6 10 182 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/24d0b5f1274c5333980a77f42e10980f.pdf fc3ce6202a3c7ec1f83a9311a0316116 PDF Text Text DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Riccardo Savo: Awesome. Alright, so today is April 5th, 2023. I am Riccardo Savo, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. I'm interviewing Dinah Poellnitz for the University Library Special Collections Oral Project. Thank you so much for being here with me today. Unfortunately, you're not able to have the video, so we'll just rely on audio today, which is perfectly fine. And I would like to begin quite broadly if we can, if you could tell me how you became interested in art and how you initially related it to the community or to community engagement. Dinah Poellnitz: Um, then that's like a childhood memory question for me. I'm from North County. My dad came to Oceanside Camp Pendleton in the seventies. I was born in [19]76. I think my dad came out here in [19]78 and we lived on base and if you know anything about North County during that time, it was like, you go to church, you watch sports... and that was it, you know? And my mom's from the South. She's from Louisiana and you know, my mom's about church and we used to go to church all the time. And my mom had a friend named Carla. She was like a wacky woman too. She was just elusive, like all over the place. She used to be an architect and she saw that I loved to draw. And so one day she just gave me her drafting table and I was, I could, I think I was like in -- 11 years-old -- and she brought all her materials and stuff to my house and I was just like, whaaaat? It was like a whole new world. I was just like, wait... there's a table made just for drawing? That happens? You know, it was like one of those moments. And I used to dr-- I wanted to be a costume designer, so I used to draw dresses and fashion all the time on that table. And I had a whole setup. But I just remember just being this little kid who had my own little like, workspace and, and it was just for me to draw. And I was like, wow, there's a, there's... you could do this. Like, this is not a like day, you know, day drawing at home. This like, you could really do this as a, like, as an adult. So yeah, I was maybe like 11 and it was Carla from Fresh Bread Church. <laughter> Savo: That's awesome. So, you began this at age 11 and did you carry this through to your high school? Because I know you attended UC [University of California] Riverside and earned your Bachelor's in art history. Poellnitz: Yeah, I did. You know, like I was a kid that always made my own. Like I made my own. I designed dresses. I made my own prom dress. I sewed it, I wore it. I was heavily into -- It was the nineties in high school. And so, my parents, my dad retired, and then we moved outta Oceanside and moved to Vista for my high school years. And... it was hip-hop era, so I was like into dance and music. So that was all part of art and expression. But I remember wanting to be in the art clubs and I was just like, I can't if that, if art club's about realism and like drawing like things perfectly, I don't have time for that. That's real. I was just like, I don't even, I'm not even curious to learn that. I don't wanna do that. Cause that's what art club was defined as in high school for me. Savo: So would you say that your engagement was more self-disciplined? It was more geared towards how you wanted to engage with it, or more or less, how you could find avenues to apply it? Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 1 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Poellnitz: Um, it was more intentional for me. You know, I like fashion, so I drew. I drew dresses and I designed a dress and I sewed a dress and I wore it. It was just, it was all intentional. It was like just being, it was an action, it was a language for me. It was... it was a skill, you know, I just thought very creatively all the time. Even when I was learning economics, I was thinking about it creatively so it can make sense for me. I think they say that artists are like divergent thinkers, you know? We always find or create and build and make an alternative solution to solve a problem in art. So that's kind of like that, that's a habit. Um, yeah, ‘cause in, in high school, I used to go dancing. I used to go to like, this is corny as hell: I used to skip school and go to the Soul Train and dance in Soul Train in High School. I was just expressive. It was a very creative, like moment as a kid for me being in high school in the nineties, like hip hop was like jazzy like baggy and like there was more Black designers like Dubbo jeans and FUBU and all that stuff came out. So it was kinda like a Renaissance era, even though I lived in, in a little North County and, you know, Blacks were a smaller percent of the community. There's like, that culture was just present when I was in high school. So me not wanting-- Me not wanting to join like the art club for high school and draw something perfectly was just like, eh, I can have fun. That feels like studying for economics. I don't wanna do that right now. I wanna enjoy creativity right now. I don't wanna study it. I was not in that mood. It was just a part of my life, you know? So... and then I used to go to LA every summer when I was in high school to get away from North County and stay with my cousins who worked at movie theaters. And that's when I was exposed to like museums and galleries and, you know, and I took a class at Santa Monica College and that's when I learned like, oh snap, you can learn art history? This is more interesting than like actually drawing the horse, you know? Um, I just learned that art had intentions all the time. Like I was, I was also like poor, you know? And I'm a, I come from a Black family, so to venture off into art, it's just like: you gotta make sure it makes money! My uncle in LA is like, what are you getting a degree in? Are you gonna be able to teach with that? I'm just like, hmm, I don't know, you know, and, but I enjoy it and I excelled at it. And like, I had a teacher, I took like Japanese art history at Santa Monica College, and I was just blown away by the history, like the political history, the social impact, just like everything that you see in art, like how it's a reflection of like moments of history or just moments of inequity. I thought that was very interesting how artists could use that as a language to communicate, to organize, to protest, to be expressive of what they don't like in society. So yeah, I loved art history and that was like perfect for me. Cause when I think about it, I was into dance and music, hiphop culture because it felt liberating. I designed and made my own prom dress because, you know, it gave me ownership. And those are like human right feelings. Savo: And speaking to that, about the ownership and the intentionality, your decision to do art history as a degree and as a major, was that a choice that you made? Was that a choice that you had made from Santa Monica to UC Riverside? Poellnitz: Mm-hmm Savo: OK- Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 2 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Poellnitz: It was intentional. Yeah. So I, when I was at Santa Monica, it was cool. I had a lot of friends and they were like all into politics. I saw Amy Goodman when I went to Santa Monica College. And so I had a lot of friends who were into like, the political and social justice part of education. And I was like, I wanna do art history. <laughs> I like it. I like pictures, I like reading-- images, I love that. I love telling, retelling those stories or using it as a form of communication. But I was like, I think I wanna-- I remember telling myself in our junior college, I wanted to have a gallery space. It was intentional. And I applied to all the schools that had the double major art history and art administrative 'cause I wanted to learn the business side and the admin part. I didn't know what I was gonna do. I didn't know I was gonna get the gallery, but I was like, “Hey, if I wanna work in a gallery, I need to have these skills or just to better understand it.” ‘Cause I have to justify going to school for art history, not just to my family but to myself. Savo: And so you mentioned that you wanted this applicability, you know to translate the skills that you learned in your degree to, to real life and to getting a job. Poellnitz: Yeah to a job--. Savo: Could you tell me a little broadly about your experience with that community engagement and, and political activism and how that helped formulate what is now, you know, the Hill Street Country Club because it's a great gallery in Oceanside and you don't really think about Oceanside being, uh, very cultural. At least you know, the North County, South Bay, in terms of San Diego County in general. But how did that come about? Poellnitz: Um, well I finished school, lived in L.A. for quite a bit. Played assistant nanny manager, like these jobs separate from what I wanted to go to school for because I was living in L.A and I had to learn how to multitask. And I took on like a lot of assistant jobs and one day I was just like, I was working for lie celebrities and like producers and stuff and you know, I saw how things were operating behind the scene creatively for money. And then I also understood the realities of like creating for me and the possibilities. And so, you know, I always kept a job and one day I decided, like me, my husband, we split [up] and me and my little kid, we moved back to North County and I still had my L.A job. So, I was still commuting like three to four times a week from Vista to L.A for my job. Cause they paid me well. But I decided to start volunteering at the Oceanside Museum of Art and their education department, but they didn't have one yet. So, I ended up volunteering with the proprietors. I learned about installation at Oceanside Museum of Art and I was still, I still had my like feet in two different worlds. I was still in the L.A world, but also in my hometown world. I did work at Patricia Korea Gallery in Santa Monica, and that was a very eye-opening experience at the<inaudible>was in college. Just, she was like the only woman of color, like gallery owner. And she only represented brown artists at the time, which was very <inaudible> in Santa Monica. Well, but inequity in like the gallery world when I was in college with that job, I would apply to like the Getty and all types of museums when I lived in L.A. with my friends. But my friends would always get the job even though I had a better CV than them. You know you just accept it. And so I just went back to like doing assistant work and then I decided, I was like, you know what, like I'm gonna lean a little heavy. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 3 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Like now that I'm back in Vista, I'm gonna lean in a little bit more in North County and invest more of my time there. And so that's when I started volunteering at OMA [Oceanside Museum of Art]. Then I learned about the infrastructure of the museum world because, you know, I always wanted to work in a museum. I always thought museums were an amazing place to tell stories and educate. I never knew about the dark side of museums, you know, like how they get art and how they flip art and also like the politics of like hierarchy and institutions, you know, I learned-- I didn't know about that in school. No one ever talked about that in school. We only talked about art history. But once I started volunteering and then turned into a paid position at Oceanside Museum of Art, I learned about institutions really quickly, and I also learned not just about art institutions, but I also learned about like civic engagement and city planning because, I still had my, my foot in L.A so I was used to going to galleries and museums and seeing public art, having friends who got paid as full-time artists or had very creative jobs. I know what's possible. And so, you know, being back home, I just like, “okay, why don't we have public art again." And then I had to like learn beyond what school taught me through experiences. Like, oh, public art is political and it's not, political is a message, it's political because you have to politically know how to create a system so that there can be public arts, right? At the time OMA, no one knew Oceanside Museum of Art exists. You know, 12 years ago no one knew. I didn't even know. I like googled and like looked for art spaces and I somehow, and only because I was intentionally looking for art space in North County, close to home, I found it. But it wasn't like it was vibrant and it was attracting people like me and they should be attracting people like me for living in LA and loving art. I didn't know it exists out of Google art spaces in North County. And that's how Oceanside using a popped up. And I noticed that they didn't have an education department. They had Julia Fister who was volunteering for the education department that she created as a volunteer because she had a big grant with Target to make sure every fifth grader goes to the museum. But she didn't have a office space or studio room for education. It was like she just came and sat at a table and made it happen and fifth graders came. And me and my business partner, Margaret Hernandez, we just decided, you know, we were both in education and we did all the docent tours with the fifth graders and the, and the workshops with them. And we just like had a lot of community conversations with young people, people in middle school, so you learned about their like starting point to art, who in the, in the classroom who visit[ed] that day, who had more access to art than others. Who had materials, who been to museum. You know, you learn so much about the demographics and like, I'm sorry but the demographics were pretty like astounding when you see majority of the Brown/Black kids saying this is their first time. You know. Or you have students ask you if they could take home some of the like, crayons or pastels at home so they can keep drawing. You're just like, dang, kids don't have like crayons? Like how do you not have crayons? You know it-- Or kids asking like, or the one kid who's just like, who knows about art but like, how do artists even make money? Like kids would ask those questions all the time. How do artists even make money? Like what do art, what can artists do? You know? And those were conversations for me ’cause I was always intentional. I was just like artists designed your shirt, the artist probably designed like a machine that's in the hospital that you are using, artists design buildings. I'm like, art is involved in Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 4 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 literally your whole life. You just don't know it. And you probably could have more, but you just don't know it. Right? And so I just started asking questions about how do we get more murals? How do we get public art? How do we have art walk? And I learned that I had to like volunteer with like Main Street, like a commerce type of org, who had a relationship with the city to get extra funding for projects for the city. I had to learn about that dynamic. I learned about putting things on the docket. Like I learned how art was, wasn't just like creative, but it was also political and it was also like [it] required you to engage in the system to understand how to create public art opportunities. You know, it's just, we didn't, Oceanside didn't have an infrastructure for art. Like we've made a lot of improvement, but we didn't have an infrastructure, we had an arts commission, but it was it was in silo and they weren't funding anything and they were just meeting each other, talking about projects around town, you know? The museum wasn't engaged at the time. It was, it was treated more like a private gallery space than a public space. And it was, ‘cause you know, Oceanside Museum of Art is not owned by the city. It's owned by a group of retirees, you know, and there's a lot there. There's also the retirement culture that you have to deal with. Like when we started Hill Street, we were very engaged with our friends and our family and community members. And we worked with people who couldn't get a space or an exhibition. We worked with those artists and they brought their family and friends. Like, it was a gathering opportunity for people. It made sense. Savo: And how were you able to attract these different artists? Were these artists specifically located in Oceanside or were they spread out through across San Diego County? Poellnitz: No it started in Oceanside. It was our friends first. We grew like a concentric circle, if that makes any sense. It was, um, we fit Hill Street like artist, personal, communal, universal. And like this, if I think about how we grew as a concentric circle, it was very personal for me, Marj, to begin Hill Street Country Club because the museum was rejecting all our ideas and they were not being cool or like easily invested in education. They made it very hard for Oceanside Museum of Art to create an education department at the time. And so in support of an education department, because we, you know, we did those docents and we listened to young people. So I'm like, “you need an education department. It's necessary.” We supported Julia and her vision to make an education department for the museum. And we tried to throw our first fundraiser for that vision of hers. And the museum would say no to us. Like, we're like, “Hey, can we do a fundraiser for the education department?" And they're like, no. And then we're asked like, “Can we borrow some chairs and tables for a fundraiser?” “Uh, not right now. No.” And basically like we knew we need an education department like, Oceanside, if you're gonna have Oceanside Museum of Art and you're taking up the city's name and you're having fifth graders come in and you're getting grant money, you need to have an education department, right? And that's just common sense to us. And so we told all our friends the idea of having a fundraiser for the Oceanside Museum of Arts Education Department to support Julia. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 5 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 And one day I was like driving home to dinner to meet Margaret and I saw that the Link-Soul building light was on and they were having a gallery show. And I walked in there and I was just like, this is the art space? And Jeff, who is the co-owner of Link-Soul was just like, yeah. And I was like, this is interesting. I was just so shocked to see a gallery that had a show. And the next day I went over there and met Jeff, someone got him, and I introduced myself and I pitched our fundraiser idea. He, like, he said yes to me, to like using this space for free. And so that was our first event that we organized, and it was called “Open to the Public” and it was about, you know, the need for art education. It was a fundraiser for OMA. And so, we just asked all our friends who were artists in North County and then like people who I went to school with, ‘cause I was taking classes at Miracosta for fun, for art and asking teachers to support it. We had a big turnout, and we were able to donate to the education department and purchase art materials and bags for every fifth grader of Oceanside for that year that visited the museum on that program. So that was like the first time where we were just like, wait, this was successful. People are thirsty. Like it's not just us who want [to] have more like community opportunities, you know, with art. So like I said, it's like we grew a concentric circle because we started off very, it was very personal for us to do that. And then once we had our first event, we understood the like community purpose. Like, oh this is not just us, this is a community issue too. We want, we want more opportunities to do stuff like this and we don't have it. It was like, “I want more of this. Like how do we, how do we keep doing this?” And so me, Margaret, just because we couldn't afford our own space and I still working back and forth in L.A, we just did pop-up art shows for like two solid years all over Oceanside. And then we went to community art events or like art events in San Diego because they had more of a presence of art for us back then, ‘cause we weren't really doing much as a city. So, we would go to events and openings in San Diego all the time. I don't know, it was this became very like, personal and communal. And then most of our artists are like working class, queer, young, old, um, more vulnerable, you know, and to like, to all kinds of things. And so, like most of them never had an opportunity to have an exhibition. They like paint it for themselves or put their art in a store, but no one's ever invited them to do an exhibition. And we would just invite artists for exhibition. But it was a curated experience, you know, and a lot of it was just, we choose artists that, that we shared messages with. I don't know, it just became a very organic growth. Savo: This is excellent to learn about. ‘Cause I didn't know that there's so much underneath, in terms of the layering, in terms of structuring, in terms of networking that's involved. Could you just clarify briefly who exactly Jeff and Julia are in relation to the Hill Street Country Club? Poellnitz: So Julia Fister at the time was the education director at the Oceanside Museum of Art. And she was one of my- me and Margaret's mentor. She now owns Studio Ace in Oceanside where it's focused on youth and like art education, which is really cool cause she's in the valley. Very much needed over there. And then Jeff, Jeff Cunningham is a artist but is the creative director for Link -Soul, which is a golf apparel company. Their design team is based in downtown San Diego. And we share, we co-op a space with them. That's where we have our gallery. And Jeff Cunningham is a phenomenal artist. Like I Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 6 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 curated him for a show for Oceanside Museum of Art. And our friendship, just like it grew from like me being a curator and an artist and him being an artist and us really like exchanging ideas about social impact and how do we create an art space that's different, that's more authentic and doesn't have all these pressures to over-perform, be productive. And so like, it's natural. It's interesting ‘cause he said yes to us having our first art show at his space and then he ended up giving us this space for Hill Street. Savo: That's awesome. And since Hill Street has been open and been around in the community, how has the gallery become that space where it's not just the ideas or expressions that are being presented, but how has that space become a platform really, sorry... How has that space become a platform for activism? Because, you know, you noted in a 2020 interview with KPBS that art is a functioning tool that should transition off the canvas. Poellnitz: Hmm-hmm. Savo: How has Hill Street Country Club played in that part? Poellnitz: You know, it's so funny cause every time I get asked like, “oh are you an artist too?” Like,” yeah, I'm an artist, I make work, but I don't make it anymore.” I was like, I make, I build art, you know, I can build stuff. But right now, my art is Hill Street Country Club, and you know, it's, it goes back to college and me like learning about all like the social impact and inequities in the world through art history. It goes back to that. And it goes back to like, you know, artists are some of the most vulnerable people because first of all, you're not respected with pay whatsoever, ’cause you have to remember like, I knew I had to get paid to do this or I shouldn’t be doing it. I should be like a teacher or an engineer or a therapist. Like, you went to school for art and people need to get paid for that. So we live, we live in North County where there's, we were spending like 10 cents per residence on art funding while like San Diego at the time was spending ten dollars. So, and then also trying to convince older peers in the art community that they had to pay for admin stuff that we organized. And then thinking that everyone had time to volunteer because at the end of the day, we had a large retirement class that was in charge of the art community in Oceanside and Vista. You know, they didn't see the value of paying younger people to help them with the arts, you know, there's uh cultural differences. And that being said, you know, to get paid is not just like, to get paid is the equity issue, right? And then not only to get, you know, to get paid is the equity issue. And if you're like Black and people don't even take you that, if you look at the museum stats and gallery stats for like, artists and like people who make it, you already know. You're like, you're dealing with so many microaggressions, you're dealing with some unresolved supremacy issues. Like I always tell folks like, hey, check this out. Like, um, it's okay if you're racist, I get it. You're not me. You don't have these experiences and you have to unlearn and I'm gonna give you grace to unlearn, but I'm always gonna speak up for what I-- what you Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 7 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 did. And I'm gonna not call you out, but I'm just gonna call you in and say like, “hey you know what you did was kind of racist could you not do that?” And I learned that was always like a threat to people when I was honest and like gave them grace at the same time. And I learned in the art community that they're not ready for those conversations at all. Or like, just to like unlearn and do better. So, but because I have ownership of my space and I don't work for anyone and I don't have a board that disagrees with my politics, I have a lot more autonomy than a lot of my artist friends or my art admins who work in museums and high-end gallery spaces. And so I get to embrace artists that are political, who are in the streets, who are organizing, who are building different collectives or opportunities for relief or whatever they believe in. I have a beautiful space. I also share my autonomy with them and I support their work. And because I believe in equity too. Cause I'm trying to get paid, I'm dealing with microaggressions. This is personal. Like what, what affects you is affecting me. And also, I'm like, I just don't like people being in pain. I'm an empathetic person. I, I don't know, I'm pretty radical politically, so I have to-- if I have my own autonomy, I'm gonna use it. I'm not gonna shy away from that. And the artists that I admire were doing that. It went that I was learning art history. They were telling a story, they was telling us how wrong this was and that was. Like, they're pointing out problems and they're doing it in the nuances of art. And I think it's very important for artists to tell those stories so people can gather and discuss and find solutions or to just build creative- what is it critical mass? No, I think it's critical mass is like valuable, once you learn it's not just yourself. It's like a Power in Numbers game. Savo: Would you say that speaking to it's a power in numbers game, do you think that that has changed your perspective on the, the personal communal and universal experience that Hill Street Country Club offers? Because obviously since it's opened, now since the pandemic 2020, do you think that it's become a situation where art more than ever needs to be more expressionist or more, um, as you say, it has to be more, you know--? Poellnitz: Yeah,- Savo: It has to be more- Poellnitz: It should be. It should be. You know I was just talking to my colleague Astrid Gonzalez, she is one of the Hill Street colleagues. She does all our audio-visual stuff. And she was reflecting the other day and she was like, “we really never stopped working during the pandemic.” I was like, we didn't, we couldn't afford to. We're vulnerable. We don't have board members with money. We don’t have-- like the reason why we can do all that we do is because we have people aligned with our principals who agree with us and who are not scared support what we're doing. But at the same time, to get paid in this art world, you gotta have some like, dirty person on your board. That's just reality. Like, you gotta think Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 8 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 money. And it's, that's just how it works. It's an institution. Like every institution in America has flaws, right? And during the pandemic, we stayed open. We were very creative of finding creative ways to stay open and accessible to our audience and to our artists. Cause a lot of my artists during the pandemic were dealing with poverty, food, needed food, like, mental health. The pandemic was messing people up in the first like two years. And a lot of my artists were affected by that. I worked with a lot of Brown and Queer and old artists, you know, and in this economy, they were suffering. And so, I had to figure out how to be a safe space and use my space for opportunities for people to get access to food or help folks get access to mental health services or even a distraction like coming, making art. I had to stay open for two and a half years during the pandemic, while a lot of big museums were closing and doing bare minimum because they didn't wanna get Covid. So, I don't know, my space has always evolved and adapt, because it has to. Savo: Speaking to- Poellnitz: Right now—Go ahead- Savo: Oh no, go ahead. Poellnitz: I forgot what I was going to say, go ahead. Savo: Speaking to the space having evolved, you mentioned that Hill Street became a space that allowed for those economic hardships of the pandemic, to kind of be alleviated for your artists. Could you speak about the political upheaval? Because we all lived through 2020 and we all know how painful it was during April, May, April through June of 2020. How did that come about? How was Hill Street a space for comfort, a space for expression? Poellnitz: Yeah, that was interesting. Cause like I'm the only like Black gallery owner in San Diego. And I've been doing this for so long that I, I belong to extended part of the San Diego art community that a lot of folks don't see in North County. Like I know a lot of people in museums and galleries and stuff like that. And I know a lot of people in City government and Federal government. And so, you know, during that time it was just like, this is when you make art. This is when you talk about these issues and you use art as a language and as a tool to have these community conversations. But also, this was also opportunity for us to do mutual aid. We went into care mode, like how do we care more about people? Like how do we care back? Like how do we take care of each other? Because during that time we know who's not taking care of us, we know who doesn't protect us. And it was more like being available to protect and provide care. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 9 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 I kind of miss those days. Those were the days where we were talking about liberation and how to use resources to create safe, safer communities. We were talking about solutions for the first time out loud as a public. We were sharing empathy with each other. I thought it was a beautiful opportunity for us to build something new. But it was also beautiful to see that we could be in solidarity. I had people who knew me in the business community of Oceanside, but never went to our events. Always knew what I was doing if I went into their store or their restaurant or coffee shop or whatever. And that was the first time a lot of those folks came out and donated to us. <laughs> You know, like checked on us. And I was like, “Wow, this is the first-time people cared about what we are doing over here. Like, this is interesting.” And I think there was a fear for a lot of folks like “I hope this isn't discourage her.” Or maybe I'm just thinking that in my head, I don't know. But I did see a lot of people come out the woodworks who started supporting us. And it gave us funding to create more programming and we kept going. So, I don't know. I was just adapting. I think that's what you do when you're in survival mode all the time. Savo: And since the pandemic, obviously the adapting to the circumstance and situation, have there been any local projects or exhibits that you've, partaken in or helped organize that reflect those changing structures or those change in activism? Cause you mentioned a lot about talking about solutions and you mentioned how there's this real need for concern for one another, this care for one another. Has there been any of these projects that reflect that? Poellnitz: Yeah so we got really involved during the pandemic. We created like a mental health like group therapy program for young middle school kids, “The Social,” and it was just like, we had a license. We have a licensed therapist, one of our artists, and it's like a group therapy through art, but also peer on peer because a lot of young folks were isolated from each other during the pandemic. And they're still coping with, you know the environment they had to live in, to stay away from everyone and not getting us sick to die. That's kind of traumatic. And then we're asking them to like, go back to normal real quick so we can jumpstart our economy. So we created a program, “The Social,” with the therapist for young people. And now we're gonna be part of the Oceanside Unified School District programming for summer, fall, and winter, I mean summer, fall and spring now. So we're now like, we created a program that's gonna be in the school system that provides mental healthcare for young people who need it the most. And then we just recently had an exhibition with <inaudible> Roca Gonzalez, who lives in Oceanside, who's from Puerto Rico. And they're working about all these social issues and we're coming together and recognizing we are a product of gentrification and colonialism. We live through it every single day. Like we have all this architectural vernacular that reminds us that we're all living through this. It's not just Puerto Rico, you know, it's everywhere. We're all surviving. I've been able to sit on a lot of committees and boards and be part of more equitable decision making for artists that I'm excited about that's gonna be coming out soon with the city of San Diego, helping a lot of like artists get access to money. That was like one thing that I did during the pandemic, was I did sign up on committees and boards because I'm just like, “You guys are making this process way Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 10 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 too difficult for people who have to work full-time jobs and take care of family.” Not everyone's out here just being an artist on retirement mode and can fill out all these questions and type all these like, letters of intent. You gotta make this more equitable-like process for like poor people with very limited time, you know? So it was part of a San Diego artist project that raised like $150K for artists in San Diego. And we made the process so easy that a lot more like trans and BIPOC artists actually applied and received funding to be a artist over the pandemic. That was amazing. I mean once I decided I was committed to equity and inclusion for myself, everything I do affects everyone. As a Black woman, it just does naturally, like we're-- The stats prove it. If you improve my life or if you improve my life in your surrounding, you benefit from it. Like literally, like if Dinah says she wants more vacation days, I work too much and because I, and I don't normally give vacation day. Oh my God, imagine if you give it to me, you're gonna have to give it to my coworker. Not everything I want, everything I need because equity benefits everyone. So I understand a lot of my personal experience or communal experiences and has universal like means that needs <inaudible>. Savo: And I was just curious, because we were speaking about these different programs and different committees that were happening during the pandemic. Before we jump back to the equity portion that I'm really fascinated to know more about, how were these committees and how were these programs organized? Were they all organized remotely? Were these children or these group therapy sessions that you mentioned, where were they held remotely or was there a creative space for that? Poellnitz: We did it at the gallery space every Saturday. Every Saturday. And our therapist had a baby. So, they're coming, they're gonna go back in the summer. They're gonna start back in the summer and we're gonna be at Jefferson Middle School. Last year we had a four-week social camp with them, with community artists and the therapists as a camp. And it was four weeks of campers and we had four cohorts of students and we're returning to that program in the summer. And we'll be returning with like regular art programming with Oceanside Unified School District on top of providing the Saturday space for the students again for group therapy. Savo: And I'm also curious to know like what kind of activities were these students engaged in when it came to the group therapy sessions? Because obviously this is a period where, it's a lot of, where social distancing was a very key thing and masking was also very important. How are these exercises or how are these sessions organized? What were these specific activities? Poellnitz: Well, it's so interesting ‘cause we kept over going through the whole pandemic. We, Hill Street changed its whole operation system to be more appointment-based. And we created capacities. We were very highly sensitive about Covid, like people had to wear masks all the time. We provided, Dr. Bronner’s used to donate tons of like hand sanitizer. Like we used to give like little packets out to people who came visit the gallery space. If anyone wanted to see an exhibit, they make an appointment. They would have the space to themselves for 20 minutes to visit the exhibit. And we wouldn't be in the space with them. We'll be like upstairs above where, you know, the distance, like it basically were by themselves. And then with “The Social,” “The Social” was like every Saturday. We had a capacity, I believe of like eight students at a time. And so, we have the space for people to spread out. And then Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 11 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 everyone had materials. I mean, it was really easy to manage. I think when people care for each other and they care that they have a safe space, people make sure they don't show up sick. People made sure to wash their hands. People made sure to keep their masks on. We did have a lot of workshops on Zoom. We had a lot of artist’s talks on Zoom. We had like – what is it called? We had AR [augmented reality] gallery exhibitions. So if you couldn't see the work in person, we recreate gallery space online, and people can navigate and look at art online as if it was in a gallery space. Savo: That’s really interesting-- Poellnitz: Yeah, we did a mobile art workshop. We got a grant right before the pandemic hit and we were supposed to have all this programming in every community center in Oceanside, but it was Covid and so we had to adapt, and 'cause they already gave us the money for it. So, we created a mobile art kit and like a lunch bag and it was like all the materials to like the perfect measurement and quantity that you needed for that project. We had our exhibition artists create a project and give us a list of materials for that project. And we used to do like a whole visual, like YouTube recording of how to create the piece. And then we did like a live Zoom and Instagram workshop, but anyone with a library card was getting mailed a mobile art workshop kit from us. Yeah so, we did a lot of organizing through the pandemic to stay open. It wasn't just simply being open, like we had to reorganize like our operations. We created an appointment system, we created more QR codes for people instead of like, there was no reason for anyone to touch anything in this space. People were able to pull out their phones and QR code and read like the show statement. And then we had Zoom workshops and people will get their MOD kits and you know, we did a lot of cool things on Zoom. It was fun. I don't know, you just learn how to care for people! Savo: What do you think was the— <Poellnitz and Savo talking over each other> I’m sorry. Poellnitz: Go ahead, no you go ahead. Savo: What do you think was the reception towards all these different restructuring and different outreach? Were people positive? Poellnitz: People were positive. People were very positive. And not only just positive, but our audience grew. We were more accessible to people outside of Oceanside. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 12 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Savo: Do you think that broadened the scope of Hill Street? Do you think it helped? Do you think it helps sort of bring a lot of those ideas and those concepts from the North County down to the South Bay? Poellnitz: Oh for sure. When I moved to Normal Heights a year and a half ago and people were like, “oh, you're here now. I'm like, yes.” And then just we love everything that you're, like, people from the arts commission knows what we're doing. Like I see a lot of gallery spaces and museums who are working with artists I worked with now. Worked with like five years ago, two years ago. I see the influence of our work on visuals. I see a lot of art spaces in San Diego, like institutions with bigger budgets, now creating visuals about their space. And I know we influenced people over the pandemic. They tell me and sometimes their programs look like it. It's wild. And it's like, wow. We did a lot over the pandemic while they sat still and they just watched us. Jeff always tell me, he's like, “you can't be mad if people are copying. Isn't that what you want?” I was like, “Oh yeah, that's how that works, huh?” Like, you influence people and they do the things you want them to do. Like have more like Queer folks or Black people or do more of this type of art. Like, oh they are listening, that is an impact. I didn't think about it like that. And he's like, “Yeah you just keep doing what you're doing. If they wanna do what you're doing in, see how far you can teach them, see how far they're willing to go.” And you know, that's, that's been like the best advice I've ever had doing this work. Because it's true. When you have autonomy and you could do whatever you want or say whatever you want, or stand by what you believe in, you have a bigger impact than the person who's quiet and not doing anything ‘cause they're scared. Savo: And speaking to that, that wanting to take initiative and be expressive. How does that coincide with some of the challenges that you were mentioning earlier about equity and inclusion? How do those two sort of intertwine with one another? Poellnitz: Dude, it's because it hurts. Because a lot of like organizations, a lot of people who do fund the arts are scared. They just scared of change. People are scared of change. And so there's always gonna be resistance. There's always gonna be the folks with resources who can like, jump like pounce on your idea. And because they have money, they can do it sooner and faster and get more visibility. That's gonna happen. It is exhausting. It wears you down, it discourages. Makes it harder for you to get access to grants or, or donors. But then at the same time, I've just been thinking about this a lot lately. Cause you know, Hill Street, we're at a point where I'm kind of exhausted, but at the same time I know why I'm exhausted and I gotta do things differently and I have to be a little bit more strategic now, like where I wanna go because I notice that a lot of people are watching us. And then people have a lot of expectations for us. And there's also a lot of opportunities for us in the position that we're in because of the work that we've done over the last ten years, you know? And especially the work that got highlighted during the George Floyd protest era. So, like I'm hyper aware and I'm being a little bit more wise about who I partner with. I'm being a little bit more wise on how often I say no because I was a person that never said no before. And Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 13 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 because I never said no, I got burnt out and not paid a lot. And I'm learning that me as a Black woman, my rest is very important, but it's also important that I have equity so I can get paid to do this work. So, I've just been thinking about how to slow down and sometimes less is more like I don't have to be over the place. I just need to be effective where I have intentions. So, it's like pulling back to that personal space has been going on with us lately. Like this being more local, bringing it all in, focusing on what we're strong at, getting into contract with the Oceanside Unified School District. Like that's a healthy source of funding for us. Instead of chasing donors who don't share our principles, I think artists and art organizers need to ask themselves like “Why are you here? What vision do you have? What community you belong to? What are your principles?” I think those are questions that anyone in the arts needs to ask themselves. Just be honest with yourself and if you could be honest with yourself, you should always know the choices that you're making. For me, I realize I wanna be my own institution and there's gonna be some hardship ‘cause I won't be conforming to a lot of institutional like practices. I will be creating new practices. I'm highly aware of the up and down of this art world for me. For me. And I'm honest with myself. So it's easier for me to commit, but because I'm honest with myself, I create ways that can sustain me. Like, I do more like art consulting jobs. I collaborate more with non-art, institutional spaces, you know? I work a lot more with community members who are in the political scene. So I understand like the fluidity of art. And if you're heavily relying on the same funders that fund the problem, yeah I would have concerns for the equity. But if you are creative and you know your worth and you are honest with yourself about why you're here, you always can find a solution. And because that's what's worked for me. Savo: And speaking to equity and how Hill Street has evolved over the past ten years, what do you think are some of the things that you personally wanna see for the Hill Street Club? You mentioned that you prefer more local engagement. You prefer being with individuals that are more like-minded in terms of art expression, in terms of inclusion. What are some of the hopes that you have for Hill Street moving forward? Poellnitz: I would love to have a community school. I want a community school. I worked for a nonprofit in City Heights and we worked with community schools that worked with juvies. They call them JCCS like Juvenile and Correction Community Schools. And they're like directly tied to the unified school district and the court system. At one point when I was heavily involved in politics, I was working with a former city council member in hopes of becoming like a divergent program for youth in the arts. So like, if a kid got arrested for the first time, instead of like putting them on probation and sending them to jail, you send them to like a diversion program. And the city of Carlsbad Police Department is the only police department in San Diego County that has an actual diversion program for youth. And so, you know, you get to be an organization as a choice for, for young folks and teach 'em all the skills, like how to create programming, how to run programming, how to make art. It's like a six-month commitment. I wanna do something more like that. I wanna have a community school. I wanna teach art the way that I experience art, the way that artists experiencing art. I wanna create a new institutional space for art Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 14 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 practice. I don't know, I just really wanna grow as a bigger institution, as a choice, as an alternative choice to other places. Savo: And obviously you've given a lot of thought to the idea of this community school and obviously diversion programs as well, such as Carlsbad's. Do you see potentially a branching out of Hill Street? Moving forward within not just North County, but also San Diego County as a whole? Do you see elements of what you've been able to create and to adapt with? Do you see any of that being replicated any elsewhere in the County? Poellnitz: Um, not yet, but we partner with a lot of folks in San Diego so we are very unique because we have to adapt. One thing you learn about our institutions, old ones, they can't adapt. So, when they can't adapt, they move slow. They struggle with adapting. And one thing about us, because we don't, we don't follow institutional like, uh wisdom. A lot of us are taking in diverse knowledge from each other, practicing being inclusive. And once you do that as an action, you can make decisions a lot sooner than later. And so we've been doing a lot of like partnerships and pop-ups with a lot of orgs in San Diego. I just want a community school. I want a community school. I want studio spaces for artists. I would like to have a choice for young people to learn about art and not just learn about art but have creative access to like a space where they can learn about the world and express themselves. Like I would like to have a community school. I have no aspirations to be all over San Diego County. That sounds like a lot of work. <laughs> Savo: Oh, absolutely <laughs> Poellnitz: And I worked with a lot of people in San Diego County. I love you San Diego, but North County is so special. Like us North County people, we are so innovative 'cause we've had so little. And when we learn something new, we master it because we don't have all the museums in galleries and big budgets that San Diego has or L.A has. So we are very mom and pop and DIY in North County and we support each other. And so, I don't know, that's the civic identity for me. You know, that's part of my civic identity. Savo: And speaking to this, sort of bring it all back in identity, the personal, the communal, the universal that Hill Street represents. Do you think that a community school would be a perfect foster for that? And I'm just curious about the age groups. Something I'm actually quite interested about, would this be open to not just middle schools, the middle school age range that Oceanside education part has worked with, but would you extend that? Would you put a limited K through 12 per example? Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 15 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Poellnitz: I don't know. I don’t know. That’s a lot of years. <laughs> Savo: It's a lot of funding. Poellnitz: It's a lot of funding. I know that the folk at Link-Soul, they run the Goat Hill Golf course in Oceanside and it's already been promised to us that we will build some type of like, institution space for a community school one day. So, we're all dreaming like what we wanted to have. Savo: That's awesome. And just before we wrap up our interview here today, was there anything that we had previously discussed or discussed throughout the interview that you wanted a little bit more emphasis on or anything that you wanted to touch base with before we end today? Poellnitz: I don't think so. You're fine. Savo: Awesome. Again, thank you so much for this interview. It was really informative, and I think it's great to learn about how art has really grown in North County. Because I'm from the South Bay, so I wouldn't know too much. But I think this was a great experience and I thank you a lot for that. Poellnitz: Oh, thank you, I appreciate that. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 16 2023-04-24 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Poellnitz, Dinah. Interview transcript. April 5, 2023. Description An account of the resource Transcript of oral History Interview of Dinah Poellnitz on April 5, 2023. Interview discusses Dinah Poellnitz’s community engagement within the city of Oceanside through art. In particular, the interview focuses on Poellnitz's involvement in the founding of the Hill Street Country Club art gallery in Oceanside, CA. Poellnitz discusses how to navigate through the art community as a Black woman, emphasizing the importance of equity and inclusion. Poellnitz also discusses operating her gallery during the pandemic, and future aspirations. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dinah Poellnitz Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-05 Subject The topic of the resource Art -- Study and teaching Art galleries -- nonprofit Artists, Black Community Engagement COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- Hill Street Country Club -- California -- Oceanside Women artists Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Los Angeles (Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) Vista (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Dinah Poellnitz License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-025 Activists and activism Art and artists Black experience Community history History Department internship Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Riccardo Savo Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dinah Poellnitz OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PoellnitzDinah_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-05.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 SC027 Poellnitz, Dinah. Interview April 5, 2023. SC027-025 1:06:11 SC027 California State University San Marcos Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Art -- Study and teaching Art galleries -- nonprofit Artists, Black Community Engagement Hill Street Country Club -- California -- Oceanside Los Angeles (Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) Vista (Calif.) Dinah Poellnitz Riccardo Savo Audio PoellnitzDinah_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-05 1:|12(18)|22(4)|33(2)|44(5)|57(13)|67(4)|77(15)|88(4)|102(14)|114(6)|130(6)|140(4)|150(11)|161(15)|173(4)|183(11)|196(7)|209(3)|220(15)|233(1)|245(3)|255(12)|265(16)|277(11)|287(10)|298(7)|310(4)|320(3)|333(12)|343(18)|354(1)|366(9)|376(1)|386(1)|397(2)|407(17)|424(2)|432(13)|442(5)|454(1)|463(7)|474(1)|485(3)|497(13)|508(2)|518(4)|531(5)|542(11)|553(12)|567(11)|578(4)|595(10)|605(12)|616(9)|627(5)|638(15)|648(10)|660(4)|668(10)|680(5)|690(5)|701(13)|710(8)|722(3)|736(6)|750(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4344d88bc2e671e3ad4b1f4ea85cfba8.wav Other audio English 40 Interest in Art and How Art Relates to Community Engagement Poellnitz discusses how she initially was exposed to art at the age of 11, where she began to take up drawing through a family friend. drafting material ; drawing ; North County ; Oceanside 216 High School and the 1990s Dinah Poellnitz describes how her interest in art coincided with the development and mainstreaming of hip-hip during the 1990s. She mentions how she was drawn to the expressionist element that art represented. dance ; hip-hop ; Oceanside,CA ; Vista,CA 246 Self-Engagement with Art Dinah Poellnitz elaborates on how her interest in fashion and making her own dresses instilled her creativity in making art with intention. She mentions her time at Santa Monica College where she got to see firsthand how art could be used as a language to communicate, organize, and protest. art intentionality ; fashion ; Santa Monica College ; Soul Train 508 Art History and University of California, Riverside Dinah Poellnitz discusses how her networking in college at both Santa Monica College and UC Riverside helped to expose her to the business part of art. Poellnitz decided to double major in art history and art administration to learn what it means to operate a studio gallery and exhibit. Amy Goodman ; Intentionality ; Politics ; Santa Monica College 606 Getting a Job in the Art Industry Dinah Poellnitz discusses more broadly how she transitioned from her initial job positions in Los Angeles, CA to San Diego's North County. Beginning with the Oceanside Museum of Art, Poellnitz's experience in volunteering with youth led to learning about civic engagement and city planning. Primarily, she focuses on the challenges and inequities that she observed amongst Black children who had no prior engagement with art materials and what it means to be an artist. Hill Street Country Club ; inequity ; Los Angeles ; North County ; Oceanside Museum of Art ; Vista, CA 1196 Artist Networking in San Diego and Oceanside Dinah Poellnitz mentions how her idea to create the Hill Street Country Club came from the contacts that she developed with other local artists in Oceanside. In particular, she recalls an instance she met the owner of the Link-Soul art space, Jeff Cunningham, who provided her with the opportunity to create a space of her own. Art Exhibitions ; Link-Soul ; Oceanside Education Department ; Oceanside Museum of Art 1546 The Networking and Structuring of the Hill Street Country Club Dinah Poellnitz elaborate on the two primary contacts that assisted in her founding of the Hill Street County Club. Jeff Cunningham ; Julia Fister ; Studio Ace Art Gallery 1652 Hill Street Country Club Art Exhibit and Activism Dinah Poellnitz discusses the challenges in funding that came in comparison to other local exhibits in the North County. Specifically, Poellnitz elaborates on how the Hill Street Country Club's artists all share similar outlooks on the art industry and how their work is a critique of social inequities. autonomy ; inequity ; microaggression ; social impact 2017 Hill Street Country Club and the Pandemic Dinah Poellnitz provides insight to how Hill Street Country Club had to adapt to the changes brought on by the 2020 pandemic and remain open despite other exhibits closing their doors. 2020 pandemic ; mental health 2222 The Economic Hardships of the Pandemic within the Art Community Dinah Poellnitz offers an insight on the effects that the traumatic events of police brutality had on those within the Black art community. Poellnitz reflects on the general mood and tone of the Oceanside community during the initial months of the pandemic. community conversations ; empathy ; liberation ; resources ; solidarity 2448 Changes in both Activism and Structure Dinah Poellnitz briefly mentions how Hill Street had to evolve over the course of the pandemic, providing the creative space to assist in the mental health crisis that developed over the course of 2020. group therapy ; Oceanside Unified School District ; The Social 2724 Oceanside Unified School District and Group Therapy for Middle School Children Dinah Poellnitz goes into detail discussing how Hill Street offered children from Jefferson Middle School group therapy sessions to handle with the stress from the pandemic. She elaborates on the lengths that Hill Street had to change to adhere to COVID protocols with social distancing and interaction. cohorts ; COVID-19 ; Jefferson Middle School ; social camp 3065 The Community Reception to Hill Street's Restructuring and Outreach Dinah Poellnitz describes how Hill Street became a model of inspiration during the pandemic for other exhibits to follow. She offers the reception that Hill Street received from the local community for their initiatives with the Oceanside Unified School District. budget ; gallery space ; impact ; influence 3512 The Future of the Hill Street County Club Dinah Poellnitz provides the vision that she hopes for the Hill Street Country Club, primarily the creation of a Community School. While much of this vision has not been enacted, Poellnitz offers some of the challenges that would come in the face of creating a K-12 community school. bigger institution ; community school ; organizations ; partnerships wav Oral History Interview of Dinah Poellnitz on April 5, 2023. Video briefly discusses Dinah Poellnitz’s community engagement within the city of Oceanside through art. In particular, the interview focuses on Poellnitz's involvement in the founding of the Hill Street Country Club art gallery in Oceanside, CA. Poellnitz discusses how to navigate through the art community as a Black woman, emphasizing the importance of equity and inclusion. Riccardo Savo: Awesome. Alright, so today is April 5th, 2023. I am Riccardo Savo, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. I&#039 ; m interviewing Dinah Poellnitz for the University Library Special Collections Oral Project. Thank you so much for being here with me today. Unfortunately, you&#039 ; re not able to have the video, so we&#039 ; ll just rely on audio today, which is perfectly fine. And I would like to begin quite broadly if we can, if you could tell me how you became interested in art and how you initially related it to the community or to community engagement. Dinah Poellnitz: Um, then that&#039 ; s like a childhood memory question for me. I&#039 ; m from North County. My dad came to Oceanside Camp Pendleton in the seventies. I was born in [19]76. I think my dad came out here in [19]78 and we lived on base and if you know anything about North County during that time, it was like, you go to church, you watch sports... and that was it, you know? And my mom&#039 ; s from the South. She&#039 ; s from Louisiana and you know, my mom&#039 ; s about church and we used to go to church all the time. And my mom had a friend named Carla. She was like a wacky woman too. She was just elusive, like all over the place. She used to be an architect and she saw that I loved to draw. And so one day she just gave me her drafting table and I was, I could, I think I was like in -- 11 years-old -- and she brought all her materials and stuff to my house and I was just like, whaaaat? It was like a whole new world. I was just like, wait... there&#039 ; s a table made just for drawing? That happens? You know, it was like one of those moments. And I used to dr-- I wanted to be a costume designer, so I used to draw dresses and fashion all the time on that table. And I had a whole setup. But I just remember just being this little kid who had my own little like, workspace and, and it was just for me to draw. And I was like, wow, there&#039 ; s a, there&#039 ; s... you could do this. Like, this is not a like day, you know, day drawing at home. This like, you could really do this as a, like, as an adult. So yeah, I was maybe like 11 and it was Carla from Fresh Bread Church. &lt ; laughter&gt ; Savo: That&#039 ; s awesome. So, you began this at age 11 and did you carry this through to your high school? Because I know you attended UC [University of California] Riverside and earned your Bachelor&#039 ; s in art history. Poellnitz: Yeah, I did. You know, like I was a kid that always made my own. Like I made my own. I designed dresses. I made my own prom dress. I sewed it, I wore it. I was heavily into -- It was the nineties in high school. And so, my parents, my dad retired, and then we moved outta Oceanside and moved to Vista for my high school years. And... it was hip-hop era, so I was like into dance and music. So that was all part of art and expression. But I remember wanting to be in the art clubs and I was just like, I can&#039 ; t if that, if art club&#039 ; s about realism and like drawing like things perfectly, I don&#039 ; t have time for that. That&#039 ; s real. I was just like, I don&#039 ; t even, I&#039 ; m not even curious to learn that. I don&#039 ; t wanna do that. Cause that&#039 ; s what art club was defined as in high school for me. Savo: So would you say that your engagement was more self-disciplined? It was more geared towards how you wanted to engage with it, or more or less, how you could find avenues to apply it? Poellnitz: Um, it was more intentional for me. You know, I like fashion, so I drew. I drew dresses and I designed a dress and I sewed a dress and I wore it. It was just, it was all intentional. It was like just being, it was an action, it was a language for me. It was... it was a skill, you know, I just thought very creatively all the time. Even when I was learning economics, I was thinking about it creatively so it can make sense for me. I think they say that artists are like divergent thinkers, you know? We always find or create and build and make an alternative solution to solve a problem in art. So that&#039 ; s kind of like that, that&#039 ; s a habit. Um, yeah, &#039 ; cause in, in high school, I used to go dancing. I used to go to like, this is corny as hell: I used to skip school and go to the Soul Train and dance in Soul Train in High School. I was just expressive. It was a very creative, like moment as a kid for me being in high school in the nineties, like hip hop was like jazzy like baggy and like there was more Black designers like Dubbo jeans and FUBU and all that stuff came out. So it was kinda like a Renaissance era, even though I lived in, in a little North County and, you know, Blacks were a smaller percent of the community. There&#039 ; s like, that culture was just present when I was in high school. So me not wanting-- Me not wanting to join like the art club for high school and draw something perfectly was just like, eh, I can have fun. That feels like studying for economics. I don&#039 ; t wanna do that right now. I wanna enjoy creativity right now. I don&#039 ; t wanna study it. I was not in that mood. It was just a part of my life, you know? So... and then I used to go to LA every summer when I was in high school to get away from North County and stay with my cousins who worked at movie theaters. And that&#039 ; s when I was exposed to like museums and galleries and, you know, and I took a class at Santa Monica College and that&#039 ; s when I learned like, oh snap, you can learn art history? This is more interesting than like actually drawing the horse, you know? Um, I just learned that art had intentions all the time. Like I was, I was also like poor, you know? And I&#039 ; m a, I come from a Black family, so to venture off into art, it&#039 ; s just like: you gotta make sure it makes money! My uncle in LA is like, what are you getting a degree in? Are you gonna be able to teach with that? I&#039 ; m just like, hmm, I don&#039 ; t know, you know, and, but I enjoy it and I excelled at it. And like, I had a teacher, I took like Japanese art history at Santa Monica College, and I was just blown away by the history, like the political history, the social impact, just like everything that you see in art, like how it&#039 ; s a reflection of like moments of history or just moments of inequity. I thought that was very interesting how artists could use that as a language to communicate, to organize, to protest, to be expressive of what they don&#039 ; t like in society. So yeah, I loved art history and that was like perfect for me. Cause when I think about it, I was into dance and music, hip-hop culture because it felt liberating. I designed and made my own prom dress because, you know, it gave me ownership. And those are like human right feelings. Savo: And speaking to that, about the ownership and the intentionality, your decision to do art history as a degree and as a major, was that a choice that you made? Was that a choice that you had made from Santa Monica to UC Riverside? Poellnitz: Mm-hmm Savo: OK- Poellnitz: It was intentional. Yeah. So I, when I was at Santa Monica, it was cool. I had a lot of friends and they were like all into politics. I saw Amy Goodman when I went to Santa Monica College. And so I had a lot of friends who were into like, the political and social justice part of education. And I was like, I wanna do art history. &lt ; laughs&gt ; I like it. I like pictures, I like reading-- images, I love that. I love telling, retelling those stories or using it as a form of communication. But I was like, I think I wanna-- I remember telling myself in our junior college, I wanted to have a gallery space. It was intentional. And I applied to all the schools that had the double major art history and art administrative &#039 ; cause I wanted to learn the business side and the admin part. I didn&#039 ; t know what I was gonna do. I didn&#039 ; t know I was gonna get the gallery, but I was like, &quot ; Hey, if I wanna work in a gallery, I need to have these skills or just to better understand it.&quot ; &#039 ; Cause I have to justify going to school for art history, not just to my family but to myself. Savo: And so you mentioned that you wanted this applicability, you know to translate the skills that you learned in your degree to, to real life and to getting a job. Poellnitz: Yeah to a job--. Savo: Could you tell me a little broadly about your experience with that community engagement and, and political activism and how that helped formulate what is now, you know, the Hill Street Country Club because it&#039 ; s a great gallery in Oceanside and you don&#039 ; t really think about Oceanside being, uh, very cultural. At least you know, the North County, South Bay, in terms of San Diego County in general. But how did that come about? Poellnitz: Um, well I finished school, lived in L.A. for quite a bit. Played assistant nanny manager, like these jobs separate from what I wanted to go to school for because I was living in L.A and I had to learn how to multitask. And I took on like a lot of assistant jobs and one day I was just like, I was working for lie celebrities and like producers and stuff and you know, I saw how things were operating behind the scene creatively for money. And then I also understood the realities of like creating for me and the possibilities. And so, you know, I always kept a job and one day I decided, like me, my husband, we split [up] and me and my little kid, we moved back to North County and I still had my L.A job. So, I was still commuting like three to four times a week from Vista to L.A for my job. Cause they paid me well. But I decided to start volunteering at the Oceanside Museum of Art and their education department, but they didn&#039 ; t have one yet. So, I ended up volunteering with the proprietors. I learned about installation at Oceanside Museum of Art and I was still, I still had my like feet in two different worlds. I was still in the L.A world, but also in my hometown world. I did work at Patricia Korea Gallery in Santa Monica, and that was a very eye-opening experience at the&lt ; inaudible&gt ; was in college. Just, she was like the only woman of color, like gallery owner. And she only represented brown artists at the time, which was very &lt ; inaudible&gt ; in Santa Monica. Well, but inequity in like the gallery world when I was in college with that job, I would apply to like the Getty and all types of museums when I lived in L.A. with my friends. But my friends would always get the job even though I had a better CV than them. You know you just accept it. And so I just went back to like doing assistant work and then I decided, I was like, you know what, like I&#039 ; m gonna lean a little heavy. Like now that I&#039 ; m back in Vista, I&#039 ; m gonna lean in a little bit more in North County and invest more of my time there. And so that&#039 ; s when I started volunteering at OMA [Oceanside Museum of Art]. Then I learned about the infrastructure of the museum world because, you know, I always wanted to work in a museum. I always thought museums were an amazing place to tell stories and educate. I never knew about the dark side of museums, you know, like how they get art and how they flip art and also like the politics of like hierarchy and institutions, you know, I learned-- I didn&#039 ; t know about that in school. No one ever talked about that in school. We only talked about art history. But once I started volunteering and then turned into a paid position at Oceanside Museum of Art, I learned about institutions really quickly, and I also learned not just about art institutions, but I also learned about like civic engagement and city planning because, I still had my, my foot in L.A so I was used to going to galleries and museums and seeing public art, having friends who got paid as full-time artists or had very creative jobs. I know what&#039 ; s possible. And so, you know, being back home, I just like, &quot ; okay, why don&#039 ; t we have public art again.&quot ; And then I had to like learn beyond what school taught me through experiences. Like, oh, public art is political and it&#039 ; s not, political is a message, it&#039 ; s political because you have to politically know how to create a system so that there can be public arts, right? At the time OMA, no one knew Oceanside Museum of Art exists. You know, 12 years ago no one knew. I didn&#039 ; t even know. I like googled and like looked for art spaces and I somehow, and only because I was intentionally looking for art space in North County, close to home, I found it. But it wasn&#039 ; t like it was vibrant and it was attracting people like me and they should be attracting people like me for living in LA and loving art. I didn&#039 ; t know it exists out of Google art spaces in North County. And that&#039 ; s how Oceanside using a popped up. And I noticed that they didn&#039 ; t have an education department. They had Julia Fister who was volunteering for the education department that she created as a volunteer because she had a big grant with Target to make sure every fifth grader goes to the museum. But she didn&#039 ; t have a office space or studio room for education. It was like she just came and sat at a table and made it happen and fifth graders came. And me and my business partner, Margaret Hernandez, we just decided, you know, we were both in education and we did all the docent tours with the fifth graders and the, and the workshops with them. And we just like had a lot of community conversations with young people, people in middle school, so you learned about their like starting point to art, who in the, in the classroom who visit[ed] that day, who had more access to art than others. Who had materials, who been to museum. You know, you learn so much about the demographics and like, I&#039 ; m sorry but the demographics were pretty like astounding when you see majority of the Brown/Black kids saying this is their first time. You know. Or you have students ask you if they could take home some of the like, crayons or pastels at home so they can keep drawing. You&#039 ; re just like, dang, kids don&#039 ; t have like crayons? Like how do you not have crayons? You know it-- Or kids asking like, or the one kid who&#039 ; s just like, who knows about art but like, how do artists even make money? Like kids would ask those questions all the time. How do artists even make money? Like what do art, what can artists do? You know? And those were conversations for me &#039 ; cause I was always intentional. I was just like artists designed your shirt, the artist probably designed like a machine that&#039 ; s in the hospital that you are using, artists design buildings. I&#039 ; m like, art is involved in literally your whole life. You just don&#039 ; t know it. And you probably could have more, but you just don&#039 ; t know it. Right? And so I just started asking questions about how do we get more murals? How do we get public art? How do we have art walk? And I learned that I had to like volunteer with like Main Street, like a commerce type of org, who had a relationship with the city to get extra funding for projects for the city. I had to learn about that dynamic. I learned about putting things on the docket. Like I learned how art was, wasn&#039 ; t just like creative, but it was also political and it was also like [it] required you to engage in the system to understand how to create public art opportunities. You know, it&#039 ; s just, we didn&#039 ; t, Oceanside didn&#039 ; t have an infrastructure for art. Like we&#039 ; ve made a lot of improvement, but we didn&#039 ; t have an infrastructure, we had an arts commission, but it was it was in silo and they weren&#039 ; t funding anything and they were just meeting each other, talking about projects around town, you know? The museum wasn&#039 ; t engaged at the time. It was, it was treated more like a private gallery space than a public space. And it was, &#039 ; cause you know, Oceanside Museum of Art is not owned by the city. It&#039 ; s owned by a group of retirees, you know, and there&#039 ; s a lot there. There&#039 ; s also the retirement culture that you have to deal with. Like when we started Hill Street, we were very engaged with our friends and our family and community members. And we worked with people who couldn&#039 ; t get a space or an exhibition. We worked with those artists and they brought their family and friends. Like, it was a gathering opportunity for people. It made sense. Savo: And how were you able to attract these different artists? Were these artists specifically located in Oceanside or were they spread out through across San Diego County? Poellnitz: No it started in Oceanside. It was our friends first. We grew like a concentric circle, if that makes any sense. It was, um, we fit Hill Street like artist, personal, communal, universal. And like this, if I think about how we grew as a concentric circle, it was very personal for me, Marj, to begin Hill Street Country Club because the museum was rejecting all our ideas and they were not being cool or like easily invested in education. They made it very hard for Oceanside Museum of Art to create an education department at the time. And so in support of an education department, because we, you know, we did those docents and we listened to young people. So I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; you need an education department. It&#039 ; s necessary.&quot ; We supported Julia and her vision to make an education department for the museum. And we tried to throw our first fundraiser for that vision of hers. And the museum would say no to us. Like, we&#039 ; re like, &quot ; Hey, can we do a fundraiser for the education department?&quot ; And they&#039 ; re like, no. And then we&#039 ; re asked like, &quot ; Can we borrow some chairs and tables for a fundraiser?&quot ; &quot ; Uh, not right now. No.&quot ; And basically like we knew we need an education department like, Oceanside, if you&#039 ; re gonna have Oceanside Museum of Art and you&#039 ; re taking up the city&#039 ; s name and you&#039 ; re having fifth graders come in and you&#039 ; re getting grant money, you need to have an education department, right? And that&#039 ; s just common sense to us. And so we told all our friends the idea of having a fundraiser for the Oceanside Museum of Arts Education Department to support Julia. And one day I was like driving home to dinner to meet Margaret and I saw that the Link-Soul building light was on and they were having a gallery show. And I walked in there and I was just like, this is the art space? And Jeff, who is the co-owner of Link-Soul was just like, yeah. And I was like, this is interesting. I was just so shocked to see a gallery that had a show. And the next day I went over there and met Jeff, someone got him, and I introduced myself and I pitched our fundraiser idea. He, like, he said yes to me, to like using this space for free. And so that was our first event that we organized, and it was called &quot ; Open to the Public&quot ; and it was about, you know, the need for art education. It was a fundraiser for OMA. And so, we just asked all our friends who were artists in North County and then like people who I went to school with, &#039 ; cause I was taking classes at Miracosta for fun, for art and asking teachers to support it. We had a big turnout, and we were able to donate to the education department and purchase art materials and bags for every fifth grader of Oceanside for that year that visited the museum on that program. So that was like the first time where we were just like, wait, this was successful. People are thirsty. Like it&#039 ; s not just us who want [to] have more like community opportunities, you know, with art. So like I said, it&#039 ; s like we grew a concentric circle because we started off very, it was very personal for us to do that. And then once we had our first event, we understood the like community purpose. Like, oh this is not just us, this is a community issue too. We want, we want more opportunities to do stuff like this and we don&#039 ; t have it. It was like, &quot ; I want more of this. Like how do we, how do we keep doing this?&quot ; And so me, Margaret, just because we couldn&#039 ; t afford our own space and I still working back and forth in L.A, we just did pop-up art shows for like two solid years all over Oceanside. And then we went to community art events or like art events in San Diego because they had more of a presence of art for us back then, &#039 ; cause we weren&#039 ; t really doing much as a city. So, we would go to events and openings in San Diego all the time. I don&#039 ; t know, it was this became very like, personal and communal. And then most of our artists are like working class, queer, young, old, um, more vulnerable, you know, and to like, to all kinds of things. And so, like most of them never had an opportunity to have an exhibition. They like paint it for themselves or put their art in a store, but no one&#039 ; s ever invited them to do an exhibition. And we would just invite artists for exhibition. But it was a curated experience, you know, and a lot of it was just, we choose artists that, that we shared messages with. I don&#039 ; t know, it just became a very organic growth. Savo: This is excellent to learn about. &#039 ; Cause I didn&#039 ; t know that there&#039 ; s so much underneath, in terms of the layering, in terms of structuring, in terms of networking that&#039 ; s involved. Could you just clarify briefly who exactly Jeff and Julia are in relation to the Hill Street Country Club? Poellnitz: So Julia Fister at the time was the education director at the Oceanside Museum of Art. And she was one of my- me and Margaret&#039 ; s mentor. She now owns Studio Ace in Oceanside where it&#039 ; s focused on youth and like art education, which is really cool cause she&#039 ; s in the valley. Very much needed over there. And then Jeff, Jeff Cunningham is a artist but is the creative director for Link -Soul, which is a golf apparel company. Their design team is based in downtown San Diego. And we share, we co-op a space with them. That&#039 ; s where we have our gallery. And Jeff Cunningham is a phenomenal artist. Like I curated him for a show for Oceanside Museum of Art. And our friendship, just like it grew from like me being a curator and an artist and him being an artist and us really like exchanging ideas about social impact and how do we create an art space that&#039 ; s different, that&#039 ; s more authentic and doesn&#039 ; t have all these pressures to over-perform, be productive. And so like, it&#039 ; s natural. It&#039 ; s interesting &#039 ; cause he said yes to us having our first art show at his space and then he ended up giving us this space for Hill Street. Savo: That&#039 ; s awesome. And since Hill Street has been open and been around in the community, how has the gallery become that space where it&#039 ; s not just the ideas or expressions that are being presented, but how has that space become a platform really, sorry... How has that space become a platform for activism? Because, you know, you noted in a 2020 interview with KPBS that art is a functioning tool that should transition off the canvas. Poellnitz: Hmm-hmm. Savo: How has Hill Street Country Club played in that part? Poellnitz: You know, it&#039 ; s so funny cause every time I get asked like, &quot ; oh are you an artist too?&quot ; Like,&quot ; yeah, I&#039 ; m an artist, I make work, but I don&#039 ; t make it anymore.&quot ; I was like, I make, I build art, you know, I can build stuff. But right now, my art is Hill Street Country Club, and you know, it&#039 ; s, it goes back to college and me like learning about all like the social impact and inequities in the world through art history. It goes back to that. And it goes back to like, you know, artists are some of the most vulnerable people because first of all, you&#039 ; re not respected with pay whatsoever, &#039 ; cause you have to remember like, I knew I had to get paid to do this or I shouldn&#039 ; t be doing it. I should be like a teacher or an engineer or a therapist. Like, you went to school for art and people need to get paid for that. So we live, we live in North County where there&#039 ; s, we were spending like 10 cents per residence on art funding while like San Diego at the time was spending ten dollars. So, and then also trying to convince older peers in the art community that they had to pay for admin stuff that we organized. And then thinking that everyone had time to volunteer because at the end of the day, we had a large retirement class that was in charge of the art community in Oceanside and Vista. You know, they didn&#039 ; t see the value of paying younger people to help them with the arts, you know, there&#039 ; s uh cultural differences. And that being said, you know, to get paid is not just like, to get paid is the equity issue, right? And then not only to get, you know, to get paid is the equity issue. And if you&#039 ; re like Black and people don&#039 ; t even take you that, if you look at the museum stats and gallery stats for like, artists and like people who make it, you already know. You&#039 ; re like, you&#039 ; re dealing with so many microaggressions, you&#039 ; re dealing with some unresolved supremacy issues. Like I always tell folks like, hey, check this out. Like, um, it&#039 ; s okay if you&#039 ; re racist, I get it. You&#039 ; re not me. You don&#039 ; t have these experiences and you have to unlearn and I&#039 ; m gonna give you grace to unlearn, but I&#039 ; m always gonna speak up for what I-- what you did. And I&#039 ; m gonna not call you out, but I&#039 ; m just gonna call you in and say like, &quot ; hey you know what you did was kind of racist could you not do that?&quot ; And I learned that was always like a threat to people when I was honest and like gave them grace at the same time. And I learned in the art community that they&#039 ; re not ready for those conversations at all. Or like, just to like unlearn and do better. So, but because I have ownership of my space and I don&#039 ; t work for anyone and I don&#039 ; t have a board that disagrees with my politics, I have a lot more autonomy than a lot of my artist friends or my art admins who work in museums and high-end gallery spaces. And so I get to embrace artists that are political, who are in the streets, who are organizing, who are building different collectives or opportunities for relief or whatever they believe in. I have a beautiful space. I also share my autonomy with them and I support their work. And because I believe in equity too. Cause I&#039 ; m trying to get paid, I&#039 ; m dealing with microaggressions. This is personal. Like what, what affects you is affecting me. And also, I&#039 ; m like, I just don&#039 ; t like people being in pain. I&#039 ; m an empathetic person. I, I don&#039 ; t know, I&#039 ; m pretty radical politically, so I have to-- if I have my own autonomy, I&#039 ; m gonna use it. I&#039 ; m not gonna shy away from that. And the artists that I admire were doing that. It went that I was learning art history. They were telling a story, they was telling us how wrong this was and that was. Like, they&#039 ; re pointing out problems and they&#039 ; re doing it in the nuances of art. And I think it&#039 ; s very important for artists to tell those stories so people can gather and discuss and find solutions or to just build creative- what is it critical mass? No, I think it&#039 ; s critical mass is like valuable, once you learn it&#039 ; s not just yourself. It&#039 ; s like a Power in Numbers game. Savo: Would you say that speaking to it&#039 ; s a power in numbers game, do you think that that has changed your perspective on the, the personal communal and universal experience that Hill Street Country Club offers? Because obviously since it&#039 ; s opened, now since the pandemic 2020, do you think that it&#039 ; s become a situation where art more than ever needs to be more expressionist or more, um, as you say, it has to be more, you know--? Poellnitz: Yeah,-Savo: It has to be more- Poellnitz: It should be. It should be. You know I was just talking to my colleague Astrid Gonzalez, she is one of the Hill Street colleagues. She does all our audio-visual stuff. And she was reflecting the other day and she was like, &quot ; we really never stopped working during the pandemic.&quot ; I was like, we didn&#039 ; t, we couldn&#039 ; t afford to. We&#039 ; re vulnerable. We don&#039 ; t have board members with money. We don&#039 ; t have-- like the reason why we can do all that we do is because we have people aligned with our principals who agree with us and who are not scared support what we&#039 ; re doing. But at the same time, to get paid in this art world, you gotta have some like, dirty person on your board. That&#039 ; s just reality. Like, you gotta think money. And it&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s just how it works. It&#039 ; s an institution. Like every institution in America has flaws, right? And during the pandemic, we stayed open. We were very creative of finding creative ways to stay open and accessible to our audience and to our artists. Cause a lot of my artists during the pandemic were dealing with poverty, food, needed food, like, mental health. The pandemic was messing people up in the first like two years. And a lot of my artists were affected by that. I worked with a lot of Brown and Queer and old artists, you know, and in this economy, they were suffering. And so, I had to figure out how to be a safe space and use my space for opportunities for people to get access to food or help folks get access to mental health services or even a distraction like coming, making art. I had to stay open for two and a half years during the pandemic, while a lot of big museums were closing and doing bare minimum because they didn&#039 ; t wanna get Covid. So, I don&#039 ; t know, my space has always evolved and adapt, because it has to. Savo: Speaking to- Poellnitz: Right now--Go ahead- Savo: Oh no, go ahead. Poellnitz: I forgot what I was going to say, go ahead. Savo: Speaking to the space having evolved, you mentioned that Hill Street became a space that allowed for those economic hardships of the pandemic, to kind of be alleviated for your artists. Could you speak about the political upheaval? Because we all lived through 2020 and we all know how painful it was during April, May, April through June of 2020. How did that come about? How was Hill Street a space for comfort, a space for expression? Poellnitz: Yeah, that was interesting. Cause like I&#039 ; m the only like Black gallery owner in San Diego. And I&#039 ; ve been doing this for so long that I, I belong to extended part of the San Diego art community that a lot of folks don&#039 ; t see in North County. Like I know a lot of people in museums and galleries and stuff like that. And I know a lot of people in City government and Federal government. And so, you know, during that time it was just like, this is when you make art. This is when you talk about these issues and you use art as a language and as a tool to have these community conversations. But also, this was also opportunity for us to do mutual aid. We went into care mode, like how do we care more about people? Like how do we care back? Like how do we take care of each other? Because during that time we know who&#039 ; s not taking care of us, we know who doesn&#039 ; t protect us. And it was more like being available to protect and provide care. I kind of miss those days. Those were the days where we were talking about liberation and how to use resources to create safe, safer communities. We were talking about solutions for the first time out loud as a public. We were sharing empathy with each other. I thought it was a beautiful opportunity for us to build something new. But it was also beautiful to see that we could be in solidarity. I had people who knew me in the business community of Oceanside, but never went to our events. Always knew what I was doing if I went into their store or their restaurant or coffee shop or whatever. And that was the first time a lot of those folks came out and donated to us. &lt ; laughs&gt ; You know, like checked on us. And I was like, &quot ; Wow, this is the first-time people cared about what we are doing over here. Like, this is interesting.&quot ; And I think there was a fear for a lot of folks like &quot ; I hope this isn&#039 ; t discourage her.&quot ; Or maybe I&#039 ; m just thinking that in my head, I don&#039 ; t know. But I did see a lot of people come out the woodworks who started supporting us. And it gave us funding to create more programming and we kept going. So, I don&#039 ; t know. I was just adapting. I think that&#039 ; s what you do when you&#039 ; re in survival mode all the time. Savo: And since the pandemic, obviously the adapting to the circumstance and situation, have there been any local projects or exhibits that you&#039 ; ve, partaken in or helped organize that reflect those changing structures or those change in activism? Cause you mentioned a lot about talking about solutions and you mentioned how there&#039 ; s this real need for concern for one another, this care for one another. Has there been any of these projects that reflect that? Poellnitz: Yeah so we got really involved during the pandemic. We created like a mental health like group therapy program for young middle school kids, &quot ; The Social,&quot ; and it was just like, we had a license. We have a licensed therapist, one of our artists, and it&#039 ; s like a group therapy through art, but also peer on peer because a lot of young folks were isolated from each other during the pandemic. And they&#039 ; re still coping with, you know the environment they had to live in, to stay away from everyone and not getting us sick to die. That&#039 ; s kind of traumatic. And then we&#039 ; re asking them to like, go back to normal real quick so we can jumpstart our economy. So we created a program, &quot ; The Social,&quot ; with the therapist for young people. And now we&#039 ; re gonna be part of the Oceanside Unified School District programming for summer, fall, and winter, I mean summer, fall and spring now. So we&#039 ; re now like, we created a program that&#039 ; s gonna be in the school system that provides mental healthcare for young people who need it the most. And then we just recently had an exhibition with &lt ; inaudible&gt ; Roca Gonzalez, who lives in Oceanside, who&#039 ; s from Puerto Rico. And they&#039 ; re working about all these social issues and we&#039 ; re coming together and recognizing we are a product of gentrification and colonialism. We live through it every single day. Like we have all this architectural vernacular that reminds us that we&#039 ; re all living through this. It&#039 ; s not just Puerto Rico, you know, it&#039 ; s everywhere. We&#039 ; re all surviving. I&#039 ; ve been able to sit on a lot of committees and boards and be part of more equitable decision making for artists that I&#039 ; m excited about that&#039 ; s gonna be coming out soon with the city of San Diego, helping a lot of like artists get access to money. That was like one thing that I did during the pandemic, was I did sign up on committees and boards because I&#039 ; m just like, &quot ; You guys are making this process way too difficult for people who have to work full-time jobs and take care of family.&quot ; Not everyone&#039 ; s out here just being an artist on retirement mode and can fill out all these questions and type all these like, letters of intent. You gotta make this more equitable-like process for like poor people with very limited time, you know? So it was part of a San Diego artist project that raised like $150K for artists in San Diego. And we made the process so easy that a lot more like trans and BIPOC artists actually applied and received funding to be a artist over the pandemic. That was amazing. I mean once I decided I was committed to equity and inclusion for myself, everything I do affects everyone. As a Black woman, it just does naturally, like we&#039 ; re-- The stats prove it. If you improve my life or if you improve my life in your surrounding, you benefit from it. Like literally, like if Dinah says she wants more vacation days, I work too much and because I, and I don&#039 ; t normally give vacation day. Oh my God, imagine if you give it to me, you&#039 ; re gonna have to give it to my coworker. Not everything I want, everything I need because equity benefits everyone. So I understand a lot of my personal experience or communal experiences and has universal like means that needs &lt ; inaudible&gt ; . Savo: And I was just curious, because we were speaking about these different programs and different committees that were happening during the pandemic. Before we jump back to the equity portion that I&#039 ; m really fascinated to know more about, how were these committees and how were these programs organized? Were they all organized remotely? Were these children or these group therapy sessions that you mentioned, where were they held remotely or was there a creative space for that? Poellnitz: We did it at the gallery space every Saturday. Every Saturday. And our therapist had a baby. So, they&#039 ; re coming, they&#039 ; re gonna go back in the summer. They&#039 ; re gonna start back in the summer and we&#039 ; re gonna be at Jefferson Middle School. Last year we had a four-week social camp with them, with community artists and the therapists as a camp. And it was four weeks of campers and we had four cohorts of students and we&#039 ; re returning to that program in the summer. And we&#039 ; ll be returning with like regular art programming with Oceanside Unified School District on top of providing the Saturday space for the students again for group therapy. Savo: And I&#039 ; m also curious to know like what kind of activities were these students engaged in when it came to the group therapy sessions? Because obviously this is a period where, it&#039 ; s a lot of, where social distancing was a very key thing and masking was also very important. How are these exercises or how are these sessions organized? What were these specific activities? Poellnitz: Well, it&#039 ; s so interesting &#039 ; cause we kept over going through the whole pandemic. We, Hill Street changed its whole operation system to be more appointment-based. And we created capacities. We were very highly sensitive about Covid, like people had to wear masks all the time. We provided, Dr. Bronner&#039 ; s used to donate tons of like hand sanitizer. Like we used to give like little packets out to people who came visit the gallery space. If anyone wanted to see an exhibit, they make an appointment. They would have the space to themselves for 20 minutes to visit the exhibit. And we wouldn&#039 ; t be in the space with them. We&#039 ; ll be like upstairs above where, you know, the distance, like it basically were by themselves. And then with &quot ; The Social,&quot ; &quot ; The Social&quot ; was like every Saturday. We had a capacity, I believe of like eight students at a time. And so, we have the space for people to spread out. And then everyone had materials. I mean, it was really easy to manage. I think when people care for each other and they care that they have a safe space, people make sure they don&#039 ; t show up sick. People made sure to wash their hands. People made sure to keep their masks on. We did have a lot of workshops on Zoom. We had a lot of artist&#039 ; s talks on Zoom. We had like -- what is it called? We had AR [augmented reality] gallery exhibitions. So if you couldn&#039 ; t see the work in person, we recreate gallery space online, and people can navigate and look at art online as if it was in a gallery space. Savo: That&#039 ; s really interesting-- Poellnitz: Yeah, we did a mobile art workshop. We got a grant right before the pandemic hit and we were supposed to have all this programming in every community center in Oceanside, but it was Covid and so we had to adapt, and &#039 ; cause they already gave us the money for it. So, we created a mobile art kit and like a lunch bag and it was like all the materials to like the perfect measurement and quantity that you needed for that project. We had our exhibition artists create a project and give us a list of materials for that project. And we used to do like a whole visual, like YouTube recording of how to create the piece. And then we did like a live Zoom and Instagram workshop, but anyone with a library card was getting mailed a mobile art workshop kit from us. Yeah so, we did a lot of organizing through the pandemic to stay open. It wasn&#039 ; t just simply being open, like we had to reorganize like our operations. We created an appointment system, we created more QR codes for people instead of like, there was no reason for anyone to touch anything in this space. People were able to pull out their phones and QR code and read like the show statement. And then we had Zoom workshops and people will get their MOD kits and you know, we did a lot of cool things on Zoom. It was fun. I don&#039 ; t know, you just learn how to care for people! Savo: What do you think was the-- &lt ; Poellnitz and Savo talking over each other&gt ; I&#039 ; m sorry. Poellnitz: Go ahead, no you go ahead. Savo: What do you think was the reception towards all these different restructuring and different outreach? Were people positive? Poellnitz: People were positive. People were very positive. And not only just positive, but our audience grew. We were more accessible to people outside of Oceanside. Savo: Do you think that broadened the scope of Hill Street? Do you think it helped? Do you think it helps sort of bring a lot of those ideas and those concepts from the North County down to the South Bay? Poellnitz: Oh for sure. When I moved to Normal Heights a year and a half ago and people were like, &quot ; oh, you&#039 ; re here now. I&#039 ; m like, yes.&quot ; And then just we love everything that you&#039 ; re, like, people from the arts commission knows what we&#039 ; re doing. Like I see a lot of gallery spaces and museums who are working with artists I worked with now. Worked with like five years ago, two years ago. I see the influence of our work on visuals. I see a lot of art spaces in San Diego, like institutions with bigger budgets, now creating visuals about their space. And I know we influenced people over the pandemic. They tell me and sometimes their programs look like it. It&#039 ; s wild. And it&#039 ; s like, wow. We did a lot over the pandemic while they sat still and they just watched us. Jeff always tell me, he&#039 ; s like, &quot ; you can&#039 ; t be mad if people are copying. Isn&#039 ; t that what you want?&quot ; I was like, &quot ; Oh yeah, that&#039 ; s how that works, huh?&quot ; Like, you influence people and they do the things you want them to do. Like have more like Queer folks or Black people or do more of this type of art. Like, oh they are listening, that is an impact. I didn&#039 ; t think about it like that. And he&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Yeah you just keep doing what you&#039 ; re doing. If they wanna do what you&#039 ; re doing in, see how far you can teach them, see how far they&#039 ; re willing to go.&quot ; And you know, that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s been like the best advice I&#039 ; ve ever had doing this work. Because it&#039 ; s true. When you have autonomy and you could do whatever you want or say whatever you want, or stand by what you believe in, you have a bigger impact than the person who&#039 ; s quiet and not doing anything &#039 ; cause they&#039 ; re scared. Savo: And speaking to that, that wanting to take initiative and be expressive. How does that coincide with some of the challenges that you were mentioning earlier about equity and inclusion? How do those two sort of intertwine with one another? Poellnitz: Dude, it&#039 ; s because it hurts. Because a lot of like organizations, a lot of people who do fund the arts are scared. They just scared of change. People are scared of change. And so there&#039 ; s always gonna be resistance. There&#039 ; s always gonna be the folks with resources who can like, jump like pounce on your idea. And because they have money, they can do it sooner and faster and get more visibility. That&#039 ; s gonna happen. It is exhausting. It wears you down, it discourages. Makes it harder for you to get access to grants or, or donors. But then at the same time, I&#039 ; ve just been thinking about this a lot lately. Cause you know, Hill Street, we&#039 ; re at a point where I&#039 ; m kind of exhausted, but at the same time I know why I&#039 ; m exhausted and I gotta do things differently and I have to be a little bit more strategic now, like where I wanna go because I notice that a lot of people are watching us. And then people have a lot of expectations for us. And there&#039 ; s also a lot of opportunities for us in the position that we&#039 ; re in because of the work that we&#039 ; ve done over the last ten years, you know? And especially the work that got highlighted during the George Floyd protest era. So, like I&#039 ; m hyper aware and I&#039 ; m being a little bit more wise about who I partner with. I&#039 ; m being a little bit more wise on how often I say no because I was a person that never said no before. And because I never said no, I got burnt out and not paid a lot. And I&#039 ; m learning that me as a Black woman, my rest is very important, but it&#039 ; s also important that I have equity so I can get paid to do this work. So, I&#039 ; ve just been thinking about how to slow down and sometimes less is more like I don&#039 ; t have to be over the place. I just need to be effective where I have intentions. So, it&#039 ; s like pulling back to that personal space has been going on with us lately. Like this being more local, bringing it all in, focusing on what we&#039 ; re strong at, getting into contract with the Oceanside Unified School District. Like that&#039 ; s a healthy source of funding for us. Instead of chasing donors who don&#039 ; t share our principles, I think artists and art organizers need to ask themselves like &quot ; Why are you here? What vision do you have? What community you belong to? What are your principles?&quot ; I think those are questions that anyone in the arts needs to ask themselves. Just be honest with yourself and if you could be honest with yourself, you should always know the choices that you&#039 ; re making. For me, I realize I wanna be my own institution and there&#039 ; s gonna be some hardship &#039 ; cause I won&#039 ; t be conforming to a lot of institutional like practices. I will be creating new practices. I&#039 ; m highly aware of the up and down of this art world for me. For me. And I&#039 ; m honest with myself. So it&#039 ; s easier for me to commit, but because I&#039 ; m honest with myself, I create ways that can sustain me. Like, I do more like art consulting jobs. I collaborate more with non-art, institutional spaces, you know? I work a lot more with community members who are in the political scene. So I understand like the fluidity of art. And if you&#039 ; re heavily relying on the same funders that fund the problem, yeah I would have concerns for the equity. But if you are creative and you know your worth and you are honest with yourself about why you&#039 ; re here, you always can find a solution. And because that&#039 ; s what&#039 ; s worked for me. Savo: And speaking to equity and how Hill Street has evolved over the past ten years, what do you think are some of the things that you personally wanna see for the Hill Street Club? You mentioned that you prefer more local engagement. You prefer being with individuals that are more like-minded in terms of art expression, in terms of inclusion. What are some of the hopes that you have for Hill Street moving forward? Poellnitz: I would love to have a community school. I want a community school. I worked for a nonprofit in City Heights and we worked with community schools that worked with juvies. They call them JCCS like Juvenile and Correction Community Schools. And they&#039 ; re like directly tied to the unified school district and the court system. At one point when I was heavily involved in politics, I was working with a former city council member in hopes of becoming like a divergent program for youth in the arts. So like, if a kid got arrested for the first time, instead of like putting them on probation and sending them to jail, you send them to like a diversion program. And the city of Carlsbad Police Department is the only police department in San Diego County that has an actual diversion program for youth. And so, you know, you get to be an organization as a choice for, for young folks and teach &#039 ; em all the skills, like how to create programming, how to run programming, how to make art. It&#039 ; s like a six-month commitment. I wanna do something more like that. I wanna have a community school. I wanna teach art the way that I experience art, the way that artists experiencing art. I wanna create a new institutional space for art practice. I don&#039 ; t know, I just really wanna grow as a bigger institution, as a choice, as an alternative choice to other places. Savo: And obviously you&#039 ; ve given a lot of thought to the idea of this community school and obviously diversion programs as well, such as Carlsbad&#039 ; s. Do you see potentially a branching out of Hill Street? Moving forward within not just North County, but also San Diego County as a whole? Do you see elements of what you&#039 ; ve been able to create and to adapt with? Do you see any of that being replicated any elsewhere in the County? Poellnitz: Um, not yet, but we partner with a lot of folks in San Diego so we are very unique because we have to adapt. One thing you learn about our institutions, old ones, they can&#039 ; t adapt. So, when they can&#039 ; t adapt, they move slow. They struggle with adapting. And one thing about us, because we don&#039 ; t, we don&#039 ; t follow institutional like, uh wisdom. A lot of us are taking in diverse knowledge from each other, practicing being inclusive. And once you do that as an action, you can make decisions a lot sooner than later. And so we&#039 ; ve been doing a lot of like partnerships and pop-ups with a lot of orgs in San Diego. I just want a community school. I want a community school. I want studio spaces for artists. I would like to have a choice for young people to learn about art and not just learn about art but have creative access to like a space where they can learn about the world and express themselves. Like I would like to have a community school. I have no aspirations to be all over San Diego County. That sounds like a lot of work. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Savo: Oh, absolutely &lt ; laughs&gt ; Poellnitz: And I worked with a lot of people in San Diego County. I love you San Diego, but North County is so special. Like us North County people, we are so innovative &#039 ; cause we&#039 ; ve had so little. And when we learn something new, we master it because we don&#039 ; t have all the museums in galleries and big budgets that San Diego has or L.A has. So we are very mom and pop and DIY in North County and we support each other. And so, I don&#039 ; t know, that&#039 ; s the civic identity for me. You know, that&#039 ; s part of my civic identity. Savo: And speaking to this, sort of bring it all back in identity, the personal, the communal, the universal that Hill Street represents. Do you think that a community school would be a perfect foster for that? And I&#039 ; m just curious about the age groups. Something I&#039 ; m actually quite interested about, would this be open to not just middle schools, the middle school age range that Oceanside education part has worked with, but would you extend that? Would you put a limited K through 12 per example? Poellnitz: I don&#039 ; t know. I don&#039 ; t know. That&#039 ; s a lot of years. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Savo: It&#039 ; s a lot of funding. Poellnitz: It&#039 ; s a lot of funding. I know that the folk at Link-Soul, they run the Goat Hill Golf course in Oceanside and it&#039 ; s already been promised to us that we will build some type of like, institution space for a community school one day. So, we&#039 ; re all dreaming like what we wanted to have. Savo: That&#039 ; s awesome. And just before we wrap up our interview here today, was there anything that we had previously discussed or discussed throughout the interview that you wanted a little bit more emphasis on or anything that you wanted to touch base with before we end today? Poellnitz: I don&#039 ; t think so. You&#039 ; re fine. Savo: Awesome. Again, thank you so much for this interview. It was really informative, and I think it&#039 ; s great to learn about how art has really grown in North County. Because I&#039 ; m from the South Bay, so I wouldn&#039 ; t know too much. But I think this was a great experience and I thank you a lot for that. Poellnitz: Oh, thank you, I appreciate that. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PoellnitzDinah_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-05.xml PoellnitzDinah_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-05.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Poellnitz, Dinah. Interview April 5, 2023. Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview of Dinah Poellnitz on April 5, 2023. Interview discusses Dinah Poellnitz’s community engagement within the city of Oceanside through art. In particular, the interview focuses on Poellnitz's involvement in the founding of the Hill Street Country Club art gallery in Oceanside, CA. Poellnitz discusses how to navigate through the art community as a Black woman, emphasizing the importance of equity and inclusion. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-025 Subject The topic of the resource Art -- Study and teaching Art galleries -- nonprofit Artists, Black Community engagement COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- Hill Street Country Club -- California -- Oceanside Women artists Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dinah Poellnitz Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Los Angeles (Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) Vista (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Dinah Poellnitz Activists and activism Art and artists Black experience Community history History Department internship Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/72bced0e8ce919f692fcb5724a7d099c.mp4 af147ee29660d5f8bcd132dd6ae36054 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral history of Ed Labrado, November 17, 2025 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ed Labrado Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-11-17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Ed Labrado License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1a4cb10af909f7e8e036bfff8b99ea18.pdf 1257c47452e8b4197dc47150c62d1be9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Williams, Elmer Royce. Interview transcript, November 8, 2024. Description An account of the resource Elmer Royce Williams is a retired United States naval aviator, nationally lauded for his solo dogfight against seven Soviet pilots during the Korean War. Since his time in service, he has been increasingly recognized for his achievements. He was awarded the Navy Cross in 2023 and has been nominated for the Medal of Honor. In his 2024 interview, Williams described that transformative moment in his life and how it affected the Korean War. He also discussed his childhood, military enlistment, and military training. Approaching 100 years old at the time, Williams reflected on how religion, family, community, civilian work, and veterans' organizations shaped his life after service. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Elmer Royce Williams Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Adel Bautista Marilyn Huerta Justin Gans Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Wilmot (S.D) Korea Vietnam San Marcos (Calif.) Africa, North Little Falls (Minn.) Ortonville (Minn.) Panama Soviet Union Escondido (Calif.) Hawaii San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Elmer Royce Williams Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WilliamsElmerRoyce_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_transcript Subject The topic of the resource Korean War, 1950-1953 United States--Armed Forces--Veterans Air pilots, Military -- United States. Navy United States. Navy Air combat Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer, Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Elmer Royce Williams OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Veteran;Korean War;Naval aviator;Dogfight OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Williams, Elmer Royce. Interview November 8th, 2024 SC027-074 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran ; Korean War ; Naval aviator ; Dogfight Elmer Royce Williams Jason Beyer, Marilyn Huerta, Adel Bautista Moving image WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d6799d074d31395fe8b6205edd027f3f.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 50 Military Background Williams lists his years of service, branches of service, the highest rank he attained, and the wars he participated in. Navy ; Army ; Navy Captain ; World War II ; Korean War ; Vietnam War 0 76 Childhood Williams describes growing up in rural South Dakota, where he lived on a farm and worked in a grocery store. Wilmar, South Dakota ; rural ; farm ; grocery store ; World War I 0 136 Military Enlistment Williams describes his decision to enlist in the Army. He was always fond of aviation, and the military provided the best training. enlistment ; Army ; aviation 0 221 Military Training Williams reflects on his military training. Includes his worst experience, his first assignment after basic training, his views on instructors, his switch from the Army to the Navy, and his promotions. training ; bootcamp ; promotion ; instructor ; Army ; Navy 0 600 Adaptation to Military Lifestyle Williams describes the highs and lows of adapting to military service and mentions the wartime conflicts he was part of. World War II ; Korean War ; Vietnam War ; family ; military lifestyle ; stateside service ; wartime service 0 751 The Korean War and the Dogfight Williams tells his remarkable story about surviving a solo dogfight against seven Soviet pilots during the Korean War. Includes contextual details about the Korean War as well as descriptions of the political aftermath. Williams describes how some historians have written about the event. dogfight ; Korean War ; Soviet Union ; combat ; Washington ; Eisenhower ; Admiral Briscoe ; history 0 2141 Keeping Military Secrets Williams describes how difficult it was to keep his experiences secret in order to preserve national security. He recalls seeing reports on military events that he knew to be inaccurate or untrue. secrets ; military ; history ; censorship ; lies 0 2180 Interactions With Local Cultures During Wartime Service Although most of his service was in aircraft, Williams describes a war-torn Seoul. Shares stories of how Korean political and military leaders continue to honor him with awards for his service. Korea ; Medal of Honor ; Seoul ; Eisenhower ; culture 0 2282 Comradery and Recreation During Service Williams describes the strong bonds he built with members of his squadron. He also describes recreational activities, including volleyball and reading. comradery ; friendship ; squadron ; recreation ; volleyball ; reading ; religion ; prayer 0 2458 Injury, End of Service, and Return Home Williams experienced a plane crash in San Diego. He recalls how he dealt with the injuries that would eventually lead him to retire from the navy. retirement ; injury ; plane crash ; hospital ; San Diego ; surgery 0 2774 Return to Civilian Life After leaving the service, Williams gets his master’s degree and works in business. He describes his experience with the GI Bill, working in law, joining veterans' organizations, and keeping friendships. college ; business ; GI Bill ; law ; veterans’ organizations ; friendship 0 2949 Life Lessons from Military Service Williams describes life lessons he gained from military service. His recent nomination for the Medal of Honor has kept him busy with speaking engagements. He is also the president of a local congregation. He encourages people to stay positive, find community, and treat their civic responsibilities seriously. Medal of Honor ; life lessons ; reflections ; congregation ; president ; community ; civic responsibilities 0 3126 Involvement in North County San Diego Community Williams describes his involvement in the North County San Diego community, particularly in the city of Escondido. He also describes some of his day-to-activities with his family. Escondido, California ; community ; family ; Ikebana ; shooting ; home building 0 3271 Reflections on the Experiences of Veterans Williams wishes more people understood that veterans are kind people who serve their nation and are an important productive part of their community. He says military service taught him that life is a team sport. He recommends having a family and says family has been important to him. veterans ; family ; nation ; military service ; community 0 Oral history Elmer Royce Williams is a retired United States naval aviator, nationally lauded for his solo dogfight against seven Soviet pilots during the Korean War. Since his time in service, he has been increasingly recognized for his achievements. He was awarded the Navy Cross in 2023 and has been nominated for the Medal of Honor. In his 2024 interview, Williams described that transformative moment in his life and how it affected the Korean War. He also discussed his childhood, military enlistment, and military training. Approaching 100 years old at the time, Williams reflected on how religion, family, community, civilian work, and veterans' organizations shaped his life after service. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:50.774 My name is Jason Beyer, and I'm a graduate of California State University San Marcos. Today I will be interviewing Elmer Royce Williams. Today's date is Friday, November 8, 2024. The general location where this interview is being conducted is at the Williams residence in Escondido, California. My relationship to the interviewee is that we are both military veterans. The names of the people attending this interview include Marilyn Huerta ; camera operator, Adel Bautista ; Jason Beyer, the interviewer ; Elmer Royce Williams, the interviewee. And the purpose of this interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your full name. 00:00:50.774 --> 00:00:53.435 Elmer Royce Williams. 00:00:53.435 --> 00:00:56.045 What branch of service you were in? 00:00:56.045 --> 00:01:04.474 I started in the Army for a couple years, then I went into the Navy. I served 37 years. 00:01:04.474 --> 00:01:07.204 What was the highest rank that you attained? 00:01:07.204 --> 00:01:10.394 Navy Captain O-6. 00:01:10.394 --> 00:01:13.185 What war or conflicts were you a part of? 00:01:13.185 --> 00:01:16.545 World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. 00:01:16.545 --> 00:01:23.265 That's the easiest part of this interview. Now it's time for the questions. Where were you born? 00:01:23.265 --> 00:01:29.075 Wilmot, South Dakota in 1925. 00:01:29.075 --> 00:01:33.385 Does your family have any past affiliations with the military? 00:01:33.385 --> 00:01:45.745 My father was in World War I. My brother was in the same wars that I was. He retired as a Marine Colonel. 00:01:45.745 --> 00:01:50.504 Did you hold any jobs before entering the military? 00:01:50.504 --> 00:02:00.715 Yes, uh, I was in a rural area and I worked on farms. My father was a grocer, and I worked in the store. 00:02:00.715 --> 00:02:06.734 What was it like for you working in the store and growing up on a farm? 00:02:06.734 --> 00:02:16.645 Well, I think it was the standard of the day. And, it suited me. 00:02:16.645 --> 00:02:21.995 When and why did you choose to join the military? 00:02:21.995 --> 00:02:53.555 My first airplane ride was when I was four years old. I was enthused and my dreams—well, this brought me toward aviation. And, in those days, the best organized, publicized aviation was military. And I sort of switched my dreams in that direction. 00:02:53.555 --> 00:02:56.254 Did you—were you drafted or did you enlist? 00:02:56.254 --> 00:03:01.324 I enlisted when I was 16. 00:03:01.324 --> 00:03:05.925 And which branch did you enter, and why did you choose that branch? 00:03:05.925 --> 00:03:42.064 Army. And primarily it was National Guard that was nationalized. I had two cousins in it. They deployed to North Africa. My two cousins were killed. I didn't go because of my age, I think. So I continued to serve and I trained and spent time in Camp Ripley in Little Falls, Minnesota. 00:03:42.064 --> 00:03:50.224 The earlier days of service. For your earlier days of service, what type of training or school did you have? 00:03:50.224 --> 00:04:15.034 Primarily infantry training. Rifle range, cross country marches. And I was trained as a drill instructor, which came in handy for the unit I was attached to. 00:04:15.034 --> 00:04:27.824 What was your most vivid memory? Both best and worst parts of your time in training or in school. 00:04:27.824 --> 00:05:09.653 Well, I'll say interesting. We had a cross country toward dusk and it took us through some of the lakes and ponds in Minnesota and swarmed with mosquitoes. In that it was night, we had to orient our maps with a flashlight but not be seen. So I took my poncho, put it over my head, and studied the map. Trapped about 30 some mosquitoes when I did that. And that was unpleasant. 00:05:09.653 --> 00:05:12.425 So that was probably—I would say—your worst part of the training. 00:05:12.425 --> 00:05:16.584 Yeah, that was (laughs). 00:05:16.584 --> 00:05:21.694 What was your first assignment after basic training? 00:05:21.694 --> 00:05:54.653 The unit that was located at Ortonville, Minnesota. It's, uh, at the south tip of Big Stone Lake, which is 36 miles long and is a prominent part of the western border of Minnesota. It comes straight up from Iowa, and it hits Big Stone Lake and makes a jog. 00:05:54.653 --> 00:06:00.144 Do you recall your instructors while you were in school? 00:06:00.144 --> 00:06:08.795 Not by name. I'm not good at remembering names. But yes, I recall my training. 00:06:08.795 --> 00:06:11.605 Were they good instructors in your opinion? 00:06:11.605 --> 00:07:12.264 I thought so. Problem we had was we were on the rifle range with ammunition from World War I stored in Panama, which is moist and not good conditions. So we were advised that if we had a problem and it didn't fire—hang fire, we called it—to not open the breach but call the sergeant instructor. I had one that was poor performance. Pull the trigger and it fired, but the bullet landed in the grass about 10 feet in front of me. But down the line on the rifle range was a man that didn't follow instructions. And as he opened the breach, it fired and he lost an eye. 00:07:12.264 --> 00:07:25.795 Did you qualify for equipment such as vehicles, aircraft, radio, weapons? And if yes, what was the training like with that equipment? 00:07:25.795 --> 00:07:43.154 Well, definitely airplane. When I switched over to the Navy, I was in the aviation cadet program. And if I completed it completely, I would be on my way flying fighter aircraft off aircraft carriers. 00:07:43.154 --> 00:07:50.754 What was the switch like for you, and how did it make you feel switching from the Army over into the Navy? 00:07:50.754 --> 00:08:09.345 It's what I wanted. I wanted to be a carrier pilot, and this offered an avenue, and I was happy about it. 00:08:09.345 --> 00:08:17.024 Did you receive any promotions, and could you tell me about them during your time in the Navy? 00:08:17.024 --> 00:09:03.595 Yes, in the Navy I had sort of a head start going through bootcamp and was a company commander. And that followed me through aviation cadet training, as well. Because I was a corporal in the Army, I had training at, uh—gave me kind of a head start—And then in a long career I got commissioned, and I moved up the ladder in normal sequencing to an O-6 position. 00:09:03.595 --> 00:09:16.315 What would you say was the biggest difference between your enlisted promotions and your officer promotions? 00:09:16.315 --> 00:10:00.965 As an officer it was more wide-ranging at where instead of being a specialist, except for flying, was broad and personnel management. But records and maintenance training—many avenues and responsibility at a higher level—to where, eventually, as command of a ship it is a rather interesting and wide-range responsibility. 00:10:00.965 --> 00:10:08.865 What was the hardest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? 00:10:08.865 --> 00:10:11.835 Being away from my wife and family. 00:10:11.835 --> 00:10:14.335 Why do you think that was? 00:10:14.335 --> 00:10:52.565 'Cause over long periods of time, it left my wife managing three sons. All different ages, different schools. I can't imagine how she was able to maintain the driving schedule. And when I retired she said, "Okay, now you do the income tax." So she had a wide range of responsibility. And unfortunately, I would love to have been partnering in it, but I was gone so much of the time. 00:10:52.565 --> 00:10:59.125 What was the easiest part of the military lifestyle for you to adapt to? 00:10:59.125 --> 00:11:25.325 Friendships. Harmony. You're part of a team. You get to know and like one another. Trust. Lean on. Depend. And, um—I think all aspects of military are—you're working with teamwork. 00:11:25.325 --> 00:11:37.924 What were your interactions like with people you encountered during your stateside service? 00:11:37.924 --> 00:12:08.384 Well, it was a variety of things. Often schools—even if you were just with a unit—it is mostly training in the fighter business. We would train over in the desert to fire rockets and bombs and guns and hit the target. Coordinate with the rest of the team. Prepare for combat. 00:12:08.384 --> 00:12:14.294 During your wartime service, what wartime conflicts were you a part of. 00:12:14.294 --> 00:12:31.294 World War II—I didn't actually get shot at by enemy—uh, Korea, Vietnam. I was rather heavily involved in those wars. 00:12:31.294 --> 00:12:36.365 Where and when did you serve in the Korean conflict? 00:12:36.365 --> 00:13:11.705 1952-53 on an aircraft carrier normally operating at the 38th parallel in support of ground forces and destruction of enemy logistics, trains, trucks, ox carts. But of course, air support for our fighters on the ground. Except for one novel incident that I got involved in. 00:13:11.705 --> 00:13:14.995 Do you care discussing that incident? 00:13:14.995 --> 00:29:24.605 Sure. Admiral (Joseph) Jocko Clark was Task Force 77, which was on site on the USS Missouri and was running the naval operations. That was basically the eastern half of Korea, both north and south. And the distance between targets—some of it was very important manufacturing and storage, and logistics is the heart of wars. So our job was to stifle, destroy their capability. And we couldn't get to all the targets because of distance. So Admiral Clark formed a task force of three carriers and probably twenty-some other ships, destroyers, including his battleship. And we moved north off the city of Ch'ŏngjin, which is about a hundred miles south of the Soviet Union and Vladivostok. And we operated there and could then reach all the other targets that we normally wanted to but couldn't. And, uh, I was on the first mission in the morning and we hit targets in a city called Hoeryong. It is right on the Yalu River, which is the border between the Soviet Union and North Korea. These operations stirred up the Soviets. We didn't go to their territory, which is having such—military operation that close to them got them very excited, and they launched lots of airplanes and the radio chatter became heavy and everything, you know, they were very concerned. Well, upon completion of that, I went back and landed on the aircraft carrier, and I was told to get lunch and get ready, and I was going to go off on the next combat air patrol. When the first flight, the weather was good and we were operating pretty much in clear air. In the meanwhile, a blizzard moved in and the bottom of the clouds were around 500 feet and the tops were at 12,000 feet. So we briefed. I got lunch. Briefed. We launched. And we rendezvoused four aircraft below the clouds, and then climbed two for an assignment above the clouds. And while in and on our way, our combat information center notified us that there were inbound bogies, meaning unidentified aircraft. They could be friendly or enemy. We didn't know. Well, as we popped on top of the clouds, I could see, coming from the north, seven contrails in formation headed right at us. I didn't particularly diagnose who they might be, but they were coming from the Soviet Union direction. Well, as they, uh, were getting near us, the leader of the flight had a warning light that his—well, engine warning problem came on and he was directed to take his wingman and return. We would stay over at the task force. So that left me and my wingman to handle the rest of the mission. So, they said to proceed and intercept. So I charged my guns and made everything ready for war and led the two of us climbing in their directions. Well, as they came over, they reversed and headed back from whence they came and out-distanced me. So when we got to 26,000 feet, they were probably 50 miles north of us and—extreme altitude, 50 some thousand feet, I'm sure—but making contrails, so they were easily sighted. But they split into two groups and turned away from each other and started diving out of that altitude. And when they left the contrail level, it was just plain sight to the airplanes. And I no longer could see them and reported that to the ship. And they had also lost sight in that it was a smaller target and they didn't hold 'em on the radar anymore. So I was directed to reverse course and set up a barricade between the last sighting of the aircraft—which I had identified as MiGs (Mikoyan and Gurevic), which meant enemy—and to patrol between the last sighting and the task force. Well, in that turn, four of them came in sort of head-on—ten o'clock position, all firing—and I knew the game was on. So as they passed, I made a hard turn and ended up on the tail of their last guy. And after a short burst, he fell out of formation and started going down, and my wingman left me and followed that aircraft on down. And so he was out of the fight. And I'm alone with the other three airplanes that dove in the other direction—now joining the group. So I am one against six. So they climbed sharply above me to a rate I couldn't maintain, but I was pointed at them and trailing, and they turned around and came back at me as I'm the target. And I was intending to encounter the guy that just lost his wingman, but I lost him in the sun, and I saw the other two already lined up coming at me. So I switched my aim and aimed at the lead aircraft who was already shooting with larger caliber guns and probably having capability to shoot in an encounter at a greater range. Well, when I sighted on them, I was in range and I fired a short burst. And he stopped, fired, and turned away. And I had later on learned enough information that I have surmised that he was probably hit. The other guy, his wingman, now was coming directly at me and shooting, and I turned and sighted on him. And when I was set ready with him, my target, I fired a burst and he quit firing. But he didn't maneuver. He just kept coming and went directly under my airplane. And I was hosing him all the way. So he was definitely going down. Probably killed. So they had now passed me, but the other three planes came in from the other direction and now they were all split into individuals and taking their turns attacking me. Well, my attention at that point was primarily my six o'clock tail position where they were taking turns on me. And I was their target, and my job was to spoil their aim and survive the attack. And as a good pilot, they often made the run, and then they pulled up abruptly to get back in position to make another run, um, at a rate that I couldn't follow. But there was another guy right behind him, so I was pretty much full-time defensive. Occasionally they made a mistake. One of them flew in front of me and I got on and I hit him close in, and pieces of the airplane were coming off, and I had to maneuver to avoid hitting him. Well, it went on like that for thirty-five minutes. Longer than any other such mission I ever heard of—ever. And they had kept up, and I occasionally had the opportunity to have the sights on 'em and shoot. I at one point was on the tail of one, and he was burning, smoking and going down—slowing. And I was going to give an extra burst, but I was out of ammunition. And I looked around and that's the first time I straightened out that much and didn't pay attention behind me and (he was) on me—right on my tail. So I maneuvered hard, and he kept firing, and he hit me with a 37 millimeter, which is an anti-aircraft size ammunition. And it went into the wing butt on the starboard side of my airplane and exploded in the accessory section of the engine, right mid-airplane and shrapnel everywhere. And it severed the cable connecting to the rudder. So I no longer had that control. And it destroyed all the electrical and—not all of it—but all of the hydraulics. So I had a hydraulic controlled N1s (low speed spools). So I had very little control of that, mainly elevator. But luckily out-maneuvering left me pointed directly at where the task force was, so I didn't have to do a lot of turning to head toward that blizzard and the clouds at 12,000 feet. And this guy settled right on my tail, and 300 feet or so—ideal range to shoot me down—and he was just firing away with all of his guns. But I was using my elevator and I would jam it forward then pull it back. And I'm doing this sort of thing. (Williams gestures up and down). So I'm seeing the bullets go under me, then over me. And this just kept out until I got into the clouds. Heavy clouds that he lost sight of me. I lost sight of him. And since I was damaged and the airplane wasn't flying right—was auto rigged—I did a little testing to see what my survival rate might be. And I was too far away from the task force to eject. I had planned on ejecting, but there wouldn't have been anybody there to rescue me. And that was winter time, the conditions of the water and all. And even with the immersion suit that I was wearing flying, I wouldn't lasted more than maybe 18 minutes. So I stuck with the airplane and kept on track to get to the task force, hoping that I could do something to get rescued there. I didn't believe I'd be able to get landed aboard an aircraft carrier in these conditions, and the conditions of the weather and all. But I got undone and was coming in, under the clouds. So I'm visible to them, and unfortunately they were general quarters. And for all the ships there, that means guns free if they have an unidentified target, hasn't been labeled friendly, they're cleared to shoot. Well, the coordination had broken down between air control and the gunnery liaison people. So they shot at me. And my commanding officer had just taken off to be my relief, to go up and be on the air patrol. And saw what was happening and called them off. Said, he's friendly, and they stopped firing. So I started coordinating with the landing signal officer on the Oriskany, the carrier I was flying from and making plans for what's next. And it looked like I might be able to at least approach the carrier, which means there would probably be rescue forces all over the place. And I still was just barely hopeful I would land on the ship. Well, they were loaded with all the ships aft, the tail end, on a straight deck carrier. So they had to all be moved to the front part of the flight deck to provide space for me to land. That took a while. And I used that time to position myself as best as I could to be where I should be when I got the signal to land. And I tested the airplane at that time, and I found out that it wouldn't fly below 200 miles an hour, 170 knots. So I informed him of that. And they talked to the commanding officer of the carrier and he said, "Bring him in. Any speed he wants." Strong winds from the storm and the ship could do 30 knots. So not a problem speedwise, but alignment was another thing. So when I got the signal to land, I was lined up with the ship into the wind for landing, but I couldn't line up going down the deck to make a landing. I would've come across the deck, which is just a short distance, and I'd (have) gone over into the ocean. At least I would be near rescue forces if I lived through the crash. So I was coming in, doing the best I could, and the captain of the ship saw my plight and, being an aviator, he knew the problem—the only time I ever heard of it. But he turned the ship and lined it up with me, and I landed to catch the number three wire, which is perfect. So I'm back aboard with a whole lot of holes in an airplane, but I'm safe. 00:29:24.605 --> 00:29:31.724 So what happened once you landed and had to—did you hear from Washington or— 00:29:31.724 --> 00:35:41.905 Yes, I went to the ready room. The ship was at general quarters. All the pilots that weren't flying were in the ready room, they're stationed in those conditions. And as I came in—I was surprised—they were all smiling, beaming, and no one's saying anything. And my next job is to be debriefed by the intelligence officer. So I asked him, "What's going on here?" And he says, "I had them all pledge that they wouldn't say anything until I got through debriefing. So we went to the debrief area, and he didn't start talking. I said, "What's going on?" He said, "We are waiting for the flight leader." Well, the flight leader was already over the ship and had nothing to do with this combat. But he waited for him, and when he came in with the last one to land, they'd eaten up a fair amount of time. And on the squat box or radio communication between other units of the ship, the intelligence center is calling in Mac, our intelligence officer, "Get in here, Washington's on the line and they want answers. Right now!" We didn't know anything because the intelligence center would send things on our little—sort of TV—saying that I was engaged and so forth. So they knew that. And they knew I was hit. But not the rest of the story. I didn't know! Actually my attention was that hitting somebody and then diverting it immediately to my next problem. So when the whole flight got back, he started with the flight leader to debrief. And then his wingman, which had a little to say—important. And then to me. And I got a little into it of what little I knew. And he just broke it right up. They just kept—"Mac, get in here, get in here." And so he had to make a report, and he made it up, and it wasn't true. And that became Navy history. They don't wanna' know the truth. All—moving on. It's our last line on the combat line, and we're going into Yokosuka for repairs, replenishment—R&R (rest and recuperation)—and I was ordered to report to Admiral Briscoe, the Senior Navy Admiral in the Pacific—Western Pacific. And when I—oh, on the way down there I saw an aviation boatswain's mate. They're the people that handled the aircraft on the carrier. And I told him who I was and I'd been the pilot and I'd like to take a last look at the airplane before going ashore. He said, "I'm sorry, sir, but we pushed it over the side." And so what I heard was that they robbed it of usable parts, and so forth, and got rid of it. Turns out later, that might not be true. But that's what I was told. So I met with Admiral Briscoe—and I knew his aides and stuff—and they brought me to the door. He said, "The Admiral's waiting." And sure enough I did. He closed the door and he said, "Now, what you're about to hear, you could never tell anybody ever." And that sealed it as far as straightening the record—I just couldn't talk about it. But I learned that we had a new capability called NSA (National Security Agency), and a lot of people say no such agency. They were very closed mouth and don't share information except probably with the President and a few others. But they were on the line on a cruiser right off the coast of Vladivostok, where the base from which these MiGs came. And they wanted that young man to know that he got at least three. Okay, but I can't tell anybody. So I didn't for fifty some years. But in the meantime, Soviet Union broke up, and the Russians out of Moscow came up with a story in 1992 talking about this mission, and they put the names of four that were shot down that day. And then a naval historian came up with a book about something "on the Yalu," covering the big engagement during the Korean War, which was mainly the Air Force half, which was on a daily routine of trying to shoot with another down. But it covered this incident. And of the seven, only one returned. And that's not well known, but that's what the history book says. And where was I going with this? Well, concluded my debrief with Admiral Briscoe and went back to the ship, and in short order learned that President Eisenhower had pledged that if elected, he would go to Korea and see firsthand how things are and what he ought to do about it. And then he learned about this and he says, I want to see Royce Williams. And so as he came over, I was set up to meet him. 00:35:41.905 --> 00:35:47.505 Was it hard for you to maintain that secrecy for so many years? 00:35:47.505 --> 00:36:20.000 It was initially 'cause I just saw a bunch of lies and they put it out as though I said—or Rolands, the wingman, or Middleton, the wingman of the flight leader—all having been in the area, but they gave them credit for things they never did and they never personally admitted that they did it until they got used to it. It sounded so darn good that they played along and abused history. 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:31.043 What were your interactions like with local cultures and the people you encountered during either your deployment in Korea or in Vietnam? 00:36:31.043 --> 00:38:02.315 Albeit in an aircraft carrier, I didn't have a lot of opportunity to see others. I was amazed and interested in the visit with President Eisenhower and his staffs and all in Seoul. It was such a battered city. They had two bridges crossing—the river goes through the middle of town—and they were both in the water. I went back and visited after that. They got 22 bridges almost per block crossing the river. And it's just beautiful. What an amazing change in the geography. But I do wanna' say that the Koreans—I can't believe this—have told me they think I saved their nation. And they have been acting like that. And their president came over here, and I met with him, and they presented me with their Medal of Honor. And I've just been inundated with visits from them—bringing presents, and invited me to the consul in Los Angeles, and the consul general's become a friend. I visited their ships. And it's been amazing. 00:38:02.315 --> 00:38:12.704 What kind of friendships and comradery did you form while serving in Korea or in Vietnam, and with whom? 00:38:12.704 --> 00:38:53.014 With the personnel on the ships I was on, primarily your own squadron. You have a ready room, which is the enclosure with seats and briefing materials and whatnot, where you ready yourself for flight. And actually, otherwise, it's sort of a central for that squadron, and people spend a fair amount of time there. Sometimes in the evening you have a movie and so that's kinda' home base outside of your quarters. 00:38:53.014 --> 00:38:58.304 What did you do for recreation when you were off duty? 00:38:58.304 --> 00:39:21.605 Volleyball, running, maybe a little sunbathing—very little. Some reading, some studies, some—you have other assignments besides flying, So you have to pay attention to that as well. 00:39:21.605 --> 00:39:29.824 Do you recall any particularly humorous or unusual events while on shift? 00:39:29.824 --> 00:40:34.364 Found to be a bunch of them (laughs). Well it's—our pilots get shot down, and if they're rescued, they eventually go by way of another ship and then used breeches buoy, which is a sort of a seat that you get on and have wires connecting two ships and you spin and you can send this little trolley thing with the chair back and forth to send supplies or people. And in a big storm, while they're doing that, the ships come together. Sometimes that close without engaging one another (Williams extends arms in front of himself). But that makes that line instead of taught go down like this (lowers arms). The people often get dipped in the ocean and then come snap it back out of it (raises arms). It's kind of an interesting drill. 00:40:34.364 --> 00:40:38.085 Was there something that you did for good luck? 00:40:38.085 --> 00:40:58.085 No, pray! I am religious and I give credit—I should not have survived that incident, but I did—and I did it with other outside help. God was with me. 00:40:58.085 --> 00:41:06.925 Do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you when your service ended? 00:41:06.925 --> 00:43:59.045 In San Diego, I had had a plane crash where I broke 11 vertebrae. I continued to serve and fly, but the medical department made exceptions in my case to where I was authorized certain medications that I should not have been taking and flying. And as time went on and I would indicate need for more help, they would increase it. And I got to a point of a ridiculous amount. And then the flight surgeon, when I came back from our first tour in Vietnam, talked to his friend who was the leader of the medical department at Pensacola, Florida. And they were so surprised they ordered me to go back to Pensacola for an evaluation. Well, during that they said everything is doable. For instance, thyroid normalcy is around two grains. They had me on five and a half grains a day. And they said, no, it's normal. Just stop taking it. Well, there were results. My hair's falling out, I'm just weary. I'm flying day and night off the carrier. And the results of that study was studied in Washington at the Bureau of Navy Medicine and Surgery. They said, this can't be. So, they got the Bureau of Personnel to give me new orders that you authorize for flight in combat, at sea, down at the actual command—at the actual controls. Why is the wing commander, for heaven's sake? I said, How do I run a wing in combat not flying? So I sent myself to the school for the rear seat—the naval flight officer, we call 'em now—now we have their old set of wings and so forth. At that time, it was so early in the game that we were using the wings that were also used for enlisted flight crew. But as time went on, I was a primary player in getting that law changed that didn't allow NFOs (Naval Flight Officers) to have command. So for officers, NFOs, they'd probably quit at lieutenant commander. There's just no further promotion for 'em. Well, we got that law changed and now we have four-star admirals as NFOs. 00:43:59.045 --> 00:44:02.965 Did you return home when your service ended— 00:44:02.965 --> 00:44:03.000 Oh, ah! 00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:04.000 —Sorry, go ahead. 00:44:04.000 --> 00:46:14.405 So where was I? My physical problems were starting to make life tougher. I started dragging the leg and they sent me to the hospital here in San Diego and operated on me. And I came out, and they put me on temporary retirement until I got healthy. Then I got recalled in 1980. This was—I went in early, second month in '42 and then went out in the first of January in '80. So there was a little gap from when I came out of the hospital until I was cleared for active duty again. And meanwhile, I'd had a ship and a whole lot of very important jobs. I had two-star job on Admiral McCabe staff, who was the first Inspector General, CINCPAC (Commander in Chief Pacific Fleet). I was Chief of Staff COMFAIRWESTPAC (Commander, Fleet Air Western Pacific). A whole lot of pretty important stuff. But I came on back and was on COMATG PAC staff (Afloat Training Group Pacific) when I went to the hospital and they operated on me, set me aside, I came back, and I got ordered as commodore with amphibious task force for training. So I took a group of 20 some ships to Hawaii and that sort of thing. And I came back and retired in 1980, built this house, and grew 200 rose bushes. Spent an awful lot of time below the hill (laughs). 00:46:14.405 --> 00:46:22.324 How did you readjust to civilian life? Did you work, or did you go back to school, or— 00:46:22.324 --> 00:46:52.505 I got a master's degree in college. And I worked for a company as vice president of a startup group. And I saw that they had problems, and I excused myself, and said if they straightened out their operation, I'd be pleased to come back. But in the meantime, they went to jail and I did not. 00:46:52.505 --> 00:46:56.824 Did the GI Bill affect you after you completed your service? 00:46:56.824 --> 00:46:57.293 The what? 00:46:57.293 --> 00:47:02.445 The Montgomery GI Bill or the GI Bill for education? 00:47:02.445 --> 00:47:02.652 —Yes— 00:47:02.652 --> 00:47:03.474 Did you use that? 00:47:03.474 --> 00:47:04.755 —Yes, I used that. 00:47:04.755 --> 00:47:06.000 What are your thoughts on it? 00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:57.065 Excellent. Yeah, it helped me feel fulfilled. I didn't actually use the ability—I also, once I completed the business part of it, I went into law and I was working down near San Ysidro and leaving here at about five-thirty in the morning and getting back at ten and spending all day Saturday in my office reading and my wife bringing me coffee. And just—I said, Why am I doing this? And I had no good reason. So I didn't continue in the law business. 00:47:57.065 --> 00:48:01.954 Did you join any veterans organizations? 00:48:01.954 --> 00:48:03.025 What type? 00:48:03.025 --> 00:48:05.164 Veterans. Military veterans— 00:48:05.164 --> 00:48:20.224 Oh, yes. Oh goodness, yes. All of them. Yeah. Legion (The American Legion), VFW (The Veterans of Foreign Wars of the U.S), the DAV (Disabled American Veterans), and a lot of local groups. Mostly aviation oriented. But I have something almost every day. 00:48:20.224 --> 00:48:27.394 Did you continue any friendships after the service and for how long? 00:48:27.394 --> 00:49:09.545 Well, I was taken out of the circle of friends. When I moved out here, I formed a lot of friendships, became engrossed in the Homeowner's Association. Golfing. But as far as contact, when I learned to play the email bit, I stayed in contact with some of my military friends. But most have died, and I just now get spam (smiles). 00:49:09.545 --> 00:49:20.864 These are reflections. So, how has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:49:20.864 --> 00:50:56.394 Wow, you covered it all (laughs). Immensely! Especially since an admiral that I had served with the four different times, at a reunion came to me and said, "Hey, Royce, there's more to your story than you've told, isn't there?" I said, Yes, sir. And he says, "Well, do you know that it's no longer classified and you could talk about it?" Well, new world. What am I gonna do with this? Nobody knows enough to even ask me to say anything. So I told my wife and she said, "Oh, Royce!" (laughs). But eventually the word got out, and I'm nominated for the Medal of Honor. And that has spread the word. I'm busy with speaking, visiting engagements. You know, it's impacted it very heavily. As far as the church goes, I've been president of the congregation—active in there until I got so old that I don't do that anymore. I've been busy, yeah. I've been involved—when I engage in something, I pretty well go in wholeheartedly and try to find a slot where they can use me. 00:50:56.394 --> 00:51:06.114 What are some life lessons you've learned from military service? 