9 10 181 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ryan Willis Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mark Wyland OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. American politics;California government;State Assembly;California Senate;Oral history in classrooms OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Wyland, Mark. Interview, April 10, 2023 SC027-38 02:30:04 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation and was created as part of the CSUSM University Library and History Department Internship in Oral History. csusm Politics and government -- 20th century ; Politics and government -- 21st century ; School boards -- California -- Escondido ; Lumberyards -- California -- Escondido ; California. Legislature. Assembly ; California. Legislature. Senate ; International relations ; Bills, Legislative ; Legislation -- California ; Oral history American politics ; California government ; State Assembly ; California Senate ; Oral history in classrooms Mark Wyland Ryan Willis .wav WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/064306702b5e232aff51531efbfa8101.wav Other audio English 0 Family history / Upbringing / Early career Mark Wyland begins the interview by discussing his family history. His maternal grandparents had moved to San Diego in 1925 and his grandfather was an Escondido city councilman and a supervisor for North County. His grandfather, father, and uncle also began a lumber and building materials business, which is still in operation today. Wyland also explains that he grew up in Escondido and attended Escondido High School. After high school, he attended Pomona College and studied International Relations. He further explains how he later worked for the City of New York on school construction while in graduate school before returning home to join the family lumber and plywood business. He adds that he stayed with the family business for twenty years. San Diego (Calif.) ; Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; New York (NY) ; lumber and plywood business ; family business ; Ponoma College ; International Relations 0 347 The teachers who inspired Wyland Mark Wyland recounts the teachers in his life who made an impact on his upbringing. He credits many teachers from his childhood and teenage years, such as his fourth grade and eighth grade teachers, Mrs. Stevens and Mrs. Von Bergen, as well as his German teacher, Bob Maywald. Wyland later studied abroad in Germany due to his positive experience in Maywald’s class. He also credits his high school speech teacher, Cliff Summerall, for inviting him to join the debate team and sparking his interest in politics. He also briefly discusses joining the family business and the importance of solving problems in a competitive market. Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; School ; Teachers ; Fourth grade ; Eighth grade ; High school ; Study abroad programs ; Debate teams ; Family business 0 842 Managing the family business Mark Wyland reflects on how running the family business shaped him as a person. He explains how being involved in the decision-making of the business made him realize that he was analytical and wanted to solve problems, which would be later prove beneficial to him when he entered politics. Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; Lumber and plywood business ; Family business ; Problem solving ; Politics 0 1058 Semester abroad program in Germany Wyland recounts his semester abroad program in Germany when he was an undergraduate student at Pomona College. Wyland explains that he lived with a family for a month in the small town of Nördlingen. He lived with a family consisting of a husband and wife, their daughter, and their granddaughter, who was also a university student. He discusses the history of his host family, explaining how they had lived through World War I and had opposed Hitler. He then explains that he later was awarded a Fulbright scholarship to Germany after graduating with his Bachelor’s degree and spent a year there studying Germany policy. He reflects that both of these experiences in Germany, as well as the politics surrounding the Vietnam War, influenced his decision to enter into politics. Germany ; Nördlingen ; Study abroad programs ; Ponoma College ; Host family ; World War I ; Hitler ; Nazi Germany ; Vietnam War ; Politics ; Decision to enter politics 0 1683 School board race Mark Wyland explores his time running for the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board. Wyland describes the experience as “brutal” and “contentious.” He discusses incidents that happened during his time on the school board, such as a large portion of the board organizing to remove a Hispanic superintendent. He also describes campaigning to implement English education for Hispanic students in classroom curriculums during his first school board race. Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; School board race ; School board ; School board politics ; Board of Education ; Escondido Union School Board ; English education curriculums ; Hispanic population 0 2124 California State Assembly race Mark Wyland discusses his time running for the California State Assembly in 2000. He reflects that the race was far more political than he had originally anticipated. Wyland describes a conflict during the race between himself and the then-assemblyman. Wyland explains that the then-assemblyman did not agree with Wyland’s previous Democratic politics and had raised money for lobbyists to go against Wyland. California State Assembly ; Politics ; Political campaign ; Primary election ; Democrats ; Republicans ; Lobbyists 0 2542 Becoming California Senator Mark Wyland discusses his time as California Senator. Wyland represented District 38 from 2006 to 2014. Wyland reflects on his early start in the Senate and how he had an interest in education reform. He also learned early on in his career that the state government is organized similar to Congress in terms of its parties, caucuses, committees, and the floor. He also explores how he found government to be much more partisan than he originally expected. He also contemplates the topic of term limits, explains the difference between state and federal laws, and discusses politicians who had abused their power. Politics ; California State Senate ; California Senator ; District 38 ; Education reform ; Organization of state government ; Partisan government ; Term limits ; State and federal laws 0 3297 The U.S. educational system Mark Wyland discusses the educational system in the United States, with an emphasis on the importance on vocational schools. He first explains the history of vocational schools, beginning with skilled apprenticeships during the Middle Ages. He also reflects on the disadvantages of the dismantling of vocational schools in the U.S., including the loss of students learning practical skills, the demoralizing of students’ drive for learning, and the increase in student loan debt. School ; Educational system ; Educational system in the U.S. ; Vocational schools ; Apprenticeships 0 4333 What makes Wyland a unique Senator Mark Wyland responds to a quote from Senator Darrell Steinberg, who referred to Wyland as a “Republican romantic.” Wyland explains that he has a great deal of respect for Steinberg and finds the quote to be flattering. Wyland also discusses the difficulty of making progress in politics and the public educating themselves in governmental matters. Politics ; Senator Darrell Steinberg ; Republicans ; Making progress in politics 0 4569 Goals as a politician Mark Wyland first reflects on the general public’s view on politics. He believes that the public does not understand politics the way they should and that many do not make informed decisions when voting. Wyland explains that it is important for the public to be critical of their government, and he provides an example of the importance of being critical of governmental spending. He also states that his goal as a politician is to provide better quality government and to help the people in becoming better informed citizens. He also states his concern over the media’s biased coverage of political matters. Politics ; Goals as a politician ; General public's view on politics ; Making informed voting decisions ; Being critical of government spending ; Media's biased coverage of politics ; Newspapers 0 5771 Objectivity in politics Mark Wyland discusses objectivity in politics. He views objectivity as an ideology, which he perceives as problematic because he believes it is too rigid of a view. Wyland explains that in his opinion, political knowledge and discussion should be more pragmatic. He also states that it is important to understand life’s complex problems and to use our power to solve them. Wyland also reflects on the importance of humility and on society coming together and respecting one another’s point-of-view. Politics ; Objectivity ; Objectivity in politics 0 6484 San Diego energy bills Mark Wyland discusses a few of the energy-related bills that he wrote. Wyland explains that one of these bills was in response to the blackout crisis of 2000 and SDG&amp ; E’s increased price of natural gas. The bill was eventually vetoed by Gray Davis. San Diego (Calif.) ; Energy bills ; Blackouts ; Blackout crisis ; SDG&amp ; E ; Public Utilities Commission ; Municipal Utility District ; Natural gas ; Gray Davis ; Politics 0 7050 Promoting oral history/ Oral history bills Mark Wyland discusses his efforts in promoting oral history in classroom curriculums. He first explains how he learned to appreciate oral history learning through his own grandfather and the grandfather from his host family in Germany and their talent for storytelling. Wyland also discusses the bills that he wrote to emphasize and encourage the use of oral history in the classroom. These bills include creating curriculums that would incorporate oral history testimonies involving World War II, the Korea and Vietnam Wars, and the history of genocide. Oral history ; History ; Politics ; Classroom curriculums ; Oral history bills ; World War II ; Korean War ; Vietnam War ; The history of Genocide 0 8078 Romanticizing history/ Closing of interview Mark Wyland discusses the issue of romanticizing history in the classroom and in American society. Wyland uses the change over time in how Indigenous and Mexican history are taught in classrooms as examples. Wyland closes the interview by stating that politicians could not do their jobs without the help and support of the public. He adds that the American people deserve to feel good about who they vote into office, even if they do not agree with every decision that they make. History ; Romanticizing history ; Indigenous history ; Mexican history ; Classroom curriculums ; Politics ; Relationship between politicians and voters 0 Oral history interview with Mark Wyland on 04/10/2023. In this interview, Wyland discusses his upbringing and family background, including his family business in Pine Tree &amp ; Lumber. Wyland explains his education background along with studying in Germany for a year, and how he was motivated to choose a career in politics. Wyland expanded on his career on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board, becoming a member of the California State Assembly from 2000-2006, and then being elected into the California Senate in 2006, serving until 2014. Wyland reflects on his trials and tribulations throughout the years, offering his thoughts and suggestions on the current state of American politics and how it can be improved. Wyland also speaks on K-12 school curriculum, Native American History, and the importance of Oral History being taught in the classroom. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:30.000 Hello, this is Ryan Willis, and today I am interviewing former California Senator Mark Wyland for the California State University San Marcos Library Special Collections Oral History project. Today is Monday, April 10th, 2023. The time is 2:32 PM and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Mr. Wyland, thank you so much for interviewing with me today. 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:33.000 You're very welcome, Ryan. Please call me Mark. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:55.000 You got it, Mark. Appreciate that (both laugh). So obviously you have a very rich and impressive resume when it comes to education and politics, so definitely going to get into all of that during this interview. But I want to start off by asking you about your upbringing and your family background. Because I definitely believe that's important to bring up. First off, when and where were you born? 00:00:55.000 --> 00:02:11.000 Well, I was actually born in San Diego at Mercy Hospital, which is still there. It's part of the Scripps Network now. And Escondido at the time, I'm not sure it really had a full-service hospital, but I grew up in Escondido. My maternal grandparents had moved there in 1925 and they had a business, a plumbing business. And after the war, meaning World War II, my maternal grandfather, Brian Sweet, who had been an Escondido city councilman and also a supervisor for North County, he started a business with my dad and my uncle, and it was a lumber and building material supply business, pine tree lumber. It still exists. It's not in our family, but based in Escondido. And so, I grew up there, went to Escondido High School. When here we are in San Marcos--San Marcos didn't have a high school (laughs). 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:12.000 Right. 00:02:12.000 --> 00:05:25.000 They went to Escondido. And then I went to college in Pomona College, which is in Claremont, California, where they have a group of colleges, the Claremont Colleges. I got interested in--studied International Relations, which is foreign affairs. I spent a year after college on a grant in Germany. And then I was in graduate school in New York studying to be a professor of international affairs. But I'd gone straight through and I, you know, it was kind of a time as a young man where I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. I'm not a city guy. I hated New York (laughs) because I grew up in rural Escondido, basically in an avocado grove. And so, I ended up--I got a lot out of that program--but I ended up working for the university. And then I worked for the City of New York on school construction of all things. And I was very close to my grandfather, and he wanted me to come back and join the family business. I thought I would never do that. But he had had a stroke and I was very close to him, and I was sick of New York, and I thought, “Well, I'll just interrupt the program.” You know, I can always go back, and something that was important and played out later: I wrote a master's thesis on a topic that really interested me. Basically, it was how people see the world, their worldview. And so I came back, I thought it would be here a year, and I ended up staying. And this was a business I'd worked in summers as a kid, and I'd done every job, you know, manual labor, loading lumber, driving forklifts, driving trucks. I'd done all that. And I ended up doing that for, my gosh, almost twenty years. And that also had a big impact on learning how to solve problems. And my dad, who's extraordinary, I learned a great deal from him--unfortunately, passed away fairly young, but I always had this interest in what we might call “public policy.” And I always had this interest in schools. And I had tried early on in that job, they had an opening on the high school board, not an election-appointed one. I tried to get that. I didn't get that (laugh). 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:26.000 Right. 00:05:26.000 --> 00:12:11.000 And so, it turned out there was another opening on the Escondido Union Board, which is K-8. And I applied for that and got it. And the rest is history. And we can talk about that. And I know we have questions. I would like a shout out though to a few Escondido teachers who really made a big difference. And first, my fourth-grade teacher. Believe it or not, I lived in old, it was in town then--Central School. Mrs. Stevens, who told stories about when she was living in Mexico City and married to her husband who's Mexican. Really interesting stories. And I thought, you know, that's a different culture, and that's pretty interesting. And then I had this wonderful eighth grade teacher for social studies, Mrs. Von Bergen. It didn't hurt that I had a crush on her (Willis laughs). Oh my gosh. And in eighth grade in California, you spend a lot of time on the Civil War. And again, she really piqued my curiosity because I remember learning that it wasn't just simple. It was more complicated between the North or the South. And we actually--that was the first time I had to write a term paper, which I found later, I still have. And it's, you know, it's not very well done, but it's eighth grade (Willis laughs). And I realized between what I was trying to write was--this is really interesting: the North was industrialized and the South was agricultural, and there are all these other cross currents. And then when I was a sophomore in high school, the speech teacher, Clifford Summerall, he was invited to go into a class where students were giving oral reports, and I gave one. And I was pretty good at that. So, he asked me to join their debate team, and they had tournaments. And these are national. And all kinds of speaking ; humorous speeches. I've forgotten the categories. And they had a national topic, which I don't think they do that anymore. They still have speech, but it tends to be more impromptu where you learn about a whole bunch of things and they say, what do you think about--whatever it might be? And that era was a national topic, and the topic that first--yeah, I was fifteen, a sophomore, right, was “Should we strengthen NATO?” Well, that was sixty years ago, (Willis laughs), and it's as current today as it was then. And what made it--why it had such a big impact was they gave you the materials and you had the same topic for the whole year. So, while my friends are--and I don't mean to diminish this, you have to do it, but it's, you know, they're reading chapter eight and answering the questions and the tests on Friday kind of thing--I'm learning about post-World War II and the Soviet Union and their march and to those eastern European states, all this really adult stuff. And because at a tournament, they would assign you different sides--you're for or against--so you really had to learn about the issue. And what fascinated me was: it's not that simple. There are arguments for it and against it, and you don't know for sure how it's going to work out. A lot of the people doing debate, you could tell were going to be future lawyers. You know, I had my kind of sport coat and a tie, and I had to laugh in retrospect, some of them would, you know, their kids would come in like these dark, you know, suits, and they would try all these tricks. It was about winning. But for me it was like, “What's the answer?” And then the next year, the question was, “Should we increase federal aid to education?” Again, it's as current today as it was then. And so you had to look at a lot of analyses and statistics. So Cliff Summerall gave me a gift. He's still alive, he's in his nineties. I met him on a plane from Sacramento by sitting down to him--I'd forgotten. And I thanked him in some detail. And according to his wife, he was very moved. He gave me a real gift. And then I had a couple of other iconic teachers, anyone of a certain age will remember John Georges. English teacher who had been a Marine in the South Pacific and World War II. And a German teacher, Bob Maywald, who was German and had as a teenager gotten here after the war. So those are local people that really made a difference. But--and I ended up majoring in International Relations because really of that interest. 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:12.000 Right. 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:21.000 And ended up spending the year in Germany, because I had a really good German teacher. So, when I got to college, that was pretty easy. 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:22.000 Yeah. 00:12:22.000 --> 00:13:43.000 So, I can stop there. One of the thing I do want to add, when I ended up coming back here and being in the business ; the building material supply, especially lumber and plywood, mostly for houses, it's a commodity. And it's very competitive, because, how do you say, “Well, our two by four is better than their two by four?” And so, it has to be not only the quality of the lumber, but the service and that sort of thing. And prices change really fast, and you really have to be on top of it, but you have to--it's not a business you can just let go by. And so, every day you have to know what you're selling, if there's a problem, if your competitor is undercutting you, and you have to get on it to solve the problem. Many of our competitors went under because you--and so I learned that you have to solve problems. You can't ignore them, and you better get after it. 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:44.000 Right. 00:13:44.000 --> 00:14:02.000 So, I'll just stop there. I guess I had been doing that for, I don't know, twenty years, somewhere in that neighborhood. But I wanted to do something else. I was interested in education, and that's why I went for that school board appointment. 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:16.000 Yeah, I was going to ask for the family business that anybody within your family tried to push you to stay in that line of work, or were they more open to you doing other things? 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:20.000 My dad, had he lived, would've been very encouraging, I think. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:23.000 Yeah. 00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:35.000 And I learned that his dad, who had passed away before I was born, who I thought was just a quiet engineer type, turns out he was fascinated with international affairs. 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:36.000 Oh. 00:14:36.000 --> 00:15:01.000 Would read newspapers. That was during the Roosevelt era. My--I was in the business with my cousin and I were running it, and his dad was still there, but my cousin and I were running that, and I think they thought I was crazy (both laugh). Which is what a lot of people think, you know, it's conflict and-- 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:02.000 Yeah. 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:06.000 It's thankless, which it pretty much is. 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:17.000 (laughs) Right, I was going to say, pretty much what it sounds like. So, but it really sounds like that business really helped shape who you became and it really helped you when it came to getting into politics. 00:15:17.000 --> 00:16:07.000 Yeah. What it did was, I always had this analytical bent and, you know, to go from college and think about a PhD and all that, you have to be very analytical. But what it added was: you better identify a problem and you better fix it, because if you wait it was very unforgiving. You know, there are businesses where, you know, it's just steady. And, and it wasn't like that. When I started out there were probably twenty lumber yards in San Diego County, and when we finally sold it in early 2000s there were basically two. 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:08.000 Right. 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:18.000 So. And so when I got into government, I wanted to solve problems, I wanted to analyze them and let's fix them. 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:19.000 Right. 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:21.000 That's kind of hard to do (laughs). 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:28.000 Yeah. Right. Were you involved at all in that decision to sell the family business? 00:16:28.000 --> 00:17:36.000 Yeah, it was hard because, you know, the older generation who passed away, my cousin and I were running it, we--each of us had a sister who were not involved. And it's hard because he and I had grown up doing it. And our sisters, they weren't living locally, and they were all in favor of it. And this is very common in family businesses. You get different interests. So, but I was already in government, in the legislature, and he was frustrated and I had to say, “You're the guy there,” you know? So. But I actually think ultimately, actually, he regretted it. On the other hand, when it's a family business and you don't have people to hand it down to, and we had daughters and who--which is not a problem--but they weren't interested in it. 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:37.000 Right. 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:38.000 So. 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:49.000 Right. Gotcha. So, going back, you said you spent a year in Germany. What was that experience like for you? 00:17:49.000 --> 00:20:07.000 Pomona had a semester abroad program. And in that program--which I think is the best way to do it, but it, these programs don't exist--you lived with a family for a month, and I happened to live with a family in southern Germany, a little town, Nördlingen, a little town in Bavaria. And I lived in a family that was the age of my grandparents and their daughter and their granddaughter, who was in her early twenties and was at the university. And it turns out that they had lived through World War I, he was in World War I, but never fought, but in the military ; went through hyperinflation in Germany ; the rise of Hitler, whom he strongly opposed. And he was working in the local government of this town, and they said, “Well, if you're working here, you have to sign up to join the Nazi party.” And it almost brings tears to my eyes. He wouldn't do it. And I thought so many times, you know, it's so easy for us in this country to say, “Well, they should do this or that.” And I've often wondered, would I have had the courage? All it was was signing a paper, they weren't making him do anything. Would I really have had the courage of my conviction? But he did. And it was during the war, and so they made him--Germany had taken over Czechoslovakia, so they made him move and go to Czechoslovakia. I mean, they kind of--that was his punishment. And he was there until the very end of the war. When they came back basically on a wagon, walking, he had lost so much weight, he said people he'd grown up with didn't recognize him. 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:08.000 Wow. 00:20:08.000 --> 00:22:15.000 So, and I just really got along with them. And they had had a son who was drafted at the end of the war into the German military. He was only sixteen (years old). They were taking kids. And the last time they saw him, they argued about the war because they were against the war. They were against Hitler. And, whatever people may think, there were plenty who didn't like Hitler. And they argued and their son said, “Well, our lieutenant tells us that Führer has this new weapon and we're going to win.” He was a kid, right. Sixteen. And that was the last time they saw him. He was stationed near Berlin, and the Russians came in and, and so I think part of it was here was this young guy, I was only like nineteen or twenty (years old), and I think we got along and I think it was almost like here was their son that they lost. So we became really close. So that was my junior year. And then my senior year, my mentor--who later became famous--he had had a Fulbright, which was a scholarship, to Germany. And he said, “Mark, you should apply for this.” So I did. And lo and behold, I got it (laughs). So it was kind of a rough year. Because, again, I was graduated and I still didn't know what I wanted to do, but, so I spent the year in Germany studying German foreign policy. And that's one of the reasons I know so much about, a lot about Germany and the society and the culture and all that sort of thing. 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:34.000 Right, right. That's fascinating. Thank you for sharing that. So, it sounds like, as far as what motivated you or pushed you in the direction of politics, a lot of it sounds like it was self-interest to begin with, but I know you also mentioned that the Vietnam War had a huge influence as well. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that? 00:22:34.000 --> 00:23:39.000 It did. I was of that era, which is only probably about five or six, seven years. And they, we had the draft which they ended, I think 1973 or something like that. And I was never in the service, but it affected the whole country, families, and it affected all the young men. And that's what I, what I ended up studying and writing about, and I'm still interested in the same thing, is: how people saw the world. How do you, in international affairs, the thing that's interesting to me is everyone wants peace, peace and prosperity, all over the world. That's what people want. 00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:41.000 Yep. 00:23:41.000 --> 00:28:03.000 And how did the decisions come about to say we need to engage militarily? And I have enormous respect for all those who fought there. And there are people from Escondido whose names are not along the wall in Washington, but in the park around the state capitol, there is a monument with the names of every Californian who was killed there. It's kind of emotional. Oscar Cruz, I'd grown up with Oscar Cruz ; he's on that wall. And I've forgotten his first name. One of the Durbin boys, I didn't know him, but they were a well-known family in Escondido, the Durbins. And I think what happened was we had kind of a Cold War mentality, which was: if you--they remembered so clearly what happened, the lesson that all those people make in those policies. You had Lyndon Johnson, you had (David) Dean Rust, the Secretary of State, you had McNamara, Secretary of Defense, you had the National Security Advisor McGeorge Bundy. All of them were of the era where they had grown up in the ‘20s and then the Depression, and went from the Depression into World War II. And they knew the cost and they had lost people. And so, the lesson was the lesson of--and, I can't recall the British politician's name who earned peace in our time in Munich--and the lesson was just like, from Hitler, you have to fight them. You can't let them gain. And it's really what's playing out right now, even though it's not our people there, but in Ukraine with Russia. And I didn't think that lesson applied very well to Vietnam. But what I wrote about was Dean Rusk, who was Secretary of State, and all the different elements of his worldview. And what I think happens to people in general is you get a kind of a take on something. And pretty soon, well, that's just the way it is. You know, if I am, I could be a doctor--and, you know, there are these debates now about diets, for example, and you get--you know, these are smart, highly trained people, and they have, “Well, this is what you should eat or not eat,” or whatever it might be. And it's the same thing with solving all the problems that we have. And I worked a lot on education. “Well, this is what you do.” If you, if you want to teach, make sure English learners, and we have a lot of them in California who speak a different language at home. “If you want to make sure they learn English, this is the way you do.” And what I learned through those experiences is you can have some ideas, but take in new information and make sure that--and always be open. And in international affairs, you make decisions, but you don't know how they're going to turn out. And that's part of the interest and the tragedy of it. So, in the case of Vietnam--and I identified a dozen, maybe twenty different aspects of the worldview, how they saw things. And I don't think they really had thought it all through. 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:38.000 Right. I know in the short amount of time in getting to know you, Mark, you are extremely passionate about education. And you were a member of the California State Assembly, and you served on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board. You told me essentially that school board politics were just plain ugly. And that's putting it extremely lightly. What made school board politics just so ruthless? 00:28:38.000 --> 00:32:04.000 It was brutal. Brutal. Well, later on, when I represented half a million people in the (California State) Assembly and later on in the (State) Senate, a million people, which is more than a member of Congress, I dealt with many different school districts and cities. And what I learned about local government: they can vary greatly. You can have one city where everything is smooth. The city council, a school board, and you cross the line, and the city council and the school board are contentious. And at that point, on the Escondido Board, it was very contentious. And they had hired a new superintendent who was Hispanic. And then I think the district was probably two-thirds Hispanic. Now, it's probably at least three-quarters. And many, maybe most, came to school with either imperfect or no English. And they had hired this guy, but there was a group that opposed him. And they were organized and included some of the administrators and some of the people opposed me because I was appointed. And they thought their person was robbed. And it was very organized. And they had--it was organized politically to get rid of him. And we would have these meetings, you know, the state legislature, few people know this, but if you want to show up on a bill and you show up in the committee on the day a bill is heard, almost always, I mean, rarely it's not, they will ask, “Is there anyone else who wants to testify on this bill?” You can go right up there and testify. You can lobby all the people, send them letters, meet with them. But almost no one does it. But when it's in local government, they do. And we had some board meetings that, well, they were quite raucous. And I'll never forget one (laughs) where this--she came up and she wasn't--she had made some good points, and she had, and there's no dias. It was just same level. We're just behind the table. And she said, “I've got--you all deserve pink slips.” And she had little pink pieces of paper. And that was what you gave someone--you used to get that if you're going to get fired or laid off. And she plunked down in front of us a pink piece of paper saying, “You're fired.” You know, I can laugh about it, but it was awfully serious. And ultimately for a variety of other reasons we decided to part with that superintendent. But there were people working for the district who unfairly, I thought, suffered. And because they were seen as, you know, on the wrong side. 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:11.000 Right. Did that at least prepare you though, for the next step in your career? Which we're going to get to next as far as— 00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:12.000 No. 00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:13.000 Being elected into the Senate? 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:17.000 No, because I couldn't believe it would be like that. 00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:18.000 Gotcha. 00:32:18.000 --> 00:35:22.000 I couldn't believe. But it was. And I'll tell you one funny story which illustrates it. I had a very contentious election. And this is important: we had two newspapers. This ties right into how we solve the problem of people feeling better about the government. We had The San Diego Union Tribune, and we had the North County Times, and they were robust, and they covered--The San Diego Union Tribune had, just on the editorial side, in addition to reporters, had a full-time editorial guy covering North County. And the North County Times did a great job. They covered school board meetings. They would editorialize about when we had these contentions about the school board. They had columnists who wrote about the school board. And people read the paper and they got a lot of information. And that's unfortunately no longer the case. So, what I--I had been very interested in this problem of Hispanic students learning English, because I knew their futures and the future of the state--you know, there are the immigration debates--but the fact is they were here. And I knew that their future and the future of the state depended upon them acculturating and being able to get good jobs, et cetera. So, I thought, “This can't be that hard.” And I thought--it's very naïve--I thought, “Escondido can be a model for the whole state.” Because it's small enough we can fix this. And that's kind of the business guy’s approach. Here's a problem, we need to jump in there and fix it. And it turns out in education, there are all these ideologies about how you teach reading and how you teach math. The business approach, which is, I think most people’s, is more pragmatic: I don't care. Let's just see what works. Well, it turned out, with all this contention, it was really hard. And I thought, and these mandatory tests were coming down from the state--which I thought were actually helpful--and I thought, “That's the place to fix this.” And that race was also brutal, that first race. But I don't need to, unless you want to, to get into it (laughs). 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:24.000 (laughs) It's up to you. 00:35:24.000 --> 00:40:12.000 Well, I--you know, I ended up leaving graduate school with a master's and not going back for the PhD, but I think I got a PhD in practical politics. I was pretty naive. You know what, I'll tell you a little bit about that race, a little about that first year, and then maybe we can pause and figure out where you want to go next. I never--first of all, it was a primary. Primary of 2000 and the primary of 2000--and I was a Republican who had been a Democrat. And again, it was pragmatism. I just ended up agreeing with more of the Republican policies and fewer of the Democratic. But it was always pragmatic. What's the best answer to the problem? So, in that time--it's not the same now--but in that time, North County, and that's the district is, oh, 450--475,000 people. A congressional (district) then was around, I think 700,000 just to give--and a state senate (district) was just short of a million. And it was most of North County, big chunk of North County. And it was very conservative. So, whoever won the Republican primary was probably going to win the general election. So, I ended up starting out with a--I got some help to do this. You have to get help, really. And through that--consultant is what they call them. I ended up hiring a campaign manager who turned out to be a crook, a straight up crook! But he hadn't vetted him enough. So (laughs), so then, we--and there were seven or eight people in the race, which actually makes it easier because all you need is a plurality, not a majority. So, I ended up--that consultant, we parted ways and I got a very capable consultant. Some states just have a campaign manager--I had a consultant and a manager--and they design the race. And a key part of it is communication by mail. When you see TV ads, that's really expensive, and only a few campaigns have the money to do that. Same thing with radio. And in that era radio was going strong. So, you had radio, TV, ads, and mail. And so we were going along with issues that we thought were helpful. One's kind of a profile where you introduced the person. I was still reasonably well known in Escondido. They were still old guard. My family had been there forever. And I was at that point, president of the school board. And then, the then-assemblyman who was termed out, he didn't want me. He liked control. And he had picked someone that he thought he could control. So he was against me, which is hard because he raised money from lobbyists to go against me. And he discovered that when I was a Democrat, I had given money to Democrats. I'd given money to Al Gore in 1988. Well, in a primary you get the most intense voters. So having given money to Al Gore, to a good loyal Republican would be like in a Democratic race, having given money to Trump or Bush when they want Obama, it's like (Willis laughs) this can't work! 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:13.000 Yeah. 00:40:13.000 --> 00:41:44.000 And you can't explain in a short campaign, you can't--the explanation was at that point--and I still believe now, you need two strong parties, which are reasonable. Well, Al Gore in 1988, I thought was pretty reasonable. I was a Republican, but I also wanted a reasonable Democrat. And he was running as a moderate Southern Democrat (laughs). Well, you can't explain that to people because it's ten, twelve years later. And by then he had changed. So anyway, it cut down my margin and I managed to squeak out a victory. Only because they--if they'd had more money, and money does play, people hate it, but it's like marketing. It's like, if you represent Coca-Cola and I've got “New Great Coke,” and you have a million dollars of marketing and name ID, and everyone likes Coke, and I've got a little amount to say, “Hey, this new stuff is really good,” it doesn't matter. And so they didn't have enough, and I squeaked it out. I think I got less than twenty percent of the vote. 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:45.000 Oh, wow. 00:41:45.000 --> 00:42:02.000 I barely made it. And there was another guy on that race who was the mayor of Encinitas, Jim Bond. And he was on the ballot as James Bond. And the James Bond movie had just come out like few months before. 00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:04.000 Oh man. 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:09.000 (laughs) And I, so I just barely squeaked it out. 00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:10.000 Gotcha. 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:22.000 And I was not prepared. It was intensely political, more than I expected, but I wasn't really prepared for it. 00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:40.000 That's fascinating. So as far as the Senate, you represented District 38 from 2006 to 2014. Is that correct? (Wyland nods) So what was that moment like when you got into the Senate? Do you remember how you felt? 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:44.000 Well, yeah. Let me give you, let me go back a little bit. 00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:45.000 Yeah. 00:42:45.000 --> 00:49:26.000 Because I could talk about growing up in Escondido in that era for a long time, but we've got hundreds, if not thousands of my era, who can tell you that story. This is what's a little different. So, when I got to the Assembly, a friend of mine in the Assembly, but he had been there, I was new--later, a friend of mine in the Senate (Tony Strickland), now the Mayor of Huntington Beach, he came to meet me and we, he tells this story, which is true, and he said, “Well, Mark, what are your interests?” And I said, “Education.” And he kind of chuckled and said, “Well, what about education?” And I said, well, I say it was a five-point plan. He says, it was like a ten-point plan that I said, “I've got this plan.” And he started to laugh and he said, “You don't understand. Education is controlled by the Teacher's Union. And whatever they say goes.” And I did say “Yes, but they haven't seen the power of my ideas.” I used that phrase, “The power of my ideas.” Where upon Tony, Tony Strickland, he just started rolling on the floor laughing because he realized I had no idea how it worked. And what I learned was, local government is very different. Once you get in state government, it's just like, organized like Congress. There's parties, there's caucuses, legislative committees, floor--it's set up like that. And I always thought, you know, I'd been a Democrat. Everyone wants the same thing. Good jobs. Well, it--there are party differences. Not everything. Maybe half of the bills pass, everyone votes, which people don't understand enough of. It's not people like that all the time. You have to work together in the same building. But I did find it was much more partisan than I had expected. You know, “Our interest group says this, so that's how we're voting. Our interest group says this, so that's how we're voting.” So much so. It's a two-year session in the Assembly. So I ran in 2000, served in 2001, came back for my second year in 2002. And I'll never forget going into the basement of the building and then getting in the elevator to go up to my office. And my heart literally sank. It's a sensation I had never had. And I thought, “I hate this. I cannot keep doing this. I worked so hard to get this. I just hate this.” We aren't trying to solve problems. It's just the partisan--and some people in these bodies are very--there's a range of partisanship. Some are very partisan, some (unintelligible), but what happened that year is I happened to have a chief of staff who really understood politics and how politics works. And he also was, he'd probably deny it, but he was an amateur historian and they didn't have kids yet. And we would spend probably an hour, hour and a half, after work every night talking about history and Vietnam and all these things. And I learned about politics and got more engaged in politics, because I was ready to quit. So that's how that happened. And then in 2006, the Senator who had held that seat, Bill Morrow, he was retiring because of term limits. But before then, around 2005, there was a congressman here, Duke Cunningham, Randy “Duke” Cunningham, North County. And this is uncommon. I know a lot of people think it's common, it's uncommon: he was fraudulently selling his vote. He was on a relevant committee, appropriations for defense. And he had a contractor that basically, “If you give me this much money, I'll make sure you get this contract.” And I really want to emphasize as much as people think, “Oh, it's all about money, they're crooked.” No, they really aren't. And long and short of it is he was forced out. And a lot of people were saying, “Well, you need to run for that seat.” Which many people have told me, I would've pretty much walked into. But it was an identity crisis, a midlife crisis, because we'd sold our business. And I thought, “Well, if I don't win, what am I going to do?” And plus, my interest in education, that's really a state issue. They will talk about education at the federal level. The reality is the federal government has very little to do with education. It's primarily local and state. Long and short of that is I decided to stay with the state. And you know, sometimes gone back--think well, I should have done that. But I stayed with the state, and I walked into the seat because my potential opponents were running for the congressional seat. So, I walked in. 00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:28.000 Yeah. 00:49:28.000 --> 00:51:08.000 And the Senate is different from the Assembly, just like the United States Senate is different from Congress. But it took me a little adjustment because there's a new group of people. But there's only forty. So the United States Senate is a hundred, and you really get to know those people. So I continued, I worked on a lot of different things, but education was a key part. And then it's four years. So the reelect was 2010, and I almost quit then. I only told my family, I didn't tell anyone else because if you say you're leaving, it's--you're a lame duck. It's a mad rush. And I just thought, it's so hard to get--so hard to make this better. And I had, and we can talk about them, things I worked on. And it's, to me, they were so obvious. And it's not because of malice or anything, it's just change, even positive change, it's just hard to get people--especially if it's different than what they're accustomed to. But ultimately, I did run again and so I stayed there until 2014. 00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:13.000 Right. And then you hit, you had hit your term limit at 2014, correct? 00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:14.000 Right. 00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:20.000 If you had the ability to continue on, would you have or would you have gone now regardless? 00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:40.000 That's a really good question. I think I might've done one more term. I think, well, I'm idealistic and you read what the Senate leader said about me. 00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:41.000 Yes. I wanted to get to that. 00:51:41.000 --> 00:52:56.000 I keep thinking there's got to be a way, (both laugh) you know, there's just got to be a way. So, I might've done one more term. I think something that's very common with people of my age. So, I'm seventy-six now, and we think of retirement depending somewhere in the sixties. It can be early or young sixties or later. But from my friends, I would say a significant percentage want to keep working. Maybe they'd (work) not as much or as intensely, but there's kind of a desire to contribute. And I'm still on a--I'm emeritus now--but I ended up along that period of time being involved with Pomona, the alumni group, and then the Pomona Board. And I'm emeritus now, and they allow me to attend meetings and talk. So, I would like to have done more. 00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:04.000 Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I could tell you had that ambition, even when you thought about quitting, you were like, “No, there's more to be done. I know I can make a difference.” 00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:33.000 Yeah. And one of the things, I worked on a--I worked on a lot of things in education, but because of that time in Germany and Europe, I really--no system is perfect, but Americans don't know enough about how Europeans do things. And it's frustrating when people kind of knock Europe. They're our cousins (laughs). 00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:34.000 Yeah. 00:53:34.000 --> 00:54:57.000 We, you know, our society and culture and our government to some extent comes from that tradition. And I think it's important, not necessarily to copy, but well, how do they do this? Well, how do they do this? And in education it's not perfect, but they have one system that works really well, and that's apprenticeships. I worked on that. And there are misconceptions about that. And Americans, Americans will say things like, “Well, yeah, you know, plumbers make a lot of money.” And by the way, my grandfather was a plumber. That was his first business. So, I'm a--you know, I worked with those folks when I was in the lumber business and I did that work when I was--but apprenticeships are everything! Everything. Bankers are--start off as apprentices, realtors, insurance people, people managing resorts. Probably eighty, eighty-five percent of the jobs are various types of apprenticeships. And they give you training. And then if you have a facility and you're pretty good at, they give you more training. And the sky's the limit. And for a lot of reasons I thought we needed to develop more of that. 00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:21.000 Yeah, I completely agree. I know we discussed that in our pre-interview, how the United States is pretty much completely different than all the other countries out there. They have that focus of, “Hey, let's do an apprenticeship.” We have vocational schools. Of course we do have vocational schools here in the U.S. but we don't seem to put as much emphasis on them. Why do you think that is? 00:55:21.000 --> 00:58:12.000 Well, I'll tell you what the history is. First, Europe. Europe, starting in the Middle Ages developed guilds. Weavers, obviously technology moved beyond the people who wove, did weaving of cloth. And there was a great deal of respect. So, if someone was skilled at this ; a goldsmith, a baker, whatever it was, there was appreciation for that skill. And once the university got started, and they had medieval, you know, first in the early Dark Ages, it was in the monasteries. But then when universities got started, they were very old. But the modern university came out of Germany. They didn't have science and engineering. That was not common. It's all, it all started in Germany. Even in things like theology and archeology and all those things. And the same thing with all these various other jobs. And they were accustomed to, if you have a certificate, you really--there's a lot of respect. I think what happened in America, I mean it's a longer story, but the short of it is we had those, and we had in California, all the high schools were known as comprehensive high schools. So you didn't have a separate vocational school. So every high school--it was same at Escondido, same for all the high schools--you had a whole range. You had courses for people who were for sure going to go to college, those who weren't sure, and a lot of vocational courses. But there was not, it was sort of like, well, college somehow is like the ideal. But those vocational courses were great because there were a lot of great boys, and boys in particular, who didn't want to sit there and listen to a teacher talk all--they wanted to do things. And we had many agricultural classes, we had--before computer aided design, you could take four years of drafting. You had machine shop, you had auto shop. Well, it's not like they became auto mechanics. They learned practical engineering. 00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:13.000 Yeah. 00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:29.000 I mean, in auto shop they learned how machinery works. They learned a lot of physics. They learned the chemistry of combined--they learned all those things. And so, they could sit through the boring class because they had their cool project they were working on. 00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:32.000 Yeah. 00:58:32.000 --> 00:59:27.000 I think it was unintentional but misguided that they dismantled that because it was driven by misguided administrators who thought, “Well we need to just, it needs to be all college.” College doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. They will use the word, they don't have it. It's an American invention. And they don't understand it. And even in some cases, like in Spanish, there's “colegio,” which it translated to college. It's not, it's more like a high school. And in Germany, if you use the word “high school,” which in German is “Schule” (technische Schule), we think high school, “Schule” is like a technical university. It's called a technical high school. 00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:28.000 I see. 00:59:28.000 --> 01:00:27.000 And so, there's all this misunderstanding. But what we did was, the message became for those young people who weren't academically inclined--but are very capable and smart--the message was, “Well, unless you want to do this college thing, you know, you're not really, yeah, it's not so great, you know, if you have to do that.” That's so completely misguided. And so you get right here at San Marcos High School down the road--I drove by today because of this traffic mess--I had a buddy who was the soccer coach there, and he told me one day, he said a bunch of his kids came to him and said, “Coach, they're closing the machine shop.” And the kids said, “We only come to school to play soccer and for machine shop.” 01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:28.000 Yeah. 01:00:28.000 --> 01:01:17.000 There's a lot of great healthy--it applies to girls and women too, but in a different way--healthy boys who--they, just, they're not the academically inclined. But to give you an illustration with machinery--and I've been in the factory in Switzerland where they make high-end machinery--you can start out as a machinist and end up as a mechanical engineer. And they train you and they train you. And so, I think the combination of this misguided notion that everyone has to go to college, we end up where we are. 01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:18.000 Right. 01:01:18.000 --> 01:02:44.000 And then we end up with a problem of how do you finance it? The biggest debt we have in this country outside of home mortgages, it's not auto loans, it's not credit card. It's student loans! It's over a trillion dollars. Yesterday the brother of my niece's husband, I may have been telling you, he's moved out here. He's a chiropractor. He has an outrageous student loans. That doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. They have this, the system is stripped down. But if he were in one of those other--let's just take the European countries--he might have a small loan, but it'd be very small. And it's not just higher taxes, it's because the system is different. So I did lots of work and lots of bills. You know, you have to take a slice of it. So, one of them, for example, was that every school district had to have a council that advises them and builds connections between various industries and the kids. So, that's my pitch. And if you survey Americans, they agree. 01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:47.000 Right. 01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:55.000 But it's really hard to make those changes in the school. 01:02:55.000 --> 01:03:09.000 We're forcing a lot of these kids to just have to figure it out on their own. Because a lot of them, when they're going through the K-12 system, they're like, “Well, this isn't for me. I already know this.” But especially once you get to high school, it's all about college prep, college prep. 01:03:09.000 --> 01:03:10.000 Right. 01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:12.000 Taking these tests. 01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:13.000 Right. 01:03:13.000 --> 01:03:22.000 And I know for me, when I was going through high school, that was demoralizing because I was never a good test taker to begin with. I was never good at math. 01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:23.000 Right. 01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:24.000 Never good at science. 01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:25.000 Right. 01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:28.000 And they put so much emphasis on these tests. 01:03:28.000 --> 01:03:29.000 Right. 01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:31.000 And if you don't do well on them, you feel like a failure. 01:03:31.000 --> 01:03:32.000 Exactly. 01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:34.000 And you’re not smart. And that’s not true. 01:03:34.000 --> 01:06:21.000 That's what I'm talking about. And you know, I don't want to leave the young women out. And women probably understand that better. And I'll give you an example though with young women, two of them. But I think with boys in particular, I'm going to start saying controversial stuff (Willis laughs). I think boys are wired to go out and do stuff. They're just like, solve a problem. you know, hunt, you know, (laughs) just, and I think I was lucky because I was--things came easily enough to me. A lot of school I didn't like. But it came easily enough that just like with German, it came easy, so it wasn't that hard. But, and so that's the problem. It's demoralizing. And they wonder why there's such a dropout rate. And they--why the use of drugs and all this stuff is a--particularly younger males. You need to be validated, like you're making a contribution. And in these other countries, they have that. Now, one of the things that a lot of Americans don't like, they think, well then you're at a young age, you don't know what you want to do. And you're plugged into something. It's not that simple. I'll give you an example. Young woman who's trained and you start fifteen, sixteen, where you're going to school three days a week and then three afternoons a week and two full days as an example, you're in the business. So, she was trained in an auto dealership. First off, you're paid. So, you're sixteen. It's not a lot of money, but you're paid for that. And you learn all these skills. A lot of older people might say, “Wow, they don't even know how to answer the phone.” You learn all those skills. You learn how to write a business letter. You learn if the manufacturer sends a letter about a defect or something, you learn how to understand it, how to respond. You learn the economics of it. Well, our salesman paid a commission. How does that work? Inventory. How do we do that? By the time she's nineteen, she's ready to go. She understands that business backwards and forwards. But she doesn't have to say, “Well, my career, the rest of my life is doing that.” She's got all kinds of skill sets that you can go all sorts of places. 01:06:21.000 --> 01:06:22.000 Exactly. 01:06:22.000 --> 01:08:01.000 Nursing, I worked hard on nursing. We have so many--mostly young women, a few young men--who would be great in every aspect of healthcare. And what do we do? All we do is make it hard. All we do is make it hard. And we made it worse. It used to be in an earlier era, nursing schools were affiliated with hospitals. And it was a combination of hands-on and classroom. So, if you applied to nursing school, and they had dormitories, you know, it's after a high school and a combined, classroom and clinical. So, you know, after six months, if you couldn't stand the sight of blood, you learned that and you didn't have to continue. And you're working all the time in a clinical setting. Plus learning the science. Well then we decided we have to upgrade it--has to more time in the classroom. Well, here's what happens. Whether it's at Palomar (College), and CSUSM’s (California State University, San Marcos) doing a pretty good job, I will guarantee you the freshman class comes in and there will be many times more kids who want to go into that. Well, we don't have the slots. And in those other countries, you can get that slot and you can be the most sophisticated OR nurse and you've done this and you can do it. And then you, if you want to, you move up. If you don't want to, you go into something else. 01:08:01.000 --> 01:08:02.000 Right. 01:08:02.000 --> 01:08:14.000 So, the part of the reason I'm so passionate about it is it's horrible to see these young people discouraged or demoralized. We need them (laughs). 01:08:14.000 --> 01:08:16.000 Right. That's our future. 01:08:16.000 --> 01:10:31.000 And, and I totally understand why young women will come from training in another country. I totally get it. They get here, it's their lives go up. But what about our young women? And some of them are coming from difficult backgrounds and all they need is some assistance. A little more time. And they'll be great. And instead, you talk about spending money? Two friends of mine had wives who were nurses. Each of them went to the four-year undergraduate (school). Liberal arts. It's got its place. I'm a beneficiary of it. It's got its place. But then after that, and all the money, money society spent, money they spent, loans. Then they have all this intense nursing training, and then we don't have enough opportunities. So, and one of my doctors--you get to my age, you're in doctor's offices all the time and--meet this young man. He wants to be a PA, physician's assistant. Well, guess what? There are only a few programs, one's at UC Davis (University of California, Davis). I know that, because buddy of mine was a professor there. Why don't we have that? Every state school should have that! Because the people who are going to be treating people more and more are going to be physician's assistants and nurse practitioners. And let's talk about doctors. We're--there's now a shortage around here. Because there's a lot more of us in my baby boomer era. What's the limit? The limit is why--you tell me why the University of California, you can get a PhD. I don't mean to pick on them (Willis laughs). I love the UC, but why do we really want an administration that's practically as big as the student body? And I read the other day, Stanford's administration has more people than they do students. 01:10:31.000 --> 01:10:32.000 Oh, wow. 01:10:32.000 --> 01:11:55.000 And all the data show these administrations keep growing. And how come we don't have expanded medical schools? In 20--I think it was 2010 or 2012, we had a new senator from Riverside. And I was talking to him and I said, “What are you interested in?” He said, “My number one goal is to expand the medical school at UC Riverside (University of California, Riverside).” And it was kind of the reverse of what my friend Tony had done years before I chuckled and said, “That's not going to happen.” “Well, we need it.” I said, “You're right. And I will help you. And I'm on the budget subcommittee for education. I'm on the education committee, I will help you. But you just need to understand, when you come across that huge bureaucracy and you say, “Does every campus have to be able to grant a PhD in medieval French literature at every campus? Or should we expand the medical school?” And maybe we give them an incentive. If they agree to work in underserved communities for a few years, why don't we make it free? It should be free. 01:11:55.000 --> 01:11:56.000 Yes. 01:11:56.000 --> 01:12:07.000 Why shouldn't they be graduating and saying, you know, “I love family practice, but I'm going to make a lot more money doing this.” It's crazy. 01:12:07.000 --> 01:12:09.000 Yeah. No, I'm right there with you. 01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:10.000 I'm sorry, Ryan. I get wound up. 01:12:10.000 --> 01:12:11.000 No (laughs). 01:12:11.000 --> 01:12:12.000 It brings it all back. 01:12:12.000 --> 01:12:58.000 No, it's a great conversation. I feel like we could talk about it for hours, but I did want to go back to your time in the Senate, near the end, in particular, when you had to retire. I want to talk about something a little bit more positive. Senator Darrell Steinberg, who I know you have a lot of respect for, he was quoted in saying, “Senator Wyland, I see you as the Republican romantic. You are somebody who constantly strives to make the world what it should be instead of what it is. You are a special member of the Senate, partly because you are unique.” How does that quote make you feel, first off? And in your opinion, what made you unique? 01:12:58.000 --> 01:14:00.000 Well, first of all, some Republicans say, “What do you mean, he is a Democrat!” Look, I have a lot of respect for Darrell. And in some ways you get to know people better even than their friends and family do. Because he really knew me. He'd seen me, you're working together all the time. We'd gone on a trip to Switzerland and Germany to look at these programs. And so I think it's one of the nicest compliments. There were some others in those tributes I really appreciated because I think he did understand. And I plead guilty. He's right. I can't--I'm pragmatic, but I can't, just can't say, “Well, that's the way it is. We can't fix it.” I keep thinking, “You know, we got to--we can make this better (laughs).” 01:14:00.000 --> 01:14:01.000 Yeah. 01:14:01.000 --> 01:16:09.000 So, it made me--it first of all blew me away because every year when people retire, it's every election year, there's tributes. There's only few retiring, and there's a session where people speak about the member. And I was totally unprepared. From all the comments, I just, I was completely unprepared. So, it was a wonderful compliment. The downside of it is, and it's same thing in that column that Dan Walters wrote, well, that's great, but how do you make progress? (Both laugh) You know, it's--progress is tough and it's not--when I talk about these things, I'm optimistic. I do see the glass as half full. It's kind of a--I have a pretty high standard, and I think we just have to keep working at these things. And something that's really important. People are so cynical about politicians: it's not that easy. And at some point I would like to talk a little bit about my project because the biggest challenge is people know less. And so when they know less, it's harder to hold government accountable. And it's not their fault. I have friends who say, “Well, they're just lazy. They could find it on the internet.” It's really hard. It needs to be easy to understand how well you're being governed. But I'll tell you that and some of those other comments, especially from the other side, the other side, the other party, were--I really appreciate it. 01:16:09.000 --> 01:16:26.000 Yeah, I imagine. So that kind of is a great segue onto the next thing I wanted to address, which is something you mentioned to me is that the general public does not understand politics the way that they should. Can you elaborate on that? 01:16:26.000 --> 01:23:42.000 Yeah, Ryan, there's a lot of research that would illustrate this better. But my--here's my direct experience. When I first ran in 2000 and for several years after that, most people got a print newspaper. It wasn't that expensive. And most people when they established a household or got in their twenties or mid-twenties, got a paper. And the papers did a good job at reporting on what government was doing. And most of the reporting was fairly, I would say, fairly objective. They had different editorial policies. You know, one may be more conservative, one more liberal, but even then, that was within a group. And I say this as a guy started reading The New York Times when I lived in New York, so I'm kind of a newspaper addict. And the North County Times would publish probably--they'd have two pages full of letters. So, people felt they could weigh in and people would read the letters and respond. And for a whole bunch of reasons, the economics change, the advent of the internet and social media, less advertising, newspapers are dying. The North County Times (is) no more. So, the entire big chunk of North County is--there's some coverage and they try in The Coast News. And there's some--a little bit in the Solana Beach, maybe a little bit North, Encinitas-Del Mar area. But if you're living in San Marcos or Escondido, it's a news desert. How do you know when it comes time to vote for a city council person or a school board person, or a Palomar College trustee? How do you know? And so, I think the way to change this and to change some of the anger that we have and the demonization where our side's good, the other side's evil--and you know, I'm a Republican, but I see this on both sides. And they'll take the most outrageous person on the other side. And all the outrageous things they say, well, look like if you take Congress, and we'd be the same thing if they cover the state. That's a lot of people. There's always going to be some people who (laughs) you know, who will say outrageous things, some of them purposely because of the coverage. So, I think the solution of my project, I call it civic knowledge, it could be civic information, it could be any name is--I want a way for someone, and it has to be partly on the internet to say, “How much are we spending in the state? I read there's a twenty-five-billion-dollar deficit. Where's the money going? Where'd it come from?” And it becomes so common as you as like googling. And there it is. Historically, easy. It's not that complicated with pie charts and color. Holy cow. I had no idea that half of the money we're spending on is education. And by the way, are we measuring--are these kids learning to read? What skills do they have? How come thirty years ago we spent a huge amount on transportation and now we're not spending any? No wonder we have all these poorly maintained roads. I think it just--here's a national one. The whole issue of Social Security and Medicare, everyone who knows this, which is—knows, which is every member of Congress, all the staff, all the experts, the average people know that it has to be fixed because the--we're not generating enough money. We're paying out more in social security to me and my generation than we're taking in. Well, there's extra there, but it's diminishing as more and more people get older. There aren't enough people of your age who are chipping in. And by the way, they may send you something, but the money you send in is not going to Ryan Willis in his account. They keep track of it, because you will get it. The idea you will get it. But it's going to Mark Wyland and his buddies who are retired. So the reason, the underlying reason I think it doesn't get fixed is it's too tempting. If you and I are running and I say--you say, “Hey, we got to fix this. Look at my generation. I deserve it. I've been chipping in, my employer's chipping in, we got to fix this, got to reform it.” But the people don't understand we need to. My temptation, it's human: man, if I say, “Ryan wants to take away Medicare and take away Social Security and make you after retire at seventy-five (years old), I can win.” And so that's where we are. So no one touches it. And so, what my project is, everyone won't do this, but if enough people learn it (Social Security) has to be fixed, then instead of letting me get away with that and demonizing you, it's like, “Hey, Wyland, at least Ryan knows there's a problem. And he's talking about solutions. What's yours? Just rather than attacking him because you're pretending like there isn't one.” You see what I'm saying? What I'm trying to do is something I've wanted to do for forty years, which is change the nature of politics where enough people, it doesn't have to be everyone, just enough people, ten, fifteen percent, twenty, wonderful. Who know enough that pretty soon, instead of just these attacks, it's “Okay, here's the problem. What's your solution?” 01:23:42.000 --> 01:23:44.000 Yeah. 01:23:44.000 --> 01:23:46.000 You see what I'm saying? 01:23:46.000 --> 01:23:51.000 Right. I know you said that your mission really is obtaining better quality government. 01:23:51.000 --> 01:23:52.000 Yeah. 01:23:52.000 --> 01:23:55.000 And how do you do that? People need to be more informed. 01:23:55.000 --> 01:24:57.000 And it's the people that can hold them accountable. Because--look, I was a Republican. I am a Republican, but, and it's generally, and I have most of my oldest friends are Democrats, we need to get rid of this stuff (mashes fingers towards each other, indicating conflict). It's like, how do we solve this problem? And I'm more interested in, at the end of the day, not just, I may think, “Well, this is the best solution,” but I'm more interested in the gift I would like to give is let's have a discussion where we actually understand what the issues are. And you know what, I may say Social Security is better if you make--if people have to work another couple of years and you may say, “No, we should do this, or tax--the company has to pay more.” I don't care about that part as much as, “Hey, we're talking about how we solve it.” 01:24:57.000 --> 01:24:58.000 The discussion. 01:24:58.000 --> 01:25:46.000 And that's how you get better government. Sadly, the newspapers used to help us. They don't. TV's a joke. Boy, I'm starting to say things I might regret (Willis laughs). Look, I get local TV news, I understand it's a business. It gets worse and worse and worse. If you even have the first segment as real news, you're lucky. And all of them used to have reporters who knew government. Same thing with--I'll say this about the UT (The San Diego Union Tribune) and I know some of those people--they don't have enough reporters who actually understand government and as it declines and declines, and then they say, “Well, we're about this. We're about focusing on this group.” 01:25:46.000 --> 01:25:47.000 Yeah. 01:25:47.000 --> 01:26:51.000 I heard one of their key people there, I just could hardly believe it, say, “Well, we want to write stories about, you know, instead of old white men, we're going to focus on what this group or that group or my group.” And I'm thinking, tell me who doesn't want a good job, a good education for their family, a reasonably safe environment, who doesn't want to sit in traffic?” I mean, everyone has the same thing. Everyone wants healthcare. Some people have a bigger problem than others. We need to work on it. It's like (laughs)--and they don't know that. And they will write these endless stories about--that avoid--and because solving the problems is where it gets hard. That's where the hard work is. And that's where you realize, “Gosh, it's not as simple as I thought.” 01:26:51.000 --> 01:26:58.000 But with your project you feel like it can explain it to people and give them a platform. 01:26:58.000 --> 01:27:49.000 I can give you succinctly--we don't think twice about googling, right? And a friend of mine had this experience just recently-- I've been talking to, because I'm trying to get the fund(ing)--I actually have a nonprofit I set up years ago: the Institute for Civic Education. And you could do it as a nonprofit or you could even do it, you could sell it to libraries and things like that for research. It's not that hard. If you--people who are informed, educated, if you say, “Well, you know, there's these fights about defense and Social Security. Well, where do they spend the money?” They don't know. 01:27:49.000 --> 01:27:50.000 Yeah. 01:27:50.000 --> 01:29:51.000 I was talking to a friend of mine, highly educated guy, retired now, when I lived in New York, he was a pretty big-time business guy. And we're--but he's lifelong Democrat. But we, you know, we didn't used to have those divisions, you would joke, you'd kid, “Ah, you know, he is a right-wing, crazy, ah—" you like, it didn't matter (laughs). And I'm trying to get, we need to come together as a country. And I remember he said, “You know, I've lived in New York for forty years. I couldn't tell you,” I--he gets The New York Times every day. Maybe The Wall Street Journal. He said, “I couldn't tell you where the money is spent.” It's that simple. And they've got major problems. Look at the billions we're spending on the bullet train. I know trains, I knew more about that than anyone in that entire building, the legislature. Because I'd lived in New York and I'd taken it every day and I'd lived in Europe. And there's only a few places where they make sense here. In some places. So, because we no longer have the newspapers, I think if we get this information out there, you can market it, not necessarily for money, but--and pretty soon it's in social media, and instead of someone saying, “well google it” Hey, check out Civic Knowledge, check out Civic Information on that. We're debating this or that. Check it out. Who--and it has to be objective, it cannot be partisan. And it has to include solutions across the political spectrum in their own words. We were talking just before we started about an interview on 60 Minutes, which is what this would not be, where it was clear the intent was to do what I call “gotcha journalism.” 01:29:51.000 --> 01:29:52.000 Yeah. 01:29:52.000 --> 01:30:34.000 “I'm going to come up with a question that's going to make you sweat and everyone's going to see, you know, how horrible you are.” No. They need to, in their own words, they need to be exposed to the solution. I guarantee you what people will see is, it's harder than they thought. And it's a kind of a way of maturity when you become an adult and you realize--and people tend to be more pragmatic and let's see if we can move the ball forward. 01:30:34.000 --> 01:30:53.000 Yeah. No, definitely. So, along those lines, looking at politics today, I know you've expressed to me that one of the core issues, I mean, I know there's a lot, but one of the core issues with voters, and it's been problematic for decades, is not knowing who they're even really voting for. 01:30:53.000 --> 01:30:54.000 Right. 01:30:54.000 --> 01:30:55.000 Who are these people? 01:30:55.000 --> 01:30:56.000 Right. 01:30:56.000 --> 01:31:02.000 And many voters either don't do their due diligence or they don't really know where to start. 01:31:02.000 --> 01:31:03.000 Right. 01:31:03.000 --> 01:31:09.000 When it comes to researching these people and they really just go off of endorsements. 01:31:09.000 --> 01:31:10.000 Right. 01:31:10.000 --> 01:31:13.000 And relying on their own emotions essentially. 01:31:13.000 --> 01:31:15.000 Right. Exactly. 01:31:15.000 --> 01:31:17.000 I would love to hear more of your thoughts on that. 01:31:17.000 --> 01:32:22.000 Well, you nailed it, Ryan. And it's a change in a short period of time. That's what's so staggering. I mean, when I started in the early 2000s, you could get (laughs), I'm kind of an addict, but I was getting six or seven papers a day. I was getting four or five California papers. And journalists, they, and it's--their problem is it's a business. And their business went away once advertising moved to the internet and people no longer--it was no longer part of a rite of passage as you got older and formed a household, well, you get the paper--and maybe initially, and it's still true today--the guy, the first thing he's going to look at is the sports. And I know people still subscribing to the print version of the UT which is going down, who are disgusted with other parts, but they're reading the sports-- 01:32:22.000 --> 01:32:23.000 Or the comics. 01:32:23.000 --> 01:32:25.000 Or the comics (laughs). I'm a fan of the comics. 01:32:25.000 --> 01:32:26.000 Same here. 01:32:26.000 --> 01:32:27.000 I read the comics every day. 01:32:27.000 --> 01:32:28.000 Yep (laughs). 01:32:28.000 --> 01:32:29.000 Certain ones I really like. 01:32:29.000 --> 01:32:30.000 Right. 01:32:30.000 --> 01:35:10.000 And there's a lot of wisdom in the comics (laughs). And so it's an art form. So, I think that's made it harder. And I have a friend who was a pretty big-time newspaper publisher in other parts of the country. And we talk about this a lot. And I'm trying to say this is the only solution I know because when I started here, both the North County Times and the UT interviewed virtually every candidate, every candidate, if running for city council in El Cajon or Escondido or San Marcos, they interviewed you. And when I first sat down with the UT Editorial Board, it was seven or eight people and they apologized that they weren't all there. They had a separate editorial specialist on national security issues, which made sense. Here we are in the Navy town for crying out loud, the Navy and the Marines. And so, the only way I know to help change that and bring people more together is to have a simple way of seeing this. And if it's fully fleshed out, you can have a simple summary and then you can add more detail. So, if you want to know, well, how come we don't have more doctors? It's not hard. You figure out, well, they have to have residencies, who controls the number of residencies? Medicare. Medicare controls that. So, you ask your congressman, “Why don't you expand residencies for medical schools here?” Okay. You see, you can ask the governor this, and every legislator, you can't tell me. And if you saw the numbers and how big that bureaucracy is, you wouldn't believe it. You're telling me that you don't have enough room for doctors. Give me a break. Come on. The CSUs and the community colleges ; when Palomar has a three quarter a billion-dollar bond issue, and I said to them, “Aren't you going to expand your facilities for people who want to go into nursing?” “Well, you know.” Come on. I get why you're saying that, but this is something society needs. 01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:11.000 Yep. 01:35:11.000 --> 01:36:11.000 So, I said yesterday at Easter gathering, a family gathering, this came up and my sister's approach was, “Come on, people are lazy. They won't check it out.” Well, au contraire, (laughs) I think if people get accustomed to it, people check out their Google all the time. If they get used to it and it's objective, it can't be seen--so, if you portray someone's view on something: so-and-so introduced a bill to do this, if they call up and say, “Wait a minute, that you--you need to read it, that my intent is this.” I'm going to put exactly what they say. It has to be reliable. And I think it's one of the few ways out of this mess we’re in. 01:36:11.000 --> 01:36:30.000 Yeah. No, I agree. You mentioned it being objective. And I find that interesting because I know in one of the classes I have taken as a graduate student, one of the professors used to always ask, “Is it even possible to be objective?” What are your thoughts on that? 01:36:30.000 --> 01:48:04.000 You put your finger on a huge issue. And I want to think carefully before I go down this road. But I'm going to say it straight out anyway. I'm getting wound up. This ideology--and I'll say straight up, I can't stand ideology because I'm not talking about values or world views. Those are fine. But I define ideology as a rigid view. “It's only this way.” And new information bounces off. “It's this way.” And if I decide if there's some new issue, what my position is, what does my ideology say? I think it needs to be more pragmatic. And an ideology that has grown up in academia, which has had, I believe a really pernicious effect started in the 1970s in literature with postmodernism. And it used a couple of French philosophers, Jacque Derrida, and the other one escapes me. And ultimately developed--conservatives say it's Marxism and socialism. Not really. I think it took something that's real. Human beings have a history of--there are people who take advantage of others. And I think the promise of Western civilization--we need to go beyond the U.S.--is we confront things and try to fix them over time. Freedom of speech is part of it. Well, as that developed--this is my view--into all the iterations with all the terms. And it certainly happened in history. And it went from social history to, you know, critical theory and all the aspects of critical theory. And then to the deconstruction of text because--which applied to law. “Well, it doesn't really mean this because if you deconstruct it, it's yet one more example of those with power, especially white males, trying to oppress those without power.” And like with most insights, there's example--I mean, and most of this stuff that is anti-the West in anti-United States never looks at the sweep of history. I actually did a bill on this. It never looks comparatively, it never looks what happened within, oh, there's a name for it, Aboriginal groups. And with modern, whether it's anywhere in Europe, encountering less-advanced societies, it's always there. And the promise of western civilization is that we've worked hard to overcome a lot of those things and to build in tolerance. So, the problem I have with it is, it doesn't give you solutions. So I'll give one last example. Because I, you can see, I can go on. A professor I know has won many teaching awards and always liked to yank my chain. So, we're at a conference and he at a table, another professor and I am there and he comes up and says, “Well, you know, Mark, capitalism has hurt and damaged a lot more people than it's helped.” I knew what his goal is. He's read so many academic works, he's going to put me in my place because he knows this author and this author and that. But I don't rise to that bait. I said to him, his name is David. I said, “You know, David, all of us want people to do well. All of us.” There's no one who says, I want him to be poor, to struggle. But I said, “Here's the challenges.” And I just walked through the challenges, said, “What are you going to do if someone's got a good manufacturing job and China is subsidizing it so he can undercut the American company? He loses his job.” I just walked through all these challenges. Well, of course he has absolutely no idea. And he said, “Well, that's not my job. My job is to point out the problems, not the solutions.” Well, he was being so jerky about it, I said to him, I said, “Well, David, you know, that's okay for your students who become like you: an unaccountable academic. But for most people, what they do in their lives--work lives--is solve problems.” Well (laughs), he got all upset and stomped off. But my point was, that's how we can come together. That's how we can come together and respect each other more. So--and the same thing's true with ideology on the right. I mean, that happens to be, there's ideology and ideological things I've seen which are ridiculous. And I remember when I was early on up in the legislature, one of these ideologues on the right was saying, “Well, you know, we just have to be like on the budget has to be this.” And I said, “Look, I tried to sell my lumber and plywood materials to contractors who said, “Yeah, but I got a cheaper price over there.” I couldn't pound the table and say, “Well, this is a fair price.” He'll walk away. I have to figure out a way. And that's what I'm trying to achieve. I think--this is part of your history. And I think history is, if I hadn't studied IR (International Relations), I would've been a history major. It's got so much. But the only caution I would use, I think it's an important trait. Humility. Yes, you can define, you can say, “Well, one person's objectivity is another person's subjectivity.” I understand that. But it doesn't mean you don't strive for objectivity. And part of the problem of this worldview, and it's illustrated--and I'll get you this in a very important report from the Cronkite School at Arizona State--from prominent journalists ; former executive editor of the Washington Post, one of the key executives at CBS, and they quote many others, and they take it head on. They want to destroy objectivity. And they say objectivity is basically this white male point-of-view. I want to include all points of view. But you also have to have data and evidence. You can come up with the 1619 Project, which she says is a work of journalism. And you can cite evidence. And I'm not against that. But you also have to respect the evidence. Evidence is not always clear. And unlike a chemistry or a physics problem--and I thought a lot about this in the understanding politics--you can't say, “Well, the atomic weight of this molecule--" You can't do that. You have to--and so, so when I say “objective,” what I mean is I'm happy to have the standard that people of goodwill would say, this meets the standard, and that's where the solution part comes in. I don't care whether, I mean, it's not the crazy stuff, but I mean, you can go on the left with Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, less say, AOC (Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez), because she doesn't know as much but her as well. And you can go with whoever it is on, on the right. And you fully, you want their point of view out there and you want as much evidence as you can get. And if there's a disagreement about it, someone says, “Well, I think the number is this.” You put it out there. Because my goal is not, “I want this policy.” My goal is: you achieve--that's how you achieve objectivity and transparency. I would love to have the debate with any academic who says that. Now, is perfect--you know, the University of California changed a decade ago. It's--they have their own guide for research and they eliminated objectivity. The origins of this is an intellectual movement that came out of academia all those decades ago. I would never contend there is perfect objectivity. And one person can say, “My view's objective, so is the other one.” But you try to gather as much evidence, as much transparency. And the idea is you, all of us in the public who just want good governance, who doesn't want to sit in traffic because Caltrans (California Department of Transportation) can't get their act together, who work 24/7 and get that fixed. And most of us also want them to do enough maintenance and repair. So, they're prepared for a lot of water (laughs). 01:48:04.000 --> 01:48:14.000 Yeah. I know you mentioned that most people don't even know where to direct the blame when it comes to politics. 01:48:14.000 --> 01:48:15.000 Yeah. 01:48:15.000 --> 01:48:25.000 This is going to go into--I know you wanted me to ask you about some of the bills that you wrote personally, specifically an SDG&E bill (San Diego Gas & Electric). 01:48:25.000 --> 01:55:59.000 (laughs) I went after them. You know, there are a lot of them, and I'll just name two that don't have anything to do with education. My first year, and it's relevant today: (California Governor) Gray Davis in 2000, there were some blackouts, I mean straight up blackouts if we weren't, this wasn't like we've had where reduced power, straight up blackouts. People were incensed. So he panicked. And when people are upset, they tend to take it out on whoever's in the office. So, the first year we spent an enormous amount of time, special sessions, trying to understand what happened. And it had to do just like now with the price of natural gas. And the reality, most people don't know, and it's shameful right now that UT and the others don't seem to understand it: these utilities, and there's three major ones, are private companies regulated by government, which is the Public Utilities Commission. What SDG&E was committed, in our case, to paying for natural gas that shot up outrageously, had to be approved! They can't do that on their own. It had to be approved by the Public Utilities Commission. So what the heck are they doing? Well, the governor appoints the Public Utilities Commission. That's where you need to look at. What did they let SDG&E get away with that their cost of natural gas was so high that our bills skyrocket? And I think, Ryan, you know this, there are people who were really it through threw budgets. It really destroyed a lot of people's budgets. And so, it wasn't as bad, but what I came up with is, well, rather than have all these entities, people don't understand, let's have--it's a MUD, a Municipal Utility District. There is one in Sacramento, it's been there for years. And a Municipal Utility District, it's a non-profit. And people elect the governing board. So like, if it were in San Diego County, say five people. And I'd like to see that today, where there's direct accountability. Ryan, you're on that board, my bill's going up, what the heck is going on? Well, you're elected and you're going to respond and you're probably going to respond ahead of time. Because you know it's coming. It's not like, “Well that's SDG&E,” which really doesn't care. Why do they care? Their business decided by the Public Utilities Commission. So, you know, UT said, “Go to the meeting, get angry.” What do they care? Go to the PUC (Public Utilities Commission). What do they care? Now, if they said “Governor (laughs)!” So, what happened was, I couldn't--the utilities really had outsized interest in the committees and the legislature. So, I got help from a former--a Democrat--a former State Senator from South County, Steve Peace. He helped me. I could never have gotten that done at every turn. I managed to get it past the main first committee in Assembly. Well, the procedure is, it has to be transmitted physically. The bill has to be taken to the chamber to go to the next step. Well, they just didn't transmit it. They weren't going to. But Steve called them up and said, “Hey Mark. I had to tell them, get that bill out of there because they were just going to hold it,” which meant it would've died. And then it had to do with an interpretation of the law, which I thought I understood because I must have read it a hundred times better. And SDG&E said, “Well, our lawyers say we won't oppose this.” Besides, they didn't want to be the bad guy. Long story short, I got it pretty much overwhelmingly passed for Gray Davis to sign. And son of gun, he vetoed it. And what his spokesperson said was--here's what happened. He got so panicked. He went out because of the blackouts. He went out and made long-term contracts for natural gas. All the experts, because we had them there talking to us, testifying, all the experts said, “Whatever you do, don't do that, because we know the cycle. It's high now it's going to come down.” He panicked. So, he said, “Well, we've made all these long-term contracts, it's like per million cubic feet or whatever at like ten dollars. And now it's only five dollars. If I sign this, if I sign Wyland’s bill, they're going to have a MUD and they're going to buy all the gas cheap. And I'm stuck with all this expensive gas.” (Willis laughs) And I'll just say, give an example of one other bill, which I never had heard because it would never have passed, but it was introduced. And what it would've done is said, well, instead of considering the budget every year we're going to have a two-year budget. And the first year of every session, all we do is the budget. We don't do these hundreds--there's hundreds--there are sessions where there's 2,000 bills introduced. It becomes a bill factory and too many aren't really that important. All we'll do is the budget. And then it had the state auditor looking at every expenditure and developing a way to explain the history, the funding, the intended effect, and to devise a system to measure: is it effective? And then a recommendation. Is it really effective? We need to do more. Is it ineffective? We could get rid of it. And the idea was over time that the legislators would get really familiar. Really familiar. Because here's another little secret that shouldn't be, the single most important thing all government does is its spending, where does it get the money? How much do we pay in gas tax? Try to figure that one out and how it's changed and where does it go? Is where you get the money and where you spend it. And when you see these articles about this bill or that bill. Yeah, there are occasionally some bills that they feature. But you know, I'll bet you, I mean, my gosh, one year in education, a couple years we did over two hundred pieces of law. And I used to say, “Well, I voted on 2,000 new laws for education.” Do you think education is 2,000 laws better (both laugh). 01:55:59.000 --> 01:56:01.000 Right (laughs). 01:56:01.000 --> 01:56:35.000 So those are two things I worked on. I knew that wouldn't--you couldn't pass it because it's too big and it's too much of a change and it's too hard for people to get their arms around. To me it was no big deal because I've been used to being in business where we need to make this radical change because three months from now, we're going to be losing money big time if we don't do it. But in government, that's harder. So-- 01:56:35.000 --> 01:56:40.000 Different way of thinking for sure. 01:56:40.000 --> 01:57:23.000 It's not, it's not malicious like people saying, “I'm going to make things harder or worse.” It's just people get set in their way and they get set in their beliefs. And I was just listening to some scientists talk about nutrition science and talk about how many recommendations are made without good evidence. And we think of, “Well, science is always simple, straightforward.” Well, there's debates there too. 01:57:23.000 --> 01:57:24.000 Yeah. 01:57:24.000 --> 01:57:30.000 And, but they have studies they can debate and this, that's what I was trying to achieve. 01:57:30.000 --> 01:57:43.000 I see. Since I am part of the oral history project here at CSUSM, it would be very remiss of me if I did not ask you about your efforts in promoting oral history. I understand you wrote three bills? 01:57:43.000 --> 01:57:44.000 Three. 01:57:44.000 --> 01:57:57.000 That emphasize and encourage the use of oral history in the classroom. Why did you and still do feel so passionately about oral history? 01:57:57.000 --> 02:10:49.000 I think we need a lot more of it. We need it in the classroom. Good oral history. Mine might be too boring. They might say after ten minutes, “Okay, teacher, come on, we’ve heard enough of this guy.” I think human beings are hardwired to like stories. It can be a TV, a movie, a song. And my grandfather was a great storyteller. And as a little kid, he would tell stories about growing up in Minnesota on the farm. He was a good storyteller. And he was just really good. He would even perform and all these things. And then when I spent that semester in Germany, I learned so much from the grandfather in that family of what he had experienced. And you can't read it. And then his--another relative who later married his daughter was a great storyteller. And when you hear the stories and what happened in Nazi Germany and you hear someone say, “I was in this professor--this Jewish professor's office, and we hear all this commotion in the street and we go over the window and we see the brown shirts marching in the street.” You can read about it, but it's just not as powerful. So I became a huge believer in it. And I also was concerned that we were losing a sense of patriotism, which does not mean our country's perfect. Everything is perfect. I wave--I've never worn a flag lapel or all these things. But it means I've studied a lot of history in many different countries and societies. And unless there's some residual belief in your society, belief that we may not do things right, but there's a reservoir of goodwill, something like that ; it bodes--it doesn't bode well. And I knew you can't go out and get into these curriculum wars, you know, my book or my view, or we're going to teach the 1619 Project. We were racist in the beginning. We're--it's in our genes we always will be. Or this view that says, you know, the colonists were gods on earth, et cetera. I thought, “What about the stories?” And I thought about my parents' generation, World War II. So, I wrote a bill for to incorporate junior year taking American history, the stories of World War II veterans, and people on the home front because the country was really united. I even had a series of things I wanted them to cover. And everyone liked it. I couldn't mandate it. I couldn't say every history course has to have it. I did want it to be available. My idea was, it's available. Teachers need help. I wanted it, I didn't get there where you're teaching American history in high school and here's an oral history unit, you can use it one day, one week. It's curated. Here's essay questions, test questions, (unintelligible) the whole thing. And here's an in-service where you can learn how to do it. To make it, you know, so teachers say, “Yeah, that'll get kids interested.” The one thing though that illustrated the change, and this has to do with objectivity, it's right there. The last sentence and that they're supposed to be asked was--because I didn't say, just tell the story. I wanted them to cover certain things--what did they think about our entry to the war? Did all these sorts of things. Their opinion of the end of the war in the Pacific and the use of atomic weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Well, I knew that every single vet is going to say, “Darn right we did that. We would've lost thousands plus thousands of Japanese. We needed to end that war.” And here my own dad was getting ready to get shipped overseas. He was ready to go when they dropped the bomb and the war ended. And I also knew that so-called revisionist, Cold War history. And I don't know if you read any of that stuff, but I'd read it in graduate school. And the professor said, “Once you read this, you'll think it's utter nonsense, but it's out there and I think it's important you'd be familiar with it.” And then we went through it. And the lack of evidence and selected use of evidence you're talking about--that was subjective. And I knew that some of it at the extremes was saying, we initiated the Cold War because we dropped those bombs purposely to challenge the Soviets, to show them “You better watch out.” That's an oversimplification. And by the way, it was also racist act, just like our internment. Well, we interned, I mean, no one can deny we did all those things. But the humility of trying to understand history and other people is try to look at it from their perspective. You know? And, so it was intended to be an antidote because what I'd seen was, it's only this perspective. I tell friends of mine, I said, you ought to read because I have textbooks. I said, “you ought to read a current textbook when it covers World War II.” And because it's not that it didn't happen. We had riots in Mobile and up in Oakland at the shipyards. All those--no one denies any of that stuff, but there's more to it than that. And all the things that we knew, we knew every battle. We knew what a sacrifice, those poor marines. And we knew the debates: MacArthur convincing Roosevelt to waste all those men's lives and Filipino lives and Japanese lives invading the Philippines. The Navy clearly had the right--forget the Philippines, we can beat them with-- anyway, all those important things. And so, son of a gun, it (the bill) sails through. And I had a co-author in the Senate, great senator who could have gone on to be Mayor and Congress and all the rest of anything she wanted. And from San Diego. And we're ready to go. And it's on the Senate floor. And then it would've gone to the Governor and son of a gun in my office says, “You know, Mark, we got a call. There's a problem. You can't get it off the Senate floor.” Son of a gun. The Speaker, the then Speaker whom I liked, John Burton--he was old school, old school Democratic politician from Northern California whose brother was a member of Congress when they had that horrible thing in Central America with “Drink the Kool Aid.” Anyway, he had empowered, he didn't do it. He had a staffer who was younger and she read that thing. And the minute she read that line about dropping the bomb (waves arms as if referee), no goal. And she told my office, “You take that out and it's fine.” Now that is the reality because she was younger and she had an ideological view--in my view, in my opinion--an ideological subjective view that the use of those weapons was evidence. Total evidence. Not, “Well what's the other view? I've never actually talked to veterans, how they’d view this.” Total evidence. Because she had read--oh my gosh, one of the authors, Gabriel Coco, there were several, I used to know all of them--that that was reality. And I got it through. And then the next year I did one for Korea and Vietnam. And it was before, I think it was before Iraq, but it covered what had happened in the Middle East. Same thing. And then I did one that took me about four years, on genocide. I finally got it through my last year. And I thought it was important to understand the historical phenomenon of genocide. Not just the Holocaust. And what I said to Jewish members up there, “We, you know, we do a tribute to the Holocaust, memory of the Holocaust every year, but it's not just the Holocaust. This is human beings do this.” And I started as with oral history. So I started with the Armenian (genocide). And we have a lot of people of Armenian backgrounds in California now, as examples. Not the only ones. Armenian, the Holocaust. I used Cambodia, Rwanda, I think Somalia, maybe Bosnia as examples. And you know, it's the dark side of human history. And very importantly, I included that when students consider this, they need to consider how we can avoid these in the future because the solution part is so important. And that's the hard stuff. And I even had in there for example, “Should we be willing to deploy UN troops or American troops?” Neither of which we would do. And I just wanted them to understand, you can get wound up and a lot of people are wound up and emotional about all sorts of things, but do the hard work about solving it. And once you get in the trenches, it's harder. And so that was the idea. And because interestingly enough, the only reason it took me so long, was there is a very powerful Turkish interest group that says the Armenian genocide never happened. It's a fiction. And finally I was able to get that passed. And if you've ever heard any of those documentaries, which I'm addicted to, and you can hear like for the Holocaust, some of those films. So, you're embarked on something really important. I think the oral history is really important. And when you become a professor of this, a teacher of this, I hope you incorporate it. 02:10:49.000 --> 02:10:56.000 Definitely. I love the concept of oral history. And I wasn't even introduced to it until recently. 02:10:56.000 --> 02:10:57.000 Yeah. 02:10:57.000 --> 02:11:01.000 This is something that I would've loved in high school. 02:11:01.000 --> 02:11:02.000 Yeah. 02:11:02.000 --> 02:11:09.000 Instead of a teacher just--talk, talk talk--“This is what happened in this war. This war is what, okay, let's take a test on it.” 02:11:09.000 --> 02:11:10.000 You know-- 02:11:10.000 --> 02:11:11.000 Hearing these perspectives-- 02:11:11.000 --> 02:11:12.000 Yeah. 02:11:12.000 --> 02:11:13.000 Would've been mind-blowing. 02:11:13.000 --> 02:14:34.000 Well see my, both of my grandparents, all four of my grandparents were raised on farms. That's how you learn. We were agricultural. And you hear their stories. And all of them left because the work was never ending and really hard because they're family farms. And my grandfather was the youngest in a big farm family. And he was a good storyteller. So, I learned about the nineteenth century from those stories. His name was Bryan Swede, who was the city councilman supervisor. Well, he was named after William Jennings Bryan. And that's my middle name. Because his father was a devotee of William Jennings Bryan the Prairie populist. And he had gone to rallies as a little kid for William Jennings Bryan, where they had songs, you know, I had music, they had these political songs and how would I know this? But he explained his father--this was in Minnesota, was--some sort of official state official who, and you would know the period better, but ended up going to Colorado during that period in the early twentieth century where they had all the mine riot--the mine strikes and all that stuff. And he saw how the miners were treated, and the strike breakers. And it radicalized him to use a modern term. And he came back and he joined--he was a Wobbly, International Workers of the World (Industrial Workers of the World). Now this is a guy with not a lot of education, but you really got, you really understand what it was like when you saw--you know, you can read about strike breakers--but he went and saw the way they were being treated. So, you know, it's powerful. And if I hadn't learned all those stories in Germany, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I--you (laughs) when--and it's not only the family I lived with, but then the husband of the daughter who--and what it was like being a student with no money and eating--in Vienna when there were riots and the cops were all on horseback with sabers and all that stuff. It's like, wow. We're at the end of the war when he was an official, he was an economist he was on the train from Frankfurt to Berlin. The train is stopped--end the war. German soldiers are deserting. Stop. They go through, check everyone's ID, find Germans who they consider deserters and they spring them up right there. And you just--all these, that's--I don't--that should, that's too negative. (Willis laughs) But you really, yeah. 02:14:34.000 --> 02:14:36.000 It changes your perspective completely. 02:14:36.000 --> 02:14:37.000 Yeah. 02:14:37.000 --> 02:14:42.000 And this is going to be one of the last things for me, Mark, as we're wrapping it up here (Wyland laughs). 02:14:42.000 --> 02:14:44.000 I've done a whole-- 02:14:44.000 --> 02:14:45.000 No, this has been great. 02:14:45.000 --> 02:14:48.000 This is a dump (both laugh). 02:14:48.000 --> 02:15:01.000 I've enjoyed every minute of it, I assure you. But one thing that's really, obviously as an historian, really important to me is just knowing the truth. Like, I love learning history, but I want to know the truth. Don't give me this, you know, romantic-- 02:15:01.000 --> 02:15:02.000 Right. 02:15:02.000 --> 02:15:08.000 Romanticized version of it. And one thing I'm very passionate about is Native American history. 02:15:08.000 --> 02:15:09.000 Right. 02:15:09.000 --> 02:15:10.000 My wife is Native American. 02:15:10.000 --> 02:15:12.000 Right. 02:15:12.000 --> 02:15:21.000 We are taught as young children that, “Oh, you know, we, the Natives welcomed, you know, the white man with open arms.” 02:15:21.000 --> 02:15:22.000 Yeah. 02:15:22.000 --> 02:15:24.000 “We shared their land. We had Thanksgiving.” 02:15:24.000 --> 02:15:25.000 Right, right. 02:15:25.000 --> 02:15:28.000 We don't learn the truth about it until we're adults. 02:15:28.000 --> 02:15:29.000 Yeah. 02:15:29.000 --> 02:15:32.000 Which is incredible to me. 02:15:32.000 --> 02:21:04.000 Well, that's--you posed an interesting question. Because we know the truth. And I thought it had changed, but maybe it hadn't because when I was in high school, a long time ago, taking American history, maybe it wasn't in the textbook, but I remember the teachers saying, you know, we estimate there were this many--they didn't use Indigenous peoples--Native Americans. There are this many Native Americans. And then, you know, the--had collapsed, the Vale of Tears March (Trail of Tears). We learned that stuff. And, the history is the history, you know, the missions, we all know what happened. The missions subjugated the Mission Indians and all that stuff. So, certainly, we need to know that. I think, my gosh, now this was in college, I took a course in Latin American history. And when the Spaniards first started coming into the Americas, there was a theological debate. And the theological debate was, “Are they human? Because if they're human, we need to save them,” which meant convert them to Christianity. And the only thing I would say about that is we've come a long way. We certainly need to know it. But I think to make it complete, we need to see the changes that have been wrought. And it needs to be comparative. If you were Indio in Mexico or Latin America, you know, they'll talk with pride. And I learned in Colombia, you know, we think of it all the same. They’re all different, right? The Colombianos do not particularly like the Mexicanos. And part of it is all the Americans think, you know, they're Mexicanos and they're not the Colombianos. And they would talk about “el orgullo de ser Mexicano,” which means “they’re arrogant” and they brag about, you know, their great history of the Aztecs and the Mayans. They don't get treated very well. And I'm not doing that to cast aspersions on them. What I'm saying is, look at the Europeans in Africa and Asia and the rest of it. There's something about human beings that tends to do that. And the question is, okay, “What is the history since then? How are we solving the problems?” Now in California and other places, the advent of gaming has done a lot because all of a sudden there's a lot more money. But all the tribes--I know a ton about this, Ryan, because you can't be in the state legislature. And I was on the relevant committee. I've been--I haven't been invaluable, but I've been in almost every one of them. And they're all different. The, you know, the tribal leaders are all different, then they can change. And some are, you know--and when I went up to my sister’s, I go right by Valley View, go right by Rincon. And if I turn left, I'd--you know. But so. I think it's really important to learn the history. But not, not that there's just one lesson, but there's a lot of lessons because humans--the, however you want to think how it happens, either it's something in us, or if you're Jewish or Christian in Genesis, we're fallen, we sinned and we're driven out of Eden. We're--you're in trouble now, you know, East of Eden. And women will bear children in pain. And the next thing you know, Cain slew Abel, his brother. And it's sort of whether it's that's what happened, that's what I believe, or it's a parable, I think the challenge for all civilization is “How do we overcome these things in the right way?” Does that make sense? 02:21:04.000 --> 02:21:05.000 Yes. 02:21:05.000 --> 02:22:22.000 But you do have to learn the truth. When I was in elementary school, we learned about the sharing and all that sort of thing. But in high school, you know, we got, we got the real thing. And then what do you do? And that's why I did the thing (oral history bill) on genocide because I said, “Well, there's these groups, but you can add in lots more.” And how do you stop it? And how do you get people--see, I think that's Western, for all our sins. How do you get people--it's western civilization that is able to say, “We need to see people and accord them respect as they're like us. It's not that easy. And I also know a lot about immigration and immigration into Europe and all these other things. It gets complicated. So yeah (both laugh). Well, and you know-- 02:22:22.000 --> 02:22:23.000 It's a heavy topic. I know. 02:22:23.000 --> 02:22:24.000 Well, it's an important one. 02:22:24.000 --> 02:22:25.000 It is. 02:22:25.000 --> 02:23:02.000 And, and, and, but here's the key. And I did have a bill, which I think I did as a resolution or something. Actually, I was looking through them, so I need to find some of it. It's important to learn it in that context. How many--I had thought that, well, when Cortez landed, you know, they rode in to--they rode into to, I think it was called Mexico. I've forgotten what the Capital was with the Aztecs and the chief Aztec said, “Oh my gosh, these are gods on horses.” 02:23:02.000 --> 02:23:03.000 Montezuma. 02:23:03.000 --> 02:23:18.000 Montezuma. I don't know, you may know this. I didn't. It took them years. And what they did was they built relationships with neighboring tribes that had been subjugated by the Aztecs. 02:23:18.000 --> 02:23:19.000 Right. 02:23:19.000 --> 02:23:23.000 Who had enslaved them and taken their kids for sacrifices. 02:23:23.000 --> 02:23:26.000 So they were more than willing--“Hey I’ll help you out.” 02:23:26.000 --> 02:26:38.000 So they were more than willing. And so how do you--in a world, when I was studying international relations, they call it IR for short. And it was the Cold War. And after 1962 and the Cuban Missile Crisis, it was very stable. But we thought it was dangerous. And it was, but not like now. So, what do you do in a world where the next biggest, some people would say bigger economy (China), is utterly totalitarian, where everyone has a social media score where they can take--same human thing. The Uyghurs aren't like us. Only ethnic Han Chinese get treated well while the Tibetans and all the rest, they are subjugated. How, and that's such a powerful country and getting more powerful. How do we maintain societies where rule of law isn't perfect, but people cared about the laws we passed? You know what, again, this is not dumping on Mexico, but I'll tell you a story that illustrates the conundrum. This was a professor of mine while we were negotiating NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement. And he had a conversation with--he was then Foreign Minister of Mexico. And I think he's a professor now, totally bicultural, American PhD. I'll think of his name. I can't think of it right now. Anyway, and they were still negotiating and the US was asking for more environmental guarantees. And he said to my friend, “You Americans don't get it. Because in America, law matters. Law doesn't matter in Mexico.” Give us all the guarantees you want. We'll sign them. It won't make any different. Now, that's not because Mexicans don't want--they don't want the cartels. They don't want--they want the same kind of democracy--which is imperfect--we have. But maybe you're the next generation and you're studying history. Maybe you can help us figure out how we can create more of this and at least maintain what we have. 02:26:38.000 --> 02:26:58.000 Yes, absolutely. I'm right there with you. Well, Mark, I can't thank you enough for your time and your candidness today. It has been extremely informative. It's been an honor to be able to speak with you. Before we close the interview, is there anything else you would like to add that we did not get to? 02:26:58.000 --> 02:28:46.000 Well, there may be, and I may have some stuff I can send you if you're interested. Because I started thinking through all of this and I appreciate it, Ryan, because not only are--number one, you're actually interested, which is great. Number two, you're going to teach, I hope, because I think you would be a good teacher. And it's been fun actually. And I didn't think I'd get so wound up (both laugh). But, you know, I'm trying to make it better. And gosh, the issue with Native Americans, I can't tell you that hours I have spent with all these issues in great depth. And they've had their, their challenges. And one of the interesting things about state government, once you take out national defense or a couple of things you're dealing with, actually there are many important issues that the federal government doesn't deal with. And in a state like California where it's a very activist legislature and government, you really deal with a huge number of things. So anyway. Well, I appreciate it and I appreciate you letting me talk about my plan to fix it all (laughs). I still see the world the way it could be. 02:28:46.000 --> 02:28:50.000 Right. No, and I admire that. We need more people like you honestly, that think in that way. 02:28:50.000 --> 02:28:51.000 Well-- 02:28:51.000 --> 02:28:58.000 So, I know, I really appreciate it. So thank you for everything that you have done and continue to try to do. Because I think it's very admirable. 02:28:58.000 --> 02:29:42.000 Well, I really appreciate that and I appreciate--you can't do it without help and support because people want that. People deserve--I'm not one of those who says, “Well, they voted the wrong way. They deserve it.” No, people deserve feeling good about their government, being able to say, “Well, I didn't agree with everything, but you know, they're trying to do the right thing.” And right now we don't have that. And I think this is one way to restore it. And I couldn't do it, even think about it if I didn't think people think, yeah, let's do that. 02:29:42.000 --> 02:29:43.000 Yeah. 02:29:43.000 --> 02:29:45.000 So anyway, well— 02:29:45.000 --> 02:29:46.000 Really Concur. 02:29:46.000 --> 02:29:48.000 I enjoyed this (laughs). 02:29:48.000 --> 02:30:02.000 I did as well. I think anybody that's going to check this interview out's going to really enjoy it. I learned a lot. And that's, I think, really the ultimate goal. So Mark, thank you again so much for joining me today at the California State University San Marcos Library. And I will now stop the recording. 02:30:02.000 --> 02:30:04.000 Okay. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10.xml WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyland, Mark. Interview, April 10, 2023 Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Mark Wyland on 04/10/2023. In this interview, Wyland discusses his upbringing and family background, including his family business in Pine Tree & Lumber. Wyland explains his education background along with studying in Germany for a year, and how he was motivated to choose a career in politics. Wyland expanded on his career on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board, becoming a member of the California State Assembly from 2000-2006, and then being elected into the California Senate in 2006, serving until 2014. Wyland reflects on his trials and tribulations throughout the years, offering his thoughts and suggestions on the current state of American politics and how it can be improved. Wyland also speaks on K-12 school curriculum, Native American History, and the importance of Oral History being taught in the classroom. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-38 Subject The topic of the resource Bills, Legislative California. Legislature. Assembly California. Legislature. Senate International relations Legislation -- California Lumberyards -- California -- Escondido Oral history Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century School boards -- California -- Escondido Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-10 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mark Wyland Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ryan Willis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (California) California Germany Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Mark Wyland Community history History Department internship Politics and governance Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Tanis Brown Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lucy Wheeler OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. photojournalism;education;college;administration;agriculture;gender OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Wheeler, Lucy. Interview, April 28, 2023. SC027-045 00:39:22 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This interview was recorded as part of the North County Oral History Initiative, a partnership between California State University San Marcos and San Marcos Historical Society &amp ; Heritage Park. This initiative was generously funded by the Center for Engaged Scholarship at CSU San Marcos. csusm Family farms--California ; Photography ; Adult students ; Education, Higher ; Oral history photojournalism ; education ; college ; administration ; agriculture ; gender Lucy Wheeler Tanis Brown mp4 WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2d8c14513d98ce9e8b8309f763c8fe46.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Interview of Lucy Wheeler by Tanis Brown and Charlie Colladay, April 28, 2023. Interview conducted at San Marcos Historical Society. 0 97 Post-retirement, education, and the gift of gab Wheeler discusses moving to San Marcos after retirement at the age of 80 and discovering photography through classes at Palomar College. Wheeler also touches on what she did before retirement, and how she discovered her “gift of gab,” especially for interviewing others, through going to back to school at Nazarene College. Palomar College ; Nazarene College ; photography 0 417 Photography Wheeler discusses in more detail her coursework in photography and her return to college which she illuminates through an encounter at a skate park. Wheeler also discusses the art of interviewing in further detail, and recounts a lesson she learned along those lines from a photography class. photography ; interviewing ; skate parks ; Sam Hodgins 0 822 Connecting the dots Wheeler discusses her concept behind her business card which states, “Connecting the dots,” and idea that originated from a man who worked with dementia patients and helped them connect the dots to their pasts. dementia ; memory 0 978 Technology, the pandemic, and Wheeler’s past Wheeler discusses her work for a medical laboratory in 1965, and how she learned to view and love technology as a tool. Wheeler ties those lessons to what carried her through the pandemic. Sperry Rand ; Control Data ; Covid-19 pandemic 0 1218 San Diego County’s para-farms and family farms Wheeler recounts being raised on a farm and San Diego County’s farming conditions. Wheeler outlines where her interest in documenting local farms arose during the pandemic, and discusses some of the para-farms’ farmers that she’s interviewed. para-farms ; family farms ; Yasukochi Farm ; Neil Nagata ; Rodriguez Farm ; Joe Rodriguez ; Susan Cupaiuolo ; Primavera Orchard ; cherimoya farming ; Covid-19 pandemic ; San Diego Food System Alliance 0 1801 Oral history Wheeler discusses the insights she’s learned about oral history and conducting a successful interview. oral history ; research 0 1947 Next projects Wheeler elaborates on her plans to expand her oral history work to look towards the future of San Diego farming, her “energy budget,” and her priorities for her future. Wheeler wraps up by discussing what she has learned about using her “gift of gab.” San Diego Food Alliance ; future of farming 0 oral history Lucy Wheeler discusses college, photojournalism, and San Diego agriculture, specifically the county's para-farms and family farms. Prior to attending Palomar College to study photography, she did street photography with the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce for several years. Gender roles and assumptions about age are also addressed. Additionally, Wheeler also contemplates the current state of American agriculture and potential prosperity, oral history, and her "gift of gab." NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:37.000 Okay. Good morning. This is April 28th, 2023. My name is Tanis Brown. I’m being assisted by Charlie Colladay on the camera this morning, and we are part of the North County Oral History Initiative. Lucy Wheeler is not only a member of our cohort, but she has also agreed to be an interviewee. So, we are very thankful, Lucy, that you’re willing to speak with us today. And I met you about a year ago when you stopped by the San Marcos Historical Society and brought some pictures of a famous artist from San Marcos. His name is Ted Wade. And you started to telling me about your experiences once you moved to San Marcos. And you handed me a little card introducing yourself. It said “Connecting the dots” which just was so intriguing to me. And then we had an exchange, and you were enthralled by getting involved with the Oral History Project. So, I’d like you to talk to our audience about how you got interested in conducting oral histories way before our project and some of the things that you’ve done since you came to San Marcos. 00:01:37.000 --> 00:03:42.000 Thank you so much for having me. It’s my pleasure to have been part of this program. The way I got started was I believe that everyone has been given a gift and thank goodness they’re not all the same because it brings different pictures to a project. And my gift, I think, was a gift of gab. And in this, back in the 1900s, 1930s, women weren’t supposed to do all this exploring and curiosity things. So, I kind of put a lid on that gift of gab and I prattled day and night. It took me a good number of years before I realized that I did have a voice, and once I found it and what I really wanted to say, I prattled less and listened more. And this is kind of how it evolved. And when I came to San Marcos, I had just retired at 80, and I thought I’ve carried this camera around with me all over. I’m going to go back and take better pictures. The first assumption from probably my classmates, but certainly people that I was photographing, was she must be coming back to take better pictures of her great-grandchildren. And that wasn’t the case. The case was to take better pictures and as I began to do that, I began to shut up and listen more and look more. And through this process—and I would like to say that it is not a matter of age, of when we discover what that gift is. It could start back in our 40s. It could—the 60s. Mine happened to be after I was 80 when I went back to school. 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:45.000 And where did you go to school, Lucy? 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:50.000 I have a degree in Business Administration from University of Minnesota. 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:51.000 Okay. 00:03:51.000 --> 00:05:26.000 And through an evolutionary process, I worked as a management consultant for Fortune 500 companies, and I’ve been in all 50 states and from the North Pole to the South Pole. I lived in Japan a couple of years. And through all of this, I’d had this mantra of “just keep moving.” Then I began to really listen and see that there’s stories. Everybody has a story. Everybody has characteristics and traits that they’d like to look for. And I’ve discovered that mine is actually interviewing. And it was through the help of Dean Nelson who is the head of the Journalist Department at Nazarene College. And he had just published a book at the beginning of Covid. Thank goodness he signed it for me. And I’ve been, through the last couple of years, taking classes through Zoom and keeping—working on it. So, I stepped into your offer at a perfect time and now my goal is to ask better questions so that when I’m asking the people that I’m interviewing, ask them the questions that will really make them talk about their true story, not the one that was—we all have kind of a fake story—but looking for that real story in people. That’s my goal. 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:40.000 So, what I’m hearing you saying is that once you moved to San Marcos and found some educational opportunities—and I think you told me you went to Palomar College for photography class? 00:05:40.000 --> 00:06:57.000 Oh yes. That’s where I began to really explore that creativity and getting rid of the old ideas that just because I had a camera doesn’t—at my age—doesn’t mean that I’m just taking pictures of my family or my kids. I do street photography for the Chamber of Commerce here in San Marcos. Been doing that for about 4 or 5 years now. And I’ve been involved in that. My characteristic or habits of exploring were kind of construed as masculine traits back in the 20s and 30s. And not to express—Well, all of a sudden, I am expressing. And I think, for a while, where I live here viewed me as a likeable tomboy. (Tanis chuckles) And now, I’m not. I’m just this loveable little old lady who is curious and adventuresome and turning it all into a better perspective where I listen more and talk less. 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:12.000 So, going back to school in your 80s, how many of your classmates—Did you have study groups or go on field trips or anything like that to hone your craft? 00:07:12.000 --> 00:08:42.000 No. No. We had assignments that we were to go out and—like one was speed, just to photograph in proper way. And this was very unique. I went to a skateboard place. And this gentleman who was very well dressed and saw me with my camera had a little grandson with him. And he had a designer cap on, a little tricycle, and he was following his grandfather around. So, the gentleman came over to me and he said, “Excuse me. What are you going to do with those pictures?” And I said, “Oh. I’m taking a class, and the assignment is speed.” He said, “Well, if my son ever saw him on Facebook, he’d kill me.” And I said, “Really? Well, I’m not taking them. I’m taking them, the speed of these” who were really good skaters, just flying through the air with the skateboard. So, a little bit later, he came over and asked me, he said “So, you’re going to Palomar.” And most of my class, I would say 50% of us were older people who were looking for just honing a skill, something that they would really do. Most of them were people that were looking for to go out and hike in the desert, you know, and walk all night and wait for the sun to come up on the right spot. 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:43.000 Ahh. 00:08:43.000 --> 00:10:13.000 But that wasn’t my intent. Anyway, he came over and he said, “So, you went back to college.” He said, “Hhmmm. The other day—” He said, “I’ve been retired now for about a year.” And he said, “The other day I went in to get a cup of coffee and my wife said, ‘Get out of my kitchen!’” (Tanis laughs) And he said, “What do I do now (shrugs) I’m retired and I don’t have anything really doing. I never thought of going back to college.” So, it’s exploring what’s available to us. And I’ll never forget how he was like “What do I do now?” (shrugs) And I see so many of my peers that are like “I don’t know how to get on Zoom. I don’t know how to handle Covid.” It has been a very upsetting time, and things are confused on any level. So, that was kind of the beginning of accepting my wonder and curiosity. And creativity was also considered back in the 2000s, well, especially during the Great Depression. Because survival was what you looked for. Curiosity was a waste of time. Buck up! And get out there and, you know, get the work done. 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:14.000 Okay. 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:15.000 So— 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:35.000 So, in addition to going to Palomar and taking photography and then, as I understand it, during the pandemic you got involved in interviewing or honing your interviewing skills. Now, tell me about how that got started. 00:10:35.000 --> 00:13:42.000 Well, there was a gentleman who is now I think the head of the photography department of the Union Tribune. His name was Sam Hodgkins. He had a workshop down at Balboa Park. And I was going to take an interviewing kind of class, of photography, photojournalism. And what he did was he told us about how you go out and you interview people out in the street, the vendors. And in that class, there was I think about 12 of us, 12 or 14, but there were 3 or 4 engineers. They were perfectionists when it came to the photography, but they didn’t know how to talk to people. I went out and with my gift of gab, “Hi. What’s your first name?” (Tanis chuckles) And I came back, and I had four. But there was one lady who was getting ready, and she had a keyboard. And she was getting ready to put it up and I said, “Oh!” The sun was just perfect on the keyboard. And the background was back, but her hands on the keyboard. And I interviewed her, and I asked her, she said “Well, I’m working my way through college, City College. And this is my way of making money, is with the tips.” And so, I went back, and we had to show these pictures. And I showed mine with the keyboard. And Sam said, “Whose picture is this?” And I said, “It’s mine.” (raises her finger and has a sheepish look on her face) And he said, “Now, that’s what I’m talking about. When you’re interviewing, get the photo that draws people in to asking the questions.” And I said, “Do you think I could make a living at this?” (both chuckle) And he laughed. And soon after that, in the photojournalism class, I had to interview a person who was doing what he was doing. So, I interviewed him. And we did it at the new public library downtown. And then, he and his wife—he’d just gotten married—went to Brooklyn, New York, and she was a writer, a journalist. And he was the photographer. And quite often, like in The Tribune even, you’ll have a photographer and then you’ll have a storyteller on a different aspect of it. But I kind of liked the fact that I can go out and take photos of the vendors, those candid moments that you try to get, and then ask them the right questions. And the more I practiced, the better it is. So, this was a great opportunity for growth for me, when I met you. But that’s how it all got started. 00:13:42.000 --> 00:14:04.000 That’s great. Well, your business card says, “Connecting the dots” and I think that’s a perfect description of what you do. And you talked to me a little bit about where that idea came from. You want to share that again? 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:09.000 Um, I’m not sure. 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:14.000 The man you met at the dementia-- 00:14:14.000 --> 00:16:18.000 Oh! Yes. There was a gentleman who had worked with dementia people, and they were used to him. And he note—And he was there, and they were comfortable with his being there. So, they just kind of assumed that he was part of the woodwork. But he observed that as the family would come to visit the people with dementia, they might not know their spouse. They might not know their children. But if they were given a photo of themselves when they were young, like 17, maybe after they’d been in the service, that they would light up and just say “Ah. That! I know! I recognize that.” So, then he began to have them pose in front of like a sink if they’re washing their face. One gentleman had a smile on his face because he saw himself as a member of the service in World War II. So, he then imposed that photo of him, when he was young, into the mirror. So, he was seeing himself as young. Another one was a lady who was a nurse. And she was also getting dressed. But behind her was a different nurse, probably a therapist that was holding a walker. And the lady is looking in the mirror, of herself as a nurse, thinking “I should be the one that’s doing that because that was my job.” And you could see the confusion on her face in both of those pictures. Another was a pharmacist who was stirring his little cup of coffee and he saw himself as a pharmacist stirring, when he was young. So, I thought, you don’t really have to have dementia to remember that. So, I started practicing in that and it was enjoyable. 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:41.000 So, the other thing I am really fascinated about is that, during the pandemic, that you took a wherewithal to look into continuing your education on Zoom. (Lucy chuckles) And so, how did you go about finding all these classes on interviewing or asking the right question? 00:16:41.000 --> 00:19:15.000 Well, I was fortunate in that I was in a—I was working in a medical laboratory in 1965. And at that time—it was in Minneapolis, which is where I had my degree in Business—they decided they were going to automate the laboratories. Sperry Rand and Control Data were both there. And at that time, there were more Fortune 500 companies in Minneapolis than any other city. That’s not the case now. But they were going to automate this laboratory. And this young man, probably 30, 35, was working for Sperry Rand and he said, “I know you people are really scared you’ll lose your job and there won’t be a need for you. But” he said, “this is just a tool. Technology is a tool. And it’s meant to help you, as a tool. What it can’t do is it can’t see the beautiful sunset where the Mississippi River and the Minnesota River come together. It can’t see the shoreline. It can’t see the sunsets. It’s just a tool.” I fell in love with technology then. And through my career as a management consultant then, I really came to appreciate more and more. I had my first computer when it was still a DOS. And quite different than it is now, much bigger. But I kept up with it and became kind of addicted to Windows. Now, I’ve changed to a iPhone because of Steve Jobs and his introduction to the school systems (Tanis laughs). But, and that’s another learning curve, switching from Windows to the iPhone. At any rate, then I was pretty much aware of the technology and its value when Covid hit. And I immediately was on to this whole thing. That was how I met Dean Nelson, any number of groups that would get—and you can talk to them and discuss things. And it was wonderful. It really carried me through the two years. I was not isolated because of that. 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:25.000 That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Well, truly, you know we talk about lifelong learners, and I certainly think that you are a perfect example of a lifelong learner! 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:26.000 Well— 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.000 And a lesson for all of us. 00:19:28.000 --> 00:20:15.000 —I think that all of us need to stop and look at what our gifts are and learn to develop them earlier. I’m grateful that I did. It all worked out in a constructive way. But we all have them. And it’s not everybody who is going to be an interviewer. A lot of people are really very, very creative. That has nothing to do with that. You don’t have to be an extrovert (both chuckle) in order to do that. So, I would encourage people to stop and think about the moment, not the future, not the past. But what do I want to have happen? 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:16.000 Yeah. 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:18.000 What do I want to express? 00:20:18.000 --> 00:21:20.000 So, I’d like to move our interview into now, once we got involved with this North County Oral History project. And during our first class—and we talked about our assignment and going out and interviewing at least two, and maybe three, people—you immediately knew exactly what direction you wanted to go in. And it was with the farming industry. And I was amazed because a lot of us that were in the class were kind of ticking off who might we interview. But you were really driven to capture some stories of people in the farming industry. So, I’m wondering how, where did that interest come from, Lucy? 00:21:20.000 --> 00:25:29.000 Well, I was raised on the farm in the Midwest. But I didn’t like it. Didn’t want to be there. (Tanis chuckles) It was isolated. It was, you know, not a—They needed men for the work of the farm. But the one interesting thing about this area is San Diego is the ninth largest city in the United States. But within its county, it has more farms—and especially para-farms—than any other county in the United States. That’s an unusual situation. I also know that it has 23 different kinds of soil that grows one thing on one area and then 10 miles down the road something else is better. They found that flowers and strawberries love the ocean whereas olive trees don’t. But inland, olive trees are great because the soil is different. The moisture is different. And, at the same time, there’s a crisis right now in our expensive way of living that developers want to develop the land rather than grow crops. And they would like to have condos instead of strawberries. So, it has put all of us into a very precarious situation about what’s the future of farming here. So, in order to know the past, present, and future, what better way than to go and look at the history. And, because I hang out at farmer’s markets—and in 2017 there were 5000 para-farms, which means 10 acres or less. They’re due to do a survey next year, 2014 (2024). This is done by the Farm Bureau. And I’d already been to their yearly groups and the Farm Bureau and that, and all of the farmer’s markets. And then when Vista was the only market that never closed during the pandemic. And he stood up to them and said, “If the grocery stores are open, we’re open.” And there were some vendors that came too. So, I had an inroad. So, I went back to a couple of vendors and started just curiously saying “Where did your farm start?” And I chose, first of all, the one that has the strawberry farm. And Mr. Nagata whose family came here in 1902 and was able to buy land at that time, and he married the Yasukochi family who were famous for their—everything from CSA. And their son, Neil Nagata, is the Farmer of the Year this year, here in San Diego County. Then I looked a little further and there was a farm up in north Escondido, close to Temecula, that is the Rodriguez farm. And they migrated here from Mexico in 1923. And I interviewed Joe Rodriguez who is the third generation of five in their farm. And then the third one was—and I have trouble with the last name on this because the gentleman was Italian, Capo-- (Cupaiuolo) 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:32.000 C. Susan C! (both laugh) 00:25:32.000 --> 00:30:01.000 Right! Exactly. And he passed away in 2020. But they had, he and his wife, had about 20 years of very successful cherimoya (sic) orchard which is very unusual and unique. And, as a side note, cherimoyas are only grown in San Diego County and Orange County. They won’t grow anywhere else in the United States because of the soil conditions and the moisture. But, at any rate, he passed away in 2020. So, I interviewed his wife. And she told about how they were able to make a construct of this. And this very representative, six acres, and very representative of how these farms that are under 10 acres can survive. And a lot of them didn’t during the Covid. They didn’t know how to market. They didn’t know how to sell their products. Their audience was gone. Instead of “Here’s my tomatoes I grew” where do the people come when the markets weren’t even open? So, there was a lot of things that her husband had contributed in that knowledge. He did a lot of work with Frazier Farms and promoted the cherimoyas (sic). And they had backups of ways that they survived. It was very, very interesting. And it was through this past adventure kind of thing that I’d been doing anyway that I continued then with that and pursued it, and fortunately found three families that had immigrated as well. So, as the techs from Cal State are doing these hashtags, you can look at it from immigrants that began farming. And especially the Rodriguez family was very interested in—because they’ve gone organic. And organic is a special kind of treatment that they have to go through to get their soil fertilized. It’s very costly. And yet he wants to promote now that he’s getting older. He would like to retire and just help younger people become interested in growing. Right now, the kids don’t want to be farmers. The immigrants don’t want to be farmers. Mr. Nagata told me that if they have to pay $15 an hour for minimum wage now to have people pick strawberries, they can’t afford, in this day and age, to sell wholesale. So, these things are all building up as to how they did it ; what we’re in the crisis with right now ; and then, with this San Diego Food System Alliance, look at new ways of developing foods that maybe we’ve never thought of before. Hydroponic (sic) gardening is one. There’s a few others—turning like—going against, not against, but seeing that milk products with cheese and that sort of thing maybe isn’t as productive for our own health as maybe almond milk that has plant-based cheese. And that’s scary to some people to think “Oh, my goodness. You know, let’s go back to the olden days.” (Tanis chuckles) And things change. No matter who we are or where we’re going. Attitudes change. Opinions change. Now, everybody has one whereas 70 years ago, no, you didn’t do that. So, it has been a really exciting time. I really love being out there and just talking to people about how did you do this and what do we do now? And where are my great-grandchildren going to go eat their lunch? 00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:18.000 Yeah. I’m curious because you seem so well-versed in understanding kind of the food production and history and future, is there anything through the interviews that you learned that surprised you? 00:30:18.000 --> 00:31:01.000 Um, not surprised me so much. But it brought out how do you ask better questions to get answers from people? In the storytelling process, the interviewing process, which is my thing, you have to learn to listen, and then think about it. And I made a couple of mistakes. But sometimes you have to make the mistakes to realize that that’s another growing experience, you know. Like “Oh, maybe I could have done that better. How can I do that better?” And ask a better question in a better way. 00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:02.000 Mm-hmm. 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:04.000 That’s what I think I’ve learned the most. 00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:30.000 Yeah. So, for anybody who’s listening to this interview and might consider either being interviewed or interviewing someone, how would you recommend or promote the idea of participating in oral histories? 00:31:30.000 --> 00:32:27.000 Well, I think if they know what their interest is—and mine just happened to be agriculture—but whatever it might be, do all the homework you can. Do the research of what do I need to know to ask the right questions to get to my point? The whole purpose of an interview is what’s the point? And if the point is to make a better understanding so we can build on the future, great. Whatever that avenue might be, do your homework. And one of the best sources is Madame Librarian. They are great at helping you see sources. They know how to get on the internet and dig deep. And the deeper you dig, the more insight you get about asking the right questions. 00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:44.000 Well, that’s great. So, as we wind down this interview, I would like to ask what’s next for Lucy Wheeler? (Lucy chuckles) What do you have brewing in your mind about where you go from here, Lucy? 00:32:44.000 --> 00:35:59.000 Last year, when we started this project, it was in September I believe? And right after that, the San Diego Food System Alliance had their second big global kind of meeting. And they met over at Escondido at the Center. And I went to it. And all of a sudden, I was in rooms with these future-thinking farmers of saying “I don’t even understand the language” because they had different speakers and different ways of presenting. And that’s when I started to say I need to dig deeper. So, I’m digging deeper into how this Alliance now is viewing the food system that they’re imagining. And part of it has gotten involved with the climate part. They’re trying to draw in it as well as drawing in all nationalities, not just one, and trying to understand it more global, really raise the arena. And I’d like to be part of that. And I had asked them when I went to it. It was just a few weeks after we’d started. And they just sent me, the next one will be in October. And they will be discussing this, and I’ll have a much better language to use by the time I go to that. And I don’t—I have—One of the things that happens as you get older is you don’t have the energy you had when you were 20 or 30. So, I have my energy budget more in focus on how I can put that into my future. And for however long. None of us know how long we’re going to live, you know, if it’s going to be tomorrow or 20 years from now. But, in that interim, I plan to just keep doing that kind of thing because it interests me and it’s my reason for getting up in the morning. But I don’t have the energy to spend all day on it. It’s putting it into priorities. And that’s one of my priorities, is that goal of being interested in what might I contribute to this. And we can. We just don’t think we can. We get caught up in our own thoughts of the past. And we don’t open our imagination. And these people are opening the imagination of what can be possible, maybe more healthy. I’m not sure. 00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:26.000 More healthy. So, is there anything that I haven’t asked you about your educational process and your taking what you’ve learned and actually doing something about it in our little interview? Is there anything that I missed that you would like to tell our audience? 00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:58.000 No. I think that’s pretty much it. As we get older, things get into a different perspective like the energy. But there’s still the priority of what’s important to us. And one of the things that’s really important to me is to be able to feel like that I could contribute something. And that just means digging deeper. Not worry about my toe hurt when I was two. (Tanis laughs) 00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:07.989 All right. So, just to clarify, what year did you come to San Marcos? 00:37:07.989 --> 00:37:08.000 2010. 00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:10.000 2010. 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:57.000 So, the last 13 years have been dedicated to really honing in on something that I always wanted to do all my life. I think I was born with the gift of gab. I just didn’t know how to use it. And it took me a lot of years to figure out that it’s pretty nice to listen. And if you really stop to think about it, when you’re talking about the weather or you’re talking about the neighbor, it’s not always focused on what our traits or skills could be, what the energy level could be. It’s a distraction. And, yeah, I think listen more and talk less. 00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:12.000 All right. Well, this has been a pleasure for me to have you share this with our audience and be part of the collection at Cal State San Marcos. So, thank you so much. 00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:15.000 I have enjoyed it to the hilt. 00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:18.000 Great. Okay, enjoy, Lucy. 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.000 Thank you. 00:38:19.000 --> 00:39:22.000 Take care. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. &#13 ; &#13 ; In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.xml WheelerLucy_BrownTanis_2023-04-02_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wheeler, Lucy. Interview, April 28, 2023. Description An account of the resource Lucy Wheeler discusses college, photojournalism, and San Diego agriculture, specifically the county's para-farms and family farms. Prior to attending Palomar College to study photography, she did street photography with the San Marcos Chamber of Commerce for several years. Gender roles and assumptions about age are also addressed. Additionally, Wheeler also contemplates the current state of American agriculture and potential prosperity, oral history, and her "gift of gab." Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-045 Subject The topic of the resource Adult students Education, Higher Family farms -- California Oral history Photography Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-28 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lucy Wheeler Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tanis Brown Charlie Colladay Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lucy Wheeler Community history North County Oral History Initiative Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/07a30db156660d21bcc54bcf2578a48f.png e13aceb4ac3aad4e6fd69fef3dbf5efe Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource SpackmanA_250px https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4b980f381eb5f170b4d732a73f004a7d.pdf 2af1a32989492e0fe580e85a42ceffac Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wagner, Steve. Interview transcript, October 24. 2018. Description An account of the resource Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Wagner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-24 Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Stone Brewing Company (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County University of California, Davis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Evanston (Ill.) California -- Santa Cruz County -- Santa Cruz Los Angeles (Calif). Portland (Or.) San Marcos (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p class="p2"><a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en." target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a></p> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_transcript Brewchive(r) Community history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/112b21d9155ea35c00877f0832c5a9a6.pdf be319453aba0694528cf6ede19e42c5e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyland, Mark. Interview transcript, April 10, 2024 Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Mark Wyland on 04/10/2023. In this interview, Wyland discusses his upbringing and family background, including his family business in Pine Tree & Lumber. Wyland explains his education background along with studying in Germany for a year, and how he was motivated to choose a career in politics. Wyland expanded on his career on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board, becoming a member of the California State Assembly from 2000-2006, and then being elected into the California Senate in 2006, serving until 2014. Wyland reflects on his trials and tribulations throughout the years, offering his thoughts and suggestions on the current state of American politics and how it can be improved. Wyland also speaks on K-12 school curriculum, Native American History, and the importance of Oral History being taught in the classroom. This oral history interview was made possible by the Ellie Johns Foundation stewarded by the Rancho Santa Fe Library Guild. It was created as part of CSUSM's University Library/History Department internship in oral history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mark Wyland Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ryan Willis Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-04-10 Subject The topic of the resource Bills, Legislative California. Legislature. Assembly California. Legislature. Senate International relations Legislation -- California Lumberyards -- California -- Escondido Oral history Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century School boards -- California -- Escondido Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) California Germany Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Mark Wyland License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10_transcript Community history History Department internship Politics and governance https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/16c819ecee03d3978d8818963f0d9827.pdf d5078d0e63780b613c3a2061cc24e594 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bilbray, Brian. Interview transcript April 3rd, 2023. Description An account of the resource Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. This oral history interview was made possible by the Ellie Johns Foundation stewarded by the Rancho Santa Fe Library Guild. It was created as part of CSUSM's University Library/History Department internship in oral history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brian Bilbray Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Robert Sheehan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-03 Subject The topic of the resource Borderlands Environmentalism and politics -- California -- San Diego Environmentalism and politics -- Mexico -- Tijuana Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Metropolitan government Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century United States. Congress. House Water rights -- Mexico Water rights -- United States Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Imperial Beach (Calif.) Mexican-American Border Region Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Brian Bilbray License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_Transcript Community history History Department internship Politics and governance Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Riccardo Savo Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Brian Bilbray OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Tijuana;San Diego;Borderlands;Politics;Congressman OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Bilbray, Brian. Interview April 3rd, 2023. SC027-056 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm Environmentalism and politics Politics and government--21st century Borderlands Mexican-American Border Region Water rights--United States Water rights--Mexico Metropolitan government Politics and government--20th century Environmentalism and politics--California--San Diego Environmentalism and politics--Mexico--Tijuana United States. Congress. House Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Tijuana ; San Diego ; Borderlands ; Politics ; Congressman Brian Bilbray Riccardo Savo 1.0:|19(17)|34(6)|46(17)|62(10)|76(5)|95(5)|111(17)|123(15)|139(3)|155(10)|171(12)|182(13)|195(5)|210(5)|223(3)|235(9)|246(5)|260(12)|273(4)|287(4)|300(13)|312(10)|325(15)|339(16)|353(6)|364(12)|376(5)|387(12)|399(5)|413(3)|425(13)|436(13)|448(12)|458(6)|473(12)|485(10)|504(6)|518(14)|529(16)|541(15)|554(4)|567(7)|579(14)|589(14)|603(5)|614(15)|628(9)|644(13)|655(16)|667(6)|680(3)|690(15)|701(13)|712(9)|724(9)|738(3)|752(3)|762(14)|777(8)|789(5)|803(3)|814(9)|827(6)|841(7)|855(13)|866(13)|881(8)|895(11)|905(16)|919(9)|932(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b761005e2c7ce7501e9da0e69bfc90a2.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Congressman Brian Bilbray and Riccardo Savo introduce themselves and discuss what it was like for Congressman Bilbray to grow up in San Diego's South County, next to the border with Mexico. Birthplace ; Childhood ; Mexico ; San Diego ; Coronado ; Imperial Beach 0 240 Beginning in Politics Congressman Bilbray discusses how he began his political career. Along the way, Congressman Bilbray explains that he had to navigate the political landscape in a way that was analogous to surfing. Politics ; Dana Rohrabacher 0 363 Accension from Mayor of Imperial Beach to House of Representatives Congressman Bilbray discusses the driving factors that led him to successfully run as a Republican congressman including his college degrees and experience. Congressman Bilbray also discusses his previous experience as a lifeguard prior to politics. Law Enforcement ; Lifeguard 0 639 First Term as a Congressional Representative - Environmental Policies Congressman Bilbray discusses how his early political experiences as a city and county politician provided him with the expertise to form environmental policy in Congress. Congressman Bilbray sponsored numerous environmental bills that had a significant impact on San Diego and South Bay. Smog ; Smog Reduction Act ; Environment ; Tijuana ; Borderland 0 1030 Navigating Environmental Groups and the Border Areas Congressman Bilbray talks about how he helped to create the Otay Mountain Wilderness area and how he worked with groups like Green Peace throughout his career. Congressman Bilbray also talks about how the international border can be an obstacle when trying to work with multiple groups and agencies. Otay Mountain Wilderness Area ; Otay ; Frotnera ; Border ; Borderlands 0 1840 Challenging Authority - Second Term in Congress Congressman Bilbray talks about how there is a responsibility to speak up when you see something that isn't right. He also says that just because someone in authority says you can't do something does not make it correct. This mentality directly led Congressman Bilbray to run for a second, non-consecutive, term in Congress. San Diego ; Federal Government ; Healthcare ; Science ; Air Resources Board 0 2184 Tijuana Sewage Management Congressman Bilbray discusses how he worked with multiple agencies and passed multiple bills to address the sewage crisis. Bob Simmons ; Environment ; Sewage ; Tijuana 0 2926 Working with Bob Filner Congressman Bilbray discusses how he worked with Bob Filner. Bob Filner ; Sexual Harassment 0 3032 Reaching Across the Aisle Congressman Bilbray talks about how bipartisan legislation is essential to getting things done in politics. bipartisan legislation ; Democrats ; Republicans 0 3371 Local Government and Ideal Changes in Imperial Beach Congressman Bilbray talks about what he would like to see happen in Imperial Beach to improve the lives of people living there. He also talks about the importance of proper consultation by subject matter experts and following facts when proposing legislation. Imperial Beach ; Politics ; Environment 0 3778 Being in the Right Place to Change Things Congressman Bilbray talks about the California REAL I.D. and how some of his legislation did not pass. Congressman Bilbray also talks about going against his own party to convince them to pass legislation. REAL I.D. ; Immigration ; 9/11 0 4210 Outro and End of Interview 0 Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. Riccardo Savo: So, formality. Today is April 3rd, 2023. I am Riccardo Savo, a graduate student at Cal State San Marcos. I'm interviewing Congressman Brian Bilbray for the University Library Special Collections Oral [History Internship] Project. Mr. Bilbray, thank you very much for being here with me today. Brian Bilbray: Honored to be with you. Savo: No, it's definitely an honor and privilege here. I would just like to begin very broadly, if you could just, you know, tell me a little bit of background, a little bit about your background here in San Diego County. I understand that you're a Coronado native, and, you know, a lot of the issues that you ran as a politician concerned about the environment. How was your experience in Coronado? How did that affect your transition or your, your risk taking in politics Bilbray: For the record, I'm an Imperial Beach. Savo: Imperial Beach. Bilbray: I was born in Coronado, actually at North Island, which wasn't technically part of Coronado at that time. But when I was chairman of San Diego County, I had that part of North Island annexed to Coronado, so I could claim I was born in Coronado. But no, I was actually born and raised in Imperial Beach, a block from the Pacific Ocean. Two houses separated my childhood home, uh, and the Mexican border. I had to go about 50 yards, maybe 40, 35 yards to go to the Tijuana estuary. And that's where I played, beaches, literally, I had the luckiest thing in the world. I literally grew up on the edge. On the edge with Mexico, and the edge, with the Pacific Ocean. So when I talked to my, my cousins in Australia, I could always explain where I live, because anywhere in the world, you just say, “You know where the Pacific Ocean is?" and “You know where the border is between Mexico and the U.S.?” Well, right where they meet is where I live and I'm growing up. Savo: That's awesome. Bilbray: . My mother was an Australian tennis player and accountant, and my parents, um, there was a temporary use of a hotel for General MacArthur, and my parents met there, and my father was a naval officer who actually was from southern Alabama. A place called Monroeville, where To Kill a Mockingbird was written. And he went to an orphanage in Mobile and got into the Navy, and they actually met, and in 1944, my mother came to the United States as the first group of war brides. In fact, she was very proud that she was the first Australian war bride to get her citizenship. So interesting mixture. But that Australian background with a, with an American, a kind of working-class background, kind of made me who I am. Savo: You mentioned once in an interview that you compared surfing to politics. You know, if you wanna ride a wave, you have to take a risk. Could you speak to how those hobbies and, and that childhood background, how did that translate when you were running for [San Diego] city council? What, what… how would I say it? What, motivated you to, to join city council? Bilbray: Well, first of all. Savo: Especially at a young age, Bilbray: You know, surfing starting, I started surfing at third grade, and I'm, interesting story that, when I ran for the city council at 25, 24 [years old], there was a man that lived on my block who I asked him, if “You'd consider voting for me?” And he says, “I'll vote for you no matter what. I've watched you your whole life.” And he says, “I remember you dragging a balsa wood board over your shoulder, dragging the board to the beach and back every day, and you look like Christ going to the Calvary.” And he said, “if you were determined enough as a third grader to do that, I think you ought to go to the city council.” But, the surfing analogy in life is just so clear, it’s that you get out of it what you put into it, but you've got to invest the hard work. And you've got to basically, put yourself in a position where opportunity may come along. And so you're not guaranteed to catch any wave, but you're guaranteed you're never gonna catch a wave if you're not willing to get in the cold water, struggle against the waves, and then sit and wait for the wave at the right time, and then the execution. So, a lot of this opportunity, a lot of it’s perseverance. And one of the things about surfing that a lot of people don't understand is, unlike skiing and a lot of other things, you can't see what you're going to do. You have to imagine the wave breaking to get in the right spot. And so, a lot of this is having the imagination to perceive what is going to happen and be in the right place at the right time with the right talents and the right tools to be able to take advantage of it. And to be able to, you know, accomplish anything with it. And so that, in a little way, I think that applies to all life, but in politics, it just happens to be a little higher profile. Savo: Okay. Bilbray: Oh, by the way. -- Savo: Yes. Bilbray: One of the lines I always said to Dana Rorabacher, which was a guy from Huntington Beach. He would not endorse me for Congress until I went up to Huntington Beach and surfed with him. And he just said, then he said,” Why are you so much a better surfer than I am?” And I said, “Dana, I've been doing it a lot longer than you have, but you surf like your politics, you only go to the right. There's a whole left to a wave. So, if you're willing to just catch the good wave, sometimes you go to the left and sometimes you go to the right.” And I think he took the analogy appropriately [laughs] Savo: That’s great. So, I'm curious to learn about how you went from becoming mayor and then ascending to the House of Representatives. You know, you first represented the 50th district and the 52nd, I believe. Bilbray: 49th and then the 50th. Savo: 50th. My apologies. Could you talk about that ascent for me briefly, if you could? Bilbray: I actually got involved with politics, because I was a lifeguard. And the whole ocean was always very much a big part of my life. But being down there, the clash between law enforcement and the kids on the street, and you had drug dealing in Imperial Beach. But then the law enforcement almost approached it as if everybody who was longhaired and young was involved in this. And I actually got involved with getting groups together to work with the police and get the police to meet the kids and the kids. So that, you know, knowledge is the most important thing law enforcement has. And as a lifeguard, that gave me a good position of someplace where I could, um, that I was neither fish nor fowl. I was sort of in between the law enforcement and the kids on the beach. Bilbray: They were used to lifeguards being around. We weren't a threat. That ended up getting me involved with it. And, when I was 24 years old, actually was 23! I was appointed as a human relations commissioner by the city. And then at 24, I was asked after a rescue where I, had a girl around my neck and I had to do a in-water resuscitation on a young lady. In fact, I always remember how blue she was. I didn't, I really didn't believe we, I had a chance to save her. She was face down and I ended up resuscitating and going-- didn't get any response to her, in her vitals. But halfway to the hospital after the EMTs picked her up, she was… survived. What I didn't know at that time was, we do rescues, like a lot of rescues not in the water resuscitations like that, but we do a lot of it. Bilbray: And you never think about, it's just another rescue. But what happened this time was there happened to be a local newspaper photographer taking pictures of the beach, and he had a whole series of this rescue. So, then the city gave me a big award for saving it. And then people started saying, “He ever thought about getting involved in politics?” And my family had been involved in the formation of the city and a couple recalls. So, as a young, younger person. I sat through meetings and when my father died, my father died when I was in 10th grade. I kind of got mom into the political scene as a way to keep her busy as a high school student. And that sort of led to people thinking comfortable that they could try to talk this young, you know, 24-year-old running for the city council. And I was elected to the city council just after my 25th birthday, a couple months after my 25th birthday. Savo: Wow. And I'm assuming that's like probably around March? Bilbray: April. Savo: April. Oh. So, then… Bilbray: The elections were, separated in those days. And I mean local elections were able to be placed any time they wanted to. Savo: Okay. So this had all happened after the fact that you had attended Southwestern and everything? Bilbray: Yeah. I actually, what happened was, I was a history major with a theater arts minor. Like I say quite freely, I wanted to be a history professor, but I couldn't pull the academics, so I got stuck in Congress instead. But the theater, really the history background with a theater minor really did help me in politics. I mean, in fact, there's a lot of camera crews for TV stations here in town that always, still, jack me up for telling them, “Well, now do you want to get this angle of the light?” [laughs] I would set up the shots because I was used to it. But I'm, I think that it helps to some degree to understand presentation. And not in debate. I think a lot of [the] problem [with] people in politics thinks debates, what's really important Message is a lot more than arguing. Savo: It's all about the understanding, the knowledge, the whole presentation as well. But, you know, it's, it's having that mindset or having that expertise. Bilbray: Yeah. Savo: So I'm curious to learn about your first term as a congressman in the House of Representatives. You authored, sponsored numerous pieces of legislation that not only pertained to the local environment, but also to our border. You introduced the Border Smog Reduction Act of 1998. Could you tell me a little bit about that? How were you able to garner support within the House to do so? And did you work with other local representatives to achieve that? Bilbray: Well, first really, my years in local government gave me a real background that most people in Washington don't have. I served on the California Coastal Commission. I was able to, I served on the Air Resources Board for the state of California, the notorious CARP working with some of the best scientists in the world. And legislators don't have this kind of exposure. I served on the Air District for San Diego County and so, a lot of the technical stuff that you pick up in local administration, you would never be able to have in almost any other field. And so I was, I had worked as a mayor because of the Tijuana sewage problem. I had, you know, 45 million gallons of raw sewage pouring into my city in 1980. And I was aware of that. Bilbray: But the Air Resources Board and the Air District, I sponsored the Smog Reduction Act because you had a situation to where the federal government was requiring that if somebody worked in a non-attainment area, an area where it's polluted like L.A., San Diego, that if you commuted into a non-attainment area, you had to have your car smogged in that non-attainment area. So that was a law. So somebody coming from humor or something would have to do it. Well, the same government that was requiring that the locals do this, were controlling the international border, and waving people in every day that didn't have their car smogged. And so we ended up in a situation in south San Diego, uh, the South Bay that you had Imperial Beach that might have had a real pollution problem when it came to water, but we had the cleanest air in San Diego County. Bilbray: And, because we didn't get hit with what they call the Catalina eddy, where L.A. smog would come out during the night and then blow down on North County and pollute the northern part. Our air, Imperial Beach was very clean, but two miles away, three miles away at San Ysidro we had the dirtiest spot in the county. And that was because of the traffic, the operation of the border, and the fact that we weren't getting the smogging going down. And I got exposed working on that problem. I got exposed to groups like Honeywell's Remote Sensing, where they were identifying that the stop and go traffic was a major pollution problem. And I mean, right to this day, you have no one pushing to have stop signs taken out. Bilbray: We’re talking about doing all these billion-dollar projects and all these great little environmental projects but, just going to traffic circles instead of traffic lights, going to yield signs instead of stop signs, huge reduction in air emissions, and nobody talks about it. It's totally blind. But because I worked on that border smog as a local government guy, I then was in the position that when I got to Washington, I knew the problem, I knew the technicalities and, and pushed that. And what's interesting about the Border Smog Reduction Act, we did not have one Mexican national complain about it. Not one! The people that complained were Americans who were registering their cars out of the country to avoid the deal. And it was U.S. citizens that said, “Well, I'm a U.S. citizen. I have the right to do this.” And all of this, you know, when you do these things, the learning curve is so steep, you learn so much by just making the effort to move it forward. Savo: Hmm That’s very interesting. I didn't know that it was mainly U.S. nationals complaining about this bill. I assume that there would've been some repercussions from the Mexican end. But, I'm interested, how that was perceived after the bill was passed. Were there any political fallout from that? Bilbray: No, you would think that, you think that people, you know, everybody's got a hypersensitivity. Um, like I, I was told by Greenpeace one time that they don't wanna look punitive to a nation of color. So you can't apply the normal standards to certain areas because people then have a hypersensitivity of looking to be outraged about it. I didn't sense very much attack at all. I think that everybody's gotta remember the greatest victims of that problem. The only people that were impacted more than San Ysidro, was Tijuana. And, a lot of that border pollution issue is the fact that the most vulnerable and the poorest are the most impacted. And that isn't discussed about very much. And so, uh, no. I'm sure that there might have been a lot more people upset, but really, it was very focused on the fact that the problem was something that just common sense. That if you want to have the opportunity to go to school in San Diego County, if you want the opportunity to work in San Diego County, with those opportunities, go environmental responsibilities. And that nexus that connection is essential for not only our environmental policy, but for our whole quality of life. Bilbray: You can't maintain any standard if you're going to find excuses to not, maintain a minimum standard. Savo: You mentioned groups like Greenpeace. Um, how, how were you able to reach across to these groups? Or how were you able to be in connection with these groups if they were not so willing to back your bill or not so willing to help the crisis? It seems like they were more counterproductive. It seems like they were more-- Bilbray: Well, they can be on situations like that. But when I did the. I created the Otai Mountain Wilderness Area. And in Washington, because you have certain mindsets in Washington. But, in Washington, when I proposed that we were going to have a wilderness area that had roads in it, you would've think that I was committing the greatest sacrilege in the world because that they couldn't understand, “Well then why have wilderness [area], if you have wilderness [that] is all about roads?” And, actually, it was the local Sierra Club that helped me carry the message to Washington and to the National Sierra Club that without the roads, the wilderness area would be totally destroyed. And they said, “Why?” I said, because the border will be totally out of control. And you have people that had no life experience of the Frontera and what goes on in the frontier. Bilbray: I mean, you're looking at somebody that, when I was 10 years old, walked from Imperial Beach all the way down and, you know, crossed into Mexico and came back. My mother actually caught me as I was crossing. And before she passed away, I said, how did you know to come catch me down there? She goes, “Well, I went to the park and across the street they said, ‘Oh, Brian went with this 10-year-old and, this 12-year-old, and he's going to Mexico.’” And so, she drove down and caught me. But, that kind of, you know, growing up with that environment, you sort of go back and forth about how you approach this. When it comes to, there's just. It's just astonishing how with the entire Frontera area, people are intimidated by it. Bilbray: [They] are absolutely intimidated. And it's so alien to them. I mean, to this day, you have people come visit you at your house, and you can walk out of my front doorstep and see the bull ring at La Playa [in Tijuana]. And Tijuana looks down on Imperial Beach. We take that for granted, and people just don't comprehend that. And I think that a lot of this kind of stuff is, people are intimidated. Even environmentalist groups and NGOs are very intimidated by it. And I remember there was a lady who served with me on the County [of San Diego] Board of Supervisors, Susan Golding, who, was doing something about the border. And she got totally attacked because she said something that somebody was always sensitive about. And she walked in my office very upset and said, “What's going on?” Bilbray: And I said, it's a landmine. As soon as you get around that border region, people are looking at one side or the other, and it's totally different. And don't get upset about it. And they're very uncomfortable about the border. But see, when you grow up in Imperial Beach, when you grow up in San Ysidro, Chula Vista, you know, at least 20% of the kids that we went to school with lived in Tijuana. I mean, which came in handy when you were in high school because you go down there, and you knew somebody's uncle owned one of the bars. You know, it was just one of those things that we were culturally, crossing. But that is, we take it for granted. And that's a big mistake for us taking it for granted. The ability for people to comprehend the trans-frontera culture is so tough for 'em. I mean, that line gets in there. When you try to explain to 'em, and any of us that grew [up] on the South Bay know, you can know where Mexico starts and where the U.S. starts by the color of the lights. And we just sort of think about that. Well, it's something that just doesn't happen through osmosis. It just happens to be our neighborhood. Savo: You mentioned that's a lot to take in. You mentioned this transnational community, this area that IB [Imperial Beach]is located in. Would you say that this community that's being formed here, did it have any effect on the development in IB [Imperial Beach]? Because I know, there's a lot of different propositions that you wanted, recreational that you wanted to… Bilbray: You had, you had. Let me tell you the transformation and anybody that grew up in the South Bay understands it. Where else in America, when do you have to drive through two other cities to get to the other part of a city? Savo: That’s true. Bilbray: Physically cannot go on. A lot of people, we take it for granted, but the extraordinary situation that happened with the major wealth in the city of San Diego, using their political power and influence to annex a huge area in our neighborhoods, and it was for their land development schemes. You had major investors from San Diego City buy in an area called Otai Mesa along the border. And they bought all the land around a place called Brownfield, and they were going to make the international airport there, and they were gonna make a fortune. That major investment, they annexed, and cut a deal, so that they could annex down a waterway, 300 feet wide, down the middle of San Diego Bay, uh, negotiated with cities not to claim their old title. Bilbray: So, they could sneak down here and then annex an appendage down along the border so they could control the border crossing at San Ysidro, and they could take the airport and move the airport down there and make a fortune. They used that to stop any development in the estuary or in the valley because they wanted that all free and clear for landing jets over the top of it. ’Cause they didn't wanna see the problems we had at, at Lindbergh Field. All of that was part of something that those of us in the South Bay didn't even know what was going on. And the annexation of San Diego into the South Bay was a major intrusion. I mean, the south, the South Bay part of San Diego is nothing, less than a colony. And I watched that, I watched it in many little ways, but the manifestation that I try to explain to people so they can have a visual is that when you drive from Imperial Beach and leave Imperial Beach and go into San Diego, between the freeway and Imperial Beach. You'll notice that there's not one billboard in Imperial Beach. Bilbray: But as soon as you hit San Diego, it’s billboard after billboard after billboard. And I know because I was county supervisor for Point Loma and for Imperial Beach, a lot of, most of those billboards were shipped down from the wealthy areas of Point Loma because you had a local council member who want to get it off of Rosecrans [Street in Point Loma]. So, the deal was you take it off of Rosecrans and we'll let you put it down in Imperial Beach in the South San Diego area. And literally using this as a dumping ground. You see hotels being converted to halfway houses in the coastal zone. There's no place else in America where that allows. You've got nowhere else in America under the EIS, the Environmental Impact Statement, could you cite a Home Depot or a Walmart, legally, anywhere with only one access point. You always have to have at least two, if not three. Well, down in the south San Diego, you not only have a Walmart, you have a Walmart and a Home Depot with only one access point. And that intersection is what they call a Schedule E. It is dysfunctional most of the time because they've created that. Somebody made a lot of money on it, and the environmental standards were abandoned because these are just poor people of color. And so, yeah. Don't get me started on this, but the whole concept has been a real problem. Savo: You you're very passionate about the subject and I'm very curious to know how...were, as a congressman, how were you able to explain to your, or illustrate to your constituents that you were that passionate about this, about what was happening in an IB. Obviously today, in today's day and age, we live in an area of transparency, right? Were we're trying to voice our message and our concerns. What, what was your outreach to the community and to the district? Bilbray: I had an advantage that because I had served as mayor and county supervisor, I had shown my passion for it before I was ever a congressman. In fact, I got a reputation of being a little crazy. And that, uh, but the situation was crazy. It started very early in my first term as mayor, where the county health department, which let me just say on the side. The County of San Diego has probably the best health department in the entire country. The standard, of quality, the science is second to none and it really helped me when I went to Washington. One of my greatest, I had resources, I had people I could call, I had people who were so far ahead of the curve on air and in health issues that were great. Bilbray: I had actually started over the issue that the federal government came in and condemned half of our city for a habitat preservation. It had actually been a big section had been condemned by the United States Navy called it the Tijuana Sluice Preserve. And that was the preserve, the right of the Navy to fly their helicopters over our city. And the wind. When I was mayor, we had major vector problem, mosquitoes. And we had salt water, late every year about September, the high tides, big king tides, and we get into it will cause [a] major bloom of mosquito larva. And I actually had mothers bringing their children into a city council meeting and taking their kids' shirt off and saying, “150 mosquito bites! We need to do something about this.” And they were right. When I meet with Fish and Wildlife, Fish and Game, I literally was told straight to my face that “Mayor, that's a sign of a healthy environment.” Bilbray: And that's when you start saying the system is too insulated from reality. And when the county proposed to go down and spray, and they show that they were using environmentally responsible, they were distillates that were very light, [a] thing called Golden Bear. You had Fish and Wildlife talking about diesel. Diesel hadn't been used for 60 years. And the scientists at the county showed, here's the environmentally responsible way to do it. We can kill the larvae. The thing disperses within two hours doesn't impact the, the vertebrates and whatever. And you had somebody in the position of power at Fish and Wildlife said no. In fact, they said, "If the county goes down there, we'll arrest everybody who's spraying.” And when they said that, I announced an a press release and did a press conference and said, good, because the mayor of Imperial Beach is gonna be the one spraying, and you can arrest the mayor for doing this. Bilbray: And then we can, we can stand up in front of court and let the system go. And I think a lot of that is the street sense I learned in a working-class neighborhood that, just because somebody in authority says something, doesn't mean that it's right. And that, you basically know that, you don't argue it in the streets. You take it to the court where it's not their turf. So one thing you'll learn is never fight somebody on their turf. Find a neutral ground. And the neutral ground would've been the courts. And I was coached on how to operate the equipment. I let the media know I was gonna do it. And sure enough, within a few days, the Fish and Game, Fish and Wildlife reversed their position and allowed it to happen. That shouldn't have to happen! And I'd like to think that that would, that is just because it happens everywhere. But frankly, I think there's a big double standard and the mentality of how people approach that. So, I learned to push the system right from there. And that led to issues with sewage and everything else, is that the system needs to be pushed. That's how you keep it honest. Savo: You talk about how you have to sort of break rules to achieve the ends. And, um… Bilbray: Well, let me clarify. Not, well, not needing to break the rules, but when somebody is making up rules that are not the law, then you not only have a right, you have a responsibility to call it down. And I guess that's the big deal. I'll tell you something. The Simon and Garfunkel song, [The] Sound of Silence is about the sin of being quiet. And I think we always stick to the edict that it's better to remain silent and somebody think that you're stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. I think it's always safer in our society to remain quiet. Um, I think that is as Simon and Garfunkel will say is a cancer, and it doesn't do anybody a service, especially those that are overreaching or whatever that need to be called down. Bilbray: So no, I think the biggest issue that I've always said is that, like a lifeguard, you couldn't stop me from going in the water and rescuing, I call it the tennis ball and the Labrador syndrome. When somebody like a 9/11 [September 11th attack], somebody like myself, when you see somebody in trouble, there's some of us that just have to go. It's just instinctive. And I call it the Labrador and the tennis ball because when you throw a tennis ball off the end of a pier, that Labrador is over the water before he realizes what he's done. It's that instinctive. And, I think that there's just some of us that are hardwired that way. And this one definitely has gotten me in trouble in politics. But I think it's probably one of the biggest things that I would never change in the world. I'd rather get in trouble for speaking out than allow things to happen because I found it safer to remain silent. Savo: Well that's great perspective because I was actually about to ask you, you have a very unique political story in Congress. Were you reelected for a second term, a non-consecutive term. Was there an energy that reignited your motivation to run again? Was the stagnation of the environmental concerns in Imperial County or Imperial Beach the reason that you decided to run again? Bilbray: There was, across the board there were so many opportunities in the environmental, strategies that are abandoned and feel, so, see. I introduced a bill to eliminate the mandate on California to use ethanol. I had the Lung Association come in and literally challenged me that I didn't care about people dying of cancer. My father died of cancer. Lung cancer. But they were going on a certain agenda. And I knew from serving on the Air Resources board that we had found at the Air Resources Board that ethanol was not only not a good, environmental option, but it was a pollutant. And to this day, the federal government does not do total testing on auto emissions because they want to hide the evaporative emission problem with ethanol because there is a huge Archer, Daniels, Midland involvement and involvement in nonprofits that claim to care about it, that Archer, Daniels, Midland, it's good for their business. Bilbray: And I don't mind 'em doing that, but I mind them wrapping themselves in [an] environmental blanket and saying, “God wants you to give me your money.” I call them environmental Jimmy Swaggers. And that doesn't follow the science. And so many people that you'll hear, “Stick to the science, stick to the science,” will abandon the science, not address stationary sources like inappropriate traffic management if we want to reduce air pollution. But the ethanol issue was one that the Air Resources board came to me and asked me to carry. And I knew about it because I just finished serving with them. That kind of thing, I think is essential to do. And I think for the credibility of those of us working on environmental problems, we have to do that. You can't pick and choose, you know, well, I want this one because it's convenient to do and not go the other way. Bilbray: And, I mean, I drove a natural gas car back in the eighties, not many people were talking about that and the flex fuel that you get into it. But, the, the challenge is trying to keep the science up front. Environmental activism is not a theology, it's not a religion. You don't have dogma. It's the best science you have at the time. And when the science tells you that what you thought was factual is not you not only have a right to do that, you have a moral obligation. I mean, it's so hypocritical to claim you're out to save the world, but you kind of ignore the facts when they don't fit you right. And to this day, to this day, I'm looking at what's happening here in California. Traffic Management, a lot of this kind of stuff that we're working on, nobody wants to talk about because it just doesn't fit the doctrine right now because it's sort of what's fashionable. Tijuana sewage was not fashionable. I built a reputation on that because I had no other choice. And right now, we still have that problem. It's worse today than it's ever been. Savo: So--Bilbray: Don't let me get you off your line. Savo: No, no, no. I just wanna make sure that I Bilbray: follow it up. Savo: I love, I love everything that you're-- Bilbray: Double back on it and get anything I passed that if I didn't hit it. What was your real question? Let me try to get right onto it. Savo: No, I was actually gonna ask if you could elaborate on some of the bills that you had authored, co-sponsored to address the sewage crisis. 'Cause you had two propositions to address the crisis. One, which was the expansion of the South Bay the wastewater treatment plant. And the other was a, uh, I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing it here, Bagua project. Bilbray: Bagua. Well, first of all, one of the things is make sure that the laws follow the science. And one of the things I got involved with that I got attacked for being anti-environment is [to] eliminate the secondary mandate [Secondary treatment of water through the quality control process] at Point Loma. And this is where people, you know, just get so frustrated that they care so much that they turn their brain off. They're leading with their heart and obviously, secondary is better than primary. So why wouldn't we go to secondary? And the fact is, is that it was lucky that there was a physician, I mean a lawyer who, named Bob Simmons. And he actually was just absolutely sharp on the line. And a lot of us, the line was always said that he could see it clearly, even though he was blind, that the law was hurting the environment. Bilbray: And what happened was he had run into the environmental impact report for going to secondary at Point Loma, they went through all the assessments from the environmental point of view, and they said that, “Because we're in this…” the outfall had been taken so far out to sea, was under three [thermoclines], the current of the Japanese current was dissipating. And, and the ocean was assimilating, that there was no net degradation of the sewer outfall at what they call advanced primary, about 89% of all solids taken out to about 94%. And then they looked at, okay, we're going to build, do this, do this, do this. And when they looked to go to secondary, the environmental impact report and the EIS, the environmental impact statement said, the building, the plants and doing all of that, will cause more environmental damage than anything that advanced primary was doing. Bilbray: So the answer to a problem was worse than the problem. And you had people that say, “We don't care. Secondary is the standard, is the law.” And Mr. Simmons talked to me about it, and he was right. And I took it to Congress and said, when an environmental law hurts the environment, it's being implemented wrong. No one passes an environmental law with the intention to hurt the environment. And, so here you had the scientists gave us a report and everybody wanted to ignore it because it meant that we had to go back and rethink an agenda. And what happened was, is that the Activated Sludge Mandate was meant for in-water, freshwater inland rivers and lakes where dissolved oxygen is a big deal. But in the open ocean, dissolved oxygen is plentiful because with so much action in the ocean, that they were taking something that was meant for ponds, rivers, and, small estuaries, freshwater estuaries and trying to apply it to the open ocean. Bilbray: And it hurt the environment. So, [I] actually had Donna Fry attack me for, well, that was because she meant well, but she was, she was ignorant about the situation. In fact, I think the history shows eventually she ended up changing her position too. That along with the, you know, we were talking about some of the other issues on the Tijuana situation. The Bagua [project] was recognizing that the problem was that Mexico did not have the problem. And I'll just tell you this, I have the pleasure of meeting every year with members of the Congress in Mexico and astonishing with all the talk about how people, we are neighbors of Mexico, how few members of Congress actually would go to these meetings. And once a year we meet in the U.S. or meet in Mexico and we talk. There was a gentleman who represented Tijuana in the Congress. Bilbray: And after the meetings, whatever, over a couple beers, he made a comment to me and he says, “Brian, your problem is that it's not our problem.” [He] says, “Your problem is to figure out how to make it our problem.” I said, what do you mean? He says, “You realize that when we dump the sewage, we don't have to pay for the chemicals, we don't have to pay for the pumping, we don't have to pay for the maintenance. You know, it just goes away. And what you gotta do is figure out how to make it our problem.” Well, one way we make it their problem, and the only way that problem is ever gonna be addressed, is when Mexico and Tijuana needs that gallon of sewage to turn into their next gallon of drinking water. And Bagua was a way of being able to do that in a third world country. Bilbray: And that was to get Tijuana on a total recycling program. Where they absolutely had to depend on recycling to be able to provide the water they needed for their country. I mean, for their city. And the concept was that we weren't going to send money into a third world country like we're doing, and we are gonna do again, because what happens is the money gets diverted to other places. A good example is when we first built the Banderas treatment plant in Mexico. I knew the engineering on that, I was in the negotiations in 1985 in Mexico City. Mexico wanted to get a grant to bring a million and a half acre feet of Colorado water to Tijuana through Otay Mesa, Mesa de Otay. Bilbray: And so we were looking at that plan. What we recognized is that, we were gonna send water down there, and the source of the pollution that pollutes our estuaries and our beaches actually comes from the United States. Because without that water, there would not be sewage flowing into the United States. So then their line was, we can't support this unless you can guarantee that this water's not gonna come back polluted, in 1985. And, the entire concept was we tried that, we were looking at that. And when they built the Banderas plant, it just shows you the little corruption that gets involved in these things. And it's not, and you know, if you, if you see the details, you kind of start understanding better why you have these in third world countries. They were open ponds and they had a thing called an aqua lift. Bilbray: And the aqua lift was a tube that air would be pumped in. And it, the aqua lift pumps the water by the bubbles coming up, draws it in. And the Jetco program with the aqua lifts that were engineered for these ponds had converging turbines. So, one turbine would turn one way, the other one would turn the other way, and as the bubble went up, it had all these turbines going there and dissolved the oxygen into the water so much better. And that raised it really up [oxygen levels]. So that was, and when we did the plan, that was all in the engineering. When they went to purchase it, somebody went over to Mexico and said, “Look, we've got the aqua lift and it's only 20% of the costs of these Jetcos. These Jetcos get patents. We've figured out how to do it without it being so expensive.” Bilbray: What they had was a tube with baffles. Now, what happened was it only had 20% of the dissolved oxygens that the other one had. So, the entire plant’s were only a quarter, you know, of what they planned on. Because they had changed this one component. And some people say, “Well, you can't expect them to do that.” Getting back the recycling is where we've got to get it done. And by Agua you have a private company bonded in the United States in Mexico, and they do not get paid for building anything, for digging anything. They only got paid for per gallon they treated, they would then be paid for that. So, outcome-based environmental strategy, and that's one of the things that I'm absolutely an advocate for is we've gotta get back to the concept that the outcome is what matters. Bilbray: You can build all these plants, you can do all these regulations, you can do all these things in environmental strategies, but if the outcome doesn't reflect your goals, then you not only have a right but a responsibility to change this. The regulations are useless And if, it doesn't work out. One of my biggest frustrations working with the Republicans in Congress was they could not see, and John Boehner, I tried to tell 'em and trying to get people to understand there are environmental regulations and you guys only see it as being bad for business. I can show you where it's bad for the environment. It's some of the worst stuff is done in the name of the environment. And so many of my Republican colleagues couldn't just get around, you know, just didn't see that as being important. I thought it's essential! Bilbray: It's the one place you could get the left and the right working together if they're willing to, you know, turn their brains on and open their eyes. And the Bagua was, the whole strategy was get there. Bagua was attacked because somebody was gonna make money off of cleaning up the sewage. And what's sad, you have nonprofits, you have corporations making money off the problem, but not solving the problem. And I actually watched them dismember a package that was put together with a Democrat and myself, [Congressman and former San Diego Mayor] Bob Filner and myself. And believe me, Bob Filner was no joy to work with. In fact, even the Democrats were shocked that I could work with him. But it was because, you know, you play the hand that the voters deal you and Bob was the the congressman from the area. And we worked out this way that says, these guys don’t get one cent unless they treat it, and they only get what they treat. Bilbray: And that was attacked because it was private operation. And people said, “That's immoral to have private companies doing these kinds of works.” Well, ladies and gentlemen, every project in Mexico is done by private contractors. And that's the naivete of people in the United States. Not taking the time to culturally understand that the Frontera is a different world. And that's where we get back to this issue of, we take things for granted here and other people just cannot comprehend it. It’s a quite unique experience we have by growing up on the Frontera. So, it paid off on that. Bagua was killed, and by people that now are crying, “Why has the problem gone from 45 to 55 million gallons of raw sewage pouring in every day?” Savo: Wow. You mentioned working with Bob Filner and the absolute, I don't want paraphrase here, but the absolute nightmare must have been to work and to kind of piece together this bill. How, how, [I’m] trying to phrase the right question here. Bilbray: Oh, lemme say Bob, Bob wasn't bad for me because I was on my home turf. Bob Filner was a carpetbagger. Okay. He, and I don't mind people come in and go back and forth, but, he ran in the South Bay because the South Bay was vulnerable. You realize that Juan Vargas is the only other congressman that ever represented the South Bay that was from the South Bay? Except for myself. That's an indictment to the process. But Bob came in, I had worked with Bob when he was a council member, worked with him before I went to Congress and before he went to Congress. And so there was relationships there that, again, that local government gave me a big advantage. I mean, his wife actually worked for me when I was chairman of LAFCO [San Diego County Local Agency Formation Commission], when I was at the county. And she was the director. And so, you know, relationships do matter, you know, human to human. And Bob knew that I knew his district better than he did. And I think he gave me more respect than I've seen him give anybody else. Not that he couldn't go unglued sometimes. Savo: I mean, you talk about these networking skills that you've developed in the county and then you obviously exercised it in the Congress. Could you speak a little to how you reach across the aisle when it came to these issues? You mentioned that you always have to look not only to the right, but you also have to look to the left. How did you find that goldilocks zone? How did you…? Bilbray: You pick up the tool that you need to get the job done. I actually had people attack me. [Congressman] Randy Cunningham hated Filner, hated that I was working with him. I actually had, you know, Republicans say, and I had reporters say, “You got Bob Filner on 80% of your legislation, why'd you do that?” And I said, because if I've got Bob Filler on my legislation, I got every left-wing crazy voting for me except Maxine Waters, you know? And so, I understood it, but growing up in my family I'm always used to that. My cousin was the congressman from Las Vegas, Democrat, Harry Reid's best friend. Harry Reid carried my bills. And they, you know, the concept that party line should be a barrier is absolutely absurd. And for those of us that are willing to cross the aisle, it's a real advantage. Bilbray: I mean, I prided myself on a lot of issues. In fact, the day I was sworn back into Congress, I made a gesture for a big reason. I was one of twenty-seven people in the history of the country that had come back from a different district. I purposely, when I gave my acceptance, at being sworn in. I did not stay on the Republican side of the aisle. There's two podiums, Democrat and Republican. I crossed over onto the Democrat side and I did my acceptance from the Democrat side. And there's an issue that you call in theater, they call violating your aesthetic distance. You're violating the presidium. You are-- like theater in the round, you're going into the audience. And they don't have the security of being away and sort of safe. And I did, I violated that aesthetic distance by moving into the Democrat side Bilbray: so I could talk to them personally one-on-one, in their face. Not from over here in the Republican corner. And that is a technique, but I think that it should, you know, people should use it more often. If people are safe hiding in their corners, you got an obligation to go pry 'em out. And, you know, Bob was obviously a real challenge. And he had a lot of his, you know, I worked with people in Congress and there's a lot of demons in Congress. But you know, who was it? You know, Plato said that, “Those who should rule won’t.” And I'm saying, look, normal people don't get involved with politics. So you get stuck with those of us that will. I actually had a gentleman named Allen UK, [the] man who gave me the idea of carrying the bill to bring the, the Midway into the county. Bilbray: And he wanted to get involved with politics. And what happened was so interesting is he ended up running against me. We ran against each other to replace Cunningham in the 50th. But he came to me and asked me, and gave me a compliment. And he says, “You are somebody that'll tell me what, what is the secret of being successful in politics? You've done it since you were a kid, Brian.” And, he says, “What do I need to do to be successful?” And I said, “Well, Allen, are you into pain?” And he says,” Oh, I don't mind it.” I said, “No, no, Allen, are you into it? That this is like surfing a big wave in cold water. This is like playing football, you know, you've got to be into it. You've gotta, you've gotta, you've gotta love hitting people and getting hit. Bilbray: Normal people don't do this kind of thing.” And you've gotta, I picture it as this must be how women approach childbirth. This must be important. Nobody would do anything that hurts this much if it wasn't important. And that, you know, that's why normal people usually don't get into politics cuz it's counterintuitive of everything. We're not, but we should be reflecting. But I think that there's a whole lot of good people in the game. There's a whole lot of people that are in the game for the wrong reason. And the trouble is the people that are affected by people in Washington and local government. Don't, man, people grossly underestimate the influence of local government. Most important stuff is the council mayor. And, when bad people get in there, it's the weak and the vulnerable to get hurt the most. And they get it from places that you wouldn't even think about it. Savo: Going back to about the local government and, you know, we're talking about that the federal government's kind of the problem to the solution. It's very counterintuitive. It's not, it's not the actual problem solver, it's the problem itself. What would you, what would you like to see change in Imperial Beach in terms of the structure or in terms of the environmental concerns? What do you think would probably be the most, beneficial, not outcome, but the most beneficial factor to help? Bilbray: We look, I had the privilege of serving in many different levels of environmental administration. Air Resources Board is the most aggressive, most successful environmental agency in the history of the world. They are equated to being Nazis because of a lot of stuff. And you get involved with stuff that you never would dream. I mean, I spent, I knew I'd reached the epitome of my political career when we spent three days on underarm deodorants. Okay. But I also watched Air Resources Board do the political moonwalk and backpedal so fast when they were talking about outlawing two-cycle chainsaws and then all the lumberjacks showed up at a meeting. But that application of people from different backgrounds, but the biggest key there is so essential. But having a scientific group to advise them and having that kind of interplay between people that are experienced in the field and those who are making the policy decisions and the flexibility, [it] really works into a large degree. Bilbray: But that can become out of control too. That can become tyrannical. I think the, the biggest one is looking at the difference between the Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act. The Clean Water Act is process based. You will treat this to this level, you will do this, this, this, and this. And then if you do this, it's okay If you pollute, you just do this. And we get into it. The Clean Air Act said if you've got dirty air, you figure out, you put together a plan to address this and bring it forward to us and show that you're gonna do it, and then we'll monitor you. But you'll do it, and we'll give you the flexibility to solve it and to solve, to take care of it. But, there's no limit of what you have to do. Bilbray: And if you don't do it, you lose all your interstate transportation funds, you have a hammer. That outcome-based environmental strategy is so much more advanced, and it's astonishing in so many places that we're still locked into process base. And the process base, I think a lot of it is, you can pick winners and losers there. You go to electric cars and you know who's gonna win in electric cars. And you had, you had Boone Pickens trying to get, um, you know, trucks lined up on natural gas and nobody gave a damn when Mr. Pickens was saying it. And, that you've, you've gotta say where are you gonna go with your reductions and where you're gonna go with your strategies. And that's where I just really think we fall down. Bilbray: It's so much easier for a regulator just to say, you treat to this, and then I can walk away with it. Tijuana sewage, the Clean Water Act, was an advantage. But people who claim to be environmentalists blew it up because they thought they were gonna go clean it up by getting the secondary. By not being a secondary, you then had this situation like we have with Point Loma, where you have a consent decree where they have to do this, this, this, this, this. Not in the law. Okay. If you're not going to go to secondary, you have to do all kinds of other things like recycling water up at La Jolla. All the recycling program was all part of this deal that the lawyer from the Sierra Club worked with me on. But if we went to secondary, like we did at um, in Mexico, the Mexican plant at the international treatment plant, then once you go to secondary, you're free and clear. Bilbray: You don't have no obligations. Okay. Now, now the pollution can flow. And that's what we've got right now, that we actually reduce the capability of treating the volume because instead of removing 89% to 92%, 94% solids at advanced primary, we now go up to 98%, 95%, we got this number, but it's only like 8%, you know, of solids more. So, if you could treat, a gallon here and you get 80% removal, but here you get 95% removal. But if you go to 95% removal, you can only treat a quarter of the water to do that. Well, this had the illusion in environmental groups, so this is better. No, it’s not. You are actually gonna have more pollution going into the ocean because you went to secondary because you’re not treating. [They say]” Well. What we don't collect, we're not liable for.” And say that's how the IBWC was able, their capacity dropped dramatically. And, it's just frustrating to see people that mean well, but don't look at the numbers and don't look at the total impact. And they don't. And really the problem is, so few of people that are involved in this stuff actually live down at the border. Bilbray: And that's, that's the frustration. People are insulated from the outcome. And today, we do not have a recycling program in Mexico today because people who claim they cared about the environment killed the Bagua project because they're worried about some capitalists make money on recycling water. Well, guess what, guys? You got Poseidon up in Carlsbad. You got people, private money all over this country right now doing it and you're gonna do it. That's part of, that's a tool in our toolbox to be able to clean up the environment, shouldn't, allow some kind of misguided theology to stand in the way of good science. Savo: As we're sort of wrapping up our interview here were there any bills that you wish would've passed? Not just related to the environment, but in general as your, as your, both your terms in Congress? Bilbray: Look, I got things done that… In many different ways. Bilbray: The, um, Bilbray: Dirty little secret is probably one of the most efficient things I got done was you open up, look at your driver's license. The real ID bill was my piece of legislation. I did it while I was in my forced sabbatical. And I did it because a group that had worked with me on border problems came to me and said, would you carry this? And I was allowed, because I was a former member, or I was a former voting member, that the chairman of the committee, Mr. Sensenbrenner, actually had to call me into a conference of his Republicans so I could chastise Republicans about the fact that it's not a right-wing conspiracy to have a minimum standard for the ID that you need to get on an airplane. And they say, “Yeah, but this is gonna be a national ID card.” And you had ultra-conservatives that were gonna kill it. And I went in and says, “No, this is the alternative to a national ID card.” You have state IDs, but they have federal standards. And those standards then eliminate the need to have a federal ID. You have. The states are presenting what is, which is enforceable as a federal ID. And getting that passed, is really a lesson for our everybody to look at. It is just now finally becoming mandated. How many years has it been since 9/11? Savo: About 22, 22. Bilbray: And they said, just let me back up and explain why 9/11 is mentioned. The terrorists on 9/11 did not have to show their Saudi passports because they went to Virginia and they got a Virginia license plate, even though, the license, even though they were illegally in the country, they got an ID that got them on that plane and killed over 2,000 people, Americans. And, then when Virginia stopped it after 9/11, they stopped giving it to anybody who [applied] and they required that you have to be legally here, you have to have the proper documentation, whatever, to get it. Maryland was giving it, given it to [people who] didn't do it. So that's when people start sitting around saying, this could happen again. And the people may think that, “Oh, well that's punitive not to give it to somebody who's undocumented.” Bilbray: Well, what, what do you use as a basis for your document if there's no documents, the person has any documents you’re wide open. So that one has been real easy. And it actually goes to something I learned my first year in politics, was 1976 and California implemented a digital code on our driver's licenses, and it was a barcode. And I remember going through hearings as a little 25-year-old city councilman about [how] with this barcode you can put it a put it in a reader and you could get all the information, you can get the picture. In fact, and to this day, I remember them selling that. That all we have to do is get these readers for every squad car, every cruiser. And a police officer doesn't have to sit down and do the paperwork. Bilbray: He can punch it in. The trouble is, uh, fifty years later, they still haven't put the readers in the squad cars. And one of the things was to say it was really important you pull somebody over that if they put this reader in and that the picture on their screen is not the picture on the card. You know, officers are now warned that there's a problem here. But a lot of that is, you know, just osmosis, you're around it enough, you pick it up. And I was able to pull out my California card to these right wingers who didn't want to do it and then pull out my credit card. And, I just said, um, guys, do you have a credit card? “Yeah, we had credit card.” Do you have a …, I said, the government already knows all about it. Bilbray: If you've got a cell phone, they know where you are because we required the, 911 code to be able to track it down because somebody crashed in Colorado, went into a snowplow, and the kids were calling for911 and they couldn't find them. And the story at the hearing was they, Colorado had every, all the state troopers run with sirens on. And then when the kids heard the siren, they said, okay, they stopped the cars and they turned off the sirens until the kids said, stop. And so they knew which cruiser was in the area where these kids were. And I tell the story because that led up to the fact that now every phone is tracked. And so, these conservative guys, I said, they already know where you are. They know what you're buying so to worry about Bilbray: This driver's license thing is absolutely absurd. So that's how we got that through. But there was, you know, look, there's things that you get to do that you don't even talk about. I mean, one of the best things I ever did never even was public. And that is we had a local business that offered to give their supercomputer to the federal government. They had worked with the UC [University of California] system and they offered to give it, as long as I kept it secret, as long as we didn't say who they were. And it was a local business here that gave their supercomputer, as a mainframe for the genome program. And that mainframe and that genome program, ten years later, when my daughter was fighting stage three C cancer at 20% chance of living with melanoma. A 20% chance of living two more years, that's all. Bilbray: And that mainframe and that system that was set up ten years before, found the b wrap mutation on my daughter's cancer. And that's what saved her life. And I have two grandchildren because these businessmen quietly contributed to this. And I just happened to be on the committee, the Health and Environment Committee of the Energy and Commerce Committee. I was on the committee that was working on the genome program. And that deal has not only saved my daughter's life and created the two grandchild children's lives, but have done a whole lot more. I mean, how many millions of people have been saved on that? And nobody even knows that we did that. And that's what's important to being at the right place where you can help, being the lifeguard, being able to run out and, you know, be part of that. And you, you can't, you couldn't give me a million dollars to change that. The little things you do in the back and aren't talked about is what really matters. Savo: Well, Mr. Bilbray, this was an excellent interview. I appreciate you for your time. It was a real pleasure. I thank you a lot. Bilbray: Well, thank you very much. And, if you have any other wines, let me know. I'm unemployed now, so, as long as I'm not sailing my boat to Mexico or riding my Harley over to meet my, see my cousins in Las Vegas, I'll be around. In fact, we are, [on] the 27th of this month. I'm gonna represent my cousin who just passed away this year. They have the 20th anniversary of his elementary school they named after him. See, they'll do that for Democrats, but Republican will never get it [laughs]. But that's okay. Well, my luck, they'll name a sewage plan after me. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml BilbrayBrian_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-03_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bilbray, Brian. Interview April 3rd, 2023. Description An account of the resource Brian Bilbray is a former Representative in the Congress of the United States. He served as a Republican representative for the 49th district (now 53rd) in California from 1995 until 2001 and then again from 2006 until 2013. In this narration Bilbray discusses how he got his start in politics as well as how his political actions impacted the environment and economy in the frontera border region of San Diego and Mexico. Bilbray also talks about how he navigated the politics of Washington through his bipartisan actions. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-056 Subject The topic of the resource Borderlands Environmentalism and politics -- California -- San Diego Environmentalism and politics -- Mexico -- Tijuana Imperial Beach (Calif.). Mayor Metropolitan government Politics and government -- 20th century Politics and government -- 21st century United States. Congress. House Water rights -- Mexico Water rights -- United States Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brian Bilbray Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Mexican-American Border Region Imperial Beach (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Brian Bilbray License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Community history History Department internship Politics and governance Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steve Wagner OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Stone Brewing Company;Brewing history;Brewers;San Diego breweries;IPA OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Wagner, Steve. Interview October 24, 2018. SC027-064 01:00:20 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Stone Brewing Company ; Brewing history ; Brewers ; San Diego breweries ; IPA Steve Wagner Judith Downie audio 1.0:|18(14)|35(14)|50(7)|62(19)|73(3)|91(19)|104(5)|128(4)|146(11)|162(19)|175(12)|196(3)|208(16)|227(11)|244(8)|265(16)|290(2)|310(11)|322(7)|343(9)|360(13)|375(11)|390(12)|413(13)|427(3)|444(5)|463(15)|477(15)|493(19)|505(13)|523(17)|540(9)|568(4)|591(3)|613(16)|629(11)|637(10)|654(5)|669(14)|684(6)|699(10)|721(10)|739(6)|754(15)|773(2)|787(16)|803(15)|820(9)|842(6)|856(5)|875(17)|896(12)|918(19)|933(7)|945(10)|966(14)|986(15)|998(10)|1016(10)|1030(6)|1036(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4c12a198b29a2ac447131d9f6636ed05.mp3 Other audio Oral history Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Judith Downie: Today is October 24th, 2018. Judith Downie interviewer for the CSUSM Brewchive® with Steve Wagner, co-founder and co-owner of Stone Brewing. Steve Wagner: (Aside to office staff) Okay. Don't have to worry about that. Alright, great. Downie: So if you will first state your name and position. Wagner: Okay. This is Steve Wagner, I am the cofounder and president of Stone Brewing Company. Downie: Okay. And so if we could get into a little bit of your own background, what the path that led you to Stone would be very informative. Wagner: Yes, absolutely. My story starts in Evanston, Illinois suburb of Chicago where I was born. 1958 and my parents had attended Northwestern University. So, I grew up in the Chicago area until I was about 10 years old and my family moved to Los Angeles, California. My father took a job with Mattel Toy Company , which was very exciting for me and my brothers. In fact, I think that's where my first entrepreneurial venture was. I would get some of the new Hot Wheels™ cars before they were released and I would sell them to my school mates, at highly inflated prices because they were collecting them and they could get them before they came out. Downie: Yeah, hot demand for something nobody else had. Boy, you were doing it… Wagner: It was better, I made more money than the lemonade stand. I'll put it that way. Downie: Now of course, did you ever get into trouble for doing that either from Mattel or from the school because you were conducting business on school property? Wagner: Nope. Never got caught. So, okay, let's see. So, interests before brewing. While I was a lifelong musician, I started studying piano growing up in Chicago. When I think when I was six years old, I started taking piano lessons and played all the way through high school, had some incredible teachers and actually in high school I started playing some guitar and bass and started playing in some bands, some high school bands. And then, college I went to UC Santa Cruz. So, I was an English lit major and still played some music, with some friends and things. And then after college I moved back to Los Angeles and I was working in some restaurants and, you know, basically trying to figure out what to do and ended up meeting some other musicians at a party and we decided to form a band. And that was the beginning of the Balancing Act, which was the, I guess you'd say, the most successful band I was in. We ended up self-producing our first record and putting it out on our own label. So again, some, good entrepreneurial experience. Downie: So was this an LP? Wagner: It was an EP actually , an extended play. It was six songs I believe were on it. Just vinyl, this was right before CDs kind of became the new format. And, yeah, it was fun and we got some nice critical recognition and acclaim and, you know, played a lot in, in Southern California. And then, we actually got signed to I.R.S. records, which was a pretty cool record label at that time. And we ended up recording and releasing two albums for that label. Got to tour all over the US multiple times and every college town now I think in the US. (laughs) Those were our people. Downie: And so this was still as The Balancing Act? Wagner: Yes. Yep. And so, yeah, it was, it was a really great experience and it was four of us and we all wrote songs and sang. It was very much a collective and we had a lot of fun. Yeah, let's see. So, then I started, uh, I think that band, eventually we went our separate ways and I played in some other groups, a band in LA called the Bedshredders and another band called Walker Stories. I did some studio work and played, you know, played on recordings for other people and things like that. But I was kind of at that point thinking, okay, I was, I got married. I was not that keen to go back out on tour and on the road and do things like that. So, I was trying to think of what the next step in my career would be. And one of the guys in, actually I played with in both the Bedshredders and Walker Stories invited me over to do some homebrewing at his house. He was a homebrewer and I went over and did that and was immediately captivated by the process of brewing your own beer. I was already a beer fan and I mean, my touring days, you know, you'd always get, the band would get, a case of beer and I’d like try to get them to give us something, you know, a little out of the ordinary or something local. But there wasn't much choice in those days, but still enjoyed it. Downie: This would have been about what year? Wagner: This was the mid to late eighties, early nineties. Downie: So craft brewing is just starting to get a hold in places? Wagner: Yeah, you know, Sierra Nevada was around, but I think they were still really only California probably. Yeah, there were a few other things, but not much. So, let's see. So, yeah, I started homebrewing on my own ‘cause I wanted to do it more often and you know, really read up and studied as much as I could about it and brewed a lot and joined some Homebrew clubs in Los Angeles and really tried to learn as much as I could about it and do it in my spare time . And, as part of that journey, I wanted to, they were offering classes at (University of California) Davis in Northern California, extension classes on advanced home brewing and sensory evaluation of beer. And so I decided to make the trip up there one weekend to, you know, try to learn some more and check out the school up there. And so I went, I think on a Friday there was an advanced home brewing class that I went to and then on Saturday it was the sensory evaluation of beer class. And I look across the room and I see this long-haired guy and I go, ‘Wait a minute, that's my rock and roll landlord, Greg Koch.’ And it was funny, you know, I didn't, it was out of context and I think it took me a little while to figure out who it was and I'm like, ‘Oh yeah’, ‘cause we didn't know each other that well. We were acquaintances. Because he tells the story, he didn't know me that well ‘cause my band actually paid that rent on time. So, we rented music rehearsal space from his company. Downie: Now this was the LA location? Wagner: Yeah, downtown Los Angeles. Downie: There was a San Francisco location for a while. Wagner: Yeah. This was the downtown Los Angeles location. And so, you know, when we had the first break I went up and said hi and we started talking a little bit and realized we had a mutual interest in beer and craft beer and everything. And it was, it was cool. That as part of the sensory evaluation class, If you were a homebrewer, they said bring your beer and we'll taste it. And I had brought some of my beers and we tasted them and people liked them. Greg really liked them. Ironically, it was, you know, since we were such an anti-fruit beer brewery in the beginning, it was a peach ale that I had made, ‘cause I was actually, one of my side jobs when I was a musician, was working for a farmer who came down for the Santa Monica farmer's market and I would sell his stone fruits, peaches and stuff. And so I got some awesome peaches and I decided to make a beer out of it. So funny. Downie: So leading the way with fruit beer. Wagner: Yup. Yup. And so yeah, I think, you know, that's sort of me running into him there and drinking some beers together and stuff. You know, here this guy was a successful entrepreneur, and I was interested in getting into beer and we, you know, we started talking about maybe we should start our own brewery. I think we were both back in LA and we, you know, we did some home brews together and just kinda hung out together and started talking about things and seeing if we could see a way to do, you know, to start our brewery. So. Downie: Yeah. So Davis I think was in ‘94, ’93? Wagner: ’93 I think. I'm gonna say ‘93. Downie: I've got Greg’s textbooks from that. Wagner: Well we went back for some additional classes too. That might've been in ‘94, but I think that initial one was before that. Downie: So it really considering that Stone itself opened up in mid-year 1996... Wagner: Yeah. Downie: You worked on a pretty fast track to get Stone up and going. It seems like compared to what I'm seeing for some breweries now. Wagner: Yeah. I don't know. It felt like a pretty deliberate track to me ‘cause I actually, you know, in, in between there, I moved up to, had an opportunity to house sit for my brother and his soon to be wife up in Portland because they were taking the better part of a year off as a sabbatical. They both worked for Intel. They needed somebody to house sit for them. And so my wife Laura and I volunteered to go up and do that. And it, part of my thinking was, well, I'll find a job at a brewery up there, you know, get some hands-on experience and really make sure I, I enjoy the work and, you know, am as passionate about the work as I think I would be, you know. Yeah, so I think that was Spring of ‘94 that we moved up there and landed a job brewing for Pyramid shortly thereafter. Up in Kalama, Washington, you know, 30-minute commute North of Portland. And yeah, started, I mean I think I had two weeks of training and then they handed me the keys for the midnight night shift, the lone brewer in this pretty sizable plant at that point I was like, “Wow, this is happening pretty fast.’ But uh, Downie: How big was Pyramid? How many barrels do you remember? Wagner: I think they did about 90,000 barrels when I was there in ‘90. I was there through fall of ‘95, I guess. So, a little over a year, year and a half of it. It was great experience and I really loved, loved the work. You know, just the hands on of brewing and being part of a brewery like that. I had a lot of great mentors that I was able to learn a lot from . It was everything I had hoped it would be. In fact, I enjoyed it so much. I was happy to just keep working there. And eventually Greg got impatient like, ’Are we gonna do this or what?’ But I was like, ‘I don't know, I've enjoyed living in Portland.’ Downie: Yeah, it’s beautiful up there. Wagner: I’m enjoying working for a brewery, but you know, I realized ‘Yeah if we're going to do this, we need to do it.’ So, you know, so in some ways to me that seems like a longer timeline because I actually, you know, took the time to go get some hands-on experience and do that rather than just, ah, you know (inaudible). Downie: That was a very good deliberate move though to make sure that, you know, it wasn't just the activity of brewing but you could actually face the day-to-day work. Wagner: Yeah. Yup and it really helped me in, you know, shopping for our original equipment and putting the brewery together and how we wanted to do things and Pyramid had a pretty good focus on quality of their beer. And, you know, so that became one of our things at Stone too, was to, to create really consistent beers and beers that had decent shelf life. You know, the people would have the same experience every time they tried one. And that, that ended up being crucial for us because, you know, opening in 1996, that was kinda the beginning of the first shakeout in craft beer where a lot of people had rushed in who maybe didn't have brewing expertise and were looking to be quick buck and stuff. And there was a lot of issues with, you know, bad beer out there that wasn't consistent or had off flavors or different things. And so you know, I think that the time I spent at Pyramid really benefited us. The ability to pull off quality and consistency. So, because you know, when we first opened Stone and go out to try to sell our beer, I mean, Greg was the, you know, he was our lone salesman at the time. That's what I mean, he'd go out or it was all these, a lot of people who didn't want to take craft beer, they said, ‘No, we've done it’s a fad. You know , it's like the beer never tasted the same twice or you couldn't deliver it when we needed it. So we're not doing that anymore, you know?’ So that's what we were up against when we started the company. It was possibly the worst possible time to start it. Downie: Well, you sink or swim. Wagner: Yep, exactly. Downie: And so since you've been talking about your education, did you do any other education after opening Stone or were you just so busy with running Stone? Wagner: You know, before we had opened Stone, Greg and I would go to the craft brewers conference, the national conference, the annual conference. So, we would go to that every year. And as part of that, you know, obviously there there's a trade show, but they also do a lot of educational seminars and things like that. So, continued to take advantage of that. Even in the early days we would go to that and helped us keep up with what was happening in, you know, brewing techniques and science and equipment and stuff. Um, I'm trying to remember. I think I might have taken some other classes, but I think they might've been more finance- and accounting-focused because I had sort of assumed that hat in the brewery too, you know. It was interesting the dynamics when you start, at first I felt like all the pressure was on me, you know, to order the brewery equipment, get it installed, get it, get it working, get the beer to where I want it, you know, get the beer brewed and then all of a sudden all the pressure shifts to Greg. Right. It's like, ‘Well, here's all these kegs. You better go sell it.’ (Wagner and Downie laugh.) And to his credit, you know, he did it. But at that time, you know, maybe I was only brewing once a week or something. So, I took on the task of, you know, the invoices are coming in and collecting payments and paying our vendors and doing all that and just getting into the, you know, the accounting, finance end of it. And uh, never had really had experience doing that. But I kind of learned by doing and I realized I enjoyed being familiar with the numbers and understanding what was happening to the company, financially. So I really, you know, kind of had a… Downie: Somebody who got to watch those numbers. Wagner: Yes. Yup. It was important. Downie: So that does kind of answer down here in the Stone section. I did ask about your role in Stone's early years besides brewing. And of course, I have photographs from Greg's collection of all of you doing stuff. You know, building and you know, moving equipment and all that sort of thing. Wagner: Yeah. ‘Cause you know Greg had construction experience from building his rehearsal studio and that sort of stuff. So, he, he was very savvy with contractors and how to do that kind of stuff. So I focused more on, you know, figuring out the right brewery equipment for us and finding the best deal on that and getting it shipped. And he did a lot of the, you know, the construction stuff that we needed at the brewery, the trench drains, the different things. Downie: Was there ever a discussion between you and Greg about how the jobs were going to fall out or you just said, Greg, you've got the MBA, you've got , you know, and you just kind of naturally took that on and like you say, you were brewing once a week, so somebody had to deal with the invoicing, and all of the rest. Wagner: You know, there was always more than, you know, there was always too much to do. So it was, it was very much a chip in where you could ever, you could help type of situation, you know, whether it was deliver your keg to a customer who had run out over the weekend or something. You know, we both did a lot of that. You know, I would go out and do sales calls and things too, you know, to, to try to expand our, our impact. Yeah, it's very much a, you do whatever it takes type of thing. Downie: And Pizza Port was the first, in Solana Beach, was the first location to take a keg? Wagner: Yep. Yep. Downie: ‘Cause I've seen the plaque down there. Wagner: Yep. Yep. Greg, he tells a good story about that too. It gave us a very unrealistic view of the distribution business because they came and picked up the first keg ‘cause they wanted to be the first. We are like, ‘Oh this is easy. Everybody just comes to you and gets it.’ Right. Downie: Yeah. There you go. Wagner: That might've been the last time anybody did that. Downie: Other than maybe somebody picked up a keg for their own personal party, you know? Wagner: Yeah. Downie: You know you learn as you go along because that's really, there were so few models for a craft brewery, you know, a smaller brewery. You know, you can't take the models that work for AB (Anheuser Busch) or anybody else and apply them to you. It just doesn't work. Okay. So, um, we'll jump back up the list here. How, how, and why the name Stone Brewing. Oh good. You're laughing. Wagner: You can see the list of the names from the wheat beer that we did. We, we came up with a lot of names and we disagreed quite a bit about names, you know, I think, which was good. It kind of helped us make sure that we came up with something that we both thought was good and that usually it was better than something that only one of us thought was good. So , we went through a lot of lists of names and a lot of rejection of names that that didn't work for us. And, you know, I mean we came up on a deadline, right? We had called our corporation Koochenvagners kind of a play out our two names, but we're coming up to a deadline to, you know, we wanted to release a beer and we didn't have a name yet. And so we're feeling the pressure of that. And I think Greg came in with the name Stone one day. I think he might've had umlauts over it or something like that. (Laughs.) But, but there was something about it that I liked that it was just a simple and kind of classic and, not tied geographically to any place, you know, because we weren't sure we wanted that. We didn't, you know, there already was a San Diego Brewing Company, there already was a San Marcos Brewing Company. We kind of wanted to do something different. So, and I think also it stimulated a lot of kind of creative marketing ideas too. You know, the, you know, that as we thought of things that were made of stone and that the gargoyle kind of came out of that and our, you know, original tap handles were beach stones that we'd collect at the beach, which is probably illegal now, but we don't do it anymore. Yeah. It's funny because one of the (laughs) Downie: Probably the statute of limitations is out by now. Wagner: We started draft only, so we didn't have bottles, but one of the, the ideas that I came up with, you know, as we were thinking of slogans and stuff was, well Greg, our first one was “Welcome to the Stone Age”, you know, which is Greg's, which is kind of clever. I like that one. But I came up with one “Leave no stone unturned”, which we never actually used that. But now it's like a, you know we’re in a lawsuit with Keystone (MillerCoors) about them shortening their name to Stone. Now, they use that actually, which is funny. Downie: Oh, okay. Wagner: (Laughs.) A little side humor here. Downie: You know, that's an old, old, old phrase, you know, whoever decides to trademark gets it. And so you kind of said how the gargoyle because it's made of stone, became the representation. And also there's certainly text on the early bottles explaining, you know, the gargoyle protecting from bad taste and sort of… Wagner: I think we kinda felt like we needed to explain it ‘cause people like thought that it was the devil or something. I don't know what gargoyles actually do. You know, they protect them in their own churches. They protect against evil spirits. And so, you know, Greg and his creative mind kind of turned it into this protecting our beer from the evil spirits of cheap adjuncts and materials. Downie: That's a very good way explain it. Wagner: Yeah. Downie: And to eradicate the devil situation. Um, so, and you kind of talked about dealing with distribution issues. What about dealing with suppliers? I mean , since you were a smaller brewery again. Yeah. And was there much locally available or did you have to go far afield? Wagner: We had to go pretty far afield for, you know, no matter what it was brewing equipment, you know, raw materials. Obviously hops mostly came from, you know, Washington and Oregon. Malted barley came from, you know, Canada or the upper plains States in the US and, uh, even our water came from Colorado probably. (Laughter) Right. Yeah. You know, there were, there were people locally who could do good tradeswork and stuff. You know, we had, we had wonderful, uh, stainless steel welders and plumbers and you know, just great contractors and people to work with here locally in San Diego. But… Downie: But the actual supplies were another story… Wagner: Yep. That comes from the places that, you know, that's, that's tricky when you're not ordering a lot and you're trying to, you know, protect cashflow and things that you could, you know, you can find yourself short sometimes and critical moments. But you know, that's one of the, what are the cool things about craft beer that we found out very early on is that people are very supportive. And fellow brewers, you know, obviously Pizza Port, you know, Gina and Vince (Marsaglia). I mean they had their own brewery and their own place and still they wanted to serve our beer, you know, help us out and just, just passionate about good craft beer. So that's willingness to help and to, you know, sell somebody a bag of malt if they come up short or some hops or things like that. It still carries on to this day, which is pretty incredible. A lot of businesses like that. Downie: Well, I mean, I have the articles, copy of the articles of incorporation for the San Diego Brewers Guild from 1996 with Greg’s signature on it. And so that shows that, you know, early on there was this established environment of work together and cooperate or it's not going to happen, which I think was just really essential to the success of San Diego craft brewing. Wagner: Definitely. Downie: ‘Cause I get, I get that question from people elsewhere. It's like, ‘Well, why San Diego?’ And it's like, well I know that they've always collaborated with each other. When you don't fight with each other, you can spend your energy doing better things, hopefully surviving, you know. And so, how has your role changed over the years? You know, I mean early on you were, you know, were of course doing the brewing, but when I talked to you one time I asked when was the last time you brewed and you just kind of went, ‘I don’t know.’ Wagner: I am actually brewing tomorrow. Downie: Oh good! Good for you. Wagner: Probably ‘cause you asked me that. I'm like, gosh, it's been too long. Downie: You have to get back to your roots once in a while. Wagner: Yeah, definitely. Um, so let's see. How has my role changed? Yeah, I mean like in the, you know, in the early years, besides doing , I mean for the first six months or so, I did all the production work, you know, the brewing, the filtering, the packaging, everything, and then, you know, gradually was able to get some part time help and, you know, because I ended up managing the distribution part of things, you know, just the, the logistics and the managing the drivers and the warehouse. You know, as we started to add people. At first I think we just had drivers pull the beer and load their own truck and um, you know, manage the flow of invoicing and payments, and then accounts receivable, accounts payable, Human Resources. And to start doing that, you know, I was doing payroll and everything. So kind of doing all the operations and back office stuff. While Greg was out selling and he, you know, continued to create marketing momentum for us with all of his great ideas and things. Downie: So at what point did you formalize the HR and like release doing the payroll and things like that? Wagner: Yeah, I mean, we didn't, yeah, we probably waited too long to get some professional HR help. Yeah, at one point, I promoted my assistant, I had a kind of an assistant who was, you know, sort of an office manager type person to doing payroll and of some of the basic HR filings and stuff like that. But, yeah, I'm trying to remember how that transitioned exactly. But gradually we, we realized, you know, that it's a, it's something that needs to be done by the book and you know, somebody needs to pay attention to it very carefully. And so, we started hiring professional folks to do that. Downie: There are so many facets besides the brewing that, you know, really have legal ramifications if nothing else. And then, you know, employee climate. Wagner: Yup. Downie: Do you want to make sure you're doing things right and your employees are happy? Wagner: Yeah, absolutely. Wagner: So, yeah. Um, yeah, that's, that's one area that's gotten a lot more complex and difficult in the 22 years that we've been in business too. You know, plus as your company grows there, you know, a lot more rules and laws come into play. Right. When you're smaller kind of, you know, when you're under 10 people, it's pretty simple. When you're between 10 and 50, it gets more complex once you’re over 50 that it's, you know, you get the whole rule book thrown it. It was a lot to keep track of and lots to make sure you're doing right. Downie: Well, something I've gotten a sense of from just the photographs I was going through to scan for the documentary (The Beer Jesus from America), it seemed like there were a lot of events for employees. You know, either charity events like Dye Your Head Red. Um, there was also something where people had green hair at one point? Wagner: Well, we were doing it, I don't know if we did it every year, but at one point we're doing it every other year and we would change the color each time we did it. So, it would kind of rotate between blue, red, or green. Downie: Okay. I haven't seen any blue hair photographs, but there's a very distinct one where Lee Chase was walking around and obviously they had had to bleach his hair white in order to dye it green and it was up in what I call ‘the Smurf comb up’, you know, and it's like, wow, that's, that's really throwing himself into the green hair thing. But it seemed like it was something that the employees could get into and have some fun. But you also had a charity element. So, did Stone have a charity element from the beginning? Wagner: Uh, from our, yeah, I mean, because, you know, we, we realized early on, it's one of the best ways to get your brewery name out there is that, you know, California law allows brewers to donate beer to charities for their events. And so , um, you know, that became our grassroots marketing. We didn't have money to spend on marketing. You know, we're not buying advertising or anything. We still don't do that. But it was a low-cost way to get out there and tell our story, you know. So, we would, um, donate beer to these events and then we'd go and set up a booth and you know, pour the beer and tell people about us. And, uh, you know, it was just word of mouth that, you know, it's great, ‘cause people get sample the beer and taste and decide if they like it, but also they see you're out supporting the community in supporting nonprofits and things. So it was really an effective way to, to market and grow our company. And it's, you know, just sort of something Greg and I like to do anyways, you know, be involved in. Downie: Yeah. And it certainly has established a model where you see a lot of that going on now with even the very tiny, tiny craft breweries, which is wonderful. You know, charities need all the help they can get. Wagner: So that was the sort of the turning point was, I guess it was our second anniversary ‘cause our first anniversary we just had it within the brewery, you know, our licensed operations area. ‘Cause it was, you know, pretty small and we didn't charge admission or anything. And, but then the second year we, you know, we wanted to make it bigger and have more people and so to do, in order to do that you have to partner with a charity. They have to pull a special one-day license to allow you to, we wanted to take over a little bit in the parking lot to have our anniversary. And so that's kind of what started it. You know, we went to the, to the mayor I think in San Marcos and said, you know, we need a charity partner that we can partner with to do this anniversary party that we want to do. They said, ‘You know, Boys and Girls Club San Marcos is best organization in town. So why don’t you talk to them?’ That's, you know, they ended up getting me on the Board of Directors for 10 years there. A couple, couple terms as chair of the board and we continue to support them because it's a, you know, great organization that's doing wonderful work for them, the youth of San Marcos. Downie: So there are so many, how do you spread yourself and how do you choose between all of these very deserving causes? Wagner: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does get difficult. And so we're kind of in the mode now or, I mean the good news is that there's a lot more brewers in town too. So, it's like if we say we, you know, we're already supporting the maximum number of organizations we can right now. We can't take on another one, but here's some other great local brewers that would likely be happy to support them. Downie: Again, part of that collaboration and directing people, you know, whenever I worked with somebody and I can't give them what they need in the way of research help, I try to get them somewhere where they can. I mean that's just, I think that's just good humanity if nothing else. So excellent. Wagner: But that was kind of where it turned from, you know, us supporting the nonprofits by donating beer to them, to us realizing, you know, it's our anniversary, but it became more popular and we partnered with a charity that we could charge admission and raise this money and then raise our own funds to give to the, the nonprofits that's become, you know, really the way we create most of the funding that we do for local non-profits. Downie: I’m a member of Society of Barley Engineers they’re very tolerant of my dumb questions about brewing and they're always real pleased to be involved with, you know, homebrewing the sodas that you know are good for the designated driver. Wagner: They always do some really crazy stuff too. It fits in well. Downie: With the 21st Anniversary, I was walking around and I saw a young, obviously quite pregnant young woman and her three friends were all drinking. So obviously she was the designated driver and I said, ‘Do you realize that there is non-alcoholic soda here that you can have?’ ‘Cause she wasn't drinking. It's like kind of, you need to stay hydrated. She was like, ‘Oh great!’ You know, so she was able to get something. Wagner: They always have some amazing ones too. I always try them when I’m there. They're just… Downie: Yeah, they pride themselves on, you know, coming up with something new and different. And a couple of the Barley Engineers now have collaborated with Stone on beers. Chris Banker with Xocovesa and Corey Magers with Mojay. I don't know of any others, but then I haven't really surveyed the home brewing clubs to see who else has done this. Wagner: I’m not sure who else from the Society of Barley Engineers. Downie: It's on my list of, you know, further research. Wagner: There's definitely some other, there's some folks from QUAFF (Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity). I think some other ones too, that uh, won the homebrewers contest that we do. So yeah. Downie: When did you start the homebrewers contest, do you remember? Wagner: Gosh, that's a good question. Downie: I know it's hard to ask for dates. Wagner: Well, it wasn't until we had the bistro (located in Escondido) open ‘cause we would do it at the bistro. So, it was either 2007 probably would have been the earliest . But yeah, it certainly wasn't long after that, I can look back at the beers probably and find out when we released the first beer, which is probably the Ken Schmidt, the coconut porter. Downie: I think somebody who said… Wagner: ‘Maui Ken’ Schmidt. So, the original that I can find that out. Downie: Yeah. I have people ask me things like that. You know, when was the first this, when was the first that I'm like… Wagner: It’s not in here is it (referring to Stone timeline from their website)? Downie: I don't remember how far. I think that ends about 2006 on most of its information. Wagner: So the AleSmith/Mikkeller/Stone (collaboration beer)/ Let's see. We did some with brewers that says the Ken Schmidt one was 2009. Downie: Okay. Wagner: That was the winner of the Stone Age. That might've been the first one. Downie: Okay. Oh, of course they'll remember. Wagner: ‘Cause then we did the 2010 was with Kelsey McNair, I think he was in QUAFF. Right. And he started North Park. Downie: Yeah. He would've been in QUAFF. Wagner: North Park Beer Company that says. Yeah. Downie: Okay. I see. Good thing I brought that list. So, when you started Stone, you started with the IPA? Wagner: Well, Stone Pale Ale. Downie: Stone Pale Ale, okay. Downie: And then where did Arrogant Bastard fall in, into your first beers? Wagner: So the Stone Pale Ale was the first beer, released in July of ‘96 and then our second beer was, we did a, a seasonal called Winter Stone that I think was probably released in November of that year. And then we ended up keeping it around ‘cause we had a few customers who really liked it on draft. And so we changed the name to Stone Smoked Porter and kept brewing it. So that was our second beer. Downie: Stone Smoked Porter ‘cause I've seen those bottles and I think I've seen a Winter Stone. Wagner: Yeah. And now I'm talking about the year-round beers. So there may have been a couple of other ones in there. But then the Stone IPA was released on our first anniversary, so July of ‘97. So that was our third full time beer. And then I don't think Arrogant Bastard came out until 1998, till November of ‘98 I believe. We had the other year-round beers because we started doing some bottling then. Yeah. Just keeping up with what we had. Downie: So it was late ‘98 when you started bottling? Wagner: (paper rustling) I believe so. Okay. I'll confirm that . I think it's pretty sure it's (November of ’98). Downie: Well since when I asked you about that date code on the bottles and you made the very good point that that was probably when the bottles were printed, not when they were filled. I was like, ‘Oh yeah, that would make perfectly good sense.’ Okay. Now I don't even have to worry about the dates on the bottle anymore because that can be from any time really. That was, there went, a myth ‘cause I saw Chris Cochran, just after that and I said, well Chris, because Chris and Greg and both said, we think this is when the bottles were when beers were brewed. I said, well, Steve says, because you bought bottles and they sat in the warehouse, he goes, Oh, okay. So you know, busting that mythology there, which brings me to… Wagner: Yeah we used to put the date on the case boxes at first. You know, we didn't have the technology to put it actually on the bottle. It was, we were doing these little (inaudible) bottling machines. Downie: Yeah, yeah. You're, you're running lean and mean. You've got to get it out there. Yeah. But that does bring me to another mythology which, how Arrogant Bastard was born. You know, the higher hopped beer. I have heard from people who of course want to speak with some authority, but you would be the authority, that you accidentally double hopped a batch of beer. Wagner: I did. That is absolutely true. I think everybody agrees on that. You know, we were working out of Greg's condo in Solana Beach to, you know, start the business basically. And I was doing a lot of research on equipment and then I was also doing some pilot batches to, you know, work on some, some recipes for some of the beers. And we had, I had my own kind of homebrew equipment, then we invested in a nicer system that a little bit more capacity, I think it was like a 10-gallon system or something like that. It's, so it was one of the first brews I was doing on that system. And so all my calculations changed on volume bitterness units and all that stuff. I screwed up the first calculation and I way over hopped this beer. (Laughs) Downie: But then you didn't release the results of this mistake until a couple of years after being established. Wagner: We have differing opinions, Greg and I recall it differently because we definitely know I screwed it up. The question was, I think I thought I realized it right at the time and I just wanted to dump the batch, you know, Greg said, to my memory Greg said, ‘No, let's, you know, you've already made it. We might as well let it ferment and then we’ll bottle it. And then Greg's memory of it is that I didn't realize it until we tasted the bottles and then it's like, ‘Ah, geez, I messed this one up.’ and Greg is ‘This is the best beer I've ever had.’ Downie: Okay. Well it's nice to actually be able to say definitively that part that, that mythology is true. And so what is your role in developing new beers now? Wagner: You know what, I don't have a huge role other than, you know, tasting the new stuff that we come up with. Maybe making some comments here and there if there's things that I don't think are quite, quite what we're looking for, but, we have a super creative team and I'm happy to enjoy the fruits of their labors. We've got an innovation team with three guys, Chris Ketchum and Jeremy Moynier and Steve Gonzalez. They're just making unbelievable beers. It used to be such pressure for me to come up with a new beer as well, you know, doing all this other work in my day job and all this stuff. It's kind of nice when we got to that point where other people can contribute. You know, Lee Chase was the first who helped out with that. And then Mitch Steele came on board. You really embrace that, which is nice for me because… Downie: Speaking of Mitch (Steele) and Lee (Chase), did they start as volunteers or did they start as paid employees? Wagner: Yeah, I don't think we had volunteers that I recall. Lee started part time ‘cause he was, you know, he had been working at Brewers Union down in San Diego, the brew-your-own place and then I think he was working at White Labs too, maybe even doing some stuff for Pizza Port. But yeah, we hired him part time to help me with the brewing and kegging stuff ‘cause I just couldn't keep up with everything. Then eventually we got to the point where we're able to make him full time. Downie: And then he went out on his own. Wagner: Great job of growing with us for a long time. He was with us for 10 years or something. Super creative guy. Yeah, doing great on his own. Downie: Yeah. And he's a, he's another hard person to reach. But I am persistent. If nothing else, it does pay off eventually. What happened to your early brewing equipment? Wagner: Uh, my earliest brewing equipment, I actually have it. Yeah, do you want it? my musician friend, The guy Doug Freeman, still mine who invited me to homebrew with we, uh, I have that equipment actually. Downie: Yeah. If it's not as big as this (holds arms out indicating the current brewhouse), Wagner: it’s a 5 gallon. Downie: I would love to have it. That would be wonderful. Oh, I would love to have it because that's one thing I don't have is you know, equipment because that's kind of a space factor. But the, where it all started very first time, that would be…Oh, that would be so incredible, that that would just be so much fun. Wagner: Alright, it would make my wife very happy. Downie: And I'm sure, yeah. That's what I get from a number of the wives of brewers. It's like, ‘Oh, you'll only take that much?’ Oh, I can only take so much and I don't want anything that is not San Diego related. I'm sorry ‘cause I have women going, ‘He's got a hundred growlers and they're from all over the country.’ The boss has told me to stop collecting growlers. I’ve got about 45 so far. But the artwork on them is so incredible, you know, I mean I think just everything that you do to represent yourself says so much. Wagner: Yeah. Downie: It's like Karl Strauss and Ballast Point and they've changed their logos. They've changed their stories a little bit. So yeah, I just, I just love to collect real stuff because then people get really excited when they see, you know, a piece of paper they don't get too excited about, but when they see the real thing, they just get really excited and happy. Um, so, just if you care to talk about this, a couple of lows and highs in the progression of Stone, things that have happened that… Wagner: Let's see, I mean, you know, some of the highs were, let's see, in the early days, that'd be just some big wins on getting our beer to some places that, you know. I remember one of them, because one of the reasons I used to come down here was because my brothers were in school at UCSD and I was, I was already out of college and I was living in Los Angeles, but I'd come down and visit them and we'd go to the Del Mar racetrack and stuff. You know, it was just fun thing to do on the weekends and you know, so when we first got Stone Pale Ale on tap at the Del Mar racetrack, I thought, ‘Wow, it doesn't get any better than this.’ Yes, they're just little things. but just those little incremental things, sometimes... Downie: Well, they may feel a little but, that was really a big thing getting, getting out there with so many different people are going to be tasting your beer. That's huge. Wagner: So, yeah, that's what I remember I mean, you know, the first time that we'd started shipping our beer to another state, to Arizona. That's pretty big deal. Downie: Yeah. Especially Arizona was early. I mean, they passed Prohibition four or five years before the nation did. Yeah. That they were one of the reasons San Diego Brewing failed, or Mission Brewing, failed pre-prohibition because Mission was making Hopski which was a near beer and Arizona wouldn't even allow that in the state. And that's what actually caused Mission to shutter. Oh, I've got all kinds of weird little historical trivia. Wagner: Yeah. Let's see. The low points. I don't know. The, you know, the losing good people is always tough, you know? Um, what do you feel like you've let them down or something and not been able to provide the career path or the compensation they need or whatever it is. You know, sometimes that hits you hard when it's somebody who, really, really valuable member of the team that moves on from whatever is, it could be personal reasons, can be professional reasons. Um, those were some low points. You know, obviously Greg talks about when we got turned down by the distributor, you know? Yeah, yeah. That was a pretty big setback. Yeah. Downie: That, that would be terrifying. Wagner: Yeah. I dunno for me though, it was just, it just made me mad and it's like, alright, let me just, we're going to beat these guys at their own game. That we’re going to take action in those situations. But yeah, you know, it's, you don't really know how long you have to make a success of it, you know, and how long can the negative cashflow go on before decides just not gonna make it, you know, and we were close to that point. So it was definitely an inflection point. Downie: Do you have a year that you realize you had gone into the black? Wagner: I think it was about, I think it was probably ‘99 was probably our first profitable year. I can look back and I might still have some of those. Downie: Yeah, well that's not, that's not because Peter (Zien) at AleSmith says it was six, six years or so before he actually… Wagner: I think it was the first full year with Arrogant Bastard. ‘Cause I think that kind of took off pretty quickly for us. It really changed things around. You know, because we had just been trying to grow in San Diego and you know, do it the hard way. Right. Just hand to hand. So, it was a slow road, but that kind of gave a us a big shot in the arm. Downie: Well, a name like that, you know, I mean if nothing else, people are gonna buy it just because of the name. Yeah. Okay. Well then, I know we've talked about this before, but for the record, if Stone hadn't worked out, you know, I mean you did have a time where you came close, I'm sure. What would have been your plan B? Wagner: Yeah, I think the plan B, I mean I definitely wanted to stay involved in craft beer, you know, enjoyed brewing and a lot of aspects for it. So, you know, I thought about that since we talked a little bit last time. I think it probably would have been moving back up to Portland because both of my brothers and their families lived up there. Uh, looking for a job with a brewery up there. Really enjoyed living up there too. Downie: Yeah. Well I liked your, your response last time you said, ‘I didn't think about it.’ It wasn’t not going to happen. Wagner: I thought about it since you said like ‘What would we have done?’ Probably, you know… Downie: So, well it seems like you were so busy you didn't have time to think about what that plan B would be. Wagner: It’s really true, I think we're so focused on just a… Downie: Yeah, if you don't admit that there could be failure, you know, you haven't left yourself anywhere, but to go, but keep going, I guess. Wagner: I feel like we just put our heads down and just kept working with it. Downie: You obviously, you obviously did, I mean some of the photos from the buildout on Mata Way. I mean, obviously you're just, you're asleep in your chair. You just kept going until you couldn't go anymore. But you know that that hard work has paid off here 22 years later, 23 years later. So do you have any words of wisdom for future brewers? Wagner: Wow. Yeah, you know I used to say all those things like ‘chase your dreams’ and ‘if it's your passion’ stuff but the way the industry is now, I'm not sure. (Laughs) I'm not sure the best advice to give somebody, but, yeah, I mean, if you're, I would say if it's, if you're willing to commit everything to it and work harder than you've ever worked and you know, and you should only do that because you really love it. Then, yeah. I mean it's, it's great to do something that you love. You know, I think, I think you, you know, you have to have realistic financial expectations these days. You know, people aren’t going to grow into a $1 billion company probably at this point, you know, but, uh, but if you are passionate about it and you can find a lifestyle that works for you with the, you know, with that sort of employment or a job, I think it's, there's something to be said for it. Downie: Yeah. And Stone has certainly given rise to a lot of other brewers who have gained experience here and then gone out and been successful. Wagner: So it's not just us, it's the other brewers that had been around for a while too. Downie: Yeah. I tried to develop a genealogy, kind of you know, who had worked where with who and I gave up. It was such an inner tangled, shifting, people popping back and forth. I said, no, somebody else can do that. I'll just track the breweries because they're a fixed space and I can deal with it. Wagner: That, um, that would be a very complicated… Downie: What was the, I'm sure you and Greg have probably talked about where does Stone go from here, you know, as far as both expansion and what, when you both say ‘we want to step back, we want to retire’. Or whatever. Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's something we're, we're, you know, we're actively trying to figure out every day pretty much. It's how can we leave the company independent and you know, still a going enterprise, you know, when we're not involved anymore, can't be involved anymore. So that's still our goal. You know, we want to leave a company that has the ability to go its own way and not be told what to do. Uh, you know, be run by the people who work here. Downie: And hopefully hold to your founding principles of, you know, the quality, consistency... Wagner: Yeah. Downie: No paid advertising, you know, just good, good culture for people to work at and, and, and all of those. I mean, it seems like you've developed a very good, strong core of principles that have really served Stone well. Wagner: Yup. Downie: Hopefully they will remain. Wagner: Yeah. You know, we're, we're trying to figure that out. It doesn't seem like it'll be a family business at this point. You know, my sons are still a little young, not even sure if that something they'd be interested in. You know, Greg doesn't have any kids or anything, so it's not, it's not going to be like a family business that's passed on generation to generation probably. So, yeah. Downie: Well, have your children ever come in and like work for the summer helping out? Wagner: My youngest son was a host at the restaurant this summer. Downie: Okay. I'm never sure, I'm never sure if that's really a good insight into the world of, you know, the food and beverage business. Wagner: Yeah. Yeah. People are not always that pleasant. It was good for him because he needed to come out socially a little bit. So, you know, you're having to deal with strangers and be nice to them and make them happy. That's a good thing. Downie: Yeah, that's, it certainly it makes you appreciate what service staff go through. Wagner: Yup. Downie: If you work a little bit of it yourself, it's a very different world for them on the other side. And are there any styles of beer you have not tried? You know , I mean, it seems like there was a real explosion of beer styles for a while. Now, you know, the Brut IPA is the most recent thing I've heard of, but are there other styles that you have heard of that you haven't tried or other styles that you see Stone maybe experimenting with or at least investigating? Wagner: Uh, let's see. I'm sure there's styles that I haven't tried, but they're, they're probably more the historical, obscure type ones that, you know, maybe nobody’s brewing anymore or has tried to brew in a long time. Downie: They're not being made for a reason. Wagner: That’s right, most of them, most of them are not accepted styles. That'd be both, you know, between being a judge at GABF probably judged all the categories, the hundred or whatever there are, including the malt liquor category. Sometimes you have to pay your price. I mean, as far as places we’re looking or, I mean, you know, one of the nice things is having a brewery in Berlin now that sort of opened up a whole new range of things we can do there, you know, as it relates to more traditional styles, more traditional European styles and things. So, it's kinda fun to experiment with those, you know, doing the Berlinerweisse and doing some different Pilsners and lagers and things like that. So, yeah, I dunno, there's nothing we'd rule out, you know, I mean, there's such a lot of, uh, innovation going on with hop varieties and stuff that's really exciting to us. So, obviously we're doing a lot of different IPAs using those, you know, testing new hop varieties for the growers and things. Uh, let's see. Yeah, I don't know. Downie: Well, there's, there's still lots, still lots out there available to experiment. Wagner: You know, the ability to create new flavors and beers is pretty much limitless, I think. So we still want to be leading that charge for sure. Downie: But never giving up on your stable, the stable core beers. Wagner: Yeah. You still have to sell beer too. Downie: But somebody was bemoaning the oaken, the Oaked Arrogant Bastard and how much he missed that. And that was I just like ‘Never had it, can’t say.’ Wagner: The beautiful thing is we, you know, we reserve the right to bring back any beer at any time if we want to. Pretty much any of them we could brew again and we probably will at some point just for fun. Downie: Yeah. As long as those particular hops and all are still available. Wagner: Yeah. The Stone Pale Ale, although somebody told me, I was talking to Jeremy or somebody who told me something. They said that some of the growers are starting to plant the Ahtanum hop again. I guess, which is interesting. So I have to keep posted on that, we might have to do a throw back version of the Stone Pale Ale. Downie: What was old is new again. Wagner: Yeah, exactly. Downie: Well, is there anything that you would like to contribute to this history that we haven't touched on? Wagner: I'll have to think of that a little bit if I could get a second swing at it. But, no, I just think it's an amazing story of how San Diego ended up being this epicenter of it, you know, Capital of Craft™ and just, uh, you know, my best memories are just the wonderful people in this industry. You know, I consider many of them friends, just really good people who you know really pull together and help each other out. And I just thought that's something that we can keep going, you know, as it gets more competitive and things like that. ‘Cause it's, it's a pretty special place to be. Downie: Yes, exactly. Yeah I told Jen (Jennifer Fabbi, Dean of the CSUSM Library) , I said, if, if this was a combative industry, I would have come back to you and said, no, we do not want to get involved. Yeah. But I said, everybody has been collaborative and sharing and open and enthusiastic, which has really made developing the Brewchive® a joy because, I think there's, I don't know if the stars aligned right for San Diego or what, but it does seems like it's a really, there's something about this area and the people in it that has just created a very good place for the craft beer industry to be successful and be collaborative. Wagner: Yeah. And I think if there's one, one thing in particular that Stone did to make that happen was to take our beers outside of San Diego, you know, and probably the first ones to get any sort of serious distribution outside of Southern California to attract attention for, you know, Arrogant Bastard and then Stone IPA and some of those beers that, you know, I mean obviously there's a lot of tourism and military stuff for the word would spread about San Diego breweries, but we actually got the beer out there to the East Coast and other places where people, helped people realize, wow, there's something going on in San Diego. Downie: Yeah. And somebody sampling it here, they may not have any pull where when they go home to get the beer brought in. So yeah, you have to kind of push it to a receptive community. Wagner: You have to convince the distributor that you know that it will succeed or that there's people that would, Downie: And so now there Stone brewing, Stone has a distributorship. Um, I know Greg's got like the nut butter thing going on. (Wagner laughs) It seems like there's becoming a many-headed Hydra, not in a negative way. Wagner: That’s not a Stone thing (nut butter) though , that's, you know, he's got a couple other things he's involved in, you know, whether it's the, yeah, the nut butter or the wine thing, there are some other breweries and things. And I've got a little bit of that too with some of the brewers that I help out. But, yeah, I don't know. I think, you know, our three big pillars are obviously the brewery is the big one and continue to make beer that people want to buy and the challenges and the distribution. It's just a key strategic thing for us that allows us to control our brand and our sales in our home market. That's something that we'll always have that, you know, no matter how rough it gets out there and other parts of the country and stuff, we feel confident that we can, you know, always have strong sales here in Southern California. And then, uh, the hospitality is basically our marketing. You know, we don't invest a lot in advertising or those sort of traditional things for us. It's creating a good experience where people come to your place and you know, they leave and the next day they go to the store, they want to buy a six pack of Stone because they have these fond memories, you know. So far it’s worked. Will it continue to work? We’ll have to see. Downie: Well, sounds like it will. Well, I will end the interview here. I want to thank you so very much, Steve. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wagner, Steve. Interview October 24, 2018. Description An account of the resource Steve Wagner co-founded Stone Brewing Company, San Marcos, CA with Greg Koch in 1996. In this interview he addresses his background, education in beer and business, details about Stone Brewing Company, future plans, and words of wisdom for future brewers. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context WagnerSteve_DownieJudith_2018-10-24.mp3 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-24 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Wagner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Subject The topic of the resource Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Stone Brewing Company (San Marcos, Calif.) Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County University of California, Davis Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Evanston (Ill.) California -- Santa Cruz County -- Santa Cruz Los Angeles (Calif.) Portland (Or.) San Marcos (Calif.) Escondido (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en." target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Brewchive(r) Community history https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/694828807984d331d6d9c34d9ef41c55.mp3 b0e3053193e3e877f17a5c3dfe7d6e7a Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spackman, Amy. Interview February 23, 2017. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Amy Spackman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-066 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. community history Description An account of the resource Amy Spackman began working in the tasting room at Mission Brewing in San Diego after switching careers from being a preschool teacher. In this interview she discusses her experience breaking into the San Diego craft brewing industry, her continuing education, and what it is like to be one of few women in the industry. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-17 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) El Cajon (Calif.) Subject The topic of the resource Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Brewchive(r) Community history Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5b54bf618e85a48ceaf7e13292022191.pdf 58abe16222e0b72af886c11325ebca9f PDF Text Text North County's 'Ubiquitous Photographer' Dan Rios Interview 2 with Alexa Clausen April 15, 2017, Escondido California Rios was Chief Photographer, Escondido Times-Advocate (1968 - 1994); North County Times (1995-2001) Alexa Clausen: This is April 15th, 2017. Session two with Dan Rios regarding his career as Chief Photographer with the (Escondido) Daily Times-Advocate. Now, Dan, we left off (last interview) having you hear about a job in Escondido, not really sure that you’d been to Escondido many times and going to a newsstand and literally picking up the paper. And then you were telling me how impressed you that the paper being so crisp and vivid. And that’s where we left you off. You literally went to a newspaper stand and grabbed a paper. So tell me your steps to getting hired. Dan Rios: Yeah. Well, I saw the paper and I was really amazed at how good it looked. So I was working for Mr. Boyd in Hillcrest, and on Monday I asked him if I could take the morning off to come and apply for the job. And I did. I drove down here. I met with Curt Babcock, who was the City Editor. He introduced me to George Cordry, assistant City Editor, and Ron Kenny, the Managing Editor. They interviewed me, they saw my portfolio, they saw my brag book and one question they kept repeating was, Did I know how to do color? Since I specialized in color the last year at school (Mesa College), I showed them my color brochure, that I had processed all the film, I had processed all the pictures and they seemed to be pleased with that. That was the end of that interview. Later that day they called and said I was hired and for me to come in the following Monday. AC: Could you give me a date on that? DR: That was the week that—that was 1968. I believe it was May, when Robert Kennedy was killed. AC: Oh my gosh. DR: I started working the week Robert Kennedy died. AC: He was assassinated in Los Angeles. DR: Yes. Yes, by Sirhan Sirhan. They asked me if I can come in on Monday and my shift would be from 7:00 o'clock in the morning until whenever. (chuckles) Whenever I was done. The only problem is I had an appointment with the DMV because I had gotten so many driving tickets. I had an appointment with them on that Monday, so I had asked them if I can postpone it for one day. They agreed. I didn't tell them why. The deal he gave me a one-year probationary period. One more ticket and my license was suspended. So, on Tuesday, the following week, I started. 1 �AC: Now let me ask you, were you replacing someone who had retired, or this was a new position for them? DR: They had only hired a part-time photographer. AC: They had a part-DR: And he had left three, four or five months before me coming here. They had a reporter by the name of Mary Jane Morgan who seemed to know the photography, seemed to know the processing, and she was doing some processing plus her reporting duties. She would process the film for the editorial staff. Because every reporter took their own pictures basically. There were pool cameras. And they went assignment, they took their own pictures, they brought the film in. Mary Jane would process it. In Advertising also they had a pool camera and they would do the same. So when I showed up on Tuesday, there was a stack of rolls of film for me to process. And get busy and organize the dark room and see what the supplies were—chemicals and paper and equipment. I got busy organizing it and started right in. I don't think I got my first assignment until about a week later. And I started--my first assignment--I remember my first assignment was at the Escondido Village Mall at the Walker Scot Pavilion there. Mrs. Purer, Edith Purer I think her name was. I think there’s a road by your-AC: Yes. DR: (unintelligible) Purer Road. Named after her family. And it was an art exhibit, art contest. So that was my first photograph. Of that. Subsequently I started doing a lot of dark room work in the morning and then shooting the afternoon assignments in the afternoon. I would shoot anything from mug shots to sports events, to society, to accidents, to trials. Everything except professional sports. I was never really much interested in professional sports. AC: And you'd have to what? You’d have to cover the (San Diego) Chargers? DR: No. AC: Where would they send you fort professional—they didn’t do much of that? DR: No. No. They relied on AP and UPI photos. AC: They bought them. Yeah. DR: Yeah, subscribed to those services and-AC: Had you moved to Escondido? Were you commuting? DR: No, I was commuting. I was getting up at five o' clock in the morning, had a little breakfast, get ready, get dressed. Get out at six and drive a two-lane road to Escondido. I 2 �would arrive at work, seven o'clock, work until I was done. Sometimes at work I would have a three, four hour lay-over because my shift would end, but a sporting event would come in. Or a society event would come in later in the day, in the evening. And I would have to stay for that. AC: Were you hourly or salary? DR: I was hourly. A very, very meager salary actually. Well that was one of the conditions that I accepted at work. I talked to my bosses and I said, “You know, you guys aren't paying me a lot of money, I need to earn more money. Am I going to be permitted to use the dark room for my own purposes, for moonlighting?” They said, Yes, no problem, whatever you want. The darkroom is yours after hours. AC: It's the plight of every artistic person. You know? The job and the labor of love. DR: I was fortunate. I got along with everybody, everybody was fantastic. It was just a great boss--Kirk Babcock, the city editor. He could understand my photography. He knew what I was going after and he would compliment me on that. So, it got to the point that it was all over town. And then one of my assignments, we had something called "The North County." (Times-Advocate North County magazine) Which was a Sunday supplement. A magazine type thing. Tabloid type thing. And I was in charge of providing the photography for the cover. Every week, besides my other assignments. There were days when I would scramble all over town trying to find something. It was mostly artsyfartsy stuff on the cover. Whatever I wanted. They never censored me. They never told me what they wanted. AC: Wow! DR: But it got to a point where I got to know the town. And I would drive a thousand, fifteen-hundred miles a month all over town, and all over the North County, and some assignments in San Diego--not too many. And I would shoot what they called "grab art." Whenever I saw something interesting, I’d take a picture of it. And eventually we had so many of those we couldn't even run them in the paper. And I suggested once that we run a special photo page. No theme, nothing. Just to use the pictures, and on Sunday it was a whole picture. And I came up with the name of "focal reflections." And they were just people, places, events, scenery. Just artsy stuff that I shot that we couldn't use in the paper. And we got a lot, a lot of comments on that. AC: When they were sending you on assignment, were you filling in between what the reporters were doing, or they were there own stories? So were you backing up an assignment of a journalist? DR: Well, most of the time I would go out with a journalist. He would ask questions, I would take pictures. Or if he had gone out and did the story, then they would assign me to go ahead and cover the story (unintelligible). A perfect example of that is--did I ever tell you about Rancho Guajome? AC: No. 3 �DR: Eloise Perkins, a historical writer grabbed a hold of me with both fists around my neck (laughs). And she would send me on assignments that she had problems with. And one day I was sitting around--there was two events she sent me on. One, I was sitting around. She said, “What are you doing?” I said, “I’m waiting for an assignment later this afternoon.” (She) says there is this adobe, an abandoned adobe in Vista. Would you go take pictures of it? She gave me the address and I found it. I walked all over the place taking pictures of it. It was collapsing, the floors were rotted, the walls were crumbling. AC: This was before the County bought it and restored it. DR: Yeah. It was just abandoned, I thought. I walked around. I must have spent an hour, hour and half. I went around the back, on the north end of it, there was a trailer there. This man walks out with a shotgun and asked me what the hell was I doing there? I showed him my credentials. I told him what I was doing. He told me he didn't care. He said, If I didn't get my rear end out of there in a hurry that he would start shooting. AC: Oh my god. Thank you, Eloise. DR: So, I got back to Eloise and Eloise just cracked up laughing. She said, “Did that nut threaten you?” I said, “Yeah!” She says, “He chased me away so many times I can't get through the-AC: So she sends you. DR: And those negatives are in the files. Two and a quarter-inch negatives of all that stuff. AC: You know, you did have—after we shut off the tape, a kind of a get to know Eloise, so I’ll type that up and we can add onto the-DR: Yeah. She did another one, another Eloise trick she did on me, was at Carrillo Ranch before it became anything. The old lady, Delpy I think her name was, was there. At that point I had a little fame going there at the (newspaper). That I could get along with old ladies. Old ladies and I had a rapport. They would offer me coffee, they would offer me tea, drinks—sodas, whatever. So, Eloise again played a trick on me. She says, Go see Mrs. Delpy at Carrillo Ranch. Take some pictures. So I got there, knocked on the door. She ushered me in, sat me down, offered me coffee, cookies. Told her what I wanted, what I do. She opened up these (photo) albums. with her mother, her stepmother, her stepfather, her family, (Leo) Carrillo, the gatherings, the movie stars. And I started taking copy, photographs of it. And I was there maybe two--two and a half hours talking with her. And eventually I went outside. The stables still were—still had the tack from the early days just rotting away in the stables. So, I again I showed up with Eloise and she’s laughing, said “How did you do with the old lady.” I says, “Great. You know, coffee, tea, cookies, conversation, she was fantastic.” She says, “Oh my god I can't believe it.” So I got a little history there with 4 �old ladies. I can handle old ladies, and I got along with them. I got along with everyone. I loved Escondido. The people were just fantastic. I never saw any prejudice on my part. I never experienced it. We had two Hispanic employees in the editorial room. Me and Joe Heredia, who had been there before I was. He subsequently--he had a heart attack and died on the job. AC: Oh my. DR: But--never any problem. I was getting to know people and at that point I had a pretty good memory. I could recognize faces and names. I got to know the city councilmen, most of the Fire Department. And they would call me when things were happening. I got to know the councilmen personally, the mayors, the city attorneys, and had a really good rapport. I loved the city. I loved the population. I loved the society people. They were so gracious. I remember once, they showed me—there was a—can't think of the charity—was a meeting. It was I think in the Fall or toward the Winter. And I showed up. I would pick on one person in a group and semi, lightly make fun of them. To loosen up the room. I wasn't mean, I wasn't vicious. AC: Just teasing. DR: Yeah, just teasing a little bit. So I got to this meeting there early and they were about to have lunch, and they invited me to have lunch. And I said sure. So I had a few snacks here and there and a cup of juice and sat down in front. They got done. And they sat them down and I picked on this one woman. And she was laughing, everyone was laughing. Just to loosen the group up. Then I went to get my IDs, left to right, front to back. And I get back one, the middle one. And her name—by the way the name of the owners (of the Times-Advocate) were Carlton and Applebee. Mrs. Applebee. AC: Now, Lucy (Berk) said—not Applegate? DR: No. Applebee. AC: Like the restaurant. Oh. DR: Applebee. So I got to the middle of the row and this woman. I asked her about her name. To give me her name. Oh god, I can’t remember her first name. An Applebee. And I dropped my pen and my pad of paper and looked at her says, “(and) that’s Mrs. Carlton?” She says, “Mm-hmm.” (Rios and Clausen laugh) AC: Oh they were the owners' wives. DR: Yeah, and I'm jiving with her, I’m teasing her, and I said, Oh god, that's the end of my job. Never brought it up. We became fast friends after that. AC: And this sounds like a style that worked for you to have people relax so you don't have those (stiff) photos. 5 �DR: Oh no no, I wouldn’t permit that. Wouldn’t permit hands in front of their bodies either, hiding their crotch. They had to hug people, put their hands in their hands, put hands on their backs. Couldn’t stand these people, just their hands just hanging down. AC: Now you did kind of refer to someone--was it Mr. Babcock--someone said that they liked your style, they knew what you were doing. DR: Yeah, Curt AC: Would you just expand on that a little bit? I'm assuming it’s like a methodology or an artistic approach. DR: Yes. I try to present a viewpoint. Semi-hidden, maybe not so hidden, but I always tried to present a viewpoint. Either through the angle or the lighting. A lot of the time I would take my own lighting. In fact somebody commented--they wrote me a letter that they liked my photography. It reminded them of the earlier photographers in the Midwest. They use to do that. Take multiple lights and set up a little lighting (unintelligible) they were portable. And that was my own device that I thought about. And Curt came up—in fact I was there about six months, and he came up to me, and slapped my back, he says, “How is my serendipity photographer.” No, no, no. Not serendipity. It was “ubiquitous.” “How is my ubiquitous photographer.” I had no idea what that meant. AC: You ran to the dictionary? DR: (laughs) Oh yes. AC: What did he mean? DR: That I was all over town, like a plague. AC: Oh! But it was a compliment. DR: Oh yeah. Yes, yes. I was covering everything. My photographs, I had four, five, six photographs in the paper daily. I was doing all the sports, society, the mug shots, and the features, and the artistics, and the grab art. As I said, I would work in the darkroom until noon, and the afternoon it was mine to do what I wanted to. I would do the assignments, do my own, do whatever. The following morning, I would come in to process all the film, do all the proof sheets. Start printing pictures for the advertising, and the editorial, and my own stuff. AC: Had they thought of getting you extra help? DR: They did. About a year later. AC: So, about 1970? 6 �DR: Uh-huh, about the middle of 1970. Well people would constantly apply. They would send their resume in. They would send their portfolios, a portion of them. At that point the paper was too small--the salaries were cheap to put it mildly. But I loved the place, and after a year I was planning to go back to San Diego, but I said there was no way I’m going back to San Diego. AC: Oh, you wanted to stay here. DR: Yes, I wanted to stay here. I loved the place, I tolerated the heat. So when they were wanting to hire, I saw this portfolio. Since as a youth, I was never involved in sports, never played sports. Not in school, not extra(curricular), never played sports and I wasn’t that familiar with them. I played softball in grade school, but you know that’s nothing. And then I saw the portfolio of this photographer, Jim Baird and it blew me away. The man was just a phenomenal photographer. And I went to Ron Kenny, I says “I want to hire this guy.” Because he loved sports. Which is something I didn't do and I didn't like! I said he could take that weight off my shoulders. And he could do it with an artistic flair that I could never do. And about that point the Padres had started playing at Petco Park—was called Jack Murphy, or San Diego stadium. AC: Yeah, the old Qualcomm-DR: Yes. And he would assign himself games because he loved it so much. And I was happier than he was for him to do it. And he did that. And eventually he wanted to do a lot of his own darkroom work and printings that was just fine. But it got to the point where I was doing too much darkroom, not enough photography. So, I went to Ron Kenny again, and I asked him if I can hire a lab tech. Then I could do all-day shooting. Between Baird and myself, we would do the assignments. Then the darkroom technician was Lowell Thorp. He was an older man. He was in his fifties I think at the time. So, he interviewed and he said he wanted no part of photography. He had done that at his previous job and he just wanted darkroom work. And the man was super meticulous. He would come in at five o'clock in the morning. And do all the film, all the proofs. People would hand in their proof sheets with their marked photographs and their crop, and he would supply them. He would hand them out, he would keep the inventory. AC: When do you think this was, what year? Because you said you-- (unintelligible) DR: Jim Baird. Yeah. Jim Baird. Maybe a year later. AC: So ‘71 maybe. DR: And he retired there (at the Times-Advocate), he worked I think fifteen years, retired there. At the end of the year he would produce the summary of all film, all the paper, all 7 �the chemicals, everything that was used in the darkroom. The guy was just meticulous, he just loved that place. AC: It was a little bit like his lab? Like his-DR: Oh it was his domain. Oh my god. If you worked there, he allowed you to work there, but you had better have it clean when you left. I remember when one time there was a reporter, I don't want to name his name, he works for the San Diego Union now. He liked to take his own pictures, and he was on the City Beat. He would get off the City Council Beat at ten-eleven o'clock at night, come in and process the film, print it, go home. Probably one-two o'clock in the morning, go home, come back maybe ten o'clock the following day. Well Lowell got in one day when this reporter had made a mess. He called him at 5 o'clock in the morning to get his butt in there, clean the place up because nothing was going to be done that day until he got there and cleaned his mess up. And he just sat until this reporter showed up. And he did clean the mess up and Lowell started working again. AC: How funny. DR: But he was picky, he was meticulous. He didn't care who worked there. Just clean your mess up. AC: It sounds like in a matter of three years, they hired you and then three-four years made an entire grouping of an entire photographic system from nothing. From having part-time photographers. So North County (San Diego) started a little boom at about the same time. DR: Oh yeah. It was flourishing. It was flourishing. AC: So that reflected in their demand for the newspaper. DR: Yeah. I don’t remember what year it was, early in the in the 70's. We won an award for the best layout in a newspaper regardless of size. And we were winning awards left and right. Editorial awards. I was never very competitive. I was never much into (photography) contests, after school. Didn’t interest me. I don’t know if I mentioned Edith Purer and her--I did join those a couple years. Printed some 16 x 20 prints, won first place, second place, third place in those events. After a couple years I stopped participating in that. AC: So that was your own artistic photography? DR: Yes. AC: What was your specialty, what did you like in your own work? DR: Just sceneries, evening shots, sunsets. AC: Color? 8 �DR: Yes, yes. Well no, not all color, some black and white. Would you like some water, I’m sorry-AC: No, thank you. DR: If I could take you to the computer, I’ve got a screen saver-AC: Okay. DR: --with some of my pictures. Thank you, Terry (for water). Some of my pictures that I like, that are put on there. On the—but mostly travel. When I was in school, in fact when I was in school, Mr. Dendle, my teacher asked me if I wanted to work for a traveling company, shooting landscapes for post cards, for different cities. That's all I would do is travel across the country photographing cities. AC: I’ll be darned. That’s how they did those, yeah-DR: Scenery, and cities and whatever-AC: Landmarks, museums, yeah. DR: Yeah. Send it to the company and they would ship it out to the cities in those stands that they had, those rotating stands. I said, no I wasn't interested in that. AC: Yeah, I like postcards. I don’t have a huge amount but I love it. I love it. DR: And I said, no, I didn’t. But I like scenery, sunsets and that kind of stuff. Nature. AC: I think—maybe people know this if you’re artistic but you have a job, finding time to have a life and your art is difficult. You know, writers do this, and other artists. That balancing the job, the family, and all that. So, had you moved to Escondido yet? DR: No. Was it? Well, yes, by that point. Because I--In getting up at five o'clock in the morning and driving to Escondido to be here at seven o'clock, and then working all day and driving back home--I was living in Hillcrest, and I would start dozing off. Two or three times I dozed off and woke up, so, this was not good. Because I was putting in eight, nine, ten hours a day. I’d have a split shift and work late at night and-AC: Did they start constructing I-15 yet? DR: No. I've got pictures of Rancho Bernardo with the cows in the pastures where West Bernardo is now. AC: Yeah. With cattle (unintelligible). DR: Yeah. Got pictures of those. 9 �AC: So, did they promote you, technically, were you-DR: No (Rios laughs), I was always Chief Photographer. It was just assumed I was Chief Photographer. There was no ceremony, there was nothing. When my cards came by, it was “Chief Photographer Dan Rios.” AC: Right. So they were too busy publishing a paper to get all these formalities. (Rios laughs) DR: Yeah. Oh yeah. AC: So once it (the Times-Advocate) grew to have a full shop, meaning, you're on assignments, you’re out of the darkroom, you have a tech guy, you have an assistant doing sports. Was-DR: No he was full time. AC: A full timer. DR: Full time, yeah. AC: So, was-DR: But he loved sports, specialized in sports which was good for me. AC: Was that the largest the staff ever got? DR: No. AC: Okay, so you’re still growing. DR: It continued to grow. After that we had some stringers. There was a man by the name of Mike Franklin who worked in the production department, who decided he wanted to be a photographer and bought a whole lot of equipment. And came in here and just picked our brains. He wanted to know so much while he was working and then on his days off, we’re talking about he would come back in the dark room and he would chat with Jim and myself about photography, lenses, cameras, film, processing, all kinds of stuff. He never had formal training, but his enthusiasm was just so overwhelming. Eventually, he was hired part time and then full time. And he was a great compliment. He was very good, very artistic. Hard working. AC: What was his name? DR: Mike Franklin. Hispanic. He was a hard, hard, hard worker. AC: Is this still 1970's? DR: Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah. 10 �AC: Yeah, okay, so they—the paper’s expanding. DR: Right. Yeah. I will tell you how much it was expanding. Mr. Applebee had us all-everybody in the place--gather in the production department and he told us that he was going to give us a gift. He was starting a profit-sharing plan. Way back when. And he told us, early 70s? Maybe ‘72, ‘73? He told us then that by the time we all retired, if we stayed with the paper long enough, that we would have a lump sum of maybe $100,000 in our retirement fund. AC: And who knew the decline of the paper, huh? DR: Yeah. Soon after, because I think he sold the paper in ‘76, the profit sharing stopped. But those funds were kept up by the Chicago Tribune who bought the paper, and they invested in Chicago Union stock which did diddly forever. But even today I'm still receiving benefits from that retirement fund. A good portion of my retirement fund is Mr. Applebee. AC: Well good for him. It was the right thing to do. They couldn’t keep up a fancy salary, and you were working-DR: It was never fancy. But I made enough money on moonlighting—you were saying about the spouses—I would work all day and then take assignments. One of the editors would find jobs for you. A lot of jobs. But I would get a lot of jobs, people calling, do you do this? Sure, sure, sure, sure. And I would be working until twelve, one o'clock at night. AC: So when Applebee sells in the 70's, and you are now working for Chicago Tribune, did you sense a difference? Was there any-DR: Oh it was an earthquake of a change of a difference! They brought in a new publisher who brought in a new city managing editor, who got rid of 50% of the people in the place. At that point, ‘76 I think it was—myself, Jim, Mike, him, him, him—had six photographers on the staff when the paper sold. AC: And he let go half of them? DR: No. They started leaving by themselves. Jim Baird went to the Union, (San Diego Union Tribune), Mike Franklin went to the Union eventually, Sean Haffy later on who also went to the Union. Mike—not Mike Nelson, there was a Nelson character, also went to the Union. Some of them went to the L.A. Times after that. Another Hispanic, Manuel—Manuel something or other, forget his last name, was working there. AC: How did they backfill those jobs? Or was it back to you working crazy hours? DR: No, at that point the new regime that came in started laying off people left and right. And I was not--l had been a golden haired boy with Ron Kenney, and the old staff, and 11 �the Applebees. When the new staff came in, I was walking on quicksand because they were laying off so many people. I mean, they laid off half the staff for no reason! We had a city (editor) who was just an ass. Want me to name his name? AC: Sure. Well, its up to you. DR: Eh. A total ass. He would scream at people, verbally insulting people to their face because of their writing. He never did that to me. But I never trusted him, I never liked him. So about a year after the Chicago Tribune bought the paper, I was called up to the office to the publisher, John Armstrong. He told me I was no longer needed as the Chief Photographer. I could remain on the staff, same salary, same benefits, same hours. And no excuse. AC: So what was his point? DR: They would just fire people. Left and right. I think they wanted to get their own group. AC: Shake up everyone? DR: And before the city editor—oh, Tom Nolen, was the city editor’s name. He started the firing people after, I mean he was the one who would scream and yelling at people. And he would intimidate them, they would leave on their own. AC: Did these people come from another area? DR: All from the East Coast. AC: They were? DR: All from the East Coast. Chicago would just send them all down. In fact, all the comptrollers, all the business people. AC: So they wanted to move their own people here. DR: Oh yeah. They just moved their whole-AC: And get everyone that wanted out of Chicago to come here and have a job. Oh my. DR: And about that time—because working for the Applebees was a dream, it was a (dream) job come true. When Curt Babcock left—he went to the Albuquerque paper, George Cordry took it (Babcock’s position). And I used to tell my wife, if I ever have a dream job and a dream boss, it would be George Cordry, would be my boss. And a year later, he became my boss. And he was just a fantastic boss. AC: So things settle down? 12 �DR: Well, yeah, Ron Kenny—George Cordry was let go. All the City Editors were let go, they put their own staff in. Ron Kenney who had been Managing Editor, became Assistant Publisher and they gave him an office next to John Armstrong. Second floor, with absolutely nothing to do. No assignments, no writing, nothing. The gave an office, a desk, a phone, a typewriter. He said he read the San Diego Union from page to everything, the LA Times every day. Then he would go to lunch. Come back and sit around with nothing to do. Eventually-AC: So was that their way of letting go people without having benefits? I mean-DR: Well, I don't know what their deal was. When Applebee-AC: Not giving them unemployment? They didn’t want to give them unemployment? DR: I don’t know what the deal was. AC: Or the contract or something? The contract-DR: Maybe it was in the contract with Applebee. But what Applebee did when he sold the paper, I believe he sold it for $15 million dollars. He gave all the managers something like $100,000 each. AC: Bonus? DR: Yeah. And every employee—paid them $100 for every year they worked for the paper. Handed everybody checks before he left. And I don't know whether Ron Kenney, who was Assistant Publisher, what kind of deal he had, but he had his money and eventually he quit and moved to Pennsylvania, bought a little store, and I think he started a little store, hotel or motel. Eventually he came back and went to work for the San Diego Union as editorial writer. A good writer. Ron Kenny’s a good writer. AC: You know, I’m thinking, and you tell me, if this is this a good place to stop, because you know the transcription on 35 minutes—you know I’m going to be doing (unintelligible). But do you—is a good stop the Chicago Tribune years? DR: Sure. They were not fun. Not fun. In fact let me tell you a little story. When they moved in, after a year or so, one of my favorite reporters, Bob MacDonald, a columnist had retired and we would get coffee almost every morning. And I told him about my problems with the Chicago Tribune and with John Armstrong. How I was walking on eggshells. I didn't want to lose my job, my security. I loved the town. I didn't want to move anywhere. At that point I had family here, I had roots here, I didn’t want to go anywhere. So I talked to MacDonald about my problems and he said, “Do you like the job, do you like your work?” “Yeah, but they’re not giving me a whole lot of assignments.” Maybe one or two a day, where I was taking five, six, seven assignments. I was busy—you know, “ubiquitous Rios.” He said, “Tell you what, take their check, cash it, spend it, live it up. Don't worry about that. If they want to fire you, eventually they will. If they don't, they too will get fired some day.” And they did. Tom Nolen got canned. 13 �END SESSION 2 14 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rios, Dan. Interview transcript, April 15, 2017. Description An account of the resource Daniel Flores Rios, born in Hanford, California. April 10th, 1939 to Theodore and Jennie Rios, was the Chief Photographer at the Escondido Times-Advocate and North County Times newspapers. In this second interview conducted by Alexa Clausen, Dan Rios discusses starting work for the Escondido Times-Advocate and the beginning of his career at newspaper which was then owned by the Applebee and Carlton families. Rios discusses his work days, the paper's staffing, and his enjoyment in working for the Times-Advocate and in living in Escondido. Rios also discusses the selling of the newspaper to the Chicago Tribune Company and the changes that wrought with new editors, staff layoffs, and a much more difficult working environment. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Daniel Flores Rios Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Alexa Clausen Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-15 Subject The topic of the resource Chicago Tribune (Firm) Escondido Times-Advocate (Escondido, Calif.) Photojournalists Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Escondido (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RiosDan_ClausenAlexa_2017-04-15_transcript Community history Latine experience