8 10 196 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Seth Stanley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gezai Berhane OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Berhane, Gezai. Interview March 29th, 2023. SC027-37 00:52:04 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos ; California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; California State University San Marcos. Student Activities ; California State University San Marcos. Greek life ; Refugees -- Eritrea ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Black experience in America Gezai Berhane Seth Stanley Video 1:|13(11)|24(17)|34(6)|45(6)|61(14)|72(13)|83(14)|95(4)|105(14)|118(16)|132(10)|144(8)|159(16)|171(14)|183(8)|197(6)|208(3)|220(15)|231(7)|249(14)|263(4)|273(7)|285(3)|301(7)|313(5)|323(10)|335(7)|346(16)|360(15)|371(17)|381(8)|395(19)|410(7)|419(6)|429(8)|442(17)|453(12)|464(16)|475(3)|486(12)|500(6)|518(4)|528(5)|539(3)|552(10)|564(8)|573(16)|588(13)|599(6)|610(17)|624(7)|640(8)|643(12) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a06b713a6fd9a626ce2c5e87acc28e76.mp4 Other video 0 Introduction and Background Seth Stanley introduces Gezai Berhane, who discusses his background as an Eritrean refugee seeking education in the USA. Additionally, Berhane discusses how he came to work for California State University San Marcos. education ; refugee 0 266 CSUSM Early Days Berhane remembers his experience at CSUSM in the early 1980s as the first graduating class. This experience contributed to his later work at the university. 0 427 Cross-Cultural Center Berhane describes the beginning stages of the Cross-Cultural Center, then known as Multicultural Programs, and it's impacts upon the CSUSM campus. Before diversity could be implemented, Berhane considered the center a symbol for future progress. This includes the foundation of future centers such as the Black Student Center or the Women and Gender Equity Center. 0 829 Memories Berhane briefly speaks about his favorite part of the Cross-Cultural Center in its early days, before speaking more in detail about his experience as an Eritrean-American. Dealing with ignorance and prejudices, Berhane illuminates the importance of diversity and inclusivity education. From his perspective, Berhane witnessed the lackluster American education and media systems that caused such ignorance. Berhane stresses that ignorance should not be blamed upon individuals, but a system-at-large. 0 1150 Impacts of the Cross-Cultural Center and CSUSM Memories of unexpected encounters in the CCC were among Berhane's memorable highlights. Beyond this, Berhane shares that he cannot necessarily separate the impacts of the CCC from CSUSM. Among the first graduating class, he had a unique experience in that he experienced CSUSM over three decades. The Cross-Cultural Center was one part of his work at the university, and considers his total experience at CSUSM impactful. 0 1397 Student Involvement and Orientation As Student Activities Director, student orientation was where Berhane stressed the importance of involvement. Berhane challenged students to stay engaged with their communities. With the Orientation Team, Berhane remembers the bonding experience of a weekend camping trip. 0 1743 Greek Life The course of Greek Life at CSUSM is detailed by Berhane. Beginning in 1993, when Greek Life was not fully recognized, when Berhane was more directly involved. 0 1957 Student Residential Life Before the main CSUSM dormitories were built, Berhane defines his role in facilitating student residential life at leased apartments. Berhane also discusses memories of involving his family in his work, in addition to perceiving careless waste. Berhane offers his perspective as an Eritrean refugee on American consumerism. 0 2245 Thirty Years at CSUSM Berhane and his family lived in San Marcos and bore witness to the development of the city and university. Berhane considers this experience to have given him life. He is beyond grateful for this experience, and instilled this love for knowledge in his children. 0 2499 Student Center Coexistence Berhane refuses to compare or contrast student centers against one another. He considers every center has its individual purpose which changes over time. Beginning in 1992, Berhane was passionate about providing space for those in need. As a Black student, he recalls the desire for a Black student club. This experience informed his later work to provide services to an ever-evolving student body. The importance of centers / service providers reaching students is also discussed. 0 2834 Advice for Future Inclusivity Regarding the future, Berhane stresses vigilant attention to underserviced communities, including students of Asian descent, who do not have an identity-specific space. Berhane stresses the importance of service providers / centers reaching and engaging with students. 0 Gezai Berhane is a California State University San Marcos alumnus, where he was part of the first graduating class. Since his graduation, Berhane was a CSUSM employee until his retirement in 2021. Most recently he worked as Associate Director of Operations. In this interview, Berhane discusses his immigration journey, involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, campus Greek life, and other student centers at California State University San Marcos. Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley, and today I'm interviewing Gezai Berhane. This is for the California State University San Marcos, Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. Today is March 29th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Gezai, thank you for interviewing with me today. I'll start off with a- with some questions. To start off, could you tell us a bit about your background and what led you to become a part of the CSUSM (California State University San Marcos) community? Gezai Berhane: Well, that's a good question, and thanks for this opportunity. My background is, uh, I was born and raised in Eritrea, East Africa. I came to the United States as a refugee in 1983, so I've been here for a long time. But, um, back home when I was back home in Africa, in East Africa, I did not have an opportunity to finish high school. So, my goal, my aspiration was to at least finish high school. So, once I got the opportunity to go to school here, I tried to finish high school, but I was adult, so they say, “You can't even be here in the high school.” So, they kicked me out, but they told me, I can finish high school, uh, through something called the GED (General Educational Development test)? Something like that. And so, I did that. And then, um, I moved to San Marcos in (19)85, where California was cheaper than where I initially landed in the United States, which was South Dakota. A big difference. And so, I took advantage of the opportunity at-- enrolling at Palomar College. Uh, I did two years at Palomar College. Then I got interested more and more in school. By the time I finished Palomar College, Cal State San Marcos was coming. It was a great opportunity and I couldn't resist that. I had plans to go beyond the two-years degree because I missed four years of high school. So at least four years of high school, equivalent to me was continuously going to a four-year college. And so San Marcos came in, so I became one of the first Cal State San Marcos students in 1990. That brought a lot of opportunity actually for me as a new university, uh, starting from scratch. For me not having any other experience coming from another country and not knowing a whole lot about college, I was involving myself at Cal State San Marcos because every time they need somebody, volunteer, student assistance, do this and that. I was just trying to be as involved as I can, just, and as a result of that, after graduating 1992, among the first 1992 graduates, I was, then I got hired to, as a student, I was involved with student organizations, with Associated Students (Incorporated, i.e. student governance) and staff. So, my involvement led to a permanent position here on campus. And that first job and things like that was in the Dean of Students Office. And then by 1993, in the beginning, we were assigned a department to start a new department called Student Activities and Alumni Services. That is the root cause of the Student Life and Leadership, the Student and Residential Life (campus departments). I've been part of that since, again, I can say even though as a student, I started in 1990, I was also an employee or student assistant with the campus. So I have seen the growth of the campus from day one as a result of that-- Cross-Cultural Center, I know we'll get back to it, but that is as a result of growing departments and services to a growing population. So that's what (it) looks like a little bit on my background about who I am, as it relates to Cal State San Marcos. Stanley: And you were saying you were part of the first graduate, one of the first graduating classes of CSUSM. Could you maybe describe what the university was like in its early days? Berhane: Well, I don't know if you, if you wanna call it the university. We were taking all our classes at the, well, we used to, still refer to it, Cal State Jerome's. It was office buildings by, near the Jerome’s (furniture store) building. But luckily, SDSU (San Diego State University) had an extended classes in those areas. So, Cal Sate San Marcos didn't start it from the beginning. So there was some kind of structure as far as classrooms and things like that at Cal State Jerome's. So, all of my two years’ classes were taken there. But we graduated from the, uh, Craven Circle. We had our first graduation right there. We used the stairs, um, as a, as chairs for the guests, but we had chairs for the graduates, I was one of those. It was (a) very tight-knit community. We knew each other, the students knew each other. The faculty, staff, administrators knew each other by name, by everything, and all kinds of activities, including playing soccer with some faculty members at the Bradley Park. I mean, all kinds of stuff. Like, you know, if you were with the Dean of students, uh, you just called them by name. you as President Stacy, you were President Stacy, he’s Bill Stacy's office. Right. Because everything was just community. We knew each other. It was a community. The faculty, on the other hand, had a task to make sure that they're building a compatible, very viable university as a new university. So there was some challenge- they tried to challenge us, the students, but we were all re-entry, returners, transfers, no freshmen at the time. So, we met the challenge and exceeded the challenge. Within one year, we started Associated Students (student governance). Okay? We, I mean, a lot of things, because we were all mature returners and all of that. We met all the challenges and pa- and way beyond. So as a student, I just felt like I was so grateful for all of that opportunity. And so, my experience as a student here was great. Stanley: That's great. I love that all that does, the community and faculty knowing each other, stuff like that. Anyway, moving on to the Cross-Cultural Center, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Berhane: Okay. So this was, um, like, you know 10 years or later that the Cross-Cultural Center was implemented and, and whatnot. Uh, so the department, that the Cross-Cultural Center was under was named Student and Residential Life. We became Student and Residential Life. Just (to) give you a little bit of background, why residential life and student activities? Um, in the early, 2000s, the, the Division of Student Affairs, had a reorganization of certain departments on campus. Our department, the student, the Center for Student Involvement, which dealt with student organization, recognition leadership programs, and overseeing ASI (Associated Students Incorporated), ASI elections- was just called Center for Student Involvement. It initially was Student Activities and Alumni Services. Alumni Services split when it became, when it remained Student Activities only, we called it Center for Student Involvement, CSI. That then, like I say, as a result of the division's effort to try to reorganize the division in different departments, they brought the Residential Life and the Student Activities together. Once they brought us together, we decided to find a new name for these two departments coming together. So eventually we came up with Student and Residential Life, SRL. And so, while we were functioning on as a, an SRL, Cross-Cultural Center was added again, I mean, to that department. So we used to call it “C3.” We used to call it Multicultural Programs. I mean, C3 was the most popular name for Cross-Cultural Center. C3. And because the department, the SRL and the office that was assigned for Cross-Cultural Center were together, you just step outside, pass the bathroom, you go to the Cross-Cultural Center. It was just, again, even though we knew we were all part of one department overall, SRL. But having that we have to step outside and go and sit there and they started it with couches, not just chairs. It was just comfortable to go there and engage with the students who were there. Stanley: Do you, uh, remember any sort of activities or programs that the early Cross-Cultural program were, making happen? Berhane: I don't recall all the different, I know there is a, a big event that is, I don't know what it's called now that you do every year, but the, it was more for me, my memory in the fourth floor on Craven Hall (Administrative Building), on the fourth floor. Uh, when we were there initially it was more, okay, here is a program, a space for students to come and engage with each other and sit and relax and have a place to go to. Uh, but it has been a long time. So, I can't say I remember doing this and that with them. But I know there is something as a result of that, whatever started earlier, now there is an annual program and event that Cross-Cultural Center (inaudible). Stanley: So, um, in what ways would you say the Cross-Cultural Center has impacted CSUSM? Berhane: Well, I don't know if it is an impact to CSUSM, but I know Cal State San Marcos from the beginning has been saying diversity, the value of diversity has always been on the mission statement from day one. So the university to show that they are, you know, that being the first center for Multicultural Programs, you know, this is way before there was Black Student Center, Latino Center (Latin /x Center), Native American Center (California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center), and all of that. To say, let's start with something to at least say, call it a center for cross-cultural, you know, multicultural programs. To me, it was an indication, even though it was after many, many years of hearing the word diversity as part of our mission, serving a diverse community, all of that, to start with something like that, I think it was, a great initiative, it was. And look what happened after that. Okay, so there's Multicultural Programs. What do we do? What is next? What is next? And I think it's a great start. It helped the university start with something successful. Completion of that (Cross-Cultural Center) led to different centers, as you can see where we are right now. I think that's how I look at it, because like I say, I've been hearing the word diverse community, diversity, divers(ity), you know, our mission is to serve our population, diverse population and all of that. So I think it was a good start. So I would say it was a good experience for the university to start with something like that, as opposed to specifically, you know, as one of the different centers that we have right now. Stanley: Yeah. And you say you keep hearing the word diversity, but, would you say that the Cross-Cultural Center actually did have an impact on creating a more inclusive campus on, at CSUSM? Berhane: Well, like everything else, you know, if something’s to... to have impact or something’s to be popular or to be something, it has to be known to more people. Even though, with us through orientations, or everything else, as a campus, again it was more of a, campus with no housing on-campus, everybody was more, you live somewhere else, you come to classes and you will leave. So in the beginning, to be honest, there was not a whole lot of people using it (The Cross-Cultural Center). Uh, only a small group of people would use it. So if you’re there more often, you bring your friends. If I’m there more often, I’ll bring maybe more of my friends. But to the campus as a whole, uh, it was symbolic to have that, but I'm not sure to what, how much that impacted more student population at, you know, at that time. Stanley: Um-hmm. What is the, what's a favorite memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center, um, and how did it maybe affect you personally or professionally? Berhane: Um, I think I mentioned this before, when we talked (before the interview). It's more, um, you know, I work in the office. I’m with the students a lot. You know, many times I'm doing leadership programs, meeting with other students or with other staff members and things like that. So, to me, the Cross-Cultural Center was a place to go and do nothing but just relax. Because it was couches in there and then you're not there seriously to engage in a very, you know, other than just being there to have fun with people and just chat how students are doing. And so to me, it was a place to go, and whether it's through the Associate Directors that are working there, or whether it's through the students who are sitting there, it was a place where you can be free to chat with people and not really be doing work at that time. Uh, so that was how I looked at the center, in my memories, like saying, the couches are always in my head (laughs). Stanley: Um, looks like we have enough time for these questions. Um, since the Cross-Cultural Center has a lot to do with diversity, inclusiveness, and like being more (inaudible), I noticed when I was researching you that you've had a lot of trouble with people knowing where Eritrea is, and you're telling people, I do remember reading a newspaper article from, I think it was 1990, where you say, “Where is Eritrea? People keep asking me,” and I just wanted to say, do you still feel frustration, towards those who do not know where Eritrea is on the map? And do you still find yourself explaining where it is on a regular basis? Berhane: Well, in the beginning, before I knew how much students actually had a chance to learn about history or geography, it was, “Why don't they know,” you know? “They go to school.” We, when we were in elementary school, we knew all the different countries in the world and who the president was, what the capital city is, and then in the case of African countries when they became independent and things like that. Like it’s initiated in, I mean, like I said earlier, Eritrea when I left was at war for independence. So but, it was not covered in the mainstream media as a country fighting for independence. So when I came here, at least I had expected some people to know, because we had Americans stationed in Eritrea, you know, in the fifties, sixties, seventies. So some people should know where Eritrea is. So, for me to say it is near Sudan, it’s by the Red Sea, it’s near Ethiopia. And so in the beginning I was seriously educating people, but later on it became like, funny to me. It is like, “Where is Eritrea?” Well, the first question always is, “What's your name?” “I'm Gezai.” “Where are you from?” “I'm from Eritrea.” “Where is that?” (Stanley laughs) And then it became like, okay, I'm not gonna spend a whole lot of time educating you because you have no clue. So I'll say it's, uh, a little farther than, uh, L.A. just by Santa Barbara. Oh, okay. I haven't heard of that. (laughs) No, you wouldn't have heard of that, but I'm sure you heard of Santa Barbara. So the easiest answer for me is, yeah, just go look at it, (laughs), and there was no Google where, you know, we got the search and things like that. So it became funny afterwards because then it's like, it's just a waste of time too. And then if you say, I'm from Africa. Oh, but I've never heard of Eritrea. Well, that's too bad you never heard of Eritrea but that's where I came from. So, I think I transitioned from taking it seriously to maybe blaming a little bit more the educational system that we are not educating people even, you know, at the bachelor's level in the history class or geography. There was a, um, a map that was given, and we have countries identified here so it says, identify where these countries are, you know, on the map. People don't even know the United States, the States where they're supposed to be located! So then I realized, you know, it's not their fault. They just didn't have enough education about different countries, let alone, I mean about their country let alone about other people's countries. So I don't blame people. I don't get frustrated anymore. I'm like, “This is funny.” Depending on how I am interacting with the person, I can either say I'm in Africa or I can just say I'm near Santa Barbara, and that will take care of the business (both laugh). Stanley: Well, love that. It's (inaudible), just in one ear, out the other. Oh, that's cool- Berhane: That's good. Yeah. Stanley: Um, going back to the Cross-Cultural Center, you said that you would spend a lot of time just having fun in there. Could you recall a time with a specific person or a memory inside the Cross-Cultural Center that you remember fondly? Berhane: I think it was more with the second associate director or the first associate directors, and not necessarily with the students, because the names of the students, again, twenty years later, I'm getting too old to remember all of that, even though I can see their faces. It's harder to recall their names right now. But I think it's more the interaction with, um, unscheduled interaction with whether it’s with the associate director, or students who are regular. We used to call it regular students, but to be specifically telling you about individual students, it would be very hard for me. And I'll be lying to you and I don't wanna do that. Stanley: Okay. Well, uh, in what ways, uh, if any, did your involvement with the Cross Culture Center help you expand or develop as a person? And how has that impacted your career or personal life? Berhane: I mean, (laughs), as I said, as an involved person on campus, my professional and personal life as it grows, that I have gained as being part of this campus, it's enormous. It's countless, to tell you the truth, I grew up here. So Cal State San Marcos is home for me. I don't think there's a lot of other people who have started here and remained here for thirty years. Okay? I just retired in 2020-- at the end of 2021, which is thirty years later, since the university started. So the impact that grows personal and professional for me, I can't specifically try to address as a Cross-Cultural Center is, but I think my interaction with people who work at the Cross-Cultural Center, students who came to the Cross-Cultural Center, and being part of student activities. The leadership programs that this department has been planning and going, you know, whether it's going there, whether it is supporting the, uh, initial paperwork and whatnot, working with that group in general is part of my personal and professional growth. So I can't really say specifically and directly this and that. For me, it's more a, uh, the total sum of my overall experience, not just Cross-Cultural Center. Student Activities, Associated Students, the Dean of Students, the whole entire division. And in, and faculty too, as you indicated earlier. You know, if I have interactions with faculty, because we had to work with faculty members because they were supposed to be the advisor of student activity, I mean, student organization advisors, we had to work with faculty as well in doing some kind of orientation about their role and leadership programs, and how to help the student leaders and stuff. So for me, my primary function was in student activities, working with student leaders, student clubs, and organizations. So, the Cross-Cultural Center is, has been, was part of, part and parcel of Student Activities, but my main function wasn't directly that. So. But like I say, as within one department, we have orientation programs, for example. We had Greek Life, we had (to) oversee ASI (Associated Students, Inc.). All of those combined are the result of who I am, as opposed to try to, you know, narrowly say, yeah, this is how, and what the Cross-Cultural Center has left me as an impact. I don't wanna commit to that. Stanley: Let's go broader then. Berhane: Okay Stanley: Um, as a student activities director, were there any activities that you organized that you were particularly connected to or the, uh, moment on campus where you felt that you were promoting inclusiveness and diversity? Berhane: Well, I mean, a lot of the programs that we used to do from Student Activities is more... Okay, so if I notice that certain student groups that are not active, that are not really engaged, and what we used to do is go into orientations from the beginning to say, “You gotta remain active on campus.” This is, look at me, I never dreamed of working on campus or the university, ever whatsoever. You go to school, to college and you graduate, and you go look for a job somewhere else, but I'm here. So, students, you need to get engaged, you need to get involved. So, me encouraging all the new students that were coming in, or if they were here, and if I get to interact, I like to walk around and see if people are out there who would like to say hello, if they're not engaged, if they're not the student organizations. And within student organizations, if they're not taking leadership roles and things like that, I encourage people at whatever level they are. And so that's, you know, for me, I was fond of encouraging students to take leadership roles, to stay engaged, to work on campus, even at least as a student activity, and I mean as student assistants. And so for me it's more the day-to-day interactions with students, not just in generally, I mean. So, every year we know student organizations have to renew their contract every year. We have to do some leadership program trainings every year. And that's where you meet all the student leaders, and that's how you continue to engage with them and continue to advise them and continue to help them grow. And so for me, it's more, it's really hard to say yes, thirty years of experience is like to narrow it into one event or into one program. I've been part of student, I mean, ASI for example, Associated Students, (Inc.), we started with paper ballots, you know, like check-in the paper ballots. Then we moved to scantrons where you can do scantron, you (Stanley) probably don't remember. And then we had to go move up to online voting and things like that. So, you have to go through so much growth. And so, when you’re part of a lot of new engagements, new initiatives, it’s like you forget it because once you move to the next level, you just forget about that and now you're at next level. So for me, uh, like I say, it's thirty years of engaging with the students, faculty and staff, with administrators. It was a lot of the, a lot of the things that we see right now, whether it is programs through Cross-Cultural Center, or through what used to be SLL, Student Live and Leadership, now it's SLIC (both laugh), Student Leadership and Involvement (Center), something like that. SLIC, they just changed it. Um, a lot of the programs, a lot of orientation. I also worked with housing. So, housing was another area where, where you are engaged with students coming in with family, with their parents, you were engaged and things like that. And so, for me, it's just a, I was not like static in one department or in one function doing just one specific thing. I have been engaged within a lot of different things on campus. So that to me is, it makes it harder for me. It's like, as a result of me doing what specific area, this is where I am, or this is where I was, this is where I got. Is it just so much that I can say I've been a part of? And as a result, I grew up with it (laughs) and I even got retired, bro. (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. You say, that you really don't know, like what, I couldn't really go into specifics. Um, could I ask you to tell me just, just any story that you might have, of helping a student or being involved in the, on campus or anything like that? Berhane: Um, so for example, on Orientation Team. Stanley: Mm-hmm. Berhane: Orientation Team is, there's a training every year. We go camping. You go camping to Ramona or to Alpine (California) or things like that. My most memorable memories with the students is when you are going to those kinds of three, four-day trainings and camping and you are doing all kinds of crazy things in there. And so for me, my most memorable uh, fun memories are related to the orientation team going places and being trained. Things on campus, we've done so much. But when you get outta here and do other activities off campus, those were memorable. Stanley: Um, let's see here. Um, could you tell me about your involvement with Greek Life? Berhan: (laughs) Greek Life? Hmm. So when we initially started the department Student Activities in 1993, Greek life was not recognized as Greek Life. Greek life was more, you can initiate, but we are not gonna recognize you as a Greek Life organization because first of all, you have to go and communicate with the National Greek (Life) Association (National Panhellenic Conference). The campus was not a grown-up campus. And so my engagement with Greek life was more before they became Greek Life, before they became recognized, um, Greek organizations. It was more you give, they give them (pseudonyms) and we know where they're heading, but they recognized as student organizations where it's not supposed to discriminate membership based on gender and whatnot. Because as you know, Greek organizations are based on gender, kind of like the sororities, fraternities and things like that. So their names were not as Greek names. It was more a pseudo-other names. We know where they're heading, that's where they're trying and planning. But my, so in the early days when I was part of, you know, when they were part of that student organization, they were just student organizations. That's my experience with them. Once we recognized them, we started recognizing them, then the process of working with them moved to a new Greek Life advisor. And I remained with the rest of the other student organizations. So Greek Life before they became Greek Life, yes, I know who they were. I worked with them as their advisor. But once we have started to recognize them fully, then a Greek Life advisor has to come. A Greek Life advisor was hired. That's how we kind of-- we are in the same department, but me doing student organizations, these other person, Greek life leadership programs, all of us. And then orientation, and then Cross-Cultural Center, you know, all coming from within this department. Stanley: Um, you mentioned that, uh, they had to use pseudonyms instead of real Greek names. I was wondering if you could remember any of the names. Berhane: I can't. I can't. I'm sorry. I mean, we have to go back to the, the good old days. Um, we had, you know, documents. I don't have any of the documents, but if you wanna go search what the earlier, earlier student organizations... You kind of, you can find it in the (19)93, 94, 95 years, what student organizations were. I think some of that list might be still in student activities or SLIC or ASI might have that list as well. But it was, like I say, it is very hard for me to remember all of those. But it was three or four different student organizations. Stanley: Well, thank you for the reference at least. Um, you talked about, about how you were involved with student residential life, um, in the same vein as being working earlier in CSUSM. How was residential, residential life in CSUSM earlier on? Berhane : So before the, uh, UVA (University Village Apartments), the university village was built, the campus had leased apartments in what we call it, uh, the islands apartments. The Islands Apartments. Out of many of the apartments, the university leased several buildings and rooms. So we used to house students. And so even though I was working still in Student Activities, the Director of Student Activities was also overseeing the, uh, of campus housing. We called it the off-campus housing initiative. And so I was, I happened to be the other person also to help with that. So it was, again, off campus, the Islands Apartments. It's off of Wood, you know, in San Marcos, if you are familiar with San Marcos, uh, Twin Oaks (Road) going east, there is the golf course. Right across the golf course. There's Woodward. Woodward is a street. So I think they changed the name, but it used to be called the Islands Apartment. And so even though we were not, nobody was resident in there from us, the staff members, we were there to support students. It was, I was part of that. And that's pretty much so. And then once we build the UVA, the University Village, then everybody new has to take over. Uh, even though to this day, the Dean of Students where I worked overseas housing, all housing. So the directors of the on-campus housing, I think they also reported to the Dean of Students. And so, me remaining in, within the Dean of Students, under the Dean of Students kind of gave me an opportunity to really engage in work or move in, move out and things like that. But my experience with housing started with off-campus housing, and I continued to also do a list of off-campus housing. Um, so it still is in existence, I think. Stanley: Sorry, I keep, I keep asking you, but, uh, do you have any sort of (Berhane laughs) say sort of story or memorable moment in those residential, like when you were helping people move in or move out or stuff like that? Berhane: Yeah, it's just, so maybe a fun memories is where, you know, I live very close to them. And so if I take my kids with me and have my kids in there and, uh, see where, you know, this is for students, college students, I think for me it's more like my whole family was involved in things like that wherever I go, whether it's an event here. But fun memories with off campus housing, I mean, there was a lot of stuff people throw away and things like that. It’s like, you know, there's a lot. And for me, with my background from Africa. Like, there's a lot of people who could use all of those things. Things that are being thrown away. And it just-- things that I can think as like memories, okay, they're going throw the mattress to the trash, I mean, throwing it, oh wow, (laughs), somebody could have used that one. Uh, things like that. But I mean, in engaging specifically with individual students to say, I know so and so, so and so, is not there yet. It's not there anymore. (laughs) It's not there. Like the fact that I can remember the Islands Apartment because it was the initial apartments. We had students who lived there, you know, the residents of, uh, you know, a subleased apartment, but we were administering it and things like that. I think those things, I can see the apartments and the people, some people, but not a, uh, not a whole lot of memory of individuals. Stanley: Um, how, how has seeing CSUSM grow over the years impacted you, and your life around the CSUSM community? Berhane: Ahh. You know, I indicated earlier, I came to San Marcos when San Marcos was really a, uh, a mobile home community, a retirement community. When there was no stop signs or four, you know, four-way stops. It was just, you go from one place to another with no stop and five minutes was enough to get you from where you are to where you need to go, where you want to go. The fact that for thirty some years right now, I've seen the growth of San Marcos in general as a community, to where we are right now. It's very hard for me to believe, to tell you the truth. It's just very hard for me to believe. So, the impact is from this small community, retirement community, a neat community to the kind of growth that you see-- even when we moved here (from CSU Jerome’s campus) in 1992, we only had, what, four buildings? This building (Kellogg Library), Commons, Academical Hall, Science Hall. That was it. That was it. It was just fine. It was nice. Now to see where we are, even though in, you know, in (inaudible) there was, uh, something called, “in twenty-five years Cal State San Marcos is supposed to have grown to have up to 25,000 students.” Well, for different reasons that didn't happen. Economy and whatnot and whatnot. But for me, I like the fact that it has grown. So my kids can go to the schools where they went to. Richland (Elementary School), Woodland (Park Middle School), Mission Hills (High School). But those things, well Mission (High School) was not there. I mean, all the growth for me to be able, instead of going (to) San Diego State to be able to finish in San Marcos, I had benefited a lot to be part of it. I mean, extra lucky to be working in here instead of San Diego or moving to other kinds of states or other cities. San Marcos in general, as a community, as a university, gave me life. Life. Do you know, life? Life. It gave me life. So for me, it's beyond, I'm beyond grateful for the impact that Cal State San Marcos. The fact that Cal State San Marcos, when it came time, the place, were everything, I raised three kids in San Marcos who all three of 'em went to like, oh, I told you Richland, Woodland, and then went to college. None of them came here (CSUSM) ‘cause Daddy works here (laughs). So they had to go to different states. But, um, but they knew where, what my expectations of them, they knew they were part of, I was part of this. And they knew they were not just going to finish high school and not go to college. So they all did at least their four, the four-year degree. So for me, it is life. My experience, the people that I come to know here at the university, the faculty, staff, students, it gave me life. I'm telling you, I don't know where I would've been if it wasn’t for Cal State San Marcos. And the whole general San Marcos, the whole area. So I'm very, very grateful. Stanley: That's, that's incredible. Um, yeah, it's just, it's almost like a, it's become like a campus town at this point now. Berhane: Oh my God. Oh my gosh. I mean, when I was a student, there was no parking fees or anything (laughs). Now I have (to) pay, like an hour. You pay my job, just leave me (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. There's a train that runs along now. Berhane: That's a different story (laughs). That's a different story, man. Stanley: Getting back, uh, as we're winding down, um, I know that you had, you were involved with the Black Student Union and Black Student Center. How would would you say that pro, those programs and that, what's the word, uh, correlates or stacks up against the Cross-Cultural Center? I'd say, so. Berhane: Um, I think what, you know, during time, with time you have to identify all the different things that you need, who needs what. And so, I don't know, I don't wanna compare or compete or anything as, you know, not just a Black Student Center, not just a Latino Center, not just a Women's Center or a Native American Center. It's more they all have their own individual roles to play in the, in, in, you know, in this community. So, Black Student Center was a necessary department, was a necessary service, a necessary center to have on campus. If we are going to have specific groups feeling welcomed and that they have a space on campus. With Multicultural Programs its good, when multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-gender, or whatever you call it, in name. It-- but they're able to come and use that as a center for that. But I think people feel comfortable where they feel they belong to. Just like the student organizations. When I was a student, when I see a sociology club, accounting club, Latino club, well, I wanted to have the Black Student Club. So I was part of a Black student club. Uh, we were calling it African American or African Student Organization, African, all kinds of stuff, trying to say we have something that belongs to us. So for me, it's not like in comparison to other centers, it was necessary to have a center for the Black students to feel comfortable enough to go there. And so for us, again, as advocates for services to different interests of different student groups, to have that implemented and to see that while I was a student, I while I was an employee here, was a great thing. I was always involved like I say from day one, whether since starting a student organization, once I became a staff (employee designation), we have the Black Faculty and Staff Association. I've been part of that (inaudible) since day one. When we graduated in 1992, I became one of the board members with the Alumni Association, starting Alumni Association I can say I've been part of a lot of starting things because I think the need, the need is there and if I'm able to help on engage(ment), why not? So I as, as someone who was active as a student, once I graduated, I was also pulled to help start the Alumni Association. And so I think, you know, in trying to answer your question, it's not really in competition or one over the other or against the other. It's more providing services to the different populations, different groups with different interests that we have on campus. Stanley: Uh, yeah, perhaps I worded that a little wrong. You touched on this before, but what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center play as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces like you named before? Berhane: I think it requires an understanding of what its mission is, an understanding. So if I'm coming as a student, new student coming to campus, I'm a Black student. I'm not going to ask for multicultural programs where, you know, “Where is a multicultural program?” I'm gonna ask, where is a Black Student Center? If I'm going to join a student organization, I'm either going to ask for something related to my major or something related to my identity. And so, multicultural, Cross-Cultural Center, the definition of it needs to be clear to people from day one at orientation. Okay? And so, yes, it does have a mission. Yes, it does have a purpose to be here on campus to serve, but is it serving the group of people who don't have a center already? Or is it bringing all the centers together? And so, uh, reexamination of the whole purpose of Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center might be necessary at some point to say, “Who am I serving?” Okay? Because you have Latino Center here, Women's Center, gender, you know, gender and Black Student Center, there may be a need to really qualify, “Why should I go there?” Even though I know I'm familiar with it. But if I am a newcomer, what am I gonna look for? It does serve a population that doesn't, that doesn't fit any of the other ones (other centers). But what extent do they understand it? To what extent are they familiar and aware of this service and this center? Stanley: I guess the same thing I ask as a longtime CSUSM (staff and administrative) member and student of CSUSM, what advice would you give the Cross-Cultural Center to be more inclusive and, and get those people who are outside of the lines of the Latin( /x) Center, or the Black (Student) Center? Berhane: I don't know if, uh, Floyd (Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time of the interview’s recording) will need my advice. I'm sure he, he is very familiar with what he's doing and what, you know, what he sees all the different centers around him, and he works very closely with the student centers and stuff. So they don't really need my advice. But I think, you know, always doesn't hurt to go back and look at who is, who is being engaged here? Who is our population? Who is the most frequently arrival here in relation to-- So if I were to look back at who the most popular, what population used to be there... more often it is more of the Asian population. Okay. So the Asian population probably don't have any other location, but the Multicultural Programs (Cross-Cultural Center). Because we, I'm being honest, this Black Student center, Latino Center, Indian Center, there's an argument there should be a White center too. But (laughs), that's a different story. But I think the thing is, you know, a lot of, we’ve got to go back and take a look at the purpose of this center. Are we serving the population that we were formed to serve and continually revise. Take, you know, take notes of all the people who have come to you on a daily basis and see if we are missing anybody. If we are missing anybody, the best place to meet them is at orientation. When they all come in on campus with their families and you know, tell them where all the different services are, make that as a, you know, make it as an effort. I used to do recruitment too even when I was a student assistant. Students who heard me talk about “Cal State Marcos will offer you this, this, and that.” Once they come to Cal State San Marcos, if they experience the things that I told them ; Cal State San Marcos will serve you, they (the students) would remember that and say, “I'm so glad that you said that. I am glad I heard you say that.” And I can see, and really, I use that and it's helped, it has helped me. I really appreciate that. So, we need to be able to impact students from the day one, what kind of services we are providing for them and why they should come to our department, why they should come to our service, why they should come to my class, why they should do those things at the orientation, at wherever they are at the beginning. And so, identify your population, identifying all the different services you can provide, as much as you can provide. You don't expect someone, uh, search you and come to your office. They're not, they're not gonna come, unless they hear you say something, something. Stanley: So, yes. So to, to uh, summarize, make people aware of the program. Make sure that you know who you're serving and that, why they should come there. Berhane: Yes. That's how I feel. That's how I feel. I mean, people need to know. A lot of people if they, if you don't know it, you don't know it, you're not going to go and search for it. You haven't heard anybody talking about it. So even though it may be available in your fingertips, this is different. Maybe I'm old fashioned, maybe I'm more like from person to person, but for me, the only way people can come to (the services) is (if) they're aware of it. So make it aware and be clear about what services you're providing and where you are located, what your hours are, your phone number and blah blah. And have 'em (students) come. And it, again, it doesn't have to be limited to orientation or one area or this and that. Could be classrooms. It could be announcements, it could be a lot of things. But make sure that, you know, you are known on campus for providing services that all students need or specific students need. Stanley: All right. Well I really appreciate you coming. I'm gonna end the recording now. Berhane: Well, thank you. Uh, let me say thank you, uh, Seth, for this opportunity. And I say I'm grateful that you invited me and that I'm a part of this. I hope I have given you what I know a little bit, but I really appreciate this opportunity and thank you very much as well. Stanley: I enjoyed the conversation as well. Ending the recording now. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29.xml BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Berhane, Gezai. Interview March 29th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Gezai Berhane is a California State University San Marcos alumnus, where he was part of the first graduating class. Since his graduation, Berhane was a CSUSM employee until his retirement in 2021. Most recently he worked as Associate Director of Operations. In this interview, Berhane discusses his immigration journey, involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, campus Greek life, and other student centers at California State University San Marcos. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-37 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Greek life California State University San Marcos. Student Activities Refugees -- Eritrea Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-29 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gezai Berhane Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Eritrea San Marcos, (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Gezai Berhane Black experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Immigrant experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0f70d634d980b560c08804e1f0c93dd9.pdf 6b0b5f6cda3e59307102e4f5a008ea9c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Burke, Gina. Interview transcript, November 13, 2025. Description An account of the resource Gina Burke served during the Vietnam War as a First Lieutenant operating room nurse in the U.S. Army Nurse Corps. Burke spoke about her family background in the Philippines, immigration to the U.S., and father’s military service. She enlisted in the Army Nurse Corps so she could complete nursing school with financial aid. Burke deployed to Vietnam and served mostly as a scrub nurse at a time when operating room nurses were in high demand. Burke reflected on the difficult working conditions and traumatic experiences that characterized her wartime service. She spoke about her social life and experience as a woman in the military. In this oral history, Burke shared how the military shaped her life and worldview. She spoke about her transition to civilian life and struggles with PTSD. Burke reflected on how counseling, community service, and veteran associations helped her feel better about her military service. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gina Burke Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-11-13 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Gina Burke License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BurkeGina_BeyerJason_2025-11-13_transcript Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army Nurse Corps Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Catholics Tagalog language Cebuano language Iloko language World War, 1939-1945 MacArthur, Douglas, 1880-1964 Leyte, Battle of, Philippines, 1944 Nursing education Military nursing Fort Sam Houston (Tex.) Fort Bliss (Tex.) William Beaumont Army Medical Center (El Paso, Tex.) Travis Air Force Base (Calif.) Vietnam. Army of the Republic of Vietnam. Corps, 1st United States. Army. 95th Evacuation Hospital Quonset huts Scrub nurses Medical Civic Action Programs American National Red Cross Fort Hood (Tex.) San Marcos Vet Center (Calif.) San Diego VA Medical Center (San Diego, Calif.) Agent Orange Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States Vietnam Veterans of America, Inc. American Legion Palomar College (San Marcos, Calif.) Cruisin’ Grand (Escondido, Calif.) Post-traumatic stress disorder Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam San Marcos (Calif.) Philippines California United States Leyte (Philippines) Cebu (Philippines) Luzon (Philippines) Denver (Colo.) Escondido (Calif.) El Paso (Tex.) Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam) Da Nang (Vietnam) San Diego County (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) Chula Vista (Calif.) Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gina Burke OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BurkeGina_BeyerJason_2025-11-13.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Burke, Gina. Interview November 13th, 2025 SC027-100 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm U.S. Army Nurse Corps ; Vietnam War, 1961-1975 ; Veteran ; First Lieutenant ; Philippines ; Escondido (Calif.) Gina Burke Jason Beyer Moving Image BurkeGina_BeyerJason_2025-11-13.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f7ff35808abcdac1c1144cc25c62378d.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction and Military Background Virginia Burke describes her military background. She served during the Vietnam War as a First Lieutenant operating room nurse in the U.S. Army Nurse Corps. California State University San Marcos ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; U.S. Army Nurse Corps ; First Lieutenant ; Vietnam ; operating room nurse 0 63 Family Background, Childhood in the Philippines, and Immigration to the United States Burke shares her family background, including her upbringing in the Philippines. Her father served during WWII, and Burke lived through the war’s devasting impact on the Philippines. At five years old, her family immigrated to California. Philippines ; World War II ; California ; United States ; orphanage ; Central Philippines ; Catholic ; English ; Tagalog ; Cebuano ; Leyte (Philippines) ; Cebu (Philippines) ; Luzon (Philippines) ; Ilocano 0 258 Family Military Background and Burke’s Decision to Join the Military Burke’s father served in the U.S. Army during WWII and was injured in the Battle of Leyte. Her family’s military background influenced Burke’s decision to join the military. She remembers changing her father’s wound bandages, which she considers the start of her road to becoming a nurse. U.S. Army ; World War II ; General Douglas MacArthur ; Leyte (Philippines) ; Battle of Leyte ; tuberculosis ; Denver (Colo.) ; VA hospital ; Escondido (Calif.) ; nurse ; military 0 428 Working at a Nursing Home and Burke’s Decision to Join the Army Nurse Corps Burke worked at a nursing school during the summers as a high school student, which inspired her to become a nurse. Burke struggled with money to finish nursing school, so she enlisted in the Army Nurse Corps and graduated using financial aid. Burke got her commission and went to Fort Sam Houston in Texas. nursing home ; summer ; high school ; nursing school ; military recruiters ; U.S. Army Nurse Corps ; Fort Sam Houston ; Air Force ; financial aid 0 638 Early Military Experience and Training Burke described her early military experience as exciting. She completed basic training in the medical field, including some firearms training with a .45 handgun. She completed military nursing classes and operating room school. After basic training, she transferred to the William Beaumont Hospital at Fort Bliss where she worked in the hospital wards. Burke had to learn much in a short time, because military operating room nurses were in high demand for the war. basic training ; military nursing ; .45 (handgun) ; field hospital ; operating room school ; El Paso (Texas) ; Fort Bliss ; Beaumont Hospital 0 946 Promotions and Adapting to Military Service After she completed operating room school, Burke had orders to go to Vietnam. She received her first promotion when she arrived in Vietnam. The easiest part of adapting to military service for Burke was education, because she had already “been to school so much already.” promotion ; Vietnam ; operating room ; Beaumont Hospital ; ward 0 1081 Social Life in the Military Burke described what it felt like to serve as a woman in the military, which is predominantly male. Most nurses were female, although there were a few male nurses. Burke was initially shy but "opened up a lot” once she adjusted to her new environment. Vietnam ; operating room nursing ; friend ; roommate ; school ; nurse ; shy ; medical field ; social life 0 1219 Deployment to Vietnam Burke’s deployment to Vietnam was very hard on her family. Her WWII-veteran father and uncle both cried on the day she left. Burke says that she only realized later why her family was so concerned, because some nurses were killed in combat in Vietnam. She says that she always thought God would take care of her. Burke landed in Saigon then arrived at the 95th evacuation hospital in Da Nang, which was a permanent field hospital. Burke described some of the work she did at the hospital, mostly as a scrub nurse for neural cases. wartime service ; Vietnam ; Travis Air Force Base ; World War II ; military ; nurse ; combat ; Army ; woman ; Saigon (Vietnam) ; I Corps (ARVN) ; 95th evacuation hospital ; Da Nang (Vietnam) ; field hospital ; Quonset hut ; operating room ; scoping ; scrub nurse 0 1479 Service and Social Life in Vietnam Burke described the immense pressure that she worked under. Nurses were understaffed, worked long hours, and had little downtime because they could not leave a case unless it was finished. The nurses knew to return to the hospital when they heard incoming helicopters with wounded servicemembers. Burke went on some MEDCAP visits, which stands for the Medical Civic Action Program. These visits supported local Vietnamese with medical services. The social life in Vietnam was difficult due to the workload, but on her time off there were occasional gatherings for meals at a nearby Naval Hospital or trips to “China Beach” when the weather was nice. It was hard for Burke to stay connected with many of her military friends because she did not get their contact information before leaving. friend ; work ; nurse ; helicopter ; Da Nang (Vietnam) ; hospital ; operating room ; MEDCAP ; Medical Civic Action Program ; doctor ; village ; surgery ; kid ; cleft palate ; bedside nurse ; ICU ; Intensive Care Unit ; dinner ; food ; China Beach (Da Nang, Vietnam) ; casualty ; downtime ; beach ; recreation area ; weather ; Navy ; Naval Hospital ; anesthesiologist ; Army Hospital ; phone number ; address ; woman ; plane ; West Coast ; California 0 2022 Communication with Friends and Family in the U.S. While Deployed Overseas Burke communicated with her friends and family by mail. Her family once sent her a tape-recorded message. Burke mostly corresponded with her friend stationed at Fort Bliss, who became a close friend throughout her life. Burke described the difficulties with communication today caused by incorrect contact information or new communication technology. mail ; tape recording ; California ; San Diego County (Calif.) ; fair ; Red Cross ; letter ; friend ; Fort Bliss ; contact ; technology ; computer ; answering service ; phone 0 2177 Keepsakes and Lighthearted Memories While Deployed Burke did not bring much with her to Vietnam because she did not know what to expect nor want to lose anything. However, she did have her Catholic rosary and some books. Burke also hinted at a humorously embarrassing moment that took place on the beach. keepsake ; rosary ; Catholic ; book ; read ; superstition ; God ; Vietnam ; memory ; humorous ; beach 0 2304 End of Military Service Burke was glad to return stateside and end her military service, but she was disappointed to lose the contact information of people she formed relationships with. Burke described her military career as traumatic, especially at the beginning of her time in Vietnam. Burke reflected on the “atmosphere of the society in general” and feelings of animosity toward Vietnam veterans. Burke remembers changing out of her military uniform at the airport in order to avoid protest. Burke says she was generally treated better because she was a nurse, but she still “felt sad going to the airports.” Fort Hood ; Fort Sam Houston ; El Paso ; William Beaumont Hospital ; address ; transition ; discharge ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; California ; atmosphere ; military career ; trauma ; animosity ; airport ; flight attendant ; uniform ; Army ; nurse ; hospital ; civilian 0 2618 Transition to Civilian Life and PTSD When Burke returned to civilian life, she rarely spoke of her military service and never told her family about it. She talked about her military experience only with other veterans, who were usually men. Although Burke married a Vietnam veteran who served in the Navy, they never talked about war experiences. She started to realize she was having terrible nightmares and worried she was developing a mental illness like her mother had. Burke felt paranoia, fear, and anger. She struggled with loud noises and would cry often. She went to a psychologist, but he said he could not help her. 14 years after her first husband passed away, her second husband suggested that she may have PTSD. Burke’s husband helped her receive counseling and treatment from the San Marcos Veterans Center and San Diego VA Medical Center. The services she received have helped her feel better about her military service. She now helps other veterans access these services and has joined multiple veterans' associations. family ; community ; military service ; veteran ; women ; woman ; married ; San Diego (Calif.) ; military community ; Vietnam ; Navy ; China Sea ; nightmare ; paranoid ; afraid ; cry ; husband ; California ; counseling ; civilian life ; work ; civilian nurse ; Northern California ; mental illness ; mother ; psychologist ; anger ; doctor ; PTSD ; San Marcos Veterans Center ; VA hospital ; La Jolla (San Diego) ; Agent Orange ; sailor ; war ; overseas ; Chula Vista (Calif.) ; VFW ; Veterans of Foreign Wars ; Vietnam Veterans of America ; American Legion ; military organization 0 3572 How Military Service Shaped Burke’s Life and Worldview Burke thinks that U.S. society did a terrible disservice to Vietnam veterans and that many veterans repressed their trauma as a result. She also reflected on her experience as a female veteran. Burke believes all veterans need to talk about their service and build community. Her military service inspired her to join veteran organizations, volunteer to support the military community, and share what she has learned about the medical field with other veterans. military service ; Vietnam ; veteran ; woman ; military organization ; veteran community ; medical field ; Agent Orange ; medical problem ; drugs 0 3928 Message for Future Generations, What People Should Know About Veterans, and Life Lessons from Military Service Burke urges future generations who join the military to also join a military organization and support the community. She says that, if she would have joined an organization sooner, she would have felt less alone as a woman in the service. Now, Burke makes lunches for veterans at Palomar College and enjoys supporting the veteran community. She wishes more people understood that veterans have sacrificed much for the United States. Burke thinks it is important not to demean veterans’ service or forget what they have sacrificed. military organization ; military community ; woman ; women ; Palomar College ; lunch ; veteran ; sacrifice ; service 0 4185 Involvement with San Diego County Community Burke got connected with the San Diego County community mostly through volunteer work. She has volunteered for her church and other organizations. Much of her recent volunteer work has been supporting the military veteran community. She is satisfied with her volunteer work and the people she has connected with. volunteer ; organization ; church ; community ; veteran ; military ; Cruisin' Grand ; Escondido (Calif.) 0 4314 Conclusion Burke thanks the interviewer and is grateful that veterans are able to share their feelings about military service. She wants people to talk with veterans in their community, many of whom are volunteers. volunteer ; community ; civilian 0 Oral history Gina Burke served during the Vietnam War as a First Lieutenant operating room nurse in the U.S. Army Nurse Corps. Burke spoke about her family background in the Philippines, immigration to the U.S., and father’s military service. She enlisted in the Army Nurse Corps so she could complete nursing school with financial aid. Burke deployed to Vietnam and served mostly as a scrub nurse at a time when operating room nurses were in high demand. Burke reflected on the difficult working conditions and traumatic experiences that characterized her wartime service. She spoke about her social life and experience as a woman in the military. In this oral history, Burke shared how the military shaped her life and worldview. She spoke about her transition to civilian life and struggles with PTSD. Burke reflected on how counseling, community service, and veteran associations helped her feel better about her military service. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:02.705 --> 00:00:32.005 My name is Jason Beyer, and I'm a graduate of CSUSM (California State University San Marcos). Today is Thursday, November 13th, 2025, and we're conducting this interview in San Marcos, California with Virginia F. Burke. Also present is photographer Vyanh Vo. This oral history will preserve the lived experiences of United States military veterans. Please state your full name. 00:00:32.005 --> 00:00:34.594 Virginia Fay Burke. 00:00:34.594 --> 00:00:36.484 Your branch of service. 00:00:36.484 --> 00:00:39.945 I was in the U.S. Army Nurse Corps. 00:00:39.945 --> 00:00:42.244 The highest rank that you attained. 00:00:42.244 --> 00:00:44.265 First Lieutenant. 00:00:44.265 --> 00:00:51.445 And please state the war or conflict that was happening during your time of service. 00:00:51.445 --> 00:01:03.015 I served in Vietnam as an operating room nurse and in the Army Nurse Corps. 00:01:03.015 --> 00:01:10.965 Thank you. So now what we'll do is begin with a brief introduction. So where were you born and raised? 00:01:10.965 --> 00:01:40.015 I was born in the Philippines when my father got stationed there during World War II, at the end of the war. And after five years, we immigrated to California. My dad was in the hospital for four years, so that's why there was a big lag time for us to come to United States. 00:01:40.015 --> 00:01:49.344 Being five years old and living in the Philippines, do you remember what that life was like for the first five years you were there? 00:01:49.344 --> 00:02:52.764 Yes, vividly, because at the age of three I took care of my brother, and we were put in a orphanage because my mom needed to go back to her island home in Central Philippines. And she left us there in a Catholic orphanage. And I remember going outside and you could see all the destruction from World War II buildings that had not been rebuilt up to that point. And food was scarce. We got a lot of our food from the US military, but it didn't last very long. But sometimes we got fresh fruit from the States and that was always a nice surprise for the kids. 00:02:52.764 --> 00:02:58.000 When you finally reached the United States, was that a hard transition for you? 00:02:58.000 --> 00:04:18.045 Yes, because we didn't speak English at the time. My brother and I spoke Tagalog. My mother spoke her language, which was Cebuano because it was in Leyte and Cebu area. So she was schooled in Cebu, so she knew Cebuano quite well. And my dad—when he was born—he was born up in northern Luzon on the seacoast, and he spoke his language and it was Ilocano. So when we spoke in our house in California, we all spoke English (laughs). And my dad wanted us to learn how to speak English. So he really wanted us to speak English. And in fact, he would pinch us if he (laughs) heard us speaking Tagalog, just to emphasize how important it was for us to speak English. 00:04:18.045 --> 00:04:25.545 Did your family ever serve in the US military or other military service from other countries before you? 00:04:25.545 --> 00:05:05.264 My father only. He was in the US Army. They drafted him when World War II started. So he went into the service in 1942—or '41—no, '42. And he served until he was injured when General MacArthur (Douglas MacArthur) landed in Leyte, 'cause he was involved in the Battle of Leyte. He went on shore there. 00:05:05.264 --> 00:05:10.365 Did that play an influence on your decision to join the military? 00:05:10.365 --> 00:07:08.814 Yes, very much so. My father was wounded in that battle. And while he was recovering, he was exposed to tuberculosis. And they didn't diagnose it for almost a year. And by the time they realized he had it, it had spread through his whole body, just about. And so they gave him a medical discharge and sent him to Denver, Colorado, to the big VA hospital that had tuberculosis wards there. There were several floors and there were many, many tuberculosis patients there. And that's what my dad had always told me. He kept in touch with those men, even though he didn't fight with them, but he kept in touch with them because they had something in common. But he came home with a open wound when he came home. We moved to Escondido (California) in 1952, when we arrived here. And at age nine, one day I saw him changing his wound bandage. And I said, "How can you reach it?" Because it was way in the back on his right side. And he says, "Well, I just have to do what I can." So I said, "I can help you." And so that's the start of my road to becoming a nurse. And I really wanted to be a nurse in the military because I could take care of patients in the hospital when I became a nurse. 00:07:08.814 --> 00:07:22.964 Leading up to your military service, prior to that, while you were in high school or getting ready to graduate, did you ever hold any jobs before joining the service? 00:07:22.964 --> 00:08:16.964 Well, I worked in a nursing home during the summer—two years, two summers. And so I kind of liked taking care of the patients, but they were elderly and we had to help them get out of bed. We gave them bed baths. The nurses there taught me how to do that and how to do—but I liked it. So I said, "Yes!" Now I knew I could become a nurse. So that was my goal in high school anyway, was to become a nurse. So I really didn't have any experience except doing my dad's wound change, and doing the bandage. 00:08:16.964 --> 00:08:25.004 What led you to your final decision to serve, and were you drafted or did you get a commission as an officer? 00:08:25.004 --> 00:09:43.144 Well, when I was in nursing school, I was—I didn't have very much money to finish school, and so I was trying to see if I could get a grant or some kind of scholarship. But, everything was—by the time I decided I needed it, the money was gone already. And so when I was in the nursing program, recruiters—military recruiters—came to our dormitory. And so I had a talk with them. And it turned out that the Army Nurse Corps had the best one for me because I could go in right away. And I was enlisted into the Army Nurse program—so with the financial aid in my last year of nursing school. And after I graduated from the school, then I got my commission, and then went to Fort Sam Houston (Texas). 00:09:43.144 --> 00:09:52.225 As far as the different branches, did that play a role in your decision for the Army over the, like such as the Navy or the Air Force at the time? 00:09:52.225 --> 00:10:38.065 Yes, because I really wanted to go into the Air Force because I thought that flight nursing was gonna be a possibility for me. But then they didn't have any programs that I could use to help me with my financial aid, and the Army had the program. And that's why I decided to go with that, because I didn't wanna wait another year to finish up my nursing program because I felt that I would not remember a lot of my schooling to take the state board if I took a whole year off from school just to earn the money to go back to school. 00:10:38.065 --> 00:10:46.000 So now we're moving on to your early military experience. What do you remember about your first days in the military? 00:10:46.000 --> 00:11:34.725 (Burke laughs.) It was exciting because I'd been in school for 17 years at that point. And, so it was nice to just be kind of free from studying. And it was exciting meeting new people and getting used to the military. Of course, there were things that they, you know, the rest of the military liked to play pranks on you, but I coped with it. I was so happy all the time, and I was—I guess I was a target (laughs). But it was fun. I liked it—meeting the new friends—and so it was great (laughs). 00:11:34.725 --> 00:11:41.434 What kind of training did you receive or schooling did you complete at the beginning of your early days of service? 00:11:41.434 --> 00:13:57.544 Well, I took my basic training in the medical field. They helped us with wearing a uniform and all the rules that you had. We took classes in military nursing, filling out the forms, that kind of thing. And we had to learn basic military. We went on a—oh, I forgot what the name of it was, but they taught you how to hold a gun, especially a .45, because that's what we would have to have if we ever were surrounded by the enemy. That's the only weapon that you could carry. But, you know, it was hard. I was small. I couldn't carry a gun as heavy as a .45. I had to use two hands just to hold it. But it made it interesting. And then we set up a field hospital and we learned all the formularies for the pharmacy that we were exposed to. How to get medications to the area. And then I was trying to get ready for my operating room school. And after I finished the basic training, then I was transferred to El Paso, to Fort Bliss. And I was working in the Beaumont Hospital. It was a field hospital. And I worked on two wards—a neuro (neurology) ward and urology ward—just to get some experience working in a military hospital. That was my first hospital that I worked in after my schooling. 00:13:57.544 --> 00:14:04.225 Do you recall any instructors or leaders who had a lasting impact on you all in your training? 00:14:04.225 --> 00:15:46.365 Oh, I remember my teacher for the operating room school. She was very good at what she did. Her name was Major Blackwood, I think it was her name. And she was a—I tried to remember everything, all the little, you know, tips that she would help us with. And she taught us all the aseptic technique, all the instrumentation for different surgeries. And I learned a lot more about anatomy and physiology, because in the operating room, you have to know that. So depending on what the wound was, you would know a lot more about the anatomy of body. And it was a great course. It was supposed to be a six-month course, but they needed operating room nurses so badly. And it was scaled down to four months, but we went to school every day for at least 8-hour plus—10-hour plus days sometimes, because sometimes we had to go to the OR just to learn how to set up an operating room. 00:15:46.365 --> 00:15:52.215 Were there any promotions or milestones during your early days of service you'd like to share? 00:15:52.215 --> 00:16:54.304 I didn't get a promotion until my first year was over, and I already had orders to go to Vietnam by that time 'cause I had finished my course in the operating room. So when I went to Beaumont—when I worked on the wards—they were trying to get me to think about the operating room school. And so I didn't get any promotions, but I knew that I was going to Vietnam. And so, on the way there, my promotion went through. So on the other side, when I got to Vietnam, they gave me my promotion. 00:16:54.304 --> 00:17:00.754 What part of the military life came naturally or felt the easiest for you? 00:17:00.754 --> 00:18:01.934 Well, I'd been to school so much already. I thought the school room was the—I loved it. I tried hard to remember everything that I learned. And I would talk to the doctors about the surgeries, and they gave me a lot of information that I carried to the end of my career in nursing—in the civilian life. And I've saved several people's lives because of the tips that doctors would tell me during surgery. And I felt blessed in that way because I had a good memory. And so I thought that was a plus for me (laughs). 00:18:01.934 --> 00:18:13.944 During your stateside service, before you left for Vietnam, what was your interaction like with other people in the military or people you might have met off base or something? 00:18:13.944 --> 00:20:19.375 Well, you know, when I came into the service, there weren't very many women coming. In my class, we even had one man that was doing operating room nursing. He had to take it so that—he wanted to be a nurse anesthetist. So the others, you know, we all came from different walks of life. So it was a hit and miss whether you could make a good friend. And I became friends with my roommate because we lived together, but she still went her way after we left the school. And most of the men—most of the military that I came in contact with were men, except for the nurses. And but going to school in the military—I don't know, it just seemed like there were more men than there were women. And the women were very shy. I didn't think I was that shy. I mean, I was shy because I didn't have very many experiences when I was a child. But once I realized what my environment was gonna be, I really opened up a lot. And I was always trying to learn a lot, not only about my environment and the medical field, you know, but even just my social environment, because it was all new to me when I went into the service—all new. Social life, military life, medical life. So I learned a lot. And that's what I wanted to do—and I did. 00:20:19.375 --> 00:20:30.625 So now we're moving on to your wartime service. You stated that you served in Vietnam. What was it like for you the day before you left for Vietnam? 00:20:30.625 --> 00:22:29.914 Well, my family took me up to Travis Air Force Base to catch the flight. And I didn't realize that my dad and my uncle were really concerned about me going to Vietnam because they had been in battle in World War II. But my dad was proud that I was in the military as a nurse. But he was also afraid for me to go to combat. But I never thought anything about the combat part. I just knew I was gonna be now nursing in the Army. So my family was all concerned, and my dad and uncle started crying, and so did my aunt. And I felt embarrassed because I was the only one that was a woman there. All the rest of the guys that got on the plane were men. And they were all looking at our—my family. And after I got on the plane, they said, "Oh, it's all right. You were the only woman there. Of course, they're gonna cry. You know, they don't, have a woman going into the combat zone very often." So then I said, "Okay, that's right." And I never realized it until later though, how much they worried about me. And when I found out that there were some nurses that were killed over in Vietnam, I really got concerned. But I made it through. I just felt, well, I have a spiritual side of me, and I always thought that God will take care of me. And so I trusted that (laughs). 00:22:29.914 --> 00:22:33.714 When and where did you deploy to in Vietnam? 00:22:33.714 --> 00:24:39.815 Well, I landed in Saigon, but as soon as I got my orders in Saigon they said I was going up to I Corps (ARVN), and I went to the 95th evacuation hospital in Da Nang. It was a field hospital, but it was a permanent field hospital. It was made of Quonset huts. And we had three, well, four operating rooms. Three of 'em they used every day. The only time they used the fourth one was when they had something that was different, like a scoping—or what we called scoping in those days when they were trying to do a kidney or a bladder problem. And they would go in there and work on that patient. I only did one person, one patient there. And it was pretty simple. And then that was it. I never went in that room anymore. I was—because I was mostly a scrub nurse for regular wounds—neural cases were the ones that I really, I did a lot of neural cases—brain injury and neck injuries—that kind of thing. And then we did a lot of abdominal cases. We had amputations. And those were big cases for me, because I'd never been exposed to those kinds of cases in the military in the States. So I learned a lot, and it prepared me for my civilian life. 00:24:39.815 --> 00:24:49.214 What stands out the most about your time overseas? Moments that were meaningful, difficult, or unexpected? 00:24:49.214 --> 00:26:32.365 Well, I was really surprised because I didn't make a lot of good friends there, because I was so busy working all the time. And on my downtime, I didn't know anybody else that would have the time off. Because we had a few nurses, but we had to stagger the days that we were off because we had to cover the rooms. And we never knew when the wounded would come in. In fact, they'll call you in—wherever you are—to come and do cases if they got a lot of wounded coming in by helicopter. You could hear the helicopters landing anywhere you went, except unless you went to the air base in Da Nang. But if you stayed around the hospital, you could hear them landing and you knew you had to get back to the hospital. But I only did that once because they were able to have a lot of the nurses stay around the operating room. And so by the time I got back to the base, well then it was time for me to go on. And we had long hours there. Most of the time it was long hours when they had casualties come in, and we couldn't leave a case unless it's finished. So it was one right after another. 00:26:32.365 --> 00:26:40.233 What were your experiences like with the local population or the different cultures while in Vietnam? Did you get to experience that at all? 00:26:40.233 --> 00:28:14.444 The only time I really got experiences, I went on a med—what they call a MEDCAP (Medical Civic Action Program). We would go into the villages and do—well, the doctors would go and see patients and then if they needed bandage changes or an injection, we gave those. And since I didn't speak their language, you know, you had to rely on the interpreters that came with us. But it was kind of simple because since my work was mostly in surgery, I didn't do a lot of work on patients when they were awake (laughs). So it was different for me, but I tried it 'cause I wanted to see what it was like. And mostly, you know, we—I helped the doctors hold the patients when they're doing examinations and that kind of thing. We did a lot of kids and we would try to get them booked for the OR for lots of little surgeries and some major surgeries, if we had a doctor to do it. They had a lot of cleft palates and things like that. And we could do those in our surgery. 00:28:14.444 --> 00:28:21.105 Did you form any lasting friendships or bonds during this time in service in Vietnam? 00:28:21.105 --> 00:33:42.325 I had one friend, but she was on the floor, you know. She was a bedside nurse, mostly in ICU (Intensive Care Unit). So I didn't get to see her too often because their hours were different from our hours, and we hardly ever got time off together. Once in a while in the evening, if we were free, we could get together and have dinner together. And then some of the doctors that I got to know, sometimes I would go to dinner with them, but I didn't like dinner there. I couldn't hardly eat it. The food wasn't very good. After—you know, we didn't get off at the meal times. So we missed meal times because we didn't—we would be on cases around the clock. And so when we did have time off, then we tried to go someplace where we could get a decent meal. And most of the time we went down to China Beach (Da Nang, Vietnam) and got a hamburger or something like that. But we'd have to come back right away because we never knew if their casualties are gonna come in. So there was only one part of that time when I was there where we had a lot of downtime because there was no fighting. And so we would go down to the—it was an in-country recreation area. So we would go down there and go to the beach and that kind of thing. And that was fun. That was a fun time for me. But it didn't last long because of the weather. Weather changed after a while, and then we didn't go—I didn't go there anymore, and it was mostly on the base. And I read a lot. And my—one of the doctors I worked with, he was in the Navy. He was lent to us by the Naval Hospital that closed down. They had just come in country. And so two anesthesiologists came to our base and worked with us in the Army Hospital. And I got to know the one that was an anesthesiologist. And sometimes we would go to his naval hospital that was just down the road. And we could go to dinner there. And that was real good food (laughs). I remember that. I really liked going there. So if he asked me if I wanted to go, and he was off and I was off, he says, "Come on, Gina, let's go and have a good dinner" (laughs). I never turned it down (laughs). But I lost touch with him. I guess it's because, you know, when we came home, it was not good. We didn't talk about military service. I never talked about it at all. My family never asked me questions about it. And so it was like I lost everything that—lots of memory. I tried to put the memory behind me because it was not a good time. And so I didn't keep up with a lot of the ones that I'd gotten to know in Vietnam, because we all went different ways. We didn't come home together. And you forget when you're trying to go home, 'cause you're happy to go home, but then you forget to get phone numbers and addresses and stuff, things like that to really keep up. And so it was hard for me, because I was there by myself. I was the only woman coming back home on the plane. In fact, I didn't even sit with the men in the back. I sat in front (laughs), because I was the only woman on the plane (laughs again). And all I did was sleep most of the time. So I never really thought about keeping in touch with them because we're so far away. We were spread out all over. Most of the ones I got to know were back east. And I was going to the West Coast (laughs). I lived here in California for most of my life until I got married (laughs). 00:33:42.325 --> 00:33:46.184 How did you stay in touch with your loved ones back home? 00:33:46.184 --> 00:34:37.945 They wrote to me by mail. One time they sent me a little tape recording that they made while—when they went to the fair—the state fair in California, in San Diego County—they went to the fair and the Red Cross had had set up a way to record their message. And I got a recording from them in July. I remember thinking, Well, how am I gonna listen to this? I don't have a tape recorder (laughs). And when I told somebody about it in the operating room, they said, "Oh, I have a tape recorder if you wanna listen to it!" And I said, "Yeah." So everybody got to listen to it (laughs). Yeah. 00:34:37.945 --> 00:34:46.047 Was it hard for you to hear the voice of your family members while you're in the middle of a war zone and away for the holidays and— 00:34:46.047 --> 00:36:17.905 —Oh, yes. 'cause I missed them. And, so they only—see, they didn't really know that they could talk to me or write to me, because I never—I only wrote a couple of letters home. I mostly wrote to a friend of mine that was stationed in Fort Bliss—one of my friends from Fort Bliss that I met there. We became good friends throughout my life. And I just lost contact with her a few years ago, maybe because well, she was older than I was, so I think maybe she didn't know how to maneuver—how to use the technology that we have today. You know, she didn't have a computer or anything like that. And I tried to get her to get a answering service on her phone. And it took her a long time because she didn't even know where to go get one (laughs). So I lost touch with those that couldn't keep up with the technology in the later years. 00:36:17.905 --> 00:36:25.244 Did you carry any rituals or keepsakes or good luck items during your time in Vietnam? 00:36:25.244 --> 00:37:51.184 Not really. I had my rosary 'cause I was a Catholic. I had my rosary and that's about all I had. I didn't carry too much over 'cause I didn't wanna lose anything, you know, because I didn't know where we would keep 'em. I had no idea what life was gonna be like. I thought it was always moving around, and I didn't realize that I was gonna have a room to myself and those kinds of things. So I didn't take very much. I took a couple of books because I like to read. But even the books I got from others, because when I read the books that I took with me, I didn't have anything else to read. But some of the others had books that they had collected, we would pass 'em around to the ones that like to read. And that's about all that I had. I don't—I wasn't—what do you call it?—into superstition. I—like I said—I always just believed in God (laughs). 00:37:51.184 --> 00:37:58.914 Were there any lighthearted memories or humorous events that you'd like to share about your time in Vietnam? 00:37:58.914 --> 00:38:24.545 Well (smiles, laughs). I don't think I should do that one because it happened on the beach (laughs)! And I felt so embarrassed I had to go back to the room (laughs). So if you can imagine that (laughs), that's all I can say! 00:38:24.545 --> 00:38:32.034 When it was time for you to leave and return back stateside, what did that feel like for you? 00:38:32.034 --> 00:39:47.144 I was glad because, you know, you get lonesome there. I didn't really have a real good, good friend like I did in the States. I formed relationships at—not so much at Fort Hood, the last place I was at, but from Fort Sam Houston and El Paso, William Beaumont, I had friends that we kept in touch with. And slowly, I lost touch with them as we moved—I moved a lot. So I really was the one that had to keep in touch with them. And sometimes I couldn't keep up with them because, you know, you lose their address or they changed their address. I changed my address so many times. People couldn't keep up with me (laughs). So that's why, I tried to keep up with some of 'em as much as I could, but it was hard. 00:39:47.144 --> 00:39:58.474 So we're moving on to your transition out of service. Do you remember the day your service ended? Please describe what that was like. 00:39:58.474 --> 00:43:38.014 Well, I only remembered going to the hospital. I went back east because I knew somebody back there that I could be with. And I didn't realize that when I went back there, they were gonna transition me for discharge. And so I thought I was gonna go back to L.A. (Los Angeles), but I could go anywhere I wanted. So I said, well, I think I would like to go there to be with my friend there. And, so I, you know, I don't really remember a lot about that day because I was just anxious to go back to California. I saw my friend and we did some things together, but then I went back home. I decided that I was gonna end my military career, because after that year—it was really traumatic for me at the beginning, and I didn't know how much it was going to affect me after I came back, especially with the atmosphere of the society in general. I was almost afraid to let anybody know that I'd been in the military. I felt that animosity even in the airport when I got off the plane. And so some of the flight attendants would tell me, "You should change outta your uniform when we land in Seattle." She says, "Get out of your uniform, so that you won't be noticed because some people are just mean." And I guess they saw that when the military got off the plane and into the society. So I was kind of scared, by myself walking around, but I did change into civilian uniform when I could. But when you traveled at that time—what's the name of that—I forgot what you call it when you travel by military—you had to wear your uniform in and out of the airport. So I tried to put on a jacket or something so that I wouldn't have to show the whole uniform. But some would ask me, "Oh, what did you do in the Army?" And I'd say, "I was a nurse in the hospital there." And, so I guess they thought that it was okay. So they didn't do anything to me, but I saw other things to other soldiers, and it was—I was sad. I felt sad going to the airports. And I never talked about those kinds of things, so I kept it inside. 00:43:38.014 --> 00:43:44.514 How were you received by your family or your community after you ended your service ended? 00:43:44.514 --> 00:59:32.045 I just, really, it was like, I'd never been gone. They never asked me about my military service. My family never asked me what it was like. They just didn't talk about it. So when I came home, I just—I said, "Well, I guess they don't wanna know. Maybe they're afraid to ask me anything." And so I kept it all to myself—unless I met a veteran and he says, "So, where were you stationed?" Well, of course I would tell him, but I knew that he was a military guy. Mostly it was all guys. That's all I—'cause there weren't very many women in the military at that time, you know, like they do now. So I would tell him about things that I would go through, you know, being a only woman out in the field and different places where I was stationed. And I felt comfortable talking to a veteran. But when I—after I got married and went back east, it was—we never talked about it. Most people didn't even know I'd been in the military. And that was—I got married three years after I came back. And then we were in San Diego—there's a lot of veterans—so I could talk to them, but most people didn't—even in the military—they didn't talk. They didn't ask questions, they just kept it quiet. It was like there were no military in San Diego, if you can believe that, because it's a big military community! But we hardly ever talked about our service. I hardly ever talked about it. Oh, sometimes they would mention it, but never personal experiences or anything like that. So I just thought that was, you know, normal. And I think a lot of the guys that had been in Vietnam, they felt the same way. They didn't talk about it. I was married to a Vietnam—but he was in a Vietnam military. He was in the Navy. But he stayed on the ship. He went—he took four tours over there in the China Sea, on the ship. And he never talked about it with me, only about what they did on the ship, but never about the war. And all his friends were the same way. We never talked about it. They never asked me about—in fact, they—some of them didn't even know I'd been in the military. And here I was married to a military man. And so I just didn't pay attention to it. But after I got married, I realized I was having terrible nightmares—real bad nightmares. And I know I just brushed it off because I didn't know that I was subject to that. I didn't know that that was normal for me, I guess, because of what I've gone through. I saw things that maybe a person my age and my experiences, that— I didn't know that. I've carried that burden through my whole life, having those nightmares and didn't know what was wrong with me. I got afraid. I became very paranoid, 'cause I was afraid of things that I wasn't afraid of before I left to go there. I couldn't stand being around loud noises. That was one thing I noticed. And I didn't like things on the streets, you know? And I was driving. And my husband would get mad at me if I swerved on the street. And he says, "What'd you do that for?" I said, "I didn't wanna run over the little squirrel." And he got upset with me. And I said, well—I didn't know that that was part of my paranoia. I didn't know in the—I still cried a lot. 'Cause that's what I did in Vietnam. I cried a lot, especially when I saw these horrific wounds. And I thought about those—the men that had to go back with those wounds. I didn't know how they could live. And I worried about that. (Burke's eyes tear up.) I said, "That was part of my problem with Vietnam." Because I kept that all inside of me, not knowing what was going on, what was normal or what wasn't. I just held it in until I came back here, back to California, and someone said, "You really need to go and have some counseling. 'Cause you have been affected by your wartime service." And the first day I had my counseling, I cried most of the whole time because I didn't realize that all that this was from that time period. Holding it inside, never talking about it, I never knew that this could happen to me. I've learned a lot now in the last—what I've been going now to counseling since 2014. I thought that I was going crazy when I was in the civilian life—when I got out and I started working. After I got married—no, before I got married—when I was working as a civilian nurse up in Northern California, I had run into these accidents and I started having those thoughts again about the patient. And I went home and I cried. Didn't know why I was crying. And I thought I was—see, my mother had a mental illness, and I thought that that's what was happening to me—that I was getting a mental illness because I couldn't stop crying. And so I made an appointment to go see a psychologist, but he couldn't help me. He didn't understand what I was feeling inside. And when I told him that I'd been in the military and I had just come back from Vietnam, he says, "Oh." He says, "You know, I really can't help you because I'm a family counselor." And he says, "And I don't know anybody that can help you with any wartime problems. So I just thought, okay, well now I guess I have to learn to cope with this because I was having a hard time with anger issues in the civilian hospitals. And, I had to control my anger. And I just lived that way. And even my husband, we would have arguments at home because of an anger issue. And I never—and he didn't know what was wrong with me. All he said was, "I think you should go see a doctor." But I didn't know anybody who to go to. 'Cause at that time we were back east, and I didn't know—I didn't have any military friends back there. And we didn't know what was wrong with me. He just knew there was something wrong with me. And it wasn't until my husband passed away and I was—I was single for 14 years before I met my second husband. And while we were going together, he noticed, he said, "You have signs of PTSD, do you know that?" And I said, "What's that?" And he says, "It's the name we call all of the symptoms that you have, because I hear you at nighttime. And see, I thought that I had gotten rid of it because I didn't have—no one knew that I was screaming in my sleep. I just knew that I was scared in my sleep. I never told anybody. And but when I got married, my husband saw it when I was sleeping, and it would wake him up from his sleep. And he says, "I think you need to go and see—and I know somebody over at the San Marcos Vet Center (San Marcos Veterans Center), 'cause I—he moved in with me after we got married. And he said, "I want you to go." So he took me there. He took me to the VA hospital in La Jolla (San Diego Veterans Administration Medical Center) and signed me up for Agent Orange, 'cause I had been through a lot of illnesses. And he says, "I think you need to go see the doctor too." So he signed me up for all this stuff. I didn't know anything, because my husband was—he was a Navy sailor. And he didn't know anything about the war, really. He, of course, he had issues there because of all the bombing they did over overseas, you know, especially in North Vietnam. He helped with all that stuff on the ship. But he never—didn't go through what I did. That's why he kept saying, "I think you should go to a psychologist or a psychiatrist." And that's what really pushed me into where I was (laughs). My husband took me to the San Marcos Vet Center. He talked to one of the counselors. And so, I don't know if you knew the counselors there, but he's gone now. He's down in Chula Vista. And I have a new counselor. I have Randy now. So I learned a lot since I started going to the San Marcos Vet Center. But I went a couple of times a week at first, because I had so much to get out of me. And since it was a first time that I really could talk about my military service, I had a lot to say. And not knowing that I had PTSD was a surprise to me. And so now I try to help others, you know. I tell them my story, and my first day was the most dramatic day of my life in Vietnam, and I didn't even know it. I was going in there and doing that surgery. I finally told my group this morning that that was one of the things that I had thought about for many years, that I probably had those problems because I was green when I went to Vietnam. I had no idea what I was gonna go through. And it was a new life for me as a civilian, and a new life for me as a medical person, and a new life for me for the military. It was all new. And so the last 20 years I've learned a lot (smiles), not only about my military life but my social life, my volunteer life. Everything's new. And now I feel like I'm a better person for it, and I now wanna help. That's why I joined all these associations. I belong to VFW (Veterans of Foreign Wars), Vietnam Veterans (Vietnam Veterans of America), American Legion. And now I can share! I feel like I've shared a lot now, and I wouldn't have been able to do that without those associations—military organizations—that helped me grow and feel better about my military service. 00:59:32.045 --> 00:59:34.000 So now we're moving on to reflections. 00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:35.925 Yes. 00:59:35.925 --> 00:59:41.795 How has military service shaped who you are today? 00:59:41.795 --> 01:02:44.105 Well, I learned a lot. A lot about myself. And I think that maybe I was cut out for military life, but because of my dad and all his army buddies that used to come around and talk about their service. And but I didn't quite learn enough because of the atmosphere of our society. They did a really terrible disservice to the Vietnam vets. A lot of us kept our service hidden and inside. They never let us grow into the people that we are now. I still know a lot of—I've met Vietnam vets that still haven't grown in their military service. They were stunted, I think, just like me, because of our society at that time, when we came back. Having been the only woman in a lot of places, I had to grow up in that atmosphere, and I learned a lot. I learned that men need a social life as much as a woman does. And they fear the same thing we fear as a woman. It's the military service that we have to talk about. And it was an eye-opener for me when I came to join the military organizations and the military support. It was an eyeopener for me. And I realize now that I like being in the veteran community because I learn all—every day I learn something new. And we should all stick together and form our own community. And that's what I—that's what I want to do now with my life is build military communities so that we can help the military community grow. 01:02:44.105 --> 01:02:50.344 In what ways has your military service influenced your outlook on life? 01:02:50.344 --> 01:05:28.795 Oh that is my outlook now! I want to help other military retirees, active duty, give them hints about what it's all about. I've learned so much and then I also can help them in the medical field, because I have a lot of medical experience now because I read a lot, I listen a lot, I still can—I try to keep in touch with the military medical part of it. I read a lot of things about Agent Orange, but what it, how it affected our lives. I've been through so many medical problems, and I don't like taking drugs. That's why when doctors try to get me to take these new drugs, I say, "No, I don't wanna do that." I like to stick with the old fashioned ones that I learned when I first went into the medical field, because I see what those new drugs do to us military people. And I've talked to doctors that were in the military, and they tell me, because they know I was in the military, they tell me things that I shouldn't do, and I don't. I try to pass that on to all the military for medical—that have medical problems. I pass 'em on, because I think that's one of the things that I can help them with. I talk in the group—my group sessions. I tell them what I learned and they like knowing what I can help them with. And so I think that's my outlook on life now, because I've learned a lot now about the military, medical, social, and all the problems that we carry around with us (laughs). 01:05:28.795 --> 01:05:38.994 What message would you want to leave for future generations who may watch or hear this interview? 01:05:38.994 --> 01:07:40.065 Well, that if you do go into the military, join a military organization so that you can learn how you can help support the military community if you go into the service. That's what I would like to tell you. If I had known that, I probably would have tried to join some of the military organizations earlier, because I've learned a lot. You know, I thought I was always all by myself because I was the only military woman around. And even to this day, I don't see very many women that had been in the service. They don't tell you unless you've—they'll let out something, and I say, "Oh, were you in the military?" And then they tell me (laughs). So I like to hear about their experiences, and I want to tell people about my experiences. Of course, I won't go into really big details, but things that could help them be supported or to help them live their life the way they want to. I try to help them. I go to Palomar College now, making lunches for them—the vets there that are going to school. I love it. I just love talking to them. I love feeding them. And they appreciate my food when I bring it. So—and that's what I look forward to now is doing that. 01:07:40.065 --> 01:07:45.985 What do you wish more people understood about veterans? 01:07:45.985 --> 01:08:31.725 That we're all good people, just like they are in the civilian life. They do a lot for our country. And believe me, I know. I've been there, and you don't know what we sacrifice. I've sacrificed my whole life for the military, and I never got the—(Burke pauses, her eyes tear up)—I never could tell them about it because they thought we didn't know anything. (Burke nods her head.) 01:08:31.725 --> 01:08:41.225 If you were to reflect on the journey of your service, what themes or life lessons emerge? 01:08:41.225 --> 01:09:45.854 Um, well, I think that everybody should know what careers have done in the military for you. The sacrifices that they gave. They should learn about them. And they can if you talk to some of the veterans and not be afraid. And don't demean their service, because I see that a lot. Especially those that have never served—they demean our service to our country, and they forget that we sacrificed. Our service is really a sacrifice for those that have never served. 01:09:45.854 --> 01:09:47.000 So this is the last question. 01:09:47.000 --> 01:09:48.814 Okay. 01:09:48.814 --> 01:09:55.425 How did you become connected to the San Diego County community after your time in service? 01:09:55.425 --> 01:11:54.265 Well, um, I volunteer a lot. I've volunteered in my church, in my community. I go to a lot of organizations. I've given talks. And I think that when you volunteer and go to these organizations, you can learn a lot about volunteering. I just went to one and I realized that I could volunteer in every one of 'em if they needed me (laughs). Now I belong to so many organizations that I don't have enough time of myself to do it. So I volunteered first at the church, and then when I found out I could help the community more by going to the military veteran community, I could do more for the community itself—the non-military community. I could do more for them. And we have. I've done so many things out—just even on Cruisin' Grand (A regular event with classic cars cruising on Grand Avenue in Downtown Escondido). Oh gosh. I talked to the non-military people, and they were—they're surprised! They're surprised with what I've done (laughs). I said—you know, that's one thing I like about volunteering now. You give your own life to the people when you volunteer. And it's good for you too, because you get satisfaction by volunteering. 01:11:54.265 --> 01:11:59.585 Thank you again for sharing your story. It has been my honor to help preserve it. 01:11:59.585 --> 01:13:24.744 Thank you for this interview, because I've given you so much to let you know how I felt, because I want that. I want people to know the feelings that we've had in the military. Many are—you know, I find that a lot of them are afraid to talk to people that aren't in the military, but I think they should know that we are there to be in their community. We like it. We're—actually, you know, most of us in the military are volunteers (laughs). Most of us were volunteers. And we did our service as best as we could. And they—the civilian community—they benefit from it. Because we know what volunteering means (laughs). So they will benefit from the volunteers (laughs). 01:13:24.744 --> 01:13:26.034 Thank you. 01:13:26.034 --> 01:13:28.034 Yes. Well, thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the &#13 ; creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BurkeGina_BeyerJason_2025-11-13.xml BurkeGina_BeyerJason_2025-11-13.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Burke, Gina. Interview November 13th, 2025 Description An account of the resource Gina Burke served during the Vietnam War as a First Lieutenant operating room nurse in the U.S. Army Nurse Corps. Burke spoke about her family background in the Philippines, immigration to the U.S., and father’s military service. She enlisted in the Army Nurse Corps so she could complete nursing school with financial aid. Burke deployed to Vietnam and served mostly as a scrub nurse at a time when operating room nurses were in high demand. Burke reflected on the difficult working conditions and traumatic experiences that characterized her wartime service. She spoke about her social life and experience as a woman in the military. In this oral history, Burke shared how the military shaped her life and worldview. She spoke about her transition to civilian life and struggles with PTSD. Burke reflected on how counseling, community service, and veteran associations helped her feel better about her military service. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-100 Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army Nurse Corps Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Catholics Tagalog language Cebuano language Iloko language World War, 1939-1945 MacArthur, Douglas, 1880-1964 Leyte, Battle of, Philippines, 1944 Nursing education Military nursing Fort Sam Houston (Tex.) Fort Bliss (Tex.) William Beaumont Army Medical Center (El Paso, Tex.) Travis Air Force Base (Calif.) Vietnam. Army of the Republic of Vietnam. Corps, 1st United States. Army. 95th Evacuation Hospital Quonset huts Scrub nurses Medical Civic Action Programs American National Red Cross Fort Hood (Tex.) San Marcos Vet Center (Calif.) San Diego VA Medical Center (San Diego, Calif.) Agent Orange Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States Vietnam Veterans of America, Inc. American Legion Palomar College (San Marcos, Calif.) Cruisin’ Grand (Escondido, Calif.) Post-traumatic stress disorder Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-11-13 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gina Burke Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Gina Burke Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam San Marcos (Calif.) Philippines California United States Leyte (Philippines) Cebu (Philippines) Luzon (Philippines) Denver (Colo.) Escondido (Calif.) El Paso (Tex.) Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam) Da Nang (Vietnam) San Diego County (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) Chula Vista (Calif.) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/20582a4d172be5bd1e5e48820e604c76.pdf 9893c4671e130fe239edd616a4ad1848 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Evans, Greg and Karen. Interview transcript, March 25, 2025. Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Greg Evans and Karen Evans, March 25, 2025. Greg and Karen Evans are a father-daughter team who co-create the syndicated comic strip, Luann. In this interview, they talk about their roles in creative process, the inspiration for Luann, and the evolution of the comic strip over its 40-year existence. Greg received an Honorary Doctorate of Fine Arts from CSU San Marcos in 2016. Karen Evans is also the newly elected president of the National Cartoonists Society. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Greg Evans Karen Evans Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-03-25 Subject The topic of the resource Cartooning -- technique Luann. Selections. Comic strip characters Comic books, strips, etc. Cartoonist Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) El Centro (Calif.) Merced (Calif.) Australia Colorado Spring (Co.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Greg Evans and Karen Evans Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EvansGregandKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-03-25_transcript Art and artists Community history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Greg Evans OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EvansGreg_and_Evans_Karen_FabbiJennifer_03-25-25_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Comic strip;Luann;Cartoonist;Arts OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Evans, Greg and Karen. Interview March 25, 2025. SC027-075 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Comic strip ; Luann ; Cartoonist ; Arts Greg Evans Karen Evans Jennifer Fabbi moving image EvansGreg_and Evans_Karen_FabbiJennifer_03-25-25_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/3091fa827e01d0bf084b61797484604f.mp4 Other video 5 Introduction Oral history interview of Greg and Karen Evans, March 25th, 2025, by Jennifer Fabbi, Special Collections Librarian, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 68 Summary of the “Luann” comic strip Greg Evans summarizes the evolving story of “Luann,” how Luann has aged over time, and how the comic strip is about finding your way through life. teenager ; Peanuts ; Garfield ; sitcom ; comedy 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 172 Business model of “Luann” Greg Evans describe the business model of “Luann” including how the creative process has changed with technology. syndication ; humor ; digital ; Cintiq 0 [""] 258 Creative process of “Luann” Greg and Karen Evans discuss the creative process of working on a comic strip and how they collaborate as they work on the strip together. Karen reflects on her perspective of Greg’s creative process when she was a child. creative ; director ; editor ; childhood ; drawing ; artist ; family legacy ; writing ; collaboration ; process ; screenplay ; Lynn Johnston ; For Better or For Worse ; Mary Worth 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 639 Serious issues in “Luann" Greg and Karen Evans discuss controversial content over the years. period ; censorship ; non-controversial ; teenagers ; educational ; drug dealer ; cancer ; moderate ; benign ; Zits 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 1086 Greg's creative experience before "Luann" Greg Evans discusses his desire to be a cartoonist from an early age and other comic strip ideas he had before “Luann.” He also reflects on how his daughter, Karen, was his inspiration for “Luann.” Disney Studios ; Peanuts ; Playboy magazine ; daughter ; family ; magazines ; cartooning ; career ; heart ; ideas 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 1420 Karen’s early experience with “Luann" The comic strip is loosely based on Karen’s life. Karen talks about her experience with “Luann” and the cartoonist community at an early age. Comic strip work is very flexible, which afforded the family to travel. travel ; Charles Schultz ; Sparky ; parents ; home ; Santa Rosa 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 1770 Interaction with fans Greg and Karen Evans discuss how they have engaged their “Luann” fans over the years, including interactive content and contests. "Luann" celebrated its fortieth anniversary in March 2025, and Greg and Karen describe the fan interaction designed for this milestone. GoComics ; fanbase ; community ; comments ; San Diego Comic-Con ; National Cartoonists Society ; voting ; fashion show ; engaged ; wedding ; LuannFan ; Luanniversary 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2556 Creation of musicals Greg Evans discusses his creation of several musicals over the years. Luann the Musical ; musical ; A Boy and A Girl ; Wrinkles ; Quibbling Siblings ; production ; GarageBand 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2912 Jobs before "Luann" Greg Evans talks about teaching and one of his early jobs, running MaXwel the robot. El Centro ; Merced ; Australia ; teacher ; television news ; Colorado Springs ; MaXwel the robot ; Seaport Village ; San Diego Zoo 0 ["[\"\"]"] 3238 Future of "Luann" Greg and Karen Evans talk about how they see “Luann” playing out in the future. graphic novel ; television show ; three dimension ; intellectual property ; opportunities ; community 0 ["[\"\"]"] 3579 Luann's journey to college Karen Evans the interview discussing the development of “Luann” and other main characters in the later years. Luann’s journey to colleges was also an exhibit at the CSUSM University Library during summer 2016. college ; graduate ; high school ; teenager ; adult ; exhibit ; CSUSM University Library 0 [""] oral history Greg and Karen Evans are a father-daughter team who co-create the syndicated comic strip, Luann. In this interview, they talk about their roles in creative process, the inspiration for Luann, and the evolution of the comic strip over its 40-year existence. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:05.375 --> 00:00:36.945 Hello, this is Jennifer Fabbi, and today I am interviewing Greg and Karen Evans for the California State University San Marcos (CSUSM) University Library Oral History Program. Today is March 25th, 2025, and this interview is taking place at Greg Evans' Studio at his home in San Marcos, California. Greg received an honorary doctorate of fine arts from CSUSM in 2016, so aka "Dr. Evans." Greg and Karen, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:36.945 --> 00:00:38.524 That's an honor.--Absolutely. 00:00:38.524 --> 00:01:03.104 Okay. So let's start out with a pretty general question. The two of you are very notable narrators as the co-creators of the syndicated comic strip, "Luann." For anyone listening, who might not be as familiar with "Luann," how would you summarize the strip? 00:01:03.104 --> 00:02:10.895 (Laughter) Right. Okay. Cut that part. Well, it's really changed and evolved over forty years. It started out as a--what they call a gag-a-day strip--very much like "Peanuts" or "Garfield." In fact, I was highly inspired by "Peanuts." The whole little kids with big heads, no parents. That's how "Luann" started--jokes about being a teenage girl. And as time went on, I introduced more characters and relationships and drama and trauma. And so the strip now has sort of evolved into a bit more of a comedic, dramatic, we call it like a sitcom, comic strip kind of a deal. And "Luann" has sort of officially aged a couple of times in the strip--had a birthday once and turned sixteen--anyway, now she's nineteen, she's in college. And new characters ; some old characters have left. But it's basically about-- 00:02:10.895 --> 00:02:12.224 Finding your way in life. 00:02:12.224 --> 00:02:15.944 Yeah. Finding your way through life. Yes. 00:02:15.944 --> 00:02:38.854 Yep. And I think a sitcom is a good way to put it, where you have a kind of a main character with Luann, that there's a whole cast around her and so there are stories that tap into all these different life experiences. What am I doing, and where am I going? It's a pretty universal theme. 00:02:38.854 --> 00:02:52.625 Okay. So would you discuss the current status of Luann including each of your roles in the creative and publishing process? 00:02:52.625 --> 00:04:19.605 Luann is syndicated through Universal Press Syndicate, which is, or--Andrew McMeel Universal--they changed their name. But there are these companies and their job is to sell comic strips and advice columns and crossword puzzles and those kinds of content to newspapers all around the country and the world. And so comic strips are a big part of what they're selling to these, to these papers. That's the basic business model, and my job is to create this strip and get it on time, uh, forever. And, more recently as newspapers have struggled, we've seen a decline in print clients, but the internet has picked up, so "Luann" is online, and there's some sharing of ad revenue and that sort of thing. So that's become sort of adjunct to the business model. I draw the strip by ha--I did draw the strip by hand on paper with markers for many, many years. I have a whole stack of 'em. Then I went digital about a decade ago and do it all now on this Cintiq with a pen. And then about-- 00:04:19.605 --> 00:04:20.605 A little over ten years ago. 00:04:20.605 --> 00:04:26.125 A little over ten years ago, she came along and complicated the whole process. 00:04:26.125 --> 00:04:52.084 (Laughter) I did. I did. So that was kind of interesting because "Luann" started when I was six. So this was very much something that was a part of how I grew up and just what my dad did. And really, when you see someone working on a comic strip, the thinking part of it often just looks like sort of staring out into space or napping plays a crucial role. 00:04:52.084 --> 00:04:53.125 And then it looks like this. (mimics being asleep) 00:04:53.125 --> 00:04:54.685 Yes. 00:04:54.685 --> 00:04:56.004 That's, that's being creative. 00:04:56.004 --> 00:04:58.483 You probably--do you wanna write those ideas down? 00:04:58.483 --> 00:04:59.584 I do. 00:04:59.584 --> 00:07:15.464 And then you'd see him drawing, and he had a home studio. So mostly what I saw as far as creating "Luann" looked like drawing. And I'm not a horrible artist, but I'm not drawn to drawing. So it wasn't something, like, I grew up thinking, oh, I wanna draw Luann someday. Anyways, flash forward, and we were driving to LA talking about the strip and how it's such a legacy in and of itself, and a family legacy, and wouldn't it be amazing if we had family that could, you know, be involved and carry it forward? And it dawned on us that there's the writing, and there's the drawing, and they don't necessarily have to come from the same person. And I've always had a draw to write and writing and storytelling. So we were like, well, maybe that would be fun. We'll give it a try. And it clicked pretty quickly. And then I appreciated how much work was happening that wasn't at the drawing board because the writing is, is crucial. So over those ten some years that I've been co co-working with you, the process kind of goes, we brainstorm big story ideas, and then it's now my responsibility to get the beats of that fleshed out. We do kind of phone and email chats. We'll meet in person--I only live fifteen minutes away. So, we'll make sure it's on the right trajectory, and then I come up with the initial draft, and it very much looks like a screenplay, where it's like, Monday is M, panel one is a 1, and then like L says, da, da da da da. Because interestingly, similar to a screenplay, like you don't put in a whole lot of details about what the set's supposed to look like or what the actors are supposed to do. That's the job of the director. So I feel like he's very much the director and takes that dialogue and then translates it. He'll do some tweaks or adjustments and then translates it into the performance, the art. And shares the art back to me. His wife, my mom Betty, plays a big role in that, too, like reviewing and making sure everything came through and the right number of buttons are on the shirts and all the pants and things. (Laughing) My mom has a really good knack for catching like, those things. 00:07:15.464 --> 00:07:22.845 She'll literally do that. She's like, in panel one, you drew seven buttons, but look, in panel three, there's only six. 00:07:22.845 --> 00:07:55.975 Yep. She's the detail, she's like the editor. And usually the process goes smoothly, but there's definitely times that we get going on the process, and the characters will rebel or come up with some angle that didn't happen until a lot of times it comes out in the drawing. Or as he's drawing, there's something that can be expressed better in the art than in the words that were originally drafted out. So you end up changing the words or eliminating words, and it's kind of a fascinating process. 00:07:55.975 --> 00:08:32.465 Years ago when I first started out, Lynn Johnston, who does, "For Better or For Worse," that comic strip, she said, "I'm not a writer, I'm just a transcriber 'cause my characters speak to me." And I, at the time, I thought, eh, that sounds like a lot of mumbo jumbo. (Laughter). But it's very true. It's very true. The characters take on lives of their own, and you're writing something and suddenly, oh, Luann decided to say that or do this instead of what I thought, you know? It's a weird, interesting thing. 00:08:32.465 --> 00:09:09.384 Or a character that wasn't supposed to be in the scene shows up and suddenly you're like, wha?? Or we'll brainstorm and have the perfect idea. It's so solid, it's so good. And then I'll sit down to write it and the characters are just standing there silent. (Laughter) No, not happening, not happening today. Yeah. And you push and you prod and then eventually go, okay, maybe we have to throw this premise out. And what are we doing instead? So it's pretty fascinating, I always describe it to people, it's like writing a sitcom in haiku 'cause we have such a little space to tell this story. And I think we, we pack a lot in. 00:09:09.384 --> 00:09:17.027 And still try to be funny. It's still marketed as a humor strip. You know, it's not a "Mary Worth" kind of a thing. 00:09:17.027 --> 00:09:18.154 A heavy drama. 00:09:18.154 --> 00:09:26.000 It's not heavy drama. And we avoid politics, religion, sex-- 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:27.315 --rock and roll. All those things. 00:09:27.315 --> 00:09:44.514 Anything that's controversial, because especially these days, it's real easy to get people riled up about different things. And you don't wanna annoy your newspaper editors and readers and have them cancel your strip, so pretty benign. 00:09:44.514 --> 00:10:22.683 Well, and that, our job is, we're in the business of entertainment. So as a comic strip, in particular, I feel like we're hoping to be relatable, be intriguing, and have a lighthearted look so even when we've had serious storylines or serious conflict in a strip, we're leading towards some purposeful growth or some humor layer that we're looking at those things. Because I don't know, the world is really serious and difficult, so getting to be on this side of make the world a little better and brighter is kinda awesome. 00:10:22.683 --> 00:10:39.195 I have a follow up about this. So you talk about it being lighthearted, but over the years it's also featured some serious issues and historical moments. So would you give a few, a couple of examples of the issues you've tackled? 00:10:39.195 --> 00:12:01.284 Well, as I started doing the strip, like I said, at first it was just jokes about boys and hair and stuff. Well, after a while, I mean, how many jokes can you do about hair and boys? So, I started getting into, I realized if I'm doing a strip about teenagers, there's a certain huge world here to talk about in a responsible way. So I kind of thought, well, the strip should maybe try to be entertaining but maybe informative or inspirational in some fashion, or even educational. So fairly early on, I started doing topics along those lines. So I did one about a drug dealer that tried to get Bernice involved in his life. And probably the most significant one I did was way back in '91. Luann had her first period, and it was a two-week storyline that a lot of it was, well, a lot of Luann was right here (gestures at Karen). But I didn't want to, I didn't want to do a story about her after, you know, so I wanted to precede her on that one. Otherwise-- 00:12:01.284 --> 00:12:15.284 Yeah. "Luann," I think, was inspired often, but I always correct people it's not autobiographical or biographical to our family or my life, but that was a good thing that this storyline happened before I had my own personal experience. 00:12:15.284 --> 00:12:15.725 Yeah. 00:12:15.725 --> 00:12:18.465 Separate. Separate, but awesome. 00:12:18.465 --> 00:13:58.000 So, I approached the syndicate and said, "This is what I want to do." And they went, "No, no, no, we don't do this in a comic strip." And I said, "I think there's a way to do it." So I wrote, I rewrote, I wrote, and rewrote and sent them stuff back-and-forth it went until we finally got it. Okay. Little kids could read this and not really know maybe what they're talking about. We're not going to use the P-word or anything like that in here. However, they wanted me to do two additional weeks of just regular "Luann" strips for any newspapers that opted not to run the period strips. So I did those, and out of three hundred newspaper clients, two of 'em opted not to run the period and ran those, those other ones. If "Luann" is, you know, remembered historically for anything, it'll probably be for that series. I did get lots of email--or mail back then--from and mostly supportive. There was those who said, This does not belong on the comic page. I come to the comics for entertainment and for a laugh, and you have this. You know, How do I explain this to my ten-year-old daughter? This kind of thing. But then you get other people, school nurses who say, I get girls in here who have no idea what's going on, and they're horrified and terrified, and so thank you. This was a wonderful thing. So that was probably the biggest one we did. And then we did a thing on Mothers Against Driving Drunk is, I think it's called. 00:13:58.000 --> 00:13:58.495 I think that's, yeah. 00:13:58.495 --> 00:14:02.284 And we've done a thing for firefighters. 00:14:02.284 --> 00:14:04.105 Delta had cancer. 00:14:04.105 --> 00:14:06.475 Yeah. One of my characters had cancer. 00:14:06.475 --> 00:14:27.095 And went through treatments for that and yeah, we had a toxic--verging on an abusive--relationship that we worked through and yeah. I'm trying to think what else we've done. 00:14:27.095 --> 00:14:54.725 Are there--so thinking about this--having to create the two weeks in case someone opted out, and there were only two that opted out of three hundred. Are there any--so that feels a little like censorship to me. So is there any other time that you have wanted to do something that you have felt kind of censored in your process? 00:14:54.725 --> 00:15:42.625 Mm, not really, because I'm a pretty mild, moderate kind of a guy, so "Luann" has always been pretty, like I said, pretty benign. Although I remember early in the strip I did a joke where I used the word zits talking about, Oh, I have zits. And I sent it in, and they wrote back and said, "You know, people don't want to be eating their breakfast and their eggs and reading about zits, so can we change it to blemishes?" And I thought, what teen girl says oh my blemishes? But it was changed. Okay. Then a few years later, what comes along? A comic strip called Zits. (Laughter) 00:15:42.625 --> 00:17:29.174 Who knows, who knows? I think there's a fine line too, between feeling, and we've been, we've been really fortunate, like all the syndicates you've worked for, or worked with, have been supportive. They're--they trust, they're there to work with creators. We have an editor who reviews everything, and sometimes they'll catch things that like, you know, we've used a phrase or something that we don't know there's a larger cultural context, or like, in some places this might be misconstrued and oh, I didn't know it was used that way. So we do have editorial oversight, I guess, but very much trust in the creators and the characters and what this comic strip is. But that being said, we're mindful of who and what our audience is. Like, we are in newspapers. That's very different than a book that somebody is going to a certain section or a certain age group. If you're thinking about newspapers, they come to a home, and anybody in that home could have access to the newspaper. And a lot of the newspaper page is meant to be shared. And what's on the comics page is kind of all ages material from things that are aimed for younger readers to more adult content. So being mindful of your audience and what that experience is. And I think that's part of why for us, there have been storylines, especially as the characters have aged, like, they're nineteen-year-olds. There's quite a few things that nineteen-year-olds are interested in, curious about, or doing that we're just not gonna address because of where our material goes out and who the potential audience is. That being said, I think we've done some clever work to acknowledge that our characters are at nineteen, and there are adult things happening in their lives. And that's kind of an interesting challenge sometimes, I think. 00:17:29.174 --> 00:17:29.184 Yeah. 00:17:29.184 --> 00:17:53.884 But there are, there are, there are things going on in our characters' lives that I'm sure they would like to talk about or share, and we're just, the medium that we're in is not the right fit for that. But as far as feeling a sense of censorship, I think that zits example is the best one. (Laughter) Thankfully. Minor, thankfully. 00:17:53.884 --> 00:18:06.755 Okay, so now we're going back to the beginning. So for Greg, what was your creative experience prior to creating "Luann" and what was your inspiration for "Luann?" 00:18:06.755 --> 00:19:32.685 Well, I was born to be a cartoonist, I think. I always loved cartooning. I'd sit in my bedroom for hours on end drawing cartoons. I grew up in Burbank, not far from Disney Studios. Thought I'd get a job as an animator or something there. Later found out how good of a draftsman you need to be to be an animator. You have to be able to draw characters all positions. And I'm, I'm not that good. And then my parents took the Saturday Evening Post, and they had cartoons in there, and I loved those. And I found out somehow that wait a minute, people are doing these and getting paid to draw these cartoons? I'd like to do that too. And then discovered comics in the newspaper and "Peanuts," of course, was so huge at the time. And I thought, yeah, I could do this with my kind of limited drawing skills and my interest in writing and telling stories and jokes. This seems like a perfect fit for my particular set of talents. And so I started coming up with ideas for comic strips, probably, I don't know, when I was in college, my first ones. And I had sent single panel jokes to all the magazines. In fact, I can show you here. I sent this one. Does that show up okay? 00:19:32.685 --> 00:19:35.233 It does. I can see it. 00:19:35.233 --> 00:19:56.904 (Greg shows sketch.) This I sent to Playboy magazine when I was 11 years old. (Laughter) So it's Joe the Plumber "Pluming,"and he's getting out of his truck in the toilet seat. And there's my elaborate signature with all those blades of grass that I drew by hand. I figured I'm gonna really earn my money here. Rejected that. 00:19:56.904 --> 00:20:03.743 But I think it's important to note that he had heard some how, some way that Playboy was one of the top paying-- 00:20:03.743 --> 00:20:05.075 --Yes. They paid the most. 00:20:05.075 --> 00:20:11.914 They paid the most, which is that's true. They paid very well for their comics. So he was, you know, financially strategic there. 00:20:11.914 --> 00:20:11.924 I was, yes. 00:20:11.924 --> 00:20:14.445 How did you know that? At eleven? 00:20:14.445 --> 00:20:16.714 At eleven I wanted to make a lot of money 00:20:16.714 --> 00:20:20.275 Guessing older contacts. How would you have known that? 00:20:20.275 --> 00:20:24.914 Yeah, I don't know. Uh, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. (Laughter) 00:20:24.914 --> 00:20:26.605 Like, read it somewhere. No idea. 00:20:26.605 --> 00:22:09.315 Read it somewhere, you know, I was always looking for articles or information about cartooning as a career, you know, it's hard to find 'cause it's kind of a weird off the thing. But yeah, so I sent off the one cartoon and that, you know, then I waited for the bunnies to roll up in the, in the limo and Hugh Hefner {Laughter). Walk to my door and hand me my check for $250. But that didn't happen. But anyway, I submitted to every magazine, and then I started submitting to the syndicates--comic strips--and I probably submitted fifteen or so of those. Here's one of the very first ones I submitted. (Greg shows comic strip.) Real simple, Just a little two guys. That was gonna be my whole premise of the whole strip is just these two guys talking and saying funny things. How long would that have been interesting? (Laughter) I don't think so. I don't know. And then I had ideas that I didn't know anything about. Like, here's one, that was sort of an inner city thing. "Seamy Heights." (Greg shows comic strip.) "Seamy Heights," and it had cops and it had guns and all these kinds of things. Well, I don't know anything about being a cop or inner-city life. So I was coming, you know, out of my brain instead of my heart trying to come up with ideas that, let's see, I'm looking at the comics, and there's nothing here about clowns in the circus, so I'll do that. You know? Then Karen, at about age five or six one day was walking around all dressed up in Betty's dress and high heels and stuff. 00:22:09.315 --> 00:22:09.712 Gotten into her makeup, 00:22:09.712 --> 00:23:10.565 Got into the makeup, and I thought, hmm, maybe I should do something about a kind of a saucy little, little girl. And so I started working on that idea, and somehow she told me that she should be thirteen. I just aged her to thirteen instead of, of young. And because it's a lot more juicy material at that age. So, uh, and then boy, the ideas just came like crazy. I set her in this family based on our family. She, Luann, has a brother who's three years older, just like Karen does and all that. And now I was writing, it was coming from my heart instead of from my head. And I knew this, this is probably gonna be the one. Sent it off and it got accepted. So, I got to do what I always wanted to do my whole life and be a cartoonist. 00:23:10.565 --> 00:23:14.182 I love that. Coming from your heart instead of your head. 00:23:14.182 --> 00:23:14.483 Yeah. Yeah. 00:23:14.483 --> 00:23:40.000 Because it was related to your family. Right. So we've talked a little bit about how "Luann" is based on Karen, Karen's life, but not too closely. It's not autobiographical. Karen, what was this like? Were you knowledgeable of this? What was this like for you? And tell me a little bit about that. 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:56.934 Well, I guess when I was younger, before Luann started, my dad made a living running a robot for entertainment. So that was normal in my house. 00:23:56.934 --> 00:23:59.541 (Greg shows photo of MaXwel the robot.} There may be people around from longer ago. Who remember. 00:23:59.541 --> 00:24:00.845 Yeah. So MaXwel, the robot. 00:24:00.845 --> 00:24:05.704 MaXwel the robot, he was at, I did Seaport Village, I did the zoo, I did all kinds of stuff. 00:24:05.704 --> 00:26:33.815 So dad would stand in the crowd with a, with a little hidden microphone that he had, then a bag with the controls. So he'd stand in the crowd and control this robot, and the robot would do like, crowd interactions and had some music it could play and some tricks with--like, its hat would spin and jokes and this whole thing. So that was normal in my young childhood. And then it transitioned, and there were a few years that they overlapped so he was running the robot and doing a comic strip. So then it transitioned right about the time that I would've started school, that he was now staying home and doing a comic strip. So I guess my point is I didn't have this experience, where I could compare it to what most kids' dads might have been doing, or like a typical nine-to-five sort of situation. So for a long time it just seemed normal. Now that being said, I was aware that this is something where my friends knew about it, and their families read it, and we got to do interesting things relating to meeting other cartoonists. We did a trip later, when I was like nine. We did a motor home trip traveling around, and we visited, like Jim Davis and we Sparky--so Charles Schultz--lived in Santa Rosa and had an ice skating rink that's still there and put on these amazing holiday like escapades on ice. And so many years that was a Christmas tradition. We'd go up because dad had become friends with Sparky. So like, we're at a table having dinner with Sparky. I got my first pair of roller blades from Sparky because his daughter had been on the cusp, like the cutting edge of roller blades, and they were selling them there. Like you kind of realize that's, that's special. But it wasn't until maybe later in my teen years that I had a little more perspective on what, like, how unusual this is as just a career, and that the lifestyle it afforded us as a family to be able to have someone who was there working from home. Like I always had a parent who could be home because that's where he worked. And that it was flexible enough that we were able to do some, like, travel things and you didn't have to, you know, navigate the time off with your coworkers and it's such a headache. So it wasn't until I was older that I really understood how rare and unique and, uh, special it is. I think-- 00:26:33.815 --> 00:26:45.035 --Just, I think it, it's a rare job in, in the sense that you, I can bank work so I can really work hard and bank that stuff. Get it ahead, send it. 00:26:45.035 --> 00:26:47.785 How far in advance do they require that you send it then? 00:26:47.785 --> 00:26:48.714 Six weeks. 00:26:48.714 --> 00:26:49.464 Oh, okay. 00:26:49.464 --> 00:26:57.224 Six weeks. But when we took that motor home trip, I worked ahead a whole three months, sent it off and-- 00:26:57.224 --> 00:26:57.825 Off you go. 00:26:57.825 --> 00:27:04.424 Off we go. And I don't, I can't think of many other jobs where you can, you know, where you can do that. 00:27:04.424 --> 00:27:39.000 And without having to be like, let me get permission. This is a special, special circumstance. I mean, all the syndicate just needs 365 days of work to put out. And, how you get it done. I mean, I know there are some other cartoonists that will do, we know one that he does six months of the year. He writes a whole year and draws a whole year of his material. And so that the other six months he can do any other travel or work projects or creative things he wants. Some people are very seat of the pants and others are, they're banking, and they have years of work in advance. It's really interesting. 00:27:39.000 --> 00:28:07.835 Yeah, some of 'em will do, instead of one strip a day, they'll do two. So in no time they're way ahead. And then there's other cartoonists, who don't get inspiration until the FedEx truck is pulling up to their door. (Laughter) And then there's others like Garry Trudeau who does "Doonesbury." So his is very topical and timely. So, he's right on deadline, everything is Fedexed, overnighted, and that kind of thing. 00:28:07.835 --> 00:29:05.065 So, yeah, now I--and even as I got older and realized this was rare and special--it wasn't until I started working with him that I understand not only how it's rare and special, but what just unique storytelling and a unique model as a creative it is. I'm so grateful for as long as we can hold onto the syndication model because we have, there's a team and their job is to handle distribution and promotion and sales. And our job is purely creative. And that's increasingly rare as a creative person. You've gotta have, you know, you're out there hustling and hustling or self-publishing or trying to hold people's attention and to have a, a creative outlet where we still do have, there are a lot of our fans are still getting newspapers, and it's our creative materials delivered literally to their doorstep every single day. 00:29:05.065 --> 00:29:07.825 And then put into the bird cage on the bottom. 00:29:07.825 --> 00:29:17.984 Yes. I was gonna say we're very humbled, but yeah, we are, we're, we're literally humbled as well. So yeah. That's pretty awesome. 00:29:17.984 --> 00:29:28.634 So speaking of your fans, you have quite an active fan base and I am wondering how you interact with your fans. 00:29:28.634 --> 00:30:58.526 Yeah, that has changed a lot. And when did GoComics launch, fifteen years ago? It's longer than we think. So GoComics is the website where "Luann" shows up online, and that is, our syndicate still does the newspaper side, but they had the forethought to go, this is, we need a, a backup plan. So they have the largest online presence for comics. and that was really interesting because when you're in the paper, you would get letters, but outside of that, you don't know if your fans are even reading it or what they think. But now there's an online comments section, and we don't spend a whole lot of time there 'cause it'll make you crazy trying to navigate people. But we have a very, very passionate fan base, and it's kind of neat to go in and see how people respond, what they latch onto, what they completely misunderstood, which is always really curious, I guess. I mean, we have some fans on there that are like, I've been reading this from day one and I've--they've read the whole archive--digital archive--if it's available. I've read it multiple times through. And their version of Bernice, the main character, is just like, how they perceive her based on their life experiences and their interpretation is so different from how we're meaning her to be portrayed. So it's kind of-- 00:30:58.526 --> 00:31:27.724 --And what's really fun about these online comment community is, you know, previously yes, I'd get mail from here, there, and everywhere, but the readers didn't interact in any way. Now these readers, they're, they're involved not just with the strip, but with each other. And so you'll see little birthday greetings or oh, sorry about your dog, or, you know, those kinds of things. Oh, hey, here's a new recipe. You know, so it's not always about, just about "Luann." So. 00:31:27.724 --> 00:31:32.585 It's, it's a real community. It's a real community. They watch out for each other and-- 00:31:32.585 --> 00:31:49.825 -- Yeah. Yeah. And they, they tend to push down the trolls and the, and the negative kinds of people and keep them, because I don't think there's anybody at the syndicate that's reading every comment and pulling things out. 00:31:49.825 --> 00:33:20.805 No, they have like a moderation system, but you kinda' have to flag somebody, and then they'll come in to intervene. But we have a very sort of, somehow our commenters, and I think it's partially because of, like we described the tone of what the strip is, they want it to be a friendly community, and while they're open to everybody having different opinions, they don't appreciate it when people are being particularly negative or harsh or, you know, attacking each other. So it's kind of, it's kind of inspiring. So we have that going on. And then we've been going to Comic-Con for a number of years. Dad's been going to San Diego Comic-Con for decades, and I started going again with him. And so we have fans that always find us every year at Comic-Con. We're at the National Cartoonists Society booth, so it's like a little bit of a treasure hunt to find us, because we don't have a "Luann" booth that you could look up in the directory. But that's always really fun to see some of our longtime fans that have become friends and how have you been and what have you been up to the last year? And then we have people miraculously who wander through Comic-Con and find us and are fans and some that didn't know about us that become fans. And that's, that's pretty special 'cause you're interacting live with people. So we enjoy that. And then a few years back, well, let's see, we started some fan interactions. So the first one was the fashion show. Is there anything before that? 00:33:20.805 --> 00:33:23.881 Or voting? I think it was voting. 00:33:23.881 --> 00:33:24.843 Oh, right. 00:33:24.843 --> 00:33:25.795 So Luann was-- 00:33:25.795 --> 00:33:27.404 twenty-eight years ago 00:33:27.404 --> 00:33:42.809 --gonna go to the prom or something. And Gunther wants to take her, but she wants to go with Aaron Hill. Which one should she pick? Or how should it, I forgot what the exact question was. But we posed this question to the readers in the newspaper. So they had to send a postcard-- 00:33:42.809 --> 00:33:47.164 --Like choose your own adventure? 00:33:47.164 --> 00:33:58.954 Yeah. And then, and mail it in. And then six weeks later there were results, and here's how it went and showed the results. 00:33:58.954 --> 00:34:15.425 Yeah. And a lot of people participated. So all the postcards got sent, I think sent to the syndicate, but it wasn't like one or two. So, you know, hundreds of people sent in votes of Gunther or Aaron, and the storyline proceeded according to their winning votes. 00:34:15.425 --> 00:35:03.232 And then the fashion show--that was a huge thing. I had this idea of let's do a fashion show but involve readers in some fashion, in some way. So it was, there was a thing in the strip that said there's gonna be a "Luann" fashion show if you'd like to submit drawings of the characters, and it doesn't have to be the characters, but let's see your fashions. You know, oh my gosh, we got sixty thousand--we got some incredible number of drawings. Some people, you know, some, it was a crayon thing on a napkin, but others was like, somebody sent patterns that you would put and cut, you know, cut the fabric from to make the thing. And, uh, it was, it was just amazing. 00:35:03.232 --> 00:35:04.039 It was awesome. 00:35:04.039 --> 00:35:04.832 It was just amazing. 00:35:04.832 --> 00:35:05.019 This was in like-- 00:35:05.019 --> 00:35:08.905 Then we had the fashion show in the strip, and we were able to show a whole bunch of these drawings. 00:35:08.905 --> 00:35:12.244 --ninety-four or ninety-five, maybe. 00:35:12.244 --> 00:35:12.938 The year? 00:35:12.938 --> 00:35:13.492 Yeah. 00:35:13.492 --> 00:35:14.324 Yeah, I think so. 00:35:14.324 --> 00:35:54.387 But the point being, it wasn't something you could email in or digitally upload. So this was all physically mailed. And I remember, again, it was sent to the syndicate and then they shipped it and sitting in the living room with just a sea of submissions and so amazing to see what people were up to. Little notes they'd include and how they interpreted characters, those who had, you know, drawn a Luann or Crystal or whomever it was, and address them in these fashions. So it was really cool. And then those fashions, he kind of translated that more directly into the strip. So-- 00:35:54.387 --> 00:35:55.605 How did you choose? 00:35:55.605 --> 00:35:56.715 I don't know how you chose it. 00:35:56.715 --> 00:36:54.525 Yeah, I don't know. That was tough. I mean, some of the stuff was inappropriate. Of course, those, but yeah, no, there was a lot of good stuff, and I wanted to show as much as I could. So I talked to the syndicate, and I said, "Is there a way that we can divide the country, all my clients into like a quadrant? So all the newspaper clients up here where submissions came from, and those winners they'll get that in their paper?" So I did four different versions of this two-week presentation of this thing. And so it was able--the great result of that was some kid would get notified that your, your thing is in the paper. And oh my gosh, they'd do a big story, a local story about the local kid who made it into "Luann." It was really cool. 00:36:54.525 --> 00:36:55.313 It was super cool. 00:36:55.313 --> 00:36:56.339 It was a lot of fun. 00:36:56.339 --> 00:36:57.108 Yeah, it was super cool. 00:36:57.108 --> 00:36:58.271 Yeah. That was, that was a huge-- 00:36:58.271 --> 00:37:01.815 It makes me wonder now when we look at GoComics, so it has the archive on there, but it only has one-- 00:37:01.815 --> 00:37:04.367 It would only have one of those. 00:37:04.367 --> 00:37:05.789 One of those. I wonder which one of those they chose. 00:37:05.789 --> 00:37:08.635 Good question. I, yeah. I don't know. 00:37:08.635 --> 00:37:10.914 Like, gotta dig up the other three. 00:37:10.914 --> 00:37:12.585 Yeah. 00:37:12.585 --> 00:37:21.164 So the fashion show was a success and then many years later, Brad and Toni would've been the next one, right? 00:37:21.164 --> 00:37:22.184 I think so. 00:37:22.184 --> 00:40:22.695 So Brad and Toni--Luann's brother, Brad, and his girlfriend Toni--dramatic dating story, evolution of Brad as a human being. They're getting ready, they get engaged, and fans were so into the story of this couple and their life and Brad's growth from this kind of like pointless slob to a firefighter. And he had all this purpose. And so we decided we wanted to do some wedding stuff. So we built out luannefan.com. That's how it got started, as a place for us to build these wedding-related activities. So we posted photo albums, which were collections of chapters in their dating story 'cause they dated seven, eight years in the strip. So you could go back and revisit from the beginning and reread these strips collected together. We had a wedding wishes, so people could send in their wedding wishes and good thoughts for Brad and Toni. And people wrote these lovely, you know, advice. And it's been so inspiring watching you as a couple. I mean, these people are so real to us and to our, to our readers. It was just sweet. As firefighters, we had them, instead of gifts you could choose, you know, sort of a gift registry. You could donate to a firefighters fund. And people did do that. And then the big thing was a wedding dress competition. So, similar to the fashion show, submit your designs, but this time we had digital technology so people could upload their designs and then upvote what--so it wasn't us choosing-- up vote, up vote, up vote. And that was pretty neat. I think we ended up with like forty-six thousand votes on wedding dresses and six hundred some dress designs uploaded. And a lot of neat participation. And then the winning dress design was translated. And that's what Toni wore in the wedding with a little, you know, call out and congratulations. So that was really cool. So we have a lot of fan interaction. And then we revived the Luann Fan a few years back and have started a monthly newsletter that we send out where we're sharing some, you know, little behind the scenes stories and tips--not tips--tidbits about, you know, how the current storyline came to be or oddball stuff from our lives. Just as a way to engage with fans. So that's been awesome. We just did our fortieth anniversary and big positive, happy wishes from fans and people wanting to join the newsletter and people sending great, beautiful, sweet comments on online. Very lucky to have a wonderful fan base. 00:40:22.695 --> 00:40:23.835 Forty years. 00:40:23.835 --> 00:40:25.005 Yeah. Forty years. 00:40:25.005 --> 00:40:32.715 I got a chance to look at all of your stuff from, from the day, from the Sunday. The video that you did and-- 00:40:32.715 --> 00:40:34.125 Yeah. 00:40:34.125 --> 00:40:35.864 It's really cool. The Luanniversary. 00:40:35.864 --> 00:40:36.958 The Luanniversary. 00:40:36.958 --> 00:40:37.621 Yeah. 00:40:37.621 --> 00:40:40.594 The one good thing about naming her Luann. 00:40:40.594 --> 00:40:40.605 Yeah. 00:40:40.605 --> 00:40:53.414 It translates to LuannFan is catchy and Luanniversary is perfect. Otherwise a lot of people, it's a hard name to remember or spell correctly. Too many spelling variants. 00:40:53.414 --> 00:41:11.914 Right. That one n gets me every time. (Laughter) Now I remember. Okay. I'm gonna switch gears a little bit. So Greg, you have a long history with CSU San Marcos and can you tell us about your CSUSM connections? 00:41:11.914 --> 00:41:15.284 Connections with San Marcos? 00:41:15.284 --> 00:41:16.244 With CSUSM. 00:41:16.244 --> 00:43:49.936 Oh, with, with university. Yeah. Well, let's see. We moved here in 1980, and that's five years before the strip started. And I ran the robot. And then got the strip going. And a couple of, a couple of interesting things, too, about San Marcos. People have asked me, where'd the name Luann come from? I didn't have a name for this character. I just knew I wanted something kind of not, she wasn't a Tiffany, you know. And I was driving around one day and there was a construction company that used to be in San Marcos called Louetto Construction. And they had their truck sitting out somewhere. Lou, I like the Lou part, not the etto. Uh, so Luann and then Aaron Hill, Luann's heartthrob, where we lived before we lived here, we lived sort of on a hill. And our son, Gary, his best friend lived on the adjacent hill. And his name was Aaron. Aaron Hill. I mean, how high two As, and then a hill. So that's the ultimate, the ultimate thing. Then I don't remember how I met Meryl Goldberg exactly, I can't recall. But she's the one who said, "You know, you should write a Luann musical." I said, "I should?" Okay. Well, when I was a kid, I took piano for about a year-and-a-half and hated it and quit. And I wish I hadn't, but I, you know, I can kind of find notes and chords a little bit. So I thought, well, I don't know, maybe I could write some songs, and I could certainly write a script. I mean, it's what I do anyway. So I took a bunch of actual "Luann" gags and situations from the strip and sort of wove 'em together into "Scenes in a Teen's Life" idea for a musical. And it was put on by Rancho Buena Vista High School, over at the California Center for the Arts. We did it there and turned out really nicely. So yeah, that was, I think, sort of my start with the relationship there. And then, I think it's when the art building opened. Yeah, the art building had opened-- 00:43:49.936 --> 00:43:50.815 --the Arts Council? 00:43:50.815 --> 00:44:02.014 and I think that's where maybe I met Meryl there at that. So anyway, kind of got involved with all of that. And then the, you know, the fundraisers and-- 00:44:02.014 --> 00:44:09.114 I think some of it, I would imagine, overlaps with mom's connections in San Marcos. 00:44:09.114 --> 00:44:09.795 The university? 00:44:09.795 --> 00:44:13.255 Is that how some of that would overlap? 00:44:13.255 --> 00:44:30.614 I think they're a little bit separate. My wife Betty was on the city council and ran for mayor. And then she was on the Vallecitos Board, uh, Water District Board. So we've had deep connections here in the city. 00:44:30.614 --> 00:44:41.164 I was just thinking if she would've been part of connections with Cal State because I know she was as a city council person like involved in why the university got to be here and-- 00:44:41.164 --> 00:44:55.235 Yeah, I don't know, a little. She certainly was there when the city hall was built. Mom was part of that whole thing, so, yeah. 00:44:55.235 --> 00:45:04.594 What about, so you mentioned that you had written the "Luann" musical, "Luann the Musical." You have written some other plays too, right? 00:45:04.594 --> 00:46:02.000 Yeah. So that one was kind of fun to do. I mean, I didn't realize that nobody writes a musical. But, you know, I have my little keyboard, and I use a program called Garage Band. So you can layer in sounds and drum lines and this basic stuff, and I write these little songs, and then I hire a guy to do the arranging so that a band, you know, can play these things. So yeah. I wrote a "Luann" show, and then I wrote one called "Wrinkles" about getting old, and it premiered, I think at the Lawrence Welk Theater. Appropriate. "A Boy and a Girl," about two infants born on the same day. And then their relationship as they grow older. And Sibling, uh-- 00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:03.364 "Quibbling Siblings." 00:46:03.364 --> 00:46:09.045 "Quibbling Siblings," which is about a brother and a sister who do nothing but argue all the time. 00:46:09.045 --> 00:46:10.105 Okay. 00:46:10.105 --> 00:46:20.315 And those have all been put on locally. And a few places have done the "Luann," it's available beyond just like the local networks. And so there are places that have put on-- 00:46:20.315 --> 00:46:40.045 Yeah, "Luann" got picked up by a publisher, and it's out there, and it's probably been done, I don't know, twenty times over the years. "Wrinkles" is also with a publisher, but it's never been, she never managed to get it produced. And the other two are sitting on my computer. 00:46:40.045 --> 00:46:43.485 I did get to see "A Boy and a Girl"--at the Patio? 00:46:43.485 --> 00:46:44.071 Yes. 00:46:44.071 --> 00:46:46.125 Oh, at Patio. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:46:46.125 --> 00:46:49.295 I want to say maybe it was 2019. It was right before Covid. 00:46:49.295 --> 00:47:09.324 Right before Covid. Our scale for everything--before or after Covid. Yeah. "A Boy and a Girl" was fun 'cause that one, we got to--so before Dad wrote a musical, there was a "Luann" musical created by someone else in early nineties? Late eighties? 00:47:09.324 --> 00:47:10.525 The late eighties, probably. 00:47:10.525 --> 00:48:09.954 Late eighties. And the young woman who played Luann locally in the eighties grew up to be a very successful actress and performer here locally. And, came on and directed and developed "A Boy and a Girl." So that was kind of a cool roundabout thing. Like this person who, it's not like there was some deep connection back from the eighties, but over time, turns out, here's Bets showing up in our lives. Back again. And helping develop "A Boy and a Girl." And that got staged in the garage here for the first production. You gotta' figure out all the staging and how do you block this and what do we do and let's rehearse it. 'Cause it's, that was pretty cool. I thought that was cool. I got to stage direct, so I learned what that means. And I was like, this is a lot of work. (Laughter) 00:48:09.954 --> 00:48:17.644 Well you think writing a comic strip is hard. Try writing a good musical and it's really hard. 00:48:17.644 --> 00:48:30.284 I have to go back to the robot and ask about the robot. How did that come about? Did you build the robot? Did you, how did that come about? And you said that you donated it to CSUSM? 00:48:30.284 --> 00:50:31.284 Yes, I did. Okay. Yes. When my wife and I were both, went to school and got degrees to be school teachers. So, my first job was out in El Centro. I was a school teacher, and Betty was in Merced. She was a school teacher. We got married, we were in El Centro. I think it was Betty who saw a notice about Australia, shortage of teachers down there. They're getting Americans to come down and teach. We signed up, We got accepted, and Betty and I taught in Australia for two years. Came home. Now what? And I found out I'm not a good teacher. I didn't really enjoy it. Betty's awesome. I'm not that good. what should I do? Well, we ended up, for some reason in Colorado Springs, we ended up there. Oh, I know. There was a possible teaching job for me there, which didn't pan out. Oh-oh, now what? Well then there was an opening at a local TV station for a part-time, split-shift job running the camera for the evening news. So I would go in, yeah. So I would go in and stand at the camera with the headphones on for half an hour at five o'clock for that one. And then go home and then come back for the nine o'clock, do the same thing, and aim the camera and stand there and then go home. And that's what I did there. The station that I worked for, for some reason, decided to buy a robot. It was built by a guy there locally, and this is what he did. He sold these little R2-D2 kind of robots 'cause Star Wars was huge. So the station bought one, and they needed someone to run this thing. Because it is like a RC car, a little radio-controlled thing. And I had a van and they said, "Greg, why don't you go ahead and run this robot around?" 00:50:31.284 --> 00:50:33.083 It was like a promotional idea. 00:50:33.083 --> 00:53:28.000 It was a promotional thing. Yeah. So, I would go out with this little robot and show up at different events, you know, to promote the station. That's what I did. And I found out, oh, I'm pretty good at this. I'm not an actor, I'm not a performer, I'm not a comedian, but put me behind the scenes, and I can do okay. So standing in the crowd with a little microphone and saying funny stuff, and it's coming out over there, and the robot is moving and interacting with the crowd. That was perfect for my nature. That suited me very well. And I did a good job at it. And we had been wanting to come back to California. We really missed--we were--Betty and I were both natives, and we had the kids in Colorado Springs and we were, let's go. So packed up, bought a robot of our own from this guy, and landed here in San Diego and thought, okay, here we go. What do I do? So I started just going to the local malls, and I'd go around with this robot and bit by bit, I got contracts to come back and do things and do that. And so I was at Seaport Village every weekend for years, and I was at the San Diego Zoo entertaining the lines of people, while they were waiting to go in. I did the California State Fair. I did a lot of corporate events and parties and all just tons of stuff. I was really busy to the point where I, I bought a second robot thinking I could franchise this thing and find someone, you know, to run the other (robot). Well, that's hard. You need someone who's basically unemployed because your gigs come up all the time, and who has a van and who has a strong back and could lift this robot? So the franchise idea didn't go anywhere. I just always wanted to be a cartoonist, anyway. Thank goodness that got going. Yeah. Then I retired MaXwel, and Meryl said--you know--Meryl, she's always got an idea. "Well, you know, maybe you could donate it to the University. We could find someone who would run it and he would represent the ARTES program. And so he would go to schools and promote art and maybe we have an assistant who goes with him and together they're doing"--you know, she had all these ideas, and they got a van. And I made a wrap to go on this van that had MaXwel and then all this kind of artsy sort of things all over the van. And I had lost track of whatever became of that program. I don't know. Yeah. So that Max, I have two robots. That MaXwel is, I don't know where, and the other one is in our shed-- 00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:29.000 You still have-- 00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:31.000 in a box. Ready to go.. 00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:33.784 Maybe that's what I should be learning to do. 00:53:33.784 --> 00:53:35.074 You should. Yeah. 00:53:35.074 --> 00:53:36.744 I'll follow your career. But in reverse. 00:53:36.744 --> 00:53:39.644 Can you grow a beard? It is helpful to have the beard. 00:53:39.644 --> 00:53:44.000 Beard is helpful. I'll look into that. There's some sort of injections, I'm sure. 00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:48.715 Something. Hormones (Laughter) 00:53:48.715 --> 00:53:57.945 Okay. Well after forty years of blood, sweat, and tears, what is the future of "Luann?" 00:53:57.945 --> 00:54:00.204 Future of Luann? 00:54:00.204 --> 00:54:06.704 Mmm. 00:54:06.704 --> 00:54:10.835 Keep going. That's it. That's it. I don't know. We're-- 00:54:10.835 --> 00:54:12.474 You have a huge family legacy. 00:54:12.474 --> 00:54:25.425 Yeah. We love what we do. He loves what he does. It's all he ever wanted to do, and he gets to do it. And I think working together has kept it interesting. 00:54:25.425 --> 00:54:46.945 Yeah. At this point I thought I'd be phoning it in, you know, but it's engaging and fun more than ever because of working together. And as long as newspapers survive or the internet can keep things going, and there's an income to be made, I'll keep doing it until I keel over. 00:54:46.945 --> 00:55:39.750 Yeah. (Greg mimics coughing) Oh, stop it! (Laughter) So that's the idea. And then, who knows? Like we've toyed with various spinoff or add-on ideas with, you know, when graphic novels came onto the scene, there was a lot of, you know, we should do a "Luann" graphic novel. Or, you know, Brad and Toni should spin off into their own comic strip, or more than once, there's been efforts and some traction on a "Luann" TV show of some kind. But that relies on Hollywood, which is the most unreliable planet on the planet. And, we've talked about ideas for, you know, extra material or content that our really hardcore fans would genuinely feel excited to, you know, subscribe to or purchase things or, I don't know if you wanna show them Puddles. (Gestures to plastic model of the "Luann" dog, Puddles) This is a random, there's a group here in North County of cartoonist-type creative people that get together just for fun. And one of the gentlemen is a very talented sculptor. He comes from the automotive industry, and in his retirement, was kind of looking for a new way to do something interesting and creative and decided let's do a "Luann" thing. And this is a 3D-printed project that six months, seven months? 00:55:39.750 --> 00:56:16.000 Yeah. 00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:38.885 Been such a cool thing watching, watching Dad get to like try to envision these characters in three dimensions and work with Tony on how do you translate the back of Luann's head, or what's the scale of all of this when, you know? When you're drawing it, it stays a pretty consistent scale, but actually mathematically to set-- 00:56:38.885 --> 00:56:52.764 You can, when you're drawing, you know, you can, I can cheat, but what dog from the back has their eyeballs sticking up like that? (Laughter) No. Where's the eyelids? 00:56:52.764 --> 00:56:57.164 So who knows? Who knows what we'll-- 00:56:57.164 --> 00:57:35.224 "Luann" has never been a real licensable character or intellectual property as far as T-shirts or clothing or stuff like that. You know, not, it's not a "Peanuts," "Garfield" kind of a cute thing that you can dress up or stuff like that. So we've never really had anything like that. Books for a while, and then they're not really doing books much anymore of comic strip collections. So that's sort of gone to the side. So, really just focusing on doing the best strip we can do every single day 'cause we owe it to the readers. 00:57:35.224 --> 00:57:36.045 That's true. 00:57:36.045 --> 00:57:37.804 Yeah. That's our job. 00:57:37.804 --> 00:57:39.465 Yep. 00:57:39.465 --> 00:57:50.594 Is there anything else that you would like to cover in today's interview? Anything that we missed? 00:57:50.594 --> 00:58:31.994 I just have to say that for such a strange career, it has opened doors and opportunities beyond imagination. Just creative people that we've met, or connections that we've been able to make, opportunities because we have flexibility. As a kid growing up, I have such an appreciation now the longer I go into my adult life, that I had parents, who were able to very bravely pursue kind of risky things like robots and cartooning, but stuck with it and made it work. And-- 00:58:31.994 --> 00:58:41.784 Yeah. My parents were like, hold on, five years of college to be a teacher, and now you're gonna go be a--run a robot? 00:58:41.784 --> 00:58:43.304 What? 00:58:43.304 --> 00:58:45.505 What? Gregory what are you thinking? 00:58:45.505 --> 00:59:05.385 Yeah. And then I think the community, just the cartooning community, our fan community, the creative community, and then the community that you guys, in particular, having been here and raised a family here, built with San Marcos as a home base. Like you've said, all of "Luann" has come from San Marcos. 00:59:05.385 --> 00:59:26.364 Yeah. Yeah, it has. That's and what a great place to live, you know, I mean, doing this job that you can live any anywhere. And so why not pick a gorgeous place to live? And I forgot to mention the exhibit at, at the library, too, the "Luann" exhibit. 00:59:26.364 --> 00:59:32.144 I had a question about it, but I--You didn't always know that Luann would go to college. 00:59:32.144 --> 00:59:34.000 That's true. 00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:38.505 Right, and so how, "how did that come to be?" was my question. 00:59:38.505 --> 01:01:40.824 How did Luann come to college? Well, so she started out at thirteen, and it was his decision to turn her sixteen. And I think that was because she had stopped being thirteen over--I wrote this up, I looked it up at some point. I feel like she was thirteen for like thirteen years. And after that it was kinda like, she's outgrown this and at sixteen, she could start to drive. So that might open up some new opportunities. So she was sixteen for another dozen some years. And right at the time that I came in, my version of the story, and then you can tell your version of the story, but my version of the story is when I started working, you were feeling kind of burned out. Like you'd been telling teen high school drama stories for at that point, you know, twenty-four years or whatever. And just were kinda' what else do we do with it? And these characters are, we've done all the dynamics over and over in different ways. And that was part of where the conversation of, Well, what if we bump them to college? What would that look like, and how would we do it? And that was an interesting decision in the sense that "Luann" doesn't move in any sort of structured like time frame. It's not this many years of "Luann" is equal to this many human real life years. But we recognized when we decided to graduate her that her senior year had to move in real time. Like you can't just sort of weirdly linger in your senior year indefinitely and be like, oh, my final prom again. So that was kind of, that was kind of crazy. That's the only time "Luann" has really moved in real time is that one year of senior year of high school. And then we had to do a lot of specific planning for what--we only have 365 days of comics. So what core events happened in that senior year? So that was my version of it. 01:01:40.824 --> 01:01:58.284 And what do we do with the characters? Because they had all been in this nice, neat package at this school. Right. The teachers, Mr. Fogarty, everybody's right there. Well, are they all gonna' graduate and go to the very same college? Wouldn't that be-- 01:01:58.284 --> 01:01:58.695 Wouldn't that be great? 01:01:58.695 --> 01:02:14.244 A coincidence? Well, that's not gonna happen. Of course not. So some went to the junior college like Luann did, some went to the university, and about five characters sort of just left the strip and-- 01:02:14.244 --> 01:02:15.813 They moved on with their lives, really. 01:02:15.813 --> 01:02:30.474 Yeah. And new characters came in. So it was a big adjustment. So now we have different universes in the strip that are happening at the same time, but don't maybe necessarily overlap. So it's a little more of a challenge, I think. 01:02:30.474 --> 01:02:31.268 Yeah. 01:02:31.268 --> 01:02:31.664 To write. 01:02:31.664 --> 01:03:56.000 And that's where you think sometimes I feel like, when I came along. I am, I tend to think much more complex than what fits into a comic strip. So I have to work hard to dial things down. But yeah, moving them out into college and making hard decisions--like the core of "Luann" for so many years was Luann and her two best friends with Bernice and Delta. But when we started thinking about it, going back to characters telling you what's gonna' happen to them, there was no way--Delta was so driven and global and passionate. We just couldn't see her staying at her hometown university. And so she's, she's currently off at Howard doing amazing things, I'm sure. But it was such a shocking thing to think about splitting up these three core characters and yeah. Yeah. Like how do you, how do we, what? But that Delta just genuinely wasn't going to be sticking around town. So she's out, maybe she'll show up someday and tell us what she's been doing. But awesome things, I'm sure. 01:03:56.000 --> 01:04:05.224 And just for those listening, we're referring to an exhibit that was done at the CSUSM Library called "Luann Goes to College" (actually titled "Luann's Journey to College). 01:04:05.224 --> 01:05:30.014 Yes. So that was a cool experience, 'cause it was neat to, we put together strips that kind of show this evolution of "Luann" going from my high school self preparing and going into college and to have that showcased on a university campus I thought was particularly special because even if you're a transfer student, that's just a fresh experience for you. And being a freshman in particular is such a strange stage in life of being like, I'm an adult and I'm out doing my thing, but I don't feel fully like an adult. And I think nineteen--eighteen and nineteen--nineteen is the most interesting to me because you are still a teen. You're nineteen, you're a teenager, but you're eighteen-nineteen, like you're an adult. You've kind of gone out on your own, but you're not fully figuring it all out by nineteen for most people. And then you haven't hit the all-important twenty-one. So your social life is still, you can't access anything that's twenty-one and up, whether you choose to drink or not. But just there's, there's activities that aren't available to you. So this is like weird little limbo land. Being like a teen-adult. So yeah, that was a neat exhibit to put together. 01:05:30.014 --> 01:05:30.585 Well. 01:05:30.585 --> 01:05:40.655 Yeah, we've always had a great relationship with the university, and we really appreciate it. Yeah. And it's really an honor to be asked to be part of this oral history. 01:05:40.655 --> 01:05:53.744 Well I just wan to thank you so much today for sharing your creativity, your passion, your relationship. I think it's really beautiful the way that you two work together and collaborate. 01:05:53.744 --> 01:05:58.784 Our matching shirts. Yep. Mom got us these for Christmas, so we thought it would be good to wear them today. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EvansGreg_and_Evans_Karen_FabbiJennifer_03-25-25_access.xml EvansGreg_and Evans_Karen_FabbiJennifer_03-25-25_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Evans, Greg and Karen. Interview March 25, 2025. Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Greg Evans and Karen Evans, March 25, 2025. Greg and Karen Evans are a father-daughter team who co-create the syndicated comic strip, Luann. In this interview, they talk about their roles in creative process, the inspiration for Luann, and the evolution of the comic strip over its 40-year existence. Greg received an Honorary Doctorate of Fine Arts from CSU San Marcos in 2016. Karen Evans is also the newly elected president of the National Cartoonists Society. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-075 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-03-25 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Greg Evans and Karen Evans Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Cartooning -- Technique Comic strip characters Luann. Selections Comic books, strips, etc. Cartoonist Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) El Centro (Calif.) Merced (Calif.) Australia Colorado Springs (Co.) San Diego (Calif.)  Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a class="Hyperlink SCXW191720648 BCX0" href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Greg Evans Karen Evans Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Art and artists Community history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ryan Willis Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ilima Kam Martinez OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MartinezIlimaKam_WillisRyan_04-07-23.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Martinez, Ilima Kam. Interview April 7, 2023 SC027-027 00:53:41 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. California State University San Marcos COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- Hawaii -- Culture Hawaii -- Social life and customs Hula (Dance) San Diego County (Calif.) Ilima Kam Martinez Ryan Willis m4a MartinezIlimaKam_WillisRyan_2023-04-07 1:|29(6)|40(14)|68(17)|104(25)|104(118)|137(6)|149(1)|190(31)|190(159)|190(294)|207(6)|223(2)|229(35)|238(41)|246(1)|263(55)|280(4)|310(42)|313(55)|319(32)|327(97)|346(16)|366(8)|368(24)|377(4)|409(5)|416(10)|419(98)|419(213)|419(310)|430(7)|450(57)|461(20)|474(17)|480(77)|521(19)|526(2)|534(71)|534(185)|545(47)|557(11)|570(23)|585(3)|593(24)|595(82)|651(8)|663(22)|672(4)|688(103)|688(215)|715(19)|732(4)|743(1) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5fd0201c55bc12a13a23cf3cc706c049.m4a Other audio 30 Chapter 1: Where were you born? Ilima explains that she was born in San Diego, California and was raised locally in both Oceanside and Carlsbad. California ; carlsbad ; oceanside ; San Diego 44 Chapter 2: Childhood and Family Ilima speaks about growing up in predominantly Caucasian communities and schools. She then talks about her family including her father, who was a retired civil engineer from Pearl Harbor, Hawaii by the time Ilima was born. Since her father was retired, Ilima spent most of her childhood being raised by her father. Childhood ; father ; pearl harbor 147 Chapter 3: Did you spend a lot of time in Hawaii growing up? Any interest living there permanently? Ilima explains that she spent many summers with her two half-sisters and dad in Hawaii. She then admits that she always thought she would eventually live in Hawaii full time, and still hopes for this in the future. family ; Hawaii ; summer 211 Chapter 4: Any influential family members or friends growing up that you really looked up to? Ilima's dad was very influential in her life, as she explains that he was always present growing up and acknowledges that he was working at Pear Harbor at the time it was attacked by Japan on December 7, 1941. bombing ; Pearl Harbor ; WWII 305 Chapter 5: Did your father ever share his experience at Pearl Harbor? Ilima explains she did not even know her father was a civil engineer at Pearl Harbor at the time the island of Oahu was bombed until his 80th birthday party. Her father would sometimes begin talking about it, but never elaborated on the experience, always staying modest and humble. Civil Engineer ; Pearl Harbor ; Tennis Instructor 449 Chapter 6: When did you first take an interest in Hawaiian culture? Since she was the youngest of her siblings and the only one not born in Hawaii, Ilima always yearned to be connected to the island and the culture. She did not fully recognize the uniqueness of her heritage until she was in middle school when she saw a hula performance,which propelled her on her journey of learning hula, serving as an anchor in her life. Hawaiian culture ; hula ; ukulele 619 Chapter 7: Teaching hula and opening her own hālau Ilima shares that she opened up her own hālau, a traditional school in Vista, CA. She then explains that hālau is viewed as a place for family in Hawaiian culture, and how hula operates like a family. hālau ; hula ; vista 719 Chapter 8: Passion for elders (kūpuna) and volunteer work Before the COVID-19 pandemic, Ilima volunteered at the Oceanside Senior Center teaching elders (kūpuna) how to dance hula. She explains why Hawaiians hold their kūpuna in very high regard. hula ; kūpuna ; Oceanside 794 Chapter 9: Can you elaborate more on the importance of hula? Ilima expands on why hula is so important in Hawaiian culture as it encompasses mental, physical, and spiritual components.She then admits that hula makes a positive impact on elders (kūpuna). body ; hula ; kūpuna ; mind ; spirit 901 Chapter 10: The challenges of Covid-19 Ilima dives into her own personal struggles with the COVID-19 pandemic and the importance of being together in Hawaiian culture. Covid-19 ; hālau ; hānai ; Hawaiian community 1043 Chapter 11: Influential hula instructors Ilima talks about one of her mentors, Kawaikapuokalani Hewett, an enormous figure in Hawaiian culture hula ; Kawaikapuokalani Hewett ; kumu ; mentor 1337 Chapter 12: Misconceptions about Hawaiians Ilima addresses misconceptions of Hawaiians, and that Hawaiians identify themselves by their lineage and ancestors and not by blood quantum. misconceptions ; stereotypes 1504 Chapter 13: When did you begin spreading and preserving traditions of Hawaiian culture? Ilima knew as a young adult that she was going to make it her mission to practice Hawaiian culture despite not being born and raised on ancestral land, and wanted to provide other Hawaiians that also did not live in Hawaii a platform to partake in Hawaiian traditions. This leads Ilima to discuss further her motivation in opening her hālau, creating an accessible and affordable place for all to learn. Ilima introduces her nonprofit organization, UMEKE, which provides access to Hawaiian culture such as hula in an authentic way for all, regardless of ethnicity or race. accessible ; hālau ; hawaiians ; hula ; UMEKE 1826 Chapter 14: When did you first establish UMEKE? Ilima founded her nonprofit in October 2021. 2021 ; nonprofit ; UMEKE 1870 Chapter 15: Was there anyone that helped you get UMEKE up and running? Ilima has a huge support system, especially elders and female role models within the Hawaiian community that have all played a significant role in the success of UMEKE. Native Hawaiian Community ; role models ; UMEKE 1922 Chapter 16: What are you most proud of to this point with UMEKE? Ilima states that she is most proud of a grant that her organization created to introduce hula (and ukulele) to a local elementary school that has a large Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander population. Accessibility ; Kids ; Native Hawaiian ; Pacific Islander 2021 Chapter 17: Filing a need in the community There has been an abundance of opportunities presented to Ilima and the UMEKE team since 2021, which Ilima believes demonstrates the need for her organization within the San Diego community, and hopes for projects to continue to float her way. goals ; UMEKE 2127 Chapter 18: Pursuing an education at CSUSM Ilima explains why her children played a vital role in her decision to attend California State University San Marcos, and why she decided to pursue a bachelor's degree in indigenous anthropology. She recounts her time and experience in school as a &quot ; non-traditional student&quot ; and the challenges she faced, along with gaining a new perspective. CSUSM ; indigenous anthropology ; Kumeyaay ; Luiseño ; Non-traditional student 2512 Chapter 19: Southern California, Asian, and Pacific Islander Festival Ilima talks about the upcoming Southern California, Asian, and Pacific Islander festival where she is the co-creator. Ilima elaborates on her multi-ethnic background and wanting the community to know that this event is for everyone and to learn about API (Asian &amp ; Pacific Islander) culture. Asian ; Festival ; Pacific Islander ; Southern California 2871 Chapter 20: How many cultures represented? How did you go about contacting these different groups? Ilima estimates over twenty different cultures represented at the API festival. Thanks to her close relations within the Pacific Islander and dance community, it was easy for Ilima to get other groups to attend and participate. African American Community ; arts ; Pacific Islander Community ; San Diego 3038 Chapter 21: Getting involved and growing the community Ilima stresses that anyone from any background or ethnicity would be a welcome ally in promoting Hawaiian and indigenous culture within the community. ally ; allyship ; community 3098 Chapter 22: What are you most proud of and what has brought you the most joy in life? Ilima's children are what she is most proud of in her life, as she has been able to instill and teach her children about Hawaiian culture and they will be able to pass those traditions on to future generations. Children ; future generations ; Hawaiian traditions ; knowledge sound Ilima Kam Martinez is a California State University San Marcos alum and the founder and President of UMEKE, an organization that promotes and preserves Hawaiian culture through hula dancing. In this interview, Ilima discusses her upbringing, the influence and relationship with her father, the importance of hula in Hawaiian cultures, the challenges she faced during the Covid-19 pandemic, her passion for elders, her mentors, going back to school to earn her degree, and her goals for UMEKE moving forward. Ryan Willis: Alright. Hello, this is Ryan Willis, and today I am interviewing Ilima Kam Martinez for the California State University San Marcos Library Special Collections oral history project. Today is April 7, 2023, and the time is 1:47 PM, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Ilima, thank you so much for interviewing with me today. Ilima Kam Martinez: Thank you for the invitation. Willis: Of course. So, let&#039 ; s go ahead and start off, um, from the beginning. Where were you born? Martinez: I was born here in San Diego, California, and raised here in both Oceanside and Carlsbad area. Willis: Perfect. And if you don&#039 ; t mind, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood? Uh, what was it like growing up for you? Martinez: It&#039 ; s just-it&#039 ; s always an interesting question because I think I will answer that much differently than I would&#039 ; ve say, you know, uh, 25 years ago. Um, I-- attended schools in Carlsbad, which is a predominantly, you know, affluent Caucasian community. And coming from a really diverse background, um, I, uh-- let me think. Willis: Yeah, yeah. Take your time &lt ; Martinez laughs&gt ; . Not a problem. Martinez: Um, that really set me on the path that I find myself on today. I grew up with both parents in my life. Two sisters, two older sisters. I&#039 ; m the youngest. Um, my father was a retired civil engineer from Pearl Harbor. So he had me, you know, by the time I was born, he was already at an age where he was retired. So, I spent most of my time with him and being raised by him. Willis: Okay. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: That&#039 ; s really interesting. So, you said your father worked in-at Pearl Harbor? Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So did you spend a lot of time in Hawaii growing up? Martinez: I did. So, I also have two half-sisters, that remained in Hawaii, from my father&#039 ; s first marriage. And, when I say half-sisters, that&#039 ; s just, more literal than anything there. So I spent a lot of time, with my dad and my sisters during the summer times growing up. So we often would visit-- Willis: Gotcha. Martinez: Hawaii. Willis: Did you ever have any interest in living there full-time? Or was it just more of like, oh, we&#039 ; ll just, you know, visit here and there? Martinez: I always thought I would. I always thought that I would, eventually wind up there. Um, and I&#039 ; m not totally disregarding the possibility of that happening in the future. But yes, I do hope to find myself back there one day. Willis: That&#039 ; s awesome. Yeah. I&#039 ; ve always wanted to visit, but never have to this point. Um, were there any influential family members or friends growing up that you really looked up to? Martinez: I would have to say my dad. Willis: Your dad. Martinez: Yeah. My dad was, he was so, he came from a, a generation right, where it was very, um, old school. You know, he was working at Pearl Harbor at the time that it was bombed. And so he, he, although he wasn&#039 ; t-- he came from a generation, that was not especially affectionate or maybe verbalized, you know, their, their love for their families and friends, but always showed it, you know, in by example. Always being present with me, always, you know, taking me to, you know, activities. And, so although he might not have been, you know, that ty-not typical, but extremely affectionate or, you know, verbalizing love that he was very instrumental in what I would consider to be a really happy childhood. Willis: Right. Yeah. That&#039 ; s awesome. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So you said that he was actually at Pearl Harbor, though when the bombing took place? Martinez: He was mm-hmm. Willis: Wow. So what kind of stories did he have &lt ; Martinez laughs&gt ; regarding that? Or was that something that he kind of just didn&#039 ; t like to talk about? Martinez: He, it&#039 ; s funny because I actually didn&#039 ; t even know he was a civil engineer at Pearl Harbor until his 80th birthday party. Which took place in Hawaii. In his retirement he was actually a tennis instructor for the Carlsbad Parks and Recreation for twenty years. That&#039 ; s what I always thought that he was. &lt ; laughs&gt ; To me, that&#039 ; s what my dad did for a living. Willis: Right. Martinez: Oh, he&#039 ; s a tennis instructor! &lt ; laughs&gt ; . And when somebody, you know, was giving a speech at his birthday party instead he was a civil engineer, you know, I&#039 ; m already a young adult at that point, right? At Pearl Harbor. I was, I had no idea. But that was typical of my dad. He was very, very humble. Um, very modest. And so, it probably shouldn&#039 ; t have surprised me, but yeah. He didn&#039 ; t talk about much about his experience, at Pearl Harbor at the time. Later on, you know, when he, so he had suffered a major stroke in his eighties and, had moved in, with my family and I, and so I was his sole caregiver during about a span, about, of about 10 years. And things would, he would start to talk about it but never really elaborate. And, and I just always, you know, knew better than to, to pry that he would tell me what I was meant to know. Willis: Right. Martinez: What he felt that I should know. Willis: Yeah. If you didn&#039 ; t find out about it until you were, you know, a young adult. So that kind of-- &lt ; laughs&gt ; Martinez: Right. Willis: Explains it right there. Like yeah, you probably didn&#039 ; t want to go there. Martinez: Exactly. And, and my dad was such a, he was such, a planner, right? Like, he was always very organized, always had things in place. So he actually had written his own obituary several years before he even had his stroke. And so it was actually through his obituary that he wrote that I learned a lot about him. Willis: I see. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: That&#039 ; s fascinating. Martinez: Mm-hmm. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Willis: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So kind of along the lines of Hawaiian culture, when did you first take an interest in it? And was there a point in your life where you kind of knew that that was something that you really wanted to focus on in your life, or even with a career? Martinez: I, I think that so being the youngest of my siblings, I was the only one who was born here in San Diego. All my siblings, all my sisters were born in Hawaii, raised in Hawaii. And so I feel like there was always that yearning, you know, to be connected to Hawaii. And, um, it&#039 ; s really interesting because what I didn&#039 ; t know at the time in my upbringing, you know, with my dad, what I didn&#039 ; t realize was very special and unique to Hawaiian culture? I didn&#039 ; t even realize that&#039 ; s what it was until, until later on. Right? Just, you know, maybe the foods we ate, the music my, my dad would play, he was a &quot ; slap &lt ; unclear&gt ; guitarist.&quot ; He played ukulele. Um, but, it, to me, it was just my home. Right? So I think that it was pretty, I think I wanna say sometime around maybe middle school that I had seen a hula performance. And I remember it having such an impact on me at that moment that I was like, ahh! I don&#039 ; t know, there was just this instant connection, although I had seen, you know, hula before, but it was just this one particular moment. And so, that was when I had asked my dad, I would like to take hula classes, but again, I mean, I&#039 ; m in Carlsbad, right? And like where, where do you even find something like that? And, and, um. But we, we did. And so he, enrolled me in classes at that time. And it&#039 ; s been a lifelong journey of learning ever since. And just something that I&#039 ; ve always felt, so it, it&#039 ; s been the constant in my life right? Where I could go, always rely on hula to, to, um-- it was just a, an anchor, you know? Right. No matter what else is going on in my life, hula was always and still is that anchor for me, that makes me feel safe. Willis: Right. Martinez: Yeah. Willis: That&#039 ; s so cool. Yeah. I was gonna ask you, because I know that we, had talked in our pre-interview specifically about hula and how important that is to Hawaiian culture. I understand that you actually teach it as well. Martinez: I do &lt ; laughs&gt ; , I do. I have a hālau in, which is a traditional hula school in Vista. I just opened up the hālau oh gosh. We just celebrated our fourth anniversary. Um, and it&#039 ; s been, it&#039 ; s been wonderful. Um, I think for those that have not had experience in hālau it&#039 ; s, it can be challenging to understand, but hālau equates for a lot of people family, right? Like in its essence, yes, it&#039 ; s a school of hula, but really it&#039 ; s in, its, in its foundational form it&#039 ; s about family and it works and operates very much like a family. So sometimes I wonder if it was really that I wanted to open the hālau for &lt ; laughs&gt ; , you know, teaching hula or if it was for the purpose of being able to provide a home and a family for, for students. Willis: Right. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: That&#039 ; s awesome. You also mentioned that you have a passion for elders, and I know that you were teaching them as well pre-Covid. Is that correct? Martinez: Pre-Covid I was volunteering at the Oceanside Senior Center. And I think it also again goes back to my dad. I think a lot of things &lt ; laughs&gt ; will go back to my dad. He was, I mean he was fifty-eight years old when I was born, and I think about that and it just kind of blows my mind. And as being his caregiver, kūpuna or elders in Hawaiian culture are so, I think that&#039 ; s one of the many unique things about Hawaiian culture is that we, help, hold our kūpuna in such high regard because we know that their experience, we know that their, the lives that they have lived and their experience far surpasses ours. So we always know to go to them and respect, you know, the knowledge that they, that they bear. So yeah-- Willis: And I think you also mentioned that part of the reason why you&#039 ; ve really enjoyed teaching the hula to seniors or elders is because it exercises their mind not just their body, right? Like you&#039 ; re just kind of focusing on the whole package there. Can you maybe elaborate a little bit more on that? Martinez: Yeah. I mean, hula at its core is encompassing of, mental, physical, and spiritual, which you know, I&#039 ; ve learned that not everybody realizes or may know that. And so, when you&#039 ; re, when I&#039 ; m teaching with kūpuna, having those three facets ; that physical, mental and emotional part I have seen has been such, has had such a huge impact on them. You know, just the simple act of coming together, of sharing meals together, which we do a lot, &lt ; laughs&gt ; The cognition that goes into learning choreography, I have seen such an a really impressive trajectory, upward trajectory in how much now that my kūpuna class can retain as opposed to when they may have first started dancing. Right. I think that, watching that, like being a witness to this, this, how it can, how hula can positively impact them, is just, such a huge motivator to just keep going, to just to keep doing that and okay now what else can we do? Willis: Yeah. Seems like that would be very rewarding. Martinez: Mm-hmm. It&#039 ; s Extremely rewarding. Willis: So you were teaching, classes for free to seniors right before Covid- Martinez: Before Covid. Willis: And then once Covid hit. So what was that whole experience like for you once Covid hit and you weren&#039 ; t able to teach people in person. I bet that was really difficult for you. Martinez: &lt ; laughs&gt ; . It was, it was. It provided its challenges. I think a lot of us shared the same challenges. Trying to communicate and, keep a community online was just really challenging. However, I feel like during the time of the pandemic folks were looking to have that sense of community that when you would&#039 ; ve thought that we would have flailed, as a hālau, it actually just thrived, because of that need that, just that human need to want to come together and have a community. So when it was time, when we reached that time where we could come together outdoors, I mean, we, we did it immediately. As soon as we were told that we could conduct classes outdoors it was immediately and students came out and didn&#039 ; t hesitate. I would say probably the most challenging thing was what is inherently cult- culturally inherent to us is the act of like, exchanging hānai or, you know kiss, kisses or hugs. And culturally, that&#039 ; s what we do when we greet each other, when we say farewell to each other, is to always hānai each other. And that was probably one of the largest challenges because we couldn&#039 ; t even, like, &lt ; Willis laughs&gt ; we couldn&#039 ; t touch- Willis: Right. Martinez: We couldn&#039 ; t- Willis: Six feet. Martinez: Yeah. That six feet. And it went against everything that we, that was so ingrained in us that that, that was pretty tough. Willis: That was such an awkward moment in time. Like, nobody really knew how to interact with each other. I want to give you a hug, but I guess let&#039 ; s give you an air hug for now. Martinez: Yeah, yeah. Willis: But I can see how that could be very difficult, especially with your culture, just wanting to be right there with the person and be able to, you know, exchange those pleasantries. So-- Martinez: Yeah. Willis: Yeah. Going back to when you first started learning hula, do you specifically remember an instructor or somebody that taught you or that really had an influence on that? Martinez: I couldn&#039 ; t single one out to be honest, because with each kumu or teacher that I have had has had such a huge influence on the kumu that I am today. I, I couldn&#039 ; t credit just, just one. They all affected me in different ways, but equally impactful ways. I&#039 ; ll note that, so I was, &lt ; unclear&gt ; is the formal graduation ceremony that a kuma hula goes through in order to, it&#039 ; s like it&#039 ; s a method of training, right? To become a kuma hula. And so the kuma that I was very honored and so blessed to be able to graduate under, he&#039 ; s, his name is Kawaikapuokalani Hewett. And he is so prolific and knowledgeable in, in all aspects of Hawaiian culture that, and just to have that source, to be able to always go back to for the rest of, you know, my life like, that&#039 ; s just, it&#039 ; s just really, I feel so, so blessed that I have him, in my life. And, and the Hawaiian community is blessed to have him because he&#039 ; s so gracious and generous with his, with his &#039 ; ike or his knowledge, where I think that as an indigenous culture, we often can gatekeep you know, rightfully so. But we can often gatekeep some knowledge because of how it has been, exploited right? In the past. Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: And the fact that, that Kumu Kawaikapuokalani is, is, has such a kind heart and willing to be able to, share knowledge is, is really, really priceless because it has benefited so many of his students. Willis: Right, right. Do you remember when you met him exactly? Was it when you were first learning hula or? Martinez: Oh my goodness. Well he is a, he, I can&#039 ; t remember exactly because he&#039 ; s very well known in Hawaii. He is a famous composer or songwriter and poet. And so my father being a musician, I remember seeing Kawaikapuo CDs in my home, you know at the time. So I, it&#039 ; s actually kind of interesting cause I feel like it was almost a, uh, predetermined that this relationship was going to circle around. Right. And ironically, he, and I can&#039 ; t obviously say the name, but he resides on the same street in Hawaii that my sister resided in at the time. So when I would visit my sister &lt ; laughs&gt ; in Hawaii, it was the same street that my now kumu still lives on. So, it, it&#039 ; s just-- Willis: Oh wow. How convenient is that? Martinez: It&#039 ; s just, yeah, &lt ; laughs&gt ; . I&#039 ; m going to say coincident, there&#039 ; s no such thing as coincidences. Willis: Right. No, I agree. &lt ; Martinez laughs&gt ; . Aside from hula, are there any other specific Hawaiian traditions that you really feel passionate about? Martinez: Oh my goodness. Um, I feel that hula does encompass all of those traditions. Right? And I think that&#039 ; s why it is so predominant in Hawaiian culture because it encompasses every aspect of Hawaiian culture. Protocols are implemented in hula that are implemented in-- that really dictate, the belief systems of Hawaiian people. So, I wouldn&#039 ; t, I, yeah. I don&#039 ; t think, yeah. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Willis: No, that&#039 ; s perfect. Do you think there&#039 ; s any like, big misconceptions about Hawaiians or Hawaiian culture in general? I mean, like stereotypes &lt ; Martinez laughs&gt ; from your experiences? Martinez: Yeah. &lt ; more laughter&gt ; . Yeah. There&#039 ; s, I wouldn&#039 ; t even know where to begin &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Willis: &lt ; laughs&gt ; I know it&#039 ; s kind of a loaded question. Martinez: Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. But if I had to Like if I had to choose, you know, one or two of the most common stereotypes or misconceptions, gosh, I would, I-- Hmm, Hmm. Well, I&#039 ; ll address one thing only because it&#039 ; s fresh in my mind. And I was posed this question recently was I often get asked, &quot ; Oh, how much Hawaiian are you? And it&#039 ; s interesting when folks ask this question because it&#039 ; s almost like they&#039 ; re putting a measure to it. Yeah? And I think what folks don&#039 ; t understand is that as a Hawaiian people, we identify our Hawaiian-ness is by our lineage and our ancestors. Right? It&#039 ; s not about a blood quantum. And I, I think I&#039 ; ll just leave it at that &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Willis: That&#039 ; s perfect. I appreciate that. Didn&#039 ; t mean to put you on the spot. Martinez: No, no, it&#039 ; s a great question. It was just hard to decide what it would be the, what is most often misunderstood. Because there&#039 ; s plenty. There&#039 ; s plenty. Willis: Yeah. Understood. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So this next question&#039 ; s gonna kind of lead into your organization that I want to talk to you about- Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: But around when and how did you begin your journey in assisting with spreading and preserving traditions of Hawaii? Martinez: I&#039 ; m sorry, can you ask--? Willis: Yeah, of course. So I was just wondering around when was it, when you were maybe a teenager, young adult, when you decided, okay, I&#039 ; m gonna really start to assist with spreading and preserving the traditions of Hawaiian culture? Martinez: Hmm. Oh gosh. I think I can&#039 ; t recall when I know I was younger, but I can&#039 ; t recall the exact time. But as an adult, I always knew. Like as a young adult, I knew that that would be my mission, for a couple reasons. One, it was the accessibility of, learning Hawaiian culture being a Hawaiian who lives in diaspora, right? Who doesn&#039 ; t, who isn&#039 ; t living in their ancestral land. So, just, you know, personally from my own personal experience not having that access and really having to actively search for it, I knew that I wanted to be able to provide that for other native Hawaiians that are not, no longer residing in Hawaii. Another reason is that just like anything else, any sort of extracurricular activity, sometimes classes are not affordable to, Native Hawaiian population. Right? They can be, that can be a barrier, a financial barrier. And that&#039 ; s always kind of been, to me an interesting, dilemma as a kumu hula, and as someone who has a hālau, I always wanna make sure our classes are accessible to everyone who wants to learn. However, at the end of the day, I still have a lease to pay. Right? An electric bill. And, and so how can I do that in such a way that it can benefit students. How can I teach, culture in a way that can benefit students, that can still benefit financially for my family, right? Because I dedicate a lot of my time to this. And then the third component is, how can it benefit the community as a whole? And I think that&#039 ; s where UMEKE, our organization comes in, right? Establishing that nonprofit organization where we can be able to provide access to culture for everyone. Because I believe anyone and everyone who would like to learn Native Hawaiian or not, should be able to. Should be able to do that and do it in a, an a appropriate and an authentic way you know, because we don&#039 ; t live-- Because of our locale, there are often folks who may be teaching a version of hula or, but perhaps they don&#039 ; t have the education to be teaching Hawaiian culture in, you know in an authentic way. And that&#039 ; s not to say that it&#039 ; s, you know I&#039 ; m sure the intention, the intentions are good and, and whatnot, but they&#039 ; re-- In San Diego in particular, the native Hawaiian community is very passionate about being, taking on that kuleana or that responsibility of educating about Hawaiian culture in a way that it&#039 ; s, that it&#039 ; s coming from the native Hawaiian community. Yeah. I know that, personally, and this is just me personally, is that because Hawaiian culture has been commercialized for so long, I actively work towards deconstructing those, those, those stereotypes that surround Hawaiian culture that mostly came about once Hawaii became a, a very popular travel destination. Right? Um, so-- Willis: Gotcha. So speaking a little bit more on, UMEKE when did you first, establish your organization? Martinez: We filed in 2021, October of 2021. And we were stagnant for a little bit as we were kind of building our capacity, and I&#039 ; ve just recently become more active and had some really great opportunities to be able to-- Willis: And you are the founder, you are the president. It&#039 ; s really, you know, your idea. Right? You were the one that was like, let&#039 ; s do this, let&#039 ; s push forward. Martinez: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Willis: Was there anyone else that hopped on board with you that kind of helped you get it going? Or was it pretty much your project and your project only? Martinez: Oh my gosh. I had a huge support system, even from people that don&#039 ; t even realize they were part of it. They were part of it. &lt ; laughs&gt ; And again, it goes back to, my, the elders within the Hawaiian community, specifically in San Diego. Those aunties, you know, I have some really amazing female role models in the Native Hawaiian community, in the kūpuna. And when I see the work that they have done and dedicated their lives to, I realize that this next generation, that I now have that responsibility to keep on that pathway that they&#039 ; ve, that they&#039 ; ve blazed already. Right? Mm-hmm. Willis: Right. So obviously it&#039 ; s still a relatively new organization, but what are you most proud of, so far, and what are you kind of hoping to accomplish moving forward? Martinez: Oh, gosh. I&#039 ; m at this moment most proud of a grant we were recently working on within collaboration with a local school district to be able to bring hula to -- and ukulele -- to an elementary school that has a significant Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander [NHPI] population. And providing that accessibility component, where, you know students might not otherwise be able to afford it financially or may not just even have the transportation for that, right? Because it happens during school. It, the accessibility just makes, made it so easy. So I would say that because I reflect on what I would&#039 ; ve really loved at that age and been exposed to, and being able to take ownership of that [NHPI] identity in a place other than my home, among my friends, I think that would&#039 ; ve been really impactful for me as a young person. And so-- Willis: Definitely. Yeah. And kids remember assemblies like that as well. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: I can still tell you some of the ones that I attended in elementary school and like the impact they had on me so that&#039 ; s a really cool thing. And then, as far as like, looking forward to future, do you have any goals in mind or is it really just continue to do what you&#039 ; re doing and hope more people hop on? Martinez: &lt ; laughs&gt ; Yeah, I mean, as far as goals it&#039 ; s so interesting because when this group of us set out to start UMEKE, there were really folks that just wholeheartedly believed in me and my vision. And when we set out to do this, I think just like anything when you start something you&#039 ; re like, &quot ; Ohh!,&quot ; you know. &lt ; laughs&gt ; We weren&#039 ; t sure how successful we would be, but it&#039 ; s so interesting because opportunities have really been presenting themselves without us seeking them out, which to me, speaks to the mission of UMEKE that it was something that was really needed in our community because projects are really kind of floating our way, and it aligns with what we would love to do. So although we didn&#039 ; t know exactly maybe specifically what a project was going to look like, folks are coming to us with their projects. And so it&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s really exciting because it&#039 ; s like, oh, there was a need! We, okay, great. You know- &lt ; laughs&gt ; Willis: &lt ; laughs&gt ; It&#039 ; s all for a reason. Martinez: It, yes. Yeah. Willis: That&#039 ; s really cool. Shifting gears a little bit, I understand you are a Cal State San Marco alum? Martinez: I am. Willis: So you earned your bachelor&#039 ; s degree in Indigenous Anthropology, is that correct? Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: In 2019? Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So what was that, what made you decide to ultimately go for a bachelor&#039 ; s degree? What kind of pushed you in that direction? Martinez: That&#039 ; s a funny story. So I have four children, and my eldest was in high school at the time and, you know neither of my parents went to college. And between my siblings and I, we didn&#039 ; t have a four-year degree. Right. So I was very, very, very &lt ; laughs&gt ; , persistent that my children go to a four-year college, and I realized that I couldn&#039 ; t preach &lt ; laughs&gt ; higher education to them. Unless I went ahead and did it myself and so I did &lt ; laughter&gt ; . Yeah. Willis: That&#039 ; s very admirable. It&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s not easy, especially when you&#039 ; re a parent. I can attest to that. It is not easy to continue on with school. I mean, you just have so many other things going on. Just to be able to put aside some time for that is a challenge within itself. Was it a difficult decision? I mean, I guess that&#039 ; s the obvious to, to go back to school or, but once you got in, was it, was it easy for you? Did it come naturally, or what was that kind of whole process like when you first started attending classes? Martinez: It was interesting going back as an, as a non-traditional student and, you know, at my age with children, I knew I was going to go into it slow and steady. I wasn&#039 ; t in a rush. And so I had just started with maybe two classes per semester. And, and I actually thought of it as a blessing because I got to study exactly what I wanted to. I knew that cultural anthropology was going to be something that would maintain my interest and my goals. And so, when I had learned that Cal State [San Marcos] specifically had an indigenous anthropology degree, it, it, it just all made sense. So it wasn&#039 ; t, it was challenging maybe logistically, having, juggling, family, but learning and the like-minded folks that I got to meet, especially this younger generation! They&#039 ; re amazing, you know, &lt ; laughter&gt ; and getting invigorated by this young energy. For me it was a, it was a great experience, and you know, when you tell somebody that you&#039 ; re going to school for indigenous anthropology, you always get that question, what are you gonna do with that? Well, guess what? I use it every single day! &lt ; laughs&gt ; , Willis: Right. Not everybody can say that, so that&#039 ; s impressive. Yeah. Uh, so did you come away with a new perspective after graduating? Martinez: Um, hmm. I think the perspective that I got was, probably one of the most important perspectives is that outside perspective, right? Because we&#039 ; re sometimes always just living in our bubble and really only see what&#039 ; s happening in our immediate surroundings. And so, I would say it changed my perspective in that, in the sense that, one, learning about other cultures, and when we learn about other cultures, it really helps us to understand more of our own, and being with such a diverse, because Cal State [San Marcos] does have a really diverse student body, right? So different ages and ethnicities. And so I think that, those, all of those things combined are, are what changed my perspective, not the actual piece of paper &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Willis: Yeah, no. I totally understand. Um, as far as the other cultures that you learned about, was there one in particular other than Hawaiian that really caught your attention? Martinez: Oh my goodness. I wouldn&#039 ; t say specifically one. I think that just studying other indigenous cultures, particularly, you know, the ones within our area, like the Kumeyaay and the Luiseño, I just loved learning about how more similar Hawaiian culture is, with the [San Diego-are] native communities than not, and so I would say it that was just, and, and that was with everything. That&#039 ; s with belief systems, that&#039 ; s with, our, our medical systems, how we view health. Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: How we view, our, structures of our families, our structure of our communities. So, now I&#039 ; m not sure that I &lt ; laughs&gt ; answered your question. Willis: Yeah, that&#039 ; s perfect. Um, so I did want to touch base on an event that, um, you obviously had a huge hand in, earlier this year in February, you were able to establish the first ever southern California, Asian, and Pacific Islander Festival. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: Which, um, took place actually here in Oceanside. Uh, first off, what was kind of the vision of this, event and how long did it take for this idea to become a reality? Martinez: Um, I can say I can&#039 ; t take credit for coming up with the idea. As, but as now, like currently being a co-creator of, of the event for me personally, I come from a multiculturally- multicultural background, so, um, as a lot of us are right? So yes, I&#039 ; m Native Hawaiian. Um, in addition to that, I&#039 ; m also Japanese and Chinese and Mexican. And, coming from such a, a multi-ethnic background growing up in North [San Diego] County, I think that, my drive behind this event is one, bringing that diversity to North County that it hasn&#039 ; t seen a lot of in the past that, and maybe on this, on this level, right? Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: The API [Asian &amp ; Pacific Islander] community being highlighted to this extent in this area, we&#039 ; re quite underrepresented. And I knew that going into this festival that our number one focus was always going to be on the educational aspect of it, and getting, you know, circling back to that, like when we understand other cultures, that we really begin to understand ourselves more, and we wanted to focus on this educational part because sometimes festivals can get quite, um, what&#039 ; s the word? Insular. Yeah. And we want to make it, we want folks to know that this festival&#039 ; s for everyone. You know, no matter what the background, no matter what the age, no matter what the locale that is for everybody to be able to come together and learn about API culture. Willis: Right. Gotcha. Martinez: So-- Willis: Uh, so can you share your experience of how the event actually unfolded? Was it what you were hoping for? Was it a nice turnout? Martinez: Well, it&#039 ; s actually in three weeks. Willis: Oh, my mistake. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Martinez: &lt ; laughs&gt ; . So we&#039 ; re in the thick of it. Willis: Gotcha. Okay. I must have, misread that. My apologies. &lt ; laughs&gt ; My understanding is that it already happened earlier this year. Martinez: No worries. Willis: Okay. So it&#039 ; s happening in three weeks from now! Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: Okay. That&#039 ; s awesome. So I guess, um, what are you expecting? Are you expecting it to be a pretty big turnout? Martinez: Well, that&#039 ; s what we&#039 ; re hoping for! &lt ; laughs&gt ; Willis: Of course. Martinez: Um, but as far as how it&#039 ; s unfolded, you know, it did just like anything, it&#039 ; s evolved. The, the, the vision has evolved a little bit. In, in, the, the, yeah, the vision and the mission have all evolved quite a bit, but as far as like what people can expect, because we wanted it to be, you know, educational, there you will find the typical things that you would find in a festival, yeah, is performances and vendors and food and things like that. But I think probably my most favorite part that has sort of evolved since the initial planning is this contemporary aspect of what API culture looks like. So, I mean, you can use K-Pop [Korean pop music] as a great example, right? Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: Like, and the phenomenon around K-pop and, where that came from. So initially we were focusing mostly on traditional practices and performances, but then we realized how many amazing API artists are out there and are deserving of recognition, but may not necessarily be practicing what would be considered a traditional art. So that&#039 ; s, I think I&#039 ; m really excited to see what some of these performers are bringing, these API artists and performers are bringing to the festival. I think that&#039 ; s gonna be a really fun aspect of it. That was, for me, it was, it was an unexpected but pleasant surprise addition to the festival. Willis: Right. Absolutely. Uh, do you know about how many different ethnicities, cultures are gonna be represented at this event? Martinez: We have about, um, over 20. Willis: Wow. Martinez: Yeah. We have about over 20. Willis: That&#039 ; s impressive. And a lot of them have just, have they been coming to you about it, or do you reach out to them? How does that usually work? Martinez: You know I, I&#039 ; m really fortunate to have been embedded in the Pacific Islander community in San Diego since I, you know, the dance community is very close-knit. So I&#039 ; m really fortunate to be able to reach out to other directors of performance groups that I am, I have relationships with. And they were the first ones to jump on and say, yes, we would love to support you. Um, so that was really how the momentum, started. Right? Because, you know, you start with one performance group and then another performance group. Oh! And then so-and-so&#039 ; s performing, and then another one. And so I wasn&#039 ; t as, connected within, the AA [African American] community though, and that has been an amazing experience is meeting other directors in their respective arts, like, &lt ; unclear&gt ; and, Lion Dance, and, because it&#039 ; s just, we are all, we&#039 ; re all the same at the end of the day. And um, so I, this initial year we did a huge, we did a lot of outreach. We have a great leadership team, and so between us and our outreach and our circles, we, we got a lot of support from folks. And it didn&#039 ; t take much of an ask. Folks really wanted to be a part of this. They really wanted this. Willis: I can imagine. That&#039 ; s fascinating. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So is there anything else that you uh, or how else do you continue to help, I guess Native Hawaiian culture and how can, for example, someone like myself get involved if they wanted to, kind of help and promote in that area? Martinez: Oh gosh. Um, oh, I&#039 ; m sorry. Can you repeat that again? &lt ; laughs&gt ; Willis: So I guess what I&#039 ; m really getting at, like how can someone else, if they really want to, you know, help and be a part of the cause, how would they go about doing that? Would they just reach out to you? Martinez: Oh, yeah. I mean the, I mean, what, that&#039 ; s the irony in it, right? Is the majority of, of my supporters and our team are not Native Hawaiian. And, but it&#039 ; s that allyship and because they you know, believe in, in, in the mission they&#039 ; re absolutely willing to just jump in &lt ; laughs&gt ; and do whatever needs to be done. Um, so yeah, I mean anybody who ever want, who wants to be an ally, we are, we are here and happy and-- Willis: Come on down! Martinez: Yes. Ready to, to you know, just grow our community. Willis: Right. That&#039 ; s so cool. So you kind of may have already answered this earlier but overall, as you reflect on everything you have done and accomplished to this point in your life, what are you most proud of and what has brought you the most joy? Has it been, maybe the hula aspect, um, teaching elders, children, or is there something else? Martinez: &lt ; laughs&gt ; Uh I think, it&#039 ; s my own children, right? That will always be my most proud accomplishment. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Them as individuals, but also taking that perspective again of what I really could have needed or wanted in my upbringing, I feel like I provided that for my children and have instilled that into my children. And, knowing that I know that they&#039 ; re gonna move forward and pass that on to their children, that&#039 ; s, that will always be my proudest accomplishment, knowing that the generations far after I&#039 ; m gone, will still be carrying on those, on those traditions. Willis: Yeah. That&#039 ; s fantastic. And then, before we close our interview, is there anything else you would like to mention? Maybe something I didn&#039 ; t ask you about that you really were hoping I would or? &lt ; laughs&gt ; Martinez: Oh gosh. Um, not that I can think of. Um, yeah, no nothing &lt ; laughs&gt ; Willis: Okay. Yeah, no that&#039 ; s perfect. I think we definitely covered a lot of great stuff in this interview. So, really appreciate your time, Ilima. This was very informative. I think a lot of people can get a lot out of this whole interview and, really appreciate everything that you do for not only Hawaiian culture, but just the community in general. So thank you so much for your time. Martinez: Yeah, thank you. Willis: Alright. &lt ; Martinez laughs&gt ; Now I&#039 ; m gonna go ahead and stop the recording. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 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Interview April 7, 2023 Description An account of the resource Ilima Kam Martinez is a California State University San Marcos alum and the founder and President of UMEKE, an organization that promotes and preserves Hawaiian culture through hula dancing. In this interview, Ilima discusses her upbringing, the influence and relationship with her father, the importance of hula in Hawaiian cultures, the challenges she faced during the Covid-19 pandemic, her passion for elders, her mentors, going back to school to earn her degree, and her goals for UMEKE moving forward. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-027 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- Hawaii -- Culture Hawaii -- Social life and customs Hula (Dance) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Hawaiian Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Ilima Kam Martinez Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ilima Kam Martinez Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ryan Willis Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history History Department internship Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/8b7ea359fd88c198e863d417f2251a4e.pdf f94190d28b4466324946ce6be2435b49 PDF Text Text ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Ryan Willis: Alright. Hello, this is Ryan Willis, and today I am interviewing Ilima Kam Martinez for the California State University San Marcos Library Special Collections oral history project. Today is April 7, 2023, and the time is 1:47 PM, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Ilima, thank you so much for interviewing with me today. Ilima Kam Martinez: Thank you for the invitation. Willis: Of course. So, let's go ahead and start off, um, from the beginning. Where were you born? Martinez: I was born here in San Diego, California, and raised here in both Oceanside and Carlsbad area. Willis: Perfect. And if you don't mind, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood? Uh, what was it like growing up for you? Martinez: It's just-it's always an interesting question because I think I will answer that much differently than I would've say, you know, uh, 25 years ago. Um, I… attended schools in Carlsbad, which is a predominantly, you know, affluent Caucasian community. And coming from a really diverse background, um, I, uh… let me think. Willis: Yeah, yeah. Take your time <Martinez laughs>. Not a problem. Martinez: Um, that really set me on the path that I find myself on today. I grew up with both parents in my life. Two sisters, two older sisters. I'm the youngest. Um, my father was a retired civil engineer from Pearl Harbor. So he had me, you know, by the time I was born, he was already at an age where he was retired. So, I spent most of my time with him and being raised by him. Willis: Okay. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: That's really interesting. So, you said your father worked in-at Pearl Harbor? Transcribed by Ryan Willis 1 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So did you spend a lot of time in Hawaii growing up? Martinez: I did. So, I also have two half-sisters, that remained in Hawaii, from my father's first marriage. And, when I say half-sisters, that's just, more literal than anything there. So I spent a lot of time, with my dad and my sisters during the summer times growing up. So we often would visit-Willis: Gotcha. Martinez: Hawaii. Willis: Did you ever have any interest in living there full-time? Or was it just more of like, oh, we'll just, you know, visit here and there? Martinez: I always thought I would. I always thought that I would, eventually wind up there. Um, and I'm not totally disregarding the possibility of that happening in the future. But yes, I do hope to find myself back there one day. Willis: That's awesome. Yeah. I've always wanted to visit, but never have to this point. Um, were there any influential family members or friends growing up that you really looked up to? Martinez: I would have to say my dad. Willis: Your dad. Martinez: Yeah. My dad was, he was so, he came from a, a generation right, where it was very, um, old school. You know, he was working at Pearl Harbor at the time that it was bombed. And so he, he, although he wasn't… he came from a generation, that was not especially affectionate or maybe verbalized, you know, their, their love for their families and friends, but always showed it, you know, in by example. Transcribed by Ryan Willis 2 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Always being present with me, always, you know, taking me to, you know, activities. And, so although he might not have been, you know, that ty-not typical, but extremely affectionate or, you know, verbalizing love that he was very instrumental in what I would consider to be a really happy childhood. Willis: Right. Yeah. That's awesome. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So you said that he was actually at Pearl Harbor, though when the bombing took place? Martinez: He was mm-hmm. Willis: Wow. So what kind of stories did he have <Martinez laughs> regarding that? Or was that something that he kind of just didn't like to talk about? Martinez: He, it's funny because I actually didn't even know he was a civil engineer at Pearl Harbor until his 80th birthday party. Which took place in Hawaii. In his retirement he was actually a tennis instructor for the Carlsbad Parks and Recreation for twenty years. That's what I always thought that he was. <laughs> To me, that's what my dad did for a living. Willis: Right. Martinez: Oh, he's a tennis instructor! <laughs>. And when somebody, you know, was giving a speech at his birthday party instead he was a civil engineer, you know, I'm already a young adult at that point, right? At Pearl Harbor. I was, I had no idea. But that was typical of my dad. He was very, very humble. Um, very modest. And so, it probably shouldn't have surprised me, but yeah. He didn't talk about much about his experience, at Pearl Harbor at the time. Later on, you know, when he, so he had suffered a major stroke in his eighties and, had moved in, with my family and I, and so I was his sole caregiver during about a span, about, of about 10 years. And things would, he would start to talk about it but never really elaborate. And, and I just always, you know, knew better than to, to pry that he would tell me what I was meant to know. Willis: Right. Transcribed by Ryan Willis 3 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: What he felt that I should know. Willis: Yeah. If you didn’t find out about it until you were, you know, a young adult. So that kind of-- <laughs> Martinez: Right. Willis: Explains it right there. Like yeah, you probably didn’t want to go there. Martinez: Exactly. And, and my dad was such a, he was such, a planner, right? Like, he was always very organized, always had things in place. So he actually had written his own obituary several years before he even had his stroke. And so it was actually through his obituary that he wrote that I learned a lot about him. Willis: I see. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: That's fascinating. Martinez: Mm-hmm. <laughs> Willis: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So kind of along the lines of Hawaiian culture, when did you first take an interest in it? And was there a point in your life where you kind of knew that that was something that you really wanted to focus on in your life, or even with a career? Transcribed by Ryan Willis 4 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: I, I think that so being the youngest of my siblings, I was the only one who was born here in San Diego. All my siblings, all my sisters were born in Hawaii, raised in Hawaii. And so I feel like there was always that yearning, you know, to be connected to Hawaii. And, um, it's really interesting because what I didn't know at the time in my upbringing, you know, with my dad, what I didn't realize was very special and unique to Hawaiian culture? I didn't even realize that's what it was until, until later on. Right? Just, you know, maybe the foods we ate, the music my, my dad would play, he was a “slap <unclear> guitarist.” He played ukulele. Um, but, it, to me, it was just my home. Right? So I think that it was pretty, I think I wanna say sometime around maybe middle school that I had seen a hula performance. And I remember it having such an impact on me at that moment that I was like, ahh! I don't know, there was just this instant connection, although I had seen, you know, hula before, but it was just this one particular moment. And so, that was when I had asked my dad, I would like to take hula classes, but again, I mean, I'm in Carlsbad, right? And like where, where do you even find something like that? And, and, um. But we, we did. And so he, enrolled me in classes at that time. And it's been a lifelong journey of learning ever since. And just something that I've always felt, so it, it's been the constant in my life right? Where I could go, always rely on hula to, to, um… it was just a, an anchor, you know? Right. No matter what else is going on in my life, hula was always and still is that anchor for me, that makes me feel safe. Willis: Right. Martinez: Yeah. Willis: That's so cool. Yeah. I was gonna ask you, because I know that we, had talked in our pre-interview specifically about hula and how important that is to Hawaiian culture. I understand that you actually teach it as well. Martinez: I do <laughs>, I do. I have a hālau in, which is a traditional hula school in Vista. I just opened up the hālau oh gosh. We just celebrated our fourth anniversary. Um, and it's been, it's been wonderful. Um, I think for those that have not had experience in hālau it's, it can be challenging to understand, but hālau equates for a lot of people family, right? Like in its essence, yes, it's a school of hula, but really it's in, its, in its foundational form it's about family and it works and operates very much like a family. So sometimes I wonder if it was really that I wanted to open the hālau for <laughs>, you know, teaching hula or if it was for the purpose of being able to provide a home and a family for, for students. Willis: Right. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Ryan Willis 5 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Willis: That's awesome. You also mentioned that you have a passion for elders, and I know that you were teaching them as well pre-Covid. Is that correct? Martinez: Pre-Covid I was volunteering at the Oceanside Senior Center. And I think it also again goes back to my dad. I think a lot of things <laughs> will go back to my dad. He was, I mean he was fifty-eight years old when I was born, and I think about that and it just kind of blows my mind. And as being his caregiver, kūpuna or elders in Hawaiian culture are so, I think that's one of the many unique things about Hawaiian culture is that we, help, hold our kūpuna in such high regard because we know that their experience, we know that their, the lives that they have lived and their experience far surpasses ours. So we always know to go to them and respect, you know, the knowledge that they, that they bear. So yeah-Willis: And I think you also mentioned that part of the reason why you've really enjoyed teaching the hula to seniors or elders is because it exercises their mind not just their body, right? Like you're just kind of focusing on the whole package there. Can you maybe elaborate a little bit more on that? Martinez: Yeah. I mean, hula at its core is encompassing of, mental, physical, and spiritual, which you know, I've learned that not everybody realizes or may know that. And so, when you're, when I'm teaching with kūpuna, having those three facets; that physical, mental and emotional part I have seen has been such, has had such a huge impact on them. You know, just the simple act of coming together, of sharing meals together, which we do a lot, <laughs> The cognition that goes into learning choreography, I have seen such an a really impressive trajectory, upward trajectory in how much now that my kūpuna class can retain as opposed to when they may have first started dancing. Right. I think that, watching that, like being a witness to this, this, how it can, how hula can positively impact them, is just, such a huge motivator to just keep going, to just to keep doing that and okay now what else can we do? Willis: Yeah. Seems like that would be very rewarding. Martinez: Mm-hmm. It's Extremely rewarding. Willis: So you were teaching, classes for free to seniors right before CovidMartinez: Before Covid. Willis: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 6 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 And then once Covid hit. So what was that whole experience like for you once Covid hit and you weren't able to teach people in person. I bet that was really difficult for you. Martinez: <laughs>. It was, it was. It provided its challenges. I think a lot of us shared the same challenges. Trying to communicate and, keep a community online was just really challenging. However, I feel like during the time of the pandemic folks were looking to have that sense of community that when you would've thought that we would have flailed, as a hālau, it actually just thrived, because of that need that, just that human need to want to come together and have a community. So when it was time, when we reached that time where we could come together outdoors, I mean, we, we did it immediately. As soon as we were told that we could conduct classes outdoors it was immediately and students came out and didn't hesitate. I would say probably the most challenging thing was what is inherently cult- culturally inherent to us is the act of like, exchanging hānai or, you know kiss, kisses or hugs. And culturally, that's what we do when we greet each other, when we say farewell to each other, is to always hānai each other. And that was probably one of the largest challenges because we couldn’t even, like, <Willis laughs> we couldn't touchWillis: Right. Martinez: We couldn'tWillis: Six feet. Martinez: Yeah. That six feet. And it went against everything that we, that was so ingrained in us that that, that was pretty tough. Willis: That was such an awkward moment in time. Like, nobody really knew how to interact with each other. I want to give you a hug, but I guess let's give you an air hug for now. Martinez: Yeah, yeah. Willis: But I can see how that could be very difficult, especially with your culture, just wanting to be right there with the person and be able to, you know, exchange those pleasantries. So-Martinez: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 7 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Yeah. Willis: Yeah. Going back to when you first started learning hula, do you specifically remember an instructor or somebody that taught you or that really had an influence on that? Martinez: I couldn't single one out to be honest, because with each kumu or teacher that I have had has had such a huge influence on the kumu that I am today. I, I couldn't credit just, just one. They all affected me in different ways, but equally impactful ways. I'll note that, so I was, <unclear> is the formal graduation ceremony that a kuma hula goes through in order to, it's like it's a method of training, right? To become a kuma hula. And so the kuma that I was very honored and so blessed to be able to graduate under, he's, his name is Kawaikapuokalani Hewett. And he is so prolific and knowledgeable in, in all aspects of Hawaiian culture that, and just to have that source, to be able to always go back to for the rest of, you know, my life like, that's just, it's just really, I feel so, so blessed that I have him, in my life. And, and the Hawaiian community is blessed to have him because he's so gracious and generous with his, with his ‘ike or his knowledge, where I think that as an indigenous culture, we often can gatekeep you know, rightfully so. But we can often gatekeep some knowledge because of how it has been, exploited right? In the past. Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: And the fact that, that kumu Kawaikapuokalani is, is, has such a kind heart and willing to be able to, share knowledge is, is really, really priceless because it has benefited so many of his students. Willis: Right, right. Do you remember when you met him exactly? Was it when you were first learning hula or? Martinez: Oh my goodness. Well he is a, he, I can't remember exactly because he's very well known in Hawaii. He is a famous composer or songwriter and poet. And so my father being a musician, I remember seeing Kawaikapuo CDs in my home, you know at the time. So I, it's actually kind of interesting cause I feel like it was almost a, uh, predetermined that this relationship was going to circle around. Right. And ironically, he, and I can't obviously say the name, but he resides on the same street in Hawaii that my sister resided in at the time. So when I would visit my sister <laughs> in Hawaii, it was the same street that my now kumu still lives on. So, it, it's just-Willis: Oh wow. How convenient is that? Martinez: It's just, yeah, <laughs>. I’m going to say coincident, there’s no such thing as coincidences. Willis: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 8 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Right. No, I agree. <Martinez laughs>. Aside from hula, are there any other specific Hawaiian traditions that you really feel passionate about? Martinez: Oh my goodness. Um, I feel that hula does encompass all of those traditions. Right? And I think that's why it is so predominant in Hawaiian culture because it encompasses every aspect of Hawaiian culture. Protocols are implemented in hula that are implemented in… that really dictate, the belief systems of Hawaiian people. So, I wouldn't, I, yeah. I don't think, yeah. <laughs> Willis: No, that's perfect. Do you think there's any like, big misconceptions about Hawaiians or Hawaiian culture in general? I mean, like stereotypes <Martinez laughs> from your experiences? Martinez: Yeah. <more laughter>. Yeah. There's, I wouldn't even know where to begin <laughs>. Willis: <laughs> I know it's kind of a loaded question. Martinez: Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. But if I had to Like if I had to choose, you know, one or two of the most common stereotypes or misconceptions, gosh, I would, I… Hmm, Hmm. Well, I'll address one thing only because it's fresh in my mind. And I was posed this question recently was I often get asked, “Oh, how much Hawaiian are you? And it's interesting when folks ask this question because it's almost like they're putting a measure to it. Yeah? And I think what folks don't understand is that as a Hawaiian people, we identify our Hawaiian-ness is by our lineage and our ancestors. Right? It's not about a blood quantum. And I, I think I'll just leave it at that <laughs>. Willis: That's perfect. I appreciate that. Didn't mean to put you on the spot. Martinez: No, no, it's a great question. It was just hard to decide what it would be the, what is most often misunderstood. Because there's plenty. There’s plenty. Willis: Yeah. Understood. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So this next question's gonna kind of lead into your organization that I want to talk to you about- Transcribed by Ryan Willis 9 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: But around when and how did you begin your journey in assisting with spreading and preserving traditions of Hawaii? Martinez: I'm sorry, can you ask--? Willis: Yeah, of course. So I was just wondering around when was it, when you were maybe a teenager, young adult, when you decided, okay, I'm gonna really start to assist with spreading and preserving the traditions of Hawaiian culture? Martinez: Hmm. Oh gosh. I think I can't recall when I know I was younger, but I can't recall the exact time. But as an adult, I always knew. Like as a young adult, I knew that that would be my mission, for a couple reasons. One, it was the accessibility of, learning Hawaiian culture being a Hawaiian who lives in diaspora, right? Who doesn't, who isn't living in their ancestral land. So, just, you know, personally from my own personal experience not having that access and really having to actively search for it, I knew that I wanted to be able to provide that for other native Hawaiians that are not, no longer residing in Hawaii. Another reason is that just like anything else, any sort of extracurricular activity, sometimes classes are not affordable to, native Hawaiian population. Right? They can be, that can be a barrier, a financial barrier. And that's always kind of been, to me an interesting, dilemma as a kumu hula, and as someone who has a hālau, I always wanna make sure our classes are accessible to everyone who wants to learn. However, at the end of the day, I still have a lease to pay. Right? An electric bill. And, and so how can I do that in such a way that it can benefit students. How can I teach, culture in a way that can benefit students, that can still benefit financially for my family, right? Because I dedicate a lot of my time to this. And then the third component is, how can it benefit the community as a whole? And I think that's where UMEKE, our organization comes in, right? Establishing that nonprofit organization where we can be able to provide access to culture for everyone. Because I believe anyone and everyone who would like to learn Native Hawaiian or not, should be able to. Should be able to do that and do it in a, an a appropriate and an authentic way you know, because we don't live… Because of our locale, there are often folks who may be teaching a version of hula or, but perhaps they don't have the education to be teaching Hawaiian culture in, you know in an authentic way. And that's not to say that it's, you know I'm sure the intention, the intentions are good and, and whatnot, but they're-- In San Diego in particular, the native Hawaiian community is very passionate about being, taking on that kuleana or that responsibility of educating about Hawaiian culture in a way that it's, that it's coming from the native Hawaiian community. Yeah. I know that, personally, and this is just me personally, is that because Hawaiian culture has been commercialized for so long, I actively work towards deconstructing those, those, those stereotypes that surround Hawaiian culture that mostly came about once Hawaii became a, a very popular travel destination. Right? Um, so-- Transcribed by Ryan Willis 10 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Willis: Gotcha. So speaking a little bit more on, UMEKE when did you first, establish your organization? Martinez: We filed in 2021, October of 2021. And we were stagnant for a little bit as we were kind of building our capacity, and I've just recently become more active and had some really great opportunities to be able to-Willis: And you are the founder, you are the president. It's really, you know, your idea. Right? You were the one that was like, let's do this, let's push forward. Martinez: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Willis: Was there anyone else that hopped on board with you that kind of helped you get it going? Or was it pretty much your project and your project only? Martinez: Oh my gosh. I had a huge support system, even from people that don't even realize they were part of it. They were part of it. <laughs> And again, it goes back to, my, the elders within the Hawaiian community, specifically in San Diego. Those aunties, you know, I have some really amazing female role models in the Native Hawaiian community, in the kūpuna. And when I see the work that they have done and dedicated their lives to, I realize that this next generation, that I now have that responsibility to keep on that pathway that they've, that they've blazed already. Right? Mm-hmm. Willis: Right. So obviously it's still a relatively new organization, but what are you most proud of, so far, and what are you kind of hoping to accomplish moving forward? Martinez: Oh, gosh. I'm at this moment most proud of a grant we were recently working on within collaboration with a local school district to be able to bring hula to -- and ukulele -- to an elementary school that has a significant Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander [NHPI] population. And providing that accessibility component, where, you know students might not otherwise be able to afford it financially or may not just even have the transportation for that, right? Because it happens during school. It, the accessibility just makes, made it so easy. So I would say that because I reflect on what I would've really loved at that age and been exposed to, and being able to take ownership of that [NHPI] identity in a place other than my home, among my friends, I think that would've been really impactful for me as a young person. And so-Willis: Definitely. Yeah. And kids remember assemblies like that as well. Transcribed by Ryan Willis 11 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: I can still tell you some of the ones that I attended in elementary school and like the impact they had on me so that's a really cool thing. And then, as far as like, looking forward to future, do you have any goals in mind or is it really just continue to do what you're doing and hope more people hop on? Martinez: <laughs> Yeah, I mean, as far as goals it's so interesting because when this group of us set out to start UMEKE, there were really folks that just wholeheartedly believed in me and my vision. And when we set out to do this, I think just like anything when you start something you're like, “Ohh!,” you know. <laughs> We weren't sure how successful we would be, but it's so interesting because opportunities have really been presenting themselves without us seeking them out, which to me, speaks to the mission of UMEKE that it was something that was really needed in our community because projects are really kind of floating our way, and it aligns with what we would love to do. So although we didn't know exactly maybe specifically what a project was going to look like, folks are coming to us with their projects. And so it's, that's really exciting because it's like, oh, there was a need! We, okay, great. You know- <laughs> Willis: <laughs> It’s all for a reason. Martinez: It, yes. Yeah. Willis: That's really cool. Shifting gears a little bit, I understand you are a Cal State San Marco alum? Martinez: I am. Willis: So you earned your bachelor's degree in Indigenous Anthropology, is that correct? Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: in 2019? Transcribed by Ryan Willis 12 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So what was that, what made you decide to ultimately go for a bachelor's degree? What kind of pushed you in that direction? Martinez: That's a funny story. So I have four children, and my eldest was in high school at the time and, you know neither of my parents went to college. And between my siblings and I, we didn't have a four-year degree. Right. So I was very, very, very <laughs>, persistent that my children go to a four-year college, and I realized that I couldn't preach <laughs> higher education to them. Unless I went ahead and did it myself and so I did <laughter>. Yeah. Willis: That's very admirable. It's, it's not easy, especially when you're a parent. I can attest to that. It is not easy to continue on with school. I mean, you just have so many other things going on. Just to be able to put aside some time for that is a challenge within itself. Was it a difficult decision? I mean, I guess that's the obvious to, to go back to school or, but once you got in, was it, was it easy for you? Did it come naturally, or what was that kind of whole process like when you first started attending classes? Martinez: It was interesting going back as an, as a non-traditional student and, you know, at my age with children, I knew I was going to go into it slow and steady. I wasn't in a rush. And so I had just started with maybe two classes per semester. And, and I actually thought of it as a blessing because I got to study exactly what I wanted to. I knew that cultural anthropology was going to be something that would maintain my interest and my goals. And so, when I had learned that Cal State [San Marcos] specifically had an indigenous anthropology degree, it, it, it just all made sense. So it wasn't, it was challenging maybe logistically, having, juggling, family, but learning and the like-minded folks that I got to meet, especially this younger generation! They're amazing, you know, <laughter> and getting invigorated by this young energy. For me it was a, it was a great experience, and you know, when you tell somebody that you're going to school for indigenous anthropology, you always get that question, what are you gonna do with that? Well, guess what? I use it every single day! <laughs>, Willis: Right. Not everybody can say that, so that's impressive. Yeah. Uh, so did you come away with a new perspective after graduating? Martinez: Um, hmm. I think the perspective that I got was, probably one of the most important perspectives is that outside perspective, right? Because we're sometimes always just living in our bubble and really only see what's happening in our immediate surroundings. And so, I would say it changed my perspective in that, in the sense that, one, learning about other cultures, and when we learn about other cultures, it really helps us to understand more of our own, and being with such a diverse, because Cal State [San Marcos] does have a really diverse student body, right? So different ages and ethnicities. And so I think Transcribed by Ryan Willis 13 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 that, those, all of those things combined are, are what changed my perspective, not the actual piece of paper <laughs>. Willis: Yeah, no. I totally understand. Um, as far as the other cultures that you learned about, was there one in particular other than Hawaiian that really caught your attention? Martinez: Oh my goodness. I wouldn't say specifically one. I think that just studying other indigenous cultures, particularly, you know, the ones within our area, like the Kumeyaay and the Luiseño, I just loved learning about how more similar Hawaiian culture is, with the [San Diego-are] native communities than not, and so I would say it that was just, and, and that was with everything. That's with belief systems, that's with, our, our medical systems, how we view health. Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: How we view, our, structures of our families, our structure of our communities. So, now I'm not sure that I <laughs> answered your question. Willis: Yeah, that's perfect. Um, so I did want to touch base on an event that, um, you obviously had a huge hand in, earlier this year in February, you were able to establish the first ever southern California, Asian, and Pacific Islander Festival. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: Which, um, took place actually here in Oceanside. Uh, first off, what was kind of the vision of this, event and how long did it take for this idea to become a reality? Martinez: Um, I can say I can't take credit for coming up with the idea. As, but as now, like currently being a cocreator of, of the event for me personally, I come from a multiculturally- multicultural background, so, um, as a lot of us are right? So yes, I'm Native Hawaiian. Um, in addition to that, I'm also Japanese and Chinese and Mexican. And, coming from such a, a multi-ethnic background growing up in North [San Diego] County, I think that, my drive behind this event is one, bringing that diversity to North County that it hasn't seen a lot of in the past that, and maybe on this, on this level, right? Willis: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 14 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Mm-hmm. Martinez: The API [Asian & Pacific Islander] community being highlighted to this extent in this area, we're quite underrepresented. And I knew that going into this festival that our number one focus was always going to be on the educational aspect of it, and getting, you know, circling back to that, like when we understand other cultures, that we really begin to understand ourselves more, and we wanted to focus on this educational part because sometimes festivals can get quite, um, what's the word? Insular. Yeah. And we want to make it, we want folks to know that this festival's for everyone. You know, no matter what the background, no matter what the age, no matter what the locale that is for everybody to be able to come together and learn about API culture. Willis: Right. Gotcha. Martinez: So-Willis: Uh, so can you share your experience of how the event actually unfolded? Was it what you were hoping for? Was it a nice turnout? Martinez: Well, it's actually in three weeks. Willis: Oh, my mistake. <laughs> Martinez: <laughs>. So we're in the thick of it. Willis: Gotcha. Okay. I must have, misread that. My apologies. <laughs> My understanding is that it already happened earlier this year. Martinez: No worries. Willis: Okay. So it's happening in three weeks from now! Transcribed by Ryan Willis 15 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: Okay. That's awesome. So I guess, um, what are you expecting? Are you expecting it to be a pretty big turnout? Martinez: Well, that's what we're hoping for! <laughs> Willis: Of course. Martinez: Um, but as far as how it's unfolded, you know, it did just like anything, it's evolved. The, the, the vision has evolved a little bit. In, in, the, the, yeah, the vision and the mission have all evolved quite a bit, but as far as like what people can expect, because we wanted it to be, you know, educational, there you will find the typical things that you would find in a festival, yeah, is performances and vendors and food and things like that. But I think probably my most favorite part that has sort of evolved since the initial planning is this contemporary aspect of what API culture looks like. So, I mean, you can use K-Pop [Korean pop music] as a great example, right? Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: Like, and the phenomenon around K-pop and, where that came from. So initially we were focusing mostly on traditional practices and performances, but then we realized how many amazing API artists are out there and are deserving of recognition, but may not necessarily be practicing what would be considered a traditional art. So that's, I think I'm really excited to see what some of these performers are bringing, these API artists and performers are bringing to the festival. I think that's gonna be a really fun aspect of it. That was, for me, it was, it was an unexpected but pleasant surprise addition to the festival. Willis: Right. Absolutely. Uh, do you know about how many different ethnicities, cultures are gonna be represented at this event? Martinez: We have about, um, over 20. Willis: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 16 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Wow. Martinez: Yeah. We have about over 20. Willis: That's impressive. And a lot of them have just, have they been coming to you about it, or do you reach out to them? How does that usually work? Martinez: You know I, I'm really fortunate to have been embedded in the Pacific Islander community in San Diego since I, you know, the dance community is very close-knit. So I'm really fortunate to be able to reach out to other directors of performance groups that I am, I have relationships with. And they were the first ones to jump on and say, yes, we would love to support you. Um, so that was really how the momentum, started. Right? Because, you know, you start with one performance group and then another performance group. Oh! And then so-and-so's performing, and then another one. And so I wasn't as, connected within, the AA [African American] community though, and that has been an amazing experience is meeting other directors in their respective arts, like, <unclear> and, Lion Dance, and, because it's just, we are all, we're all the same at the end of the day. And um, so I, this initial year we did a huge, we did a lot of outreach. We have a great leadership team, and so between us and our outreach and our circles, we, we got a lot of support from folks. And it didn't take much of an ask. Folks really wanted to be a part of this. They really wanted this. Willis: I can imagine. That's fascinating. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So is there anything else that you uh, or how else do you continue to help, I guess Native Hawaiian culture and how can, for example, someone like myself get involved if they wanted to, kind of help and promote in that area? Martinez: Oh gosh. Um, oh, I'm sorry. Can you repeat that again? <laughs> Willis: So I guess what I'm really getting at, like how can someone else, if they really want to, you know, help and be a part of the cause, how would they go about doing that? Would they just reach out to you? Martinez: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 17 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Oh, yeah. I mean the, I mean, what, that's the irony in it, right? Is the majority of, of my supporters and our team are not Native Hawaiian. And, but it's that allyship and because they you know, believe in, in, in the mission they're absolutely willing to just jump in <laughs> and do whatever needs to be done. Um, so yeah, I mean anybody who ever want, who wants to be an ally, we are, we are here and happy and-Willis: Come on down! Martinez: Yes. Ready to, to you know, just grow our community. Willis: Right. That's so cool. So you kind of may have already answered this earlier but overall, as you reflect on everything you have done and accomplished to this point in your life, what are you most proud of and what has brought you the most joy? Has it been, maybe the hula aspect, um, teaching elders, children, or is there something else? Martinez: <laughs> Uh I think, it's my own children, right? That will always be my most proud accomplishment. <laughs> Them as individuals, but also taking that perspective again of what I really could have needed or wanted in my upbringing, I feel like I provided that for my children and have instilled that into my children. And, knowing that I know that they're gonna move forward and pass that on to their children, that's, that will always be my proudest accomplishment, knowing that the generations far after I'm gone, will still be carrying on those, on those traditions. Willis: Yeah. That's fantastic. And then, before we close our interview, is there anything else you would like to mention? Maybe something I didn't ask you about that you really were hoping I would or? <laughs> Martinez: Oh gosh. Um, not that I can think of. Um, yeah, no nothing <laughs> Willis: Okay. Yeah, no that's perfect. I think we definitely covered a lot of great stuff in this interview. So, really appreciate your time, Ilima. This was very informative. I think a lot of people can get a lot out of this whole interview and, really appreciate everything that you do for not only Hawaiian culture, but just the community in general. So thank you so much for your time. Martinez: Yeah, thank you. Willis: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 18 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Alright. <Martinez laughs> Now I'm gonna go ahead and stop the recording. Transcribed by Ryan Willis 19 2023-05-25 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Martinez, Ilima Kam. Interview transcript, April 7, 2023 Description An account of the resource Ilima Kam Martinez is a California State University San Marcos alum and the founder and President of UMEKE, an organization that promotes and preserves Hawaiian culture through hula dancing. In this interview, Ilima discusses her upbringing, the influence and relationship with her father, the importance of hula in Hawaiian cultures, the challenges she faced during the Covid-19 pandemic, her passion for elders, her mentors, going back to school to earn her degree, and her goals for UMEKE moving forward. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-07 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- Hawaii -- Culture Hawaii -- Social life and customs Hula (Dance) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Hawaii San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Hawaiian Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Ilima Kam Martinez License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-27 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ilima Kam Martinez Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ryan Willis Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history History Department internship Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0fdc360b76778aa3cb86f76a275e9ed3.pdf d1536bca656a02dae88e07a6d8a2a462 PDF Text Text JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Sean Visintainer: This is Sean Visintainer and I'm interviewing Jake Northington as part of the Cal State San Marcos University Archive's Oral History Project. The interview took place on Friday, November 22nd, 2019 at the University Library, California State University San Marcos. Jake, thank you very much for talking with us today. I thought we'd start off by talking about some of your formative years, especially how they relate to your passion for photography. So, I wanted to ask you a few questions about your childhood and early adult life. And I wanted to start off just by asking, where were you born? Jake Northington: That I don't know the answer to. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, I grew up as an orphan and I lived in many cities, many states. Uh, I've seen a couple of birth certificates. So, not really sure, but, I grew up in East St. Louis, Illinois. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: That's why I grew up. Visintainer: So you grew up in East St. Louis. Was there any ways in which your childhood or your upbringing influenced your photography? Northington: Uh, yes. I would say yes. You know, uh, if you've ever heard of a guy by the name of Gordon Parks. So throughout the fifties and sixties, he photographed the civil rights movement and a lot of activists socially. So, seeing those type of pictures and watching movies produced by Spike Lee and other people through Black films, they would use a lot of still shots to enter into the movie or to exit out of the movie. So, the beginning and the ending to bookcase the movies, they would show a lot of still shots from Gordon Parks. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: You know, so that was probably the first time I saw images like that and the images Gordon Parks takes in particular of Black people living everyday life, you know? So, and that introduced me to other photographers that particularly took pictures of Black people that you would never see that I wouldn't see in magazines or on TV or anything like that. So. Visintainer: And when you say he took pictures of Black people living everyday life, are there any images that you recall that really stand out to you? Northington: Yes. Uh, he has a picture of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King smiling together at a banquet function. And it is like [19]66 or [19]67. And these are two people that have polarizing views of what Black people should do in America socially. So, you have one guy who wants to fully work with the system and you have one guy who wants to fully oppose the system. So, you have two different dynamics at play from the same, uh, atmosphere from the same starting point growing up at the same time yet they have two different ways of going about it. And then you see these people cordial and friendly. So that's an amazing picture for people in the Black community to see that you can have opposing views and still work for the same progression of your people. So. Visintainer: Okay. Thank you. Did he take pictures as well of less famous Black people? Transcribed by Julia Friedman 1 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Northington: Yes. Yes, because that's, again, the start. So, from the research, it seems that he took a lot of pictures of jazz musicians. He even did short films himself, you know? So it was all encompassing. He became more famous for the photography, but he also did films. I believe he wrote a book as well. And, uh, so it's, it's a little, you know, all-encompassing to produce an entire artwork with the varying degrees and various wrinkles. So, it's not just one avenue and that's kind of the way I take my artwork, because photography's just one element of it. I didn't start off taking pictures. I started off drawing pictures. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, I draw still and that's still the basis of it all is drawing. So, I would consider taking pictures, just drawing with the camera. Visintainer: Alright. So when did you make the transition from drawing into photography? Northington: Just three years ago, in one class here at this school. I took a--it's a digital photography class taught by Nancy diBenedetto. She's in the Navy and she was an adjunct professor at that moment. I don't know if that may be in her second or third year teaching here. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, in, uh, she thought I took pretty good pictures. So she gave me a few pointers. She kind of showed us a lot of stuff in the class. You know, we did so many field trips to go to different arenas. We went to farms, we went to parks and, you know, on campus and she put us everywhere. And then we went to see an photography exhibit downtown at Balboa Park they had a photography exhibit and the whole class had to go there. So, to see the photos you take and then be able to compare them to professional photography. It gives you, you know, something to look for or it allows you to see things you could correct yourself, you know? So, and that's how I kind of see photography, you making your own corrections, you know? And then if you're satisfied, then it's a good photo for you. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Because they can all be looked at so differently. So, that's how hard is. Visintainer: Was it intimidating when you first started out comparing yourself to people in exhibitions? Northington: Not at all, not at all because I'm a person that always went to art museums. I went to plenty of exhibitions prior to this class, you know? Art is my whole world. So, I see everything as art: cars, clothes, shoes, a pencil, you know? I used to play with my mechanical pencils and take them apart, put them back together to see how it was put together, why they chose these colors, why they have the writing on it, you know? And for me, all of that is art because somebody with an artistic mind had to design your mechanical pencil, your eraser, your--your steering wheel on your car. So, it all plays a part. So, I wouldn't consider my stuff in a comparison measure to be less than it's just, this is the way I see it. That's the way they see it. There's two different eyes behind the camera. So, I wouldn't do that, but I'd look at their work and see like, “Okay, there's more clarity here, there's more depth.” There's more layers to their photography versus me taking a picture of a person. And there's just a wall in the background. There's no layers. So, I would be able to get some type of a scope of these are other things that are possible with the photos and then talking about the mood of the person. Can I really see the mood? I got more of that from watching modeling shows, you know? Of how your eyes can give away a smile or your eyes can give away a frown without the facial expression. So, then I have to input that into Transcribed by Julia Friedman 2 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 the photo. And now I'm trying to communicate that with the person in the photo to get the look I'm looking for. So, you know, it's a little bit of elements all over the place to put it all together. Visintainer: Okay. And do you started off with drawing, so I'm assuming that your experience and your learning as you started off with drawing, transferred into photography pretty well as well, but I was curious, were there any specific lessons or techniques that you took from your background in drawing and art that transferred directly into photography? Northington: Yes. The biggest thing I would say is filling up the space. So, before I started taking pictures, I would see a lot of people take pictures on social media and all these other things. I'm not a picture person myself. So, I don't just sit down and take pictures of myself or other people. I didn't-- I never did that, but I would do it mentally. So, you know, and you would see a picture or a background mentally before I even had the camera. So, I'm already doing it in my head. And then, uh, you know, people would, most people do it. They go, “Oh, that's a nice sunset.” Or, “Look at those mountains.” You're taking a visual picture in your head, you know, and this is why they can sell their painting at Marshalls. You go to Marshalls and you pick up the painting of the canvas of the Carlsbad beach area or the pier in Oceanside. You can sell that because it's a nice visual and you just capture that. And then, uh, I think everybody does that to a different degree. So again, picking up the camera, I've already had that exercise in my mind. So, from drawing, I got filling up the picture because I started drawing cartoons. So now I come in class and I'm taking art class. The professor would say, “You have to fill up the background, it's empty,” you know? You make it too one-dimensional or two-dimensional with no layers. You want to make it pop. You want to make it stand out. You want--so you need to add three, four, five, ten dimensions, whatever. Keep adding layers. So, filling up the whole sheet of paper and making an entire scene is what I took over to the photography side from, from drawing. Visintainer: Okay. And that's interesting. And when you mentioned cartoons, especially, so when I think of cartoons, I think of panels. Northington: Yes. Vistintainer: And I think of you know, word balloons and things that do fill up a panel there. Um, but oftentimes there's real kind of blank or not defined backgrounds. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Do you try to do something similar with your portraiture, especially? Or do you utilize the backgrounds, uh, in a way that would be maybe different from how--? Northington: I would say it's both and it all depends on the intent of that photo. So, if the intent of that photo includes the background, then I'll make the black background a little more apparent and then if it doesn't, then you kind of shoot an aperture mode to, you know, to fizzle out the background, you know? And that's like a new app on everybody's phone, everybody's shooting in portrait mode on their, on their iPhone and it'll fuzz out the background, you know? So that's, if that's necessary for what I'm trying to get across then yes. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 3 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Northington: If not, I'll really include the background, you know? Specifically with the photos you've seen with the sunlight actually being included in the background though, it's ninety-three million miles away so they say. Visintainer: Alright. Um, I think we've already covered a little bit about your instruction with tutoring, or tutoring that you had as well as your background in art. So, I kind of wanted to move on and ask you kind of in a reverse question, have you taken on any students or mentees yourself? Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Or in, so what advice did you give them? Northington: The same advice I get. And you know, one of the bigger things that probably the number one piece of advice I got from Nancy diBenedetto is just keep taking pictures. You have to make all the mistakes over and over and over and over and over and over. And then next year and I take ten thousand more pictures. I'm comparing my pictures now to my pictures, you know? And that's an easier fix and it allows you to grow within yourself versus I'm going to compare my pictures to somebody that's already in the magazine shooting for Getty Photos. You don't want to, you know, that's a big jump and you may never get there. And then understanding how much equipment plays a role. You could shoot with a, you know, a Polaroid camera from some convenience store that you got from CVS versus shooting with a $10,000 camera, you know, from Best Buy. That same person is going to produce a different quality of photo just from the equipment alone. So, learning that, you know, uh, learning, setting the background, and implanting the person versus trying to take the person and implant the background, you know? That was a big thing I learned too. So, that's something I teach some people. I have about four or five right now, just picked up a new guy, Shamar. So, I got about four or five students here at school that I kind of help out and assist with all the things that I've been told. And then I try to help them just develop their own way, you know? Don't take pictures like me, take pictures like you, you know? Don't become a copycat. You see what you saw in it. And I'll just try to help with, you know, technical things, things that may stand out to make this possibly not as good of a picture. But I can't help you with what you saw, what you see, what you want to produce. I don't want to touch that because that's for you. Visintainer: Okay. There were a couple things I wanted to come back to. Um, one of them is you mentioned you got to make the same mistakes over and over and over. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some mistakes in photography that you made over and over and over before realizing--? Northington: Lighting. Visintainer: Lighting? Northington: Lighting. Uh, there's so many small things. There may be twenty-five or thirty things you have to do before you take a picture. And if you forget one of them, you'll be mad once you go to editing, you know? You walk outside, the sunlight is in one space in the sky. If you forget that and throw it out of your mind, then you're going to have a bunch of dark shadows on everybody's face. So, unless that was what you was exactly trying to do, then you kind of threw a lot of your pictures off. You want Transcribed by Julia Friedman 4 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 the light on them, you know. Learning the red, the orange and the blue and the white lights, you know, using the application on your actual camera, the white balance, you know, that's something that I didn't even pay attention to. Even though Nancy taught us in class, I spent a lot of months not using my white balance and you'll get a yellowish undertone to people's skin and the colors scheme will be off. And now in editing, you have to go through and try to mute all that yellowish and greenish because you didn't do a proper white balance, you know? So stuff like that, I had to waste a bunch of photos and SD cards because I didn't, you know, take that into account. So where are my light source come from? Having enough light for the individual. Focus--my focus points, you know, the different variations you could, adjust your camera to, you know? Shooting in portrait or shooting in, you know, a fast pace or a slow pace. Understanding that, uh, your camera only captures so much depending on the lens. So, if I have a $700 lens, I could do a little bit more than that standard lens you come with, but I have a $2,000 lens I can do even a little bit more. It allows for even more mistakes because that vibration control works a lot better in the $2,000 lens than it does in that standard lens you get. So, understanding all of those things before I even take the photo. Using a tripod to take photos versus handheld, because nobody can sit still, you have a heartbeat, your body can’t sit still. You have to hold your breath and pause everything. You know, that’s just like, you know? Anybody that does weaponry, you learn the same thing. When you have to shoot a rifle on a range, you have to hold your breath, squeeze in between your breath, because that’s the only still you’re going to get. It’s the same thing. I think that’s what you call it, “shooting with the camera,” cause yeah, it’s some of the same techniques. So, anybody that shoots rifles, it’s kind of the similar techniques. For putting it’s a similar technique. So, shooting free throws, similar technique, you know, those positions, you have to pause that breath. So, all of those things at once before you even take the picture, if you rush through it, you just wasted some time. I had to do it. And then I look back at my photos from the beginning. Because I even have a book that's not out for anybody to see because it's a book of mistakes, you know? And I keep it and I have it in my room and I look at it from time to time. I can't--this is where it started, you know? A lot of blown out pictures because it's too much light, a lot of yellow skin because no white balance, a lot of blurry pictures because my arm is moving too much. And I have to keep it to look at my mistakes to remind myself, to keep all of these things in mind before I shoot the picture. So, you know, that’s, it’s a part of it and it’s--it's needed. Visintainer: Yeah. Do you keep all of your photos that you take? Northington: Yes. So, I have quite a few hard drives so, and the only thing I don't like is they usually last, you know, four or five years and you got to switch them up again. Don't like that, but you know, because you have to keep paying for that over and over and over, but yeah, you should. I would tell people to keep them all because if you get rid of your mistakes, you can't see them. It's hard to improve like that. So, unless you’re always going to have a teacher right ahead of you constantly doing, you know. So it’s hard to self-improve without a constant teacher or a constant reminder of the things you need to work on. So, and I would employ people to do that on their own by always having a teacher because you’re being guided a little too much. Take your own steps. So. Visintainer: I think that's good advice. There was another thing I wanted to come back to and that was, you mentioned importing your subjects into your backgrounds. Northington: Yes. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 5 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Visintainer: And forgive me if I'm not phrasing exactly how you did. And I thought that was really interesting because you do portraiture, you go out, you look for people that I assume that are, that you want to have that are subjects. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: So, I wanted to ask you a little bit about the process of how you choose your subjects. Northington: (laughs) Yeah. Visintainer: And then I guess the follow up, you know, beyond the process of how you choose your subjects, then how do you insert them into the backgrounds? Do you choose your backgrounds and look for a subject or, what do you do? Northington: I don’t even decide, it decides itself. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, just being a student, you have to walk around campus, you take enough classes, you’ll go into every building on campus. So, been here almost four years now. So, I’ve been in every building. As I’m always walking, I’m seeing these scenes, making mental notes. I want a picture right there. I want a picture right there. Mental note--it just built this bridge across the street. I need a picture right there from the bridge. So, you know, and there's a lot of tall buildings here. So, it gives for a lot of angles. A lot of birds-eye-views and worms-eye-views. So, it is a lot, it's enough layers here, even in a compact campus. So, all of those backgrounds are constantly piling up. So now I have all these backgrounds. Now it's about the people. Who do I want to use for the next photo? It's all that random, you know, but I don't want anybody too excited. I prefer a person who is on the edge of saying “No,” but they'll do it anyway. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: That's what I want. I don't want somebody that, “Oh, I take a thousand pictures for social media every day.” No, they usually are too excited, too much to calm down. That's just been what I've seen just from taking pictures for three years. People that are over excited to take photos, it's usually for me. Other people may be different, but for me it's more difficult to get them to the look, the feel and the expression that I need for the photo. And that photo shoot would last two hours. When I could have got the picture in seven minutes with a person that's more calm and mundane and melancholy. We can get the photo in seven minutes and then now I can spend thirty minutes getting a bunch of photos to use for later. So that's more conducive for me. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, and I particularly want people who have never seen. So, the invisible people is what I want. Melancholy, invisible. That's the people I want: the unseen. You know, people walk around every day and pretend like homeless people are not standing on the street with a sign asking for water or food. Yet, they're walking a dog, picking up behind a dog, feeding the dog and walk right past a homeless human being, you know? So, we see this every day in society. So, the unseen get no support, no help, you know? They don't get to smile. They don't get to feel good about themselves, you know? We can change that. So that's a part of the social activism of my work. I want the people who are less Transcribed by Julia Friedman 6 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 recognized, the people who may then have such a good time in middle school or high school, got picked on. Maybe wasn't as tall as everybody else. Not as muscular, not as attractive, not as whatever, you know, "-ism” you want to use. Those people should be recognized, because everybody should be included. So, there’s no popularity contest with my photos. I’ve turned down more people than most. Because people that ask me to take their photos, it's probably ninety-seven percent time, it's a “No.” I say “no” every week. So (laughs). Visintainer: When do you say “yes” when somebody asks you to? Northington: If it's like a social, like, situation as I'm graduating? Okay. That's a necessary-- to capture this moment. You know, [if] I'm having a birthday party, you know, something like that. People celebrate different, you know, different holidays and stuff like that. So, those are understood situations. But when it's like, “Oh, can you take pictures of me? Can you take?”-- because it's a lot of that. You know, people are doing that with phones every day. But when they find out somebody has a camera and oh, you take pictures a little, you know, on a little higher level than a camera phone. “Oh, can you get these pictures of me for this or for this?” you know, I get some of the same people over and over and over. Even after I’ve taken pictures for them, they’ll keep coming back for more and more and more. No, no, no. That’s enough. You have a phone on your camera. That’s enough. You know, because I believe you’ve already accomplished what we needed to with the photos. You feel good about yourself, you know? And you’re walking around elevated. Good. We made it happen. That's so that's enough for me. So, I don't need to entertain that anymore. So, we trying to pick up the people who feel a little, you know, more lowly about themselves. Pick those people up. Visintainer: So, one of the things that I think separates beyond skill level, obviously that separates art and photography from say more commercial enterprises, like, you know, capturing a wedding or something like that is a philosophy or a thought process-Northington: (both talking at once) Yes. Visintainer: (both talking at once) --behind the production of the art. And you've talked a little bit about, um, about how you want to make sure that the people that are unseen are seen. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: But I was curious if there's other philosophies that you take into the production of your art as well? Northington: Yes. My photography is particularly for Black people. So, it does two things. It’s force feeds Black images, Black positive images into everybody’s purview. I’m going to force feed it. There’s something—this comes back to just being a kid and I will walk in Walmart with everybody else that goes to Walmart since they’re billions and billions of dollars every year. You walk in Walmart and, and maybe you just need a picture frame because you and your family just had a family reunion or your grandmother’s birthday was celebrated, and you go pick up this picture frame and the family in the picture frame stock photo never looks like me. Ever. So, that's the standard. And then, you know, you play soccer, or me? I played tennis growing up and we win a little trophy and the figurine on top of the trophy is never me. It's never my people. And then let's say you fall in love with somebody, you get married and you go to the place to order your wedding cake. And you have to specially order the Black Transcribed by Julia Friedman 7 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 figurines and you wait a few weeks for it to come in the mail because everything in the store that's standard is not me. It's not my people. So, you can go across all media, all aspects of society. And the standard is one group. Everybody else becomes, you know? Well, they get to choose if they include you or not. So, what's happened for many commercials, many movies? We have this idea of the token, we'll insert one, you know, non-white person that could be anybody, you know? They may insert one Asian, one Latino, or one Black person, Disney movies do it all the time. Disney TV shows do it all the time. If you've ever seen South Park, they have a character called Token and he has a big “T” on his t-shirt and it's a Black kid that lives in South Park, Colorado amongst all of the other white kids. You know? This is a real thing in life and in a place particularly like San Marcos, this is not a Black city. It's not a Black area, you know? So, we have a lot of Black students here who were the one in their entire group of friends and, you know, sports, anything, they were involved in. So they're not the standard. So going back to Walmart, let me go get, you know, some stuff, some products for my hair. And there's an aisle called an “ethnic hair aisle” in Walmart. One aisle, two or three shells with hair products that's supposed to be for me. And then there's one, two, three, four, five whole aisles for the “standard” people. So, you know, the photography or the standard of people can be influenced by these things. So, you can learn to understand that you're not included by growing up like that. And those are just a few aspects, you know? Cartoons, whatever--toys, everything. A lot of little Black girls were getting little baby doll toys or Barbies or whatever. And it doesn't look like them. So, these things can help pull away at yourself, how you feel about yourself, how you view your skin, your hair, you know, your people in America. It could pull away and produce these negative aspects. And then you see yourself in film and you're always a drug dealer, a crack head, a prostitute, on welfare. Forever. So much so that a movie like the Marvel Black Panther movie makes a billion dollars and it automatically changes so many people's view. And it automatically brings up the feeling of a group of Black people. Or, 2008, when Barack Obama comes into office, you see the spiritual uplift of a bunch of Black people because of representation. And then he has so many books out between him and his wife. They produce different books. There's so much photography of them. There's so many art pieces that were made because they came into the office, you know? There's a there's a professional painter that did a huge piece on Michelle Obama. That's famous all throughout social media, just for the representation. So, propaganda can be positive or negative. So, I'll take my photography to create some more, just add to the positive end. So, I feel like anybody can do that. If you have a camera phone in your hand, everybody can do that. So, I just choose to be on the more positive end because all of my life has only been negative for my people through film, photography, or otherwise, you know? Just pull up any school website and look at the photos they use for the school website. I almost never see my people in any realm, any aspect. Just Google any business, you know? There became a trend that you would only see Black people in McDonald's commercials and Cadillac commercials. And that's been the trend for like thirty years. And then, you know, Black History Month comes up and then you'll see somebody get inputted somewhere else, you know? Or like, the NBA is like eighty, eighty-five percent Black, but then during Black History Month, they have NBA Black history t-shirts that everybody in the NBA has to wear. So, you'll get that one time and then everything else is standard, you know, stuff like that. So, that's the way I look at it. I see it that way. I go, “Okay, how can we improve this?” I can put out more positive Black images. So, I will. So, I go look for people who may be down on themself, who may be just, “I'm just going to hide in the shadows,” or, “I'm unseen,” you know? That's the people I would prefer if I--if they're willing to be a part of it. And then just, you know, gradually go up and up and up. And then when we get too far to somebody’s just over-“Okay, it's enough.” So, I'm just trying to get that aspect. That's not really, picked out and use and you Transcribed by Julia Friedman 8 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 know, uh, it could be commercial art. It could be just, you know? Fine art, any way you want to take it, but these things are going to last forever. So that's kind of the thought process behind the book. The photo books. They last forever. You can look back at this when you have kids and the grandkids and this event happened, you know? It happened. You have these yearbooks in high school. People always look back at the yearbooks, you know? A lot of grandmothers used to have this big photo album on a coffee table and you come to your grandmother's house and look at all these photos, you know? So, since those were a part of my life, this was a part of the process. Like, okay, I could put all that together and let's just tell a story with this book. And then, I use the book and find a social issue that affects Black people. So, and let's try to correct that social issue through photography, using the Black students here and then give them these photos. And I gave many of them the books that are in the books. Now they get to say they've been a part of this. They get to know. Their family gets to know. So, these pictures get to now reverberate through the Black community. Much like if you saw, you know, Michelle and Barack Obama walk across the stage 2008. So, it gives some type of spiritual upliftment. You feel proud of yourself and who you are, versus comparing yourself to the stock photo in the picture frame at Walmart. Visintainer: Yeah. So, you talked a little bit about representation right now, and then we've talked in the past about representation. And this is not necessarily a photography-related question, but I was curious, as a person of color, when you're out in the world and you don't see representation all around you, what are the kind of the kind of self-care approaches that you take to remain positive in an environment where there's an absence? Northington: Well, just the phrase you just use that I don’t use myself. “Person of color” is not in identifiable nomenclature for me or how I use for my people. You have notion such as “African American.” That’s not--that’s not for me to use. That’s for other people. That’s only been around nineteen years. U.S. census in a year 2000 added “African American” as an identifying, you know, political term to be used. That didn’t exist before then. So, I did a project in the library about that, you know, that we did here. And I showed how the nomenclature of Black people have changed since 1790 census to today. So, there’s been, you know, quite a few terms and phrases. So, the phrase that is currently used now is “people of color.” I don’t use that because you kind of amalgamate everybody into a group and that can be good in certain aspects. But for me, that adds more negative-Visintainer: Okay. Northington: --For Black people, because we get away from talking about Black issues, and Black people by calling all issues of non-whites people of color issues. So, and a lot of these things need to be particular because people of color don't get kicked out of high school for their hair. People of color are not being murdered at this such high rate by the police on TV. So that's why I can't use a term like that or a phrase like that. But I do understand why people use it and then it gets, you know, it gets, you used a lot, but I--I can't use those terms because what affects Black people particularly is not a people of color issue, you know? People of color in hair that's, you know, it's such a different thing. So-Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: --You know, just try to keep it a little more positive. And, uh, so, going back to your question. I would say, the women's book in particular, the main issue was like, I just brought up, the hair. So, there's black kids getting kicked out of school by the thousands every single year, just for having Transcribed by Julia Friedman 9 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 their natural hair, because my hair grows as my hair is supposed to. Your hair grows as it's supposed to. How can this now be a factor in who can be in school and who can't? And who's unkept and who's not, you know? So, we have Supreme Court rulings on this. Many states have their own state's law and federal law doesn't include, you know, the Constitution has nothing about hair in it, you know? Because that was the standard of one group of people. So, hair wasn't an issue. So, we have a lot of state Supreme Court ruling and that led me to the focus of the first book I did on natural hair. So, in 2016, they had an Eleven Circuit Court Supreme Court ruling said employers could in fact discriminate against natural hairstyles. If they see it to be unfit, unkept, unprofessional. So, to even be allowed to do that legally, that’s not a people of color issue, you know, that’s Black-specific. So, I had to dive into that with the book. So, I went around campus and uh, just would just keep my eyes open for any Black people who just walked around freely with natural hairstyles, their natural hair all the way out, you know? Who may not believe in that “I'm going to be clean cut because society told me to,” you know, my hair has to be cut off. Yet, I sit in class and see all these other races of people who get to enjoy their hair being as long as they choose to. And they're not assumed to be violent or third or unkept, you know? So, you could walk around with a ponytail and it wouldn't be seen as anything other than hip. But I let my hair grow, and now society makes a direct connection from me and my natural hair to 1966 Black Panther Party. Just my natural hair alone, I get directly, “Oh, you like a Black Panther?” Why would they do that? You know why? Because the photography that existed in 1966, taking pictures of Black people in Black social movements, they all look like this with their natural hair, the men and the women have the same natural hair. So now, America, hasn't seen that since the sixties, thousands upon thousands. So, you had about twenty-five to twenty-eight million Black people at that point. And for a lot of them to just be walking around naturally, completely, like this, that's a different thing. Because it's like, this group is very different than this group. And it's almost like a highlighter, a notify, you know? And at this point, as you go to the “people of color” term, the term that was used at this point was “Afro-American.” It’s in literature. It’s all over the place at this time. It’s in movies, everywhere. Interviews everything. Because it notified the hair. Afro-American. Well, that since passed and a lot of people went into different hairstyles and different things have changed. So much so that when now I exist, the only correlation is 1966 through the sixties and early seventies is Black Panther Party. So, I get that every day. Can I help change that? Yes. With the book, with the pictures. Particularly discussing hair and how my hair has to always be political. My hair has to always have a law. My hair has to always fit into the scheme of the society as they make the rules. So, we had to fully discuss this hair regulation policy, because it doesn't just exist with that one employer for that one Supreme Court rule in an Eleven Circuit Court. This happens at every, it happens here. It happens when I go to job interviews, you know, I've been asked to cut my hair before and I just didn't work at that place, you know? It's a little different for me. What if I wanted to get a job that requires hats like an officer or, you know, a firefighter, baseball player. The hats are not made for me and my hair. That hats are made for the “standard” American. You know, if your hair lays down in a particular pattern, then a hat doesn't change anything as far as your hair. Well, if I were a size seven hat with my hair low, that changes with my hair longer. It may not change as much as you because your hair would press down and it wouldn't be, you know, wouldn't be messed up. Anything like that. Well, it's different for me or if I'm the only sector of society, that's going to have such a significant difference in that manner. The rules didn't change for me and for Black people. So, just trying to help point out some of these things, you know, with the books and with the photography. So, that’s why I said it can work in both ways. You’re uplifting Black people and then you’re throwing it in the face of everybody else. “Hey, this is who we are. This is what we look like. I'm born this way,” you Transcribed by Julia Friedman 10 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 know? So, this is supposed to be the era of “inclusion.” That's one of the newest words being used in the last two or three summers. “Inclusivity.” “Equity.” And all of these things. Those sound good. And you know, people may have the best intent. But how inclusive are you? If you're asking me to cut my hair, how inclusive are you? If you accept Black people, when their hair is straight, you know, processed. You accept that version. But that same Black woman, if she comes with a hair natural, it's a problem. So much is a problem that many Black women get unrecognized when they come to work one week with their hair pressed and they come to work two or three months later with their hair like mine. “Oh, I thought we had a new coworker. I didn't recognize you.” You know, this happens every day. If I cut my hair right now, I guarantee you, I come to school next semester. Some people will—"Oh, I didn't realize that was you.” Because my face changed (laughs) due to my hair. You know, so, uh, being that our hair has seen is so negative and the negativity comes from the connection to the Black Power Movement throughout the sixties and seventies. So, one of the things, one of the greatest things is our bodies need to be seen as human and as positive. So, the photography about the hair includes that as well, you know? See us happy, we're on campus, we're students, you know, we're coworkers. You need to get used to seeing us in our natural form, how we are. So, the people who may hate or have a disdain for those images, that's a part of them seeing this as well. So, this is what it would do to people who are not Black and then uplift the people who are Black. So, we can kind of, you know, create some social change. So, you could be a little more uncomfortable with seeing a person that looks like me, because you’ve seen it. So, if I'm in a commercial, if I'm in that standard photo at Walmart, if I'm on the school website, you know. If my sister's here, my mother's on this. And we see Black people in films that are also teachers, that also work in the library, that also police officers. So, it becomes accepted. And now I don't have such a, you know, a shocking response. When I see a person like me. There's so many people are shocked by me walking around school. I'm in elevators, going up steps with people. And I keep getting that. The startled response from so many students just because of my hair, that's it. So, we can help change some of these things. Visintainer: Um, to come back a little bit to people that are unseen. So, if you're looking for people that are on the verge of not being interested in being photographed and you're looking for people that are generally unseen. How do you go about convincing people to be seen? Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: If they're used to not being seen (Northington laughs), and maybe comfortable not being seen. Or maybe they're uncomfortable with it, but that's kind of what they expect? Northington: So, I mean, that becomes the work. So, it can't be easy. You know, if you want to do something easy, then I'll just take pictures of people who want to, you know? And then for me, that's not the right energy to go about it or to make the change. They want to be seen. Okay. Yeah. You know, then they're already showing themselves. So, it's not, to me, that's not a fix. So, now when dealing with a person that may be more reluctant to do that. It's not that I want to convince them. It's that I sit down and have the conversation. Let's think about ten years from now. If you make this decision, how will this affect you for ten years and ten years looking back, you know? Would you have been proud of this? You know, then I tell them my purpose for doing it, you know? Similar to some of these responses. Look at commercials, look at magazines. What do you involve yourself in on a daily basis? If you’re watching your social media, what do the ads look like? What are your favorite films? What’s your favorite music? So, look at the—already imagery of yourself. If you had the opportunity to make it positive, because, you Transcribed by Julia Friedman 11 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 know, there’s so much talk about these people do this to us. This group oppresses us this way. Those are true. So, what if I’m giving one small opportunity to go against that. To improve it? If my son, my daughter, my granddaughter, my great-granddaughter was able to see this great imagery of, you know, their great-grandfather or something. It uplifts them as a child. So, I can start that off from the beginning. And you are already fighting against some of the negativities against you from the beginning. So, what happens today? A lot of Black people are looking back to pictures of the Harlem Renaissance. Looking back at those, you know, Gordon Parks photos. This the, uh, what is this? Another woman, uh, [Carrie] Mae Weems, she--her photos as well. So, you have something to look back to something, to aspire to. All these images of Barack Obama, Michelle Obama. All these images of Jay-Z and Beyonce, all these, you know, you have these images to look forward to, to uplift you. You may even make some type of connection, and you can see a little bit of yourself in it, because it represents you a lot more than looking at the, uh, the Statue of Liberty or the Mount Rushmore, you know? Those are like things that are unattached to your culture or to your soul in a way, if you would see own people, you know, we have the Caesar Chavez statue on campus. Everybody probably generally understands that that's okay, it's a mark on the campus. What Caesar Chavez stands for, you know, the rights of migrant workers and all of those things. But then I would say there's another aspect of people who look at that in a different way than even I do. But in other peoples they see more self-representation, more our people work for something. And then there's a different connection. So, we can do that with statues. With imagery. So, I explain this to some of these people and then they make a decision off of that. Then some of them go, “Okay, you know what? I do want to do this.” And then they may have already told themselves they want to be seen, but they don't get the opportunity. They want to be included, but they don't get the opportunity, and they don't have the persona or the, you know, or the personality to kind of say, “Hey, you know, I like to take pictures and do this.” So, I get to now become the conduit for that. And then some of the people go, “No, that's not my arena.” And then I have to take that. But I'd rather deal with it in that way than the person screaming. “Take pictures of me, take pictures of me.” So that's kind of how it goes. Visintainer: Thank you. Have you seen your kind of personal philosophy in relation to your art evolve over time? Northington: Yes. Yes. Uh, but the first idea of doing it from the hair perspective opened up so many other lanes, because then it goes, this is happening against Black people in society. So, let me walk down that and see how I can place that in images to where people can see the image and I don't have to put words on the paper, you know? Tell the story without putting the words on the paper. And then it opens up another lane, another lane. So, I would say the involvement, the evolving of it comes from the first stance of looking at the hair situation. The involvement came from that, and then it's just, this is happening, this is happening. Also, I'm in sociology classes, you know, I'm in a Black feminist thought class. Talk about Dr. Walkington. And I'm in a Black communities class. Talk about Dr. Muhammad. So, we're talking about the aspects of Black immigration, the aspects of over sexual sexualizing Black women, you know? Things like this, more avenues. Now I can use that in the photography and help try to curve some of those negativities. So, it just continues to just go out and go out and go out. And more ideas are just constantly popping up. So, that would add to the evolving measure. And then these are open doors for me to take photography of so many other people, you know? So once the photos get posted online or other people post the photo, I took it in and tagged. Then now I'll get a message saying, “Hey, can you take pictures of me at my birthdays coming up? I have my 22nd birthday. Me and my Transcribed by Julia Friedman 12 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 friends, can you come take--” then that'll happen. And then from that, I had two different companies go, “Oh, hey, we have an event, uh, company that we constantly do events, ten or twenty a year. Are you available to take events for our-- take photos for our events?” So, I have one company I've been taking event photos for three years and another one for a year. And then, so it just keeps going and going and going. And then that adds for a lot of practice. Because I'm getting different lighting situations, indoor, outdoor, overhangs, you know, candlelit lights, you know? So everything's a little different. So, it allows for a lot of practice to do the actual photography that I'm passionate in. So, that's kind of some of the involvement. Visintainer: Okay. So, you've got a commercial aspect to what you're doing then. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: And you talk a little bit about how you utilize that to grow your personal art. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some of the things that don't translate when you're doing commercial photography to your artistic side? Northington: Um, we're not really attacking any particular social issue when we're doing commercial art, so it's more, “Let’s enjoy life.” The commercial art becomes more about enjoying life. Like, okay, it's the time to fight against, you know, injustices, it's the time to sit down and do your work and it's the time to enjoy life. So, and the commercial art tends to just, you know, live in that arena. Let's enjoy life, let's have fun. But that also still becomes a correction because it used to be illegal for Black people to get together and hang out, you know? You have the slave codes of Virginia, 1684, they have slave codes and you can’t congregate, you know? South Carolina has some of the same slave codes and many of these things were supposed to be overturned and go out the window after the Civil War. Well, you know, those people still had jobs. So, whether the law changed or not, they still had jobs. So, they still kind of continue some of these practices. And this is where we see like a stop-and-frisk comes into play to where New York City police are growing up, stopping-and frisking can five or six Black dudes standing together. So, we can't even be together, you know? There used to be a time where you could buy a house and have a party. Well, since I've been in California, those things seem to be illegal. You can't even have a party at your apartment. Can't have a party at your house. You can't even congregate and have fun. So now people are forced to go rent out, you know, spaces and hotels and ballrooms. You got to rent out of space, pay a few thousand dollars to get people, to show up and party and have fun and then still pay for parking and all these things. It wasn't like this in the nineties. In the nineties, you lived in a place that you pay rent. You can have a party. Well, those things are like illegal now. People just call the cops. You go, no partying allowed. You know, this is even on some paperwork when you go get an apartment: no parties. Some paperwork, for Homeowners Association of that house: no parties. So, I’m an adult, I’m a human, I can't party. Because I choose to. I have to go to a club. I have to rent out a ballroom, you know? So, for Black people in particular, we need to be able to enjoy life as well with all of these stressors, you need to be able to enjoy life. So, even though this is commercial art, for some of these companies, these people are having fun and are having fun together, which is something that's not promoted. They'll show us fighting together, but not so much of us having fun together. So, there's no balance of that. So, in that aspect of thinking, I get to help provide some balance to showing Black people, enjoying each other, having fun. And then go back home to their kids, their wives, their Transcribed by Julia Friedman 13 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 husbands, and their jobs and school and all of that. But they come together and congregate to have fun and we never get to see it. So. Visintainer: When it comes to your subjects for your photography, um, are there anything that you look for in particular? You've mentioned that you look for people that are--I guess maybe, you've already answered this. That you look for people that are unseen. You look for people that are reticent, to be photographed. But are there anything else that you look for in your subjects? Northington: Yes. I also look for Black community organizations or Black on-campus organizations. So, I've taken pictures for the Black faculty and staff, you know, because they have to have it. You should have photos out there. The Black Student Union, the Black Student Center, you know? There's a Black fraternity here, Omega Psi Phi. Black sorority here, Sigma Gamma Rho. And I've taken pictures for all of them because they should have the photos out there, you know? If we're not seen on campus and people pretend like we're not here. So, we're supposedly like 2.1, 2.2 percent of this campus. And you know, and that seems to be the trend all throughout the CSU, you know? There's maybe two: Dominguez Hills and Cal State Long Beach in L.A. They're in a particular area where there's a high concentration of Black people right there in L.A. So, they have a little higher of a number. The rest of the CSU is right around two percent, three percent. So, with that, we're not so much in a propaganda photography in videos at those campuses. Knowing that coming in, I want to particularly take pictures of these Black groups. So, I'll offer my services to all of these Black groups and take pictures of any events that they're doing, any tabling that they're doing and stuff like. So, I have done that here and that's a part of the focus, too. So, to make sure they're supported in that way and, you know, and they can continue on because other than that--because you do an event here and the process is you go to office communication or go to a newspaper you can request photographers to come. And then sometimes they come and they stay for two minutes, take one or two pictures and they leave. And then for me that's not enough, you know? They did their job, they did what they were supposed to do. They got the one or two pictures they're supposed to get and they left. So, they did what they're supposed to do. But for me, that's not enough. For us, it's not enough. Because we're not being represented properly. So, we need to change that. So, when they do their events and sometimes, you know, these different Black organizations ask me to come do the photography, I'll go do it. No charge, just do the event, edit the photos, put them out there. Even make some little slideshows of them and stuff like this. So, and that's led to me doing the old people's luncheon, some Halloween parties, and stuff like that on campus for even other organizations that are not Black particular. But this stuff now lasts forever. , it's amazing. This is 2019, but if somebody's not here, particularly taking pictures of Black people, none of this happened. Everybody's living off memories, you know? That's stuff that was done for people that graduated in [19]79 or [19]82 as a Black group of people. They're talking about the memories of what we went through in four or five years of college. How is that still a thing? Because if nobody's pointing them out and going, “We need to capture this on video on film,” that this happened, they did this, they did this, they did this, you know? The biggest thing here was when we got the Black students in the spring of 2017, and then you have three students who really made the biggest push. So, the ASI [Associated Students Incorporated (student government)] President at that time was Tiffany Boyd. Then you have Jamaéla Johnson and then you have Akilah Green. All three of them were ASI and they made a huge push for us to get the Black Student Center as we needed. And this was a time that all of these Black people were being shot on TV. And, so, this was a very important need for Black students on campus. So, with those three people, we had to make sure they got recognized. So, I took pictures of them. They Transcribed by Julia Friedman 14 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 came for the grand opening. I hope one day that their names and pictures are on the wall in the Center to get their proper due. If that didn't happen, and there's no pictures, it all goes away and there's a history forgotten. So, the photos become documentary automatically. Any photos of Black people almost automatically become a documentary and historical reference points. So that’s another point of keeping all of my photos. When you ask if I keep them. I just get to look back, you know? Even now I’ll look back three years ago when this person was a freshman or whatever. And, you know, it’s like, “Hey, remember this picture, remember this BSU [Black Student Union] meeting, or remember this event,” you know? So. Visintainer: When you're taking your photographs, what guidance do you give your subjects? Northington: To be calm, to try to, like, take away the stress that they have, you know? Because it's almost exercise when you asked about some exercising, some positive things to kind of--because this, this also helps me, you know? This has becomes a tool of, uh, I mean, some people will call it a yoga, mental yoga, or a relaxation technique. Because just being able to take a picture of Black people and it makes them feel good. It makes me feel good. So, you know, you get to keep pushing that positive energy back into Black people. Because they need it just as much as anybody. So, if nobody's going to be particular to help pull up Black people, I'm not going to sit around and fuss about it. What aspect can I add to it? So, I'll continue to do that. So, it can help them as well, you know? Especially those people who are more quiet and shy and then they go, “Oh, this person wanted to put me in their book or wanted to put me in their video,” and that can help change them and, and it help them grow and help them feel good about themselves so I could help them. They could help me. So that's the way I take it. Visintainer: Can you tell me about a particularly satisfying moment in your photography? (Northington laughs) Something that really, really made you, you know--I think you get a lot of joy out of it in general. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: But something that really made you go “Well, I'm so happy to be doing what I'm doing?” Northington: Uh, well, a lot of these photos in the books, especially the Black women's book, I printed out maybe seventy, eighty of these photos on a large canvas of like twenty-four by thirty-six. And I did a thing last year where I printed all these out on steel frames and some of them were on canvas and I gave these out to people or gave them to their mothers and to their grandmothers. And that was probably the most satisfying thing because you don't normally see people from a socioeconomic deprivation to be, to make a jump, to have something that may be considered expensive artwork of their own in their house. So, imagine walking in your house and having your own huge portrait on metal, on steel, on the wall, and every time your family comes over, “Look, this is my daughter in college. Look, this is my son in college.” And they had the picture taken by somebody on campus. When you would normally have to have enough income enough, you know, throw away money, to go pay for this. And it cost you three or 400 bucks. So, because it cost about 200 bucks for the photo. And then now for the photo photographer services, you might spend 500 dollars for something like that. Just for that joy. Well, I just give it to them and then they got that joy anyway. And they were sitting around talking about it. This one girl had her mother, her father, and her grandparents and her brothers and sisters at this event done by the Black SistaHood. It's another Black organization on campus. And we did a natural hair event last year to Transcribed by Julia Friedman 15 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 particularly talk about our natural hair and how we treated and things we can do to improve, you know. So, and that was a part of it. So, I printed out these huge photos. So, when people walked in, they had a line of all these huge photos of Black men and women in their natural hair, smiling, loving it. And I handed out a lot of these photos at that event and these people with their family and they just loving, they posting it online and everything like. So that right there would probably be the peak, that right there. Visintainer: That's cool. What's the most difficult part of the process of photography or creating art for you? Northington: Uh, impatient people (laughs). Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Yeah, or people that you're trying to communicate with a person to do what you see in your head. That's always difficult, you know? It's almost like telling somebody to draw something out of your head. That's the way I look at it. It's almost that difficult sometimes because you know, people want to sit and stand like, “Okay, roll your shoulders back.” And then they do the same thing. Okay. “Chin down,” Because this is how people take pictures. “Okay, we're going to take your picture.” Okay. “Stand there.” And then people do this, uh, you have to put your chin down, then they do this. Okay. (Visintainer laughs) You know? And then I'm like, “Alright, one millimeter, two millimeters to the left, to the right.” You know, all right. “Don't look at the camera,” and then I'll take the picture. Or when I get ready to take the picture. Okay, “One, two, three,” and then they pop the same pose. Okay. Well, no, we already posed you. Sit still, “All right, let's go.” You know, and people have a--he did it. Shamar did it. He, you know, keep ticking his head to the left when it’s ready. All one, two, three. And then, you know, and I came to find out, a lot of people have a tick like that. Because people get used to taking photos. So, they have like a go-to pose. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So that go-to pose becomes a difficult thing a lot of times. So, that, and I never like it when, if people are not satisfied with the photo. So, there’s some photos that I put in the books that I really love and other people love them, you know, from the studios and everything. But then that person in the photo didn’t particularly like that one. So, we’ll take thirty or forty and I’ll ask them to choose. And then I’ll tell them the one I like. “You pick two or three and I’ll tell you one I like.” Hopefully they’re the same, but in some cases it’s not the same. And then they’re not as satisfied as I am. So, I don’t like that part either. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: But, it's a part of the process. So. Visintainer: Um, so you published two books of photography. The first book was inspired by the question of hair. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: The representation of hair. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 16 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Uh, what was the second book’s (unintelligible)? Northington: The second book is of Black men. So, the negative characterizing of Black men has always been thugs and criminals. Well, we have all these Black men here on this campus going to school that are not student athletes. They're students, you know? So, they need to be recognized as being students. So, there's plenty of Black men that have graduated from college. That's not what you see on TV. You don't see a college graduate Black man on TV, in a commercial that we know that's what it is. The representation is always a sport, you know? (laughs) Music, you know? It's pretty, after that, it gets thin, you know? So, uh, you can be a comedian, it's entertainment, and it's entertainment-based mostly, you know? And if that's the eighty percent, the ninety percent, maybe even a hundred percent of what you're going to encompass, it's hard to see them as anything else. So, this determines a lot of how we treat people. If I only see Black men represented that way, but then I go home, nobody's --and my home's Black. I'm not Black. I live in a community that's not Black. And my only visual of Black men is all this negative stuff. That's going to play on my comfortability or how I treat them. So now I come to Cal State San Marcos, I get in the elevator and I see a dude like this. I may be a little disheveled. So, if we can change some of those things, because we can, and put out the positive imagery of Black men, then these things can start to, you know, disappear. So, with that in mind, when I did the book for the Black man, again, I want people with all different hairstyles or all different natural hairstyles. But I told them not to smile because I need you to be able to be accepted for having a straight, comfortable face. Northington: I'm just sitting in a class like this, or I'm just in my Uber, or I'm just, you know, at the ATM machine. You shouldn't have to smile, dance, and entertain to be accepted. And those are aspects of vaudeville, ragtime, USA, you know? You can be accepted by this society, entertaining people as a Black man, but can you be accepted when you don't entertain? When you just live life? And that's why we have these, social things that are happening such as barbecuing while Black, driving while Black, shopping while Black. These things occur so much because of how other people view Black men, Black women, Black children. And then you're already castigated and put into the box of criminal or not American, but other American. So, you viewed a certain way. Therefore, you're treated a certain way. And then this causes stress on both ends. So now the stress is building up on us and then the stress is building up on anybody on the other side. And then now it clashes when you get to a campus, when you get to a work environment and you have this wall up on both sides. Well, that doesn't make well for society. And it doesn’t do well for people’s mental health and spiritual health, especially the people on the end receiving all the negativity. So, we can help change some of these things. So, if I'm not the one causing the racism on myself, I'm not the one that needs to make the correction. So, the people viewing this and see these Black men, not smiling, being themselves, looking like me, looking like him, looking like all different aspects of Black men. And you get to view this in a book. They're all students, they're all at this university. They all go unseen. So, let’s put this out here. So now when you see this, it forms now, “Okay, this is a little different than the rapper I saw on TV. This is a little different than the guys I see being chased by the cops.” So, I have to give you another element. So, it allows for some change, but people still have to make that choice themselves. So, that's the point for that one. Visintainer: And then you have a third book you're working on? Transcribed by Julia Friedman 17 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Northington: Yes. And then the third book of this series, this is a series of books. The third book is called, “WE ARE,” and it's going to show the Black men and Black women together on campus doing regular life, you know? Studying, having fun, telling jokes, you know? Walking to their cars, walking to class, you know? Hanging out in the library, all different things, eating together, congregating, just enjoying each other's company. Because again, that's something we don't see propagated by the country, you know? There's a select few, you'll get, you know? If there's a people of color seminar, you know? There's an African American scholarship, then you'll see the commercial art for that be Black people smiling. So, it's not, it doesn't change the standard. That's a particular thing for a particular group of people. And it, you know, it's almost commodified in that way. I want to include us in the standard. So, including us in the standard becomes the change. So, I would look at it in that, in that realm. Visintainer: Do you have a, um, do you have a project after your next project? Are (unintelligible)? Northington: Yes. So as soon as I made the second book, I automatically thought I could just do a bunch of series. So, with this third book completing this series-- also, I did mention before, I think, I maybe told you on the side--all three books, I envisioned them already before I did them. So, I said, “I'm going to make another element to this.” So, the books have the photography and I have a passage in the front of the book that explains the purpose of the book. And then every book has its own title, which I explained on the first page. Then the final page of every book has the thank yous of everybody that we included that gave you the energy to the book. And the thank yous are translated into a different African language. So, with each book, you're going to learn a little bit of a different African language. Now, all three titles of the book in a series complete one sentence. So, the first book is called, “Solar Amalgamations.” The second book is called, “HUEMAN.” And the third book is called, “WE ARE.” And the whole sentence is rearranged: “We are solar amalgamations.” Well, “We are hueman [human] solar amalgamations.” And that generally means, “We are stars,” you know? We're carbon-based human beings. So, this is the carbon-based world. So, and then the human part, I spell “H-U-E-M-A-N” you know? Denoting the shade or the “hue.” Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, “We are human solar amalgamations.” And that completes that trio. After that, there's another book series I'm doing on older Black people that work on campus and things like this. So, I'm particularly looking for fifty [years old] and up, you know? So, and then another series is going to be on Black families and it's going to go on and on and on and on and keep going with that. So, this sparked just a different--and I can, I think I'm going to do this by just (unintelligible), and I'll be able to keep adding more series. So, and that's what that's going to do. So, and then this third book should be out. I want it to be done now, but people’s schedules, it's always tough. The more people that are in the photos, it gets tougher. So, it was a little easier to do the first two books because it was individuals. And then I could put it together in a week or something after I got all the photos, I spent one week putting the whole book together. But we groups. So, these photos are going to be done in groups. It's going be at least two people in every photo. And I’m trying to get some photos of six and seven and twelve people, you know? To add to that, the aspect of us together, “WE ARE,” that's the title. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 18 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Northington: So, it should show us together. So, it may take a little longer than I thought and it may not come out into the spring. So. Visintaier: That’s a lot of scheduling direct. Northington: Yeah, yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: And I have to be the most free because I have to work with everybody else's schedule. So Visintainer: I think that's all of the questions that I had. Northington: Okay. Visintainer: Was there anything that I should have asked you about that I didn't? Northington: The recent recognition that's happening that never happened. I've been here going on my fourth year, as I said. And when I spoke about people being invisible, that includes me as well. So, I had to sit back and watch my fellow students that are in class with me, get their work recognized every year, every semester, over and over, you know? People that ask for my help or people that I ask for help. We're all in the same class. And you know, there's a nursing program, they all go to the same classes. There’s sociology, they all-- same thing with art. We're all in the same classes, especially in my student discipline, art and technology, we're all in the same classes. So, to see some of those students get their work put out or get recognized or see their work, you know, in different areas on campus or whatever I say, “Okay, this is how this works.” So, it doesn't stop. It doesn't turn off. So now, you know, you just come here and then you see the work in the, in the art-- it all just linked up. The students in the art department that put on the exhibit, the art juncture, you know, they reached out because a few of my art professors let them know. So, all of those pieces kind of came together at once. So, you know, I did old people's luncheon, I did photography for them, did their programs and all these other things. This all happened in one month. That part, the school newspaper reached out to me and did an interview and they put it in a newspaper and they posted my photos. Another group of people for Art Equals Opportunity that they work in a--in the San Diego area using art to help students, you know, learn the lessons of English, you know, history, science, and everything. But using the conduit of art, they posted me on their website. All of this happened in the same month. And then you walk in, you know? And your coworker sees the work and then we meet to do this. And all, all of this just happened at once. That's just that. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Then the last, last week I submitted some of these photos to, ah, Lycoming College. It’s in, uh, Pennsylvania. It’s in Williamsport, Pennsylvania. And there was this huge national search for all Black art for their exhibit called “Blurred Expectations.” That’s open now. It just opened today. Everybody across the country submitted. Somebody that knew me said, “Hey, you should submit your stuff to this.” I submitted it. Boom, immediately. They was like, “Yes, it’s in.” So, once this exhibit ended here, the very next day, I had to take it down and ship it. Visintaier: Yeah. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 19 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 Northington: Uh, to Williamsport, Pennsylvania. And it’s up right now in their exhibit. And then ASI, the ASI student government here, just accepted one of my pieces for that art project. So, within two months, this semester, all of the work I've been doing for years, you know? Some of this book is 2017. This book is 2018., you know? And I'm currently doing--so these things are year, two years old, after I watch all of my, you know, fellow students be recognized. All of mine is coming right here in two months. So that's, you know, that's been a big change. So. Visintainer: Yeah. Well, congratulations. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: How long is the exhibition in Virginia up for? Northington: Until the beginning of February. So, they got a couple of months. Yeah. I think it’s right at two and a half months. Something like that. Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: No, the end of November. All of December. All of January. Yeah. So, it's right at like two and a half months. Think they got like eight week-Visintainer: (both talking at once) Is there going to— Northington: (both talking at once) --be six week, ten weeks, something like that. Visintainer: Is there going to be a digital component to it? Northington: Well, they've been posting videos and uh, you know, tagging all of the artists in it and everything like that. And they made--they made a social media page, they made an Instagram page. So that's how everybody's keeping up who's not in their area at that school. And it's like a huge four-year private institution. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: That costs like ten times as much as this school to go to. So, it’s-- and it was a national search. So, it's-- it is, it is good to add to, ah, you know, to a resume for something like that. So, I mean (laughs). Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: You know, it's like on my way out the door, I have all these résumé items now that didn't exist before, you know? Even though I've done so much work on this campus going unrecognized, but it's now, it's now all happening right now at the perfect time. So. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: I can appreciate that. So, uh, and I also wanted to mention all the supporters that helped over this time. So, Miss Ariel Stevenson from the Office of Inclusive Excellence. Uh, Mrs. Marilyn McWilliams, Office of Inclusive Excellence, Dr. Sharon Elise, you know? These are people who supported me from the beginning to now. No holds barred, you know? They even got a little flack, you know, at times, because I'm not as accepted as everybody else. So, you know, they've asked me to do different Transcribed by Julia Friedman 20 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 projects on campus. They supported, they came to all of the events, you know? We established another club on campus: The Black SistaHood to encompass all these elements I spoke about, about photography, my photography, Black-specific, and how it assist in helping us get through this society and try to make some things positive where we turn that into a student club and organization. So, that's why I have this. That's why wore this sweater for this interview. So no, and this is more pushing love for people, you know? Loving each other, breaking through some of these stereotypes and turning these negatives into positives and becoming, you know, great people in life. So, and a lot of that's going to be exemplified in the third book, in the, “WE ARE” book, you know? So, uh, been a part of Black Student Union since I've been here, you know? Some--there was some people in the sorority, Black sorority and Black fraternity, Sigma Gamma and Omega Psi Phi, a few, there's a few individuals that supported me and helped as well. And then the Black Student Center itself has been the hub for all of this. So once that was established and created, it allowed me a centered space because before I had to walk around the entire campus, like loop every building and hang out during every U-hour, whether I had class or not. And just try to like find people. So that's what I had to do before. And it's like the people out here right now, “Are you registered to vote? Are you registered to vote?” I was one of those people. With my camera and no book because the book is not made yet. So, I'm out here with a printed sheet of paper. “Hey, would you like to take a photo for my project?” And this-- and that was not as, you know, as presenting, you know, as to walk up with an already made book. So, once I got the first book, I got more yeses. Once I had two books, I got--you know, so the yeses come a lot easier. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: So, having the, the Black Student Center here, I get the crowd now. So now I have more people to choose from and it's just so much easier to do it now than it was, you know, in 2016, when I started the first book. So, it's a lot easier now. So, that may--that may be it. And uh, as long as you using the terminology "Black,” because I don't, I don't use “African American” or “people of color.” Visintainer: Yeah Northington: So, while y'all printing this, any, any printing that has to be done uh-Vistintainer: I'll, I'll send you any verbiage that we do. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: And then that way you can look it over and-Northington: Okay, okay. Visintainer: Correct me, if I'm making a mistake. Northington: (laughs) Well, you know, it's not a mistake for other people, but for me that, you know, it just doesn't work for me. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: So, that might be it. And then shout out to the, the people who are coming behind me, you know, Shamar. We got (unintelligible) Williams. She's been working with me the most here. So, she's a senior now and she's in my same major field: visual performing arts. And she's helped a lot over the last Transcribed by Julia Friedman 21 2022-09-27 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2019-11-22 year because I've been just forcing her and pushing her to do her photos, to do her artwork, you know? And then as I mentioned with Gordon Parks, this isn't one element, like I told you before, the photo is just one thing that I've done on this campus. So, I make these shirts, I make these logos, these designs, you know? So, all of the BSU gear you've seen, all of the Black Student Center gear you've seen for the most part, all the Black SistaHood, Black Brotherhood, you know, Transitions Collective. I did some logos for them. Project Rebound, I'm designing a logo for them right now. So, there's so many elements to the artwork that I produced on campus. So, and I've done about four or five, like a components--we just saw the art exhibit. But then I already did two exhibits here in the library and we're working on the third with the art department right now on sustainability. So, I have an art project, uh, a water art project that's going to be in sustainability, you know? If that happens in the spring, that's still talking about that. I did a sustainability project with ASI about straws. And this was right before they banned straws on this campus. We were trying to make a push to get rid of straws and how this affected the aquatic life. And we, you know, we created like a sea turtle with a straw in his mouth and shows how this kind of messes them up. So, uh, spent a lot of things like that on campus. So, I just want to make sure it's not just photography. Visintainer: Sure. Northington: I would say it's art and I'm sure you understand that it's art and, but this part is the photography, but there's so much more that I've been a part of on campus than that. And now I want the next group of people like Shamar to come along and continue it. Because if I--you know, once I leave it's over, it shouldn't be, it shouldn't end. It should be fifteen, twenty more people. So, I try to do my part and help them learn the right avenues, meet some people, you know? That's why I asked them to come and be here and to see a different process, you know? "Okay, this is where I started. And then I could do this, this, this, this, this.” They can do the same thing I'm doing, you know? It's not, it's not that special. You have to do the work, you know? You have your vision, you have what, your passion and then you need to do the work. And you'll get everything that you want out of it. So. And that's, that's probably all I got right there. Visintainer: Alright. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: Well, thank you, Jake. Northington: (both talking at once) No problem. Visintainer: (talking at once) I really appreciate you coming by and chatting with us. Northington: Make sure we see, uhVisintainer: Yes. Northington: The women that I love. And then the men’s book. And the third book will be coming soon. Visintainer: Alright. Northington: Alright. Visintainer: Thank you, sir. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 22 2022-09-27 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northington, Jake. Interview transcript. November 22, 2019. Description An account of the resource Jake Northington is a California State University San Marcos alumnus. He graduated with his degree in Photography in 2019. In this interview, Jake discusses his artistic influences, the importance of Black representation in his photography, and his involvement in CSUSM’s Black Student Center and the Black SistaHood. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jake Northington Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-11-22 Subject The topic of the resource Artists, Black California State University San Marcos -- Black Student Center California State University San Marcos -- Students Portrait photography Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) East Saint Louis (Ill.) 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Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jake Northington OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NorthingtonJake_VisintainerSean_11-22-2019_Access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Photography art student representation Black art OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Oral history of Jake Northington, November 22, 2019 SC027-13 1:19:31 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM Artists, Black California State University San Marcos -- Black Student Center California State University San Marcos -- Students Portrait photography Photography art student representation Black art Jake Northington Sean Visintainer Video NorthingtonJake_VisintainerSean_11-22-2019_Access.mp4 1:|22(12)|38(4)|55(4)|71(13)|88(2)|109(7)|123(8)|138(12)|156(3)|178(2)|193(4)|206(6)|229(13)|242(7)|255(3)|273(10)|291(6)|316(4)|331(7)|346(15)|363(13)|378(10)|400(10)|412(9)|423(9)|434(11)|447(1)|458(6)|471(11)|484(3)|496(10)|513(2)|528(7)|539(12)|550(3)|561(6)|574(2)|587(1)|599(6)|612(13)|631(3)|642(14)|654(4)|668(3)|682(3)|695(6)|715(9)|727(9)|741(14)|755(2)|770(6)|783(1)|796(7)|811(1)|826(6)|836(11)|854(10)|866(1)|887(7)|902(3)|931(10)|943(6)|956(13)|968(9)|996(8)|1012(5)|1030(11)|1053(2)|1072(3)|1084(8)|1104(6)|1134(2)|1156(11)|1169(13)|1218(2)|1233(9)|1250(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d2ed47e7379313178c08129ae5d93fcf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction / Growing up and photography influence Sean Visintainer: This is Sean Visintainer and I'm interviewing Jake Northington as part of the Cal State San Marcos University Archive's Oral History Project. The interview took place on Friday, November 22nd, 2019 at the University Library, California State University San Marcos. Jake, thank you very much for talking with us today. I thought we'd start off by talking about some of your formative years, especially how they relate to your passion for photography. So, I wanted to ask you a few questions about your childhood and early adult life. And I wanted to start off just by asking, where were you born? Jake Northington: That I don't know the answer to. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, I grew up as an orphan and I lived in many cities, many states. Uh, I've seen a couple of birth certificates. So, not really sure, but, I grew up in East St. Louis, Illinois. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: That's why I grew up. Visintainer: So you grew up in East St. Louis. Was there any ways in which your childhood or your upbringing influenced your photography? Northington: Uh, yes. I would say yes. You know, uh, if you've ever heard of a guy by the name of Gordon Parks. So throughout the fifties and sixties, he photographed the civil rights movement and a lot of activists socially. So, seeing those type of pictures and watching movies produced by Spike Lee and other people through Black films, they would use a lot of still shots to enter into the movie or to exit out of the movie. So, the beginning and the ending to bookcase the movies, they would show a lot of still shots from Gordon Parks. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: You know, so that was probably the first time I saw images like that and the images Gordon Parks takes in particular of Black people living everyday life, you know? So, and that introduced me to other photographers that particularly took pictures of Black people that you would never see that I wouldn't see in magazines or on TV or anything like that. So. Visintainer: And when you say he took pictures of Black people living everyday life, are there any images that you recall that really stand out to you? Northington: Yes. Uh, he has a picture of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King smiling together at a banquet function. And it is like [19]66 or [19]67. And these are two people that have polarizing views of what Black people should do in America socially. So, you have one guy who wants to fully work with the system and you have one guy who wants to fully oppose the system. So, you have two different dynamics at play from the same, uh, atmosphere from the same starting point growing up at the same time yet they have two different ways of going about it. And then you see these people cordial and friendly. So that's an amazing picture for people in the Black community to see that you can have opposing views and still work for the same progression of your people. So. Visintainer: Okay. Thank you. Did he take pictures as well of less famous Black people? Northington: Yes. Yes, because that's, again, the start. So, from the research, it seems that he took a lot of pictures of jazz musicians. He even did short films himself, you know? So it was all encompassing. He became more famous for the photography, but he also did films. I believe he wrote a book as well. And, uh, so it's, it's a little, you know, all-encompassing to produce an entire artwork with the varying degrees and various wrinkles. So, it's not just one avenue and that's kind of the way I take my artwork, because photography's just one element of it. I didn't start off taking pictures. I started off drawing pictures. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, I draw still and that's still the basis of it all is drawing. So, I would consider taking pictures, just drawing with the camera. Jake Northington discusses growing up in East St. Louis and how his upbringing influenced his photography. Northington explains how Black photographer Gordon Parks, who documented the civil rights movement, was an inspiration to his work. Black photography ; East Saint Louis (Ill.) ; Gordon Parks ; Photography 233 Introduction to photography/ Studying at CSUSM Visintainer: Alright. So when did you make the transition from drawing into photography? Northington: Just three years ago, in one class here at this school. I took a--it's a digital photography class taught by Nancy diBenedetto. She's in the Navy and she was an adjunct professor at that moment. I don't know if that may be in her second or third year teaching here. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, in, uh, she thought I took pretty good pictures. So she gave me a few pointers. She kind of showed us a lot of stuff in the class. You know, we did so many field trips to go to different arenas. We went to farms, we went to parks and, you know, on campus and she put us everywhere. And then we went to see an photography exhibit downtown at Balboa Park they had a photography exhibit and the whole class had to go there. So, to see the photos you take and then be able to compare them to professional photography. It gives you, you know, something to look for or it allows you to see things you could correct yourself, you know? So, and that's how I kind of see photography, you making your own corrections, you know? And then if you're satisfied, then it's a good photo for you. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Because they can all be looked at so differently. So, that's how hard is. Visintainer: Was it intimidating when you first started out comparing yourself to people in exhibitions? Northington: Not at all, not at all because I'm a person that always went to art museums. I went to plenty of exhibitions prior to this class, you know? Art is my whole world. So, I see everything as art: cars, clothes, shoes, a pencil, you know? I used to play with my mechanical pencils and take them apart, put them back together to see how it was put together, why they chose these colors, why they have the writing on it, you know? And for me, all of that is art because somebody with an artistic mind had to design your mechanical pencil, your eraser, your--your steering wheel on your car. So, it all plays a part. So, I wouldn't consider my stuff in a comparison measure to be less than it's just, this is the way I see it. That's the way they see it. There's two different eyes behind the camera. So, I wouldn't do that, but I'd look at their work and see like, “Okay, there's more clarity here, there's more depth.” There's more layers to their photography versus me taking a picture of a person. And there's just a wall in the background. There's no layers. So, I would be able to get some type of a scope of these are other things that are possible with the photos and then talking about the mood of the person. Can I really see the mood? I got more of that from watching modeling shows, you know? Of how your eyes can give away a smile or your eyes can give away a frown without the facial expression. So, then I have to input that into the photo. And now I'm trying to communicate that with the person in the photo to get the look I'm looking for. So, you know, it's a little bit of elements all over the place to put it all together. Jake Northington discusses studying photography at California State University San Marcos (CSUSM). Through a photography course, Northington was exposed to various arenas and exhibitions related to the medium. He explains how art is a part of our world and the elements that comprise work of art. California State University San Marcos ; Digital photography ; Photography ; San Marcos (Calif.) 412 Photography techniques / Mentoring students Visintainer: Okay. And do you started off with drawing, so I'm assuming that your experience and your learning as you started off with drawing, transferred into photography pretty well as well, but I was curious, were there any specific lessons or techniques that you took from your background in drawing and art that transferred directly into photography? Northington: Yes. The biggest thing I would say is filling up the space. So, before I started taking pictures, I would see a lot of people take pictures on social media and all these other things. I'm not a picture person myself. So, I don't just sit down and take pictures of myself or other people. I didn't-- I never did that, but I would do it mentally. So, you know, and you would see a picture or a background mentally before I even had the camera. So, I'm already doing it in my head. And then, uh, you know, people would, most people do it. They go, “Oh, that's a nice sunset.” Or, “Look at those mountains.” You're taking a visual picture in your head, you know, and this is why they can sell their painting at Marshalls. You go to Marshalls and you pick up the painting of the canvas of the Carlsbad beach area or the pier in Oceanside. You can sell that because it's a nice visual and you just capture that. And then, uh, I think everybody does that to a different degree. So again, picking up the camera, I've already had that exercise in my mind. So, from drawing, I got filling up the picture because I started drawing cartoons. So now I come in class and I'm taking art class. The professor would say, “You have to fill up the background, it's empty,” you know? You make it too one-dimensional or two-dimensional with no layers. You want to make it pop. You want to make it stand out. You want--so you need to add three, four, five, ten dimensions, whatever. Keep adding layers. So, filling up the whole sheet of paper and making an entire scene is what I took over to the photography side from, from drawing. Visintainer: Okay. And that's interesting. And when you mentioned cartoons, especially, so when I think of cartoons, I think of panels. Northington: Yes. Vistintainer: And I think of you know, word balloons and things that do fill up a panel there. Um, but oftentimes there's real kind of blank or not defined backgrounds. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Do you try to do something similar with your portraiture, especially? Or do you utilize the backgrounds, uh, in a way that would be maybe different from how--? Northington: I would say it's both and it all depends on the intent of that photo. So, if the intent of that photo includes the background, then I'll make the black background a little more apparent and then if it doesn't, then you kind of shoot an aperture mode to, you know, to fizzle out the background, you know? And that's like a new app on everybody's phone, everybody's shooting in portrait mode on their, on their iPhone and it'll fuzz out the background, you know? So that's, if that's necessary for what I'm trying to get across then yes. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: If not, I'll really include the background, you know? Specifically with the photos you've seen with the sunlight actually being included in the background though, it's ninety-three million miles away so they say. Visintainer: Alright. Um, I think we've already covered a little bit about your instruction with tutoring, or tutoring that you had as well as your background in art. So, I kind of wanted to move on and ask you kind of in a reverse question, have you taken on any students or mentees yourself? Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Or in, so what advice did you give them? Northington: The same advice I get. And you know, one of the bigger things that probably the number one piece of advice I got from Nancy diBenedetto is just keep taking pictures. You have to make all the mistakes over and over and over and over and over and over. And then next year and I take ten thousand more pictures. I'm comparing my pictures now to my pictures, you know? And that's an easier fix and it allows you to grow within yourself versus I'm going to compare my pictures to somebody that's already in the magazine shooting for Getty Photos. You don't want to, you know, that's a big jump and you may never get there. And then understanding how much equipment plays a role. You could shoot with a, you know, a Polaroid camera from some convenience store that you got from CVS versus shooting with a $10,000 camera, you know, from Best Buy. That same person is going to produce a different quality of photo just from the equipment alone. So, learning that, you know, uh, learning, setting the background, and implanting the person versus trying to take the person and implant the background, you know? That was a big thing I learned too. So, that's something I teach some people. I have about four or five right now, just picked up a new guy, Shamar. So, I got about four or five students here at school that I kind of help out and assist with all the things that I've been told. And then I try to help them just develop their own way, you know? Don't take pictures like me, take pictures like you, you know? Don't become a copycat. You see what you saw in it. And I'll just try to help with, you know, technical things, things that may stand out to make this possibly not as good of a picture. But I can't help you with what you saw, what you see, what you want to produce. I don't want to touch that because that's for you. Visintainer: Okay. There were a couple things I wanted to come back to. Um, one of them is you mentioned you got to make the same mistakes over and over and over. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some mistakes in photography that you made over and over and over before realizing--? Northington: Lighting. Visintainer: Lighting? Northington: Lighting. Uh, there's so many small things. There may be twenty-five or thirty things you have to do before you take a picture. And if you forget one of them, you'll be mad once you go to editing, you know? You walk outside, the sunlight is in one space in the sky. If you forget that and throw it out of your mind, then you're going to have a bunch of dark shadows on everybody's face. So, unless that was what you was exactly trying to do, then you kind of threw a lot of your pictures off. You want the light on them, you know. Learning the red, the orange and the blue and the white lights, you know, using the application on your actual camera, the white balance, you know, that's something that I didn't even pay attention to. Even though Nancy taught us in class, I spent a lot of months not using my white balance and you'll get a yellowish undertone to people's skin and the colors scheme will be off. And now in editing, you have to go through and try to mute all that yellowish and greenish because you didn't do a proper white balance, you know? So stuff like that, I had to waste a bunch of photos and SD cards because I didn't, you know, take that into account. So where are my light source come from? Having enough light for the individual. Focus--my focus points, you know, the different variations you could, adjust your camera to, you know? Shooting in portrait or shooting in, you know, a fast pace or a slow pace. Understanding that, uh, your camera only captures so much depending on the lens. So, if I have a $700 lens, I could do a little bit more than that standard lens you come with, but I have a $2,000 lens I can do even a little bit more. It allows for even more mistakes because that vibration control works a lot better in the $2,000 lens than it does in that standard lens you get. So, understanding all of those things before I even take the photo. Using a tripod to take photos versus handheld, because nobody can sit still, you have a heartbeat, your body can’t sit still. You have to hold your breath and pause everything. You know, that’s just like, you know? Anybody that does weaponry, you learn the same thing. When you have to shoot a rifle on a range, you have to hold your breath, squeeze in between your breath, because that’s the only still you’re going to get. It’s the same thing. I think that’s what you call it, “shooting with the camera,” cause yeah, it’s some of the same techniques. So, anybody that shoots rifles, it’s kind of the similar techniques. For putting it’s a similar technique. So, shooting free throws, similar technique, you know, those positions, you have to pause that breath. So, all of those things at once before you even take the picture, if you rush through it, you just wasted some time. I had to do it. And then I look back at my photos from the beginning. Because I even have a book that's not out for anybody to see because it's a book of mistakes, you know? And I keep it and I have it in my room and I look at it from time to time. I can't--this is where it started, you know? A lot of blown out pictures because it's too much light, a lot of yellow skin because no white balance, a lot of blurry pictures because my arm is moving too much. And I have to keep it to look at my mistakes to remind myself, to keep all of these things in mind before I shoot the picture. So, you know, that’s, it’s a part of it and it’s--it's needed. Visintainer: Yeah. Do you keep all of your photos that you take? Northington: Yes. So, I have quite a few hard drives so, and the only thing I don't like is they usually last, you know, four or five years and you got to switch them up again. Don't like that, but you know, because you have to keep paying for that over and over and over, but yeah, you should. I would tell people to keep them all because if you get rid of your mistakes, you can't see them. It's hard to improve like that. So, unless you’re always going to have a teacher right ahead of you constantly doing, you know. So it’s hard to self-improve without a constant teacher or a constant reminder of the things you need to work on. So, and I would employ people to do that on their own by always having a teacher because you’re being guided a little too much. Take your own steps. So. Jake Nortington explains different photography techniques, such as adding layers and defined backgrounds. Northington also discusses mentoring students and the advice he lends to them about creating art and photography. He stresses the importance of making mistakes and learning from one’s mistakes to his student mentees. Art ; Drawing ; Mentoring ; Photography ; Photography--Techniques ; Students 1005 Selecting photography subjects Visintainer: I think that's good advice. There was another thing I wanted to come back to and that was, you mentioned importing your subjects into your backgrounds. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: And forgive me if I'm not phrasing exactly how you did. And I thought that was really interesting because you do portraiture, you go out, you look for people that I assume that are, that you want to have that are subjects. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: So, I wanted to ask you a little bit about the process of how you choose your subjects. Northington: (laughs) Yeah. Visintainer: And then I guess the follow up, you know, beyond the process of how you choose your subjects, then how do you insert them into the backgrounds? Do you choose your backgrounds and look for a subject or, what do you do? Northington: I don’t even decide, it decides itself. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, just being a student, you have to walk around campus, you take enough classes, you’ll go into every building on campus. So, been here almost four years now. So, I’ve been in every building. As I’m always walking, I’m seeing these scenes, making mental notes. I want a picture right there. I want a picture right there. Mental note--it just built this bridge across the street. I need a picture right there from the bridge. So, you know, and there's a lot of tall buildings here. So, it gives for a lot of angles. A lot of birds-eye-views and worms-eye-views. So, it is a lot, it's enough layers here, even in a compact campus. So, all of those backgrounds are constantly piling up. So now I have all these backgrounds. Northington: Now it's about the people. Who do I want to use for the next photo? It's all that random, you know, but I don't want anybody too excited. I prefer a person who is on the edge of saying “No,” but they'll do it anyway. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: That's what I want. I don't want somebody that, “Oh, I take a thousand pictures for social media every day.” No, they usually are too excited, too much to calm down. That's just been what I've seen just from taking pictures for three years. People that are over excited to take photos, it's usually for me. Other people may be different, but for me it's more difficult to get them to the look, the feel and the expression that I need for the photo. And that photo shoot would last two hours. When I could have got the picture in seven minutes with a person that's more calm and mundane and melancholy. We can get the photo in seven minutes and then now I can spend thirty minutes getting a bunch of photos to use for later. So that's more conducive for me. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, and I particularly want people who have never seen. So, the invisible people is what I want. Melancholy, invisible. That's the people I want: the unseen. You know, people walk around every day and pretend like homeless people are not standing on the street with a sign asking for water or food. Yet, they're walking a dog, picking up behind a dog, feeding the dog and walk right past a homeless human being, you know? So, we see this every day in society. So, the unseen get no support, no help, you know? They don't get to smile. They don't get to feel good about themselves, you know? We can change that. So that's a part of the social activism of my work. I want the people who are less recognized, the people who may then have such a good time in middle school or high school, got picked on. Maybe wasn't as tall as everybody else. Not as muscular, not as attractive, not as whatever, you know, &quot ; -ism” you want to use. Those people should be recognized, because everybody should be included. So, there’s no popularity contest with my photos. I’ve turned down more people than most. Because people that ask me to take their photos, it's probably ninety-seven percent time, it's a “No.” I say “no” every week. So (laughs). Visintainer: When do you say “yes” when somebody asks you to? Northington: If it's like a social, like, situation as I'm graduating? Okay. That's a necessary-- to capture this moment. You know, [if] I'm having a birthday party, you know, something like that. People celebrate different, you know, different holidays and stuff like that. So, those are understood situations. But when it's like, “Oh, can you take pictures of me? Can you take?”-- because it's a lot of that. You know, people are doing that with phones every day. But when they find out somebody has a camera and oh, you take pictures a little, you know, on a little higher level than a camera phone. “Oh, can you get these pictures of me for this or for this?” you know, I get some of the same people over and over and over. Even after I’ve taken pictures for them, they’ll keep coming back for more and more and more. No, no, no. That’s enough. You have a phone on your camera. That’s enough. You know, because I believe you’ve already accomplished what we needed to with the photos. You feel good about yourself, you know? And you’re walking around elevated. Good. We made it happen. That's so that's enough for me. So, I don't need to entertain that anymore. So, we trying to pick up the people who feel a little, you know, more lowly about themselves. Pick those people up. Jake Northington describes his process of choosing his portraiture subjects. He explains that he prefers for his subjects to be individuals who are rarely seen. Northington’s photography aims to capture the “invisible” or unsupported people in society. He hopes that his photography is a form of activism, which can bring awareness to the “unseen” individuals in our community, such as the homeless. Black people in art--Photography ; Photography ; PHOTOGRAPHY / Subjects &amp ; Themes / Portraits 1306 Black representation in art and media Visintainer: So, one of the things that I think separates beyond skill level, obviously that separates art and photography from say more commercial enterprises, like, you know, capturing a wedding or something like that is a philosophy or a thought process-- Northington: (both talking at once) Yes. Visintainer: (both talking at once) --behind the production of the art. And you've talked a little bit about, um, about how you want to make sure that the people that are unseen are seen. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: But I was curious if there's other philosophies that you take into the production of your art as well? Northington: Yes. My photography is particularly for Black people. So, it does two things. It’s force feeds Black images, Black positive images into everybody’s purview. I’m going to force feed it. There’s something—this comes back to just being a kid and I will walk in Walmart with everybody else that goes to Walmart since they’re billions and billions of dollars every year. You walk in Walmart and, and maybe you just need a picture frame because you and your family just had a family reunion or your grandmother’s birthday was celebrated, and you go pick up this picture frame and the family in the picture frame stock photo never looks like me. Ever. So, that's the standard. And then, you know, you play soccer, or me? I played tennis growing up and we win a little trophy and the figurine on top of the trophy is never me. It's never my people. And then let's say you fall in love with somebody, you get married and you go to the place to order your wedding cake. And you have to specially order the Black figurines and you wait a few weeks for it to come in the mail because everything in the store that's standard is not me. It's not my people. So, you can go across all media, all aspects of society. And the standard is one group. Everybody else becomes, you know? Well, they get to choose if they include you or not. So, what's happened for many commercials, many movies? We have this idea of the token, we'll insert one, you know, non-white person that could be anybody, you know? They may insert one Asian, one Latino, or one Black person, Disney movies do it all the time. Disney TV shows do it all the time. If you've ever seen South Park, they have a character called Token and he has a big “T” on his t-shirt and it's a Black kid that lives in South Park, Colorado amongst all of the other white kids. You know? This is a real thing in life and in a place particularly like San Marcos, this is not a Black city. It's not a Black area, you know? So, we have a lot of Black students here who were the one in their entire group of friends and, you know, sports, anything, they were involved in. So they're not the standard. So going back to Walmart, let me go get, you know, some stuff, some products for my hair. And there's an aisle called an “ethnic hair aisle” in Walmart. One aisle, two or three shells with hair products that's supposed to be for me. And then there's one, two, three, four, five whole aisles for the “standard” people. So, you know, the photography or the standard of people can be influenced by these things. So, you can learn to understand that you're not included by growing up like that. And those are just a few aspects, you know? Cartoons, whatever--toys, everything. A lot of little Black girls were getting little baby doll toys or Barbies or whatever. And it doesn't look like them. So, these things can help pull away at yourself, how you feel about yourself, how you view your skin, your hair, you know, your people in America. It could pull away and produce these negative aspects. And then you see yourself in film and you're always a drug dealer, a crack head, a prostitute, on welfare. Forever. So much so that a movie like the Marvel Black Panther movie makes a billion dollars and it automatically changes so many people's view. And it automatically brings up the feeling of a group of Black people. Or, 2008, when Barack Obama comes into office, you see the spiritual uplift of a bunch of Black people because of representation. And then he has so many books out between him and his wife. They produce different books. There's so much photography of them. There's so many art pieces that were made because they came into the office, you know? There's a there's a professional painter that did a huge piece on Michelle Obama. That's famous all throughout social media, just for the representation. So, propaganda can be positive or negative. So, I'll take my photography to create some more, just add to the positive end. So, I feel like anybody can do that. If you have a camera phone in your hand, everybody can do that. So, I just choose to be on the more positive end because all of my life has only been negative for my people through film, photography, or otherwise, you know? Just pull up any school website and look at the photos they use for the school website. I almost never see my people in any realm, any aspect. Just Google any business, you know? There became a trend that you would only see Black people in McDonald's commercials and Cadillac commercials. And that's been the trend for like thirty years. And then, you know, Black History Month comes up and then you'll see somebody get inputted somewhere else, you know? Or like, the NBA is like eighty, eighty-five percent Black, but then during Black History Month, they have NBA Black history t-shirts that everybody in the NBA has to wear. So, you'll get that one time and then everything else is standard, you know, stuff like that. So, that's the way I look at it. I see it that way. I go, “Okay, how can we improve this?” I can put out more positive Black images. So, I will. So, I go look for people who may be down on themself, who may be just, “I'm just going to hide in the shadows,” or, “I'm unseen,” you know? That's the people I would prefer if I--if they're willing to be a part of it. And then just, you know, gradually go up and up and up. And then when we get too far to somebody’s just over-- “Okay, it's enough.” So, I'm just trying to get that aspect. That's not really, picked out and use and you know, uh, it could be commercial art. It could be just, you know? Fine art, any way you want to take it, but these things are going to last forever. So that's kind of the thought process behind the book. The photo books. They last forever. You can look back at this when you have kids and the grandkids and this event happened, you know? It happened. You have these yearbooks in high school. People always look back at the yearbooks, you know? A lot of grandmothers used to have this big photo album on a coffee table and you come to your grandmother's house and look at all these photos, you know? So, since those were a part of my life, this was a part of the process. Like, okay, I could put all that together and let's just tell a story with this book. And then, I use the book and find a social issue that affects Black people. So, and let's try to correct that social issue through photography, using the Black students here and then give them these photos. And I gave many of them the books that are in the books. Now they get to say they've been a part of this. They get to know. Their family gets to know. So, these pictures get to now reverberate through the Black community. Much like if you saw, you know, Michelle and Barack Obama walk across the stage 2008. So, it gives some type of spiritual upliftment. You feel proud of yourself and who you are, versus comparing yourself to the stock photo in the picture frame at Walmart. Visintainer: Yeah. So, you talked a little bit about representation right now, and then we've talked in the past about representation. And this is not necessarily a photography-related question, but I was curious, as a person of color, when you're out in the world and you don't see representation all around you, what are the kind of the kind of self-care approaches that you take to remain positive in an environment where there's an absence? Northington: Well, just the phrase you just use that I don’t use myself. “Person of color” is not in identifiable nomenclature for me or how I use for my people. You have notion such as “African American.” That’s not--that’s not for me to use. That’s for other people. That’s only been around nineteen years. U.S. census in a year 2000 added “African American” as an identifying, you know, political term to be used. That didn’t exist before then. So, I did a project in the library about that, you know, that we did here. And I showed how the nomenclature of Black people have changed since 1790 census to today. So, there’s been, you know, quite a few terms and phrases. So, the phrase that is currently used now is “people of color.” I don’t use that because you kind of amalgamate everybody into a group and that can be good in certain aspects. But for me, that adds more negative-- Visintainer: Okay. Northington: --For Black people, because we get away from talking about Black issues, and Black people by calling all issues of non-whites people of color issues. So, and a lot of these things need to be particular because people of color don't get kicked out of high school for their hair. People of color are not being murdered at this such high rate by the police on TV. So that's why I can't use a term like that or a phrase like that. But I do understand why people use it and then it gets, you know, it gets, you used a lot, but I--I can't use those terms because what affects Black people particularly is not a people of color issue, you know? People of color in hair that's, you know, it's such a different thing. So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: --You know, just try to keep it a little more positive. And, uh, so, going back to your question. I would say, the women's book in particular, the main issue was like, I just brought up, the hair. So, there's black kids getting kicked out of school by the thousands every single year, just for having their natural hair, because my hair grows as my hair is supposed to. Your hair grows as it's supposed to. How can this now be a factor in who can be in school and who can't? And who's unkept and who's not, you know? So, we have Supreme Court rulings on this. Many states have their own state's law and federal law doesn't include, you know, the Constitution has nothing about hair in it, you know? Because that was the standard of one group of people. So, hair wasn't an issue. So, we have a lot of state Supreme Court ruling and that led me to the focus of the first book I did on natural hair. So, in 2016, they had an Eleven Circuit Court Supreme Court ruling said employers could in fact discriminate against natural hairstyles. If they see it to be unfit, unkept, unprofessional. So, to even be allowed to do that legally, that’s not a people of color issue, you know, that’s Black-specific. So, I had to dive into that with the book. So, I went around campus and uh, just would just keep my eyes open for any Black people who just walked around freely with natural hairstyles, their natural hair all the way out, you know? Who may not believe in that “I'm going to be clean cut because society told me to,” you know, my hair has to be cut off. Yet, I sit in class and see all these other races of people who get to enjoy their hair being as long as they choose to. And they're not assumed to be violent or thug or unkept, you know? So, you could walk around with a ponytail and it wouldn't be seen as anything other than hip. But I let my hair grow, and now society makes a direct connection from me and my natural hair to 1966 Black Panther Party. Just my natural hair alone, I get directly, “Oh, you like a Black Panther?” Why would they do that? You know why? Because the photography that existed in 1966, taking pictures of Black people in Black social movements, they all look like this with their natural hair, the men and the women have the same natural hair. So now, America, hasn't seen that since the sixties, thousands upon thousands. So, you had about twenty-five to twenty-eight million Black people at that point. And for a lot of them to just be walking around naturally, completely, like this, that's a different thing. Because it's like, this group is very different than this group. And it's almost like a highlighter, a notify, you know? And at this point, as you go to the “people of color” term, the term that was used at this point was “Afro-American.” It’s in literature. It’s all over the place at this time. It’s in movies, everywhere. Interviews everything. Because it notified the hair. Afro-American. Well, that since passed and a lot of people went into different hairstyles and different things have changed. So much so that when now I exist, the only correlation is 1966 through the sixties and early seventies is Black Panther Party. So, I get that every day. Can I help change that? Yes. With the book, with the pictures. Particularly discussing hair and how my hair has to always be political. My hair has to always have a law. My hair has to always fit into the scheme of the society as they make the rules. So, we had to fully discuss this hair regulation policy, because it doesn't just exist with that one employer for that one Supreme Court rule in an Eleven Circuit Court. This happens at every, it happens here. It happens when I go to job interviews, you know, I've been asked to cut my hair before and I just didn't work at that place, you know? It's a little different for me. What if I wanted to get a job that requires hats like an officer or, you know, a firefighter, baseball player. The hats are not made for me and my hair. That hats are made for the “standard” American. You know, if your hair lays down in a particular pattern, then a hat doesn't change anything as far as your hair. Well, if I were a size seven hat with my hair low, that changes with my hair longer. It may not change as much as you because your hair would press down and it wouldn't be, you know, wouldn't be messed up. Anything like that. Well, it's different for me or if I'm the only sector of society, that's going to have such a significant difference in that manner. The rules didn't change for me and for Black people. So, just trying to help point out some of these things, you know, with the books and with the photography. So, that’s why I said it can work in both ways. You’re uplifting Black people and then you’re throwing it in the face of everybody else. “Hey, this is who we are. This is what we look like. I'm born this way,” you know? So, this is supposed to be the era of “inclusion.” That's one of the newest words being used in the last two or three summers. “Inclusivity.” “Equity.” And all of these things. Those sound good. And you know, people may have the best intent. But how inclusive are you? If you're asking me to cut my hair, how inclusive are you? If you accept Black people, when their hair is straight, you know, processed. You accept that version. But that same Black woman, if she comes with a hair natural, it's a problem. So much is a problem that many Black women get unrecognized when they come to work one week with their hair pressed and they come to work two or three months later with their hair like mine. “Oh, I thought we had a new coworker. I didn't recognize you.” You know, this happens every day. If I cut my hair right now, I guarantee you, I come to school next semester. Some people will—&quot ; Oh, I didn't realize that was you.” Because my face changed (laughs) due to my hair. You know, so, uh, being that our hair has seen is so negative and the negativity comes from the connection to the Black Power Movement throughout the sixties and seventies. So, one of the things, one of the greatest things is our bodies need to be seen as human and as positive. So, the photography about the hair includes that as well, you know? See us happy, we're on campus, we're students, you know, we're coworkers. You need to get used to seeing us in our natural form, how we are. So, the people who may hate or have a disdain for those images, that's a part of them seeing this as well. So, this is what it would do to people who are not Black and then uplift the people who are Black. So, we can kind of, you know, create some social change. So, you could be a little more uncomfortable with seeing a person that looks like me, because you’ve seen it. So, if I'm in a commercial, if I'm in that standard photo at Walmart, if I'm on the school website, you know. If my sister's here, my mother's on this. And we see Black people in films that are also teachers, that also work in the library, that also police officers. So, it becomes accepted. And now I don't have such a, you know, a shocking response. When I see a person like me. There's so many people are shocked by me walking around school. I'm in elevators, going up steps with people. And I keep getting that. The startled response from so many students just because of my hair, that's it. So, we can help change some of these things. Visintainer: Um, to come back a little bit to people that are unseen. So, if you're looking for people that are on the verge of not being interested in being photographed and you're looking for people that are generally unseen. How do you go about convincing people to be seen? Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: If they're used to not being seen (Northington laughs), and maybe comfortable not being seen. Or maybe they're uncomfortable with it, but that's kind of what they expect? Northington: So, I mean, that becomes the work. So, it can't be easy. You know, if you want to do something easy, then I'll just take pictures of people who want to, you know? And then for me, that's not the right energy to go about it or to make the change. They want to be seen. Okay. Yeah. You know, then they're already showing themselves. So, it's not, to me, that's not a fix. So, now when dealing with a person that may be more reluctant to do that. It's not that I want to convince them. It's that I sit down and have the conversation. Let's think about ten years from now. If you make this decision, how will this affect you for ten years and ten years looking back, you know? Would you have been proud of this? You know, then I tell them my purpose for doing it, you know? Similar to some of these responses. Look at commercials, look at magazines. What do you involve yourself in on a daily basis? If you’re watching your social media, what do the ads look like? What are your favorite films? What’s your favorite music? So, look at the—already imagery of yourself. If you had the opportunity to make it positive, because, you know, there’s so much talk about these people do this to us. This group oppresses us this way. Those are true. So, what if I’m giving one small opportunity to go against that. To improve it? If my son, my daughter, my granddaughter, my great-granddaughter was able to see this great imagery of, you know, their great-grandfather or something. It uplifts them as a child. So, I can start that off from the beginning. And you are already fighting against some of the negativities against you from the beginning. So, what happens today? A lot of Black people are looking back to pictures of the Harlem Renaissance. Looking back at those, you know, Gordon Parks photos. This the, uh, what is this? Another woman, uh, [Carrie] Mae Weems, she--her photos as well. So, you have something to look back to something, to aspire to. All these images of Barack Obama, Michelle Obama. All these images of Jay-Z and Beyonce, all these, you know, you have these images to look forward to, to uplift you. You may even make some type of connection, and you can see a little bit of yourself in it, because it represents you a lot more than looking at the, uh, the Statue of Liberty or the Mount Rushmore, you know? Those are like things that are unattached to your culture or to your soul in a way, if you would see own people, you know, we have the Caesar Chavez statue on campus. Everybody probably generally understands that that's okay, it's a mark on the campus. What Caesar Chavez stands for, you know, the rights of migrant workers and all of those things. But then I would say there's another aspect of people who look at that in a different way than even I do. But in other peoples they see more self-representation, more our people work for something. And then there's a different connection. So, we can do that with statues. With imagery. So, I explain this to some of these people and then they make a decision off of that. Then some of them go, “Okay, you know what? I do want to do this.” And then they may have already told themselves they want to be seen, but they don't get the opportunity. They want to be included, but they don't get the opportunity, and they don't have the persona or the, you know, or the personality to kind of say, “Hey, you know, I like to take pictures and do this.” So, I get to now become the conduit for that. And then some of the people go, “No, that's not my arena.” And then I have to take that. But I'd rather deal with it in that way than the person screaming. “Take pictures of me, take pictures of me.” So that's kind of how it goes. Jake Northington talks about the importance of Black representation in real life, in art, and in the media. He explains how there is a lack of Black representation in all aspects of life, such as commercial art, natural hair and hair products, the wedding business, sports, and film and television. Northington also describes how he views his photography and the importance of documenting the Black community and social issues. Additionally, he discusses the politics behind Black hair and the term, “person of color.” American black history ; Anti-Black racism ; Black Hair ; Black people in art--Photography ; Black representation in art ; Black representation in media ; Obama, Barack ; Obama, Michelle ; Photography ; Racial discrimination, 2656 Personal philosophy of art/ Commerical art vs. personal art Visintainer: Thank you. Have you seen your kind of personal philosophy in relation to your art evolve over time? Northington: Yes. Yes. Uh, but the first idea of doing it from the hair perspective opened up so many other lanes, because then it goes, this is happening against Black people in society. So, let me walk down that and see how I can place that in images to where people can see the image and I don't have to put words on the paper, you know? Tell the story without putting the words on the paper. And then it opens up another lane, another lane. So, I would say the involvement, the evolving of it comes from the first stance of looking at the hair situation. The involvement came from that, and then it's just, this is happening, this is happening. Also, I'm in sociology classes, you know, I'm in a Black feminist thought class. Talk about Dr. Walkington. And I'm in a Black communities class. Talk about Dr. Muhammad. So, we're talking about the aspects of Black immigration, the aspects of over sexual sexualizing Black women, you know? Things like this, more avenues. Now I can use that in the photography and help try to curve some of those negativities. So, it just continues to just go out and go out and go out. And more ideas are just constantly popping up. So, that would add to the evolving measure. And then these are open doors for me to take photography of so many other people, you know? So once the photos get posted online or other people post the photo, I took it in and tagged. Then now I'll get a message saying, “Hey, can you take pictures of me at my birthdays coming up? I have my 22nd birthday. Me and my friends, can you come take--” then that'll happen. And then from that, I had two different companies go, “Oh, hey, we have an event, uh, company that we constantly do events, ten or twenty a year. Are you available to take events for our-- take photos for our events?” So, I have one company I've been taking event photos for three years and another one for a year. And then, so it just keeps going and going and going. And then that adds for a lot of practice. Because I'm getting different lighting situations, indoor, outdoor, overhangs, you know, candlelit lights, you know? So everything's a little different. So, it allows for a lot of practice to do the actual photography that I'm passionate in. So, that's kind of some of the involvement. Visintainer: Okay. So, you've got a commercial aspect to what you're doing then. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: And you talk a little bit about how you utilize that to grow your personal art. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some of the things that don't translate when you're doing commercial photography to your artistic side? Northington: Um, we're not really attacking any particular social issue when we're doing commercial art, so it's more, “Let’s enjoy life.” The commercial art becomes more about enjoying life. Like, okay, it's the time to fight against, you know, injustices, it's the time to sit down and do your work and it's the time to enjoy life. So, and the commercial art tends to just, you know, live in that arena. Let's enjoy life, let's have fun. But that also still becomes a correction because it used to be illegal for Black people to get together and hang out, you know? You have the slave codes of Virginia, 1684, they have slave codes and you can’t congregate, you know? South Carolina has some of the same slave codes and many of these things were supposed to be overturned and go out the window after the Civil War. Well, you know, those people still had jobs. So, whether the law changed or not, they still had jobs. So, they still kind of continue some of these practices. And this is where we see like a stop-and-frisk comes into play to where New York City police are growing up, stopping-and frisking can five or six Black dudes standing together. So, we can't even be together, you know? There used to be a time where you could buy a house and have a party. Well, since I've been in California, those things seem to be illegal. You can't even have a party at your apartment. Can't have a party at your house. You can't even congregate and have fun. So now people are forced to go rent out, you know, spaces and hotels and ballrooms. You got to rent out of space, pay a few thousand dollars to get people, to show up and party and have fun and then still pay for parking and all these things. It wasn't like this in the nineties. In the nineties, you lived in a place that you pay rent. You can have a party. Well, those things are like illegal now. People just call the cops. You go, no partying allowed. You know, this is even on some paperwork when you go get an apartment: no parties. Some paperwork, for Homeowners Association of that house: no parties. So, I’m an adult, I’m a human, I can't party. Because I choose to. I have to go to a club. I have to rent out a ballroom, you know? So, for Black people in particular, we need to be able to enjoy life as well with all of these stressors, you need to be able to enjoy life. So, even though this is commercial art, for some of these companies, these people are having fun and are having fun together, which is something that's not promoted. They'll show us fighting together, but not so much of us having fun together. So, there's no balance of that. So, in that aspect of thinking, I get to help provide some balance to showing Black people, enjoying each other, having fun. And then go back home to their kids, their wives, their husbands, and their jobs and school and all of that. But they come together and congregate to have fun and we never get to see it. So. Jake Northington discusses how his classes on sociology and Black feminism have further developed his personal philosophy on art and photography. He also explains the differences between his commercial art and his personal art. His commercial art encapsulates the philosophy of enjoying life. Due to stop-and-frisk policies and house party break-ups by the police, Northington understands the importance of capturing the Black community’s celebrations through photography. Activism &amp ; Advocacy ; African Americans--California--San Diego County--History ; American black history ; California State University San Marcos ; Commercial photography ; Photography ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Students 3004 Working with Black community organizations Visintainer: When it comes to your subjects for your photography, um, are there anything that you look for in particular? You've mentioned that you look for people that are--I guess maybe, you've already answered this. That you look for people that are unseen. You look for people that are reticent, to be photographed. But are there anything else that you look for in your subjects? Northington: Yes. I also look for Black community organizations or Black on-campus organizations. So, I've taken pictures for the Black faculty and staff, you know, because they have to have it. You should have photos out there. The Black Student Union, the Black Student Center, you know? There's a Black fraternity here, Omega Psi Phi. Black sorority here, Sigma Gamma Rho. And I've taken pictures for all of them because they should have the photos out there, you know? If we're not seen on campus and people pretend like we're not here. So, we're supposedly like 2.1, 2.2 percent of this campus. And you know, and that seems to be the trend all throughout the CSU, you know? There's maybe two: Dominguez Hills and Cal State Long Beach in L.A. They're in a particular area where there's a high concentration of Black people right there in L.A. So, they have a little higher of a number. The rest of the CSU is right around two percent, three percent. So, with that, we're not so much in a propaganda photography in videos at those campuses. Knowing that coming in, I want to particularly take pictures of these Black groups. So, I'll offer my services to all of these Black groups and take pictures of any events that they're doing, any tabling that they're doing and stuff like. So, I have done that here and that's a part of the focus, too. So, to make sure they're supported in that way and, you know, and they can continue on because other than that--because you do an event here and the process is you go to office communication or go to a newspaper you can request photographers to come. And then sometimes they come and they stay for two minutes, take one or two pictures and they leave. And then for me that's not enough, you know? They did their job, they did what they were supposed to do. They got the one or two pictures they're supposed to get and they left. So, they did what they're supposed to do. But for me, that's not enough. For us, it's not enough. Because we're not being represented properly. So, we need to change that. So, when they do their events and sometimes, you know, these different Black organizations ask me to come do the photography, I'll go do it. No charge, just do the event, edit the photos, put them out there. Even make some little slideshows of them and stuff like this. So, and that's led to me doing the old people's luncheon, some Halloween parties, and stuff like that on campus for even other organizations that are not Black particular. But this stuff now lasts forever. , it's amazing. This is 2019, but if somebody's not here, particularly taking pictures of Black people, none of this happened. Everybody's living off memories, you know? That's stuff that was done for people that graduated in [19]79 or [19]82 as a Black group of people. They're talking about the memories of what we went through in four or five years of college. How is that still a thing? Because if nobody's pointing them out and going, “We need to capture this on video on film,” that this happened, they did this, they did this, they did this, you know? The biggest thing here was when we got the Black students in the spring of 2017, and then you have three students who really made the biggest push. So, the ASI [Associated Students Incorporated (student government)] President at that time was Tiffany Boyd. Then you have Jamaéla Johnson and then you have Akilah Green. All three of them were ASI and they made a huge push for us to get the Black Student Center as we needed. And this was a time that all of these Black people were being shot on TV. And, so, this was a very important need for Black students on campus. So, with those three people, we had to make sure they got recognized. So, I took pictures of them. They came for the grand opening. I hope one day that their names and pictures are on the wall in the Center to get their proper due. If that didn't happen, and there's no pictures, it all goes away and there's a history forgotten. So, the photos become documentary automatically. Any photos of Black people almost automatically become a documentary and historical reference points. So that’s another point of keeping all of my photos. When you ask if I keep them. I just get to look back, you know? Even now I’ll look back three years ago when this person was a freshman or whatever. And, you know, it’s like, “Hey, remember this picture, remember this BSU [Black Student Union] meeting, or remember this event,” you know? So. Jake Northington describes his experience photographing Black community organizations and Black on-campus organizations. He explains the importance of documenting Black organizations and individuals in order to help them be better recognized and preserve their history. While a student at CSUSM, Northington has photographed Black faculty and staff, the Black Student Union, the Black Student Center, the Black fraternity, Omega Psi Phi, and the Black sorority, Sigma Gamma Rho. Northington also explains that although Black students make up about 2.1 or 2.2 % of CSUSM’s student population, they often feel invisible. He hopes his photography will bring more visibility to his community. Associated Students Incorporated ; Black people in art--Photography ; Black Student Center ; Black Student Union ; California State University San Marcos ; Omega Psi Phi Fraternity ; Photography ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Sigma Gamma Rho Sorority ; Students 3285 Giving guidance to subjects Visintainer: When you're taking your photographs, what guidance do you give your subjects? Northington: To be calm, to try to, like, take away the stress that they have, you know? Because it's almost exercise when you asked about some exercising, some positive things to kind of--because this, this also helps me, you know? This has becomes a tool of, uh, I mean, some people will call it a yoga, mental yoga, or a relaxation technique. Because just being able to take a picture of Black people and it makes them feel good. It makes me feel good. So, you know, you get to keep pushing that positive energy back into Black people. Because they need it just as much as anybody. So, if nobody's going to be particular to help pull up Black people, I'm not going to sit around and fuss about it. What aspect can I add to it? So, I'll continue to do that. So, it can help them as well, you know? Especially those people who are more quiet and shy and then they go, “Oh, this person wanted to put me in their book or wanted to put me in their video,” and that can help change them and, and it help them grow and help them feel good about themselves so I could help them. They could help me. So that's the way I take it. Jake Northington discusses the guidance he provides to his subjects. Specifically, he stresses the importance of staying calm during their photography sessions. Northington also aims to “push positivity” onto his subjects. Black people in art--Photography ; Photography ; PHOTOGRAPHY / Subjects &amp ; Themes / Portraits 3382 Satisfying moments in Northington’s work Visintainer: Can you tell me about a particularly satisfying moment in your photography? (Northington laughs) Something that really, really made you, you know--I think you get a lot of joy out of it in general. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: But something that really made you go “Well, I'm so happy to be doing what I'm doing?” Northington: Uh, well, a lot of these photos in the books, especially the Black women's book, I printed out maybe seventy, eighty of these photos on a large canvas of like twenty-four by thirty-six. And I did a thing last year where I printed all these out on steel frames and some of them were on canvas and I gave these out to people or gave them to their mothers and to their grandmothers. And that was probably the most satisfying thing because you don't normally see people from a socioeconomic deprivation to be, to make a jump, to have something that may be considered expensive artwork of their own in their house. So, imagine walking in your house and having your own huge portrait on metal, on steel, on the wall, and every time your family comes over, “Look, this is my daughter in college. Look, this is my son in college.” And they had the picture taken by somebody on campus. When you would normally have to have enough income enough, you know, throw away money, to go pay for this. And it cost you three or 400 bucks. So, because it cost about 200 bucks for the photo. And then now for the photo photographer services, you might spend 500 dollars for something like that. Just for that joy. Well, I just give it to them and then they got that joy anyway. And they were sitting around talking about it. This one girl had her mother, her father, and her grandparents and her brothers and sisters at this event done by the Black SistaHood. It's another Black organization on campus. And we did a natural hair event last year to particularly talk about our natural hair and how we treated and things we can do to improve, you know. So, and that was a part of it. So, I printed out these huge photos. So, when people walked in, they had a line of all these huge photos of Black men and women in their natural hair, smiling, loving it. And I handed out a lot of these photos at that event and these people with their family and they just loving, they posting it online and everything like. So that right there would probably be the peak, that right there. Jake Northington discusses a few satisfying moments in his work, including gifting photographs on steel frames to mothers and grandmothers of the participants from the Black women’s book, and contributing his own photographs of Black men and women in their natural hair to a natural hair event on campus. Black hair ; Black people in art--Photography ; Photography ; PHOTOGRAPHY / Subjects &amp ; Themes / Portraits 3524 The most difficult part of the photography process Visintainer: That's cool. What's the most difficult part of the process of photography or creating art for you? Northington: Uh, impatient people (laughs). Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Yeah, or people that you're trying to communicate with a person to do what you see in your head. That's always difficult, you know? It's almost like telling somebody to draw something out of your head. That's the way I look at it. It's almost that difficult sometimes because you know, people want to sit and stand like, “Okay, roll your shoulders back.” And then they do the same thing. Okay. “Chin down,” Because this is how people take pictures. “Okay, we're going to take your picture.” Okay. “Stand there.” And then people do this, uh, you have to put your chin down, then they do this. Okay. (Visintainer laughs) You know? And then I'm like, “Alright, one millimeter, two millimeters to the left, to the right.” You know, all right. “Don't look at the camera,” and then I'll take the picture. Or when I get ready to take the picture. Okay, “One, two, three,” and then they pop the same pose. Okay. Well, no, we already posed you. Sit still, “All right, let's go.” You know, and people have a--he did it. Shamar did it. He, you know, keep ticking his head to the left when it’s ready. All one, two, three. And then, you know, and I came to find out, a lot of people have a tick like that. Because people get used to taking photos. So, they have like a go-to pose. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So that go-to pose becomes a difficult thing a lot of times. So, that, and I never like it when, if people are not satisfied with the photo. So, there’s some photos that I put in the books that I really love and other people love them, you know, from the studios and everything. But then that person in the photo didn’t particularly like that one. So, we’ll take thirty or forty and I’ll ask them to choose. And then I’ll tell them the one I like. “You pick two or three and I’ll tell you one I like.” Hopefully they’re the same, but in some cases it’s not the same. And then they’re not as satisfied as I am. So, I don’t like that part either. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: But, it's a part of the process. So. Jake Northington discusses the difficulty with communicating with subjects during photography shoots. Black people in art--Photography ; Photography ; Photography &amp ; the creative process ; PHOTOGRAPHY / Subjects &amp ; Themes / Portraits ; Photography--Techniques 3645 Northington’s books Visintainer: Um, so you published two books of photography. The first book was inspired by the question of hair. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: The representation of hair. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Uh, what was the second book’s (unintelligible)? Northington: The second book is of Black men. So, the negative characterizing of Black men has always been thugs and criminals. Well, we have all these Black men here on this campus going to school that are not student athletes. They're students, you know? So, they need to be recognized as being students. So, there's plenty of Black men that have graduated from college. That's not what you see on TV. You don't see a college graduate Black man on TV, in a commercial that we know that's what it is. The representation is always a sport, you know? (laughs) Music, you know? It's pretty, after that, it gets thin, you know? So, uh, you can be a comedian, it's entertainment, and it's entertainment-based mostly, you know? And if that's the eighty percent, the ninety percent, maybe even a hundred percent of what you're going to encompass, it's hard to see them as anything else. So, this determines a lot of how we treat people. If I only see Black men represented that way, but then I go home, nobody's --and my home's Black. I'm not Black. I live in a community that's not Black. And my only visual of Black men is all this negative stuff. That's going to play on my comfortability or how I treat them. So now I come to Cal State San Marcos, I get in the elevator and I see a dude like this. I may be a little disheveled. So, if we can change some of those things, because we can, and put out the positive imagery of Black men, then these things can start to, you know, disappear. So, with that in mind, when I did the book for the Black man, again, I want people with all different hairstyles or all different natural hairstyles. But I told them not to smile because I need you to be able to be accepted for having a straight, comfortable face. I'm just sitting in a class like this, or I'm just in my Uber, or I'm just, you know, at the ATM machine. You shouldn't have to smile, dance, and entertain to be accepted. And those are aspects of vaudeville, ragtime, USA, you know? You can be accepted by this society, entertaining people as a Black man, but can you be accepted when you don't entertain? When you just live life? And that's why we have these, social things that are happening such as barbecuing while Black, driving while Black, shopping while Black. These things occur so much because of how other people view Black men, Black women, Black children. And then you're already castigated and put into the box of criminal or not American, but other American. So, you viewed a certain way. Therefore, you're treated a certain way. And then this causes stress on both ends. So now the stress is building up on us and then the stress is building up on anybody on the other side. And then now it clashes when you get to a campus, when you get to a work environment and you have this wall up on both sides. Well, that doesn't make well for society. And it doesn’t do well for people’s mental health and spiritual health, especially the people on the end receiving all the negativity. So, we can help change some of these things. So, if I'm not the one causing the racism on myself, I'm not the one that needs to make the correction. So, the people viewing this and see these Black men, not smiling, being themselves, looking like me, looking like him, looking like all different aspects of Black men. And you get to view this in a book. They're all students, they're all at this university. They all go unseen. So, let’s put this out here. So now when you see this, it forms now, “Okay, this is a little different than the rapper I saw on TV. This is a little different than the guys I see being chased by the cops.” So, I have to give you another element. So, it allows for some change, but people still have to make that choice themselves. So, that's the point for that one. Visintainer: And then you have a third book you're working on? Northington: Yes. And then the third book of this series, this is a series of books. The third book is called, “WE ARE,” and it's going to show the Black men and Black women together on campus doing regular life, you know? Studying, having fun, telling jokes, you know? Walking to their cars, walking to class, you know? Hanging out in the library, all different things, eating together, congregating, just enjoying each other's company. Because again, that's something we don't see propagated by the country, you know? There's a select few, you'll get, you know? If there's a people of color seminar, you know? There's an African American scholarship, then you'll see the commercial art for that be Black people smiling. So, it's not, it doesn't change the standard. That's a particular thing for a particular group of people. And it, you know, it's almost commodified in that way. I want to include us in the standard. So, including us in the standard becomes the change. So, I would look at it in that, in that realm. Visintainer: Do you have a, um, do you have a project after your next project? Are (unintelligible)? Northington: Yes. So as soon as I made the second book, I automatically thought I could just do a bunch of series. So, with this third book completing this series-- also, I did mention before, I think, I maybe told you on the side--all three books, I envisioned them already before I did them. So, I said, “I'm going to make another element to this.” So, the books have the photography and I have a passage in the front of the book that explains the purpose of the book. And then every book has its own title, which I explained on the first page. Then the final page of every book has the thank yous of everybody that we included that gave you the energy to the book. And the thank yous are translated into a different African language. So, with each book, you're going to learn a little bit of a different African language. Now, all three titles of the book in a series complete one sentence. So, the first book is called, “Solar Amalgamations.” The second book is called, “HUEMAN.” And the third book is called, “WE ARE.” And the whole sentence is rearranged: “We are solar amalgamations.” Well, “We are hueman [human] solar amalgamations.” And that generally means, “We are stars,” you know? We're carbon-based human beings. So, this is the carbon-based world. So, and then the human part, I spell “H-U-E-M-A-N” you know? Denoting the shade or the “hue.” Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, “We are human solar amalgamations.” And that completes that trio. After that, there's another book series I'm doing on older Black people that work on campus and things like this. So, I'm particularly looking for fifty [years old] and up, you know? So, and then another series is going to be on Black families and it's going to go on and on and on and on and keep going with that. So, this sparked just a different--and I can, I think I'm going to do this by just (unintelligible), and I'll be able to keep adding more series. So, and that's what that's going to do. So, and then this third book should be out. I want it to be done now, but people’s schedules, it's always tough. The more people that are in the photos, it gets tougher. So, it was a little easier to do the first two books because it was individuals. And then I could put it together in a week or something after I got all the photos, I spent one week putting the whole book together. But we groups. So, these photos are going to be done in groups. It's going be at least two people in every photo. And I’m trying to get some photos of six and seven and twelve people, you know? To add to that, the aspect of us together, “WE ARE,” that's the title. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: So, it should show us together. So, it may take a little longer than I thought and it may not come out into the spring. So. Visintaier: That’s a lot of scheduling direct. Northington: Yeah, yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: And I have to be the most free because I have to work with everybody else's schedule. So Jake Northington describes the themes of his three books. His first book, “Solar Amalgamations,” illustrates the representation of hair. His second book, “HUEMAN,” tackles representing Black men in a positive light. His third book, “WE ARE,” represents Black men and women congregating together on CSUSM’s campus. Together, the book series creates the sentence, “We are hueman [human] solar amalgamations.” At the time of the interview, Northington was planning two other book series on older Black individuals who work on campus and on Black families. African American men ; Anti-Black racism ; Art books collection ; Black men ; Black representation in media ; Books ; Classification--Books--Photography ; Modern photography books ; Photography ; Racial discrimination 4150 Recent art projects and exhibitions Visintainer: I think that's all of the questions that I had. Northington: Okay. Visintainer: Was there anything that I should have asked you about that I didn't? Northington: The recent recognition that's happening that never happened. I've been here going on my fourth year, as I said. And when I spoke about people being invisible, that includes me as well. So, I had to sit back and watch my fellow students that are in class with me, get their work recognized every year, every semester, over and over, you know? People that ask for my help or people that I ask for help. We're all in the same class. And you know, there's a nursing program, they all go to the same classes. There’s sociology, they all-- same thing with art. We're all in the same classes, especially in my student discipline, art and technology, we're all in the same classes. So, to see some of those students get their work put out or get recognized or see their work, you know, in different areas on campus or whatever I say, “Okay, this is how this works.” So, it doesn't stop. It doesn't turn off. So now, you know, you just come here and then you see the work in the, in the art-- it all just linked up. The students in the art department that put on the exhibit, the art juncture, you know, they reached out because a few of my art professors let them know. So, all of those pieces kind of came together at once. So, you know, I did old people's luncheon, I did photography for them, did their programs and all these other things. This all happened in one month. That part, the school newspaper reached out to me and did an interview and they put it in a newspaper and they posted my photos. Another group of people for Art Equals Opportunity that they work in a--in the San Diego area using art to help students, you know, learn the lessons of English, you know, history, science, and everything. But using the conduit of art, they posted me on their website. All of this happened in the same month. And then you walk in, you know? And your coworker sees the work and then we meet to do this. And all, all of this just happened at once. That's just that. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Then the last, last week I submitted some of these photos to, ah, Lycoming College. It’s in, uh, Pennsylvania. It’s in Williamsport, Pennsylvania. And there was this huge national search for all Black art for their exhibit called “Blurred Expectations.” That’s open now. It just opened today. Everybody across the country submitted. Somebody that knew me said, “Hey, you should submit your stuff to this.” I submitted it. Boom, immediately. They was like, “Yes, it’s in.” So, once this exhibit ended here, the very next day, I had to take it down and ship it. Visintaier: Yeah. Northington: Uh, to Williamsport, Pennsylvania. And it’s up right now in their exhibit. And then ASI, the ASI student government here, just accepted one of my pieces for that art project. So, within two months, this semester, all of the work I've been doing for years, you know? Some of this book is 2017. This book is 2018., you know? And I'm currently doing--so these things are year, two years old, after I watch all of my, you know, fellow students be recognized. All of mine is coming right here in two months. So that's, you know, that's been a big change. So. Visintainer: Yeah. Well, congratulations. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: How long is the exhibition in Virginia up for? Northington: Until the beginning of February. So, they got a couple of months. Yeah. I think it’s right at two and a half months. Something like that. Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: No, the end of November. All of December. All of January. Yeah. So, it's right at like two and a half months. Think they got like eight week-- Visintainer: (both talking at once) Is there going to— Northington: (both talking at once) --be six week, ten weeks, something like that. Visintainer: Is there going to be a digital component to it? Northington: Well, they've been posting videos and uh, you know, tagging all of the artists in it and everything like that. And they made--they made a social media page, they made an Instagram page. So that's how everybody's keeping up who's not in their area at that school. And it's like a huge four-year private institution. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: That costs like ten times as much as this school to go to. So, it’s-- and it was a national search. So, it's-- it is, it is good to add to, ah, you know, to a resume for something like that. So, I mean (laughs). Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: You know, it's like on my way out the door, I have all these résumé items now that didn't exist before, you know? Even though I've done so much work on this campus going unrecognized, but it's now, it's now all happening right now at the perfect time. So. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: I can appreciate that. So, uh, and I also wanted to mention all the supporters that helped over this time. So, Miss Ariel Stevenson from the Office of Inclusive Excellence. Uh, Mrs. Marilyn McWilliams, Office of Inclusive Excellence, Dr. Sharon Elise, you know? These are people who supported me from the beginning to now. No holds barred, you know? They even got a little flack, you know, at times, because I'm not as accepted as everybody else. So, you know, they've asked me to do different projects on campus. They supported, they came to all of the events, you know? We established another club on campus: The Black SistaHood to encompass all these elements I spoke about, about photography, my photography, Black-specific, and how it assist in helping us get through this society and try to make some things positive where we turn that into a student club and organization. So, that's why I have this. That's why wore this sweater for this interview. So no, and this is more pushing love for people, you know? Loving each other, breaking through some of these stereotypes and turning these negatives into positives and becoming, you know, great people in life. So, and a lot of that's going to be exemplified in the third book, in the, “WE ARE” book, you know? So, uh, been a part of Black Student Union since I've been here, you know? Some--there was some people in the sorority, Black sorority and Black fraternity, Sigma Gamma and Omega Psi Phi, a few, there's a few individuals that supported me and helped as well. And then the Black Student Center itself has been the hub for all of this. So once that was established and created, it allowed me a centered space because before I had to walk around the entire campus, like loop every building and hang out during every U-hour, whether I had class or not. And just try to like find people. So that's what I had to do before. And it's like the people out here right now, “Are you registered to vote? Are you registered to vote?” I was one of those people. With my camera and no book because the book is not made yet. So, I'm out here with a printed sheet of paper. “Hey, would you like to take a photo for my project?” And this-- and that was not as, you know, as presenting, you know, as to walk up with an already made book. So, once I got the first book, I got more yeses. Once I had two books, I got--you know, so the yeses come a lot easier. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: So, having the, the Black Student Center here, I get the crowd now. So now I have more people to choose from and it's just so much easier to do it now than it was, you know, in 2016, when I started the first book. So, it's a lot easier now. So, that may--that may be it. And uh, as long as you using the terminology &quot ; Black,” because I don't, I don't use “African American” or “people of color.” Northington talks about feeling invisible among his own classmates at CSUSM. At the time of the interview, however, Northington began receiving recognition for his work, and he discusses being invited to events, working with Associated Students, Inc (ASI), and exhibiting his work at Lycoming College. Art exhibitions ; Associated Students Incorporated ; Black Student Center ; Black Student Union ; California State University San Marcos ; Lycoming College, Williamsport, Pa. ; Omega Psi Phi Fraternity ; Photography ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Sigma Gamma Rho Sorority ; students ; The Black SistaHood 4588 Conclusion/ Current CSUSM projects Visintainer: Yeah Northington: So, while y'all printing this, any, any printing that has to be done uh-- Vistintainer: I'll, I'll send you any verbiage that we do. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: And then that way you can look it over and-- Northington: Okay, okay. Visintainer: Correct me, if I'm making a mistake. Northington: (laughs) Well, you know, it's not a mistake for other people, but for me that, you know, it just doesn't work for me. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: So, that might be it. And then shout out to the, the people who are coming behind me, you know, Shamar. We got (unintelligible) Williams. She's been working with me the most here. So, she's a senior now and she's in my same major field: visual performing arts. And she's helped a lot over the last year because I've been just forcing her and pushing her to do her photos, to do her artwork, you know? And then as I mentioned with Gordon Parks, this isn't one element, like I told you before, the photo is just one thing that I've done on this campus. So, I make these shirts, I make these logos, these designs, you know? So, all of the BSU gear you've seen, all of the Black Student Center gear you've seen for the most part, all the Black SistaHood, Black Brotherhood, you know, Transitions Collective. I did some logos for them. Project Rebound, I'm designing a logo for them right now. So, there's so many elements to the artwork that I produced on campus. So, and I've done about four or five, like a components--we just saw the art exhibit. But then I already did two exhibits here in the library and we're working on the third with the art department right now on sustainability. So, I have an art project, uh, a water art project that's going to be in sustainability, you know? If that happens in the spring, that's still talking about that. I did a sustainability project with ASI about straws. And this was right before they banned straws on this campus. We were trying to make a push to get rid of straws and how this affected the aquatic life. And we, you know, we created like a sea turtle with a straw in his mouth and shows how this kind of messes them up. So, uh, spent a lot of things like that on campus. So, I just want to make sure it's not just photography. Visintainer: Sure. Northington: I would say it's art and I'm sure you understand that it's art and, but this part is the photography, but there's so much more that I've been a part of on campus than that. And now I want the next group of people like Shamar to come along and continue it. Because if I--you know, once I leave it's over, it shouldn't be, it shouldn't end. It should be fifteen, twenty more people. So, I try to do my part and help them learn the right avenues, meet some people, you know? That's why I asked them to come and be here and to see a different process, you know? &quot ; Okay, this is where I started. And then I could do this, this, this, this, this.” They can do the same thing I'm doing, you know? It's not, it's not that special. You have to do the work, you know? You have your vision, you have what, your passion and then you need to do the work. And you'll get everything that you want out of it. So. And that's, that's probably all I got right there. Visintainer: Alright. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: Well, thank you, Jake. Northington: (both talking at once) No problem. Visintainer: (talking at once) I really appreciate you coming by and chatting with us. Northington: Make sure we see, uh- Visintainer: Yes. Northington: The women that I love. And then the men’s book. And the third book will be coming soon. Visintainer: Alright. Northington: Alright. Visintainer: Thank you, sir. Jake Northington concludes the interview by acknowledging his mentees. He also discusses other projects he is involved with on campus, such as designing shirts and logos for Black student organizations, curating exhibits in the library, and working on sustainability initiatives with ASI and the art department. Associated Students Incorporated ; Black Brotherhood ; Black Student Center ; Black Student Union ; California State University San Marcos ; Photography ; Project Rebound ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Students ; Sustainability ; The Black SistaHood ; Transitions Collective Oral history Jake Northington is a California State University San Marcos alumnus. He graduated with his degree in Photography in 2019. In this interview, Jake discusses his artistic influences, the importance of Black representation in his photography, and his involvement in CSUSM’s Black Student Center and the Black SistaHood. Sean Visintainer: This is Sean Visintainer and I&#039 ; m interviewing Jake Northington as part of the Cal State San Marcos University Archive&#039 ; s Oral History Project. The interview took place on Friday, November 22nd, 2019 at the University Library, California State University San Marcos. Jake, thank you very much for talking with us today. I thought we&#039 ; d start off by talking about some of your formative years, especially how they relate to your passion for photography. So, I wanted to ask you a few questions about your childhood and early adult life. And I wanted to start off just by asking, where were you born? Jake Northington: That I don&#039 ; t know the answer to. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, I grew up as an orphan and I lived in many cities, many states. Uh, I&#039 ; ve seen a couple of birth certificates. So, not really sure, but, I grew up in East St. Louis, Illinois. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: That&#039 ; s why I grew up. Visintainer: So you grew up in East St. Louis. Was there any ways in which your childhood or your upbringing influenced your photography? Northington: Uh, yes. I would say yes. You know, uh, if you&#039 ; ve ever heard of a guy by the name of Gordon Parks. So throughout the fifties and sixties, he photographed the civil rights movement and a lot of activists socially. So, seeing those type of pictures and watching movies produced by Spike Lee and other people through Black films, they would use a lot of still shots to enter into the movie or to exit out of the movie. So, the beginning and the ending to bookcase the movies, they would show a lot of still shots from Gordon Parks. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: You know, so that was probably the first time I saw images like that and the images Gordon Parks takes in particular of Black people living everyday life, you know? So, and that introduced me to other photographers that particularly took pictures of Black people that you would never see that I wouldn&#039 ; t see in magazines or on TV or anything like that. So. Visintainer: And when you say he took pictures of Black people living everyday life, are there any images that you recall that really stand out to you? Northington: Yes. Uh, he has a picture of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King smiling together at a banquet function. And it is like [19]66 or [19]67. And these are two people that have polarizing views of what Black people should do in America socially. So, you have one guy who wants to fully work with the system and you have one guy who wants to fully oppose the system. So, you have two different dynamics at play from the same, uh, atmosphere from the same starting point growing up at the same time yet they have two different ways of going about it. And then you see these people cordial and friendly. So that&#039 ; s an amazing picture for people in the Black community to see that you can have opposing views and still work for the same progression of your people. So. Visintainer: Okay. Thank you. Did he take pictures as well of less famous Black people? Northington: Yes. Yes, because that&#039 ; s, again, the start. So, from the research, it seems that he took a lot of pictures of jazz musicians. He even did short films himself, you know? So it was all encompassing. He became more famous for the photography, but he also did films. I believe he wrote a book as well. And, uh, so it&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s a little, you know, all-encompassing to produce an entire artwork with the varying degrees and various wrinkles. So, it&#039 ; s not just one avenue and that&#039 ; s kind of the way I take my artwork, because photography&#039 ; s just one element of it. I didn&#039 ; t start off taking pictures. I started off drawing pictures. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, I draw still and that&#039 ; s still the basis of it all is drawing. So, I would consider taking pictures, just drawing with the camera. Visintainer: Alright. So when did you make the transition from drawing into photography? Northington: Just three years ago, in one class here at this school. I took a--it&#039 ; s a digital photography class taught by Nancy diBenedetto. She&#039 ; s in the Navy and she was an adjunct professor at that moment. I don&#039 ; t know if that may be in her second or third year teaching here. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, in, uh, she thought I took pretty good pictures. So she gave me a few pointers. She kind of showed us a lot of stuff in the class. You know, we did so many field trips to go to different arenas. We went to farms, we went to parks and, you know, on campus and she put us everywhere. And then we went to see an photography exhibit downtown at Balboa Park they had a photography exhibit and the whole class had to go there. So, to see the photos you take and then be able to compare them to professional photography. It gives you, you know, something to look for or it allows you to see things you could correct yourself, you know? So, and that&#039 ; s how I kind of see photography, you making your own corrections, you know? And then if you&#039 ; re satisfied, then it&#039 ; s a good photo for you. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Because they can all be looked at so differently. So, that&#039 ; s how hard is. Visintainer: Was it intimidating when you first started out comparing yourself to people in exhibitions? Northington: Not at all, not at all because I&#039 ; m a person that always went to art museums. I went to plenty of exhibitions prior to this class, you know? Art is my whole world. So, I see everything as art: cars, clothes, shoes, a pencil, you know? I used to play with my mechanical pencils and take them apart, put them back together to see how it was put together, why they chose these colors, why they have the writing on it, you know? And for me, all of that is art because somebody with an artistic mind had to design your mechanical pencil, your eraser, your--your steering wheel on your car. So, it all plays a part. So, I wouldn&#039 ; t consider my stuff in a comparison measure to be less than it&#039 ; s just, this is the way I see it. That&#039 ; s the way they see it. There&#039 ; s two different eyes behind the camera. So, I wouldn&#039 ; t do that, but I&#039 ; d look at their work and see like, &quot ; Okay, there&#039 ; s more clarity here, there&#039 ; s more depth.&quot ; There&#039 ; s more layers to their photography versus me taking a picture of a person. And there&#039 ; s just a wall in the background. There&#039 ; s no layers. So, I would be able to get some type of a scope of these are other things that are possible with the photos and then talking about the mood of the person. Can I really see the mood? I got more of that from watching modeling shows, you know? Of how your eyes can give away a smile or your eyes can give away a frown without the facial expression. So, then I have to input that into the photo. And now I&#039 ; m trying to communicate that with the person in the photo to get the look I&#039 ; m looking for. So, you know, it&#039 ; s a little bit of elements all over the place to put it all together. Visintainer: Okay. And do you started off with drawing, so I&#039 ; m assuming that your experience and your learning as you started off with drawing, transferred into photography pretty well as well, but I was curious, were there any specific lessons or techniques that you took from your background in drawing and art that transferred directly into photography? Northington: Yes. The biggest thing I would say is filling up the space. So, before I started taking pictures, I would see a lot of people take pictures on social media and all these other things. I&#039 ; m not a picture person myself. So, I don&#039 ; t just sit down and take pictures of myself or other people. I didn&#039 ; t-- I never did that, but I would do it mentally. So, you know, and you would see a picture or a background mentally before I even had the camera. So, I&#039 ; m already doing it in my head. And then, uh, you know, people would, most people do it. They go, &quot ; Oh, that&#039 ; s a nice sunset.&quot ; Or, &quot ; Look at those mountains.&quot ; You&#039 ; re taking a visual picture in your head, you know, and this is why they can sell their painting at Marshalls. You go to Marshalls and you pick up the painting of the canvas of the Carlsbad beach area or the pier in Oceanside. You can sell that because it&#039 ; s a nice visual and you just capture that. And then, uh, I think everybody does that to a different degree. So again, picking up the camera, I&#039 ; ve already had that exercise in my mind. So, from drawing, I got filling up the picture because I started drawing cartoons. So now I come in class and I&#039 ; m taking art class. The professor would say, &quot ; You have to fill up the background, it&#039 ; s empty,&quot ; you know? You make it too one-dimensional or two-dimensional with no layers. You want to make it pop. You want to make it stand out. You want--so you need to add three, four, five, ten dimensions, whatever. Keep adding layers. So, filling up the whole sheet of paper and making an entire scene is what I took over to the photography side from, from drawing. Visintainer: Okay. And that&#039 ; s interesting. And when you mentioned cartoons, especially, so when I think of cartoons, I think of panels. Northington: Yes. Vistintainer: And I think of you know, word balloons and things that do fill up a panel there. Um, but oftentimes there&#039 ; s real kind of blank or not defined backgrounds. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Do you try to do something similar with your portraiture, especially? Or do you utilize the backgrounds, uh, in a way that would be maybe different from how--? Northington: I would say it&#039 ; s both and it all depends on the intent of that photo. So, if the intent of that photo includes the background, then I&#039 ; ll make the black background a little more apparent and then if it doesn&#039 ; t, then you kind of shoot an aperture mode to, you know, to fizzle out the background, you know? And that&#039 ; s like a new app on everybody&#039 ; s phone, everybody&#039 ; s shooting in portrait mode on their, on their iPhone and it&#039 ; ll fuzz out the background, you know? So that&#039 ; s, if that&#039 ; s necessary for what I&#039 ; m trying to get across then yes. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: If not, I&#039 ; ll really include the background, you know? Specifically with the photos you&#039 ; ve seen with the sunlight actually being included in the background though, it&#039 ; s ninety-three million miles away so they say. Visintainer: Alright. Um, I think we&#039 ; ve already covered a little bit about your instruction with tutoring, or tutoring that you had as well as your background in art. So, I kind of wanted to move on and ask you kind of in a reverse question, have you taken on any students or mentees yourself? Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Or in, so what advice did you give them? Northington: The same advice I get. And you know, one of the bigger things that probably the number one piece of advice I got from Nancy diBenedetto is just keep taking pictures. You have to make all the mistakes over and over and over and over and over and over. And then next year and I take ten thousand more pictures. I&#039 ; m comparing my pictures now to my pictures, you know? And that&#039 ; s an easier fix and it allows you to grow within yourself versus I&#039 ; m going to compare my pictures to somebody that&#039 ; s already in the magazine shooting for Getty Photos. You don&#039 ; t want to, you know, that&#039 ; s a big jump and you may never get there. And then understanding how much equipment plays a role. You could shoot with a, you know, a Polaroid camera from some convenience store that you got from CVS versus shooting with a $10,000 camera, you know, from Best Buy. That same person is going to produce a different quality of photo just from the equipment alone. So, learning that, you know, uh, learning, setting the background, and implanting the person versus trying to take the person and implant the background, you know? That was a big thing I learned too. So, that&#039 ; s something I teach some people. I have about four or five right now, just picked up a new guy, Shamar. So, I got about four or five students here at school that I kind of help out and assist with all the things that I&#039 ; ve been told. And then I try to help them just develop their own way, you know? Don&#039 ; t take pictures like me, take pictures like you, you know? Don&#039 ; t become a copycat. You see what you saw in it. And I&#039 ; ll just try to help with, you know, technical things, things that may stand out to make this possibly not as good of a picture. But I can&#039 ; t help you with what you saw, what you see, what you want to produce. I don&#039 ; t want to touch that because that&#039 ; s for you. Visintainer: Okay. There were a couple things I wanted to come back to. Um, one of them is you mentioned you got to make the same mistakes over and over and over. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some mistakes in photography that you made over and over and over before realizing--? Northington: Lighting. Visintainer: Lighting? Northington: Lighting. Uh, there&#039 ; s so many small things. There may be twenty-five or thirty things you have to do before you take a picture. And if you forget one of them, you&#039 ; ll be mad once you go to editing, you know? You walk outside, the sunlight is in one space in the sky. If you forget that and throw it out of your mind, then you&#039 ; re going to have a bunch of dark shadows on everybody&#039 ; s face. So, unless that was what you was exactly trying to do, then you kind of threw a lot of your pictures off. You want the light on them, you know. Learning the red, the orange and the blue and the white lights, you know, using the application on your actual camera, the white balance, you know, that&#039 ; s something that I didn&#039 ; t even pay attention to. Even though Nancy taught us in class, I spent a lot of months not using my white balance and you&#039 ; ll get a yellowish undertone to people&#039 ; s skin and the colors scheme will be off. And now in editing, you have to go through and try to mute all that yellowish and greenish because you didn&#039 ; t do a proper white balance, you know? So stuff like that, I had to waste a bunch of photos and SD cards because I didn&#039 ; t, you know, take that into account. So where are my light source come from? Having enough light for the individual. Focus--my focus points, you know, the different variations you could, adjust your camera to, you know? Shooting in portrait or shooting in, you know, a fast pace or a slow pace. Understanding that, uh, your camera only captures so much depending on the lens. So, if I have a $700 lens, I could do a little bit more than that standard lens you come with, but I have a $2,000 lens I can do even a little bit more. It allows for even more mistakes because that vibration control works a lot better in the $2,000 lens than it does in that standard lens you get. So, understanding all of those things before I even take the photo. Using a tripod to take photos versus handheld, because nobody can sit still, you have a heartbeat, your body can&#039 ; t sit still. You have to hold your breath and pause everything. You know, that&#039 ; s just like, you know? Anybody that does weaponry, you learn the same thing. When you have to shoot a rifle on a range, you have to hold your breath, squeeze in between your breath, because that&#039 ; s the only still you&#039 ; re going to get. It&#039 ; s the same thing. I think that&#039 ; s what you call it, &quot ; shooting with the camera,&quot ; cause yeah, it&#039 ; s some of the same techniques. So, anybody that shoots rifles, it&#039 ; s kind of the similar techniques. For putting it&#039 ; s a similar technique. So, shooting free throws, similar technique, you know, those positions, you have to pause that breath. So, all of those things at once before you even take the picture, if you rush through it, you just wasted some time. I had to do it. And then I look back at my photos from the beginning. Because I even have a book that&#039 ; s not out for anybody to see because it&#039 ; s a book of mistakes, you know? And I keep it and I have it in my room and I look at it from time to time. I can&#039 ; t--this is where it started, you know? A lot of blown out pictures because it&#039 ; s too much light, a lot of yellow skin because no white balance, a lot of blurry pictures because my arm is moving too much. And I have to keep it to look at my mistakes to remind myself, to keep all of these things in mind before I shoot the picture. So, you know, that&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s a part of it and it&#039 ; s--it&#039 ; s needed. Visintainer: Yeah. Do you keep all of your photos that you take? Northington: Yes. So, I have quite a few hard drives so, and the only thing I don&#039 ; t like is they usually last, you know, four or five years and you got to switch them up again. Don&#039 ; t like that, but you know, because you have to keep paying for that over and over and over, but yeah, you should. I would tell people to keep them all because if you get rid of your mistakes, you can&#039 ; t see them. It&#039 ; s hard to improve like that. So, unless you&#039 ; re always going to have a teacher right ahead of you constantly doing, you know. So it&#039 ; s hard to self-improve without a constant teacher or a constant reminder of the things you need to work on. So, and I would employ people to do that on their own by always having a teacher because you&#039 ; re being guided a little too much. Take your own steps. So. Visintainer: I think that&#039 ; s good advice. There was another thing I wanted to come back to and that was, you mentioned importing your subjects into your backgrounds. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: And forgive me if I&#039 ; m not phrasing exactly how you did. And I thought that was really interesting because you do portraiture, you go out, you look for people that I assume that are, that you want to have that are subjects. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: So, I wanted to ask you a little bit about the process of how you choose your subjects. Northington: (laughs) Yeah. Visintainer: And then I guess the follow up, you know, beyond the process of how you choose your subjects, then how do you insert them into the backgrounds? Do you choose your backgrounds and look for a subject or, what do you do? Northington: I don&#039 ; t even decide, it decides itself. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, just being a student, you have to walk around campus, you take enough classes, you&#039 ; ll go into every building on campus. So, been here almost four years now. So, I&#039 ; ve been in every building. As I&#039 ; m always walking, I&#039 ; m seeing these scenes, making mental notes. I want a picture right there. I want a picture right there. Mental note--it just built this bridge across the street. I need a picture right there from the bridge. So, you know, and there&#039 ; s a lot of tall buildings here. So, it gives for a lot of angles. A lot of birds-eye-views and worms-eye-views. So, it is a lot, it&#039 ; s enough layers here, even in a compact campus. So, all of those backgrounds are constantly piling up. So now I have all these backgrounds. Now it&#039 ; s about the people. Who do I want to use for the next photo? It&#039 ; s all that random, you know, but I don&#039 ; t want anybody too excited. I prefer a person who is on the edge of saying &quot ; No,&quot ; but they&#039 ; ll do it anyway. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: That&#039 ; s what I want. I don&#039 ; t want somebody that, &quot ; Oh, I take a thousand pictures for social media every day.&quot ; No, they usually are too excited, too much to calm down. That&#039 ; s just been what I&#039 ; ve seen just from taking pictures for three years. People that are over excited to take photos, it&#039 ; s usually for me. Other people may be different, but for me it&#039 ; s more difficult to get them to the look, the feel and the expression that I need for the photo. And that photo shoot would last two hours. When I could have got the picture in seven minutes with a person that&#039 ; s more calm and mundane and melancholy. We can get the photo in seven minutes and then now I can spend thirty minutes getting a bunch of photos to use for later. So that&#039 ; s more conducive for me. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, and I particularly want people who have never seen. So, the invisible people is what I want. Melancholy, invisible. That&#039 ; s the people I want: the unseen. You know, people walk around every day and pretend like homeless people are not standing on the street with a sign asking for water or food. Yet, they&#039 ; re walking a dog, picking up behind a dog, feeding the dog and walk right past a homeless human being, you know? So, we see this every day in society. So, the unseen get no support, no help, you know? They don&#039 ; t get to smile. They don&#039 ; t get to feel good about themselves, you know? We can change that. So that&#039 ; s a part of the social activism of my work. I want the people who are less recognized, the people who may then have such a good time in middle school or high school, got picked on. Maybe wasn&#039 ; t as tall as everybody else. Not as muscular, not as attractive, not as whatever, you know, &quot ; -ism&quot ; you want to use. Those people should be recognized, because everybody should be included. So, there&#039 ; s no popularity contest with my photos. I&#039 ; ve turned down more people than most. Because people that ask me to take their photos, it&#039 ; s probably ninety-seven percent time, it&#039 ; s a &quot ; No.&quot ; I say &quot ; no&quot ; every week. So (laughs). Visintainer: When do you say &quot ; yes&quot ; when somebody asks you to? Northington: If it&#039 ; s like a social, like, situation as I&#039 ; m graduating? Okay. That&#039 ; s a necessary-- to capture this moment. You know, [if] I&#039 ; m having a birthday party, you know, something like that. People celebrate different, you know, different holidays and stuff like that. So, those are understood situations. But when it&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Oh, can you take pictures of me? Can you take?&quot ; -- because it&#039 ; s a lot of that. You know, people are doing that with phones every day. But when they find out somebody has a camera and oh, you take pictures a little, you know, on a little higher level than a camera phone. &quot ; Oh, can you get these pictures of me for this or for this?&quot ; you know, I get some of the same people over and over and over. Even after I&#039 ; ve taken pictures for them, they&#039 ; ll keep coming back for more and more and more. No, no, no. That&#039 ; s enough. You have a phone on your camera. That&#039 ; s enough. You know, because I believe you&#039 ; ve already accomplished what we needed to with the photos. You feel good about yourself, you know? And you&#039 ; re walking around elevated. Good. We made it happen. That&#039 ; s so that&#039 ; s enough for me. So, I don&#039 ; t need to entertain that anymore. So, we trying to pick up the people who feel a little, you know, more lowly about themselves. Pick those people up. Visintainer: So, one of the things that I think separates beyond skill level, obviously that separates art and photography from say more commercial enterprises, like, you know, capturing a wedding or something like that is a philosophy or a thought process-- Northington: (both talking at once) Yes. Visintainer: (both talking at once) --behind the production of the art. And you&#039 ; ve talked a little bit about, um, about how you want to make sure that the people that are unseen are seen. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: But I was curious if there&#039 ; s other philosophies that you take into the production of your art as well? Northington: Yes. My photography is particularly for Black people. So, it does two things. It&#039 ; s force feeds Black images, Black positive images into everybody&#039 ; s purview. I&#039 ; m going to force feed it. There&#039 ; s something--this comes back to just being a kid and I will walk in Walmart with everybody else that goes to Walmart since they&#039 ; re billions and billions of dollars every year. You walk in Walmart and, and maybe you just need a picture frame because you and your family just had a family reunion or your grandmother&#039 ; s birthday was celebrated, and you go pick up this picture frame and the family in the picture frame stock photo never looks like me. Ever. So, that&#039 ; s the standard. And then, you know, you play soccer, or me? I played tennis growing up and we win a little trophy and the figurine on top of the trophy is never me. It&#039 ; s never my people. And then let&#039 ; s say you fall in love with somebody, you get married and you go to the place to order your wedding cake. And you have to specially order the Black figurines and you wait a few weeks for it to come in the mail because everything in the store that&#039 ; s standard is not me. It&#039 ; s not my people. So, you can go across all media, all aspects of society. And the standard is one group. Everybody else becomes, you know? Well, they get to choose if they include you or not. So, what&#039 ; s happened for many commercials, many movies? We have this idea of the token, we&#039 ; ll insert one, you know, non-white person that could be anybody, you know? They may insert one Asian, one Latino, or one Black person, Disney movies do it all the time. Disney TV shows do it all the time. If you&#039 ; ve ever seen South Park, they have a character called Token and he has a big &quot ; T&quot ; on his t-shirt and it&#039 ; s a Black kid that lives in South Park, Colorado amongst all of the other white kids. You know? This is a real thing in life and in a place particularly like San Marcos, this is not a Black city. It&#039 ; s not a Black area, you know? So, we have a lot of Black students here who were the one in their entire group of friends and, you know, sports, anything, they were involved in. So they&#039 ; re not the standard. So going back to Walmart, let me go get, you know, some stuff, some products for my hair. And there&#039 ; s an aisle called an &quot ; ethnic hair aisle&quot ; in Walmart. One aisle, two or three shells with hair products that&#039 ; s supposed to be for me. And then there&#039 ; s one, two, three, four, five whole aisles for the &quot ; standard&quot ; people. So, you know, the photography or the standard of people can be influenced by these things. So, you can learn to understand that you&#039 ; re not included by growing up like that. And those are just a few aspects, you know? Cartoons, whatever--toys, everything. A lot of little Black girls were getting little baby doll toys or Barbies or whatever. And it doesn&#039 ; t look like them. So, these things can help pull away at yourself, how you feel about yourself, how you view your skin, your hair, you know, your people in America. It could pull away and produce these negative aspects. And then you see yourself in film and you&#039 ; re always a drug dealer, a crack head, a prostitute, on welfare. Forever. So much so that a movie like the Marvel Black Panther movie makes a billion dollars and it automatically changes so many people&#039 ; s view. And it automatically brings up the feeling of a group of Black people. Or, 2008, when Barack Obama comes into office, you see the spiritual uplift of a bunch of Black people because of representation. And then he has so many books out between him and his wife. They produce different books. There&#039 ; s so much photography of them. There&#039 ; s so many art pieces that were made because they came into the office, you know? There&#039 ; s a there&#039 ; s a professional painter that did a huge piece on Michelle Obama. That&#039 ; s famous all throughout social media, just for the representation. So, propaganda can be positive or negative. So, I&#039 ; ll take my photography to create some more, just add to the positive end. So, I feel like anybody can do that. If you have a camera phone in your hand, everybody can do that. So, I just choose to be on the more positive end because all of my life has only been negative for my people through film, photography, or otherwise, you know? Just pull up any school website and look at the photos they use for the school website. I almost never see my people in any realm, any aspect. Just Google any business, you know? There became a trend that you would only see Black people in McDonald&#039 ; s commercials and Cadillac commercials. And that&#039 ; s been the trend for like thirty years. And then, you know, Black History Month comes up and then you&#039 ; ll see somebody get inputted somewhere else, you know? Or like, the NBA is like eighty, eighty-five percent Black, but then during Black History Month, they have NBA Black history t-shirts that everybody in the NBA has to wear. So, you&#039 ; ll get that one time and then everything else is standard, you know, stuff like that. So, that&#039 ; s the way I look at it. I see it that way. I go, &quot ; Okay, how can we improve this?&quot ; I can put out more positive Black images. So, I will. So, I go look for people who may be down on themself, who may be just, &quot ; I&#039 ; m just going to hide in the shadows,&quot ; or, &quot ; I&#039 ; m unseen,&quot ; you know? That&#039 ; s the people I would prefer if I--if they&#039 ; re willing to be a part of it. And then just, you know, gradually go up and up and up. And then when we get too far to somebody&#039 ; s just over-- &quot ; Okay, it&#039 ; s enough.&quot ; So, I&#039 ; m just trying to get that aspect. That&#039 ; s not really, picked out and use and you know, uh, it could be commercial art. It could be just, you know? Fine art, any way you want to take it, but these things are going to last forever. So that&#039 ; s kind of the thought process behind the book. The photo books. They last forever. You can look back at this when you have kids and the grandkids and this event happened, you know? It happened. You have these yearbooks in high school. People always look back at the yearbooks, you know? A lot of grandmothers used to have this big photo album on a coffee table and you come to your grandmother&#039 ; s house and look at all these photos, you know? So, since those were a part of my life, this was a part of the process. Like, okay, I could put all that together and let&#039 ; s just tell a story with this book. And then, I use the book and find a social issue that affects Black people. So, and let&#039 ; s try to correct that social issue through photography, using the Black students here and then give them these photos. And I gave many of them the books that are in the books. Now they get to say they&#039 ; ve been a part of this. They get to know. Their family gets to know. So, these pictures get to now reverberate through the Black community. Much like if you saw, you know, Michelle and Barack Obama walk across the stage 2008. So, it gives some type of spiritual upliftment. You feel proud of yourself and who you are, versus comparing yourself to the stock photo in the picture frame at Walmart. Visintainer: Yeah. So, you talked a little bit about representation right now, and then we&#039 ; ve talked in the past about representation. And this is not necessarily a photography-related question, but I was curious, as a person of color, when you&#039 ; re out in the world and you don&#039 ; t see representation all around you, what are the kind of the kind of self-care approaches that you take to remain positive in an environment where there&#039 ; s an absence? Northington: Well, just the phrase you just use that I don&#039 ; t use myself. &quot ; Person of color&quot ; is not in identifiable nomenclature for me or how I use for my people. You have notion such as &quot ; African American.&quot ; That&#039 ; s not--that&#039 ; s not for me to use. That&#039 ; s for other people. That&#039 ; s only been around nineteen years. U.S. census in a year 2000 added &quot ; African American&quot ; as an identifying, you know, political term to be used. That didn&#039 ; t exist before then. So, I did a project in the library about that, you know, that we did here. And I showed how the nomenclature of Black people have changed since 1790 census to today. So, there&#039 ; s been, you know, quite a few terms and phrases. So, the phrase that is currently used now is &quot ; people of color.&quot ; I don&#039 ; t use that because you kind of amalgamate everybody into a group and that can be good in certain aspects. But for me, that adds more negative-- Visintainer: Okay. Northington: --For Black people, because we get away from talking about Black issues, and Black people by calling all issues of non-whites people of color issues. So, and a lot of these things need to be particular because people of color don&#039 ; t get kicked out of high school for their hair. People of color are not being murdered at this such high rate by the police on TV. So that&#039 ; s why I can&#039 ; t use a term like that or a phrase like that. But I do understand why people use it and then it gets, you know, it gets, you used a lot, but I--I can&#039 ; t use those terms because what affects Black people particularly is not a people of color issue, you know? People of color in hair that&#039 ; s, you know, it&#039 ; s such a different thing. So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: --You know, just try to keep it a little more positive. And, uh, so, going back to your question. I would say, the women&#039 ; s book in particular, the main issue was like, I just brought up, the hair. So, there&#039 ; s black kids getting kicked out of school by the thousands every single year, just for having their natural hair, because my hair grows as my hair is supposed to. Your hair grows as it&#039 ; s supposed to. How can this now be a factor in who can be in school and who can&#039 ; t? And who&#039 ; s unkept and who&#039 ; s not, you know? So, we have Supreme Court rulings on this. Many states have their own state&#039 ; s law and federal law doesn&#039 ; t include, you know, the Constitution has nothing about hair in it, you know? Because that was the standard of one group of people. So, hair wasn&#039 ; t an issue. So, we have a lot of state Supreme Court ruling and that led me to the focus of the first book I did on natural hair. So, in 2016, they had an Eleven Circuit Court Supreme Court ruling said employers could in fact discriminate against natural hairstyles. If they see it to be unfit, unkept, unprofessional. So, to even be allowed to do that legally, that&#039 ; s not a people of color issue, you know, that&#039 ; s Black-specific. So, I had to dive into that with the book. So, I went around campus and uh, just would just keep my eyes open for any Black people who just walked around freely with natural hairstyles, their natural hair all the way out, you know? Who may not believe in that &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to be clean cut because society told me to,&quot ; you know, my hair has to be cut off. Yet, I sit in class and see all these other races of people who get to enjoy their hair being as long as they choose to. And they&#039 ; re not assumed to be violent or thug or unkept, you know? So, you could walk around with a ponytail and it wouldn&#039 ; t be seen as anything other than hip. But I let my hair grow, and now society makes a direct connection from me and my natural hair to 1966 Black Panther Party. Just my natural hair alone, I get directly, &quot ; Oh, you like a Black Panther?&quot ; Why would they do that? You know why? Because the photography that existed in 1966, taking pictures of Black people in Black social movements, they all look like this with their natural hair, the men and the women have the same natural hair. So now, America, hasn&#039 ; t seen that since the sixties, thousands upon thousands. So, you had about twenty-five to twenty-eight million Black people at that point. And for a lot of them to just be walking around naturally, completely, like this, that&#039 ; s a different thing. Because it&#039 ; s like, this group is very different than this group. And it&#039 ; s almost like a highlighter, a notify, you know? And at this point, as you go to the &quot ; people of color&quot ; term, the term that was used at this point was &quot ; Afro-American.&quot ; It&#039 ; s in literature. It&#039 ; s all over the place at this time. It&#039 ; s in movies, everywhere. Interviews everything. Because it notified the hair. Afro-American. Well, that since passed and a lot of people went into different hairstyles and different things have changed. So much so that when now I exist, the only correlation is 1966 through the sixties and early seventies is Black Panther Party. So, I get that every day. Can I help change that? Yes. With the book, with the pictures. Particularly discussing hair and how my hair has to always be political. My hair has to always have a law. My hair has to always fit into the scheme of the society as they make the rules. So, we had to fully discuss this hair regulation policy, because it doesn&#039 ; t just exist with that one employer for that one Supreme Court rule in an Eleven Circuit Court. This happens at every, it happens here. It happens when I go to job interviews, you know, I&#039 ; ve been asked to cut my hair before and I just didn&#039 ; t work at that place, you know? It&#039 ; s a little different for me. What if I wanted to get a job that requires hats like an officer or, you know, a firefighter, baseball player. The hats are not made for me and my hair. That hats are made for the &quot ; standard&quot ; American. You know, if your hair lays down in a particular pattern, then a hat doesn&#039 ; t change anything as far as your hair. Well, if I were a size seven hat with my hair low, that changes with my hair longer. It may not change as much as you because your hair would press down and it wouldn&#039 ; t be, you know, wouldn&#039 ; t be messed up. Anything like that. Well, it&#039 ; s different for me or if I&#039 ; m the only sector of society, that&#039 ; s going to have such a significant difference in that manner. The rules didn&#039 ; t change for me and for Black people. So, just trying to help point out some of these things, you know, with the books and with the photography. So, that&#039 ; s why I said it can work in both ways. You&#039 ; re uplifting Black people and then you&#039 ; re throwing it in the face of everybody else. &quot ; Hey, this is who we are. This is what we look like. I&#039 ; m born this way,&quot ; you know? So, this is supposed to be the era of &quot ; inclusion.&quot ; That&#039 ; s one of the newest words being used in the last two or three summers. &quot ; Inclusivity.&quot ; &quot ; Equity.&quot ; And all of these things. Those sound good. And you know, people may have the best intent. But how inclusive are you? If you&#039 ; re asking me to cut my hair, how inclusive are you? If you accept Black people, when their hair is straight, you know, processed. You accept that version. But that same Black woman, if she comes with a hair natural, it&#039 ; s a problem. So much is a problem that many Black women get unrecognized when they come to work one week with their hair pressed and they come to work two or three months later with their hair like mine. &quot ; Oh, I thought we had a new coworker. I didn&#039 ; t recognize you.&quot ; You know, this happens every day. If I cut my hair right now, I guarantee you, I come to school next semester. Some people will--&quot ; Oh, I didn&#039 ; t realize that was you.&quot ; Because my face changed (laughs) due to my hair. You know, so, uh, being that our hair has seen is so negative and the negativity comes from the connection to the Black Power Movement throughout the sixties and seventies. So, one of the things, one of the greatest things is our bodies need to be seen as human and as positive. So, the photography about the hair includes that as well, you know? See us happy, we&#039 ; re on campus, we&#039 ; re students, you know, we&#039 ; re coworkers. You need to get used to seeing us in our natural form, how we are. So, the people who may hate or have a disdain for those images, that&#039 ; s a part of them seeing this as well. So, this is what it would do to people who are not Black and then uplift the people who are Black. So, we can kind of, you know, create some social change. So, you could be a little more uncomfortable with seeing a person that looks like me, because you&#039 ; ve seen it. So, if I&#039 ; m in a commercial, if I&#039 ; m in that standard photo at Walmart, if I&#039 ; m on the school website, you know. If my sister&#039 ; s here, my mother&#039 ; s on this. And we see Black people in films that are also teachers, that also work in the library, that also police officers. So, it becomes accepted. And now I don&#039 ; t have such a, you know, a shocking response. When I see a person like me. There&#039 ; s so many people are shocked by me walking around school. I&#039 ; m in elevators, going up steps with people. And I keep getting that. The startled response from so many students just because of my hair, that&#039 ; s it. So, we can help change some of these things. Visintainer: Um, to come back a little bit to people that are unseen. So, if you&#039 ; re looking for people that are on the verge of not being interested in being photographed and you&#039 ; re looking for people that are generally unseen. How do you go about convincing people to be seen? Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: If they&#039 ; re used to not being seen (Northington laughs), and maybe comfortable not being seen. Or maybe they&#039 ; re uncomfortable with it, but that&#039 ; s kind of what they expect? Northington: So, I mean, that becomes the work. So, it can&#039 ; t be easy. You know, if you want to do something easy, then I&#039 ; ll just take pictures of people who want to, you know? And then for me, that&#039 ; s not the right energy to go about it or to make the change. They want to be seen. Okay. Yeah. You know, then they&#039 ; re already showing themselves. So, it&#039 ; s not, to me, that&#039 ; s not a fix. So, now when dealing with a person that may be more reluctant to do that. It&#039 ; s not that I want to convince them. It&#039 ; s that I sit down and have the conversation. Let&#039 ; s think about ten years from now. If you make this decision, how will this affect you for ten years and ten years looking back, you know? Would you have been proud of this? You know, then I tell them my purpose for doing it, you know? Similar to some of these responses. Look at commercials, look at magazines. What do you involve yourself in on a daily basis? If you&#039 ; re watching your social media, what do the ads look like? What are your favorite films? What&#039 ; s your favorite music? So, look at the--already imagery of yourself. If you had the opportunity to make it positive, because, you know, there&#039 ; s so much talk about these people do this to us. This group oppresses us this way. Those are true. So, what if I&#039 ; m giving one small opportunity to go against that. To improve it? If my son, my daughter, my granddaughter, my great-granddaughter was able to see this great imagery of, you know, their great-grandfather or something. It uplifts them as a child. So, I can start that off from the beginning. And you are already fighting against some of the negativities against you from the beginning. So, what happens today? A lot of Black people are looking back to pictures of the Harlem Renaissance. Looking back at those, you know, Gordon Parks photos. This the, uh, what is this? Another woman, uh, [Carrie] Mae Weems, she--her photos as well. So, you have something to look back to something, to aspire to. All these images of Barack Obama, Michelle Obama. All these images of Jay-Z and Beyonce, all these, you know, you have these images to look forward to, to uplift you. You may even make some type of connection, and you can see a little bit of yourself in it, because it represents you a lot more than looking at the, uh, the Statue of Liberty or the Mount Rushmore, you know? Those are like things that are unattached to your culture or to your soul in a way, if you would see own people, you know, we have the Caesar Chavez statue on campus. Everybody probably generally understands that that&#039 ; s okay, it&#039 ; s a mark on the campus. What Caesar Chavez stands for, you know, the rights of migrant workers and all of those things. But then I would say there&#039 ; s another aspect of people who look at that in a different way than even I do. But in other peoples they see more self-representation, more our people work for something. And then there&#039 ; s a different connection. So, we can do that with statues. With imagery. So, I explain this to some of these people and then they make a decision off of that. Then some of them go, &quot ; Okay, you know what? I do want to do this.&quot ; And then they may have already told themselves they want to be seen, but they don&#039 ; t get the opportunity. They want to be included, but they don&#039 ; t get the opportunity, and they don&#039 ; t have the persona or the, you know, or the personality to kind of say, &quot ; Hey, you know, I like to take pictures and do this.&quot ; So, I get to now become the conduit for that. And then some of the people go, &quot ; No, that&#039 ; s not my arena.&quot ; And then I have to take that. But I&#039 ; d rather deal with it in that way than the person screaming. &quot ; Take pictures of me, take pictures of me.&quot ; So that&#039 ; s kind of how it goes. Visintainer: Thank you. Have you seen your kind of personal philosophy in relation to your art evolve over time? Northington: Yes. Yes. Uh, but the first idea of doing it from the hair perspective opened up so many other lanes, because then it goes, this is happening against Black people in society. So, let me walk down that and see how I can place that in images to where people can see the image and I don&#039 ; t have to put words on the paper, you know? Tell the story without putting the words on the paper. And then it opens up another lane, another lane. So, I would say the involvement, the evolving of it comes from the first stance of looking at the hair situation. The involvement came from that, and then it&#039 ; s just, this is happening, this is happening. Also, I&#039 ; m in sociology classes, you know, I&#039 ; m in a Black feminist thought class. Talk about Dr. Walkington. And I&#039 ; m in a Black communities class. Talk about Dr. Muhammad. So, we&#039 ; re talking about the aspects of Black immigration, the aspects of over sexual sexualizing Black women, you know? Things like this, more avenues. Now I can use that in the photography and help try to curve some of those negativities. So, it just continues to just go out and go out and go out. And more ideas are just constantly popping up. So, that would add to the evolving measure. And then these are open doors for me to take photography of so many other people, you know? So once the photos get posted online or other people post the photo, I took it in and tagged. Then now I&#039 ; ll get a message saying, &quot ; Hey, can you take pictures of me at my birthdays coming up? I have my 22nd birthday. Me and my friends, can you come take--&quot ; then that&#039 ; ll happen. And then from that, I had two different companies go, &quot ; Oh, hey, we have an event, uh, company that we constantly do events, ten or twenty a year. Are you available to take events for our-- take photos for our events?&quot ; So, I have one company I&#039 ; ve been taking event photos for three years and another one for a year. And then, so it just keeps going and going and going. And then that adds for a lot of practice. Because I&#039 ; m getting different lighting situations, indoor, outdoor, overhangs, you know, candlelit lights, you know? So everything&#039 ; s a little different. So, it allows for a lot of practice to do the actual photography that I&#039 ; m passionate in. So, that&#039 ; s kind of some of the involvement. Visintainer: Okay. So, you&#039 ; ve got a commercial aspect to what you&#039 ; re doing then. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: And you talk a little bit about how you utilize that to grow your personal art. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: What are some of the things that don&#039 ; t translate when you&#039 ; re doing commercial photography to your artistic side? Northington: Um, we&#039 ; re not really attacking any particular social issue when we&#039 ; re doing commercial art, so it&#039 ; s more, &quot ; Let&#039 ; s enjoy life.&quot ; The commercial art becomes more about enjoying life. Like, okay, it&#039 ; s the time to fight against, you know, injustices, it&#039 ; s the time to sit down and do your work and it&#039 ; s the time to enjoy life. So, and the commercial art tends to just, you know, live in that arena. Let&#039 ; s enjoy life, let&#039 ; s have fun. But that also still becomes a correction because it used to be illegal for Black people to get together and hang out, you know? You have the slave codes of Virginia, 1684, they have slave codes and you can&#039 ; t congregate, you know? South Carolina has some of the same slave codes and many of these things were supposed to be overturned and go out the window after the Civil War. Well, you know, those people still had jobs. So, whether the law changed or not, they still had jobs. So, they still kind of continue some of these practices. And this is where we see like a stop-and-frisk comes into play to where New York City police are growing up, stopping-and frisking can five or six Black dudes standing together. So, we can&#039 ; t even be together, you know? There used to be a time where you could buy a house and have a party. Well, since I&#039 ; ve been in California, those things seem to be illegal. You can&#039 ; t even have a party at your apartment. Can&#039 ; t have a party at your house. You can&#039 ; t even congregate and have fun. So now people are forced to go rent out, you know, spaces and hotels and ballrooms. You got to rent out of space, pay a few thousand dollars to get people, to show up and party and have fun and then still pay for parking and all these things. It wasn&#039 ; t like this in the nineties. In the nineties, you lived in a place that you pay rent. You can have a party. Well, those things are like illegal now. People just call the cops. You go, no partying allowed. You know, this is even on some paperwork when you go get an apartment: no parties. Some paperwork, for Homeowners Association of that house: no parties. So, I&#039 ; m an adult, I&#039 ; m a human, I can&#039 ; t party. Because I choose to. I have to go to a club. I have to rent out a ballroom, you know? So, for Black people in particular, we need to be able to enjoy life as well with all of these stressors, you need to be able to enjoy life. So, even though this is commercial art, for some of these companies, these people are having fun and are having fun together, which is something that&#039 ; s not promoted. They&#039 ; ll show us fighting together, but not so much of us having fun together. So, there&#039 ; s no balance of that. So, in that aspect of thinking, I get to help provide some balance to showing Black people, enjoying each other, having fun. And then go back home to their kids, their wives, their husbands, and their jobs and school and all of that. But they come together and congregate to have fun and we never get to see it. So. Visintainer: When it comes to your subjects for your photography, um, are there anything that you look for in particular? You&#039 ; ve mentioned that you look for people that are--I guess maybe, you&#039 ; ve already answered this. That you look for people that are unseen. You look for people that are reticent, to be photographed. But are there anything else that you look for in your subjects? Northington: Yes. I also look for Black community organizations or Black on-campus organizations. So, I&#039 ; ve taken pictures for the Black faculty and staff, you know, because they have to have it. You should have photos out there. The Black Student Union, the Black Student Center, you know? There&#039 ; s a Black fraternity here, Omega Psi Phi. Black sorority here, Sigma Gamma Rho. And I&#039 ; ve taken pictures for all of them because they should have the photos out there, you know? If we&#039 ; re not seen on campus and people pretend like we&#039 ; re not here. So, we&#039 ; re supposedly like 2.1, 2.2 percent of this campus. And you know, and that seems to be the trend all throughout the CSU, you know? There&#039 ; s maybe two: Dominguez Hills and Cal State Long Beach in L.A. They&#039 ; re in a particular area where there&#039 ; s a high concentration of Black people right there in L.A. So, they have a little higher of a number. The rest of the CSU is right around two percent, three percent. So, with that, we&#039 ; re not so much in a propaganda photography in videos at those campuses. Knowing that coming in, I want to particularly take pictures of these Black groups. So, I&#039 ; ll offer my services to all of these Black groups and take pictures of any events that they&#039 ; re doing, any tabling that they&#039 ; re doing and stuff like. So, I have done that here and that&#039 ; s a part of the focus, too. So, to make sure they&#039 ; re supported in that way and, you know, and they can continue on because other than that--because you do an event here and the process is you go to office communication or go to a newspaper you can request photographers to come. And then sometimes they come and they stay for two minutes, take one or two pictures and they leave. And then for me that&#039 ; s not enough, you know? They did their job, they did what they were supposed to do. They got the one or two pictures they&#039 ; re supposed to get and they left. So, they did what they&#039 ; re supposed to do. But for me, that&#039 ; s not enough. For us, it&#039 ; s not enough. Because we&#039 ; re not being represented properly. So, we need to change that. So, when they do their events and sometimes, you know, these different Black organizations ask me to come do the photography, I&#039 ; ll go do it. No charge, just do the event, edit the photos, put them out there. Even make some little slideshows of them and stuff like this. So, and that&#039 ; s led to me doing the old people&#039 ; s luncheon, some Halloween parties, and stuff like that on campus for even other organizations that are not Black particular. But this stuff now lasts forever. , it&#039 ; s amazing. This is 2019, but if somebody&#039 ; s not here, particularly taking pictures of Black people, none of this happened. Everybody&#039 ; s living off memories, you know? That&#039 ; s stuff that was done for people that graduated in [19]79 or [19]82 as a Black group of people. They&#039 ; re talking about the memories of what we went through in four or five years of college. How is that still a thing? Because if nobody&#039 ; s pointing them out and going, &quot ; We need to capture this on video on film,&quot ; that this happened, they did this, they did this, they did this, you know? The biggest thing here was when we got the Black students in the spring of 2017, and then you have three students who really made the biggest push. So, the ASI [Associated Students Incorporated (student government)] President at that time was Tiffany Boyd. Then you have Jamaéla Johnson and then you have Akilah Green. All three of them were ASI and they made a huge push for us to get the Black Student Center as we needed. And this was a time that all of these Black people were being shot on TV. And, so, this was a very important need for Black students on campus. So, with those three people, we had to make sure they got recognized. So, I took pictures of them. They came for the grand opening. I hope one day that their names and pictures are on the wall in the Center to get their proper due. If that didn&#039 ; t happen, and there&#039 ; s no pictures, it all goes away and there&#039 ; s a history forgotten. So, the photos become documentary automatically. Any photos of Black people almost automatically become a documentary and historical reference points. So that&#039 ; s another point of keeping all of my photos. When you ask if I keep them. I just get to look back, you know? Even now I&#039 ; ll look back three years ago when this person was a freshman or whatever. And, you know, it&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Hey, remember this picture, remember this BSU [Black Student Union] meeting, or remember this event,&quot ; you know? So. Visintainer: When you&#039 ; re taking your photographs, what guidance do you give your subjects? Northington: To be calm, to try to, like, take away the stress that they have, you know? Because it&#039 ; s almost exercise when you asked about some exercising, some positive things to kind of--because this, this also helps me, you know? This has becomes a tool of, uh, I mean, some people will call it a yoga, mental yoga, or a relaxation technique. Because just being able to take a picture of Black people and it makes them feel good. It makes me feel good. So, you know, you get to keep pushing that positive energy back into Black people. Because they need it just as much as anybody. So, if nobody&#039 ; s going to be particular to help pull up Black people, I&#039 ; m not going to sit around and fuss about it. What aspect can I add to it? So, I&#039 ; ll continue to do that. So, it can help them as well, you know? Especially those people who are more quiet and shy and then they go, &quot ; Oh, this person wanted to put me in their book or wanted to put me in their video,&quot ; and that can help change them and, and it help them grow and help them feel good about themselves so I could help them. They could help me. So that&#039 ; s the way I take it. Visintainer: Can you tell me about a particularly satisfying moment in your photography? (Northington laughs) Something that really, really made you, you know--I think you get a lot of joy out of it in general. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: But something that really made you go &quot ; Well, I&#039 ; m so happy to be doing what I&#039 ; m doing?&quot ; Northington: Uh, well, a lot of these photos in the books, especially the Black women&#039 ; s book, I printed out maybe seventy, eighty of these photos on a large canvas of like twenty-four by thirty-six. And I did a thing last year where I printed all these out on steel frames and some of them were on canvas and I gave these out to people or gave them to their mothers and to their grandmothers. And that was probably the most satisfying thing because you don&#039 ; t normally see people from a socioeconomic deprivation to be, to make a jump, to have something that may be considered expensive artwork of their own in their house. So, imagine walking in your house and having your own huge portrait on metal, on steel, on the wall, and every time your family comes over, &quot ; Look, this is my daughter in college. Look, this is my son in college.&quot ; And they had the picture taken by somebody on campus. When you would normally have to have enough income enough, you know, throw away money, to go pay for this. And it cost you three or 400 bucks. So, because it cost about 200 bucks for the photo. And then now for the photo photographer services, you might spend 500 dollars for something like that. Just for that joy. Well, I just give it to them and then they got that joy anyway. And they were sitting around talking about it. This one girl had her mother, her father, and her grandparents and her brothers and sisters at this event done by the Black SistaHood. It&#039 ; s another Black organization on campus. And we did a natural hair event last year to particularly talk about our natural hair and how we treated and things we can do to improve, you know. So, and that was a part of it. So, I printed out these huge photos. So, when people walked in, they had a line of all these huge photos of Black men and women in their natural hair, smiling, loving it. And I handed out a lot of these photos at that event and these people with their family and they just loving, they posting it online and everything like. So that right there would probably be the peak, that right there. Visintainer: That&#039 ; s cool. What&#039 ; s the most difficult part of the process of photography or creating art for you? Northington: Uh, impatient people (laughs). Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Yeah, or people that you&#039 ; re trying to communicate with a person to do what you see in your head. That&#039 ; s always difficult, you know? It&#039 ; s almost like telling somebody to draw something out of your head. That&#039 ; s the way I look at it. It&#039 ; s almost that difficult sometimes because you know, people want to sit and stand like, &quot ; Okay, roll your shoulders back.&quot ; And then they do the same thing. Okay. &quot ; Chin down,&quot ; Because this is how people take pictures. &quot ; Okay, we&#039 ; re going to take your picture.&quot ; Okay. &quot ; Stand there.&quot ; And then people do this, uh, you have to put your chin down, then they do this. Okay. (Visintainer laughs) You know? And then I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Alright, one millimeter, two millimeters to the left, to the right.&quot ; You know, all right. &quot ; Don&#039 ; t look at the camera,&quot ; and then I&#039 ; ll take the picture. Or when I get ready to take the picture. Okay, &quot ; One, two, three,&quot ; and then they pop the same pose. Okay. Well, no, we already posed you. Sit still, &quot ; All right, let&#039 ; s go.&quot ; You know, and people have a--he did it. Shamar did it. He, you know, keep ticking his head to the left when it&#039 ; s ready. All one, two, three. And then, you know, and I came to find out, a lot of people have a tick like that. Because people get used to taking photos. So, they have like a go-to pose. Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So that go-to pose becomes a difficult thing a lot of times. So, that, and I never like it when, if people are not satisfied with the photo. So, there&#039 ; s some photos that I put in the books that I really love and other people love them, you know, from the studios and everything. But then that person in the photo didn&#039 ; t particularly like that one. So, we&#039 ; ll take thirty or forty and I&#039 ; ll ask them to choose. And then I&#039 ; ll tell them the one I like. &quot ; You pick two or three and I&#039 ; ll tell you one I like.&quot ; Hopefully they&#039 ; re the same, but in some cases it&#039 ; s not the same. And then they&#039 ; re not as satisfied as I am. So, I don&#039 ; t like that part either. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: But, it&#039 ; s a part of the process. So. Visintainer: Um, so you published two books of photography. The first book was inspired by the question of hair. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: The representation of hair. Northington: Yes. Visintainer: Uh, what was the second book&#039 ; s (unintelligible)? Northington: The second book is of Black men. So, the negative characterizing of Black men has always been thugs and criminals. Well, we have all these Black men here on this campus going to school that are not student athletes. They&#039 ; re students, you know? So, they need to be recognized as being students. So, there&#039 ; s plenty of Black men that have graduated from college. That&#039 ; s not what you see on TV. You don&#039 ; t see a college graduate Black man on TV, in a commercial that we know that&#039 ; s what it is. The representation is always a sport, you know? (laughs) Music, you know? It&#039 ; s pretty, after that, it gets thin, you know? So, uh, you can be a comedian, it&#039 ; s entertainment, and it&#039 ; s entertainment-based mostly, you know? And if that&#039 ; s the eighty percent, the ninety percent, maybe even a hundred percent of what you&#039 ; re going to encompass, it&#039 ; s hard to see them as anything else. So, this determines a lot of how we treat people. If I only see Black men represented that way, but then I go home, nobody&#039 ; s --and my home&#039 ; s Black. I&#039 ; m not Black. I live in a community that&#039 ; s not Black. And my only visual of Black men is all this negative stuff. That&#039 ; s going to play on my comfortability or how I treat them. So now I come to Cal State San Marcos, I get in the elevator and I see a dude like this. I may be a little disheveled. So, if we can change some of those things, because we can, and put out the positive imagery of Black men, then these things can start to, you know, disappear. So, with that in mind, when I did the book for the Black man, again, I want people with all different hairstyles or all different natural hairstyles. But I told them not to smile because I need you to be able to be accepted for having a straight, comfortable face. I&#039 ; m just sitting in a class like this, or I&#039 ; m just in my Uber, or I&#039 ; m just, you know, at the ATM machine. You shouldn&#039 ; t have to smile, dance, and entertain to be accepted. And those are aspects of vaudeville, ragtime, USA, you know? You can be accepted by this society, entertaining people as a Black man, but can you be accepted when you don&#039 ; t entertain? When you just live life? And that&#039 ; s why we have these, social things that are happening such as barbecuing while Black, driving while Black, shopping while Black. These things occur so much because of how other people view Black men, Black women, Black children. And then you&#039 ; re already castigated and put into the box of criminal or not American, but other American. So, you viewed a certain way. Therefore, you&#039 ; re treated a certain way. And then this causes stress on both ends. So now the stress is building up on us and then the stress is building up on anybody on the other side. And then now it clashes when you get to a campus, when you get to a work environment and you have this wall up on both sides. Well, that doesn&#039 ; t make well for society. And it doesn&#039 ; t do well for people&#039 ; s mental health and spiritual health, especially the people on the end receiving all the negativity. So, we can help change some of these things. So, if I&#039 ; m not the one causing the racism on myself, I&#039 ; m not the one that needs to make the correction. So, the people viewing this and see these Black men, not smiling, being themselves, looking like me, looking like him, looking like all different aspects of Black men. And you get to view this in a book. They&#039 ; re all students, they&#039 ; re all at this university. They all go unseen. So, let&#039 ; s put this out here. So now when you see this, it forms now, &quot ; Okay, this is a little different than the rapper I saw on TV. This is a little different than the guys I see being chased by the cops.&quot ; So, I have to give you another element. So, it allows for some change, but people still have to make that choice themselves. So, that&#039 ; s the point for that one. Visintainer: And then you have a third book you&#039 ; re working on? Northington: Yes. And then the third book of this series, this is a series of books. The third book is called, &quot ; WE ARE,&quot ; and it&#039 ; s going to show the Black men and Black women together on campus doing regular life, you know? Studying, having fun, telling jokes, you know? Walking to their cars, walking to class, you know? Hanging out in the library, all different things, eating together, congregating, just enjoying each other&#039 ; s company. Because again, that&#039 ; s something we don&#039 ; t see propagated by the country, you know? There&#039 ; s a select few, you&#039 ; ll get, you know? If there&#039 ; s a people of color seminar, you know? There&#039 ; s an African American scholarship, then you&#039 ; ll see the commercial art for that be Black people smiling. So, it&#039 ; s not, it doesn&#039 ; t change the standard. That&#039 ; s a particular thing for a particular group of people. And it, you know, it&#039 ; s almost commodified in that way. I want to include us in the standard. So, including us in the standard becomes the change. So, I would look at it in that, in that realm. Visintainer: Do you have a, um, do you have a project after your next project? Are (unintelligible)? Northington: Yes. So as soon as I made the second book, I automatically thought I could just do a bunch of series. So, with this third book completing this series-- also, I did mention before, I think, I maybe told you on the side--all three books, I envisioned them already before I did them. So, I said, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to make another element to this.&quot ; So, the books have the photography and I have a passage in the front of the book that explains the purpose of the book. And then every book has its own title, which I explained on the first page. Then the final page of every book has the thank yous of everybody that we included that gave you the energy to the book. And the thank yous are translated into a different African language. So, with each book, you&#039 ; re going to learn a little bit of a different African language. Now, all three titles of the book in a series complete one sentence. So, the first book is called, &quot ; Solar Amalgamations.&quot ; The second book is called, &quot ; HUEMAN.&quot ; And the third book is called, &quot ; WE ARE.&quot ; And the whole sentence is rearranged: &quot ; We are solar amalgamations.&quot ; Well, &quot ; We are hueman [human] solar amalgamations.&quot ; And that generally means, &quot ; We are stars,&quot ; you know? We&#039 ; re carbon-based human beings. So, this is the carbon-based world. So, and then the human part, I spell &quot ; H-U-E-M-A-N&quot ; you know? Denoting the shade or the &quot ; hue.&quot ; Visintainer: Okay. Northington: So, &quot ; We are human solar amalgamations.&quot ; And that completes that trio. After that, there&#039 ; s another book series I&#039 ; m doing on older Black people that work on campus and things like this. So, I&#039 ; m particularly looking for fifty [years old] and up, you know? So, and then another series is going to be on Black families and it&#039 ; s going to go on and on and on and on and keep going with that. So, this sparked just a different--and I can, I think I&#039 ; m going to do this by just (unintelligible), and I&#039 ; ll be able to keep adding more series. So, and that&#039 ; s what that&#039 ; s going to do. So, and then this third book should be out. I want it to be done now, but people&#039 ; s schedules, it&#039 ; s always tough. The more people that are in the photos, it gets tougher. So, it was a little easier to do the first two books because it was individuals. And then I could put it together in a week or something after I got all the photos, I spent one week putting the whole book together. But we groups. So, these photos are going to be done in groups. It&#039 ; s going be at least two people in every photo. And I&#039 ; m trying to get some photos of six and seven and twelve people, you know? To add to that, the aspect of us together, &quot ; WE ARE,&quot ; that&#039 ; s the title. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: So, it should show us together. So, it may take a little longer than I thought and it may not come out into the spring. So. Visintaier: That&#039 ; s a lot of scheduling direct. Northington: Yeah, yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: And I have to be the most free because I have to work with everybody else&#039 ; s schedule. So Visintainer: I think that&#039 ; s all of the questions that I had. Northington: Okay. Visintainer: Was there anything that I should have asked you about that I didn&#039 ; t? Northington: The recent recognition that&#039 ; s happening that never happened. I&#039 ; ve been here going on my fourth year, as I said. And when I spoke about people being invisible, that includes me as well. So, I had to sit back and watch my fellow students that are in class with me, get their work recognized every year, every semester, over and over, you know? People that ask for my help or people that I ask for help. We&#039 ; re all in the same class. And you know, there&#039 ; s a nursing program, they all go to the same classes. There&#039 ; s sociology, they all-- same thing with art. We&#039 ; re all in the same classes, especially in my student discipline, art and technology, we&#039 ; re all in the same classes. So, to see some of those students get their work put out or get recognized or see their work, you know, in different areas on campus or whatever I say, &quot ; Okay, this is how this works.&quot ; So, it doesn&#039 ; t stop. It doesn&#039 ; t turn off. So now, you know, you just come here and then you see the work in the, in the art-- it all just linked up. The students in the art department that put on the exhibit, the art juncture, you know, they reached out because a few of my art professors let them know. So, all of those pieces kind of came together at once. So, you know, I did old people&#039 ; s luncheon, I did photography for them, did their programs and all these other things. This all happened in one month. That part, the school newspaper reached out to me and did an interview and they put it in a newspaper and they posted my photos. Another group of people for Art Equals Opportunity that they work in a--in the San Diego area using art to help students, you know, learn the lessons of English, you know, history, science, and everything. But using the conduit of art, they posted me on their website. All of this happened in the same month. And then you walk in, you know? And your coworker sees the work and then we meet to do this. And all, all of this just happened at once. That&#039 ; s just that. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: Then the last, last week I submitted some of these photos to, ah, Lycoming College. It&#039 ; s in, uh, Pennsylvania. It&#039 ; s in Williamsport, Pennsylvania. And there was this huge national search for all Black art for their exhibit called &quot ; Blurred Expectations.&quot ; That&#039 ; s open now. It just opened today. Everybody across the country submitted. Somebody that knew me said, &quot ; Hey, you should submit your stuff to this.&quot ; I submitted it. Boom, immediately. They was like, &quot ; Yes, it&#039 ; s in.&quot ; So, once this exhibit ended here, the very next day, I had to take it down and ship it. Visintaier: Yeah. Northington: Uh, to Williamsport, Pennsylvania. And it&#039 ; s up right now in their exhibit. And then ASI, the ASI student government here, just accepted one of my pieces for that art project. So, within two months, this semester, all of the work I&#039 ; ve been doing for years, you know? Some of this book is 2017. This book is 2018., you know? And I&#039 ; m currently doing--so these things are year, two years old, after I watch all of my, you know, fellow students be recognized. All of mine is coming right here in two months. So that&#039 ; s, you know, that&#039 ; s been a big change. So. Visintainer: Yeah. Well, congratulations. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: How long is the exhibition in Virginia up for? Northington: Until the beginning of February. So, they got a couple of months. Yeah. I think it&#039 ; s right at two and a half months. Something like that. Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: No, the end of November. All of December. All of January. Yeah. So, it&#039 ; s right at like two and a half months. Think they got like eight week-- Visintainer: (both talking at once) Is there going to-- Northington: (both talking at once) --be six week, ten weeks, something like that. Visintainer: Is there going to be a digital component to it? Northington: Well, they&#039 ; ve been posting videos and uh, you know, tagging all of the artists in it and everything like that. And they made--they made a social media page, they made an Instagram page. So that&#039 ; s how everybody&#039 ; s keeping up who&#039 ; s not in their area at that school. And it&#039 ; s like a huge four-year private institution. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: That costs like ten times as much as this school to go to. So, it&#039 ; s-- and it was a national search. So, it&#039 ; s-- it is, it is good to add to, ah, you know, to a resume for something like that. So, I mean (laughs). Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: You know, it&#039 ; s like on my way out the door, I have all these résumé items now that didn&#039 ; t exist before, you know? Even though I&#039 ; ve done so much work on this campus going unrecognized, but it&#039 ; s now, it&#039 ; s now all happening right now at the perfect time. So. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: I can appreciate that. So, uh, and I also wanted to mention all the supporters that helped over this time. So, Miss Ariel Stevenson from the Office of Inclusive Excellence. Uh, Mrs. Marilyn McWilliams, Office of Inclusive Excellence, Dr. Sharon Elise, you know? These are people who supported me from the beginning to now. No holds barred, you know? They even got a little flack, you know, at times, because I&#039 ; m not as accepted as everybody else. So, you know, they&#039 ; ve asked me to do different projects on campus. They supported, they came to all of the events, you know? We established another club on campus: The Black SistaHood to encompass all these elements I spoke about, about photography, my photography, Black-specific, and how it assist in helping us get through this society and try to make some things positive where we turn that into a student club and organization. So, that&#039 ; s why I have this. That&#039 ; s why wore this sweater for this interview. So no, and this is more pushing love for people, you know? Loving each other, breaking through some of these stereotypes and turning these negatives into positives and becoming, you know, great people in life. So, and a lot of that&#039 ; s going to be exemplified in the third book, in the, &quot ; WE ARE&quot ; book, you know? So, uh, been a part of Black Student Union since I&#039 ; ve been here, you know? Some--there was some people in the sorority, Black sorority and Black fraternity, Sigma Gamma and Omega Psi Phi, a few, there&#039 ; s a few individuals that supported me and helped as well. And then the Black Student Center itself has been the hub for all of this. So once that was established and created, it allowed me a centered space because before I had to walk around the entire campus, like loop every building and hang out during every U-hour, whether I had class or not. And just try to like find people. So that&#039 ; s what I had to do before. And it&#039 ; s like the people out here right now, &quot ; Are you registered to vote? Are you registered to vote?&quot ; I was one of those people. With my camera and no book because the book is not made yet. So, I&#039 ; m out here with a printed sheet of paper. &quot ; Hey, would you like to take a photo for my project?&quot ; And this-- and that was not as, you know, as presenting, you know, as to walk up with an already made book. So, once I got the first book, I got more yeses. Once I had two books, I got--you know, so the yeses come a lot easier. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: So, having the, the Black Student Center here, I get the crowd now. So now I have more people to choose from and it&#039 ; s just so much easier to do it now than it was, you know, in 2016, when I started the first book. So, it&#039 ; s a lot easier now. So, that may--that may be it. And uh, as long as you using the terminology &quot ; Black,&quot ; because I don&#039 ; t, I don&#039 ; t use &quot ; African American&quot ; or &quot ; people of color.&quot ; Visintainer: Yeah Northington: So, while y&#039 ; all printing this, any, any printing that has to be done uh-- Vistintainer: I&#039 ; ll, I&#039 ; ll send you any verbiage that we do. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: And then that way you can look it over and-- Northington: Okay, okay. Visintainer: Correct me, if I&#039 ; m making a mistake. Northington: (laughs) Well, you know, it&#039 ; s not a mistake for other people, but for me that, you know, it just doesn&#039 ; t work for me. Visintainer: Yeah. Northington: So, that might be it. And then shout out to the, the people who are coming behind me, you know, Shamar. We got (unintelligible) Williams. She&#039 ; s been working with me the most here. So, she&#039 ; s a senior now and she&#039 ; s in my same major field: visual performing arts. And she&#039 ; s helped a lot over the last year because I&#039 ; ve been just forcing her and pushing her to do her photos, to do her artwork, you know? And then as I mentioned with Gordon Parks, this isn&#039 ; t one element, like I told you before, the photo is just one thing that I&#039 ; ve done on this campus. So, I make these shirts, I make these logos, these designs, you know? So, all of the BSU gear you&#039 ; ve seen, all of the Black Student Center gear you&#039 ; ve seen for the most part, all the Black SistaHood, Black Brotherhood, you know, Transitions Collective. I did some logos for them. Project Rebound, I&#039 ; m designing a logo for them right now. So, there&#039 ; s so many elements to the artwork that I produced on campus. So, and I&#039 ; ve done about four or five, like a components--we just saw the art exhibit. But then I already did two exhibits here in the library and we&#039 ; re working on the third with the art department right now on sustainability. So, I have an art project, uh, a water art project that&#039 ; s going to be in sustainability, you know? If that happens in the spring, that&#039 ; s still talking about that. I did a sustainability project with ASI about straws. And this was right before they banned straws on this campus. We were trying to make a push to get rid of straws and how this affected the aquatic life. And we, you know, we created like a sea turtle with a straw in his mouth and shows how this kind of messes them up. So, uh, spent a lot of things like that on campus. So, I just want to make sure it&#039 ; s not just photography. Visintainer: Sure. Northington: I would say it&#039 ; s art and I&#039 ; m sure you understand that it&#039 ; s art and, but this part is the photography, but there&#039 ; s so much more that I&#039 ; ve been a part of on campus than that. And now I want the next group of people like Shamar to come along and continue it. Because if I--you know, once I leave it&#039 ; s over, it shouldn&#039 ; t be, it shouldn&#039 ; t end. It should be fifteen, twenty more people. So, I try to do my part and help them learn the right avenues, meet some people, you know? That&#039 ; s why I asked them to come and be here and to see a different process, you know? &quot ; Okay, this is where I started. And then I could do this, this, this, this, this.&quot ; They can do the same thing I&#039 ; m doing, you know? It&#039 ; s not, it&#039 ; s not that special. You have to do the work, you know? You have your vision, you have what, your passion and then you need to do the work. And you&#039 ; ll get everything that you want out of it. So. And that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s probably all I got right there. Visintainer: Alright. Northington: Yeah. Visintainer: Well, thank you, Jake. Northington: (both talking at once) No problem. Visintainer: (talking at once) I really appreciate you coming by and chatting with us. Northington: Make sure we see, uh- Visintainer: Yes. Northington: The women that I love. And then the men&#039 ; s book. And the third book will be coming soon. Visintainer: Alright. Northington: Alright. Visintainer: Thank you, sir. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you have questions regarding usage of this oral history. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NorthingtonJake_VisintainerSean_11-22-2019_Access.xml NorthingtonJake_VisintainerSean_11-22-2019_Access.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northington, Jake. Interview November 22, 2019 Description An account of the resource Jake Northington is a California State University San Marcos alumnus. He graduated with his degree in Photography in 2019. In this interview, Jake discusses his artistic influences, the importance of Black representation in his photography, and his involvement in CSUSM’s Black Student Center and the Black SistaHood. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-13 Subject The topic of the resource Artists, Black California State University San Marcos -- Black Student Center California State University San Marcos -- Students Portrait photography Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-11-22 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant East Saint Louis (Ill.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Jake Northington Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jake Northington Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Activists and activism Art and artists Black experience CSUSM history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ayana Ford Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jake Northington OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NorthingtonJake_FordAyana_2021-04-06.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Northington, Jake. Interview April 6th, 2021 SC027-01 1:52:01 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm Artists, Black California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos -- Students East Saint Louis (Ill.) Portrait photography San Marcos (Calif.) Student success Jake Northington Ayana Ford moving image NorthingtonJake_FordAyana_2021-04-06.mp4 2.0:|27(6)|51(13)|76(8)|102(13)|128(10)|156(9)|186(3)|216(4)|252(6)|282(14)|307(14)|335(10)|359(13)|385(12)|411(16)|436(4)|468(4)|492(8)|521(10)|547(15)|576(16)|602(4)|635(8)|662(7)|690(14)|716(9)|742(11)|766(13)|799(17)|828(4)|854(8)|882(8)|914(13)|942(10)|967(4)|1000(8)|1025(4)|1051(11)|1076(12)|1101(13)|1124(11)|1153(8)|1181(14)|1209(13)|1241(8)|1267(5)|1297(9)|1326(11)|1360(4)|1383(13)|1410(15)|1439(17)|1465(4)|1491(17)|1525(5)|1556(5) Undefined 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/82266c0c7756087444ebd53d3f362a8c.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction Interview with Jake Northington, April 6, 2021. Conducted by Ayana Ford over Zoom. Interview conducted as part of the Black Student Center Oral History Project. Interview contains some technical difficulties with disrupted internet connections and lagging. 0 29 Childhood and Northington's understanding of Blackness Northington discusses his childhood in East Saint Louis, Illinois, moving around a lot, and how his childhood in East Saint Louis informed his understanding of his Blackness. 0 276 Impact of Black activism Northington discusses how he has been impacted by Black social justice movements. Northington also reflects on how his community in East Saint Louis empowered him. 0 577 Moving to San Marcos, California Northington recalls how he ended up going to school at CSUSM, which he attended after a stint in the military as a Marine. Northington discusses how being in the Marine Corps prepared him for being in environments where Black people were not often represented. Northington also discusses his first impression of campus. 0 893 Involvement with creation of the Black Student Center Northington recalls how he became involved with the Black Student Center, and how he was familiarized with Black population on campus before he was a student. Northington discusses some of the advocacy that went into creating the BSC, and how he participated. 0 1023 Activities and connection to Black students on campus Northington discusses his membership with the BSU, and other projects and organizations that he and other students were involved with on campus. 0 1429 Needs of students, staff, and faculty involved in Black Student Center creation Northington discusses the needs of Black students on campus at the time that the Black Student Center's push for advocacy was happening. Northington discusses the police killings of Black Americans in the mid-2010s and the feelings of CSUSM's Black students at that time. 0 1585 Opposition to Black Student Center's creation Northington discusses the feelings of CSUSM students, staff, and faculty that were opposed to the Black Student Center's creation. Northington recalls micro and macroaggressions and racialized incidents, as well as the university's responses. 0 1919 Grand opening of the Black Student Center Northington recalls his participation in the creation of the physical space, and how the art and decor of the Black Student Center helps facilitate community and student success. 0 2293 Early focus of the Black Student Center Northington describes the early focuses of the Black Student Center, including the initiative to get Black students, staff, and faculty aware of and using the center ; recruitment of Black students to attend CSUSM ; and the center's participation in efforts to lead to student success. 0 2686 Impact of the Black Student Center Northington discusses the impact of the Black Student Center in building community and facilitating student success, both in terms of the larger campus community and in terms of his own success in academia. 0 3127 Future expectations for the Black Student Center Northington outlines his expectations for the Black Student Center, including programming, a larger footprint with San Diego County's Black Community, the creation of a robust Black alumni network, in the works at the time of Northington's interview, the expansion of the space, a graduate assistanceship, 0 3437 Leaders of the movement for the Black Student Center Northington recalls the impact of individuals involved with the effort to advocate for and implement the Black Student Center, including Tiffaney Boyd, Jamaéla Johnson, and Akilah Green, who worked in capacities in student government and the Black Student Union. 0 3568 Involvement in programming Northington discusses his involvement in the Black Student Center's events, as well as events and programs put on by or in collaboration with the Black Student Center. 0 3843 Mission(s) of the Black Student Center Northington ruminates on the mission of the Black Student Center and whether it has changed. Northington also discusses the need to have more Black staff and faculty hired on campus, and to retain Black CSUSM graduates as employees. 0 4042 Campus outreach to the Black community Northington discusses the importance of outreach by various campus departments to the Black community, especially by promotion of events. 0 4134 Perception of Black students on campus Northington discusses how Black students are perceived on campus and his view on the work that President Ellen Neufeldt has done to date. 0 4218 [technical difficulties] 0 4260 Photography of Black students on campus Northington discusses his photography and shows some of his work, as well as discusses the themes and thinking behind the portraits of Black students and staff that he took during his matriculation. 0 4922 Impact of archiving the Black Student Center's people and programs Northington expounds upon the importance of recording and preserving Black campus history, and how through the work of preserving and making accessible the past, student success in the future is enabled. 0 5184 Mentorship from Ariel Stevenson and Marilyn McWilliams Northington discusses the momentous impact of CSUSM employees Ariel Stevenson and Marilyn McWilliams, and how their support - especially but not limited to before the creation of the Black Student Center - has been so vital to Black students' success at CSUSM. 0 5301 CSU San Marcos educational experience Northington discusses his academic career at CSUSM, where he studied Visual and Performing Arts. Northington recalls how he discovered photography and learned the craft. 0 5595 Black Student Center's impact on campus employment Northington discusses the roadblocks that Black students can experience gaining employment on campus, and how the Black Student Center assists Black students in gaining employment and professional skillsets. 0 5867 Advocates for the creation of the Black Student Center Northington recalls more of the individuals that pushed for the creation of the Black Student Center, including students, staff, and administrators. 0 6009 Black Brotherhood, Black Sistahood, and support Northington recalls creating the Black Brotherhood student organization with Louis Adamsel, as well as the organization's purpose. Northington also discusses the creation of the Black Sistahood, a similar organization for Black women, and how the Black Student Center helped maintain these organizations once the students involved in their creation graduated. 0 6568 Role in the Black Student Center oral history project Northington discusses his direct role, including the genesis of the project, in the creation of the Black Student Center Oral History Project. Northington also discusses the involvement of John Rawlins III, former director of the Black Student Center, and Sean Visintainer, Head of University Library Special Collections. Northington outlines the process of the project and his pride in the project. 0 Jake Northington is a California State University San Marcos alumni. He graduated with his degree in Photography in 2019. Jake worked in the Black Student Center and created photography that hangs in the Center. In this interview, Jake discusses his childhood growing up in East St. Louis, Illinois, how and when he came to CSUSM in 2016, and his involvement with the creation of the Black Student Center. Ayana Ford: Today is April 6th, 2021, at one-o-eight PM. I am Ayana Ford. I'm a student at Cal State San Marcos, and today I am interviewing Jake Northington for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration between the CSUSM Black Student Center and CSUSM University Special Archives (Special Collections). Mr. Northington, thank you for being with me today. I’d like to start by talking about your childhood. When and where were you born? Jake Northington: Oh, I was born in Illinois. I'm from East St. Louis, Illinois. That's where I grew up. And I moved around a lot as a child. I was adopted quite a few times and that allowed me to stay in a lot of cities. A lot of States, I went to quite a few elementary, middle schools, high schools. I went to four or five different high schools and I kind of moved around a lot, so, and ended up here in California. Ayana Ford: Wow. So that actually brings us to, our next question. How did you come to understand Blackness? Because I know by moving around to different places that would change your understanding. Jake Northington: Well, the city I'm from is 97% Black, and it's been that way for hundreds of years. So East St. Louis is in Illinois. Most people have never been there. And then people have heard of St. Louis, Missouri. Well both sides of the city is divided by the Mississippi River. And East St. Louis was a town established by Black people and it's been Black forever. And one of the major things that happened in that city was during the industrial revolution, like you've got a big race riot that happened in about 1918 that decimated the city, the East side of the city. And it's been decimated like that since then. And many of those places and the industries that were burned down are still burned down today. So even when I grew up, a lot of those places was still burned down and dilapidated just, it stayed like that for so many years and it's been a place of poverty, but within that ninety-seven plus percent of the population is Black. So growing up, I got to see Black people drive cars, be the principals, be police officers, drive the city bus, you know, they're driving Greyhound buses. They were mayors, city council people and all of these things that even the person delivering the mail – the person delivering to the doors and all of the shops, it's just a big group of Blackness. And I got to see Blackness from all different levels of economics and education. So I'm in an area where I get to see Black people from economically the lowest level and economically a higher level. So being able to see Black people among those different class groups and those different educational groups, it allows you to see people for who they are. When you can only see another group of people living wealthy and rich, it could kind of skew your view of that entire group. So, because I grew up in an area like that, I didn't get a skewed view of my own people. Ayana Ford: So do you feel like that helped you become more comfortable with yourself as a whole? Jake Northington: I was never uncomfortable. I would answer it that way. So I never had to get to a point to become comfortable being Black. My teachers are Black. So when I grew up, there was no such thing as being the only Black kid in class that wasn't a part of my upbringing. Everybody in class was Black ; teachers, middle, the principal, everybody, the Superintendents. So that wasn't an issue growing up so that every Black person there is practicing Black culture. The food, the music, the art, the corporations, the festivals, everything that's happening in a park, every holiday that we celebrate, everything was full. And so these are not things I had to pick up later in life or learn later in life. Ayana Ford: So how has the Black social justice and activism such as a civil rights movement, feminism, the Natural Hair Movement and the Black Lives Matter protest affected you? Jake Northington: Oh, well, so the civil rights movement definitely affected us. But in a way that's a little different for me because I--you got a lot of integration. You got a lot of Black people in areas they weren't, they were not allowed to before. You started to see, maybe an area of homes where you'll now have a few more Black families that never existed before, or you'll start to see Black people being allowed in certain malls or restaurants. Those things start to become a lot more commonplace, but growing up in East St. Louis, that doesn't matter. That didn't change. So you could--the people there were concentrated. So we didn't get to see all these different races of people and other cultures. We got to sit together, build together, fail, and grow together and go through all of the tribulations of life together. And you could get your answers from your own group of people. You could get--you know, you may get chastised, you may get corrected, you may be taught to do this, taught to do that. And it gives you an influx of empowerment. Like if I reach out and I want to know like, Ooh, what happened with Black people 50 years ago? I don't have to go to the local library and read it. I could find someone 70 or 80 years old that I can just talk to or ask what did Black people go through during the civil rights? These people are right here in front of me every day, they went through the civil rights. I don't have to go to a library or a com(puter) or something like that. And I think that's what people who grew up outside of a Black city, they may have to do some of those things. Well, I did not. So the civil rights effect on me didn't come with a lot of integration. The civil rights effect on other people, they may have been forced those to go into a lot of integration. And with that integration, they could have lost some sense of culture or some of the things that I was afforded to have, growing up in a predominantly Black city, going to a Black middle school, elementary, high school and things like that. So, the civil rights movement, you know, it had an effect as far as activism. Being at a Black school, we always celebrated Black History Month. Like throughout the year, we did things such as we had to give book reports or oral reports on every single Black person in history. And most of the time, these were all the Black people during the civil rights movement. So all eighteen or twenty of us, in second grade class, we'd all have to give out oral report and dress up as that person. So--and this is something I brought later to San Marcos as a student--and that's why I got that from. Being able to do that connected us to it. And it allowed us to see what we had gone through as a people, where we're currently at in East St. Louis, and then to kind of (technical difficulties) cast. That's what it allowed for me, that particular social movement. But then you get the, uh, the Black Panther Party movement, things like that. We got to see a lot of these people actively in the streets protecting other Black people. And some of these things were available in East St. Louis as well. So a lot of chapters that have Black Panther Party, some of those people came from Chicago and they will come down and then they would help protect or teach people different protective measures or teach more about history. And, that those two movements within my whole community, as far as people wanting to know more about history, people wanting to know what can they do actively in their community to correct some of the things that are issues in their community. So those two things had a great effect on my life and my upbringing. Now, when you get to some of the other movements, not as much, because I'm not actively involved in newer movements, but when as a kid, these other movements really had an effect on my mindset and give me a reason to look at Black people as a whole group of people and not just the people here on my street, the people in my school, the people in my city, you know, it allowed me to open my mind up to Black people on the planet. And having Black teachers all of through school before leaving, East St. Louis, having those Black teachers in all of this, this Black community as my baseline, once I left and going to these other cities, I was already, you know, in a strong understanding of who I am and come from. Ayana Ford: So, I imagine that's a big shift for coming to San Marcos. Did you come directly from (East St. Louis to) San Marcos? So, did you go straight to San Marcos after that? Or no? Jake Northington: I came here for work, so I completed my job. I was in the military after I completed my time in the military . It's right here. And you know, it was right down the street. It's like ten miles down the street, the military base (Camp Pendelton). So in this case, I wasn’t trying to move again with so, so much moving going on early in my life. I wasn’t interested in continuing to move. So I just chose to apply to the school (Palomar College). It’s the only school I applied to. Ayana Ford: Really. So was it--so you said you came, so you came from the military, so it was, it wasn't a really big shift coming from the military to the San Marcos meaning, culturally, or was it an easy shift because you got to be around a bunch of different cultures? Jake Northington: Yeah. So, I would say, no, it wasn't a difficult shift because even in the military, you're around every state and multiple countries. A lot of people from other countries joined the military to get citizenship and stuff like that. Even within the military, you're getting half of the states. At one job, half of the states are covered with people from different states. And I was in the Marine Corps specifically. There's not a lot of Black people in the Marine Corps. Most of the Marine Corps is non-Black so we already around other people and dealing with other peoples’ culture and stuff like that. And then prior to joining the military, I had already lived in Dallas, Texas, and I lived in Chicago. I lived in a bunch of other cities. So I was engaged in (technical difficulties) privy to being in the first university I went to. I went to college right out of high school and didn't work out too well, so I wasn't prepared for college in a way that I needed to be. That's kind of how it happened from the city I come from. It really doesn't prepare you for college. A lot of the effects of the, what is that called? They put a thing out in the eighties that was no child left behind policy. So it kind of turned all of our testing into multiple choice. And that was no more fill in the blank (unclear) of measure. So it was just pass or fail and they were just trying to pass everybody. So a lot of people were not prepared mathematically, through English, or through science and reasoning to even walk into college. It did a lot of us that disservice. So I had to take a little bit of a U-turn in order to come into the university and be successful. And that U-turn was the military. And that's what brought me to California. And then after the military, this school's right here. So that's why I chose San Marcos. There's no special reason (otherwise). Ayana Ford: So this--you think this, this U-turn helped you prepare for your coming to San Marcos with everything going around with so many different cultures that are entering the military? Jake Northington: Well, I mean, again, I had already faced it before the military, ‘cause I'd already been in universities and I'd already live in other cities. So I was already prepared even before joining the military. That's why I had no issues. So it's just a repetitive understanding that all of this is not East St. Louis. And everything I learned in East St. Louis, it doesn't necessarily show up everywhere, you know, it became more disheartening. So it wasn't a shock. It was more disheartening that outside of East St. Louis, I didn't go to a lot of places where they had a large congregation of Black people living at home, going to work, having all of these big family events and things like this. So that was more disheartening. I wouldn't call it a culture shock because this is still America. So I know I still live in the United States. So (laughs). Ayana Ford: So what was your first impression of San Marcos as a Black student? What was your first impression? Jake Northington: (unclear) That I didn't see any other Black students. The first impression was where are all the Black students at? Like, where are my people at? And now you walk around on a regular basis, every day you may see eight Black people. If you're on campus for four or five hours, you might see eight black people. And half of those are faculty and staff. So almost never saw the Black students, especially in my, uh, my study. I was in Visual and Performing Arts. And I think the entire time I only saw one other Black student in my class. Ayana Ford: Oh my goodness. So, can you, what, where did the student--(technological difficulties)--Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry. So you were, you were, were you at the (unclear), grand opening, Black Student Center’s grand opening? Jake Northington: Yes. Ayana Ford: So you got to see it come to be. How do you think that it impacted your involvement on campus? Being able to see this come to be? Jake Northington: Well, I already knew it was happening because I was a part of the, some of the other students who were working to make it come about. So before I got to the school, I was already coming here and being active because the first school I went to here was Palomar. So I went to Palomar College, which is the junior college across the street from the school. So I was already going to Palomar College. And while at Palomar College, I would come to San Marcos or some of the events and, you know, they put out a lot of different events that they were doing, and I would come to some of them, during kind of the U-hour (University Hour, noon to 1 pm on Tuesdays and Thursdays, a time devoted to student mingling and interaction) on campus. So I was able to witness some of these things, and then there were groups of students trying to start the process of getting a Black Student Center. So these people were already doing this. And I'm quite sure this has been tried before as well, but this time it became successful. So I'm sure that's not the only time the Black student body asks for a place like this, but it was just the right group of students this time. And that was the very excellent Black students. They pushed it and they put all the measures in place. And then I just got involved immediately because when I got to the campus and said where all the Black students, I got involved immediately, I saw a couple of Black students that were out here really active and trying to make things happen. And I'm a person like that. So I just attached myself to some of those people and did what I could with this entire project. So I was along the lines of the project and I kind of added here and there wherever I could. And that was, uh, that was just a good group of students that were pushing to get their center. And I just happened to be one of them. Ayana Ford: So to backtrack, were you in-- Jake Northington: So I know I, (technical difficulties). Say what? Ayana Ford: Oh, I'm sorry. You cut off. Jake Northington: Oh, okay. Ayana Ford: To backtrack: so were you, were you in any activities or anything that got you to be able to connect with more Black students on campus? Jake Northington: Yes, because when I first got here and I said, where were all the Black students immediately, I would stop people and be like, Hey, where's the BSU (Black Student Union) meetings held at where's this where's that, you know, you have to have a BSU! I mean, you got more than 10 Black students. You got to have a BSU. I would think, you know, so I found the people going to the meetings. I became a member immediately, you know, I started paying my dues. I went to every meeting and then I just kept asking for more. So I don't like things the way they are just because, you know, I think we deserved more than what we were getting. And then a few students felt the same. And then we decided to keep pushing for more, you know, every one of us has a part to play. So while some people wanted to operate, you know, the BSU, some people want to operate, like they had a Black Christian Ministries. Some people went other ways and then everybody has a part to play, to keep growing the Black community on campus. I wanted to find out things I could help do to grow the Black community on campus. And then this avenue of having a Black Student Center became one of them. So I just jumped in right into that and got involved. And that's what kind of segued me. So getting involved in the BSU segued to getting involved in this Black Student Center project. Ayana Ford: So, what do you think the role of the Black Student Center, Union was played with the Black Student Union (Center)? Like how did you, how did, what was your, did you have like a administrative role or were you just a student? Jake Northington: As far as the Black Student Center? Ayana Ford: Union. Jake Northington: Union? Oh, the Black Student Union, I was just a member. And then at one point I did run for one position. I didn't win it though. Somebody beat me out, but I did run for one position in one semester. But other than that, I was pretty active. I helped design some of the logos that they had for merchandise, I helped set up and break down events, things like that. So I was never an official officer, but I did the same thing many other students did, you know, so I didn't do anything special, but I just gave all the support I could. Showed up to every event I could and helped set up and helped put on some of the events, you know, just like everyone else. But then the activism within the Black Student Center project, this is when it started to kick up a little more, because I did other things on campus. I was a part of the College is 4 Me seminar at that time for the high school students trying to come to college. I was able to speak on some of those panels and then this led to other opportunities. So then I started to get selected to be involved in other occasions. So then I started to go to ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) meetings on the regular. Every week I would go to ASI meetings, take notes, say whatever I needed to say and try to transfer some of the things that the Black students were asking for in BSU meetings and try to bring some of those things and present them ASI meetings. If I could. And also sometimes those things happen and then them extended meetings. And just any meeting I saw happening on campus--they used to do a check-in with the vice president. They used to, they had all these open forums, I would go to everything. So that's the way I started and supplanted myself, as far as trying to help create some change and just attach myself with groups that were creating change, or sometimes create our own group to create some change. So then when, you know, as we got further and further along with Black Student Center, these other students were doing their part to start the resolution (for the creation of the BSC). And then I was just one of the students that came along to make sure we spoke up in support of it during some of those ASI meetings. And once it got voted on and it all got agreed to, then we had to have students to work there. And we also had to have people come interview for the position to be the director. So along those lines, I became even more involved. So I was selected to be one of the eight people to sit down and have luncheons with the candidates for the position. So I was able to do that. And we were, you know, in a conference room and we had to do some little, like just a little enclosed meeting and luncheon and kinda see what each person was standing and what they offered. And then I went to every one of the people's presentations to be the next candidate. And then I kept doing that with other positions as well that were around the campus. So that was another part I played. Also, we all sat down as a Black Student Center--as a Black Student Union, a lot of us sat down to come up with the name of the Black Student Center. So there's many names thrown out there. So in that it's called the Black Student Center, I helped vote for that too. You know, some students voted for that and I was just one of those, some students voted for different names, and this is a name that everybody kind of agreed to settle on. We also had to put in evaluation sheets for the presentations we liked the best from the different candidates. So I was able to do that as a student and able to do that as one of the eight people selected to be on the little small group panel. And I was the only student on that (panel). Everybody else was a staff member, but I was the only student. So then from that, I got hired. So I was one of the first people to get hired into the Black Student Center. And I was hired there. And then I actually designed the logo that they still use today. You know, I'm happy they still use it, but I'm like, it's been a couple of years. I was surprised they haven't gotten somebody to change it, but that's nice that every time I see it, I just remember. I did that and they--there's been like a lot of merchandise and just, you know, lapel pins, t-shirts and the space. All of the photos for the first two or three years, I took them all. So at that grand opening, all of the photos of the grand opening, a lot of those things you see as for a lot of the activities from the first couple of years, different video clips and stuff like that, you know, a larger majority of those things I did. There was a few other people that took pictures and videos, but the large majority of it, I did. That was one--that was my position when I worked in the Center, I did a lot of media and a lot of archiving. Ayana Ford: Wow. So what did you think that the student, staff and (faculty) involved in the creation of the Black Student Center felt like they needed? While you were in the meetings? Jake Northington: Well, one is we needed a space that was our own. That's just number one. I would think all groups need a space that's their own when you're coming into a university system. Because we're going to be here for awhile. You're going to come to class, you're going to be here for six, eight hours a day. Some people are spending ten to twelve hours like me. I was one of those students that was on campus ten to twelve hours a day. You are a student who works on campus. So now you're taking your classes and your work here. You have to have some level of comfort and security. And then all of these things occurred during the height of a lot of shootings and murders of Black people that we all were able to witness over the course of these same years. So we're talking about the center opening in 2017, but this comes off the backs of the Sandra Bland murder, the Trayvon Martin murder that Tamir Rice murder, the Mike Brown murder all the way back to back to back, leading up to right before we got a space. So all the anxiety was constantly building amongst Black people, just in the country and you know around the planet. So with that high level of anxiety, a lot of Black students just felt a little more uncomfortable or insecure being on a college campus, that maybe they didn't feel as much support as they had once said they needed. So, having the space is something people asked for, because now we can have programs specifically for Black people that didn't exist prior, we could create support groups. We could have fellow mentoring from other Black students to Black students or Black faculty to Black students. We could have a hub or a home on campus where we could just relax and take all the stresses of being a Black college student or just a Black citizen in the country. So it becomes a place of that. So you get a little, a piece, a little home feeling, and a reinvigoration of why you're here. (technical difficulties) Ayana Ford: Can you hear me? Jake Northington: Yeah. Yeah. Ayana Ford: I'm sorry. You cut off again. I'm so sorry. So did you feel in the beginning, did you feel any pushback for the creation of Black Student Center in the upper--from people above? Jake Northington: Oh yeah. There's tons of it. I got it all printed out. People physically looked at us and gave us nasty looks walking around. This is faculty, staff, and students. Would physically look at us in a way of like, You don't belong here. So, before the center open Black people will be walking around sporadically, going to classes or something like that. And we were not grouped up as much. The only time you would maybe see a group of Black students is on the way to the BSU meeting on the, on the way back from the BSU meeting. And that may be the only times you can see groups. Once we get a Black Student Center, it's now a constant that everybody on campus is now constantly able to view, look at these groups of Black students right here around the center of campus at the USU (University Student Union). So this was a new thing for the campus. So we started to get nasty looks. We got a lot of students disagreeing with us having a space. We got people saying that, Where's the white student center? We had a few people even saying, I want my student fees back from you, (technical difficulties) my student fees going to the Black Student Center. Some people said that the Black Student Center is separation and segregation. All of these things were placed on the school's website, the school's Facebook page, the school's Instagram page. And, you know, the school had to do their job of correcting some of these things. But this was the feel of a lot of students, faculty, and staff, and some of them voiced these things. So we did get a lot of backlash. Ayana Ford: Do you feel like the school did a good job on responding to that, to the backlash that you guys received? Jake Northington: Ah, I mean, I would say the school did what they could because, I mean, if somebody states in opinion like that, that they don't want their money going to this, that's not an offense. You didn't break the law. You didn't. I mean, so what could the school do besides, Okay, we don't enforce, or we don't support that type of rhetoric so we'll take it down. I mean, I would say the school did that much. That’s tough to take in that manner. People get to feel how they feel and state the things they state, as long as they don't go over a particular line of, of racializing things or something like that. I don't think there was much else the school could do as far as what people would write in posts. Now treatment received to students or any physical threats or something like that, now I would expect the campus to do a little bit more. But just people giving nasty looks, I mean, we had students in the front and taking pictures, going, Look, it's a Black Student Center, wow, what is this? And they come make jokes. We had groups of students that would dare each other--groups of students who were not Black--they would dare each other to run in the Black Student Center and say something and run out. So that happened every week for probably the first semester, that entire first semester, second semester we were open. So it was a lot, it was a lot of little things like that. And people would come in and just try to crack a joke and, “I'm not Black, can I even stand in here” and then laugh and run out. Yeah. And that's again, disheartening, but that's not an actual rule that you broke. I mean, so what could we expect to happen? But it did expose the unaccepting behavior that a lot of people on campus had when it came towards Black people and Black students. So that behavior got exposed. So I would say that's a good thing. Even though it's a little bit of a struggle to go through it, but I would rather the truth come out. So, you know, people kind of get this from campus climate surveys, but we get to see it happen in real time. We get to see the actual discomfort or people saying, “No, I can't go in there.” But we didn't really see all of these things happening in the same manner with the other spaces! You know, you don't hear people saying, “Well, I don't belong to that racial group so I'm not going to walk in that space. I don't belong to this group. I'm not going to walk in that space. There’s a line I can't cross.” I didn't see these things. So if it happened, I don't know about it, but I didn't see these things. Well, we constantly got that. We had people that would walk up with their group of friends, one Black student, and then four or five other students. And they would walk up to the center and then everybody would stop right at the door and a Black student would keep walking in and turn around and go, “Hey, what are y'all doing? Y'all can come in here.” “Are you sure? Are we allowed in here?” And we had so much of that and it still happens now, but it happens rarely now. It was a common occurrence every day. So it took a while for accepting of having a Black Student Center. And that was from top to bottom. Ayana Ford: So on a more positive note. So you said you attended the Black Student Center’s grand opening? Jake Northington: Yes. Ayana Ford: How did it feel to actually go into the center for the first time? Jake Northington: (laughter) I had already been in the center for the first time months earlier. Remember, so I helped pick out some of the items that we put in there. I helped, you know, I selected all of the books that we chose. I actually went down to do the purchase of the bookshelf. Went out and picked the items that went on the wall with some of the art pieces. So I had already been in the center, months and months and months, many times before it opened. And then we had to do planning to actually have the grand opening. So of course I worked there, so I was a part of the planning process. So it wasn't like a shock and awe to me because I was a part of the planning process. But I do understand how much that meant to the whole campus. But again, I'm coming from a different perspective. I'm coming from a city. That's nice. This doesn't give me an aha or shock. For me, it was more of a, Okay, good. This is the first steppingstone for us. We needed to have this. And this is now something that can become a foundation. Like this space is always going to be here. Now let's continue to build some programs now that are going to help Black students on throughout the future. So that was more where my mindset was. Ayana Ford: Okay. To backtrack, how did the planning go? How'd you make those decisions on what needs to be put up and presented in the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: Well, I was--I just knew it had to be positive promotion of Black people, because all that's ever talked about in many of our classes is if they bring up the Black community, they're talking about slavery, they're talking about riots, they're talking about social upheaval and, or they're talking about sports. So, culturally we're not seeing a promotion, or any type of surrounding positive discussions with Black people, staff and faculty, students, anything, because everything we were mentioning, it includes the faculty and staff too. You know, they've been here for years and years. Some of them had been here two decades. Everything our Black students are facing just for two to four or five years, the faculty and staff has faced the entire time of their employment. So this includes them as well. I knew that everything that went up in here had to support the Black culture (technical difficulties)-- pick out. Hey, let's get some nice photos of Blackness in its most positive light. Let's get some photos of Black men, Black women, Black families, Black children. And then the books I selected were particular books of some of the most famous Black writers and scholars that--these are books that need to be read. I created this whole list. I went and talked to other people ; other people added to the list. So it was a collaborative effort to make these things happen. And then we took a few people with us and we walked around and we just picked out items out of certain stores, you know, we looked online. And it was like, yes, these things are necessary. So you know, we have a big painting of Marcus Garvey. We have a--there's just so many different things that was just necessary. So that's kinda what we thought about. We thought about the past. We thought about the faculty and staff. And then we thought about the current students and the students to come, what would work to unify it all. And it's an uplifting thing to view and to see when you walk in here. And we also had a lot of students that are born in Africa, but they moved from Africa and they now live here in the San Diego area. Some of these students even brought things from home to help decorate the space. So, and that was, you know, they did that on their own. And they came and asked, they said, Hey, can we donate this? So we can put some of these African pieces in the space. So everybody added to it so that wasn't, you know--it was a part of my job, but everybody added to it. Ayana Ford: Hmm. So how do you feel like the art and the decor of the Black Student Center helped the center? Like how do you feel like it impacted the feeling of the Center? Jake Northington: Oh, a little more edifying. You tend to feel a little more at home. You tend to feel a little more comfortable. You walk in and you feel the culture and you just--now you like being on campus. Like you don't just run from class and leave campus and never come back until your next class at 8am. It allowed students to hang around a little bit more, which allows them to now talk a little bit more, which now allows them to build more relationships. So these things were not happening before the Center. And then we can't just have it empty too. So now when you kind of decorate the area in culture, it just helps with all of these things. And then now you constantly have positive images and then positive literature and all of these different things to connect a Black person to go, “Wait a minute! This has been done before.” Because we had this big picture of Tulsa in 1921, Tulsa, Oklahoma, and it listed how many hospitals, how many banks, how many schools, how many restaurants, how many train and truck systems that existed through this picture of the people. And we had a picture like that of the Harlem Renaissance. And for Black students, faculty and staff, to walk in and see this, it reminds you again, Hey, look at what our people have done throughout the times. I'm here now in a university, it'll help you like motivate you a little bit more to push a little further, to do a little bit more. That's kind of how the artwork and the people kind of work together. And this is what makes it so much, so necessary to kind of culturally decorate the place. Ayana Ford: Hmm. Can you tell me a bit about the early focuses of the Black Student Center? Like the initiatives, programs, events, and focuses? Jake Northington: Yeah. So one of the main early focuses was, again, where all the Black people? So our main focus was we have to get the Black people in the center. So it didn't happen fast. So, you know, if you go to the school right now, it's like a regular thing. But it wasn't. And half of them worked there. So we had to promote the space. As far as this place is here! It exists. Come stop by. Let's go. If you're walking into the USU and you go stop and get a bagel and some coffee, take two more steps. Here's the center, you know, so students would come through and keep passing it and keep passing it and not think because the space was already there. It was just, it was a different room. So the room got rearranged. And then once they put up the sign and everything, it's--all of the spaces have a sign. It doesn't stand out. It's silver and black. All of the spaces have a sign. That's not going to point it out so much. So you kind of have to stop. So what we would do is we would stand in front of the, in front of the center! And kind of stand outside. And two or three of us are standing out there, like during our work hours and stop students, “Hey, hey, have you seen the Black Student Center? We just opened.” You know, we're doing this, we're doing this, we've got this program, this event coming up. And then we would, during U-hour, we would be out there and have a table and we would stop students. And keep telling us in class, other students that work there, they would make announcements in class. A big part was to get the students in the center. So we all had to keep stopping students and keep telling them. That was a daily thing. Hey, you need to tell at least five or ten people today about the space and keep telling, keep telling. So we kept going, kept going, kept going, kept going, and kept going. And then, the Black faculty and staff had a lot of help in that because they used to do like Black student welcomes. And it was a little smaller than it is now. Because now all of these entities get to (technical difficulties) and the Black faculty and staff would do like a Black student welcome. And then now you're able to put all these things together and now it made the welcome a little bigger. And now you have a place to bring the Black students to, and you're not just talking to them outside the building. So this all now started to bring more students in. And then during the orientations, we're now allowed to have a table at the orientations all during the summer. So now this helped with recruiting. So recruiting people to the space was number one. Number two we're trying to get in the school like as a student in the school, when now we got the students here, we need to get them in the space. We're all trying to recruit high school students to the school. So we will go around to the different high schools and speak to the different high schools. We also would go speak to the different community colleges in the San Diego area and let them know, Hey, San Marcos is a place to be. We have a Black Student Center as well. And that kind of helped bring in some of the Black students. So even while I worked there, I ended up seeing about eight Black students that I met at high school and recruited coming to San Marcos. So that was definitely a good feeling to see people that I spoke to when they were ninth to tenth grade and tried to, Hey, you just--you should, you should come to San Marcos. You know, we're building the Black culture there. You live here. Your parents are here. Bring in you in your parents and then them and their parents would show up to orientation. You talk to them again. And then they ended up making a decision to stay there. We actually got to directly affect and help Black students come to the campus. Without having a Black Student Center, we don't have as good a sell. So it's kind of helped improve Black students even applying to the school. Another thing was about grades. We need recidivism. We need to, we need to keep students here. So we know that freshman year is a big year for a lot of Black students. And we have a large amount of Black students that drop out in their freshman year, all throughout the CSU and UC systems. We need to impact that. We need to get those numbers down. We don't need people dropping out so much. So a part of this is there was a mentorship and that was a tutor program. And then the center connected with the tutoring center to try to help students and we let them come in here and give a, give a lot of presentations. And then maybe we can get some Black students working in the tutoring center and they do their hours here in our space. So that was an initiative that was pushed. And I was actually a tutor as well for some of the Black students. So now where these Black students may be uncomfortable or may not feel like they can get as much help from some professors or some other classmates or anything like that, they now were able to get that help in the Black Student Center. And then another thing was programming things. So getting students in there, recruiting students or recidivism and increasing people's GPA. And then, then we also got programming. And with that programming we're--we want to bring Black specific programming. That's going to increase students, graduating, going into higher education, learning more about their history, learning more about politics and society. And then what ways that they can maybe get through, past, and over traumas that are facing the whole Black community, what ways and what measures they can use moving forward. Ayana Ford: So do you think that's the main purpose of the center’s creation in your opinion? Jake Northington: For me? Yes, but I think other people would give different responses because I think everybody gets something different from the center. When you aim to do this, this, this, this, and this, and now each one of us can take what we need from the space. Like, Okay, I really need this. I really need that. I really need that. So if nothing else everybody loves it because it is a space for Black students. So if nothing else, I would think that would be the one thing everybody could say. Ayana Ford: Do you feel like that purpose should be--it's especially being accomplished now? Jake Northington: Yes, it definitely is. Yeah. Ayana Ford: I'm glad to hear. So what has been the impact that you see the Black Student Center is doing on the campus today? Jake Northington: It's bringing Black students and faculty together every day in an ongoing situation that never (technical difficulties) never was given a space, a space for Black faculty and students to operate together. So a lot of Black faculty would put on events. They would put on presentations ; they would give workshops and things like this. Well, now having a center, this could happen right here in the center. So now we have directly faculty and staff that are Black, giving presentations to Black students. So where we may not have as many Black teachers, all of us, all of the Black students now have an opportunity to have that back and forth in some of those mentorships. And getting some of those can, maybe they can get help with resume writing, maybe they can get help with mental health and counseling. So all of these things were able to happen now to have that space for the faculty and staff to kinda mix and mingle with the students in a professional setting to where we can make these things happen now. Some of those lacking areas that we have for Black students, those things were now able to get accomplished because we have a space to put these people in, in an everyday basis. So that was a lot tougher to do when you just have Black students walking around and then you, you may never cross paths. A lot of faculty and staff got to meet students they would never normally meet because we have a hub now – we have a home base. So I think that's one of the most important things that have happened. And so many students now are more engaging of each other. Where come from all the Black people speak to each other. I came out here It wasn't so much the same because people are more spread out and they may be not used to seeing so many Black people like that in one space. I actually heard that from many students from the Murrieta Riverside County area that came to San Marcos, most of them had the same response. “It was ten Black people at my high school,” stuff like that. Every day I was the only Black person in class. Well, now all of those students are here and they're sharing those same stories. And now they can kind of help each other out and help get through some of these things and talk about, you know, how that may have affected their identity, has affected their personality, or affected their self-esteem. So then we can address some of these things. I mean, that's just some of the things that have come about, since having a Black Student Center, Ayana Ford: How do you feel like the Black Student Center impacted you personally? Jake Northington: I mean, hey, I got a job (laughter). I wasn't--personally, it gave me a space to use some of my skills. I think that's how it impacted me the most. So I was able to practice my photography. I didn't take pictures before I came to school, but those things kind of happened at the same time. I started working at the Center like right at the same time. All of that kind of came together at once. So now I got to practice my photography and I've since put out a bunch of photobooks and I've done so many different photo projects on campus for the Black Student Center. And of course, archived all of those pictures. The twenty thousand photos I've taken over the course of a few years. It gave me time to practice my study. So my actual program is the Visual and Performing Arts with an emphasis in art and technology. Everything from class with my occupation and with going through different programs within the center. I was able to bring everything from the center and all of those became my projects for class, all of my homework projects, all of my midterm things I had to do in art classes. I got everything from the Black Student Center, even some of my sociology classes and papers I had to write. I was able to get all of my information I needed from the center. So then other students did the same thing as well. If I have a paper to write and I needed, and I need books to read, I go right to the center. And I got all these, these books to choose from, so I don't have stuff that already exists, or I need to interview students cause I'm doing my psych class, and I need to interview a couple of students, here they are right here in the center. I have to do these surveys for, for this class or that class. And I get to come out and hand out my surveys in the center. So many students were able to take advantage of those things, where they wouldn't be able to do before, because before I have to stand outside of the USU (University Student Union) and ask people to help me, Hey, would you like to take this survey for my class? Hey, would you like to? And that's what we were doing before I had to do that for one of my classes. Once we got the space, we could do it right here and get assistance with your projects, with homework, everything. And then we also were able to--I was so happy that I was able to help different students sign up for classes because so many students coming out of high school, don't look at college in the whole scope of: this is what I need to do freshman year, sophomore, junior, senior year. And I need to be transitioning into resume writing and application to grad school. All of those things don't necessarily hit our community in the same way it does for everybody else. We have to--and just me being able to help some of the students. I mean, I really enjoyed that cause you're able to go through an online process of signing up for classes. And now I could sit directly and talk to them through of, Hey, let's take two hard classes, two easy classes and one medium class and that'll be your five classes. Don't just put them all up here, you know? What they put out here for people to take is a skeleton to work off of. You don't necessarily have to just take these classes in a row like that because you're coming from a lower economic area, maybe from downtown San Diego, maybe they didn't concentrate so much in mathematics. So now you need to take a few math classes before you get to college math--then okay, that's fine! Now let's take that at a junior college or let's take one of the lower maths we can, online. Let's take this, this, this, or how about this? Some of us started to take classes together so we could help each other and not just be in a class by ourselves and not have anybody to bounce ideas off of, or ask for assistance with our homework. And now we can share a book. A lot of those things now we're able to happen because we had the space. And I was just so happy to be able to help other students because I didn't have a difficult time through school. I mean, I got all A’s and everything and a couple of B’s. That's all, that's what I had the whole time, San Marcos. So, you know, I didn't have a problem with class whatsoever, but I knew other people did so to be able to help people, and help them with papers and help them with getting their courses together, help them with any remediation they needed. And it's just to help your people. When that's your intent, it feels good to be able to do that. And I think a lot of people got that out of the center too. Not just me. Ayana Ford: What do you expect to see next for the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: Hmm. That five-year anniversary! That's what I expect to see next. But I mean, John (Rawlins III, Director of the Black Student Center) is doing such an amazing job, this guy needs a Nobel peace prize. It's just so much that that's happening. It's almost (unclear) so he does, he does a lot of work in collaboration with other (student identity and inclusion) centers. So, so much collaboration has happened. It seems like he has that down pat, but for the center itself, more programs! Like a wider touch in San Diego. We need to really get San Marcos on the map in the same level as San Diego State. You walk around anywhere in San Diego County, and everybody's heard of San Diego State. So it's an option. It's 13-year-olds that have heard of San Diego State, so it's an option. We need to make CSU San Marcos and option for Black students. So this means we have to do more promotion. We have to stretch out more to the middle schools and high schools and getting the word out. We have to do more collaboration and more efforts to do programming outside of the campus, or at least show ourselves outside of the campus and people need to know that there's a Black hub of people at Cal State San Marcos. So that's one thing that I would like to see that needs to happen. One thing that is in the works is the Black alumni chapter. I started everything rolling with that and it just pulling people in to be a part of it and everybody can play whatever role they choose. So to have a Black alumni network. Now we have something for our graduates to fill a need. “I'm looking for employment. I am looking to go to grad school, I'm looking to get a PhD. I'm looking to relocate.” Whatever, we need an alumni network to help with that. So for us to not have our own alumni network would do us a disservice. Just continuing to build that Black network up at San Marcos. So I paid my alumni dudes. I'm full alumni, lifetime membership. Now I'm going to help support in any type of way I can. So, let me see what else? I would like to see us have a bigger space. As our student population is growing, we need a bigger space. These were, this was a very small room, and they knocked the wall down to try to open it up a little bit. This was a very small prayer room before it became the Black student center. It needs to be bigger space. I think they (other student centers on campus) had more of an intention of this is going to be a space for this particular thing. They're a little more wide open and they have a little more space. But when it came to the Black Student Center, there was not a designated area. So they had to find a space and kinda adjust the space to give to us, but it was just a smaller space. Well, the Black student population is growing. We also need the space to be used by Black faculty and staff. I would like to see us get a bigger space, much bigger space, at least three times. It's entirely too small. I would like to see the center get a graduate assistantship. So like the rest of the spaces have, there should be a graduate assistantship at the space and also a user space for, I would like to see more archives. And that's the whole point of this project. That's why I--I mean, I don't know if they told you, but this was my idea. I came up with this idea to add this project. After I was involved in another project I did where I got interviewed and I was like, you know what? It would be great if we can do this for the center, because this can't be lost. All of these things that so many, so many Black students that came here did--maybe even the Black students way before us. And then some of their names get lost and they don't get mentioned. We have to recognize all of the Black people that made the effort to get us this space because this space is a foundation now. And while we have the time and it's only been a couple of years, let's get that story told, let's put it out there, let's set the foundation and let's keep building the archives of the space. So I would like all the Black students, faculty and staff involved to be a part of this. This is something to look back to, like this was done, this was established, and we all came together to make this happen. So that does a lot of great work as far as inspiration. If you get a Black student as a freshman coming into the school and they see this was done by Black students, faculty and staff came together to make this happen. And it was just this recent, you know, three, four years ago. I mean that does, that does a good job for inspiration. And you get to actually talk to the people who help make this happen? That does a good deal of inspiring students to want to be active. And the more active you are as a student, the more likely you're going to stay in school, more likely we're going to graduate. So we want this to just keep cycling through and keep building and keep building. Those are some of my thoughts as far as moving forward with the center. Ayana Ford: To backtrack on what you said, do you know, do you have any connection with the different leaders in this project and their contribution to the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: Oh, oh you want to hear some names? Ayana Ford: Yeah. Jake Northington: Oh, okay. Well, (Tiffaney Boyd) the ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) president and she was also, think she was president or vice president of BSU (Black Student Union) at one point. So she's definitely--I mean, if it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have the center. Like we have some major names and, and, so her. Jamaéla Johnson, she was also an officer, maybe vice president or president of the BSU at a point. They all kind of, you know, took turns being the president. Everybody was the president at different times. And she was also at ASI. Then we have Akilah Green who was (unclear) one point. And she was also an ASI. So you had these three Black women at ASI during all of--they did most of the legwork, as far as the paperwork, the resolution, the promotion of it, bringing this information to the BSU, letting us know what's going on, the ins and outs of all of the meetings. Because I, you know, me as a student and other students, we could go to some meetings, but we were not going all of the meetings. You know? So as an ASI member, they were there for like every meeting and they had other meetings with administration and stuff like that. That we were not going to. So they would say, Wait this is the process, this is what's happening. Now. This is what's happening. Now, this is what the student body can do. This, this, this, and this. And then they also established partnerships with other people outside of the Black community on campus that helps support this resolution. So, without those three we wouldn't have this space. I hope their picture goes up in the center. That's one of the things I pushed for from day one, day one when the center opened and I hope this eventually happens: their picture and their name should go up as far as these are the most significant people, Black students (in the process of getting the Center), they should be mentioned. Ayana Ford: Speaking of programs, by the way, you had mentioned earlier, have you been involved in making any programs specifically? Jake Northington: Yeah, I was more events. More events. Some of the programming has been more collaborative. It wasn't just a simple thing. And most of the programs are mimicking other programs, because these are programs that need to exist in all of the centers. So like a mentorship program, we made one for us. Or the tutoring program. Again, that's something that's needed everywhere. Or you know, we--some of the ideas I came up with was, Hey, we need somebody to come speak about this. We need somebody to come speak about this. We need somebody to speak about this. So things we couldn't get people to speak about, like maybe historical context things, or certain things as far as how, how we're affected by different weather patterns, anything, whatever you want to think of. Art, Black art, or Black music, any not really a specific major for somebody to speak about, maybe not. I started to create PowerPoint presentations and create classes and go do the research myself. And then I would give some of these classes in the Black Student Center to different faculty and staff and students. And different people would come in and I would give the class right here on the big screen in the center. And you know, that was something I was able to do, so I did quite a few of those. So as an individual, I did some of those things, but everything else was pretty much a collaborative work. So Black Panthers, of the Black Panther Party. People that still kind of live in the San Diego region that maybe worked in Oakland or worked in the San Diego, L.A. region, when they were teenagers operating in the Black Panther Party, those people came to speak. Creating events such as Black Women's Appreciation. So that was, that was another event that I had a lot of hand into. I was like, We should do this. Like we should appreciate all the Black faculty and staff. So we need to make an event for Black faculty and staff, and then for the women, and kind of gave out and created our own letters of recommendation or a letter of appreciation that was handed out to all of the people. And then, and of course I was there taking pictures. So it was more about all of us sitting together at the table and kind of tossing out ideas. Everybody kind of played a different hand in that. And then the ideas that made sense, we got together and move forward. Ideas that maybe didn't make so much sense, we kind of held it on for later. So that's kind of the process of how that worked. Ayana Ford: You also mentioned taking photographs at the events and such. So how do you think that impacted the people around at the Black Student Center? Seeing themselves? Jake Northington: That's, again, that's such a great impact because as of right now, there's a huge picture in the center right now covering one of the walls. And it's a picture I took of one of the Black students that graduated. And it's just--it may be the biggest impact. Because as we know, just visibility, you know, positive promotion and propaganda of Black students, when you go on that website for any (unclear) that pop up, almost are never Black. You know, when you walk through the halls and you see the pictures on the walls, they're just, you may not ever see a Black person. When you just walk around campus, it just may never happen. So, you don't feel as invested or as included in your own campus. So to see yourself in these photos, to see yourself on the wall, it just really emboldens people to want to be here, to love the choice that they made for being at that school. And it just helps them enjoy school a lot more. I saw so many eyes light up or when I would take pictures at the event, I would make a slideshow and then it would be up on the screen, just rotating all day. When people walked in, they would eat lunch or hang out or do a little homework or whatever they did, and it would just rotate. And then on the regular, right after the event, two or three days later, everybody's in the center, like, Where's the photo, where's the photos? And then they're looking through and everybody's pointing and laughing and go, Oh, remember this, remember this? It just keeps adding to the enjoyment and experience of just being there and being on the campus. I mean, I really love (unclear). I think it just, it just, it helps in a way that you can't even measure. So to have pictures of yourself, enjoying college with other Black students here, it's immeasurable. Ayana Ford: Are there any other questions I should have asked that I did not? Jake Northington: (laughs) Let me see. Maybe, I don't know. What are we doing now? Are we actively doing the things to continue with the mission statement? Has the mission statement changed? Are we, are we on the mission right now? Do we have a new mission now, now that it's been three-plus years? Ayana Ford: Hmm. So what do you think? What's the new mission-- Jake Northington: Or something like that. Ayana Ford: So what do you think-- Jake Northington: I think the same mission. Yeah. I think the same mission should continue. And I think there is a new mission though. So a new mission would be to get more Black people hired as staff and faculty on campus. Being a student there over the years, a lot of the Black students that graduated, they're gone, that's it. You don't see them again. We don't get a lot of Black students hired now back into the campus. But I do see this from other groups. And then I see this across all other campuses and colleges, universities. We need to get a push for our Black graduates to be rehired back into their alma mater of CSU San Marcos. I think that needs to happen. The school is getting bigger. So since I left, they built a couple more dorms. They built like the dining facility. They built quite a few more ; the Extended Learning Building, think they're going to build another parking structure. So as these things continue to increase so should our Black faculty and staff and student population. I'd like to see a push to get the campus more involved in making those things happen, because that shouldn't be a job just put on us. The campus should be involved in the recruitment of Black students and the hiring of more Black faculty and staff. We don't need to be an exchange situation where, okay, we lost three Black faculty members. We're going to go hire two. It shouldn't be happening like that. We should be expansively growing as--as while the campus is growing. So that definitely needs to happen. And I’d like to see a lot more support from the campus, as far as the other students go, and other faculty. Black Student Center events–we should be able to look around and see a sea of people that are not Black. We should see the support of everybody who professes to support all students. Then you can reflect your support by showing up. So we have a few people from the Dean of Students, we got a few people from the other centers that have been consistently supporting the Black Student Center the whole time, but we don't see a grand amount. We don't see large amounts. To have 17,000 plus people on campus, we should see some of that when there was a Black Student Center event, just like it is when there's an event for another center or event for another space or event for somewhere else. That same support of showing up. I'd like to see that happen moving forward. And that should be a point of emphasis because that's only going to keep growing us even at a higher rate. Ayana Ford: So how do you think that the campus can reach out some more? You had mentioned before through middle schools and high schools. So you have any other ideas of how they can reach out more to Black students? Jake Northington: Yes. The Office of Communications could do a (technical difficulties). I think that has changed now. When I was there, I didn't see it, see it as much, but I still get the emails. I see it a little bit more right now, so that's good. And they can keep pushing the events. As the Black Student Center or the Black Student Union, or other Black clubs and organizations that are putting on events, the Office of Communications can do a great job with supporting those events by promoting them on all the digital signages and all the flyers. ASI could do a better job of supporting, the USU could do a better job. So just support us by promoting our events when we put them out there. Great help. Instead, Black students having to go person to person to try to get somebody to show up to the Black Student Center events. And that's a struggle that not every other group has specifically. Some people may, some people may not, but that really hinders the Black Student Center’s effect--as far as it could have a greater effect if we got more people. Everybody has to help us with that. That's not a burden that should just be put on the Black students. And also we need to work on lowering that, those parking passes (Ford and Northington laugh). That’s always a fight. Ayana Ford: It really is. So over the years, you've seen over the years have you seen a giant shift the way Black students are seen on San Marcos campus, through the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: I wouldn't say giant shift. I can't really speak to that because everything that we were facing on the campus, we pretty much still face. So I don't know if I can answer that question. I've been away from the campus for like over a year now. I can’t really answer that. But while I was there, it was the same wall in front of us the whole time I was there. So once I left, I don't know how much that has changed. So the, like the comfort level of people, the hesitance to help or support, or the hesitation to be around us as much. And I can't speak to how much that's changed. I know some people in some areas have gotten a little more comfortable, but as an overall campus, I don't know about that. I dunno. I have though--I mean, the new president seems like she's doing a good job and it seems like it's on track for that to happen, so I would say I would put it that way. It seems like they're on the track, on the right track. Ayana Ford: (technical difficulties, interview stopped recording) So, do you, are you able to see the record button now? Jake Northington: Nope. But if you’re-- Ayana Ford: It's saying recording on my side. Do you see? Jake Northington: This recording? I hope you get-- Ayana Ford: Okay. It says it's back to recording. Did the box come up for you? Jake Northington: Nope. Ayana Ford: Okay. It's recording. So I want to go back a bit on your photography, on how you talked about taking photos for the Black Student Center. So you had mentioned that you had books in the Black Student Center. Jake Northington: Yes. Yes. Ayana Ford: So what was then, so what were the books in the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: I'm glad you asked that, I've got them right here, since we're talking about it. I didn't, I didn't think we were going to talk about it, but since we gonna talk about it and let's talk about it. So, again, this is a study I did through the Black Student Center for one of my classes. So I took an independent study in my photography class, and I wanted to do similar to like a yearbook, but for Black students on campus. So for the years to come, people would always remember these times and that this happened and that this was around because we don't have a concerted effort of: here are the archives of photos of Black people on this campus. So since that doesn't exist, I was like, I'm going to start it. So the idea was every year to go around and capture some very good photos, as much as I could, of just different Black people on campus and around campus. And then I put a focus to it. Because I want it to add a social aspect to it. I wanted to make a corrective measure. It's an attempt to make a correction of a social issue. So, and then all the books go together. They create one sentence. So the titles of every book create one sentence. So this is the first book. (Northington holds up a book to the camera, soon starts flipping through its pages) It's called Hueman and it's spelled H-U-E meaning like, the hue or the tone or the skin color. I can show you a few pictures throughout the book. And I created these books to kind of change how people saw Black students on campus. And this was specific to the Black men. So, walking around campus, a lot of (Black men) are considered, you know, something negative. People love to use that same stereotypical word as thug or criminal, and, and we need to detach those verbs and those negative nouns to black men. So the idea for this book was, Hey, be yourself, be who you are, be what you are, and just sit here and give me a natural calm, solemn look. And we want to capture that. And I wanted to also show the campus. So a part of this was to show that the entire campus too. So we want to walk around and show the campus different areas of the campus, all different. And these Black men have a different mixture of ethnic backgrounds. And then we just wanted to go around and get a little bit of everybody. And when they saw this book, (laughter) I mean, people lost their minds. It's like, Oh, wow. Oh, wow. This is amazing. This is this. And that's the best part of it for me. How well people received the book was the best part to me. So I went to add a positive adverb. So when you saw this Black face of a Black man and you attach it to that adverb, this is kind of how propaganda works. So propaganda, it can be positive or negative. When you see a news article or a magazine and they put a picture and words, you combine that together and you get a thought in your head and they could kind of help curb some stereotypes that people have of Black men. So this one says philosophical. So I want you to be able to see this face and know that this person is philosophical. And let's add that together. And I actually know most of the people in his book. So this guy was--he worked in the art building and you know, that wouldn't come across if people just use the stereotypes. And then this is a Polaroid picture of me in the center, one of the first semesters working there. And in the book, I would put the thank yous and then I would translate it into an African language, so it also becomes a teaching tool. So this book is translated into Bantu and Bantu is spoken in South Africa by the Xhosa tribe, in Cape town, South Africa. So, and then this was completed in 2017, the first year of the center, so that's book one. Well, man, I had to keep it going. I had to keep it going. I didn't think I was going to keep it going, but everybody loved the book so much. It's like, All right, let me keep it going. (Northington holds up another book) So then this is the women's book, and this is actually the photo that's up in the center right now. So the big photo, it is on the wall in a Black Student Center. And this is, I love this photo. So, Janeice Young that's who that is, Janeice Young. I think she graduated in 2018? Yeah. Janeice Young. She worked in the-- So then I'll put a little bit, a little poem here. That's only my words that I wrote. And then this book is for Black women specifically. So I wanted to promote Black women being who they are, being them natural selves, loving school with them smiling and enjoying life because I wanted to get rid of, or aleve them in some out of the stereotype of being an angry Black woman. Of being loud or being obnoxious. So we're--we want to get away from those types of stereotypes and that type of negative casting. So then, just went around and taking all of these good photos. And I mean, they took a while. Some of these opportunities were like, I would have to take seventy or eighty photos to--and then pick out the one really good one that I liked. And I was able to enter some of these in art competitions, which went pretty well. That photo is actually taken in the center early on center. The center looks a lot different. So, you know, that's one of the archival pieces anymore, its a lot different. So now these people have all different majors, again, all different mixtures. Some of these people are from different countries around the planet. And I wanted--to kind of this be like a promotional tool as well. So I started to bring these to the orientations as well and show other students ; “Look, look, you can be in the next book.” And it really inspired a lot of students. And that's the SBSB (Social and Behavioral Sciences) building. So I just got all positive reviews ; everybody that was in the book, everybody that saw the book, everybody just keeps saying positive things about it. So I think it was a good idea. It ended up being a great idea. And some of these people worked in the center before, like both of them. So I think she's graduating right now. She worked in the center. And then this is more archival footage. There's--the Extended Learning Building is now back here, and another dorm building that didn’t exist then. And then this is one of the dramas--and this is one of the feeder campuses MiraCosta. So it's a community college that feeds into this school. And then this was taken inside of the USU (University Student Union). So it was right in front of the campus. I love it. I love it. And then again, the teaching tool in this book, this was translated into Somali and it's spoken in Yemen, Djibouti, Somalia, Kenya. And then I also get to get a little help from some of the students who are from African countries, and they help translate. So it's a whole group effort. And then, that book is called “Solar Amalgamations.” And this is the third and final book (Northington holds up a third book). This is the one I most recently completed before I left campus. And this book is called “We Are,” so the focus of this book was to show us together. So first we had the book about the men and changing the negative images in the book and the book about women and changing a negative stereotype. And then now I want to bring these people together and show men and women together, you know, enjoying a campus, the campus life, something that we rarely get to see Black students doing. You may see some Black students in diversity photos, or something like that, students together and some of these photos. So again, I put some nice little positive words and a little bit of a poem. And then that's the front steps of the campus and you just got students walking around and much of this looks like a commercial. It looks just like a, you know, a little magazine article or something like that. And that's the feel I wanted to give off. I wanted people to be able to look through here and just see, hey, just regular students. This is Keenan. He plays a guitar all the time. And my man, Sam, he's a skateboarder. So we get to see a lot of these things. So ideally enjoying campus together and that's and that's a really good photo. So I'm sure they're going to look back on this ten, fifteen, twenty years from now and remember that day and what they were laughing about. So, that's the point. I mean, I love it. You might recognize some of these people, maybe, maybe not. That was the point of this book and, let's get to the end. Oh, there go--my favorite two people right there, Ms. Marilyn (McWilliams), Ms. Ariel (Stevenson). You will be interviewing them soon. Shamar. And then some of these students now work in the Black Student Center. It's just a whole, well, just circle to circle. Kiki, Taj – he worked in the center for a while. So we got a little bit of everybody. And then and at the end of each book, I always put a photo of myself too, just to, you know, who the artist was. And this is actually a photo with two photos from the previous book that's in the art show at the campus. They had an art show on campus and they asked me to put my stuff in the art show. So I submitted it and they got picked for some of the final pieces. A lot of students submitted and then mine got picked. And so it was just a good reflection to show it in the book, actually a photo from the art show. And then this one was translated into Swahili. Swahili is spoken in Tanzania, Congo and Kenya as well, or Rwanda and other places. So, and just show us there holding hands. And then all the--all three books, the sentence that it completes is: “We are human solar amalgamations.” So those are the three titles. “We are,” “Hueman,” and “Solar Amalgamations.” And that pretty much loosely means, “We are stars.” That's what that means. And then that completes one project. And now I'm going to move on to work on a different project for Black people. Ayana Ford: So by keeping these archives, would you say that--how would you say that it impacted, the art, I mean, the environment of the Black Student Center? Because you can go back and look at the history, how do you think that impacted students? Jake Northington: I think it makes students really feel good about who they are and what they are. It just makes us feel good. It's like, Okay, I can do this too! And then it was just done last year or the year before, or just, there's been a history of Black people before me that came here as a freshmen or sophomore, and they made these things happen. I can also do it. These people got involved and you start to see some of the same faces. Oh, she was also the president here. She was also the vice president here. She was also in the Academic Senate. She did this, this, this, and this. She graduated ; she got these awards. If she can do it, So can I. If he can do it, so can I. So to continue to see people that look like you do these things at the same school, again, it's only as inspiration. And it helps a lot of our students coming in to even give more effort, to be involved, to be around, to start to do some of the work themselves and to--and now we can kind of pull some of these people in to get into doing things as such as going to graduate school, or now they might be more apt to accepting help in the areas that they need help in, because that becomes a hurdle. A lot of students don't want to ask for help because they don't want to feel unintelligent. They don't want to ask for support because they don't want to feel like they're in poverty. And they don't want to feel judged. Well, that's a real thing. So if we can show a little more, if we can speak a little more about our experiences so we have--we get to show up as a graduate or as a senior and say, Hey, look, I had to stretch out a few dollars throughout the month. I had tough, tough times in this particular history class or that particular class. This is why I reached out for help. I went to the food pantry for this. I went to the tutoring lounge for this. I went to this for this. Now that allows a link in a chain to be made, to help Black students succeed more when that's the point: to keep them here and to graduate them and prepare them for life after the university. So I think just the pictures up, just having the photos add to that. Each thing we do on campus for the Black students and for Black Student Center all adds to the overall goal of keeping students there, recruiting students and graduating students, it all adds. And now building that Black alumni chapter. Now we take it even a step further. So every part of this process was necessary. Every single person that was involved was necessary, and I just think they all should be mentioned and named. And whether it has a big plaque made to put everybody's name on it, or we definitely need to get that Tiffany, Jamaéla, and Akila photo and plaque up in the center, you know, stuff like that before too many years, it'd be forgotten. You don't need these events or these situations to be forgotten. These people should be remembered. And everybody needs to know that this occurred. Because we have to think back: 1989 the school was established. There have been many Black people to come to this school since 1989. Well, since then many Black people have tried to make change on this campus. We may never know their names. We may never know the change they was trying to create. We may never know about the five, eight, ten attempts to get a Black Student Center, but we can't let stuff like that continue. We need to reach back and try to find those stories and we need to establish something to move forward. That's what makes--we're so lucky that we got Gezai (Berhane) here because Gezai’s the first Black graduate, so we could kind of get some of those stories from then to now. And we can kind of connect the 30-year path of this campus and Black action on this campus. And we can connect those thirty years together and kind of tell that story and kind of add and add to it, add to that. I really love that about this project and I'm just so happy it was able to happen and that people want to be involved with this. Because this is going to affect the Black community forever on this campus. Ayana Ford: Yeah, absolutely agree. Well, that is all the questions I had. Do you have any more, anything else you would like to add? Jake Northington: Yeah. I’d like to thank Ms. Marilyn McWilliams and Ms. Ariel Stevenson, because I probably would not still have stayed on the campus, and I might've transferred, if it wasn’t for people like them. Because they add a good element of support that you may never get. You know, because when I got here, we didn't have a center. It's (hard) to find spaces to get some, you know, just to be able to go talk out ideas, to be able to go, just relax a bit, to get to step away from the campus while you're still on campus. So, I was able to go visit their office and just sit down and get some little, I guess they would call it counseling or mentorship or whatever people describe that as, but to be able to just sit down and just talk to them and be like, All right, this is what's going on campus right now. This is happening. This is happening. And they were able to give me (advice), Hey, you can go here to get that handled. You can talk to this. You can go to this meeting. You know, to have people to be able to point me in the right directions to get some of these things accomplished. If it wasn't for them, I wouldn't be able to walk into all these directions. And I probably wouldn’t have been as involved as I was. When they encourage all of the Black students--and those are two staff members that show up to everything that's been done by the Black Student Center and by the BSU. And they've all, they've consistently shown up, those two. Most of the Black students have probably seen them or spoken to them or even met with them quite a few times. So without them, it would be a totally different story, so (laughs) I can't leave anybody out. Ayana Ford: Well, thank you so much for allowing me to interview you for this project. And thank you so much. Jake Northington: Thank you! (interview concluded but then started again) Ayana Ford: So Mr. Northington what is your major? What was your major at (California State University) San Marcos. Jake Northington: So, I came to San Marcos in the spring 2016 and I graduated fall 2019. So my major was Visual and Performing Arts with an emphasis in art and technology. My first minor is Ethnic Studies. Ayana Ford: So what got you into photography? Jake Northington: Just the class that was on my list. My intention was to do digital art and media. So that's the point of signing up for that program. But while in the program, one of the class options to take was a photography class to meet some of the requirements. So I took that class and I just liked it. And it seemed doable and it was not as hard as I thought photography was, at least not for me. I thought it was more difficult than what it was. So the teacher did a very good job at teaching us how to use any camera so you don't have to just get one and that's it. She kind of showed us how to use all cameras of all brands and how to manipulate the camera and, you know, just all the lighting techniques and everything we needed to use. And then in addition to that, CSU San Marcos has a great support system for all the areas of art. They have a music studio, they have an art studio, they have a dance studio and they have a recording studio within the library as well. Having all of those options, you're allowed to really practice your craft. I was able to go check out studio time in the library on the first floor in the library and continue to just take photos, take photos, do recordings and it allowed practice because I saw what I wanted things to look like in my head, but I couldn't physically do it yet with the camera. Just having this person as a teacher and then having those elements available on this campus, it allowed me to now get time to sharpen these things up and get my photos to the point where I wanted them to look like. And it really, I just--I was excited from the beginning because all I thought about was photographing Black people on campus. Like, I know we need this. This has to be. And then I had to go sell it, like, okay, who's gonna buy this? And I don't mean sell it as far as money. I mean, sell the idea of putting this up on campus. There were no photos up of Black people on campus when I showed up. So I was--and then you walk around another year, goes by. And then I saw one picture and this was a Black woman who was a track athlete on the campus. And then that's the only thing I saw. I'm like, We have to change that. My whole idea was: I got to learn how to use this so I could put out all of these things and I can show up to all these events and take the pictures, because everybody's just taking pictures on their phones or something like that. And it's not, you know, it's not enough. People just have personal photos on their phones. I'm like, No, I have to do this. So I actually went around and took pictures, for ASI, for all types of groups on campus, and I just kept getting practice, kept getting practice. By the time the center opened, I had a good year in. And then I was like, Okay, I think I can start to help. And then I started. Just kept doing it, kept doing it, the whole idea behind that first class was, I need to do promotion of Black people because I have to put these positive images of Black people out here. So, and it just, you know, some of the photos I ended up using for flyers, some of them, I ended up using for some of my PowerPoint presentations in different classes and it just continued to grow and continue to grow. And I still use a lot of them today and now everybody loves it. And then a lot of the students got free photos out of it. Because people like, “Oh, I want a photo shoot. I want a photo shoot.” So now I'll go do a little photo shoot, give them all the photos. And then we sit together and go, okay which, give me the top three that you like. And I'll pick between one of those three to go into the book. And that's how those things happen. So I let them help me decide which photos actually went into the book because this is going to promote you and show you. You want to show yourself how you want to show yourself. I love it. So that's what got me into photography. And then I later went on to just work professionally with a couple of groups in San Diego for about four or five years. And it only stopped because you know, everything going on right now (referring to the COVID-19 pandemic). But, I just continued to do photography. Ayana Ford: Well, any, do you have anything else to add? Anything you can think of? Jake Northington: Well, I would say once we got the Black Student Center, it also opened up job opportunities for Black students that didn't exist before. So previously Black students were in competition with everybody else on campus to work everywhere for student workers. So--some people may have reservations about Black people or some people may believe in stereotypes. And any other reason that hinder Black students from having the same job opportunities on campus as other students. When we walk, you walk around and see all these USU (University Student Union) workers, see all of the people working in different departments. Again, you just don't see a lot of Black students. You don't see, you know, three, four or five of them and that's it. Well having a Black Student Center now opened up more job opportunities and now opened up spaces for Black students to come in and practice being a professional worker in the world, because maybe you push buggies for Ralphs (supermarket chain). Maybe you load the groceries at Walmart, but you haven't done a professional job in a professional setting. You haven't done report writing. You haven't put on events. So this now opens up an arena for Black people and Black students to kind of practice some of these jobs skills or even have a job opportunity on campus. That became a big thing that didn't exist before. So now over the years, Black students now have an area, Hey, I can apply here and I might have a good chance to get a job. And this might--you might have a better chance getting a job at the Black Student Center and then everywhere else on campus combined. So it opened that up. And then a lot of other students kind of what, that may be not have worked before, they wanted to work. And they could have been here freshman, sophomore year, didn't care to work, but then by junior year they were like, Oh, you know what? I want to work in the Black Student Center. They putting on all these amazing events. I want to be a part of that. I want to be a part of the creation. I want to build a part of this. Some students actually did that. And then some students came to the campus with the idea of working in the Black Student Center. Because you know, them and their parents were going over this like, Okay, you're going to stay on campus. You--this is going to be your major. This is going to be a class period. What are your opportunities for working? The center is now listed in the opportunities for on-campus jobs. So I think that was a great help as well. And it's still. Right now (the BSC) have served as a great help over the time, because look at how many Black students have worked in the center now over the years. All of those students would not have a job, at least not there. So now it'd be a little more difficult for them to work somewhere else without that opportunity. And these skills just go along with the rest of your life. Now, and I just think it built, it just builds a lot of love and comradery within the Black community on campus, which then in turn, turns into a lot more Black people walking around, feeling better about themselves, and maybe they have a better day or maybe their grades are a little bit better. Maybe they don't have as hard a time studying. And maybe they feel better just about walking around and being on campus. So these things really have a great effect. And the Black Student Center is just, that's the greatest place on campus. I would eat my meals in there when I was on campus. I'm getting my food, I'm coming to eat here. So people started doing that. People would normally go off campus and go to some fast-food restaurant and hang out, eat, and then come back to campus. Not anymore. They go pick their food up and come back to eat it in the center to be around people and to talk and, you know, have a little fun and play a few games or something before they go back to class. So it just is building community. And that, again, that's another thing that just can't be measured. I hope it's here until the end the time. We should have the Black student center. And I'm trying to come back to the 25th anniversary, to the 70th anniversary. Lastly, I'm just ready for next year to have this (project of oral histories) presented. However its going to be presented by video or audio, however, is coming out, transcribed. However it comes out. I'm very excited for year five (of the BSC’s existence) and all of the people that has been a part of making it happen. And I just, I thank everybody, and I'm glad my idea came to fruition and we got a nice little grant to make this happen. This was great, it happened pretty fast too. I didn't yet thank the library for their help in making it happen. Ayana Ford: Thank you so much for allowing me to interview you today. Thank you. Jake: Alright. Alright. We good now? (interview concluded but then started again) Ayana Ford: So, do you know of the people who push for the Black Student Center specifically, like a couple of names and how it came to be? Jake Northington: Yeah. I mean, I can give you some names. I can't name everybody, but I recognize some of the people because they were there throughout the whole time, but again, some of the students were seniors already. So, you know, they did what they could and then graduated and were gone, and then some of the students were in and out and maybe not there all the time. But a few of the students are the--there was these two twins. They were the current BSU presidents during the time when we opened the space. And their names was Danni and Darnesha, I think the last name is Thornton. Also have Ashton, you have another guy, Louis Adamsel. You have, Marvin Cook who was later to BSU president. Like once the center officially opened, he was the BSU president. You have Renee White. You have a lot of women from a sorority that was there, so then we have, Darhra Williams ; another one of the original workers in the center. Think it was originally five or six workers in the center. You have another name, Brandy Williams. Another lady ; she went to a lot of ASI meetings to try to garner support and push for the reason for us to have the center. We have--oh, there's just so many people. That's about all I can think of right now, quickly off the top of my head. So there's others, there’s others, but those are some of the main people that I would see constantly. And then there’s staff members as well. So that was Black faculty and staff members as well, that assisted along the way, Dilcie Perez. Of course, Mrs. Marilyn (McWilliams), Ariel Stevenson., so we have a lot of staff members like that, that were assisting, (technical difficulties) so involved. Other than that, I mean, you have to go back and look at pictures and kind of pull up some more names. Because remember, this is years ago, you’re talking about 2016 when all of these things were happening pretty big, so its been a few years-- Ayana Ford: And so what programs did you help create and you're involved in, in some form? Jake Northington: Yes. So I came together with a guy, Louis Adamsel again, I came together with him and we kind of talked about having a brotherhood student organization. So there was nothing specific to Black men on the campus. Everything was just, you know, it was geared to other people or groups. But there was nothing geared towards Black men. We talked about it for a while and then we started it ; he was the president. I was vice president. And the idea for that was to assist the Black men. And again, with tutoring, mentorship, help guiding them through being a student, help them out of trouble, help them with their classes, class selection, and just help them in life skills that they maybe didn't get from growing up in whatever area they're coming from. And if they did get it, it just helped them with some confidence, kind of put them in positions to where they could speak more or be seen more, and just any type of support that they needed. And that was kind of about the things we go through individually and how we could collectively change those things. And this is--and some of those guys ended up in the book (Hueman), so it's three or four of those guys went in the book, from the brotherhood. And we started that in 2017 and this was--these are one of the things that has now attached to the center as a program. And now it's called the Brotherhood Alliance. So now they're continuing it. And that was the point, you know, because the student organization does as well or as bad as the group of students that are there. Yeah. And then you get stretched thin trying to continue an organization if the organization is not very big, so something that important needed to continue. So I presented this to John Rawlins (III, previous director of the Black Student Center) and he liked the idea, he wanted to continue it. So, and then they call it the Brotherhood Alliance and they still even meet right now. And I go to some of the meetings now and they just continue it. And they have another group, a group of guys that are the president and vice-president. So he (Rawlins III) got another group of guys that's keeping it going and, and they're active on campus and hey, I love it. I'm glad it's--I'm glad it's moving. Another organization that I got started was the Black Sistahood. So we had a Black Brotherhood, Black Sistahood. So we want to have them both. You don't just, you know, I'm not into just one side of the coin. We have to help both sides because there are particular things that we go through, you know, that needs to be addressed. Well, I couldn't be in the president of the Black Sistahood, you know, I don't think that should be led by me. So I continued to pick different women on campus that I thought would fit the bill. And I wasn't getting a lot of a response back. So it took a while to kind of find somebody that wanted to take the mantle of that. But in the meantime, it was like the Black Brotherhood and Black Sistahood was housed within the Black Brotherhood. So we would still help everybody. We would still help and support the different Black women on campus, but we were not going to lead a conversation or lead a program specifically for Black women. So it was just kind of housed within the Black brotherhood. And then we would do it in a different way and we would go support the Black women, the Black womens’ sorority events and things like that. So once I finally ran into a person, Sunni Bates, she was very excited about this and she wanted to be the leader of it. And I was like, Okay, here we go! Now we got somebody that wants to lead that. So she became the president and then I didn't want to hold any type of position because that's for them, specifically. So then we went out and recruited different members and we got a bunch of ladies together who were not active in any other groups and it was like, Okay, here's another, here's another club to push Black people--help Black people to push themselves out of the idea of this is all we have and that's all it is, anything outside of that is wrong. And I think some people on different campuses really feel like you should only have a BSU. Anything outside of that is challenging the BSU. Well I didn't stand for that. I was like, We have to change that idea. I draw. We need to have a Black art club. These people love movies. We need a Black movie club. So these are the things we pushed around. We started to have Black movie nights. Then we have you know, a night for this, a night for that. They started a dance group. Some ladies had a dance club that they started and there's even a new dance club right now. So just to keep pushing the idea, we can have more, we can have fifteen or twenty Black student clubs. So this gives a vast array of things for Black students to be active in. When you only give them one or two, that doesn't do enough. We're all different. We all got different likes and wants and needs. So we need to spread it out, that's the other part of having a Black Brotherhood or Black Sistahood. So--and then I just operated in both of those. And again, I'm on my way out. Then John, John Rawlins was like, Hey, is this something we could kinda take on from y'all because both of y'all are going to be leaving. So I spoke with him (Rawlins III), Sunni spoke with him, and then now they have—I think they call it the Circle of Sisters. I think that's what it's called, something like that, or something close to that. So now they have that with the Brotherhood Alliance, and these are now programs housed in the Black Student Center. That didn't happen before. So now offering multiple clubs. And then now they're housed in the center versus if a few active students leave, these things may get thin or spread apart or go away, and we don't need those things to happen. So we need things that are constant and constant, and that are continually going to help the students and support the students. So I was really happy to see that happen. And then, you know, now you don't have to put that burden on a new student, showing up to try to collect the Black brothers together, collect the Black sisters together. You don't have to put that burden on them. Now they have a vehicle to operate out of, it just gives more help to a need. So then through all of these different clubs and organizations--remember, I'm an art student--so I'm not only taking pictures, I'm doing sculptures. I did a couple of sculpture things that I did for ASI and, and that I did for the Women's Center. And then the Women's Center over at the time changed their name to the Gender Equity Center, but it was the Women's Center when I got there. And then so I did this sculpture piece in collaboration with them and with ASI around saving straws. So the straw campaign happened during I was, while I was at the school. And they wanted to stop the use of as much plastics and put it together to create a sea animal, which was a sea turtle to show: look at how this affects the marine and aquatic life. And we used that to kind of help push sustainability and to end the uses of straws on campus and all these other things. So, I was able to use my artwork and all these dynamic ways, and then now I started to design logos and shirts for clubs and organizations outside of the Black Student Center and in a Black Student Union. And then that just led to so many more opportunities. I began to photograph events for the diversity office (Office of Inclusive Excellence), for ASI, clubs and just different things. And then at the end it was time for me to make my own. I've done so much for so many other people. And then just so many people, I just got so much good feedback from a lot of the t-shirts and stuff that I made. And a lot of the designs I was like, I guess it's time for me to make my own, I'm on my way out of here so I'm just going to start making some of my own stuff. So then I started making Brotherhood and Sistahood t-shirts and hoodies and sweaters and all jackets, different things like that. And I'll just keep testing out things, keep redesigning things. That's a lot of the stuff I did in my last semester. And then that ended up with their own t-shirt line. And now I make my own stuff, so I love it (Northington holds up the hoody he is wearing). And some of these things have now been sold to different colleges and universities. They contact me and I, you know, I have my own LLC, my own business. And I work with other Black student centers and diversity departments, and they buy stuff in bulk to give out to Black students across the San Diego and LA County. And so those ideas and all of that work that I was able to do, and things I was able to be a part of, and working with the different groups, and just creating and sparking new ideas led to this ; I use this to help pay for graduate school as well. So it's a nice full circle of work. Ayana Ford: Yeah. And then you still came back to San Marcos to help us with this project. Jake Northington: (laughter) Well, they haven’t let me go. So, I've done a few projects even after graduating. Once I graduated, I still did about four or five other projects post-graduation. Ayana Ford: So like, for example, for this Black student Center project, what was your direct role in getting this made? Jake Northington: Well my direct role was it was my idea to begin with, and I don't know if anybody’d thought of this before. Maybe they did, but it--and they weren't able to make it happen. And it took the right people. So like Sean Visintainer (Head of Special Collections, University Library), like John Rawlins (III, Director of the Black Student Center), it, you know, it took the right people. So the right people were here at the same time. And once the ideas got around, they were interested. Sean was interested. John was interested when I gave the idea to him. So then they started to spread out and build the team that we needed. We got a team of like five people. And with that team now, it's like, All right, let's get through the planning stage. So we spent six, eight months planning through the summer, through the winter to get through the planning stage. And then now reach out to hire students, point out all different people we needed to be involved as far as telling stories like this. And just to watch it all happen is it's just, I guess that might be more satisfying, I get to actually watch my idea happen like that. And I just hope everybody really can get something out of this, or at least get close to what I'm getting out of it. Because it's, I mean--to be a student that operates on campus and you're trying to be active and you're trying to make changes for your community? And then to see something like that happen when I knew it took years to get the Black Student Center! Years to even crack the door open. But then now this situation happened within a matter of a year, year and a half. And I'm like, Oh, this is, you know, this is great! And people are more apt to help and support--the email went out about, Hey, we're looking for students to be a part of this project and to do interviews and this, this, this, and then to start getting feedback like that, you know, I don't know if this could have happened in the same manner eight years ago, seventeen years ago. You know, the campus climate, the activities were a little different, so it just the right time and the right people. And we're able to pull this off. I mean this definitely on my resume (laughs). So it was one of the highlights on my resume to even have my name attached to this. So it--say after that, this is definitely up there. I think my, I like my books a little more, but, but this is up there. Ayana Ford: Well I’m glad you’re able to be a part of it. Jake Northington: Yeah. Ayana Ford: Thank you. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en  video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=NorthingtonJake_FordAyana_2021-04-06.xml NorthingtonJake_FordAyana_2021-04-06.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northington, Jake. Interview April 6th, 2021 Description An account of the resource Jake Northington is a California State University San Marcos alumni. He graduated with his degree in Photography in 2019. Jake worked in the Black Student Center and created photography that hangs in the Center. In this interview, Jake discusses his childhood growing up in East St. Louis, Illinois, how and when he came to CSUSM in 2016, and his involvement with the creation of the Black Student Center. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-01 Subject The topic of the resource Artists, Black California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos -- Students Portrait photography Student success Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jake Northington Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant East Saint Louis (Ill.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Jake Northington Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Activists and activism Art and artists Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history