00:51:06.114 --> 00:51:27.954 Outlook. Keep positive. Try to be happy. Don't get mad—you don't have any enemies. Never did. People wanted to kill me, but that was the government's business. Same here in my part. 00:51:27.954 --> 00:51:36.585 What message would you like to leave for future generations who will view and hear this interview? 00:51:36.585 --> 00:52:06.934 To take their responsibilities in citizenship seriously. And if you can find a way to contribute—and there are lots of ways you can—do something for your country. When you do that, you're doing something for everybody and especially yourself. 00:52:06.934 --> 00:52:17.514 How did you become associated with the city of Escondido in this north San Diego County community? 00:52:17.514 --> 00:54:31.735 1965, I was a waiting commander. My headquarters at Miramar Naval Air Station. And I lived in south Escondido and had church membership in the community. I had three sons that were all at home at that time before they went in the Navy and whatnot. And a lovely wife who was involved in Ikebana Japanese floral arranging. And was very good at it, as you can see her hand right here at home. And a good cook. And I had some guns and enjoyed shooting. So if I wasn't required on the job on a Saturday, we would often—she'd make a picnic lunch and we'd take some of our guns and look for a place to shoot. And I found hidden metals before there were any homes out here. Just a dirt road coming up. And I loved it so much. It's just—it's beauty. So, later on in 1972, I was on Admiral McCabe's staff in Hawaii, and I already had far more than the 30 years of service, and I knew I would be required to leave any day soon and had no place to retire. So wife and I came back—space available—and borrowed my dad's car and came up to Escondido—he lived in San Diego at that time. And headed straight up here once I got my instructions right. And there were only two houses but underground facilities, roads, and beautiful place. And so I bought some property here, which I built on later. And, so from the very beginning, they've had my fingerprint up here. 00:54:31.735 --> 00:54:45.355 Thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of military service. Is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never have? 00:54:45.355 --> 00:55:00.445 No, I've had plenty of opportunity to talk to groups, and I don't withhold anything that I think is of value, so it's pretty well out there. 00:55:00.445 --> 00:55:07.045 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 00:55:07.045 --> 00:55:37.474 That the very highest percentage of them are genuine, loving Americans that felt they wanted to do something for the sake of everybody in the nation. And that once they get committed there, it's the lifetime and they're an important productive part of community. 00:55:37.474 --> 00:55:52.155 In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 00:55:52.155 --> 00:56:23.144 Try and be somewhat organized but realize that there isn't much you're going to accomplish on your own. It's a team sport. Get to know other people. Some you'll find have a lot of guidance, maybe some provide opportunity. You're not gonna' do it by yourself. Have a family if you're so oriented. That's an important part of my life. 00:56:23.144 --> 00:56:24.635 Thank you, Captain Williams. 00:56:24.635 --> 00:56:25.635 You're welcome. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the &#13 ; creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials. &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also &#13 ; understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security &#13 ; numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.xml WilliamsElmer_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Williams, Elmer Royce. Interview November 8th, 2024 Description An account of the resource Elmer Royce Williams is a retired United States naval aviator, nationally lauded for his solo dogfight against seven Soviet pilots during the Korean War. Since his time in service, he has been increasingly recognized for his achievements. He was awarded the Navy Cross in 2023 and has been nominated for the Medal of Honor. In his 2024 interview, Williams described that transformative moment in his life and how it affected the Korean War. He also discussed his childhood, military enlistment, and military training. Approaching 100 years old at the time, Williams reflected on how religion, family, community, civilian work, and veterans' organizations shaped his life after service. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-074 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-08 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Elmer Royce Williams Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Marilyn Huerta Adel Bautista Subject The topic of the resource Korean War, 1950-1953 United States -- Armed Forces -- Veterans Air pilots, Military -- United States. Navy United States. Navy Air combat Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Wilmot (S.D.) Korea Vietnam San Marcos (Calif.) Africa, North Little Falls (Minn.) Ortonville (Minn.) Panama Soviet Union Escondido (Calif.) Hawaii San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Elmer Royce Williams License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Madeleine Meyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Floyd Lai OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LaiFloyd_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-11_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. student activism;advocacy;intersectionality;identity OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Lai, Floyd. Interview April 10th, 2023 SC027-49 00:51:43 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Civil rights San Marcos (Calif.) student activism ; advocacy ; intersectionality ; identity Floyd Lai Madeleine Meyer Video LaiFloyd_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-11_access.mp4 1:|12(14)|23(3)|42(9)|55(3)|67(18)|80(14)|100(16)|113(8)|124(10)|138(13)|151(17)|166(2)|179(9)|193(5)|208(8)|223(8)|234(15)|248(10)|261(9)|274(2)|287(7)|302(2)|315(5)|330(6)|343(6)|358(2)|372(14)|385(11)|399(4)|415(9)|431(8)|440(17)|452(13)|467(15)|482(5)|499(8)|513(10)|528(8)|543(9)|557(15)|571(6)|587(10)|601(16)|614(16)|632(16)|645(2)|661(9)|676(4)|691(11)|704(6)|717(11)|735(6)|736(1) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/cdc9cc3afd3d45aade44b574d2e95ada.mp4 Other video 0 Introduction and Background Interviewer Madeleine Meyer introduces Floyd Lai, who was Director of the Cross-Cultural Center from 2011 to 2023. He talks briefly about his family background and childhood, as well as his identity as a Chinese American. Lai then describes his educational journey and how he originally went to school for environmental engineering. After a lackluster experience, Lai decided to switch career paths after interning at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irivine. 0 375 Student Activism and Social Justice Despite not having a specific background in courses related to activism or advocacy, Lai describes how the Cross-Cultural Center and different lived experiences impacted his perception. Self-exploration is defined as a major contributor to his understanding of accepting peoples differences. Lai also discusses how living as an Asian American has impacted his goals for activism and social justice. 0 648 The Earlier CCC Meyer asks Lai to remember the CCC when he first arrived in 2011. Back then, the University Student Union had not yet been built, and several student organizations such as the Black Student Center were not yet founded. Coming from University of California Irvine, with one of the first Cross-Cultural Centers, Lai describes how his previous experiences impacted his work at the CCC. As the center expanded, Lai recalls more and more programs and spaces began ; including the Activist Lab, Critical Cougars, and others. Through all of these changes, Lai considers the student body to be more transformative. Every year brings new students, new ideas, and new opportunities for growth. 0 1034 The CCC Programs Lai briefly describes a few of the programs that the CCC offered throughout his tenure. Lai also identifies the four specific areas of focus: developing cultural competency, activism, advocacy, and critical engagement across social identity groups. Some of the programs that facilitate these goals include: Critical Cougars: Unlearn, Relarn, the Activist Lab, as well as the expansion of identity-based student organizations such as an APIDA (Asian Pacific Islander Desi American) center at CSUSM. 0 1540 Personal Growth from the CCC Lai considers the role that the CCC has impacted his personal and professional expansion. Beginning with an internship, and later six years of work, at the University of California's Cross-Cultural Center, Lai describes how different programs, roles, and students have impacted him. He attributes his work at the CCC to expanding his understanding of disabilities, for instance. 0 1810 Challenges at the CCC Considering the different challenges in his tenure as Director of the CCC, Lai recalls how the pandemic forces the entire campus to switch online, and how well it was handled. He also discusses the pushback against Critical Race Theory, as well as to different outreach programs. Overall, Lai stresses his goal in educating the next generation, and that challenges have not deterred him. 0 2194 The CCC Coexistence with Student Identity Spaces As more and more student identity-based spaces open, Meyer questions Lai regarding the role of the CCC. Lai addresses that the CCC has continued to coexist with the expansion of other student centers because of its role in providing a space for those students who do not feel represented elsewhere. Currently, with approval of an APIDA center, Lai acknowledges that the role of the CCC will change as its demographics shift, yet the purpose to advocate for activism and inclusivity will remain. 0 2643 The Future of the CCC Lai considers the role of the CCC in the future, in an ideal world. He considers the financial aspects of being a student, and how the CCC could better facilitate student-incomes. Regarding disabled students, he also considers the potential for programs that coexist and yet go beyond those offered with Disabled Student Services (DSS). 0 2895 Some Favorite Memories From his time as Director, Lai recalls some favorite memories. Working with different student graduate assistants are some of his highlights. He specifically enjoyed watching his first-class of graduates, wherein he began working with a freshman class and witnessed their collegiate careers and graduation. 0 Floyd Lai served as Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at California State University from 2011 to 2023. In this Interview, Floyd discusses the growth and development of the CCC in conjunction with other student organizations. As a self-identified Chinese American, Lai addresses how his personal, educational, and professional background have informed one another. Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Floyd Lai, director of the Cross-Cultural Center here at California State University San Marcos, (for) the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Monday, April 10th, 2023, and the time is 4:38(pm). Hi Floyd, could you introduce yourself and talk a little bit about your early life? Where did you grow up, what your parents did for work? Lai: Hi, Madeleine. Yeah, so my name once again is Floyd Lai. I use he/him pronouns. And I grew up, I was born originally in, on the island of Oahu, in Kahuku, which is on the North Shore. My parents are both immigrants from Taiwan . So, they immigrated in about the early seventies, to Lāʻie. Went to school there, got married, went to school there, and that's where I was born. Eventually moved around and arrived in southern California when I turned six. And I've grown up mostly in an area called Roland Heights up in the Los Angeles, greater Los Angeles area, county area. Um, since then, my parents, being immigrants did a couple of different jobs. When we first started and they first came over, they were helping out with a restaurant here in California. And so that's what partly brought us here to California. And then over time, my father eventually went into, as an entrepreneur went into his own business. And so we have, since I wanna say about the mid-nineties, he um, we have a manufacturing business in zippers . And so, my--it's a family business, although I'm not a part of it, and so (laughs) I'm indirectly involved, but so they manufacture and create zippers for the garment industry in general. Meyer: Oh, that's really interesting. So what was your educational journey like? I understand that you got your degree in bioengineering from UC (University of California) Irvine, is that correct? Lai: Almost, almost. It was in environmental engineering. Meyer: Oh, okay. Lai: So, yeah, I don't think biomedical or bio was, was quite ready yet. But at Irvine where I went to school, my original, I graduated the degree in environmental engineering. In my junior year I had a(n) internship, which allowed me to go and actually experience what it was like, kind of taking samples of water and you know, doing things. I went and visited government agencies to kind of see a history of what the land looked like prior to the current state, just to see if there were any underwater tanks or anything that would hold anything hazardous. So did that one summer and realized I didn't like it. I didn't see myself doing that for very much longer. And one thing that was different though is that I was heavily involved on campus, and so I was involved in a couple of different student organizations. I interned as a Special Projects Intern at the Cross-Cultural Center. So that was my first introduction to multicultural or cross-cultural centers. And so because of that, it really allowed me to kind of see that I enjoyed working with students and kind of being able to develop programs and being a part of something like that. And it took a mentor of mine, someone I consider a mentor, to tap me on the shoulder and say, “Hey, you'd be really good at this. This is something you might want to consider as a career.” By then I was so far along in my degree that I decided not to change, but rather just complete the degree. And after I graduated college, (I) went into the field of student affairs, which is kind of the work that I do now. And so that's kind of how I got into the pathway of where I am today. My, I decided to work to see if this was kind of the field I wanted to get into. And fortunately, the mentor who I consider someone who kind of guided me on this pathway, left the institution (and) came back, or left southern California, came back and was in a new position and was looking for someone. And so I, that's where I got a job with her, at Alliant International University. It was kind of a jack of all trades ; I learned a lot of different skills. It was a very small institution. And so I learned, I was the Student Affairs Coordinator, but I did a lot of different things while I was there. And so, that was only gonna be one year. That turned into three, and then I finally decided that I needed to go to grad school, so I ended up getting my graduate or master's degree in post-secondary administration and student affairs at University of Southern California. And so, in that process, about a year into my program, there was an opportunity to go back to my alma mater at UCI (University of California, Irvine) and get a chance to work there as a program coordinator. So I was in my graduate program. There was this opportunity, I wasn't sure how this was gonna work, but I decided to go for it. (I) was hired, and so I essentially was doing a large commute between Irvine, downtown LA, and West LA where I lived. And just kind of making that work for the couple years that I was there. That eventually ended up being my full-time position at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine. I worked there for about six years, and then as I was looking to see what the next step would be in my progression of my career, an opportunity occurred down here at Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos, in twenty-- about 2011. And so, I was hired in June of 2011 to work here at Cal State San Marcos. I've been here ever since. Meyer: Mm-hmm. And you're the longest running program director, right? Lai: I am, yeah. So, we've had, I'm the fifth person that's been in the position as the, at the time, Associate Director of the Cross-Cultural Center. But, I've been the longest serving. Meyer: Okay. Lai: And so I'm going on about, (my) 13th year now that it's 2023, so. Meyer: Okay. Were there any particular instances in your life in which you decided that student activism and social justice was really what you felt passionate about? Was there like any one incident or student you helped or? Lai: Yeah. I don't know if there was one single instance necessarily. I--again, my degree was in environmental engineering, and so someone who has that sort of degree, their course load or their classes are pretty set. I was double majoring at the time or attempting to double major with a degree in Japanese language and literature. Which didn't happen. But--so there was very little time for me to take, you know, extensive sociology courses, ethnic studies courses. I took one Asian American Studies class. But I think those opportunities, along with the work that I did at the Cross-Cultural Center, really opened my eyes to what might be possible. I wouldn't say that I was passionate about the work in that regard, but I think as a student, I really enjoyed the topics and issues that were being brought up. A lot of it was around self-exploration, better understanding my own identities and how it interacted with some of the experiences that I had. I will say that I think something that was seminal was I um, in about nineteen, mid-nineties, about ninety-five or so, the internet was still kind of in its early infancy. This is when we had to go to chat rooms or go to, go to certain rooms to be able to chat online and talk to one another. And I was still, you know, I was new to the technology, but I had um, was in one of the labs and I received a message indicating, that you know from someone randomly somewhere that, you know, pretty much told me as an Asian American that I was ruining his career, his academic career. And that he wanted to basically kill every effing one of us. You know, I didn't know what, how to react to it at the time. I went to the person in the lab, let them know, realized I wasn't the only person that received that message. Turns out I and a bunch of other folks that happened to be in the lab and also happened to have Asian sounding last names, were the first instance of a hate crime over email at the time at UCI (University of California at Irvine). And so that experience was sort of a culminating experience for me when it came to how one's identity can impact their lived experiences. Right? Up until--not that I was unaware of that before, but I think as an Asian American, the experiences I had weren't necessarily equivalent to maybe, let's say a Black American or, someone who might identify as Latinx. There wasn't even that term back then, right? And so those are the things that I think really opened my eyes. And so I got more involved, invested in the work that the Cross-Cultural Center did at UCI, and because of that, that allowed me to explore those areas that I probably wouldn't have if I had continued to go into the field of engineering. I take all of the learning I got, the way I think as an engineer and try to apply it in the work I do today. And so definitely it still serves me in a lot of ways. Um, but it was, I would say that experience coupled with the support that I got from the Cross-Cultural Center and the mentorship that I got, and the opportunities I had to work there that allowed me to find this field of student affairs, and specifically multicultural affairs, is the work that I do. And so, that's been kind of the trajectory and the pathway that I've kind of fallen into. And, you know, like with any position, I don't know how long I'll be somewhere, but there's definitely something unique and special that I've experienced here at Cal State San Marcos that is reminiscent of my time as an undergrad at UCI that I think they're very similar in that at that time, Irvine was not as big as it is now. And it felt very--it was, it felt like it was just, it was just coming into its own. And I feel like Irv-- Cal State San Marcos is in a similar way kind of coming into its own as well. And so I think I enjoy those experiences and why working here has been a great opportunity for me to continue to grow and develop as not only my professional career, but also participating in the student life that occurs here on campus. Meyer: Right. Right. Okay. So oh, you can go ahead and take a drink. Yeah. Did any, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you first came aboard here? Lai: Yeah so, my understanding and I'm a person who, when I learned real early an adage that I, again, one of my mentors said, you know it, you don't, you're not really sure where you're going until you really understood where you've come from. And so I've taken that to heart in a lot of ways. And so, I worked at UCI for about six years and really understood the history. Coming here I had a very similar, I didn't know fully--it's different. It's a different campus. It's a different population of students that I work with. And so, it took some time to kind of understand sort of the history of what the (CSUSM Cross-Cultural) center is. So, it really appealed to me. We at the time were called Multicultural Programs. There was a Cross-Cultural Center. It was up in what is currently now where the University Advancement Office is located in the Commons Area, kind of up there. And I had two offices, that was kind of the center. And then I was a part of the Student Life and Leadership (SLL), which is now has also evolved in, it has a different name now on campus: Student Leadership and Involvement Center now. But back then it was SLL. And I was hired on as the Associate Director of Multicultural Programs. And so what that meant is that I was a part of Student Life, or at that time, Student Life and Leadership. And I oversaw the Cross-Cultural Center, but it was also integrated into much of the other programs, which included orientation at the time, student, student organizations, fraternity and sorority life. It was all encompassed in that department. So, I had colleagues that had a specific area. And then my area was in Multicultural Programs, or the Cross-Cultural Center. We were a small office (laughs). My desk was literally in the middle of everything. No walls, you know, I was just there and everything kind of happened . There was comfortable couches and things but it was, you know, it was busy. It could be loud at times. And so, I had to either kind of zone it out so I could focus on the work, or really develop relationships with the folks and the students that were there. It was, it felt you know, we were still kind of growing in a lot of ways. And so, I used the first couple years to really understand, or at least try to understand where the Cross-Cultural Center at Cal State San Marcos, what its history had been, what its legacy was at the time, and what it could be, and really understanding that. Um, and so that's kind of the first kind of impression I got. I know I did a lot of walking back and forth between my quote unquote office or upstairs. So about, probably about two days or three days after my first day, which was June 11th, I remember that 2011, or maybe it was (June) 13, whatever that Monday was, Dilcie Perez, who was my supervisor at the time, took me to a meeting to talk about the development and construction of the new University Student Union (building on CSUSM campus that houses student organizations) at the time. So, I got a chance to see kind of what was gonna happen within the next couple of years. And sure enough, soon as, you know, this Union the Union was built, we had a much larger space. We--at the time, there were still only the three centers. So, it was the Cross-Cultural Center at the time, (another center) known as the Women's Equity Center, or the Women's Center, I should say. It was before it was called the--what it's current name is (Women and Gender Equity Center), and then the LGBTQIA Pride Center. So it was just those three spaces and so we each had a space, and really it was a lot more square footage, a lot more opportunities to kind of do programs and do different things in those spaces. So, I've seen kind of an, an evolution of how space has affected and been an integral part of what the students experience. Right? And so, they had now a larger space they could call their home and be able to participate in the programming that we did. Meyer: Nice. So, obviously a lot has changed in the years since you have been Director of the Cross-Cultural Center. What do you think some of the biggest transformations are? I mean, obviously the space transformed. Lai: Yeah. I think, you know, students are different, right? I think every year there's a new crop of students that come in, comes in, and so their--the demographic, their experiences are very different. The last couple years with COVID in particular. So there, so I think of, you know the students we have are part of the differences in trying to ensure that we're fulfilling our mission and supporting the students that come in, whatever experiences they have at the time. So, that I think has evolved and shifted and changed. I would say the issues too, I think back when I started, not that it wasn't an issue, but I think questions about diversity, equity and inclusion, weren't as divisive as they feel like right now to some degree. And the ability to have a difference of opinion, or even be diverse for lack of a better word, it seemed like there was less of that animosity or even a question of whether that's even integral or important, than there is now. And so that's been a shift or change that I've seen. Besides obviously the space. I think the mission has shifted and evolved and changed. So as I've gotten a better sense of, one, honoring and understanding what the history of the Cross-Cultural Center was here at Cal State San Marcos. You know, after a couple years, I wanted to put my own sort of spin and, or impact it in a way that I thought would benefit the students that were here at the time. And so, the mission, not that it's evolved, it's kind of--well no--it has evolved in a way that I think is trying to be more --trying to meet the needs of the students that we have currently. So those are some of the things: the programs, the way it's organized as well, programmatically, so that it aligns with our mission. We're trying to be more strategic about that as well. And so those have been some of the things that I think I've seen kind of shift and change, as well as I think just the, just the natural budget cycles, politics and other things that occur on a college campus. Meyer: Can you talk a little bit about the programs that you guys have? Lai: Yeah, yeah. Our current iteration now, we have, our focus is in four specific areas which include: developing cultural competency, activism and advocacy, critical engagement across social identity groups. So, we come from an intersectional lens. And so, recognizing that there is, there are ways that different people and different identities can interact and have unique outcomes. And so how do we explore that a little bit? And then the retention of underrepresented students in ensuring that they stay here and are successful. We have a high number of students who are first generation college students. And so recognizing that there is additional support that's needed. So those are the four sort of main pillars, for lack of a better word, that we have in the Cross-Cultural Center that really round us in the work that we do in the mission of the center. The programs we put on mirror that. So, we have program series, that we kind of--as a guide for our students. When I first came on, I think--and I think with anything we want, I was still learning, and so the students had some set programs that they put on, and you know, it would change and evolve depending on what the student's interests were. And so, it felt like it was not something con-- there was always an underlying thread, but there was not something that felt like it was consistent. And so, probably about five or six years ago, we instituted more of a program series that aligned with the themes that I shared earlier. And so, some of them are direct correlations. So, for example the Activist Lab, that meets our theme of advocacy and activism, it's an exploration of different ways in which students or participants can see who, what activists, who they were, what were their causes, how did they approach creating social change. Protest is absolutely an integral part of it, but it's not the only way that I think, um, students oftentimes think may be the only way. And so really helping to explore the different avenues of creating social changes is what we do within the Activist Lab. The other one we do as far as retention is called Academe &amp ; Me, it used to be called Tukwut Talks: Conversations with Faculty. But it was really about how to create programs that allow students to develop relationships with faculty members, recognizing that they were students themselves at one point, had highs and lows. And you know, and really humanize, I think for lack of a better word, because I think students oftentimes, either if they don't have a question or unsure about having a conversation with their faculty member, they don't. They--what do we talk about kind of a thing, right? And so they often put 'em on this sort of pedestal. And so inviting faculty--and even now we have grad students come in and participate--but let them know that it's okay that they have, they're just like anyone else. Maybe even learning about a particular subject of study that perhaps they didn't even know was something they could study. So that particular--Academe &amp ; Me is really about helping to hopefully create a pipeline of students to go into the professorate or into academia. Again, developing relationships with them and so, that's part of how we hopefully can retain our students. One final thing that we do, well two others I'll speak to. One is Critical Cougars: Unlearn. Relearn. And so that really aligns with the notion of how do we explore those different identities? And in the critical engagements and this around across social identity groups. It's kind of our largest sort of bucket, ‘cause anything can be sort of put in that particular bucket, but it's really about how do we unlearn maybe things that we learned in high school, how do we relearn or even learn for the first time things that we weren't taught necessarily, depending on where we went. And how do we evolve and continue to change and challenge ourselves critically in the thinking that we have. And so that's what that sort of program does. And then finally, I'll speak to something--my identity is, and I didn't, I spoke part of it a little bit earlier when I introduced myself, but my parents are from Taiwan, so I identify as Asian American, specifically Chinese American. And so, currently at Cal State San Marcos, there isn't a physical building, or a center dedicated to Asian Pacific Islander Desi American students. So with that vacuum, I said you know, the Cross-Cultural Center and oftentimes a Multicultural Center has served in that sort of capacity ; where the space is there but the other, like the LGBTQIA or the Women's Center, this Cross-Cultural Center in other, not necessarily here but in other spaces, they've been--they came from that space. And then once they had a critical mass or felt the need, they were established. So in the same vein, we don't have one currently. So because of that, and partly because of my own identity as that, we have a program called Defining Diaspora: Asian Pacific Islander Desi American Identities. Which essentially is just an exploration of that really large group of individuals and identities that fall under that sort of diaspora. And so, a lot of programming is, can be about a specific individual, a particular culture, a particular practice or tradition in those areas. And so that's kind of what Defining Diaspora is meant to do, is to really help to expose students of those identities, or those that aren't and wanting to learn more about to those types of cultures and traditions that are part of that. So those are kind of the programs we do. Underlying all that is really a focus on social justice work. And so, things that my predecessors started, my immediate predecessor, Sarah (Sheikh) started was the Social Justice Summit, which is kind of a three-day, two-night retreat. Which really allows a small group of about forty students the opportunity to explore their personal identities, better understand what social justice, that term, ‘cause I think we throw it out a lot of times. We want, you know environmental justice, this kind of justice. And so, what does it really mean when we talk about social justice? Having an understanding of the dynamics of either oppression or privilege, and really exploring what those concepts are. And then, we hope, and it's you know it's not always perfect, but it's that third day is then a focus as we return or plan or prepare ourselves to come back to campus. How do we become allies or co-conspirators, or how can we better support those communities or identities we may not necessarily have ourselves? And so, that has been something that's gone on for a while, again that predated me, and we've just kind of expanded and grown that. So, now we have in addition to the summit, which has been on hiatus because of COVID but we hope to bring it back this fall, the Symposium which is kind of more of a conference style. And that sprang out of an understanding that even, again, I'm a big proponent of tradition or just what legacies have been left behind. There were you know, faculty and stu-- staff that really wanted to take an opportunity for the campus to explore what social justice means in a conference sort of setting. So whether it's workshops, presentations. So that kind of has evolved into our Social Justice Symposium. And then when COVID hit, we couldn't do either one of those. And so we, my GA, graduate assistant at the time Daniela (Carreon) we, in discussions, we wanted to start a scholars program. And so, it's kind of a little bit of the summit. It's not the overnight, because it's kind of a class setting or curriculum. It's over the course of a couple weeks. Similarly, not a very big class, but very intimate for folks who want to be able to learn about these things and be scholars. And so the hope is that they're all connected in some way. Scholars can help in presenting at Symposium, Scholars can also be some of the mentors at the Summit and retreat. And so that's another area that we focus on in the Cross-Cultural Center, in collaboration now with the other centers, Student Life Centers that exist here on campus. Meyer: In what ways do you think, has your involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center helped you expand and develop as a person and as a professional? I know you've touched a little bit (overlapping dialogue) but- Lai: Yeah. Yeah. No, you know, the work I do, I would say absolutely students are at the heart of the work that we do. And so, as students have evolved and changed in their challenges and their perspectives have evolved, I in similar fashion, I think have learned from that as well. And so--it's not, I say this to students all the time: it's not about saying, “Oh I took this workshop. Check, I'm done with diversity, or I'm done with this topic.” It's an ongoing, you know, lifelong pursuit of recognizing and interacting with people that are maybe different from you. And everyone's gonna have a unique perspective or a unique--I mean there are similar, you know places or, you know people connect to. But everyone's different. And for that reason, I think I've evolved and developed a more nuanced approach in how to not only have the conversation around , um, diversity, equity, inclusion, even topics of social justice. I view my role oftentimes as the Director (of the Cross-Cultural Center) in how do we invite people to have those conversations? Even if they're difficult, even if they're challenging, even if they're divisive. Which I know is so hard to do, because why would I wanna sit across the table from someone who absolutely does not believe I should exist or doesn't agree in a lot of different ways. But I think it's through that process, that I've been able to kind of learn and grow as well on either approaches or ways in which we can kind of bring people to the table to have these types of conversations. It is my belief that I think, and I take that to heart because it's my own experience as I've better understood you know, the various isms, prejudices, biases and whatnot that I am a better person for it. And I'm more aware of situations and things that can be changed to enable folks to feel like they're included as part of that experience, whatever it may necessarily be. So, you know my father is an immigrant as part of his identity. He was also, he was born in 1940, and so he was prior to the polio vaccine. So, he has a disability in the sense that he at the time had a brace, and now it, now he's in a wheelchair. But that allowed me to recognize, I mean, we got so many stairs here at Cal State San Marcos, sometimes it's hard to know where people have accessibility and things like that. But so that's something I you know, I grew up with and I recognized, so I thought, “Oh yeah, I know about disabilities. I get it.” And then more recently at a conference I attended, and this is COVID was still happening, we had the stickers that said, “Hey, if it's green, we can hug each other. If it's yellow, you know, maybe like elbows or whatever. And if it's red, no, I want to stay six feet away,” kind of thing. And so, I was part of a registration group, and I share this in the workshops that I do with students, but I said, “Okay, great. We're done, right? We just gotta do the stickers.” And a colleague of mine said, “Well, wait, what if they're colorblind? How would they know which color to pick?” Never occurred to me, because I'm not colorblind. So, we eventually found a solution. We wrote down, you know, R, Y, and G, so folks could at least see what was written there, regardless of the color. But it's those things, those interactions. And I realized that, you know, it's not until you're either confronted with something or maybe you say something you (laughs) you know, you probably shouldn't have said that you realize or better understand sort of the experience. And so, my hope in the work that I do with the Cross-Cultural Center and the experiences that I've gained, I've learned every, every time I've had an interaction, how I can better hopefully have a future interaction or things that I need to work on myself a little bit more in recognizing. And so it's an iterative process. And so, I think that's been something that I've been able to take away because of the fact that I work in a space like this. Versus a corporate you know, entity or things like that. But because of this, it gives me a really unique perspective on how our society functions and what things we can do to try and really be as inclusive as possible for all. Meyer: So as your time in your role as director, what are the greatest challenges that you believe the center has faced? I know the pandemic probably threw a wrench in everything. Lai: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a big one, right? I think having to pivot within a couple weeks, I think the university did an amazing job. You know--it's hindsight now knowing some of the impacts. But I think in the moment, having to do that, definitely that was one challenge, right? In having to deal now, I think with students who have to relearn what it's like to be in college, ‘cause they really didn't really get that experience or relearn what it means to learn even. Because I think those expectations have shifted and changed. I would say also in my time here, I mentioned a little bit earlier, there is I think more of a--I wouldn't even call it a critical view of, but critical in the sense of like something that is a critique. Less--It's very critical. I think a lot of folks are questioning things now related to--let me think. Oh, I'm trying to, it's blank. It's not coming to my mind right now, but just even the necessity for diversity, equity, and inclusion there are-- Oh, critical race theories, CRT, that's one. Which I think has somehow--education has always been I think viewed in ways, understandably, because tax-- Public education, I'll speak to because tax dollars go into it, and so how can we be most sufficient and effective and so forth. And I get that. But even, you know, things like affirmative action which is, we don't have in California, but even those concepts and ideas of how do we outreach to underserved or underrepresented populations. Those things that I think were differences of opinion or approach with regard to policy has taken a very dark turn in the sense that it's very personal in a lot of ways. And I know and I'm not--I again, I was an engineer(ing major), so I didn't take any sociology or gender equity studies classes. But I think it may be second wave feminism but this, the personal is political, is a truism that I think is in a lot of ways where a lot of the policies and things that are being done are directly targeting certain groups. And so the challenge for me, and I've wondered this as well because I've seen states now, right? And their legislatures look at different ways and approaches, such that for example with regard to students that may go to university in Florida, are getting a very different experience when it comes to interacting or working (with) others. Partly because of what they can't necessarily discuss or talk about. I have colleagues, and I'm sure I think I heard from others that Offices of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion had to rename themselves because they were illegal now to be in some of those spaces. So I've seen that shift in the sense that I think I'm gonna be, I--my goal as an educator is to really help the up-and-coming generational students think differently or to be prepared for the work that they do. Now, it's gonna be compounded by the fact that based on your geography or location or where you go to school, you're gonna have a very different experience of things that you've been able to experience as a student. We often say that going to college is kind of a mini version of real life, but here you can make mistakes and the consequences aren't necessarily like, you know, a lot of times we try to find the developmental approach within Student Affairs. How do we do this differently? How do we, you know, it's meant to be a growing opportunity that oftentimes you don't get when you're out in quote unquote the real world. Things just kind of happen and you--that the consequences are what they are. So, my fear is that oftentimes now, if my goal is to have students be able to understand and interact with someone who has no idea or hasn't necessarily had these same experiences or similar types of experiences, doesn't have to be the same--what's that gonna mean then for our society as a whole? Right? Because again, depending on your geography or where you go to school, you're in a very different kind of educational experience compared to someone else who does. I think that where information comes from, there are some benefits with social media and other things where it has democratized and allowed multiple--even filming things, catching things that, police brutality and things like that. So a very democratized, but now the source of where things are and having some level of information literacy and recognizing where it's (media) coming from it, what's the purpose of what it is, and where's the quote unquote truth and where do you suss it out, is another challenge I think that I'm seeing as well in the work that we do. And trying to, we used to start with the same set of facts, and now the question is, “Are we still in, are we talking about the same set of facts or not?” (laughs) And so there's again, some of that that I think sort of needs to happen. And so I see that play out in the work that we do because, you know I may start with like, “Hey, so this has been the experience,” and someone might say, “No, that's not.” And so then I want to learn more about where that is. But it's not necessarily always productive, I guess. And so that's where I see some of the of the challenges in the work that we're doing with these types of spaces, Cross-Cultural Centers or Multicultural Centers. Meyer: It's the politicization of something that shouldn't be. Yeah. Lai: Yeah. In a lot of ways. I mean, I could say this, you know, this notion of public health and how politicized even with regard to COVID, right? The notion of--and some of this is cultural you know it's natural for me to think in terms of the collective, because that's you know in Asian cultures broadly speaking there's a collectivist sort of mentality in how that's supported. America has a very individualistic streak, which is you know it's not a bad thing. I think where the challenge comes in is where does one's, where is one's freedom impinged upon and where it's not? And that's been debated for a long time with free speech and lots of other things, but it has been politicized even in areas like public health to a lot of degrees. And so that's, yeah. So those, they're not new challenges per se, but there are new approaches to how do we have these types of conversations, or how do we help educate and teach about these things in a way that hopefully is broadening and enlightening. So. Meyer: So what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexist with the expansion of identity specific spaces like the Black Student Center and the Latin /x Center? Lai: Yeah, that's a great question and one that I wrestle with because I don't know if I necessarily have an answer myself. You know, I started at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC (University of California) Irvine which is one of the first centers, and this is the history that was drilled into me. Second only at the time at the UC system to a University of Washington, at a time when I think resources were scarce. And so, it made sense to start from a collective cross-cultural sort of center and space. And I would say even for, depending on where whatever campus you're on, either resources were tied or made sense that collectively these were cross-cultural or multicultural spaces. They weren't enough, you know. We have students, understandably within the Black communities, BIPOC, so Black, Indigenous, People of Color communities who said, you know, “Okay, this is a good start, but it's not meeting the needs that we have.” And so that's why these spaces then, you know , like a Black Student Center or other spaces have kind of evolved. The question then becomes: well where does then, once these things have evolved and come out of necessarily this space, what then becomes the role of this space where it started and how does it evolve and change? And that's what I've been wrestling with myself because--and I'm not the only one. University, UCSD, San Diego, they started with the Cross-Cultural Center and now they've got a Black Student Center, Indigenous Center, and all these other additional spaces. And so, it's been trying to figure out, besides programmatically, besides the history months or the heritage months, what are the ways in which they can interact one with another? And so, it's gonna be different on each campus. But I think the conclusion for me has been, you know, the Cross-Cultural Center is essential, especially if there's a belief and understanding, which a lot of my colleagues have, about the notion of intersectionality. We're more than just one-dimensional pieces. I'm, you know, I'm Chinese, but I'm also American. Identify as a cisgendered male. All of those things play with one another in the experiences that I have and/or the choices and decisions that I make. And in the same vein I think, there's always gonna be a place for a cross-cultural center or multicultural center, because these unique and specific spaces are serving a purpose. They're helping Black students getting the support they need because they either, whether it's cultural validation, whether it's just being with someone who doesn't question (laughs) why you're there. Or isn't peppering you with questions about something they may not be familiar with, which, you know, naturally happens. “Oh, what about this? Why do you eat this food? What's that?” You know, those types of things. And I think in most situations it'd be great, but there is an instance where I think there's fatigue in having to explain yourself all the time or, and so sometimes it's nice to just be, when you go into a space. Which I can see there's why there are certain spaces, whether it's the Latin /x Center and so forth. So, I think some of it depends on the landscape of the campus of where a particular space may be at. Here, on our campus, for a long, long time, we just had the Cross-Cultural Center, which is the first one, and it wasn't necessarily born out of protest. Students didn't demand it, it was just, as I understand the history, administrators had said, “You know, we want to be prepared for the 21st century student here in North County.” And so, we think this is important. So we, you know, create this space. Soon thereafter, I want to say it was the Pride Center, and then, or maybe the other way around, the Women's Center and then a Pride Center that, you know, were under student government, ASI, at the time. So those were the three centers for a long time. And then, you know Latinx students said, “We need a space. We're over fifty percent of the population, where our needs are not being met.” You know, and I for a long time, and I and because this is (laughs), I think I had a hard time sort of separating myself and not viewing it as a failure on my part, you know. And students would say, “Oh, it's not you, it's not you. We just need this space.” And I couldn't quite understand, “Well, I know you're saying it's not me, but what could I do to help support this population that we're not doing now?” And so, that was what was going on in my mind. And it took me a couple of well, it took a co--one person in particular and other colleagues to say, “You know, don't get caught up in that.” And eventually I was okay, right? Like, it makes sense that there are more of these spaces because that just provides additional support and resources for these communities. So, that should not be the issue, and you shouldn't get caught up in that. But, you know, it's hard and it--your pride takes a little bit of a hit when you're like: well, what am I not doing that is, that you need a separate space to occur? You know, in that same vein, and eventually there'll be most likely well, I know that the President (of CSUSM, Ellen Neufeldt) has agreed to an Asian Pacific Islander (and Desi American ; APIDA) space here at Cal State San Marcos. And so, the programming that you know, is near and dear to me, doesn't mean I can't do it but, you know, instead of redundant programs, it'll probably go to a future APIDA center. And so, it's figuring out, I think what that role is. And I wish I could say I had a great answer, but I do--I think what I've resolved myself to, or resigned myself to understand--that's probably not the way right way to say it, but is that there will always, I think, be a place for a Cross-Cultural Center or Multicultural Center space. What we do in that is gonna vary. And I've had to adjust. So that's the themes that I shared earlier. And the purpose of, in our mission and how we kind of structure what we do is intentional because it avoids or tries not to step on sort of the toes of the other centers and spaces, right? They have their own things that they do and they support the students. We all have different lenses through which we try to do the same work. And so, my role I think, as a Cross-Cultural Center is how do we build community? How do we bring these spaces together? And being more of a connector is something I've kind of started to better understand as far as what I think this, the role of future cross-cultural center or multicultural center spaces that maybe dealing with this might be is, is how do we connect these communities and keep them together in some way. And continue to find those gaps, those spaces where students may not-- An example is what if I'm multicultural or multiracial? I don't feel like I belong in the Black Student Center, or I don't feel like I belong in the Latin /x Center if I'm both Black and Mexican. And so, I think that's where a space like the Cross-Cultural Center or a multicultural center could still serve as a purpose in exploring those identities, helping them to navigate the complexities of what that entails ; as well as their gender, sexual orientation, all of that in helping them to decide that. So, I think that's what I've come to understand. But the--you know, the verdict's still out on what the (laughs) what that is, and our students keep changing. So, you know, there could be other things that we need to address and figure out as we move further along. But my hope ultimately is that whatever it is, that it'll still continue to serve the needs of the students that are coming to our university and to the institutions that they are applying to. Meyer: What direction do you think the CCC should grow in from here? Lai: Yeah. If I had my (laughs)-- Meyer: If you had your, if you had your dreams. Lai: Of course. You know I think I would love to, and we're kind of moving in this direction, I would love to figure out better ways to support students financially. Whether it's through scholarships or other things. We are as part of I think this project as well, we're celebrating our 20th anniversary. Which you know, we're still pretty young. We're still kind of just getting out of our teen years, right? Into our twenties. But it's a great milestone I think, with regard to being here on this campus. And so, I think financially looking at ways in which we can support our students. I would love to expand our staff as well. I think-- t's funny, I've been the longest serving director, but I've also been a staff of one. And so, in some ways I wonder if I've, if I'd been successful, if there would've been more, other staff members a part of it. But I would love to see more staff members, because I think there just isn't you know-- students' needs are getting more and more complex that require more time, and there's only one of me and I'd like to see other staff come in and be able to assist the students that are here, that may need that support. I think there are other areas that we can explore as well when it comes to, you know, we have a Disability Student Services, but their focus really is on providing the support for students to be successful. Not necessarily doing programming to help folks understand what those (services) are and how we can make the--make some changes or differences. People that are neurodivergent, there's just a lot of different areas and identities that haven't necessarily been explored. But I think those would be opportunities for a Cross-Cultural Center to kind of be able to provide space or to provide programming that can help other students understand not necessarily what it's like, but better understand those conditions and/or maybe consider different ways of thinking about how they, when they have the opportunity or are placed in a position where they can make a difference, that they're hopefully considering and thinking about those areas that they themselves perhaps are privileged in. Where they don't have to worry about or they don't have to think about it in any way. And so that level of work, I think in programming and approaching and supporting those communities, I think is other areas where we can see the Cross-Cultural Center sort of grow. I think there's the conversation about the divisiveness in politics in other ways that, you know, a big part of what I'm doing now and hopefully will continue to do, has been working with the Civility Campaign (program by the CSUSM Dean of Students) on our campus. They kind of, when I first started here at Cal State San Marcos, the, at the time, this campaign started around the same time, so I've been connected to it for a long time. But I've seen the significance and importance of how do we have dialogue and conversation--particularly with someone who may just be of a completely different belief system--but hopefully still get nuggets of wisdom or at least try to understand one another. A lot of, I don't want to make or simplify to say if we just saw you know, held hands kumbaya, that it was gonna be that easy. I don't think it's that easy, but I think that is the work that is necessary for students, particularly at a time when perhaps they've come from very homogeneous communities or they just have never been introduced to someone. To be able to find ways in which those kinds of opportunities can help them to grow and be eventually a better graduate of Cal State San Marcos, because they've had experiences or programs that have introduced them to these types of things that they haven't necessarily done before. So, I think long-term those are some things I'm hoping that the Cross-Cultural Center can play an active role in supporting or perhaps being a big part of really proactively engaging our students in a way that again, makes those students that graduate from Cal State San Marcos really the premier students here in North County. And who go on to become leaders and folks that are making these decisions in the community. Meyer: I'm sure you have a lot, but could you share a few of your favorite memories from your time at the Cross-Cultural Center? Lai: Yeah. You know, it's hard to think about. I mean, there's so many different ones. I think I value the different student leaders that have worked with me. From the very first time, when we called them peer educators at the time. Because I'm a staff of one, I rely heavily on my student staff to really help in getting a lot of the work and the mission of the center done. And so, some of my fondest memories are those different folks that have worked alongside me. Getting to know them, getting to hear about their experiences here on campus. Now seeing them graduate as alumni and really kind of, you know, off in the world and kind of doing some amazing things. I, in Higher Ed you know, I recall after my fifth year that was the first year that I had a student that I knew was a freshman or a first-year student that I saw all the way through and graduate. You know, I've had other students that graduated along the way, but the--that was the first group that I knew from the first time they stepped foot into campus all the way through till they graduated, even transfer students as well. And so, that's one I think fond memory. I love the staff that, I love the staff that I work with now, but also even before when I was part of Student Life and Leadership, Dilcie Perez (formerly in charge of Student Life and Leadership) was my supervisor. And I think she instilled a lot of laughter and like just fun stuff in the work that was oftentimes can be hard and challenging. And so, those are some fond memories. We have a unique tradition here at Cal State San Marcos around Halloween, where a lot of folks dress up, in--within Student Affairs I should say. (laughs) But it's a big deal, and I don't think I fully realized it until I first came to this campus and experienced it for the first time. But some of the different traditions and things like that have been fun and interesting to see. I--commencement is always a fun time where a lot of the memories that I have that I can recollect. When I have had the chance, a lot of us volunteer and help support the program. So, being able to see them (students) cross the stage, see their families and watch them witness their students cross the stage. And again, a lot of them are first generation, first in their families (to graduate college) and the joy and the excitement that they see, those are some memories that I'll definitely keep for a long time. Because I think that is what grounds me. And I know a lot of my colleagues say this, but commencement is kind of, it--the students, yes. But also seeing them achieve and be able to get to that point. And the excitement is also refreshing and kind of a reminder of the work and why we do it. So, when we deal with policy issues or just challenges with bureaucracy of the university, it's always nice to remember those moments because then it reminds at least me of what and why I do the work that I do, and why it's so critical and important. Or at least I would like to think that it's a big part of their experience that they have here at Cal State San Marcos. Meyer: Well, thank you so much, Floyd. You've been a pleasure to interview and yeah, thank you so much. Lai: Thank you. Thanks for taking the time. Meyer: All right. That was great. (laughs). https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LaiFloyd_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-11_access.xml LaiFloyd_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-11_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lai, Floyd. Interview April 10th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Floyd Lai served as Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at California State University from 2011 to 2023. In this Interview, Floyd discusses the growth and development of the CCC in conjunction with other student organizations. As a self-identified Chinese American, Lai addresses how his personal, educational, and professional background have informed one another. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-49 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Civil rights Education, Higher Human rights Racism -- California -- Irvine Student Success University of California Irvine. Cross-Cultural Center Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-10 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Floyd Lai Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madeleine Meyer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Irvine (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Floyd Lai Activists and activism Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e721d1cd7dda1d7fcf17f30300ce3e80.pdf 47e89b7891da9bb8f9d88de16560a121 PDF Text Text FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Floyd Lai, director of the Cross-Cultural Center here at California State University San Marcos, (for) the CrossCultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Monday, April 10th, 2023, and the time is 4:38(pm). Hi Floyd, could you introduce yourself and talk a little bit about your early life? Where did you grow up, what your parents did for work? Lai: Hi, Madeleine. Yeah, so my name once again is Floyd Lai. I use he/him pronouns. And I grew up, I was born originally in, on the island of Oahu, in Kahuku, which is on the North Shore. My parents are both immigrants from Taiwan. So, they immigrated in about the early seventies, to Lāʻie. Went to school there, got married, went to school there, and that's where I was born. Eventually moved around and arrived in southern California when I turned six. And I've grown up mostly in an area called Roland Heights up in the Los Angeles, greater Los Angeles area, county area. Um, since then, my parents, being immigrants did a couple of different jobs. When we first started and they first came over, they were helping out with a restaurant here in California. And so that's what partly brought us here to California. And then over time, my father eventually went into, as an entrepreneur went into his own business. And so we have, since I wanna say about the mid-nineties, he um, we have a manufacturing business in zippers. And so, my--it's a family business, although I'm not a part of it, and so (laughs) I'm indirectly involved, but so they manufacture and create zippers for the garment industry in general. Meyer: Oh, that's really interesting. So what was your educational journey like? I understand that you got your degree in bioengineering from UC (University of California) Irvine, is that correct? Lai: Almost, almost. It was in environmental engineering. Meyer: Oh, okay. Lai: So, yeah, I don't think biomedical or bio was, was quite ready yet. But at Irvine where I went to school, my original, I graduated the degree in environmental engineering. In my junior year I had a(n) internship, which allowed me to go and actually experience what it was like, kind of taking samples of water and you know, doing things. I went and visited government agencies to kind of see a history of what the land looked like prior to the current state, just to see if there were any underwater tanks or anything that would hold anything hazardous. So did that one summer and realized I didn't like it. I didn't see myself doing that for very much longer. And one thing that was different though is that I was heavily involved on campus, and so I was involved in a couple of different student organizations. I interned as a Special Projects Intern at the Cross-Cultural Center. So that was my first introduction to multicultural or cross-cultural centers. And so because of that, it really allowed me to kind of see that I enjoyed working with students and kind of being able to develop programs and being a part of something like that. And it took a mentor of mine, someone I consider a mentor, to tap me on the shoulder and say, “Hey, you'd be really good at this. This is something you might want to consider as a career.” By then I was so far along in my degree that I decided not to change, but rather just complete the degree. And after I graduated college, (I) went into the field of student affairs, which is kind of the work that I do now. And so that's kind of how I got into the pathway of where I am today. My, I decided to work to see if this was kind of the field I wanted to get into. And fortunately, the mentor who I consider someone who kind of guided me on this pathway, left the institution (and) came back, or left southern California, came back and was in a new position and was looking for someone. And so I, that's where I got a job with her, at Alliant International University. It was kind of a jack of all trades; I learned a lot of different skills. It was a very small institution. And so I learned, I was the Student Affairs Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 1 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 Coordinator, but I did a lot of different things while I was there. And so, that was only gonna be one year. That turned into three, and then I finally decided that I needed to go to grad school, so I ended up getting my graduate or master's degree in post-secondary administration and student affairs at University of Southern California. And so, in that process, about a year into my program, there was an opportunity to go back to my alma mater at UCI (University of California, Irvine) and get a chance to work there as a program coordinator. So I was in my graduate program. There was this opportunity, I wasn't sure how this was gonna work, but I decided to go for it. (I) was hired, and so I essentially was doing a large commute between Irvine, downtown LA, and West LA where I lived. And just kind of making that work for the couple years that I was there. That eventually ended up being my full-time position at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine. I worked there for about six years, and then as I was looking to see what the next step would be in my progression of my career, an opportunity occurred down here at Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos, in twenty-- about 2011. And so, I was hired in June of 2011 to work here at Cal State San Marcos. I've been here ever since. Meyer: Mm-hmm. And you're the longest running program director, right? Lai: I am, yeah. So, we've had, I'm the fifth person that's been in the position as the, at the time, Associate Director of the Cross-Cultural Center. But, I've been the longest serving. Meyer: Okay. Lai: And so I'm going on about, (my) 13th year now that it's 2023, so. Meyer: Okay. Were there any particular instances in your life in which you decided that student activism and social justice was really what you felt passionate about? Was there like any one incident or student you helped or? Lai: Yeah. I don't know if there was one single instance necessarily. I--again, my degree was in environmental engineering, and so someone who has that sort of degree, their course load or their classes are pretty set. I was double majoring at the time or attempting to double major with a degree in Japanese language and literature. Which didn't happen. But--so there was very little time for me to take, you know, extensive sociology courses, ethnic studies courses. I took one Asian American Studies class. But I think those opportunities, along with the work that I did at the Cross-Cultural Center, really opened my eyes to what might be possible. I wouldn't say that I was passionate about the work in that regard, but I think as a student, I really enjoyed the topics and issues that were being brought up. A lot of it was around self-exploration, better understanding my own identities and how it interacted with some of the experiences that I had. I will say that I think something that was seminal was I um, in about nineteen, mid-nineties, about ninety-five or so, the internet was still kind of in its early infancy. This is when we had to go to chat rooms or go to, go to certain rooms to be able to chat online and talk to one another. And I was still, you know, I was new to the technology, but I had um, was in one of the labs and I received a message indicating, that you know from someone randomly somewhere that, you know, pretty much told me as an Asian American that I was ruining his career, his academic career. And that he wanted to basically kill every effing one of us. You know, I didn't know what, how to react to it at the time. I went to the person in the lab, let them know, realized I wasn't the only person that received that message. Turns out I and a bunch of other folks that happened to be in the lab and also happened to have Asian sounding last names, were the first instance of a hate crime over email at the time at UCI (University of California at Irvine). And so that experience was sort of a culminating experience for me Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 2 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 when it came to how one's identity can impact their lived experiences. Right? Up until--not that I was unaware of that before, but I think as an Asian American, the experiences I had weren't necessarily equivalent to maybe, let's say a Black American or, someone who might identify as Latinx. There wasn't even that term back then, right? And so those are the things that I think really opened my eyes. And so I got more involved, invested in the work that the Cross-Cultural Center did at UCI, and because of that, that allowed me to explore those areas that I probably wouldn't have if I had continued to go into the field of engineering. I take all of the learning I got, the way I think as an engineer and try to apply it in the work I do today. And so definitely it still serves me in a lot of ways. Um, but it was, I would say that experience coupled with the support that I got from the Cross-Cultural Center and the mentorship that I got, and the opportunities I had to work there that allowed me to find this field of student affairs, and specifically multicultural affairs, is the work that I do. And so, that's been kind of the trajectory and the pathway that I've kind of fallen into. And, you know, like with any position, I don't know how long I'll be somewhere, but there's definitely something unique and special that I've experienced here at Cal State San Marcos that is reminiscent of my time as an undergrad at UCI that I think they're very similar in that at that time, Irvine was not as big as it is now. And it felt very--it was, it felt like it was just, it was just coming into its own. And I feel like Irv-- Cal State San Marcos is in a similar way kind of coming into its own as well. And so I think I enjoy those experiences and why working here has been a great opportunity for me to continue to grow and develop as not only my professional career, but also participating in the student life that occurs here on campus. Meyer: Right. Right. Okay. So oh, you can go ahead and take a drink. Yeah. Did any, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you first came aboard here? Lai: Yeah so, my understanding and I'm a person who, when I learned real early an adage that I, again, one of my mentors said, you know it, you don't, you're not really sure where you're going until you really understood where you've come from. And so I've taken that to heart in a lot of ways. And so, I worked at UCI for about six years and really understood the history. Coming here I had a very similar, I didn't know fully--it's different. It's a different campus. It's a different population of students that I work with. And so, it took some time to kind of understand sort of the history of what the (CSUSM CrossCultural) center is. So, it really appealed to me. We at the time were called Multicultural Programs. There was a Cross-Cultural Center. It was up in what is currently now where the University Advancement Office is located in the Commons Area, kind of up there. And I had two offices, that was kind of the center. And then I was a part of the Student Life and Leadership (SLL), which is now has also evolved in, it has a different name now on campus: Student Leadership and Involvement Center now. But back then it was SLL. And I was hired on as the Associate Director of Multicultural Programs. And so what that meant is that I was a part of Student Life, or at that time, Student Life and Leadership. And I oversaw the Cross-Cultural Center, but it was also integrated into much of the other programs, which included orientation at the time, student, student organizations, fraternity and sorority life. It was all encompassed in that department. So, I had colleagues that had a specific area. And then my area was in Multicultural Programs, or the Cross-Cultural Center. We were a small office (laughs). My desk was literally in the middle of everything. No walls, you know, I was just there and everything kind of happened. There was comfortable couches and things but it was, you know, it was busy. It could be loud at times. And so, I had to either kind of zone it out so I could focus on the work, or really develop relationships with the folks and the students that were there. It was, it felt you know, we were still kind Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 3 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 of growing in a lot of ways. And so, I used the first couple years to really understand, or at least try to understand where the Cross-Cultural Center at Cal State San Marcos, what its history had been, what its legacy was at the time, and what it could be, and really understanding that. Um, and so that's kind of the first kind of impression I got. I know I did a lot of walking back and forth between my quote unquote office or upstairs. So about, probably about two days or three days after my first day, which was June 11th, I remember that 2011, or maybe it was (June) 13, whatever that Monday was, Dilcie Perez, who was my supervisor at the time, took me to a meeting to talk about the development and construction of the new University Student Union (building on CSUSM campus that houses student organizations) at the time. So, I got a chance to see kind of what was gonna happen within the next couple of years. And sure enough, soon as, you know, this Union the Union was built, we had a much larger space. We--at the time, there were still only the three centers. So, it was the Cross-Cultural Center at the time, (another center) known as the Women's Equity Center, or the Women's Center, I should say. It was before it was called the--what it's current name is (Women and Gender Equity Center), and then the LGBTQIA Pride Center. So it was just those three spaces and so we each had a space, and really it was a lot more square footage, a lot more opportunities to kind of do programs and do different things in those spaces. So, I've seen kind of an, an evolution of how space has affected and been an integral part of what the students experience. Right? And so, they had now a larger space they could call their home and be able to participate in the programming that we did. Meyer: Nice. So, obviously a lot has changed in the years since you have been Director of the CrossCultural Center. What do you think some of the biggest transformations are? I mean, obviously the space transformed. Lai: Yeah. I think, you know, students are different, right? I think every year there's a new crop of students that come in, comes in, and so their--the demographic, their experiences are very different. The last couple years with COVID in particular. So there, so I think of, you know the students we have are part of the differences in trying to ensure that we're fulfilling our mission and supporting the students that come in, whatever experiences they have at the time. So, that I think has evolved and shifted and changed. I would say the issues too, I think back when I started, not that it wasn't an issue, but I think questions about diversity, equity and inclusion, weren't as divisive as they feel like right now to some degree. And the ability to have a difference of opinion, or even be diverse for lack of a better word, it seemed like there was less of that animosity or even a question of whether that's even integral or important, than there is now. And so that's been a shift or change that I've seen. Besides obviously the space. I think the mission has shifted and evolved and changed. So as I've gotten a better sense of, one, honoring and understanding what the history of the Cross-Cultural Center was here at Cal State San Marcos. You know, after a couple years, I wanted to put my own sort of spin and, or impact it in a way that I thought would benefit the students that were here at the time. And so, the mission, not that it's evolved, it's kind of--well no--it has evolved in a way that I think is trying to be more--trying to meet the needs of the students that we have currently. So those are some of the things: the programs, the way it's organized as well, programmatically, so that it aligns with our mission. We're trying to be more strategic about that as well. And so those have been some of the things that I think I've seen kind of shift and change, as well as I think just the, just the natural budget cycles, politics and other things that occur on a college campus. Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 4 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 Meyer: Can you talk a little bit about the programs that you guys have? Lai: Yeah, yeah. Our current iteration now, we have, our focus is in four specific areas which include: developing cultural competency, activism and advocacy, critical engagement across social identity groups. So, we come from an intersectional lens. And so, recognizing that there is, there are ways that different people and different identities can interact and have unique outcomes. And so how do we explore that a little bit? And then the retention of underrepresented students in ensuring that they stay here and are successful. We have a high number of students who are first generation college students. And so recognizing that there is additional support that's needed. So those are the four sort of main pillars, for lack of a better word, that we have in the Cross-Cultural Center that really round us in the work that we do in the mission of the center. The programs we put on mirror that. So, we have program series, that we kind of--as a guide for our students. When I first came on, I think--and I think with anything we want, I was still learning, and so the students had some set programs that they put on, and you know, it would change and evolve depending on what the student's interests were. And so, it felt like it was not something con-- there was always an underlying thread, but there was not something that felt like it was consistent. And so, probably about five or six years ago, we instituted more of a program series that aligned with the themes that I shared earlier. And so, some of them are direct correlations. So, for example the Activist Lab, that meets our theme of advocacy and activism, it's an exploration of different ways in which students or participants can see who, what activists, who they were, what were their causes, how did they approach creating social change. Protest is absolutely an integral part of it, but it's not the only way that I think, um, students oftentimes think may be the only way. And so really helping to explore the different avenues of creating social changes is what we do within the Activist Lab. The other one we do as far as retention is called Academe & Me, it used to be called Tukwut Talks: Conversations with Faculty. But it was really about how to create programs that allow students to develop relationships with faculty members, recognizing that they were students themselves at one point, had highs and lows. And you know, and really humanize, I think for lack of a better word, because I think students oftentimes, either if they don't have a question or unsure about having a conversation with their faculty member, they don't. They--what do we talk about kind of a thing, right? And so they often put 'em on this sort of pedestal. And so inviting faculty--and even now we have grad students come in and participate--but let them know that it's okay that they have, they're just like anyone else. Maybe even learning about a particular subject of study that perhaps they didn't even know was something they could study. So that particular--Academe & Me is really about helping to hopefully create a pipeline of students to go into the professorate or into academia. Again, developing relationships with them and so, that's part of how we hopefully can retain our students. One final thing that we do, well two others I'll speak to. One is Critical Cougars: Unlearn. Relearn. And so that really aligns with the notion of how do we explore those different identities? And in the critical engagements and this around across social identity groups. It's kind of our largest sort of bucket, ‘cause anything can be sort of put in that particular bucket, but it's really about how do we unlearn maybe things that we learned in high school, how do we relearn or even learn for the first time things that we weren't taught necessarily, depending on where we went. And how do we evolve and continue to change and challenge ourselves critically in the thinking that we have. And so that's what that sort of program does. And then finally, I'll speak to something--my identity is, and I didn't, I spoke part of it a little bit earlier when I introduced myself, but my parents are from Taiwan, so I identify as Asian American, specifically Chinese American. And so, currently at Cal State San Marcos, there isn't a physical building, or a center Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 5 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 dedicated to Asian Pacific Islander Desi American students. So with that vacuum, I said you know, the Cross-Cultural Center and oftentimes a Multicultural Center has served in that sort of capacity; where the space is there but the other, like the LGBTQIA or the Women's Center, this Cross-Cultural Center in other, not necessarily here but in other spaces, they've been--they came from that space. And then once they had a critical mass or felt the need, they were established. So in the same vein, we don't have one currently. So because of that, and partly because of my own identity as that, we have a program called Defining Diaspora: Asian Pacific Islander Desi American Identities. Which essentially is just an exploration of that really large group of individuals and identities that fall under that sort of diaspora. And so, a lot of programming is, can be about a specific individual, a particular culture, a particular practice or tradition in those areas. And so that's kind of what Defining Diaspora is meant to do, is to really help to expose students of those identities, or those that aren't and wanting to learn more about to those types of cultures and traditions that are part of that. So those are kind of the programs we do. Underlying all that is really a focus on social justice work. And so, things that my predecessors started, my immediate predecessor, Sarah (Sheikh) started was the Social Justice Summit, which is kind of a three-day, two-night retreat. Which really allows a small group of about forty students the opportunity to explore their personal identities, better understand what social justice, that term, ‘cause I think we throw it out a lot of times. We want, you know environmental justice, this kind of justice. And so, what does it really mean when we talk about social justice? Having an understanding of the dynamics of either oppression or privilege, and really exploring what those concepts are. And then, we hope, and it's you know it's not always perfect, but it's that third day is then a focus as we return or plan or prepare ourselves to come back to campus. How do we become allies or co-conspirators, or how can we better support those communities or identities we may not necessarily have ourselves? And so, that has been something that's gone on for a while, again that predated me, and we've just kind of expanded and grown that. So, now we have in addition to the summit, which has been on hiatus because of COVID but we hope to bring it back this fall, the Symposium which is kind of more of a conference style. And that sprang out of an understanding that even, again, I'm a big proponent of tradition or just what legacies have been left behind. There were you know, faculty and stu-- staff that really wanted to take an opportunity for the campus to explore what social justice means in a conference sort of setting. So whether it's workshops, presentations. So that kind of has evolved into our Social Justice Symposium. And then when COVID hit, we couldn't do either one of those. And so we, my GA, graduate assistant at the time Daniela (Carreon) we, in discussions, we wanted to start a scholars program. And so, it's kind of a little bit of the summit. It's not the overnight, because it's kind of a class setting or curriculum. It's over the course of a couple weeks. Similarly, not a very big class, but very intimate for folks who want to be able to learn about these things and be scholars. And so the hope is that they're all connected in some way. Scholars can help in presenting at Symposium, Scholars can also be some of the mentors at the Summit and retreat. And so that's another area that we focus on in the Cross-Cultural Center, in collaboration now with the other centers, Student Life Centers that exist here on campus. Meyer: In what ways do you think, has your involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center helped you expand and develop as a person and as a professional? I know you've touched a little bit (overlapping dialogue) butLai: Yeah. Yeah. No, you know, the work I do, I would say absolutely students are at the heart of the work that we do. And so, as students have evolved and changed in their challenges and their perspectives have evolved, I in similar fashion, I think have learned from that as well. And so--it's not, I Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 6 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 say this to students all the time: it's not about saying, “Oh I took this workshop. Check, I'm done with diversity, or I'm done with this topic.” It's an ongoing, you know, lifelong pursuit of recognizing and interacting with people that are maybe different from you. And everyone's gonna have a unique perspective or a unique--I mean there are similar, you know places or, you know people connect to. But everyone's different. And for that reason, I think I've evolved and developed a more nuanced approach in how to not only have the conversation around, um, diversity, equity, inclusion, even topics of social justice. I view my role oftentimes as the Director (of the Cross-Cultural Center) in how do we invite people to have those conversations? Even if they're difficult, even if they're challenging, even if they're divisive. Which I know is so hard to do, because why would I wanna sit across the table from someone who absolutely does not believe I should exist or doesn't agree in a lot of different ways. But I think it's through that process, that I've been able to kind of learn and grow as well on either approaches or ways in which we can kind of bring people to the table to have these types of conversations. It is my belief that I think, and I take that to heart because it's my own experience as I've better understood you know, the various isms, prejudices, biases and whatnot that I am a better person for it. And I'm more aware of situations and things that can be changed to enable folks to feel like they're included as part of that experience, whatever it may necessarily be. So, you know my father is an immigrant as part of his identity. He was also, he was born in 1940, and so he was prior to the polio vaccine. So, he has a disability in the sense that he at the time had a brace, and now it, now he's in a wheelchair. But that allowed me to recognize, I mean, we got so many stairs here at Cal State San Marcos, sometimes it's hard to know where people have accessibility and things like that. But so that's something I you know, I grew up with and I recognized, so I thought, “Oh yeah, I know about disabilities. I get it.” And then more recently at a conference I attended, and this is COVID was still happening, we had the stickers that said, “Hey, if it's green, we can hug each other. If it's yellow, you know, maybe like elbows or whatever. And if it's red, no, I want to stay six feet away,” kind of thing. And so, I was part of a registration group, and I share this in the workshops that I do with students, but I said, “Okay, great. We're done, right? We just gotta do the stickers.” And a colleague of mine said, “Well, wait, what if they're colorblind? How would they know which color to pick?” Never occurred to me, because I'm not colorblind. So, we eventually found a solution. We wrote down, you know, R, Y, and G, so folks could at least see what was written there, regardless of the color. But it's those things, those interactions. And I realized that, you know, it's not until you're either confronted with something or maybe you say something you (laughs) you know, you probably shouldn't have said that you realize or better understand sort of the experience. And so, my hope in the work that I do with the Cross-Cultural Center and the experiences that I've gained, I've learned every, every time I've had an interaction, how I can better hopefully have a future interaction or things that I need to work on myself a little bit more in recognizing. And so it's an iterative process. And so, I think that's been something that I've been able to take away because of the fact that I work in a space like this. Versus a corporate you know, entity or things like that. But because of this, it gives me a really unique perspective on how our society functions and what things we can do to try and really be as inclusive as possible for all. Meyer: So as your time in your role as director, what are the greatest challenges that you believe the center has faced? I know the pandemic probably threw a wrench in everything. Lai: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a big one, right? I think having to pivot within a couple weeks, I think the university did an amazing job. You know--it's hindsight now knowing some of the impacts. But I think in Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 7 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 the moment, having to do that, definitely that was one challenge, right? In having to deal now, I think with students who have to relearn what it's like to be in college, ‘cause they really didn't really get that experience or relearn what it means to learn even. Because I think those expectations have shifted and changed. I would say also in my time here, I mentioned a little bit earlier, there is I think more of a--I wouldn't even call it a critical view of, but critical in the sense of like something that is a critique. Less-It's very critical. I think a lot of folks are questioning things now related to--let me think. Oh, I'm trying to, it's blank. It's not coming to my mind right now, but just even the necessity for diversity, equity, and inclusion there are-- Oh, critical race theories, CRT, that's one. Which I think has somehow--education has always been I think viewed in ways, understandably, because tax-- Public education, I'll speak to because tax dollars go into it, and so how can we be most sufficient and effective and so forth. And I get that. But even, you know, things like affirmative action which is, we don't have in California, but even those concepts and ideas of how do we outreach to underserved or underrepresented populations. Those things that I think were differences of opinion or approach with regard to policy has taken a very dark turn in the sense that it's very personal in a lot of ways. And I know and I'm not--I again, I was an engineer(ing major), so I didn't take any sociology or gender equity studies classes. But I think it may be second wave feminism but this, the personal is political, is a truism that I think is in a lot of ways where a lot of the policies and things that are being done are directly targeting certain groups. And so the challenge for me, and I've wondered this as well because I've seen states now, right? And their legislatures look at different ways and approaches, such that for example with regard to students that may go to university in Florida, are getting a very different experience when it comes to interacting or working (with) others. Partly because of what they can't necessarily discuss or talk about. I have colleagues, and I'm sure I think I heard from others that Offices of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion had to rename themselves because they were illegal now to be in some of those spaces. So I've seen that shift in the sense that I think I'm gonna be, I--my goal as an educator is to really help the up-and-coming generational students think differently or to be prepared for the work that they do. Now, it's gonna be compounded by the fact that based on your geography or location or where you go to school, you're gonna have a very different experience of things that you've been able to experience as a student. We often say that going to college is kind of a mini version of real life, but here you can make mistakes and the consequences aren't necessarily like, you know, a lot of times we try to find the developmental approach within Student Affairs. How do we do this differently? How do we, you know, it's meant to be a growing opportunity that oftentimes you don't get when you're out in quote unquote the real world. Things just kind of happen and you--that the consequences are what they are. So, my fear is that oftentimes now, if my goal is to have students be able to understand and interact with someone who has no idea or hasn't necessarily had these same experiences or similar types of experiences, doesn't have to be the same--what's that gonna mean then for our society as a whole? Right? Because again, depending on your geography or where you go to school, you're in a very different kind of educational experience compared to someone else who does. I think that where information comes from, there are some benefits with social media and other things where it has democratized and allowed multiple--even filming things, catching things that, police brutality and things like that. So a very democratized, but now the source of where things are and having some level of information literacy and recognizing where it's (media) coming from it, what's the purpose of what it is, and where's the quote unquote truth and where do you suss it out, is another challenge I think that I'm seeing as well in the work that we do. And trying to, we used to start with the same set of facts, and Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 8 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 now the question is, “Are we still in, are we talking about the same set of facts or not?” (laughs) And so there's again, some of that that I think sort of needs to happen. And so I see that play out in the work that we do because, you know I may start with like, “Hey, so this has been the experience,” and someone might say, “No, that's not.” And so then I want to learn more about where that is. But it's not necessarily always productive, I guess. And so that's where I see some of the of the challenges in the work that we're doing with these types of spaces, Cross-Cultural Centers or Multicultural Centers. Meyer: It's the politicization of something that shouldn't be. Yeah. Lai: Yeah. In a lot of ways. I mean, I could say this, you know, this notion of public health and how politicized even with regard to COVID, right? The notion of--and some of this is cultural you know it's natural for me to think in terms of the collective, because that's you know in Asian cultures broadly speaking there's a collectivist sort of mentality in how that's supported. America has a very individualistic streak, which is you know it's not a bad thing. I think where the challenge comes in is where does one's, where is one's freedom impinged upon and where it's not? And that's been debated for a long time with free speech and lots of other things, but it has been politicized even in areas like public health to a lot of degrees. And so that's, yeah. So those, they're not new challenges per se, but there are new approaches to how do we have these types of conversations, or how do we help educate and teach about these things in a way that hopefully is broadening and enlightening. So. Meyer: So what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexist with the expansion of identity specific spaces like the Black Student Center and the Latin@/x Center? Lai: Yeah, that's a great question and one that I wrestle with because I don't know if I necessarily have an answer myself. You know, I started at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC (University of California) Irvine which is one of the first centers, and this is the history that was drilled into me. Second only at the time at the UC system to a University of Washington, at a time when I think resources were scarce. And so, it made sense to start from a collective cross-cultural sort of center and space. And I would say even for, depending on where whatever campus you're on, either resources were tied or made sense that collectively these were cross-cultural or multicultural spaces. They weren't enough, you know. We have students, understandably within the Black communities, BIPOC, so Black, Indigenous, People of Color communities who said, you know, “Okay, this is a good start, but it's not meeting the needs that we have.” And so that's why these spaces then, you know, like a Black Student Center or other spaces have kind of evolved. The question then becomes: well where does then, once these things have evolved and come out of necessarily this space, what then becomes the role of this space where it started and how does it evolve and change? And that's what I've been wrestling with myself because--and I'm not the only one. University, UCSD, San Diego, they started with the Cross-Cultural Center and now they've got a Black Student Center, Indigenous Center, and all these other additional spaces. And so, it's been trying to figure out, besides programmatically, besides the history months or the heritage months, what are the ways in which they can interact one with another? And so, it's gonna be different on each campus. But I think the conclusion for me has been, you know, the Cross-Cultural Center is essential, especially if there's a belief and understanding, which a lot of my colleagues have, about the notion of intersectionality. We're more than just one-dimensional pieces. I'm, you know, I'm Chinese, but I'm also American. Identify as a cisgendered male. All of those things play with one another in the experiences that I have and/or the choices and decisions that I make. And in the same vein I think, there's always Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 9 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 gonna be a place for a cross-cultural center or multicultural center, because these unique and specific spaces are serving a purpose. They're helping Black students getting the support they need because they either, whether it's cultural validation, whether it's just being with someone who doesn't question (laughs) why you're there. Or isn't peppering you with questions about something they may not be familiar with, which, you know, naturally happens. “Oh, what about this? Why do you eat this food? What's that?” You know, those types of things. And I think in most situations it'd be great, but there is an instance where I think there's fatigue in having to explain yourself all the time or, and so sometimes it's nice to just be, when you go into a space. Which I can see there's why there are certain spaces, whether it's the Latin@/x Center and so forth. So, I think some of it depends on the landscape of the campus of where a particular space may be at. Here, on our campus, for a long, long time, we just had the Cross-Cultural Center, which is the first one, and it wasn't necessarily born out of protest. Students didn't demand it, it was just, as I understand the history, administrators had said, “You know, we want to be prepared for the 21st century student here in North County.” And so, we think this is important. So we, you know, create this space. Soon thereafter, I want to say it was the Pride Center, and then, or maybe the other way around, the Women's Center and then a Pride Center that, you know, were under student government, ASI, at the time. So those were the three centers for a long time. And then, you know Latinx students said, “We need a space. We're over fifty percent of the population, where our needs are not being met.” You know, and I for a long time, and I and because this is (laughs), I think I had a hard time sort of separating myself and not viewing it as a failure on my part, you know. And students would say, “Oh, it's not you, it's not you. We just need this space.” And I couldn't quite understand, “Well, I know you're saying it's not me, but what could I do to help support this population that we're not doing now?” And so, that was what was going on in my mind. And it took me a couple of well, it took a co--one person in particular and other colleagues to say, “You know, don't get caught up in that.” And eventually I was okay, right? Like, it makes sense that there are more of these spaces because that just provides additional support and resources for these communities. So, that should not be the issue, and you shouldn't get caught up in that. But, you know, it's hard and it--your pride takes a little bit of a hit when you're like: well, what am I not doing that is, that you need a separate space to occur? You know, in that same vein, and eventually there'll be most likely well, I know that the President (of CSUSM, Ellen Neufeldt) has agreed to an Asian Pacific Islander (and Desi American; APIDA) space here at Cal State San Marcos. And so, the programming that you know, is near and dear to me, doesn't mean I can't do it but, you know, instead of redundant programs, it'll probably go to a future APIDA center. And so, it's figuring out, I think what that role is. And I wish I could say I had a great answer, but I do--I think what I've resolved myself to, or resigned myself to understand--that's probably not the way right way to say it, but is that there will always, I think, be a place for a Cross-Cultural Center or Multicultural Center space. What we do in that is gonna vary. And I've had to adjust. So that's the themes that I shared earlier. And the purpose of, in our mission and how we kind of structure what we do is intentional because it avoids or tries not to step on sort of the toes of the other centers and spaces, right? They have their own things that they do and they support the students. We all have different lenses through which we try to do the same work. And so, my role I think, as a Cross-Cultural Center is how do we build community? How do we bring these spaces together? And being more of a connector is something I've kind of started to better understand as far as what I think this, the role of future cross-cultural center or multicultural center spaces that maybe Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 10 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 dealing with this might be is, is how do we connect these communities and keep them together in some way. And continue to find those gaps, those spaces where students may not-- An example is what if I'm multicultural or multiracial? I don't feel like I belong in the Black Student Center, or I don't feel like I belong in the Latin@/x Center if I'm both Black and Mexican. And so, I think that's where a space like the Cross-Cultural Center or a multicultural center could still serve as a purpose in exploring those identities, helping them to navigate the complexities of what that entails; as well as their gender, sexual orientation, all of that in helping them to decide that. So, I think that's what I've come to understand. But the--you know, the verdict's still out on what the (laughs) what that is, and our students keep changing. So, you know, there could be other things that we need to address and figure out as we move further along. But my hope ultimately is that whatever it is, that it'll still continue to serve the needs of the students that are coming to our university and to the institutions that they are applying to. Meyer: What direction do you think the CCC should grow in from here? Lai: Yeah. If I had my (laughs)-Meyer: If you had your, if you had your dreams. Lai: Of course. You know I think I would love to, and we're kind of moving in this direction, I would love to figure out better ways to support students financially. Whether it's through scholarships or other things. We are as part of I think this project as well, we're celebrating our 20th anniversary. Which you know, we're still pretty young. We're still kind of just getting out of our teen years, right? Into our twenties. But it's a great milestone I think, with regard to being here on this campus. And so, I think financially looking at ways in which we can support our students. I would love to expand our staff as well. I think-- t's funny, I've been the longest serving director, but I've also been a staff of one. And so, in some ways I wonder if I've, if I'd been successful, if there would've been more, other staff members a part of it. But I would love to see more staff members, because I think there just isn't you know-students' needs are getting more and more complex that require more time, and there's only one of me and I'd like to see other staff come in and be able to assist the students that are here, that may need that support. I think there are other areas that we can explore as well when it comes to, you know, we have a Disability Student Services, but their focus really is on providing the support for students to be successful. Not necessarily doing programming to help folks understand what those (services) are and how we can make the--make some changes or differences. People that are neurodivergent, there's just a lot of different areas and identities that haven't necessarily been explored. But I think those would be opportunities for a Cross-Cultural Center to kind of be able to provide space or to provide programming that can help other students understand not necessarily what it's like, but better understand those conditions and/or maybe consider different ways of thinking about how they, when they have the opportunity or are placed in a position where they can make a difference, that they're hopefully considering and thinking about those areas that they themselves perhaps are privileged in. Where they don't have to worry about or they don't have to think about it in any way. And so that level of work, I think in programming and approaching and supporting those communities, I think is other areas where we can see the Cross-Cultural Center sort of grow. I think there's the conversation about the divisiveness in politics in other ways that, you know, a big part of what I'm doing now and hopefully will continue to do, has been working with the Civility Campaign (program by the CSUSM Dean of Students) on our campus. They kind of, when I first started here at Cal State San Marcos, Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 11 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 the, at the time, this campaign started around the same time, so I've been connected to it for a long time. But I've seen the significance and importance of how do we have dialogue and conversation-particularly with someone who may just be of a completely different belief system--but hopefully still get nuggets of wisdom or at least try to understand one another. A lot of, I don't want to make or simplify to say if we just saw you know, held hands kumbaya, that it was gonna be that easy. I don't think it's that easy, but I think that is the work that is necessary for students, particularly at a time when perhaps they've come from very homogeneous communities or they just have never been introduced to someone. To be able to find ways in which those kinds of opportunities can help them to grow and be eventually a better graduate of Cal State San Marcos, because they've had experiences or programs that have introduced them to these types of things that they haven't necessarily done before. So, I think long-term those are some things I'm hoping that the Cross-Cultural Center can play an active role in supporting or perhaps being a big part of really proactively engaging our students in a way that again, makes those students that graduate from Cal State San Marcos really the premier students here in North County. And who go on to become leaders and folks that are making these decisions in the community. Meyer: I'm sure you have a lot, but could you share a few of your favorite memories from your time at the Cross-Cultural Center? Lai: Yeah. You know, it's hard to think about. I mean, there's so many different ones. I think I value the different student leaders that have worked with me. From the very first time, when we called them peer educators at the time. Because I'm a staff of one, I rely heavily on my student staff to really help in getting a lot of the work and the mission of the center done. And so, some of my fondest memories are those different folks that have worked alongside me. Getting to know them, getting to hear about their experiences here on campus. Now seeing them graduate as alumni and really kind of, you know, off in the world and kind of doing some amazing things. I, in Higher Ed you know, I recall after my fifth year that was the first year that I had a student that I knew was a freshman or a first-year student that I saw all the way through and graduate. You know, I've had other students that graduated along the way, but the--that was the first group that I knew from the first time they stepped foot into campus all the way through till they graduated, even transfer students as well. And so, that's one I think fond memory. I love the staff that, I love the staff that I work with now, but also even before when I was part of Student Life and Leadership, Dilcie Perez (formerly in charge of Student Life and Leadership) was my supervisor. And I think she instilled a lot of laughter and like just fun stuff in the work that was oftentimes can be hard and challenging. And so, those are some fond memories. We have a unique tradition here at Cal State San Marcos around Halloween, where a lot of folks dress up, in--within Student Affairs I should say. (laughs) But it's a big deal, and I don't think I fully realized it until I first came to this campus and experienced it for the first time. But some of the different traditions and things like that have been fun and interesting to see. I--commencement is always a fun time where a lot of the memories that I have that I can recollect. When I have had the chance, a lot of us volunteer and help support the program. So, being able to see them (students) cross the stage, see their families and watch them witness their students cross the stage. And again, a lot of them are first generation, first in their families (to graduate college) and the joy and the excitement that they see, those are some memories that I'll definitely keep for a long time. Because I think that is what grounds me. And I know a lot of my colleagues say this, but commencement Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 12 2024-02 �FLOYD LAI TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-10 is kind of, it--the students, yes. But also seeing them achieve and be able to get to that point. And the excitement is also refreshing and kind of a reminder of the work and why we do it. So, when we deal with policy issues or just challenges with bureaucracy of the university, it's always nice to remember those moments because then it reminds at least me of what and why I do the work that I do, and why it's so critical and important. Or at least I would like to think that it's a big part of their experience that they have here at Cal State San Marcos. Meyer: Well, thank you so much, Floyd. You've been a pleasure to interview and yeah, thank you so much. Lai: Thank you. Thanks for taking the time. Meyer: All right. That was great. (laughs). Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer and Aaron Williams 13 2024-02 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lai, Floyd. Interview transcript, April 10, 2023. Description An account of the resource Floyd Lai served as Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at California State University from 2011 to 2023. In this Interview, Floyd discusses the growth and development of the CCC in conjunction with other student organizations. As a self-identified Chinese American, Lai addresses how his personal, educational, and professional background have informed one another. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Floyd Lai Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madeleine Meyer Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-10 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Civil rights Education, Higher Human rights Racism -- California -- Irvine Student Success University of California Irvine. Cross-Cultural Center Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en " target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Floyd Lai License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LaiFloyd_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-11_Transcript Activists and activism Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ayana Ford Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Floyd Lai OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LaiFloyd_FordAyana_04-19-21_Access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Lai, Floyd. Interview, April 19, 2021 SC027-03 1:16:56 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Racism -- California -- Irvine Student success University of California Irvine. Cross-Cultural Center San Marcos (Calif.) Irvine (Calif.) Floyd Lai Ayana Ford mp4 LaiFloyd_FordAyana_04-19-21_Access.mp4 1.0:|16(14)|26(9)|40(9)|51(8)|64(5)|76(9)|89(3)|101(10)|112(18)|125(4)|136(11)|153(5)|166(17)|177(4)|191(16)|202(15)|213(12)|224(14)|238(5)|257(3)|267(9)|278(14)|289(13)|301(6)|313(14)|324(17)|341(11)|355(13)|366(4)|380(7)|394(12)|407(4)|419(7)|431(8)|443(11)|456(15)|468(15)|480(4)|502(4)|517(13)|529(8)|543(4)|555(12)|568(7)|582(11)|592(5)|604(3)|616(10)|630(4)|644(15)|657(9)|668(10)|681(13)|695(8)|709(9)|722(14)|735(7)|748(12)|766(4)|784(5)|796(13)|808(12)|823(5)|836(7)|850(12)|863(17)|875(6)|889(8)|900(11)|914(7)|927(6)|940(13)|953(9)|966(7)|978(15)|994(3)|1019(3) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4ef778dfa6ec0355e8c50df20e5a2bc3.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction Interview of Floyd Lai by Ayana Ford, April 19, 2021. Interview was conducted over Zoom and has a few moments towards the end with technical issues. 0 35 Childhood Lai recounts his childhood as a Chinese American son of immigrants in Hawaii, Idaho, and California, and his introduction to concepts of race and ethnicity. 0 306 Learning about the Black community 0 423 Lai's college and professional experience with issues of race/ethnicity 0 775 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements 0 1188 History of Cross Cultural Center and early campus spaces 0 1440 Needs of students, staff, and faculty involved in the Black Student Center's creation 0 1782 University Administration's vision for the Black Student Center 0 2105 Opposition to the creation of the Black Student Center 0 2395 Opening of the Black Student Center 0 2690 Early focus of the Black Student Center 0 2969 Collaborations between Black Student Center and Cross Cultural Center 0 3522 Reorganization: Black Student Center move from Student Success to Student Life 0 3704 Issues in the early days of the Black Student Center 0 3876 Purpose of the Black Student Center 0 4196 Impact of Black Student Center on Lai 0 4331 Future expectations of the Black Student Center 0 4534 Lai's thoughts on the Black Student Center Oral History Project 0 oral history Floyd Lai was the director CSUSM's Cross-Cultural Center 2011 - 2023, where he engaged with students and their social justice and activism. Lai attended the University of California Irvine before coming to Cal State San Marcos. Lai saw the growth of the Black Student Center, and helped it grow by supporting and aiding students. Lai also discusses his life and childhood. Ayana Ford: So, today is Monday, April 19th, 2021, at one-oh-two p.m. I am Ayana Ford, a student at San Marcos and today I’m interviewing Floyd Lai for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration between CSUSM Black Student Center and the CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Mr. Lai, thank you for being here with me today. Floyd Lai: Pleasure. Thank you, Ayana. Ford: I’d like to start by talking about your childhood a little bit. When and where were you born? Lai: I was born on the island of Oahu in Kahuku in Hawaii, and that was in 1974. Ford: Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood? Lai: Sure. My parents are immigrants, originally from Taiwan. I am the oldest of three sons, three boys. We moved around. My parents initially settled in Hawaii, and then we moved to Idaho, and then eventually to southern California by the time I was six. I have lived in California since about 1980, so pretty much consider myself a native in the sense of being in southern California for the majority of my lifetime. And I would say it was a pretty ordinary, I guess, childhood in the sense that, again, being the oldest of three boys, there were obviously some cultural components in the roles and responsibilities of what that entailed, being the eldest. I also had responsibility over my two younger brothers as well, just with regard to how we were growing up, and it was pretty common as far as an immigrant experience, keeping in mind both of my parents worked. And I think, at an early age, I—there’s a term that was called, not necessarily pejorative but it was a latch key kid. So, I had a key around my neck so that when I would walk home from school, I’d be able to get inside the house, and pretty much had responsibility for my brothers from an early age as well. Ford: I know that. I’m the youngest, so— (both laugh) So, how did that help you come to an understanding of your culture at all? How did your childhood help you come to understand your culture? Lai: Yeah. You know, I would say it was a part of my upbringing in the sense that it guided and dictated—and it was just par for the course, meaning that outside of any influence or education about some of the histories that we learn about at school, it was just part of my upbringing, right? So, being from a Chinese immigrant family, eating Chinese food, right? (chuckles) Everything was just taken as something that was innate and part of the way in which I was raised. I would say that the first instance that I recognized or noticed that perhaps I was different from others was probably not until my middle school years, in the sense that I think first through sixth in elementary school, the community in which I grew up—I grew up in Rowland Heights, California, which is in Los Angeles County. At the time, it was relatively pretty diverse, but I think the friends that I had were of different backgrounds, different ethnicities, different races. And as time progressed and if you were to go back to that community now, there has been a huge influx of immigration, particularly from China and Taiwan because of institutions, like there’s a large Buddhist temple in the adjoining city in Hacienda Heights, and we’ve seen some of the demographic shifts and changes. So, growing up in middle school was probably where I started noticing and gravitating towards individuals who were much like myself, who were also of Asian background or identity or descent. I was on the seventh grade, eighth grade basketball team. And so, I would say that probably was my first introduction to other races, like Black individuals or Mexicans or Latinos at the time. But I didn’t necessarily have a good understanding of the differences when it came to race and ethnicity until very much later, probably not until I graduated from high school and got into college and started taking classes and/or having discussions about that. Ford: So, to follow up on that, during your childhood and adolescence, were you taught about Black history and the Black community? Lai: You know, the extent of that probably was Martin Luther King, Jr., right? ; Black History month, limited to just the month of February. My earliest recollection—I think I may have done research on George Washington Carver, right? Learning about, I think it was peanut butter or a lot of, I think, the stories and notions of Black history that was primarily in our history books, right? And it was all the positive portrayals, right, or images of things and people, right? Obviously, since then and more recently with different projects like, I’m blanking. Is it the 1692 Project or things that are in the media now that talk about slavery and other things, right? My recollection of that when I was in elementary, middle, or even high school was maybe a short chapter, if that, on slavery and the Civil War, but never necessarily through a Black lens or a portrayal beyond just the significant notables like Martin Luther King, Jr., maybe some musicians, Louis Armstrong, things that we would hear about or note, but there was never an extended conversation about that. I played basketball, as I mentioned, in seventh and eighth grades. So, I knew Black students or teammates of mine. We didn’t necessarily hang out. We just played our basketball games and whatnot. But that was really the extent of it. So, we played basketball on the same team, but then beyond that, our circles didn’t necessarily overlap, one with another. Ford: So, after you came to San Marcos, how did that change? Prior to your coming here to San Marcos. Lai: Yeah. Coming to San Marcos as a staff member, I’ve had more—I’ve been out here at Cal State San Marcos for the last ten years. Prior to that, I worked at UC Irvine for about six years. And then, even before that, I graduated in 2000 from undergraduate, UC Irvine as well. That’s where I did my undergraduate program in environmental engineering. So, I was on a track or trajectory to go into engineering, in the engineering field. My first notion, I think in a broader sense, was in my undergraduate experience at UC Irvine. Well, so from a personal experience as an Asian American, Chinese American man, I have shared this story with others when I do workshops and presentations. But my first introduction to a personal impact was—I forget the year. I want to say 1995 or ‘96, per se. I was the recipient, on the receiving end at the time, of a hate incident through email. So, myself and others, back in the day—this is when the internet was still (laughs) kind of coming out—you had to go to a lab to jump on and connect. And there were localized areas and whatnot. But I received an email essentially saying, “I’m going to kill all you eff’in Asians. You ruin the curve,” things like that, that really started me on a trajectory and path to really be more reflective about my own personal identity as a Chinese, Asian American man. You know, “I just got this. What is this? Not sure,” you know. Come to find out later on, it was a student who obviously felt the need or desire to broadcast this message, this hateful message, to whomever was in the lab at the time. And the way he identified folks was if they had an Asian sort of sounding last name. And those that were there, myself included, were the lucky recipients of that. So, that started me on a trajectory, just kind of where I am today. I mean I think that would be a critical, pivotal point in the work that I do within multicultural affairs, and doing the work that I do in the Cross-Cultural Center. It was a personal moment where I started thinking why was I the recipient? What caused this, right? To think about issues in terms of race. And it’s through that soul searching and connections to the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine that I got involved. Then I said I wanted to explore that a little bit more. I was involved in various clubs. I was part of the Hawaii club. I’m not myself native Hawaiian, but it was something. I was born there, and it was something that I gravitated towards. And it was through those interactions that I started getting involved and going to programming with the Cross-Cultural Center at that space and Center, which I eventually got to work at prior to coming here to Cal State San Marcos, when I worked there for about six years. I got introduced to the Black Student Union, right? MEChA which is a student organization that often helps to—We call them umbrella organizations. They are the political, social wing of the experiences at UC Irvine at the time: Asian Pacific Student Association ; again, these larger groupings. And so, I worked at the Center as a volunteer initially, then as an intern, and then I was involved in a program called REACH. They’ve changed their name since, but it was called Reaffirming Ethnic Awareness, Community, Harmony. So, I learned about workshops. I got really deeply involved in understanding, for example, the different experiences within the various communities, whether it was the Asian community, the Black community, the LatinX community—LatinX wasn’t a term at the time, right—so, the Latino community, and the different sort of experiences. I would say also during that time at UC Irvine was the first time I took an Asian—So, I was an engineer. So, that was my trajectory and pathway. It’s very fixed. You can’t deviate too much, right? Ford: Yeah. Lai: You know, you’ve got your sciences classes. You’ve got your engineering classes. But, on occasion, I had the ability to take some of electives. And so, one of the electives I chose was an Asian American Studies class which was helpful for me, as well, as I was just trying to get into and understanding of some of those issues and areas. So, between my experience at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine, some of the classes I was able to take, the interactions that I had, obviously hanging out at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine, I got to meet the leaders of the Black Student Union from the American Indian Student Association. These were folks that I was able to run in circles or I would see on a regular basis. They had retreats and other opportunities for student leadership exposure. And so, that’s where I was able to expand and grow my experience. And at the time I wasn’t sure if I was going into the field of higher education that I am in now. It was just something that was supplementary to understanding some of those things at that time in my own personal development, of my own identity, and in relation to other people. Ford: So, as you mentioned before, you had talked a little bit about how the different movements were. How has Black social justice and activism such as Civil Rights Movement, Feminism, and Black Lives Matter Movement affected you? Lai: Yeah. I would say that’s a more recent, and I would say it’s an ongoing, evolutionary progression for me, right? Let me start more recently and maybe work backward. I would say this past summer, last summer, with George Floyd—And, again, he was not the first and nor was he the last, as we’ve seen more recently with the continued impacts of anti-Black racism occurring. I would say, however though, that that coupled with the pandemic and other things, right, I think galvanized. And we saw our country and nation as a whole get to a turning point, right? And so, that’s something that I would say is the strong notion of anti-racism, of anti-Black racism particularly, and how it’s situated within the context of my understanding of racism and discrimination broadly, was really galvanized there. The Black Lives Matter Movement I know occurred a couple of years earlier, right, with Ferguson and some of those things. So, there has been a steady, I think, beat in my own personal understanding in history of the Black experience and where I fit and situate, right? I often felt as if I was a bystander to some degree, someone who’s looking outside looking in and trying to understand but, obviously, not recognizing those experiences personally. And there’s a certain level of privilege in that too, right? So, because I’m not Black and I don’t have to go through some of those things, I have the luxury of not having to worry about those things, right? So, yes, it’s horrible. Yes, it’s awful. And I felt a lot of empathy for situations and crises like this. And why does this continue to occur? But I would say that, going back to George Floyd, that was a pivotal point in my own personal experience in recognizing—one, because I mean my first name is Floyd, so it was weird hearing so-and-so was on the neck of Floyd. And so, there was this kind of weird connection as well, because his last name just happens to be my first name. And so, there was almost this personal connection now because I would see Floyd in narratives and things like that about the experiences with police. And so, it was very personalizing in that way. So, I think that, and then going back to Black Lives Matter, I would say my background and trajectory and pathway, especially in this field of social justice work, I was never—compared to probably some of my colleagues—I was never a super activist, right? I wasn’t out there chanting or demonstrating. There were a few times I was part of marches or walks, but nothing that felt very heavily involved. Part of the reason why is because I think, also personally, my purpose was I’m going to get an engineering degree. This is all nice but that’s not my focus. And then, as I came to my own sort of personal consciousness and awakening myself, I started to see how education could be an opportunity to better understand. And I felt like I could have an impact on things as well, right? Personally, and professionally, in a lot of ways. So, going back to your initial question, I think those experiences have continued to evolve for me. I think there are better nuances in the sense—or better is not the right word. I have more nuance in understanding that experience and how I fit into that, right? This last summer, there is more of a commitment. Now, anytime we make a commitment or a desire to change, we always have to check ourselves to see if we’re still in that same frame of mind. But I have a stronger commitment to trying to dismantle anti-Blackness and try to dismantle racist notions. And even more so now, going back to my identity as an Asian American, in what ways does my own culture and my own upbringing, does my own lens, as an Asian American, help to contribute to some of that, right? I was having a conversation with some colleagues of mine and thinking back, when I was younger, going back to that kind of thing, there was this rule about who I was able to date. Right? Who would be acceptable to date? So, obviously, my parents are Chinese. So, if you can find someone, and I identify as heterosexual, so if you find a nice Chinese girl, right, that’s at the top of the list, if you can find someone that you want to date. And at the bottom of the list, right, was someone who was more dark-complected or Black, right? That was not in my wheelhouse or realm. And so, a lot of that sentiment that seemingly is innocuous—I mean, my parents are immigrants and so this notion, right, coming from Taiwan where there’s not a lot of people of color, right? They’re mostly Chinese or indigenous individuals but there were still notions of colorism, right? The darker the skin, don’t be out in the sun too much because not only is it bad for you but also you don’t want to be too dark-complected. So, a lot of those things that I took, I viewed different then, I look at now in the lens of how that can contribute to notions of anti-Blackness, right, and what that role looks like. And then, I’m a father of two young girls. And so, what is now my role as someone who can influence, particularly those in my own family, what those thoughts and ideas look like? How do I have and hold conversations with my children and social media, everything. Compared to when I was younger, you had to read the newspaper, watch television. There were only three news channels, right? Cable was satellite media, as I was getting a little bit older. So, there were only so many sources of news. Now, there are so many places where you can get information. And so, how do I structure those conversations or perhaps take opportunities to have conversations with them about these diverse issues, racially, or around sexual orientation, around gender, right? And I’ve been surprised. I mean, a lot of them have been reading books that have exposed them to a lot of concepts that I probably wouldn’t have been reading prior, because the authors weren’t writing about those topics, right, about gender fluidity or any of those things. They’re much more comfortable in using that language than I was at their age, at that time. I don’t know if I answered your question? It’s kind of long-winded. But those are just, I mean, just some initial thoughts about some of those movements and around social justice in general. Ford: Mm-hmm. You answered the question perfectly. Thank you. (chuckles) Lai: Okay. Ford: So, what role did you play in the creation of the Black Student Center? Lai: Yeah. Other than perhaps a cheerleading role on the sidelines—So, I’ll give you a little bit of history, just also for the purposes of this recording. You know, the Cross-Cultural Center is—not was, but is the first established now what’s called the Student Life Center. So, we were established in 2003. So, at the time, with no other Centers or spaces, we kind of had to do everything. And again, this wasn’t me. It was my predecessors, right? And so, once the Cross-Cultural Center—I think soon thereafter it was the Women’s Center, now currently called the Gender Equity Center, Pride Center. And then there was a huge gap, and probably within the last 5-7 years, the LatinX Center, and then most recently, the Black Student Center. So, my role has been as sort of a cheerleader of it. We had a student who worked as student staff. Her name is Chanel Bradley. She’s an alum of Cal State San Marcos. She revived the Black Student Union, BSU, during her time here. And she worked with Robert Aiello-Hauser who is the director of the LGBTQA Pride Center in a lot of those things. At the time, there were just the three: the Women’s Center, the Cross-Cultural Center, and the LGBTQA Pride Center. So, when I came in 2011, we overlapped. Chanel was I think in her second to last or last year, right? So, she was involved in developing. And since there wasn’t a Black Student Center at the time, I was sort of the support mechanism, right, along with some of the other Centers in providing support for the Black students. So, we played roles in supporting them programmatically, trying to work with them. If you were to come in person to the Cross-Cultural Center, I helped to develop things like, at the time when it was called Black History month, now it’s called Black Excellence month, but Black History month. And in my early couple of years being on campus, I was focused on how do we create space to celebrate or to discuss and talk about these issues. (starts to adjust his chair. Both laugh.) I’m sorry. My chair keeps sinking and I’m not doing anything, and so I keep having to adjust. So, my role was really more advisory, if that. Trying to play a support role. Trying to support our students. This is even before the establishment or the creation of a Black Student Center. I would say, then, after that, I still continued to have relationships supporting the Black Student Union. At the time, the Cross-Cultural Center was a subset of what was known then as the Student Life and Leadership or SLL. And SLL, now called the Student Leadership and Involvement Center or SLIC, was in charge of student organizations. So, I as the Cross-Cultural Center, had responsibility over some of the student cultural organizations, of which BSU was one. And so, that was where my relationship continued to build with them, trying to support them, do leadership, trying to support the students who were a part of that. Around that time, as the LatinX Center got some momentum and eventually was established, right, there were students in the Black Student Union who said, “Hey.” The argument one could say is, for the LatinX Center, the population at campus was almost 50%—it was pretty high—that identified as Hispanic or LatinX or Latino. And so, there was a need for resources and support. On the other side of the spectrum, and this is not to take away from Native American or American Indian students, Indigenous students, the second lowest were Black students, I think hovering around 2-3%. And so, students at the time had expressed an interest and desire to say, “We need a space too because there’s not enough of us.” It was not so much because there’s so many, but it was a lack of visibility and a lack of resources to recruit. And I came to learn later on, it was an issue with some of the reputation of the area, right, whether or not it’s a welcoming and inviting space, whether or not there was a critical mass of faculty or staff so students would feel like, yes, I want to come to Cal State San Marcos. So, my role was very much tangential, was very much on the outsides trying to support it, recognizing that students needed additional resources and support in order to be able to provide them a space to congregate, a space to be able to discuss about issues that are specific to the Black community. BSU did that, right, to some degree. It just wasn’t necessarily as organized or had the resources and the staffing and the dedicated time that I think John, the current director John, is able to put forth in helping to support that community, right? And so, that’s the extent off my experience in relation to the creation and establishment of the Center. It was truly student developed and student driven. They organized and decided that they wanted to create a space. They were going to go and make a demand to the president, President Haynes at the time, and were strategic about when and how to demand or ask, right, (chuckles) strategically about the need for this. And I would say President Haynes, at the time, I think it—I wouldn’t say caught her off guard. I think it was very impactful because now she was on the spot and she could also challenge them and say, “Okay. What are the needs? Tell me what you need. Draft a proposal.” So, she put it right back to the students. And so, the students then went to work and they said, “Okay. This is what needs to happen.” And then, with support from faculty and staff, the Black Student Center was eventually established here at Cal State San Marcos. Ford: So, you helped support everyone. (chuckles) Lai: Yeah. Yeah. Ford: So, what did the student staff involved in the creation of the Black Student Center feel like they needed directly? I know you went into a little detail about it, but is there anything? Lai: Yeah. I’m very aware and I’ve actually shared with student activists, I say I’m here to support but I’m also part of the institution. (laughs) So, I think they were savvy enough to know like okay, I can only share this much with Floyd. So, I don’t know all the details of the thing. What I recall though was some of the things that I shared with you, that there was a lack of visibility for Black students and therefore there was a sort of spiral effect because at least the argument at the time was if I don’t see people like myself or other Black students, why do I want to come here to Cal State San Marcos? There’s no place for me to feel like I belong. So, a sense of belonging was one. A sense of programming that was dedicated. I shared with you, prior to that, I put together a Black History Month event about being Black in America and we kind of cobbled together some programming that would talk about those issues. But I wasn’t Black, right? So, I relied heavily on Black faculty or staff or even the students, to come up with ideas and concepts that could speak to that experience. But again, I was from an outsider view. I’m not Black and I don’t have that experience so I can’t speak to it. And, probably, this is just my take on it, there’s not a sense of authenticity or even—credibility is not the right word, but just authority as a Black individual to say this is what we need. I was kind of like “Hey. How can we help put this together programmatically so that there’s some visibility.” But I wasn’t—again, not being Black myself. So, I think that was another piece, seeing some additional programming that spoke to the community as opposed to from an outsider lens trying to see and fill a void that was there. I think there was also a desire for just a space. I mean, I think that’s where it always stems from. And I’m very cautious too, because I think any time you advocate for a Center or a space, if your only argument is we need a space, okay, well what’s that space supposed to do? Because there is strength, obviously, in numbers. But you could hang out in the dining hall. You can hang out outside and carve out your own space. So, what is the need for a Center? And so, I think they wanted to look at resources, ways in which tied to student success, to graduation rates. So, those are some things that I think eventually made it into the initial proposal and/or if not part of the demands into the proposal. And, you know, I think students had a lot of support from faculty and staff, as far as hearing their concerns and then being able to articulate that in a way to eventually formulate the initial plans for the movement towards an establishment of the Black Student Center on campus. Ford: So, what did you think the university administration communicated was their vision for the Black Student Center? Lai: I think they communicated that there was a desire to have it. I don’t know if they necessarily dictated what it was going to be. In my experience, to some degree, I think that as an administrator you’re looking at every piece, right? Where is it going to be? I mean, just because the president of an institution or a university says “Yes, it’s going to happen” doesn’t mean all the answers are (next few words unintelligible due to poor reception) Yes, it’s going to happen. Now figure out how it’s going to work (unclear) I think there was a commitment or a desire to meet the students, what they’re wanting to have. And I’ll be the first to say I think students have a lot of power, more so than they often think, when it comes to political will and capital because—And not to say that just because you could do it, you should. But because there’s the desire there, they articulated a good reason for why there was a need for a Black Student Center that was compelling enough that I think that the institution said “Okay. We’re going to do that.” Right? And so, the commitment was yes, we’re dedicated to this. It’s one of our values. Now, whether or not and there’s going to be personalities and histories of whether or not you believe what the president is saying or doesn’t say or the rest of the administration, there was definitely a commitment though on the heels of a LatinX Center being established, that there was the need because these two populations, both the Brown and Black populations, had different systemic issues, right? Whether it was retention as I mentioned earlier, or student success when it came to graduation rates, there was a desire. And so, both of these Centers actually stemmed or started from a—and this gets too much into the nitty gritty, but they came up through Student Academic Support Services. And so, their focus was primarily on student success. Whereas for me, in the Cross-Cultural Center, Gender Equity Center, and Pride Center, we all came up through different ways. The Gender Equity and Pride Center or Women’s Center came up through Associated Students. And so, it was very much student driven, student funded, right? That was funding stream. The Cross-Cultural Center was established under Student Life, under this engagement in Student Activities, that kind of thing. And the Black Student Center, LatinX Center, came under Student Academic Support Services. Now, they all overlap in a lot of ways, but it was very targeted, right? When you think of Student Academic Support, you’re thinking testing materials, time management, skills that were necessary for student success. And so, I think those were some elements that there was a dedication to, right, by the institution, by the university. So, we want these spaces to fall under this area because we want to increase the student success of both Black communities as well as Latino communities. So, I think that was what was communicated and conveyed by the institution. The rest of the details were left up to the person in charge at the time, right, to develop and see through what that would look like. Currently—and I would say this is more recently—my current supervisor, the Associate Vice President of Student Life, Dr. Gail Cole-Avant—she came on probably around the same time, no, about a year or two after the Black Student Center. So, prior to that, we all reported to different people. And so, that also meant that there was different focus and different priorities for each of our spaces. And so, this reorganization with the Vice President of Student Affairs, Dr. Checa, to combine and create this new space where all the Centers were consolidated as a result of some external reviews was, I think, in a good way the university saying, “We need to do better. And this is our way to make sure that we are all aligned in moving forward,” because it kind of felt like we were going in three different directions, right, because ASI, Student Government, they have an agenda, a mission, a focus. My area around student leadership and student life is different. And then Black Student Center and the LatinX Center around student success and academics. So, they’re kind of different. They definitely overlap but they’re on different trajectories. By bringing them together, I think the institution is also saying that there’s a commitment to doing better, to moving towards success in aligning the resources, helping. We all support one another. We’re all staffs of one, to a certain degree. We rely heavily on graduate assistants and undergraduate students who work in our spaces. So, us leveraging and supporting one another I think provided a pathway to be able to move forward in a way that perhaps the Black Student Center wasn’t able to do prior. Ford: So, do you know of any pushback, internal or external, against the opening of the Black Student Center? Lai: You know, I think with any creation of new space where resources are being allocated, there are always going to be detractors and individuals who feel like is this the best use of our resources, right? I would say, from my lens where I was situated, there was not necessarily so much pushback per se as much as it was trying to understand what the purposes were, right? We knew we could have a Black Student Center. I was actually—just as far as my connection to the Center and I forgot about this—I was on the committee that selected the first director, right, or was invited to be a part of that. So, we knew at the time that the director was really going to set the stage, especially being the inaugural director for a brand-new space. This individual would have to articulate the vision ; would be able to link and connect with those that were on campus, both those that support it and perhaps even those that didn’t ; and be able to pool those resources together ; more importantly—and I think this was probably the priority—really build a rapport and a relationship with students, right, and student organizations because even if you build it, if they don’t come, then, you know—. So, you really need to help to let students know what is the purpose, why is it here, why it’s important, and to build those relationships. So, I would say that that was where our focus was. Outside of that, I don’t think that I was aware of. I wasn’t involved in any particular pushback. Was there? I’m sure there was, right? Others that may have said, I think—and it’s the same sort of trope—White students, and I use that broadly, right? But where is our White Center, right, because if you’ve got a LatinX Center, you’ve got a Black Student Center, where is the White Center? So, a lot of these things started coming through perhaps, right? Again, those were often funneled through the Office of Inclusive Excellence at the time. And so, I wasn’t necessarily a part of those sort of conversations or comments. But I will say that once a Center is established, then you start to get “Well, what about us? What about our Center? Where’s the Middle Eastern Center? Or where’s the Muslim Center, right, where we can pray? What about the Asian American Center, APIDA Center? What about the Jewish Center for the Jewish students on campus?” And so, I think it’s not so much pushback but it’s more of the “What about us now? What now?” Now that we’ve started this precedent, what does that mean? And so, I think there may have been obviously some conversations and discussions, maybe even some disagreements around that approach as well. But, beyond that, I didn’t necessarily hear any specific pushback to that because I think students had done a good job in I think articulating it. They had worked really closely with faculty. And also, the Black Faculty and Staff Association, they really helped to drive that home. So, I think, collectively, there was a desire to see that this would be successful. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, speaking of the opening, were you able to attend the grand opening? Lai: I try to remember. (laughs) That was a couple of years ago. I think I was in the back. And I don’t remember what year you are in school. Have you been? It’s on the 4th floor— Ford: Yeah, I’ve been. (chuckles) Yeah. Lai: —which is right by the stairwell. There’s not a lot of space and room in general, right? Ford: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lai: So, I think it was up there. They did a ribbon cutting ceremony up there. I recall being kind of in the back (indicates behind him with both arms) because there’s only so much space you can have, right, in front, of where it was. And that’s my recollection because I think there was a photo that I saw on a website way back when, when it was first established, or there may still be one in the archival footage, of the first director and then also with President Haynes doing some ribbon cutting and ceremonial things with the Center. But, after that, the first, his name was Anthony Jett. I, along with some of the other directors for the Centers, we all collaboratively work together. And so, I would have opportunities, right, to connect with the first director in trying to figure out programmatically different ideas, different approaches, and ways to look at the situation and how we can ensure the success of the Center. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, how did it feel the first time you visited the Center? You have any (last word unintelligible) Lai: Yeah. Well, so I’ve been here long enough that, you know, that space prior—there was some work that had to be done. That used to be the meditation stress-free zone, I guess. It was meant to be a prayer space, initially. So, it has undergone some renovation. But if you ever go up to the bathroom that’s right there as well—because there used to be a display case—and so they had removed it and created space so the folks could actually access it. There’s a gender-neutral bathroom or single stall use bathroom up there. But you’ll notice it’s different from others because there’s actually a—oh, I’m forgetting what the Islamic term is for it—but a wash station. So, you can sit. And so, the intent was that for those, particularly those, of our Muslim faith that we had a dedicated space for spirituality, prayer. Sometimes, it was a nap space, right, but for meditation. So, it was converted from that. And so, it’s right above the Cross-Cultural Center when you look at the specs. They did a really great job with the small amount of space that was there, right? I would say also, too—and being all transparent as well—having a space is important. Where the space is located is also important. So, we ran out of room on the 3rd floor. There was no other way to chop up. The LatinX Center got wedged in between the Cross-Cultural Center and the Gender Equity Center. It used to be called the Social Justice—It was meant to be a training space, and they made (words cut off. Maybe “it into”?) the LatinX Center, right? And in the same vein, we can’t have a Black Student Center halfway across the campus. It has to all be in the same space, but we ran out of room. So, it’s on the 4th floor. And so, the fact that they converted it, I mean it’s a beautiful space. You have nice views. You can see it. It’s a small space, right? It can get crowded real quickly, especially if you get a critical mass, like a lot of our spaces, but just in general. And it’s right up on the top so there’s a lot of visibility as folks are walking past and go through. What I will say, though— and this is something that I think all Centers and spaces struggle with—if you see a community of people in the space, there’s always this question of do I belong here or don’t I, right? And so, I did hear early on, right, some of the challenges were “Oh, I’m not Black. I can’t go in the space. (chuckles) Should I set foot inside?” Even though if you want to learn about—Just because it’s called the Black Student Center, it’s focused on Black issues and other things that affect the Black community, but it’s not limited to individuals who identify as Black. And so, that has always been a tension, right, when it comes to who can come into the space, who’s allowed to step through the doors. Do I feel comfortable? Some of that we, as directors of our spaces, we try to make it as inviting as much as we can. But, ultimately, it’s up to that student to step through that door (chuckles) and take that step to go inside that space. So, you know, it was a beautiful space. They had a great computer lab, self-publish stations. It was very tiny so there was one office and one desk. There was a small kitchenette and other things that you would normally want to see in a student-centered space for individuals. So, yeah, it was an exciting time. I would say, like any new spaces on campus, we want to make sure that they’re successful. And people hung out there. I will say, right, so just being in the Cross-Cultural Center and as these spaces have evolved and developed, people that we normally would have seen previously in some of our spaces then started to go and gravitate, right? So, if there were Black individuals who at one point prior hung out in the Cross-Cultural Center, they now felt like—well, I don’t know if they felt like, but I would maybe see them upstairs now, right? I would have to go upstairs to connect with them versus before they would be just be right behind me, whether on couches or something like that. I could just say, “Hey, how’s it going?” and connect with them. So, that’s all part of the shift that I think that happened with student spaces, and where you feel comfortable, where you feel like you belong. And those are always dynamic, and they change, depending on the students when they come in and how they pass on orally (next few words are cut off) . . . students hang out. And then, all of a sudden you start to get some of these myths about where people should or shouldn’t be with regard to that. Ford: So, can you tell me a little bit about the early focus of the Black Student Center’s programs, and different initiatives that they did during the day? Lai: Yeah. What I recall—and, again, I wasn’t integral in the design, because Anthony Jett, the first director, really dictated a lot of that, but in my conversations with him there were a few themes that I recognized, right? One, I think, was leveraging the experience of the community in North County, which—I don’t think North County—Not to say that there aren’t Black communities, but it’s not predominantly an area regionally known for that. And so, part of it was establishing relationships. So, I want to say the NAACP has a chapter, I think, in North County or maybe in Vista or nearby. Mira Costa has centers or spaces. And so, Mira Costa does a Martin Luther King, Jr. Day of Service, right, for example, which at our campus we don’t do. We have Cesar Chavez, at the time. We do now. And so, there were—I think, Anthony, some of his first parts were really establishing those relationships because, again, there had not been a Black Student Center prior. And so, those relationships weren’t necessarily there, or the focus and taking the time to focus on those relationships weren’t necessarily there. I also think that, wherever possible, the director would try to help with recruitment. So, when we think about outreach on our campus, oftentimes these occur seventh, eighth grade, maybe high school. And so, he would spend a lot of his time either going to high school or conferences or fairs to try and let them know about the fact that there was a Black Student Center and that, yes, there are Black students and a Black community, even though it’s small, at Cal State San Marcos. It was establishing relationships with organizations like the NAACP or other institutions. It was really getting involved in the community. And that’s something, I think from what I observed, was something he spent a lot of his time doing, right? Secondary to that, and that’s where we often connected, was the programmatic nature of what was the focus and what was it going to look like. And he—and I’m forgetting what his affiliation is—but he was part of one of the Divine Nine. It may have been Omega Psi, Omega Phi? I haven’t been on campus, so my Greek is—Omega Psi Phi, I think it is, one of the Black fraternities. He himself was a member, so he built relationships, right, and brought on the fraternity and helped in those efforts, strengthened those pieces with regard to community, tried to have programming with students and work collaboratively with the Black Student Union. Student organizations, they ebb and flow (laugh) depending on who the leadership is. Sometimes, they’re really strong and sometimes people are busy and so there’s not a lot of traction. So, whatever the leadership was at the time, I think he tried to forge relationships with them as well. So yeah, I think those were the efforts. I think also knowing, and I shared with you early on, when I came on and there was no other Center and space, I primarily drove a lot of the History Months or the Heritage Months. And so, with the establishment of the Black Student Center now, there could be a focus. And that became their responsibility or purview to some degree, if they wanted to do programming or things like that and how they might be able to support community, create community, create opportunities for folks to gather. Those were all efforts that I think Black History Month, Black Excellence Month now, those are some of the programming efforts and focus that he was in charge of. I want to say he started in August, in the summer, so he had a really quick pivot time to try and get going because usually with planning like this, for any programming, a couple months in advance you want to be there. So, he was scrambling, not only trying to build those relationships, but also create some sort of programming that would work. So, we often would leverage and say, “Oh yeah. We’ve got this program. Let’s support one another,” or things like that, in helping to move that work forward and increasing the visibility of the Center and space. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, current, and previously, have there been any collaborative efforts between the Cross-Cultural Center and the Black Student Center? Lai: There have. I mentioned earlier, more recently, I would say we have looked at different ways to view those collaborations. So, first and foremost, the Cross-Cultural Center does a program called the Social Justice Summit which is a weekend retreat to talk about issues of social justice, to explore identity. How does that connect with the choices and decisions we make to look at power and privilege? And then, it’s a three-day conference, so by the last day of the summit/retreat, we are looking at what does that mean? How do we become an ally? So, all the Centers, including the Black Student Center once they came online, were all invited collaborators with that sort of social justice programming. It’s not only signature programs but it’s also a way that all of us intersect across our different programming areas. So, that’s definitely one area that I would say he was invited to. But again, he had so much on his plate, I don’t know if we were necessarily able to leverage that at the time when he first came onboard with the Black Student Center. Since then—and I’ll speak probably more recently and actually this is going to be tomorrow—we are doing a program tomorrow called Beyond Just Us: Empathy and Justice Across Communities, and that’s a collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and the Black Student Center. Now, that has also been a shift in our space. And I know we’re not talking about the Cross-Cultural Center, but we started to do more programming in the absence of an Asian Pacific Islander Desi American-dedicated space. And that’s not us. We have a lot of students who identify, that hang out in our space: Filipino, Chinese, otherwise. But, in the absence of an actual space, we’re doing programming because there’s still going to be a need for that. So, that’s a program defining diaspora, APIDA identities. That’s a program series we do within our space. And in light of the recent assaults and attacks on Asian American communities, and sometimes by perpetrators who were perceived as Black, we’ve seen an increase in the solidarity marches and/or the ways in which both of these communities have come together, right? And so, Chamorro (Cultural Festival) is an example of where we’re looking at what does that intersectionality look like between Asian and Black communities? What has that history been, right? In the description, we talk about this trope. I don’t know when you were born, Ayana, but I was in high school during the 1992 riots, Rodney King, when the policemen were acquitted and the aftermath of all that, or actually leading up to all that, right, what happened as a result of his beating. And at the time—again, so this goes back to your very first question about my lens and stuff in high school—that was probably another point, just looking at those relationships because I remember having arguments with my Korean friends like “Why are you going to L.A.?” I’m not anti-gun. I’m not a fan of having any firearms in general, right? That’s not for me to deal with. And I remember having heated conversations with them about why are you going to Korea Town. Just stay safe! And they’re like “No. This is our livelihood, so we need to protect ourselves.” Well, anyway, there was this trope. There was this “It’s Black against Asian,” right, because L.A., and then if you go to Korea Town, those are the businesses that were being looted or specifically targeted. And so, that trope has reemerged again, right? “Oh, these attacks against Asian American communities, they’re all perpetrated by Black people.” And so, there’s this thing where, again, looking at White supremacy in a broader context, things that I’m starting to learn more about now, that it’s pitting two different groups against one another rather than looking at the larger issues and systemic issues that are happening that are shared across both communities. And so, because of that, that’s what we’re going to be exploring a little bit tomorrow, right, is kind of demystifying that trope, recognizing where each of these communities have some commonality, where they can stand in solidarity, how we can feel like we can be empathetic but also be accountable, right, to those things, and the complicated histories, right? I talk about how Asian Americans can sometimes perpetuate that notion of anti-Blackness. So, what is our role in that, and then where does that apply when the perceived perpetrators are they themselves Black, right? It’s not about blaming but looking at the bigger picture. So, that’s just another more current example, yet to happen tomorrow, that we’re going to be putting on. And I look forward to possibly great relationships now with John being the current director and because of the structures that I mentioned earlier in our conversation, where we work more closely together than we have previously. We’re being able to see more opportunities to collaborate and to do some programming between the Black Student Center and the Cross-Cultural Center, and that it’s more targeted, right? Another one that didn’t happen this year but perhaps the next year—one thing that we do in the Cross-Cultural Center to differentiate ourselves from some of the other spaces is we have a focus on advocacy and activism. What does that look like? We’re not going to dictate, this is how you are an activist or not, (laughs) you’re an activist. But we do believe that I think students need to know about what are some models. What are some strategies? What are—you know, protests are important, and it definitely has a place in creating change. It’s not the only way to create change. It’s the most visible way, and I think oftentimes students and others conflate that if I’m going to be an activist, I have to be out on the streets. (laughs) And so, we’re trying to provide different venues and avenues for exploring what activism and advocacy looks like. Also, as a tangent—and this goes back, sort of connected—but I’ve been a part of my professional associations and I went to conferences, and one of the things that struck me was that when a lot of these Black Lives Matter protests were occurring, it was a student who was at Stanford. He was an engineer. He was a Black student. But he talked about “I go to these protests, and I got arrested. I wasn’t expecting to be arrested, but I got arrested. And then, the rest of the semester, I had to deal with going to court, working with my lawyer,” all these things that, in the moment, he hadn’t thought about necessarily, or maybe he thought about but he didn’t think it all the way through. And so, those were all things that caused me to think about “Okay, we need to do more to help educate our students so that it’s not like ‘Hey, come with me. We’re going to go do this.’” It’s more like “Okay. If you are going to go protest and you might get arrested, what are some practical things you should know about before you go there, right?” all those things. Anyway. So, having said that—that was a lot—we, as part of that program of the Activist Lab, which is another program series we do—we were going to explore the legacy of John Lewis. So, this year, in particular, the library has—their read is the book They Came for Us, by George Takei, which is a graphic novel, and the power of graphic novels. And so, March, the book by John Lewis, is a three-part book, talks and illustrates similarly and actually was inspiration, I believe, for the George Takei book, They Came for Us. So, we were going to work with the Black Student Center, going all the way back to your first question for that collaboration, of trying to do a book discussion about March, right? What was John Lewis’s legacy? How did he, at his young age, decide to do what he did when it came to protesting and sitting in diners where he wasn’t supposed to be? So, again, this was just through a lens of trying to understand strategies, looking at models or individuals who could be models of what activism looks like and how do they come to those decisions. But we needed to postpone that, but that’s another example of a program where we worked with the Black Student Center or will be working with the Black Student Center in identifying programmatic opportunities and connections. And there will continue to be opportunities because very much all of our work is very intersectional in nature. We all believe that I’m not just an Asian identified individual. I’m male. I’m heterosexual or straight, right? All those identities impact one another and sometimes they coincide with some of these other spaces like the LatinX Center or the Black Student Center. Ford: Mm-hmm. Lai: Yeah. Ford: I look forward to hearing more about those programs. Lai: Yeah. (laughs) Ford: So, do you know why the Black Student Center was moved from Student Success to Student Life? Lai: Yes. I think part of it was, again, a restructuring to leverage resources. I think there was—I won’t get too much into it, but I reported up to the Vice President of Student Affairs, Dr. Lorena Checa. However, we all reported differently to different supervisors. And so, that in and of itself causes—so, I may have a different focus or approach than Student Success has an approach, right? And so, we just had different ways in which we’re doing it— (reception starts to become very choppy) Ford: Can you hold off one second? (seems to be trying to figure out how to improve reception) Lai: —instead of going in three different directions, we feel like we’re all going in the same direction. Oh, sure. Ford: So, why was the Black Student Center moved from the Student Success to Student Life? Lai: Yes. My short answer would be that it was a leveraging of resources. Whereas reporting to three different associate vice presidents, by going to a singular associate vice president or supervisor, and then to the vice president of student affairs, we are in lockstep to some degree. We still have a lot of autonomy but we’re moving in the same direction, whereas before we may have been going in three different directions because we each had a supervisor who may have had a different approach or had a thought about what we should be prioritizing. Consolidating those efforts, in my estimation, has helped us to really focus in on what is it that collectively, all five of us, how do we tell our story? Where are there areas for overlap, collaboration, or opportunities that we previously connected with? And we want to collaborate. The campus, by nature, we just tend to be collaborative in general, but even more so now. We can leverage the fact that we all have the same supervisor, the same area. We all have a similar basic mission now around this notion of student life in moving forward. Now, Student Success is a part of Student Life. It all, again, overlaps in a lot of ways. But having a singular supervisor, in my estimation, helps us to move that more successfully and hopefully make bigger strides in progressing and moving our individual agendas or our approaches more effectively and efficiently. Ford: Mm-hmm. Okay. So, what are some of the wrinkles that needed to be ironed out during the opening of the Center? Lai: I think same as anyone else, how people could fit. Who’s going to fit? (chuckles) When we could have food, do we have enough food for everyone? How much is that going to cost? Are people going to come? Are they not going to come? How do we ensure success? What is success defined as? I think those are all part of the wrinkles. We all have a blueprint for what we hope will happen, but the wrinkles are really the details in trying to figure out what needs to happen, how to ensure that those things are happening. Those are some of the early ones, I think, more than anything. Just like any new Center or space, you’ve got to publicize. And it’s funny. You could be screaming from the top. You could have a million signs— (laughs) Ford: Mm-hmm. (nods) Lai: —on the door that tell you exactly what’s going on and you still will have people go “Oh, what’s this?” Right? Because people are just not in that frame of mind. And in the same vein, you could be screaming from the rooftops, “We have a Black Student Center!” and you’ll inevitably have a student that goes “Oh. I didn’t know that we had it.” (laughs) Getting yourself visible, letting folks know about it, helping them understand what the initial purpose is, who is it for? I heard stories, and these were probably from Black students, they’d be sitting there, and people would be walking and tiptoeing by the door. They’d look inside and they would keep walking, right? Like “Is this where I’m supposed to— Can I come in?” And these were also Black students, maybe even too, to some degree, right? So, just those experiences and hesitancies, I think, are all part of the wrinkles that were a part of that sort of opening to some degree. Our program as well, in the first year, we were trying to establish what is the . . . What are the needs of the students? How do I meet those needs and ensure that this is a place that they would want to come back to? Those are all wrinkles, I think, that I think early on needed to be worked . . . And why—all the more reason that any inaugural director has a huge burden to try and lift, right, when you’re the first of any (technical difficulties) because it’s freeing as there’s no precedent. It doesn’t feel like you have to step up to anything. But at the same time there’s no real benchmark either for what that’s like (technical difficulties) And so, those are all the wrinkles and things that people sorted through in the early days of the Black Student Center. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, what do you feel like the main purpose of the creation of the Center was? I knew you went into a little bit of detail on that before, but in your opinion. Lai: Yeah. I think that there is an acknowledgment and a desire that spaces like these can be helpful in supporting students in their efforts (technical difficulties) I feel like (technical difficulties) just as they need to be able to move forward. There are ways in which that can be manifest. There are different models. I came from a—I told you about the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine where I did my undergrad and then eventually worked for a couple of years. They were established in the early ‘70s, but then higher education has gone through budget cuts and then sometimes it does well. So, there’s a lot of these cycles. And there was a moment in time where “We don’t have money. So, we’re going to consolidate everything. And then, we’ll have specialists,” right? And then, there’s other times where it’s like they see it’s a dedicated space, right? And so, I think we go through cycles like that. And so, I think regardless of the efforts that I may have tried to do or contribute, either in supporting the student organization, I wasn’t Black, you know. And that’s not a dig and saying that you have to be in order to. I just didn’t really have that perspective or experience. And so, I think there was a need to have a Center or a space dedicated, especially in light of Black Lives Matter and a lot of these things that are issues that are more complex and complicated that I think require those people to be able to—And even then (next few words unintelligible due to reception) that’s of value for any particular challenge. So, I think there’s that. There was the fact that students wanted it, right? And there was a desire for that. And so, we want to support students in those efforts. But we also want to make sure that students are doing it thoughtfully and not, as I said, just because they want a space. They need to be able to justify why. And I think they were able to articulate that there was a need. So, to me, that’s the reason why I think a Black Student Center needed to exist. There was not enough programming or attention being paid to the issues that the Black community needed to address at Cal State San Marcos. And so, the Black Student Center helped to fill that void to some degree (technical difficulties) individuals who focused their specifically on the needs of the Black community and how to move those efforts forward. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, do you think that purpose has been accomplished? Lai: I think it’s in process. I think that we’re moving in the right direction. I believe so. I think all those things I mentioned about our students coming, how do we generate those. Because students come every year, right, and cycle through every four years, in a lot of ways because people that are coming in don’t always have the context or the history. And so, I think it can feel repetitive but for the student who has never been there, it’s the first time they’re hearing this information and what the purpose of the Black Student Center might be. And so, to your question, yes, they are accomplishing it. I feel like they’re moving in that direction. I think that they’re building community. I feel like we’re there tackling and connecting with spaces like mine across (technical difficulties) the Cross-Cultural Center (technical difficulties) to really (technical difficulties) because there are so many (technical difficulties) you know, or if you are Black from Africa versus Black in the United States. All of those things I think are part of that direction and effort of what the Black Student Center is trying to accomplish. And so, I believe, yes, they are moving in the right direction, and there’s always going to be opportunities to do better. But I feel confident that they’re making strides. The fact that we get a chance to talk about the oral history and talking about the history of the Center is a positive step in the right direction, to acknowledge its origins and also perspective on what its impact has been on Cal State San Marcos. And, for me, that means that if you have the ability to go back and reflect, that means you kind of have a good . . . because early on, it’s hard to know where you want to go when you don’t know where you’ve been, is something I learned from a mentor. And so, history, context has been such a part of my own professional development. And so, I was excited and why I was “Oh, yeah. I want to sign up. I want to be a part of this project,” because these pieces are helpful for future generations to understand what it was, why it was created, why it should be continued or why I think they should continue to fight for its existence in the future, regardless of whatever may happen in the future. Ford: So, how did the Black Student Center opening impact you personally? Lai: I was excited for it. I think I could see individuals, as I mentioned, who maybe hung out in our spaces prior really excited and really happy that they had a space that they felt like they could call their own, right? Again, not to say they couldn’t come downstairs and hang out in the Cross-Cultural Center, but a space that they feel like they had a connection to. Very much like when I shared with you my own personal experience with (technical difficulties) race formational center because I was going through this sort of with my own identity development. I saw very much in them what I saw in myself many, many years ago at UC Irvine, that they felt like they had a place that they felt a direct connection to. It wasn’t necessarily transactional. It wasn’t like “I’m just here to use the computer.” It was a space where they could go and they could find community, where they could be themselves. And I didn’t say this but where you could go and be yourself without having to explain yourself to anyone else, if that makes sense, right? (technical difficulties) a lot of places where there’s a lot of diverse people and then people ask you questions and you’re like “Okay. I’ve got to talk about that again,” versus you go to spaces like a Black Student Center if you’re Black in particular, and people just get you, right? There’s not a what? Why? What? You know, it’s just they get you. So, I think I saw that energy being—and I still see it now, right, with the students that decide or choose to be a part of those spaces. And so, that’s kind of (technical difficulties), that I’ve observed and seen. Anytime there’s a new space that is focused on the wellbeing and success of student populations, particularly those that are marginalized, I think I’ve come to appreciate and be optimistic that those spaces can serve a greater purpose, right, and how they can help students in their own personal development much like the Cross-Cultural Center did for me when I was at UC Irvine. Ford: So, with how everything is, what would you expect next to see from the Black Student Center? Lai: That’s a great question. That’s a John (Rawlins III), the director, question. I guess what I would hope to see is opportunities to engage in broader conversations, right, of what Blackness looks like in the many other spaces or other communities. I would love to see a large number of students get (technical difficulties) and come into Cal State San Marcos as their first choice, not necessarily just because there’s a Black Student Center, but because there’s a sense that the Cal State San Marcos campus is dedicated to Black excellence, is dedicated to the success of students, and it’s demonstrated because the students have this. It’s one of multiple pieces, right? But it can play an integral piece in the cocurricular experience that students have. I’m in Student Affairs and what that means is that I look at the co-curriculum, what happens outside of the classroom. There’s a lot that happens inside the classroom, but I often believe that if they have a great experience outside of the classroom, those narratives, those anecdotes, those stories supplement what they learn in the classroom, right? There’s this theory. How does this thing—? You’re like, “Well, I have experienced that. Can I translate that into better experiences?” So, it’s the cycle and there is some reciprocity. What happens inside the classroom, what happens outside the classroom, there’s a symbiotic relationship. And so, I look forward to a time when the Black Student Center can continue to play a critical role in those efforts for our Black students at Cal State San Marcos. I guess long term, and optimistically, I hope that like “Oh my gosh. They got an amazing Black Student Center at Cal State San Marcos.” And so, that definitely is going to be the reason why I want to be able to go there, right? They’ve got some amazing programs or initiatives that are unique or novel. They look at it a little bit differently. They’re very creative, right? That you wouldn’t necessarily (technical difficulties) I think those are things that I look forward to, right? I’m also aware of the fact that our current structure—John is the only director (chuckles) ; there’s a lot of us who help—that it's not his burden to bear alone, if that makes sense, right? Just like when we talk about issues of diversity or issues of inclusive excellence, it’s not just a diversity people. It’s not the people of color’s responsibility alone. Everyone has to play a role. And so, in that same vein, the Black Student Center’s success will also hinge on my ability to provide and support them and help them to be successful in my own contributions, whether it’s being a part of this, finding ways to assist them and help them in their efforts, defending them when necessary, when people go “Why do we need a Black Student Center?” and helping to foster and build a stronger community together. Ford: So, are there any other questions that I haven’t asked that I could or which you want to add or anything else? Lai: No. It was pretty thorough. I was curious because as I was hearing about the oral history project, I know we talked about it. I said, “Okay, you want to send me the questions?” And you’re like “Oh, no. It’s just going to be a conversation.” So, I had no idea what the questions are going to be. And so, I was like “Why do they care what my childhood was like?” (both laugh) Because this is for the Black Student Center Oral History Project. But I appreciate those questions, and--and motivations, right, for my connection to the Black Student Center. In my self defense, I am someone or co-conspirator to some degree, someone who wants to create positive change in the community. I’m still doing the work every day and trying to figure out what I could do better each time, what to do differently, right, in a way that hopefully is helpful. I still learn from John, the director, and help support him. So, yeah. So, thank you so much— Ford: Thank you so much for letting me interview you. That was a wonderful— Lai: —for the opportunity. (I don’t have) anything else to add other than yeah, for the opportunity to share with you and to get to know you better, or at least partially, right? (both laugh) Ford: Thank you so much. Lai: Of course, Ayana. I think that’s it for me, right? Is there any other questions or no? Ford: No. Lai: We’re good? Ford: Yeah. Lai: Okay. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LaiFloyd_FordAyana_04-19-21_Access.xml LaiFloyd_FordAyana_04-19-21_Access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lai, Floyd. Interview, April 19, 2021 Description An account of the resource Floyd Lai was the director CSUSM's Cross-Cultural Center from 2011 - 2023, where he engaged with students and their social justice and activism. Lai attended the University of California Irvine before coming to Cal State San Marcos. Lai saw the growth of the Black Student Center, and helped it grow by supporting and aiding students. In this interview, Lai also discusses his life and childhood. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-03 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Racism -- California -- Irvine Student success University of California Irvine. Cross-Cultural Center Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-19 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Floyd Lai Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Irvine (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Floyd Lai Activists and activism Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e6e8a1a710f12916198b024ac063e270.pdf 7c322713ce91543e8e7a18642d09ec22 PDF Text Text LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 Ayana Ford: So, today is Monday, April 19th, 2021, at 1:02 p.m. I am Ayana Ford, a student at San Marcos and today I’m interviewing Floyd Lai for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration between CSUSM Black Student Center and the CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Mr. Lai, thank you for being here with me today. Floyd Lai: Pleasure. Thank you, Ayana. Ford: I’d like to start by talking about your childhood a little bit. When and where were you born? Lai: I was born on the island of Oahu in Kahuku in Hawaii, and that was in 1974. Ford: Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood? Lai: Sure. My parents are immigrants, originally from Taiwan. I am the oldest of three sons, three boys. We moved around. My parents initially settled in Hawaii, and then we moved to Idaho, and then eventually to southern California by the time I was six. I have lived in California since about 1980, so pretty much consider myself a native in the sense of being in southern California for the majority of my lifetime. And I would say it was a pretty ordinary, I guess, childhood in the sense that, again, being the oldest of three boys, there were obviously some cultural components in the roles and responsibilities of what that entailed, being the eldest. I also had responsibility over my two younger brothers as well, just with regard to how we were growing up, and it was pretty common as far as an immigrant experience, keeping in mind both of my parents worked. And I think, at an early age, I—there’s a term that was called, not necessarily pejorative but it was a latch key kid. So, I had a key around my neck so that when I would walk home from school, I’d be able to get inside the house, and pretty much had responsibility for my brothers from an early age as well. Ford: I know that. I’m the youngest, so— [both laugh] So, how did that help you come to an understanding of your culture at all? How did your childhood help you come to understand your culture? Lai: Yeah. You know, I would say it was a part of my upbringing in the sense that it guided and dictated—and it was just par for the course, meaning that outside of any influence or education about some of the histories that we learn about at school, it was just part of my upbringing, right? So, being from a Chinese immigrant family, eating Chinese food, right? [chuckles] Everything was just taken as something that was innate and part of the way in which I was raised. I would say that the first instance that I recognized or noticed that perhaps I was different from others was probably not until my middle school years, in the sense that I think first through sixth in elementary school, the community in which I grew up—I grew up in Rowland Heights, California, which is in Los Angeles County. At the time, it was relatively pretty diverse, but I think the friends that I had were of different backgrounds, different ethnicities, different races. And as time progressed and if you were to go back to that community now, there has been a huge influx of immigration, particularly from China and Taiwan because of institutions, like there’s a large Buddhist temple in the adjoining city in Hacienda Heights, and we’ve seen some of the demographic shifts and changes. So, growing up in middle school was probably where I started noticing and gravitating towards individuals who were much like myself, who were also of Asian background or identity or descent. I was on the seventh grade, eighth grade basketball team. And Transcribed by Melissa Martin 1 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 so, I would say that probably was my first introduction to other races, like Black individuals or Mexicans or Latinos at the time. But I didn’t necessarily have a good understanding of the differences when it came to race and ethnicity until very much later, probably not until I graduated from high school and got into college and started taking classes and/or having discussions about that. Ford: So, to follow up on that, during your childhood and adolescence, were you taught about Black history and the Black community? Lai: You know, the extent of that probably was Martin Luther King, Jr., right?; Black History month, limited to just the month of February. My earliest recollection—I think I may have done research on George Washington Carver, right? Learning about, I think it was peanut butter or a lot of, I think, the stories and notions of Black history that was primarily in our history books, right? And it was all the positive portrayals, right, or images of things and people, right? Obviously, since then and more recently with different projects like, I’m blanking. Is it the 1692 Project or things that are in the media now that talk about slavery and other things, right? My recollection of that when I was in elementary, middle, or even high school was maybe a short chapter, if that, on slavery and the Civil War, but never necessarily through a Black lens or a portrayal beyond just the significant notables like Martin Luther King, Jr., maybe some musicians, Louis Armstrong, things that we would hear about or note, but there was never an extended conversation about that. I played basketball, as I mentioned, in seventh and eighth grades. So, I knew Black students or teammates of mine. We didn’t necessarily hang out. We just played our basketball games and whatnot. But that was really the extent of it. So, we played basketball on the same team, but then beyond that, our circles didn’t necessarily overlap, one with another. Ford: So, after you came to San Marcos, how did that change? Prior to your coming here to San Marcos. Lai: Yeah. Coming to San Marcos as a staff member, I’ve had more—I’ve been out here at Cal State San Marcos for the last ten years. Prior to that, I worked at UC Irvine for about six years. And then, even before that, I graduated in 2000 from undergraduate, UC Irvine as well. That’s where I did my undergraduate program in environmental engineering. So, I was on a track or trajectory to go into engineering, in the engineering field. My first notion, I think in a broader sense, was in my undergraduate experience at UC Irvine. Well, so from a personal experience as an Asian American, Chinese American man, I have shared this story with others when I do workshops and presentations. But my first introduction to a personal impact was—I forget the year. I want to say 1995 or ‘6, per se. I was the recipient, on the receiving end at the time, of a hate incident through email. So, myself and others, back in the day—this is when the internet was still [laughs] kind of coming out—you had to go to a lab to jump on and connect. And there were localized areas and whatnot. But I received an email essentially saying, “I’m going to kill all you eff’in Asians. You ruin the curve,” things like that, that really started me on a trajectory and path to really be more reflective about my own personal identity as a Chinese, Asian American man. You know, “I just got this. What is this? Not sure,” you know. Come to find out later on, it was a student who obviously felt the need or desire to broadcast this message, this hateful message, to whomever was in the lab at the time. And the way he identified folks was if Transcribed by Melissa Martin 2 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 they had an Asian sort of sounding last name. And those that were there, myself included, were the lucky recipients of that. So, that started me on a trajectory, just kind of where I am today. I mean I think that would be a critical, pivotal point in the work that I do within multicultural affairs, and doing the work that I do in the Cross-Cultural Center. It was a personal moment where I started thinking why was I the recipient? What caused this, right? To think about issues in terms of race. And it’s through that soul searching and connections to the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine that I got involved. Then I said I wanted to explore that a little bit more. I was involved in various clubs. I was part of the Hawaii club. I’m not myself native Hawaiian, but it was something. I was born there, and it was something that I gravitated towards. And it was through those interactions that I started getting involved and going to programming with the Cross-Cultural Center at that space and Center, which I eventually got to work at prior to coming here to Cal State San Marcos, when I worked there for about six years. I got introduced to the Black Student Union, right? MECHA which is a student organization that often helps to—We call them umbrella organizations. They are the political, social wing of the experiences at UC Irvine at the time: Asian Pacific Student Association; again, these larger groupings. And so, I worked at the Center as a volunteer initially, then as an intern, and then I was involved in a program called REACH. They’ve changed their name since, but it was called Reaffirming Ethnic Awareness, Community, Harmony. So, I learned about workshops. I got really deeply involved in understanding, for example, the different experiences within the various communities, whether it was the Asian community, the Black community, the LatinX community—LatinX wasn’t a term at the time, right—so, the Latino community, and the different sort of experiences. I would say also during that time at UC Irvine was the first time I took an Asian—So, I was an engineer. So, that was my trajectory and pathway. It’s very fixed. You can’t deviate too much, right? Ford: Yeah. Lai: You know, you’ve got your sciences classes. You’ve got your engineering classes. But, on occasion, I had the ability to take some of electives. And so, one of the electives I chose was an Asian American Studies class which was helpful for me, as well, as I was just trying to get into and understanding of some of those issues and areas. So, between my experience at the CrossCultural Center at UC Irvine, some of the classes I was able to take, the interactions that I had, obviously hanging out at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine, I got to meet the leaders of the Black Student Union from the American Indian Student Association. These were folks that I was able to run in circles or I would see on a regular basis. They had retreats and other opportunities for student leadership exposure. And so, that’s where I was able to expand and grow my experience. And at the time I wasn’t sure if I was going into the field of higher education that I am in now. It was just something that was supplementary to understanding some of those things at that time in my own personal development, of my own identity, and in relation to other people. Ford: So, as you mentioned before, you had talked a little bit about how the different movements were. How has Black social justice and activism such as Civil Rights Movement, Feminism, and Black Lives Matter Movement affected you? Lai: Yeah. I would say that’s a more recent, and I would say it’s an ongoing, evolutionary progression for me, right? Let me start more recently and maybe work backward. I would say this past summer, last summer, with George Floyd—And, again, he was not the first and nor was Transcribed by Melissa Martin 3 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 he the last, as we’ve seen more recently with the continued impacts of anti-Black racism occurring. I would say, however though, that that coupled with the pandemic and other things, right, I think galvanized. And we saw our country and nation as a whole get to a turning point, right? And so, that’s something that I would say is the strong notion of anti-racism, of anti-Black racism particularly, and how it’s situated within the context of my understanding of racism and discrimination broadly, was really galvanized there. The Black Lives Matter Movement I know occurred a couple of years earlier, right, with Ferguson and some of those things. So, there has been a steady, I think, beat in my own personal understanding in history of the Black experience and where I fit and situate, right? I often felt as if I was a bystander to some degree, someone who’s looking outside looking in and trying to understand but, obviously, not recognizing those experiences personally. And there’s a certain level of privilege in that too, right? So, because I’m not Black and I don’t have to go through some of those things, I have the luxury of not having to worry about those things, right? So, yes, it’s horrible. Yes, it’s awful. And I felt a lot of empathy for situations and crises like this. And why does this continue to occur? But I would say that, going back to George Floyd, that was a pivotal point in my own personal experience in recognizing—one, because I mean my first name is Floyd, so it was weird hearing so-and-so was on the neck of Floyd. And so, there was this kind of weird connection as well, because his last name just happens to be my first name. And so, there was almost this personal connection now because I would see Floyd in narratives and things like that about the experiences with police. And so, it was very personalizing in that way. So, I think that, and then going back to Black Lives Matter, I would say my background and trajectory and pathway, especially in this field of social justice work, I was never—compared to probably some of my colleagues—I was never a super activist, right? I wasn’t out there chanting or demonstrating. There were a few times I was part of marches or walks, but nothing that felt very heavily involved. Part of the reason why is because I think, also personally, my purpose was I’m going to get an engineering degree. This is all nice but that’s not my focus. And then, as I came to my own sort of personal consciousness and awakening myself, I started to see how education could be an opportunity to better understand. And I felt like I could have an impact on things as well, right? Personally, and professionally, in a lot of ways. So, going back to your initial question, I think those experiences have continued to evolve for me. I think there are better nuances in the sense—or better is not the right word. I have more nuance in understanding that experience and how I fit into that, right? This last summer, there is more of a commitment. Now, anytime we make a commitment or a desire to change, we always have to check ourselves to see if we’re still in that same frame of mind. But I have a stronger commitment to trying to dismantle anti-Blackness and try to dismantle racist notions. And even more so now, going back to my identity as an Asian American, in what ways does my own culture and my own upbringing, does my own lens, as an Asian American, help to contribute to some of that, right? I was having a conversation with some colleagues of mine and thinking back, when I was younger, going back to that kind of thing, there was this rule about who I was able to date. Right? Who would be acceptable to date? So, obviously, my parents are Chinese. So, if you can find someone, and I identify as heterosexual, so if you find a nice Chinese girl, right, that’s at the top of the list, if you can find someone that you want to date. And at the bottom of the list, right, was someone who was more darkcomplected or Black, right? That was not in my wheelhouse or realm. And so, a lot of that sentiment that seemingly is innocuous—I mean, my parents are immigrants and so this notion, Transcribed by Melissa Martin 4 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 right, coming from Taiwan where there’s not a lot of people of color, right? They’re mostly Chinese or indigenous individuals but there were still notions of colorism, right? The darker the skin, don’t be out in the sun too much because not only is it bad for you but also you don’t want to be too dark-complected. So, a lot of those things that I took, I viewed different then, I look at now in the lens of how that can contribute to notions of anti-Blackness, right, and what that role looks like. And then, I’m a father of two young girls. And so, what is now my role as someone who can influence, particularly those in my own family, what those thoughts and ideas look like? How do I have and hold conversations with my children and social media, everything. Compared to when I was younger, you had to read the newspaper, watch television. There were only three news channels, right? Cable was satellite media, as I was getting a little bit older. So, there were only so many sources of news. Now, there are so many places where you can get information. And so, how do I structure those conversations or perhaps take opportunities to have conversations with them about these diverse issues, racially, or around sexual orientation, around gender, right? And I’ve been surprised. I mean, a lot of them have been reading books that have exposed them to a lot of concepts that I probably wouldn’t have been reading prior, because the authors weren’t writing about those topics, right, about gender fluidity or any of those things. They’re much more comfortable in using that language than I was at their age, at that time. I don’t know if I answered your question? It’s kind of long-winded. But those are just, I mean, just some initial thoughts about some of those movements and around social justice in general. Ford: Mm-hmm. You answered the question perfectly. Thank you. [chuckles] Lai: Okay. Ford: So, what role did you play in the creation of the Black Student Center? Lai: Yeah. Other than perhaps a cheerleading role on the sidelines—So, I’ll give you a little bit of history, just also for the purposes of this recording. You know, the Cross-Cultural Center is— not was, but is the first established now what’s called the Student Life Center. So, we were established in 2003. So, at the time, with no other Centers or spaces, we kind of had to do everything. And again, this wasn’t me. It was my predecessors, right? And so, once the CrossCultural Center—I think soon thereafter it was the Women’s Center, now currently called the Gender Equity Center, Pride Center. And then there was a huge gap, and probably within the last 5-7 years, the LatinX Center, and then most recently, the Black Student Center. So, my role has been as sort of a cheerleader of it. We had a student who worked as student staff. Her name is Chanel Bradley. She’s an alum of Cal State San Marcos. She revived the Black Student Union, BSU, during her time here. And she worked with Robert Aiello-Hauser who is the director of the LGBTQA Pride Center in a lot of those things. At the time, there were just the three: the Women’s Center, the Cross-Cultural Center, and the LGBTQA Pride Center. So, when I came in 2011, we overlapped. Chanel was I think in her second to last or last year, right? So, she was involved in developing. And since there wasn’t a Black Student Center at the time, I was sort of the support mechanism, right, along with some of the other Centers in providing support for the Black students. So, we played roles in supporting them programmatically, trying to work with them. If you were to come in person to the Cross-Cultural Center, I helped to develop things like, at the time when it was called Black History month, now it’s called Black Excellence month, but Black History month. And in my early couple of years being on campus, I was focused on how Transcribed by Melissa Martin 5 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 do we create space to celebrate or to discuss and talk about these issues. [starts to adjust his chair. Both laugh.] I’m sorry. My chair keeps sinking and I’m not doing anything, and so I keep having to adjust. So, my role was really more advisory, if that. Trying to play a support role. Trying to support our students. This is even before the establishment or the creation of a Black Student Center. I would say, then, after that, I still continued to have relationships supporting the Black Student Union. At the time, the Cross-Cultural Center was a subset of what was known then as the Student Life and Leadership or SLL. And SLL, now called the Student Leadership and Evolvement Center or SLEC, was in charge of student organizations. So, I as the CrossCultural Center, had responsibility over some of the student cultural organizations, of which BSU was one. And so, that was where my relationship continued to build with them, trying to support them, do leadership, trying to support the students who were a part of that. Around that time, as the LatinX Center got some momentum and eventually was established, right, there were students in the Black Student Union who said, “Hey.” The argument one could say is, for the LatinX Center, the population at campus was almost 50%—it was pretty high—that identified as Hispanic or LatinX or Latino. And so, there was a need for resources and support. On the other side of the spectrum, and this is not to take away from Native American or American Indian students, Indigenous students, the second lowest were Black students, I think hovering around 23%. And so, students at the time had expressed an interest and desire to say, “We need a space too because there’s not enough of us.” It was not so much because there’s so many, but it was a lack of visibility and a lack of resources to recruit. And I came to learn later on, it was an issue with some of the reputation of the area, right, whether or not it’s a welcoming and inviting space, whether or not there was a critical mass of faculty or staff so students would feel like, yes, I want to come to Cal State San Marcos. So, my role was very much tangential, was very much on the outsides trying to support it, recognizing that students needed additional resources and support in order to be able to provide them a space to congregate, a space to be able to discuss about issues that are specific to the Black community. BSU did that, right, to some degree. It just wasn’t necessarily as organized or had the resources and the staffing and the dedicated time that I think John, the current director John, is able to put forth in helping to support that community, right? And so, that’s the extent off my experience in relation to the creation and establishment of the Center. It was truly student developed and student driven. They organized and decided that they wanted to create a space. They were going to go and make a demand to the president, President Haynes at the time, and were strategic about when and how to demand or ask, right, [chuckles] strategically about the need for this. And I would say President Haynes, at the time, I think it—I wouldn’t say caught her off guard. I think it was very impactful because now she was on the spot and she could also challenge them and say, “Okay. What are the needs? Tell me what you need. Draft a proposal.” So, she put it right back to the students. And so, the students then went to work and they said, “Okay. This is what needs to happen.” And then, with support from faculty and staff, the Black Student Center was eventually established here at Cal State San Marcos. Ford: So, you helped support everyone. [chuckles] Lai: Yeah. Yeah. Ford: So, what did the student staff involved in the creation of the Black Student Center feel like they needed directly? I know you went into a little detail about it, but is there anything? Transcribed by Melissa Martin 6 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 Lai: Yeah. I’m very aware and I’ve actually shared with student activists, I say I’m here to support but I’m also part of the institution. [laughs] So, I think they were savvy enough to know like okay, I can only share this much with Floyd. So, I don’t know all the details of the thing. What I recall though was some of the things that I shared with you, that there was a lack of visibility for Black students and therefore there was a sort of spiral effect because at least the argument at the time was if I don’t see people like myself or other Black students, why do I want to come here to Cal State San Marcos? There’s no place for me to feel like I belong. So, a sense of belonging was one. A sense of programming that was dedicated. I shared with you, prior to that, I put together a Black History Month event about being Black in America and we kind of cobbled together some programming that would talk about those issues. But I wasn’t Black, right? So, I relied heavily on Black faculty or staff or even the students, to come up with ideas and concepts that could speak to that experience. But again, I was from an outsider view. I’m not Black and I don’t have that experience so I can’t speak to it. And, probably, this is just my take on it, there’s not a sense of authenticity or even—credibility is not the right word, but just authority as a Black individual to say this is what we need. I was kind of like “Hey. How can we help put this together programmatically so that there’s some visibility.” But I wasn’t—again, not being Black myself. So, I think that was another piece, seeing some additional programming that spoke to the community as opposed to from an outsider lens trying to see and fill a void that was there. I think there was also a desire for just a space. I mean, I think that’s where it always stems from. And I’m very cautious too, because I think any time you advocate for a Center or a space, if your only argument is we need a space, okay, well what’s that space supposed to do? Because there is strength, obviously, in numbers. But you could hang out in the dining hall. You can hang out outside and carve out your own space. So, what is the need for a Center? And so, I think they wanted to look at resources, ways in which tied to student success, to graduation rates. So, those are some things that I think eventually made it into the initial proposal and/or if not part of the demands into the proposal. And, you know, I think students had a lot of support from faculty and staff, as far as hearing their concerns and then being able to articulate that in a way to eventually formulate the initial plans for the movement towards an establishment of the Black Student Center on campus. Ford: So, what did you think the university administration communicated was their vision for the Black Student Center? Lai: I think they communicated that there was a desire to have it. I don’t know if they necessarily dictated what it was going to be. In my experience, to some degree, I think that as an administrator you’re looking at every piece, right? Where is it going to be? I mean, just because the president of an institution or a university says “Yes, it’s going to happen” doesn’t mean all the answers are … [next few words unintelligible due to poor reception] Yes, it’s going to happen. Now figure out how it’s going to work. . . . I think there was a commitment or a desire to meet the students, what they’re wanting to have. And I’ll be the first to say I think students have a lot of power, more so than they often think, when it comes to political will and capital because—And not to say that just because you could do it, you should. But because there’s the desire there, they articulated a good reason for why there was a need for a Black Student Center that was compelling enough that I think that the institution said “Okay. We’re going to do that.” Right? And so, the commitment was yes, we’re dedicated to this. It’s one of our values. Now, Transcribed by Melissa Martin 7 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 whether or not and there’s going to be personalities and histories of whether or not you believe what the president is saying or doesn’t say or the rest of the administration, there was definitely a commitment though on the heels of a LatinX Center being established, that there was the need because these two populations, both the Brown and Black populations, had different systemic issues, right? Whether it was retention as I mentioned earlier, or student success when it came to graduation rates, there was a desire. And so, both of these Centers actually stemmed or started from a—and this gets too much into the nitty gritty, but they came up through Student Academic Support Services. And so, their focus was primarily on student success. Whereas for me, in the Cross-Cultural Center, Gender Equity Center, and Pride Center, we all came up through different ways. The Gender Equity and Pride Center or Women’s Center came up through Associated Students. And so, it was very much student driven, student funded, right? That was funding stream. The Cross-Cultural Center was established under Student Life, under this engagement in student activities, that kind of thing. And the Black Student Center, LatinX Center, came under Student Academic Support Services. Now, they all overlap in a lot of ways, but it was very targeted, right? When you think of Student Academic Support, you’re thinking testing materials, time management, skills that were necessary for student success. And so, I think those were some elements that there was a dedication to, right, by the institution, by the university. So, we want these spaces to fall under this area because we want to increase the student success of both Black communities as well as Latino communities. So, I think that was what was communicated and conveyed by the institution. The rest of the details were left up to the person in charge at the time, right, to develop and see through what that would look like. Currently—and I would say this is more recently—my current supervisor, the Associate Vice President of Student Life, Dr. Gail Cole-Avant—she came on probably around the same time, no, about a year or two after the Black Student Center. So, prior to that, we all reported to different people. And so, that also meant that there was different focus and different priorities for each of our spaces. And so, this reorganization with the Vice President of Student Affairs, Dr. Checa, to combine and create this new space where all the Centers were consolidated as a result of some external reviews was, I think, in a good way the university saying, “We need to do better. And this is our way to make sure that we are all aligned in moving forward,” because it kind of felt like we were going in three different directions, right, because ASI, Student Government, they have an agenda, a mission, a focus. My area around student leadership and student life is different. And then Black Student Center and the LatinX Center around student success and academics. So, they’re kind of different. They definitely overlap but they’re on different trajectories. By bringing them together, I think the institution is also saying that there’s a commitment to doing better, to moving towards success in aligning the resources, helping. We all support one another. We’re all staffs of one, to a certain degree. We rely heavily on graduate assistants and undergraduate students who work in our spaces. So, us leveraging and supporting one another I think provided a pathway to be able to move forward in a way that perhaps the Black Student Center wasn’t able to do prior. Ford: So, do you know of any pushback, internal or external, against the opening of the Black Student Center? Lai: You know, I think with any creation of new space where resources are being allocated, there are always going to be detractors and individuals who feel like is this the best use of our resources, right? I would say, from my lens where I was situated, there was not necessarily so Transcribed by Melissa Martin 8 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 much pushback per se as much as it was trying to understand what the purposes were, right? We knew we could have a Black Student Center. I was actually—just as far as my connection to the Center and I forgot about this—I was on the committee that selected the first director, right, or was invited to be a part of that. So, we knew at the time that the director was really going to set the stage, especially being the inaugural director for a brand-new space. This individual would have to articulate the vision; would be able to link and connect with those that were on campus, both those that support it and perhaps even those that didn’t; and be able to pool those resources together; more importantly—and I think this was probably the priority—really build a rapport and a relationship with students, right, and student organizations because even if you build it, if they don’t come, then, you know—. So, you really need to help to let students know what is the purpose, why is it here, why it’s important, and to build those relationships. So, I would say that that was where our focus was. Outside of that, I don’t think that I was aware of. I wasn’t involved in any particular pushback. Was there? I’m sure there was, right? Others that may have said, I think—and it’s the same sort of trope—White students, and I use that broadly, right? But where is our White Center, right, because if you’ve got a LatinX Center, you’ve got a Black Student Center, where is the White Center? So, a lot of these things started coming through perhaps, right? Again, those were often funneled through the Office of Inclusive Excellence at the time. And so, I wasn’t necessarily a part of those sort of conversations or comments. But I will say that once a Center is established, then you start to get “Well, what about us? What about our Center? Where’s the Middle Eastern Center? Or where’s the Muslim Center, right, where we can pray? What about the Asian American Center, APIDA Center? What about the Jewish Center for the Jewish students on campus?” And so, I think it’s not so much pushback but it’s more of the “What about us now? What now?” Now that we’ve started this precedent, what does that mean? And so, I think there may have been obviously some conversations and discussions, maybe even some disagreements around that approach as well. But, beyond that, I didn’t necessarily hear any specific pushback to that because I think students had done a good job in I think articulating it. They had worked really closely with faculty. And also, the Black Faculty and Staff Association, they really helped to drive that home. So, I think, collectively, there was a desire to see that this would be successful. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, speaking of the opening, were you able to attend the grand opening? Lai: I try to remember. [laughs] That was a couple of years ago. I think I was in the back. And I don’t remember what year you are in school. Have you been? It’s on the 4th floor— Ford: Yeah, I’ve been. [chuckles] Yeah. Lai: —which is right by the stairwell. There’s not a lot of space and room in general, right? Ford: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lai: So, I think it was up there. They did a ribbon cutting ceremony up there. I recall being kind of in the back [indicates behind him with both arms] because there’s only so much space you can have, right, in front, of where it was. And that’s my recollection because I think there was a photo that I saw on a website way back when, when it was first established, or there may still be one in the archival footage, of the first director and then also with President Haynes doing some ribbon cutting and ceremonial things with the Center. But, after that, the first, his name was Transcribed by Melissa Martin 9 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 Anthony Jett. I, along with some of the other directors for the Centers, we all collaboratively work together. And so, I would have opportunities, right, to connect with the first director in trying to figure out programmatically different ideas, different approaches, and ways to look at the situation and how we can ensure the success of the Center. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, how did it feel the first time you visited the Center? You have any [last word unintelligible] Lai: Yeah. Well, so I’ve been here long enough that, you know, that space prior—there was some work that had to be done. That used to be the meditation stress-free zone, I guess. It was meant to be a prayer space, initially. So, it has undergone some renovation. But if you ever go up to the bathroom that’s right there as well—because there used to be a display case—and so they had removed it and created space so the folks could actually access it. There’s a gender-neutral bathroom or single stall use bathroom up there. But you’ll notice it’s different from others because there’s actually a—oh, I’m forgetting what the Islamic term is for it—but a wash station. So, you can sit. And so, the intent was that for those, particularly those, of our Muslim faith that we had a dedicated space for spirituality, prayer. Sometimes, it was a nap space, right, but for meditation. So, it was converted from that. And so, it’s right above the Cross-Cultural Center when you look at the specs. They did a really great job with the small amount of space that was there, right? I would say also, too—and being all transparent as well—having a space is important. Where the space is located is also important. So, we ran out of room on the 3 rd floor. There was no other way to chop up. The LatinX Center got wedged in between the CrossCultural Center and the Gender Equity Center. It used to be called the Social Justice—It was meant to be a training space, and they made [words cut off. Maybe “it into”?] the LatinX Center, right? And in the same vein, we can’t have a Black Student Center halfway across the campus. It has to all be in the same space, but we ran out of room. So, it’s on the 4th floor. And so, the fact that they converted it, I mean it’s a beautiful space. You have nice views. You can see it. It’s a small space, right? It can get crowded real quickly, especially if you get a critical mass, like a lot of our spaces, but just in general. And it’s right up on the top so there’s a lot of visibility as folks are walking past and go through. What I will say, though—and this is something that I think all Centers and spaces struggle with—if you see a community of people in the space, there’s always this question of do I belong here or don’t I, right? And so, I did hear early on, right, some of the challenges were “Oh, I’m not Black. I can’t go in the space. [chuckles] Should I set foot inside?” Even though if you want to learn about—Just because it’s called the Black Student Center, it’s focused on Black issues and other things that affect the Black community, but it’s not limited to individuals who identify as Black. And so, that has always been a tension, right, when it comes to who can come into the space, who’s allowed to step through the doors. Do I feel comfortable? Some of that we, as directors of our spaces, we try to make it as inviting as much as we can. But, ultimately, it’s up to that student to step through that door [chuckles] and take that step to go inside that space. So, you know, it was a beautiful space. They had a great computer lab, selfpublish stations. It was very tiny so there was one office and one desk. There was a small kitchenette and other things that you would normally want to see in a student-centered space for individuals. So, yeah, it was an exciting time. I would say, like any new spaces on campus, we want to make sure that they’re successful. And people hung out there. I will say, right, so just being in the Cross-Cultural Center and as these spaces have evolved and developed, people that Transcribed by Melissa Martin 10 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 we normally would have seen previously in some of our spaces then started to go and gravitate, right? So, if there were Black individuals who at one point prior hung out in the Cross-Cultural Center, they now felt like—well, I don’t know if they felt like, but I would maybe see them upstairs now, right? I would have to go upstairs to connect with them versus before they would be just be right behind me, whether on couches or something like that. I could just say, “Hey, how’s it going?” and connect with them. So, that’s all part of the shift that I think that happened with student spaces, and where you feel comfortable, where you feel like you belong. And those are always dynamic, and they change, depending on the students when they come in and how they pass on orally [next few words are cut off] . . . students hang out. And then, all of a sudden you start to get some of these myths about where people should or shouldn’t be with regard to that. Ford: So, can you tell me a little bit about the early focus of the Black Student Center’s programs, and different initiatives that they did during the day? Lai: Yeah. What I recall—and, again, I wasn’t integral in the design, because Anthony Jett, the first director, really dictated a lot of that, but in my conversations with him there were a few themes that I recognized, right? One, I think, was leveraging the experience of the community in North County, which—I don’t think North County—Not to say that there aren’t Black communities, but it’s not predominantly an area regionally known for that. And so, part of it was establishing relationships. So, I want to say the NAACP has a chapter, I think, in North County or maybe in Vista or nearby. Mira Costa has centers or spaces. And so, Mira Costa does a Martin Luther King, Jr. Day of Service, right, for example, which at our campus we don’t do. We have Cesar Chavez, at the time. We do now. And so, there were—I think, Anthony, some of his first parts were really establishing those relationships because, again, there had not been a Black Student Center prior. And so, those relationships weren’t necessarily there, or the focus and taking the time to focus on those relationships weren’t necessarily there. I also think that, wherever possible, the director would try to help with recruitment. So, when we think about outreach on our campus, oftentimes these occur seventh, eighth grade, maybe high school. And so, he would spend a lot of his time either going to high school or conferences or fairs to try and let them know about the fact that there was a Black Student Center and that, yes, there are Black students and a Black community, even though it’s small, at Cal State San Marcos. It was establishing relationships with organizations like the NAACP or other institutions. It was really getting involved in the community. And that’s something, I think from what I observed, was something he spent a lot of his time doing, right? Secondary to that, and that’s where we often connected, was the programmatic nature of what was the focus and what was it going to look like. And he—and I’m forgetting what his affiliation is—but he was part of one of the Divine Nine. It may have been Omega Psi, Omega Phi? I haven’t been on campus, so my Greek is— Omega Psi Phi, I think it is, one of the Black fraternities. He himself was a member, so he built relationships, right, and brought on the fraternity and helped in those efforts, strengthened those pieces with regard to community, tried to have programming with students and work collaboratively with the Black Student Union. Student organizations, they ebb and flow [laugh] depending on who the leadership is. Sometimes, they’re really strong and sometimes people are busy and so there’s not a lot of traction. So, whatever the leadership was at the time, I think he tried to forge relationships with them as well. So yeah, I think those were the efforts. I think also Transcribed by Melissa Martin 11 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 knowing, and I shared with you early on, when I came on and there was no other Center and space, I primarily drove a lot of the History Months or the Heritage Months. And so, with the establishment of the Black Student Center now, there could be a focus. And that became their responsibility or purview to some degree, if they wanted to do programming or things like that and how they might be able to support community, create community, create opportunities for folks to gather. Those were all efforts that I think Black History Month, Black Excellence Month now, those are some of the programming efforts and focus that he was in charge of. I want to say he started in August, in the summer, so he had a really quick pivot time to try and get going because usually with planning like this, for any programming, a couple months in advance you want to be there. So, he was scrambling, not only trying to build those relationships, but also create some sort of programming that would work. So, we often would leverage and say, “Oh yeah. We’ve got this program. Let’s support one another,” or things like that, in helping to move that work forward and increasing the visibility of the Center and space. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, current, and previously, have there been any collaborative efforts between the Cross-Cultural Center and the Black Student Center? Lai: There have. I mentioned earlier, more recently, I would say we have looked at different ways to view those collaborations. So, first and foremost, the Cross-Cultural Center does a program called the Social Justice Summit which is a weekend retreat to talk about issues of social justice, to explore identity. How does that connect with the choices and decisions we make to look at power and privilege? And then, it’s a three-day conference, so by the last day of the summit/retreat, we are looking at what does that mean? How do we become an ally? So, all the Centers, including the Black Student Center once they came online, were all invited collaborators with that sort of social justice programming. It’s not only signature programs but it’s also a way that all of us intersect across our different programming areas. So, that’s definitely one area that I would say he was invited to. But again, he had so much on his plate, I don’t know if we were necessarily able to leverage that at the time when he first came onboard with the Black Student Center. Since then—and I’ll speak probably more recently and actually this is going to be tomorrow—we are doing a program tomorrow called Beyond Just Us: Empathy and Justice Across Communities, and that’s a collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and the Black Student Center. Now, that has also been a shift in our space. And I don’t know. We’re not talking about the Cross-Cultural Center, but we started to do more programming in the absence of an Asian Pacific Islander Desi American-dedicated space. And that’s not us. We have a lot of students who identify, that hang out in our space: Filipino, Chinese, otherwise. But, in the absence of an actual space, we’re doing programming because there’s still going to be a need for that. So, that’s a program defining diaspora, a APIDA identities. That’s a program series we do within our space. And in light of the recent assaults and attacks on Asian American communities, and sometimes by perpetrators who were perceived as Black, we’ve seen an increase in the solidarity marches and/or the ways in which both of these communities have come together, right? And so, tomorrow is an example of where we’re looking at what does that intersectionality look like between Asian and Black communities? What has that history been, right? In the description, we talk about this trope. I don’t know when you were born, Ayana, but I was in high school during the 1992 riots, Rodney King, when the policemen were acquitted and the aftermath of all that, or actually leading up to all that, right, what happened as a result of his beating. And Transcribed by Melissa Martin 12 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 at the time—again, so this goes back to your very first question about my lens and stuff in high school—that was probably another point, just looking at those relationships because I remember having arguments with my Korean friends like “Why are you going to L.A.?” I’m not anti-gun. I’m not a fan of having any firearms in general, right? That’s not for me to deal with. And I remember having heated conversations with them about why are you going to Korea Town. Just stay safe! And they’re like “No. This is our livelihood, so we need to protect ourselves.” Well, anyway, there was this trope. There was this “It’s Black against Asian,” right, because L.A., and then if you go to Korea Town, those are the businesses that were being looted or specifically targeted. And so, that trope has reemerged again, right? “Oh, these attacks against Asian American communities, they’re all perpetrated by Black people.” And so, there’s this thing where, again, looking at White supremacy in a broader context, things that I’m starting to learn more about now, that it’s pitting two different groups against one another rather than looking at the larger issues and systemic issues that are happening that are shared across both communities. And so, because of that, that’s what we’re going to be exploring a little bit tomorrow, right, is kind of demystifying that trope, recognizing where each of these communities have some commonality, where they can stand in solidarity, how we can feel like we can be empathetic but also be accountable, right, to those things, and the complicated histories, right? I talk about how Asian Americans can sometimes perpetuate that notion of anti-Blackness. So, what is our role in that, and then where does that apply when the perceived perpetrators are they themselves Black, right? It’s not about blaming but looking at the bigger picture. So, that’s just another more current example, yet to happen tomorrow, that we’re going to be putting on. And I look forward to possibly great relationships now with John being the current director and because of the structures that I mentioned earlier in our conversation, where we work more closely together than we have previously. We’re being able to see more opportunities to collaborate and to do some programming between the Black Student Center and the Cross-Cultural Center, and that it’s more targeted, right? Another one that didn’t happen this year but perhaps the next year— one thing that we do in the Cross-Cultural Center to differentiate ourselves from some of the other spaces is we have a focus on advocacy and activism. What does that look like? We’re not going to dictate, this is how you are an activist or not, [laughs] you’re an activist. But we do believe that I think students need to know about what are some models. What are some strategies? What are—you know, protests are important, and it definitely has a place in creating change. It’s not the only way to create change. It’s the most visible way, and I think oftentimes students and others conflate that if I’m going to be an activist, I have to be out on the streets. [laughs] And so, we’re trying to provide different venues and avenues for exploring what activism and advocacy looks like. Also, as a tangent—and this goes back, sort of connected—but I’ve been a part of my professional associations and I went to conferences, and one of the things that struck me was that when a lot of these Black Lives Matter protests were occurring, it was a student who was at Stanford. He was an engineer. He was a Black student. But he talked about “I go to these protests, and I got arrested. I wasn’t expecting to be arrested, but I got arrested. And then, the rest of the semester, I had to deal with going to court, working with my lawyer,” all these things that, in the moment, he hadn’t thought about necessarily, or maybe he thought about but he didn’t think it all the way through. And so, those were all things that caused me to think about “Okay, we need to do more to help educate our students so that it’s not like ‘Hey, come with me. We’re going to go do this.’” It’s more like “Okay. If you are going to go protest and Transcribed by Melissa Martin 13 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 you might get arrested, what are some practical things you should know about before you go there, right?” all those things. Anyway. So, having said that—that was a lot—we, as part of that program of the Activist Lab, which is another program series we do—we were going to explore the legacy of John Lewis. So, this year, in particular, the library has—their read is the book They Came for Us, by George Takei, which is a graphic novel, and the power of graphic novels. And so, March, the book by John Lewis, is a three-part book, talks and illustrates similarly and actually was inspiration, I believe, for the George Takei book, They Came for Us. So, we were going to work with the Black Student Center, going all the way back to your first question for that collaboration, of trying to do a book discussion about March, right? What was John Lewis’s legacy? How did he, at his young age, decide to do what he did when it came to protesting and sitting in diners where he wasn’t supposed to be? So, again, this was just through a lens of trying to understand strategies, looking at models or individuals who could be models of what activism looks like and how do they come to those decisions. But we needed to postpone that, but that’s another example of a program where we worked with the Black Student Center or will be working with the Black Student Center in identifying programmatic opportunities and connections. And there will continue to be opportunities because very much all of our work is very intersectional in nature. We all believe that I’m not just an Asian identified individual. I’m male. I’m heterosexual or straight, right? All those identities impact one another and sometimes they coincide with some of these other spaces like the LatinX Center or the Black Student Center. Ford: Mm-hmm. Lai: Yeah. Ford: I look forward to hearing more about those programs. Lai: Yeah. [laughs] Ford: So, do you know why the Black Student Center was moved from Student Success to Student Life? Lai: Yes. I think part of it was, again, a restructuring to leverage resources. I think there was—I won’t get too much into it, but I reported up to the Vice President of Student Affairs, Dr. Lorena Checa. However, we all reported differently to different supervisors. And so, that in and of itself causes—so, I may have a different focus or approach than Student Success has an approach, right? And so, we just had different ways in which we’re doing it— [reception starts to become very choppy] Ford: Can you hold off one second? [seems to be trying to figure out how to improve reception] Lai: —instead of going in three different directions, we feel like we’re all going in the same direction. Oh, sure. Ford: So, why was the Black Student Center moved from the Student Success to Student Life? Lai: Yes. My short answer would be that it was a leveraging of resources. Whereas reporting to three different associate vice presidents, by going to a singular associate vice president or supervisor, and then to the vice president of student affairs, we are in lockstep to some degree. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 14 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 We still have a lot of autonomy but we’re moving in the same direction, whereas before we may have been going in three different directions because we each had a supervisor who may have had a different approach or had a thought about what we should be prioritizing. Consolidating those efforts, in my estimation, has helped us to really focus in on what is it that collectively, all five of us, how do we tell our story? Where are there areas for overlap, collaboration, or opportunities that we previously connected with? And we want to collaborate. The campus, by nature, we just tend to be collaborative in general, but even more so now. We can leverage the fact that we all have the same supervisor, the same area. We all have a similar basic mission now around this notion of student life in moving forward. Now, Student Success is a part of Student Life. It all, again, overlaps in a lot of ways. But having a singular supervisor, in my estimation, helps us to move that more successfully and hopefully make bigger strides in progressing and moving our individual agendas or our approaches more effectively and efficiently. Ford: Mm-hmm. Okay. So, what are some of the wrinkles that needed to be ironed out during the opening of the Center? Lai: I think same as anyone else, how people could fit. Who’s going to fit? [chuckles] When we could have food, do we have enough food for everyone? How much is that going to cost? Are people going to come? Are they not going to come? How do we ensure success? What is success defined as? I think those are all part of the wrinkles. We all have a blueprint for what we hope will happen, but the wrinkles are really the details in trying to figure out what needs to happen, how to ensure that those things are happening. Those are some of the early ones, I think, more than anything. Just like any new Center or space, you’ve got to publicize. And it’s funny. You could be screaming from the top. You could have a million signs— [laughs] Ford: Mm-hmm. [nods] Lai: —on the door that tell you exactly what’s going on and you still will have people go “Oh, what’s this?” Right? Because people are just not in that frame of mind. And in the same vein, you could be screaming from the rooftops, “We have a Black Student Center!” and you’ll inevitably have a student that goes “Oh. I didn’t know that we had it.” [laughs] Getting yourself visible, letting folks know about it, helping them understand what the initial purpose is, who is it for? I heard stories, and these were probably from Black students, they’d be sitting there, and people would be walking and tiptoeing by the door. They’d look inside and they would keep walking, right? Like “Is this where I’m supposed to— Can I come in?” And these were also Black students, maybe even too, to some degree, right? So, just those experiences and hesitancies, I think, are all part of the wrinkles that were a part of that sort of opening to some degree. Our program as well, in the first year, we were trying to establish what is the . . . What are the needs of the students? How do I meet those needs and ensure that this is a place that they would want to come back to? Those are all wrinkles, I think, that I think early on needed to be worked . . . And why—all the more reason that any inaugural director has a huge burden to try and lift, right, when you’re the first of any [technical difficulties] because it’s freeing as there’s no precedent. It doesn’t feel like you have to step up to anything. But at the same time there’s no real benchmark either for what that’s like [technical difficulties] And so, those are all the wrinkles and things that people sorted through in the early days of the Black Student Center. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 15 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 Ford: Mm-hmm. So, what do you feel like the main purpose of the creation of the Center was? I knew you went into a little bit of detail on that before, but in your opinion. Lai: Yeah. I think that there is an acknowledgment and a desire that spaces like these can be helpful in supporting students in their efforts [technical difficulties] I feel like [technical difficulties] just as they need to be able to move forward. There are ways in which that can be manifest. There are different models. I came from a—I told you about the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine where I did my undergrad and then eventually worked for a couple of years. They were established in the early ‘70s, but then higher education has gone through budget cuts and then sometimes it does well. So, there’s a lot of these cycles. And there was a moment in time where “We don’t have money. So, we’re going to consolidate everything. And then, we’ll have specialists,” right? And then, there’s other times where it’s like they see it’s a dedicated space, right? And so, I think we go through cycles like that. And so, I think regardless of the efforts that I may have tried to do or contribute, either in supporting the student organization, I wasn’t Black, you know. And that’s not a dig and saying that you have to be in order to. I just didn’t really have that perspective or experience. And so, I think there was a need to have a Center or a space dedicated, especially in light of Black Lives Matter and a lot of these things that are issues that are more complex and complicated that I think require those people to be able to—And even then [next few words unintelligible due to reception] that’s of value for any particular challenge. So, I think there’s that. There was the fact that students wanted it, right? And there was a desire for that. And so, we want to support students in those efforts. But we also want to make sure that students are doing it thoughtfully and not, as I said, just because they want a space. They need to be able to justify why. And I think they were able to articulate that there was a need. So, to me, that’s the reason why I think a Black Student Center needed to exist. There was not enough programming or attention being paid to the issues that the Black community needed to address at Cal State San Marcos. And so, the Black Student Center helped to fill that void to some degree [technical difficulties] individuals who focused their specifically on the needs of the Black community and how to move those efforts forward. Ford: Mm-hmm. So, do you think that purpose has been accomplished? Lai: I think it’s in process. I think that we’re moving in the right direction. I believe so. I think all those things I mentioned about our students coming, how do we generate those. Because students come every year, right, and cycle through every four years, in a lot of ways because people that are coming in don’t always have the context or the history. And so, I think it can feel repetitive but for the student who has never been there, it’s the first time they’re hearing this information and what the purpose of the Black Student Center might be. And so, to your question, yes, they are accomplishing it. I feel like they’re moving in that direction. I think that they’re building community. I feel like we’re there tackling and connecting with spaces like mine across [technical difficulties] the Cross-Cultural Center [technical difficulties] to really [technical difficulties] because there are so many [technical difficulties] you know, or if you are Black from Africa versus Black in the United States. All of those things I think are part of that direction and effort of what the Black Student Center is trying to accomplish. And so, I believe, yes, they are moving in the right direction, and there’s always going to be opportunities to do better. But I feel confident that they’re making strides. The fact that we get a chance to talk about the oral history and talking about the history of the Center is a positive step in the right direction, to Transcribed by Melissa Martin 16 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 acknowledge its origins and also perspective on what its impact has been on Cal State San Marcos. And, for me, that means that if you have the ability to go back and reflect, that means you kind of have a good . . . because early on, it’s hard to know where you want to go when you don’t know where you’ve been, is something I learned from a mentor. And so, history, context has been such a part of my own professional development. And so, I was excited and why I was “Oh, yeah. I want to sign up. I want to be a part of this project,” because these pieces are helpful for future generations to understand what it was, why it was created, why it should be continued or why I think they should continue to fight for its existence in the future, regardless of whatever may happen in the future. Ford: So, how did the Black Student Center opening impact you personally? Lai: I was excited for it. I think I could see individuals, as I mentioned, who maybe hung out in our spaces prior really excited and really happy that they had a space that they felt like they could call their own, right? Again, not to say they couldn’t come downstairs and hang out in the Cross-Cultural Center, but a space that they feel like they had a connection to. Very much like when I shared with you my own personal experience with [technical difficulties] race formational center because I was going through this sort of with my own identity development. I saw very much in them what I saw in myself many, many years ago at UC Irvine, that they felt like they had a place that they felt a direct connection to. It wasn’t necessarily transactional. It wasn’t like “I’m just here to use the computer.” It was a space where they could go and they could find community, where they could be themselves. And I didn’t say this but where you could go and be yourself without having to explain yourself to anyone else, if that makes sense, right? [technical difficulties] a lot of places where there’s a lot of diverse people and then people ask you questions and you’re like “Okay. I’ve got to talk about that again,” versus you go to spaces like a Black Student Center if you’re Black in particular, and people just get you, right? There’s not a what? Why? What? You know, it’s just they get you. So, I think I saw that energy being—and I still see it now, right, with the students that decide or choose to be a part of those spaces. And so, that’s kind of [technical difficulties], that I’ve observed and seen. Anytime there’s a new space that is focused on the wellbeing and success of student populations, particularly those that are marginalized, I think I’ve come to appreciate and be optimistic that those spaces can serve a greater purpose, right, and how they can help students in their own personal development much like the Cross-Cultural Center did for me when I was at UC Irvine. Ford: So, with how everything is, what would you expect next to see from the Black Student Center? Lai: That’s a great question. That’s a John [Rawlins III], the director, question. I guess what I would hope to see is opportunities to engage in broader conversations, right, of what Blackness looks like in the many other spaces or other communities. I would love to see a large number of students get [technical difficulties] and come into Cal State San Marcos as their first choice, not necessarily just because there’s a Black Student Center, but because there’s a sense that the Cal State San Marcos campus is dedicated to Black excellence, is dedicated to the success of students, and it’s demonstrated because the students have this. It’s one of multiple pieces, right? But it can play an integral piece in the cocurricular experience that students have. I’m in Student Affairs and what that means is that I look at the co-curriculum, what happens outside of the Transcribed by Melissa Martin 17 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 classroom. There’s a lot that happens inside the classroom, but I often believe that if they have a great experience outside of the classroom, those narratives, those anecdotes, those stories supplement what they learn in the classroom, right? There’s this theory. How does this thing—? You’re like, “Well, I have experienced that. Can I translate that into better experiences?” So, it’s the cycle and there is some reciprocity. What happens inside the classroom, what happens outside the classroom, there’s a symbiotic relationship. And so, I look forward to a time when the Black Student Center can continue to play a critical role in those efforts for our Black students at Cal State San Marcos. I guess long term, and optimistically, I hope that like “Oh my gosh. They got an amazing Black Student Center at Cal State San Marcos.” And so, that definitely is going to be the reason why I want to be able to go there, right? They’ve got some amazing programs or initiatives that are unique or novel. They look at it a little bit differently. They’re very creative, right? That you wouldn’t necessarily [technical difficulties] I think those are things that I look forward to, right? I’m also aware of the fact that our current structure— John is the only director [chuckles]; there’s a lot of us who help—that it's not his burden to bear alone, if that makes sense, right? Just like when we talk about issues of diversity or issues of inclusive excellence, it’s not just a diversity people. It’s not the people of color’s responsibility alone. Everyone has to play a role. And so, in that same vein, the Black Student Center’s success will also hinge on my ability to provide and support them and help them to be successful in my own contributions, whether it’s being a part of this, finding ways to assist them and help them in their efforts, defending them when necessary, when people go “Why do we need a Black Student Center?” and helping to foster and build a stronger community together. Ford: So, are there any other questions that I haven’t asked that I could or which you want to add or anything else? Lai: No. It was pretty thorough. I was curious because as I was hearing about the oral history project, I know we talked about it. I said, “Okay, you want to send me the questions?” And you’re like “Oh, no. It’s just going to be a conversation.” So, I had no idea what the questions are going to be. And so, I was like “Why do they care what my childhood was like?” [both laugh] Because this is for the Black Student Center Oral History Project. But I appreciate those questions, and . . . and motivations, right, for my connection to the Black Student Center. In my self defense, I am someone or co-conspirator to some degree, someone who wants to create positive change in the community. I’m still doing the work every day and trying to figure out what I could do better each time, what to do differently, right, in a way that hopefully is helpful. I still learn from John, the director, and help support him. So, yeah. So, thank you so much— Ford: Thank you so much for letting me interview you. That was a wonderful— Lai: —for the opportunity. [I don’t have] anything else to add other than yeah, for the opportunity to share with you and to get to know you better, or at least partially, right? [both laugh] Ford: Thank you so much. Lai: Of course, Ayana. I think that’s it for me, right? Is there any other questions or no? Ford: No. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 18 2024-02 �LAI, FLOYD TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-19 Lai: We’re good? Ford: Yeah. Lai: Okay. Transcribed by Melissa Martin 19 2024-02 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lai, Floyd. Interview transcript, April 19, 2021. Description An account of the resource Floyd Lai was the director CSUSM's Cross-Cultural Center from 2011 - 2023, where he engaged with students and their social justice and activism. Lai attended the University of California Irvine before coming to Cal State San Marcos. Lai saw the growth of the Black Student Center, and helped it grow by supporting and aiding students. In this interview, Lai also discusses his life and childhood. This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Floyd Lai Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-19 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Racism -- California -- Irvine Student success University of California Irvine. Cross-Cultural Center Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Irvine (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Floyd Lai License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LaiFloyd_FordAyana_2021-04-19_transcript Activists and activism Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5092b218abace83b431090029a7e6156.mp4 a205228f558cac4907cf362f9015344a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral history of Geoffrey Gilmore April 14th, 2021 Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Dr. Geoffrey Gilmore on 2021-04-14 for the Black Student Center Oral History Project at California State University San Marcos. Dr. Geoffrey Gilmore was the Associate Vice President of Student Academic Support Services at California State University San Marcos until December 2021, where he focused on service to underserved student populations in earning college degrees. In his interview, Dr. Gilmore touches on the issues facing Black students within academic spaces and his experience helping students to succeed on a university level. Dr. Gilmore also discusses his own history as he moved from Los Angeles to Seattle, and back to California. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Geoffrey Gilmore Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-14 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) Seattle (Wash.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Geoffrey Gilmore License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14.mp4 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Activism, Student Anti-Black Racism California State University San Marcos, Black Student Center Student Success, Black Black experience in America Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project