8 10 208 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Thomas Galyean OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GalyeanThomas_BeyerJason_2024-11-12_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. United States. Army—Veterans;Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975;chicken farm;U.S. Forest Service;El Cariso Hot Shots;Reserve Officers' Training Corps;San Marcos High School (Calif.);University of California, Los Angeles (Calif.);helitack;Loop Fire (Calif.);flight school;Fort Wolters (Texas);Fort Knox (Kentucky);The Personal Experience - Helicopter Warfare in Vietnam;We Were Soldiers;hunter-killer team;Bell AH-1 Cobra;Pleiku (Vietnam);Phan Rang (Vietnam);Bearcat (Vietnam);napalm;Fort Rucker (Alabama);Fort Hood (Texas);1968 Democratic National Convention;Gray Air Force Base (Texas);Ground-Controlled Approach;Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association;7-17th CAV;University of Virginia;Qui Nhon (Vietnam);My Lai (Vietnam);free-fire zone;return fire;law school;attorney;Fort Polk (Louisiana) OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Galyean, Thomas. Interview November 12th, 2024. SC027-071 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm United States. Army—Veterans ; Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 ; chicken farm ; U.S. Forest Service ; El Cariso Hot Shots ; Reserve Officers' Training Corps ; San Marcos High School (Calif.) ; University of California, Los Angeles (Calif.) ; helitack ; Loop Fire (Calif.) ; flight school ; Fort Wolters (Texas) ; Fort Knox (Kentucky) ; The Personal Experience - Helicopter Warfare in Vietnam ; We Were Soldiers ; hunter-killer team ; Bell AH-1 Cobra ; Pleiku (Vietnam) ; Phan Rang (Vietnam) ; Bearcat (Vietnam) ; napalm ; Fort Rucker (Alabama) ; Fort Hood (Texas) ; 1968 Democratic National Convention ; Gray Air Force Base (Texas) ; Ground-Controlled Approach ; Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association ; 7-17th CAV ; University of Virginia ; Qui Nhon (Vietnam) ; My Lai (Vietnam) ; free-fire zone ; return fire ; law school ; attorney ; Fort Polk (Louisiana) Thomas Galyean Jason Beyer Moving image GalyeanThomas_BeyerJason_2024-11-12_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/719f129d05a256f9cb4708d531ea8735.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 56 Personal Background Thomas Earl Galyean was a Captain in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War. He grew up working on his family’s chicken farm in San Marcos. His grandfather and uncle served in the military, and his father worked for Consolidated Aircraft building the B-25. Prior to entering the military, Galyean fought forest fires for the U.S. Forest Service with the El Cariso Hot Shots. U.S. Army ; Vietnam War ; San Diego (Calif.) ; Spanish-American War ; World War I ; World War II ; B-25 ; Consolidated Aircraft ; chicken farm ; U.S. Forest Service ; El Cariso Hot Shots 0 154 Military Enlistment There was compulsory military service for all men physically qualified for combat from Galyean’s high school graduating class of 1964. Galyean enlisted in the Army Reserve Officer Training Corps when he enrolled at UCLA, which gave him the military deferment necessary to complete college before entering active duty as a Lieutenant. Galyean says he enlisted in the Army because it had a year-less time commitment than other branches. While on summer break before returning to UCLA, twelve members of the El Cariso Hot Shots died in the Loop Fire. Galyean says that the helitack units who helped save some firefighters inspired his interest in helicopter flight. Reserve Officers' Training Corps ; Army ; Army ROTC ; ROTC ; San Marcos High School ; UCLA ; helitack ; Loop Fire ; U.S. Navy ; U.S. Marines ; U.S. Airforce 0 329 Early Days of Military Service and Training Galyean completed flight school for fixed wing aircraft while in his senior year of college. Once on active duty, Galyean went to the officer basic course at Fort Knox, Kentucky as an Armor. He then began rotary wing flight school at Fort Wolters in Texas. Armor Officer ; basic training ; Second Lieutenant ; training ; Armor ; flight school ; fixed wing ; rotary wing ; platoon ; Fort Wolters ; Texas ; Fort Knox ; Kentucky ; helicopter ; TH-55 ; Howard Hughes ; Hughes Tool Company 0 455 Deployment to Vietnam Galyean references a documentary called The Personal Experience - Helicopter Warfare in Vietnam. He says he personally experienced most of what was described in the documentary, but his experience with the rules of engagement regarding return fire was different from the documentary. Galyean then describes his general experience of military service in Vietnam as part of an Air Cavalry troop. Galyean describes the organization of his platoon, their typical responsibilities, the Ho Chi Minh Trail, Montagnards, free-fire zones, hunter-killer teams, napalm strikes, capturing enemy POWs, and evacuations. Galyean mentions the film, We Were Soldiers, and says it depicted much of what he experienced. Amazon Prime ; The Personal Experience - Helicopter Warfare in Vietnam ; Air Cavalry ; light observation helicopter ; OH-6 ; Central Highlands (Vietnam) ; Ho Chi Minh Trail (Vietnam) ; Vietnam ; South Vietnam ; Laos ; Cambodia ; free-fire zone ; Montagnard (Vietnam) ; 4th Infantry ; battalion ; Cobra (AH-1) ; scout (helicopter) ; hunter-killer team ; command and control ; Huey (Bell UH-1 Iroquois) ; F-100 ; Pleiku ; Phan Rang ; Bearcat ; napalm ; We Were Soldiers ; P.O.W. camp 0 1071 Promotions and New Responsibilities Galyean finished his aircraft training at Fort Ruckers, Alabama before beginning a stateside tour at Fort Hood, Texas, where he was assigned a unique responsibility for his first six months. After the 1968 Democratic National Convention, the U.S. President ordered there be developed a response team so the military could suppress riots. Galyean, then a Flight Operations Officer, worked with the Air Force from nearby Gray Air Force Base to organize an immediate response team and coordinate drills. For his second six months at Fort Hood, Galyean was commanding officer of the aviation support detachment for headquarters as part of the 501st Supply and Transport Battalion. Their main responsibility was quickly building temporary runways and landing strips for the Air Force, so that the armored division practically had its own portable airport. They used a Ground-Controlled Approach, which was a radar unit with a small control tower on a trailer used to call down aircraft. Vietnam ; Fort Rucker ; Fort Wolters ; flight school ; Huey ; First Lieutenant ; Fort Hood ; First Armored Division ; 1968 Democratic National Convention ; riot ; Chicago (Ill.) ; National Guard ; United States ; U.S. Air Force ; C-130 ; Gray Air Force Base ; Mechanized Infantry Battalion ; aircraft ; flight operations officer ; Brownsville (Tex.) ; aviation support detachment ; headquarters ; 501st Supply and Transport Battalion ; Deuce-and-a-Half ; pierced steel planking ; Desert Storm ; armored division ; Ground-Controlled Approach ; G.C.A. ; aero rifle platoon ; radar unit ; captain ; commanding officer 0 1565 Air Cavalry Assignment By the time he completed his stateside tour and deployed to Vietnam, Galyean was a Captain assigned to an Air Cavalry troop. He was made commanding officer of the aero rifle platoon, securing landing zones for aircraft throughout the week and conducting maintenance on Sundays. For his last six months in Vietnam, Captain Galyean was an Assistant S3 for the operations section of headquarters. He operated the control center assigning the Air Cavalry squadron and worked in conjunction with attack helicopter companies. At headquarters, he kept track of which units were flyable and ensured that aircraft got their assignments for supplying units. Vietnam ; Table of Organization ; Air Cavalry ; Air Cavalry Squadron ; Air Cavalry troop ; maintenance troop ; Huey Cobra ; Huey ; Cobra ; OH-6 ; gunship ; pilot ; platoon ; rifle platoon ; scout platoon ; light observation helicopter ; Assistant S3 0 1905 Adapting to the Military Lifestyle, and Media Representations of Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Galyean says that his general experience in Vietnam was difficult to adapt to, but he was forced to adapt quickly. He says the wives of American GIs especially struggled. The best writing he read on what it was like as a helicopter pilot in Vietnam are John Steinbeck’s writings as a war correspondent in Vietnam. Galyean again positively references the documentary, The Personal Experience - Helicopter Warfare in Vietnam. He discusses rules of engagement for return fire. He says scouts often had to shoot first or they would be killed before they found enemy combatants. Vietnam ; We Were Soldiers ; Mel Gibson ; wife ; Facebook ; Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association ; John Steinbeck ; Lady Bird ; Claudia Alta Johnson ; Lyndon B. Johnson ; L.B.J. ; University of Virginia ; Pleiku ; Air Cavalry ; Google ; Amazon Prime ; documentary ; helicopter pilot ; return fire 0 2292 Mechanical Issues with Huey Helicopters and Civilian Casualties in Vietnam Galyean describes some of the mechanical issues that Huey helicopters had. He tells a story from his time as an Assistant S3. He says a Cobras for one of his troops working along a beach had a rocket misfire and injured a little boy’s leg. Galyean says the My Lai massacre’s exposure to the public resulted in a standing order requiring investigations of civilian casualties to ensure whether they were intentional or accidental. Galyean was called upon to investigate the situation, and he says that, at the hospital where the boy was, the mother did not want to see the pilot chastised. Assistant S3 ; 7th Squadron, 17th Cavalry Regiment ; helicopter ; Cobra ; Huey ; Huey B ; gunship ; rocket pod ; jet ; F-4 ; F-100 ; rotor system ; single rotor ; Qui Nhon ; boy ; My Lai ; Lieutenant William Calley ; civilian ; village ; Kit Carson Scouts ; NVA ; North Vietnamese Army ; platoon ; Lieutenant ; hospital ; Jeep ; Vietcong ; 7-17th CAV 0 2730 Good Luck, Recreation, Comradery, and Communication with Family While in Vietnam For good luck, Galyean prayed often. For off days and days without flying, Galyean recalls relaxing and listening to music with his comrades. Sundays were maintenance days and typically the first or last day of someone’s deployment, so they would throw parties for all the incoming and outgoing GIs. Galyean tells a humorous story about how they once cooked steak and lobster for their dinner. He says everyone he served with was like brothers to him. While in Vietnam, he would write to his wife often. After returning from Vietnam, he has kept in touch with some of the people he served alongside. prayer ; recreation ; music ; maintenance ; party ; 501st Supply Transport Battalion ; commanding officer ; food distribution ; First Armored Division ; Army ; Qui Nhon ; Tuy Hoa ; steak ; lobster ; Mess Sergeant ; friendship ; comradery ; infantrymen ; pilot ; scout ; family ; letter ; Vietnam 0 3030 End of Military Service, Adjusting to Civilian Life, and Joining a Veterans’ Organization Galyean ended his service while at Fort Hood, Texas, from which he drove to Brawley, California, where his wife was living with her parents and working for a car dealership. In the newspaper, he learned of a job opportunity for Imperial County leading the creation of a public employment program for Vietnam veterans. He worked for Imperial County for five months until he started law school in San Diego. Galyean says he was received well upon his return from Vietnam but mentions a fellow pilot with PTSD who committed suicide. He says his wife excelled as an accountant working for her parents’ car dealership, so she had no problem finding similar work elsewhere. Galyean joined the Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association and attended their convention in San Diego. He was also involved in writing some of the history of the 7-17th CAV. service ; Fort Hood (Tex.) ; Escondido (Calif.) ; newspaper ; law school ; advertisement ; Imperial County (Calif.) ; Public Employment Program ; veteran ; Vietnam ; Vietnam War ; Vietnam veteran ; personnel analyst ; Sacramento (Calif.) ; San Diego (Calif.) ; family ; community ; Navy Marine ; F-4 ; pilot ; car dealer ; high school ; accountant ; Ford ; GM ; Chrysler ; Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association ; convention ; 717th CAV 0 3478 Reflections on Military Service Galyean says it was a godsend that he survived and calls his wife the angel of his life. He thinks it is a natural response that most veterans who have seen combat have some PTSD. He says military service taught him to have faith in the Lord’s will, follow your heart, and defend the U.S. political system. wife ; PTSD ; life lessons ; military service ; war ; veteran ; faith ; attorney ; constitutional system ; government 0 3673 01:01:13 Association with North County San Diego Galyean grew up on his father’s chicken hatchery in San Marcos, California. After spending time on military bases across the country, he and his wife wanted to return to San Diego. Galyean tells the story of how his father migrated from Arkansas to San Marcos and were employed by Fred Williams, who owned multiple businesses in the city. He says that his family never left San Marcos and all of his siblings still reside there. San Marcos (Calif.) ; chicken farm ; chicken hatchery ; Fort Polk ; Louisiana ; Fort Rucker ; Alabama ; Fort Hood ; Texas ; San Diego County (Calif.) ; John Steinbeck ; Grapes of Wrath ; Arkansas ; Fred Williams ; cottage 0 3808 Final Reflections on Military Service and Veterans Galyean emphasizes that the documentary, The Personal Experience - Helicopter Warfare in Vietnam, and the movie, We Were Soldiers, are good representations of his military experience. He wishes more people knew that veterans are “just good, ordinary, responsible people.” He says his experience taught him to love your life and work, do what you love, and do it the best you can. movie ; love ; life ; ordinary ; brotherhood ; veteran ; experience ; responsible 0 Oral history Thomas Earl Galyean was a Captain in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War. He served with the 7-17th CAV as commanding officer of the aero rifle platoon, securing landing zones for aircraft. Galyean then served as an Assistant S3 for the operations section of headquarters, ensuring that aircraft received their assignments. Raised on his family’s chicken hatchery in San Marcos, California, Galyean narrates his family history, his decision to join the U.S. Army, and his interest in helicopter flight. Galyean describes his experience in flight school, including reflections on media representations of military training and the Vietnam War. Galyean describes his unique role while serving stateside, forming a military response team to suppress riots in the wake of the 1968 Democratic National Convention. Galyean meditates on the impact of controversial topics, such as the My Lai massacre, civilian casualties, and the rules of engagement. Galyean reflects on religion, comradery, family, and how the military changed his life. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.985 --> 00:00:57.994 My name is Jason Victor Byer. I'm a graduate of California State University San Marcos. Today I will be interviewing Thomas Galyean. Today's date is Tuesday, November 12, 2024. We are located at the Kellogg Library at California State University San Marcos at 333 South Twin Oaks Valley Road, San Marcos, California 92096. My relationship to the interviewee is that we are both military veterans. The names of people attending this interview are the interviewer, Jason Beyer ; the interviewee, Thomas Galyean ; and Adel Bautista, the camera operator. The purpose of this interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your full name. 00:00:57.994 --> 00:01:00.725 Thomas Earl Galyean. 00:01:00.725 --> 00:01:02.000 Your branch of service. 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:04.635 U.S. Army. 00:01:04.635 --> 00:01:06.484 The highest rank you attained. 00:01:06.484 --> 00:01:08.254 Captain. 00:01:08.254 --> 00:01:11.275 And any war or conflicts you served with. 00:01:11.275 --> 00:01:13.935 The Vietnam War. 00:01:13.935 --> 00:01:21.905 Thank you. So I'll begin by asking you your biographical details. Where were you born? 00:01:21.905 --> 00:01:24.795 San Diego, California. 00:01:24.795 --> 00:01:30.325 Does your family have any past affiliations with the military? 00:01:30.325 --> 00:02:10.544 the Spanish-American War, World War I, and World War II. And my uncle was a B-25 pilot in World War II. And my father though not in the military worked for Consolidated Aircraft, building the B-25. 00:02:10.544 --> 00:02:15.504 Did you hold any jobs prior to entering the military? 00:02:15.504 --> 00:02:34.835 The only job that I had besides working on the chicken farm I grew up on was—I did fight forest fires with the U.S. Forest Service, while I was in college one summer, with the El Cariso Hot Shots. 00:02:34.835 --> 00:02:42.324 When and why did you choose to join the military? Were you drafted or did you enlist? 00:02:42.324 --> 00:04:39.805 Actually, I ended up going to, enlisting through Army ROTC because I graduated from San Marcos High School in 1964. And when I graduated, there was compulsory military service. Everybody in my class who was a male who was physically qualified for combat—if they didn't have a deferment for ROTC, Reserve Officer Training Corps, at some college—were instantly drafted. Everybody else in my class who didn't go on a deferment and who was physically qualified were drafted. So, when I enrolled at UCLA, I took Army ROTC, and that gave me the deferment necessary to complete my degree and then be able to go on active duty as a Lieutenant. So, the one job that I had before that was fighting forest fires. And that particular crew, a month-and-a-half after I went back to school, was caught in the Loop Fire. Twelve of 'em burned to death. A thirteenth one died later. But, so, uh—and that could have been my fate had I not returned to UCLA for ROTC. But in the—seeing what happened and working with those guys and the helitack units—a couple of which helped save a couple of them—interested me in helicopter flight, which is what I ultimately did in the Army. 00:04:39.805 --> 00:04:46.915 You say that you entered into the branch known as the Army. Why did you choose that specific branch? 00:04:46.915 --> 00:05:29.584 Well, actually, I had the choice at that point—because UCLA had the ROTC for the Navy and Marines as well as the Air Force—to do any one of 'em. But I at that point picked the Army because, frankly, it had a year-less time commitment. After I was done with the military—'cause it had one year less than the others did—but then when I ended up volunteering for flight—to fly—then my commitment ended up being the same. 00:05:29.584 --> 00:05:34.774 For your early days of service, what type of training or school did you have? 00:05:34.774 --> 00:17:51.243 First school I had was Armor Officer Basic, because when you graduated as a Second Lieutenant and you were gonna fly, they had already—while I was during my senior year—they had already provided me with fixed wing training. So I learned to fly a fixed wing aircraft. But they then assign you a branch for a combat branch to serve in in the event you don't make it through flight school or—and depending on what branch you ended up with, the type of assignment you got when you got done with a rotary wing flight school. So they assigned me to Armor Officer as an officer in the Armor branch, which meant that as soon as I went on active duty, I went to Officer's basic course at Fort Knox, Kentucky for Armor, where basically they teach you to be a tank platoon leader. And then from there—that was basically a three-month course—then they send you to rotary wing flight school. Now the flight school is in two four-months consecutive portions. The first portion was at Fort Wolters, Texas, and that's where they teach you to fly a helicopter. They used a couple of different aircrafts. The one that I got trained in was what they call the TH-55, which was built by Howard Hughes and Hughes Tool Company, which we then learned to fly in at Fort Wolters, Texas. Now for anybody who really wanted to see what that involved, I just found out here a few months ago that on Amazon Prime there's available a about-an-hour video which is called Personal Experience of Helicopter Pilots in Vietnam (The Personal Experience - Helicopter Warfare in Vietnam). And it shows all the different trainings you got and then different types of experiences that you would have in Vietnam. And the only one in there that didn't, wasn't exactly what I experienced all the time—and I could identify with everything in that movie—was that we were always allowed to return fire if we were fired upon. Because what we did as an Air Cavalry troop, which is what I was in, you had three platoons: one platoon was a platoon of light observation helicopters—OH-6. The idea was we would be assigned an area, and most of my flights were in the Central Highlands area of Vietnam, along and in the vicinity of the Ho Chi Minh Trail—the western boundary of South Vietnam where it bordered up against Laos and Cambodia—and it was all jungle type of activity areas, so they would assigned to us a free-fire zone, they call it a (unintelligible) area, where we knew there were no friendlies at all. The only indigenous population that could be there in some of the places were what were called Montagnards. They were individual little communities of mountain people that lived in little villages that were built up on stakes. You knew where they were, you stayed away from 'em. They stayed away from everybody. They were the—so when we would go into whatever area they would give, if it moved, we could kill it, because it was the only humans we would see would be the enemy. So the way it would work is they would give us an area to work from—and what I mean by that, there'd be a clearing or an area someplace within about a 10 to 15 minute flight from the area where you're supposed to observe and search, where they would take out a fuel truck and there would be a fuel truck for us to be able to land and refill at. And frequently there would be, depending on whether we were working with the 4th Infantry or a South Vietnamese unit, there'd usually be an extra company to a battalion of soldiers there that were friendly soldiers from where we would work. So the scouts would fly in the area, they would try and find the enemy. And above them would be flying a couple of Cobras. The press called them hunter-killer teams of two scouts and two Cobras. And they'd be on station for a couple hours, and we'd be out there with two sets. So they would come off the search and they'd be replaced immediately on station by another team of two scout light observation helicopters and two Cobras. So what would happen—and then I would have—my infantry platoon would be—fly out and land at the staging area, usually. The only time that didn't happen was if the scouts found something before we got landed. And so once the scouts found something, our command and control ship that would be out there with the hunter-killer team, they'd try and assess as quickly as possible what kind of enemy we were looking at—how big the units were there, what was it gonna take to engage. We'd try and get a first landing zone, a place where we get at least hopefully four helicopters, but a minimum of two. And so what we would do is we would take my Hueys (Bell UH-1 Iroquois) with our infantry platoon, and we'd fly into that area first, and we'd put my infantry platoon, which usually went—it was reduced because at that time we were hard—it was hard to get replacements. 20 to 30 infantrymen we would put on the ground first to secure the landing zone. And then if we needed more troops to engage whatever enemy was found, then we would, with my Huey Platoon, be ferrying in the additional troops that were needed into that landing zone. Meanwhile, as soon as the enemy was found, the scouts, if they could, would throw a smoke grenade in the area they wanted hit the hardest. The Cobras would come in there and spray up the area. We always had the—the CNC (command and control) always had extra radios with the frequencies of the closest artillery unit that was usually on a fire base on hill round. And so, they would be able to immediately call in artillery if needed. There were different points that the artillery units that were out there would have marked. We knew where they were, they knew where they were. We'd give 'em the point to fire, to first start firing, and then we would be able to adjust because we had—we were all trained, but our CNC were trained in how to adjust artillery—and so we would adjust artillery, and our CNC always had available tactical air support jets—F-100s, usually—out of Pleiku, Phan Rang, or Bearcat. Those were the three closest Air Force bases that always had F-100s available for immediate response. So we would call in a fire strike—our command and control—which would come in and shoot up the place wherever we wanted a napalm strike. And then we would bring in the rest of whatever infantrymen we wanted to engage the enemy. And then if you ever saw a movie, We Were Soldiers, that movie depicted a lot of what we did just about every day. But, plus, the one thing they learned, that movie was about the very first Air Cavalry operation. But what we learned at that point, because we were always putting people in where there was no other friendly around before dark, we would withdraw all of the people that we'd put on the ground, because there was a decent chance if we didn't, they wouldn't be there the next day. So that's basically the way we would work. If—once we were on the ground, if we had found a bunch of materiel of the enemy, our infantrymen would burn it or capture some of it. If we captured the enemy—and a lot of times we did—then we would fly the enemy to a P.O.W. camp in Pleiku. Frequently we would end up, if somebody—whether it was the enemy or some of our own soldiers that were—had been wounded, we would fly them to the hospital at Pleiku to evacuate them there. And that's basically the general way we worked from day to day. 00:17:51.243 --> 00:17:55.634 Did you receive any promotions? And if so, could you tell me about them? 00:17:55.634 --> 00:31:45.355 Yeah, well, I was—originally I was a programmed to go to Vietnam directly out of flight school, because for the first five or six years of the war, as soon as a class graduated in Fort Rucker, they immediately went to Vietnam. They had a three-year flight commitment, which meant they would go to Vietnam, come home—if they were still around—for a year, and then go back for a second year in Vietnam. But because of when I graduated from flight school—I mean I was fortunate. I was fortunate because I ended up an extra two months after the first half of flight school because my wife was pregnant and she was about ready to deliver. And the flight surgeons and her doctor at Fort Wolters said it was not safe for us to travel and her to move to Fort Rucker. Since my commitment started at the end of flight school, they said, "We'll just let you join a later class"—which is what happened. So the class that I originally started with, started the second half, about a month before I ended up starting. And as it turned out, two weeks before we graduated from the second part of flight school, which was during our tactics and combat training in a Huey, I got a stateside tour first. So I was—because of the way that it worked, I was a First Lieutenant by the time I got done with flight school. And then I ended up, as a First Lieutenant, going to Fort Hood to the First Armored Division where I was the flight operations officer for the division. Now, I had a very interesting job when I got there because besides being in charge of the flight operations, making sure all the pilots that were at Fort Hood from in the First Armored Division that were between tours of Vietnam got all their flight time, 'cause they still had to fly. But at that point in time, the year—in 1968 there had been riots at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago. And so the president had ordered that there be developed a program—because it took so long to get soldiers and National Guard to Chicago for that riot to have an immediate response team. Some teams already set up to where if there was some kind of a riot in the United States that needed to have military control, they didn't run into the problem they had run into at the Chicago Convention of getting them there in time to do a lot of good. So my job was to work with the Air Force there first and organize a situation where we had a Mechanized Infantry Battalion from the First Armored Division on standby to meet with a bunch of Air Force C-130s at Gray Air Force Base—which was right next to Fort Hood, which was where we were—where they could at a moment's notice—they called the drill twice. We did it twice while I was there. Where they would say, we need to scramble like we were going to some place. So, we had it organized, which the—where the Air Force C-130s would come from and marry up with the Mechanized Infantry Battalion of the First Armored Division that was to be used to get 'em over there, load them, take 'em up and fly 'em around for a few hours to make sure, you know, that the timing was such, we could get 'em gone as quickly as possible, you know? (Galyean smiles and laughs.) And so that was kind of a screwy job. Nobody ever had it before. But that was one of the things I got to do. So that, and during that period of time, because for that first six months that I was there, I was the Flight Operations Officer, we'd have—when a Huey got a thousand hours or whatever it was of flight time in Vietnam, they would bring them back to be rebuilt—put in a new engine and do all kinds of rebuild to these aircraft that were still in shape to be rebuilt. And they would fly 'em into Gray Air Force base, take off the tail rotors and the tail boom and the rotors. And they would fly 'em over, put 'em back together there at Gray Air Force Base, and then we would get pilots there who—and we're talking 30 aircraft at a time, 30 or 40—we would just have fly down to Brownsville, which is where they were rebuilt, and then bring them back, and then the next week there'd be a bunch. So that's basically what I was doing the first six months. The second six months that I was there, I was the commanding officer of this aviation support detachment, of which the headquarters was a little part of—which is part of the 501st Supply and Transport Battalion, and the whole mission and ability of that aviation support detachment was—they gave—we had some Deuce-and-a-Halfs with a lot of PSP, pierced steel planking, that we could go out and set up a runway that the Air Force could bring in that would be a portable runway. The theory was when you're in an armored division and you're moving as hopefully you'd be moving like we saw later in Desert Storm, you'd have the ability to take with the armored division its own airport. And we had a little G.C.A. (Ground-Controlled Approach), which was a radar unit that you could call down aircraft through a cloud, you know, and a little control tower that was on a trailer that you could pull. So basically you could have your own airfield with the armored division as it was moving. So that was my job for the second six months. But by the time I was then—I went to Vietnam, I was a captain. I was—I'd had a six month commanding officer experience as a company commander of this aviation support detachment. So when I got to Vietnam for the T.O.R.—the Table of Organization—when they, I got there, they assigned me to an Air Cavalry troop. The Air Cavalry troop being consisted of three Air Cavalry—I mean, the Air Cavalry Squadron had three Air Cavalry troops and a maintenance troop. And so each one of these Air Cavalry troops would be the separate units that would go out and have a certain area to look at and to study. So I was then a Captain, which called for—when I got there, they made me the commanding officer of the aero rifle platoon, which consisted of 10 Hueys of which four or five we needed to fly every mission. And then the other two platoons—of the other platoons of Air Cavalry troop were the scout platoon, that had a dozen light observation helicopters with a pilot for each and a door gunner crew chief for each ; and a dozen Huey Cobras, gunships, and the pilots for those. So, like I say, I had the rifle platoon, so what we did was bring in my platoon every day to wherever we were gonna be to secure a landing zone if we needed one to engage the enemy. And then at the end of the day, whatever we'd put in to fight the enemy, we'd take 'em back at the end of the day. And, during the six months that I did that, it was basically, out of a week, we would probably have an average of five days that we would actually fly. Sundays were always a maintenance day, and we could pretty well count on one of the days during Monday through Saturday for some reason, whether we had too many shot down or not enough flyable because it takes a lot of maintenance to keep a helicopter in the air. We used to figure an hour of maintenance times for an hour of flight time for a Huey, and for a Cobra and an OH-6, an hour-and-a-half to two hours of maintenance time for every hour of flight. So, that's what we would do for an average, I'd say, of like five days a week for the six months that I was there in that position. Now, the last half of my time in Vietnam—and I was still as a Captain, which is what I did for the rest of the time—I was in the headquarters. And in the headquarters I was what they called an Assistant S3—S3 being the operations section of the headquarters. And my job was, for part of the time, to man the control center, which meant that we would assign the Air Cavalry squadron—also worked in conjunction with a couple of attack helicopter companies. And our headquarters would get in the assignments for what aircraft in our area needed to be supplied to what units. We'd get the—and we usually would get that by about midnight—then by two or three in the morning, hopefully we would have received from each unit's maintenance how many aircraft they had that were flyable. So we could sit there and we immediately assign what aircraft units were gonna supply what aircraft to what units, you know, to support, so we could get 'em out to where they could fly—take off as soon as the sun came up. And that's basically what I did for the last six months. 00:31:45.355 --> 00:31:56.214 What was the hardest part of military lifestyle for you to adapt to? 00:31:56.214 --> 00:38:12.885 Oh, I would say just Vietnam in general. The—it was harder probably for my wife. If you ever saw the movie We Were Soldiers by Mel Gibson, that's the only movie I've ever seen that really showed what our wives went through. But it didn't take very long to adjust though, because you had to adjust real fast (laughs). You didn't have much, much choice. The—one of the—people have asked me a lot what it was like to fly over there. And as a matter of fact, somebody had posted and asked on Facebook for some—on the website for the Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association—for people to describe what it was like. Well, probably the best thing I've ever read that describes what it was like to fly in a Huey one of the missions like we flew on was something written by John Steinbeck. It turned out that John Steinbeck's wife and Lady Bird (Claudia Alta "Lady Bird" Johnson) were very close friends in college. So L.B.J. (Lyndon B. Johnson) commissioned John Steinbeck to go to Vietnam for a year, do as many things as he could, and send back daily dispatches that went to LBJ. And they got published at some time in a magazine, but ultimately the University of Virginia a few years ago collected all these and published them. And there is a three or four page dispatch that he wrote that describes his experience in flying out of Pleiku on a Air Cavalry operation in which he was flying out of the same exact place that we flew out of, into the same area with an Air Cavalry troop, a couple of years before I was there. So, anybody who wanted to read something, that's all they gotta do is Google: Helicopter, John Steinbeck, and Vietnam. And it'll pop right up and you can read it. That's—now for other means to be able to see what it was like, I saw here a month or two ago on Amazon Prime, they had done a documentary—it's about an hour long—of personal experiences of Vietnam helicopter pilots. All you gotta do is Google that, if you're on Amazon Prime, and it'll come up with this one-hour presentation that goes through the steps of flight school and then what it was like flying there. And I experienced just about everything you can see in that video, except one thing: one of the units evidently said they were not allowed to return fire if they were shot at without specific authority after that. We always had the right—as far as our unit knew—to return fire if fired upon. There was a point in time when they came down and said we couldn't fire until we were fired upon. But that presented a problem for the scouts, because usually the first way they would find the enemy—and when they would find them, the enemy would find them and start shooting at 'em. So if you didn't—if they didn't fire first, well, the usual way that the scouts would do it is if they saw the enemy, they'd target the enemy, shoot to break off, so they could get away. And then the Cobras would come down and rake the area. And then we'd bring in whatever else. So we always had the power to return fire, our unit did. And frequently our scouts had to shoot first or they were dead by the time they found the enemy. But other than that, I think that one hour documentary just about shows everything that guys experienced that—and I could identify with all of it. 00:38:12.885 --> 00:38:20.875 What were your interactions like with local cultures and the people you encountered during deployment? 00:38:20.875 --> 00:45:30.755 During the period of time that I was the Assistant S3, scheduling things and running the operation center during the day when there was an emergency—something had to be done, they'd call in and we'd scramble whatever ship—because we always had standby ships available for emergencies. There was a situation that happened—and frankly the unit I was in, was the only unit that ever had a complete history that was written afterwards, 7-17th CAV (7th Squadron, 17th Cavalry Regiment), that from which they solicited recollections of actual pilots and crews from the battle plan (Galyean's cellphone rings and he silences it) things of all of the different units in the 7-17th., and it described it a little bit in this. What happened was, you see the rockets that were fired from helicopter from a Cobra or a Huey, when they used the Huey B models for gunships, were from rocket pods that that were developed for jets—for the F-4, the F-100, which is a very solid platform. Now with a Huey and a Cobra—with the type of rotor system they have, which was a single rotor—every time that the rotor is perpendicular to the direction of flight, you get a little (Galyean bounces once in his chair) bump, a little increase lift. And so you're always like this—(Galyean bounces side to side in his chair)—when you're flying. And you—that's that (Galyean points up, twirls his finger, and imitates a helicopter sound) wha, wha, wha, wha, wha that you hear when you hear a Huey go by. And they didn't have for those all of the solid state electoral connections for the firing operations like the jets had. Some of the things had to be soldered as part of making it work for that kind of aircraft. When you do this (Galyean bounces in his seat) to soldered electrical wires, sometimes they become disconnected. And so occasionally what would happen is it would get disconnected and when they would try to fire a rocket, it wouldn't fire. So there was a procedure that we would do when that happened—'cause it would happen from time to time. You'd take that—that Cobra would fly to the nearest Air Force base, where they always had a place that you could, at the Air Force base, that you could land, you could hover over to and sit down, and they would remove the—they had the ability to remove that pod and then disarm it so nobody accidentally got hurt. And so we had this—I got this call that a—one of the Cobras for one of our troops that had been working up north along the beach area had had a misfire on one of these rockets. And that the rocket had hit on the beach near where a little boy was playing, and he got some injury to his leg. So I scrambled a Huey to go out there and pick him up and his mother and take him to the—we were near Qui Nhon at that point—to the hospital at Qui Nhon to tend to his injury. Well this was a couple of years after an incident that happened at a place called My Lai, where an infantry Lieutenant had allowed his unit to shoot up some civilians in a village and they couldn't without really identifying for sure that they were the enemy. And as a result of that incident with this Lieutenant Calley (Lieutenant William Calley) and My Lai, there was a standing order, like the military does from time to time, where somebody screws up, they go to the leaders above that to try to analyze what could that higher leader have done to prepare for—to make sure it doesn't happen again. Did he chastise 'em for not having done whatever they felt they should have done? But at that point in time, then there became a standing order that if there was a civilian casualty as a result of our operation, there would be investigated to make sure as to whether or not it was intentional or whether it was accidental. So I get this call to take, to go investigate—and it just so happened we had in our headquarters at that time, what we call the Kit Carson Scout, that was an NVA (North Vietnamese Army) First Lieutenant who had defected. And as a matter of fact, he'd worked with my platoon on the ground, so I was very familiar with him 'cause I'd been on the ground with him in operations. And so I took this—and we went over to the hospital, which was only less than a half-hour drive in a Jeep. So we went over there to interview the mother. And when we got there and the mother found out why we were there, her comment was, "I know it was a mistake, I know it was an accident, don't chastise the pilot because he might get mad and not come back to help protect us from the Vietcong." So I thought that was kind of a unique experience. 00:45:30.755 --> 00:45:35.355 Was there something that you did for good luck while you were in Vietnam? 00:45:35.355 --> 00:45:40.684 Prayed a lot. 00:45:40.684 --> 00:45:46.885 What did you do for recreation or when you were off duty? 00:45:46.885 --> 00:48:42.355 Well, when we were off, like on the days we didn't fly for summer or on the Sundays, we'd relax, play music. Because Saturdays—because Sundays were always a down day for maintenance—we would usually on Saturday nights—and on Sundays were usually the day that we had new guys coming in and the old guys going out. When you arrived, you knew if you were living at the end of your tour, the day you already knew when you were going home. And so it was always on Sundays—so we had people leaving and more people coming in. So we had kind of a situation where, what we used to do is if you were one of the one or two or three of the officers who were—or pilots—who were gonna be leaving the follow a week after that, you would throw a party for the guys who were leaving the next day. And so what would you do? You get drunk, and you just have a party. (Galyean laughs) I had kind of a funny situation if we were able to do. Because of when I was in the 501st Supply Transport Battalion, the guy who was the commanding officer of the food distribution for the First Armored Division and I were good friends, because we were in the same battalion, and he had just happened to be responsible for the food distribution for the Army in Qui Nhon in the area that we were. And I was able to call him, and—because he was so close—and he got us a couple of cases of steaks for our party. And that morning—that Saturday morning, since we were able to—we were near a place called Tuy Hoa where there were lobster boats that came in every morning. We flew out and landed on the beach, and our Mess Sergeant went with us with, and we got a bunch of live lobsters that he took back and immediately put in a boiling pot, 'cause they had to be boiled while they were alive. So we—our party that night had steak and lobster (Galyean laughs). But I mean, that was the kind of things you did for recreation, and that was about it in our unit. 00:48:42.355 --> 00:48:52.054 What kind of friendships and camaraderie did you form while serving and with whom? 00:48:52.054 --> 00:49:43.304 Every single one of my infantrymen and the pilots I knew, we were like brothers. There was never any problem when we would have a scout go down and we weren't sure the condition. I had infantrymen volunteering at any time to repel down there to help 'em and help get 'em out. You know, Jason. You're brothers. So— 00:49:43.304 --> 00:49:51.844 How did you stay in touch with family and friends? Did you choose to keep communication with them while deployed? 00:49:51.844 --> 00:50:30.425 Um—(Galyean laughs)—you really didn't have much time. While I was in Vietnam, I'd write a letter to my wife frequently. But after that, yes. I from time to time have kept in touch with some of the guys, as I have with some of the guys that I was visiting who were burned from that fire when I was in the forest service. But yeah. 00:50:30.425 --> 00:50:39.594 So now we're coming towards your end of service. Do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you when your service ended? 00:50:39.594 --> 00:50:43.505 Fort Hood, Texas. And yes, I do remember (Galyean laughs). 00:50:43.505 --> 00:50:47.005 Did you return home or where did you go? 00:50:47.005 --> 00:53:55.625 From there, my wife's parents at the time had moved from the Escondido area. They lived in Brawley. He had a car dealership then, down there. So I went to—we drove back across the—from Fort Hood, Texas to their place. First I picked up a newspaper. I was scheduled to go to law school. So when I got out it was April, and I was scheduled to start law school in the fall. And I just happened to pick up a newspaper and there was an advertisement for somebody at the—to work at the county of Imperial as—and they wanted a vet. And it was because the government, as it turned out, had just passed a law. It was something they called the PEP program, which was a program for—public employment program—for Vietnam vets. And what they were trying to do is get state and local governments to come up with jobs for vets that were coming out of the Vietnam War now, because now we're standing down. We're getting outta Vietnam. And so it just so happened they needed somebody to administer the beginning of their program so—for the county of Imperial. So they hired me as a personnel analyst to go to Sacramento for a weekend to help figure out the rules of how this was gonna work and then start the plan and program for the county of Imperial. So then I was going around to school districts and different city governments and everything, trying to get them to come up with a job, and then the government would pay half of the salary with the idea they would do that for the first year, and then hopefully the public employer would continue in the future. And so I did that from the time that I got out of the Army for the county of Imperial for basically five months until law school started for me in San Diego. 00:53:55.625 --> 00:54:02.275 How were you received by your family and community when you returned back from Vietnam? 00:54:02.275 --> 00:55:00.675 Well, well frankly, because my family was always very supportive, and of course then I was at Fort Hood, so I mean—and when I was in law school, which was—and working for the PEP program and then in law school—I was well received. The only thing that was kind of a real bummer was the other pilot in my unit that had been a Navy Marine F-4 pilot evidently had PTSD so bad that on our contracts final, at the end of the first year, he stuck his head in an oven and killed himself. 00:55:00.675 --> 00:55:06.005 How did you readjust to civilian life? You said you went back to law school? 00:55:06.005 --> 00:56:50.824 Yeah, I went to law school, and let's just say I was highly motivated (laughs). I really worked. And my wife's father had always been a car dealer, and she had while she was in high school worked as an accountant for him—'cause there's a—it's a—car dealerships have an incredibly complex accounting system, particularly since they gotta have parts for just every kind of car, you know,? If you're a Ford, you gotta be able to repair GM, Chrysler, et cetera. So you got a complete inventory and financial accounting for the different parts sections. And she had did that when she was in high school for her dad. So she had no problem while we were, while I was in law school in San Diego. The first car dealership she walked into hired her on the spot to do accounting for them for parts. And so she had no problem adapting really, really quickly, 'cause she got a job doing exactly what she had done while she was in high school and what she did somewhat while I was in Vietnam for her dad. They lived—she lived with her parents. She and my son lived with her parents while I was in Vietnam. 00:56:50.824 --> 00:56:56.000 Did you join any veterans organizations after you returned home? 00:56:56.000 --> 00:57:58.000 Yeah, I did. Eventually when they came up with this Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association, I joined that and went to their convention when it was in San Diego and participated in a couple of activities that they had and was involved in the writing of the history of the 7-17th CAV, because it turned out the guy that replaced me in Vietnam was the one who did all the work to get all of the after-action reports from all of the different units and generated this history. And then he would send it to people before the last edition was published to be able to add to it what their old personal recollections were. So I worked on that with him, but that was about it. 00:57:58.000 --> 00:58:09.585 So we're moving on to reflections. How has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:58:09.585 --> 00:59:43.315 My faith. I think it was a godsend that I was—I survived. And my wife, she was—she's the angel of my life. And she's a very spiritual person. I think it—particularly through what I've been going through—appreciate what veterans have gone through since then. And it's—I cannot fathom that there are very many veterans that have seen the things that most veterans who are part of the point of the sword in any of these war activities wouldn't have to some degree some PTSD—would just be human. I'm sure you know. 00:59:43.315 --> 00:59:53.905 What are some life lessons you learned from military service? 00:59:53.905 --> 01:00:21.114 Always do your best and have faith that the Lord's will will be presumed—will occur—if you give it a chance—if you follow your heart. 01:00:21.114 --> 01:00:33.414 What message would you like to leave for future generations who will view or hear this interview? 01:00:33.414 --> 01:01:13.934 I've spent the rest of my life as an attorney. I would say without a doubt, this constitutional system that we have is probably the best governments—governance—system there is, and it's worth defending. 01:01:13.934 --> 01:01:21.184 How did you become associated with the San Diego North County region? 01:01:21.184 --> 01:03:28.000 Well, I grew up in San Marcos on a chicken farm. My dad had a chicken hatchery. And so it wasn't hard when you've been places like Fort Polk, Louisiana ; Fort Rucker, Alabama ; Fort Hood, Texas ; to come home and realize that San Diego County is a good place to come home to. So that's why my wife and I knew that's where we wanted to come back to. Same reason my dad, when he was—my dad settled ultimately in San Marcos because if you ever read John Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath, my father and his uncle and cousins, when they lost or were losing their little walnut ranch in Arkansas, came out and were traveling all over picking crops and doing that. And when they got to San Marcos, a guy gave him a job at that point, and he decided, This is where I want to live. And this is where he—so that's—it was a guy's name, was Fred Williams. Fred Williams had a square dance barn, he had the first gas station, and he gave my dad a job there. He had these four little cottages that were adobe cottages. My dad got his mother and three younger siblings here. And we never—he never left and we never left. We came back, as did all of my siblings. 01:03:28.000 --> 01:03:44.864 Thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of military service. In conclusion, is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never have? 01:03:44.864 --> 01:04:01.554 No, I think I've probably just about hit—I mean, like I say, all you gotta do is see those two—see that one—those two movies, and you'll understand exactly what I'm talking about. 01:04:01.554 --> 01:04:10.485 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 01:04:10.485 --> 01:05:09.905 There just good, ordinary, responsible people. And they've experienced some things that I think give them an understanding of what our society is worth and what it means to be a part of a brotherhood. They experienced it. 01:05:09.905 --> 01:05:16.914 In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 01:05:16.914 --> 01:05:29.000 Love life. Love what you're doing, do what you love, and do it the best that you can. 01:05:29.000 --> 01:05:32.704 Thank you for your time today. 01:05:32.704 --> 01:05:34.204 You got it. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GalyeanThomas_BeyerJason_2024-11-12_access.xml GalyeanThomas_BeyerJason_2024-11-12_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Galyean, Thomas. Interview November 12th, 2024. Description An account of the resource Thomas Earl Galyean was a Captain in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War. He served with the 7-17th CAV as commanding officer of the aero rifle platoon, securing landing zones for aircraft. Galyean then served as an Assistant S3 for the operations section of headquarters, ensuring that aircraft received their assignments. Raised on his family’s chicken hatchery in San Marcos, California, Galyean narrates his family history, his decision to join the U.S. Army, and his interest in helicopter flight. Galyean describes his experience in flight school, including reflections on media representations of military training and the Vietnam War. Galyean describes his unique role while serving stateside, forming a military response team to suppress riots in the wake of the 1968 Democratic National Convention. Galyean meditates on the impact of controversial topics, such as the My Lai massacre, civilian casualties, and the rules of engagement. Galyean reflects on religion, comradery, family, and how the military changed his life. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-071 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-12 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thomas Galyean Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army—Veterans Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Poultry farms United States. Forest Service El Cariso Hotshots (Calif.) Reserve Officers' Training Corps San Marcos High School (San Marcos, Calif.) University of California, Los Angeles Loop Fire, Calif., 1966 Air pilots—Training of Fort Wolters (Tex.) Fort Knox (Ky.) Bell AH-1 Cobra (Attack helicopter) Phan Rang (Vietnam) Bearcat (Vietnam) Napalm Fort Rucker (Ala.) Fort Hood (Tex.) Democratic National Convention (1968 : Chicago, Ill.) Gray Air Force Base (Tex.) Ground-controlled approach (Aeronautics) Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association United States. Army. 7th Cavalry Regiment University of Virginia My Lai Massacre, Vietnam, 1968 Legal education—United States Lawyers Fort Polk (La.) Ho Chi Minh Trail (Vietnam) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Texas California Kentucky Vietnam Tây Nguyên (Vietnam) Vietnam (Republic : 1954-1975) Laos Cambodia Chicago (Ill.) Brownsville (Tex.) Brawley (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) Imperial County (Calif.) Sacramento (Calif.) Louisiana Alabama Arkansas Pleiku (Vietnam) Phan Rang (Vietnam) Biên Hòa (Vietnam) Qui Nhon (Vietnam) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Thomas Galyean License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/49655703ca9580fa7a280e4ff737314a.pdf 39f896b95a878e35d72cb83b35512638 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Galyean, Thomas. Interview Transcript, November 12, 2024. Description An account of the resource Thomas Earl Galyean was a Captain in the U.S. Army during the Vietnam War. He served with the 7-17th CAV as commanding officer of the aero rifle platoon, securing landing zones for aircraft. Galyean then served as an Assistant S3 for the operations section of headquarters, ensuring that aircraft received their assignments. Raised on his family’s chicken hatchery in San Marcos, California, Galyean narrates his family history, his decision to join the U.S. Army, and his interest in helicopter flight. Galyean describes his experience in flight school, including reflections on media representations of military training and the Vietnam War. Galyean describes his unique role while serving stateside, forming a military response team to suppress riots in the wake of the 1968 Democratic National Convention. Galyean meditates on the impact of controversial topics, such as the My Lai massacre, civilian casualties, and the rules of engagement. Galyean reflects on religion, comradery, family, and how the military changed his life. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thomas Galyean Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Adel Bautista Justin Gans Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-12 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Texas California Kentucky Vietnam Tây Nguyên (Vietnam) Vietnam (Republic : 1954-1975) Laos Cambodia Chicago (Ill.) Brownsville (Tex.) Brawley (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) Imperial County (Calif.) Sacramento (Calif.) Louisiana Alabama Arkansas Pleiku (Vietnam) Pleiku (Vietnam) Phan Rang (Vietnam) Biên Hòa (Vietnam) Qui Nhon (Vietnam) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Thomas Galyean Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GalyeanThomas_BeyerJason_2024-11-12_transcript Subject The topic of the resource United States. Army—Veterans Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Poultry farms United States. Forest Service El Cariso Hotshots (Calif.) Reserve Officers' Training Corps San Marcos High School (San Marcos, Calif.) University of California, Los Angeles Loop Fire, Calif., 1966 Air pilots—Training of Fort Wolters (Tex.) Fort Knox (Ky.) Bell AH-1 Cobra (Attack helicopter) Napalm Fort Rucker (Ala.) Fort Hood (Tex.) Democratic National Convention (1968 : Chicago, Ill.) Gray Air Force Base (Tex.) Ground-controlled approach (Aeronautics) Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association United States. Army. 7th Cavalry Regiment University of Virginia My Lai Massacre, Vietnam, 1968 Legal education—United States Lawyers Fort Polk (La.) Ho Chi Minh Trail (Vietnam) Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/307a34c67c2bd0e56896a2c507385617.jpg 4527aa5752593223ac347949842d8c4d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Galyean, Thomas. Photograph, 1970. Description An account of the resource Photo related to the oral history of Thomas Galyean. Photograph depicts Galyean posing for a newly purchased camera with a timer for taking photos at Camp Holloway, Pleiku, Vietnam, 1970. Click on the thumbnail to view the full image in more detail. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1970 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d9cf5d974d272b03329628f0fffc2932.png 3e44c45674bdbece890894aea010dde0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GalyeanT_250px https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e39a7269adfb6f617332ddb8b0f26292.pdf 93a95fbeaad3844a182564173482e50e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Gilmore, Geoffrey. Interview transcript, April 14th, 2021. Description An account of the resource Dr. Geoffrey Gilmore played a key role in the development of the Black Student Center at CSUSM. In this interview, Gilmore touches on the issues of Black people within academic spaces and his experience helping students to succeed on a university level. Dr. Gilmore also discusses his own history as he moved from Los Angeles to Seattle, and back to California. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Geoffrey Gilmore Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sierra Jenkins Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-14 Subject The topic of the resource Activism, Student Anti-Black Racism California State University San Marcos, Black Student Center Student Success, Black Black experience in America Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Los Angeles (Calif.) Seattle (Wash.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en." target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Geoffrey Gilmore Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_transcript Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sierra Jenkins Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Geoffrey Gilmore OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Black Student Center OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Gilmore, Geoffrey. Interview April 14th, 2021. SC027-04 01:12:56 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection Campus oral histories CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. &#13 ; csusm Black Student Center student success California State University San Marcos Black experience Geoffrey Gilmore Sierra Jenkins moving image GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5092b218abace83b431090029a7e6156.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 36 Childhood Gilmore briefly discusses his childhood growing up in Seattle and his feeling of isolation without close family. Seattle ; Los Angeles ; isolation ; family 0 177 Developing an understanding of Blackness Gilmore speaks about how his understanding of blackness came mostly from books, documentaries, lectures, and his family and peers. self-education ; informal education 0 300 Learning about Black history and the Black experience in childhood and adolescence Gilmore talks about her exposure to Black history in school, which was largely misinformation and seen through a lens of whiteness. Black history ; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ; Malcom X ; Civil Rights Movement ; Black Panthers ; power ; teacher 0 680 College experience Gilmore reflects on his time in college at Washington State University. In contrast to his earlier education experience, he was able to take Black studies courses and interact with a diversity of Black people. He talks in length about a television series titled “Them” and how its premise and conclusion has impacted him. Black history ; Black studies ; Black and white relations ; Them television series ; racism ; power dynamic 0 1703 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements Gilmore reflects on his main philosophy that is Black empowerment through education. He has spent his career helping students to realize how they can succeed in education and in their careers. educational philosophy ; student success ; empowerment through education ; student struggle ; student learning ; remedial education 0 2624 Early focus of the Black Student Center's initiatives, programming, events Gilmore speaks about many events sponsored by the Black Student Center. From his perspective, the main purpose of the Center was to be focused on education and student success. Black Student Center ; education ; learning ; events ; Kwanzaa ; Black Panters ; Tulsa Massacre ; Black health 0 2992 Gilmore's role in establishing the Black Student Center Gilmore speaks about his role in establishing the Center, including his initial oversight of the Center. From his perspective, the main purpose of the Center was to be focused on education and student success. Black Student Center ; student success ; Dr. Gail Cole-Avent ; John Rawlins III ; Jake Northington ; organizational structure 0 3147 The process of creating the Black Student Center Gilmore discusses the initial push by students for a Black Student Center. Black Student Center ; meeting ; President Karen Haynes ; formal request 0 3295 Leaders of the Black Student Center project, their contributions, and unsung heroes Gilmore mentions how to find a list of people who were involved in establishing the Black Student Center. He also talks about the faculty and staff working behind the scenes on this student-driven initiative Black Student Center website ; CSUSM faculty ; CSUSM staff ; student-driven 0 3441 University Administration’s vision for the Black Student Center Gilmore speaks about the priorities for the Black Student Center being student success, engagement, and involvement. The Black Student Center was moved from Student Academic Support Services to Student Life. Black Student Center ; student success ; student engagement ; Student Academic Support Services ; Student Life 0 3607 Opposition to the creation of the Black Student Center Gilmore briefly speaks to campus worries about the establishment of a Black Student Center on campus. Black Student Center ; white student center ; pushback 0 3732 Experiencing the Grand Opening of the Black Student Center/BSC's impact on the campus communitiy Gilmore reflects on the grand opening of the Center, especially the emphasis on creating relationships with the local Black community. grand opening ; relationships ; local service area ; Black Student Unions ; pipeline ; community members ; careers ; National Association for the Advancement of Colored People ; Jack and Jill organization ; conference 0 4118 Personal impact of the Black Student Center on Gilmore Gilmore reflects on how the educational events and connection with students in the Black Student Center impacted him. educational events ; student connection 0 4273 Future expectations of the Black Student Center Future expectations of the Black Student Center. Gilmore shares his expectation for taking the Black Student Center to the next level. Dr. Gail Cole-Avent ; John Rawlins III ; student success ; graduation 0 oral history Dr. Geoffry Gilmore specifically touches on the issues of Black people within academic spaces and his experience helping students to succeed on a university level. Dr. Gilmore also discusses his own history as he moved from Los Angeles to Seattle, and back to California. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:00.000 Today is Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at two zero eight p.m. I am Sierra Jenkins, student at CSU San Marcos, and today I'm interviewing Dr. Geoffrey Gilmore for the Black Student Center oral history project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Student Canter and CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Dr. Gilmore, thank you for being here with me today. How are you doing? Geoffrey Gilmore: I'm doing well. Thank you. Jenkins: Glad to hear it. So I'm just gonna' jump right in. So our first question for today is where were you born and where did you grow up? Gilmore: I was born in, I was born in, in Los Angeles, California, and I grew up in Seattle, Washington. Jenkins: How was it growing up in Seattle as compared to Los Angeles? Gilmore: It was different, you know, it was, you know, it was a lot, it was a lot different. 00:01:00.000 --> 00:02:00.000 It was isolating in the sense that, in the sense that, that the family that we had here in California was very expansive. We have a lot of family who had migrated and settled and stayed in the Los Angeles area for a long time. And so I've got a lot of family in the Los Angeles area and particularly in Pasadena, California, and you know, in Washington, when we moved up there, that wasn't the case. I think, a little later on, we had a couple of cousins 00:02:00.000 --> 00:03:00.000 who were up there, but, who had moved up there, but other than that there wasn't, there were not, there were not that many. So yeah, it was different. Jenkins: How old were you when you moved to Seattle? Gilmore: I was, I was very young. I was four years old. Jenkins: Okay. And how old were you when you moved back out to California? Gilmore: When I moved back to California, I was, I was 30. Jenkins: Oh, wow. So you definitely grew up in Seattle completely. Gilmore: Right. Jenkins: How did you come to your understanding of Blackness? Gilmore: A lot of it, I would say a lot of it came from 00:03:00.000 --> 00:04:00.000 experience and then there was, family as well. And then on top of that, there was the education I received. And I will emphasize that when I say education, I'm not talking about education in the formal sense of school, although school did attempt to educate me to accept what the role that society had actually established for Black people in this country. But, you know, it was more so self-education, as well as informal 00:04:00.000 --> 00:05:00.000 experiences, where maybe peers or other members within the Black community had actually referred me to information from different books, documentaries, and, having attended different lectures, all that kind of stuff. So educationally, it was largely informal but then, of course, like I said, there's the life experience as well as, the education that came from family. Jenkins: Thank you for that. What were you taught in childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black experience? Gilmore: It's 00:05:00.000 --> 00:06:00.000 interesting that you asked that question. Really when it came down to Black experience, what I was educated is that in school in particular, is that Black people are in a lower social class than white people. And really than anybody else in the world that we are at the bottom when it comes to when it comes to social class, based on race and was also educated--actually, I'll tell you what--I'll tell you a story that sort of underscores what that was. I can remember, I believe it may have been 00:06:00.000 --> 00:07:00.000 in the fourth grade that this really occurred. We were learning about, I guess, quote, Black history in the classroom, and it was all about slavery and the struggle of the Black people in the Civil Rights Movement, and how Martin Luther King was this great person because he encouraged the struggle to be non-violent, whereas Malcolm X and the Black Panthers were violent, racist, haters of white people and wanted to kill white people and 00:07:00.000 --> 00:08:00.000 all this kind of stuff. And as she went into that part of our education, I can remember that one of the white students in the class had raised his hand and asked the teacher a question, and the question that he asked was if we were to ever let Black people have power then would they put us in slavery and do the same things to us that we've done to them. And the teacher thought about the question for a moment and really her answer to that question reinforced what the intention 00:08:00.000 --> 00:09:00.000 of that lesson was, right? And really, reinforced what the whole message about power in this country is all, as it pertains to race, is all about. And her answer to the question was you know that's a really good question. I don't know. And so the thing is, just in looking at, in really unpacking that question and what the student was asking, first of all just in asking, if we ever let Black people have power, first of all, that means that the white people have the 00:09:00.000 --> 00:10:00.000 power, and the only way that Black people can ever have power is if the white people let Black people have power. Right? And so that's the first thing. And then, the second thing was this fear that what they have imposed on Black people would be reciprocated back to them and all of that. Right? And just in what the teacher was saying all of that message was the message that she clearly intended to get across given the answer to that question. And that answer basically confirmed that, yes, her intent was to--what's to say that white people have all the power 00:10:00.000 --> 00:11:00.000 and the only way Black people can ever have power is if white people let them have power? And that it is a real fear of white people that Black people with power would return the evil that has been imposed on our people. So that was the gist of the formal education that I was given about Black people in school. And I can tell you that really from year to year moving on from there, and even before that, that was the message that was being delivered. That was the, that was what we were being educated to 00:11:00.000 --> 00:12:00.000 believe. Jenkins: That's horrible. That's such an interesting story to have experienced in fourth grade. What did you learn after adolescence prior to coming to CSUSM? Gilmore: Well, there's a whole lot of time in between adolescence and CSUSM. So, I would say--I guess you're talking about, after I left high school, correct? Jenkins: Yes. Gilmore: Okay. So when I left high school and went to college, it was different. And it was different in the sense that while 00:12:00.000 --> 00:13:00.000 attending a predominantly white college, or university, I also, the company I kept was largely Black. We had a sizable enough Black community at Washington State that really was who I was with the majority of the time I was there, you know? And so educationally speaking, it was different in the sense that, at this point I'm actually--I could actually take Black studies courses 00:13:00.000 --> 00:14:00.000 and actually learn more in a formal educational setting about Black people in this country and around the world. On top of that, there was the informal education, that was in the same vein, along the same vein of what I had mentioned before with peers and with other people in the community and what--really just being referred to different books, different documentaries, all that kind of stuff. And even in special lectures and all that kind of stuff. And even that, 00:14:00.000 --> 00:15:00.000 looking at a lot of these things on my own, that was a big part, but also, I would say that interacting with people who had come to Washington State from a continent, that was a huge educational experience in itself as well. And to be able to learn more about the continent and about what had, what had actually gone on the continent beyond slavery, beyond the slave trade, was a very illuminating experience. And so that kind of gets back to your previous 00:15:00.000 --> 00:16:00.000 question about what I learned about Black people growing up. And one thing that I would say that I walked away from my K-12 experience with was the warped understanding that Africa was all about National Geographic or apartheid, one of the two. And so therefore, my perspective was that anybody from, anybody who I met from Africa, either lived in apartheid under the apartheid system, being oppressed by white people, or they live like National Geographic in the bush. And that was my understanding 00:16:00.000 --> 00:17:00.000 coming out of high school and it was very illuminating to be able to go to college and actually get to know and interact with people who had come over to the United States from the continent and get their college education at Washington State like I did. And in doing that, that understanding or that misunderstanding, and that miseducation as to what Africa was all about was dispelled definitively in the--through those interactions. 00:17:00.000 --> 00:18:00.000 And I would have to say that what, in learning about what had actually occurred in various places around the continent over, around the continent that I came to realize that I'd been lied to, and it's that sort of thing to where when you have a--let's say if you're talking to your parents growing up and they asked you a question about what happened and you give them a part of the story but not the whole story as to what happened and what are they going to say? They're going to say that you lied. Right? And essentially 00:18:00.000 --> 00:19:00.000 that's what happened in my educational experience, that a part of the story that really made them look good or powerful maybe--I wouldn't even say look good because much of our story in this country as it pertains to Black and white race relations much of that is rooted in pure evil, you know? And I don't know if you've seen that, the Lovecraft Country show, or if you've seen Them, which just came out on Amazon Prime. Jenkins: I've heard a lot about it, and I haven't heard the best of things. 00:19:00.000 --> 00:20:00.000 And that's what kind of pushed me away from it. 'Cause it has a lot of our trauma on screen and some of that can be triggering. So I kind of stayed away from it. I've planned to watch Lovecraft, 'cause I know that that one has more of a better ending, but I've heard that Them doesn't really come to a conclusion--that it, it's kind of just like our trauma for entertainment. Gilmore: Them had a conclusion. Jenkins: Oh, it did? Gilmore: Yes, it did. And it had a very powerful conclusion at that. And I would say that as far as that show is concerned, that it is important for us to watch that, the creator's expression of 00:20:00.000 --> 00:21:00.000 the Black experience, is through that, through that program because the creator really nailed the trauma as you put it of the Black experience in this country 100%, and the way in which he did it, in my opinion, was pure genius, you know? So, I would highly, highly, highly recommend it, very highly recommend it. It was difficult to watch, and it was painful in much--I would say the majority of it was painful, but the way in which it ended, it ended 00:21:00.000 --> 00:22:00.000 with power, and again, I most definitely wholeheartedly recommend that show. There's a lot to unpack in that show. And one of the things about it is that we recognize our experience and the experience of those who came before us because I'll tell you one of the things about watching something like that, right? Is where we can hear about the experiences that the people who came before us went through, right? But to really see it and to really understand it is a whole 'nother thing. And to really get down to the 00:22:00.000 --> 00:23:00.000 evil of racism that has existed in our country and still exists in our country is critical for us to really wake up and determine our place in the society. Really the way in which the system has been set up and continues to be set up is that we're supposed to know our place in a society. We're supposed to know our role and stay in it, you know? And that's the way that it's designed. But if we're all to also understand that the, 00:23:00.000 --> 00:24:00.000 really the power to determine what our role is going to be in society and take that role on, the power to do that actually lies within ourselves to make that determination and to and stand by it, you know? And so that's where I think that this program really hit the nail on the head and really delivered that message. And the other thing, too, is that it's one of those things where I was watching--in watching the show, 00:24:00.000 --> 00:25:00.000 it made me think about my grandfather, right? And I had to go back and really think about what the kinds of things that my grandparents would say about their experiences and what their attitudes were. You know, what about this society and about what was and was not possible, all kinds of stuff, right? And in doing that, I actually just on a whim typed my grandfather's name into Google and looked up 00:25:00.000 --> 00:26:00.000 --and was trying to look up and see if there was any information there about him and about that time, and in doing so, I came across an article that was about my great-grandmother in the LA (Los Angeles) Times. And the article was really just a human interest piece that was talking about her because she had turned a hundred and really, in coming to California, that's where a lot of family just actually just came from her and is in the Los Angeles area as a result. 00:26:00.000 --> 00:27:00.000 And there was one part in there where they were talking to her, and she was talking about coming to California and how--from the deep South--and how that, and how, in some ways what she experienced in California was worse than what she experienced in the deep South. And that's where it--that show really resonated because that's what the show is centered on. Centered on Black people coming to California from the South. And moving into neighborhoods that are 00:27:00.000 --> 00:28:00.000 predominantly, if not all white. And how they were and how they were received. And so I can--it gave a picture as to what may have been behind that statement, you know? Yeah. So-- Jenkins: I’ll try it. I will, but 'cause my grandma, she also had a similar experience. She came from Seattle to California around the fifties. And so, but she lived in like a Black area. She, yeah. Gilmore: Okay. Jenkins: How has Black social justice and activism such as the Civil Rights Movement, feminism, the natural hair movement, and Black Lives Matter affected you? 00:28:00.000 --> 00:29:00.000 Hmm. How has it affected me? Jenkins: Yes. Gilmore: You know, I'll tell you what, when I was in school, I was very much involved in social justice and activism on our campus at Washington State. I would also say that when it comes to 00:29:00.000 --> 00:30:00.000 my life beyond college, it has taken on a different form than the activism that I was involved in when I was a student in school. And the form that it is taken on has been more so in my work, right? And so we can look at that basically, given that I've been in education, it's been more about empowerment through education, and that has actually been a philosophy that I have, 00:30:00.000 --> 00:31:00.000 that has, that has grounded in my work. That philosophy of empowerment through education has grounded my work. And that would be through math, through writing, through--and really through looking at ourselves and looking at our history and where we come from and also looking at the possibilities of where we can go and--if we so desire and how to get there. And that's where I would say that connecting the students to resources, helping students to see that 00:31:00.000 --> 00:32:00.000 what they may have thought was out of reach when it comes to their education is actually actually tangible. It's possible to learn this stuff. And one of the things--we talk a lot about impostor syndrome. That's something, that's a term that I've heard used quite a bit when it comes to people not realizing or understanding that they can actually learn what's there and that it's not a reflection of their intelligence or ability that they struggle with certain 00:32:00.000 --> 00:33:00.000 material because the thing is that when it comes down to it, say for instance, we struggling with math, right? And I've heard so many students saying that I'm just not good at math. Right? And the thing to understand there is that there's no such thing as not being good at math. The thing to understand is that you are in school and in being in school, you're here to learn. And the fact that you don't know the information that is being presented to you in the classroom--is not--that's the way it's supposed to be, right? Because you're here to learn it, you know? And so you're not going into the classroom already knowing how to do what they're presenting to you. 00:33:00.000 --> 00:34:00.000 Otherwise you're wasting your time. If you're just sitting there to showcase that you know how to do stuff that--and and basically pay him money to take a class, to show you how to do stuff that you already know how to do, you know? And so that is--that has been what a large part of what I've done after college. One thing, for instance, was at Washington State, I was Director of the Freshman Seminar Program at Washington State for a while. And while I was doing that I was called by the athletics department. Right? And they had all these football players 00:34:00.000 --> 00:35:00.000 during the summertime who were taking a math course that they were failing. And in order to be eligible to play in the fall, they absolutely had to pass this class. And so they called me in to help them pass the--help them with the math and to help them pass the class. And so I did that and what we ended up doing was we ended up addressing the concepts that they were being presented in that class. And as they address those concepts, they gained, they started gaining understanding of how these things work, of how the concepts that they were being presented with work and on how to use those--and how and when to use the different concepts that they were being given 00:35:00.000 --> 00:36:00.000 and what they ended up discovering was that the knowledge that they had previously thought was unreachable and was out of--and unattainable was actually accessible and that all they had to do was the learning, right? And so coming to that understanding that just because I don't know what's--what this is all about going into it, doesn't mean that I can't learn it. Right? And what you ended up seeing was that with this, in this classroom full of football players, who I was working with, who are majority Black, finding out that that knowledge was accessible and actually coming to that understanding of what this 00:36:00.000 --> 00:37:00.000 education was all about, what you saw them do after that experience was consider the possibilities for their own lives and start to see that, well, Hey, maybe I can be a doctor, or maybe I can be an engineer. And what you saw was you saw these students changing their majors from general studies, or from social sciences, just anything that they had signed up for because they were told that it was going to be easier for them to do while they were playing football and change their majors to physics or to engineering or to pre-med and--or other fields that they thought might be 00:37:00.000 --> 00:38:00.000 of interest or might--that they might want to go into. And that was that empowerment, right? To where it's like coming to that understanding then they ended up really taking a look at their own lives and their own direction and determining where they were going to go. And for the next few years after that I would see those same students, those same football players, progressing through the different levels of math. They started out at the class that I was helping them with was considered a remedial math course, right? And in taking that class, they then 00:38:00.000 --> 00:39:00.000 advanced to the next level and then to the next level. And were taking calculus two, calculus three, depending on what their major was asking for and approaching it from that standpoint of learning. And to this day, a couple of those students are actually doctors to that--medical doctors. There's, another one that I know of who did and end up becoming an engineer and then there was, I think there were a couple others who went into business and actually started their own businesses and are successful in doing so. So that's what I'm talking about when it comes to empowerment through education. And even when I got here 00:39:00.000 --> 00:40:00.000 at Cal State San Marcos that was the thing that I was brought into address. I was brought into address math and writing. And in particular, those students who were coming into the university with a knowledge foundation that was below the college level, so it was a matter of helping those students to get up to speed with what they needed to know to do--to be successful in school. Right? And that's what I did. And that was actually one of the things that I had told--that I would tell students as they came into the university. And I would tell these students and you would see it, too, when it came down to actually talking to the students, what, you 00:40:00.000 --> 00:41:00.000 would see that in orientation, when they dismissed the students who did not need to attend the discussion on what was called remedial math or writing, then the students who were left were largely Black and Latino. And on any given day, that would--orientation day, when I would speak to the students, it would be the case. And that's the thing that I would that I will conclude with when I would talk to them, after telling them about the requirements, after telling them about the classes that they would have to take, and addressing all of those things. 00:41:00.000 --> 00:42:00.000 I would tell them to take a look at the name badges, where their test scores were printed out--the placement scores--and where the classes that they would have to take were listed and the--their requirement for early start was on there as well. And I would tell them that this is the most important thing that I was going to tell them out of that whole presentation. And in looking at that, their name badges with their test scores in those classes, I would tell them those scores and those classes are not a reflection of your intelligence, nor are they a reflection of your ability, but they are a reflection of what you know and what you don't know right now. And all of that that I just presented 00:42:00.000 --> 00:43:00.000 is, it's about what you are required to learn and to understand that when you are learning new knowledge, that that learning experience is supposed to be a struggle. And so the fact that you may have struggled with math and writing in the past, that does not mean that you are not good at it. It just means that you've come across some knowledge that you don't know right now, but you can learn it and that we're here to support you in learning it. And as a result of that, seeing countless students go through, starting at the, from the lowest levels of math and go on into, going into fields that they thought were not accessible to them just like the, those football players. Same with students who were, who needed 00:43:00.000 --> 00:44:00.000 a stronger foundation in writing, same kind of thing. And in doing so, helping them to think about what it was that they wanted to do and how it is that they can leverage what they were learning in the classroom to actually do those things that they wanted to do, you know? So that was the, that was what, has been in large part what my experience has been since leaving the state of Washington. There's been more and, as you know, I was a part of actually helping to establish the Black Student Center here at Cal State San Marcos, as well. And so when, that was 00:44:00.000 --> 00:45:00.000 in large part from the, from an administrative standpoint, but at the same time also setting the tone from an educational standpoint as to what the Center was to, what it was to be about, which was education, right? And learning and advancing yourself to go back into the community and build up the community. And so, when they were, there were quite a few things that we did to actually do that through the Black Student Center. One, I would say, was through 00:45:00.000 --> 00:46:00.000 a lot of the educational events that we put on. One of those events was that we brought a panel of Black Panthers to the University to speak on their experiences and what that was all about. And we also had a photography display up in the Library, where you had all these pictures of Black Panthers and narratives where they were telling their stories and their experiences in the movement. We also had an event where we, what we brought the founder of Kwanzaa to the University to preside over the Kwanzaa ceremony and to also educate us on where it came from 00:46:00.000 --> 00:47:00.000 and why it was, why was it established here in this country. We also brought in some people who, from Tulsa, Oklahoma, to talk about the Tulsa Massacre you know where--and I'm sure you've probably heard you, you're probably knowledgeable of that history. And it was those kinds of things that we did to really create a learning environment about the Black experience, as well as establishing a forum 00:47:00.000 --> 00:48:00.000 within the Black Student Center for students to exchange knowledge and also to learn from each other with what they were learning in the classroom and to help uplift each other in that sense. Another thing that we did was to also address the Black experience, whether that be in general or whether that be on this campus. And to really help students to come to an understanding of what it is that they're going through, and what it is that is happening with them 00:48:00.000 --> 00:49:00.000 when it comes to stress, when it comes to their interactions with others, and to understand that what they may be experiencing is not abnormal, and that there are many of us, have, and do experience the same things. You know, we brought in a psychologist from Student Health and Counseling Services to come in and talk about Black stress and how as Black people, there is so much that we carry around on a daily basis that 00:49:00.000 --> 00:50:00.000 is a huge contributor to the high blood pressure that many of us experience to the hypertension that many of us experience and into our general health. And so those are the kinds of things that we did with the, in establishing the Black Student Center. Jenkins: That definitely goes into my next questions that are all centered on the Black Student Center. So you touched on, kind of what, how, what you guys have done now that it's already created, but what role did you play in the beginning or the creation of the Black Student Center? Gilmore: So the Black Student Center was actually established in my area, 00:50:00.000 --> 00:51:00.000 which is Student Academic Support Services. Right? And so, you know Dr. Cole-Avent, right? Oh, you don't know Dr. Cole-Avent-- Jenkins: --I'm new, I'm like very new. Like I started fall 2020, so we've already, we've been in, quarantine and Zoom school, so I haven't gotten to know anybody in any fundamental way. Gilmore: Sure. Okay. So, but you know, Mr. Rawlins, John Rawlins? Jenkins: Yes. I met him and I also met Jake (Northington). Gilmore Okay. So Dr. Cole-Avent is Mr. Rawlins' direct supervisor. Right? And so I was 00:51:00.000 --> 00:52:00.000 essentially, when the Black Student Center was established, I was in that role, to where the Black Student Center, the Director of the Black Student Center reported to me. Right? And so in establishing the Black Student Center, the, like I had mentioned, the way in which I wanted to approach it was from more of an educational standpoint, more of a educational success standpoint. And with that, with that success, with the end goal of that success, actually being what I previously mentioned about being employed upon graduation and going out into the community and thriving in the community, and 00:52:00.000 --> 00:53:00.000 being that mover and shaker in this society. So that was the role that I played in the establishment of the Black Student Center. Jenkins: Okay. Had you seen a push for the creation of a center before? Gilmore: Had I done what? Jenkins: Had you seen a push for a center before it was created? Gilmore: Yes, actually. And when I was, I was actually at the forum where the president, our previous president, President Haynes, was speaking about the--she was speaking, I believe she may have been being, giving an update on the campus budget to the campus community. And 00:53:00.000 --> 00:54:00.000 there were some Black students who came to that meeting and essentially expressed the need and the desire for a Black Student Center on this campus. And so the president had informed the students that she was open to it and that and that they needed to submit a formal request. And so in the background, I was helping the students who were working on that formal request with the information that they needed to support that request. And so 00:54:00.000 --> 00:55:00.000 more information about the Black experience on this campus. And how students were performing in their classes on this campus and what a Black Student Center would do to bolster the success of Black students at CSUSM. Jenkins: It definitely sounds like you were one of the leaders in the creation of the Black Student Center. Were there anyone that worked on this project and their contributions, including any unsung heroes we may not know about? Gilmore: There were quite a few, and so 00:55:00.000 --> 00:56:00.000 I would say a lot of the people who were involved in the and actually establishing the Black Student Center at Cal State San Marcos are listed on the website under the history of the Black Student Center. So you can find a lot of the names there. As far as unsung heroes are concerned, I would say that there were quite a few faculty and staff who worked 00:56:00.000 --> 00:57:00.000 in the background in supporting the students to help them get the Center established, you know? And so this was in large part, it was a student-driven thing. Establishing a Black Student Center, it was definitely student driven, but at the same time, it was supported and--it was supported by a lot of our Black faculty and staff on this campus. Jenkins: Okay, awesome. What did the university administration communicate was their vision? You kind of already touched on this, that it was 00:57:00.000 --> 00:58:00.000 mainly education. And was there anything else that they envisioned? Gilmore: Yes. Let me, I'll tell you what, when it comes to the vision, right? I would say that student success was a large part of that. So students actually being successful in their classes and also going on into careers. 00:58:00.000 --> 00:59:00.000 That was a large part of it being in my area ; whereas, the other piece that they really wanted to be more emphasized was the student engagement piece and the student involvement piece, right? And so that's where you have it moving from Student Academic Support Services over to Student Life. And so now the emphasis, at least in the vision of the institution, 00:59:00.000 --> 01:00:00.000 really wanted to make this more, make the students, the Black Student Center, have more of a student engagement and student life emphasis. I don't--and that's not to say that there's no interest in student success and that that educational aspect is not is no longer a part of that part of that vision. But that's the vision that the institution really wanted to emphasize was the student life and student involvement aspect. Jenkins: Okay. When it came to the creation of the BSC, was there external or institutional pushback, and did you 01:00:00.000 --> 01:01:00.000 experience or witness any pushback on the creation of the Center within the Center or on social media? Gilmore: Well, I can answer the social media question right now. And that is that I didn't see anything on social media for the simple fact that I'm not on social media, so I try to keep my digital footprint pretty light. So I can't speak to what may have been going on social media. But one thing that I can say that I heard repeatedly was doesn't establishing a Black Student Center doesn't that, isn't that encourage more division and more in isolation of our Black students instead of folding them into the fabric 01:01:00.000 --> 01:02:00.000 of the entire campus community? And if we're going to have a Black Student Center, then why not a white student center? That was another thing that I heard. And then another thing that I heard was a worry that other groups might want a center as well. So what if the Asian students start asking for a center and all that kind of stuff and that was the, those were the type--kinds of things that I heard when it came to pushback. 01:02:00.000 --> 01:03:00.000 Yeah. I would just leave it at that, that was, those were the kinds of things that I heard. Jenkins: Okay. Were you at the BSC's grand opening? Gilmore: I was. Jenkins: Okay. What was your experience? Gilmore: I thought that it was a great experience. It was very celebratory experience. There were a lot of people who came out from the community and a lot of different constituents from our community in the area. Were very pleased to see this, the Black Student Center opening, and were actually very involved in what was going on in the Center. And it was one of those things where 01:03:00.000 --> 01:04:00.000 it opened the door to connect with a lot of people in our local service area to interact with our students. And, like one of the things, when you were talking about vision, one of the things we really wanted to do was to create relationships with the schools within our local service area, which extends from San Diego up to Riverside and Orange County. So we were in, we were engaging with schools as far out as 01:04:00.000 --> 01:05:00.000 Hemet and connecting with the BSU’s (Black Student Unions) that they had out there and in, Hemet, Murrieta, and Menifee, and going into Poway and right here in San Marcos and Oceanside and all over the local service area. And we were connecting with Black students and with Black community organizations and with the teachers and administrators and counselors who were working with the different student groups to really establish that connection in an attempt to 01:05:00.000 --> 01:06:00.000 create a pipeline into the University from those entities. And so that was a big part of it. Another part of it was in connecting with community members, one of the things that we also wanted to establish was a pipeline out of the University. And so what we wanted to do was to bring in various community members in different--in a wide range of professions--to come in and talk to the students and provide the, provide insight into different careers 01:06:00.000 --> 01:07:00.000 and in different professional fields for the students to be able to see themselves in those areas. And so that was one of the things that that grand opening really did was allow us to make those, allow us to make those connections and really build on those connections. Another thing that we did was we connected with the North County chapter of the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People). We connected with North County chapters of different NPHC (National Pan-Hellenic Council) organizations. So, and have those organizations different, doing different activities with the students on our campus. And one 01:07:00.000 --> 01:08:00.000 of the things that they were doing was in really promoting voting, so that was one just an example of one of the things that the community brought to the table. Another thing that we did was, it was, we connected with the Jack and Jill organization (a membership organization of mothers with children ages 2-19, dedicated to nurturing future African-American leaders), and they ended up having their national conference at CSUSM. So you had all of these Black students from all over, in fact, I saw people from the state of Washington who came in and people who I knew who came in and were a part of that. And it was a 01:08:00.000 --> 01:09:00.000 huge and very empowering experience to see and be a part of. So yeah, those were the things. Jenkins: The more I'm hearing about the grand opening of the BSC, I wish I was there, you know? Gilmore: Yes. Jenkins: We didn't have anything like that at CSUN (California State University Northridge), so it just sounds really amazing. My next question is what has been the impact of the BSC on you personally? Gilmore: The impact of the BSC on me personally. You know, I would say that the impact on me personally 01:09:00.000 --> 01:10:00.000 has been that, I too have been able to receive from the types of educational events that we put on and to learn from those events about things that I didn't know about and so education is, was a big part. Or has been a big part. The other very big part and was being able to connect with the students, you know? And so because I had the Black Student Center in my area then that was one of the places where I would come in and actually spend time with students. 01:10:00.000 --> 01:11:00.000 And I would say that, in my role, student interaction is something that doesn't occur as often as I would like. And so having oversight of the Black Student Center actually gave me the opportunity to interact with our students a whole lot more. And so that would--so those would be those things. And then also, as I mentioned, the connections around the community that were established. Those would be the impacts that the 01:11:00.000 --> 01:12:00.000 Black Center has had on me personally. Jenkins: Amazing. What do you expect to see next for the BSC? Gilmore: Well, I see the Black Student Center really just going to the next level under the direction of Mr. Rawlins and Dr. Cole-Avent. And really seeing the two of them bring to fruition the kinds of things that we've been talking about here, which is really that student success and also engaging students in those very meaningful 01:12:00.000 --> 01:12:56.000 activities and experiences that would contribute to their success as students and also to their success as professionals as they get ready to graduate and leave this University. Jenkins: (Unintelligible) Are there any questions I should have asked that I didn't? Gilmore: I think you have done an excellent job of asking questions in this interview and I can't think of anything. Jenkins: Awesome. Thank you. Let me see what I have here. Well, thank you for very much for your time today. And thanks for being a part of this project. We all really appreciate it. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.xml GilmoreGeoffrey_JenkinsSierra_2021-04-14_Access.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Gilmore, Geoffrey. Interview April 14th, 2021. Description An account of the resource Dr. Geoffrey Gilmore played a key role in the development of the Black Student Center at CSUSM. In this interview, Gilmore touches on the issues of Black people within academic spaces and his experience helping students to succeed on a university level. Dr. Gilmore also discusses his own history as he moved from Los Angeles to Seattle, and back to California. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-04 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-14 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Geoffrey Gilmore Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sierra Jenkins Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America Activism, Student Anti-Black Racism California State University San Marcos, Black Student Center Student Success, Black Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Los Angeles (Calif.) Seattle (Wash.) San Marcos (Calif.) Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/263b2399055fdac2b7ee4b09862c9925.pdf c057803dbcbcd7c0815a75f8fc024020 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Goldberg, Merryl. Interview transcript, April 9, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union. This oral history was created in partnership with the CSUSM History Department and made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merryl Goldberg Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-04-09 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES California State University San Marcos. Music California State University San Marcos. School of Arts Klezmer Conservatory Band Klezmer music Smuggling -- Soviet Union Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Boston (Mass.) San Marcos (Calif.) Soviet Union Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Merryl Goldberg License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_transcript Activists and activism Art and artists CSUSM history History Department internship Jewish experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aaron Williams Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Merryl Goldberg OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. music;activism;arts education;censorship OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Goldberg, Merryl. Interview, April 9, 2025 SC027-078 01:28:23 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was conducted in partnership with the CSUSM History Department, and made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm California State University San Marcos. Music California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES Klezmer music Klezmer Conservatory Band Soviet Union Boston (Mass.) San Marcos (Calif.) Smuggling -- Soviet Union music ; activism ; arts education ; censorship Merryl Goldberg Aaron Williams Video GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/93e37e5636e5ef1f864f806c9067fbf1.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and roles on campus Goldberg discusses her roles on campus as a music professor and Director of Center ARTES at Cal State San Marcos. She describes their current project ART=OPPORTUNITY that encourages arts education for all students. With assistance from several funders, Goldberg enthuses about the capability of Center ARTES to implement creativity in curriculum across California. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 324 Family and music education Now a professional saxophonist, Goldberg shares where her love of music originated. She talks about being immersed in a creative household, pursuing the saxophone despite initial hesitancy from her parents, and joining the prestigious New England Conservatory of Music. Goldberg also shares about performing professionally with the Klezmer Conservatory Band. 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 659 Klezmer Conservatory Band After sharing about her musical education and introduction to klezmer music, Goldberg recounts the foundation of the Klezmer Conservatory Band with Hankus Netsky at the New England Conservatory of Music. After completing her education, she supported herself financially with performances and private lessons. Since most of the klezmer music was previously never written down, Goldberg describes being able to improvise, learn, and transcribe music. 0 ["[\"\"]"] 1198 Family background and Jewish identity Goldberg delves deeper into her family background. Although her parents were not musicians, she describes their creativity that was passed on to her. She recounts witnessing her grandfather play alongside jazz pioneers like Duke Ellington and Nat King Cole. Despite not knowing it at the time, Goldberg reflects upon growing up in a lower-income community that fostered a child's creativity and imagination. Subsequently, Goldberg shares more about her family background, her Jewish identity, and the foundational aspects of Judaism that encourage creative education. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1980 Secret code with sheet music After describing her musical education, family background, and Jewish identity, Goldberg discusses her experience in the Soviet Union. Providing meaningful historical context, she describes the dire situation in the USSR faced by minorities and freethinkers alike. Utilizing her musical education, she recounts devising a secret code with sheet music. Goldberg then elaborates on why she felt compelled to take action, and why documenting stories of Jewish persecution mattered. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2874 Music as resistance and arts education During her time in the USSR, faced with interrogation and possibly incarceration, Goldberg now reflects on music as a form of resistance. She expresses the importance of freedom within one's own mind, which can and should never be policed or censored by fascism and oppression. Goldberg then describes implementing and reinforcing this philosophy through her work as a professor. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 4042 Why histories matter Wrapping up her own shared story, Goldberg states why people's stories matter. Comparing the Soviet Union in the 1980s to the USA in 2025, Goldberg stresses the importance of empathy, nuance, and compassion. She further elaborates on the preservation of voices under persecution in the past and present. Additionally, she discusses the serendipitous revelation of her secret code and an upcoming book about her experience smuggling out stories of Jewish persecution in the Soviet Union. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:17.000 Okay. Today is Wednesday, the 9th of April 2025. For the Special Collections of California State University of San Marcos, my name is Aaron Williams. And I am interviewing Merryl (Goldberg). Thank you for joining me. How are you? 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:20.000 I'm doing great, thanks. Thanks for having me. 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:39.000 Yeah, of course. So, this is for the oral history project with Special Collections. You are a professor on this campus in the School of Arts and Director of Center for ARTES. Am I pronouncing that right? 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:40.000 Yep. Center ARTES. 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:44.000 Okay. Can I quickly ask about that and your role on campus? 00:00:44.000 --> 00:01:13.000 Yeah, sure. So I'm a professor, music professor. I've been here for over thirty years. And Center ARTES is a center dedicated to ensuring that all kids have access to arts education. Or arts integration in the classroom, and working with school teachers and districts to create those opportunities so people feel comfortable integrating the arts throughout the curriculum. 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:25.000 Okay, cool. So do you work -- what does that look like for you and like the work you do? Like, what is your role in, or—sorry. What specifically do the work you do, if that makes sense? 00:01:25.000 --> 00:05:03.000 Yeah. So specifically, the work of Center ARTES, right now we have our ginormous project called Art=Opportunity. So, under Center ARTES, Art=Opportunities, there's myself, there are multiple faculty fellows who, you know, other members of the faculty, both in the School of Arts and in the School of Education. And actually one of our partners from San Marcos Unified (School District) is a fellow as well. We have several projects. One big one is creating career pathways for people who want to become arts teachers in schools, or teachers on special assignment where they can integrate the arts into the curriculum. By that I mean using music to teach biology, or visual art to teach reading or dance and science. There's just so many ways that the arts can really be foundational to learning and to knowledge and to kids' excitement and creativity and using their imagination. It’s really a foundational skill, the arts are. So, that's one of our big projects. We also have a lot of STEAM (Science, technology, engineering, arts, and mathematics) projects, which mean arts integrated into math and science and engineering. In fact, we have a whole group of STEAM ambassadors who are students who go out into schools doing the curriculum, developing STEAM curriculum, implementing it in schools. We have some podcasting that we do. We have a project called Harmony Hacks (funded by National Science Foundation that encourages women’s participation in computer science) in cooperation with Computer Science folks, which is coding through music. That's a really cool project. That's a—we have other projects too. And in the past, we've done quite a few professional development projects in schools. The DREAM Project, which is Developing Reading Education through Arts Methods. And SUAVE (Socios Unidos para Artes Via Educacion—United Community for Arts Education), which is an arts integration project. In addition to the actual hands-on projects and boot camps for teachers and for student teachers, we do quite a bit of documentation and evaluation of the programs as well. So that's a important aspect of what we do. What we do translates and has become a model statewide in several instances. And that really is something that I think is great cause our reach goes beyond here. I mean, here would be enough, but the fact that our reach goes beyond is pretty great too. And we have support from a number of funders. The—currently the Hewlett Foundation (founded in 1966 by William and Flora Hewlett in 1966 which awards grants that support diverse and inclusive causes) has been really generous with their support of our work. As been the Heller Foundation (awards funding that advances environmental and arts education opportunities). In the past we've had the Stewart Foundation (dedicated to programs that develop fundamental leadership skills for youth). We currently have a National Science Foundation (independent federal agency that funds non-medical science and engineering programs) grant. We've had California Arts Council (state agency dedicated to Californian culture that promotes creative arts education), National Endowment for the Arts (independent federal agency that funds artistic development). So, we're really a pretty robust center. And I would suggest anybody who is interested in looking at it in more depth could always go to csum.edu/artopp. 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:32.000 Right, that's how I was researching this previously—prior to this interview. I love that you were talking about how far your reach has went beyond this campus using music. And I want to now specifically talk about your love of music and how that, or where that came from. 00:05:32.000 --> 00:07:49.000 Oh, that's a great question. I am a professional musician. I play saxophone. I was on the road for thirteen years performing professionally all over the world with a band called the Klezmer Conservatory Band (formed by Hankus Netsky in 1980 ; Goldberg was also a founding member). Klezmer music is Eastern European Yiddish music, kind of like the real version of Fiddler on the Roof (1964 Broadway musical by Jerry Bock, Sheldon Harnick, and Joseph Stein that was based on Sholem Aleichem’s character Tevye the Dairyman). I come from a really artistic family. My father was a visual artist, actually a graphic designer. And his father, my grandfather, played viola in the Boston Pops (offshoot of the BSO founded in 1885 that plays popular and classical music) and in the Boston Symphony (Orchestra or BSO ; founded in 1881, the second-oldest major American orchestra) and with big bands (also known as jazz orchestras ; ensembles of about ten or more musicians that popularized jazz and swing music during the 1940s). And later in life, my grandfather was the musical director at WEZE in Boston, a radio station. So as a little kid, I remember distinctly going to see my grandfather play on the (Charles River) Esplanade (state park) in Boston on, you know, on multiple concerts. Including July 4th seeing him up on the stage, listening to him play. And when we visited my grandparents, my two aunts who lived next door would come on over. And my Aunt Zelde played piano, and she was a piano teacher. My grandfather and my aunt would perform for us all the time when we were little. So I had music in my background and my— oh, and we had a record collection like crazy. And my dad played music always in the house. I even have pictures of myself with my dad when I was probably like a year and a half, or not even two, playing the bongos and having a record player right next door. So when I was in third, fourth grade, I knew I wanted to play music, and I really wanted to play the saxophone because I saw a picture in my music book of a saxophone. And there was just something about it, maybe it had so many buttons and it was shiny. I was dying to play a saxophone. 00:07:49.000 --> 00:10:49.000 I told my parents I wanna play saxophone. And they said, “No, it's a boys instrument. You'll have to pick something else.” So I picked guitar, but I never gave up on the saxophone. I started taking guitar lessons, which I also loved. And at the studio where I took the guitar lessons, the Buddy Reis studio in Somerset, Massachusetts, they taught all the instruments. And so, I asked if I could try playing saxophone. And they let me. (laugher) I took saxophone lessons on the sly. By the time I was going into high school, I told my parents that I really needed to play the saxophone at that point because I wanted to be in the marching band, no guitars in the marching band. They finally, finally relented and said, “Okay, you can play a saxophone.” I said, “Well, I actually know how to play saxophone. I just need one at this point.” And I had one of the best music programs probably in the state of Massachusetts, just absolutely incredible. Played a lot of music, was in the concert band, the symphonic band, the orchestra marching band. Got a lot of music education, ultimately decided that I really wanted to major in music. And was super lucky to have gotten accepted into New England Conservatory of Music (founded in 1867 in Boston, Massachusetts), which is a very elite music school. It's kind of like Yale is to Harvard (two private Ivy League universities that maintain prestigious reputations). New England Conservatory of Music, NEC, is to Julliard. If you know music schools. Really topnotch and I just loved it. I loved being at the conservatory. While I was there, performed all the time. Ended up being part of this band that we put together for a Jewish music concert. We ended up naming ourselves Klezmer Conservatory Band (and) played on a concert. People went nuts. And then built up a repertoire and we were just in demand. Constantly in demand for performances. Then a famous radio personality called— whose name is Garrison Keeler, on a radio show called Prairie Home Companion (weekly radio show from 1974 to 2016 that reached over four million Americans at its height), heard of us. And then we got national exposure and started recording, and it just built from there, there, there. I love music. I love listening to especially jazz, Brazilian music. Anything with a really good beat I really like. 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:58.000 Yeah, I love hearing this passion of music. It's— I hope you don't mind, it's gonna be a prominent theme of this conversation. (overlapping dialogue) 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:00.000 Yeah, sure. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:08.000 You were mentioning the Klezmer Conservatory Band, and you mentioned you formed it, or were you— How did that start? 00:11:08.000 --> 00:14:00.000 Yeah, so I was a student at New England Conservatory of Music, and I was really into Jewish music. Jewish music is really diverse because Jewish people are in the diasporas (referring to Jewish communities outside their historical lands, particularly after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE). So, there's Jewish music from, let's say, Columbia in South America, from Eastern Europe, from the Middle East. One of the musics I loved like crazy was Yemenite music. There's a lot of Jewish Yemenite music, which is, it's got such an interesting sound to it, like (Goldberg vocalizes a Yemenite tune). It's very circular and it's fun to play and you can dance to it. And then it turns out there's actually a lot of Jewish themed classical music as well. So, for fun, I connected with a professor there, Hankus Netsky (multi-instrumentalist and chair of Contemporary Improvisation Department at the New England Conservatory). And he and I decided, wouldn't it be fun to have a Jewish music concert? And that played music that was, you know, everything from classical to Yemenite. He was really interested in klezmer, cause he had an uncle who had played in klezmer bands. I had not even heard of klezmer. But between Hankus and I and like a whole group of students, we put together this really cool program, very diverse program. At the end of it, we played three klezmer tunes that Hankus had brought to us. Now we learned those tunes by ear because they weren't written down. They were recorded on old 78s (vinyl records that play at 78 revolutions per minute, largely discontinued by the 1950s). And so, we would listen to the music and transcribe it note for note. And then we played together. So, one of the pieces we played on our very first concert, I think was “Silver Wedding,” which is a very upbeat piece. It sounds like this (Goldberg vocalizes tune). And, you know, really upbeat. Audience went cuckoo after we finished playing, wouldn't stop clapping. We didn't have an encore. So, we just played that tune again. And the rest is kind of history with regard to the Klezmer (Conservatory Band). But that's how it all started. So in a way, I was one of the, I was clearly one of the founders of the band, along with Hankus. And Hankus was really the one who brought that music to all of us. So, there you have it. 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:04.000 Do you remember about like, the time period? So it was when you were in college? 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:15.000 Oh, yeah. So that was, that first music concert was probably 1979 or 1980. 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:18.000 And this is at the Conservatory— sorry, New York? 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:18.399 In Boston. 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:20.000 Boston. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:26.000 Yeah. New England Conservatory (overlapping dialogue) New England Conservatory of Music in Boston. 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:27.000 Gotcha. 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:34.000 Actually kitty-corner (diagonally opposite) to Symphony Hall (concert hall that hosts the Boston Symphony Orchestra since 1900). It's in that part of Boston where there's quite a lot of music. 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:41.000 I have never left California, so everything in the East Coast is New York to my ignorant brain. (laughter) I apologize. Boston. 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:49.000 That's okay. As long as you're not a Yankees fan, it doesn't matter. Boston Red Sox, Yankees, big rivalry. So-- 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:50.000 Love the Red Sox. 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:51.000 There you go. 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:57.000 So, you started the music, the Conservatory— sorry— 00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:59.000 Klezmer Conservatory Band. 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:10.000 Klezmer Conservatory Band in Boston around 1979. After you left the (New England) Conservatory, how did you pursue music still? 00:15:10.000 --> 00:16:12.000 Right, so, let's see. I graduated the Conservatory in ‘81. We were already performing professionally. You know, getting gigs in the Boston area and in the Philadelphia area, some in New York. And as the band’s popularity grew we continued to perform. So that's how I made my living, was performing with the band because I got paid for all the concerts. Also got paid to play parties and bar mitzvahs and wedding anniversaries and, you know, lots of things like that. So my, basically, I pulled together a living by performing teaching private lessons and I taught in a school part-time as a, you know, I was a music teacher. My degree from New England Conservatory of Music was in music education and saxophone performance. 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:24.000 Yes. So, going with the— while performing with— music in Boston, what music did you lean towards? I'm guessing jazz, klezmer music? 00:16:24.000 --> 00:17:25.000 Yeah, klezmer music. Again, kind of like the Eastern European music. So I performed a lot— I mean, that was my main gig, was playing klezmer music. But I also did gigs with other kinds of music. Mostly classical. I was part of a classical like modern music ensemble. And we performed at the (New England) Conservatory as well. And that would be music that was so fun to play, might not have been as fun to listen to. Some crazy pieces with nursery rhymes and saxophone, or a solo saxophone, or saxophone quartet. Different pieces that were basically like twentieth century music or twenty-first century newly composed music. 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:44.000 So it sounds like you really enjoy experimenting with music and seeing where it could go. (Goldberg affirms). Earlier you were mentioning writing— having to transcribe music. Or write music yourself, as there wasn't written (sheet music) previously. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:18:34.000 Ah, so the klezmer music, we learned all of that by listening to old recordings. Or finding older musicians who might have played the music and learning from them, because none of it was written down. So that's how we learned all of that. The klezmer music. And so what we did is we would listen to it— exactly, transcribe it, write it down. Although when we performed in concerts, basically because we had learned it all by ear, we just played without music, without sheet music in front of us. I could play easily play concerts without any, you know, music in front of me because I knew all the tunes. It's a lot more fun to play without the music anyways cause you're not constrained by it. 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:53.000 Yeah, I cannot fathom that. Like, I played music in middle school and stopped. So obviously my knowledge is not at your level, but it was always, I'm sure, impressive. Or was it just like, was it just like innate or did, how did you get to that level? Just being able to play without sheet music. 00:18:53.000 --> 00:19:56.000 Without sheet music, you know, I think for musicians, once you know the tune you can just play it basically. Like for— in this genre of music anyways, or in any folk area, even in jazz I would say. Classical's a little harder because you have to be very exact. In klezmer music, you can just play. But I know what you mean because I look at people who are in the theater. In a million years, I could never memorize a play. I don't know how people do it. I don't know how the heck they can remember it. But maybe it is the same as, you know, the skill I have in music to be able to just play a whole concert without any sheet music because I know it, right? (Williams affirms). I guess that's a skill that actors have that's just a different part of the brain. But I can’t in a million years imagine being able to do that. 00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:15.000 It's fascinating, so thank you for that perspective. Cause yeah, it's unimaginable for me, both instances, acting and music. Thank you for sharing the, about your love of music. And the instrument. Saxophone— It was so interesting hearing how your parents were like, no, that's a boys' instrument. 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:27.000 I know. Well, I'm old, you know, (laughs) and people had those, you know, those kind of biases back then. But, you know, ultimately my parents gave in. 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:28.000 Right, of course. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.000 Yeah. 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.000 Just the initial, like hesitancy. 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.000 Yeah. 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:42.000 Why do you think— cause again, I mean, I'm not from that time. But I would've thought, “But they'd let you play guitar?” That also seemed like a little— 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:51.000 What was, you know, like an acoustic guitar, not an electric guitar. Although eventually I got an electric guitar too. That was really fun. (laughter) 00:20:51.000 --> 00:21:05.000 That's so fascinating. So, your parents were obviously supporting your music. Did you learn, did you mention— sorry, I forget a little bit. They played klezmer music as well? 00:21:05.000 --> 00:23:02.000 So my parents were not musicians. My dad was a graphic designer. My mom was a teacher. And my mom also was just phenomenally talented. She made, she knitted, she sewed clothes, she made stained glass and these really unique collage pins with decoupage (crafting with glued cutouts in combination with paint or gold leaf). So, she was very creative. And my dad, of course, was a graphic designer, visual artist. And he also painted wonderful paintings. I have so many of them up in my home. My grandfather is the one who was also a professional musician, and he played classical music, but he also played jazz. He actually played with Duke Ellington (pianist, bandleader, and composer who is considered a pioneer of jazz) and Stan Kenton (Stanley ; jazz pianist and composer) with a guy named Paul Whiteman (bandleader, composer, and violinist recognized by Ellington as the King of Jazz). These are— back in the forties and fifties, there were the big bands would travel from city to city. And they actually had a whole string section with them. I mean, a string section that would play with them. But they didn't travel with the string sections. They were hired in each town. So my grandfather was always hired. Yeah, we have pictures of him with Nat King Cole (singer, pianist, and actor who pioneered jazz ensembles and achieved crossover success during the civil rights movement), and other famous folks. And he played with him. And I remember as a kid, you know, he would tell me, “Oh yeah, I'm going off. They're playing with the Duke Ellington” (band) this, or like I said, I saw him perform both on the stage and in the apartment where they lived. And just out, well, basically part of Boston, Chelsea (city across the Mystic River from Boston). So, yeah. 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:10.000 That sounds like an amazing upbringing and experience. Just being immersed in music and the arts, even your parents— 00:23:10.000 --> 00:25:12.000 Oh, it was amazing. And my grandfather who played viola—well, both sets of grandparents lived in what would— could be described as tenements. So, tenements are like apartment buildings where there are a lot of people living. And really lower, lower middle class if that. And you know, when you're a little kid, you don't know about any of this stuff. So I would go to my grandparents' apartment and, in Chelsea, Massachusetts, and it was it was like fairy land because my grandmother would be yelling down the stairs to the downstairs neighbor, “Ida, bring up this, bring up that.” And we'd go off the in the balcony and play in an area that's like a back alley. We'd go in the back of a store that you could get to from the alley. And in the meantime, the apartment really only was a very small one, maybe two bedroom apartment. My grandparents, when I thought about it later, their bedroom was actually what should have been the dining room. But they, there wasn't enough room, right? So, they made their dining room into their bedroom. And, but again, it was such a lively, wonderful place. I mean, I loved it as a little kid. And it didn't occur to me that it was very inner city, very poor. But what a fun place to live. And just all the commotion and the music and the people everywhere. It was like a little kid's dream. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:31.000 Yeah. It sounds like a fairy land. And even though you said it's lower income, just being surrounded by music and the commotion. I want— 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:50.000 Yeah, they even had a— when you came into the apartment, there was a very long corridor. And we used to— we had a plastic bowling set. And my cousins and I, and my brother, we'd always bowl (laughter) in the hallway. 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:54.000 That's funny. And you made your own little bowling alley. That's really cool. 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.000 Yeah. 00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:13.000 What-- (laughter) For me, we just did hopscotch. I never thought to make a bowling alley. That's really fascinating. (Goldberg agrees) Do you have any other memories like that? What else? How else did you— did you convert any of the other rooms into anything else? Indoor aquarium? 00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:28.000 Well, the bathroom there had a— I don't even know if it had a shower, but it had a big clawfoot tub I remember loving as a little kid, taking baths there. That was just so much fun. 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:30.000 I’ve only seen those like in movies. 00:26:30.000 --> 00:27:02.000 I know. And I'm very lucky cause I live— I was able, because of being, I was born in 1959. My parents were all first generation (American citizens). My grandparents were all immigrants. And they, because they were immigrants, they had what I would call kind of old country traditions and way of thinking. 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:04.000 Did they immigrate? Where did they immigrate from? 00:27:04.000 --> 00:28:20.000 Eastern Europe. All of my grandparents escaped before the Holocaust. And my father's family ended up in Chelsea in the Boston area. My mom's family ended up in New Bedford, which is also outside of Boston. And then my family did, just my father's side, part of the family came to Boston, part of the family went to Israel, part of the family went to Brazil. Interesting fun fact, family fun fact, there are musicians in each of the— like my Brazilian cousins, there's an opera singer and opera— you know, there's several musicians. My Israeli cousins I have a cousin named Gila Goldstein, who is absolutely a top-notch pianist. She's president of the (American) Liszt Society (promotes and preserves the legacy of Hungarian composer Franz Liszt). She's just an amazing, amazing pianist. And then, you know, you've got me as the saxophonist. But it's just kind of cool that somehow the genetics of our family on that side we have a lot of musicians. 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:28.000 Yes. Seems the musician is linked to, I'm assuming that's the Jewish side of your family. 00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:30.000 Yeah, yeah. Actually, all sides of my family are Jewish, so— 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:32.000 Okay. I didn't know. 00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.000 There you have it. 00:28:34.000 --> 00:29:06.000 There we go. (laughter) That's so fascinating that music transcends generations and continents. (Goldberg affirms) I wanted to hear more about your upbringing, and were you closely— my upbringing was outside of religion, like Judaism, Christianity, all of it. So, I'm very naive to all of it. Was, is the term secular? Or were you immersed in the traditions (of Judaism)? 00:29:06.000 --> 00:32:36.000 I am, at this point I'm pretty much a secular Jewishly identified human. Growing up— and again, I think this was because when you consider my grandparents were all immigrants escaping Eastern Europe because they were Jewish. My grandmother lived through pogroms (violent attempts to massacre ethnic minorities, particularly Jewish people) in Eastern Europe. My mother's mother. They had, they escaped really terrible things. Jewish identity was something that was really important to my parents, my grandparents. We went to temple, a conservative temple. So Jewish, you have: reform, conservative orthodox, ultra orthodox, and then there's like a whole bunch of stuff in between. We were conservative, which means kind of middle of the road. Early on our family kept kosher (foods conforming to the regulations of kashrut, Jewish dietary law), but then we didn't, many of my cousins still keep kosher. That's a food thing. Dietary laws. And I went to Hebrew school on like two days a week during the week. I went to Friday night services, Saturday morning services, and Sunday school. So I was essentially at the temple five days a week. It was something that was an identity for sure. And I really, I enjoyed Hebrew school. I went all the way through Hebrew high school. And part of that was because in the, in Jewish learning, one of the things that's really central is that a love of learning, and B. that there are multiple ways to interpret things. So I love that. You know, take a portion— there's a book called the Talmud (source of Jewish religious law and theology), which is commentary on what's in the Torah (first five books of the Hebrew Bible). And the Torah is like, you know, how you live by the rules. And so there can be, I don't know, eight or twelve commentaries on the same thing. And, you know, there's just a sense of, “Let's debate, let's discuss.” I kind of wish people did more of that now. And, you know, not about religious things, but just about everyday things. So, my Jewish upbringing really was, I think, foundational in enabling me to see things from multiple perspectives and really embrace that multiple perspectives exist on things. Over the years, my, I guess connection to organized religion has waned. You know, I'm not interested in going to temple at this point, but I really do love the culture. I love the underlying love of learning. You know? That's really part of Judaism. And I feel really proud to be someone of Jewish heritage. 00:32:36.000 --> 00:33:09.000 Yeah, that makes sense. Because you mentioned the underlining love of learning and multiple perspectives, or approaches to that learning. And so with that, it makes sense that multiple people who are Jewish in your family then apply that through music. I want— interested— previously in our conversation and in music, you mentioned coding with music. Right. Right. Right. Right. 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:09.066 Right. 00:33:09.066 --> 00:33:10.000 Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. And I don't know how else to jump to that— 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000 Yeah. 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.000 So I'll just start there— 00:33:14.000 --> 00:35:10.000 So let me, I'll give you a little history on this cause yeah, you can find I've— people know about this story, so I will tell it. So, in 1985 in the world, there was a different world order. There was a Soviet Union, it had not broken up yet. And the United States. In the Soviet Union, there were a lot of people that wanted to leave, they wanted religious freedom, they wanted freedom of intellect, of thought, of culture. And the Soviet government was really coming down on people who wanted something other than what the Soviet, what the Soviet government wanted. So Jewish people were persecuted. Catholic people were persecuted ; Poets, artists, scientists, people who were thinking outside the box. There were some very famous scientists who were jailed. (Andrei) Sakharov (physicist and Novel Peace Prize laureate) is one of them, but— so it was a crazy time. There were a lot of human rights abuses going on. And if people wanted to leave the Soviet Union, specifically Jewish people, they could apply for a visa to leave, to immigrate. But in so doing, they would often lose their jobs, maybe get beaten up or their kids harassed or even put into jail as a disruptor. 00:35:10.000 --> 00:36:41.000 It also was the height of the Cold War. And it turns out, in hindsight it was a crazy time of real spies. Both in the US from Soviet Union, Soviet Union in— US people in the Soviet Union. And it was the heightened tensions of that time were phenomenal. But most people didn't know about the, those governmental heightened tensions. What we did know was one way to get information and to support Jewish people specifically— cause I was working with groups that supported Jewish, what were called Refuseniks, meaning that they had applied to leave and were refused— was to get tourist visas to go into the Soviet Union. Go visit Jewish refuseniks and bring them medicine or information about their field. If someone was an engineer, and now because they applied to leave, they might be an elevator operator. Bringing in like professional information that they couldn't get anymore. And taking out their stories, because there was a feeling at the time, and I think that's true today, is if people in the West (term often referring to nations in Western Europe, Northern America, and Australia) know about human rights abuses and the people, then they have some sort of opportunity to get out. Or for protection. 00:36:41.000 --> 00:37:19.000 Because if no one knows about you, it's easy for them, meaning a government— And I mean, what's going on today in our government is similar and very scary— but you could be disappeared. So having people know about you is really important. There was a reporter from Britain who worked for The Guardian (news)paper, who had gone into Soviet Union and somehow made his way to the state of Georgia. Georgia in the Soviet Union, okay? Not Georgia, here in the United States. 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:20.000 Thank you for the clarity. 00:37:20.000 --> 00:41:09.000 And now it's a country, and found this group of amazing human rights activists. That included Jewish refuseniks, Catholic Refuseniks, dissidents, meaning people who were trying to change the government. Helsinki monitors. The Helsinki Accords were that everyone should be able to leave a country if they were being persecuted. So, there were all these people in Tbilisi, Georgia (capital city) who had gathered together. And the way they were trying to get their word out to the West was by playing music and holding concerts. And they called themselves The Phantom Orchestra. So once a couple of organizations in the West heard about this Phantom Orchestra, they thought, “Okay, let's see if we could find any musicians who would be,” in my words, “crazy enough to go in and meet with them.” Because going in, there was a certain risk that you could get harassed or, hardly anyone ever got arrested, but deported. And the reason to go in to meet them would be to bring them support, you know, just support people to people ; to take their stories out, to find out more about them. There was a group in Boston that was aligned with Amnesty International (an international non-governmental organization that supports human rights), which is a famous group that works on behalf of people who are, have been victims of human rights abuses. And the group in Boston was called Action for Soviet Jewry. So, people who worked on behalf of Jews, Jewish people in the Soviet Union who were refuseniks or had been jailed, this or that. They approached Hankus, who I mentioned earlier, and said, “We'd like to send in a small ensemble of musicians to go meet with these folks. Would you be game?” And Hankus right away was game. And then he thought, “Merryl probably would be really interested”. So he approached me and I thought, “Heck yeah, I'm in.” And then we needed a singer and someone who played like guitar and mandolin. The singer's name is Rosalie Gerut, and the guitarist is Jeff Warschauer. And we all played together in Boston. And long story short, we— the four of us agreed to go in, but it had to be on the sly. We couldn't tell anybody what we were doing because it, you couldn't go in on, especially on a tourist visa and go visit people. It had to be done in secret. Moreso you couldn't go in and have refusenik's names or addresses or phone numbers written down, because if upon arrival they were discovered you'd be deported right away. They would know that you weren't ordinary tourists. And so we were, we got visas, we got tourist visas, and of course we brought in instruments with us so we could play. Which is already a little bit of a, you know, anomaly cause tourists often don't come in with musical instruments, right. But we were a small ensemble and, we said, “Well, we always travel with our instruments cause we always rehearse.” So we had to develop a secret code so we could write down people's information, write down questions we needed to ask, be able to take out stories in code. And so I developed a secret code written in music notes. 00:41:09.000 --> 00:43:12.000 And what was really amazing was we arrived in Moscow (capital and largest city of the Soviet Union, now Russia), and maybe they had gotten some tip off that we were coming and wanted to meet people. Or maybe our instruments gave us away. But right at arrivals in Moscow, we all were searched thoroughly. I mean, just crazy. Opened up everything in our suitcases and went through my music ; page by page by page, but then handed it back. That was score one for our ability to fight the KGB (Committee for State Security of the Soviet Union that succeeded secret police) or be in competition with the KGB. Of course, then we ended up being interrogated. And that part was pretty scary. Ultimately, we made it from Moscow to Tbilisi. And by hook or by crook, we did end up meeting with the Phantom Orchestra and performing with them in an apartment, not in a (concert) hall. And orchestra really wasn't the right word. It was more like a ragtag group of musicians. And they told us their stories and we wrote them and we recoded it back in music so we could take it out with us. And these were stories of how people's lives were upended and how much like sadly what's going on right now in our country. People were taken off the street, locked up, put in jails just because of their activism for wanting to buck the system. And just asked to leave the country or for wanting to monitor human rights. 00:43:12.000 --> 00:45:34.000 So, I will say two things. The people we met were phenomenally courageous human beings. And two, playing music together was how I learned that even under the harshest of circumstances, one can find freedom, freedom in your mind. And that's freedom over anyone who is either jailing you or harassing you. You have that power to be free in your brain. No matter what happens. So, during the course of that trip, we were interrogated, harassed, at one point told we— the KGB told us they couldn't guarantee our safety. We told this to the people we were meeting who gave us advice and said, “Look, it might, you might end up getting arrested,” which ultimately we did. “Keep in mind, you are not the first to be arrested.” You know, “you are part of a whole group of people. Know that. Two, play music even if you're just singing together cause that will give you respite. Three, remember that because you're Americans, it's unlikely they will keep you for a very long time.” You know, “You'll be some kind of bargaining chip for something, but you'll get out.” And ultimately we were put under house arrest. The, probably the, well, by the time we were put under house arrest, we had become emboldened because the people we met were so strong and capable and very laser centered in what they knew they needed and wanted with regard to the rights of humanity. So we started talking back to KGB and we're crazily bold in hindsight. The only time that, well, there were a number of times that were scary. Interrogations were scary. 00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:37.000 I can imagine. 00:45:37.000 --> 00:47:53.000 Yeah. (laughter). Yeah. And at two times they put us, they separated Rosalie and I, put— I mean, separated Rosalie and I from Hankus and Jeff, put us in cars. Rosalie and I were in one car, Jeff and Hankus were in another car. There were KGB car in front of us, KGB car in back of us. We didn't have our passports. They took those away. I don't even think we had our luggage. I know we didn't have our luggage in at least one circumstance. Drove us for hours. At that point, I thought, “Oh God, they really are gonna lock us up, like in a bad prison.” Ultimately they didn't, they put us in a dormitory. But those tactics were meant to scare us. But I do remember having an epiphany at one point, especially in the very long car ride, thinking, “Okay, whatever happens, I can handle this. It's gonna be okay.” So end of story, we were deported. We ended up in Sweden and we ended up back in the United States. We worked with not only Jewish organizations, but with Catholic charities. We worked with our senator, who was Ted Kennedy (lawyer and Massachusetts Senator from 1962 to 2009) at the time. And we also worked on the Hill (Capitol Hill, home to Congress, the Supreme Court, and other federal institutions) in Washington, DC with many members of Congress and many members of the Senate. And ultimately, when (Ronald) Reagan (US President from 1981 to 1989) and (Mikhail) Gorbachev (Soviet Union leader from 1985 to 1991) had their summit, human rights was on the top of Ronald Reagan's list (Reykjavík Summit October 11th and 12th, 1986). And many of the people that we had met were actually named on lists that Reagan brought to Gorbachev. So ultimately, many of the people that we met with were freed and let, able to lead the Soviet Union. Some people disappeared into wherever, and we're not sure what happened to some people. But the people who really wanted to get out ended up being able to get out. So it was a real life changing experience, I can tell you that. 00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:17.000 Yeah. It's amazing to know that you were able to help other people get freed from that kind of persecution. I love what you were saying about freedom in the mind, and you learning that, and you having that epiphany in the car. I'm just curious more— I'm curious to hear more about that concept and your like— 00:48:17.000 --> 00:50:30.000 Yeah, so another like really good example of this, I don't, I didn't know it at the time, but I learned it afterwards. So, during the Civil Rights Movement here in the United States, it was very common when African American activists were being picked up and put in paddy wagons for their outspokenness and for their— look for their fight, for just human rights as people. Often when they were arrested, they would break out in song. And that is so powerful because it's taking power, it's taking space. That song, singing together, is saying, “You might have us, locked up, or you might have us in handcuffs, you might have us in paddy wagons, but we are still strong. And our music gives us that strength. And you can never take that away from us. You can lock us up, you can do whatever you want, but you can't take away: our sense of what is right, our power, and our work to achieve civil rights.” So I think music, music and sports, or chess, many of these things give people not only pleasure and entertainment but give you the tools to under harsh circumstances ; whether they're something that happens with your family that's just unfortunate or something that happens in school, or kids who get bullied. The arts can be that retreat to center yourself and empower yourself and give you confidence to be able to make it through things. 00:50:30.000 --> 00:51:02.000 Right. And it makes sense that then you apply that to your work here with ART=OPPORTUNITY and Center ARTES. Giving people—reassuring freedom in the mind, and your ability to create art is—you can use those tools elsewhere. I love hearing how people can apply creativity in the real world. So how do you help students? How do you remind students of that? 00:51:02.000 --> 00:52:52.000 You know, it's by doing. So all my classes and all of our professional development workshops, whether for students or teachers or administrators or staff, all of them are hands-on, where we give people things to do. So I'll give you a little example. One of my favorite things is— I'll give it not a music example, a drawing example. drawing from the inside out. Let's say you have, I'll give you a shell and I won't tell you where it is. Oh, I can make it a music example too. But I'll give you the shell example. I'll have my students draw a shell, like, but in a fun way, like either upside down or from the middle and draw out. And while they're drawing, I ask them two questions, “One, what do you notice and what do you wonder?” When they're drawing the shell, they notice, “Oh, it has different colors, it has stripes, it has ridges, it has a little hole in it, it's chipped. It's got white on the inside and gray on the outside, or some of it looks iridescent.” And then they're noticing all these things. And then I ask them, “What do you wonder?” Well, “Where did the shell come from? Why does it have colors? Like, how the heck does it— Why does this, shell have these colors and that shell has different colors, and how come they're ridges.” And, “Did something live in this shell? Did something eat the thing that was living in the shell. Was the shell always this size? How did it get to be this size?” So, this little tiny exercise sparks curiosity, and curiosity is the bottom line of learning. 00:52:52.000 --> 00:55:16.000 You know, if you're curious about something— and if kids in schools can become curious and have all these questions, your job as a teacher is to just then guide them to find out all the answers. In music, what I'll do, like I play my saxophone all the time when I do keynotes, and I'll do the same thing. I'll play a tune. It's usually a klezmer tune. I usually play a very simple klezmer tune where if I can get an accompanist on guitar or piano, it has only two chords. Very easy to play. And the piece actually sounds like this. (Goldberg vocalizes tune) Anyways, it keeps— it goes on. And I ask people to, you know, anyone from little kids to senior citizen, “What do you notice?” And then, “What do you wonder when you hear the music?” And what they notice, they notice, “Oh, it has a beat. Oh, I'm music— I'm moving.” They notice a, that it has sounds like maybe something— little kids will always say, “Oh, it sounds like something from Aladdin. Or maybe a snake charmer, or—” they notice so many things. And then when I ask 'em, “What do they wonder?” They're like, “How did you learn to play that tune? Where is it from? Does it have a name? What is it really about?” And in fact, the music has just, again, sparked so much curiosity within that little tiny kernel (central or essential part) of a five minute exercise of, “What do you notice, what do you wonder?” They've hit on, okay: culture, history, geography, how people learn to play. It’s just so, it's so rich. And so, yes, for me, engaging and getting people to understand about the power of the arts and learning is all about by engaging them in some kind of exercise. 00:55:16.000 --> 00:57:39.000 And then one of the really cool things is every exercise is just a kernel. So, if you go back to the shells, you can look at the kids, or teachers, what they notice and what they wonder, what they've written down. Ask them to circle five words and then create a poem out of it, and then create a two person poem out of it, or create a song, or you can always do more. You can always learn more from what has been sparked. Now the importance of that is: creativity is always gonna be the thing that moves us forward, right? So, knowing a lot of facts is good, and knowing history is really good. Cause we need the foundations and we can go to Google or whatever and find things out very quickly these days. Don't even have to look it up. But being creative, being imaginative, being reflective, seeing what other people do and appreciating it, those are the skills that arts can teach us that I find just so phenomenal. And the arts bring us together in ways where we see each other in different lights. If this group makes this poem or acts something out in this way, this group is like, “Oh, wow, I had never thought about that. Or I never knew that kid could act or could sing or, wow.” And so one of the byproducts of the arts is also this opportunity to embrace compassion and empathy. And, oh my God, if there's one thing in this world that we've got to have if we're gonna survive as a civilization, is empathy. And so, I get really worried when I hear some people in government or not government, poo-pooing the notion of empathy or compassion. 00:57:39.000 --> 00:59:27.000 And we've got to, got to place empathy, compassion, mindfulness as central to, in my opinion, to who we are as people and how we learn. And that’s why I really do love the arts. By the way, I also am a boxer. I've been boxing for years, and I love it. It's so much like music. Jab, jab, cross, uppercut, uppercut (motions as demonstration) is very much rhythmic. But one of the things if you watch a boxing match is it's not only like music in terms of the actual rhythm of the punches, but in a boxing match itself it's very much like jazz. It's all improvisation because you have to be so connected with your opponent that you are paying close attention. And if they do one thing, you do another thing. So it's playing off of each other, playing off of each other. And, the actual punching aside, at the end of a boxing match, almost always, you see the boxers embrace each other. That's because it's been such a intimate dance with each other, and they're very appreciative of each other. Before a fight, they're gonna be talking whatever, because that's what their mindset is. But when you're actually engaged in something like that in boxing, it really is a very close—you're so connected to that person that it's not surprising to me to see that at the end of matches, more often than not, folks embracing each other. 00:59:27.000 --> 01:00:22.000 Thank you for explaining that cause I've never been into the boxing, or whatever. So, the comparison of boxing— I've heard the dance (comparison), but like I still didn't understand. I'm—yes, the, but specifically the jab, jab punches, like as rhythmic, that really clicked in my brain. And as you were saying—or I was thinking this earlier, a lot of what I've learned in most of my favorite classes as a student, they've stuck from music that either a guest has come into my class and performed. Or just remembered that in connection to a lesson. Or it's a movie. So, can you talk more about STEAM and how you integrate art with other professions that maybe some people respect a little more, to be blunt? 01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:24.000 Oh, like, give me a profession. 01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:26.000 So— 01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:31.000 Oh, go ahead. Nevermind. I, well no, you give me a profession actually, and then I can tell you. 01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:42.000 Yeah. Cause my, in my brain, it's like, as a history major, I understand I'm not gonna be making as much money as like an engineer, let's say. So, engineering, I guess. 01:00:42.000 --> 01:03:31.000 Engineering. Great. Okay. Indeed, we actually did a little study over at ViaSat (communications company), which is a huge—has a lot of engineers. So, they’re high tech company, very into the internet. And if you've been on an airplane, it's pretty much ViaSat’s, whatever it is. Their systems that run the internet on airplanes. Okay, I had heard that Qualcomm (software and wireless technology company) and Boeing (aircraft manufacturer) and ViaSat were hiring people who had arts backgrounds because they really wanted engineers, especially people that worked there, who could: think outside the box, work well with each other, have the ability to reflect, and also be super disciplined, right? So, they were purposefully hiring people who had arts backgrounds, cause they figured people in the arts, especially in music, or any of the arts, can think outside the box. Musicians have to work well with each other, have to be able to—in a band you can't be just playing the trombone and the trumpet player playing something different. You have to work together in order to make a nice piece of music. So, we did a study and we found out that indeed most of the engineers at ViaSat had arts in their background. And then we went a step further and we asked, “Okay, how did the arts make a difference in what you're doing?” And some of the engineers said, “It helped me think about electrical kind of connections in ways that were out of the box.” So, “My music background gave me the ability to think in different ways and see things from different angles. It helped me work with others, especially people I didn't like. Because in a music band, I had to work with people I didn't like in order to make music, right? Helped me—" And so you can see those are just two examples of that. We actually have more written about that study on the art— It's, I think the Center ARTES (online) site. We have our research studies, or the ART=OPPORTUNITY. If you go into research, we have those studies. But let me give you a couple of other examples. 01:03:31.000 --> 01:04:52.000 Medical students at UCSD right here are required to take visual arts classes because the visual arts, learning how to see closely, helps them understand and how to diagnose things better. It gives them those skills of looking at things more deeply and from different angles. An ophthalmologist I met with just like within the last month, sent me a study where they had a first, like first year ophthalmology students, so people who studied the eyes, and they broke them into two groups. One group of students, about thirty of them, had six lessons in how to look at art. And the other group didn't have the lessons at all. And then they were tested on the things that they could see in the eye, because they're studying to be eye doctors, right? The students who had the art classes outperformed the students that were in the control group. Like crazy. In a significant manner. It shows you studying the arts can absolutely then transfer over to other areas. 01:04:52.000 --> 01:06:57.000 NYPD, New York Police Department, has their recruits watch theater. And one of the theater pieces that they have done is a piece by Janet (Leola Langhart) Cohen (American author and journalist), written as a fictional version of Emmett Till and Anne Frank (titled “Anne and Emmett”). Emmett Till was a young boy who was murdered (during the) Civil Rights era (in 1955), black young man. And Anne Frank was murdered in the—she died in (1945) a concentration camp during the Holocaust. And Janet Cohen wrote this amazing play, which is not depressing it actually is in some ways uplifting, of the two of them having a conversation with each other. And the reason why NYPD in the past has used this play is because they want their recruits to be empathetic to the people that they serve, and they really understand the power of theater as a way to teach about empathy. So that's another example. Also in New York, the public library has this really cool program for new citizens on teaching how to learn history. So this is a really cool thing. They do it all through famous paintings in American history. And what they found is because people are attaching what they're learning to this really cool visual, a famous painting, they remember the history lessons so much better and do so much better on the test, the citizenship tests. Those are just a couple of examples, in real life, how the arts make it a real difference in learning. 01:06:57.000 --> 01:07:24.000 Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Just from a professor who actually implements some of these things here, and obviously beyond as you mentioned earlier, it's— I've always valued the, being immersed in arts and classes, so thank you for for doing that. I feel like it's probably your responsibility that I've gotten some of the classes I've gotten. 01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:24.956 Aw, thanks. 01:07:24.956 --> 01:07:46.000 Yeah, of course. (brief interruption in recording) Okay. So earlier you were mentioning music was how you got people's stories out. I was, I'm particularly want to ask about why was it so important to get people's stories out? Like what about their stories mattered? 01:07:46.000 --> 01:10:59.000 Yeah. So to get the stories out meant that people in the West could then use those stories as a way to highlight the human rights abuses that were going on. And by highlighting it, it was harder for the Soviets then to imprison or to disappear people, because if people in the west knew about you, you would have a much better possibility of actually getting a visa to leave. If people didn't know about you, it would be easy to, say, “Eh,” for the Soviets to do whatever they wanted. I, you know, at the time we're doing this, oral history is at, you know, a crazy point in American history with Trump being the president only for a couple months. And already there's been people who have disappeared or been taken off the street or out of classroom, a classroom. And so what we found, even in our time in history, keeping those people's names and what happened to them front and center means that there's less of a possibility of something horrible happening to them. In the case of a family from New York, it was a mom and three kids, and they were actually taken. I'm not sure if it was from their home or for, from school, but the school principal and the whole town, in this small town in New York, were so upset by this and so distraught. And these were folks who were in the process of having all of their paperwork correct. Had done nothing wrong. Well, the town spoke up in a way that was significant, and as of today, they're back in their homes. And so there is real power in making sure that others, or people in power are held to account. And that people, things don't happen to people without justification. Because when that happens, we really, as a people, are in a terrible, horrible place. Especially for the people who are taken and have done absolutely nothing wrong. So again, you've caught me at this, this moment in history where I see things that happened in the former Soviet Union or perhaps are happening in Russia today, happening here in the United States. It's just unconscionable. So, it makes what we did in my experiences, even more important as a story today. 01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:24.000 Absolutely. Do you think if you had spoken to yourself, as you were developing this code in which we talked about, would you have thought that Merryl would then be sitting in this room, in the state that this country is in? 01:11:24.000 --> 01:13:24.000 No. Never. And I think most people probably feel that way. My guess is even folks who supported Trump, or Republicans or whatever, I don't think anybody expected things to be as cuckoo, crazy, upside down, scary as they are in this particular moment. And I don't think, it makes me really wonder why, especially in the House of Representatives or the Senators, why it's taking so long for people to stand up. Especially when people's rights are jeopardized. We should be better than that. We should know better than that. Bullies should never win. If it takes even, you know, one person to one person or movements to really just crush things that shouldn't happen, then we have to rise up. I really feel that. And I also feel like in moments like this where people might feel so frightened or scared, maybe some people like what's going on, but I doubt it. It's also important not to get so caught up in everything that you can't find moments of joy. And that's where the arts also help us, or getting out of our heads. Or, for me, playing music and going to my boxing classes are moments where I'm not thinking about anything else. And boy, is that a self-resourcing tool. 01:13:24.000 --> 01:13:45.000 Right. Earlier you mentioned art as an escape, but then in the same breath, an escape from maybe awful times, but also in that escape you're learning tools or just learning different, gathering different skills that you can use elsewhere. 01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:47.000 Yeah, for sure. 01:13:47.000 --> 01:14:22.000 Yeah. well thank you again for sharing about music and how it can be applied to activism. I want to now talk about how you—sorry. Where that originates from. Earlier you were mentioning growing up and having activism in your family, or— 01:14:22.000 --> 01:17:23.000 Yeah. So, I think many people of my age who are Jewish, most likely their grandparents immigrated. So they came from very bad situations where they had to escape either the Holocaust or pogroms which were in Czarist Russia (Imperial Russia 1547 to 1917) or other countries where Jewish people were just— like in “Fiddler on the Roof,” come in and just destroy everything or it is just terrible. So when people came here, I think there was a sense of like, never again. And certainly after the Holocaust, “Never forget, never again” (a phrase that encourages people to denounce the Holocaust and other genocides) is something that's very important. But growing up, my parents were very attuned to that, a just society where people have opportunities. And so as a kid, my mom was very active in starting a chapter of the League of Women Voters in Massachusetts, which was, today, League of Women Voters is so important. It gives information to the public on different voting issues, and candidates. It’s a nonpartisan group. As a little kid, my mom would have me parade around our little town just outside of Boston. My dad put a, made a sandwich board and it said, “Follow me to register to vote.” So I remember those things. And then I grew up in the sixties. I was young in the sixties. I was born in 1959. During that time, we had the Vietnam War, and a lot of people were protesting against the Vietnam War. And my family, along with many, many other families in our little community joined up with the Unitarian Church (a sect of Christianity), who was very active in anti-Vietnam protests. And so that was part of my upbringing as well. And through Jewish groups, we also were always learning and figuring out issues of social justice. It was baked into my childhood, there's no question about it. That from a very early age, being someone who is active in society and was doing things to make a difference in a better world was part of, part of who I was. I, there was no escaping it, not that I would want to escape it— (Goldberg laughs) 01:17:23.000 --> 01:17:28.000 Right. Do you think it's ever too late to become— 01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:29.000 Never. 01:17:29.000 --> 01:17:30.000 Engaged? 01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:32.000 Never too late to become engaged. 01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:35.000 How does one start? 01:17:35.000 --> 01:18:08.000 I think by first just understanding that there are multiple sides to any picture. There are— it's really important to understand context and to learn and be curious, and always question things. So, especially now, just cause you see something on the internet doesn't mean it's true. As convincing as it may seem— 01:18:08.000 --> 01:18:09.000 With AI (artificial intelligence). 01:18:09.000 --> 01:18:11.000 And with AI, that— (overlapping dialogue) 01:18:11.000 --> 01:18:12.000 Oh, sorry, you were saying that-- 01:18:12.000 --> 01:20:40.000 Yeah, no, that's really, I mean— my daughter, who's twenty-six, uses AI all the time. And she's discerning. But yeah, you gotta really question things, you know? But it's really important to look at things from multiple lenses and to always keep a lens of fairness, of equity, of background. It's understanding that not everyone has had the same opportunity as other people, and that's no fault of their own. And I think one thing that's really lost in a lot of what's going on right now is again, a lack of caring. It matters that people are losing their jobs. It matters that someone who's doing research in pediatric cancer is able to continue doing that research. The lack of empathy in our society right now, or maybe not our society, but in our leaders, in the people who are in power, is shocking. And it is never too late for people to stand up. It's never too late to keep trying. It's never too late to vote people out. It's never too late to do something small or to do something big. What is a lesson that I've learned is that silence is being complicit. And so, we all have a role in our joint community of human beings to not be silent when we see something. I think the arts have given me more of that power. 01:20:40.000 --> 01:23:48.000 And of course, some of my experiences and my, the context of my background, some of the foundational things I learned as a kid give you, gave me— my mom went on to run for our local what was it, public authority, where you make decisions on like public housing and that kind of stuff. And I helped her campaign, and it was a really hard campaign because people used horrible anti-Semitic language, calling my mom a dirty Jew or this or that. Like out loud, right? And she ultimately lost her election. But then the governor, who was governor Michael Dukakis at the time, there was a opening on that same authority, and he appointed her. And I'll never forget, it's, even in that awful kind of context of what we experience, there was a upside. And there was some justice. But boy, all of that is a learning thing. It's people who are Jewish, people who are Muslim, people who are in minority groups aside from religions have to learn these lessons, sadly over and over. And yeah, it's not easy. On the other hand, there is a lot of power in understanding who you are and the camaraderie of others. In this particular moment, and this is again just saying, this is at this moment in happens with this interview, the weaponization of antisemitism or the cause of the Palestinian people is just horrible. And that's something that is, again, so important for people to understand the nuances. And not to use people against other people. I mean, human beings in Gaza who don't have food are not pawns of governments. They're human beings. People who are coming down on Jewish people, we are not pawns. There's good people, bad people, everything in between everywhere. We have to learn to work together and not to use people for other causes. I don't know. I'm a little bit on my high horse there, so (laughter). 01:23:48.000 --> 01:24:15.000 No, I agree and specifically with your, “We are not pawns.” We're human beings, and understanding humans with stories. So, thank you so much for sharing your story. I hope you're able to use this interview even just to share with your family. I'm sure they'd appreciate hearing all these stories to preserve them. 01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:25.000 Thanks. You know what, to bring it back around, I hadn't really thought about, but you're absolutely right. And what we did with, in the Soviet Union was bring out people's stories. 01:24:25.000 --> 01:24:29.000 Exactly. And just quickly, one last question. 01:24:29.000 --> 01:24:30.000 Yeah. 01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:43.000 The music and the code that you brought back, I'm assuming it was preserved, or their stories preserved, or like how does— because this interview will be preserved with Special Collections, so yeah, just curious. 01:24:43.000 --> 01:27:28.000 Yeah. So a couple of things. My, the code, we kept the code secret for almost thirty years. And it has come to light, and it came to light very serendipitously. I was at a dinner with someone I had never met, guy named Chuck Davis (runs the cybersecurity blog "Between the Hacks") and his wife, they were in cybersecurity. I had no idea about cybersecurity. He's telling me, “Oh, well cybersecurity, we do this, we keep this safe, blah, blah, blah.” And I said, “Well, it, this isn’t cybersecurity, but I've got a story.” And I told him the whole Soviet story, and he was like, “Oh my God.” And he immediately connected with people in cybersecurity. They have this ginormous conference once a year, and it's called RSA (RSA Security LLC, formed in 1982, is a computer and cybersecurity company that was named for co-founders Ron Rivest, Adi Shamir, and Leonard Adleman). And I don't remember what that stands for, but it's a cybersecurity conference. And I ended up being a keynote, and then I ended up becoming friends and doing a little work for the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency for the United States. Because the head of the, it's called CISA, at the time, her name is Jen Easterly, she obviously left when the government changed, she recognized also the power of the arts. And when you look, when you think about cybersecurity, at a very little level, it is, if you can distill it down, it's all about stopping very creative bad guys from doing very bad things. Well, how do you stop or get ahead of bad guys or gals doing bad things? You have to be more creative. You have to work well with each other. You have to think outside the box. And again, the arts give you those skills. That's, I've become very active in that world. But my music and my story has been on display at the NSA, National Security Agency, in (Wahington) DC at a cryptological museum. That's a national museum. It's at— on display in LA (Los Angeles) currently at Wende Museum, which is a Cold War museum. W-E-N-D-E, which is a fabulous museum in LA. And actually, in summer 2026, there'll be a book coming out on my Soviet experience co-authored with Vince Houghton, who is the director of the National Cryptological Museum for the NSA. So, we are co-authoring a book that will be published by HarperCollins (one of the largest English language publishing companies). So, yeah, pretty cool stuff. 01:27:28.000 --> 01:27:34.000 That's super exciting. Is it specifically based on your experience going to Moscow? Or— 01:27:34.000 --> 01:27:36.000 Yep. The whole Phantom Orchestra story. 01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:37.000 Okay. Right. 01:27:37.000 --> 01:27:59.000 And it includes background of what was going on at the time, which was how dangerous it actually was over there, because of the whole real spies. I mean, we were like little tiny spies, but not government seekers, nothing. But the real spies. It was the height of dangerous activity. 01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:12.000 Right. I consider you a spy, or like at least a story smuggler. Or something like that (Goldberg laughs and affirms) Because you were definitely—An espionage artist or something. 01:28:12.000 --> 01:28:14.000 Yeah. 01:28:14.000 --> 01:28:21.000 Yeah. Well, again, thank you so much for sharing your story. Yes, thank you. 01:28:21.000 --> 01:28:22.000 Well, thanks for having me. (overlapping dialogue) 01:28:22.000 --> 01:28:22.068 Of course. 01:28:22.068 --> 01:28:22.908 That was really great. 01:28:22.908 --> 01:28:23.908 Yeah, thanks. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Goldberg, Merryl. Interview, April 9, 2025 Description An account of the resource Dr. Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-078 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES California State University San Marcos. Music California State University San Marcos. 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Soviet Union Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Merryl Goldberg License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Activists and activism Art and artists CSUSM history History Department internship Jewish experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Suzy Karasik Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Carol Graham OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GrahamCarol_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-04_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Graham, Carol. Interview November 4, 2022 SC027-028 0:57:21 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Master gardeners -- California -- San Diego County ; Gardening -- California -- San Diego County ; Crops -- Diseases and pests -- Biological control ; Organic farming ; University of California (System). Cooperative Extension ; San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station (Calif.) ; San Diego State University ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; North San Diego County Carol Graham Suzy Karasik mp4 GrahamCarol_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-04_access.mp4 1:|19(7)|31(3)|64(8)|98(15)|120(17)|143(6)|160(4)|192(7)|213(5)|238(9)|260(11)|278(6)|297(5)|311(5)|330(12)|351(7)|366(12)|378(16)|390(5)|408(9)|438(13)|468(11)|512(9)|545(9)|557(6)|597(15)|620(5)|661(5)|683(7)|704(6)|717(9)|742(5)|780(10)|797(11)|815(3)|832(12)|867(6)|885(8)|899(7)|931(11)|955(12)|972(13)|998(9)|1017(14)|1037(14)|1065(8)|1083(12)|1105(3)|1119(17)|1143(8)|1171(12)|1189(6)|1231(11)|1265(7)|1300(13)|1333(10)|1364(10)|1423(4) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/fbbe71e14ed9626f02df6a69bc6e6491.mp4 Other video English 0 Childhood and introduction to gardening Carol Graham recalls her childhood in San Diego, CA. Graham was born in North Claremont and explains that her mother introduced her to gardening. She explains that her mother planted fruit trees in their garden, and her experience gardening with her mother gave her the necessary tools to plant similar fruit trees in her current home in Encinitas, CA. She also briefly discusses her father’s career as Marine, which led their family to moving to Virginia for three years. Encinitas (Calif.) ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; North County San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego (Calif.) ; U.S. Marines ; Virginia 0 191 College education/ Background in insects Carol Graham discusses her college education at San Diego State University. She earned a Bachelor’s degree in Zoology. She explains that she has always had an interest in animals and insects. She provides scientific background on the lady beetle and the mosquito to the interviewer, and explains the gardening and pest management education she provides to the community as a Master Gardener. She explains that many people are afraid of pests, or believe them to be harmful to plants and crops, and spray them with pesticides or kill them. Graham had also brought a few puppets to the interview, which she uses for a demonstration while discussing insects and pest management to the interviewer. Gardening ; Insects ; Lady beetles ; Master Gardeners ; Mosquitos ; Pest management ; San Diego State University ; Zoology 0 436 Four stages of pest management/ Pesticides Carol Graham describes the four stages of Integrated Pest Management: Identify, Understand, Assess, and Control. She also discusses the topic of pesticides. She explains that pesticides are the most toxic form of pest management, and Master Gardeners encourage others to try other forms of pest management first, such as cultural, physical, and biological approaches. Additionally, she provides other pieces of advice, such as purchasing pesticides that do not harm edible plants and containing the use of pesticides to only one area of a garden to prevent the spread of toxic chemicals. Graham had brought an Integrated Pest Management poster board to the interview, which she uses for the pest management demonstration portion of the interview. Environmentalism ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; Pest management ; Pesticides 0 959 Career at San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One Carol Graham discusses her career at San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One. She began working there a year after earning her Bachelor’s degree from San Diego State University in Zoology. She describes her work in decreasing the amount of shut downs at the onsite Nuclear Generating Station during the winter, which saved the company money. She explains that every eight weeks, the Nuclear Generating Station would shut down in order to heat-treat and chemical treat the water intake system and kill the biophaline. She describes her work of measuring the biophaline and proving that they were growing slower during the wintertime, which resulted in fewer shut downs. She also briefly explains gender equality at the Plant, working alongside her husband, and the equipment utilized in her work. Additionally, she reflects on the topic of nuclear power and explains that she would like to see the country move more into clean energy. Biology ; Biophaline ; Chemical-treating ; Clean energy ; Environmentalism ; Heat-treating ; Nuclear power ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego State University ; San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One ; Zoology 0 1437 Family background Carol Graham discusses her family’s background. She and her late husband moved to Encinitas, CA over forty years ago. She and her husband had one son together. Her son earned a PhD in astrophysics from Johns Hopkins. Graham also explains her family’s genealogy, with her parents having been born in Minnesota and Ohio, but previous generations originally came from Ireland and England. Her father, as a career Marine, was stationed at Camp Pendleton. Her in-laws, additionally, were originally from Missouri and Scotland. Her father-in-law’s work in the aircraft industry brought him to San Diego, CA. Aircraft industry ; Astrophysics ; Baltimore (Md.) ; Camp Pendleton ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; England ; Genealogy ; Germany ; Ireland ; Johns Hopkins University ; Kansas City (Mo.) ; Kirkcaldy (Scotland) ; Minneapolis (MN) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Ohio ; San Diego (Calif.) ; U.S. Marines 0 1654 Involvement with the Master Gardeners Carol Graham describes how she became involved with the Master Gardeners. After San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One shut down, she enrolled in the Master Gardener volunteer program through the University of California Cooperative Extension in 1983. Graham explains that the Master Gardener program is dedicated to distributing information for an environmentally responsible home and garden. Graham also discusses the importance of researching one’s own microclimate. Education in the microclimate of one’s area will aid in the understanding of which plants will be best suited for different microclimates. This will be beneficial to the healthy growth of plants and trees in one’s garden. Environmentalism ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; Microclimate ; University of California Cooperative Extension 0 1978 Accomplishments/ California drought Carol Graham reflects on her accomplishments, including having the opportunity to help many people through the Master Gardeners program and educating the community about growing their own food. She also discusses other topics related to gardening and the environment, such as edible flowers, the California drought, and drought-tolerant plants. Drought ; Drought tolerant plants ; Edible flowers ; Environmentalism ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; San Diego (Calif.) ; San Diego County (Calif.) 0 2442 Development of Encinitas, CA/ Catching gophers Carol Graham reflects on how she has seen Encinitas, CA develop over time. She comments that the number of local grocery markets has increased since she and her husband first moved to Encinitas. She also discusses other characteristics of the town and of North County, such as its farmers markets, community gardens, and container gardening. Graham also recounts her relationship with her neighbors in Encinitas, and how she has been labelled as the “gopher getter” because she has caught many gophers in the neighborhood. Community ; Community gardens ; Container gardening ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; Farmers markets ; Gardening ; Gophers ; Neighborhood ; Pest management ; The California Rare Fruit Growers 0 2831 Establishment of the Master Gardeners program Carol Graham elaborates on her work with the Master Gardeners program. She explains that the program is a branch of the University of California Cooperative Extension. Their branch is operated through the County Operations Center in Kearny Mesa, CA. She explains the method and funding behind their research in the program. Graham also explains the origins of the establishment of the program in Washington state by an extension agent who decided to train volunteers gardeners to assist home gardeners with their gardening questions. The program now exists in all fifty states in the U.S. County Operations Center ; Gardening ; Kearny Mesa (Calif.) ; Master Gardeners ; University of California Cooperative Extension ; Volunteer ; Washington 0 2965 Composting Carol Graham discusses composting. She provides recommendations for food items to not include in a compost pile which could create odor or attract animals into one’s garden. She also discusses vermicompost, which is a form of composting that relies on earthworms, and explains how to create a successful vermicompost. Graham also dispels common misconceptions about earthworms. Finally, she discusses local companies and organizations that aid the community in environmental matters, such as Miramar and Carlsbad’s desalinization plants, and the Solana Center for Environmental Innovation, which provides started compost kits to the community. Carlsbad (Calif.) ; Compost kits ; Composting ; Desalinization plants ; Earthworms ; Encinitas (Calif.) ; Environmentalism ; Gardening ; Master Gardeners ; San Diego (Calif.) ; The Carlsbad Desalinization Plant ; The Solana Center for Environmental Innovation ; Vermicompost 0 Oral history Carol Graham is a Master Garderner. She has a Bachelor's degree in Zoology and began her career working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One. After its closure, she enrolled to become a Master Gardner volunteer that was sponsered through the University of California Cooperative Extension program. The Master Gardner program is dedicated to distributing information for an environmentally-responsible home and garden. She has been a Master Gardner since 1983 and participates in various events such as EcoFest. She is very passionate about the study of insects, pest management, composting, and protecting the environment from pesticides. April 26, 2023 Transcript Suzy Karasik: Good morning. My name is Suzy Karasik. Today is November 4th and I am interviewing Carol Graham, Master Gardener, native Californian, and so much that we will learn here in part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Carol, thank you for joining me today. (coughs) Carol Graham: (nods) My pleasure. Karasik: And, um, I wanted to just say briefly how I met Carol. I’m part of the EcoFest that we had here in Encinitas a couple of weeks ago. It’s an annual event that we do to educate people to everything involved with the ecology and the environment here in the county. And Carol had an incredible display (Carol gestures with her arms to display the posterboards on a table behind her) with the Master Gardeners, which we’ve been able to set up here and hopefully make it a little bit more readable. (Carol holds up a model of a fly, with a paper flyer attached and hanging below it) And Carol, let’s just start here. As we had discussed, let’s talk a little bit about where you born and your childhood and if any of that happened to prepare you for what was to come in your most interesting life and, um, how you’ve identified yourself over the years and your relationship with the county. So, you can start there. Graham: Well, I was born in North Claremont, the city of San Diego. And my mother was a very avid fruit tree gardener. And I really benefited because when my husband and I moved up here to Encinitas over forty years ago, it’s a similar microclimate to the one I grew up in, which means the fruit trees that I enjoyed--gardening at my mother’s knees, and fell in love with certain varieties of nectarines and other delicious fruits, loquats--I could grow those same varieties here which was nice. Karasik: Yes. Graham: And it was a very pleasant community to grow up in. Karasik: If I may ask, if you don’t mind, what year were you born, or-- Graham: Oh. (chuckles) 1952. Karasik: Okay. Graham: Yes. So, I just recently celebrated--not that many months ago--my 70th birthday. Karasik: Yes! So, tell us a little bit about your school and what it was like here in the North County--well, you were actually down in San Diego-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --as you were growing up. Graham: I went to elementary school and junior high in the city of San Diego. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, my father was a career Marine. So, we had three years in Virginia, and I graduated from high school in Virginia. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And then we came back to San Diego because the house had been rented--not sold. So, we were able to come back to the same garden, the same microclimate, which was great for the garden-- Karasik: Yes. Graham: --the same fruit trees waiting for us-- Karasik: Yes. Graham: --the ones that we had planted earlier. So, it was a very pleasant experience, very supportive of the interests that I continue to enjoy today. Karasik: So–so you graduated from high school in–in–out east, and-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --then you came back out here. What were your–What was your initial work, and-- Graham: Well, I went to S.D.S.U. and earned a bachelor’s degree in Zoology-- Karasik: Mmm. Graham: --because animals have always fascinated me, and that’s not just the animals many people first think of are the gigantic giraffe and interesting hippopotamus, and rhinoceros. But I’m also fascinated by what some people will refer to as the–the bugs (holds up a stuffed toy puppet ladybug, and chuckles). So, um-- Karasik: Let’s talk about the bugs a little bit. Graham: Yeah. Well, I am very pleased to educate people on--well, most people recognize this as one of their favorite bugs in the whole garden, the lady beetle. (has now put on the puppet on her right hand and is holding it up in front of her) People call it the ladybug, but it’s more scientific to call it the lady beetle. Because actually the word “bug” has a derogatory reference. It comes from old English, meaning something unpleasant (makes a face, and gestures with her left hand to indicate something scattering away). So, lady beetle is the more appropriate, better name. And it’s interesting in that its larval stage looks creepy! (holds up another stuffed animal, which appears to be a larval stage representation of the lady beetle). So-- Karasik: I did not know that! Graham: --the larval stage, as I tell people, “Yes, it looks like a creepy, six-legged, micro alligator.” So, it’s very important that we reach out to the public, as Master Gardeners, and inform people “when you see this in the garden, don’t assume it’s something bad.” (she shakes the larval-stage, stuffed animal) For instance, (turns to her right and looks at the posterboard behind her, first to one with the header “IPM” then points to the board with the header “Identify”) one of the first steps of Integrated Pest Manager—which is what I.P.M. stands for—is identify friend or foe. Because if you assume this is bad (holds up the larval stage stuffed toy) and as many people have told me as they come by our Master Gardener exhibit, they had no idea it was a lady beetle larva. They thought it was something bad ‘cuz it looks creepy! You know what they had told me they had done? They sprayed it with pesticide, or they squished it, or they taught their kids to be afraid of it, which was so sad. Especially since this (shakes the larval stage toy) can not do any good if you squish it! (laughs) Um, but I admit, yes, it looks creepy. And we also educate people that not all lady beetles look like this. (Shakes her right hand which has the mature lady beetle puppet on it) Not all of them are red. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: So, we have an assortment of photos that show different colors for the different species ‘cuz it–it’s great to benefit not from just one species of lady beetle (again shakes her puppeted right hand) but several. (Turns to put both of those stuffed toys down on the bench next to her, then holds up a stuffed toy that looks like a mosquito, which has a paper flyer hanging off of it.). And on the dark side, we also need to educate people about this character. Karasik: Ugh. Graham: Now, a Master Gardener friend of mine made both this educational model (again holds up the larval stage toy) and this (holds up mosquito toy). And she made them too pretty, in a way, because this looks, actually, quite attractive. And it is the creepy mosquito! And I think we’ve all been bitten by mosquitoes. And some people don’t realize but the mosquito actually has been given the horrific title of the most deadly animal we share the planet with, because the part it plays vectoring malaria, dengue, yellow fever. Even West Nile virus killed some of our residents here in San Diego County. It was about fifteen, seventeen years ago. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, it’s true that apparently everyone who died of West Nile virus in our county had pre-existing medical conditions or they would have survived. But it’s also true some of those people could be alive today if they hadn’t been bitten by infected mosquitoes. But unfortunately, 3the mosquito larvae are not easily identifiable for people who haven’t been introduced to them. And many of our neighbors are growing mosquito larvae in their bird baths and other water-containing items, children’s toys, and buckets in the garden. Stagnant water is where the mother mosquito likes to lay her eggs. In a few days, those eggs hatch out to larvae. And when I have displayed larvae—‘cuz sometimes I’ll deliberately grow them to have them on exhibit, and I take the lid off the jar only after I make sure they’re just in the larval stage. No adults to fly out and bite people. And I will ask people as they come to the exhibit, “Do you know what this is?” and over half the adults have no idea it’s mosquito larvae, which is very disturbing, because they’re growing them possibly in their gardens. And when they see them, they’re not motivated to dump it out, ‘cuz they don’t know what it is. Karasik: This is so important, and so, uh, (Graham puts down the mosquito toy) so–so much of it is actually unknown to the public. I’m curious, if you wanted to just kind of go through these four stages, if you will. (Carol stands up and turns toward posterboards) And then we’ll talk more about how you even became to be a Master Gardener. But I don’t want to— Graham: Okay. Karasik: --uh, (Carol sits back down again) forget to look at a little bit more of your early days-- Granham: Okay. Karasik: --so we’ll come back. Graham: (she turns toward the board that reads “IPM.”) Well, the first stage in Integrated Pest Management, as I said, is Identify--(points to the posterboard reading “Identify”) friends, and admittedly some of these friends do look creepy--(points to photographs under the subheading “Friends” on that posterboard) Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --and foes. (points to, and circles with her right-hand finger, various photographs under the subheading “Foes”). And here, kind of the star of the show, (circles the middle of the board, which has a collage of photos) indeed, we recognize the adult lady beetle (points to the photo of the lady beetle). I hardly ever see the eggs (points to a photo of lady beetle eggs) and I have my head in the garden a lot, so I’m surprised I don’t see them more often. But, at certain times of the year, I’ll see the larval stage, (points to a photo of a larval lady beetle) and as I said, I’ll admit it looks creepy like a six-legged micro alligator. And the pupal stage (points to a photo of a pupa of a lady beetle). And if, ideally, people would get this in high school or junior high school biology, it would be so helpful for the public health of our communities. And then of course you move on (stands up and points to the posterboard with the subheading “Understand”) to understand relationships, like the sooty mold, which is this black powdery (points to a photo of leaves with black mold on it) material you frequently find on some infected leaves (reads the text above the photos, indicating it with her left hand)—“grows on the honeydew, produced by sucking insects.” So, unfortunately, it’s not uncommon to have aphids or mealybugs or whiteflies or scale. And what goes in one end to their body as food—‘cuz they puncture the tender leaves and they’re sucking the sap—comes out the other end of their body, and instead of calling it like “aphid poop” it's called “honeydew.” Karasik: (chuckles) Graham: And this honeydew is a rich source of food for the growth, unfortunately, of ants which will protect these bad guys and sooty mold to grow. And here (points to a photo of ants) we see the ants will actually chase away the good guys who would eat some of these bad guys. But the ants are kind of protecting the bad guys because they’re eating-- Karasik: That’s their sustenance. Graham: --the honeydew. Yeah. It’s kind of like we-- Karasik: Yeah. Graham: --protect our dairy cattle from predators who might eat them, because we want to milk them and benefit from them. Karasik: Right, right. Graham: (then points to the text toward the bottom with her left hand) And understanding leads to multiple control approaches--biological, cultural, chemical, physical. There’s quite a diversity there. (She then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Assess,” points to the text with her left hand, and reads) And assess. Butterflies and moths are pollinators. Butterfly and moth larvae are consumers. Well, some bugs, I say they’re like children. They don’t always behave. They do some good and some bad (chuckles). And you have to kind of evaluate how it interacts in your garden. (points directly to the camera and whispers “The screen went dark. Is that a problem? Appears to wait for answer, and then says “okay,” and continues) You have to assess how they interact (using her left hand, she circles above a diagram showing the cycle of interaction of insects) in your garden, whether the bit of bad they do is less than the good they do. So, you can label them a good or a bad. Um, and of course, the green fruit beetle (points to the bottom of the board, to a photo of a beetle). Well, some people label it a pest, because it will attack, damage overripe soft fruits--peach, nectarines, plums, apricot--'cuz it’s drawn to the fragrance. But, the grub, which admittedly looks creepy, is a fantastic decomposer. And it’s in all our compost piles, helping break things down. And it has a strict diet of eating rotting organic matter only. Although, it does look similar to the June Beetle grubs which eat live plant roots and tubers and corms. So, I try and teach people how to tell the difference-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: (then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Control” and points to a pyramid illustration) --and then the control aspects, from cultural which is considered benign approach ; mechanical and physical--I mean, just physically pulling (with her left hand, mimics pulling off the insects from the photos on the “Assess” posterboard) the snails off your plants ; biological--reloos–reducing–releasing--excuse me--lady beetles, or recognizing the lady beetle larvae that you do have so you don’t accidentally spray it with pesticide ; to chemical (points to the top of the pyramid on “Control” posterboard). And all these different approaches are out there (waves her left hand above the pyramid) and they should be assessed and see how they fit into your garden. So, I think that (waves her left hand in front of all four posterboards, indicating totality) kind of reviews them all. Karasik: Pretty much covers that. Before we go back to your childhood, I’m going to pause here just for a minute (Graham sits back down and nods) Karasik: Okay, Carol. I think probably one of the most important aspects of this beautiful background that you chose to bring is the chemical aspect of the pest management. (Carol points to the pyramid on the “Control” posterboard) So, let’s talk a little bit about that and the toxicity because I’m thinking that our descendants that may be watching this oral history in the years to come will know a whole lot–a lot more about what would have been a more wise pest management than we do now. Graham: (again pointing at the posterboard) Well, the chemical aspect is considered the most toxic, and we want you to try the cultural, physical, and biological approaches first. And under the chemical (reads the text on the posterboard, which I’ve designated in quotations) “Use only in combination with the other controls.” It’s not like you have to use only these or only the chemical. You can use them together. And hopefully you won’t even have to go to the chemicals. Hopefully, you can control it by the other approaches. “Use a pest–pest specific non-broad-spectrum pesticide.” In other words, if you do feel you have to use a chemical pesticide, don’t spray the whole garden, and make sure that before you buy any pesticide you carefully read the container and that it mentions the specific pest you’re trying to address, ‘cuz there are pesticides out there that would be totally wasted if you bought this pesticide and it didn’t apply to this pest that you were trying to control. Karasik: Right. Graham: And yet you introduce something toxic into the environment unnecessarily--very undesirable, of course. “Select the least toxic pesticide to reduce potential risks. Always read and follow directions on the pesticide label. It’s the law.” And as I tell people, well, the first thing you read before you buy any pesticide is will it address your target, you also want to make sure is it okay to put on the plant you want to put it on, ‘cuz many of us are growing edibles, and some of the pesticides like insecticidal soap are okay to put on edibles--fruits and vegetables--and will mention that on the paper. Whereas there are other pesticides that you definitely wouldn’t want to put on your edibles, ‘cuz they can get soaked into the plant, and you wouldn’t want to be eating them when you’re eating the produce from that plant. Karasik: Right. I–I was curious if you feel that very many people are actually aware, for example, of the dangers of glyphosate and how that has pretty much penetrated the entire planet. And I’m wondering in the future, um, you know, what will–what will become of that. Do you try to educate specifically on that or does that bother you that it’s still sold and advertised and is just so deadly? Graham: Well, mostly, we’re not targeting any one pesticide. We want people to open their minds to p–basically trying chemical, physical, and biological approaches before they’d even consider the pesticide. So, we spend most of our time--if we can teach them about biological control, physical control, or cultural control, hopefully they’ll never even have to get to the point where they’re considering a chemical pesticide. Karasik: Right. Right. And when you–you go into schools and tell me a little bit about who–who all is your audience. Obviously, festivals like we had-- Graham: Oh, the Encinitas EcoFest was very nice-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --attended. And, of course, we do have many Master Gardeners helping in school gardens. And of course, when you’re talking to the students and their supervisors--the teachers, the staff, chaperones, and parents--about how to properly grow this product that they’re going to pick from the garden and eat, you definitely want to mention that “okay, we’re not going to put this pesticide on here because we don’t have any pests on this. Isn’t it great?” That kind of thing. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Or “oh, we do have pests. We have snails, sliming up the trunk of our citrus tree.” But instead of using a pesticide, we can teach them, of course, much simpler approach, just pick it off. Karasik: How–huh–who knew! Graham: Or we can use a copper band, because snails don’t actually like to slime over copper. It tastes bad for them. So, if we teach them that, we are hopefully enlightening them so when they actually grow to adulthood and have their own yards and their own gardens, they will not first grab the chemical control approach. Karasik: Oh, uh, that’s really great. Well, let’s talk a little bit about, I think maybe, how your life tha–developed, how you met your husband. Graham: Okay. Karasik: And, um, let’s–let’s hear about that. Graham: Well, I was attending San Diego State University, working on my Bachelor of Science in Zoology degree, and my husband, actually, had graduated from there and he was the teaching aide for the lab class in one of the biology classes. So, that’s how I met him, which is interesting. He was in marine biology which was kind of far away from my backyard biology, but still a biologist. And within a year of completing my degree, we were both working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One, in that the Nuclear Generating Station would shut down, I believe it was like every eight weeks, and they would heat-treat and chemical-treat the water intake system, because they had a large pipe--I think it was, like, twelve-foot diameter or something--and it was sucking in ocean water which was cooling some of the rest of the system at the nuclear power plant. But you’re sucking in water from the ocean, so you’re sucking in barnacles and polychaetas and other biophaline. They settle on the pipe and they grow. And this of course not only reduces the diameter of the water intake flow, but also when you’re treating, you might end up with some of these clogs of biophaline getting sucked in and causing problems. So, every, I think it was eight weeks, but don’t quote me on that, I think they were shutting the plant down to chemically treat and heat treat to kill the biophaline so it didn’t keep growing. Unfortunately, every time they shut the plant down, I believe I was told it was $10,000 more an hour for the energy company to buy energy to supply us than it was making the energy at San Onofre. And people really didn’t relate to this because they’d flip the lights on and the switch would come on because the power company was being responsible and making sure the power was there, even though it was costing more. But people were, of course, ending up having to pay a bit more, because it was more expensive when it was shut down. Now, as a biologist, it seemed pretty obvious that in the cold of the winter, the biophaline wasn’t growing as fast. And why were we shutting down the power plant every eight weeks, year-round, regardless of the time of the year. So, on site, I like to joke, I was basically locked into this research trailer, and I was measuring the biophaline on these research plates, so identifying which quadrat on which plate, and what was the diameter of that barnacle, and this polychaete, and that barnacle. And we measured them, for a year, and we were able to show people the hard scientific evidence that things were growing slower in the cold winter waters. And they didn’t have to shut the plant down as often. So, in the end, after we generated–processed all the data, etc., indeed they considered this quite a successful study. So, they weren’t shutting the plant down every week–eight weeks in the winter, because they realized things weren’t growing as fast, as far as the biophaline. So, everybody in the long run saved money, even the cost of the research, which seemed quite expensive at the time although now that the quanti–the money for that research project doesn’t seem quite as expensive as it was decades ago. But they more than saved, because of the change they could do in running the plant. Karasik: I’m curious, too, because you didn’t have computers back then. Or did you have s-- Graham: It was much slower. Karasik: Yeah. You did have some large, like, big equipment that did do some processing. Graham: I’ve talked about after the year of being locked into the research trailer on site of San Onofre, I was locked for a year (chuckles) into the office to transfer the data. Whereas, if we’d had more sophisticated computers back then, it would have been much faster. Karasik: Right. Now, where was your husband working at the–at San Onofre. Graham: Well, he was the lead investigator, so we were locked into the same trailer. Karasik: Oh, that was nice! (chuckles) Graham: Yes. Karasik: I’m curi-- Graham: There were three of us in the trailer. Karasik: Right. I’m curious, too, because I think it’s important from a–a women’s perspective. Did you feel any sense of a gender discrimination, or were women respected? Graham: No. I was given full respect. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, because it didn’t matter what my gender was. I was still going to be locked into that research trailer. ‘Cuz it’s–it was San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station. So, basically, you went to the main entrance. You were evaluated, basically. They also threw the dice and every three or four or six people would be body-searched, (chuckles) physically patted down-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --going in. And this was before we really thought of terrorist activities much. And then we had to walk directly to the research trailer. And even at lunch we didn’t leave the research trailer. We would bring our lunches in and stay in that trailer until the end of the day, research day. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And we walked right out. But I never felt-- Karasik: And was your pay equal? Graham: Yes. Mm-hmm. Karasik: Oh, that’s--I’m really happy to hear that. Graham: I mean, not necessarily equal to my husband, because he was the lead investigator. Karasik: Correct. Graham: But equal to the other party, who happened to be a guy, in the research trailer doing the same work I was doing. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Well, I’m glad to hear that. And it must have also really been nice to work with your husband and be able to share your knowledge and excitement about the job. That must have been–been really great. Graham: Well, he was a marine biologist, so he was quite into it. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, I wasn’t as into the organisms, because I was more terrestrial biologist, of course. Karasik: Right. Graham: Backyard gardening, etc. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: But I did appreciate the fact that this was a–basically a clean form of energy, compared to burning coal. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And, um-- Karasik: And how do you feel about that now? Not that we have to go into a huge nuclear discussion. Graham: Well, now it’s shut down. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And of course, the–the complication is dealing with the remnants, the radioactive remnants. Karasik: Yes. Graham: And I’d like to see the country go more and more into clean energy--but nuclear was considered clean-- Karasik: Right. Graham: --and weed ourself away from the energy sources that are not considered good for the environment. Karasik: You know, that reminds me. At the EcoFest, there was another booth that passed out quite a bit of information about the San Onofre situation and what we need to know as far as how close some of those storage tanks are to water sources and other things like that. Do you--is that a concern for you at all? Or do you think the public is aware of that? Graham: I think they’re doing a good job dealing with that. I would eventually like to see that material moved. For decades now, they’ve talked about moving it to a--I’ve forgotten the exact location. Karasik: There’s a place in Nevada, I know. Graham: Yeah. I don’t know exactly where in Nevada, but-- Karasik: And then, of course, there’s the NIMBY--Not In My Backyard. Graham: Yes. Karasik: And then the people in Nevada were like “Well, you know, we don’t want it here.” So, I think this is an interesting discussion that in decades to come when people come back and look at this and will see what–what’s been done that’s much more safe, and–and won’t that–won’t that be great, hopefully. Graham: But, I’m sure glad we weren’t burning more-- Karasik: Yes. Graham: --coal at the time to generate that energy-- Karasik: Exactly. Graham: --when we were using. Karasik: And that–and that’s still an issue. So, then, tell me a little bit about either how San Onofre ended. You had a–a–I know you have one son that you had mentioned to me. So, tell me a little bit about your family and tell me about your–your parents and your husband’s parents, and where they came from and, you know, how your lives developed here in North County. Graham: Oh. Well, my husband and I moved to Encinitas over forty years ago. And, because it was relatively close to where the Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility was, where I was staying in the office for a year and processing the data from San Onofre. And my parents still lived in San Diego and my in-laws also lived in San Diego. So, it was smart to live on the Encinitas, south of where we went to work, because that was closer to go and visit them, which we frequently did. And my son—the family joke is “What does the only child of two biologists go into study-wise and stay in science, but get as far away philosophically and geographically from any of the biological studies as possible?” Astrophysics! (chuckles) So he got his–actually, his PhD finally. He started with his bachelor’s at Berkeley, and then wan–went to on get his Ph.D. at a–a--what is that, in Maryland, the institution-- Karasik: In Annapolis, or?-- Graham: People think first of the medical aspect. Karasik: Right. Mm, we’ll come back to that. Graham: He’s going to criticize me for not remembering where he got his PhD. Karasik: Mmm. Graham: Anyway. And he had some research in astrophysics. Karasik: Not John Hopkins? [sic] Graham: John Hopkins, [sic] yes. I’m sorry. Karasik: Johns Hopkins. Okay, great. Graham: I’m going to have to apologize for a minute, not remembering, John Hopkins. [sic] Karasik: That’s alright. Yeah. Graham: He got his PhD at John Hopkins. [sic] Yes. Karasik: Yes. Prestigious. Yes. Graham: Yes. Karasik: So, you had just the one son? Graham: Just the one son. Karasik: Okay. So, tell me a little bit about where your parents came from, um, you know, what generation you are. Did they come directly to California? Do you know? ‘Cuz a lot of us don’t really know where our ancestors came from, other than immediate. How much do you know about both yours and your husband’s? Graham: Okay, my mother was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota. My father was born in Ohio. Now, I believe, possibly, the previous generation had come from Ireland and England and Germany. My in-laws, my mother-in-law was born in, I think, Kansas City, Missouri, which is, you know, Kansas City but it’s in Missouri, but I guess it’s a city that’s-- Karasik: They’re sister cities on the border. Graham: Yes. Right across the river from each other. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And my father-in-law was born in Kirkcaldy, Scotland. Karasik: Mmm! So he immigrated here and-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --with his wife? Do you know? Graham: No. Karasik: Or did he meet her here? Graham: He married her here. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Yes. Karasik: And then I guess they all decided to come out to California? Do you know anything about that journey? Graham: Um, my father-in-law was working, I believe, in the aircraft industry, which was quite active at one time in San Diego. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Manufacturing. And my father was a career Marine, and was stationed out here at Camp Pendleton and-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --some other facilities in southern California. Karasik: There’s a lot of history from Camp Pendleton that will be in our Oral History. Graham: Oh! Good. Karasik: Yeah. So, I guess probably, let’s switch then a little bit. When we look at your life’s work, uh, did–did you want to say more about after you didn’t work for San Onofre anymore, did you get more involved tha--How did you get involved with the Master Gardeners? Let’s go there. Graham: Oh, well, um, we had my son. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And my neighbors warned me that, “If you’re looking for infant childcare, you can’t depend on the local teenagers, if you want to do a routine.” And I wanted to apply to Master Gardeners, which was going to be, I think, seventeen consecutive Tuesdays, and you were expected to attend every one, ideally. And I was wondering, “Okay.” So I asked my mother, “I would like to go through this Master Gardener program which is put on through the University of California Cooperative Extension and become a Master Gardener volunteer, which is dedicated to disseminating information for a successful and environmentally responsible home gardening. But your infant grandson would need care every Tuesday for like seventeen consecutive Tuesdays.” And she said yes. So, I’m very beholden to my mother because-- Karasik: Thank you, mother! Graham: Yes. Karasik: Yes. Graham: Because otherwise I’m not sure where I could have dropped him off for just-- Karasik: Right. And what year would that have been? Graham: He was born in 1982. Karasik: Mmm, so you had-- Graham: Then it was in 1983 that I started the Master Gardener program. Karasik: Oh. Wonderful. Graham: He was just a year old. Karasik: Okay. So, how would you say that work has changed over the years for you, and just tell me more about--I–I–I think, in these interviews we want genera–future generations that come back and watch this and want to learn about the community and how the peoples lives were affected (Carol points to something off camera), what you’d--(Carol looks again off camera and starts to chuckle) what you would want them to know. Graham: Well, Encinitas is a great community to live in. The microclimate is fantastic for people who like to grow a diversity of fruit. Although before you grow any fruit trees, no matter where you’re living, always check that the microclimate is adapted. I frequently, at the Master Gardener exhibit, drag out the Sunset Western Garden book and ask people, “Do you have this?” And if you don’t, you can check it out at any good library and tell them that this book divides the western portion of the United States into twenty-four different micro zones. And I open the map and we can usually identify where they’re living, and at least before they go away, I can tell them, “Oh, you open up Sunset Garden book, and you want to look at what apple varieties grow in your microclimate, look for this number on the microclimate.” Because, unfortunately, as a Master Gardener I’ve had people tell me they have purchased certain fruit trees, certain varieties, and I ask, “Oh, where are you gardening?” And I have to tell them, “That variety is not adapted to your microclimate. It’s not going to thrive.” And I even had a personal situation. Years ago, there was a new variety of--I’ve forgotten whether it was, um, a peach or a nectarine--and it came out--it was supposed to be okay for zone 24, close to the coast in southern California. And the next year, after I’d bought it that year, the next year they said “Sorry. We made a mistake. It’s further inland that it’s adapted to.” So, I dug up the tree, had a fellow Master Gardener who lived further inland and said “Would you like this tree? Because I bought this under the belief that it was going to thrive, and now they’ve changed what they’ve recommended.” Karasik: Right. Graham: So, it is critical to do your research first to be successful in gardening. And we don’t want you wasting water, putting water on varieties of plants that are not adapted to your microclimate, whether it’s fruit trees or just ornamentals. Karasik: That is so important. So-- Graham: Especially with water being super critical now. Karasik: Absolutely, which will be another interesting aspect to look at when future generations, uh—what that’s going to be like. Do you--So, was your husband involved in the Master Gardeners too? Or then did you--you didn’t work, uh, when you had your son. Graham: Right. Karasik: And then what–what did he do? (Carol looks puzzled at the question) What was his work? Did he st-- Graham: My–my husband’s work? Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Well, he continued to work for the Lockheed Marine Biological Research. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, now he wasn’t involved directly in Master Gardeners, but I must say that, uh, there were frequently times when I would have a long day at a Master Gardener exhibit, um, like you experienced at the Encinitas EcoFest recently, and I’d be driving home and very often he had the garage door open for me, ‘cuz I had told him when I went off, I hoped to be back in this time period, and the garage door was opened. I could drive right in. And he was a great cook, so it was wonderful because there was dinner waiting for me all ready and he really spoiled me. (chuckles) So-- Karasik: That’s so wonderful. Graham: --not directly in Master Gardeners but he did support me to a high degree in Master Gardener. Karasik: Yeah. Behind ever--huh--there’s a saying: “Behind every great man is an exhausted woman.” (both she and Carol chuckle) Graham: Right. Karasik: And so I think we could probably-- Graham: (nodding her head) Yes. Karasik: --turn that around. Um, what would you say some–are some of your greatest accompish–accomplishments in your life? Graham: Well, reaching out to so many people at Master Gardeners has made me really feel good in that, as I say, I want people, ideally, to have at least a little bit of a–an edible garden. So when their kids come around and the kids have the opportunity as young gardeners to pick that lovely tomato or bell pepper (gestures as if picking something with her right hand) or maybe it’s a fruit--a peach or nectarine--and eat it and say, “Mmm, really good,” that they directly understand where their food comes from. Karasik: (whispers) Yes. Graham: Because, while some of our food comes from the ocean and the rivers and the lakes, so much of it comes from the good earth. And children who grow up picking the stuff from their garden, I think, are going to realize that and makes a connection and be far less apt to pollute or litter. ‘Cuz they understand why would you want to put pollution or litter on the ground. That’s where your food comes from! Karasik: Exactly. Do you feel like you’ve been successful in educating hopefully thousands of people, because there is a lot of concern now about our food sources? And I myself just recently got a tower garden because I want to be able to grow my own food and it seems like we might be moving more to that. Um, you know, I don’t know if we want to get into it, but we may just want to mention because of the--being a–a–an oral history, you know, monocropping and how all the large corporations have taken over the farming. And so is this--Do you feel like you’ve had a little place in there where you’ve been able to-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --educate. Graham: And also sharing with people the experience. Well, there are some peaches and nectarines I’ve enjoyed purchasing in the market, but none of them have the fantastic flavor that my mother and I used to grow and the Panamint nectarine--that’s the one we really adore. And some people love the Babcock peach, but that’s sweet-on-sweet. And my personal taste buds like the sweet with tang, which the Panamint lives up to. So, you can customize better your favorites by growing them. And of course, the macadamia! Well, the macadamia nut--what is that—$12.99 to $19.99 a pound for the nuts in the market when you buy them. Well, you can grow them yourself. They’re easy to grow, although heads up! (points her left pointer finger into the air). I want to alert everybody. They are really a lot of work to crack, even if you buy the specific macadamia cracker which I bought. But so I try to educate people as to this and-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: ‘Cuz the macadamia tree was my husband’s, um--I don’t know if it was his birthday, or his Christmas present the first year after we moved in. He wanted a macadamia. Karasik: Nice. Well, I’m definitely going to be coming to you, because even me being over in the far east side of North County, that is going to be different. And I’m very excited to learn more about what you think would be best for me to plant, primarily just for me to consume. Graham: Mm-hmm. Good. Karasik: That’s my--And also, did you want to talk a little bit about all the different flowers that are edibles that people don’t know about, different fl–like nasturtians [sic], for example. Graham: I’m really not educated on that aspect. My mother wasn’t into edible flowers, and I haven’t gone into it because I’ve been so enamored of the–the fruits, mais–mostly tree fruits. Karasik: Sure, yeah. Pe-- Graham: And–and thornless blackberries! Karasik: Oh! Graham: Yes, ‘cuz I grew up with the Olallie blackberry which mother had which was delicious but boy does that have thorns! (holds up both her hands, fingers spread wide to emphasize prickliness of thorns) Karasik: Really! Graham: Decades of research and now we have thornless varieties out there. Karasik: Oh, I didn’t know that! Graham: So, yes. Triple crown. Karasik: It’ll–it’ll be really interesting for botanists, for example, who might be–get to hear these–this interview, in particular, and see how things have changed. I mean, there is certainly the concern that California may become a desert. And we do definitely have water issues right now. Does that, uh, take up some of your time of concern? Graham: It is concerning. However, I tell people, “Well, um, hopefully when we get off this third year of really severe drought here in San Diego County and people actually start to feel they can put plants in the ground again, well, instead of putting ornamentals, why not put some edibles? Wouldn’t that be a better use of the water?” And as I said you can also customize, so you can put your–your edible in the variety that you couldn’t even find in the market. Karasik: Right. Like sunchokes, Jerusalem artichokes. Those are hard to find, and very nutritious-- Graham: Yeah. Karasik: --for example. Well, we could certainly talk about gardening (both Graham and Karasik chuckle). And that’s–and that was a lot of my reason for wanting to interview you, because I think this will be very interesting to, um, our descendants. I guess, uh, if there’s anymore that you’d like to tell about what you–what like what changes you would like to see for future generations, and if you had a chance to talk to some of these future generations, not just around Master Gardening but just about life in general and what you’ve learned over the years, what–what you think is most important that, uh-- Graham: Well, continuing on some of the issues that we mentioned--less lawn, and more drought tolerant or edibles. Um, now there are some people who have a legitimate desire to have a lawn. They have young kids who do want to play on it. But that doesn’t mean they have to have a lawn both front and the back. And, um, after a certain length of time, maybe they want to take the lawn out because their kids are no longer playing on it-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And cracking open the reference books, even good old Sunset Western Garden book. And it has a plant finder section. And one of the things that it addresses there are low water use plants. Karasik: Drought tolerant. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Yes. Graham: As well as delving through the various edibles-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: --making sure you select the right variety for your microclimate, so you’re successful and don’t waste water on a variety that was doomed from the start. Karasik: Yeah. Hmm, well, we’ve just covered that so well. I think, more than--it sounds like you’ve had a wonderful life and, of course, everything’s not perfect. There is a question here. What are your regrets? Or what would you do over if you could. Did you want to speak to that by chance? Or-- Graham: Well, I regret my husband passed away. My husband died. Karasik: Yes. If you want to-- Graham: And I didn’t appreciate enough all the great cooking he used to do. Um, so now I’m spending a whole lot more time from going to the grocery store and buying the food and prepping the food and thinking ahead, “Okay, I have this many drumsticks. Am I going to eat chicken this many nights, or am I going to eat some of this, and what’s in the freezer, and how much time it takes.” ‘Cuz I’ve a terribly neglected yard. But I am enjoying the social aspect of going out for Master Gardener exhibits. Karasik: Yes. Graham: Especially since my husband is gone now. Karasik: Right. Graham: So-- Karasik: And it hasn’t been that long, so--I know that, um, my condolences and I know how that is. We–we all have to accept that part of life. And-- Graham: Mm-hmm. I’m grateful that he did have a good quality of life up until the very end. Karasik: Yes. And I think, too, that again that’s a lot why this oral history project is so important. Because we don’t realize what interesting lives people have had. And it doesn’t get documented. So, we certainly have more time. Um, here’s a couple of questions here around community that might–might be interesting. It says “In what w–ways is your neighborhood special or has it been unique or what are some of the favorite places in your community, and how has–how has this area changed since you moved here? And that’s-- Graham: Yeah. Karasik: --a big one. Graham: When my husband and I first moved here, we didn’t even buy groceries in Encinitas because there were very few grocery stores, you know. This was over forty-five years ago. And there was a grocery store we’d go right past when we were leaving that place of work. So, it made more sense to stop there, but it wasn’t in Encinitas. And of course, I like to spend my consumer dollars in my own community. And now we have over ten grocery stores!! I mean, in an hour--excuse me, in a mile and a half, I can walk to four different grocery stores in my community. And frequently I am walking because it’s checking off my exercise for the day and checking off my eco-point for the day, ‘cuz I’m not driving my vehicle, um, and I enjoy it! And Encinitas allows me to do this because of all the grocery stores they have, which forty-five years ago-- Karasik: And they’re some of the finest–some of the finest grocery stores. Graham: Nice diversity. Karasik: Not the least expensive, by any means, but definitely some of the highest quality and the largest diversity of what is offered. Graham: Yes. And we have farmer’s markets. Karasik: We do. Graham: Two of them in Encinitas. Karasik: Yeah. Let’s talk–let’s talk a little bit about those. Do you get to know any of those farmers? Or-- Graham: I actually--way back when, was it Harry Stone? Don’t quote me--who founded the first farmer’s market in San Diego County up in Vista. He was a member of the California Rare Fruit Growers. And I’ve been an avid member of the California Rare Fruit Growers for decades. And the idea took off and it was great. Karasik: You know, another interview that I did, I learned that the–there is a big difference, obviously, between an egg farm, a truck farm, and a—are you familiar with that? So, the truck farm is the vegetables that you would then truck to the market. And then obviously the egg farm and the chickens, because Cal State San Marcos that was a huge egg farm. And actually, on the way over here you were telling me there was a wonderful nursery here that has now been-- Graham: Sunshine Gardens Nursery is now closed, and it was a very nice nursery for I don’t know how many decades here. Karasik: Mm-hmm. And now it’s–it’s–they’re making room for housing because we need that, and–and I think all the more reason. We have community gardens here. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Did you want to talk a little bit about that? Graham: I think it’s wonderful we have a community garden, quite close to the Heritage Museum here in Encinitas. And there are people who live in condominiums or apartments and they don’t have a yard to put a garden. So, community garden gives them wonderful opportunity. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, now, I do want to encourage people, even if they don’t have a yard, to consider possibly growing—we used to call it pot culture, but now that gives you the wrong impression--container gardening! (laughs) Karasik: Right. Graham: Yes. For instance, you can grow a nice return of blackberries, pick the thornless varieties in a fifteen-gallon pot, fifteen-gallon black plastic pot. Or you can put a more decorative pot if you’d like and make it more decorative, and you can put it on your balcony perhaps on your condominium or apartment. Mind that you give it full sun, etc. But, even without having a yard, there are some edibles you can grow if you research things carefully. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Have you found that people in your neighborhood come to you and ask you for your advice? Or how do you--(both she and Graham chuckle) I think I’m going to be asking you for some advice, for sure. Graham: Well, this was an interesting first four months in the year 2022. I captured six gophers. Now only one of them in my yard. I’m grateful for it was only one in my yard. But the other five were in three different neighbors’ yards. And I was labeled the gopher getter. I’ve captured gophers in other yards previous years too, but this was an especially active first four months of the year, for some reason. Karasik: Do you think—and I might even have heard somewhere--do you think that the drought had a lot to do with that, that they might even be seeking water or food, or are–are they--maybe they’ve increased their offspring. Do we know why? Graham: I don’t think so. I didn’t hear anything connecting those variables. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: It was just a-- Karasik: And then where do you take ‘em? When you catch them. Graham: Well, there are no have-a-heart traps for gophers. You realize this is–(makes a gesture with her right hand of cutting off her head and lets out a scraping sound) these are kill traps. Karasik: Oh. Graham: Because the gopher is not a wanted critter to release in a wild area. No. So, the traps you’d use are kill traps for gophers. Karasik: Hmm. Unfortunate, but necessary. Graham: Mm-hmm. Because remember if you don’t deal with it early, the pest note that University of California Cooperative Extension puts out on gophers, I believe it says, “In irrigated areas, like our gardens, gophers can have up to three litters a year.” And I believe they said the number in the litter can vary from like five to seven. So, that’s a pretty horrific number of offspring they could produce in a year, if you don’t deal with them quickly. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And I think it was this year I was given the gopher getter title, because the one party I trapped a gopher successfully was just put the trap in one day and the next day I had it. And she happened to comment to her neighbor across the street, and he had a gopher, so he contacted me. And there were these three neighbors fairly close to each other on an adjacent street, that-- Karasik: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Graham: And the first four months of the year that--bing–bing–bing. Karasik: Hmm. Um, going back to--you’ve mentioned a couple of times. So it’s U.C. California San Diego, because when I tried to contact you, there is a division there. Do you want to tell us a little bit how that’s set up, ‘cuz I know you’re kind of under their umbrella. And-- Graham: Well, the Master Gardener program is a volunteer branch of the University of California Cooperative Extension. It’s not just one university, ‘cuz sometimes people have thought, “Oh, you’re office is at U.C.S.D.” No, no, it’s actually in the County Operations Center in Corina Mesa. Karasik: Mmm. Graham: And we have information that is generated from all of these universities throughout the state. Now some of it applies directly to where we’re here in the San Diego. Another applies to more northern California areas. But the information clearly tells you that. And of course, our tax money is paying for some of this research, because we have a very productive agricultural economy in California. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And the research is directed toward the agricultural, commercial aspect. But there are spinoff bits of information that are generated that directly help the home gardener as well. So we’re out there. As a matter of fact, if I can bend your ear, the story about the creation of the Master Gardener program was apparently it started in Washington state. And this good-hearted cooperative extension agent was getting a lot of calls, people having questions on their home garden situation. But he was being paid to advise and help out the commercial growers and farmers. And he didn’t want to be rude and not help them, but he had his plate full helping the commercial farmers. So he got the brilliant idea. I’ll train a crew of volunteers and when I get a home garden question I will pass the question on to them. And that’s what I was told started the Master Gardener program. And now I’ve been told that we actually have Master Gardeners in all fifty states. Karasik: Oh, wow, good. Graham: So-- Karasik: Oh, that’s great. Well, um, we’ve certainly had an interesting conversation here and if there’s anything else that you would like to tell. We’re so appreciative of the work that you’ve done and I can see where that’s been a really big part of your life and I’ve–I’m assuming very rewarding-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --and it’s enabled you to make a lot of friends and-- Graham: And I’d like to say also I’m very pleased to volunteer for the Solana Center for Environmental Innovation. Karasik: Oh, that’s such a great place. Graham: Right here in Encinitas. Karasik: Let’s talk about that just for a little bit, because again in the future I think that will be something that will still be here. Graham: Yes, of course. Karasik: And they do so many things there. Let’s talk about that a little bit. Graham: Well, they were at the Encinitas EcoFest, right next to my Master Gardener exhibit. And they teach many aspects and as far as gardening, composting, very important. And instead of having that truck rumble through your neighborhood once a week and pick up the green waste in the bin, if more of us could compost on site, it would help the environment. Also, of course, if you’ve ever gone to the nursery and priced bags of potting soil and compost, it’s not inexpensive if you consider the number of bags you could use as an avid gardener for the year. Karasik: And I don’t know if we always know where all that soil came from. Graham: Well, it is nice to have control of it from your own garden and know what went into it exactly. Karasik: Exactly. Graham: And while it does take a little bit of room and it does take some time, it also is a nice excuse to get out into the fresh air in the garden. Karasik: What do you recommend, because I know a lot of people are afraid to compost because they think it will bring critters? Graham: Oh, okay. When you are putting certain elements in the compost pile that you think might accidentally bring critters like the egg shell, or the citrus peel or the avocado pits or something, it is highly recommended that you bury that in the compost pile with a layer at least four inches maybe even six inches of yard trimmings above it. That will basically absorb any odors and of course it’s not recommended that you put bones in the compost pile, because that would tend to attract critters. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Now, will–will worms come into that? Or is a worm compost kind of a separate approach to composting? Graham: Well there is vermicompost in a worm bin. Karasik: Right. Graham: Worms will come into your compost pile. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And you give them things to eat. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: The fruit waste, like the peels and pits, etc. As well as the decomposing leaves and twigs, etc. Karasik: Leftover food, and lettu—greens, things like that. Graham: Vegetables and fruits leftover. Karasik: Yeah. Yeah. Graham: Not meat. Of course. Karasik: Right, right. Graham: Not meat or bugs. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: And of course, you’ve moistened the environment in the compost pile to help it decompose and they–worms breathe through their skin and they need a moist–yep, they actually need a moist skin to survive. So, they are very happy to find this moist environment which offers them perfect lodging and food buffet, moisture, yes. Karasik: Just for my own curiosity. I’ve always been fascinated by earthworms and the fact that you’ve–that you’ve–they’re w–w–one of the few living beings where you can cut off their head and they’ll grow another one. Is that correct? Graham: No. that’s not-- Karasik: They’ll grow, maybe not their head, but the back end or-- Graham: No. Karasik: That’s not true? Graham: Um, too many people--I mean, depending on the amount you cut off at the tail end, they might survive. Karasik: Not intentionally, obviously. Graham: Yeah. But if you accidentally cut one in two, some people have this misconception that you’ll get two worms. No. It’ll die. Karasik: Aw. I had that misconception. Graham: Yeah. That’s a popular-- Karasik: And they are so critical. Graham: Yes. Karasik: They are so critical. But probably one of the most or when we look at–at soil. Are you familiar with soil regeneration and some of the ways that they’re trying now to--because so much of our soil has been depleted? Do you get involved in that, or are you just-- Graham: Well, with the compost pile, you’re helping replenish. Karasik: mm-hmm. Graham: And when you think about it, okay. The nutrients it takes for let’s say your peach tree to make peaches, it has to make leaves. Well, some of that is from the very leaves that came, matured, off the tree. So, you’re recycling it in the compost pile and putting it back underneath the tree when you’re putting some compost into the soil under your peach tree. Karasik: Right. Wonderful. That’s–that’s a good point as well. Graham: Mm-hmm. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: So you’re just basically recycling the nutrients as opposed to chucking them into the trash and hauling them off to the land fill. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: And not even chucking them into the green bin and having them hauled off. But, at least when it goes to the green facility at Miramar, it gets repurposed. But it’s more. Karasik: Have you ever visited that place? Graham: Oh yes! It was fantastic. This was decades ago. Karasik: That would be a wonderful tour. Graham: There was a field trip--I don’t remember if it was Master Gardeners or the Encin--the Solana Center sponsored the field trip decades ago. It was so much fun! And wow, it was interesting. Karasik: I’d like to do that. I’d also like to visit one of these desalination plants and see how they’re doing that. Graham: Oh, yes. Karasik: Because that seems to be the future. Now, that’s another point. Graham: I was able to take a tour of that too. That was Solana Center that hosted that decades ago. Karasik: Oh, did they? Graham: From up the street at the Carlsbad Desalinization Plant. Karasik: Yes! I might ask them if they know how somebody can do that now. One other thing I wanted to ask about the Solana Center. I had seen something where you can get some buckets and take it home, and so you can kind of get compost from them, or maybe a starter? How does that work? Graham: Um, you pay a fee. I—don’t quote me because I’m not sure exactly how much it is. You get a bucket to take home, and you put your fruit and vegetable waste in it, and also bones and—in other words, if you’re not composting you put these materials in there. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And it has some bokashi in it, which ferments it. Karasik: Is bokashi an organism that breaks it down? Graham: It’s a-- Karasik: What is that? Graham: --it’s more like a chemical-- Karasik: Oh, okay. Graham: --that pickles it. I think it’s what they compare it to. Karasik: Okay. Graham: And you can take that back, and then you can get some finished compost as well. So-- Karasik: Oh, that’s how-- Graham: --but you’ll–you’ll want to call the Solana Center and ask for the details. Karasik: Right. Yes. I’ve been over there and they were very supportive to us-- Graham: Yes. Karasik: --for the EcoFest as well. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Well, I just want to thank you for your time. And this has been a really interesting and educational interview. And you have definitely had a wonderful life, and I sense the fact that you will be around for quite a while and helping a whole lot more people. And I’m so happy to know you and really appreciate your time, and what you’re going to offer for future generations. Graham: Well, thanks for this opportunity to reach out to people. Karasik: Oh, absolutely. You’re so welcome. So again we’re--actually, I don’t know if I mentioned this. We’re at the San Dieguito Heritage Museum which is here in Encinitas and I really wish that people could see that, although they’ll have the opportunity to do that, you know, locally. But the history here at this particular museum is incredible, as well. So, would encourage people to come out if they happen to listen to this and we thank them also for the opportunity to use their equipment, and hope that this will be a good video. So, thank you very much. Graham: You’re very welcome. Karasik: And we will finish here. GLOSSARY Babcock peach (pg. 15) Biophaline (pg. 7, 8) California Rare Fruit Growers (pg. 18-19) Carlsbad Desalinization Plant (pg. 24) County Operations Center [Corina Mesa] (pg. 20) EcoFest (pg.1, 6, 10, 14, 21, 25) Glyphosate (pg.6) Heritage Museum (pg. 19) Integrated Pest Management (pg.3, 4) Johns Hopkins University (pg. 11) Kirkcaldy, Scotland (pg. 12) Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility (pg. 10, 14) Master Gardener(s) (pg. 1-4, 6, 12-15, 17, 20-21, 24) Panamint nectarine (pg. 15) Polychaete (pg. 7, 8) San Dieguito Heritage Museum (pg. 25) San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station [Plant One] (pg. 7, 8, 10, 12) Solana Center for Environmental Innovation (pg. 21, 24-25) Stone, Harry (pg. 18) Sunset Western Garden book (pg. 13, 17) Sunshine Gardens Nursery (pg. 19) Truck farm (pg. 19) University of California Cooperative Extension (pg. 12, 20, 21) Vermicompost (pg. 22) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GrahamCarol_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-04_access.xml GrahamCarol_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-04_access.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Graham, Carol. Interview November 4, 2022. Description An account of the resource Carol Graham is a Master Garderner. She has a Bachelor's degree in Zoology and began her career working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One. After its closure, she enrolled to become a Master Gardner volunteer that was sponsered through the University of California Cooperative Extension program. The Master Gardner program is dedicated to distributing information for an environmentally-responsible home and garden. She has been a Master Gardner since 1983 and participates in various events such as EcoFest. She is very passionate about the study of insects, pest management, composting, and protecting the environment from pesticides. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-028 Subject The topic of the resource Crops -- Diseases and pests -- Biological control Gardening -- California -- San Diego County Master gardeners -- California -- San Diego County Organic farming San Diego State University San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station (Calif.) University of California (System). Cooperative Extension Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-04 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Carol Graham Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Suzy Karasik Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Encinitas (Calif.) San Diego North County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Carol Graham Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2caac1a8cfc3ca29c2de994f0935e8bb.pdf 86bdb8529b42a059d7ccb366fdf0c96c PDF Text Text April 26, 2023 Transcript Suzy Karasik: Good morning. My name is Suzy Karasik. Today is November 4th and I am interviewing Carol Graham, Master Gardener, native Californian, and so much that we will learn here in part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Carol, thank you for joining me today. (coughs) Carol Graham: (nods) My pleasure. Karasik: And, um, I wanted to just say briefly how I met Carol. I’m part of the EcoFest that we had here in Encinitas a couple of weeks ago. It’s an annual event that we do to educate people to everything involved with the ecology and the environment here in the county. And Carol had an incredible display (Carol gestures with her arms to display the posterboards on a table behind her) with the Master Gardeners, which we’ve been able to set up here and hopefully make it a little bit more readable. (Carol holds up a model of a fly, with a paper flyer attached and hanging below it) And Carol, let’s just start here. As we had discussed, let’s talk a little bit about where you born and your childhood and if any of that happened to prepare you for what was to come in your most interesting life and, um, how you’ve identified yourself over the years and your relationship with the county. So, you can start there. Graham: Well, I was born in North Claremont, the city of San Diego. And my mother was a very avid fruit tree gardener. And I really benefited because when my husband and I moved up here to Encinitas over forty years ago, it’s a similar microclimate to the one I grew up in, which means the fruit trees that I enjoyed—gardening at my mother’s knees, and fell in love with certain varieties of nectarines and other delicious fruits, loquats—I could grow those same varieties here which was nice. Karasik: Yes. Graham: And it was a very pleasant community to grow up in. Karasik: If I may ask, if you don’t mind, what year were you born, or— Graham: Oh. (chuckles) 1952. Karasik: Okay. Graham: Yes. So, I just recently celebrated—not that many months ago—my 70th birthday. Karasik: Yes! So, tell us a little bit about your school and what it was like here in the North County—well, you were actually down in San Diego— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —as you were growing up. Graham: I went to elementary school and junior high in the city of San Diego. 1 �Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, my father was a career Marine. So, we had three years in Virginia, and I graduated from high school in Virginia. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And then we came back to San Diego because the house had been rented—not sold. So, we were able to come back to the same garden, the same microclimate, which was great for the garden— Karasik: Yes. Graham: —the same fruit trees waiting for us— Karasik: Yes. Graham: —the ones that we had planted earlier. So, it was a very pleasant experience, very supportive of the interests that I continue to enjoy today. Karasik: So–so you graduated from high school in–in–out east, and— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —then you came back out here. What were your–What was your initial work, and— Graham: Well, I went to S.D.S.U. and earned a bachelor’s degree in Zoology— Karasik: Mmm. Graham: —because animals have always fascinated me, and that’s not just the animals many people first think of are the gigantic giraffe and interesting hippopotamus, and rhinoceros. But I’m also fascinated by what some people will refer to as the–the bugs (holds up a stuffed toy puppet ladybug, and chuckles). So, um— Karasik: Let’s talk about the bugs a little bit. Graham: Yeah. Well, I am very pleased to educate people on—well, most people recognize this as one of their favorite bugs in the whole garden, the lady beetle. (has now put on the puppet on her right hand and is holding it up in front of her) People call it the ladybug, but it’s more scientific to call it the lady beetle. Because actually the word “bug” has a derogatory reference. It comes from old English, meaning something unpleasant (makes a face, and gestures with her left hand to indicate something scattering away). So, lady beetle is the more appropriate, better name. And it’s interesting in that its larval stage looks creepy! (holds up another stuffed animal, which appears to be a larval stage representation of the lady beetle). So— Karasik: I did not know that! Graham: —the larval stage, as I tell people, “Yes, it looks like a creepy, six-legged, micro alligator.” So, it’s very important that we reach out to the public, as Master Gardeners, and inform people “when you see this in the garden, don’t assume it’s something bad.” (she shakes 2 �the larval-stage, stuffed animal) For instance, (turns to her right and looks at the posterboard behind her, first to one with the header “IPM” then points to the board with the header “Identify”) one of the first steps of Integrated Pest Manager—which is what I.P.M. stands for— is identify friend or foe. Because if you assume this is bad (holds up the larval stage stuffed toy) and as many people have told me as they come by our Master Gardener exhibit, they had no idea it was a lady beetle larva. They thought it was something bad ‘cuz it looks creepy! You know what they had told me they had done? They sprayed it with pesticide, or they squished it, or they taught their kids to be afraid of it, which was so sad. Especially since this (shakes the larval stage toy) can not do any good if you squish it! (laughs) Um, but I admit, yes, it looks creepy. And we also educate people that not all lady beetles look like this. (Shakes her right hand which has the mature lady beetle puppet on it) Not all of them are red. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: So, we have an assortment of photos that show different colors for the different species ‘cuz it–it’s great to benefit not from just one species of lady beetle (again shakes her puppeted right hand) but several. (Turns to put both of those stuffed toys down on the bench next to her, then holds up a stuffed toy that looks like a mosquito, which has a paper flyer hanging off of it.). And on the dark side, we also need to educate people about this character. Karasik: Ugh. Graham: Now, a Master Gardener friend of mine made both this educational model (again holds up the larval stage toy) and this (holds up mosquito toy). And she made them too pretty, in a way, because this looks, actually, quite attractive. And it is the creepy mosquito! And I think we’ve all been bitten by mosquitoes. And some people don’t realize but the mosquito actually has been given the horrific title of the most deadly animal we share the planet with, because the part it plays vectoring malaria, dengue, yellow fever. Even West Nile virus killed some of our residents here in San Diego County. It was about fifteen, seventeen years ago. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, it’s true that apparently everyone who died of West Nile virus in our county had pre-existing medical conditions or they would have survived. But it’s also true some of those people could be alive today if they hadn’t been bitten by infected mosquitoes. But unfortunately, 3the mosquito larvae are not easily identifiable for people who haven’t been introduced to them. And many of our neighbors are growing mosquito larvae in their bird baths and other watercontaining items, children’s toys, and buckets in the garden. Stagnant water is where the mother mosquito likes to lay her eggs. In a few days, those eggs hatch out to larvae. And when I have displayed larvae—‘cuz sometimes I’ll deliberately grow them to have them on exhibit, and I take the lid off the jar only after I make sure they’re just in the larval stage. No adults to fly out and bite people. And I will ask people as they come to the exhibit, “Do you know what this is?” and over half the adults have no idea it’s mosquito larvae, which is very disturbing, because they’re growing them possibly in their gardens. And when they see them, they’re not motivated to dump it out, ‘cuz they don’t know what it is. 3 �Karasik: This is so important, and so, uh, (Graham puts down the mosquito toy) so–so much of it is actually unknown to the public. I’m curious, if you wanted to just kind of go through these four stages, if you will. (Carol stands up and turns toward posterboards) And then we’ll talk more about how you even became to be a Master Gardener. But I don’t want to— Graham: Okay. Karasik: —uh, (Carol sits back down again) forget to look at a little bit more of your early days— Granham: Okay. Karasik: —so we’ll come back. Graham: (she turns toward the board that reads “IPM.”) Well, the first stage in Integrated Pest Management, as I said, is Identify—(points to the posterboard reading “Identify”) friends, and admittedly some of these friends do look creepy—(points to photographs under the subheading “Friends” on that posterboard) Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —and foes. (points to, and circles with her right-hand finger, various photographs under the subheading “Foes”). And here, kind of the star of the show, (circles the middle of the board, which has a collage of photos) indeed, we recognize the adult lady beetle (points to the photo of the lady beetle). I hardly ever see the eggs (points to a photo of lady beetle eggs) and I have my head in the garden a lot, so I’m surprised I don’t see them more often. But, at certain times of the year, I’ll see the larval stage, (points to a photo of a larval lady beetle) and as I said, I’ll admit it looks creepy like a six-legged micro alligator. And the pupal stage (points to a photo of a pupa of a lady beetle). And if, ideally, people would get this in high school or junior high school biology, it would be so helpful for the public health of our communities. And then of course you move on (stands up and points to the posterboard with the subheading “Understand”) to understand relationships, like the sooty mold, which is this black powdery (points to a photo of leaves with black mold on it) material you frequently find on some infected leaves (reads the text above the photos, indicating it with her left hand)—“grows on the honeydew, produced by sucking insects.” So, unfortunately, it’s not uncommon to have aphids or mealybugs or whiteflies or scale. And what goes in one end to their body as food—‘cuz they puncture the tender leaves and they’re sucking the sap—comes out the other end of their body, and instead of calling it like “aphid poop” it's called “honeydew.” Karasik: (chuckles) Graham: And this honeydew is a rich source of food for the growth, unfortunately, of ants which will protect these bad guys and sooty mold to grow. And here (points to a photo of ants) we see the ants will actually chase away the good guys who would eat some of these bad guys. But the ants are kind of protecting the bad guys because they’re eating— Karasik: That’s their sustenance. 4 �Graham: —the honeydew. Yeah. It’s kind of like we— Karasik: Yeah. Graham: —protect our dairy cattle from predators who might eat them, because we want to milk them and benefit from them. Karasik: Right, right. Graham: (then points to the text toward the bottom with her left hand) And understanding leads to multiple control approaches—biological, cultural, chemical, physical. There’s quite a diversity there. (She then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Assess,” points to the text with her left hand, and reads) And assess. Butterflies and moths are pollinators. Butterfly and moth larvae are consumers. Well, some bugs, I say they’re like children. They don’t always behave. They do some good and some bad (chuckles). And you have to kind of evaluate how it interacts in your garden. (points directly to the camera and whispers “The screen went dark. Is that a problem? Appears to wait for answer, and then says “okay,” and continues) You have to assess how they interact (using her left hand, she circles above a diagram showing the cycle of interaction of insects) in your garden, whether the bit of bad they do is less than the good they do. So, you can label them a good or a bad. Um, and of course, the green fruit beetle (points to the bottom of the board, to a photo of a beetle). Well, some people label it a pest, because it will attack, damage overripe soft fruits—peach, nectarines, plums, apricot—‘cuz it’s drawn to the fragrance. But, the grub, which admittedly looks creepy, is a fantastic decomposer. And it’s in all our compost piles, helping break things down. And it has a strict diet of eating rotting organic matter only. Although, it does look similar to the June Beetle grubs which eat live plant roots and tubers and corms. So, I try and teach people how to tell the difference— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: (then moves toward the posterboard with the subheading “Control” and points to a pyramid illustration) —and then the control aspects, from cultural which is considered benign approach; mechanical and physical—I mean, just physically pulling (with her left hand, mimics pulling off the insects from the photos on the “Assess” posterboard) the snails off your plants; biological—reloos–reducing–releasing—excuse me—lady beetles, or recognizing the lady beetle larvae that you do have so you don’t accidentally spray it with pesticide; to chemical (points to the top of the pyramid on “Control” posterboard). And all these different approaches are out there (waves her left hand above the pyramid) and they should be assessed and see how they fit into your garden. So, I think that (waves her left hand in front of all four posterboards, indicating totality) kind of reviews them all. Karasik: Pretty much covers that. Before we go back to your childhood, I’m going to pause here just for a minute (Graham sits back down and nods) Karasik: Okay, Carol. I think probably one of the most important aspects of this beautiful background that you chose to bring is the chemical aspect of the pest management. (Carol points to the pyramid on the “Control” posterboard) So, let’s talk a little bit about that and the toxicity because I’m thinking that our descendants that may be watching this oral history in the years to 5 �come will know a whole lot–a lot more about what would have been a more wise pest management than we do now. Graham: (again pointing at the posterboard) Well, the chemical aspect is considered the most toxic, and we want you to try the cultural, physical, and biological approaches first. And under the chemical (reads the text on the posterboard, which I’ve designated in quotations) “Use only in combination with the other controls.” It’s not like you have to use only these or only the chemical. You can use them together. And hopefully you won’t even have to go to the chemicals. Hopefully, you can control it by the other approaches. “Use a pest–pest specific non-broad-spectrum pesticide.” In other words, if you do feel you have to use a chemical pesticide, don’t spray the whole garden, and make sure that before you buy any pesticide you carefully read the container and that it mentions the specific pest you’re trying to address, ‘cuz there are pesticides out there that would be totally wasted if you bought this pesticide and it didn’t apply to this pest that you were trying to control. Karasik: Right. Graham: And yet you introduce something toxic into the environment unnecessarily—very undesirable, of course. “Select the least toxic pesticide to reduce potential risks. Always read and follow directions on the pesticide label. It’s the law.” And as I tell people, well, the first thing you read before you buy any pesticide is will it address your target, you also want to make sure is it okay to put on the plant you want to put it on, ‘cuz many of us are growing edibles, and some of the pesticides like insecticidal soap are okay to put on edibles—fruits and vegetables—and will mention that on the paper. Whereas there are other pesticides that you definitely wouldn’t want to put on your edibles, ‘cuz they can get soaked into the plant, and you wouldn’t want to be eating them when you’re eating the produce from that plant. Karasik: Right. I–I was curious if you feel that very many people are actually aware, for example, of the dangers of glyphosate and how that has pretty much penetrated the entire planet. And I’m wondering in the future, um, you know, what will–what will become of that. Do you try to educate specifically on that or does that bother you that it’s still sold and advertised and is just so deadly? Graham: Well, mostly, we’re not targeting any one pesticide. We want people to open their minds to p–basically trying chemical, physical, and biological approaches before they’d even consider the pesticide. So, we spend most of our time—if we can teach them about biological control, physical control, or cultural control, hopefully they’ll never even have to get to the point where they’re considering a chemical pesticide. Karasik: Right. Right. And when you–you go into schools and tell me a little bit about who–who all is your audience. Obviously, festivals like we had— Graham: Oh, the Encinitas EcoFest was very nice— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —attended. And, of course, we do have many Master Gardeners helping in school gardens. And of course, when you’re talking to the students and their supervisors—the teachers, 6 �the staff, chaperones, and parents—about how to properly grow this product that they’re going to pick from the garden and eat, you definitely want to mention that “okay, we’re not going to put this pesticide on here because we don’t have any pests on this. Isn’t it great?” That kind of thing. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Or “oh, we do have pests. We have snails, sliming up the trunk of our citrus tree.” But instead of using a pesticide, we can teach them, of course, much simpler approach, just pick it off. Karasik: How–huh–who knew! Graham: Or we can use a copper band, because snails don’t actually like to slime over copper. It tastes bad for them. So, if we teach them that, we are hopefully enlightening them so when they actually grow to adulthood and have their own yards and their own gardens, they will not first grab the chemical control approach. Karasik: Oh, uh, that’s really great. Well, let’s talk a little bit about, I think maybe, how your life tha–developed, how you met your husband. Graham: Okay. Karasik: And, um, let’s–let’s hear about that. Graham: Well, I was attending San Diego State University, working on my Bachelor of Science in Zoology degree, and my husband, actually, had graduated from there and he was the teaching aide for the lab class in one of the biology classes. So, that’s how I met him, which is interesting. He was in marine biology which was kind of far away from my backyard biology, but still a biologist. And within a year of completing my degree, we were both working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One, in that the Nuclear Generating Station would shut down, I believe it was like every eight weeks, and they would heat-treat and chemical-treat the water intake system, because they had a large pipe—I think it was, like, twelve-foot diameter or something—and it was sucking in ocean water which was cooling some of the rest of the system at the nuclear power plant. But you’re sucking in water from the ocean, so you’re sucking in barnacles and polychaetas and other biophaline. They settle on the pipe and they grow. And this of course not only reduces the diameter of the water intake flow, but also when you’re treating, you might end up with some of these clogs of biophaline getting sucked in and causing problems. So, every, I think it was eight weeks, but don’t quote me on that, I think they were shutting the plant down to chemically treat and heat treat to kill the biophaline so it didn’t keep growing. Unfortunately, every time they shut the plant down, I believe I was told it was $10,000 more an hour for the energy company to buy energy to supply us than it was making the energy at San Onofre. And people really didn’t relate to this because they’d flip the lights on and the switch would come on because the power company was being responsible and making sure the power was there, even though it was costing more. But people were, of course, ending up having to pay a bit more, because it was more expensive when it was shut down. Now, as a biologist, it seemed pretty obvious that in the cold of the winter, the biophaline wasn’t growing as fast. And why were we shutting down the power plant every eight weeks, year-round, regardless of the time of the year. So, on site, I like to joke, I was basically locked into this research trailer, and I was measuring 7 �the biophaline on these research plates, so identifying which quadrat on which plate, and what was the diameter of that barnacle, and this polychaete, and that barnacle. And we measured them, for a year, and we were able to show people the hard scientific evidence that things were growing slower in the cold winter waters. And they didn’t have to shut the plant down as often. So, in the end, after we generated–processed all the data, etc., indeed they considered this quite a successful study. So, they weren’t shutting the plant down every week–eight weeks in the winter, because they realized things weren’t growing as fast, as far as the biophaline. So, everybody in the long run saved money, even the cost of the research, which seemed quite expensive at the time although now that the quanti–the money for that research project doesn’t seem quite as expensive as it was decades ago. But they more than saved, because of the change they could do in running the plant. Karasik: I’m curious, too, because you didn’t have computers back then. Or did you have s— Graham: It was much slower. Karasik: Yeah. You did have some large, like, big equipment that did do some processing. Graham: I’ve talked about after the year of being locked into the research trailer on site of San Onofre, I was locked for a year (chuckles) into the office to transfer the data. Whereas, if we’d had more sophisticated computers back then, it would have been much faster. Karasik: Right. Now, where was your husband working at the–at San Onofre. Graham: Well, he was the lead investigator, so we were locked into the same trailer. Karasik: Oh, that was nice! (chuckles) Graham: Yes. Karasik: I’m curi— Graham: There were three of us in the trailer. Karasik: Right. I’m curious, too, because I think it’s important from a–a women’s perspective. Did you feel any sense of a gender discrimination, or were women respected? Graham: No. I was given full respect. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, because it didn’t matter what my gender was. I was still going to be locked into that research trailer. ‘Cuz it’s–it was San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station. So, basically, you went to the main entrance. You were evaluated, basically. They also threw the dice and every three or four or six people would be body-searched, (chuckles) physically patted down— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —going in. And this was before we really thought of terrorist activities much. And then we had to walk directly to the research trailer. And even at lunch we didn’t leave the research 8 �trailer. We would bring our lunches in and stay in that trailer until the end of the day, research day. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And we walked right out. But I never felt— Karasik: And was your pay equal? Graham: Yes. Mm-hmm. Karasik: Oh, that’s—I’m really happy to hear that. Graham: I mean, not necessarily equal to my husband, because he was the lead investigator. Karasik: Correct. Graham: But equal to the other party, who happened to be a guy, in the research trailer doing the same work I was doing. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Well, I’m glad to hear that. And it must have also really been nice to work with your husband and be able to share your knowledge and excitement about the job. That must have been–been really great. Graham: Well, he was a marine biologist, so he was quite into it. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Now, I wasn’t as into the organisms, because I was more terrestrial biologist, of course. Karasik: Right. Graham: Backyard gardening, etc. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: But I did appreciate the fact that this was a–basically a clean form of energy, compared to burning coal. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And, um— Karasik: And how do you feel about that now? Not that we have to go into a huge nuclear discussion. Graham: Well, now it’s shut down. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And of course, the–the complication is dealing with the remnants, the radioactive remnants. Karasik: Yes. 9 �Graham: And I’d like to see the country go more and more into clean energy—but nuclear was considered clean— Karasik: Right. Graham: —and weed ourself away from the energy sources that are not considered good for the environment. Karasik: You know, that reminds me. At the EcoFest, there was another booth that passed out quite a bit of information about the San Onofre situation and what we need to know as far as how close some of those storage tanks are to water sources and other things like that. Do you—is that a concern for you at all? Or do you think the public is aware of that? Graham: I think they’re doing a good job dealing with that. I would eventually like to see that material moved. For decades now, they’ve talked about moving it to a—I’ve forgotten the exact location. Karasik: There’s a place in Nevada, I know. Graham: Yeah. I don’t know exactly where in Nevada, but— Karasik: And then, of course, there’s the NIMBY—Not In My Backyard. Graham: Yes. Karasik: And then the people in Nevada were like “Well, you know, we don’t want it here.” So, I think this is an interesting discussion that in decades to come when people come back and look at this and will see what–what’s been done that’s much more safe, and–and won’t that–won’t that be great, hopefully. Graham: But, I’m sure glad we weren’t burning more— Karasik: Yes. Graham: —coal at the time to generate that energy— Karasik: Exactly. Graham: —when we were using. Karasik: And that–and that’s still an issue. So, then, tell me a little bit about either how San Onofre ended. You had a–a–I know you have one son that you had mentioned to me. So, tell me a little bit about your family and tell me about your–your parents and your husband’s parents, and where they came from and, you know, how your lives developed here in North County. Graham: Oh. Well, my husband and I moved to Encinitas over forty years ago. And, because it was relatively close to where the Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility was, where I was staying in the office for a year and processing the data from San Onofre. And my parents still lived in San Diego and my in-laws also lived in San Diego. So, it was smart to live on the Encinitas, south of where we went to work, because that was closer to go and visit them, which 10 �we frequently did. And my son—the family joke is “What does the only child of two biologists go into study-wise and stay in science, but get as far away philosophically and geographically from any of the biological studies as possible?” Astrophysics! (chuckles) So he got his–actually, his PhD finally. He started with his bachelor’s at Berkeley, and then wan–went to on get his Ph.D. at a–a—what is that, in Maryland, the institution?— Karasik: In Annapolis, or?— Graham: People think first of the medical aspect. Karasik: Right. Mm, we’ll come back to that. Graham: He’s going to criticize me for not remembering where he got his PhD. Karasik: Mmm. Graham: Anyway. And he had some research in astrophysics. Karasik: Not John Hopkins? [sic] Graham: John Hopkins, [sic] yes. I’m sorry. Karasik: Johns Hopkins. Okay, great. Graham: I’m going to have to apologize for a minute, not remembering, John Hopkins. [sic] Karasik: That’s alright. Yeah. Graham: He got his PhD at John Hopkins. [sic] Yes. Karasik: Yes. Prestigious. Yes. Graham: Yes. Karasik: So, you had just the one son? Graham: Just the one son. Karasik: Okay. So, tell me a little bit about where your parents came from, um, you know, what generation you are. Did they come directly to California? Do you know? ‘Cuz a lot of us don’t really know where our ancestors came from, other than immediate. How much do you know about both yours and your husband’s? Graham: Okay, my mother was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota. My father was born in Ohio. Now, I believe, possibly, the previous generation had come from Ireland and England and Germany. My in-laws, my mother-in-law was born in, I think, Kansas City, Missouri, which is, you know, Kansas City but it’s in Missouri, but I guess it’s a city that’s— Karasik: They’re sister cities on the border. Graham: Yes. Right across the river from each other. Karasik: Mm-hmm. 11 �Graham: And my father-in-law was born in Kirkcaldy, Scotland. Karasik: Mmm! So he immigrated here and— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —with his wife? Do you know? Graham: No. Karasik: Or did he meet her here? Graham: He married her here. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Yes. Karasik: And then I guess they all decided to come out to California? Do you know anything about that journey? Graham: Um, my father-in-law was working, I believe, in the aircraft industry, which was quite active at one time in San Diego. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Manufacturing. And my father was a career Marine, and was stationed out here at Camp Pendleton and— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —some other facilities in southern California. Karasik: There’s a lot of history from Camp Pendleton that will be in our Oral History. Graham: Oh! Good. Karasik: Yeah. So, I guess probably, let’s switch then a little bit. When we look at your life’s work, uh, did–did you want to say more about after you didn’t work for San Onofre anymore, did you get more involved tha—How did you get involved with the Master Gardeners? Let’s go there. Graham: Oh, well, um, we had my son. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And my neighbors warned me that, “If you’re looking for infant childcare, you can’t depend on the local teenagers, if you want to do a routine.” And I wanted to apply to Master Gardeners, which was going to be, I think, seventeen consecutive Tuesdays, and you were expected to attend every one, ideally. And I was wondering, “Okay.” So I asked my mother, “I would like to go through this Master Gardener program which is put on through the University of California Cooperative Extension and become a Master Gardener volunteer, which is dedicated 12 �to disseminating information for a successful and environmentally responsible home gardening. But your infant grandson would need care every Tuesday for like seventeen consecutive Tuesdays.” And she said yes. So, I’m very beholden to my mother because— Karasik: Thank you, mother! Graham: Yes. Karasik: Yes. Graham: Because otherwise I’m not sure where I could have dropped him off for just— Karasik: Right. And what year would that have been? Graham: He was born in 1982. Karasik: Mmm, so you had— Graham: Then it was in 1983 that I started the Master Gardener program. Karasik: Oh. Wonderful. Graham: He was just a year old. Karasik: Okay. So, how would you say that work has changed over the years for you, and just tell me more about—I–I–I think, in these interviews we want genera–future generations that come back and watch this and want to learn about the community and how the peoples lives were affected (Carol points to something off camera), what you’d—(Carol looks again off camera and starts to chuckle) what you would want them to know. Graham: Well, Encinitas is a great community to live in. The microclimate is fantastic for people who like to grow a diversity of fruit. Although before you grow any fruit trees, no matter where you’re living, always check that the microclimate is adapted. I frequently, at the Master Gardener exhibit, drag out the Sunset Western Garden book and ask people, “Do you have this?” And if you don’t, you can check it out at any good library and tell them that this book divides the western portion of the United States into twenty-four different micro zones. And I open the map and we can usually identify where they’re living, and at least before they go away, I can tell them, “Oh, you open up Sunset Garden book, and you want to look at what apple varieties grow in your microclimate, look for this number on the microclimate.” Because, unfortunately, as a Master Gardener I’ve had people tell me they have purchased certain fruit trees, certain varieties, and I ask, “Oh, where are you gardening?” And I have to tell them, “That variety is not adapted to your microclimate. It’s not going to thrive.” And I even had a personal situation. Years ago, there was a new variety of—I’ve forgotten whether it was, um, a peach or a nectarine—and it came out—it was supposed to be okay for zone 24, close to the coast in southern California. And the next year, after I’d bought it that year, the next year they said “Sorry. We made a mistake. It’s further inland that it’s adapted to.” So, I dug up the tree, had a fellow Master Gardener who lived further inland and said “Would you like 13 �this tree? Because I bought this under the belief that it was going to thrive, and now they’ve changed what they’ve recommended.” Karasik: Right. Graham: So, it is critical to do your research first to be successful in gardening. And we don’t want you wasting water, putting water on varieties of plants that are not adapted to your microclimate, whether it’s fruit trees or just ornamentals. Karasik: That is so important. So— Graham: Especially with water being super critical now. Karasik: Absolutely, which will be another interesting aspect to look at when future generations, uh—what that’s going to be like. Do you—So, was your husband involved in the Master Gardeners too? Or then did you—you didn’t work, uh, when you had your son. Graham: Right. Karasik: And then what–what did he do? (Carol looks puzzled at the question) What was his work? Did he st— Graham: My–my husband’s work? Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Well, he continued to work for the Lockheed Marine Biological Research. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, now he wasn’t involved directly in Master Gardeners, but I must say that, uh, there were frequently times when I would have a long day at a Master Gardener exhibit, um, like you experienced at the Encinitas EcoFest recently, and I’d be driving home and very often he had the garage door open for me, ‘cuz I had told him when I went off, I hoped to be back in this time period, and the garage door was opened. I could drive right in. And he was a great cook, so it was wonderful because there was dinner waiting for me all ready and he really spoiled me. (chuckles) So— Karasik: That’s so wonderful. Graham: —not directly in Master Gardeners but he did support me to a high degree in Master Gardener. Karasik: Yeah. Behind ever—huh—there’s a saying: “Behind every great man is an exhausted woman.” (both she and Carol chuckle) Graham: Right. 14 �Karasik: And so I think we could probably— Graham: (nodding her head) Yes. Karasik: —turn that around. Um, what would you say some–are some of your greatest accompish–accomplishments in your life? Graham: Well, reaching out to so many people at Master Gardeners has made me really feel good in that, as I say, I want people, ideally, to have at least a little bit of a–an edible garden. So when their kids come around and the kids have the opportunity as young gardeners to pick that lovely tomato or bell pepper (gestures as if picking something with her right hand) or maybe it’s a fruit—a peach or nectarine—and eat it and say, “Mmm, really good,” that they directly understand where their food comes from. Karasik: (whispers) Yes. Graham: Because, while some of our food comes from the ocean and the rivers and the lakes, so much of it comes from the good earth. And children who grow up picking the stuff from their garden, I think, are going to realize that and makes a connection and be far less apt to pollute or litter. ‘Cuz they understand why would you want to put pollution or litter on the ground. That’s where your food comes from! Karasik: Exactly. Do you feel like you’ve been successful in educating hopefully thousands of people, because there is a lot of concern now about our food sources? And I myself just recently got a tower garden because I want to be able to grow my own food and it seems like we might be moving more to that. Um, you know, I don’t know if we want to get into it, but we may just want to mention because of the—being a–a–an oral history, you know, monocropping and how all the large corporations have taken over the farming. And so is this—Do you feel like you’ve had a little place in there where you’ve been able to— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —educate. Graham: And also sharing with people the experience. Well, there are some peaches and nectarines I’ve enjoyed purchasing in the market, but none of them have the fantastic flavor that my mother and I used to grow and the Panamint nectarine—that’s the one we really adore. And some people love the Babcock peach, but that’s sweet-on-sweet. And my personal taste buds like the sweet with tang, which the Panamint lives up to. So, you can customize better your favorites by growing them. And of course, the macadamia! Well, the macadamia nut—what is that— $12.99 to $19.99 a pound for the nuts in the market when you buy them. Well, you can grow them yourself. They’re easy to grow, although heads up! (points her left pointer finger into the air). I want to alert everybody. They are really a lot of work to crack, even if you buy the specific macadamia cracker which I bought. But so I try to educate people as to this and— Karasik: Mm-hmm. 15 �Graham: ‘Cuz the macadamia tree was my husband’s, um—I don’t know if it was his birthday, or his Christmas present the first year after we moved in. He wanted a macadamia. Karasik: Nice. Well, I’m definitely going to be coming to you, because even me being over in the far east side of North County, that is going to be different. And I’m very excited to learn more about what you think would be best for me to plant, primarily just for me to consume. Graham: Mm-hmm. Good. Karasik: That’s my—And also, did you want to talk a little bit about all the different flowers that are edibles that people don’t know about, different fl–like nasturtians [sic], for example. Graham: I’m really not educated on that aspect. My mother wasn’t into edible flowers, and I haven’t gone into it because I’ve been so enamored of the–the fruits, mais–mostly tree fruits. Karasik: Sure, yeah. Pe— Graham: And–and thornless blackberries! Karasik: Oh! Graham: Yes, ‘cuz I grew up with the Olallie blackberry which mother had which was delicious but boy does that have thorns! (holds up both her hands, fingers spread wide to emphasize prickliness of thorns) Karasik: Really! Graham: Decades of research and now we have thornless varieties out there. Karasik: Oh, I didn’t know that! Graham: So, yes. Triple crown. Karasik: It’ll–it’ll be really interesting for botanists, for example, who might be–get to hear these–this interview, in particular, and see how things have changed. I mean, there is certainly the concern that California may become a desert. And we do definitely have water issues right now. Does that, uh, take up some of your time of concern? Graham: It is concerning. However, I tell people, “Well, um, hopefully when we get off this third year of really severe drought here in San Diego County and people actually start to feel they can put plants in the ground again, well, instead of putting ornamentals, why not put some edibles? Wouldn’t that be a better use of the water?” And as I said you can also customize, so you can put your–your edible in the variety that you couldn’t even find in the market. Karasik: Right. Like sunchokes, Jerusalem artichokes. Those are hard to find, and very nutritious— Graham: Yeah. Karasik: —for example. Well, we could certainly talk about gardening (both Graham and Karasik chuckle). And that’s–and that was a lot of my reason for wanting to interview you, 16 �because I think this will be very interesting to, um, our descendants. I guess, uh, if there’s anymore that you’d like to tell about what you–what like what changes you would like to see for future generations, and if you had a chance to talk to some of these future generations, not just around Master Gardening but just about life in general and what you’ve learned over the years, what–what you think is most important that, uh— Graham: Well, continuing on some of the issues that we mentioned—less lawn, and more drought tolerant or edibles. Um, now there are some people who have a legitimate desire to have a lawn. They have young kids who do want to play on it. But that doesn’t mean they have to have a lawn both front and the back. And, um, after a certain length of time, maybe they want to take the lawn out because their kids are no longer playing on it— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And cracking open the reference books, even good old Sunset Western Garden book. And it has a plant finder section. And one of the things that it addresses there are low water use plants. Karasik: Drought tolerant. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Yes. Graham: As well as delving through the various edibles— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: —making sure you select the right variety for your microclimate, so you’re successful and don’t waste water on a variety that was doomed from the start. Karasik: Yeah. Hmm, well, we’ve just covered that so well. I think, more than—it sounds like you’ve had a wonderful life and, of course, everything’s not perfect. There is a question here. What are your regrets? Or what would you do over if you could. Did you want to speak to that by chance? Or— Graham: Well, I regret my husband passed away. My husband died. Karasik: Yes. If you want to— Graham: And I didn’t appreciate enough all the great cooking he used to do. Um, so now I’m spending a whole lot more time from going to the grocery store and buying the food and prepping the food and thinking ahead, “Okay, I have this many drumsticks. Am I going to eat chicken this many nights, or am I going to eat some of this, and what’s in the freezer, and how much time it takes.” ‘Cuz I’ve a terribly neglected yard. But I am enjoying the social aspect of going out for Master Gardener exhibits. Karasik: Yes. Graham: Especially since my husband is gone now. 17 �Karasik: Right. Graham: So— Karasik: And it hasn’t been that long, so—I know that, um, my condolences and I know how that is. We–we all have to accept that part of life. And— Graham: Mm-hmm. I’m grateful that he did have a good quality of life up until the very end. Karasik: Yes. And I think, too, that again that’s a lot why this oral history project is so important. Because we don’t realize what interesting lives people have had. And it doesn’t get documented. So, we certainly have more time. Um, here’s a couple of questions here around community that might–might be interesting. It says “In what w–ways is your neighborhood special or has it been unique or what are some of the favorite places in your community, and how has–how has this area changed since you moved here? And that’s— Graham: Yeah. Karasik: ―a big one. Graham: When my husband and I first moved here, we didn’t even buy groceries in Encinitas because there were very few grocery stores, you know. This was over forty-five years ago. And there was a grocery store we’d go right past when we were leaving that place of work. So, it made more sense to stop there, but it wasn’t in Encinitas. And of course, I like to spend my consumer dollars in my own community. And now we have over ten grocery stores!! I mean, in an hour—excuse me, in a mile and a half, I can walk to four different grocery stores in my community. And frequently I am walking because it’s checking off my exercise for the day and checking off my eco-point for the day, ‘cuz I’m not driving my vehicle, um, and I enjoy it! And Encinitas allows me to do this because of all the grocery stores they have, which forty-five years ago— Karasik: And they’re some of the finest–some of the finest grocery stores. Graham: Nice diversity. Karasik: Not the least expensive, by any means, but definitely some of the highest quality and the largest diversity of what is offered. Graham: Yes. And we have farmer’s markets. Karasik: We do. Graham: Two of them in Encinitas. Karasik: Yeah. Let’s talk–let’s talk a little bit about those. Do you get to know any of those farmers? Or— Graham: I actually—way back when, was it Harry Stone? Don’t quote me.—who founded the first farmer’s market in San Diego County up in Vista. He was a member of the California Rare 18 �Fruit Growers. And I’ve been an avid member of the California Rare Fruit Growers for decades. And the idea took off and it was great. Karasik: You know, another interview that I did, I learned that the–there is a big difference, obviously, between an egg farm, a truck farm, and a—are you familiar with that? So, the truck farm is the vegetables that you would then truck to the market. And then obviously the egg farm and the chickens, because Cal State San Marcos that was a huge egg farm. And actually, on the way over here you were telling me there was a wonderful nursery here that has now been— Graham: Sunshine Gardens Nursery is now closed, and it was a very nice nursery for I don’t know how many decades here. Karasik: Mm-hmm. And now it’s–it’s–they’re making room for housing because we need that, and–and I think all the more reason. We have community gardens here. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Did you want to talk a little bit about that? Graham: I think it’s wonderful we have a community garden, quite close to the Heritage Museum here in Encinitas. And there are people who live in condominiums or apartments and they don’t have a yard to put a garden. So, community garden gives them wonderful opportunity. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: Um, now, I do want to encourage people, even if they don’t have a yard, to consider possibly growing—we used to call it pot culture, but now that gives you the wrong impression— container gardening! (laughs) Karasik: Right. Graham: Yes. For instance, you can grow a nice return of blackberries, pick the thornless varieties in a fifteen-gallon pot, fifteen-gallon black plastic pot. Or you can put a more decorative pot if you’d like and make it more decorative, and you can put it on your balcony perhaps on your condominium or apartment. Mind that you give it full sun, etc. But, even without having a yard, there are some edibles you can grow if you research things carefully. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Have you found that people in your neighborhood come to you and ask you for your advice? Or how do you—(both she and Graham chuckle) I think I’m going to be asking you for some advice, for sure. Graham: Well, this was an interesting first four months in the year 2022. I captured six gophers. Now only one of them in my yard. I’m grateful for it was only one in my yard. But the other five were in three different neighbors’ yards. And I was labeled the gopher getter. I’ve captured gophers in other yards previous years too, but this was an especially active first four months of the year, for some reason. 19 �Karasik: Do you think—and I might even have heard somewhere—do you think that the drought had a lot to do with that, that they might even be seeking water or food, or are–are they—maybe they’ve increased their offspring. Do we know why? Graham: I don’t think so. I didn’t hear anything connecting those variables. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: It was just a— Karasik: And then where do you take ‘em? When you catch them. Graham: Well, there are no have-a-heart traps for gophers. You realize this is–(makes a gesture with her right hand of cutting off her head and lets out a scraping sound) these are kill traps. Karasik: Oh. Graham: Because the gopher is not a wanted critter to release in a wild area. No. So, the traps you’d use are kill traps for gophers. Karasik: Hmm. Unfortunate, but necessary. Graham: Mm-hmm. Because remember if you don’t deal with it early, the pest note that University of California Cooperative Extension puts out on gophers, I believe it says, “In irrigated areas, like our gardens, gophers can have up to three litters a year.” And I believe they said the number in the litter can vary from like five to seven. So, that’s a pretty horrific number of offspring they could produce in a year, if you don’t deal with them quickly. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And I think it was this year I was given the gopher getter title, because the one party I trapped a gopher successfully was just put the trap in one day and the next day I had it. And she happened to comment to her neighbor across the street, and he had a gopher, so he contacted me. And there were these three neighbors fairly close to each other on an adjacent street, that— Karasik: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Graham: And the first four months of the year that—bing–bing–bing. Karasik: Hmm. Um, going back to—you’ve mentioned a couple of times. So it’s U.C. California San Diego, because when I tried to contact you, there is a division there. Do you want to tell us a little bit how that’s set up, ‘cuz I know you’re kind of under their umbrella. And— Graham: Well, the Master Gardener program is a volunteer branch of the University of California Cooperative Extension. It’s not just one university, ‘cuz sometimes people have thought, “Oh, you’re office is at U.C.S.D.” No, no, it’s actually in the County Operations Center in Corina Mesa. Karasik: Mmm. 20 �Graham: And we have information that is generated from all of these universities throughout the state. Now some of it applies directly to where we’re here in the San Diego. Another applies to more northern California areas. But the information clearly tells you that. And of course, our tax money is paying for some of this research, because we have a very productive agricultural economy in California. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And the research is directed toward the agricultural, commercial aspect. But there are spinoff bits of information that are generated that directly help the home gardener as well. So we’re out there. As a matter of fact, if I can bend your ear, the story about the creation of the Master Gardener program was apparently it started in Washington state. And this good-hearted cooperative extension agent was getting a lot of calls, people having questions on their home garden situation. But he was being paid to advise and help out the commercial growers and farmers. And he didn’t want to be rude and not help them, but he had his plate full helping the commercial farmers. So he got the brilliant idea. I’ll train a crew of volunteers and when I get a home garden question I will pass the question on to them. And that’s what I was told started the Master Gardener program. And now I’ve been told that we actually have Master Gardeners in all fifty states. Karasik: Oh, wow, good. Graham: So— Karasik: Oh, that’s great. Well, um, we’ve certainly had an interesting conversation here and if there’s anything else that you would like to tell. We’re so appreciative of the work that you’ve done and I can see where that’s been a really big part of your life and I’ve–I’m assuming very rewarding— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —and it’s enabled you to make a lot of friends and— Graham: And I’d like to say also I’m very pleased to volunteer for the Solana Center for Environmental Innovation. Karasik: Oh, that’s such a great place. Graham: Right here in Encinitas. Karasik: Let’s talk about that just for a little bit, because again in the future I think that will be something that will still be here. Graham: Yes, of course. Karasik: And they do so many things there. Let’s talk about that a little bit. Graham: Well, they were at the Encinitas EcoFest, right next to my Master Gardener exhibit. And they teach many aspects and as far as gardening, composting, very important. And instead of having that truck rumble through your neighborhood once a week and pick up the green waste 21 �in the bin, if more of us could compost on site, it would help the environment. Also, of course, if you’ve ever gone to the nursery and priced bags of potting soil and compost, it’s not inexpensive if you consider the number of bags you could use as an avid gardener for the year. Karasik: And I don’t know if we always know where all that soil came from. Graham: Well, it is nice to have control of it from your own garden and know what went into it exactly. Karasik: Exactly. Graham: And while it does take a little bit of room and it does take some time, it also is a nice excuse to get out into the fresh air in the garden. Karasik: What do you recommend, because I know a lot of people are afraid to compost because they think it will bring critters? Graham: Oh, okay. When you are putting certain elements in the compost pile that you think might accidentally bring critters like the egg shell, or the citrus peel or the avocado pits or something, it is highly recommended that you bury that in the compost pile with a layer at least four inches maybe even six inches of yard trimmings above it. That will basically absorb any odors and of course it’s not recommended that you put bones in the compost pile, because that would tend to attract critters. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Now, will–will worms come into that? Or is a worm compost kind of a separate approach to composting? Graham: Well there is vermicompost in a worm bin. Karasik: Right. Graham: Worms will come into your compost pile. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And you give them things to eat. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: The fruit waste, like the peels and pits, etc. As well as the decomposing leaves and twigs, etc. Karasik: Leftover food, and lettu—greens, things like that. Graham: Vegetables and fruits leftover. Karasik: Yeah. Yeah. Graham: Not meat. Of course. Karasik: Right, right. 22 �Graham: Not meat or bugs. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: And of course, you’ve moistened the environment in the compost pile to help it decompose and they–worms breathe through their skin and they need a moist–yep, they actually need a moist skin to survive. So, they are very happy to find this moist environment which offers them perfect lodging and food buffet, moisture, yes. Karasik: Just for my own curiosity. I’ve always been fascinated by earthworms and the fact that you’ve–that you’ve–they’re w–w–one of the few living beings where you can cut off their head and they’ll grow another one. Is that correct? Graham: No. that’s not— Karasik: They’ll grow, maybe not their head, but the back end or— Graham: No. Karasik: That’s not true? Graham: Um, too many people—I mean, depending on the amount you cut off at the tail end, they might survive. Karasik: Not intentionally, obviously. Graham: Yeah. But if you accidentally cut one in two, some people have this misconception that you’ll get two worms. No. It’ll die. Karasik: Aw. I had that misconception. Graham: Yeah. That’s a popular— Karasik: And they are so critical. Graham: Yes. Karasik: They are so critical. But probably one of the most or when we look at–at soil. Are you familiar with soil regeneration and some of the ways that they’re trying now to—because so much of our soil has been depleted? Do you get involved in that, or are you just— Graham: Well, with the compost pile, you’re helping replenish. Karasik: mm-hmm. Graham: And when you think about it, okay. The nutrients it takes for let’s say your peach tree to make peaches, it has to make leaves. Well, some of that is from the very leaves that came, matured, off the tree. So, you’re recycling it in the compost pile and putting it back underneath the tree when you’re putting some compost into the soil under your peach tree. Karasik: Right. Wonderful. That’s–that’s a good point as well. 23 �Graham: Mm-hmm. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: So you’re just basically recycling the nutrients as opposed to chucking them into the trash and hauling them off to the land fill. Karasik: Yeah. Graham: And not even chucking them into the green bin and having them hauled off. But, at least when it goes to the green facility at Miramar, it gets repurposed. But it’s more. Karasik: Have you ever visited that place? Graham: Oh yes! It was fantastic. This was decades ago. Karasik: That would be a wonderful tour. Graham: There was a field trip—I don’t remember if it was Master Gardeners or the Encin—the Solana Center sponsored the field trip decades ago. It was so much fun! And wow, it was interesting. Karasik: I’d like to do that. I’d also like to visit one of these desalination plants and see how they’re doing that. Graham: Oh, yes. Karasik: Because that seems to be the future. Now, that’s another point. Graham: I was able to take a tour of that too. That was Solana Center that hosted that decades ago. Karasik: Oh, did they? Graham: From up the street at the Carlsbad Desalinization Plant. Karasik: Yes! I might ask them if they know how somebody can do that now. One other thing I wanted to ask about the Solana Center. I had seen something where you can get some buckets and take it home, and so you can kind of get compost from them, or maybe a starter? How does that work? Graham: Um, you pay a fee. I—don’t quote me because I’m not sure exactly how much it is. You get a bucket to take home, and you put your fruit and vegetable waste in it, and also bones and—in other words, if you’re not composting you put these materials in there. Karasik: Mm-hmm. Graham: And it has some bokashi in it, which ferments it. Karasik: Is bokashi an organism that breaks it down? Graham: It’s a— 24 �Karasik: What is that? Graham: —it’s more like a chemical— Karasik: Oh, okay. Graham: —that pickles it. I think it’s what they compare it to. Karasik: Okay. Graham: And you can take that back, and then you can get some finished compost as well. So— Karasik: Oh, that’s how— Graham: —but you’ll–you’ll want to call the Solana Center and ask for the details. Karasik: Right. Yes. I’ve been over there and they were very supportive to us— Graham: Yes. Karasik: —for the EcoFest as well. Graham: Yes. Karasik: Well, I just want to thank you for your time. And this has been a really interesting and educational interview. And you have definitely had a wonderful life, and I sense the fact that you will be around for quite a while and helping a whole lot more people. And I’m so happy to know you and really appreciate your time, and what you’re going to offer for future generations. Graham: Well, thanks for this opportunity to reach out to people. Karasik: Oh, absolutely. You’re so welcome. So again we’re—actually, I don’t know if I mentioned this. We’re at the San Dieguito Heritage Museum which is here in Encinitas and I really wish that people could see that, although they’ll have the opportunity to do that, you know, locally. But the history here at this particular museum is incredible, as well. So, would encourage people to come out if they happen to listen to this and we thank them also for the opportunity to use their equipment, and hope that this will be a good video. So, thank you very much. Graham: You’re very welcome. Karasik: And we will finish here. 25 �GLOSSARY Babcock peach (pg. 15) Biophaline (pg. 7, 8) California Rare Fruit Growers (pg. 18-19) Carlsbad Desalinization Plant (pg. 24) County Operations Center [Corina Mesa] (pg. 20) EcoFest (pg.1, 6, 10, 14, 21, 25) Glyphosate (pg.6) Heritage Museum (pg. 19) Integrated Pest Management (pg.3, 4) Johns Hopkins University (pg. 11) Kirkcaldy, Scotland (pg. 12) Lockheed Marine Biology Research facility (pg. 10, 14) Master Gardener(s) (pg. 1-4, 6, 12-15, 17, 20-21, 24) Panamint nectarine (pg. 15) Polychaete (pg. 7, 8) San Dieguito Heritage Museum (pg. 25) San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station [Plant One] (pg. 7, 8, 10, 12) Solana Center for Environmental Innovation (pg. 21, 24-25) Stone, Harry (pg. 18) Sunset Western Garden book (pg. 13, 17) Sunshine Gardens Nursery (pg. 19) Truck farm (pg. 19) University of California Cooperative Extension (pg. 12, 20, 21) Vermicompost (pg. 22) 26 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Graham. Carol. Interview transcript, November 4, 2022. Description An account of the resource Carol Graham is a Master Garderner. She has a Bachelor's degree in Zoology and began her career working at Saturn Oak–San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station Plant One. After its closure, she enrolled to become a Master Gardner volunteer that was sponsered through the University of California Cooperative Extension program. The Master Gardner program is dedicated to distributing information for an environmentally-responsible home and garden. She has been a Master Gardner since 1983 and participates in various events such as EcoFest. She is very passionate about the study of insects, pest management, composting, and protecting the environment from pesticides. This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society & Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Carol Graham Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Suzy Karasik Melissa Martin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-04 Subject The topic of the resource Crops -- Diseases and pests -- Biological control Gardening -- California -- San Diego County Master gardeners -- California -- San Diego County Organic farming San Diego State University San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station (Calif.) University of California (System). Cooperative Extension Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Encinitas (Calif.) North San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Carol Graham License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GrahamCarol_KarasikSuzy_2022-11-04_Transcription Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience