6
10
208
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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Madison Teater
Interviewee
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Max Disposti
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DispostiMax_MadisonTeater-2022-04-26.xml
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LGBT
resource center
nonprofit management leadership
presence
Stonewall
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5.4 2022-04-26 Oral history of Max Disposti, April 26, 2022 SC027-14 00:54:20 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. LGBTQ+ activism LGBTQ+ rights North County LGBT Resource Center -- California -- Oceanside North County (San Diego County, Calif.) Rome (Italy) LGBT resource center nonprofit management leadership presence Stonewall Max Disposti MJ Teater m4a DispostiMax_MadisonTeater-2022-04-26.m4a 1:|21(7)|43(6)|53(15)|65(3)|75(4)|85(4)|101(11)|113(17)|124(11)|142(11)|153(5)|165(15)|177(13)|188(7)|205(7)|215(10)|227(2)|237(6)|247(10)|259(12)|272(1)|283(4)|293(11)|303(7)|321(3)|333(3)|344(14)|356(3)|367(14)|379(6)|393(13)|406(1)|417(11)|428(6)|439(1)|450(5)|467(10)|479(2)|489(2)|500(3)|514(7)|526(8)|537(11)|550(5)|568(9)|585(13)|597(4)|607(10)|624(5)|634(2)|645(8)|668(1)|681(2)|702(9) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/90bdb0d7c052243dc1d6c76100bad70a.m4a Other audio English 97 Growing up and education in Rome Sure. When I grew up in Rome, you know, I came from a family that was poor, but you know not too poor not to provide for me in terms of, you know, food and a good safe environment, you know healthcare and education in Italy and Europe are still free. Definitely having access to a higher education was not a challenge, at least not from the standpoint of view of affordability. I grew up in a very safe environment, even though, you know, we were struggling every month to make ends meet. I would say my childhood has been affected by the activism of both of my parents. I only have one siblings that's five years older than me also lives in Rome right now, my brother. And so throughout my life I was always exposed to diversity and others in Italy at the time. And still nowadays, there was a big migration from Africa and our country and Middle East or Eastern Europe. It depends on the time at the time, it was mostly from North Africa and my family was hosting people and greeting them and making sure that they were safe. I grew up in an environment where we always care about others, even though we had little for ourselves. Our table was always with more people and usually people from different cultures as well. My family exposed me to all of this, even though my own mom and my own dad didn't have any academic education, so to speak, they couldn't pursue a higher education, but also they were during the war at the time < ; affirmative> ; even going to high school was a privilege that just few wealthy families could afford. I consider myself lucky, of course, when I came out at the age of thirteen there's always that struggle of homophobia, transphobia in a city, in a country that's dominated by Catholic Church. Even though my parents were not religious whatsoever it infiltrates into the patriarchal narratives. When I came out as a gay man at the time it definitely was a surprise and an issue at first to a point I needed to detach from my family. They never pushed me outside so they were not against me but I needed my own space. I was thirteen, fourteen and I was already an activist in the community. But it was never a traumatic experience. I went through my time of self-affirmation and then I came back to them with more-- I knew I could conquer their hearts and mind around this because there were people I could talk to. I was definitely in a privileged position versus other friends of mine. They just end up on the street. < ; affirmative> ; . So that's my childhood. That's who I am. For me early on, on my sense of social justice, that activism around issues that they were not just LGBT related you know, human rights, immigration rights and against the war all the time. And at the time America, I was definitely not a place where I was aiming to live. It was this big monster imperialistic country that goes around to conquer spaces and lifestyles. We were not a fan of it, but love brought me to California and my first love, I would say serious enough to drag me there. And then one thing led to another, I end up staying in California. Again, though I overstay my visa. I became undocumented for about five, six years of my first time. I had to experience all of that fear because now I'm in love with someone. I didn't want to lose them. < ; affirmative> ; so that's a little bit my story, even though I always recognized my privilege to come from a place that was definitely not devastated by war and crime or violence. I still felt that I couldn't go back to it just because if I did at the time, I could never return to the U.S. I did my best and my education helped me to go through all the application process and so forth to become a citizen and live the best of both world[s] pretty much, back at home and here in California. So, yeah, I hope I didn't share too much. Max Disposti recounts his childhood and educational experiences in Rome, Italy. He also goes into detail about his parents and their education. Disposti explores the social climate in Rome during his childhood and starts connecting to different movements such as the LGBT, immigration, and human rights. activism ; affordability ; Catholic Church ; higher education ; LGBT ; Rome ; safe environment ; working class activism in Rome, Italy ; Childhood ; Education ; Family education ; Growing up in Rome, Italy 41.9028° N, 12.4964° E 17 Coordinates for Rome, Italy which is where Max Disposti was born and raised. 397 More on education / Early careers Disposti: When I was in Italy I was really driven by social studies since day one. But my high school years were troubled by a lot of strikes that I organized. I can’t even blame anybody, I was always striking for better schools, better conditions against discrimination. At the time being openly gay was a threat. It was a threat to myself. I think people never touched me or attacked me physically because I was so out that would have exposed them as well. Right. < ; affirmative> ; It was one of those I realized the more vocal out I was, the more protection I was bringing to myself because the people there to be that kinda person, especially in a religious country like that, there's always that fade. I mean, that face that you had to keep, you know, in order decency. High school was problematic. I did finish high school and then I went to the university, high school was just-- in Europe, you already pick in high school what you think you're gonna do in the future. It was graphic design related, a fashion design. Then I look around me, you're in Italy with amazing talented artists. And I look at me and say, “oh my gosh, I would never make it.” These people are just-- each one of them is an artist. I realize it wasn't really for me as well. I went into university and developed more social sociology and social studies. I graduated from-- I got my bachelor[s] over there, but didn't do much with it after a few years-- I mean when I was 30 years old, then I decided to move to the U.S. And here I started over my study and I took my bachelor[s] in political science. And then I went back to get a master [in] nonprofit management in leaderships, which I graduated from in 2016. Not really long ago. Recent, because it was a means for me, I didn't need the academic title. I really needed to know more about the work I was doing, particularly in nonprofit. I had to tell you it was money well invested, even though I'm still paying for it, < ; laugh> ; after so many years. And it really helped me to understand more about nonprofit governments and leadership as well. In addition to what I already knew. So yeah, that's my academic background pretty much. Max Disposti talks more about the education he received in Italy and then receiving his bachelors and masters in the United States. He further talks about his experience as an immigrant in America and undergoing the process to become a citizen. Meanwhile he was working different jobs and then touches on his goal to start an LGBT center. He leads into talking about the origins of the resource center. academic background ; bachelors ; LGBT center ; military ; nonprofit management ; Oceanside ; organized ; political science ; social sociology ; social studies ; strikes ; transplant Early jobs and career goals ; education in America and Italy ; Job opportunities in California ; Max Disposti's education and career background 33.1959° N, 117.3795° W 17 Oceanside, CA 843 The LGBT Experience in North County San Diego Disposti: It was not easy. I had to fight internally and externally, it was opening the door of the center in a military town. I knew it was going to be difficult because it was at the time all North County was extremely conservative. We received threat. We had our windows smashed several times. We elected people that didn't wanna meet us in person. This was obviously 2008 and 2009. Also 2008 was the year of the campaign for marriage equality. The center at this point was not open because we opened 2011, but we were active as a group. It was called North County LGBT coalition. So we were meeting weekly. We were an organizations with all we were grassroot at the same time. We had a board of directors. I mean we were an organization, but not yet with a space because we were saving money to open one. And yeah, North County was quite brutal, but also interesting enough because we were the only organized entity in North County, we received a lot of support and a lot of love from a lot of people from family and youth and so forth. We connected right away with preexisting grassroot groups in North County, in particular, with Link Lesbian in North County, there is a lot of history around what they've done here in North County for 20 years since women met under cover every Friday to create a support system for themselves, even the gay guys were cruising and the whole spots Oceanside had, the Marines were here. There was a lot of LGBT presence in Oceanside. We used to have two gay bars up to 2002, then they closed down just because the owners got old. But there was a lot of LGBT happening. It reminds me what it used to be in San Diego prior to the seventies when the Marines were there. And it became an LGBT Hillcrest [?] in particular place to go because there were a lot of Navy and Marines coming to town and finally they could be true to themself, right? Oceanside, North County was brewing with Marines that they were gay and Navy officers as well, but it was always-- the community was always in denial. Oceanside was a place where there were a lot of street workers, a lot of LGBT people, a lot of trans women, that had to, not by choice, in that case, to become strict workers because they didn't have opportunity for jobs. So quite a rough place, when we came in people couldn't believe that there [were] enough to put ourself out there and call ourself an LGBT center and having the rainbow flag outside. At first we had people just walking into the door. I remember the seniors in particular, literally were emotionally taken by the fact that we were just there. And at first I saw we're not doing anything special. We're just here with a flag outside, running some support groups, but we didn't realize at first the impact we're having soon, so many lives and people that came and dropped their life story on us, seniors and youth. And then all of a sudden we started seeing more and more, our amazing trans kiddos < ; laugh> ; . And that was when we started advocating within our own community with our old generation of gay male to the fact that this is the time for us to give back to those of us that are still struggling and understanding how, not only embrace our trans identities, not as a plus or a sign of solidarity, but as a full part of the community, that's always been there, but always been hidden, not by their choice. It was the constitutions of our mission statement at the center. We were fortunate enough that since day one, when no one was talking about trans rights, other than trans people, of course, by meaning the mainstream of the LGBT community. < ; affirmative> ; Our board was composed by trans folks, the support groups. We started hiring therapists, everybody was volunteering at the time to work with our folks. And we had hundreds, hundreds of kids coming at the center during a week basis. And we learned so much from them, their struggle, their pain, one of this kids became my son because he decided to adopt me. Now he's 22, so he's already grown up and he's a trans male, lives with his girlfriend now and everything else. But so it was a overall real experience. That was never a job for me, never just a job or never just a phase. Right. And I think at that time already, we realized that we needed to educate those old leaderships that they were popping up. And they were excited that we were there, but they started warning us. Hey, this place is becoming, you guys always only care about transcripts. It seems like, what about gay people? Or what about, I say, we don't exclude anyone, but now we need to be together to enhance the voices. So those that haven't been, that have been left out for so many years, because when I grew up in Rome at the age of thirteen, fourteen, I was always surrounded by trans people. They were my friends < ; affirmative> ; . When people tell me, “Oh, I dunno, what's going on now? All of a sudden, everybody is trans or whatever,” say, “no, it's always been like that.” We always been around. I say, we, even though I'm a cisgender gay guy, because I've been blessed to be educated through the experience for many years when I was thirteen, fourteen. For me to hear an older white male that tells me that I say “You haven't looked around too much. You have been focused on yourself for too long.” I would say that was a journey that allowed me to create a center with a culture and a vision where people, when they joined, they needed to know the old that were on board with the whole spectrum, LGTQI or that wasn't the place for them. And we lost some people in the process. We lost some donors, no regrets. We earned again so much more. And now that people are finally recollecting the necessity to bring home what we’ve started thirty, forty years ago, or fifty years ago with Stonewall to bring it back home with everyone, or just some of us, I think, now people are looking at us and say, “Oh wow, you guys were right. You were always there.” And yeah, we were, we are, and we will. And now we're embracing the intersex identities and struggle because again, they're being ask[ed] to be part of our community because many of them are, and that we've been advocating with them now at the children hospital in San Diego to change the horrible practices of mutilation of our organs just to feed the stereotypical expectations [of] what gender or sexes of birth is all about. We always been there in the forefront and when we weren't, we look into ourself to do better. You can imagine how the past three, four years with the Black Lives Matter Movement with adding colors to our flag, how not only we wanted to embrace, but realize that all our identities are not just one identity, right? That we had to be vocal of about the struggle that our own queer people in our own community BIPOC folks are still enduring because of police brutality, institutional violence, and a way to do nonprofits has been whitewashed for many years. And how white supremacists in filtered into our own community. How it shows up? Recognizing how to do that and making yourself vulnerable to it and not defensive on when you might be perpetuating those dynamics. I think it's part of everyday challenges is what I love the most to be honest, because I don't wanna come to a point where I say, “Oh, I think I know everything, and now I got all of my boxes checked.” Nothing else comes through when it's not true. Life is always moving. Right. And so are we, so, yeah. That's how difficult it was in North County, but I focus on the positive, but we lost some kids in the process in 2014 and by loss, I mean, Taylor, Alisana[?], Sage, and Tyler took their own life. There were transcripts that made national news and there were three of them served by our center. And still troubling for me to talk about it. But I always try to honor their lives because they didn't go in pain, even though I wish they were here. But they taught us a bigger lesson. We believed our kids when they were telling us they were struggling to a point they didn't wanna live anymore. There wasn't just a face or a way to drag attention to themselves. It was a real struggle of pain. Some of us didn't have the privilege. Some of us had the privilege not to experience, by being cisgender. We learn a lot in that process. Sorry. < ; laugh> ; Max Disposti talks about the LGBT community in North County San Diego. Specifically areas of Oceanside where there were communities that thrived. Disposti also talks about different groups within the community and where they hung out. He begins to touch on why it was important to him to start the North County Resource Center. community ; gay ; grassroot ; lesbians ; LGBT ; LGBTQI ; Link ; marines ; military ; North County ; Oceanside ; organized ; presence ; San Diego ; support ; trans ; transgender ; youth LGBT in the military ; North County ; The LGBT community in North County 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego 1471 Resources at the North County Resource Center / How the center has changed over time Disposti: Yeah. You know we started in a way at the beginning, really. We didn't have need assessment. We didn't know really how to do any of it eleven years ago. We just said, “Hey, if more than three people come forward and tell us, can we have a super group? For seniors, for non-binary folks, for trans folks?” they say that means it's needed. So, we'll find a facilitator and create guidelines. We were always very serious around policies and procedures and guidelines and protecting ourselves and others in the process. So, we're never easy about that. The opposite. I think that so many times, because while we were a grassroot organization, we knew exactly the level of liability we could incur by just gathering people. You know, there were people [who] were coming because they were stalking other people, right. They were. So how do we protect folks without introducing our own biases in the conversation? We created a support group model that responded to the need of the community. Definitely our trans and non-binary groups was the most populated resources. I mean, sometimes we have 40 people in one room cramped in there because it was the only big room. And I say, “Oh my God the fire department show[ed] up, now they're gonna shut us down.” Because it was a small space at the time. So super groups, then we started doing behavioral health and in the way we wanted to see happening for our people. So, things have changed and housing, case working-- I would say [in] two years we became more experienced. We know how to navigate the system and cut the BS about advocating for people and how to do it well. Creating more safety for our community. So sometimes we're like, for instance, human trafficking is a real, real problem in our community. And we notice that a lot of LGBT centers and churches and sport clubs were place[s] where people are going to groom. And sometimes these people are just a year or two years older than the kid that you're serving. You have to be careful to provide a safe space where you're not there to over micromanage people and their own identity, their own sexuality, their own affirmation are the same, but at the same time, provide a space where people can come to you and tell you, “Hey, I'm an active fifteen year old person, I’m sexually active with this person. Maybe they're at my age or a year older.” How do we go about-- how can I be safe? And things like that. Our youth were coming to us opening their hearts because they knew we weren’t there to judge them. We learned all of that, how to be safe, right? If I have a teenager or thirteen [years old] [who] tells me that they were having a relationship, a sexual relationship with someone at twenty-two, we have major red flags. And we’re also mandated a reporter, right. We've done that too in the past. Navigating through all of that was quite interesting. And we learned how to do it. Now we know so much that we are the one training others youth providers around or the police, when the police shows up because someone called them because maybe they're dynamic of stress. We tell the police what to do and how to approach other people. If they don't agree with that, we don't let them in. This is not place for additional violence and trauma. We educated a lot of these institutions that have been the cause of a lot trauma for our community. We work with them when we can, and we do training and we sit on the same table so that we can advocate and build the trust too. But at the same time, we make it clear that as a service, a clinical provider, this is not a space where they're invited. We need to find other way, how to collaborate and do prevention in a community, without having them finding the queer spaces in San Diego County. < ; affirmative> ; That's one of the things. Things have changed. And then COVID of course, we moved everything virtually. I have to say, now that we came back, they were coming back in person. We never closed the center. We always been open throughout the pandemic. We just couldn't afford to close. We receive a lot of support from foundations and founders. They realize that we made everything possible to support people. I would say what has changed and now we have support groups, but people prefer the one-on-one because they can't find socialization quite easily nowadays in different spaces, even virtually, but they like the one-on-one, “Hey, help me go through this,” family reification or mental health crisis, or finding a job, or just supporting their ego and the self-esteem. It looks like they will be more successful to do that one by one, instead of putting everyone in a super group, which we do have some people just love that, but they're usually mostly social, like let's come together for an all queer and non-binary or let's come together. And because those spaces are very vital, important. We are not denying that. I would say though, that we are seeing more progress by doing that different kind of intervention. So maybe we're creating a hybrid, whatever the community needs. We'll have to respond to that. Max Disposti explains the services offered at the North County Resource Center. Disposti discusses how the center has changed and became more educated and aware of the needs of those within the community. assessment ; beginning ; church ; community ; family reification ; guidelines ; hybrid ; LGBT ; LGBT centers ; mental health crisis ; procedures ; resources ; safe ; self-esteem ; successful ; trauma ; violence Mental health services ; North County Resource Center ; Support groups ; Support offered at the North County Resource Center 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego 1802 Challenges and opportunities of the North County Resource Center I would say challenges, but also opportunities. < ; affirmative> ; I do believe that LGBT centers are the Planned Parenthood of United States. And what I mean is we are vital spaces and resources for our queer community that no other institutions will ever provide. And preserving, not only preserving, but supporting those spaces. I think it's a commitment to the government, state, federal, county will have to commit to, because as we know, as it's happening, if you take away resources from a Planned Parenthood, that's why the comparison, I mean, half of the population of women in particular, but not just women will not have access to reproductive rights, a fundamental human rights. And if they're left to the single communities, and this is a conversation I have with our elected official Mike Levin, people that they're being very willing to understand. I said, I realized during COVID that if it wasn't < ; affirmative> ; for the private donors and support people with money that stepped in, we would not be open nowadays. And < ; affirmative> ; the government, you have [to] allow us to close our resources. And now it's eleven years old that has helped thousands of people. And now employs twelve people. And that's just not fair. This is not just a volunteer experience, this is the livelihood, but also the safe space for thousands of people. And that's true in many region[s], right? For the San Diego Center, so forth. < ; affirmative> ; While it's good for us to build our own funding streams so that you can stay independent. You don't want the government to give you everything for everything you do, because then they want to have a say about how you run your business. But definitely it's important that, especially in California, where supposedly we have a more progressive leadership to start supporting LGBT center so they can provide vital care, healthcare services, the others don't provide. [Be]cause when people get sexually assaulted that are queer, they don't go to the police station. They come to us when they are in a mental health crisis given by different reasons. They come to us first, when they're in poverty, they come to us when experiencing certain kind of relationships or a tougher life or because of drugs or substance abuse, they come to us because they know we're not here to judge. I would say that's why we’re the planned parenthood of the community < ; affirmative> ; [be]cause it's an essential vital resource. The challenges are that we're not there yet, so that we are left alone to do this work. And now that we have experienced and seen the highest record of anti-LGBT legislation passing in Congress, a passing or proposed in different states and in Congress, this conversation, as you know, they hit home, our kids, even though they're in California. And we know that we're a little bit more protected here. We still have people at the school district level showing up and addressing and stigmatizing and penalizing our queerness. We still have people in position of power taking advantage of those narratives and bring back the same old recycled anti-LGBT religious based narratives. The trauma continues every time we hear that, even though it's not here geographically speaking. That's the challenges that in a time where communication goes past left and right, that sometimes even news needs to be vetted. The trauma that the previous administration has caused, we're still dealing with it. Or the Trump administration for those in the record that might watch this years to come, or even now with all the anti-LGBT bills from Florida in Texas, in Ohio, South Dakota, I mean, these are thousands, hundreds of thousands LGBT youth in particular trans youth. They are denied their own assistance. And in 2022 I was hoping not to see that again, instead we are (inaudible) < ; affirmative> ; I have hope, I think we have a lot of things going our favor, including a history of resilience, but it's tough. It's tough for a lot of people. < ; affirmative> ; (Unintelligible) will fight because it's value our own existence, but for a lot of people don't have the means the energy < ; affirmative> ; and we will have to fight for them too. < ; affirmative> ; I see a lot of challenges. They are not just political or cultural, or educational and people really go around spreading a lot of misinformation around the (unintelligible) kids, supposedly getting surgery at the age of eight, which is total bullshit < ; affirmative> ; when it's actually through the opposite. I think that's the challenge of nowadays, they still go and the racism, the institutionalized violence that it's part of the North American culture unfortunately. I think we are an extremely violent culture. < ; affirmative> ; I can say that because coming from another-- when a different kind of violence from the European experience in Italy in particular, I can say though, that a lot of people that are born and raised here don't even realize the, the level of competitive individualism that's being created here in North America to a point that now we have a national pandemic and a worldwide pandemic, and people are even struggling to care for their own neighbors by protecting their self and other, right. < ; affirmative> ; I'm really concerned about those dynamics of violence and isolation, individualism that our society has brought us to be < ; affirmative> ; That goes along with building an LGBT center. Max Disposti analyzes the challenged and opportunities that come from running an LGBT resource center relating instances of both to the current political climate in the United States. He includes his experience in Italy compared to America in which things are handled differently, including the COVID-19 pandemic. commitment ; COVID ; institutionalized violence ; LGBT ; Planned Parenthood ; queer community ; trauma The challenges of running an LGBT resource center ; The opportunities of running an LGBT resource center 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego 2191 LGBT police and sheriff training in San Diego / comparing local police training in Italy Disposti: I'm gonna say that really, even though I train the Escondido police, the Oceanside police, Carlsbad Sheriff Department, we do training with FBI. I met amazing people in those spaces. I mean, here and there < ; affirmative> ; I don't wanna generalize. [Be]cause I met folks with coming from, they shouldn't be there in my opinion. I don't have any trust that the police or any law enforcement will ever, ever represent the interest of those that are working and living. And those of us that are really struggling for a better tomorrow, I mean law enforcement is there to preserve the status quo and we don't like the status quo < ; affirmative> ; of course we like democracy and all of that, but I don't have any confidence in that. You know what I say that to even the officer I train, I tell them I don't dehumanize you because I think people [that] are there are human beings and making their own decisions. Their own sacrifices with their family and many of them risk their life, < ; affirmative> ; for something that [they’re] living. I'm not here to dehumanize individuals and call them and isolate them. I have a lot of relationships with police in the relations to, in a very transparent way, there are not. For instance, we have meetings that we sit at the table I'm always very clear about: I don't think that policing belongs to queer spaces. I don't think that policing, and even though I know that police gets, especially LGBT law enforcement feel like betrayed by the fact that “I'm a police LGBT officer, I [want to] be in this space because I earn it.” But the problem that they can't forget or separate themselves from the uniform they're wearing and what has represented for our, it's still percent for our queer and people of color in North American particular. Any region is different, but-- < ; affirmative> ; . What I would say is I believe that training reduce the impact of policing in our community. I believe that building relationships can build trust. That something happens. I can go to the police advocate for my people, and I want answers and vice versa, I think will help the police to understand why there is fear in our community of reporting to the police. Because when you have been called faggot by a police officer, when nobody is watching, it's your word against theirs. So that happens a lot of time < ; affirmative> ; on watch. But then there is no way we can prove it. That happens everywhere all the time. And so personally speaking, and this is, I wouldn't say it's a statement to my organization, even though I would say it's a common vision. I think collaborations with police, it's important to, in terms of creating relationships, reducing the impact of policing in our community. But I think the institution of policing is to be completely reinvented from zero. If we wanted to be the force that serves the community, it doesn't protect status quo. I know some people might say radical views, but I met police in different countries, just in North America and they were never on our side. Teater: Yeah. How does local policing here compare to in Italy per se or places in Europe? [Be]cause I'm not too familiar with their policing practices. Disposti: America is anomaly. The whole integration of LGBT experiences into the normalcy of the everyday life has a good outcome, but also has developed contradictions. The fact that the police needs to show up in our places and parade with us as a-- in North American seen as a progress, when in Italy it’[s] like, “Okay, we don't need to hate each other, but my job is policing. It's not to lead the LGBT movements into pro-policing know against policing.” Right? It's a different experience with police when I was, even though it was a different time policing in our LGBT experience in Italy was always a (unintelligible) < ; affirmative> ; . There were never-- nobody will ever think that we need policing in our streets with us. It's a different comparison. Of course, I don't live in Italy now, even though I go back every year and my family's there and they're still active. I definitely have a sense of what's going on, but < ; affirmative> ; , it's just a different thing. People look at us and say, why you need the whole military marching with you, why you need the whole-- and I understand the sense of the fact that LGBT people are everywhere. We [want to] show the normalcy, that being queer is not anything that's out there, but you know, you can be a police officer queer, a doctor, and I do like that. I do marry the cost that every price should be open to everyone that marches. But we got in a point here in Northern America, where now police is telling us how they [want to] show up. They are in San Diego in particular, they are dictating almost the way they should be representing themselves when maybe they have only three, four LGBT police officer. And they're using them as a token to show that the whole force is pro-LGBT. Then they run surveys through the UCSD [University of California San Diego] or through the service for the Sheriff department that you realize how much homophobic and transphobic and racist the force still is. To me, they haven't earned that spot. I'm just gonna be frank. And I told this to chief of police from Oceanside to San Diego to Chula Vista. I tell that in a very not threatening way, they trust me actually. And they like to talk to me because I'm truthful. I don't beat the bush around. I'm just gonna tell I'm gonna work with you and everything else. But I think you were invited at the table and now you think you own the table and that's okay with me, but the police has an incredible force in America. The lobby of policing, the elected officials get money from policing < ; affirmative> ; San Diego Police Departments extremely powerful, and they impose their will on, or social organizations and organizing. < ; affirmative> ; To ask, for instance, going back in the merit, I will have been happy to see the police marching maybe with their own t-shirts and shorts, you know, so that you can tell everybody you are the San Diego Police Department. And so that your department can be proud of you. And I think that should be alright. But the whole presence of uniform and weapons in a inclusive parade is meant to be inclusive of everyone. Includes those that are now super patriotic, or nationalistic, nationalist and so forth. I think it's very not conducive of a good relationship. It's just a parade. < ; affirmative> ; I don't feel it's very-- so I'm sorry if I took you a little bit off, but this is-- Max Disposti recounts his experience training police in North County. Disposti also shares his thoughts on police in queer spaces. Further he talks about what policing looks like in Italy for the LGBT and BIPOC communities. fear ; inclusive ; LGBT ; policing ; queer spaces LGBT police trainings ; local police ; Police and LGBT interations ; Police in Italy 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego 2929 The North County Resource Center eleven years later / Joy as an activist Teater < ; affirmative> ; I love that. I have a couple more questions. I'm [going to] switch gears a little bit. What does it mean to you that the resource center has been open for eleven years now? Disposti: < ; laugh> ; It means a lot. I can't believe it. And I don't look back too many times, when I do I get emotional. We had our first staff meeting after a while. I mean, in person and in the past six months alone, we hire[d] six people. So now we're[employees] twelve. < ; affirmative> ; And just look around the table with beautiful queer diversity around us, people with incredible (unintelligible). And I just couldn't even envision this years ago, I knew it was coming, but now seeing these people around me, each one of them gives so much, it brings so much to the center. I get really emotional, but I tend to look ahead of me in terms of, there's so much we [want to] do. Just to give you an idea, this center is really small. Now we really need that center is four or five times bigger, so we can grow and serve really serve North County. I don't feel, we are able to say we are the North County LGBT center because we serve everyone, but truly serving everyone from Escondido to--, it’s just not, at this moment, practically possible. It takes resources. < ; affirmative> ; Not just volunteers and time and resources and money. I can't imagine a queer person in Escondido, in order to be served they have to come to Oceanside. That alone is a barrier. We encourage, even though we like to serve the whole region, that there are new experiences that we can support them and share with them what we did so they can learn it. We're not in competition with other spaces growing and coming up, but it's not an easy thing to do. I would say I'm proud of what we did, of what we accomplished, but before I finish with the center experience, whenever that is, I [want to] see a huge building, thriving with a lot of people in it. And mostly with a lot of brand-new leaderships that can take that, toward and moving forward. That would make me happy in so many different ways. So, yeah. Teater: Oh, that's so nice. During your time as an activist, and this'll be my final question, during your time as an activist, what has brought you the most joy? Disposti: Oh gosh. I don't think I can single out one. Teater: What were some of the experiences? Disposti: Opening the center, the grand opening of the center. Definitely. People showed up for that dream. Really so many, I've been so fortunate to have so many memories, but definitely the opening the center. The meeting that we had two weeks ago, I told you looking around and see, oh my gosh, these are my people and the staff, and the center is growing. The people coming forward after a few years of months that visit us, and we help them and thanking us for truly-- And when I say save the life, I don't mean in such a-- these were people struggling with their own existence. When I say save the life, I mean, it physically not--I mean, taught them the way. Right. I don't [want to] be so pretentious of presumptions or, we are not telling people what to do, but many people really couldn't survive without our support that has to do with mostly believing in them. When stories like that are coming back to you, you know, you're on the right path, are doing the right work. So many, I can't pin it down, but mostly had to do with my community being there for my community and here at the center. So-- Teater: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing with me. Is there anything else you wanted to mention before we sign off? Disposti: No, it's hard to recollect now, but I'm sorry for getting through the emotions. Teater: Oh no, I love it all. It's perfect. Disposti: You know, me? Yeah. I don't shy away from that. No, thank you. Thank you for doing this work. That's what I [want to] say that I know how important it's because we're doing an archive here at the center as well, and we are doing the same interviews to the people that were here, the key leaders in the communities, even prior to the opening of the center, it's a very tedious, slow process that takes years in the making. I appreciate you and your team for even thinking about this. And for creating this record that one day will be so helpful for people, or maybe not for people to watch. And I wish I had that when I started the center, looking back to the stories and the voices of those that came before us, because we always stand on the shoulder. Those that came became before us, even though there was not an LGBT center, but, you know, yeah. That's what we got. Thank you. Thank you. Max Disposti reflects on his time at the resource center and the important contributions it has made to North County. Disposti recounts the grand opening of the resource center as a highlight of his time as an activist. barrier ; encourage ; LGBT ; North County ; queer diversity Accomplishments ; Activism ; Growing and serving North County ; LGBT advocate ; Reflecting on the resource center 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego Oral history Max Disposti is the founder and Executive Director of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. In this interview, Max discusses his upbringing in Rome, Italy as a queer male and his experience coming to the U.S. and his quest to open the Resource Center. Max Disposti also talks about the parallels in how the LGBTQ+ community is treated in Italy in comparison to America. MJ Teater: Hello. My name is MJ Teeter. Today is Tuesday, April 26th, 2022, and it is 3:00 PM. I' ; m here with Max Disposti. Thank you for joining me, Max. How are you today? Max Disposti: I' ; m honored to be here. Absolutely good. It' ; s a beautiful day out there. Even though I haven' ; t been able to go and see the light < ; laugh> ; < ; affirmative> ; I mean, at the center working, but we' ; re all very excited. Yes. Teater: Yeah. Great. For the recording, can you introduce yourself what your name is? Your pronouns, when you were born, and what you do for work? Disposti: Okay. My name is Max Disposti, pronouns he/him. I' ; m a cisgender gay male and I was born in Rome in 1968, long time ago. And I am the executive director and founder of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. Teater: Awesome. And what did your parents do for work? Disposti: Oh, my parents now are retired because they' ; re 85 years old. They' ; re still alive and they live in Rome, Italy, but they were both working class individuals, actually my mom stayed at home even though she was an activist all her life, very active feminist in the city of Rome and my father as well. Teater: Well, that' ; s awesome. < ; affirmative> ; Can you tell me about, maybe a little bit about your childhood and some of your educational experience? Disposti: Sure. When I grew up in Rome, you know, I came from a family that was poor, but you know not too poor not to provide for me in terms of, you know, food and a good safe environment, you know healthcare and education in Italy and Europe are still free. Definitely having access to a higher education was not a challenge, at least not from the standpoint of view of affordability. I grew up in a very safe environment, even though, you know, we were struggling every month to make ends meet. I would say my childhood has been affected by the activism of both of my parents. I only have one siblings that' ; s five years older than me also lives in Rome right now, my brother. And so throughout my life I was always exposed to diversity and others in Italy at the time. And still nowadays, there was a big migration from Africa and our country and Middle East or Eastern Europe. It depends on the time at the time, it was mostly from North Africa and my family was hosting people and greeting them and making sure that they were safe. I grew up in an environment where we always care about others, even though we had little for ourselves. Our table was always with more people and usually people from different cultures as well. My family exposed me to all of this, even though my own mom and my own dad didn' ; t have any academic education, so to speak, they couldn' ; t pursue a higher education, but also they were during the war at the time < ; affirmative> ; even going to high school was a privilege that just few wealthy families could afford. I consider myself lucky, of course, when I came out at the age of thirteen there' ; s always that struggle of homophobia, transphobia in a city, in a country that' ; s dominated by Catholic Church. Even though my parents were not religious whatsoever it infiltrates into the patriarchal narratives. When I came out as a gay man at the time it definitely was a surprise and an issue at first to a point I needed to detach from my family. They never pushed me outside so they were not against me but I needed my own space. I was thirteen, fourteen and I was already an activist in the community. But it was never a traumatic experience. I went through my time of self-affirmation and then I came back to them with more-- I knew I could conquer their hearts and mind around this because there were people I could talk to. I was definitely in a privileged position versus other friends of mine. They just end up on the street. < ; affirmative> ; . So that' ; s my childhood. That' ; s who I am. For me early on, on my sense of social justice, that activism around issues that they were not just LGBT related you know, human rights, immigration rights and against the war all the time. And at the time America, I was definitely not a place where I was aiming to live. It was this big monster imperialistic country that goes around to conquer spaces and lifestyles. We were not a fan of it, but love brought me to California and my first love, I would say serious enough to drag me there. And then one thing led to another, I end up staying in California. Again, though I overstay my visa. I became undocumented for about five, six years of my first time. I had to experience all of that fear because now I' ; m in love with someone. I didn' ; t want to lose them. < ; affirmative> ; so that' ; s a little bit my story, even though I always recognized my privilege to come from a place that was definitely not devastated by war and crime or violence. I still felt that I couldn' ; t go back to it just because if I did at the time, I could never return to the U.S. I did my best and my education helped me to go through all the application process and so forth to become a citizen and live the best of both world[s] pretty much, back at home and here in California. So, yeah, I hope I didn' ; t share too much. Teater: No, that' ; s great. I love this. Can you tell me a bit more about your education? What did you study? Disposti: When I was in Italy I was really driven by social studies since day one. But my high school years were troubled by a lot of strikes that I organized. I can' ; t even blame anybody, I was always striking for better schools, better conditions against discrimination. At the time being openly gay was a threat. It was a threat to myself. I think people never touched me or attacked me physically because I was so out that would have exposed them as well. Right. < ; affirmative> ; It was one of those I realized the more vocal out I was, the more protection I was bringing to myself because the people there to be that kinda person, especially in a religious country like that, there' ; s always that fade. I mean, that face that you had to keep, you know, in order decency. High school was problematic. I did finish high school and then I went to the university, high school was just-- in Europe, you already pick in high school what you think you' ; re gonna do in the future. It was graphic design related, a fashion design. Then I look around me, you' ; re in Italy with amazing talented artists. And I look at me and say, " ; oh my gosh, I would never make it." ; These people are just-- each one of them is an artist. I realize it wasn' ; t really for me as well. I went into university and developed more social sociology and social studies. I graduated from-- I got my bachelor[s] over there, but didn' ; t do much with it after a few years-- I mean when I was 30 years old, then I decided to move to the U.S. And here I started over my study and I took my bachelor[s] in political science. And then I went back to get a master [in] nonprofit management in leaderships, which I graduated from in 2016. Not really long ago. Recent, because it was a means for me, I didn' ; t need the academic title. I really needed to know more about the work I was doing, particularly in nonprofit. I had to tell you it was money well invested, even though I' ; m still paying for it, < ; laugh> ; after so many years. And it really helped me to understand more about nonprofit governments and leadership as well. In addition to what I already knew. So yeah, that' ; s my academic background pretty much. Teater: Man, you' ; ve lived such a fascinating life. < ; laugh> ; So you touched on it a little bit, but what was your career like before the North County Resource Center? Disposti: The north county resource center, I would say around 2007 or 2008 is when I made that decision to do what I do, even though at first was not a paid position. I needed to save as much as I could, reserve anything, because I didn' ; t know where this was going to take me. < ; affirmative> ; . Prior to that, when I came in the U.S. even though I was very active and volunteering for different things, I was fortunate enough-- at the beginning I was working in hotel, the hotel industry, I used to be in San Francisco for four years. Then it was a little bit of dot com, I was doing a lot of translating because I speak Spanish and Italian. I was doing a lot of translating from one and to another with platforms, Yahoo platform and so forth. That was a very well-paid job. < ; affirmative> ; Even at the time that helped me out a little bit uplift my resources, but I wasn' ; t documented at the time. I couldn' ; t really invest into school or nothing because I knew I just couldn' ; t do that to that point. And so I married my previous husband at the time in San Francisco, we decided to come down here because he had family members in the military. And when we moved to Oceanside was the place where it was cheaper and affordable. I did like the beach. I liked the fact it was Southern California. I bought at first into the life okay. Once I finish with my own immigration status, which lasted 10 years struggle. So that' ; s why I' ; m very, not only sympathetic, but not many people understand about what it means to be an immigrant in this place where I had at that point, the money and the lawyers to fight the system and an education, but if it was running away from any other country from famine, war, or violence, there is no way that the U.S. will have offered me an alternative there is just no one, legally speaking. There is not an alternative if you become undocumented to fix your record, really not even if you marry someone. It' ; s just not the way it is anymore. It took me 10 years. Yes. I feel privileged because I was able to go through all of that. In the process, I started working to make some money because my dream was always to open a community center. < ; affirmative> ; And as I was making the money, I joined some real estate firms. I was a broker and I became very successful because I was this guy that was very realistic. I didn' ; t have dreams of screwing people over to make money. My dream was building LGBT center. I think people saw that in me, that was honest that sometimes I told people, don' ; t buy this house because really too big for you, is not gonna be a good choice, because then you' ; re gonna have this huge mortgage. I was having this conversation with folks, and I think the more I was honest with them, the more business was coming to me. I was doing really well at a certain point, I needed to make the decision to pull the plug and go into unemployment. Mind you I didn' ; t say thousands of thousands of dollars, just enough to go by that unemployment lasted. I mean, I was unemployed for two years because the center couldn' ; t pay me. I mean, it was me < ; affirmative> ; and starting a center I needed full-time dedications on everything from gathering resources, putting people together, dynamics of power that you encounter, opening the door and having someone there eight hours a day, it was a huge, huge undertaking. But I never felt alone. I always felt fortunate that people trusted me in the process. And also my leadership style has always been very sharing. The resources was never about me, my name and putting my name in top of the things I did, even though at the beginning, it shows a lot me and the center. My name is very linked to it, but mostly I started the center, but I always bring the honor, the credit to the many people, many, many people that made the center what it is today. So that' ; s how it brought to me. I brought those corporate leaderships into this business. I brought my nonprofit academic research. I brought my life experience as an activist. And I think everything just worked together. I was there for the right reason and not to rush things through. And I just had hope in my community here that things will have become like they are today or even more. Yeah, the dream' ; s still on and we still have a lot of things we want to accomplish. < ; affirmative> ; Teater: In terms of the LGBT community, what was that like in North County? Because I know North County doesn' ; t really have much of a presence as far as LGBT representation, as much as say Downtown or Hillcrest has. Disposti: < ; affirmative> ; It was not easy. I had to fight internally and externally, it was opening the door of the center in a military town. I knew it was going to be difficult because it was at the time all North County was extremely conservative. We received threat. We had our windows smashed several times. We elected people that didn' ; t wanna meet us in person. This was obviously 2008 and 2009. Also 2008 was the year of the campaign for marriage equality. The center at this point was not open because we opened 2011, but we were active as a group. It was called North County LGBT coalition. So we were meeting weekly. We were an organizations with all we were grassroot at the same time. We had a board of directors. I mean we were an organization, but not yet with a space because we were saving money to open one. And yeah, North County was quite brutal, but also interesting enough because we were the only organized entity in North County, we received a lot of support and a lot of love from a lot of people from family and youth and so forth. We connected right away with preexisting grassroot groups in North County, in particular, with Link Lesbian in North County, there is a lot of history around what they' ; ve done here in North County for 20 years since women met under cover every Friday to create a support system for themselves, even the gay guys were cruising and the whole spots Oceanside had, the Marines were here. There was a lot of LGBT presence in Oceanside. We used to have two gay bars up to 2002, then they closed down just because the owners got old. But there was a lot of LGBT happening. It reminds me what it used to be in San Diego prior to the seventies when the Marines were there. And it became an LGBT Hillcrest [?] in particular place to go because there were a lot of Navy and Marines coming to town and finally they could be true to themself, right? Oceanside, North County was brewing with Marines that they were gay and Navy officers as well, but it was always-- the community was always in denial. Oceanside was a place where there were a lot of street workers, a lot of LGBT people, a lot of trans women, that had to, not by choice, in that case, to become strict workers because they didn' ; t have opportunity for jobs. So quite a rough place, when we came in people couldn' ; t believe that there [were] enough to put ourself out there and call ourself an LGBT center and having the rainbow flag outside. At first we had people just walking into the door. I remember the seniors in particular, literally were emotionally taken by the fact that we were just there. And at first I saw we' ; re not doing anything special. We' ; re just here with a flag outside, running some support groups, but we didn' ; t realize at first the impact we' ; re having soon, so many lives and people that came and dropped their life story on us, seniors and youth. And then all of a sudden we started seeing more and more, our amazing trans kiddos < ; laugh> ; . And that was when we started advocating within our own community with our old generation of gay male to the fact that this is the time for us to give back to those of us that are still struggling and understanding how, not only embrace our trans identities, not as a plus or a sign of solidarity, but as a full part of the community, that' ; s always been there, but always been hidden, not by their choice. It was the constitutions of our mission statement at the center. We were fortunate enough that since day one, when no one was talking about trans rights, other than trans people, of course, by meaning the mainstream of the LGBT community. < ; affirmative> ; Our board was composed by trans folks, the support groups. We started hiring therapists, everybody was volunteering at the time to work with our folks. And we had hundreds, hundreds of kids coming at the center during a week basis. And we learned so much from them, their struggle, their pain, one of this kids became my son because he decided to adopt me. Now he' ; s 22, so he' ; s already grown up and he' ; s a trans male, lives with his girlfriend now and everything else. But so it was a overall real experience. That was never a job for me, never just a job or never just a phase. Right. And I think at that time already, we realized that we needed to educate those old leaderships that they were popping up. And they were excited that we were there, but they started warning us. Hey, this place is becoming, you guys always only care about transcripts. It seems like, what about gay people? Or what about, I say, we don' ; t exclude anyone, but now we need to be together to enhance the voices. So those that haven' ; t been, that have been left out for so many years, because when I grew up in Rome at the age of thirteen, fourteen, I was always surrounded by trans people. They were my friends < ; affirmative> ; . When people tell me, " ; Oh, I dunno, what' ; s going on now? All of a sudden, everybody is trans or whatever," ; say, " ; no, it' ; s always been like that." ; We always been around. I say, we, even though I' ; m a cisgender gay guy, because I' ; ve been blessed to be educated through the experience for many years when I was thirteen, fourteen. For me to hear an older white male that tells me that I say " ; You haven' ; t looked around too much. You have been focused on yourself for too long." ; I would say that was a journey that allowed me to create a center with a culture and a vision where people, when they joined, they needed to know the old that were on board with the whole spectrum, LGTQI or that wasn' ; t the place for them. And we lost some people in the process. We lost some donors, no regrets. We earned again so much more. And now that people are finally recollecting the necessity to bring home what we' ; ve started thirty, forty years ago, or fifty years ago with Stonewall to bring it back home with everyone, or just some of us, I think, now people are looking at us and say, " ; Oh wow, you guys were right. You were always there." ; And yeah, we were, we are, and we will. And now we' ; re embracing the intersex identities and struggle because again, they' ; re being ask[ed] to be part of our community because many of them are, and that we' ; ve been advocating with them now at the children hospital in San Diego to change the horrible practices of mutilation of our organs just to feed the stereotypical expectations [of] what gender or sexes of birth is all about. We always been there in the forefront and when we weren' ; t, we look into ourself to do better. You can imagine how the past three, four years with the Black Lives Matter Movement with adding colors to our flag, how not only we wanted to embrace, but realize that all our identities are not just one identity, right? That we had to be vocal of about the struggle that our own queer people in our own community BIPOC folks are still enduring because of police brutality, institutional violence, and a way to do nonprofits has been whitewashed for many years. And how white supremacists in filtered into our own community. How it shows up? Recognizing how to do that and making yourself vulnerable to it and not defensive on when you might be perpetuating those dynamics. I think it' ; s part of everyday challenges is what I love the most to be honest, because I don' ; t wanna come to a point where I say, " ; Oh, I think I know everything, and now I got all of my boxes checked." ; Nothing else comes through when it' ; s not true. Life is always moving. Right. And so are we, so, yeah. That' ; s how difficult it was in North County, but I focus on the positive, but we lost some kids in the process in 2014 and by loss, I mean, Taylor, Alisana[?], Sage, and Tyler took their own life. There were transcripts that made national news and there were three of them served by our center. And still troubling for me to talk about it. But I always try to honor their lives because they didn' ; t go in pain, even though I wish they were here. But they taught us a bigger lesson. We believed our kids when they were telling us they were struggling to a point they didn' ; t wanna live anymore. There wasn' ; t just a face or a way to drag attention to themselves. It was a real struggle of pain. Some of us didn' ; t have the privilege. Some of us had the privilege not to experience, by being cisgender. We learn a lot in that process. Sorry. < ; laugh> ; Teater: No, it' ; s okay. I appreciate you sharing with me. I' ; ll shift to maybe a lighter subject < ; laugh> ; for a quick second. What are some of the resources and services that are offered at the North County Resource Center and how have they changed over time? Disposti: Yeah. You know we started in a way at the beginning, really. We didn' ; t have need assessment. We didn' ; t know really how to do any of it eleven years ago. We just said, " ; Hey, if more than three people come forward and tell us, can we have a super group? For seniors, for non-binary folks, for trans folks?" ; they say that means it' ; s needed. So, we' ; ll find a facilitator and create guidelines. We were always very serious around policies and procedures and guidelines and protecting ourselves and others in the process. So, we' ; re never easy about that. The opposite. I think that so many times, because while we were a grassroot organization, we knew exactly the level of liability we could incur by just gathering people. You know, there were people [who] were coming because they were stalking other people, right. They were. So how do we protect folks without introducing our own biases in the conversation? We created a support group model that responded to the need of the community. Definitely our trans and non-binary groups was the most populated resources. I mean, sometimes we have 40 people in one room cramped in there because it was the only big room. And I say, " ; Oh my God the fire department show[ed] up, now they' ; re gonna shut us down." ; Because it was a small space at the time. So super groups, then we started doing behavioral health and in the way we wanted to see happening for our people. So, things have changed and housing, case working-- I would say [in] two years we became more experienced. We know how to navigate the system and cut the BS about advocating for people and how to do it well. Creating more safety for our community. So sometimes we' ; re like, for instance, human trafficking is a real, real problem in our community. And we notice that a lot of LGBT centers and churches and sport clubs were place[s] where people are going to groom. And sometimes these people are just a year or two years older than the kid that you' ; re serving. You have to be careful to provide a safe space where you' ; re not there to over micromanage people and their own identity, their own sexuality, their own affirmation are the same, but at the same time, provide a space where people can come to you and tell you, " ; Hey, I' ; m an active fifteen year old person, I' ; m sexually active with this person. Maybe they' ; re at my age or a year older." ; How do we go about-- how can I be safe? And things like that. Our youth were coming to us opening their hearts because they knew we weren' ; t there to judge them. We learned all of that, how to be safe, right? If I have a teenager or thirteen [years old] [who] tells me that they were having a relationship, a sexual relationship with someone at twenty-two, we have major red flags. And we' ; re also mandated a reporter, right. We' ; ve done that too in the past. Navigating through all of that was quite interesting. And we learned how to do it. Now we know so much that we are the one training others youth providers around or the police, when the police shows up because someone called them because maybe they' ; re dynamic of stress. We tell the police what to do and how to approach other people. If they don' ; t agree with that, we don' ; t let them in. This is not place for additional violence and trauma. We educated a lot of these institutions that have been the cause of a lot trauma for our community. We work with them when we can, and we do training and we sit on the same table so that we can advocate and build the trust too. But at the same time, we make it clear that as a service, a clinical provider, this is not a space where they' ; re invited. We need to find other way, how to collaborate and do prevention in a community, without having them finding the queer spaces in San Diego County. < ; affirmative> ; That' ; s one of the things. Things have changed. And then COVID of course, we moved everything virtually. I have to say, now that we came back, they were coming back in person. We never closed the center. We always been open throughout the pandemic. We just couldn' ; t afford to close. We receive a lot of support from foundations and founders. They realize that we made everything possible to support people. I would say what has changed and now we have support groups, but people prefer the one-on-one because they can' ; t find socialization quite easily nowadays in different spaces, even virtually, but they like the one-on-one, " ; Hey, help me go through this," ; family reification or mental health crisis, or finding a job, or just supporting their ego and the self-esteem. It looks like they will be more successful to do that one by one, instead of putting everyone in a super group, which we do have some people just love that, but they' ; re usually mostly social, like let' ; s come together for an all queer and non-binary or let' ; s come together. And because those spaces are very vital, important. We are not denying that. I would say though, that we are seeing more progress by doing that different kind of intervention. So maybe we' ; re creating a hybrid, whatever the community needs. We' ; ll have to respond to that. Teater: Oh, I love that. What are some of the challenges that you and the center face today? Disposti: I would say challenges, but also opportunities. < ; affirmative> ; I do believe that LGBT centers are the Planned Parenthood of United States. And what I mean is we are vital spaces and resources for our queer community that no other institutions will ever provide. And preserving, not only preserving, but supporting those spaces. I think it' ; s a commitment to the government, state, federal, county will have to commit to, because as we know, as it' ; s happening, if you take away resources from a Planned Parenthood, that' ; s why the comparison, I mean, half of the population of women in particular, but not just women will not have access to reproductive rights, a fundamental human rights. And if they' ; re left to the single communities, and this is a conversation I have with our elected official Mike Levin, people that they' ; re being very willing to understand. I said, I realized during COVID that if it wasn' ; t < ; affirmative> ; for the private donors and support people with money that stepped in, we would not be open nowadays. And < ; affirmative> ; the government, you have [to] allow us to close our resources. And now it' ; s eleven years old that has helped thousands of people. And now employs twelve people. And that' ; s just not fair. This is not just a volunteer experience, this is the livelihood, but also the safe space for thousands of people. And that' ; s true in many region[s], right? For the San Diego Center, so forth. < ; affirmative> ; While it' ; s good for us to build our own funding streams so that you can stay independent. You don' ; t want the government to give you everything for everything you do, because then they want to have a say about how you run your business. But definitely it' ; s important that, especially in California, where supposedly we have a more progressive leadership to start supporting LGBT center so they can provide vital care, healthcare services, the others don' ; t provide. [Be]cause when people get sexually assaulted that are queer, they don' ; t go to the police station. They come to us when they are in a mental health crisis given by different reasons. They come to us first, when they' ; re in poverty, they come to us when experiencing certain kind of relationships or a tougher life or because of drugs or substance abuse, they come to us because they know we' ; re not here to judge. I would say that' ; s why we' ; re the planned parenthood of the community < ; affirmative> ; [be]cause it' ; s an essential vital resource. The challenges are that we' ; re not there yet, so that we are left alone to do this work. And now that we have experienced and seen the highest record of anti-LGBT legislation passing in Congress, a passing or proposed in different states and in Congress, this conversation, as you know, they hit home, our kids, even though they' ; re in California. And we know that we' ; re a little bit more protected here. We still have people at the school district level showing up and addressing and stigmatizing and penalizing our queerness. We still have people in position of power taking advantage of those narratives and bring back the same old recycled anti-LGBT religious based narratives. The trauma continues every time we hear that, even though it' ; s not here geographically speaking. That' ; s the challenges that in a time where communication goes past left and right, that sometimes even news needs to be vetted. The trauma that the previous administration has caused, we' ; re still dealing with it. Or the Trump administration for those in the record that might watch this years to come, or even now with all the anti-LGBT bills from Florida in Texas, in Ohio, South Dakota, I mean, these are thousands, hundreds of thousands LGBT youth in particular trans youth. They are denied their own assistance. And in 2022 I was hoping not to see that again, instead we are (inaudible) < ; affirmative> ; I have hope, I think we have a lot of things going our favor, including a history of resilience, but it' ; s tough. It' ; s tough for a lot of people. < ; affirmative> ; (Unintelligible) will fight because it' ; s value our own existence, but for a lot of people don' ; t have the means the energy < ; affirmative> ; and we will have to fight for them too. < ; affirmative> ; I see a lot of challenges. They are not just political or cultural, or educational and people really go around spreading a lot of misinformation around the (unintelligible) kids, supposedly getting surgery at the age of eight, which is total bullshit < ; affirmative> ; when it' ; s actually through the opposite. I think that' ; s the challenge of nowadays, they still go and the racism, the institutionalized violence that it' ; s part of the North American culture unfortunately. I think we are an extremely violent culture. < ; affirmative> ; I can say that because coming from another-- when a different kind of violence from the European experience in Italy in particular, I can say though, that a lot of people that are born and raised here don' ; t even realize the, the level of competitive individualism that' ; s being created here in North America to a point that now we have a national pandemic and a worldwide pandemic, and people are even struggling to care for their own neighbors by protecting their self and other, right. < ; affirmative> ; I' ; m really concerned about those dynamics of violence and isolation, individualism that our society has brought us to be < ; affirmative> ; That goes along with building an LGBT center. Teater: Yeah. You touched on this a little bit earlier, but given the history of policing with the LGBTQ+ community even in San Diego, how do you feel that police and sheriff trainings are received? Disposti: I' ; m gonna say that really, even though I train the Escondido police, the Oceanside police, Carlsbad Sheriff Department, we do training with FBI. I met amazing people in those spaces. I mean, here and there < ; affirmative> ; I don' ; t wanna generalize. [Be]cause I met folks with coming from, they shouldn' ; t be there in my opinion. I don' ; t have any trust that the police or any law enforcement will ever, ever represent the interest of those that are working and living. And those of us that are really struggling for a better tomorrow, I mean law enforcement is there to preserve the status quo and we don' ; t like the status quo < ; affirmative> ; of course we like democracy and all of that, but I don' ; t have any confidence in that. You know what I say that to even the officer I train, I tell them I don' ; t dehumanize you because I think people [that] are there are human beings and making their own decisions. Their own sacrifices with their family and many of them risk their life, < ; affirmative> ; for something that [they' ; re] living. I' ; m not here to dehumanize individuals and call them and isolate them. I have a lot of relationships with police in the relations to, in a very transparent way, there are not. For instance, we have meetings that we sit at the table I' ; m always very clear about: I don' ; t think that policing belongs to queer spaces. I don' ; t think that policing, and even though I know that police gets, especially LGBT law enforcement feel like betrayed by the fact that " ; I' ; m a police LGBT officer, I [want to] be in this space because I earn it." ; But the problem that they can' ; t forget or separate themselves from the uniform they' ; re wearing and what has represented for our, it' ; s still percent for our queer and people of color in North American particular. Any region is different, but-- < ; affirmative> ; . What I would say is I believe that training reduce the impact of policing in our community. I believe that building relationships can build trust. That something happens. I can go to the police advocate for my people, and I want answers and vice versa, I think will help the police to understand why there is fear in our community of reporting to the police. Because when you have been called faggot by a police officer, when nobody is watching, it' ; s your word against theirs. So that happens a lot of time < ; affirmative> ; on watch. But then there is no way we can prove it. That happens everywhere all the time. And so personally speaking, and this is, I wouldn' ; t say it' ; s a statement to my organization, even though I would say it' ; s a common vision. I think collaborations with police, it' ; s important to, in terms of creating relationships, reducing the impact of policing in our community. But I think the institution of policing is to be completely reinvented from zero. If we wanted to be the force that serves the community, it doesn' ; t protect status quo. I know some people might say radical views, but I met police in different countries, just in North America and they were never on our side. Teater: Yeah. How does local policing here compare to in Italy per se or places in Europe? [Be]cause I' ; m not too familiar with their policing practices. Disposti: America is anomaly. The whole integration of LGBT experiences into the normalcy of the everyday life has a good outcome, but also has developed contradictions. The fact that the police needs to show up in our places and parade with us as a-- in North American seen as a progress, when in Italy it' ; [s] like, " ; Okay, we don' ; t need to hate each other, but my job is policing. It' ; s not to lead the LGBT movements into pro-policing know against policing." ; Right? It' ; s a different experience with police when I was, even though it was a different time policing in our LGBT experience in Italy was always a (unintelligible) < ; affirmative> ; . There were never-- nobody will ever think that we need policing in our streets with us. It' ; s a different comparison. Of course, I don' ; t live in Italy now, even though I go back every year and my family' ; s there and they' ; re still active. I definitely have a sense of what' ; s going on, but < ; affirmative> ; , it' ; s just a different thing. People look at us and say, why you need the whole military marching with you, why you need the whole-- and I understand the sense of the fact that LGBT people are everywhere. We [want to] show the normalcy, that being queer is not anything that' ; s out there, but you know, you can be a police officer queer, a doctor, and I do like that. I do marry the cost that every price should be open to everyone that marches. But we got in a point here in Northern America, where now police is telling us how they [want to] show up. They are in San Diego in particular, they are dictating almost the way they should be representing themselves when maybe they have only three, four LGBT police officer. And they' ; re using them as a token to show that the whole force is pro-LGBT. Then they run surveys through the UCSD [University of California San Diego] or through the service for the Sheriff department that you realize how much homophobic and transphobic and racist the force still is. To me, they haven' ; t earned that spot. I' ; m just gonna be frank. And I told this to chief of police from Oceanside to San Diego to Chula Vista. I tell that in a very not threatening way, they trust me actually. And they like to talk to me because I' ; m truthful. I don' ; t beat the bush around. I' ; m just gonna tell I' ; m gonna work with you and everything else. But I think you were invited at the table and now you think you own the table and that' ; s okay with me, but the police has an incredible force in America. The lobby of policing, the elected officials get money from policing < ; affirmative> ; San Diego Police Departments extremely powerful, and they impose their will on, or social organizations and organizing. < ; affirmative> ; To ask, for instance, going back in the merit, I will have been happy to see the police marching maybe with their own t-shirts and shorts, you know, so that you can tell everybody you are the San Diego Police Department. And so that your department can be proud of you. And I think that should be alright. But the whole presence of uniform and weapons in a inclusive parade is meant to be inclusive of everyone. Includes those that are now super patriotic, or nationalistic, nationalist and so forth. I think it' ; s very not conducive of a good relationship. It' ; s just a parade. < ; affirmative> ; I don' ; t feel it' ; s very-- so I' ; m sorry if I took you a little bit off, but this is-- Teater: No, you' ; re good. I' ; m right there with you. Disposti: It' ; s such a current happening. Maybe people watching this many years from now, I wonder what they will think of it, but right now I feel that we' ; re not there. They have to earn their space. And also let' ; s remember talking about our region when you have a pride parade, you have people coming from all over the county, you have people coming from LA Mesa, Fallbrook in places where policing, the impact of policing on the streets is not as kind of transparent as it could be in any other spaces where we earn that. Right. Like in Hillcrest < ; affirmative> ; right. We need to be mindful of the experience of our queer people of policing in Chula Vista or other places, not just San Diego proper. What you see the police marching, is not everyone has the same reaction, and you cannot normalize policing by just marching an parade. You need to work every single day. So that' ; s my-- Teater: Yeah, exactly. So, what is the center' ; s relationship with military members of the community then? [Be]cause I know they sort of have a kinship, but like they' ; re different, but they' ; re not, but they are. Disposti: Well. Because we cannot, I mean, I can tell you my personal stance about < ; affirmative> ; worth' ; s, and army, and the military. I think we spend too much money into it when this country struggle to support its own people that live here. Obviously, I' ; m not sympathetic about any choice of military that' ; s military related, but when it comes to LGBT experience, I have to say the immediate impact of let' ; s say the Marines here, the Navy on our immediate community is incomparable with policing. And what I mean, they' ; re not doing racial profiling here in San Diego. They' ; re not doing-- There is not a direct impact and < ; affirmative> ; for a city like Oceanside, which every family member has someone in the military. I would say that also understanding the importance of what they give and how they feel it. That is their dedication, their passion. We need to respect that. We serve a lot of veterans, a lot of military folks, but many of these folks, LGBT usually we serve them because they struggle through the military services. They went through < ; affirmative> ; health, sexual assault abuses that could never report from their commanders, < ; affirmative> ; transphobia, homophobia, punishments of any kind. We support folks because these are our people. < ; affirmative> ; It' ; s not my place to tell them where they should go. We meet them where they are. < ; affirmative> ; But definitely it' ; s a different experience. I would say I met amazing folks that actually have been a resource for the center and helping others from the army, from some of the Marines or the many, many veterans that they are a part of our volunteer team. I' ; m sure some of them might not share my views. These are personal view, again, not the center view, but definitely we did think about building a center in a military community. You could completely subject to it and be dictated on how to express your sentiment around military actions. You can be who you are and supporting the queer people around the world. That' ; s my goal as a human rights and civil rights activist that I-- doesn' ; t believe in any borders, or in any particular nationality, I focus on the help that my folks need in the entire world. If the America gets in the middle of that, then I will definitely denounce it but it' ; s beyond the scope of the center. It' ; s more my personal perspective. < ; affirmative> ; I think we are all connected in so many different ways. Teater < ; affirmative> ; I love that. I have a couple more questions. I' ; m [going to] switch gears a little bit. What does it mean to you that the resource center has been open for eleven years now? Disposti: < ; laugh> ; It means a lot. I can' ; t believe it. And I don' ; t look back too many times, when I do I get emotional. We had our first staff meeting after a while. I mean, in person and in the past six months alone, we hire[d] six people. So now we' ; re[employees] twelve. < ; affirmative> ; And just look around the table with beautiful queer diversity around us, people with incredible (unintelligible). And I just couldn' ; t even envision this years ago, I knew it was coming, but now seeing these people around me, each one of them gives so much, it brings so much to the center. I get really emotional, but I tend to look ahead of me in terms of, there' ; s so much we [want to] do. Just to give you an idea, this center is really small. Now we really need that center is four or five times bigger, so we can grow and serve really serve North County. I don' ; t feel, we are able to say we are the North County LGBT center because we serve everyone, but truly serving everyone from Escondido to--, it' ; s just not, at this moment, practically possible. It takes resources. < ; affirmative> ; Not just volunteers and time and resources and money. I can' ; t imagine a queer person in Escondido, in order to be served they have to come to Oceanside. That alone is a barrier. We encourage, even though we like to serve the whole region, that there are new experiences that we can support them and share with them what we did so they can learn it. We' ; re not in competition with other spaces growing and coming up, but it' ; s not an easy thing to do. I would say I' ; m proud of what we did, of what we accomplished, but before I finish with the center experience, whenever that is, I [want to] see a huge building, thriving with a lot of people in it. And mostly with a lot of brand-new leaderships that can take that, toward and moving forward. That would make me happy in so many different ways. So, yeah. Teater: Oh, that' ; s so nice. During your time as an activist, and this' ; ll be my final question, during your time as an activist, what has brought you the most joy? Disposti: Oh gosh. I don' ; t think I can single out one. Teater: What were some of the experiences? Disposti: Opening the center, the grand opening of the center. Definitely. People showed up for that dream. Really so many, I' ; ve been so fortunate to have so many memories, but definitely the opening the center. The meeting that we had two weeks ago, I told you looking around and see, oh my gosh, these are my people and the staff, and the center is growing. The people coming forward after a few years of months that visit us, and we help them and thanking us for truly-- And when I say save the life, I don' ; t mean in such a-- these were people struggling with their own existence. When I say save the life, I mean, it physically not--I mean, taught them the way. Right. I don' ; t [want to] be so pretentious of presumptions or, we are not telling people what to do, but many people really couldn' ; t survive without our support that has to do with mostly believing in them. When stories like that are coming back to you, you know, you' ; re on the right path, are doing the right work. So many, I can' ; t pin it down, but mostly had to do with my community being there for my community and here at the center. So-- Teater: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing with me. Is there anything else you wanted to mention before we sign off? Disposti: No, it' ; s hard to recollect now, but I' ; m sorry for getting through the emotions. Teater: Oh no, I love it all. It' ; s perfect. Disposti: You know, me? Yeah. I don' ; t shy away from that. No, thank you. Thank you for doing this work. That' ; s what I [want to] say that I know how important it' ; s because we' ; re doing an archive here at the center as well, and we are doing the same interviews to the people that were here, the key leaders in the communities, even prior to the opening of the center, it' ; s a very tedious, slow process that takes years in the making. I appreciate you and your team for even thinking about this. And for creating this record that one day will be so helpful for people, or maybe not for people to watch. And I wish I had that when I started the center, looking back to the stories and the voices of those that came before us, because we always stand on the shoulder. Those that came became before us, even though there was not an LGBT center, but, you know, yeah. That' ; s what we got. Thank you. Thank you. Teater: Thank you. Well, I' ; m [going to] stop the recording now. Disposti: Perfect. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Title
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Disposti, Max. Interview April 26, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
Max Disposti is the founder and Executive Director of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. In this interview, Max discusses his upbringing in Rome, Italy as a queer male and his experience coming to the U.S. and his quest to open the Resource Center. Max Disposti also talks about the parallels in how the LGBTQ+ community is treated in Italy in comparison to America.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-14
Subject
The topic of the resource
LGBTQ+ activism
LGBTQ+ rights
North County LGBT Resource Center -- California -- Oceanside
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-04-26
Format
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audio
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Rome (Italy)
North County (San Diego County, Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Max Disposti
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Max Disposti
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Madison Teater
Activists and activism
Community history
History Department internship
Immigrant experience
LGBTQIA+ experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e24d158796639884e608761a96307eb3.pdf
2610199d500af06717da987ed89ee24d
PDF Text
Text
MAX DISPOSTI
TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW,
2022-04-26
MJ Teater:
Hello. My name is MJ Teeter. Today is Tuesday, April 26th, 2022, and it is 3:00 PM. I'm here with Max
Disposti. Thank you for joining me, Max. How are you today?
Max Disposti:
I'm honored to be here. Absolutely good. It's a beautiful day out there. Even though I haven't been able
to go and see the light <laugh> <affirmative> I mean, at the center working, but we're all very excited.
Yes.
Teater:
Yeah. Great. For the recording, can you introduce yourself what your name is? Your pronouns, when you
were born, and what you do for work?
Disposti:
Okay. My name is Max Disposti, pronouns he/him. I'm a cisgender gay male and I was born in Rome in
1968, long time ago. And I am the executive director and founder of the North County LGBTQ Resource
Center.
Teater:
Awesome. And what did your parents do for work?
Disposti:
Oh, my parents now are retired because they're 85 years old. They're still alive and they live in Rome,
Italy, but they were both working class individuals, actually my mom stayed at home even though she
was an activist all her life, very active feminist in the city of Rome and my father as well.
Teater:
Well, that's awesome. <affirmative> Can you tell me about, maybe a little bit about your childhood and
some of your educational experience?
Disposti:
Sure. When I grew up in Rome, you know, I came from a family that was poor, but you know not too
poor not to provide for me in terms of, you know, food and a good safe environment, you know
healthcare and education in Italy and Europe are still free. Definitely having access to a higher education
was not a challenge, at least not from the standpoint of view of affordability. I grew up in a very safe
environment, even though, you know, we were struggling every month to make ends meet. I would say
my childhood has been affected by the activism of both of my parents. I only have one siblings that's five
years older than me also lives in Rome right now, my brother. And so throughout my life I was always
exposed to diversity and others in Italy at the time. And still nowadays, there was a big migration from
Africa and our country and Middle East or Eastern Europe. It depends on the time at the time, it was
mostly from North Africa and my family was hosting people and greeting them and making sure that
they were safe. I grew up in an environment where we always care about others, even though we had
little for ourselves. Our table was always with more people and usually people from different cultures as
well. My family exposed me to all of this, even though my own mom and my own dad didn't have any
academic education, so to speak, they couldn't pursue a higher education, but also they were during the
Transcribed By
Sierra Jenkins
1
2022-10-21
�MAX DISPOSTI
TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW,
2022-04-26
war at the time <affirmative> even going to high school was a privilege that just few wealthy families
could afford. I consider myself lucky, of course, when I came out at the age of thirteen there's always
that struggle of homophobia, transphobia in a city, in a country that's dominated by Catholic Church.
Even though my parents were not religious whatsoever it infiltrates into the patriarchal narratives.
When I came out as a gay man at the time it definitely was a surprise and an issue at first to a point I
needed to detach from my family. They never pushed me outside so they were not against me but I
needed my own space. I was thirteen, fourteen and I was already an activist in the community. But it
was never a traumatic experience. I went through my time of self-affirmation and then I came back to
them with more-- I knew I could conquer their hearts and mind around this because there were people I
could talk to. I was definitely in a privileged position versus other friends of mine. They just end up on
the street. <affirmative>. So that's my childhood. That's who I am. For me early on, on my sense of social
justice, that activism around issues that they were not just LGBT related you know, human rights,
immigration rights and against the war all the time. And at the time America, I was definitely not a place
where I was aiming to live. It was this big monster imperialistic country that goes around to conquer
spaces and lifestyles. We were not a fan of it, but love brought me to California and my first love, I
would say serious enough to drag me there. And then one thing led to another, I end up staying in
California. Again, though I overstay my visa. I became undocumented for about five, six years of my first
time. I had to experience all of that fear because now I'm in love with someone. I didn't want to lose
them. <affirmative> so that's a little bit my story, even though I always recognized my privilege to come
from a place that was definitely not devastated by war and crime or violence. I still felt that I couldn't go
back to it just because if I did at the time, I could never return to the U.S. I did my best and my education
helped me to go through all the application process and so forth to become a citizen and live the best of
both world[s] pretty much, back at home and here in California. So, yeah, I hope I didn't share too much.
Teater:
No, that's great. I love this. Can you tell me a bit more about your education? What did you study?
Disposti:
When I was in Italy I was really driven by social studies since day one. But my high school years were
troubled by a lot of strikes that I organized. I can’t even blame anybody, I was always striking for better
schools, better conditions against discrimination. At the time being openly gay was a threat. It was a
threat to myself. I think people never touched me or attacked me physically because I was so out that
would have exposed them as well. Right. <affirmative> It was one of those I realized the more vocal out I
was, the more protection I was bringing to myself because the people there to be that kinda person,
especially in a religious country like that, there's always that fade. I mean, that face that you had to
keep, you know, in order decency. High school was problematic. I did finish high school and then I went
to the university, high school was just-- in Europe, you already pick in high school what you think you're
gonna do in the future. It was graphic design related, a fashion design. Then I look around me, you're in
Italy with amazing talented artists. And I look at me and say, “oh my gosh, I would never make it.” These
people are just-- each one of them is an artist. I realize it wasn't really for me as well. I went into
university and developed more social sociology and social studies. I graduated from-- I got my
bachelor[s] over there, but didn't do much with it after a few years-- I mean when I was 30 years old,
then I decided to move to the U.S. And here I started over my study and I took my bachelor[s] in political
science. And then I went back to get a master [in] nonprofit management in leaderships, which I
graduated from in 2016. Not really long ago. Recent, because it was a means for me, I didn't need the
academic title. I really needed to know more about the work I was doing, particularly in nonprofit. I had
to tell you it was money well invested, even though I'm still paying for it, <laugh> after so many years.
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And it really helped me to understand more about nonprofit governments and leadership as well. In
addition to what I already knew. So yeah, that's my academic background pretty much.
Teater:
Man, you've lived such a fascinating life. <laugh> So you touched on it a little bit, but what was your
career like before the North County Resource Center?
Disposti:
The north county resource center, I would say around 2007 or 2008 is when I made that decision to do
what I do, even though at first was not a paid position. I needed to save as much as I could, reserve
anything, because I didn't know where this was going to take me. <affirmative>. Prior to that, when I
came in the U.S. even though I was very active and volunteering for different things, I was fortunate
enough-- at the beginning I was working in hotel, the hotel industry, I used to be in San Francisco for
four years. Then it was a little bit of dot com, I was doing a lot of translating because I speak Spanish and
Italian. I was doing a lot of translating from one and to another with platforms, Yahoo platform and so
forth. That was a very well-paid job. <affirmative> Even at the time that helped me out a little bit uplift
my resources, but I wasn't documented at the time. I couldn't really invest into school or nothing
because I knew I just couldn't do that to that point. And so I married my previous husband at the time in
San Francisco, we decided to come down here because he had family members in the military. And
when we moved to Oceanside was the place where it was cheaper and affordable. I did like the beach. I
liked the fact it was Southern California. I bought at first into the life okay. Once I finish with my own
immigration status, which lasted 10 years struggle. So that's why I'm very, not only sympathetic, but not
many people understand about what it means to be an immigrant in this place where I had at that point,
the money and the lawyers to fight the system and an education, but if it was running away from any
other country from famine, war, or violence, there is no way that the U.S. will have offered me an
alternative there is just no one, legally speaking. There is not an alternative if you become
undocumented to fix your record, really not even if you marry someone. It's just not the way it is
anymore. It took me 10 years. Yes. I feel privileged because I was able to go through all of that. In the
process, I started working to make some money because my dream was always to open a community
center. <affirmative> And as I was making the money, I joined some real estate firms. I was a broker and
I became very successful because I was this guy that was very realistic. I didn't have dreams of screwing
people over to make money. My dream was building LGBT center. I think people saw that in me, that
was honest that sometimes I told people, don't buy this house because really too big for you, is not
gonna be a good choice, because then you're gonna have this huge mortgage. I was having this
conversation with folks, and I think the more I was honest with them, the more business was coming to
me. I was doing really well at a certain point, I needed to make the decision to pull the plug and go into
unemployment. Mind you I didn't say thousands of thousands of dollars, just enough to go by that
unemployment lasted. I mean, I was unemployed for two years because the center couldn't pay me. I
mean, it was me <affirmative> and starting a center I needed full-time dedications on everything from
gathering resources, putting people together, dynamics of power that you encounter, opening the door
and having someone there eight hours a day, it was a huge, huge undertaking. But I never felt alone. I
always felt fortunate that people trusted me in the process. And also my leadership style has always
been very sharing. The resources was never about me, my name and putting my name in top of the
things I did, even though at the beginning, it shows a lot me and the center. My name is very linked to it,
but mostly I started the center, but I always bring the honor, the credit to the many people, many, many
people that made the center what it is today. So that's how it brought to me. I brought those corporate
leaderships into this business. I brought my nonprofit academic research. I brought my life experience as
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an activist. And I think everything just worked together. I was there for the right reason and not to rush
things through. And I just had hope in my community here that things will have become like they are
today or even more. Yeah, the dream's still on and we still have a lot of things we want to accomplish.
<affirmative>
Teater:
In terms of the LGBT community, what was that like in North County? Because I know North County
doesn't really have much of a presence as far as LGBT representation, as much as say Downtown or
Hillcrest has.
Disposti:
<affirmative> It was not easy. I had to fight internally and externally, it was opening the door of the
center in a military town. I knew it was going to be difficult because it was at the time all North County
was extremely conservative. We received threat. We had our windows smashed several times. We
elected people that didn't wanna meet us in person. This was obviously 2008 and 2009. Also 2008 was
the year of the campaign for marriage equality. The center at this point was not open because we
opened 2011, but we were active as a group. It was called North County LGBT coalition. So we were
meeting weekly. We were an organizations with all we were grassroot at the same time. We had a board
of directors. I mean we were an organization, but not yet with a space because we were saving money
to open one. And yeah, North County was quite brutal, but also interesting enough because we were the
only organized entity in North County, we received a lot of support and a lot of love from a lot of people
from family and youth and so forth. We connected right away with preexisting grassroot groups in North
County, in particular, with Link Lesbian in North County, there is a lot of history around what they've
done here in North County for 20 years since women met under cover every Friday to create a support
system for themselves, even the gay guys were cruising and the whole spots Oceanside had, the
Marines were here. There was a lot of LGBT presence in Oceanside. We used to have two gay bars up to
2002, then they closed down just because the owners got old. But there was a lot of LGBT happening. It
reminds me what it used to be in San Diego prior to the seventies when the Marines were there. And it
became an LGBT Hillcrest [?] in particular place to go because there were a lot of Navy and Marines
coming to town and finally they could be true to themself, right? Oceanside, North County was brewing
with Marines that they were gay and Navy officers as well, but it was always-- the community was
always in denial. Oceanside was a place where there were a lot of street workers, a lot of LGBT people, a
lot of trans women, that had to, not by choice, in that case, to become strict workers because they
didn't have opportunity for jobs. So quite a rough place, when we came in people couldn't believe that
there [were] enough to put ourself out there and call ourself an LGBT center and having the rainbow flag
outside. At first we had people just walking into the door. I remember the seniors in particular, literally
were emotionally taken by the fact that we were just there. And at first I saw we're not doing anything
special. We're just here with a flag outside, running some support groups, but we didn't realize at first
the impact we're having soon, so many lives and people that came and dropped their life story on us,
seniors and youth. And then all of a sudden we started seeing more and more, our amazing trans kiddos
<laugh>. And that was when we started advocating within our own community with our old generation
of gay male to the fact that this is the time for us to give back to those of us that are still struggling and
understanding how, not only embrace our trans identities, not as a plus or a sign of solidarity, but as a
full part of the community, that's always been there, but always been hidden, not by their choice. It was
the constitutions of our mission statement at the center. We were fortunate enough that since day one,
when no one was talking about trans rights, other than trans people, of course, by meaning the
mainstream of the LGBT community. <affirmative> Our board was composed by trans folks, the support
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groups. We started hiring therapists, everybody was volunteering at the time to work with our folks.
And we had hundreds, hundreds of kids coming at the center during a week basis. And we learned so
much from them, their struggle, their pain, one of this kids became my son because he decided to adopt
me. Now he's 22, so he's already grown up and he's a trans male, lives with his girlfriend now and
everything else. But so it was a overall real experience. That was never a job for me, never just a job or
never just a phase. Right. And I think at that time already, we realized that we needed to educate those
old leaderships that they were popping up. And they were excited that we were there, but they started
warning us. Hey, this place is becoming, you guys always only care about transcripts. It seems like, what
about gay people? Or what about, I say, we don't exclude anyone, but now we need to be together to
enhance the voices. So those that haven't been, that have been left out for so many years, because
when I grew up in Rome at the age of thirteen, fourteen, I was always surrounded by trans people. They
were my friends <affirmative>. When people tell me, “Oh, I dunno, what's going on now? All of a
sudden, everybody is trans or whatever,” say, “no, it's always been like that.” We always been around. I
say, we, even though I'm a cisgender gay guy, because I've been blessed to be educated through the
experience for many years when I was thirteen, fourteen. For me to hear an older white male that tells
me that I say “You haven't looked around too much. You have been focused on yourself for too long.” I
would say that was a journey that allowed me to create a center with a culture and a vision where
people, when they joined, they needed to know the old that were on board with the whole spectrum,
LGTQI or that wasn't the place for them. And we lost some people in the process. We lost some donors,
no regrets. We earned again so much more. And now that people are finally recollecting the necessity to
bring home what we’ve started thirty, forty years ago, or fifty years ago with Stonewall to bring it back
home with everyone, or just some of us, I think, now people are looking at us and say, “Oh wow, you
guys were right. You were always there.” And yeah, we were, we are, and we will. And now we're
embracing the intersex identities and struggle because again, they're being ask[ed] to be part of our
community because many of them are, and that we've been advocating with them now at the children
hospital in San Diego to change the horrible practices of mutilation of our organs just to feed the
stereotypical expectations [of] what gender or sexes of birth is all about. We always been there in the
forefront and when we weren't, we look into ourself to do better. You can imagine how the past three,
four years with the Black Lives Matter Movement with adding colors to our flag, how not only we
wanted to embrace, but realize that all our identities are not just one identity, right? That we had to be
vocal of about the struggle that our own queer people in our own community BIPOC folks are still
enduring because of police brutality, institutional violence, and a way to do nonprofits has been
whitewashed for many years. And how white supremacists in filtered into our own community. How it
shows up? Recognizing how to do that and making yourself vulnerable to it and not defensive on when
you might be perpetuating those dynamics. I think it's part of everyday challenges is what I love the
most to be honest, because I don't wanna come to a point where I say, “Oh, I think I know everything,
and now I got all of my boxes checked.” Nothing else comes through when it's not true. Life is always
moving. Right. And so are we, so, yeah. That's how difficult it was in North County, but I focus on the
positive, but we lost some kids in the process in 2014 and by loss, I mean, Taylor, Alisana[?], Sage, and
Tyler took their own life. There were transcripts that made national news and there were three of them
served by our center. And still troubling for me to talk about it. But I always try to honor their lives
because they didn't go in pain, even though I wish they were here. But they taught us a bigger lesson.
We believed our kids when they were telling us they were struggling to a point they didn't wanna live
anymore. There wasn't just a face or a way to drag attention to themselves. It was a real struggle of
pain. Some of us didn't have the privilege. Some of us had the privilege not to experience, by being
cisgender. We learn a lot in that process. Sorry. <laugh>
Teater:
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No, it's okay. I appreciate you sharing with me. I'll shift to maybe a lighter subject <laugh> for a quick
second. What are some of the resources and services that are offered at the North County Resource
Center and how have they changed over time?
Disposti:
Yeah. You know we started in a way at the beginning, really. We didn't have need assessment. We didn't
know really how to do any of it eleven years ago. We just said, “Hey, if more than three people come
forward and tell us, can we have a super group? For seniors, for non-binary folks, for trans folks?” they
say that means it's needed. So, we'll find a facilitator and create guidelines. We were always very serious
around policies and procedures and guidelines and protecting ourselves and others in the process. So,
we're never easy about that. The opposite. I think that so many times, because while we were a
grassroot organization, we knew exactly the level of liability we could incur by just gathering people. You
know, there were people [who] were coming because they were stalking other people, right. They were.
So how do we protect folks without introducing our own biases in the conversation? We created a
support group model that responded to the need of the community. Definitely our trans and non-binary
groups was the most populated resources. I mean, sometimes we have 40 people in one room cramped
in there because it was the only big room. And I say, “Oh my God the fire department show[ed] up, now
they're gonna shut us down.” Because it was a small space at the time. So super groups, then we started
doing behavioral health and in the way we wanted to see happening for our people. So, things have
changed and housing, case working-- I would say [in] two years we became more experienced. We know
how to navigate the system and cut the BS about advocating for people and how to do it well. Creating
more safety for our community. So sometimes we're like, for instance, human trafficking is a real, real
problem in our community. And we notice that a lot of LGBT centers and churches and sport clubs were
place[s] where people are going to groom. And sometimes these people are just a year or two years
older than the kid that you're serving. You have to be careful to provide a safe space where you're not
there to over micromanage people and their own identity, their own sexuality, their own affirmation are
the same, but at the same time, provide a space where people can come to you and tell you, “Hey, I'm
an active fifteen year old person, I’m sexually active with this person. Maybe they're at my age or a year
older.” How do we go about-- how can I be safe? And things like that. Our youth were coming to us
opening their hearts because they knew we weren’t there to judge them. We learned all of that, how to
be safe, right? If I have a teenager or thirteen [years old] [who] tells me that they were having a
relationship, a sexual relationship with someone at twenty-two, we have major red flags. And we’re also
mandated a reporter, right. We've done that too in the past. Navigating through all of that was quite
interesting. And we learned how to do it. Now we know so much that we are the one training others
youth providers around or the police, when the police shows up because someone called them because
maybe they're dynamic of stress. We tell the police what to do and how to approach other people. If
they don't agree with that, we don't let them in. This is not place for additional violence and trauma. We
educated a lot of these institutions that have been the cause of a lot trauma for our community. We
work with them when we can, and we do training and we sit on the same table so that we can advocate
and build the trust too. But at the same time, we make it clear that as a service, a clinical provider, this is
not a space where they're invited. We need to find other way, how to collaborate and do prevention in a
community, without having them finding the queer spaces in San Diego County. <affirmative> That's one
of the things. Things have changed. And then COVID of course, we moved everything virtually. I have to
say, now that we came back, they were coming back in person. We never closed the center. We always
been open throughout the pandemic. We just couldn't afford to close. We receive a lot of support from
foundations and founders. They realize that we made everything possible to support people. I would say
what has changed and now we have support groups, but people prefer the one-on-one because they
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can't find socialization quite easily nowadays in different spaces, even virtually, but they like the one-onone, “Hey, help me go through this,” family reification or mental health crisis, or finding a job, or just
supporting their ego and the self-esteem. It looks like they will be more successful to do that one by
one, instead of putting everyone in a super group, which we do have some people just love that, but
they're usually mostly social, like let's come together for an all queer and non-binary or let's come
together. And because those spaces are very vital, important. We are not denying that. I would say
though, that we are seeing more progress by doing that different kind of intervention. So maybe we're
creating a hybrid, whatever the community needs. We'll have to respond to that.
Teater:
Oh, I love that. What are some of the challenges that you and the center face today?
Disposti:
I would say challenges, but also opportunities. <affirmative> I do believe that LGBT centers are the
Planned Parenthood of United States. And what I mean is we are vital spaces and resources for our
queer community that no other institutions will ever provide. And preserving, not only preserving, but
supporting those spaces. I think it's a commitment to the government, state, federal, county will have to
commit to, because as we know, as it's happening, if you take away resources from a Planned
Parenthood, that's why the comparison, I mean, half of the population of women in particular, but not
just women will not have access to reproductive rights, a fundamental human rights. And if they're left
to the single communities, and this is a conversation I have with our elected official Mike Levin, people
that they're being very willing to understand. I said, I realized during COVID that if it wasn't
<affirmative> for the private donors and support people with money that stepped in, we would not be
open nowadays. And <affirmative> the government, you have [to] allow us to close our resources. And
now it's eleven years old that has helped thousands of people. And now employs twelve people. And
that's just not fair. This is not just a volunteer experience, this is the livelihood, but also the safe space
for thousands of people. And that's true in many region[s], right? For the San Diego Center, so forth.
<affirmative> While it's good for us to build our own funding streams so that you can stay independent.
You don't want the government to give you everything for everything you do, because then they want to
have a say about how you run your business. But definitely it's important that, especially in California,
where supposedly we have a more progressive leadership to start supporting LGBT center so they can
provide vital care, healthcare services, the others don't provide. [Be]cause when people get sexually
assaulted that are queer, they don't go to the police station. They come to us when they are in a mental
health crisis given by different reasons. They come to us first, when they're in poverty, they come to us
when experiencing certain kind of relationships or a tougher life or because of drugs or substance abuse,
they come to us because they know we're not here to judge. I would say that's why we’re the planned
parenthood of the community <affirmative> [be]cause it's an essential vital resource. The challenges are
that we're not there yet, so that we are left alone to do this work. And now that we have experienced
and seen the highest record of anti-LGBT legislation passing in Congress, a passing or proposed in
different states and in Congress, this conversation, as you know, they hit home, our kids, even though
they're in California. And we know that we're a little bit more protected here. We still have people at
the school district level showing up and addressing and stigmatizing and penalizing our queerness. We
still have people in position of power taking advantage of those narratives and bring back the same old
recycled anti-LGBT religious based narratives. The trauma continues every time we hear that, even
though it's not here geographically speaking. That's the challenges that in a time where communication
goes past left and right, that sometimes even news needs to be vetted. The trauma that the previous
administration has caused, we're still dealing with it. Or the Trump administration for those in the
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record that might watch this years to come, or even now with all the anti-LGBT bills from Florida in
Texas, in Ohio, South Dakota, I mean, these are thousands, hundreds of thousands LGBT youth in
particular trans youth. They are denied their own assistance. And in 2022 I was hoping not to see that
again, instead we are (inaudible) <affirmative> I have hope, I think we have a lot of things going our
favor, including a history of resilience, but it's tough. It's tough for a lot of people. <affirmative>
(Unintelligible) will fight because it's value our own existence, but for a lot of people don't have the
means the energy <affirmative> and we will have to fight for them too. <affirmative> I see a lot of
challenges. They are not just political or cultural, or educational and people really go around spreading a
lot of misinformation around the (unintelligible) kids, supposedly getting surgery at the age of eight,
which is total bullshit <affirmative> when it's actually through the opposite. I think that's the challenge
of nowadays, they still go and the racism, the institutionalized violence that it's part of the North
American culture unfortunately. I think we are an extremely violent culture. <affirmative> I can say that
because coming from another-- when a different kind of violence from the European experience in Italy
in particular, I can say though, that a lot of people that are born and raised here don't even realize the,
the level of competitive individualism that's being created here in North America to a point that now we
have a national pandemic and a worldwide pandemic, and people are even struggling to care for their
own neighbors by protecting their self and other, right. <affirmative> I'm really concerned about those
dynamics of violence and isolation, individualism that our society has brought us to be <affirmative>
That goes along with building an LGBT center.
Teater:
Yeah. You touched on this a little bit earlier, but given the history of policing with the LGBTQ+
community even in San Diego, how do you feel that police and sheriff trainings are received?
Disposti:
I'm gonna say that really, even though I train the Escondido police, the Oceanside police, Carlsbad
Sheriff Department, we do training with FBI. I met amazing people in those spaces. I mean, here and
there <affirmative> I don't wanna generalize. [Be]cause I met folks with coming from, they shouldn't be
there in my opinion. I don't have any trust that the police or any law enforcement will ever, ever
represent the interest of those that are working and living. And those of us that are really struggling for
a better tomorrow, I mean law enforcement is there to preserve the status quo and we don't like the
status quo <affirmative> of course we like democracy and all of that, but I don't have any confidence in
that. You know what I say that to even the officer I train, I tell them I don't dehumanize you because I
think people [that] are there are human beings and making their own decisions. Their own sacrifices
with their family and many of them risk their life, <affirmative> for something that [they’re] living. I'm
not here to dehumanize individuals and call them and isolate them. I have a lot of relationships with
police in the relations to, in a very transparent way, there are not. For instance, we have meetings that
we sit at the table I'm always very clear about: I don't think that policing belongs to queer spaces. I don't
think that policing, and even though I know that police gets, especially LGBT law enforcement feel like
betrayed by the fact that “I'm a police LGBT officer, I [want to] be in this space because I earn it.” But
the problem that they can't forget or separate themselves from the uniform they're wearing and what
has represented for our, it's still percent for our queer and people of color in North American particular.
Any region is different, but-- <affirmative>. What I would say is I believe that training reduce the impact
of policing in our community. I believe that building relationships can build trust. That something
happens. I can go to the police advocate for my people, and I want answers and vice versa, I think will
help the police to understand why there is fear in our community of reporting to the police. Because
when you have been called faggot by a police officer, when nobody is watching, it's your word against
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theirs. So that happens a lot of time <affirmative> on watch. But then there is no way we can prove it.
That happens everywhere all the time. And so personally speaking, and this is, I wouldn't say it's a
statement to my organization, even though I would say it's a common vision. I think collaborations with
police, it's important to, in terms of creating relationships, reducing the impact of policing in our
community. But I think the institution of policing is to be completely reinvented from zero. If we wanted
to be the force that serves the community, it doesn't protect status quo. I know some people might say
radical views, but I met police in different countries, just in North America and they were never on our
side.
Teater:
Yeah. How does local policing here compare to in Italy per se or places in Europe? [Be]cause I'm not too
familiar with their policing practices.
Disposti:
America is anomaly. The whole integration of LGBT experiences into the normalcy of the everyday life
has a good outcome, but also has developed contradictions. The fact that the police needs to show up in
our places and parade with us as a-- in North American seen as a progress, when in Italy it’[s] like, “Okay,
we don't need to hate each other, but my job is policing. It's not to lead the LGBT movements into propolicing know against policing.” Right? It's a different experience with police when I was, even though it
was a different time policing in our LGBT experience in Italy was always a (unintelligible) <affirmative>.
There were never-- nobody will ever think that we need policing in our streets with us. It's a different
comparison. Of course, I don't live in Italy now, even though I go back every year and my family's there
and they're still active. I definitely have a sense of what's going on, but <affirmative>, it's just a different
thing. People look at us and say, why you need the whole military marching with you, why you need the
whole-- and I understand the sense of the fact that LGBT people are everywhere. We [want to] show the
normalcy, that being queer is not anything that's out there, but you know, you can be a police officer
queer, a doctor, and I do like that. I do marry the cost that every price should be open to everyone that
marches. But we got in a point here in Northern America, where now police is telling us how they [want
to] show up. They are in San Diego in particular, they are dictating almost the way they should be
representing themselves when maybe they have only three, four LGBT police officer. And they're using
them as a token to show that the whole force is pro-LGBT. Then they run surveys through the UCSD
[University of California San Diego] or through the service for the Sheriff department that you realize
how much homophobic and transphobic and racist the force still is. To me, they haven't earned that
spot. I'm just gonna be frank. And I told this to chief of police from Oceanside to San Diego to Chula
Vista. I tell that in a very not threatening way, they trust me actually. And they like to talk to me because
I'm truthful. I don't beat the bush around. I'm just gonna tell I'm gonna work with you and everything
else. But I think you were invited at the table and now you think you own the table and that's okay with
me, but the police has an incredible force in America. The lobby of policing, the elected officials get
money from policing <affirmative> San Diego Police Departments extremely powerful, and they impose
their will on, or social organizations and organizing. <affirmative> To ask, for instance, going back in the
merit, I will have been happy to see the police marching maybe with their own t-shirts and shorts, you
know, so that you can tell everybody you are the San Diego Police Department. And so that your
department can be proud of you. And I think that should be alright. But the whole presence of uniform
and weapons in a inclusive parade is meant to be inclusive of everyone. Includes those that are now
super patriotic, or nationalistic, nationalist and so forth. I think it's very not conducive of a good
relationship. It's just a parade. <affirmative> I don't feel it's very-- so I'm sorry if I took you a little bit off,
but this is--
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Teater:
No, you're good. I'm right there with you.
Disposti:
It's such a current happening. Maybe people watching this many years from now, I wonder what they
will think of it, but right now I feel that we're not there. They have to earn their space. And also let's
remember talking about our region when you have a pride parade, you have people coming from all
over the county, you have people coming from LA Mesa, Fallbrook in places where policing, the impact
of policing on the streets is not as kind of transparent as it could be in any other spaces where we earn
that. Right. Like in Hillcrest <affirmative> right. We need to be mindful of the experience of our queer
people of policing in Chula Vista or other places, not just San Diego proper. What you see the police
marching, is not everyone has the same reaction, and you cannot normalize policing by just marching an
parade. You need to work every single day. So that's my-Teater:
Yeah, exactly. So, what is the center's relationship with military members of the community then?
[Be]cause I know they sort of have a kinship, but like they're different, but they're not, but they are.
Disposti:
Well. Because we cannot, I mean, I can tell you my personal stance about <affirmative> worth’s, and
army, and the military. I think we spend too much money into it when this country struggle to support
its own people that live here. Obviously, I'm not sympathetic about any choice of military that's military
related, but when it comes to LGBT experience, I have to say the immediate impact of let's say the
Marines here, the Navy on our immediate community is incomparable with policing. And what I mean,
they're not doing racial profiling here in San Diego. They're not doing-- There is not a direct impact and
<affirmative> for a city like Oceanside, which every family member has someone in the military. I would
say that also understanding the importance of what they give and how they feel it. That is their
dedication, their passion. We need to respect that. We serve a lot of veterans, a lot of military folks, but
many of these folks, LGBT usually we serve them because they struggle through the military services.
They went through <affirmative> health, sexual assault abuses that could never report from their
commanders, <affirmative> transphobia, homophobia, punishments of any kind. We support folks
because these are our people. <affirmative> It's not my place to tell them where they should go. We
meet them where they are. <affirmative> But definitely it's a different experience. I would say I met
amazing folks that actually have been a resource for the center and helping others from the army, from
some of the Marines or the many, many veterans that they are a part of our volunteer team. I'm sure
some of them might not share my views. These are personal view, again, not the center view, but
definitely we did think about building a center in a military community. You could completely subject to
it and be dictated on how to express your sentiment around military actions. You can be who you are
and supporting the queer people around the world. That's my goal as a human rights and civil rights
activist that I-- doesn't believe in any borders, or in any particular nationality, I focus on the help that my
folks need in the entire world. If the America gets in the middle of that, then I will definitely denounce it
but it's beyond the scope of the center. It's more my personal perspective. <affirmative> I think we are
all connected in so many different ways.
Teater
Transcribed By
Sierra Jenkins
10
2022-10-21
�MAX DISPOSTI
TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW,
2022-04-26
<affirmative> I love that. I have a couple more questions. I'm [going to] switch gears a little bit. What
does it mean to you that the resource center has been open for eleven years now?
Disposti:
<laugh> It means a lot. I can't believe it. And I don't look back too many times, when I do I get
emotional. We had our first staff meeting after a while. I mean, in person and in the past six months
alone, we hire[d] six people. So now we're[employees] twelve. <affirmative> And just look around the
table with beautiful queer diversity around us, people with incredible (unintelligible). And I just couldn't
even envision this years ago, I knew it was coming, but now seeing these people around me, each one of
them gives so much, it brings so much to the center. I get really emotional, but I tend to look ahead of
me in terms of, there's so much we [want to] do. Just to give you an idea, this center is really small. Now
we really need that center is four or five times bigger, so we can grow and serve really serve North
County. I don't feel, we are able to say we are the North County LGBT center because we serve
everyone, but truly serving everyone from Escondido to--, it’s just not, at this moment, practically
possible. It takes resources. <affirmative> Not just volunteers and time and resources and money. I can't
imagine a queer person in Escondido, in order to be served they have to come to Oceanside. That alone
is a barrier. We encourage, even though we like to serve the whole region, that there are new
experiences that we can support them and share with them what we did so they can learn it. We're not
in competition with other spaces growing and coming up, but it's not an easy thing to do. I would say I'm
proud of what we did, of what we accomplished, but before I finish with the center experience,
whenever that is, I [want to] see a huge building, thriving with a lot of people in it. And mostly with a lot
of brand-new leaderships that can take that, toward and moving forward. That would make me happy in
so many different ways. So, yeah.
Teater:
Oh, that's so nice. During your time as an activist, and this'll be my final question, during your time as an
activist, what has brought you the most joy?
Disposti:
Oh gosh. I don't think I can single out one.
Teater:
What were some of the experiences?
Disposti:
Opening the center, the grand opening of the center. Definitely. People showed up for that dream.
Really so many, I've been so fortunate to have so many memories, but definitely the opening the center.
The meeting that we had two weeks ago, I told you looking around and see, oh my gosh, these are my
people and the staff, and the center is growing. The people coming forward after a few years of months
that visit us, and we help them and thanking us for truly-- And when I say save the life, I don't mean in
such a-- these were people struggling with their own existence. When I say save the life, I mean, it
physically not--I mean, taught them the way. Right. I don't [want to] be so pretentious of presumptions
or, we are not telling people what to do, but many people really couldn't survive without our support
that has to do with mostly believing in them. When stories like that are coming back to you, you know,
you're on the right path, are doing the right work. So many, I can't pin it down, but mostly had to do
with my community being there for my community and here at the center. So--
Transcribed By
Sierra Jenkins
11
2022-10-21
�MAX DISPOSTI
TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW,
2022-04-26
Teater:
Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing with me. Is there anything else you wanted to mention
before we sign off?
Disposti:
No, it's hard to recollect now, but I'm sorry for getting through the emotions.
Teater:
Oh no, I love it all. It's perfect.
Disposti:
You know, me? Yeah. I don't shy away from that. No, thank you. Thank you for doing this work. That's
what I [want to] say that I know how important it's because we're doing an archive here at the center as
well, and we are doing the same interviews to the people that were here, the key leaders in the
communities, even prior to the opening of the center, it's a very tedious, slow process that takes years
in the making. I appreciate you and your team for even thinking about this. And for creating this record
that one day will be so helpful for people, or maybe not for people to watch. And I wish I had that when
I started the center, looking back to the stories and the voices of those that came before us, because we
always stand on the shoulder. Those that came became before us, even though there was not an LGBT
center, but, you know, yeah. That's what we got. Thank you. Thank you.
Teater:
Thank you. Well, I'm [going to] stop the recording now.
Disposti:
Perfect.
Transcribed By
Sierra Jenkins
12
2022-10-21
�
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Disposti, Max. Interview transcript. April 26, 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
Max Disposti is the founder and Executive Director of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. In this interview, Max discusses his upbringing in Rome, Italy as a queer male and his experience coming to the U.S. and his quest to open the Resource Center. Max Disposti also talks about the parallels in how the LGBTQ+ community is treated in Italy in comparison to America.
Creator
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Max Disposti
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MJ Teater
Sierra Jenkins
Date
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2022-04-26
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LGBTQ+ activism
LGBTQ+ rights
North County LGBT Resource Center
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North County (San Diego County, Calif.)
Rome (Italy)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Max Disposti
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SC027-14
Activists and activism
Community history
History Department internship
Immigrant experience
LGBTQIA+ experience
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Oral Histories
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Oral History
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Jennifer Ho
Interviewee
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Dennis "Dizzy" Doan
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=DoanDennis_HoJennifer_2023-03-06_access.xml
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Vietnamese American identity;tattoo artistry;philanthropy;immigration;community
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6.0 Doan, Dennis "Dizzy". Interview March 6, 2023. SC027-110 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. csusm Vietnamese American identity ; tattoo artistry ; philanthropy ; immigration ; community Dennis "Dizzy" Doan Jennifer Ho moving image DoanDennis_HoJennifer_2023-03-06_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/30cd38c20fdc6dece2f45114880a90f4.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Dennis “Dizzy” Doan, March 6, 2023, by Jennifer Ho. 0 27 Growing up and family life Dennis talks about his childhood growing up in Linda Vista (San Diego), and describes his family, including his brother’s significant role in his upbringing. Saginaw, Michigan ; Saigon ; Danang, Vietnam ; Orange County ; Section 8 housing ; Kung Fu ; Chinese lion dancing ; City Heights ; Mira Mesa ; Pho Hoa ; Pho Hoa Hiep ; Vien Dong ; Thuan Phat ; Rite Aid ; Thrifty ; University of San Diego ; Kearny High Schol ; Scripps Ranch High School ; Montomery Middle School ; Taft Middle School ; Sharp Hospital 0 1031 Mom and brother Dennis talks about the departure of his mother and his brother when he was young, and why they left, as well as the effect their departure had on him. alcoholism ; Washington, D.C. ; hunger ; Costco ; KFC 0 1596 Life lessons and starting out as a tattoo artist In this segment, Dennis shares the lesson he has learned about dependency, and how it has carried him through a successful career. He reflects on early days of learning how to run a business. Dennis shares the story of how he became a tattoo artist, first as a teenager working from his home and then as a business partner before opening his own studio. business venture ; U.S. Marshalls ; Mission Valley Mall ; Michael's ; Louis Vuitton ; Criagslist ; MySpace ; Baby Bash ; Peckerwoods ; Aryan Brotherhood ; Linda Vista ; Kearny Mesa ; Clairemont Mesa Boulevard ; Absolute Tattoo ; Chula Vista ; City Heights, Asian Business Center ; Black Lotus 0 2923 Black Lotus Tattoo & ; Social Club Dennis talks about his third and current shop, Black Lotus. health inspectors 0 3031 Education and career goals In this segment, Dennis discusses his time in grade school and at San Diego State University, and his career objectives at the time. AP English ; Emily Walker ; Asian Studies ; the Philippines 0 3486 Family and community responses Dennis talks about his family’s reaction to him dropping out of school and becoming a tattoo artist. He shares the story of how they found out he had tattoos. He also talks about the response from the Vietnamese community and tattooing community. Vietnamese Boy Scouts ; Vietnamese lion dancing ; Asian tattoo artists 0 3799 Hate is a Virus Dennis talks about “Hate is a Virus,” the project that brought him a windfall of attention during Covid. Covid-19 ; Pennsylvania ; Temple University 0 4195 Vietnam and relationship with Mom Dennis discusses his past trips to Vietnam and the first time his mom saw his tattoos. He talks about his relationship with her and with his family. Taipei ; traditional Vietnamese family 0 4563 Vietnamese identity Dennis talks about whether he identifies as a Vietnamese or American person, and how this is influenced by where someone grows up. He also talks about how people see him. Orange County ; Napa Valley ; San Jose ; Montana ; Filipinos ; Tagalog ; Chinese ; City Heights ; Chinese lion dance ; Tet 0 4767 Ambition and fatherly relationship Dennis talks about the time of day he is most productive. He discusses his motivation and ambition, and how his mother is similar. He also talks about his relationship with his father and how it has evolved through the years. Mira Mesa ; lion dance ; Vietnamese Student Association ; University of California San Diego 0 5583 Asian and Black community relationships Dennis discusses the relationship between the Asian and Black communities. He also talks about his foundation’s service to people of any race, and the competition for funding between Vietnamese-serving non-profits. George Floyd ; non-profit organizations ; City Heights ; Orange County ; San Diego ; Utah 0 6028 The Doan Foundation The Doan Foundation
 ; Dennis talks about the Doan Foundation, including how he got it started, its accomplishments and his vision for its future. 
 ; Thao Ha ; educational scholarships ; Multicultural Fair ; Linda Vista ; Convoy district ; Asian Pacific Islander Coalition ; Cross Street Chicken and Beer ; Nguyet Pham ; Viet Vote ; Oceanside Southern California API Festival ; Ronald McDonald House Charities 0 7006 Changes in the tattoo industry Dennis talks about how the tattoo industry has evolved. He discusses changes in technical skills, opportunity and exposure. He also discusses the role of apprenticeships. tattoo technology ; portfolio ; YouTube ; mentoring ; U.S. Navy 0 7378 Values and mentorship Dennis discusses his values as a mentor, as well as how he stays focused and grounded in all of his ventures. He also talks about how he declines customer ideas for bad tattoos. growth ; problem solving ; tattoo styles ; time management ; customer service 0 7853 Speaking truth and meeting expectations Dennis talks about speaking with openness and truth, including the mental process involved in writing his memoir. He discusses his need to meet the high expectations he has for himself and how that was instilled in him by his brother. philanthropy ; writing ; community 0 8453 Work ethic, culture and the future Dennis talks about his consistent work ethic, the pride he feels in creating his non-profit, and the difficulty of maintaining one’s culture. He talks about his new granddaughter and what he wants for her future. financial education ; language loss ; diversity ; Balboa Park ; AAPI movement ; Black pride 0 9013 Jobs and careers for students Dennis shares his vision of creating a career fair in which students learn about careers that are not normally discussed. He also talks about his brother’s work at the Linda Vista Public Library and reminisces on minimum wage in the mid-1990s. employment and careers ; libraries 0 Oral history Dennis "Dizzy" Doan is a Vietnamese American tattoo artist, writer and philanthropist in San Diego, California. In this interview, he speaks on his family and upbringing, as well as how he got his start in the tattoo industry. Doan also shares his motivation for starting his non-profit organization, The Doan Foundation.
 ; NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:27.000 All right. (Claps.) Today is March 6th, 2023. This is Jennifer Ho, and I’m interviewing Dennis “Dizzy” Đoàn (Dennis “Dizzy” Doan) for the Children of Refugees, the Vietnamese American Oral History Project. Thanks for being with me today, Dennis. How are you doing? (both laugh) All right. Let’s just start. (both laugh) Tell me when and where you were born. 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:31.000 I was born in 1990, in Saginaw, Michigan. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:33.000 And what brought your family to Michigan? 00:00:33.000 --> 00:01:55.000 Um, my uncle at the time, my uncle was just coming over here from Việt Nam (Vietnam). He had worked for Vietnamese Intelligence in the past. He was my dad’s oldest brother. And I guess my family finally made the leap. Because they stayed there during the aftermath of the war, which it was really surprising for me to learn that, because a lot of people left during the war, immediately after. But my grandma was a Vietnam War nurse. So, my dad’s whole family from Đà Nẵng (Da Nang) eventually went to Sài Gòn (Saigon) to pretty much be close to my mom’s family because my mom is from Saigon. So, I guess things were more peaceful there. Because they were pretty much getting hunted up there in Da Nang. My dad’s dad was a police captain for the South, who often went to the North to infiltrate their military. So, he was in prison pretty much most of his life. So, my dad was raised by his stepdad. So, it’s a crazy family timeline because my dad has like four stepdads and he’s the middle child. So, all his siblings after, they’re the only ones who have the same dad, who I grew up thinking was my paternal grandfather. But I found out he wasn’t later. So— 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:57.000 When did you find out? 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:40.000 I—Well, I grew up knowing I had a ông ngoại (ong ngoai, maternal grandfather) and I had two ông nộis (ong noi, paternal grandfathers, Vietlish), but I didn’t know why, you know what I mean? There was ong noi Chan (note: spelling is unknown) , which was—We went to go see him like once in a blue moon. He lived in Orange County. But my regular ong noi, who I refer to as he basically raised me, you know, and that was my dad’s stepdad. But I didn’t know that until later on. And I was like “Okay. So, that’s why I have two grandpas on dad’s side.” Because, you know, my dad was pretty much estranged from his real father. But we still, you know, we still went to go see him and visit and see if he was okay and what not. Because he came over here later, like ’94, ’95 or something. Yeah. 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:46.000 Okay. How did you find out about your two ong nois? 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:47.000 Well, just eavesdropping— (laughs) 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:48.000 Oh really? 00:02:48.000 --> 00:03:13.000 —on the family. No, because my brother—I mean, my brother was there for all that. He’s twelve years older than me. So, he was twelve when they came here to America. So, listening to him talk to my mom, here and there, I finally kind of put two and two together. As I grew up, I understood more of like the dynamic of, you know, marriage and things like that. Divorce, separation. Yeah. 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:20.000 Yeah. Okay. Thank you. So, tell me about your family and the people who raised you. 00:03:20.000 --> 00:04:13.000 My parents—Well, my brother actually was the one who pretty much raised me. Because my parents were always working. When they first came here, my mom worked as a seamstress for a little bit. And then went on to do nails like every other Vietnamese mom. My dad was going to school for a little bit to learn enough English just to get around, and then from there he went on to work as, it was like doing assembly line stuff for a hardware company, which he’s still there today. Yeah. But they were gone usually from eight to eight every day. So, my brother would be back and forth. Sometimes, he would have to take me to work with him. Sometimes, he’d take me to school with him. But, yeah, it was pretty much me and him for most of my life until he left when I was about twelve years old to go to medical school. 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:17.000 Wow. Okay. So, was this in Michigan? Or in San Diego? 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:24.000 No, it was in San Diego. Yeah, we came to San Diego in, I think, like 1991, right after I was born. 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:26.000 Oh. Okay. So, you were just a baby. 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:45.000 Yeah, because my grandma had a sister in here, and then she had family in Orange County as well. So, they decided to come here because the climate was a lot more similar to Vietnam, and, you know, Michigan’s crazy. It has crazy weather. So, yeah. So, that’s why they over here and settled here. 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:48.000 Okay. Have you been to Michigan? 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:49.000 Nope. (chuckles) 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:53.000 Okay. Okay. I was going to ask you how you think you would have been different if you were raised there. 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:59.000 Well, I hear stories. I mean, my brother and my cousin, they were the only minorities at their whole school. 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:00.000 Yeah. 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:01.000 Yeah. (chuckles) 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:02.000 Like the only minorities, period. 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:03.000 Period. Yeah. 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:04.000 Oh, wow! Okay. Was it like— 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:08.000 Everyone else was white. Yeah, and some Blacks, some Black people. But that’s it. 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:11.000 Okay. Was it like a suburb, suburban area? 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:12.000 I don’t know. I don’t know. 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:13.000 Okay. You were a baby, so— 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:15.000 Yeah. Yeah. 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:23.000 —okay. Okay. Cool. So, you were raised primarily by your brother because your parents were at work a lot. 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:25.000 Yes. 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:35.000 Can you tell me more about your childhood? Like what did you do for fun? What did you eat? Who prepared your meals? Who were your friends? Like what comes to mind when you think about your childhood? 00:05:35.000 --> 00:07:14.000 Um, my childhood was, I think it was good. Because I was surrounded by a lot of family, in regards to - I had a lot of cousins that came here from Vietnam. They ended up living with us for a while. And I had cousins from France that would come every summer and hang out. It was very diversified, you know. My friends—I had Mexican friends, Black friends, white friends, whatever. Because when you’re young, you don’t really think about, you know, differentiation in that regard, you know. Um, but pretty much I was either playing outside or I was in the house building something with cardboard boxes, you know. We were poor so we didn’t have too much. I guess at the time I didn’t realize how poor we were. But you don’t really have anything to compare that to. So, we appreciate it regardless, you know. Because they would take me to—After I’d get a shot, my dad would take me to go to like the 99-cent store or something, to get a toy, and I’d be like “Oh, wow!” But it was cool. I feel like back then, I guess society looked out for each other a lot more. Everyone in my apartment complex kind of looked after each other’s kids. You know, when all the kids were playing outside, there was always a parent that was kind of monitoring them. Whenever I didn’t have a key to get into the house, I would just go downstairs to the manager’s office, and they would just come up and open it for me. We could leave our doors unlocked. It was more of a community. Nowadays, everyone’s kind of scared of everything and, you know, parents are overprotective because, you know, everything going on in the world. So, yeah. Things were a lot different, I guess you could say. 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:25.000 Okay. I want to hear more about your apartment complex. Like that’s a really—It sounds like a really tight-knit community. So, how did you—Were they other Vietnamese people? Or— 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:48.000 No. It was everybody. I mean, the only thing everyone had in common was we were all pretty—on Section 8. Pretty much, you know. So, we looked out for each other. Yeah, so a little bit of everybody. People would—I had kids come to my house and I’d go to their house. There was no like judgment, nothing within like our little community, you know. It’s like a big melting pot, pretty much. 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:49.000 That’s nice. 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:56.000 Yeah. So, what else? I was going to talk about something else. (chuckles) 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:59.000 Um, your neighbors, community, looking out for each other. 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:11.000 Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, we used to play outside. I’d play football and whatnot. My brother would only let me play outside for one hour a day. So, I had to, you know, make the best of it. (chuckles) 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:13.000 Why did he only let you play outside for an hour? 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:27.000 Well, he was a little more strict than my parents even were. Because they wanted me to focus on my homework, studying. I didn’t get to watch TV for more than an hour a day. And I didn’t get to play outside for more than one hour a day. Yeah. (laughs) 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:29.000 Wow. Okay. 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:46.000 Yep. It was pretty wild, like the way that he basically molded me. I mean, it’s good. Looking back on it, it helped me develop into who I am discipline-wise. At the time, you know, I hated it. So— 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:47.000 Yeah. Of course. 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:52.000 Yeah. But I’d always try to get around it. You remember how the TVs back then were like glass? 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:53.000 Yeah. 00:08:53.000 --> 00:09:06.000 With a giant tube? So, whenever he was gone, I’d always try to sneak in like some cartoons or something, and he’d always come home and he’d be like, “Oh, you were watching TV, huh?” And I’d be like, “No.” But, you know, there’s like static on there. The whole thing is hot. 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:07.000 It’s warm. Mm-hmm. 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:28.000 But when you’re little, you don’t think about that. So, he knows. I was like, “Man, this guy knows everything.” So, when I played outside too, if I’m sweating or whatever, he’ll know. But yeah. He was just—he wanted me on the right path, I guess you could say. He didn’t want me to get the wrong influences around me. Yeah. 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:35.000 So, it sounds like your brother might have had some of that kind of fear, I guess you could say, that we have today as parents. 00:09:35.000 --> 00:10:12.000 Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s because he had two worlds to compare to each other, like his life in Vietnam versus life here. And he’s seen like the worst in humanity in both places, you know? So, he just wanted to protect me from that. He used to teach Kung Fu, and Chinese Lion Dancing at the library, because he worked there, and he also ran that program for them. And he would never allow any of his students to cuss around me. And they couldn’t talk about like bad things, all those types. So, he’s very, very protective, you know. 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:13.000 Wow! 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:16.000 Yeah. 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:19.000 Um, and what neighborhood did you grow up in, in San Diego? 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:20.000 I grew up in Linda Vista. 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:20.000 In Linda Vista. Okay. 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:45.000 So, at the time, in the early ‘90s, that’s where like all the Vietnamese people were. Pretty much. It was like its own little community. There’s the Vietnamese market there. The first Vietnamese restaurants were there. There and City Heights were kind of blooming at the same time. And it’s only later that it started to work its way up to Mira Mesa. Yeah. 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:58.000 Okay. So, tell me like what are some of the places you would go in Linda Vista? Like what restaurants would you go to or what little shops or like playgrounds? 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:05.000 There’s Phở Hòa (Pho Hoa). We used to go there a lot. I used to go to the thrift store a lot, which is not there anymore. 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:07.000 Is the phở (pho) place there still? 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:10.000 The pho place is still there. My dad’s friend actually owns it now . 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:11.000 Okay. So, a different ownership. 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:24.000 Yeah. Yeah. There’s a place called Phở Hòa Hiểp (Pho Hoa Hiep). That’s still there. Viễn Đông Supermarket (Vien Dong Supermarket), which is now Thuận Phát Supermarket (Thuan Phat Supermarket) is there. Yeah. And then Rite-Aid used to be Thrifty. 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:25.000 Right! 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:34.000 And there’s a bunch of little Vietnamese gift shops there, to buy like cheap clothes and whatnot. But we were at the thrift store a lot. I remember that. 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:36.000 Okay. Why was that? 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:39.000 That’s where we got all the clothes and everything. Yep. 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:40.000 Okay. The thrift store’s not there anymore, you said. 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:54.000 No. It’s not. It’s—I don’t know what it is now, actually. There’s a supermarket in front of it, and then I think it’s like some type of freaking—they’re turning it into some type of plaza or something. It was a big, big thrift store. 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:57.000 Is it in the same shopping center as the Vien Dong was? 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:00.000 No. It’s like kind of across the street. 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:01.000 Okay. 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:08.000 On the side. I know they’re building apartments over there now, too. They’re gentrifying the whole area because it’s close to USD (University of San Diego) . 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:09.000 Okay. 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:15.000 So, you know, prices are skyrocketing. It used to be like the ghetto. Now, there’s homes that are selling for 1.2 mill. 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:22.000 Wow. In Linda Vista. That’s hard to imagine. And does your dad still live there? 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:24.000 No, he lives in Mira Mesa now. 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:25.000 Okay. 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:58.000 Yeah. Well, when I was—Until the age of four, I was growing up in like the really bad side of Linda Vista. But my mom got so tired of it. I remember she and I ended up walking around the whole neighborhood and then we walked like an hour, forty-five minutes to an hour, towards the other direction, like the beginning of Linda Vista on the other end. And she finally found an apartment complex that she thought was okay. And that’s the one that I’m referring to when I talk about the community and everything. 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:02.000 Okay. Is that apartment building still there? 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:03.000 Yeah. It’s still there. It’s called Mesa Vista. 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:05.000 Mesa Vista. 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:06.000 Yeah. 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:09.000 Okay. Do you know if any of your old neighbors still live there? 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:13.000 Mmm, one of them do, that I know of. She’s my client, too, so— 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:14.000 Oh, okay. 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:15.000 Yeah. (chuckles) 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:17.000 Is that how she found you? Or was it a coincidence? 00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:53.000 So, I lived there for a while. I lived there until I was maybe, I think, seventeen, seventeen or eighteen. And I moved. I moved to Mira Mesa, and then I eventually came back again. So, that’s when I met that neighbor. Because my car actually got hit behind her house, or her apartment. So, when my car got hit, she contacted one of my friends that lived in the apartment. And they contacted me. And then that whole thing got resolved. But that’s how I met her. And, you know, it’s been cool since. She’s been my client ever since. 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:55.000 Okay. Good. 00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:57.000 Yeah. Everything kind of connects. It’s weird. 00:13:57.000 --> 00:14:04.000 Yeah. Yeah. I’ve noticed that too. Okay. And where did you go to high school? 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:05.000 Kearny High School. 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:11.000 Okay. Any good memories there? Or any memories at all? Did you do okay? 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:17.000 I wasn’t supposed to go there. My brother was actually really adamant on me going to Scripps. 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:18.000 Scripps? 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:19.000 Ranch. Scripps Ranch. 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:20.000 Oh. Okay. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:37.000 Yeah. Because he went there. He was the first full graduating class of Scripps Ranch. Back then, they used to, you know, bus them from Linda Vista up to there. Because they had like their magnet program and all that. But I don’t know. I just—It wasn’t for me. Freshmen year of—huh? 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:38.000 What wasn’t for you? 00:14:38.000 --> 00:15:24.000 Just like traveling back and forth. You know, yeah. And I was already—I felt like I was distancing myself from my neighborhood when I moved to the other side of Linda Vista, you know? If I was to go to school in a totally different area, then it would be worse. It was kind of a weird dynamic. Because you had the really hood-hood kids on one side and, you know, you had to earn your respect from those kids if you were like anywhere else in the area. You know what I mean? 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.000 So, you were one of those hood-hood kids and then you left. 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:28.000 Yes. Yes. 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:30.000 Okay. So, did people look at you differently after you left? 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:39.000 Yes. So, when I went to middle school, I had to go back to that neighborhood. Yeah. Because it was on the other side, by Vien Dong and stuff. 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:41.000 Okay. What’s the name of that school? 00:15:41.000 --> 00:16:38.000 Montgomery Middle School. Mm-hmm. So, I had to—you know, I would to go to my cousin’s house who lived nearby in the morning. I would walk to school, and then after school, I walked to my cousin’s and then I’d get picked up and go home. Yeah. Because if I was to walk home, it’d take me an hour. Right? So, I’d have to wait for my dad to pick me up. But yeah. It was different. Yeah. I kept going back and forth, mentally, in terms of how, like survival mode versus non-survival mode. Because when I went to school in the nice area, the elementary school there, everything was great. There was a mixture of kids and everything. And then I’d go to this school and there was nothing but gangs and, you know, it’s like all minorities. There’s no balance of anything. And the teachers, they didn’t really care because they were kind of fed up with everything. There was, there were girls that were twelve years old, pregnant. All kinds of stuff. Yeah. So, it was a different shift. 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:44.000 Okay. So, I’m kind of—Was there a middle school in your new area? Is that why you had to go to Montgomery? 00:16:44.000 --> 00:17:06.000 I lived in a weird—like there was weird boundaries. So, I couldn’t—There was a school in Clairemont called Taft that was, you know, zoned differently or something. So, all the people that lived kind of like by Sharp Hospital or something would go to Taft, but my side had to go to Montgomery. 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:11.000 Okay. I was going to say I’m kind of surprised that your mom left that neighborhood only for you to have to come back to school. 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:22.000 Yeah. Well, my mom actually left when I was twelve, too. So, that changed the whole dynamic of everything as well. 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:25.000 Okay. So, your brother left and then she left. 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.000 Yep. They both kind of left at the same time. 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:29.000 Okay. Was that related? 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:44.000 No. Well, yes and no. My dad was an alcoholic for most of my life. So, I guess, well, my brother had to leave because he went to medical school. And then my mom left soon after that because she was just fed up, you know. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:45.000 With? 00:17:45.000 --> 00:19:20.000 With my dad’s alcoholism and, you know, verbally abusiveness and physical. And I guess she thought at the time that I was finally old enough to understand or something? So, you know, yeah, I remember because she usually stays home on Mondays. So, there was one Monday I walked home from school. And she usually cooks me like some random dish on Mondays so when I get home, I could eat it. And she’ll go do her errands or something. But that day I walked in, and I didn’t see anybody. So, I was like “What’s going on?” So, I went to her room, and I didn’t see anyone there. And I went to her closet. And I didn’t see any of her clothes. So, I was like, “Okay, maybe she went to Vietnam and forgot to tell me or something.” So, I walked to—I tried calling her and she wouldn’t pick up. And I walked to her best friend’s house which was in the same apartment complex as well, about like three, four doors down. And she opened the door, and I asked her. I’m like “Oh, where’s my mom?” And she’s like “Oh, I don’t know. I haven’t heard from her.” I’m like “Okay.” So, I went back, and I called my brother. I’m like, “Dude, where’s mom?” And he was like “I don’t know. What happened?” And I was like “I don’t know. No one’s here. And all her stuff is gone.” And he was like “Okay.” So, I was just sitting there, not knowing what was going on. And then, of course, my dad went drinking that night, right? So, when he came back, I was kind of freaking out because, you know, he was going to get mad and then go crazy. But, you know, he was so drunk when he got back, he didn’t even realize she was gone, ‘til the next morning. 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:21.000 Wow. 00:19:21.000 --> 00:20:28.000 Yeah. Yep. So, next morning, I talked to him. He was like “Where’s your mom?” And I’m like “I have no clue.” But she didn’t contact me until maybe three weeks later to tell me that she moved to Washington, D.C., or something—I think it was D.C. at the time, yeah. And then she asked me to come with her or to go over there. And in my mind, that would have been the easier thing to do because, you know, my dad’s great but he has no clue what he’s doing when it comes to being like a single parent, you know. Because I was with my mom most of the time. So, I told her, I’m like “I want to, but I don’t think I can. Because if I do, like dad’s not going to have anything left and then he’s just going to, you know, that’s going to be the end for him, you know what I mean?” So, I’m like “I’ll just take it, and I’ll stay.” So, I stayed and, you know, he was going through his depression for a while. Like at that age, you know, he would go to work, come back, drink. He would just do the same thing every day. He barely ate —He would eat like a little bit of pho every night, some chips or something. And then just drink, you know. And when I’d get home—It came out on paper they weren’t separated or anything. So, you know, we were still paying like full amount of rent or whatnot, with the Section 8. I had to lie to my grandparents and my whole family. I had to tell them that my mom went to go work somewhere else for, temporarily, to get money or something. So, I had to lie to them for like six, seven years. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:21:00.000 Wow! To your ong noi and bà nội (ba noi, paternal grandmother)? 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:06.000 Mm-hmm. So, that’s how long my dad tried to hide it. My grandma wasn’t dumb though. She was still—she was only like seventy at the time. 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.000 And they were nearby? 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:42.000 They were—At the time, they were. They eventually moved back to Orange County. But they knew. Because my mom was close to them, too, you know. And she talked to them eventually. But my dad’s youngest sister was the one who knew like everything because my mom was really close to her. And she was the one housing my brother while he was in medical school, as well. So, you know, he was working. He was doing what he could. You know, he would give me maybe like twenty bucks a week or something. Because he wasn’t—He didn’t cook anymore. He didn’t do anything, you know. So, most of those days were spent me coming home from school and he would be like just “Oh, just find something to eat.” And I’m like “Okay.” (chuckles) 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:45.000 What would you find? 00:21:45.000 --> 00:23:04.000 Nothing. I just—Just whatever. It’s like I used to, you know—Me and my friend would go to like the—I knew that KFC threw out their food at night, at the end of the night. So, I had a friend that worked there, so she would give me some of the food. And I used to steal food from 7-11 all the time. I used to just go to my cousin’s house and act like everything’s cool. I didn’t want to make my dad look bad either. So, I couldn’t, you know, scavenge all their food. But my aunt eventually—My dad’s sister eventually like caught on. And every time I’d go up there to see my brother for the weekend, she would just go to Costco and just buy me a bunch of stuff so I could take it home. And, you know, she was the only one that really like knew what was going on. Because my mom would tell her everything was cool. Every day—I mean, she was calling me pretty often and she would be like “Oh, did you eat today?” And I’d be like “yeah, I did.” Or whatever. But yeah. It was an interesting time. Because I couldn’t—I was trying not to make anyone look bad, you know what I mean? But I was suffering while I was doing it, you know. Because when I would go to my cousin’s house in the morning, I was so hungry, but I couldn’t eat too much or else they would know something’s going on. But yeah, I couldn’t say anything. 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:06.000 That’s a lot for a twelve-year-old to carry. 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:10.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:15.000 So, how did this affect your schooling? Like I bet you were hungry when you went to school. 00:23:15.000 --> 00:24:04.000 Well, I used to take—Well, I had a free lunch. So, I would go there for a lunch, breakfast. Sometimes, I would take the food home with me. And people would give me food if they weren’t eating it or whatever. I’d put it in my backpack and just save it for later, you know. But I don’t think it affected me as much because most of the kids around me were going through similar things. You know what I mean? Like I had a friend—me and him, whenever we could find like fifty cents, we would put it together, get one like of those chicken snacker at KFC. At that time, it was a dollar. So, we’d get that, and we’d split it or something, you know. But yeah, we were going through the same things. So, maybe I didn’t feel like it was as significant because of that. But now, looking back, obviously you’re like “Oh. That was pretty bad.” (chuckles) 00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:06.000 Yeah. It didn’t hit you until later. 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:10.000 Uh-huh. Yeah. Because there was nothing to compare it to. You know what I mean? 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:12.000 Yeah. Yeah. It was just your life. 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:14.000 Yeah. 00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:18.000 So, have you like worked through all of that, like emotionally? 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:19.000 I think so. 00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:20.000 Have you been to therapy? 00:24:20.000 --> 00:25:03.000 It took me a long time to get over the whole not having mom around thing. I was—It was kind of like a self-therapy that I went through. I was with a lot of different women in my life because, you know, I tried to fill that void. But there was, you know, at one point, I was like okay. I need—I had to analyze what was really going on. I had to analyze what I wanted and what I needed and why I needed it, you know? And, yeah, as I grew up and my career bloomed and I had something else to focus on, I was able to reflect more on it and kind of dissect it and kind of finally make peace with it, you know what I mean? 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:04.000 Have you made peace with it? 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:22.000 Yeah. Yeah. That’s why I started writing my book and everything. It’s finally time to like go back and kind of pinpoint those things and analyze it while I’m writing so that, you know, the next person who’s going through the same thing can, you know, take something from it. 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:26.000 Yeah. Is there anybody that’s helping you analyze? 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:27.000 Mmm, no. 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:29.000 Okay. It’s just you with your thoughts. 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:33.000 I have a crazy brain. So— (chuckles) 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:34.000 Okay. Tell me more about that. 00:25:34.000 --> 00:26:22.000 Just I just feel like I met so many different people as a tattoo artist. And I’ve helped them through so much. And I’ve also learned a lot through them and their mistakes as well. So, I’ve lived through everyone else’s mistakes as well as my own. And I’ve gained the knowledge through all of it as well. You know what I mean? So, I don’t know. I have a weird way of reading people, certain scenarios, things. I’m very content with—I don’t know how to explain this. I’m very content with my thoughts now. I’m very content with how things are. And I’m ready to basically proceed to the next thing, you know what I mean? 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:32.000 Yeah. Okay. Wow. That’s quite a journey. So, you were in survival mode before. Do you ever feel like you’re in survival mode now? 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:35.000 I think it’s just—You mean like financially? Or— 00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:36.000 I don’t know. Anything. 00:26:36.000 --> 00:28:12.000 Oh, okay. Well, you know what. I learned at a very early age that I can’t depend on anybody. It’s good and it’s bad, you know. I’m not good at delegating. I’m not good at trusting people to do certain things with other responsibilities. So, I put all that pressure on myself. And, you know, if let’s say we want to start a business venture, I would have to know every micro detail about that business, how to run it from the taxes to the promo to the just every day, daily operations. I want to know everything. So, it’s a lot of pressure because I have to know so much that I just can’t focus on, you know, growing a company or something. So, it definitely takes longer to excel in multiple aspects of something rather than just to focus on specializing in that, you know. But it’s worth it in the end because no one can stop you, you know. If everyone were to leave—Like say you had twenty employees and they all leave, you’ll still be able to run it yourself. Versus you depending on all twenty of those people to do, to delegate something to. Whenever one piece of the puzzle is missing, you’re in panic mode, you know. So, I’ve made it a point not to put myself in that position ever again. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think just recently I figured that out. Maybe, I don’t know, five, six years ago. Yeah. 00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:15.000 And it seems like it has worked well for you. Your business seems to be successful. 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:47.000 Yeah, yeah. I’m content. I’m running things the way I want it. I had a business partner before. But I learned—That was like the last straw, where I learned that I have to do things myself, you know. Because when you don’t know where the money’s going, when you don’t know how to do one thing or another, you know, you get taken advantage of in one way or another. So, you gotta look out for yourself in that aspect. 00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:49.000 Okay. Did you get taken advantage of by your partner? 00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:54.000 Mmm, in a sense. In a sense. But I made up for it, you know what I mean? 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:55.000 What do you mean you made up for it? 00:28:55.000 --> 00:29:58.000 Well, when you’re really young and you don’t know which direction to go —I met him when I was nineteen. So, when you’re really young, you don’t know which direction to go. You kind of look, you know, you look to someone older who has experience to kind of guide you through that, you know. And sometimes you get too dependent on that person. And you end up losing sight of the amount of work one person is doing versus another. And then, if you don’t say anything, it just keeps going and going. But in your mind, you want to be loyal, and you want to be a good business partner. So, you just stay quiet, and you ride it through and hope that things will balance out eventually. But then, there comes a point where you’re working yourself to the ground and you can see that things aren’t balanced, where you gotta cut it off, you know, however painful that may be. In the long run, it’s the better option, you know, for you and for whoever is working for you. 00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:00.000 And has it been better for you after all? 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:23.000 Yeah. Yeah. Things are a lot smoother. I mean it’s always better to have one perspective and one goal, or one person’s goal, rather than multiple people, you know what I mean? It gets confusing for the business and for the people who work for the business, and the customers, you know. 00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:29.000 Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, that singular vision is really important, so you all know exactly where you’re headed. 00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:34.000 And at least if you make a mistake and you fail, you know that it’s your failure. 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:35.000 Mm-hmm. Can’t blame anyone else. 00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:37.000 Yeah. Mm-hmm. 00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:45.000 Mmm. Okay. Um, okay. There’s so, like there’s so much I want to ask you. 00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:47.000 I know. My life is a roller coaster. So, it’s everywhere. 00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:48.000 Yeah. 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:50.000 Yeah. 00:30:50.000 --> 00:31:34.000 I want to hear about your path to your career as a tattoo artist. I know you have a new, newish non-profit venture. And I want to know about that as well. But tell me about how you became a tattoo artist. 00:31:34.000 --> 01:31:05.000 Okay. So, this is going to be a long story. 01:31:05.000 --> 01:31:07.000 Okay. 01:31:07.000 --> 01:32:25.000 Um, so, you know, I grew up in like a semi-ghetto neighborhood. So, there’s a lot of guys with tattoos and whatnot walking around. And my brother’s, some of my brother’s friends have tattoos. He had none though. But, you know, they were still considered very taboo within our community at the time. Because even though we were—the Vietnamese community was in San Diego, it was still nothing but Vietnamese people there. So, they spoke Vietnamese. They had the same values, tradition, and perceptions. So, we were always taught, “Oh, this guy has tattoos. He’s no good. Probably just got out of jail,” or whatever. Things changed as I got older because we were dipping into the 2000s. And I was like, “What the heck. Like I like that. Why can’t I do it, you know?” So, when I was—Actually, when I was twelve years old, again, I decided I was going to try to give myself a tattoo (chuckles). So, I went to Michael’s. I think I went with my mom to Mission Valley Mall. I took myself to Michael’s. And I got, I just got a sewing needle and some green acrylic paint. Because I thought tattoo ink was green at the time. Remember it used to fade green? 01:32:25.000 --> 01:32:26.000 Yeah. Yeah. 01:32:26.000 --> 01:32:42.000 So, I got some dark green acrylic paint. And what else did I get? I think that’s it. I got some other solution to make that paint thinner. But I just used that, and I just carved right into me. 01:32:42.000 --> 01:32:46.000 Into yourself. Wow. What did you carve into yourself, if I may ask? 01:32:46.000 --> 01:34:45.000 Um, it was a really light Louis Vuitton logo for the “LV.” Linda Vista. Like monogram, yeah. So, that was dumb. But I did that. It was so light, though. My parents didn’t even notice it, you know. But then fast forward, when I started hanging out with like gangsters, when I was about fifteen years old, I hung out with this older guy named Đăng (Dang) who’s in Vietnam now. Because he was—The U.S. Marshals were looking for him. So, he left. But he was tattooing out of his house. He used to work at a shop. He had gotten out of prison doing like seven to ten years or something. But I used to hang out at his house a lot and my friends were there all the time. And, you know, of course I want a tattoo. So, I asked him. I wanted my back done and I was like “How much would you charge me to get my back done?” And he said “Seven hundred dollars” which is not a lot. But being fifteen years old, it’s a lot of money, you know. So, I was like, “Aw, man. I can’t afford that.” But all my friends got tattooed by him. So, I was like, “You know, I’ll just wait a little bit.” So, I had a friend from Afghanistan that came when I was in fifth grade. And we were good friends. He lived in the same apartment complex. And he used to be able to make anything, even at the age of ten, eleven. Like he made like fans, all kinds of like all the electrical stuff. Like I always messed around with him. But I asked him how I can make a tattoo machine. So, this was before like YouTube taught this stuff and everything. And he was just like “Oh, we’re just going to make a motor for you.” And I’m like “All right.” So, he made me a motor out of like a RC car, and I put one of those pink erasers from the pencils on there. And we got some guitar string and a sewing needle. And we used the shaft of like a Bic pen. And we had a tattoo machine. 01:34:45.000 --> 01:34:48.000 Wow! It worked? 01:34:48.000 --> 01:34:50.000 Yeah. Yeah, it worked. 01:34:50.000 --> 01:34:52.000 Who did you test it on? 01:34:52.000 --> 01:34:53.000 Uh, myself. 01:34:53.000 --> 01:34:54.000 Oh, wow! Again. 01:34:54.000 --> 01:35:41.000 Yeah. So, I did my thighs. And then, when I decided to dive deep into it, I told my cousin who was already eighteen, I was like “Okay, I need to find like a tattoo kit or something.” You know? I thought at the time, I think eBay was the only one that sold them from China. So, it was going to be like the worst quality. But it came with like a bunch of little inks and stuff. And so, I waited for a while. I got it. And I had no clue what I was doing. There was like a DVD that came with it or something. So, I watched a little bit of that. But I couldn’t really know until I used it. So, my cousin from France was actually visiting me that summer. And he’s like “Just test it on me.” So, I said, “Okay.” So, I did it. I did this Chinese symbol for energy on his chest, which still looks good today, actually. 01:35:41.000 --> 01:35:43.000 Oh, really? That’s cool. 01:35:43.000 --> 01:37:11.000 Yeah. But I knew nothing about needles. You know, there’s different sizes, configurations, whatever. But in my mind, I’m like “Oh. It has to be like drawing with a pen.” So, all I used was the smallest needles (pinches his right thumb and forefinger together to indicate something very tiny). And, you know, I even did like a whole back piece with this tiny, little needle, when—And then, later on, I realized there were bigger needles that I could shade with that are—that’d make it a lot faster. Yeah. But I didn’t know. I had this whole box of like a variety of them that came with the kit. So, I was just trying them all. I didn’t look at the size. I didn’t know anything about sizes. So, I just eyeballed it. (pinches his fingers and looks down, indicating eyeballing something) And looked and did it. Yeah. But I never intended to do it for money. I was doing it for fun. But then when I started to actually need money, I had a friend named Jamie. She was the one who pushed me to start charging people. She was like “Oh, you’re good. You might as well do it.” Because there weren’t that many Asian tattoo artists in the neighborhood, anyway, you know. So, it was illegal, obviously. Because I was underaged too. But I was tattooing, you know, just my friends pretty much. So, I would have her park outside my apartment complex because I didn’t want to park it inside. And I’d have someone go out there, walk them to my apartment where they’d come in, and my whole room I set up like a studio. I literally didn’t have a bed in there. I took it out. And I put a massage table in there. And that’s what I slept on. 01:37:11.000 --> 01:37:12.000 Wow. 01:37:12.000 --> 01:37:13.000 Yeah. 01:37:13.000 --> 01:37:16.000 Oh, my goodness. And this was in the place you were living in with your dad? 01:37:16.000 --> 01:37:22.000 Mm-hmm. Just me and him. He didn’t know I was tattooing for like three years. 01:37:22.000 --> 01:37:23.000 How did you hide it from him? 01:37:23.000 --> 01:37:59.000 Well, he was barely home. So, he was barely home and at the time I was also cutting hair. I was cutting hair and I was fixing cars. I was doing whatever I could because, obviously, being a teenager in the 2000s, you couldn’t do anything with no money, you know. You couldn’t go to movies. You couldn’t, you know, buy clothes. It was like a popularity contest all the time, you know. So, you always felt that constant pressure to get the next best thing or get the nice clothes or else no girls are going to like you. So, I had to do something. You know? Couldn’t get a job, really. 01:37:59.000 --> 01:38:01.000 Yeah. How old were you? 01:38:01.000 --> 01:38:05.000 I was like fifteen. I got arrested a few times. 01:38:05.000 --> 01:38:07.000 For tattooing? 01:38:07.000 --> 01:38:23.000 Um, no. (laughs) I had—I got arrested for like shoplifting once ; suspicion of auto theft once. But I never—Nothing ever came from it. Just my parents got in trouble if anything, you know. Paying fines and stuff. 01:38:23.000 --> 01:38:24.000 Okay. 01:38:24.000 --> 01:39:32.000 Yeah. But yeah. So, after that, I tattooed for a little bit, built some notoriety in my given area. I tattooed mostly Asians and Mexicans because that’s pretty much who I grew up with. I was ready to get rid of those Chinese tattoo machines and go to something better. So, I needed to find something more professional. But you couldn’t buy those unless you were working at a tattoo shop. So, we had to look on Craigslist and all that. And I found somebody that was selling something. And I contacted him to ask if it was still available. And I did this on MySpace, because he linked his MySpace. And it was a tattoo artist. And he told me that he had already sold those, but he was looking at my work and saw I did Asian art. And he needed Asian artists at his tattoo shop. So, I’m like “Okay. Like that’s cool!” And I wanted to learn the right way. I’m like “Are you like taking apprenticeships right now?” And he was like “No. We just need like an artist.” Literally, to draw for them to tattoo. 01:39:32.000 --> 01:39:33.000 Oh! 01:39:33.000 --> 01:41:21.000 I’m like “Ehhh, I don’t know, man.” Because I had gotten an offer, maybe when I was sixteen, to draw for Baby Bash, the singer rapper. He was doing a shoe line and he wanted to do some Asian designs for the shoes. And I rejected that because I was so young. I couldn’t go to Or—It was in Orange County. I couldn’t just go to Orange County and do it, you know? So, I rejected that. And this time, with this guy, I was just like, “Mmm, I mean, we can try it out.” You know what I mean? But I was about to go to San Diego State already. So, the summer before San Diego State, you know, I met up with him and his business partner. And they didn’t even have a shop yet, okay? So, it was kind of sketchy. But they lived over there like towards, you know, La Mesa or something in San Diego. And I went to this guy’s apartment. And they were just in the house kind of setting up everything because they were about to move into the shop. And it wasn’t really like a shop-shop, either. It was like a small like medical studio, in Hillcrest. And it was literally just a small room, like three hundred square feet. And both of these guys were trying to work in there. So, it was two Caucasian guys, okay. The first time I met them, they were telling me, yeah, you know, they need some designs because they do a lot of designs for different clubs or whatever. And I’m like, “What kind of clubs are you talking about?” He was like, “Oh, like motorcycle clubs and stuff.” And I’m like “Okay.” I’m like, “What kind of motorcycle club?” And then he gave me all these references, and everything was a woodpecker. Right? You ever heard of the Pecker Woods? 01:41:21.000 --> 01:41:22.000 No. 01:41:22.000 --> 01:41:23.000 Like the Aryan brotherhood? 01:41:23.000 --> 01:41:24.000 Oh really? 01:41:24.000 --> 01:41:31.000 Yeah. So, anyway. It was like skinhead, Aryan brotherhood, whatever, right? 01:41:31.000 --> 01:41:32.000 I’ve heard of Aryan brotherhood. 01:41:32.000 --> 01:47:06.000 Yeah. So, they were in the Aryan brotherhood when they were inside. They were both locked up for ten years before they came out. That’s how they met, in prison, right? So, they came out and decided to do the shop together. And, you know, I was the only guy there. And I didn’t care. It was like I just needed an opportunity, you know. And they were nice to me. They had no problem with me, I guess, because I’m Asian or something. But, you know, you can hear the racism, them towards other people. And, you know, my time there was interesting because they didn’t let me tattoo yet, because technically I was an artist, you know. They didn’t need me until they went to a convention in Vegas, and they wanted me to, basically, make money for them while they were gone. So, that’s when I was able to start tattooing. They didn’t even have their own furniture or anything. They actually used my stuff. Because I had already—I had everything already set up in my room. So, I just transferred it over, you know. But I treated that place like my own. I painted the walls by myself. I decorated myself, organized it, always cleaned up after them. I treated myself as an apprentice, but I really wasn’t. I was just trying to like, you know, pitch in, pretty much. But yeah. It was interesting because I was covering up a lot of swastikas. I met a lot of ‘em. (chuckles) But they all loved me. So, I don’t know. It was weird. It was just a weird dynamic. And, you know, if you know anything about like the prison life, you know most people in there, it’s very trapped lives in there. Obviously, they all have to stick to their own people. When they’re out here, it’s different. You know what I mean? They can be friends. They can be best friends, and one guy could be black, and one guy could be white. But in there, you can’t. So—Yeah. So, yeah. I did a lot of that. But when these two guys came back from their convention in Vegas, they had some problems, I guess. I already knew there was going to be problems because one guy did all the line work for the tattoos and one guy did all the shading. So, you already know, it takes more to do shading than line work. But they always split it 50/50. So, you already knew that wasn’t going to work out. And then the guy that did the line work, he wasn’t as good as the other guy. But he was more disciplined, right? He was more of a businessman. And the shading guy, he was phenomenal, like his work. Me studying his work is what —my observing of it is what inspired me to tattoo the way I tattoo. You know what I mean? Because he could freehand anything. Like he literally tattooed himself in prison, like his whole arm. And it is perfectly symmetrical. Yeah. It’s pretty crazy. The other guy, though, he was like, he was hit or miss. But he was, you know, a normal dude. More normal. They eventually parted ways. And so, it was just me. And his name is Willis. So, it was just me and Willis left, right? So, it was just me and Willis left and, you know, he was cool. We basically took turns working. I became like, technically, his business partner. But I wasn’t. I mean, I gave 50% of everything I made. I started to get a lot of clients. And then, eventually, he got back on drugs, smoking, all that and kind of went downhill. And I ended up being the only one there, all the time. And I didn’t care. I got to work, you know. So, I kept doing that until he got—I guess, he felt he was spiraling. So, I had met my former business partner at that time. And he used to come hang out which is—It’s ironic, because he was a correctional officer before. Right? And his friend was Willis’s parole officer. So, this whole weird dynamic going on in my world. But anyway, he gave me the idea that we should leave. So, I was like I thought about it and I’m like “Yeah…” But, you know, I’m a loyal person. So, I said, “I don’t know. Let’s give him a chance. Whatever.” And I forgot what happened but there was one night he came in drunk or something, the—Willis came in drunk. And I was like, “You know what. I’m done.” So, we took all our stuff and we just left. Well, all my stuff, and just left. I didn’t care that I didn’t have another shop to go to or anything. I just stopped tattooing for a little bit. And we just kept rolling around, looking for real estate to, you know, to lease. It was super hard because I wanted it to be in my neighborhood in Linda Vista or Kearny Mesa. But no one would allow me to open there. Because it was a “family oriented” (makes quotation gestures with his fingers) neighborhood, right? The only tattoo shop there was on Clairemont (Mesa Blvd.) which is “Absolute Tattoo” and they’ve been there since the ‘80s or something. So, I looked everywhere. I looked at Chula Vista. I looked more north. And then, just no luck. So, we ended up having to go to City Heights, which I did not want to be there because I felt like it didn’t allow me the space to grow. It was more like purely a starter business. I wanted it to be somewhere where it had the potential to last, you know, forever in that location. You know what I mean? The only place that was available in City Heights was a three-story building, the Chinese looking one. You know what I’m talking about? 01:47:06.000 --> 01:47:08.000 Oh, what? The grocery store. 01:47:08.000 --> 01:47:13.000 Mmm, on 47th and El Cajon. AB—it’s like Asian Business Center. 01:47:13.000 --> 01:47:15.000 Oh! Really! 01:47:15.000 --> 01:47:16.000 So, I was on the second floor. 01:47:16.000 --> 01:47:19.000 Oh, I didn’t know your shop was there. Okay. 01:47:19.000 --> 01:48:14.000 So, it was owned by an Italian guy. The building was built by Vietnamese people. Owned by an Italian guy with a Chinese wife, okay? So, he knew that we needed it, obviously, because my business partner at the time had like really bad credit. And I was only like nineteen. I had no credit, you know. So, he knew that we needed the spot. So, he overcharged us, obviously. So, the walls were crooked. The floors, the concrete on the floor was so bad that it was like peeling off. Yeah. It was like soft concrete. It was so weird. But yeah. It was really weird. It was a really weird spot. We had like this giant hallway (indicates a narrow pathway with both hands), I mean long hallway that went super deep in and then you’ve got this little space (gestures space opening wider with his arms). So, that hallway was useless. But that was like two-hundred-square-feet of hallway, you know. But we stayed there for a good, maybe, five years. 01:48:14.000 --> 01:48:16.000 Oh. That’s a long time. 01:48:16.000 --> 01:48:42.000 Yeah. Well, every two years from that point—so, 2010, we opened that shop. And I got like a few apprentices. I ended up getting like five or six artists there. So, after that, I left. And I went to open a private studio across the street for myself. So, I worked there by myself for a little bit. And then, two years after that is when I opened Black Lotus now. 01:48:42.000 --> 01:48:43.000 Okay. Okay. 01:48:43.000 --> 01:49:33.000 Yeah. So, I’ve been there since 2014. So, that’s my third shop, Black Lotus. So, long story short, you know, I’ve had a lot of apprentices. I’ve had a lot of artists work for me. You know, people come and go. Some have gone on to open their own shops. And some just don’t tattoo anymore, you know. A lot of them have had a problem with a business partner and left. And so, we were down to almost nothing. Like literally every—I felt like when I was able to be there with my guys—because I was the one doing the tattoos—they were more in tune with everything. Everyone was happier, all that. But as soon as I left whatever shop that was, everything would just go haywire, you know. My business partner wasn’t a tattoo artist. He was just in management, pretty much. 01:49:33.000 --> 01:49:46.000 Okay. It sounds—There was—I didn’t hear a huge jump from when you went from apprentice, to like, business owner and professional. 01:49:46.000 --> 01:49:49.000 Yeah. It wasn’t long. It was like a year. Maybe a year, yeah. 01:49:49.000 --> 01:49:51.000 Okay. So, was there any— 01:49:51.000 --> 01:49:53.000 But I wasn’t an apprentice, though. That’s the weird thing. 01:49:53.000 --> 01:49:54.000 Right. You were actually an equal. 01:49:54.000 --> 01:50:09.000 If I had really done it, yeah. Because even the health inspector was surprised, and was like, “How old are you?” Because they just wanted to license me so I could start working right away. And I was only like eighteen. She even said I was probably the youngest registered tattoo artist in history. 01:50:09.000 --> 01:50:10.000 Wow! 01:50:10.000 --> 01:50:14.000 Yeah. Because of that, though. Not in a good way, you know what I mean? 01:50:14.000 --> 01:50:15.000 Yeah. 01:50:15.000 --> 01:50:26.000 But I met her again recently because they used our facility to teach their inspectors how to like inspect, pretty much. So, that was cool. 01:50:26.000 --> 01:50:31.000 That is cool! That’s where your attention to detail with every little thing comes. 01:50:31.000 --> 01:50:36.000 Yeah. And I was actually trying to go for pre-med when I was in school too. Yeah. 01:50:36.000 --> 01:50:40.000 Okay. I was going to ask how this interfered with your time at San Diego State. 01:50:40.000 --> 01:52:11.000 Um, it—I don’t know. I was actually really bored at San Diego State, you know. Yeah. I messed around a lot during my sophomore and junior years of high school. I missed a lot of school, like ninety days each year because I was tattooing at home. You know, I needed money more than I needed to go to school. And, of course, no one cared if I go or not because, you know, my dad didn’t really understand the dynamic of everything when it comes to school, how it’s illegal to ditch. Yeah. So, a lot of time, I just stayed home. If it was sunny, I would walk to school. If it wasn’t, I would just stay home. And no one was there to say anything to me about it, you know. So, I had to motivate myself to get my head back in the game when I was a senior. And then, it was frustrating because I had to retake a few classes which—It was really weird because I had—I was in AP English as a senior with a woman named Ms. Walker (Emily Walker) . She was—Everyone said she was so mean, but she was super nice to me. But I was a senior, taking AP English with her while I was taking sophomore English with her as well. So, she was like, “Why are you here?” And I’m like “I don’t know.” So, she just made me a TA. So did all my other teachers, like the Chemistry teacher. Because they knew I knew what I was doing. I just wasn’t there, you know. So, I had to take half the semester over with those classes. But yeah. That was cool. She even gave me a hundred bucks when I graduated. (smiles and nods) 01:52:11.000 --> 01:52:14.000 That’s nice. That’s really sweet. 01:52:14.000 --> 01:52:32.000 So, I ended up graduating with honors from high school. I had a few full-ride offers, like CSU Long Beach, San Diego State. I really wanted to go to UCSD, but they didn’t accept me for some reason, you know. My brother went there. That’s why. 01:52:32.000 --> 01:52:34.000 That’s why you wanted to go? 01:52:34.000 --> 01:54:47.000 Yeah. I think a lot of things I wanted to do was motivated by him at that time in my life. So, they didn’t accept me, and I had a choice between, you know, going to school far away or staying here. And in my mind, though, the way I thought of it was would I rather be mediocre at a like, you know, A-tier school or would I rather stand out at a okay school. (laughs) No offense. But that’s the problem. When I went to San Diego State, I was really bored. I felt like I knew too much already about what I wanted to get into, and the classes I took were just, you know, unnecessary. I took a course on Asian Studies at San Diego State and literally the whole semester was spent on watching movies and videos on kids in the Philippines. And we spent maybe, I don’t know, maybe two weeks on all the other countries. (chuckles) So, I was like, “What the heck.” So, maybe three weeks into that class, I just tattooed one of my classmates and told him to just do all the work for me. And I passed it, right. But I took an art history class. That was kind of weird. We were just studying cave paintings all the time. Yeah. I didn’t know what the real world like application was to that, besides people that are really interested in like cave paintings. But as soon as I was in there for maybe three to four weeks, I was done. I had a Chemistry class where there was something to solve that the teacher wrote on the board and for some reason no one could figure it out. So, at the end of class, I raised my hand, and I was like, “Can you like show us what you’re trying to do?” And they couldn’t figure it out either. So, at that point, I was like I’m done with this class, you know. Because most of them are grad students trying to finish their thing. So, I don’t hold it against them. But that was not good. (chuckles) 01:54:47.000 --> 01:54:48.000 Right. 01:54:48.000 --> 01:54:57.000 Yeah. So, I went there for like a year-and-a-half, two years. And then I just didn’t go back. Yeah. They even had —They even made me pay back money because I got the scholarship money. 01:54:57.000 --> 01:55:03.000 Financial aid, yeah. What was your intention with going to college, like— 01:55:03.000 --> 01:55:05.000 I was trying to be a plastic surgeon. 01:55:05.000 --> 01:55:07.000 Oh, okay. Okay. 01:55:07.000 --> 01:55:09.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Big undertaking (laughs). 01:55:09.000 --> 01:55:11.000 Yeah. So, you were going to go to med school then at some point. 01:55:11.000 --> 01:56:08.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Even at the age of, you know, ten, eleven, I was already trying to read my brother’s like biochem books and all that. Just to feel like a smart kid. But, you know, eventually I caught on. I took some athletic training classes. In high school, I knew about the human anatomy. I knew everything already to prepare me for that, you know. And I was really interested in helping people. I mean, it helps me a lot in my daily tattoo job too. Because I know when someone’s body reacts a certain way, I know exactly what it is. Even my—the people that work in my shop, every time they get sick, they’ll call me. Like “What do I do? What do I take?” So, it’s funny how it all applies to your life now, you know. Mm-hmm. But yeah. I definitely tried to groom myself to get there. 01:56:08.000 --> 01:56:24.000 Okay. Okay. I have so many follow-up questions. I’ll try to stay on topic. So, tell me how your dad reacted when he found out that you were tattooing and how does he feel about it now? Like how has that evolved? 01:56:24.000 --> 01:58:30.000 Well, they didn’t know I dropped out. I mean, I was already past eighteen, so. When I would come home earlier, then he’d be like “Why are you home so early?” you know. I just told him that I was taking a break from school to focus on my job. He—They thought I worked at some graphic design firm or something. Because I do graphic design, too. So, he thought I was just doing that. I had to have him co-sign my first shop, though, because I didn’t have credit, you know. So, it was just like—I know that was big for him because, you know, I was a knucklehead at the time. So, he probably didn’t trust me, thought I was going to mess him up. But I had him put his name on that and I’m like, “Just trust me. I got it, you know.” So, it wasn’t until I opened like my third shop ‘til he took it seriously. Yeah. Because my parents were asking me constantly, “Well, when are you going back to school? When are you going back to school?” I’m like, “I’m not going back, dude. I have like three businesses, you know.” But I knew they were okay with it when they started asking me for stuff, (laughs) like “Can you pay for this?” or, you know, “Buy me this.” My brother was kind of —He knew I went through a lot trying to like catch up with him or—it’s because my parents were kind of there for him throughout his whole like childhood. And when he went to medical school, everyone supported him. My aunt, you know, took care of him and everything. But when it came time for me, like no one was there for me, you know? So, we had a different struggle. Although he lived like a really bad life in Vietnam with my parents, and then, you know, came over here to become a success, I had like a different set of problems I dealt with, you know, even being born in America, you know. You can’t compare the two because they’re so dramatically different. But he knew. So, he told me, just do whatever makes me happy. He was like, “As long as you’re a good person, that’s all that matters.” Because he knew I had the pressure on me to do, you know, be a doctor or lawyer or whatever it may have been. 01:58:30.000 --> 01:58:31.000 Yeah. Okay. 01:58:31.000 --> 01:58:35.000 And he found out I was tattooing when I was like sixteen, so— 01:58:35.000 --> 01:58:37.000 How did he find out? 01:58:37.000 --> 01:59:31.000 Um, I slept at his house, and I made the mistake of wearing a T-shirt. And I already had—Keep in mind, at the age of fifteen, I already had both my legs tattooed, like most of my body, and then both half-sleeves done. (laughs) So, I was sleeping with a short-sleeved shirt, and I had like my arm up or something. And then he—we went to go eat the next day and he was like “Man, I could have swore I saw a tattoo on your arm or something.” And I’m like “No. What are you talking about?” And he lifted up, I think, the wrong arm because I didn’t have one on the other side. And he was like “What the heck?” So, then later on, he does it again while I’m in the car with him, and he’s like “I know I saw a tattoo.” And then he lifted up the right arm and he’s like “When the heck did you get that?” And I’m like “Uh, I started tattooing on the side to make money and stuff.” And he’s like “Okay.” And he was just telling me like “Be careful.” Whatever. And that’s it. Kind of just end of story, you know. 01:59:31.000 --> 01:59:32.000 Okay. 01:59:32.000 --> 01:59:34.000 Yeah. 01:59:34.000 --> 01:59:44.000 How has the Vietnamese community reacted? And Vietnamese American? I assume it’s somewhat different. 01:59:44.000 --> 02:01:22.000 It’s been interesting because I’m really—I’m very proper, you know. I’m very respectful to the elders. I’ve been involved with the community for so long because I was—I helped like the Vietnamese Boy Scouts out most of my life. I was in like Vietnamese Lion dancing. I’ve attended, you know, all the festivals, restaurant grand openings. And I have a lot of family, you know. So, I guess my family doesn’t, never took offense to me tattooing or anything. They always, eventually, like made a joke out of it. Like “Oh, tattoo a fly on me,” or something, you know. But they never looked down on it or anything. My parents have a lot of siblings. They have ten each. So, there’s a lot of family. They all know what I do and what I’m doing with it. So, I think they’re okay with that. Even my family that came here recently from Vietnam, they’re, you know, pretty accepting of everything. But I don’t know. I guess society as a whole, when you’re talking about Vietnamese people, they’re still judgmental, obviously. I’ve been to events where, you know, I could be donating like a few thousand dollars, and I’ll sit down at the table with people I don’t know, and they won’t say a word to me. They won’t talk to me or anything until after they realize who I am or what I’ve done. And then all of a sudden, it’s “Oh. Can I take a picture with you?” or “Can you help me with this?” but yeah. Unfortunately, that’s the way it is but it’s up to us to change it, you know. 02:01:22.000 --> 02:01:27.000 Okay. And what about the tattooing community? 02:01:27.000 --> 02:01:28.000 Tattooing community? 02:01:28.000 --> 02:01:29.000 Yeah. 02:01:29.000 --> 02:02:27.000 Kind of the same thing, because I didn’t have a formal apprenticeship. I taught myself how to tattoo. At the time, when I was starting out, it was still very—Tattooing was very—It’s a tight-knit community, I guess you could say. The only way you learn is if you learn from like this guy that passed it down to that guy. It was—There wasn’t public information out about it because they didn’t want it to get bigger. And there weren’t that many clients at the time either. Because there was no shows out or anything. So, you take what you can get. And they didn’t want competition, you know. I got in at the right time when it was blowing up. So, I kind of like took all the customers from San Diego, especially the Asian customers. So, you know, I got a lot of hate, even with the Asian tattoo artists in San Diego. There’s only like two or three of them. 02:02:27.000 --> 02:02:31.000 Two or three Asian tattoo artists? Asian or Vietnamese? 02:02:31.000 --> 02:02:32.000 At the time. Asian. 02:02:32.000 --> 02:02:33.000 Oh, wow! 02:02:33.000 --> 02:03:19.000 There weren’t that many. But, obviously, I was impeding on their business, too. And I was young, and I was hungry. So, they were saying “Who the heck is this kid?” That guy I used to hang out with, too, when I was fifteen, he reached out to me when I was about seventeen years old and asked me to work for him. And I said no. Because I didn’t want to tattoo the same way and kind of repeat the same things. So, that’s why I decided that. He was like “Oh, why do you want to work for white dudes, you know.” (shrugs his shoulders) I just wanted to do something different, you know. I wanted to run things different. I wanted people to look at me different. I didn’t want to just be another Asian tattoo artist in San Diego. I wanted to be more and do more, you know. 02:03:19.000 --> 02:03:38.000 Mm-hmm. Okay. When did you—I think—So, I was looking back, and I was trying to remember when I first heard about you. And it was when you did the art with the girl and the nón lá (non la, Vietnamese conical leaf hat) thing. 02:03:38.000 --> 02:03:43.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I call it the Model Minority. But a lot of people refer to it as “Hate is a Virus.” 02:03:43.000 --> 02:03:48.000 Yes! Hate is a Vi—Okay. Yes. Okay. So, how—can you tell me how that got started as a project? 02:03:48.000 --> 02:06:52.000 Mmm, that was an accident. Actually. Mm-hmm. So, during Covid, I didn’t think it would last as long as it did, the lockdowns. So, you know, they closed —They made me close my shop down for, I think it was seven months or something. It was pretty crazy, which is weird because they left the nail shops open, but not me. (laughs) I was even trying to be innovative and industrious. And I was going to convert the whole outside of my shop into like an outdoor setting, like with tents, canopy, cover, air conditioning vent, everything. But they were like, “No.” (chuckles) But, so we had to stay home. SoI didn’t know what I was doing with myself, and I heard about, you know, all the xenophobia stuff. So, I sat down. I was looking at Instagram and I saw an organization called “Hate is a Virus.” So, I wanted to help them in a way, help kind of amplify the message. And I just sat down and started drawing something. And I don’t usually finish my drawings either because I’m always just prepping for tattoos, you know. But I finally had time to just do whatever I wanted. So, I drawed a little sketch of it and I posted it, and everyone reacted pretty crazy. So, I decided to finish it. And I put it out there, and it kind of like blew up. And I wasn’t planning or intending to do anything with it, like make clothing or any of that. But one of my friends, who I actually just met with before this, he’s the one that—him and my wife were like “Oh, you need to make T-shirts out of this or something.” I’m like “Ehh, I don’t know. I don’t have the money right now,” because my shop was—We were going to be closed for a long time. So, I needed to use my own savings to pay for this. So, I was like, “I don’t know. I don’t have the money right now. It’s just going to be, it’s going to be a waste, you know. You don’t know if people are going to buy it.” And then my friend, he’s a pretty successful businessman. He trapped me and he ordered fifteen hundred shirts, right. Mm hmm. So, he ordered fifteen hundred shirts and he told me, he was just like “Oh, just pay me later.” And I was like “Okay.” That’s like $10,000, right. So, I was like “Okay, now I gotta sell this,” right? I’m pretty persistent and I’m pretty—when I put my mind to something, I’ll do it. I’ll be able to do it. So, I just started cranking out, you know. I had to create the website right away. Get all the analytics in there right away. And just start cranking ‘em out. So, I got all the pre-orders as soon as that happened. It was like a few thousand. I had at least like a thousand-some sales that first run. You know, we were selling them for 30 bucks each and I was donating 10% to Hate is a Virus. So, I mean, that’s a lot of money, right? (chuckles) 02:06:52.000 --> 02:06:54.000 Yeah. It is. 02:06:54.000 --> 02:08:11.000 So, after that happened, things kind of died down. And I was like “whatever,” you know. I still had like a few shirts left, maybe like three hundred shirts left or something. And I was able to open up the shop again and, you know, things were normal. And then the next year, it blew up again. But I didn’t do anything. It just—Somebody had shared it again. And then that is the year that it blew up like all around the world. So, yeah, one day I just woke up. I’m like “What the heck is going on? Like there’s so many people on my page right now.” So, it reached like Vietnamese celebrities. It reached like, you know, even my client came in one day and she was like “Oh my god, my surgeon just posted up your freaking thing.” I was like “What the heck.” It was some random Indian guy I don’t know, you know. So, there was—Facebook posted it. Instagram posted it. PBS. It was used in protests. It was used on covers of magazines. It was used for—I think it’s in some building at the—What’s that university in Pennsylvania? 02:08:11.000 --> 02:08:13.000 Penn State? 02:08:13.000 --> 02:08:14.000 Temple? Is it Temple? 02:08:14.000 --> 02:08:15.000 Oh, Temp—There’s—Yeah. There is Temple University. 02:08:15.000 --> 02:08:42.000 Yeah, I think it was Temple University. Yeah. It was used in a lot of things. And I was like “What the heck is going on?” you know. And to me, I mean, everything I draw I’m kind of like “Okay, whatever,” you know? I don’t really like admire it the same way that people can. Because just like when I cook, I don’t really like eating my cooking. Because I’m so tired of looking at it, you know. But yeah. It meant a lot to a lot of people. And I’m glad. 02:08:42.000 --> 02:08:44.000 Okay. 02:08:44.000 --> 02:09:55.000 Yeah. So, it opened, definitely opened the doors for me in the sense where there are different people who approach me now to have interviews and everything than just tattoo enthusiasts. You know what I mean? I feel like if I was just a tattoo artist and people only knew me with that, as that person with that title, in your mind you tend to already assume I look a certain way, do certain things, live a certain way. But this kind of changed everything for people. You know what I mean? I did news interviews with like Vietnamese news channels, you know, which is—It must have been weird for her viewers because they’ve probably never seen anybody like me on there. But, you know, it definitely shifts perspectives in a good way. Yeah. Very interesting though. My parents were scared I was going to say something wrong. They were like “Don’t talk politics.” I’m like— (shrugs his shoulders). She did try to trap me into talking about politics. But I didn’t do it. 02:09:55.000 --> 02:10:08.000 You didn’t fall for it. Okay, yeah. Okay. So, speaking of Vietnam, how often do you go back? 02:10:08.000 --> 02:10:12.000 Mmm, I’ve been there twice. But I haven’t been there since ’09. 02:10:12.000 --> 02:10:13.000 Oh. It’s been a while. 02:10:13.000 --> 02:11:12.000 Mm-hmm. The first time I went there was scary because I went there in ’05 the first time. And that was my first time ever on an airplane. I was supposed to go with my brother, but we didn’t make the decision until last minute. He bought me a ticket, you know. So, he was able to get me—He was going with his soccer team because he used to play for the Vietnamese league that played with like the Vietnamese soccer team. So, he got me a flight at the same time, but it wasn’t the same flight. And I flew by myself. My first time ever on an airplane. I was flying to Vietnam, right? So, I was like “Okay. I don’t know what I’m doing but—” You know, I flew to Taipei. I didn’t speak their language. I was just kind of like wandering around, trying to look for whatever. Taipei to Vietnam and then I go through customs and they kind of take me back because I had—At the time, I had the map of Vietnam on my arm tattooed with three stripes. 02:11:12.000 --> 02:11:13.000 Oh. 02:11:13.000 --> 02:11:25.000 Yeah, and it was hot, so I was wearing a tank top. So, they kind of, you know, grilled me for that. But then my brother got there, and his friend knew the customs agent, so they let me go. But yeah. That was interesting. 02:11:25.000 --> 02:11:30.000 How did you feel like throughout this whole flight experience? Like what was going through your mind? 02:11:30.000 --> 02:11:42.000 I don’t remember. I kind of just like shut it off. I was listening to the same music. There wasn’t that much to listen to at the time. I don’t think they had a lot of movies on there at the time either. 02:11:42.000 --> 02:11:43.000 In ’05. No, I don’t think so. 02:11:43.000 --> 02:11:56.000 Yeah. So, you know, I was just trying to mind my own business and, you know, do that. I was just more scared if I was going to survive the flight or not. (laughs) Because I’d never been on a plane. So— 02:11:56.000 --> 02:11:59.000 Yeah. That’s a really long flight for a first time. 02:11:59.000 --> 02:12:05.000 Yep. Yep. I was adventurous back then, so— 02:12:05.000 --> 02:12:06.000 Wait. Say that again? 02:12:06.000 --> 02:12:08.000 I said I was adventurous back then, though, so— 02:12:08.000 --> 02:12:09.000 Oh, adventurous. 02:12:09.000 --> 02:12:11.000 I was more curious than anything. 02:12:11.000 --> 02:12:15.000 Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. And how did the second time go? 02:12:15.000 --> 02:13:15.000 The second time was chill, easy. I flew—The second time there, I met my mom there. My mom had flown over there too. So, me and my brother and my mom. That’s when she found out about all my tattoos. Mm-hmm. Because we went to a spa. I didn’t know it was like a co-ed thing. So, me and my brother, we checked in in one area and my sister-in-law and my mom was in another. So, I’m like “Okay, whatever.” So, I told my brother, I’m like “Dude, Mom is going to see all my tattoos.” And he’s like “No she’s not.” And I’m like “All right.” (shrugs his shoulders) I was wearing like—you know, they have white shorts over there. So, at the end, after we go through everything, we walked to our room for the massage, and I see my mom. I’m like “Oh, shit.” So, she sees me, and she doesn’t say a word to me. And I was like “That’s it.” She like didn’t mention it. She already knew I was doing tattoos. But she didn’t know how many I had ; you know. But yeah. 02:13:15.000 --> 02:13:16.000 Did she follow up on it later? 02:13:16.000 --> 02:13:17.000 No. 02:13:17.000 --> 02:13:18.000 She never? 02:13:18.000 --> 02:13:30.000 No. She cried one time when she was talking to somebody about it in front of me, though, like “Oh, I can’t believe he got his neck tattooed.” And all that. She’s like “Let me just pay for you to get it lasered off.” I’m like “No. It’s okay.” Because in her mind I think she thinks that if she was here, I wouldn’t have become this person or whatever it may be, you know. That I would have taken a different path if she was around. But I don’t regret anything that happened to me in my life, you know. I think everything happens for a reason and she needed to go in order for me to be this. Like how I am now. You know what I mean? If they had tried to shelter me my whole life, it would have—I don’t know. Maybe I would be in school right now, unhappy with what I was doing. Right? Because if I had gone to another school in another state or something, I probably would have stayed, right, and finished. But, then what? I don’t know. But I’m glad that I did try to make it work, before I gave up on it. Rather than now saying “Oh, what if this happened,” right? 02:13:30.000 --> 02:14:40.000 Yeah. Yeah. You don’t want those kinds of regrets. Why not at least try it? Have you ever talked to your mom about her leaving? 02:14:40.000 --> 02:15:22.000 No. She doesn’t—She—My family doesn’t talk about anything. We don’t even give each other hugs. It’s very like a super traditional Vietnamese family. It’s just barely—I mean, my dad like hugs my wife and stuff and the kids and all that. But I’m—I don’t know. I guess we’re cold in that sense. It’s just the way it is, you know. It’s just more of the women in the family that do the hugging and kissing and stuff. Which is funny because my dad’s — all his siblings, his sisters, they’re like so loving. And they’re so like nurturing and everything. And my mom’s family is super like that too. They’re very tight knit, you know. 02:15:22.000 --> 02:15:25.000 Okay. What’s your relationship with your family like now? 02:15:25.000 --> 02:15:58.000 Um, it’s good. I mean I barely—I don’t really see my cousins too much anymore even though they’re like right down the street. Because I’m just so busy, you know. I think they get offended sometimes that I am that busy. But I know that what I’m doing is, you know, to set myself up for more time later. So, it’s okay. You know, they’ll understand, eventually. But I’m still close to all my cousins. Like they can contact me anytime, even my cousins from France, Australia. I speak to them on a regular basis. Yeah. 02:15:58.000 --> 02:16:00.000 That’s nice. Okay. 02:16:00.000 --> 02:16:03.000 There’s a lot. They’re all over the world, so— 02:16:03.000 --> 02:16:17.000 Mm-hmm. Cool. (pause) I want to go back to the Vietnamese American community. 02:16:17.000 --> 02:16:18.000 Okay. 02:16:18.000 --> 02:16:23.000 Do you (sighs)… Gosh… 02:16:23.000 --> 02:16:25.000 (chuckles) Trying to phrase it. 02:16:25.000 --> 02:16:34.000 Yeah! There’s just so much. And I feel like this is a really important part of this project, is to talk about identity and our relationship to the community. 02:16:34.000 --> 02:16:43.000 I guess what you want to ask—the question that I think a lot about too—is whether you identify as American or Vietnamese? Right? 02:16:43.000 --> 02:16:44.000 Mmm. Tell me. 02:16:44.000 --> 02:17:50.000 Um, I consider myself Vietnamese, honestly. I don’t know about the American. I mean, I should be the most American Vietnamese American ever, being born in Michigan. But I guess it depends. Because I grew up in the United States, but I grew up around immigrants. So, are you truly a Vietnamese American when you’re surrounded by nothing but your own people? Just like in Orange County, you can survive being a Vietnamese person without knowing any English in Orange County. So, you know, I mean the rules of the land apply, but do the social and, you know, the cultural rules apply? No. So, it’s a weird—I guess it just depends. Because a Vietnamese kid in, I don’t know, Napa Valley or something is going to be more Vietnamese American than, say, me, you know. A Vietnamese person in San Jose versus, I don’t know, freaking Montana or something is going to be different as well. 02:17:50.000 --> 02:17:51.000 Yeah. 02:17:51.000 --> 02:17:53.000 Yeah. 02:17:53.000 --> 02:17:58.000 How do you think the Vietnamese community sees you, like Vietnamese Vietnamese? 02:17:58.000 --> 02:18:02.000 I think they see me as a reflection of themselves. 02:18:02.000 --> 02:18:03.000 Okay. Tell me more. 02:18:03.000 --> 02:19:02.000 Like I feel like—Okay. So, here’s an example. People think I’m Filipino, often, right? So, I always see like, you know, older Filipino women and, you know, working or something. And they ask me, “Oh, are you Filipino?” Or they’ll speak to me in Tagalog. I’m like “No. I’m not.” And then, you know, Chinese people might speak to me in Chinese and think I’m Chinese. And I’m like “No. I’m not.” And Vietnamese people the same thing. But it’s like, I feel like the true Vietnamese people see me as one of them and the Vietnamese—I’m a chameleon. So, it’s hard. Because I can fit in with both. Because when I was growing up, I grew up with, you know, the City Heights Vietnamese guys who like some of them just came over here. Some of them have only been here for like five, six years. But I also grew up with some guys from Mira Mesa that have been, their families have been here for a while. So, they’re more like Americanized. So, I don’t know. That’s kind of a hard one. 02:19:02.000 --> 02:19:03.000 Yeah. 02:19:03.000 --> 02:19:27.000 I guess I can adjust and adapt to both, you know. Because I’m super Vietnamese in the sense where I’m participating in like, you know, the Boys Scouts stuff, the Chinese Lion Dance during Tết (Tet, Vietnamese new year) stuff. And I’m always involved with like the Tet Festival and everything. But I’m Vietnamese American as a scholar, you know. 02:19:27.000 --> 02:19:44.000 When do you feel the most like yourself? When do you feel the most at home and comfortable? Like when are you, you? Like, it might be place, certain people, setting, after a certain experience. 02:19:44.000 --> 02:19:49.000 I don’t know. I guess I feel most like myself at like 1, 2 a.m. It doesn’t matter where it’s at. 02:19:49.000 --> 02:19:51.000 Okay. Why 1 or 2 a.m.? 02:19:51.000 --> 02:20:42.000 I don’t know. That’s always been my time, where I am most productive and at my peak. I don’t understand why. Ever since I was little, it’s been like that. Yeah. Like just last night, I was writing this—I have an article coming out and I finished that like at 2 in the morning. But I just had that last piece, and I’ve been waiting like two or three days to kind of get my mind in the space to write it. And I just knocked it out at 1 a.m., 2 a.m. (chuckles) Even when I tattooed, when I was tattooing at home, you know, I was trying to hide it. So, I had people come at, you know, midnight or 1 a.m. to tattoo them. Yeah. Because I couldn’t do it in the daytime all the time, because I had school. So, that’s always been like my time. My worst and my best. 02:20:42.000 --> 02:20:43.000 Why worst? 02:20:43.000 --> 02:21:38.000 Um, because, you know, late at night is when you’re alone and you have to deal with your own thoughts. And, you know, think about the past, present, future. That’s when all the pressure comes. And you’re still awake while everybody else is, you know, at peace. Yeah. But I think that that’s helped me grow more than anything. My ability to—A lot of people look at, um—Like I answered this question last night in the article, speaking about what do I do when I get overwhelmed. And those moments are usually when I get the most overwhelmed, I see them more as challenges rather than like problems, you know, like personal problems. Because I feel like if I can go over those humps, it will prepare me for the next one and the next one. It kind of callouses you and prepares you for anything the world brings at you, you know. 02:21:38.000 --> 02:21:39.000 Okay. 02:21:39.000 --> 02:21:41.000 Yeah. 02:21:41.000 --> 02:21:58.000 It sounds to me like you are very much identified with your work, and I don’t necessarily mean your career. But like you like to produce. You’re an action-oriented person. Would you say that’s true? 02:21:58.000 --> 02:22:44.000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, anything—No one can stop me when I have my head or my heart set on doing something. I’ll tell you that. And no one can tell me no. If I know what I’m going to do, I will. And it doesn’t matter how I do it. But I always get there. You know? And I can guarantee that I never put my foot through the door unless I know it’s going to happen. It’s going to work. You know. Because I’m a very careful person. So, I’m not going to waste my time. Or I’m not going to waste any time, any years, or any people’s time unless it’s something that I’m not 110% invested in, or understands, you know. 02:22:44.000 --> 02:22:55.000 Uh-huh. Okay. That’s—I respect that. That’s like my mom, honestly. There’s nothing she cannot do. And if she decides she’s going to do it, then it’s happening. Like nothing will stop her. 02:22:55.000 --> 02:22:57.000 It’s a Vietnamese work ethic. That’s my mom, too, though. 02:22:57.000 --> 02:22:58.000 Yeah? 02:22:58.000 --> 02:26:13.000 Yeah. She’ll work ‘til—I mean she’s still doing nails now. She’s like 67 years old. And she—I remember I used to have to walk her home like when I was six, seven years old. Because, well, she worked maybe like five, six blocks away. So, me and my brother sometimes would have to go get her and walk her home. Because my dad—She didn’t drive. And my dad was like drinking somewhere, I don’t know. So, she would call us. We’d have to go get her, walk her home and all that. And when my brother left, I would have to do it myself. I would have to like skip Halloweens and everything just to do that for her, too. And, you know, she did that every day. She walked to work every day, walked home. And on Fridays, she would clean the house by herself. Clean the bathroom. I would help her. And there was this one night I’ll never forget. I think I was like eight years old. She was sitting on the bed after she got done cleaning the mirrors, and she was like “Oh, I’m so like dizzy.” And I was like “What the heck?” And I thought she was messing around, and she was just laying there on the bed. And I was like “What’s going on?” And I thought she was kidding or faking it. So, I started jumping on the—I was a kid, and I was jumping the bed, and I was like “Wake up, mom” or whatever. And she wouldn’t wake up. And I don’t know what got into me but like automatically I just had that instinct to help her. So, I went to go get some eucalyptus oil or something and I put it in her nose, and some on her stomach. And all of a sudden, she woke up. So, like she was so tired that she like passed out, you know what I mean. And that’s not the first time. She got sick so many times. And she got the flu really bad once when I was about ten years old. And she needed to go to the hospital. And I was scared. I was so young. So, she told me to call—Or she told me to call my brother. At the time, he just had a pager, and he was in the mountains. So, he couldn’t get it. So, I was like “What do I do?” So, I had to call 9-1-1, right? So, I called 9-1-1 and I told them everything. I talked to them for like ten, fifteen minutes. And then my dad came home. And he was drunk, of course. So, he was mad that it was going to be inconvenient for him to go to the hospital or pay for the ambulance or whatever it may have been. So, yeah. So, I was just in the car with him, going there. And he was more worried about him getting a DUI than anything. But yeah. She was pretty bad. She was really sick. She came home, I think, a day after that and it got worse again. So, my brother luckily was at home by the time that he took her. But that was kind of when my brother got fed up with my dad and his stuff. And he wrote him this long letter. I remember seeing it. It was in Vietnamese, basically telling him if he doesn’t get his act together, then my brother is going to take me away. You know what I mean? So, I guess he took that seriously because, you know, it was better for a little bit. But then it got worse again. And that’s when me and my dad started bumping heads, like crazy. 02:26:13.000 --> 02:26:15.000 And how old were you-ish? 02:26:15.000 --> 02:26:53.000 Like eleven, twelve. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I fought my dad when I was twelve. Yeah. And he was so out of it, he didn’t—he doesn’t even remember any of it. Except for like the next day he kind of like with what my mom told him or something. But I remember that night, me and my mom went to my aunt’s house, and she was just talking to her about how she thinks I was like so fed up and I couldn’t take any more and just went crazy, you know, ‘cause I was sick that day and he wasn’t there, you know. So, yeah. That’s when everything changed between me and my dad after that day. 02:26:53.000 --> 02:26:55.000 What do you mean it changed? 02:26:55.000 --> 02:27:46.000 He just looked at me different. I looked at him different, you know. I saw him as more of an enemy than anything, and he didn’t see me as his son anymore. So, I don’t know. Even when I got arrested that one time, he was just like “Oh, just let him, you know, go to jail.” And all that. But, even after my mom left—that’s why I said when my mom did leave, it was very—it took a lot for me to stay because of all that history, you know, which sucks because when I was younger, I remember he was great. He was the one at home taking care of me everyday and—Because that’s when not a lot of his friends were over here yet, you know. My uncles weren’t here yet. And when he got back on that cycle of nhậu (nhau, drinking and socializing) all the time, it just, it got bad. 02:27:46.000 --> 02:27:47.000 Did it ever get better? 02:27:47.000 --> 02:27:48.000 Yeah. It’s better now. 02:27:48.000 --> 02:27:49.000 Okay. 02:27:49.000 --> 02:28:39.000 I mean, honestly, that fight between me and my dad was the best and the worst thing that could happen, you know. Because he finally—I feel bad about it to this day, and I feel guilty because, you know, the way we see our parents is like you’re supposed to respect them and all of the above. But, you know, there comes a point where you just have to cut it. So, yeah, I think it was—it gave him a reality check that, you know, he’s not invincible and he’s not going to keep doing the same thing over and over without nothing happening. So, me getting in that fight with him, my mom leaving, everything at the same time kind of, it just piled up, you know. He started to drink a lot less. And, you know, when I say something he like listens to me now. (laughs) 02:28:39.000 --> 02:28:41.000 Yeah. That’s something. 02:28:41.000 --> 02:29:26.000 Because I’m rational. At the end of the day, you know, like my parents have always told me that even though my brother’s like a doctor and everything, they always tell me like I have the most potential, because I kind of, I raised myself, you know. So, whenever they need something, they ask me. Whenever they need something to get done, they ask me. My dad was diagnosed with cancer two or three years ago, and I kind of guided him through that whole thing. He's in remission now today. But yeah, that was an interesting time too. It made me realize like how precious time really is, you know. He didn’t want to come up to Temecula to live with me, so he stayed in Mira Mesa. But I try to see him once a week or so. 02:29:26.000 --> 02:29:28.000 You come down to Mira Mesa? 02:29:28.000 --> 02:29:31.000 Yeah. So, on the way home, I’ll like stop by there or something. 02:29:31.000 --> 02:29:33.000 Okay. 02:29:33.000 --> 02:29:40.000 Mm-hmm. But, you know, it is weird. As your parents get older, they always want to see you. And, you know, when you’re young, you’re just kind of like passing by all the time. 02:29:40.000 --> 02:29:41.000 Yeah. 02:29:41.000 --> 02:29:43.000 Mm-hmm. 02:29:43.000 --> 02:29:51.000 Yeah. I feel like that’s the difference between being a kid and being an adult, is when you realize how important that relationship is, even if it’s difficult. 02:29:51.000 --> 02:30:46.000 Yeah. And like it or not, you are a reflection of some of those characteristics that your parents hold. I mean, me and my dad, we’re like—Okay, I’m stubborn like my mom. I’m determined all the time like my mom. And, you know, I don’t take no like an answer for her. But I’m also like calm in a way like my dad. I’m always nice, smiling. He’s a very—He was great with like paperwork. He kept all the bills organized and everything. And that kind of helps me with the whole OCD thing. But yeah, he’s always been good in that regard. But my mom was really bad at spending money. I didn’t get that from her. And my dad was the opposite, you know. So, I believe I took on the best qualities of both of them. Yeah. Hopefully. (laughs) 02:30:46.000 --> 02:30:50.000 I assume they never said they’re proud of you. 02:30:50.000 --> 02:31:50.000 No. That’s not—It took me a—Like I had to pull teeth to get my dad to even come to my graduation, my high school graduation. So—Because they’re just so used to it. You know, my brother, he ran the Lion Dance group for so long and he never came out to his show. He—It was always me showing up to his stuff. Like he’s done—he used to sing. He used to do theater stuff for VSA (Vietnamese Student Association) at UCSD (University of California, San Diego). They’ve never been to any of that, you know. But now I feel like my dad is more in tune. Every time I have like a TV interview or something, he wants to watch it or share it with his friends or whatever. So, he’s finally at a point where he’s like “Okay, cool.” But, yeah, they never—I don’t know. Maybe they were just so used to me and my brother doing crazy things that they’re not fazed by it. (laughs) You know what I mean? 02:31:50.000 --> 02:32:02.000 Do you—So, I did like some theater type stuff when I was a kid. And my parents didn’t come to that either. And I don’t know—Do you think on some—Is that a Vietnamese thing? Is that an Asian thing? Like for parents to not— 02:32:02.000 --> 02:33:03.000 I think it’s an Asian thing. Because I got A’s all my life. That doesn’t mean—I didn’t get awarded for any of that. It’s an expectation. You know what I mean? But it’s because they—especially for Vietnamese parents who just came over here, they expect everything to be easier than it is over there. But they don’t really have a true sense of a comparison. Because they’re not—They didn’t go through this, you know? They only went through that. So, you know, they’re just basing it on what they hear and, you know, overall like the—they’re comparing a way of life to a way of living, I guess you could say. I don’t know. Like a new way of living. But it’s definitely very different. The, what do you call it? The social temperature is different. Everything is different here. 02:33:03.000 --> 02:33:15.000 Do you have any thoughts on the social relationship between the Asian community and the Black community? 02:33:15.000 --> 02:33:16.000 Do I have what? 02:33:16.000 --> 02:33:21.000 Do you have any thoughts on that, observations? I’m leaving it open-ended. 02:33:21.000 --> 02:36:52.000 Okay. Well, I’ve been —I’ve heard a lot of things, but I haven’t experienced. I know that they, the Asian community, wanted to support the Black community during the whole George Floyd thing. I even got asked to speak at a George Floyd event which I did not accept. But—Because I didn’t think it was proper for me to—It had nothing to do with me, you know? But I’ve worked with a lot of, you know, Black non-profits and stuff. And they’re great. We support each other and everything. I guess it just depends on which area you’re in. You know? I don’t think they should be going against each other. I don’t—But I also hear that they’re not supporting our movement as much as we supported theirs. But I don’t think that applies to every city or anything. I think they just—Whatever is popular on the news today. And if—you know, we’re going to take what we can get. And if people were only reporting on Black on Asian crime or Asian on Black crime or whatever, that’s all we’re going to hear. I don’t necessarily—I don’t know. I think it’s—I don’t think it should be a conversation that includes only Asians and Blacks but Hispanics and everyone as well, you know what I mean? I think whenever there’s a problem, we should all get together and figure it out. Whether—Even—The white community suffers from the same, you know, poverty and everything as we do. Some of them do, right? So, why is it fair to exclude them when it comes to things like that. When it comes to fighting for like, you know, your healthcare and taxes and all that. Why is it like that? That’s why in my non-profit, I try not to—I didn’t want to exclude anybody. It’s not just for Asians or just for Blacks or Hispanics. It’s for everybody. I’m not going to say no to a white kid just because he’s not a minority. It doesn’t make sense, right? Because then they’ll become the new minority, right? So, that’s what I truly believe. It bothers me that every time, a lot of times, when people refer to my non-profit, they refer to it as, kind of like what you said earlier. Like they refer to what they want it to be. So, they would say like, “Oh. It’s an Asian non-profit.” Or it’s a non-profit for Hispanics on the border or something. And why does it have to be that, though, you know? It’s more like a headline thing than what it really means. So, yeah, at the end of the day, I don’t know, we should all stick together somehow. It’s hard because it’s so competitive in a way, I guess. Even with Asians. Asian non-profits I’ve worked with in the past, they’re oddly competitive when they are working towards the same goal, which is weird. 02:36:52.000 --> 02:36:59.000 I’ve heard that even just about Vietnamese non-profits, like down in the City Heights area, that I’m talking to. There’s so much like in-fighting. 02:36:59.000 --> 02:37:20.000 Yeah. But you know what’s weird? The non-profits that I work with, the community partners that support me the most, they’re all in Orange County. And they barely even know me, you know what I mean? But they share my stuff. They help me out. They work with each other. Everything is kind of like— 02:37:20.000 --> 02:37:21.000 Is it—Is that a coincidence? 02:37:21.000 --> 02:37:48.000 I don’t know. It’s weird because you think they’d be more competitive. Because there’s nothing but Asians up there, right? I don’t know. Maybe it’s competition to stand out in San Diego. Right? Because there’s so few that any time a new one pops up, you know they’re like oh, they’re going to take care of everybody. You know what I mean? But as long as everyone does a different thing, they can do whatever they want. If you’re going for the same goal, you might as well just like (makes a coming together upward sweep with his hands) unite. (chuckles) 02:37:48.000 --> 02:37:56.000 Yeah. I agree. That’s how I feel about all the different like storytelling type initiatives. Like they’re all good. We need more if anything. 02:37:56.000 --> 02:40:00.000 You need a different approach and you just—you can have different approaches for your audience. And you’ll attract different audiences. You know? But like yeah. I mean there’s a lot of podcasts that focus on one people and one people alone. And that’s great but you’re limiting yourself to other stories that could change your perspective like that. I’m a very open like—I try to be as well-rounded as possible. I try to understand everybody, where they come from, their values. I’m not—I don’t know. I used to be all about Viet pride ‘til I die type of deal. I used to hang out with nothing but Vietnamese gangsters. We used to, you know, pick on people that weren’t Vietnamese and hate on people that weren’t and, you know, protect our own. All the guys that just came here from Vietnam I would like take care of them. But as I grew up, I realized we all need each other, you know. Whether you’re Vietnamese or not. My wife, her family is—I’m like the only Asian in-law. You know? She’s Laotian, but all her brothers and sisters are married to non-Asians pretty much. And ironically, I’m the only Asian. So, that was like kind of weird for me. It was like “Whoa. This is different.” You know? Because my family is primarily, you know—my sister-in-law is Vietnamese, all my cousins. Well, I have one cousin that his wife is French. But same thing, you know? (chuckles) So, there’s pretty much just French and Vietnamese people. Yeah. And then I have a Black cousin that was adopted by my aunt in France back then. So, my family has always been pretty like essentially an open book. Accept anyone, you know. We don’t have nothing to hide. We love when new people come around so we can share like our food, culture, all that. Yeah. 02:40:00.000 --> 02:40:02.000 That’s nice. 02:40:02.000 --> 02:40:18.000 Mm-hmm. Because, you know, we grew up, especially in San Diego, we grew up in a melting pot. So, it’s not like we’re in freaking Utah or something. Then that’s like a different ballgame. Um, but yeah. We’re lucky. Pretty soon, I’m pretty sure every state will be similar. 02:40:18.000 --> 02:40:20.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. 02:40:20.000 --> 02:40:23.000 Yeah. (nods) 02:40:23.000 --> 02:40:24.000 Okay. Thank you for sharing. 02:40:24.000 --> 02:40:25.000 What else? (laughs) 02:40:25.000 --> 02:40:27.000 Um, I have more questions. How are you feeling energy-wise? 02:40:27.000 --> 02:40:28.000 No, I’m good. I’m good. Yeah. 02:40:28.000 --> 02:40:36.000 You’re good? Okay. Tell me about the non-profit (The Doan Foundation). 02:40:36.000 --> 02:40:43.000 Okay. So, it started—I started it August of 2022. 02:40:43.000 --> 02:40:44.000 Oh. It’s really new. 02:40:44.000 --> 02:45:55.000 Mm-hmm. So, I kept replaying something my dad told me when I was just—I think I was just taking him out to eat. And he—Obviously, my brother’s successful. I guess I’m successful now too. So, you know, he was just telling me like he’s glad that me and my brother have figured out that we made something of ourselves. Because, you know, he had cancer at the time. So, he was just like, you know, “If I pass away, like I wish I had something to give you guys, but I don’t.” And, you know, my dad has been struggling—Like he’s been working for, what, since 1993, pretty much the same company and, you know, getting paid through retirement. With all that hard work, he’s just making like $1,000 a month. How are you going to live on that, right? So, you know, he’s frustrated with that. He’s like “What am I going to do with this. Like I can’t even afford rent with this amount, you know.” And he just was venting to me. So, I realized like—It made me reflect on why our families came here in the first place, to give their kids a better life which he succeeded in. You know what I mean? You know, so, I told myself, you know, it’s pretty amazing that a family that came over here with literally nothing and grew up on freaking welfare and Section 8 and eating government cheese and, you know, cereal box samples, can get to a place like this. So, I wanted to create an organization where I could, I guess, motivate other kids who were in the same position as I was to do more. Or motivate their parents to realize that they can give that to their children just through, you know, being persistent and giving them a stable environment to grow up in. So, at first, I just wanted to do some scholarships. Because I was donating money yearly to just random non-profits. But I caught myself thinking about where this money was actually going, and I just—(shrugs shoulders) You don’t know, right? So, I was like “Okay, I got to do it myself.” And that’s my problem. Every time I have an idea, I just implement it immediately. So, I told my wife one night, it was like “You know what? I’m going to start a non-profit.” And she was like “Okay.” She’s not surprised anymore until like I actually do it. And the next day I did it. So, I put in the paperwork and everything. And then I just got going. I wasn’t going to do anything big. It was just going to be me pretty much funding it. Every year maybe some donor or something will want to. But I wasn’t trying to promote it or make it big or anything. But one of my friends, one of my older friends, he’s been working in the sector for over thirty years. So, he was like “You need help with anything, let me know. Just ask me, you know.” So, I have too much pride. So, I like, like I said, I like learning everything myself before I even ask the question. I don’t want to sound stupid ; you know. So, when I did need some confirmation on things, I finally called him. I told him what’s going on. I showed him the website. He looked at everything and he’s like “Dude, everything looks good.” He’s like “What do you need help with?” I’m like “I don’t know. You need to tell me.” Anyway, it’s been like that for a while, and I was telling him like “I just want to give away a few scholarships and then just go from there and build it up slowly.” He’s like “Then why do it at all?” So, at that point, I was like that’s true. I’m not known as the guy to go soft on anything, you know? I’m very all or nothing. So, I was like “alright.” So, he made the offer. So, I made him my chair, or I was going to make him my chair, okay? And then, he introduced me to a few people. And that’s when I met Thảo (Thao). So, Thảo Hà (Thao Ha). And it took a while, like four dinners, but she finally said she wanted to be a part of it, and she wanted to be chair. So, she became chair and then my other friend, he’s vice-chair and so forth. So, now that I have other people involved, now I have to go all in, right? So, I had to navigate my way strategically. There’s a lot of grants and stuff that aren’t available to non-profits that have been established under a year. So, I found out that the hard way after looking a lot. So, I had to rely on individual donors. So, I didn’t realize how many people I knew or how many businesses I know. And I kind of reached out to everybody. And we’ve raised like over $30,000 so far. It’s only been about six months. Yeah. And I funded ten scholarships already. 02:45:55.000 --> 02:45:56.000 Oh, my goodness! 02:45:56.000 --> 02:47:27.000 And I’m getting—The kids are going to get chosen on April 1st. Yeah. So, at the moment, I’m just focusing on southern California because I don’t feel—I would love to do all of California. But it just makes things less, I guess you could say, personal. I want to do more of like the kids in your backyard, kind of deal, you know. I respect organizations that are trying to solve global problems like world hunger. But I don’t feel like there’s an immediate resolution to that, you know. I wanted to do something that would affect these teenagers immediately, so they could like move on and take the next step. It’s more like a—It’s a pedestal. That’s what the “foundation” in Foundation stands for. Like you being the foundation for their futures. It’s not a family Foundation, you know. Because people use the terms interchangeably. So, sometimes people get confused. But, yeah, that’s what I mean when I say “foundation.” And yeah, I mean, hopefully we can do crazy things. I’m a guy with really crazy ideas. So, we’ll see what happens. But I really want to do something that’s related to the arts but includes every culture you can think of in one, you know. Have you ever been to the Multicultural Fair? In San Diego? In Linda Vista? 02:47:27.000 --> 02:47:28.000 No. 02:47:28.000 --> 02:47:43.000 They have it once a year. But it’s just like a little street fair thing. It’s very, really small. When I was young, I used to think it was huge. But, you know, it’s just food and some stuff. But I want to do that like on steroids. In the Convoy district somehow. 02:47:43.000 --> 02:47:46.000 Like in a multicultural fair? 02:47:46.000 --> 02:48:13.000 Mm-hmm. I want there to be like—I want them to shut down the streets and have a stage there for all different performers, every culture, all the food, different foods you can think of and all that. And kids could come and enjoy it, probably like during Christmas time or something, you know? But I want to do something like that for the city in the near future. (chuckles) But it’s a crazy undertaking. 02:48:13.000 --> 03:47:16.000 Have you spoken to the API (Asian Pacific Islander) Coalition? 03:47:16.000 --> 03:47:18.000 Mmm, I don’t think so. 03:47:18.000 --> 03:47:23.000 Okay. I can connect you if you want to but it’s basically the San Diego Asian API. 03:47:23.000 --> 03:48:38.000 Okay. There’s so many in San Diego that are named like different that are similar. But Nam from the Convoy district just sponsored our event. So, I know he is connected with that area. 03:48:38.000 --> 03:48:40.000 Okay. 03:48:40.000 --> 03:48:47.000 So, I don’t know. I’ll figure it out. But I’m trying to get everyone together to do something basically. I think it should be good. 03:48:47.000 --> 03:48:49.000 Is it Nam from Viet Vote? 03:48:49.000 --> 03:48:54.000 I don’t know. He owns Cross Street Chicken and Beer. 03:48:54.000 --> 03:48:58.000 Oh, okay. Maybe not the same. I don’t know. Okay. I mean that’s a common name, so— 03:48:58.000 --> 03:49:00.000 But my friend Nguyet was in Viet Vote. 03:49:00.000 --> 03:49:01.000 Who? 03:49:01.000 --> 03:49:04.000 Nguyệt (Nguyet). You don’t know Nguyệt Phạm (Nguyet Pham) ? 03:49:04.000 --> 03:49:16.000 I’ve never heard of him. Um, there’s also the—Well, we can talk about this more offline. But there’s also the Oceanside Southern California API Festival coming up next month. I’m on the planning committee for that. 03:49:16.000 --> 03:49:17.000 Sick. 03:49:17.000 --> 03:49:22.000 So, there’s always opportunities to talk to event planners. 03:49:22.000 --> 03:50:55.000 Yeah. I like to go to different—I mean, I would love to have the time. But I like going to all these different events just to see what’s going on, you know what I mean? Where people are doing different—turnout, how people absorb it. I have—I’ve been to a lot of different types of charity events from different cultures. And different initiatives, whether it comes to health or whatever. And it’s all really, really different. For say the really Vietnamese charities, super unorganized. But they always meet their goal. Right? Because everyone knows that they’re there to give money and eat and dance, whatever, sing or whatever. You know, I’ve been to a Japanese one. It was a little more strict, a little more Americanized. It was just too professional in a way. You know what I mean? There was no personal touch to it, like a sense of family. And then, you know, I’ve been to events. The events are different here and Orange County too, very different vibe. And I’m about to go to one hosted by the Ronald McDonald House Charities, which is going to be like the most off-the-wall one that I’m going to be going to. Because it’s super different, you know. There’s this one side for medical purpose for kids, and— 03:50:55.000 --> 03:50:57.000 I used to be a camp counselor for them. 03:50:57.000 --> 03:51:36.000 Yeah. And their organization has been there for forever. And they were super cool with me when I did the toy drive thing with them over Christmas. And you can feel peoples like intentions or ingenuity, you know. When I walked in there, no one talked to me different, anything, you know. We had a full conversation. They were the ones who I talked to a lot about—Because I have a problem with exploitation of—You know, on social media you see those videos where somebody will give like homeless people money and all that. 03:51:36.000 --> 03:51:37.000 Yeah. They’re filming themselves giving. 03:51:37.000 --> 03:52:45.000 Yeah. I don’t like that. But I understand now because of those women at the Ronald McDonald Foundation. Because I told them, when they told me to take a picture in front of the sign or whatever, I’m like “Ah, I don’t need to.” You know? Like it’s not important to me. And she’s like “You have to.” Like why? And she’s like “Because you have to show other people and lead by example. And if you don’t show them, give them the visual on this, then they’re not going to want to give to me or you.” You know what I mean? So, people need that motivator in order to do it. Because there will always be more people inspired by it than are disgusted by it, I guess you could say. So, at that point, I was like “Oh, okay, I’ll take a picture.” (both laugh). Yeah. But, um, yeah, it gave me a different perspective, you know? Because I give people money all the time. But I don’t, you know—I’m not going to write on Facebook like “Oh yeah. It was a good day. I gave this person $100.” Whatever, you know. Yeah, I hate that. (laughs) I hate it a lot. So, where were we going with that? 03:52:45.000 --> 03:52:49.000 Uh, we were talking about—You were telling me about the Foundation. 03:52:49.000 --> 03:54:21.000 The Foundation. Okay. So, yeah, I mean I’ve already had people try to ask me to implement programs at local elementary, middle schools. But I haven’t the slightest clue how—that’s not my field. You know what I mean? I’m sure I can make it happen. But at the moment, I just want to focus on teenagers because that’s what I know. What are—The life that they’re going through, the struggles and everything, I can relate to that most because I was—you know, that wasn’t too long ago for me. Versus I don’t know how the curriculum is in middle schools now. I don’t know how to deal with kids that age. Um, yeah. I was like crazy when I was that age. So, I don’t know. But I do want an, when I do expand, you know, education committee and all that. Hopefully we get there. You know, I’ve always had this weird—Like I guess I second guess myself a lot with, you know, whether—I second guessed whether the organization was going to get anywhere. Or whether people were confused? Or dissuaded by the name? Or the—how the mission wasn’t as romantic as these other ones, whatever. But now I’m finally content with the fact that I’m doing what I know is right and what I’m leaving and, you know, just hope that people are on the same page as me, you know. 03:54:21.000 --> 03:54:25.000 Do you feel like you’ve found your people? Who understand the Foundation? 03:54:25.000 --> 03:54:58.000 Yeah, yeah. I mean it’s the first year and you never know. Of course, everyone’s going to support you. I mean, that’s not true actually. But people want to support you on that first year. And if you do well, then they’ll keep doing it. If you mess up, then you’ll never see them again. So, I mean, it’s been six months and I’ve done okay. So, we’ll see what happens. But anyone that knows me knows that they can trust me and knows that if I do something, it’s going to be the right way. You know what I mean? 03:54:58.000 --> 03:55:02.000 Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say that too. I’m sure you just have to decide and then you’ll just make it happen. 03:55:02.000 --> 03:55:16.000 Yeah. Yeah. Luckily, everyone came together for this and, you know, most people are donating like DJ services, photography, whatever. So, there’s a lot of community getting together for this which is cool. 03:55:16.000 --> 03:55:24.000 That’s great. And the scholarships. Tell me more. Like are these like scholarships for the teenagers to go to college to study art? Or— 03:55:24.000 --> 03:56:45.000 My scholarships actually can be used for like barber school if they want. Yeah. Or any type of technical school. Because a lot of the kids in these neighborhoods, sometimes they don’t have the option or the time to, you know, put all their focus into their studies in high school. Sometimes they have to start working at fifteen, sixteen years old because they’ve got to take care of their family. Or they might need like a $500 scholarship to get an airplane to fly to South Carolina where they’ll be going to school. You know? They might not be able to afford that. Or they might have to help their parents with the one last phone bill or something before they can go off and do their thing. You know? So, that’s what a lot of other scholarship funds, programs, they don’t think about. They don’t think about these other jobs that—like becoming a barber, you know. No one thinks about that. But, you know, you go through a little bit of school and it’ll provide you something to, you know, a tool to use for the rest of your life. Where you can always go back to it if you want to and it can be a very prosperous career if you put your head into it, yeah, just like doing nails. I mean there’s no school for becoming a tattoo artist but, you know— 03:56:45.000 --> 03:56:49.000 Oh. There’s no school for becoming a tattoo artist. I never thought about that. 03:56:49.000 --> 03:57:42.000 Well, technically no. There are here and there. They’re trying to pop up. But they’re very frowned upon. Because it’s literally like a few weeks course or something. And you’ve got to pay a lot of money for it and what do you really learn, you know? I wouldn’t say they hazed apprentices back then, but it was much more difficult. And the caliber that you had to reach was a lot higher than it is now. You know what I mean? Very hard to get into the industry back then, but easy to stand out. And now it’s easy to get in, hard to stand out. Because everyone’s trying to get into it. I’m just lucky I’m like grandfathered in, at this point. I was like the last generation of like the original, like old dudes. Yeah. 03:57:42.000 --> 03:57:43.000 Does that mean you’re an old dude? 03:57:43.000 --> 03:58:16.000 No. (Ho laughs) But most of them were. I was so young. That’s what gave me the advantage. You know, I had more time to grow. A lot of those guys now that had tattooed in the ‘90s, early 2000s, they kind of—they never changed their ways. They never caught up with the times. They’re just so stuck in their old ways and they’re so stubborn that, you know, they just inevitably—their careers just take a dive. 03:58:16.000 --> 03:58:20.000 When you say, “stuck in their old ways,” do you mean like in terms of like technical skills? 03:58:20.000 --> 03:59:48.000 Mm-hmm. That, technology has changed. The tools have changed. You know, you’re not going to catch a 60-year-old tattoo artist posting on social media every day, right? Yeah. I mean that’s where your portfolio is. That’s where everything is now. You’ve got to interact with your customers. If you’re rude or something, it’s going to immediately go on Yelp. And it’s hard. It is really hard for them. Yeah, I have guys I looked up to back then that they’re just—they still—they’re actually tattooing worse now than they used to because, you know, I feel like they’re trying to catch up to these younger guys, their styles and everything, that they just end up losing their own style. And I don’t know, it sucks. But that’s just the way it is now. Either you survive, or you don’t. You know what I mean? But I guess the older guys, their hustler’s mentality was a lot more prominent than the kids now. I don’t think the kids that are getting into it—They’re not built as hard as the tattoo artists that grew up back then. That’s why they’re able to stay in the industry for so long, you know. A lot of kids now, it’s so easy for them to learn how to do it on YouTube, whatever. And then they’ll just give up if they get bored or something. They never really stick with it. 03:59:48.000 --> 03:59:49.000 Okay. 03:59:49.000 --> 04:00:29.000 And then, another thing is back then you didn’t really have any tattoo artists that were like art students in college or something. And now, you have people just graduating out of college and they’re like crazy phenomenal because, you know, they went to art school rather than tattoo school underground somewhere in the basement. Yeah. So, they were frowned upon for a while too. Because it’s like the same thing with the military when people that graduate and become automatically like officers in the Navy or something. And you’ve got other guys who have been there since they were 18 years old and working their way up. Same deal. I mean, I don’t really care. Like if you’re talented, you’re talented. I’ll teach you, you know? 04:00:29.000 --> 04:00:30.000 Okay. 04:00:30.000 --> 04:00:31.000 Yeah. 04:00:31.000 --> 04:00:33.000 So, do you like providing mentorship? 04:00:33.000 --> 04:01:19.000 Um, I did for a while. I just took on my last apprentice. She just got done two months ago. I’m not going to teach anyone else for a while. Yeah. Because it takes up a lot of my time and I don’t feel like it’s fair to take someone on if I don’t have the time to do it. Or my full attention, you know. Yeah. And a lot of people are going—they’re like charging to teach people now. Whereas before, you just earned it. It’s free. They just had to put in the work, like throw out the trash and all that. It's like a full-ride scholarship. But then now, yeah, a lot of artists are charging for apprenticeships which I still don’t agree with that, you know. Yeah. 04:01:19.000 --> 04:01:26.000 So, then, if somebody wanted to become a tattoo artist, really all they need to do is find a mentor who will let them apprentice. 04:01:26.000 --> 04:02:17.000 Yep. And before, it was like one in a million. Now, as long as you have money, you just pay somebody, and they’ll teach you. You know, so it makes—it dilutes the industry a little bit. But I believe if you’re going to—you know, if your work is good enough, you’re always going to stand out. Right? Yeah, but people like Photoshopping fake tattoos online and stuff now too. So, it makes it really weird. Yeah, so people have a unrealistic expectation sometimes of how a tattoo should look, how it should be done. They watch these shows, and they think that’s exactly how it’s going to be. Or the drama and all that. But, I don’t know. I guess the good thing is society doesn’t frown on it anymore, even in Asia. I heard Vietnam has a bunch of tattoo shops now. 04:02:17.000 --> 04:02:19.000 Yeah. I’ve heard that too. 04:02:19.000 --> 04:02:38.000 Yeah. So, that’s a good thing for the industry itself. Because before it was nothing but—people just looked at it as bikers, gangsters, and basically all the bad people in the world was a tattooed people, you know. 04:02:38.000 --> 04:02:41.000 Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds very different now. 04:02:41.000 --> 04:02:44.000 Mm-hmm. Even you have tattoos. (laughs) 04:02:44.000 --> 04:02:57.000 Even I do! Um, okay (pause) I have like six more questions. But like we’ve been sitting here a while, so I don’t want to wear you out completely. 04:02:57.000 --> 04:02:58.000 What’s the questions? 04:02:58.000 --> 04:03:20.000 Tell me—I want to know how you’ve grown. Like what are some big lessons you’ve learned? And I don’t necessarily mean from childhood to adulthood. But it could be within the last week, or within the last decade. Like how have you grown? You’ve grown a lot because of what you went through as a kid, but — 04:03:20.000 --> 04:05:33.000 I don’t know. That’s a hard question. I guess I’ve learned not to expect anything from anybody, you know. For example, okay, let’s say you’re my apprentice today. You’re my student, okay? Let’s say I help you grow. I help you, you know, establish this career for yourself that’s going to help you out for the rest of your life. And you’re doing that with me. I’m helping you for two years and then you’re finally done, right? My—Most people would say, “Oh, oh you owe me. I did this for you. And, you know, you’ve got to work for me for this amount of years and I’m going to ruin you if you leave.” All that stuff. But that’s not me. You know, I was able to see that from a third person point of view while seeing my business partner think that way of my employees, you know. So, I’m glad that I was able to see that because, basically, you know, people grow, and people move on. You can’t expect somebody to be there no matter what. And, basically, it’d be detrimental to their own success just because they feel they owe you something? It doesn’t make sense. So, I’m glad I learned that early on because that’s helped me a lot in dealing with artists that work for me and respecting them and understanding that nothing is forever, you know. And you’ve always got to be ready for them to grow. And that’s fine. And you should be there to help them grow rather than, you know, rather than step down on them. And, you know, as long as you put that energy out there, everything goes good, you know. And people don’t want to stay because they’re forced to. They want to stay because they want to, right? That applies to everything, relationships, you know, everything. 04:05:33.000 --> 04:05:50.000 I guess, when you’re talking throughout this whole time, and when I met you, I get a sense of contentment as you said, but also confidence in your future, because of these bricks that you’re laying out. Like you seem very confident that everything will turn out the way it should. 04:05:50.000 --> 04:05:51.000 Yes. 04:05:51.000 --> 04:05:54.000 Does that feel right to you? Or do you still doubt? 04:05:54.000 --> 04:08:43.000 Mmm, yes and no. But even if I doubt myself, I’m a problem solver. So, I don’t—My wife always tells me like “Oh, you won’t tell me what you’re going through.” Or whatever. I’d say because if I don’t have a solution, then there’s no point in talking about it. Because talking about it is not going to make me come to the solution. I’d rather use the time worrying about it to come up with a way to solve it. You know, I’m very–I’m good at compartmentalizing my thoughts. So, that’s why I can work on like thirty things at the same time and I’m fine. Whereas other people would go freaking crazy, right. But I’m used to that because I’ve always been so interested in so many things. And I’ve always told people as a tattoo artist, it was really hard for me to be good at the beginning stages because I was trying to do everything. Because the artists now, they specialize in one thing and one thing only. Like, you know, one guy might be a portrait artist, but he might suck with line work or something. One guy might do American traditional tattoos and he sucks at shading. One guy does Asian work, and he has no clue how to do like very fine line stuff. And, you know, that path for them was the correct path for them. And it might have only taken them a year or two, whatever, if that’s all they were doing. Whereas me, I was trying to do lettering, Chicano work, Asian work, realism. I was trying to do all of it at the same time in a parallel fashion, so, it took me a lot longer to master all of them at the same time. That’s the same way I am for business, like trying to navigate my tattoo business. Trying to navigate my clothing line. Helping my wife with her beauty line. Doing a non-profit. (laughs) And, yeah, doing everything else too. So, it’s definitely crazy. But, you know, I encounter problems here and there and little hiccups. But I work through it. I solve it, you know. There’s no point in—I just feel like people waste too much time worrying about things that haven’t happened or may not ever happen. Yeah. There’s no time, basically. Time is the most precious thing that you have. You can’t get it back. You can’t make more of it. Yep. So, people ask me why I stay up so late every day. Why I wake up so early. Why I’m doing so much. And honestly, it’s because I’m already—I’m turning 33. So, I only have maybe, I don’t know, fifteen years before my business dies down a little bit, maybe popularity. So, I have to make my mark now to buy myself more years. You know what I mean? 04:08:43.000 --> 04:08:47.000 Yeah. Yeah, you’re investing in future you, it sounds like. 04:08:47.000 --> 04:08:48.000 Yep. 04:08:48.000 --> 04:09:09.000 Okay. Going back to the styles of art, is there any style or anything that you wish you could do more of? I mean, I’ve seen what you get a lot of. 04:09:09.000 --> 04:09:10.000 Mmm, not really. I mean, I like to do everything. That’s the problem. That’s why my waiting list is so long. I take on every project that comes to me. It’s really rare where I’ll say “Aw, I can’t do it.” 04:09:10.000 --> 04:09:12.000 Why would you say no to someone? 04:09:12.000 --> 04:10:13.000 If it’s like a dumb idea, or one that—Like I had a guy come in one time. And—it was a white guy—he had a consultation with me. He wanted a Buddha tattooed on him, right? And he was wearing like a cross necklace, so I knew he wasn’t Buddhist. But he wanted a Buddha tattoo on him, and I asked him where he wanted it. And he said on his leg. And I’m like “You can’t get it on your leg. It’s like disrespectful.” And he said he wanted bud leaves like around it, like marijuana leaves. And I’m like “Okay.” (laughs) Like that makes no sense. And I’m like “I don’t know if I’m the right guy for you, for that.” But, yeah, usually, you know, it’s hard because if you say no, then you’re rejecting a customer. And if you say yes, then you’re going against your own like morals. So, the only thing I can do is drive them away with my price. So, I told him I was going to charge him like $3,000 or something. And he said no. That’s it. 04:10:13.000 --> 04:10:14.000 Okay. 04:10:14.000 --> 04:10:25.000 So, it doesn't make me the bad guy. But that’s how you turn those things. But yeah. Ideas like that. Or people want to get each other’s names and they’ve only been together for like a week. I don’t do those. 04:10:25.000 --> 04:10:26.000 Do people ask you for that? 04:10:26.000 --> 04:10:43.000 Yeah. Yeah. But I usually make them wait, wait about two years. And I’ll give them like a ridiculous price too, you know. For them to think about it a second time. Usually, they break up within the next few months. (Ho laughs) Yeah. It happens a lot. 04:10:43.000 --> 04:10:44.000 Oh my god. 04:10:44.000 --> 04:10:48.000 Yep. That’s why we don’t take walk-ins. Because people make those irrational decisions, you know. 04:10:48.000 --> 04:10:51.000 Mmm. Okay. Yeah. 04:10:51.000 --> 04:10:53.000 (chuckles) We’re responsible. 04:10:53.000 --> 04:11:09.000 Right. This is going to be a weird question. But you’re pretty open about your past. And you’re writing this memoir. It’s going to be published. 04:11:09.000 --> 04:11:10.000 Yeah. 04:11:10.000 --> 04:11:16.000 And your family knows that you share all this info. 04:11:16.000 --> 04:13:20.000 Mmm, I don’t know. I don’t know if they’re even interested. That’s the weird thing. I mean, they know that I do interviews and articles and stuff. But they’re just kind of like—Like I said. It’s nothing new to them. In their brain, they’re just like “Oh, yeah. He’s doing that. That’s cool.” You know. I guess they just don’t get excited about anything. So, I don’t even know. I don’t think my brother knows I’m writing a book. But I actually don’t want my family to read my book because it’s going to—I mean, I know what it’s about. I know how it’s going to affect them. But they don’t know that yet. And like if they read it, it’s going to mess them up, you know. Because it’s not like a blame game, type of calling people out thing. It’s just–it’s the truth, you know. And I’ve never told the truth in a very raw way, like I’m going to do in there. I’ve always kind of like made it more from a broad statement or gave people little details here and there. But that thing—what I’m writing is pretty much uncut, all the way. Yeah. It was pretty crazy to write it. Because I haven’t—Some of the thoughts that I wrote about in there, I haven’t thought about it for, you know, twenty or thirty years. Not thirty years, but twenty, twenty-five years or so. So, it was weird. I even had to stop midway because it was too much for me. Like overwhelming wise. So, I stopped. I haven’t written in it. I haven’t written for about eight months. Yeah. I had my editor edit what I have so far, though. And I haven’t even looked at that yet. I’m just kind of like—I’m all over the place right now. But I feel like when the time is right, I’m going to sit down and finish it, you know. Because the half-book that I wrote which is already 35,000 words or something, I wrote all that within like two weeks. And that’s it. Yeah. So, whenever I get that urge again to do it, I’m pretty sure I’m just going to knock it out. 04:13:20.000 --> 04:13:24.000 So, what gives you that urge, that motivation? 04:13:24.000 --> 04:14:34.000 I don’t know. That’s the weird thing. Yeah. I just kind of know when the time is right, you know. Yeah, it’s weird. I guess when everything else kind of settles down, I’ll be able to focus my thoughts more on that. Because right now, I’m doing like these news interview articles in—and it’s all kind of similar themed. So, I’m having to use my words and my energy to do those interviews. And then, by the time I’m ready to write my book, I can’t really—you know, I don’t want to keep repeating because I get bored easily. So, if I keep repeating that same thought like all week, I’ll be like when I’m writing it, I’m going to feel bored. Therefore, I feel like my reader is going to feel bored. But, I mean, I know that’s not the case. Because the reader has never read it before. But, you know, that’s like me making freaking boiled eggs every day for three days, you know. It’s—If I’m not interested in it, I’m not going to want to make it interesting or sound interesting. And I end up going back and changing everything anyway. I’m very hard on myself. 04:14:34.000 --> 04:14:36.000 Well, yeah. Yeah. You are. 04:14:36.000 --> 04:15:11.000 Yeah. (chuckles) I’m super particular. So, everything has to be perfect or close to perfect, pretty much. Because people—growing up, people always expected the worst from me, you know what I mean? Or the minimum, because of what I went through. So, now everything that I do has to go above and beyond what people expect. Right? And that’s that pressure, especially the pressure that your parents kind of—They kind of like instill that in you, growing up here in America. So, yeah. 04:15:11.000 --> 04:15:30.000 You do a lot of giving. Like you do things for your community. You give money. You do interviews like this or with the news outlets or whatever. Your work with the Model Minority Project. You really give a lot of yourself. 04:15:30.000 --> 04:15:32.000 Yeah. I try. 04:15:32.000 --> 04:15:34.000 And you expect a lot of yourself. 04:15:34.000 --> 04:16:18.000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I have my brother to thank for that. He was—He’s tried to be as well-rounded his whole life and tried to show me like who I should be, what I should do, what I should strive to be, you know what I mean? And although I am—the way I grew up is totally different from him, I still kind of—I’m in the same place now. You know, it’s weird. This guy used to make me study the dictionary every day, right? And so, I would have to learn two words from the dictionary and remember it. And I would have to tell him what they were every night. And if I forgot, then he would kick me out of the house, at like six, seven years old. 04:16:18.000 --> 04:16:20.000 Wow! Would you ever forget? 04:16:20.000 --> 04:16:47.000 I forgot once. But then I remembered after I was outside for like two hours. Yeah. (laughs) So, he would do that. I would never want to ask him for help on homework because every time I had one problem, he would create twenty more problems to make sure I would never have that problem again. So, yeah. (laughs) So, that’s what I did. So, perfection is what I always strive for pretty much. Mm-hmm. 04:16:47.000 --> 04:16:49.000 And do you feel like you accomplish it? 04:16:49.000 --> 04:19:04.000 Mmm, I don’t know. Who really knows. You know what I mean? That’s a hard one. I think I’ve–I’m the best in—I don’t know how to explain this. I guess I made the best of what I had, to its maximum potential. Yeah. And now I’m in a place where I can expand on that, you know. For so long, I only dealt with my own people, friends, community, and the tattoo community. And I wasn’t able to break through the walls of like everybody else. And now, I’m finally like there. So, it can only go up from here, I guess. But in a different way. I knew I couldn’t get to everybody by being a tattoo artist or purely a tattoo artist. Having people see me as an artist, though, it expanded the audience a little more. And now that the non-profit is in the picture, it’s going to—things are going to be different for the better, you know. I’m able to amplify the voices of kids. I’m able to bring attention to how important like cultural, our cultural arts are, and kind of give hope in a time where everyone is just thinking about nothing but negativity and all the craziness going on in the world, you know. Like I never put anything out there that’s negative. I don’t post like negative quotes online or shame anybody or anything. That’s just not who I am. I believe the best revenge is kindness. You know, it doesn’t matter how society looks at you. It’s not your job to force them to respect you or any of that. It is your job to change the, I guess, the perspective. Change the taboos. Yeah. I think that was about it. (laughs) 04:19:04.000 --> 04:19:06.000 Okay. Okay. 04:19:06.000 --> 04:19:08.000 What else you got? 04:19:08.000 --> 04:19:30.000 Okay. So, three more questions. I’m not making any more notes because I keep thinking of things. Actually, four questions. Okay, then I’m done. What do people not know about you? You’re so open about everything. What’s something we don’t know yet. 04:19:30.000 --> 04:19:32.000 Mmm. I don’t know. 04:19:32.000 --> 04:19:34.000 (laughs) You’re like “I can’t share for a reason.” 04:19:34.000 --> 04:20:53.000 Well, one thing people don’t know really—Most people that look the most put together or they look like they know what they’re doing, usually don’t know what they’re doing, you know. I—When I get into—Obviously, you can’t—You can study, you know, airplanes all day. Like you can know every part on a airplane. You can do simulations. You can do all that. But that doesn’t mean you’re going to be able to fly the airplane. You got to—You don’t know until you get on. That’s the same thing in business or life, everything else, you know. I guess everything that I talk about, I’ve done already rather than I’m going to do, you know. I rarely talk about like “Oh, yeah. You know, I’m going to go—I’m going to buy a Ferrari next year.” Or something. Like everything that I try to teach people in order to help them is stuff that I’ve already been through, you know. And I’ve—Mistakes I’ve already made or what not. I’m not going to sell somebody something that, you know, I didn’t buy myself. But yeah. I think that’s my biggest secret. You just—You don’t know what you’re getting into until you do it. Most of the time when I get into something, I have no clue what I’m doing, you know. You just kind of figure it out along the way. 04:20:53.000 --> 04:21:01.000 Yeah. Okay. Okay. That’s a good segue into my next question. What is next for you? What haven’t you done that you want to do? 04:21:01.000 --> 04:21:04.000 Mmm, I don’t know. I don’t think there’s anything— 04:21:04.000 --> 04:21:06.000 Even just like—Really? 04:21:06.000 --> 04:21:10.000 Yeah. I don’t think there’s anything that I want. I mean, I want to do like crazy stuff. So— 04:21:10.000 --> 04:21:13.000 Tell me. Like even just like a vacation that you haven’t taken yet. 04:21:13.000 --> 04:21:15.000 I’m not really into vacations. 04:21:15.000 --> 04:21:16.000 Okay. You’re a workaholic. 04:21:16.000 --> 04:22:07.000 Because they—I feel like they put me further behind. And that stresses me out even more when I get back. That’s the problem. I’ll take a vacation for two, three days but if I do a week, then I have a week of people to respond to, too many projects to do. And it just, it makes me, it messes up my rhythm. You know what I mean? Like I can’t stop my momentum when I have it. Well, I have it all the time, but when I do have it like in a great amount, I can’t just “Oh, I’m going to take three days and not do anything and come back.” It actually makes me—It messes up my mind. It makes me like depressed. It—I don’t know. I don’t know how to explain it. When I’m home for more than two days, I feel like I didn’t do anything, I’m useless and all that. That’s crazy. 04:22:07.000 --> 04:22:09.000 Do you ever rest then? 04:22:09.000 --> 04:22:40.000 I do. I mean I’m a very—I’m more keen on consistency than, you know—I’ll do like four or five days—I mean four or five days—four or five hours of sleep every day. That’s all I really need. And then I’ll go through my routine, you know. I mean my routine might not be the same every day. Obviously, I have different tattoos every day. Sometimes, I’ll have five, ten minutes here and there and I’ll try and do my other like microtasks in between. But I always get everything done. So— 04:22:40.000 --> 04:22:48.000 Okay. Okay. Two more questions. What are you the most proud of that you’ve done? 04:22:48.000 --> 04:25:02.000 Mmm, it’s probably establishing my non-profit. Because it’s—I, when I started tattooing, it was purely about my survival. I needed money, you know. And as I was able to make money off of it—you know, as your early twenties, you really don’t know what your purpose is. You don’t think about, you know, the 401k and all that. And you’re not taught that in the neighborhood either. You’re not taught how to spend your money, how to invest. I used all my financial aid on like car parts, okay. It’s like $7,000 worth. And I don’t even have that car anymore. But it was dumb. But no one told me it was dumb, right? So, I kept trying to find a purpose. And that purpose always changed. I mean, you know, it could have been like nice cars which I got, and I got bored of. It didn’t make me happy. It could have been like buying the most expensive food. I’ve tried all of it, didn’t make me happy. It became, you know, teaching others how to make a career for themselves. And that was–that made me happy. So, I was just like “Okay. What do I do when tattooing itself is not enough?” So, that’s when I needed another purpose. And that purpose was building other people like me, basically, yeah, to hopefully come together. And, you know, by me giving to them hopefully they do the same in return for the next generation after them. Because every—we’re losing our—I think we’re losing our culture right now. I think that the kids are just too lazy and uninterested. And parents are feeding into it, I guess you could say. I see more and more the parents are having to learn how to speak English to communicate with their kids, rather than their kids having to learn Vietnamese to communicate with their parents, right? 04:25:02.000 --> 04:25:03.000 Okay, yes. 04:25:03.000 --> 04:26:47.000 And even my cousin. My cousin came here—he’s my age—he came here when he was 12 from Vietnam. He doesn’t even understand Vietnamese today. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And he lives in Chula Vista. It’s not like, you know—he’s not in the Midwest or anything. So, yeah, we’re losing it. My Lion dance group disbanded because the kids just—they won’t want to do it anymore. They’re not interested in it anymore. But yeah. It’s like a epidemic, right now, pretty much. Especially in San Diego, you know, where, you know, there’s a mix. There’s a lot of Asians here but there is not predominantly Asian. We’re suffering a lot from it. I feel like a lot of non-profits are going through it, though. Because I have a client who runs a dance, a little dance non-profit company for, you know, young kids at Balboa Park. And she tells me every year there’s less and less people. And the less people there are, the less board members are there going to be because of the parents. And then no parents means there’s not a lot of programs which means no donors for programs because they don’t have it. And then eventually it just evaporates. You know what I mean? But, I mean, the good thing is—the good thing that came from this AAPI movement is we came together. We established a new cycle of initiatives that will last, you know, for how long. I don’t know how long it’s going to last. I guess as long as this is a problem for us, which is going to be forever. But you know people forget. And then people move on. And then something else has to happen. And it just starts all over again. It’s just like war, you know. 04:26:47.000 --> 04:26:51.000 That’s a good analogy. 04:26:51.000 --> 04:27:16.000 Mm-hmm. So, when does it really stop? And I don’t like the fact that some non-profits that I’ve seen, they just try to create more problems to solve when, you know, they run out of funding or something. I don’t know. It’s weird. I’m always torn with that. Like what does an organization do when everything is solved? Right? (laughs) 04:27:16.000 --> 04:27:17.000 Yeah. That’s a good question. 04:27:17.000 --> 04:27:20.000 It’s like what’s a military contract going to do when the war is over? 04:27:20.000 --> 04:27:23.000 Right. In peace time. Yeah. 04:27:23.000 --> 04:27:43.000 Yeah. So, it’s a very great thing but I feel like some people take advantage of it and those people make it look bad for everybody else. Right? Just like with tattoo artists. Some guys are knuckleheads and make everyone else look bad. Yeah. So, that’s why I always—I get pulled over walking all the time. (laughs) 04:27:43.000 --> 04:27:44.000 Because of the way you look. 04:27:44.000 --> 04:28:07.000 Yep. Yep. But that’s okay. Because I’m always polite. Whatever. I never give them a hard time. And I would pull myself over if I looked like this. You know, right? So, that’s how it’s going to be for a while ‘til things change, ‘til I like make a big donation to the police or something. (both laughs) That’s how it all works. 04:28:07.000 --> 04:28:27.000 So, you mentioned the kids losing the culture. That’s a good segue into my last question. So, you have a new granddaughter. What do you want for her in terms of this world she lives in, and also community and culture? 04:28:27.000 --> 04:29:56.000 Well, interestingly, she’s Black and Asian. So, she’s going to have a very interesting, you know, take on the world. I want her to absorb both cultures, obviously. And celebrate it. And, I mean, my wife is pretty Americanized. But she still has her, you know, Asian cooking roots, traditions. Even though she’s the one that was born here in her family, and the youngest, she’s the only one who knows how to do like the traditional stuff, which is weird. And me too. I’m the only one who cúngs (cungs, ancestor worship rituals, Vietlish) and stuff. And my brother’s the one who was born in Vietnam. So, I mean we can obviously like teach her those things. Have her grow up in that environment. And then my stepdaughter’s boyfriend’s mom, she’s very, you know, she’s a very proud Black woman as well. I’m sure she’ll teach her everything she needs to know about what to look out for and all that. So, yeah, it should be interesting. I just want—I mean, she’s in this area. So, it’s not that bad. I mean, we’re really accepting. Everyone here is pretty much mixed now. And everyone respects each other. I mean, we respect each other’s food, cultures, all that. We celebrate it here. So, I don’t think it’s too crazy down here. As long as she doesn’t go to anywhere else, we're good. 04:29:56.000 --> 04:29:59.000 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 04:29:59.000 --> 04:30:07.000 Yeah. But I want her to be aware who she is, where she comes from. Yeah. So— 04:30:07.000 --> 04:30:13.000 Is there anything I should have asked that I didn’t ask? Or is there anything else that you want to say? 04:30:13.000 --> 04:30:38.000 Mmm, I don’t know. I think we covered everything. What else? Oh, in regards to the kids now not being motivated by culture and stuff. Well, I feel like for the longest time, you know, there’s teachers—Asian teachers look a certain way. Parents— 04:30:38.000 --> 04:30:40.000 You mean like schoolteachers? 04:30:40.000 --> 04:32:32.000 Yeah. Parents look a certain way, have a certain way of thinking, whatever. And I look different. Okay? So, I feel like they may absorb it differently coming from me. Because I knew when I was in my Lion’s Dance group, all the kids, you know, they thought they were so cool because I’m tatted and everything. And I was doing this thing with them, you know. And I was older than them and they looked up to that, right? So, I feel like it’s the same way with, you know, if I go to the high school auditorium and speak to the kids. They’re going to take it differently than if some, you know, let’s say like an Asian engineer or something came and talked to them, right? Because they can’t connect with those people. People who have taken a different path, pretty much. Because most of these kids that I’m trying to help, they’ve never thought about college in their life. Because they never thought it was an option. Nor did they think any of these careers that I’m trying to make them aware of exist either, you know. So, we want to do a career workshop sometime in the future where there would be let’s say a station on photography, and one on graphic design, one on barbering, one on, I don’t know, fashion or something. So, we want to make all that available so that these kids understand what they’re getting into before they go into it. Because half of the time, when you check off that major box for college, you don’t know what you’re about to do. Right? And you might go to school for, you know, four years to be a graphic designer and realize like there’s no jobs in it, or you hate it. All right? So, it’s good to have insight into that before you sign up and spend all your money on that. 04:32:32.000 --> 04:32:35.000 Yeah. So, you want to do like a career fair type of thing, you said? 04:32:35.000 --> 04:32:41.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I want to do that like once every season or something. Yeah. 04:32:41.000 --> 04:32:44.000 Like tailored towards teenagers. 04:32:44.000 --> 04:32:51.000 The arts only. Yeah, so high school seniors. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Don’t know how I’m doing it yet, but we’ll see. 04:32:51.000 --> 04:32:52.000 I’m sure you’ll find a way. 04:32:52.000 --> 04:33:00.000 Um, Thao said there’s a lot of libraries and stuff that offer their space or something. So, I’m like “Alright.” We’ll see. 04:33:00.000 --> 04:33:01.000 Yeah. Okay. 04:33:01.000 --> 04:33:13.000 Yeah. It’s just, I need someone to talk to them. But I’ve got to feel people out because if they’re not ready to see somebody like me when I approach them, then it’s very interesting where it ends up. (laughs) 04:33:13.000 --> 04:33:16.000 Well, I have connections in the library world— 04:33:16.000 --> 04:33:17.000 Oh, that’s nice. Yeah. I’ll let you know. 04:33:17.000 --> 04:33:20.000 —being a librarian. So— 04:33:20.000 --> 04:33:24.000 Yeah. My brother worked at the Linda Vista Library for twelve years. 04:33:24.000 --> 04:33:25.000 That’s awesome. 04:33:25.000 --> 04:33:35.000 Mm-hmm. I used to go there all the time with him. Because I had to go to work with him. And I used to sit there and just read books all day as a kid. Yeah. That’s why I don’t read now. (laughs) 04:33:35.000 --> 04:33:36.000 (laughs) You had enough! 04:33:36.000 --> 04:33:40.000 Yeah. I hate reading, but I’m writing a book which is ironic— 04:33:40.000 --> 04:33:41.000 Yeah, very ironic. 04:33:41.000 --> 04:33:55.000 —but I like to read things that are relevant to—more like non-fiction, like the news or something. I’m not really a fantasy guy. Because I don’t like living in a fantasy. (both laugh) 04:33:55.000 --> 04:33:57.000 Is the Linda Vista Library still there? 04:33:57.000 --> 04:33:58.000 Mm-hmm. 04:33:58.000 --> 04:34:00.000 Do you think about your time there every time you drive by? 04:34:00.000 --> 04:34:03.000 I volunteered there when I was thirteen for like a year. 04:34:03.000 --> 04:34:04.000 Cool. 04:34:04.000 --> 04:34:15.000 I was trying to work there, but they didn’t want to hire me. It’s a city job. So, it’s like they couldn’t hire anyone under a certain age anymore, I think, at the time. 04:34:15.000 --> 04:34:16.000 Okay. I think it’s sixteen. 04:34:16.000 --> 04:34:27.000 Yeah. Because when my brother was working there in the ‘90s, I think like ’94, ’95, he was getting paid a lot, like $12 an hour. At sixteen years old. 04:34:27.000 --> 04:34:28.000 That’s good. 04:34:28.000 --> 04:34:29.000 Yeah. That’s ridiculous. 04:34:29.000 --> 04:34:34.000 Yeah. Yeah. I was making $5.75 when I was sixteen. 04:34:34.000 --> 04:34:35.000 Oh, yeah? 04:34:35.000 --> 04:34:38.000 Yeah. That was in the mid-90s, I think. Yeah. 04:34:38.000 --> 05:34:37.000 Yeah. That was crazy. He only worked maybe three days a week. And that was enough for him to go on dates and stuff. So, yeah. That’s my life. 05:34:37.000 --> 05:34:49.000 Okay. Is there anything else you want to add before we— 05:34:49.000 --> 05:34:52.000 I think that’s it that I can think of. 05:34:52.000 --> 05:34:56.000 Okay. Well, thank you for sharing your thoughts. 05:34:56.000 --> 05:34:57.000 No worries. 05:34:57.000 --> 05:35:00.000 And doing this for the community. All right. 05:35:00.000 --> 05:35:05.000 So, what’s next? You’re going to get a few on there and build a website? 05:35:05.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Yes. We are going to—(recording ends). NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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Doan, Dennis "Dizzy". Interview March 6, 2023.
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Dennis "Dizzy" Doan is a Vietnamese American tattoo artist, writer and philanthropist in San Diego, California. In this interview, he speaks on his family and upbringing, as well as how he got his start in the tattoo industry. Doan also shares his motivation for starting his non-profit organization, The Doan Foundation.
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SC027-110
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2023-03-06
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Dennis Doan
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Jennifer Ho
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Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Ethnic identity; Tattoo artists; Philanthropy
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San Diego (Calif.); Vietnam
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Dennis Doan
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Children of Refugees
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/455a10662771c3280ba9f49c86347341.pdf
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Doan, Dennis "Dizzy". Interview transcript, March 6, 2023
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Dennis "Dizzy" Doan is a Vietnamese American tattoo artist, writer and philanthropist in San Diego, California. In this interview, he speaks on his family and upbringing, as well as how he got his start in the tattoo industry. Doan also shares his motivation for starting his non-profit organization, The Doan Foundation.
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Dennis "Dizzy" Doan
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Melissa Martin
Jennifer Ho
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2023-03-06
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Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Ethnic identity; Tattoo artists; Philanthropy
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San Diego (Calif.); Vietnam
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a>
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Dennis Doan
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text
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DoanDennis_HoJennifer_2023-03-06_transcript
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Children of Refugees
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Jacob Peirce
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Lizbeth Ecke
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5.4 2022-04-13 Oral history of Lizbeth Ecke, April 13, 2022 SC027-12 00:52:05 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Businesswomen Encinitas (Calif.) Floriculture Interstate 5--California Poinsettias Lizbeth Ecke Jacob Peirce mp4 EckeLizbeth_PeirceJake_2022-04-13.mp4 1:|11(14)|17(11)|23(7)|33(15)|38(54)|40(105)|50(11)|51(68)|51(180)|55(7)|69(11)|74(5)|83(28)|90(58)|90(166)|103(13)|122(2)|128(15)|133(75)|143(7)|162(15)|168(12)|173(56)|173(155)|178(91)|178(233)|186(13)|192(51)|192(185)|195(13)|207(42)|211(37)|215(5)|226(51)|229(7)|238(16)|248(71)|248(188)|248(319)|256(6)|260(15)|267(9)|269(82)|279(3)|281(69)|300(2)|305(40)|305(171)|305(309)|305(433)|316(16)|322(1) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/20bc80c8465484930147a93d0aa89119.mp4 Other video English 30 Introduction / Growing up and childhood So, good evening. My name is Jacob Pierce. I am a first year graduate student at Cal State San Marcos in the history program. And this is part of a series documenting historical figures, impactful figures in North County, San Diego. Today I'm speaking with, Lizbeth Ecke. And, thank you for being here. Let's start real general, real broad. Can you tell me a little bit about your background? Where were you were born? Growing up, just general information like that. Lizbeth Ecke recounts her childhood experience growing up in Encinitas, CA where her family were important to the development of the small town beach city. In discussing her grandparents role in advocating for Downtown Encinitas, the local history of the small San Diego city and the push back that came with it is revealed. Childhood ; College ; Community ; Downtown Encinitas ; Encinitas ; Family legacy ; Farming ; Flower industry ; Grade school ; Highway ; San Diego ; Small town Downtown Encinitas and early development ; Growing up in Encinitas ; History of Encinitas ; Lizbeth Ecke's experience as a child growing up in the Ecke family ; Local history 33.0370° N, 117.2920° W 17 The general GPS coordinates of Encinitas, CA which is now known for its beautiful beaches and luxury resorts. 385 Inspiration as a woman in business Did you, speaking of your mother and your grandmother, what inspiration, if any, did you take from em’, in your personal life going forward as a professional woman, as someone who growing up in this family, did you take any lessons from them? And, and if so, how did you kind of, feel it, that you represented the family in that way? Lizbeth Ecke describes the work of her mother and grandmother in San Diego along with their accomplishments. Her deep dive into their history explains how she was inspired by their hard work. In addition to this, Lizbeth Ecke introduces the Poinsettia business that her family is well known for. Poinsettia business ; Professional woman ; San Diego State ; Solana Beach Presbyterian Church ; Tijuana ; Volunteer work ; Women in Encinitas Familial bonds ; Family ; Gender roles ; The Ecke family ; The endeavors of the Ecke women ; The experience of women in a family business ; Women in the Ecke family 32.7774° N, 117.0714° W 17 San Diego State University. Lizbeth Ecke mentions the university a few times as this was her mother's alma mater. 612 The Press focuses on the men / Supporting organizations Pierce: Most of the press that I was able to read, mostly focuses on the men, in your family. Was that frustrating for, < ; unintelligible> ; you can go ahead and answer if you got something. Ecke: Well, I mean, I don't know that I think that it's, pretty standard for a, certainly for my grandparent’s generation and for my parent’s generation. That’s what you did, even if a, a wife or whatever was very involved in a business, you generally look to the husband for, you know, and they were the person that got all the glory and that's just the way our society has been set up. In this generation my brother probably has had more publicity than I have just because he is the one that owned the Poinsettia Business. And so that naturally, I mean, he got a lot of press just from own owning the Poinsettia Business. He's also probably much more, comfortable in front of the camera because he's been doing it for so long. So, when we are both in a situation and somebody wants one of us to speak, I will defer to him. Lizbeth Ecke addresses why the Press focused on the men in her family over the women when highlighting her family's business. The conversation then pivots to focusing on her mother and grandmother again as she explores the organizations they chose to support and why. Business roles ; Family business ; Family roles ; Functions ; Spotlight ; Support Gender disparity in the Press ; Gender roles in family business ; Planned Parenthood ; Women supporting organizations ; YMCA 32.7157° N, 117.1611° W 17 970 Let's talk about Poinsettias Pierce: I never grew up in a family that had like any sort of a business or anything like that. My parents were teachers. But were you interested in horticulture at all? Were you interested in flower, like any sort of growing flowers? Ecke: So, it was, you know, and I had done a lot of work for, I worked in the tissue culture lab at the ranch. I worked in the greenhouses many summers. I, we, all three of us grew up there was never a family vacation that we took that we didn't go visit greenhouse customers wherever it was in the world. And when I had studied overseas in Mexico and in Germany, I've gone and visited flower customers on my own. So, I was involved with it. But I also knew that wasn't gonna be the career I was going to choose. I mean, and not that anybody said I couldn't, but you know, my grandfather's name was Paul Ecke Sr. In this portion, Lizbeth Ecke discusses her involvement and knowledge of horticulture. Her knowledge stems from her family business with the poinsettia's which led to her using her planting skills during her studies in Mexico and Germany. Even though she only has a minor in horticulture, paired with her degree in business she was able to really entrench herself in the family business. Lizbeth Ecke's expertise was useful on different board of directors which was a space mostly occupied by men. Bussiness ; Farming ; Flowers ; Germany ; Greenhouses ; Horticulture ; Mexico ; Paul Ecke Jr. ; Paul Ecke Sr. ; Paule Ecke III ; Plants ; Poinsettia ; Poinsettia Ranch American Forest Exchange ; Floral culture business ; Studying overseas ; Subject of studies ; Women working in horticulture 32.7157° N, 117.1611° W 17 San Diego, CA 1229 Experience on the board of directors Pierce: You've mentioned multiple arenas where you are on the board of directors or even the chairman of the board and stuff like that. Have you < ; affirmative> ; as a woman faced any pushback, any, any friction, from people when you take these kind of leadership positions? Ecke: Well, most of the things that I've been on, I would say, well, no, I mean, when I was first, went on to the, American Forest Exchange Board, I was the first, I wasn't the very first woman that had ever been on the board, but I was the first woman to be on the board for quite some time. And I would, I will say that it was probably for the other men then that were on the board. My father had just recently passed away and he had been chairman of the board. And then I, took over, I took his seat on the board. So I think that, and I was much younger than the majority of the men on the board that isn't necessarily the case now, but it was then, which is almost 20 years ago now. I think that they initially had, they didn't have an issue with me being on the board, but I think that they were kind of surprised that I had an opinion or, that I took issue with some of the things that they, wanted to do. Lizbeth Ecke recounts her experience when she became chairman of the American Forest Exchange after her father passed away. In comparison, her experience on the board for the YMCA was vastly different since women had occupied this space long before her. Lizbeth Ecke also recounts a time when she was younger working for her family's business where a customer was demanding to work with her father instead of her. American Forest Exchange ; board ; board of directors ; Chairman ; frustrated ; status-quo ; UCSD ; women ; YMCA AFE chairman ; American Forest Exchange ; San Diego local history ; Women in business ; Women's experience in male dominated spaces 1807 Missing old Encinitas Pierce: How has it been watching it grow over the years? Do you miss old Encinitas somewhat? Do you, you wish that things were a little bit different? Do you, do you just enjoy seeing time and things progress? Like what, what is your viewpoint on that? Ecke: Well, yeah, I mean, if, if Encinitas could be the Encinitas that I grew up in, I thought that that was fabulous. If I was really living in that would, I think is, is as fabulous, you know, you get nostalgic about things. But I could, when I was growing up and I had my horse, I could ride my horse down Encinitas Blvd. all the way to the beach and ride my horse on the beach with my other friends who had horses. And, it was you-- < ; unintelligible> ; So, I mean, there's things like that, that I'm nostalgic for. But places change. I mean, you can't expect things to not change. And, for the most part, I think that the way Encinitas has changed is pretty good given, you know, the options. I mean, there wasn't, there isn't a way that Encinitas was gonna stay the way that it was, but it was a lovely place to grow up. Lizbeth Ecke recounts her experience growing up in Encinitas prior to its current development. Despite her nostalgia, Lizbeth Ecke has fond memories of Encinitas but appreciates how far along the city has come. She also gives more background on how she grew up in the city as well as her siblings and the lasting effect Encinitas had on them all. Community ; Community Resource Center ; Downtown Encinitas ; Encintas Blvd. ; Horse ; Leucadia Blvd. ; Nostalgic ; Riverside ; road ; San Digueto ; Shepards ; YMCA Community ; Developing Encinitas ; Development in Encinitas ; Growing up in Encinitas ; Old Encinitas ; Small town 33.0370° N, 117.2920° W 17 Encinitas, CA 2116 The Ecke Legacy in Encinitas / Going Forward Pierce: Absolutely, absolutely. We, we appreciate it. Not that I'm, I have a particular hand in it, but at the same time I, you know, as a, as a budding historian, I do appreciate < ; affirmative> ; people putting their things in the, in archives. Is it, I'm trying to figure out how I can word this… right. When you, when you've spoken about like how your grandfather advocated for the, the, the I-5 going where it, it goes and, and your father was, was, a, a large part of, of the, the beginnings of Cal State San Marcos, right? Is it, do you ever sit and think like, oh wow. Like my family has really impacted this, this area in, in many ways, like, you'd sit, be like, wow, like this is here in part because of the way that my family has kind of shaped the area. Do you ever think about that and how it like, is that an interesting thought to you or is that never occurred? The interviewer, Jacob Pierce asks about the Ecke family's direct influence on the I-5 and Downtown Influence. Lizbeth Ecke then answers and goes into more detail about her siblings and their history growing up in Encinitas. Cal State San Marcos ; charity ; community ; community resource center ; difference ; Downtown Encinitas ; Ecke ; Encinitas ; family ; foundation ; I-5 ; name ; park ; press ; YMCA Family influences ; Longstanding presence in the community ; Making a difference ; Sense of community ; The development of Downtown Encinitas 33.0370° N, 117.2920° W 17 Encinitas, CA 2584 Proudest achievement / Closing comments Pierce: Absolutely. Absolutely. What would you say has been, your proudest accomplishment? Whether it's in North County or just in general, what, what are you most proud of and in your career, in your life in general? Ecke: Well, I mean the most obvious answer would be my children. I mean, I've raised two children that are self-sufficient and, you know, both graduated from college. My son's getting his PhD now and, you know, they're supporting themselves and that in of itself is an accomplishment as a parent. I don't, I don't know that-- Ecke: There is a given thing that I could say that I would point to. I know I'm happy that I have been able to be part of the family business in a relevant way. It was something that was very important to my mother because she didn't always feel seen. And so she fought very hard for my sister and myself to be seen and to be heard. And I think it was, something that she was very proud of when, she had daughters that were involved and had a say in what was happening. And so I feel accomplished that I fulfilled something that was important to my mother. As the interview wraps up, Lizbeth Ecke recalls her personal accomplishments as well as her family's. Considering the Ecke influence in Encinitas and San Diego as a whole, she goes into more detail about the papers her parents and grandparents left behind. Although it consists of receipts and lists these small details are important for historical purposes. Lizbeth Ecke also goes further into the process of what the Ecke papers consist of and donating them to Cal State San Marcos. Achievements ; children ; Ecke papers ; family business ; important ; mother ; papers ; proud ; ranch Documenting history ; Family papers ; Pride in their accomplishments ; The legacy of the Ecke family 29.8833° N, 97.9414° W 17 San Marcos, CA Oral History Narrator Lizbeth Ecke is the daughter of San Diego horticulturist Paul Ecke Jr., who contributed to the popularity of the poinsettia plant. Lizbeth Ecke also is on the board for the YMCA and the American Forest Exchange. In this interview, Lizbeth discusses her childhood growing up in Encinitas, CA and working alongside her father in the flower business, and her experience as a women working in a male dominated industry in comparison to her father and brother. Peirce: My name is Jacob Peirce. I am a first year graduate student at Cal State San Marcos in the history program. And this is part of a series documenting historical figures, impactful figures in North County, San Diego. Today I' ; m speaking with, Lizbeth Ecke. And, thank you for being here. Let' ; s start real general, real broad. Can you tell me a little bit about your background? Where were you were born? Growing up, just general information like that. Ecke: I was born here in San Diego, born raised in Encinitas hold, < ; cough> ; pardon me. I grew up in the same house that my father grew up in. I went to the same elementary school and high school that my father went to. So I was friends with the children of the, some of the people that my father went to high school with. So pretty entrenched in Encinitas, California. I did move away for college and work for about 13 years, but other than that, I pretty much lived in Encinitas my entire life. Peirce: That' ; s awesome. And you said that you went to the same the same school, you lived in the same house and your family was pretty established at that point within the community. Was it difficult growing up with the kind of expectations, of being in your family like that? Ecke: There may have been individual instances, but no, not really. I mean, Encinitas was still a pretty small town when, I was growing up. I mean, Interstate 5 didn' ; t even go through till I was about 11 years old. Most people were in flower farming like our family was. And, so I mean, people probably knew my name without knowing me, but, and that probably ended up mostly being good. But, so no, I mean I would say later on there have been challenging times when we, as a family have wanted to do things and we' ; ve gotten a lot of bad press. I mean, I know that my mother and grandmother, had a harder time than I ever remember having. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: Dealing with, harder in the sense of, people being rude to them or mean, or those kinds of things. But I can' ; t say that I remember much of any of that. Peirce: Was there specific reasons for that treatment that they received? Do you remember them saying anything about that? Ecke: About, well, I know that there was a newspaper in town called The Coast Dispatch, that the man who owned it really, he didn' ; t like our family. And I mean, I' ; ve heard various stories about why he didn' ; t, the one that seems to have made the most sense to me, but I don' ; t really know whether it' ; s the real reason or not is because he owned a lot of, real estate right in Downtown Encinitas. And when they were putting through I-5, the original plan was to just run it along, down the coast highway. And, as it ended up being in some other, places farther north of here, and my grandfather was one of the people who fought pretty hard to say, let' ; s not destroy all of the downtowns of all of these, you know, Carlsbad and Solana Beach and Del Mar and Encinitas. Let' ; s put it inland a little ways and keep our downtowns. And my grandfather was on the winning side of that. I mean, it wasn' ; t because my grandfather or grandparents owned any land, particularly in the right of way of where I-5 ended up. They just, he just thought it was made more sense. So he fought for that and again, was on the winning side. And so the guy who owned The Coast Dispatch was pissed off because he was expecting to make all this money from selling all of his right of way in Downtown Encinitas. There may have been other reasons that maybe that, you know, he was a powerful man in town. My grandfather was a powerful man in town and they maybe just didn' ; t like each other, I don' ; t know. But, you know, I know that my grandmother, was treated poorly at times, by people that, you know, she was somebody who really cared about and, tried to be helpful. And, you know, people that during the depression that needed food, bringing food to the school and doing things like that, and there was any number of people that didn' ; t want her help because she was an Ecke and that was painful for her. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. I can imagine like that' ; s a wild thing to think about. Did you, speaking of your mother and your grandmother, what inspiration, if any, did you take from [th]em, in your personal life going forward as a professional woman, as someone who growing up in this family, did you take any lessons from them? And, and if so, how did you kind of, feel it, that you represented the family in that way? Ecke: Well, you know, my grandmother got married at 19 and had her first kid at 20, so she didn' ; t ever, she didn' ; t have anything more than a high school education. My mother did go to San Diego State and, did have a degree. But both of them, along with, my father, maybe a little less, my grandfather was very big < ; unintelligible> ; [into] giving back. And it was always something that my parents talked about, but they also, they didn' ; t just talk about it. They did it. And they, my grandmother was very involved with the Solana Beach Presbyterian Church and did a lot out of help through that, there was an orphanage down in Tijuana that she was, very supportive of. And I remember her when I was a child, her loading up her car and barreling on down to Tijuana to bring them whatever it was that she had in her car that week or month or whatever it was. My mother was very, was involved in lot of things. She was always on the PTA. We were all in 4H growing up and she was a 4H leader. She volunteered for children' ; s hospital. She later on when us kids weren' ; t at home or were, you know, didn' ; t need as much attention all the time she was involved with Planned Parenthood, she was a huge Planned Parenthood supporter. She, I' ; m trying to think of the other, Neurosciences Institute. I think it was called G < ; unintelligible> ; I can' ; t remember the name of it, but she was constantly involved with lots of different organizations, voices for children. She was very involved with San Diego State, which is where she went to school with the library at San Diego State. So I think that what I took away from that was that, it' ; s important to give back and everybody can give back, but if you are somebody of, means and, are known within your community, it' ; s even more important to, to give back that that' ; s a commitment, an obligation really. And, I heard about it growing up and I saw it growing up. And so that' ; s probably what I took from it more than, I mean, took from them more than anything was that they didn' ; t just talk the talk, they walked the walk. Peirce: Yeah. I was about to, I was about to ask you about the, whether that was something that was, verbally taught to you. Like, if it was like, " ; Hey, this is what we do," ; or you just kind of learn from example in regards to that, but you kind of, you kind of answered that. Ecke: Yeah. Peirce: Most of the press that I was able to read, mostly focuses on the men, in your family. Was that frustrating for, < ; unintelligible> ; you can go ahead and answer if you got something. Ecke: Well, I mean, I don' ; t know that I think that it' ; s, pretty standard for a, certainly for my grandparent' ; s generation and for my parent' ; s generation. That' ; s what you did, even if a, a wife or whatever was very involved in a business, you generally look to the husband for, you know, and they were the person that got all the glory and that' ; s just the way our society has been set up. In this generation my brother probably has had more publicity than I have just because he is the one that owned the Poinsettia Business. And so that naturally, I mean, he got a lot of press just from own owning the Poinsettia Business. He' ; s also probably much more, comfortable in front of the camera because he' ; s been doing it for so long. So, when we are both in a situation and somebody wants one of us to speak, I will defer to him.So, so that to some degree would be my fault, for not taking the spotlight when I could all the time. But yes, I mean, I think that just as a woman in society, it is sometimes frustrating, to have grown up and seen all the work that my grandmother and my mother did for the family business. And when you talk about the family business, you don' ; t really hear much about them. I mean, some of that' ; s getting righted a little bit, now, but it' ; s certainly they didn' ; t ever get any, any < ; unintelligible> ; whatever they, nobody called them out as doing great things when they were doing them. Peirce: Absolutely, absolutely. Which is, which is a shame, honestly. < ; Unintelligible> ; I guess kind of where I want to go with that though, you brought up some of the functions that your grandmother and your mother and that you have supported. Right? How do you decide what to support? Is there any-- is it really up to you? What you support? Do you speak to people in the family just to make sure that the family name is doing kind of-- is there like any collaboration or is it, whatever you decide to kind of support at that time? Ecke: No, I think that, I mean, I, I haven' ; t ever felt like if there was something that I wanted to support that anybody had any issue with it. I mean, maybe just being part of the family, there is a sense of, I suppose if I ever thought that there was something I wanted to get involved with that might create a problem, I would probably have a conversation. My brother and sister and I are pretty close and have good relationships. So, I wouldn' ; t expect that any of us would get involved with something that we thought how had an edge to it without first, at least, telling others. But you know, what I' ; ve been involved with has changed over the years when my kids were school age, I was very involved with their schools. I have, you know, I' ; m involved with, YMCA a that' ; s named after my grandmother. I was involved with it a number of years ago. And there, if you read anything about me, it' ; s probably how I got myself kicked off of the board, but, < ; laugh> ; the man that was running the, San Diego, the corporate Y for San Diego, he, didn' ; t renew his contract and now there' ; s somebody new. So then, so now I' ; m back on the board. < ; laugh> ; , I' ; m all, I mean, I also am very supportive of Planned Parenthood, not to the degree my mother was, my mother was on the board. That might be something I' ; d be willing to do down the road. So I think that, that what I' ; m involved with evolves as whatever else is happening in my life or around me. Peirce: Absolutely. And then that makes sense, right? Like, you know, you' ; re not, it' ; s not like you give, give a dollar one day and then you' ; re just, you' ; re guaranteed to give it the rest of your time. Right. It really kind of focuses as your, as your life moves from place to place < ; affirmative> ; and from stage to stage, you know, as I, you know, I' ; m a new dad, I never would' ; ve thought about all the things I do with my kid and donating and doing stuff for that kind of stuff that prior to having him right. Every stage, it kind of takes you to a different-- Ecke: Well, this isn' ; t, it isn' ; t in your field of vision. Peirce: Absolutely. And that' ; s understandable. Right. We only can see here to here. Right. We can' ; t see the full picture unless you' ; re in it sometimes. Do you mind if I pivot to, to the Poinsettias? I just have a few questions on that. Ecke: Absolutely. Peirce: I never grew up in a family that had like any sort of a business or anything like that. My parents were teachers. But were you interested in horticulture at all? Were you interested in flower, like any sort of growing flowers? Ecke: Well, yeah. I mean, the house that I grew up in it was right in the middle of the Poinsettia [fields]. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: So it was, you know, and I had done a lot of work for, I worked in the tissue culture lab at the ranch. I worked in the greenhouses many summers. I, we, all three of us grew up there was never a family vacation that we took that we didn' ; t go visit greenhouse customers where ever it was in the world. And, when I had studied overseas in Mexico and in Germany, I' ; ve gone and visited flower customers on my own. So I was involved with it. But I also knew that wasn' ; t gonna be the career I was going to choose. I mean, and not that anybody said I couldn' ; t, but, you know, my grandfather' ; s name was Paul Ecke Sr. My father was Paul Ecke Jr. and my brother' ; s Pauly III and my name isn' ; t Paul < ; laugh> ; . So, and that being said, my sister and I were had ownership interest in the ranch as much as my brother did, but we also made a determination, I don' ; t know, 30 years ago or more that, the ranch really needs to have a singular head of it, it was not a businesses that was gonna get managed very well with a, you know, three people trying to do it. So we sold our interest to my brother and that made sense. I was on the board of directors for the ranch, so I was still involved. And my brother and I, I mean, any time my brother had big decisions to make, he would talk to me. So I may have not had my name on the company, but I did feel very involved with it. And you know there' ; s a Los Angeles flower market where we would sell poinsettias every year. And I did that as did my brother and my sister and now I' ; m chairman of the board of that flower market. And so I had been involved in the flower business pretty much all my life, one way or another, I wasn' ; t the face of the Poinsettia Ranch. Peirce: But you enjoyed working with the flowers you enjoyed working with your hands? Ecke: Oh yeah, no, absolutely. You know, and now we, as a family have the flower fields in Carlsbad. So I' ; m still, involved with, well, not growing the flowers, but involved with the floral culture business, and being on the board of the American Forest Exchange. I am attuned to what' ; s going on within that part of the sector of the world and I like it and I always have. Peirce: Awesome, awesome. I can' ; t even keep plants alive in my own house, so that just having an entire farm stresses me out just the thought of it. Ecke: < ; laugh> ; Oh, well, I' ; ve never run a farm. So that, that-- Peirce: Yeah, that' ; s fair. That' ; s fair. < ; laugh> ; Ecke: I do, I did have a minor in horticulture in undergraduate school, but that was, as far as I went with that. Peirce: What was your major, if you don' ; t mind me asking? Ecke: It was business. Peirce: Business. Ecke: And then I got an MBA in real estate and finance, so-- Peirce: Absolutely. You' ; ve mentioned multiple arenas where you are on the board of directors or even the chairman of the board and stuff like that. Have you as a woman faced any pushback, any friction from people when you take these kind of leadership positions? Ecke: Well, most of the things that I' ; ve been on, I would say, well, no, I mean, when I was first, went on to the, American Forest Exchange Board, I was the first, I wasn' ; t the very first woman that had ever been on the board, but I was the first woman to be on the board for quite some time. And I would, I will say that it was probably for the other men then that were on the board. My father had just recently passed away and he had been chairman of the board. And then I, took over, I took his seat on the board. So I think that, and I was much younger than the majority of the men on the board that isn' ; t necessarily the case now, but it was then, which is almost 20 years ago now. I think that they initially had, they didn' ; t have an issue with me being on the board, but I think that they were kind of surprised that I had an opinion or, that I took issue with some of the things that they, wanted to do. Or so I wouldn' ; t see, say that I ever felt like they were trying to figure out a way to get me off the board, but I do think that there were some times when they were frustrated that I wasn' ; t just playing along with whatever they wanted to do. Other boards that I' ; m on the YMCA board there' ; s been women on that board long before I was ever on it. And, so I never felt anything there. We have a family foundation board, that my aunt has been on for as long as I can remember. And, and I' ; ve been on it for 40 years. So really no, I mean where I had a lot of pushback when I was first came back and worked for the family, I was doing a lot of leasing and tenant improvement work and construction management. And this was back in the eighties, late eighties. And there were a lot of construction guys that really were not very excited about taking orders from, you know, a short woman or probably a woman in general, but then this little, tiny person with a high squeaky voice, I can' ; t < ; unintelligible> ; anybody absolutely wouldn' ; t do what I asked them to do. It may have just taken me be more forceful than I needed to be. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: To do that. But you know, my father was to his credit. He really promoted, my sister and myself to do whatever we wanted to, to do. And, when I, I remember one time when I was probably 15 working up in Los Angeles at the flower market over Christmas, [be]cause that' ; s the only time we would' ; ve been up there with the poinsettias. And my father put me a in charge of the phone orders. And so I remember, some big customer called and asked for my father and my father said, no, I don' ; t have time, you just deal with them. And I went back and the conversation kind of went on. And then he finally said, I want to speak with a real Ecke. And so, I then went out, I mean, [be]cause again I' ; m 14 or 15 years old and I go back out and I said, dad, he says, he' ; ll only place this order with a real Ecke. And my father said, you go back in there and said, tell him if he wants to buy poinsettias he is going to buy them from you. And he' ; s gonna give the order to you. And you are just as real of an Ecke as anybody else. And so I went back in there and told the guy and he was none too happy, but he did give me the order. So my father did things like that really, he may not have believed that when he was 20 years old. But I think that my mother did a very good job of convincing him and teaching him that he should be paying attention to his daughters as much as his son. And he did credit her with that. He would be the first one to say that he had a good relationship with his daughters because my mother taught him how to do that. Peirce: That' ; s amazing. That' ; s really awesome. Especially that, that kind of support, that young, how, how, early did you become, involved in the, in the family business? Like from as long as you can remember, or--? Ecke: Oh, I, well, I mean actually working, getting a paycheck was, you know, probably fifteen dollars. But even before that, when we were little again, our house was right there, the middle of the ranch and we' ; d go out and my father would put me to work, you know, folding, putting together pieces of different pieces of paper and stapling them and folding them to go in boxes of poinsettias that were being shipped out mostly as a way to keep me busy and out of other people' ; s way. But I mean, I was probably doing that from the time I was seven or eight years old, or he would pay us, like a penny to pick up trash, to walk around the whole ranch and pick up trash and he would pay us, I dunno,, 10 cents an hour or something ridiculous to do that. But, so always my parents were big believers in working and knowing the value of money. And my mother had grown up in a fairly poor family. Her family had moved out to California when she was 15 and lived in, government subsidized housing where UCSD [University of California San Diego] is now, they' ; d moved because my grandmother, I knew that she had, she knew, wanted her children to go to college and California back then had, still does have, a good college system, but it was virtually free. And, you know, my mother had two brothers and a sister and, you know, she went to San Diego State. She had one brother that became a doctor and another brother that became a veterinarian. And they all benefited from the school systems in, in San Diego, but that' ; s why they moved. And my mother worked a lot from whenever. I mean, from the time she could remember, so she went, they lived through being homeless during the depression and other things. So my mother brought that to the table for us in the sense of understanding that you can' ; t be wasteful, you need to think about, you know, how you spend your money. And my parents were on the same page with all of that you know, just because you have money doesn' ; t mean that you need to flaunt it or that you have to spend it all just because you have it. And it, you know, there' ; s other people that might need it more than you do, and it' ; s your responsibility to help out with that. So I feel like I got, fairly grounded in the understanding of that. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. You, you' ; ve spoken a couple times about, growing up directly on, on the ranch < ; affirmative> ; and when you were a kid, I' ; m assuming that, Encinitas was a little bit more rural than it is now, not rural, but just less developed. Ecke: Yeah. Peirce: How has it been watching it grow over the years? Do you miss old Encinitas somewhat? Do you, you wish that things were a little bit different? Do you, do you just enjoy seeing time and things progress? Like what, what is your viewpoint on that? Ecke: Well, yeah, I mean, if, if Encinitas could be the Encinitas that I grew up in, I thought that that was fabulous. If I was really living in that would, I think is, is as fabulous, you know, you get nostalgic about things. But I could, when I was growing up and I had my horse, I could ride my horse down Encinitas Blvd. all the way to the beach and ride my horse on the beach with my other friends who had horses. And, it was you-- < ; unintelligible> ; So, I mean, there' ; s things like that, that I' ; m nostalgic for. But places change. I mean, you can' ; t expect things to not change. And, for the most part, I think that the way Encinitas has changed is pretty good given, you know, the options. I mean, there wasn' ; t, there isn' ; t a way that Encinitas was gonna stay the way that it was, but it was a lovely place to grow up. I mean, I, again, I knew there was like two elementary schools and, you know, one high school. And when I went, graduated from high school, there was only one high school from Del Mar to through Encinitas. So we, all went to San Dieguito together. My high school graduating class in 1975 was the last year that we were together, [be]cause then Torrey Pines was built and they opened up Torrey Pines [High School]. So, I mean it was, it was a very close-knit community. And it was, you know, nice to know you go into a grocery store, the drug store and you know, it' ; s, somebody' ; s father that' ; s there or, you know, < ; affirmative> ; and that, that was a nice thing. And I, and I do miss that, but I suppose if that was super important to me, I could go find some other very small community that I could have that. Peirce: No, absolutely. I, I mean, I grew up in, I grew up in Riverside and in the, the eighties and nineties and I still remember driving to, to school and, running into, into, shepherds herding sheep across the road. And now every single part of that is, is track housing that they built that are, you know, the cookie cutter houses and, you know, you can get nostalgic for it, but I, I can completely understand like you, you do what you do, what, what you can with what it is. People need to live. People need houses and people need to, things grow and things change, but it was just interesting to, you know, you you' ; ve been living in that, you lived in that same house as your, as your, as your father and everything. And it' ; s just like, you know, having it grow around that is, is a interesting perspective for sure. Ecke: Definitely, it definitely is. I mean, it' ; s, it' ; s weird because now I live in that, well, we' ; ve redone the house, but I live in what was my grandparents' ; house that my grandparents built when my parents got married, they built a house and moved into the house. And then my parents moved into the house that my father grew up in. So I now live in the location, not the house anymore because we did rebuild it about 15 years ago, but to where my grandparents lived and, and it was a very different place then, because when I was growing up from my grandparents' ; house, they were half a mile off of any public road in fact when I moved into this house 30 years ago, we were still Leucadia Boulevard, didn' ; t go through. And so I was a half a mile off of any paved road. And, there the view, they had a view to the west, which we still have and a view to the east and there was nothing to the east, nothing at all. I mean, there was one light that you could see out there. And I remember that when I was a kid and now that' ; s all houses. And just, you know, my father, this is totally a, a side note, but my father was also very involved with Cal[ifornia] State [University] San Marcos and getting it started and was very enthusiastic about it, which is, part of the reason that, my brother and I decided that that' ; s what the family papers should, should go. It was, it kind of made sense because we had that connection. Peirce: Absolutely, absolutely. We, we appreciate it. Not that I' ; m, I have a particular hand in it, but at the same time I, you know, as a, as a budding historian, I do appreciate < ; affirmative> ; people putting their things in the, in archives. Is it, I' ; m trying to figure out how I can word this-- right. When you, when you' ; ve spoken about like how your grandfather advocated for the, the, the I-5 going where it, it goes and, and your father was, was, a, a large part of, of the, the beginnings of Cal State San Marcos, right? Is it, do you ever sit and think like, oh wow. Like my family has really impacted this, this area in, in many ways, like, you' ; d sit, be like, wow, like this is here in part because of the way that my family has kind of shaped the area. Do you ever think about that and how it like, is that an interesting thought to you or is that never occurred? Ecke: Yeah, it, no, it is. And I mean, it' ; s something generally. I mean, I would say it' ; s a sense of pride to know that, that the, our, we didn' ; t, we as a family, didn' ; t just come here and do what we did without wanting to better our community and be involved in our community. I mean, I know that my parents and grandparents, when Encinitas was super tiny when they were here, they, there wasn' ; t anything for anybody to do after work. I mean, there just wasn' ; t anything here. So they figure out how to build a bowling alley in, in Downtown Encinitas. So people had a place to go versus I guess, just going to a bar or something. I mean that there was someplace something else to do. And, those kinds of things, I mean, there' ; s nothing that there' ; s no rules or laws or anything that says that you have to do that, but if you' ; re gonna be part of a community, it' ; s nice to know that your family helped build that community. So it, yeah, it is something that I think about, at times when, you know, there' ; s, and there' ; s enough things named after our family, there' ; s a park in Encinitas. And then there' ; s the YMCA and there' ; s various other things that, remind me and maybe the community of what we' ; ve done. I would say that it is very different now than it was even 20 years ago. I mean, 20 years ago, I could, if I said my name was Ecke, pretty much anybody in Encinitas would' ; ve heard the name, they would, I mean, they might not know anything, but they would' ; ve heard the name. And, that isn' ; t necessarily the case now, and that' ; s not a bad thing, but it is, we are a much, larger and diverse community now. So, our family doesn' ; t play the same kind of role as it used to. I mean, we still are very supportive of the community and we have a family foundation and most of the money, it' ; s not a huge found[ation], but most of the money that comes out of that does get invested in, local charities, things like the YMCA or the community resource center or things like that. So we still are very involved, but again, because the community has grown so much, we' ; re just not as big a, a part of it, which that' ; s a good thing, [be]cause there' ; s a lot more people out there that are also being supportive of things that need to be supported. Peirce: Absolutely. Given, your longstanding, presence in the community, as people have come in, have you. worked with other people who have tried to make a difference in the community? Have you tried to foster those kinds of, any sort of other, like, charitable services or anything like that? Has anyone come to you and been like, how do I start this? How do I do this and kinda look to you and have, have you mentored anyone in that regard? Ecke: No, I don' ; t think that I could say that I' ; ve done that. And I don' ; t think that I would certainly know how to tell anybody to start something. I mean, I' ; ve been involved with any number of things, like the Community Resource Center and the YMCA and grower school and any number of things. And so I' ; ve met a lot of other people within the community and I mean, the people that tend to volunteer and give money is just like almost anything in life. You' ; ve got, you know, 20% of the people doing 80% of the work or giving or whatever. I mean, it is, you see the same people over and over again. Peirce: Absolutely. What else do you, where do you see your role in the family moving forward? Where do you see your family moving forward in the community, given that you' ; ve said that it, as the community has grown, you' ; ve kind of, do you still see your family as a vital part of the community you have going forward? Ecke: No, definitely. My brother lives in Encinitas. I live in Encinitas, you know, we both raised our families in Encinitas. My sister lives in North Carolina, and we both still work in the family business. And I don' ; t see that really changing at some point in the future. Some of the kids, my kids, my brother' ; s kids, my sister' ; s kids may wanna come back and be part of the family business. At some points somebody' ; s gonna have to take over things from our, my generation of, people, but pretty much all of those in their twenties. So they' ; re still figuring out what to do with their lives. But, I mean, my father was involved with in the community and pretty much until the day he died and my mother until her Alzheimer' ; s got too bad, was involved with the community. So I never saw my parents just say, okay, I' ; m done now. And I' ; m gonna, you know, go just have fun all day every day and not be involved with my community. So, and my husband grew up in a similar type of in environment. So I don' ; t see us just, you know, retiring and doing, not being involved. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. What would you say has been, your proudest accomplishment? Whether it' ; s in North County or just in general, what, what are you most proud of and in your career, in your life in general? Ecke: Well, I mean the most obvious answer would be my children. I mean, I' ; ve raised two children that are self-sufficient and, you know, both graduated from college. My son' ; s getting his PhD now and, you know, they' ; re supporting themselves and that in of itself is an accomplishment as a parent. I don' ; t, I don' ; t know that-- There is a given thing that I could say that I would point to. I know I' ; m happy that I have been able to be part of the family business in a relevant way. It was something that was very important to my mother because she didn' ; t always feel seen. And so she fought very hard for my sister and myself to be seen and to be heard. And I think it was, something that she was very proud of when, she had daughters that were involved and had a say in what was happening. And so I feel accomplished that I fulfilled something that was important to my mother. Peirce: Absolutely. Ecke: But I don' ; t know that there' ; s a specific, or that I can think of a specific thing that I' ; ve fought for and won on or something. Peirce: I mean it is a difficult question unless you clambered up Everest or something, it' ; s like, well, you know, like I was just curious if there was anything specifically, you' ; re like, oh yeah. You know, like, I won the World Cup or something, but you know what I mean? Ecke: No, none of those things. Peirce: Same here, so it' ; s, yeah. I had one question I did have about the papers that you donated. Was it important for you and your family to have someplace, public for repository of that nature? Or what was, what was the reasoning behind that and why was that important to you guys? Ecke: Well, my mother was a big history buff. That probably was part of it, but-- It just, there was a hundred years of history of our family. Because you know, my grandfather, my grandparents first came down here in the early 1920s, and bought land. And Encinitas was basically a railroad station at that time. And was really one of the founding families. And there was, lots of records because we lived on the ranch, and we had all these various barns and buildings. I don' ; t think much of anything ever got thrown away because you didn' ; t have to throw it away. So there are, you know, receipt books and things from back in 1926, you know, and, I will say that my brother did a yeoman' ; s job when, after he had sold the ranch property and sold the business, he spent a year going through all of those records and consolidating and organizing, a hundred year' ; s worth of stuff. And that was a huge job. And during that time we talked about, well, okay. I mean, it didn' ; t seem right to just throw it away. I mean, but what do you do with it? I mean, that is really the question of what are the choices. So, we talked to various people there and I should remember his name, somebody who is a history professor there at Cal State San Marcos that was also on the board of the, historical society here in Encinitas. And we met with him, and I think it may have been his suggestion that we go and talk to the librarian out there. The other thing that we thought about was, San Diego State, because we had a connection there with my mother, my father went to Ohio state, so that wasn' ; t gonna make sense. I mean, but, you know, Cal State San Marco was here and in North County and we had a connection with it. And so that seemed to make the most sense because it just didn' ; t feel right to just go rent a warehouse and put it in there who was ever gonna do anything with it. And, you know, I think that there is a wealth of knowledge in history, even if it' ; s just mundane things that, you know, receipt books from back in 1926, and you can see what a bag of flower cost or whatever. I mean, you' ; re a historian. And then those are the kinds of things that people can look back on and get real information about what life was like. And you know Cal State San Marcos was the one that was really venturing into new territory because they didn' ; t have any, we were kind of the first one. We were all kinda learning together as to what this meant. I mean, we didn' ; t, I mean, we knew that families gave papers to various learning institutions. I didn' ; t ever know anybody personally who had, or, you know, what, like that really meant. So it' ; s been a cool learning experience. Peirce: Oh, absolutely. As, like the idea of you were saying, like, we didn' ; t know what to do with it. I was just like, in my head, I' ; m like, please don' ; t throw it away, even though I know you didn' ; t, like, I was just like, don' ; t do it. < ; laugh> ; Well, as we wrap up here, is there anything about you, your life, your family, that you feel like I, we haven' ; t touched on that you kind of wanna talk about today? Ecke: I don' ; t know. There probably is, but nothing that is, jumping, to mind right now. Yeah, I mean, it' ; s been a fun ride. I don' ; t think it' ; s over. I feel very privileged to have been part of, or to be part of this family. it' ; s nice to have history and grounding within a community. Again, my husband' ; s family' ; s from New Orleans and he' ; s like third generation on one side and five generations on the other side. So, he has a similar feeling and it' ; s, there is something very grounding about being a part of someplace. And I feel very privileged to be part of Encinitas, [be]cause I do feel like I have a lot of invested in it and I guess has a lot invested in me and that' ; s, that' ; s been nice. Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. I don' ; t, I don' ; t think we could end know a better note than that. Lizbeth Ecke, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for giving us your perspective about your family and giving it to this project. My name is Jake Peirce and we are signing off now. Ecke: Great. 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Title
A name given to the resource
Ecke, Lizbeth. Interview April 13, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
Narrator Lizbeth Ecke is the daughter of San Diego horticulturist Paul Ecke Jr., who contributed to the popularity of the poinsettia plant. Lizbeth Ecke also is on the board for the YMCA and the American Forest Exchange. In this interview, Lizbeth discusses her childhood growing up in Encinitas, CA and working alongside her father in the flower business, and her experience as a women working in a male dominated industry in comparison to her father and brother.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-12
Subject
The topic of the resource
Businesswomen
Floriculture
Interstate 5 -- California
Poinsettias
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-04-13
Format
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video
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lizbeth Ecke
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jacob Peirce
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Encinitas (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Lizbeth Ecke
Community history
History Department internship
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/ca6f54f3772da765d27df005f357db44.pdf
e3319aac7d71629d4dc452c92d58367b
PDF Text
Text
LIZBETH ECKE
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-04-13
Peirce: Well, I would hope so. Otherwise, this whole thing is caput <laugh>. Okay. <laugh> So, good
evening. My name is Jacob Peirce. I am a first year graduate student at Cal State San Marcos in the
history program. And this is part of a series documenting historical figures, impactful figures in North
County, San Diego. Today I'm speaking with, Lizbeth Ecke. And, thank you for being here. Let's start real
general, real broad. Can you tell me a little bit about your background? Where were you were born?
Growing up, just general information like that.
Ecke: I was born here in San Diego, born raised in Encinitas hold, <cough> pardon me. I grew up in the
same house that my father grew up in. I went to the same elementary school and high school that my
father went to. So I was friends with the children of the, some of the people that my father went to high
school with. So pretty entrenched in Encinitas, California. I did move away for college and work for
about 13 years, but other than that, I pretty much lived in Encinitas my entire life.
Peirce: That's awesome. And you said that you went to the same the same school, you lived in the same
house and your family was pretty established at that point within the community. Was it difficult
growing up with the kind of expectations, of being in your family like that?
Ecke: There may have been individual instances, but no, not really. I mean, Encinitas was still a pretty
small town when, I was growing up. I mean, Interstate 5 didn't even go through till I was about 11 years
old. Most people were in flower farming like our family was. And, so I mean, people probably knew my
name without knowing me, but, and that probably ended up mostly being good. But, so no, I mean I
would say later on there have been challenging times when we, as a family have wanted to do things
and we've gotten a lot of bad press. I mean, I know that my mother and grandmother, had a harder time
than I ever remember having.
Peirce: Absolutely.
Ecke: Dealing with, harder in the sense of, people being rude to them or mean, or those kinds of things.
But I can't say that I remember much of any of that.
Peirce: Was there specific reasons for that treatment that they received? Do you remember them saying
anything about that?
Ecke: About, well, I know that there was a newspaper in town called The Coast Dispatch, that the man
who owned it really, he didn't like our family. And I mean, I've heard various stories about why he didn't,
the one that seems to have made the most sense to me, but I don't really know whether it's the real
reason or not is because he owned a lot of, real estate right in Downtown Encinitas. And when they
were putting through I-5, the original plan was to just run it along, down the coast highway. And, as it
ended up being in some other, places farther north of here, and my grandfather was one of the people
who fought pretty hard to say, let's not destroy all of the downtowns of all of these, you know, Carlsbad
and Solana Beach and Del Mar and Encinitas. Let's put it inland a little ways and keep our downtowns.
And my grandfather was on the winning side of that. I mean, it wasn't because my grandfather or
grandparents owned any land, particularly in the right of way of where I-5 ended up. They just, he just
thought it was made more sense. So he fought for that and again, was on the winning side. And so the
guy who owned The Coast Dispatch was pissed off because he was expecting to make all this money
from selling all of his right of way in Downtown Encinitas. There may have been other reasons that
maybe that, you know, he was a powerful man in town. My grandfather was a powerful man in town
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�LIZBETH ECKE
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-04-13
and they maybe just didn't like each other, I don't know. But, you know, I know that my grandmother,
was treated poorly at times, by people that, you know, she was somebody who really cared about and,
tried to be helpful. And, you know, people that during the depression that needed food, bringing food to
the school and doing things like that, and there was any number of people that didn't want her help
because she was an Ecke and that was painful for her.
Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. I can imagine like that's a wild thing to think about. Did you, speaking of
your mother and your grandmother, what inspiration, if any, did you take from [th]em, in your personal
life going forward as a professional woman, as someone who growing up in this family, did you take any
lessons from them? And, and if so, how did you kind of, feel it, that you represented the family in that
way?
Ecke: Well, you know, my grandmother got married at 19 and had her first kid at 20, so she didn't ever,
she didn't have anything more than a high school education. My mother did go to San Diego State and,
did have a degree. But both of them, along with, my father, maybe a little less, my grandfather was very
big <unintelligible> [into] giving back. And it was always something that my parents talked about, but
they also, they didn't just talk about it. They did it. And they, my grandmother was very involved with
the Solana Beach Presbyterian Church and did a lot out of help through that, there was an orphanage
down in Tijuana that she was, very supportive of. And I remember her when I was a child, her loading up
her car and barreling on down to Tijuana to bring them whatever it was that she had in her car that
week or month or whatever it was. My mother was very, was involved in lot of things. She was always
on the PTA. We were all in 4H growing up and she was a 4H leader. She volunteered for children's
hospital. She later on when us kids weren't at home or were, you know, didn't need as much attention
all the time she was involved with Planned Parenthood, she was a huge Planned Parenthood supporter.
She, I'm trying to think of the other, Neurosciences Institute. I think it was called G <unintelligible> I
can't remember the name of it, but she was constantly involved with lots of different organizations,
voices for children. She was very involved with San Diego State, which is where she went to school with
the library at San Diego State. So I think that what I took away from that was that, it's important to give
back and everybody can give back, but if you are somebody of, means and, are known within your
community, it's even more important to, to give back that that's a commitment, an obligation really.
And, I heard about it growing up and I saw it growing up. And so that's probably what I took from it
more than, I mean, took from them more than anything was that they didn't just talk the talk, they
walked the walk.
Peirce: Yeah. I was about to, I was about to ask you about the, whether that was something that was,
verbally taught to you. Like, if it was like, “Hey, this is what we do,” or you just kind of learn from
example in regards to that, but you kind of, you kind of answered that.
Ecke: Yeah.
Peirce: Most of the press that I was able to read, mostly focuses on the men, in your family. Was that
frustrating for, <unintelligible> you can go ahead and answer if you got something.
Ecke: Well, I mean, I don't know that I think that it's, pretty standard for a, certainly for my
grandparent’s generation and for my parent’s generation. That’s what you did, even if a, a wife or
whatever was very involved in a business, you generally look to the husband for, you know, and they
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�LIZBETH ECKE
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-04-13
were the person that got all the glory and that's just the way our society has been set up. In this
generation my brother probably has had more publicity than I have just because he is the one that
owned the Poinsettia Business. And so that naturally, I mean, he got a lot of press just from own owning
the Poinsettia Business. He's also probably much more, comfortable in front of the camera because he's
been doing it for so long. So, when we are both in a situation and somebody wants one of us to speak, I
will defer to him.So, so that to some degree would be my fault, for not taking the spotlight when I could
all the time. But yes, I mean, I think that just as a woman in society, it is sometimes frustrating, to have
grown up and seen all the work that my grandmother and my mother did for the family business. And
when you talk about the family business, you don't really hear much about them. I mean, some of that's
getting righted a little bit, now, but it's certainly they didn't ever get any, any <unintelligible> whatever
they, nobody called them out as doing great things when they were doing them.
Peirce: Absolutely, absolutely. Which is, which is a shame, honestly. <Unintelligible> I guess kind of
where I want to go with that though, you brought up some of the functions that your grandmother and
your mother and that you have supported. Right? How do you decide what to support? Is there any-- is
it really up to you? What you support? Do you speak to people in the family just to make sure that the
family name is doing kind of-- is there like any collaboration or is it, whatever you decide to kind of
support at that time?
Ecke: No, I think that, I mean, I, I haven't ever felt like if there was something that I wanted to support
that anybody had any issue with it. I mean, maybe just being part of the family, there is a sense of, I
suppose if I ever thought that there was something I wanted to get involved with that might create a
problem, I would probably have a conversation. My brother and sister and I are pretty close and have
good relationships. So, I wouldn't expect that any of us would get involved with something that we
thought how had an edge to it without first, at least, telling others. But you know, what I've been
involved with has changed over the years when my kids were school age, I was very involved with their
schools. I have, you know, I'm involved with, YMCA a that's named after my grandmother. I was involved
with it a number of years ago. And there, if you read anything about me, it's probably how I got myself
kicked off of the board, but, <laugh> the man that was running the, San Diego, the corporate Y for San
Diego, he, didn't renew his contract and now there's somebody new. So then, so now I'm back on the
board. <laugh>, I'm all, I mean, I also am very supportive of Planned Parenthood, not to the degree my
mother was, my mother was on the board. That might be something I'd be willing to do down the road.
So I think that, that what I'm involved with evolves as whatever else is happening in my life or around
me.
Peirce: Absolutely. And then that makes sense, right? Like, you know, you're not, it's not like you give,
give a dollar one day and then you're just, you're guaranteed to give it the rest of your time. Right. It
really kind of focuses as your, as your life moves from place to place <affirmative> and from stage to
stage, you know, as I, you know, I'm a new dad, I never would've thought about all the things I do with
my kid and donating and doing stuff for that kind of stuff that prior to having him right. Every stage, it
kind of takes you to a different…
Ecke: Well, this isn't, it isn't in your field of vision.
Peirce: Absolutely. And that's understandable. Right. We only can see here to here. Right. We can't see
the full picture unless you're in it sometimes. Do you mind if I pivot to, to the Poinsettias? I just have a
few questions on that.
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�LIZBETH ECKE
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Ecke: Absolutely.
Peirce: I never grew up in a family that had like any sort of a business or anything like that. My parents
were teachers. But were you interested in horticulture at all? Were you interested in flower, like any
sort of growing flowers?
Ecke: Well, yeah. I mean, the house that I grew up in it was right in the middle of the Poinsettia [fields].
Peirce: Absolutely.
Ecke: So it was, you know, and I had done a lot of work for, I worked in the tissue culture lab at the
ranch. I worked in the greenhouses many summers. I, we, all three of us grew up there was never a
family vacation that we took that we didn't go visit greenhouse customers where ever it was in the
world. And, when I had studied overseas in Mexico and in Germany, I've gone and visited flower
customers on my own. So I was involved with it. But I also knew that wasn't gonna be the career I was
going to choose. I mean, and not that anybody said I couldn't, but, you know, my grandfather's name
was Paul Ecke Sr. My father was Paul Ecke Jr. and my brother's Pauly III and my name isn't Paul <laugh>.
So, and that being said, my sister and I were had ownership interest in the ranch as much as my brother
did, but we also made a determination, I don't know, 30 years ago or more that, the ranch really needs
to have a singular head of it, it was not a businesses that was gonna get managed very well with a, you
know, three people trying to do it. So we sold our interest to my brother and that made sense. I was on
the board of directors for the ranch, so I was still involved. And my brother and I, I mean, any time my
brother had big decisions to make, he would talk to me. So I may have not had my name on the
company, but I did feel very involved with it. And you know there's a Los Angeles flower market where
we would sell poinsettias every year. And I did that as did my brother and my sister and now I'm
chairman of the board of that flower market. And so I had been involved in the flower business pretty
much all my life, one way or another, I wasn't the face of the Poinsettia Ranch.
Peirce: But you enjoyed working with the flowers you enjoyed working with your hands?
Ecke: Oh yeah, no, absolutely. You know, and now we, as a family have the flower fields in Carlsbad. So
I'm still, involved with, well, not growing the flowers, but involved with the floral culture business, and
being on the board of the American Forest Exchange. I am attuned to what’s going on within that part of
the sector of the world and I like it and I always have.
Peirce: Awesome, awesome. I can’t even keep plants alive in my own house, so that just having an entire
farm stresses me out just the thought of it.
Ecke: <laugh> Oh, well, I've never run a farm. So that, that…
Peirce: Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. <laugh>
Ecke: I do, I did have a minor in horticulture in undergraduate school, but that was, as far as I went with
that.
Peirce: What was your major, if you don't mind me asking?
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Ecke: It was business.
Peirce: Business.
Ecke: And then I got an MBA in real estate and finance, so-Peirce: Absolutely. You've mentioned multiple arenas where you are on the board of directors or even
the chairman of the board and stuff like that. Have you as a woman faced any pushback, any friction
from people when you take these kind of leadership positions?
Ecke: Well, most of the things that I've been on, I would say, well, no, I mean, when I was first, went on
to the, American Forest Exchange Board, I was the first, I wasn't the very first woman that had ever been
on the board, but I was the first woman to be on the board for quite some time. And I would, I will say
that it was probably for the other men then that were on the board. My father had just recently passed
away and he had been chairman of the board. And then I, took over, I took his seat on the board. So I
think that, and I was much younger than the majority of the men on the board that isn't necessarily the
case now, but it was then, which is almost 20 years ago now. I think that they initially had, they didn't
have an issue with me being on the board, but I think that they were kind of surprised that I had an
opinion or, that I took issue with some of the things that they, wanted to do. Or so I wouldn't see, say
that I ever felt like they were trying to figure out a way to get me off the board, but I do think that there
were some times when they were frustrated that I wasn't just playing along with whatever they wanted
to do. Other boards that I'm on the YMCA board there's been women on that board long before I was
ever on it. And, so I never felt anything there. We have a family foundation board, that my aunt has
been on for as long as I can remember. And, and I've been on it for 40 years. So really no, I mean where I
had a lot of pushback when I was first came back and worked for the family, I was doing a lot of leasing
and tenant improvement work and construction management. And this was back in the eighties, late
eighties. And there were a lot of construction guys that really were not very excited about taking orders
from, you know, a short woman or probably a woman in general, but then this little, tiny person with a
high squeaky voice, I can't <unintelligible> anybody absolutely wouldn't do what I asked them to do. It
may have just taken me be more forceful than I needed to be.
Peirce: Absolutely.
Ecke: To do that. But you know, my father was to his credit. He really promoted, my sister and myself to
do whatever we wanted to, to do. And, when I, I remember one time when I was probably 15 working
up in Los Angeles at the flower market over Christmas, [be]cause that's the only time we would've been
up there with the poinsettias. And my father put me a in charge of the phone orders. And so I
remember, some big customer called and asked for my father and my father said, no, I don't have time,
you just deal with them. And I went back and the conversation kind of went on. And then he finally said,
I want to speak with a real Ecke. And so, I then went out, I mean, [be]cause again I'm 14 or 15 years old
and I go back out and I said, dad, he says, he'll only place this order with a real Ecke. And my father said,
you go back in there and said, tell him if he wants to buy poinsettias he is going to buy them from you.
And he's gonna give the order to you. And you are just as real of an Ecke as anybody else. And so I went
back in there and told the guy and he was none too happy, but he did give me the order. So my father
did things like that really, he may not have believed that when he was 20 years old. But I think that my
mother did a very good job of convincing him and teaching him that he should be paying attention to his
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daughters as much as his son. And he did credit her with that. He would be the first one to say that he
had a good relationship with his daughters because my mother taught him how to do that.
Peirce: That's amazing. That's really awesome. Especially that, that kind of support, that young, how,
how, early did you become, involved in the, in the family business? Like from as long as you can
remember, or…?
Ecke: Oh, I, well, I mean actually working, getting a paycheck was, you know, probably fifteen dollars.
But even before that, when we were little again, our house was right there, the middle of the ranch and
we'd go out and my father would put me to work, you know, folding, putting together pieces of different
pieces of paper and stapling them and folding them to go in boxes of poinsettias that were being
shipped out mostly as a way to keep me busy and out of other people's way. But I mean, I was probably
doing that from the time I was seven or eight years old, or he would pay us, like a penny to pick up trash,
to walk around the whole ranch and pick up trash and he would pay us, I dunno, 10 cents an hour or
something ridiculous to do that. But, so always my parents were big believers in working and knowing
the value of money. And my mother had grown up in a fairly poor family. Her family had moved out to
California when she was 15 and lived in, government subsidized housing where UCSD [University of
California San Diego] is now, they’d moved because my grandmother, I knew that she had, she knew,
wanted her children to go to college and California back then had, still does have, a good college system,
but it was virtually free. And, you know, my mother had two brothers and a sister and, you know, she
went to San Diego State. She had one brother that became a doctor and another brother that became a
veterinarian. And they all benefited from the school systems in, in San Diego, but that's why they
moved. And my mother worked a lot from whenever. I mean, from the time she could remember, so she
went, they lived through being homeless during the depression and other things. So my mother brought
that to the table for us in the sense of understanding that you can't be wasteful, you need to think
about, you know, how you spend your money. And my parents were on the same page with all of that
you know, just because you have money doesn't mean that you need to flaunt it or that you have to
spend it all just because you have it. And it, you know, there's other people that might need it more
than you do, and it's your responsibility to help out with that. So I feel like I got, fairly grounded in the
understanding of that.
Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. You, you've spoken a couple times about, growing up directly on, on the
ranch <affirmative> and when you were a kid, I'm assuming that, Encinitas was a little bit more rural
than it is now, not rural, but just less developed.
Ecke: Yeah.
Peirce: How has it been watching it grow over the years? Do you miss old Encinitas somewhat? Do you,
you wish that things were a little bit different? Do you, do you just enjoy seeing time and things
progress? Like what, what is your viewpoint on that?
Ecke: Well, yeah, I mean, if, if Encinitas could be the Encinitas that I grew up in, I thought that that was
fabulous. If I was really living in that would, I think is, is as fabulous, you know, you get nostalgic about
things. But I could, when I was growing up and I had my horse, I could ride my horse down Encinitas
Blvd. all the way to the beach and ride my horse on the beach with my other friends who had horses.
And, it was you… <unintelligible> So, I mean, there's things like that, that I'm nostalgic for. But places
change. I mean, you can't expect things to not change. And, for the most part, I think that the way
Encinitas has changed is pretty good given, you know, the options. I mean, there wasn't, there isn't a
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way that Encinitas was gonna stay the way that it was, but it was a lovely place to grow up. I mean, I,
again, I knew there was like two elementary schools and, you know, one high school. And when I went,
graduated from high school, there was only one high school from Del Mar to through Encinitas. So we,
all went to San Dieguito together. My high school graduating class in 1975 was the last year that we
were together, [be]cause then Torrey Pines was built and they opened up Torrey Pines [High School]. So,
I mean it was, it was a very close-knit community. And it was, you know, nice to know you go into a
grocery store, the drug store and you know, it's, somebody's father that's there or, you know,
<affirmative> and that, that was a nice thing. And I, and I do miss that, but I suppose if that was super
important to me, I could go find some other very small community that I could have that.
Peirce: No, absolutely. I, I mean, I grew up in, I grew up in Riverside and in the, the eighties and nineties
and I still remember driving to, to school and, running into, into, shepherds herding sheep across the
road. And now every single part of that is, is track housing that they built that are, you know, the cookie
cutter houses and, you know, you can get nostalgic for it, but I, I can completely understand like you,
you do what you do, what, what you can with what it is. People need to live. People need houses and
people need to, things grow and things change, but it was just interesting to, you know, you you've been
living in that, you lived in that same house as your, as your, as your father and everything. And it's just
like, you know, having it grow around that is, is a interesting perspective for sure.
Ecke:
Definitely, it definitely is. I mean, it's, it's weird because now I live in that, well, we've redone the house,
but I live in what was my grandparents’ house that my grandparents built when my parents got married,
they built a house and moved into the house. And then my parents moved into the house that my father
grew up in. So I now live in the location, not the house anymore because we did rebuild it about 15
years ago, but to where my grandparents lived and, and it was a very different place then, because
when I was growing up from my grandparents’ house, they were half a mile off of any public road in fact
when I moved into this house 30 years ago, we were still Leucadia Boulevard, didn't go through. And so I
was a half a mile off of any paved road. And, there the view, they had a view to the west, which we still
have and a view to the east and there was nothing to the east, nothing at all. I mean, there was one light
that you could see out there. And I remember that when I was a kid and now that's all houses. And just,
you know, my father, this is totally a, a side note, but my father was also very involved with Cal[ifornia]
State [University] San Marcos and getting it started and was very enthusiastic about it, which is, part of
the reason that, my brother and I decided that that's what the family papers should, should go. It was, it
kind of made sense because we had that connection.
Peirce: Absolutely, absolutely. We, we appreciate it. Not that I'm, I have a particular hand in it, but at
the same time I, you know, as a, as a budding historian, I do appreciate <affirmative> people putting
their things in the, in archives. Is it, I'm trying to figure out how I can word this… right. When you, when
you've spoken about like how your grandfather advocated for the, the, the I-5 going where it, it goes
and, and your father was, was, a, a large part of, of the, the beginnings of Cal State San Marcos, right? Is
it, do you ever sit and think like, oh wow. Like my family has really impacted this, this area in, in many
ways, like, you'd sit, be like, wow, like this is here in part because of the way that my family has kind of
shaped the area. Do you ever think about that and how it like, is that an interesting thought to you or is
that never occurred?
Ecke: Yeah, it, no, it is. And I mean, it's something generally. I mean, I would say it's a sense of pride to
know that, that the, our, we didn't, we as a family, didn't just come here and do what we did without
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wanting to better our community and be involved in our community. I mean, I know that my parents
and grandparents, when Encinitas was super tiny when they were here, they, there wasn't anything for
anybody to do after work. I mean, there just wasn't anything here. So they figure out how to build a
bowling alley in, in Downtown Encinitas. So people had a place to go versus I guess, just going to a bar or
something. I mean that there was someplace something else to do. And, those kinds of things, I mean,
there's nothing that there's no rules or laws or anything that says that you have to do that, but if you're
gonna be part of a community, it's nice to know that your family helped build that community. So it,
yeah, it is something that I think about, at times when, you know, there's, and there's enough things
named after our family, there's a park in Encinitas. And then there's the YMCA and there's various other
things that, remind me and maybe the community of what we've done. I would say that it is very
different now than it was even 20 years ago. I mean, 20 years ago, I could, if I said my name was Ecke,
pretty much anybody in Encinitas would've heard the name, they would, I mean, they might not know
anything, but they would've heard the name. And, that isn't necessarily the case now, and that's not a
bad thing, but it is, we are a much, larger and diverse community now. So, our family doesn't play the
same kind of role as it used to. I mean, we still are very supportive of the community and we have a
family foundation and most of the money, it's not a huge found[ation], but most of the money that
comes out of that does get invested in, local charities, things like the YMCA or the community resource
center or things like that. So we still are very involved, but again, because the community has grown so
much, we're just not as big a, a part of it, which that's a good thing, [be]cause there's a lot more people
out there that are also being supportive of things that need to be supported.
Peirce: Absolutely. Given, your longstanding, presence in the community, as people have come in, have
you. worked with other people who have tried to make a difference in the community? Have you tried
to foster those kinds of, any sort of other, like, charitable services or anything like that? Has anyone
come to you and been like, how do I start this? How do I do this and kinda look to you and have, have
you mentored anyone in that regard?
Ecke: No, I don't think that I could say that I've done that. And I don't think that I would certainly know
how to tell anybody to start something. I mean, I've been involved with any number of things, like the
Community Resource Center and the YMCA and grower school and any number of things. And so I've
met a lot of other people within the community and I mean, the people that tend to volunteer and give
money is just like almost anything in life. You've got, you know, 20% of the people doing 80% of the
work or giving or whatever. I mean, it is, you see the same people over and over again.
Peirce: Absolutely. What else do you, where do you see your role in the family moving forward? Where
do you see your family moving forward in the community, given that you've said that it, as the
community has grown, you've kind of, do you still see your family as a vital part of the community you
have going forward?
Ecke: No, definitely. My brother lives in Encinitas. I live in Encinitas, you know, we both raised our
families in Encinitas. My sister lives in North Carolina, and we both still work in the family business. And I
don't see that really changing at some point in the future. Some of the kids, my kids, my brother’s kids,
my sister’s kids may wanna come back and be part of the family business. At some points somebody's
gonna have to take over things from our, my generation of, people, but pretty much all of those in their
twenties. So they're still figuring out what to do with their lives. But, I mean, my father was involved
with in the community and pretty much until the day he died and my mother until her Alzheimer's got
too bad, was involved with the community. So I never saw my parents just say, okay, I'm done now. And
I'm gonna, you know, go just have fun all day every day and not be involved with my community. So, and
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my husband grew up in a similar type of in environment. So I don't see us just, you know, retiring and
doing, not being involved.
Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. What would you say has been, your proudest accomplishment? Whether
it's in North County or just in general, what, what are you most proud of and in your career, in your life
in general?
Ecke: Well, I mean the most obvious answer would be my children. I mean, I've raised two children that
are self-sufficient and, you know, both graduated from college. My son's getting his PhD now and, you
know, they're supporting themselves and that in of itself is an accomplishment as a parent. I don't, I
don't know that… There is a given thing that I could say that I would point to. I know I'm happy that I
have been able to be part of the family business in a relevant way. It was something that was very
important to my mother because she didn't always feel seen. And so she fought very hard for my sister
and myself to be seen and to be heard. And I think it was, something that she was very proud of when,
she had daughters that were involved and had a say in what was happening. And so I feel accomplished
that I fulfilled something that was important to my mother.
Peirce: Absolutely.
Ecke: But I don't know that there's a specific, or that I can think of a specific thing that I've fought for
and won on or something.
Peirce: I mean it is a difficult question unless you clambered up Everest or something, it's like, well, you
know, like I was just curious if there was anything specifically, you're like, oh yeah. You know, like, I won
the World Cup or something, but you know what I mean?
Ecke: No, none of those things.
Peirce: Same here, so it's, yeah. I had one question I did have about the papers that you donated. Was it
important for you and your family to have someplace, public for repository of that nature? Or what was,
what was the reasoning behind that and why was that important to you guys?
Ecke: Well, my mother was a big history buff. That probably was part of it, but-- It just, there was a
hundred years of history of our family. Because you know, my grandfather, my grandparents first came
down here in the early 1920s, and bought land. And Encinitas was basically a railroad station at that
time. And was really one of the founding families. And there was, lots of records because we lived on
the ranch, and we had all these various barns and buildings. I don't think much of anything ever got
thrown away because you didn't have to throw it away. So there are, you know, receipt books and
things from back in 1926, you know, and, I will say that my brother did a yeoman's job when, after he
had sold the ranch property and sold the business, he spent a year going through all of those records
and consolidating and organizing, a hundred year’s worth of stuff. And that was a huge job. And during
that time we talked about, well, okay. I mean, it didn't seem right to just throw it away. I mean, but
what do you do with it? I mean, that is really the question of what are the choices. So, we talked to
various people there and I should remember his name, somebody who is a history professor there at Cal
State San Marcos that was also on the board of the, historical society here in Encinitas. And we met with
him, and I think it may have been his suggestion that we go and talk to the librarian out there. The other
thing that we thought about was, San Diego State, because we had a connection there with my mother,
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my father went to Ohio state, so that wasn't gonna make sense. I mean, but, you know, Cal State San
Marco was here and in North County and we had a connection with it. And so that seemed to make the
most sense because it just didn't feel right to just go rent a warehouse and put it in there who was ever
gonna do anything with it. And, you know, I think that there is a wealth of knowledge in history, even if
it's just mundane things that, you know, receipt books from back in 1926, and you can see what a bag of
flower cost or whatever. I mean, you're a historian. And then those are the kinds of things that people
can look back on and get real information about what life was like. And you know Cal State San Marcos
was the one that was really venturing into new territory because they didn't have any, we were kind of
the first one. We were all kinda learning together as to what this meant. I mean, we didn't, I mean, we
knew that families gave papers to various learning institutions. I didn't ever know anybody personally
who had, or, you know, what, like that really meant. So it's been a cool learning experience.
Peirce: Oh, absolutely. As, like the idea of you were saying, like, we didn't know what to do with it. I was
just like, in my head, I'm like, please don't throw it away, even though I know you didn't, like, I was just
like, don't do it. <laugh> Well, as we wrap up here, is there anything about you, your life, your family,
that you feel like I, we haven't touched on that you kind of wanna talk about today?
Ecke: I don't know. There probably is, but nothing that is, jumping, to mind right now. Yeah, I mean, it’s
been a fun ride. I don't think it's over. I feel very privileged to have been part of, or to be part of this
family. it's nice to have history and grounding within a community. Again, my husband's family’s from
New Orleans and he's like third generation on one side and five generations on the other side. So, he has
a similar feeling and it's, there is something very grounding about being a part of someplace. And I feel
very privileged to be part of Encinitas, [be]cause I do feel like I have a lot of invested in it and I guess has
a lot invested in me and that's, that's been nice.
Peirce: Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't, I don't think we could end know a better note than that. Lizbeth
Ecke, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for giving us your perspective about your
family and giving it to this project. My name is Jake Peirce and we are signing off now.
Ecke: Great. Thank you.
Transcribed by Sierra Jenkins
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�
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Ecke, Lizbeth. Interview transcript. April 13, 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
Narrator Lizbeth Ecke is the daughter of San Diego horticulturist Paul Ecke Jr., who contributed to the popularity of the poinsettia plant. Lizbeth Ecke also is on the board for the YMCA and the American Forest Exchange. In this interview, Lizbeth discusses her childhood growing up in Encinitas, CA and working alongside her father in the flower business, and her experience as a women working in a male dominated industry in comparison to her father and brother.
Creator
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Lizbeth Ecke
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Jacob Peirce
Sierra Jenkins
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2022-04-13
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Businesswomen
Floriculture
Interstate 5 -- California
Poinsettias
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Encinitas (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections
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English
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Lizbeth Ecke
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SC027-12
Community history
History Department internship
Women's experience
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jennifer Fabbi
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Regina Eisenbach
OHMS Object
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.xml
Interview Keyword
This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record.
higher education;women in leadership;Western Association of Schools and Colleges;mentorship;administration
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
6.0 Eisenbach, Regina. Interview July 1, 2025. SC027-085 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm higher education ; women in leadership ; Western Association of Schools and Colleges ; mentorship ; administration Regina Eisenbach Jennifer Fabbi moving image EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1b6dd8309f4ca65c7028d0d2f151d601.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 39 Childhood and adolescence Eisenbach reflects on her childhoood. She was born in Puerto Rico but is of Cuban descent. She was very close with her parents. She attended University of Miami for her undergraduate degree. San Juan, Puerto Rico ; Cuban ; only child ; Miami ; Massachusetts ; University of Miami ; Gainesville 0 175 College experience Eisenbach's undergraduate degree was in psychology after which she started a PhD program in Management Studies in the COllege of Business at University of Miami. psychology ; academic ; business ; organizational behavior ; calculus ; Program in Management Studies 0 399 Eisenbach meets her spouse Eisenbach met her husband at the same time as she started her PhD program when she was twenty years old. They have now been together since 1987. Hialeah, Florida ; Madonna ; young ; girlfriend 0 509 Moving to San Marcos Eisenbach found out about a faculty position at CSU San Marcos from her PhD advisor. She interviewed a few places but ended up accepting the job at CSU San Marcos. Her plan was to be in San Marcos for two years and to move back to Miami. Chet Schriesheim ; young woman ; Dean Bernie Hinton ; faculty position ; marriage ; Spanish speaking ; Cal Poly Pomona ; Florida Atlantic University ; Len Jessop 0 878 CSU San Marcos when Eisenbach arrived When Eisenbach arrived at CSUSM, the "campus" was in an office park a few miles away from where the permanent campus would eventually be built. She was an instrumental contributor to the creation of the Business curriculum. She loved teaching, but research more of a challenge for her. College of Business Administration ; San Diego State ; curriculum ; research agenda ; teaching ; service ; Academy of Management ; administration 0 1232 Administrative path Eisenbach started on her path to administration early in her tenure at CSUSM. She reflects on the positions she has held and some of the ups and downs along the way. dean ; interim dean ; Kathleen Watson ; associate dean ; Mohammed Mustafa ; friendships ; challenges ; Dennis Guzman ; work-life balance ; disappointment ; provost ; Graham Oberem ; Patricia Prado-Olmos 0 1919 Role in Academic Programs Eisenbach was named as the Associate Vice President of Academic Programs (now Dean of Academic Programs) in 2013. In this role, she has overseen the academic catalog, the curriculum, assessment, and accreditation. In 2019, academic advising was added to her to her portfolio. catalog ; curriculum ; Western Association of Schools and Colleges ; Accreditation Liaison Officer ; accreditation ; dean ; asessment ; advising ; President Karen Haynes ; student affairs ; academic affairs 0 2112 Evolution of CSUSM After thirty-four years at CSUSM, Eisenbach reflects on its evolution. The building of the physical campus was a key milestone, and she was very closely involved with the building of the Markstein Hall. She also discussed the growth of the student body. Regina expresses her gratitude for getting to be a part of the evolution from the beginning and being able to build CSUSM for future generations. campus ; buildings ; Markstein Hall ; enrollment growth ; City of San Marcos ; infrastructure 0 2304 Becoming an academic Eisenbach discusses her unexpected path to a career as an academic. teacher ; academic struggle ; academic conference ; research 0 2449 High points at CSUSM and impactful work Eisenbach reflects on the high points and low points of her time at CSUSM. Highs include the opening of Markstein Hall, the great people she has worked with, and her son graduating from CSUSM. She also discusses her work and what she thinks has been most impactful. Markstein Hall ; Melissa Simnett ; reaccreditation ; son ; graduation ; Academic Advising ; Academic Programs ; Curriculog ; Acalog ; catalog ; curriculum ; pandemic 0 2742 People who have influenced Eisenbach's career Eisenbach gives credit to colleagues and mentors who have influenced her career over the years. Dennis Guzman ; Beverly Anderson ; mentorship ; women in leadership ; Pat Worden ; President Karen Haynes ; Kamel Haddad ; Graham Oberem ; Dawn Formo ; David Barsky 0 3034 Plans in retirement Eisenbach discusses her professional plans for retirement as she will be participating in the Faculty Early Retirement Program. Faculty Early Retirement Program ; Voluntary Separation Incentive Program ; Western Association of Schools and Colleges ; WASC accreditation teams ; Ecuador 0 Oral history Dr. Regina Eisenbach is retiring from CSUSM as the Dean of Academic Advising and Academic Programs in 2025. After thirty-four years at the University, she shares a rich history of CSUSM’s evolution over time. In this interview, she discusses what brought her to CSUSM, her path to administration, people who have influenced her professionally, and the physical and structural changes to CSUSM through its development. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:23.000 Hello, this is Jennifer Fabbi, and today I'm interviewing Dr. Regina Eisenbach for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History program. Today is July 1st, 2025 at 10:30 a.m. This interview is taking place at Regina's office on the CSU San Marcos campus. Regina, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:26.000 Thank you. I'm honored that you asked. 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:39.000 Okay. So to start off, we'll start young. Can you tell me about your childhood and adolescence, for example, where you were born and a bit about your family? 00:00:39.000 --> 00:02:43.000 Sure. so I was born in San Juan, Puerto Rico by accident. I'm not Puerto Rican, but I'm actually Cuban. I'll get to that in a second. My dad was there on business. My mom went to go see him, and she was bedridden for six months to have me. And so she was in Puerto Rico and got stuck there basically. And so I was born there. I think that's telling because it shows the kind of parents that I had. So I was an only child and they'd lost--my mom miscarried four times before me, and after me, I had a brother who died after a day. And so my parents lost a lot of children. I was the only surviving kid, so they were, (tears up)--didn't think it would start this early. So they were very devoted to me. And you'd say overprotective, but as a young child, it was great. So we lived in, we moved to Miami early on and then moved to Massachusetts for a little bit, came back to Miami. And so I grew up in Miami from second grade all the way through college. And went to the University of Miami because when I graduated from high school, wasn't really ready to leave home. So went there and went to graduate school there as well, because I thought I might wanna' go away to grad school, and a little independence from my parents at that point when I was, you know, twenty or so. And when I said, Yeah, I think I might go to Gainesville or something, they'd say, oh, they said, Okay, we'll come with you. Okay. That defeats the purpose. So I think I will just stay here. And so I did. And so I went straight from my parents' house to my husband's house. I have never lived alone. So that also says a little bit about me. 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:55.000 Okay. So you started to talk a little bit about your education. Can you tell me about your formal education, including your areas of academic focus? 00:02:55.000 --> 00:06:35.000 Yeah, so I my undergraduate degree was in psychology. And I did my undergrad in three years. And so when I was, I graduated from college, I was, I wasn't even--I was twenty and wasn't ready to leave school. So I know some folks say that, you know, they always knew they wanted to be an academic or they always knew they wanted to be such and such. I didn't know what I wanted to do. All I knew is I wasn't ready to leave school. So I was looking for graduate programs. And I got word that this professor over in the College of Business was starting a PhD program in business. It was gonna be brand new in organizational behavior. And I thought, Okay, that's, you know, psychology adjacent, let's check this out. And one of those vivid memories I still remember and he did, too--what I was wearing the day that I went to see him 'cause I was wearing red high top Reebok sneakers. This was in 1980--Lord, '87. So yeah, I swear it was in style then. And I wandered into his office and he said, yeah, we're gonna start this new PhD program, but it'll be great. And so I said, sure, why not? So I got in, it was a full assistantship, so I didn't have to pay for it. I actually didn't have to pay for any of my education. It's something that I look back on. And I think, how did that work? Because my parents didn't make a lot of money. I got lot of scholarships. And so my undergrad was completely covered. And then the PhD program was a full ride. Truly blessed. Didn't really know at the time what a blessing it was. And so I thought, all right, I'll try this. And the PhD program, since it was brand new, I was the first student admitted. And there weren't classes for just us in business, so we took classes--there was, there were only two or three, there were a few IO (industrial organizational) psych students in the program at the time, but there was five of us total, if that. So we would take classes with the other PhD students and other disciplines. But when I started my PhD advisor said, Well, you haven't taken calculus. And I said, Yes, I know. That was intentional. He said, well, business folks have to take calculus. And so I did. As a graduate student, one of my classes was to take calculus with the freshmen. And I got an A minus, I still remember. So that first summer of the PhD program, since I didn't have an undergraduate degree in business, I had to take classes with the MBA students. And it was the name has since changed, but I am not even making this up. The program was called the PMS (laughter) Program in Management Studies. And it was basically a business bootcamp, so really condensed all of the basics of business. And I learned that I hated accounting and I hated economics, and I sucked at it. And I got my first Cs ever in school in those two classes. But overall, you know, I liked school and I liked the--I thought, Okay, I'll, you know, keep doing this. And so that's how I got into the PhD program. It wasn't anything premeditated, which is actually the story of my life. It wasn't a plan. It was just, Eh, this'll work out. 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:39.000 And Regina, when did you meet your husband and where? 00:06:39.000 --> 00:08:19.000 I met him the day after I started the PhD program. So I was twenty years old. We both grew up in the same town in Hialeah, Florida. And met through a mutual friend. He, my friend and my husband worked at Marshall's together. And it was, the Madonna was going on tour, the Who's That Girl concert. And back in the day, he had to sleep in the parking lot. You may even be too young to remember this. You had to sleep in the parking lot to get concert tickets. And so my husband and my friend were sleeping for the Madonna tickets, and I was supposed to meet them in the morning to give them my money for my ticket and stand in line when they bought them. My husband had no idea. He just thought I was coming 'cause I was, you know, Rick--our friend's name was Rick--Rick's friend. And so I showed up. So we met in the parking lot of Westland Mall, very romantic. And I saw him, and the first thing I thought of was, He looks very young. And so I pulled Rick aside. I said, Rick, how old is this guy? He goes, no, I swear he is your age. Okay, great. Turns out he is, he's two days younger than I am. And it was, I mean, for me it was like, wow. Almost love at first sight. And so that was June 6th that we met. And we went out, we started talking on the phone every day. And we went out in a big group on June 12th, and he asked me to be his girlfriend. And we've been together ever since. 1987. 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:29.000 Okay. So how did you find out about the CSU San Marcos faculty position? And what was the process of you moving here? 00:08:29.000 --> 00:14:25.000 So as I mentioned in my retirement speech, like one of those moments that just sticks in your mind. I was standing in my PhD advisor's office and his name was Chet Schriesheim. And my mom, who I alluded to, I'm Cuban. So my mom was raised in Cuba, born in Spain. My dad was Hungarian. And my mom had a very thick accent when she spoke English. And we used to joke that she had her own language 'cause the way she pronounced things so she could not say Schriesheim to save her life. So she called him Shoeshine. And so we all did. So I was standing in Shoeshine's office, and Shoeshine knew my mom called him Shoeshine. We got very close. He became--not that I needed a father 'cause my father was very, very strong presence in my life. But he became a father figure. So much so that his son was the ring bearer at my wedding. And so I was standing in his office and 'cause I was really young at the time, I remember I was, you know, twenty when I started grad school, I was twenty. And so he really, you know, made it a point of raising me in the academy as well as, you know, trying to prepare me for being a young, very young woman in this field. So anyway, I'm standing in his office and he, back then, it was all mail obviously. And so he got a letter from then acting Dean Bernie Hinton, who was founding faculty here who was recruiting. And so he sent letters to all the PhD chairs at institutions that he was familiar with. And so Shoeshine read the letter to me and it said do you know of anybody who wants to take on the opportunity of building the first new public university in twenty-five years in this country? And I said, Alright, I'll give it a shot. And so that's how I ended up interviewing here. And when I came to interview, I--so at the time, I was with Angel and we had already made plans to get married. And so we were looking at the job market together, and we said, We need to go someplace where people speak Spanish. And so ignorantly, now we know, we said, Oh, San Diego. Great. They speak Spanish there, and Mexicans, Cubans, same deal. Yeah, it's not at all. But we figured, all right, California would be, you know, pretty cool. So I interviewed at Cal Poly Pomona, and I interviewed here, and I interviewed at Florida Atlantic University in Boca. We didn't wanna' leave Miami, and we thought we never would leave Miami. And in fact, the, I was heartbroken to know that U of M wouldn't hire me 'cause they didn't, they really didn't like to hire their own grad students. 'Cause the plan was supposed to be, I was supposed to stay in Miami, and we were gonna buy the house next door to my parents. And that's it. We were gonna stay there. So I came out here to interview and remember somebody that, you know, picked me up, Len Jessop. He was on the faculty then went on to become UNLV's President. And he picked me up. There was no campus, it was Cal State Jerome's. He took me to the office park. None of that bothered me 'cause I was young. And he drove me down Barham, and they pointed at the dirt and they said, There's gonna be a campus there. Oh, great. And they showed me the drawing and all the things. And I remembered the people seemed to be a little younger as compared to Cal Poly Pomona, especially. A little younger. Very excited and super energized. And I thought, Wow, this is great. Too bad I'm never gonna' leave Miami. So the, I did get offered eventually the job at Cal Poly Pomona, but I thought, no, it's just the, the vibe was very traditional and it felt old to me. I was twenty-four. Everything feels old when you're twenty-four. And Florida Atlantic only had a visiting position, so Angel and I thought Well, we'll go to California for a couple years, and we'll come back 'cause by then something will have opened up. And so we did. And moving out here was--we got married August 2nd, moved out here August 12th, 1991. And it was one of the most traumatic things we have-I have--ever done, we have ever done. We got here, got to our apartment on Mission, still there. And had to buy everything 'cause we came with no furniture, nothing. So we went to Jerome's and we bought an apartment full of furniture, and went to the grocery store where the Stater Brothers is now. And got on a payphone, called home and said we wanted to come back. And we were going to 'cause we had bought round trip tickets because it was cheaper. And so we thought, All right, the round trip goes back in a week. We can, we can go. And we kind of thought we were 'cause it was just, it was heartbroken, it was the fir-- heartbreaking. It was the first time we had ever been away from our families. And Angel moved out here sight unseen. He had never even been to California. So thankfully, I think the next day I went onto into the office, I can't even say campus 'cause it was an office park. And saw the people again, got excited about the opportunity. And that's why we decided, All right, we'll give it, we'll give it the two years. 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:38.000 And you've talked a little bit about this, but what was the entity, the organization, CSU San Marcos, like when you arrived? 00:14:38.000 --> 00:17:29.000 Well, it was, there were no offices. So I was, you know, in a cubicle for the first, what, three years. Everybody knew, literally, everybody knew everybody 'cause it was tiny. When I got hired in COBA (College of Business Administration), there were eight faculty, and then four were hired when I got there at the same time as me. Three Asian guys and me. And it was--in some ways it's good that I was so young because I didn't know that I should be terrified because of everything that we had to do. They--the curriculum in COBA was basically just San Diego State's repackaged. And, but the Dean, Bernie at the time said, you know this is just a placeholder for us. We're gonna, and then the first thing we're gonna do is we're gonna create our own. Well, I didn't even know what curriculum was, so I had to go to the library to get a book to, because back then, PhD programs did not train perspective faculty in teaching pedagogy, curriculum design, or any of that stuff. It was straight up research. And by the way, my PhD advisor, Shoeshine, thought I was nuts to come here because he said, you are gonna' be overwhelmed with service. You're not gonna' be able to get your research agenda off the ground. And I said, Yeah, you know, two years, it'll be fine. So yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot that just fell into place, me coming here because, you know--spirit of full disclosure--as far as the profession. I loved to teach. I was very good at it, not just to toot my own horn, but I was very good at it. And students loved me. I loved the students. So I was a great teacher. The research I could do. It wasn't my passion, though. And so coming here was a blessing in that way because I was able to lean into my strength, which was teaching and this whole new thing of service that as a faculty member or as a PhD student, I had no clue what that was about. Shoeshine used to call it administrivia, if he ever had to serve on a committee. And when I would go to conferences, the Academy of Management, and I would go to the PhD or the new faculty seminars, and I would talk to people and they would look at me like, You're doing what? You're on what committee? What? And they thought I was insane. But looking back, it was the best training for an administrator that you could ever have as a faculty member. So I, you know, unbeknownst to me, I was kind of on this trajectory towards becoming an administrator without even knowing it. 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:43.000 Okay. So your focus for the first years of your career was in the classroom. And what did you teach? And then what was the focus of your research and service, which you've spoken to a little bit, but anything else you'd like to add? 00:17:43.000 --> 00:20:20.000 Yeah, so I taught management and organizational behavior. And I taught IO (industrial organizational) psych in the early days. And I taught H--I think I taught HR once, but mostly it was the basic organizational behavior class. And the classrooms were storefronts back then. So there was a glass in the back and there's little shutters, but inside it looked like a classroom. And almost all of my students were older than me. I think all of my students were older than me. So back then I used to always wear suits and professional stuff and wear glasses to look older. So yeah, on the research side I continued to work with some of my PhD student colleagues to get, because, you know, you have to get enough stuff out the door to get tenure. So, so I did that. The great secret of my life was that I came here at the time ABD ("All But Dissertation"). So I was, I wasn't done with my dissertation, which in retrospect was insane. Coming into a brand new job, brand new everything. And I was scared to death. I didn't tell anybody when I got here and then finally one day I just broke down in the dean's office in Bernie's office and said, I just, I wasn't able to finish the year, but I'm almost done. I just have to write this stuff up. And he said, Don't worry about it, you'll finish it. So by March of the spring semester, I was done and I walked. So part of my first semester was, you know, finish up the dissertation, get started on your res- on your teaching. And oh, by the way, you'll be on all these committees. I don't know. I don't know how I did it. So those were the yeah, the early years. And then the yeah, the service stuff was just all, everything you can imagine. So there's a faculty member in computer science at the time, Shell Baning. And he said, Oh, you should be on Academic Senate. I, what, what is that? And so I was, that was one of the first things I did. And I remember then, and it's still true now, how can they spend forty-five minutes talking about one sentence in a document? I don't understand. So that's why when folks, Academic Senate, now when I see things, it's like, I, what, so what's new? I've seen this for years. 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:32.000 Okay. So you started your administrative path relatively early on in your career. Can you tell me what that path looked like for you and the positions that you've held? 00:20:32.000 --> 00:31:53.000 So in 1999 we had a dean search. And for reasons completely unbeknownst to me 'cause I was an associate professor at the time, the then-vice president for Academic Affairs, he was not pro--the title didn't include Provost yet. That's a not recent anymore, but in '99 it was just the VPAA (Vice President for Academic Affairs). He asked me to serve as the Dean Search Committee Chair. And so, Alright, sure. And unfortunately the search was not successful. So the VPAA had to pick an interim dean and chose one of my colleagues, Kathleen Watson. And she and I were very close and close friends as well as colleagues. We did consulting together. We were friends outside of work. And so he thought--the VPAA thought I could be her associate dean. And so I was made interim Associate Dean in 1999. And I thought, you know, sure, for a year, I'll try it. I don't have any idea what it entails. Because up until then, the associate deans in the colleges had been these older full professors at the time. I thought they were old. I now look back and think they were like way younger than I am now. I am sure. And so I didn't know. I didn't know what I didn't know. And so I said, yes, I would be associate dean 'cause I figured I'm working with Kathleen, it'll be okay. And then there was another dean search and that one also failed, and the VPAA--no wait, no, that dean search was successful, sorry. And he, the dean who came in, came from Cal State Long Beach, Mohammed Mustafa. Called him Mo, rest his soul. He kept me on as associate dean, and he made me permanent. And the first, the first semester was fine ; after that thing started going sideways because his management style and what the faculty wanted at the time were completely different. And the faculty--he began to get really suspicious of them. They began to really hate him. And I was stuck right in the middle. And so that was, I'm sure one of the questions is gonna' be, what's the most chal-- what are the most challenging times that you faced here? That was really one of them, if not the most, because I basically lost all my friends because Kathleen and the other senior faculty thought that I had betrayed them because I stayed on as Associate Dean. They thought I should have resigned. But, you know, at the time, I liked the job and I didn't want to, I didn't wanna' quit. And they never got over the fact that I stayed on as Mo's Associate Dean. And so lost my friends. They wouldn't talk to me. People would yell at me in meetings 'cause they couldn't yell at him. So it was really unpleasant. And so after eighteen months, Mo resigned and that was the only time that I started looking for jobs elsewhere. And I actually got an interview as--for a dean of faculty position in, outside of Boston, Massachusetts at a Catholic school called Easton. And it was when Vince was three, and I remember that because he couldn't pronounce Massachusetts. And so I had to, when I left, Angel would tell him that I was going on an airplane to Massachusetts and he would say, Mama, go airpane Ma-chusetts. (laughter). So that was a great experience because I thought, Okay, I'm a relatively new associate dean. It was only a couple years out, and they still wanted to interview me. And the people were really nice, and I didn't get the job, but at least I felt validated, like, Okay, I could do this. And then thankfully there was a dean search, and the dean who came in was Dennis Guzman. And he was--he ended up being the stability that COBA needed. So prior to that, I said Mo stayed for eighteen months. The permanent dean before Mo stayed eighteen months. There had been a bunch of interims. So the, there was a revolving door in the dean's office basically every eighteen months for the first about ten years of Cal State San Marcos's existence. But when Dennis came in, he was a great people person. He really got to know the faculty. They began to trust him. He ended up serving as dean for ten years. He made it his mission the first couple of years to get folks to respect me again and to treat me well. And it worked. I never got my friends back, like Kathleen and I never fully recovered our friendship. We got to at least talk 'cause she wouldn't even talk to me. We got to at least be on speaking terms and be civil and thanks to Dennis. And he also was great because he--Vince was young. And he let me do all of the things that moms can do. I never had to miss any of his things. I could go on field trips, if I needed any time, Dennis would give it to me. And so he let me be a mom to a young child, which was the most important thing to me. So when I first became Associate Dean, Vince was three. And I figured, I'm gonna be--and I was really young at the time--so I was gonna be the youngest everything. I was gonna' be the youngest provost. I was gonna' be the youngest president. I was going all the way before I was forty. And then Vince started kindergarten, and I realized, holy moly, he needs me. And this time is not gonna' come back. And if I miss it, I am gonna' regret it. And we only have the one kid we couldn't have anymore. So like, this is my one shot. And so thankfully Dennis let me do that. And so that's why I stayed on as Associate Dean for thirteen years. And then he decided--so provost came, new provost came in. She was quite something, and they didn't get along. And so he decided to step down. And I thought, Oh God. Because I used to tell him, Dennis, don't leave 'cause I don't want your job. But by the time he stepped down, I had been Associate Dean for like eleven years. So they asked me to be the interim dean. And I thought, all right, I'll give it a shot. And so I was, and found that, you know, I'm a chameleon. I can adapt pretty darn well. 'Cause It's a completely different skillset, associate dean to dean, as you well know. Being the the associate dean, you're the support, you're the details, you're the sounding board, you're all the things. As the dean, you are it. If you don't think of it, it doesn't get done. You need to--and then in COBA, you had to fundraise. There was an advisory board, all of the things. So business, community stuff. So all kinds of stuff I was learning. But I loved, I liked it. I liked it a lot. And so when the fall semester went well, when the spring semester rolled around and the dean search started, I put my hat in the ring. I thought, You know, why the heck not? And the Provost at the time, she said that, you know, I was doing a great job. She loved working with me, I liked working with her. Everything was going great. Dean search happened. And I didn't get the job. And I still remember to this day, it was April 1st, 2012. She called me and told me I didn't get the job. And I cried harder than I had ever cried. 'Cause I gave my heart and soul to this, to the job. And I thought I should have gotten it. People were telling me I should have gotten it. The advisory board was. Everybody was thankfully rallying around me, but, you know, to no avail. 'Cause the person that they picked at the time, and I'm not, I'm not saying anything that anybody doesn't know, she left after two years and gave the provost at the time--so the provost shift, Graham came in, Graham Oberem--gave him two weeks notice. So, she basically came here to get her retirement. But the provost who hired her saw dollar signs because she had come from San Diego State and raised, supposedly raised, thirteen million dollars. And so they thought, oh, she'd come here and do the same. So that didn't work out. And she, you know, I did my best. I swear it wasn't sour grapes or anything like that. I did my best to transition her in and to work with her. But her work style and mine were very different. Like, I'd come in and before 7:00 a.m. there were sixteen emails for me to do stuff. She was having me do spreadsheets left, right, and sideways for absolutely no reason. And so after a year, I thought I can't do this anymore. So I was gonna' go back to faculty, and Graham called me 'cause David Barsky was stepping down as the--it was AVP (Associate Vice President) of faculty--of Academic Programs at the time. And Graham asked me, do you want to do it? And I said, no, I don't, because let's see, David works until midnight, and I don't know what the job entails and, you know, but let me sleep on it. So I did. And Angel and I talked and he said, You know, what have you got to lose? Do it for a year. I said, okay. Twelve--it would've been twelve years today that I stayed in this job. And, you know, turns out that Patricia Prado-Olmos told me this, and it's true. That the COBA dean thing was, you know, the best thing that never happened to me because this gig was really, you know, very well suited to what I like to do, what I like to think I'm good at, and allowed me to work with faculty across the University, which I didn't get to do in COBA. Gave me a really a bigger picture view. Had I decided to go on to be a provost someplace else, it really would've positioned me well for that. And so, you know, looking back, there really has--well, I haven't had a plan for my career. There has been a plan by someone, you know. So I'm a person of faith, so I believe God took care of me somehow. Put me where I was supposed to be when I was supposed to be at each stage of my career. 00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:59.000 So tell me what an AVP of Academic Programs does. 00:31:59.000 --> 00:34:55.000 So the evolution of--so started off with basically the catalog maintenance. And back then it was a paper catalog and then shifted to PDF. So the catalog and then the curriculum. So curriculum goes through a bazillion approval steps--new courses, new programs, all the way up to the Chancellor's Office. And so all of those steps really shepherding, shepherding faculty along in their creativity around new courses and new programs to get them through all of the myriad of steps. So the position originally was an AVP and it didn't do--David didn't do accreditation and what else didn't he do? And he did first year programs. So when I took it over, first year programs really wasn't in Academic Programs anymore. Neither was scheduling, which he had for a while. And then after about a year, we had--we were ramping up for our WASC (Western Association of Schools and Colleges) reaffirmation in 2014 at the time. And Sharon Hamill was our campus Accreditation Liaison Officer. And she was a faculty member. We had our visit from the Vice President from WASC, and he recommended that it be an administrator. And so Sharon and I talked, I had, you know, gotten to know the VP from WASC. I was really impressed. And I said, you know, sure, I'll do it. And so that's how the WASC piece came over. Then Academic Affairs reorganized, and we brought in a Vice Provost for the first time. And when that happened, that's when the AVP position became a dean position because they wanted all of the senior leaders in academic affairs to be at the dean level. And so I became Dean of Academic Programs and still doing the accreditation, assessment, curriculum, catalog. So those basic things. Then in 2018, President Haynes called me into our office, and there had been a task force put together to look at advising and infrastructure and organization around academic advising on the campus. And they said that it should be consolidated in one division 'cause It was bifurcated in Student Affairs and Academic Affairs at the time. And they wanted all in Academic Affairs. And Karen--President Haynes--asked me if I would do it. And I said, why me? Academic programs, advising, why? She said, you know, we really think that you can make it work. And so that's how advising, that's how it became Dean of Academic Advising and Academic Programs in 2019, I think we launched. 00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:57.000 Yeah, it's been a long road. 00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:59.000 Yeah, it has been. 00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:12.000 Okay. So you've been a faculty member and administrator on campus for 34 years. What has been the evolution at CSUSM? How has it changed? 00:35:12.000 --> 00:37:16.000 Well buildings are nice. (laughter) It still boggles my mind to this day. I will just like stand in Palm Court and look up the stairs 'cause for the longest time, those stairs were there and there was no building. And they were the stairs to nowhere. That's what we would call them 'cause Markstein Hall didn't open, hadn't opened yet. So every single building on campus, I have seen open. I've been in many of them before they were even built, like this building, I got to--I have a rivet from this building. So just basically growing up with the campus was just insane. And it's not, you know, it really exceeded expectations 'cause I certainly hoped that once we decided to stay here 'cause I mentioned we were gonna' be here for two years. After two years and, you know, this weather, we called home and we said, Yeah, we're not going back. And so my parents packed up and moved, and eventually, Angel's family packed up and moved. So once we decided to stay, and I got to, you know, we were at 400 students when I started. We're at what, close to 17,000 now. So just seeing that, and all of the talk in the early years was always about the City of San Marcos, the region needs us 'cause there's gonna be this explosion in the college age population. North County's population is exploding. We need to be here. And they, the City, you know, put its money where its mouth was. The Twin Oaks (Valley Road) has been as it is today, since before there was a campus. So they really were thinking ahead. And so, all of those promises and dreams so many of them came true. And I got to see that. I got to--(weeps) I knew this would happen. 00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:20.000 It's okay. We very much want you to be as vulnerable as you can. 00:37:20.000 --> 00:38:13.000 And anybody who knows me knows that I cry. So it's okay. But I got to be a part of that. I got to, to build, build this place. And I think, wow, you know, I built it, and then my son came here. So I built it for him, for all of the other students that have graduated. And for all the faculty who have come here. So, you know, if you look for God, did you, did you go someplace where they let you make an impact? Yeah, I did. I did. And I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that Shoeshine got that letter that day and that I gave it a chance. 00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:24.000 Did you always know that you wanted to be an academic or this was something that Shoeshine, like, helped to develop? 00:38:24.000 --> 00:40:33.000 Yeah I, when I was little, I used to play school, and I'd line up my stuffed animals, and I had blue books, and I thought they were the coolest thing in the world, and I would give them little tests. So I guess leaning towards teaching was always a thing for me. But being a professor, no. And in fact, Angel can tell you this, when we, since I met him the day after I started the PhD program, I hated my classes. 'Cause they were very quantitative. I was a psych major. This was not my wheelhouse. And it was a lot more difficult. Like, I had been a really good student my whole life. Even in my undergrad, I got two B's. So school came easy to me. That all ended in grad school. It was not easy anymore. And so I would cry on the phone with him every night that we were talking, Oh, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this program. And so after the first year, I got an internship in HR for a bank. It was called Sun Bank at the time, in Florida, in Miami. And it was on Brickell Avenue, which is a beautiful big office right on the bay. And so I just had an intern job. But I got offered, at the end of the summer, I got offered a permanent job for ten dollars an hour. And I thought, Wow, that's lot of money. This was in 1988. That's a lot of money. Maybe I should drop out of the PhD program since I hate it so much. And I almost did. Oh my God, thank you. I went to my first academic conference at around the same time. And at the conference when I met other PhD students, when I saw faculty presenting on their research, I said, oh, okay. This is what faculty do. It's not these quantitative classes that I hate. So I was able to see the bigger picture. And so at that point, I, and then I started teaching in the PhD program, too. And I thought, okay. I like this. I like this part. Now, being an administrator, never crossed my mind. But being faculty-- 00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:37.000 Until you started to be an administrator and then you were going all the way to the top. 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.000 Yep. Then I was gonna' be president. Yep. 00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:49.000 Okay, I get it. Okay. So can you speak to your highs and lows at CSUSM? You talked about one of the lows. 00:40:49.000 --> 00:43:48.000 Yeah. So highs. This building, Markstein Hall. I was involved from the very, very early stages. I saw, I think I was on the first building committee, the first building design--people might not know this--was a circular building, but then in the CSU that can't work because it's too much wasted space. And then on the inside, so the scrap that, came up with the design, so work from the--work with the architect from the very beginning, as I said, was in this building multiple times as it was going up. And so when it finally opened, this was like my child. So it's funny now that I'm back in here, it's like, oh, I'm, I'm home. I feel completely comfortable. I was like, I picked out this furniture. Fourth floor, all of it, you know, we, the I--the fourth floor, I picked. Dennis, let me pick it. Dennis, let me pick this chair. It is a Coach leather chair in green. It's mine. This, I tell Angel, this is going home with me when I retire. And he says, University property. No, it's my chair. So opening this building was just awesome. The, in this job, well, accreditation, you know. Getting ten years when I didn't know anything about was going into this and was able to put a great team together, work with great people. God bless Melissa Simnett, you know, we were able to pull off a ten-year reaffirmation, which was awesome. Just seeing the growth, that's just been so exciting. My son graduating from here, that was, you know, best day of my life, no doubt. I was able to--I used to, before we got the, it's not an AI reader, it's a--how would you call our, how we do names at graduation now? So it's the computer reads them basically, but it's a human voice. Anyway, before that, it used to be faculty, and I used to coordinate the reading of the names and I would read names. So I got to read his name, and I got to say "my son Vincent Lorente," and my voice cracked just like that. So that was like one of the best days ever. Actually, every graduation is just amazing. And so those are all high points. The last thing I'll say is, you know, working with Academic Advising and getting to know those folks. This team of in Academic Programs that I'm working with now, like the stuff that's been happening recently, that's, that's all been awesome. I've loved it. Low points. I mentioned the one that was the lowest. What was the other one? Yeah, there really haven't been many. There really haven't been many. Yeah, I'll leave it at that. 00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:59.000 Okay. Do you have work that you've accomplished in your career that you think has been the most impactful? Like if you had to name one or two things? 00:43:59.000 --> 00:45:36.000 Curriculog and Acalog. So our curriculum system--curriculum management and our catalog--that's fully online. 'Cause that's, I mean, that's a piece of infrastructure that's gonna' last us. And we, that was entirely. I don't do "me" very much, but that one was me doing the research. Other CSUs, only three were using it at the time. But we had to do something 'cause we had paper forms that we're chasing all around campus. And we tried working with IT to do something that was an early version of DocuSign, but the technology wasn't there yet. And so these companies just started up then that were saying, Hey, we can do it all for you. And so I started researching them and thankfully we chose these folks. And now most of the CSUs uses 'em. And so that, while I don't fool myself into thinking it's gonna last us forever, I'm sure there's gonna be a better mousetrap someday. It has taken us quite far and took us through the pandemic, which if we had not had that, then there is no way. Everything would've ground to a halt. So I think that's had a big impact. This building, this thing's my legacy right here. So those things, and I guess just all the, I haven't counted, maybe I should, all of the program proposals, new programs, all of the things that have gotten approved in the last twelve years while I've been in this job. Like, at least--not a hundred, but about fifty easy. And so so those things. 00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:42.000 Great. Can you tell me about the people who have most influenced you in your career? 00:45:42.000 --> 00:50:24.000 Hmm. So going--I mentioned Dennis Guzman, who had been the dean in COBA. So he was a great mentor and a great friend. And he rebuilt my self-esteem such that I could stay on as an administrator and not think that I was the piece of dirt that all of the faculty thought I was at the time. Beverly Anderson. So she was the first permanent dean hired in 1992. And she was, unfortunately, not what the senior faculty at the time wanted. I don't know if there were gender issues then. I was too young and blind to see any of that at the time. But they did not like her. They wanted to get rid of her and made her life miserable. And in fact, they co-opted us junior faculty. 'Cause I was twenty-six, what did I know from anything at the time? These, you know, senior faculty, who had been around forever, different universities were telling me, oh no, this isn't what we need in a dean. So they co-opted all of us and did a vote of no confidence against her. And so she stepped down after eighteen months. And then as I got a little bit older, I had a little bit more experience. After about three years, I realized, Man, that was a mistake. Beverly was good people and she was a good dean. And so I went to her and I said, Beverly, I am so sorry if you could ever forgive me. And so she became a mentor to me. She became a very close friend, and we stay in touch to this day. And she is like the exemplar of what a woman in the academy should be like. She came up in a time when women weren't respected, but yet she kept her head high. And I still remember the things that she told me. Like she said, nobody insults you without your permission. She taught me that careers are cyclical and that they go up, they go down, they go up, they go down. So never when they're down, when you're down, never worry about it 'cause it's gonna' go back up. So she had a huge impact on me. I'd say Karen Haynes, so she was a great mentor to me. She and Pat Worden, who was a VP of Student Affairs for a while, had been all of the things, like she had been Associate Dean in, it wasn't CHABSS (College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral and Social Sciences) then, it was COAS, College of Arts and Sciences. Lots of positions on campus. And so she was a mentor to me and she, Karen and wait, yeah, she, Karen and I taught a class on women in leadership. And so that was super exciting. And that's how I got to know President Haynes as a person. And she wasn't just like in name only, she, we team taught that class and she was there. Like, she would come, she would lecture, she would discussion, all of the things. So she was a great influence on me. Kamel Haddad. He was just amazing. He made me better, you know, he just had a way of, you know, he was tough. He was hard to understand sometimes, not verbally, but just, What is it that you want from me? and I can't do it! And he yes, you can. And he taught me. And he was so patient. And so he made me better. Graham. Graham, he came in from the the provost who didn't give me the job. And he treated me fairly. He respected me. He--I guess that was a low time when I didn't get the job, the dean job. But Graham came in and saved the day for me. And so he was, he was definitely a mentor. My super close friend here, Dawn Formo. She and I have been together now for what, thirty years we've been friends. And so I always looked to her for like, what would Dawn do if? 'Cause she always does the right thing. Yeah, I'd say those, those folks. I'm sure there's more. I'm leaving out. Oh, David Barsky, who held the position before me. So he taught me. He spent a whole year training me, and I was thinking, I can't do this, David. I can't do it your way. But he still taught me and he taught me well, and he was always there to answer questions. 00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:32.000 So what do you plan to do during retirement? Personally and professionally. Today is your first day of retirement, I will say-- 00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:33.000 It is. 00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:34.000 --and you're in your office-- 00:50:34.000 --> 00:52:27.000 --and here I am. (laughter) Aye-yai-yai. So I am going to FERP, faculty early retirement. And so as part of that, I need to continue my--funny how I phrase that--I need to continue my work on WASC because the retirement was unexpected. My plan had been 2026 after my sixtieth birthday in September, after we had done our WASC reaffirmation visit, which is in March of 2026. But this VSIP (Voluntary Separation Incentive Program) thing came up, and it was too good to turn down. So I retired now. But leaving this place in a lurch with accreditation wasn't an option for me. And thankfully, the Provost and Vice Provost agreed. And so that's my fac--my FERP assignment is instead of going back to the classroom, I'm going to continue on as the, the WASC ALO and lead us through the accreditation visit. Also, since I'm not being replaced yet, the whole what happens to academic programs and academic advising question is still a very real one. And so I will be a faculty fellow for accreditation and curriculum, which means, kind of have to figure out how much I can do within the constraints of my FERP assignment to kind of keep the boat afloat for a year. So in a lot of ways, nothing has changed but then everything has changed. So I'm just, I'm still trying to figure out in my head what that means. I think at minimum it means that I set my schedule. And that I am the boss of no one for the first time since 1999. And that technically no one is the boss of me, other than my dogs. (Laughter) 00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:31.000 Will you still continue to do professional work with WASC? 00:52:31.000 --> 00:53:56.000 Yes. So I will still serve on teams. So I've been doing that for about ten years now. I got involved with WASC after our visit because I was very impressed with them as an organization, because you think accreditation and it, you think it's about checking a bunch of boxes and oh, you don't do this right. WASC is not that. WASC is all about, you know, maybe it's the California philosophy, I don't know, but it's all about let's try to make you better. Let's get to know you, let's help you be a better version of you. And so that felt really good. And it also felt good to learn about other institutions because since this is the only place I've ever worked in higher ed, you know, that's my, that's a strength and it's a weakness because it's all I knew. And so getting involved in WASC exposed me to all types of institutions, you know, private, not-for-profit, for-profit, all of the things. Big schools, little schools, international schools. They sent me to the Emirates to review a school, I'm going to Ecuador next year. So really, WASC like swung open the door on professional development for me as someone in higher ed. And so I will absolutely love to keep doing that. And in fact, I just did a sub-change review yesterday for a school in Africa, of all places. Didn't go there, obviously. It was Zoom. But yeah, Ecuador in April. 00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:10.000 Very cool. Okay. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about in this interview? Anything that we missed? 00:54:10.000 --> 00:55:17.000 So in my retirement speech, I made a reference to Hamilton," and I read part of George Washington's farewell speech. I won't do that again. But the one thing I didn't say was another quote from Hamilton and it says "legacy is planting seeds in a garden you never get to see." I got to see the garden. So that's pretty cool. And as I said earlier, I'm really grateful for that. Hopefully there's still some flowers that will bloom once I'm gone. But that won't be for another, well, I can FERP for five years. And that's my plan, you know, I think, God, old people retire and I'm not old, you know, fifty-eight, I'll be fifty-nine, but I've got five years now, and so I can see going all the way through five years for sure. Unless and until Vince has a baby. If that happens, then we are Napa bound and I will be raising grandchildren. (laughter) 00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:43.000 Very good. Okay. Well thank you. I will say the theme that came across to me the most in this interview is your like, can do, I can do it for a year, I can do it for two years. I could, I can do it for six months. And you've obviously been open to these possibilities, and that is really what has made your career and CSUSM so much better. So thank you so much for interviewing today. Thank you. Thank you for letting me talk about myself for two hours. (laughter) 00:55:43.000 --> 01:55:49.000 Thank you. Thank you for letting me talk about myself for two hours. (laughter) NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 
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 ; 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.xml EisenbachRegina_FabbiJennifer_2025-07-01.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19
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Eisenbach, Regina. Interview July 1, 2025.
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Dr. Regina Eisenbach is retiring from CSUSM as the Dean of Academic Advising and Academic Programs in 2025. After thirty-four years at the University, she shares a rich history of CSUSM’s evolution over time. In this interview, she discusses what brought her to CSUSM, her path to administration, people who have influenced her professionally, and the physical and structural changes to CSUSM through its development.
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2025-07-01
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Regina Eisenbach
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Jennifer Fabbi
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California State University San Marcos -- History
California State University San Marcos -- Administration
Education, Higher
Women in leadership
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San Juan (P.R.)
Miami (Fla.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
CSUSM history
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a52581a7fd498b492ea058b5ac827903.pdf
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Eisenbach, Regina. Interview transcript, July 1, 2025.
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Dr. Regina Eisenbach is retiring from CSUSM as the Dean of Academic Advising and Academic Programs in 2025. After thirty-four years at the University, she shares a rich history of CSUSM’s evolution over time. In this interview, she discusses what brought her to CSUSM, her path to administration, people who have influenced her professionally, and the physical and structural changes to CSUSM through its development.
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Regina Eisenbach
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Jennifer Fabbi
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2025-07-01
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California State University San Marcos -- History
California State University San Marcos -- Administration
Education, Higher
Women in leadership
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San Juan (P.R.)
Miami (Fla.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
CSUSM history
Women's experience
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Oral Histories
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Suzy Karasik
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Roberta Estrada
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5.4 Estrada, Roberta. Interview November 3, 2022 SC027-31 0:58:38 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Basket making Education, ESL Endemic plants -- Southern California Luiseño Indians Refugees -- Vietnam San Marcos (Calif.) Roberta Estrada Suzy Karasik mp4 EstradaRoberta_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-03_access.mp4 1:|17(8)|25(7)|32(10)|45(2)|57(5)|65(7)|74(11)|89(9)|116(12)|124(8)|137(2)|147(6)|162(3)|171(11)|182(10)|193(7)|206(7)|222(4)|240(10)|257(6)|277(6)|299(4)|309(11)|319(10)|329(10)|340(6)|386(7)|398(9)|420(10)|430(2)|449(4)|463(8)|473(8)|492(1)|506(10)|515(10)|526(15)|548(5)|574(10)|618(12)|634(2)|655(12)|666(2)|674(3)|708(4)|721(4)|734(10)|772(3)|803(4)|817(11)|842(6)|865(12)|890(13)|908(11)|916(11)|928(3)|944(14)|988(11) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/740a3fad6534f024735fd2e1671bc774.mp4 Other video English 0 Childhood and school years/ Indigenous identity Roberta Estrada discusses her childhood through college years. She was born into a tight-knit family, and explains that her mother was French and Native American from the San Luis Rey Mission Band tribe. She grew up in Vista, CA, but went to school in San Marcos, CA. She attended Alvin Dunn School, which is now renamed La Mirada Academy. Estrada explains that at the time, San Marcos did not have a high school district, so she attended Vista’s high school until San Marcos became a city in 1963 in her junior year. She also discusses that while in school, there were many more Hispanic children than there were Indigenous children and does not remember associating with Indigenous classmates at that time. She explains that she became more aware of her Luiseño identity later in life when her mother became involved in Indigenous groups. Estrada then recalls attending college and majoring in Spanish with a general education degree for elementary studies. She also describes her husband’s Pala background, particularly how his family acquired the surname “Estrada.” Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; College ; Hispanic community ; Hispanic people ; Identity ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Pala Band Of Mission Indians ; San Luis Rey Mission ; San Luis Rey Mission Band ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Spanish language ; Vista (Calif.) 618 Career in education Roberta Estrada discusses the sexism observed in her Indigenous community and in the school systems she taught in. She describes attending college and completing her student teaching in Wisconsin before returning back to Southern California. She explains that she attended Palomar College to complete more training before enrolling at California State University Bernadino and earning a Life Credential for teaching. She taught K-12 in the San Marcos Unified District as a bilingual teacher for thirty-two years. Estrada also discusses other aspects of her career as an educator, such as how members from the San Marcos community became involved in students’ learning and how she incorporated life skills into her curriculum. Finally, Estrada recalls teaching students who immigrated to the U.S. during the Vietnam War. California State University Bernadino ; Education ; Educators ; English language ; ESL ; Gender ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous people ; Palomar College ; San Bernardino (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Schools ; Sexism ; Spanish language ; Students ; Vietnam War ; Wisconsin 1276 Basketry Roberta Estrada discusses her involvement in basket-weaving. She explains that she has recently become involved with basketry by joining her cousin, Diania Caudell, on her school group presentation demonstrations. They also provide demonstrations to local universities about native plants. Estrada explains that they utilize processed plants from a company in Huntington Beach, CA for their presentations in order to ensure safety for their school groups. This ensures that are not handling plants that are sprayed with insecticides. Estrada also briefly explains an Indigenous coming-of-age ceremony that boys and girls participate in in the Luiseño culture. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Insecticides ; Luiseño people ; Native plants ; Pesticides ; San Luis Rey Mission Band ; School presentations 1732 Family background Roberta Estrada reflects on her Indigenous heritage and on her family’s background. She discusses how her late mother was an elder of their tribe, and how she had always turned to her mother for guidance in learning about their Luiseño culture and extended family. She also explains how she has more recently started learning about her Indigenous culture, traditions, and practices. She discusses current family traditions, such as powwows and other family gatherings. Extended family ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Native American elders ; San Luis Rey Mission Band 2032 Pride in heritage Roberta Estrada reflects on the feeling of proud of her Indigenous heritage. She explains how there are seven Luiseño tribes in the area, and yet, the San Luis Rey Mission Band tribe is the only federally unrecognized tribe. Estrada also discusses the San Luis Rey Mission Band’s recent attendance at the proclamation at the City of Oceanside meeting. She explains that this demonstrates that they are becoming more involved and making themselves more recognized in the community. She is excited to see younger San Luis Rey individuals become involved in the community. Community outreach ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous heritage ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; San Luis Rey Mission Band 2267 Land recognition and governmental involvement Roberta Estrada discusses the topic of land recognition. She explains that land acknowledgement is a much more recent component that has been added to events and presentations, whether in-person or virtual. She also explains how to present a land acknowledgment statement. Estrada also briefly explains the many obstacles that Indigenous tribes have to navigate through in order to be recognized by the U.S. government. Governmental involvment ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous lands ; Indigenous people ; Land acknowledgement ; Land recognition ; Native lands ; U.S. government 2473 Tribe's involvement in North County/ Identity and heritage Roberta Estrada reflects on North County. Specifically, she recalls her friends who operated Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch. The ranch’s land was eventually used to build California State University San Marcos. She also discusses how her family’s tribe aided the community and respected the land, such as cooking meals for the community. Estrada also explores the importance of oral history, especially in communities where histories are not recorded. Finally, she reflects on her heritage, explaining that she feels prouder of her Indigenous identity after entering retirement. She explains how she has reconnected with family members and her desire to pass on her heritage to her sons and grandchildren. She also expresses interest in continuing her education in learning the Luiseño language. California State University San Marcos ; Community outreach ; Extended family ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous heritage ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño language ; Luiseño people ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; Oral history ; Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch ; San Luis Rey Mission Band ; San Marcos (Calif.) 3158 Advice to descendants Roberta Estrada provides advice to her descendants. She describes that she and her husband taught their two sons to live their life as they wish and to respect their elders. She is concerned that respect to one’s ancestors is a custom that is no longer practiced, and hopes that this is a life lesson that will be observed by future generations. Estrada ends the interview by discussing her upcoming basket-weaving presentations. Basket-weaving ; Basketry ; Descendants ; Indigenous basket-weaving ; Indigenous basketry ; Indigenous community ; Indigenous heritage ; Indigenous history ; Indigenous people ; Luiseño people ; Native American elders ; San Luis Rey Mission Band Oral history Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band tribe. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch. April 6, 2023 Transcript Suzy Karasik: Good afternoon. Today is November 3rd, 2022. My name is Suzy Karasik and I am interviewing Roberta Estrada as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Roberta Estrada, thank you for joining me today. Roberta Estrada: My pleasure. Karasik: Great. So, I think probably the best part--the best place to start is a little bit of background--where you were born--and let' ; s talk about what was your childhood, like when you went to school, and how you identified yourself. So, I' ; ll give you plenty of time to go over that. Estrada: Well, I was born in--at Camp Pendleton at the old Marine Corps Hospital in 1945, and I' ; m the oldest of three children. My parents met at Camp Pendleton because my dad is from the Midwest, and we' ; re a very tight-knit family, and did a lot of things together. My mother i--wa--well, she' ; s passed away, but my mother was French and Native American from San Luis Rey area, and I am actually a--let me think now, what--third, fourth-born native of the area. So, I went to school very, very short period of time in Oceanside where we lived at the time when I started kindergarten. And my dad says, " ; No, that' ; s too close to Camp Pendleton. I' ; m out of the Marine Corps now. So, we' ; re going to move." ; So we moved to Vista (chuckles), long ways away. So, I only attended there for two months. At the time there was no busing for kindergarten children in Vista, so I didn' ; t go to school until I went into first grade. Went for two years in Vista and my dad says, " ; Met a couple and they said ' ; Oh no, you have to put your child in school in San Marcos because the schools are smaller and we liked them.' ; " ; So, he says, " ; Okay, we' ; ll shift you over there." ; So, I came to San Marcos in the third grade, and was there until I finished eighth grade, first graduating class out of what was then Alvin Dunn School, and then--now it' ; s changed to La Mirada Academy. Then I went to--we didn' ; t have high school in San Marcos. So, the kids that--the children that went to school in San Marcos and finished eighth grade were split up between Escondido and a few of us went in to Vista, because we were on the border of Vista and San Marcos. And, it was a much bigger school than San Marcos was when it was built, and so my dad says, " ; We' ; ll get you in there." ; Okay. So, my junior year of high school, I switched back to San Marcos schools with all of the people that--children--all the friends that I had and been raised with through school, and I finished high school the year that San Marcos became a city in 1963. Karasik: Very interesting. Estrada: Yes, and it' ; s been-- Karasik: And how was your experience there, like, when you said you were happy to go back to the school that you' ; d been with your friends in grade school? And were there other Native American children there? And let' ; s talk a little bit about also your Mexican last name and how you felt that might have been an advantage. Estrada: Well, at that time, my last name was not Estrada. At that time, my last name was Guy, very Anglo. So, in school, while I was in school in Vista, there were more of the local Hispanic children, and I don' ; t think I even associated with Native American children being--or picked out children as being--Native American at that time. All the way through school. I don' ; t believe I ever did. And I don' ; t think that that even happened until after I finished high school and I did go to college and majored in Spanish, and with a general education for elementary studies. But, I don' ; t ever remember connecting to the Native Americans at that time. My husband, his family--well, his fam--his immediate family was from Anaheim, but his father was from Pala. So, he was the Native. But he had the Native American in him. And the only reason that he got the Native American--the last name of Estrada was because that--his grandfather worked for people whose name was Estrada, and if they went to get any kind of bank accounts or do anything in town, they had to have a last name. They couldn' ; t just go by their Native American names. So, they took the last name of what we call the dueños, and those are the people that had the--the owners of the ranches and that' ; s where the Estrada name came from. But, um, my husband was the first one to get in--no, actually my mother, because her mother was Native American, and her father was also Native American. And s--their--my grandfather is from one of the prominent families in Oceanside, the Foussat family. And he is one of three brothers. So, he had a truck farm and we all learned how to help out on the truck farm. And that' ; s when I met a lot of the other Natives, I guess you would say, or--well, actually there weren' ; t a lot of Natives. There were more Hispanics than there were Natives that, uh, were in that area. Karasik: And back in that time, those years, did they k--refer to people as Natives or as Indians. Estrada: As Indians and if you talked to my father-in-law who was half-blood, he said that they could not claim being Indian or Native American and--or they would be put on--just like on the opposite side of the room at the end of the line or whatever. They had to claim--they ha--the Hispanic background, the Mexican background, in order to be eligible for a lot of things. And-- Karasik: So, this was talked about at home, and you were prepared to know how to best present yourself when you were in school or those situations. Estrada: I would say not until I probably was late high school. Karasik: Mm-hmm. But it was talked about at home. Estrada: A little bit. Well, be--the first thing that happened was that my father didn' ; t speak any--well, my mother spoke Spanish and that--because that was--they didn' ; t use a lot of the Native language at the time, and my father didn' ; t. So, it was, " ; Speak to the children in English. They need to learn in English." ; And they were married in the Catholic church, but my father had to--and in San Luis Rey Mission, in fact--but my father had to sign papers to say that my mother was to be allowed to raise the children as she was raised. So, because he was from the Midwest, and-- Karasik: She would be allowed-- Estrada: She would be allowed-- (nodding) Karasik: --to raise the children. Estrada: Yes. She would be. Karasik: And this was the San Luis Rey Mission-- Estrada: Yes. Karasik: --Band. Estrada: They were--well, yes. They were married in--at the San Luis Rey Mission in 1944, and that' ; s when--shortly after I was--I was probably about late high school when I--when my mother was getting more involved with the Native American group. She was more into helping others than--than trying to--to say " ; You' ; re--you' ; re Native American, Roberta. You need to think about this. You need to do this. You need to do that." ; She never really pointed that out to us. I have a younger sister and a younger brother, and the three of us have become pretty involved with the tribe now, of which I am part of the Tribal Council. My husband was part of the Tribal Council first, but when he could not do it any longer, then I was helping him by sitting by his side to start with. And then--and then I became part of the Tribal Council itself, aft--no, before he passed away. Karasik: I' ; m curious there. It sounds like, because you became part of the Tribal Council, and you are now, are women more respected and it' ; s a matriarchal kind of a society? And how did that feel for you, looking at other cultures where women weren' ; t perhaps quite as-- Estrada: Yes. There is more, um,--When you--If you look at our Tribal Council, I think it is a majority of women. I never even thought about it that way. But yes. And the other thing is that I would say that there were times when I would say, " ; Why don' ; t they let her speak. Why don' ; t--Why does he have to talk for her?" ; You know, when I would meet other families. And I, when I came--I went away to college, came back, and taught school here in San Marcos. And, um, the first class I taught was a kindergarten class and they were hiring--I was hired as a bilingual teacher, because I did have a Spanish major. And I can remember parents bringing their children in and not being allowed. The--the mother usually was not allowed to speak for the--for--for them. Or she would speak for the child, but if I asked a question, the mother would always turn and look to see if it was okay to answer or not. Karasik: And what year was this? Estrada: 1976. When I changed my name. Well, actually I came back in ' ; 70--let' ; s see, ' ; 68. Karasik: Right. Estrada: I came back in ' ; 68. I--What I had intended in--When I went to college, I went to college at a--what was called a county Normal School in the state of Wisconsin, because that was where my dad was from. I moved there. I lived with family so that I didn' ; t have to pay the extra in--tuition for anything. And when I came--and that was an experience in itself, because the-- I mean, my first teaching classes, my student teaching classes, were in one-room schools where they had everybody. The first room was just kindergarten through fourth grade, and the teacher I was teaching under was actually the principal of the school too. The second session was (chuckles) an eighth grade and that was even more interesting because that eighth grade had these kids that were much bigger than I was at the time. And, I mean, ' ; cuz it was only two years after I had finished high school. And, uh, then when I--I said, " ; You know. I like Wisconsin. I like the changes in the weather and the foliage and all of that. It was just really nice. But I' ; m a California girl." ; I came back. I went to school when they were first building Cal State San Bernardino. And I finished off my--Well, first when I came back, I had to get the basics from Palomar because we skipped right to the last two years of school. And now I had to go back and get my beginning language, my beginning math, my beginning sciences that the colleges require. Then I went to--When I finished at Palomar, I went to Cal State San Bernardino for two years and got my Life Credential for teaching, which is a no more existing thing now, anyhow. I don' ; t have to go back to take classes in order to teach. I could--I' ; ve been retired for thirteen plus years now. But I could go in and apply and still be eligible to get a job now if I wanted to, which I don' ; t because I' ; m too involved with too many other things. Karasik: Great. Um, yeah, I' ; m aware of that. They do not offer the Lifetime anymore. So, what was it like when you said, " ; I' ; m a California girl, and I want to come back." ; It sounds like a lot of things had changed within you as well. And I thought it was really interesting the way that you noticed how the women didn' ; t feel as comfortable--comfortable to speak. But what kind of changes did you see when you came back to the area, and--not even so much what did you see, but how did it feel for you? Obviously, you were thrilled to be back. But what--what did you kind of notice then and how did that shape the way that you carried on with your life? Estrada: Well, I think that I noticed at that time, probably into my maybe second or third year here, that the parents, the mothers were becoming more involved in what was going on. And they were more interested in how to help their children at the time. And that was a--a plus. I had a lot of connections to people that I could call on in the city also that helped out. I mean, yes, we had--I had friends that would bring their sheep in to show what happened to the sheep when they sheared it. And one of the boys that graduated from high school with me ended up to be the fire captain and I would call them and they would come out and do demonstrations during the--that. So, it just--and parents just really wanted to be a part of what was going on. And I think the moms became more involved because dads had to be working. Karasik: Right. And so was that part of the curriculum or was it--were you more free then to say " ; Hey, I think it would be a good idea for these children to see these kinds of living situations." ; Estrada: It was integrated into the curriculum. Yes. I' ; m going to say it that way. Because I could make a lesson--and I' ; m not bragging--but I could make a lesson out of, you know, a Hershey' ; s candy bar and teaching fractions. But it was something that you just made the children feel like they were part of your school community then. Other than that, they didn' ; t, you know--you go to school, you sit at a desk, you see, you pay attention to what the te--You' ; re here to learn is what they were taught. And I have to admit that was one of the things that the parents really instilled in them. But we would integrate a lot of the-- Karasik: Life skills. Estrada: --skills. Life skills. And we-- Karasik: Yes. Estrada: We made ice cream, so they' ; d learn how to measure. And we would--we celebrated all the cultures. You couldn' ; t celebrate Christmas as Christmas. This was an interesting one. So I incorporated all the different countries that I could think of and incorporated it into finding out about different cultures and their traditions at that time. So that was how I helped. Karasik: And there wasn' ; t a problem with that? Estrada: Not as long as I did that. I was-- Karasik: That you knew of. Estrada: There were--I was observed just like every other teacher had to be observed. I was observed a lot, and everything--I never had any problems with--and we had to turn in lesson plans on it. You know, it was just like " ; you want me to tell you exactly what I' ; m going to be doing in every single minute?" ; " ; Yes, we do." ; " ; Okay. So, I' ; ll write down general ones and you can come in and look any time you want." ; (laughs) Karasik: Right. Well, it sounds like, uh, it was definitely an--a--a--a plus or an advantage for you to have been from the area, having gone to another area to kind of gain that knowledge including your school. But that experience. And so would you say that it was definitely a benefit for you to feel like more imbedded in the community and you had all those-- Estrada: Oh, yes. Karasik: --connections and that made your life a lot more. Estrada: And because I taught for thirty-two years, I actually ended up teaching children of classmates that I had in school. Because a lot a--at that time they weren' ; t moving out of California. I mean, they weren' ; t moving out of San Marcos (laughs) as far as that goes. A lot of people stayed. Karasik: And people weren' ; t moving in as much, as well, as they are now. Estrada: We did--yeah. The--in my later years in teaching, then we had the--the children from Vietnam, the chil--you know, that--the immigrants from there. So-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Estrada: During that Vietnam time. Karasik: And I would assume that you integrate that--integrated them into the class. Or how did you handle some of that? Estrada: (laughs) You' ; re going to laugh, but I would speak Spanish to them. And I forget--I forget that wasn' ; t their second lan--their first language. And I would--but I--uh, there' ; s just one little--one little Vietnamese girl that sticks out in my mind so vividly is because she did not speak English when she started. So, we ran the--well, we were already using an ESL program because of going in to--well, having mostly Spanish children in the classroom at the time. And then, um, she made such a tremendous advance. By the time she graduated from high school, she was Valedictorian. Karasik: Oh, isn' ; t that great! Estrada: Yeah. So, in her--in her twelve years, you know, she was, um--she just moved right up the ladder. But it didn' ; t hurt her at all that we were speaking to her in Spanish. She picked up some! (laughs) Karasik: At a young age, yes. Estrada: Uh-huh. Karasik: It' ; s a lot easier. Well, I' ; d kind of like to move on to--I mean there' ; s--we could talk about how your work has changed since then. But I do happen to know that you' ; re a--a basket weaver. I don' ; t know if it' ; s a--if there' ; s certain levels or if you' ; re a professional. Estrada: I' ; m a beginner! Karasik: Oh, you are? But you' ; re very involved with the community and so maybe you could tell us, then. You were probably noticing changes, because certainly after the war and then after the Vietnam War, you know, society was changing considerably. Estrada: Oh, yes! Karasik: But when did you--like with the basket weaving and some of that, has that just been later in your retirement years or was it in--and you were raising children? Estrada: I have two sons, yes. I have two sons that are--I don' ; t even know--they' ; re 43 and 40, I think, right now. Forty--no, they' ; re 41 and 44. One' ; s going to be 44 next week. And I have to say that I didn' ; t really become involved in--as much with the tribe until after I retired. So, it' ; s been in the last thirteen plus years, only because I didn' ; t feel like I had enough time. I--I know you were a teacher also. But I--And I know that that just took up so much of my time, and my husband used to tell me, " ; Aren' ; t you done--Aren' ; t you off your job clock yet?" ; Or something like that would always be the remark. Now, he passed away three years ago, and I think that' ; s when I' ; ve really become more involved in the basket weaving, only because I felt like I needed to have something more that occupied me than sitting and thinking about what was going on. But, my cousin Diania Caudell says, " ; Come with me. You' ; re not working today. Come with me. I' ; m going to do a presentation at a school," ; or " ; Come and help me." ; That' ; s how it started. And, when we teach in the schools, we do a different style of basket only because it' ; s a little bit easier and we don' ; t use traditional plants at that time, because you don' ; t know if they' ; ve had any insecticide in them. You don' ; t know if they--you know, how safe or they' ; re going to have a reaction. And that' ; s the last thing you want if you go into a cla--into a group of 50 kids and have to do a--a--a basket and have somebody breaking out with a rash all over them. But so we went to cane products and we do a basic weave, and we make the starts for them. So, that' ; s what I' ; ve been doing now. Because we' ; re doing it in another couple of weeks. We have a couple of groups going on. And then, they just finish the basket. And that has been going with kids from, oh, Montessori aged schools--I mean, Montessori--for preschools all the way through to like eighth grade, and then some--Well, we' ; ve done it with the Cal State San Marcos and San Diego State also, um, college kids. Because they were in their Native American classes and their Native Studies classes, and we did baskets with them. And they would come and visit what we call Indian Rock in Vista. And it' ; s a puberty rock for girls, puberty stage. And so, um, they would come up and the--the schools have been--wa--Cal State San Marcos was involved in putting native plants there. And so, we worked very closely with them. I have a cousin now who was a professor at San Diego State, so we' ; ve become involved with some of her classes too. We also have--we do demonstrations that we call demonstrations where we use the native plants and do the native weave which is a little bit different and a little bit more complex because you have to use the awl in order to get the thread through. And so, we use the--the juncus and the--and the deer grass, and we' ; re going to be doing that tomorrow! At a school in San Luis Rey. Karasik: Oh, there' ; s so much there. One thing--when you said " ; cane," ; I--I' ; m--I' ; m thinking sugar cane. Estrada: Oh, no. It' ; s-- Karasik: Wha-- Estrada: --it' ; s the in--inside part of bamboo. Karasik: Of bamboo! Okay. Estrada: Yeah. They take it out and they compress it. And so, then it--and it--it comes-- Karasik: Now, who' ; s they. Do you get it--? Estrada: It' ; s from--we get it from a company in--in--in Huntington Beach. Karasik: So, it is processed. Estrada: It' ; s processed. Karasik: And they grow those there like they have maybe a ware--a greenhouse of-- Estrada: He gets it into a warehouse. We get it from a guy in a warehouse up there. Karasik: Uh-huh. Estrada: Only because, um, it' ; s just safer-- Karasik: It' ; s trusted. Estrada: --to use with it-- Karasik: --a trusted source, yeah. Estrada: I should have brought it inside because I-- Karasik: I--yeah. Estrada: I had some outside because I had to bring some for Diania! (laughs) Karasik: Oh yeah? And so, the other thing that I think is really interesting when you said " ; Puberty Rock." ; So is this something that was passed down for generations, and do you think that our an--your ancestors, I mean the-- Estrada: I' ; m sure that there were ancestors that went there and you--there' ; s markings. It' ; s on Indian Rock Road in Vista, off of Indian Rock. But it has markings and signs, handprints. But then of course, in the modern day, it' ; s been vandalized and so we' ; ve worked a lot with different companies and different schools and different technicians in order to find out how to remove a lot of that, because you can' ; t just go up there and paint over it like they do on the curbs and the houses and the sides of the walls, now. So, it has--(chuckles) it has poison oak around it, on purpose--(laughs) Karasik: Oh! Estrada: --now, so that you can' ; t go near it. But it was--the--Moro Hill near Camp Pendleton is part of our creation story. And it was from there a short distance to this Indian Rock and that' ; s where girls would go and do their handprints, or do a s--sign that, you know, a-- Karasik: Like a coming-of-age ceremony. Estrada: It' ; s much different than the boys. The boys go through a much rougher one. I mean, ants, and I don' ; t know what else. But the girls did, but-- Karasik: Did you participate? Estrada: I did not participate in that. And I was trying to get that information out of my mom. She reset--she told me that she remembered doing something, but then that' ; s it, you know. I never really--before she passed away--never really found out what the " ; it" ; was or the " ; something" ; was. Karasik: Right. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: And that' ; s―is there some sadness around that, or just wishing that you― Estrada: Oh, I―definitely now, because I' ; m learning so much more about the Native culture and the tribe itself, the intertwining of the families, the knowing that I have cousins beyond cousins, this kind of thing, and trying to have somebody right here (taps her right shoulder) on my little shoulder sometimes that would say, " ; Oh, that' ; s the daughter of your aunt blah-blah-blah. Or your cousin blah," ; and just trying to make sure that I knew. And she guided along that, because she was the--considered the elder in the tribe, when she passed away. And that' ; s been four years, a little bit over four years now. But, attended everything, and so that' ; s when I would learn more. I' ; d say, " ; I' ; ve seen them before, mom, but I don' ; t really remember." ; She says, " ; Well, when we were at your uncle' ; s house in the valley, that part of his family―" ; And I thought, okay. Those were the kinds of things that― Karasik: When you say, " ; I' ; ve seen them," ; you' ; re talking about some of the people that were in your family. Estrada: You would―either the family or people that would be associated with the family. I mean, I was at a Dia de Los Muertos last weekend in Fallbrook, and I thought, " ; Gee, a lot of these people (turning her head from side to side) I recognize." ; And I would stop to think, and I' ; d have to either go up and ask them, " ; Have I met you before?" ; (laughs) Or something like that. So that I would be able to make a connection. Karasik: Mmm. Estrada: And some of them I actually had met before. Karasik: Great. So, was there any, um, ritual that was done in the home, or anything that your parents ever talked about (Estrada shakes her head to indicate no) that was kind of handed down from the ancestors. Because I know there was certainly a time―like you said, sometimes it was more advantageous to be Latin or― Estrada: Mexican. Karasik: ―Mexican. Did you feel like, oh I would--I would love to have known more of the rituals or some of the ceremonies. Estrada: I' ; m just learning a lot about that now. As a family, we did not practice a lot of that. But then―I say we didn' ; t practice a lot of that. What I really feel like, maybe in a roundabout way, we did, because we always had large family gatherings. Now, in our tribe, we' ; ve had a powwow the second weekend of June every year until Covid hit. But it, um,―prior to that, it was―we would be gathering at a--a park, at a water place. I mean we were up at some creek up in Pamu―the Pauma area. Just places where―and it would be huge family gatherings, and, um, because there were eleven in my mom' ; s family, and then their kids and down through that, so― And then, besides the other brothers. One brother--one of my grandfather' ; s brother--had all daughters. I think there' ; s eleven or twelve of those. And then the other brother had six or seven. So that they―it--you know, so you just kind of (makes pulling apart gesture with her hands)―and then when you get these families all together― (makes pushing together gesture with her fists) My grand--my paren--my grandfather' ; s fa--family lived in Oceanside. And so, he was kind of the in-between the San Luis Rey brother and the Cardiff brother. So, it made a―The people in my mother' ; s family―I felt like she was a--a mediator or the in-between person to get to know this brother' ; s kids with this brother' ; s kids (gestures pulling from the left and the right into the center). And that' ; s kind of what I' ; m doing now. Karasik: Interesting. Estrada: Following in the footsteps, I guess you' ; d say. Karasik: Of your mother. How--what a beautiful way to honor her. Estrada: Well, and on top of that, I have my husband' ; s family, who is from Pala and San Jacinto area, and trying to get them to know the rest of this family. So, you know, it' ; s always " ; I' ; m going to call Roberta, because she' ; ll know." ; Well, if Roberta doesn' ; t know, she tries to figure it out and find out who it is, you know, make a connection. Karasik: Right. So, I wanted to―I guess I would use the word " ; pride." ; Was―because the--the times have changed now, di--but, when you were younger or compared to now, was the certain pride about being Native American? And then there were times where that was not talked about, like where you said it was easier to say I' ; m Mexican. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: And, um, whe--where is that now, and h--how has that changed over the years? And do you feel much more--more pride and feel that it' ; s more important? Or― Estrada: I think it' ; s very important, because there are seven Luseño tribes in the area. And San Luis Rey is the only unrecognized tribe. We are still trying to get the recognition process done. But I think we' ; re working at it together. We may not be federally recognized, but we are recognized by the people and the cities in the area. Last night, we went for a proclamation from the city of Oceanside. And, um, I think there were ten or twelve of us there last night, at the City Council meeting. And, um, it just made me feel like, " ; Oh! This is getting good." ; Because now they' ; re becoming more involved. For a while, it' ; s always the same group. And that group is getting up there in years. And we need to pass it along. And we' ; re trying to―right now, I' ; m working with a younger cousin who has, um, aspirations to involve the younger people, the thirty-and-unders people, to get in--more involved. And so, we' ; re working together and getting those―I couldn' ; t believe the amount of people that were there that were in that age group. And then at the―We went--After that, we went to the Inyan--Indian monument that' ; s in San Luis Rey Mission cemetery, in the old cemetery part. There' ; s an Indian monument, and we had quite a large group there, that we put candles out and all the great-grandmothers and uncles and aunts, and so forth, around there. It was very, very touching moment, to feel--to feel that so many of these people―And then, at the end they were even saying, " ; Well, we' ; d like to know more about this. Or maybe learn about that." ; Because there was a period of time when―I know my boys― Karasik: I wanted to ask you about your boys, if they' ; ve claimed their culture. Estrada: My boys did not know a lot about the Native Americans to start with. Karasik: Those two pages in the history book weren' ; t enough in eighth grade? (chuckles) Estrada: No. And it--they were not. And now they' ; re, um―they don' ; t live in the area. They both live in Arizona now. But they' ; re―because of their work, and they will ask questions, though. And they will want, say, " ; Oh, are we going to do that this year? Oh, I think I' ; ll come for powwow. Are we going to have it?" ; " ; Mom, I don' ; t think I' ; m quite sure on what to do with this." ; But they both learned how to make their frybread. (chuckles) Karasik: Yes. Estrada: That' ; s something that was stuck with them, and that was there. So― Karasik: Yeah. I think it' ; s really interesting how throughout the decades, if you will, it' ; s been sort of not in fashion― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: ―to look at your culture. Now, it' ; s very much in fashion. Estrada: Land acknowledgment, right now, is one of the big things. And so, you' ; ll hear that when you go to different, um, occasions, or different presentations. They' ; ll say, " ; We want to acknowledge that we are on Native land." ; We want to― Karasik: Absolutely. Estrada: ―you know. That' ; s more going on now, and you see that in their speeches. Whereas you didn' ; t see that before. Karasik: Absolutely. I--I find that in--in, just when I' ; m on a Zoom―in fact, my name―and then I put what city I' ; m in, and then I put what stolen lands that I occupy. Be― Estrada: Mm-hmm. Right now, we' ; re on (gestures quotes with her fingers) Karasik: Kume― Estrada: ―Native land. We' ; re on Ku―we' ; re―well, yes. We' ; re not on Kumeyaay land. We' ; re on―we' ; re in between, now. It' ; s between the Luseño and the Kumeyaay area. Karasik: And so, Luseño is sort of the umbrella of the six or seven tribes― Estrada: Seven tribes. Karasik: ―that you were talking about. And the recognition―are there certain aspects of it from the government or from the tr--tribe itself? Estrada: Government. Karasik: From the government. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: So, the tribes, for sure, recognize you, but it' ; s some kind of a governmental requirements to― Estrada: Yeah. There' ; s a lot of r--there' ; s a lot of red tape, you may as well say― Karasik: Right, right. Estrada: ―that you have to jump through. Karasik: And--and is― Estrada: You have to have proof of being a government from a--for a period of time. And so, that' ; s one of the things. Karasik: Of being like a sovereign― Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: ―nation or--or― Estrada: Yeah. Karasik: You know. Estrada: Where you have a―where you do things then. So, you' ; ll find if they' ; re doing any activities, you' ; ll find people that are recording that, so they' ; ll have a recording of what' ; s going on now. And― Karasik: Documentation― Estrada: ―documentation of all of that. Karasik: ―every―Right. Estrada: Going back to when we were talking about the basket weaving, we do a lot of things with the--the schools now. And so then, before we start with that, we tell them where we' ; re from. Yes, we know that this part―now, like when we went to do it at San Diego State. Yes, we are on Kumeyaay land right now. We were invited to do this. And what we use for the schools is a Cherokee style. And so, we were given permission from Tekua, so that it was--would be available. Giving―I don' ; t want to say permission―I want to say you recognize where everything came from. You don' ; t say it' ; s yours if it' ; s not yours. Karasik: So, there' ; s a respect for the origin of it, and then there' ; s also a--a, like you said, a recognition or a--um, yeah. I--I' ; m--I' ; m thinking of so many things. I--You said " ; tekua." ; Is that some organization, or what― Estrada: It' ; s the Cherokee, Cherokee band. Karasik: Oh! Okay. And who' ; s that umbrella? Estrada: Cherokee. Karasik: Ok. And then Tekua is underneath― Estrada: Yeah. They' ; re part of the Cherokee. Karasik: ―that. And then are they a little bit more going east, like to Arizona? Or are they― Estrada: No. They' ; re, um, more, um, Oklahoma area. Karasik: Oh, right. Okay. Estrada: In that area. Karasik: Okay. Um, oh, there' ; s just so much there. And you' ; ve really been wonderful to kind of branch into some of the questions that I wanted to ask you. Um, I think I--I want you to tell me how you feel about doing this oral history, and how important it is. What--what are--what kinds of things do you want our descendants to know, and how important will that be for--for them, and that' ; s why we' ; re doing this oral history. And then, maybe you can add in there some of your accomplishments, if there' ; s any regrets that you might have had, um, and kind of how your life path has changed, I think more since your retirement, and how that feels for you to, um, be more involved and have that pride and want to really pass that on and tell this story. Estrada: Well, it' ; s interesting, because I do have two twenty-year-old grandchildren, a sixteen-year-old, and a six-year-old, and trying to make them understand their heritage at the same time. And so, yes, I' ; m doing that with them, but I hope that other people are letting their children know about their culture and heritage, no matter what culture and heritage it is. And, um, having the pride, not hiding yourself. And it' ; s important to know that one of the things that--I mean, San Marcos―I have to say. I don' ; t live in San Marcos. I lived in San Marcos at one time. I did after I was married. Also, I lived there for a short time before we moved into Escondido and then Vista. So, we' ; ve lived in North County. But it' ; s always had a place in my heart. And the people are just so interested in what everybody else is doing. I grew up in this area being friends with people from the egg ranch--Prohoroff' ; s Egg Ranch--and just having, you know, and like all those race horses over here on the other side, and then the farmers on the other side. So, it was a big diverse. And I need to have my boys tell their kids that there' ; s more to it than Minecraft on the computer. Karasik: Uh, absolutely. Estrada: And so― Karasik: So, when you said egg ranch, it was like, " ; oh, there' ; s probably a whole story there." ; So, some of those, the egg ranch and the others that you will mention, they' ; re still here. So that' ; s― Estrada: (shakes her head). Karasik: Oh, they' ; re not. Oh. Estrada: C.S.U. S.M. was--is built― Karasik: On― Estrada: ―on the egg ranch, on Prohoroff' ; s Egg Ranch. Karasik: Oh! On all those lands. How was that? Estrada: It was hard at first. Karasik: Were there burial grounds there as well― Estrada: Um, probably. Karasik: ―that we know of? Estrada: No. Probably, probably. In the extension that they were building at San Marcos High School, they' ; re--in where they' ; re working, where the construction is now, there will be a lot of orange fencing. In the Creek Project in San Marcos, too, there' ; s a lot of orange fencing, because that' ; s all--the Natives lived along the water source, and I know that my mom' ; s aunts worked and--and my mom--I don' ; t think my mom' ; s mother did but--my mom' ; s aunts were in a lot of those camps, cooking for the people that were, you know, working on, or living in these areas, or working in these areas. Karasik: Yeah. I' ; m curious there, because I--I know back, you know, pre-modern technology, they often moved because first they respected the land. And there were different growing periods and animals. There are all kinds of reasons that they would move. And so, that would be then sometimes how the women might go there and then support that, or― Estrada: Ours went--Our tribe went from the ocean to the mountains, because they would go up in the mountains and collect the acorns and so forth. But my grandfather' ; s father was a sheep herder. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Estrada: And he would--would go up in that area. His―My grandmother' ; s brothers were miners and helped at the mining area in the Pala area. So, you know there was this way, and this way. San Luis Rey Mission is built on our Indian village site. The, um―they were given the opportunity to move up to the mountains or just spread (indicates spreading out in groups with her hands) and diverse themselves, and that' ; s what they did. A lot of them went into the farming and into construction and things like that. Karasik: So, you heard about your mother' ; s mother and father, or your--even like your husband' ; s parents and grandparents. Those were just stories that were kind of passed down. Do you feel― Estrada: It' ; s all oral story. Karasik: Yeah. And--and so that oral history, you― Estrada: Is important. Karasik: ―Absolutely. Estrada: It' ; s not all recorded, except (points to her head) up here now. Karasik: And that' ; s a lot why we' ; re doing it here. Estrada: That' ; s a big reason why I' ; m very into what' ; s going on right now. Yes. Karasik: And I think you' ; ve done a fantastic job. Estrada: Oh. Karasik: We could go on and on. I also think it' ; s ironic that, um, Cal State San Marcos, who' ; s doing this project, is on that land. Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: So, in a way, it is--they are giving back. Estrada: They' ; re sharing. Karasik: Which is--is really good. Estrada: The best part of this whole thing is this " ; site" ; (gestures air quotes) that we' ; re in today was actually on the elementary school that I went to. It was our cafeteria. Karasik: This specific building? Estrada: This specific building. It was our cafeteria, and we had our (gestures quotes with her hands) " ; dances" ; inside this building. We did our choir from the stage. Karasik: This stage? Estrada: This stage. The only thing that' ; s different about it now is there used to be a kitchen connected. Because when we were in maybe fourth grade up, you could be a--you could be a cafeteria helper. Karasik: Sure. Estrada: And, um, you' ; d help serve at the lunch line, and I did that. But it― Karasik: It' ; s interesting. When you said " ; dancing." ; So, it was okay to dance. And that dancing, was it more like " ; American culture?" ; Or was― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: It was. Estrada: Yes. It had nothing to do--do (shaking her head) with the Natives at all. Karasik: Okay. Estrada: Mm-hmm. Karasik: Yeah. Um, I could talk about that, but this is your story. Estrada: (laughs) Karasik: Um, so, I' ; m thinking there' ; s not very many regrets. It sounds like you' ; ve really had a wonderful life. Estrada: I think after my retirement, um, I became more involved and then it made me feel even more proud of my heritage. Karasik: Yes. Estrada: And then the--on top of that, um, I made a lot of connections to different family members and my husband' ; s family, and trying to get that all focused on, so that I could intermingle that so I could pass that on to my boys who could pass it on to their children. And I really feel that by doing things like this and coming out and talking about it―I know that when I first started, Diania would say, " ; Let' ; s go." ; Okay. I' ; d go and I' ; d stand in the background. Well, I listened a lot. Well, that' ; s how I learned my Spanish in the first place, because my grandfather sold to―he sold the rabbits and the guy that came to pick up the rabbits couldn' ; t speak English and he would speak Spanish to him. And here would be Roberta by his side. So, I mean, he was one of the influential people, I' ; m learning, that second language that was so important in this area. But, um, now I' ; m interested in trying to pick up the Luseño language, the Chamteela. I can' ; t even say it. Because we' ; re called the Payómkawichum, which are the people of the west. And so, it goes all along the western coast and in--into the mountain. Karasik: And is there anyone still around― Estrada: Yes. Karasik: ―to teach some of that? Estrada: Yes. I have to take my time and go to those classes. Karasik: So― Estrada: Right now, they' ; re just starting some Zoom classes for―they called it for the young people. But there' ; s a lot of people that want to learn it beyond that. So, we' ; ll see what happens. But they' ; re doing them on Zoom right now. Karasik: You― Estrada: Because you need to hear it. Karasik: I' ; m sure, yes. Estrada: You need to hear it. You can' ; t do it from the book― Karasik: You have to― Estrada: ―and read it. And, um, I' ; ve got several little kid' ; s books that I' ; ve gotten from my grandkids that have the English on one side and the Luseño language on the other side and yes, you can do it that way, but you still don' ; t hear the correct pronunciation. Karasik: Yeah. That' ; s really important. The--it' ; s--I' ; m feeling like in some ways it' ; s full circle. You know. It' ; s coming back full circle, and now a--a--the pride is really more known amongst― Estrada: I think it' ; s more evident now and you can feel it. Karasik: And even outside of your culture. Estrada: Yeah, you can see it coming back. Because looking out at the people that were sitting at the City Hall last night, and them paying attention to what was being said about our culture, about ourselves, by the captain at the time. Mel was talking and you just look out at the people and you could see them really into what was being said about what was going on there, so― Karasik: That must feel wonderful. Estrada: Yeah. And so, I mean, it makes you feel. I told them that. I told somebody else, after the Dia de Los Muertos thing last night. I just go, " ; You know, I really feel very proud to be part of this group." ; And it ma--it makes you feel like― Karasik: Right. Estrada: ―you' ; re doing something good. Karasik: Absolutely. I' ; m so happy for you. Estrada: (chuckles) Karasik: And so, I guess, um, in closing, obviously if there' ; s anything else that you' ; d really like to say, but I feel like we' ; ve had a--a really wonderful conversation. And I hope you do as well. Estrada: Yes. Karasik: But if you―you know, there' ; s a lot of work done now too, around, beyond the veil. Like people have passed and sometimes people want to get in touch with them, or wish that they could have, you know, tell― Estrada: Conversations. Karasik: Right! And so, if you had that―if some of our--your descendants had the opportunity to talk with you, which is a lot of what this will be for them― Estrada: Oh, yes. Karasik: ―what--what would you tell them that is most important, the things that they should really pay attention to, and the things that don' ; t be so concerned with. Like, what' ; s the most important thing, particularly involving your culture and how they want to live their lives that--that honors your--your history, your heritage. Estrada: I would say―well, I do this to my boys right now. I tell them, you know, " ; You need to live your life like you feel. But you also need to remember and respect all the adults." ; I mean, as we were raising the two boys, Richard and I did not allow them to speak out of turn to--to them. Not to say harsh things or anything like that. And I think that that' ; s fallen away right now. And that' ; s really something important that needs to be brought back, is the respect for your ancestors. Whether they be living or not. And I hope that this is one of the programs that shows the importance of the lives of people that have been and what they' ; ve gone through. I mean, nothing' ; s been real easy for me, but I have to say that with the support that you have, no matter where it comes from, it' ; s important that they pick it up. Karasik: And how important that support was in your life. Had you been, for example, stayed back in Wisconsin―although they have some pretty strong tribal activities― Estrada: I have―my dad has got a brother-in-law that his whole family, all his nieces and nephews, are really into it. But it' ; s not a―I guess it' ; s because it' ; s not immediately connected. Maybe that' ; s what it is? I mean " ; in bloodline" ; means nothing. Or how much blood―" ; quantum" ; does not mean anything. It means--what means something--what should mean something to them is that they were related to someone who spoke up and tried to help others in the area. And that' ; s what we' ; re doing as a tribe, non-federally recognized tribe. Yes, we have a California recognition, and basically that' ; s because of water rights. But the Califor--the federally recognized tribes, some of them, look down on you now. But who' ; s doing the work? Just keep plugging along and making sure that you' ; re doing what you think is best for yourself and your family. Karasik: That' ; s beautiful. Who' ; s doing the work. Estrada: Yeah. Karasik: Yes. Well, I think this is probably a good place to stop― Estrada: Okay. Karasik: ―all though we could go on. And we' ; ll see what happens with the archives, and what else we might want to do. Like, it would be really wonderful to videotape a basket weaving class. I don' ; t know if that' ; s possible. And I' ; m certainly wanting to attend and--and learn more, but― Estrada: There will be some on November twelfth. That' ; s basket weaving. Karasik: Is that the same day as the Luseño honoring that? Estrada: (nods) Karasik: Yes. Estrada: Yes, it is. Karasik: Oh, and we didn' ; t mention, which I thought was so wonderful, that this happens to be Native American― Estrada: Native American month. Karasik: ―American Heritage month. So, we' ; re celebrating and honoring it. Estrada: (chuckles) Karasik: And we have one of the best elders here. Estrada: Oh, thank you. Karasik: Oh, that was one question I wanted to ask you. The word " ; crone," ; does that come from your culture? Estrada: The what? Karasik: Crone? Estrada: No. Karasik: Okay. It' ; s an elder woman. And I' ; m not really sure where it comes from. I think it might be Celtic or another matriarchal based culture. Estrada: Uh-huh. Karasik: But I think that the respect for the elders in your culture is--is very strong. Estrada: It' ; s very strong. Karasik: And that' ; s really so important. And that--I think what the children―which you have shown in your family and with all your--all your relations. Karasik: Omitaki. Estrada: (laughs) A lot of them. Karasik: Yeah. That' ; s wonderful. Well, thank you so very much. Estrada: And thank you for having me. Karasik: Yes, and again this is Roberta Estrada. And we are in San Marcos at the Heritage Museum here and this is all part of the Cal State San Marcos Archive pro--Oral History program. Estrada: Oral history. Karasik: Yes. Thank you very much! https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Title
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Estrada, Roberta. Interview November 3, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band of Mission Indians. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-31
Subject
The topic of the resource
Basket making
Education, ESL
Endemic plants -- Southern California
Luiseño Indians
Refugees -- Vietnam
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-11-03
Format
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video
Creator
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Roberta Estrada
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Suzy Karasik
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
San Marcos (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Roberta Estrada
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving image
Community history
Native American experience
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/68cc93b349d572359c4680f7c6576237.pdf
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ROBERTA ESTRADA
TRANCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-11-03
Suzy Karasik: Good afternoon. Today is November 3rd, 2022. My name is Suzy Karasik and I
am interviewing Roberta Estrada as part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Roberta
Estrada, thank you for joining me today.
Roberta Estrada: My pleasure.
Karasik: Great. So, I think probably the best part–the best place to start is a little bit of
background—where you were born—and let’s talk about what was your childhood, like when
you went to school, and how you identified yourself. So, I’ll give you plenty of time to go over
that.
Estrada: Well, I was born in–at Camp Pendleton at the old Marine Corps Hospital in 1945, and
I’m the oldest of three children. My parents met at Camp Pendleton because my dad is from the
Midwest, and we’re a very tight-knit family, and did a lot of things together. My mother i–wa–
well, she’s passed away, but my mother was French and Native American from San Luis Rey
area, and I am actually a—let me think now, what—third, fourth-born native of the area. So, I
went to school very, very short period of time in Oceanside where we lived at the time when I
started kindergarten. And my dad says, “No, that’s too close to Camp Pendleton. I’m out of the
Marine Corps now. So, we’re going to move.” So we moved to Vista (chuckles), long ways
away. So, I only attended there for two months. At the time there was no busing for kindergarten
children in Vista, so I didn’t go to school until I went into first grade. Went for two years in Vista
and my dad says, “Met a couple and they said ‘Oh no, you have to put your child in school in
San Marcos because the schools are smaller and we liked them.’” So, he says, “Okay, we’ll shift
you over there.” So, I came to San Marcos in the third grade, and was there until I finished eighth
grade, first graduating class out of what was then Alvin Dunn School, and then—now it’s
changed to La Mirada Academy. Then I went to—we didn’t have high school in San Marcos. So,
the kids that–the children that went to school in San Marcos and finished eighth grade were split
up between Escondido and a few of us went in to Vista, because we were on the border of Vista
and San Marcos. And, it was a much bigger school than San Marcos was when it was built, and
so my dad says, “We’ll get you in there.” Okay. So, my junior year of high school, I switched
back to San Marcos schools with all of the people that–children–all the friends that I had and
been raised with through school, and I finished high school the year that San Marcos became a
city in 1963.
Karasik: Very interesting.
Estrada: Yes, and it’s been—
Karasik: And how was your experience there, like, when you said you were happy to go back to
the school that you’d been with your friends in grade school? And were there other Native
American children there? And let’s talk a little bit about also your Mexican last name and how
you felt that might have been an advantage.
Estrada: Well, at that time, my last name was not Estrada. At that time, my last name was Guy,
very Anglo. So, in school, while I was in school in Vista, there were more of the local Hispanic
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children, and I don’t think I even associated with Native American children being—or picked out
children as being—Native American at that time. All the way through school. I don’t believe I
ever did. And I don’t think that that even happened until after I finished high school and I did go
to college and majored in Spanish, and with a general education for elementary studies. But, I
don’t ever remember connecting to the Native Americans at that time. My husband, his family—
well, his fam–his immediate family was from Anaheim, but his father was from Pala. So, he was
the Native. But he had the Native American in him. And the only reason that he got the Native
American—the last name of Estrada was because that–his grandfather worked for people whose
name was Estrada, and if they went to get any kind of bank accounts or do anything in town,
they had to have a last name. They couldn’t just go by their Native American names. So, they
took the last name of what we call the dueños, and those are the people that had the–the owners
of the ranches and that’s where the Estrada name came from. But, um, my husband was the first
one to get in—no, actually my mother, because her mother was Native American, and her father
was also Native American. And s–their–my grandfather is from one of the prominent families in
Oceanside, the Foussat family. And he is one of three brothers. So, he had a truck farm and we
all learned how to help out on the truck farm. And that’s when I met a lot of the other Natives, I
guess you would say, or—well, actually there weren’t a lot of Natives. There were more
Hispanics than there were Natives that, uh, were in that area.
Karasik: And back in that time, those years, did they k–refer to people as Natives or as Indians.
Estrada: As Indians and if you talked to my father-in-law who was half-blood, he said that they
could not claim being Indian or Native American and–or they would be put on—just like on the
opposite side of the room at the end of the line or whatever. They had to claim–they ha–the
Hispanic background, the Mexican background, in order to be eligible for a lot of things. And—
Karasik: So, this was talked about at home, and you were prepared to know how to best present
yourself when you were in school or those situations.
Estrada: I would say not until I probably was late high school.
Karasik: Mm-hmm. But it was talked about at home.
Estrada: A little bit. Well, be–the first thing that happened was that my father didn’t speak any—
well, my mother spoke Spanish and that–because that was–they didn’t use a lot of the Native
language at the time, and my father didn’t. So, it was, “Speak to the children in English. They
need to learn in English.” And they were married in the Catholic church, but my father had to—
and in San Luis Rey Mission, in fact—but my father had to sign papers to say that my mother
was to be allowed to raise the children as she was raised. So, because he was from the Midwest,
and—
Karasik: She would be allowed—
Estrada: She would be allowed— (nodding)
Karasik: —to raise the children.
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Estrada: Yes. She would be.
Karasik: And this was the San Luis Rey Mission—
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: —Band.
Estrada: They were—well, yes. They were married in–at the San Luis Rey Mission in 1944, and
that’s when–shortly after I was–I was probably about late high school when I–when my mother
was getting more involved with the Native American group. She was more into helping others
than–than trying to–to say “You’re–you’re Native American, Roberta. You need to think about
this. You need to do this. You need to do that.” She never really pointed that out to us. I have a
younger sister and a younger brother, and the three of us have become pretty involved with the
tribe now, of which I am part of the Tribal Council. My husband was part of the Tribal Council
first, but when he could not do it any longer, then I was helping him by sitting by his side to start
with. And then–and then I became part of the Tribal Council itself, aft–no, before he passed
away.
Karasik: I’m curious there. It sounds like, because you became part of the Tribal Council, and
you are now, are women more respected and it’s a matriarchal kind of a society? And how did
that feel for you, looking at other cultures where women weren’t perhaps quite as—
Estrada: Yes. There is more, um,—When you—If you look at our Tribal Council, I think it is a
majority of women. I never even thought about it that way. But yes. And the other thing is that I
would say that there were times when I would say, “Why don’t they let her speak. Why don’t–
Why does he have to talk for her?” You know, when I would meet other families. And I, when I
came—I went away to college, came back, and taught school here in San Marcos. And, um, the
first class I taught was a kindergarten class and they were hiring–I was hired as a bilingual
teacher, because I did have a Spanish major. And I can remember parents bringing their children
in and not being allowed. The–the mother usually was not allowed to speak for the–for–for them.
Or she would speak for the child, but if I asked a question, the mother would always turn and
look to see if it was okay to answer or not.
Karasik: And what year was this?
Estrada: 1976. When I changed my name. Well, actually I came back in ’70—let’s see, ’68.
Karasik: Right.
Estrada: I came back in ’68. I–What I had intended in–When I went to college, I went to college
at a–what was called a county Normal School in the state of Wisconsin, because that was where
my dad was from. I moved there. I lived with family so that I didn’t have to pay the extra in–
tuition for anything. And when I came—and that was an experience in itself, because the— I
mean, my first teaching classes, my student teaching classes, were in one-room schools where
they had everybody. The first room was just kindergarten through fourth grade, and the teacher I
was teaching under was actually the principal of the school too. The second session was
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(chuckles) an eighth grade and that was even more interesting because that eighth grade had
these kids that were much bigger than I was at the time. And, I mean, ‘cuz it was only two years
after I had finished high school. And, uh, then when I–I said, “You know. I like Wisconsin. I like
the changes in the weather and the foliage and all of that. It was just really nice. But I’m a
California girl.” I came back. I went to school when they were first building Cal State San
Bernardino. And I finished off my—Well, first when I came back, I had to get the basics from
Palomar because we skipped right to the last two years of school. And now I had to go back and
get my beginning language, my beginning math, my beginning sciences that the colleges require.
Then I went to—When I finished at Palomar, I went to Cal State San Bernardino for two years
and got my Life Credential for teaching, which is a no more existing thing now, anyhow. I don’t
have to go back to take classes in order to teach. I could—I’ve been retired for thirteen plus years
now. But I could go in and apply and still be eligible to get a job now if I wanted to, which I
don’t because I’m too involved with too many other things.
Karasik: Great. Um, yeah, I’m aware of that. They do not offer the Lifetime anymore. So, what
was it like when you said, “I’m a California girl, and I want to come back.” It sounds like a lot of
things had changed within you as well. And I thought it was really interesting the way that you
noticed how the women didn’t feel as comfortable–comfortable to speak. But what kind of
changes did you see when you came back to the area, and—not even so much what did you see,
but how did it feel for you? Obviously, you were thrilled to be back. But what–what did you kind
of notice then and how did that shape the way that you carried on with your life?
Estrada: Well, I think that I noticed at that time, probably into my maybe second or third year
here, that the parents, the mothers were becoming more involved in what was going on. And they
were more interested in how to help their children at the time. And that was a–a plus. I had a lot
of connections to people that I could call on in the city also that helped out. I mean, yes, we had–
I had friends that would bring their sheep in to show what happened to the sheep when they
sheared it. And one of the boys that graduated from high school with me ended up to be the fire
captain and I would call them and they would come out and do demonstrations during the–that.
So, it just–and parents just really wanted to be a part of what was going on. And I think the
moms became more involved because dads had to be working.
Karasik: Right. And so was that part of the curriculum or was it–were you more free then to say
“Hey, I think it would be a good idea for these children to see these kinds of living situations.”
Estrada: It was integrated into the curriculum. Yes. I’m going to say it that way. Because I could
make a lesson—and I’m not bragging—but I could make a lesson out of, you know, a Hershey’s
candy bar and teaching fractions. But it was something that you just made the children feel like
they were part of your school community then. Other than that, they didn’t, you know—you go
to school, you sit at a desk, you see, you pay attention to what the te—You’re here to learn is
what they were taught. And I have to admit that was one of the things that the parents really
instilled in them. But we would integrate a lot of the—
Karasik: Life skills.
Estrada: —skills. Life skills. And we—
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Karasik: Yes.
Estrada: We made ice cream, so they’d learn how to measure. And we would—we celebrated all
the cultures. You couldn’t celebrate Christmas as Christmas. This was an interesting one. So I
incorporated all the different countries that I could think of and incorporated it into finding out
about different cultures and their traditions at that time. So that was how I helped.
Karasik: And there wasn’t a problem with that?
Estrada: Not as long as I did that. I was—
Karasik: That you knew of.
Estrada: There were—I was observed just like every other teacher had to be observed. I was
observed a lot, and everything—I never had any problems with—and we had to turn in lesson
plans on it. You know, it was just like “you want me to tell you exactly what I’m going to be
doing in every single minute?” “Yes, we do.” “Okay. So, I’ll write down general ones and you
can come in and look any time you want.” (laughs)
Karasik: Right. Well, it sounds like, uh, it was definitely an–a–a–a plus or an advantage for you
to have been from the area, having gone to another area to kind of gain that knowledge including
your school. But that experience. And so would you say that it was definitely a benefit for you to
feel like more imbedded in the community and you had all those—
Estrada: Oh, yes.
Karasik: —connections and that made your life a lot more.
Estrada: And because I taught for thirty-two years, I actually ended up teaching children of
classmates that I had in school. Because a lot a—at that time they weren’t moving out of California.
I mean, they weren’t moving out of San Marcos (laughs) as far as that goes. A lot of people stayed.
Karasik: And people weren’t moving in as much, as well, as they are now.
Estrada: We did–yeah. The–in my later years in teaching, then we had the–the children from
Vietnam, the chil—you know, that–the immigrants from there. So—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Estrada: During that Vietnam time.
Karasik: And I would assume that you integrate that—integrated them into the class. Or how did
you handle some of that?
Estrada: (laughs) You’re going to laugh, but I would speak Spanish to them. And I forget–I forget
that wasn’t their second lan–their first language. And I would—but I—uh, there’s just one little–
one little Vietnamese girl that sticks out in my mind so vividly is because she did not speak English
when she started. So, we ran the—well, we were already using an ESL program because of going
in to—well, having mostly Spanish children in the classroom at the time. And then, um, she made
such a tremendous advance. By the time she graduated from high school, she was Valedictorian.
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Karasik: Oh, isn’t that great!
Estrada: Yeah. So, in her–in her twelve years, you know, she was, um–she just moved right up the
ladder. But it didn’t hurt her at all that we were speaking to her in Spanish. She picked up some!
(laughs)
Karasik: At a young age, yes.
Estrada: Uh-huh.
Karasik: It’s a lot easier. Well, I’d kind of like to move on to—I mean there’s—we could talk
about how your work has changed since then. But I do happen to know that you’re a–a basket
weaver. I don’t know if it’s a—if there’s certain levels or if you’re a professional.
Estrada: I’m a beginner!
Karasik: Oh, you are? But you’re very involved with the community and so maybe you could tell
us, then. You were probably noticing changes, because certainly after the war and then after the
Vietnam War, you know, society was changing considerably.
Estrada: Oh, yes!
Karasik: But when did you—like with the basket weaving and some of that, has that just been later
in your retirement years or was it in—and you were raising children?
Estrada: I have two sons, yes. I have two sons that are—I don’t even know—they’re 43 and 40, I
think, right now. Forty—no, they’re 41 and 44. One’s going to be 44 next week. And I have to say
that I didn’t really become involved in–as much with the tribe until after I retired. So, it’s been in
the last thirteen plus years, only because I didn’t feel like I had enough time. I–I know you were a
teacher also. But I–And I know that that just took up so much of my time, and my husband used
to tell me, “Aren’t you done—Aren’t you off your job clock yet?” Or something like that would
always be the remark. Now, he passed away three years ago, and I think that’s when I’ve really
become more involved in the basket weaving, only because I felt like I needed to have something
more that occupied me than sitting and thinking about what was going on. But, my cousin Diania
Caudell says, “Come with me. You’re not working today. Come with me. I’m going to do a
presentation at a school,” or “Come and help me.” That’s how it started. And, when we teach in
the schools, we do a different style of basket only because it’s a little bit easier and we don’t use
traditional plants at that time, because you don’t know if they’ve had any insecticide in them. You
don’t know if they—you know, how safe or they’re going to have a reaction. And that’s the last
thing you want if you go into a cla–into a group of 50 kids and have to do a–a–a basket and have
somebody breaking out with a rash all over them. But so we went to cane products and we do a
basic weave, and we make the starts for them. So, that’s what I’ve been doing now. Because we’re
doing it in another couple of weeks. We have a couple of groups going on. And then, they just
finish the basket. And that has been going with kids from, oh, Montessori aged schools—I mean,
Montessori–for preschools all the way through to like eighth grade, and then some—Well, we’ve
done it with the Cal State San Marcos and San Diego State also, um, college kids. Because they
were in their Native American classes and their Native Studies classes, and we did baskets with
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them. And they would come and visit what we call Indian Rock in Vista. And it’s a puberty rock
for girls, puberty stage. And so, um, they would come up and the–the schools have been–wa–Cal
State San Marcos was involved in putting native plants there. And so, we worked very closely with
them. I have a cousin now who was a professor at San Diego State, so we’ve become involved
with some of her classes too. We also have—we do demonstrations that we call demonstrations
where we use the native plants and do the native weave which is a little bit different and a little bit
more complex because you have to use the awl in order to get the thread through. And so, we use
the–the juncus and the–and the deer grass, and we’re going to be doing that tomorrow! At a school
in San Luis Rey.
Karasik: Oh, there’s so much there. One thing—when you said “cane,” I–I’m–I’m thinking sugar
cane.
Estrada: Oh, no. It’s—
Karasik: Wha—
Estrada: —it’s the in–inside part of bamboo.
Karasik: Of bamboo! Okay.
Estrada: Yeah. They take it out and they compress it. And so, then it—and it–it comes—
Karasik: Now, who’s they. Do you get it—?
Estrada: It’s from—we get it from a company in–in–in Huntington Beach.
Karasik: So, it is processed.
Estrada: It’s processed.
Karasik: And they grow those there like they have maybe a ware–a greenhouse of—
Estrada: He gets it into a warehouse. We get it from a guy in a warehouse up there.
Karasik: Uh-huh.
Estrada: Only because, um, it’s just safer—
Karasik: It’s trusted.
Estrada: —to use with it—
Karasik: —a trusted source, yeah.
Estrada: I should have brought it inside because I—
Karasik: I—yeah.
Estrada: I had some outside because I had to bring some for Diania! (laughs)
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Karasik: Oh yeah? And so, the other thing that I think is really interesting when you said “Puberty
Rock.” So is this something that was passed down for generations, and do you think that our an—
your ancestors, I mean the—
Estrada: I’m sure that there were ancestors that went there and you—there’s markings. It’s on
Indian Rock Road in Vista, off of Indian Rock. But it has markings and signs, handprints. But then
of course, in the modern day, it’s been vandalized and so we’ve worked a lot with different
companies and different schools and different technicians in order to find out how to remove a lot
of that, because you can’t just go up there and paint over it like they do on the curbs and the houses
and the sides of the walls, now. So, it has–(chuckles) it has poison oak around it, on purpose—
(laughs)
Karasik: Oh!
Estrada: —now, so that you can’t go near it. But it was–the—Moro Hill near Camp Pendleton is
part of our creation story. And it was from there a short distance to this Indian Rock and that’s
where girls would go and do their handprints, or do a s–sign that, you know, a—
Karasik: Like a coming-of-age ceremony.
Estrada: It’s much different than the boys. The boys go through a much rougher one. I mean, ants,
and I don’t know what else. But the girls did, but—
Karasik: Did you participate?
Estrada: I did not participate in that. And I was trying to get that information out of my mom. She
reset—she told me that she remembered doing something, but then that’s it, you know. I never
really—before she passed away—never really found out what the “it” was or the “something” was.
Karasik: Right.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: And that’s―is there some sadness around that, or just wishing that you―
Estrada: Oh, I―definitely now, because I’m learning so much more about the Native culture and
the tribe itself, the intertwining of the families, the knowing that I have cousins beyond cousins,
this kind of thing, and trying to have somebody right here (taps her right shoulder) on my little
shoulder sometimes that would say, “Oh, that’s the daughter of your aunt blah-blah-blah. Or
your cousin blah,” and just trying to make sure that I knew. And she guided along that, because
she was the–considered the elder in the tribe, when she passed away. And that’s been four years,
a little bit over four years now. But, attended everything, and so that’s when I would learn more.
I’d say, “I’ve seen them before, mom, but I don’t really remember.” She says, “Well, when we
were at your uncle’s house in the valley, that part of his family―” And I thought, okay. Those
were the kinds of things that―
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Karasik: When you say, “I’ve seen them,” you’re talking about some of the people that were in
your family.
Estrada: You would―either the family or people that would be associated with the family. I
mean, I was at a Dia de Los Muertos last weekend in Fallbrook, and I thought, “Gee, a lot of
these people (turning her head from side to side) I recognize.” And I would stop to think, and I’d
have to either go up and ask them, “Have I met you before?” (laughs) Or something like that. So
that I would be able to make a connection.
Karasik: Mmm.
Estrada: And some of them I actually had met before.
Karasik: Great. So, was there any, um, ritual that was done in the home, or anything that your
parents ever talked about (Estrada shakes her head to indicate no) that was kind of handed down
from the ancestors. Because I know there was certainly a time―like you said, sometimes it was
more advantageous to be Latin or―
Estrada: Mexican.
Karasik: ―Mexican. Did you feel like, oh I would–I would love to have known more of the
rituals or some of the ceremonies.
Estrada: I’m just learning a lot about that now. As a family, we did not practice a lot of that. But
then―I say we didn’t practice a lot of that. What I really feel like, maybe in a roundabout way,
we did, because we always had large family gatherings. Now, in our tribe, we’ve had a powwow
the second weekend of June every year until Covid hit. But it, um,―prior to that, it was―we
would be gathering at a–a park, at a water place. I mean we were up at some creek up in
Pamu―the Pauma area. Just places where―and it would be huge family gatherings, and, um,
because there were eleven in my mom’s family, and then their kids and down through that, so―
And then, besides the other brothers. One brother–one of my grandfather’s brother—had all
daughters. I think there’s eleven or twelve of those. And then the other brother had six or seven.
So that they―it–you know, so you just kind of (makes pulling apart gesture with her hands)―and
then when you get these families all together― (makes pushing together gesture with her fists)
My grand–my paren–my grandfather’s fa–family lived in Oceanside. And so, he was kind of the
in-between the San Luis Rey brother and the Cardiff brother. So, it made a―The people in my
mother’s family―I felt like she was a–a mediator or the in-between person to get to know this
brother’s kids with this brother’s kids (gestures pulling from the left and the right into the
center). And that’s kind of what I’m doing now.
Karasik: Interesting.
Estrada: Following in the footsteps, I guess you’d say.
Karasik: Of your mother. How–what a beautiful way to honor her.
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Estrada: Well, and on top of that, I have my husband’s family, who is from Pala and San Jacinto
area, and trying to get them to know the rest of this family. So, you know, it’s always “I’m going
to call Roberta, because she’ll know.” Well, if Roberta doesn’t know, she tries to figure it out
and find out who it is, you know, make a connection.
Karasik: Right. So, I wanted to―I guess I would use the word “pride.” Was―because the–the
times have changed now, di–but, when you were younger or compared to now, was the certain
pride about being Native American? And then there were times where that was not talked about,
like where you said it was easier to say I’m Mexican.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: And, um, whe–where is that now, and h–how has that changed over the years? And do
you feel much more–more pride and feel that it’s more important? Or―
Estrada: I think it’s very important, because there are seven Luseño tribes in the area. And San
Luis Rey is the only unrecognized tribe. We are still trying to get the recognition process done.
But I think we’re working at it together. We may not be federally recognized, but we are
recognized by the people and the cities in the area. Last night, we went for a proclamation from
the city of Oceanside. And, um, I think there were ten or twelve of us there last night, at the City
Council meeting. And, um, it just made me feel like, “Oh! This is getting good.” Because now
they’re becoming more involved. For a while, it’s always the same group. And that group is
getting up there in years. And we need to pass it along. And we’re trying to―right now, I’m
working with a younger cousin who has, um, aspirations to involve the younger people, the
thirty-and-unders people, to get in–more involved. And so, we’re working together and getting
those―I couldn’t believe the amount of people that were there that were in that age group. And
then at the―We went–After that, we went to the Inyan–Indian monument that’s in San Luis Rey
Mission cemetery, in the old cemetery part. There’s an Indian monument, and we had quite a
large group there, that we put candles out and all the great-grandmothers and uncles and aunts,
and so forth, around there. It was very, very touching moment, to feel–to feel that so many of
these people―And then, at the end they were even saying, “Well, we’d like to know more about
this. Or maybe learn about that.” Because there was a period of time when―I know my boys―
Karasik: I wanted to ask you about your boys, if they’ve claimed their culture.
Estrada: My boys did not know a lot about the Native Americans to start with.
Karasik: Those two pages in the history book weren’t enough in eighth grade? (chuckles)
Estrada: No. And it–they were not. And now they’re, um―they don’t live in the area. They both
live in Arizona now. But they’re―because of their work, and they will ask questions, though.
And they will want, say, “Oh, are we going to do that this year? Oh, I think I’ll come for
powwow. Are we going to have it?” “Mom, I don’t think I’m quite sure on what to do with this.”
But they both learned how to make their frybread. (chuckles)
Karasik: Yes.
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Estrada: That’s something that was stuck with them, and that was there. So―
Karasik: Yeah. I think it’s really interesting how throughout the decades, if you will, it’s been
sort of not in fashion―
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: ―to look at your culture. Now, it’s very much in fashion.
Estrada: Land acknowledgment, right now, is one of the big things. And so, you’ll hear that
when you go to different, um, occasions, or different presentations. They’ll say, “We want to
acknowledge that we are on Native land.” We want to―
Karasik: Absolutely.
Estrada: ―you know. That’s more going on now, and you see that in their speeches. Whereas you
didn’t see that before.
Karasik: Absolutely. I–I find that in–in, just when I’m on a Zoom―in fact, my name―and then I
put what city I’m in, and then I put what stolen lands that I occupy. Be―
Estrada: Mm-hmm. Right now, we’re on (gestures quotes with her fingers)
Karasik: Kume―
Estrada: ―Native land. We’re on Ku―we’re―well, yes. We’re not on Kumeyaay land. We’re
on―we’re in between, now. It’s between the Luseño and the Kumeyaay area.
Karasik: And so, Luseño is sort of the umbrella of the six or seven tribes―
Estrada: Seven tribes.
Karasik: ―that you were talking about. And the recognition―are there certain aspects of it from
the government or from the tr–tribe itself?
Estrada: Government.
Karasik: From the government.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: So, the tribes, for sure, recognize you, but it’s some kind of a governmental
requirements to―
Estrada: Yeah. There’s a lot of r–there’s a lot of red tape, you may as well say―
Karasik: Right, right.
Estrada: ―that you have to jump through.
Karasik: And–and is―
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Estrada: You have to have proof of being a government from a–for a period of time. And so,
that’s one of the things.
Karasik: Of being like a sovereign―
Estrada: Mm-hmm.
Karasik: ―nation or–or―
Estrada: Yeah.
Karasik: You know.
Estrada: Where you have a―where you do things then. So, you’ll find if they’re doing any
activities, you’ll find people that are recording that, so they’ll have a recording of what’s going
on now. And―
Karasik: Documentation―
Estrada: ―documentation of all of that.
Karasik: ―every―Right.
Estrada: Going back to when we were talking about the basket weaving, we do a lot of things
with the–the schools now. And so then, before we start with that, we tell them where we’re from.
Yes, we know that this part―now, like when we went to do it at San Diego State. Yes, we are on
Kumeyaay land right now. We were invited to do this. And what we use for the schools is a
Cherokee style. And so, we were given permission from Tekua, so that it was–would be
available. Giving―I don’t want to say permission―I want to say you recognize where
everything came from. You don’t say it’s yours if it’s not yours.
Karasik: So, there’s a respect for the origin of it, and then there’s also a–a, like you said, a
recognition or a–um, yeah. I–I’m–I’m thinking of so many things. I–You said “tekua.” Is that
some organization, or what―
Estrada: It’s the Cherokee, Cherokee band.
Karasik: Oh! Okay. And who’s that umbrella?
Estrada: Cherokee.
Karasik: Ok. And then Tekua is underneath―
Estrada: Yeah. They’re part of the Cherokee.
Karasik: ―that. And then are they a little bit more going east, like to Arizona? Or are they―
Estrada: No. They’re, um, more, um, Oklahoma area.
Karasik: Oh, right. Okay.
Estrada: In that area.
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Karasik: Okay. Um, oh, there’s just so much there. And you’ve really been wonderful to kind of
branch into some of the questions that I wanted to ask you. Um, I think I–I want you to tell me
how you feel about doing this oral history, and how important it is. What–what are–what kinds
of things do you want our descendants to know, and how important will that be for–for them, and
that’s why we’re doing this oral history. And then, maybe you can add in there some of your
accomplishments, if there’s any regrets that you might have had, um, and kind of how your life
path has changed, I think more since your retirement, and how that feels for you to, um, be more
involved and have that pride and want to really pass that on and tell this story.
Estrada: Well, it’s interesting, because I do have two twenty-year-old grandchildren, a sixteenyear-old, and a six-year-old, and trying to make them understand their heritage at the same time.
And so, yes, I’m doing that with them, but I hope that other people are letting their children
know about their culture and heritage, no matter what culture and heritage it is. And, um, having
the pride, not hiding yourself. And it’s important to know that one of the things that—I mean,
San Marcos―I have to say. I don’t live in San Marcos. I lived in San Marcos at one time. I did
after I was married. Also, I lived there for a short time before we moved into Escondido and then
Vista. So, we’ve lived in North County. But it’s always had a place in my heart. And the people
are just so interested in what everybody else is doing. I grew up in this area being friends with
people from the egg ranch—Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch—and just having, you know, and like all
those race horses over here on the other side, and then the farmers on the other side. So, it was a
big diverse. And I need to have my boys tell their kids that there’s more to it than Minecraft on
the computer.
Karasik: Uh, absolutely.
Estrada: And so―
Karasik: So, when you said egg ranch, it was like, “oh, there’s probably a whole story there.” So,
some of those, the egg ranch and the others that you will mention, they’re still here. So that’s―
Estrada: (shakes her head).
Karasik: Oh, they’re not. Oh.
Estrada: C.S.U. S.M. was–is built―
Karasik: On―
Estrada: ―on the egg ranch, on Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch.
Karasik: Oh! On all those lands. How was that?
Estrada: It was hard at first.
Karasik: Were there burial grounds there as well―
Estrada: Um, probably.
Karasik: ―that we know of?
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Estrada: No. Probably, probably. In the extension that they were building at San Marcos High
School, they’re–in where they’re working, where the construction is now, there will be a lot of
orange fencing. In the Creek Project in San Marcos, too, there’s a lot of orange fencing, because
that’s all—the Natives lived along the water source, and I know that my mom’s aunts worked
and–and my mom—I don’t think my mom’s mother did but—my mom’s aunts were in a lot of
those camps, cooking for the people that were, you know, working on, or living in these areas, or
working in these areas.
Karasik: Yeah. I’m curious there, because I–I know back, you know, pre-modern technology,
they often moved because first they respected the land. And there were different growing periods
and animals. There are all kinds of reasons that they would move. And so, that would be then
sometimes how the women might go there and then support that, or―
Estrada: Ours went–Our tribe went from the ocean to the mountains, because they would go up
in the mountains and collect the acorns and so forth. But my grandfather’s father was a sheep
herder.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Estrada: And he would–would go up in that area. His―My grandmother’s brothers were miners
and helped at the mining area in the Pala area. So, you know there was this way, and this way.
San Luis Rey Mission is built on our Indian village site. The, um―they were given the
opportunity to move up to the mountains or just spread (indicates spreading out in groups with
her hands) and diverse themselves, and that’s what they did. A lot of them went into the farming
and into construction and things like that.
Karasik: So, you heard about your mother’s mother and father, or your–even like your husband’s
parents and grandparents. Those were just stories that were kind of passed down. Do you feel―
Estrada: It’s all oral story.
Karasik: Yeah. And–and so that oral history, you―
Estrada: Is important.
Karasik: ―Absolutely.
Estrada: It’s not all recorded, except (points to her head) up here now.
Karasik: And that’s a lot why we’re doing it here.
Estrada: That’s a big reason why I’m very into what’s going on right now. Yes.
Karasik: And I think you’ve done a fantastic job.
Estrada: Oh.
Karasik: We could go on and on. I also think it’s ironic that, um, Cal State San Marcos, who’s
doing this project, is on that land.
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Estrada: Mm-hmm.
Karasik: So, in a way, it is–they are giving back.
Estrada: They’re sharing.
Karasik: Which is–is really good.
Estrada: The best part of this whole thing is this “site” (gestures air quotes) that we’re in today
was actually on the elementary school that I went to. It was our cafeteria.
Karasik: This specific building?
Estrada: This specific building. It was our cafeteria, and we had our (gestures quotes with her
hands) “dances” inside this building. We did our choir from the stage.
Karasik: This stage?
Estrada: This stage. The only thing that’s different about it now is there used to be a kitchen
connected. Because when we were in maybe fourth grade up, you could be a–you could be a
cafeteria helper.
Karasik: Sure.
Estrada: And, um, you’d help serve at the lunch line, and I did that. But it―
Karasik: It’s interesting. When you said “dancing.” So, it was okay to dance. And that dancing,
was it more like “American culture?” Or was―
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: It was.
Estrada: Yes. It had nothing to do–do (shaking her head) with the Natives at all.
Karasik: Okay.
Estrada: Mm-hmm.
Karasik: Yeah. Um, I could talk about that, but this is your story.
Estrada: (laughs)
Karasik: Um, so, I’m thinking there’s not very many regrets. It sounds like you’ve really had a
wonderful life.
Estrada: I think after my retirement, um, I became more involved and then it made me feel even
more proud of my heritage.
Karasik: Yes.
Estrada: And then the–on top of that, um, I made a lot of connections to different family
members and my husband’s family, and trying to get that all focused on, so that I could
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intermingle that so I could pass that on to my boys who could pass it on to their children. And I
really feel that by doing things like this and coming out and talking about it―I know that when I
first started, Diania would say, “Let’s go.” Okay. I’d go and I’d stand in the background. Well, I
listened a lot. Well, that’s how I learned my Spanish in the first place, because my grandfather
sold to―he sold the rabbits and the guy that came to pick up the rabbits couldn’t speak English
and he would speak Spanish to him. And here would be Roberta by his side. So, I mean, he was
one of the influential people, I’m learning, that second language that was so important in this
area. But, um, now I’m interested in trying to pick up the Luseño language, the Chamteela. I
can’t even say it. Because we’re called the Payómkawichum, which are the people of the west.
And so, it goes all along the western coast and in–into the mountain.
Karasik: And is there anyone still around―
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: ―to teach some of that?
Estrada: Yes. I have to take my time and go to those classes.
Karasik: So―
Estrada: Right now, they’re just starting some Zoom classes for―they called it for the young
people. But there’s a lot of people that want to learn it beyond that. So, we’ll see what happens.
But they’re doing them on Zoom right now.
Karasik: You―
Estrada: Because you need to hear it.
Karasik: I’m sure, yes.
Estrada: You need to hear it. You can’t do it from the book―
Karasik: You have to―
Estrada: ―and read it. And, um, I’ve got several little kid’s books that I’ve gotten from my
grandkids that have the English on one side and the Luseño language on the other side and yes,
you can do it that way, but you still don’t hear the correct pronunciation.
Karasik: Yeah. That’s really important. The–it’s–I’m feeling like in some ways it’s full circle.
You know. It’s coming back full circle, and now a–a–the pride is really more known amongst―
Estrada: I think it’s more evident now and you can feel it.
Karasik: And even outside of your culture.
Estrada: Yeah, you can see it coming back. Because looking out at the people that were sitting at
the City Hall last night, and them paying attention to what was being said about our culture,
about ourselves, by the captain at the time. Mel was talking and you just look out at the people
and you could see them really into what was being said about what was going on there, so―
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Karasik: That must feel wonderful.
Estrada: Yeah. And so, I mean, it makes you feel. I told them that. I told somebody else, after the
Dia de Los Muertos thing last night. I just go, “You know, I really feel very proud to be part of
this group.” And it ma–it makes you feel like―
Karasik: Right.
Estrada: ―you’re doing something good.
Karasik: Absolutely. I’m so happy for you.
Estrada: (chuckles)
Karasik: And so, I guess, um, in closing, obviously if there’s anything else that you’d really like
to say, but I feel like we’ve had a–a really wonderful conversation. And I hope you do as well.
Estrada: Yes.
Karasik: But if you―you know, there’s a lot of work done now too, around, beyond the veil.
Like people have passed and sometimes people want to get in touch with them, or wish that they
could have, you know, tell―
Estrada: Conversations.
Karasik: Right! And so, if you had that―if some of our–your descendants had the opportunity to
talk with you, which is a lot of what this will be for them―
Estrada: Oh, yes.
Karasik: ―what–what would you tell them that is most important, the things that they should
really pay attention to, and the things that don’t be so concerned with. Like, what’s the most
important thing, particularly involving your culture and how they want to live their lives that–
that honors your–your history, your heritage.
Estrada: I would say―well, I do this to my boys right now. I tell them, you know, “You need to
live your life like you feel. But you also need to remember and respect all the adults.” I mean, as
we were raising the two boys, Richard and I did not allow them to speak out of turn to–to them.
Not to say harsh things or anything like that. And I think that that’s fallen away right now. And
that’s really something important that needs to be brought back, is the respect for your ancestors.
Whether they be living or not. And I hope that this is one of the programs that shows the
importance of the lives of people that have been and what they’ve gone through. I mean,
nothing’s been real easy for me, but I have to say that with the support that you have, no matter
where it comes from, it’s important that they pick it up.
Karasik: And how important that support was in your life. Had you been, for example, stayed
back in Wisconsin―although they have some pretty strong tribal activities―
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Estrada: I have―my dad has got a brother-in-law that his whole family, all his nieces and
nephews, are really into it. But it’s not a―I guess it’s because it’s not immediately connected.
Maybe that’s what it is? I mean “in bloodline” means nothing. Or how much blood―”quantum”
does not mean anything. It means–what means something–what should mean something to them
is that they were related to someone who spoke up and tried to help others in the area. And that’s
what we’re doing as a tribe, non-federally recognized tribe. Yes, we have a California
recognition, and basically that’s because of water rights. But the Califor–the federally recognized
tribes, some of them, look down on you now. But who’s doing the work? Just keep plugging
along and making sure that you’re doing what you think is best for yourself and your family.
Karasik: That’s beautiful. Who’s doing the work.
Estrada: Yeah.
Karasik: Yes. Well, I think this is probably a good place to stop―
Estrada: Okay.
Karasik: ―all though we could go on. And we’ll see what happens with the archives, and what
else we might want to do. Like, it would be really wonderful to videotape a basket weaving class.
I don’t know if that’s possible. And I’m certainly wanting to attend and–and learn more, but―
Estrada: There will be some on November twelfth. That’s basket weaving.
Karasik: Is that the same day as the Luseño honoring that?
Estrada: (nods)
Karasik: Yes.
Estrada: Yes, it is.
Karasik: Oh, and we didn’t mention, which I thought was so wonderful, that this happens to be
Native American―
Estrada: Native American month.
Karasik: ―American Heritage month. So, we’re celebrating and honoring it.
Estrada: (chuckles)
Karasik: And we have one of the best elders here.
Estrada: Oh, thank you.
Karasik: Oh, that was one question I wanted to ask you. The word “crone,” does that come from
your culture?
Estrada: The what?
Karasik: Crone?
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Estrada: No.
Karasik: Okay. It’s an elder woman. And I’m not really sure where it comes from. I think it
might be Celtic or another matriarchal based culture.
Estrada: Uh-huh.
Karasik: But I think that the respect for the elders in your culture is–is very strong.
Estrada: It’s very strong.
Karasik: And that’s really so important. And that–I think what the children―which you have
shown in your family and with all your–all your relations.
Karasik: Omitaki.
Estrada: (laughs) A lot of them.
Karasik: Yeah. That’s wonderful. Well, thank you so very much.
Estrada: And thank you for having me.
Karasik: Yes, and again this is Roberta Estrada. And we are in San Marcos at the Heritage
Museum here and this is all part of the Cal State San Marcos Archive pro–Oral History program.
Estrada: Oral history.
Karasik: Yes. Thank you very much!
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GLOSSARY
Alvin Dunn School (pg.1)
Cardiff (pg.9)
Caudell, Diania (pg.6)
Chamteela (pg.16)
Creek Project (pg.14)
Dia de Los Muertos (pg.9)
Duenos (pg.2)
Foussat (pg.2)
Frybread (pg. 11)
Indian Rock Road (pg.8)
Kumeyaay (pg.11)
La Mirada Academy (pg.1)
Life Credential (pg.4)
Luseño (pg.10)
Marine Corps Hospital (pg.1)
Mel (pg.17)
Moro Hill (pg.8)
Normal School (pg.4)
Omitaki (pg.19)
Pala (pg.2)
Palomar (pg.4)
Pamu (pg.9)
Pauma (pg.9)
Payómkawichum (pg.16)
Prohoroff’s Egg Ranch (pg.13)
San Jacinto (pg.10)
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San Luis Rey Mission (pg.2)
San Marcos High School (pg.14)
Tekua (pg.12)
Tribal Council (pg.3)
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�
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Estrada, Roberta. Interview Transcript. November 3. 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
Roberta Estrada is a Luiseño woman from the San Luis Rey Mission Band of Mission Indians. She grew up in Vista, CA and was educated throughout the North County school districts. She attended college, earning both Spanish and General Education degrees. She taught ESL in the San Marcos Unified District for thirty-two years. After retirement, she became more involved in the Indigenous community and learned basketry. She accompanies her cousin, Diania Caudell, on school group presentations and teaches audiences about basket-weaving and native plants. Estrada is proud of her Luiseño heritage, and continues reconnecting with family members and getting involved in Indigenous community activities. Estrada also discusses in her interview, the process of tribal recognition with the United States government, teaching English to Vietnam refugees, and the Prohoroff Chicken Ranch.
This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos.
Creator
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Roberta Estrada
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Suzy Karasik
Melissa Martin
Date
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2022-11-03
Subject
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Basket making
Education, ESL
Endemic plants -- Southern California
Luiseño Indians
Refugees -- Vietnam
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San Marcos (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Roberta Estrada
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Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found.
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text
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EstradaRoberta_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-03_transcript
Community history
Native American experience
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience