6 10 182 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Madeleine Meyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Floyd Lai OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LaiFloyd_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-11_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. student activism;advocacy;intersectionality;identity OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Lai, Floyd. Interview April 10th, 2023 SC027-49 00:51:43 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Education, Higher Human rights Civil rights San Marcos (Calif.) student activism ; advocacy ; intersectionality ; identity Floyd Lai Madeleine Meyer Video LaiFloyd_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-11_access.mp4 1:|12(14)|23(3)|42(9)|55(3)|67(18)|80(14)|100(16)|113(8)|124(10)|138(13)|151(17)|166(2)|179(9)|193(5)|208(8)|223(8)|234(15)|248(10)|261(9)|274(2)|287(7)|302(2)|315(5)|330(6)|343(6)|358(2)|372(14)|385(11)|399(4)|415(9)|431(8)|440(17)|452(13)|467(15)|482(5)|499(8)|513(10)|528(8)|543(9)|557(15)|571(6)|587(10)|601(16)|614(16)|632(16)|645(2)|661(9)|676(4)|691(11)|704(6)|717(11)|735(6)|736(1) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/cdc9cc3afd3d45aade44b574d2e95ada.mp4 Other video 0 Introduction and Background Interviewer Madeleine Meyer introduces Floyd Lai, who was Director of the Cross-Cultural Center from 2011 to 2023. He talks briefly about his family background and childhood, as well as his identity as a Chinese American. Lai then describes his educational journey and how he originally went to school for environmental engineering. After a lackluster experience, Lai decided to switch career paths after interning at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irivine. 0 375 Student Activism and Social Justice Despite not having a specific background in courses related to activism or advocacy, Lai describes how the Cross-Cultural Center and different lived experiences impacted his perception. Self-exploration is defined as a major contributor to his understanding of accepting peoples differences. Lai also discusses how living as an Asian American has impacted his goals for activism and social justice. 0 648 The Earlier CCC Meyer asks Lai to remember the CCC when he first arrived in 2011. Back then, the University Student Union had not yet been built, and several student organizations such as the Black Student Center were not yet founded. Coming from University of California Irvine, with one of the first Cross-Cultural Centers, Lai describes how his previous experiences impacted his work at the CCC. As the center expanded, Lai recalls more and more programs and spaces began ; including the Activist Lab, Critical Cougars, and others. Through all of these changes, Lai considers the student body to be more transformative. Every year brings new students, new ideas, and new opportunities for growth. 0 1034 The CCC Programs Lai briefly describes a few of the programs that the CCC offered throughout his tenure. Lai also identifies the four specific areas of focus: developing cultural competency, activism, advocacy, and critical engagement across social identity groups. Some of the programs that facilitate these goals include: Critical Cougars: Unlearn, Relarn, the Activist Lab, as well as the expansion of identity-based student organizations such as an APIDA (Asian Pacific Islander Desi American) center at CSUSM. 0 1540 Personal Growth from the CCC Lai considers the role that the CCC has impacted his personal and professional expansion. Beginning with an internship, and later six years of work, at the University of California's Cross-Cultural Center, Lai describes how different programs, roles, and students have impacted him. He attributes his work at the CCC to expanding his understanding of disabilities, for instance. 0 1810 Challenges at the CCC Considering the different challenges in his tenure as Director of the CCC, Lai recalls how the pandemic forces the entire campus to switch online, and how well it was handled. He also discusses the pushback against Critical Race Theory, as well as to different outreach programs. Overall, Lai stresses his goal in educating the next generation, and that challenges have not deterred him. 0 2194 The CCC Coexistence with Student Identity Spaces As more and more student identity-based spaces open, Meyer questions Lai regarding the role of the CCC. Lai addresses that the CCC has continued to coexist with the expansion of other student centers because of its role in providing a space for those students who do not feel represented elsewhere. Currently, with approval of an APIDA center, Lai acknowledges that the role of the CCC will change as its demographics shift, yet the purpose to advocate for activism and inclusivity will remain. 0 2643 The Future of the CCC Lai considers the role of the CCC in the future, in an ideal world. He considers the financial aspects of being a student, and how the CCC could better facilitate student-incomes. Regarding disabled students, he also considers the potential for programs that coexist and yet go beyond those offered with Disabled Student Services (DSS). 0 2895 Some Favorite Memories From his time as Director, Lai recalls some favorite memories. Working with different student graduate assistants are some of his highlights. He specifically enjoyed watching his first-class of graduates, wherein he began working with a freshman class and witnessed their collegiate careers and graduation. 0 Floyd Lai served as Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at California State University from 2011 to 2023. In this Interview, Floyd discusses the growth and development of the CCC in conjunction with other student organizations. As a self-identified Chinese American, Lai addresses how his personal, educational, and professional background have informed one another. Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Floyd Lai, director of the Cross-Cultural Center here at California State University San Marcos, (for) the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Monday, April 10th, 2023, and the time is 4:38(pm). Hi Floyd, could you introduce yourself and talk a little bit about your early life? Where did you grow up, what your parents did for work? Lai: Hi, Madeleine. Yeah, so my name once again is Floyd Lai. I use he/him pronouns. And I grew up, I was born originally in, on the island of Oahu, in Kahuku, which is on the North Shore. My parents are both immigrants from Taiwan . So, they immigrated in about the early seventies, to Lāʻie. Went to school there, got married, went to school there, and that's where I was born. Eventually moved around and arrived in southern California when I turned six. And I've grown up mostly in an area called Roland Heights up in the Los Angeles, greater Los Angeles area, county area. Um, since then, my parents, being immigrants did a couple of different jobs. When we first started and they first came over, they were helping out with a restaurant here in California. And so that's what partly brought us here to California. And then over time, my father eventually went into, as an entrepreneur went into his own business. And so we have, since I wanna say about the mid-nineties, he um, we have a manufacturing business in zippers . And so, my--it's a family business, although I'm not a part of it, and so (laughs) I'm indirectly involved, but so they manufacture and create zippers for the garment industry in general. Meyer: Oh, that's really interesting. So what was your educational journey like? I understand that you got your degree in bioengineering from UC (University of California) Irvine, is that correct? Lai: Almost, almost. It was in environmental engineering. Meyer: Oh, okay. Lai: So, yeah, I don't think biomedical or bio was, was quite ready yet. But at Irvine where I went to school, my original, I graduated the degree in environmental engineering. In my junior year I had a(n) internship, which allowed me to go and actually experience what it was like, kind of taking samples of water and you know, doing things. I went and visited government agencies to kind of see a history of what the land looked like prior to the current state, just to see if there were any underwater tanks or anything that would hold anything hazardous. So did that one summer and realized I didn't like it. I didn't see myself doing that for very much longer. And one thing that was different though is that I was heavily involved on campus, and so I was involved in a couple of different student organizations. I interned as a Special Projects Intern at the Cross-Cultural Center. So that was my first introduction to multicultural or cross-cultural centers. And so because of that, it really allowed me to kind of see that I enjoyed working with students and kind of being able to develop programs and being a part of something like that. And it took a mentor of mine, someone I consider a mentor, to tap me on the shoulder and say, “Hey, you'd be really good at this. This is something you might want to consider as a career.” By then I was so far along in my degree that I decided not to change, but rather just complete the degree. And after I graduated college, (I) went into the field of student affairs, which is kind of the work that I do now. And so that's kind of how I got into the pathway of where I am today. My, I decided to work to see if this was kind of the field I wanted to get into. And fortunately, the mentor who I consider someone who kind of guided me on this pathway, left the institution (and) came back, or left southern California, came back and was in a new position and was looking for someone. And so I, that's where I got a job with her, at Alliant International University. It was kind of a jack of all trades ; I learned a lot of different skills. It was a very small institution. And so I learned, I was the Student Affairs Coordinator, but I did a lot of different things while I was there. And so, that was only gonna be one year. That turned into three, and then I finally decided that I needed to go to grad school, so I ended up getting my graduate or master's degree in post-secondary administration and student affairs at University of Southern California. And so, in that process, about a year into my program, there was an opportunity to go back to my alma mater at UCI (University of California, Irvine) and get a chance to work there as a program coordinator. So I was in my graduate program. There was this opportunity, I wasn't sure how this was gonna work, but I decided to go for it. (I) was hired, and so I essentially was doing a large commute between Irvine, downtown LA, and West LA where I lived. And just kind of making that work for the couple years that I was there. That eventually ended up being my full-time position at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC Irvine. I worked there for about six years, and then as I was looking to see what the next step would be in my progression of my career, an opportunity occurred down here at Cal(ifornia) State San Marcos, in twenty-- about 2011. And so, I was hired in June of 2011 to work here at Cal State San Marcos. I've been here ever since. Meyer: Mm-hmm. And you're the longest running program director, right? Lai: I am, yeah. So, we've had, I'm the fifth person that's been in the position as the, at the time, Associate Director of the Cross-Cultural Center. But, I've been the longest serving. Meyer: Okay. Lai: And so I'm going on about, (my) 13th year now that it's 2023, so. Meyer: Okay. Were there any particular instances in your life in which you decided that student activism and social justice was really what you felt passionate about? Was there like any one incident or student you helped or? Lai: Yeah. I don't know if there was one single instance necessarily. I--again, my degree was in environmental engineering, and so someone who has that sort of degree, their course load or their classes are pretty set. I was double majoring at the time or attempting to double major with a degree in Japanese language and literature. Which didn't happen. But--so there was very little time for me to take, you know, extensive sociology courses, ethnic studies courses. I took one Asian American Studies class. But I think those opportunities, along with the work that I did at the Cross-Cultural Center, really opened my eyes to what might be possible. I wouldn't say that I was passionate about the work in that regard, but I think as a student, I really enjoyed the topics and issues that were being brought up. A lot of it was around self-exploration, better understanding my own identities and how it interacted with some of the experiences that I had. I will say that I think something that was seminal was I um, in about nineteen, mid-nineties, about ninety-five or so, the internet was still kind of in its early infancy. This is when we had to go to chat rooms or go to, go to certain rooms to be able to chat online and talk to one another. And I was still, you know, I was new to the technology, but I had um, was in one of the labs and I received a message indicating, that you know from someone randomly somewhere that, you know, pretty much told me as an Asian American that I was ruining his career, his academic career. And that he wanted to basically kill every effing one of us. You know, I didn't know what, how to react to it at the time. I went to the person in the lab, let them know, realized I wasn't the only person that received that message. Turns out I and a bunch of other folks that happened to be in the lab and also happened to have Asian sounding last names, were the first instance of a hate crime over email at the time at UCI (University of California at Irvine). And so that experience was sort of a culminating experience for me when it came to how one's identity can impact their lived experiences. Right? Up until--not that I was unaware of that before, but I think as an Asian American, the experiences I had weren't necessarily equivalent to maybe, let's say a Black American or, someone who might identify as Latinx. There wasn't even that term back then, right? And so those are the things that I think really opened my eyes. And so I got more involved, invested in the work that the Cross-Cultural Center did at UCI, and because of that, that allowed me to explore those areas that I probably wouldn't have if I had continued to go into the field of engineering. I take all of the learning I got, the way I think as an engineer and try to apply it in the work I do today. And so definitely it still serves me in a lot of ways. Um, but it was, I would say that experience coupled with the support that I got from the Cross-Cultural Center and the mentorship that I got, and the opportunities I had to work there that allowed me to find this field of student affairs, and specifically multicultural affairs, is the work that I do. And so, that's been kind of the trajectory and the pathway that I've kind of fallen into. And, you know, like with any position, I don't know how long I'll be somewhere, but there's definitely something unique and special that I've experienced here at Cal State San Marcos that is reminiscent of my time as an undergrad at UCI that I think they're very similar in that at that time, Irvine was not as big as it is now. And it felt very--it was, it felt like it was just, it was just coming into its own. And I feel like Irv-- Cal State San Marcos is in a similar way kind of coming into its own as well. And so I think I enjoy those experiences and why working here has been a great opportunity for me to continue to grow and develop as not only my professional career, but also participating in the student life that occurs here on campus. Meyer: Right. Right. Okay. So oh, you can go ahead and take a drink. Yeah. Did any, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you first came aboard here? Lai: Yeah so, my understanding and I'm a person who, when I learned real early an adage that I, again, one of my mentors said, you know it, you don't, you're not really sure where you're going until you really understood where you've come from. And so I've taken that to heart in a lot of ways. And so, I worked at UCI for about six years and really understood the history. Coming here I had a very similar, I didn't know fully--it's different. It's a different campus. It's a different population of students that I work with. And so, it took some time to kind of understand sort of the history of what the (CSUSM Cross-Cultural) center is. So, it really appealed to me. We at the time were called Multicultural Programs. There was a Cross-Cultural Center. It was up in what is currently now where the University Advancement Office is located in the Commons Area, kind of up there. And I had two offices, that was kind of the center. And then I was a part of the Student Life and Leadership (SLL), which is now has also evolved in, it has a different name now on campus: Student Leadership and Involvement Center now. But back then it was SLL. And I was hired on as the Associate Director of Multicultural Programs. And so what that meant is that I was a part of Student Life, or at that time, Student Life and Leadership. And I oversaw the Cross-Cultural Center, but it was also integrated into much of the other programs, which included orientation at the time, student, student organizations, fraternity and sorority life. It was all encompassed in that department. So, I had colleagues that had a specific area. And then my area was in Multicultural Programs, or the Cross-Cultural Center. We were a small office (laughs). My desk was literally in the middle of everything. No walls, you know, I was just there and everything kind of happened . There was comfortable couches and things but it was, you know, it was busy. It could be loud at times. And so, I had to either kind of zone it out so I could focus on the work, or really develop relationships with the folks and the students that were there. It was, it felt you know, we were still kind of growing in a lot of ways. And so, I used the first couple years to really understand, or at least try to understand where the Cross-Cultural Center at Cal State San Marcos, what its history had been, what its legacy was at the time, and what it could be, and really understanding that. Um, and so that's kind of the first kind of impression I got. I know I did a lot of walking back and forth between my quote unquote office or upstairs. So about, probably about two days or three days after my first day, which was June 11th, I remember that 2011, or maybe it was (June) 13, whatever that Monday was, Dilcie Perez, who was my supervisor at the time, took me to a meeting to talk about the development and construction of the new University Student Union (building on CSUSM campus that houses student organizations) at the time. So, I got a chance to see kind of what was gonna happen within the next couple of years. And sure enough, soon as, you know, this Union the Union was built, we had a much larger space. We--at the time, there were still only the three centers. So, it was the Cross-Cultural Center at the time, (another center) known as the Women's Equity Center, or the Women's Center, I should say. It was before it was called the--what it's current name is (Women and Gender Equity Center), and then the LGBTQIA Pride Center. So it was just those three spaces and so we each had a space, and really it was a lot more square footage, a lot more opportunities to kind of do programs and do different things in those spaces. So, I've seen kind of an, an evolution of how space has affected and been an integral part of what the students experience. Right? And so, they had now a larger space they could call their home and be able to participate in the programming that we did. Meyer: Nice. So, obviously a lot has changed in the years since you have been Director of the Cross-Cultural Center. What do you think some of the biggest transformations are? I mean, obviously the space transformed. Lai: Yeah. I think, you know, students are different, right? I think every year there's a new crop of students that come in, comes in, and so their--the demographic, their experiences are very different. The last couple years with COVID in particular. So there, so I think of, you know the students we have are part of the differences in trying to ensure that we're fulfilling our mission and supporting the students that come in, whatever experiences they have at the time. So, that I think has evolved and shifted and changed. I would say the issues too, I think back when I started, not that it wasn't an issue, but I think questions about diversity, equity and inclusion, weren't as divisive as they feel like right now to some degree. And the ability to have a difference of opinion, or even be diverse for lack of a better word, it seemed like there was less of that animosity or even a question of whether that's even integral or important, than there is now. And so that's been a shift or change that I've seen. Besides obviously the space. I think the mission has shifted and evolved and changed. So as I've gotten a better sense of, one, honoring and understanding what the history of the Cross-Cultural Center was here at Cal State San Marcos. You know, after a couple years, I wanted to put my own sort of spin and, or impact it in a way that I thought would benefit the students that were here at the time. And so, the mission, not that it's evolved, it's kind of--well no--it has evolved in a way that I think is trying to be more --trying to meet the needs of the students that we have currently. So those are some of the things: the programs, the way it's organized as well, programmatically, so that it aligns with our mission. We're trying to be more strategic about that as well. And so those have been some of the things that I think I've seen kind of shift and change, as well as I think just the, just the natural budget cycles, politics and other things that occur on a college campus. Meyer: Can you talk a little bit about the programs that you guys have? Lai: Yeah, yeah. Our current iteration now, we have, our focus is in four specific areas which include: developing cultural competency, activism and advocacy, critical engagement across social identity groups. So, we come from an intersectional lens. And so, recognizing that there is, there are ways that different people and different identities can interact and have unique outcomes. And so how do we explore that a little bit? And then the retention of underrepresented students in ensuring that they stay here and are successful. We have a high number of students who are first generation college students. And so recognizing that there is additional support that's needed. So those are the four sort of main pillars, for lack of a better word, that we have in the Cross-Cultural Center that really round us in the work that we do in the mission of the center. The programs we put on mirror that. So, we have program series, that we kind of--as a guide for our students. When I first came on, I think--and I think with anything we want, I was still learning, and so the students had some set programs that they put on, and you know, it would change and evolve depending on what the student's interests were. And so, it felt like it was not something con-- there was always an underlying thread, but there was not something that felt like it was consistent. And so, probably about five or six years ago, we instituted more of a program series that aligned with the themes that I shared earlier. And so, some of them are direct correlations. So, for example the Activist Lab, that meets our theme of advocacy and activism, it's an exploration of different ways in which students or participants can see who, what activists, who they were, what were their causes, how did they approach creating social change. Protest is absolutely an integral part of it, but it's not the only way that I think, um, students oftentimes think may be the only way. And so really helping to explore the different avenues of creating social changes is what we do within the Activist Lab. The other one we do as far as retention is called Academe &amp ; Me, it used to be called Tukwut Talks: Conversations with Faculty. But it was really about how to create programs that allow students to develop relationships with faculty members, recognizing that they were students themselves at one point, had highs and lows. And you know, and really humanize, I think for lack of a better word, because I think students oftentimes, either if they don't have a question or unsure about having a conversation with their faculty member, they don't. They--what do we talk about kind of a thing, right? And so they often put 'em on this sort of pedestal. And so inviting faculty--and even now we have grad students come in and participate--but let them know that it's okay that they have, they're just like anyone else. Maybe even learning about a particular subject of study that perhaps they didn't even know was something they could study. So that particular--Academe &amp ; Me is really about helping to hopefully create a pipeline of students to go into the professorate or into academia. Again, developing relationships with them and so, that's part of how we hopefully can retain our students. One final thing that we do, well two others I'll speak to. One is Critical Cougars: Unlearn. Relearn. And so that really aligns with the notion of how do we explore those different identities? And in the critical engagements and this around across social identity groups. It's kind of our largest sort of bucket, ‘cause anything can be sort of put in that particular bucket, but it's really about how do we unlearn maybe things that we learned in high school, how do we relearn or even learn for the first time things that we weren't taught necessarily, depending on where we went. And how do we evolve and continue to change and challenge ourselves critically in the thinking that we have. And so that's what that sort of program does. And then finally, I'll speak to something--my identity is, and I didn't, I spoke part of it a little bit earlier when I introduced myself, but my parents are from Taiwan, so I identify as Asian American, specifically Chinese American. And so, currently at Cal State San Marcos, there isn't a physical building, or a center dedicated to Asian Pacific Islander Desi American students. So with that vacuum, I said you know, the Cross-Cultural Center and oftentimes a Multicultural Center has served in that sort of capacity ; where the space is there but the other, like the LGBTQIA or the Women's Center, this Cross-Cultural Center in other, not necessarily here but in other spaces, they've been--they came from that space. And then once they had a critical mass or felt the need, they were established. So in the same vein, we don't have one currently. So because of that, and partly because of my own identity as that, we have a program called Defining Diaspora: Asian Pacific Islander Desi American Identities. Which essentially is just an exploration of that really large group of individuals and identities that fall under that sort of diaspora. And so, a lot of programming is, can be about a specific individual, a particular culture, a particular practice or tradition in those areas. And so that's kind of what Defining Diaspora is meant to do, is to really help to expose students of those identities, or those that aren't and wanting to learn more about to those types of cultures and traditions that are part of that. So those are kind of the programs we do. Underlying all that is really a focus on social justice work. And so, things that my predecessors started, my immediate predecessor, Sarah (Sheikh) started was the Social Justice Summit, which is kind of a three-day, two-night retreat. Which really allows a small group of about forty students the opportunity to explore their personal identities, better understand what social justice, that term, ‘cause I think we throw it out a lot of times. We want, you know environmental justice, this kind of justice. And so, what does it really mean when we talk about social justice? Having an understanding of the dynamics of either oppression or privilege, and really exploring what those concepts are. And then, we hope, and it's you know it's not always perfect, but it's that third day is then a focus as we return or plan or prepare ourselves to come back to campus. How do we become allies or co-conspirators, or how can we better support those communities or identities we may not necessarily have ourselves? And so, that has been something that's gone on for a while, again that predated me, and we've just kind of expanded and grown that. So, now we have in addition to the summit, which has been on hiatus because of COVID but we hope to bring it back this fall, the Symposium which is kind of more of a conference style. And that sprang out of an understanding that even, again, I'm a big proponent of tradition or just what legacies have been left behind. There were you know, faculty and stu-- staff that really wanted to take an opportunity for the campus to explore what social justice means in a conference sort of setting. So whether it's workshops, presentations. So that kind of has evolved into our Social Justice Symposium. And then when COVID hit, we couldn't do either one of those. And so we, my GA, graduate assistant at the time Daniela (Carreon) we, in discussions, we wanted to start a scholars program. And so, it's kind of a little bit of the summit. It's not the overnight, because it's kind of a class setting or curriculum. It's over the course of a couple weeks. Similarly, not a very big class, but very intimate for folks who want to be able to learn about these things and be scholars. And so the hope is that they're all connected in some way. Scholars can help in presenting at Symposium, Scholars can also be some of the mentors at the Summit and retreat. And so that's another area that we focus on in the Cross-Cultural Center, in collaboration now with the other centers, Student Life Centers that exist here on campus. Meyer: In what ways do you think, has your involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center helped you expand and develop as a person and as a professional? I know you've touched a little bit (overlapping dialogue) but- Lai: Yeah. Yeah. No, you know, the work I do, I would say absolutely students are at the heart of the work that we do. And so, as students have evolved and changed in their challenges and their perspectives have evolved, I in similar fashion, I think have learned from that as well. And so--it's not, I say this to students all the time: it's not about saying, “Oh I took this workshop. Check, I'm done with diversity, or I'm done with this topic.” It's an ongoing, you know, lifelong pursuit of recognizing and interacting with people that are maybe different from you. And everyone's gonna have a unique perspective or a unique--I mean there are similar, you know places or, you know people connect to. But everyone's different. And for that reason, I think I've evolved and developed a more nuanced approach in how to not only have the conversation around , um, diversity, equity, inclusion, even topics of social justice. I view my role oftentimes as the Director (of the Cross-Cultural Center) in how do we invite people to have those conversations? Even if they're difficult, even if they're challenging, even if they're divisive. Which I know is so hard to do, because why would I wanna sit across the table from someone who absolutely does not believe I should exist or doesn't agree in a lot of different ways. But I think it's through that process, that I've been able to kind of learn and grow as well on either approaches or ways in which we can kind of bring people to the table to have these types of conversations. It is my belief that I think, and I take that to heart because it's my own experience as I've better understood you know, the various isms, prejudices, biases and whatnot that I am a better person for it. And I'm more aware of situations and things that can be changed to enable folks to feel like they're included as part of that experience, whatever it may necessarily be. So, you know my father is an immigrant as part of his identity. He was also, he was born in 1940, and so he was prior to the polio vaccine. So, he has a disability in the sense that he at the time had a brace, and now it, now he's in a wheelchair. But that allowed me to recognize, I mean, we got so many stairs here at Cal State San Marcos, sometimes it's hard to know where people have accessibility and things like that. But so that's something I you know, I grew up with and I recognized, so I thought, “Oh yeah, I know about disabilities. I get it.” And then more recently at a conference I attended, and this is COVID was still happening, we had the stickers that said, “Hey, if it's green, we can hug each other. If it's yellow, you know, maybe like elbows or whatever. And if it's red, no, I want to stay six feet away,” kind of thing. And so, I was part of a registration group, and I share this in the workshops that I do with students, but I said, “Okay, great. We're done, right? We just gotta do the stickers.” And a colleague of mine said, “Well, wait, what if they're colorblind? How would they know which color to pick?” Never occurred to me, because I'm not colorblind. So, we eventually found a solution. We wrote down, you know, R, Y, and G, so folks could at least see what was written there, regardless of the color. But it's those things, those interactions. And I realized that, you know, it's not until you're either confronted with something or maybe you say something you (laughs) you know, you probably shouldn't have said that you realize or better understand sort of the experience. And so, my hope in the work that I do with the Cross-Cultural Center and the experiences that I've gained, I've learned every, every time I've had an interaction, how I can better hopefully have a future interaction or things that I need to work on myself a little bit more in recognizing. And so it's an iterative process. And so, I think that's been something that I've been able to take away because of the fact that I work in a space like this. Versus a corporate you know, entity or things like that. But because of this, it gives me a really unique perspective on how our society functions and what things we can do to try and really be as inclusive as possible for all. Meyer: So as your time in your role as director, what are the greatest challenges that you believe the center has faced? I know the pandemic probably threw a wrench in everything. Lai: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a big one, right? I think having to pivot within a couple weeks, I think the university did an amazing job. You know--it's hindsight now knowing some of the impacts. But I think in the moment, having to do that, definitely that was one challenge, right? In having to deal now, I think with students who have to relearn what it's like to be in college, ‘cause they really didn't really get that experience or relearn what it means to learn even. Because I think those expectations have shifted and changed. I would say also in my time here, I mentioned a little bit earlier, there is I think more of a--I wouldn't even call it a critical view of, but critical in the sense of like something that is a critique. Less--It's very critical. I think a lot of folks are questioning things now related to--let me think. Oh, I'm trying to, it's blank. It's not coming to my mind right now, but just even the necessity for diversity, equity, and inclusion there are-- Oh, critical race theories, CRT, that's one. Which I think has somehow--education has always been I think viewed in ways, understandably, because tax-- Public education, I'll speak to because tax dollars go into it, and so how can we be most sufficient and effective and so forth. And I get that. But even, you know, things like affirmative action which is, we don't have in California, but even those concepts and ideas of how do we outreach to underserved or underrepresented populations. Those things that I think were differences of opinion or approach with regard to policy has taken a very dark turn in the sense that it's very personal in a lot of ways. And I know and I'm not--I again, I was an engineer(ing major), so I didn't take any sociology or gender equity studies classes. But I think it may be second wave feminism but this, the personal is political, is a truism that I think is in a lot of ways where a lot of the policies and things that are being done are directly targeting certain groups. And so the challenge for me, and I've wondered this as well because I've seen states now, right? And their legislatures look at different ways and approaches, such that for example with regard to students that may go to university in Florida, are getting a very different experience when it comes to interacting or working (with) others. Partly because of what they can't necessarily discuss or talk about. I have colleagues, and I'm sure I think I heard from others that Offices of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion had to rename themselves because they were illegal now to be in some of those spaces. So I've seen that shift in the sense that I think I'm gonna be, I--my goal as an educator is to really help the up-and-coming generational students think differently or to be prepared for the work that they do. Now, it's gonna be compounded by the fact that based on your geography or location or where you go to school, you're gonna have a very different experience of things that you've been able to experience as a student. We often say that going to college is kind of a mini version of real life, but here you can make mistakes and the consequences aren't necessarily like, you know, a lot of times we try to find the developmental approach within Student Affairs. How do we do this differently? How do we, you know, it's meant to be a growing opportunity that oftentimes you don't get when you're out in quote unquote the real world. Things just kind of happen and you--that the consequences are what they are. So, my fear is that oftentimes now, if my goal is to have students be able to understand and interact with someone who has no idea or hasn't necessarily had these same experiences or similar types of experiences, doesn't have to be the same--what's that gonna mean then for our society as a whole? Right? Because again, depending on your geography or where you go to school, you're in a very different kind of educational experience compared to someone else who does. I think that where information comes from, there are some benefits with social media and other things where it has democratized and allowed multiple--even filming things, catching things that, police brutality and things like that. So a very democratized, but now the source of where things are and having some level of information literacy and recognizing where it's (media) coming from it, what's the purpose of what it is, and where's the quote unquote truth and where do you suss it out, is another challenge I think that I'm seeing as well in the work that we do. And trying to, we used to start with the same set of facts, and now the question is, “Are we still in, are we talking about the same set of facts or not?” (laughs) And so there's again, some of that that I think sort of needs to happen. And so I see that play out in the work that we do because, you know I may start with like, “Hey, so this has been the experience,” and someone might say, “No, that's not.” And so then I want to learn more about where that is. But it's not necessarily always productive, I guess. And so that's where I see some of the of the challenges in the work that we're doing with these types of spaces, Cross-Cultural Centers or Multicultural Centers. Meyer: It's the politicization of something that shouldn't be. Yeah. Lai: Yeah. In a lot of ways. I mean, I could say this, you know, this notion of public health and how politicized even with regard to COVID, right? The notion of--and some of this is cultural you know it's natural for me to think in terms of the collective, because that's you know in Asian cultures broadly speaking there's a collectivist sort of mentality in how that's supported. America has a very individualistic streak, which is you know it's not a bad thing. I think where the challenge comes in is where does one's, where is one's freedom impinged upon and where it's not? And that's been debated for a long time with free speech and lots of other things, but it has been politicized even in areas like public health to a lot of degrees. And so that's, yeah. So those, they're not new challenges per se, but there are new approaches to how do we have these types of conversations, or how do we help educate and teach about these things in a way that hopefully is broadening and enlightening. So. Meyer: So what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexist with the expansion of identity specific spaces like the Black Student Center and the Latin /x Center? Lai: Yeah, that's a great question and one that I wrestle with because I don't know if I necessarily have an answer myself. You know, I started at the Cross-Cultural Center at UC (University of California) Irvine which is one of the first centers, and this is the history that was drilled into me. Second only at the time at the UC system to a University of Washington, at a time when I think resources were scarce. And so, it made sense to start from a collective cross-cultural sort of center and space. And I would say even for, depending on where whatever campus you're on, either resources were tied or made sense that collectively these were cross-cultural or multicultural spaces. They weren't enough, you know. We have students, understandably within the Black communities, BIPOC, so Black, Indigenous, People of Color communities who said, you know, “Okay, this is a good start, but it's not meeting the needs that we have.” And so that's why these spaces then, you know , like a Black Student Center or other spaces have kind of evolved. The question then becomes: well where does then, once these things have evolved and come out of necessarily this space, what then becomes the role of this space where it started and how does it evolve and change? And that's what I've been wrestling with myself because--and I'm not the only one. University, UCSD, San Diego, they started with the Cross-Cultural Center and now they've got a Black Student Center, Indigenous Center, and all these other additional spaces. And so, it's been trying to figure out, besides programmatically, besides the history months or the heritage months, what are the ways in which they can interact one with another? And so, it's gonna be different on each campus. But I think the conclusion for me has been, you know, the Cross-Cultural Center is essential, especially if there's a belief and understanding, which a lot of my colleagues have, about the notion of intersectionality. We're more than just one-dimensional pieces. I'm, you know, I'm Chinese, but I'm also American. Identify as a cisgendered male. All of those things play with one another in the experiences that I have and/or the choices and decisions that I make. And in the same vein I think, there's always gonna be a place for a cross-cultural center or multicultural center, because these unique and specific spaces are serving a purpose. They're helping Black students getting the support they need because they either, whether it's cultural validation, whether it's just being with someone who doesn't question (laughs) why you're there. Or isn't peppering you with questions about something they may not be familiar with, which, you know, naturally happens. “Oh, what about this? Why do you eat this food? What's that?” You know, those types of things. And I think in most situations it'd be great, but there is an instance where I think there's fatigue in having to explain yourself all the time or, and so sometimes it's nice to just be, when you go into a space. Which I can see there's why there are certain spaces, whether it's the Latin /x Center and so forth. So, I think some of it depends on the landscape of the campus of where a particular space may be at. Here, on our campus, for a long, long time, we just had the Cross-Cultural Center, which is the first one, and it wasn't necessarily born out of protest. Students didn't demand it, it was just, as I understand the history, administrators had said, “You know, we want to be prepared for the 21st century student here in North County.” And so, we think this is important. So we, you know, create this space. Soon thereafter, I want to say it was the Pride Center, and then, or maybe the other way around, the Women's Center and then a Pride Center that, you know, were under student government, ASI, at the time. So those were the three centers for a long time. And then, you know Latinx students said, “We need a space. We're over fifty percent of the population, where our needs are not being met.” You know, and I for a long time, and I and because this is (laughs), I think I had a hard time sort of separating myself and not viewing it as a failure on my part, you know. And students would say, “Oh, it's not you, it's not you. We just need this space.” And I couldn't quite understand, “Well, I know you're saying it's not me, but what could I do to help support this population that we're not doing now?” And so, that was what was going on in my mind. And it took me a couple of well, it took a co--one person in particular and other colleagues to say, “You know, don't get caught up in that.” And eventually I was okay, right? Like, it makes sense that there are more of these spaces because that just provides additional support and resources for these communities. So, that should not be the issue, and you shouldn't get caught up in that. But, you know, it's hard and it--your pride takes a little bit of a hit when you're like: well, what am I not doing that is, that you need a separate space to occur? You know, in that same vein, and eventually there'll be most likely well, I know that the President (of CSUSM, Ellen Neufeldt) has agreed to an Asian Pacific Islander (and Desi American ; APIDA) space here at Cal State San Marcos. And so, the programming that you know, is near and dear to me, doesn't mean I can't do it but, you know, instead of redundant programs, it'll probably go to a future APIDA center. And so, it's figuring out, I think what that role is. And I wish I could say I had a great answer, but I do--I think what I've resolved myself to, or resigned myself to understand--that's probably not the way right way to say it, but is that there will always, I think, be a place for a Cross-Cultural Center or Multicultural Center space. What we do in that is gonna vary. And I've had to adjust. So that's the themes that I shared earlier. And the purpose of, in our mission and how we kind of structure what we do is intentional because it avoids or tries not to step on sort of the toes of the other centers and spaces, right? They have their own things that they do and they support the students. We all have different lenses through which we try to do the same work. And so, my role I think, as a Cross-Cultural Center is how do we build community? How do we bring these spaces together? And being more of a connector is something I've kind of started to better understand as far as what I think this, the role of future cross-cultural center or multicultural center spaces that maybe dealing with this might be is, is how do we connect these communities and keep them together in some way. And continue to find those gaps, those spaces where students may not-- An example is what if I'm multicultural or multiracial? I don't feel like I belong in the Black Student Center, or I don't feel like I belong in the Latin /x Center if I'm both Black and Mexican. And so, I think that's where a space like the Cross-Cultural Center or a multicultural center could still serve as a purpose in exploring those identities, helping them to navigate the complexities of what that entails ; as well as their gender, sexual orientation, all of that in helping them to decide that. So, I think that's what I've come to understand. But the--you know, the verdict's still out on what the (laughs) what that is, and our students keep changing. So, you know, there could be other things that we need to address and figure out as we move further along. But my hope ultimately is that whatever it is, that it'll still continue to serve the needs of the students that are coming to our university and to the institutions that they are applying to. Meyer: What direction do you think the CCC should grow in from here? Lai: Yeah. If I had my (laughs)-- Meyer: If you had your, if you had your dreams. Lai: Of course. You know I think I would love to, and we're kind of moving in this direction, I would love to figure out better ways to support students financially. Whether it's through scholarships or other things. We are as part of I think this project as well, we're celebrating our 20th anniversary. Which you know, we're still pretty young. We're still kind of just getting out of our teen years, right? Into our twenties. But it's a great milestone I think, with regard to being here on this campus. And so, I think financially looking at ways in which we can support our students. I would love to expand our staff as well. I think-- t's funny, I've been the longest serving director, but I've also been a staff of one. And so, in some ways I wonder if I've, if I'd been successful, if there would've been more, other staff members a part of it. But I would love to see more staff members, because I think there just isn't you know-- students' needs are getting more and more complex that require more time, and there's only one of me and I'd like to see other staff come in and be able to assist the students that are here, that may need that support. I think there are other areas that we can explore as well when it comes to, you know, we have a Disability Student Services, but their focus really is on providing the support for students to be successful. Not necessarily doing programming to help folks understand what those (services) are and how we can make the--make some changes or differences. People that are neurodivergent, there's just a lot of different areas and identities that haven't necessarily been explored. But I think those would be opportunities for a Cross-Cultural Center to kind of be able to provide space or to provide programming that can help other students understand not necessarily what it's like, but better understand those conditions and/or maybe consider different ways of thinking about how they, when they have the opportunity or are placed in a position where they can make a difference, that they're hopefully considering and thinking about those areas that they themselves perhaps are privileged in. Where they don't have to worry about or they don't have to think about it in any way. And so that level of work, I think in programming and approaching and supporting those communities, I think is other areas where we can see the Cross-Cultural Center sort of grow. I think there's the conversation about the divisiveness in politics in other ways that, you know, a big part of what I'm doing now and hopefully will continue to do, has been working with the Civility Campaign (program by the CSUSM Dean of Students) on our campus. They kind of, when I first started here at Cal State San Marcos, the, at the time, this campaign started around the same time, so I've been connected to it for a long time. But I've seen the significance and importance of how do we have dialogue and conversation--particularly with someone who may just be of a completely different belief system--but hopefully still get nuggets of wisdom or at least try to understand one another. A lot of, I don't want to make or simplify to say if we just saw you know, held hands kumbaya, that it was gonna be that easy. I don't think it's that easy, but I think that is the work that is necessary for students, particularly at a time when perhaps they've come from very homogeneous communities or they just have never been introduced to someone. To be able to find ways in which those kinds of opportunities can help them to grow and be eventually a better graduate of Cal State San Marcos, because they've had experiences or programs that have introduced them to these types of things that they haven't necessarily done before. So, I think long-term those are some things I'm hoping that the Cross-Cultural Center can play an active role in supporting or perhaps being a big part of really proactively engaging our students in a way that again, makes those students that graduate from Cal State San Marcos really the premier students here in North County. And who go on to become leaders and folks that are making these decisions in the community. Meyer: I'm sure you have a lot, but could you share a few of your favorite memories from your time at the Cross-Cultural Center? Lai: Yeah. You know, it's hard to think about. I mean, there's so many different ones. I think I value the different student leaders that have worked with me. From the very first time, when we called them peer educators at the time. Because I'm a staff of one, I rely heavily on my student staff to really help in getting a lot of the work and the mission of the center done. And so, some of my fondest memories are those different folks that have worked alongside me. Getting to know them, getting to hear about their experiences here on campus. Now seeing them graduate as alumni and really kind of, you know, off in the world and kind of doing some amazing things. I, in Higher Ed you know, I recall after my fifth year that was the first year that I had a student that I knew was a freshman or a first-year student that I saw all the way through and graduate. You know, I've had other students that graduated along the way, but the--that was the first group that I knew from the first time they stepped foot into campus all the way through till they graduated, even transfer students as well. And so, that's one I think fond memory. I love the staff that, I love the staff that I work with now, but also even before when I was part of Student Life and Leadership, Dilcie Perez (formerly in charge of Student Life and Leadership) was my supervisor. And I think she instilled a lot of laughter and like just fun stuff in the work that was oftentimes can be hard and challenging. And so, those are some fond memories. We have a unique tradition here at Cal State San Marcos around Halloween, where a lot of folks dress up, in--within Student Affairs I should say. (laughs) But it's a big deal, and I don't think I fully realized it until I first came to this campus and experienced it for the first time. But some of the different traditions and things like that have been fun and interesting to see. I--commencement is always a fun time where a lot of the memories that I have that I can recollect. When I have had the chance, a lot of us volunteer and help support the program. So, being able to see them (students) cross the stage, see their families and watch them witness their students cross the stage. And again, a lot of them are first generation, first in their families (to graduate college) and the joy and the excitement that they see, those are some memories that I'll definitely keep for a long time. Because I think that is what grounds me. And I know a lot of my colleagues say this, but commencement is kind of, it--the students, yes. But also seeing them achieve and be able to get to that point. And the excitement is also refreshing and kind of a reminder of the work and why we do it. So, when we deal with policy issues or just challenges with bureaucracy of the university, it's always nice to remember those moments because then it reminds at least me of what and why I do the work that I do, and why it's so critical and important. Or at least I would like to think that it's a big part of their experience that they have here at Cal State San Marcos. Meyer: Well, thank you so much, Floyd. You've been a pleasure to interview and yeah, thank you so much. Lai: Thank you. Thanks for taking the time. Meyer: All right. That was great. (laughs). https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LaiFloyd_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-11_access.xml LaiFloyd_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-11_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lai, Floyd. Interview April 10th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Floyd Lai served as Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at California State University from 2011 to 2023. In this Interview, Floyd discusses the growth and development of the CCC in conjunction with other student organizations. As a self-identified Chinese American, Lai addresses how his personal, educational, and professional background have informed one another. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-49 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center Civil rights Education, Higher Human rights Racism -- California -- Irvine Student Success University of California Irvine. Cross-Cultural Center Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-10 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Floyd Lai Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madeleine Meyer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Irvine (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Floyd Lai Activists and activism Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Alexa Clausen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daniel Flores Rios OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-03-30.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Hanford, CA;Central Valley, CA;farm workers;high school drop out to work as landscape;Ocean Beach, CA;La Jolla, CA;Lucy Berk, librarian Escondido Times-Advocate newspaper;Mexican immigrant parents;Jennie Rios labored although an amputee;Mexican Revolution about 1915-16;Mesa Community College;Mid-way Adult Education;Kodalith film;San Diego City College photography degree;William (Bill) Dendle, photography department;Bob Boyd, photography instructor, San Diego City college;Reed, Miller and Murphy Advertising;Times-Advocate newspaper. OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Rios, Dan. Interview March 30th, 2017 SC003-01 00:29:54 SC003 Dan Rios papers CSUSM csusm Agricultural laborers -- California ; Hanford (Calif.) ; Ocean Beach (San Diego, Calif.) ; La Jolla (San Diego, Calif.) ; Escondido (Calif.) ; Mesa Community College (San Diego, Calif.) ; Mexican Americans ; Photojournalists Hanford, CA ; Central Valley, CA ; farm workers ; high school drop out to work as landscape ; Ocean Beach, CA ; La Jolla, CA ; Lucy Berk, librarian Escondido Times-Advocate newspaper ; Mexican immigrant parents ; Jennie Rios labored although an amputee ; Mexican Revolution about 1915-16 ; Mesa Community College ; Mid-way Adult Education ; Kodalith film ; San Diego City College photography degree ; William (Bill) Dendle, photography department ; Bob Boyd, photography instructor, San Diego City college ; Reed, Miller and Murphy Advertising ; Times-Advocate newspaper. Daniel Flores Rios Alexa Clausen .wav RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-03-30_access.wav 1:|14(13)|26(4)|61(14)|105(9)|117(5)|146(4)|176(12)|222(10)|254(7)|305(16)|329(11)|361(13)|394(2)|421(4)|438(8)|465(8)|490(5)|512(7)|528(8)|548(14)|593(2)|612(6)|633(18)|659(11)|694(9)|707(5)|754(16)|766(4)|799(7)|828(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6530a2ec4e46f4d8911ae22577aa5093.wav Other audio English Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. This interview recounts Rios's childhood and early adulthood, and his personal and educational journey towards becoming a news photographer.&#13 ; &#13 ; As a child and teen laborer Rios, due to extreme heat, convinced his field worker family to leave the Central Valley and join his aunts in San Diego. They moved in 1953. As a 14 year old teen high school drop-out, Rios started his own gardening and landscaping business in La Jolla, California. A client convinced Rios to attend night school to get his high school degree. Rios then pursued a civil engineering degree at community college, eventually dropping the pursuit of engineering when he finds his passion for photography. Rios acquired a degree in commercial and portrait photography at San Diego Community college where he met his mentors. After graduation he sought work as a photographer and landed an interview in Escondido for the regional newspaper, the Escondido Times-Advocate. Dan Rios: My name is Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939. Alexa Clausen: We have put together some questions. Tell us a little about your childhood, you had told us about leaving the Fresno area. DR: I was born in the Central Valley. My family were all field workers. They picked all sorts of fruits, cotton, stuff like that. The weather was miserable . The winters were freezing cold, the summers were blistering hot, and I never liked the place. So I convinced my mother and father we should move out of there. And in 1953, we moved to San Diego. Settled in Ocean Beach for a little while. Eventually we bought property in Mission Valley, had a house built. Worked with a company in La Jolla doing landscaping, gardening at the age of 14. I quit school in the middle of 8th grade. Never went back there to finish junior high or never even went to high school. I worked in La Jolla for two years for a gardening and landscaping company. AC: Now when you said they came to San Diego, you had other family here? DR: Yes, I had two aunts that lived here. That brought us here. Also had a sister who moved here prior to our moving here. We rented place on the beach, Ocean Beach right on the beach. It's called The Ocean Village, we had a little cabin there. At that point it was my father, my mother, my sister, two brothers and myself. I believe a sister too. The other two sisters had already married and moved out. AC: What did they come to do? What did mom and dad come to do? DR: (laughs) Well they came because I bugged the-- AC: Said get me out of this-- (unintelligible, Clausen and Rios talking over each other) DR: I just hated Hanford. AC: Oh I’m sorry-- DR: I dreaded--I mean we were poor, we weren't dissident, we owned our home , our own car. But it was not a good life, it was a miserable life. And I told my mother once, I said, “I know we are going to be poor the rest of our lives, why do we have to be poor and miserable too.” (laughs) I just hounded her and convinced her that we had to move out of town. And we did in 1953. AC: Right, but they knew there would be work in San Diego? DR: Yes, my brother-in-law had gotten a job with landscaping company in La Jolla and he was pretty sure that both my father and I-- AC: There was room to have you join them. DR: Yes. Right. Yes. AC: Now you know, you’re were still very young here when you’re doing the landscaping. DR: Yes, I was fourteen years old. AC: That’s sure a long cry from getting to be a, you know, quite an well-established photographer, and Lucy (Berk, a local historian who met Dan when she worked as the librarian for Times Advocate) told me also an artist, a photographer as an artist-- DR: Yes. AC: So, let's fast forward your career a little bit here. So here you are, a kid, landscaping and thinking to yourself, well what? I want to buy a camera? What do I have to do? DR: (laughs). Oh, no, no, no. I took to gardening and landscaping like a termite to wood. I loved it. I read a lot of books on it. I was very good, I was excellent at it. I had a natural sense of design, I learned thousands of plant names and fertilizers and insecticides. At the age of 16—at the age of 14, I was working three days a week at the La Jolla Art Center. Three days a week. Three full days a week. And I figured after two years of doing that, that I could take over the contract and work only three days a week making as much money as I was working five days a week. So I talked to Dr. Malone who was the director, and asked him if I could take over the job at 16 years old. And he did not laugh me away as most people would have done. He talked to the Board and they agreed. So I worked three 8-hour days, and then the other two days of the week I worked other jobs. Eventually, I worked six days a week, and I was getting a lot of contracts, a lot of work at 16, 17 years old. So then I called my father to come and help me and my business and got him away from the landscaping company. We did that for about 15 years. AC: Did you have a business name? DR: Dan Rios Complete Garden Service and Landscaping. Had no license, no insurance. (laughs) AC: But you know that was not a big deal then. DR: No it wasn’t. AC: It was simply not a big deal. Most people didn't care, and-- DR: No. Nobody questioned me. I was never stopped by the city, by the police, or anybody. But I was 16 years old, did not have a driver's license. AC: Now that was bad, that was a problem. (laughs) DR: So I went to buy a '55 Chevrolet pickup, I had the financing and everything, but I had no driver's license. So the salesman ordered me to go to National City (California), get a driver's license. AC: Down to the DMV. DR: Yes and got it. I made really, really good money. I remember. between my father and I, say in 1957 - 58 (we were) making $20,000 a year. And I researched and I found out at the time high school teachers were making $5000 a year. AC: Oh yeah you could probably buy a little home for eighteen or seventeen thousand at the time. DR: We bought a piece of land in Mission Valley for $4000. Paid that off and then we had a house built. It was a 2,000 square foot house for $10,000. The payments were $72 a month. I told my mother, “You know in ten years that’s going to be nothing. That’s going to be a drop in the bucket.” AC: And it was true. DR: Yes. Oh yeah. She died living there. She died in 1980. We built the house in '58. AC: So did she work? Did she end up-- DR: No, no, she was--not any more. She did in Hanford. She had an amputated leg and even with that she went out in the fields and pick grapes and picked cotton. And did all kinds of field work. AC: Give me your mother's name. DR: Jennie. Jennie Rios. AC: And father's name? DR: Theodore. AC: Theodore. OK. And were they from that Northern California area? DR: No, no, no. They immigrated separately to the United States during the Mexican Revolution about 1915-16. AC: I’ll be darned. DR: I think my mother was six years old. I think my father was nine years old. AC: Yeah. They came as children. DR: They crossed at El Paso. And they worked themselves--my father worked as a water-boy on the railroad tracks coming to California. My mother's father worked for a construction company building a pipeline. I haven't really researched that. She said the pipe was as big as a diameter that a man sitting on a horse could ride into the pipe. It was that huge. Eventually, the contract ended in Hemet (California). But they came through the San Jacinto Mountains. She remembered the Indians there singing and chanting. AC: There’s a number of Reservations or one or two big ones there. DR: Yes, Saboba. AC: So well we are making our way to your camera, right? So we’ve got you owning your own company, you have your father involved in your business, and you’ve got a house. DR: And a brand-new car. AC: And you are working for the La Jolla Art-- DR: Center. AC: As one of your clients. DR: Then I expanded and I had clients. I was working seven days a week, 12 hours a day. No vacations, no holidays. But it was a lot of fun, there was a lot of money coming in. And for an uneducated kid-- AC: That becomes important. DR: Yes. AC: You could finally enjoy things-- DR: In fact I'll tell you how uneducated I was: I never understood English, I never understood Math. History and other stuff like that, I could understand. When I would do a contract—an estimate, I would do all round numbers, all whole numbers. AC: Okay. DR: At one point I could not subtract 1.99 from 2.00. I had no idea (Clausen and Rios talking over each other) how to move the figures-- AC: Well, you know you were a kid that needed to get money and wanted to leave poverty. DR: Yeah, it was field work and I hated the field work. It was miserable. So even when I had my little business going, I decided--I knew a year in advance what I would be doing. I had so many contracts lined up that it became boring. The work just became boring. So I decided in 1962 to go back to night school and get my high school education. Which I did. I did in three years. I went five nights a week plus Saturdays plus TV shows--TV classes. I think I needed 32 credits to graduate, and I think I graduated with 48 credits. The counselor urged me to be class president, I did not have time for that. So then she bothered me so much, eventually I acquiesced to be Salutatorian for the high school class. AC: Oh nice. DR: When I started, I was in the 30-35% percentile. When I graduated, I was 98 percentile. It just came so easy to me. AC: And boy, you sure did the right thing to get more education. DR: More? Some education. I never had it-- AC: Well, you missed out on your childhood in a way. DR: I never had a childhood. I never had a teenage life. When we were at home working, picking, we would never start school in September. It was November. Middle of November we started. And then holidays--then Thanksgiving came, you were off two weeks, then two or three weeks, Christmas came. And we’d (not) come back until the middle of January. And then we would leave school in May. I never started school and I never ended school. AC: I had gone to the Latino Film Festival—I go every year with my friend. I can’t sit through too many movies but we saw one (film) that was a--that followed some children and their education, still today, and how the parents do yank them out of school and they’ll go to El Centro or wherever and the kids are constantly in flux. They still—happens to them, they—and then, the teachers have to try and test them and place them and it still goes on. DR: Well that was me, that was our family. We had to survive, we had to put food on the table, clothes on our backs. AC: Yeah, yeah. DR: We owned our own home, we owned our own car. There was no bills there. AC: Well that was, that was more than a lot. DR: That’s a whole lot of story, because this house we’re living in now is part of my mother's wedding present. I can go into that if you want to later on. But I never wanted—and when I had my own little business, big family gatherings at the house, we had a nice house in San Diego. A lot of family gatherings and stuff like that. But I was bored with my job 'cause I would get up 5 o’clock in the morning. Six o’clock I was out the door and I wouldn’t get back until five or six o’clock. When I started Adult School, high school, I would get home at 5 o’clock, 5:30, take a shower, have a little snack, and go to school between 6 and 9. And then get home and study until 1-2 o’clock in the morning. I would do that for-- AC: Well see you had the desire, the drive-- DR: Yeah. Five, seven days. And then eventually I stopped working Saturday, used to go to Saturday school. So I graduated and then went to college and I was going to study Civil Engineering. Because it seemed to suit me. I was good in Math, I was good in Science, I was good in Chemistry. AC: Did you start at community college? DR: Yeah. Mesa College. AC: Good school. DR: Yeah. I was there a year and a half, and I took—I was taking pretty heavy classes. I went to take an easy class, a Health Ed. class. Taught by a short, stout, female teacher. No term paper, no mid-term, no quizzes, attendance is good, class participation. The only absolute requirement, concrete--you had to have a hobby at the age of 65 and over. She said, “None of my students going out working 30-40 years, retiring and become the wife or your spouse's pain in the ass,” running the house because she has been for 30-40 years. Chauffer, bookkeeper, cook, shopper, maintenance, raising the kids. She said, “My students will not be a burden to their spouses." AC: (laughs) That is so great. DR: (laughs) You will need a hobby. And I had to prove it. And it does not include rock climbing because at 60-70 years old you’re not going to be doing any rock climbing. So in San Diego, at this here store on University where I went to, they had their camera counter right there where you walked in the front door. I’d often stopped and marveled at all these devices. I had heard about 35-millimeter (cameras), had no idea what it was. I had seen this camera with all these numbers on it. And different colored numbers. I often wondered what it all meant. Because growing up in Hanford we had no money for either film or camera or anything else, there were just no--no extras. So I decided to take a adult (continuing education) class at Mid-way Adult High School in photography. I took it for one semester. Now in college I was carrying a 3.54 average. I got involved in photography, it just overwhelmed me. I could not get enough of it. I just started buying second-hand equipment. AC: I don't know if that Adult School is still there. It was there for years. DR: Probably not. At the time I was going out with a woman who I later married. She was taking an art class and I was taking photography on Wednesdays. I got so involved with photography I started buying used equipment, new equipment when I could afford it. I would buy 100-foot rolls of film and shoot that film in one week. I was just drawn into it. AC: Wow. DR: I was just mesmerized. I couldn't get enough of it, it was like an addict. And so I built a dark room in my mother's garage. At that point I had gotten married. Built the dark room in my mother's garage, I would go in at 4-5 o’clock in the morning, process film. Start printing and proofing and looking at my clock, I would have to be at school at 9 o'clock for a class, 10 o’clock at class-- AC: I tell young people and my son, go ahead and plan and take your classes but you don’t know what’s going to come your way. Like don’t get so, you know worry, worry, where’s the job, where’s my job going to be. I said “Stop!” It may come to you and I can’t wait to tell him about--’cause I see him tomorrow, but don’t wear yourself down with worry, you don’t know the twist and turns in your life. Look at that! DR: Well, my mother had a saying that most students go to college to study to be a potato and they come out a yam. (both laugh) So my grades plummeted. I would not go to school. I would try to bone up for a test. I would not show up for class. That last semester just was a disaster. Ended up getting I think a D average. 2.0 or 1.5, 2.0 average. Then I switched college, I decided, I told my wife "I think I want to do--” One of the people, while I switched colleges to study commercial photography, and I had the fortunate-- AC: You think? DR: I had the pleasure of two teachers, and I talk about it all the time. Civil Engineering is what I really wanted to do but this photography just, as I said, I was just addicted to it. So I enrolled in this college and had Mr. Bill Dendle’s class in photography at City College and Jack Stevens who also taught the upper grades. And I was so fortunate to have Mr. Dendle as a teacher. And he would just--like an addict, just feeding me my poison with the knowledge. Oh god, he was fantastic. My first semester there, I won the Sweepstakes Award and about 30% of the ribbons because we had a photo contest among the students. And the first day of class, about 35-40 people in the class, Mr. Dendle said, “I don't care ; sit on the floor, sit wherever you want. By the end of this week there's gonna be half of you and by the of the month just going to be half of (that). At the year there will be maybe five or seven of you left.” And there were only ten of us left that started. AC: Yeah. Yeah. So he knew you had to have the passion to survive. DR: He was, he was--He had a shelf, it must have been twenty feet long by eight feet high full of photo books. And I would go ask him a question, if I had a problem or had a question, he said, “You know that it is a very good question. It's in the books here, why don't you find out. Look for it and find out the answers.” AC: Interesting. DR: And he would do that to me a lot. AC: So he knew that if you would find it for yourself, it would have more value. DR: Oh yeah. AC: And to remembering and keeping-- DR: And, one day about noon, I’d finished my work in the darkroom and he came out and says, “Are you busy right now?” I said no. At this point I was twenty-nine, no twenty-six. I always felt old in class. Kids were 17-18-19 years old. AC: Yeah. Returning students feel-- DR: I'm twenty-three, twenty-four, I’m feeling ancient. So I never mingled with students, fellow students. So he came out to lunch and says, “What are you doing?” I say, “I just finished my dark room work.” He says, “Grab a camera and load it Kodalith film and go take a picture of the quad.” I’d never heard of Kodalith film, it's a graphics arts film. Normal speed of film is 100, 400. This was 6 and I had no idea what it was. So I went and got a 4 x 5 camera, loaded it. Thought I was going to take it--I got a light meter, took it to the quad and took a light reading. It was like a five-second exposure, wide-open on the camera. So I had to go back to get a tripod, went and took the picture, five-second exposures. Back in and processed the film. And I showed it to him and says “What do you want me to do with this?” He said, “Nothing, throw it away.” I said “Well what was that all about?” He said, “Some day when you're a professional, you will be called upon to do different assignments. You better be prepared for anything that comes up.” AC: Wow. DR: We had what's called the photographers bible. It was a book, maybe 5 x 7, by maybe three inches thick with every film, every chemical, every processing imaginable. And that became my bible. I would study that thing left and right. Another thing, one year for Christmas vacation he asked me, “What are you doing for vacation?” Said not a whole lot. He says, “I want you--look up this doctor at a biology lab during Christmas vacation. Want you to shoot color slide, color negative, black and white and infrared film. Go to the doctor with it and ask him what he wants. So Christmas vacation I went, found him and he was doing an autopsy on a cadaver with about four or five students. And I had a cold that day. And they are tearing up this body apart-- AC: Oh dear god. DR: They’re just carving into him and I am taking pictures all over. And I asked the doctor, “What do you want pictures of?” He said “Dendle said you would just come over, I’ve got no use for you.” (laughs) So I shot all those four types of film. So anyway I learned the man had apparently been an alcoholic. They took out his kidneys and his liver, (unclear) cirrhosis. Little five-foot girl riding her fingers along the tendon from her toes up to his hip and I couldn’t smell anything I had a cold that day. But I found out that your hair grows after you’re dead, because the cadaver's bald and it had quarter-inch fuzz on him. And he mentioned that to the students. Which I didn’t notice. His hair keeps on growing. AC: And you had that-- DR: And the fingernails-- AC: On the photo. Lucky you! DR: Yeah right. So after Christmas break I took it all to Dendle, all the proof sheets and all the negatives and everything. “Here's the—what do you want me to do with them?” He said, “Throw them away, I don't want ‘em! I don’t even want to see them.” But that was another lesson in that you’re going to be called upon to do—you don't know what you will be called upon to do. And his advice to me was curiosity. Never lose your curiosity. It will take you through-- AC: You think about journalism and for newspapers, yeah I mean you could-- DR: But I didn't study for newspapers. AC: No, no, I know-- DR: I studied for commercial photography. AC: But he had instincts that you—he didn’t know where you ended up. AC: So he wanted to give you like the worst-case scenario. DR: Right. yeah he wanted to prepare me for whatever came. So he came to me second semester, I think. He said, “How would you like a job working in a photo studio? They don't pay much, a dollar and half an hour. But you work any hours you want. Yopu work weekends, nights, whatever. You get the use of all the cameras, all their equipment, all their paper, everything.” Which was at the time photography was the second most expensive class in college. The first expensive class was welding. So I took that job for a photographer named Bob Boyd, who was another teacher, another instructor. The man was a phenomenal photographer. He worked for Reed, Miller and Murphy Advertising Agency. So I did all his processing, all his pictures. I sent out the color stuff to the labs, but everything else I did. I printed all my stuff, I shot all my assignments in the studio. And like I said, I had just got married. Second--the third semester, Mr. Dendle came up to me and says “How would you like a job on a cruise ship?“ I said, “What are you talking about?” He says, “The Director of the Seven Seas College—Seven Seas University? College. They are touring East China, Japan, Vietnam, going down to Australia and up to North Africa for nine months. No pay. Room and Board, but you can take any class you want. Any you're gonna be the ship's photographer. You can take pictures of whatever anyone wants, of anything. You can take classes of anything you want.” AC: Now at this time you had closed down your landscaping (business) or were you still-- DR: No. AC: Did you turn it over to your dad? DR: I had. I gave up most of the contracts. I saved some for my dad to work three--four days a week, three days a week at the most. He was getting ready to retire on Social Security. AC: But for your own income? DR: I worked weekends and in the photo lab. AC: So you are still doing both. DR: Yes. So I had just gotten married and I didn't think it was good to leave my new wife. AC: For nine months. DR: And my stepson. He was five years old. For nine months and with no income. No money coming in. So I didn't do that. But my last year, Bob Boyd who used to do filming, used to do commercials in San Diego, plus professional photography, commercial, helped him out a lot--asked me to go up to Hayward, California with him for a week. Now this is toward the end of the semester. To do a job up there, film developer for a week. So I talked to Mr. Dendle, and he said, “Yeah go ahead, no problem. Your year is completed, get out of here.” So I did. And I completed my classes there and I started looking for work. I had my brochure. I had my—what they call a—my book. They had a name for it. With some of my best photography. AC: Like a portfolio? DR: A brag. Called it a brag book. AC: Oh okay. DR: And I had it, put photos back-to-back in a binder – drill holes and put a All of my best photography was in there. My good photos were back to back in a binder—drill holes and put a spiral backing on it. I went all over town looking for work. Commercial studios, portrait studios, advertising agencies, all over town. And they all said the same thing. Your stuff is really, really good, but you don't have any experience. Go out and get a job for a year and come back. So it was at this time that one of the salesman for a commercial photography sales came in. I asked him if he knew of anyone who wanted a photographer, I says I’m looking for a job. He said, “As a matter of fact, I came from Escondido and they are looking for a photographer in the Escondido newspaper.” AC: Perfect. DR: They got a newspaper in Escondido? (laughs) I had no idea, 'cause I was just San Diego. Had the San Diego Union, Evening Tribune. So on Sunday, we drove up here and got a newspaper from the stand. And they (San Diego Union) had gone letter press and they (Escondido Times-Advocate) were still using virgin paper. No recycled stuff. And It was bright white. And the type was just--and the printing was just amazing. I couldn’t believe it. And the photography! The pictures looked like they were actual photographs. AC: You could cut them out and-- DR: And I was used to the letter press in San Diego and I couldn’t believe they had the offset press over here. Said, “oh my god!” And the town was little, I think the town (Escondido) was maybe only twenty-thousand at the time, 20-25,000. AC: You know this is a great place to stop, are we good to stop? DR: Oh yeah, sure. Sure, yeah. AC: Wonderful. I’m gonna hit stop. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-03-30.xml RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-03-30.xml https://archivessearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rios, Dan. Interview March 30th, 2017. Description An account of the resource Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. This interview recounts Rios's childhood and early adulthood, and his personal and educational journey towards becoming a news photographer. As a child and teen laborer Rios, due to extreme heat, convinced his field worker family to leave the Central Valley and join his aunts in San Diego. They moved in 1953. As a 14 year old teen high school drop-out, Rios started his own gardening and landscaping business in La Jolla, California. A client convinced Rios to attend night school to get his high school degree. Rios then pursued a civil engineering degree at community college, eventually dropping the pursuit of engineering when he finds his passion for photography. Rios acquired a degree in commercial and portrait photography at San Diego Community college where he met his mentors. After graduation he sought work as a photographer and landed an interview in Escondido for the regional newspaper, the Escondido Times-Advocate. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC003-01 Subject The topic of the resource Agricultural laborers -- California Mesa Community College (San Diego, Calif.) Mexican Americans Photojournalists Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-30 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daniel Flores Rios Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Alexa Clausen Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Hanford (Calif.) La Jolla (San Diego, Calif.) Ocean Beach (San Diego, Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Community history Latine experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/226612c0577f663c67ab24dd321c55c1.pdf cd7aae43e52969e82eec74a15793f4d1 PDF Text Text TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 Biographical Note: Throughout his career Tomme Arthur has gained a reputation in the industry for his focus on Belgianstyle ales, national awards, and mentorship of newer brewers. He is a frequent presenter at various brewing conferences. Tomme Arthur has been involved in several San Diego breweries, most notably as founder and managing owner of Lost Abbey Brewing located in San Marcos, CA. His first professional brewing position was at the short-lived Cervecería La Cruda in San Diego, CA founded by Troy Hojel. Arthur moved to Pizza Port Brewing in Solana Beach, California as an assistant brewer. After becoming Director of Brewing Operations for the increasing number of locations, he led the chain in garnering numerous beer awards. He opened Lost Abbey Brewing in 2006 to focus on his interest in Belgian-style beers. Lost Abbey remained in a partnership with Pizza Port under the Port Brewing umbrella. The Lost Abbey opened in the original location for Stone Brewing, vacated when Stone moved to Escondido, CA. The brewhouse underwent an extensive expansion in 2019 to accommodate the additional beverage brands Hop Concept, Tiny Bubbles and Kharisma. Lost Abbey expansion included tasting rooms The Confessional in Cardiff, CA, The Sanctuary in the San Elijio Hills neighborhood of San Marcos, CA, and The Church in downtown San Diego, CA. In late 2023, Arthur separated Lost Abbey from Port Brewing operations in a ‘right-sizing’ plan in response to beer industry trends. Port Brewing retained the Hop Concept, Tiny Bubbles, and Kharisma brands in their portfolio and took over the San Marcos production space and closed the tasting room. Lost Abbey entered an alternating proprietorship agreement with Mother Earth Brewing to share their production space in nearby Vista, CA. Mother Earth had closed a tasting room at this location when they moved the bulk of brewing operations to Idaho. Arthur announced plans to renovate and re-open the tasting room space. Judith Downie: 00:00:00 So today is August 8th, 2019 and this is Judith Downie, the Curator of the CSUSM Brewchive® with Tomme Arthur, founder and co-owner of Lost Abbey, the Hop Concept, Port Brewing, and myriad other projects that we're going to be asking about. So tell me, the purpose of this is to kind of record in one place things I've seen in a lot of places. You know, you've been very generous with your time with people mentoring and interviewing. And so this is for the Brewchive®, basically an overall history of your life experiences as a brewer, thoughts, things like that. So, we do have a list of questions here, which again I'll read them off, I may reword them a little bit and you are open to responding to them however you need. And I hope we have plenty of time that you've talked about things that maybe nobody's ever asked you. Tomme Arthur: 00:00:59 That would be fun. Yeah. JD: 00:01:01 So record these things for posterity. So, let's start with your background. To be clear, from what I've seen, you started home Transcribed by Judith Downie 1 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 brewing in Arizona while you were in college and how did that start? TA: 00:01:16 So I am a native San Diegan. My family's three to four generations on both sides. Went to Saint Augustine High School. When I was in high school, I decided that I really liked the English language and I wanted to study English and felt that teaching was a path that I would probably take. JD: 00:01:30 Okay. TA: 00:01:31 And so I fell in love with Flagstaff as a campus and community. And the school at Northern Arizona University had a really good education teaching program. So that's how I ended up in Flagstaff. When I got to school, I met a family, last name is Gardner and, and their son, Tom. And I became very close and the Gardner family really was into beer and they were sort of my mentors to beer. TA: 00:02:00 And they said, you know, we're going to teach you about better beer. And of course, I was only 18 at the time, but you know, I wasn't gonna say no. And they kind of pushed me in this direction of here's what better beer looks like, tastes like. American beer, imported beer, Canadian, very English, you know, all the, all the different countries where a great beer would have come from. A lot of it at that time was imported of course. JD: 00:2:22 Right. Because really, you know, we're talking what the... TA: 00:2:26 1991 and 95 was when I was in school. JD: 00:2:27 Okay. So there really wasn't much of a craft beer scene in Arizona I don't think. TA: 00:2:31 There were very few craft breweries in Arizona. In fact, there were no craft breweries in Flagstaff at the time. We ended up having three open up in my last year of school. But there were no craft breweries in Flagstaff and at that time. There was likely to be 10 or 15 probably in the entire state. But we've got a lot of regional beers. There was a lot of beer from Oregon, Washington, Northern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado beer. So there was some American craft. But mostly from very older players, you know, Sierra Nevada Anchor, Deschutes <Brewery>, big, bigger breweries. Transcribed by Judith Downie 2 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:03:08 And being that the craft beer scene in San Diego was still pretty young in that time period. Do you remember seeing anything from San Diego? TA: 00:03:16 No. In fact we, we actually talk about this a lot, that prior to Stone Brewing coming into San Diego, nobody actually sent beer outside of San Diego. Karl Strauss <Brewing> had beer in San Diego at the time and packaged in bottles. But they, I don't believe much of their beer, if any, was leaving the San Diego area. So my understanding is that it really wasn't until Stone opened their doors and shipped beer to Arizona, likely maybe Nevada, you need to ask them, where they crossed the state line and perhaps were one of the original new craft breweries to actually make beer to leave San Diego. JD: 00:03:51 Which is really interesting because I have in my pre-Prohibition research on San Diego craft brewing found Mission Brewing. They were brewing beer to supplement San Diego Consolidated Brewing, which is San Diego Brewing Company <today>. They were San Diego Consolidated Brewing for a while and Arizona passed Prohibition in 1914, five years before National Prohibition and halted any shipment of even Hopski, which was a near beer Mission was brewing, into the state. They weren't even allowing that. And there was a big lawsuit and Mission Brewing lost and that was the contributing factor to the closure of Mission through that. TA: 00:04:28 They actually lost out on a nonalcoholic or near beer. JD: 00:04:31 Yeah. Hopski, and they didn't continue to brew that because J. H. Zitt, who was the president, the current owner of San Diego Consolidated Brewing had said ‘I will never brew anything but real beer.’ So he's the one who decided to close Mission. Because he actually owned it at the time because his father-inlaw and brother-in-law, who had founded Mission, had walked away. TA: 00:04:58 Yeah, the old San Diego stuff is really interesting. JD: 00:05:00 Yeah, and it's a, it's an interesting kind of parallel between you being in Arizona and starting your interest in beer there and then coming back to San Diego. Transcribed by Judith Downie 3 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:05:12 But I've also seen that you've noted that your favorite beers are Belgian style. What? TA: 00:05:16 I just find them to be very unique and I think that there's, there's a pretty, I guess when I first got started in brewing in my sort of craft foundation, they were the most unique things out there. And that, that today is not necessarily the case. There's so many new producers and people that have really taken the boundaries and, and stretched them and moved them in directions. I think ostensibly under a Belgian influence or sort of what amounts to be a Belgian artistry, but there's a lot more to it these days. And I just think that if you, if you become imaginative about beer, you have to look at what the Belgians did or were doing at that time. Technique wise, yeast wise flavors, just process things. Very unconventional via what, what would amount to be a very conventional sort of brewing, you know, take four malts or take four ingredients. You can, you used a lot of water and hops and that's beer. And then you look at what they do. And it's completely different. JD: 00:06:10 So you think the Belgians weren't constrained by the purity law that the Germans had and that's part of what led to their inventiveness? TA: 00:06:17 Yeah, I just feel like they as a group embraced different methodologies and, and that sometimes weren't easy. And those methods at least preserved flavors that couldn't be found in beer, again, conventional beer. JD: 00:06:33 Okay. Very interesting. So, onto your actual brewing experiences. You started home brewing? I read it was a homebrew kit... TA: 00:06:44 So the Gardner’s bought me a home brew kit early for my graduation. So, I was gifted it in January of 1995 and that's when we started homebrewing. JD: 00:06:50 Okay. And you didn't like the first beer you brewed? TA: 00:06:52 The first beer we brewed, it was a black style, you know, sort of a dry Irish Guinness-style stout, but it came out very thin and didn't taste like Guinness or anything. So it wasn't, it was not a good beer. But you know, I think the expectations were high and probably should have set the bar a little lower. JD: 00:07:08 Was this extract or all grain? Transcribed by Judith Downie 4 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 TA: 00:07:09 It was extract for sure. JD: 00:07:12 Yeah. Because of course supplies even in the 90s, were still kind of hard to come by. TA: 00:07:15 Yeah, we were pretty lucky there was a homebrewer outpost in Flagstaff, so there was a store that sold ingredients that we could've, we could've started in an all-grain basis. But I was living in a house with four people and it just wasn't really, I didn't have the resources to go build a full all grain brewing system, with the plastic fermenters and you know, boiling on the stove top kind of stuff was definitely where it was at. JD: 00:07:40 Yeah, you got to start somewhere. So, then you came back to San Diego. Was that, what was the reason for coming leaving Arizona? TA: 00:07:47 So I graduated in June or May of 1995. JD: 00:07:50 So was this your bachelor's or your teaching credential? TA: 00:07:52 This was my bachelors of arts in just English. And at that point I didn't really want to stay in Flagstaff and I wasn't gonna attend grad school there. So, I moved back home and so I left. And when I got home I kind of kicked around a little bit trying to figure out what I was going to do and really didn't have a plan necessarily I was able to go back and live with my parents. And you know, the only requirement was that I find a job. So, I found a job and that's kinda how I got in the downtown life. My dad had a printing business when I was growing up, so I was very, very well trained and I worked in the campus print shop when I was in school. So, I applied for a printing job in a downtown San Diego business and I was commuting, taking the trolley from La Mesa down into downtown San Diego every day. And I happened to be reading want ads, just, it was all that was left in the newspaper at that point. And stumbled upon a brew pub opening that had an ad in the paper for cooks, dishers, all that stuff in it said assistant brewer and I circled it. And I walked over the next day at lunch and applied for a job. And that was actually Cervecería La Cruda. JD: 00:09:00 Right, with Troy Hojel? So, you actually opened Cervecería La Cruda in September of ‘96? TA: 00:09:10 No, they, they would have opened, I think it would've been March of 96 ‘cause we ended up, we attended the great Transcribed by Judith Downie 5 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 American beer festival in September, October of 96 and then it closed. It was less than a full year. I think I was hired in April, May-ish. and then I wasn't there even for a full year. JD: 00:09:27 Yeah. I have, I have March ‘97 is when it closed. TA: 00:09:31 So I think it probably was mid April-ish I would've been hired in. We didn't even make it a full year. JD: 00:09:39 Yeah. This is the kind of thing I like because I have a very large Excel spreadsheet of every brewery from 1868 which was Chollas Valley Brewery through today. Whether they opened or closed, it never made it, pulled the license, whatever... TA: 00:09:55 So, how many different breweries have attempted to open? Are we in the three hundreds or? JD: 00:09:58 Well, my Excel spreadsheet also includes all the individual tasting rooms because generally they pull a separate ABC license. I'm up over 550 getting close to 600 I think, but I could certainly get back to you with how many tried and never even actually opened. I think there's a real object lesson there. TA: 00:10:18 I think the most interesting thing is that we operate that there's 160 or whatever right now that are active, but it's really interesting to know kind of how many have kind of opened and closed and opened and closed and where you know, you can say, okay, since prohibition we've had 208 that have tried or participated in this, in this scene. JD: 00:10:37 Yeah, because I break the whole history into three parts. There was a pre-Prohibition 1868 to 1919, 1919/1920 then 1933 to 1953 because Aztec, which had sold to Altes Brewing, closed and they were the last brewery operating post-Prohibition and then we didn't pick up again until the <19>80s so I can extract that information and get it to you because those numbers are always very powerful. TA: 00:11:05 Yeah. I just feel like it'd be interesting to say since Prohibition, there's been 208 licenses that were issued or over, you know, JD: 00:11:12 And then there were others that announced a name or announced that they were going to open and never even got around to pulling a license. You know, so I have, I have every single possible name of any business that ever said ‘we are going to be a brewery or a brew pub, or...’ Transcribed by Judith Downie 6 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 TA: 00:11:28 No one ever drops on in front of you and you say, haven't heard of it. JD: 00:11:30 Well actually not too long ago, I ran across one called the Royal Duffer. And that evidently they were contract brewing. They were in Carlsbad and they were like four golf buddies. And so they had beer for, again, I think it was less than a year. And I haven't been able to find out too much information from them, but I'm very alert to, ‘Oh, I don't think I've ever heard of that name before’ so this is the first one I've not heard of in a long time. So I think I'm pretty comprehensive. But yeah. Yeah, it's been interesting and a lot of work. But going back to Troy, is Troy still around? TA: 00:12:10 He is in somewhere in Colorado outside of Denver. In fact, I just talked to him the other day. He texted me, I think his cousin opened a brewery in Texas and he had a question or two. TA: 00:12:20 So yeah. He's in Colorado and doing the software. JD: 00:12:23 Okay. So he's no longer in the brewing business. TA: 00:12:25 No, actually he left the brewery business and ended up doing software in Northern California for a bit, I think, and then moved off to Colorado. JD: 00:12:33 Well, it's gotta be sad to watch your dream die especially so quickly. TA: 00:12:35 You know, it was a pretty aggressive life lesson, you know? It taught me a lot in the short time that we were into it. I still think that Troy is one of the best brewers I've ever met. And it would've been a really cool thing to see it succeed at, but certainly would've put me on a different life path, I think if it had. So I don't, I don't try not to, you know, revisionist history, that part of it. But the beers that he made and he was a very technical brewer, I think, I think it would've been, it would've added to the scene even more. JD: 00:13:05 Yeah. What actually happened? Was it just lack of sales? TA: 00:13:09 I think more than anything it was a bad, is a bad business model. I don't know if you know the story of Baja Brewing Company. JD: Transcribed by Judith Downie 00:13:17 I'm familiar with the name, but not really the story. 7 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 TA: 00:13:20 So Baja Brewing Company opened up and they claimed to be the very first Mexican-themed brewpub in the United States. Now it was their claim to fame. But what happened is that the partners at Baja Brewing and the partners at La Cruda actually had a schism and they split. They were going to open the Baja Brewing Company together or something along those lines and they had a falling out and the partnership dissolved. And so these guys opened Baja Brewing Company and less than three or four months later Cervecería La Cruda opened up three blocks away. So the very first Mexican theme brewpub in this country opened up and three blocks later and three months and three blocks over the second one opened. So, very underfunded from the get-go. Very, it was a 13,000 square foot building at Forth and Island, you know, big, big building. Too much of it to just for the time I, I'd be nervous opening a 13,000 square foot building brewpub today. And you know, back when the Gaslamp was kind of still new and trendy and hot, I don't know what the rent was, but just overall a bad, a bad vision I think for what was going on. JD: 00:14:31 Ahead of its time. Really. TA: 00:14:32 Yeah. And the thing that's kind of crazy is that Cervecería La Cruda to them is a hangover brewery. So when you say ‘tengo la cruda’, that means I have the crud, I'm not feeling well. That's not a real great way to tell people you want to come here and drink. They opened up with a menu that they had sourced from the family that owned El Callejon in Encinitas. So, they had this really great, I would say deep, deep Mexican Sonoran source, you know, for and things. But that wasn't on anyone's radar with respect to craft brew at the time. So, good people, great, great opportunity. But not even something, that I think today, even if you attempted to tackle it, would probably work really well. JD: 00:15:12 So as you say, a real experience. TA: 00:15:14 Yeah, a lot I learned from, you look around and you see simplicity sometimes wins. JD: 00:15:20 Or slow growth. Planned slower. TA: 00:15:22 Or have more money than you think. Yeah. Transcribed by Judith Downie 8 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:15:27 Somebody said to me one time something like, you need five times more than you think you do. And I would, I think that's true with any business really. But the expense of equipment and materials and everything and you just can't do it all yourself. TA: 00:15:40 No. You gotta be able to weather a lot of storms. JD: 00:15:44 And you know, with this, I know in September of 2016 I went to the craft beer conference up in Sacramento and I saw you speak there and you at that time, this is three years ago now, said that San Diego was already over-saturated, and you would not open up a brewery at this point in San Diego. And how many breweries have we had open up? TA: 00:16:06 Continues to be a head-scratching thing. Yeah. Well, we joke, I mean, we're here in San Marcos now. I've got three breweries within a one-mile stretch. Right. So yeah, that's just the way it is. Yeah. JD: 00:16:21 But you're each different. Accommodating everybody at some point. But so when La Cruda closed, you moved to White Labs for just a couple of months in yeast sales. Was that based because you knew about yeast? TA: 00:16:34 So White Labs had just kinda gotten their feet wet. So I remember the very first day when I was at La Cruda, one of the very first days I was at La Cruda. Chris White1 walked in on a sales call. And so we were chatting and talking and at some point, and this is a part of my history that I don't remember all of that clearly, but I ended up moving in with them. I mean I was a roommate and I think there was a crossover point where I was working at La Cruda, but I already moved into their house. Cause he and Lisa had an empty room. I needed a place to stay. And then when La Cruda was on its way to be closing it became kind of obvious that I could help them in their infancy of their company with some just R and D and just different trialing and things like that. TA: 00:17:15 You know, I had met a lot of brewers in Arizona at that time. So Chris said, well, why don't you come help me just kind of knock down some doors and you know, we just need somebody that can walk in and kind of talk about this in a very brewer friendly kind of way. So my goal was I was kind of like an ambassador really. You know, I didn't really do a lot of pure sales but my job was to talk about it and explain how my experience with 1 Chris White is the founder of White Labs. Transcribed by Judith Downie 9 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 different yeasts and temperatures and things like that. So it was kind of just yeah, I think it was more of a product, product knowledge and ambassador at that point. JD: 00:17:47 Was there any conversation at that time about opening up a tasting room for yeast labs? TA: 00:17:51 No. No. I mean, maybe Chris had it, but it you know, that was a pretty, it was a long time ago and there wasn't really a sense of yeast as a business outside of the yeast business. I don't think there was sort of that auxiliary layer to it. I'm sure Chris would have liked to have had a bunch of beers on tap, but I, I would imagine if he had had that thought back then that they would have probably just wanted 10 beers on tap for their customers to come sample them, but not necessarily not, not really treat it as an educational function for the consumer as much as an educational experience for a brewer who maybe hadn't worked a certain use and things like that. I mean there's just an enormous amount of yeasts that have been banked since we started. Since I got my first job in 1996 there's been an enormous amount of new yeast that had been added. So, they need an avenue to show people what those yeasts do. JD: 00:18:41 And back then too, you probably had a lot of brewers, even professional brewers, would be how I see it. That didn't really understand a lot about the hops that were available. The yeast that was available, you know, cause a lot of them had, were coming out of the homebrew experience and you know, all of a sudden here's more stuff you need to know. TA: 00:19:02 If you go back and look at it ‘95, ‘96 to, so that time, I mean we're talking about a dial up modem, you know, we're talking about low internet speed, we're talking about not... JD: 00:19:08 A lot of people, not even having computers or knowing how to use it. TA: 00:19:12 Not even a lot of Information online. Frankly. I mean you couldn't, you could not do all the kind of information that's out there today. And, and past that, a lot of the information that did exist in book format was highly technical through the ASBC2 and the big brewers. And then what was available that had been written about the sort of homebrew level and medium brewery. There wasn't a lot of medium brewery stuff in there, so you American Society of Brewing Chemists. Transcribed by Judith Downie 2 10 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 were getting a lot of books on how to brew ales, but they had this really big English, you know, sort of basis to them. Cask condition, real ale ingredients weren't American in their basis. So there was no ability to look up and say, Oh, how do I use this German hefeweizen yeast? You know, how do I, how much do I pitch it, what temperature, how does it behave? And none of that information existed. JD: 00:19:59 So a lot of technical stuff. TA: 00:20:00 Yeah. even just simplistic technical. What's the right temperature? JD: 00:20:03 And around here San Diego was still something of a Coors town that's San Diego was test market for a couple of different, for Coors Light and for Herman Joseph's 1868 and you know, so really do you have much of a market for... TA: 00:20:18 In fact, we joked about it here. This was the best, I think this was the best-selling Coors light town when I took in, when I got into brewing, this was the number one Coors Light in the country. JD: 00:02:26 Yes, it was. TA: 00:02:28 Well that explains to you, you know, where we're, where we were and where we came from. And on top of that you had all the import beers too, right? You still had Coronas and Pacifico and the Modelos in the world doing very well here at that time too. So yeah, it was a, it was a long ways to the top. JD: 00:20:42 So you weren't at White Labs for very long before you were hired by Pizza Port. Pizza Port just had the one location then, right? TA: 00:20:48 They had the one location in Solana Beach. Vincent, Gina3 had been partners in the Carlsbad Public House with a guy named Brett. I think his last name was Stamp. JD: 00:21:00 Tetley Ridden4, I, it's a hyphenated name. TA: 00:21:07 Yeah. And then he became a, they, they had a falling out with Carlsbad Public House and they were in, they were in the 3 4 Vincent and Gina Marsaglia Redmayne-Titley Transcribed by Judith Downie 11 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 process of converting the Public House, which is the Pizza Port in Carlsbad in the village into the Pizza Port at that time. So I was, I was brought into assist on Solana Beach because the head brewer was going to go have shoulder surgery and then they were supposed to move me up to Carlsbad to take over the production of the brewing and Carlsbad once, once he came back. So there was almost a second Pizza Port in line at that time. So they were, they were in the home stretch of the construction to convert it from the Public House to Pizza Port, which opened in July of 1997 so they were real close. And I always like to tell the story ‘cause I think it's very fascinating to me. I'd never stepped foot in Pizza Port before I got interviewed for the job. So I had no real perceived concept or notion of what exactly they did or what they didn't do. JD: 00:22:02 Okay. And so you were an assistant brewer then? You weren't head brewer? TA: 00:22:10 Yeah. Eddie Class, I think his last name was Classic. He was the head brewer at that time. And Vince was going to be the head brewer in Carlsbad when they opened. So yeah, Eddie was in charge of the brewery in Solana Beach and he was gonna go, I think I was going to have rotator cuff surgery and take about three months off. And then when he came back I was supposed to go take the job in Carlsbad. JD: 00:22:30 Okay. but you, you obviously that didn't quite work out that way, but you were promoted to Director of Brewery Operations in June of 2005. TA: 00:22:38 Yeah, that was a short stint ‘cause we were getting ready to open this place too. So yeah. JD: 00:22:43 So you already knew you were going to be moving on? TA: 00:22:46 We were having conversations at that point about how to get to here. We, I think in June it kind of was a collective. They terminated Kirk McHale, who was the brewer in Carlsbad in June of 2005 and then there was the San Clemente location, Carlsbad location, and Solana Beach. And I was asked to kind of tackle all three of them at the same time, make sure that they were more or less on the same page, collectively, kind of get them aligned. And then we also knew that we were having conversations about a new partnership and trying to build up the partnerships so that we could get this, this facility put into our orbit. Transcribed by Judith Downie 12 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:23:24 Okay. So that leads me into the founding Port Brewing in partnership with Vince and Gina. And you know, you have Port Brewing, you have Lost Abbey, you have the Hop Concept and I've also seen that you're involved in an Arizona brewery called Moto Sonora. So can you explain the structure of everything? TA: 00:23:49 Yeah. When we started talking to Stone Brewing about buying this facility from them you know, my love of Belgian beers was pretty strong and I knew that we wanted to make some things out here that were very barrel aged, Belgian influenced and all that. And we had this, Vince had the idea for the brand called the Lost Abbey. So we were very, very keen on the fact that we knew that was going to happen. There were a lot of beers at Pizza Port that were being produced that needed to kind of stretch and grow and needed to get from get out from under just being a pub-based beer. And that allowed, you know, people who had been asking for more, you know, basically Pizza Port beer. And that's where the Port Brewing came from. So the Port Brewing beers, many of them when we opened our doors here came from Solana Beach recipes that I had produced, Hop 15, Santa’s Little Helper, Shark Attack. We brought the Wipe Out recipe over from Carlsbad and those beers had a lot of legacy towards the pubs and, and kind of, you know, grew them out of that realm. But we knew that there'd be the Port brand’s very West coast centric, you know, kind of that Ballast Point, Coronado, Green Flash, Stone kind of mentality. You know, higher hopping rates, you know, sometimes imperial, things like that. We always knew that that wasn't really that wasn't going to be our principal focus in the sense that we were going to have the two brands, but we also knew that having the two brands side by side allowed us to walk in and have a wide range of beers without having everything be a Lost Abbey beer or Port Brewing beer. JD: 00:25:15 Okay. And then the Hop Concept is a fairly recent addition to the portfolio. TA: 00:25:20 So a few years ago I walked into a bar and all the beer names on the wall really just confused me. There were so many new beers and I had no idea what they tasted like. And I didn't want to be a bother to the bartenders and try to, you know, ask them this or that. And I'm not an Untappd person. I don't really use digital media to tell me what I should be drinking. So, it kinda came back to we wanted to create a line of beers that were very fresh Transcribed by Judith Downie 13 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 and simplistic in their makeup. So, the Hop Concept beers, we had a line called the Hop Freshener series and they were basically we had ‘Dank and Sticky’ and ‘Citrus and Piney and ‘Lemon and Grassy’ and ‘Tropical and Juicy’. And it was essentially taste and smell. And we, all we were trying to do was tell the consumer and the bartender, this is what you should expect the beer to taste like, or smell like. And it was a quick, straightforward deliverable and it was meant to be a, I use the word simple, but simple deliverable like you knew what you were getting. We were setting you up to understand how that beer should taste and behave. JD: 00:26:16 Yeah, it does seem like naming beers because they do have to be registered names or whatever, becomes a bigger and bigger challenge. And in just looking at a name on the board, you frequently have no idea of what that beer really is. So, something like this where you're going back to the basics, this is what you're going to get. I think must be very attractive. TA: 00:26:36 I thought the cleanliness of it for us, which was just straightforward and nomenclature and deliverable TA: 00:26:44 Like this is this is what you can expect and... JD: 00:26:47 Your label designs are very clean and very clear. Where Lost Abbey looks much more European, Medieval in a lot of ways. TA: 00:26:55 And we went out and we went out and hired a firm for the first time to really, we told them this is what our vision is and this is why we're doing it this way, but we want you to make sure we produce this with a very crisp look to it. And they, they certainly executed that and I, and I think that's always been a strength of that brand. JD: 00:27:13 Yeah. Let me ask you a little bit about the latest venture, Moto Sonora. I read that this was evidently your college roommate you are in partnerships with and his younger brother. And, of course, this is taking you back to Arizona. TA: 00:27:30 It is. Tucson, not Flagstaff. I wish it was in Flagstaff, but I'm going to come to like Tucson cause it's closer. But yeah, my, it's kind of ironic because this was a random sort of thing back when, when I was in college with Jeff. Jeff really wasn't a big beer drinker but it turns out but his brother Jeremy really fell in love with craft beer and the two of them kind of decided that Transcribed by Judith Downie 14 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 they have a high value for the city of Tucson. They loved that area. They've got deep roots in the community there. Their family, the DeConcini family's been a, been a big part of the Arizona scene and they just wanted to do this project. And I started talking to them as a consultant and just kind of saying, let me, let me hear what you're thinking. And then they said, well, maybe you could spend some more time on it. And I said, yeah, I've got the time to do that. TA: 00:28:18 Let's, let's do this. So, I am coming in as one of the co-founders on that project. Port Brewing is not involved in the sense that we're not invested in it. JD: 00:28:26 That was a question I had. TA: 00:20:28 We're not, Port Brewing is not an investor in the company. Although I have permission with my partners to supply as many ingredients and things, you know, that we can, we can work to make sure that the beers there are at the highest, you know, sort of capacity. And if it means we're buying the hops and selling them hops and things like that, that's gonna happen. You know, I see it as potentially a training ground where if one of our brewers wants the position when we get going or they, you know, we want to move people out that way. But this is not anything more than a co-founding situation where I have the freedom to go tight, you know, take on other projects. I, I kind of liken it to chefs having multiple locations or bar owners having, you know, other projects and things. But I'm not moving to Tucson and I'm not going to be the head brewer there. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to establish what we're doing and push the company in the right direction and make sure that we become a really valuable part of that community. We've been definitely looking forward to the, just being involved in it and you know, a different beer scene at the same time. JD: 00:29:24 Well, this kind of jumps over some of the questions I have because it leads into the amount of mentoring and work with newer brewers and the collaborations you do with the more established brewers. You are renowned in the industry for how people can come to you and pick your brain and you support and mentor in so many different ways. I see you as a oneperson campaign to ensure craft beer success. And, and this is in comparison with efforts like Stone's True Craft where there were more financial assistance. Have you always been a remarkable mentor? It sounds kind of like, you know, you're, you're thinking to become a teacher. Transcribed by Judith Downie 15 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 TA: 00:30:05 Yeah. I think that's a big part of it, right? It's a, it's a sense of, you know, that shared piece. You know, I remember very, very early in my, in my Solana Beach days, I wanted to make a Saison-style beer and I needed to find somebody who could give me the answer for how much ginger I was supposed to put in the beer. Cause I wanted to make the beer with some ginger. And there weren't many places where I could turn to. And I picked up the phone one day and I called the owner of LeftHand Brewing Company, his name was Dick Doore. And I said, Dick, you guys have this amazing Juju, ginger pale ale. I love it. Would you be willing to share that information with me? And he did. And he, you know, and we'd barely met. And it was one of those things that, okay, yeah, that's how the industry works. Right. And you know, this is something that I think Troy had put in my head back in the day was like, there are the right people to be talking to and then there's the wrong people. And the wrong people are the ones that don't freely exchange the information, or they don't, they don't try to push it uphill. And for the longest time we had so much work to do in this town to push the level uphill that we collectively had to talk about it. I mean, everybody I think that you would interview would have the similar sense of if we didn't all work together then we wouldn't have gotten to where we were. JD: 00:31:18 Isn't that the principle behind the San Diego Brewers Guild? TA: 00:31:21 Of course, you know, the very first Guild meeting was out at La Cruda. So yeah. Yes, for sure that the Guild, you know, I think we were the very first city in the country to have its own brewers guild. TA: 00:31:31 And that, that's kind of a, you know, a feather in the cap for what I think, you know, the old, the old guard or the people that really did, you know, hunker down back in the day was that there was a true sense that there was going to be something really good about the scene here. But we had to work really hard at it. So, I've always liked that conversational aspect of it. I believe that I can, I can ask the right questions with friends and people and, and if I can turn around and get that information back out, it makes sense. So yeah, why not? I mean, there's, there's very little, I guess I don't feel very competitive or threatened by it by that, you know, that dialogue or that sharing of information. Transcribed by Judith Downie 16 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:32:05 I think that's, I mean, I, I'm on certain, like the San Diego Plexus Facebook group and stuff, and your name comes up and everybody says, Tomme Arthur, he's the person to talk to. He is the god locally, you know, I mean, your name is always used in very positive way, which I think really speaks to the efforts that you have put into the community and supporting, especially newer brewers, but also working with other established brewers and not treating it as competition but treating it as we can all be better. TA: 00:32:34 And I think the one thing that's kind of maddening these days, and this is, this is my personal soap box] is that there's a lot of TA: 00:32:39 People that are collaborating on things. And I'm, I'm very concerned about this new sense of collaborating because I don't know that it's doing much other than it's bringing people together. And then you say, well what did we change and what did we do? And I'm like, okay. But I think the collaborative narrative of old was we collaborated on something because it was going to be something demonstratively different than we could have done singularly. And I'm not sure that much of that's going on today. So, when we collaborate with an old guard or with someone new, we're, we're really trying to have a sense of purpose. And I hope that people continue to realize that just collaborating with someone for the sake of sales isn't always, I guess from where I come, from isn't always the best course of action. JD: 00:33:25 Again, going to your mentoring, have you had the opportunity to open doors for specific groups? And I'm thinking women or minorities or people with disabilities, people, you know, because the standard concept of a brewer is a male, white guy, you know, I mean that just still is. It's not that way anymore. But have you had opportunities to work with or speak to groups to encourage them? TA: 00:33:51 I was thinking about this the other day because you know, I look at our staff, it is generally mostly male. We have had a few female employees on the beer side in the past and they've been phenomenal employees. And I was thinking the other day that we haven't done enough in our world to cultivate that specifically. And I know the Brewers Association is pretty keen on promoting diversity and things these days. And I'm wondering as an educational mentor, et cetera, where I should be looking to do some of those things or how I get involved in that. You know, where, where can I be impactful in that, in that space. And I don't know if it's through the university or through, 17 2024-01-04 Transcribed by Judith Downie �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 you know, there's a big Latino population up here in San Marcos and Vista. But clearly, you know, being white and being white isn't always the best thing. With respect to trying to, you know, we've got to find new, new people to energize and really enthuse about what we do. And preaching to the 40-year-old male white choir isn't, isn't the best place to live in. JD: 00:34:47 Well, I don't know if you're aware of Border X <Brewing>, which is of course down in Barrio Logan has, is sponsoring a women's beer club called Mujeres Brew Club. I'm sorry, I, my Spanish isn't that swell. And they invited me to be their first speaker and they're doing a meeting each month on a different aspect and at the end they are going to brew a beer at Border X. And the women that are in there, many of them don't know even beer styles. I mean, one woman evidently asked the question, what's an IPA? And so, you know, and it's, it's a safe space for women and it does have a large number of Latina women, which I think is phenomenal because maybe some of these will become brewers and there are women are working in the beer industry in San Diego who are also members. JD: 00:35:40 Some of them are speakers and some are just attending the meetings because they're always eager to learn more. So maybe reaching out to, or you know, helping sponsor a group like that or Pink Boots Society5 of course, you know, is always looking for speakers and educational opportunities and things. But you know, there's a growing presence, but it is hard to, when women are so scattered or you know, like you say it's underrepresented with the minorities or you know, and there are certain positions that probably someone with a physical disability couldn't perform in a brewhouse, what could they do? Can they be the quality control people, things like that. So, it seems like there are places that we need to increase. TA: 00:36:24 Yeah. It's interesting because I was thinking about this again the other day. I was like, we just don't have that many women apply for jobs. It's, it's you know, I, you know, I have a, a fairly good amount of men working, you know males, working on the floor. But I can't remember the last time I saw an application come in for a brewing position from a woman. So somehow the outreach needs to get further than, you know, I'm talking entrylevel packaging jobs, things like that. There's, there's clearly, you know, there's, it's not a bias in our world. They're just not International organization for women and non-binary people in the fermentation industry. The first chapter was founded in San Diego. 5 Transcribed by Judith Downie 18 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 coming and knocking down our door. So somehow we have to convince them that this isn't, this is a pretty good place where they could, you know, they can, they can find careers and homes. JD: 00:37:04 Well, if you do want to advertise positions, I have a couple of resources. I can push things out to Pink Boots San Diego for one. And then there's another Facebook page of women interested in beer. Some are working in the industry; some are maybe looking to get into the industry. And of course, maybe pushing the word out to the EngiBeering® program at Cal State San Marcos. ‘Cause there are, there's at least a couple of women enrolled in that program. But yeah, it's hard because there aren't many women available to bring in. But then, you know, we do have a, you know, a fairly strong Hispanic population in this area. So, you know, why can't we leverage that? And it's finding those points of contact. That's a, that's a continual problem that I have seen. Also, to kind of jump back, I mentioned Stone's True Craft effort, which, you know, obviously died. It was a great idea to help small, small breweries with financing to where they didn't have to sell themselves to big beer. What did you think of that idea when you thought, heard of it? TA: 00:38:01 You know, I had a lot of friends that took meetings with them. I mean, at least on the surface I was told, you know, Hey, we've, we've gone and talked to them about it. I think the biggest challenge was, is that that was at a time when there was a lot of unrealistic expectations about valuations and what, what things were worth or how, how long term, you know, how companies would be out, people would work long term together. You know, it's an interesting model because this business is such a, almost a loner thing. Like most people open their own little brewery and then at some point you need more investment in that comes with a lot more triggers and kinds of parameters and stuff in some small breweries never outgrow the small, you know, model. They, I'm the single proprietor, not me. They are a single proprietor, ownership kind of environment and you know, they borrow money from the bank and that's what they get and that's what they want to be. You know, there's a very passionate pursuit for them. And then there's the big business side of it, which says if you're going to scale and grow and you know, buying equipment is not cheap and putting concrete in the ground and copper piping and just every single thing you could think of. Transcribed by Judith Downie 19 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:39:07 And the length time it takes to just deal with all the permitting within the city, within the state, with the ABC6. TA: 00:39:11 And the regulatory. Yeah. All of those pieces. So I applaud Greg for, and Steve, for putting the platform together. You know, the, I think the biggest hurdle for a lot of people is just how, how do you entrepreneurially sign up for something like that? Right? It's, it's, you know, it's a different, it's a different <unclear> in you. You're talking about an environment where you went from being in charge of your own facility to now having new investment that comes with different, again, different triggers and things. I think it's interesting cause nobody signed up to do it and I don't know if that was that the metrics didn't align or how that was. But I know a lot of people took meetings and so I guess the question is, is what, what was, what was unrealistic on both sides for, for that, how come it, how come they didn't get anybody to, to partner with? JD: 00:40:01 Yeah. I'm, I don't know who took meetings, but it would be interesting to talk to them to ask them why they didn't pursue that, and did they find an alternative that worked better for them. So that's on my list of things to do. Since we've mentioned big beer, have you ever been approached by big beer with an offer to purchase you or to work with them in some sort of way? TA: 00:40:25 No. In the 13 years that we've been open no one has put an offer sheet on the table and said, we want to buy you for XYZ dollars or otherwise. We have met with some family offices, venture people, people, you know, my thing is we'll take any meeting just to say hi. Mostly to learn about what people are looking for, what they're doing. But pretty emphatically we've never actually been offered, no one's ever actually offered to purchase us in, in a minority capacity and majority otherwise. So no. JD: 00:41:02 Good. I won't ask you what your response would be, but do you think that maybe partly it's because, I don't want to say you do extreme beers, but you do less run-of-the-mill beers in many cases that might just be something that big beer would not find attractive. TA: 00:41:23 If we live in a fringe world, we're, you know, we're sort of known as a super-premium producer and we have a lot of 6 California’s Alcoholic Beverage Control agency in charge of licensing alcohol production, distribution and sales. Transcribed by Judith Downie 20 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 niches that we feel from barrels and sour. You know, they've, big breweries have a need in sometimes to do that, but they, they, I think they've found those elsewhere and they want scale and they want all kinds of things. You know, San Diego is an interesting model, right. We had Ballast Point sold, you know, Green Flash had sold and we've had a lot of big, bigger companies come through and, and, and have taken investments. And so TA: 00:41:57 I don't know if there was any real need beyond, I think big beer came and found what they needed from San Diego. I'd be surprised if, if there's any big beer-ness left in San Diego. I mean, I say that, and you know, we'll see. But you know, I, I don't, I don't really feel like TA: 00:42:13 That the big beer is kind of be knocking down the doors in San Diego anytime soon. JD: 00:42:16 They got their toe in. TA: 00:42:18 Potentially because of the desaturation and just some of the difficulties that they might experience. ah, it's a, it's a whole, it's a whole run of things and it really has to do with, you know, where can they, where can they scale and where can they find their return on their investment and things like that. JD: 00:42:32 Yeah, no, that's what they're looking at is a bottom line. TA: 00:42:35 It is 100% about how much can they make on what they're buying it. Yeah. JD: 00:42:41 Because your beers are not run of the mill Coors-type beers, not to bash Coors, but just, you know, as an example, where did you get your early inspirations? I mean, you, you said you like the Belgians and you were exposed to a wide variety of European and, and what craft beer was made in the US. But things like oak aging and sour beers, were those things that you were exposed to early on or were those things that you found out later while you were experimenting? TA: 00:43:10 Yeah, it was early. I remember, I remember my first Chimay Red. I remember my first Guinness and I vividly remember the very first Rodenbach I ever had. And I, you know, the Rodenbach I think hit me more than anything else in that really portend, you know, that really does explain why, you know, like, Oh my God, that's okay. I know there's weird beer out there, Transcribed by Judith Downie 21 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 but this is way to the left, right? This thing is way, way downstream from anything I'd had at that point. You know, I was, when on the four years I was in college, I was sampling a lot of beers and then I continued to continue to buy beer. And, and it's just when you get one that's put in front of you and you say, wow, how did they do that? And that was kind of the, the aha that was the light bulb, I think was, was that first Rodenbach. That somebody who's living in a world where that, that's so to the extreme and delicious. But why can't, why can't I, why can't I think about beer like that? And that's, that definitely pushed me in that direction. JD: 00:44:06 Well that's great to have such an open mind. Do you remember who, if anyone else was doing things like barrel aging and sour beers or anything when you started doing it? TA: 00:44:17 Vinnie7 <Cilurzo> and I joke about this a lot cause Vinnie at Russian River and I are pretty good friends and a lot of it comes back to when we first picked up oak barrels and really got into that, you know, late 19, late 1990s, you know, the first batch of cuvée that we were making and they were making beer called Temptation. There was very little of that going on and I knew Belgian had <inaudible. in the market. But out West there weren't a lot of people making sour beer in barrels. And so we had to just kinda kick the can on how to do it. Talk collectively. Again, it got back to, we were not we did not, you know, you know, withhold the secrets. And we talked a lot about the what ifs and things and that I think was a big, big part of the success was just, okay, how are we going to do this in this environment? Because again, you couldn't open a book and read how to do it. Today you can open plenty of books. JD: 00:45:06 Or just find it out there on the web. TA: 00:45:10 I mean, you pick up the phone and call someone, but then back then it isn't, you know, how do you manage your barrel program or what do you, how do you do this? It was, well, I'm going to try, I'm going to try this. Okay. That sounds like that. That seems reasonable to me. Vinnie Cilurzo founded Blind Pig Brewing in Temecula, CA before moving to Northern California to found Russian River Brewing. 7 Transcribed by Judith Downie 22 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 JD: 00:45:22 Oh, so you can't think of anybody specifically locally though? You, I mean, Vinnie, to me, is still local as they were nearby, TA: 00:45:30 For sure, it’s California. JD: 00:45:32 but I'm thinking in San Diego. TA: 00:45:34 You know, I don't know if we, I always say we, being Pizza Port. I don't know if we were the first ones to make intentionally sour beer in San Diego. I don't recall running into it anywhere at that point. But for the sake of clarity, I never say we were the first ones because I truly don't know. There was some oak aging going on the guys at Rock Bottom <Restaurant and Brewery> in La Jolla specifically ‘cause I got barrels from them. AleSmith <Brewing Company>I think was right about that same time, ‘97, ’98-ish where they were getting into having some bourbon barrel kind of things going on. JD: 00:46:06 But that was Skip <Virgilio>8. TA: 00:46:07 Skip doing that. There was not a lot of sour beer in California at that point. So, or even San Diego can that I can recall. JD: 00:46:17 I’m glad sour beer’s around. Okay. You just mentioned cuvée. And I've seen it said that that is your favorite beer. TA: 00:46:26 Perhaps. JD: 00:46:27 Yeah. Perhaps. TA: 00:46:28 It’s the only one that bears my name 9. How's that? JD: 00:46:30 That's true. That's true. On the other hand, is there a beer that you ever made that you didn't care for, but everybody else said, no, we've got to put this on tap. TA: 00:46:43 Ooh, that's a damn good question. JD: 00:46:45 Did they, did it actually sell well? TA: 00:46:48 There is a running joke here at the brewery. We made a beer a few years ago called Spontaneous Cheer. And the Spontaneous 8 9 Skip Virgilio founded AleSmith Brewing and later sold to Peter and Vicky Zien. Cuvée du Tomme. Transcribed by Judith Downie 23 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 Cheer was a peach sour and it was actually spontaneously fermented. So we, we've got some spontaneous fermentation barrels and things that we do from time to time and we have a large library of barrels. We have over a thousand oak barrels full of now and we made this batch of beer and it tasted pretty darn good. That being said, I struggled with it personally because it didn't really manifest our house culture. We have a very strong sour beer sense. Like there's a terroir in our world. You can taste the Lost Abbey beer and it's white grapey and it's stone peach fruit. And you can tell that there's something about the way that we blend in and package. And that beer had none of it, even though it was a peach beer. But that's because all of the cultures came from the spontaneous portion. And so, people were like, you have to release this beer. And I can't in good conscience release it because you could open it in a tasting room in Texas and you'd have no idea it came from us and what's the point of that? So that's probably the one in this environment that had garnered a lot of energy I would say, okay, that's not what I was, didn't hate the beer, just wasn't keen on it. Bearing the name Lost Abbey being sour and didn't, didn't exude us. JD: 00:48:15 And so you have not brewed it again since. TA: 00:48:18 No, we haven’t. Even though we likely could, and people would freak for it, but it doesn't, again, it gets really to the point of, you know, we're really trying to have that identity in a big sea of imitations. I would think that that was probably a one-anddone. I'd be surprised if it came back. JD: 00:48:35 Okay, if I ever see an unopened bottle of it, I'll know that that's truly special. TA: 00:48:39 So we never bottled it. That's the only bottle that I think, I mean it was, it was literally only one oak barrel, so 50 gallons. But I think we only bottled it. I had a friend who had a baby and there was a request, but I, there shouldn't, there shouldn't be any bottles of that out in the world. There are, they probably aren't real. JD: 00:48:55 Yeah. Well, we'll know that they are shams. What was your very first award for brewing? TA: 00:49:04 That's a good question. JD: Transcribed by Judith Downie 00:49:08 You've had so many. 24 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 TA: 00:49:09 I know like, let's see. We had strong ale in 19... Well, okay. The very first award that I know for certain was the gold medal that I participated in at La Cruda. We won a gold medal10 for the Makanudo Porter, but that was not my beer and I was not the recipe generator. So I would say probably a beer that we brewed at Pizza Port and that was part of the Strong Ale Festival in ‘97 or ‘98. And then at that point we started entering the Real Ale Festival in Chicago or some California State Fair stuff. We did not win a GABF11 award until 1999, 2000. JD: 00:49:44 Shame on them. TA: 00:49:46 It took me a little while to figure out where our beers sort of fit in the competitive landscape, JD: 00:49:52 The pantheon of beers. TA: 00:49:53 So once I figured that part out, we got on a roll pretty, quickly. JD: 00:49:57 That does seem to be a little bit of a challenge cause I'm a member of the Society of Barley Engineers when they talk about submitting for homebrew <competitions>. Sometimes there are quite intense discussions about where a particular beer, that somebody’s having everybody sample, what category that fits into. And you do then deal with judges’ taste buds. Which, you know, it's a constantly moving landscape. TA: 00:50:17 I’ve been a GABF judge since ‘99-ish. And that has afforded me an enormous amount of opportunities to watch the process, participate in it, and even potentially piss off brewers and people who maybe didn't, you know, like the way that it went. It's fascinating to watch the competition evolve at a table relative to the dialogue, the strength of the judges, the opinions of the judges. Even just the sheer age of the, the judging has come from, there were only this block of people that used to do it and now it's expanded and now the categories have morphed and they're different. And the, you know, we talk about it a lot because it's, it's interesting to see how difficult, first of all, there's so many more beers, but the sheer, the sheer perspective that people are operating under relative to, I've had these style beers or I've never been think about, okay, I'm 10 11 Awarded at the Great American Beer Festival. Great American Beer Festival. Transcribed by Judith Downie 25 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 supposed to judge a Kölsch-style beer, but I'm a judge and I've never been to Cologne and had the six beers from there that are the, that are the standards. Well, how do you judge that? Like that's, that's a, it's an interesting scenario because you're being asked to read this against what was written, how this is how a standard should taste. Yet. You've never been in situ and had that environmental condition. JD: 00:51:41 Right, with that terroir and all everything else, all those factors that work into it. TA: 00:51:45 100 percent. I do agree with you that there's, one of the things about entering competitively is that there's so many different places beers can fit and sometimes it's really environmentally like time and place. Sometimes the beer exudes more oak and sometimes it doesn’t, and it wants to be in an oak category, but it can't cause it has brett12. We did a sampling a couple months ago back in early July and I think we went through 20 different beers for GABF trying to get down to the five that we wanted to send. And in order to do that we had to kind of pick the beers. We'd, you know, we brought out all the beers that we thought were really well done and then we had to go say, well that would fit here, wouldn't fit here, but it probably fits best here, but we don't want to send that beer there because we already have another one that wants to go there. So, you don't wanna compete against yourself either? JD: 00:52:35 Now are you limited to five beers for competition? TA: 00:52:39 Of late? They've been in the four to five range. Okay. A few years ago, you could send up to eight and prior to that it was kind of unlimited. But when it went from eight to five it got a lot harder. JD: 00:52:48 Yeah. But it just seems like, I mean you can see what thousands of entries that seems like and yeah, TA: 00:52:56 I think there's over 8,000 beers that'll be judged. But we always say this, it's like if, if back when we were going to sending eight beers, I don't know if we make eight world-class beers every fall. Right? So how many are really well done and how many of them are like, you know, that far up the channel. I think we 12 Industry jargon for Brettanomyces, a fungi used to sour beer. Transcribed by Judith Downie 26 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 make eight great beers but are they going to sit at the table and really, really compete. But I think when you have eight versus four, your odds are better. But perhaps being in categories that some, some years are strong, and some years are weak, is, is where it kind of comes from. JD: 00:53:29 Yeah. But you're also trying to be selective. I'm sure there are people that “I'll send as many beers as I can to increase my odds of winning an award.” Because of course the GABF awards still mean a lot. TA: 00:53:41 Yeah. There was a year, I know this to be true, where at least one or two breweries that don't need to be, and they're not from San Diego, sent somewhere between 30 to 50 beers. And didn't win an award. And these are pretty good breweries. So, you know, you're talking about the shotgun approach. You hit the side of the barn. But it was pretty interesting to see that they didn't win. You know, the years of late where we haven't, we haven't managed to win an award. You know, we look up and we talked to the guys and we say, you know, look at the breweries that didn't win. Like, you know, these are, these are still some, you know, solid, solid producers and congratulations to the ones that did. But yeah, there's no guarantee anymore. I mean, winning one is a pretty dang good achievement. JD: 00:54:24 Yeah. Well then in some cases, like just recently, what happens to the beer while is being transported? It could completely knock a perfectly good beer that left here out of any consideration because what happens to it or it doesn't even get there. TA: 00:54:39 Yeah. So we've tried to mitigate that as best we can. Where the consolidation point and we have been for a long time that helps with refrigeration and, you know, just really making sure that the beer is better taken care of, competitive, you know, competitive judging or, you know, competitive brewing. I would say this is far different than it was 10, 15 years ago. JD: 00:55:00 I guess for good and for bad both. But back to your awards, is there any award that you have one that is the most meaningful to you? Not to discount the other awards. TA: 00:55:12 Sure, I think two really come to mind. The, we've been lucky to win a <GABF> Brewery of the Year award four different times. And I'm, I'm personally, I really want to get to five. I want to have that. I want to have that, that last one on the, you know, in Transcribed by Judith Downie 27 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 that, you know, if I, if they gave out rings, I want to have the handful. The last time we won was 2007, so it's been a long time. And we may never get that opportunity again. I think the one that I won last year, which was the Russell Schehrer Award for Innovation and Craft Brewing, that that's you know, that's a hall of fame landscape kind of thing. And it just speaks to the community involvement and the, you know, being, being a participant in this, you know, only 22 people have won it at that point. And I, I, yeah, the legacy award, you know, something like that. I mean, I, I still love, I love the GABF and World Beer <Cup> Awards, a couple of awards cause they're, you know, they're purely blind. They're your peers. They show your team that they're, you know, they're making the right decisions. But the Russell award was probably the one that was singular in the sense that that was, you know, personally with my name on it. Where it's almost every other award that we've had that we've been lucky enough to garner comes with somebody else, you know, participating in doing work in that regard. JD: 00:56:29 Yeah. Okay. Well, very good. So, we're just about at the end of all my questions, from your experience, is there anything in the way of advice or a lesson you've learned or anything else that you think either can't be said enough or you haven't ever had the opportunity to say? TA: 00:56: You know, I think that we were talking yesterday, it's kind of interesting. We were talking about how difficult this business has become and there's a lot of noise and chatter and 50 years from now when someone's looking at this, they'll say, wow it's not as easy as it used to be. And I don't know where the fall line's going to be. We're going to get to 10,000 breweries in this country. I don't doubt that that'll happen. And I don't know where, where the relevancy will be. I don't know what it will look like. I feel pretty strongly that in the time that I've been lucky enough to be in this business, a lot of what's made us successful has come from a very strong sense of this is the beer I want to produce. And nowadays there seems to be a lot of, you have to just do what the consumer is saying they want. TA: 00:57:38 And tons of breweries I think are kind of losing their way, respectful of an identity. And I don't know if the artist in me can, can sort of reconcile that for the long haul. I think there's this sense that if, if that's the way the industry is going, you know, is that what I signed up for? Part of me wants to see the Transcribed by Judith Downie 28 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 consumerism shift and I, I talk about this a lot, but it's kind of like when you throw the boomerang out, it comes back a little slower than it went out and maybe the boomerang is coming back. You know, that there's just too much ubiquity right now. But maybe not. Maybe with 10,000 brewers, you just, there is ubiquity and that's just part of the nature of it. But you know, I think the success that I've had, you know, in this business has been built on beers that, that, that have something that look and tastes like things that I've, you know, imagined and there's been a lot of success for that. But I don't know how you continue to do that when there's 10,000 imitators and people trying to, trying to find the same sort of, you know, sense of their worth. So for me, I think the biggest thing moving forward is just where, where do we all fit in? It's just dense stuff. JD: 00:58:49 Giving everybody a chance to attain their dream. But yeah, you know. TA: 00:58:53 Yeah. I think that we're going to see, I think in the next two years we're going to see a lot of dreams getting crushed because it's getting, it's getting even harder today than it was probably a year ago. But there might be a light at the end of the tunnel in the sense that, you know, there's been a lot of distributor consolidation. There's been a lot of breweries, what they say, you know, rightsizing or trying to figure this all out. But it's a business. It's gonna eat people alive, you know? And, and that's what businesses do, right? There's, there is this, there's, there's a success rate attributed to craft beer that's not as high. I mean, it's higher than most consumer goods, and there will probably be a little bit more reckoning that will come along with it because you just can't, you just can't all swim in the same ocean. It just doesn't work. And so we're going to find some sense of corrective correlations. I mean, we're going to find smaller, you know, people are going to be making less beer for the next few years and if you're actively making more beer, you're one of the very few people that's, that's winning in that, in that space. JD: 00:59:51 It does seem like we had a real bump up in numbers of breweries that opened in 2016-2017 which is being that this is 2019. We're looking at entering the fourth and fifth year of leases for a lot of the breweries. And I think that might be a time where people are going to have to sit down and assess. TA: 01:00:11 Sure. I mean, if you've got a five-year lease and you're about to come into that fourth year, you're in the fourth year and you're now triggering the, am I going to renew? Right. I haven't, I 29 2024-01-04 Transcribed by Judith Downie �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 haven't been taking a paycheck or I've been taking very little. And then at some point you're like, are we, is this a real thing? You know, I don't, I don't know. You know, people, people certainly I think come into it, you know, really, you know, eager and excited about it. And then little by little you're, you're grinding and there's a lot of grinding going on right now, which is okay, but you know, there's, but grinding isn't fun. JD: 01:00:46 No. And when people come into it with a passion, which is a term you used earlier, passion cannot sustain you forever, unfortunately. I mean, it's what maybe gets you up the next morning, but at some point it's not paying the bills and you have managed to raise a family, you know, other people, you know, that they've got investors that may or may not understand the actual brewing industry and cause and effect and impacts. And, you know, yeah, it's going to be real interesting to see what happens. TA: 01:01:18 Yeah. I've been pretty lucky. My partnership here hasn't had an unrealistic expectation of financial return. And, and you know, so, you know, we, we opened our doors, we borrowed some money, we repaid the money, and then we've basically reinvested all of that money into the company when we needed to. So we are not sitting here saying okay, you're, you know, you were relying on us for a dividend. And you know, that doesn't, it doesn't work like that. But the, the business of beer is very difficult. And you know, you, you talked about that word passion. We, when we opened our doors, I published this list of the 10 commandments of our brewery and one of the 10 commandments was that you, you know, passion isn't something you can buy at the corner store. And I meant that with a sense of like, if you come into this, you know, you can't just throw that term around. TA: 01:02:06 Like you've got to live it and breathe it. And I think that that kind of what you were speaking to earlier is, is, has always been like, I think there's a lot of people that will say, I am very passionate about what I do. And I have been, and that's, you know, over the 20 plus years I've been doing this. That's that, that is a word that I would associate with, with getting out of bed every day. And it's been very, it's been very conducive to being successful. That being said, you don't have to be overly passionate, but you have to be, you still have to be passionate about getting out of bed every day, even when you're struggling, even when you're not killing it. And I can guarantee you right now, there's a lot of people when they're getting out of bed who used to kill it and were, you know, who thought Transcribed by Judith Downie 30 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 they were going to kill it and are saying to themselves, man, this is, this is real. Like, and you know, how do you, how do you put your game face on and, and, and really keep, keep grinding and to tackle the, you know, look, we want to get to the other side. JD: 01:02:54 Yeah. Yeah. And you don't want to be a long face when your consumers come in because they're going to say, Hey, I came in here for a beer and a good time. TA: 01:03:02 I am here. I am here for a good time. Right. Any happy people? JD: 01:03:06 Oh dear. Oh dear. Something that just came to me, which is not on the list of questions, but we are sitting in the space that Stone originated at. And you had just mentioned that you've expanded. Talk a little bit about the physical plant. What was it like when you moved in as Lost Abbey? What did you have to do to it and how many times have you expanded? TA: 01:03:34 All right. So, when we took over in January of 2006 and Stone moved out to the facility in Escondido, they controlled at that point about 30,000 square feet of I think the building is 85,000 square feet. So, they had about a third of it. And when they moved out, we collapsed the entire building back down to their original suite, suite 104, and that suite is 7,500 square feet. So, we started with a 30-barrel brewhouse in 19, I'm sorry, in 2006. And we had 30, 7,500 square feet, including the tasting room, cold box, and our barrel warehouse. In 2009, I believe we moved across the parking lot and took over another 10,000 square feet and moved the cold box, all the barrels and our distribution. So, for awhile we had that space. We were up to about 17,000 square feet. 2012 or so we took over this suite that we're sitting in here, which was another 7,500 square feet. TA: 01:04:35 So that allowed us to build our packaging hall, this office, the lab, things like that. We rolled for the next few years, for the next five years. We had that 27,000 square feet of space. And then we added we added a second, third, fourth warehouse across the parking lot. And that took us to almost 40,000 square feet. And then last January we moved out of that distribution warehouse into another building here, which is now connected from the front of the street to the back. Behind us. We control 40,000 square feet under one roof line for the first time. And we moved out of the facility across the parking lot, all of our barrels and everything. So we now are under one building, one roof line. We can't drive from the packaging hall to the rest of the building. But every other building we can drive forklifts through. Transcribed by Judith Downie 31 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 TA: 01:05:30 And that never happened. Two years ago, we owned four <forklifts> ‘cause we had four different buildings. JD: 1:05:37 Now does Port distribute all the beers here in San Marcos? TA: 1:05:43 Everything comes out of this facility. We are doing a batch or two a year out of the Pizza Port facility when we need to, but we don't, it's this, this facility can handle a lot more beer than we're currently making. So most, most everything that has the word Port Brewing, Lost Abbey, or Hop Concept on it has come out of San Marcos. It's only been this year that we've brewed two or three batches of beer down the street at Pizza Port. And most of that was for efficiency to do big runs of things that we could, we did a giant Hop Freshener, Hop Concept release at Costco and needed to have beer all at the same time. JD: 01:06:15 So are you, in Costcos outside of California as well? TA: 01:06:20 No, and that has been something we haven't really tackled or looked at. JD: 01:06:23 Like it would be just an overwhelming amount of production yet I think... TA: 01:06:28 Costco's pretty, pretty keen on a lot of local these days, at least for beer. So, I don't know how relevant we would, you know, we might be able to get into some in Arizona, maybe in Washington and Northern California, but you know, there's a ton of breweries in each of those locations. Tapping the same buyer on the shoulder saying, can I get, can I get in here? And, and the buyers probably got enough options that they don't even need something from out of here. And frankly, the cost associated with getting it to them would almost make it prohibitive in terms of trying to put it on the shelf at their right price point. JD: 01:06:59 Yeah. Have you ever had to turn down any kind of requests because you just knew that trying to fill that big an order was going to just break you? TA: 01:07:09 No, we've, we've been pretty lucky in the sense that when we do get we just came off of couple of pretty good-sized Costco orders and they were about 40 pallets worth of beer. But the brewery can handle that without being too burdened in the sense. I mean, it's certainly a lot of attention on one thing but we're not overly stretched at our capacity right now. So, when those things pop up, we certainly snap at them and want, you Transcribed by Judith Downie 32 2024-01-04 �TOMME ARTHUR TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-08-08 know we wanna make sure we execute on it. If we were making a lot more beer, we probably would have, we would struggle with that a little more. But when you get an order for 40 pallets of beer, you figure it out, you know, you really do. JD: 01:07:49 When we walked back here, we passed one of your employees building a bike. What other sorts of things do you do with the employees or for the employees to support maybe their selfeducation, other interests that they have, things like that. TA: 01:08:05 We've definitely put it on our radar this year. We've lost a lot of employees in the last two years. I think we've turned over 20 employees and we only have about 50 total. So, we've put an emphasis on that level of communication, you know, what can we do to assist you in this endeavor? It's not something that we've programmed in the past or been terribly good at. That being said, we haven't, we have really seen that there are some simple opportunities to do things like that and Tim's running his own small bike shop and it's just a, you know, it's a pocket, pocketed space here at the brewery. You know, we've announced that if there's other brewer or other brewery employees from the tasting room all the way up that have an idea, we would love to hear about it. We don't make a dime on it. There's no, there's no real emphasis towards, you know, trying to co-partner on things. TA: 01:08:56 It's just we, we want to, we want to foster the opportunities if it makes sense. And Tim's the pilot sort of program right now with the bike, the little bike shop that he's running and it gets interesting, I hope. I hope it sparks other employees to say, okay, cool, I've wanted to do this, that or the other and it looks like I could and come to us and say, ‘Oh, could you carve out this space again?’ We are, we are under more, more efficient space right now and we do have a little bit of room. So, I hope that, I hope somebody else says, okay, I want to do this and it, and it fits the needs and the use and isn't a big deal. It'd be great because it means that we can, we can continue to lift what they want to be a part of and retain them at some time. JD: 01:09:35 Yeah. Very good. It was fun. Oh, okay. Well, I think that pretty much has run through my list plus of questions for you about your career, your history, and what's going on with Lost Abbey/Port Brewing. And I want to thank you for that. And I'm going to go ahead and turn this off. Transcribed by Judith Downie 33 2024-01-04 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Arthur, Tomme. Interview transcript. August 8th, 2019. Description An account of the resource Tomme Arthur has been involved in several San Diego breweries, most notably as founder and managing owner of Lost Abbey Brewing located in San Marcos, CA. His first professional brewing position was at the short-lived Cervecería La Cruda in San Diego, California. Arthur moved to Pizza Port Brewing in Solana Beach, California as an assistant brewer. After becoming Director of Brewing Operations for the increasing number of locations, he led the chain in garnering numerous beer awards. Arthur opened Lost Abbey Brewing in 2006 to focus on his interest in Belgian-style beers. In late 2023, Arthur separated Lost Abbey from Port Brewing operations in a ‘right-sizing’ plan in response to beer industry trends. Port Brewing retained the Hop Concept, Tiny Bubbles, and Kharisma brands in their portfolio and took over the San Marcos production space and closed the tasting room. Lost Abbey entered an alternating proprietorship agreement with Mother Earth Brewing to share their production space in nearby Vista, CA. In his 2019 interview, Arthur discusses his introduction to craft beer and home brewing; entry into the profession and work at various breweries beginning in the 1990s; founding Lost Abbey Brewing and other brewery ventures; mentoring individuals in the industry; and awards. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tomme Arthur Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Ernest Cisneros Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-08-08 Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Lost Abbey Brewing (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ArthurTomme_DownieJudith_2019-08-08_transcript Brewchive(r) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/359f5ef004ef9f5cb67d3fe184e762f6.pdf 7724afdb765683fbb93150f5ec6d7e48 PDF Text Text GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley, and today I'm interviewing Gezai Berhane. This is for the California State University San Marcos, Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. Today is March 29th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Gezai, thank you for interviewing with me today. I'll start off with a- with some questions. To start off, could you tell us a bit about your background and what led you to become a part of the CSUSM (California State University San Marcos) community? Gezai Berhane: Well, that's a good question, and thanks for this opportunity. My background is, uh, I was born and raised in Eritrea, East Africa. I came to the United States as a refugee in 1983, so I've been here for a long time. But, um, back home when I was back home in Africa, in East Africa, I did not have an opportunity to finish high school. So, my goal, my aspiration was to at least finish high school. So, once I got the opportunity to go to school here, I tried to finish high school, but I was adult, so they say, “You can't even be here in the high school.” So, they kicked me out, but they told me, I can finish high school, uh, through something called the GED (General Educational Development Test)? Something like that. And so, I did that. And then, um, I moved to San Marcos in (19)85, where California was cheaper than where I initially landed in the United States, which was South Dakota. A big difference. And so, I took advantage of the opportunity at-- enrolling at Palomar College. Uh, I did two years at Palomar College. Then I got interested more and more in school. By the time I finished Palomar College, Cal State San Marcos was coming. It was a great opportunity and I couldn't resist that. I had plans to go beyond the, two-years degree because I missed four years of high school. So at least four years of high school, equivalent to me was continuously going to a four-year college. And so San Marcos came in, so I became one of the first Cal State San Marcos students in 1990. That brought a lot of opportunity actually for me as a new university, uh, starting from scratch. For me not having any other experience coming from another country and not knowing a whole lot about college, I was involving myself at Cal State San Marcos because every time they need somebody, volunteer, student assistance, do this and that. I was just trying to be as involved as I can, just, and as a result of that, after graduating 1992, among the first 1992 graduates, I was, then I got hired to, as a student, I was involved with student organizations, with Associated Students (Incorporated, i.e. student governance) and staff. So, my involvement led to a permanent position here on campus. And that first job and things like that was in the Dean of Students Office. And then by 1993, in the beginning, we were assigned a department to start a new department called Student Activities and Alumni Services. That is the root cause of the Student Life and Leadership, the Student and Residential Life (campus departments). I've been part of that since, again, I can say even though as a student, I started in 1990, I was also an employee or student assistant with the campus. So I have seen the growth of the campus from day one as a result of that --Cross-Cultural Center, I know we'll get back to it, but that is as a result of growing departments and services to a growing population. So that's what (it) looks like a little bit on my background about who I am, as it relates to Cal State San Marcos. Stanley: And you were saying you were part of the first graduate, one of the first graduating classes of CSUSM. Could you maybe describe what the university was like in its early days? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: Well, I don't know if you, if you wanna call it the university. We were taking all our classes at the, well, we used to, still refer to it, Cal State Jerome's. It was office buildings by, near the Jerome’s (furniture store) building. But luckily, SDSU (San Diego State University) had an extended classes in those areas. So, Cal Sate San Marcos didn't start it from the beginning. So there was some kind of structure as far as classrooms and things like that at Cal State Jerome's. So, all of my two years’ classes were taken there. But we graduated from the, uh, Craven Circle. We had our first graduation right there. We used the stairs, um, as a, as chairs for the guests, but we had chairs for the graduates, I was one of those. It was (a) very tight-knit community. We knew each other, the students knew each other. The faculty, staff, administrators knew each other by name, by everything, and all kinds of activities, including playing soccer with some faculty members at the Bradley Park. I mean, all kinds of stuff. Like, you know, if you were with the Dean of students, uh, you just called them by name. you as President Stacy, you were President Stacy, he’s Bill Stacy's office. Right. Because everything was just community. We knew each other. It was a community. The faculty, on the other hand, had a task to make sure that they're building a compatible, very, viable university as a new university. So there was some challenge- they tried to challenge us, the students, but we were all re-entry, returners, transfers, no freshmen at the time. So, we met the challenge and exceeded the challenge. Within one year, we started Associated Students (student governance). Okay? We, I mean, a lot of things, because we were all mature returners and all of that. We met all the challenges and pa- and way beyond. So as a student, I just felt like I was so grateful for all of that opportunity. And so, my experience as a student here was great. Stanley: That's great. I love that all that does, the community and faculty knowing each other, stuff like that. Anyway, moving on to the Cross-Cultural Center. Could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Berhane: Okay. So this was, um, like, you know 10 years or later that the Cross-Cultural Center was implemented and, and whatnot. Uh, so the department, that the Cross-Cultural Center was under was named Student and Residential Life. We became Student and Residential Life. Just (to) give you a little bit of background, why residential life and student activities? Um, in the early, 2000s, the, the Division of Student Affairs, had a reorganization of certain departments on campus. Our department, the student, the Center for Student Involvement, which dealt with student organization, recognition leadership programs, and overseeing ASI (Associated Students Incorporated), ASI elections- was just called Center for Student Involvement. It initially was Student Activities and Alumni Services. Alumni Services split when it became, when it remained Student Activities only, we called it Center for Student Involvement, CSI. That then, like I say, as a result of the division's effort to try to reorganize the division in different departments, they brought the Residential Life and the Student Activities together. Once they brought us together, we decided to find a new name for these two departments coming together. So eventually we came up with Student and Residential Life, SRL. And so, while we were functioning on as a, an SRL, Cross-Cultural Center was added again, I mean, to that department. So we used to call it “C3.” We used to call it Multicultural Programs. I mean, C3 was the most popular name for Cross-Cultural Center. C3. And because the department, the SRL and the office that was assigned for Cross-Cultural Center were together, you just step outside, pass the bathroom, you go to the Cross-Cultural Center. It was just, again, even though we knew we were all part of one department overall, SRL. But having that we have Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 to step outside and go and sit there and they started it with couches, not just chairs. It was just comfortable to go there and engage with the students who were there. Stanley: Do you, uh, remember any sort of activities or programs that the early Cross-Cultural program were, making happen? Berhane: I don't recall all the different, I know there is a, a big event that is, I don't know what it's called now that you do every year, but the, it was more for me, my memory in the fourth floor on Craven Hall (Administrative Building), on the fourth floor. Uh, when we were there initially it was more, okay, here is a program, a space for students to come and engage with each other and sit and relax and have a place to go to. Uh, but it has been a long time. So, I can't say I remember doing this and that with them. But I know there is something as a result of that, whatever started earlier, now there is an annual program and event that Cross-Cultural Center (inaudible). Stanley: So, um, in what ways would you say the Cross-Cultural Center has impacted CSUSM? Berhane: Well, I don't know if it is an impact to CSUSM, but I know Cal State San Marcos from the beginning has been saying diversity, the value of diversity has always been on the mission statement from day one. So the university to show that they are, you know, that being the first center for Multicultural Programs, you know, this is way before there was Black Student Center, Latino Center (Latin@/x Center), Native American Center (California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center), and all of that. To say, let's start with something to at least say, call it a center for cross-cultural, you know, multicultural programs. To me, it was an indication, even though it was after many, many years of hearing the word diversity as part of our mission, serving a diverse community, all of that, to start with something like that, I think it was, a great initiative, it was. And look what happened after that. Okay, so there's Multicultural Programs. What do we do? What is next? What is next? And I think it's a great start. It helped the university start with something successful. Completion of that (Cross-Cultural Center) led to different centers, as you can see where we are right now. I think that's how I look at it, because like I say, I've been hearing the word diverse community, diversity, divers(ity), you know, our mission is to serve our population, diverse population and all of that. So I think it was a good start. So I would say it was a good experience for the university to start with something like that, as opposed to specifically, you know, as one of the different centers that we have right now. Stanley: Yeah. And you say you keep hearing the word diversity, but, would you say that the CrossCultural Center actually did have an impact on creating a more inclusive campus on, at CSUSM? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 3 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: Well, like everything else, you know, if something’s to... to have impact or something’s to be popular or to be something, it has to be known to more people. Even though, with us through orientations, or everything else, as a campus, again it was more of a, campus with no housing oncampus, everybody was more, you live somewhere else, you come to classes and you will leave. So in the beginning, to be honest, there was not a whole lot of people using it (The Cross-Cultural Center). Uh, only a small group of people would use it. So if you’re there more often, you bring your friends. If I’m there more often, I’ll bring maybe more of my friends. But to the campus as a whole, uh, it was symbolic to have that, but I'm not sure to what, how much that impacted more student population at, you know, at that time. Stanley: Um-hmm. What is the, what's a favorite memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center, um, and how did it maybe affect you personally or professionally? Berhane: Um, I think I mentioned this before, when we talked (before the interview). It's more, um, you know, I work in the office. I’m with the students a lot. You know, many times I'm doing leadership programs, meeting with other students or with other staff members and things like that. So, to me, the Cross-Cultural Center was a place to go and do nothing but just relax. Because it was couches in there and then you're not there seriously to engage in a very, you know, other than just being there to have fun with people and just chat how students are doing. And so to me, it was a place to go, and whether it's through the Associate Directors that are working there, or whether it's through the students who are sitting there, it was a place where you can be free to chat with people and not really be doing work at that time. Uh, so that was how I looked at the center, in my memories, like saying, the couches are always in my head. (laughs). Stanley: Um, looks like we have enough time for these questions. Um, since the Cross-Cultural Center has a lot to do with diversity, inclusiveness, and like being more (inaudible), I noticed when I was researching you that you've had a lot of trouble with people knowing where Eritrea is, and you're telling people, I do remember reading a newspaper article from, I think it was 1990, where you say, “Where is Eritrea? People keep asking me,” and I just wanted to say, do you still feel frustration, towards those who do not know where Eritrea is on the map? And do you still find yourself explaining where it is on a regular basis? Berhane: Well, in the beginning, before I knew how much students actually had a chance to learn about history or geography, it was, “Why don't they know,” you know? “They go to school.” We, when we were in elementary school, we knew all the different countries in the world and who the president was, what the capital city is, and then in the case of African countries when they became independent and things like that. Like it’s initiated in, I mean, like I said earlier, Eritrea when I left was at war for independence. So but, it was not covered in the mainstream media as a country fighting for independence. So when I came here, at least I had expected some people to know, because we had Americans stationed in Eritrea, you know, in the fifties, sixties, seventies. So some people should know Transcribed by Aaron Williams 4 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 where Eritrea is. So, for me to say it is near Sudan, it’s by the Red Sea, it’s near Ethiopia. And so in the beginning I was seriously educating people, but later on it became like, funny to me. It is like, “Where is Eritrea?” Well, the first question always is, “What's your name?” “I'm Gezai.” “Where are you from?” “I'm from Eritrea.” “Where is that?” (Stanley laughs) And then it became like, okay, I'm not gonna spend a whole lot of time educating you because you have no clue. So I'll say it's, uh, a little farther than, uh, L.A. just by Santa Barbara. Oh, okay. I haven't heard of that. (laughs) No, you wouldn't have heard of that, but I'm sure you heard of Santa Barbara. So the easiest answer for me is, yeah, just go look at it, (laughs), and there was no Google where, you know, we got the search and things like that. So it became funny afterwards because then it's like, it's just a waste of time too. And then if you say, I'm from Africa. Oh, but I've never heard of Eritrea. Well, that's too bad you never heard of Eritrea but that's where I came from. So , I think I transitioned from taking it seriously to maybe blaming a little bit more the educational system that we are not educating people even, you know, at the bachelor's level in the history class or geography. There was a, um, a map that was given, and we have countries identified here so it says, identify where these countries are, you know, on the map. People don't even know the United States, the States where they're supposed to be located! So then I realized, you know, it's not their fault. They just didn't have enough education about different countries, let alone, I mean about their country let alone about other people's countries. So I don't blame people. I don't get frustrated anymore. I'm like, “This is funny.” Depending on how I am interacting with the person, I can either say I'm in Africa or I can just say I'm near Santa Barbara, and that will take care of the business (both laugh). Stanley: Well, love that. It's (inaudible), just in one ear, out the other. Oh, that's cool- Berhane: That's good. Yeah. Stanley: Um, going back to the Cross-Cultural Center, you said that you would spend a lot of time just having fun in there. Could you recall a time with a specific person or a memory inside the Cross-Cultural Center that you remember fondly? Berhane: I think it was more with the second associate director or the first associate directors, and not necessarily with the students, because the names of the students, again, twenty years later, I'm getting too old to remember all of that, even though I can see their faces. It's harder to recall their names right now. But I think it's more the interaction with, um, unscheduled interaction with whether it’s with the associate director, or students who are regular. We used to call it regular students, but to be specifically telling you about individual students, it would be very hard for me. And I'll be lying to you and I don't wanna do that. Stanley: Okay. Well, uh, in what ways, uh, if any, did your involvement with the Cross Culture Center help you expand or develop as a person? And how has that impacted your career or personal life? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: I mean, (laughs), as I said, as an involved person on campus, my professional and personal life as it grows, that I have gained as being part of this campus, it's enormous. It's countless, to tell you the truth, I grew up here. So Cal State San Marcos is home for me. I don't think there's a lot of other people who have started here and remained here for thirty years. Okay? I just retired in 2020-- at the end of 2021, which is thirty years later, since the university started. So the impact that grows personal and professional for me, I can't specifically try to address as a Cross-Cultural Center is, but I think my interaction with people who work at the Cross-Cultural Center, students who came to the Cross-Cultural Center, and being part of student activities. The leadership programs that this department has been planning and going, you know, whether it's going there, whether it is supporting the, uh, initial paperwork and whatnot, working with that group in general is part of my personal and professional growth. So I can't really say specifically and directly this and that. For me, it's more a, uh, the total sum of my overall experience, not just Cross-Cultural Center. Student Activities, Associated Students, the Dean of Students, the whole entire division. And in, and faculty too, as you indicated earlier. You know, if I have interactions with faculty, because we had to work with faculty members because they were supposed to be the advisor of student activity, I mean, student organization advisors, we had to work with faculty as well in doing some kind of orientation about their role and leadership programs, and how to help the student leaders and stuff. So for me, my primary function was in student activities, working with student leaders, student clubs, and organizations. So, the Cross-Cultural Center is, has been, was part of, part and parcel of Student Activities, but my main function wasn't directly that. So. But like I say, as within one department, we have orientation programs, for example. We had Greek Life, we had (to) oversee ASI (Associated Students, Inc.). All of those combined are the result of who I am, as opposed to try to, you know, narrowly say, yeah, this is how, and what the Cross-Cultural Center has left me as an impact. I don't wanna commit to that. Stanley: Let's go broader then. Berhane: Okay Stanley: Um, as a student activities director, were there any activities that you organized that you were particularly connected to or the, uh, moment on campus where you felt that you were promoting inclusiveness and diversity? Berhane: Well, I mean, a lot of the programs that we used to do from Student Activities is more... Okay, so if I notice that certain student groups that are not active, that are not really engaged, and what we used to do is go into orientations from the beginning to say, You gotta remain active on campus. This is, look at me, I never dreamed of working on campus or the university, ever whatsoever. You go to school, to college and you graduate, and you go look for a job somewhere else, but I'm here. So, students, you need to get engaged, you need to get involved. So, me encouraging all the new students that were coming in, or if they were here, and if I get to interact, I like to walk around and see if people are out there who would like to say hello, if they're not engaged, if they're not the student organizations. And Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 within student organizations, if they're not taking leadership roles and things like that, I encourage people at whatever level they are. And so that's, you know, for me, I was fond of encouraging students to take leadership roles, to stay engaged, to work on campus, even at least as a student activity, and I mean as student assistants. And so for me it's more the day-to-day interactions with students, not just in generally, I mean. So, every year we know student organizations have to renew their contract every year. We have to do some leadership program trainings every year. And that's where you meet all the student leaders, and that's how you continue to engage with them and continue to advise them and continue to help them grow. And so for me, it's more, it's really hard to say yes, thirty years of experience is like to narrow it into one event or into one program. I've been part of student, I mean, ASI for example, Associated Students, (Inc.), we started with paper ballots, you know, like check-in the paper ballots. Then we moved to scantrons where you can do scantron, you (Stanley) probably don't remember. And then we had to go move up to online voting and things like that. So, you have to go through so much growth. And so, when you’re part of a lot of new engagements, new initiatives, it’s like you forget it because once you move to the next level, you just forget about that and now you're at next level. So for me, uh, like I say, it's thirty years of engaging with the students, faculty and staff, with administrators. It was a lot of the, a lot of the things that we see right now, whether it is programs through Cross-Cultural Center, or through what used to be SLL, Student Live and Leadership, now it's SLIC (both laugh), Student Leadership and Involvement (Center), something like that. SLIC, they just changed it. Um, a lot of the programs, a lot of orientation. I also worked with housing. So, housing was another area where, where you are engaged with students coming in with family, with their parents, you were engaged and things like that. And so, for me, it's just a, I was not like static in one department or in one function doing just one specific thing. I have been engaged within a lot of different things on campus. So that to me is, it makes it harder for me. It's like, as a result of me doing what specific area, this is where I am, or this is where I was, this is where I got. Is it just so much that I can say I've been a part of? And as a result, I grew up with it (laughs) and I even got retired, bro. (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. You say, that you really don't know, like what, I couldn't really go into specifics. Um, could I ask you to tell me just, just any story that you might have, of helping a student or being involved in the, on campus or anything like that? Berhane: Um, so for example, on Orientation Team. Stanley: Mm-hmm. Berhane: Orientation Team is, there's a training every year. We go camping. You go camping to Ramona or to Alpine (California) or things like that. My most memorable memories with the students is when you are going to those kinds of three, four-day trainings and camping and you are doing all kinds of crazy things in there. And so for me, my most memorable uh, fun memories are related to the orientation team going places and being trained. Things on campus, we've done so much. But when you get outta here and do other activities off campus, those were memorable. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Stanley: Um, let's see here. Um, could you tell me about your involvement with Greek Life? Berhan: (laughs) Greek Life? Hmm. So when we initially started the department Student Activities in 1993, Greek life was not recognized as Greek Life. Greek life was more, you can initiate, but we are not gonna recognize you as a Greek Life organization because first of all, you have to go and communicate with the National Greek (Life) Association (National Panhellenic Conference). The campus was not a grown-up campus. And so my engagement with Greek life was more before they became Greek Life, before they became recognized, um, Greek organizations. It was more you give, they give them (pseudonyms) and we know where they're heading, but they recognized as student organizations where it's not supposed to discriminate membership based on gender and whatnot. Because as you know, Greek organizations are based on gender, kind of like the, sororities, fraternities and things like that. So their names were not as Greek names. It was more a pseudo other names. We know where they're heading, that's where they're trying and planning. But my, so in the early days when I was part of, you know, when they were part of that student organization, they were just student organizations. That's my experience with them. Once we recognized them, we started recognizing them, then the process of working with them moved to a new Greek Life advisor. And I remained with the rest of the other student organizations. So Greek Life before they became Greek Life, yes, I know who they were. I worked with them as their advisor. But once we have started to recognize them fully, then a Greek Life advisor has to come. A Greek Life advisor was hired. That's how we kind of-- we are in the same department, but me doing student organizations, these other person, Greek life leadership programs, all of us. And then orientation, and then Cross-Cultural Center, you know, all coming from within this department. Stanley: Um, you mentioned that, uh, they had to use pseudonyms instead of real Greek names. I was wondering if you could remember any of the names. Berhane: I can't. I can't. I'm sorry. I mean, we have to go back to the, the good old days. Um, we had, you know, documents. I don't have any of the documents, but if you wanna go search what the earlier, earlier student organizations... You kind of, you can find it in the (19)93, 94, 95 years, what student organizations were. I think some of that list might be still in student activities or SLIC or ASI might have that list as well. But it was, like I say, it is very hard for me to remember all of those. But it was three or four different student organizations. Stanley: Well, thank you for the reference at least. Um, you talked about, about how you were involved with student residential life, um, in the same vein as being working earlier in CSUSM. How was residential, residential life in CSUSM earlier on? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 8 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane : So before the, uh, UVA (University Village Apartments), the university village was built, the campus had, leased apartments in what we call it, uh, the islands apartments. The Islands Apartments. Out of many of the apartments, the university leased several buildings and rooms. So we used to house students. And so even though I was working still in Student Activities, the Director of Student Activities was also overseeing the, uh, of campus housing. We called it the off-campus housing initiative. And so I was, I happened to be the other person also to help with that. So it was, again, off campus, the Islands Apartments. It's off of Wood, you know, in San Marcos, if you are familiar with San Marcos, uh, Twin Oaks (Road) going east, there is the golf course. Right across the golf course. There's Woodward. Woodward is a street. So I think they changed the name, but it used to be called the Islands Apartment. And so even though we were not, nobody was resident in there from us, the staff members, we were there to support students. It was, I was part of that. And that's pretty much so. And then once we build the UVA, the University Village, then everybody new has to take over. Uh, even though to this day, the Dean of Students where I worked overseas housing, all housing. So the directors of the on-campus housing, I think they also reported to the Dean of Students. And so, me remaining in, within the Dean of Students, under the Dean of Students kind of gave me an opportunity to really engage in work or move in, move out and things like that. But my experience with housing started with off-campus housing, and I continued to also do a list of off-campus housing. Um, so it still is in existence, I think. Stanley: Sorry, I keep, I keep asking you, but, uh, do you have any sort of (Berhane laughs) say sort of story or memorable moment in those residential, like when you were helping people move in or move out or stuff like that? Berhane: Yeah, it's just, so maybe a fun memories is where, you know, I live very close to them. And so if I take my kids with me and have my kids in there and, uh, see where, you know, this is for students, college students, I think for me it's more like my whole family was involved in things like that wherever I go, whether it's an event here. But fun memories with off campus housing, I mean, there was a lot of stuff people throw away and things like that. It’s like, you know, there's a lot. And for me, with my background from Africa. Like, there's a lot of people who could use all of those things. Things that are being thrown away. And it just-- things that I can think as like memories, okay, they're going throw the mattress to the trash, I mean, throwing it, oh wow, (laughs), somebody could have used that one. Uh, things like that. But I mean, in engaging specifically with individual students to say, I know so and so, so and so, is not there yet. It's not there anymore. (laughs) It's not there. Like the fact that I can remember the Islands Apartment because it was the initial apartments. We had students who lived there, you know, the residents of, uh, you know, a subleased apartment, but we were administering it and things like that. I think those things, I can see the apartments and the people, some people, but not a, uh, not a whole lot of memory of individuals. Stanley: Um, how, how has seeing CSUSM grow over the years impacted you, and your life around the CSUSM community? Berhane: Ahh. You know, I indicated earlier, I came to San Marcos when San Marcos was really a, uh, a mobile home community, a retirement community. When there was no stop signs or four, you know, four-way stops. It was just, you go from one place to another with no stop and five minutes was enough Transcribed by Aaron Williams 9 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 to get you from where you are to where you need to go, where you want to go. The fact that for thirty some years right now, I've seen the growth of San Marcos in general as a community, to where we are right now. It's very hard for me to believe, to tell you the truth. It's just very hard for me to believe. So, the impact is from this small community, retirement community, a neat community to the kind of growth that you see-- even when we moved here (from CSU Jerome’s campus) in 1992, we only had, what, four buildings? This building (Kellogg Library), Commons, Academical Hall, Science Hall. That was it. That was it. It was just fine. It was nice. Now to see where we are, even though in, you know, in (inaudible) there was, uh, something called, “in twenty-five years Cal State San Marcos is supposed to have grown to have up to 25,000 students.” Well, for different reasons that didn't happen. Economy and whatnot and whatnot. But for me, I like the fact that it has grown. So my kids can go to the schools where they went to. Richland (Elementary School), Woodland (Park Middle School), Mission Hills (High School). But those things, well Mission (High School) was not there. I mean, all the growth for me to be able, instead of going (to) San Diego State to be able to finish in San Marcos, I had benefited a lot to be part of it. I mean, extra lucky to be working in here instead of San Diego or moving to other kinds of states or other cities. San Marcos in general, as a community, as a university, gave me life. Life. Do you know, life? Life. It gave me life. So for me, it's beyond, I'm beyond grateful for the impact that Cal State San Marcos. The fact that Cal State San Marcos, when it came time, the place, where everything, I raised three kids in San Marcos who all three of 'em went to like, oh, I told you Richland, Woodland, and then went to college. None of them came here (CSUSM) ‘cause Daddy works here (laughs). So they had to go to different states. But, um, but they knew where, what my expectations of them, they knew they were part of, I was part of this. And they knew they were not just going to finish high school and not go to college. So they all did at least their four, the four-year degree. So for me, it is life. My experience, the people that I come to know here at the university, the faculty, staff, students, it gave me life. I'm telling you, I don't know where I would've been if it wasn’t for Cal State San Marcos. And the whole general San Marcos, the whole area. So I'm very, very grateful. Stanley: That's, that's incredible. Um, yeah, it's just, it's almost like a, it's become like a campus town at this point now. Berhane: Oh my God. Oh my gosh. I mean, when I was a student, there was no parking fees or anything (laughs). Now I have (to) pay, like an hour. You pay my job, just leave me (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. There's a train that runs along now. Berhane: That's a different story (laughs). That's a different story, man. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Stanley: Getting back, uh, as we're winding down, um, I know that you had, you were involved with the Black Student Union and Black Student Center. How would would you say that pro, those programs and that, what's the word, uh, correlates or stacks up against the Cross-Cultural Center? I'd say, so. Berhane: Um, I think what, you know, during time, with time you have to identify all the different things that you need, who needs what. And so, I don't know, I don't wanna compare or compete or anything as, you know, not just a Black Student Center, not just a Latino Center, not just a Women's Center or a Native American Center. It's more they all have their own individual roles to play in the, in, in, you know, in this community. So, Black Student Center was a necessary department, was a necessary service, a necessary center to have on campus. If we are going to have specific groups feeling welcomed and that they have a space on campus. With Multicultural Programs its good, when multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-gender, or whatever you call it, in name. It-- but they're able to come and use that as a center for that. But I think people feel comfortable where they feel they belong to. Just like the student organizations. When I was a student, when I see a sociology club, accounting club, Latino club, well, I wanted to have the Black Student Club. So I was part of a Black student club. Uh, we were calling it African American or African Student Organization, African, all kinds of stuff, trying to say we have something that belongs to us. So for me, it's not like in comparison to other centers, it was necessary to have a center for the Black students to feel comfortable enough to go there. And so for us, again, as advocates for services to different interests of different student groups, to have that implemented and to see that while I was a student, I while I was an employee here, was a great thing. I was always involved like I say from day one, whether since starting a student organization, once I became a staff (employee designation), we have the Black Faculty and Staff Association. I've been part of that (inaudible) since day one. When we graduated in 1992, I became one of the board members with the Alumni Association, starting Alumni Association I can say I've been part of a lot of starting things because I think the need, the need is there and if I'm able to help on engage(ment), why not? So I as, as someone who was active as a student, once I graduated, I was also pulled to help start the Alumni Association. And so I think, you know, in trying to answer your question, it's not really in competition or one over the other or against the other. It's more providing services to the different populations, different groups with different interests that we have on campus. Stanley: Uh, yeah, perhaps I worded that a little wrong. You touched on this before, but what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center play as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces like you named before? Berhane: I think it requires an understanding of what its mission is, an understanding. So if I'm coming as a student, new student coming to campus, I'm a Black student. I'm not going to ask for multicultural programs where, you know, “Where is a multicultural program?” I'm gonna ask, where is a Black Student Center? If I'm going to join a student organization, I'm either going to ask for something related to my major or something related to my identity. And so, multicultural, Cross-Cultural Center, the definition of it needs to be clear to people from day one at orientation. Okay? And so, yes, it does have a mission. Yes, it does have a purpose to be here on campus to serve, but is it serving the group of people who don't have a center already? Or is it bringing all the centers together? And so, uh, reexamination of the whole purpose of Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center might be necessary at some point to say, “Who am I serving?” Okay? Because you have Latino Center here, Women's Center, gender, you know, gender and Black Student Center, there may be a need to really qualify, “Why should I go there?” Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Even though I know I'm familiar with it. But if I am a newcomer, what am I gonna look for? It does serve a population that doesn't, that doesn't fit any of the other ones (other centers). But what extent do they understand it? To what extent are they familiar and aware of this service and this center? Stanley: I guess the same thing I ask as a longtime CSUSM (staff and administrative) member and student of CSUSM, what advice would you give the Cross-Cultural Center to be more inclusive and, and get those people who are outside of the lines of the Latin(@/x) Center, or the Black (Student) Center? Berhane: I don't know if, uh, Floyd (Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time of the interview’s recording) will need my advice. I'm sure he, he is very familiar with what he's doing and what, you know, what he sees all the different centers around him, and he works very closely with the student centers and stuff. So they don't really need my advice. But I think, you know, always doesn't hurt to go back and look at who is, who is being engaged here? Who is our population? Who is the most frequently arrival here in relation to-- So if I were to look back at who the most popular, what population used to be there... more often it is more of the Asian population. Okay. So the Asian population probably don't have any other location, but the Multicultural Programs (Cross-Cultural Center). Because we, I'm being honest, this Black Student center, Latino Center, Indian Center, there's an argument there should be a White center too. But (laughs), that's a different story. But I think the thing is, you know, a lot of, we’ve got to go back and take a look at the purpose of this center. Are we serving the population that we were formed to serve and continually revise. Take, you know, take notes of all the people who have come to you on a daily basis and see if we are missing anybody. If we are missing anybody, the best place to meet them is at orientation. When they all come in on campus with their families and you know, tell them where all the different services are, make that as a, you know, make it as an effort. I used to do recruitment too even when I was a student assistant. Students who heard me talk about “Cal State Marcos will offer you this, this, and that.” Once they come to Cal State San Marcos, if they experience the things that I told them; Cal State San Marcos will serve you, they (the students) would remember that and say, “I'm so glad that you said that. I am glad I heard you say that.” And I can see, and really, I use that and it's helped, it has helped me. I really appreciate that. So, we need to be able to impact students from the day one, what kind of services we are providing for them and why they should come to our department, why they should come to our service, why they should come to my class, why they should do those things at the orientation, at wherever they are at the beginning. And so, identify your population, identifying all the different services you can provide, as much as you can provide. You don't expect someone, uh, search you and come to your office. They're not, they're not gonna come, unless they hear you say something, something. Stanley: So, yes. So to, to uh, summarize, make people aware of the program. Make sure that you know who you're serving and that, why they should come there. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 12 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: Yes. That's how I feel. That's how I feel. I mean, people need to know. A lot of people if they, if you don't know it, you don't know it, you're not going to go and search for it. You haven't heard anybody talking about it. So even though it may be available in your fingertips, this is different. Maybe I'm old fashioned, maybe I'm more like person to person, but for me, the only way people can come to (the services) is (if) they're aware of it. So make it aware and be clear about what services you're providing and where you are located, what your hours are, your phone number and blah blah. And have 'em (students) come. And it, again, it doesn't have to be limited to orientation or one area or this and that. Could be classrooms. It could be announcements, it could be a lot of things. But make sure that, you know, you are known on campus for providing services that all students need or specific students need. Stanley: All right. Well I really appreciate you coming. I'm gonna end the recording now. Berhane: Well, thank you. Uh, let me say thank you, uh, Seth, for this opportunity. And I say I'm grateful that you invited me and that I'm a part of this. I hope I have given you what I know a little bit, but I really appreciate this opportunity and thank you very much as well. Stanley: I enjoyed the conversation as well. Ending the recording now. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 13 2023-10-30 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Berhane, Gezai. Interview transcript. March 29th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Gezai Berhane is a California State University San Marcos alumnus, where he was part of the first graduating class. Since his graduation, Berhane was a CSUSM employee until his retirement in 2021. Most recently he worked as Associate Director of Operations. In this interview, Berhane discusses his immigration journey, involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, campus Greek life, and other student centers at California State University San Marcos. This interview was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from California State University San Marcos's Instructionally Related Activities Fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gezai Berhane Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-29 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Greek life California State University San Marcos. Student Activities Refugees -- Eritrea Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Eritrea San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Gezai Berhane Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29 Black experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Immigrant experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5490a2f714ae99ef8991f09f90947482.pdf f155830d06e7141eac3e5191343c7007 PDF Text Text BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: My name is Michael De Maria. I'm a graduate research assistant with Kellogg Library at CSU (Cal State University) San Marcos. Today I'm interviewing Bridget Blanshan, Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator here at CSU San Marcos. The date is April twenty-sixth, and the time is 1:36 p.m. So, Bridget, thank you for joining us today to discuss your involvement with the history of the Cross-Cultural Center, as well as talk about some other programs that you've implemented at CSU San Marcos. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: The first question I wanted to ask you was actually about your academic background. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: So what led you to your interest in student advocacy and ultimately administration in higher ed. (education)? Blanshan: Mm-hmm. Good question. So Michael, thanks for the time today. This is gonna be a fun conversation. So, I have a bachelor's degree in business management which I received from Iowa State University. That's the state in which I was born and raised through my college graduation. And while--as many of us, it occurs for many of us who go into student affairs work, it was really during my college experience that I interacted with student affairs professionals. I was involved on campus, and I thought, this is really rewarding for me, and this seems like an interesting career. Let me, let me see if I like it. Let me try it on. And so I had been active as a, a student leader and as a student employee, Resident Assistant was what they were called at that time in student housing at Iowa State (University). And I really enjoyed that role. And so, I spoke with my supervisor and asked what she thought, and she talked with me about kind of how to get my foot in the door and take a job to, to see if that was something I was interested in. So, I did that and I started as a Hall Coordinator at San Diego State University in 1990. I expected to be there just for a couple of years and then go back to the Midwest. But I really fell in love with the state and the CSU mission, which is really around as, as I think many of us are aware, really around being the educator for the state of California. Really providing an opportunity for the diverse student, um students across our state to get a college degree, many of whom are first in their family to do that. And that was something that I, I was very--really realized I was very passionate about. So, I then went on knowing that I would need a master's degree, at least, to continue in Student Affairs and work on a college campus. So, in 1993, I started a master's degree in a program called Educational Leadership at the University of San Diego. And I graduated with my master's degree in 1995. And that was great because I was able to match the, the core requirements, which was about half of the program, with relevant electives, which for me was able to do for example, some of the programs that they offered in their college student personnel or college student counseling program. So that was a great combination. And I continued working at San Diego State until 2001, at which point I came to CSUSM and started my, my tenure here. And then in 2004, I started a doctoral program at the University of Laverne, and it was a doctoral program in Organizational Leadership and found that really rewarding as well and really, really relevant. It's very much a hands-on applied program. So my educational background, which was really the focus of your question, is in management and leadership studies. I've been able to work in, either through courses that I've elected to take or the projects that I've done, really looking at organizations through a, a lens of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). And so I'm very grateful for being able to have done that. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: Very, very cool. And very impressive. You've been at CSUSM since 2001. I'd like to know what your first impression of CSUSM was, and then in particular, what work you felt like needed to be done there. Blanshan: Sure. So, as I mentioned, I was at San Diego State for eleven years working in student housing. While I was there, about midway through those eleven years, SDSU celebrated its’ centennial. And so then starting at, at CSUSM, and the position that I came to perform was what was then called the Director of Student and Residential Life. And in particular, we were bringin--University Village Apartments (UVA)--that was about concurrent when the time I started, that was approved to be constructed. So that was a major focus of getting the campus ready to have on-campus student housing, and students who were with us 24/7 rather than students commuting at the point as they did. And so coming to, from a(n) over one hundred-year-old campus to a campus that was really new--I'm not quite sure that, I don't think we had celebrated our fifteenth anniversary yet, or we did shortly around the time I arrived. I was, I really enjoyed the students that I met, and I found that the, the campus, the employees were really, really committed to the campus and to the student body. We had only been admitting first year students. It, we started, the campus started by admitting transfer students, and then over, within say the next five to seven years, started admitting first year students. So one of the things that I noticed, from a student life perspective, is it, we didn't have some of the common experiences that first year students on other campuses had. We, there, there were very few night and weekend kind of activities, and which only made sense because many of our transfer students had families of their own, the average age had been, of a student in the early days of CSUSM, had been in the late twenties, so around twenty-eight or twenty-nine years old. So that's, that's very different than the, the college experience that we're offering today. And so, I really looked for ways to start building the foundation, for that (student experience offered at CSUSM today). So at the time, Student and Residential Life included, so residential life, getting ready for student housing and the experience they, that students would have there. We had at the time, two fraternities and two sororities. So we had foundations of fraternity and sorority life. New student orientation was part of the department, as were student organizations. I wanna say within my first, first year or two, we had, I think all of thirty-one student organizations. So it was, again, in its, in its infancy a bit. And then we also, shortly thereafter, started leadership programs. And so that was kind of what we were building, and trying to build that with a vision as to the students that the university would come to serve, as opposed to the students that, that we had served in the, the beginning of the campus. So that's maybe a long answer to your question of what did I think we needed to do? And it was kind of set our, set ourselves up with the building blocks, so that we could serve a student body that was very diverse in terms of age. So at that point, we were, our diversification was to be the average age coming younger, students who lived on campus, and a true diverse student body; that would those kind of build those co-curricular foundations so that it was already, there wouldn't be impediments to students wanting to do things that really met their interests more than, than kind of how things had been outlined in the early years. De Maria: I see. So, a lot of new and exciting developments, obviously some growing pains, right? Blanshan: Oh, absolutely. Sure. De Maria: Cool. From there, I'd like you to take me back to 2002. So, in that year, you authored a memo titled “Vision 2010” that essentially espoused the need for, you know, a multicultural center on campus. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 So I just wanted to ask, what were your aspirations for offering that memo? And then why was there-you did explain it a bit in shifting demographics--but just why there was a need for a multicultural center on campus at that time. Blanshan: Yeah, I think, I think for me, and I mentioned this you know, as I shared with you about my education, I think it's both through my education of being able to look at, at leadership and organizations. And I would say that not only for being a workplace as a university, but also being a--a place, a college campus, is really looking at things through a diversity, equity, and inclusion lens. And so, making certain that we were continuing to evolve in a way where the students who were coming to study with us could feel that they could make a home or a connection somewhere. And so, it's, it's really to the notion of finding a sense of belonging. Some students would find that through a fraternity or sorority other students would find that through Associated Students (Incorporated, student governance organization). I felt very much that, two things; one was that some students would find a place that specifically was designed to be multicultural affirming and in that, that use of even the term “culture,” we intentionally set it very broadly because again, this was before we had any, any identity center on campus that was only student focused. So, this was before the Women's Center, which then evolved to the Gender Equity Center, now, Women's and Gender Equity Center, (it) was before the Pride Center. So, it really was defined “cultural” very, very broadly. So how people's experiences, their community, their sense of identity, and how we could really intentionally affirm that, so that students kind of felt a sense of belonging. I, going back to thinking about, you know, student development as they engage outside the classroom and thinking about, so I mentioned we were also developing a student leadership development program. So for me in, in, you know, being situated in a new millennium, right, in 2001, 2002, the only way to really do that authentically in a way that met student needs, but also spoke to students, but also prepared them for life after college, was to have a multicultural focus on leadership. And so not only what, what is the, the end goal of our leadership endeavors, but how do we do, how do we do leadership and prepare students to lead in very diverse teams, very diverse communities and, and do that in a variety of different ways. So as they want to go out and engage in change making, how might they do that? So that was where, one of the reasons that I wrote that which is so interesting now in 2023 to, to think back of writing “Vision 2010.” But to--I think it was also part of that foundation building that I was talking about before. How do we really create this so that we're intentionally offering as much as we can for places for students to plug-in and feel like CSUSM is theirs? And it's theirs not only as a place to belong, but in a place where they can engage and make it even better. The other thing that I would say, not only in my education, but eleven years at San Diego State in student housing, I had an amazing opportunity to be at a very diverse institution. And in student housing in particular, it's a very unique kind of learning lab for people to come together and live together, a wide variety, a wide diversity of students. So we had to be very, very intentional about preparing our staff, preparing our student leaders to do those roles in a very diverse environment. And so that very much affected kind of how I saw my work in Student Affairs. And a lot of the endeavors that we did throughout the 1990s to enable students, much like I described with a Multicultural Programs area, but to enable students to feel at home, especially students from communities and identities who were often marginalized. And so really pro- doing that in a very intentional way. De Maria: Absolutely. So it sounds like with the founding of that Multicultural Center you'd be essentially addressing some qualitative gaps in the student experience. Not only on the emotional kind Transcribed by Aaron Williams 3 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 of community front, but also allowing students to gain some professional experiences and background too. Blanshan: Mm-hmm. Exactly. De Maria: Very cool. Now I'd like to take you, I'd like for you to take me back to 2003. So what was the social climate of the campus like prior to the establishment of that first Multicultural Center? Blanshan: Wow, that's a great question. And, and I can only, in order to be fair, you know, this is, this is only my perspective on it. So I can't speak for how other people would've described the social climate. And clearly this is informed from my eleven years at San Diego State. So being a very large urban university in the middle of a very large city (San Diego)--San Marcos, at the time the region, North County region, was I would say much more socially and politically, religiously to some extent, conservative. Compared to the broader San Diego County. So that, I think we felt--I felt that, I'll speak for myself, I felt that at CSUSM, that and I think the university was kind of coming to terms with how do we, how do we serve our community knowing that there, that this is a more conservative area within the county. I think we had students who I knew div-- especially some of the, the diversity and i--of identities that aren't visible. Um I of course assumed that for example, we had LGBTQ+ students, but I didn't know them because there wasn't necessarily a student organization. So there wasn't the visibility or the space, as I was more accustomed to at San Diego State. And, and I don't think it was out of any intent to exclude anyone. I think it was just in the building, the very formative years of the institution, and really building the academic programs and coming in and it just was really the time in the institution's development to really focus on kind of broadening the co-curricular experiences for our students. So it was, it was certainly a transition for me. But I also, I would say I also found such wonderful professional colleagues who were of like-mind. And we, we came together and partnered a great deal toward these initiatives. So we had in, the department's name shifted, within my leadership of it, from Student and Residential Life to Student Life and Leadership. And we enjoyed amazing partnerships with Associated Students (Inc). And that's not always something that one takes for granted on a college campus. But I think we were able to come together, clarify you know, how we each add to the campus, to the student experience, and how we can support each other in doing that. So it was, there was a lot of synergy there. For that collaboration. I reported to the Dean of Students at the time, who very much shared this vision and supported it with everything that he could. Certainly the leadership in (Division of) Student Affairs were supportive as well. So I think it was, we were, we were just in that place of the development of the campus where it, I guess the way to sum it up is to say just because something didn't exist didn't mean there wasn't support for it. It just was that growth trajectory that the campus was taking. De Maria: Totally. And it, obviously with necessary growth, that's very cool to hear about. In a 2006 issue of The Pride (student) newspaper, while introducing a talk from Reverend Dr. Jamie Washington, you describe Cal State San Marcos students as “having good fortune for being in a place where not everyone looks like them.” I'd like to know how programs at the Cross-Cultural Center, or at the time the Multicultural Center reinforced that notion and what those early programs looked like. Blanshan: Sure. That's--you're reminding me of things I've forgotten (laughs). One of the things that the Associate Director at the time, so the founding Associate Director Dilcie Perez, one of her first initiatives was, and this was another partnership with the Dean of Students Office, with all of Student and Transcribed by Aaron Williams 4 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 Residential Life at the time and ASI (Associated Student Inc.) was, she built the Multicultural Student Leadership Council. And so, within that council there were, started really with looking at student organizations that were built around identity. So, that could have been one, our, if we had a Women's Studies Student Association, which we did back in the day, if we had an African-American Student Association, so some of the predecessors of, you know, BSU (Black Student Union) or our LGBTQ student org (Pride Center), other organizations that were built around religious identity and expression. So really looking at purposely bringing people together, knowing that their, that their focus of their organization, their identities may be different, but the organization had a common mission which was to promote student belonging, advocate for student needs. And so how could they support each other or be allies for each other as they each sought to do that independently, but then also where the, where are the ways that they could promote that collectively as well. So that was, that was just one example. I think, you know when we had Dr. Washington, I remember, I remember that year and I remember the, we had a wonderful turnout of student leaders to go through that experience. And I remember thinking that and he was really focusing on diversity and leadership and equity and, and equity minded leadership. And what are, how do we get to know each other in all of the identities that we all share and that those in which we’re different. And the intersectionality that all of us represent. And so I think I just remember looking across the students that were assembled that evening and thinking, this, this is, this is the kind of opportunity that without the diversity of our student body, that opportunity would not exist. And so how do we, how do we take that and make that a transformative experience being the ultimate goal? De Maria: Totally. Yeah. And I think one theme that we've already touched on is, you know, the value of that educational experience, but also as a professional experience too. So being in diverse places oftentimes makes us just better at what we do. And then regarding your participation in, you know, Multicultural Center programs or Cross-Cultural Center programs I'd like to know about specific programs that were put on and then what your experiences were like, kind of engaging with them or directing with them. Blanshan: Sure. Oh, there were a handful. We did, we had started some, and I'm not going to remember the name of it, but a kind of a Cross-Cultural welcome for incoming students is kind of one of the, the events that we would offer at week, what are now referred to as Weeks of Welcome. Again, I think creating space where students could just check it out, see what it's like, 'cause that's really, you know it, we want students to explore as much of the campus communities as they can as soon as they get here. And so, I think not only to experience and to hear but also to experience that through this event, we're symbolizing the importance of not only diversity, but inclusion. And, and we often put those two words together, but they're, they're different, right? I think diversity, diversity exists, and it doesn't mean that it, it exists without our collective effort, but just because someplace is diverse doesn't mean it's inclusive. And so how do we symbolize that, have that be kind of a, a cornerstone program that kicks-off a student's experience at CSUSM, and then how do we just start and build on that? So, certainly doing hosting and co-hosting that for several years is, is one example. We talked about the Multicultural Student Leadership Council that we would do overnight retreats. That evolved over time into the better part of a weekend. So a Friday through, kind of like midday Friday through midday Sunday experience for students. And I think that kind of deep dive and being part of that was always really, really rewarding. Again, very harken back to a lot of the work that I had done at, at San Diego State. So really kind of bringing that in, for students to be able to do a deep dive and for them to create space where it's--it's where learning is okay and discomfort is expected. And to, you Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 know, really hopefully broaden their viewpoints, or affirm those that may not be held by many or most students. And so I think doing that (overnight retreats), I think there were, oh gosh so many things as we brought out, brought on student housing as well that I've, I will always describe student housing as a high risk, but also high reward offering. A high risk in that if, again looking at it through the lens of a diverse student body, that if there's, if we're not there intentionally assisting students to live together through those differences, then the risk of someone feeling very targeted and excluded can be really high. The counterpoint to that is if that's done well, and of course that's, that part of doing that well is the, is students themselves being open to it. That can be an amazingly impactful experience. So, I think working very intentionally in partnership of--with our Resident Advisor, training with our professional staff and being part of the selection and training of those folks. Having that voice at the table that really is looking at how are we preparing for the student experience through a lens of, diversity and equity and inclusion. Or lenses, I should say. And that's not to say that we always got it right. But it, but there's not a chance of getting it right if there's not some intentionality to it. De Maria: Totally, and just acknowledging the difficulty of including that student housing component with Student Life, it, you know, sounds like you needed everyone to be all in, not just to provide that good experience, but also to provide the proper one for certain individuals. Blanshan: Right. Right. Yep. Yeah, it was, it was a, I reflect so fondly on those early days because it very much was we regard(less), everyone had a bit of a different role, right? Different responsibilities. But in order for anyone to succeed, it required everybody. Simply because of the size of our departments or the size of our institution. And we figured out how to do that well. So that actually was a rewarding outcome just to be kind of in community with our colleagues to support whatever endeavor was, was happening at the time. De Maria: Very cool. For my next question, I wanted to know about instances of activism you witnessed. Or participated in that stemmed from the Cross-Cultural Center slash Multicultural Center. Blanshan: Wow. It's hard to pinpoint something that stemmed only from Multicultural Programs, 'cause again, I was talking about that collaboration, that synergy. So I would maybe hope you'll allow me to go maybe a little bit broader. Some of the things that, that we just kind of accept as business as usual if you will, are the fact that we have the number of identity related centers that we do. So back in the day, at the start of the Cross-Cultural, well again, what we call Multicultural Programs and we had a very, very small space. But it then I think, and through our partnership with ASI (Associated Students Inc.) and their own commitment, then that generated a Women's Center, then generated the LGBTQ+ Pride Center. And then we, if you look at the (University) Student Union (CSUSM building), if you were to walk the third floor of the Student Union, you would see the Cross-Cultural Center, the Latin@/x Center, Women's and Gender Equity, and the Pride Center. You'd go up another floor and see, see the Black Student Center and more centers to come. Certainly we have the Veteran’s Center and the, it's space where it's at. I think, I like to think that Multicultural Programs laid the, laid the ground for that to grow. Because I think having a space to come together and people to see what happens when students come together, then kind of lends itself to now we've opened the door, let's talk about what we want this to look like. And I, and those occurred by like I said, either through ASI or through student organizations and student leaders, really activating with the university leadership to make sure that they happen, in the case of Latinx and BSC (Black Student Center). So I think I look at it that way. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 I look at, at the fact that all the centers are in general in the same location. And that was very intentional. They're--we didn't split them out by like their home department, if you will. It was, “How do we place these so students are going to engage them as, as much as we can get them to engage?” And so it's no accident that they're on the third floor (of the University Student Union) together, right under food. 'Cause we know students will come in for food. I think things like University Hour (no classes held between 12 to 12:50pm Tuseday and Thursday) is that, you know, how does that relate to you know, Multicultural Programs? I think it relates because we also were introducing programs and events that where we could articulate the student learning associated with those programs and events. To reserve, you know, twelve to twelve fifty a couple of days a week in a college in a university's academic schedule is no small sacrifice. That is, can be considered prime teaching time. And I think it was because we had laid a foundation that we will, we’re able to say it's not that education is stopping from twelve to twelve fifty, it's just we're enabling students; in particular, those students who didn't live with us weren't able because of maybe they had family and work and, and all kinds of things, but they were likely on campus so they could have an experience that they otherwise wouldn't have. Sorry, I can think of you know pointing to something as now that we see as large--that we can only envision, as large as the USU (University Student Union) I could see the vacant ground from my office window of where it was, where it now was built and sitting; to something that I think, you know, University Hour is tradition here. I think presently the Student Leadership and Involvement Center which is kind of an evolvement of what we started with Student and Residential Life. They also continue to offer Women's Leadership Symposium. So that was something we also launched about the same time leadership from a leadership and cultural place. Because I think when we broadly consider a cultural experience or an identity related experience, I think that's where we get into notions that gender and how we are socialized to be however we identify in our gender is a really important factor to how we engage with the campus and the broader world. So. De Maria: Yeah, and I really, that really resonates with me in terms of thinking of the establishment of those centers as activism. Ultimately, all activism is meant to affect an institutional change. So it's just very empowering to hear that there were so many individuals who were empowered to do that and kind of follow in the Multicultural Center's footsteps in that respect. Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. De Maria: Well so, for my next question on a bit of a different noteBlanshan: Sure. De Maria: I managed to find a mem- or a letter, I guess, from FIRE, the Foundation for Individual Rights and Education. And that was a letter that you were cc'd (carbon copied) on regarding a student publication called the Koala. So the Koala, just giving a brief summary for anyone listening to this interview, was a satirical newspaper on CSUSM campus that was known for publishing questionable, lewd, some would even say obscene content about people in the community and would sometimes lampoon, you know certain efforts from student organizations to do a lot of (laughs) to affect change positively. Blanshan: Right. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: So my question isn't necessarily about the Koala, but it is about opposition. So I do want to ask you if there were groups, or if there was prominent opposition? And how that manifested itself on campus. Blanshan: And when you, you say opposition, are you thinking opposition to establishing Multicultural Programs, or as we kind of went out and did various programmatic initiatives, or? De Maria: I'm referring to cha- yeah, so challenging the necessity for Multicultural Programs as well as the outcomes of those programs. Blanshan: Hmm. You know, I, I think we see so many examples of that, that opposition today. I think I, as we set out to kind of create you know the vision and mission for Multicultural Programs, it was--how do I say this? I think there are different roles for different change makers to move society forward. So I think there are some that are, are very focused on being almost, there's a role for opposing existing institutions. There's also a role for folks operating inside an institution to elevate something, which is kind of how I would think we did this with Multicultural Programs, bringing the program to life, bringing, you know creating even more space for it. I think there wasn't opposition to it organizationally, and I don't--so this is the catch with trying to mem--you know, go back 20 years in memory. I don't know that there was vocal or visible pushback, but I do think anytime we're talking about social justice and equity, it can be an inclusive space for some, and it also because it's challenging the status quo leaves others feeling excluded or blamed or it, that's where some of that discomfort happens. And I think we very much try to include, even voices who might say, you know, “Why do we need this?” Why do we-because I think it was, it's always being able to say to a student who may say, “I don't think we need this on, on campus. I don't think the campus should be spending resources in this way.” Being able to sit down and say, “Okay, let's talk about your vision for your career. Where, do you hope to work?” And, you know, learning more about the, the individual. “Who do you think your coworkers will be? Who do you think your boss might be? Who do you think, if you were if you have constituents that your product or services is going out to target, who will they be? And think about how these experiences might better prepare you to be successful in that environment that you are in that future that you're envisioning for yourself.” So I think trying to include, include everybody? While knowing that the impact of the program, the experience, or the initiative is gonna be different based on how people see themselves. And how they perceive their place to be in the campus community or the world. De Maria: Totally. And once again, you kind of touched on that concept of social justice, diversity, and equity kind of being necessary as something that we kind of can't avoid living in the modern world. So again, definitely resonates with me and is definitely a pertinent message to anyone who might not see the value of certain programs like that. Regarding the Cross-Cultural Center itself, I'd like you to tell me what your favorite memory is. Blanshan: Hmm. I have many. I think certainly something that comes to mind are the, when we started the retreats, and we kind of, this was, when I say “we,” it was a very broad “we,” so it was folks who maybe their- our positions didn't envision us being on a weekend retreat with students. But because people had either an area of expertise or a passion or experience in another role at another campus or another, you know, organization such as like Anti-Defamation League or something like that, that they could really come together, brought a group of people together that didn't always work with each other, and to really offer something that could be so transformative. And I think it's just, and also being with Transcribed by Aaron Williams 8 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 students as they go through an experience like that is a really--it's a unique opportunity of getting to kind of participate in or watch from the side of students grappling with concepts, grappling with their emotions around whatever it is we're talking about. Creating space to hear each other. You know, those are, those are just really powerful experiences. So that, that would absolutely be a favorite. I don't think I could name the favorite, but definitely a favorite. It's also been a pleasure to watch the space grow and watch it grow in terms of now I think some of the, the great work that Floyd (Lai)'s (Director of the Cross-Cultural Center, 2011-2023) been doing with us for, for many years, but like the Activist Lab (Cross-Cultural Center work space) or you know, working on, on preparing people to have difficult dialogues and how to do that. I think I think it's so critically, it's been critically important the whole time. But I, as I reflect on kind of what we're hit with in the media today about our, our own country and the world, that's not something we're seeing. We see people who you know, have very spiteful, hateful reactions to even ideological differences. And so, I think being able to, even if it's a few students at a time, it's enabling someone to have a conversation or see a conversation where we can have very, very passionate differences, but we can still respect each other. And in an ideal place learn from each other. De Maria: Totally. And that also relates back to what you were mentioning regarding diversity and inclusion not being the same thing and not being a package deal all the time. So I can definitely see that importance of inclusion, you know, even if it does lead to those difficult conversations or acknowledging some not so favorable things about our own behavior, things that we've said in the past. Blanshan: Yeah (talking over each other). Yeah. De Maria: So I, I totally get that. In shifting gears a little bit here, I do want to talk about your doctorate. As well as your 2007 dissertation in particular. So that was (a) study of the multicultural awareness of professional residence hall directors in California colleges. And in your own words, I just wanted to know what your findings were. Blanshan: Hmm. Findings were that it, the instrument was a self-support, or self-report survey. So I don't think any person who's done research would tell you what findings are without acknowledging that there are limitations to any method. I think, so within that self-report, what we got back were fairly I would say moderate to high levels of multicultural awareness. And so the notion, if you look at, you know, “Why is that important?” It's a construct by Pope and Reynolds, back in the early two thousands, of a construct of Multicultural Competence in Student Affairs (Advancing Social and Inclusion; book by Raechele L. Pope and Amy L. Reynolds). And so, Pope and Renolds talk about that being multicultural awareness, multicultural knowledge, and multicultural skills. And so that awareness, knowledge of skills has to be there. But awareness of others and awareness of myself, if that's not there, then we're kind of-then we can't get to this place of multicultural competence, which in the dissertation I really argued was an essential aspect to student affairs work because of the diversity of our student bodies. So it was a fairly, like I said moderate to high in terms of the quantitative. I think as I reflect on it, not a surprise, although you know, you never know what you, you don't know what you don't know until you learn it. I probably got just as much out of the sliver of qualitative part of that instrument of learning where people believe their awareness came from. So, was it “I lived abroad as a child.” I think that was a response. There were, and it just, the range because it showed just a different level of reflection of, “What do I think this is? And where do I think this (multicultural competency) came from in me?” I could Transcribed by Aaron Williams 9 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 rate myself highly, but someone else may not agree. Right? So, there's the opportunity for other research of validating this self-report with peer or supervisorial ratings as well. But I think asking people, “Where did that (multicultural competency) come from?” was a really interesting aspect of that. De Maria: Got it. Very, very cool. And going from there I also wanted to ask you what your relationship was like with Dr. Gregory Toya (current Associate Dean of Students at CSUSM)? In particular I want to know if-- what your involvement was in his study regarding the importance of cultural spaces on college campuses and its relationship to student retention. Blanshan: Right. You see me smiling. I have a very fond place, for Greg. He was--I started as the Associate VP (Vice President), Interim Associate VP and Dean of Students in 2006. Right about March and April of that year, and in June or July Dr. Toya joined as the Associate Dean. And so, he was just a wonderful collegial partner. And I was able to--he started his doctoral program shortly, maybe a couple of years into his time on our campus. He had come from cross-cultural center work. That was his most recent position, before coming to us (CSUSM). And one of the reasons that I was interested in Greg joining our team, and selecting him, was because of that experience. And so, to see him then study that for his dissertation made all kinds of sense in the world. And I appreciated his thought about not only the association of a Cross-Cultural Center on student retention, but I think he also looked at what are some of those aspects of leadership or leaders in Cross-Cultural Centers that contribute to that (student retention). And you know, it was again, not a surprise because one of, to hire people into student affairs work, we typically will ask them to spend better part of a day or sometimes a day and a half with us interviewing on campus. And that typically will involve presentation. And so the presentation he was asked to provide, so I'm going back to 2006 before he even started his doctorate, was to ask him to name a student development theory or framework that he felt he would rely on to do the associate dean job as it was then defined. So he was working with students through student conduct, working through students with students on, students that were considering withdrawing from the university, and some other aspects of what was happening in the Dean of Students Office at the time. And he chose actually one of my favorite frameworks too. It's by Nancy Schlosberg. And I can't spell that out loud for you today, but I can get you the citation. But Schlosberg talks about marginality and mattering, and I don't recall his dissertation well enough, but that's kind of a foundational thing of: if I believe that I matter, then I'm more likely to participate, I'm more likely to persevere when things are really difficult because I matter to the campus, or I matter to someone on campus. As opposed to: if I feel like I don't make a difference at all, and I'm kind of experiencing something from a, you know, I'm experiencing even, not that I even worse than, “I don't make a difference.” But if I'm--if I feel like I'm being marginalized on my campus, then those things are less likely to happen. Those, all those things where we ask, because we're already asking so much of a student who may experience marginalization just to come back to campus day-to-day, let alone go through things that just happen in life when a student's studying for a college degree. And so, I think I was thrilled to work with Greg as he did his doctoral program and his dissertation and remember him, his (dissertation) defense as well. It was, it was a great day. De Maria: That's awesome. And I do have a few more questions left. Blanshan: Sure. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 De Maria: All relating to the Cross-Cultural Center itself. So my next question, just in general how has the Cross-Cultural Center changed over time? Blanshan: Hmm. Well I think, you know even something, it's a name but I think names are incredibly important. You know, going from Multicultural Programs to Cross-Cultural Center, I think as we started to see more, whether it be services, spaces, organizations kind of become present on campus I think it could focus more on that cross-cultural aspect as opposed to providing a home base for everyone. Not that it shouldn't still be that, I would want any student, and I'm not the only one who would want this, any student to feel comfortable going to the Cross-Cultural Center. But I think some of the work like I was mentioning before, the Activist Lab, some of the space where we really can get into those dialogues across differences and, “What the heck is a dialogue anyway and how is that different than a debate?” You know I think that's, that gives it more space, more programmatic and physical space to be able to do those things. So that's been great to see it (the Cross-Cultural Center) evolve and kind of redefine its role over the last two decades. De Maria: Absolutely. And it's also been very enjoyable for me to hear about the genesis of a lot of these programs, especially as I'm embarking on these interviews and kind of hearing about things that happened, but not necessarily knowing the beginning of that. So, it's definitely a rich history, and I'm also glad it's been around for so long. Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. De Maria: And my last few questions are about the future of the Cross-Cultural Center. But how have your experiences with (the) Cross-Cultural Center impacted you as a professional? And what kind of programs do you see yourself working on as a result of those experiences? Blanshan: You know, I think--I think for me you know, from its, even its inception, it was a kind of a sense, a place of where I could kind of recharge myself. So, because it was a space that was overtly designed for, to be welcoming of people across differences, being welcome of myriad identities. And so, you know just talking about a very personal impact to me is it's a great place to say, “okay, I may be having, maybe it's a difficult day, but you know, I can just stop in and say hello and talk with a staff member.” And especially, you know, early on. And that was, that was a highlight. Like I said, it's been enriching to, you know, years ago participate in some of the retreats or actually some of the training that was offered and partner with different people to do that. I think I still--I enjoy supporting it. I think you know for the past you know, as you think about, as I think about my role as a Title IX Coordinator, and then also someone who oversees the University's response to concerns of discrimination and harassment, I see that as just another function within our stated values to be an inclusive community. And so, it's not directly related to the Cross-Cultural Center, but I think I hold on to initiatives like the Cross-Cultural Center as those initiatives. For example, among our students where we can enable them to feel included rather than, like I was saying before, marginalized which sometimes means that they believe they've experienced discrimination or harassment. I think, so it's all that is very um, it’s just kind of all blended in there. I couldn't, in working at the CSU, so I talked about working at CSUSM and San Diego State, you know spending my entire career at the CSU isn't an accident, for me. It's very much about the mission of the system. And to me that mission has to be informed through the values of Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 inclusion and equity. And so I can't imagine that--I can't imagine being fulfilled by my work if that, if I weren't able to do that. De Maria: Totally. And that's also resonating with me regarding the establishment of the Cross-Cultural Center, kind of being like a manifestation of that mission, as well as like representing future programs that the University's gonna commit to. So, (I) totally get that. Um, going forward, what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of other identity-specific spaces on campus? Blanshan: Mm-Hmm. I think it, I think it's a reflection of intersectionality, in one part, right? And it's not to say that our identity centers aren't inclusive of the many identities that are represented within students who go to the Latin@/x Center, or the Black Student Center. So I think we're all, we have many intersections within our, each of us individually. But I think the Cross-Cultural Center being able to look at and potentially unpack some unique areas of historical tension, provide space for if we have student organizations existing on our campus that those communities in our world may be at conflict. How can the Cross-Cultural center help them to kind of find common purpose? Even if they're representing potentially even two warring communities somewhere in the globe. I think (the) Cross-Cultural Center, if you look at it as leadership programs continue to be built out. Whether it's a, even as you, like we talked about the Women's Leadership Symposium and that being very specifically open to everyone, regardless of how a student identifies based on their gender. So being explicitly inclusive of women, men, and all genders that with which students identify, but to understand a unique, some of the historical and then the evolving issues for leadership as informed by experience and socialization based on gender. So I think, you know, that even something that looks, or people may perceive that this is this initiative, this Women's Leadership Symposium is only for women. There is a, there's a space for everyone. And so I think whether that's, you know building on intersectionality that we understand or--and or purposely really creating experiences for cross-cultural -broadly defined -- exchange. I think, you know I think that's where it's going to continue to be essential to our campus. De Maria: Yeah. And it's very inspiring to recognize that there's still room for growth and for change in the (Cross-Cultural) Center, even though it you know has been so successful and so impactful. So obviously, you know people change (laughs), culture and societies change, methods of education change. So, it's awesome to recognize that center can coexist, but also serve a specialized purpose at the same time. Blanshan: Yeah. I think the--expanding the centers that we offer on campus helps give each center potentially a more, I don't wanna say narrow, but more clarified purpose. More focused purpose maybe. But there has to be synergy and a very purposeful, intentional collaboration. So that we can provide what we want to for our students. De Maria: Absolutely. Blanshan: At least I think what we should provide to our students. De Maria: Absolutely. On a different note, what communities do you feel are currently underrepresented on campus? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 12 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 Blanshan: I know we have conversation about an American Indian student center. I think we also are in communication about an APIDA center, Asian Pacific Islander (Desi American). So I think those are meeting needs. I think we look at, I know there was a lot of conversation that went into what the center, that into the naming of the center, which is now the Women's and Gender Equity Center. I think the importance of women being explicitly included in the name is important. I think, and I think it's also critical that it's not, I don't wanna say just, that it's not only a Women's Center, because I think we need to also be able to symbolically and programmatically represent the spectrum of gender that we should be affirming in our campus community. I think our student, our student body, our campus community is, it's a microcosm of our world. So, I think there are, could be that, and if you were to look at some of our campus climate studies, you might see that certainly we have disability support services which provide amazing services for our students with disabilities. But do, are, is there more that we could do different from DSS (Disabled Student Services)? Or more like a, whether it's a more social aspect or a sense of belonging. You know, DSS has a very specific role to play, but is there more we could be doing on our campus? I think, I think we continue to grapple, like every campus does across the nation with issues of bias, discrimination, and violence, sexual misconduct, sexual harassment. I think, and I think that's something that we need to keep our eye on in terms of our prevention and education. Those are, experiences like that are often life-changing. And so, you know how do we work our best work to prevent them? And in the event that they're not prevented, how do we make sure that our intervention and our response is as effective as it can be? So, you know I think, and I think we're and every college campus is a human institution. And humans, we’re pretty fallible. And we're it's a, like I said a microcosm of a broader, a broader environment. So, I think there are always ways that we need to be asking the question that you just asked. So who do we, who do we think is experiencing marginalization? And how do we start creating multiple approaches? Because there's, there's not just there will never be a one-size fits all approach to that dilemma. De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. And that's what leads to those kind of like, difficult, I guess you'd call 'em, conversations about— Blanshan: Absolutely. De Maria: --affecting change and doing the work, basically (De Maria laughs) in order to do that. So, thank you for sharing those thoughts with me. Blanshan: Sure. De Maria: And for my final question, I wanted to ask you personally, if someone is interested in pursuing a career in student advocacy or even social justice, what recommendations or tips would you give them? Blanshan: Hmm. That's a great question. I when I think of advocacy and I think of a career in something like social justice, and not a surprise, right? We talked about my educational background. So I think of many things in terms of leadership, right? I think one of the first things to be mindful of is, and I, and this is, this is also true in that little snippet I gave you about multicultural awareness, being an awareness of others, but also awareness of self. I think leadership, especially on something such as social justice, such as advocacy, is (that) it requires a consistent intention. A consistent attention to my own motivations, how I—kind of_where are those things where I find that really feed my purpose, why I want to do this Transcribed by Aaron Williams 13 2023-11-17 �BRIDGET BLANSHAN TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-26 work, and how do I kind of refuel when I've had difficulty. But I think in leadership and in equ--diversity and equity and inclusion work, if we don't always have a mirror back on ourselves so that we could keep ourselves in check, I think it could start, we can, the impact of our work can start to go awry. And I don't know if that makes sense, but I think it's really trying to stay on, what do I think is needed to make positive change. Is this just my thought or have I consulted with others, especially those who disagree with me? To think through what--am I in a blind spot? And then to go out and do the work in a way that we can sustain the work personally and professionally. De Maria: Totally. And I think--I think it does take a community to affect that change. And going back to what you mentioned earlier about diversity versus inclusion, the marriage of those concepts, it requires us to include others and to make those decisions, not just as a sole member, but as a collective. Blanshan: Yeah. I think--I think critical friends are essential. So, yeah I, we always learn more from people who are willing to, I'll speak for myself. I always learn more from people who are willing to say, “I disagree with you, and here's why. And I think you're missing something.” Because that gets me, that stops me before I might do something that might have an impact that completely contradicts what my hope was. So. De Maria: Absolutely. Well thank you for sharing that with us, and that's gonna be the end of this interview. Bridget again, can't say enough how much I appreciate you taking time out for this. I think this is gonna be an excellent resource for anyone interested in the history of the Cross-Cultural Center or just looking for some inspiration in joining the field of student advocacy and social justice. So once again, thank you. Blanshan: Thank you, Michael. It was a pleasure. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 14 2023-11-17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Blanshan, Bridget. Interview, April 26, 2023. Description An account of the resource Bridget Blanshan is Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Title IX Coordinator at California State University San Marcos. In this interview, Blanshan discusses her educational & professional background, student leadership development, and diversity and inclusivity on campus. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bridget Blanshan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-26 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. 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Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BlanshanBridget_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-26_transcript Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6b22ccbc00d0322a6ff45172fc768927.pdf 510d392504b80cf01ac05eeecaed2feb PDF Text Text TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley. Today I am interviewing Gerardo Cabral for the California State University San Marcos Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 28th, 2023, and this interview is taking place via Zoom. Hi Gerardo. Thank you for coming. Gerardo Cabral: Hey, Seth! (Both Laugh) Stanley: To start off, could you give me a, a bit of background and how you ended up at CSUSM? Cabral: Yeah, so I'm originally from San Diego, and born and raised there. And so Cal State San Marcos and San Diego State were sort of my options. I, I didn't ever think of leaving. So how I ended up at Sac(ramento State)--or not Sac State--Cal State San Marcos is I transferred there after I did about five years at Palomar College. I was working full-time. And so with that, I worked with my EOP (Educational Opportunity Program) counselor and we, we submitted some applications locally. And so got into to Cal State San Marcos and I thought it was a great fit. Felt it, it, it felt good to attend and sort of in the current stage of my life at that moment. And so, accepted it and my journey started 2008. Stanley: Very cool. Could you tell us about your journey from, from be being a student at CSUSM to becoming a community relations manager at ABC 10 (News San Diego)? Cabral: Oh, wow. Yeah, that's a big question. (Stanley laughs). It's a long-- (both talking at once) Stanley: Go for it, man. Cabral: But essentially so, in 2008, so I graduated high school in 2003, and--and so I went to high school that didn't have a lot of support for sort of students of underprivileged and underserved backgrounds. So I really didn't have the choice of going to a four-year (college). I did have some of my friends go and they talked about their experience. As I was in college, I was experiencing sort of the, the life outside of their lens, outside of that lens. And so when I was going to Cal--, when I was going to Palomar, the community college I did, I did tell it to myself that I was gonna transfer into a four-year and I was going to make everything possible to get that quote unquote college experience without living on campus. So I did that. So when I got to Cal State San Marcos one of the first things was like, I wanted to get involved. I wanted to work on campus. Mind you, I was working full-time at, as a financial advisor at a credit union. But I Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 1 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral felt it was so important for me to get that experience because if I didn't, I would probably regret it for the rest of my life. So I wanted to make sure that I made friends, that I worked on campus, that I really engaged with sort of the culture of the campus community. And so I went--I went online and I started looking at jobs, and I saw this peer educator position at the Cross-Cultural Center. I've always had, I took a lot of Chicano Studies classes, Ethnic Studies classes. So I really had this fond appreciation for multicultural education, and understanding, and you know, the, the, the work of what that all encompasses. And so, so I applied for that. To be honest, my interview probably didn't go as well because I was in, I was in the mindset of a financial advisor position. I had already been there for seven years, and so I thought like, oh, I'm gonna get this interview in the bag. But then once I started having them ask me questions about like, what's my, what's my definition of equity and diversity? I knew what it was, but I wasn't able to articulate it in a way where it's like, you know in sort of that academia space. So-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: I wasn't offered that position right away. But I did have a director at the time of Student Life in Leadership, her name is, Dilcie. Dr. Dilcie Perez. She came up to me and talked to me and was like, “Hey, like, you know you did, you did a good job, but you know there are some things that you could improve on in your interview.” And this, this, and that. And, you know as a, as a seasoned career staff already in the financial industry, it took me off guard that this individual actually provided me feedback. At the moment I was just-- that's interesting. But I really appreciated it after, because, you know, I was getting into a different career essentially, you know-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --because I had quit my full-time job. And then I went into this, in this multicultural education space. Nonetheless, I got the job. I was offered the job shortly after. I sort of was able to sort of articulate a little bit more my passions and my interest for the position. And yeah. So I did that. I was very involved in sort of the, that peer educator, the multicultural teaching work. And I think it was not--it was beneficial for me personally because I was learning firsthand some of these theories and things that were, that were being put into place. And I was sort of like starting to connect dots. ‘Cause I've always, I always knew what this was. I always practiced, you know, inclusivity, but I never was able to put terms to it until when I went into this role as a peer educator. So I would say that my foundation for community-building and community-connecting became stronger and solidified when I was in this role. So once I graduated, I went into become, I became a resident director at San Diego State (University). And I got-- simultaneously, I was working as my master's, my master's program. And so what I did was I was doing a lot of community-connecting. I was overseeing a staff of twenty-two individuals, and I was really building and fostering this inclusive living, working and live and work space at San Diego State. ‘Cause I was overseeing the dorms there. And then I had a staff. So really it, I was putting all my teachings into practice. And so that was, that happened for about five years. Then I transitioned out. and I took a job at Sac(ramento) State (University) as the Associate Director for Student Engagement and Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 2 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Outreach, which sort of aligned really closely with the work that I was already doing, sort of that community connecting, engaging with students, really making them feel belonged and providing events and services that made them feel welcome to campus. Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: So I did that for about a year. And then that was the first time I ever moved out of San Diego State. So I went--actually, I moved back to San Diego, (connection issue) shortly after, not because-- well one, I really didn't like the job and, and sort of its politics, but I was missing home a lot. So I came back and I worked for Barrio Logan College Institute, which was a nonprofit in Barrio Logan. And I was their--I was doing their college and career program there. So, I already had this understanding of like, how the pathways to get into college and, and really was sharing with them sort of their experiences and how to make the most of their experiences at the university level. Being sort of first generation and Latinx backgrounds. And basically teaching them sort of based off of my lived experiences. And then (both laugh) then in 2020, right before I took a job at Sac State, ’cause my husband was actually in Sacramento when I moved out there the first time, he stayed. And so I went back there, and then I took a job in Alumni Relations where I was really fostering relationships with a lot of community members, really doing a lot of philanthropy work, development work and a lot of development work is all relationship building. And I think within this role, you know, as a peer educator, I was building a lot of trust. I was building a lot of relationships with individuals who perhaps didn't understand the concepts or understandings of diversity, equity, and inclusion, but was able to really foster those relationships and really meet them at where they were at. So, we could teach them sort of the importance of that-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --or at least have them hear us out in those spaces. So that was, so that was that. And then, then in 2021, I was--I mean we were all in a pandemic and so we were all sort of at a standstill, but I was sort of, I was sort of recruited into this role that I currently have now. I wasn't job searching, but you know, I had taken a leadership program during COVID(-19) or during quarantine, and my name was sort of thrown out. Somebody invited me out for coffee, offered me this great opportunity that I couldn't pass up because it felt really great, and here I am! (Stanley Laughs) And so I've been there almost two years now, come September. It's crazy to even think that I've been in this role for two years and I'm working in broadcasting. But it is something that I never would've thought. But I have never regretted it once and I enjoy it. I've, I've enjoyed it ever since. Stanley: Wow. Well, what a story. (Both laugh) Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 3 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Cabral: Yes. Right. Stanley: Yeah. Could you, could you tell me about your current role, as Community Relations Manager? Cabral: Yeah. So, like you said I'm the current Community Relations Manager at ABC-10 which is--our call letters are KXTV for the broadcast folks out there. But yeah, so we're, ABC-10 is a local, is a Sacramento local news station that broadcasts news for three of the counties here in Northern California: Sacramento County, Modesto (County), and Stockton (County). And my primary role is really--is to be the brand ambassador for my station and for my organization. It's really about going out and infusing myself into the community and really letting people know who we are, what we do, and what we stand for, our brand. I'm sort--I'm housed out of marketing and so a lot of my role is intentional marketing, with a focus of, you know, relationship building. And so I do a lot of the work. I mean, I wish I could say what I do in one sentence, (Stanley laughs) but I feel like I can't-Stanley: Well. Cabral: --but, Oh, go ahead. Stanley: (unintelligible) Say several sentences, (laughs). Cabral: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, essentially, like I said, I'm the brand ambassador. And so what that encompasses is really just, you know, our brand is: we stand--ABC-10, we stand for you. It's really you know, historically, news outlets have always been sort of seen as negative outlets for storytelling. You know with, because we're typically always covering shootings, deaths, killings and things like that. And so we've made it our mission before I even got here--five years ago when we rebranded and we reevaluated our mission and values for the station. We wanted to, we--our organization had committed to making sure that we were the community leader and sharing stories not only in the sense of letting people (be) aware of the things that are happening maybe that are challenging in our communities, but also those things that are elevating and impacting, celebrating the things in our community. So we, so my role is to build those community relationships, that community trust and share with them that, hey, we're looking for community storytelling partners to not only--because again, we're none of us, not a lot of us in the newsroom are from Sacramento. So it's like having somebody tell a story from where you're from and you're like, oh, they don't even know, they don't even know San Diego like that. Right? If for me, I--when I see the news and I'm like, “Why would they call, why would they call it that?” I'm like, that's not Chula Vista. That's, San Ysidro or, this is Escondido not Nor-- whatever, you know, we start to nitpick. And so really, it's about again, that's what we're--we look for storytelling partners to help us tell the stories that are being impacted in the community. The great work that we are doing, the community leaders, how can we highlight them? Because again, we want to change this notion of news Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 4 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral to be all negative, and we want it to be both informative but also celebratory as well. Because again we are part of the community. We are, sometimes individuals look at us as the face of the community-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --because they're watching us on the screen. And so what can we do to build that trust and to showcase the greatness that it, that is Sacramento. Stanley: Um-Hm. Would you have any examples of you doing development work or fostering relations? Cabral: Oh my gosh. Yeah (Stanley laughs). So when I was, one that I'm really proud of is that we--so when I first got on in September of last year, shortly after we had, we got--in the news, in the newsroom we get different airtime. And so we have, we had a 6:30 slot. And so we recruited and hired this young woman from Fresno, who's originally from Ohio, lived in L.A., went to Fresno, and then we hired her-her name's Alex Bell--to have her own show. Almost like David, World News, David Muir. And so we wanted to emulate that. And so we hired her, and I was part of her team. And part of her team was to really, we're launching the show from the ground up. We are building content, we are building visuals. So in that process, I was really able to talk about sort of ensuring that, you know, we're looking at this show and the image in a multicultural lens and in an inclusive lens, right? Because if-Stanley: Yeah Cabral: This is, this gives us a great opportunity to start something that we've never done before. And so, and part of my role too was to be part is, was to be part of that community engagement team with her. So, because I was there and she started in October, I just hit the ground running. So we started in, we started infusing her in the community, really just having her meet some of the community leaders, letting people know, “Hey, we have this show coming, it's launching in August. It's all community driven. It's about story, it's like storytelling and talking about--it's going beyond the headlines of what we're talking about.” And we're doing long segmenting stories about communities, neighborhoods, groups of individuals, advocacy or advocates in our community. And we were able to launch this. And I think what the the thing that I was able to really gauge as a success was once we built these relationships in Aug-- in July, right before the launch of our show in August I was tasked to do sort of like a--not, I wasn't tasked, but I was like, “Hey, you know, we've met with all these individuals. Why don't we start doing a tour of Alex Bell meet and greets. Let's have her, let's have the community members meet the team, meet her, really have them share some of their story ideas.” Because that's what we look for, right? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 5 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Stanley: Um-hmm. Cabral: Because, like story, we're always getting--we're getting emails constantly about story ideas, of what we could do, what we can cover, good, bad and the ugly. And so we did this. And so I worked with a lot of my community partners that I had fostered and built relationships with. And we were able to do six meet and greets throughout the, without--within the region of Sacramento. So, in Sac(ramento) and Stockton. We had seven meet and greets that were, that when we worked collaboratively, collaboratively with different nonprofit organizations and organizations to really have them. And probably at each event we had about a hundred people attend each of these events. And these are cons--these are constituents, these are our viewers, these are people in the community. People were excited to see this new face. And so, I was able to really create a a marketing campaign to really promote this event, these meet and greets. It's, they called (it), “Alex Bell Meet and Greets.” Because the show is “To the Point With Alex Bell.” So we were able to really home in on our community and lean on them to sort of share this information of the meet and greets. And it was great. (Connection issue; unintelligible). Stanley: Um-Hm. Oh, oh, oh, no. Pause recording now. There we go. Mute. Please continue. Sorry about that. Cabral: (Connection issue; unintelligible) We were able to gauge the success was-- (unintelligible) Stanley: Oh, man. Cabral: Yeah. But I mean, I think I sort of just sort of shared sort of what I did and the success it was for our meet and greets at, at the station. And I think it was through those relationships that I was able to build, it was a success. Stanley: Um-Hm. All right. Before we get into your experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center just one more question. What advice would you give someone starting out in the, in a field like community relations? Cabral: Gosh. I mean, I think you have to start, you have to--oh, that's a great question. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 6 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Stanley: (laughs) All good. Cabral: It has to be, it has to be authentic. I think, you know, in a space where you have to build relationships for--and there is a certain goal in mind, make sure the goal aligns with your values, first off, because I know there's a lot of jobs that are out there that you have to build relationships, whether it's because you have to meet a sales quota or because you're like intentionally and authentically needing a certain thing. Or wanting some sort of reciprocation. And in my situation, you know, the reciprocation is that in hopes that I build relationships, that we see that our community partners will feel welcomed and trusted to share with us the newsroom in, in a time if there ever is a need of some sort. Or they're wanting to help elevate a story or a story pitch. And that aligns with me. I think, you know, I know a lot of sales folks who have to build relationships, but they're building the relationships because they have to get something out of it. And I think that can sometimes be unauthentic or transactional. So--and I'm not saying that that's bad, because, you know, we have a lot of phenomenal sales folks. It just really depends on where your values lie in, in sort. And for me, it was like, “I can't do transactional.” Transactional will be part of a relationship at some point in time, but I can't have it be the sole thing there. It can't be the priority or the priority purpose of my role. So for me, this community piece, when they were just like, “We just need you to build relationships and build trust,” I, when I heard that, I was like, “Absolutely.” And then I, right after that, I asked, “Well, what is your mission and values of the organization? And what are you all trying to accomplish?” And when they shared with me all of those things, I said, okay, that aligns really well with who I am as an individual. So this work is going to seem, I wouldn't say effortless, but it's going to come off a little bit easier for me because this is what I do. This is how I live. I live through authentic connections. Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: Through community building. And so that's, I think that's why I've been able to be so successful with my role. And so to go back to your question, what I, the advice that I give is, you know, if-- just make sure whatever work that you do aligns with your values and that the mission aligns with your values as an individual. Stanley: I like it. I like it (laughs). Cabral: Yep. Stanley: Well, let's get into the meat of the interview. Could you describe the, what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 7 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Cabral: Yeah. Oh, the Cross-Cultural Center was such a little center. I have not been back since I graduated, but-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --it was a small room, right next to the coffee cart. I don't even know where that's at anymore. But it was a very, very, very small room. And you know, we had a red couch and we had-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --you know, it was just like a little space. And essentially what it was, it was a community space for a lot of our multi-ethnic student organizations. It was a place where we put programming together. We did events. And it was a sub-department of Student Life and Leadership, if you will. Stanley: Um-Hm, yeah. Cabral: At the time we were working, gosh, in between (2011) through (2018), we had--at the time there was some phenomenal directors (in Student Life and Leadership) who worked very close--who built relationships amongst each other, who then really set the example for relationship-building. And so I know Sara Sheikh was like, she was my mentor. I used to see her as a beautiful soul. And as an individual who really, who really, gave me the foundation of who I'm today. And then we had Lea Burgess-Carland, who was the director of the Women's Center, which is now the Gender Equity Center. And I believe there was Roger, who was Roger De Andreas, who was the current Pride (LGBTQA Pride Center) director. And so at the time, those were the only three identity-based centers. And so we sort of had named ourselves the Social Justice Centers. And at the time they were all just very small. We had phenomenal, phenomenal staffing, programming. We were, we all were very collaborative and really--in really educating our campus community about inclusivity of gender equity of LGBT and sexual orientation theory and things of that nature. And so, yeah, it was, I mean, again it was (a) phenomenal time. Those--during that time, it was when I met some of my best friends who are still now my friends. So yeah. So that's a little bit about what that center was when we first got there. Stanley: Well I love hearing about the old red couches (laughter). Been interviewing people, people-(Both talking) Cabral: --it was like the blue, it was like the Blues Clues couch, I swear. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 8 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Stanley: (laughs) I heard you say that Sara Sheikh was your mentor. Could you tell me more about her? I actually was going to ask about her. Cabral: Oh, Sara Sheikh, my gosh. Where do I start? Sara Sheikh, she is an absolute beautiful soul. I just-very welcoming, inclusive, meets you where you're at. And I think as a mentor, as someone who had changed their career 100% to get into education I think it's like, there's a saying where there's people in your life that you didn't know you needed until you, until after the fact. And I think Sara Sheikh was that individual, you know as somebody who was closeted, gay, you know at the time that I was working there, she was able to help me embrace who I was as an individual. And to work those challenges out for me, like I said earlier, (connection issue) educating students and doing training and facilitating training. But I was a student as well because I was, as I was learning and teaching, I was learning myself. And I think she, Sara just had this, ugh, I don't know this beautiful aura of like, this, I--it's so hard to explain (Stanley laughs). I, we, I talk to my friends about Sara, and we're just like, “Yo, we miss Sara,” because she's doing her own thing now with her family in Orange County. But it's like, what a beautiful soul she was and is, because (of) her intentionality and the way she taught things and the way she facilitated was just effortless. But I, we knew that either she al--she always had those strengths, or she learned. She learned that, but like how great it was for us to be able to be part of that journey for her and for her to teach us. Because again, when I talk about, you know, my way of facilitating. My way--my active listening skills, my way in approaching things in large group settings and talking about multiculturalism and diversity and equity and inclusion, I embody and sometimes say like, “What would Sara do?” Because essentially it's like she facilitated and had these things with such grace, and never have I met someone else like Sara, like before. I hope you get to interview her, or somebody gets to interview her on sort of the f-- the foundation of what she's left, because, you know, I know her. And those, and the three directors that I mentioned started this social justice, the Social Justice Retreat, which was just absolutely incredible. In, in, in, in, in the time. And, you know, people who attended needed these spaces, needed these awakenings to really, to explore who they were as individuals, who they were as allies, who they were in their current state at that time. So yeah. So that's a little bit about Sara. Stanley: Well, I love that. I think it's pretty, pretty funny that I've interviewed a few people so far (laughs), and they've also called her a beautiful soul and-Cabral: Aww Stanley: And also said, “What would Sarah do?” (Both laugh) And yeah, I didn't get to interview her, but one of my colleagues did and apparently was an incredible interview. So (laughs). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 9 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Cabral: Oh God, I would love to hear it. God, I miss her voice so much. Stanley : Well it'll be up in the archives. Once it's up-Cabral: Yes! Stanely: I'll be happy to send it to you. Yeah. Cabral: Oh my God, if you can, I would love that. Stanley: Perfect. Cabral: I would love it. Stanley: Anyway, continuing on, in what ways did your involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center help you expand and develop as a person? Cabral: Oh Gosh. In what ways? Stanley: Um-hm. Yes. Cabral: Geez. I mean, in every way possible. In any way imaginary, you know, as I think before I got into the Cross-Cultural Center, I was just living, I don't think I was living authentically. You know, I think--and again--being a closeted man as well-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --as gay Latino, I was, I didn't know where my future was going to go. And I think, you know, again, I didn't know I needed that space until I actually realized it. And once I was in it, or after the fact, and, you know I think being in that space, having Dilcie (Perez) giving me that opportunity to actually be Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 10 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral a peer educator too, was beneficial personally and professionally. And I was able to come out as an openly gay man, which is--now I'm happily married and been in my, my relationship with for eight years and. You know, we have a family. And so if--I guess I always question and think about, if I were not in this space, if I was not, if I didn't challenge myself to really dive deep into who I was as an individual, would I be where I'm at today? I don't know. Because, you know--and I was a late--I was a student, I wasn't your traditional quote unquote, “traditionally-aged college student.” You know, I went to community college for five years. I was already in my career in the finance industry. And so when I was at Cal State San Marcos, I was working with a lot of folks who had just graduated high school, but I was already in my mid-twenties. And so, you know, I was in my mid-twenties, didn't know who I was as--I knew who I was as individual, as an individual, but I wasn't able to live it authentically. And so being in this space, being in this role (at the Cross-Cultural Center), having mentors who are just like, “I am out and proud and this is who I am,” empowered me to be that. Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: And so for that I'm forever grateful. And which--and I think--which is why I made it a service of mine to live authentically, and to embrace, and to embrace who I am as an individual of my multiple identities that I have in hopes that I can too empower the youth, the--those new newly admitted college students or even adults, you know? And so, and I do have people time and time again, say like, “Wow, Gerardo you, I love how you just live authentically,” or I love how just authentic you are. And I was like, “That is, that is the only way you should live.” While I'm privileged to be able to live that way, you know, I know not everybody is. And so, it's, it's yeah. So I think to answer your question on how it's, how being in this space and in this role has changed me: I think it's changed me 100% of who I am today. And how--and the success of my career and personally and even the success within familial relationships, because I never had the tools of how to speak to my parents on who I was as an individual. How was I gonna come out to my parents and tell them? And, you know, through these facilitation courses, of training that I went through and these activism skills, I was able to come out to my parents in a way that, you know, I was able to help them understand too. And I gave them grace too, because they don't know any of sort of like the lingo that we talk about in academia (Stanley laughs), you know, because they don't have an (connection Issue; inaudible)-- they for me to talk about equity and belonging and inclusivity, like none of that. They don't understand any of that. So I really had to be able to formulate words to where I was able to meet them where they're at and tell them how I appreciate them accepting me for who I am and having those difficult conversations. So I think it just, and my experience has, has impacted every aspect of my life. Stanley: Well, that's fantastic. I'm glad that the CCC really helped you in that way. I guess on the, on the flip side, oh (laughs), on the flip side of that question I would, I would ask how did the Cross-Cultural Center help you develop as a professional? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 11 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Cabral: How did they how did the CCC-- (connection issue; inaudible) Stanley: CCC help you develop as a professional? Cabral: Great question. I mean as a professional, I was able to navigate certain spaces with--you know-at the end of the day, we were a department of Student Life and Leadership. There were processes, protocols in place that we needed to follow, and so (connection issue; audio cut)-- worked for other organizations and the finance industry. And so I knew protocol of like working, I knew expectations of the workplace. I knew the consequences or the repercussions if: should I not show up to work? Should I not turn in my timecard on time? Should I not follow procedures? I already knew what those, what those actions (connection Issue; inaudible). So I felt, you know, I took this job extremely seriously already. I think it just helped me more so--be more confident in having conversations regarding these topics of multicultural education and in the DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) space. Stanley: All right. Well so you said yeah, co-- just more confidence. Yeah. Cabral: Yeah, I would say so. Stanley: Hmm. We're, we're winding down here. Let me ask you, what would maybe be your favorite memory from the Cross-Cultural Center? Or just a memory, if you can't think of a specific one? Cabral: Oh (Stanley laughs). What was a favorite memory? Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: Oh my gosh (Stanley laughs). There's so many. And I would have to say, my experience at the Social Justice Summit. Stanley: Okay. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 12 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Cabral: You know, it was a weekend, a weekend retreat. And you know, you were committing to put yourself in a 100% vulnerable space. And I think for me it was great. You know, different types of life, like walks of life, walk into that room and be vulnerable and have those conversations and see the light bulbs. I saw the light bulbs myself, for myself. I saw them with others, and just the space that we were able to create that that they created of leaders, because I was a participant the first year, and then the next year I was a facilitator. And forever I (connection Issue; audio cut)-- we, we helped facilitate and work with young leaders who wanted to explore their identities and this, (connection Issue; audio cut)-I would say. Then the other one sort-- (connection Issue; unintelligible). Can you hear me? Stanley: Oh hi, sorry. It, it, it cut out a little, but I (both talking) heard, I heard mostly-Cabral: Oh yeah. Stanley: You said-- Cabral: Oh, yeah. Okay, cool. Stanley: Were, were you finished with your thought? I'm sorry about that. Cabral: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did. Stanley: Okay. And I'll wrap up the interview. I like to ask this one, this last question. What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces? Spaces like the Latin@/x Center or the Black Student Center, places like that? Cabral: Oh, gosh. I mean that's a hard (connection issue; inaudible) (question) for me to answer because I've seen the value of cross-cultural center spaces in various different campuses, and I've been part of those conversations as well at other campuses. But I also see the value of identity-specific centers and and some--the concern always comes up in these conversations at other institutions about, “Well, where does that lead to Cross-Culture Center?” Right? Because now that we've expanded into all these identity-based centers, what is now the purpose for the Cross-Culture Center? And to be completely honest, for me it's hard to answer because I'm just, I'm not entirely sure, because before we were a space where all identities and all ethnic groups were welcome then now that there are these spaces Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 13 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral specific to these ethnic groups, like I'm, I'm curious. And again, I leave that up to that--the folks in academia and student affairs folks, because again, I'm not saying that it should be, like we should, we should remove them. I'm just curious as to how--I'm excited to see how we--we, because I feel like I'm sort of in an academia space still, but like how academia or the university sees this: the (Cross-Cultural) Center moving forward in a time where there's now a need for these ethnic spaces. So I am not entirely sure. What I hope is that, you know we are like, in an ideal world, I would love for the Cross-Cultural Center to be its own division, and then have the ethnic centers be within the Cross-Cultural Center. You know, because, you know, we--and then have the work talk about sort of that intersectionality piece of it all, of, of--with the Pride Center, with the LGBT Center, with the Gender Equity Center and things of that nature, because I think they all coexist together. And they all intersect, but it's like, how do we make sure that we intentionally do programming? And that's what that's what happened. You know, back in--when we were there, our directors made it a point that we did programs and we had assigned teams. So, you know, one member from the CrossCultural Center, from the Women's Center, and from the Pride Center would work on one program, and we had to make sure that we were being intentional with intersecting those identities to include as many diverse individuals as possible. And looking at it through different lenses. You know, because we're like, just because we're (connection Issue; audio cut)-- So, like, we were always making sure that we're trying to like build those, those identities there. Stanley: Hm. All right. Well, yeah I ask that question to every interview(ee), and they do say a lot of similar things. The intentionality is what they always say. It's like they need to know what they're going to do with the center sort of thing. So thank you so much, Gerardo, for coming and I'll inter--, end the interview here. Cabral: Alright, Seth, thank you so much for your time and I look forward to, yeah, once you're done, please send, send that link over. I would love to listen to other folks. Stanley: (Laughs) I'm gonnna stop the recording here. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 14 2023-10-21 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cabral, Gerardo. Interview transcript, April 28, 2023. Description An account of the resource Gerardo Cabral is a California State University San Marcos alumnus. He graduated with his Bachelors of Business degree in 2011. Gerardo worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2011. In this interview, Cabral discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center was a space that cultivated and enriched self-identity. It provided not only students with a voice but Cabral to begin living his true authentic life. This interview was conducted in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM and generously funded by the Instructionally Related Activities Fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gerardo Cabral Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Geneva Martinot Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-28 Subject The topic of the resource Broadcast journalism California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center LGBTQ+ life Education, Higher Human rights Student success Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Sacramento (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) 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Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CabralGerardo_StanleySeth_2023-04-28_transcript Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience LGBTQIA+ experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/9da90704cc77e7e9c03910465dfda649.pdf 67d8cd755ed34dd9dac9c25137231b72 PDF Text Text DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 De Maria: Alright. My name is Michael De Maria. I am a graduate research assistant at Kellogg Library at CSU (California State University) San Marcos. And today I'm interviewing Daniela Carreon about her involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center as a student staff member and a student on campus at CSU San Marcos. So, Daniela first off, I just wanted you to tell me a little bit about your upbringing, your background. I wanted you to tell me about your community that you were brought-up in and a little bit about your childhood. Carreon: Okay. So, I grew up in Escondido, which is a very heavily populated Latino, Latinx community and an immigrant community. And so, sorry (laughs). So, yeah. But I went to school in Encinitas, and so Encinitas is probably about a thirty-minute drive, adjacent city. It's probably, yeah so it's a definitely more affluent and White community. And so, growing up in two cities, right, because I went to school in Encinitas but I was, my home life was in Escondido, I was often brought into like two different worlds. And not really knowing how to navigate either. And so yeah (laughs). De Maria: Perfect. And what would you describe those two worlds as in terms of characterization? Carreon: So, as far as characterization. Sorry (laughs). So, both worlds were definitely very different. As far as growing up in Escondido, I would characterize it as more low income, more people of color, more sense of community. And I'm thinking of community as far as like Latino-based, you know, community places. Specifically like, grocery stores or churches or just like where there's a higher population of Latinos. Whereas in Encinitas it was whiteness all throughout. There were pockets of like Latino people, but very, very small. And so I would characterize going to school in Encinitas as a lot more--I had to really integrate myself into the education system. I always had to behave. I also had to just, it almost felt like I was--I was often the only student of color, the only Latina Chicana Mexican woman, or a little girl in the class. And so, I think I felt the need to present myself to be the model for my community. So that is a lot of pressure for someone (laughs). And I felt the pressure through like my interactions with students, or even with my teachers, and like higher expectations from teachers who were Mexican. So yeah. De Maria: Got it. That is definitely really profound to deal with at a young age, for sure. So regarding your experience in those different communities, what led you to CSUSM (California State University San Marcos)? Carreon: What led me to CSUSM? Actually (I) did not wanna go to Cal State San Marcos (laughs). I also got into Sonoma State and I really wanted to, you know, leave. Because I felt like, okay, I've grown up in this vicinity. And actually my high school was very much--they never took us to Cal State San Marcos. I was an AVID (Advancement Via Individual Determination, college-readiness program) student for, from seventh grade to twelfth grade. They never took us to Cal State San Marcos. I had never even seen the campus until me and my mom drove by it when we, when I like accepted. But before that, I had never been on campus until like, I had to go for summer courses. So yeah, I did not wanna go to Cal State. I felt like it was going to be like high school because I'm going to class and I'm going home. So it was definitely like, how do I differentiate my experience from being just from high school? And so I was going to commit to Sonoma State, and I was trying to figure out my financial aid situation. And, you know I was gonna have to take out a student loan my first semester. (minor background noise) And I remember talking to the financial aid person and I just told her like, what is the population? I'm sorry if you can hear that (background noise). It was just like (laughs). De Maria: Totally fine. You're all good. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 Carreon: Yeah, so I remember asking her a question like, “What are the demographics of the students?” And during that time, I mean yeah the--you know we didn't have like TikTok, or Instagram wasn't as popularized. Snapchat was there, but not really. So there wasn't a lot of like social media digging that I could do based on the population for the students. I kind of just had to base it from what the website would say. And she told me, “You know a lot of the students here (at Sonoma State) are White, affluent, their, some of their parents own a lot of the wine countries.” And I was like, I don't really wanna be surrounded by whiteness or affluent, you know, people anymore. So, I decided to commit to San Marcos and it ended up being one of the best decisions I made. Not only financially, but I think just in personal growth, so. De Maria: Got it. And once you got to CSUSM, how did you become aware of and involved with the Cross-Cultural Center? Carreon: Yeah. So, in GEL (General Education for first-year students) like I don't remember what it stands for (laughs) but it's one of the introductory courses. I was an EOP (Education Opportunity Program) student as well, so I think that helped. But in the EOP class we had to, one of our assignments through GEL it was EOP (and) GEL together. We had to like, find a campus resource center or whatever and interview someone who worked there. So, I had emailed Floyd (Lai; Director of the Cross-Cultural Center, 2011-2023) and he doesn't remember, but I did interview him like my first semester. And I think that was like my first integration to the Cross-Cultural Center. And also, I was also involved in MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). So I think that was also one of the ways that I was able to be involved. And Floyd had reached out, I think to our MEChA co-chairs and for the peer mentoring program for summer 2015, to be a mentor to incoming freshmen. So, I did that. And then through that Lloyd, I think SLL, which was Student Life and Leadership which is now SLIC (Student Leadership & Involvement Center). And C3 or Cross-Cultural Center, like were together (laughs). So, they were hiring for the fall 2015 semester. So, I applied as social media slash administration. So yeah, (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. And could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you first started engaging with it and working for (inaudible interruption). Carreon: Yeah so, oh wait, when I first started to, like, what was it-De Maria: Like when you first started to engage and work for the org? Carreon: Yeah. When I first started to engage for the Cross-Cultural Center it was definitely I think more, we didn't have like specific programs as far as like there was no Critical Cougars or Defining Diaspora or Activist Lab (programs and spaces within the Cross-Cultural Center). I think it was more so our general interests. And I wasn't a programming person, so I didn't--I wasn't really involved in that. My role was just like social media and administration. And so, what I did through social media was kind of just posting things that fell along the mission of the Cross-Cultural Center and more like educational based images. And I think that was also just my own--I did it because I was also in this like political learning and unlearning through myself. So I think I used the Cross-Cultural Center as an outlet and also to educate others. De Maria: Yeah, for sure. And you've mentioned your involvement in MEChA already so, I wanted to just ask you what the relationships were like between on-campus organizations at that time. Especially the Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 Cross-Cultural Center's relationship to other student advocacy groups like MEChA or the Black Student Union. Carreon: Yeah, yeah. We did work, I think with also KA, Kamalyan Alliance (Filipino & Filipino-American student organization). I think a lot of it was supporting them in their own initiatives of like what they wanted to do for campus. So whether it was, like our high school conference, I remember Floyd would let us use the Cross-Cultural Center to like put all of our things (inside) before like campus events. Afterwards, this was probably like two or three years afterwards, campus events (Events and Conference Services) let us use like their stuff, or how to lock up our things. And like printing, I think also like just like some funding if possible. And also just being kind of like an advocate for when or how we would've planned things. I think during that time Floyd was like the Multicultural (Programs) Students, like Rep(resentative). So I think there was a good sense of like alliance or community I think now has switched over, or at least it's switched over I think later on (laughs). To like, I think someone in SLL. So, yeah. De Maria: I see. Very cool. And student staff have often been mentioned as sort of like a catalyst behind the Cross-Cultural Center's general success. So I just wanted to know what your relationship was like between you and your superiors? Carreon: Student staff, or do you mean like pro staff (professional non-student employees) OrDe Maria: Or both. Excuse me. Carreon: Oh, my relationship with pro staff I think was good (laughs). They made, I think I interacted the most with like Floyd and whoever was in that office next to him. So whether it was the graduate assistant, or later it was (professor) Shannon Nolan who, I don't remember her exact position. But she worked a lot with TLC, Tukwut Leadership Circle (CSUSM engagement program). And then, you know, we would cross over with like SLL professionals, but it was rare to have one-on-one meetings with them. I think when I was more so a graduate assistant, I worked more closely with the director of the Latino (Latin@/X) Center and the Black Student Center, and the Pride Center, I think that was more aligned (laughs). And, you know, working together looked like being on committees together, program development, also working with their graduate assistants. And then working at least with like student staff was always a relatively good experience. I think we always try to help each other out in whatever avenue. I think it was, I think programmers always need the most amount of help (laughs) especially with like setting up, taking down, like publicizing, practicing you know their PowerPoint (presentation program) or asking how they should outline it. So, I was a programmer for two years, so, afterwards a lot of incoming or newer programmers would come to me to see what I would do, or how I would structure things. So I think just more so looking for advice or validation. De Maria: Very cool. And one thing you've touched on multiple times is obviously the importance of those programs as a way that (the) Cross-Cultural Center really got out to students and kind of affected people's lives. Regarding those programs, did you have any involvement with the Cross-Cultural Summit as well as Café La Paz? Those are two programs which seem to have been coming up quite frequently in my previous interviews, so I—(Carreon interrupts; two speakers) Carreon: Yeah you said, you said Social Justice Summit (diversity and activism event at CSUSM)? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 3 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 De Maria: Yes. Carreon: Yes. Social Justice Summit. I went to, to the Social Justice Summit when I was a freshman. So, that was also I guess my introduction to Floyd (laughs). So that was like fall 2014. And then I think I was a facilitator fall 2016, and either 2019 or 2018. So I was a facilitator for like two different periods. I'd never experienced Café La Paz (laugh). De Maria: Okay. Got it. Cool. And what were some instances of activism that you observed from the Cross-Cultural Center during the time that you were there? And I know that you were, you know serving positions as both an undergraduate and a graduate assistant as well. Carreon: Mm-hmm. De Maria: But yeah, if you could just take me through some initiatives that you guys launched or maybe some moments of activism you felt were pretty memorable. Carreon: Mm-Hmm. Trying to think. So moments of activism. Well, I mean the Activist Lab was really a kickstart to our, us being intentional of like having activist programs. And I think that came from the rise of like the Black Lives Matter movement and just what was going on politically. Also with like DACA (Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals), Trump being (in) administration and like more and more people being involved or wanting to be involved in community. So, I know we had like a Know Your Rights (political advocacy presentation) session and I know we had different like avenues of how to be an activist, cause it doesn't always have to be like out in the streets. I think some of the other initiatives of activism, or at least like intentional activism that I would say, is during the covid pandemic there was, we couldn't do Social Justice Summit. And so it was like, when was this fall twenty, fall 2020? Yeah. ‘Cause I graduated Spring 2021. So, I remember during the fall semester I really wanted to do something called Social Justice Scholars (CSUSM undergraduate social justice program). So (laughs), it was, for me it was more of an intentional group of like eight to ten students. And we were going to have conversations that kind of delved in a little deeper. Like, topics like what does it mean to defund the police? What does abolition, abolition look like? What is an abolitionist framework? Conversation circling like transphobia and anti-Blackness. And for me I think those conversations gave, or that specific--like Social Justice Scholars, which I think still continues to today, provides students who want to be, who wanna just know more in a safe and brave environment. I never had, I didn't have--well I only did it for a semester (laughs) until I graduated. But I think it allows or gives students a space, and there was nothing else on campus on it during that time. And I think also the conversations that I wanted to talk about are very political in nature (laughs), just like any other program that I put on, a lot of them were very political. So, I think the Cross-Cultural Center steering that was very one political in nature, but also just very quote unquote ahead of its’ times because were-- conversations circling like, what does it mean to defund the police and what does abolition mean? And talking about anti-Blackness as global and white supremacy are things that sometimes are hidden or want to be hidden within academia, or/and especially student affairs (laughs). So, I think those are some of the things. But as far as other avenues of activism, would be just inviting more speakers who have an activist framework. And I think paying speakers obviously as well is within itself doing activist work. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 4 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 De Maria: Absolutely. And those programs sound absolutely incredible (laughs). So very cool that you were involved with those and got to experience them and see firsthand what kind of impact they had. And from there I just wanted to ask you what your favorite memory from the Cross-Cultural Center was? Carreon: Mmmm. My favorite memory? I have a couple. Do I have to choose one? De Maria: You could talk about it, you could talk about a couple. I don't mind. Carreon: Oh, okay (laughs). I think one of the favorite, one of my favorite, I had always told Floyd, we need more we need more like art (laughs) in the space. So I think definitely the mural that's now in the center. It took about almost, it took a long time to do (laughs), but it took about like maybe six months, a semester to really you know, paint everything, have it installed. So I think that was one of the favorite memories. And also having like my friends be a part of it. My friend is actually the one that's like hugging himself, (laughs) and he was never really involved in campus until he met me, so it's kind of funny to see now he's memorialized on the wall forever (laughs). I think one of my also favorite parts was doing Social Justice Scholars. I think it was also my last semester. I was writing my thesis. I think it was very like cathartic healing. Every two weeks we would meet with students and, you know I'm really glad that they were able to connect with us, and also collaborating with the Latino (Latin@/X) Center and the Gender Equity Center or the Women and Gender Equity Center. And like Alicia and Laura, because they also like worked, worked on workshops. And what else is my favorite memories? I think like the day-to-day stuff of hanging out with some of my student staff. Those were probably some of my say, good memories. Yeah, (laughs) De Maria: Very fun. And I wanted to go back to something that you mentioned earlier in the, in the interview regarding you kind of mentioned a political unlearning process that you were undertaking during the time that you were at the Cross-cultural Center and that the organization kind of helped you process your way through that. And basically find a sense of enlightenment about it. So I just wanted to ask about that once again, since you have mentioned putting on like political programs and kind of making politics sort of like a focal point of the conversation about social justice. But if you felt comfortable, I'd love to hear a little bit more about what that political unlearning process was like and specifically how the Cross-Cultural Center kind of helped you become aware of it and embark on that journey. Carreon: Yeah. I think my political process of unlearning started with the murder of Mike Brown. So, it was 2014 and I was an incoming freshman. And so, a lot of it was social media at that time, ‘cause I didn't work at the Cross-Cultural Center. So, it was like Twitter and Instagram and Tumblr where I was really in this unlearning phase. And even then I've become a lot more radical in my beliefs. But back then I was eighteen (laughs). So and I was, you know, I was learning. And so it was an adjustment. I think what the Cross-Cultural Center gave me was an outlet to have conversations with people. And I think it's funny because now I'm in my pro--my PhD program in sociology. And I remember always telling Floyd like, “I don't know if I wanna be a professor or if I wanna work like with youth.” Because I was also a middle school AVID tutor during some time I was working at the center. And I think my desire to have critical conversations and help people or advocate for people, listen to people differing opinions of topics is what makes me want to be a sociology professor. And some of my programs, they were all political. I don't think they had to do with like, well they had to do with politics, but it didn't center on politics or policy. I think the first program that I ever did was what it means to be American. But I'm also like, it's been so long (laughs). But I had programs having to do unpacking, like Beyonce's Lemonade Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 album or talking about Kendrick Lamar's album at that time and collaborating with the Black Student Center. I also had programs about gentrification and colonialism, and topics on racism and classism. I also had like the “in” in feminism, like what is like intersection, the intersectionality in feminism. Cause feminism is very, could be very White. So collaborating with like Pride (Center), and I remember I collaborated with the sociology professor at that time as well. So I think my unlearning through the center was topics that I just wanted to talk about (laughs) cause I had my own vested interest in them, but also, who else could I collaborate with? I think that was where the Cross-Cultural Center possibly got more view or more like, “Oh, they're collaborating with other people and like inviting professors and faculty to join us in conversations.” And/or other student organizations and student centers. So. De Maria: For sure. That's awesome. And next I wanted to shift a little bit and actually talk about your studies at CSUSM. I know that you're one of the first graduates of the Ethnic Studies program, so I was interested in hearing more about kind of like the early days of that program and ultimately, you know, how that influenced your current career track and what you're interested in studying. Carreon: Yeah. So I remember it was my EOP, name was Kyle, I think he's at Palomar (College in San Marcos, CA) now. Kyle Owens. Yeah. He, I didn't know what I wanted to do (laughs). I had so many vested interests. I remember I came in as a psych(ology) major and then I changed to poli sci (political science) ‘cause I really was in this unlearning process and I'm like, “I wanna work for the government and change things.” And quickly did I learn, no, I'm just kidding. (laughs). But yeah, quickly did I learn. And then I switched it again and then I was just kind of everywhere. And I remember Kyle Owens told me about like social sciences and how I can have like three degrees in one. And I was like, oh, okay. So my primary focus was sociology. And then my secondary fields are political science and psych. So I had to take a wide variety of classes. And I also decided to minor in Spanish ‘cause I passed the AP exam in high school and I was like, “Oh, I only, I only need four classes. Okay, cool.” And I think I just, I remember I took Dr. (Michelle) Holling communication 485, like Latino Chicano Representation in TV. And that really sparked my interest in wanting to go to grad school. And having her be part of my life and mentorship during that period, that was 2018, fall 2018. And she had told us like, that ethnic studies had been approved through the CSU Chancellor's Office, but it's gonna take a year for it to like, you know, be in place. And during that time I was supposed to graduate. I think it was, I was supposed to, oh no, that was fall 2017 when I took her class. And I was supposed to graduate fall 2018, but I just didn't feel, or spring 2018, and I didn't feel ready to graduate in four years. So that's when I picked up my minor in Spanish. And then I had met with her, and she gave me different courses that would qualify me to be like, that were going to be part of the courses for Ethnic Studies. So, I just started taking extra courses to fulfill the major that still hadn't existed (laughs). So I was taking like five classes. I took a class at Palomar because I had to take Ethnic Studies 101 and SOC (Sociology) 101 already had qualified or, you know fulfilled my other requirements. So it couldn't fulfill this one. So I had to go to Palomar and take Multicultural 101 (laughs) Multicultural Studies 101. And then I took, when did I graduate? Spring 2019. I took seven classes, and a grad course including that one. Just, just for fun (laughs). But really just to fulfill the, the major requirements. And I remember there was a period of time where once the major had been approved December 2018, I was told that I couldn't do it (laughs). Because I had reached, I couldn't declare the major because they said that I had passed the 120 credits or something like that. And I remember talking to Dr. Holling and other people in CHABSS (College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral & Social Sciences) was like, and I told them, “Well, I've been taking these classes because it fulfills the major” (laughs). So like, why can't--so they did some, some work in the backend and I was able to declare it I think within like two weeks. And then I graduated in the spring semester. So I wish I was--the only ethnic studies course I did take at Cal State San Marcos, like through the Ethnic Studies Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 major was Ethnic Studies 301. So I had already taken Ethnic Studies 101 as Multicultural Studies at Palomar, so I didn't have to take it again. But I wasn't able to take theory or I think at that time they had like three or four other integral, integral classes that students would take. But Dr. Holling was able to just sign off. So. De Maria: I see. So my next set of questions are going to be more about the impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on your life. So a little bit more abstract. But yeah, I just wanted to know how the Cross-Cultural Center ultimately helped you develop and express your cultural identity in the long run? Carreon: Hmm. Express my cultural identity in the long run, you mentioned? LikeDe Maria: Yeah. Carreon: I feel like for me, I've never been like super loud about my culture. I just kind of exist (laughs). I think the culture more so is being like outspoken and being, and like asking questions and asking critical questions and sometimes making people feel uncomfortable with my questions or my beliefs or ideas. So I think that's the legacy of like what the Cross-Cultural Center has provided me. And I've, I've gotten better. I remember Floyd always told me I'm not who I was before (laughs). And I think that's the culture that I still lead with, of just like being unapologetically myself. De Maria: Okay, I see. And regarding the Cross-Cultural Center as it is today, what role do you see it playing as it coexists with the expansion of other identity-specific student advocacy orgs? So, like as other organizations expand, I guess like what do you hope to see out of those relationships? What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing in those expansions? Carreon: Mm-Hmm. For me, I think the Cross-Cultural Center has tried to fill in the gaps of CSU’s, CSUSM’s like limitation in student centers. So specifically for like Asian Pacific Islander students, we have like the Defining Diaspora (CSUSM student workshops) and specific programs. But say like, you know, if the--if Cal State San Marcos approves for an Asian Pacific Islander Center, I think the role of the CrossCultural Center would shift obviously. But I feel like we have, we, or they have worked hard enough to make themselves a distinction between all the other centers, specifically with like Critical Cougars, the Activist Lab and Academe and Me. So, as of, I mean I haven't been at Cal State for two years. De Maria: Right. Yeah. Carreon: So, I don’t know what the other student centers are doing. But I think that the Cross-Cultural Center, because it's not specifically identity-based, can mold itself to different things. And it's both a, a challenge and an opportunity (laughs) because it's like, what are, what can, what else can we do or how can we do it? But it gives us the space to do it. So. De Maria: Got it. Carreon: I dunno if that answered your question, (laughs). De Maria: No, no it did (laughs). And regarding the CCC (Cross-Cultural Center) and its interaction with the student community, what communities on this, on CSUSM’s campus, do you feel are currently underrepresented? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 Carreon: I mean, indigenous students, I think they’re still less than 1% of CSUSMs, like total student population. I know that the California Indian Cultural Sovereignty Center, and the American Indian major and I think minor, correct me if I'm wrong, you know they're there. But from my understanding, it's they have and the, oh my gosh, AISA, American Indian Student Alliance. I don't know how like, if they're still present. But that was always a factor of how can we bring in conversations, or how can we connect with more indigenous scholars and students. And obviously the population of Black students is still probably, what, three percent? And also like what is Black faculty or administrators, what is the percentage of that? It’s probably lower. And I mean, I know that the DREAMer Resource Office (programs and services for undocumented students) is still on campus. I'm not sure if they're in the same location. I worked at the DREAMer Resource office for about a year and a half, and it was a--it was small (laughs). So, I think, you know, bigger spaces, I don't think Cal State San Marcos really anticipated for how much student centers, or the need for student centers. But yeah. De Maria: Yeah, absolutely. And next I wanted to talk about a little bit about your current career. So I know that you're currently pursuing a doctorate, and have some aspirations to go into education yourself. But did you wanna also talk about kind of what you hope to achieve in the social justice space with your platform and kind of what some of those aspirations are? Carreon: Yeah. So my career goal (laughs), I guess is, yeah, per- like finish my PhD. I do want to go back to the CSU system. I would love to go back to Southern California. If, you know, Cal State San Marcos is hiring at the time, I will be applying. Or even San Diego State or any other like, you know, nearby college. My research interests right now center among understanding and examining the experiences of Latina women undergoing cancer treatment. And I am really interested in this process of emotions and looking at like joy and grief. And I'm looking and I'm wanting to look at identity adjustments, then identity disruption, and identity development through the process of, of cancer. And then the component of familial and community care, and possibly death and dying. But I'm still working through like the nuances of my project. And so, what I hope to accomplish at least with that--and I don't know what my unit of analysis will be like, whether it's going to be like the cancer patient or if it's going to be more so like the family. But something that I've always wanted to do, and this, it's similar to my work that I did for my master's thesis. cause for my master's thesis, I looked at like the mothering experiences of single immigrant Latina mothers, and like their relationship with their children. And so I'm really into this aspect of like emotions and processing and trauma. I think my next, once I graduate and if I have a book contract, I think my book would really center on emotions and care and like healing from intergenerational trauma or death. So I think that's my component to social justice, especially tapping into this concept of joy. I think sometimes in movements, and this is what I've learned through my unlearning process through like Twitter, is that joy needs to be a constant presence in our lives. In constant oppression and marginalization and racism and homophobia and classism, we still have and will need space to practice joy. And joy doesn't always have to be like this grand thing. And that's kind of what I'm hoping to look at in my project with women undergoing cancer. It's like, did I wake up with no pain? Am I able to, you know, eat my favorite meal? Am I able to enjoy time with my family? I think I'm, I'm thinking of joy as more little things. And I think that's also what social justice movements are now more embracing. Specifically I know like the, the concept of Black joy and reading of articles of within people who are trans, and what does trans joy look like? So I think that's kind of possibly what the conversation will transition into, especially when we have been healing through so much. And I say “we” as like Transcribed by Aaron Williams 8 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 marginalized and minoritized communities, especially during the COVID Pandemic, the Black Lives Matter movement, and all these other things that are going on. And it's like, how do we still, how do we still practice joy? And I think maybe, you know, social media played a tool, especially like TikTok and people dancing on TikTok while there was a COVID pan- like while there was a pandemic and thousands of people were dying, and we still found moments to kind of laugh. So. De Maria: Super, super profound and incredible work it sounds like. I want to know what your biggest challenges are in terms of applying sort of like an academic quantifiable study to certain intense and qualitative topics like joy, death, love, and human experience. Carreon: Your question was, sorry, how do I-De Maria: How, how do you kind of apply a quantitative study to concepts like that and what are your biggest challenges of doing that? Carreon: Yeah. A quantitative study. Well currently I'm in a survey methods course (laughs). So, I am actually developing a survey to, it's a pre-interview survey just to get like demographic, demographics of my population and using it as a pilot study for my dissertation. But I do wanna ask questions obviously about emotions. And it's really hard, because I am a trained qualitative researcher. So one, I'm not a quant(itative) person. But it's also hard to quantify emotions. I feel like quant, quantitative research often strips the humanity and people's experiences, and just kind of diminishes them just to numbers (laughs). So it's sometimes hard to translate--or translate that I guess. But I know that numbers are important (laughs), right? It's how we get funding. It's how to make it palatable to larger audiences. And so, I'm still trying to figure that out (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. And I was just curious because obviously the role of data and statistics also plays a huge part in social justice itself and trying to understand, you know, quantifiably where injustices are taking place, or how those injustices are manifesting themselves. So, to me it felt like a very one-to-one comparison of using a quantitative study to quantify those emotions that you mentioned in those cancer patients. As well as how some researchers, you know, have to basically fit statistical models to qualitative issues in, you know, underserved communities and things like that. So, just wanted to explore that a little bit ‘cause it was super fascinating. But taking things back to the topic at hand and to kind of wrap up our interview, I just wanted to know what the most important lesson you've taken from your experience with the Cross-Cultural Center was, and kind of how it impacted you. Carreon: You said my most important, sorry? De Maria: Lesson. Carreon: My most important lesson? De Maria: That you've taken. Carreon: Probably to, pause before I speak (laughs). And to listen. Oftentimes I have learned that people who have very differing conservative you know, or even like radical opinions just kind of wanna be heard (laughs). Sometimes I am not the person to listen, but I can redirect them to someone who wants to listen. But I think my role within, obviously when I was a student, I mean a student worker there, I would Transcribed by Aaron Williams 9 2023-11-28 �DANIELA CARREON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-06 listen. I think, you know, my role now as just someone who would be visiting the center, I could walk away (laughs). But, and even then I can still walk away as, as like now, but also wanting to pursue, you know, a teaching career. It's going, I'm going to get a wide variety of students with different opinions of, of coming to understand sociology. And so, definitely listening and pausing before I speak. I think a tool that I kind of took from Floyd, he would always ask me, “How did you come to that solution?” Or, “What made you think of that? And avoiding the question of, “Why?” And just trying to better understand people. So. De Maria: Awesome. Well, I wanted to thank you for taking some time out today for this interview. I think this is gonna be a great resource for anyone for trying to learn more about the Cross-Cultural Center through the lens of someone who is actually there. So again, this information was indispensable, and I'm really excited to see where your career takes you. And you know, hopefully what you'll be doing for CSUSM in the future to kind of expand the center and hopefully take up even more responsibility for the school. Carreon: Yeah (laughs). De Maria: Awesome. Thanks, Daniela. Carreon: All right. Thank you. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2023-11-28 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Carreon, Daniela. Interview transcript, April 6, 2023. Description An account of the resource Daniela Carreon is alumna of California State University San Marcos, where she worked with the Cross-Cultural Center (CCC) and other student organizations such as MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Xicanx de Aztlan). In this interview, Daniela discusses her involvement with the CCC, campus changes, and her current work & goals as a sociology PhD student. This interview was conducted in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM and generously funded by the Instructionally Related Activities Fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daniela Carreon Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michael De Maria Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-06 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Kamalayan Alliance California State University San Marcos. Ethnic Studies California State University San Marcos. Events and Conference Services Civil rights Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán Student movements Psychic trauma Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Encinitas (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Daniela Carreon License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CarreonDaniela_DeMariaMichael_2023-04-06_transcript Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2caac1a8cfc3ca29c2de994f0935e8bb.pdf 86bdb8529b42a059d7ccb366fdf0c96c PDF Text Text April 26, 2023 Transcript Suzy Karasik: Good morning. My name is Suzy Karasik. Today is November 4th and I am interviewing Carol Graham, Master Gardener, native Californian, and so much that we will learn here in part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Carol, thank you for joining me today. (coughs) Carol Graham: (nods) My pleasure. Karasik: And, um, I wanted to just say briefly how I met Carol. I’m part of the EcoFest that we had here in Encinitas a couple of weeks ago. It’s an annual event that we do to educate people to everything involved with the ecology and the environment here in the county. And Carol had an incredible display (Carol gestures with her arms to display the posterboards on a table behind her) with the Master Gardeners, which we’ve been able to set up here and hopefully make it a little bit more readable. (Carol holds up a model of a fly, with a paper flyer attached and hanging below it) And Carol, let’s just start here. As we had discussed, let’s talk a little bit about where you born and your childhood and if any of that happened to prepare you for what was to come in your most interesting life and, um, how you’ve identified yourself over the years and your relationship with the county. So, you can start there. Graham: Well, I was born in North Claremont, the city of San Diego. And my mother was a very avid fruit tree gardener. And I really benefited because when my husband and I moved up here to Encinitas over forty years ago, it’s a similar microclimate to the one I grew up in, which means the fruit trees that I enjoyed—gardening at my mother’s knees, and fell in love with certain varieties of nectarines and other delicious fruits, loquats—I could grow those same varieties here which was nice. Karasik: Yes. Graham: And it was a very pleasant community to grow up in. Karasik: If I may ask, if you don’t mind, what year were you born, or— Graham: Oh. (chuckles) 1952. Karasik: Okay. Graham: Yes. So, I just recently celebrated—not that many months ago—my 70th birthday. Karasik: Yes! So, tell us a little bit about your school and what it was like here in the North County—well, you were actually down in San Diego— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —as you were growing up. Graham: I went to elementary school and junior high in the city of San Diego. 1 �Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, my father was a career Marine. So, we had three years in Virginia, and I graduated from high school in Virginia. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And then we came back to San Diego because the house had been rented—not sold. So, we were able to come back to the same garden, the same microclimate, which was great for the garden— Karasik: Yes. Graham: —the same fruit trees waiting for us— Karasik: Yes. Graham: —the ones that we had planted earlier. So, it was a very pleasant experience, very supportive of the interests that I continue to enjoy today. Karasik: So–so you graduated from high school in–in–out east, and— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —then you came back out here. What were your–What was your initial work, and— Graham: Well, I went to S.D.S.U. and earned a bachelor’s degree in Zoology— Karasik: Mmm. Graham: —because animals have always fascinated me, and that’s not just the animals many people first think of are the gigantic giraffe and interesting hippopotamus, and rhinoceros. But I’m also fascinated by what some people will refer to as the–the bugs (holds up a stuffed toy puppet ladybug, and chuckles). So, um— Karasik: Let’s talk about the bugs a little bit. Graham: Yeah. Well, I am very pleased to educate people on—well, most people recognize this as one of their favorite bugs in the whole garden, the lady beetle. (has now put on the puppet on her right hand and is holding it up in front of her) People call it the ladybug, but it’s more scientific to call it the lady beetle. Because actually the word “bug” has a derogatory reference. It comes from old English, meaning something unpleasant (makes a face, and gestures with her left hand to indicate something scattering away). So, lady beetle is the more appropriate, better name. And it’s interesting in that its larval stage looks creepy! (holds up another stuffed animal, which appears to be a larval stage representation of the lady beetle). So— Karasik: I did not know that! Graham: —the larval stage, as I tell people, “Yes, it looks like a creepy, six-legged, micro alligator.” So, it’s very important that we reach out to the public, as Master Gardeners, and inform people “when you see this in the garden, don’t assume it’s something bad.” (she shakes 2 �the larval-stage, stuffed animal) For instance, (turns to her right and looks at the posterboard behind her, first to one with the header “IPM” then points to the board with the header “Identify”) one of the first steps of Integrated Pest Manager—which is what I.P.M. stands for— is identify friend or foe. Because if you assume this is bad (holds up the larval stage stuffed toy) and as many people have told me as they come by our Master Gardener exhibit, they had no idea it was a lady beetle larva. They thought it was something bad ‘cuz it looks creepy! You know what they had told me they had done? They sprayed it with pesticide, or they squished it, or they taught their kids to be afraid of it, which was so sad. Especially since this (shakes the larval stage toy) can not do any good if you squish it! (laughs) Um, but I admit, yes, it looks creepy. And we also educate people that not all lady beetles look like this. (Shakes her right hand which has the mature lady beetle puppet on it) Not all of them are red. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: So, we have an assortment of photos that show different colors for the different species ‘cuz it–it’s great to benefit not from just one species of lady beetle (again shakes her puppeted right hand) but several. (Turns to put both of those stuffed toys down on the bench next to her, then holds up a stuffed toy that looks like a mosquito, which has a paper flyer hanging off of it.). And on the dark side, we also need to educate people about this character. Karasik: Ugh. Graham: Now, a Master Gardener friend of mine made both this educational model (again holds up the larval stage toy) and this (holds up mosquito toy). And she made them too pretty, in a way, because this looks, actually, quite attractive. And it is the creepy mosquito! And I think we’ve all been bitten by mosquitoes. And some people don’t realize but the mosquito actually has been given the horrific title of the most deadly animal we share the planet with, because the part it plays vectoring malaria, dengue, yellow fever. Even West Nile virus killed some of our residents here in San Diego County. It was about fifteen, seventeen years ago. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, it’s true that apparently everyone who died of West Nile virus in our county had pre-existing medical conditions or they would have survived. But it’s also true some of those people could be alive today if they hadn’t been bitten by infected mosquitoes. But unfortunately, 3the mosquito larvae are not easily identifiable for people who haven’t been introduced to them. And many of our neighbors are growing mosquito larvae in their bird baths and other watercontaining items, children’s toys, and buckets in the garden. Stagnant water is where the mother mosquito likes to lay her eggs. In a few days, those eggs hatch out to larvae. And when I have displayed larvae—‘cuz sometimes I’ll deliberately grow them to have them on exhibit, and I take the lid off the jar only after I make sure they’re just in the larval stage. No adults to fly out and bite people. And I will ask people as they come to the exhibit, “Do you know what this is?” and over half the adults have no idea it’s mosquito larvae, which is very disturbing, because they’re growing them possibly in their gardens. And when they see them, they’re not motivated to dump it out, ‘cuz they don’t know what it is. 3 �Karasik: This is so important, and so, uh, (Graham puts down the mosquito toy) so–so much of it is actually unknown to the public. I’m curious, if you wanted to just kind of go through these four stages, if you will. (Carol stands up and turns toward posterboards) And then we’ll talk more about how you even became to be a Master Gardener. But I don’t want to— Graham: Okay. Karasik: —uh, (Carol sits back down again) forget to look at a little bit more of your early days— Granham: Okay. Karasik: —so we’ll come back. Graham: (she turns toward the board that reads “IPM.”) Well, the first stage in Integrated Pest Management, as I said, is Identify—(points to the posterboard reading “Identify”) friends, and admittedly some of these friends do look creepy—(points to photographs under the subheading “Friends” on that posterboard) Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —and foes. (points to, and circles with her right-hand finger, various photographs under the subheading “Foes”). And here, kind of the star of the show, (circles the middle of the board, which has a collage of photos) indeed, we recognize the adult lady beetle (points to the photo of the lady beetle). I hardly ever see the eggs (points to a photo of lady beetle eggs) and I have my head in the garden a lot, so I’m surprised I don’t see them more often. But, at certain times of the year, I’ll see the larval stage, (points to a photo of a larval lady beetle) and as I said, I’ll admit it looks creepy like a six-legged micro alligator. And the pupal stage (points to a photo of a pupa of a lady beetle). And if, ideally, people would get this in high school or junior high school biology, it would be so helpful for the public health of our communities. And then of course you move on (stands up and points to the posterboard with the subheading “Understand”) to understand relationships, like the sooty mold, which is this black powdery (points to a photo of leaves with black mold on it) material you frequently find on some infected leaves (reads the text above the photos, indicating it with her left hand)—“grows on the honeydew, produced by sucking insects.” So, unfortunately, it’s not uncommon to have aphids or mealybugs or whiteflies or scale. And what goes in one end to their body as food—‘cuz they puncture the tender leaves and they’re sucking the sap—comes out the other end of their body, and instead of calling it like “aphid poop” it's called “honeydew.” Karasik: (chuckles) Graham: And this honeydew is a rich source of food for the growth, unfortunately, of ants which will protect these bad guys and sooty mold to grow. And here (points to a photo of ants) we see the ants will actually chase away the good guys who would eat some of these bad guys. But the ants are kind of protecting the bad guys because they’re eating— Karasik: That’s their sustenance. 4 �Graham: —the honeydew. Yeah. It’s kind of like we— Karasik: Yeah. Graham: —protect our dairy cattle from predators who might eat them, because we want to milk them and benefit from them. Karasik: Right, right. Graham: (then points to the text toward the bottom with her left hand) And understanding leads to multiple control approaches—biological, cultural, chemical, physical. There’s quite a diversity there. (She then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Assess,” points to the text with her left hand, and reads) And assess. Butterflies and moths are pollinators. Butterfly and moth larvae are consumers. Well, some bugs, I say they’re like children. They don’t always behave. They do some good and some bad (chuckles). And you have to kind of evaluate how it interacts in your garden. (points directly to the camera and whispers “The screen went dark. Is that a problem? Appears to wait for answer, and then says “okay,” and continues) You have to assess how they interact (using her left hand, she circles above a diagram showing the cycle of interaction of insects) in your garden, whether the bit of bad they do is less than the good they do. So, you can label them a good or a bad. Um, and of course, the green fruit beetle (points to the bottom of the board, to a photo of a beetle). Well, some people label it a pest, because it will attack, damage overripe soft fruits—peach, nectarines, plums, apricot—‘cuz it’s drawn to the fragrance. But, the grub, which admittedly looks creepy, is a fantastic decomposer. And it’s in all our compost piles, helping break things down. And it has a strict diet of eating rotting organic matter only. Although, it does look similar to the June Beetle grubs which eat live plant roots and tubers and corms. So, I try and teach people how to tell the difference— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: (then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Control” and points to a pyramid illustration) —and then the control aspects, from cultural which is considered benign approach; mechanical and physical—I mean, just physically pulling (with her left hand, mimics pulling off the insects from the photos on the “Assess” posterboard) the snails off your plants; biological—reloos–reducing–releasing—excuse me—lady beetles, or recognizing the lady beetle larvae that you do have so you don’t accidentally spray it with pesticide; to chemical (points to the top of the pyramid on “Control” posterboard). And all these different approaches are out there (waves her left hand above the pyramid) and they should be assessed and see how they fit into your garden. So, I think that (waves her left hand in front of all four posterboards, indicating totality) kind of reviews them all. Karasik: Pretty much covers that. Before we go back to your childhood, I’m going to pause here just for a minute (Graham sits back down and nods) Karasik: Okay, Carol. I think probably one of the most important aspects of this beautiful background that you chose to bring is the chemical aspect of the pest management. (Carol points to the pyramid on the “Control” posterboard) So, let’s talk a little bit about that and the toxicity because I’m thinking that our descendants that may be watching this oral history in the years to 5 �come will know a whole lot–a lot more about what would have been a more wise pest management than we do now. Graham: (again pointing at the posterboard) Well, the chemical aspect is considered the most toxic, and we want you to try the cultural, physical, and biological approaches first. And under the chemical (reads the text on the posterboard, which I’ve designated in quotations) “Use only in combination with the other controls.” It’s not like you have to use only these or only the chemical. You can use them together. And hopefully you won’t even have to go to the chemicals. Hopefully, you can control it by the other approaches. “Use a pest–pest specific non-broad-spectrum pesticide.” In other words, if you do feel you have to use a chemical pesticide, don’t spray the whole garden, and make sure that before you buy any pesticide you carefully read the container and that it mentions the specific pest you’re trying to address, ‘cuz there are pesticides out there that would be totally wasted if you bought this pesticide and it didn’t apply to this pest that you were trying to control. Karasik: Right. Graham: And yet you introduce something toxic into the environment unnecessarily—very undesirable, of course. “Select the least toxic pesticide to reduce potential risks. Always read and follow directions on the pesticide label. It’s the law.” And as I tell people, well, the first thing you read before you buy any pesticide is will it address your target, you also want to make sure is it okay to put on the plant you want to put it on, ‘cuz many of us are growing edibles, and some of the pesticides like insecticidal soap are okay to put on edibles—fruits and vegetables—and will mention that on the paper. Whereas there are other pesticides that you definitely wouldn’t want to put on your edibles, ‘cuz they can get soaked into the plant, and you wouldn’t want to be eating them when you’re eating the produce from that plant. Karasik: Right. I–I was curious if you feel that very many people are actually aware, for example, of the dangers of glyphosate and how that has pretty much penetrated the entire planet. And I’m wondering in the future, um, you know, what will–what will become of that. Do you try to educate specifically on that or does that bother you that it’s still sold and advertised and is just so deadly? Graham: Well, mostly, we’re not targeting any one pesticide. We want people to open their minds to p–basically trying chemical, physical, and biological approaches before they’d even consider the pesticide. So, we spend most of our time—if we can teach them about biological control, physical control, or cultural control, hopefully they’ll never even have to get to the point where they’re considering a chemical pesticide. Karasik: Right. Right. And when you–you go into schools and tell me a little bit about who–who all is your audience. Obviously, festivals like we had— Graham: Oh, the Encinitas EcoFest was very nice— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —attended. And, of course, we do have many Master Gardeners helping in school gardens. And of course, when you’re talking to the students and their supervisors—the teachers, 6 �the staff, chaperones, and parents—about how to properly grow this product that they’re going to pick from the garden and eat, you definitely want to mention that “okay, we’re not going to put this pesticide on here because we don’t have any pests on this. Isn’t it great?” That kind of thing. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Or “oh, we do have pests. We have snails, sliming up the trunk of our citrus tree.” But instead of using a pesticide, we can teach them, of course, much simpler approach, just pick it off. Karasik: How–huh–who knew! Graham: Or we can use a copper band, because snails don’t actually like to slime over copper. It tastes bad for them. So, if we teach them that, we are hopefully enlightening them so when they actually grow to adulthood and have their own yards and their own gardens, they will not first grab the chemical control approach. Karasik: Oh, uh, that’s really great. Well, let’s talk a little bit about, I think maybe, how your life tha–developed, how you met your husband. Graham: Okay. Karasik: And, um, let’s–let’s hear about that. Graham: Well, I was attending San Diego State University, working on my Bachelor of Science in Zoology degree, and my husband, actually, had graduated from there and he was the teaching aide for the lab class in one of the biology classes. So, that’s how I met him, which is interesting. He was in marine biology which was kind of far away from my backyard biology, but still a biologist. And within a year of completing my degree, we were both working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One, in that the Nuclear Generating Station would shut down, I believe it was like every eight weeks, and they would heat-treat and chemical-treat the water intake system, because they had a large pipe—I think it was, like, twelve-foot diameter or something—and it was sucking in ocean water which was cooling some of the rest of the system at the nuclear power plant. But you’re sucking in water from the ocean, so you’re sucking in barnacles and polychaetas and other biophaline. They settle on the pipe and they grow. And this of course not only reduces the diameter of the water intake flow, but also when you’re treating, you might end up with some of these clogs of biophaline getting sucked in and causing problems. So, every, I think it was eight weeks, but don’t quote me on that, I think they were shutting the plant down to chemically treat and heat treat to kill the biophaline so it didn’t keep growing. Unfortunately, every time they shut the plant down, I believe I was told it was $10,000 more an hour for the energy company to buy energy to supply us than it was making the energy at San Onofre. And people really didn’t relate to this because they’d flip the lights on and the switch would come on because the power company was being responsible and making sure the power was there, even though it was costing more. But people were, of course, ending up having to pay a bit more, because it was more expensive when it was shut down. Now, as a biologist, it seemed pretty obvious that in the cold of the winter, the biophaline wasn’t growing as fast. And why were we shutting down the power plant every eight weeks, year-round, regardless of the time of the year. So, on site, I like to joke, I was basically locked into this research trailer, and I was measuring 7 �the biophaline on these research plates, so identifying which quadrat on which plate, and what was the diameter of that barnacle, and this polychaete, and that barnacle. And we measured them, for a year, and we were able to show people the hard scientific evidence that things were growing slower in the cold winter waters. And they didn’t have to shut the plant down as often. So, in the end, after we generated–processed all the data, etc., indeed they considered this quite a successful study. So, they weren’t shutting the plant down every week–eight weeks in the winter, because they realized things weren’t growing as fast, as far as the biophaline. So, everybody in the long run saved money, even the cost of the research, which seemed quite expensive at the time although now that the quanti–the money for that research project doesn’t seem quite as expensive as it was decades ago. But they more than saved, because of the change they could do in running the plant. Karasik: I’m curious, too, because you didn’t have computers back then. Or did you have s— Graham: It was much slower. Karasik: Yeah. You did have some large, like, big equipment that did do some processing. Graham: I’ve talked about after the year of being locked into the research trailer on site of San Onofre, I was locked for a year (chuckles) into the office to transfer the data. Whereas, if we’d had more sophisticated computers back then, it would have been much faster. Karasik: Right. Now, where was your husband working at the–at San Onofre. Graham: Well, he was the lead investigator, so we were locked into the same trailer. Karasik: Oh, that was nice! (chuckles) Graham: Yes. Karasik: I’m curi— Graham: There were three of us in the trailer. Karasik: Right. I’m curious, too, because I think it’s important from a–a women’s perspective. Did you feel any sense of a gender discrimination, or were women respected? Graham: No. I was given full respect. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, because it didn’t matter what my gender was. I was still going to be locked into that research trailer. ‘Cuz it’s–it was San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station. So, basically, you went to the main entrance. You were evaluated, basically. They also threw the dice and every three or four or six people would be body-searched, (chuckles) physically patted down— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —going in. And this was before we really thought of terrorist activities much. And then we had to walk directly to the research trailer. And even at lunch we didn’t leave the research 8 �trailer. We would bring our lunches in and stay in that trailer until the end of the day, research day. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And we walked right out. But I never felt— Karasik: And was your pay equal? Graham: Yes. Mm-hmm. Karasik: Oh, that’s—I’m really happy to hear that. Graham: I mean, not necessarily equal to my husband, because he was the lead investigator. Karasik: Correct. Graham: But equal to the other party, who happened to be a guy, in the research trailer doing the same work I was doing. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Well, I’m glad to hear that. And it must have also really been nice to work with your husband and be able to share your knowledge and excitement about the job. That must have been–been really great. Graham: Well, he was a marine biologist, so he was quite into it. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, I wasn’t as into the organisms, because I was more terrestrial biologist, of course. Karasik: Right. Graham: Backyard gardening, etc. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: But I did appreciate the fact that this was a–basically a clean form of energy, compared to burning coal. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And, um— Karasik: And how do you feel about that now? Not that we have to go into a huge nuclear discussion. Graham: Well, now it’s shut down. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And of course, the–the complication is dealing with the remnants, the radioactive remnants. Karasik: Yes. 9 �Graham: And I’d like to see the country go more and more into clean energy—but nuclear was considered clean— Karasik: Right. Graham: —and weed ourself away from the energy sources that are not considered good for the environment. Karasik: You know, that reminds me. At the EcoFest, there was another booth that passed out quite a bit of information about the San Onofre situation and what we need to know as far as how close some of those storage tanks are to water sources and other things like that. Do you—is that a concern for you at all? Or do you think the public is aware of that? Graham: I think they’re doing a good job dealing with that. I would eventually like to see that material moved. For decades now, they’ve talked about moving it to a—I’ve forgotten the exact location. Karasik: There’s a place in Nevada, I know. Graham: Yeah. I don’t know exactly where in Nevada, but— Karasik: And then, of course, there’s the NIMBY—Not In My Backyard. Graham: Yes. Karasik: And then the people in Nevada were like “Well, you know, we don’t want it here.” So, I think this is an interesting discussion that in decades to come when people come back and look at this and will see what–what’s been done that’s much more safe, and–and won’t that–won’t that be great, hopefully. Graham: But, I’m sure glad we weren’t burning more— Karasik: Yes. Graham: —coal at the time to generate that energy— Karasik: Exactly. Graham: —when we were using. Karasik: And that–and that’s still an issue. So, then, tell me a little bit about either how San Onofre ended. You had a–a–I know you have one son that you had mentioned to me. So, tell me a little bit about your family and tell me about your–your parents and your husband’s parents, and where they came from and, you know, how your lives developed here in North County. Graham: Oh. Well, my husband and I moved to Encinitas over forty years ago. And, because it was relatively close to where the Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility was, where I was staying in the office for a year and processing the data from San Onofre. And my parents still lived in San Diego and my in-laws also lived in San Diego. So, it was smart to live on the Encinitas, south of where we went to work, because that was closer to go and visit them, which 10 �we frequently did. And my son—the family joke is “What does the only child of two biologists go into study-wise and stay in science, but get as far away philosophically and geographically from any of the biological studies as possible?” Astrophysics! (chuckles) So he got his–actually, his PhD finally. He started with his bachelor’s at Berkeley, and then wan–went to on get his Ph.D. at a–a—what is that, in Maryland, the institution?— Karasik: In Annapolis, or?— Graham: People think first of the medical aspect. Karasik: Right. Mm, we’ll come back to that. Graham: He’s going to criticize me for not remembering where he got his PhD. Karasik: Mmm. Graham: Anyway. And he had some research in astrophysics. Karasik: Not John Hopkins? [sic] Graham: John Hopkins, [sic] yes. I’m sorry. Karasik: Johns Hopkins. Okay, great. Graham: I’m going to have to apologize for a minute, not remembering, John Hopkins. [sic] Karasik: That’s alright. Yeah. Graham: He got his PhD at John Hopkins. [sic] Yes. Karasik: Yes. Prestigious. Yes. Graham: Yes. Karasik: So, you had just the one son? Graham: Just the one son. Karasik: Okay. So, tell me a little bit about where your parents came from, um, you know, what generation you are. Did they come directly to California? Do you know? ‘Cuz a lot of us don’t really know where our ancestors came from, other than immediate. How much do you know about both yours and your husband’s? Graham: Okay, my mother was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota. My father was born in Ohio. Now, I believe, possibly, the previous generation had come from Ireland and England and Germany. My in-laws, my mother-in-law was born in, I think, Kansas City, Missouri, which is, you know, Kansas City but it’s in Missouri, but I guess it’s a city that’s— Karasik: They’re sister cities on the border. Graham: Yes. Right across the river from each other. Karasik: Mm-hmm. 11 �Graham: And my father-in-law was born in Kirkcaldy, Scotland. Karasik: Mmm! So he immigrated here and— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —with his wife? Do you know? Graham: No. Karasik: Or did he meet her here? Graham: He married her here. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Yes. Karasik: And then I guess they all decided to come out to California? Do you know anything about that journey? Graham: Um, my father-in-law was working, I believe, in the aircraft industry, which was quite active at one time in San Diego. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Manufacturing. And my father was a career Marine, and was stationed out here at Camp Pendleton and— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —some other facilities in southern California. Karasik: There’s a lot of history from Camp Pendleton that will be in our Oral History. Graham: Oh! Good. Karasik: Yeah. So, I guess probably, let’s switch then a little bit. When we look at your life’s work, uh, did–did you want to say more about after you didn’t work for San Onofre anymore, did you get more involved tha—How did you get involved with the Master Gardeners? Let’s go there. Graham: Oh, well, um, we had my son. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And my neighbors warned me that, “If you’re looking for infant childcare, you can’t depend on the local teenagers, if you want to do a routine.” And I wanted to apply to Master Gardeners, which was going to be, I think, seventeen consecutive Tuesdays, and you were expected to attend every one, ideally. And I was wondering, “Okay.” So I asked my mother, “I would like to go through this Master Gardener program which is put on through the University of California Cooperative Extension and become a Master Gardener volunteer, which is dedicated 12 �to disseminating information for a successful and environmentally responsible home gardening. But your infant grandson would need care every Tuesday for like seventeen consecutive Tuesdays.” And she said yes. So, I’m very beholden to my mother because— Karasik: Thank you, mother! Graham: Yes. Karasik: Yes. Graham: Because otherwise I’m not sure where I could have dropped him off for just— Karasik: Right. And what year would that have been? Graham: He was born in 1982. Karasik: Mmm, so you had— Graham: Then it was in 1983 that I started the Master Gardener program. Karasik: Oh. Wonderful. Graham: He was just a year old. Karasik: Okay. So, how would you say that work has changed over the years for you, and just tell me more about—I–I–I think, in these interviews we want genera–future generations that come back and watch this and want to learn about the community and how the peoples lives were affected (Carol points to something off camera), what you’d—(Carol looks again off camera and starts to chuckle) what you would want them to know. Graham: Well, Encinitas is a great community to live in. The microclimate is fantastic for people who like to grow a diversity of fruit. Although before you grow any fruit trees, no matter where you’re living, always check that the microclimate is adapted. I frequently, at the Master Gardener exhibit, drag out the Sunset Western Garden book and ask people, “Do you have this?” And if you don’t, you can check it out at any good library and tell them that this book divides the western portion of the United States into twenty-four different micro zones. And I open the map and we can usually identify where they’re living, and at least before they go away, I can tell them, “Oh, you open up Sunset Garden book, and you want to look at what apple varieties grow in your microclimate, look for this number on the microclimate.” Because, unfortunately, as a Master Gardener I’ve had people tell me they have purchased certain fruit trees, certain varieties, and I ask, “Oh, where are you gardening?” And I have to tell them, “That variety is not adapted to your microclimate. It’s not going to thrive.” And I even had a personal situation. Years ago, there was a new variety of—I’ve forgotten whether it was, um, a peach or a nectarine—and it came out—it was supposed to be okay for zone 24, close to the coast in southern California. And the next year, after I’d bought it that year, the next year they said “Sorry. We made a mistake. It’s further inland that it’s adapted to.” So, I dug up the tree, had a fellow Master Gardener who lived further inland and said “Would you like 13 �this tree? Because I bought this under the belief that it was going to thrive, and now they’ve changed what they’ve recommended.” Karasik: Right. Graham: So, it is critical to do your research first to be successful in gardening. And we don’t want you wasting water, putting water on varieties of plants that are not adapted to your microclimate, whether it’s fruit trees or just ornamentals. Karasik: That is so important. So— Graham: Especially with water being super critical now. Karasik: Absolutely, which will be another interesting aspect to look at when future generations, uh—what that’s going to be like. Do you—So, was your husband involved in the Master Gardeners too? Or then did you—you didn’t work, uh, when you had your son. Graham: Right. Karasik: And then what–what did he do? (Carol looks puzzled at the question) What was his work? Did he st— Graham: My–my husband’s work? Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Well, he continued to work for the Lockheed Marine Biological Research. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, now he wasn’t involved directly in Master Gardeners, but I must say that, uh, there were frequently times when I would have a long day at a Master Gardener exhibit, um, like you experienced at the Encinitas EcoFest recently, and I’d be driving home and very often he had the garage door open for me, ‘cuz I had told him when I went off, I hoped to be back in this time period, and the garage door was opened. I could drive right in. And he was a great cook, so it was wonderful because there was dinner waiting for me all ready and he really spoiled me. (chuckles) So— Karasik: That’s so wonderful. Graham: —not directly in Master Gardeners but he did support me to a high degree in Master Gardener. Karasik: Yeah. Behind ever—huh—there’s a saying: “Behind every great man is an exhausted woman.” (both she and Carol chuckle) Graham: Right. 14 �Karasik: And so I think we could probably— Graham: (nodding her head) Yes. Karasik: —turn that around. Um, what would you say some–are some of your greatest accompish–accomplishments in your life? Graham: Well, reaching out to so many people at Master Gardeners has made me really feel good in that, as I say, I want people, ideally, to have at least a little bit of a–an edible garden. So when their kids come around and the kids have the opportunity as young gardeners to pick that lovely tomato or bell pepper (gestures as if picking something with her right hand) or maybe it’s a fruit—a peach or nectarine—and eat it and say, “Mmm, really good,” that they directly understand where their food comes from. Karasik: (whispers) Yes. Graham: Because, while some of our food comes from the ocean and the rivers and the lakes, so much of it comes from the good earth. And children who grow up picking the stuff from their garden, I think, are going to realize that and makes a connection and be far less apt to pollute or litter. ‘Cuz they understand why would you want to put pollution or litter on the ground. That’s where your food comes from! Karasik: Exactly. Do you feel like you’ve been successful in educating hopefully thousands of people, because there is a lot of concern now about our food sources? And I myself just recently got a tower garden because I want to be able to grow my own food and it seems like we might be moving more to that. Um, you know, I don’t know if we want to get into it, but we may just want to mention because of the—being a–a–an oral history, you know, monocropping and how all the large corporations have taken over the farming. And so is this—Do you feel like you’ve had a little place in there where you’ve been able to— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —educate. Graham: And also sharing with people the experience. Well, there are some peaches and nectarines I’ve enjoyed purchasing in the market, but none of them have the fantastic flavor that my mother and I used to grow and the Panamint nectarine—that’s the one we really adore. And some people love the Babcock peach, but that’s sweet-on-sweet. And my personal taste buds like the sweet with tang, which the Panamint lives up to. So, you can customize better your favorites by growing them. And of course, the macadamia! Well, the macadamia nut—what is that— $12.99 to $19.99 a pound for the nuts in the market when you buy them. Well, you can grow them yourself. They’re easy to grow, although heads up! (points her left pointer finger into the air). I want to alert everybody. They are really a lot of work to crack, even if you buy the specific macadamia cracker which I bought. But so I try to educate people as to this and— Karasik: Mm-hmm. 15 �Graham: ‘Cuz the macadamia tree was my husband’s, um—I don’t know if it was his birthday, or his Christmas present the first year after we moved in. He wanted a macadamia. Karasik: Nice. Well, I’m definitely going to be coming to you, because even me being over in the far east side of North County, that is going to be different. And I’m very excited to learn more about what you think would be best for me to plant, primarily just for me to consume. Graham: Mm-hmm. Good. Karasik: That’s my—And also, did you want to talk a little bit about all the different flowers that are edibles that people don’t know about, different fl–like nasturtians [sic], for example. Graham: I’m really not educated on that aspect. My mother wasn’t into edible flowers, and I haven’t gone into it because I’ve been so enamored of the–the fruits, mais–mostly tree fruits. Karasik: Sure, yeah. Pe— Graham: And–and thornless blackberries! Karasik: Oh! Graham: Yes, ‘cuz I grew up with the Olallie blackberry which mother had which was delicious but boy does that have thorns! (holds up both her hands, fingers spread wide to emphasize prickliness of thorns) Karasik: Really! Graham: Decades of research and now we have thornless varieties out there. Karasik: Oh, I didn’t know that! Graham: So, yes. Triple crown. Karasik: It’ll–it’ll be really interesting for botanists, for example, who might be–get to hear these–this interview, in particular, and see how things have changed. I mean, there is certainly the concern that California may become a desert. And we do definitely have water issues right now. Does that, uh, take up some of your time of concern? Graham: It is concerning. However, I tell people, “Well, um, hopefully when we get off this third year of really severe drought here in San Diego County and people actually start to feel they can put plants in the ground again, well, instead of putting ornamentals, why not put some edibles? Wouldn’t that be a better use of the water?” And as I said you can also customize, so you can put your–your edible in the variety that you couldn’t even find in the market. Karasik: Right. Like sunchokes, Jerusalem artichokes. Those are hard to find, and very nutritious— Graham: Yeah. Karasik: —for example. Well, we could certainly talk about gardening (both Graham and Karasik chuckle). And that’s–and that was a lot of my reason for wanting to interview you, 16 �because I think this will be very interesting to, um, our descendants. I guess, uh, if there’s anymore that you’d like to tell about what you–what like what changes you would like to see for future generations, and if you had a chance to talk to some of these future generations, not just around Master Gardening but just about life in general and what you’ve learned over the years, what–what you think is most important that, uh— Graham: Well, continuing on some of the issues that we mentioned—less lawn, and more drought tolerant or edibles. Um, now there are some people who have a legitimate desire to have a lawn. They have young kids who do want to play on it. But that doesn’t mean they have to have a lawn both front and the back. And, um, after a certain length of time, maybe they want to take the lawn out because their kids are no longer playing on it— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And cracking open the reference books, even good old Sunset Western Garden book. And it has a plant finder section. And one of the things that it addresses there are low water use plants. Karasik: Drought tolerant. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Yes. Graham: As well as delving through the various edibles— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —making sure you select the right variety for your microclimate, so you’re successful and don’t waste water on a variety that was doomed from the start. Karasik: Yeah. Hmm, well, we’ve just covered that so well. I think, more than—it sounds like you’ve had a wonderful life and, of course, everything’s not perfect. There is a question here. What are your regrets? Or what would you do over if you could. Did you want to speak to that by chance? Or— Graham: Well, I regret my husband passed away. My husband died. Karasik: Yes. If you want to— Graham: And I didn’t appreciate enough all the great cooking he used to do. Um, so now I’m spending a whole lot more time from going to the grocery store and buying the food and prepping the food and thinking ahead, “Okay, I have this many drumsticks. Am I going to eat chicken this many nights, or am I going to eat some of this, and what’s in the freezer, and how much time it takes.” ‘Cuz I’ve a terribly neglected yard. But I am enjoying the social aspect of going out for Master Gardener exhibits. Karasik: Yes. Graham: Especially since my husband is gone now. 17 �Karasik: Right. Graham: So— Karasik: And it hasn’t been that long, so—I know that, um, my condolences and I know how that is. We–we all have to accept that part of life. And— Graham: Mm-hmm. I’m grateful that he did have a good quality of life up until the very end. Karasik: Yes. And I think, too, that again that’s a lot why this oral history project is so important. Because we don’t realize what interesting lives people have had. And it doesn’t get documented. So, we certainly have more time. Um, here’s a couple of questions here around community that might–might be interesting. It says “In what w–ways is your neighborhood special or has it been unique or what are some of the favorite places in your community, and how has–how has this area changed since you moved here? And that’s— Graham: Yeah. Karasik: ―a big one. Graham: When my husband and I first moved here, we didn’t even buy groceries in Encinitas because there were very few grocery stores, you know. This was over forty-five years ago. And there was a grocery store we’d go right past when we were leaving that place of work. So, it made more sense to stop there, but it wasn’t in Encinitas. And of course, I like to spend my consumer dollars in my own community. And now we have over ten grocery stores!! I mean, in an hour—excuse me, in a mile and a half, I can walk to four different grocery stores in my community. And frequently I am walking because it’s checking off my exercise for the day and checking off my eco-point for the day, ‘cuz I’m not driving my vehicle, um, and I enjoy it! And Encinitas allows me to do this because of all the grocery stores they have, which forty-five years ago— Karasik: And they’re some of the finest–some of the finest grocery stores. Graham: Nice diversity. Karasik: Not the least expensive, by any means, but definitely some of the highest quality and the largest diversity of what is offered. Graham: Yes. And we have farmer’s markets. Karasik: We do. Graham: Two of them in Encinitas. Karasik: Yeah. Let’s talk–let’s talk a little bit about those. Do you get to know any of those farmers? Or— Graham: I actually—way back when, was it Harry Stone? Don’t quote me.—who founded the first farmer’s market in San Diego County up in Vista. He was a member of the California Rare 18 �Fruit Growers. And I’ve been an avid member of the California Rare Fruit Growers for decades. And the idea took off and it was great. Karasik: You know, another interview that I did, I learned that the–there is a big difference, obviously, between an egg farm, a truck farm, and a—are you familiar with that? So, the truck farm is the vegetables that you would then truck to the market. And then obviously the egg farm and the chickens, because Cal State San Marcos that was a huge egg farm. And actually, on the way over here you were telling me there was a wonderful nursery here that has now been— Graham: Sunshine Gardens Nursery is now closed, and it was a very nice nursery for I don’t know how many decades here. Karasik: Mm-hmm. And now it’s–it’s–they’re making room for housing because we need that, and–and I think all the more reason. We have community gardens here. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Did you want to talk a little bit about that? Graham: I think it’s wonderful we have a community garden, quite close to the Heritage Museum here in Encinitas. And there are people who live in condominiums or apartments and they don’t have a yard to put a garden. So, community garden gives them wonderful opportunity. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, now, I do want to encourage people, even if they don’t have a yard, to consider possibly growing—we used to call it pot culture, but now that gives you the wrong impression— container gardening! (laughs) Karasik: Right. Graham: Yes. For instance, you can grow a nice return of blackberries, pick the thornless varieties in a fifteen-gallon pot, fifteen-gallon black plastic pot. Or you can put a more decorative pot if you’d like and make it more decorative, and you can put it on your balcony perhaps on your condominium or apartment. Mind that you give it full sun, etc. But, even without having a yard, there are some edibles you can grow if you research things carefully. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Have you found that people in your neighborhood come to you and ask you for your advice? Or how do you—(both she and Graham chuckle) I think I’m going to be asking you for some advice, for sure. Graham: Well, this was an interesting first four months in the year 2022. I captured six gophers. Now only one of them in my yard. I’m grateful for it was only one in my yard. But the other five were in three different neighbors’ yards. And I was labeled the gopher getter. I’ve captured gophers in other yards previous years too, but this was an especially active first four months of the year, for some reason. 19 �Karasik: Do you think—and I might even have heard somewhere—do you think that the drought had a lot to do with that, that they might even be seeking water or food, or are–are they—maybe they’ve increased their offspring. Do we know why? Graham: I don’t think so. I didn’t hear anything connecting those variables. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: It was just a— Karasik: And then where do you take ‘em? When you catch them. Graham: Well, there are no have-a-heart traps for gophers. You realize this is–(makes a gesture with her right hand of cutting off her head and lets out a scraping sound) these are kill traps. Karasik: Oh. Graham: Because the gopher is not a wanted critter to release in a wild area. No. So, the traps you’d use are kill traps for gophers. Karasik: Hmm. Unfortunate, but necessary. Graham: Mm-hmm. Because remember if you don’t deal with it early, the pest note that University of California Cooperative Extension puts out on gophers, I believe it says, “In irrigated areas, like our gardens, gophers can have up to three litters a year.” And I believe they said the number in the litter can vary from like five to seven. So, that’s a pretty horrific number of offspring they could produce in a year, if you don’t deal with them quickly. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And I think it was this year I was given the gopher getter title, because the one party I trapped a gopher successfully was just put the trap in one day and the next day I had it. And she happened to comment to her neighbor across the street, and he had a gopher, so he contacted me. And there were these three neighbors fairly close to each other on an adjacent street, that— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Graham: And the first four months of the year that—bing–bing–bing. Karasik: Hmm. Um, going back to—you’ve mentioned a couple of times. So it’s U.C. California San Diego, because when I tried to contact you, there is a division there. Do you want to tell us a little bit how that’s set up, ‘cuz I know you’re kind of under their umbrella. And— Graham: Well, the Master Gardener program is a volunteer branch of the University of California Cooperative Extension. It’s not just one university, ‘cuz sometimes people have thought, “Oh, you’re office is at U.C.S.D.” No, no, it’s actually in the County Operations Center in Corina Mesa. Karasik: Mmm. 20 �Graham: And we have information that is generated from all of these universities throughout the state. Now some of it applies directly to where we’re here in the San Diego. Another applies to more northern California areas. But the information clearly tells you that. And of course, our tax money is paying for some of this research, because we have a very productive agricultural economy in California. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And the research is directed toward the agricultural, commercial aspect. But there are spinoff bits of information that are generated that directly help the home gardener as well. So we’re out there. As a matter of fact, if I can bend your ear, the story about the creation of the Master Gardener program was apparently it started in Washington state. And this good-hearted cooperative extension agent was getting a lot of calls, people having questions on their home garden situation. But he was being paid to advise and help out the commercial growers and farmers. And he didn’t want to be rude and not help them, but he had his plate full helping the commercial farmers. So he got the brilliant idea. I’ll train a crew of volunteers and when I get a home garden question I will pass the question on to them. And that’s what I was told started the Master Gardener program. And now I’ve been told that we actually have Master Gardeners in all fifty states. Karasik: Oh, wow, good. Graham: So— Karasik: Oh, that’s great. Well, um, we’ve certainly had an interesting conversation here and if there’s anything else that you would like to tell. We’re so appreciative of the work that you’ve done and I can see where that’s been a really big part of your life and I’ve–I’m assuming very rewarding— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —and it’s enabled you to make a lot of friends and— Graham: And I’d like to say also I’m very pleased to volunteer for the Solana Center for Environmental Innovation. Karasik: Oh, that’s such a great place. Graham: Right here in Encinitas. Karasik: Let’s talk about that just for a little bit, because again in the future I think that will be something that will still be here. Graham: Yes, of course. Karasik: And they do so many things there. Let’s talk about that a little bit. Graham: Well, they were at the Encinitas EcoFest, right next to my Master Gardener exhibit. And they teach many aspects and as far as gardening, composting, very important. And instead of having that truck rumble through your neighborhood once a week and pick up the green waste 21 �in the bin, if more of us could compost on site, it would help the environment. Also, of course, if you’ve ever gone to the nursery and priced bags of potting soil and compost, it’s not inexpensive if you consider the number of bags you could use as an avid gardener for the year. Karasik: And I don’t know if we always know where all that soil came from. Graham: Well, it is nice to have control of it from your own garden and know what went into it exactly. Karasik: Exactly. Graham: And while it does take a little bit of room and it does take some time, it also is a nice excuse to get out into the fresh air in the garden. Karasik: What do you recommend, because I know a lot of people are afraid to compost because they think it will bring critters? Graham: Oh, okay. When you are putting certain elements in the compost pile that you think might accidentally bring critters like the egg shell, or the citrus peel or the avocado pits or something, it is highly recommended that you bury that in the compost pile with a layer at least four inches maybe even six inches of yard trimmings above it. That will basically absorb any odors and of course it’s not recommended that you put bones in the compost pile, because that would tend to attract critters. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Now, will–will worms come into that? Or is a worm compost kind of a separate approach to composting? Graham: Well there is vermicompost in a worm bin. Karasik: Right. Graham: Worms will come into your compost pile. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And you give them things to eat. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: The fruit waste, like the peels and pits, etc. As well as the decomposing leaves and twigs, etc. Karasik: Leftover food, and lettu—greens, things like that. Graham: Vegetables and fruits leftover. Karasik: Yeah. Yeah. Graham: Not meat. Of course. Karasik: Right, right. 22 �Graham: Not meat or bugs. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: And of course, you’ve moistened the environment in the compost pile to help it decompose and they–worms breathe through their skin and they need a moist–yep, they actually need a moist skin to survive. So, they are very happy to find this moist environment which offers them perfect lodging and food buffet, moisture, yes. Karasik: Just for my own curiosity. I’ve always been fascinated by earthworms and the fact that you’ve–that you’ve–they’re w–w–one of the few living beings where you can cut off their head and they’ll grow another one. Is that correct? Graham: No. that’s not— Karasik: They’ll grow, maybe not their head, but the back end or— Graham: No. Karasik: That’s not true? Graham: Um, too many people—I mean, depending on the amount you cut off at the tail end, they might survive. Karasik: Not intentionally, obviously. Graham: Yeah. But if you accidentally cut one in two, some people have this misconception that you’ll get two worms. No. It’ll die. Karasik: Aw. I had that misconception. Graham: Yeah. That’s a popular— Karasik: And they are so critical. Graham: Yes. Karasik: They are so critical. But probably one of the most or when we look at–at soil. Are you familiar with soil regeneration and some of the ways that they’re trying now to—because so much of our soil has been depleted? Do you get involved in that, or are you just— Graham: Well, with the compost pile, you’re helping replenish. Karasik: mm-hmm. Graham: And when you think about it, okay. The nutrients it takes for let’s say your peach tree to make peaches, it has to make leaves. Well, some of that is from the very leaves that came, matured, off the tree. So, you’re recycling it in the compost pile and putting it back underneath the tree when you’re putting some compost into the soil under your peach tree. Karasik: Right. Wonderful. That’s–that’s a good point as well. 23 �Graham: Mm-hmm. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: So you’re just basically recycling the nutrients as opposed to chucking them into the trash and hauling them off to the land fill. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: And not even chucking them into the green bin and having them hauled off. But, at least when it goes to the green facility at Miramar, it gets repurposed. But it’s more. Karasik: Have you ever visited that place? Graham: Oh yes! It was fantastic. This was decades ago. Karasik: That would be a wonderful tour. Graham: There was a field trip—I don’t remember if it was Master Gardeners or the Encin—the Solana Center sponsored the field trip decades ago. It was so much fun! And wow, it was interesting. Karasik: I’d like to do that. I’d also like to visit one of these desalination plants and see how they’re doing that. Graham: Oh, yes. Karasik: Because that seems to be the future. Now, that’s another point. Graham: I was able to take a tour of that too. That was Solana Center that hosted that decades ago. Karasik: Oh, did they? Graham: From up the street at the Carlsbad Desalinization Plant. Karasik: Yes! I might ask them if they know how somebody can do that now. One other thing I wanted to ask about the Solana Center. I had seen something where you can get some buckets and take it home, and so you can kind of get compost from them, or maybe a starter? How does that work? Graham: Um, you pay a fee. I—don’t quote me because I’m not sure exactly how much it is. You get a bucket to take home, and you put your fruit and vegetable waste in it, and also bones and—in other words, if you’re not composting you put these materials in there. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And it has some bokashi in it, which ferments it. Karasik: Is bokashi an organism that breaks it down? Graham: It’s a— 24 �Karasik: What is that? Graham: —it’s more like a chemical— Karasik: Oh, okay. Graham: —that pickles it. I think it’s what they compare it to. Karasik: Okay. Graham: And you can take that back, and then you can get some finished compost as well. So— Karasik: Oh, that’s how— Graham: —but you’ll–you’ll want to call the Solana Center and ask for the details. Karasik: Right. Yes. I’ve been over there and they were very supportive to us— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —for the EcoFest as well. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Well, I just want to thank you for your time. And this has been a really interesting and educational interview. And you have definitely had a wonderful life, and I sense the fact that you will be around for quite a while and helping a whole lot more people. And I’m so happy to know you and really appreciate your time, and what you’re going to offer for future generations. Graham: Well, thanks for this opportunity to reach out to people. Karasik: Oh, absolutely. You’re so welcome. So again we’re—actually, I don’t know if I mentioned this. We’re at the San Dieguito Heritage Museum which is here in Encinitas and I really wish that people could see that, although they’ll have the opportunity to do that, you know, locally. But the history here at this particular museum is incredible, as well. So, would encourage people to come out if they happen to listen to this and we thank them also for the opportunity to use their equipment, and hope that this will be a good video. So, thank you very much. Graham: You’re very welcome. Karasik: And we will finish here. 25 �GLOSSARY Babcock peach (pg. 15) Biophaline (pg. 7, 8) California Rare Fruit Growers (pg. 18-19) Carlsbad Desalinization Plant (pg. 24) County Operations Center [Corina Mesa] (pg. 20) EcoFest (pg.1, 6, 10, 14, 21, 25) Glyphosate (pg.6) Heritage Museum (pg. 19) Integrated Pest Management (pg.3, 4) Johns Hopkins University (pg. 11) Kirkcaldy, Scotland (pg. 12) Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility (pg. 10, 14) Master Gardener(s) (pg. 1-4, 6, 12-15, 17, 20-21, 24) Panamint nectarine (pg. 15) Polychaete (pg. 7, 8) San Dieguito Heritage Museum (pg. 25) San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station [Plant One] (pg. 7, 8, 10, 12) Solana Center for Environmental Innovation (pg. 21, 24-25) Stone, Harry (pg. 18) Sunset Western Garden book (pg. 13, 17) Sunshine Gardens Nursery (pg. 19) Truck farm (pg. 19) University of California Cooperative Extension (pg. 12, 20, 21) Vermicompost (pg. 22) 26 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Graham. Carol. Interview transcript, November 4, 2022. Description An account of the resource Carol Graham is a Master Garderner. She has a Bachelor's degree in Zoology and began her career working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One. After its closure, she enrolled to become a Master Gardner volunteer that was sponsered through the University of California Cooperative Extension program. The Master Gardner program is dedicated to distributing information for an environmentally-responsible home and garden. She has been a Master Gardner since 1983 and participates in various events such as EcoFest. She is very passionate about the study of insects, pest management, composting, and protecting the environment from pesticides. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Carol Graham Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Suzy Karasik Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-04 Subject The topic of the resource Crops -- Diseases and pests -- Biological control Gardening -- California -- San Diego County Master gardeners -- California -- San Diego County Organic farming San Diego State University San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station (Calif.) University of California (System). Cooperative Extension Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Encinitas (Calif.) North San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Carol Graham License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GrahamCarol_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-04_Transcription Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Ho Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Louis Adamsel OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=AdamselLouis_HoJennifer_2021-05-28.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Adamsel, Louis. Interview May 28th, 2021 SC027-08 1:57:56 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm San Marcos (Calif.) ; Watts (Los Angeles, Calif.) ; Moreno Valley (Calif.) ; California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center ; California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated ; California State University San Marcos -- Students ; California State University San Marcos -- Staff ; Black experience in America ; Civil rights ; Student Success Louis Adamsel Jennifer Ho mp4 AdamselLouis_HoJennifer_2021-05-28.mp4 1:|15(16)|34(9)|51(3)|61(10)|76(11)|87(9)|100(3)|109(9)|119(11)|132(13)|146(3)|157(4)|167(18)|178(8)|188(5)|198(5)|215(18)|226(9)|237(4)|246(12)|266(10)|276(8)|287(15)|300(11)|310(13)|321(5)|333(13)|345(13)|353(12)|361(12)|374(9)|394(4)|404(17)|417(13)|428(17)|442(3)|452(12)|465(4)|476(3)|492(4)|502(17)|515(4)|528(6)|538(8)|549(9)|560(14)|569(4)|582(4)|592(14)|602(17)|612(13)|626(13)|639(6)|649(6)|662(4)|673(7)|683(12)|698(14)|709(4)|720(13)|731(12)|747(4)|765(13)|777(3)|787(12)|800(10)|811(12)|822(9)|833(6)|842(5)|851(9)|860(17)|872(8)|883(4)|897(3)|905(11)|915(10)|930(11)|948(14)|959(14)|970(9)|985(5)|994(13)|1011(3)|1025(6)|1035(11)|1045(13)|1060(15)|1071(16)|1081(9)|1090(16)|1106(4)|1117(6)|1128(17)|1137(12)|1147(8)|1156(6)|1167(16)|1178(10)|1192(5)|1201(10)|1213(9)|1220(12)|1229(11)|1239(3)|1253(15)|1267(12)|1278(3)|1292(12)|1303(4)|1313(4)|1329(5)|1348(6)|1360(12)|1377(8)|1398(4)|1407(16)|1423(4) Undefined 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6467aaeae0fa754e1c7c8115191c77ae.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 46 Childhood and early education experience 0 140 Developing an understanding of Blackness 0 415 Learning about Black history and the Black experience in childhood and adolescence 0 636 Comparing lived experiences in Georgia, Los Angeles, and choosing Cal State San Marcos 0 1249 Adamsel's relationship with the Black Student Center 0 1597 Leaders on the Black Student Center project, their contributions, and unsung heroes 0 1899 Visions for the Black Student Center at its inception and its current mission 0 2132 Needs of students, staff, and faculty involved in the Black Student Center's creation 0 2362 Pushback to the creation of the Black Student Center 0 3084 Attending the The Black Student Center Grand Opening 0 3085 Attending the The Black Student Center Grand Opening and continuing levels of support after the BSC Opening 0 3873 The Black Student Center's impact on the campus community and on Adamsel personally 0 4493 Behind the scenes stories 0 5525 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements 0 6710 Adamsel's thoughts on the Black Student Center Oral History Project 0 oral history In this interview, Louis Adamsel speaks on his time as an undergraduate student at California State University San Marcos, aspects of his life as a student leader, his experience as a Black student and, later, as a staff member. Adamsel discusses his experience advocating for the opening of the Black Student Center and the purpose the BSC serves to students, including the necessity of having a variety of resources in order to retain underserved students. He also speaks on mentorships and partnerships, both within the Black community and across identities and spaces. Jennifer Ho: All right. Today is Friday, May 28th, 2021, at ten o seven a.m. I’m Jennifer Ho, archivist for Special Collections at Cal State San Marcos, and today I’m interviewing Louis Adamsel for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Students Center and the CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Due to the ongoing Covid-19 pandemic, this interview is being conducted virtually. Louis, thanks for being here with me today. How are you doing? Louis Adamsel: I’m doing lovely. Great to be here. Thank you for the invite. Ho: Yeah. All right. So, let’s get right to it. Tell me about your childhood. Where were you born? Where did you grow up? Adamsel: So, where I was born and ultimately where I grew up are two different places. I was born and I spent early part of my childhood in Watts, California, Watts, Los Angeles, so beautiful place. Got early experiences of education there. Just family, very beautiful place. But from Los Angeles, Watts, Los Angeles, we ended up moving to the Inland Empire, Marino Valley. And that was more desert-type. It was hotter but it was a great place to learn, grow up. And that’s where a majority of my childhood friends are from, and I still have family there to this day. Ho: Okay. Your parents still live in Marino Valley? Adamsel: Yeah. My guardian. I was actually raised by my aunt, so— Ho: Okay. Adamsel: —yeah. My aunt, yes, she still stays out there. Ho: All right. All right. Thank you. And so, did you go through high school in Marino Valley then? Adamsel: Yeah. I went to Rancho Verde High. (chuckles) Home of the Mustangs. I graduated back then, about 2012. So, almost 10 years ago, but— Ho: Okay. Adamsel: —but it was a lovely time. Ho: All right. Great. Thank you. Tell me, how did you come to your understanding of Blackness? Adamsel: I think I came to my understanding of Blackness just due to my environment. Like I said, I was born in Watts, Los Angeles. And I know my aunt worked in the school systems out there. And so, from early on, being close to schools, it was always great. I don’t know. I always was around Black people: my cousins, sisters, everything. I think that was just normal to me, Blackness. But then I think the biggest piece about Blackness was just about, when I was younger, I used to love reading. And so, with that comes history, learning about who you are in relation to the world. And the earliest bits of history was, I think, elementary school. But I can remember—it was 102nd Street School and I think there was a ceremony rededicating the name to Florence Griffith Joiner Elementary School. And so, right then, there was the history of a Black track star, one of the greatest female athletes. And boom! And my interest just—that started it. But through reading, through writing, through understanding people, through understanding different cultures, if you want to do anything in the world in relation to other people, I think the biggest piece is understanding that relation to yourself and where you come from and, ultimately, how the world perceives you. And especially being from Los Angeles and even understanding whether it’s relationships to police, understanding relationships with low-income communities, whether or not you understand it all entirely when you’re young, you can see differences. You can understand people and places where you might not see a specific race in a certain area, but you might see them everywhere else. And then, you put the two and two together at a young age. And I think through education and through reading and through history, you can sort of understand a little bit better. But, yeah, I feel like I always knew. (chuckles) Ho: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Through experience and learning. Adamsel: Yeah. Exactly. Ho: (several words unintelligible) Definitely. You mentioned that you did a lot of reading. Was reading something that you were interested in on your own, or did your aunt encourage you to read? Or was this all through school? Adamsel: I think reading was something that I did on my own a lot because I ultimately enjoyed it. I think it was peaceful and it fit, once you understand letters and the relationships, it was like figuring out a puzzle for me. I know my aunt, growing up in the household, reading was encouraged. Also having—I remember I would have older siblings and there would be scholastic book things, and every student reads at a specific level. And I had a sister who was three years older than me, and I would pick up, sometimes, her books from school. And I would take her readings just to read them because I would get bored if I was reading something or I finished series. But I was always in the library, always reading, and always searching for whether it was non-fiction, fiction. I loved it. And I still do. But I feel like, when I was younger, I think I used that as a way to—I like being by myself reading more than playing video games. And it shows in my skills today. (chuckles) Ho: Okay. That’s great. As a librarian, I can identify with that. (both laugh) Okay. So then, related question. What were you taught in childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black experience? You kind of touched on this already but anything to add to that? Adamsel: Well, yeah. So, I mean I think I was always taught about the Black experience through my household. I was raised by women who thought it was really important to teach you about the way you might be perceived, about the way you should act in public, treating people with respect. But the older I get, I don’t think that was by coincidence, by choice. It was because they were older black women who probably saw how black men were being treated in Los Angeles, specifically even anywhere you go. Even in the Inland Empire, being mindful of your surroundings is a sense of security. I think that was something that was always taught because one, you never know who’s watching ; but then there’s also if anything goes down, you might also be taken at a—how would you say? Like you’re not going to be given the benefit of the doubt. I think that’s what was the message that was trying to be given to me at a young age. And like I said, I didn’t really need anybody to tell me. I mean, I had family to tell me, uncles, aunts, anything. They would tell me the basics of be mindful of what’s going on in the streets, going to and from school, being in life. But then, also reading, whether it was historical books, whether it was non-fictional accounts from people and different areas. I feel through travels—my family used to send me off to different places, whether it was to visit family in Georgia or Detroit and allow me to soak in environments, and “Hey, go use public transportation, but understand how to blend and go about your daily life.” But in that Black experience, one, it was a lot of lived moments. It was a lot of learned experience, just through hands-on teaching. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: But through reading books, sometimes you can use other people’s experiences, other people’s lives and allow that to shape your understanding of those relationships, intercultural. Like I said, it’s all about how people perceive you. And then, based on their perception of how they might view the Black man in America or even Black kids in America, they’re going to treat you a certain way. And it’s through family teaching, I think I was able to realize, whether it was if I didn’t know the term “microaggression,” I could tell if somebody was a little bit more disrespectful to me or if somebody had respect no matter where you came from and, also, if I even wanted to bother with certain people just because of what I thought their perception of me might have been. Ho: Thank you. You mentioned visiting family in Georgia and other places. Can you briefly touch on your experience in L.A. versus Georgia and then also in San Marcos. I know they are three totally different locations in terms of demographics and culture. How was that like for you? Adamsel: Yeah. So, I’ll touch on that. I mean, when it comes to Watts versus—and then, I’ll even bring in like Marino Valley. So, Watts was a place where, even through history, one of the things that’s really prominent that I used to like the most when I was a kid was just even the brief history of the Watts Towers. These are towers in Watts but when you read—it’s sort of folklore but it’s a true story—but the books talk about a man being able to build the Watts Towers out of recycled materials, old mosaic artwork, everything and builds these—I forget how many towers are in there, but beautiful, beautiful structures made out of restructured material. And every time I used to go to school, I used to see these towers as a little kid. And I’m like “Man!” and try to find out the story about that. I used to—“Man, you could do anything with recycled materials. It looks beautiful. It’s structurally sound, and people respect it” and then also knowing that somebody came here to build that in a place that (clears throat) when you think about Watts, sometimes people have mixed reviews about it. It might not be labeled as one of the safest places for everybody. So, it’s one of those things that I used to like, being able to connect with people, and also seeing the amount of black and brown people in that city. I think that I used to appreciate that, and I think going to elementary, second grade out there, it was one of those things. My introduction to the school system started there. But that was also where I had some of my first Black teachers. And so, it was a lot of that there, even the afterschool programs. I feel like whether I knew it or not, I was soaking in those experiences. And when I went to the Inland Empire, I mean it really wasn’t like on a historical Black history tip in the Inland Empire. But that was also a growing city. And I think a lot of people migrated out there. It was a growing place. And I felt like that allowed me to be in an environment where it was sort of carefree. I could learn. I could sort of be— (clears throat) like my environment wasn’t going to shape me any way. I don’t think my environment, and the Inland Empire, it may not have been Black centric. But I still feel like there was opportunities for me to go any direction that I wanted to. When I’m in my studies, I still found pockets of Black mentorship or a teacher here or there. But I just feel like just the overall environment and that quality of life, it was just something simple for a young man to grow up in. You still see those different relationships. You still see it play out. You still would be taught by family. But it was a totally different environment than L.A., slightly less busy. And I think I like that internally. And when I think about Georgia, visiting family whether it was Georgia—I think one of the biggest things that I was able to do when I visited Georgia, one, is just see the difference in Black culture as a kid. I remember going to Georgia and then, in the summers, some of the friends and things that I would make in local parks or kicking it with family, you see them doing things different. You see Black kids playing baseball, whereas in California I’m like “We mainly play basketball” over there. Or just different accents. And I have family from the south. So, I feel like the accent really wasn’t a difference. But also, the historical areas, you could go down, visit MLK Museums or Black History museums and just soak up, I think, the southern culture a little bit more than you technically would on the west coast. I’m not saying the west coast doesn’t have a vibrant Black culture. But when you come from a place where, whether the narrative wants to be blatantly told or not, you’re going to have a museum that captured things that some people might want to forget. Or just in the street names, or just in the local—even like the weather. You soak in so much from the people who have been there, who have lived it for generations and generations. And I feel like that’s one of the things that I still love to this day, traveling to different areas who their past has been, ultimately, a lot of Black history. And they have to—there’s so many different ways for them to keep track of that history and that culture. And it lives on through whether it’s food, music, style. I like it all, and it’s all a blend. Ho: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That’s great. Identity is really important, and knowing about your history and your people really grounds you and shapes you. And it’s really important, for sure. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: Definitely. Okay. So then, what about San Marcos? Why did you decide to come here, and then what about the culture of this area brought you here? Why did you choose San Marcos? Adamsel: Yeah. To be honest, one of my homeboys, one of my friends from high school, we used to be in band together. And I think he came here—Damion Brandtley—he was a scholar here. But he had just told me about it. He was like “Man, it’s way cooler, weather-wise.” It’s near the beach. It’s a beautiful place. I had never been. But the Inland Empire was hot. And I was like “Yeah. I wouldn’t mind going there.” And I think I had applied but when I had originally applied, I ended up going to the military first. And then I think I was in Virginia and then I had tried again to apply. And then I ended up getting in. But I didn’t come right away. So, I had never seen San Marcos. I had only heard the weather was decent because it was semi-close to the beach. You can get there by local transportation. But when I came to San Marcos, I think I appreciated the hills. I appreciated the calmness of San Marcos. I came in 2013. I feel like they built a building every single year since then, and it’s developing. It’s not the calm city. Well, it probably won’t be the calm city that I’d seen. But when I’d first seen it, it was just so calm and so peaceful. And I think I enjoyed that peace. I won’t say it was like I was looking at San Marcos and I’m like “Oh my god, the demographics of the Black population are just so amazing.” (Jennifer chuckles) You know, I’m gonna feel enveloped. But I’m not the kind of person that says, “I need my group to be the most dominant in the area to thrive.” I didn’t look at San Marcos like that. I looked at San Marcos as a place where it was a young area. And I was like “Well, if this place is growing, I can grow with it” because I can’t grow in a place where it’s like too much going on around me. I won’t probably be able to focus. I was nervous about that. And, yeah, so San Marcos, a beautiful place. I feel like the demographics were all over the place. But I still felt like it was a majority White. I know it became a Hispanic institution. So, we get some trickles of culture there. Our Native American Land Act, that’s great. But one of the things I always noticed around my time in school is just the rate, the percentages of Black Americans at Cal State San Marcos, typically like 2.5, 3%. And that stayed the same. And I never really understood that dynamic in the relationship to Black students, understanding do they know it’s here? Is it a cool place to be? But it just didn’t seem—I feel like we got—there was Blackness here, but I felt like the community, anybody that was here, typically had to band together because we were here together. But yeah, it feels like San Marcos wasn’t that place where I was just “I’m going because the Black population.” I think I went because it was a young university, and I think the university was still making a name for itself. And so, I came in at a time where I was like “Hey. I want to do that too.” So, we had similar visions. (chuckles) Ho: Okay. That’s nice. I like how you said that you and the university would grow together. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: That’s really great. Remind me what years were you at Cal State San Marcos? Adamsel: I was there from 2013, Fall 2013, to Spring 2018. Ho: Okay. Now tell me what’s your relationship to the Black Student Center? Why did you get involved? Adamsel: Yeah. My relationship is I think I got involved because of friends. Being a young Black man on Cal State San Marcos’s campus, even staying in the dorms my Freshmen year, one of the natures of my relationship to campus used to be “Let me go to class, and then let me go back to the dorms, maybe work on homework, maybe not.” But I felt like I had a lot of friends in the dorms. And that was my relationship to campus. But then, ultimately, I started knowing more and more people who were upper classmen. And I think it might have been like Kyla or Tiffaney Boyd, but different people had come into my friend group and they’d be like “Oh, you know, on Tuesdays we’re going to this Black Student Union meeting.” And I think ultimately my relationship with fellow Black students on campus started thriving. So, when it came to, I believe it was like my, it might have been my second or third year in Cal State San Marcos. And that was one of the things. I used to actually just be like a fly on the wall when it came to the matters of BSC arriving, thinking about Jamaéla (Johnson), Tiffaney. Yeah. We’d have conversations about “Oh, you know, we’re thinking about Black Student Center, and thinking about what that could mean for university Black students.” And I remember tagging along to like the BSU meetings to promote this idea of “Hey, you know, this is coming! Are we having support from all of us? Is this something that—if there’s ever going to be sign holding or different things like that.” Because I know Tiffaney and Jamaéla were very involved with student government. They were the leaders at that time. I believe Tiffaney was president at that time. And that was one of those things where you were just making sure that this is not only an idea coming from two heads but getting that buy-in from an entire community, understanding like “Hey, you know, we have community but if we could have this space, the community probably wouldn’t have to work as hard trying to organize together or even have that spot on campus to where it’s undeniably yours.” Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And so, yeah. I feel like personally I don’t necessarily know. I guess in hindsight you never really know how minor some of your actions might be. Reviewing documents differently, like it may seem so minor. And for me it does, in relationship to the work that Jamaéla and Tiffaney and a lot of other people have put in, even people not inside the Black community, allies from the Latin /X Center, different other groups and different people around campus. I feel like my work was miniscule but ultimately that Center thrived and came to be. And then, I feel like my relationship with the Center also blossomed because, as Tiffaney and Jamaéla and some of those other strong pushers of this space, they were there but then they left. And then I’m a student, ended up being involved in student government and then, ultimately, became student government president and then I get to see even more. Being a Black student government president, my relationship with Black students is probably going to be a little different in the sense that this should be a working relationship, for sure. If there’s Black students on campus, I want them to see how seamless it should be to, one, do good work for the university, but then also make sure you’re still seen in your spaces and not sort of having this gap between “Oh, that’s Louis. But we have no idea who he is.” Or he has no ideas (of) what is the regular Black student facing on campus. And I think that was one of the things that I really wanted to do, as a student, even as a student leader, is always make sure that, one, I was seen in those spaces, but then encourage the students who were in those spaces “Hey, because you’re a leader in this space, that means you could lead anywhere on campus. Don’t forget to come back and make sure you’re in multiple spaces at once.” But I was like “That’s what the university needs! They need to see Black people, whether you originated in the Center, because (it’s) a place of comfort.” I’m like “They need to see you in every facet of the university because like why not!” But that’s how I used to treat my relationship to the Black Student Center. I hope I answered that question. Ho: Yeah. For sure. Thank you. Okay. So, tell me. You mentioned Jamaéla and Tiffaney. Tell me about different leaders on the project and their contributions, including any unsung heroes that maybe we don’t know about because there are always unsung heroes. Adamsel: Yeah. I’m totally blanking on people’s names and times because it was a while ago and Tiffaney and Jamaéla might beat me up. I do remember there was a Karen Guzman. I remember she used to work closely with Tiffaney and Jamaéla in getting support of different people. Ho: Was she a student? Adamsel: Yes. She was a student, and I don’t really know how she chooses to identify herself. Like Chincanx, Latinx. But I know she was a pusher of this space as well as a pusher for the Latina Center. Um, man, other folks. I think the entire Black community might get a pat on the back for pushing this. Thinking about Akilah Wiggins, I believe she was one of the first people to tell me to go to a BSU meeting and then, ultimately, leading me to work in conjunction with Tiffaney and Jamaéla. And, yeah, anybody else who I forget, they(’re) going to probably have to come and talk to me because I’m probably forgetting a lot more names. But there were a lot of unsung heroes. And, for me, even when it comes to unsung heroes, that’s one of the things that I also think about, is as the space grew and as it came to be what it is today, I’m thinking about even all the student workers who worked in the Black Student Center when it first opened. I think about the first director, Anthony Jett. I think about where the space is now from where it was, and I’m—even people like Dr. G(eoffrey Gilmore) or—man, some of our Student Life and Leadership folks that I’m forgetting. But, again, from where it is then to where it is now, that growth, those events, the events that were in person, our Black Faculty Staff Association, I feel like every single Black group on the campus they organize in a way to where they needed to be in that space at some point. And when it comes to that leadership on this, man, there were so many leaders. But it was just something that Black students felt they needed. And then not only felt they needed but then came together to get it. I think that was really powerful. And, yeah, like I said, it was a lot of unsung heroes. But I think, ultimately, everyone’s last vision, from the time it was a spark in someone’s mind to the time they had their first-year anniversary, even coming on multiple year anniversaries to our current director now, I think everybody’s vision is really just to make that space for Black students, one, to feel recognized, to feel seen but then also this is not a soaking pool. This should be the jump-off point. You might come hear introduction to the university but you’re going to bounce off going in so many different paths. But, ultimately, your first relationship to the university, unlike me, unlike some of the unsung heroes, our first relationship to the university wasn’t a Black Student Center. It was just relationships with each other. And if you couldn’t walk past a Black student on campus without knowing their name, that was the conversation. You go “Hey, hey. You know, I haven’t seen you before. You might be a commuter. You might be—whoever you are but we need to know a name so we can at least invite you to our next outing, our next poolside, our next, community service, anything.” But, yeah, thank you for that question. Ho: Sure, yeah. If you think of peoples’ names as we’re talking, please feel free to mention them. Adamsel: Oh, yeah. Of course. I’ll make sure I’ll throw them out. Ho: Okay. Great. So, you mentioned vision and purpose for the Black Student Center. Tell me what the vision and mission and purpose were and what they are now, or as recently as—since we’re not at the university anymore. Adamsel: Man, you know, John— Ho: I mean not word for word but in your opinion. Adamsel: I’m like John might have to hurt me (Jen laughs) because I don’t know the mission, the vision today. But I think that mission—because this is going to have to come off the top of the head and this is going to be mission-based on what I felt, and vision based on what I’ve seen—I think that mission was to create an environment to where Black students felt seen. They felt a little bit protected because they were among people who shared their common experiences along with themselves. And I think it also created a space to where you can be around your peers who share those same experiences. And then, maybe, if people who were not a part of your ethnic background, they want to come in and try to be an ally, try to learn a little bit. It also creates a space for other people to come in and see you in your spaces, how you interact, the events that you put on, and hopefully learn a little bit about your community so they could be better people, better allies. I think the vision, when it comes to the space, is making sure you achieve that Black excellence in the school setting, feel supported by your peers. But then it also—the vision is bringing in that Black faculty and staff component, making sure these students are supported, making sure that if there are other allies in the faculty staff around campus, like “Hey, if you want to come find this prominent group of Black students, people who are involved, if you need to pull things, this creates a space where everybody is on campus.” And let’s say they’re looking for Black students to get involved or mentor, it allows you that area to where you can pull from. And even if you’re not solely pulling from that space as a resource of Black students, it also allows that to be a beacon on campus for Black students as they’re coming, as they’re commuting, like “Hey. I didn’t know this space existed. Boom! Let me pop in there. I don’t only have to be in like a commuter line. Or I don’t only have to be in a library study room.” And then going back to that connectivity and that nature, having that Black Student Center is that homing beacon when we’re on campus. I feel like it adds to our retention, or it should add to the retention. I’m not going to spit out the numbers and say has this done what we expected it to do? But that vision is to increase that campus presence, to increase your interaction with the campus because we all understand building a relationship with a space. Building that relationship with a space will ultimately enhance your relationship to the university. Getting more involved, typically more times than not, will allow students to keep their GPA up, their GPA requirements on things, be a little bit more focused, have more peers around, build better relationships. So, you end up leaving college better than you found it but then you also leave college with a larger network, a couple more experiences—some great experiences at that—and a little bit more understanding of who you are in relationship to the entire world. Ho: Thank you. So, these items that you mention—increasing your network, increasing retention, being a beacon for Black students—are these what the students and faculty and staff had in mind when they were pushing for the Black Student Center? Or was there anything else? Adamsel: Yeah. I think they were pushing for that, and I think some of the students would say I sometimes debate with the phrase “Safe Space.” Yeah, this is a space for you to grow. I don’t necessarily—I work crisis. I don’t necessarily think every single space is safe. I still—We got to do our due diligence. But when we look at the space, I think people wanted it to be a space where they can come see a little bit of history, learn a little bit about their peers. And, ultimately, this is the catalyst for Black students, whether it was research, tutoring. This is the hub. And I think that was the vision that Black faculty, staff, and students wanted to see because, when we came on campus, just the fact of we’re walking up Chavez stairs just like the rest of them, and we’d go all the way to the back of the school. And this is 2013. We go all the way to the back of the school still to meet in like Mark 101, Mark 103, 102. And that was our commute. And we’d see everybody at U-hour. We’re walking all the way across campus or sometimes we’d be in SBSB, you know, walk across campus. We always had to do a migration. But even when the Black—I mean, not the Black student but when the USU was built, the University Student Union was built, we see all these groups in the space. We understand what could be possible, what could be done. But we didn’t have it. And, pushing for that, it’s like okay. Well, we know what we could have. They look like they’re having a good time. They look like their events are awesome. There’s cross-functioning, cross-collaboration going on. There’s support from the university. There is support from Student Life and Leadership. There’s support from our Vice President of Student University Affairs. All these groups have it. We don’t. So, when you see that support from the university, it makes you look and say it looks like in some shape or form, it may not be in entirety that the university is supporting, but just these spaces existing on Cal State San Marco’s campus, that allowed Black students to realize like wow! This is how the university chose to support this, and this is how we are supported. And when you look at differences, differences can sometimes be blatant explanations without needing to say anything. The imagery that I see, the events that I see put on, I’m walking my day-to-day path through the university. I’m feeling the relationship that I am in with the university. But somebody else might feel their relationship is different, based on what they identify with, based on the spaces they can go into and see themselves represented, whether it’s in imagery, whether it’s in dialogue, whether it’s events. And if I get events coming up the end of January ‘til the beginning of March, then I know like oh, wow! This is how you see me. This is how you choose to view me. And this is going to be your relationship with me. Ho: Thank you. I have a list of questions here, but I went way off, just following your— (both chuckle) Adamsel: Oh. It’s all right. Ho: Okay. So, did you experience or witness any push back to the creation of the Black Student Center? Adamsel: Yeah. But I think I experienced it in a multitude of ways. I think there was push back coming from places that you never would think. Ho: Like what? Adamsel: I think there was push back from student government, on meetings when there would be topics in conversation where it’s like public, like you could see people speaking against bringing on the Black Student Center. And to be honest, I don’t think I really was in those meetings that much, invested. But when I was there, I could see it, or even reading the meeting minutes afterwards, I’m like dang! I didn’t know this person was against it or for it. When the culmination of the Center was starting, I think Cal State San Marcos might have posted something about it, one way or another. And I think there was a multitude of comments, hundreds of comments where it was like “We don’t need spaces for Black people,” dah, dah, dah, dah. It’s crazy to see people just against cultural identifiable spaces. It’s like “Why do you all need a safe space? We don’t have one.” And they don’t understand that relationship. Or “Why do you feel like you need to go into a Black Student Center? We think you’re going to just hide out in there. This doesn’t need to be a space for your hiding. If you want to be accepted, then go places where everybody is and then you’ll be accepted.” Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: And it’s just funny how people’s understanding of what you mean by “safe space” means or what some people meant by having a Center, whether it talks about their identity needs, their racial identity needs. I’m just like, man. For me, I think sometimes the pushback was very weird. Or it wouldn’t be pushback, but when you look at the amount of people that felt uncomfortable just walking past our spaces or even being in the space, and you could see a person who wasn’t Black. They might meet somebody who’s Black that’s in the space, might be a friend. But then they’d be lingering at the door like “Hey. Can you come on out?” People just feel awkward when they go into a space that, overall, the majority doesn’t look like them. They’re scared to go in, and they feel awkward going in. But then, when you say, “This is how I feel when everywhere doesn’t look like me,” it’s hard for them to picture it. And I’m like, “Oh. You feel that way when you come into our space. That’s how I feel (when) I’m in your space.” But it’s funny when people can’t do a quick flip in their mind and see like ah! This is probably why you want it and need it. (chuckles) Ho: Yeah. I get what you’re saying. I know who you’re talking about. (both laugh) All right. What did Uiversity Administration communicate was their vision for the Black Student Center, if you remember? Adamsel: Mmm, I don’t know. I know when I was a senior, I did an independent study project with Dreama Moon. And I spoke about the—I forget the title of this independent reader study project—but I spoke about how the university can bring forward something like a Black Student Center and they hope that it would—I think their vision was this will fix all of our problems with the Black community, and we will make this space. And your relationship with the campus, Black students’ relationships with the university, ultimately it will be fixed. And, for me, I think in my research—that was one of the things that I noticed because I felt a way about it—I was like yeah, just because there’s a Black Student Center, that doesn’t mean that the university has fully acknowledged everything that the Black students are going through and then is working to fix (it). Because the Black Student Center is the smallest center in the university student union. But it’s just one center. It only had one director. The budget may have been whatever it was. It was probably—still, it’s a budget. It’s limited. And if the organization, the university, doesn’t change, those Black students that are in that space still don’t feel confident to go out and be leaders on campus. They still might not feel confident to go off and explore different areas. I didn’t necessarily want the Black Student Center to be a safe haven. I wanted it to be a place of exploration, research. You start here but you go anywhere you want on campus. But in order for you to feel like you can be anywhere on campus, that campus has to be inviting. That campus has to be doing more from the top. We need to see it probably in leadership. We need to see it in mentorship. We need to see it in recruitment and retention rates. And these are all things that I cared about. And so, when I was on campus, I worked in whether it was like hiring diversity, on diversity committees, or sitting in African American retention committees. I see the numbers. I see what we’re doing. But ultimately, all that just funneled my thoughts and we’re not doing enough because if we were doing enough, they would feel comfortable. They wouldn’t want to leave. They would be present. But all the people that were being present, again, they consolidated in that Center. And I don’t think it was the Center’s fault. I think it was just acknowledgment that the university thought the Center was the end all, be all. But Black students, people, we naturally need more. We want more. But it takes more than just a space to make anybody feel comfortable to say, “Okay. This university is it. I want to be, ultimately, involved.” And so, yeah, just going off that. I don’t feel that the university administration really—whatever their vision was, I don’t think they pushed it, from top to bottom. It wasn’t reflected in policies. It wasn’t reflected in hiring. It wasn’t reflected in Black faculty and staff numbers. I just didn’t see it. But that’s just me. If there’s some numbers out there that have prove me wrong, show them. (both laugh) Ho: So, are you saying that, based on what you saw, Administration was just like “Okay. Here’s your Center. That’s it. We gave you enough.” Is that, basically, the impression you got? Adamsel: Yeah. That was basically it. I think that the Center was that space to give. It was a place like “We’re going to give this to you. You have it. This should be enough. And we’re going to take a step back.” This is a smaller population. You might be 2.5-3% but this is not a population. I think that should have probably been a red flag. This is a population to cultivate. This is a population—it may be a small representation of our campus but hey, if we cultivate this group, if we make sure we do everything in our power that this group succeeds, we might not be getting monies from federal sources or resources or anything like that. But, for me, I realize taking that initiative and putting that foot forward for any student, I feel like we have pockets of Black faculty and staff overworking to make sure we felt accepted. And there were students who wanted to make sure that the next student felt accepted. But man, that would have felt good coming from the university with university backing, with programs and resources from the jump. I think about people like Floyd Lai of the Cross-Cultural Center, Andreas Favela, even Francisco Checa, EOP. All these other groups, all these other resources may have been there for underserved students and even showing Black students “Hey, you call can do mentorships. You all can have that.” And I love watching other spaces, how they worked and how other groups, even if you come from a minority represented population—looking at CAMP (College Assistance Migrant Program) students, TRIO, even international students—every population on our campus has the ability to get backing and support and budget outlined for that specific thing. And I loved—I always imagined it like rungs on a ladder. If I was a LatinX student or if I was a white student, how many rungs on the ladder—if I slipped and fell off this ladder—how many rungs would I hit on this ladder until I fell off into nothingness? Am I going to see counselors I could potentially train with? Are there student groups that I could reach out to? Are there counselors or things or events that are specifically targeted to me to where I can hit every step at Cal State San Marcos before I ultimately fall off? And therefore, I feel like Black students, especially Black male students, Black female students, man, there’s not a lot of opportunities to pick you up if you fail. If you fail your first year, your second year, and you decide to fall off the wayside and not come back, how many people or how many organizations would be there to “Oh, we’re really geared towards retention. We’re really geared to making sure you felt safe, comfortable, understood.” I didn’t see that much. And so, for me, that was always on the forefront of my head. Ho: Thank you. Okay. Can you tell me about—Actually, were you at the grand opening of the Black Student Center? Adamsel: Yeah. It was a lovely event. Ho: Okay. All right. Have you seen the same level of support for the Center over the years since it opened? Adamsel: When it opened, I did see some support. I think I saw some university administration go in there and at least try to visit the space. And I think I saw a lot of faculty members across— whether they were in the arts, history, communications professors. I feel like a lot of people chose to partner with the Black Student Center when it first opened. And I saw events out the wazoo. But I think the biggest thing when—And so we’re focusing on partnerships, right? Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: Yeah. So, I think a lot of people came, especially from the opening. Well, it was even before the opening because I feel like it was open a little bit before the grand opening. And so, I feel a lot of people across the university wanted to come and see it, if they supported it. And they even urged their students to go out and come support it. And the grand opening was a great event with performances, food. I believe the president even spoke at the grand opening. And so, seeing that representation from university administration and seeing that support, it showcased like oh, this is what it could be. And the amount of students that were able to come and just because it was a space, whether they wanted to see it or not, they were like wow! Intrigued that this is all happening. And this might be a smaller Center but the things that took place, whether it was on the grand opening day or right after and the years to come, it seemed like it was booming. I think ultimately the Center has transformed from the things that it has done now, one, because of Covid, but even before Covid, I feel like the transformation was really geared at involvement, events, and then really gearing up partnerships. And I think, especially with the hiring of—I forget her title but sort of like the overall—Gail Cole-Avent, Dr. Gail Cole-Avent, what her role in managing all the spaces and those leaders from all those spaces, being able to come together. I image the partnerships are even on another scale now because they are able to communicate calendars and everything. But it’s nice to see the events just being churned out. It’s nice to see that the students have such a greater involvement. And I think—because before, when the Center first started, I think the university presence was like “Hey. Let’s let this Center cultivate.” But now I’m starting to see more “Hey, Black Students. We’re having new policies come out about retention. We’re having new policies come out about—We’re going to go into a study about the Black student experience, especially working with that BSC, Black Student Center.” So, I see the difference and before it was “Hey. We’re going to let the Black Student Center thrive and flourish by itself.” It can go up in flames or it can fly off into the sunset. But I didn’t see more policies supporting the students on a microlevel. Are we talking about how we’re getting students in? Are we talking about how we’re keeping them here. Hey, if the BSC is doing this, are the faculty/staff doing this? Is the university doing this? The onus shouldn’t only be on the students. What about the environment that they’re in? and I think, especially with people going back to campus this Fall, in the Fall of 2021, I’m excited to see hey, are those university policies that are slowly being implemented, what are they doing to make sure that we’re retaining? And not only retaining, are we growing? Is there any possibility of getting past that 3%? Is there any possibility to make students feel comfortable on this campus? And it can be done. But it starts off with things like policies and people really reviewing. One of the things that I pushed back on, even when I was a student, as student government president, I even made that motion to say, “Hey. ASI should separate” because we have the Gender Equity Center and the LGBTQA Center, both great centers, but ASI was having them on their budget. Whereas the university budgets for Centers were different. And I just looked at it like wow. This is the Black Student Center. ASI doesn’t have the money in their budget. Cross Cultural Center is not on our budget. It’s all different. And when I look at the amount of differences, man, this is a lack of equity. And so, especially based on population, that’s all I care about. Are we going to give students in every single space the same opportunity to feel seen, feel accepted, and then also make sure that these university areas have great cross-functional relationships so people don’t feel afraid to learn and support another group, even if you’re not a part of that group? Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And I think if the university continues on that equity-based leadership, that thought process, they could get a much better space of identifying there’s an issue, even if students bring it up, even if you’re being reactive. If students bring up an issue, taking that time to listen to what the students are saying and say “Oh, they say they don’t feel supported. What can we do? They say there’s not enough resources for them. What can we do?” But, yeah, it starts with leadership. It starts with policy. And I think that’s the biggest thing. Ho: Definitely. Thank you for that. Going back a little, you mentioned some partnerships between the different centers. Do the different centers work together a lot in your experience? Adamsel: I think it could be better, at least from what I’ve seen. I do think a lot of times, when I was a student, I used to see other spaces come into the BSC, the Black Student Center, dropping off flyers and say “Hey, make sure you all come to my event,” drop off flyers and say “Come. Come. Come.” But it was never like y’all are doing something. We wholeheartedly want to support you. And there would be some opportunity for that. I don’t want to say none of these spaces I ever supported. But I did see some spaces would come into the Black Student Center to promote, and you know, “Hey. Bring your people. Yeah, we got free food. We got—” Maybe they had the budget to do free food. But they’d be like “Hey, you know, we got this. Come.” But when it was, we’re promoting, whether it was historical movie night or historical U-hour, sometimes they would be slow to come. And I think one of the things, especially from our first Director, Anthony Jett, that was one of the things that he would do, is work on those relationships. And I think, even from Anthony Jett to John Rawlins (III), those relationships as a Black Student Center Director are very important. But then it also—one of the things that I also have to acknowledge about those relationships as a Director to the university is they probably have so many different things and policies and ideas that they have to work on and manage as well as events. So, it depends on their relationships. But then I know it also probably depends on the people in those spaces, continuously building that comfort and that support network. And the people in other spaces, we all have to be in that mindset of okay, I’m going to help you get to that next step because either I’m there or I just want to help you out of the kindness of my heart. And I think people, the more that they started coming out and interacting with the Black Student Center, especially from those different identity or cultural spaces, they ultimately got more comfortable, more and more, to do it with the Black Student Center. And nowadays, you see collaboration of events starting, Boom! at the beginning of the semester. We’re going to all get out there, showcase what we all have. And then, I’m starting to see different—You know, “Let’s look at this culture through your lens.” Or “We’re going to all go to the Black Student Center, in collaboration with—” So, I see these relationships are booming. Ho. Mm-hmm. Adamsel: You know, longevity, time, people, these relationships are only going to get stronger. I think in the first couple years, first year or two, we’re going to see that mesh sort of happening and what’s our relationship to each other? How can we support each other? You’re sort of figuring that out. And I think a lot of the other spaces—I think that’s one of the things they had on the Black Student Center is they had probably been there for a little bit. So, maybe that’s one of the things that they were also able to do, sort of give that road map. “Oh, the Black Student Center can host an event like this,” or “We can collaborate with Student Life and Leadership like this.” So, I appreciated seeing that, the growing pains, the relationship building. But ultimately, I don’t think it’s anything that’s especially to a relationship building, I don’t think it’s anything that’s built overnight. And it's just a continuous effort and a continuous mindset to say this is what we want to do, and we really want to support this group of students, this area, the best way we can. And it has to come from the entire community. Ho: Thank you. You mentioned Historical U-Hour, Historical Moving On. Is that what you said? Adamsel: Historical with what? Ho: I don’t know. In terms of programming, you mentioned Historical U-Hour, and then Historical something else. And I was just wondering what those were. Adamsel: Yeah. So, U-Hour, 12-1 hour on the university. And I think it’s like Tuesdays and Thursdays. Well, it may have only been Tuesday. I think it was Tuesday and Thursday when there’s typically no class, from 12-1. So, typically groups and events would take place 12-1. And so, historically, when it came to U-Hour, some of these groups and events had already been out there, whether it’s promoting events, doing different things. And I think they took those experiences, one, it showed the Black Student Union this is how it’s done. And then, the Black Student Union, when the BSC came to be, it was like Boom! We have students who already identify how to throw events, how to work with Student Life and Leadership or ASI to get funding. And even when we got directors—Now, our directors probably have budgets and so they’re able to let us know how they can partner and make the best things for students. But those other spaces, in that relationship, they also use that historical nature of U-Hour to partner, do partnerships, even afternoon events, different things like that. So, I did like that time. And like I said, it’s just ultimately growth together and, through time and longevity, probably get that rhythm of, hey, this partnership was straight. Let’s continue on that partnership. Or what can we do to enhance anything that we’re doing? Ho: Mm-hmm. Thank you. So, tell me, in your experience, what has been the Black Student Center’s impact on the campus community, as well as you personally? Adamsel: I think their impact on the campus community has been amazing. It has allowed the university to have the support in a different way. (looks off the right in thought) So, wait. Can you repeat that question because I want to try to connect that? Ho: Sure. Yeah. Sure. What’s been the BSC’s impact on the campus community as well as the impact on you, personally? Adamsel: Okay. So, the campus community I think is impacted. It’s a decent impact. It’s not anything that has caused waves of change, at least when it first came. And, to this day, I think it can be a beacon of change. But the impact was it gave students a beacon, Black students particularly. It gave us an area to where it’s like, okay, orientation efforts. Can we focus on making sure that they’re coming? Communications are routed through the BSC. Can we get representation that way? Our impact with involvement, it has impacted that. It has allowed Black students to take up leadership roles in areas, whether they’re student workers, whether it is giving tours to different people about the space. It has allowed us to host a majority of different things and even allowed areas like Black Student Union to meet or hold events. It has been a catalyst for the students that were there as well as faculty and staff to understand like hey, if I wanted to come during U-Hour and sit and learn or sit and chat with current students about what I do, maybe opportunities for mentorship, I’m like wow! They already know where they can come to do that or come to get information on how to do it and how to further impact our students. So, I feel like the impact has really been on a community level. It has been broadening. It has allowed faculty, staff from all areas in university leadership, all areas to have a beacon point to not really see the entire Black population but to see, okay, if we wanted to talk to people who see current students or even get feedback, bounce ideas off, how can we best serve the needs of students today? At least it gives the university—this could probably be like the north star along with some of the Black student organizations. And when I talk about another piece, it’s organization, you know. If students have issues or they feel like they can’t go to student government or they want to talk about administrative or other things like that, the Black Student Center Director also can create that environment to where now it’s okay, you have another person in the leadership capacity through his relationships, through her relationships. I don’t want to say like his or her because they might see this on video in a couple of years. It might be a different person. (chuckles) But that director can be another person to carry their ideas forward. And, yeah, so the impact. Again, amazing for what it’s doing now. Can it be better? Yes. We all want the best for that space. But I think ultimately that impact has impacted the Black student life on campus in a decent way. And now, the impact of Black Student Center, I want it to have an impact on policy in the entire university as a whole to where hopefully we get to a point where you ask somebody how to get to the Black Student Center. Hopefully any faculty on campus can let you know where it is, or they understand about the importance of why it’s there and make some time in their role on Cal State San Marcos to visit. Now, when you get into the impact that it had on me, I’m the kind of person—I feel like I would have been who I was regardless of the space. I’m that kind of person. I feel like I would have been a great human being. I would have been a decent human being. But when it comes to the Black Student Center now, my opportunity for change started way before that because I feel like it was just being around my peers in a different way. And I think that initiation started when I got involved with the Black Student Union, even bringing Omega Psi Phi, which is a historically Black fraternity on campus. We are able to join that. And I think just around my peers, and it started with the BSU. It started with involvement with other organizations. But when the BSC came, I’m like man. It kept me grounded. It kept me—My ear was always to the needs of all students, but specifically Black students. And then I also saw myself represented. I felt like I was able to provide feedback and talk to people with similar experiences as me. I was able to get involved with mentorship areas. I think that relationship that I had, even when I became a staff at Cal State San Marcos, I was even able to have a relationship with John and some of the other students and meeting with Black male students and faculty and staff, meeting with all students, holding events, be faculty advisors for different organizations. It was lovely and I think their impact on me, it’s profound. Like I said, it just—I don’t know—it motivated me to do better for them to make sure that I could always support them because that’s what I felt I needed. And I think that’s one of the best parts about this space is, as a Black student, if you choose to get involved, you’re going to notice gaps in what you see or what you felt as a student. And ultimately, when you have a chance to get involved in any capacity, you’re going to figure out, okay, how do I make the next student not feel how I felt if I felt discontent. And when it comes to Black students in Black spaces, they might have extra challenges on how they may feel discontent, whether it’s through microaggressions, whether it’s through lack of understanding, whether it’s through lack of Black leadership, whether it’s anything. So, taking it a step further, especially with Black students, I’m like “Hey. We probably noticed the same things. You probably felt the same way I felt when you first got here. You probably feel like there is not enough black representation at this space. But what can I do to bridge that gap? What can I do to make sure that if I could take a little bit of that away, will I get you to stay another semester? Let’s get you into something that you actually like to do. And if not, how about I point you into the direction of the doctor Muhammads, the doctor Geoffrey Gilmores, the professor Rawlins, the Black Student Center Director. What can we do to make sure somewhere along the way,” —even LaPorcha, over at Student Life when she was here—“what can we do to tap you into someone that can help you? And I think about the people like Gezai Berhane up in Student Life and Leadership or Marilyn McWilliams, Ariel Stevenson. And that was also an impact point for them, too. They are working in Office of Diversity or Student Life and Leadership and Black people as well, the BFSA (Black Faculty Staff Association), all those folks are going right there and getting people involved where they are because it’s like they know you get involved, you start coming, you start insisting, you’re going to have a job to do on the campus. You’re going to associate this campus with a little bit more than just go to class, go home, go to class, go to the BSC, go home. You’re getting some skin in the game. So, I think that’s what everybody started doing and ultimately that’s what—I didn’t need the BSC to do it, but I think the students in the BSC ultimately gave me way more skin in the game than I wanted. But it was necessary, and I loved them for it. Ho: That’s lovely, thank you. Thanks for sharing that. Two more questions, and they can be as short or as long as you want but are there any, I don’t know, behind the scenes stories you want to share? Or anything else you want to say about the Black Student Center or your time at Cal State San Marcos so that one hundred years from now, when you and I are gone, the stories are going to still exist. Anything else? Adamsel: I felt I got some fabulous stories about my time at San Marcos, but I don’t know if I care to go into all of them. I think I did sort of tell one about—I spoke about being a student government leader and, lightly, I’d spoke about addressing the fact that ASI was housing two spaces. And we didn’t house the BSC, the Black Student Center. The Latina Center was not sponsored by us. The Cross-Cultural Center wasn’t sponsored by us. But we sponsored the LGBTQA and Gender Equity Center. And, for me, I think it’s so weird being in the position of leadership and seeing—And it may not even feel like inequity to people. But people can live life and you can be doing something, and you can look at budgeting and everything like that and you can be like “Wow, I’m housing these two spaces.” And then I look at Black Student Center and it’s not equity. They’re not getting the same—They’re not even probably getting the same percentage. Or look at the Cross-Cultural Center. See what people are able to do in the scope of a university and see what the university values. And the university can say they value something, they value Black students. But we don’t all have the same sort of carrot, sort of the same opportunity to have the quality of events, everything. And I think that was one of the things that—It was weird because when I’d spoke about cutting ASI off away from those two spaces, (sighs) man, the directors, the people, the students in those spaces. That was like a funny time for me because I’m a leader. And I spoke to my Board about it, and I was like “Hey man, they’ve got to probably come off this budget.” One, students were not happy. There was a small pocket of students and I don’t want to take anything away from my friends and colleagues in Gender Equity Center and LGBTQA because I don’t think that’s something that a student should protest. But students were right because ASI student fees, they come out of everybody. And I think some of the students were upset that my student fees are coming out of something and paying and sponsoring something I don’t believe in. Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: And as a student, I was like “Man. These people are talking crazy! But they’re right.” Because if I believe in—You could believe in any—I could believe in McDonald’s. If I go choose to spend my money at McDonald’s, that’s great. But I shouldn’t be able to take your money, if you don’t believe in McDonald’s, and spend it at McDonald’s. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: But as students, I’m like how do you combat this? And then you don’t have to combat it. I think the university should create a space to where they’re like ‘Here, we believe in our Native American brothers and sisters whose land this is. Here, we believe in Chicanx, Latinx students. We believe and support Black students. We believe and support all gender identities.’” I’m like “That’s the university. That’s what the university should say.” And if people step into the university, they should understand this is a place where we value all of that. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: Now, if their monies don’t—Their monies are probably going to go to it because they pay tuition. You’re going to pay tuition, that’s cool. But it shouldn’t be in a place where they can attack it. And student government was a place that policies could change, where they can attack it. I’m like I’m president today, but if a president 10 years from now chose to dissolve these places—I mean, it’ll probably be hard to do but under student government these places are under attack. And unless you have all the spaces in that area under attack, then you can’t do it. Unless you have all those spaces getting the same budget, you shouldn’t be able to do it. But the one thing that stuck with me was the amount of students talking to me, as a Black man on campus, loved by some, hated by some. But they came to attack me, to tell me I didn’t care about those spaces. I remember that. They came to tell me I didn’t know the definition. You know, I’m a Black man, senior on campus, Communication major. I love it all. Educated. And they came to tell me “You don’t know the definition of intersectionality. You don’t understand us.” And all I’m trying to do is make sure when I go see Black students in their space that they’ve got the same resources. I’m looking at ASI. We can push out hundreds of events for our different centers that we hold. But for other areas we don’t print. We don’t host events for them. We don’t do that. And I wanted to mentally take ASI away from serving some and make sure we push the university. I think, when I used to have meetings with President (Karen) Haynes, I spoke to her and I was like—I was doing my own research, my own due diligence, going through old meeting minutes to figure out why do we keep these spaces? And Black Student Center came up, Latina Center came up. What made the university take those spaces? And through research, through communication with Dr. Checa, Lorena Checa, and talking to ASI—I was even looking at the inaugural addresses that President Haynes had. And I think sometime along the line, I think it was like 2104 or something like that, she was like “We value the LGBTQA Gender Equity Center.” I took that and ran with it. (chuckles) And I was in a meeting with her, and I was like “People are attacking these ASI spaces. What can we do to make sure these spaces, as well as the Black Student Center, Cross-Cultural Center, Latina Center, I want to make sure that these spaces all have that umbrella.” Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And then, a couple of months later, I think I was on a hiring committee for Dr. Gayle Cole-Avent. (laughs) It was lovely to see her being there in that space, all under the same umbrella like I envisioned, and then ASI being a new catalyst where you see the food pantry vision, the student at events side with CAB (Campus Activities Board), the Board representing student needs. You can’t look at ASI now and try to attack any piece because every single piece services everyone. And not only that, ASI is now that space to where they can connect to every single identity space, cultural space, and again, allow each one to grow in their own right. And I’m so proud of that but I think coming into a space where you’re a Black man at Cal State San Marcos and people are attacking you for wanting everything to be equal, and to let you know even though people necessarily route for you, when something is—if they deem something is attacking them, instead of understanding, sometimes, first they’ll be uncomfortable and then they’ll attack. And then, you just hope years down the line as time goes on, you’re like “Okay. I hope that you can see what my vision was, and your relationship in that, and you lost nothing by promoting me.” And sometimes, I think people think like “If we try to make everything—I’m going to lose something, or my salary might go down or my events or who’s going to do this?” No. You don’t lose nothing by making sure that everyone has a piece of the whole. And yeah, so that was a fun story. Ho: Yeah. Adamsel: I don’t know if all of that is in meeting minutes somewhere. But I laugh thinking about the past. (chuckles) Ho: So, okay. So, to clarify, are you saying that when the Gender Equity Center and the LGBT Center were under ASI, you wanted to move them over to the university but there was push back for you moving those two centers to the university? Adamsel: Yeah. And my Board—I spoke to my executive Board, and I was like “Got a crazy idea.” And when Louis has got crazy ideas, I’m the President. My team, bless them, they supported me. I explained it. I spoke about equity. I spoke about what the vision was, and I hoped they got it. And so, we took that to the main Board of Directors, and I said, “This is what I want to do.” Now, when those Centers and those leaders and some of those students got wind of it, then there was an opportunity for them to come and tell me to my face about their feelings, their emotions, how what I was doing was wrong, how much they hated that thought that we could just push them out. I think they thought ASI is kicking you to the curb because there is some—I don’t know if they thought ASI—They thought Louis was— (laughs) Ho: It was more personal. Adamsel: —and to see ASI, oh—even though we had a great relationship before then, instantly it became why can’t we be a part of ASI anymore? Even though our missions are the same—I mean, are not the same. Our visions are different. What we’re servicing on a day-to-day basis is different. It just became a different relationship instantly the moment I brought that to the forefront. And like I said, I think it’s because the mindset relationship to I’m going to lose something if you do X, Y, or Z. And now, upon explaining it, some of those students in those spaces came to me, “Louis, love you. When I first heard about it, I was not cool with it. But when you explained it, it made sense.” And then some were like “I ain’t talking to you.” (laughs) And that’s understood. And the leadership, pro-staff, students, no matter how they felt, I knew how I felt about equity. I knew how I felt as a Black student. I knew how I felt when you walk into events and you see what people are able to do, the magnitude, the budget, the promotion, and you’re like “Wow, that space can’t do that.” And there are still students to this day that don’t have spaces. But I’m like, “Man. In the future, Cal State San Marcos is going to grow and grow and continue to make spaces for people and identities. If we choose to make spaces, can we ultimately decide that this will be under that umbrella? And student government can be a little bit more of an assisting tool as a jump-off point, as a financial resource for all students.” But I just didn’t want it to be anything that people combatted. And I was really surprised to see pushback. But it happens. Ho: Yeah. For sure. And when you’re in a position like you were in, you’re always going to have to deal with it, I suppose. Adamsel: Yeah. And I think I knew that. But I think pushback is weird coming from people who also very well are attacked. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: People are marginalized. People are—They may face similar struggles or very different struggles than me. But when I get to a point of leadership, I want people—If I’m acknowledging the issues that you may have in society or in life or in navigating the university, I want you to be able to sort of have the same selfless nature and acknowledge how things might not be equal to anyone. And when we can do that, then it’s like okay, we can always have a conversation with anyone because then you’re able to put yourself metaphorically in somebody else’s shoes. And I think that’s the biggest thing. And I think, as a leader, that’s one of the things that allowed me to get along with just about anyone and everyone because I’m able to talk to you and be like “Okay. Have you considered this? Or is there anything about you and your needs that I need to consider? And through conversation and communication, we get to the bottom of that.” But there are sometimes there’s people that don’t want to talk. And they don’t want to have to develop and change their views, even for a little bit, because that means I have to give something up. And if you think you have to give something up just for somebody else to be comfortable, to feel seen, to have that same equity that you do, then I’m like you don’t really want change. You just want to be comfortable. You want to be there by yourself on an island of comfort. Yeah. Exactly. And I think you can expect it from certain people, certain groups. Like if somebody is blatantly, overtly racist, you can expect it from that person. But when it comes from a person, you’re like “Oh, you can be a person of color. You can be a marginalized community. You can be—” You know, even in my community. It’s like you expect yourself to have the same views and values. You may not. And that’s okay. But you just push through it. And you learn and see okay, what can I do to bypass that pushback? And try to—I think that was one thing special, as a Black male student leader. I used to have to be calm, reserved. And I used to have to think strategically, to the point, because I know how I can be perceived on a day-to-day basis. And I know in certain spaces, you’re not going to come talk to me. And in certain places, I would be disrespected. But I’m just like “Wow. It’s crazy.” Because if I lose my cool, I could be taken off into a totally different direction. (talks as if mimicking students) “Oh, he doesn’t care about us. What a mean person!” So, I understood how—even going back, I understood my relationship to people and my relationship to the university. And it’s a crazy thing to acknowledge, but that was one of the things that, being a student there, being student government president, working in leadership, catering to students, and even being a professional staff, I always had to be mindful of who I was in my relationship to people because I knew, especially based on who I am, I could easily be misconstrued. Ho: Thank you. Okay. Are there any questions that I should have asked but didn’t? Adamsel: Hhmmm. (laughs) Nah. I mean I don’t’ know. I have no idea. (Jenn laughs) Well, actually, you didn’t talk about the social justice activism. Ho: Yes. I did not ask that question. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: Would you like to go into that? How has Black social justice and activism, such as the Civil Rights Movement, Feminism, the Natural Hair Movement, and Black Lives Matter affected you? Thank you for calling it out. Adamsel: I think those movements affected me in different ways all over. When I think about the Civil Rights Movement and different things like that, I correlate the Civil Rights Movement going back to—think about Martin Luther King but even thinking about Martin Luther King and communities like Black communities in that day, pushing for equality, equity, and civil rights. I think back to education. I think of Carter G. Woodson, Mis-education of the Negro. I think about people pushing for Black people to be educated. And so, when I look at the Black populations on campus, I think back to, man, equity. What are we doing to change that generation from the generation before us? What are we doing to push more Black professionals into the workforce? Hopefully with as little overhead as possible, and getting them into the career fields, one, that they love but also making sure that they have the network not only to do what they love and then succeed and excel at it. When it came to the Natural Hair Movement, I’m in that all day, with the little bit that I have. But I think that was something where when I’d seen the Natural Hair Movement, I saw that take place on campus to where men and women in our spaces, you know, “Let’s create these events that our natural hair shows” and getting more Black businesses into our university and making sure when Black students are at campus at Cal State San Marcos, they know the local barbers, the local hair stylists that can do what they need to do, whether it’s protective styles, wear your natural hair. I like that because it builds a sense of community within our group but then it also builds a sense of collaboration in our area, increasing that network. When I think about feminism, I think back to Professor Michelle Holling. I think about when I took a feminist rhetorical theory course from her. She’s one of the greatest professors ever. But she’s tough. She going to give you the grade that you deserve. (laughs) And a great professor. But then, I think learning about feminism and learning about the multi-layered areas in feminism and how ideas about feminism—I just didn’t. I looked at my relationship to who I was based on what feminism was talking about and really, I’m like, man. I don’t see myself in this space because a lot of what you’re preaching, some of the feminist ideals from the beginning, it has racism in it. Black women, it’s like we could promote March for Women’s Rights but I’m like, yeah. If you tell me white women got to vote—what was it? Like 54 years before Black women got the vote—there’s inequity there. And if you don’t—I forget—Elizabeth Cady Stanton and everybody on those beginnings, if you’re preaching and you’re sponsoring the beginnings of feminism and there’s racism, I can’t be a part of it. But when I got to learn more about different women in the Black rhetorical feminism and seeing pockets of where Black women have to face racism and sexism in society, I feel like it was very intercommunity focused. And I felt like I chose to look at it as something like—I don’t want to disregard any woman if they’re feeling oppressed or if they have real life things that they’re dealing with, whether it’s sexual assault, abuse, even inequities in pay. These are all bad things. But I think I love to bring it back to focus on where’s my relationship in it and how can I look at it to where I’m the most involved. And I think that brought it back to it looks at family. It looks at the women in your immediate circle. It can look at your relationship with women all over. But, instead of trying to put a mind frame on “Do you love it all?” No. (chuckles) When it comes to feminism, I don’t like all the history. And there are so many different types. I did enjoy researching all about the different variations of feminism. Man, when you dive into it, some are radicals. Some are not. Some are not inclusive. Some are really inclusive. So, I really like that, breaking those things down. And I think it really starts with self. It really starts with how you’re raised, and really looking at how can you impact the community and the area and the women that you’re ultimately in communication with every day? And if you start to see signs of “Hey, somebody’s disrespectful. Somebody did something, the wrong thing.” Or “How do I understand Title IX regulations?” If somebody comes to me and “This is what happened to me!” or “Somebody took advantage of me,” did I do my due diligence to understand, on this campus, do I know how to offer assistance? Do I know how to report, if I’m a mandated reporter? What can I do to make sure, ultimately, that any woman that’s around me, that I come in contact with even if I don’t know her for about an hour or something, if they come to me with needs or issues, even outside the lens of I could take from feminism, but just being a great person, or being a good person, and making sure you’re assisting, or you can. And I think—And stepping outside the box and saying “I’m a guy. I don’t do it. I’m a Black guy. That never happened with me with you.” Or “I don’t think that could happen because I didn’t see it like that.” Being able to take a step back and like “Man. I never thought of it like that.” Or “I didn’t know that that could be misconstrued.” Or “I didn’t know that was a thing.” Can I educate myself? Can I learn how to help? Can I be a better me for the women in my life or my friend, my colleagues? I think I try every day. I’m not going to come on here and say, “Louis was a feminist.” But I’m going to come on here and say through research, through history, through learning from great professors like Professor Holling, learning from classmates and women in my life, ultimately, that’s one of the things that I feel like that affected me to make sure like “Man. I need to know about how it’s affecting people, near and dear to me.” And even if they’re not near and dear to me, how can my relationship still be on a level playing field? And the last topic was Black Lives Matter. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: How has that affected me? And, for me, man. I think Black Lives Matter has affected me in a multitude of ways. And it has been funny, because I don’t really talk about Black Lives Matter. But one of the things I think about Black Lives Matter is like uh, it’s a basic statement. And it’s basic to me because I’m Black. I know I matter. You couldn’t tell me anything otherwise. It’s just common sense to me. And I see people shouting it. And I’m like “Oh, that’s great! Black lives do matter, yeah. I fuck with that.” I mean—my language— (seems embarrassed) I believe in that. (both laugh) But I think one of the things that it really affects me differently when I look at an organization like Black Lives Matter and I don’t know if I like all the tactics that I see from it. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: And I say that because I’m not a fan of Black male death. And, you know, I’m a Black male in America. But when I see death, I almost wonder—You know, I think back to throughout history we have big signs of death. You have Emmett Till. You think about police brutality with Rodney King. I’m from Watts, so I think about that. I think back to even growing up in places where you’re like, man, a Black man could have been murdered or shot. Or you see it on the news, police brutality, this, that, and the third. And it’s, for me, I’m not taking away any good that they might be able to do. But, for me, one of the things that sucks is just seeing Black male death. And you can see it in recent actions like George Floyd. And there’s so many names, even to this day. It has probably been a lot of Black male and I don’t even want to negate Black female death, Black trans men and women death. But I’m just like man. So, imagine you’re living in a society where every time a Black male, female, any identity is killed, they get a segment on TV. You probably get to see the death, their struggle. There’s a lot of reposting, re-Tweets. Before, it used to be—Like I think something that happened, because I think there was something—I think it was in Missouri or, I forget. But it was a death of a Black man, but I think it was on the—something bad had happened with something else. But I think I even was at school at Cal State San Marcos, and I could see the university didn’t want to talk about that. But they chose to talk about another topic. So, sometimes you see businesses. But now, it’s the hot thing to do. Businesses will talk about the black death or say “We stand with you.” But I wonder, when it comes down to it, how much do you really stand with that group if it’s not representative of whether it’s in your hiring, whether it’s in your policies, whether anything. But I think it has become easier for people to say it without somebody else looking at them. And when I look at organizations like Black Lives Matter, I’m not too invested in them because I live—this is my daily life. This is what we live through. We live through relationships. We live through how people perceive us. We make our own understanding of the world. But I’m, personally, not a fan of Black death and the highlighting of Black death in any facet. And I don’t really know how, when it comes to all of that, you’ve got to think. A lot of this stuff happened when I was in school. But after I graduated, I also worked at Cal State San Marcos for the Emergency Management Department. And my department was actually conveniently located in the Police Department. Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: And that also was like another thing because it’s like you get to see the differences. I get to see officers, and I like officers in that capacity. But then, I get to also see officers and I’m like I don’t really know, don’t really have a relationship with you. I’m not saying I had a relationship with every single officer at Cal State, but I can also say that I’ve never had a relationship with every single officer in the world. But based on what’s going on in the United States, I could see like “Wow. It’s tragic out here.” So, for me, I think, yeah, just going back to it. Black Lives Matter is not something that, personally, I’m like running to the streets to protest for. I don’t. Because until some of the—I don’t know. I think it has to be a different way to protest for what you need without promoting that death factor. Ho: So, okay. So, to clarify, are you saying that because of Black Lives Matter, we’re witnessing so much death of Black men without seeing an increase in equity in other areas? Adamsel: Yeah. And I don’t even want to put that on Black Lives Matter. Ho: Okay. Adamsel: But this is an organization that they will do their work. But, ultimately, out of their work you see a lot of organizations making statements, pushing out this narrative because they think without making a statement back to Black people, it might be a hindrance to their business, their operations, their reputation. When you focus on people, business, operations, reputation, oh! Snap! There’s a financial impact. People might not want to shop here. Somebody might even think there might be a protest and then somebody might use a protest as an opportunity to loot this store. And it might not be a Black person. There might be anybody. But I think it’s in their best interest, it’s in the organization’s best interest, to focus on the Black population. And I don’t think it started with Black Lives Matter, showcasing that. But I think it has increased. I think people look at that organization as a beacon. And there is a ton of Black grassroots organizations that are out there trying to make change, trying to do different things. I won’t say I’m educated about all of the work that is taking place within Black Lives Matter and what is taking place in all those grassroots organizations. But me personally, talking about Black Lives Matter and how it has affected me, I’m like man. Any Black person, I think, when you look at Black death over and over, not even only Black people, you look at outside the community, you’re like, okay. How do people feel if they see somebody Black on the news die? Ultimately, their head is like “Oh, another one.” And go about their day. Ho: Hhmmm. Adamsel: It has become so repetitive to the point where it’s just like you sort of become numb to it. And I never want to be numb to Black death. But, ultimately, with the push of social media, these graphic scenes, these things that—They need justice. It needs to be brought to light. But I’m like, man. It affects people. It affects me. And I just don’t want it to affect me to the point where I’m just numb, completely. (chuckles) Ho: Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah, you’re seeing it too much and you’re afraid that you will start to become numb because it’s just everywhere now. Adamsel: And like you said, after a while—I don’t know how other Black people feel. I feel how I’m going to feel. But, after a while, you start looking and you start wondering, when will things change? Have they changed? If they’ll ever change? And right now, you can’t answer that. But have they changed from when your parents were going through it, or your family went through it to now? I can’t say they have. I can say, “Oh, it’s visualized a lot more.” So, at what point do you get away from visualization and you get towards action, you get towards new policies, you get towards actual protections for people who are people but they’re not being treated like such? And then, when they’re not being treated like people, why is that? I know it’s going to be a sound bite. I know it’s going to be popular. This is probably going to make news media, companies money. Because everybody’s infuriated. Everybody’s enraged. They’re the talk of the town. And I just wish Black death wasn’t the talk of the town. I wish it never had to get to that. Ho: Mm-hmm. Thank you. What else have we not covered that you would like to cover? Adamsel: Um. Ho: Anything? Adamsel: Let’s see. (appears to be reading something off-screen) External…Institutional… Ho: And did you think of any more people that you’d like to give a shout out about? Adamsel: I did not. Like I said, they’re probably going to have to come text me and talk to me, if I forgot. (both laugh) But no. I don’t know if I have anything more that’s major. I think I probably spoke more in-depth than I thought I ended up needing to. But it was good. For me, it was a good conversation. I didn’t know it was going to go down that path or even we were going to get in-depth in all those questions. But I do appreciate it. I mean I do like the level of support that the library is trying to do to bring these thoughts together, I guess, before we get too old, and we start forgetting. Ho: Yeah. Adamsel: Especially like the part we played in all of it. Ho: Mm-hmm. That is really important, for sure. Adamsel: Yeah. And when you all showcase this, especially with memory, is this something if a student, in 2059, they’ll be scrolling, they’ll be able to go “Oh, University Archives, Black Student Center origin,” or something like that? Ho: Yeah. Basically. I don’t know that it would just be a bunch of videos available to a random scroller. But, for future researchers who are interested in the university’s history or the Black student experience on our school or in general in America or California or, you know, student life identity-focused centers, things like that. It’ll definitely be available to researchers. Adamsel: I hope that they have a great experience learning more about that. I feel like sometimes, when you learn more about the Black students experience in California or probably in most schools that probably are not, even historically, Black universities, but when I think of a Black student’s relationship with higher education and with inequity in the world, and then you play that into the normal wealth gap with African Americans, Black people in America, with anybody else, it’s a crazy contrast between how many of us are going to universities is a crazy contrast with inequities. And you would think more people would be like “Oh, let’s do what we can to make that look like a better option.” And it doesn’t start at college. It starts with the K-12 system as well. So, it’s just like our relationship with the education system between what we know is designed to make people, ultimately, better off, there’s something that’s going on that makes us look like that institution is not for me. I don’t want to be there. And I’m just like, man. It sucks. But I can’t act like college is for everyone. I can’t act like it appeals to everyone. It appeals to all of us differently. Ho: Mm-hmm. Adamsel: I just wish there was more to offer everybody who chose to go that route because there is so few of us as is. Ho: Yeah. It would be great if every person in America saw college as an option. Even if they chose not to go— Adamsel: Mm-hmm. Ho: —if they at least knew that it was an option that was viable for them if they wanted to go. Adamsel: Yeah. Ho: That would be ideal for sure. Adamsel: Exactly. And I think that’s very true. Ho: So, if there is nothing else, I will stop the recording. Is there anything you want to end with before I stop the recording? Adamsel: Uh, no. I mean, I think the biggest thing is when it comes to ending, I’m very happy with the growth that the Center, Cal State San Marcos, has afforded me in my growth. I went to the university at 19. So, they’re some of the best years of growing in who I was as a leader. I think I knew who I was as a leader when I came. But through a mentorship, through role models, through networking, I think I became an even better person than I ever hoped I’d be by the time I left. And really staying connected, being able to be aligned with Black leaders, leaders of all different identities—because I used to only think I could only learn from Black people—but college taught me I could almost learn from anyone who is willing to teach, who’s willing to give out that helping hand. And it was a lovely place for me to grow. And I’m happy with the growth that I’ve achieved there. And I’m ultimately happy with the students that I’ve been able to see grow there as well and graduate. And even people that—It might not have been somebody who had their hand out for me, who looked like me when I first got to the university. But I was able to step up and get help from a lot of different people. And so, when somebody else came behind me, I just wanted to make sure okay, we continue to build that bridge and we make sure that these new students have the opportunity that wasn’t afforded to me. And even looking back to friends, Tiffaney, Jamaéla, even friends I met along the way, everyone was sort of like that key network to help keep Black students afloat and, ultimately, stay engaged through university and break all the barriers that we even thought were there. So, thanks to San Marcos. Thanks to the University Library. I know you all still got the mural probably in there. Ho: Yeah. Hopefully it stays there! Yeah, it’s beautiful. Adamsel: Yeah. I know. It’s amazing. But thank you for even interviewing. Ho: All right. Thanks for being part of it, Louis. Adamsel: No problem. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=AdamselLouis_HoJennifer_2021-05-28.xml AdamselLouis_HoJennifer_2021-05-28.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adamsel, Louis. Interview May 28th, 2021 Description An account of the resource In this interview, Louis Adamsel speaks on his time as an undergraduate student at California State University San Marcos, aspects of his life as a student leader, his experience as a Black student and, later, as a staff member. Adamsel discusses his advocacy for the creation of the Black Student Center and the purpose the BSC serves to students, including the necessity of having a variety of resources in order to retain underserved students. He also speaks on mentorships and partnerships, both within the Black community and across identities and spaces. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-08 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos. Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos -- Staff California State University San Marcos -- Students Civil rights Student Success Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-05-28 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Louis Adamsel Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Moreno Valley (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Watts (Los Angeles, Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Louis Adamsel Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In copyright.</a> Activists and activism Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Seth Stanley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gezai Berhane OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Berhane, Gezai. Interview March 29th, 2023. SC027-37 00:52:04 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos ; California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; California State University San Marcos. Student Activities ; California State University San Marcos. Greek life ; Refugees -- Eritrea ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Black experience in America Gezai Berhane Seth Stanley Video 1:|13(11)|24(17)|34(6)|45(6)|61(14)|72(13)|83(14)|95(4)|105(14)|118(16)|132(10)|144(8)|159(16)|171(14)|183(8)|197(6)|208(3)|220(15)|231(7)|249(14)|263(4)|273(7)|285(3)|301(7)|313(5)|323(10)|335(7)|346(16)|360(15)|371(17)|381(8)|395(19)|410(7)|419(6)|429(8)|442(17)|453(12)|464(16)|475(3)|486(12)|500(6)|518(4)|528(5)|539(3)|552(10)|564(8)|573(16)|588(13)|599(6)|610(17)|624(7)|640(8)|643(12) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a06b713a6fd9a626ce2c5e87acc28e76.mp4 Other video 0 Introduction and Background Seth Stanley introduces Gezai Berhane, who discusses his background as an Eritrean refugee seeking education in the USA. Additionally, Berhane discusses how he came to work for California State University San Marcos. education ; refugee 0 266 CSUSM Early Days Berhane remembers his experience at CSUSM in the early 1980s as the first graduating class. This experience contributed to his later work at the university. 0 427 Cross-Cultural Center Berhane describes the beginning stages of the Cross-Cultural Center, then known as Multicultural Programs, and it's impacts upon the CSUSM campus. Before diversity could be implemented, Berhane considered the center a symbol for future progress. This includes the foundation of future centers such as the Black Student Center or the Women and Gender Equity Center. 0 829 Memories Berhane briefly speaks about his favorite part of the Cross-Cultural Center in its early days, before speaking more in detail about his experience as an Eritrean-American. Dealing with ignorance and prejudices, Berhane illuminates the importance of diversity and inclusivity education. From his perspective, Berhane witnessed the lackluster American education and media systems that caused such ignorance. Berhane stresses that ignorance should not be blamed upon individuals, but a system-at-large. 0 1150 Impacts of the Cross-Cultural Center and CSUSM Memories of unexpected encounters in the CCC were among Berhane's memorable highlights. Beyond this, Berhane shares that he cannot necessarily separate the impacts of the CCC from CSUSM. Among the first graduating class, he had a unique experience in that he experienced CSUSM over three decades. The Cross-Cultural Center was one part of his work at the university, and considers his total experience at CSUSM impactful. 0 1397 Student Involvement and Orientation As Student Activities Director, student orientation was where Berhane stressed the importance of involvement. Berhane challenged students to stay engaged with their communities. With the Orientation Team, Berhane remembers the bonding experience of a weekend camping trip. 0 1743 Greek Life The course of Greek Life at CSUSM is detailed by Berhane. Beginning in 1993, when Greek Life was not fully recognized, when Berhane was more directly involved. 0 1957 Student Residential Life Before the main CSUSM dormitories were built, Berhane defines his role in facilitating student residential life at leased apartments. Berhane also discusses memories of involving his family in his work, in addition to perceiving careless waste. Berhane offers his perspective as an Eritrean refugee on American consumerism. 0 2245 Thirty Years at CSUSM Berhane and his family lived in San Marcos and bore witness to the development of the city and university. Berhane considers this experience to have given him life. He is beyond grateful for this experience, and instilled this love for knowledge in his children. 0 2499 Student Center Coexistence Berhane refuses to compare or contrast student centers against one another. He considers every center has its individual purpose which changes over time. Beginning in 1992, Berhane was passionate about providing space for those in need. As a Black student, he recalls the desire for a Black student club. This experience informed his later work to provide services to an ever-evolving student body. The importance of centers / service providers reaching students is also discussed. 0 2834 Advice for Future Inclusivity Regarding the future, Berhane stresses vigilant attention to underserviced communities, including students of Asian descent, who do not have an identity-specific space. Berhane stresses the importance of service providers / centers reaching and engaging with students. 0 Gezai Berhane is a California State University San Marcos alumnus, where he was part of the first graduating class. Since his graduation, Berhane was a CSUSM employee until his retirement in 2021. Most recently he worked as Associate Director of Operations. In this interview, Berhane discusses his immigration journey, involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, campus Greek life, and other student centers at California State University San Marcos. Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley, and today I'm interviewing Gezai Berhane. This is for the California State University San Marcos, Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. Today is March 29th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Gezai, thank you for interviewing with me today. I'll start off with a- with some questions. To start off, could you tell us a bit about your background and what led you to become a part of the CSUSM (California State University San Marcos) community? Gezai Berhane: Well, that's a good question, and thanks for this opportunity. My background is, uh, I was born and raised in Eritrea, East Africa. I came to the United States as a refugee in 1983, so I've been here for a long time. But, um, back home when I was back home in Africa, in East Africa, I did not have an opportunity to finish high school. So, my goal, my aspiration was to at least finish high school. So, once I got the opportunity to go to school here, I tried to finish high school, but I was adult, so they say, “You can't even be here in the high school.” So, they kicked me out, but they told me, I can finish high school, uh, through something called the GED (General Educational Development test)? Something like that. And so, I did that. And then, um, I moved to San Marcos in (19)85, where California was cheaper than where I initially landed in the United States, which was South Dakota. A big difference. And so, I took advantage of the opportunity at-- enrolling at Palomar College. Uh, I did two years at Palomar College. Then I got interested more and more in school. By the time I finished Palomar College, Cal State San Marcos was coming. It was a great opportunity and I couldn't resist that. I had plans to go beyond the two-years degree because I missed four years of high school. So at least four years of high school, equivalent to me was continuously going to a four-year college. And so San Marcos came in, so I became one of the first Cal State San Marcos students in 1990. That brought a lot of opportunity actually for me as a new university, uh, starting from scratch. For me not having any other experience coming from another country and not knowing a whole lot about college, I was involving myself at Cal State San Marcos because every time they need somebody, volunteer, student assistance, do this and that. I was just trying to be as involved as I can, just, and as a result of that, after graduating 1992, among the first 1992 graduates, I was, then I got hired to, as a student, I was involved with student organizations, with Associated Students (Incorporated, i.e. student governance) and staff. So, my involvement led to a permanent position here on campus. And that first job and things like that was in the Dean of Students Office. And then by 1993, in the beginning, we were assigned a department to start a new department called Student Activities and Alumni Services. That is the root cause of the Student Life and Leadership, the Student and Residential Life (campus departments). I've been part of that since, again, I can say even though as a student, I started in 1990, I was also an employee or student assistant with the campus. So I have seen the growth of the campus from day one as a result of that-- Cross-Cultural Center, I know we'll get back to it, but that is as a result of growing departments and services to a growing population. So that's what (it) looks like a little bit on my background about who I am, as it relates to Cal State San Marcos. Stanley: And you were saying you were part of the first graduate, one of the first graduating classes of CSUSM. Could you maybe describe what the university was like in its early days? Berhane: Well, I don't know if you, if you wanna call it the university. We were taking all our classes at the, well, we used to, still refer to it, Cal State Jerome's. It was office buildings by, near the Jerome’s (furniture store) building. But luckily, SDSU (San Diego State University) had an extended classes in those areas. So, Cal Sate San Marcos didn't start it from the beginning. So there was some kind of structure as far as classrooms and things like that at Cal State Jerome's. So, all of my two years’ classes were taken there. But we graduated from the, uh, Craven Circle. We had our first graduation right there. We used the stairs, um, as a, as chairs for the guests, but we had chairs for the graduates, I was one of those. It was (a) very tight-knit community. We knew each other, the students knew each other. The faculty, staff, administrators knew each other by name, by everything, and all kinds of activities, including playing soccer with some faculty members at the Bradley Park. I mean, all kinds of stuff. Like, you know, if you were with the Dean of students, uh, you just called them by name. you as President Stacy, you were President Stacy, he’s Bill Stacy's office. Right. Because everything was just community. We knew each other. It was a community. The faculty, on the other hand, had a task to make sure that they're building a compatible, very viable university as a new university. So there was some challenge- they tried to challenge us, the students, but we were all re-entry, returners, transfers, no freshmen at the time. So, we met the challenge and exceeded the challenge. Within one year, we started Associated Students (student governance). Okay? We, I mean, a lot of things, because we were all mature returners and all of that. We met all the challenges and pa- and way beyond. So as a student, I just felt like I was so grateful for all of that opportunity. And so, my experience as a student here was great. Stanley: That's great. I love that all that does, the community and faculty knowing each other, stuff like that. Anyway, moving on to the Cross-Cultural Center, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Berhane: Okay. So this was, um, like, you know 10 years or later that the Cross-Cultural Center was implemented and, and whatnot. Uh, so the department, that the Cross-Cultural Center was under was named Student and Residential Life. We became Student and Residential Life. Just (to) give you a little bit of background, why residential life and student activities? Um, in the early, 2000s, the, the Division of Student Affairs, had a reorganization of certain departments on campus. Our department, the student, the Center for Student Involvement, which dealt with student organization, recognition leadership programs, and overseeing ASI (Associated Students Incorporated), ASI elections- was just called Center for Student Involvement. It initially was Student Activities and Alumni Services. Alumni Services split when it became, when it remained Student Activities only, we called it Center for Student Involvement, CSI. That then, like I say, as a result of the division's effort to try to reorganize the division in different departments, they brought the Residential Life and the Student Activities together. Once they brought us together, we decided to find a new name for these two departments coming together. So eventually we came up with Student and Residential Life, SRL. And so, while we were functioning on as a, an SRL, Cross-Cultural Center was added again, I mean, to that department. So we used to call it “C3.” We used to call it Multicultural Programs. I mean, C3 was the most popular name for Cross-Cultural Center. C3. And because the department, the SRL and the office that was assigned for Cross-Cultural Center were together, you just step outside, pass the bathroom, you go to the Cross-Cultural Center. It was just, again, even though we knew we were all part of one department overall, SRL. But having that we have to step outside and go and sit there and they started it with couches, not just chairs. It was just comfortable to go there and engage with the students who were there. Stanley: Do you, uh, remember any sort of activities or programs that the early Cross-Cultural program were, making happen? Berhane: I don't recall all the different, I know there is a, a big event that is, I don't know what it's called now that you do every year, but the, it was more for me, my memory in the fourth floor on Craven Hall (Administrative Building), on the fourth floor. Uh, when we were there initially it was more, okay, here is a program, a space for students to come and engage with each other and sit and relax and have a place to go to. Uh, but it has been a long time. So, I can't say I remember doing this and that with them. But I know there is something as a result of that, whatever started earlier, now there is an annual program and event that Cross-Cultural Center (inaudible). Stanley: So, um, in what ways would you say the Cross-Cultural Center has impacted CSUSM? Berhane: Well, I don't know if it is an impact to CSUSM, but I know Cal State San Marcos from the beginning has been saying diversity, the value of diversity has always been on the mission statement from day one. So the university to show that they are, you know, that being the first center for Multicultural Programs, you know, this is way before there was Black Student Center, Latino Center (Latin /x Center), Native American Center (California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center), and all of that. To say, let's start with something to at least say, call it a center for cross-cultural, you know, multicultural programs. To me, it was an indication, even though it was after many, many years of hearing the word diversity as part of our mission, serving a diverse community, all of that, to start with something like that, I think it was, a great initiative, it was. And look what happened after that. Okay, so there's Multicultural Programs. What do we do? What is next? What is next? And I think it's a great start. It helped the university start with something successful. Completion of that (Cross-Cultural Center) led to different centers, as you can see where we are right now. I think that's how I look at it, because like I say, I've been hearing the word diverse community, diversity, divers(ity), you know, our mission is to serve our population, diverse population and all of that. So I think it was a good start. So I would say it was a good experience for the university to start with something like that, as opposed to specifically, you know, as one of the different centers that we have right now. Stanley: Yeah. And you say you keep hearing the word diversity, but, would you say that the Cross-Cultural Center actually did have an impact on creating a more inclusive campus on, at CSUSM? Berhane: Well, like everything else, you know, if something’s to... to have impact or something’s to be popular or to be something, it has to be known to more people. Even though, with us through orientations, or everything else, as a campus, again it was more of a, campus with no housing on-campus, everybody was more, you live somewhere else, you come to classes and you will leave. So in the beginning, to be honest, there was not a whole lot of people using it (The Cross-Cultural Center). Uh, only a small group of people would use it. So if you’re there more often, you bring your friends. If I’m there more often, I’ll bring maybe more of my friends. But to the campus as a whole, uh, it was symbolic to have that, but I'm not sure to what, how much that impacted more student population at, you know, at that time. Stanley: Um-hmm. What is the, what's a favorite memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center, um, and how did it maybe affect you personally or professionally? Berhane: Um, I think I mentioned this before, when we talked (before the interview). It's more, um, you know, I work in the office. I’m with the students a lot. You know, many times I'm doing leadership programs, meeting with other students or with other staff members and things like that. So, to me, the Cross-Cultural Center was a place to go and do nothing but just relax. Because it was couches in there and then you're not there seriously to engage in a very, you know, other than just being there to have fun with people and just chat how students are doing. And so to me, it was a place to go, and whether it's through the Associate Directors that are working there, or whether it's through the students who are sitting there, it was a place where you can be free to chat with people and not really be doing work at that time. Uh, so that was how I looked at the center, in my memories, like saying, the couches are always in my head (laughs). Stanley: Um, looks like we have enough time for these questions. Um, since the Cross-Cultural Center has a lot to do with diversity, inclusiveness, and like being more (inaudible), I noticed when I was researching you that you've had a lot of trouble with people knowing where Eritrea is, and you're telling people, I do remember reading a newspaper article from, I think it was 1990, where you say, “Where is Eritrea? People keep asking me,” and I just wanted to say, do you still feel frustration, towards those who do not know where Eritrea is on the map? And do you still find yourself explaining where it is on a regular basis? Berhane: Well, in the beginning, before I knew how much students actually had a chance to learn about history or geography, it was, “Why don't they know,” you know? “They go to school.” We, when we were in elementary school, we knew all the different countries in the world and who the president was, what the capital city is, and then in the case of African countries when they became independent and things like that. Like it’s initiated in, I mean, like I said earlier, Eritrea when I left was at war for independence. So but, it was not covered in the mainstream media as a country fighting for independence. So when I came here, at least I had expected some people to know, because we had Americans stationed in Eritrea, you know, in the fifties, sixties, seventies. So some people should know where Eritrea is. So, for me to say it is near Sudan, it’s by the Red Sea, it’s near Ethiopia. And so in the beginning I was seriously educating people, but later on it became like, funny to me. It is like, “Where is Eritrea?” Well, the first question always is, “What's your name?” “I'm Gezai.” “Where are you from?” “I'm from Eritrea.” “Where is that?” (Stanley laughs) And then it became like, okay, I'm not gonna spend a whole lot of time educating you because you have no clue. So I'll say it's, uh, a little farther than, uh, L.A. just by Santa Barbara. Oh, okay. I haven't heard of that. (laughs) No, you wouldn't have heard of that, but I'm sure you heard of Santa Barbara. So the easiest answer for me is, yeah, just go look at it, (laughs), and there was no Google where, you know, we got the search and things like that. So it became funny afterwards because then it's like, it's just a waste of time too. And then if you say, I'm from Africa. Oh, but I've never heard of Eritrea. Well, that's too bad you never heard of Eritrea but that's where I came from. So, I think I transitioned from taking it seriously to maybe blaming a little bit more the educational system that we are not educating people even, you know, at the bachelor's level in the history class or geography. There was a, um, a map that was given, and we have countries identified here so it says, identify where these countries are, you know, on the map. People don't even know the United States, the States where they're supposed to be located! So then I realized, you know, it's not their fault. They just didn't have enough education about different countries, let alone, I mean about their country let alone about other people's countries. So I don't blame people. I don't get frustrated anymore. I'm like, “This is funny.” Depending on how I am interacting with the person, I can either say I'm in Africa or I can just say I'm near Santa Barbara, and that will take care of the business (both laugh). Stanley: Well, love that. It's (inaudible), just in one ear, out the other. Oh, that's cool- Berhane: That's good. Yeah. Stanley: Um, going back to the Cross-Cultural Center, you said that you would spend a lot of time just having fun in there. Could you recall a time with a specific person or a memory inside the Cross-Cultural Center that you remember fondly? Berhane: I think it was more with the second associate director or the first associate directors, and not necessarily with the students, because the names of the students, again, twenty years later, I'm getting too old to remember all of that, even though I can see their faces. It's harder to recall their names right now. But I think it's more the interaction with, um, unscheduled interaction with whether it’s with the associate director, or students who are regular. We used to call it regular students, but to be specifically telling you about individual students, it would be very hard for me. And I'll be lying to you and I don't wanna do that. Stanley: Okay. Well, uh, in what ways, uh, if any, did your involvement with the Cross Culture Center help you expand or develop as a person? And how has that impacted your career or personal life? Berhane: I mean, (laughs), as I said, as an involved person on campus, my professional and personal life as it grows, that I have gained as being part of this campus, it's enormous. It's countless, to tell you the truth, I grew up here. So Cal State San Marcos is home for me. I don't think there's a lot of other people who have started here and remained here for thirty years. Okay? I just retired in 2020-- at the end of 2021, which is thirty years later, since the university started. So the impact that grows personal and professional for me, I can't specifically try to address as a Cross-Cultural Center is, but I think my interaction with people who work at the Cross-Cultural Center, students who came to the Cross-Cultural Center, and being part of student activities. The leadership programs that this department has been planning and going, you know, whether it's going there, whether it is supporting the, uh, initial paperwork and whatnot, working with that group in general is part of my personal and professional growth. So I can't really say specifically and directly this and that. For me, it's more a, uh, the total sum of my overall experience, not just Cross-Cultural Center. Student Activities, Associated Students, the Dean of Students, the whole entire division. And in, and faculty too, as you indicated earlier. You know, if I have interactions with faculty, because we had to work with faculty members because they were supposed to be the advisor of student activity, I mean, student organization advisors, we had to work with faculty as well in doing some kind of orientation about their role and leadership programs, and how to help the student leaders and stuff. So for me, my primary function was in student activities, working with student leaders, student clubs, and organizations. So, the Cross-Cultural Center is, has been, was part of, part and parcel of Student Activities, but my main function wasn't directly that. So. But like I say, as within one department, we have orientation programs, for example. We had Greek Life, we had (to) oversee ASI (Associated Students, Inc.). All of those combined are the result of who I am, as opposed to try to, you know, narrowly say, yeah, this is how, and what the Cross-Cultural Center has left me as an impact. I don't wanna commit to that. Stanley: Let's go broader then. Berhane: Okay Stanley: Um, as a student activities director, were there any activities that you organized that you were particularly connected to or the, uh, moment on campus where you felt that you were promoting inclusiveness and diversity? Berhane: Well, I mean, a lot of the programs that we used to do from Student Activities is more... Okay, so if I notice that certain student groups that are not active, that are not really engaged, and what we used to do is go into orientations from the beginning to say, “You gotta remain active on campus.” This is, look at me, I never dreamed of working on campus or the university, ever whatsoever. You go to school, to college and you graduate, and you go look for a job somewhere else, but I'm here. So, students, you need to get engaged, you need to get involved. So, me encouraging all the new students that were coming in, or if they were here, and if I get to interact, I like to walk around and see if people are out there who would like to say hello, if they're not engaged, if they're not the student organizations. And within student organizations, if they're not taking leadership roles and things like that, I encourage people at whatever level they are. And so that's, you know, for me, I was fond of encouraging students to take leadership roles, to stay engaged, to work on campus, even at least as a student activity, and I mean as student assistants. And so for me it's more the day-to-day interactions with students, not just in generally, I mean. So, every year we know student organizations have to renew their contract every year. We have to do some leadership program trainings every year. And that's where you meet all the student leaders, and that's how you continue to engage with them and continue to advise them and continue to help them grow. And so for me, it's more, it's really hard to say yes, thirty years of experience is like to narrow it into one event or into one program. I've been part of student, I mean, ASI for example, Associated Students, (Inc.), we started with paper ballots, you know, like check-in the paper ballots. Then we moved to scantrons where you can do scantron, you (Stanley) probably don't remember. And then we had to go move up to online voting and things like that. So, you have to go through so much growth. And so, when you’re part of a lot of new engagements, new initiatives, it’s like you forget it because once you move to the next level, you just forget about that and now you're at next level. So for me, uh, like I say, it's thirty years of engaging with the students, faculty and staff, with administrators. It was a lot of the, a lot of the things that we see right now, whether it is programs through Cross-Cultural Center, or through what used to be SLL, Student Live and Leadership, now it's SLIC (both laugh), Student Leadership and Involvement (Center), something like that. SLIC, they just changed it. Um, a lot of the programs, a lot of orientation. I also worked with housing. So, housing was another area where, where you are engaged with students coming in with family, with their parents, you were engaged and things like that. And so, for me, it's just a, I was not like static in one department or in one function doing just one specific thing. I have been engaged within a lot of different things on campus. So that to me is, it makes it harder for me. It's like, as a result of me doing what specific area, this is where I am, or this is where I was, this is where I got. Is it just so much that I can say I've been a part of? And as a result, I grew up with it (laughs) and I even got retired, bro. (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. You say, that you really don't know, like what, I couldn't really go into specifics. Um, could I ask you to tell me just, just any story that you might have, of helping a student or being involved in the, on campus or anything like that? Berhane: Um, so for example, on Orientation Team. Stanley: Mm-hmm. Berhane: Orientation Team is, there's a training every year. We go camping. You go camping to Ramona or to Alpine (California) or things like that. My most memorable memories with the students is when you are going to those kinds of three, four-day trainings and camping and you are doing all kinds of crazy things in there. And so for me, my most memorable uh, fun memories are related to the orientation team going places and being trained. Things on campus, we've done so much. But when you get outta here and do other activities off campus, those were memorable. Stanley: Um, let's see here. Um, could you tell me about your involvement with Greek Life? Berhan: (laughs) Greek Life? Hmm. So when we initially started the department Student Activities in 1993, Greek life was not recognized as Greek Life. Greek life was more, you can initiate, but we are not gonna recognize you as a Greek Life organization because first of all, you have to go and communicate with the National Greek (Life) Association (National Panhellenic Conference). The campus was not a grown-up campus. And so my engagement with Greek life was more before they became Greek Life, before they became recognized, um, Greek organizations. It was more you give, they give them (pseudonyms) and we know where they're heading, but they recognized as student organizations where it's not supposed to discriminate membership based on gender and whatnot. Because as you know, Greek organizations are based on gender, kind of like the sororities, fraternities and things like that. So their names were not as Greek names. It was more a pseudo-other names. We know where they're heading, that's where they're trying and planning. But my, so in the early days when I was part of, you know, when they were part of that student organization, they were just student organizations. That's my experience with them. Once we recognized them, we started recognizing them, then the process of working with them moved to a new Greek Life advisor. And I remained with the rest of the other student organizations. So Greek Life before they became Greek Life, yes, I know who they were. I worked with them as their advisor. But once we have started to recognize them fully, then a Greek Life advisor has to come. A Greek Life advisor was hired. That's how we kind of-- we are in the same department, but me doing student organizations, these other person, Greek life leadership programs, all of us. And then orientation, and then Cross-Cultural Center, you know, all coming from within this department. Stanley: Um, you mentioned that, uh, they had to use pseudonyms instead of real Greek names. I was wondering if you could remember any of the names. Berhane: I can't. I can't. I'm sorry. I mean, we have to go back to the, the good old days. Um, we had, you know, documents. I don't have any of the documents, but if you wanna go search what the earlier, earlier student organizations... You kind of, you can find it in the (19)93, 94, 95 years, what student organizations were. I think some of that list might be still in student activities or SLIC or ASI might have that list as well. But it was, like I say, it is very hard for me to remember all of those. But it was three or four different student organizations. Stanley: Well, thank you for the reference at least. Um, you talked about, about how you were involved with student residential life, um, in the same vein as being working earlier in CSUSM. How was residential, residential life in CSUSM earlier on? Berhane : So before the, uh, UVA (University Village Apartments), the university village was built, the campus had leased apartments in what we call it, uh, the islands apartments. The Islands Apartments. Out of many of the apartments, the university leased several buildings and rooms. So we used to house students. And so even though I was working still in Student Activities, the Director of Student Activities was also overseeing the, uh, of campus housing. We called it the off-campus housing initiative. And so I was, I happened to be the other person also to help with that. So it was, again, off campus, the Islands Apartments. It's off of Wood, you know, in San Marcos, if you are familiar with San Marcos, uh, Twin Oaks (Road) going east, there is the golf course. Right across the golf course. There's Woodward. Woodward is a street. So I think they changed the name, but it used to be called the Islands Apartment. And so even though we were not, nobody was resident in there from us, the staff members, we were there to support students. It was, I was part of that. And that's pretty much so. And then once we build the UVA, the University Village, then everybody new has to take over. Uh, even though to this day, the Dean of Students where I worked overseas housing, all housing. So the directors of the on-campus housing, I think they also reported to the Dean of Students. And so, me remaining in, within the Dean of Students, under the Dean of Students kind of gave me an opportunity to really engage in work or move in, move out and things like that. But my experience with housing started with off-campus housing, and I continued to also do a list of off-campus housing. Um, so it still is in existence, I think. Stanley: Sorry, I keep, I keep asking you, but, uh, do you have any sort of (Berhane laughs) say sort of story or memorable moment in those residential, like when you were helping people move in or move out or stuff like that? Berhane: Yeah, it's just, so maybe a fun memories is where, you know, I live very close to them. And so if I take my kids with me and have my kids in there and, uh, see where, you know, this is for students, college students, I think for me it's more like my whole family was involved in things like that wherever I go, whether it's an event here. But fun memories with off campus housing, I mean, there was a lot of stuff people throw away and things like that. It’s like, you know, there's a lot. And for me, with my background from Africa. Like, there's a lot of people who could use all of those things. Things that are being thrown away. And it just-- things that I can think as like memories, okay, they're going throw the mattress to the trash, I mean, throwing it, oh wow, (laughs), somebody could have used that one. Uh, things like that. But I mean, in engaging specifically with individual students to say, I know so and so, so and so, is not there yet. It's not there anymore. (laughs) It's not there. Like the fact that I can remember the Islands Apartment because it was the initial apartments. We had students who lived there, you know, the residents of, uh, you know, a subleased apartment, but we were administering it and things like that. I think those things, I can see the apartments and the people, some people, but not a, uh, not a whole lot of memory of individuals. Stanley: Um, how, how has seeing CSUSM grow over the years impacted you, and your life around the CSUSM community? Berhane: Ahh. You know, I indicated earlier, I came to San Marcos when San Marcos was really a, uh, a mobile home community, a retirement community. When there was no stop signs or four, you know, four-way stops. It was just, you go from one place to another with no stop and five minutes was enough to get you from where you are to where you need to go, where you want to go. The fact that for thirty some years right now, I've seen the growth of San Marcos in general as a community, to where we are right now. It's very hard for me to believe, to tell you the truth. It's just very hard for me to believe. So, the impact is from this small community, retirement community, a neat community to the kind of growth that you see-- even when we moved here (from CSU Jerome’s campus) in 1992, we only had, what, four buildings? This building (Kellogg Library), Commons, Academical Hall, Science Hall. That was it. That was it. It was just fine. It was nice. Now to see where we are, even though in, you know, in (inaudible) there was, uh, something called, “in twenty-five years Cal State San Marcos is supposed to have grown to have up to 25,000 students.” Well, for different reasons that didn't happen. Economy and whatnot and whatnot. But for me, I like the fact that it has grown. So my kids can go to the schools where they went to. Richland (Elementary School), Woodland (Park Middle School), Mission Hills (High School). But those things, well Mission (High School) was not there. I mean, all the growth for me to be able, instead of going (to) San Diego State to be able to finish in San Marcos, I had benefited a lot to be part of it. I mean, extra lucky to be working in here instead of San Diego or moving to other kinds of states or other cities. San Marcos in general, as a community, as a university, gave me life. Life. Do you know, life? Life. It gave me life. So for me, it's beyond, I'm beyond grateful for the impact that Cal State San Marcos. The fact that Cal State San Marcos, when it came time, the place, were everything, I raised three kids in San Marcos who all three of 'em went to like, oh, I told you Richland, Woodland, and then went to college. None of them came here (CSUSM) ‘cause Daddy works here (laughs). So they had to go to different states. But, um, but they knew where, what my expectations of them, they knew they were part of, I was part of this. And they knew they were not just going to finish high school and not go to college. So they all did at least their four, the four-year degree. So for me, it is life. My experience, the people that I come to know here at the university, the faculty, staff, students, it gave me life. I'm telling you, I don't know where I would've been if it wasn’t for Cal State San Marcos. And the whole general San Marcos, the whole area. So I'm very, very grateful. Stanley: That's, that's incredible. Um, yeah, it's just, it's almost like a, it's become like a campus town at this point now. Berhane: Oh my God. Oh my gosh. I mean, when I was a student, there was no parking fees or anything (laughs). Now I have (to) pay, like an hour. You pay my job, just leave me (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. There's a train that runs along now. Berhane: That's a different story (laughs). That's a different story, man. Stanley: Getting back, uh, as we're winding down, um, I know that you had, you were involved with the Black Student Union and Black Student Center. How would would you say that pro, those programs and that, what's the word, uh, correlates or stacks up against the Cross-Cultural Center? I'd say, so. Berhane: Um, I think what, you know, during time, with time you have to identify all the different things that you need, who needs what. And so, I don't know, I don't wanna compare or compete or anything as, you know, not just a Black Student Center, not just a Latino Center, not just a Women's Center or a Native American Center. It's more they all have their own individual roles to play in the, in, in, you know, in this community. So, Black Student Center was a necessary department, was a necessary service, a necessary center to have on campus. If we are going to have specific groups feeling welcomed and that they have a space on campus. With Multicultural Programs its good, when multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-gender, or whatever you call it, in name. It-- but they're able to come and use that as a center for that. But I think people feel comfortable where they feel they belong to. Just like the student organizations. When I was a student, when I see a sociology club, accounting club, Latino club, well, I wanted to have the Black Student Club. So I was part of a Black student club. Uh, we were calling it African American or African Student Organization, African, all kinds of stuff, trying to say we have something that belongs to us. So for me, it's not like in comparison to other centers, it was necessary to have a center for the Black students to feel comfortable enough to go there. And so for us, again, as advocates for services to different interests of different student groups, to have that implemented and to see that while I was a student, I while I was an employee here, was a great thing. I was always involved like I say from day one, whether since starting a student organization, once I became a staff (employee designation), we have the Black Faculty and Staff Association. I've been part of that (inaudible) since day one. When we graduated in 1992, I became one of the board members with the Alumni Association, starting Alumni Association I can say I've been part of a lot of starting things because I think the need, the need is there and if I'm able to help on engage(ment), why not? So I as, as someone who was active as a student, once I graduated, I was also pulled to help start the Alumni Association. And so I think, you know, in trying to answer your question, it's not really in competition or one over the other or against the other. It's more providing services to the different populations, different groups with different interests that we have on campus. Stanley: Uh, yeah, perhaps I worded that a little wrong. You touched on this before, but what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center play as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces like you named before? Berhane: I think it requires an understanding of what its mission is, an understanding. So if I'm coming as a student, new student coming to campus, I'm a Black student. I'm not going to ask for multicultural programs where, you know, “Where is a multicultural program?” I'm gonna ask, where is a Black Student Center? If I'm going to join a student organization, I'm either going to ask for something related to my major or something related to my identity. And so, multicultural, Cross-Cultural Center, the definition of it needs to be clear to people from day one at orientation. Okay? And so, yes, it does have a mission. Yes, it does have a purpose to be here on campus to serve, but is it serving the group of people who don't have a center already? Or is it bringing all the centers together? And so, uh, reexamination of the whole purpose of Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center might be necessary at some point to say, “Who am I serving?” Okay? Because you have Latino Center here, Women's Center, gender, you know, gender and Black Student Center, there may be a need to really qualify, “Why should I go there?” Even though I know I'm familiar with it. But if I am a newcomer, what am I gonna look for? It does serve a population that doesn't, that doesn't fit any of the other ones (other centers). But what extent do they understand it? To what extent are they familiar and aware of this service and this center? Stanley: I guess the same thing I ask as a longtime CSUSM (staff and administrative) member and student of CSUSM, what advice would you give the Cross-Cultural Center to be more inclusive and, and get those people who are outside of the lines of the Latin( /x) Center, or the Black (Student) Center? Berhane: I don't know if, uh, Floyd (Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time of the interview’s recording) will need my advice. I'm sure he, he is very familiar with what he's doing and what, you know, what he sees all the different centers around him, and he works very closely with the student centers and stuff. So they don't really need my advice. But I think, you know, always doesn't hurt to go back and look at who is, who is being engaged here? Who is our population? Who is the most frequently arrival here in relation to-- So if I were to look back at who the most popular, what population used to be there... more often it is more of the Asian population. Okay. So the Asian population probably don't have any other location, but the Multicultural Programs (Cross-Cultural Center). Because we, I'm being honest, this Black Student center, Latino Center, Indian Center, there's an argument there should be a White center too. But (laughs), that's a different story. But I think the thing is, you know, a lot of, we’ve got to go back and take a look at the purpose of this center. Are we serving the population that we were formed to serve and continually revise. Take, you know, take notes of all the people who have come to you on a daily basis and see if we are missing anybody. If we are missing anybody, the best place to meet them is at orientation. When they all come in on campus with their families and you know, tell them where all the different services are, make that as a, you know, make it as an effort. I used to do recruitment too even when I was a student assistant. Students who heard me talk about “Cal State Marcos will offer you this, this, and that.” Once they come to Cal State San Marcos, if they experience the things that I told them ; Cal State San Marcos will serve you, they (the students) would remember that and say, “I'm so glad that you said that. I am glad I heard you say that.” And I can see, and really, I use that and it's helped, it has helped me. I really appreciate that. So, we need to be able to impact students from the day one, what kind of services we are providing for them and why they should come to our department, why they should come to our service, why they should come to my class, why they should do those things at the orientation, at wherever they are at the beginning. And so, identify your population, identifying all the different services you can provide, as much as you can provide. You don't expect someone, uh, search you and come to your office. They're not, they're not gonna come, unless they hear you say something, something. Stanley: So, yes. So to, to uh, summarize, make people aware of the program. Make sure that you know who you're serving and that, why they should come there. Berhane: Yes. That's how I feel. That's how I feel. I mean, people need to know. A lot of people if they, if you don't know it, you don't know it, you're not going to go and search for it. You haven't heard anybody talking about it. So even though it may be available in your fingertips, this is different. Maybe I'm old fashioned, maybe I'm more like from person to person, but for me, the only way people can come to (the services) is (if) they're aware of it. So make it aware and be clear about what services you're providing and where you are located, what your hours are, your phone number and blah blah. And have 'em (students) come. And it, again, it doesn't have to be limited to orientation or one area or this and that. Could be classrooms. It could be announcements, it could be a lot of things. But make sure that, you know, you are known on campus for providing services that all students need or specific students need. Stanley: All right. Well I really appreciate you coming. I'm gonna end the recording now. Berhane: Well, thank you. Uh, let me say thank you, uh, Seth, for this opportunity. And I say I'm grateful that you invited me and that I'm a part of this. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29.xml BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Berhane, Gezai. Interview March 29th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Gezai Berhane is a California State University San Marcos alumnus, where he was part of the first graduating class. Since his graduation, Berhane was a CSUSM employee until his retirement in 2021. Most recently he worked as Associate Director of Operations. In this interview, Berhane discusses his immigration journey, involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, campus Greek life, and other student centers at California State University San Marcos. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-37 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Greek life California State University San Marcos. Student Activities Refugees -- Eritrea Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-29 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gezai Berhane Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Eritrea San Marcos, (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Gezai Berhane Black experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Immigrant experience