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Madeleine Meyer
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Jay Franklin
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5.4 Franklin, Jay. Interview April 12, 2023. SC027-026 35:02 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs Education, Higher Human rights LGBTQ+ activism Jay Franklin Madeleine Meyer Moving Image FranklinJay_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-12.mp4 1:|15(10)|33(6)|47(4)|68(3)|81(15)|94(15)|119(13)|131(12)|148(1)|168(5)|187(1)|205(9)|228(1)|239(13)|271(14)|283(11)|308(14)|327(6)|341(5)|355(2)|370(14)|385(16)|407(8)|442(6)|474(11)|485(4)|510(13)|523(8)|540(16)|554(14)|566(6)|600(7)|625(1)|635(12)|653(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6bbcdb372d4f92f0e23c4484059a9d18.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview introduction + Franklin's early life and education prior to CSUSM Jay Franklin reflects on his educational journey as well as the cross-country move he made that landed him back in California, where he was born, ultimately leading to a career change from cosmetology to academia. Cosmetology ; Education ; Military Family ; San Diego ; Tidewater Community College, Virginia Beach ; Virginia Beach, Virginia 220 Franklin enrolls at California State San Marcos for his B.A. in 2005. Franklin discusses his decision to attend CSUSM, as well as giving a general outline of his path back to the university once he had his undergraduate degree. Bridgepoint Education/Asher University ; California State University San Marcos ; Careers in higher education ; City College ; Higher education ; Matriculation Coordinator ; San Diego ; San Diego State University ; San Marcos 375 Finding Student Life and Leadership Franklin describes joining a campus LGBTQ+ organization, the stealing of the student organization's banner, and his encountering of Student Life and Leadership and the Multicultural Programs Office through that act of hate. Hate crimes on campus ; Hillcrest ; Inclusivity ; LGBTQIA+ ; Marketing ; Pride Center 508 Early engagement with the Cross-Cultural Center (then known as the Multicultural Programs office) Franklin discusses working with Multicultural Programs to gather resources for the LGBTQ+ student organization. Frankling describes the draw of the then Multicultural Center including its patrons and the space itself. American Indian Student Association ; Asian Pacific Islander Desi American ; Black Student Union ; California State University San Marcos ; California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Campus resources ; Community building ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Inclusion ; Movimentio Estudiantil Chicano de Azltlán ; Representation on campus ; Self-expression ; Vietnamese Student Association 722 Franklin becomes a peer educator at the Multicultural Center in Spring 2007. Franklin recalls working as a peer educator at the Multicultural Center (Cross-Cultural Center), and learning about student affairs as a career. Activism ; California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Marketing ; Peer educators 876 Programs and outreach at the Cross-Cultural Center. Franklin recalls being a " ; marketing machine" ; and peer educators working with their communities for outreach. Activism ; Campus community ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Identity ; Marketing ; Outreach 971 Understanding the under-served campus community. Franklin describes the allure of food in driving attendance to events. He also describes workshops dedicated to finding funding for student organization programming. California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Food insecurity 1070 Franklin's experience with discovering his cultural identity Franklin recalls his early childhood military family background and how that did not inform his identity, and speaks to how the Center assisted in helping him find that identity. Asian-American experience ; Community building ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Cultural expression ; Filipino-American experience ; Identity ; Inclusion 1156 The Cross-Cultural Center moves to a bigger and more visible location Franklin describes the Center moving to the breezeway of the Administrative Building (then Craven Hall), and what being in that space did for the Cross-Cultural Center. Franklin also recalls how the peer educators engaged students who hadn't been in the space previously. California State University San Marcos ; Campus activism ; Murals 1290 Food insecurity and demand for identity-specific spaces Franklin recalls when he was a student the issue of food insecurity on campus, and the need for a food pantry. Franklin also describes the growing demand for additional identity-focused spaces on campus. California State University San Marcos ; Food insecurity ; Pride Center ; Representation ; Women in Gender Equity Center 1437 Evolution of the Cross-Cultural Center Franklin offers his thoughts on how the Cross-Cultural Center has evolved and how he sees the Center evolving in the future, as well as how it coexists with other spaces.. Identity ; Marketing ; Representation 1582 Impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on Franklin's career Franklin explains the impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on his career, and how it informed his future educational and professional growth. Franklin also describes the benefits and challenges of working in higher education in California. California State University San Marcos ; Careers in higher education ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Higher education ; Student affairs 1712 Highlights from Franklin's time at the Cross-Cultural Center Franklin recalls facilitating the All People's Celebration, and working as a coordinator emergency hire where he evolved from a student to a young professional. Franklin also describes working on a mural near the Center. All People's Celebration ; Asher University ; California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Murals 1945 Franklin returns to CSUSM in 2009 to work for Extended Learning Programs. Franklin recalls working for Extended Learning and working in Student Affairs, and discusses working in Student Affairs during the 2020 COVID-19 Pandemic. California State University San Marcos-- Extended Learning ; Covid-19 pandemic ; Higher education ; Professional experience ; Virtual learning mp4 Jay Franklin was a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM during the early days of the program and university. He was instrumental in the creation of many of the programs and early marketing campaigns for the center, and worked as a peer educator to provide what we would now call intersectional support for LGBTQIA students. Eventually, he made his way back to CSUSM, where he now works in the Dean of Student Affairs office. Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I' ; m here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Jay Franklin here at the California State University San Marcos for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Wednesday, April 12th, 2023, and the time is 2:16. Hi, Jay. Uh, why don' ; t you go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your early life and family. Franklin: Woo. Awesome. Jay Franklin, uh, associate director of new student and family programs. Um, early life, uh, let' ; s see. I grew up military. My dad was in the Navy for 24 years, so every two to three years we moved around a lot. Um, but I was fortunate enough to stay for a significant amount of time in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Um, and then had the opportunity to move out to California in 1999. California is my birth state, so when that opportunity came up, I moved away from Virginia Beach. My entire family network is in Virginia, Virginia Beach, and I just wanted to start anew out here in San Diego. Meyer: Nice. So, what was your educational journey like? Franklin: The typical " ; Go to high school and you should go to college" ; . So I, I tried that route, or that was my original plan. My senior year, my junior year of high school, I was fortunate enough to get into a program that allowed me to go to beauty school, uh, cosmetology school. So I was able to use those elective units or those blocks of time to go to cosmetology school. So, by the time I graduated high school, I already had my cosmetology license. So, I went, I did the apply for college, uh, went to a local community college, Tidewater Community College in Virginia Beach, Virginia. And, realized as a full-time hair stylist, I was doing a lot like that whole typical, like, how many hours -- should I work full-time, part-time, go to school full-time, part-time? And, I did full-time both, and, of course that doesn' ; t work out. And I felt as though I, in one of my classes, I' ; ll never forget, my sociology instructor--professor--was sharing like how much they made. And I' ; m like, you make that? And I' ; m like, and you got your doctor whatever! And it just really was jarring and shocking for me because here I am, a professional hair stylist, uh, working in a, in a salon and also doing hair on the side. I was pulling in basically what that faculty member was saying was their salary. So I was like, why am I here? And it just wasn' ; t a good fit. Um, so I didn' ; t go-- I. I dropped out eventually. Actually, I, uh, history shows that I have a whole bunch of " ; WU" ; s [Withdrawal Unauthorized]. So I did the first semester, did great. Got A' ; s and B' ; s and, and A minus or something? Uh, and, and then my second semester I was like, that was when I encountered my sociology instructor and was basically sharing their, their salary. And I was like, I need to get outta here. So I just thought, just not showing up, you' ; re done with class, and the, the university would just disenroll you and yeah, of course I' ; ll disenroll you with " ; WU" ; s, so, those are F' ; s. And so my second semester at Tidewater Community College had a whole bunch of F' ; s. Fast forward many years, at least a decade, and I started to see the number " ; 30," ; my age was coming up as thirty. And I' ; m like, oh my gosh, it' ; s time to actually go back to school and get a career. And yeah, I have a great job doing hair, but that' ; s a job. I really wanted to finish what I originally set out to do and go to college and get my bachelor' ; s degree, and did it. So I went back to school and was a non-traditional student. Uh, I didn' ; t want to go to SDSU, um, and was very adamant in not being, " ; hey, number 262 in the back row." ; Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: I wanted to be a person, and found out that, uh, Cal State San Marcos was a brand-new school, smaller class sizes, and I, I didn' ; t wanna leave San Diego. Worked so hard to get here and stay here. So, at that time, my partner and I were looking around for houses or condos to buy, and we just couldn' ; t find anything in San Diego, ' ; cause it was 2004 and the prices were just going up and up and up. So, fortunately, fortunately the housing or condo prices in San Marcos were affordable at that time. So, and telling my counselor at City College, she' ; s like, " ; Oh, yeah, that actually works out better for you when you apply because you' ; ll be in the service area of Cal State San Marcos." ; So it, it worked out. And I was able to come to Cal State San Marcos as an undergrad non-traditional student, in fall of 2005, been here ever since. I mean, I did leave for a little bit and, uh, I did my undergrad, my grad here, but there was a stint as soon as I finished my undergrad, I didn' ; t wanna work in a salon and I wanted a job that leveraged my bachelor' ; s degree and was lucky enough to get a job at Bridgepoint Education or Asher University, and was a matriculation coordinator-- basically a transcript evaluator. Um, did that for a couple months, I think almost a year. And then worked my way up to Articulation Specialist-- which is like assist.org, it' ; s like your articulation specialist, uh, counselor transfer counselor 24/7-- and was able to do that for Asher University. And while at a Christmas party for an office at Cal State San Marcos-- my partner worked at Cal State San Marcos at that time, so I was attending his--- was a Christmas party and was sharing with the dean at that time what I did. And it just worked out that they were having an emergency position that they said, " ; Hey, you should apply!" ; And the rest is history, as I say, I apply and then have been here ever since. So I did have a, a gap in my Cal State San Marcos life of about a year and a half where I worked externally. But boomeranged back to come to Cal State San Marcos, Meyer: Everything comes back to-- Franklin: Totally, totally. Meyer: So, during your time at, at Cal State San Marcos, when you were an undergrad, how did you become aware of and become involved with the Cross-Cultural Center? Franklin: I love it. Okay. So, um, in 2005, I was a non-traditional student, so I knew that yes, the, the university has the mission statement, vision statement, campus core values, and I, I moved up from Hillcrest, so I was very out and comfortable with myself and eagerly looked for the student organization for the LGBTQ+ community, and discovered it and found it and joined their group and was like, " ; Look, we need to have some marketing. We need some banners, we need rebranding." ; And I just, I just came, I, I wasn' ; t a, a typical student. So I, I went to school and wanted to get the best out of my experience and basically became a marketing director for the student org, and then branded us and allowed us to get some visibility on campus because we wanted to increase our membership. And in that, I' ; m gonna say either that fall or early that spring, uh, our banner for our student org was stolen. And I thought it was very odd that a university would lose or allow something like that to occur. And, I thought it was really jarring to be called " ; faggot" ; on campus. And it was just really jarring. It was, it was very strange. It really reminded me of growing up in Virginia Beach, Virginia with the 700 Club in the background, Christian Coalition [of America]-- campus, yes, is supposed to be inclusive, and I just didn' ; t get that vibe. I also was very comfortable in my being gay and championing the LGBTQ+ community causes up here. And to have our banner stolen, I immediately, like, " ; Who do I go to?" ; And our student org was like, " ; Oh my gosh, what are we gonna do?" ; I' ; m like, the university has protocols, there' ; s rules and policies, so we' ; ll just work our way up to food chain to find out who' ; s responsible for our safety and like, what, what can be done about this banner being stolen? And that was how I encountered Student Life and Leadership, because our student organization is founded out of Student Life and Leadership, so they were responsible for the student organization. And then it also allowed me to, out of SLL-- Student Life and leadership-- it also allowed me to encounter the Multicultural Programs Office or the Cross-Cultural Center, as it was slowly evolving into -- So, that was my first encounter, was like, " ; Hey, what' ; s going on?" ; Like, our student org didn' ; t even know that the Cross-Cultural Center or the Multicultural Programs Office existed. So it was an opportunity for me to learn more about multicultural programs and the Cross-Cultural Center, but it also, uh, was allowed the student org to gain additional information and resources. So that' ; s how we encountered it. That' ; s how I personally discovered it. Meyer: So, what was the role of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time? I understand that it was like the university just starting out. Did it have more leeway or, or sway? Franklin: Um, I don' ; t, I wouldn' ; t say more leeway or sway. It was just a, to be honest, it was the reason why I was drawn into the space is there was, there were folks that looked like me, so it was predominantly Filipino or Asian, the folks that hung out in the center or the-- it was really a oversized closet, I want to say, like, as big as this room that we' ; re in. So, it was a small closet, and a conference room, and it was filled with people that looked like me. We had the same conversations about our identity groups, and it was just a really welcoming environment. I was like, wow, it' ; s refreshing to be in here versus the external campus. I mean, back then my hair was platinum or purple or pink or cheetah spots. It was whatever I felt like, I was a professional hairstylist so my hair changed often. It was like, see-through, iridescent, like-- so, in that, in that space, I was able to just be myself. And then other students started sharing their stories and some students started coming out, and-- it was-- I, I wouldn' ; t say there was like any sway or anything. It was just a spot that made me feel better. And then because I was in the center, more students were accessing the resources and, yeah. Our student org basically started leveraging the center-- Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: For resources for the student org, because Student Life and Leadership has resources for student orgs, but so does--the Cross-- or the Multicultural Programs, Cross-Cultural Center has resources. So, once I knew that those things were available, our student org definitely started leveraging them and, and holding space and, and using resources. Like we made, we came up with marketing campaigns, events to help not just our student org professionally develop in leadership, but also sharing some of our lessons learned with other student orgs, like, Black Student Union, American Indian Student Association, MEChA [Movimentio Estudiantil Chicano de Azltlán], APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American], or-- I' ; m trying to remember all the other ones-- but Asian Pacific Islander student org, Vietnamese student org [Vietnamese Student Association]. So, all these different student orgs, their membership were students. And I felt really out of place because I was an older, non-traditional student, and I was pushing-- I wouldn' ; t say pushing the envelope-- but I was just encouraging more leadership development, and sharing resources with students, saying, " ; These are things that you' ; ve paid for, you can leverage them and use them to the benefit of not just your student org, but for you professionally and get some-- grow your skillset." ; Meyer: Mm-hmm. So, I understand you became a peer educator because you were so motivated to like, keep helping other students learn about the things they could utilize on campus. Um, could you talk a little bit about the peer educator program? Franklin: Yeah. So there were, I wanna say five of us. Uh, I' ; m looking at, let me look at my pictures. Meyer: No, that' ; s totally fine. Franklin: There, there was Cheryl, Stephanie, Diana, myself, and Brittany, and that was May of 2007. I was just looking, referencing a picture of us as a group. As a peer educator, I kind of feel like, because I was a non-traditional student, I really looked at this as a job, as a-- I didn' ; t know that student affairs was actually a career until encountering Student Life and Leadership in the Multicultural Programs. I was like, " ; This is a job?" ; Like, this is amazing! So, I was living the life as if I was already employed by the university and really took ownership and pride of being a peer educator-- Um, but, of course I wanted to ensure that we all shared the, the workload. So, each of us had a specialization. Mine was LGBTQ specific, the four other peer educators focused on their areas. I just took a bit more ownership of like, making sure that-- I, I wouldn' ; t say I was a lead, but I just wanted to make sure that our, our projects were polished? And, when looking around at other student orgs and other peer educators on campus, I wanted to share all the resources, and the presentation of this is what Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center, this is the content we put out. It' ; s branded, it has a, a similar look and feel. It didn' ; t look hodgepodge. Like, this was years ago before the advent of Canva. Everybody loves Canva right now because templates galore and it all looks professional. Back then we didn' ; t have it. So, the peer educators basically came up with our own template that we said, okay, this is how we' ; re, the conversation was like, how do we make it look professional and not student org, and not just disjointed from every event to the next event? There was some side sort of cohesion, a template that looked like when you looked at a, a flyer or a poster, you knew, oh, that' ; s a Cross-Cultural Center event. Meyer: Hmm. What kind of support and programmings were, were offered for students that got involved with the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] when the organization was still, you know, coming up when you were, when you were a peer educator. What kind of, like, outreach was taking place to the students? Franklin: Kinda outreach. Ooh, that' ; s a good one. Uh, so the peer educators essentially were their own marketing machines. Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, each of our groups, we were leveraged, uh, to dip into our own communities-- Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, when it came to marketing efforts and how do we reach the greater campus body-- I mean, there was, I wanna say 7,400 students on campus at that time? 74[00] to 8,000 students. So, by being already a student leader in the LGBTQ group, our and each of the peer educators being members of their own, identity group, student orgs, it really helped the marketing efforts target those communities. And it was cross-pollination essentially. Like, everybody-- we synced our events to ensure that we weren' ; t overlapping anybody else' ; s events, so that we could pull our communities to each one of them so we could be strategic in our marketing efforts. Meyer: How did the Cross-Cultural Center help you further develop that sense of community and help others find it? I know you' ; ve already touched on that a bit, but, um, yeah. Finding a community on campus-- Franklin: How did it help me find a community? Meyer: I mean, you, you already had, like you said, a community, but, how did-- how did you help bring other people into that in ways that they might not have been introduced to? Franklin: Perfect. Okay. Um, a good way of looking at it is ensuring that a lot of our events had food, because we knew that food draws students. So, one strategy was always going to the director of Student Life Leadership, was always asking for additional funds for < ; laughs> ; so we could buy pizza, hotdogs, to ensure our events had food, because we knew that food was the-- a driving motivator for students to attend anything. So, food was important. And then, money was another way of, of pulling in students that didn' ; t leverage the Cross-Cultural Center or Student Life and Leadership was helping students-- like, we were doing workshops and helping students, obtain funding from-- the Cross-Cultural Center had funds, ASI [Associated Students Incorporated, student government] had funds, the Vice President of Student Affairs had funds, so there was like $500 pockets of money that you could apply for in fall or for spring, or for the entire academic year. So, we came up with workshops to help students apply for those programs, funding opportunities so that they could actually get money. So, we knew food was important and money was important. So, we held workshops, helped students actually like, oh, I' ; ve never applied for money before for student org. We' ; re like, " ; don' ; t worry, we can help you walk through this process." ; So, food and money was one way to bring in students that never knew that the Cross-Cultural Center existed, or even Student Life and Leadership existed. Meyer: What is the overall significance, in your opinion, of having a space like that, that champions, uh, underrepresented students on campus and gives them a place to be themselves and hold space? Franklin: Yeah, it was, it was a family experience. For me, I, I really, uh, didn' ; t, as I grew up military, so every two to three years would move around. So, I really didn' ; t have this whole Asian, Filipino, identity experience. But hanging out in the center really helped me come, come to peace or come to terms with my half-Filipino, half-Asian background. And it helped me find space. And then by being comfortable, I guess others, seeing myself being authentic allowed them to just be themselves. Like, it was a really family experience in a sense that when you walked into the center-- I was looking at some of the pictures from back of the day. Some students just like took off their shoes. Like when you talk about a family or cross-cultural experience, some at, when they go home, they take off their shoes before they enter their house. So, I thought it was the strangest and coolest thing. And, and looking back, I saw a picture where there was some students without their shoes on. I' ; m like, " ; Oh my gosh, I totally forgot about that." ; So, I, it was a space for students to be themselves, and the more students that went into the Cross-Cultural Center to-- it always felt like there was a party. Like, there was a sort of celebration in the center, like we packed the space and, and, and not just packing the space, it was always fun. And when we moved from Craven Hall, now the Administrative Building, it' ; s that small little conference room that' ; s as big as this space. We moved into the breezeway of the administrative building, and the door into the Cross-Cultural Center was in the breezeway where all the murals are at, at Cal State San Marcos. So, whenever we were holding space and taking up space and having some dialogue, whenever the door was open, it echoed inside. I think it was like a strategic way of the director that time to put it in that space, because it was front and center. Everybody that walked through that hallway, the sound just increased because it was in a hallway-- a breezeway. And when people looked into the space and saw the fun you were having, it was-- the natural conversation was like, our question was like, " ; What' ; s going on in there? And how could I join it?" ; So, it was always packed, it was always welcomed. The peer educators, as soon as somebody walked by, looked into the space, our, our goal was to engage with them immediately. So if you looked into the door of the Cross-Cultural Center, it was like, " ; Hi! Welcome into our space! We' ; ve got this and we' ; ve got that." ; Just, it was always a welcoming and inclusive atmosphere, total family. Like if, if a student didn' ; t know it was here, that meant they never visited Cougar Central or visited the Financial Aid Office. Like, in order to get to that, that office, that was one of the main thoroughfares at breezeway with the murals is where the party was happening. Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like some of the activism efforts were just getting kids in the door so they could learn and, and, yeah-- enjoy, enjoy the space if they previously hadn' ; t felt it on campus before. Can you recount in an instance when something you learned at the CCC, maybe it opened your eyes to something you hadn' ; t thought about before, something just hadn' ; t crossed your mind? Some-- um-- maybe some issue you hadn' ; t realized that underrepresented students were having on campus, that you just hadn' ; t-- Franklin: The, the food, the-- definitely the food insecurity. < ; removing glasses> ; I' ; m, I' ; m not gonna be looking at my phone or a laptop. Food insecurity was a big one for me. As a non-traditional student, I didn' ; t have that worry. I didn' ; t have that concern. That was early conversations of like, " ; Where' ; s our food pantry? Other campuses have food pantries, but not Cal State San Marcos." ; So, for me, I thought that was really odd that here we are, we have a space for students, but we don' ; t have, like, a food pantry to allow students to get access to it. So that was, goes back to my earlier response of like, have food and students will show up. So, knowing that students need food, and holding events to that had food was a major draw. But yeah, it was a big shocker to find out that food insecurity was a big deal back then. I mean, it still is now. There is a food pantry and there' ; s food pantries all around. But, back then it was like, yeah, we know it' ; s a problem, but that' ; s so new and our campus is still growing, that we can only focus on this one space. And yes, the Cross-Cultural Center was one space, and there were other many spaces on campus, but because it was this Cross-Cultural Center and filled with-- the line back then was like first one in gets to own the space, so the Asian identified groups would pack the room and they' ; re like, " ; This is the Asian Center!" ; And I' ; m like, " ; This is a Cross-Cultural Center." ; Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, the conversation also started to get out where students were like, " ; Well, where' ; s my center?" ; and " ; Where' ; s my center?" ; and Pride Center of the-- like, LGBT community was like, " ; Where' ; s our center?" ; And, it just started, " ; Where' ; s the Women in Gender Equity Center?" ; So, because of the fun and the joy that was a party-like atmosphere, other, other students were like, " ; Uh, where' ; s my space?" ; And, so, that was a bit jarring for a campus from my perspective to not have all spaces, but also no time and place-- like, the university was still pretty young. Like, campuses just don' ; t pop up and have everything all at once. It has to be responsive to the community that evolves and grows there. And Cal State San Marcos has done that. Meyer: Right. Wait for the community to ask for what they need rather than just tell them what they need. Franklin: Yep. Meyer: What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with these other centers? Franklin: I, it' ; s-- Meyer: It' ; s a, it' ; s a hard question, yeah-- Franklin: Yeah. So, because they' ; re all, all these different centers are very specific to an identity group. The Cross-Cultural Center is -- I don' ; t know if they would take the lead or, um, I don' ; t know. It' ; s a, it' ; s a central hub that-- and the first center that, it' ; s been here. Just because it' ; s been here the longest doesn' ; t mean it has to stay that way. So, watching it evolve and grow, and how it collaborates with other centers has been really important. So, I don' ; t know. I don' ; t know if that answers your question. Meyer: Mm-hmm. No, it does. It does, yeah. Franklin: Once its role, its-- Meyer: There' ; s no right answer to the question. Yeah. Yeah. It' ; s exactly-- building off that, what direction do you think the CCC should grow in? What, what areas do you see room for improvement in students that could be better served, or maybe--- you know, yeah. Franklin: Yeah. It' ; s one of those, like-- oh, it' ; s almost like a innovation hub-- Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And a business incubator. So, when you look at it from... I' ; m going, I' ; m gonna dip back into the marketing hat--- it starts off as an incubator group for students that want to form community, and, once that group has been given the energy and the resources that they need, and the-- the sense of, you can advocate for yourself and advocate--. and that advocation gets you, it doesn' ; t get you a center, but it helps consolidate your voice so that you can move the students and empower the students to ask and request for space. So, yeah, I, I look at the Cross-Cultural Center as like a, a identity group incubation center. So, students leverage a space, become empowered, and then get what they need and go up to leadership or to student leadership-- ASI--- and say, " ; Hey, look, where' ; s our space? Why don' ; t we have it X, Y, and Z? Like, we' ; ve been asking for it for this long." ; Like, it' ; s a, it' ; s a great spot to start. Meyer: I understand you still work in--- of course, you work on Cal State San Marcos campus, and I just wanted to ask about what ways that your experience and your time with the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] helped shape your outlook and your professional life? Franklin: Uh, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I wouldn' ; t have known that student affairs was a job. Meyer: Yeah. Franklin: And, yeah, so Cross-Cultural Center really impacted my career trajectory. I, I didn' ; t know that this, I didn' ; t--- when I went to Cal State San Marcos, I did not know that you could work in higher education. And I didn' ; t know that was even a major. And, there' ; s an entire master' ; s degree around student affairs, and I' ; m like, this is cool. I myself didn' ; t go that route because I was already a non-traditional student. I came with a skill set that I would' ; ve already learned in the student affairs master' ; s program. I stayed at Cal State San Marcos, and I got a master' ; s of education and just made it my own and focused on LGBT-specific stuff. But, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I would not have known that there' ; s a student affairs professional career. I wouldn' ; t have known to actually work in higher education. And then this whole concept of like, you' ; re a state employee. Like, I didn' ; t-- like when I originally said, " ; Oh, gosh, I' ; m about to be 30," ; it' ; s--- " ; I need to look for retirement!" ; I didn' ; t know that working for the state of California, the retirement is, like, this unicorn that doesn' ; t exist anymore. So, like, private businesses don' ; t even offer half of which you get as a state employee. And, and that comes with a, a rub as well, because when you' ; re a new professional in, student affairs or just in in higher education, you have to, you have to put in your, your dues and start at the bottom and work your way up, learn the skillsets, apply for another job if you see one that better fits you grow within your role. But all of those things I would' ; ve never known about had it not been for the Cross-Cultural Center. So, for me, it really had a huge impact on my personal life and professional career as well. Meyer: I understand that you and a lot of the peer educators became really good friends, and I was just wondering if either with them or with other students at the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center], if there' ; s any like, great memories of the retreats or any of the events that you wanted to share, or just talk about. Franklin: Ooh, great events. Facilitating All People' ; s Celebration was always a, fun-- just because it was a culminating award ceremony to recognize other student leaders on campus for various social justice awards. That was really cool. A big one for me was, and I still see it today, is my first professional role in the Cross-Cultural Center. There was a gap in between my undergrad and my master' ; s program. There was a, a, a gap in professional service. So basically, the director or the co-direct, uh, assistant director at the time of the Cross-Cultural Center had left, no longer worked for the university. And the director of, Student Life, the leadership said, " ; Hey, uh, because you' ; re super engaged as a peer educator and you finally finished your undergrad, we could-- there' ; s this emergency hire position that we could hire you for three months or six months, but it ends at six months." ; There' ; s, there' ; s no, we' ; re--- we just need you to hold the spot, keep the seat warm, and keep the processes and the function of the Cross-Cultural Center moving forward because you know all the peer educators and you' ; ve been in this role-- and a lot of the peer educators graduated and a new set came in. But the ones that had didn' ; t graduate that were there, it was a really good opportunity for a good three to six months to be engaged in the student work where I evolved from student to young professional. And a big event that I had to do was create this mural, and I don' ; t know how many panels it was, but it was maybe a hundred different pieces. And it was this giant picture, and it was divided into little one-foot-by-one-foot squares, or 12-inch-by-12-inch squares. And it made this huge mural and one giant design, but everybody got a one-foot-by-one-foot portion of it, and they got to paint it and add their own flare to the image. Because, once pulled back together, it would show a, a great--- it was like a kaleidoscope of all kinds of different perspectives, even though we knew it was one giant mural but everybody had their own little one-foot-by-one-foot square to add their own flavor and to add their own, this is Jay' ; s square, or this was Stephanie' ; s square. It was really a fun experience, to do a mural that' ; s still on campus. And I see it, while it might not be in the Cross-Cultural Center, I' ; ve watched this mural move from office, or Dean' ; s conference room to Dean' ; s conference room, and it' ; s being used as backdrops for, for pictures around campus. So I think it' ; s just so neat to see, being a part of the start, that it doesn' ; t end, like, the-- I' ; ve left my mark, or the peer educators have left their mark, and that, that thing, that mural is still being leveraged today. It' ; s just pretty awesome. Meyer: That' ; s really cool. So you were, you were basically an interim director? For a little while? Franklin: I, I wouldn' ; t say a director-- Meyer: Program lead or something? Franklin: Coordinator. Meyer: Coordinator. Okay. Franklin: And yeah, I like to say, " ; Well, the director, the associate director left on the--" ; of course, no. Titles mean nothing. Meyer: Yeah. Franklin: But it was-- I, I definitely enjoyed that first experience in Student Affairs. And once I got into Student Affairs and that six months ended, it coincided with me getting hired at Asher University. And-- that is not student affairs, it was just transcript analysis. And then, coming back to Cal State San Marcos in fall of [20]09, working for Extended Learning, the self-support unit of the university, they don' ; t receive any state funds. And it was ten-- a decade of my experience was in self-support. And then, when the pandemic hit, my skillset got repurposed, and off to Student Affairs I went, and now I' ; m back in Student Affairs. So it' ; s like, really full circle again, like yeah. It' ; s pretty wild. Meyer: Yeah. So, um, I know it' ; s not related to the Cross-Cultural Center, but could you talk a little bit about directing Student Affairs during the pandemic? Franklin: Yeah. Uh, it was, I was basically supporting the director, the inaugural director of the Success Coaching Program and Office of Coaching Success. And, it was basically-- my skillset was leveraging a database to match 1500-plus students with-- I want to say-- eighteen success coaches? We' ; re a unionized environment, so, we had full-time staff, half-time staff and quarter-time staff. We had 1500 incoming first-year students that we needed to engage with and connect that student to Cal State San Marcos, even though we were in a virtual environment. So, leveraging technology appropriately. We sent text messages, of course, we called and sent emails, but as we know for sure, students or students in general don' ; t read emails and they didn' ; t know pick up calls from people that they don' ; t know. So, sending memes to students to get them engaged, and we knew what the life cycle was like, because there' ; s only sixteen weeks in a semester and we knew of certain in intervals in the semester, students like need to fill out their financial aid, meet with an academic advisor, check in to see how you' ; re doing, how are they engaging or finding a sense of community. So, it goes back to that community feeling. While it might not be a Cross-Cultural Center specific, engaging in with a student to help them find their, their sense of being, or their sense of place, or their sense of connection-- connecting to community was what we were able to do when the pandemic hit, helping the students find their place. Even though it was virtual. Meyer: It sounds like you' ; ve always been doing that. Yeah. It sounds like you' ; ve been doing that since the first day you set foot on campus, just helping other students find their place. That' ; s really cool. Well, I just wanted to thank you so much for, for coming in and doing this interview and, yeah, that' ; s all the questions I have for today. But, thank you! Franklin: That' ; s awesome. Thank you for having me. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 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Title
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Franklin, Jay. Interview April 12, 2023.
Description
An account of the resource
Jay Franklin was a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM during the early days of the program and university. He was instrumental in the creation of many of the programs and early marketing campaigns for the center, and worked as a peer educator to provide what we would now call intersectional support for LGBTQ+ students. Eventually, he made his way back to CSUSM, where he now works in the Dean of Student Affairs office.
Identifier
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SC027-026
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California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs
Education, Higher
Human rights
LGBTQ+ activism
Date
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2023-04-12
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video
Creator
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Jay Franklin
Contributor
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Madeleine Meyer
Coverage
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San Marcos (Calif.)
Virginia Beach (Va.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Jay Franklin
Type
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Moving image
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
LGBTQIA+ experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e62624fb1bdfebb2252e2ea132ab1d6e.pdf
a47afc957202c225a5327331d4f153df
PDF Text
Text
JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
Meyer:
My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Jay Franklin here at
the California State University San Marcos for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is
Wednesday, April 12th, 2023, and the time is 2:16. Hi, Jay. Uh, why don't you go ahead and introduce
yourself and tell us a little bit about your early life and family.
Franklin:
Woo. Awesome. Jay Franklin, uh, associate director of new student and family programs. Um, early life,
uh, let's see. I grew up military. My dad was in the Navy for 24 years, so every two to three years we
moved around a lot. Um, but I was fortunate enough to stay for a significant amount of time in Virginia
Beach, Virginia. Um, and then had the opportunity to move out to California in 1999. California is my
birth state, so when that opportunity came up, I moved away from Virginia Beach. My entire family
network is in Virginia, Virginia Beach, and I just wanted to start anew out here in San Diego.
Meyer:
Nice. So, what was your educational journey like?
Franklin:
The typical ”Go to high school and you should go to college”. So I, I tried that route, or that was my
original plan. My senior year, my junior year of high school, I was fortunate enough to get into a
program that allowed me to go to beauty school, uh, cosmetology school. So I was able to use those
elective units or those blocks of time to go to cosmetology school. So, by the time I graduated high
school, I already had my cosmetology license. So, I went, I did the apply for college, uh, went to a local
community college, Tidewater Community College in Virginia Beach, Virginia. And, realized as a full-time
hair stylist, I was doing a lot like that whole typical, like, how many hours -- should I work full-time, parttime, go to school full-time, part-time? And, I did full-time both, and, of course that doesn't work out.
And I felt as though I, in one of my classes, I'll never forget, my sociology instructor—professor--was
sharing like how much they made. And I'm like, you make that? And I'm like, and you got your doctor
whatever! And it just really was jarring and shocking for me because here I am, a professional hair
stylist, uh, working in a, in a salon and also doing hair on the side. I was pulling in basically what that
faculty member was saying was their salary. So I was like, why am I here? And it just wasn't a good fit.
Um, so I didn't go-- I. I dropped out eventually. Actually, I, uh, history shows that I have a whole bunch
of “WU”s [Withdrawal Unauthorized]. So I did the first semester, did great. Got A's and B's and, and A
minus or something? Uh, and, and then my second semester I was like, that was when I encountered my
sociology instructor and was basically sharing their, their salary.
And I was like, I need to get outta here. So I just thought, just not showing up, you're done with class,
and the, the university would just disenroll you and yeah, of course I'll disenroll you with “WU”s, so,
those are F’s. And so my second semester at Tidewater Community College had a whole bunch of F's.
Fast forward many years, at least a decade, and I started to see the number “30,” my age was coming up
as thirty. And I'm like, oh my gosh, it's time to actually go back to school and get a career. And yeah, I
have a great job doing hair, but that's a job. I really wanted to finish what I originally set out to do and
go to college and get my bachelor's degree, and did it. So I went back to school and was a nontraditional student. Uh, I didn't want to go to SDSU, um, and was very adamant in not being, “hey,
number 262 in the back row.”
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Meyer:
Mm-hmm.
Franklin:
I wanted to be a person, and found out that, uh, Cal State San Marcos was a brand-new school, smaller
class sizes, and I, I didn't wanna leave San Diego. Worked so hard to get here and stay here. So, at that
time, my partner and I were looking around for houses or condos to buy, and we just couldn't find
anything in San Diego, ‘cause it was 2004 and the prices were just going up and up and up. So,
fortunately, fortunately the housing or condo prices in San Marcos were affordable at that time. So, and
telling my counselor at City College, she's like, “Oh, yeah, that actually works out better for you when
you apply because you'll be in the service area of Cal State San Marcos.”
So it, it worked out. And I was able to come to Cal State San Marcos as an undergrad non-traditional
student, in fall of 2005, been here ever since. I mean, I did leave for a little bit and, uh, I did my
undergrad, my grad here, but there was a stint as soon as I finished my undergrad, I didn't wanna work
in a salon and I wanted a job that leveraged my bachelor's degree and was lucky enough to get a job at
Bridgepoint Education or Asher University, and was a matriculation coordinator-- basically a transcript
evaluator. Um, did that for a couple months, I think almost a year. And then worked my way up to
Articulation Specialist-- which is like assist.org, it's like your articulation specialist, uh, counselor transfer
counselor 24/7-- and was able to do that for Asher University.
And while at a Christmas party for an office at Cal State San Marcos-- my partner worked at Cal State
San Marcos at that time, so I was attending his--- was a Christmas party and was sharing with the dean
at that time what I did. And it just worked out that they were having an emergency position that they
said, “Hey, you should apply!” And the rest is history, as I say, I apply and then have been here ever
since. So I did have a, a gap in my Cal State San Marcos life of about a year and a half where I worked
externally. But boomeranged back to come to Cal State San Marcos,
Meyer:
Everything comes back to-Franklin:
Totally, totally.
Meyer:
So, during your time at, at Cal State San Marcos, when you were an undergrad, how did you become
aware of and become involved with the Cross-Cultural Center?
Franklin:
I love it. Okay. So, um, in 2005, I was a non-traditional student, so I knew that yes, the, the university has
the mission statement, vision statement, campus core values, and I, I moved up from Hillcrest, so I was
very out and comfortable with myself and eagerly looked for the student organization for the LGBTQ+
community, and discovered it and found it and joined their group and was like, “Look, we need to have
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some marketing. We need some banners, we need rebranding.” And I just, I just came, I, I wasn't a, a
typical student. So I, I went to school and wanted to get the best out of my experience and basically
became a marketing director for the student org, and then branded us and allowed us to get some
visibility on campus because we wanted to increase our membership. And in that, I'm gonna say either
that fall or early that spring, uh, our banner for our student org was stolen.
And I thought it was very odd that a university would lose or allow something like that to occur. And, I
thought it was really jarring to be called “faggot” on campus. And it was just really jarring. It was, it was
very strange. It really reminded me of growing up in Virginia Beach, Virginia with the 700 Club in the
background, Christian Coalition [of America]… campus, yes, is supposed to be inclusive, and I just didn't
get that vibe. I also was very comfortable in my being gay and championing the LGBTQ+ community
causes up here. And to have our banner stolen, I immediately, like, “Who do I go to?” And our student
org was like, “Oh my gosh, what are we gonna do?” I'm like, the university has protocols, there's rules
and policies, so we'll just work our way up to food chain to find out who's responsible for our safety and
like, what, what can be done about this banner being stolen?
And that was how I encountered Student Life and Leadership, because our student organization is
founded out of Student Life and Leadership, so they were responsible for the student organization. And
then it also allowed me to, out of SLL-- Student Life and leadership-- it also allowed me to encounter the
Multicultural Programs Office or the Cross-Cultural Center, as it was slowly evolving into … So, that was
my first encounter, was like, “Hey, what's going on?” Like, our student org didn't even know that the
Cross-Cultural Center or the Multicultural Programs Office existed. So it was an opportunity for me to
learn more about multicultural programs and the Cross-Cultural Center, but it also, uh, was allowed the
student org to gain additional information and resources. So that's how we encountered it. That's how I
personally discovered it.
Meyer:
So, what was the role of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time? I understand that it was like the
university just starting out. Did it have more leeway or, or sway?
Franklin:
Um, I don't, I wouldn't say more leeway or sway. It was just a, to be honest, it was the reason why I was
drawn into the space is there was, there were folks that looked like me, so it was predominantly Filipino
or Asian, the folks that hung out in the center or the-- it was really a oversized closet, I want to say, like,
as big as this room that we're in. So, it was a small closet, and a conference room, and it was filled with
people that looked like me. We had the same conversations about our identity groups, and it was just a
really welcoming environment. I was like, wow, it's refreshing to be in here versus the external campus. I
mean, back then my hair was platinum or purple or pink or cheetah spots. It was whatever I felt like, I
was a professional hairstylist so my hair changed often. It was like, see-through, iridescent, like— so, in
that, in that space, I was able to just be myself. And then other students started sharing their stories and
some students started coming out, and… it was… I, I wouldn't say there was like any sway or anything. It
was just a spot that made me feel better. And then because I was in the center, more students were
accessing the resources and, yeah. Our student org basically started leveraging the center-Meyer:
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Transcript, Interview
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Mm-hmm.
Franklin:
For resources for the student org, because Student Life and Leadership has resources for student orgs,
but so does—the Cross-- or the Multicultural Programs, Cross-Cultural Center has resources. So, once I
knew that those things were available, our student org definitely started leveraging them and, and
holding space and, and using resources. Like we made, we came up with marketing campaigns, events to
help not just our student org professionally develop in leadership, but also sharing some of our lessons
learned with other student orgs, like, Black Student Union, American Indian Student Association, MEChA
[Movimentio Estudiantil Chicano de Azltlán], APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American], or-- I'm trying
to remember all the other ones-- but Asian Pacific Islander student org, Vietnamese student org
[Vietnamese Student Association].
So, all these different student orgs, their membership were students. And I felt really out of place
because I was an older, non-traditional student, and I was pushing-- I wouldn't say pushing the
envelope-- but I was just encouraging more leadership development, and sharing resources with
students, saying, “These are things that you've paid for, you can leverage them and use them to the
benefit of not just your student org, but for you professionally and get some-- grow your skillset.”
Meyer:
Mm-hmm. So, I understand you became a peer educator because you were so motivated to like, keep
helping other students learn about the things they could utilize on campus. Um, could you talk a little bit
about the peer educator program?
Franklin:
Yeah. So there were, I wanna say five of us. Uh, I'm looking at, let me look at my pictures.
Meyer:
No, that's totally fine.
Franklin:
There, there was Cheryl, Stephanie, Diana, myself, and Brittany, and that was May of 2007. I was just
looking, referencing a picture of us as a group. As a peer educator, I kind of feel like, because I was a
non-traditional student, I really looked at this as a job, as a-- I didn't know that student affairs was
actually a career until encountering Student Life and Leadership in the Multicultural Programs. I was like,
“This is a job?” Like, this is amazing! So, I was living the life as if I was already employed by the university
and really took ownership and pride of being a peer educator… Um, but, of course I wanted to ensure
that we all shared the, the workload.
So, each of us had a specialization. Mine was LGBTQ specific, the four other peer educators focused on
their areas. I just took a bit more ownership of like, making sure that… I, I wouldn't say I was a lead, but I
just wanted to make sure that our, our projects were polished? And, when looking around at other
student orgs and other peer educators on campus, I wanted to share all the resources, and the
presentation of this is what Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center, this is the content we put
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out. It's branded, it has a, a similar look and feel. It didn't look hodgepodge. Like, this was years ago
before the advent of Canva. Everybody loves Canva right now because templates galore and it all looks
professional. Back then we didn't have it. So, the peer educators basically came up with our own
template that we said, okay, this is how we're, the conversation was like, how do we make it look
professional and not student org, and not just disjointed from every event to the next event? There was
some side sort of cohesion, a template that looked like when you looked at a, a flyer or a poster, you
knew, oh, that's a Cross-Cultural Center event.
Meyer:
Hmm. What kind of support and programmings were, were offered for students that got involved with
the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] when the organization was still, you know, coming up when you were,
when you were a peer educator. What kind of, like, outreach was taking place to the students?
Franklin:
Kinda outreach. Ooh, that's a good one. Uh, so the peer educators essentially were their own marketing
machines.
Meyer:
Mm-hmm.
Franklin:
So, each of our groups, we were leveraged, uh, to dip into our own communities—
Meyer:
Mm-hmm.
Franklin:
So, when it came to marketing efforts and how do we reach the greater campus body-- I mean, there
was, I wanna say 7,400 students on campus at that time? 74[00] to 8,000 students. So, by being already
a student leader in the LGBTQ group, our and each of the peer educators being members of their own,
identity group, student orgs, it really helped the marketing efforts target those communities. And it was
cross-pollination essentially. Like, everybody-- we synced our events to ensure that we weren't
overlapping anybody else's events, so that we could pull our communities to each one of them so we
could be strategic in our marketing efforts.
Meyer:
How did the Cross-Cultural Center help you further develop that sense of community and help others
find it? I know you've already touched on that a bit, but, um, yeah. Finding a community on campus-Franklin:
How did it help me find a community?
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Meyer:
I mean, you, you already had, like you said, a community, but, how did-- how did you help bring other
people into that in ways that they might not have been introduced to?
Franklin:
Perfect. Okay. Um, a good way of looking at it is ensuring that a lot of our events had food, because we
knew that food draws students. So, one strategy was always going to the director of Student Life
Leadership, was always asking for additional funds for <laughs> so we could buy pizza, hotdogs, to
ensure our events had food, because we knew that food was the-- a driving motivator for students to
attend anything. So, food was important. And then, money was another way of, of pulling in students
that didn't leverage the Cross-Cultural Center or Student Life and Leadership was helping students-- like,
we were doing workshops and helping students, obtain funding from-- the Cross-Cultural Center had
funds, ASI [Associated Students Incorporated, student government] had funds, the Vice President of
Student Affairs had funds, so there was like $500 pockets of money that you could apply for in fall or for
spring, or for the entire academic year. So, we came up with workshops to help students apply for those
programs, funding opportunities so that they could actually get money. So, we knew food was important
and money was important. So, we held workshops, helped students actually like, oh, I've never applied
for money before for student org. We're like, “don't worry, we can help you walk through this process.”
So, food and money was one way to bring in students that never knew that the Cross-Cultural Center
existed, or even Student Life and Leadership existed.
Meyer:
What is the overall significance, in your opinion, of having a space like that, that champions, uh,
underrepresented students on campus and gives them a place to be themselves and hold space?
Franklin:
Yeah, it was, it was a family experience. For me, I, I really, uh, didn't, as I grew up military, so every two
to three years would move around. So, I really didn't have this whole Asian, Filipino, identity experience.
But hanging out in the center really helped me come, come to peace or come to terms with my halfFilipino, half-Asian background. And it helped me find space. And then by being comfortable, I guess
others, seeing myself being authentic allowed them to just be themselves. Like, it was a really family
experience in a sense that when you walked into the center-- I was looking at some of the pictures from
back of the day. Some students just like took off their shoes. Like when you talk about a family or crosscultural experience, some at, when they go home, they take off their shoes before they enter their
house.
So, I thought it was the strangest and coolest thing. And, and looking back, I saw a picture where there
was some students without their shoes on. I'm like, “Oh my gosh, I totally forgot about that.” So, I, it was
a space for students to be themselves, and the more students that went into the Cross-Cultural Center
to… it always felt like there was a party. Like, there was a sort of celebration in the center, like we
packed the space and, and, and not just packing the space, it was always fun. And when we moved from
Craven Hall, now the Administrative Building, it‘s that small little conference room that's as big as this
space. We moved into the breezeway of the administrative building, and the door into the CrossCultural Center was in the breezeway where all the murals are at, at Cal State San Marcos.
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
6
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�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
So, whenever we were holding space and taking up space and having some dialogue, whenever the door
was open, it echoed inside. I think it was like a strategic way of the director that time to put it in that
space, because it was front and center. Everybody that walked through that hallway, the sound just
increased because it was in a hallway-- a breezeway. And when people looked into the space and saw
the fun you were having, it was-- the natural conversation was like, our question was like, “What's going
on in there? And how could I join it?” So, it was always packed, it was always welcomed. The peer
educators, as soon as somebody walked by, looked into the space, our, our goal was to engage with
them immediately. So if you looked into the door of the Cross-Cultural Center, it was like, “Hi! Welcome
into our space! We’ve got this and we've got that.” Just, it was always a welcoming and inclusive
atmosphere, total family. Like if, if a student didn't know it was here, that meant they never visited
Cougar Central or visited the Financial Aid Office. Like, in order to get to that, that office, that was one of
the main thoroughfares at breezeway with the murals is where the party was happening.
Meyer:
Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like some of the activism efforts were just getting kids in the door so they could
learn and, and, yeah-- enjoy, enjoy the space if they previously hadn't felt it on campus before. Can you
recount in an instance when something you learned at the CCC, maybe it opened your eyes to
something you hadn't thought about before, something just hadn't crossed your mind? Some-- um-maybe some issue you hadn't realized that underrepresented students were having on campus, that you
just hadn't-Franklin:
The, the food, the… definitely the food insecurity. <removing glasses> I'm, I'm not gonna be looking at
my phone or a laptop. Food insecurity was a big one for me. As a non-traditional student, I didn't have
that worry. I didn't have that concern. That was early conversations of like, “Where's our food pantry?
Other campuses have food pantries, but not Cal State San Marcos.” So, for me, I thought that was really
odd that here we are, we have a space for students, but we don't have, like, a food pantry to allow
students to get access to it. So that was, goes back to my earlier response of like, have food and
students will show up. So, knowing that students need food, and holding events to that had food was a
major draw. But yeah, it was a big shocker to find out that food insecurity was a big deal back then.
I mean, it still is now. There is a food pantry and there's food pantries all around. But, back then it was
like, yeah, we know it's a problem, but that's so new and our campus is still growing, that we can only
focus on this one space. And yes, the Cross-Cultural Center was one space, and there were other many
spaces on campus, but because it was this Cross-Cultural Center and filled with-- the line back then was
like first one in gets to own the space, so the Asian identified groups would pack the room and they're
like, “This is the Asian Center!” And I'm like, “This is a Cross-Cultural Center.”
Meyer:
Mm-hmm.
Franklin:
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
7
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�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
So, the conversation also started to get out where students were like, “Well, where's my center?” and
“Where's my center?” and Pride Center of the-- like, LGBT community was like, “Where's our center?”
And, it just started, “Where's the Women in Gender Equity Center?” So, because of the fun and the joy
that was a party-like atmosphere, other, other students were like, “Uh, where's my space?” And, so,
that was a bit jarring for a campus from my perspective to not have all spaces, but also no time and
place-- like, the university was still pretty young. Like, campuses just don't pop up and have everything
all at once. It has to be responsive to the community that evolves and grows there. And Cal State San
Marcos has done that.
Meyer:
Right. Wait for the community to ask for what they need rather than just tell them what they need.
Franklin:
Yep.
Meyer:
What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with these other centers?
Franklin:
I, it's-Meyer:
It's a, it's a hard question, yeah-Franklin:
Yeah. So, because they're all, all these different centers are very specific to an identity group. The CrossCultural Center is … I don't know if they would take the lead or, um, I don't know. It's a, it's a central hub
that… and the first center that, it's been here. Just because it's been here the longest doesn't mean it
has to stay that way. So, watching it evolve and grow, and how it collaborates with other centers has
been really important. So, I don't know. I don't know if that answers your question.
Meyer:
Mm-hmm. No, it does. It does, yeah.
Franklin:
Once its role, its—
Meyer:
There's no right answer to the question. Yeah. Yeah. It's exactly… building off that, what direction do
you think the CCC should grow in? What, what areas do you see room for improvement in students that
could be better served, or maybe--- you know, yeah.
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
8
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�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
Franklin:
Yeah. It's one of those, like… oh, it's almost like a innovation hub—
Meyer:
Mm-hmm.
Franklin:
And a business incubator. So, when you look at it from... I'm going, I'm gonna dip back into the
marketing hat--- it starts off as an incubator group for students that want to form community, and, once
that group has been given the energy and the resources that they need, and the-- the sense of, you can
advocate for yourself and advocate…. and that advocation gets you, it doesn't get you a center, but it
helps consolidate your voice so that you can move the students and empower the students to ask and
request for space. So, yeah, I, I look at the Cross-Cultural Center as like a, a identity group incubation
center. So, students leverage a space, become empowered, and then get what they need and go up to
leadership or to student leadership— ASI--- and say, “Hey, look, where's our space? Why don't we have
it X, Y, and Z? Like, we've been asking for it for this long.” Like, it's a, it's a great spot to start.
Meyer:
I understand you still work in--- of course, you work on Cal State San Marcos campus, and I just wanted
to ask about what ways that your experience and your time with the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] helped
shape your outlook and your professional life?
Franklin:
Uh, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I wouldn't have known that student affairs was a job.
Meyer:
Yeah.
Franklin:
And, yeah, so Cross-Cultural Center really impacted my career trajectory. I, I didn't know that this, I
didn't--- when I went to Cal State San Marcos, I did not know that you could work in higher education.
And I didn't know that was even a major. And, there's an entire master's degree around student affairs,
and I'm like, this is cool. I myself didn't go that route because I was already a non-traditional student. I
came with a skill set that I would've already learned in the student affairs master's program. I stayed at
Cal State San Marcos, and I got a master's of education and just made it my own and focused on LGBTspecific stuff. But, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I would not have known that there's a student
affairs professional career. I wouldn't have known to actually work in higher education. And then this
whole concept of like, you're a state employee. Like, I didn't-- like when I originally said, “Oh, gosh, I'm
about to be 30,” it's--- “I need to look for retirement!” I didn't know that working for the state of
California, the retirement is, like, this unicorn that doesn't exist anymore. So, like, private businesses
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
9
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�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
don't even offer half of which you get as a state employee. And, and that comes with a, a rub as well,
because when you're a new professional in, student affairs or just in in higher education, you have to,
you have to put in your, your dues and start at the bottom and work your way up, learn the skillsets,
apply for another job if you see one that better fits you grow within your role. But all of those things I
would've never known about had it not been for the Cross-Cultural Center. So, for me, it really had a
huge impact on my personal life and professional career as well.
Meyer:
I understand that you and a lot of the peer educators became really good friends, and I was just
wondering if either with them or with other students at the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center], if there's any
like, great memories of the retreats or any of the events that you wanted to share, or just talk about.
Franklin:
Ooh, great events. Facilitating All People's Celebration was always a, fun-- just because it was a
culminating award ceremony to recognize other student leaders on campus for various social justice
awards. That was really cool. A big one for me was, and I still see it today, is my first professional role in
the Cross-Cultural Center. There was a gap in between my undergrad and my master's program. There
was a, a, a gap in professional service. So basically, the director or the co-direct, uh, assistant director at
the time of the Cross-Cultural Center had left, no longer worked for the university. And the director of,
Student Life, the leadership said, “Hey, uh, because you're super engaged as a peer educator and you
finally finished your undergrad, we could-- there's this emergency hire position that we could hire you
for three months or six months, but it ends at six months.”
There's, there's no, we're--- we just need you to hold the spot, keep the seat warm, and keep the
processes and the function of the Cross-Cultural Center moving forward because you know all the peer
educators and you've been in this role-- and a lot of the peer educators graduated and a new set came
in. But the ones that had didn't graduate that were there, it was a really good opportunity for a good
three to six months to be engaged in the student work where I evolved from student to young
professional. And a big event that I had to do was create this mural, and I don't know how many panels
it was, but it was maybe a hundred different pieces. And it was this giant picture, and it was divided into
little one-foot-by-one-foot squares, or 12-inch-by-12-inch squares.
And it made this huge mural and one giant design, but everybody got a one-foot-by-one-foot portion of
it, and they got to paint it and add their own flare to the image. Because, once pulled back together, it
would show a, a great--- it was like a kaleidoscope of all kinds of different perspectives, even though we
knew it was one giant mural but everybody had their own little one-foot-by-one-foot square to add their
own flavor and to add their own, this is Jay's square, or this was Stephanie’s square. It was really a fun
experience, to do a mural that's still on campus. And I see it, while it might not be in the Cross-Cultural
Center, I've watched this mural move from office, or Dean's conference room to Dean's conference
room, and it's being used as backdrops for, for pictures around campus. So I think it's just so neat to see,
being a part of the start, that it doesn't end, like, the… I've left my mark, or the peer educators have left
their mark, and that, that thing, that mural is still being leveraged today. It's just pretty awesome.
Meyer:
That's really cool. So you were, you were basically an interim director? For a little while?
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
10
2023-05-01
�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
Franklin:
I, I wouldn't say a director-Meyer:
Program lead or something?
Franklin:
Coordinator.
Meyer:
Coordinator. Okay.
Franklin:
And yeah, I like to say, “Well, the director, the associate director left on the…” of course, no. Titles mean
nothing.
Meyer:
Yeah.
Franklin:
But it was-- I, I definitely enjoyed that first experience in Student Affairs. And once I got into Student
Affairs and that six months ended, it coincided with me getting hired at Asher University. And… that is
not student affairs, it was just transcript analysis. And then, coming back to Cal State San Marcos in fall
of [20]09, working for Extended Learning, the self-support unit of the university, they don't receive any
state funds. And it was ten-- a decade of my experience was in self-support. And then, when the
pandemic hit, my skillset got repurposed, and off to Student Affairs I went, and now I'm back in Student
Affairs. So it's like, really full circle again, like yeah. It's pretty wild.
Meyer:
Yeah. So, um, I know it's not related to the Cross-Cultural Center, but could you talk a little bit about
directing Student Affairs during the pandemic?
Franklin:
Yeah. Uh, it was, I was basically supporting the director, the inaugural director of the Success Coaching
Program and Office of Coaching Success. And, it was basically-- my skillset was leveraging a database to
match 1500-plus students with-- I want to say-- eighteen success coaches? We’re a unionized
environment, so, we had full-time staff, half-time staff and quarter-time staff. We had 1500 incoming
first-year students that we needed to engage with and connect that student to Cal State San Marcos,
even though we were in a virtual environment. So, leveraging technology appropriately. We sent text
messages, of course, we called and sent emails, but as we know for sure, students or students in general
don't read emails and they didn't know pick up calls from people that they don't know. So, sending
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
11
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�JAY FRANKLIN
Transcript, Interview
2023-04-12
memes to students to get them engaged, and we knew what the life cycle was like, because there's only
sixteen weeks in a semester and we knew of certain in intervals in the semester, students like need to
fill out their financial aid, meet with an academic advisor, check in to see how you're doing, how are
they engaging or finding a sense of community.
So, it goes back to that community feeling. While it might not be a Cross-Cultural Center specific,
engaging in with a student to help them find their, their sense of being, or their sense of place, or their
sense of connection-- connecting to community was what we were able to do when the pandemic hit,
helping the students find their place. Even though it was virtual.
Meyer:
It sounds like you've always been doing that. Yeah. It sounds like you've been doing that since the first
day you set foot on campus, just helping other students find their place. That's really cool. Well, I just
wanted to thank you so much for, for coming in and doing this interview and, yeah, that's all the
questions I have for today. But, thank you!
Franklin:
That's awesome. Thank you for having me.
Transcribed by Madeleine
Meyer
12
2023-05-01
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Transcripts
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An account of the resource
Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
Dublin Core
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Franklin, Jay. Interview transcript. April 12, 2023.
Description
An account of the resource
Jay Franklin was a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM during the early days of the program and university. He was instrumental in the creation of many of the programs and early marketing campaigns for the center, and worked as a peer educator to provide what we would now call intersectional support for LGBTQ+ students. Eventually, he made his way back to CSUSM, where he now works in the Dean of Student Affairs office.
This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos.
Creator
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Jay Franklin
Contributor
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Madeleine Meyer
Date
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2023-04-12
Subject
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California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center
California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs
Education, Higher
Human rights
LGBTQ+ activism
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
San Marcos (Calif.)
Virginia Beach (Va.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a>
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Jay Franklin
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Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found.
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Text
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SC027-026
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Cross-Cultural Center oral history project
CSUSM history
LGBTQIA+ experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/49655703ca9580fa7a280e4ff737314a.pdf
39f896b95a878e35d72cb83b35512638
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Transcripts
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Galyean, Thomas. Interview Transcript, November 12, 2024.
Description
An account of the resource
Thomas Earl Galyean was a Captain in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War. He served with the 7-17th CAV as commanding officer of the aero rifle platoon, securing landing zones for aircraft. Galyean then served as an Assistant S3 for the operations section of headquarters, ensuring that aircraft received their assignments. Raised on his family’s chicken hatchery in San Marcos, California, Galyean narrates his family history, his decision to join the U.S. Army, and his interest in helicopter flight. Galyean describes his experience in flight school, including reflections on media representations of military training and the Vietnam War. Galyean describes his unique role while serving stateside, forming a military response team to suppress riots in the wake of the 1968 Democratic National Convention. Galyean meditates on the impact of controversial topics, such as the My Lai massacre, civilian casualties, and the rules of engagement. Galyean reflects on religion, comradery, family, and how the military changed his life.
Creator
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Thomas Galyean
Contributor
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Jason Beyer
Adel Bautista
Justin Gans
Date
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2024-11-12
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
San Diego (Calif.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
Texas
California
Kentucky
Vietnam
Central Highlands (Vietnam)
Ho Chi Minh Trail (Vietnam)
South Vietnam
Laos
Cambodia
Chicago (Ill.)
Brownsville (Tex.)
Brawley (Calif.)
Escondido (Calif.)
Imperial County (Calif.)
Sacramento (Calif.)
Louisiana
Alabama
Arkansas
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
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Thomas Galyean
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text
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GalyeanThomas_BeyerJason_2024-11-12_transcript
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States. Army—Veterans
Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975
chicken farm
U.S. Forest Service
El Cariso Hot Shots
Reserve Officers' Training Corps
San Marcos High School (Calif.)
University of California, Los Angeles (Calif.)
helitack
Loop Fire (Calif.)
flight school
Fort Wolters (Texas)
Fort Knox (Kentucky)
The Personal Experience - Helicopter Warfare in Vietnam
We Were Soldiers
hunter-killer team
Bell AH-1 Cobra
Pleiku (Vietnam)
Phan Rang (Vietnam)
Bearcat (Vietnam)
napalm
Fort Rucker (Alabama)
Fort Hood (Texas)
1968 Democratic National Convention
Gray Air Force Base (Texas)
Ground-Controlled Approach
Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association
7-17th CAV
University of Virginia
Qui Nhon (Vietnam)
My Lai (Vietnam)
free-fire zone
return fire
law school
attorney
Fort Polk (Louisiana)
Community history
San Diego Veterans History Initiative
Veteran experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e39a7269adfb6f617332ddb8b0f26292.pdf
93a95fbeaad3844a182564173482e50e
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Title
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Transcripts
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An account of the resource
Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
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Gilmore, Geoffrey. Interview transcript, April 14th, 2021.
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Geoffrey Gilmore played a key role in the development of the Black Student Center at CSUSM. In this interview, Gilmore touches on the issues of Black people within academic spaces and his experience helping students to succeed on a university level. Dr. Gilmore also discusses his own history as he moved from Los Angeles to Seattle, and back to California.
Creator
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Geoffrey Gilmore
Contributor
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Sierra Jenkins
Date
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2021-04-14
Subject
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Activism, Student
Anti-Black Racism
California State University San Marcos, Black Student Center
Student Success, Black
Black experience in America
Coverage
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Los Angeles (Calif.)
Seattle (Wash.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en." target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>
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Geoffrey Gilmore
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text
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GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_transcript
Is Part Of
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Black Student Center Oral History Project
Black experience
Black Student Center Oral History Project
-
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Oral Histories
Description
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Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched.
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Sierra Jenkins
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Geoffrey Gilmore
OHMS Object
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.xml
Interview Keyword
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Black Student Center
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6.0 Gilmore, Geoffrey. Interview April 14th, 2021. SC027-04 01:12:56 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection Campus oral histories CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund.
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 ; csusm Black Student Center student success California State University San Marcos Black experience Geoffrey Gilmore Sierra Jenkins moving image GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5092b218abace83b431090029a7e6156.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 36 Childhood Gilmore briefly discusses his childhood growing up in Seattle and his feeling of isolation without close family. Seattle ; Los Angeles ; isolation ; family 0 177 Developing an understanding of Blackness Gilmore speaks about how his understanding of blackness came mostly from books, documentaries, lectures, and his family and peers. self-education ; informal education 0 300 Learning about Black history and the Black experience in childhood and adolescence Gilmore talks about her exposure to Black history in school, which was largely misinformation and seen through a lens of whiteness. Black history ; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Malcom X ; Civil Rights Movement ; Black Panthers ; power ; teacher 0 680 College experience Gilmore reflects on his time in college at Washington State University. In contrast to his earlier education experience, he was able to take Black studies courses and interact with a diversity of Black people. He talks in length about a television series titled “Them” and how its premise and conclusion has impacted him. Black history ; Black studies ; Black and white relations ; Them television series ; racism ; power dynamic 0 1703 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements Gilmore reflects on his main philosophy that is Black empowerment through education. He has spent his career helping students to realize how they can succeed in education and in their careers. educational philosophy ; student success ; empowerment through education ; student struggle ; student learning ; remedial education 0 2624 Early focus of the Black Student Center's initiatives, programming, events Gilmore speaks about many events sponsored by the Black Student Center. From his perspective, the main purpose of the Center was to be focused on education and student success. Black Student Center ; education ; learning ; events ; Kwanzaa ; Black Panters ; Tulsa Massacre ; Black health 0 2992 Gilmore's role in establishing the Black Student Center Gilmore speaks about his role in establishing the Center, including his initial oversight of the Center. From his perspective, the main purpose of the Center was to be focused on education and student success. Black Student Center ; student success ; Dr. Gail Cole-Avent ; John Rawlins III ; Jake Northington ; organizational structure 0 3147 The process of creating the Black Student Center Gilmore discusses the initial push by students for a Black Student Center. Black Student Center ; meeting ; President Karen Haynes ; formal request 0 3295 Leaders of the Black Student Center project, their contributions, and unsung heroes Gilmore mentions how to find a list of people who were involved in establishing the Black Student Center. He also talks about the faculty and staff working behind the scenes on this student-driven initiative Black Student Center website ; CSUSM faculty ; CSUSM staff ; student-driven 0 3441 University Administration’s vision for the Black Student Center Gilmore speaks about the priorities for the Black Student Center being student success, engagement, and involvement. The Black Student Center was moved from Student Academic Support Services to Student Life. Black Student Center ; student success ; student engagement ; Student Academic Support Services ; Student Life 0 3607 Opposition to the creation of the Black Student Center Gilmore briefly speaks to campus worries about the establishment of a Black Student Center on campus. Black Student Center ; white student center ; pushback 0 3732 Experiencing the Grand Opening of the Black Student Center/BSC's impact on the campus communitiy Gilmore reflects on the grand opening of the Center, especially the emphasis on creating relationships with the local Black community. grand opening ; relationships ; local service area ; Black Student Unions ; pipeline ; community members ; careers ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Jack and Jill organization ; conference 0 4118 Personal impact of the Black Student Center on Gilmore Gilmore reflects on how the educational events and connection with students in the Black Student Center impacted him. educational events ; student connection 0 4273 Future expectations of the Black Student Center Future expectations of the Black Student Center. Gilmore shares his expectation for taking the Black Student Center to the next level. Dr. Gail Cole-Avent ; John Rawlins III ; student success ; graduation 0 oral history Dr. Geoffry Gilmore specifically touches on the issues of Black people within academic spaces and his experience helping students to succeed on a university level. Dr. Gilmore also discusses his own history as he moved from Los Angeles to Seattle, and back to California. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:00.000 Today is Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at two zero eight p.m. I am Sierra Jenkins, student at CSU San Marcos, and today I'm interviewing Dr. Geoffrey Gilmore for the Black Student Center oral history project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Student Canter and CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Dr. Gilmore, thank you for being here with me today. How are you doing? Geoffrey Gilmore: I'm doing well. Thank you. Jenkins: Glad to hear it. So I'm just gonna' jump right in. So our first question for today is where were you born and where did you grow up? Gilmore: I was born in, I was born in, in Los Angeles, California, and I grew up in Seattle, Washington. Jenkins: How was it growing up in Seattle as compared to Los Angeles? Gilmore: It was different, you know, it was, you know, it was a lot, it was a lot different. 00:01:00.000 --> 00:02:00.000 It was isolating in the sense that, in the sense that, that the family that we had here in California was very expansive. We have a lot of family who had migrated and settled and stayed in the Los Angeles area for a long time. And so I've got a lot of family in the Los Angeles area and particularly in Pasadena, California, and you know, in Washington, when we moved up there, that wasn't the case. I think, a little later on, we had a couple of cousins 00:02:00.000 --> 00:03:00.000 who were up there, but, who had moved up there, but other than that there wasn't, there were not, there were not that many. So yeah, it was different. Jenkins: How old were you when you moved to Seattle? Gilmore: I was, I was very young. I was four years old. Jenkins: Okay. And how old were you when you moved back out to California? Gilmore: When I moved back to California, I was, I was 30. Jenkins: Oh, wow. So you definitely grew up in Seattle completely. Gilmore: Right. Jenkins: How did you come to your understanding of Blackness? Gilmore: A lot of it, I would say a lot of it came from 00:03:00.000 --> 00:04:00.000 experience and then there was, family as well. And then on top of that, there was the education I received. And I will emphasize that when I say education, I'm not talking about education in the formal sense of school, although school did attempt to educate me to accept what the role that society had actually established for Black people in this country. But, you know, it was more so self-education, as well as informal 00:04:00.000 --> 00:05:00.000 experiences, where maybe peers or other members within the Black community had actually referred me to information from different books, documentaries, and, having attended different lectures, all that kind of stuff. So educationally, it was largely informal but then, of course, like I said, there's the life experience as well as, the education that came from family. Jenkins: Thank you for that. What were you taught in childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black experience? Gilmore: It's 00:05:00.000 --> 00:06:00.000 interesting that you asked that question. Really when it came down to Black experience, what I was educated is that in school in particular, is that Black people are in a lower social class than white people. And really than anybody else in the world that we are at the bottom when it comes to when it comes to social class, based on race and was also educated--actually, I'll tell you what--I'll tell you a story that sort of underscores what that was. I can remember, I believe it may have been 00:06:00.000 --> 00:07:00.000 in the fourth grade that this really occurred. We were learning about, I guess, quote, Black history in the classroom, and it was all about slavery and the struggle of the Black people in the Civil Rights Movement, and how Martin Luther King was this great person because he encouraged the struggle to be non-violent, whereas Malcolm X and the Black Panthers were violent, racist, haters of white people and wanted to kill white people and 00:07:00.000 --> 00:08:00.000 all this kind of stuff. And as she went into that part of our education, I can remember that one of the white students in the class had raised his hand and asked the teacher a question, and the question that he asked was if we were to ever let Black people have power then would they put us in slavery and do the same things to us that we've done to them. And the teacher thought about the question for a moment and really her answer to that question reinforced what the intention 00:08:00.000 --> 00:09:00.000 of that lesson was, right? And really, reinforced what the whole message about power in this country is all, as it pertains to race, is all about. And her answer to the question was you know that's a really good question. I don't know. And so the thing is, just in looking at, in really unpacking that question and what the student was asking, first of all just in asking, if we ever let Black people have power, first of all, that means that the white people have the 00:09:00.000 --> 00:10:00.000 power, and the only way that Black people can ever have power is if the white people let Black people have power. Right? And so that's the first thing. And then, the second thing was this fear that what they have imposed on Black people would be reciprocated back to them and all of that. Right? And just in what the teacher was saying all of that message was the message that she clearly intended to get across given the answer to that question. And that answer basically confirmed that, yes, her intent was to--what's to say that white people have all the power 00:10:00.000 --> 00:11:00.000 and the only way Black people can ever have power is if white people let them have power? And that it is a real fear of white people that Black people with power would return the evil that has been imposed on our people. So that was the gist of the formal education that I was given about Black people in school. And I can tell you that really from year to year moving on from there, and even before that, that was the message that was being delivered. That was the, that was what we were being educated to 00:11:00.000 --> 00:12:00.000 believe. Jenkins: That's horrible. That's such an interesting story to have experienced in fourth grade. What did you learn after adolescence prior to coming to CSUSM? Gilmore: Well, there's a whole lot of time in between adolescence and CSUSM. So, I would say--I guess you're talking about, after I left high school, correct? Jenkins: Yes. Gilmore: Okay. So when I left high school and went to college, it was different. And it was different in the sense that while 00:12:00.000 --> 00:13:00.000 attending a predominantly white college, or university, I also, the company I kept was largely Black. We had a sizable enough Black community at Washington State that really was who I was with the majority of the time I was there, you know? And so educationally speaking, it was different in the sense that, at this point I'm actually--I could actually take Black studies courses 00:13:00.000 --> 00:14:00.000 and actually learn more in a formal educational setting about Black people in this country and around the world. On top of that, there was the informal education, that was in the same vein, along the same vein of what I had mentioned before with peers and with other people in the community and what--really just being referred to different books, different documentaries, all that kind of stuff. And even in special lectures and all that kind of stuff. And even that, 00:14:00.000 --> 00:15:00.000 looking at a lot of these things on my own, that was a big part, but also, I would say that interacting with people who had come to Washington State from a continent, that was a huge educational experience in itself as well. And to be able to learn more about the continent and about what had, what had actually gone on the continent beyond slavery, beyond the slave trade, was a very illuminating experience. And so that kind of gets back to your previous 00:15:00.000 --> 00:16:00.000 question about what I learned about Black people growing up. And one thing that I would say that I walked away from my K-12 experience with was the warped understanding that Africa was all about National Geographic or apartheid, one of the two. And so therefore, my perspective was that anybody from, anybody who I met from Africa, either lived in apartheid under the apartheid system, being oppressed by white people, or they live like National Geographic in the bush. And that was my understanding 00:16:00.000 --> 00:17:00.000 coming out of high school and it was very illuminating to be able to go to college and actually get to know and interact with people who had come over to the United States from the continent and get their college education at Washington State like I did. And in doing that, that understanding or that misunderstanding, and that miseducation as to what Africa was all about was dispelled definitively in the--through those interactions. 00:17:00.000 --> 00:18:00.000 And I would have to say that what, in learning about what had actually occurred in various places around the continent over, around the continent that I came to realize that I'd been lied to, and it's that sort of thing to where when you have a--let's say if you're talking to your parents growing up and they asked you a question about what happened and you give them a part of the story but not the whole story as to what happened and what are they going to say? They're going to say that you lied. Right? And essentially 00:18:00.000 --> 00:19:00.000 that's what happened in my educational experience, that a part of the story that really made them look good or powerful maybe--I wouldn't even say look good because much of our story in this country as it pertains to Black and white race relations much of that is rooted in pure evil, you know? And I don't know if you've seen that, the Lovecraft Country show, or if you've seen Them, which just came out on Amazon Prime. Jenkins: I've heard a lot about it, and I haven't heard the best of things. 00:19:00.000 --> 00:20:00.000 And that's what kind of pushed me away from it. 'Cause it has a lot of our trauma on screen and some of that can be triggering. So I kind of stayed away from it. I've planned to watch Lovecraft, 'cause I know that that one has more of a better ending, but I've heard that Them doesn't really come to a conclusion--that it, it's kind of just like our trauma for entertainment. Gilmore: Them had a conclusion. Jenkins: Oh, it did? Gilmore: Yes, it did. And it had a very powerful conclusion at that. And I would say that as far as that show is concerned, that it is important for us to watch that, the creator's expression of 00:20:00.000 --> 00:21:00.000 the Black experience, is through that, through that program because the creator really nailed the trauma as you put it of the Black experience in this country 100%, and the way in which he did it, in my opinion, was pure genius, you know? So, I would highly, highly, highly recommend it, very highly recommend it. It was difficult to watch, and it was painful in much--I would say the majority of it was painful, but the way in which it ended, it ended 00:21:00.000 --> 00:22:00.000 with power, and again, I most definitely wholeheartedly recommend that show. There's a lot to unpack in that show. And one of the things about it is that we recognize our experience and the experience of those who came before us because I'll tell you one of the things about watching something like that, right? Is where we can hear about the experiences that the people who came before us went through, right? But to really see it and to really understand it is a whole 'nother thing. And to really get down to the 00:22:00.000 --> 00:23:00.000 evil of racism that has existed in our country and still exists in our country is critical for us to really wake up and determine our place in the society. Really the way in which the system has been set up and continues to be set up is that we're supposed to know our place in a society. We're supposed to know our role and stay in it, you know? And that's the way that it's designed. But if we're all to also understand that the, 00:23:00.000 --> 00:24:00.000 really the power to determine what our role is going to be in society and take that role on, the power to do that actually lies within ourselves to make that determination and to and stand by it, you know? And so that's where I think that this program really hit the nail on the head and really delivered that message. And the other thing, too, is that it's one of those things where I was watching--in watching the show, 00:24:00.000 --> 00:25:00.000 it made me think about my grandfather, right? And I had to go back and really think about what the kinds of things that my grandparents would say about their experiences and what their attitudes were. You know, what about this society and about what was and was not possible, all kinds of stuff, right? And in doing that, I actually just on a whim typed my grandfather's name into Google and looked up 00:25:00.000 --> 00:26:00.000 --and was trying to look up and see if there was any information there about him and about that time, and in doing so, I came across an article that was about my great-grandmother in the LA (Los Angeles) Times. And the article was really just a human interest piece that was talking about her because she had turned a hundred and really, in coming to California, that's where a lot of family just actually just came from her and is in the Los Angeles area as a result. 00:26:00.000 --> 00:27:00.000 And there was one part in there where they were talking to her, and she was talking about coming to California and how--from the deep South--and how that, and how, in some ways what she experienced in California was worse than what she experienced in the deep South. And that's where it--that show really resonated because that's what the show is centered on. Centered on Black people coming to California from the South. And moving into neighborhoods that are 00:27:00.000 --> 00:28:00.000 predominantly, if not all white. And how they were and how they were received. And so I can--it gave a picture as to what may have been behind that statement, you know? Yeah. So-- Jenkins: I’ll try it. I will, but 'cause my grandma, she also had a similar experience. She came from Seattle to California around the fifties. And so, but she lived in like a Black area. She, yeah. Gilmore: Okay. Jenkins: How has Black social justice and activism such as the Civil Rights Movement, feminism, the natural hair movement, and Black Lives Matter affected you? 00:28:00.000 --> 00:29:00.000 Hmm. How has it affected me? Jenkins: Yes. Gilmore: You know, I'll tell you what, when I was in school, I was very much involved in social justice and activism on our campus at Washington State. I would also say that when it comes to 00:29:00.000 --> 00:30:00.000 my life beyond college, it has taken on a different form than the activism that I was involved in when I was a student in school. And the form that it is taken on has been more so in my work, right? And so we can look at that basically, given that I've been in education, it's been more about empowerment through education, and that has actually been a philosophy that I have, 00:30:00.000 --> 00:31:00.000 that has, that has grounded in my work. That philosophy of empowerment through education has grounded my work. And that would be through math, through writing, through--and really through looking at ourselves and looking at our history and where we come from and also looking at the possibilities of where we can go and--if we so desire and how to get there. And that's where I would say that connecting the students to resources, helping students to see that 00:31:00.000 --> 00:32:00.000 what they may have thought was out of reach when it comes to their education is actually actually tangible. It's possible to learn this stuff. And one of the things--we talk a lot about impostor syndrome. That's something, that's a term that I've heard used quite a bit when it comes to people not realizing or understanding that they can actually learn what's there and that it's not a reflection of their intelligence or ability that they struggle with certain 00:32:00.000 --> 00:33:00.000 material because the thing is that when it comes down to it, say for instance, we struggling with math, right? And I've heard so many students saying that I'm just not good at math. Right? And the thing to understand there is that there's no such thing as not being good at math. The thing to understand is that you are in school and in being in school, you're here to learn. And the fact that you don't know the information that is being presented to you in the classroom--is not--that's the way it's supposed to be, right? Because you're here to learn it, you know? And so you're not going into the classroom already knowing how to do what they're presenting to you. 00:33:00.000 --> 00:34:00.000 Otherwise you're wasting your time. If you're just sitting there to showcase that you know how to do stuff that--and and basically pay him money to take a class, to show you how to do stuff that you already know how to do, you know? And so that is--that has been what a large part of what I've done after college. One thing, for instance, was at Washington State, I was Director of the Freshman Seminar Program at Washington State for a while. And while I was doing that I was called by the athletics department. Right? And they had all these football players 00:34:00.000 --> 00:35:00.000 during the summertime who were taking a math course that they were failing. And in order to be eligible to play in the fall, they absolutely had to pass this class. And so they called me in to help them pass the--help them with the math and to help them pass the class. And so I did that and what we ended up doing was we ended up addressing the concepts that they were being presented in that class. And as they address those concepts, they gained, they started gaining understanding of how these things work, of how the concepts that they were being presented with work and on how to use those--and how and when to use the different concepts that they were being given 00:35:00.000 --> 00:36:00.000 and what they ended up discovering was that the knowledge that they had previously thought was unreachable and was out of--and unattainable was actually accessible and that all they had to do was the learning, right? And so coming to that understanding that just because I don't know what's--what this is all about going into it, doesn't mean that I can't learn it. Right? And what you ended up seeing was that with this, in this classroom full of football players, who I was working with, who are majority Black, finding out that that knowledge was accessible and actually coming to that understanding of what this 00:36:00.000 --> 00:37:00.000 education was all about, what you saw them do after that experience was consider the possibilities for their own lives and start to see that, well, Hey, maybe I can be a doctor, or maybe I can be an engineer. And what you saw was you saw these students changing their majors from general studies, or from social sciences, just anything that they had signed up for because they were told that it was going to be easier for them to do while they were playing football and change their majors to physics or to engineering or to pre-med and--or other fields that they thought might be 00:37:00.000 --> 00:38:00.000 of interest or might--that they might want to go into. And that was that empowerment, right? To where it's like coming to that understanding then they ended up really taking a look at their own lives and their own direction and determining where they were going to go. And for the next few years after that I would see those same students, those same football players, progressing through the different levels of math. They started out at the class that I was helping them with was considered a remedial math course, right? And in taking that class, they then 00:38:00.000 --> 00:39:00.000 advanced to the next level and then to the next level. And were taking calculus two, calculus three, depending on what their major was asking for and approaching it from that standpoint of learning. And to this day, a couple of those students are actually doctors to that--medical doctors. There's, another one that I know of who did and end up becoming an engineer and then there was, I think there were a couple others who went into business and actually started their own businesses and are successful in doing so. So that's what I'm talking about when it comes to empowerment through education. And even when I got here 00:39:00.000 --> 00:40:00.000 at Cal State San Marcos that was the thing that I was brought into address. I was brought into address math and writing. And in particular, those students who were coming into the university with a knowledge foundation that was below the college level, so it was a matter of helping those students to get up to speed with what they needed to know to do--to be successful in school. Right? And that's what I did. And that was actually one of the things that I had told--that I would tell students as they came into the university. And I would tell these students and you would see it, too, when it came down to actually talking to the students, what, you 00:40:00.000 --> 00:41:00.000 would see that in orientation, when they dismissed the students who did not need to attend the discussion on what was called remedial math or writing, then the students who were left were largely Black and Latino. And on any given day, that would--orientation day, when I would speak to the students, it would be the case. And that's the thing that I would that I will conclude with when I would talk to them, after telling them about the requirements, after telling them about the classes that they would have to take, and addressing all of those things. 00:41:00.000 --> 00:42:00.000 I would tell them to take a look at the name badges, where their test scores were printed out--the placement scores--and where the classes that they would have to take were listed and the--their requirement for early start was on there as well. And I would tell them that this is the most important thing that I was going to tell them out of that whole presentation. And in looking at that, their name badges with their test scores in those classes, I would tell them those scores and those classes are not a reflection of your intelligence, nor are they a reflection of your ability, but they are a reflection of what you know and what you don't know right now. And all of that that I just presented 00:42:00.000 --> 00:43:00.000 is, it's about what you are required to learn and to understand that when you are learning new knowledge, that that learning experience is supposed to be a struggle. And so the fact that you may have struggled with math and writing in the past, that does not mean that you are not good at it. It just means that you've come across some knowledge that you don't know right now, but you can learn it and that we're here to support you in learning it. And as a result of that, seeing countless students go through, starting at the, from the lowest levels of math and go on into, going into fields that they thought were not accessible to them just like the, those football players. Same with students who were, who needed 00:43:00.000 --> 00:44:00.000 a stronger foundation in writing, same kind of thing. And in doing so, helping them to think about what it was that they wanted to do and how it is that they can leverage what they were learning in the classroom to actually do those things that they wanted to do, you know? So that was the, that was what, has been in large part what my experience has been since leaving the state of Washington. There's been more and, as you know, I was a part of actually helping to establish the Black Student Center here at Cal State San Marcos, as well. And so when, that was 00:44:00.000 --> 00:45:00.000 in large part from the, from an administrative standpoint, but at the same time also setting the tone from an educational standpoint as to what the Center was to, what it was to be about, which was education, right? And learning and advancing yourself to go back into the community and build up the community. And so, when they were, there were quite a few things that we did to actually do that through the Black Student Center. One, I would say, was through 00:45:00.000 --> 00:46:00.000 a lot of the educational events that we put on. One of those events was that we brought a panel of Black Panthers to the University to speak on their experiences and what that was all about. And we also had a photography display up in the Library, where you had all these pictures of Black Panthers and narratives where they were telling their stories and their experiences in the movement. We also had an event where we, what we brought the founder of Kwanzaa to the University to preside over the Kwanzaa ceremony and to also educate us on where it came from 00:46:00.000 --> 00:47:00.000 and why it was, why was it established here in this country. We also brought in some people who, from Tulsa, Oklahoma, to talk about the Tulsa Massacre you know where--and I'm sure you've probably heard you, you're probably knowledgeable of that history. And it was those kinds of things that we did to really create a learning environment about the Black experience, as well as establishing a forum 00:47:00.000 --> 00:48:00.000 within the Black Student Center for students to exchange knowledge and also to learn from each other with what they were learning in the classroom and to help uplift each other in that sense. Another thing that we did was to also address the Black experience, whether that be in general or whether that be on this campus. And to really help students to come to an understanding of what it is that they're going through, and what it is that is happening with them 00:48:00.000 --> 00:49:00.000 when it comes to stress, when it comes to their interactions with others, and to understand that what they may be experiencing is not abnormal, and that there are many of us, have, and do experience the same things. You know, we brought in a psychologist from Student Health and Counseling Services to come in and talk about Black stress and how as Black people, there is so much that we carry around on a daily basis that 00:49:00.000 --> 00:50:00.000 is a huge contributor to the high blood pressure that many of us experience to the hypertension that many of us experience and into our general health. And so those are the kinds of things that we did with the, in establishing the Black Student Center. Jenkins: That definitely goes into my next questions that are all centered on the Black Student Center. So you touched on, kind of what, how, what you guys have done now that it's already created, but what role did you play in the beginning or the creation of the Black Student Center? Gilmore: So the Black Student Center was actually established in my area, 00:50:00.000 --> 00:51:00.000 which is Student Academic Support Services. Right? And so, you know Dr. Cole-Avent, right? Oh, you don't know Dr. Cole-Avent-- Jenkins: --I'm new, I'm like very new. Like I started fall 2020, so we've already, we've been in, quarantine and Zoom school, so I haven't gotten to know anybody in any fundamental way. Gilmore: Sure. Okay. So, but you know, Mr. Rawlins, John Rawlins? Jenkins: Yes. I met him and I also met Jake (Northington). Gilmore Okay. So Dr. Cole-Avent is Mr. Rawlins' direct supervisor. Right? And so I was 00:51:00.000 --> 00:52:00.000 essentially, when the Black Student Center was established, I was in that role, to where the Black Student Center, the Director of the Black Student Center reported to me. Right? And so in establishing the Black Student Center, the, like I had mentioned, the way in which I wanted to approach it was from more of an educational standpoint, more of a educational success standpoint. And with that, with that success, with the end goal of that success, actually being what I previously mentioned about being employed upon graduation and going out into the community and thriving in the community, and 00:52:00.000 --> 00:53:00.000 being that mover and shaker in this society. So that was the role that I played in the establishment of the Black Student Center. Jenkins: Okay. Had you seen a push for the creation of a center before? Gilmore: Had I done what? Jenkins: Had you seen a push for a center before it was created? Gilmore: Yes, actually. And when I was, I was actually at the forum where the president, our previous president, President Haynes, was speaking about the--she was speaking, I believe she may have been being, giving an update on the campus budget to the campus community. And 00:53:00.000 --> 00:54:00.000 there were some Black students who came to that meeting and essentially expressed the need and the desire for a Black Student Center on this campus. And so the president had informed the students that she was open to it and that and that they needed to submit a formal request. And so in the background, I was helping the students who were working on that formal request with the information that they needed to support that request. And so 00:54:00.000 --> 00:55:00.000 more information about the Black experience on this campus. And how students were performing in their classes on this campus and what a Black Student Center would do to bolster the success of Black students at CSUSM. Jenkins: It definitely sounds like you were one of the leaders in the creation of the Black Student Center. Were there anyone that worked on this project and their contributions, including any unsung heroes we may not know about? Gilmore: There were quite a few, and so 00:55:00.000 --> 00:56:00.000 I would say a lot of the people who were involved in the and actually establishing the Black Student Center at Cal State San Marcos are listed on the website under the history of the Black Student Center. So you can find a lot of the names there. As far as unsung heroes are concerned, I would say that there were quite a few faculty and staff who worked 00:56:00.000 --> 00:57:00.000 in the background in supporting the students to help them get the Center established, you know? And so this was in large part, it was a student-driven thing. Establishing a Black Student Center, it was definitely student driven, but at the same time, it was supported and--it was supported by a lot of our Black faculty and staff on this campus. Jenkins: Okay, awesome. What did the university administration communicate was their vision? You kind of already touched on this, that it was 00:57:00.000 --> 00:58:00.000 mainly education. And was there anything else that they envisioned? Gilmore: Yes. Let me, I'll tell you what, when it comes to the vision, right? I would say that student success was a large part of that. So students actually being successful in their classes and also going on into careers. 00:58:00.000 --> 00:59:00.000 That was a large part of it being in my area ; whereas, the other piece that they really wanted to be more emphasized was the student engagement piece and the student involvement piece, right? And so that's where you have it moving from Student Academic Support Services over to Student Life. And so now the emphasis, at least in the vision of the institution, 00:59:00.000 --> 01:00:00.000 really wanted to make this more, make the students, the Black Student Center, have more of a student engagement and student life emphasis. I don't--and that's not to say that there's no interest in student success and that that educational aspect is not is no longer a part of that part of that vision. But that's the vision that the institution really wanted to emphasize was the student life and student involvement aspect. Jenkins: Okay. When it came to the creation of the BSC, was there external or institutional pushback, and did you 01:00:00.000 --> 01:01:00.000 experience or witness any pushback on the creation of the Center within the Center or on social media? Gilmore: Well, I can answer the social media question right now. And that is that I didn't see anything on social media for the simple fact that I'm not on social media, so I try to keep my digital footprint pretty light. So I can't speak to what may have been going on social media. But one thing that I can say that I heard repeatedly was doesn't establishing a Black Student Center doesn't that, isn't that encourage more division and more in isolation of our Black students instead of folding them into the fabric 01:01:00.000 --> 01:02:00.000 of the entire campus community? And if we're going to have a Black Student Center, then why not a white student center? That was another thing that I heard. And then another thing that I heard was a worry that other groups might want a center as well. So what if the Asian students start asking for a center and all that kind of stuff and that was the, those were the type--kinds of things that I heard when it came to pushback. 01:02:00.000 --> 01:03:00.000 Yeah. I would just leave it at that, that was, those were the kinds of things that I heard. Jenkins: Okay. Were you at the BSC's grand opening? Gilmore: I was. Jenkins: Okay. What was your experience? Gilmore: I thought that it was a great experience. It was very celebratory experience. There were a lot of people who came out from the community and a lot of different constituents from our community in the area. Were very pleased to see this, the Black Student Center opening, and were actually very involved in what was going on in the Center. And it was one of those things where 01:03:00.000 --> 01:04:00.000 it opened the door to connect with a lot of people in our local service area to interact with our students. And, like one of the things, when you were talking about vision, one of the things we really wanted to do was to create relationships with the schools within our local service area, which extends from San Diego up to Riverside and Orange County. So we were in, we were engaging with schools as far out as 01:04:00.000 --> 01:05:00.000 Hemet and connecting with the BSU’s (Black Student Unions) that they had out there and in, Hemet, Murrieta, and Menifee, and going into Poway and right here in San Marcos and Oceanside and all over the local service area. And we were connecting with Black students and with Black community organizations and with the teachers and administrators and counselors who were working with the different student groups to really establish that connection in an attempt to 01:05:00.000 --> 01:06:00.000 create a pipeline into the University from those entities. And so that was a big part of it. Another part of it was in connecting with community members, one of the things that we also wanted to establish was a pipeline out of the University. And so what we wanted to do was to bring in various community members in different--in a wide range of professions--to come in and talk to the students and provide the, provide insight into different careers 01:06:00.000 --> 01:07:00.000 and in different professional fields for the students to be able to see themselves in those areas. And so that was one of the things that that grand opening really did was allow us to make those, allow us to make those connections and really build on those connections. Another thing that we did was we connected with the North County chapter of the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People). We connected with North County chapters of different NPHC (National Pan-Hellenic Council) organizations. So, and have those organizations different, doing different activities with the students on our campus. And one 01:07:00.000 --> 01:08:00.000 of the things that they were doing was in really promoting voting, so that was one just an example of one of the things that the community brought to the table. Another thing that we did was, it was, we connected with the Jack and Jill organization (a membership organization of mothers with children ages 2-19, dedicated to nurturing future African-American leaders), and they ended up having their national conference at CSUSM. So you had all of these Black students from all over, in fact, I saw people from the state of Washington who came in and people who I knew who came in and were a part of that. And it was a 01:08:00.000 --> 01:09:00.000 huge and very empowering experience to see and be a part of. So yeah, those were the things. Jenkins: The more I'm hearing about the grand opening of the BSC, I wish I was there, you know? Gilmore: Yes. Jenkins: We didn't have anything like that at CSUN (California State University Northridge), so it just sounds really amazing. My next question is what has been the impact of the BSC on you personally? Gilmore: The impact of the BSC on me personally. You know, I would say that the impact on me personally 01:09:00.000 --> 01:10:00.000 has been that, I too have been able to receive from the types of educational events that we put on and to learn from those events about things that I didn't know about and so education is, was a big part. Or has been a big part. The other very big part and was being able to connect with the students, you know? And so because I had the Black Student Center in my area then that was one of the places where I would come in and actually spend time with students. 01:10:00.000 --> 01:11:00.000 And I would say that, in my role, student interaction is something that doesn't occur as often as I would like. And so having oversight of the Black Student Center actually gave me the opportunity to interact with our students a whole lot more. And so that would--so those would be those things. And then also, as I mentioned, the connections around the community that were established. Those would be the impacts that the 01:11:00.000 --> 01:12:00.000 Black Center has had on me personally. Jenkins: Amazing. What do you expect to see next for the BSC? Gilmore: Well, I see the Black Student Center really just going to the next level under the direction of Mr. Rawlins and Dr. Cole-Avent. And really seeing the two of them bring to fruition the kinds of things that we've been talking about here, which is really that student success and also engaging students in those very meaningful 01:12:00.000 --> 01:12:56.000 activities and experiences that would contribute to their success as students and also to their success as professionals as they get ready to graduate and leave this University. Jenkins: (Unintelligible) Are there any questions I should have asked that I didn't? Gilmore: I think you have done an excellent job of asking questions in this interview and I can't think of anything. Jenkins: Awesome. Thank you. Let me see what I have here. Well, thank you for very much for your time today. And thanks for being a part of this project. We all really appreciate it. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 
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 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.xml GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.xml
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Gilmore, Geoffrey. Interview April 14th, 2021.
Description
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Dr. Geoffrey Gilmore played a key role in the development of the Black Student Center at CSUSM. In this interview, Gilmore touches on the issues of Black people within academic spaces and his experience helping students to succeed on a university level. Dr. Gilmore also discusses his own history as he moved from Los Angeles to Seattle, and back to California.
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SC027-04
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2021-04-14
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video
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Geoffrey Gilmore
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Sierra Jenkins
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Black experience in America
Activism, Student
Anti-Black Racism
California State University San Marcos, Black Student Center
Student Success, Black
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Los Angeles (Calif.)
Seattle (Wash.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
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Black Student Center Oral History Project
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/263b2399055fdac2b7ee4b09862c9925.pdf
c057803dbcbcd7c0815a75f8fc024020
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Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
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Goldberg, Merryl. Interview transcript, April 9, 2025.
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Dr. Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union.
This oral history was created in partnership with the CSUSM History Department and made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe.
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Merryl Goldberg
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Aaron Williams
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2025-04-09
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California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES
California State University San Marcos. Music
California State University San Marcos. School of Arts
Klezmer Conservatory Band
Klezmer music
Smuggling -- Soviet Union
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Boston (Mass.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
Soviet Union
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Merryl Goldberg
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text
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GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_transcript
Activists and activism
Art and artists
CSUSM history
History Department internship
Jewish experience
Women's experience
-
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Oral Histories
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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<p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p>
Oral History
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Aaron Williams
Interviewee
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Merryl Goldberg
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml
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music;activism;arts education;censorship
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6.0 Goldberg, Merryl. Interview, April 9, 2025 SC027-078 01:28:23 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was conducted in partnership with the CSUSM History Department, and made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm California State University San Marcos. Music California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES Klezmer music Klezmer Conservatory Band Soviet Union Boston (Mass.) San Marcos (Calif.) Smuggling -- Soviet Union music ; activism ; arts education ; censorship Merryl Goldberg Aaron Williams Video GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/93e37e5636e5ef1f864f806c9067fbf1.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and roles on campus Goldberg discusses her roles on campus as a music professor and Director of Center ARTES at Cal State San Marcos. She describes their current project ART=OPPORTUNITY that encourages arts education for all students. With assistance from several funders, Goldberg enthuses about the capability of Center ARTES to implement creativity in curriculum across California. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 324 Family and music education Now a professional saxophonist, Goldberg shares where her love of music originated. She talks about being immersed in a creative household, pursuing the saxophone despite initial hesitancy from her parents, and joining the prestigious New England Conservatory of Music. Goldberg also shares about performing professionally with the Klezmer Conservatory Band. 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 659 Klezmer Conservatory Band After sharing about her musical education and introduction to klezmer music, Goldberg recounts the foundation of the Klezmer Conservatory Band with Hankus Netsky at the New England Conservatory of Music. After completing her education, she supported herself financially with performances and private lessons. Since most of the klezmer music was previously never written down, Goldberg describes being able to improvise, learn, and transcribe music. 0 ["[\"\"]"] 1198 Family background and Jewish identity Goldberg delves deeper into her family background. Although her parents were not musicians, she describes their creativity that was passed on to her. She recounts witnessing her grandfather play alongside jazz pioneers like Duke Ellington and Nat King Cole. Despite not knowing it at the time, Goldberg reflects upon growing up in a lower-income community that fostered a child's creativity and imagination. Subsequently, Goldberg shares more about her family background, her Jewish identity, and the foundational aspects of Judaism that encourage creative education. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1980 Secret code with sheet music After describing her musical education, family background, and Jewish identity, Goldberg discusses her experience in the Soviet Union. Providing meaningful historical context, she describes the dire situation in the USSR faced by minorities and freethinkers alike. Utilizing her musical education, she recounts devising a secret code with sheet music. Goldberg then elaborates on why she felt compelled to take action, and why documenting stories of Jewish persecution mattered. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2874 Music as resistance and arts education During her time in the USSR, faced with interrogation and possibly incarceration, Goldberg now reflects on music as a form of resistance. She expresses the importance of freedom within one's own mind, which can and should never be policed or censored by fascism and oppression. Goldberg then describes implementing and reinforcing this philosophy through her work as a professor. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 4042 Why histories matter Wrapping up her own shared story, Goldberg states why people's stories matter. Comparing the Soviet Union in the 1980s to the USA in 2025, Goldberg stresses the importance of empathy, nuance, and compassion. She further elaborates on the preservation of voices under persecution in the past and present. Additionally, she discusses the serendipitous revelation of her secret code and an upcoming book about her experience smuggling out stories of Jewish persecution in the Soviet Union. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:17.000 Okay. Today is Wednesday, the 9th of April 2025. For the Special Collections of California State University of San Marcos, my name is Aaron Williams. And I am interviewing Merryl (Goldberg). Thank you for joining me. How are you? 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:20.000 I'm doing great, thanks. Thanks for having me. 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:39.000 Yeah, of course. So, this is for the oral history project with Special Collections. You are a professor on this campus in the School of Arts and Director of Center for ARTES. Am I pronouncing that right? 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:40.000 Yep. Center ARTES. 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:44.000 Okay. Can I quickly ask about that and your role on campus? 00:00:44.000 --> 00:01:13.000 Yeah, sure. So I'm a professor, music professor. I've been here for over thirty years. And Center ARTES is a center dedicated to ensuring that all kids have access to arts education. Or arts integration in the classroom, and working with school teachers and districts to create those opportunities so people feel comfortable integrating the arts throughout the curriculum. 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:25.000 Okay, cool. So do you work -- what does that look like for you and like the work you do? Like, what is your role in, or—sorry. What specifically do the work you do, if that makes sense? 00:01:25.000 --> 00:05:03.000 Yeah. So specifically, the work of Center ARTES, right now we have our ginormous project called Art=Opportunity. So, under Center ARTES, Art=Opportunities, there's myself, there are multiple faculty fellows who, you know, other members of the faculty, both in the School of Arts and in the School of Education. And actually one of our partners from San Marcos Unified (School District) is a fellow as well. We have several projects. One big one is creating career pathways for people who want to become arts teachers in schools, or teachers on special assignment where they can integrate the arts into the curriculum. By that I mean using music to teach biology, or visual art to teach reading or dance and science. There's just so many ways that the arts can really be foundational to learning and to knowledge and to kids' excitement and creativity and using their imagination. It’s really a foundational skill, the arts are. So, that's one of our big projects. We also have a lot of STEAM (Science, technology, engineering, arts, and mathematics) projects, which mean arts integrated into math and science and engineering. In fact, we have a whole group of STEAM ambassadors who are students who go out into schools doing the curriculum, developing STEAM curriculum, implementing it in schools. We have some podcasting that we do. We have a project called Harmony Hacks (funded by National Science Foundation that encourages women’s participation in computer science) in cooperation with Computer Science folks, which is coding through music. That's a really cool project. That's a—we have other projects too. And in the past, we've done quite a few professional development projects in schools. The DREAM Project, which is Developing Reading Education through Arts Methods. And SUAVE (Socios Unidos para Artes Via Educacion—United Community for Arts Education), which is an arts integration project. In addition to the actual hands-on projects and boot camps for teachers and for student teachers, we do quite a bit of documentation and evaluation of the programs as well. So that's a important aspect of what we do. What we do translates and has become a model statewide in several instances. And that really is something that I think is great cause our reach goes beyond here. I mean, here would be enough, but the fact that our reach goes beyond is pretty great too. And we have support from a number of funders. The—currently the Hewlett Foundation (founded in 1966 by William and Flora Hewlett in 1966 which awards grants that support diverse and inclusive causes) has been really generous with their support of our work. As been the Heller Foundation (awards funding that advances environmental and arts education opportunities). In the past we've had the Stewart Foundation (dedicated to programs that develop fundamental leadership skills for youth). We currently have a National Science Foundation (independent federal agency that funds non-medical science and engineering programs) grant. We've had California Arts Council (state agency dedicated to Californian culture that promotes creative arts education), National Endowment for the Arts (independent federal agency that funds artistic development). So, we're really a pretty robust center. And I would suggest anybody who is interested in looking at it in more depth could always go to csum.edu/artopp. 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:32.000 Right, that's how I was researching this previously—prior to this interview. I love that you were talking about how far your reach has went beyond this campus using music. And I want to now specifically talk about your love of music and how that, or where that came from. 00:05:32.000 --> 00:07:49.000 Oh, that's a great question. I am a professional musician. I play saxophone. I was on the road for thirteen years performing professionally all over the world with a band called the Klezmer Conservatory Band (formed by Hankus Netsky in 1980 ; Goldberg was also a founding member). Klezmer music is Eastern European Yiddish music, kind of like the real version of Fiddler on the Roof (1964 Broadway musical by Jerry Bock, Sheldon Harnick, and Joseph Stein that was based on Sholem Aleichem’s character Tevye the Dairyman). I come from a really artistic family. My father was a visual artist, actually a graphic designer. And his father, my grandfather, played viola in the Boston Pops (offshoot of the BSO founded in 1885 that plays popular and classical music) and in the Boston Symphony (Orchestra or BSO ; founded in 1881, the second-oldest major American orchestra) and with big bands (also known as jazz orchestras ; ensembles of about ten or more musicians that popularized jazz and swing music during the 1940s). And later in life, my grandfather was the musical director at WEZE in Boston, a radio station. So as a little kid, I remember distinctly going to see my grandfather play on the (Charles River) Esplanade (state park) in Boston on, you know, on multiple concerts. Including July 4th seeing him up on the stage, listening to him play. And when we visited my grandparents, my two aunts who lived next door would come on over. And my Aunt Zelde played piano, and she was a piano teacher. My grandfather and my aunt would perform for us all the time when we were little. So I had music in my background and my— oh, and we had a record collection like crazy. And my dad played music always in the house. I even have pictures of myself with my dad when I was probably like a year and a half, or not even two, playing the bongos and having a record player right next door. So when I was in third, fourth grade, I knew I wanted to play music, and I really wanted to play the saxophone because I saw a picture in my music book of a saxophone. And there was just something about it, maybe it had so many buttons and it was shiny. I was dying to play a saxophone. 00:07:49.000 --> 00:10:49.000 I told my parents I wanna play saxophone. And they said, “No, it's a boys instrument. You'll have to pick something else.” So I picked guitar, but I never gave up on the saxophone. I started taking guitar lessons, which I also loved. And at the studio where I took the guitar lessons, the Buddy Reis studio in Somerset, Massachusetts, they taught all the instruments. And so, I asked if I could try playing saxophone. And they let me. (laugher) I took saxophone lessons on the sly. By the time I was going into high school, I told my parents that I really needed to play the saxophone at that point because I wanted to be in the marching band, no guitars in the marching band. They finally, finally relented and said, “Okay, you can play a saxophone.” I said, “Well, I actually know how to play saxophone. I just need one at this point.” And I had one of the best music programs probably in the state of Massachusetts, just absolutely incredible. Played a lot of music, was in the concert band, the symphonic band, the orchestra marching band. Got a lot of music education, ultimately decided that I really wanted to major in music. And was super lucky to have gotten accepted into New England Conservatory of Music (founded in 1867 in Boston, Massachusetts), which is a very elite music school. It's kind of like Yale is to Harvard (two private Ivy League universities that maintain prestigious reputations). New England Conservatory of Music, NEC, is to Julliard. If you know music schools. Really topnotch and I just loved it. I loved being at the conservatory. While I was there, performed all the time. Ended up being part of this band that we put together for a Jewish music concert. We ended up naming ourselves Klezmer Conservatory Band (and) played on a concert. People went nuts. And then built up a repertoire and we were just in demand. Constantly in demand for performances. Then a famous radio personality called— whose name is Garrison Keeler, on a radio show called Prairie Home Companion (weekly radio show from 1974 to 2016 that reached over four million Americans at its height), heard of us. And then we got national exposure and started recording, and it just built from there, there, there. I love music. I love listening to especially jazz, Brazilian music. Anything with a really good beat I really like. 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:58.000 Yeah, I love hearing this passion of music. It's— I hope you don't mind, it's gonna be a prominent theme of this conversation. (overlapping dialogue) 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:00.000 Yeah, sure. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:08.000 You were mentioning the Klezmer Conservatory Band, and you mentioned you formed it, or were you— How did that start? 00:11:08.000 --> 00:14:00.000 Yeah, so I was a student at New England Conservatory of Music, and I was really into Jewish music. Jewish music is really diverse because Jewish people are in the diasporas (referring to Jewish communities outside their historical lands, particularly after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE). So, there's Jewish music from, let's say, Columbia in South America, from Eastern Europe, from the Middle East. One of the musics I loved like crazy was Yemenite music. There's a lot of Jewish Yemenite music, which is, it's got such an interesting sound to it, like (Goldberg vocalizes a Yemenite tune). It's very circular and it's fun to play and you can dance to it. And then it turns out there's actually a lot of Jewish themed classical music as well. So, for fun, I connected with a professor there, Hankus Netsky (multi-instrumentalist and chair of Contemporary Improvisation Department at the New England Conservatory). And he and I decided, wouldn't it be fun to have a Jewish music concert? And that played music that was, you know, everything from classical to Yemenite. He was really interested in klezmer, cause he had an uncle who had played in klezmer bands. I had not even heard of klezmer. But between Hankus and I and like a whole group of students, we put together this really cool program, very diverse program. At the end of it, we played three klezmer tunes that Hankus had brought to us. Now we learned those tunes by ear because they weren't written down. They were recorded on old 78s (vinyl records that play at 78 revolutions per minute, largely discontinued by the 1950s). And so, we would listen to the music and transcribe it note for note. And then we played together. So, one of the pieces we played on our very first concert, I think was “Silver Wedding,” which is a very upbeat piece. It sounds like this (Goldberg vocalizes tune). And, you know, really upbeat. Audience went cuckoo after we finished playing, wouldn't stop clapping. We didn't have an encore. So, we just played that tune again. And the rest is kind of history with regard to the Klezmer (Conservatory Band). But that's how it all started. So in a way, I was one of the, I was clearly one of the founders of the band, along with Hankus. And Hankus was really the one who brought that music to all of us. So, there you have it. 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:04.000 Do you remember about like, the time period? So it was when you were in college? 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:15.000 Oh, yeah. So that was, that first music concert was probably 1979 or 1980. 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:18.000 And this is at the Conservatory— sorry, New York? 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:18.399 In Boston. 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:20.000 Boston. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:26.000 Yeah. New England Conservatory (overlapping dialogue) New England Conservatory of Music in Boston. 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:27.000 Gotcha. 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:34.000 Actually kitty-corner (diagonally opposite) to Symphony Hall (concert hall that hosts the Boston Symphony Orchestra since 1900). It's in that part of Boston where there's quite a lot of music. 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:41.000 I have never left California, so everything in the East Coast is New York to my ignorant brain. (laughter) I apologize. Boston. 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:49.000 That's okay. As long as you're not a Yankees fan, it doesn't matter. Boston Red Sox, Yankees, big rivalry. So-- 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:50.000 Love the Red Sox. 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:51.000 There you go. 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:57.000 So, you started the music, the Conservatory— sorry— 00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:59.000 Klezmer Conservatory Band. 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:10.000 Klezmer Conservatory Band in Boston around 1979. After you left the (New England) Conservatory, how did you pursue music still? 00:15:10.000 --> 00:16:12.000 Right, so, let's see. I graduated the Conservatory in ‘81. We were already performing professionally. You know, getting gigs in the Boston area and in the Philadelphia area, some in New York. And as the band’s popularity grew we continued to perform. So that's how I made my living, was performing with the band because I got paid for all the concerts. Also got paid to play parties and bar mitzvahs and wedding anniversaries and, you know, lots of things like that. So my, basically, I pulled together a living by performing teaching private lessons and I taught in a school part-time as a, you know, I was a music teacher. My degree from New England Conservatory of Music was in music education and saxophone performance. 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:24.000 Yes. So, going with the— while performing with— music in Boston, what music did you lean towards? I'm guessing jazz, klezmer music? 00:16:24.000 --> 00:17:25.000 Yeah, klezmer music. Again, kind of like the Eastern European music. So I performed a lot— I mean, that was my main gig, was playing klezmer music. But I also did gigs with other kinds of music. Mostly classical. I was part of a classical like modern music ensemble. And we performed at the (New England) Conservatory as well. And that would be music that was so fun to play, might not have been as fun to listen to. Some crazy pieces with nursery rhymes and saxophone, or a solo saxophone, or saxophone quartet. Different pieces that were basically like twentieth century music or twenty-first century newly composed music. 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:44.000 So it sounds like you really enjoy experimenting with music and seeing where it could go. (Goldberg affirms). Earlier you were mentioning writing— having to transcribe music. Or write music yourself, as there wasn't written (sheet music) previously. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:18:34.000 Ah, so the klezmer music, we learned all of that by listening to old recordings. Or finding older musicians who might have played the music and learning from them, because none of it was written down. So that's how we learned all of that. The klezmer music. And so what we did is we would listen to it— exactly, transcribe it, write it down. Although when we performed in concerts, basically because we had learned it all by ear, we just played without music, without sheet music in front of us. I could play easily play concerts without any, you know, music in front of me because I knew all the tunes. It's a lot more fun to play without the music anyways cause you're not constrained by it. 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:53.000 Yeah, I cannot fathom that. Like, I played music in middle school and stopped. So obviously my knowledge is not at your level, but it was always, I'm sure, impressive. Or was it just like, was it just like innate or did, how did you get to that level? Just being able to play without sheet music. 00:18:53.000 --> 00:19:56.000 Without sheet music, you know, I think for musicians, once you know the tune you can just play it basically. Like for— in this genre of music anyways, or in any folk area, even in jazz I would say. Classical's a little harder because you have to be very exact. In klezmer music, you can just play. But I know what you mean because I look at people who are in the theater. In a million years, I could never memorize a play. I don't know how people do it. I don't know how the heck they can remember it. But maybe it is the same as, you know, the skill I have in music to be able to just play a whole concert without any sheet music because I know it, right? (Williams affirms). I guess that's a skill that actors have that's just a different part of the brain. But I can’t in a million years imagine being able to do that. 00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:15.000 It's fascinating, so thank you for that perspective. Cause yeah, it's unimaginable for me, both instances, acting and music. Thank you for sharing the, about your love of music. And the instrument. Saxophone— It was so interesting hearing how your parents were like, no, that's a boys' instrument. 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:27.000 I know. Well, I'm old, you know, (laughs) and people had those, you know, those kind of biases back then. But, you know, ultimately my parents gave in. 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:28.000 Right, of course. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.000 Yeah. 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.000 Just the initial, like hesitancy. 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.000 Yeah. 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:42.000 Why do you think— cause again, I mean, I'm not from that time. But I would've thought, “But they'd let you play guitar?” That also seemed like a little— 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:51.000 What was, you know, like an acoustic guitar, not an electric guitar. Although eventually I got an electric guitar too. That was really fun. (laughter) 00:20:51.000 --> 00:21:05.000 That's so fascinating. So, your parents were obviously supporting your music. Did you learn, did you mention— sorry, I forget a little bit. They played klezmer music as well? 00:21:05.000 --> 00:23:02.000 So my parents were not musicians. My dad was a graphic designer. My mom was a teacher. And my mom also was just phenomenally talented. She made, she knitted, she sewed clothes, she made stained glass and these really unique collage pins with decoupage (crafting with glued cutouts in combination with paint or gold leaf). So, she was very creative. And my dad, of course, was a graphic designer, visual artist. And he also painted wonderful paintings. I have so many of them up in my home. My grandfather is the one who was also a professional musician, and he played classical music, but he also played jazz. He actually played with Duke Ellington (pianist, bandleader, and composer who is considered a pioneer of jazz) and Stan Kenton (Stanley ; jazz pianist and composer) with a guy named Paul Whiteman (bandleader, composer, and violinist recognized by Ellington as the King of Jazz). These are— back in the forties and fifties, there were the big bands would travel from city to city. And they actually had a whole string section with them. I mean, a string section that would play with them. But they didn't travel with the string sections. They were hired in each town. So my grandfather was always hired. Yeah, we have pictures of him with Nat King Cole (singer, pianist, and actor who pioneered jazz ensembles and achieved crossover success during the civil rights movement), and other famous folks. And he played with him. And I remember as a kid, you know, he would tell me, “Oh yeah, I'm going off. They're playing with the Duke Ellington” (band) this, or like I said, I saw him perform both on the stage and in the apartment where they lived. And just out, well, basically part of Boston, Chelsea (city across the Mystic River from Boston). So, yeah. 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:10.000 That sounds like an amazing upbringing and experience. Just being immersed in music and the arts, even your parents— 00:23:10.000 --> 00:25:12.000 Oh, it was amazing. And my grandfather who played viola—well, both sets of grandparents lived in what would— could be described as tenements. So, tenements are like apartment buildings where there are a lot of people living. And really lower, lower middle class if that. And you know, when you're a little kid, you don't know about any of this stuff. So I would go to my grandparents' apartment and, in Chelsea, Massachusetts, and it was it was like fairy land because my grandmother would be yelling down the stairs to the downstairs neighbor, “Ida, bring up this, bring up that.” And we'd go off the in the balcony and play in an area that's like a back alley. We'd go in the back of a store that you could get to from the alley. And in the meantime, the apartment really only was a very small one, maybe two bedroom apartment. My grandparents, when I thought about it later, their bedroom was actually what should have been the dining room. But they, there wasn't enough room, right? So, they made their dining room into their bedroom. And, but again, it was such a lively, wonderful place. I mean, I loved it as a little kid. And it didn't occur to me that it was very inner city, very poor. But what a fun place to live. And just all the commotion and the music and the people everywhere. It was like a little kid's dream. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:31.000 Yeah. It sounds like a fairy land. And even though you said it's lower income, just being surrounded by music and the commotion. I want— 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:50.000 Yeah, they even had a— when you came into the apartment, there was a very long corridor. And we used to— we had a plastic bowling set. And my cousins and I, and my brother, we'd always bowl (laughter) in the hallway. 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:54.000 That's funny. And you made your own little bowling alley. That's really cool. 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.000 Yeah. 00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:13.000 What-- (laughter) For me, we just did hopscotch. I never thought to make a bowling alley. That's really fascinating. (Goldberg agrees) Do you have any other memories like that? What else? How else did you— did you convert any of the other rooms into anything else? Indoor aquarium? 00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:28.000 Well, the bathroom there had a— I don't even know if it had a shower, but it had a big clawfoot tub I remember loving as a little kid, taking baths there. That was just so much fun. 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:30.000 I’ve only seen those like in movies. 00:26:30.000 --> 00:27:02.000 I know. And I'm very lucky cause I live— I was able, because of being, I was born in 1959. My parents were all first generation (American citizens). My grandparents were all immigrants. And they, because they were immigrants, they had what I would call kind of old country traditions and way of thinking. 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:04.000 Did they immigrate? Where did they immigrate from? 00:27:04.000 --> 00:28:20.000 Eastern Europe. All of my grandparents escaped before the Holocaust. And my father's family ended up in Chelsea in the Boston area. My mom's family ended up in New Bedford, which is also outside of Boston. And then my family did, just my father's side, part of the family came to Boston, part of the family went to Israel, part of the family went to Brazil. Interesting fun fact, family fun fact, there are musicians in each of the— like my Brazilian cousins, there's an opera singer and opera— you know, there's several musicians. My Israeli cousins I have a cousin named Gila Goldstein, who is absolutely a top-notch pianist. She's president of the (American) Liszt Society (promotes and preserves the legacy of Hungarian composer Franz Liszt). She's just an amazing, amazing pianist. And then, you know, you've got me as the saxophonist. But it's just kind of cool that somehow the genetics of our family on that side we have a lot of musicians. 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:28.000 Yes. Seems the musician is linked to, I'm assuming that's the Jewish side of your family. 00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:30.000 Yeah, yeah. Actually, all sides of my family are Jewish, so— 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:32.000 Okay. I didn't know. 00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.000 There you have it. 00:28:34.000 --> 00:29:06.000 There we go. (laughter) That's so fascinating that music transcends generations and continents. (Goldberg affirms) I wanted to hear more about your upbringing, and were you closely— my upbringing was outside of religion, like Judaism, Christianity, all of it. So, I'm very naive to all of it. Was, is the term secular? Or were you immersed in the traditions (of Judaism)? 00:29:06.000 --> 00:32:36.000 I am, at this point I'm pretty much a secular Jewishly identified human. Growing up— and again, I think this was because when you consider my grandparents were all immigrants escaping Eastern Europe because they were Jewish. My grandmother lived through pogroms (violent attempts to massacre ethnic minorities, particularly Jewish people) in Eastern Europe. My mother's mother. They had, they escaped really terrible things. Jewish identity was something that was really important to my parents, my grandparents. We went to temple, a conservative temple. So Jewish, you have: reform, conservative orthodox, ultra orthodox, and then there's like a whole bunch of stuff in between. We were conservative, which means kind of middle of the road. Early on our family kept kosher (foods conforming to the regulations of kashrut, Jewish dietary law), but then we didn't, many of my cousins still keep kosher. That's a food thing. Dietary laws. And I went to Hebrew school on like two days a week during the week. I went to Friday night services, Saturday morning services, and Sunday school. So I was essentially at the temple five days a week. It was something that was an identity for sure. And I really, I enjoyed Hebrew school. I went all the way through Hebrew high school. And part of that was because in the, in Jewish learning, one of the things that's really central is that a love of learning, and B. that there are multiple ways to interpret things. So I love that. You know, take a portion— there's a book called the Talmud (source of Jewish religious law and theology), which is commentary on what's in the Torah (first five books of the Hebrew Bible). And the Torah is like, you know, how you live by the rules. And so there can be, I don't know, eight or twelve commentaries on the same thing. And, you know, there's just a sense of, “Let's debate, let's discuss.” I kind of wish people did more of that now. And, you know, not about religious things, but just about everyday things. So, my Jewish upbringing really was, I think, foundational in enabling me to see things from multiple perspectives and really embrace that multiple perspectives exist on things. Over the years, my, I guess connection to organized religion has waned. You know, I'm not interested in going to temple at this point, but I really do love the culture. I love the underlying love of learning. You know? That's really part of Judaism. And I feel really proud to be someone of Jewish heritage. 00:32:36.000 --> 00:33:09.000 Yeah, that makes sense. Because you mentioned the underlining love of learning and multiple perspectives, or approaches to that learning. And so with that, it makes sense that multiple people who are Jewish in your family then apply that through music. I want— interested— previously in our conversation and in music, you mentioned coding with music. Right. Right. Right. Right. 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:09.066 Right. 00:33:09.066 --> 00:33:10.000 Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. And I don't know how else to jump to that— 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000 Yeah. 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.000 So I'll just start there— 00:33:14.000 --> 00:35:10.000 So let me, I'll give you a little history on this cause yeah, you can find I've— people know about this story, so I will tell it. So, in 1985 in the world, there was a different world order. There was a Soviet Union, it had not broken up yet. And the United States. In the Soviet Union, there were a lot of people that wanted to leave, they wanted religious freedom, they wanted freedom of intellect, of thought, of culture. And the Soviet government was really coming down on people who wanted something other than what the Soviet, what the Soviet government wanted. So Jewish people were persecuted. Catholic people were persecuted ; Poets, artists, scientists, people who were thinking outside the box. There were some very famous scientists who were jailed. (Andrei) Sakharov (physicist and Novel Peace Prize laureate) is one of them, but— so it was a crazy time. There were a lot of human rights abuses going on. And if people wanted to leave the Soviet Union, specifically Jewish people, they could apply for a visa to leave, to immigrate. But in so doing, they would often lose their jobs, maybe get beaten up or their kids harassed or even put into jail as a disruptor. 00:35:10.000 --> 00:36:41.000 It also was the height of the Cold War. And it turns out, in hindsight it was a crazy time of real spies. Both in the US from Soviet Union, Soviet Union in— US people in the Soviet Union. And it was the heightened tensions of that time were phenomenal. But most people didn't know about the, those governmental heightened tensions. What we did know was one way to get information and to support Jewish people specifically— cause I was working with groups that supported Jewish, what were called Refuseniks, meaning that they had applied to leave and were refused— was to get tourist visas to go into the Soviet Union. Go visit Jewish refuseniks and bring them medicine or information about their field. If someone was an engineer, and now because they applied to leave, they might be an elevator operator. Bringing in like professional information that they couldn't get anymore. And taking out their stories, because there was a feeling at the time, and I think that's true today, is if people in the West (term often referring to nations in Western Europe, Northern America, and Australia) know about human rights abuses and the people, then they have some sort of opportunity to get out. Or for protection. 00:36:41.000 --> 00:37:19.000 Because if no one knows about you, it's easy for them, meaning a government— And I mean, what's going on today in our government is similar and very scary— but you could be disappeared. So having people know about you is really important. There was a reporter from Britain who worked for The Guardian (news)paper, who had gone into Soviet Union and somehow made his way to the state of Georgia. Georgia in the Soviet Union, okay? Not Georgia, here in the United States. 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:20.000 Thank you for the clarity. 00:37:20.000 --> 00:41:09.000 And now it's a country, and found this group of amazing human rights activists. That included Jewish refuseniks, Catholic Refuseniks, dissidents, meaning people who were trying to change the government. Helsinki monitors. The Helsinki Accords were that everyone should be able to leave a country if they were being persecuted. So, there were all these people in Tbilisi, Georgia (capital city) who had gathered together. And the way they were trying to get their word out to the West was by playing music and holding concerts. And they called themselves The Phantom Orchestra. So once a couple of organizations in the West heard about this Phantom Orchestra, they thought, “Okay, let's see if we could find any musicians who would be,” in my words, “crazy enough to go in and meet with them.” Because going in, there was a certain risk that you could get harassed or, hardly anyone ever got arrested, but deported. And the reason to go in to meet them would be to bring them support, you know, just support people to people ; to take their stories out, to find out more about them. There was a group in Boston that was aligned with Amnesty International (an international non-governmental organization that supports human rights), which is a famous group that works on behalf of people who are, have been victims of human rights abuses. And the group in Boston was called Action for Soviet Jewry. So, people who worked on behalf of Jews, Jewish people in the Soviet Union who were refuseniks or had been jailed, this or that. They approached Hankus, who I mentioned earlier, and said, “We'd like to send in a small ensemble of musicians to go meet with these folks. Would you be game?” And Hankus right away was game. And then he thought, “Merryl probably would be really interested”. So he approached me and I thought, “Heck yeah, I'm in.” And then we needed a singer and someone who played like guitar and mandolin. The singer's name is Rosalie Gerut, and the guitarist is Jeff Warschauer. And we all played together in Boston. And long story short, we— the four of us agreed to go in, but it had to be on the sly. We couldn't tell anybody what we were doing because it, you couldn't go in on, especially on a tourist visa and go visit people. It had to be done in secret. Moreso you couldn't go in and have refusenik's names or addresses or phone numbers written down, because if upon arrival they were discovered you'd be deported right away. They would know that you weren't ordinary tourists. And so we were, we got visas, we got tourist visas, and of course we brought in instruments with us so we could play. Which is already a little bit of a, you know, anomaly cause tourists often don't come in with musical instruments, right. But we were a small ensemble and, we said, “Well, we always travel with our instruments cause we always rehearse.” So we had to develop a secret code so we could write down people's information, write down questions we needed to ask, be able to take out stories in code. And so I developed a secret code written in music notes. 00:41:09.000 --> 00:43:12.000 And what was really amazing was we arrived in Moscow (capital and largest city of the Soviet Union, now Russia), and maybe they had gotten some tip off that we were coming and wanted to meet people. Or maybe our instruments gave us away. But right at arrivals in Moscow, we all were searched thoroughly. I mean, just crazy. Opened up everything in our suitcases and went through my music ; page by page by page, but then handed it back. That was score one for our ability to fight the KGB (Committee for State Security of the Soviet Union that succeeded secret police) or be in competition with the KGB. Of course, then we ended up being interrogated. And that part was pretty scary. Ultimately, we made it from Moscow to Tbilisi. And by hook or by crook, we did end up meeting with the Phantom Orchestra and performing with them in an apartment, not in a (concert) hall. And orchestra really wasn't the right word. It was more like a ragtag group of musicians. And they told us their stories and we wrote them and we recoded it back in music so we could take it out with us. And these were stories of how people's lives were upended and how much like sadly what's going on right now in our country. People were taken off the street, locked up, put in jails just because of their activism for wanting to buck the system. And just asked to leave the country or for wanting to monitor human rights. 00:43:12.000 --> 00:45:34.000 So, I will say two things. The people we met were phenomenally courageous human beings. And two, playing music together was how I learned that even under the harshest of circumstances, one can find freedom, freedom in your mind. And that's freedom over anyone who is either jailing you or harassing you. You have that power to be free in your brain. No matter what happens. So, during the course of that trip, we were interrogated, harassed, at one point told we— the KGB told us they couldn't guarantee our safety. We told this to the people we were meeting who gave us advice and said, “Look, it might, you might end up getting arrested,” which ultimately we did. “Keep in mind, you are not the first to be arrested.” You know, “you are part of a whole group of people. Know that. Two, play music even if you're just singing together cause that will give you respite. Three, remember that because you're Americans, it's unlikely they will keep you for a very long time.” You know, “You'll be some kind of bargaining chip for something, but you'll get out.” And ultimately we were put under house arrest. The, probably the, well, by the time we were put under house arrest, we had become emboldened because the people we met were so strong and capable and very laser centered in what they knew they needed and wanted with regard to the rights of humanity. So we started talking back to KGB and we're crazily bold in hindsight. The only time that, well, there were a number of times that were scary. Interrogations were scary. 00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:37.000 I can imagine. 00:45:37.000 --> 00:47:53.000 Yeah. (laughter). Yeah. And at two times they put us, they separated Rosalie and I, put— I mean, separated Rosalie and I from Hankus and Jeff, put us in cars. Rosalie and I were in one car, Jeff and Hankus were in another car. There were KGB car in front of us, KGB car in back of us. We didn't have our passports. They took those away. I don't even think we had our luggage. I know we didn't have our luggage in at least one circumstance. Drove us for hours. At that point, I thought, “Oh God, they really are gonna lock us up, like in a bad prison.” Ultimately they didn't, they put us in a dormitory. But those tactics were meant to scare us. But I do remember having an epiphany at one point, especially in the very long car ride, thinking, “Okay, whatever happens, I can handle this. It's gonna be okay.” So end of story, we were deported. We ended up in Sweden and we ended up back in the United States. We worked with not only Jewish organizations, but with Catholic charities. We worked with our senator, who was Ted Kennedy (lawyer and Massachusetts Senator from 1962 to 2009) at the time. And we also worked on the Hill (Capitol Hill, home to Congress, the Supreme Court, and other federal institutions) in Washington, DC with many members of Congress and many members of the Senate. And ultimately, when (Ronald) Reagan (US President from 1981 to 1989) and (Mikhail) Gorbachev (Soviet Union leader from 1985 to 1991) had their summit, human rights was on the top of Ronald Reagan's list (Reykjavík Summit October 11th and 12th, 1986). And many of the people that we had met were actually named on lists that Reagan brought to Gorbachev. So ultimately, many of the people that we met with were freed and let, able to lead the Soviet Union. Some people disappeared into wherever, and we're not sure what happened to some people. But the people who really wanted to get out ended up being able to get out. So it was a real life changing experience, I can tell you that. 00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:17.000 Yeah. It's amazing to know that you were able to help other people get freed from that kind of persecution. I love what you were saying about freedom in the mind, and you learning that, and you having that epiphany in the car. I'm just curious more— I'm curious to hear more about that concept and your like— 00:48:17.000 --> 00:50:30.000 Yeah, so another like really good example of this, I don't, I didn't know it at the time, but I learned it afterwards. So, during the Civil Rights Movement here in the United States, it was very common when African American activists were being picked up and put in paddy wagons for their outspokenness and for their— look for their fight, for just human rights as people. Often when they were arrested, they would break out in song. And that is so powerful because it's taking power, it's taking space. That song, singing together, is saying, “You might have us, locked up, or you might have us in handcuffs, you might have us in paddy wagons, but we are still strong. And our music gives us that strength. And you can never take that away from us. You can lock us up, you can do whatever you want, but you can't take away: our sense of what is right, our power, and our work to achieve civil rights.” So I think music, music and sports, or chess, many of these things give people not only pleasure and entertainment but give you the tools to under harsh circumstances ; whether they're something that happens with your family that's just unfortunate or something that happens in school, or kids who get bullied. The arts can be that retreat to center yourself and empower yourself and give you confidence to be able to make it through things. 00:50:30.000 --> 00:51:02.000 Right. And it makes sense that then you apply that to your work here with ART=OPPORTUNITY and Center ARTES. Giving people—reassuring freedom in the mind, and your ability to create art is—you can use those tools elsewhere. I love hearing how people can apply creativity in the real world. So how do you help students? How do you remind students of that? 00:51:02.000 --> 00:52:52.000 You know, it's by doing. So all my classes and all of our professional development workshops, whether for students or teachers or administrators or staff, all of them are hands-on, where we give people things to do. So I'll give you a little example. One of my favorite things is— I'll give it not a music example, a drawing example. drawing from the inside out. Let's say you have, I'll give you a shell and I won't tell you where it is. Oh, I can make it a music example too. But I'll give you the shell example. I'll have my students draw a shell, like, but in a fun way, like either upside down or from the middle and draw out. And while they're drawing, I ask them two questions, “One, what do you notice and what do you wonder?” When they're drawing the shell, they notice, “Oh, it has different colors, it has stripes, it has ridges, it has a little hole in it, it's chipped. It's got white on the inside and gray on the outside, or some of it looks iridescent.” And then they're noticing all these things. And then I ask them, “What do you wonder?” Well, “Where did the shell come from? Why does it have colors? Like, how the heck does it— Why does this, shell have these colors and that shell has different colors, and how come they're ridges.” And, “Did something live in this shell? Did something eat the thing that was living in the shell. Was the shell always this size? How did it get to be this size?” So, this little tiny exercise sparks curiosity, and curiosity is the bottom line of learning. 00:52:52.000 --> 00:55:16.000 You know, if you're curious about something— and if kids in schools can become curious and have all these questions, your job as a teacher is to just then guide them to find out all the answers. In music, what I'll do, like I play my saxophone all the time when I do keynotes, and I'll do the same thing. I'll play a tune. It's usually a klezmer tune. I usually play a very simple klezmer tune where if I can get an accompanist on guitar or piano, it has only two chords. Very easy to play. And the piece actually sounds like this. (Goldberg vocalizes tune) Anyways, it keeps— it goes on. And I ask people to, you know, anyone from little kids to senior citizen, “What do you notice?” And then, “What do you wonder when you hear the music?” And what they notice, they notice, “Oh, it has a beat. Oh, I'm music— I'm moving.” They notice a, that it has sounds like maybe something— little kids will always say, “Oh, it sounds like something from Aladdin. Or maybe a snake charmer, or—” they notice so many things. And then when I ask 'em, “What do they wonder?” They're like, “How did you learn to play that tune? Where is it from? Does it have a name? What is it really about?” And in fact, the music has just, again, sparked so much curiosity within that little tiny kernel (central or essential part) of a five minute exercise of, “What do you notice, what do you wonder?” They've hit on, okay: culture, history, geography, how people learn to play. It’s just so, it's so rich. And so, yes, for me, engaging and getting people to understand about the power of the arts and learning is all about by engaging them in some kind of exercise. 00:55:16.000 --> 00:57:39.000 And then one of the really cool things is every exercise is just a kernel. So, if you go back to the shells, you can look at the kids, or teachers, what they notice and what they wonder, what they've written down. Ask them to circle five words and then create a poem out of it, and then create a two person poem out of it, or create a song, or you can always do more. You can always learn more from what has been sparked. Now the importance of that is: creativity is always gonna be the thing that moves us forward, right? So, knowing a lot of facts is good, and knowing history is really good. Cause we need the foundations and we can go to Google or whatever and find things out very quickly these days. Don't even have to look it up. But being creative, being imaginative, being reflective, seeing what other people do and appreciating it, those are the skills that arts can teach us that I find just so phenomenal. And the arts bring us together in ways where we see each other in different lights. If this group makes this poem or acts something out in this way, this group is like, “Oh, wow, I had never thought about that. Or I never knew that kid could act or could sing or, wow.” And so one of the byproducts of the arts is also this opportunity to embrace compassion and empathy. And, oh my God, if there's one thing in this world that we've got to have if we're gonna survive as a civilization, is empathy. And so, I get really worried when I hear some people in government or not government, poo-pooing the notion of empathy or compassion. 00:57:39.000 --> 00:59:27.000 And we've got to, got to place empathy, compassion, mindfulness as central to, in my opinion, to who we are as people and how we learn. And that’s why I really do love the arts. By the way, I also am a boxer. I've been boxing for years, and I love it. It's so much like music. Jab, jab, cross, uppercut, uppercut (motions as demonstration) is very much rhythmic. But one of the things if you watch a boxing match is it's not only like music in terms of the actual rhythm of the punches, but in a boxing match itself it's very much like jazz. It's all improvisation because you have to be so connected with your opponent that you are paying close attention. And if they do one thing, you do another thing. So it's playing off of each other, playing off of each other. And, the actual punching aside, at the end of a boxing match, almost always, you see the boxers embrace each other. That's because it's been such a intimate dance with each other, and they're very appreciative of each other. Before a fight, they're gonna be talking whatever, because that's what their mindset is. But when you're actually engaged in something like that in boxing, it really is a very close—you're so connected to that person that it's not surprising to me to see that at the end of matches, more often than not, folks embracing each other. 00:59:27.000 --> 01:00:22.000 Thank you for explaining that cause I've never been into the boxing, or whatever. So, the comparison of boxing— I've heard the dance (comparison), but like I still didn't understand. I'm—yes, the, but specifically the jab, jab punches, like as rhythmic, that really clicked in my brain. And as you were saying—or I was thinking this earlier, a lot of what I've learned in most of my favorite classes as a student, they've stuck from music that either a guest has come into my class and performed. Or just remembered that in connection to a lesson. Or it's a movie. So, can you talk more about STEAM and how you integrate art with other professions that maybe some people respect a little more, to be blunt? 01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:24.000 Oh, like, give me a profession. 01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:26.000 So— 01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:31.000 Oh, go ahead. Nevermind. I, well no, you give me a profession actually, and then I can tell you. 01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:42.000 Yeah. Cause my, in my brain, it's like, as a history major, I understand I'm not gonna be making as much money as like an engineer, let's say. So, engineering, I guess. 01:00:42.000 --> 01:03:31.000 Engineering. Great. Okay. Indeed, we actually did a little study over at ViaSat (communications company), which is a huge—has a lot of engineers. So, they’re high tech company, very into the internet. And if you've been on an airplane, it's pretty much ViaSat’s, whatever it is. Their systems that run the internet on airplanes. Okay, I had heard that Qualcomm (software and wireless technology company) and Boeing (aircraft manufacturer) and ViaSat were hiring people who had arts backgrounds because they really wanted engineers, especially people that worked there, who could: think outside the box, work well with each other, have the ability to reflect, and also be super disciplined, right? So, they were purposefully hiring people who had arts backgrounds, cause they figured people in the arts, especially in music, or any of the arts, can think outside the box. Musicians have to work well with each other, have to be able to—in a band you can't be just playing the trombone and the trumpet player playing something different. You have to work together in order to make a nice piece of music. So, we did a study and we found out that indeed most of the engineers at ViaSat had arts in their background. And then we went a step further and we asked, “Okay, how did the arts make a difference in what you're doing?” And some of the engineers said, “It helped me think about electrical kind of connections in ways that were out of the box.” So, “My music background gave me the ability to think in different ways and see things from different angles. It helped me work with others, especially people I didn't like. Because in a music band, I had to work with people I didn't like in order to make music, right? Helped me—" And so you can see those are just two examples of that. We actually have more written about that study on the art— It's, I think the Center ARTES (online) site. We have our research studies, or the ART=OPPORTUNITY. If you go into research, we have those studies. But let me give you a couple of other examples. 01:03:31.000 --> 01:04:52.000 Medical students at UCSD right here are required to take visual arts classes because the visual arts, learning how to see closely, helps them understand and how to diagnose things better. It gives them those skills of looking at things more deeply and from different angles. An ophthalmologist I met with just like within the last month, sent me a study where they had a first, like first year ophthalmology students, so people who studied the eyes, and they broke them into two groups. One group of students, about thirty of them, had six lessons in how to look at art. And the other group didn't have the lessons at all. And then they were tested on the things that they could see in the eye, because they're studying to be eye doctors, right? The students who had the art classes outperformed the students that were in the control group. Like crazy. In a significant manner. It shows you studying the arts can absolutely then transfer over to other areas. 01:04:52.000 --> 01:06:57.000 NYPD, New York Police Department, has their recruits watch theater. And one of the theater pieces that they have done is a piece by Janet (Leola Langhart) Cohen (American author and journalist), written as a fictional version of Emmett Till and Anne Frank (titled “Anne and Emmett”). Emmett Till was a young boy who was murdered (during the) Civil Rights era (in 1955), black young man. And Anne Frank was murdered in the—she died in (1945) a concentration camp during the Holocaust. And Janet Cohen wrote this amazing play, which is not depressing it actually is in some ways uplifting, of the two of them having a conversation with each other. And the reason why NYPD in the past has used this play is because they want their recruits to be empathetic to the people that they serve, and they really understand the power of theater as a way to teach about empathy. So that's another example. Also in New York, the public library has this really cool program for new citizens on teaching how to learn history. So this is a really cool thing. They do it all through famous paintings in American history. And what they found is because people are attaching what they're learning to this really cool visual, a famous painting, they remember the history lessons so much better and do so much better on the test, the citizenship tests. Those are just a couple of examples, in real life, how the arts make it a real difference in learning. 01:06:57.000 --> 01:07:24.000 Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Just from a professor who actually implements some of these things here, and obviously beyond as you mentioned earlier, it's— I've always valued the, being immersed in arts and classes, so thank you for for doing that. I feel like it's probably your responsibility that I've gotten some of the classes I've gotten. 01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:24.956 Aw, thanks. 01:07:24.956 --> 01:07:46.000 Yeah, of course. (brief interruption in recording) Okay. So earlier you were mentioning music was how you got people's stories out. I was, I'm particularly want to ask about why was it so important to get people's stories out? Like what about their stories mattered? 01:07:46.000 --> 01:10:59.000 Yeah. So to get the stories out meant that people in the West could then use those stories as a way to highlight the human rights abuses that were going on. And by highlighting it, it was harder for the Soviets then to imprison or to disappear people, because if people in the west knew about you, you would have a much better possibility of actually getting a visa to leave. If people didn't know about you, it would be easy to, say, “Eh,” for the Soviets to do whatever they wanted. I, you know, at the time we're doing this, oral history is at, you know, a crazy point in American history with Trump being the president only for a couple months. And already there's been people who have disappeared or been taken off the street or out of classroom, a classroom. And so what we found, even in our time in history, keeping those people's names and what happened to them front and center means that there's less of a possibility of something horrible happening to them. In the case of a family from New York, it was a mom and three kids, and they were actually taken. I'm not sure if it was from their home or for, from school, but the school principal and the whole town, in this small town in New York, were so upset by this and so distraught. And these were folks who were in the process of having all of their paperwork correct. Had done nothing wrong. Well, the town spoke up in a way that was significant, and as of today, they're back in their homes. And so there is real power in making sure that others, or people in power are held to account. And that people, things don't happen to people without justification. Because when that happens, we really, as a people, are in a terrible, horrible place. Especially for the people who are taken and have done absolutely nothing wrong. So again, you've caught me at this, this moment in history where I see things that happened in the former Soviet Union or perhaps are happening in Russia today, happening here in the United States. It's just unconscionable. So, it makes what we did in my experiences, even more important as a story today. 01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:24.000 Absolutely. Do you think if you had spoken to yourself, as you were developing this code in which we talked about, would you have thought that Merryl would then be sitting in this room, in the state that this country is in? 01:11:24.000 --> 01:13:24.000 No. Never. And I think most people probably feel that way. My guess is even folks who supported Trump, or Republicans or whatever, I don't think anybody expected things to be as cuckoo, crazy, upside down, scary as they are in this particular moment. And I don't think, it makes me really wonder why, especially in the House of Representatives or the Senators, why it's taking so long for people to stand up. Especially when people's rights are jeopardized. We should be better than that. We should know better than that. Bullies should never win. If it takes even, you know, one person to one person or movements to really just crush things that shouldn't happen, then we have to rise up. I really feel that. And I also feel like in moments like this where people might feel so frightened or scared, maybe some people like what's going on, but I doubt it. It's also important not to get so caught up in everything that you can't find moments of joy. And that's where the arts also help us, or getting out of our heads. Or, for me, playing music and going to my boxing classes are moments where I'm not thinking about anything else. And boy, is that a self-resourcing tool. 01:13:24.000 --> 01:13:45.000 Right. Earlier you mentioned art as an escape, but then in the same breath, an escape from maybe awful times, but also in that escape you're learning tools or just learning different, gathering different skills that you can use elsewhere. 01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:47.000 Yeah, for sure. 01:13:47.000 --> 01:14:22.000 Yeah. well thank you again for sharing about music and how it can be applied to activism. I want to now talk about how you—sorry. Where that originates from. Earlier you were mentioning growing up and having activism in your family, or— 01:14:22.000 --> 01:17:23.000 Yeah. So, I think many people of my age who are Jewish, most likely their grandparents immigrated. So they came from very bad situations where they had to escape either the Holocaust or pogroms which were in Czarist Russia (Imperial Russia 1547 to 1917) or other countries where Jewish people were just— like in “Fiddler on the Roof,” come in and just destroy everything or it is just terrible. So when people came here, I think there was a sense of like, never again. And certainly after the Holocaust, “Never forget, never again” (a phrase that encourages people to denounce the Holocaust and other genocides) is something that's very important. But growing up, my parents were very attuned to that, a just society where people have opportunities. And so as a kid, my mom was very active in starting a chapter of the League of Women Voters in Massachusetts, which was, today, League of Women Voters is so important. It gives information to the public on different voting issues, and candidates. It’s a nonpartisan group. As a little kid, my mom would have me parade around our little town just outside of Boston. My dad put a, made a sandwich board and it said, “Follow me to register to vote.” So I remember those things. And then I grew up in the sixties. I was young in the sixties. I was born in 1959. During that time, we had the Vietnam War, and a lot of people were protesting against the Vietnam War. And my family, along with many, many other families in our little community joined up with the Unitarian Church (a sect of Christianity), who was very active in anti-Vietnam protests. And so that was part of my upbringing as well. And through Jewish groups, we also were always learning and figuring out issues of social justice. It was baked into my childhood, there's no question about it. That from a very early age, being someone who is active in society and was doing things to make a difference in a better world was part of, part of who I was. I, there was no escaping it, not that I would want to escape it— (Goldberg laughs) 01:17:23.000 --> 01:17:28.000 Right. Do you think it's ever too late to become— 01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:29.000 Never. 01:17:29.000 --> 01:17:30.000 Engaged? 01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:32.000 Never too late to become engaged. 01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:35.000 How does one start? 01:17:35.000 --> 01:18:08.000 I think by first just understanding that there are multiple sides to any picture. There are— it's really important to understand context and to learn and be curious, and always question things. So, especially now, just cause you see something on the internet doesn't mean it's true. As convincing as it may seem— 01:18:08.000 --> 01:18:09.000 With AI (artificial intelligence). 01:18:09.000 --> 01:18:11.000 And with AI, that— (overlapping dialogue) 01:18:11.000 --> 01:18:12.000 Oh, sorry, you were saying that-- 01:18:12.000 --> 01:20:40.000 Yeah, no, that's really, I mean— my daughter, who's twenty-six, uses AI all the time. And she's discerning. But yeah, you gotta really question things, you know? But it's really important to look at things from multiple lenses and to always keep a lens of fairness, of equity, of background. It's understanding that not everyone has had the same opportunity as other people, and that's no fault of their own. And I think one thing that's really lost in a lot of what's going on right now is again, a lack of caring. It matters that people are losing their jobs. It matters that someone who's doing research in pediatric cancer is able to continue doing that research. The lack of empathy in our society right now, or maybe not our society, but in our leaders, in the people who are in power, is shocking. And it is never too late for people to stand up. It's never too late to keep trying. It's never too late to vote people out. It's never too late to do something small or to do something big. What is a lesson that I've learned is that silence is being complicit. And so, we all have a role in our joint community of human beings to not be silent when we see something. I think the arts have given me more of that power. 01:20:40.000 --> 01:23:48.000 And of course, some of my experiences and my, the context of my background, some of the foundational things I learned as a kid give you, gave me— my mom went on to run for our local what was it, public authority, where you make decisions on like public housing and that kind of stuff. And I helped her campaign, and it was a really hard campaign because people used horrible anti-Semitic language, calling my mom a dirty Jew or this or that. Like out loud, right? And she ultimately lost her election. But then the governor, who was governor Michael Dukakis at the time, there was a opening on that same authority, and he appointed her. And I'll never forget, it's, even in that awful kind of context of what we experience, there was a upside. And there was some justice. But boy, all of that is a learning thing. It's people who are Jewish, people who are Muslim, people who are in minority groups aside from religions have to learn these lessons, sadly over and over. And yeah, it's not easy. On the other hand, there is a lot of power in understanding who you are and the camaraderie of others. In this particular moment, and this is again just saying, this is at this moment in happens with this interview, the weaponization of antisemitism or the cause of the Palestinian people is just horrible. And that's something that is, again, so important for people to understand the nuances. And not to use people against other people. I mean, human beings in Gaza who don't have food are not pawns of governments. They're human beings. People who are coming down on Jewish people, we are not pawns. There's good people, bad people, everything in between everywhere. We have to learn to work together and not to use people for other causes. I don't know. I'm a little bit on my high horse there, so (laughter). 01:23:48.000 --> 01:24:15.000 No, I agree and specifically with your, “We are not pawns.” We're human beings, and understanding humans with stories. So, thank you so much for sharing your story. I hope you're able to use this interview even just to share with your family. I'm sure they'd appreciate hearing all these stories to preserve them. 01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:25.000 Thanks. You know what, to bring it back around, I hadn't really thought about, but you're absolutely right. And what we did with, in the Soviet Union was bring out people's stories. 01:24:25.000 --> 01:24:29.000 Exactly. And just quickly, one last question. 01:24:29.000 --> 01:24:30.000 Yeah. 01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:43.000 The music and the code that you brought back, I'm assuming it was preserved, or their stories preserved, or like how does— because this interview will be preserved with Special Collections, so yeah, just curious. 01:24:43.000 --> 01:27:28.000 Yeah. So a couple of things. My, the code, we kept the code secret for almost thirty years. And it has come to light, and it came to light very serendipitously. I was at a dinner with someone I had never met, guy named Chuck Davis (runs the cybersecurity blog "Between the Hacks") and his wife, they were in cybersecurity. I had no idea about cybersecurity. He's telling me, “Oh, well cybersecurity, we do this, we keep this safe, blah, blah, blah.” And I said, “Well, it, this isn’t cybersecurity, but I've got a story.” And I told him the whole Soviet story, and he was like, “Oh my God.” And he immediately connected with people in cybersecurity. They have this ginormous conference once a year, and it's called RSA (RSA Security LLC, formed in 1982, is a computer and cybersecurity company that was named for co-founders Ron Rivest, Adi Shamir, and Leonard Adleman). And I don't remember what that stands for, but it's a cybersecurity conference. And I ended up being a keynote, and then I ended up becoming friends and doing a little work for the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency for the United States. Because the head of the, it's called CISA, at the time, her name is Jen Easterly, she obviously left when the government changed, she recognized also the power of the arts. And when you look, when you think about cybersecurity, at a very little level, it is, if you can distill it down, it's all about stopping very creative bad guys from doing very bad things. Well, how do you stop or get ahead of bad guys or gals doing bad things? You have to be more creative. You have to work well with each other. You have to think outside the box. And again, the arts give you those skills. That's, I've become very active in that world. But my music and my story has been on display at the NSA, National Security Agency, in (Wahington) DC at a cryptological museum. That's a national museum. It's at— on display in LA (Los Angeles) currently at Wende Museum, which is a Cold War museum. W-E-N-D-E, which is a fabulous museum in LA. And actually, in summer 2026, there'll be a book coming out on my Soviet experience co-authored with Vince Houghton, who is the director of the National Cryptological Museum for the NSA. So, we are co-authoring a book that will be published by HarperCollins (one of the largest English language publishing companies). So, yeah, pretty cool stuff. 01:27:28.000 --> 01:27:34.000 That's super exciting. Is it specifically based on your experience going to Moscow? Or— 01:27:34.000 --> 01:27:36.000 Yep. The whole Phantom Orchestra story. 01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:37.000 Okay. Right. 01:27:37.000 --> 01:27:59.000 And it includes background of what was going on at the time, which was how dangerous it actually was over there, because of the whole real spies. I mean, we were like little tiny spies, but not government seekers, nothing. But the real spies. It was the height of dangerous activity. 01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:12.000 Right. I consider you a spy, or like at least a story smuggler. Or something like that (Goldberg laughs and affirms) Because you were definitely—An espionage artist or something. 01:28:12.000 --> 01:28:14.000 Yeah. 01:28:14.000 --> 01:28:21.000 Yeah. Well, again, thank you so much for sharing your story. Yes, thank you. 01:28:21.000 --> 01:28:22.000 Well, thanks for having me. (overlapping dialogue) 01:28:22.000 --> 01:28:22.068 Of course. 01:28:22.068 --> 01:28:22.908 That was really great. 01:28:22.908 --> 01:28:23.908 Yeah, thanks. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. 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Title
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Goldberg, Merryl. Interview, April 9, 2025
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union.
Identifier
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SC027-078
Subject
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California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES
California State University San Marcos. Music
California State University San Marcos. School of Arts
Klezmer Conservatory Band
Klezmer music
Smuggling -- Soviet Union
Date
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2025-04-09
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Oral Histories
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Suzy Karasik
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Carol Graham
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5.4 Graham, Carol. Interview November 4, 2022 SC027-028 0:57:21 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Master gardeners -- California -- San Diego County ; Gardening -- California -- San Diego County ; Crops -- Diseases and pests -- Biological control ; Organic farming ; University of California (System). Cooperative Extension ; San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station (Calif.) ; San Diego State University ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; North San Diego County Carol Graham Suzy Karasik mp4 GrahamCarol_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-04_access.mp4 1:|19(7)|31(3)|64(8)|98(15)|120(17)|143(6)|160(4)|192(7)|213(5)|238(9)|260(11)|278(6)|297(5)|311(5)|330(12)|351(7)|366(12)|378(16)|390(5)|408(9)|438(13)|468(11)|512(9)|545(9)|557(6)|597(15)|620(5)|661(5)|683(7)|704(6)|717(9)|742(5)|780(10)|797(11)|815(3)|832(12)|867(6)|885(8)|899(7)|931(11)|955(12)|972(13)|998(9)|1017(14)|1037(14)|1065(8)|1083(12)|1105(3)|1119(17)|1143(8)|1171(12)|1189(6)|1231(11)|1265(7)|1300(13)|1333(10)|1364(10)|1423(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/fbbe71e14ed9626f02df6a69bc6e6491.mp4 Other video English 0 Childhood and introduction to gardening Carol Graham recalls her childhood in San Diego, CA. Graham was born in North Claremont and explains that her mother introduced her to gardening. She explains that her mother planted fruit trees in their garden, and her experience gardening with her mother gave her the necessary tools to plant similar fruit trees in her current home in Encinitas, CA. She also briefly discusses her father’s career as Marine, which led their family to moving to Virginia for three years. Encinitas (Calif.) ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego (Calif.) ; U.S. Marines ; Virginia 0 191 College education/ Background in insects Carol Graham discusses her college education at San Diego State University. She earned a Bachelor’s degree in Zoology. She explains that she has always had an interest in animals and insects. She provides scientific background on the lady beetle and the mosquito to the interviewer, and explains the gardening and pest management education she provides to the community as a Master Gardener. She explains that many people are afraid of pests, or believe them to be harmful to plants and crops, and spray them with pesticides or kill them. Graham had also brought a few puppets to the interview, which she uses for a demonstration while discussing insects and pest management to the interviewer. Gardening ; Insects ; Lady beetles ; Master Gardeners ; Mosquitos ; Pest management ; San Diego State University ; Zoology 0 436 Four stages of pest management/ Pesticides Carol Graham describes the four stages of Integrated Pest Management: Identify, Understand, Assess, and Control. She also discusses the topic of pesticides. She explains that pesticides are the most toxic form of pest management, and Master Gardeners encourage others to try other forms of pest management first, such as cultural, physical, and biological approaches. Additionally, she provides other pieces of advice, such as purchasing pesticides that do not harm edible plants and containing the use of pesticides to only one area of a garden to prevent the spread of toxic chemicals. Graham had brought an Integrated Pest Management poster board to the interview, which she uses for the pest management demonstration portion of the interview. Environmentalism ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; Pest management ; Pesticides 0 959 Career at San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One Carol Graham discusses her career at San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One. She began working there a year after earning her Bachelor’s degree from San Diego State University in Zoology. She describes her work in decreasing the amount of shut downs at the onsite Nuclear Generating Station during the winter, which saved the company money. She explains that every eight weeks, the Nuclear Generating Station would shut down in order to heat-treat and chemical treat the water intake system and kill the biophaline. She describes her work of measuring the biophaline and proving that they were growing slower during the wintertime, which resulted in fewer shut downs. She also briefly explains gender equality at the Plant, working alongside her husband, and the equipment utilized in her work. Additionally, she reflects on the topic of nuclear power and explains that she would like to see the country move more into clean energy. Biology ; Biophaline ; Chemical-treating ; Clean energy ; Environmentalism ; Heat-treating ; Nuclear power ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego State University ; San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One ; Zoology 0 1437 Family background Carol Graham discusses her family’s background. She and her late husband moved to Encinitas, CA over forty years ago. She and her husband had one son together. Her son earned a PhD in astrophysics from Johns Hopkins. Graham also explains her family’s genealogy, with her parents having been born in Minnesota and Ohio, but previous generations originally came from Ireland and England. Her father, as a career Marine, was stationed at Camp Pendleton. Her in-laws, additionally, were originally from Missouri and Scotland. Her father-in-law’s work in the aircraft industry brought him to San Diego, CA. Aircraft industry ; Astrophysics ; Baltimore (Md.) ; Camp Pendleton ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; England ; Genealogy ; Germany ; Ireland ; Johns Hopkins University ; Kansas City (Mo.) ; Kirkcaldy (Scotland) ; Minneapolis (MN) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Ohio ; San Diego (Calif.) ; U.S. Marines 0 1654 Involvement with the Master Gardeners Carol Graham describes how she became involved with the Master Gardeners. After San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One shut down, she enrolled in the Master Gardener volunteer program through the University of California Cooperative Extension in 1983. Graham explains that the Master Gardener program is dedicated to distributing information for an environmentally responsible home and garden. Graham also discusses the importance of researching one’s own microclimate. Education in the microclimate of one’s area will aid in the understanding of which plants will be best suited for different microclimates. This will be beneficial to the healthy growth of plants and trees in one’s garden. Environmentalism ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; Microclimate ; University of California Cooperative Extension 0 1978 Accomplishments/ California drought Carol Graham reflects on her accomplishments, including having the opportunity to help many people through the Master Gardeners program and educating the community about growing their own food. She also discusses other topics related to gardening and the environment, such as edible flowers, the California drought, and drought-tolerant plants. Drought ; Drought tolerant plants ; Edible flowers ; Environmentalism ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego County (Calif.) 0 2442 Development of Encinitas, CA/ Catching gophers Carol Graham reflects on how she has seen Encinitas, CA develop over time. She comments that the number of local grocery markets has increased since she and her husband first moved to Encinitas. She also discusses other characteristics of the town and of North County, such as its farmers markets, community gardens, and container gardening. Graham also recounts her relationship with her neighbors in Encinitas, and how she has been labelled as the “gopher getter” because she has caught many gophers in the neighborhood. Community ; Community gardens ; Container gardening ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; Farmers markets ; Gardening ; Gophers ; Neighborhood ; Pest management ; The California Rare Fruit Growers 0 2831 Establishment of the Master Gardeners program Carol Graham elaborates on her work with the Master Gardeners program. She explains that the program is a branch of the University of California Cooperative Extension. Their branch is operated through the County Operations Center in Kearny Mesa, CA. She explains the method and funding behind their research in the program. Graham also explains the origins of the establishment of the program in Washington state by an extension agent who decided to train volunteers gardeners to assist home gardeners with their gardening questions. The program now exists in all fifty states in the U.S. County Operations Center ; Gardening ; Kearny Mesa (Calif.) ; Master Gardeners ; University of California Cooperative Extension ; Volunteer ; Washington 0 2965 Composting Carol Graham discusses composting. She provides recommendations for food items to not include in a compost pile which could create odor or attract animals into one’s garden. She also discusses vermicompost, which is a form of composting that relies on earthworms, and explains how to create a successful vermicompost. Graham also dispels common misconceptions about earthworms. Finally, she discusses local companies and organizations that aid the community in environmental matters, such as Miramar and Carlsbad’s desalinization plants, and the Solana Center for Environmental Innovation, which provides started compost kits to the community. Carlsbad (Calif.) ; Compost kits ; Composting ; Desalinization plants ; Earthworms ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; Environmentalism ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; San Diego (Calif.) ; The Carlsbad Desalinization Plant ; The Solana Center for Environmental Innovation ; Vermicompost 0 Oral history Carol Graham is a Master Garderner. She has a Bachelor's degree in Zoology and began her career working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One. After its closure, she enrolled to become a Master Gardner volunteer that was sponsered through the University of California Cooperative Extension program. The Master Gardner program is dedicated to distributing information for an environmentally-responsible home and garden. She has been a Master Gardner since 1983 and participates in various events such as EcoFest. She is very passionate about the study of insects, pest management, composting, and protecting the environment from pesticides. April 26, 2023 Transcript Suzy Karasik: Good morning. My name is Suzy Karasik. Today is November 4th and I am interviewing Carol Graham, Master Gardener, native Californian, and so much that we will learn here in part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Carol, thank you for joining me today. (coughs) Carol Graham: (nods) My pleasure. Karasik: And, um, I wanted to just say briefly how I met Carol. I’m part of the EcoFest that we had here in Encinitas a couple of weeks ago. It’s an annual event that we do to educate people to everything involved with the ecology and the environment here in the county. And Carol had an incredible display (Carol gestures with her arms to display the posterboards on a table behind her) with the Master Gardeners, which we’ve been able to set up here and hopefully make it a little bit more readable. (Carol holds up a model of a fly, with a paper flyer attached and hanging below it) And Carol, let’s just start here. As we had discussed, let’s talk a little bit about where you born and your childhood and if any of that happened to prepare you for what was to come in your most interesting life and, um, how you’ve identified yourself over the years and your relationship with the county. So, you can start there. Graham: Well, I was born in North Claremont, the city of San Diego. And my mother was a very avid fruit tree gardener. And I really benefited because when my husband and I moved up here to Encinitas over forty years ago, it’s a similar microclimate to the one I grew up in, which means the fruit trees that I enjoyed--gardening at my mother’s knees, and fell in love with certain varieties of nectarines and other delicious fruits, loquats--I could grow those same varieties here which was nice. Karasik: Yes. Graham: And it was a very pleasant community to grow up in. Karasik: If I may ask, if you don’t mind, what year were you born, or-- Graham: Oh. (chuckles) 1952. Karasik: Okay. Graham: Yes. So, I just recently celebrated--not that many months ago--my 70th birthday. Karasik: Yes! So, tell us a little bit about your school and what it was like here in the North County--well, you were actually down in San Diego-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --as you were growing up. Graham: I went to elementary school and junior high in the city of San Diego. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, my father was a career Marine. So, we had three years in Virginia, and I graduated from high school in Virginia. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And then we came back to San Diego because the house had been rented--not sold. So, we were able to come back to the same garden, the same microclimate, which was great for the garden-- Karasik: Yes. Graham: --the same fruit trees waiting for us-- Karasik: Yes. Graham: --the ones that we had planted earlier. So, it was a very pleasant experience, very supportive of the interests that I continue to enjoy today. Karasik: So–so you graduated from high school in–in–out east, and-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --then you came back out here. What were your–What was your initial work, and-- Graham: Well, I went to S.D.S.U. and earned a bachelor’s degree in Zoology-- Karasik: Mmm. Graham: --because animals have always fascinated me, and that’s not just the animals many people first think of are the gigantic giraffe and interesting hippopotamus, and rhinoceros. But I’m also fascinated by what some people will refer to as the–the bugs (holds up a stuffed toy puppet ladybug, and chuckles). So, um-- Karasik: Let’s talk about the bugs a little bit. Graham: Yeah. Well, I am very pleased to educate people on--well, most people recognize this as one of their favorite bugs in the whole garden, the lady beetle. (has now put on the puppet on her right hand and is holding it up in front of her) People call it the ladybug, but it’s more scientific to call it the lady beetle. Because actually the word “bug” has a derogatory reference. It comes from old English, meaning something unpleasant (makes a face, and gestures with her left hand to indicate something scattering away). So, lady beetle is the more appropriate, better name. And it’s interesting in that its larval stage looks creepy! (holds up another stuffed animal, which appears to be a larval stage representation of the lady beetle). So-- Karasik: I did not know that! Graham: --the larval stage, as I tell people, “Yes, it looks like a creepy, six-legged, micro alligator.” So, it’s very important that we reach out to the public, as Master Gardeners, and inform people “when you see this in the garden, don’t assume it’s something bad.” (she shakes the larval-stage, stuffed animal) For instance, (turns to her right and looks at the posterboard behind her, first to one with the header “IPM” then points to the board with the header “Identify”) one of the first steps of Integrated Pest Manager—which is what I.P.M. stands for—is identify friend or foe. Because if you assume this is bad (holds up the larval stage stuffed toy) and as many people have told me as they come by our Master Gardener exhibit, they had no idea it was a lady beetle larva. They thought it was something bad ‘cuz it looks creepy! You know what they had told me they had done? They sprayed it with pesticide, or they squished it, or they taught their kids to be afraid of it, which was so sad. Especially since this (shakes the larval stage toy) can not do any good if you squish it! (laughs) Um, but I admit, yes, it looks creepy. And we also educate people that not all lady beetles look like this. (Shakes her right hand which has the mature lady beetle puppet on it) Not all of them are red. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: So, we have an assortment of photos that show different colors for the different species ‘cuz it–it’s great to benefit not from just one species of lady beetle (again shakes her puppeted right hand) but several. (Turns to put both of those stuffed toys down on the bench next to her, then holds up a stuffed toy that looks like a mosquito, which has a paper flyer hanging off of it.). And on the dark side, we also need to educate people about this character. Karasik: Ugh. Graham: Now, a Master Gardener friend of mine made both this educational model (again holds up the larval stage toy) and this (holds up mosquito toy). And she made them too pretty, in a way, because this looks, actually, quite attractive. And it is the creepy mosquito! And I think we’ve all been bitten by mosquitoes. And some people don’t realize but the mosquito actually has been given the horrific title of the most deadly animal we share the planet with, because the part it plays vectoring malaria, dengue, yellow fever. Even West Nile virus killed some of our residents here in San Diego County. It was about fifteen, seventeen years ago. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, it’s true that apparently everyone who died of West Nile virus in our county had pre-existing medical conditions or they would have survived. But it’s also true some of those people could be alive today if they hadn’t been bitten by infected mosquitoes. But unfortunately, 3the mosquito larvae are not easily identifiable for people who haven’t been introduced to them. And many of our neighbors are growing mosquito larvae in their bird baths and other water-containing items, children’s toys, and buckets in the garden. Stagnant water is where the mother mosquito likes to lay her eggs. In a few days, those eggs hatch out to larvae. And when I have displayed larvae—‘cuz sometimes I’ll deliberately grow them to have them on exhibit, and I take the lid off the jar only after I make sure they’re just in the larval stage. No adults to fly out and bite people. And I will ask people as they come to the exhibit, “Do you know what this is?” and over half the adults have no idea it’s mosquito larvae, which is very disturbing, because they’re growing them possibly in their gardens. And when they see them, they’re not motivated to dump it out, ‘cuz they don’t know what it is. Karasik: This is so important, and so, uh, (Graham puts down the mosquito toy) so–so much of it is actually unknown to the public. I’m curious, if you wanted to just kind of go through these four stages, if you will. (Carol stands up and turns toward posterboards) And then we’ll talk more about how you even became to be a Master Gardener. But I don’t want to— Graham: Okay. Karasik: --uh, (Carol sits back down again) forget to look at a little bit more of your early days-- Granham: Okay. Karasik: --so we’ll come back. Graham: (she turns toward the board that reads “IPM.”) Well, the first stage in Integrated Pest Management, as I said, is Identify--(points to the posterboard reading “Identify”) friends, and admittedly some of these friends do look creepy--(points to photographs under the subheading “Friends” on that posterboard) Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --and foes. (points to, and circles with her right-hand finger, various photographs under the subheading “Foes”). And here, kind of the star of the show, (circles the middle of the board, which has a collage of photos) indeed, we recognize the adult lady beetle (points to the photo of the lady beetle). I hardly ever see the eggs (points to a photo of lady beetle eggs) and I have my head in the garden a lot, so I’m surprised I don’t see them more often. But, at certain times of the year, I’ll see the larval stage, (points to a photo of a larval lady beetle) and as I said, I’ll admit it looks creepy like a six-legged micro alligator. And the pupal stage (points to a photo of a pupa of a lady beetle). And if, ideally, people would get this in high school or junior high school biology, it would be so helpful for the public health of our communities. And then of course you move on (stands up and points to the posterboard with the subheading “Understand”) to understand relationships, like the sooty mold, which is this black powdery (points to a photo of leaves with black mold on it) material you frequently find on some infected leaves (reads the text above the photos, indicating it with her left hand)—“grows on the honeydew, produced by sucking insects.” So, unfortunately, it’s not uncommon to have aphids or mealybugs or whiteflies or scale. And what goes in one end to their body as food—‘cuz they puncture the tender leaves and they’re sucking the sap—comes out the other end of their body, and instead of calling it like “aphid poop” it's called “honeydew.” Karasik: (chuckles) Graham: And this honeydew is a rich source of food for the growth, unfortunately, of ants which will protect these bad guys and sooty mold to grow. And here (points to a photo of ants) we see the ants will actually chase away the good guys who would eat some of these bad guys. But the ants are kind of protecting the bad guys because they’re eating-- Karasik: That’s their sustenance. Graham: --the honeydew. Yeah. It’s kind of like we-- Karasik: Yeah. Graham: --protect our dairy cattle from predators who might eat them, because we want to milk them and benefit from them. Karasik: Right, right. Graham: (then points to the text toward the bottom with her left hand) And understanding leads to multiple control approaches--biological, cultural, chemical, physical. There’s quite a diversity there. (She then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Assess,” points to the text with her left hand, and reads) And assess. Butterflies and moths are pollinators. Butterfly and moth larvae are consumers. Well, some bugs, I say they’re like children. They don’t always behave. They do some good and some bad (chuckles). And you have to kind of evaluate how it interacts in your garden. (points directly to the camera and whispers “The screen went dark. Is that a problem? Appears to wait for answer, and then says “okay,” and continues) You have to assess how they interact (using her left hand, she circles above a diagram showing the cycle of interaction of insects) in your garden, whether the bit of bad they do is less than the good they do. So, you can label them a good or a bad. Um, and of course, the green fruit beetle (points to the bottom of the board, to a photo of a beetle). Well, some people label it a pest, because it will attack, damage overripe soft fruits--peach, nectarines, plums, apricot--'cuz it’s drawn to the fragrance. But, the grub, which admittedly looks creepy, is a fantastic decomposer. And it’s in all our compost piles, helping break things down. And it has a strict diet of eating rotting organic matter only. Although, it does look similar to the June Beetle grubs which eat live plant roots and tubers and corms. So, I try and teach people how to tell the difference-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: (then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Control” and points to a pyramid illustration) --and then the control aspects, from cultural which is considered benign approach ; mechanical and physical--I mean, just physically pulling (with her left hand, mimics pulling off the insects from the photos on the “Assess” posterboard) the snails off your plants ; biological--reloos–reducing–releasing--excuse me--lady beetles, or recognizing the lady beetle larvae that you do have so you don’t accidentally spray it with pesticide ; to chemical (points to the top of the pyramid on “Control” posterboard). And all these different approaches are out there (waves her left hand above the pyramid) and they should be assessed and see how they fit into your garden. So, I think that (waves her left hand in front of all four posterboards, indicating totality) kind of reviews them all. Karasik: Pretty much covers that. Before we go back to your childhood, I’m going to pause here just for a minute (Graham sits back down and nods) Karasik: Okay, Carol. I think probably one of the most important aspects of this beautiful background that you chose to bring is the chemical aspect of the pest management. (Carol points to the pyramid on the “Control” posterboard) So, let’s talk a little bit about that and the toxicity because I’m thinking that our descendants that may be watching this oral history in the years to come will know a whole lot–a lot more about what would have been a more wise pest management than we do now. Graham: (again pointing at the posterboard) Well, the chemical aspect is considered the most toxic, and we want you to try the cultural, physical, and biological approaches first. And under the chemical (reads the text on the posterboard, which I’ve designated in quotations) “Use only in combination with the other controls.” It’s not like you have to use only these or only the chemical. You can use them together. And hopefully you won’t even have to go to the chemicals. Hopefully, you can control it by the other approaches. “Use a pest–pest specific non-broad-spectrum pesticide.” In other words, if you do feel you have to use a chemical pesticide, don’t spray the whole garden, and make sure that before you buy any pesticide you carefully read the container and that it mentions the specific pest you’re trying to address, ‘cuz there are pesticides out there that would be totally wasted if you bought this pesticide and it didn’t apply to this pest that you were trying to control. Karasik: Right. Graham: And yet you introduce something toxic into the environment unnecessarily--very undesirable, of course. “Select the least toxic pesticide to reduce potential risks. Always read and follow directions on the pesticide label. It’s the law.” And as I tell people, well, the first thing you read before you buy any pesticide is will it address your target, you also want to make sure is it okay to put on the plant you want to put it on, ‘cuz many of us are growing edibles, and some of the pesticides like insecticidal soap are okay to put on edibles--fruits and vegetables--and will mention that on the paper. Whereas there are other pesticides that you definitely wouldn’t want to put on your edibles, ‘cuz they can get soaked into the plant, and you wouldn’t want to be eating them when you’re eating the produce from that plant. Karasik: Right. I–I was curious if you feel that very many people are actually aware, for example, of the dangers of glyphosate and how that has pretty much penetrated the entire planet. And I’m wondering in the future, um, you know, what will–what will become of that. Do you try to educate specifically on that or does that bother you that it’s still sold and advertised and is just so deadly? Graham: Well, mostly, we’re not targeting any one pesticide. We want people to open their minds to p–basically trying chemical, physical, and biological approaches before they’d even consider the pesticide. So, we spend most of our time--if we can teach them about biological control, physical control, or cultural control, hopefully they’ll never even have to get to the point where they’re considering a chemical pesticide. Karasik: Right. Right. And when you–you go into schools and tell me a little bit about who–who all is your audience. Obviously, festivals like we had-- Graham: Oh, the Encinitas EcoFest was very nice-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --attended. And, of course, we do have many Master Gardeners helping in school gardens. And of course, when you’re talking to the students and their supervisors--the teachers, the staff, chaperones, and parents--about how to properly grow this product that they’re going to pick from the garden and eat, you definitely want to mention that “okay, we’re not going to put this pesticide on here because we don’t have any pests on this. Isn’t it great?” That kind of thing. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Or “oh, we do have pests. We have snails, sliming up the trunk of our citrus tree.” But instead of using a pesticide, we can teach them, of course, much simpler approach, just pick it off. Karasik: How–huh–who knew! Graham: Or we can use a copper band, because snails don’t actually like to slime over copper. It tastes bad for them. So, if we teach them that, we are hopefully enlightening them so when they actually grow to adulthood and have their own yards and their own gardens, they will not first grab the chemical control approach. Karasik: Oh, uh, that’s really great. Well, let’s talk a little bit about, I think maybe, how your life tha–developed, how you met your husband. Graham: Okay. Karasik: And, um, let’s–let’s hear about that. Graham: Well, I was attending San Diego State University, working on my Bachelor of Science in Zoology degree, and my husband, actually, had graduated from there and he was the teaching aide for the lab class in one of the biology classes. So, that’s how I met him, which is interesting. He was in marine biology which was kind of far away from my backyard biology, but still a biologist. And within a year of completing my degree, we were both working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One, in that the Nuclear Generating Station would shut down, I believe it was like every eight weeks, and they would heat-treat and chemical-treat the water intake system, because they had a large pipe--I think it was, like, twelve-foot diameter or something--and it was sucking in ocean water which was cooling some of the rest of the system at the nuclear power plant. But you’re sucking in water from the ocean, so you’re sucking in barnacles and polychaetas and other biophaline. They settle on the pipe and they grow. And this of course not only reduces the diameter of the water intake flow, but also when you’re treating, you might end up with some of these clogs of biophaline getting sucked in and causing problems. So, every, I think it was eight weeks, but don’t quote me on that, I think they were shutting the plant down to chemically treat and heat treat to kill the biophaline so it didn’t keep growing. Unfortunately, every time they shut the plant down, I believe I was told it was $10,000 more an hour for the energy company to buy energy to supply us than it was making the energy at San Onofre. And people really didn’t relate to this because they’d flip the lights on and the switch would come on because the power company was being responsible and making sure the power was there, even though it was costing more. But people were, of course, ending up having to pay a bit more, because it was more expensive when it was shut down. Now, as a biologist, it seemed pretty obvious that in the cold of the winter, the biophaline wasn’t growing as fast. And why were we shutting down the power plant every eight weeks, year-round, regardless of the time of the year. So, on site, I like to joke, I was basically locked into this research trailer, and I was measuring the biophaline on these research plates, so identifying which quadrat on which plate, and what was the diameter of that barnacle, and this polychaete, and that barnacle. And we measured them, for a year, and we were able to show people the hard scientific evidence that things were growing slower in the cold winter waters. And they didn’t have to shut the plant down as often. So, in the end, after we generated–processed all the data, etc., indeed they considered this quite a successful study. So, they weren’t shutting the plant down every week–eight weeks in the winter, because they realized things weren’t growing as fast, as far as the biophaline. So, everybody in the long run saved money, even the cost of the research, which seemed quite expensive at the time although now that the quanti–the money for that research project doesn’t seem quite as expensive as it was decades ago. But they more than saved, because of the change they could do in running the plant. Karasik: I’m curious, too, because you didn’t have computers back then. Or did you have s-- Graham: It was much slower. Karasik: Yeah. You did have some large, like, big equipment that did do some processing. Graham: I’ve talked about after the year of being locked into the research trailer on site of San Onofre, I was locked for a year (chuckles) into the office to transfer the data. Whereas, if we’d had more sophisticated computers back then, it would have been much faster. Karasik: Right. Now, where was your husband working at the–at San Onofre. Graham: Well, he was the lead investigator, so we were locked into the same trailer. Karasik: Oh, that was nice! (chuckles) Graham: Yes. Karasik: I’m curi-- Graham: There were three of us in the trailer. Karasik: Right. I’m curious, too, because I think it’s important from a–a women’s perspective. Did you feel any sense of a gender discrimination, or were women respected? Graham: No. I was given full respect. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, because it didn’t matter what my gender was. I was still going to be locked into that research trailer. ‘Cuz it’s–it was San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station. So, basically, you went to the main entrance. You were evaluated, basically. They also threw the dice and every three or four or six people would be body-searched, (chuckles) physically patted down-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --going in. And this was before we really thought of terrorist activities much. And then we had to walk directly to the research trailer. And even at lunch we didn’t leave the research trailer. We would bring our lunches in and stay in that trailer until the end of the day, research day. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And we walked right out. But I never felt-- Karasik: And was your pay equal? Graham: Yes. Mm-hmm. Karasik: Oh, that’s--I’m really happy to hear that. Graham: I mean, not necessarily equal to my husband, because he was the lead investigator. Karasik: Correct. Graham: But equal to the other party, who happened to be a guy, in the research trailer doing the same work I was doing. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Well, I’m glad to hear that. And it must have also really been nice to work with your husband and be able to share your knowledge and excitement about the job. That must have been–been really great. Graham: Well, he was a marine biologist, so he was quite into it. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, I wasn’t as into the organisms, because I was more terrestrial biologist, of course. Karasik: Right. Graham: Backyard gardening, etc. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: But I did appreciate the fact that this was a–basically a clean form of energy, compared to burning coal. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And, um-- Karasik: And how do you feel about that now? Not that we have to go into a huge nuclear discussion. Graham: Well, now it’s shut down. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And of course, the–the complication is dealing with the remnants, the radioactive remnants. Karasik: Yes. Graham: And I’d like to see the country go more and more into clean energy--but nuclear was considered clean-- Karasik: Right. Graham: --and weed ourself away from the energy sources that are not considered good for the environment. Karasik: You know, that reminds me. At the EcoFest, there was another booth that passed out quite a bit of information about the San Onofre situation and what we need to know as far as how close some of those storage tanks are to water sources and other things like that. Do you--is that a concern for you at all? Or do you think the public is aware of that? Graham: I think they’re doing a good job dealing with that. I would eventually like to see that material moved. For decades now, they’ve talked about moving it to a--I’ve forgotten the exact location. Karasik: There’s a place in Nevada, I know. Graham: Yeah. I don’t know exactly where in Nevada, but-- Karasik: And then, of course, there’s the NIMBY--Not In My Backyard. Graham: Yes. Karasik: And then the people in Nevada were like “Well, you know, we don’t want it here.” So, I think this is an interesting discussion that in decades to come when people come back and look at this and will see what–what’s been done that’s much more safe, and–and won’t that–won’t that be great, hopefully. Graham: But, I’m sure glad we weren’t burning more-- Karasik: Yes. Graham: --coal at the time to generate that energy-- Karasik: Exactly. Graham: --when we were using. Karasik: And that–and that’s still an issue. So, then, tell me a little bit about either how San Onofre ended. You had a–a–I know you have one son that you had mentioned to me. So, tell me a little bit about your family and tell me about your–your parents and your husband’s parents, and where they came from and, you know, how your lives developed here in North County. Graham: Oh. Well, my husband and I moved to Encinitas over forty years ago. And, because it was relatively close to where the Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility was, where I was staying in the office for a year and processing the data from San Onofre. And my parents still lived in San Diego and my in-laws also lived in San Diego. So, it was smart to live on the Encinitas, south of where we went to work, because that was closer to go and visit them, which we frequently did. And my son—the family joke is “What does the only child of two biologists go into study-wise and stay in science, but get as far away philosophically and geographically from any of the biological studies as possible?” Astrophysics! (chuckles) So he got his–actually, his PhD finally. He started with his bachelor’s at Berkeley, and then wan–went to on get his Ph.D. at a–a--what is that, in Maryland, the institution-- Karasik: In Annapolis, or?-- Graham: People think first of the medical aspect. Karasik: Right. Mm, we’ll come back to that. Graham: He’s going to criticize me for not remembering where he got his PhD. Karasik: Mmm. Graham: Anyway. And he had some research in astrophysics. Karasik: Not John Hopkins? [sic] Graham: John Hopkins, [sic] yes. I’m sorry. Karasik: Johns Hopkins. Okay, great. Graham: I’m going to have to apologize for a minute, not remembering, John Hopkins. [sic] Karasik: That’s alright. Yeah. Graham: He got his PhD at John Hopkins. [sic] Yes. Karasik: Yes. Prestigious. Yes. Graham: Yes. Karasik: So, you had just the one son? Graham: Just the one son. Karasik: Okay. So, tell me a little bit about where your parents came from, um, you know, what generation you are. Did they come directly to California? Do you know? ‘Cuz a lot of us don’t really know where our ancestors came from, other than immediate. How much do you know about both yours and your husband’s? Graham: Okay, my mother was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota. My father was born in Ohio. Now, I believe, possibly, the previous generation had come from Ireland and England and Germany. My in-laws, my mother-in-law was born in, I think, Kansas City, Missouri, which is, you know, Kansas City but it’s in Missouri, but I guess it’s a city that’s-- Karasik: They’re sister cities on the border. Graham: Yes. Right across the river from each other. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And my father-in-law was born in Kirkcaldy, Scotland. Karasik: Mmm! So he immigrated here and-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --with his wife? Do you know? Graham: No. Karasik: Or did he meet her here? Graham: He married her here. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Yes. Karasik: And then I guess they all decided to come out to California? Do you know anything about that journey? Graham: Um, my father-in-law was working, I believe, in the aircraft industry, which was quite active at one time in San Diego. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Manufacturing. And my father was a career Marine, and was stationed out here at Camp Pendleton and-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --some other facilities in southern California. Karasik: There’s a lot of history from Camp Pendleton that will be in our Oral History. Graham: Oh! Good. Karasik: Yeah. So, I guess probably, let’s switch then a little bit. When we look at your life’s work, uh, did–did you want to say more about after you didn’t work for San Onofre anymore, did you get more involved tha--How did you get involved with the Master Gardeners? Let’s go there. Graham: Oh, well, um, we had my son. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And my neighbors warned me that, “If you’re looking for infant childcare, you can’t depend on the local teenagers, if you want to do a routine.” And I wanted to apply to Master Gardeners, which was going to be, I think, seventeen consecutive Tuesdays, and you were expected to attend every one, ideally. And I was wondering, “Okay.” So I asked my mother, “I would like to go through this Master Gardener program which is put on through the University of California Cooperative Extension and become a Master Gardener volunteer, which is dedicated to disseminating information for a successful and environmentally responsible home gardening. But your infant grandson would need care every Tuesday for like seventeen consecutive Tuesdays.” And she said yes. So, I’m very beholden to my mother because-- Karasik: Thank you, mother! Graham: Yes. Karasik: Yes. Graham: Because otherwise I’m not sure where I could have dropped him off for just-- Karasik: Right. And what year would that have been? Graham: He was born in 1982. Karasik: Mmm, so you had-- Graham: Then it was in 1983 that I started the Master Gardener program. Karasik: Oh. Wonderful. Graham: He was just a year old. Karasik: Okay. So, how would you say that work has changed over the years for you, and just tell me more about--I–I–I think, in these interviews we want genera–future generations that come back and watch this and want to learn about the community and how the peoples lives were affected (Carol points to something off camera), what you’d--(Carol looks again off camera and starts to chuckle) what you would want them to know. Graham: Well, Encinitas is a great community to live in. The microclimate is fantastic for people who like to grow a diversity of fruit. Although before you grow any fruit trees, no matter where you’re living, always check that the microclimate is adapted. I frequently, at the Master Gardener exhibit, drag out the Sunset Western Garden book and ask people, “Do you have this?” And if you don’t, you can check it out at any good library and tell them that this book divides the western portion of the United States into twenty-four different micro zones. And I open the map and we can usually identify where they’re living, and at least before they go away, I can tell them, “Oh, you open up Sunset Garden book, and you want to look at what apple varieties grow in your microclimate, look for this number on the microclimate.” Because, unfortunately, as a Master Gardener I’ve had people tell me they have purchased certain fruit trees, certain varieties, and I ask, “Oh, where are you gardening?” And I have to tell them, “That variety is not adapted to your microclimate. It’s not going to thrive.” And I even had a personal situation. Years ago, there was a new variety of--I’ve forgotten whether it was, um, a peach or a nectarine--and it came out--it was supposed to be okay for zone 24, close to the coast in southern California. And the next year, after I’d bought it that year, the next year they said “Sorry. We made a mistake. It’s further inland that it’s adapted to.” So, I dug up the tree, had a fellow Master Gardener who lived further inland and said “Would you like this tree? Because I bought this under the belief that it was going to thrive, and now they’ve changed what they’ve recommended.” Karasik: Right. Graham: So, it is critical to do your research first to be successful in gardening. And we don’t want you wasting water, putting water on varieties of plants that are not adapted to your microclimate, whether it’s fruit trees or just ornamentals. Karasik: That is so important. So-- Graham: Especially with water being super critical now. Karasik: Absolutely, which will be another interesting aspect to look at when future generations, uh—what that’s going to be like. Do you--So, was your husband involved in the Master Gardeners too? Or then did you--you didn’t work, uh, when you had your son. Graham: Right. Karasik: And then what–what did he do? (Carol looks puzzled at the question) What was his work? Did he st-- Graham: My–my husband’s work? Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Well, he continued to work for the Lockheed Marine Biological Research. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, now he wasn’t involved directly in Master Gardeners, but I must say that, uh, there were frequently times when I would have a long day at a Master Gardener exhibit, um, like you experienced at the Encinitas EcoFest recently, and I’d be driving home and very often he had the garage door open for me, ‘cuz I had told him when I went off, I hoped to be back in this time period, and the garage door was opened. I could drive right in. And he was a great cook, so it was wonderful because there was dinner waiting for me all ready and he really spoiled me. (chuckles) So-- Karasik: That’s so wonderful. Graham: --not directly in Master Gardeners but he did support me to a high degree in Master Gardener. Karasik: Yeah. Behind ever--huh--there’s a saying: “Behind every great man is an exhausted woman.” (both she and Carol chuckle) Graham: Right. Karasik: And so I think we could probably-- Graham: (nodding her head) Yes. Karasik: --turn that around. Um, what would you say some–are some of your greatest accompish–accomplishments in your life? Graham: Well, reaching out to so many people at Master Gardeners has made me really feel good in that, as I say, I want people, ideally, to have at least a little bit of a–an edible garden. So when their kids come around and the kids have the opportunity as young gardeners to pick that lovely tomato or bell pepper (gestures as if picking something with her right hand) or maybe it’s a fruit--a peach or nectarine--and eat it and say, “Mmm, really good,” that they directly understand where their food comes from. Karasik: (whispers) Yes. Graham: Because, while some of our food comes from the ocean and the rivers and the lakes, so much of it comes from the good earth. And children who grow up picking the stuff from their garden, I think, are going to realize that and makes a connection and be far less apt to pollute or litter. ‘Cuz they understand why would you want to put pollution or litter on the ground. That’s where your food comes from! Karasik: Exactly. Do you feel like you’ve been successful in educating hopefully thousands of people, because there is a lot of concern now about our food sources? And I myself just recently got a tower garden because I want to be able to grow my own food and it seems like we might be moving more to that. Um, you know, I don’t know if we want to get into it, but we may just want to mention because of the--being a–a–an oral history, you know, monocropping and how all the large corporations have taken over the farming. And so is this--Do you feel like you’ve had a little place in there where you’ve been able to-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --educate. Graham: And also sharing with people the experience. Well, there are some peaches and nectarines I’ve enjoyed purchasing in the market, but none of them have the fantastic flavor that my mother and I used to grow and the Panamint nectarine--that’s the one we really adore. And some people love the Babcock peach, but that’s sweet-on-sweet. And my personal taste buds like the sweet with tang, which the Panamint lives up to. So, you can customize better your favorites by growing them. And of course, the macadamia! Well, the macadamia nut--what is that—$12.99 to $19.99 a pound for the nuts in the market when you buy them. Well, you can grow them yourself. They’re easy to grow, although heads up! (points her left pointer finger into the air). I want to alert everybody. They are really a lot of work to crack, even if you buy the specific macadamia cracker which I bought. But so I try to educate people as to this and-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: ‘Cuz the macadamia tree was my husband’s, um--I don’t know if it was his birthday, or his Christmas present the first year after we moved in. He wanted a macadamia. Karasik: Nice. Well, I’m definitely going to be coming to you, because even me being over in the far east side of North County, that is going to be different. And I’m very excited to learn more about what you think would be best for me to plant, primarily just for me to consume. Graham: Mm-hmm. Good. Karasik: That’s my--And also, did you want to talk a little bit about all the different flowers that are edibles that people don’t know about, different fl–like nasturtians [sic], for example. Graham: I’m really not educated on that aspect. My mother wasn’t into edible flowers, and I haven’t gone into it because I’ve been so enamored of the–the fruits, mais–mostly tree fruits. Karasik: Sure, yeah. Pe-- Graham: And–and thornless blackberries! Karasik: Oh! Graham: Yes, ‘cuz I grew up with the Olallie blackberry which mother had which was delicious but boy does that have thorns! (holds up both her hands, fingers spread wide to emphasize prickliness of thorns) Karasik: Really! Graham: Decades of research and now we have thornless varieties out there. Karasik: Oh, I didn’t know that! Graham: So, yes. Triple crown. Karasik: It’ll–it’ll be really interesting for botanists, for example, who might be–get to hear these–this interview, in particular, and see how things have changed. I mean, there is certainly the concern that California may become a desert. And we do definitely have water issues right now. Does that, uh, take up some of your time of concern? Graham: It is concerning. However, I tell people, “Well, um, hopefully when we get off this third year of really severe drought here in San Diego County and people actually start to feel they can put plants in the ground again, well, instead of putting ornamentals, why not put some edibles? Wouldn’t that be a better use of the water?” And as I said you can also customize, so you can put your–your edible in the variety that you couldn’t even find in the market. Karasik: Right. Like sunchokes, Jerusalem artichokes. Those are hard to find, and very nutritious-- Graham: Yeah. Karasik: --for example. Well, we could certainly talk about gardening (both Graham and Karasik chuckle). And that’s–and that was a lot of my reason for wanting to interview you, because I think this will be very interesting to, um, our descendants. I guess, uh, if there’s anymore that you’d like to tell about what you–what like what changes you would like to see for future generations, and if you had a chance to talk to some of these future generations, not just around Master Gardening but just about life in general and what you’ve learned over the years, what–what you think is most important that, uh-- Graham: Well, continuing on some of the issues that we mentioned--less lawn, and more drought tolerant or edibles. Um, now there are some people who have a legitimate desire to have a lawn. They have young kids who do want to play on it. But that doesn’t mean they have to have a lawn both front and the back. And, um, after a certain length of time, maybe they want to take the lawn out because their kids are no longer playing on it-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And cracking open the reference books, even good old Sunset Western Garden book. And it has a plant finder section. And one of the things that it addresses there are low water use plants. Karasik: Drought tolerant. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Yes. Graham: As well as delving through the various edibles-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --making sure you select the right variety for your microclimate, so you’re successful and don’t waste water on a variety that was doomed from the start. Karasik: Yeah. Hmm, well, we’ve just covered that so well. I think, more than--it sounds like you’ve had a wonderful life and, of course, everything’s not perfect. There is a question here. What are your regrets? Or what would you do over if you could. Did you want to speak to that by chance? Or-- Graham: Well, I regret my husband passed away. My husband died. Karasik: Yes. If you want to-- Graham: And I didn’t appreciate enough all the great cooking he used to do. Um, so now I’m spending a whole lot more time from going to the grocery store and buying the food and prepping the food and thinking ahead, “Okay, I have this many drumsticks. Am I going to eat chicken this many nights, or am I going to eat some of this, and what’s in the freezer, and how much time it takes.” ‘Cuz I’ve a terribly neglected yard. But I am enjoying the social aspect of going out for Master Gardener exhibits. Karasik: Yes. Graham: Especially since my husband is gone now. Karasik: Right. Graham: So-- Karasik: And it hasn’t been that long, so--I know that, um, my condolences and I know how that is. We–we all have to accept that part of life. And-- Graham: Mm-hmm. I’m grateful that he did have a good quality of life up until the very end. Karasik: Yes. And I think, too, that again that’s a lot why this oral history project is so important. Because we don’t realize what interesting lives people have had. And it doesn’t get documented. So, we certainly have more time. Um, here’s a couple of questions here around community that might–might be interesting. It says “In what w–ways is your neighborhood special or has it been unique or what are some of the favorite places in your community, and how has–how has this area changed since you moved here? And that’s-- Graham: Yeah. Karasik: --a big one. Graham: When my husband and I first moved here, we didn’t even buy groceries in Encinitas because there were very few grocery stores, you know. This was over forty-five years ago. And there was a grocery store we’d go right past when we were leaving that place of work. So, it made more sense to stop there, but it wasn’t in Encinitas. And of course, I like to spend my consumer dollars in my own community. And now we have over ten grocery stores!! I mean, in an hour--excuse me, in a mile and a half, I can walk to four different grocery stores in my community. And frequently I am walking because it’s checking off my exercise for the day and checking off my eco-point for the day, ‘cuz I’m not driving my vehicle, um, and I enjoy it! And Encinitas allows me to do this because of all the grocery stores they have, which forty-five years ago-- Karasik: And they’re some of the finest–some of the finest grocery stores. Graham: Nice diversity. Karasik: Not the least expensive, by any means, but definitely some of the highest quality and the largest diversity of what is offered. Graham: Yes. And we have farmer’s markets. Karasik: We do. Graham: Two of them in Encinitas. Karasik: Yeah. Let’s talk–let’s talk a little bit about those. Do you get to know any of those farmers? Or-- Graham: I actually--way back when, was it Harry Stone? Don’t quote me--who founded the first farmer’s market in San Diego County up in Vista. He was a member of the California Rare Fruit Growers. And I’ve been an avid member of the California Rare Fruit Growers for decades. And the idea took off and it was great. Karasik: You know, another interview that I did, I learned that the–there is a big difference, obviously, between an egg farm, a truck farm, and a—are you familiar with that? So, the truck farm is the vegetables that you would then truck to the market. And then obviously the egg farm and the chickens, because Cal State San Marcos that was a huge egg farm. And actually, on the way over here you were telling me there was a wonderful nursery here that has now been-- Graham: Sunshine Gardens Nursery is now closed, and it was a very nice nursery for I don’t know how many decades here. Karasik: Mm-hmm. And now it’s–it’s–they’re making room for housing because we need that, and–and I think all the more reason. We have community gardens here. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Did you want to talk a little bit about that? Graham: I think it’s wonderful we have a community garden, quite close to the Heritage Museum here in Encinitas. And there are people who live in condominiums or apartments and they don’t have a yard to put a garden. So, community garden gives them wonderful opportunity. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, now, I do want to encourage people, even if they don’t have a yard, to consider possibly growing—we used to call it pot culture, but now that gives you the wrong impression--container gardening! (laughs) Karasik: Right. Graham: Yes. For instance, you can grow a nice return of blackberries, pick the thornless varieties in a fifteen-gallon pot, fifteen-gallon black plastic pot. Or you can put a more decorative pot if you’d like and make it more decorative, and you can put it on your balcony perhaps on your condominium or apartment. Mind that you give it full sun, etc. But, even without having a yard, there are some edibles you can grow if you research things carefully. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Have you found that people in your neighborhood come to you and ask you for your advice? Or how do you--(both she and Graham chuckle) I think I’m going to be asking you for some advice, for sure. Graham: Well, this was an interesting first four months in the year 2022. I captured six gophers. Now only one of them in my yard. I’m grateful for it was only one in my yard. But the other five were in three different neighbors’ yards. And I was labeled the gopher getter. I’ve captured gophers in other yards previous years too, but this was an especially active first four months of the year, for some reason. Karasik: Do you think—and I might even have heard somewhere--do you think that the drought had a lot to do with that, that they might even be seeking water or food, or are–are they--maybe they’ve increased their offspring. Do we know why? Graham: I don’t think so. I didn’t hear anything connecting those variables. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: It was just a-- Karasik: And then where do you take ‘em? When you catch them. Graham: Well, there are no have-a-heart traps for gophers. You realize this is–(makes a gesture with her right hand of cutting off her head and lets out a scraping sound) these are kill traps. Karasik: Oh. Graham: Because the gopher is not a wanted critter to release in a wild area. No. So, the traps you’d use are kill traps for gophers. Karasik: Hmm. Unfortunate, but necessary. Graham: Mm-hmm. Because remember if you don’t deal with it early, the pest note that University of California Cooperative Extension puts out on gophers, I believe it says, “In irrigated areas, like our gardens, gophers can have up to three litters a year.” And I believe they said the number in the litter can vary from like five to seven. So, that’s a pretty horrific number of offspring they could produce in a year, if you don’t deal with them quickly. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And I think it was this year I was given the gopher getter title, because the one party I trapped a gopher successfully was just put the trap in one day and the next day I had it. And she happened to comment to her neighbor across the street, and he had a gopher, so he contacted me. And there were these three neighbors fairly close to each other on an adjacent street, that-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Graham: And the first four months of the year that--bing–bing–bing. Karasik: Hmm. Um, going back to--you’ve mentioned a couple of times. So it’s U.C. California San Diego, because when I tried to contact you, there is a division there. Do you want to tell us a little bit how that’s set up, ‘cuz I know you’re kind of under their umbrella. And-- Graham: Well, the Master Gardener program is a volunteer branch of the University of California Cooperative Extension. It’s not just one university, ‘cuz sometimes people have thought, “Oh, you’re office is at U.C.S.D.” No, no, it’s actually in the County Operations Center in Corina Mesa. Karasik: Mmm. Graham: And we have information that is generated from all of these universities throughout the state. Now some of it applies directly to where we’re here in the San Diego. Another applies to more northern California areas. But the information clearly tells you that. And of course, our tax money is paying for some of this research, because we have a very productive agricultural economy in California. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And the research is directed toward the agricultural, commercial aspect. But there are spinoff bits of information that are generated that directly help the home gardener as well. So we’re out there. As a matter of fact, if I can bend your ear, the story about the creation of the Master Gardener program was apparently it started in Washington state. And this good-hearted cooperative extension agent was getting a lot of calls, people having questions on their home garden situation. But he was being paid to advise and help out the commercial growers and farmers. And he didn’t want to be rude and not help them, but he had his plate full helping the commercial farmers. So he got the brilliant idea. I’ll train a crew of volunteers and when I get a home garden question I will pass the question on to them. And that’s what I was told started the Master Gardener program. And now I’ve been told that we actually have Master Gardeners in all fifty states. Karasik: Oh, wow, good. Graham: So-- Karasik: Oh, that’s great. Well, um, we’ve certainly had an interesting conversation here and if there’s anything else that you would like to tell. We’re so appreciative of the work that you’ve done and I can see where that’s been a really big part of your life and I’ve–I’m assuming very rewarding-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --and it’s enabled you to make a lot of friends and-- Graham: And I’d like to say also I’m very pleased to volunteer for the Solana Center for Environmental Innovation. Karasik: Oh, that’s such a great place. Graham: Right here in Encinitas. Karasik: Let’s talk about that just for a little bit, because again in the future I think that will be something that will still be here. Graham: Yes, of course. Karasik: And they do so many things there. Let’s talk about that a little bit. Graham: Well, they were at the Encinitas EcoFest, right next to my Master Gardener exhibit. And they teach many aspects and as far as gardening, composting, very important. And instead of having that truck rumble through your neighborhood once a week and pick up the green waste in the bin, if more of us could compost on site, it would help the environment. Also, of course, if you’ve ever gone to the nursery and priced bags of potting soil and compost, it’s not inexpensive if you consider the number of bags you could use as an avid gardener for the year. Karasik: And I don’t know if we always know where all that soil came from. Graham: Well, it is nice to have control of it from your own garden and know what went into it exactly. Karasik: Exactly. Graham: And while it does take a little bit of room and it does take some time, it also is a nice excuse to get out into the fresh air in the garden. Karasik: What do you recommend, because I know a lot of people are afraid to compost because they think it will bring critters? Graham: Oh, okay. When you are putting certain elements in the compost pile that you think might accidentally bring critters like the egg shell, or the citrus peel or the avocado pits or something, it is highly recommended that you bury that in the compost pile with a layer at least four inches maybe even six inches of yard trimmings above it. That will basically absorb any odors and of course it’s not recommended that you put bones in the compost pile, because that would tend to attract critters. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Now, will–will worms come into that? Or is a worm compost kind of a separate approach to composting? Graham: Well there is vermicompost in a worm bin. Karasik: Right. Graham: Worms will come into your compost pile. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And you give them things to eat. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: The fruit waste, like the peels and pits, etc. As well as the decomposing leaves and twigs, etc. Karasik: Leftover food, and lettu—greens, things like that. Graham: Vegetables and fruits leftover. Karasik: Yeah. Yeah. Graham: Not meat. Of course. Karasik: Right, right. Graham: Not meat or bugs. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: And of course, you’ve moistened the environment in the compost pile to help it decompose and they–worms breathe through their skin and they need a moist–yep, they actually need a moist skin to survive. So, they are very happy to find this moist environment which offers them perfect lodging and food buffet, moisture, yes. Karasik: Just for my own curiosity. I’ve always been fascinated by earthworms and the fact that you’ve–that you’ve–they’re w–w–one of the few living beings where you can cut off their head and they’ll grow another one. Is that correct? Graham: No. that’s not-- Karasik: They’ll grow, maybe not their head, but the back end or-- Graham: No. Karasik: That’s not true? Graham: Um, too many people--I mean, depending on the amount you cut off at the tail end, they might survive. Karasik: Not intentionally, obviously. Graham: Yeah. But if you accidentally cut one in two, some people have this misconception that you’ll get two worms. No. It’ll die. Karasik: Aw. I had that misconception. Graham: Yeah. That’s a popular-- Karasik: And they are so critical. Graham: Yes. Karasik: They are so critical. But probably one of the most or when we look at–at soil. Are you familiar with soil regeneration and some of the ways that they’re trying now to--because so much of our soil has been depleted? Do you get involved in that, or are you just-- Graham: Well, with the compost pile, you’re helping replenish. Karasik: mm-hmm. Graham: And when you think about it, okay. The nutrients it takes for let’s say your peach tree to make peaches, it has to make leaves. Well, some of that is from the very leaves that came, matured, off the tree. So, you’re recycling it in the compost pile and putting it back underneath the tree when you’re putting some compost into the soil under your peach tree. Karasik: Right. Wonderful. That’s–that’s a good point as well. Graham: Mm-hmm. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: So you’re just basically recycling the nutrients as opposed to chucking them into the trash and hauling them off to the land fill. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: And not even chucking them into the green bin and having them hauled off. But, at least when it goes to the green facility at Miramar, it gets repurposed. But it’s more. Karasik: Have you ever visited that place? Graham: Oh yes! It was fantastic. This was decades ago. Karasik: That would be a wonderful tour. Graham: There was a field trip--I don’t remember if it was Master Gardeners or the Encin--the Solana Center sponsored the field trip decades ago. It was so much fun! And wow, it was interesting. Karasik: I’d like to do that. I’d also like to visit one of these desalination plants and see how they’re doing that. Graham: Oh, yes. Karasik: Because that seems to be the future. Now, that’s another point. Graham: I was able to take a tour of that too. That was Solana Center that hosted that decades ago. Karasik: Oh, did they? Graham: From up the street at the Carlsbad Desalinization Plant. Karasik: Yes! I might ask them if they know how somebody can do that now. One other thing I wanted to ask about the Solana Center. I had seen something where you can get some buckets and take it home, and so you can kind of get compost from them, or maybe a starter? How does that work? Graham: Um, you pay a fee. I—don’t quote me because I’m not sure exactly how much it is. You get a bucket to take home, and you put your fruit and vegetable waste in it, and also bones and—in other words, if you’re not composting you put these materials in there. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And it has some bokashi in it, which ferments it. Karasik: Is bokashi an organism that breaks it down? Graham: It’s a-- Karasik: What is that? Graham: --it’s more like a chemical-- Karasik: Oh, okay. Graham: --that pickles it. I think it’s what they compare it to. Karasik: Okay. Graham: And you can take that back, and then you can get some finished compost as well. So-- Karasik: Oh, that’s how-- Graham: --but you’ll–you’ll want to call the Solana Center and ask for the details. Karasik: Right. Yes. I’ve been over there and they were very supportive to us-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --for the EcoFest as well. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Well, I just want to thank you for your time. And this has been a really interesting and educational interview. And you have definitely had a wonderful life, and I sense the fact that you will be around for quite a while and helping a whole lot more people. And I’m so happy to know you and really appreciate your time, and what you’re going to offer for future generations. Graham: Well, thanks for this opportunity to reach out to people. Karasik: Oh, absolutely. You’re so welcome. So again we’re--actually, I don’t know if I mentioned this. We’re at the San Dieguito Heritage Museum which is here in Encinitas and I really wish that people could see that, although they’ll have the opportunity to do that, you know, locally. But the history here at this particular museum is incredible, as well. So, would encourage people to come out if they happen to listen to this and we thank them also for the opportunity to use their equipment, and hope that this will be a good video. So, thank you very much. Graham: You’re very welcome. Karasik: And we will finish here. GLOSSARY Babcock peach (pg. 15) Biophaline (pg. 7, 8) California Rare Fruit Growers (pg. 18-19) Carlsbad Desalinization Plant (pg. 24) County Operations Center [Corina Mesa] (pg. 20) EcoFest (pg.1, 6, 10, 14, 21, 25) Glyphosate (pg.6) Heritage Museum (pg. 19) Integrated Pest Management (pg.3, 4) Johns Hopkins University (pg. 11) Kirkcaldy, Scotland (pg. 12) Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility (pg. 10, 14) Master Gardener(s) (pg. 1-4, 6, 12-15, 17, 20-21, 24) Panamint nectarine (pg. 15) Polychaete (pg. 7, 8) San Dieguito Heritage Museum (pg. 25) San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station [Plant One] (pg. 7, 8, 10, 12) Solana Center for Environmental Innovation (pg. 21, 24-25) Stone, Harry (pg. 18) Sunset Western Garden book (pg. 13, 17) Sunshine Gardens Nursery (pg. 19) Truck farm (pg. 19) University of California Cooperative Extension (pg. 12, 20, 21) Vermicompost (pg. 22) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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Title
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Graham, Carol. Interview November 4, 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
Carol Graham is a Master Garderner. She has a Bachelor's degree in Zoology and began her career working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One. After its closure, she enrolled to become a Master Gardner volunteer that was sponsered through the University of California Cooperative Extension program. The Master Gardner program is dedicated to distributing information for an environmentally-responsible home and garden. She has been a Master Gardner since 1983 and participates in various events such as EcoFest. She is very passionate about the study of insects, pest management, composting, and protecting the environment from pesticides.
Identifier
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SC027-028
Subject
The topic of the resource
Crops -- Diseases and pests -- Biological control
Gardening -- California -- San Diego County
Master gardeners -- California -- San Diego County
Organic farming
San Diego State University
San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station (Calif.)
University of California (System). Cooperative Extension
Date
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2022-11-04
Format
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video
Creator
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Carol Graham
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Suzy Karasik
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Encinitas (Calif.)
San Diego North County (Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Carol Graham
Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2caac1a8cfc3ca29c2de994f0935e8bb.pdf
86bdb8529b42a059d7ccb366fdf0c96c
PDF Text
Text
April 26, 2023
Transcript
Suzy Karasik: Good morning. My name is Suzy Karasik. Today is November 4th and I am
interviewing Carol Graham, Master Gardener, native Californian, and so much that we will learn
here in part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Carol, thank you for joining me today.
(coughs)
Carol Graham: (nods) My pleasure.
Karasik: And, um, I wanted to just say briefly how I met Carol. I’m part of the EcoFest that we
had here in Encinitas a couple of weeks ago. It’s an annual event that we do to educate people to
everything involved with the ecology and the environment here in the county. And Carol had an
incredible display (Carol gestures with her arms to display the posterboards on a table behind
her) with the Master Gardeners, which we’ve been able to set up here and hopefully make it a
little bit more readable. (Carol holds up a model of a fly, with a paper flyer attached and hanging
below it) And Carol, let’s just start here. As we had discussed, let’s talk a little bit about where
you born and your childhood and if any of that happened to prepare you for what was to come in
your most interesting life and, um, how you’ve identified yourself over the years and your
relationship with the county. So, you can start there.
Graham: Well, I was born in North Claremont, the city of San Diego. And my mother was a very
avid fruit tree gardener. And I really benefited because when my husband and I moved up here to
Encinitas over forty years ago, it’s a similar microclimate to the one I grew up in, which means
the fruit trees that I enjoyed—gardening at my mother’s knees, and fell in love with certain
varieties of nectarines and other delicious fruits, loquats—I could grow those same varieties here
which was nice.
Karasik: Yes.
Graham: And it was a very pleasant community to grow up in.
Karasik: If I may ask, if you don’t mind, what year were you born, or—
Graham: Oh. (chuckles) 1952.
Karasik: Okay.
Graham: Yes. So, I just recently celebrated—not that many months ago—my 70th birthday.
Karasik: Yes! So, tell us a little bit about your school and what it was like here in the North
County—well, you were actually down in San Diego—
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: —as you were growing up.
Graham: I went to elementary school and junior high in the city of San Diego.
1
�Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Now, my father was a career Marine. So, we had three years in Virginia, and I
graduated from high school in Virginia.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And then we came back to San Diego because the house had been rented—not sold. So,
we were able to come back to the same garden, the same microclimate, which was great for the
garden—
Karasik: Yes.
Graham: —the same fruit trees waiting for us—
Karasik: Yes.
Graham: —the ones that we had planted earlier. So, it was a very pleasant experience, very
supportive of the interests that I continue to enjoy today.
Karasik: So–so you graduated from high school in–in–out east, and—
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: —then you came back out here. What were your–What was your initial work, and—
Graham: Well, I went to S.D.S.U. and earned a bachelor’s degree in Zoology—
Karasik: Mmm.
Graham: —because animals have always fascinated me, and that’s not just the animals many
people first think of are the gigantic giraffe and interesting hippopotamus, and rhinoceros. But
I’m also fascinated by what some people will refer to as the–the bugs (holds up a stuffed toy
puppet ladybug, and chuckles). So, um—
Karasik: Let’s talk about the bugs a little bit.
Graham: Yeah. Well, I am very pleased to educate people on—well, most people recognize this
as one of their favorite bugs in the whole garden, the lady beetle. (has now put on the puppet on
her right hand and is holding it up in front of her) People call it the ladybug, but it’s more
scientific to call it the lady beetle. Because actually the word “bug” has a derogatory reference. It
comes from old English, meaning something unpleasant (makes a face, and gestures with her left
hand to indicate something scattering away). So, lady beetle is the more appropriate, better
name. And it’s interesting in that its larval stage looks creepy! (holds up another stuffed animal,
which appears to be a larval stage representation of the lady beetle). So—
Karasik: I did not know that!
Graham: —the larval stage, as I tell people, “Yes, it looks like a creepy, six-legged, micro
alligator.” So, it’s very important that we reach out to the public, as Master Gardeners, and
inform people “when you see this in the garden, don’t assume it’s something bad.” (she shakes
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�the larval-stage, stuffed animal) For instance, (turns to her right and looks at the posterboard
behind her, first to one with the header “IPM” then points to the board with the header
“Identify”) one of the first steps of Integrated Pest Manager—which is what I.P.M. stands for—
is identify friend or foe. Because if you assume this is bad (holds up the larval stage stuffed toy)
and as many people have told me as they come by our Master Gardener exhibit, they had no idea
it was a lady beetle larva. They thought it was something bad ‘cuz it looks creepy! You know
what they had told me they had done? They sprayed it with pesticide, or they squished it, or they
taught their kids to be afraid of it, which was so sad. Especially since this (shakes the larval
stage toy) can not do any good if you squish it! (laughs) Um, but I admit, yes, it looks creepy.
And we also educate people that not all lady beetles look like this. (Shakes her right hand which
has the mature lady beetle puppet on it) Not all of them are red.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: So, we have an assortment of photos that show different colors for the different species
‘cuz it–it’s great to benefit not from just one species of lady beetle (again shakes her puppeted
right hand) but several. (Turns to put both of those stuffed toys down on the bench next to her,
then holds up a stuffed toy that looks like a mosquito, which has a paper flyer hanging off of it.).
And on the dark side, we also need to educate people about this character.
Karasik: Ugh.
Graham: Now, a Master Gardener friend of mine made both this educational model (again holds
up the larval stage toy) and this (holds up mosquito toy). And she made them too pretty, in a
way, because this looks, actually, quite attractive. And it is the creepy mosquito! And I think
we’ve all been bitten by mosquitoes. And some people don’t realize but the mosquito actually
has been given the horrific title of the most deadly animal we share the planet with, because the
part it plays vectoring malaria, dengue, yellow fever. Even West Nile virus killed some of our
residents here in San Diego County. It was about fifteen, seventeen years ago.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Now, it’s true that apparently everyone who died of West Nile virus in our county had
pre-existing medical conditions or they would have survived. But it’s also true some of those
people could be alive today if they hadn’t been bitten by infected mosquitoes. But unfortunately,
3the mosquito larvae are not easily identifiable for people who haven’t been introduced to them.
And many of our neighbors are growing mosquito larvae in their bird baths and other watercontaining items, children’s toys, and buckets in the garden. Stagnant water is where the mother
mosquito likes to lay her eggs. In a few days, those eggs hatch out to larvae. And when I have
displayed larvae—‘cuz sometimes I’ll deliberately grow them to have them on exhibit, and I take
the lid off the jar only after I make sure they’re just in the larval stage. No adults to fly out and
bite people. And I will ask people as they come to the exhibit, “Do you know what this is?” and
over half the adults have no idea it’s mosquito larvae, which is very disturbing, because they’re
growing them possibly in their gardens. And when they see them, they’re not motivated to dump
it out, ‘cuz they don’t know what it is.
3
�Karasik: This is so important, and so, uh, (Graham puts down the mosquito toy) so–so much of it
is actually unknown to the public. I’m curious, if you wanted to just kind of go through these
four stages, if you will. (Carol stands up and turns toward posterboards) And then we’ll talk
more about how you even became to be a Master Gardener. But I don’t want to—
Graham: Okay.
Karasik: —uh, (Carol sits back down again) forget to look at a little bit more of your early
days—
Granham: Okay.
Karasik: —so we’ll come back.
Graham: (she turns toward the board that reads “IPM.”) Well, the first stage in Integrated Pest
Management, as I said, is Identify—(points to the posterboard reading “Identify”) friends, and
admittedly some of these friends do look creepy—(points to photographs under the subheading
“Friends” on that posterboard)
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: —and foes. (points to, and circles with her right-hand finger, various photographs under
the subheading “Foes”). And here, kind of the star of the show, (circles the middle of the board,
which has a collage of photos) indeed, we recognize the adult lady beetle (points to the photo of
the lady beetle). I hardly ever see the eggs (points to a photo of lady beetle eggs) and I have my
head in the garden a lot, so I’m surprised I don’t see them more often. But, at certain times of the
year, I’ll see the larval stage, (points to a photo of a larval lady beetle) and as I said, I’ll admit it
looks creepy like a six-legged micro alligator. And the pupal stage (points to a photo of a pupa of
a lady beetle). And if, ideally, people would get this in high school or junior high school biology,
it would be so helpful for the public health of our communities. And then of course you move on
(stands up and points to the posterboard with the subheading “Understand”) to understand
relationships, like the sooty mold, which is this black powdery (points to a photo of leaves with
black mold on it) material you frequently find on some infected leaves (reads the text above the
photos, indicating it with her left hand)—“grows on the honeydew, produced by sucking insects.”
So, unfortunately, it’s not uncommon to have aphids or mealybugs or whiteflies or scale. And what
goes in one end to their body as food—‘cuz they puncture the tender leaves and they’re sucking
the sap—comes out the other end of their body, and instead of calling it like “aphid poop” it's
called “honeydew.”
Karasik: (chuckles)
Graham: And this honeydew is a rich source of food for the growth, unfortunately, of ants which
will protect these bad guys and sooty mold to grow. And here (points to a photo of ants) we see
the ants will actually chase away the good guys who would eat some of these bad guys. But the
ants are kind of protecting the bad guys because they’re eating—
Karasik: That’s their sustenance.
4
�Graham: —the honeydew. Yeah. It’s kind of like we—
Karasik: Yeah.
Graham: —protect our dairy cattle from predators who might eat them, because we want to milk
them and benefit from them.
Karasik: Right, right.
Graham: (then points to the text toward the bottom with her left hand) And understanding leads to
multiple control approaches—biological, cultural, chemical, physical. There’s quite a diversity
there. (She then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Assess,” points to the text
with her left hand, and reads) And assess. Butterflies and moths are pollinators. Butterfly and moth
larvae are consumers. Well, some bugs, I say they’re like children. They don’t always behave.
They do some good and some bad (chuckles). And you have to kind of evaluate how it interacts in
your garden. (points directly to the camera and whispers “The screen went dark. Is that a problem?
Appears to wait for answer, and then says “okay,” and continues) You have to assess how they
interact (using her left hand, she circles above a diagram showing the cycle of interaction of
insects) in your garden, whether the bit of bad they do is less than the good they do. So, you can
label them a good or a bad. Um, and of course, the green fruit beetle (points to the bottom of the
board, to a photo of a beetle). Well, some people label it a pest, because it will attack, damage
overripe soft fruits—peach, nectarines, plums, apricot—‘cuz it’s drawn to the fragrance. But, the
grub, which admittedly looks creepy, is a fantastic decomposer. And it’s in all our compost piles,
helping break things down. And it has a strict diet of eating rotting organic matter only. Although,
it does look similar to the June Beetle grubs which eat live plant roots and tubers and corms. So, I
try and teach people how to tell the difference—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: (then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Control” and points to a
pyramid illustration) —and then the control aspects, from cultural which is considered benign
approach; mechanical and physical—I mean, just physically pulling (with her left hand, mimics
pulling off the insects from the photos on the “Assess” posterboard) the snails off your plants;
biological—reloos–reducing–releasing—excuse me—lady beetles, or recognizing the lady beetle
larvae that you do have so you don’t accidentally spray it with pesticide; to chemical (points to the
top of the pyramid on “Control” posterboard). And all these different approaches are out there
(waves her left hand above the pyramid) and they should be assessed and see how they fit into
your garden. So, I think that (waves her left hand in front of all four posterboards, indicating
totality) kind of reviews them all.
Karasik: Pretty much covers that. Before we go back to your childhood, I’m going to pause here
just for a minute (Graham sits back down and nods)
Karasik: Okay, Carol. I think probably one of the most important aspects of this beautiful
background that you chose to bring is the chemical aspect of the pest management. (Carol points
to the pyramid on the “Control” posterboard) So, let’s talk a little bit about that and the toxicity
because I’m thinking that our descendants that may be watching this oral history in the years to
5
�come will know a whole lot–a lot more about what would have been a more wise pest management
than we do now.
Graham: (again pointing at the posterboard) Well, the chemical aspect is considered the most
toxic, and we want you to try the cultural, physical, and biological approaches first. And under the
chemical (reads the text on the posterboard, which I’ve designated in quotations) “Use only in
combination with the other controls.” It’s not like you have to use only these or only the chemical.
You can use them together. And hopefully you won’t even have to go to the chemicals. Hopefully,
you can control it by the other approaches. “Use a pest–pest specific non-broad-spectrum
pesticide.” In other words, if you do feel you have to use a chemical pesticide, don’t spray the
whole garden, and make sure that before you buy any pesticide you carefully read the container
and that it mentions the specific pest you’re trying to address, ‘cuz there are pesticides out there
that would be totally wasted if you bought this pesticide and it didn’t apply to this pest that you
were trying to control.
Karasik: Right.
Graham: And yet you introduce something toxic into the environment unnecessarily—very
undesirable, of course. “Select the least toxic pesticide to reduce potential risks. Always read and
follow directions on the pesticide label. It’s the law.” And as I tell people, well, the first thing you
read before you buy any pesticide is will it address your target, you also want to make sure is it
okay to put on the plant you want to put it on, ‘cuz many of us are growing edibles, and some of
the pesticides like insecticidal soap are okay to put on edibles—fruits and vegetables—and will
mention that on the paper. Whereas there are other pesticides that you definitely wouldn’t want to
put on your edibles, ‘cuz they can get soaked into the plant, and you wouldn’t want to be eating
them when you’re eating the produce from that plant.
Karasik: Right. I–I was curious if you feel that very many people are actually aware, for example,
of the dangers of glyphosate and how that has pretty much penetrated the entire planet. And I’m
wondering in the future, um, you know, what will–what will become of that. Do you try to educate
specifically on that or does that bother you that it’s still sold and advertised and is just so deadly?
Graham: Well, mostly, we’re not targeting any one pesticide. We want people to open their minds
to p–basically trying chemical, physical, and biological approaches before they’d even consider
the pesticide. So, we spend most of our time—if we can teach them about biological control,
physical control, or cultural control, hopefully they’ll never even have to get to the point where
they’re considering a chemical pesticide.
Karasik: Right. Right. And when you–you go into schools and tell me a little bit about who–who
all is your audience. Obviously, festivals like we had—
Graham: Oh, the Encinitas EcoFest was very nice—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: —attended. And, of course, we do have many Master Gardeners helping in school
gardens. And of course, when you’re talking to the students and their supervisors—the teachers,
6
�the staff, chaperones, and parents—about how to properly grow this product that they’re going to
pick from the garden and eat, you definitely want to mention that “okay, we’re not going to put
this pesticide on here because we don’t have any pests on this. Isn’t it great?” That kind of thing.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Or “oh, we do have pests. We have snails, sliming up the trunk of our citrus tree.” But
instead of using a pesticide, we can teach them, of course, much simpler approach, just pick it off.
Karasik: How–huh–who knew!
Graham: Or we can use a copper band, because snails don’t actually like to slime over copper. It
tastes bad for them. So, if we teach them that, we are hopefully enlightening them so when they
actually grow to adulthood and have their own yards and their own gardens, they will not first grab
the chemical control approach.
Karasik: Oh, uh, that’s really great. Well, let’s talk a little bit about, I think maybe, how your life
tha–developed, how you met your husband.
Graham: Okay.
Karasik: And, um, let’s–let’s hear about that.
Graham: Well, I was attending San Diego State University, working on my Bachelor of Science
in Zoology degree, and my husband, actually, had graduated from there and he was the teaching
aide for the lab class in one of the biology classes. So, that’s how I met him, which is interesting.
He was in marine biology which was kind of far away from my backyard biology, but still a
biologist. And within a year of completing my degree, we were both working at Saturn Oak–San
Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One, in that the Nuclear Generating Station would shut
down, I believe it was like every eight weeks, and they would heat-treat and chemical-treat the
water intake system, because they had a large pipe—I think it was, like, twelve-foot diameter or
something—and it was sucking in ocean water which was cooling some of the rest of the system
at the nuclear power plant. But you’re sucking in water from the ocean, so you’re sucking in
barnacles and polychaetas and other biophaline. They settle on the pipe and they grow. And this
of course not only reduces the diameter of the water intake flow, but also when you’re treating,
you might end up with some of these clogs of biophaline getting sucked in and causing problems.
So, every, I think it was eight weeks, but don’t quote me on that, I think they were shutting the
plant down to chemically treat and heat treat to kill the biophaline so it didn’t keep growing.
Unfortunately, every time they shut the plant down, I believe I was told it was $10,000 more an
hour for the energy company to buy energy to supply us than it was making the energy at San
Onofre. And people really didn’t relate to this because they’d flip the lights on and the switch
would come on because the power company was being responsible and making sure the power
was there, even though it was costing more. But people were, of course, ending up having to pay
a bit more, because it was more expensive when it was shut down. Now, as a biologist, it seemed
pretty obvious that in the cold of the winter, the biophaline wasn’t growing as fast. And why were
we shutting down the power plant every eight weeks, year-round, regardless of the time of the
year. So, on site, I like to joke, I was basically locked into this research trailer, and I was measuring
7
�the biophaline on these research plates, so identifying which quadrat on which plate, and what was
the diameter of that barnacle, and this polychaete, and that barnacle. And we measured them, for
a year, and we were able to show people the hard scientific evidence that things were growing
slower in the cold winter waters. And they didn’t have to shut the plant down as often. So, in the
end, after we generated–processed all the data, etc., indeed they considered this quite a successful
study. So, they weren’t shutting the plant down every week–eight weeks in the winter, because
they realized things weren’t growing as fast, as far as the biophaline. So, everybody in the long
run saved money, even the cost of the research, which seemed quite expensive at the time although
now that the quanti–the money for that research project doesn’t seem quite as expensive as it was
decades ago. But they more than saved, because of the change they could do in running the plant.
Karasik: I’m curious, too, because you didn’t have computers back then. Or did you have s—
Graham: It was much slower.
Karasik: Yeah. You did have some large, like, big equipment that did do some processing.
Graham: I’ve talked about after the year of being locked into the research trailer on site of San
Onofre, I was locked for a year (chuckles) into the office to transfer the data. Whereas, if we’d had
more sophisticated computers back then, it would have been much faster.
Karasik: Right. Now, where was your husband working at the–at San Onofre.
Graham: Well, he was the lead investigator, so we were locked into the same trailer.
Karasik: Oh, that was nice! (chuckles)
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: I’m curi—
Graham: There were three of us in the trailer.
Karasik: Right. I’m curious, too, because I think it’s important from a–a women’s perspective. Did
you feel any sense of a gender discrimination, or were women respected?
Graham: No. I was given full respect.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Um, because it didn’t matter what my gender was. I was still going to be locked into
that research trailer. ‘Cuz it’s–it was San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station. So, basically, you
went to the main entrance. You were evaluated, basically. They also threw the dice and every
three or four or six people would be body-searched, (chuckles) physically patted down—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: —going in. And this was before we really thought of terrorist activities much. And then
we had to walk directly to the research trailer. And even at lunch we didn’t leave the research
8
�trailer. We would bring our lunches in and stay in that trailer until the end of the day, research
day.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And we walked right out. But I never felt—
Karasik: And was your pay equal?
Graham: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Karasik: Oh, that’s—I’m really happy to hear that.
Graham: I mean, not necessarily equal to my husband, because he was the lead investigator.
Karasik: Correct.
Graham: But equal to the other party, who happened to be a guy, in the research trailer doing the
same work I was doing.
Karasik: Mm-hmm. Well, I’m glad to hear that. And it must have also really been nice to work
with your husband and be able to share your knowledge and excitement about the job. That must
have been–been really great.
Graham: Well, he was a marine biologist, so he was quite into it.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Now, I wasn’t as into the organisms, because I was more terrestrial biologist, of course.
Karasik: Right.
Graham: Backyard gardening, etc.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: But I did appreciate the fact that this was a–basically a clean form of energy, compared
to burning coal.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And, um—
Karasik: And how do you feel about that now? Not that we have to go into a huge nuclear
discussion.
Graham: Well, now it’s shut down.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And of course, the–the complication is dealing with the remnants, the radioactive
remnants.
Karasik: Yes.
9
�Graham: And I’d like to see the country go more and more into clean energy—but nuclear was
considered clean—
Karasik: Right.
Graham: —and weed ourself away from the energy sources that are not considered good for the
environment.
Karasik: You know, that reminds me. At the EcoFest, there was another booth that passed out
quite a bit of information about the San Onofre situation and what we need to know as far as how
close some of those storage tanks are to water sources and other things like that. Do you—is that
a concern for you at all? Or do you think the public is aware of that?
Graham: I think they’re doing a good job dealing with that. I would eventually like to see that
material moved. For decades now, they’ve talked about moving it to a—I’ve forgotten the exact
location.
Karasik: There’s a place in Nevada, I know.
Graham: Yeah. I don’t know exactly where in Nevada, but—
Karasik: And then, of course, there’s the NIMBY—Not In My Backyard.
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: And then the people in Nevada were like “Well, you know, we don’t want it here.” So, I
think this is an interesting discussion that in decades to come when people come back and look at
this and will see what–what’s been done that’s much more safe, and–and won’t that–won’t that
be great, hopefully.
Graham: But, I’m sure glad we weren’t burning more—
Karasik: Yes.
Graham: —coal at the time to generate that energy—
Karasik: Exactly.
Graham: —when we were using.
Karasik: And that–and that’s still an issue. So, then, tell me a little bit about either how San
Onofre ended. You had a–a–I know you have one son that you had mentioned to me. So, tell me
a little bit about your family and tell me about your–your parents and your husband’s parents,
and where they came from and, you know, how your lives developed here in North County.
Graham: Oh. Well, my husband and I moved to Encinitas over forty years ago. And, because it
was relatively close to where the Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility was, where I was
staying in the office for a year and processing the data from San Onofre. And my parents still
lived in San Diego and my in-laws also lived in San Diego. So, it was smart to live on the
Encinitas, south of where we went to work, because that was closer to go and visit them, which
10
�we frequently did. And my son—the family joke is “What does the only child of two biologists
go into study-wise and stay in science, but get as far away philosophically and geographically
from any of the biological studies as possible?” Astrophysics! (chuckles) So he got his–actually,
his PhD finally. He started with his bachelor’s at Berkeley, and then wan–went to on get his
Ph.D. at a–a—what is that, in Maryland, the institution?—
Karasik: In Annapolis, or?—
Graham: People think first of the medical aspect.
Karasik: Right. Mm, we’ll come back to that.
Graham: He’s going to criticize me for not remembering where he got his PhD.
Karasik: Mmm.
Graham: Anyway. And he had some research in astrophysics.
Karasik: Not John Hopkins? [sic]
Graham: John Hopkins, [sic] yes. I’m sorry.
Karasik: Johns Hopkins. Okay, great.
Graham: I’m going to have to apologize for a minute, not remembering, John Hopkins. [sic]
Karasik: That’s alright. Yeah.
Graham: He got his PhD at John Hopkins. [sic] Yes.
Karasik: Yes. Prestigious. Yes.
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: So, you had just the one son?
Graham: Just the one son.
Karasik: Okay. So, tell me a little bit about where your parents came from, um, you know, what
generation you are. Did they come directly to California? Do you know? ‘Cuz a lot of us don’t
really know where our ancestors came from, other than immediate. How much do you know
about both yours and your husband’s?
Graham: Okay, my mother was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota. My father was born in Ohio.
Now, I believe, possibly, the previous generation had come from Ireland and England and
Germany. My in-laws, my mother-in-law was born in, I think, Kansas City, Missouri, which is,
you know, Kansas City but it’s in Missouri, but I guess it’s a city that’s—
Karasik: They’re sister cities on the border.
Graham: Yes. Right across the river from each other.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
11
�Graham: And my father-in-law was born in Kirkcaldy, Scotland.
Karasik: Mmm! So he immigrated here and—
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: —with his wife? Do you know?
Graham: No.
Karasik: Or did he meet her here?
Graham: He married her here.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: And then I guess they all decided to come out to California? Do you know anything
about that journey?
Graham: Um, my father-in-law was working, I believe, in the aircraft industry, which was quite
active at one time in San Diego.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Manufacturing. And my father was a career Marine, and was stationed out here at
Camp Pendleton and—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: —some other facilities in southern California.
Karasik: There’s a lot of history from Camp Pendleton that will be in our Oral History.
Graham: Oh! Good.
Karasik: Yeah. So, I guess probably, let’s switch then a little bit. When we look at your life’s
work, uh, did–did you want to say more about after you didn’t work for San Onofre anymore, did
you get more involved tha—How did you get involved with the Master Gardeners? Let’s go
there.
Graham: Oh, well, um, we had my son.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And my neighbors warned me that, “If you’re looking for infant childcare, you can’t
depend on the local teenagers, if you want to do a routine.” And I wanted to apply to Master
Gardeners, which was going to be, I think, seventeen consecutive Tuesdays, and you were
expected to attend every one, ideally. And I was wondering, “Okay.” So I asked my mother, “I
would like to go through this Master Gardener program which is put on through the University of
California Cooperative Extension and become a Master Gardener volunteer, which is dedicated
12
�to disseminating information for a successful and environmentally responsible home gardening.
But your infant grandson would need care every Tuesday for like seventeen consecutive
Tuesdays.” And she said yes. So, I’m very beholden to my mother because—
Karasik: Thank you, mother!
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: Yes.
Graham: Because otherwise I’m not sure where I could have dropped him off for just—
Karasik: Right. And what year would that have been?
Graham: He was born in 1982.
Karasik: Mmm, so you had—
Graham: Then it was in 1983 that I started the Master Gardener program.
Karasik: Oh. Wonderful.
Graham: He was just a year old.
Karasik: Okay. So, how would you say that work has changed over the years for you, and just
tell me more about—I–I–I think, in these interviews we want genera–future generations that
come back and watch this and want to learn about the community and how the peoples lives
were affected (Carol points to something off camera), what you’d—(Carol looks again off
camera and starts to chuckle) what you would want them to know.
Graham: Well, Encinitas is a great community to live in. The microclimate is fantastic for people
who like to grow a diversity of fruit. Although before you grow any fruit trees, no matter where
you’re living, always check that the microclimate is adapted. I frequently, at the Master Gardener
exhibit, drag out the Sunset Western Garden book and ask people, “Do you have this?” And if
you don’t, you can check it out at any good library and tell them that this book divides the
western portion of the United States into twenty-four different micro zones. And I open the map
and we can usually identify where they’re living, and at least before they go away, I can tell
them, “Oh, you open up Sunset Garden book, and you want to look at what apple varieties grow
in your microclimate, look for this number on the microclimate.” Because, unfortunately, as a
Master Gardener I’ve had people tell me they have purchased certain fruit trees, certain varieties,
and I ask, “Oh, where are you gardening?” And I have to tell them, “That variety is not adapted
to your microclimate. It’s not going to thrive.”
And I even had a personal situation. Years ago, there was a new variety of—I’ve forgotten
whether it was, um, a peach or a nectarine—and it came out—it was supposed to be okay for
zone 24, close to the coast in southern California. And the next year, after I’d bought it that year,
the next year they said “Sorry. We made a mistake. It’s further inland that it’s adapted to.” So, I
dug up the tree, had a fellow Master Gardener who lived further inland and said “Would you like
13
�this tree? Because I bought this under the belief that it was going to thrive, and now they’ve
changed what they’ve recommended.”
Karasik: Right.
Graham: So, it is critical to do your research first to be successful in gardening. And we don’t
want you wasting water, putting water on varieties of plants that are not adapted to your
microclimate, whether it’s fruit trees or just ornamentals.
Karasik: That is so important. So—
Graham: Especially with water being super critical now.
Karasik: Absolutely, which will be another interesting aspect to look at when future generations,
uh—what that’s going to be like. Do you—So, was your husband involved in the Master
Gardeners too? Or then did you—you didn’t work, uh, when you had your son.
Graham: Right.
Karasik: And then what–what did he do? (Carol looks puzzled at the question) What was his
work? Did he st—
Graham: My–my husband’s work?
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Well, he continued to work for the Lockheed Marine Biological Research.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Um, now he wasn’t involved directly in Master Gardeners, but I must say that, uh, there
were frequently times when I would have a long day at a Master Gardener exhibit, um, like you
experienced at the Encinitas EcoFest recently, and I’d be driving home and very often he had the
garage door open for me, ‘cuz I had told him when I went off, I hoped to be back in this time
period, and the garage door was opened. I could drive right in. And he was a great cook, so it
was wonderful because there was dinner waiting for me all ready and he really spoiled me.
(chuckles) So—
Karasik: That’s so wonderful.
Graham: —not directly in Master Gardeners but he did support me to a high degree in Master
Gardener.
Karasik: Yeah. Behind ever—huh—there’s a saying: “Behind every great man is an exhausted
woman.” (both she and Carol chuckle)
Graham: Right.
14
�Karasik: And so I think we could probably—
Graham: (nodding her head) Yes.
Karasik: —turn that around. Um, what would you say some–are some of your greatest
accompish–accomplishments in your life?
Graham: Well, reaching out to so many people at Master Gardeners has made me really feel
good in that, as I say, I want people, ideally, to have at least a little bit of a–an edible garden. So
when their kids come around and the kids have the opportunity as young gardeners to pick that
lovely tomato or bell pepper (gestures as if picking something with her right hand) or maybe it’s
a fruit—a peach or nectarine—and eat it and say, “Mmm, really good,” that they directly
understand where their food comes from.
Karasik: (whispers) Yes.
Graham: Because, while some of our food comes from the ocean and the rivers and the lakes, so
much of it comes from the good earth. And children who grow up picking the stuff from their
garden, I think, are going to realize that and makes a connection and be far less apt to pollute or
litter. ‘Cuz they understand why would you want to put pollution or litter on the ground. That’s
where your food comes from!
Karasik: Exactly. Do you feel like you’ve been successful in educating hopefully thousands of
people, because there is a lot of concern now about our food sources? And I myself just recently
got a tower garden because I want to be able to grow my own food and it seems like we might be
moving more to that. Um, you know, I don’t know if we want to get into it, but we may just want
to mention because of the—being a–a–an oral history, you know, monocropping and how all the
large corporations have taken over the farming. And so is this—Do you feel like you’ve had a
little place in there where you’ve been able to—
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: —educate.
Graham: And also sharing with people the experience. Well, there are some peaches and
nectarines I’ve enjoyed purchasing in the market, but none of them have the fantastic flavor that
my mother and I used to grow and the Panamint nectarine—that’s the one we really adore. And
some people love the Babcock peach, but that’s sweet-on-sweet. And my personal taste buds like
the sweet with tang, which the Panamint lives up to. So, you can customize better your favorites
by growing them. And of course, the macadamia! Well, the macadamia nut—what is that—
$12.99 to $19.99 a pound for the nuts in the market when you buy them. Well, you can grow
them yourself. They’re easy to grow, although heads up! (points her left pointer finger into the
air). I want to alert everybody. They are really a lot of work to crack, even if you buy the
specific macadamia cracker which I bought. But so I try to educate people as to this and—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
15
�Graham: ‘Cuz the macadamia tree was my husband’s, um—I don’t know if it was his birthday,
or his Christmas present the first year after we moved in. He wanted a macadamia.
Karasik: Nice. Well, I’m definitely going to be coming to you, because even me being over in
the far east side of North County, that is going to be different. And I’m very excited to learn
more about what you think would be best for me to plant, primarily just for me to consume.
Graham: Mm-hmm. Good.
Karasik: That’s my—And also, did you want to talk a little bit about all the different flowers that
are edibles that people don’t know about, different fl–like nasturtians [sic], for example.
Graham: I’m really not educated on that aspect. My mother wasn’t into edible flowers, and I
haven’t gone into it because I’ve been so enamored of the–the fruits, mais–mostly tree fruits.
Karasik: Sure, yeah. Pe—
Graham: And–and thornless blackberries!
Karasik: Oh!
Graham: Yes, ‘cuz I grew up with the Olallie blackberry which mother had which was delicious
but boy does that have thorns! (holds up both her hands, fingers spread wide to emphasize
prickliness of thorns)
Karasik: Really!
Graham: Decades of research and now we have thornless varieties out there.
Karasik: Oh, I didn’t know that!
Graham: So, yes. Triple crown.
Karasik: It’ll–it’ll be really interesting for botanists, for example, who might be–get to hear
these–this interview, in particular, and see how things have changed. I mean, there is certainly
the concern that California may become a desert. And we do definitely have water issues right
now. Does that, uh, take up some of your time of concern?
Graham: It is concerning. However, I tell people, “Well, um, hopefully when we get off this third
year of really severe drought here in San Diego County and people actually start to feel they can
put plants in the ground again, well, instead of putting ornamentals, why not put some edibles?
Wouldn’t that be a better use of the water?” And as I said you can also customize, so you can put
your–your edible in the variety that you couldn’t even find in the market.
Karasik: Right. Like sunchokes, Jerusalem artichokes. Those are hard to find, and very
nutritious—
Graham: Yeah.
Karasik: —for example. Well, we could certainly talk about gardening (both Graham and
Karasik chuckle). And that’s–and that was a lot of my reason for wanting to interview you,
16
�because I think this will be very interesting to, um, our descendants. I guess, uh, if there’s
anymore that you’d like to tell about what you–what like what changes you would like to see for
future generations, and if you had a chance to talk to some of these future generations, not just
around Master Gardening but just about life in general and what you’ve learned over the years,
what–what you think is most important that, uh—
Graham: Well, continuing on some of the issues that we mentioned—less lawn, and more
drought tolerant or edibles. Um, now there are some people who have a legitimate desire to have
a lawn. They have young kids who do want to play on it. But that doesn’t mean they have to
have a lawn both front and the back. And, um, after a certain length of time, maybe they want to
take the lawn out because their kids are no longer playing on it—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And cracking open the reference books, even good old Sunset Western Garden book.
And it has a plant finder section. And one of the things that it addresses there are low water use
plants.
Karasik: Drought tolerant.
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: Yes.
Graham: As well as delving through the various edibles—
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: —making sure you select the right variety for your microclimate, so you’re successful
and don’t waste water on a variety that was doomed from the start.
Karasik: Yeah. Hmm, well, we’ve just covered that so well. I think, more than—it sounds like
you’ve had a wonderful life and, of course, everything’s not perfect. There is a question here.
What are your regrets? Or what would you do over if you could. Did you want to speak to that
by chance? Or—
Graham: Well, I regret my husband passed away. My husband died.
Karasik: Yes. If you want to—
Graham: And I didn’t appreciate enough all the great cooking he used to do. Um, so now I’m
spending a whole lot more time from going to the grocery store and buying the food and
prepping the food and thinking ahead, “Okay, I have this many drumsticks. Am I going to eat
chicken this many nights, or am I going to eat some of this, and what’s in the freezer, and how
much time it takes.” ‘Cuz I’ve a terribly neglected yard. But I am enjoying the social aspect of
going out for Master Gardener exhibits.
Karasik: Yes.
Graham: Especially since my husband is gone now.
17
�Karasik: Right.
Graham: So—
Karasik: And it hasn’t been that long, so—I know that, um, my condolences and I know how that
is. We–we all have to accept that part of life. And—
Graham: Mm-hmm. I’m grateful that he did have a good quality of life up until the very end.
Karasik: Yes. And I think, too, that again that’s a lot why this oral history project is so important.
Because we don’t realize what interesting lives people have had. And it doesn’t get documented.
So, we certainly have more time. Um, here’s a couple of questions here around community that
might–might be interesting. It says “In what w–ways is your neighborhood special or has it been
unique or what are some of the favorite places in your community, and how has–how has this
area changed since you moved here? And that’s—
Graham: Yeah.
Karasik: ―a big one.
Graham: When my husband and I first moved here, we didn’t even buy groceries in Encinitas
because there were very few grocery stores, you know. This was over forty-five years ago. And
there was a grocery store we’d go right past when we were leaving that place of work. So, it
made more sense to stop there, but it wasn’t in Encinitas. And of course, I like to spend my
consumer dollars in my own community. And now we have over ten grocery stores!! I mean, in
an hour—excuse me, in a mile and a half, I can walk to four different grocery stores in my
community. And frequently I am walking because it’s checking off my exercise for the day and
checking off my eco-point for the day, ‘cuz I’m not driving my vehicle, um, and I enjoy it! And
Encinitas allows me to do this because of all the grocery stores they have, which forty-five years
ago—
Karasik: And they’re some of the finest–some of the finest grocery stores.
Graham: Nice diversity.
Karasik: Not the least expensive, by any means, but definitely some of the highest quality and
the largest diversity of what is offered.
Graham: Yes. And we have farmer’s markets.
Karasik: We do.
Graham: Two of them in Encinitas.
Karasik: Yeah. Let’s talk–let’s talk a little bit about those. Do you get to know any of those
farmers? Or—
Graham: I actually—way back when, was it Harry Stone? Don’t quote me.—who founded the
first farmer’s market in San Diego County up in Vista. He was a member of the California Rare
18
�Fruit Growers. And I’ve been an avid member of the California Rare Fruit Growers for decades.
And the idea took off and it was great.
Karasik: You know, another interview that I did, I learned that the–there is a big difference,
obviously, between an egg farm, a truck farm, and a—are you familiar with that? So, the truck
farm is the vegetables that you would then truck to the market. And then obviously the egg farm
and the chickens, because Cal State San Marcos that was a huge egg farm. And actually, on the
way over here you were telling me there was a wonderful nursery here that has now been—
Graham: Sunshine Gardens Nursery is now closed, and it was a very nice nursery for I don’t
know how many decades here.
Karasik: Mm-hmm. And now it’s–it’s–they’re making room for housing because we need that,
and–and I think all the more reason. We have community gardens here.
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: Did you want to talk a little bit about that?
Graham: I think it’s wonderful we have a community garden, quite close to the Heritage
Museum here in Encinitas. And there are people who live in condominiums or apartments and
they don’t have a yard to put a garden. So, community garden gives them wonderful opportunity.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: Um, now, I do want to encourage people, even if they don’t have a yard, to consider
possibly growing—we used to call it pot culture, but now that gives you the wrong impression—
container gardening! (laughs)
Karasik: Right.
Graham: Yes. For instance, you can grow a nice return of blackberries, pick the thornless
varieties in a fifteen-gallon pot, fifteen-gallon black plastic pot. Or you can put a more decorative
pot if you’d like and make it more decorative, and you can put it on your balcony perhaps on
your condominium or apartment. Mind that you give it full sun, etc. But, even without having a
yard, there are some edibles you can grow if you research things carefully.
Karasik: Mm-hmm. Have you found that people in your neighborhood come to you and ask you
for your advice? Or how do you—(both she and Graham chuckle) I think I’m going to be asking
you for some advice, for sure.
Graham: Well, this was an interesting first four months in the year 2022. I captured six gophers.
Now only one of them in my yard. I’m grateful for it was only one in my yard. But the other five
were in three different neighbors’ yards. And I was labeled the gopher getter. I’ve captured
gophers in other yards previous years too, but this was an especially active first four months of
the year, for some reason.
19
�Karasik: Do you think—and I might even have heard somewhere—do you think that the drought
had a lot to do with that, that they might even be seeking water or food, or are–are they—maybe
they’ve increased their offspring. Do we know why?
Graham: I don’t think so. I didn’t hear anything connecting those variables.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: It was just a—
Karasik: And then where do you take ‘em? When you catch them.
Graham: Well, there are no have-a-heart traps for gophers. You realize this is–(makes a gesture
with her right hand of cutting off her head and lets out a scraping sound) these are kill traps.
Karasik: Oh.
Graham: Because the gopher is not a wanted critter to release in a wild area. No. So, the traps
you’d use are kill traps for gophers.
Karasik: Hmm. Unfortunate, but necessary.
Graham: Mm-hmm. Because remember if you don’t deal with it early, the pest note that
University of California Cooperative Extension puts out on gophers, I believe it says, “In
irrigated areas, like our gardens, gophers can have up to three litters a year.” And I believe they
said the number in the litter can vary from like five to seven. So, that’s a pretty horrific number
of offspring they could produce in a year, if you don’t deal with them quickly.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And I think it was this year I was given the gopher getter title, because the one party I
trapped a gopher successfully was just put the trap in one day and the next day I had it. And she
happened to comment to her neighbor across the street, and he had a gopher, so he contacted me.
And there were these three neighbors fairly close to each other on an adjacent street, that—
Karasik: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Graham: And the first four months of the year that—bing–bing–bing.
Karasik: Hmm. Um, going back to—you’ve mentioned a couple of times. So it’s U.C. California
San Diego, because when I tried to contact you, there is a division there. Do you want to tell us a
little bit how that’s set up, ‘cuz I know you’re kind of under their umbrella. And—
Graham: Well, the Master Gardener program is a volunteer branch of the University of
California Cooperative Extension. It’s not just one university, ‘cuz sometimes people have
thought, “Oh, you’re office is at U.C.S.D.” No, no, it’s actually in the County Operations Center
in Corina Mesa.
Karasik: Mmm.
20
�Graham: And we have information that is generated from all of these universities throughout the
state. Now some of it applies directly to where we’re here in the San Diego. Another applies to
more northern California areas. But the information clearly tells you that. And of course, our tax
money is paying for some of this research, because we have a very productive agricultural
economy in California.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And the research is directed toward the agricultural, commercial aspect. But there are
spinoff bits of information that are generated that directly help the home gardener as well. So
we’re out there. As a matter of fact, if I can bend your ear, the story about the creation of the
Master Gardener program was apparently it started in Washington state. And this good-hearted
cooperative extension agent was getting a lot of calls, people having questions on their home
garden situation. But he was being paid to advise and help out the commercial growers and
farmers. And he didn’t want to be rude and not help them, but he had his plate full helping the
commercial farmers. So he got the brilliant idea. I’ll train a crew of volunteers and when I get a
home garden question I will pass the question on to them. And that’s what I was told started the
Master Gardener program. And now I’ve been told that we actually have Master Gardeners in all
fifty states.
Karasik: Oh, wow, good.
Graham: So—
Karasik: Oh, that’s great. Well, um, we’ve certainly had an interesting conversation here and if
there’s anything else that you would like to tell. We’re so appreciative of the work that you’ve
done and I can see where that’s been a really big part of your life and I’ve–I’m assuming very
rewarding—
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: —and it’s enabled you to make a lot of friends and—
Graham: And I’d like to say also I’m very pleased to volunteer for the Solana Center for
Environmental Innovation.
Karasik: Oh, that’s such a great place.
Graham: Right here in Encinitas.
Karasik: Let’s talk about that just for a little bit, because again in the future I think that will be
something that will still be here.
Graham: Yes, of course.
Karasik: And they do so many things there. Let’s talk about that a little bit.
Graham: Well, they were at the Encinitas EcoFest, right next to my Master Gardener exhibit.
And they teach many aspects and as far as gardening, composting, very important. And instead
of having that truck rumble through your neighborhood once a week and pick up the green waste
21
�in the bin, if more of us could compost on site, it would help the environment. Also, of course, if
you’ve ever gone to the nursery and priced bags of potting soil and compost, it’s not inexpensive
if you consider the number of bags you could use as an avid gardener for the year.
Karasik: And I don’t know if we always know where all that soil came from.
Graham: Well, it is nice to have control of it from your own garden and know what went into it
exactly.
Karasik: Exactly.
Graham: And while it does take a little bit of room and it does take some time, it also is a nice
excuse to get out into the fresh air in the garden.
Karasik: What do you recommend, because I know a lot of people are afraid to compost because
they think it will bring critters?
Graham: Oh, okay. When you are putting certain elements in the compost pile that you think
might accidentally bring critters like the egg shell, or the citrus peel or the avocado pits or
something, it is highly recommended that you bury that in the compost pile with a layer at least
four inches maybe even six inches of yard trimmings above it. That will basically absorb any
odors and of course it’s not recommended that you put bones in the compost pile, because that
would tend to attract critters.
Karasik: Mm-hmm. Now, will–will worms come into that? Or is a worm compost kind of a
separate approach to composting?
Graham: Well there is vermicompost in a worm bin.
Karasik: Right.
Graham: Worms will come into your compost pile.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And you give them things to eat.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: The fruit waste, like the peels and pits, etc. As well as the decomposing leaves and
twigs, etc.
Karasik: Leftover food, and lettu—greens, things like that.
Graham: Vegetables and fruits leftover.
Karasik: Yeah. Yeah.
Graham: Not meat. Of course.
Karasik: Right, right.
22
�Graham: Not meat or bugs.
Karasik: Yeah.
Graham: And of course, you’ve moistened the environment in the compost pile to help it
decompose and they–worms breathe through their skin and they need a moist–yep, they actually
need a moist skin to survive. So, they are very happy to find this moist environment which offers
them perfect lodging and food buffet, moisture, yes.
Karasik: Just for my own curiosity. I’ve always been fascinated by earthworms and the fact that
you’ve–that you’ve–they’re w–w–one of the few living beings where you can cut off their head
and they’ll grow another one. Is that correct?
Graham: No. that’s not—
Karasik: They’ll grow, maybe not their head, but the back end or—
Graham: No.
Karasik: That’s not true?
Graham: Um, too many people—I mean, depending on the amount you cut off at the tail end,
they might survive.
Karasik: Not intentionally, obviously.
Graham: Yeah. But if you accidentally cut one in two, some people have this misconception that
you’ll get two worms. No. It’ll die.
Karasik: Aw. I had that misconception.
Graham: Yeah. That’s a popular—
Karasik: And they are so critical.
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: They are so critical. But probably one of the most or when we look at–at soil. Are you
familiar with soil regeneration and some of the ways that they’re trying now to—because so
much of our soil has been depleted? Do you get involved in that, or are you just—
Graham: Well, with the compost pile, you’re helping replenish.
Karasik: mm-hmm.
Graham: And when you think about it, okay. The nutrients it takes for let’s say your peach tree to
make peaches, it has to make leaves. Well, some of that is from the very leaves that came,
matured, off the tree. So, you’re recycling it in the compost pile and putting it back underneath
the tree when you’re putting some compost into the soil under your peach tree.
Karasik: Right. Wonderful. That’s–that’s a good point as well.
23
�Graham: Mm-hmm.
Karasik: Yeah.
Graham: So you’re just basically recycling the nutrients as opposed to chucking them into the
trash and hauling them off to the land fill.
Karasik: Yeah.
Graham: And not even chucking them into the green bin and having them hauled off. But, at
least when it goes to the green facility at Miramar, it gets repurposed. But it’s more.
Karasik: Have you ever visited that place?
Graham: Oh yes! It was fantastic. This was decades ago.
Karasik: That would be a wonderful tour.
Graham: There was a field trip—I don’t remember if it was Master Gardeners or the Encin—the
Solana Center sponsored the field trip decades ago. It was so much fun! And wow, it was
interesting.
Karasik: I’d like to do that. I’d also like to visit one of these desalination plants and see how
they’re doing that.
Graham: Oh, yes.
Karasik: Because that seems to be the future. Now, that’s another point.
Graham: I was able to take a tour of that too. That was Solana Center that hosted that decades
ago.
Karasik: Oh, did they?
Graham: From up the street at the Carlsbad Desalinization Plant.
Karasik: Yes! I might ask them if they know how somebody can do that now. One other thing I
wanted to ask about the Solana Center. I had seen something where you can get some buckets
and take it home, and so you can kind of get compost from them, or maybe a starter? How does
that work?
Graham: Um, you pay a fee. I—don’t quote me because I’m not sure exactly how much it is.
You get a bucket to take home, and you put your fruit and vegetable waste in it, and also bones
and—in other words, if you’re not composting you put these materials in there.
Karasik: Mm-hmm.
Graham: And it has some bokashi in it, which ferments it.
Karasik: Is bokashi an organism that breaks it down?
Graham: It’s a—
24
�Karasik: What is that?
Graham: —it’s more like a chemical—
Karasik: Oh, okay.
Graham: —that pickles it. I think it’s what they compare it to.
Karasik: Okay.
Graham: And you can take that back, and then you can get some finished compost as well. So—
Karasik: Oh, that’s how—
Graham: —but you’ll–you’ll want to call the Solana Center and ask for the details.
Karasik: Right. Yes. I’ve been over there and they were very supportive to us—
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: —for the EcoFest as well.
Graham: Yes.
Karasik: Well, I just want to thank you for your time. And this has been a really interesting and
educational interview. And you have definitely had a wonderful life, and I sense the fact that you
will be around for quite a while and helping a whole lot more people. And I’m so happy to know
you and really appreciate your time, and what you’re going to offer for future generations.
Graham: Well, thanks for this opportunity to reach out to people.
Karasik: Oh, absolutely. You’re so welcome. So again we’re—actually, I don’t know if I
mentioned this. We’re at the San Dieguito Heritage Museum which is here in Encinitas and I
really wish that people could see that, although they’ll have the opportunity to do that, you know,
locally. But the history here at this particular museum is incredible, as well. So, would encourage
people to come out if they happen to listen to this and we thank them also for the opportunity to
use their equipment, and hope that this will be a good video. So, thank you very much.
Graham: You’re very welcome.
Karasik: And we will finish here.
25
�GLOSSARY
Babcock peach (pg. 15)
Biophaline (pg. 7, 8)
California Rare Fruit Growers (pg. 18-19)
Carlsbad Desalinization Plant (pg. 24)
County Operations Center [Corina Mesa] (pg. 20)
EcoFest (pg.1, 6, 10, 14, 21, 25)
Glyphosate (pg.6)
Heritage Museum (pg. 19)
Integrated Pest Management (pg.3, 4)
Johns Hopkins University (pg. 11)
Kirkcaldy, Scotland (pg. 12)
Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility (pg. 10, 14)
Master Gardener(s) (pg. 1-4, 6, 12-15, 17, 20-21, 24)
Panamint nectarine (pg. 15)
Polychaete (pg. 7, 8)
San Dieguito Heritage Museum (pg. 25)
San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station [Plant One] (pg. 7, 8, 10, 12)
Solana Center for Environmental Innovation (pg. 21, 24-25)
Stone, Harry (pg. 18)
Sunset Western Garden book (pg. 13, 17)
Sunshine Gardens Nursery (pg. 19)
Truck farm (pg. 19)
University of California Cooperative Extension (pg. 12, 20, 21)
Vermicompost (pg. 22)
26
�
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Graham. Carol. Interview transcript, November 4, 2022.
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Carol Graham is a Master Garderner. She has a Bachelor's degree in Zoology and began her career working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One. After its closure, she enrolled to become a Master Gardner volunteer that was sponsered through the University of California Cooperative Extension program. The Master Gardner program is dedicated to distributing information for an environmentally-responsible home and garden. She has been a Master Gardner since 1983 and participates in various events such as EcoFest. She is very passionate about the study of insects, pest management, composting, and protecting the environment from pesticides.
This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos.
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Carol Graham
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Suzy Karasik
Melissa Martin
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2022-11-04
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Crops -- Diseases and pests -- Biological control
Gardening -- California -- San Diego County
Master gardeners -- California -- San Diego County
Organic farming
San Diego State University
San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station (Calif.)
University of California (System). Cooperative Extension
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Encinitas (Calif.)
North San Diego County (Calif.)
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Community history
North County Oral History Initiative
Women's experience
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Robert Sheehan
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Thao Ha
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gang violence
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5.4 Oral history of Thao Ha, April 19, 2022 SC027-21 1:27:24 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Education Gangs -- Texas -- Houston Mira Costa College -- California -- Oceanside Refugees -- Vietnam Transitions (Program) Victims of violent crimes gang violence Thao Ha Robert Sheehan mp4 HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.mp4 1:|17(4)|30(1)|39(3)|50(1)|63(17)|75(3)|94(15)|109(3)|123(2)|136(1)|150(5)|157(9)|167(11)|180(4)|193(7)|203(4)|211(13)|221(4)|234(1)|246(1)|256(5)|269(2)|279(11)|291(3)|304(10)|314(8)|322(14)|335(2)|347(13)|360(13)|372(8)|381(10)|393(10)|406(5)|417(6)|427(2)|436(11)|445(16)|454(6)|463(2)|472(6)|484(14)|494(11)|507(3)|518(8)|529(10)|538(4)|544(14)|561(4)|571(16)|583(4)|601(7)|612(14)|625(18)|639(2)|650(7)|663(1)|674(13)|693(4)|705(8)|717(12)|727(14)|738(9)|750(6)|758(1)|769(2)|777(9)|789(5)|800(3)|810(5)|819(13)|831(3)|839(8)|849(4)|859(14)|870(13)|879(8)|888(14)|900(3)|910(2)|919(11)|928(16)|938(2)|951(13)|962(11)|972(15)|982(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e0bc9bd3a81619c640e7bc9fc529dc61.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction/ Childhood Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, “Oh my God, it must have been so scary.” (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, “Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives” by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Thao Ha discusses her early childhood. She was born in Vietnam and recounts the story of how she fled the country at the fall of Saigon as a toddler with her parents. She explains that they were processed into the United States as refugees and settled in San Antonio, Texas. HoChi Minh City ; refugees ; Saigon ; San Antonio (Tex.) ; Vietnam ; Vietnamese family 403 Family background/ Parents’ occupations Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or…? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, “How come you weren’t a pilot when you were already a pilot?” And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, “Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.” And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, “Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.” Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Thao Ha discusses her family’s background. She has two younger sisters and one younger brother. Their family also moved around often for their father’s work, and they have lived in San Antonio, TX, Knoxville, TN, Cedar Rapids, IA, and Houston, TX. Her family still resides in Houston. Thao also describes her parents’ occupations. Her father was a pilot in the South Vietnamese Air Force, but he had lost his log books when they fled to the U.S. In order to support his family, her father became a mechanic in the U.S. Thao explains that this is part of the refugee experience. She also explains that her mother was a seamstress who sewed t-shirts for babies in hospitals who was later contracted by an ophthalmologist to sew surgical eye patch garters. Her parents later collaborated with the ophthalmologist and worked together to create surgical eye patches that contained metal parts. Houston (Tex.) ; Mechanic ; pilot ; refugees ; Seamstresses ; Vietnamese family 845 Growing up in a Vietnamese community Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, “Go back to my own country,” you know, “Go back to your country.” And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I—I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, “Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,” and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Thao Ha discusses her experience growing up in a Vietnamese community in Houston, TX. She explains that Houston was an area in which secondary migration occurred for Vietnamese refugees due to job opportunities and affordable housing. Thao describes feeling connected to her community in Houston ; she had many Vietnamese friends in school, she spoke the language at home, and there were Vietnamese stores in town. As a refugee, however, Thao did also experience bullying and racism from other children in her community. It was also during this time that Thao began associating with other kids who had formed gangs. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; refugees ; Vietnamese community ; Vietnamese family ; Vietnamese-American gangs 1137 Relationship with sisters / Gang affiliations in Houston, TX Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, “Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,” right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was—you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you’re in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, “Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,” and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, “They looked like gangsters,” and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, “Oh my God! We know him,” but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Thao Ha discusses the responsibilities of being the eldest child in an immigrant household. She felt that there was a lot of pressure placed on her to set a good example for her younger siblings and to ensure their safety. Thao also explains the culture of gang affiliation for immigrant youth and teenagers. In Houston, Thao describes that gang affiliation was needed as a means for protection against non-Vietnamese teenagers. She further describes her teenage years living in Houston and her experience with friends and family in gangs. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; Refugees ; Vietnamese family ; Vietnamese-American gangs 1921 School years Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, “I did this like three years ago.” (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, “Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now.” So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, “Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.” And my parents were like, “Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?” And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, “Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.” And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don’t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, “Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I’ll just figure it out later and take the test.” Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it—or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking “Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.” And going more towards thinking “Well maybe I'll just get a job,” because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, “I don't know what I'm going to do.” And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, “That's it. I'll just go get a job.” And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, “Okay,” something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, “Okay, that's it, it's time to—" ; it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, “Okay if I go back to school,” which I definitely wanted to do, “I will study something that I want to.” And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, “Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!” And I thought, “Well, I will study law,” so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, “Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,” and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Thao Ha first discusses her middle school and high school years. She recounts excelling in many subjects, but that fighting with students and truancy caused other problems while in the school system. She graduated from high school Cum Laude but describes struggling to find her path in college. Many of her friends were still involved in gang activity, and she did not know where she belonged. She explains that she decided to leave college and find a job to support her family. She also explains that after being shot in a pool hall and seeing more friends enter the prison system, she decided to go back to college and studying sociology. Crime ; Education ; Refugee ; Sociology ; Vietnamese-American gangs 2475 Getting shot at a pool hall Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie’s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, “Okay, we got to get out of here,” right? “We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.” So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, “Okay, we got to get out of here!” And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, “There's a fight outside. We got to go!” So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, “Bang, bang, bang.” We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, “Why does my arm hurt so bad?” And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, “Fuck, I got shot!” right? And everybody's like, “What, what, what!?” And so, I'm like, “Drive to hospital!” Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking “What just happened?” And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe just what happened.” And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, “Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.” And I was just like, “Ow!” It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, “No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this.” Like, “If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here.” I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, “Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,” right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, “Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.” Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, “Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter.” I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, “Oh, you see that?” And so, he was pointing, and he said, “That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm.” And then he goes, “Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.” So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He’s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, “So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.” So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, “Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.” And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents “Two millimeters.” That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, “Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up.” Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, “Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!” You know you watch on TV and it's like, “Let me know if you're cold!” Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, “I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it’s just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again.” Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, “What are your goals?” I was like, “Well I want to play volleyball again.” And he was like, “I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work.” Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Thao Ha describes in further detail the night she was shot at an American pool hall called Slick Willie’s. She recalls many Vietnamese at the pool hall that night when a fight broke out. She explains that she was shot as she and her friends were escaping the pool hall. She also describes her experience in the hospital and speaking with police. Thao also describes how being shot affected her volleyball career. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; pool halls ; refugee ; Vietnamese-American gangs 3230 Studying sociology in university Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, “I will write with my right hand!” So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, “Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything,” right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, “People study Vietnamese people?” It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. “Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.” So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, “Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.” And I will never forget. She's like, “Oh, I know you.” she's like, “You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?” And I said, “No,” and she said, “Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!” And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, “Wow! I feel so special.” So, I said, “Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.” (laughs) And she was like, “You want to go to law school, huh?” So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, “Do you want to work eighty hours a week?” And I was like, “No.” And she said, “Well, you know that’s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.” She was like, “Have you ever thought about being a professor?” I said, “No.” She said, “Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,” right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, “Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.” And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, “How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.” And I'm like, “Oh, wow.” So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, “I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side.” So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, “Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!” And I'm like, “Oh my God.” (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, “Your daughter should be a professor.” And my parents like, “Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.” (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Thao Ha recounts her decision to study sociology in college. Thao describes how her sociology professor mentored her in undergrad, provided her with research opportunities, and influenced her to go into teaching. Education ; Immigration studies ; refugee ; Sociology ; Teaching 3538 Decision to go into teaching / Dichotomy of identities Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. “Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.” And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, “If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.” So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, “Oh man, that's really what I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,” and my parents were like, “Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.” (laughs) “You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?” That's my mom, right? Like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.” So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, “Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.” So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, “Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.” So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like “I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.” I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Thao Ha continues to discuss her decision to go into teaching. She also describes the dichotomy of her identity while in graduate school. She explains that she felt that she had to let go of her past while earning her PhD. Once Thao began working with individuals in the California prison system, however, she began to reconcile her past and present identities. Crime ; Education ; Identity ; Immigration studies ; refugee ; Refugee Studies ; Sociology ; Teaching ; Vietnamese-American gangs 3936 Future of the judicial system Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, “We should just do away with prisons,” prison abolition, like, “We don't need prisons in society.” And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, “Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society.” So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Thao Ha discusses the future of the judicial system. She explains her complicated opinions regarding the prison abolition movement and how she instead supports abolishing for-profit prisons and lifetime sentences for youth. Crime ; For-profit prisons ; Prison ; Prison abolition movements ; Refugee ; Wrongful convictions 4440 Family experiences with wrongful convictions/ Thoughts on reduced sentencing Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, “Oh, you did that and so you get out,” but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, “Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,” people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Thao Ha discusses her family experiences with wrongful convictions in the prison system. She explains how a wrongful conviction can turn into a life sentence and how some punishments do not fit the crime. Thao also explains how reduced prison sentencing can depend on each state’s law. She discusses the different reduced sentencing laws in California and Texas. California ; Crime ; Prison ; Reduced sentencing ; Refugee ; Texas ; Wrongful convictions 4814 The value of education/ Experience teaching at a community college Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don’t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, “Well, I learned that on TikTok.” Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, “Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!” I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, “Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?” And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, “I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.” And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, “I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.” So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Thao Ha reflects on the value of education. She understands that a university education is expensive for many students and wants to see education become more accessible. She also discusses her career as a professor in the community college system and explains her passion for connecting with her students in a close-knit learning environment. Community college ; Education ; Refugee ; Sociology ; Teaching Oral history Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at Mira Costa College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I' ; m here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that' ; s where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they' ; ve shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they' ; re in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn' ; t really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' ; lens, I' ; m like, " ; Oh my God, it must have been so scary." ; (laughs) And, she' ; s got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn' ; t crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that' ; s the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That' ; s incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn' ; t had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, " ; Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives" ; by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you' ; re running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father' ; s kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he' ; s just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that' ; s when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that' ; s where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family' ; s still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or--? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, " ; How come you weren' ; t a pilot when you were already a pilot?" ; And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn' ; t they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren' ; t, that' ; s something they didn' ; t take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, " ; Well, I can' ; t be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do." ; And they just, you know I think that' ; s part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' ; generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can' ; t be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you' ; re alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don' ; t think he has any--I' ; m not sure, that was a good question. I' ; ll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it' ; s one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren' ; t really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they' ; re newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here' ; s where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, " ; Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter." ; Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn' ; t want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That' ; s really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there' ; s a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it' ; s not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn' ; t have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, " ; Go back to my own country," ; you know, " ; Go back to your country." ; And just the things that you' ; ll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I--I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, " ; Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied," ; and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that' ; s when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that' ; s like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there' ; s a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there' ; s a dichotomy. There' ; s the Thao at home. And then there' ; s the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that' ; s a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they' ; ll tell you like, " ; Oh, it was okay for them to go out together," ; right? Like if there' ; s three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you' ; d have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn' ; t get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I' ; m going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it' ; s kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny' ; s not the right word, but it' ; s interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there' ; s an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don' ; t see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there' ; s another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you' ; re in the math club or if you' ; re in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there' ; s fun in that as well, but there' ; s also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you' ; re not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I' ; m sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don' ; t want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was--you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn' ; t necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you' ; re in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad' ; s youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he' ; s a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he' ; s in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who' ; s his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That' ; s the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you' ; re constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you' ; re in a social setting who you don' ; t want to mess with, and who you don' ; t want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don' ; t know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, " ; Oh, I fallen and I can' ; t get up," ; and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they' ; d hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they' ; d rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That' ; s how he described them, " ; They looked like gangsters," ; and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn' ; t do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America' ; s Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI' ; s most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America' ; s Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, " ; Oh my God! We know him," ; but we didn' ; t know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that' ; s kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I' ; d kind of like to circle back to your education. As you' ; re going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you' ; re doing well in school. But those two don' ; t seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I' ; m like, " ; I did this like three years ago." ; (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn' ; t learning. And I came home and I told my dad, " ; Hey, I don' ; t know, dad. Like, I don' ; t know what you want from us. I' ; m sorry that we messed up. And I' ; m sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I' ; m getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I' ; m in the eighth grade now." ; So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don' ; t have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, " ; Oh, I' ; d love to be like a journalist or an author." ; And my parents were like, " ; Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?" ; And I didn' ; t know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, " ; Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something." ; And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn' ; t let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don' ; t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, " ; Oh, they don' ; t take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don' ; t have to go to class. I' ; ll just figure it out later and take the test." ; Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn' ; t work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn' ; t enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it--or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking " ; Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me." ; And going more towards thinking " ; Well maybe I' ; ll just get a job," ; because I need to help my friends figure out what they' ; re doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, " ; I don' ; t know what I' ; m going to do." ; And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn' ; t do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, " ; That' ; s it. I' ; ll just go get a job." ; And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, " ; Okay," ; something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, " ; Okay, that' ; s it, it' ; s time to--" ; it' ; s a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that' ; s when I decided, " ; Okay if I go back to school," ; which I definitely wanted to do, " ; I will study something that I want to." ; And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, " ; Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We' ; re just happy you' ; re alive!" ; And I thought, " ; Well, I will study law," ; so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, " ; Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer," ; and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there' ; s a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie' ; s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there' ; s problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, " ; Okay, we got to get out of here," ; right? " ; We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now." ; So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We' ; re like, " ; Okay, we got to get out of here!" ; And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I' ; m recounting this because it' ; s about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would' ; ve left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, " ; There' ; s a fight outside. We got to go!" ; So, we' ; re running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we' ; re running to the car, that' ; s when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we' ; d already heard, " ; Bang, bang, bang." ; We' ; d already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that' ; s when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don' ; t know if you' ; ve never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don' ; t know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn' ; t even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that' ; s kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, " ; Why does my arm hurt so bad?" ; And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I' ; m like, " ; Fuck, I got shot!" ; right? And everybody' ; s like, " ; What, what, what!?" ; And so, I' ; m like, " ; Drive to hospital!" ; Because we can' ; t call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I' ; m in the car backseat and my sister' ; s trying to tie a tourniquet and I' ; m sitting here thinking " ; What just happened?" ; And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It' ; s like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that' ; s when I was like, " ; Oh my God, I can' ; t believe just what happened." ; And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, " ; Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that." ; And I was just like, " ; Ow!" ; It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn' ; t as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that' ; s what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, " ; No, I don' ; t want to, I don' ; t want to continue this." ; Like, " ; If you go shoot up that guy, they' ; re going to come back, shoot us up. Let' ; s just end this here." ; I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn' ; t want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, " ; Let' ; s just end here. I' ; m going to trust the legal system. I' ; m going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen," ; right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That' ; s intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, " ; Oh, she' ; s super lucky. She' ; s super lucky." ; Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, " ; Look at her X-ray. There' ; s bullet matter, there' ; s bone matter, there' ; s tissue matter." ; I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, " ; Oh, you see that?" ; And so, he was pointing, and he said, " ; That' ; s her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would' ; ve had to amputate her arm." ; And then he goes, " ; Oh, you see that? That' ; s her nerve." ; So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He' ; s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He' ; s like, " ; So we' ; re going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don' ; t know how much mobility she' ; ll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she' ; ll have her arm. We won' ; t have to cut it off and she' ; ll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back." ; So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, " ; Oh, okay. So, I' ; m lucky to be alive. I' ; m lucky not to have amputation. I' ; m lucky to have, not paralysis." ; And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don' ; t know why, but I remember him telling my parents " ; Two millimeters." ; That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, " ; Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don' ; t screw it up." ; Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It' ; s like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You' ; re so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she' ; s freaking out. She' ; s like, " ; Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!" ; You know you watch on TV and it' ; s like, " ; Let me know if you' ; re cold!" ; Right? Like, because somebody' ; s dying. And I was like, " ; I don' ; t think I' ; m dying sis[ter], I think it' ; s just my arm. But I don' ; t know if I' ; m going to ever play volleyball again." ; Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, " ; What are your goals?" ; I was like, " ; Well I want to play volleyball again." ; And he was like, " ; I can' ; t promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It' ; s going to be how hard you work." ; Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I' ; m missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn' ; t have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That' ; s good to hear. So, you' ; ve got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there' ; s a lot of scar tissue in there. It' ; s not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it' ; s not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there' ; s just too much scar tissue. So, it can' ; t bend and it gets sore more easily. There' ; s been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it' ; s all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I' ; m assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, " ; I will write with my right hand!" ; So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there' ; s one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I' ; m being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, " ; Oh gosh, if I could just change one person' ; s life, it would mean everything," ; right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I' ; m like, " ; People study Vietnamese people?" ; It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. " ; Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay." ; So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that' ; s why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there' ; s something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, " ; Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you' ; re my sociology professor." ; And I will never forget. She' ; s like, " ; Oh, I know you." ; she' ; s like, " ; You' ; re a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?" ; And I said, " ; No," ; and she said, " ; Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!" ; And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, " ; Wow! I feel so special." ; So, I said, " ; Well, I came to ask you if there' ; s any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school." ; (laughs) And she was like, " ; You want to go to law school, huh?" ; So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, " ; Do you want to work eighty hours a week?" ; And I was like, " ; No." ; And she said, " ; Well, you know that' ; s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I' ; m just giving you a reality." ; She was like, " ; Have you ever thought about being a professor?" ; I said, " ; No." ; She said, " ; Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week," ; right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, " ; Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman." ; And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, " ; How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community." ; And I' ; m like, " ; Oh, wow." ; So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, " ; I want you to present your paper at a conference. It' ; s going to be at the college, and you' ; ll be in front of hundreds of people, but don' ; t worry, I' ; ll be there. I' ; ll be right there by your side." ; So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don' ; t know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, " ; Oh, we' ; re so proud of you. You did so well!" ; And I' ; m like, " ; Oh my God." ; (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I' ; m sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, " ; Your daughter should be a professor." ; And my parents like, " ; Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor." ; (laughs) Sheehan: It' ; s nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor' ; s Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. " ; Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor' ; s now you can get in and finish your Master' ; s in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you' ; ll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area." ; And so literally she laid out this option for me. She' ; s like, " ; If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then." ; So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, " ; Oh man, that' ; s really what I want to do. I don' ; t think I want to I go to law school anymore," ; and my parents were like, " ; Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don' ; t want to be a lawyer." ; (laughs) " ; You' ; re going to have to lie. You have to lie if you' ; re a lawyer, do you want to do that?" ; That' ; s my mom, right? Like, " ; Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom." ; So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that' ; s a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can' ; t hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I' ; m like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn' ; t what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he' ; s like, " ; Just forget about us. We' ; re not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on." ; So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn' ; t like, " ; Oh, you should totally make this your Master' ; s degree study." ; So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like " ; I' ; m not going to tell anybody that' ; s who I was. I don' ; t want them to judge me. I don' ; t want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him." ; I don' ; t tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn' ; t until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it' ; s very full circle. So that' ; s where I' ; m at now. And that' ; s kind of the work that I champion, and I' ; m not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn' ; t exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you' ; ve had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that' ; s a really good question, because there' ; s so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, " ; We should just do away with prisons," ; prison abolition, like, " ; We don' ; t need prisons in society." ; And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it' ; s very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who' ; ve done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It' ; s like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It' ; s a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there' ; s other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they' ; re out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don' ; t think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who' ; ve done long, long prison sentences. So, I' ; m not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they' ; ve done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don' ; t think that that works. There' ; s no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, " ; Well, you' ; re done. We just need to be done with you in society." ; So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that' ; s a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we' ; ve seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we' ; re dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that' ; s a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we' ; re allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it' ; s awful. I mean, let' ; s look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They' ; re not fully developed. We do stupid things when we' ; re young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would' ; ve gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would' ; ve went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there' ; s already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I' ; m in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it' ; s one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it' ; s not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let' ; s say there' ; s a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I' ; ve seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you' ; re eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you' ; re forty-eight years old. You' ; ve missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we' ; re incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there' ; s a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn' ; t really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I' ; m not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would' ; ve happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That' ; s a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn' ; t like an automatic, like, " ; Oh, you did that and so you get out," ; but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, " ; Okay, you' ; ve changed, and you' ; ve rehabilitated, and you' ; re no longer threat to society," ; people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn' ; t necessarily violent, let' ; s say you--I' ; m trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn' ; t inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you' ; re not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there' ; s been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you' ; re probably going do your full time. You' ; re not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I' ; m coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I' ; ll guess I' ; ll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you' ; d like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it' ; s 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It' ; s not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don' ; t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who' ; s twenty years old, and she' ; s like, " ; Well, I learned that on TikTok." ; Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they' ; re formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they' ; re like, " ; Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!" ; I don' ; t think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you' ; ll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That' ; s a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don' ; t mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don' ; t. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn' ; t applied to any universities yet, I didn' ; t qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, " ; Man, I' ; ve got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?" ; And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that' ; s different from university, but that' ; s also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let' ; s not discount it, given that we' ; re going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we' ; re not in person, right? But we' ; re human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can' ; t untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, " ; I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact." ; And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, " ; I' ; m going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way." ; So, there' ; s a financial benefit, there' ; s the social benefit, there' ; s the intimidation factor that is less because you' ; re not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, " ; Oh my God, it must have been so scary." ; (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, " ; Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives" ; by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or--? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, " ; How come you weren't a pilot when you were already a pilot?" ; And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, " ; Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do." ; And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, " ; Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter." ; Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, " ; Go back to my own country," ; you know, " ; Go back to your country." ; And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I--I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, " ; Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied," ; and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, " ; Oh, it was okay for them to go out together," ; right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was--you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you're in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, " ; Oh, I fallen and I can't get up," ; and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, " ; They looked like gangsters," ; and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, " ; Oh my God! We know him," ; but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, " ; I did this like three years ago." ; (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, " ; Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now." ; So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, " ; Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author." ; And my parents were like, " ; Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?" ; And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, " ; Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something." ; And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don't know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, " ; Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I'll just figure it out later and take the test." ; Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it--or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking " ; Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me." ; And going more towards thinking " ; Well maybe I'll just get a job," ; because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, " ; I don't know what I'm going to do." ; And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, " ; That's it. I'll just go get a job." ; And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, " ; Okay," ; something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, " ; Okay, that's it, it's time to--" ; it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, " ; Okay if I go back to school," ; which I definitely wanted to do, " ; I will study something that I want to." ; And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, " ; Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!" ; And I thought, " ; Well, I will study law," ; so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, " ; Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer," ; and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie's. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, " ; Okay, we got to get out of here," ; right? " ; We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now." ; So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, " ; Okay, we got to get out of here!" ; And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, " ; There's a fight outside. We got to go!" ; So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, " ; Bang, bang, bang." ; We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, " ; Why does my arm hurt so bad?" ; And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, " ; Fuck, I got shot!" ; right? And everybody's like, " ; What, what, what!?" ; And so, I'm like, " ; Drive to hospital!" ; Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking " ; What just happened?" ; And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, " ; Oh my God, I can't believe just what happened." ; And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, " ; Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that." ; And I was just like, " ; Ow!" ; It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, " ; No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this." ; Like, " ; If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here." ; I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, " ; Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen," ; right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, " ; Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky." ; Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, " ; Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter." ; I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, " ; Oh, you see that?" ; And so, he was pointing, and he said, " ; That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm." ; And then he goes, " ; Oh, you see that? That's her nerve." ; So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He's like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, " ; So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back." ; So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, " ; Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis." ; And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents " ; Two millimeters." ; That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, " ; Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up." ; Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, " ; Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!" ; You know you watch on TV and it's like, " ; Let me know if you're cold!" ; Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, " ; I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it's just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again." ; Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, " ; What are your goals?" ; I was like, " ; Well I want to play volleyball again." ; And he was like, " ; I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work." ; Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, " ; I will write with my right hand!" ; So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, " ; Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything," ; right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, " ; People study Vietnamese people?" ; It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. " ; Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay." ; So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, " ; Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor." ; And I will never forget. She's like, " ; Oh, I know you." ; she's like, " ; You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?" ; And I said, " ; No," ; and she said, " ; Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!" ; And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, " ; Wow! I feel so special." ; So, I said, " ; Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school." ; (laughs) And she was like, " ; You want to go to law school, huh?" ; So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, " ; Do you want to work eighty hours a week?" ; And I was like, " ; No." ; And she said, " ; Well, you know that's the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality." ; She was like, " ; Have you ever thought about being a professor?" ; I said, " ; No." ; She said, " ; Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week," ; right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, " ; Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman." ; And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, " ; How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community." ; And I'm like, " ; Oh, wow." ; So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, " ; I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side." ; So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, " ; Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!" ; And I'm like, " ; Oh my God." ; (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, " ; Your daughter should be a professor." ; And my parents like, " ; Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor." ; (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. " ; Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area." ; And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, " ; If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then." ; So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, " ; Oh man, that's really what I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore," ; and my parents were like, " ; Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer." ; (laughs) " ; You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?" ; That's my mom, right? Like, " ; Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom." ; So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, " ; Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on." ; So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, " ; Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study." ; So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like " ; I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him." ; I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, " ; We should just do away with prisons," ; prison abolition, like, " ; We don't need prisons in society." ; And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, " ; Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society." ; So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, " ; Oh, you did that and so you get out," ; but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, " ; Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society," ; people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don't know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, " ; Well, I learned that on TikTok." ; Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, " ; Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!" ; I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, " ; Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?" ; And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, " ; I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact." ; And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, " ; I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way." ; So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Ha, Thao. Interview April 19, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at MiraCosta College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-21
Subject
The topic of the resource
Education
Gangs -- Texas -- Houston
MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program
Refugees -- Vietnam
Transitions (Program)
Victims of violent crimes
Date
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2022-04-19
Format
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video
Creator
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Thao Ha
Contributor
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Robert Sheehan
Coverage
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Houston (Tex.)
Oceanside (Calif.)
Vietnam
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Thao Ha
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Community history
History Department internship
Immigrant experience
Women's experience