna call you in and say like, &quot ; hey you know what you did was kind of racist could you not do that?&quot ; And I learned that was always like a threat to people when I was honest and like gave them grace at the same time. And I learned in the art community that they&#039 ; re not ready for those conversations at all. Or like, just to like unlearn and do better. So, but because I have ownership of my space and I don&#039 ; t work for anyone and I don&#039 ; t have a board that disagrees with my politics, I have a lot more autonomy than a lot of my artist friends or my art admins who work in museums and high-end gallery spaces. And so I get to embrace artists that are political, who are in the streets, who are organizing, who are building different collectives or opportunities for relief or whatever they believe in. I have a beautiful space. I also share my autonomy with them and I support their work. And because I believe in equity too. Cause I&#039 ; m trying to get paid, I&#039 ; m dealing with microaggressions. This is personal. Like what, what affects you is affecting me. And also, I&#039 ; m like, I just don&#039 ; t like people being in pain. I&#039 ; m an empathetic person. I, I don&#039 ; t know, I&#039 ; m pretty radical politically, so I have to-- if I have my own autonomy, I&#039 ; m gonna use it. I&#039 ; m not gonna shy away from that. And the artists that I admire were doing that. It went that I was learning art history. They were telling a story, they was telling us how wrong this was and that was. Like, they&#039 ; re pointing out problems and they&#039 ; re doing it in the nuances of art. And I think it&#039 ; s very important for artists to tell those stories so people can gather and discuss and find solutions or to just build creative- what is it critical mass? No, I think it&#039 ; s critical mass is like valuable, once you learn it&#039 ; s not just yourself. It&#039 ; s like a Power in Numbers game. Savo: Would you say that speaking to it&#039 ; s a power in numbers game, do you think that that has changed your perspective on the, the personal communal and universal experience that Hill Street Country Club offers? Because obviously since it&#039 ; s opened, now since the pandemic 2020, do you think that it&#039 ; s become a situation where art more than ever needs to be more expressionist or more, um, as you say, it has to be more, you know--? Poellnitz: Yeah,-Savo: It has to be more- Poellnitz: It should be. It should be. You know I was just talking to my colleague Astrid Gonzalez, she is one of the Hill Street colleagues. She does all our audio-visual stuff. And she was reflecting the other day and she was like, &quot ; we really never stopped working during the pandemic.&quot ; I was like, we didn&#039 ; t, we couldn&#039 ; t afford to. We&#039 ; re vulnerable. We don&#039 ; t have board members with money. We don&#039 ; t have-- like the reason why we can do all that we do is because we have people aligned with our principals who agree with us and who are not scared support what we&#039 ; re doing. But at the same time, to get paid in this art world, you gotta have some like, dirty person on your board. That&#039 ; s just reality. Like, you gotta think money. And it&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s just how it works. It&#039 ; s an institution. Like every institution in America has flaws, right? And during the pandemic, we stayed open. We were very creative of finding creative ways to stay open and accessible to our audience and to our artists. Cause a lot of my artists during the pandemic were dealing with poverty, food, needed food, like, mental health. The pandemic was messing people up in the first like two years. And a lot of my artists were affected by that. I worked with a lot of Brown and Queer and old artists, you know, and in this economy, they were suffering. And so, I had to figure out how to be a safe space and use my space for opportunities for people to get access to food or help folks get access to mental health services or even a distraction like coming, making art. I had to stay open for two and a half years during the pandemic, while a lot of big museums were closing and doing bare minimum because they didn&#039 ; t wanna get Covid. So, I don&#039 ; t know, my space has always evolved and adapt, because it has to. Savo: Speaking to- Poellnitz: Right now--Go ahead- Savo: Oh no, go ahead. Poellnitz: I forgot what I was going to say, go ahead. Savo: Speaking to the space having evolved, you mentioned that Hill Street became a space that allowed for those economic hardships of the pandemic, to kind of be alleviated for your artists. Could you speak about the political upheaval? Because we all lived through 2020 and we all know how painful it was during April, May, April through June of 2020. How did that come about? How was Hill Street a space for comfort, a space for expression? Poellnitz: Yeah, that was interesting. Cause like I&#039 ; m the only like Black gallery owner in San Diego. And I&#039 ; ve been doing this for so long that I, I belong to extended part of the San Diego art community that a lot of folks don&#039 ; t see in North County. Like I know a lot of people in museums and galleries and stuff like that. And I know a lot of people in City government and Federal government. And so, you know, during that time it was just like, this is when you make art. This is when you talk about these issues and you use art as a language and as a tool to have these community conversations. But also, this was also opportunity for us to do mutual aid. We went into care mode, like how do we care more about people? Like how do we care back? Like how do we take care of each other? Because during that time we know who&#039 ; s not taking care of us, we know who doesn&#039 ; t protect us. And it was more like being available to protect and provide care. I kind of miss those days. Those were the days where we were talking about liberation and how to use resources to create safe, safer communities. We were talking about solutions for the first time out loud as a public. We were sharing empathy with each other. I thought it was a beautiful opportunity for us to build something new. But it was also beautiful to see that we could be in solidarity. I had people who knew me in the business community of Oceanside, but never went to our events. Always knew what I was doing if I went into their store or their restaurant or coffee shop or whatever. And that was the first time a lot of those folks came out and donated to us. &lt ; laughs&gt ; You know, like checked on us. And I was like, &quot ; Wow, this is the first-time people cared about what we are doing over here. Like, this is interesting.&quot ; And I think there was a fear for a lot of folks like &quot ; I hope this isn&#039 ; t discourage her.&quot ; Or maybe I&#039 ; m just thinking that in my head, I don&#039 ; t know. But I did see a lot of people come out the woodworks who started supporting us. And it gave us funding to create more programming and we kept going. So, I don&#039 ; t know. I was just adapting. I think that&#039 ; s what you do when you&#039 ; re in survival mode all the time. Savo: And since the pandemic, obviously the adapting to the circumstance and situation, have there been any local projects or exhibits that you&#039 ; ve, partaken in or helped organize that reflect those changing structures or those change in activism? Cause you mentioned a lot about talking about solutions and you mentioned how there&#039 ; s this real need for concern for one another, this care for one another. Has there been any of these projects that reflect that? Poellnitz: Yeah so we got really involved during the pandemic. We created like a mental health like group therapy program for young middle school kids, &quot ; The Social,&quot ; and it was just like, we had a license. We have a licensed therapist, one of our artists, and it&#039 ; s like a group therapy through art, but also peer on peer because a lot of young folks were isolated from each other during the pandemic. And they&#039 ; re still coping with, you know the environment they had to live in, to stay away from everyone and not getting us sick to die. That&#039 ; s kind of traumatic. And then we&#039 ; re asking them to like, go back to normal real quick so we can jumpstart our economy. So we created a program, &quot ; The Social,&quot ; with the therapist for young people. And now we&#039 ; re gonna be part of the Oceanside Unified School District programming for summer, fall, and winter, I mean summer, fall and spring now. So we&#039 ; re now like, we created a program that&#039 ; s gonna be in the school system that provides mental healthcare for young people who need it the most. And then we just recently had an exhibition with &lt ; inaudible&gt ; Roca Gonzalez, who lives in Oceanside, who&#039 ; s from Puerto Rico. And they&#039 ; re working about all these social issues and we&#039 ; re coming together and recognizing we are a product of gentrification and colonialism. We live through it every single day. Like we have all this architectural vernacular that reminds us that we&#039 ; re all living through this. It&#039 ; s not just Puerto Rico, you know, it&#039 ; s everywhere. We&#039 ; re all surviving. I&#039 ; ve been able to sit on a lot of committees and boards and be part of more equitable decision making for artists that I&#039 ; m excited about that&#039 ; s gonna be coming out soon with the city of San Diego, helping a lot of like artists get access to money. That was like one thing that I did during the pandemic, was I did sign up on committees and boards because I&#039 ; m just like, &quot ; You guys are making this process way too difficult for people who have to work full-time jobs and take care of family.&quot ; Not everyone&#039 ; s out here just being an artist on retirement mode and can fill out all these questions and type all these like, letters of intent. You gotta make this more equitable-like process for like poor people with very limited time, you know? So it was part of a San Diego artist project that raised like $150K for artists in San Diego. And we made the process so easy that a lot more like trans and BIPOC artists actually applied and received funding to be a artist over the pandemic. That was amazing. I mean once I decided I was committed to equity and inclusion for myself, everything I do affects everyone. As a Black woman, it just does naturally, like we&#039 ; re-- The stats prove it. If you improve my life or if you improve my life in your surrounding, you benefit from it. Like literally, like if Dinah says she wants more vacation days, I work too much and because I, and I don&#039 ; t normally give vacation day. Oh my God, imagine if you give it to me, you&#039 ; re gonna have to give it to my coworker. Not everything I want, everything I need because equity benefits everyone. So I understand a lot of my personal experience or communal experiences and has universal like means that needs &lt ; inaudible&gt ; . Savo: And I was just curious, because we were speaking about these different programs and different committees that were happening during the pandemic. Before we jump back to the equity portion that I&#039 ; m really fascinated to know more about, how were these committees and how were these programs organized? Were they all organized remotely? Were these children or these group therapy sessions that you mentioned, where were they held remotely or was there a creative space for that? Poellnitz: We did it at the gallery space every Saturday. Every Saturday. And our therapist had a baby. So, they&#039 ; re coming, they&#039 ; re gonna go back in the summer. They&#039 ; re gonna start back in the summer and we&#039 ; re gonna be at Jefferson Middle School. Last year we had a four-week social camp with them, with community artists and the therapists as a camp. And it was four weeks of campers and we had four cohorts of students and we&#039 ; re returning to that program in the summer. And we&#039 ; ll be returning with like regular art programming with Oceanside Unified School District on top of providing the Saturday space for the students again for group therapy. Savo: And I&#039 ; m also curious to know like what kind of activities were these students engaged in when it came to the group therapy sessions? Because obviously this is a period where, it&#039 ; s a lot of, where social distancing was a very key thing and masking was also very important. How are these exercises or how are these sessions organized? What were these specific activities? Poellnitz: Well, it&#039 ; s so interesting &#039 ; cause we kept over going through the whole pandemic. We, Hill Street changed its whole operation system to be more appointment-based. And we created capacities. We were very highly sensitive about Covid, like people had to wear masks all the time. We provided, Dr. Bronner&#039 ; s used to donate tons of like hand sanitizer. Like we used to give like little packets out to people who came visit the gallery space. If anyone wanted to see an exhibit, they make an appointment. They would have the space to themselves for 20 minutes to visit the exhibit. And we wouldn&#039 ; t be in the space with them. We&#039 ; ll be like upstairs above where, you know, the distance, like it basically were by themselves. And then with &quot ; The Social,&quot ; &quot ; The Social&quot ; was like every Saturday. We had a capacity, I believe of like eight students at a time. And so, we have the space for people to spread out. And then everyone had materials. I mean, it was really easy to manage. I think when people care for each other and they care that they have a safe space, people make sure they don&#039 ; t show up sick. People made sure to wash their hands. People made sure to keep their masks on. We did have a lot of workshops on Zoom. We had a lot of artist&#039 ; s talks on Zoom. We had like -- what is it called? We had AR [augmented reality] gallery exhibitions. So if you couldn&#039 ; t see the work in person, we recreate gallery space online, and people can navigate and look at art online as if it was in a gallery space. Savo: That&#039 ; s really interesting-- Poellnitz: Yeah, we did a mobile art workshop. We got a grant right before the pandemic hit and we were supposed to have all this programming in every community center in Oceanside, but it was Covid and so we had to adapt, and &#039 ; cause they already gave us the money for it. So, we created a mobile art kit and like a lunch bag and it was like all the materials to like the perfect measurement and quantity that you needed for that project. We had our exhibition artists create a project and give us a list of materials for that project. And we used to do like a whole visual, like YouTube recording of how to create the piece. And then we did like a live Zoom and Instagram workshop, but anyone with a library card was getting mailed a mobile art workshop kit from us. Yeah so, we did a lot of organizing through the pandemic to stay open. It wasn&#039 ; t just simply being open, like we had to reorganize like our operations. We created an appointment system, we created more QR codes for people instead of like, there was no reason for anyone to touch anything in this space. People were able to pull out their phones and QR code and read like the show statement. And then we had Zoom workshops and people will get their MOD kits and you know, we did a lot of cool things on Zoom. It was fun. I don&#039 ; t know, you just learn how to care for people! Savo: What do you think was the-- &lt ; Poellnitz and Savo talking over each other&gt ; I&#039 ; m sorry. Poellnitz: Go ahead, no you go ahead. Savo: What do you think was the reception towards all these different restructuring and different outreach? Were people positive? Poellnitz: People were positive. People were very positive. And not only just positive, but our audience grew. We were more accessible to people outside of Oceanside. Savo: Do you think that broadened the scope of Hill Street? Do you think it helped? Do you think it helps sort of bring a lot of those ideas and those concepts from the North County down to the South Bay? Poellnitz: Oh for sure. When I moved to Normal Heights a year and a half ago and people were like, &quot ; oh, you&#039 ; re here now. I&#039 ; m like, yes.&quot ; And then just we love everything that you&#039 ; re, like, people from the arts commission knows what we&#039 ; re doing. Like I see a lot of gallery spaces and museums who are working with artists I worked with now. Worked with like five years ago, two years ago. I see the influence of our work on visuals. I see a lot of art spaces in San Diego, like institutions with bigger budgets, now creating visuals about their space. And I know we influenced people over the pandemic. They tell me and sometimes their programs look like it. It&#039 ; s wild. And it&#039 ; s like, wow. We did a lot over the pandemic while they sat still and they just watched us. Jeff always tell me, he&#039 ; s like, &quot ; you can&#039 ; t be mad if people are copying. Isn&#039 ; t that what you want?&quot ; I was like, &quot ; Oh yeah, that&#039 ; s how that works, huh?&quot ; Like, you influence people and they do the things you want them to do. Like have more like Queer folks or Black people or do more of this type of art. Like, oh they are listening, that is an impact. I didn&#039 ; t think about it like that. And he&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Yeah you just keep doing what you&#039 ; re doing. If they wanna do what you&#039 ; re doing in, see how far you can teach them, see how far they&#039 ; re willing to go.&quot ; And you know, that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s been like the best advice I&#039 ; ve ever had doing this work. Because it&#039 ; s true. When you have autonomy and you could do whatever you want or say whatever you want, or stand by what you believe in, you have a bigger impact than the person who&#039 ; s quiet and not doing anything &#039 ; cause they&#039 ; re scared. Savo: And speaking to that, that wanting to take initiative and be expressive. How does that coincide with some of the challenges that you were mentioning earlier about equity and inclusion? How do those two sort of intertwine with one another? Poellnitz: Dude, it&#039 ; s because it hurts. Because a lot of like organizations, a lot of people who do fund the arts are scared. They just scared of change. People are scared of change. And so there&#039 ; s always gonna be resistance. There&#039 ; s always gonna be the folks with resources who can like, jump like pounce on your idea. And because they have money, they can do it sooner and faster and get more visibility. That&#039 ; s gonna happen. It is exhausting. It wears you down, it discourages. Makes it harder for you to get access to grants or, or donors. But then at the same time, I&#039 ; ve just been thinking about this a lot lately. Cause you know, Hill Street, we&#039 ; re at a point where I&#039 ; m kind of exhausted, but at the same time I know why I&#039 ; m exhausted and I gotta do things differently and I have to be a little bit more strategic now, like where I wanna go because I notice that a lot of people are watching us. And then people have a lot of expectations for us. And there&#039 ; s also a lot of opportunities for us in the position that we&#039 ; re in because of the work that we&#039 ; ve done over the last ten years, you know? And especially the work that got highlighted during the George Floyd protest era. So, like I&#039 ; m hyper aware and I&#039 ; m being a little bit more wise about who I partner with. I&#039 ; m being a little bit more wise on how often I say no because I was a person that never said no before. And because I never said no, I got burnt out and not paid a lot. And I&#039 ; m learning that me as a Black woman, my rest is very important, but it&#039 ; s also important that I have equity so I can get paid to do this work. So, I&#039 ; ve just been thinking about how to slow down and sometimes less is more like I don&#039 ; t have to be over the place. I just need to be effective where I have intentions. So, it&#039 ; s like pulling back to that personal space has been going on with us lately. Like this being more local, bringing it all in, focusing on what we&#039 ; re strong at, getting into contract with the Oceanside Unified School District. Like that&#039 ; s a healthy source of funding for us. Instead of chasing donors who don&#039 ; t share our principles, I think artists and art organizers need to ask themselves like &quot ; Why are you here? What vision do you have? What community you belong to? What are your principles?&quot ; I think those are questions that anyone in the arts needs to ask themselves. Just be honest with yourself and if you could be honest with yourself, you should always know the choices that you&#039 ; re making. For me, I realize I wanna be my own institution and there&#039 ; s gonna be some hardship &#039 ; cause I won&#039 ; t be conforming to a lot of institutional like practices. I will be creating new practices. I&#039 ; m highly aware of the up and down of this art world for me. For me. And I&#039 ; m honest with myself. So it&#039 ; s easier for me to commit, but because I&#039 ; m honest with myself, I create ways that can sustain me. Like, I do more like art consulting jobs. I collaborate more with non-art, institutional spaces, you know? I work a lot more with community members who are in the political scene. So I understand like the fluidity of art. And if you&#039 ; re heavily relying on the same funders that fund the problem, yeah I would have concerns for the equity. But if you are creative and you know your worth and you are honest with yourself about why you&#039 ; re here, you always can find a solution. And because that&#039 ; s what&#039 ; s worked for me. Savo: And speaking to equity and how Hill Street has evolved over the past ten years, what do you think are some of the things that you personally wanna see for the Hill Street Club? You mentioned that you prefer more local engagement. You prefer being with individuals that are more like-minded in terms of art expression, in terms of inclusion. What are some of the hopes that you have for Hill Street moving forward? Poellnitz: I would love to have a community school. I want a community school. I worked for a nonprofit in City Heights and we worked with community schools that worked with juvies. They call them JCCS like Juvenile and Correction Community Schools. And they&#039 ; re like directly tied to the unified school district and the court system. At one point when I was heavily involved in politics, I was working with a former city council member in hopes of becoming like a divergent program for youth in the arts. So like, if a kid got arrested for the first time, instead of like putting them on probation and sending them to jail, you send them to like a diversion program. And the city of Carlsbad Police Department is the only police department in San Diego County that has an actual diversion program for youth. And so, you know, you get to be an organization as a choice for, for young folks and teach &#039 ; em all the skills, like how to create programming, how to run programming, how to make art. It&#039 ; s like a six-month commitment. I wanna do something more like that. I wanna have a community school. I wanna teach art the way that I experience art, the way that artists experiencing art. I wanna create a new institutional space for art practice. I don&#039 ; t know, I just really wanna grow as a bigger institution, as a choice, as an alternative choice to other places. Savo: And obviously you&#039 ; ve given a lot of thought to the idea of this community school and obviously diversion programs as well, such as Carlsbad&#039 ; s. Do you see potentially a branching out of Hill Street? Moving forward within not just North County, but also San Diego County as a whole? Do you see elements of what you&#039 ; ve been able to create and to adapt with? Do you see any of that being replicated any elsewhere in the County? Poellnitz: Um, not yet, but we partner with a lot of folks in San Diego so we are very unique because we have to adapt. One thing you learn about our institutions, old ones, they can&#039 ; t adapt. So, when they can&#039 ; t adapt, they move slow. They struggle with adapting. And one thing about us, because we don&#039 ; t, we don&#039 ; t follow institutional like, uh wisdom. A lot of us are taking in diverse knowledge from each other, practicing being inclusive. And once you do that as an action, you can make decisions a lot sooner than later. And so we&#039 ; ve been doing a lot of like partnerships and pop-ups with a lot of orgs in San Diego. I just want a community school. I want a community school. I want studio spaces for artists. I would like to have a choice for young people to learn about art and not just learn about art but have creative access to like a space where they can learn about the world and express themselves. Like I would like to have a community school. I have no aspirations to be all over San Diego County. That sounds like a lot of work. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Savo: Oh, absolutely &lt ; laughs&gt ; Poellnitz: And I worked with a lot of people in San Diego County. I love you San Diego, but North County is so special. Like us North County people, we are so innovative &#039 ; cause we&#039 ; ve had so little. And when we learn something new, we master it because we don&#039 ; t have all the museums in galleries and big budgets that San Diego has or L.A has. So we are very mom and pop and DIY in North County and we support each other. And so, I don&#039 ; t know, that&#039 ; s the civic identity for me. You know, that&#039 ; s part of my civic identity. Savo: And speaking to this, sort of bring it all back in identity, the personal, the communal, the universal that Hill Street represents. Do you think that a community school would be a perfect foster for that? And I&#039 ; m just curious about the age groups. Something I&#039 ; m actually quite interested about, would this be open to not just middle schools, the middle school age range that Oceanside education part has worked with, but would you extend that? Would you put a limited K through 12 per example? Poellnitz: I don&#039 ; t know. I don&#039 ; t know. That&#039 ; s a lot of years. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Savo: It&#039 ; s a lot of funding. Poellnitz: It&#039 ; s a lot of funding. I know that the folk at Link-Soul, they run the Goat Hill Golf course in Oceanside and it&#039 ; s already been promised to us that we will build some type of like, institution space for a community school one day. So, we&#039 ; re all dreaming like what we wanted to have. Savo: That&#039 ; s awesome. And just before we wrap up our interview here today, was there anything that we had previously discussed or discussed throughout the interview that you wanted a little bit more emphasis on or anything that you wanted to touch base with before we end today? Poellnitz: I don&#039 ; t think so. You&#039 ; re fine. Savo: Awesome. Again, thank you so much for this interview. It was really informative, and I think it&#039 ; s great to learn about how art has really grown in North County. Because I&#039 ; m from the South Bay, so I wouldn&#039 ; t know too much. But I think this was a great experience and I thank you a lot for that. Poellnitz: Oh, thank you, I appreciate that. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PoellnitzDinah_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-05.xml PoellnitzDinah_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-05.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Poellnitz, Dinah. Interview April 5, 2023. Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview of Dinah Poellnitz on April 5, 2023. Interview discusses Dinah Poellnitz’s community engagement within the city of Oceanside through art. In particular, the interview focuses on Poellnitz's involvement in the founding of the Hill Street Country Club art gallery in Oceanside, CA. Poellnitz discusses how to navigate through the art community as a Black woman, emphasizing the importance of equity and inclusion. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-025 Subject The topic of the resource Art -- Study and teaching Art galleries -- nonprofit Artists, Black Community engagement COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- Hill Street Country Club -- California -- Oceanside Women artists Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dinah Poellnitz Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Los Angeles (Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) Vista (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Dinah Poellnitz Activists and activism Art and artists Black experience Community history History Department internship Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/26d44f71fcba52e03810de0ccdac364f.pdf 3052071ffeb2f8d5a19b70fb1ec49221 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Beacham, Dora. Interview Transcript, November 1, 2024. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dora Beacham Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Adel Bautista Marilyn Huerta Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Dora Beacham License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BeachamDora_BeyerJason_2024-11-01_transcript Description An account of the resource Master Sergeant Dora Beacham served in the U.S. Marine Corps during Operation Enduring Freedom. Beacham was part of Combat Service Support Group 1 and the 11th Marine Regiment. She was deployed to Camp Fallujah, Iraq from January to August of 2004. As a Hispanic woman from a small town, Beacham reflected on how military service shaped her life and provided important opportunities. In this oral history interview, she described her family, education, and life lessons from military service. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Marine Corps United States. Marine Corps—Non-commissioned officers Operation Enduring Freedom, 2001-2014 Marine Corps Recruit Depot Parris Island United States. Marine Corps—Military occupational specialties Victim advocates United States. Marine Corps. Advanced Infantry Training Battalion Educational benefits—United States Women soldiers United States. Department of Veterans Affairs Molly Marine (Symbolic figure) Hispanic Americans Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Hondo (Tex.) South Carolina Norfolk (Va.) Twentynine Palms (Calif.) Iraq California Texas Idaho New York San Marcos (Calif.) Fallujah (Iraq) Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dora Beacham OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BeachamDora_BeyerJason_2024-11-01_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Veteran;California State University San Marcos;United States Marine Corps;Master Sergeant;Operation Enduring Freedom;Camp Fallujah;Iraq OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Beacham, Dora. Interview November 1st, 2024 SC027-069 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran ; California State University San Marcos ; United States Marine Corps ; Master Sergeant ; Operation Enduring Freedom ; Camp Fallujah ; Iraq Dora Beacham Jason Beyer Moving image BeachamDora_BeyerJason_2024-11-01_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/45e2396211b4ed28f7ed29a6dc245346.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 66 Personal Background Dora Ann Beacham served in the U.S. Marine Corps during Operation Enduring Freedom and reached her highest rank of Master Sergeant E8. She was born in Hondo, Texas. United States Marine Corps ; Master Sergeant ; E8 ; Operation Enduring Freedom ; Hondo (Tex.) ; Army ; babysitting 0 120 Military Enlistment Beacham says she chose to enlist in the U.S. Marine Corps because she was impressed by the uniforms of the service members’ who visited her junior high school. United States Marine Corps ; G.I. Joe ; school ; uniform ; junior high 0 169 Basic Training and First Assignment Beacham completed her basic training at Parris Island, South Carolina. She then went to Norfolk, Virginia for MOS 0411 logistics. She recalls excelling at the male obstacle course during field training. One of her least favorite experiences was taking off her flak jacket after hikes. Her first assignment was Combat Service Support Group 1 at Twentynine Palms, California. There she spent lots of time training in the desert with weapons, vehicles, and equipment. basic training ; Parris Island ; South Carolina ; MOS ; Military Occupational Specialty ; logistics ; Norfolk (Va.) ; bootcamp ; O course ; obstacle course ; field training ; hike ; flak jacket ; Twentynine Palms (Calif.) ; SAW ; M249 Squad Automatic Weapon ; 50 cal. ; M203 grenade launcher ; drill instructor ; Humvee ; grenade ; uniformed victim advocate ; sexual assault 0 412 Promotions Beacham was promoted to Corporal meritoriously. She then picked up Gunnery Sergeant while on recruiting as a Staff Sergeant. She finally reached Master Sergeant while at the Advanced Infantry Training Battalion. promotion ; Master Sergeant ; Corporal ; meritorious ; Staff Sergeant ; Gunnery Sergeant ; Advanced Infantry Training Battalion ; Marine Corps 0 467 Adapting to Military Life Although many people say bootcamp was the hardest part of adapting to the military lifestyle, Beacham says it was harder after bootcamp because you have to make your own decisions. She says being away from home became easy after a while. bootcamp ; Marine Corps ; home 0 514 Interactions with People During Stateside Service People often made comments about Beacham’s short height of 4’11” and were surprised to learn that she was a Marine. She says that most people showed her respect and thanked her for her service. Marine ; service 0 546 Wartime Service in Iraq for Operation Enduring Freedom Beacham was stationed in Camp Fallujah, Iraq, from January to August of 2004 as part of Operation Enduring Freedom. She worked tireless hours to provide support to individuals and Marines. Operation Enduring Freedom ; Camp Fallujah ; Iraq ; support ; Marines 0 601 Interactions with Local Cultures While Deployed Beacham says she learned a lot and had positive interactions with local cultures during her deployment. cultures ; music ; traditions ; values ; career 0 633 Combat Service Support Beacham was part of Combat Service Support Group 1 and the 11th Marine Regiment. She says her field training helped prepare her for Iraq. Combat Service Support Group 1 ; training ; deploying ; 11th Marine Regiment ; single ; desert ; Iraq 0 693 Friendships and Comradery Beacham formed many strong relationships. Working logistics helped her make connections with people in different roles. One of her most valuable experiences was with the Marines at the Advanced Infantry Training Battalion, where there were few women there. Beacham had to learn what they did and do all their logistics. friendship ; comradery ; relationship ; logistics ; supply ; inspection ; MOS ; Marines ; Advanced Infantry Training Battalion ; infantry ; females ; training 0 760 Communication with Family and Friends While Deployed in Iraq Beacham kept in touch with family and friends through email and phone calls. She communicated often with her husband and mother. family ; friends ; communication ; emails ; phone calls ; married ; son ; husband ; mother 0 796 Recreation in the Service While off-duty, Beacham would take walks around the perimeter to make sure everyone stayed safe. For recreation, she watched recorded DVDs, including lots of CSI. She also recalls being at the gym. She says it was funny watching people teach each other how to work out. recreation ; walking ; daylight ; evening ; DVDs ; CSI ; humorous ; Iraq ; runners ; gym ; working out 0 878 About Good Luck Beacham says everything happens for a reason, so she would not have any good luck if she did not have bad luck. luck ; good luck ; bad luck 0 912 End of Military Service Beacham recalls the ceremony held at Camp Pendleton to celebrate her end of military service. She reflected on the significance of her retirement given her personal background. end of service ; Camp Pendleton ; California ; Marine Corps ; retire 0 964 Living in California Beacham and her husband decided to stay in California where her son was already in school. She still visits her family often. home ; husband ; son ; school ; California ; family 0 994 Family, Community, School, and Readjusting to Civilian Life Beacham’s family respects her and often turns to her for support. After retirement, she has spent much of her time doing school and traveling for her son’s athletics. She says the community and lack of structure helped her decompress after years of military service. Her time in school helped her pursue a career as a social worker supporting veterans. family ; community ; Marine Corps ; respectful ; civilian life ; son ; teenage ; boys ; soccer ; mom ; school ; traveling ; Marines ; mindfulness ; empathy ; psychology ; social worker 0 1096 Experience with the G.I. Bill The G.I. Bill was important for Beacham because it gave her an opportunity to get an education and decide who she wanted to be. G.I. Bill ; school ; psychology ; social work ; opportunities ; military 0 1160 Keeping Friendships After Military Service and Joining Veterans Organizations Beacham still keeps friendships. She stays connected mostly through email and phone calls because many people returned home after service. friendships ; Texas ; Idaho ; New York ; Cal State ; California ; email ; phone calls ; veterans organization ; San Marcos (Calif.) 0 1210 How Military Service Changed Beacham's Life As a Hispanic woman from a small town, Beacham reflects on the limited opportunities she had. Her military service helped her get an education, achieve financial security, and build wealth for future generations. Beacham thinks the values she learned as a Marine have guided her in life, and she has passed those values onto younger family members. reflection ; service ; life ; community ; faith ; family ; Hispanic ; female ; opportunities ; education ; financial security ; pension ; generational wealth ; children ; Marine Corps ; school ; Chapter 35 ; ID card ; commissary ; nieces 0 1355 Life Lessons from Military Service Military service taught Beacham about the powerful impact that an individual can have on somebody else. She saw how the people she influenced would influence others. life lessons ; military service ; Marine Corps ; deployment 0 1451 Message for Future Generations Beacham reflects on how her gender, ethnicity, and race have shaped her identity and who she represents. She wants future generations to know that they can be successful. She believes that her experience in the Marine Corps made her an all-around better person. message ; future generations ; gender ; ethnicity ; race ; background ; Marine Corps ; successful ; family ; children ; grandchildren ; determination ; cultures ; male ; diversity ; mother ; student ; instructor 0 1586 Association with the Campus Community of CSU San Marcos Beacham became associated with the CSUSM campus community through the interviewer, Jason Beyer. She met veterans who help other veterans, which inspired her career as a social worker supporting veterans. CSUSM ; campus community ; community ; service members ; veterans ; Veterans Affairs ; VA ; benefits 0 1661 Bootcamp Story Beacham shares a story from bootcamp. She was nominated “Molly Marine” by her platoon for being the most engaged, supportive, and motivated. bootcamp ; Marine Corps ; awards ; PFT ; Physical Fitness Test ; sharpshooter ; highest shooter ; Molly Marine ; vote ; platoon ; chow hall ; drill instructor ; recruit 0 1772 What More People Should Know About Veterans Beacham wishes more people knew that veterans need assistance, even if sometimes they do not seek it. Veterans may be strong and independent, but they are also vulnerable. veterans ; vulnerable ; assistance ; support ; independent 0 1809 Lesson Learned from Military Experience—Keep a Journal Beacham wishes she had kept a journal while in the service. Although she has plenty of photos and folders, there are many experiences she never wrote down. lessons ; journal ; military experience ; photos ; pictures ; folders ; SPIE rigging ; Special Patrol Insertion/Extraction ; helicopter ; infantrymen ; boat 0 Oral history Master Sergeant Dora Beacham served in the U.S. Marine Corps during Operation Enduring Freedom. Beacham was part of Combat Service Support Group 1 and the 11th Marine Regiment. She was deployed to Camp Fallujah, Iraq from January to August of 2004. As a Hispanic woman from a small town, Beacham reflected on how military service shaped her life and provided important opportunities. In this oral history interview, she described her family, education, and life lessons from military service. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.084 --> 00:01:06.594 My name is Jason Beyer. I'm a graduate of California State University of San Marcos. Today I will be doing an oral history and interviewing Dora Ann Beacham. Today's date is November 1, 2024. We are located in the Kellogg Library of CSUSM at 333 South Twin Oaks Valley Road, San Marcos, California 92069. I am a Marine Corps veteran and graduate of Cal State San Marcos, along with the interviewee, Dora Beacham. Today there are people attending—myself, the interviewee, Adel Bautista is the camera operator, and Marilyn Huerta. The purpose of this interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your first, middle, and last name, branch of service, highest rank attained, and the war or conflict you served in. 00:01:06.594 --> 00:01:23.594 Good morning, Jason. My name is Dora Ann Beacham. (Redacted.) I served in the United States Marine Corps. My highest rank was Master Sergeant E8, and I served in the Operation Enduring Freedom. 00:01:23.594 --> 00:01:30.465 Thank you, Dora. So we'll begin with some biographical details. Where were you born? 00:01:30.465 --> 00:01:33.344 I was born in Hondo, Texas. 00:01:33.344 --> 00:01:37.355 Does your family have any past military affiliations with the military? 00:01:37.355 --> 00:01:48.015 I had two uncles at the time that were in the Marine Corps—well, one of 'em was in the Marine Corps, the other one was in the Army. And those were the only people that served or family members that served at the time. 00:01:48.015 --> 00:01:53.064 Did you hold any jobs before entering the military? 00:01:53.064 --> 00:02:00.545 I held jobs as far as like babysitting, but no actual formal employments. 00:02:00.545 --> 00:02:08.495 When and why did you choose to join the military? And where were you—were you drafted or did you enlist? 00:02:08.495 --> 00:02:30.115 I actually enlisted in the Marine Corps, and the reason that I've always said that I joined the Marine Corps was since I was in junior high, I used to like to play with the G.I. Joe, little miniature (laughs) toys that I had. And that's the reason I joined. But also once I went to talk to a recruiter, it was more about getting an education. 00:02:30.115 --> 00:02:31.835 And which branch did you enter? 00:02:31.835 --> 00:02:33.194 It was the United States Marine Corps. 00:02:33.194 --> 00:02:35.715 And why did you choose that branch? 00:02:35.715 --> 00:02:49.835 The reason I chose it—I have to honestly say when they came into the school, it was the uniform. I mean, I think everybody says that it's the uniform looked so crisp and clean and that was my main reason. 00:02:49.835 --> 00:02:56.664 So for your early days of service, what type of training or school did you have? 00:02:56.664 --> 00:02:59.004 So prior to the Marine Corps, you're asking? 00:02:59.004 --> 00:03:04.645 Once you went to basic training—well, let's start off. Where did you go to basic training at? 00:03:04.645 --> 00:03:07.465 I went to South Carolina, Parris Island. 00:03:07.465 --> 00:03:13.164 And from Paris Island, what MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) school or training did you have after that? 00:03:13.164 --> 00:03:19.485 I had—my MOS was 0411 logistics, and I was in Norfolk, Virginia. 00:03:19.485 --> 00:03:27.185 What is the most vivid memory, both best and worst parts of your time training or in school? 00:03:27.185 --> 00:04:25.845 Let's see. So I remember it was probably—I would say it is my best. The bootcamp one stands out to me only because I'm, you know, four-foot 11'' and we had to go do the O course (obstacle course), but we did the male's O course 'cause it was during our field training. And I remember the drill instructors telling us, "Hey, so this is how you're gonna do it." So they'd put a recruit on the bottom and you'd step on their back and you'd try to jump up. And of course it was my turn. So I was just being me and determined. So I just hit the wall and jumped over and I didn't need nobody. So after that they took it away. So it was actually the best moment for me, but probably not the girls behind me. So, that was probably my best. As far as the worst, I would have to say, even though I finished my hikes, those are probably the worst 'cause you'd end up at the very end taking off your flak jacket. And once you take off your flak jacket, your back is just like crumbling. But that would probably be the worst. It's just at the very end. 00:04:25.845 --> 00:04:29.035 What was your first assignment after basic training? 00:04:29.035 --> 00:05:11.035 My first duty station—and I say it tricked me because I went to Twentynine Palms. It was Combat Service Support Group 1. And during that timeframe, coming straight from bootcamp and doing all that training, going straight to Twentynine Palms, we spent a lot of time in the desert, right in the field. And I was able to—I wouldn't say play with dynamite, but we were able to use dynamite, right? And the M203 grenade launcher, the SAW (M249 Squad Automatic Weapon), the 50 cal.—and this is all we did when we were there in Twentynine Palms is the field time, field time, field time. So, it kind of tricked me because I thought that's all I was gonna do the rest of the time, but it wasn't (laughs). 00:05:11.035 --> 00:05:17.334 Did you recall your instructors while you were at Twentynine Palms? If so, what were they like? 00:05:17.334 --> 00:05:35.925 I don't recall my instructors from Twentynine Palms. I do remember my drill instructors that were there, and that was Sergeant Wilson was our senior, Sergeant Rackey, and then Sergeant Shepherd. 00:05:35.925 --> 00:05:48.014 Do you qualify—did you qualify with equipment such as vehicles, aircraft, radios, weapons? If yes, what was training with that equipment like? 00:05:48.014 --> 00:06:52.675 I think one of the trainings I got was driving a Humvee. That was interesting, being short, but I was able to do that. Obviously I trained with a lot of different weapons when I was in Twentynine Palms. The one that stands out to me the most was the M203 grenade launcher, simply because you put it on your shoulder and the first time it goes off, you're like, Oh my God, that hurt. The second time is worse. So I remember that. I remember training with grenades and having the instructors—if it was too close, they'd like, tackle you and throw you on the ground once you threw it. So I remember those incidents. Other than that, the trainings I went to, instructors training were—I was trained on giving classes and I was also trained on uniformed victim advocate, which was actually servicing service members who were sexually assaulted or any type of victims in that manner for military members. Those are the ones that I recall off the top of my head. 00:06:52.675 --> 00:06:57.524 Did you receive any promotions and could you tell me about them? 00:06:57.524 --> 00:07:47.485 Yes. I received promotions all the way up to Master Sergeant. The one that stands out to me the most at the beginning was Corporal because I got that meritoriously. So to me that was pretty awesome. After that, I got promoted. The other one that stands out to me as being on recruiting as a Staff Sergeant, and I picked up Gunny (Gunnery Sergeant) when I was out there. And the joke was, wow, as soon as the message board came out—my certificate was right after that—is they'd make a joke 'cause I was getting promoted first. And then of course Master Sergeant, that was my favorite promotion and that was because I received it when I was at the Advanced Infantry Training Battalion. And that was by far the most probably fun but also learning experience that I had in my Marine Corps career. 00:07:47.485 --> 00:07:56.105 What was the hardest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? Why do you think it was? 00:07:56.105 --> 00:08:34.784 I would have to go back to—not bootcamp. Bootcamp wasn't the hardest, that's what I always heard—but I would have to say that after bootcamp was probably the hardest, when you first start. 'Cause you're so used to getting instructions on what to do. And once you join the Marine Corps, it's like nobody's telling you what to do. You have to make your own decisions. So whether you fall or you succeed, it's on you. So that would probably be the hardest. As far as the easiest, I think being away from home started off being hard, but the more time I served it was probably the easiest part is being away from home. 00:08:34.784 --> 00:08:41.075 What were your interactions like with people you encountered during your stateside service? 00:08:41.075 --> 00:09:06.183 One of the most popular or most eventful I guess one I'd hear was I'd tell somebody I was a Marine and they would kind of like, "You're a Marine?" I'm four-foot 11,'' so being—and petite—so people would always think like, "You're a Marine?" They couldn't believe it. But I think majority of the people that did see me, they always showed me respect and thanked me for my service. That was greatly appreciated. Those were the most common remarks. 00:09:06.183 --> 00:09:14.683 So now we're going to get into wartime service if it's applicable. What wartime conflicts were you a part of? 00:09:14.683 --> 00:09:23.125 I served under Operation Enduring Freedom. I was stationed in Camp Fallujah. 00:09:23.125 --> 00:09:25.174 And that's where, Camp Fallujah? 00:09:25.174 --> 00:09:26.815 Iraq. 00:09:26.815 --> 00:09:29.000 What are your recollections of that experience? 00:09:29.000 --> 00:10:01.195 It was from January 2004 to August of 2004. I would say that it was a lot of hours of working, and we provided a lot of support to the people that—to the individuals and Marines that were out there. A lot of needed support. And so even though we worked tireless hours, I believe it was worth it to make sure that it was for the safety of the Marines that were out there. 00:10:01.195 --> 00:10:07.445 What were your interactions like with local cultures and the people you encountered during deployment? 00:10:07.445 --> 00:10:33.154 The different cultures that I encountered, I think were all positive. I learned a lot, whether it was foods or different music that everybody listened to. Maybe different traditions—and of course values. So I think it was just something positive that I learned throughout my career, interacting and engaging with people of different cultures. 00:10:33.154 --> 00:10:42.565 Were you in combat, combat support, or combat service support roles? Or did the war zone make that designation irrelevant for you? 00:10:42.565 --> 00:11:33.475 No, I—like I said at the beginning, I was at Combat Service Support Group 1 and we did a lot of training out in the field. It was all about deploying and being in the field and preparing me. I also was with the 11th Marine Regiment. We were always in the field then, too. I was the lucky one. I think I was single till I was 29. And so I was—people might think it was a bad thing, but I thought it was a great thing that I was always picked first because I was single, so it was easier to send me. So I spent a lot of time learning a lot of the idea of being or actually training in the field in the desert, which prepared me, I think for Iraq—being out there in the heat and being away from everybody and living in tents and just transitioning from tent to building if necessary. So I think a lot of that prepared me for being out there. 00:11:33.475 --> 00:11:42.485 What kinds of friendships and comradery did you form while serving and with whom? 00:11:42.485 --> 00:12:40.044 I gained a lot of relationships, not only with the peers that were in my job but also that were connected to my job. Since I did logistics, I worked a lot with supply. I had a lot of relationships there. Different inspection teams would come out and inspect us, so I gained relationships, and I was taught a lot about our own MOS. One of the most valuable experiences and teachings that I learned—and interactions—was with—having relationships with Marines that were at the Advanced Infantry Training Battalion. It was mainly infantry, and there was just a few females there that you could probably count on one hand that were there. And I learned a lot as far as what they do, what they train, and what's needed. I did it—I did all their logistics for them. So it was important to know that they need all those supplies in order to train before they can even deploy it. 00:12:40.044 --> 00:12:47.683 How did you stay in touch with your family and friends? Did you choose to keep communication with them while deployed in Iraq? 00:12:47.683 --> 00:13:16.644 So I did a lot of interactions through the computer. I sent a lot of emails. We were able to make phone calls, so every so often I would be able to make a phone call home. I—at the time I was married and my son was only nine months old, so I was able to communicate with my husband a lot—not with him so much 'cause, you know, he really didn't talk—and with my mother. I think I communicated with her at least once a week to make sure she knew that I was safe. 00:13:16.644 --> 00:13:21.924 What did you do for recreation or when you were off duty in Iraq? 00:13:21.924 --> 00:13:55.575 I would say the few times that I was off—well, we were off probably daily for a little bit, whether it was lunch or in the evening before we walked back to our quarters. And I did walking, like, within the wall to make sure that we stayed safe, unless they otherwise stated not to. And it was usually during daylight. During the evening it was a little bit more difficult. So, I would say walking. And I watched a lot of DVDs—recorded DVDs—at night, of CSI (laughs). 00:13:55.575 --> 00:14:01.914 Do you recall any particularly humorous or unusual events while deployed in Iraq? 00:14:01.914 --> 00:14:38.315 Um, humorous—I would say being at the gym was probably the most humorous because you had everybody that used to run and stuff like that that wasn't able to would be in the gym working out. So you—the interesting and the funny part is watching everybody that wasn't used to and not knowing how were in there, learning how to work out. 'Cause you know, there were more runners but the gym people actually knew what they were doing and they would show us—Hey, this is how you work this body part. So I would think that was probably the funniest. 00:14:38.315 --> 00:14:45.034 Was there something that you did personally for good luck while deployed in Iraq? 00:14:45.034 --> 00:15:12.445 I wouldn't say that it has to do with Iraq, I would think general in my life, I've always said if it wasn't for bad luck, I would have no luck. So I've always believed in turning my bad luck into something. I believe things happen for a reason. So to me, if it looked like bad luck, it wasn't. It was meant to be and it's gonna turn out later on as something good. There's a reason why that occurred. So even though it could be considered bad luck, it was always my good luck. 00:15:12.445 --> 00:15:24.085 Now we're moving towards the end of service. Do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you, and when was your service ended? 00:15:24.085 --> 00:16:04.894 Well, on my last day—I say physical because the actual last day was at home because you take vacation. But on my last physical date, I had my big ceremony, something that I had been waiting for for years. I was on Camp Pendleton, California, on the green grassy lawn that's out there. I had the band come out and play. And I would tell you it—what I remember, it was a day full of gratitude and proud moments of being able to accomplish it. You know, I wasn't—I didn't just join the Marine Corps. I was able to retire, which says a lot for myself and where my background of where I came from. 00:16:04.894 --> 00:16:11.495 Did you return home after service or were you—where were you and where did you go? 00:16:11.495 --> 00:16:34.075 So, we had actually established a home, my husband and I, in California. My son was in school so we decided to stay. However, I did return home and visit family. And I still do—I still return and see them. But we thought it was important to keep our family here in California and have my son continue in the school he was in. 00:16:34.075 --> 00:16:41.174 How were you received by your family and community once you completed your time in the Marine Corps? 00:16:41.174 --> 00:17:07.605 I would say what I've noticed as far—with my family—is they're very accepting, respectful of me, my time and service. In fact, if ever they need something, I'm the person they call. They believe that I'm the person that is gonna find the answer. "She'll find it, she'll figure it out." They have so much confidence that anything they need that I can just look it up or read or learn about it and it'll be there (laughs). 00:17:07.605 --> 00:17:15.845 How did you readjust to civilian life? Did you work or did you go back to school? 00:17:15.845 --> 00:18:16.993 I took a month off is probably what I recall—I don't think I've stopped since then—to join—basically my son played soccer and I was the soccer traveling mom for a bunch of boys age seven to 17 basically. And I traveled all around the states and a couple of countries. I actually joined—started school in August after I retired, which is just a few months afterwards. And I believe that doing that—traveling and meeting different people and having a different type of non-structured life—helped me adjust into the community area, which I think all Marines need, right? We need to like decompress a little bit. And it actually helped, you know, running around with a bunch of teenage boys playing soccer and helping them out. And also I learned a lot at school. You know, I learned mindfulness. I learned empathy and stuff, and psychology, and as far as being a social worker, and I think that helped me a lot—readjust to the community. 00:18:16.993 --> 00:18:20.115 Did the G.I. Bill affect you? 00:18:20.115 --> 00:19:20.394 Oh wow. The G.I. Bill has had like an enormous—it played an enormous amount in my life. Not only was I able to go to school. I think that the G.I. Bill helped me by going to school and learning the different psychology parts and social work parts. It helped me align with the fact of what I wanted to be. Growing up I didn't have that many opportunities. So the option was the military, right? 'Cause we didn't have money to go to school or other things—any type of professional career. So it kind of linked with, you know, what I learned at school to what I wanted to become. And what it taught me was, Hey, I didn't have opportunities, but I took what was available. And there's individuals that may not join the military, but they don't have—they're not aware of other opportunities. And I think the G.I. Bill helped me learn that I wanna help others have other opportunities in whichever manner or whichever path they wanna take. 00:19:20.394 --> 00:19:26.125 Did you continue any friendships after service? And if so, for how long? 00:19:26.125 --> 00:19:54.875 Well, I have plenty of friendships that I keep. They're mainly online because, like you asked, did I go back home? No. But a lot of other individuals that were my friends and colleagues, they did go home. They did go back to Texas or Idaho or New York or wherever it was that they were originally from. And I stayed up in Cal State and California. And there are a few here that I still are in communication with, but mainly through like email and phone calls. 00:19:54.875 --> 00:19:57.434 Did you join any veteran organizations? 00:19:57.434 --> 00:20:10.025 Yes, I did. I joined the veterans organization here in San Marcos. And I think that was it. I think that's the only organizations that I've joined so far. 00:20:10.025 --> 00:20:21.855 How was—so now we're moving on to reflections. How has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:20:21.855 --> 00:22:35.944 I would have to say, if I start with me being a Hispanic female from a small town who didn't, like I said, didn't have many opportunities, I'm able to have better opportunities for education, financial security. I could tell you that the—my pension that I get actually helped me establish a foundation for the next generation. You know, we talk about generational wealth, and I think it starts with me. And, you know, I'm able to provide that for my son and then hope for his children, right? So I think that's the financial security. But not only that, the Marine Corps brought a lot of structure and values and stuff that you take in and you utilize not only in service but afterwards, whether it is education or whether it is a career path. And I think it provided a lot of value that has made me who I am, who I've become. As far as from my family, like I said, it's—my son has more opportunities than I had. He's able to attend school, he's able to use Chapter 35, what we have for his education. He used his ID card for many years going to the commissary when we were enlisted. And I believe the values and what I learned in the Marine Corps I was able to push onto him. And he has a lot of respect for others, and he doesn't take stuff for granted. I think it's based off what I learned in the service. And as far as for my family outside of that, I think it showed in the fact that I have two nieces that followed my footsteps into the Marine Corps. And I think what I showed them that they saw when they came to visit me and who I was and what I represented, it helped them say, "Hey, that's what I wanna be, that's what I wanna do." And the same thing for my son. My son didn't take the Marine Corps path, but he's like, "No, I need to be successful like my mom and my father"—'cause we're both military. So I think that's the impact that it had in my life, as far as my family. 00:22:35.944 --> 00:22:40.275 What are some of the life lessons you've learned from your military service? 00:22:40.275 --> 00:24:11.214 Hmm, life lessons. I've thought about this a lot, and I would say the most important life lesson that I got from the Marine Corps was how powerful an impact that an individual can have on somebody else. And in the Marine Corps, I recall so many times that I worked with my Marines—young Marines or even my peers—and, you know, we'd be doing a simple task or doing something to help one of the other companies or anything that we were doing, and I'd always have to tell 'em to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Look at what else is occurring. And they were able to do that, and they would even pass it on to somebody else. "You gotta look at the bigger picture." And I think sometimes they knew what that meant and what I was getting at. But the basis of it is that what you're doing now, the task you're doing now, affects the mission, what we're doing, maybe a deployment, but it also affects what you do in the future, right? Like what you're doing now, whether it's a goal, whether it's school, whether it's a task, learning discipline, right? Grit, right? You know, facing adversity? You take that along with you and it's gonna impact the rest of your life, whether it's in the service, out of service—and who you are, what you become, and how will people look at you. And I would say that that was my biggest learning lesson is that the impact that you have on somebody else could affect, you know, them down the road. 00:24:11.214 --> 00:24:20.025 What message would you like to leave for future generations who will view or hear this interview? 00:24:20.025 --> 00:26:26.075 So I'd have to start off with who I am, who I represent. And it has to be with, you know, gender, ethnicity, race, my background, right? And I would have to say that for someone who's looking at joining the service—I say Marine Corps, but you can join any service—and you are gonna gain so many opportunities to not only be successful, but to be accomplished, right? And I will reiterate, it's not just in service, it's afterwards. You know, how successful you can be in the future. How successful your family can be, your children, your grandchildren, right? So I would tell 'em that when you're thinking about this is, you can do it. Like, it's possible. So stay focused and look at, you know, if I can do it and being, you know, four-foot 11'', I think anybody else can do it with a little bit of hard work and determination. And the other part of the legacy—'cause I can't exclude my counterparts—I have to include everybody else that were male—diversity from gender, race, different ethnicities, different cultures—is that the value you gain from the Marine Corps is important for you to be, as far as a citizen of the United States, what you learn here, the values you gain, the friendships that you learn and engage in, is gonna make you that better person, that better citizen, a better father, a better mother, a better student, a better instructor, right? Because I think we teach people throughout our lifetimes, whether we're in a classroom or not. And I would say to everybody else that it's worth it. So the legacy I would like to leave is that for everybody else is that, "Hey, if you're determined and if you set your mind to do something, you can. You just, you know, gotta push through all the adversity sometimes, and the struggles, but it's doable." 00:26:26.075 --> 00:26:30.894 How did you become associated with the CSUSM campus community? 00:26:30.894 --> 00:27:41.704 I would say, the community that we're working with now, how I normally got associated with is through you, Jason. Like a lot of times, you would bring to light that, Hey, this is going on. And it was awesome to hear that there was somebody that was that dedicated to, you know, bringing some light into other service members with events and opportunities that were out there for them to engage with other veterans, right? And I would say a lot of it was through word of mouth. I mean, you weren't the only one. I mean, you for sure were one of the most important ones in my last two years, but I ran into a lot of veterans that were doing some good work and supporting other veterans, and I think that's why I picked also the career path I'm working with is social work and I am gonna work with the VA (Veterans Affairs) here in a couple of days. And I think working with a lot of veterans at CSUSM, I learned that, hey, service members need support no matter which branch of service it is. And it's important for us to be there for them and provide them with—whether we have more knowledge of the benefits that might be beneficial to them. 00:27:41.704 --> 00:27:56.000 So in conclusion, I'd like to say thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of military service. Is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never have? 00:27:56.000 --> 00:29:32.644 Okay, I would say that one of the things that stands out to me was I remember being in bootcamp, and there's a lot of awards you get throughout the Marine Corps and bootcamp. You could get like first class PFT (Physical Fitness Test) or sharpshooter, highest shooter, right? And, one of the things that I recall the most is being a Molly Marine. You get voted by your peers on who was the most motivated and who was the one that was most engaged and supportive. And, by my peers and my platoon, I was chosen that—and the reason I bring that up is 'cause I remember this story and it was like funny. We were at the chow hall, and if anybody can remember being in the Marine Corps and leaving the chow hall, you always had the drill instructors yelling at you and like, "Hurry up, eat," you know? "You're done," you know, "You're done recruit." And I was always pushed on by my drill instructor to go in there and get everybody outta the chow hall. We're done, we need to be finished. So I did, right? You know, here I am yelling, and I'm a recruit. And being little, right? And this drill instructor—male drill instructor—came up to me and was like, got in my face, and of course he looked down, right? 'Cause I'm short. He's like, "What are you doing?" And like, just stopped me. And my drill instructor of course jumped in because you know, he didn't realize that I was doing what she had asked. But it was probably, one of the things that I like never told anybody as far as that's concerned. But I think that was one of the events that led me to being nominated as and picked as Molly Marine because of always being out there yelling, motivating, always being engaged and never like backing down from, you know, a task that was there. 00:29:32.644 --> 00:29:37.134 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 00:29:37.134 --> 00:30:09.315 I would say that, as much as we've gained a lot of physical and mental toughness, that veterans are vulnerable. Veterans do need assistance and sometimes they may not seek it. Sometimes they will refuse to seek assistance. And it's important to continue to engage and look out for them and interact with them because a lot of them won't seek support because we're so used to being independent and strong—strong-minded, strong-willed. 00:30:09.315 --> 00:30:18.815 So last question. In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 00:30:18.815 --> 00:31:32.154 I think one of the lessons learned—and if I could tell somebody who's just starting off right now—is get a journal. I have plenty of photos of things I did, but as I was going through this and looking at pictures and going through folders—oh my god, I did a lot. There was so many things that I experienced that I didn't write down. And, you know, 15, 20, 30 years from now—hopefully I'm still alive—I won't be able to recall those, and it would've been nice to know that, hey, yeah, you know what? You were out there SPIE (Special Patrol Insertion/Extraction) rigging at the bottom of a rope on a helicopter, right? With a unit of infantrymen because they're like, "Hey, you wanna join us?" Sure, let's go. Or I was on a raft platoon boat out in the middle of the ocean that isn't usually offered, but because I was ordering specific parts for them and I got them the parts at a certain timely manner they needed it, they asked me to join in. And those are just a couple of the instances that I remember of things that I was able to do. And I probably—well, I wish now that I would've recorded them somewhere so I could recall them later and maybe share those stories. 00:31:32.154 --> 00:31:37.654 Thank you for your time today. This concludes our oral history. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BeachamDora_BeyerJason_2024-11-01_access.xml BeachamDora_BeyerJason_2024-11-01_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Beacham, Dora. Interview November 1st, 2024 Description An account of the resource Master Sergeant Dora Beacham served in the U.S. Marine Corps during Operation Enduring Freedom. Beacham was part of Combat Service Support Group 1 and the 11th Marine Regiment. She was deployed to Camp Fallujah, Iraq from January to August of 2004. As a Hispanic woman from a small town, Beacham reflected on how military service shaped her life and provided important opportunities. In this oral history interview, she described her family, education, and life lessons from military service. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-069 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-01 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dora Beacham Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Dora Beacham License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <div id="dublin-core-license" class="element"> <div class="element-text five columns omega"> <p><a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><span>https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</span></a></p> </div> </div> Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Subject The topic of the resource United States. Marine Corps United States. Marine Corps—Non-commissioned officers Operation Enduring Freedom, 2001-2014 Marine Corps Recruit Depot Parris Island United States. Marine Corps—Military occupational specialties Victim advocates United States. Marine Corps. Advanced Infantry Training Battalion Educational benefits—United States Women soldiers United States. Department of Veterans Affairs Molly Marine (Symbolic figure) Hispanic Americans Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Hondo (Tex.) South Carolina Norfolk (Va.) Twentynine Palms (Calif.) Iraq California Texas Idaho New York San Marcos (Calif.) Fallujah (Iraq) Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/9f2c03d328b7a2764ecb18b7c98c5ba1.pdf 45257bd03df6b4dc94d0da8b823f204f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Luevano, Dora. Interview transcript, November 6, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dora Luevano served as a corporal in the U.S. Marine Corps. She was stationed at Camp Pendleton during the Vietnam War. Luevano worked in a warehouse and office, processing deceased servicemembers, collecting their personal effects, and writing letters to their family and loved ones. Luevano described her strict upbringing, immigration to the U.S. as a child from El Salvador, and decision to enlist in the Marine Corps. Luevano was forced out of military service for getting married and having a child, and she reflected on the harsh expectations and regulations that affected women in military service. She spoke about her 60-year marriage to her husband, whom she met in the Marine Corps, and their life together after military service. Luevano described how her civilian life was shaped by her upbringing, religion, military service, education, professional career, business ownership, and husband’s recent passing. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dora Luevano Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-11-06 Subject The topic of the resource United States. Marine Corps Pacific Bell Telephone Company Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Camp Lejeune (N.C.) California State University, San Bernardino Palomar College Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam San Salvador (El Salvador) El Salvador United States San Francisco (Calif.) South Carolina New York Fallbrook (Calif.) Las Vegas (Nev.) California Palm Desert (Calif.) Indio (Calif.) Palm Springs (Calif.) Philippines Vista (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Dora Luevano License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LuevanoDora_BeyerJason_2025-11-6_transcript Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dora Luevano OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LuevanoDora_BeyerJason_2025-11-6.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Luevano, Dora. Interview November 6th, 2025 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veteran U.S. Marine Corps Corporal San Francisco (Calif.) San Salvador (El Salvador) Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Fallbrook (Calif.) Dora Luevano Jason Beyer Moving Image LuevanoDora_BeyerJason_2025-11-6.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f521e4bb2ad98141aead0a88138f8bc3.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and Military Background Dora Luevano was a corporal in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War. United States Marine Corps ; corporal ; Vietnam 0 54 Childhood and Immigration to the United States Luevano was born in San Salvador, El Salvador, where she lived in poverty and was raised by her grandmother. Her father immigrated to the U.S. and worked on shipyards. At age nine, Luevano was sent to live with her father and later was joined by her grandmother, who continued to help raise her. Luevano became a U.S. citizen and spent the rest of her childhood in San Francisco. She described her father as “extremely strict,” which motivated her to enlist in the Marine Corps after graduating from high school. San Salvador (El Salvador) ; United States ; San Francisco (Calif.) ; mesón ; mesones ; El Salvador ; school ; children ; sister ; grandmother ; father 0 271 Work, School, Family Life, and Military Enlistment Luevano described working multiple jobs after graduating from high school, yet she could not afford college tuition. Her father refused to sign required forms for her enlistment in the Marine Corps, so her grandmother signed the forms as her guardian. high school ; college ; tuition ; job ; Pacific Bell Telephone Company ; long distance operator ; Market Street (San Francisco) ; Marine Corps 0 439 Early Military Experience and Training Unlike most of her peers, Luevano enjoyed bootcamp and adapted to military life easily. She enjoyed marches and military training. Many of her peers went AWOL or struggled to complete tasks. Luevano was proud when she completed her training and believes she “made something” of herself despite the challenges of her upbringing. Her first assignment after basic training was in the 24 Area at Camp Pendleton, where she processed deceased servicemembers, collected their personal effects, and wrote letters to their family and loved ones. Most of the deceased were young Marines serving in the Vietnam War. Luevano met her husband at the warehouse she worked at. Her husband served in the Marines for 16 years, and the two of them were together for 60 years until his recent passing. According to Luevano, she would have happily continued a career in the Marine Corps, but contemporary rules forced her out of military service when she got married and had a child. bootcamp ; AWOL ; Absent Without Leave ; Reveille ; South Carolina ; drill instructor ; commanding officer ; San Salvador ; military ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; 24 Area (Camp Pendleton) ; office ; deceased ; letter ; warehouse ; Vietnam ; husband ; Camp Lejeune (N.C.) ; Marine Corps ; corporal 0 914 Adapting to Military Life and Social Experiences Luevano adapted easily to taking orders in the military because of her strict upbringing. She says she loved her military service and “got along with everyone” at Camp Pendleton. Male Marines flirted with her, and female Marines teased her and called her “Boot.” Luevano says she made lots of friends, and her social skills helped her professional career. strict ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Navy ; Marine ; New York (United States) ; mess hall ; cancer 0 1137 Military Service During the Vietnam War Luevano described processing deceased servicemembers, many of whom were deployed to Vietnam and younger than 20 years old. She handled the deceased’s personal belongings to ensure that family members and loved ones would not be upset by anything they received. By the time Luevano was forced out of military service, the warehouse she worked in was filled with boxes of the deceased’s belongings. Vietnam ; California (United States) ; letters ; 24 Area ; warehouse ; office ; deceased 0 1266 End of Military Service and Transition to Civilian Life Luevano was forced out of the Marine Corps when she got married and had her first child. Her husband continued his military service, so she always felt close to military life. Her most difficult experience was living with her father and two children in San Francisco while pregnant with her third child and away from her husband, who deployed in Vietnam for 14 months. She was always worried that her husband would not return. Luevano described how she was received by friends and family after her military service. Her father was proud of her accomplishments as a Marine, mother, and business owner. Luevano is grateful to God and her military training for her success. married ; Fallbrook (Calif.) ; Las Vegas (Nev.) ; apartment ; pregnant ; child ; daughter ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; San Francisco (Calif.) ; Vietnam ; husband ; family ; community ; barracks ; business ; Marine Corps ; gunnery sergeant ; gunny ; California (United States) 0 1739 Civilian Education and Work Experience Luevano used her G.I. Bill to graduate from CSU San Bernardino, and her husband graduated from the same university while serving in the Marine Corps. Luevano used her degree to find work as a rehab counselor. She eventually bought the company that she worked for and became financially successful. Later in life, Luevano and her husband sold their real estate and became missionaries in the Philippines for three years. They loved the Philippines but returned back to the U.S. when her husband’s health declined. husband ; college ; G.I. Bill ; Marine Corps ; California State University San Bernardino ; rehab counselor ; Palm Desert (Calif.) ; Indio (Calif.) ; Palm Springs (Calif.) ; real estate ; Philippines ; missionaries ; faith ; Vietnam 0 1956 Military Friendships and the Veteran Community The Luevanos maintained some military friendships. Her husband’s close friend, who was a Vietnam War veteran, recently committed suicide. Luevano says her husband stayed connected with his friends, but she was too busy with other responsibilities. Luevano is not a member of any veterans' organizations, but she is recognized by her church on Veterans Day. Marine Corps ; Vietnam ; suicide ; mental issues ; Las Vegas (Nev.) ; church ; Veterans Day ; Navy ; Army 0 2108 How Military Service Shaped Luevano's Life and Worldview Luevano says that military service disciplined her and taught her to finish any task that she started. She always worked hard to achieve her goals and support her family. Luevano also spoke about her husband who recently passed away, her grief, and how his passing has shaped her life today. Marine Corps ; AWOL ; Camp Lejeune (N.C.) ; training ; college ; waitress ; Navy ; school ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Starbucks 0 2323 Message for Future Generations Luevano wants future generations to know that they must join the military with good intentions, because the Marine Corps will not be an “escape hatch.” Military service requires discipline and commitment. She shared some experiences she has had mentoring children, including a neighbor and a young girl from her church. Luevano notes that some young people feel academically entitled to excellent grades that they do not merit. She wants to see young people work hard and be successful. apartment ; church ; boy ; girl ; military ; Marine Corps ; college ; Palomar College (Calif.) ; United States ; volunteer 0 2595 Life Lessons from Military Service Luevano reflects on war movies and how servicemembers sacrifice their lives for a cause. She thinks many young people do not know the cost of freedom and what veterans have sacrificed. Luevano says, “And people lay their lives down for what they believe in in order to keep that to the next generation.” Veterans Day ; movie ; Band of Brothers ; World War I ; World War II ; Vietnam ; Vice President ; JD Vance ; Camp Pendleton 0 2824 Experience with the Veterans History Project Luevano connected with the Veterans History Project at CSUSM through a friend who invited her to an event. North San Diego County ; Vista (Calif.) 0 Oral history Dora Luevano served as a corporal in the U.S. Marine Corps. She was stationed at Camp Pendleton during the Vietnam War. Luevano worked in a warehouse and office, processing deceased servicemembers, collecting their personal effects, and writing letters to their family and loved ones. Luevano described her strict upbringing, immigration to the U.S. as a child from El Salvador, and decision to enlist in the Marine Corps. Luevano was forced out of military service for getting married and having a child, and she reflected on the harsh expectations and regulations that affected women in military service. She spoke about her 60-year marriage to her husband, whom she met in the Marine Corps, and their life together after military service. Luevano described how her civilian life was shaped by her upbringing, religion, military service, education, professional career, business ownership, and husband’s recent passing. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:02.544 --> 00:00:33.195 My name is Jason Beyer, and I'm a graduate of CSUSM (California State University San Marcos). Today is Thursday, November 6th, 2025, and we're conducting this interview in Vista, California with veteran Dora Luevano. Also present is photographer Vyanh Vo. This oral history will help preserve the lived experiences of United States military veterans. Please state your full name. 00:00:33.195 --> 00:00:37.353 Dora Lydia Luevano. 00:00:37.353 --> 00:00:39.064 Your branch of service. 00:00:39.064 --> 00:00:41.265 United States Marine Corps. 00:00:41.265 --> 00:00:43.725 The highest rank that you attained. 00:00:43.725 --> 00:00:47.265 Ah, I hate to say this. Corporal (laughs). 00:00:47.265 --> 00:00:52.125 Please state the war that was happening during your time in service. 00:00:52.125 --> 00:00:54.524 Vietnam. 00:00:54.524 --> 00:01:01.645 Alright, so now we're gonna begin with the introduction portion of the interview. Where were you born? 00:01:01.645 --> 00:01:23.155 I was born in San Salvador, Central America. I came to the United States when I was nine years old. My dad worked for the shipyards in San Francisco, and he arranged it legally for me to come and live here and go to school here. 00:01:23.155 --> 00:01:29.004 What was life like for you when you were in El Salvador? 00:01:29.004 --> 00:03:20.405 Oh, goodness. I was extremely poor. I was raised by my grandmother, and we lived in a section of the country that was—they call 'em "el mesón"—mesones—which is like government housing only nothing like a government—they're mud huts and with a little barbecue pit on the outside for her to cook. A lot of times we didn't have any money for food. That's why my father decided to come to the United States was to take care of me. And so it was—I never went back to El Salvador. I made my life here and I became a US citizen. And I am a patriot through and through. I absolutely love, love the United States. It's been so good to me. It's been good to my whole family. I have six children—not six children—I have three daughters, six grandkids. And they know nothing what poverty is. They're very successful. They have careers. They have degrees. Everything that my husband and I wanted for them, they have become. They're awesome children, daughters. And that wouldn't have happened if I would've lived in El Salvador. You know, I had a sister and I'm pretty sure she's dead by now in El Salvador. So—I could go on, but then it's depressing. Let's go to the good stuff (laughs). 00:03:20.405 --> 00:03:27.145 What was it a hard transition for you when you were in El Salvador and then you came to the United States? Was it a really hard transition for you? 00:03:27.145 --> 00:04:31.004 It was, because I left my grandmother behind, and I came to live alone with my dad who had married. And I didn't know—I met my dad for the first time when I came here when I was nine, 'cause he left me when I was one or two years old. And so I—it was difficult. So my dad sent for my grandmother and brought her over so that she could help to continue to raise me. And I lived in San Francisco all my life. So, San Francisco is divided into sections—my dad did well financially, so he had a nice home. But I had to learn how to be his daughter, because I didn't know him, and my dad was extremely strict, which is why eventually I joined the Marine Corps (laughs) because too much strictness. I graduated from high school and it was—I just wanted to fly. 00:04:31.004 --> 00:04:37.000 What were you doing before you joined the Marine Corps? Like, did you have a job in school or— 00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:38.264 —Yeah— 00:04:38.264 --> 00:04:41.000 —were you—was it family life or what was your job like in school—high school? 00:04:41.000 --> 00:07:19.144 When I finished high school, my father said that he would pay for me to go to college. He would give me a hundred dollars. A hundred dollars don't pay no tuition. So I decided I would look for a job. So I worked in a jewelry store. I worked as—in the beginning of computers where they used to have cards with punch holes in them—and I did that. But I couldn't find my place in life. I couldn't—I didn't have a mother, and my grandmother was too old. So I didn't know what to do with myself. So my last job was for Pacific Bell (Pacific Bell Telephone Company) as a long distance operator. They hired me and I worked the night shift, and I still was not happy. I kept thinking, I know I can do better than this. So one day I was coming down Market Street, getting off my shift and going home. And I saw the sign that says, "Join the Marines and see the world." So I thought, I'm gonna do that. So I went the next day, and I said, "I wanna join the Marine Corps." And I said, how soon can I leave? (Luevano laughs.) And they laughed and they said, "Well, as soon as you get your papers for permission from—'cause I was 18—not quite 18, but they wanted the signature from my father. So I gave the form to my dad to sign it, and my father took it and tore it up and said, "I will never approve of this." So I said, "Okay." So I went back to the recruiter and I said, "You know, I am sorry, my dad feels this way. Can I have another form?" (Luevano laughs.) And he goes, "Do you have another guardian?" I said, "My grandma." And I had taught my grandmother how to write, because my grandmother was totally illiterate. She didn't know how to write in those days. She came from the 1800s. So she didn't—she died when she was 101. So my grandmother—I explained to her my desire, and I wanna join the military. And my grandmother said, "Whatever makes you happy, mija." So she's—I held her hand while she wrote her name on the form. I took it over there, and within a month I was gone. And I never looked back. It was the most awesome experience for me. I loved bootcamp! (Luevano laughs.) 00:07:19.144 --> 00:07:28.884 So let's talk about that—your early military experience. What do you remember about your first days in the military in bootcamp? 00:07:28.884 --> 00:11:02.595 In bootcamp. Well, I saw a lot of them go AWOL (Absent Without Leave). I would wake up in the morning at four—whatever the bugler he—I can't remember what hour, but it was extremely—it was still dark outside the—and Reveille would start—and I would look to my right or my left sometimes, and the bunk would be empty. And they had told us when we joined, when we went to bootcamp, that a lot of people try to go AWOL. And there was alligators. This is South Carolina, but they'd try to scare me. It didn't scare me—no. I used to love it. I loved the Marine Corps. One time I was marching, I—you know there was—we were out in the field and marching, and I kept smiling the whole time. And the D.I. (drill instructor) got mad at me and said, "Are you making fun of me?" I said, "No, sir. I love this. You know, I love the marching." (Luevano laughs.) I didn't know military talk or whatever. So he made me—I made him so mad that he sent me to the CO (Commanding Officer). And I went before the CO. And he said, "I hear you're always smiling. Why is that? Are you making fun of the military?" I said, "Ma'am, I'm smiling because I'm so happy to be here." She couldn't believe it. She told me, "Get outta here." And I went back and I finished. I was determined that I had found my niche. A lot of them went AWOL. Even when we graduated—a lot of them—I remember it was so hot. South Carolina was very hot. And, I saw a lot of—some of the girls fainted. I could hear them "plop, plop, plop," you know? And I thought, I will never faint. I'm going to get my wings or whatever, you know. I'm gonna officially be in. And I did. I remember when she put my insignia on the—and I was so happy that I had made something of myself when I had no mom, literally no dad, and a old grandma who said, "Do whatever makes you happy." And, I just, I fit. I found out later that my dad had joined the military when he was a young man in San Salvador. So I figured I'd carry the genes in my veins that made me wanna love it. And if the rules, the regulations, and the laws that weren't in effect then, I would've reenlisted. I was doing really good. I was already a corporal and I—but in those days, if you got married and you had a baby, you had to get out. So they forced me out, you know, out of the military. And I often thought I had to go back and knock on the door and say, "I hear your laws have changed. Can I join?" (Luevano laughs.) I called them. I told them I wanted to work as a counselor, and they told me I was too old. So it's a pleasure and honor to tell somebody my life, you know? 'Cause I am getting a little old—(Luevano laughs)—as you can tell. But I don't feel old. I can still do a couple of miles every day, you know. So. 00:11:02.595 --> 00:11:06.725 What was your first assignment after basic training? Where did you go after basic training? 00:11:06.725 --> 00:13:43.683 They sent me to Camp Pendleton in the 24 Area. And it's still there. I went and looked through the window one day. Everything's still the same. They put me to work there in the office. And I processed all the deceased that were the young men that were killed in the war. I did the letters to the parents, to the boyfriends, or whatever the letter needed to go. It was my responsibility along with two other Marines—(unintelligible) Marines—that we handle all that. And we would go in the warehouse and look at the personal effects of all these young men. We would go through them and make sure that everything was well. That the parent or the wife wasn't gonna receive something that was be embarrassing to the soldier. So we would—and make sure that their—the person of their wedding bands and their—whatever they had on them when they were killed—that it would be properly processed so that the parents would not have further grief because of something they received. Yeah. So it was us who were responsible for that. And I did that for the two years that I worked there. And that's—well my husband was coming back from Vietnam. He wasn't my husband then. He was nothing. He was just a young man that was coming to work in the warehouse. He had just come back from Vietnam, and that's where he was assigned. And I looked at him and I thought, what a handsome man. And there's a question in your questionnaire that says, "Did you make any lasting relationships out of your time in the service?" And he was lasting. We lasted 60 years together. He went on to stay in the Marine Corps. He was in for 16 years. So I felt like I was still part of that, because wherever he got orders—we got orders to go to Camp Lejeune—of course, I went with him. So his life—I lived my life through him, and he passed away last year. (Luevano's voice becomes shaky.) My best friend is the army of heaven now. (Luevano pauses and her eyes tear up.) 00:13:43.683 --> 00:13:58.000 Do you recall—like, backing up to your time in bootcamp—do you recall any of your instructors? Or, while you were at Camp Pendleton, do you recall any leaders who had a lasting impact on you? 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:48.565 I loved the instructor in bootcamp. His name is Sergeant Ortiz. Yeah. He had big front teeth. And, I loved marching. And even after we got out, my husband would line up my daughters—our three daughters—and we'd go marching (laughs). And that's stupid. But when you join the military, it's almost like it becomes a part of your life, you know? So Sergeant Ortiz was someone I never forgot. And then there was a sergeant—sergeant—he was a lieutenant—Lieutenant Bowling—at the 24 area. He was very fair, and he was easy and very nice to work with. Yeah, I never forgot his name. Lieutenant Bowling. 00:14:48.565 --> 00:14:54.250 What—so you said you reached the rank of corporal before you got out— 00:14:54.250 --> 00:14:55.000 —Yeah. 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:59.225 Was that a big milestone for you? 00:14:59.225 --> 00:15:14.115 For me it was because I knew I was gonna be getting out. And I felt like with each rank that I was proving to myself—yes, you are good at this. You know? 00:15:14.115 --> 00:15:26.424 What part of military life came naturally or felt easiest for you? 00:15:26.424 --> 00:16:14.784 (Luevano pauses for thought.) Taking orders, I guess, because my father was so totalitarian and strict in his mannerism. He never abused me or anything, he just was very cold and he was always trying to make a living so hard. He worked in—the shipyards is hard work. I understand now that he did love me, you know. But he was full of rules and regulations. Never any love, just rules and regulations. And I think it prepared me for the Marine Corps because when they gave me orders, I received them. I took 'em. I didn't see no reason why I shouldn't do that, you know. Because they know what's best. And so that would answer that, I think. (Luevano chuckles.) 00:16:14.784 --> 00:16:25.000 How did you interact with others while stationed stateside? Like either at Camp Pendleton or previous bootcamp. Like how were you—how was your interactions? What were they like? 00:16:25.000 --> 00:17:05.204 I loved it. I love to dance. My grandson yesterday—he was in the Navy—a traitor, he joined the Navy! But he sent me an oldie-but-goodie song on my phone yesterday. And he said, "This is for your birthday, grandma. Your birthday is coming up." And he said—he doesn't let me get depressed because he says, "The Marines don't get depressed." So, yeah—but what was the question? I forgot. 00:17:05.204 --> 00:17:11.164 It was asking how—what were your interactions like when you were at Camp Pendleton? 00:17:11.164 --> 00:18:57.144 Oh! I got along with everyone. I used to love (laughs)—I loved the male Marines, because they had cars and they would let me—and I was—I guess I was kind of cute when I was young (smiles), so a lot of them wanted to get married. One said, "I'll take you to New York. My parents live in New York, let's—" you know. And I said, "I don't wanna get married. I just wanna be where I'm at, you know." But in those days we were a little bit more strict with our morals. So it was always—it was for the—just being a way to laugh. And I would make friends with a cook at the mess hall. And we had a young Marine—a female marine—who discovered she had cancer. And she—they sent her home to die. And there was another—they used to call me "Boot." The women Marines would call me "Boot." And I loved the mess hall. I loved their food (laughs). So they would always ask me, "Bring me something, Boot." And after a while I got tired of doing that. But I made a lot of friends. I love people. And that's why I did very well in my professional career later on in life, because I sincerely love and care for people, you know? And so I never left with anybody being angry with me, or I just assumed you're a human being. You make mistakes like everybody else does, you know? 00:18:57.144 --> 00:19:04.000 So now we're getting on to wartime. I know you said you never deployed and you never went to Vietnam— 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:05.265 —No— 00:19:05.265 --> 00:19:33.404 —But you served in the Marine Corps while the conflict in Vietnam was happening. You said that your role in the Marine Corps was, as service members that had passed away from the war were coming back to California and like in caskets, your role was to make sure that they were received by their family members with nothing that would upset the family. Did that take a toll on you over the long run? 00:19:33.404 --> 00:20:48.904 I think it did, because their personal effects that came in the box represented who that individual was. And by the things that they own—and it also told me how old they were. They were just kids. Now when I look back, they were just 18-year-old boys—or 19, 20—and they were gone, you know? And so I would read their letters to their wives—which we were required to do that—to go through their stuff and make sure that the wife didn't get a letter from a girlfriend somewhere else. So we would read their letters and stuff. And so it is almost like I was reading the life of each individual soldier that came through that office. When I first got stationed there, at the 24 Area, we worked in a huge warehouse. And the warehouse was empty when I started. And by the time I left, within the two years, that warehouse was full to the top with boxes. 00:20:48.904 --> 00:20:50.000 Of deceased? 00:20:50.000 --> 00:21:06.983 (Luevano nods affirmatively.) Deceased. Mm-hmm. Yeah. They hadn't yet caught up to ship them to their parents—they were behind. And so the warehouse was packed with boxes. Yeah. 00:21:06.983 --> 00:21:19.664 So let's begin to talk about your transition out of service. Do you remember the day your service ended? And please describe what that was like. 00:21:19.664 --> 00:23:17.644 You know, I don't remember it at all because I was newly married. I was newly married and we had just found our first apartment in Fallbrook. And we found an apartment—a duplex, they were called then. And I moved in there. My husband and I got married in Las Vegas, and we moved to Fallbrook 'cause it was the cheapest place to live. And so I don't remember anything but the fact that I was starting another new life, you know? Which is being—living in an apartment. And then I found out I was pregnant. And I had my first child while we were living in Fallbrook. My daughters were all born—except for the last one—were born in Camp Pendleton at the hospital. My last one was born in San Francisco, 'cause my husband was in Vietnam again, and I was by myself. And so I—that was extremely hard for me. To be pregnant with two other children and my husband being gone. And he drove me to San Francisco at my father's house, and I stayed there and I cried and cried because it was too hard. I felt I couldn't raise my daughters by myself. He was gonna be gone 14 months, and didn't know if he would've come back, you know? So those were difficult years. That's why when people say to me, "Thank you for your service," I receive it because I felt I deserve that. (Luevano's voice gets shaky.) You know, so— 00:23:17.644 --> 00:23:31.000 It's interesting hearing your story as a corporal in the Marine Corps and then the wife's perspective after you got out while your husband was on his second deployment in Vietnam. 00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:32.000 Yeah. 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:34.000 And you had three kids at that time, you said? 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:34.539 Yeah. 00:23:34.539 --> 00:23:37.775 And how long was he deployed for? 00:23:37.775 --> 00:23:39.733 14 months. 00:23:39.733 --> 00:23:42.934 And so you just stayed in San Francisco that whole time? 00:23:42.934 --> 00:23:49.644 The last one, yes, I stayed there. The other two, where was I? 00:23:49.644 --> 00:23:49.962 Camp Pendleton? 00:23:49.962 --> 00:24:25.825 Oh! I stayed with one of his best friends. His wife was also pregnant. And so, I stayed there until I had went into labor, you know? And then the other one—uh, Maria, where was she? Oh, she was born in the hospital in Camp Pendleton. I get my days a little bit mixed up with that, 'cause the three of them are a year apart. He would come home and get me pregnant and then he'd leave. But he told me he planned it that way. (Luevano chuckles.) 00:24:25.825 --> 00:24:35.545 How were you received by your family or your community after you got out? Like, was your dad there to receive you and celebrate with you after getting out? 00:24:35.545 --> 00:27:10.505 My dad regretted it, because he saw me do everything to be good as a Marine. And he was proud of me. He became proud of me. And one day I was—toward the end of my tour—I was at the barracks. And they told me I had a visitor, and it was my dad. And my dad brought me a gift. To this day, I can't figure out what made him do that. He brought me a sewing machine (laughs). And he said, "In case you have to sew your uniforms, I brought you a sewing machine." And he was proud of me that I was able to be a mom, a Marine, and also work—and eventually work and own a business, you know? The Lord—God has been very good to me. I have—at my age have accomplished a lot more than people realize. I've been everywhere. I've done quite a number of things. And I attribute that, first, to God for him being so faithful to me. And second, to the Marine Corps. I think they made me not be a quitter. Their training helped me a lot, you know? Even though Sergeant Ortiz might have thought he wasn't teaching me much by marching, I can still pivot (laughs). So he taught me a lot by the discipline. And when he would yell at me—and he would, 'cause they all—seemed like they all know how to yell and scream at my ear. "Did you hear what I said, Boot?" You know (Luevano chuckles). But they taught me a lot. Taught me things that I want my grandkids to do in their lives. To handle life that way as well. And they've pretty much done that. 'Cause my grandkids have done well, you know? All of them. They've done very well. You know, it takes discipline to do that. I said, "I never wanna see you—visit you in prison. I wanna go to your graduation." And they've done that. They've done— 00:27:10.505 --> 00:27:16.825 Was it—what was it like adjusting back to civilian life for you? Was it a hard transition? 00:27:16.825 --> 00:28:59.625 No, because then my husband was still in the military. He was still a Marine. So I'd never really made that transition. The transition that was hard is when he got out. Because he was a gunny (gunnery sergeant), and now he was—he got a job at General Dynamics sweeping the floors. And he kept his uniform in the closet in case he changed his mind and wanted to go back in. But he had to learn how to mop the floor as good as when he was a gunnery sergeant. He was a good marine. And but it was difficult. That transition, I think, was the hardest for the both of us, because he got out and by the time we reached California we only had $50 between us. And we went to live temporarily with his mom and dad while he figured out, "Where do I find a job?" 'Cause he joined when he was a kid too. He was 18 years old, I think, when he joined the Marine Corps. So he was just a young man. And now he was an older man and had family to support and no assistance from anyone. His parents were not very helpful. And it was hard. Even now, I didn't realize how hard that was, but it was extremely difficult for the two of us to adjust to. Because there was nobody there to cheer you on. Nobody there to help you, you know? And I'm sure they don't do that anymore. They have a lot more to offer the young Marines when they get out. 00:28:59.625 --> 00:29:08.234 Did you go receive a higher education after you got out? Or did you go straight into the workforce? Or did you—were you— 00:29:08.234 --> 00:32:36.744 When my husband—while still in the Marine Corps—he enrolled in a program that the Marine Corps allowed him to go to college, and they would pay for it. And as long as he kept a B average. So while he was there, I decided, well, if he's gonna go to college, I am too. So I got my GI Bill. He was still in the Marine Corps, but I was out so I used my GI Bill to go back, and I graduated from Cal State San Bernardino (California State University San Bernardino). Both of us graduated at the same time. And then he went back into the service because he was still in the service. He just didn't wear a uniform. But, we both got our degrees, and it really—the degree that I received—helped me a lot because it got me to the next step, which is to work. I got a degree in liberal arts and minor in psychology. And so I was able to work as a rehab counselor. And if I didn't have a degree, I wouldn't have gotten that job. Eventually I bought that company, and I changed it from Genesis to New Beginnings. In my office—I had three offices—in Palm Desert, Indio, and Palm Springs. And I loved it. My husband eventually, by that time we were out of the Marine Corps—out of any associations with them at all—just being civilians, you know. And then after that, I worked—sold real estate, and then finally I became a—my husband and I became missionaries, and we went to live in the Philippines. And we lived there for three years, but we had been visiting the Philippines for eight years before that. And we sold everything. And we sold our—we had horses. We had financially done well, But we laid it down because our commitment was to God first and then our own lives. And it was lovely. It was as hard as the Marine Corps. It was hard as bootcamp. And but my faith just said it. This is what I like to do. And my husband loved it. He absolutely—I guess he thought he was in Vietnam again, because Philippines is all jungle. And so I guess it was no difference between that and him being in Vietnam. And he loved it. You know, I have pictures of him going across a river. Just until eventually he got sick—he started getting, not feeling well. And eventually we came back to the States. And then I just saw his life slowly deteriorate. His health—it's been a good life. 00:32:36.744 --> 00:32:43.744 Did you maintain any of your friendships from the time you were in service after you got out of service? 00:32:43.744 --> 00:32:44.785 Did we, what? 00:32:44.785 --> 00:32:47.025 Did you maintain any of the friendships you made? 00:32:47.025 --> 00:34:18.355 We had one. His name was Lieutenant Daniel Boone. That was his real name. And my husband and him were high school buddies. And when Gus joined the Marine Corps, Danny joined the Marine Corps as well and became a lieutenant. Unfortunately, about four years ago, he committed suicide. He started having a lot of mental issues. He was in the Marine Corps in Vietnam as well. So he became depressed. And my husband—I was afraid that that idea that his best friend was now dead would give him ideas. But he said he was too chicken to take his life. So but we had another friend, Larry Talend, and he moved to Las Vegas in that area, and that's why we got married over there. And he was my husband's best man. And we kept those friendships. And Gus used to love—we went—some of them, he went to look 'em up and touch base with them once, but then people get busy with their lives. And I never did. I was too busy being all those other roles that I was playing. So no, that was about it. Yeah. 00:34:18.355 --> 00:34:25.684 Have you joined any veteran organizations or stayed involved in the veteran community? 00:34:25.684 --> 00:35:08.664 Only through church. On Veteran's Day or whatever, they make me stand up (laughs). And I never wanna stand up because I always—I'm embarrassed that I'm—that an old lady—that they would see me as a Marine. But inside I am. I think Marines are gutsy. I think that they're a different type of breed than your regular—no offense if you're in the Navy or Army or whatever—but Marine Corps's different. Yeah. 00:35:08.664 --> 00:35:17.664 So let's move on to reflections. How has your military service shaped who you are today? 00:35:17.664 --> 00:38:43.394 Oh, goodness. I could shout and yell at that question because absolutely! Next to my faith in God, the Marine Corps did what my dad was trying to instill in me without the anger, you know? It disciplined me. It—too many people quit when it gets tough. They either commit suicide or they take the easy way out. And I never did. And I know it was because the Marine Corps taught me that. When I said, "I'm not going AWOL. I'm going to make it through the ceremony." And when they sent me to Camp Lejeune for some further training, I went. And I finished—I was a good—I did what I was supposed to do. And so the Marine Corps shaped me that when I went to college and I was working as a waitress at the same time that I'm going to college to make extra money to raise my family. And I finished it. It taught me to start and finish. And I say that to my grandkids. He couldn't find—my grandson—he was unemployed for almost a year. And I said, "Jeremiah, don't you quit. We don't quit." And that, "You were in the Navy. That's your problem, but you need to finish what you start." And he did. He's in college, but he went back to school. (A dog is whimpering and can be heard in the background.) He got a job. He's computer literate. I mean—he's an awesome—Jeremiah's an awesome kid. But it's that principle. Too many young people, when the going gets tough, they want somebody to give them an A when they haven't earned an A, you know? And I'm not saying everyone's like that, but I believe that (Luevano looks down and speaks to her dog)—no Gunny. He was—don't start, don't throw it (Luevano laughs). Thank you. (Luevano looks back up. The dog stops whimpering.) He wants attention. So it's that—it's that thing. Even now I feel like quitting because now I'm alone and the love of my life is gone. I'll see him again. But sometimes I think, why don't I just go home? Why don't I just die? When I sit here by myself, instead of him being there saying, "Let's go for a drive, honey." You know what his concept of going for a drive was? Go to Camp Pendleton (laughs). He would drive to Camp Pendleton. We used to go to the Camp Pendleton at least once a week to go shopping. We just walk around and go to Starbucks there and have a cup of coffee. And he would park in the handicap section, and he would watch—One day he got mad 'cause the grounds by one of the office buildings was full of weeds. (Dog whimpering starts again, louder.) And he said, "I wish they would let me go in there and trim all those weeds. You know, it doesn't look good for the Marine Corps to have weeds like that." But it affected us. And I really believe that when I get to heaven, I'm gonna wear a uniform (laughs). And I wanna ride a horse (laughs). 00:38:43.394 --> 00:38:54.945 What message would you want to leave for future generations who may watch or hear this interview? 00:38:54.945 --> 00:41:36.594 (Dog barks.) Excuse me. Gunny! Here. (Luevano reaches down, takes a ball from the dog, and puts the ball on the table next to her.) No. Yesterday I had a young man that is getting ready to move out of this apartment. They're, I think, buying a home or they're moving out of the area. He's 12 years old. And I've made an impression on him in some way because he comes to visit. He's as big as you are. He's tall! Young boy. He's got the sweetest heart. And he was telling me he was moving and that he was sorry he wasn't gonna be able to come and see me as often. And I told him, it's perfectly okay. But that I gave him basically what I'm telling you right now, "You're gonna do well in life, son. You're gonna do well because you have such a kind heart." But he wants to lift weights 'cause he said, "I need to lose some weight." I said, "Just be disciplined. Just start something and finish it. You know?" And it's the same thing I told my grandkid. Just finish it. Start something and finish it unless you have something good to replace it with. So it—I think for the next generation, for the way that—I seem to attract them, I guess, 'cause I look like a sweet grandma or something (laughs). I like to—they are so sweet! And I love imparting something of what I know to them. There was a young girl that had run away from home. She was at church and she was thinking of joining the military. I said, "You do that, but you go in with the right motives. If you go into the service with the wrong motive as an escape hatch, it won't work 'cause Marine Corps will not be escape hatch for you in a good way. You can make it a good thing by having the right motives and the right frame of mind. And to be disciplined enough that when it's going gets tough, you get going and you finish it. You know?" And she decided to go back home and not join the military, which I was glad 'cause she wasn't military material. But she needed to go home and make things right with her parents. So I don't know if all that is what you want. 00:41:36.594 --> 00:41:43.105 What do you wish more people understood about veterans? 00:41:43.105 --> 00:43:15.704 You know, there was a—when I took my economics class in college, there's a thing—this is—there's no such thing as free lunch. And I think for a lot of them, they think it's free lunch. I have a very good friend. She's a professor and she teaches at Palomar College. And she was telling me that a lot of her students, when they don't work for it. And they demand an A, but yet they don't show up for class and they don't do their homework. And it scares me for the United States. I love this country. And, with that kinda attitude, I wouldn't want them in my foxhole because they don't wanna work. You know? And I'm not saying all of them, because that's all inclusive. It's not all like that. There's still a lot of people out there that, like you, are being successful in your life with your family, with the things that you volunteer for. You know? So I think that's—if I could impart that to them, finish your homework. You know, that old thing? (Luevano laughs.) "Mommy, I finish my homework." "Did you finish your homework?" "I don't think so." "Go back and finish your homework." 00:43:15.704 --> 00:43:23.554 If you were to reflect on the journey of your service, what themes or life lessons emerge? 00:43:23.554 --> 00:43:24.704 Tell me again. 00:43:24.704 --> 00:43:32.954 If you were to reflect on your journey and your time in the Marine Corps, what themes or life lessons emerge? 00:43:32.954 --> 00:43:33.875 What themes? 00:43:33.875 --> 00:43:50.000 Yeah. Or life lessons. 00:43:50.000 --> 00:47:04.385 You know, I love watching war movies. My husband and I loved when there's Veterans Day and they show around the clock war movies, and we would watch 'em all. And the thing that I liked the best is when they're marching—like the Band of Brothers movies. You know, the series of them? We watch those movies a number of times. And the one thing I saw in the Band of Brothers is that, as they're going through a particular area that's jungle or whatever, and they're on their way to a spot where they will see maybe the end of life or they're gonna see a war episode in their lives that is scary. They're running through the jungle. They're running—they're gonna go and die. And yet they're running to it. They, you know what I mean? They're running to it. They're not afraid of it. They know they have to. Maybe they're gonna give their lives in that destination where they're going, but they're doing it because there's a reason why they're doing it. And it's for our country. It's for the people. It's for what we will stand for. And a lot of young people don't know the—that's the question you asked. They don't know that freedom costs. They have no idea. They don't know what World War I, II is or Vietnam. And they don't even know where Vietnam is. And they don't know that we didn't acquire all of this. My husband used to call it "the Big PX." They don't know that all that we have, people lay their lives for it. You see them—they're without legs or they were—a bomb went off where they were at and they lost their limbs. And you just switch the channel. Like, and they did it for you and I, you know? And people lay their lives down for what they believe in in order to keep that to the next generation. And I wanna leave a legacy to my grandchildren. "My grandmother was a tough marine," they say. I wanna leave that for them because that's what life requires of us, is to put our boots on and run that trail. Or I saw a picture of Vice President Vance (JD Vance) marching with the Marines. I wanted to cut it out and put it in a frame, because he's running with all the Marines up this trail. And Camp Pendleton is known for those hills. And my husband used to say, "See those hills, honey? I ran those hills." Every time we go by there, he would tell me the same thing. I said, "Honey, how many times do you have to tell me you ran those hills." But that's what life is. Isn't it a race to finish? To finish well? Yeah. 00:47:04.385 --> 00:47:11.715 How did you become connected with the North San Diego County community, like here in Vista? 00:47:11.715 --> 00:47:51.295 Through a friend. You and I have a mutual friend that works at the college. And she invited me last year, and I literally lit up when I saw what it was. 'Cause she didn't—she didn't fully understand what it was that we were all all gonna be doing. And so when I went to the event last year, that's the first I ever heard of it, you know? And it thrilled my heart. It was like water to a dying flower, you know? So that's how I knew about it. Otherwise I wouldn't have known. 00:47:51.295 --> 00:47:56.885 Thank you again for sharing your story. It's an honor to help preserve it. 00:47:56.885 --> 00:47:59.000 It's an honor for me to share it. Yeah. 00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:00.000 Thank you. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LuevanoDora_BeyerJason_2025-11-6.xml LuevanoDora_BeyerJason_2025-11-6.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Luevano, Dora. Interview November 6th, 2025 Description An account of the resource Dora Luevano served as a corporal in the U.S. Marine Corps. She was stationed at Camp Pendleton during the Vietnam War. Luevano worked in a warehouse and office, processing deceased servicemembers, collecting their personal effects, and writing letters to their family and loved ones. Luevano described her strict upbringing, immigration to the U.S. as a child from El Salvador, and decision to enlist in the Marine Corps. Luevano was forced out of military service for getting married and having a child, and she reflected on the harsh expectations and regulations that affected women in military service. She spoke about her 60-year marriage to her husband, whom she met in the Marine Corps, and their life together after military service. Luevano described how her civilian life was shaped by her upbringing, religion, military service, education, professional career, business ownership, and husband’s recent passing. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Marine Corps Pacific Bell Telephone Company Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Camp Lejeune (N.C.) California State University, San Bernardino Palomar College Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-11-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dora Luevano Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Dora Luevano Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-102 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam San Salvador (El Salvador) El Salvador United States San Francisco (Calif.) South Carolina New York (United States) Fallbrook (Calif.) Las Vegas (Nev.) California Palm Desert (Calif.) Indio (Calif.) Palm Springs (Calif.) Philippines Vista (Calif.) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/cc6b7562e6cb1a2fc4b6d2263de282d4.pdf 1944ab4324c68acefd81e75e82c531e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Labrado, Ed. Interview transcript, November 17, 2025. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ed Labrado Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-11-17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Ed Labrado License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LabradoEd_BeyerJason_2025-11-17_transcript Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Description An account of the resource Edwin Joseph Labrado Jr. was a captain in the U.S. Army Signal Corps. He was deployed in Europe during the Vietnam War. Labrado was born and raised in Santa Barbara, where he graduated from UCSB and completed the Army's four-year ROTC program. After graduation, he was assigned to the Army Signal Corps and later deployed to Europe. In Europe, he served as a battalion signal officer for a Nike Hercules missile battalion that had nuclear warheads. Some of his other responsibilities included communications training, military funeral honors, and the inspection of firing batteries. In this oral history interview, Labrado reflected on the Cold War, the US anti-Vietnam War movement, and how Americans treat veterans after military service. Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army United States. Army—Officers United States. Army. Signal Corps Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Cold War University of California, Santa Barbara Patton, George S. (George Smith), 1885-1945 United States. Army. Army, 3rd United States. Army. Armored Division, 6th United States. Army. Reserve Officers' Training Corps Reserve Officers’ Training Corps (United States) Camp Roberts (Calif.) M1 rifle World War, 1914-1918 Korean War, 1950-1953 M14 rifle M16 rifle Fort Gordon (Ga.) Fort Monmouth (N.J.) Cryptography Missiles Fort Ord (Calif.) Funeral rites and ceremonies Noncommissioned officers Post-traumatic stress disorder Warsaw Pact (1955-1991) North Atlantic Treaty Organization Bank of America, National Association Nike Hercules missile Nuclear weapons Ramstein Air Base (Germany) Kennedy, John F., 1917-1963—Assassination Cuban Missile Crisis, 1962 United States. Army—Deserters Nuclear warfare Deterrence (Strategy) Peace Corps (U.S.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Europe Santa Barbara (Calif.) Port Hueneme (Calif.) California Ventura (Calif.) Georgia New Jersey Monterey (Calif.) Oakland (Calif.) Russia (Federation) Soviet Union Germany (East) Germany (West) Korea Vietnam Isla Vista (Calif.) France Germany United States Ukraine Nagasaki (Japan) Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ed Labrado OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LabradoEd_BeyerJason_2025-11-17_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Veteran OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Labrado, Ed. Interview November 17th, 2025. SC027-096 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran Captain U.S. Army Signal Corps Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Europe Santa Barbara (Calif.) Ed Labrado Jason Beyer Moving image LabradoEd_BeyerJason_2025-11-17_access 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/72bced0e8ce919f692fcb5724a7d099c.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and Biography Edwin Joseph Labrado Jr. was a captain in the U.S. Army Signal Corps. He was deployed in Europe during the Vietnam War and the Cold War. Labrado was born and raised in Santa Barbara, California, where he graduated from UC Santa Barbara and completed the U.S. Army's four-year ROTC program. His father served as a combat engineer in the 6th Armored Division during World War II. United States Army ; Captain ; United States Army Signal Corps ; Vietnam War ; Cold War ; Europe ; Santa Barbara (Calif.) ; UC Santa Barbara ; General George S. Patton ; Third United States Army ; The Super Sixth ; The 6th Armored Division ; Army ROTC ; Reserve Officers' Training Corps 0 163 Decision to Enlist in the U.S. Army Labrado graduated in June 1968. He was assigned to the Army Signal Corps based on his ROTC training, performance, and preferences. Army ; Reserve Officers' Training Corps ; Port Hueneme ; California ; Ventura (Calif.) ; Camp Roberts ; Santa Barbara (Calif.) ; M1 Garand ; World War I ; Korean War ; M14 ; M16 ; Signal Corps 0 348 Early Days of Military Service and Working with Computers After he was commissioned in the Signal Corps, Labrado completed a basic officer leaders course in Fort Gordon, Georgia. There he learned the tactical employment of communications equipment in the field. He then received additional training at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey and completed the Communications Officers Course. The course taught him about radios, data communication, and encryption. Labrado describes how encryption worked in the late 1960s using IBM computers. Signal Corps ; Basic Officer Leaders Course ; Fort Gordon ; Georgia ; Fort Monmouth ; New Jersey ; Communications Officers Course ; computer ; IBM ; card reader ; encryption ; missile systems ; launch codes 0 517 Assignment to Fort Ord in California and Experience with Burial Ceremonies After basic training, Labrado was assigned to a signal battalion at Fort Ord. There he supported communications training. Fort Ord was a large military establishment, and one of Labrado’s extra duties was organizing military funeral honors for servicemembers killed in action. Labrado tells a story about anti-war protesters at a military funeral in Oakland. At the cemetery, Labrado had to prevent conflict between veterans and protesters, and the protesters were kept from entering the cemetery grounds. Labrado says he respects freedom of speech but thinks it was disrespectful to protest at a burial ceremony. Fort Ord ; California ; Monterey (Calif.) ; signal battalion ; advanced training ; burial ceremony ; burial detail ; NCO ; Non-Commissioned Officer ; Oakland (Calif.) ; Vietnam War ; protest ; cemetery ; post-traumatic stress disorder ; PTSD 0 792 Hardest Adjustment to Military Life Labrado describes how difficult it was initially to adjust to military life. One’s living conditions, responsibilities, and deployment could change dramatically. These adjustments were especially difficult for those who were raising a family while in the military. Army ; Vietnam War ; living conditions ; family 0 904 Deployment to Europe Labrado begins his recollections of deployment with some background context on the Cold War in Europe. He describes how U.S. soldiers were deployed in Europe to deter a potential Soviet invasion. However, most U.S. soldiers who were deployed overseas were in Vietnam. Labrado recalls receiving information about growing anti-war sentiment in the United States, including the 1970 Bank of America burning in Isla Vista near UC Santa Barbara. Europe ; Cold War ; World War II ; Russia ; USSR ; The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics ; The Warsaw Pact ; NATO ; The North Atlantic Treaty Organization ; East Germany ; Soviet Union ; Western Germany ; Korea ; Vietnam ; University of California, Santa Barbara ; Isla Vista (Calif.) ; protest ; Bank of America 0 1195 Battalion Signal Officer in Europe In Europe, Labrado was a battalion signal officer for a Nike Hercules missile battalion that included nuclear warheads. Labrado described the political dynamics that determined why and how nuclear weapons could be deployed against the Soviet Union. battalion ; signal officer ; Nike Hercules ; missile ; nuclear war ; nuclear warhead ; Ramstein Air Base ; Western Europe ; NATO ; Germany ; Russia ; aircraft ; the JFK assassination ; Cuban Missile Crisis ; NCO 0 1420 Humorous Story in Europe Labrado tells a humorous story about when he and his soon-to-be wife, Linda, were stranded in the rain after his 1957 Volkswagen Beetle ran out of gas. They returned safely, but if he did not return to his duty station on time, he could have been labeled AWOL. France ; Germany ; 1957 Volkswagen Beetle ; AWOL ; Absent Without Leave 0 1528 Collecting Beer Glasses from German Gasthauses While deployed in Germany, Labrado would travel to inspect firing batteries. He would often stop at gasthauses for a meal. He collected about 30 beer glasses from the gasthauses. firing battery ; operations center ; Germany ; gasthaus ; glass 0 1615 End of Military Service and Transition to Civilian Life After military service, Labrado completed a master’s degree from UC Santa Barbara. His family was happy he returned, but he described the community’s feeling toward veterans as “lukewarm” at that time. He says that the Vietnam War’s unpopularity was reflected on to servicemen. Labrado thought it was awkward to serve when some citizens did not respect the military. He had a smooth transition back to civilian life, but he noticed that his non-military friends were further along in their careers. Santa Barbara ; education ; master's ; family ; Europe ; United States ; unjust war ; college ; male ; draft ; friends ; military ; career 0 1818 What More People Should Know About Veterans Labrado thinks veterans deserve greater recognition and respect, especially if they served in combat and have injuries or PTSD. Veterans’ families have also struggled with constant moving and absent family members. respect ; veteran ; serve ; combat ; post-traumatic stress disorder ; PTSD ; injuries 0 1882 Message for Future Generations Labrado wants future generations to understand that there was a real threat of nuclear war with the Soviet Union. Labrado argues that deterrence worked and prevented the Soviet Union from invading NATO countries. He thinks that the threat of nuclear war is horrific and that it would be even worse today due to advances in military technology. Russia ; threat ; nuclear war ; Europe ; Vietnam ; Western Europe ; Eastern Europe ; Europe ; NATO ; Ukraine ; Nagasaki (Japan) ; warhead ; intercontinental missile ; deterrence 0 2113 Life Lessons from Military Service In his reflections on military service, Labrado refers to President John F. Kennedy’s statement urging Americans to ask what they can do for their country. He thinks it is important for people to serve their country in some capacity. In the military, he learned how to manage and motivate people, which he believes are important skills for private sector employment. reflection ; military service ; John F. Kennedy ; Peace Corps ; military ; country ; motivate ; supervision ; skills 0 Oral history Edwin Joseph Labrado Jr. was a captain in the U.S. Army Signal Corps. He was deployed in Europe during the Vietnam War. Labrado was born and raised in Santa Barbara, where he graduated from UCSB and completed the Army's four-year ROTC program. After graduation, he was assigned to the Army Signal Corps and later deployed to Europe. In Europe, he served as a battalion signal officer for a Nike Hercules missile battalion that had nuclear warheads. Some of his other responsibilities included communications training, military funeral honors, and the inspection of firing batteries. In this oral history interview, Labrado reflected on the Cold War, the US anti-Vietnam War movement, and how Americans treat veterans after military service. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:03.345 --> 00:00:43.424 My name is Jason Beyer, and I'm a graduate of CSUSM (California State University San Marcos). Today's date is Monday, November 17, 2025. And we're conducting this interview at CSUSM in the CSUSM library, located in San Marcos, California. Today I'll be interviewing veteran Edwin Lebrado Jr. This oral history will help preserve the lived experiences of United States military veterans. Please state your name—your full name. 00:00:43.424 --> 00:00:47.314 I'm Edwin Joseph Labrado Jr. 00:00:47.314 --> 00:00:49.424 Your branch of service. 00:00:49.424 --> 00:00:51.265 The United States Army. 00:00:51.265 --> 00:00:53.524 The highest rank that you attained? 00:00:53.524 --> 00:00:57.905 I was captain in the Army's Signal Corps (United States Army Signal Corps). 00:00:57.905 --> 00:01:02.674 And then please state the war or conflict that was happening during your time in service. 00:01:02.674 --> 00:01:10.314 Well, actually there was several. One was the Vietnam War was going on, and also the Cold War in Europe as well. 00:01:10.314 --> 00:01:16.885 Okay. So now we're gonna begin with introductions. Where were you born and raised? 00:01:16.885 --> 00:01:26.795 I was born in Santa Barbara, California, and I went to school there—elementary school, high school, and I went to UC Santa Barbara. 00:01:26.795 --> 00:01:30.635 What was life like for you growing up in Santa Barbara? 00:01:30.635 --> 00:01:43.944 Well, I really enjoyed it. It's a beautiful area. It's right by the coast, and I thought I had a great childhood there. 00:01:43.944 --> 00:01:48.194 Did anyone in your family ever serve in the military before you? 00:01:48.194 --> 00:02:14.264 Yeah, my dad did. My dad served with Patton's Third Army (General George S. Patton ; Third United States Army), and he was in what they call the "Super Sixth," the 6th Armored Division. And he participated in the invasion of Europe all the way through the end of the war. And he was a combat engineer. 00:02:14.264 --> 00:02:20.224 What were you doing before you joined the service? Did you hold any jobs or were you attending school? 00:02:20.224 --> 00:02:43.705 Well, like I said, I went to the University of California, Santa Barbara, and basically I was working on my bachelor's there, and that was my prior experience—prior to entering the Army. I was in the Army's ROTC program (Reserve Officers' Training Corps), and there I participated in their four year program. 00:02:43.705 --> 00:02:51.275 What led to your decision to serve? Were you drafted or did you enlist or were you commissioned as an officer? 00:02:51.275 --> 00:04:22.425 Well, as I mentioned, I was part of the reserve officers' training program there. So after the four years, you are commissioned in the Army. There was approximately—when I started—around 200 cadets that first started out, and about a hundred of us graduated in June of 1968. And our program, again, was a four year program. And we were trained essentially as infantry. We went to classes, and we also trained—like Port Hueneme—on some of the weekends. Port Hueneme is a naval facility near Ventura (California). And then we also trained at Camp Roberts, which is just up the coast from Santa Barbara. And we would train—in those days we used an M1 rifle, which is the old rifle—actually it was called a Garand. It was used in World War I in the Korean War. And so we got to use that initially, and then gradually we then used the M14 and then the M16, And then we would go to Camp Roberts some weekends where we would learn more about, you know, basic tactics, map reading and things like that to supplement our classwork, which was usually regarding military law, tactics, and history types of programs. 00:04:22.425 --> 00:04:28.084 Why did you choose the specific branch that you joined, that you served in? 00:04:28.084 --> 00:05:48.644 Well, I was in the Signal Corps. And the way the Army works—which is probably like the other services—they more or less can request certain areas or branches, and that's real important because that branch basically is your job during your service in the military. And in our program, the ROTC program, you are ranked for the entire nation for all the colleges that are graduating their officers. And you're ranked, and based on that ranking they give you priority in terms of your selections—you usually get three selections. And I was fortunate enough to get one of my three, which was the Signal Corps. But the Army is a big organization—probably one of the largest—and so we have a lot of branches. We have like 17 branches. We normally have like the ones you would think of—the infantry, armor and artillery—but we have the chemical corps, the ordinance corps, the veterinarian corps. We have all these different corps. So once you're selected, actually, for a particular branch, then that becomes the branch that you will usually remain in for the balance of your service. 00:05:48.644 --> 00:06:01.074 So we're moving on to your early days of your military experience. What kind of training or schooling did you complete while you were in the early days of service? 00:06:01.074 --> 00:07:43.285 Well, once you're commissioned—let's say in the Signal Corps, in my case—then you have to go to what they call a basic officers leadership course (Basic Officer Leaders Course). And there you learn your job, and it's usually a couple—two months, usually eight weeks—and each branch, you know, has different requirements. And in my case, the Signal Corps, the basic course was in Fort Gordon, Georgia. And there you learn how the tactical employment of communications equipment out in the field, because usually when you graduate from there, then you wind up going into the artillery, infantry or armor—and so those are combat, we call 'em combat branches—so there you need to know how to interact with that type of environment. And then, some folks are selected to go in additional training—like I was selected to go to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey, where I was in a course called the Communications Officers Course. And there I learned how to operate radios, and that was the branch that was involved in data communications, encryption, you know, things like that. And that was a eight-week course as well. So that was kind of like a summary of the training that you would get after you are initially inducted into the Army. 00:07:43.285 --> 00:07:49.305 What was it like training with encryption and learning that? 00:07:49.305 --> 00:08:37.995 It was real interesting. I was kind of interested in computers and the like. And you have to remember, this is back in 1969 and a lot of the computers were these old IBMs where you use these cards—IBM cards that you punch out. You know, the different holes, and they had card readers. And so computers were at its infancy—but you know we were progressing. And encryption was important because later I wound up in missile systems. And there encryption is a really big deal because you have, you know, the codes—launch codes for nukes and stuff. And so that was really helpful to me, you know, to get that kind of a background before I actually got assigned to a unit. 00:08:37.995 --> 00:08:41.595 What was your first assignment after basic training? 00:08:41.595 --> 00:09:31.715 Well, I was assigned to Fort Ord, California, which is just up the coast. It's close to Monterey. And it was—I really enjoyed it there because I liked the weather and everything, but this was a very large fort there. And I was assigned to a signal battalion. And my job was to support the units—the infantry units primarily—that were in training there with communication and also support some of the schools they had there for advanced training. Usually when you have basic training, the enlisted men undergo further training—like in radios or wiremen and whatever—and we also supported those units as well. 00:09:31.715 --> 00:09:41.504 When you were at Fort Ord, I remember recalling during your pre-interview, didn't you have a special assignment for like burial ceremonies? 00:09:41.504 --> 00:11:54.544 Yes. When you're—in the military you always get extra duties, and because Fort Ord had a large military establishment, when a serviceman was killed in action and the family wanted a burial detail—which was the highest level where they would have, you know, riflemen for the rifle squad for the volley. And then they would also probably have six pallbearers, a bugler and an NCO (Non-Commissioned Officer). They would usually have a lieutenant go with that detail to provide services, you know, for the service member that was killed in action. And for us, it's a big deal when a serviceman gets injured or in this case killed, the utmost respect and honor is allocated to him and his family. And so I would be in charge of putting it all together—getting all the soldiers together and trying to make sure they're trained. And a lot, you know, of this work is done with the NCOs because they're the experts in these areas. And we would take a van—usually a small bus sometimes. But in one case we went up to Oakland, and we went there and there were protesters there—'cause this was in 1969, '70, so there was a lot of protesting the Vietnam War. And so it was really disheartening to us because when we entered the cemetery there were protestors there and they had signs that they were chanting, you know. And some of the signs that, you know, like they were like, "A life wasted," you know. And really derogatory kinds of messages. (Phone ringtone plays and automated voice says, "Unknown caller." The phone is silenced.) I thought I turned that thing off. Is it off? 00:11:54.544 --> 00:12:01.955 So back to the—so there was a service member that was being buried? 00:12:01.955 --> 00:13:12.394 Correct. And so I'm in this bus with probably about 20 soldiers, and most of them have just returned from Vietnam. And most of them had, you know, post-traumatic stress (Post-traumatic stress disorder ; PTSD). So they were real upset. And so, you know, we had to be—I had to contain them and make sure they'd get off the bus. And fortunately when we got into the cemetery, they had a gate there. So these protestors were not able to get in onto the grounds of the cemetery, which was good because that way they didn't interfere with the ceremony. But, you know, I get it. You know, people have a right to freedom of speech. You know, that's one of the things that soldiers do—they try to uphold the constitution. But there comes a point where, you know, you can get to a limit where it's just not respectful, you know, to do that in this type of a situation—especially a ceremony—a burial ceremony. 00:13:12.394 --> 00:13:17.514 What was the hardest adjustment to military life for you? 00:13:17.514 --> 00:15:04.634 Well, I think that initially when you get in the military, it's a whole new environment. I mean, it's 24/7 when you get into the military. You don't control necessarily where you go. I mean, you can ask to go to certain forts and certain locations, but you really don't have a final say. It's that whole saying, you know, "The military will put you where they need you," or, "The Army will assign you where they need you." And especially when there's a war like the Vietnam War going on, then yeah, you wind up going anywhere you want. You get—you move constantly. And you're constantly having to go and learn different kinds of tasks even though you're within a certain branch. You have to learn to work with different people, different superiors and all. That's fine, but it's very condensed. It happens a lot more often, especially when you're first starting off. You have to go into different training environments and you have to adapt. And a lot depends on rank, too. I mean, if you're a Private E1 one, you know, you don't get the same kind of benefits you would as a Second Lieutenant. I mean, the living conditions—and if you have a family, too. You know, it's awkward, constantly moving around, especially if you deploy overseas. Sometimes you can move with your family to a house and the government provides—the military provides housing for you—sometimes not. So it's like going into a new world in a new environment. So you have to adapt. 00:15:04.634 --> 00:15:18.000 So we're moving on to your deployment experience when you first got to Europe. You had mentioned that you were stationed in Europe during the Cold War— 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:19.000 Mm-hmm. (Labrado nods his head affirmatively.) 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:21.764 —and so what was that like for you? 00:15:21.764 --> 00:18:22.664 Well, again, the Cold War occurred right after the end of World War II. And as you probably know, when the Russians liberated Europe, those countries that they liberated, they wanted to maintain their political system, so they became communist countries heavily influenced by Russia. And in those days, Russia had—sort of like the United States had—they had the United Soviet Socialist Republic (The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics). They were like a federation of states. They were like 17 states that encompassed the USSR. Plus they had the Warsaw Pact, which was another six or seven countries, and they sort of duplicated NATO (The North Atlantic Treaty Organization). And so in those days, back in the 1970s, for instance, Russia was a real prevalent opponent because they had like 22 countries that they could control in one way or the other. And one of those countries was East Germany—'cause East Germany was split in half—again—where the Russians had taken over the territory in Germany, that became dominated by Russia and became communist. Anyway, so in Europe we had of course NATO, and we were concerned with making sure that the Russians didn't invade—or the Soviet Union—Western Europe. So the problem was they were very close, you know? They were right on the borders. And so this was something where we as soldiers wanted to be sure that we were able to react and defend Western Europe. So that was kind of the situation. And simultaneously the Vietnam War was going on. And to give you a perspective, there was around 300,000 as I recall, military presence—U.S. presence—in Europe. And there was about 550,000 soldiers in Vietnam and around 65,000 in Korea. And so most of the focus was in Vietnam. But you couldn't leave Europe undefended because the Russians then might take advantage. And so it's one thing if you lose war in Vietnam, but a whole other scenario if you get into a conflict with Russia, because Russia has the nukes. And so you wanna make sure that that portion of the world is secure. So that's—so the environment that we were in way back in the 1970s. 00:18:22.664 --> 00:18:49.483 Was it—I've often heard one veteran describe it as, it was hard because you have the Vietnam War happening and then you're in Europe during the Cold War, and then there's protests happening stateside. One veteran described it as every time there was a protest, the Russians will get more bolder in Europe. Did you experience anything like that? 00:18:49.483 --> 00:19:55.825 Not a lot that I noticed. In terms of the protest, one of the things that was interesting to me is—I mentioned to you that I went to school at the University of California, Santa Barbara. Well, when I was in Europe, there was a community right next to the campus called Isla Vista, and the bank got burned as a result of a protest—an anti-war protest. It burned a Bank of America down. And I was in Europe at the time. And I was saying, "Wow." You know, 'cause this was a big deal for us, you know, to see that happening—especially in my case, which is right next to the school I graduated from. And I think that was—we got information about the protests and what was going on in the states, but it didn't directly affect us as far as I'm aware of in terms of deployments of any troops in Europe—Russian troops. 00:19:55.825 --> 00:20:01.464 What was your job in Europe to do while you were in Europe? 00:20:01.464 --> 00:23:40.233 Well, I was a battalion signal officer for a Nike Hercules missile battalion. And these are surface to air missiles. They're about 42 feet high, so they're big missiles. And their main objective is to shoot down medium- or high-altitude aircrafts—meaning bombers—and they're radar guided. And they are—we use them as—you can use 'em like for artillery—that is, you can hit land targets with it. We can also shoot down incoming missiles, but our main function would be to shoot down aircraft. And then also we had nuclear warheads on these missiles in the event that went into a nuclear war. And so we had—in my battalion, for instance, we had about 12 of these missiles deployed in various firing batteries. So we could shoot 12 off at one time. So the scenario would be, once the president declares war, we would get notified and then we would then react accordingly. And hopefully it would not be a nuclear war because that would be, you know, that would be horrible. And then we would then fire our missiles and deploy them, as, you know, required. And our main focus was to defend Ramstein Air Force Base—which was a large air force base in Western Europe—and also the NATO troops that were in the western portion of Germany. So usually what would happen when we go on alert is we saw a concentration of enemy, in this case, Russian troops concentrated in one area and like they were gonna deploy. Or if we saw any kind of aircraft coming over that looked like they were going in our airspace, we would then go on alert. And what would happen typically is the Russians would try to, you know, annoy us. They would send the planes towards our airspace and then the Air Force would send fighters out, and of course we would be ready to shoot down, you know, the Russian bombers or whatever if they got past the fighters. But they usually turned around, you know. They were just trying to make everybody aware that they were there. And then two, the other dimension is the political situation. Like, well, not so much the protestors was an issue, but if there was any kind of—well, like the JFK assassination, something like that, or the Cuban crisis (Cuban Missile Crisis), or any kind of real major assassination or political discord—then we would go on alert because we would not know how Russia would react. So we wanted to be sure, you know, that we were ready. So we were always on duty 24/7. I was really pleased that I had really good NCOs in my company because they were critical. I mean, those were the folks that actually did the work and made sure the men were doing their assigned tasks. So I was real fortunate in that respect. 00:23:40.233 --> 00:23:44.595 Were there any lighthearted memories or humorous events that you'd like to share? 00:23:44.595 --> 00:25:28.265 Well, there was one. My soon to be wife, Linda, she went to visit one of her relatives in France, so she went over to Germany. So we spent a couple of days—I got leave—and so I, at that time had a 1957 Volkswagen Beetle, and it was really kind of a relic in that it had—it only operated three out of four cylinders and it rusted out all of the floor of—the vehicle had rusted out because, you know, they use a lot of salt and it snows a lot. And so you could actually put your foot completely down into the road. So we put a piece of plywood there. And the other cool part of that VW was it didn't have a gas meter, so you never knew how much gas you had. So you had this little knob that if you saw the car sputtering, you twist the knob one direction and you get another gallon of gas and you go to a gas station. Anyway, what happened is it started to rain and we got stranded in the middle of nowhere in this VW and we were trying to figure out, you know, how we were gonna get back to—well, I was gonna get back to my duty station, 'cause you know, if you don't show up on time, it's a bad thing. You know, (Labrado laughs) if you're in the military, you could be AWOL (Absent Without Leave). So anyway, everything worked out. But it was really funny because we were in the VW and it's raining and we're we trying to hitch a ride, you know, to get back to my fort. And in the end we looked back and it was funny. 00:25:28.265 --> 00:25:33.875 Did you carry any rituals or keepsakes, or did you do anything for good luck during your time in service? 00:25:33.875 --> 00:26:55.904 Well, one of the things, in my unit we had firing batteries, and we don't put all of our firing batteries all together—you know, I had to spread 'em out. A firing battery would be maybe five or six missiles in one site. And, then we'd have maybe another firing battery five or ten miles from our battalion operation center—and we'd have 'em spread out. And I would go to these firing batteries sometimes to inspect them and stop off to have a meal. And they would have what they call in Germany gasthauses. And they're kind of like inns where you go in and you could have food and have a bar. And they even had, usually, a little hotel. You could stay there overnight. And I would collect from each gasthaus a glass, because each of these gasthauses specialized in certain kinds of beer. And so I came back with about 30 of these glasses of beer where they had these really cool emblems—because the Germans were really big on beer—and each of the breweries had their own emblem. So I thought that was kind of cool. And it brought back, you know, fond memories of going and interacting with the Germans in their, like, inns. 00:26:55.904 --> 00:27:04.993 So now we're coming up to your transition out of service. Where did you go immediately after you separated from service? 00:27:04.993 --> 00:27:21.944 Well, I went back up to Santa Barbara, and I resumed my education, and I was working on a master's. And basically that's what I came back to. 00:27:21.944 --> 00:27:27.345 How were you received by your family and your community back in Santa Barbara? 00:27:27.345 --> 00:28:19.944 My family was great. It was really pleased to see me. They were happy to see me, of course. The community was sort of lukewarm, you know. Some people were kind of lukewarm, when they saw someone in uniform during, you know, the 1968 through '70, '71. And so they were kind of aloof, you know. The Germans on the other hand probably viewed us differently. They saw us as defending or at least preventing the Russians from invading. But in the states, a lot of people thought that the war was an unjust war and it was an unpopular war. And some of that got reflected, you know, on servicemen. 00:28:19.944 --> 00:28:22.595 Was that hard for you to take in? 00:28:22.595 --> 00:29:26.355 Well, initially when you're, like, in Europe and, you know, you get the impression that you're there to protect United States—in this case from an attack, but—and then you find a lot of the citizens really aren't supporting you. That, you know, they think you really are pursuing an unjust war. And so it's kind of awkward because on one hand you're thinking that, "Gosh, we're doing a good thing here." But then on another hand, a lot of the citizens really didn't respect the uniform or the military at that point. And this is only a small portion of the population, but they were very vocal, and a lot of them, of course, were college kids and especially males because, you know, they were the ones who were gonna get drafted. So they were vociferous and—you know. 00:29:26.355 --> 00:29:31.634 What was it like for you to adjust back to civilian life? 00:29:31.634 --> 00:30:18.275 Well, I think I had a smooth transition. Again, I went back to work on my master's and you know, was able to pick up where I left off. But I did notice that when I graduated from college, some of my friends went directly into their careers. And so one of my best friends, when I got out, he became a lawyer. He got his degree and everything. So there was a integral period of time there where a lot of my friends were actually further along in their careers because, you know, I had served in the military and, you know, they of course went into their particular careers. 00:30:18.275 --> 00:30:23.275 What do you wish more people understood about veterans? 00:30:23.275 --> 00:31:22.994 Well, I think that people should really recognize and respect veterans because—and especially veterans that have served in combat roles, because they really have given a lot. Their families had to move constantly and frequently. Their servicemember is gone from the family. And when they serve in a combat role, a lot of the servicemen come back with like post-traumatic stress or physical injuries or mental injuries, and these folks need to be taken care of because they've given so much and that should be acknowledged and they should be supported by, you know, the community in the U.S. 00:31:22.994 --> 00:31:33.474 Following up with the reflections, what message would you want to leave for future generations who may watch or hear this interview? 00:31:33.474 --> 00:35:13.425 Well, I think the first thing is that we, I was in a situation back in 1970, '71, where there was a real threat with Russia because the threat was one in which we could actually get in a nuclear war. And so there are like different stages of war—especially like in Europe—there's conventional war, which is what we would be involved in using, you know, normal kinds of warfare, like in Vietnam. And then there's also limited nuclear war where you would just contain the nuclear war within Western Europe or Eastern Europe. And then hopefully, you know, the politicians or the leaders of the countries would stop there and negotiate a peace. But then if you go into the next level, which is the level where you have and use intercontinental ballistic missiles, and that's Armageddon. I mean, that's when hundreds of missiles go back and forth. And so there's like these three levels, and we were in Europe as part of NATO primarily as a deterrent to make sure that we don't escalate into those levels. So right now, for instance, we have Russia invaded the Ukraine. So that's like a conventional war, which is—it's horrific, but you know, it's contained. But if we were part—if Ukraine was part of NATO, then you would have all the western countries in the US involved in a war with Russia. And at that point, you know, it can escalate. So the point is that deterrence has worked—at least up to this point deterrence, as far as the Russians invading the NATO countries. So I think in that respect, you know, I was proud to be part of that because this is a deterrent that needs to occur so that we don't get in a war with a country that has nukes because we don't want it to escalate or progress to an all out nuclear war. Like in my battalion for instance, we were a tactical unit, so we had to use anywhere from 2 kilotons to 20 kiloton warheads. But even a 20 kiloton warhead was devastating. For instance, in Nagasaki they had I think a 12 kiloton warhead used in that particular bombing, and 150,000 people died. So, but now if it becomes an intercontinental missile, some of those missiles have over 300 kilotons. So you can see that we are at the point now where we have to do everything we can to minimize conflict, 'cause you can never know when it escalates. So in that sense, I think that I was real comfortable with the fact that I was a part of deterring and hopefully preventing any kind of conflict to escalate, because, you know, the threat of nuclear war is horrific. 00:35:13.425 --> 00:35:22.275 If you were to reflect on the journey of your service, what themes or life lessons emerge? 00:35:22.275 --> 00:37:13.945 Well, I think the most important thing is that you learn is service. I think that—well, I grew up in an age where John F. Kennedy said, you know, it's not what you can do for your country—it's what—it's basically what you could do for your country. And that's the critical thing. And I think that, you know, that could be, you know, volunteering, you know, in the Peace Corps or volunteering in hospitals—or actually it is working in gainful employment. In my case service was kind of important because I grew up in that environment, because my dad was in the military. So I think that's important. The need to serve in, some capacity, your country. Because you know, you look back and you see all the benefits this country has—I know we have our issues, but compared to other countries, and I visited a number of countries, our country's great—I mean, it's worth defending. The other thing I learned a lot personally is how to handle people. You know, how to motivate them, how to get them to do what you wanna do. And these were important skills that I learned when I went into the private sector and started working. And like, you learn that, 'cause when you're dealing with like soldiers, just because you have the rank doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna do it to their utmost ability. You have to be able to motivate them to get the most maximum output from them so that you can get the job done. And you have to—you learn a lot about supervision. And these are the kinds of skills that I learned. 00:37:13.945 --> 00:37:20.945 Thank you again for sharing your story. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LabradoEd_BeyerJason_2025-11-17_access.xml LabradoEd_BeyerJason_2025-11-17_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Labrado, Ed. Interview November 17th, 2025. Description An account of the resource Edwin Joseph Labrado Jr. was a captain in the U.S. Army Signal Corps. He was deployed in Europe during the Vietnam War. Labrado was born and raised in Santa Barbara, where he graduated from UCSB and completed the Army's four-year ROTC program. After graduation, he was assigned to the Army Signal Corps and later deployed to Europe. In Europe, he served as a battalion signal officer for a Nike Hercules missile battalion that had nuclear warheads. Some of his other responsibilities included communications training, military funeral honors, and the inspection of firing batteries. In this oral history interview, Labrado reflected on the Cold War, the US anti-Vietnam War movement, and how Americans treat veterans after military service. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-096 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-11-17 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ed Labrado Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Ed Labrado Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army United States. Army—Officers United States. Army. Signal Corps Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Cold War University of California, Santa Barbara Patton, George S. (George Smith), 1885-1945 United States. Army. Army, 3rd United States. Army. Armored Division, 6th United States. Army. Reserve Officers' Training Corps Reserve Officers’ Training Corps (United States) Camp Roberts (Calif.) M1 rifle World War, 1914-1918 Korean War, 1950-1953 M14 rifle M16 rifle Fort Gordon (Ga.) Fort Monmouth (N.J.) Cryptography Missiles Fort Ord (Calif.) Funeral rites and ceremonies Noncommissioned officers Post-traumatic stress disorder Warsaw Pact (1955-1991) North Atlantic Treaty Organization Bank of America, National Association Nike Hercules missile Nuclear weapons Ramstein Air Base (Germany) Kennedy, John F., 1917-1963—Assassination Cuban Missile Crisis, 1962 United States. Army—Deserters Nuclear warfare Deterrence (Strategy) Peace Corps (U.S.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Europe Santa Barbara (Calif.) Port Hueneme (Calif.) California Ventura (Calif.) Georgia New Jersey Monterey (Calif.) Oakland (Calif.) Russia (Federation) Soviet Union Germany (East) Germany (West) Korea Vietnam Isla Vista (Calif.) France Germany United States Ukraine Nagasaki (Japan) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1a4cb10af909f7e8e036bfff8b99ea18.pdf 1257c47452e8b4197dc47150c62d1be9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Williams, Elmer Royce. Interview transcript, November 8, 2024. Description An account of the resource Elmer Royce Williams is a retired United States naval aviator, nationally lauded for his solo dogfight against seven Soviet pilots during the Korean War. Since his time in service, he has been increasingly recognized for his achievements. He was awarded the Navy Cross in 2023 and has been nominated for the Medal of Honor. In his 2024 interview, Williams described that transformative moment in his life and how it affected the Korean War. He also discussed his childhood, military enlistment, and military training. Approaching 100 years old at the time, Williams reflected on how religion, family, community, civilian work, and veterans' organizations shaped his life after service. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Elmer Royce Williams Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Adel Bautista Marilyn Huerta Justin Gans Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Wilmot (S.D) Korea Vietnam San Marcos (Calif.) Africa, North Little Falls (Minn.) Ortonville (Minn.) Panama Soviet Union Escondido (Calif.) Hawaii San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Elmer Royce Williams Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WilliamsElmerRoyce_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_transcript Subject The topic of the resource Korean War, 1950-1953 United States--Armed Forces--Veterans Air pilots, Military -- United States. Navy United States. Navy Air combat Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer, Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Elmer Royce Williams OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Veteran;Korean War;Naval aviator;Dogfight OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Williams, Elmer Royce. Interview November 8th, 2024 SC027-074 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran ; Korean War ; Naval aviator ; Dogfight Elmer Royce Williams Jason Beyer, Marilyn Huerta, Adel Bautista Moving image WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d6799d074d31395fe8b6205edd027f3f.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 50 Military Background Williams lists his years of service, branches of service, the highest rank he attained, and the wars he participated in. Navy ; Army ; Navy Captain ; World War II ; Korean War ; Vietnam War 0 76 Childhood Williams describes growing up in rural South Dakota, where he lived on a farm and worked in a grocery store. Wilmar, South Dakota ; rural ; farm ; grocery store ; World War I 0 136 Military Enlistment Williams describes his decision to enlist in the Army. He was always fond of aviation, and the military provided the best training. enlistment ; Army ; aviation 0 221 Military Training Williams reflects on his military training. Includes his worst experience, his first assignment after basic training, his views on instructors, his switch from the Army to the Navy, and his promotions. training ; bootcamp ; promotion ; instructor ; Army ; Navy 0 600 Adaptation to Military Lifestyle Williams describes the highs and lows of adapting to military service and mentions the wartime conflicts he was part of. World War II ; Korean War ; Vietnam War ; family ; military lifestyle ; stateside service ; wartime service 0 751 The Korean War and the Dogfight Williams tells his remarkable story about surviving a solo dogfight against seven Soviet pilots during the Korean War. Includes contextual details about the Korean War as well as descriptions of the political aftermath. Williams describes how some historians have written about the event. dogfight ; Korean War ; Soviet Union ; combat ; Washington ; Eisenhower ; Admiral Briscoe ; history 0 2141 Keeping Military Secrets Williams describes how difficult it was to keep his experiences secret in order to preserve national security. He recalls seeing reports on military events that he knew to be inaccurate or untrue. secrets ; military ; history ; censorship ; lies 0 2180 Interactions With Local Cultures During Wartime Service Although most of his service was in aircraft, Williams describes a war-torn Seoul. Shares stories of how Korean political and military leaders continue to honor him with awards for his service. Korea ; Medal of Honor ; Seoul ; Eisenhower ; culture 0 2282 Comradery and Recreation During Service Williams describes the strong bonds he built with members of his squadron. He also describes recreational activities, including volleyball and reading. comradery ; friendship ; squadron ; recreation ; volleyball ; reading ; religion ; prayer 0 2458 Injury, End of Service, and Return Home Williams experienced a plane crash in San Diego. He recalls how he dealt with the injuries that would eventually lead him to retire from the navy. retirement ; injury ; plane crash ; hospital ; San Diego ; surgery 0 2774 Return to Civilian Life After leaving the service, Williams gets his master’s degree and works in business. He describes his experience with the GI Bill, working in law, joining veterans' organizations, and keeping friendships. college ; business ; GI Bill ; law ; veterans’ organizations ; friendship 0 2949 Life Lessons from Military Service Williams describes life lessons he gained from military service. His recent nomination for the Medal of Honor has kept him busy with speaking engagements. He is also the president of a local congregation. He encourages people to stay positive, find community, and treat their civic responsibilities seriously. Medal of Honor ; life lessons ; reflections ; congregation ; president ; community ; civic responsibilities 0 3126 Involvement in North County San Diego Community Williams describes his involvement in the North County San Diego community, particularly in the city of Escondido. He also describes some of his day-to-activities with his family. Escondido, California ; community ; family ; Ikebana ; shooting ; home building 0 3271 Reflections on the Experiences of Veterans Williams wishes more people understood that veterans are kind people who serve their nation and are an important productive part of their community. He says military service taught him that life is a team sport. He recommends having a family and says family has been important to him. veterans ; family ; nation ; military service ; community 0 Oral history Elmer Royce Williams is a retired United States naval aviator, nationally lauded for his solo dogfight against seven Soviet pilots during the Korean War. Since his time in service, he has been increasingly recognized for his achievements. He was awarded the Navy Cross in 2023 and has been nominated for the Medal of Honor. In his 2024 interview, Williams described that transformative moment in his life and how it affected the Korean War. He also discussed his childhood, military enlistment, and military training. Approaching 100 years old at the time, Williams reflected on how religion, family, community, civilian work, and veterans' organizations shaped his life after service. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:50.774 My name is Jason Beyer, and I'm a graduate of California State University San Marcos. Today I will be interviewing Elmer Royce Williams. Today's date is Friday, November 8, 2024. The general location where this interview is being conducted is at the Williams residence in Escondido, California. My relationship to the interviewee is that we are both military veterans. The names of the people attending this interview include Marilyn Huerta ; camera operator, Adel Bautista ; Jason Beyer, the interviewer ; Elmer Royce Williams, the interviewee. And the purpose of this interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your full name. 00:00:50.774 --> 00:00:53.435 Elmer Royce Williams. 00:00:53.435 --> 00:00:56.045 What branch of service you were in? 00:00:56.045 --> 00:01:04.474 I started in the Army for a couple years, then I went into the Navy. I served 37 years. 00:01:04.474 --> 00:01:07.204 What was the highest rank that you attained? 00:01:07.204 --> 00:01:10.394 Navy Captain O-6. 00:01:10.394 --> 00:01:13.185 What war or conflicts were you a part of? 00:01:13.185 --> 00:01:16.545 World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. 00:01:16.545 --> 00:01:23.265 That's the easiest part of this interview. Now it's time for the questions. Where were you born? 00:01:23.265 --> 00:01:29.075 Wilmot, South Dakota in 1925. 00:01:29.075 --> 00:01:33.385 Does your family have any past affiliations with the military? 00:01:33.385 --> 00:01:45.745 My father was in World War I. My brother was in the same wars that I was. He retired as a Marine Colonel. 00:01:45.745 --> 00:01:50.504 Did you hold any jobs before entering the military? 00:01:50.504 --> 00:02:00.715 Yes, uh, I was in a rural area and I worked on farms. My father was a grocer, and I worked in the store. 00:02:00.715 --> 00:02:06.734 What was it like for you working in the store and growing up on a farm? 00:02:06.734 --> 00:02:16.645 Well, I think it was the standard of the day. And, it suited me. 00:02:16.645 --> 00:02:21.995 When and why did you choose to join the military? 00:02:21.995 --> 00:02:53.555 My first airplane ride was when I was four years old. I was enthused and my dreams—well, this brought me toward aviation. And, in those days, the best organized, publicized aviation was military. And I sort of switched my dreams in that direction. 00:02:53.555 --> 00:02:56.254 Did you—were you drafted or did you enlist? 00:02:56.254 --> 00:03:01.324 I enlisted when I was 16. 00:03:01.324 --> 00:03:05.925 And which branch did you enter, and why did you choose that branch? 00:03:05.925 --> 00:03:42.064 Army. And primarily it was National Guard that was nationalized. I had two cousins in it. They deployed to North Africa. My two cousins were killed. I didn't go because of my age, I think. So I continued to serve and I trained and spent time in Camp Ripley in Little Falls, Minnesota. 00:03:42.064 --> 00:03:50.224 The earlier days of service. For your earlier days of service, what type of training or school did you have? 00:03:50.224 --> 00:04:15.034 Primarily infantry training. Rifle range, cross country marches. And I was trained as a drill instructor, which came in handy for the unit I was attached to. 00:04:15.034 --> 00:04:27.824 What was your most vivid memory? Both best and worst parts of your time in training or in school. 00:04:27.824 --> 00:05:09.653 Well, I'll say interesting. We had a cross country toward dusk and it took us through some of the lakes and ponds in Minnesota and swarmed with mosquitoes. In that it was night, we had to orient our maps with a flashlight but not be seen. So I took my poncho, put it over my head, and studied the map. Trapped about 30 some mosquitoes when I did that. And that was unpleasant. 00:05:09.653 --> 00:05:12.425 So that was probably—I would say—your worst part of the training. 00:05:12.425 --> 00:05:16.584 Yeah, that was (laughs). 00:05:16.584 --> 00:05:21.694 What was your first assignment after basic training? 00:05:21.694 --> 00:05:54.653 The unit that was located at Ortonville, Minnesota. It's, uh, at the south tip of Big Stone Lake, which is 36 miles long and is a prominent part of the western border of Minnesota. It comes straight up from Iowa, and it hits Big Stone Lake and makes a jog. 00:05:54.653 --> 00:06:00.144 Do you recall your instructors while you were in school? 00:06:00.144 --> 00:06:08.795 Not by name. I'm not good at remembering names. But yes, I recall my training. 00:06:08.795 --> 00:06:11.605 Were they good instructors in your opinion? 00:06:11.605 --> 00:07:12.264 I thought so. Problem we had was we were on the rifle range with ammunition from World War I stored in Panama, which is moist and not good conditions. So we were advised that if we had a problem and it didn't fire—hang fire, we called it—to not open the breach but call the sergeant instructor. I had one that was poor performance. Pull the trigger and it fired, but the bullet landed in the grass about 10 feet in front of me. But down the line on the rifle range was a man that didn't follow instructions. And as he opened the breach, it fired and he lost an eye. 00:07:12.264 --> 00:07:25.795 Did you qualify for equipment such as vehicles, aircraft, radio, weapons? And if yes, what was the training like with that equipment? 00:07:25.795 --> 00:07:43.154 Well, definitely airplane. When I switched over to the Navy, I was in the aviation cadet program. And if I completed it completely, I would be on my way flying fighter aircraft off aircraft carriers. 00:07:43.154 --> 00:07:50.754 What was the switch like for you, and how did it make you feel switching from the Army over into the Navy? 00:07:50.754 --> 00:08:09.345 It's what I wanted. I wanted to be a carrier pilot, and this offered an avenue, and I was happy about it. 00:08:09.345 --> 00:08:17.024 Did you receive any promotions, and could you tell me about them during your time in the Navy? 00:08:17.024 --> 00:09:03.595 Yes, in the Navy I had sort of a head start going through bootcamp and was a company commander. And that followed me through aviation cadet training, as well. Because I was a corporal in the Army, I had training at, uh—gave me kind of a head start—And then in a long career I got commissioned, and I moved up the ladder in normal sequencing to an O-6 position. 00:09:03.595 --> 00:09:16.315 What would you say was the biggest difference between your enlisted promotions and your officer promotions? 00:09:16.315 --> 00:10:00.965 As an officer it was more wide-ranging at where instead of being a specialist, except for flying, was broad and personnel management. But records and maintenance training—many avenues and responsibility at a higher level—to where, eventually, as command of a ship it is a rather interesting and wide-range responsibility. 00:10:00.965 --> 00:10:08.865 What was the hardest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? 00:10:08.865 --> 00:10:11.835 Being away from my wife and family. 00:10:11.835 --> 00:10:14.335 Why do you think that was? 00:10:14.335 --> 00:10:52.565 'Cause over long periods of time, it left my wife managing three sons. All different ages, different schools. I can't imagine how she was able to maintain the driving schedule. And when I retired she said, "Okay, now you do the income tax." So she had a wide range of responsibility. And unfortunately, I would love to have been partnering in it, but I was gone so much of the time. 00:10:52.565 --> 00:10:59.125 What was the easiest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? 00:10:59.125 --> 00:11:25.325 Friendships. Harmony. You're part of a team. You get to know and like one another. Trust. Lean on. Depend. And, um—I think all aspects of military are—you're working with teamwork. 00:11:25.325 --> 00:11:37.924 What were your interactions like with people you encountered during your stateside service? 00:11:37.924 --> 00:12:08.384 Well, it was a variety of things. Often schools—even if you were just with a unit—it is mostly training in the fighter business. We would train over in the desert to fire rockets and bombs and guns and hit the target. Coordinate with the rest of the team. Prepare for combat. 00:12:08.384 --> 00:12:14.294 During your wartime service, what wartime conflicts were you a part of. 00:12:14.294 --> 00:12:31.294 World War II—I didn't actually get shot at by enemy—uh, Korea, Vietnam. I was rather heavily involved in those wars. 00:12:31.294 --> 00:12:36.365 Where and when did you serve in the Korean conflict? 00:12:36.365 --> 00:13:11.705 1952-53 on an aircraft carrier normally operating at the 38th parallel in support of ground forces and destruction of enemy logistics, trains, trucks, ox carts. But of course, air support for our fighters on the ground. Except for one novel incident that I got involved in. 00:13:11.705 --> 00:13:14.995 Do you care discussing that incident? 00:13:14.995 --> 00:29:24.605 Sure. Admiral (Joseph) Jocko Clark was Task Force 77, which was on site on the USS Missouri and was running the naval operations. That was basically the eastern half of Korea, both north and south. And the distance between targets—some of it was very important manufacturing and storage, and logistics is the heart of wars. So our job was to stifle, destroy their capability. And we couldn't get to all the targets because of distance. So Admiral Clark formed a task force of three carriers and probably twenty-some other ships, destroyers, including his battleship. And we moved north off the city of Ch'ŏngjin, which is about a hundred miles south of the Soviet Union and Vladivostok. And we operated there and could then reach all the other targets that we normally wanted to but couldn't. And, uh, I was on the first mission in the morning and we hit targets in a city called Hoeryong. It is right on the Yalu River, which is the border between the Soviet Union and North Korea. These operations stirred up the Soviets. We didn't go to their territory, which is having such—military operation that close to them got them very excited, and they launched lots of airplanes and the radio chatter became heavy and everything, you know, they were very concerned. Well, upon completion of that, I went back and landed on the aircraft carrier, and I was told to get lunch and get ready, and I was going to go off on the next combat air patrol. When the first flight, the weather was good and we were operating pretty much in clear air. In the meanwhile, a blizzard moved in and the bottom of the clouds were around 500 feet and the tops were at 12,000 feet. So we briefed. I got lunch. Briefed. We launched. And we rendezvoused four aircraft below the clouds, and then climbed two for an assignment above the clouds. And while in and on our way, our combat information center notified us that there were inbound bogies, meaning unidentified aircraft. They could be friendly or enemy. We didn't know. Well, as we popped on top of the clouds, I could see, coming from the north, seven contrails in formation headed right at us. I didn't particularly diagnose who they might be, but they were coming from the Soviet Union direction. Well, as they, uh, were getting near us, the leader of the flight had a warning light that his—well, engine warning problem came on and he was directed to take his wingman and return. We would stay over at the task force. So that left me and my wingman to handle the rest of the mission. So, they said to proceed and intercept. So I charged my guns and made everything ready for war and led the two of us climbing in their directions. Well, as they came over, they reversed and headed back from whence they came and out-distanced me. So when we got to 26,000 feet, they were probably 50 miles north of us and—extreme altitude, 50 some thousand feet, I'm sure—but making contrails, so they were easily sighted. But they split into two groups and turned away from each other and started diving out of that altitude. And when they left the contrail level, it was just plain sight to the airplanes. And I no longer could see them and reported that to the ship. And they had also lost sight in that it was a smaller target and they didn't hold 'em on the radar anymore. So I was directed to reverse course and set up a barricade between the last sighting of the aircraft—which I had identified as MiGs (Mikoyan and Gurevic), which meant enemy—and to patrol between the last sighting and the task force. Well, in that turn, four of them came in sort of head-on—ten o'clock position, all firing—and I knew the game was on. So as they passed, I made a hard turn and ended up on the tail of their last guy. And after a short burst, he fell out of formation and started going down, and my wingman left me and followed that aircraft on down. And so he was out of the fight. And I'm alone with the other three airplanes that dove in the other direction—now joining the group. So I am one against six. So they climbed sharply above me to a rate I couldn't maintain, but I was pointed at them and trailing, and they turned around and came back at me as I'm the target. And I was intending to encounter the guy that just lost his wingman, but I lost him in the sun, and I saw the other two already lined up coming at me. So I switched my aim and aimed at the lead aircraft who was already shooting with larger caliber guns and probably having capability to shoot in an encounter at a greater range. Well, when I sighted on them, I was in range and I fired a short burst. And he stopped, fired, and turned away. And I had later on learned enough information that I have surmised that he was probably hit. The other guy, his wingman, now was coming directly at me and shooting, and I turned and sighted on him. And when I was set ready with him, my target, I fired a burst and he quit firing. But he didn't maneuver. He just kept coming and went directly under my airplane. And I was hosing him all the way. So he was definitely going down. Probably killed. So they had now passed me, but the other three planes came in from the other direction and now they were all split into individuals and taking their turns attacking me. Well, my attention at that point was primarily my six o'clock tail position where they were taking turns on me. And I was their target, and my job was to spoil their aim and survive the attack. And as a good pilot, they often made the run, and then they pulled up abruptly to get back in position to make another run, um, at a rate that I couldn't follow. But there was another guy right behind him, so I was pretty much full-time defensive. Occasionally they made a mistake. One of them flew in front of me and I got on and I hit him close in, and pieces of the airplane were coming off, and I had to maneuver to avoid hitting him. Well, it went on like that for thirty-five minutes. Longer than any other such mission I ever heard of—ever. And they had kept up, and I occasionally had the opportunity to have the sights on 'em and shoot. I at one point was on the tail of one, and he was burning, smoking and going down—slowing. And I was going to give an extra burst, but I was out of ammunition. And I looked around and that's the first time I straightened out that much and didn't pay attention behind me and (he was) on me—right on my tail. So I maneuvered hard, and he kept firing, and he hit me with a 37 millimeter, which is an anti-aircraft size ammunition. And it went into the wing butt on the starboard side of my airplane and exploded in the accessory section of the engine, right mid-airplane and shrapnel everywhere. And it severed the cable connecting to the rudder. So I no longer had that control. And it destroyed all the electrical and—not all of it—but all of the hydraulics. So I had a hydraulic controlled N1s (low speed spools). So I had very little control of that, mainly elevator. But luckily out-maneuvering left me pointed directly at where the task force was, so I didn't have to do a lot of turning to head toward that blizzard and the clouds at 12,000 feet. And this guy settled right on my tail, and 300 feet or so—ideal range to shoot me down—and he was just firing away with all of his guns. But I was using my elevator and I would jam it forward then pull it back. And I'm doing this sort of thing. (Williams gestures up and down). So I'm seeing the bullets go under me, then over me. And this just kept out until I got into the clouds. Heavy clouds that he lost sight of me. I lost sight of him. And since I was damaged and the airplane wasn't flying right—was auto rigged—I did a little testing to see what my survival rate might be. And I was too far away from the task force to eject. I had planned on ejecting, but there wouldn't have been anybody there to rescue me. And that was winter time, the conditions of the water and all. And even with the immersion suit that I was wearing flying, I wouldn't lasted more than maybe 18 minutes. So I stuck with the airplane and kept on track to get to the task force, hoping that I could do something to get rescued there. I didn't believe I'd be able to get landed aboard an aircraft carrier in these conditions, and the conditions of the weather and all. But I got undone and was coming in, under the clouds. So I'm visible to them, and unfortunately they were general quarters. And for all the ships there, that means guns free if they have an unidentified target, hasn't been labeled friendly, they're cleared to shoot. Well, the coordination had broken down between air control and the gunnery liaison people. So they shot at me. And my commanding officer had just taken off to be my relief, to go up and be on the air patrol. And saw what was happening and called them off. Said, he's friendly, and they stopped firing. So I started coordinating with the landing signal officer on the Oriskany, the carrier I was flying from and making plans for what's next. And it looked like I might be able to at least approach the carrier, which means there would probably be rescue forces all over the place. And I still was just barely hopeful I would land on the ship. Well, they were loaded with all the ships aft, the tail end, on a straight deck carrier. So they had to all be moved to the front part of the flight deck to provide space for me to land. That took a while. And I used that time to position myself as best as I could to be where I should be when I got the signal to land. And I tested the airplane at that time, and I found out that it wouldn't fly below 200 miles an hour, 170 knots. So I informed him of that. And they talked to the commanding officer of the carrier and he said, "Bring him in. Any speed he wants." Strong winds from the storm and the ship could do 30 knots. So not a problem speedwise, but alignment was another thing. So when I got the signal to land, I was lined up with the ship into the wind for landing, but I couldn't line up going down the deck to make a landing. I would've come across the deck, which is just a short distance, and I'd (have) gone over into the ocean. At least I would be near rescue forces if I lived through the crash. So I was coming in, doing the best I could, and the captain of the ship saw my plight and, being an aviator, he knew the problem—the only time I ever heard of it. But he turned the ship and lined it up with me, and I landed to catch the number three wire, which is perfect. So I'm back aboard with a whole lot of holes in an airplane, but I'm safe. 00:29:24.605 --> 00:29:31.724 So what happened once you landed and had to—did you hear from Washington or— 00:29:31.724 --> 00:35:41.905 Yes, I went to the ready room. The ship was at general quarters. All the pilots that weren't flying were in the ready room, they're stationed in those conditions. And as I came in—I was surprised—they were all smiling, beaming, and no one's saying anything. And my next job is to be debriefed by the intelligence officer. So I asked him, "What's going on here?" And he says, "I had them all pledge that they wouldn't say anything until I got through debriefing. So we went to the debrief area, and he didn't start talking. I said, "What's going on?" He said, "We are waiting for the flight leader." Well, the flight leader was already over the ship and had nothing to do with this combat. But he waited for him, and when he came in with the last one to land, they'd eaten up a fair amount of time. And on the squat box or radio communication between other units of the ship, the intelligence center is calling in Mac, our intelligence officer, "Get in here, Washington's on the line and they want answers. Right now!" We didn't know anything because the intelligence center would send things on our little—sort of TV—saying that I was engaged and so forth. So they knew that. And they knew I was hit. But not the rest of the story. I didn't know! Actually my attention was that hitting somebody and then diverting it immediately to my next problem. So when the whole flight got back, he started with the flight leader to debrief. And then his wingman, which had a little to say—important. And then to me. And I got a little into it of what little I knew. And he just broke it right up. They just kept—"Mac, get in here, get in here." And so he had to make a report, and he made it up, and it wasn't true. And that became Navy history. They don't wanna' know the truth. All—moving on. It's our last line on the combat line, and we're going into Yokosuka for repairs, replenishment—R&R (rest and recuperation)—and I was ordered to report to Admiral Briscoe, the Senior Navy Admiral in the Pacific—Western Pacific. And when I—oh, on the way down there I saw an aviation boatswain's mate. They're the people that handled the aircraft on the carrier. And I told him who I was and I'd been the pilot and I'd like to take a last look at the airplane before going ashore. He said, "I'm sorry, sir, but we pushed it over the side." And so what I heard was that they robbed it of usable parts, and so forth, and got rid of it. Turns out later, that might not be true. But that's what I was told. So I met with Admiral Briscoe—and I knew his aides and stuff—and they brought me to the door. He said, "The Admiral's waiting." And sure enough I did. He closed the door and he said, "Now, what you're about to hear, you could never tell anybody ever." And that sealed it as far as straightening the record—I just couldn't talk about it. But I learned that we had a new capability called NSA (National Security Agency), and a lot of people say no such agency. They were very closed mouth and don't share information except probably with the President and a few others. But they were on the line on a cruiser right off the coast of Vladivostok, where the base from which these MiGs came. And they wanted that young man to know that he got at least three. Okay, but I can't tell anybody. So I didn't for fifty some years. But in the meantime, Soviet Union broke up, and the Russians out of Moscow came up with a story in 1992 talking about this mission, and they put the names of four that were shot down that day. And then a naval historian came up with a book about something "on the Yalu," covering the big engagement during the Korean War, which was mainly the Air Force half, which was on a daily routine of trying to shoot with another down. But it covered this incident. And of the seven, only one returned. And that's not well known, but that's what the history book says. And where was I going with this? Well, concluded my debrief with Admiral Briscoe and went back to the ship, and in short order learned that President Eisenhower had pledged that if elected, he would go to Korea and see firsthand how things are and what he ought to do about it. And then he learned about this and he says, I want to see Royce Williams. And so as he came over, I was set up to meet him. 00:35:41.905 --> 00:35:47.505 Was it hard for you to maintain that secrecy for so many years? 00:35:47.505 --> 00:36:20.000 It was initially 'cause I just saw a bunch of lies and they put it out as though I said—or Rolands, the wingman, or Middleton, the wingman of the flight leader—all having been in the area, but they gave them credit for things they never did and they never personally admitted that they did it until they got used to it. It sounded so darn good that they played along and abused history. 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:31.043 What were your interactions like with local cultures and the people you encountered during either your deployment in Korea or in Vietnam? 00:36:31.043 --> 00:38:02.315 Albeit in an aircraft carrier, I didn't have a lot of opportunity to see others. I was amazed and interested in the visit with President Eisenhower and his staffs and all in Seoul. It was such a battered city. They had two bridges crossing—the river goes through the middle of town—and they were both in the water. I went back and visited after that. They got 22 bridges almost per block crossing the river. And it's just beautiful. What an amazing change in the geography. But I do wanna' say that the Koreans—I can't believe this—have told me they think I saved their nation. And they have been acting like that. And their president came over here, and I met with him, and they presented me with their Medal of Honor. And I've just been inundated with visits from them—bringing presents, and invited me to the consul in Los Angeles, and the consul general's become a friend. I visited their ships. And it's been amazing. 00:38:02.315 --> 00:38:12.704 What kind of friendships and comradery did you form while serving in Korea or in Vietnam, and with whom? 00:38:12.704 --> 00:38:53.014 With the personnel on the ships I was on, primarily your own squadron. You have a ready room, which is the enclosure with seats and briefing materials and whatnot, where you ready yourself for flight. And actually, otherwise, it's sort of a central for that squadron, and people spend a fair amount of time there. Sometimes in the evening you have a movie and so that's kinda' home base outside of your quarters. 00:38:53.014 --> 00:38:58.304 What did you do for recreation when you were off duty? 00:38:58.304 --> 00:39:21.605 Volleyball, running, maybe a little sunbathing—very little. Some reading, some studies, some—you have other assignments besides flying, So you have to pay attention to that as well. 00:39:21.605 --> 00:39:29.824 Do you recall any particularly humorous or unusual events while on shift? 00:39:29.824 --> 00:40:34.364 Found to be a bunch of them (laughs). Well it's—our pilots get shot down, and if they're rescued, they eventually go by way of another ship and then used breeches buoy, which is a sort of a seat that you get on and have wires connecting two ships and you spin and you can send this little trolley thing with the chair back and forth to send supplies or people. And in a big storm, while they're doing that, the ships come together. Sometimes that close without engaging one another (Williams extends arms in front of himself). But that makes that line instead of taught go down like this (lowers arms). The people often get dipped in the ocean and then come snap it back out of it (raises arms). It's kind of an interesting drill. 00:40:34.364 --> 00:40:38.085 Was there something that you did for good luck? 00:40:38.085 --> 00:40:58.085 No, pray! I am religious and I give credit—I should not have survived that incident, but I did—and I did it with other outside help. God was with me. 00:40:58.085 --> 00:41:06.925 Do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you when your service ended? 00:41:06.925 --> 00:43:59.045 In San Diego, I had had a plane crash where I broke 11 vertebrae. I continued to serve and fly, but the medical department made exceptions in my case to where I was authorized certain medications that I should not have been taking and flying. And as time went on and I would indicate need for more help, they would increase it. And I got to a point of a ridiculous amount. And then the flight surgeon, when I came back from our first tour in Vietnam, talked to his friend who was the leader of the medical department at Pensacola, Florida. And they were so surprised they ordered me to go back to Pensacola for an evaluation. Well, during that they said everything is doable. For instance, thyroid normalcy is around two grains. They had me on five and a half grains a day. And they said, no, it's normal. Just stop taking it. Well, there were results. My hair's falling out, I'm just weary. I'm flying day and night off the carrier. And the results of that study was studied in Washington at the Bureau of Navy Medicine and Surgery. They said, this can't be. So, they got the Bureau of Personnel to give me new orders that you authorize for flight in combat, at sea, down at the actual command—at the actual controls. Why is the wing commander, for heaven's sake? I said, How do I run a wing in combat not flying? So I sent myself to the school for the rear seat—the naval flight officer, we call 'em now—now we have their old set of wings and so forth. At that time, it was so early in the game that we were using the wings that were also used for enlisted flight crew. But as time went on, I was a primary player in getting that law changed that didn't allow NFOs (Naval Flight Officers) to have command. So for officers, NFOs, they'd probably quit at lieutenant commander. There's just no further promotion for 'em. Well, we got that law changed and now we have four-star admirals as NFOs. 00:43:59.045 --> 00:44:02.965 Did you return home when your service ended— 00:44:02.965 --> 00:44:03.000 Oh, ah! 00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:04.000 —Sorry, go ahead. 00:44:04.000 --> 00:46:14.405 So where was I? My physical problems were starting to make life tougher. I started dragging the leg and they sent me to the hospital here in San Diego and operated on me. And I came out, and they put me on temporary retirement until I got healthy. Then I got recalled in 1980. This was—I went in early, second month in '42 and then went out in the first of January in '80. So there was a little gap from when I came out of the hospital until I was cleared for active duty again. And meanwhile, I'd had a ship and a whole lot of very important jobs. I had two-star job on Admiral McCabe staff, who was the first Inspector General, CINCPAC (Commander in Chief Pacific Fleet). I was Chief of Staff COMFAIRWESTPAC (Commander, Fleet Air Western Pacific). A whole lot of pretty important stuff. But I came on back and was on COMATG PAC staff (Afloat Training Group Pacific) when I went to the hospital and they operated on me, set me aside, I came back, and I got ordered as commodore with amphibious task force for training. So I took a group of 20 some ships to Hawaii and that sort of thing. And I came back and retired in 1980, built this house, and grew 200 rose bushes. Spent an awful lot of time below the hill (laughs). 00:46:14.405 --> 00:46:22.324 How did you readjust to civilian life? Did you work, or did you go back to school, or— 00:46:22.324 --> 00:46:52.505 I got a master's degree in college. And I worked for a company as vice president of a startup group. And I saw that they had problems, and I excused myself, and said if they straightened out their operation, I'd be pleased to come back. But in the meantime, they went to jail and I did not. 00:46:52.505 --> 00:46:56.824 Did the GI Bill affect you after you completed your service? 00:46:56.824 --> 00:46:57.293 The what? 00:46:57.293 --> 00:47:02.445 The Montgomery GI Bill or the GI Bill for education? 00:47:02.445 --> 00:47:02.652 —Yes— 00:47:02.652 --> 00:47:03.474 Did you use that? 00:47:03.474 --> 00:47:04.755 —Yes, I used that. 00:47:04.755 --> 00:47:06.000 What are your thoughts on it? 00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:57.065 Excellent. Yeah, it helped me feel fulfilled. I didn't actually use the ability—I also, once I completed the business part of it, I went into law and I was working down near San Ysidro and leaving here at about five-thirty in the morning and getting back at ten and spending all day Saturday in my office reading and my wife bringing me coffee. And just—I said, Why am I doing this? And I had no good reason. So I didn't continue in the law business. 00:47:57.065 --> 00:48:01.954 Did you join any veterans organizations? 00:48:01.954 --> 00:48:03.025 What type? 00:48:03.025 --> 00:48:05.164 Veterans. Military veterans— 00:48:05.164 --> 00:48:20.224 Oh, yes. Oh goodness, yes. All of them. Yeah. Legion (The American Legion), VFW (The Veterans of Foreign Wars of the U.S), the DAV (Disabled American Veterans), and a lot of local groups. Mostly aviation oriented. But I have something almost every day. 00:48:20.224 --> 00:48:27.394 Did you continue any friendships after the service and for how long? 00:48:27.394 --> 00:49:09.545 Well, I was taken out of the circle of friends. When I moved out here, I formed a lot of friendships, became engrossed in the Homeowner's Association. Golfing. But as far as contact, when I learned to play the email bit, I stayed in contact with some of my military friends. But most have died, and I just now get spam (smiles). 00:49:09.545 --> 00:49:20.864 These are reflections. So, how has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:49:20.864 --> 00:50:56.394 Wow, you covered it all (laughs). Immensely! Especially since an admiral that I had served with the four different times, at a reunion came to me and said, "Hey, Royce, there's more to your story than you've told, isn't there?" I said, Yes, sir. And he says, "Well, do you know that it's no longer classified and you could talk about it?" Well, new world. What am I gonna do with this? Nobody knows enough to even ask me to say anything. So I told my wife and she said, "Oh, Royce!" (laughs). But eventually the word got out, and I'm nominated for the Medal of Honor. And that has spread the word. I'm busy with speaking, visiting engagements. You know, it's impacted it very heavily. As far as the church goes, I've been president of the congregation—active in there until I got so old that I don't do that anymore. I've been busy, yeah. I've been involved—when I engage in something, I pretty well go in wholeheartedly and try to find a slot where they can use me. 00:50:56.394 --> 00:51:06.114 What are some life lessons you've learned from military service? 00:51:06.114 --> 00:51:27.954 Outlook. Keep positive. Try to be happy. Don't get mad—you don't have any enemies. Never did. People wanted to kill me, but that was the government's business. Same here in my part. 00:51:27.954 --> 00:51:36.585 What message would you like to leave for future generations who will view and hear this interview? 00:51:36.585 --> 00:52:06.934 To take their responsibilities in citizenship seriously. And if you can find a way to contribute—and there are lots of ways you can—do something for your country. When you do that, you're doing something for everybody and especially yourself. 00:52:06.934 --> 00:52:17.514 How did you become associated with the city of Escondido in this north San Diego County community? 00:52:17.514 --> 00:54:31.735 1965, I was a waiting commander. My headquarters at Miramar Naval Air Station. And I lived in south Escondido and had church membership in the community. I had three sons that were all at home at that time before they went in the Navy and whatnot. And a lovely wife who was involved in Ikebana Japanese floral arranging. And was very good at it, as you can see her hand right here at home. And a good cook. And I had some guns and enjoyed shooting. So if I wasn't required on the job on a Saturday, we would often—she'd make a picnic lunch and we'd take some of our guns and look for a place to shoot. And I found hidden metals before there were any homes out here. Just a dirt road coming up. And I loved it so much. It's just—it's beauty. So, later on in 1972, I was on Admiral McCabe's staff in Hawaii, and I already had far more than the 30 years of service, and I knew I would be required to leave any day soon and had no place to retire. So wife and I came back—space available—and borrowed my dad's car and came up to Escondido—he lived in San Diego at that time. And headed straight up here once I got my instructions right. And there were only two houses but underground facilities, roads, and beautiful place. And so I bought some property here, which I built on later. And, so from the very beginning, they've had my fingerprint up here. 00:54:31.735 --> 00:54:45.355 Thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of military service. Is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never have? 00:54:45.355 --> 00:55:00.445 No, I've had plenty of opportunity to talk to groups, and I don't withhold anything that I think is of value, so it's pretty well out there. 00:55:00.445 --> 00:55:07.045 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 00:55:07.045 --> 00:55:37.474 That the very highest percentage of them are genuine, loving Americans that felt they wanted to do something for the sake of everybody in the nation. And that once they get committed there, it's the lifetime and they're an important productive part of community. 00:55:37.474 --> 00:55:52.155 In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 00:55:52.155 --> 00:56:23.144 Try and be somewhat organized but realize that there isn't much you're going to accomplish on your own. It's a team sport. Get to know other people. Some you'll find have a lot of guidance, maybe some provide opportunity. You're not gonna' do it by yourself. Have a family if you're so oriented. That's an important part of my life. 00:56:23.144 --> 00:56:24.635 Thank you, Captain Williams. 00:56:24.635 --> 00:56:25.635 You're welcome. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the &#13 ; creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.xml WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Williams, Elmer Royce. Interview November 8th, 2024 Description An account of the resource Elmer Royce Williams is a retired United States naval aviator, nationally lauded for his solo dogfight against seven Soviet pilots during the Korean War. Since his time in service, he has been increasingly recognized for his achievements. He was awarded the Navy Cross in 2023 and has been nominated for the Medal of Honor. In his 2024 interview, Williams described that transformative moment in his life and how it affected the Korean War. He also discussed his childhood, military enlistment, and military training. Approaching 100 years old at the time, Williams reflected on how religion, family, community, civilian work, and veterans' organizations shaped his life after service. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-074 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-08 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Elmer Royce Williams Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Marilyn Huerta Adel Bautista Subject The topic of the resource Korean War, 1950-1953 United States -- Armed Forces -- Veterans Air pilots, Military -- United States. Navy United States. Navy Air combat Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Wilmot (S.D.) Korea Vietnam San Marcos (Calif.) Africa, North Little Falls (Minn.) Ortonville (Minn.) Panama Soviet Union Escondido (Calif.) Hawaii San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Elmer Royce Williams License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience