8 10 208 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sierra Jenkins Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Geoffrey Gilmore OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Black Student Center OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Gilmore, Geoffrey. Interview April 14th, 2021. SC027-04 01:12:56 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection Campus oral histories CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; csusm Black Student Center student success California State University San Marcos Black experience Geoffrey Gilmore Sierra Jenkins moving image GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5092b218abace83b431090029a7e6156.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 36 Childhood Gilmore briefly discusses his childhood growing up in Seattle and his feeling of isolation without close family. Seattle ; Los Angeles ; isolation ; family 0 177 Developing an understanding of Blackness Gilmore speaks about how his understanding of blackness came mostly from books, documentaries, lectures, and his family and peers. self-education ; informal education 0 300 Learning about Black history and the Black experience in childhood and adolescence Gilmore talks about her exposure to Black history in school, which was largely misinformation and seen through a lens of whiteness. Black history ; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Malcom X ; Civil Rights Movement ; Black Panthers ; power ; teacher 0 680 College experience Gilmore reflects on his time in college at Washington State University. In contrast to his earlier education experience, he was able to take Black studies courses and interact with a diversity of Black people. He talks in length about a television series titled “Them” and how its premise and conclusion has impacted him. Black history ; Black studies ; Black and white relations ; Them television series ; racism ; power dynamic 0 1703 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements Gilmore reflects on his main philosophy that is Black empowerment through education. He has spent his career helping students to realize how they can succeed in education and in their careers. educational philosophy ; student success ; empowerment through education ; student struggle ; student learning ; remedial education 0 2624 Early focus of the Black Student Center's initiatives, programming, events Gilmore speaks about many events sponsored by the Black Student Center. From his perspective, the main purpose of the Center was to be focused on education and student success. Black Student Center ; education ; learning ; events ; Kwanzaa ; Black Panters ; Tulsa Massacre ; Black health 0 2992 Gilmore's role in establishing the Black Student Center Gilmore speaks about his role in establishing the Center, including his initial oversight of the Center. From his perspective, the main purpose of the Center was to be focused on education and student success. Black Student Center ; student success ; Dr. Gail Cole-Avent ; John Rawlins III ; Jake Northington ; organizational structure 0 3147 The process of creating the Black Student Center Gilmore discusses the initial push by students for a Black Student Center. Black Student Center ; meeting ; President Karen Haynes ; formal request 0 3295 Leaders of the Black Student Center project, their contributions, and unsung heroes Gilmore mentions how to find a list of people who were involved in establishing the Black Student Center. He also talks about the faculty and staff working behind the scenes on this student-driven initiative Black Student Center website ; CSUSM faculty ; CSUSM staff ; student-driven 0 3441 University Administration’s vision for the Black Student Center Gilmore speaks about the priorities for the Black Student Center being student success, engagement, and involvement. The Black Student Center was moved from Student Academic Support Services to Student Life. Black Student Center ; student success ; student engagement ; Student Academic Support Services ; Student Life 0 3607 Opposition to the creation of the Black Student Center Gilmore briefly speaks to campus worries about the establishment of a Black Student Center on campus. Black Student Center ; white student center ; pushback 0 3732 Experiencing the Grand Opening of the Black Student Center/BSC's impact on the campus communitiy Gilmore reflects on the grand opening of the Center, especially the emphasis on creating relationships with the local Black community. grand opening ; relationships ; local service area ; Black Student Unions ; pipeline ; community members ; careers ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Jack and Jill organization ; conference 0 4118 Personal impact of the Black Student Center on Gilmore Gilmore reflects on how the educational events and connection with students in the Black Student Center impacted him. educational events ; student connection 0 4273 Future expectations of the Black Student Center Future expectations of the Black Student Center. Gilmore shares his expectation for taking the Black Student Center to the next level. Dr. Gail Cole-Avent ; John Rawlins III ; student success ; graduation 0 oral history Dr. Geoffry Gilmore specifically touches on the issues of Black people within academic spaces and his experience helping students to succeed on a university level. Dr. Gilmore also discusses his own history as he moved from Los Angeles to Seattle, and back to California. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:00.000 Today is Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at two zero eight p.m. I am Sierra Jenkins, student at CSU San Marcos, and today I'm interviewing Dr. Geoffrey Gilmore for the Black Student Center oral history project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Student Canter and CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Dr. Gilmore, thank you for being here with me today. How are you doing? Geoffrey Gilmore: I'm doing well. Thank you. Jenkins: Glad to hear it. So I'm just gonna' jump right in. So our first question for today is where were you born and where did you grow up? Gilmore: I was born in, I was born in, in Los Angeles, California, and I grew up in Seattle, Washington. Jenkins: How was it growing up in Seattle as compared to Los Angeles? Gilmore: It was different, you know, it was, you know, it was a lot, it was a lot different. 00:01:00.000 --> 00:02:00.000 It was isolating in the sense that, in the sense that, that the family that we had here in California was very expansive. We have a lot of family who had migrated and settled and stayed in the Los Angeles area for a long time. And so I've got a lot of family in the Los Angeles area and particularly in Pasadena, California, and you know, in Washington, when we moved up there, that wasn't the case. I think, a little later on, we had a couple of cousins 00:02:00.000 --> 00:03:00.000 who were up there, but, who had moved up there, but other than that there wasn't, there were not, there were not that many. So yeah, it was different. Jenkins: How old were you when you moved to Seattle? Gilmore: I was, I was very young. I was four years old. Jenkins: Okay. And how old were you when you moved back out to California? Gilmore: When I moved back to California, I was, I was 30. Jenkins: Oh, wow. So you definitely grew up in Seattle completely. Gilmore: Right. Jenkins: How did you come to your understanding of Blackness? Gilmore: A lot of it, I would say a lot of it came from 00:03:00.000 --> 00:04:00.000 experience and then there was, family as well. And then on top of that, there was the education I received. And I will emphasize that when I say education, I'm not talking about education in the formal sense of school, although school did attempt to educate me to accept what the role that society had actually established for Black people in this country. But, you know, it was more so self-education, as well as informal 00:04:00.000 --> 00:05:00.000 experiences, where maybe peers or other members within the Black community had actually referred me to information from different books, documentaries, and, having attended different lectures, all that kind of stuff. So educationally, it was largely informal but then, of course, like I said, there's the life experience as well as, the education that came from family. Jenkins: Thank you for that. What were you taught in childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black experience? Gilmore: It's 00:05:00.000 --> 00:06:00.000 interesting that you asked that question. Really when it came down to Black experience, what I was educated is that in school in particular, is that Black people are in a lower social class than white people. And really than anybody else in the world that we are at the bottom when it comes to when it comes to social class, based on race and was also educated--actually, I'll tell you what--I'll tell you a story that sort of underscores what that was. I can remember, I believe it may have been 00:06:00.000 --> 00:07:00.000 in the fourth grade that this really occurred. We were learning about, I guess, quote, Black history in the classroom, and it was all about slavery and the struggle of the Black people in the Civil Rights Movement, and how Martin Luther King was this great person because he encouraged the struggle to be non-violent, whereas Malcolm X and the Black Panthers were violent, racist, haters of white people and wanted to kill white people and 00:07:00.000 --> 00:08:00.000 all this kind of stuff. And as she went into that part of our education, I can remember that one of the white students in the class had raised his hand and asked the teacher a question, and the question that he asked was if we were to ever let Black people have power then would they put us in slavery and do the same things to us that we've done to them. And the teacher thought about the question for a moment and really her answer to that question reinforced what the intention 00:08:00.000 --> 00:09:00.000 of that lesson was, right? And really, reinforced what the whole message about power in this country is all, as it pertains to race, is all about. And her answer to the question was you know that's a really good question. I don't know. And so the thing is, just in looking at, in really unpacking that question and what the student was asking, first of all just in asking, if we ever let Black people have power, first of all, that means that the white people have the 00:09:00.000 --> 00:10:00.000 power, and the only way that Black people can ever have power is if the white people let Black people have power. Right? And so that's the first thing. And then, the second thing was this fear that what they have imposed on Black people would be reciprocated back to them and all of that. Right? And just in what the teacher was saying all of that message was the message that she clearly intended to get across given the answer to that question. And that answer basically confirmed that, yes, her intent was to--what's to say that white people have all the power 00:10:00.000 --> 00:11:00.000 and the only way Black people can ever have power is if white people let them have power? And that it is a real fear of white people that Black people with power would return the evil that has been imposed on our people. So that was the gist of the formal education that I was given about Black people in school. And I can tell you that really from year to year moving on from there, and even before that, that was the message that was being delivered. That was the, that was what we were being educated to 00:11:00.000 --> 00:12:00.000 believe. Jenkins: That's horrible. That's such an interesting story to have experienced in fourth grade. What did you learn after adolescence prior to coming to CSUSM? Gilmore: Well, there's a whole lot of time in between adolescence and CSUSM. So, I would say--I guess you're talking about, after I left high school, correct? Jenkins: Yes. Gilmore: Okay. So when I left high school and went to college, it was different. And it was different in the sense that while 00:12:00.000 --> 00:13:00.000 attending a predominantly white college, or university, I also, the company I kept was largely Black. We had a sizable enough Black community at Washington State that really was who I was with the majority of the time I was there, you know? And so educationally speaking, it was different in the sense that, at this point I'm actually--I could actually take Black studies courses 00:13:00.000 --> 00:14:00.000 and actually learn more in a formal educational setting about Black people in this country and around the world. On top of that, there was the informal education, that was in the same vein, along the same vein of what I had mentioned before with peers and with other people in the community and what--really just being referred to different books, different documentaries, all that kind of stuff. And even in special lectures and all that kind of stuff. And even that, 00:14:00.000 --> 00:15:00.000 looking at a lot of these things on my own, that was a big part, but also, I would say that interacting with people who had come to Washington State from a continent, that was a huge educational experience in itself as well. And to be able to learn more about the continent and about what had, what had actually gone on the continent beyond slavery, beyond the slave trade, was a very illuminating experience. And so that kind of gets back to your previous 00:15:00.000 --> 00:16:00.000 question about what I learned about Black people growing up. And one thing that I would say that I walked away from my K-12 experience with was the warped understanding that Africa was all about National Geographic or apartheid, one of the two. And so therefore, my perspective was that anybody from, anybody who I met from Africa, either lived in apartheid under the apartheid system, being oppressed by white people, or they live like National Geographic in the bush. And that was my understanding 00:16:00.000 --> 00:17:00.000 coming out of high school and it was very illuminating to be able to go to college and actually get to know and interact with people who had come over to the United States from the continent and get their college education at Washington State like I did. And in doing that, that understanding or that misunderstanding, and that miseducation as to what Africa was all about was dispelled definitively in the--through those interactions. 00:17:00.000 --> 00:18:00.000 And I would have to say that what, in learning about what had actually occurred in various places around the continent over, around the continent that I came to realize that I'd been lied to, and it's that sort of thing to where when you have a--let's say if you're talking to your parents growing up and they asked you a question about what happened and you give them a part of the story but not the whole story as to what happened and what are they going to say? They're going to say that you lied. Right? And essentially 00:18:00.000 --> 00:19:00.000 that's what happened in my educational experience, that a part of the story that really made them look good or powerful maybe--I wouldn't even say look good because much of our story in this country as it pertains to Black and white race relations much of that is rooted in pure evil, you know? And I don't know if you've seen that, the Lovecraft Country show, or if you've seen Them, which just came out on Amazon Prime. Jenkins: I've heard a lot about it, and I haven't heard the best of things. 00:19:00.000 --> 00:20:00.000 And that's what kind of pushed me away from it. 'Cause it has a lot of our trauma on screen and some of that can be triggering. So I kind of stayed away from it. I've planned to watch Lovecraft, 'cause I know that that one has more of a better ending, but I've heard that Them doesn't really come to a conclusion--that it, it's kind of just like our trauma for entertainment. Gilmore: Them had a conclusion. Jenkins: Oh, it did? Gilmore: Yes, it did. And it had a very powerful conclusion at that. And I would say that as far as that show is concerned, that it is important for us to watch that, the creator's expression of 00:20:00.000 --> 00:21:00.000 the Black experience, is through that, through that program because the creator really nailed the trauma as you put it of the Black experience in this country 100%, and the way in which he did it, in my opinion, was pure genius, you know? So, I would highly, highly, highly recommend it, very highly recommend it. It was difficult to watch, and it was painful in much--I would say the majority of it was painful, but the way in which it ended, it ended 00:21:00.000 --> 00:22:00.000 with power, and again, I most definitely wholeheartedly recommend that show. There's a lot to unpack in that show. And one of the things about it is that we recognize our experience and the experience of those who came before us because I'll tell you one of the things about watching something like that, right? Is where we can hear about the experiences that the people who came before us went through, right? But to really see it and to really understand it is a whole 'nother thing. And to really get down to the 00:22:00.000 --> 00:23:00.000 evil of racism that has existed in our country and still exists in our country is critical for us to really wake up and determine our place in the society. Really the way in which the system has been set up and continues to be set up is that we're supposed to know our place in a society. We're supposed to know our role and stay in it, you know? And that's the way that it's designed. But if we're all to also understand that the, 00:23:00.000 --> 00:24:00.000 really the power to determine what our role is going to be in society and take that role on, the power to do that actually lies within ourselves to make that determination and to and stand by it, you know? And so that's where I think that this program really hit the nail on the head and really delivered that message. And the other thing, too, is that it's one of those things where I was watching--in watching the show, 00:24:00.000 --> 00:25:00.000 it made me think about my grandfather, right? And I had to go back and really think about what the kinds of things that my grandparents would say about their experiences and what their attitudes were. You know, what about this society and about what was and was not possible, all kinds of stuff, right? And in doing that, I actually just on a whim typed my grandfather's name into Google and looked up 00:25:00.000 --> 00:26:00.000 --and was trying to look up and see if there was any information there about him and about that time, and in doing so, I came across an article that was about my great-grandmother in the LA (Los Angeles) Times. And the article was really just a human interest piece that was talking about her because she had turned a hundred and really, in coming to California, that's where a lot of family just actually just came from her and is in the Los Angeles area as a result. 00:26:00.000 --> 00:27:00.000 And there was one part in there where they were talking to her, and she was talking about coming to California and how--from the deep South--and how that, and how, in some ways what she experienced in California was worse than what she experienced in the deep South. And that's where it--that show really resonated because that's what the show is centered on. Centered on Black people coming to California from the South. And moving into neighborhoods that are 00:27:00.000 --> 00:28:00.000 predominantly, if not all white. And how they were and how they were received. And so I can--it gave a picture as to what may have been behind that statement, you know? Yeah. So-- Jenkins: I’ll try it. I will, but 'cause my grandma, she also had a similar experience. She came from Seattle to California around the fifties. And so, but she lived in like a Black area. She, yeah. Gilmore: Okay. Jenkins: How has Black social justice and activism such as the Civil Rights Movement, feminism, the natural hair movement, and Black Lives Matter affected you? 00:28:00.000 --> 00:29:00.000 Hmm. How has it affected me? Jenkins: Yes. Gilmore: You know, I'll tell you what, when I was in school, I was very much involved in social justice and activism on our campus at Washington State. I would also say that when it comes to 00:29:00.000 --> 00:30:00.000 my life beyond college, it has taken on a different form than the activism that I was involved in when I was a student in school. And the form that it is taken on has been more so in my work, right? And so we can look at that basically, given that I've been in education, it's been more about empowerment through education, and that has actually been a philosophy that I have, 00:30:00.000 --> 00:31:00.000 that has, that has grounded in my work. That philosophy of empowerment through education has grounded my work. And that would be through math, through writing, through--and really through looking at ourselves and looking at our history and where we come from and also looking at the possibilities of where we can go and--if we so desire and how to get there. And that's where I would say that connecting the students to resources, helping students to see that 00:31:00.000 --> 00:32:00.000 what they may have thought was out of reach when it comes to their education is actually actually tangible. It's possible to learn this stuff. And one of the things--we talk a lot about impostor syndrome. That's something, that's a term that I've heard used quite a bit when it comes to people not realizing or understanding that they can actually learn what's there and that it's not a reflection of their intelligence or ability that they struggle with certain 00:32:00.000 --> 00:33:00.000 material because the thing is that when it comes down to it, say for instance, we struggling with math, right? And I've heard so many students saying that I'm just not good at math. Right? And the thing to understand there is that there's no such thing as not being good at math. The thing to understand is that you are in school and in being in school, you're here to learn. And the fact that you don't know the information that is being presented to you in the classroom--is not--that's the way it's supposed to be, right? Because you're here to learn it, you know? And so you're not going into the classroom already knowing how to do what they're presenting to you. 00:33:00.000 --> 00:34:00.000 Otherwise you're wasting your time. If you're just sitting there to showcase that you know how to do stuff that--and and basically pay him money to take a class, to show you how to do stuff that you already know how to do, you know? And so that is--that has been what a large part of what I've done after college. One thing, for instance, was at Washington State, I was Director of the Freshman Seminar Program at Washington State for a while. And while I was doing that I was called by the athletics department. Right? And they had all these football players 00:34:00.000 --> 00:35:00.000 during the summertime who were taking a math course that they were failing. And in order to be eligible to play in the fall, they absolutely had to pass this class. And so they called me in to help them pass the--help them with the math and to help them pass the class. And so I did that and what we ended up doing was we ended up addressing the concepts that they were being presented in that class. And as they address those concepts, they gained, they started gaining understanding of how these things work, of how the concepts that they were being presented with work and on how to use those--and how and when to use the different concepts that they were being given 00:35:00.000 --> 00:36:00.000 and what they ended up discovering was that the knowledge that they had previously thought was unreachable and was out of--and unattainable was actually accessible and that all they had to do was the learning, right? And so coming to that understanding that just because I don't know what's--what this is all about going into it, doesn't mean that I can't learn it. Right? And what you ended up seeing was that with this, in this classroom full of football players, who I was working with, who are majority Black, finding out that that knowledge was accessible and actually coming to that understanding of what this 00:36:00.000 --> 00:37:00.000 education was all about, what you saw them do after that experience was consider the possibilities for their own lives and start to see that, well, Hey, maybe I can be a doctor, or maybe I can be an engineer. And what you saw was you saw these students changing their majors from general studies, or from social sciences, just anything that they had signed up for because they were told that it was going to be easier for them to do while they were playing football and change their majors to physics or to engineering or to pre-med and--or other fields that they thought might be 00:37:00.000 --> 00:38:00.000 of interest or might--that they might want to go into. And that was that empowerment, right? To where it's like coming to that understanding then they ended up really taking a look at their own lives and their own direction and determining where they were going to go. And for the next few years after that I would see those same students, those same football players, progressing through the different levels of math. They started out at the class that I was helping them with was considered a remedial math course, right? And in taking that class, they then 00:38:00.000 --> 00:39:00.000 advanced to the next level and then to the next level. And were taking calculus two, calculus three, depending on what their major was asking for and approaching it from that standpoint of learning. And to this day, a couple of those students are actually doctors to that--medical doctors. There's, another one that I know of who did and end up becoming an engineer and then there was, I think there were a couple others who went into business and actually started their own businesses and are successful in doing so. So that's what I'm talking about when it comes to empowerment through education. And even when I got here 00:39:00.000 --> 00:40:00.000 at Cal State San Marcos that was the thing that I was brought into address. I was brought into address math and writing. And in particular, those students who were coming into the university with a knowledge foundation that was below the college level, so it was a matter of helping those students to get up to speed with what they needed to know to do--to be successful in school. Right? And that's what I did. And that was actually one of the things that I had told--that I would tell students as they came into the university. And I would tell these students and you would see it, too, when it came down to actually talking to the students, what, you 00:40:00.000 --> 00:41:00.000 would see that in orientation, when they dismissed the students who did not need to attend the discussion on what was called remedial math or writing, then the students who were left were largely Black and Latino. And on any given day, that would--orientation day, when I would speak to the students, it would be the case. And that's the thing that I would that I will conclude with when I would talk to them, after telling them about the requirements, after telling them about the classes that they would have to take, and addressing all of those things. 00:41:00.000 --> 00:42:00.000 I would tell them to take a look at the name badges, where their test scores were printed out--the placement scores--and where the classes that they would have to take were listed and the--their requirement for early start was on there as well. And I would tell them that this is the most important thing that I was going to tell them out of that whole presentation. And in looking at that, their name badges with their test scores in those classes, I would tell them those scores and those classes are not a reflection of your intelligence, nor are they a reflection of your ability, but they are a reflection of what you know and what you don't know right now. And all of that that I just presented 00:42:00.000 --> 00:43:00.000 is, it's about what you are required to learn and to understand that when you are learning new knowledge, that that learning experience is supposed to be a struggle. And so the fact that you may have struggled with math and writing in the past, that does not mean that you are not good at it. It just means that you've come across some knowledge that you don't know right now, but you can learn it and that we're here to support you in learning it. And as a result of that, seeing countless students go through, starting at the, from the lowest levels of math and go on into, going into fields that they thought were not accessible to them just like the, those football players. Same with students who were, who needed 00:43:00.000 --> 00:44:00.000 a stronger foundation in writing, same kind of thing. And in doing so, helping them to think about what it was that they wanted to do and how it is that they can leverage what they were learning in the classroom to actually do those things that they wanted to do, you know? So that was the, that was what, has been in large part what my experience has been since leaving the state of Washington. There's been more and, as you know, I was a part of actually helping to establish the Black Student Center here at Cal State San Marcos, as well. And so when, that was 00:44:00.000 --> 00:45:00.000 in large part from the, from an administrative standpoint, but at the same time also setting the tone from an educational standpoint as to what the Center was to, what it was to be about, which was education, right? And learning and advancing yourself to go back into the community and build up the community. And so, when they were, there were quite a few things that we did to actually do that through the Black Student Center. One, I would say, was through 00:45:00.000 --> 00:46:00.000 a lot of the educational events that we put on. One of those events was that we brought a panel of Black Panthers to the University to speak on their experiences and what that was all about. And we also had a photography display up in the Library, where you had all these pictures of Black Panthers and narratives where they were telling their stories and their experiences in the movement. We also had an event where we, what we brought the founder of Kwanzaa to the University to preside over the Kwanzaa ceremony and to also educate us on where it came from 00:46:00.000 --> 00:47:00.000 and why it was, why was it established here in this country. We also brought in some people who, from Tulsa, Oklahoma, to talk about the Tulsa Massacre you know where--and I'm sure you've probably heard you, you're probably knowledgeable of that history. And it was those kinds of things that we did to really create a learning environment about the Black experience, as well as establishing a forum 00:47:00.000 --> 00:48:00.000 within the Black Student Center for students to exchange knowledge and also to learn from each other with what they were learning in the classroom and to help uplift each other in that sense. Another thing that we did was to also address the Black experience, whether that be in general or whether that be on this campus. And to really help students to come to an understanding of what it is that they're going through, and what it is that is happening with them 00:48:00.000 --> 00:49:00.000 when it comes to stress, when it comes to their interactions with others, and to understand that what they may be experiencing is not abnormal, and that there are many of us, have, and do experience the same things. You know, we brought in a psychologist from Student Health and Counseling Services to come in and talk about Black stress and how as Black people, there is so much that we carry around on a daily basis that 00:49:00.000 --> 00:50:00.000 is a huge contributor to the high blood pressure that many of us experience to the hypertension that many of us experience and into our general health. And so those are the kinds of things that we did with the, in establishing the Black Student Center. Jenkins: That definitely goes into my next questions that are all centered on the Black Student Center. So you touched on, kind of what, how, what you guys have done now that it's already created, but what role did you play in the beginning or the creation of the Black Student Center? Gilmore: So the Black Student Center was actually established in my area, 00:50:00.000 --> 00:51:00.000 which is Student Academic Support Services. Right? And so, you know Dr. Cole-Avent, right? Oh, you don't know Dr. Cole-Avent-- Jenkins: --I'm new, I'm like very new. Like I started fall 2020, so we've already, we've been in, quarantine and Zoom school, so I haven't gotten to know anybody in any fundamental way. Gilmore: Sure. Okay. So, but you know, Mr. Rawlins, John Rawlins? Jenkins: Yes. I met him and I also met Jake (Northington). Gilmore Okay. So Dr. Cole-Avent is Mr. Rawlins' direct supervisor. Right? And so I was 00:51:00.000 --> 00:52:00.000 essentially, when the Black Student Center was established, I was in that role, to where the Black Student Center, the Director of the Black Student Center reported to me. Right? And so in establishing the Black Student Center, the, like I had mentioned, the way in which I wanted to approach it was from more of an educational standpoint, more of a educational success standpoint. And with that, with that success, with the end goal of that success, actually being what I previously mentioned about being employed upon graduation and going out into the community and thriving in the community, and 00:52:00.000 --> 00:53:00.000 being that mover and shaker in this society. So that was the role that I played in the establishment of the Black Student Center. Jenkins: Okay. Had you seen a push for the creation of a center before? Gilmore: Had I done what? Jenkins: Had you seen a push for a center before it was created? Gilmore: Yes, actually. And when I was, I was actually at the forum where the president, our previous president, President Haynes, was speaking about the--she was speaking, I believe she may have been being, giving an update on the campus budget to the campus community. And 00:53:00.000 --> 00:54:00.000 there were some Black students who came to that meeting and essentially expressed the need and the desire for a Black Student Center on this campus. And so the president had informed the students that she was open to it and that and that they needed to submit a formal request. And so in the background, I was helping the students who were working on that formal request with the information that they needed to support that request. And so 00:54:00.000 --> 00:55:00.000 more information about the Black experience on this campus. And how students were performing in their classes on this campus and what a Black Student Center would do to bolster the success of Black students at CSUSM. Jenkins: It definitely sounds like you were one of the leaders in the creation of the Black Student Center. Were there anyone that worked on this project and their contributions, including any unsung heroes we may not know about? Gilmore: There were quite a few, and so 00:55:00.000 --> 00:56:00.000 I would say a lot of the people who were involved in the and actually establishing the Black Student Center at Cal State San Marcos are listed on the website under the history of the Black Student Center. So you can find a lot of the names there. As far as unsung heroes are concerned, I would say that there were quite a few faculty and staff who worked 00:56:00.000 --> 00:57:00.000 in the background in supporting the students to help them get the Center established, you know? And so this was in large part, it was a student-driven thing. Establishing a Black Student Center, it was definitely student driven, but at the same time, it was supported and--it was supported by a lot of our Black faculty and staff on this campus. Jenkins: Okay, awesome. What did the university administration communicate was their vision? You kind of already touched on this, that it was 00:57:00.000 --> 00:58:00.000 mainly education. And was there anything else that they envisioned? Gilmore: Yes. Let me, I'll tell you what, when it comes to the vision, right? I would say that student success was a large part of that. So students actually being successful in their classes and also going on into careers. 00:58:00.000 --> 00:59:00.000 That was a large part of it being in my area ; whereas, the other piece that they really wanted to be more emphasized was the student engagement piece and the student involvement piece, right? And so that's where you have it moving from Student Academic Support Services over to Student Life. And so now the emphasis, at least in the vision of the institution, 00:59:00.000 --> 01:00:00.000 really wanted to make this more, make the students, the Black Student Center, have more of a student engagement and student life emphasis. I don't--and that's not to say that there's no interest in student success and that that educational aspect is not is no longer a part of that part of that vision. But that's the vision that the institution really wanted to emphasize was the student life and student involvement aspect. Jenkins: Okay. When it came to the creation of the BSC, was there external or institutional pushback, and did you 01:00:00.000 --> 01:01:00.000 experience or witness any pushback on the creation of the Center within the Center or on social media? Gilmore: Well, I can answer the social media question right now. And that is that I didn't see anything on social media for the simple fact that I'm not on social media, so I try to keep my digital footprint pretty light. So I can't speak to what may have been going on social media. But one thing that I can say that I heard repeatedly was doesn't establishing a Black Student Center doesn't that, isn't that encourage more division and more in isolation of our Black students instead of folding them into the fabric 01:01:00.000 --> 01:02:00.000 of the entire campus community? And if we're going to have a Black Student Center, then why not a white student center? That was another thing that I heard. And then another thing that I heard was a worry that other groups might want a center as well. So what if the Asian students start asking for a center and all that kind of stuff and that was the, those were the type--kinds of things that I heard when it came to pushback. 01:02:00.000 --> 01:03:00.000 Yeah. I would just leave it at that, that was, those were the kinds of things that I heard. Jenkins: Okay. Were you at the BSC's grand opening? Gilmore: I was. Jenkins: Okay. What was your experience? Gilmore: I thought that it was a great experience. It was very celebratory experience. There were a lot of people who came out from the community and a lot of different constituents from our community in the area. Were very pleased to see this, the Black Student Center opening, and were actually very involved in what was going on in the Center. And it was one of those things where 01:03:00.000 --> 01:04:00.000 it opened the door to connect with a lot of people in our local service area to interact with our students. And, like one of the things, when you were talking about vision, one of the things we really wanted to do was to create relationships with the schools within our local service area, which extends from San Diego up to Riverside and Orange County. So we were in, we were engaging with schools as far out as 01:04:00.000 --> 01:05:00.000 Hemet and connecting with the BSU’s (Black Student Unions) that they had out there and in, Hemet, Murrieta, and Menifee, and going into Poway and right here in San Marcos and Oceanside and all over the local service area. And we were connecting with Black students and with Black community organizations and with the teachers and administrators and counselors who were working with the different student groups to really establish that connection in an attempt to 01:05:00.000 --> 01:06:00.000 create a pipeline into the University from those entities. And so that was a big part of it. Another part of it was in connecting with community members, one of the things that we also wanted to establish was a pipeline out of the University. And so what we wanted to do was to bring in various community members in different--in a wide range of professions--to come in and talk to the students and provide the, provide insight into different careers 01:06:00.000 --> 01:07:00.000 and in different professional fields for the students to be able to see themselves in those areas. And so that was one of the things that that grand opening really did was allow us to make those, allow us to make those connections and really build on those connections. Another thing that we did was we connected with the North County chapter of the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People). We connected with North County chapters of different NPHC (National Pan-Hellenic Council) organizations. So, and have those organizations different, doing different activities with the students on our campus. And one 01:07:00.000 --> 01:08:00.000 of the things that they were doing was in really promoting voting, so that was one just an example of one of the things that the community brought to the table. Another thing that we did was, it was, we connected with the Jack and Jill organization (a membership organization of mothers with children ages 2-19, dedicated to nurturing future African-American leaders), and they ended up having their national conference at CSUSM. So you had all of these Black students from all over, in fact, I saw people from the state of Washington who came in and people who I knew who came in and were a part of that. And it was a 01:08:00.000 --> 01:09:00.000 huge and very empowering experience to see and be a part of. So yeah, those were the things. Jenkins: The more I'm hearing about the grand opening of the BSC, I wish I was there, you know? Gilmore: Yes. Jenkins: We didn't have anything like that at CSUN (California State University Northridge), so it just sounds really amazing. My next question is what has been the impact of the BSC on you personally? Gilmore: The impact of the BSC on me personally. You know, I would say that the impact on me personally 01:09:00.000 --> 01:10:00.000 has been that, I too have been able to receive from the types of educational events that we put on and to learn from those events about things that I didn't know about and so education is, was a big part. Or has been a big part. The other very big part and was being able to connect with the students, you know? And so because I had the Black Student Center in my area then that was one of the places where I would come in and actually spend time with students. 01:10:00.000 --> 01:11:00.000 And I would say that, in my role, student interaction is something that doesn't occur as often as I would like. And so having oversight of the Black Student Center actually gave me the opportunity to interact with our students a whole lot more. And so that would--so those would be those things. And then also, as I mentioned, the connections around the community that were established. Those would be the impacts that the 01:11:00.000 --> 01:12:00.000 Black Center has had on me personally. Jenkins: Amazing. What do you expect to see next for the BSC? Gilmore: Well, I see the Black Student Center really just going to the next level under the direction of Mr. Rawlins and Dr. Cole-Avent. And really seeing the two of them bring to fruition the kinds of things that we've been talking about here, which is really that student success and also engaging students in those very meaningful 01:12:00.000 --> 01:12:56.000 activities and experiences that would contribute to their success as students and also to their success as professionals as they get ready to graduate and leave this University. Jenkins: (Unintelligible) Are there any questions I should have asked that I didn't? Gilmore: I think you have done an excellent job of asking questions in this interview and I can't think of anything. Jenkins: Awesome. Thank you. Let me see what I have here. Well, thank you for very much for your time today. And thanks for being a part of this project. We all really appreciate it. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.xml GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Gilmore, Geoffrey. Interview April 14th, 2021. Description An account of the resource Dr. Geoffrey Gilmore played a key role in the development of the Black Student Center at CSUSM. In this interview, Gilmore touches on the issues of Black people within academic spaces and his experience helping students to succeed on a university level. Dr. Gilmore also discusses his own history as he moved from Los Angeles to Seattle, and back to California. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-04 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-14 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Geoffrey Gilmore Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sierra Jenkins Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America Activism, Student Anti-Black Racism California State University San Marcos, Black Student Center Student Success, Black Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Los Angeles (Calif.) Seattle (Wash.) San Marcos (Calif.) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Seth Stanley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gerardo Cabral OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CabralGerardo_StanleySeth_2023-04-28.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. LGBTQA;Gay;Cross-Cultural Center;CSUSM OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Cabral, Gerardo. Interview April 28th, 2023. SC027-36 00:42:54 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State Universtity San Mrcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; LGBTQ+ life ; Education, Higher ; Human rights ; Student success LGBTQA ; Gay ; Cross-Cultural Center ; CSUSM Gerardo Cabral Seth Stanley Audio CabralGerardo_StanleySeth_2023-04-28 1:|15(11)|32(3)|47(5)|61(5)|84(4)|96(5)|112(9)|125(17)|142(9)|160(3)|174(5)|192(3)|205(14)|222(6)|240(3)|257(6)|270(9)|282(7)|298(7)|311(5)|323(4)|347(13)|364(5)|375(9)|391(5)|402(8)|413(2)|425(2)|459(11)|471(10)|485(4)|499(2)|512(9)|523(3)|537(4)|552(4)|567(11)|574(3)|595(10)|607(6)|616(6)|627(4)|641(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/36df964a2128464e17075f579d463428.m4a Other audio english 1 Interview Introduction 0 23 Educational background Cabral was born in San Diego and started off at Palomar college before continuing on at CSUSM. San Diego ; California State San Marcos ; Palomar 0 88 Getting involved in Cross-Cultural Center (CCC)/ Career experience Cabral explains how because of his courses and understanding of ethnic studies he wanted to apply to the Multicultural Center (now the CCC). Cabral received a position as peer educator and learned community building techniques which he later applied to his job at SDSU (San Diego State University) as a resident director. He then moved to Sacramento State and got a job in student outreach and engagement. Shortly after, Cabral moved back to San Diego and began a job more centered around first generation and LatinX backgrounds. California State San Marcos ; Peer educator ; Palomar Community College ; Ethnic Studies ; Equity ; Diversity ; latinx 0 586 Community Relations Manager at ABC-10 Cabral explains his role as a Community Relations Manager at ABC-10 and how he is a brand ambassador for the local community. He ensures that through the news the community can feel represented, and that the news can be trusted as a voice for the locals. ABC-10 ; Community ; relationships 0 799 Fostering Relations Cabral explains how he created a segment for the ABC-10 news that has a multicultural lens and provides representation to the local community, building relationships amongst the news team and the community, allowing news to be catered and personalized to the community members. Alex Bell ; Community ; Multicultural ; representation 0 1100 Advice for One Working in Community Relations Cabral explains how one must be their authentic self when building community. That their morals and values must line up with their job. To elevate ones story they must serve with their community in mind. authentic ; morals ; values ; serving 0 1296 Starting at the Cross-Cultural Center/ Sara Sheikh Cabral explains how small and underdeveloped the Cross-Cultural Center was when he started. Despite the size, the staff helped the school practice diversity and inclusivity. Sara Sheikh was Cabral's mentor and set the tone for the center. She helped to educate, train and encourage students on being their authentic selves in group settings. Sara Sheikh ; Social Justice Retreat ; mentor ; educating ; teaching ; learning 0 1725 Living Authentically The Cross-Cultural Center provided Cabral a space to be his true self and gave him resources to come out as a gay man to his family. It allowed him to live authentically and provided him with confidence that he could use to empower the community. authentic ; gay ; empower ; community ; authentic 0 2045 CCC Help Cabral Professionally/Favorite memory Cabral explains how the CCC helped him to be more confident in any space. He explains how his favorite memory was the Social Justice Summit. This is where he was able to be vulnerable and learn about others who attended. He explains how those who went to the summit became enlightened about themselves. Social Justice Summit ; Diversity, Equity, and Inclusivity ; Confident ; authentic 0 2304 Role of CCC to Coexist with Identity Spaces Cabral explains how the CCC can coexist with and work with other centers to provide resources for all. Cross-Cultural Center ; LGBT Center ; Gender Equity Center ; Pride Center ; ethnic ; identity 0 Gerardo Cabral is a California State University San Marcos alumnus. He graduated with his Bachelors of Business degree in 2011. Gerardo worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2011. In this interview, Cabral discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center was a space that cultivated and enriched self-identity. It provided not only students with a voice but Cabral to begin living his true authentic life. Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley. Today I am interviewing Gerardo Cabral for the California State University San Marcos Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 28th, 2023, and this interview is taking place via Zoom. Hi Gerardo. Thank you for coming. Gerardo Cabral: Hey, Seth! Stanley: To start off, could you give me a, a bit of background and how you ended up at CSUSM? Cabral: Yeah, so I'm originally from San Diego, and born and raised there. And so Cal State San Marcos and San Diego State were sort of my options. I, I didn't ever think of leaving. So how I ended up at Sac(ramento State)--or not Sac State--Cal State San Marcos is I transferred there after I did about five years at Palomar College. I was working full-time. And so with that , I worked with my EOP (Educational Opportunity Program) counselor and we, we submitted some applications locally. And so got into to Cal State San Marcos and I thought it was a great fit. Felt it, it, it felt good to attend and sort of in the current stage of my life at that moment. And so, accepted it and my journey started 2008. Stanley: Very cool. Could you tell us about your journey from, from be being a student at CSUSM to becoming a community relations manager at ABC 10 (News San Diego)? Cabral: Oh, wow. Yeah, that's a big question. (Stanley laughs). It's a long-- (both talking at once) Stanley: Go for it, man. Cabral: But essentially so, in 2008, so I graduated high school in 2003, and--and so I went to high school that didn't have a lot of support for sort of students of underprivileged and underserved backgrounds. So I really didn't have the choice of going to a four-year (college). I did have some of my friends go and they talked about their experience. As I was in college, I was experiencing sort of the, the life outside of their lens, outside of that lens. And so when I was going to Cal--, when I was going to Palomar, the community college I did, I did tell it to myself that I was gonna transfer into a four-year and I was going to make everything possible to get that quote unquote college experience without living on campus. So I did that. So when I got to Cal State San Marcos one of the first things was like, I wanted to get involved. I wanted to work on campus. Mind you, I was working full-time at, as a financial advisor at a credit union. But I felt it was so important for me to get that experience because if I didn't, I would probably regret it for the rest of my life. So I wanted to make sure that I made friends, that I worked on campus, that I really engaged with sort of the culture of the campus community. And so I went--I went online and I started looking at jobs, and I saw this peer educator position at the Cross-Cultural Center. I've always had, I took a lot of Chicano Studies classes, Ethnic Studies classes. So I really had this fond appreciation for multicultural education, and understanding, and you know, the, the, the work of what that all encompasses. And so, so I applied for that. To be honest, my interview probably didn't go as well because I was in, I was in the mindset of a financial advisor position. I had already been there for seven years, and so I thought like, oh, I'm gonna get this interview in the bag. But then once I started having them ask me questions about like, what's my, what's my definition of equity and diversity? I knew what it was, but I wasn't able to articulate it in a way where it's like, you know in sort of that academia space. So-- Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: I wasn't offered that position right away. But I did have a director at the time of Student Life in Leadership, her name is, Dilcie. Dr. Dilcie Perez. She came up to me and talked to me and was like, “Hey, like, you know you did, you did a good job, but you know there are some things that you could improve on in your interview.” And this, this, and that. And, you know as a, as a seasoned career staff already in the financial industry, it took me off guard that this individual actually provided me feedback. At the moment I was just-- that's interesting. But I really appreciated it after, because, you know, I was getting into a different career essentially, you know-- Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --because I had quit my full-time job. And then I went into this, in this multicultural education space. Nonetheless, I got the job. I was offered the job shortly after. I sort of was able to sort of articulate a little bit more my passions and my interest for the position. And yeah. So I did that. I was very involved in sort of the, that peer educator, the multicultural teaching work. And I think it was not--it was beneficial for me personally because I was learning firsthand some of these theories and things that were, that were being put into place. And I was sort of like starting to connect dots. ‘Cause I've always, I always knew what this was. I always practiced, you know, inclusivity, but I never was able to put terms to it until when I went into this role as a peer educator. So I would say that my foundation for community-building and community-connecting became stronger and solidified when I was in this role. So once I graduated, I went into become, I became a resident director at San Diego State (University). And I got-- simultaneously, I was working as my master's, my master's program. And so what I did was I was doing a lot of community-connecting. I was overseeing a staff of twenty-two individuals, and I was really building and fostering this inclusive living, working and live and work space at San Diego State. ‘Cause I was overseeing the dorms there. And then I had a staff. So really it, I was putting all my teachings into practice. And so that was, that happened for about five years. Then I transitioned out. and I took a job at Sac(ramento) State (University) as the Associate Director for Student Engagement and Outreach, which sort of aligned really closely with the work that I was already doing, sort of that community connecting, engaging with students, really making them feel belonged and providing events and services that made them feel welcome to campus. Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: So I did that for about a year. And then that was the first time I ever moved out of San Diego State. So I went--actually , I moved back to San Diego, (connection issue) shortly after, not because-- well one, I really didn't like the job and, and sort of its politics, but I was missing home a lot. So I came back and I worked for Barrio Logan College Institute, which was a nonprofit in Barrio Logan. And I was their--I was doing their college and career program there. So, I already had this understanding of like, how the pathways to get into college and, and really was sharing with them sort of their experiences and how to make the most of their experiences at the university level. Being sort of first generation and Latinx backgrounds. And basically teaching them sort of based off of my lived experiences. And then (both laugh) then in 2020, right before I took a job at Sac State, ’cause my husband was actually in Sacramento when I moved out there the first time, he stayed. And so I went back there , and then I took a job in Alumni Relations where I was really fostering relationships with a lot of community members, really doing a lot of philanthropy work, development work and a lot of development work is all relationship building. And I think within this role, you know, as a peer educator, I was building a lot of trust. I was building a lot of relationships with individuals who perhaps didn't understand the concepts or understandings of diversity, equity, and inclusion, but was able to really foster those relationships and really meet them at where they were at. So, we could teach them sort of the importance of that-- Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --or at least have them hear us out in those spaces. So that was, so that was that. And then, then in 2021, I was--I mean we were all in a pandemic and so we were all sort of at a standstill, but I was sort of, I was sort of recruited into this role that I currently have now . I wasn't job searching, but you know, I had taken a leadership program during COVID(-19) or during quarantine, and my name was sort of thrown out. Somebody invited me out for coffee, offered me this great opportunity that I couldn't pass up because it felt really great, and here I am! (Stanley laughs) And so I've been there almost two years now, come September. It's crazy to even think that I've been in this role for two years and I'm working in broadcasting. But it is something that I never would've thought. But I have never regretted it once and I enjoy it. I've, I've enjoyed it ever since. Stanley: Wow. Well, what a story. (Both laugh) Cabral: Yes. Right. Stanley: Yeah. Could you, could you tell me about your current role, as Community Relations Manager? Cabral: Yeah. So, like you said I'm the current Community Relations Manager at ABC-10 which is--our call letters are KXTV for the broadcast folks out there. But yeah, so we're, ABC-10 is a local, is a Sacramento local news station that broadcasts news for three of the counties here in Northern California: Sacramento County, Modesto (County), and Stockton (County). And my primary role is really--is to be the brand ambassador for my station and for my organization. It's really about going out and infusing myself into the community and really letting people know who we are, what we do, and what we stand for, our brand. I'm sort--I'm housed out of marketing and so a lot of my role is intentional marketing, with a focus of, you know, relationship building. And so I do a lot of the work. I mean, I wish I could say what I do in one sentence, (Stanley laughs) but I feel like I can't-- Stanley: Well. Cabral: --but, Oh, go ahead . Stanley: (unintelligible) Say several sentences (laughs). Cabral: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, essentially, like I said, I'm the brand ambassador. And so what that encompasses is really just, you know, our brand is: we stand--ABC-10, we stand for you. It's really you know, historically, news outlets have always been sort of seen as negative outlets for storytelling. You know with, because we're typically always covering shootings, deaths, killings and things like that. And so we've made it our mission before I even got here--five years ago when we rebranded and we reevaluated our mission and values for the station. We wanted to, we--our organization had committed to making sure that we were the community leader and sharing stories not only in the sense of letting people (be) aware of the things that are happening maybe that are challenging in our communities, but also those things that are elevating and impacting, celebrating the things in our community. So we, so my role is to build those community relationships, that community trust and share with them that, hey, we're looking for community storytelling partners to not only--because again, we're none of us, not a lot of us in the newsroom are from Sacramento. So it's like having somebody tell a story from where you're from and you're like, oh, they don't even know, they don't even know San Diego like that. Right? If for me, I--when I see the news and I'm like, “Why would they call, why would they call it that?” I'm like, that's not Chula Vista. That's, San Ysidro or, this is Escondido not Nor-- whatever, you know, we start to nitpick. And so really, it's about again, that's what we're--we look for storytelling partners to help us tell the stories that are being impacted in the community. The great work that we are doing, the community leaders, how can we highlight them? Because again, we want to change this notion of news to be all negative, and we want it to be both informative but also celebratory as well . Because again we are part of the community. We are, sometimes individuals look at us as the face of the community-- Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --because they're watching us on the screen. And so what can we do to build that trust and to showcase the greatness that it, that is Sacramento. Stanley: Um-Hm. Would you have any examples of you doing development work or fostering relations? Cabral: Oh my gosh. Yeah (Stanley laughs). So when I was, one that I'm really proud of is that we--so when I first got on in September of last year, shortly after we had, we got--in the news, in the newsroom we get different airtime. And so we have, we had a 6:30 slot. And so we recruited and hired this young woman from Fresno, who's originally from Ohio, lived in L.A., went to Fresno, and then we hired her--her name's Alex Bell--to have her own show. Almost like David, World News, David Muir. And so we wanted to emulate that. And so we hired her, and I was part of her team. And part of her team was to really, we're launching the show from the ground up. We are building content, we are building visuals. So in that process, I was really able to talk about sort of ensuring that, you know, we're looking at this show and the image in a multicultural lens and in an inclusive lens, right? Because if-- Stanley: Yeah Cabral: This is, this gives us a great opportunity to start something that we've never done before. And so, and part of my role too was to be part is, was to be part of that community engagement team with her. So, because I was there and she started in October, I just hit the ground running. So we started in, we started infusing her in the community, really just having her meet some of the community leaders, letting people know, “Hey, we have this show coming, it's launching in August. It's all community driven. It's about story, it's like storytelling and talking about--it's going beyond the headlines of what we're talking about.” And we're doing long segmenting stories about communities, neighborhoods, groups of individuals, advocacy or advocates in our community. And we were able to launch this. And I think what the the thing that I was able to really gauge as a success was once we built these relationships in Aug-- in July, right before the launch of our show in August I was tasked to do sort of like a--not, I wasn't tasked, but I was like, “Hey, you know, we've met with all these individuals. Why don't we start doing a tour of Alex Bell meet and greets. Let's have her, let's have the community members meet the team, meet her, really have them share some of their story ideas.” Because that's what we look for, right? Stanley: Um-hmm. Cabral: Because, like story, we're always getting--we're getting emails constantly about story ideas, of what we could do, what we can cover, good, bad and the ugly. And so we did this. And so I worked with a lot of my community partners that I had fostered and built relationships with. And we were able to do six meet and greets throughout the, without--within the region of Sacramento. So, in Sac(ramento) and Stockton. We had seven meet and greets that were, that when we worked collaboratively, collaboratively with different nonprofit organizations and organizations to really have them. And probably at each event we had about a hundred people attend each of these events. And these are cons--these are constituents, these are our viewers, these are people in the community. People were excited to see this new face. And so, I was able to really create a a marketing campaign to really promote this event, these meet and greets. It's, they called (it), “Alex Bell Meet and Greets.” Because the show is “To the Point With Alex Bell.” So we were able to really home in on our community and lean on them to sort of share this information of the meet and greets. And it was great. (Connection issue ; unintelligible). Stanley: Um-Hm. Oh, oh, oh, no. Pause recording now. There we go. Mute. Please continue. Sorry about that. Cabral: (Connection issue ; unintelligible) We were able to gauge the success was-- (unintelligible) Stanley: Oh, man. Cabral: Yeah. But I mean, I think I sort of just sort of shared sort of what I did and the success it was for our meet and greets at, at the station. And I think it was through those relationships that I was able to build, it was a success. Stanley: Um-Hm. All right. Before we get into your experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center just one more question. What advice would you give someone starting out in the, in a field like community relations? Cabral: Gosh. I mean, I think you have to start, you have to--oh, that's a great question. Stanley: (laughs) All good. Cabral: It has to be, it has to be authentic. I think, you know, in a space where you have to build relationships for--and there is a certain goal in mind, make sure the goal aligns with your values, first off, because I know there's a lot of jobs that are out there that you have to build relationships, whether it's because you have to meet a sales quota or because you're like intentionally and authentically needing a certain thing. Or wanting some sort of reciprocation. And in my situation, you know, the reciprocation is that in hopes that I build relationships, that we see that our community partners will feel welcomed and trusted to share with us the newsroom in, in a time if there ever is a need of some sort. Or they're wanting to help elevate a story or a story pitch. And that aligns with me. I think, you know, I know a lot of sales folks who have to build relationships, but they're building the relationships because they have to get something out of it. And I think that can sometimes be unauthentic or transactional. So--and I'm not saying that that's bad, because, you know, we have a lot of phenomenal sales folks. It just really depends on where your values lie in, in sort. And for me, it was like, “I can't do transactional.” Transactional will be part of a relationship at some point in time, but I can't have it be the sole thing there. It can't be the priority or the priority purpose of my role. So for me, this community piece, when they were just like, “We just need you to build relationships and build trust,” I, when I heard that, I was like, “Absolutely.” And then I, right after that, I asked, “Well, what is your mission and values of the organization? And what are you all trying to accomplish?” And when they shared with me all of those things, I said, okay, that aligns really well with who I am as an individual. So this work is going to seem, I wouldn't say effortless, but it's going to come off a little bit easier for me because this is what I do . This is how I live. I live through authentic connections. Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: Through community building. And so that's, I think that's why I've been able to be so successful with my role. And so to go back to your question, what I, the advice that I give is, you know, if-- just make sure whatever work that you do aligns with your values and that the mission aligns with your values as an individual. Stanley: I like it. I like it (laughs). Cabral: Yep. Stanley: Well, let's get into the meat of the interview. Could you describe the, what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Cabral: Yeah. Oh, the Cross-Cultural Center was such a little center. I have not been back since I graduated, but-- Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --it was a small room, right next to the coffee cart. I don't even know where that's at anymore. But it was a very, very, very small room. And you know, we had a red couch and we had-- Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --you know, it was just like a little space. And essentially what it was, it was a community space for a lot of our multi-ethnic student organizations. It was a place where we put programming together. We did events. And it was a sub-department of Student Life and Leadership, if you will. Stanley: Um-Hm, yeah. Cabral: At the time we were working, gosh, in between (2011) through (2018), we had--at the time there was some phenomenal directors (in Student Life and Leadership) who worked very close--who built relationships amongst each other, who then really set the example for relationship-building. And so I know Sara Sheikh was like, she was my mentor. I used to see her as a beautiful soul. And as an individual who really, who really, gave me the foundation of who I'm today. And then we had Lea Burgess-Carland, who was the director of the Women's Center, which is now the Gender Equity Center. And I believe there was Roger, who was Roger De Andreas, who was the current Pride (LGBTQA Pride Center) director. And so at the time, those were the only three identity-based centers. And so we sort of had named ourselves the Social Justice Centers. And at the time they were all just very small. We had phenomenal, phenomenal staffing, programming. We were, we all were very collaborative and really--in really educating our campus community about inclusivity of gender equity of LGBT and sexual orientation theory and things of that nature. And so, yeah, it was, I mean, again it was (a) phenomenal time. Those--during that time, it was when I met some of my best friends who are still now my friends. So yeah. So that's a little bit about what that center was when we first got there. Stanley: Well I love hearing about the old red couches (laughter). Been interviewing people, people-- (Both talking) Cabral: --it was like the blue, it was like the Blues Clues couch, I swear. Stanley: (laughs) I heard you say that Sara Sheikh was your mentor. Could you tell me more about her? I actually was going to ask about her. Cabral: Oh, Sara Sheikh, my gosh. Where do I start? Sara Sheikh, she is an absolute beautiful soul. I just--very welcoming, inclusive, meets you where you're at. And I think as a mentor, as someone who had changed their career 100% to get into education I think it's like, there's a saying where there's people in your life that you didn't know you needed until you, until after the fact. And I think Sara Sheikh was that individual, you know as somebody who was closeted, gay, you know at the time that I was working there, she was able to help me embrace who I was as an individual. And to work those challenges out for me, like I said earlier, (connection issue) educating students and doing training and facilitating training. But I was a student as well because I was, as I was learning and teaching, I was learning myself. And I think she, Sara just had this, ugh, I don't know this beautiful aura of like, this, I--it's so hard to explain (Stanley laughs). I, we, I talk to my friends about Sara, and we're just like, “Yo, we miss Sara,” because she's doing her own thing now with her family in Orange County. But it's like, what a beautiful soul she was and is, because (of) her intentionality and the way she taught things and the way she facilitated was just effortless. But I, we knew that either she al--she always had those strengths, or she learned. She learned that, but like how great it was for us to be able to be part of that journey for her and for her to teach us. Because again, when I talk about, you know, my way of facilitating. My way--my active listening skills, my way in approaching things in large group settings and talking about multiculturalism and diversity and equity and inclusion, I embody and sometimes say like, “What would Sara do?” Because essentially it's like she facilitated and had these things with such grace, and never have I met someone else like Sara, like before. I hope you get to interview her, or somebody gets to interview her on sort of the f-- the foundation of what she's left, because, you know, I know her. And those, and the three directors that I mentioned started this social justice, the Social Justice Retreat, which was just absolutely incredible. In, in, in, in, in the time. And, you know, people who attended needed these spaces, needed these awakenings to really, to explore who they were as individuals, who they were as allies, who they were in their current state at that time. So yeah. So that's a little bit about Sara. Stanley: Well, I love that. I think it's pretty, pretty funny that I've interviewed a few people so far (laughs), and they've also called her a beautiful soul and-- Cabral: Aww Stanley: And also said, “What would Sarah do?” (Both laugh) And yeah, I didn't get to interview her, but one of my colleagues did and apparently was an incredible interview. So (laughs). Cabral: Oh God, I would love to hear it. God, I miss her voice so much. Stanley : Well it'll be up in the archives. Once it's up-- Cabral: Yes! Stanely: I'll be happy to send it to you. Yeah. Cabral: Oh my God, if you can, I would love that. Stanley: Perfect. Cabral: I would love it. Stanley: Anyway, continuing on, in what ways did your involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center help you expand and develop as a person? Cabral: Oh Gosh. In what ways? Stanley: Um-hm. Yes. Cabral: Geez. I mean, in every way possible. In any way imaginatory, you know, as I think before I got into the Cross-Cultural Center, I was just living, I don't think I was living authentically. You know, I think--and again--being a closeted man as well-- Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --as gay Latino, I was, I didn't know where my future was going to go. And I think, you know, again, I didn't know I needed that space until I actually realized it. And once I was in it, or after the fact, and, you know I think being in that space, having Dilcie (Perez) giving me that opportunity to actually be a peer educator too, was beneficial personally and professionally. And I was able to come out as an openly gay man, which is--now I'm happily married and been in my, my relationship with for eight years and. You know, we have a family. And so if--I guess I always question and think about, if I were not in this space, if I was not, if I didn't challenge myself to really dive deep into who I was as an individual, would I be where I'm at today? I don't know. Because, you know--and I was a late--I was a student, I wasn't your traditional quote unquote, “traditionally-aged college student.” You know, I went to community college for five years. I was already in my career in the finance industry. And so when I was at Cal State San Marcos, I was working with a lot of folks who had just graduated high school, but I was already in my mid-twenties. And so, you know, I was in my mid-twenties, didn't know who I was as--I knew who I was as individual, as an individual, but I wasn't able to live it authentically. And so being in this space, being in this role (at the Cross-Cultural Center), having mentors who are just like, “I am out and proud and this is who I am,” empowered me to be that. Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: And so for that I'm forever grateful. And which--and I think--which is why I made it a service of mine to live authentically, and to embrace, and to embrace who I am as an individual of my multiple identities that I have in hopes that I can too empower the youth, the--those new newly admitted college students or even adults, you know? And so, and I do have people time and time again, say like, “Wow, Gerardo you, I love how you just live authentically,” or I love how just authentic you are. And I was like, “That is, that is the only way you should live.” While I'm privileged to be able to live that way, you know, I know not everybody is. And so, it's, it's yeah. So I think to answer your question on how it's, how being in this space and in this role has changed me: I think it's changed me 100% of who I am today. And how--and the success of my career and personally and even the success within familial relationships, because I never had the tools of how to speak to my parents on who I was as an individual. How was I gonna come out to my parents and tell them? And, you know, through these facilitation courses, of training that I went through and these activism skills, I was able to come out to my parents in a way that, you know, I was able to help them understand too. And I gave them grace too, because they don't know any of sort of like the lingo that we talk about in academia (Stanley laughs), you know, because they don't have an (connection Issue ; inaudible)-- they for me to talk about equity and belonging and inclusivity, like none of that. They don't understand any of that. So I really had to be able to formulate words to where I was able to meet them where they're at and tell them how I appreciate them accepting me for who I am and having those difficult conversations. So I think it just, and my experience has, has impacted every aspect of my life. Stanley: Well, that's fantastic. I'm glad that the CCC really helped you in that way. I guess on the, on the flip side, oh (laughs), on the flip side of that question I would, I would ask how did the Cross-Cultural Center help you develop as a professional? Cabral: How did they how did the CCC-- (connection issue ; inaudible) Stanley: CCC help you develop as a professional? Cabral: Great question. I mean as a professional, I was able to navigate certain spaces with--you know--at the end of the day, we were a department of Student Life and Leadership. There were processes, protocols in place that we needed to follow, and so (connection issue ; audio cut)-- worked for other organizations and the finance industry. And so I knew protocol of like working, I knew expectations of the workplace. I knew the consequences or the repercussions if: should I not show up to work? Should I not turn in my timecard on time? Should I not follow procedures? I already knew what those, what those actions (connection Issue ; inaudible). So I felt, you know, I took this job extremely seriously already. I think it just helped me more so--be more confident in having conversations regarding these topics of multicultural education and in the DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) space. Stanley: All right. Well so you said yeah, co-- just more confidence. Yeah. Cabral: Yeah, I would say so. Stanley: Hmm. We're, we're winding down here. Let me ask you, what would maybe be your favorite memory from the Cross-Cultural Center? Or just a memory, if you can't think of a specific one? Cabral: Oh (Stanley laughs). What was a favorite memory? Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: Oh my gosh (Stanley laughs). There's so many. And I would have to say, my experience at the Social Justice Summit. Stanley: Okay. Cabral: You know, it was a weekend, a weekend retreat. And you know, you were committing to put yourself in a 100% vulnerable space. And I think for me it was great. You know, different types of life, like walks of life, walk into that room and be vulnerable and have those conversations and see the light bulbs. I saw the light bulbs myself, for myself. I saw them with others, and just the space that we were able to create that that they created of leaders, because I was a participant the first year, and then the next year I was a facilitator. And forever I (connection Issue ; audio cut)-- we, we helped facilitate and work with young leaders who wanted to explore their identities and this, (connection Issue ; audio cut)-- I would say. Then the other one sort-- (connection Issue ; unintelligible). Can you hear me? Stanley: Oh hi, sorry. It, it, it cut out a little, but I (both talking) heard, I heard mostly-- Cabral: Oh yeah. Stanley: You said-- Cabral: Oh, yeah. Okay, cool. Stanley: Were, were you finished with your thought? I'm sorry about that. Cabral: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did. Stanley: Okay. And I'll wrap up the interview. I like to ask this one, this last question. What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces? Spaces like the Latin /x Center or the Black Student Center, places like that? Cabral: Oh, gosh. I mean that's a hard (connection issue ; inaudible) (question) for me to answer because I've seen the value of cross-cultural center spaces in various different campuses, and I've been part of those conversations as well at other campuses. But I also see the value of identity-specific centers and and some--the concern always comes up in these conversations at other institutions about, “Well, where does that lead to Cross-Culture Center?” Right? Because now that we've expanded into all these identity-based centers, what is now the purpose for the Cross-Culture Center? And to be completely honest, for me it's hard to answer because I'm just, I'm not entirely sure, because before we were a space where all identities and all ethnic groups were welcome then now that there are these spaces specific to these ethnic groups, like I'm, I'm curious. And again, I leave that up to that--the folks in academia and student affairs folks, because again, I'm not saying that it should be, like we should, we should remove them. I'm just curious as to how--I'm excited to see how we--we, because I feel like I'm sort of in an academia space still, but like how academia or the university sees this: the (Cross-Cultural) Center moving forward in a time where there's now a need for these ethnic spaces. So I am not entirely sure. What I hope is that, you know we are like, in an ideal world, I would love for the Cross-Cultural Center to be its own division, and then have the ethnic centers be within the Cross-Cultural Center. You know, because, you know, we--and then have the work talk about sort of that intersectionality piece of it all, of, of--with the Pride Center, with the LGBT Center, with the Gender Equity Center and things of that nature, because I think they all coexist together. And they all intersect, but it's like, how do we make sure that we intentionally do programming? And that's what that's what happened. You know, back in--when we were there, our directors made it a point that we did programs and we had assigned teams. So, you know, one member from the Cross-Cultural Center, from the Women's Center, and from the Pride Center would work on one program, and we had to make sure that we were being intentional with intersecting those identities to include as many diverse individuals as possible. And looking at it through different lenses. You know, because we're like, just because we're (connection Issue ; audio cut)-- So, like, we were always making sure that we're trying to like build those, those identities there. Stanley: Hm. All right. Well, yeah I ask that question to every interview(ee), and they do say a lot of similar things. The intentionality is what they always say. It's like they need to know what they're going to do with the center sort of thing. So thank you so much, Gerardo, for coming and I'll inter--, end the interview here. Cabral: Alright, Seth, thank you so much for your time and I look forward to, yeah, once you're done, please send, send that link over. I would love to listen to other folks. Stanley: (Laughs) I'm gonnna stop the recording here. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=CabralGerardo_StanleySeth_2023-04-28.xml CabralGerardo_StanleySeth_2023-04-28.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cabral, Gerardo. Interview April 28th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Gerardo Cabral is a California State University San Marcos alumnus. He graduated with his Bachelors of Business degree in 2011. Gerardo worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2011. In this interview, Cabral discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center was a space that cultivated and enriched self-identity. It provided not only students with a voice but Cabral to begin living his true authentic life. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-36 Subject The topic of the resource Broadcast journalism California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center LGBTQ+ life Education, Higher Human rights Student success Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-28 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gerardo Cabral Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Sacramento (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Gerardo Cabral Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience LGBTQIA+ experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6b22ccbc00d0322a6ff45172fc768927.pdf 510d392504b80cf01ac05eeecaed2feb PDF Text Text TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley. Today I am interviewing Gerardo Cabral for the California State University San Marcos Cross-Cultural Center Oral History project. Today is April 28th, 2023, and this interview is taking place via Zoom. Hi Gerardo. Thank you for coming. Gerardo Cabral: Hey, Seth! (Both Laugh) Stanley: To start off, could you give me a, a bit of background and how you ended up at CSUSM? Cabral: Yeah, so I'm originally from San Diego, and born and raised there. And so Cal State San Marcos and San Diego State were sort of my options. I, I didn't ever think of leaving. So how I ended up at Sac(ramento State)--or not Sac State--Cal State San Marcos is I transferred there after I did about five years at Palomar College. I was working full-time. And so with that, I worked with my EOP (Educational Opportunity Program) counselor and we, we submitted some applications locally. And so got into to Cal State San Marcos and I thought it was a great fit. Felt it, it, it felt good to attend and sort of in the current stage of my life at that moment. And so, accepted it and my journey started 2008. Stanley: Very cool. Could you tell us about your journey from, from be being a student at CSUSM to becoming a community relations manager at ABC 10 (News San Diego)? Cabral: Oh, wow. Yeah, that's a big question. (Stanley laughs). It's a long-- (both talking at once) Stanley: Go for it, man. Cabral: But essentially so, in 2008, so I graduated high school in 2003, and--and so I went to high school that didn't have a lot of support for sort of students of underprivileged and underserved backgrounds. So I really didn't have the choice of going to a four-year (college). I did have some of my friends go and they talked about their experience. As I was in college, I was experiencing sort of the, the life outside of their lens, outside of that lens. And so when I was going to Cal--, when I was going to Palomar, the community college I did, I did tell it to myself that I was gonna transfer into a four-year and I was going to make everything possible to get that quote unquote college experience without living on campus. So I did that. So when I got to Cal State San Marcos one of the first things was like, I wanted to get involved. I wanted to work on campus. Mind you, I was working full-time at, as a financial advisor at a credit union. But I Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 1 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral felt it was so important for me to get that experience because if I didn't, I would probably regret it for the rest of my life. So I wanted to make sure that I made friends, that I worked on campus, that I really engaged with sort of the culture of the campus community. And so I went--I went online and I started looking at jobs, and I saw this peer educator position at the Cross-Cultural Center. I've always had, I took a lot of Chicano Studies classes, Ethnic Studies classes. So I really had this fond appreciation for multicultural education, and understanding, and you know, the, the, the work of what that all encompasses. And so, so I applied for that. To be honest, my interview probably didn't go as well because I was in, I was in the mindset of a financial advisor position. I had already been there for seven years, and so I thought like, oh, I'm gonna get this interview in the bag. But then once I started having them ask me questions about like, what's my, what's my definition of equity and diversity? I knew what it was, but I wasn't able to articulate it in a way where it's like, you know in sort of that academia space. So-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: I wasn't offered that position right away. But I did have a director at the time of Student Life in Leadership, her name is, Dilcie. Dr. Dilcie Perez. She came up to me and talked to me and was like, “Hey, like, you know you did, you did a good job, but you know there are some things that you could improve on in your interview.” And this, this, and that. And, you know as a, as a seasoned career staff already in the financial industry, it took me off guard that this individual actually provided me feedback. At the moment I was just-- that's interesting. But I really appreciated it after, because, you know, I was getting into a different career essentially, you know-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --because I had quit my full-time job. And then I went into this, in this multicultural education space. Nonetheless, I got the job. I was offered the job shortly after. I sort of was able to sort of articulate a little bit more my passions and my interest for the position. And yeah. So I did that. I was very involved in sort of the, that peer educator, the multicultural teaching work. And I think it was not--it was beneficial for me personally because I was learning firsthand some of these theories and things that were, that were being put into place. And I was sort of like starting to connect dots. ‘Cause I've always, I always knew what this was. I always practiced, you know, inclusivity, but I never was able to put terms to it until when I went into this role as a peer educator. So I would say that my foundation for community-building and community-connecting became stronger and solidified when I was in this role. So once I graduated, I went into become, I became a resident director at San Diego State (University). And I got-- simultaneously, I was working as my master's, my master's program. And so what I did was I was doing a lot of community-connecting. I was overseeing a staff of twenty-two individuals, and I was really building and fostering this inclusive living, working and live and work space at San Diego State. ‘Cause I was overseeing the dorms there. And then I had a staff. So really it, I was putting all my teachings into practice. And so that was, that happened for about five years. Then I transitioned out. and I took a job at Sac(ramento) State (University) as the Associate Director for Student Engagement and Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 2 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Outreach, which sort of aligned really closely with the work that I was already doing, sort of that community connecting, engaging with students, really making them feel belonged and providing events and services that made them feel welcome to campus. Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: So I did that for about a year. And then that was the first time I ever moved out of San Diego State. So I went--actually, I moved back to San Diego, (connection issue) shortly after, not because-- well one, I really didn't like the job and, and sort of its politics, but I was missing home a lot. So I came back and I worked for Barrio Logan College Institute, which was a nonprofit in Barrio Logan. And I was their--I was doing their college and career program there. So, I already had this understanding of like, how the pathways to get into college and, and really was sharing with them sort of their experiences and how to make the most of their experiences at the university level. Being sort of first generation and Latinx backgrounds. And basically teaching them sort of based off of my lived experiences. And then (both laugh) then in 2020, right before I took a job at Sac State, ’cause my husband was actually in Sacramento when I moved out there the first time, he stayed. And so I went back there, and then I took a job in Alumni Relations where I was really fostering relationships with a lot of community members, really doing a lot of philanthropy work, development work and a lot of development work is all relationship building. And I think within this role, you know, as a peer educator, I was building a lot of trust. I was building a lot of relationships with individuals who perhaps didn't understand the concepts or understandings of diversity, equity, and inclusion, but was able to really foster those relationships and really meet them at where they were at. So, we could teach them sort of the importance of that-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --or at least have them hear us out in those spaces. So that was, so that was that. And then, then in 2021, I was--I mean we were all in a pandemic and so we were all sort of at a standstill, but I was sort of, I was sort of recruited into this role that I currently have now. I wasn't job searching, but you know, I had taken a leadership program during COVID(-19) or during quarantine, and my name was sort of thrown out. Somebody invited me out for coffee, offered me this great opportunity that I couldn't pass up because it felt really great, and here I am! (Stanley Laughs) And so I've been there almost two years now, come September. It's crazy to even think that I've been in this role for two years and I'm working in broadcasting. But it is something that I never would've thought. But I have never regretted it once and I enjoy it. I've, I've enjoyed it ever since. Stanley: Wow. Well, what a story. (Both laugh) Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 3 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Cabral: Yes. Right. Stanley: Yeah. Could you, could you tell me about your current role, as Community Relations Manager? Cabral: Yeah. So, like you said I'm the current Community Relations Manager at ABC-10 which is--our call letters are KXTV for the broadcast folks out there. But yeah, so we're, ABC-10 is a local, is a Sacramento local news station that broadcasts news for three of the counties here in Northern California: Sacramento County, Modesto (County), and Stockton (County). And my primary role is really--is to be the brand ambassador for my station and for my organization. It's really about going out and infusing myself into the community and really letting people know who we are, what we do, and what we stand for, our brand. I'm sort--I'm housed out of marketing and so a lot of my role is intentional marketing, with a focus of, you know, relationship building. And so I do a lot of the work. I mean, I wish I could say what I do in one sentence, (Stanley laughs) but I feel like I can't-Stanley: Well. Cabral: --but, Oh, go ahead. Stanley: (unintelligible) Say several sentences, (laughs). Cabral: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, essentially, like I said, I'm the brand ambassador. And so what that encompasses is really just, you know, our brand is: we stand--ABC-10, we stand for you. It's really you know, historically, news outlets have always been sort of seen as negative outlets for storytelling. You know with, because we're typically always covering shootings, deaths, killings and things like that. And so we've made it our mission before I even got here--five years ago when we rebranded and we reevaluated our mission and values for the station. We wanted to, we--our organization had committed to making sure that we were the community leader and sharing stories not only in the sense of letting people (be) aware of the things that are happening maybe that are challenging in our communities, but also those things that are elevating and impacting, celebrating the things in our community. So we, so my role is to build those community relationships, that community trust and share with them that, hey, we're looking for community storytelling partners to not only--because again, we're none of us, not a lot of us in the newsroom are from Sacramento. So it's like having somebody tell a story from where you're from and you're like, oh, they don't even know, they don't even know San Diego like that. Right? If for me, I--when I see the news and I'm like, “Why would they call, why would they call it that?” I'm like, that's not Chula Vista. That's, San Ysidro or, this is Escondido not Nor-- whatever, you know, we start to nitpick. And so really, it's about again, that's what we're--we look for storytelling partners to help us tell the stories that are being impacted in the community. The great work that we are doing, the community leaders, how can we highlight them? Because again, we want to change this notion of news Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 4 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral to be all negative, and we want it to be both informative but also celebratory as well. Because again we are part of the community. We are, sometimes individuals look at us as the face of the community-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --because they're watching us on the screen. And so what can we do to build that trust and to showcase the greatness that it, that is Sacramento. Stanley: Um-Hm. Would you have any examples of you doing development work or fostering relations? Cabral: Oh my gosh. Yeah (Stanley laughs). So when I was, one that I'm really proud of is that we--so when I first got on in September of last year, shortly after we had, we got--in the news, in the newsroom we get different airtime. And so we have, we had a 6:30 slot. And so we recruited and hired this young woman from Fresno, who's originally from Ohio, lived in L.A., went to Fresno, and then we hired her-her name's Alex Bell--to have her own show. Almost like David, World News, David Muir. And so we wanted to emulate that. And so we hired her, and I was part of her team. And part of her team was to really, we're launching the show from the ground up. We are building content, we are building visuals. So in that process, I was really able to talk about sort of ensuring that, you know, we're looking at this show and the image in a multicultural lens and in an inclusive lens, right? Because if-Stanley: Yeah Cabral: This is, this gives us a great opportunity to start something that we've never done before. And so, and part of my role too was to be part is, was to be part of that community engagement team with her. So, because I was there and she started in October, I just hit the ground running. So we started in, we started infusing her in the community, really just having her meet some of the community leaders, letting people know, “Hey, we have this show coming, it's launching in August. It's all community driven. It's about story, it's like storytelling and talking about--it's going beyond the headlines of what we're talking about.” And we're doing long segmenting stories about communities, neighborhoods, groups of individuals, advocacy or advocates in our community. And we were able to launch this. And I think what the the thing that I was able to really gauge as a success was once we built these relationships in Aug-- in July, right before the launch of our show in August I was tasked to do sort of like a--not, I wasn't tasked, but I was like, “Hey, you know, we've met with all these individuals. Why don't we start doing a tour of Alex Bell meet and greets. Let's have her, let's have the community members meet the team, meet her, really have them share some of their story ideas.” Because that's what we look for, right? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 5 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Stanley: Um-hmm. Cabral: Because, like story, we're always getting--we're getting emails constantly about story ideas, of what we could do, what we can cover, good, bad and the ugly. And so we did this. And so I worked with a lot of my community partners that I had fostered and built relationships with. And we were able to do six meet and greets throughout the, without--within the region of Sacramento. So, in Sac(ramento) and Stockton. We had seven meet and greets that were, that when we worked collaboratively, collaboratively with different nonprofit organizations and organizations to really have them. And probably at each event we had about a hundred people attend each of these events. And these are cons--these are constituents, these are our viewers, these are people in the community. People were excited to see this new face. And so, I was able to really create a a marketing campaign to really promote this event, these meet and greets. It's, they called (it), “Alex Bell Meet and Greets.” Because the show is “To the Point With Alex Bell.” So we were able to really home in on our community and lean on them to sort of share this information of the meet and greets. And it was great. (Connection issue; unintelligible). Stanley: Um-Hm. Oh, oh, oh, no. Pause recording now. There we go. Mute. Please continue. Sorry about that. Cabral: (Connection issue; unintelligible) We were able to gauge the success was-- (unintelligible) Stanley: Oh, man. Cabral: Yeah. But I mean, I think I sort of just sort of shared sort of what I did and the success it was for our meet and greets at, at the station. And I think it was through those relationships that I was able to build, it was a success. Stanley: Um-Hm. All right. Before we get into your experiences with the Cross-Cultural Center just one more question. What advice would you give someone starting out in the, in a field like community relations? Cabral: Gosh. I mean, I think you have to start, you have to--oh, that's a great question. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 6 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Stanley: (laughs) All good. Cabral: It has to be, it has to be authentic. I think, you know, in a space where you have to build relationships for--and there is a certain goal in mind, make sure the goal aligns with your values, first off, because I know there's a lot of jobs that are out there that you have to build relationships, whether it's because you have to meet a sales quota or because you're like intentionally and authentically needing a certain thing. Or wanting some sort of reciprocation. And in my situation, you know, the reciprocation is that in hopes that I build relationships, that we see that our community partners will feel welcomed and trusted to share with us the newsroom in, in a time if there ever is a need of some sort. Or they're wanting to help elevate a story or a story pitch. And that aligns with me. I think, you know, I know a lot of sales folks who have to build relationships, but they're building the relationships because they have to get something out of it. And I think that can sometimes be unauthentic or transactional. So--and I'm not saying that that's bad, because, you know, we have a lot of phenomenal sales folks. It just really depends on where your values lie in, in sort. And for me, it was like, “I can't do transactional.” Transactional will be part of a relationship at some point in time, but I can't have it be the sole thing there. It can't be the priority or the priority purpose of my role. So for me, this community piece, when they were just like, “We just need you to build relationships and build trust,” I, when I heard that, I was like, “Absolutely.” And then I, right after that, I asked, “Well, what is your mission and values of the organization? And what are you all trying to accomplish?” And when they shared with me all of those things, I said, okay, that aligns really well with who I am as an individual. So this work is going to seem, I wouldn't say effortless, but it's going to come off a little bit easier for me because this is what I do. This is how I live. I live through authentic connections. Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: Through community building. And so that's, I think that's why I've been able to be so successful with my role. And so to go back to your question, what I, the advice that I give is, you know, if-- just make sure whatever work that you do aligns with your values and that the mission aligns with your values as an individual. Stanley: I like it. I like it (laughs). Cabral: Yep. Stanley: Well, let's get into the meat of the interview. Could you describe the, what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 7 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Cabral: Yeah. Oh, the Cross-Cultural Center was such a little center. I have not been back since I graduated, but-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --it was a small room, right next to the coffee cart. I don't even know where that's at anymore. But it was a very, very, very small room. And you know, we had a red couch and we had-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --you know, it was just like a little space. And essentially what it was, it was a community space for a lot of our multi-ethnic student organizations. It was a place where we put programming together. We did events. And it was a sub-department of Student Life and Leadership, if you will. Stanley: Um-Hm, yeah. Cabral: At the time we were working, gosh, in between (2011) through (2018), we had--at the time there was some phenomenal directors (in Student Life and Leadership) who worked very close--who built relationships amongst each other, who then really set the example for relationship-building. And so I know Sara Sheikh was like, she was my mentor. I used to see her as a beautiful soul. And as an individual who really, who really, gave me the foundation of who I'm today. And then we had Lea Burgess-Carland, who was the director of the Women's Center, which is now the Gender Equity Center. And I believe there was Roger, who was Roger De Andreas, who was the current Pride (LGBTQA Pride Center) director. And so at the time, those were the only three identity-based centers. And so we sort of had named ourselves the Social Justice Centers. And at the time they were all just very small. We had phenomenal, phenomenal staffing, programming. We were, we all were very collaborative and really--in really educating our campus community about inclusivity of gender equity of LGBT and sexual orientation theory and things of that nature. And so, yeah, it was, I mean, again it was (a) phenomenal time. Those--during that time, it was when I met some of my best friends who are still now my friends. So yeah. So that's a little bit about what that center was when we first got there. Stanley: Well I love hearing about the old red couches (laughter). Been interviewing people, people-(Both talking) Cabral: --it was like the blue, it was like the Blues Clues couch, I swear. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 8 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Stanley: (laughs) I heard you say that Sara Sheikh was your mentor. Could you tell me more about her? I actually was going to ask about her. Cabral: Oh, Sara Sheikh, my gosh. Where do I start? Sara Sheikh, she is an absolute beautiful soul. I just-very welcoming, inclusive, meets you where you're at. And I think as a mentor, as someone who had changed their career 100% to get into education I think it's like, there's a saying where there's people in your life that you didn't know you needed until you, until after the fact. And I think Sara Sheikh was that individual, you know as somebody who was closeted, gay, you know at the time that I was working there, she was able to help me embrace who I was as an individual. And to work those challenges out for me, like I said earlier, (connection issue) educating students and doing training and facilitating training. But I was a student as well because I was, as I was learning and teaching, I was learning myself. And I think she, Sara just had this, ugh, I don't know this beautiful aura of like, this, I--it's so hard to explain (Stanley laughs). I, we, I talk to my friends about Sara, and we're just like, “Yo, we miss Sara,” because she's doing her own thing now with her family in Orange County. But it's like, what a beautiful soul she was and is, because (of) her intentionality and the way she taught things and the way she facilitated was just effortless. But I, we knew that either she al--she always had those strengths, or she learned. She learned that, but like how great it was for us to be able to be part of that journey for her and for her to teach us. Because again, when I talk about, you know, my way of facilitating. My way--my active listening skills, my way in approaching things in large group settings and talking about multiculturalism and diversity and equity and inclusion, I embody and sometimes say like, “What would Sara do?” Because essentially it's like she facilitated and had these things with such grace, and never have I met someone else like Sara, like before. I hope you get to interview her, or somebody gets to interview her on sort of the f-- the foundation of what she's left, because, you know, I know her. And those, and the three directors that I mentioned started this social justice, the Social Justice Retreat, which was just absolutely incredible. In, in, in, in, in the time. And, you know, people who attended needed these spaces, needed these awakenings to really, to explore who they were as individuals, who they were as allies, who they were in their current state at that time. So yeah. So that's a little bit about Sara. Stanley: Well, I love that. I think it's pretty, pretty funny that I've interviewed a few people so far (laughs), and they've also called her a beautiful soul and-Cabral: Aww Stanley: And also said, “What would Sarah do?” (Both laugh) And yeah, I didn't get to interview her, but one of my colleagues did and apparently was an incredible interview. So (laughs). Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 9 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Cabral: Oh God, I would love to hear it. God, I miss her voice so much. Stanley : Well it'll be up in the archives. Once it's up-Cabral: Yes! Stanely: I'll be happy to send it to you. Yeah. Cabral: Oh my God, if you can, I would love that. Stanley: Perfect. Cabral: I would love it. Stanley: Anyway, continuing on, in what ways did your involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center help you expand and develop as a person? Cabral: Oh Gosh. In what ways? Stanley: Um-hm. Yes. Cabral: Geez. I mean, in every way possible. In any way imaginary, you know, as I think before I got into the Cross-Cultural Center, I was just living, I don't think I was living authentically. You know, I think--and again--being a closeted man as well-Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: --as gay Latino, I was, I didn't know where my future was going to go. And I think, you know, again, I didn't know I needed that space until I actually realized it. And once I was in it, or after the fact, and, you know I think being in that space, having Dilcie (Perez) giving me that opportunity to actually be Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 10 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral a peer educator too, was beneficial personally and professionally. And I was able to come out as an openly gay man, which is--now I'm happily married and been in my, my relationship with for eight years and. You know, we have a family. And so if--I guess I always question and think about, if I were not in this space, if I was not, if I didn't challenge myself to really dive deep into who I was as an individual, would I be where I'm at today? I don't know. Because, you know--and I was a late--I was a student, I wasn't your traditional quote unquote, “traditionally-aged college student.” You know, I went to community college for five years. I was already in my career in the finance industry. And so when I was at Cal State San Marcos, I was working with a lot of folks who had just graduated high school, but I was already in my mid-twenties. And so, you know, I was in my mid-twenties, didn't know who I was as--I knew who I was as individual, as an individual, but I wasn't able to live it authentically. And so being in this space, being in this role (at the Cross-Cultural Center), having mentors who are just like, “I am out and proud and this is who I am,” empowered me to be that. Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: And so for that I'm forever grateful. And which--and I think--which is why I made it a service of mine to live authentically, and to embrace, and to embrace who I am as an individual of my multiple identities that I have in hopes that I can too empower the youth, the--those new newly admitted college students or even adults, you know? And so, and I do have people time and time again, say like, “Wow, Gerardo you, I love how you just live authentically,” or I love how just authentic you are. And I was like, “That is, that is the only way you should live.” While I'm privileged to be able to live that way, you know, I know not everybody is. And so, it's, it's yeah. So I think to answer your question on how it's, how being in this space and in this role has changed me: I think it's changed me 100% of who I am today. And how--and the success of my career and personally and even the success within familial relationships, because I never had the tools of how to speak to my parents on who I was as an individual. How was I gonna come out to my parents and tell them? And, you know, through these facilitation courses, of training that I went through and these activism skills, I was able to come out to my parents in a way that, you know, I was able to help them understand too. And I gave them grace too, because they don't know any of sort of like the lingo that we talk about in academia (Stanley laughs), you know, because they don't have an (connection Issue; inaudible)-- they for me to talk about equity and belonging and inclusivity, like none of that. They don't understand any of that. So I really had to be able to formulate words to where I was able to meet them where they're at and tell them how I appreciate them accepting me for who I am and having those difficult conversations. So I think it just, and my experience has, has impacted every aspect of my life. Stanley: Well, that's fantastic. I'm glad that the CCC really helped you in that way. I guess on the, on the flip side, oh (laughs), on the flip side of that question I would, I would ask how did the Cross-Cultural Center help you develop as a professional? Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 11 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Cabral: How did they how did the CCC-- (connection issue; inaudible) Stanley: CCC help you develop as a professional? Cabral: Great question. I mean as a professional, I was able to navigate certain spaces with--you know-at the end of the day, we were a department of Student Life and Leadership. There were processes, protocols in place that we needed to follow, and so (connection issue; audio cut)-- worked for other organizations and the finance industry. And so I knew protocol of like working, I knew expectations of the workplace. I knew the consequences or the repercussions if: should I not show up to work? Should I not turn in my timecard on time? Should I not follow procedures? I already knew what those, what those actions (connection Issue; inaudible). So I felt, you know, I took this job extremely seriously already. I think it just helped me more so--be more confident in having conversations regarding these topics of multicultural education and in the DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) space. Stanley: All right. Well so you said yeah, co-- just more confidence. Yeah. Cabral: Yeah, I would say so. Stanley: Hmm. We're, we're winding down here. Let me ask you, what would maybe be your favorite memory from the Cross-Cultural Center? Or just a memory, if you can't think of a specific one? Cabral: Oh (Stanley laughs). What was a favorite memory? Stanley: Yeah. Cabral: Oh my gosh (Stanley laughs). There's so many. And I would have to say, my experience at the Social Justice Summit. Stanley: Okay. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 12 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral Cabral: You know, it was a weekend, a weekend retreat. And you know, you were committing to put yourself in a 100% vulnerable space. And I think for me it was great. You know, different types of life, like walks of life, walk into that room and be vulnerable and have those conversations and see the light bulbs. I saw the light bulbs myself, for myself. I saw them with others, and just the space that we were able to create that that they created of leaders, because I was a participant the first year, and then the next year I was a facilitator. And forever I (connection Issue; audio cut)-- we, we helped facilitate and work with young leaders who wanted to explore their identities and this, (connection Issue; audio cut)-I would say. Then the other one sort-- (connection Issue; unintelligible). Can you hear me? Stanley: Oh hi, sorry. It, it, it cut out a little, but I (both talking) heard, I heard mostly-Cabral: Oh yeah. Stanley: You said-- Cabral: Oh, yeah. Okay, cool. Stanley: Were, were you finished with your thought? I'm sorry about that. Cabral: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did. Stanley: Okay. And I'll wrap up the interview. I like to ask this one, this last question. What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces? Spaces like the Latin@/x Center or the Black Student Center, places like that? Cabral: Oh, gosh. I mean that's a hard (connection issue; inaudible) (question) for me to answer because I've seen the value of cross-cultural center spaces in various different campuses, and I've been part of those conversations as well at other campuses. But I also see the value of identity-specific centers and and some--the concern always comes up in these conversations at other institutions about, “Well, where does that lead to Cross-Culture Center?” Right? Because now that we've expanded into all these identity-based centers, what is now the purpose for the Cross-Culture Center? And to be completely honest, for me it's hard to answer because I'm just, I'm not entirely sure, because before we were a space where all identities and all ethnic groups were welcome then now that there are these spaces Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 13 2023-10-21 �TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-04-28 Gerardo Cabral specific to these ethnic groups, like I'm, I'm curious. And again, I leave that up to that--the folks in academia and student affairs folks, because again, I'm not saying that it should be, like we should, we should remove them. I'm just curious as to how--I'm excited to see how we--we, because I feel like I'm sort of in an academia space still, but like how academia or the university sees this: the (Cross-Cultural) Center moving forward in a time where there's now a need for these ethnic spaces. So I am not entirely sure. What I hope is that, you know we are like, in an ideal world, I would love for the Cross-Cultural Center to be its own division, and then have the ethnic centers be within the Cross-Cultural Center. You know, because, you know, we--and then have the work talk about sort of that intersectionality piece of it all, of, of--with the Pride Center, with the LGBT Center, with the Gender Equity Center and things of that nature, because I think they all coexist together. And they all intersect, but it's like, how do we make sure that we intentionally do programming? And that's what that's what happened. You know, back in--when we were there, our directors made it a point that we did programs and we had assigned teams. So, you know, one member from the CrossCultural Center, from the Women's Center, and from the Pride Center would work on one program, and we had to make sure that we were being intentional with intersecting those identities to include as many diverse individuals as possible. And looking at it through different lenses. You know, because we're like, just because we're (connection Issue; audio cut)-- So, like, we were always making sure that we're trying to like build those, those identities there. Stanley: Hm. All right. Well, yeah I ask that question to every interview(ee), and they do say a lot of similar things. The intentionality is what they always say. It's like they need to know what they're going to do with the center sort of thing. So thank you so much, Gerardo, for coming and I'll inter--, end the interview here. Cabral: Alright, Seth, thank you so much for your time and I look forward to, yeah, once you're done, please send, send that link over. I would love to listen to other folks. Stanley: (Laughs) I'm gonnna stop the recording here. Transcribed by Geneva Martinot 14 2023-10-21 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cabral, Gerardo. Interview transcript, April 28, 2023. Description An account of the resource Gerardo Cabral is a California State University San Marcos alumnus. He graduated with his Bachelors of Business degree in 2011. Gerardo worked at the Cross-Cultural Center from 2008-2011. In this interview, Cabral discusses how the Cross-Cultural Center was a space that cultivated and enriched self-identity. It provided not only students with a voice but Cabral to begin living his true authentic life. This interview was conducted in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM and generously funded by the Instructionally Related Activities Fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gerardo Cabral Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Geneva Martinot Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-28 Subject The topic of the resource Broadcast journalism California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center LGBTQ+ life Education, Higher Human rights Student success Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Sacramento (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) 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Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context CabralGerardo_StanleySeth_2023-04-28_transcript Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Latine experience LGBTQIA+ experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/359f5ef004ef9f5cb67d3fe184e762f6.pdf 7724afdb765683fbb93150f5ec6d7e48 PDF Text Text GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley, and today I'm interviewing Gezai Berhane. This is for the California State University San Marcos, Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. Today is March 29th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Gezai, thank you for interviewing with me today. I'll start off with a- with some questions. To start off, could you tell us a bit about your background and what led you to become a part of the CSUSM (California State University San Marcos) community? Gezai Berhane: Well, that's a good question, and thanks for this opportunity. My background is, uh, I was born and raised in Eritrea, East Africa. I came to the United States as a refugee in 1983, so I've been here for a long time. But, um, back home when I was back home in Africa, in East Africa, I did not have an opportunity to finish high school. So, my goal, my aspiration was to at least finish high school. So, once I got the opportunity to go to school here, I tried to finish high school, but I was adult, so they say, “You can't even be here in the high school.” So, they kicked me out, but they told me, I can finish high school, uh, through something called the GED (General Educational Development Test)? Something like that. And so, I did that. And then, um, I moved to San Marcos in (19)85, where California was cheaper than where I initially landed in the United States, which was South Dakota. A big difference. And so, I took advantage of the opportunity at-- enrolling at Palomar College. Uh, I did two years at Palomar College. Then I got interested more and more in school. By the time I finished Palomar College, Cal State San Marcos was coming. It was a great opportunity and I couldn't resist that. I had plans to go beyond the, two-years degree because I missed four years of high school. So at least four years of high school, equivalent to me was continuously going to a four-year college. And so San Marcos came in, so I became one of the first Cal State San Marcos students in 1990. That brought a lot of opportunity actually for me as a new university, uh, starting from scratch. For me not having any other experience coming from another country and not knowing a whole lot about college, I was involving myself at Cal State San Marcos because every time they need somebody, volunteer, student assistance, do this and that. I was just trying to be as involved as I can, just, and as a result of that, after graduating 1992, among the first 1992 graduates, I was, then I got hired to, as a student, I was involved with student organizations, with Associated Students (Incorporated, i.e. student governance) and staff. So, my involvement led to a permanent position here on campus. And that first job and things like that was in the Dean of Students Office. And then by 1993, in the beginning, we were assigned a department to start a new department called Student Activities and Alumni Services. That is the root cause of the Student Life and Leadership, the Student and Residential Life (campus departments). I've been part of that since, again, I can say even though as a student, I started in 1990, I was also an employee or student assistant with the campus. So I have seen the growth of the campus from day one as a result of that --Cross-Cultural Center, I know we'll get back to it, but that is as a result of growing departments and services to a growing population. So that's what (it) looks like a little bit on my background about who I am, as it relates to Cal State San Marcos. Stanley: And you were saying you were part of the first graduate, one of the first graduating classes of CSUSM. Could you maybe describe what the university was like in its early days? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 1 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: Well, I don't know if you, if you wanna call it the university. We were taking all our classes at the, well, we used to, still refer to it, Cal State Jerome's. It was office buildings by, near the Jerome’s (furniture store) building. But luckily, SDSU (San Diego State University) had an extended classes in those areas. So, Cal Sate San Marcos didn't start it from the beginning. So there was some kind of structure as far as classrooms and things like that at Cal State Jerome's. So, all of my two years’ classes were taken there. But we graduated from the, uh, Craven Circle. We had our first graduation right there. We used the stairs, um, as a, as chairs for the guests, but we had chairs for the graduates, I was one of those. It was (a) very tight-knit community. We knew each other, the students knew each other. The faculty, staff, administrators knew each other by name, by everything, and all kinds of activities, including playing soccer with some faculty members at the Bradley Park. I mean, all kinds of stuff. Like, you know, if you were with the Dean of students, uh, you just called them by name. you as President Stacy, you were President Stacy, he’s Bill Stacy's office. Right. Because everything was just community. We knew each other. It was a community. The faculty, on the other hand, had a task to make sure that they're building a compatible, very, viable university as a new university. So there was some challenge- they tried to challenge us, the students, but we were all re-entry, returners, transfers, no freshmen at the time. So, we met the challenge and exceeded the challenge. Within one year, we started Associated Students (student governance). Okay? We, I mean, a lot of things, because we were all mature returners and all of that. We met all the challenges and pa- and way beyond. So as a student, I just felt like I was so grateful for all of that opportunity. And so, my experience as a student here was great. Stanley: That's great. I love that all that does, the community and faculty knowing each other, stuff like that. Anyway, moving on to the Cross-Cultural Center. Could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Berhane: Okay. So this was, um, like, you know 10 years or later that the Cross-Cultural Center was implemented and, and whatnot. Uh, so the department, that the Cross-Cultural Center was under was named Student and Residential Life. We became Student and Residential Life. Just (to) give you a little bit of background, why residential life and student activities? Um, in the early, 2000s, the, the Division of Student Affairs, had a reorganization of certain departments on campus. Our department, the student, the Center for Student Involvement, which dealt with student organization, recognition leadership programs, and overseeing ASI (Associated Students Incorporated), ASI elections- was just called Center for Student Involvement. It initially was Student Activities and Alumni Services. Alumni Services split when it became, when it remained Student Activities only, we called it Center for Student Involvement, CSI. That then, like I say, as a result of the division's effort to try to reorganize the division in different departments, they brought the Residential Life and the Student Activities together. Once they brought us together, we decided to find a new name for these two departments coming together. So eventually we came up with Student and Residential Life, SRL. And so, while we were functioning on as a, an SRL, Cross-Cultural Center was added again, I mean, to that department. So we used to call it “C3.” We used to call it Multicultural Programs. I mean, C3 was the most popular name for Cross-Cultural Center. C3. And because the department, the SRL and the office that was assigned for Cross-Cultural Center were together, you just step outside, pass the bathroom, you go to the Cross-Cultural Center. It was just, again, even though we knew we were all part of one department overall, SRL. But having that we have Transcribed by Aaron Williams 2 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 to step outside and go and sit there and they started it with couches, not just chairs. It was just comfortable to go there and engage with the students who were there. Stanley: Do you, uh, remember any sort of activities or programs that the early Cross-Cultural program were, making happen? Berhane: I don't recall all the different, I know there is a, a big event that is, I don't know what it's called now that you do every year, but the, it was more for me, my memory in the fourth floor on Craven Hall (Administrative Building), on the fourth floor. Uh, when we were there initially it was more, okay, here is a program, a space for students to come and engage with each other and sit and relax and have a place to go to. Uh, but it has been a long time. So, I can't say I remember doing this and that with them. But I know there is something as a result of that, whatever started earlier, now there is an annual program and event that Cross-Cultural Center (inaudible). Stanley: So, um, in what ways would you say the Cross-Cultural Center has impacted CSUSM? Berhane: Well, I don't know if it is an impact to CSUSM, but I know Cal State San Marcos from the beginning has been saying diversity, the value of diversity has always been on the mission statement from day one. So the university to show that they are, you know, that being the first center for Multicultural Programs, you know, this is way before there was Black Student Center, Latino Center (Latin@/x Center), Native American Center (California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center), and all of that. To say, let's start with something to at least say, call it a center for cross-cultural, you know, multicultural programs. To me, it was an indication, even though it was after many, many years of hearing the word diversity as part of our mission, serving a diverse community, all of that, to start with something like that, I think it was, a great initiative, it was. And look what happened after that. Okay, so there's Multicultural Programs. What do we do? What is next? What is next? And I think it's a great start. It helped the university start with something successful. Completion of that (Cross-Cultural Center) led to different centers, as you can see where we are right now. I think that's how I look at it, because like I say, I've been hearing the word diverse community, diversity, divers(ity), you know, our mission is to serve our population, diverse population and all of that. So I think it was a good start. So I would say it was a good experience for the university to start with something like that, as opposed to specifically, you know, as one of the different centers that we have right now. Stanley: Yeah. And you say you keep hearing the word diversity, but, would you say that the CrossCultural Center actually did have an impact on creating a more inclusive campus on, at CSUSM? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 3 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: Well, like everything else, you know, if something’s to... to have impact or something’s to be popular or to be something, it has to be known to more people. Even though, with us through orientations, or everything else, as a campus, again it was more of a, campus with no housing oncampus, everybody was more, you live somewhere else, you come to classes and you will leave. So in the beginning, to be honest, there was not a whole lot of people using it (The Cross-Cultural Center). Uh, only a small group of people would use it. So if you’re there more often, you bring your friends. If I’m there more often, I’ll bring maybe more of my friends. But to the campus as a whole, uh, it was symbolic to have that, but I'm not sure to what, how much that impacted more student population at, you know, at that time. Stanley: Um-hmm. What is the, what's a favorite memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center, um, and how did it maybe affect you personally or professionally? Berhane: Um, I think I mentioned this before, when we talked (before the interview). It's more, um, you know, I work in the office. I’m with the students a lot. You know, many times I'm doing leadership programs, meeting with other students or with other staff members and things like that. So, to me, the Cross-Cultural Center was a place to go and do nothing but just relax. Because it was couches in there and then you're not there seriously to engage in a very, you know, other than just being there to have fun with people and just chat how students are doing. And so to me, it was a place to go, and whether it's through the Associate Directors that are working there, or whether it's through the students who are sitting there, it was a place where you can be free to chat with people and not really be doing work at that time. Uh, so that was how I looked at the center, in my memories, like saying, the couches are always in my head. (laughs). Stanley: Um, looks like we have enough time for these questions. Um, since the Cross-Cultural Center has a lot to do with diversity, inclusiveness, and like being more (inaudible), I noticed when I was researching you that you've had a lot of trouble with people knowing where Eritrea is, and you're telling people, I do remember reading a newspaper article from, I think it was 1990, where you say, “Where is Eritrea? People keep asking me,” and I just wanted to say, do you still feel frustration, towards those who do not know where Eritrea is on the map? And do you still find yourself explaining where it is on a regular basis? Berhane: Well, in the beginning, before I knew how much students actually had a chance to learn about history or geography, it was, “Why don't they know,” you know? “They go to school.” We, when we were in elementary school, we knew all the different countries in the world and who the president was, what the capital city is, and then in the case of African countries when they became independent and things like that. Like it’s initiated in, I mean, like I said earlier, Eritrea when I left was at war for independence. So but, it was not covered in the mainstream media as a country fighting for independence. So when I came here, at least I had expected some people to know, because we had Americans stationed in Eritrea, you know, in the fifties, sixties, seventies. So some people should know Transcribed by Aaron Williams 4 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 where Eritrea is. So, for me to say it is near Sudan, it’s by the Red Sea, it’s near Ethiopia. And so in the beginning I was seriously educating people, but later on it became like, funny to me. It is like, “Where is Eritrea?” Well, the first question always is, “What's your name?” “I'm Gezai.” “Where are you from?” “I'm from Eritrea.” “Where is that?” (Stanley laughs) And then it became like, okay, I'm not gonna spend a whole lot of time educating you because you have no clue. So I'll say it's, uh, a little farther than, uh, L.A. just by Santa Barbara. Oh, okay. I haven't heard of that. (laughs) No, you wouldn't have heard of that, but I'm sure you heard of Santa Barbara. So the easiest answer for me is, yeah, just go look at it, (laughs), and there was no Google where, you know, we got the search and things like that. So it became funny afterwards because then it's like, it's just a waste of time too. And then if you say, I'm from Africa. Oh, but I've never heard of Eritrea. Well, that's too bad you never heard of Eritrea but that's where I came from. So , I think I transitioned from taking it seriously to maybe blaming a little bit more the educational system that we are not educating people even, you know, at the bachelor's level in the history class or geography. There was a, um, a map that was given, and we have countries identified here so it says, identify where these countries are, you know, on the map. People don't even know the United States, the States where they're supposed to be located! So then I realized, you know, it's not their fault. They just didn't have enough education about different countries, let alone, I mean about their country let alone about other people's countries. So I don't blame people. I don't get frustrated anymore. I'm like, “This is funny.” Depending on how I am interacting with the person, I can either say I'm in Africa or I can just say I'm near Santa Barbara, and that will take care of the business (both laugh). Stanley: Well, love that. It's (inaudible), just in one ear, out the other. Oh, that's cool- Berhane: That's good. Yeah. Stanley: Um, going back to the Cross-Cultural Center, you said that you would spend a lot of time just having fun in there. Could you recall a time with a specific person or a memory inside the Cross-Cultural Center that you remember fondly? Berhane: I think it was more with the second associate director or the first associate directors, and not necessarily with the students, because the names of the students, again, twenty years later, I'm getting too old to remember all of that, even though I can see their faces. It's harder to recall their names right now. But I think it's more the interaction with, um, unscheduled interaction with whether it’s with the associate director, or students who are regular. We used to call it regular students, but to be specifically telling you about individual students, it would be very hard for me. And I'll be lying to you and I don't wanna do that. Stanley: Okay. Well, uh, in what ways, uh, if any, did your involvement with the Cross Culture Center help you expand or develop as a person? And how has that impacted your career or personal life? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 5 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: I mean, (laughs), as I said, as an involved person on campus, my professional and personal life as it grows, that I have gained as being part of this campus, it's enormous. It's countless, to tell you the truth, I grew up here. So Cal State San Marcos is home for me. I don't think there's a lot of other people who have started here and remained here for thirty years. Okay? I just retired in 2020-- at the end of 2021, which is thirty years later, since the university started. So the impact that grows personal and professional for me, I can't specifically try to address as a Cross-Cultural Center is, but I think my interaction with people who work at the Cross-Cultural Center, students who came to the Cross-Cultural Center, and being part of student activities. The leadership programs that this department has been planning and going, you know, whether it's going there, whether it is supporting the, uh, initial paperwork and whatnot, working with that group in general is part of my personal and professional growth. So I can't really say specifically and directly this and that. For me, it's more a, uh, the total sum of my overall experience, not just Cross-Cultural Center. Student Activities, Associated Students, the Dean of Students, the whole entire division. And in, and faculty too, as you indicated earlier. You know, if I have interactions with faculty, because we had to work with faculty members because they were supposed to be the advisor of student activity, I mean, student organization advisors, we had to work with faculty as well in doing some kind of orientation about their role and leadership programs, and how to help the student leaders and stuff. So for me, my primary function was in student activities, working with student leaders, student clubs, and organizations. So, the Cross-Cultural Center is, has been, was part of, part and parcel of Student Activities, but my main function wasn't directly that. So. But like I say, as within one department, we have orientation programs, for example. We had Greek Life, we had (to) oversee ASI (Associated Students, Inc.). All of those combined are the result of who I am, as opposed to try to, you know, narrowly say, yeah, this is how, and what the Cross-Cultural Center has left me as an impact. I don't wanna commit to that. Stanley: Let's go broader then. Berhane: Okay Stanley: Um, as a student activities director, were there any activities that you organized that you were particularly connected to or the, uh, moment on campus where you felt that you were promoting inclusiveness and diversity? Berhane: Well, I mean, a lot of the programs that we used to do from Student Activities is more... Okay, so if I notice that certain student groups that are not active, that are not really engaged, and what we used to do is go into orientations from the beginning to say, You gotta remain active on campus. This is, look at me, I never dreamed of working on campus or the university, ever whatsoever. You go to school, to college and you graduate, and you go look for a job somewhere else, but I'm here. So, students, you need to get engaged, you need to get involved. So, me encouraging all the new students that were coming in, or if they were here, and if I get to interact, I like to walk around and see if people are out there who would like to say hello, if they're not engaged, if they're not the student organizations. And Transcribed by Aaron Williams 6 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 within student organizations, if they're not taking leadership roles and things like that, I encourage people at whatever level they are. And so that's, you know, for me, I was fond of encouraging students to take leadership roles, to stay engaged, to work on campus, even at least as a student activity, and I mean as student assistants. And so for me it's more the day-to-day interactions with students, not just in generally, I mean. So, every year we know student organizations have to renew their contract every year. We have to do some leadership program trainings every year. And that's where you meet all the student leaders, and that's how you continue to engage with them and continue to advise them and continue to help them grow. And so for me, it's more, it's really hard to say yes, thirty years of experience is like to narrow it into one event or into one program. I've been part of student, I mean, ASI for example, Associated Students, (Inc.), we started with paper ballots, you know, like check-in the paper ballots. Then we moved to scantrons where you can do scantron, you (Stanley) probably don't remember. And then we had to go move up to online voting and things like that. So, you have to go through so much growth. And so, when you’re part of a lot of new engagements, new initiatives, it’s like you forget it because once you move to the next level, you just forget about that and now you're at next level. So for me, uh, like I say, it's thirty years of engaging with the students, faculty and staff, with administrators. It was a lot of the, a lot of the things that we see right now, whether it is programs through Cross-Cultural Center, or through what used to be SLL, Student Live and Leadership, now it's SLIC (both laugh), Student Leadership and Involvement (Center), something like that. SLIC, they just changed it. Um, a lot of the programs, a lot of orientation. I also worked with housing. So, housing was another area where, where you are engaged with students coming in with family, with their parents, you were engaged and things like that. And so, for me, it's just a, I was not like static in one department or in one function doing just one specific thing. I have been engaged within a lot of different things on campus. So that to me is, it makes it harder for me. It's like, as a result of me doing what specific area, this is where I am, or this is where I was, this is where I got. Is it just so much that I can say I've been a part of? And as a result, I grew up with it (laughs) and I even got retired, bro. (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. You say, that you really don't know, like what, I couldn't really go into specifics. Um, could I ask you to tell me just, just any story that you might have, of helping a student or being involved in the, on campus or anything like that? Berhane: Um, so for example, on Orientation Team. Stanley: Mm-hmm. Berhane: Orientation Team is, there's a training every year. We go camping. You go camping to Ramona or to Alpine (California) or things like that. My most memorable memories with the students is when you are going to those kinds of three, four-day trainings and camping and you are doing all kinds of crazy things in there. And so for me, my most memorable uh, fun memories are related to the orientation team going places and being trained. Things on campus, we've done so much. But when you get outta here and do other activities off campus, those were memorable. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 7 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Stanley: Um, let's see here. Um, could you tell me about your involvement with Greek Life? Berhan: (laughs) Greek Life? Hmm. So when we initially started the department Student Activities in 1993, Greek life was not recognized as Greek Life. Greek life was more, you can initiate, but we are not gonna recognize you as a Greek Life organization because first of all, you have to go and communicate with the National Greek (Life) Association (National Panhellenic Conference). The campus was not a grown-up campus. And so my engagement with Greek life was more before they became Greek Life, before they became recognized, um, Greek organizations. It was more you give, they give them (pseudonyms) and we know where they're heading, but they recognized as student organizations where it's not supposed to discriminate membership based on gender and whatnot. Because as you know, Greek organizations are based on gender, kind of like the, sororities, fraternities and things like that. So their names were not as Greek names. It was more a pseudo other names. We know where they're heading, that's where they're trying and planning. But my, so in the early days when I was part of, you know, when they were part of that student organization, they were just student organizations. That's my experience with them. Once we recognized them, we started recognizing them, then the process of working with them moved to a new Greek Life advisor. And I remained with the rest of the other student organizations. So Greek Life before they became Greek Life, yes, I know who they were. I worked with them as their advisor. But once we have started to recognize them fully, then a Greek Life advisor has to come. A Greek Life advisor was hired. That's how we kind of-- we are in the same department, but me doing student organizations, these other person, Greek life leadership programs, all of us. And then orientation, and then Cross-Cultural Center, you know, all coming from within this department. Stanley: Um, you mentioned that, uh, they had to use pseudonyms instead of real Greek names. I was wondering if you could remember any of the names. Berhane: I can't. I can't. I'm sorry. I mean, we have to go back to the, the good old days. Um, we had, you know, documents. I don't have any of the documents, but if you wanna go search what the earlier, earlier student organizations... You kind of, you can find it in the (19)93, 94, 95 years, what student organizations were. I think some of that list might be still in student activities or SLIC or ASI might have that list as well. But it was, like I say, it is very hard for me to remember all of those. But it was three or four different student organizations. Stanley: Well, thank you for the reference at least. Um, you talked about, about how you were involved with student residential life, um, in the same vein as being working earlier in CSUSM. How was residential, residential life in CSUSM earlier on? Transcribed by Aaron Williams 8 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane : So before the, uh, UVA (University Village Apartments), the university village was built, the campus had, leased apartments in what we call it, uh, the islands apartments. The Islands Apartments. Out of many of the apartments, the university leased several buildings and rooms. So we used to house students. And so even though I was working still in Student Activities, the Director of Student Activities was also overseeing the, uh, of campus housing. We called it the off-campus housing initiative. And so I was, I happened to be the other person also to help with that. So it was, again, off campus, the Islands Apartments. It's off of Wood, you know, in San Marcos, if you are familiar with San Marcos, uh, Twin Oaks (Road) going east, there is the golf course. Right across the golf course. There's Woodward. Woodward is a street. So I think they changed the name, but it used to be called the Islands Apartment. And so even though we were not, nobody was resident in there from us, the staff members, we were there to support students. It was, I was part of that. And that's pretty much so. And then once we build the UVA, the University Village, then everybody new has to take over. Uh, even though to this day, the Dean of Students where I worked overseas housing, all housing. So the directors of the on-campus housing, I think they also reported to the Dean of Students. And so, me remaining in, within the Dean of Students, under the Dean of Students kind of gave me an opportunity to really engage in work or move in, move out and things like that. But my experience with housing started with off-campus housing, and I continued to also do a list of off-campus housing. Um, so it still is in existence, I think. Stanley: Sorry, I keep, I keep asking you, but, uh, do you have any sort of (Berhane laughs) say sort of story or memorable moment in those residential, like when you were helping people move in or move out or stuff like that? Berhane: Yeah, it's just, so maybe a fun memories is where, you know, I live very close to them. And so if I take my kids with me and have my kids in there and, uh, see where, you know, this is for students, college students, I think for me it's more like my whole family was involved in things like that wherever I go, whether it's an event here. But fun memories with off campus housing, I mean, there was a lot of stuff people throw away and things like that. It’s like, you know, there's a lot. And for me, with my background from Africa. Like, there's a lot of people who could use all of those things. Things that are being thrown away. And it just-- things that I can think as like memories, okay, they're going throw the mattress to the trash, I mean, throwing it, oh wow, (laughs), somebody could have used that one. Uh, things like that. But I mean, in engaging specifically with individual students to say, I know so and so, so and so, is not there yet. It's not there anymore. (laughs) It's not there. Like the fact that I can remember the Islands Apartment because it was the initial apartments. We had students who lived there, you know, the residents of, uh, you know, a subleased apartment, but we were administering it and things like that. I think those things, I can see the apartments and the people, some people, but not a, uh, not a whole lot of memory of individuals. Stanley: Um, how, how has seeing CSUSM grow over the years impacted you, and your life around the CSUSM community? Berhane: Ahh. You know, I indicated earlier, I came to San Marcos when San Marcos was really a, uh, a mobile home community, a retirement community. When there was no stop signs or four, you know, four-way stops. It was just, you go from one place to another with no stop and five minutes was enough Transcribed by Aaron Williams 9 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 to get you from where you are to where you need to go, where you want to go. The fact that for thirty some years right now, I've seen the growth of San Marcos in general as a community, to where we are right now. It's very hard for me to believe, to tell you the truth. It's just very hard for me to believe. So, the impact is from this small community, retirement community, a neat community to the kind of growth that you see-- even when we moved here (from CSU Jerome’s campus) in 1992, we only had, what, four buildings? This building (Kellogg Library), Commons, Academical Hall, Science Hall. That was it. That was it. It was just fine. It was nice. Now to see where we are, even though in, you know, in (inaudible) there was, uh, something called, “in twenty-five years Cal State San Marcos is supposed to have grown to have up to 25,000 students.” Well, for different reasons that didn't happen. Economy and whatnot and whatnot. But for me, I like the fact that it has grown. So my kids can go to the schools where they went to. Richland (Elementary School), Woodland (Park Middle School), Mission Hills (High School). But those things, well Mission (High School) was not there. I mean, all the growth for me to be able, instead of going (to) San Diego State to be able to finish in San Marcos, I had benefited a lot to be part of it. I mean, extra lucky to be working in here instead of San Diego or moving to other kinds of states or other cities. San Marcos in general, as a community, as a university, gave me life. Life. Do you know, life? Life. It gave me life. So for me, it's beyond, I'm beyond grateful for the impact that Cal State San Marcos. The fact that Cal State San Marcos, when it came time, the place, where everything, I raised three kids in San Marcos who all three of 'em went to like, oh, I told you Richland, Woodland, and then went to college. None of them came here (CSUSM) ‘cause Daddy works here (laughs). So they had to go to different states. But, um, but they knew where, what my expectations of them, they knew they were part of, I was part of this. And they knew they were not just going to finish high school and not go to college. So they all did at least their four, the four-year degree. So for me, it is life. My experience, the people that I come to know here at the university, the faculty, staff, students, it gave me life. I'm telling you, I don't know where I would've been if it wasn’t for Cal State San Marcos. And the whole general San Marcos, the whole area. So I'm very, very grateful. Stanley: That's, that's incredible. Um, yeah, it's just, it's almost like a, it's become like a campus town at this point now. Berhane: Oh my God. Oh my gosh. I mean, when I was a student, there was no parking fees or anything (laughs). Now I have (to) pay, like an hour. You pay my job, just leave me (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. There's a train that runs along now. Berhane: That's a different story (laughs). That's a different story, man. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 10 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Stanley: Getting back, uh, as we're winding down, um, I know that you had, you were involved with the Black Student Union and Black Student Center. How would would you say that pro, those programs and that, what's the word, uh, correlates or stacks up against the Cross-Cultural Center? I'd say, so. Berhane: Um, I think what, you know, during time, with time you have to identify all the different things that you need, who needs what. And so, I don't know, I don't wanna compare or compete or anything as, you know, not just a Black Student Center, not just a Latino Center, not just a Women's Center or a Native American Center. It's more they all have their own individual roles to play in the, in, in, you know, in this community. So, Black Student Center was a necessary department, was a necessary service, a necessary center to have on campus. If we are going to have specific groups feeling welcomed and that they have a space on campus. With Multicultural Programs its good, when multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-gender, or whatever you call it, in name. It-- but they're able to come and use that as a center for that. But I think people feel comfortable where they feel they belong to. Just like the student organizations. When I was a student, when I see a sociology club, accounting club, Latino club, well, I wanted to have the Black Student Club. So I was part of a Black student club. Uh, we were calling it African American or African Student Organization, African, all kinds of stuff, trying to say we have something that belongs to us. So for me, it's not like in comparison to other centers, it was necessary to have a center for the Black students to feel comfortable enough to go there. And so for us, again, as advocates for services to different interests of different student groups, to have that implemented and to see that while I was a student, I while I was an employee here, was a great thing. I was always involved like I say from day one, whether since starting a student organization, once I became a staff (employee designation), we have the Black Faculty and Staff Association. I've been part of that (inaudible) since day one. When we graduated in 1992, I became one of the board members with the Alumni Association, starting Alumni Association I can say I've been part of a lot of starting things because I think the need, the need is there and if I'm able to help on engage(ment), why not? So I as, as someone who was active as a student, once I graduated, I was also pulled to help start the Alumni Association. And so I think, you know, in trying to answer your question, it's not really in competition or one over the other or against the other. It's more providing services to the different populations, different groups with different interests that we have on campus. Stanley: Uh, yeah, perhaps I worded that a little wrong. You touched on this before, but what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center play as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces like you named before? Berhane: I think it requires an understanding of what its mission is, an understanding. So if I'm coming as a student, new student coming to campus, I'm a Black student. I'm not going to ask for multicultural programs where, you know, “Where is a multicultural program?” I'm gonna ask, where is a Black Student Center? If I'm going to join a student organization, I'm either going to ask for something related to my major or something related to my identity. And so, multicultural, Cross-Cultural Center, the definition of it needs to be clear to people from day one at orientation. Okay? And so, yes, it does have a mission. Yes, it does have a purpose to be here on campus to serve, but is it serving the group of people who don't have a center already? Or is it bringing all the centers together? And so, uh, reexamination of the whole purpose of Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center might be necessary at some point to say, “Who am I serving?” Okay? Because you have Latino Center here, Women's Center, gender, you know, gender and Black Student Center, there may be a need to really qualify, “Why should I go there?” Transcribed by Aaron Williams 11 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Even though I know I'm familiar with it. But if I am a newcomer, what am I gonna look for? It does serve a population that doesn't, that doesn't fit any of the other ones (other centers). But what extent do they understand it? To what extent are they familiar and aware of this service and this center? Stanley: I guess the same thing I ask as a longtime CSUSM (staff and administrative) member and student of CSUSM, what advice would you give the Cross-Cultural Center to be more inclusive and, and get those people who are outside of the lines of the Latin(@/x) Center, or the Black (Student) Center? Berhane: I don't know if, uh, Floyd (Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time of the interview’s recording) will need my advice. I'm sure he, he is very familiar with what he's doing and what, you know, what he sees all the different centers around him, and he works very closely with the student centers and stuff. So they don't really need my advice. But I think, you know, always doesn't hurt to go back and look at who is, who is being engaged here? Who is our population? Who is the most frequently arrival here in relation to-- So if I were to look back at who the most popular, what population used to be there... more often it is more of the Asian population. Okay. So the Asian population probably don't have any other location, but the Multicultural Programs (Cross-Cultural Center). Because we, I'm being honest, this Black Student center, Latino Center, Indian Center, there's an argument there should be a White center too. But (laughs), that's a different story. But I think the thing is, you know, a lot of, we’ve got to go back and take a look at the purpose of this center. Are we serving the population that we were formed to serve and continually revise. Take, you know, take notes of all the people who have come to you on a daily basis and see if we are missing anybody. If we are missing anybody, the best place to meet them is at orientation. When they all come in on campus with their families and you know, tell them where all the different services are, make that as a, you know, make it as an effort. I used to do recruitment too even when I was a student assistant. Students who heard me talk about “Cal State Marcos will offer you this, this, and that.” Once they come to Cal State San Marcos, if they experience the things that I told them; Cal State San Marcos will serve you, they (the students) would remember that and say, “I'm so glad that you said that. I am glad I heard you say that.” And I can see, and really, I use that and it's helped, it has helped me. I really appreciate that. So, we need to be able to impact students from the day one, what kind of services we are providing for them and why they should come to our department, why they should come to our service, why they should come to my class, why they should do those things at the orientation, at wherever they are at the beginning. And so, identify your population, identifying all the different services you can provide, as much as you can provide. You don't expect someone, uh, search you and come to your office. They're not, they're not gonna come, unless they hear you say something, something. Stanley: So, yes. So to, to uh, summarize, make people aware of the program. Make sure that you know who you're serving and that, why they should come there. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 12 2023-10-30 �GEZAI BERHANE TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-29 Berhane: Yes. That's how I feel. That's how I feel. I mean, people need to know. A lot of people if they, if you don't know it, you don't know it, you're not going to go and search for it. You haven't heard anybody talking about it. So even though it may be available in your fingertips, this is different. Maybe I'm old fashioned, maybe I'm more like person to person, but for me, the only way people can come to (the services) is (if) they're aware of it. So make it aware and be clear about what services you're providing and where you are located, what your hours are, your phone number and blah blah. And have 'em (students) come. And it, again, it doesn't have to be limited to orientation or one area or this and that. Could be classrooms. It could be announcements, it could be a lot of things. But make sure that, you know, you are known on campus for providing services that all students need or specific students need. Stanley: All right. Well I really appreciate you coming. I'm gonna end the recording now. Berhane: Well, thank you. Uh, let me say thank you, uh, Seth, for this opportunity. And I say I'm grateful that you invited me and that I'm a part of this. I hope I have given you what I know a little bit, but I really appreciate this opportunity and thank you very much as well. Stanley: I enjoyed the conversation as well. Ending the recording now. Transcribed by Aaron Williams 13 2023-10-30 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Berhane, Gezai. Interview transcript. March 29th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Gezai Berhane is a California State University San Marcos alumnus, where he was part of the first graduating class. Since his graduation, Berhane was a CSUSM employee until his retirement in 2021. Most recently he worked as Associate Director of Operations. In this interview, Berhane discusses his immigration journey, involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, campus Greek life, and other student centers at California State University San Marcos. This interview was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from California State University San Marcos's Instructionally Related Activities Fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gezai Berhane Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-29 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Greek life California State University San Marcos. Student Activities Refugees -- Eritrea Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Eritrea San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Gezai Berhane Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29 Black experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Immigrant experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Seth Stanley Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gezai Berhane OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Berhane, Gezai. Interview March 29th, 2023. SC027-37 00:52:04 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Cross-Cultural Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm California State University San Marcos ; California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center ; California State University San Marcos. Student Activities ; California State University San Marcos. Greek life ; Refugees -- Eritrea ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Black experience in America Gezai Berhane Seth Stanley Video 1:|13(11)|24(17)|34(6)|45(6)|61(14)|72(13)|83(14)|95(4)|105(14)|118(16)|132(10)|144(8)|159(16)|171(14)|183(8)|197(6)|208(3)|220(15)|231(7)|249(14)|263(4)|273(7)|285(3)|301(7)|313(5)|323(10)|335(7)|346(16)|360(15)|371(17)|381(8)|395(19)|410(7)|419(6)|429(8)|442(17)|453(12)|464(16)|475(3)|486(12)|500(6)|518(4)|528(5)|539(3)|552(10)|564(8)|573(16)|588(13)|599(6)|610(17)|624(7)|640(8)|643(12) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a06b713a6fd9a626ce2c5e87acc28e76.mp4 Other video 0 Introduction and Background Seth Stanley introduces Gezai Berhane, who discusses his background as an Eritrean refugee seeking education in the USA. Additionally, Berhane discusses how he came to work for California State University San Marcos. education ; refugee 0 266 CSUSM Early Days Berhane remembers his experience at CSUSM in the early 1980s as the first graduating class. This experience contributed to his later work at the university. 0 427 Cross-Cultural Center Berhane describes the beginning stages of the Cross-Cultural Center, then known as Multicultural Programs, and it's impacts upon the CSUSM campus. Before diversity could be implemented, Berhane considered the center a symbol for future progress. This includes the foundation of future centers such as the Black Student Center or the Women and Gender Equity Center. 0 829 Memories Berhane briefly speaks about his favorite part of the Cross-Cultural Center in its early days, before speaking more in detail about his experience as an Eritrean-American. Dealing with ignorance and prejudices, Berhane illuminates the importance of diversity and inclusivity education. From his perspective, Berhane witnessed the lackluster American education and media systems that caused such ignorance. Berhane stresses that ignorance should not be blamed upon individuals, but a system-at-large. 0 1150 Impacts of the Cross-Cultural Center and CSUSM Memories of unexpected encounters in the CCC were among Berhane's memorable highlights. Beyond this, Berhane shares that he cannot necessarily separate the impacts of the CCC from CSUSM. Among the first graduating class, he had a unique experience in that he experienced CSUSM over three decades. The Cross-Cultural Center was one part of his work at the university, and considers his total experience at CSUSM impactful. 0 1397 Student Involvement and Orientation As Student Activities Director, student orientation was where Berhane stressed the importance of involvement. Berhane challenged students to stay engaged with their communities. With the Orientation Team, Berhane remembers the bonding experience of a weekend camping trip. 0 1743 Greek Life The course of Greek Life at CSUSM is detailed by Berhane. Beginning in 1993, when Greek Life was not fully recognized, when Berhane was more directly involved. 0 1957 Student Residential Life Before the main CSUSM dormitories were built, Berhane defines his role in facilitating student residential life at leased apartments. Berhane also discusses memories of involving his family in his work, in addition to perceiving careless waste. Berhane offers his perspective as an Eritrean refugee on American consumerism. 0 2245 Thirty Years at CSUSM Berhane and his family lived in San Marcos and bore witness to the development of the city and university. Berhane considers this experience to have given him life. He is beyond grateful for this experience, and instilled this love for knowledge in his children. 0 2499 Student Center Coexistence Berhane refuses to compare or contrast student centers against one another. He considers every center has its individual purpose which changes over time. Beginning in 1992, Berhane was passionate about providing space for those in need. As a Black student, he recalls the desire for a Black student club. This experience informed his later work to provide services to an ever-evolving student body. The importance of centers / service providers reaching students is also discussed. 0 2834 Advice for Future Inclusivity Regarding the future, Berhane stresses vigilant attention to underserviced communities, including students of Asian descent, who do not have an identity-specific space. Berhane stresses the importance of service providers / centers reaching and engaging with students. 0 Gezai Berhane is a California State University San Marcos alumnus, where he was part of the first graduating class. Since his graduation, Berhane was a CSUSM employee until his retirement in 2021. Most recently he worked as Associate Director of Operations. In this interview, Berhane discusses his immigration journey, involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, campus Greek life, and other student centers at California State University San Marcos. Seth Stanley: Hello, this is Seth Stanley, and today I'm interviewing Gezai Berhane. This is for the California State University San Marcos, Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. Today is March 29th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Gezai, thank you for interviewing with me today. I'll start off with a- with some questions. To start off, could you tell us a bit about your background and what led you to become a part of the CSUSM (California State University San Marcos) community? Gezai Berhane: Well, that's a good question, and thanks for this opportunity. My background is, uh, I was born and raised in Eritrea, East Africa. I came to the United States as a refugee in 1983, so I've been here for a long time. But, um, back home when I was back home in Africa, in East Africa, I did not have an opportunity to finish high school. So, my goal, my aspiration was to at least finish high school. So, once I got the opportunity to go to school here, I tried to finish high school, but I was adult, so they say, “You can't even be here in the high school.” So, they kicked me out, but they told me, I can finish high school, uh, through something called the GED (General Educational Development test)? Something like that. And so, I did that. And then, um, I moved to San Marcos in (19)85, where California was cheaper than where I initially landed in the United States, which was South Dakota. A big difference. And so, I took advantage of the opportunity at-- enrolling at Palomar College. Uh, I did two years at Palomar College. Then I got interested more and more in school. By the time I finished Palomar College, Cal State San Marcos was coming. It was a great opportunity and I couldn't resist that. I had plans to go beyond the two-years degree because I missed four years of high school. So at least four years of high school, equivalent to me was continuously going to a four-year college. And so San Marcos came in, so I became one of the first Cal State San Marcos students in 1990. That brought a lot of opportunity actually for me as a new university, uh, starting from scratch. For me not having any other experience coming from another country and not knowing a whole lot about college, I was involving myself at Cal State San Marcos because every time they need somebody, volunteer, student assistance, do this and that. I was just trying to be as involved as I can, just, and as a result of that, after graduating 1992, among the first 1992 graduates, I was, then I got hired to, as a student, I was involved with student organizations, with Associated Students (Incorporated, i.e. student governance) and staff. So, my involvement led to a permanent position here on campus. And that first job and things like that was in the Dean of Students Office. And then by 1993, in the beginning, we were assigned a department to start a new department called Student Activities and Alumni Services. That is the root cause of the Student Life and Leadership, the Student and Residential Life (campus departments). I've been part of that since, again, I can say even though as a student, I started in 1990, I was also an employee or student assistant with the campus. So I have seen the growth of the campus from day one as a result of that-- Cross-Cultural Center, I know we'll get back to it, but that is as a result of growing departments and services to a growing population. So that's what (it) looks like a little bit on my background about who I am, as it relates to Cal State San Marcos. Stanley: And you were saying you were part of the first graduate, one of the first graduating classes of CSUSM. Could you maybe describe what the university was like in its early days? Berhane: Well, I don't know if you, if you wanna call it the university. We were taking all our classes at the, well, we used to, still refer to it, Cal State Jerome's. It was office buildings by, near the Jerome’s (furniture store) building. But luckily, SDSU (San Diego State University) had an extended classes in those areas. So, Cal Sate San Marcos didn't start it from the beginning. So there was some kind of structure as far as classrooms and things like that at Cal State Jerome's. So, all of my two years’ classes were taken there. But we graduated from the, uh, Craven Circle. We had our first graduation right there. We used the stairs, um, as a, as chairs for the guests, but we had chairs for the graduates, I was one of those. It was (a) very tight-knit community. We knew each other, the students knew each other. The faculty, staff, administrators knew each other by name, by everything, and all kinds of activities, including playing soccer with some faculty members at the Bradley Park. I mean, all kinds of stuff. Like, you know, if you were with the Dean of students, uh, you just called them by name. you as President Stacy, you were President Stacy, he’s Bill Stacy's office. Right. Because everything was just community. We knew each other. It was a community. The faculty, on the other hand, had a task to make sure that they're building a compatible, very viable university as a new university. So there was some challenge- they tried to challenge us, the students, but we were all re-entry, returners, transfers, no freshmen at the time. So, we met the challenge and exceeded the challenge. Within one year, we started Associated Students (student governance). Okay? We, I mean, a lot of things, because we were all mature returners and all of that. We met all the challenges and pa- and way beyond. So as a student, I just felt like I was so grateful for all of that opportunity. And so, my experience as a student here was great. Stanley: That's great. I love that all that does, the community and faculty knowing each other, stuff like that. Anyway, moving on to the Cross-Cultural Center, could you describe what the Cross-Cultural Center was like when you initially began engaging with it? Berhane: Okay. So this was, um, like, you know 10 years or later that the Cross-Cultural Center was implemented and, and whatnot. Uh, so the department, that the Cross-Cultural Center was under was named Student and Residential Life. We became Student and Residential Life. Just (to) give you a little bit of background, why residential life and student activities? Um, in the early, 2000s, the, the Division of Student Affairs, had a reorganization of certain departments on campus. Our department, the student, the Center for Student Involvement, which dealt with student organization, recognition leadership programs, and overseeing ASI (Associated Students Incorporated), ASI elections- was just called Center for Student Involvement. It initially was Student Activities and Alumni Services. Alumni Services split when it became, when it remained Student Activities only, we called it Center for Student Involvement, CSI. That then, like I say, as a result of the division's effort to try to reorganize the division in different departments, they brought the Residential Life and the Student Activities together. Once they brought us together, we decided to find a new name for these two departments coming together. So eventually we came up with Student and Residential Life, SRL. And so, while we were functioning on as a, an SRL, Cross-Cultural Center was added again, I mean, to that department. So we used to call it “C3.” We used to call it Multicultural Programs. I mean, C3 was the most popular name for Cross-Cultural Center. C3. And because the department, the SRL and the office that was assigned for Cross-Cultural Center were together, you just step outside, pass the bathroom, you go to the Cross-Cultural Center. It was just, again, even though we knew we were all part of one department overall, SRL. But having that we have to step outside and go and sit there and they started it with couches, not just chairs. It was just comfortable to go there and engage with the students who were there. Stanley: Do you, uh, remember any sort of activities or programs that the early Cross-Cultural program were, making happen? Berhane: I don't recall all the different, I know there is a, a big event that is, I don't know what it's called now that you do every year, but the, it was more for me, my memory in the fourth floor on Craven Hall (Administrative Building), on the fourth floor. Uh, when we were there initially it was more, okay, here is a program, a space for students to come and engage with each other and sit and relax and have a place to go to. Uh, but it has been a long time. So, I can't say I remember doing this and that with them. But I know there is something as a result of that, whatever started earlier, now there is an annual program and event that Cross-Cultural Center (inaudible). Stanley: So, um, in what ways would you say the Cross-Cultural Center has impacted CSUSM? Berhane: Well, I don't know if it is an impact to CSUSM, but I know Cal State San Marcos from the beginning has been saying diversity, the value of diversity has always been on the mission statement from day one. So the university to show that they are, you know, that being the first center for Multicultural Programs, you know, this is way before there was Black Student Center, Latino Center (Latin /x Center), Native American Center (California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center), and all of that. To say, let's start with something to at least say, call it a center for cross-cultural, you know, multicultural programs. To me, it was an indication, even though it was after many, many years of hearing the word diversity as part of our mission, serving a diverse community, all of that, to start with something like that, I think it was, a great initiative, it was. And look what happened after that. Okay, so there's Multicultural Programs. What do we do? What is next? What is next? And I think it's a great start. It helped the university start with something successful. Completion of that (Cross-Cultural Center) led to different centers, as you can see where we are right now. I think that's how I look at it, because like I say, I've been hearing the word diverse community, diversity, divers(ity), you know, our mission is to serve our population, diverse population and all of that. So I think it was a good start. So I would say it was a good experience for the university to start with something like that, as opposed to specifically, you know, as one of the different centers that we have right now. Stanley: Yeah. And you say you keep hearing the word diversity, but, would you say that the Cross-Cultural Center actually did have an impact on creating a more inclusive campus on, at CSUSM? Berhane: Well, like everything else, you know, if something’s to... to have impact or something’s to be popular or to be something, it has to be known to more people. Even though, with us through orientations, or everything else, as a campus, again it was more of a, campus with no housing on-campus, everybody was more, you live somewhere else, you come to classes and you will leave. So in the beginning, to be honest, there was not a whole lot of people using it (The Cross-Cultural Center). Uh, only a small group of people would use it. So if you’re there more often, you bring your friends. If I’m there more often, I’ll bring maybe more of my friends. But to the campus as a whole, uh, it was symbolic to have that, but I'm not sure to what, how much that impacted more student population at, you know, at that time. Stanley: Um-hmm. What is the, what's a favorite memory you have from the Cross-Cultural Center, um, and how did it maybe affect you personally or professionally? Berhane: Um, I think I mentioned this before, when we talked (before the interview). It's more, um, you know, I work in the office. I’m with the students a lot. You know, many times I'm doing leadership programs, meeting with other students or with other staff members and things like that. So, to me, the Cross-Cultural Center was a place to go and do nothing but just relax. Because it was couches in there and then you're not there seriously to engage in a very, you know, other than just being there to have fun with people and just chat how students are doing. And so to me, it was a place to go, and whether it's through the Associate Directors that are working there, or whether it's through the students who are sitting there, it was a place where you can be free to chat with people and not really be doing work at that time. Uh, so that was how I looked at the center, in my memories, like saying, the couches are always in my head (laughs). Stanley: Um, looks like we have enough time for these questions. Um, since the Cross-Cultural Center has a lot to do with diversity, inclusiveness, and like being more (inaudible), I noticed when I was researching you that you've had a lot of trouble with people knowing where Eritrea is, and you're telling people, I do remember reading a newspaper article from, I think it was 1990, where you say, “Where is Eritrea? People keep asking me,” and I just wanted to say, do you still feel frustration, towards those who do not know where Eritrea is on the map? And do you still find yourself explaining where it is on a regular basis? Berhane: Well, in the beginning, before I knew how much students actually had a chance to learn about history or geography, it was, “Why don't they know,” you know? “They go to school.” We, when we were in elementary school, we knew all the different countries in the world and who the president was, what the capital city is, and then in the case of African countries when they became independent and things like that. Like it’s initiated in, I mean, like I said earlier, Eritrea when I left was at war for independence. So but, it was not covered in the mainstream media as a country fighting for independence. So when I came here, at least I had expected some people to know, because we had Americans stationed in Eritrea, you know, in the fifties, sixties, seventies. So some people should know where Eritrea is. So, for me to say it is near Sudan, it’s by the Red Sea, it’s near Ethiopia. And so in the beginning I was seriously educating people, but later on it became like, funny to me. It is like, “Where is Eritrea?” Well, the first question always is, “What's your name?” “I'm Gezai.” “Where are you from?” “I'm from Eritrea.” “Where is that?” (Stanley laughs) And then it became like, okay, I'm not gonna spend a whole lot of time educating you because you have no clue. So I'll say it's, uh, a little farther than, uh, L.A. just by Santa Barbara. Oh, okay. I haven't heard of that. (laughs) No, you wouldn't have heard of that, but I'm sure you heard of Santa Barbara. So the easiest answer for me is, yeah, just go look at it, (laughs), and there was no Google where, you know, we got the search and things like that. So it became funny afterwards because then it's like, it's just a waste of time too. And then if you say, I'm from Africa. Oh, but I've never heard of Eritrea. Well, that's too bad you never heard of Eritrea but that's where I came from. So, I think I transitioned from taking it seriously to maybe blaming a little bit more the educational system that we are not educating people even, you know, at the bachelor's level in the history class or geography. There was a, um, a map that was given, and we have countries identified here so it says, identify where these countries are, you know, on the map. People don't even know the United States, the States where they're supposed to be located! So then I realized, you know, it's not their fault. They just didn't have enough education about different countries, let alone, I mean about their country let alone about other people's countries. So I don't blame people. I don't get frustrated anymore. I'm like, “This is funny.” Depending on how I am interacting with the person, I can either say I'm in Africa or I can just say I'm near Santa Barbara, and that will take care of the business (both laugh). Stanley: Well, love that. It's (inaudible), just in one ear, out the other. Oh, that's cool- Berhane: That's good. Yeah. Stanley: Um, going back to the Cross-Cultural Center, you said that you would spend a lot of time just having fun in there. Could you recall a time with a specific person or a memory inside the Cross-Cultural Center that you remember fondly? Berhane: I think it was more with the second associate director or the first associate directors, and not necessarily with the students, because the names of the students, again, twenty years later, I'm getting too old to remember all of that, even though I can see their faces. It's harder to recall their names right now. But I think it's more the interaction with, um, unscheduled interaction with whether it’s with the associate director, or students who are regular. We used to call it regular students, but to be specifically telling you about individual students, it would be very hard for me. And I'll be lying to you and I don't wanna do that. Stanley: Okay. Well, uh, in what ways, uh, if any, did your involvement with the Cross Culture Center help you expand or develop as a person? And how has that impacted your career or personal life? Berhane: I mean, (laughs), as I said, as an involved person on campus, my professional and personal life as it grows, that I have gained as being part of this campus, it's enormous. It's countless, to tell you the truth, I grew up here. So Cal State San Marcos is home for me. I don't think there's a lot of other people who have started here and remained here for thirty years. Okay? I just retired in 2020-- at the end of 2021, which is thirty years later, since the university started. So the impact that grows personal and professional for me, I can't specifically try to address as a Cross-Cultural Center is, but I think my interaction with people who work at the Cross-Cultural Center, students who came to the Cross-Cultural Center, and being part of student activities. The leadership programs that this department has been planning and going, you know, whether it's going there, whether it is supporting the, uh, initial paperwork and whatnot, working with that group in general is part of my personal and professional growth. So I can't really say specifically and directly this and that. For me, it's more a, uh, the total sum of my overall experience, not just Cross-Cultural Center. Student Activities, Associated Students, the Dean of Students, the whole entire division. And in, and faculty too, as you indicated earlier. You know, if I have interactions with faculty, because we had to work with faculty members because they were supposed to be the advisor of student activity, I mean, student organization advisors, we had to work with faculty as well in doing some kind of orientation about their role and leadership programs, and how to help the student leaders and stuff. So for me, my primary function was in student activities, working with student leaders, student clubs, and organizations. So, the Cross-Cultural Center is, has been, was part of, part and parcel of Student Activities, but my main function wasn't directly that. So. But like I say, as within one department, we have orientation programs, for example. We had Greek Life, we had (to) oversee ASI (Associated Students, Inc.). All of those combined are the result of who I am, as opposed to try to, you know, narrowly say, yeah, this is how, and what the Cross-Cultural Center has left me as an impact. I don't wanna commit to that. Stanley: Let's go broader then. Berhane: Okay Stanley: Um, as a student activities director, were there any activities that you organized that you were particularly connected to or the, uh, moment on campus where you felt that you were promoting inclusiveness and diversity? Berhane: Well, I mean, a lot of the programs that we used to do from Student Activities is more... Okay, so if I notice that certain student groups that are not active, that are not really engaged, and what we used to do is go into orientations from the beginning to say, “You gotta remain active on campus.” This is, look at me, I never dreamed of working on campus or the university, ever whatsoever. You go to school, to college and you graduate, and you go look for a job somewhere else, but I'm here. So, students, you need to get engaged, you need to get involved. So, me encouraging all the new students that were coming in, or if they were here, and if I get to interact, I like to walk around and see if people are out there who would like to say hello, if they're not engaged, if they're not the student organizations. And within student organizations, if they're not taking leadership roles and things like that, I encourage people at whatever level they are. And so that's, you know, for me, I was fond of encouraging students to take leadership roles, to stay engaged, to work on campus, even at least as a student activity, and I mean as student assistants. And so for me it's more the day-to-day interactions with students, not just in generally, I mean. So, every year we know student organizations have to renew their contract every year. We have to do some leadership program trainings every year. And that's where you meet all the student leaders, and that's how you continue to engage with them and continue to advise them and continue to help them grow. And so for me, it's more, it's really hard to say yes, thirty years of experience is like to narrow it into one event or into one program. I've been part of student, I mean, ASI for example, Associated Students, (Inc.), we started with paper ballots, you know, like check-in the paper ballots. Then we moved to scantrons where you can do scantron, you (Stanley) probably don't remember. And then we had to go move up to online voting and things like that. So, you have to go through so much growth. And so, when you’re part of a lot of new engagements, new initiatives, it’s like you forget it because once you move to the next level, you just forget about that and now you're at next level. So for me, uh, like I say, it's thirty years of engaging with the students, faculty and staff, with administrators. It was a lot of the, a lot of the things that we see right now, whether it is programs through Cross-Cultural Center, or through what used to be SLL, Student Live and Leadership, now it's SLIC (both laugh), Student Leadership and Involvement (Center), something like that. SLIC, they just changed it. Um, a lot of the programs, a lot of orientation. I also worked with housing. So, housing was another area where, where you are engaged with students coming in with family, with their parents, you were engaged and things like that. And so, for me, it's just a, I was not like static in one department or in one function doing just one specific thing. I have been engaged within a lot of different things on campus. So that to me is, it makes it harder for me. It's like, as a result of me doing what specific area, this is where I am, or this is where I was, this is where I got. Is it just so much that I can say I've been a part of? And as a result, I grew up with it (laughs) and I even got retired, bro. (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. You say, that you really don't know, like what, I couldn't really go into specifics. Um, could I ask you to tell me just, just any story that you might have, of helping a student or being involved in the, on campus or anything like that? Berhane: Um, so for example, on Orientation Team. Stanley: Mm-hmm. Berhane: Orientation Team is, there's a training every year. We go camping. You go camping to Ramona or to Alpine (California) or things like that. My most memorable memories with the students is when you are going to those kinds of three, four-day trainings and camping and you are doing all kinds of crazy things in there. And so for me, my most memorable uh, fun memories are related to the orientation team going places and being trained. Things on campus, we've done so much. But when you get outta here and do other activities off campus, those were memorable. Stanley: Um, let's see here. Um, could you tell me about your involvement with Greek Life? Berhan: (laughs) Greek Life? Hmm. So when we initially started the department Student Activities in 1993, Greek life was not recognized as Greek Life. Greek life was more, you can initiate, but we are not gonna recognize you as a Greek Life organization because first of all, you have to go and communicate with the National Greek (Life) Association (National Panhellenic Conference). The campus was not a grown-up campus. And so my engagement with Greek life was more before they became Greek Life, before they became recognized, um, Greek organizations. It was more you give, they give them (pseudonyms) and we know where they're heading, but they recognized as student organizations where it's not supposed to discriminate membership based on gender and whatnot. Because as you know, Greek organizations are based on gender, kind of like the sororities, fraternities and things like that. So their names were not as Greek names. It was more a pseudo-other names. We know where they're heading, that's where they're trying and planning. But my, so in the early days when I was part of, you know, when they were part of that student organization, they were just student organizations. That's my experience with them. Once we recognized them, we started recognizing them, then the process of working with them moved to a new Greek Life advisor. And I remained with the rest of the other student organizations. So Greek Life before they became Greek Life, yes, I know who they were. I worked with them as their advisor. But once we have started to recognize them fully, then a Greek Life advisor has to come. A Greek Life advisor was hired. That's how we kind of-- we are in the same department, but me doing student organizations, these other person, Greek life leadership programs, all of us. And then orientation, and then Cross-Cultural Center, you know, all coming from within this department. Stanley: Um, you mentioned that, uh, they had to use pseudonyms instead of real Greek names. I was wondering if you could remember any of the names. Berhane: I can't. I can't. I'm sorry. I mean, we have to go back to the, the good old days. Um, we had, you know, documents. I don't have any of the documents, but if you wanna go search what the earlier, earlier student organizations... You kind of, you can find it in the (19)93, 94, 95 years, what student organizations were. I think some of that list might be still in student activities or SLIC or ASI might have that list as well. But it was, like I say, it is very hard for me to remember all of those. But it was three or four different student organizations. Stanley: Well, thank you for the reference at least. Um, you talked about, about how you were involved with student residential life, um, in the same vein as being working earlier in CSUSM. How was residential, residential life in CSUSM earlier on? Berhane : So before the, uh, UVA (University Village Apartments), the university village was built, the campus had leased apartments in what we call it, uh, the islands apartments. The Islands Apartments. Out of many of the apartments, the university leased several buildings and rooms. So we used to house students. And so even though I was working still in Student Activities, the Director of Student Activities was also overseeing the, uh, of campus housing. We called it the off-campus housing initiative. And so I was, I happened to be the other person also to help with that. So it was, again, off campus, the Islands Apartments. It's off of Wood, you know, in San Marcos, if you are familiar with San Marcos, uh, Twin Oaks (Road) going east, there is the golf course. Right across the golf course. There's Woodward. Woodward is a street. So I think they changed the name, but it used to be called the Islands Apartment. And so even though we were not, nobody was resident in there from us, the staff members, we were there to support students. It was, I was part of that. And that's pretty much so. And then once we build the UVA, the University Village, then everybody new has to take over. Uh, even though to this day, the Dean of Students where I worked overseas housing, all housing. So the directors of the on-campus housing, I think they also reported to the Dean of Students. And so, me remaining in, within the Dean of Students, under the Dean of Students kind of gave me an opportunity to really engage in work or move in, move out and things like that. But my experience with housing started with off-campus housing, and I continued to also do a list of off-campus housing. Um, so it still is in existence, I think. Stanley: Sorry, I keep, I keep asking you, but, uh, do you have any sort of (Berhane laughs) say sort of story or memorable moment in those residential, like when you were helping people move in or move out or stuff like that? Berhane: Yeah, it's just, so maybe a fun memories is where, you know, I live very close to them. And so if I take my kids with me and have my kids in there and, uh, see where, you know, this is for students, college students, I think for me it's more like my whole family was involved in things like that wherever I go, whether it's an event here. But fun memories with off campus housing, I mean, there was a lot of stuff people throw away and things like that. It’s like, you know, there's a lot. And for me, with my background from Africa. Like, there's a lot of people who could use all of those things. Things that are being thrown away. And it just-- things that I can think as like memories, okay, they're going throw the mattress to the trash, I mean, throwing it, oh wow, (laughs), somebody could have used that one. Uh, things like that. But I mean, in engaging specifically with individual students to say, I know so and so, so and so, is not there yet. It's not there anymore. (laughs) It's not there. Like the fact that I can remember the Islands Apartment because it was the initial apartments. We had students who lived there, you know, the residents of, uh, you know, a subleased apartment, but we were administering it and things like that. I think those things, I can see the apartments and the people, some people, but not a, uh, not a whole lot of memory of individuals. Stanley: Um, how, how has seeing CSUSM grow over the years impacted you, and your life around the CSUSM community? Berhane: Ahh. You know, I indicated earlier, I came to San Marcos when San Marcos was really a, uh, a mobile home community, a retirement community. When there was no stop signs or four, you know, four-way stops. It was just, you go from one place to another with no stop and five minutes was enough to get you from where you are to where you need to go, where you want to go. The fact that for thirty some years right now, I've seen the growth of San Marcos in general as a community, to where we are right now. It's very hard for me to believe, to tell you the truth. It's just very hard for me to believe. So, the impact is from this small community, retirement community, a neat community to the kind of growth that you see-- even when we moved here (from CSU Jerome’s campus) in 1992, we only had, what, four buildings? This building (Kellogg Library), Commons, Academical Hall, Science Hall. That was it. That was it. It was just fine. It was nice. Now to see where we are, even though in, you know, in (inaudible) there was, uh, something called, “in twenty-five years Cal State San Marcos is supposed to have grown to have up to 25,000 students.” Well, for different reasons that didn't happen. Economy and whatnot and whatnot. But for me, I like the fact that it has grown. So my kids can go to the schools where they went to. Richland (Elementary School), Woodland (Park Middle School), Mission Hills (High School). But those things, well Mission (High School) was not there. I mean, all the growth for me to be able, instead of going (to) San Diego State to be able to finish in San Marcos, I had benefited a lot to be part of it. I mean, extra lucky to be working in here instead of San Diego or moving to other kinds of states or other cities. San Marcos in general, as a community, as a university, gave me life. Life. Do you know, life? Life. It gave me life. So for me, it's beyond, I'm beyond grateful for the impact that Cal State San Marcos. The fact that Cal State San Marcos, when it came time, the place, were everything, I raised three kids in San Marcos who all three of 'em went to like, oh, I told you Richland, Woodland, and then went to college. None of them came here (CSUSM) ‘cause Daddy works here (laughs). So they had to go to different states. But, um, but they knew where, what my expectations of them, they knew they were part of, I was part of this. And they knew they were not just going to finish high school and not go to college. So they all did at least their four, the four-year degree. So for me, it is life. My experience, the people that I come to know here at the university, the faculty, staff, students, it gave me life. I'm telling you, I don't know where I would've been if it wasn’t for Cal State San Marcos. And the whole general San Marcos, the whole area. So I'm very, very grateful. Stanley: That's, that's incredible. Um, yeah, it's just, it's almost like a, it's become like a campus town at this point now. Berhane: Oh my God. Oh my gosh. I mean, when I was a student, there was no parking fees or anything (laughs). Now I have (to) pay, like an hour. You pay my job, just leave me (laughs). Stanley: Yeah. There's a train that runs along now. Berhane: That's a different story (laughs). That's a different story, man. Stanley: Getting back, uh, as we're winding down, um, I know that you had, you were involved with the Black Student Union and Black Student Center. How would would you say that pro, those programs and that, what's the word, uh, correlates or stacks up against the Cross-Cultural Center? I'd say, so. Berhane: Um, I think what, you know, during time, with time you have to identify all the different things that you need, who needs what. And so, I don't know, I don't wanna compare or compete or anything as, you know, not just a Black Student Center, not just a Latino Center, not just a Women's Center or a Native American Center. It's more they all have their own individual roles to play in the, in, in, you know, in this community. So, Black Student Center was a necessary department, was a necessary service, a necessary center to have on campus. If we are going to have specific groups feeling welcomed and that they have a space on campus. With Multicultural Programs its good, when multicultural, multi-ethnic, multi-gender, or whatever you call it, in name. It-- but they're able to come and use that as a center for that. But I think people feel comfortable where they feel they belong to. Just like the student organizations. When I was a student, when I see a sociology club, accounting club, Latino club, well, I wanted to have the Black Student Club. So I was part of a Black student club. Uh, we were calling it African American or African Student Organization, African, all kinds of stuff, trying to say we have something that belongs to us. So for me, it's not like in comparison to other centers, it was necessary to have a center for the Black students to feel comfortable enough to go there. And so for us, again, as advocates for services to different interests of different student groups, to have that implemented and to see that while I was a student, I while I was an employee here, was a great thing. I was always involved like I say from day one, whether since starting a student organization, once I became a staff (employee designation), we have the Black Faculty and Staff Association. I've been part of that (inaudible) since day one. When we graduated in 1992, I became one of the board members with the Alumni Association, starting Alumni Association I can say I've been part of a lot of starting things because I think the need, the need is there and if I'm able to help on engage(ment), why not? So I as, as someone who was active as a student, once I graduated, I was also pulled to help start the Alumni Association. And so I think, you know, in trying to answer your question, it's not really in competition or one over the other or against the other. It's more providing services to the different populations, different groups with different interests that we have on campus. Stanley: Uh, yeah, perhaps I worded that a little wrong. You touched on this before, but what role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center play as it coexists with the expansion of identity-specific spaces like you named before? Berhane: I think it requires an understanding of what its mission is, an understanding. So if I'm coming as a student, new student coming to campus, I'm a Black student. I'm not going to ask for multicultural programs where, you know, “Where is a multicultural program?” I'm gonna ask, where is a Black Student Center? If I'm going to join a student organization, I'm either going to ask for something related to my major or something related to my identity. And so, multicultural, Cross-Cultural Center, the definition of it needs to be clear to people from day one at orientation. Okay? And so, yes, it does have a mission. Yes, it does have a purpose to be here on campus to serve, but is it serving the group of people who don't have a center already? Or is it bringing all the centers together? And so, uh, reexamination of the whole purpose of Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center might be necessary at some point to say, “Who am I serving?” Okay? Because you have Latino Center here, Women's Center, gender, you know, gender and Black Student Center, there may be a need to really qualify, “Why should I go there?” Even though I know I'm familiar with it. But if I am a newcomer, what am I gonna look for? It does serve a population that doesn't, that doesn't fit any of the other ones (other centers). But what extent do they understand it? To what extent are they familiar and aware of this service and this center? Stanley: I guess the same thing I ask as a longtime CSUSM (staff and administrative) member and student of CSUSM, what advice would you give the Cross-Cultural Center to be more inclusive and, and get those people who are outside of the lines of the Latin( /x) Center, or the Black (Student) Center? Berhane: I don't know if, uh, Floyd (Lai, Director of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time of the interview’s recording) will need my advice. I'm sure he, he is very familiar with what he's doing and what, you know, what he sees all the different centers around him, and he works very closely with the student centers and stuff. So they don't really need my advice. But I think, you know, always doesn't hurt to go back and look at who is, who is being engaged here? Who is our population? Who is the most frequently arrival here in relation to-- So if I were to look back at who the most popular, what population used to be there... more often it is more of the Asian population. Okay. So the Asian population probably don't have any other location, but the Multicultural Programs (Cross-Cultural Center). Because we, I'm being honest, this Black Student center, Latino Center, Indian Center, there's an argument there should be a White center too. But (laughs), that's a different story. But I think the thing is, you know, a lot of, we’ve got to go back and take a look at the purpose of this center. Are we serving the population that we were formed to serve and continually revise. Take, you know, take notes of all the people who have come to you on a daily basis and see if we are missing anybody. If we are missing anybody, the best place to meet them is at orientation. When they all come in on campus with their families and you know, tell them where all the different services are, make that as a, you know, make it as an effort. I used to do recruitment too even when I was a student assistant. Students who heard me talk about “Cal State Marcos will offer you this, this, and that.” Once they come to Cal State San Marcos, if they experience the things that I told them ; Cal State San Marcos will serve you, they (the students) would remember that and say, “I'm so glad that you said that. I am glad I heard you say that.” And I can see, and really, I use that and it's helped, it has helped me. I really appreciate that. So, we need to be able to impact students from the day one, what kind of services we are providing for them and why they should come to our department, why they should come to our service, why they should come to my class, why they should do those things at the orientation, at wherever they are at the beginning. And so, identify your population, identifying all the different services you can provide, as much as you can provide. You don't expect someone, uh, search you and come to your office. They're not, they're not gonna come, unless they hear you say something, something. Stanley: So, yes. So to, to uh, summarize, make people aware of the program. Make sure that you know who you're serving and that, why they should come there. Berhane: Yes. That's how I feel. That's how I feel. I mean, people need to know. A lot of people if they, if you don't know it, you don't know it, you're not going to go and search for it. You haven't heard anybody talking about it. So even though it may be available in your fingertips, this is different. Maybe I'm old fashioned, maybe I'm more like from person to person, but for me, the only way people can come to (the services) is (if) they're aware of it. So make it aware and be clear about what services you're providing and where you are located, what your hours are, your phone number and blah blah. And have 'em (students) come. And it, again, it doesn't have to be limited to orientation or one area or this and that. Could be classrooms. It could be announcements, it could be a lot of things. But make sure that, you know, you are known on campus for providing services that all students need or specific students need. Stanley: All right. Well I really appreciate you coming. I'm gonna end the recording now. Berhane: Well, thank you. Uh, let me say thank you, uh, Seth, for this opportunity. And I say I'm grateful that you invited me and that I'm a part of this. I hope I have given you what I know a little bit, but I really appreciate this opportunity and thank you very much as well. Stanley: I enjoyed the conversation as well. Ending the recording now. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29.xml BerhaneGezai_StanleySeth_2023-03-29.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Berhane, Gezai. Interview March 29th, 2023. Description An account of the resource Gezai Berhane is a California State University San Marcos alumnus, where he was part of the first graduating class. Since his graduation, Berhane was a CSUSM employee until his retirement in 2021. Most recently he worked as Associate Director of Operations. In this interview, Berhane discusses his immigration journey, involvement with the Cross-Cultural Center, campus Greek life, and other student centers at California State University San Marcos. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-37 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Greek life California State University San Marcos. Student Activities Refugees -- Eritrea Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-29 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gezai Berhane Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seth Stanley Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Eritrea San Marcos, (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Gezai Berhane Black experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history Immigrant experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/0f70d634d980b560c08804e1f0c93dd9.pdf 6b0b5f6cda3e59307102e4f5a008ea9c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Burke, Gina. Interview transcript, November 13, 2025. Description An account of the resource Gina Burke served during the Vietnam War as a First Lieutenant operating room nurse in the U.S. Army Nurse Corps. Burke spoke about her family background in the Philippines, immigration to the U.S., and father’s military service. She enlisted in the Army Nurse Corps so she could complete nursing school with financial aid. Burke deployed to Vietnam and served mostly as a scrub nurse at a time when operating room nurses were in high demand. Burke reflected on the difficult working conditions and traumatic experiences that characterized her wartime service. She spoke about her social life and experience as a woman in the military. In this oral history, Burke shared how the military shaped her life and worldview. She spoke about her transition to civilian life and struggles with PTSD. Burke reflected on how counseling, community service, and veteran associations helped her feel better about her military service. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gina Burke Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-11-13 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Gina Burke License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BurkeGina_BeyerJason_2025-11-13_transcript Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army Nurse Corps Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Catholics Tagalog language Cebuano language Iloko language World War, 1939-1945 MacArthur, Douglas, 1880-1964 Leyte, Battle of, Philippines, 1944 Nursing education Military nursing Fort Sam Houston (Tex.) Fort Bliss (Tex.) William Beaumont Army Medical Center (El Paso, Tex.) Travis Air Force Base (Calif.) Vietnam. Army of the Republic of Vietnam. Corps, 1st United States. Army. 95th Evacuation Hospital Quonset huts Scrub nurses Medical Civic Action Programs American National Red Cross Fort Hood (Tex.) San Marcos Vet Center (Calif.) San Diego VA Medical Center (San Diego, Calif.) Agent Orange Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States Vietnam Veterans of America, Inc. American Legion Palomar College (San Marcos, Calif.) Cruisin’ Grand (Escondido, Calif.) Post-traumatic stress disorder Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam San Marcos (Calif.) Philippines California United States Leyte (Philippines) Cebu (Philippines) Luzon (Philippines) Denver (Colo.) Escondido (Calif.) El Paso (Tex.) Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam) Da Nang (Vietnam) San Diego County (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) Chula Vista (Calif.) Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history Immigrant experience San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gina Burke OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BurkeGina_BeyerJason_2025-11-13.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Burke, Gina. Interview November 13th, 2025 SC027-100 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm U.S. Army Nurse Corps ; Vietnam War, 1961-1975 ; Veteran ; First Lieutenant ; Philippines ; Escondido (Calif.) Gina Burke Jason Beyer Moving Image BurkeGina_BeyerJason_2025-11-13.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/f7ff35808abcdac1c1144cc25c62378d.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction and Military Background Virginia Burke describes her military background. She served during the Vietnam War as a First Lieutenant operating room nurse in the U.S. Army Nurse Corps. California State University San Marcos ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; U.S. Army Nurse Corps ; First Lieutenant ; Vietnam ; operating room nurse 0 63 Family Background, Childhood in the Philippines, and Immigration to the United States Burke shares her family background, including her upbringing in the Philippines. Her father served during WWII, and Burke lived through the war’s devasting impact on the Philippines. At five years old, her family immigrated to California. Philippines ; World War II ; California ; United States ; orphanage ; Central Philippines ; Catholic ; English ; Tagalog ; Cebuano ; Leyte (Philippines) ; Cebu (Philippines) ; Luzon (Philippines) ; Ilocano 0 258 Family Military Background and Burke’s Decision to Join the Military Burke’s father served in the U.S. Army during WWII and was injured in the Battle of Leyte. Her family’s military background influenced Burke’s decision to join the military. She remembers changing her father’s wound bandages, which she considers the start of her road to becoming a nurse. U.S. Army ; World War II ; General Douglas MacArthur ; Leyte (Philippines) ; Battle of Leyte ; tuberculosis ; Denver (Colo.) ; VA hospital ; Escondido (Calif.) ; nurse ; military 0 428 Working at a Nursing Home and Burke’s Decision to Join the Army Nurse Corps Burke worked at a nursing school during the summers as a high school student, which inspired her to become a nurse. Burke struggled with money to finish nursing school, so she enlisted in the Army Nurse Corps and graduated using financial aid. Burke got her commission and went to Fort Sam Houston in Texas. nursing home ; summer ; high school ; nursing school ; military recruiters ; U.S. Army Nurse Corps ; Fort Sam Houston ; Air Force ; financial aid 0 638 Early Military Experience and Training Burke described her early military experience as exciting. She completed basic training in the medical field, including some firearms training with a .45 handgun. She completed military nursing classes and operating room school. After basic training, she transferred to the William Beaumont Hospital at Fort Bliss where she worked in the hospital wards. Burke had to learn much in a short time, because military operating room nurses were in high demand for the war. basic training ; military nursing ; .45 (handgun) ; field hospital ; operating room school ; El Paso (Texas) ; Fort Bliss ; Beaumont Hospital 0 946 Promotions and Adapting to Military Service After she completed operating room school, Burke had orders to go to Vietnam. She received her first promotion when she arrived in Vietnam. The easiest part of adapting to military service for Burke was education, because she had already “been to school so much already.” promotion ; Vietnam ; operating room ; Beaumont Hospital ; ward 0 1081 Social Life in the Military Burke described what it felt like to serve as a woman in the military, which is predominantly male. Most nurses were female, although there were a few male nurses. Burke was initially shy but "opened up a lot” once she adjusted to her new environment. Vietnam ; operating room nursing ; friend ; roommate ; school ; nurse ; shy ; medical field ; social life 0 1219 Deployment to Vietnam Burke’s deployment to Vietnam was very hard on her family. Her WWII-veteran father and uncle both cried on the day she left. Burke says that she only realized later why her family was so concerned, because some nurses were killed in combat in Vietnam. She says that she always thought God would take care of her. Burke landed in Saigon then arrived at the 95th evacuation hospital in Da Nang, which was a permanent field hospital. Burke described some of the work she did at the hospital, mostly as a scrub nurse for neural cases. wartime service ; Vietnam ; Travis Air Force Base ; World War II ; military ; nurse ; combat ; Army ; woman ; Saigon (Vietnam) ; I Corps (ARVN) ; 95th evacuation hospital ; Da Nang (Vietnam) ; field hospital ; Quonset hut ; operating room ; scoping ; scrub nurse 0 1479 Service and Social Life in Vietnam Burke described the immense pressure that she worked under. Nurses were understaffed, worked long hours, and had little downtime because they could not leave a case unless it was finished. The nurses knew to return to the hospital when they heard incoming helicopters with wounded servicemembers. Burke went on some MEDCAP visits, which stands for the Medical Civic Action Program. These visits supported local Vietnamese with medical services. The social life in Vietnam was difficult due to the workload, but on her time off there were occasional gatherings for meals at a nearby Naval Hospital or trips to “China Beach” when the weather was nice. It was hard for Burke to stay connected with many of her military friends because she did not get their contact information before leaving. friend ; work ; nurse ; helicopter ; Da Nang (Vietnam) ; hospital ; operating room ; MEDCAP ; Medical Civic Action Program ; doctor ; village ; surgery ; kid ; cleft palate ; bedside nurse ; ICU ; Intensive Care Unit ; dinner ; food ; China Beach (Da Nang, Vietnam) ; casualty ; downtime ; beach ; recreation area ; weather ; Navy ; Naval Hospital ; anesthesiologist ; Army Hospital ; phone number ; address ; woman ; plane ; West Coast ; California 0 2022 Communication with Friends and Family in the U.S. While Deployed Overseas Burke communicated with her friends and family by mail. Her family once sent her a tape-recorded message. Burke mostly corresponded with her friend stationed at Fort Bliss, who became a close friend throughout her life. Burke described the difficulties with communication today caused by incorrect contact information or new communication technology. mail ; tape recording ; California ; San Diego County (Calif.) ; fair ; Red Cross ; letter ; friend ; Fort Bliss ; contact ; technology ; computer ; answering service ; phone 0 2177 Keepsakes and Lighthearted Memories While Deployed Burke did not bring much with her to Vietnam because she did not know what to expect nor want to lose anything. However, she did have her Catholic rosary and some books. Burke also hinted at a humorously embarrassing moment that took place on the beach. keepsake ; rosary ; Catholic ; book ; read ; superstition ; God ; Vietnam ; memory ; humorous ; beach 0 2304 End of Military Service Burke was glad to return stateside and end her military service, but she was disappointed to lose the contact information of people she formed relationships with. Burke described her military career as traumatic, especially at the beginning of her time in Vietnam. Burke reflected on the “atmosphere of the society in general” and feelings of animosity toward Vietnam veterans. Burke remembers changing out of her military uniform at the airport in order to avoid protest. Burke says she was generally treated better because she was a nurse, but she still “felt sad going to the airports.” Fort Hood ; Fort Sam Houston ; El Paso ; William Beaumont Hospital ; address ; transition ; discharge ; Los Angeles (Calif.) ; California ; atmosphere ; military career ; trauma ; animosity ; airport ; flight attendant ; uniform ; Army ; nurse ; hospital ; civilian 0 2618 Transition to Civilian Life and PTSD When Burke returned to civilian life, she rarely spoke of her military service and never told her family about it. She talked about her military experience only with other veterans, who were usually men. Although Burke married a Vietnam veteran who served in the Navy, they never talked about war experiences. She started to realize she was having terrible nightmares and worried she was developing a mental illness like her mother had. Burke felt paranoia, fear, and anger. She struggled with loud noises and would cry often. She went to a psychologist, but he said he could not help her. 14 years after her first husband passed away, her second husband suggested that she may have PTSD. Burke’s husband helped her receive counseling and treatment from the San Marcos Veterans Center and San Diego VA Medical Center. The services she received have helped her feel better about her military service. She now helps other veterans access these services and has joined multiple veterans' associations. family ; community ; military service ; veteran ; women ; woman ; married ; San Diego (Calif.) ; military community ; Vietnam ; Navy ; China Sea ; nightmare ; paranoid ; afraid ; cry ; husband ; California ; counseling ; civilian life ; work ; civilian nurse ; Northern California ; mental illness ; mother ; psychologist ; anger ; doctor ; PTSD ; San Marcos Veterans Center ; VA hospital ; La Jolla (San Diego) ; Agent Orange ; sailor ; war ; overseas ; Chula Vista (Calif.) ; VFW ; Veterans of Foreign Wars ; Vietnam Veterans of America ; American Legion ; military organization 0 3572 How Military Service Shaped Burke’s Life and Worldview Burke thinks that U.S. society did a terrible disservice to Vietnam veterans and that many veterans repressed their trauma as a result. She also reflected on her experience as a female veteran. Burke believes all veterans need to talk about their service and build community. Her military service inspired her to join veteran organizations, volunteer to support the military community, and share what she has learned about the medical field with other veterans. military service ; Vietnam ; veteran ; woman ; military organization ; veteran community ; medical field ; Agent Orange ; medical problem ; drugs 0 3928 Message for Future Generations, What People Should Know About Veterans, and Life Lessons from Military Service Burke urges future generations who join the military to also join a military organization and support the community. She says that, if she would have joined an organization sooner, she would have felt less alone as a woman in the service. Now, Burke makes lunches for veterans at Palomar College and enjoys supporting the veteran community. She wishes more people understood that veterans have sacrificed much for the United States. Burke thinks it is important not to demean veterans’ service or forget what they have sacrificed. military organization ; military community ; woman ; women ; Palomar College ; lunch ; veteran ; sacrifice ; service 0 4185 Involvement with San Diego County Community Burke got connected with the San Diego County community mostly through volunteer work. She has volunteered for her church and other organizations. Much of her recent volunteer work has been supporting the military veteran community. She is satisfied with her volunteer work and the people she has connected with. volunteer ; organization ; church ; community ; veteran ; military ; Cruisin' Grand ; Escondido (Calif.) 0 4314 Conclusion Burke thanks the interviewer and is grateful that veterans are able to share their feelings about military service. She wants people to talk with veterans in their community, many of whom are volunteers. volunteer ; community ; civilian 0 Oral history Gina Burke served during the Vietnam War as a First Lieutenant operating room nurse in the U.S. Army Nurse Corps. Burke spoke about her family background in the Philippines, immigration to the U.S., and father’s military service. She enlisted in the Army Nurse Corps so she could complete nursing school with financial aid. Burke deployed to Vietnam and served mostly as a scrub nurse at a time when operating room nurses were in high demand. Burke reflected on the difficult working conditions and traumatic experiences that characterized her wartime service. She spoke about her social life and experience as a woman in the military. In this oral history, Burke shared how the military shaped her life and worldview. She spoke about her transition to civilian life and struggles with PTSD. Burke reflected on how counseling, community service, and veteran associations helped her feel better about her military service. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:02.705 --> 00:00:32.005 My name is Jason Beyer, and I'm a graduate of CSUSM (California State University San Marcos). Today is Thursday, November 13th, 2025, and we're conducting this interview in San Marcos, California with Virginia F. Burke. Also present is photographer Vyanh Vo. This oral history will preserve the lived experiences of United States military veterans. Please state your full name. 00:00:32.005 --> 00:00:34.594 Virginia Fay Burke. 00:00:34.594 --> 00:00:36.484 Your branch of service. 00:00:36.484 --> 00:00:39.945 I was in the U.S. Army Nurse Corps. 00:00:39.945 --> 00:00:42.244 The highest rank that you attained. 00:00:42.244 --> 00:00:44.265 First Lieutenant. 00:00:44.265 --> 00:00:51.445 And please state the war or conflict that was happening during your time of service. 00:00:51.445 --> 00:01:03.015 I served in Vietnam as an operating room nurse and in the Army Nurse Corps. 00:01:03.015 --> 00:01:10.965 Thank you. So now what we'll do is begin with a brief introduction. So where were you born and raised? 00:01:10.965 --> 00:01:40.015 I was born in the Philippines when my father got stationed there during World War II, at the end of the war. And after five years, we immigrated to California. My dad was in the hospital for four years, so that's why there was a big lag time for us to come to United States. 00:01:40.015 --> 00:01:49.344 Being five years old and living in the Philippines, do you remember what that life was like for the first five years you were there? 00:01:49.344 --> 00:02:52.764 Yes, vividly, because at the age of three I took care of my brother, and we were put in a orphanage because my mom needed to go back to her island home in Central Philippines. And she left us there in a Catholic orphanage. And I remember going outside and you could see all the destruction from World War II buildings that had not been rebuilt up to that point. And food was scarce. We got a lot of our food from the US military, but it didn't last very long. But sometimes we got fresh fruit from the States and that was always a nice surprise for the kids. 00:02:52.764 --> 00:02:58.000 When you finally reached the United States, was that a hard transition for you? 00:02:58.000 --> 00:04:18.045 Yes, because we didn't speak English at the time. My brother and I spoke Tagalog. My mother spoke her language, which was Cebuano because it was in Leyte and Cebu area. So she was schooled in Cebu, so she knew Cebuano quite well. And my dad—when he was born—he was born up in northern Luzon on the seacoast, and he spoke his language and it was Ilocano. So when we spoke in our house in California, we all spoke English (laughs). And my dad wanted us to learn how to speak English. So he really wanted us to speak English. And in fact, he would pinch us if he (laughs) heard us speaking Tagalog, just to emphasize how important it was for us to speak English. 00:04:18.045 --> 00:04:25.545 Did your family ever serve in the US military or other military service from other countries before you? 00:04:25.545 --> 00:05:05.264 My father only. He was in the US Army. They drafted him when World War II started. So he went into the service in 1942—or '41—no, '42. And he served until he was injured when General MacArthur (Douglas MacArthur) landed in Leyte, 'cause he was involved in the Battle of Leyte. He went on shore there. 00:05:05.264 --> 00:05:10.365 Did that play an influence on your decision to join the military? 00:05:10.365 --> 00:07:08.814 Yes, very much so. My father was wounded in that battle. And while he was recovering, he was exposed to tuberculosis. And they didn't diagnose it for almost a year. And by the time they realized he had it, it had spread through his whole body, just about. And so they gave him a medical discharge and sent him to Denver, Colorado, to the big VA hospital that had tuberculosis wards there. There were several floors and there were many, many tuberculosis patients there. And that's what my dad had always told me. He kept in touch with those men, even though he didn't fight with them, but he kept in touch with them because they had something in common. But he came home with a open wound when he came home. We moved to Escondido (California) in 1952, when we arrived here. And at age nine, one day I saw him changing his wound bandage. And I said, "How can you reach it?" Because it was way in the back on his right side. And he says, "Well, I just have to do what I can." So I said, "I can help you." And so that's the start of my road to becoming a nurse. And I really wanted to be a nurse in the military because I could take care of patients in the hospital when I became a nurse. 00:07:08.814 --> 00:07:22.964 Leading up to your military service, prior to that, while you were in high school or getting ready to graduate, did you ever hold any jobs before joining the service? 00:07:22.964 --> 00:08:16.964 Well, I worked in a nursing home during the summer—two years, two summers. And so I kind of liked taking care of the patients, but they were elderly and we had to help them get out of bed. We gave them bed baths. The nurses there taught me how to do that and how to do—but I liked it. So I said, "Yes!" Now I knew I could become a nurse. So that was my goal in high school anyway, was to become a nurse. So I really didn't have any experience except doing my dad's wound change, and doing the bandage. 00:08:16.964 --> 00:08:25.004 What led you to your final decision to serve, and were you drafted or did you get a commission as an officer? 00:08:25.004 --> 00:09:43.144 Well, when I was in nursing school, I was—I didn't have very much money to finish school, and so I was trying to see if I could get a grant or some kind of scholarship. But, everything was—by the time I decided I needed it, the money was gone already. And so when I was in the nursing program, recruiters—military recruiters—came to our dormitory. And so I had a talk with them. And it turned out that the Army Nurse Corps had the best one for me because I could go in right away. And I was enlisted into the Army Nurse program—so with the financial aid in my last year of nursing school. And after I graduated from the school, then I got my commission, and then went to Fort Sam Houston (Texas). 00:09:43.144 --> 00:09:52.225 As far as the different branches, did that play a role in your decision for the Army over the, like such as the Navy or the Air Force at the time? 00:09:52.225 --> 00:10:38.065 Yes, because I really wanted to go into the Air Force because I thought that flight nursing was gonna be a possibility for me. But then they didn't have any programs that I could use to help me with my financial aid, and the Army had the program. And that's why I decided to go with that, because I didn't wanna wait another year to finish up my nursing program because I felt that I would not remember a lot of my schooling to take the state board if I took a whole year off from school just to earn the money to go back to school. 00:10:38.065 --> 00:10:46.000 So now we're moving on to your early military experience. What do you remember about your first days in the military? 00:10:46.000 --> 00:11:34.725 (Burke laughs.) It was exciting because I'd been in school for 17 years at that point. And, so it was nice to just be kind of free from studying. And it was exciting meeting new people and getting used to the military. Of course, there were things that they, you know, the rest of the military liked to play pranks on you, but I coped with it. I was so happy all the time, and I was—I guess I was a target (laughs). But it was fun. I liked it—meeting the new friends—and so it was great (laughs). 00:11:34.725 --> 00:11:41.434 What kind of training did you receive or schooling did you complete at the beginning of your early days of service? 00:11:41.434 --> 00:13:57.544 Well, I took my basic training in the medical field. They helped us with wearing a uniform and all the rules that you had. We took classes in military nursing, filling out the forms, that kind of thing. And we had to learn basic military. We went on a—oh, I forgot what the name of it was, but they taught you how to hold a gun, especially a .45, because that's what we would have to have if we ever were surrounded by the enemy. That's the only weapon that you could carry. But, you know, it was hard. I was small. I couldn't carry a gun as heavy as a .45. I had to use two hands just to hold it. But it made it interesting. And then we set up a field hospital and we learned all the formularies for the pharmacy that we were exposed to. How to get medications to the area. And then I was trying to get ready for my operating room school. And after I finished the basic training, then I was transferred to El Paso, to Fort Bliss. And I was working in the Beaumont Hospital. It was a field hospital. And I worked on two wards—a neuro (neurology) ward and urology ward—just to get some experience working in a military hospital. That was my first hospital that I worked in after my schooling. 00:13:57.544 --> 00:14:04.225 Do you recall any instructors or leaders who had a lasting impact on you all in your training? 00:14:04.225 --> 00:15:46.365 Oh, I remember my teacher for the operating room school. She was very good at what she did. Her name was Major Blackwood, I think it was her name. And she was a—I tried to remember everything, all the little, you know, tips that she would help us with. And she taught us all the aseptic technique, all the instrumentation for different surgeries. And I learned a lot more about anatomy and physiology, because in the operating room, you have to know that. So depending on what the wound was, you would know a lot more about the anatomy of body. And it was a great course. It was supposed to be a six-month course, but they needed operating room nurses so badly. And it was scaled down to four months, but we went to school every day for at least 8-hour plus—10-hour plus days sometimes, because sometimes we had to go to the OR just to learn how to set up an operating room. 00:15:46.365 --> 00:15:52.215 Were there any promotions or milestones during your early days of service you'd like to share? 00:15:52.215 --> 00:16:54.304 I didn't get a promotion until my first year was over, and I already had orders to go to Vietnam by that time 'cause I had finished my course in the operating room. So when I went to Beaumont—when I worked on the wards—they were trying to get me to think about the operating room school. And so I didn't get any promotions, but I knew that I was going to Vietnam. And so, on the way there, my promotion went through. So on the other side, when I got to Vietnam, they gave me my promotion. 00:16:54.304 --> 00:17:00.754 What part of the military life came naturally or felt the easiest for you? 00:17:00.754 --> 00:18:01.934 Well, I'd been to school so much already. I thought the school room was the—I loved it. I tried hard to remember everything that I learned. And I would talk to the doctors about the surgeries, and they gave me a lot of information that I carried to the end of my career in nursing—in the civilian life. And I've saved several people's lives because of the tips that doctors would tell me during surgery. And I felt blessed in that way because I had a good memory. And so I thought that was a plus for me (laughs). 00:18:01.934 --> 00:18:13.944 During your stateside service, before you left for Vietnam, what was your interaction like with other people in the military or people you might have met off base or something? 00:18:13.944 --> 00:20:19.375 Well, you know, when I came into the service, there weren't very many women coming. In my class, we even had one man that was doing operating room nursing. He had to take it so that—he wanted to be a nurse anesthetist. So the others, you know, we all came from different walks of life. So it was a hit and miss whether you could make a good friend. And I became friends with my roommate because we lived together, but she still went her way after we left the school. And most of the men—most of the military that I came in contact with were men, except for the nurses. And but going to school in the military—I don't know, it just seemed like there were more men than there were women. And the women were very shy. I didn't think I was that shy. I mean, I was shy because I didn't have very many experiences when I was a child. But once I realized what my environment was gonna be, I really opened up a lot. And I was always trying to learn a lot, not only about my environment and the medical field, you know, but even just my social environment, because it was all new to me when I went into the service—all new. Social life, military life, medical life. So I learned a lot. And that's what I wanted to do—and I did. 00:20:19.375 --> 00:20:30.625 So now we're moving on to your wartime service. You stated that you served in Vietnam. What was it like for you the day before you left for Vietnam? 00:20:30.625 --> 00:22:29.914 Well, my family took me up to Travis Air Force Base to catch the flight. And I didn't realize that my dad and my uncle were really concerned about me going to Vietnam because they had been in battle in World War II. But my dad was proud that I was in the military as a nurse. But he was also afraid for me to go to combat. But I never thought anything about the combat part. I just knew I was gonna be now nursing in the Army. So my family was all concerned, and my dad and uncle started crying, and so did my aunt. And I felt embarrassed because I was the only one that was a woman there. All the rest of the guys that got on the plane were men. And they were all looking at our—my family. And after I got on the plane, they said, "Oh, it's all right. You were the only woman there. Of course, they're gonna cry. You know, they don't, have a woman going into the combat zone very often." So then I said, "Okay, that's right." And I never realized it until later though, how much they worried about me. And when I found out that there were some nurses that were killed over in Vietnam, I really got concerned. But I made it through. I just felt, well, I have a spiritual side of me, and I always thought that God will take care of me. And so I trusted that (laughs). 00:22:29.914 --> 00:22:33.714 When and where did you deploy to in Vietnam? 00:22:33.714 --> 00:24:39.815 Well, I landed in Saigon, but as soon as I got my orders in Saigon they said I was going up to I Corps (ARVN), and I went to the 95th evacuation hospital in Da Nang. It was a field hospital, but it was a permanent field hospital. It was made of Quonset huts. And we had three, well, four operating rooms. Three of 'em they used every day. The only time they used the fourth one was when they had something that was different, like a scoping—or what we called scoping in those days when they were trying to do a kidney or a bladder problem. And they would go in there and work on that patient. I only did one person, one patient there. And it was pretty simple. And then that was it. I never went in that room anymore. I was—because I was mostly a scrub nurse for regular wounds—neural cases were the ones that I really, I did a lot of neural cases—brain injury and neck injuries—that kind of thing. And then we did a lot of abdominal cases. We had amputations. And those were big cases for me, because I'd never been exposed to those kinds of cases in the military in the States. So I learned a lot, and it prepared me for my civilian life. 00:24:39.815 --> 00:24:49.214 What stands out the most about your time overseas? Moments that were meaningful, difficult, or unexpected? 00:24:49.214 --> 00:26:32.365 Well, I was really surprised because I didn't make a lot of good friends there, because I was so busy working all the time. And on my downtime, I didn't know anybody else that would have the time off. Because we had a few nurses, but we had to stagger the days that we were off because we had to cover the rooms. And we never knew when the wounded would come in. In fact, they'll call you in—wherever you are—to come and do cases if they got a lot of wounded coming in by helicopter. You could hear the helicopters landing anywhere you went, except unless you went to the air base in Da Nang. But if you stayed around the hospital, you could hear them landing and you knew you had to get back to the hospital. But I only did that once because they were able to have a lot of the nurses stay around the operating room. And so by the time I got back to the base, well then it was time for me to go on. And we had long hours there. Most of the time it was long hours when they had casualties come in, and we couldn't leave a case unless it's finished. So it was one right after another. 00:26:32.365 --> 00:26:40.233 What were your experiences like with the local population or the different cultures while in Vietnam? Did you get to experience that at all? 00:26:40.233 --> 00:28:14.444 The only time I really got experiences, I went on a med—what they call a MEDCAP (Medical Civic Action Program). We would go into the villages and do—well, the doctors would go and see patients and then if they needed bandage changes or an injection, we gave those. And since I didn't speak their language, you know, you had to rely on the interpreters that came with us. But it was kind of simple because since my work was mostly in surgery, I didn't do a lot of work on patients when they were awake (laughs). So it was different for me, but I tried it 'cause I wanted to see what it was like. And mostly, you know, we—I helped the doctors hold the patients when they're doing examinations and that kind of thing. We did a lot of kids and we would try to get them booked for the OR for lots of little surgeries and some major surgeries, if we had a doctor to do it. They had a lot of cleft palates and things like that. And we could do those in our surgery. 00:28:14.444 --> 00:28:21.105 Did you form any lasting friendships or bonds during this time in service in Vietnam? 00:28:21.105 --> 00:33:42.325 I had one friend, but she was on the floor, you know. She was a bedside nurse, mostly in ICU (Intensive Care Unit). So I didn't get to see her too often because their hours were different from our hours, and we hardly ever got time off together. Once in a while in the evening, if we were free, we could get together and have dinner together. And then some of the doctors that I got to know, sometimes I would go to dinner with them, but I didn't like dinner there. I couldn't hardly eat it. The food wasn't very good. After—you know, we didn't get off at the meal times. So we missed meal times because we didn't—we would be on cases around the clock. And so when we did have time off, then we tried to go someplace where we could get a decent meal. And most of the time we went down to China Beach (Da Nang, Vietnam) and got a hamburger or something like that. But we'd have to come back right away because we never knew if their casualties are gonna come in. So there was only one part of that time when I was there where we had a lot of downtime because there was no fighting. And so we would go down to the—it was an in-country recreation area. So we would go down there and go to the beach and that kind of thing. And that was fun. That was a fun time for me. But it didn't last long because of the weather. Weather changed after a while, and then we didn't go—I didn't go there anymore, and it was mostly on the base. And I read a lot. And my—one of the doctors I worked with, he was in the Navy. He was lent to us by the Naval Hospital that closed down. They had just come in country. And so two anesthesiologists came to our base and worked with us in the Army Hospital. And I got to know the one that was an anesthesiologist. And sometimes we would go to his naval hospital that was just down the road. And we could go to dinner there. And that was real good food (laughs). I remember that. I really liked going there. So if he asked me if I wanted to go, and he was off and I was off, he says, "Come on, Gina, let's go and have a good dinner" (laughs). I never turned it down (laughs). But I lost touch with him. I guess it's because, you know, when we came home, it was not good. We didn't talk about military service. I never talked about it at all. My family never asked me questions about it. And so it was like I lost everything that—lots of memory. I tried to put the memory behind me because it was not a good time. And so I didn't keep up with a lot of the ones that I'd gotten to know in Vietnam, because we all went different ways. We didn't come home together. And you forget when you're trying to go home, 'cause you're happy to go home, but then you forget to get phone numbers and addresses and stuff, things like that to really keep up. And so it was hard for me, because I was there by myself. I was the only woman coming back home on the plane. In fact, I didn't even sit with the men in the back. I sat in front (laughs), because I was the only woman on the plane (laughs again). And all I did was sleep most of the time. So I never really thought about keeping in touch with them because we're so far away. We were spread out all over. Most of the ones I got to know were back east. And I was going to the West Coast (laughs). I lived here in California for most of my life until I got married (laughs). 00:33:42.325 --> 00:33:46.184 How did you stay in touch with your loved ones back home? 00:33:46.184 --> 00:34:37.945 They wrote to me by mail. One time they sent me a little tape recording that they made while—when they went to the fair—the state fair in California, in San Diego County—they went to the fair and the Red Cross had had set up a way to record their message. And I got a recording from them in July. I remember thinking, Well, how am I gonna listen to this? I don't have a tape recorder (laughs). And when I told somebody about it in the operating room, they said, "Oh, I have a tape recorder if you wanna listen to it!" And I said, "Yeah." So everybody got to listen to it (laughs). Yeah. 00:34:37.945 --> 00:34:46.047 Was it hard for you to hear the voice of your family members while you're in the middle of a war zone and away for the holidays and— 00:34:46.047 --> 00:36:17.905 —Oh, yes. 'cause I missed them. And, so they only—see, they didn't really know that they could talk to me or write to me, because I never—I only wrote a couple of letters home. I mostly wrote to a friend of mine that was stationed in Fort Bliss—one of my friends from Fort Bliss that I met there. We became good friends throughout my life. And I just lost contact with her a few years ago, maybe because well, she was older than I was, so I think maybe she didn't know how to maneuver—how to use the technology that we have today. You know, she didn't have a computer or anything like that. And I tried to get her to get a answering service on her phone. And it took her a long time because she didn't even know where to go get one (laughs). So I lost touch with those that couldn't keep up with the technology in the later years. 00:36:17.905 --> 00:36:25.244 Did you carry any rituals or keepsakes or good luck items during your time in Vietnam? 00:36:25.244 --> 00:37:51.184 Not really. I had my rosary 'cause I was a Catholic. I had my rosary and that's about all I had. I didn't carry too much over 'cause I didn't wanna lose anything, you know, because I didn't know where we would keep 'em. I had no idea what life was gonna be like. I thought it was always moving around, and I didn't realize that I was gonna have a room to myself and those kinds of things. So I didn't take very much. I took a couple of books because I like to read. But even the books I got from others, because when I read the books that I took with me, I didn't have anything else to read. But some of the others had books that they had collected, we would pass 'em around to the ones that like to read. And that's about all that I had. I don't—I wasn't—what do you call it?—into superstition. I—like I said—I always just believed in God (laughs). 00:37:51.184 --> 00:37:58.914 Were there any lighthearted memories or humorous events that you'd like to share about your time in Vietnam? 00:37:58.914 --> 00:38:24.545 Well (smiles, laughs). I don't think I should do that one because it happened on the beach (laughs)! And I felt so embarrassed I had to go back to the room (laughs). So if you can imagine that (laughs), that's all I can say! 00:38:24.545 --> 00:38:32.034 When it was time for you to leave and return back stateside, what did that feel like for you? 00:38:32.034 --> 00:39:47.144 I was glad because, you know, you get lonesome there. I didn't really have a real good, good friend like I did in the States. I formed relationships at—not so much at Fort Hood, the last place I was at, but from Fort Sam Houston and El Paso, William Beaumont, I had friends that we kept in touch with. And slowly, I lost touch with them as we moved—I moved a lot. So I really was the one that had to keep in touch with them. And sometimes I couldn't keep up with them because, you know, you lose their address or they changed their address. I changed my address so many times. People couldn't keep up with me (laughs). So that's why, I tried to keep up with some of 'em as much as I could, but it was hard. 00:39:47.144 --> 00:39:58.474 So we're moving on to your transition out of service. Do you remember the day your service ended? Please describe what that was like. 00:39:58.474 --> 00:43:38.014 Well, I only remembered going to the hospital. I went back east because I knew somebody back there that I could be with. And I didn't realize that when I went back there, they were gonna transition me for discharge. And so I thought I was gonna go back to L.A. (Los Angeles), but I could go anywhere I wanted. So I said, well, I think I would like to go there to be with my friend there. And, so I, you know, I don't really remember a lot about that day because I was just anxious to go back to California. I saw my friend and we did some things together, but then I went back home. I decided that I was gonna end my military career, because after that year—it was really traumatic for me at the beginning, and I didn't know how much it was going to affect me after I came back, especially with the atmosphere of the society in general. I was almost afraid to let anybody know that I'd been in the military. I felt that animosity even in the airport when I got off the plane. And so some of the flight attendants would tell me, "You should change outta your uniform when we land in Seattle." She says, "Get out of your uniform, so that you won't be noticed because some people are just mean." And I guess they saw that when the military got off the plane and into the society. So I was kind of scared, by myself walking around, but I did change into civilian uniform when I could. But when you traveled at that time—what's the name of that—I forgot what you call it when you travel by military—you had to wear your uniform in and out of the airport. So I tried to put on a jacket or something so that I wouldn't have to show the whole uniform. But some would ask me, "Oh, what did you do in the Army?" And I'd say, "I was a nurse in the hospital there." And, so I guess they thought that it was okay. So they didn't do anything to me, but I saw other things to other soldiers, and it was—I was sad. I felt sad going to the airports. And I never talked about those kinds of things, so I kept it inside. 00:43:38.014 --> 00:43:44.514 How were you received by your family or your community after you ended your service ended? 00:43:44.514 --> 00:59:32.045 I just, really, it was like, I'd never been gone. They never asked me about my military service. My family never asked me what it was like. They just didn't talk about it. So when I came home, I just—I said, "Well, I guess they don't wanna know. Maybe they're afraid to ask me anything." And so I kept it all to myself—unless I met a veteran and he says, "So, where were you stationed?" Well, of course I would tell him, but I knew that he was a military guy. Mostly it was all guys. That's all I—'cause there weren't very many women in the military at that time, you know, like they do now. So I would tell him about things that I would go through, you know, being a only woman out in the field and different places where I was stationed. And I felt comfortable talking to a veteran. But when I—after I got married and went back east, it was—we never talked about it. Most people didn't even know I'd been in the military. And that was—I got married three years after I came back. And then we were in San Diego—there's a lot of veterans—so I could talk to them, but most people didn't—even in the military—they didn't talk. They didn't ask questions, they just kept it quiet. It was like there were no military in San Diego, if you can believe that, because it's a big military community! But we hardly ever talked about our service. I hardly ever talked about it. Oh, sometimes they would mention it, but never personal experiences or anything like that. So I just thought that was, you know, normal. And I think a lot of the guys that had been in Vietnam, they felt the same way. They didn't talk about it. I was married to a Vietnam—but he was in a Vietnam military. He was in the Navy. But he stayed on the ship. He went—he took four tours over there in the China Sea, on the ship. And he never talked about it with me, only about what they did on the ship, but never about the war. And all his friends were the same way. We never talked about it. They never asked me about—in fact, they—some of them didn't even know I'd been in the military. And here I was married to a military man. And so I just didn't pay attention to it. But after I got married, I realized I was having terrible nightmares—real bad nightmares. And I know I just brushed it off because I didn't know that I was subject to that. I didn't know that that was normal for me, I guess, because of what I've gone through. I saw things that maybe a person my age and my experiences, that— I didn't know that. I've carried that burden through my whole life, having those nightmares and didn't know what was wrong with me. I got afraid. I became very paranoid, 'cause I was afraid of things that I wasn't afraid of before I left to go there. I couldn't stand being around loud noises. That was one thing I noticed. And I didn't like things on the streets, you know? And I was driving. And my husband would get mad at me if I swerved on the street. And he says, "What'd you do that for?" I said, "I didn't wanna run over the little squirrel." And he got upset with me. And I said, well—I didn't know that that was part of my paranoia. I didn't know in the—I still cried a lot. 'Cause that's what I did in Vietnam. I cried a lot, especially when I saw these horrific wounds. And I thought about those—the men that had to go back with those wounds. I didn't know how they could live. And I worried about that. (Burke's eyes tear up.) I said, "That was part of my problem with Vietnam." Because I kept that all inside of me, not knowing what was going on, what was normal or what wasn't. I just held it in until I came back here, back to California, and someone said, "You really need to go and have some counseling. 'Cause you have been affected by your wartime service." And the first day I had my counseling, I cried most of the whole time because I didn't realize that all that this was from that time period. Holding it inside, never talking about it, I never knew that this could happen to me. I've learned a lot now in the last—what I've been going now to counseling since 2014. I thought that I was going crazy when I was in the civilian life—when I got out and I started working. After I got married—no, before I got married—when I was working as a civilian nurse up in Northern California, I had run into these accidents and I started having those thoughts again about the patient. And I went home and I cried. Didn't know why I was crying. And I thought I was—see, my mother had a mental illness, and I thought that that's what was happening to me—that I was getting a mental illness because I couldn't stop crying. And so I made an appointment to go see a psychologist, but he couldn't help me. He didn't understand what I was feeling inside. And when I told him that I'd been in the military and I had just come back from Vietnam, he says, "Oh." He says, "You know, I really can't help you because I'm a family counselor." And he says, "And I don't know anybody that can help you with any wartime problems. So I just thought, okay, well now I guess I have to learn to cope with this because I was having a hard time with anger issues in the civilian hospitals. And, I had to control my anger. And I just lived that way. And even my husband, we would have arguments at home because of an anger issue. And I never—and he didn't know what was wrong with me. All he said was, "I think you should go see a doctor." But I didn't know anybody who to go to. 'Cause at that time we were back east, and I didn't know—I didn't have any military friends back there. And we didn't know what was wrong with me. He just knew there was something wrong with me. And it wasn't until my husband passed away and I was—I was single for 14 years before I met my second husband. And while we were going together, he noticed, he said, "You have signs of PTSD, do you know that?" And I said, "What's that?" And he says, "It's the name we call all of the symptoms that you have, because I hear you at nighttime. And see, I thought that I had gotten rid of it because I didn't have—no one knew that I was screaming in my sleep. I just knew that I was scared in my sleep. I never told anybody. And but when I got married, my husband saw it when I was sleeping, and it would wake him up from his sleep. And he says, "I think you need to go and see—and I know somebody over at the San Marcos Vet Center (San Marcos Veterans Center), 'cause I—he moved in with me after we got married. And he said, "I want you to go." So he took me there. He took me to the VA hospital in La Jolla (San Diego Veterans Administration Medical Center) and signed me up for Agent Orange, 'cause I had been through a lot of illnesses. And he says, "I think you need to go see the doctor too." So he signed me up for all this stuff. I didn't know anything, because my husband was—he was a Navy sailor. And he didn't know anything about the war, really. He, of course, he had issues there because of all the bombing they did over overseas, you know, especially in North Vietnam. He helped with all that stuff on the ship. But he never—didn't go through what I did. That's why he kept saying, "I think you should go to a psychologist or a psychiatrist." And that's what really pushed me into where I was (laughs). My husband took me to the San Marcos Vet Center. He talked to one of the counselors. And so, I don't know if you knew the counselors there, but he's gone now. He's down in Chula Vista. And I have a new counselor. I have Randy now. So I learned a lot since I started going to the San Marcos Vet Center. But I went a couple of times a week at first, because I had so much to get out of me. And since it was a first time that I really could talk about my military service, I had a lot to say. And not knowing that I had PTSD was a surprise to me. And so now I try to help others, you know. I tell them my story, and my first day was the most dramatic day of my life in Vietnam, and I didn't even know it. I was going in there and doing that surgery. I finally told my group this morning that that was one of the things that I had thought about for many years, that I probably had those problems because I was green when I went to Vietnam. I had no idea what I was gonna go through. And it was a new life for me as a civilian, and a new life for me as a medical person, and a new life for me for the military. It was all new. And so the last 20 years I've learned a lot (smiles), not only about my military life but my social life, my volunteer life. Everything's new. And now I feel like I'm a better person for it, and I now wanna help. That's why I joined all these associations. I belong to VFW (Veterans of Foreign Wars), Vietnam Veterans (Vietnam Veterans of America), American Legion. And now I can share! I feel like I've shared a lot now, and I wouldn't have been able to do that without those associations—military organizations—that helped me grow and feel better about my military service. 00:59:32.045 --> 00:59:34.000 So now we're moving on to reflections. 00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:35.925 Yes. 00:59:35.925 --> 00:59:41.795 How has military service shaped who you are today? 00:59:41.795 --> 01:02:44.105 Well, I learned a lot. A lot about myself. And I think that maybe I was cut out for military life, but because of my dad and all his army buddies that used to come around and talk about their service. And but I didn't quite learn enough because of the atmosphere of our society. They did a really terrible disservice to the Vietnam vets. A lot of us kept our service hidden and inside. They never let us grow into the people that we are now. I still know a lot of—I've met Vietnam vets that still haven't grown in their military service. They were stunted, I think, just like me, because of our society at that time, when we came back. Having been the only woman in a lot of places, I had to grow up in that atmosphere, and I learned a lot. I learned that men need a social life as much as a woman does. And they fear the same thing we fear as a woman. It's the military service that we have to talk about. And it was an eye-opener for me when I came to join the military organizations and the military support. It was an eyeopener for me. And I realize now that I like being in the veteran community because I learn all—every day I learn something new. And we should all stick together and form our own community. And that's what I—that's what I want to do now with my life is build military communities so that we can help the military community grow. 01:02:44.105 --> 01:02:50.344 In what ways has your military service influenced your outlook on life? 01:02:50.344 --> 01:05:28.795 Oh that is my outlook now! I want to help other military retirees, active duty, give them hints about what it's all about. I've learned so much and then I also can help them in the medical field, because I have a lot of medical experience now because I read a lot, I listen a lot, I still can—I try to keep in touch with the military medical part of it. I read a lot of things about Agent Orange, but what it, how it affected our lives. I've been through so many medical problems, and I don't like taking drugs. That's why when doctors try to get me to take these new drugs, I say, "No, I don't wanna do that." I like to stick with the old fashioned ones that I learned when I first went into the medical field, because I see what those new drugs do to us military people. And I've talked to doctors that were in the military, and they tell me, because they know I was in the military, they tell me things that I shouldn't do, and I don't. I try to pass that on to all the military for medical—that have medical problems. I pass 'em on, because I think that's one of the things that I can help them with. I talk in the group—my group sessions. I tell them what I learned and they like knowing what I can help them with. And so I think that's my outlook on life now, because I've learned a lot now about the military, medical, social, and all the problems that we carry around with us (laughs). 01:05:28.795 --> 01:05:38.994 What message would you want to leave for future generations who may watch or hear this interview? 01:05:38.994 --> 01:07:40.065 Well, that if you do go into the military, join a military organization so that you can learn how you can help support the military community if you go into the service. That's what I would like to tell you. If I had known that, I probably would have tried to join some of the military organizations earlier, because I've learned a lot. You know, I thought I was always all by myself because I was the only military woman around. And even to this day, I don't see very many women that had been in the service. They don't tell you unless you've—they'll let out something, and I say, "Oh, were you in the military?" And then they tell me (laughs). So I like to hear about their experiences, and I want to tell people about my experiences. Of course, I won't go into really big details, but things that could help them be supported or to help them live their life the way they want to. I try to help them. I go to Palomar College now, making lunches for them—the vets there that are going to school. I love it. I just love talking to them. I love feeding them. And they appreciate my food when I bring it. So—and that's what I look forward to now is doing that. 01:07:40.065 --> 01:07:45.985 What do you wish more people understood about veterans? 01:07:45.985 --> 01:08:31.725 That we're all good people, just like they are in the civilian life. They do a lot for our country. And believe me, I know. I've been there, and you don't know what we sacrifice. I've sacrificed my whole life for the military, and I never got the—(Burke pauses, her eyes tear up)—I never could tell them about it because they thought we didn't know anything. (Burke nods her head.) 01:08:31.725 --> 01:08:41.225 If you were to reflect on the journey of your service, what themes or life lessons emerge? 01:08:41.225 --> 01:09:45.854 Um, well, I think that everybody should know what careers have done in the military for you. The sacrifices that they gave. They should learn about them. And they can if you talk to some of the veterans and not be afraid. And don't demean their service, because I see that a lot. Especially those that have never served—they demean our service to our country, and they forget that we sacrificed. Our service is really a sacrifice for those that have never served. 01:09:45.854 --> 01:09:47.000 So this is the last question. 01:09:47.000 --> 01:09:48.814 Okay. 01:09:48.814 --> 01:09:55.425 How did you become connected to the San Diego County community after your time in service? 01:09:55.425 --> 01:11:54.265 Well, um, I volunteer a lot. I've volunteered in my church, in my community. I go to a lot of organizations. I've given talks. And I think that when you volunteer and go to these organizations, you can learn a lot about volunteering. I just went to one and I realized that I could volunteer in every one of 'em if they needed me (laughs). Now I belong to so many organizations that I don't have enough time of myself to do it. So I volunteered first at the church, and then when I found out I could help the community more by going to the military veteran community, I could do more for the community itself—the non-military community. I could do more for them. And we have. I've done so many things out—just even on Cruisin' Grand (A regular event with classic cars cruising on Grand Avenue in Downtown Escondido). Oh gosh. I talked to the non-military people, and they were—they're surprised! They're surprised with what I've done (laughs). I said—you know, that's one thing I like about volunteering now. You give your own life to the people when you volunteer. And it's good for you too, because you get satisfaction by volunteering. 01:11:54.265 --> 01:11:59.585 Thank you again for sharing your story. It has been my honor to help preserve it. 01:11:59.585 --> 01:13:24.744 Thank you for this interview, because I've given you so much to let you know how I felt, because I want that. I want people to know the feelings that we've had in the military. Many are—you know, I find that a lot of them are afraid to talk to people that aren't in the military, but I think they should know that we are there to be in their community. We like it. We're—actually, you know, most of us in the military are volunteers (laughs). Most of us were volunteers. And we did our service as best as we could. And they—the civilian community—they benefit from it. Because we know what volunteering means (laughs). So they will benefit from the volunteers (laughs). 01:13:24.744 --> 01:13:26.034 Thank you. 01:13:26.034 --> 01:13:28.034 Yes. Well, thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the &#13 ; creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BurkeGina_BeyerJason_2025-11-13.xml BurkeGina_BeyerJason_2025-11-13.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Burke, Gina. Interview November 13th, 2025 Description An account of the resource Gina Burke served during the Vietnam War as a First Lieutenant operating room nurse in the U.S. Army Nurse Corps. Burke spoke about her family background in the Philippines, immigration to the U.S., and father’s military service. She enlisted in the Army Nurse Corps so she could complete nursing school with financial aid. Burke deployed to Vietnam and served mostly as a scrub nurse at a time when operating room nurses were in high demand. Burke reflected on the difficult working conditions and traumatic experiences that characterized her wartime service. She spoke about her social life and experience as a woman in the military. In this oral history, Burke shared how the military shaped her life and worldview. She spoke about her transition to civilian life and struggles with PTSD. Burke reflected on how counseling, community service, and veteran associations helped her feel better about her military service. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-100 Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army Nurse Corps Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Catholics Tagalog language Cebuano language Iloko language World War, 1939-1945 MacArthur, Douglas, 1880-1964 Leyte, Battle of, Philippines, 1944 Nursing education Military nursing Fort Sam Houston (Tex.) Fort Bliss (Tex.) William Beaumont Army Medical Center (El Paso, Tex.) Travis Air Force Base (Calif.) Vietnam. Army of the Republic of Vietnam. Corps, 1st United States. Army. 95th Evacuation Hospital Quonset huts Scrub nurses Medical Civic Action Programs American National Red Cross Fort Hood (Tex.) San Marcos Vet Center (Calif.) San Diego VA Medical Center (San Diego, Calif.) Agent Orange Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States Vietnam Veterans of America, Inc. American Legion Palomar College (San Marcos, Calif.) Cruisin’ Grand (Escondido, Calif.) Post-traumatic stress disorder Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-11-13 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gina Burke Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Gina Burke Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Vietnam San Marcos (Calif.) Philippines California United States Leyte (Philippines) Cebu (Philippines) Luzon (Philippines) Denver (Colo.) Escondido (Calif.) El Paso (Tex.) Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam) Da Nang (Vietnam) San Diego County (Calif.) Los Angeles (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) Chula Vista (Calif.) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Immigrant experience San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/20582a4d172be5bd1e5e48820e604c76.pdf 9893c4671e130fe239edd616a4ad1848 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Evans, Greg and Karen. Interview transcript, March 25, 2025. Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Greg Evans and Karen Evans, March 25, 2025. Greg and Karen Evans are a father-daughter team who co-create the syndicated comic strip, Luann. In this interview, they talk about their roles in creative process, the inspiration for Luann, and the evolution of the comic strip over its 40-year existence. Greg received an Honorary Doctorate of Fine Arts from CSU San Marcos in 2016. Karen Evans is also the newly elected president of the National Cartoonists Society. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Greg Evans Karen Evans Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-03-25 Subject The topic of the resource Cartooning -- technique Luann. Selections. Comic strip characters Comic books, strips, etc. Cartoonist Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) El Centro (Calif.) Merced (Calif.) Australia Colorado Spring (Co.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Greg Evans and Karen Evans Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EvansGregandKaren_FabbiJennifer_2025-03-25_transcript Art and artists Community history Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Fabbi Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Greg Evans OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EvansGreg_and_Evans_Karen_FabbiJennifer_03-25-25_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Comic strip;Luann;Cartoonist;Arts OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Evans, Greg and Karen. Interview March 25, 2025. SC027-075 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Comic strip ; Luann ; Cartoonist ; Arts Greg Evans Karen Evans Jennifer Fabbi moving image EvansGreg_and Evans_Karen_FabbiJennifer_03-25-25_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/3091fa827e01d0bf084b61797484604f.mp4 Other video 5 Introduction Oral history interview of Greg and Karen Evans, March 25th, 2025, by Jennifer Fabbi, Special Collections Librarian, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 68 Summary of the “Luann” comic strip Greg Evans summarizes the evolving story of “Luann,” how Luann has aged over time, and how the comic strip is about finding your way through life. teenager ; Peanuts ; Garfield ; sitcom ; comedy 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 172 Business model of “Luann” Greg Evans describe the business model of “Luann” including how the creative process has changed with technology. syndication ; humor ; digital ; Cintiq 0 [""] 258 Creative process of “Luann” Greg and Karen Evans discuss the creative process of working on a comic strip and how they collaborate as they work on the strip together. Karen reflects on her perspective of Greg’s creative process when she was a child. creative ; director ; editor ; childhood ; drawing ; artist ; family legacy ; writing ; collaboration ; process ; screenplay ; Lynn Johnston ; For Better or For Worse ; Mary Worth 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 639 Serious issues in “Luann" Greg and Karen Evans discuss controversial content over the years. period ; censorship ; non-controversial ; teenagers ; educational ; drug dealer ; cancer ; moderate ; benign ; Zits 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 1086 Greg's creative experience before "Luann" Greg Evans discusses his desire to be a cartoonist from an early age and other comic strip ideas he had before “Luann.” He also reflects on how his daughter, Karen, was his inspiration for “Luann.” Disney Studios ; Peanuts ; Playboy magazine ; daughter ; family ; magazines ; cartooning ; career ; heart ; ideas 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 1420 Karen’s early experience with “Luann" The comic strip is loosely based on Karen’s life. Karen talks about her experience with “Luann” and the cartoonist community at an early age. Comic strip work is very flexible, which afforded the family to travel. travel ; Charles Schultz ; Sparky ; parents ; home ; Santa Rosa 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 1770 Interaction with fans Greg and Karen Evans discuss how they have engaged their “Luann” fans over the years, including interactive content and contests. "Luann" celebrated its fortieth anniversary in March 2025, and Greg and Karen describe the fan interaction designed for this milestone. GoComics ; fanbase ; community ; comments ; San Diego Comic-Con ; National Cartoonists Society ; voting ; fashion show ; engaged ; wedding ; LuannFan ; Luanniversary 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2556 Creation of musicals Greg Evans discusses his creation of several musicals over the years. Luann the Musical ; musical ; A Boy and A Girl ; Wrinkles ; Quibbling Siblings ; production ; GarageBand 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2912 Jobs before "Luann" Greg Evans talks about teaching and one of his early jobs, running MaXwel the robot. El Centro ; Merced ; Australia ; teacher ; television news ; Colorado Springs ; MaXwel the robot ; Seaport Village ; San Diego Zoo 0 ["[\"\"]"] 3238 Future of "Luann" Greg and Karen Evans talk about how they see “Luann” playing out in the future. graphic novel ; television show ; three dimension ; intellectual property ; opportunities ; community 0 ["[\"\"]"] 3579 Luann's journey to college Karen Evans the interview discussing the development of “Luann” and other main characters in the later years. Luann’s journey to colleges was also an exhibit at the CSUSM University Library during summer 2016. college ; graduate ; high school ; teenager ; adult ; exhibit ; CSUSM University Library 0 [""] oral history Greg and Karen Evans are a father-daughter team who co-create the syndicated comic strip, Luann. In this interview, they talk about their roles in creative process, the inspiration for Luann, and the evolution of the comic strip over its 40-year existence. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:05.375 --> 00:00:36.945 Hello, this is Jennifer Fabbi, and today I am interviewing Greg and Karen Evans for the California State University San Marcos (CSUSM) University Library Oral History Program. Today is March 25th, 2025, and this interview is taking place at Greg Evans' Studio at his home in San Marcos, California. Greg received an honorary doctorate of fine arts from CSUSM in 2016, so aka "Dr. Evans." Greg and Karen, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:36.945 --> 00:00:38.524 That's an honor.--Absolutely. 00:00:38.524 --> 00:01:03.104 Okay. So let's start out with a pretty general question. The two of you are very notable narrators as the co-creators of the syndicated comic strip, "Luann." For anyone listening, who might not be as familiar with "Luann," how would you summarize the strip? 00:01:03.104 --> 00:02:10.895 (Laughter) Right. Okay. Cut that part. Well, it's really changed and evolved over forty years. It started out as a--what they call a gag-a-day strip--very much like "Peanuts" or "Garfield." In fact, I was highly inspired by "Peanuts." The whole little kids with big heads, no parents. That's how "Luann" started--jokes about being a teenage girl. And as time went on, I introduced more characters and relationships and drama and trauma. And so the strip now has sort of evolved into a bit more of a comedic, dramatic, we call it like a sitcom, comic strip kind of a deal. And "Luann" has sort of officially aged a couple of times in the strip--had a birthday once and turned sixteen--anyway, now she's nineteen, she's in college. And new characters ; some old characters have left. But it's basically about-- 00:02:10.895 --> 00:02:12.224 Finding your way in life. 00:02:12.224 --> 00:02:15.944 Yeah. Finding your way through life. Yes. 00:02:15.944 --> 00:02:38.854 Yep. And I think a sitcom is a good way to put it, where you have a kind of a main character with Luann, that there's a whole cast around her and so there are stories that tap into all these different life experiences. What am I doing, and where am I going? It's a pretty universal theme. 00:02:38.854 --> 00:02:52.625 Okay. So would you discuss the current status of Luann including each of your roles in the creative and publishing process? 00:02:52.625 --> 00:04:19.605 Luann is syndicated through Universal Press Syndicate, which is, or--Andrew McMeel Universal--they changed their name. But there are these companies and their job is to sell comic strips and advice columns and crossword puzzles and those kinds of content to newspapers all around the country and the world. And so comic strips are a big part of what they're selling to these, to these papers. That's the basic business model, and my job is to create this strip and get it on time, uh, forever. And, more recently as newspapers have struggled, we've seen a decline in print clients, but the internet has picked up, so "Luann" is online, and there's some sharing of ad revenue and that sort of thing. So that's become sort of adjunct to the business model. I draw the strip by ha--I did draw the strip by hand on paper with markers for many, many years. I have a whole stack of 'em. Then I went digital about a decade ago and do it all now on this Cintiq with a pen. And then about-- 00:04:19.605 --> 00:04:20.605 A little over ten years ago. 00:04:20.605 --> 00:04:26.125 A little over ten years ago, she came along and complicated the whole process. 00:04:26.125 --> 00:04:52.084 (Laughter) I did. I did. So that was kind of interesting because "Luann" started when I was six. So this was very much something that was a part of how I grew up and just what my dad did. And really, when you see someone working on a comic strip, the thinking part of it often just looks like sort of staring out into space or napping plays a crucial role. 00:04:52.084 --> 00:04:53.125 And then it looks like this. (mimics being asleep) 00:04:53.125 --> 00:04:54.685 Yes. 00:04:54.685 --> 00:04:56.004 That's, that's being creative. 00:04:56.004 --> 00:04:58.483 You probably--do you wanna write those ideas down? 00:04:58.483 --> 00:04:59.584 I do. 00:04:59.584 --> 00:07:15.464 And then you'd see him drawing, and he had a home studio. So mostly what I saw as far as creating "Luann" looked like drawing. And I'm not a horrible artist, but I'm not drawn to drawing. So it wasn't something, like, I grew up thinking, oh, I wanna draw Luann someday. Anyways, flash forward, and we were driving to LA talking about the strip and how it's such a legacy in and of itself, and a family legacy, and wouldn't it be amazing if we had family that could, you know, be involved and carry it forward? And it dawned on us that there's the writing, and there's the drawing, and they don't necessarily have to come from the same person. And I've always had a draw to write and writing and storytelling. So we were like, well, maybe that would be fun. We'll give it a try. And it clicked pretty quickly. And then I appreciated how much work was happening that wasn't at the drawing board because the writing is, is crucial. So over those ten some years that I've been co co-working with you, the process kind of goes, we brainstorm big story ideas, and then it's now my responsibility to get the beats of that fleshed out. We do kind of phone and email chats. We'll meet in person--I only live fifteen minutes away. So, we'll make sure it's on the right trajectory, and then I come up with the initial draft, and it very much looks like a screenplay, where it's like, Monday is M, panel one is a 1, and then like L says, da, da da da da. Because interestingly, similar to a screenplay, like you don't put in a whole lot of details about what the set's supposed to look like or what the actors are supposed to do. That's the job of the director. So I feel like he's very much the director and takes that dialogue and then translates it. He'll do some tweaks or adjustments and then translates it into the performance, the art. And shares the art back to me. His wife, my mom Betty, plays a big role in that, too, like reviewing and making sure everything came through and the right number of buttons are on the shirts and all the pants and things. (Laughing) My mom has a really good knack for catching like, those things. 00:07:15.464 --> 00:07:22.845 She'll literally do that. She's like, in panel one, you drew seven buttons, but look, in panel three, there's only six. 00:07:22.845 --> 00:07:55.975 Yep. She's the detail, she's like the editor. And usually the process goes smoothly, but there's definitely times that we get going on the process, and the characters will rebel or come up with some angle that didn't happen until a lot of times it comes out in the drawing. Or as he's drawing, there's something that can be expressed better in the art than in the words that were originally drafted out. So you end up changing the words or eliminating words, and it's kind of a fascinating process. 00:07:55.975 --> 00:08:32.465 Years ago when I first started out, Lynn Johnston, who does, "For Better or For Worse," that comic strip, she said, "I'm not a writer, I'm just a transcriber 'cause my characters speak to me." And I, at the time, I thought, eh, that sounds like a lot of mumbo jumbo. (Laughter). But it's very true. It's very true. The characters take on lives of their own, and you're writing something and suddenly, oh, Luann decided to say that or do this instead of what I thought, you know? It's a weird, interesting thing. 00:08:32.465 --> 00:09:09.384 Or a character that wasn't supposed to be in the scene shows up and suddenly you're like, wha?? Or we'll brainstorm and have the perfect idea. It's so solid, it's so good. And then I'll sit down to write it and the characters are just standing there silent. (Laughter) No, not happening, not happening today. Yeah. And you push and you prod and then eventually go, okay, maybe we have to throw this premise out. And what are we doing instead? So it's pretty fascinating, I always describe it to people, it's like writing a sitcom in haiku 'cause we have such a little space to tell this story. And I think we, we pack a lot in. 00:09:09.384 --> 00:09:17.027 And still try to be funny. It's still marketed as a humor strip. You know, it's not a "Mary Worth" kind of a thing. 00:09:17.027 --> 00:09:18.154 A heavy drama. 00:09:18.154 --> 00:09:26.000 It's not heavy drama. And we avoid politics, religion, sex-- 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:27.315 --rock and roll. All those things. 00:09:27.315 --> 00:09:44.514 Anything that's controversial, because especially these days, it's real easy to get people riled up about different things. And you don't wanna annoy your newspaper editors and readers and have them cancel your strip, so pretty benign. 00:09:44.514 --> 00:10:22.683 Well, and that, our job is, we're in the business of entertainment. So as a comic strip, in particular, I feel like we're hoping to be relatable, be intriguing, and have a lighthearted look so even when we've had serious storylines or serious conflict in a strip, we're leading towards some purposeful growth or some humor layer that we're looking at those things. Because I don't know, the world is really serious and difficult, so getting to be on this side of make the world a little better and brighter is kinda awesome. 00:10:22.683 --> 00:10:39.195 I have a follow up about this. So you talk about it being lighthearted, but over the years it's also featured some serious issues and historical moments. So would you give a few, a couple of examples of the issues you've tackled? 00:10:39.195 --> 00:12:01.284 Well, as I started doing the strip, like I said, at first it was just jokes about boys and hair and stuff. Well, after a while, I mean, how many jokes can you do about hair and boys? So, I started getting into, I realized if I'm doing a strip about teenagers, there's a certain huge world here to talk about in a responsible way. So I kind of thought, well, the strip should maybe try to be entertaining but maybe informative or inspirational in some fashion, or even educational. So fairly early on, I started doing topics along those lines. So I did one about a drug dealer that tried to get Bernice involved in his life. And probably the most significant one I did was way back in '91. Luann had her first period, and it was a two-week storyline that a lot of it was, well, a lot of Luann was right here (gestures at Karen). But I didn't want to, I didn't want to do a story about her after, you know, so I wanted to precede her on that one. Otherwise-- 00:12:01.284 --> 00:12:15.284 Yeah. "Luann," I think, was inspired often, but I always correct people it's not autobiographical or biographical to our family or my life, but that was a good thing that this storyline happened before I had my own personal experience. 00:12:15.284 --> 00:12:15.725 Yeah. 00:12:15.725 --> 00:12:18.465 Separate. Separate, but awesome. 00:12:18.465 --> 00:13:58.000 So, I approached the syndicate and said, "This is what I want to do." And they went, "No, no, no, we don't do this in a comic strip." And I said, "I think there's a way to do it." So I wrote, I rewrote, I wrote, and rewrote and sent them stuff back-and-forth it went until we finally got it. Okay. Little kids could read this and not really know maybe what they're talking about. We're not going to use the P-word or anything like that in here. However, they wanted me to do two additional weeks of just regular "Luann" strips for any newspapers that opted not to run the period strips. So I did those, and out of three hundred newspaper clients, two of 'em opted not to run the period and ran those, those other ones. If "Luann" is, you know, remembered historically for anything, it'll probably be for that series. I did get lots of email--or mail back then--from and mostly supportive. There was those who said, This does not belong on the comic page. I come to the comics for entertainment and for a laugh, and you have this. You know, How do I explain this to my ten-year-old daughter? This kind of thing. But then you get other people, school nurses who say, I get girls in here who have no idea what's going on, and they're horrified and terrified, and so thank you. This was a wonderful thing. So that was probably the biggest one we did. And then we did a thing on Mothers Against Driving Drunk is, I think it's called. 00:13:58.000 --> 00:13:58.495 I think that's, yeah. 00:13:58.495 --> 00:14:02.284 And we've done a thing for firefighters. 00:14:02.284 --> 00:14:04.105 Delta had cancer. 00:14:04.105 --> 00:14:06.475 Yeah. One of my characters had cancer. 00:14:06.475 --> 00:14:27.095 And went through treatments for that and yeah, we had a toxic--verging on an abusive--relationship that we worked through and yeah. I'm trying to think what else we've done. 00:14:27.095 --> 00:14:54.725 Are there--so thinking about this--having to create the two weeks in case someone opted out, and there were only two that opted out of three hundred. Are there any--so that feels a little like censorship to me. So is there any other time that you have wanted to do something that you have felt kind of censored in your process? 00:14:54.725 --> 00:15:42.625 Mm, not really, because I'm a pretty mild, moderate kind of a guy, so "Luann" has always been pretty, like I said, pretty benign. Although I remember early in the strip I did a joke where I used the word zits talking about, Oh, I have zits. And I sent it in, and they wrote back and said, "You know, people don't want to be eating their breakfast and their eggs and reading about zits, so can we change it to blemishes?" And I thought, what teen girl says oh my blemishes? But it was changed. Okay. Then a few years later, what comes along? A comic strip called Zits. (Laughter) 00:15:42.625 --> 00:17:29.174 Who knows, who knows? I think there's a fine line too, between feeling, and we've been, we've been really fortunate, like all the syndicates you've worked for, or worked with, have been supportive. They're--they trust, they're there to work with creators. We have an editor who reviews everything, and sometimes they'll catch things that like, you know, we've used a phrase or something that we don't know there's a larger cultural context, or like, in some places this might be misconstrued and oh, I didn't know it was used that way. So we do have editorial oversight, I guess, but very much trust in the creators and the characters and what this comic strip is. But that being said, we're mindful of who and what our audience is. Like, we are in newspapers. That's very different than a book that somebody is going to a certain section or a certain age group. If you're thinking about newspapers, they come to a home, and anybody in that home could have access to the newspaper. And a lot of the newspaper page is meant to be shared. And what's on the comics page is kind of all ages material from things that are aimed for younger readers to more adult content. So being mindful of your audience and what that experience is. And I think that's part of why for us, there have been storylines, especially as the characters have aged, like, they're nineteen-year-olds. There's quite a few things that nineteen-year-olds are interested in, curious about, or doing that we're just not gonna address because of where our material goes out and who the potential audience is. That being said, I think we've done some clever work to acknowledge that our characters are at nineteen, and there are adult things happening in their lives. And that's kind of an interesting challenge sometimes, I think. 00:17:29.174 --> 00:17:29.184 Yeah. 00:17:29.184 --> 00:17:53.884 But there are, there are, there are things going on in our characters' lives that I'm sure they would like to talk about or share, and we're just, the medium that we're in is not the right fit for that. But as far as feeling a sense of censorship, I think that zits example is the best one. (Laughter) Thankfully. Minor, thankfully. 00:17:53.884 --> 00:18:06.755 Okay, so now we're going back to the beginning. So for Greg, what was your creative experience prior to creating "Luann" and what was your inspiration for "Luann?" 00:18:06.755 --> 00:19:32.685 Well, I was born to be a cartoonist, I think. I always loved cartooning. I'd sit in my bedroom for hours on end drawing cartoons. I grew up in Burbank, not far from Disney Studios. Thought I'd get a job as an animator or something there. Later found out how good of a draftsman you need to be to be an animator. You have to be able to draw characters all positions. And I'm, I'm not that good. And then my parents took the Saturday Evening Post, and they had cartoons in there, and I loved those. And I found out somehow that wait a minute, people are doing these and getting paid to draw these cartoons? I'd like to do that too. And then discovered comics in the newspaper and "Peanuts," of course, was so huge at the time. And I thought, yeah, I could do this with my kind of limited drawing skills and my interest in writing and telling stories and jokes. This seems like a perfect fit for my particular set of talents. And so I started coming up with ideas for comic strips, probably, I don't know, when I was in college, my first ones. And I had sent single panel jokes to all the magazines. In fact, I can show you here. I sent this one. Does that show up okay? 00:19:32.685 --> 00:19:35.233 It does. I can see it. 00:19:35.233 --> 00:19:56.904 (Greg shows sketch.) This I sent to Playboy magazine when I was 11 years old. (Laughter) So it's Joe the Plumber "Pluming,"and he's getting out of his truck in the toilet seat. And there's my elaborate signature with all those blades of grass that I drew by hand. I figured I'm gonna really earn my money here. Rejected that. 00:19:56.904 --> 00:20:03.743 But I think it's important to note that he had heard some how, some way that Playboy was one of the top paying-- 00:20:03.743 --> 00:20:05.075 --Yes. They paid the most. 00:20:05.075 --> 00:20:11.914 They paid the most, which is that's true. They paid very well for their comics. So he was, you know, financially strategic there. 00:20:11.914 --> 00:20:11.924 I was, yes. 00:20:11.924 --> 00:20:14.445 How did you know that? At eleven? 00:20:14.445 --> 00:20:16.714 At eleven I wanted to make a lot of money 00:20:16.714 --> 00:20:20.275 Guessing older contacts. How would you have known that? 00:20:20.275 --> 00:20:24.914 Yeah, I don't know. Uh, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. (Laughter) 00:20:24.914 --> 00:20:26.605 Like, read it somewhere. No idea. 00:20:26.605 --> 00:22:09.315 Read it somewhere, you know, I was always looking for articles or information about cartooning as a career, you know, it's hard to find 'cause it's kind of a weird off the thing. But yeah, so I sent off the one cartoon and that, you know, then I waited for the bunnies to roll up in the, in the limo and Hugh Hefner {Laughter). Walk to my door and hand me my check for $250. But that didn't happen. But anyway, I submitted to every magazine, and then I started submitting to the syndicates--comic strips--and I probably submitted fifteen or so of those. Here's one of the very first ones I submitted. (Greg shows comic strip.) Real simple, Just a little two guys. That was gonna be my whole premise of the whole strip is just these two guys talking and saying funny things. How long would that have been interesting? (Laughter) I don't think so. I don't know. And then I had ideas that I didn't know anything about. Like, here's one, that was sort of an inner city thing. "Seamy Heights." (Greg shows comic strip.) "Seamy Heights," and it had cops and it had guns and all these kinds of things. Well, I don't know anything about being a cop or inner-city life. So I was coming, you know, out of my brain instead of my heart trying to come up with ideas that, let's see, I'm looking at the comics, and there's nothing here about clowns in the circus, so I'll do that. You know? Then Karen, at about age five or six one day was walking around all dressed up in Betty's dress and high heels and stuff. 00:22:09.315 --> 00:22:09.712 Gotten into her makeup, 00:22:09.712 --> 00:23:10.565 Got into the makeup, and I thought, hmm, maybe I should do something about a kind of a saucy little, little girl. And so I started working on that idea, and somehow she told me that she should be thirteen. I just aged her to thirteen instead of, of young. And because it's a lot more juicy material at that age. So, uh, and then boy, the ideas just came like crazy. I set her in this family based on our family. She, Luann, has a brother who's three years older, just like Karen does and all that. And now I was writing, it was coming from my heart instead of from my head. And I knew this, this is probably gonna be the one. Sent it off and it got accepted. So, I got to do what I always wanted to do my whole life and be a cartoonist. 00:23:10.565 --> 00:23:14.182 I love that. Coming from your heart instead of your head. 00:23:14.182 --> 00:23:14.483 Yeah. Yeah. 00:23:14.483 --> 00:23:40.000 Because it was related to your family. Right. So we've talked a little bit about how "Luann" is based on Karen, Karen's life, but not too closely. It's not autobiographical. Karen, what was this like? Were you knowledgeable of this? What was this like for you? And tell me a little bit about that. 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:56.934 Well, I guess when I was younger, before Luann started, my dad made a living running a robot for entertainment. So that was normal in my house. 00:23:56.934 --> 00:23:59.541 (Greg shows photo of MaXwel the robot.} There may be people around from longer ago. Who remember. 00:23:59.541 --> 00:24:00.845 Yeah. So MaXwel, the robot. 00:24:00.845 --> 00:24:05.704 MaXwel the robot, he was at, I did Seaport Village, I did the zoo, I did all kinds of stuff. 00:24:05.704 --> 00:26:33.815 So dad would stand in the crowd with a, with a little hidden microphone that he had, then a bag with the controls. So he'd stand in the crowd and control this robot, and the robot would do like, crowd interactions and had some music it could play and some tricks with--like, its hat would spin and jokes and this whole thing. So that was normal in my young childhood. And then it transitioned, and there were a few years that they overlapped so he was running the robot and doing a comic strip. So then it transitioned right about the time that I would've started school, that he was now staying home and doing a comic strip. So I guess my point is I didn't have this experience, where I could compare it to what most kids' dads might have been doing, or like a typical nine-to-five sort of situation. So for a long time it just seemed normal. Now that being said, I was aware that this is something where my friends knew about it, and their families read it, and we got to do interesting things relating to meeting other cartoonists. We did a trip later, when I was like nine. We did a motor home trip traveling around, and we visited, like Jim Davis and we Sparky--so Charles Schultz--lived in Santa Rosa and had an ice skating rink that's still there and put on these amazing holiday like escapades on ice. And so many years that was a Christmas tradition. We'd go up because dad had become friends with Sparky. So like, we're at a table having dinner with Sparky. I got my first pair of roller blades from Sparky because his daughter had been on the cusp, like the cutting edge of roller blades, and they were selling them there. Like you kind of realize that's, that's special. But it wasn't until maybe later in my teen years that I had a little more perspective on what, like, how unusual this is as just a career, and that the lifestyle it afforded us as a family to be able to have someone who was there working from home. Like I always had a parent who could be home because that's where he worked. And that it was flexible enough that we were able to do some, like, travel things and you didn't have to, you know, navigate the time off with your coworkers and it's such a headache. So it wasn't until I was older that I really understood how rare and unique and, uh, special it is. I think-- 00:26:33.815 --> 00:26:45.035 --Just, I think it, it's a rare job in, in the sense that you, I can bank work so I can really work hard and bank that stuff. Get it ahead, send it. 00:26:45.035 --> 00:26:47.785 How far in advance do they require that you send it then? 00:26:47.785 --> 00:26:48.714 Six weeks. 00:26:48.714 --> 00:26:49.464 Oh, okay. 00:26:49.464 --> 00:26:57.224 Six weeks. But when we took that motor home trip, I worked ahead a whole three months, sent it off and-- 00:26:57.224 --> 00:26:57.825 Off you go. 00:26:57.825 --> 00:27:04.424 Off we go. And I don't, I can't think of many other jobs where you can, you know, where you can do that. 00:27:04.424 --> 00:27:39.000 And without having to be like, let me get permission. This is a special, special circumstance. I mean, all the syndicate just needs 365 days of work to put out. And, how you get it done. I mean, I know there are some other cartoonists that will do, we know one that he does six months of the year. He writes a whole year and draws a whole year of his material. And so that the other six months he can do any other travel or work projects or creative things he wants. Some people are very seat of the pants and others are, they're banking, and they have years of work in advance. It's really interesting. 00:27:39.000 --> 00:28:07.835 Yeah, some of 'em will do, instead of one strip a day, they'll do two. So in no time they're way ahead. And then there's other cartoonists, who don't get inspiration until the FedEx truck is pulling up to their door. (Laughter) And then there's others like Garry Trudeau who does "Doonesbury." So his is very topical and timely. So, he's right on deadline, everything is Fedexed, overnighted, and that kind of thing. 00:28:07.835 --> 00:29:05.065 So, yeah, now I--and even as I got older and realized this was rare and special--it wasn't until I started working with him that I understand not only how it's rare and special, but what just unique storytelling and a unique model as a creative it is. I'm so grateful for as long as we can hold onto the syndication model because we have, there's a team and their job is to handle distribution and promotion and sales. And our job is purely creative. And that's increasingly rare as a creative person. You've gotta have, you know, you're out there hustling and hustling or self-publishing or trying to hold people's attention and to have a, a creative outlet where we still do have, there are a lot of our fans are still getting newspapers, and it's our creative materials delivered literally to their doorstep every single day. 00:29:05.065 --> 00:29:07.825 And then put into the bird cage on the bottom. 00:29:07.825 --> 00:29:17.984 Yes. I was gonna say we're very humbled, but yeah, we are, we're, we're literally humbled as well. So yeah. That's pretty awesome. 00:29:17.984 --> 00:29:28.634 So speaking of your fans, you have quite an active fan base and I am wondering how you interact with your fans. 00:29:28.634 --> 00:30:58.526 Yeah, that has changed a lot. And when did GoComics launch, fifteen years ago? It's longer than we think. So GoComics is the website where "Luann" shows up online, and that is, our syndicate still does the newspaper side, but they had the forethought to go, this is, we need a, a backup plan. So they have the largest online presence for comics. and that was really interesting because when you're in the paper, you would get letters, but outside of that, you don't know if your fans are even reading it or what they think. But now there's an online comments section, and we don't spend a whole lot of time there 'cause it'll make you crazy trying to navigate people. But we have a very, very passionate fan base, and it's kind of neat to go in and see how people respond, what they latch onto, what they completely misunderstood, which is always really curious, I guess. I mean, we have some fans on there that are like, I've been reading this from day one and I've--they've read the whole archive--digital archive--if it's available. I've read it multiple times through. And their version of Bernice, the main character, is just like, how they perceive her based on their life experiences and their interpretation is so different from how we're meaning her to be portrayed. So it's kind of-- 00:30:58.526 --> 00:31:27.724 --And what's really fun about these online comment community is, you know, previously yes, I'd get mail from here, there, and everywhere, but the readers didn't interact in any way. Now these readers, they're, they're involved not just with the strip, but with each other. And so you'll see little birthday greetings or oh, sorry about your dog, or, you know, those kinds of things. Oh, hey, here's a new recipe. You know, so it's not always about, just about "Luann." So. 00:31:27.724 --> 00:31:32.585 It's, it's a real community. It's a real community. They watch out for each other and-- 00:31:32.585 --> 00:31:49.825 -- Yeah. Yeah. And they, they tend to push down the trolls and the, and the negative kinds of people and keep them, because I don't think there's anybody at the syndicate that's reading every comment and pulling things out. 00:31:49.825 --> 00:33:20.805 No, they have like a moderation system, but you kinda' have to flag somebody, and then they'll come in to intervene. But we have a very sort of, somehow our commenters, and I think it's partially because of, like we described the tone of what the strip is, they want it to be a friendly community, and while they're open to everybody having different opinions, they don't appreciate it when people are being particularly negative or harsh or, you know, attacking each other. So it's kind of, it's kind of inspiring. So we have that going on. And then we've been going to Comic-Con for a number of years. Dad's been going to San Diego Comic-Con for decades, and I started going again with him. And so we have fans that always find us every year at Comic-Con. We're at the National Cartoonists Society booth, so it's like a little bit of a treasure hunt to find us, because we don't have a "Luann" booth that you could look up in the directory. But that's always really fun to see some of our longtime fans that have become friends and how have you been and what have you been up to the last year? And then we have people miraculously who wander through Comic-Con and find us and are fans and some that didn't know about us that become fans. And that's, that's pretty special 'cause you're interacting live with people. So we enjoy that. And then a few years back, well, let's see, we started some fan interactions. So the first one was the fashion show. Is there anything before that? 00:33:20.805 --> 00:33:23.881 Or voting? I think it was voting. 00:33:23.881 --> 00:33:24.843 Oh, right. 00:33:24.843 --> 00:33:25.795 So Luann was-- 00:33:25.795 --> 00:33:27.404 twenty-eight years ago 00:33:27.404 --> 00:33:42.809 --gonna go to the prom or something. And Gunther wants to take her, but she wants to go with Aaron Hill. Which one should she pick? Or how should it, I forgot what the exact question was. But we posed this question to the readers in the newspaper. So they had to send a postcard-- 00:33:42.809 --> 00:33:47.164 --Like choose your own adventure? 00:33:47.164 --> 00:33:58.954 Yeah. And then, and mail it in. And then six weeks later there were results, and here's how it went and showed the results. 00:33:58.954 --> 00:34:15.425 Yeah. And a lot of people participated. So all the postcards got sent, I think sent to the syndicate, but it wasn't like one or two. So, you know, hundreds of people sent in votes of Gunther or Aaron, and the storyline proceeded according to their winning votes. 00:34:15.425 --> 00:35:03.232 And then the fashion show--that was a huge thing. I had this idea of let's do a fashion show but involve readers in some fashion, in some way. So it was, there was a thing in the strip that said there's gonna be a "Luann" fashion show if you'd like to submit drawings of the characters, and it doesn't have to be the characters, but let's see your fashions. You know, oh my gosh, we got sixty thousand--we got some incredible number of drawings. Some people, you know, some, it was a crayon thing on a napkin, but others was like, somebody sent patterns that you would put and cut, you know, cut the fabric from to make the thing. And, uh, it was, it was just amazing. 00:35:03.232 --> 00:35:04.039 It was awesome. 00:35:04.039 --> 00:35:04.832 It was just amazing. 00:35:04.832 --> 00:35:05.019 This was in like-- 00:35:05.019 --> 00:35:08.905 Then we had the fashion show in the strip, and we were able to show a whole bunch of these drawings. 00:35:08.905 --> 00:35:12.244 --ninety-four or ninety-five, maybe. 00:35:12.244 --> 00:35:12.938 The year? 00:35:12.938 --> 00:35:13.492 Yeah. 00:35:13.492 --> 00:35:14.324 Yeah, I think so. 00:35:14.324 --> 00:35:54.387 But the point being, it wasn't something you could email in or digitally upload. So this was all physically mailed. And I remember, again, it was sent to the syndicate and then they shipped it and sitting in the living room with just a sea of submissions and so amazing to see what people were up to. Little notes they'd include and how they interpreted characters, those who had, you know, drawn a Luann or Crystal or whomever it was, and address them in these fashions. So it was really cool. And then those fashions, he kind of translated that more directly into the strip. So-- 00:35:54.387 --> 00:35:55.605 How did you choose? 00:35:55.605 --> 00:35:56.715 I don't know how you chose it. 00:35:56.715 --> 00:36:54.525 Yeah, I don't know. That was tough. I mean, some of the stuff was inappropriate. Of course, those, but yeah, no, there was a lot of good stuff, and I wanted to show as much as I could. So I talked to the syndicate, and I said, "Is there a way that we can divide the country, all my clients into like a quadrant? So all the newspaper clients up here where submissions came from, and those winners they'll get that in their paper?" So I did four different versions of this two-week presentation of this thing. And so it was able--the great result of that was some kid would get notified that your, your thing is in the paper. And oh my gosh, they'd do a big story, a local story about the local kid who made it into "Luann." It was really cool. 00:36:54.525 --> 00:36:55.313 It was super cool. 00:36:55.313 --> 00:36:56.339 It was a lot of fun. 00:36:56.339 --> 00:36:57.108 Yeah, it was super cool. 00:36:57.108 --> 00:36:58.271 Yeah. That was, that was a huge-- 00:36:58.271 --> 00:37:01.815 It makes me wonder now when we look at GoComics, so it has the archive on there, but it only has one-- 00:37:01.815 --> 00:37:04.367 It would only have one of those. 00:37:04.367 --> 00:37:05.789 One of those. I wonder which one of those they chose. 00:37:05.789 --> 00:37:08.635 Good question. I, yeah. I don't know. 00:37:08.635 --> 00:37:10.914 Like, gotta dig up the other three. 00:37:10.914 --> 00:37:12.585 Yeah. 00:37:12.585 --> 00:37:21.164 So the fashion show was a success and then many years later, Brad and Toni would've been the next one, right? 00:37:21.164 --> 00:37:22.184 I think so. 00:37:22.184 --> 00:40:22.695 So Brad and Toni--Luann's brother, Brad, and his girlfriend Toni--dramatic dating story, evolution of Brad as a human being. They're getting ready, they get engaged, and fans were so into the story of this couple and their life and Brad's growth from this kind of like pointless slob to a firefighter. And he had all this purpose. And so we decided we wanted to do some wedding stuff. So we built out luannefan.com. That's how it got started, as a place for us to build these wedding-related activities. So we posted photo albums, which were collections of chapters in their dating story 'cause they dated seven, eight years in the strip. So you could go back and revisit from the beginning and reread these strips collected together. We had a wedding wishes, so people could send in their wedding wishes and good thoughts for Brad and Toni. And people wrote these lovely, you know, advice. And it's been so inspiring watching you as a couple. I mean, these people are so real to us and to our, to our readers. It was just sweet. As firefighters, we had them, instead of gifts you could choose, you know, sort of a gift registry. You could donate to a firefighters fund. And people did do that. And then the big thing was a wedding dress competition. So, similar to the fashion show, submit your designs, but this time we had digital technology so people could upload their designs and then upvote what--so it wasn't us choosing-- up vote, up vote, up vote. And that was pretty neat. I think we ended up with like forty-six thousand votes on wedding dresses and six hundred some dress designs uploaded. And a lot of neat participation. And then the winning dress design was translated. And that's what Toni wore in the wedding with a little, you know, call out and congratulations. So that was really cool. So we have a lot of fan interaction. And then we revived the Luann Fan a few years back and have started a monthly newsletter that we send out where we're sharing some, you know, little behind the scenes stories and tips--not tips--tidbits about, you know, how the current storyline came to be or oddball stuff from our lives. Just as a way to engage with fans. So that's been awesome. We just did our fortieth anniversary and big positive, happy wishes from fans and people wanting to join the newsletter and people sending great, beautiful, sweet comments on online. Very lucky to have a wonderful fan base. 00:40:22.695 --> 00:40:23.835 Forty years. 00:40:23.835 --> 00:40:25.005 Yeah. Forty years. 00:40:25.005 --> 00:40:32.715 I got a chance to look at all of your stuff from, from the day, from the Sunday. The video that you did and-- 00:40:32.715 --> 00:40:34.125 Yeah. 00:40:34.125 --> 00:40:35.864 It's really cool. The Luanniversary. 00:40:35.864 --> 00:40:36.958 The Luanniversary. 00:40:36.958 --> 00:40:37.621 Yeah. 00:40:37.621 --> 00:40:40.594 The one good thing about naming her Luann. 00:40:40.594 --> 00:40:40.605 Yeah. 00:40:40.605 --> 00:40:53.414 It translates to LuannFan is catchy and Luanniversary is perfect. Otherwise a lot of people, it's a hard name to remember or spell correctly. Too many spelling variants. 00:40:53.414 --> 00:41:11.914 Right. That one n gets me every time. (Laughter) Now I remember. Okay. I'm gonna switch gears a little bit. So Greg, you have a long history with CSU San Marcos and can you tell us about your CSUSM connections? 00:41:11.914 --> 00:41:15.284 Connections with San Marcos? 00:41:15.284 --> 00:41:16.244 With CSUSM. 00:41:16.244 --> 00:43:49.936 Oh, with, with university. Yeah. Well, let's see. We moved here in 1980, and that's five years before the strip started. And I ran the robot. And then got the strip going. And a couple of, a couple of interesting things, too, about San Marcos. People have asked me, where'd the name Luann come from? I didn't have a name for this character. I just knew I wanted something kind of not, she wasn't a Tiffany, you know. And I was driving around one day and there was a construction company that used to be in San Marcos called Louetto Construction. And they had their truck sitting out somewhere. Lou, I like the Lou part, not the etto. Uh, so Luann and then Aaron Hill, Luann's heartthrob, where we lived before we lived here, we lived sort of on a hill. And our son, Gary, his best friend lived on the adjacent hill. And his name was Aaron. Aaron Hill. I mean, how high two As, and then a hill. So that's the ultimate, the ultimate thing. Then I don't remember how I met Meryl Goldberg exactly, I can't recall. But she's the one who said, "You know, you should write a Luann musical." I said, "I should?" Okay. Well, when I was a kid, I took piano for about a year-and-a-half and hated it and quit. And I wish I hadn't, but I, you know, I can kind of find notes and chords a little bit. So I thought, well, I don't know, maybe I could write some songs, and I could certainly write a script. I mean, it's what I do anyway. So I took a bunch of actual "Luann" gags and situations from the strip and sort of wove 'em together into "Scenes in a Teen's Life" idea for a musical. And it was put on by Rancho Buena Vista High School, over at the California Center for the Arts. We did it there and turned out really nicely. So yeah, that was, I think, sort of my start with the relationship there. And then, I think it's when the art building opened. Yeah, the art building had opened-- 00:43:49.936 --> 00:43:50.815 --the Arts Council? 00:43:50.815 --> 00:44:02.014 and I think that's where maybe I met Meryl there at that. So anyway, kind of got involved with all of that. And then the, you know, the fundraisers and-- 00:44:02.014 --> 00:44:09.114 I think some of it, I would imagine, overlaps with mom's connections in San Marcos. 00:44:09.114 --> 00:44:09.795 The university? 00:44:09.795 --> 00:44:13.255 Is that how some of that would overlap? 00:44:13.255 --> 00:44:30.614 I think they're a little bit separate. My wife Betty was on the city council and ran for mayor. And then she was on the Vallecitos Board, uh, Water District Board. So we've had deep connections here in the city. 00:44:30.614 --> 00:44:41.164 I was just thinking if she would've been part of connections with Cal State because I know she was as a city council person like involved in why the university got to be here and-- 00:44:41.164 --> 00:44:55.235 Yeah, I don't know, a little. She certainly was there when the city hall was built. Mom was part of that whole thing, so, yeah. 00:44:55.235 --> 00:45:04.594 What about, so you mentioned that you had written the "Luann" musical, "Luann the Musical." You have written some other plays too, right? 00:45:04.594 --> 00:46:02.000 Yeah. So that one was kind of fun to do. I mean, I didn't realize that nobody writes a musical. But, you know, I have my little keyboard, and I use a program called Garage Band. So you can layer in sounds and drum lines and this basic stuff, and I write these little songs, and then I hire a guy to do the arranging so that a band, you know, can play these things. So yeah. I wrote a "Luann" show, and then I wrote one called "Wrinkles" about getting old, and it premiered, I think at the Lawrence Welk Theater. Appropriate. "A Boy and a Girl," about two infants born on the same day. And then their relationship as they grow older. And Sibling, uh-- 00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:03.364 "Quibbling Siblings." 00:46:03.364 --> 00:46:09.045 "Quibbling Siblings," which is about a brother and a sister who do nothing but argue all the time. 00:46:09.045 --> 00:46:10.105 Okay. 00:46:10.105 --> 00:46:20.315 And those have all been put on locally. And a few places have done the "Luann," it's available beyond just like the local networks. And so there are places that have put on-- 00:46:20.315 --> 00:46:40.045 Yeah, "Luann" got picked up by a publisher, and it's out there, and it's probably been done, I don't know, twenty times over the years. "Wrinkles" is also with a publisher, but it's never been, she never managed to get it produced. And the other two are sitting on my computer. 00:46:40.045 --> 00:46:43.485 I did get to see "A Boy and a Girl"--at the Patio? 00:46:43.485 --> 00:46:44.071 Yes. 00:46:44.071 --> 00:46:46.125 Oh, at Patio. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:46:46.125 --> 00:46:49.295 I want to say maybe it was 2019. It was right before Covid. 00:46:49.295 --> 00:47:09.324 Right before Covid. Our scale for everything--before or after Covid. Yeah. "A Boy and a Girl" was fun 'cause that one, we got to--so before Dad wrote a musical, there was a "Luann" musical created by someone else in early nineties? Late eighties? 00:47:09.324 --> 00:47:10.525 The late eighties, probably. 00:47:10.525 --> 00:48:09.954 Late eighties. And the young woman who played Luann locally in the eighties grew up to be a very successful actress and performer here locally. And, came on and directed and developed "A Boy and a Girl." So that was kind of a cool roundabout thing. Like this person who, it's not like there was some deep connection back from the eighties, but over time, turns out, here's Bets showing up in our lives. Back again. And helping develop "A Boy and a Girl." And that got staged in the garage here for the first production. You gotta' figure out all the staging and how do you block this and what do we do and let's rehearse it. 'Cause it's, that was pretty cool. I thought that was cool. I got to stage direct, so I learned what that means. And I was like, this is a lot of work. (Laughter) 00:48:09.954 --> 00:48:17.644 Well you think writing a comic strip is hard. Try writing a good musical and it's really hard. 00:48:17.644 --> 00:48:30.284 I have to go back to the robot and ask about the robot. How did that come about? Did you build the robot? Did you, how did that come about? And you said that you donated it to CSUSM? 00:48:30.284 --> 00:50:31.284 Yes, I did. Okay. Yes. When my wife and I were both, went to school and got degrees to be school teachers. So, my first job was out in El Centro. I was a school teacher, and Betty was in Merced. She was a school teacher. We got married, we were in El Centro. I think it was Betty who saw a notice about Australia, shortage of teachers down there. They're getting Americans to come down and teach. We signed up, We got accepted, and Betty and I taught in Australia for two years. Came home. Now what? And I found out I'm not a good teacher. I didn't really enjoy it. Betty's awesome. I'm not that good. what should I do? Well, we ended up, for some reason in Colorado Springs, we ended up there. Oh, I know. There was a possible teaching job for me there, which didn't pan out. Oh-oh, now what? Well then there was an opening at a local TV station for a part-time, split-shift job running the camera for the evening news. So I would go in, yeah. So I would go in and stand at the camera with the headphones on for half an hour at five o'clock for that one. And then go home and then come back for the nine o'clock, do the same thing, and aim the camera and stand there and then go home. And that's what I did there. The station that I worked for, for some reason, decided to buy a robot. It was built by a guy there locally, and this is what he did. He sold these little R2-D2 kind of robots 'cause Star Wars was huge. So the station bought one, and they needed someone to run this thing. Because it is like a RC car, a little radio-controlled thing. And I had a van and they said, "Greg, why don't you go ahead and run this robot around?" 00:50:31.284 --> 00:50:33.083 It was like a promotional idea. 00:50:33.083 --> 00:53:28.000 It was a promotional thing. Yeah. So, I would go out with this little robot and show up at different events, you know, to promote the station. That's what I did. And I found out, oh, I'm pretty good at this. I'm not an actor, I'm not a performer, I'm not a comedian, but put me behind the scenes, and I can do okay. So standing in the crowd with a little microphone and saying funny stuff, and it's coming out over there, and the robot is moving and interacting with the crowd. That was perfect for my nature. That suited me very well. And I did a good job at it. And we had been wanting to come back to California. We really missed--we were--Betty and I were both natives, and we had the kids in Colorado Springs and we were, let's go. So packed up, bought a robot of our own from this guy, and landed here in San Diego and thought, okay, here we go. What do I do? So I started just going to the local malls, and I'd go around with this robot and bit by bit, I got contracts to come back and do things and do that. And so I was at Seaport Village every weekend for years, and I was at the San Diego Zoo entertaining the lines of people, while they were waiting to go in. I did the California State Fair. I did a lot of corporate events and parties and all just tons of stuff. I was really busy to the point where I, I bought a second robot thinking I could franchise this thing and find someone, you know, to run the other (robot). Well, that's hard. You need someone who's basically unemployed because your gigs come up all the time, and who has a van and who has a strong back and could lift this robot? So the franchise idea didn't go anywhere. I just always wanted to be a cartoonist, anyway. Thank goodness that got going. Yeah. Then I retired MaXwel, and Meryl said--you know--Meryl, she's always got an idea. "Well, you know, maybe you could donate it to the University. We could find someone who would run it and he would represent the ARTES program. And so he would go to schools and promote art and maybe we have an assistant who goes with him and together they're doing"--you know, she had all these ideas, and they got a van. And I made a wrap to go on this van that had MaXwel and then all this kind of artsy sort of things all over the van. And I had lost track of whatever became of that program. I don't know. Yeah. So that Max, I have two robots. That MaXwel is, I don't know where, and the other one is in our shed-- 00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:29.000 You still have-- 00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:31.000 in a box. Ready to go.. 00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:33.784 Maybe that's what I should be learning to do. 00:53:33.784 --> 00:53:35.074 You should. Yeah. 00:53:35.074 --> 00:53:36.744 I'll follow your career. But in reverse. 00:53:36.744 --> 00:53:39.644 Can you grow a beard? It is helpful to have the beard. 00:53:39.644 --> 00:53:44.000 Beard is helpful. I'll look into that. There's some sort of injections, I'm sure. 00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:48.715 Something. Hormones (Laughter) 00:53:48.715 --> 00:53:57.945 Okay. Well after forty years of blood, sweat, and tears, what is the future of "Luann?" 00:53:57.945 --> 00:54:00.204 Future of Luann? 00:54:00.204 --> 00:54:06.704 Mmm. 00:54:06.704 --> 00:54:10.835 Keep going. That's it. That's it. I don't know. We're-- 00:54:10.835 --> 00:54:12.474 You have a huge family legacy. 00:54:12.474 --> 00:54:25.425 Yeah. We love what we do. He loves what he does. It's all he ever wanted to do, and he gets to do it. And I think working together has kept it interesting. 00:54:25.425 --> 00:54:46.945 Yeah. At this point I thought I'd be phoning it in, you know, but it's engaging and fun more than ever because of working together. And as long as newspapers survive or the internet can keep things going, and there's an income to be made, I'll keep doing it until I keel over. 00:54:46.945 --> 00:55:39.750 Yeah. (Greg mimics coughing) Oh, stop it! (Laughter) So that's the idea. And then, who knows? Like we've toyed with various spinoff or add-on ideas with, you know, when graphic novels came onto the scene, there was a lot of, you know, we should do a "Luann" graphic novel. Or, you know, Brad and Toni should spin off into their own comic strip, or more than once, there's been efforts and some traction on a "Luann" TV show of some kind. But that relies on Hollywood, which is the most unreliable planet on the planet. And, we've talked about ideas for, you know, extra material or content that our really hardcore fans would genuinely feel excited to, you know, subscribe to or purchase things or, I don't know if you wanna show them Puddles. (Gestures to plastic model of the "Luann" dog, Puddles) This is a random, there's a group here in North County of cartoonist-type creative people that get together just for fun. And one of the gentlemen is a very talented sculptor. He comes from the automotive industry, and in his retirement, was kind of looking for a new way to do something interesting and creative and decided let's do a "Luann" thing. And this is a 3D-printed project that six months, seven months? 00:55:39.750 --> 00:56:16.000 Yeah. 00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:38.885 Been such a cool thing watching, watching Dad get to like try to envision these characters in three dimensions and work with Tony on how do you translate the back of Luann's head, or what's the scale of all of this when, you know? When you're drawing it, it stays a pretty consistent scale, but actually mathematically to set-- 00:56:38.885 --> 00:56:52.764 You can, when you're drawing, you know, you can, I can cheat, but what dog from the back has their eyeballs sticking up like that? (Laughter) No. Where's the eyelids? 00:56:52.764 --> 00:56:57.164 So who knows? Who knows what we'll-- 00:56:57.164 --> 00:57:35.224 "Luann" has never been a real licensable character or intellectual property as far as T-shirts or clothing or stuff like that. You know, not, it's not a "Peanuts," "Garfield" kind of a cute thing that you can dress up or stuff like that. So we've never really had anything like that. Books for a while, and then they're not really doing books much anymore of comic strip collections. So that's sort of gone to the side. So, really just focusing on doing the best strip we can do every single day 'cause we owe it to the readers. 00:57:35.224 --> 00:57:36.045 That's true. 00:57:36.045 --> 00:57:37.804 Yeah. That's our job. 00:57:37.804 --> 00:57:39.465 Yep. 00:57:39.465 --> 00:57:50.594 Is there anything else that you would like to cover in today's interview? Anything that we missed? 00:57:50.594 --> 00:58:31.994 I just have to say that for such a strange career, it has opened doors and opportunities beyond imagination. Just creative people that we've met, or connections that we've been able to make, opportunities because we have flexibility. As a kid growing up, I have such an appreciation now the longer I go into my adult life, that I had parents, who were able to very bravely pursue kind of risky things like robots and cartooning, but stuck with it and made it work. And-- 00:58:31.994 --> 00:58:41.784 Yeah. My parents were like, hold on, five years of college to be a teacher, and now you're gonna go be a--run a robot? 00:58:41.784 --> 00:58:43.304 What? 00:58:43.304 --> 00:58:45.505 What? Gregory what are you thinking? 00:58:45.505 --> 00:59:05.385 Yeah. And then I think the community, just the cartooning community, our fan community, the creative community, and then the community that you guys, in particular, having been here and raised a family here, built with San Marcos as a home base. Like you've said, all of "Luann" has come from San Marcos. 00:59:05.385 --> 00:59:26.364 Yeah. Yeah, it has. That's and what a great place to live, you know, I mean, doing this job that you can live any anywhere. And so why not pick a gorgeous place to live? And I forgot to mention the exhibit at, at the library, too, the "Luann" exhibit. 00:59:26.364 --> 00:59:32.144 I had a question about it, but I--You didn't always know that Luann would go to college. 00:59:32.144 --> 00:59:34.000 That's true. 00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:38.505 Right, and so how, "how did that come to be?" was my question. 00:59:38.505 --> 01:01:40.824 How did Luann come to college? Well, so she started out at thirteen, and it was his decision to turn her sixteen. And I think that was because she had stopped being thirteen over--I wrote this up, I looked it up at some point. I feel like she was thirteen for like thirteen years. And after that it was kinda like, she's outgrown this and at sixteen, she could start to drive. So that might open up some new opportunities. So she was sixteen for another dozen some years. And right at the time that I came in, my version of the story, and then you can tell your version of the story, but my version of the story is when I started working, you were feeling kind of burned out. Like you'd been telling teen high school drama stories for at that point, you know, twenty-four years or whatever. And just were kinda' what else do we do with it? And these characters are, we've done all the dynamics over and over in different ways. And that was part of where the conversation of, Well, what if we bump them to college? What would that look like, and how would we do it? And that was an interesting decision in the sense that "Luann" doesn't move in any sort of structured like time frame. It's not this many years of "Luann" is equal to this many human real life years. But we recognized when we decided to graduate her that her senior year had to move in real time. Like you can't just sort of weirdly linger in your senior year indefinitely and be like, oh, my final prom again. So that was kind of, that was kind of crazy. That's the only time "Luann" has really moved in real time is that one year of senior year of high school. And then we had to do a lot of specific planning for what--we only have 365 days of comics. So what core events happened in that senior year? So that was my version of it. 01:01:40.824 --> 01:01:58.284 And what do we do with the characters? Because they had all been in this nice, neat package at this school. Right. The teachers, Mr. Fogarty, everybody's right there. Well, are they all gonna' graduate and go to the very same college? Wouldn't that be-- 01:01:58.284 --> 01:01:58.695 Wouldn't that be great? 01:01:58.695 --> 01:02:14.244 A coincidence? Well, that's not gonna happen. Of course not. So some went to the junior college like Luann did, some went to the university, and about five characters sort of just left the strip and-- 01:02:14.244 --> 01:02:15.813 They moved on with their lives, really. 01:02:15.813 --> 01:02:30.474 Yeah. And new characters came in. So it was a big adjustment. So now we have different universes in the strip that are happening at the same time, but don't maybe necessarily overlap. So it's a little more of a challenge, I think. 01:02:30.474 --> 01:02:31.268 Yeah. 01:02:31.268 --> 01:02:31.664 To write. 01:02:31.664 --> 01:03:56.000 And that's where you think sometimes I feel like, when I came along. I am, I tend to think much more complex than what fits into a comic strip. So I have to work hard to dial things down. But yeah, moving them out into college and making hard decisions--like the core of "Luann" for so many years was Luann and her two best friends with Bernice and Delta. But when we started thinking about it, going back to characters telling you what's gonna' happen to them, there was no way--Delta was so driven and global and passionate. We just couldn't see her staying at her hometown university. And so she's, she's currently off at Howard doing amazing things, I'm sure. But it was such a shocking thing to think about splitting up these three core characters and yeah. Yeah. Like how do you, how do we, what? But that Delta just genuinely wasn't going to be sticking around town. So she's out, maybe she'll show up someday and tell us what she's been doing. But awesome things, I'm sure. 01:03:56.000 --> 01:04:05.224 And just for those listening, we're referring to an exhibit that was done at the CSUSM Library called "Luann Goes to College" (actually titled "Luann's Journey to College). 01:04:05.224 --> 01:05:30.014 Yes. So that was a cool experience, 'cause it was neat to, we put together strips that kind of show this evolution of "Luann" going from my high school self preparing and going into college and to have that showcased on a university campus I thought was particularly special because even if you're a transfer student, that's just a fresh experience for you. And being a freshman in particular is such a strange stage in life of being like, I'm an adult and I'm out doing my thing, but I don't feel fully like an adult. And I think nineteen--eighteen and nineteen--nineteen is the most interesting to me because you are still a teen. You're nineteen, you're a teenager, but you're eighteen-nineteen, like you're an adult. You've kind of gone out on your own, but you're not fully figuring it all out by nineteen for most people. And then you haven't hit the all-important twenty-one. So your social life is still, you can't access anything that's twenty-one and up, whether you choose to drink or not. But just there's, there's activities that aren't available to you. So this is like weird little limbo land. Being like a teen-adult. So yeah, that was a neat exhibit to put together. 01:05:30.014 --> 01:05:30.585 Well. 01:05:30.585 --> 01:05:40.655 Yeah, we've always had a great relationship with the university, and we really appreciate it. Yeah. And it's really an honor to be asked to be part of this oral history. 01:05:40.655 --> 01:05:53.744 Well I just wan to thank you so much today for sharing your creativity, your passion, your relationship. I think it's really beautiful the way that you two work together and collaborate. 01:05:53.744 --> 01:05:58.784 Our matching shirts. Yep. Mom got us these for Christmas, so we thought it would be good to wear them today. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=EvansGreg_and_Evans_Karen_FabbiJennifer_03-25-25_access.xml EvansGreg_and Evans_Karen_FabbiJennifer_03-25-25_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Evans, Greg and Karen. Interview March 25, 2025. Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Greg Evans and Karen Evans, March 25, 2025. Greg and Karen Evans are a father-daughter team who co-create the syndicated comic strip, Luann. In this interview, they talk about their roles in creative process, the inspiration for Luann, and the evolution of the comic strip over its 40-year existence. Greg received an Honorary Doctorate of Fine Arts from CSU San Marcos in 2016. Karen Evans is also the newly elected president of the National Cartoonists Society. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-075 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-03-25 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Greg Evans and Karen Evans Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Fabbi Subject The topic of the resource Cartooning -- Technique Comic strip characters Luann. 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Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Ho Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hac Tran OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Chicago OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Tran, Hac. Interview April 25, 2023. SC027-107 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. csusm Chicago Vietnam immigration community Vietnamese American identity Hac Tran Jennifer Ho moving image TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5b8ef81b80a4c8239d06fed2bf8486bf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history of Hac Tran on April 25, 2023, by Jennifer Ho. 0 26 Childhood and Vietnamese community Hac talks about his childhood in Chicago and his early connection to the Vietnamese American community. He speaks of his parents’ involvement in the community and shares their backgrounds and migration stories. Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Argyle ; Uptown ; Chicago ; diaspora ; Tet ; Nam Dinh ; Hanoi ; Hai Duong ; Hai Phong ; French colonialism ; Da Lat ; Saigon ; Wake Island ; Trinity Christian College ; Palos Heights ; Milwaukee ; Chinatown ; Oak Park ; Mimosa Café 0 629 Restaurant life Hac talks about Mimosa Café, the restaurant his parents opened in the 1980s, and shares his memories there. He also talks about his recent visit to the restaurant, and reflects on his parents motivation to open the restaurant. Red hots ; Wheaton North High School ; Head Start ; Glendale Heights ; Vietnamese community ; restaurant kid ; Nam Dinh ; pho 0 1095 Family relationships Hac talks about his relationships with his immediate and extended family. Milwaukee ; Glendale Heights ; cousins ; California ; Texas 0 1291 Asia on Argyle, Vietnamese identity and media representation Hac reflects on his long relationship with the Argyle community, as well as his Vietnamese identity and how it has evolved through the years. He talks about the media and books that have impacted him personally. Lunar new year ; DePaul University ; Christopher House ; Uptown ; Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Chinese Mutual Aid Association ; Texas ; media representation ; racism ; Jet Li ; Trinh Cong Son ; Bob Dylan ; Joan Baez ; Khanh Ly ; nhac vang ; Bolero music ; nhac trinh ; Modern Talking ; New Wave ; Andrew X. Pham ; Catfish and Mandala 0 2060 Argyle shops and restaurants Hac talks about the businesses on Argyle. He mentions some of his favorite meals at local restaurants. Tai Nam ; Double Happiness ; Hong Kee ; Vietnamese Chinese ; Teochew ; Jennifer Pham ; Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Nha Hang Viet Nam ; Da Nang Kitchen ; Quang Nam ; Mi Quang ; Pho 777 ; Hanoi ; Café Hoang ; Hue 0 2324 Life plans, Vietnam and culture Hac talks about his community ambassador role in the Uptown neighborhood, and why he didn’t expect to be working here as an adult. He describes his time living and working in Vietnam and the plans he had at the time. He also talks about the idea of moving back to Vietnam, and how culture evolves. Argyle ; Budapest ; Hungary ; Texas ; non-governmental organization ; Save the Children ; Quang Nam ; Le Ly Hayslip ; gentrification ; culture 0 2652 Vietnamese American identity Hac reflects on what makes us Vietnamese or Vietnamese American. food ; Prague ; Little Saigon ; diaspora ; cultural events ; place-based lived experiences ; Double Happiness ; cultural corridors ; identity 0 2974 Similarities, differences and how we see ourselves Hac talks about the ways he is similar and different from other Vietnamese Americans, how he is seen by people in the community and how he sees himself. He also talks about his parents ideas of how to maintain Vietnamese identity. Viet kieu ; Southern California ; Orange County ; Sup Dawk ; boundaries ; expectations ; HAIBAYO ; Vietnamese language 0 3866 Vietnamese communities around the world Hac talks about interesting Vietnamese diasporic communities he has visited abroad. Little Saigon ; San Jose ; Budapest ; Czech Republic ; Prague ; Paris ; Chinatown ; Eastern Europe 0 4117 Partnership and passion Hac talks about his business partner and friend, Jenny Pham, and what keeps them motivated to do community heritage work. Jennifer Pham ; Da Lat ; Chinh tri Kinh doanh ; Nguyen Van Tam ; Vietnamese Association of Illinois ; Chinese Mutual Aid Association ; Hue ; Lac Nhan ; Axis Labs ; HAIBAYO ; Tong wars ; Chinatown ; Hip Sing ; San Francisco ; New York ; ethnic Chinese ; Mini Thuong Xa Pharmacy ; CVS ; cultural legacy ; erasure ; Chicago Transit Authority ; Hoan Huynh 0 4812 Impact of time in Vietnam, and how we build connections Hac reflects on his time spent in Vietnam and how it affected him. He speaks of meeting family members for the first time, and of how it solidified his sense of personal identity as well as his career plans. He discusses how connections are built in Vietnam versus in the U.S. Agent Orange ; south Vietnamese ; collective bonds ; community 0 5393 Asian and Black community relations Hac reflects on the relationships between the Asian and Black communities. He talks about the email he sent to his family regarding this division, and how his parents passed down a love for humanity. racism ; colorism ; Black community ; Black Lives Matter 0 5728 Next steps and finite time Hac talks about what is next for him, and also about a recent health scare from his father that made him realize their time together is limited. community work ; Chicago ; inherent trauma ; reconciliation 0 Oral history Hac Tran is a Vietnamese American community organizer. In this interview he shares his parents' immigration stories, his childhood growing up in Chicago, and his work in the cultural district of Asia on Argyle in the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago. Hac also speaks about living and studying in Vietnam and how these experiences shaped him personally.&#13 ; NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000  00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:19.000 Okay. Today is April 25th, 2023. I’m Jenn Ho, and I’m here with Trần Qúy Hạc (Tran Quy Hac), interviewing him for the Children of Refugees Vietnamese American Oral History Project, and we are in Chicago, Illinois. Thanks for being with me today, Hac. How are you? 00:00:19.000 --> 00:00:26.000 Oh, yeah. I’m doing well. Thank you for this opportunity to, you know, speak and share my family’s history. 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:33.000 Yeah, my pleasure. Okay, so let’s start from the beginning of your life. Tell me when and where you were born. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:01:49.000 I was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1985 at Michael Reese Hospital which is in Bronzeville. Yeah. So, I was born in Chicago. My parents came here ten years prior. So, I was―I have an older sister, born in 1984. They’ve tried to have children before but, you know, a lot of miscarriages. So, my sister and I were kind of like miracle babies, I guess, after multiple miscarriages, for my mother. But, yeah, I was born and raised a little bit in Chicago. I’ve moved to the Chicagoland. Always been connected to―especially, you know, the Vietnamese American community here in Chicago, which was where we are now in Argyle Street which is now called Asia on Argyle. But, you know, growing up we always called it just Argyle or in Vietnamese you would say “Ahgai.” So, my parents were part of the Vietnamese Association of Illinois (VAI), in the early days. My mom worked there as a secretary years, years ago like in the late ‘70s and my dad was part of the board throughout the ‘90s. So, you know, I–we were always like engaged with the Vietnamese community within Chicago since my parents came here. 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:52.000 Okay. Thank you for that–that context. 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:53.000 Yeah. 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:56.000 So, you’ve really always been immersed in the Vietnamese American community? 00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:57.000 Yeah. 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:04.000 How did you feel about that as a child? Were you really into it? Or did you–did you embrace it or–or no? 00:02:04.000 --> 00:03:18.000 Yeah. I–from my memory, I would say like, yeah, I did embrace it in the sense that, you know, when you’re young, you have friends. So, there was like a lot of other kids our age. So, it’s like, you know, you–you build those friendships. It’s more about “Hey, I want to see my friend” and like be part of this, you know, this community of youth. It didn’t really click until later, you know, the idea of like being immersed within one’s diaspora and one’s culture. Because over the years growing up, you know, like you are part of it, but then you go to school. You kind of integrate into, you know, the larger American dominant society. So you do–I did like I felt like I did lose touch with my community and my culture for some period of time, like in my teen years up until college. But, yeah, as a kid, I was involved not only with the community but we were every like Tết (Tet) and like Lunar New Year like my mom and her friends organize the dance troupe of like all the youth. So, we were―every year we were like performing as kids, and like just in the youth programs and stuff with VAI and the larger Vietnamese community. So, but yeah, I think I embraced it because it was more so like connection between like other kids your age. 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:19.000 Yeah. Like it’s so— 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:20.000 That just happened to be, you know— 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:21.000 Yeah. 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:25.000 —we were all so embedded within Vietnamese culture and–and things like that. 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:41.000 Yeah. Would you say that your parents were involved because they–because they wanted to make sure that you held on to your sense of culture? Or was it really more for them or maybe a little bit of both? 00:03:41.000 --> 00:05:13.000 I think it’s both, because, you know, growing up I would hear it, you know, you can’t like mất gốc (mat goc, to lose your roots). You shouldn’t lose your roots. Like I would always consistently hear that from my parents, especially when they—you know, I would like prefer to speak English to them or something like that. And obviously also I believe it’s part of, you know—especially as refugees, right? They came in 1975. My dad always thought he was going to go back. Um, like oh, I—he didn’t—you never really know the future. So when he left the U.S., like for the U.S., or he left Việt Nam (Vietnam), rather — he didn’t really know where he was going — there was always like the desire of home, and returning home. So, I think for them like to have that shared kind of experience collectively with other people who have gotten through the same thing in building community, it’s, in part, I think for them, too, to, you know, maintain what this idea or this notion of home is. And obviously, you know, like when you have a family or–and–kids, you want to pass that culture down to your child. And I think for my parents, it’s—I mean, for many refugees, right? Like, within this–this time—it’s like, a lot of it’s like they’re forced to leave all they knew. So, like you’re in this strange new land and you see that with like throughout the generations with people. Like people like come and they always find their community. So, I think like for them it’s important and like to pass on to your children is–is probably the reason why. Yeah. 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:20.000 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you. I definitely want to talk more about you because this interview is about you. 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:21.000 Yeah. 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:24.000 But obviously we’re not who we are without our parents. So, let’s talk about them for a little bit. 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:25.000 Okay. 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:34.000 Do your–do your parents talk a lot about their–their children–uh, their childhood and, you know, their experiences growing up? And I’m talking about like pre-war before— 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:35.000 Yeah. 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:40.000 —all of that stuff, like who they were as–as people. Like are they open to sharing that stuff? 00:05:40.000 --> 00:10:29.000 Yeah. Surprisingly, I hear a lot of people, you know, peers my age, like they don’t know anything about their parent’s family because they don’t want to share it. Either it’s too traumatic or like it’s the past to be buried. But, yeah, like luckily for me I, you know, my–both my parents shared a lot of their history, like their childhood and up until leaving Vietnam. So, like both of my parents are originally from the north. My father is from Nam Định (Nam Dinh) which is a small province like, I believe, it’s like east, southeast maybe. I’m not exactly sure geographically. But it’s not far from Hà Nội (Hanoi). And then my mom’s side of the family—her father’s from Hải Dương (Hai Duong) which is near Hải Phòng (Hai Phong), around there. And my grandmother on my mom’s side is from Hanoi. So, they were--they grew up pre-1954, you know, when there was like still French colonialism. They lived in the north. Like my father was like—his family, I believe his father died young when he was young. Both my—my dad was kind of like an orphan. So, he moved around from different relatives’ houses and stuff. And then my mom’s side of the family—they were kind of like wealthy. So that’s why in 1954 my mom’s side of the family left. They were not Christian or Catholic or anything. So their circumstances for leaving the north for the south in 1954 were drastically different. My father just left with his younger brother, and, yeah. He went south and they lived in Sài Gòn (Saigon). Up until 1975, my father was part of the military a little bit but he went to Đà Lạt (Da Lat) to tea–or to study. He also had connections to the U.S. Embassy teaching English. So, that’s how he kind of got out in ’75. At that point, he was just him because his brother had passed during the war. And then my mom’s side of the family—my grandfather was a very wealthy banker in Saigon. So, she was like what–what you would say is like probably like the one percent of here. So they were–she was very privileged. So, they got out like April 30th through his connections. And then my parents met each other actually initially on Wake Island. So, my dad, I bel—yeah, my dad went to Guam first, and then went to Wake Island which is, I believe, it’s a Pacific island under U.S. military--I think it’s a military base or something. But in the refugee camp there my father was teaching English to other refugees and my mother was his like assistant. So, they had connected there. And then, through sponsorships my father was sponsored through Trinity Christian College in Palos Heights on the southwest side. It’s a suburb southwest of the city. And then my mother’s side was sponsored by a Lutheran church to Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So, my dad--you know, they lost touch after leaving Wake Island. But they reconnected actually here on Argyle Street, in probably like ’76-’77 or something like that, I’m not sure the exact year. But the story goes that back then it was not like you see now where there’s, you know, there’s a lot of commerce and businesses. Like where Vietnamese people met was like peoples’ houses. So, there was my dad’s friend. He lived like right at–right over here at Sheridan and Argyle, right across the street from where we’re from, actually. Um, and that year my mother—it was like the winter storm of, I believe, seventy-something and her and her friends from Milwaukee were going to go down to Chinatown. But it was like too much snow. And her friend had heard, “Hey, there’s like actually like someone who sells phở (pho, noodle soup) out of their house.” That’s closer. You know, if you want to go to Chicago, but it’s still like an Asian community. So, they decided to go there. They went there, ate pho, and there was also like mahjong, you know, in the houses. So, the story goes that, you know, my mom actually had to go—her and her friends left, actually, and she needed to go to the bathroom. So, she went back up. And then like the person leaving the bathroom, I believe, was like my dad. And then they met each other again. And through that he like just wrote down his phone number. And then, you know, a back and forth a lot like from my dad drove a lot to Milwaukee and, you know, eventually they got married and then my mom moved down here. Um, so that’s where kind of, I guess, my origin story starts in Chicago. And then like, yeah. Their–their story is, you know, my dad was an auditor for the state of Illinois. They worked with the VAI like I said previously. But like in the very early ‘80s, they decided to open a restaurant. But it wasn’t actually in this area. They opened it kind of on the west side of the city, pretty far west, like close to Oak Park. 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:31.000 What was it called? 00:10:31.000 --> 00:12:15.000 It was called Mimosa Cafe. At first it was like a Red Hots joint. Like my dad was selling burgers, hot dogs, things like that. And then he decided to add like simple items that were like fried rice, egg rolls onto the menu. And a lot of people really started buying that so he decided eventually to kind of pivot to just open like a Vietnamese restaurant. So it was called Mimosa Cafe. It was like, you know, those like hot dogs’ places are tiny. So, like there was like lines out the door. But then he moved the restaurant to Oak Park off of like Harlem, near the green line. But unfortunately there was like, you know—The economy was bad. He moved completely to another area, lost business. It survived like, five or six years after that, but eventually, you know, he had to shutter the business. And then we—that’s when we moved out to the suburbs. He got a job—a teaching job—at Wheaton North High School. And then, my mom eventually got into social work at Head Start. And then I grew up out in Glendale Heights which—surprisingly, there’s a lot of Vietnamese people out there. There’s a few churches. Not far from there is like a Vietnamese Buddhist temple. So, there’s actually like a large Vietnamese community. And so, I grew up–I grew up with like in–in grade school, high school, with like a lot of Vietnamese kids around me. So, not only was I connected here to Argyle and like VAI and like that youth program of Chicago, but where we lived, like, my kindergarten classroom was like three Tran students—me, Steven, and another Tran, you know. So, it was like, (chuckles) you know, we–I grew up surrounded by that, that culture. 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:21.000 Yeah. Okay. What years was Mimosa Café open? 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:25.000 (sighs) Whooo. I should–I should know this precisely. 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:26.000 You were–you were around though. You were— 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:28.000 Uh, they opened before I was born. 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:31.000 Oh, okay. 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:31.000 So, I believe it was like probably like ’80. 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:32.000 Okay. 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:36.000 And then it was like a ten-year period, like from the–from 1980 to 1990, I would say. 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:38.000 Okay. 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:41.000 Yeah. So, they even had it like a restaurant before my sister was born— 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:46.000 Okay. So, do you have memories of–of being in–in the restaurant? 00:12:46.000 --> 00:13:44.000 Yeah, I do. Um, the–the second restaurant, though. The first one I wasn’t around for that. So, I think, yeah. So, I just remember the one like on Harlem Avenue, over in Oak Park, right at the cusp of the city, just like sitting in the back, like on the milk crates and eating egg rolls and like, you know, his workers like prepping all the food. And there was this one booth that I remember specifically. It was like kind of near to the kitchen entrance, and me and my sister would like, would be those little kids, you know, when you go into a restaurant, you see those little kids coloring and stuff. We were those kids in the back. And it was interesting because like a few years ago—the building still exists. Now, it’s like actually surpri–like funny. It’s like a Red Hots, a gyros hot dog place now. That person bought the building after, you know, my dad shuttered his business. So, we went—actually, my sister and I—went there and it was like–it was weird. Like that was the first time I’d been in there since, like, 1990, I guess. 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:46.000 How did you feel? Tell me. 00:13:46.000 --> 00:14:49.000 I felt like–I don’t–somewhat emotional, you know. Like, you know, I was going with my sister and this was like kind of our humble beginnings as children, you know and like my parents’ journey of trying to succeed in this country. And I didn’t have, like, true vivid memories because I was so young. I don’t even know if I could put it into words but I felt like–I don’t–it felt–it felt strange. Like there was a kind of out-of-body experience, like whoa, like this is like the past and the present. And like I never really thought about this place, you know. But looking at old photos and stuff, there’s like birthdays every year. We always would have it there. And like all the Vietnamese community would come for our birthdays. So, it was like looking at that and like realizing how far we’ve come since that moment. Yeah, it made it—I would say, yeah. Um, I can’t think of the words right now. 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:50.000 Okay. 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:51.000 Yeah. 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:52.000 Sometimes there are no words. 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:53.000 Yeah. 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:59.000 So, um, did you and your sister go out there with the purpose of like visiting the (Tran coughs) shop and is that what you were–you set out to do that day? 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:29.000 I don’t think so. We were like thrifting. You know, like—and going to like–like shopping arou—like we stopped by Oak Park for something. I can’t remember what. But then we were like—I’m like “Hey, let’s just–do you want to go in and eat here?” So, we would–we ate but the food was not that great (chuckles). But–but it was more so like, you know, we wanted to like sit down in there and like see it. But, yeah, it wasn’t intentional. It just happened that we drove past it. Like, I’ve driven past it, like actually many times with never like I’m going to go in and see it. 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:30.000 Yeah. 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:31.000 Yeah. 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:36.000 Okay. Can I ask why–why did your parents decide to open a restaurant? 00:15:36.000 --> 00:17:28.000 I think it was more my father’s dream. Like he always wanted to probably be self-sufficient, and like, you know, have something of his own, to open a business. And he also like really enjoyed cooking. Like he was never like officially trained chef or anything. But like growing up in the north, um, he told me a story. Like, you know, pho actually is from Nam Dinh. The origin of pho, that dish is from his village or from that province. And like growing up, he was like - I guess he worked for like a family friend after his, you know, parents passed. Like his aunt sent him here. This guy who had a pho shop and like he learned that craft from Nam Dinh. So, he cooks, you know, like I think through that like he always like—and being alone, you know, throughout his like kind of formative years going to the south. Like he always had to cook for himself and stuff. So, I think like for him it was more—obviously, one, you want to open a business and try to be successful to probably build for your family. But there was also like this idea, I think, like he’s mentioned before where, you know, it’s–it’s like owning something of his own and like the passion for cooking. Yeah. And my mom is actually—I don’t think she ever really enjoyed the–the restaurant industry. But she like loves cooking. (siren sounds in background) So, it’s like growing up I just remember, you know, a lot of like gender roles within, you know, Vietnamese culture. It’s very patriarchal. But growing up, I would always see my dad in the kitchen with my mom, you know. And that’s like something you don’t really see in Vietnamese families. But he was like—you know, they were cooking together. So, I think like for me that - seeing that - was also like kind of was a segue into my enjoyment of food and–and like kind of food ethnography and food history and things like that. 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:29.000 Mm-hmm. That’s really cool. 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:30.000 Yeah. (clears his throat) 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:44.000 Something I’ve noticed as a theme in just talking to other Vietnamese people or to people of our generation is that parents always were very self-sufficient and very entrepreneurial. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:45.000 (sniffles) Yeah. 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:47.000 So, it sounds like that’s–that’s your dad. 00:17:47.000 --> 00:18:15.000 Yeah. Even though he like he didn’t succeed I think there’s that still that–that urge to try at least, you know. Like you–you can’t really tell the future of what’s successful or not. Like this block itself, there’s not really any small pop–mom–and shop restaurants from the early ‘90s that exist anymore, you know. So, people like, yeah, it’s that–that drive for–for entrepreneurship and to be self-sufficient, I think. 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:30.000 Yeah. Um, okay. So, let’s talk about you. Um, tell me about your family–your family and the people who raised you. I mean you’ve talked about mom and dad but were there any other family members around? 00:18:30.000 --> 00:20:34.000 Yeah. So, like (clears his throat) my father’s side of the family—he’s the only one actually that came to the U.S. So his entire family, all relatives like remained in–mostly in the north. So, I never really knew my dad’s family growing up at all until like later down the year, like years later I went to study abroad in Vietnam and like met them in the north. But like yeah. The people that raised me were, you know, like my mom, my dad, my grandmother. So, my–my mom’s dad died the year that I was born. So, I have two other cousins born like a month after me. Um, so we had—my mom is the oldest of eight. So, initially all of them lived in Milwaukee. But over the years, you know, growing up I remember like a big, close-knit family. Like I had eight aunts and uncles. There was eight of them, and then I had cousins. And those are like beyond my sister and I. Like we had like our cousins. Like those are all like our brothers and sisters. We grew up together. There’s three of them from Milwaukee. Two of them live here now. So, like—and that was like — growing up was—I just remember a lot of—it was a very busy household with a lot of different people always cooking. And like in the ‘90s my grandmother sponsored two of her younger brothers — so, my great uncles — over and they both lived in Glendale Heights near me. So, we would always be surrounded by aunts and uncles and my—I guess they would consider it like second cousins, my—but, you know, in Vietnamese it’s like just your uncle, your parent’s cousin or whatever. So, there was always people around. Um, and that like—I think like in–in many ways that— (coughs) I guess, what am I trying to say? I mean, yeah. It was like a loving environment, in the sense that there are a lot of different types of people, that grew up with you. Yeah. 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.000 That’s nice. Are you still close to these cousins? 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:59.000 Yeah. Um, so there is my sister and I. There is like seven of us in that–in our generation (clears throat) like between like now approaching forties I guess. I think some of them are forty already. But like we all like kind of grew up together and we’re still really close. Two of them live here. One lives in Cali and the other two live in Texas. 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:05.000 It sounds like—Are—I think I’ve met your sister one time a long time ago. You were—you guys are pretty close, aren’t you? 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:06.000 Yeah. (sniffles) 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.000 That’s nice. 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:31.000 Yeah. I’m mean that we are close but we, you know— I–I feel like (clears his throat) there’s also with any siblinghood there’s challenges and, you know, dealing with like inherited traumas and things like that that create conflicts. So, yeah. But we are like despite those things, you know, we are close. Yeah. 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:40.000 That’s great. You–so you’ve known–you’ve known this area, Argyle, your whole life. 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:43.000 I mean, there was years where I didn’t really (clears throat) come here. 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:44.000 Okay. 00:21:44.000 --> 00:23:41.000 It was probably like high school. Like after I got older I–I wasn’t really part of those dance troupes. Like we would always come here for like Lunar New Year. Um, but as like those like teen years, like I didn’t really—you know, I was hangin’ out with my friends, doing other things. So, I like kind of wasn’t part of the community those years. It wasn’t really until like I returned. So, yeah. During my childhood, I was like really embedded with the community but then the teen years I kind of did my own thing. But I went to DePaul University. So, I moved back to Chicago for college. And through that, like I think there was like—a lot of it during that time was like somewhat of an identity crisis. Like what is—who am—like, you know, who am I? Like am I more Vietnamese or am I like more American? Like kind of, you know, those struggles that a lot of other people in our generation kind of deal with. And beyond our diaspora as well. So, you know, I was questioning like—So, I took a–a bunch of like Asian American classes. I would always like come here. I actually worked from like my freshmen year, sophomore and junior year, I worked at Christopher House which is in Uptown, like with youth. So, we did like a lot of youth development work, one-on-one stuff, like reading skills like that. So, I was like right next—and that’s like right on Leland just south of here. So, I would always, through that, like, you know, Asian American classes, my work, and I started volunteering at like VAI and CMAA (Chinese Mutual Aid Association) in the youth program and as a ESL instructor. So, like through that like I like try to reconnect with this area. Um, but yeah. I think that didn’t really even like kind of answer my questions of what my identity is. So, I decided my junior year to like study abroad in Vietnam. Um, and then my cousin from Texas, one of the ones (something begins to beep)—Oh, can I turn this off? 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:42.000 Yeah, of course. 00:23:42.000 --> 00:24:33.000 Yeah, like the idea of like identity, right? Not really confident of who you are. So, I studied abroad and tried to like—Am I more Vietnamese than I realize? Like, I mean, throughout the years like–like, I’m, you know, Vietnamese American. It’s not like black and white. Like identities are so fluid and vast that it, you know, it’s hard to pinpoint in right or wrong, or this kind of dichotomy of identities, you know. So, I was like comfortable in my own skin of like who I am. And the–it–and not defining, you know. Like the Viet–the Vietnamese American experience is so diverse, right? There’s so many different like ways of thought and how we are. So, just being comfortable. Yeah, I’m a Vietnamese American and understanding and realizing like there are many different types of Vietnamese American people and lived experiences as well. 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:59.000 Mm-hmm. Okay. I’m really happy you brought that up because like half my questions are about identity and how we define ourselves. Um, I have to say I’m surprised that growing up amongst a bunch of Vietnamese Vietnamese people and Vietnamese Americans, that you–that you are questioning your identity. That surprises me. 00:24:59.000 --> 00:27:04.000 Yeah. I think like that’s the power of media and the power of—I mean, even though like I’m surrounded by the Vietnamese American community, it wasn’t like—and my family—you know, my family, I would say, I’m there every day. But, you know, especially like the challenge and cultural gaps that you have with your parents of that–that generation. There’s challenges and there’s like—you’re going to butt heads, you know. I didn’t understand these like really kind of more traditional conservative ways of, like, thought. And I’m like, that created conflict. So, even though, you know, you do have family around and community, there’s these—if you peel back the layers like there’s always like, you know, a lot of kind of conflict that exists, whatever that structure may be of conflict. So, I think like you know like saying that, you know you, despite having that–that connection and proximity to culture, in every day like when you go to school, it’s—I mean, there are Vietnamese kids but like there’s many more people. And also like we lived in a suburb that was adjacent to like, you know, a all-white, rich suburb. So, we went to school with kids like that and then you—as a kid you hear like, you know, racist things at that time. Like all that, you know, the kids that will say “ching chong” type of stuff, you know? And also the media just influencing your thought of like your identity, and self—rather like, self-worth, you know. So, there’s like–I feel like there’s a lot of different types of influencing factors of what makes up identity and what really crafted my understanding of like what I am, you know, and like challenging that throughout my youth or feeling like I don’t know what it is, I think. 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:26.000 Were—I have two questions. What role did your parents play in helping you figure this out? And by that, I mean like directly. Like, would you ask them a lot of questions? And would they be open to like answering them? Like, is this—were you able to talk to them about this kind of identity searching stuff? 00:27:26.000 --> 00:30:01.000 No. I didn’t. There was like really no question or no communication about that.Like I think like my relationship with my parents –like we were―I don’t know if it was like–it’s really close in the sense where I emotionally share my feelings and my challenges. Because I think like that’s the divide, right? Like just ‘cuz you’re in the same room with someone and next to them doesn’t mean you’re like interacting in a very deep meaningful way. Um, so growing up I never really engaged in that level ever with my parents. It was more like “Hey, you know, you’ve got to, like—” There is a lot of challenges and expectations of success and whatever that success might look like. But, no, I never–I never sought out like seeking my parent’s advice in terms of this. And I’m sure like as I get older now, you know I think about, like, maybe I should have, ‘cuz they themselves are going through probably a similar kind of identity crisis for their children. Because like if you’re in Vietnam and you stayed in Vietnam, you raised your kids this way. But now you’re faced with this completely different culture where your kids are no longer what you expected them to be. And that in a way leads to so many different challenges, you know. But like I think over the years my parents probably adapted themselves. And the expectation of, like, I’m never going to raise a Vietnamese kid like they exist in Vietnam, as a Vietnamese American kid, you know. So, yeah, but no, I never really sought that out. I don’t really actually—sought that out—like I kind of looked in and just found external ways to like understand either through books or media. Yeah, growing up I had Asian American friends like in high school that are still my best friends today. But we never–I don’t think we ever really talked about like the identity issue, right? Like are we Asian American? We just kind of lived it together through our common interests and maybe like our common struggles with–that drew us together. I don’t know. But um, yeah. I think it was more like just seeking ways to search for my identity externally either through reading or education or through experiential learning and like living abroad or something, you know. (sniffles) 00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:24.000 Okay. Thank you for that. You’ve mentioned media and external sources a few times. Were there any, like, you know fictional or real-life heroes that you kind of looked up to or felt a strong connection to? Or any like favorite books or musicians or anything that really like gave you a sense of strength and power? 00:30:24.000 --> 00:32:38.000 Yeah. I guess like real-life heroes, not really. It’s like, right, we talk about the representation of the Asian man in media. It’s like all kung-fu, even though like that’s the case, I did love Jet Li. Like his movies were bad ass, you know. So, me and my cousin would watch, you know, martial arts movies and like–like, yeah, hell yeah. Like this dude’s cool as hell, you know? But yeah, and then you see the larger dominant media and society depicting it. So, that influences like all your “I’m unworthy” type of thoughts, you know, that slowly start growing in your head. Um, music―I have like a weird history with music. Like–like I grew up just listening to like a lot of actually pre-war Vietnamese music and I still love it today. Like there’s–there’s a guy named Trịnh Công Sơn (Trinh Cong Son) who was considered the Bob Dylan of Vietnam. I think Joan Baez said that about him. And he always sang with Khánh Ly (Khanh Ly) and like that duo who was like pre-war. So, that type of music I think it’s called like nhạc vàng (nhac vang, yellow music, more commonly known as Bolero music.) (Note: Son and Ly are usually categorized as Nhạc Trịnh [Nhac Trinh]). My parents loved that so I would always listen to it. And I still love it today. But then like, yeah, my older cousins would listen to weird Euro-dance like, you know, Modern Talking. What did―it’s funny, because it’s like–there’s a documentary coming called “New Wave.” So, it was like a lot of that music that Vietnamese called New Wave but it’s like Euro-Pop, Euro-Trance, or whatever. So, I listened to a lot of that. So, even though it wasn’t Vietnamese, I think like a lot of Vietnamese people listened to that. And like even today, when you like―I hear Modern Talking like (sings) “You’re my heart. You’re my soul. Nah-nah-nah,” like on the block, it’s like all instant like “Yo!” Like that’s like, it sparks some type of, you know, realization or connection to someone else which is― yeah, I don’t know how–why my cousins listened to it, but they did. But I guess like maybe a lot of Vietnamese American in that generation did because now there’s a documentary being made about it, you know. 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.000 Yeah. I heard about that. It’s really cool. 00:32:40.000 --> 00:33:21.000 Yeah. Books, I think, more identity-wise, Catfish and Mandala (by Andrew X. Pham) was one of the first books that I really kind of―because it talked about–he biked through Vietnam, right? Like he talks about like–it was a page turner. It’s like a memoir and it really resonated with what I was going through at that time. It’s like wow! Like I want to seek—you know, that book didn’t tell you what to think. It was just sharing his experience and I wanted to―in many ways—live that experience too (siren sounds in background), to search and find what any resolution to what challenge of identity I had at the time. Yeah. So, yeah, that book I think. 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:26.000 That was a really good book. I had it for years on my bookshelf before I had the courage to read it. 00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:33.000 Yeah. I should re-read it. I haven’t opened it since that one time I read it. 00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:43.000 The part that sticks out in my head is the part where he says that he was looking at some like muck on the ground or like trash or something and he just felt really ashamed of his country. 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:45.000 Oh, wow! 00:33:45.000 --> 00:34:20.000 And, I remember that sticking out to me because I was never proud of my identity at all. So, I’m still working on that honestly. This is your interview, not mine. (both laugh) Um, okay. I really–I really want to go to your study abroad experience. But first, I want to go back to–to this area in your childhood. So, tell me like were there any businesses or organizations on Argyle or–or Uptown–that stick out in your head and what were their names and why were they important to you? Um, and also any like memories that you can share with us. 00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:32.000 Yeah. Yeah. I―so, like I said, I don’t think there’s many businesses that still exist. There are a few, like the grocery stores are still here, like Việt Hoa (Viet Hoa) is still here. 00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:33.000 How long has― 00:34:33.000 --> 00:36:45.000 I think they’ve been here since like the early—like the ‘80s. Like mid ‘80s until now. So, it’s like forty–forty years plus. Tại Nam (Tai Nam) I think came a little later. Um, but Double Happiness and Hong Kee, so those are all like Chinese restaurants, you know? And those are the ones that kind of have been here the longest and that have sustained over the generations. But Double Happiness is―they’re also refugees from Vietnam, but they’re like Vietnamese Chinese, Teochew Chinese. So, I have like a lot of memories there like going as a kid. The menu it is the same menu from when we–I ate there as a kid. They just photocopied it, whited out the price over, you know, because of inflation. And like now it’s eleven dollars a bowl versus back then it was, like, four. But, it’s still the―it’s like a photocopy and I just remember going in there with my parents and, you know, their friends and their kids, just like having like an ice cold soy milk, eating the dried noodles and just like― And back then, from what I remember like, um, my business partner who is Jennifer Phạm (Jennifer Pham)–her–she grew up here too. And like when we talk about Argyle and our memories of Argyle in the past it’s like—it was so much―like the memory is that the area was so much more bustling. There was so―it was like crowded full of Vietnamese people whereas you see now it’s like almost desolate, you know? And that–that’s for many reasons, I think. But like, yeah. I mean like the memories of–of that was like in–in the VAI, Vietnamese Association of Illinois, used to be just north of Argyle on Broadway in this older building. They moved since then. But it was on the second floor, just like a lot of memories there. Um, like for the new year, giving speeches in Vietnamese to like the elders, just playing and running around the rooms, like with other kids. Yeah, it was just like―yeah, those are fond memories. Like you don’t have any worries, you know. And you just like had fun and like ate food. It was―yeah. I mean those memories stick out to me, I would say. 00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:52.000 What–what–what would you order to eat at these restaurants, like then and now? Like what are your favorite few things? Like if you had so―like a total― 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:53.000 That–at that restaurant? 00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:56.000 Yeah, or anywhere else? Like you and I went to Nhà Hàng (Việt Nam) (Nha Hang Vietnam) the other day. 00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:57.000 Oh, okay. Yeah. 00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.000 So, anywhere at anytime. 00:36:59.000 --> 00:38:44.000 Well, I still love that noodle place. Like I used to eat there like on a regular―and I get the same thing but it’s the same recipe too. So, basically, it’s just like dried egg noodles with like seafood, pork, garlic oil. You throw in your sauces how you want to dress it. And then there’s a bowl of soup on the side. So, that’s one of my favorite meals on Argyle. I love, currently, today, yeah like there’s–there’s like different, restaurants that specialize in different things, even though like, you know, if you walked into a restaurant, there’s like 95 things on the menu. But if you are, you know, if you live here you kind of know what’s good, what restaurant does what well. So like, yeah. Đà Nẵng Kitchen (Da Nang Kitchen), the husband is from Da Nang, like Quảng Nam (Quang Nam), which is center region. So, they do like a lot of like stuff that you don’t seen on other menus like Mì Quảng (Mi Quang), which is like kind of a turmeric rice noodle, seafood, kind of more condensed broth. That’s really good there. For triple s―if you want northern food, Pho 777, his wife is from Hanoi or that region, and she’s brought a lot of northern Vietnamese dishes that are spectacular that you often don’t see actually in restaurants in the U.S. because it’s more southern food. Um, Café Hòang (Cafe Hoang) has really great bún bò Huế (bun bo Hue). They’re from Huế (Hue), which is like that spicy, you know, beef noodle soup that’s really good. So, yeah, like there–there’s a lot of things. Like when I’m craving something, that’s―you know, I’ll know where to go. Um, and like, yeah. When we ate where we ate, Nha Hang Vietnam, they do a lot of like really good southern style food which is nice. Yeah. Then what el―yeah. (both chuckle) 00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:46.000 Are you here often? Are you in the area often? 00:38:46.000 --> 00:41:37.000 I am, yeah. Since I started this ambassador position―it’s a community ambassador job through the city and through the Chamber. Like I’m here like probably every work day. Like Monday through Friday for parts of the day. But, yeah. I’m always around Argyle. Which is nice, but you know like I never really thought―like literally after college, like I actually moved to Vietnam. So, I studied abroad in Vietnam the year after I studied in Budapest and Hungary. And then I came back, graduated, and then I’m like “Alright, I’m moving to Vietnam.” So, I moved with my two cousins from Texas and we lived there for like three-some years. And I never thought I was going to actually do any type of work in Chicago, let alone like this community. What I wanted to do was like international work, right? Like kind of relief work. I wanted to move back to Vietnam and do like more large-scale, non-governmental organization work. Because my uncle, one of my mom’s younger brothers, like he did a lot of relief work. And he also like moved to Vietnam and worked at Save the Children. He was the country director of Save the Children for a few years and we overlapped and actually he was able to get me an internship. So, I did like non-governmental work in Vietnam. I moved to Hội An (Hoi An), which is also in Quang Nam in central Vietnam and I worked for Lệ Lý Hayslip (Le Ly Hayslip). She is the author and there’s a movie that Oliver Stone did about her. It’s called like “What hea–Heaven and Earth” I think it’s called? So, she has an organization there and I worked for her for like a year. So, I’ve always thought like “Hey, I’m going to go back.” The only reason I came back to Chicago really was to go to grad school, to do like urban planning. But I did international planning, with the intention of like going back to Vietnam or living abroad. But it was like during that research and like during those years I worked in Uptown, and like a lot of my research pivoted to more local things and like more so like, um, research on Argyle. You know, like through the lens of urban planning it’s like cultural preservation of a community. You know, I saw that, you know, there’s a lot of gentrification happening. We’re right next to the lake. You know, property values are increased like―and I remember just coming back here and it’s just like this is–doesn’t feel like Argyle of my youth. You know, like I said earlier, like it just felt busy. People came here all the time. And it just didn’t feel that, and there was a lot of closures, a lot of, you know, different things. So, eventually, you know, like I got involved and did a lot of different things, post-graduation, for Argyle. And that’s what like really made me want to stay in this community. 00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:49.000 I saw a pattern, when you were talking just now, that you wanted to go back to Vietnam, and also your dad did, too, at some point. (Tran coughs) But neither it―I’m assuming your dad never went back to live. 00:41:49.000 --> 00:44:12.000 To live, no. But he did, when I lived there, he came to visit. Um, but he never―he even, yeah, growing up like even his later years, he always said like “I want return and live there.” But it never happened, you know. I still have a desire to like, you know, go back to Vietnam and like, maybe not live forever, because I don’t think there’s like―I mean this idea of impermanence is probably the only permanent thing. Like I would like to return to Vietnam and live again. I think it’s a different―I think for Vietnamese Americans to return to Vietnam and like live there, it’s a–it’s a–it’s a different experience in understanding your identity as just a Vietnamese American. Like it’s like–it’s–it’s in touch with your culture. But that culture has also progressed, you know? Like I think like the idea of―And there’s so many different waves of like immigration, of like refugees in the ‘90s. Up until now, there’s still Vietnamese people coming here. So, this idea of the Vietnamese American experience is always changing and always fluid. But the ones that, I think that first wave of people, like held on to a–a culture of Vietnam that is, in many ways, no longer, um, present in Vietnam today. It’s been forty, fifty years. That culture evolves and changes. So, like the idea of like going there, it’s like experiencing something new but familiar, you know, and that’s, like, exciting. But also, like realizing “Hey, I’m not–this is–I’m not from here, and I’m not―” Like I think for me it’s no longer the seeking out affirmation of identity but just living and learning and realizing that I–I have many friendships with like Vietnamese people in Vietnam and like realizing like we are―we had different lived experiences. But there is that–that common sort of like Vietnamese culture that always exists that is a bond, you know. So, I feel like that like going back was more about like learning and sustaining friendships and embracing something new. 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:36.000 Thank you. Um, you mentioned a common thread. This is a question I ask myself a lot as someone who is still trying to figure out the identity piece of myself. Like what, in your mind, what are those threads that make us–that make us Vietnamese or Vietnamese American? 00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:43.000 What makes us Vietnamese or Vietnamese American? 00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:44.000 That’s a hard question, I know. 00:44:44.000 --> 00:48:27.000 Yeah, that’s really hard. Um, yeah. Man. Well, I know for one, right? Like regardless of like whatever Vietnamese American experience there may be, or Vietnamese experience, like this is like cliché and lame, I think. But like literally like the easiest thing to say is food, right? I mean–I’ve think that transcends the Vietnamese culture too. I think like you―the easiest way to connect and relate to someone is over a meal, right? Like it’s–it is that. Um, and that’s the thing. Like everywhere I go in the U.S. or even the world, I always go to like Little Saigon or Viet Town or whatever it is. I remember in Prague, like I sought out like the Vietnamese area. So, it’s like always like I don’t know if it’s like food, but maybe that’s just like a metaphor for something larger, like the seeking of–of home, of–of ― And that’s the weird thing. Like I’m comfortable in my own skin yet you go and you seek a diaspora of your culture as if it’s―you’re missing something, you know? But, or maybe it’s just familiarity, I don’t know. It’s always like I want like a bowl of pho or a bánh mì (banh mi, a sandwich) or even something beyond, you know, those two common dishes like everywhere you go. So, I think food is like something that really kind of connects people. But like also maybe it’s that–that thing I’m alluding to like searching, even though you may be confident of your identity, it’s― I don’t know if we’re lost, you know? Especially if people within that like the refugee diaspora. Like you could be comfortable and get to a point of like “I am Vietnamese American.” But maybe there’s always something you’re searching for, um, that’s like subconscious. I don’t know. And I think that’s―and I do see that a little bit with like the people I work with on this block, right? Even with my–my business partner. It’s like “Hey, we want to create cultural events and things.” But, you know, because like the–the fear, the reason why I stayed here was like, it’s almost the fear of, like, erasure. Right. It’s like the fear of like―I mean you see half this block. It’s like, empty. So, it’s like if once this is erased, if it is, maybe part of your identity is gone too. I don’t know. I think I’m going on a tangent, but I― Yeah. Because like I–even though like, you know, a place doesn’t officially make who you are but those like lived experiences in the space, the public realm, the physical realm, it’s strong. Like there is like ― right? It evokes memories and memories is like what like you asked me earlier, like if― I’m going to be real sad when Double Happiness closes. Because that―I don’t know if the kids will take over. Like those are like—and memories fade. So, it’s like if this–if this place is like―and I think that’s why cultural preservation and, like, efforts to kind of sustain cultural corridors is vital, because place matters and it–it’s part of your identity. And I think like yeah, wherever I go it’s like finding that slice of home, you know. Yeah. I don’t know. 00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:34.000 Yeah. I think I know what you’re talking about. Like my, um―actually this is your interview. We’ll talk― 00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:37.000 Oh no. Go ahead. I do want to hear. 00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:40.000 You do? Okay. So, I was born in the Chicago suburbs. 00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:41.000 Oh, okay. 00:48:41.000 --> 00:49:17.000 And so my–my parents lived in the suburbs, and my–my bà ngoại (ba ngoai) lived with them. And so, she always wanted to come here to Argyle to go grocery shopping. I have no memory of that because I was like four when we left,to go to San Diego. But when I came back, knowing that she had been here just felt like a connection to her, you know? (starts to cry) Yeah, it just felt–I’ve just felt like a connection to her, even though I had never seen her on this block or, anything like I was there with her, so― 00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:22.000 Yeah. That’s the power of place, and knowing, right? 00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:27.000 Yeah. Our identity is built on place. It really is. I mean this whole project is–is about place. 00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:29.000 Yeah. 00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:32.000 Vietnamese–Vietnam and America. So, yeah. I get you. 00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:34.000 Thanks for sharing that. 00:49:34.000 --> 00:50:11.000 Yeah. (chuckles) I (pause) definitely have follow-up questions but I don’t know where to go with them. You mentioned that Vietnamese Americans are a monolith. I mean, not a monolith, sorry. (both chuckle) So, and we talked about like what’s a common thread, which is really hard to answer. But thank you for doing a good job with that. Um, how do you find yourself different from other Vietnamese Americans? And I don’t mean better or worse. Just different. 00:50:11.000 --> 00:52:48.000 No, I think there are a lot of differences. I think like, you know, like I’ve–I have a lot of Vietnamese American friends that lived in Vietnam with me, right? So, we–and we had that shared experience of like Việt Kiều (Viet Kieu, overseas Vietnamese, or the Vietnamese diaspora) living in Vietnam. But we were different as well. Like they grew up in larger diasporas of Vietnamese community, like SoCal or Orange County, you know. And I think like being—the difference might be—number one—like you know, language. The embracing of like what is considered the dominant idea of Vietnamese American culture. Yeah, I feel like—dang, this is hard to explain. Like the difference lies in (sighs)—See the thi–, the idea is like, “what is Vietnamese?” To me it’s like–it’s hard to even like grasp, right? Like and it’s like almost like if you start identifying things it becomes like oh this stereotypical thing. Um, but I don’t know. There’s a guy on Instagram, Sup Dawk. He always like shows like Chú Hài (Chu Hai), like those like—That’s like real Vietnamese, like karaoke, you know. Those are like, you know, it’s kind of stereotypical Vietnamese. Like I feel like, I mean, if–if you want to point to something like, I mean, yeah, you see it in Vietnam all over. And like Vietnamese American communities like nhậu (nhau, drinking and socializing), you know. In a way, those represent community in a way, right? I think like–I think the heart of it is like is collectivism of shared experience and shared identity. And where I think I differ oftentimes and that–that’s why I think, even today like working in this community like the difference it boils down to like this idea of like–of more individualistic kind of outlook on life. Even though I’m part of a community and I engage in community, but like there are certain boundaries that I draw within my own identity. And I think that’s not a very “Vietnamese” thing, I would say. I think that’s, I think, more of a western concept. Um, so I mean I don’t even know where I’m getting at, maybe like the idea of a more collective experience versus a more kind of insular approach to life and straddling those two kind of thoughts. 00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:53.000 Tell me more about having boundaries around your identity. 00:52:53.000 --> 00:54:02.000 You know, like just like simple things like I’m on the block I used to work at—Southeast Asia Center—as a case worker, or a social service case worker. So, I had a lot of Vietnamese clients, like of many generations. And like the other day I ran into one of my clients. He is an older gentleman, like former Viet–South Vietnam vet. (clears throat) And he knows I used to work for the—like just boundaries like asking like “Oh, oh, you–you make more better money now” type of like “Oh, you look like fatter now.” It’s like that ease of that generation and how I—because I may be born here and have inherited, you know, different cultural learnings, that’s a little weird to me. And like “No. I’m not going to tell you how much I make.” And like it’s like, you know, so, it’s like kind of like navigating that, those like minor hiccups or maybe conflicts on a daily–or when you interact with like different generations. 00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:03.000 Okay. 00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:41.000 The expectation of what it is to be Vietnamese or you lose your roots, you know. It’s like I think a certain generation is going to say “Oh, you mat goc,” or you—all that stuff. But like have we really? Like have we lost our roots? Maybe we just have a different identity, you know, rather than like having this one monolith mold of what it is to be Vietnamese. I think it’s—for any ident–for any culture, any race. Like there’s no one. That’s–I think that’s dangerous, right? But yeah. I don’t know if that answers the question. 00:54:41.000 --> 00:55:02.000 Yeah. It absolutely did. Thank you. How do—This is going to be another tough one. I’m sorry. How do people in the Vietnamese American community see you? 00:55:02.000 --> 00:56:10.000 I don’t know how they see me. I can–I feel like I have a perception of how they perceive me. I don’t fully know, right? I don’t think like we can fully know how they see you. I think it varies between like what are, you know, the generations and the subcultures of Vietnamese people. I think for the peop–like the younger generation here and then especially with the work like kind of like activating space and doing like creative projects I think like, not only the Vietnamese American youth or people in my generation but like, you know, other Asian Americans, look at like me and my business partner who have HAIBAYÔ (HAIBAYO) as like kind of, you know, creative—maintaining not only Vietnamese culture but like Vietnamese American culture and treating experiences that are lived, not of the past but like it’s currently going on. But, wait. The question was, how do you think people view you, right? 00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:11.000 Mm-hmm. 00:56:11.000 --> 00:59:25.000 I really don’t know. Like I think like there’s a sense of—when I see the older generation of people—it varies. Like I think there’s some people—My perception, and maybe it’s clouded of, you know, oftentimes like self-doubt and like my own insecurities of things, anxiety, whatever. I might feel like “Oh, they’re like—maybe they think I’m not Vietnamese enough.” You know, maybe they like, you know, I’m not doing the same things they’re doing. You know, I’m not like—And even you often don’t see many like—I think in the Vietnamese diaspora of the older generation of success of a younger person is like, right, you–you’ve heard that “oh, if you’re a doctor or lawyer…like how are you going to make money?” Like I haven’t followed that path and like none of my cousins and like a lot of people—and that’s the thing too. Like a lot of Vietnamese Americans that I connect with don’t follow that path. So, I think like even within —there’s a divide between like the people that don’t follow that trajectory of like just making money and more people who follow more creative pathways to like their own career. I think I resonate more with that subculture anyway. So, like I’m surrounded by those people and a lot of them are Vietnamese American. So, like with those people like I feel like there’s just common understanding because like we— But sometimes when I’m in circles where there’s like “Hey, I’m like doctor, accountant…” like there’s not much of a connect beyond the surface level things, right? Oh like food, small talk, things like that. But I think it’s like, that’s the difference within this generation. But yeah. With an older generation of Vietnamese American, like I don’t know. Sometimes I feel like I hear compliments. Sometimes I–I hear people say like “You, you’re not even Viet—” like, you know. So, it varies. But what I—my perception it’s–it’s a whole gamut of like how people view you. And you can’t control that ultimately, you know. I can’t control if they view me that way and–and is it even worth it to–to make me lose sleep. Sometimes, you know, those who matter don’t mind and those who mind don’t matter, I guess. But, yeah, you can’t—for me, I don’t really—yeah, I don’t know. Like I used to like really care about that in terms of like—or not care, but like it would eat me up. Like yeah, like, fuck, am I Vietnamese enough for this person? But like everyone has a different opinion. It’s like a bowl of pho. What’s good pho? You know? I recently made like more northern pho and gave it to southern people. They hate it! Because it’s too salty. It’s— pho is supposed to be sweet for southerners, you know? So, it’s a challenge, yeah. Like I used to let it like really eat–eat away at me but at this point like you can only live your most authentic self, whatever that may be. Yeah. 00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:35.000 What about your parents? Did they ever try to instill some sense of what–what you should be as a person or as a Vietnamese person? 00:59:35.000 --> 01:01:38.000 Yeah. I think like number one where it was like language, I would say. Um, and that—my Vietnamese has like only gotten better because I lived in Vietnam and like I worked in community. But like—and also I made an effort to try to practice it more. But like I didn’t really—like in my teen years, I never even really spoke Vietnamese. And like at that age I never would engage with people. Like my people our age, like I would just speak English. I still speak English with my cousins, you know? Um, but yeah. There was always that kind of language aspect. Um, just like weird customs—not weird but it’s like customs that could be conflicting with like, you know, things here. I don’t know. But it—I don’t feel like—I think both my sister and I were—we pushed the envelope. Like we challenged them a lot in terms of like— surprisingly, they were old, of a older generation. Like the gap between my father and me is like 50 years and then my mom is like in her 70s. So, they’re like a little older than, you know, some other Vietnamese folks. So, I think as someone of that generation to come here, like you would imagine them being extremely traditional. And they–they in some ways they are. But I think like that relationship and of realizing too like “Hey.” I don’t know. I’ve never talked to them about this. But maybe like they’ve accepted like “Hey, this is like who my–who my kids are.” And like you can instill and try to push for certain preserv–preservation of certain cultural customs here and there. But also realizing that maybe, yeah, maybe like you can’t fully pass everything down —I think. I mean, yeah. That’s how I feel. 01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:48.000 Okay. Last question on this topic. How do you see yourself? 01:01:48.000 --> 01:03:57.000 How do I see myself? I guess in the realm of identity, of culture, if we’re talking about Vietnamese American, yeah, I–I feel like I’m one of many identities of what Vietnamese American is, and it’s always evolving. I see myself as— I don’t like to say like certain things, like about—you know, like toot my own horn but like I feel like I am becoming one of the community leaders of this area. I take like—you know, I’m honored to do that, to be one of many who are, you know, stepping up in this second generation and trying to preserve culture but also like creating new and fresh things that tie to a culture. So, like, yeah. I view myself as someone who cares about, you know, this–this specific community of Argyle and the Vietnamese community here in Chicago. Because it’s not big. It’s not, you know? And it ties back to self, of home. Like how can I sustain it so that part of me is not gone? Um, but yeah. I don’t know. Like I don’t–I don’t really think about—or I haven’t for a long time thought about—what it means as my identity of Vietnamese American. I haven’t—it’s been a while actually. I think I would say that I’m more confident in–in the cultural, whatever those cultural components that I–that I hold onto and that I value. I’m more confident in that now than I was like 20 years ago. Um, but yeah. I don’t—That’s–that’s a hard question. (starts to chuckle, and Ho joins in) 01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:03.000 That’s good that you haven’t really thought about it. In my mind, that’s —it sounds like you found peace then within yourself. 01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:16.000 Yeah. I think––yeah, I do feel that I’m at more at peace in terms of that–that realm of identity than I was before. 01:04:16.000 --> 01:04:25.000 Um, so you mentioned that you, everywhere you go, you look for Little Saigon or whatever, wherever the diaspora is. 01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:26.000 Yeah. 01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:42.000 So, we’re talking about place now. Um, what are some–what are some places, what are some cities where–where the–where you find that the community is really interesting or exceptional in some way? 01:04:42.000 --> 01:08:37.000 Yeah. Let me think. Okay. I have to think back at all those Little Saigons I’ve been to. Well, I mean the obvious is probably like foodwise and like just the level of like claiming space and calling the space home. I feel like the bigger areas where there’s more Vietnamese people, there’s just so much diversity and food experience that you can get, right? I’ve been at L.A. a few times but I always like go and visit my friends that live down there and like, it feels like in a way —and that’s why I think Little Saigons are created. It’s like Vietnam in many ways or whatever that Vietnam may be. So, it’s like a sense of ease. So, like San Jose is huge too. I’ve been there a few times. But I think like the most–the ones that stand out in my mind and that what’s most interesting actually might be probably like eastern Europe because it’s a different diaspora. And it’s a different migration pattern than the Little Saigon or, you know, Saigon whatever. Because there I don’t think they don’t call it Little Saigon. It’s more the northern folk that went to the former eastern bloc and lived there and created community there. So, it’s like a completely different experience. But there’s still like this idea–like I remember like in Budapest too when I was living there. Like I sought out Vietnamese people. And it was a completely different identity than my own, right, than my parents. They fought –these are people that I guess in a way won the war, right? They’re not the ones that fled because of like the collapse of Saigon. They went for economic opportunity or they were part of like the communist government back then or as diplomats. But they built their community there. So, I think those are interesting. Like it–it doesn’t resonate or there’s no strong tie to my own experience and my family’s experience. But there is still like this weird human connection of being Vietnamese. Even the politically—it’s so different, right? And I remember like hung out with like a bunch of like, you know, northern Vietnamese people. This was after I studied abroad in Vietnam, too. So, in a way I was more open to that, you know? But I–I think like east, like Czech Republic, like Prague, was interesting. Budapest’s Vietnamese community was interesting. But I also like find Paris really interesting, because that’s like a lot of Vietnamese people there are like—probably went there even before ’75, you know. So, it’s like this understanding of identity of are they more French or are they more—? and like the food is different, you know. So, I found that to be the historical layers of–of migration and also identity within those communities differ. But there’s always this wanting to go there and eating the food and learning about the Vietnamese community despite all of that. I mean, yeah. Those are—I’m trying to—there’s no–there’s—I was in Mexico recently but there’s no Vietnamese town. But I went to Chinatown though which is interesting. But yeah. I would really be interested in seeing more Viet towns. I mean I think mostly it’s in the U.S., you know, like the places where people went. But eastern Europe was interesting. 01:08:37.000 --> 01:08:59.000 Um, hmm. Okay. Um, who are some of the community leaders around here that people should know about. And actually, I wanted to talk about Jenny Pham and how–how did you two initially meet? 01:08:59.000 --> 01:14:02.000 Our parents are friends. So, they knew each other. So, my dad—So, there’s like a whole group of people who graduated from this program in Da Lat. It’s like a college in Da Lat, Vietnam. It’s called Chính trị, Kinh doanh (Chinh tri, Kinh doanh), so it’s like political and business major at Da Lat University. So, my dad —that group kind of met because they all are like alumni. (coughs) And her mom—sorry, excuse me—her mom was an alumni. My father was an alumni. (sniffles) And also there was another gentleman. His name is Tâm. Nguyễn Văn Tâm (Nguyen Van Tam). He is a community leader here. He actually works with me as an Ambassador Program. But he worked for many, many years at Vietnamese Association of Illinois. And now he’s at CMAA. But he’s like in his 80s. So, he’s like been a community leader consistently for the last–since he’s come here since the early 80s. But yeah. Like me and Jennifer, our parents know each other through that circle. We used to play piano together. There was a Vietnamese lady from Hue. Her name was like Cô Lạc Nhân (Co Lac Nhan). And she lived, surprisingly funny, on Mozart Avenue. And she had like 50 Vietnamese students, piano students. So, like through that too, like there was that community. So, I played piano with her and her brother. And she was like part of Viet — like just the same circle of growing up. But she’s a little older than me. So. then I hung out more with her brother at the time we were younger. (sniffles) Um, but that’s how I know her. And then we—actually we never really kept in touch. Like we would always know that we’re around. Like I ran into her like in Chicago like a few times here and there. But it wasn’t until like mid-2010s, 2015-16 or whatever where we reconnected. I was actually—I started another organization with a former friend who was also part of this community. She’s Tam’s— Chú Tam’s (Chu Tam’s) daughter. So, she was like, you know, grew up with us and so she’s younger than us a little. But her and I along with another few people actually started Axis Lab. But there was like challenges in working together. Um, just differences on vision. I think they still exist but I don’t know how functional they are. But her and I are co-founders of that. I eventually left. And then Jennifer was part of it but then she left as well. And her and I reconnected. We connected like prior to Axis Lab. Like we invited Jennifer in through that like kind of like that relationship was forged again and that friendship. And then after we both left like we connected. Hey, we wanted to like do something again on Argyle like maybe a year after. And that’s how HAIBAYO initially started. And I think you’ve been to a few—like it was really like more of like, Hey, you know, a lot of what Axis Lab did was really beautiful, right? It was like really curated, well thought out. But sometimes it’s a challenge working with–with pe—you know. Not everyone can work together. Um, but like, yeah. We started HAIBAYO and just kind of wanted to make it like a fun party. But also, that had culture, right? Like there was like food. We always had a food vendor. And we worked with the business on this block. Like at each different event it was always a different food restaurateur. (sniffles) And like I think you–like when you had Lawrence and Argyle you were at one or two of those events. You know, like so like building those networks and curating something that was within the younger or second generation Asian American identity yet also kind of honoring the past. That’s how we, yeah–that’s how we–I reconnected with her. And she–her father I think was like the first Vietnamese business owner on this block. Because this area used to be, prior to the fall of Saigon and a lot of influx of refugees from Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos, this area used to be more Chinese. So, there was a–I think it was like after the Tong Wars, you know, like with the Chinese Chinatown Tongs. Like Chinatown on the south side is run by like one Tong which is now like more of an association rather than, you know, its checkered past. And then here it’s Hip Sing which has like connections to San Francisco and New York. So, they actually came here first and bought up all the land and buildings. This was like kind of a, what urban planners like to say blighted, right? A blighted area. And people just started coming here after, you know, the war, and it became more southeast Asian and more Vietnamese even though there’s still a lot of Chinese. And a lot of ethnic Chinese from Vietnam came here, as well. So, I don’t even know where I’m getting. But anyhow like I think like, yeah. I forgot where I–what direction I’m going in. 01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:07.000 Um, we were talking about Jenny’s family’s business. 01:14:07.000 --> 01:15:02.000 Oh, yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah. He was like the first Vietnamese business because it was mostly Chinese businesses, and she is still part of—And that pharmacy (Mini Thương Xá Pharmacy, Mini Thuong Xa Pharmacy) is still here. And I think, I don’t want to speak for her. But she does––one thing she tells me, and often, and she does say it and she shares with other people like her–she herself didn’t think she was going to stay here either. But she said that there was a moment in the past where her dad was thinking about retiring and selling this pharmacy, this family pharmacy, to like CVS. And that sparked something in her that brought her back here. And through that and, you know, she has her own journey and her own story which I’m not going to say for her. But that one thing like, through that, I think that allowed us to reconnect. (clears throat and sniffles) 01:15:02.000 --> 01:15:22.000 You’ve talked about this a little bit. But what do you think it is that–that keeps us doing what you were doing. And I guess when I say “us” I mean people like you and–and her. Um, is it obligation? Is it, um, you’ve mentioned fear of erasure? 01:15:22.000 --> 01:19:54.000 I think it’s more like for a lot–I’ll speak independent for me. Like I’ve said in many past interviews with folks that it’s like carrying on the cultural legacy of our parents. And to a certain degree, I still believe that but a lot of this work I think too is for one’s self and for others like us, um, of like a younger generation. Because we can’t move backward. We can only move forward. And you can never forget where you come from either. So like honoring those past histories but also thinking about the now and the challenges that exist now. And yeah. Are we going to exist? We’ll always exist as independently into the future regardless of the spaces here or not. But is that value of like that fear of erasure of–of displacement of like, you know. Like I could just go to a Vietnamese restaurant but like there’s something else about when you–you go to a corridor or a larger community that is your diaspora and you have those connections and you have like—That’s why like Chinatowns, Little Saigons are important, right? And the cultural preservation of these cultural districts is vital because of like—it is identity. It is community and–and it’s okay to have like ethnic enclaves in cities. I don’t—A lot of people say like “Oh, I don’t want to be, you know, labelled as like just living in a Chinatown.” But those are like—it–there’s a beauty in having that space and honoring and carrying on those cultural legacies and also evolving, adapting to what it is that is your identity. I think like we did get a large grant to open up a cultural events space and that’s gonna—It’s not gonna be like—It’s going to be our own experience because our visions and our experience will, you know, will define that space, you know. So, it is–it’s Vietnamese American, and we really want to push like the history of Argyle storytelling and highlighting other people. But yeah, as I think it’s important, right? Especially for this community right now. There’s so many vacancies and like, how do we mobilize now because there’s so many external forces that are going to impact this area in a negative way, right? The–there’s—for years there was this Streetscape project that took two to three years that impacted local businesses. The CTA (Chicago Transit Authority, or in this instance, specifically the “el” or elevated train) is getting fixed right now. You know, obviously like it’s good to have like infrastructure that is ADA accessible. But also a lot of small businesses are hurt. There’s been like nine closures since the pandemic and this train system, or this train construction happened during that time. So, yeah. They’re like—So now is the time of like, how do we connect with other community leaders? And collectively like start envisioning and identifying the challenges and the opportunities and things like that to sustain this cultural legacy of this area. And the good thing is like the governor of this state in 2021 passed a bill saying like certain areas, geographic areas could be culture districts. So, I don’t know what that looks like on a hyperlocal level, but that is a law in the state of Illinois. Um, but I’m very excited about the future. Even though like now is like—I think there’s so much opportunity right now. This district elected the first Vietnamese American politician. He’s a friend of ours, Hoàn Huỳnh (Hoan Huynh). So, we work like with him like being connected to like CMAA, Chinese Mutual Aid Association. They were founded by a Vietnamese Chinese man, refugee, but have evolved and like done a lot of different really cool, innovative things for this area. So, just having like—And then there’s a–the alderperson is a Filipina–queer Filipina American woman that, you know— How do we kind of convene and really think about strategically carrying on this—or preserving this—culture in this district. Um, I think it’s–it’s critical, you know? 01:19:54.000 --> 01:19:56.000 So, you plan to stick around for a while and be part of the—. 01:19:56.000 --> 01:19:59.000 Yeah. I have. I plan to. 01:19:59.000 --> 01:20:11.000 That’s great. What is the definition of cultural district? Like how did they define it when they—or–or do you know? 01:20:11.000 --> 01:20:12.000 No. I need to look up that. 01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:25.000 Okay. (both laugh). No worries. Um, okay. So, I–so you’ve been–you’ve been back–you’ve been to Vietnam many times, it sounds like. 01:20:25.000 --> 01:20:26.000 No. I’ve only been there twice, actually. 01:20:26.000 --> 01:20:28.000 Oh really! 01:20:28.000 --> 01:20:41.000 Yeah. But, um, the first time was like study abroad. Then I went before and stayed after a little just to travel. So, that was like eight months or so, six–seven months. And then I moved back for like three years. 01:20:41.000 --> 01:20:42.000 Okay. 01:20:42.000 --> 01:20:50.000 But that was like twenty-eight to twenty-eleven, 2008 to 2011. So, I actually haven’t been back to Vietnam in thirteen years, or twelve years at this point. 01:20:50.000 --> 01:20:52.000 Okay. 01:20:52.000 --> 01:20:53.000 Um, and it’s changed probably drastically. 01:20:53.000 --> 01:20:54.000 I’m sure. 01:20:54.000 --> 01:20:55.000 Yeah. 01:20:55.000 --> 01:20:58.000 Yeah. Um, how are you doing on like energy right now? 01:20:58.000 --> 01:20:59.000 Oh, I’m good. 01:20:59.000 --> 01:21:00.000 You’re good? 01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:01.000 Yeah. 01:21:01.000 --> 01:21:03.000 What time is it? What time is it? 01:21:03.000 --> 01:21:04.000 12:16. 01:21:04.000 --> 01:21:20.000 Okay. Cool. Um, so I want to–I want to ask like how— I’m sure every time you go–both times you’ve gone to Vietnam, you’ve come back changed in some way, affected in some way. 01:21:20.000 --> 01:21:21.000 Yeah, I would say so. 01:21:21.000 --> 01:21:24.000 Can you–can you talk a bit about–about that? 01:21:24.000 --> 01:22:43.000 Yeah. I think the first time I went was— The reason why I went was like, you know, it tied to like that–the idea of identity. Um, also it was beyond just identity, right? Like for me, to go to Vietnam was also to–to learn about my dad’s—like it–it was not intentional. But I–what happened when I was there is that I met his family. (sniffles) You know, I met his brother. I met his older sister, and I met his entire family that he—really I never knew about in my entire life. And like to forge those relationships—it was like odd at first because like I didn’t know them. But they were so generous and close, right? Um, or o–being open to like this level of closeness. So, I found that really, for me, like really heartwarming to have this–this family in this faraway space that I’ve never met and like forging those relationships and creating lived experiences with them. So, that was like a very personal like family thing that I was buil–was able to build. Um, but yeah. I think like — Could you repeat the question one more time? 01:22:43.000 --> 01:22:47.000 Yeah. How did your trips there affect you? 01:22:47.000 --> 01:27:31.000 Oh, okay. Um, so yeah. On a personal level—family, it affected me that way. Identity-wise, it really, really like—There was a lot of things that I realized about my identity that I wasn’t like—I was searching like, am I Vietnamese, right? And I think like that became clearer—is that you could still embrace certain cultural customs and traditions and still be whatever you are. So, I think I–it–those years in Vietnam allowed me see like hey, you know, there are certain instances that I experienced that how I am, like a little more western. Um, and that–and I’m fine with that. So, like it solidified my own identity, as being like Vietnamese American, whatever that may mean. But also I think career-wise it really—like I worked in like different realms of like non-profit and like non-governmental in Vietnam. Um, and I think that kind of really solidified like my passion for working with community and building something with others. I saw a lot of poverty. I’ve seen things that like I never thought I would see, you know? Like going into the very rural areas and seeing poverty and lack of access and lack of resource was like eye-opening. I remember like driving up to the mountains in Da Nang and we were working with a family who the father was a south Vietnamese—he fought for the south. And his two sons who are like twenty—They were older than me at the time. Like I think I was like in my twenties. But they were like approaching thirty. They were like two brothers and they had like Agent Orange. And like because of his alliances with the south Vietnamese like they get nothing from the government. So, to see that this like completely different trajectory of like what it is to be Vietnamese from this place of war. Also like, you know, it humbled me, my–like myself in terms of how lucky I am to exist where I exist today. Because like I could have been completely different. And to see that in Vietnam, especially then my second time around, that’s where I worked. Like I worked with street youth. I worked—like it was things that you, living here I never thought. I mean there’s poverty here, right? There’s so many issues that exist in this country, with like any country. But like, yeah, that was—that impacted me in terms of like wanting to follow a certain path that is, you know, not about money. Because money doesn’t ultimately matter, you know, when— And also another thing I learned too is like, you know, despite—and this—I don’t like saying this. But there is a sense of like this human connection. In Vietnamese, they say like—and that’s where it’s interesting when I go back and talk about like this idea of like more individualistic and which I think there are the certain boundaries that I draw for myself and my identity. But like a lot of it too, like what I really found beautiful about Vietnam like they say like, “sống với tình cảm (song voi tinh cam),” like to live with like, you know, tinh cam, I think that means like–like emotion or human connection or something. And I think that’s very real, and I experienced in Vietnam. You can become friends with someone that you’re just sitting outside and having a coffee. I became friends with people because of that openness. And you learn about that person, and you forge whatever relationship you want to forge with them. And I do feel like I miss that especially when I came back to the states. Like I missed that human connection, you know. I felt very alienated here. And then, you know, over time now I don’t feel that. I feel like those kind of cultural, collective community bonds that exist within the Vietnamese culture happens here, right? Like it’s—despite like how much that I don’t know how people look at me, but like interacting with them and having that sense of community is like, it–in many w–yeah, it makes you feel part of something, you know. To feel accepted and to feel, yeah, to be part of something is important. So I think like those are the takeaways that I’ve—the key ones for me in my life from my experience in Vietnam, I would say. 01:27:31.000 --> 01:27:58.000 That’s great. Yeah. I feel like when I–when I came here, the community was very open and welcoming. So, I think that you and the people here have everything to do with that, that just sharing that openness. So, I definitely see that. Are there any questions about yourself, your identity that you’re still asking? 01:27:58.000 --> 01:29:09.000 Mmm. I don’t think so. I think I’m—I don’t question it. What I realize is that, yeah, like my identity will evolve to s—you know, like, and that’s the evolution of who we are is based off of different types of experiences. Like I don’t know like where we’ll be and how I’ll feel about myself and my identity of being Vietnamese American in a year or two years from now if, you know, when we open up space. There’s more—I don’t know, like, what I’ll be then. So, I think like it’s not more about questioning but it’s more about curiosity and being open to like letting life impact you. You have to take the good and the bad, I guess, and how that will change you and who you are. Yeah, because I feel like there’s going to be really great things for this community if we work together collect— (at this point, his phone rings) oh. 01:29:09.000 --> 01:29:10.000 Is that the alarm? 01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:32.000 Yeah. But yeah. If we work together and yeah, you–we change, you know. Like once you’re pushed onto like a larger stage of this community and building community, you embrace that change and you embrace that evolved identity of yourself. I don’t know. (laughs) 01:29:32.000 --> 01:29:53.000 No, that’s great. Thank you. I have two more questions. I know we’re super low on time. So, I’ll just ask them real quick. Um, what do you—so, there’s a–there’s a very contentious, often contentious relationship between the Black community and the Asian American community. 01:29:53.000 --> 01:29:55.000 Yeah. 01:29:55.000 --> 01:29:58.000 And I wanted to get your thoughts on that. 01:29:58.000 --> 01:34:05.000 Yeah. I mean I—you know when especially—that there is, right? I remember when a lot of that—it was a few years ago—I mean that’s still—I mean these issues happen today. I believe that, you know, there is a–an entire distrust and a gap or a lack of understanding between the Black and Asian community. And I think a lot of it, from the Asian perspective, is perpetuated within—I don’t know if it’s racism. I’ve seen it in Vietnam in the sense where oftentimes like this idea and this larger kind of idea of color, colorism, influences and–and–and makes way into someone’s mind of value of the human, right? Like in Vietnam if you work in the fields, you’re darker and you’re poor. And I think a lot of that has influenced certain people and like this cultural understanding of colorism of class and human worth which is—when you assess it, I mean, it’s fucked up. I think like—and also like the struggle of the Black community here it’s—for me, as an Asian American and Vietnamese American as much as there’s been trauma and hardship from our diaspora, there’s—like to be enslaved by white people for 400+ years and to suddenly be expected to—and that have no resources and still feel the racism, like to me I think that is atr–outrageous. And I think there needs to be more understanding from—like for us, like especially if our parents and the older generation hold onto these ideas of what they view as certain, you know, negative stereotypes of Black people, it’s our responsibility, if we don’t believe that, you break those barriers and talk to our parents, um, and talk to like those–the elders. Because it’s not okay. Like I think we can’t sit here and talk about like our trauma and our struggles and hope that the larger dominant racist society accepts us without doing the same to other communities of color. And there are similar threads but it’s incomparable in terms of like what Black people have experienced in this country versus like Vietnamese people. And I don’t want to play “oppression Olympics” but that is true, right? Like Vietnamese people weren’t slave–enslaved for 400 years here. Yeah, we were forced from our land politically, but we weren’t stripped from our land and viewed as not human. So, I think like it’s important for our generation and I think a lot of younger generations are—who live here and like, you know, when you live in America you’re embraced and you’re surrounded by other cultures and you learn and you expand and you grow. I think that’s critical in terms of like this idea of like, you know, the—of justice and equity. Um, a lot of younger generations even like after like Gen Z Asian Americans are way more open-minded than previous generations. But it’s–it’s going to take a lot of collective effort. But it does start with yourself and really challenging your beliefs. A lot of—I’ve talked to like other Asian Americans who don’t—like they just inherit this racist ideology from their parents, and they view Black people this way or this or that way. It’s like, yeah, you have to—you know, you have conversations, and you try to critically analyze why they think the why they do. And sometimes they just don’t care and that’s—but it does start with conversation and challenging those really kind of toxic, deadly beliefs. 01:34:05.000 --> 01:34:09.000 You mentioned having conversations with elders. Have you been able to do that? 01:34:09.000 --> 01:35:28.000 Yeah. Actually like a few years ago, I sent an email to like, my whole family, like all the elders about like Asians and like how—and Black Lives Matter. (sniffles) And there’s some people that didn’t respond because I think they probably hold on to those—I don’t know. But that–there’s family members that—I’m lucky enough that most of my family members actually are pretty liberal even in that generation. But there’s some that are, you know, that voted for Trump and that have consistently voted not in their own interests unless it’s just about money. I don’t know. But yeah. Like I sent an email and my father like wrote a whole thing and shared stuff like about Black Lives Matter. So, like that was like really—like I think I’m lucky because my mom and my dad like—my dad was an educator, I would say. Like that’s where I think he views himself even though he has like done different things. And my mom has been like a case–like a social worker working with youth and tons of immigrant families from like all over the world. So, like they inherited a lot more love for humanity and understanding and breaking down those barriers. And I think my sister and I inherited that, you know. 01:35:28.000 --> 01:35:43.000 That’s great. That’s awesome. Um, okay. So, I want to ask what’s next for you. But also, since we’re running low on time also if there’s anything else that you want to say. 01:35:43.000 --> 01:36:52.000 Mmm, what’s next for me? I think this is a new beginning. Um, not a new beginning because I’m–I think like there’s so many new doors opening not only for me but like for me as an individual that’s part of this community, this Vietnamese American community in Chicago. I think there’s so many exciting—I mean there’s going to be a lot of work and a lot of challenges. But I think the pathways to like really –I wouldn’t say elevate but like really solidifying and making this community stronger is–is endless and boundless. So, I’m excited about that and I think that’s my role in–as one segment of the–the larger collective and that is exciting. So, and that’s I think next steps. Um, (coughs) do I want to say anything else? Mmm… 01:36:52.000 --> 01:36:57.000 It could also be, um, anything about your parents you want to share. 01:36:57.000 --> 01:36:58.000 Oh, okay. 01:36:58.000 --> 01:36:59.000 I mean anything— 01:36:59.000 --> 01:37:01.000 Oh. It could be anything. 01:37:01.000 --> 01:37:12.000 Oh, yeah, anything at all. Um, but if you wanted to like share a memory that maybe your dad told you about or something just so that it’s stated so that when you’re gone one day, it’ll be— 01:37:12.000 --> 01:38:18.000 I think like I was—this–earlier this year, I was faced with something very scary. I don’t know if I really mentioned it earlier in this interview. But there is this like emotional disconnect with my parents. Like even though I love them, there’s—it’s a challenge for me to like share how fully I feel. And like my father was actually like struck by a vehicle in January. And like the police came and said—I woke up to my mom crying. Like we thought he died. So, like I think like it’s important—it is a challenge and there’s inherited trauma of–of–of all of us, of Vietnamese American. Our parents come from war. Our parents come from things that we can’t even imagine. And there is things that—I’m not saying that inherent trauma is right, the way they raised us. They were trying to figure out their own way. So, like it was eye opening to me that—to see that my dad could have died in the short time I have left with him. It’s too—Oh man. I feel like I’m going to cry. 01:38:18.000 --> 01:38:23.000 That’s okay. 01:38:23.000 --> 01:39:22.000 It’s like (sighs) yeah, like really—as hard as it may be, like try to understand your parents and like break down those barriers before it’s too late. Because I’m lucky that he’s still alive and my mom’s still here. But I don’t want to have regrets, you know. And I understand like it’s—we all have—like I feel like there’s the way I was raised, it’s–it’s inherited that they contributed to like mental health and like end of the—like there’s something like once you’re gone, you’re gone. And if you don’t say what you need to say or reconcile what you need to reconcile, you’ll never have a chance. So, I think like I’m trying to figure that out and work on that. Because like that was–that was hard. And it’s like still like a path towards healing right now. But yeah. I want to just end at that. 01:39:22.000 --> 01:39:36.000 Okay. Thank you. Um, thank you for taking the time to sit down with me and chat with me. This–this project is–um, a big part of it is–is for a path towards healing for our generation. 01:39:36.000 --> 01:39:37.000 Yeah. 01:39:37.000 --> 01:39:41.000 Because we do have a whole lot of inherited trauma that we’ve been given. So— 01:39:41.000 --> 00:00:00.000 No, thank you for the opportunity to, you know, share and just speak. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_access.xml TranHac_HoJennifer_2023-04-25_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tran, Hac. Interview April 25, 2023. Description An account of the resource Hac Tran is a Vietnamese American community organizer. In this interview he shares his parents' immigration stories, his childhood growing up in Chicago, and his work in the cultural district of Asia on Argyle in the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago. Hac also speaks about living and studying in Vietnam and how these experiences shaped him personally. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-107 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-25 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hac Tran Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Chicago--History; Vietnam; Cultural heritage Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Chicago (Ill.); Milwaukee (Wis.); Budapest (Hungary); Czech Republic; Saigon (Vietnam); Đà Nẵng (Vietnam); Đà Lạt (Vietnam); Hội An (Vietnam); Quảng Nam--Đà Nẵng (Vietnam) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Hac Tran Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees