9 10 196 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d2e38ab1e684ee0573d588a35324c907.pdf a210bb7c0cb693c64cc55b3d104d1376 PDF Text Text JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 Ayana Ford: Today is April 6th, 2021, at one-o-eight PM. I am Ayana Ford. I'm a student at Cal State San Marcos, and today I am interviewing Jake Northington for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration between the CSUSM Black Student Center and CSUSM University Special Archives (Special Collections). Mr. Northington, thank you for being with me today. I’d like to start by talking about your childhood. When and where were you born? Jake Northington: Oh, I was born in Illinois. I'm from East St. Louis, Illinois. That's where I grew up. And I moved around a lot as a child. I was adopted quite a few times and that allowed me to stay in a lot of cities. A lot of States, I went to quite a few elementary, middle schools, high schools. I went to four or five different high schools and I kind of moved around a lot, so, and ended up here in California. Ayana Ford: Wow. So that actually brings us to, our next question. How did you come to understand Blackness? Because I know by moving around to different places that would change your understanding. Jake Northington: Well, the city I'm from is 97% Black, and it's been that way for hundreds of years. So East St. Louis is in Illinois. Most people have never been there. And then people have heard of St. Louis, Missouri. Well both sides of the city is divided by the Mississippi River. And East St. Louis was a town established by Black people and it's been Black forever. And one of the major things that happened in that city was during the industrial revolution, like you've got a big race riot that happened in about 1918 that decimated the city, the East side of the city. And it's been decimated like that since then. And many of those places and the industries that were burned down are still burned down today. So even when I grew up, a lot of those places was still burned down and dilapidated just, it stayed like that for so many years and it's been a place of poverty, but within that ninety-seven plus percent of the population is Black. So growing up, I got to see Black people drive cars, be the principals, be police officers, drive the city bus, you know, they're driving Greyhound buses. They were mayors, city council people and all of these things that even the person delivering the mail – the person delivering to the doors and all of the shops, it's just a big group of Blackness. And I got to see Blackness from all different levels of economics and education. So I'm in an area where I get to see Black people from economically the lowest level and economically a higher level. So being able to see Black people among those different class groups and those different educational groups, it allows you to see people for who they are. When you can only see another group of people living wealthy and rich, it could kind of skew your view of that entire group. So, because I grew up in an area like that, I didn't get a skewed view of my own people. Ayana Ford: So do you feel like that helped you become more comfortable with yourself as a whole? Jake Northington: I was never uncomfortable. I would answer it that way. So I never had to get to a point to become comfortable being Black. My teachers are Black. So when I grew up, there was no such thing as being the only Black kid in class that wasn't a part of my upbringing. Everybody in class was Black; teachers, middle, the principal, everybody, the Superintendents. So that wasn't an issue growing up so that every Black person there is practicing Black culture. The food, the music, the art, the corporations, the festivals, everything that's happening in a park, every holiday that we celebrate, everything was full. And so these are not things I had to pick up later in life or learn later in life. Transcription by Ernest 1 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 Ayana Ford: So how has the Black social justice and activism such as a civil rights movement, feminism, the Natural Hair Movement and the Black Lives Matter protest affected you? Jake Northington: Oh, well, so the civil rights movement definitely affected us. But in a way that's a little different for me because I--you got a lot of integration. You got a lot of Black people in areas they weren't, they were not allowed to before. You started to see, maybe an area of homes where you'll now have a few more Black families that never existed before, or you'll start to see Black people being allowed in certain malls or restaurants. Those things start to become a lot more commonplace, but growing up in East St. Louis, that doesn't matter. That didn't change. So you could--the people there were concentrated. So we didn't get to see all these different races of people and other cultures. We got to sit together, build together, fail, and grow together and go through all of the tribulations of life together. And you could get your answers from your own group of people. You could get--you know, you may get chastised, you may get corrected, you may be taught to do this, taught to do that. And it gives you an influx of empowerment. Like if I reach out and I want to know like, Ooh, what happened with Black people 50 years ago? I don't have to go to the local library and read it. I could find someone 70 or 80 years old that I can just talk to or ask what did Black people go through during the civil rights? These people are right here in front of me every day, they went through the civil rights. I don't have to go to a library or a com(puter) or something like that. And I think that's what people who grew up outside of a Black city, they may have to do some of those things. Well, I did not. So the civil rights effect on me didn't come with a lot of integration. The civil rights effect on other people, they may have been forced those to go into a lot of integration. And with that integration, they could have lost some sense of culture or some of the things that I was afforded to have, growing up in a predominantly Black city, going to a Black middle school, elementary, high school and things like that. So, the civil rights movement, you know, it had an effect as far as activism. Being at a Black school, we always celebrated Black History Month. Like throughout the year, we did things such as we had to give book reports or oral reports on every single Black person in history. And most of the time, these were all the Black people during the civil rights movement. So all eighteen or twenty of us, in second grade class, we'd all have to give out oral report and dress up as that person. So--and this is something I brought later to San Marcos as a student--and that's why I got that from. Being able to do that connected us to it. And it allowed us to see what we had gone through as a people, where we're currently at in East St. Louis, and then to kind of (technical difficulties) cast. That's what it allowed for me, that particular social movement. But then you get the, uh, the Black Panther Party movement, things like that. We got to see a lot of these people actively in the streets protecting other Black people. And some of these things were available in East St. Louis as well. So a lot of chapters that have Black Panther Party, some of those people came from Chicago and they will come down and then they would help protect or teach people different protective measures or teach more about history. And, that those two movements within my whole community, as far as people wanting to know more about history, people wanting to know what can they do actively in their community to correct some of the things that are issues in their community. So those two things had a great effect on my life and my upbringing. Now, when you get to some of the other movements, not as much, because I'm not actively involved in newer movements, but when as a kid, these other movements really had an effect on my mindset and give me a reason to look at Black people as a whole group of people and not just the people here on my street, the people in my school, the people in my city, you know, it allowed me to Transcription by Ernest 2 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 open my mind up to Black people on the planet. And having Black teachers all of through school before leaving, East St. Louis, having those Black teachers in all of this, this Black community as my baseline, once I left and going to these other cities, I was already, you know, in a strong understanding of who I am and come from. Ayana Ford: So, I imagine that's a big shift for coming to San Marcos. Did you come directly from (East St. Louis to) San Marcos? So, did you go straight to San Marcos after that? Or no? Jake Northington: I came here for work, so I completed my job. I was in the military after I completed my time in the military. It's right here. And you know, it was right down the street. It's like ten miles down the street, the military base (Camp Pendelton). So in this case, I wasn’t trying to move again with so, so much moving going on early in my life. I wasn’t interested in continuing to move. So I just chose to apply to the school (Palomar College). It’s the only school I applied to. Ayana Ford: Really. So was it--so you said you came, so you came from the military, so it was, it wasn't a really big shift coming from the military to the San Marcos meaning, culturally, or was it an easy shift because you got to be around a bunch of different cultures? Jake Northington: Yeah. So, I would say, no, it wasn't a difficult shift because even in the military, you're around every state and multiple countries. A lot of people from other countries joined the military to get citizenship and stuff like that. Even within the military, you're getting half of the states. At one job, half of the states are covered with people from different states. And I was in the Marine Corps specifically. There's not a lot of Black people in the Marine Corps. Most of the Marine Corps is non-Black so we already around other people and dealing with other peoples’ culture and stuff like that. And then prior to joining the military, I had already lived in Dallas, Texas, and I lived in Chicago. I lived in a bunch of other cities. So I was engaged in (technical difficulties) privy to being in the first university I went to. I went to college right out of high school and didn't work out too well, so I wasn't prepared for college in a way that I needed to be. That's kind of how it happened from the city I come from. It really doesn't prepare you for college. A lot of the effects of the, what is that called? They put a thing out in the eighties that was no child left behind policy. So it kind of turned all of our testing into multiple choice. And that was no more fill in the blank (unclear) of measure. So it was just pass or fail and they were just trying to pass everybody. So a lot of people were not prepared mathematically, through English, or through science and reasoning to even walk into college. It did a lot of us that disservice. So I had to take a little bit of a U-turn in order to come into the university and be successful. And that U-turn was the military. And that's what brought me to California. And then after the military, this school's right here. So that's why I chose San Marcos. There's no special reason (otherwise). Ayana Ford: So this--you think this, this U-turn helped you prepare for your coming to San Marcos with everything going around with so many different cultures that are entering the military? Jake Northington: Well, I mean, again, I had already faced it before the military, ‘cause I'd already been in universities and I'd already live in other cities. So I was already prepared even Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 3 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 before joining the military. That's why I had no issues. So it's just a repetitive understanding that all of this is not East St. Louis. And everything I learned in East St. Louis, it doesn't necessarily show up everywhere, you know, it became more disheartening. So it wasn't a shock. It was more disheartening that outside of East St. Louis, I didn't go to a lot of places where they had a large congregation of Black people living at home, going to work, having all of these big family events and things like this. So that was more disheartening. I wouldn't call it a culture shock because this is still America. So I know I still live in the United States. So (laughs). Ayana Ford: So what was your first impression of San Marcos as a Black student? What was your first impression? Jake Northington: (unclear) That I didn't see any other Black students. The first impression was where are all the Black students at? Like, where are my people at? And now you walk around on a regular basis, every day you may see eight Black people. If you're on campus for four or five hours, you might see eight black people. And half of those are faculty and staff. So almost never saw the Black students, especially in my, uh, my study. I was in Visual and Performing Arts. And I think the entire time I only saw one other Black student in my class. Ayana Ford: Oh my goodness. So, can you, what, where did the student--(technological difficulties)--Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry. So you were, you were, were you at the (unclear), grand opening, Black Student Center’s grand opening? Jake Northington: Yes. Ayana Ford: So you got to see it come to be. How do you think that it impacted your involvement on campus? Being able to see this come to be? Jake Northington: Well, I already knew it was happening because I was a part of the, some of the other students who were working to make it come about. So before I got to the school, I was already coming here and being active because the first school I went to here was Palomar. So I went to Palomar College, which is the junior college across the street from the school. So I was already going to Palomar College. And while at Palomar College, I would come to San Marcos or some of the events and, you know, they put out a lot of different events that they were doing, and I would come to some of them, during kind of the U-hour (University Hour, noon to 1 pm on Tuesdays and Thursdays, a time devoted to student mingling and interaction) on campus. So I was able to witness some of these things, and then there were groups of students trying to start the process of getting a Black Student Center. So these people were already doing this. And I'm quite sure this has been tried before as well, but this time it became successful. So I'm sure that's not the only time the Black student body asks for a place like this, but it was just the right group of students this time. And that was the very excellent Black students. They pushed it and they put all the measures in place. And then I just got involved immediately because when I got to the campus and said where all the Black students, I got involved immediately, I saw a couple of Black students that were out here really active and trying to make things happen. And I'm a person like that. So I just attached myself to some of those people and did what I could with this entire project. So I was along the lines of the project and I kind of added here and there wherever Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 4 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 I could. And that was, uh, that was just a good group of students that were pushing to get their center. And I just happened to be one of them. Ayana Ford: So to backtrack, were you in-Jake Northington: So I know I, (technical difficulties). Say what? Ayana Ford: Oh, I'm sorry. You cut off. Jake Northington: Oh, okay. Ayana Ford: To backtrack: so were you, were you in any activities or anything that got you to be able to connect with more Black students on campus? Jake Northington: Yes, because when I first got here and I said, where were all the Black students immediately, I would stop people and be like, Hey, where's the BSU (Black Student Union) meetings held at where's this where's that, you know, you have to have a BSU! I mean, you got more than 10 Black students. You got to have a BSU. I would think, you know, so I found the people going to the meetings. I became a member immediately, you know, I started paying my dues. I went to every meeting and then I just kept asking for more. So I don't like things the way they are just because, you know, I think we deserved more than what we were getting. And then a few students felt the same. And then we decided to keep pushing for more, you know, every one of us has a part to play. So while some people wanted to operate, you know, the BSU, some people want to operate, like they had a Black Christian Ministries. Some people went other ways and then everybody has a part to play, to keep growing the Black community on campus. I wanted to find out things I could help do to grow the Black community on campus. And then this avenue of having a Black Student Center became one of them. So I just jumped in right into that and got involved. And that's what kind of segued me. So getting involved in the BSU segued to getting involved in this Black Student Center project. Ayana Ford: So, what do you think the role of the Black Student Center, Union was played with the Black Student Union (Center)? Like how did you, how did, what was your, did you have like a administrative role or were you just a student? Jake Northington: As far as the Black Student Center? Ayana Ford: Union. Jake Northington: Union? Oh, the Black Student Union, I was just a member. And then at one point I did run for one position. I didn't win it though. Somebody beat me out, but I did run for one position in one semester. But other than that, I was pretty active. I helped design some of the logos that they had for merchandise, I helped set up and break down events, things like that. So I was never an official officer, but I did the same thing many other students did, you know, so I didn't do anything special, but I just gave all the support I could. Showed up to every event I could and helped set up and helped put on some of the events, you know, just like everyone else. But then the activism within the Black Student Center project, this is when it started to kick up a little more, because I did other things on campus. I was a part of the College is 4 Me seminar at that time for the high school students trying to come to college. I was able to speak on some of Transcription by Ernest 5 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 those panels and then this led to other opportunities. So then I started to get selected to be involved in other occasions. So then I started to go to ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) meetings on the regular. Every week I would go to ASI meetings, take notes, say whatever I needed to say and try to transfer some of the things that the Black students were asking for in BSU meetings and try to bring some of those things and present them ASI meetings. If I could. And also sometimes those things happen and then them extended meetings. And just any meeting I saw happening on campus--they used to do a check-in with the vice president. They used to, they had all these open forums, I would go to everything. So that's the way I started and supplanted myself, as far as trying to help create some change and just attach myself with groups that were creating change, or sometimes create our own group to create some change. So then when, you know, as we got further and further along with Black Student Center, these other students were doing their part to start the resolution (for the creation of the BSC). And then I was just one of the students that came along to make sure we spoke up in support of it during some of those ASI meetings. And once it got voted on and it all got agreed to, then we had to have students to work there. And we also had to have people come interview for the position to be the director. So along those lines, I became even more involved. So I was selected to be one of the eight people to sit down and have luncheons with the candidates for the position. So I was able to do that. And we were, you know, in a conference room and we had to do some little, like just a little enclosed meeting and luncheon and kinda see what each person was standing and what they offered. And then I went to every one of the people's presentations to be the next candidate. And then I kept doing that with other positions as well that were around the campus. So that was another part I played. Also, we all sat down as a Black Student Center--as a Black Student Union, a lot of us sat down to come up with the name of the Black Student Center. So there's many names thrown out there. So in that it's called the Black Student Center, I helped vote for that too. You know, some students voted for that and I was just one of those, some students voted for different names, and this is a name that everybody kind of agreed to settle on. We also had to put in evaluation sheets for the presentations we liked the best from the different candidates. So I was able to do that as a student and able to do that as one of the eight people selected to be on the little small group panel. And I was the only student on that (panel). Everybody else was a staff member, but I was the only student. So then from that, I got hired. So I was one of the first people to get hired into the Black Student Center. And I was hired there. And then I actually designed the logo that they still use today. You know, I'm happy they still use it, but I'm like, it's been a couple of years. I was surprised they haven't gotten somebody to change it, but that's nice that every time I see it, I just remember. I did that and they--there's been like a lot of merchandise and just, you know, lapel pins, t-shirts and the space. All of the photos for the first two or three years, I took them all. So at that grand opening, all of the photos of the grand opening, a lot of those things you see as for a lot of the activities from the first couple of years, different video clips and stuff like that, you know, a larger majority of those things I did. There was a few other people that took pictures and videos, but the large majority of it, I did. That was one--that was my position when I worked in the Center, I did a lot of media and a lot of archiving. Ayana Ford: Wow. So what did you think that the student, staff and (faculty) involved in the creation of the Black Student Center felt like they needed? While you were in the meetings? Jake Northington: Well, one is we needed a space that was our own. That's just number one. I would think all groups need a space that's their own when you're coming into a university system. Because we're going to be here for awhile. You're going to come to class, you're going to Transcription by Ernest 6 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 be here for six, eight hours a day. Some people are spending ten to twelve hours like me. I was one of those students that was on campus ten to twelve hours a day. You are a student who works on campus. So now you're taking your classes and your work here. You have to have some level of comfort and security. And then all of these things occurred during the height of a lot of shootings and murders of Black people that we all were able to witness over the course of these same years. So we're talking about the center opening in 2017, but this comes off the backs of the Sandra Bland murder, the Trayvon Martin murder that Tamir Rice murder, the Mike Brown murder all the way back to back to back, leading up to right before we got a space. So all the anxiety was constantly building amongst Black people, just in the country and you know around the planet. So with that high level of anxiety, a lot of Black students just felt a little more uncomfortable or insecure being on a college campus, that maybe they didn't feel as much support as they had once said they needed. So, having the space is something people asked for, because now we can have programs specifically for Black people that didn't exist prior, we could create support groups. We could have fellow mentoring from other Black students to Black students or Black faculty to Black students. We could have a hub or a home on campus where we could just relax and take all the stresses of being a Black college student or just a Black citizen in the country. So it becomes a place of that. So you get a little, a piece, a little home feeling, and a reinvigoration of why you're here. (technical difficulties) Ayana Ford: Can you hear me? Jake Northington: Yeah. Yeah. Ayana Ford: I'm sorry. You cut off again. I'm so sorry. So did you feel in the beginning, did you feel any pushback for the creation of Black Student Center in the upper--from people above? Jake Northington: Oh yeah. There's tons of it. I got it all printed out. People physically looked at us and gave us nasty looks walking around. This is faculty, staff, and students. Would physically look at us in a way of like, You don't belong here. So, before the center open Black people will be walking around sporadically, going to classes or something like that. And we were not grouped up as much. The only time you would maybe see a group of Black students is on the way to the BSU meeting on the, on the way back from the BSU meeting. And that may be the only times you can see groups. Once we get a Black Student Center, it's now a constant that everybody on campus is now constantly able to view, look at these groups of Black students right here around the center of campus at the USU (University Student Union). So this was a new thing for the campus. So we started to get nasty looks. We got a lot of students disagreeing with us having a space. We got people saying that, Where's the white student center? We had a few people even saying, I want my student fees back from you, (technical difficulties) my student fees going to the Black Student Center. Some people said that the Black Student Center is separation and segregation. All of these things were placed on the school's website, the school's Facebook page, the school's Instagram page. And, you know, the school had to do their job of correcting some of these things. But this was the feel of a lot of students, faculty, and staff, and some of them voiced these things. So we did get a lot of backlash. Ayana Ford: Do you feel like the school did a good job on responding to that, to the backlash that you guys received? Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 7 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 Jake Northington: Ah, I mean, I would say the school did what they could because, I mean, if somebody states in opinion like that, that they don't want their money going to this, that's not an offense. You didn't break the law. You didn't. I mean, so what could the school do besides, Okay, we don't enforce, or we don't support that type of rhetoric so we'll take it down. I mean, I would say the school did that much. That’s tough to take in that manner. People get to feel how they feel and state the things they state, as long as they don't go over a particular line of, of racializing things or something like that. I don't think there was much else the school could do as far as what people would write in posts. Now treatment received to students or any physical threats or something like that, now I would expect the campus to do a little bit more. But just people giving nasty looks, I mean, we had students in the front and taking pictures, going, Look, it's a Black Student Center, wow, what is this? And they come make jokes. We had groups of students that would dare each other--groups of students who were not Black--they would dare each other to run in the Black Student Center and say something and run out. So that happened every week for probably the first semester, that entire first semester, second semester we were open. So it was a lot, it was a lot of little things like that. And people would come in and just try to crack a joke and, “I'm not Black, can I even stand in here” and then laugh and run out. Yeah. And that's again, disheartening, but that's not an actual rule that you broke. I mean, so what could we expect to happen? But it did expose the unaccepting behavior that a lot of people on campus had when it came towards Black people and Black students. So that behavior got exposed. So I would say that's a good thing. Even though it's a little bit of a struggle to go through it, but I would rather the truth come out. So, you know, people kind of get this from campus climate surveys, but we get to see it happen in real time. We get to see the actual discomfort or people saying, “No, I can't go in there.” But we didn't really see all of these things happening in the same manner with the other spaces! You know, you don't hear people saying, “Well, I don't belong to that racial group so I'm not going to walk in that space. I don't belong to this group. I'm not going to walk in that space. There’s a line I can't cross.” I didn't see these things. So if it happened, I don't know about it, but I didn't see these things. Well, we constantly got that. We had people that would walk up with their group of friends, one Black student, and then four or five other students. And they would walk up to the center and then everybody would stop right at the door and a Black student would keep walking in and turn around and go, “Hey, what are y'all doing? Y'all can come in here.” “Are you sure? Are we allowed in here?” And we had so much of that and it still happens now, but it happens rarely now. It was a common occurrence every day. So it took a while for accepting of having a Black Student Center. And that was from top to bottom. Ayana Ford: So on a more positive note. So you said you attended the Black Student Center’s grand opening? Jake Northington: Yes. Ayana Ford: How did it feel to actually go into the center for the first time? Jake Northington: (laughter) I had already been in the center for the first time months earlier. Remember, so I helped pick out some of the items that we put in there. I helped, you know, I selected all of the books that we chose. I actually went down to do the purchase of the bookshelf. Went out and picked the items that went on the wall with some of the art pieces. So I had already been in the center, months and months and months, many times before it opened. And then we had to do planning to actually have the grand opening. So of course I worked there, so I was a part of the planning process. So it wasn't like a shock and awe to me because I was a part of the Transcription by Ernest 8 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 planning process. But I do understand how much that meant to the whole campus. But again, I'm coming from a different perspective. I'm coming from a city. That's nice. This doesn't give me an aha or shock. For me, it was more of a, Okay, good. This is the first steppingstone for us. We needed to have this. And this is now something that can become a foundation. Like this space is always going to be here. Now let's continue to build some programs now that are going to help Black students on throughout the future. So that was more where my mindset was. Ayana Ford: Okay. To backtrack, how did the planning go? How'd you make those decisions on what needs to be put up and presented in the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: Well, I was--I just knew it had to be positive promotion of Black people, because all that's ever talked about in many of our classes is if they bring up the Black community, they're talking about slavery, they're talking about riots, they're talking about social upheaval and, or they're talking about sports. So, culturally we're not seeing a promotion, or any type of surrounding positive discussions with Black people, staff and faculty, students, anything, because everything we were mentioning, it includes the faculty and staff too. You know, they've been here for years and years. Some of them had been here two decades. Everything our Black students are facing just for two to four or five years, the faculty and staff has faced the entire time of their employment. So this includes them as well. I knew that everything that went up in here had to support the Black culture (technical difficulties)-- pick out. Hey, let's get some nice photos of Blackness in its most positive light. Let's get some photos of Black men, Black women, Black families, Black children. And then the books I selected were particular books of some of the most famous Black writers and scholars that--these are books that need to be read. I created this whole list. I went and talked to other people; other people added to the list. So it was a collaborative effort to make these things happen. And then we took a few people with us and we walked around and we just picked out items out of certain stores, you know, we looked online. And it was like, yes, these things are necessary. So you know, we have a big painting of Marcus Garvey. We have a--there's just so many different things that was just necessary. So that's kinda what we thought about. We thought about the past. We thought about the faculty and staff. And then we thought about the current students and the students to come, what would work to unify it all. And it's an uplifting thing to view and to see when you walk in here. And we also had a lot of students that are born in Africa, but they moved from Africa and they now live here in the San Diego area. Some of these students even brought things from home to help decorate the space. So, and that was, you know, they did that on their own. And they came and asked, they said, Hey, can we donate this? So we can put some of these African pieces in the space. So everybody added to it so that wasn't, you know--it was a part of my job, but everybody added to it. Ayana Ford: Hmm. So how do you feel like the art and the decor of the Black Student Center helped the center? Like how do you feel like it impacted the feeling of the Center? Jake Northington: Oh, a little more edifying. You tend to feel a little more at home. You tend to feel a little more comfortable. You walk in and you feel the culture and you just--now you like being on campus. Like you don't just run from class and leave campus and never come back until your next class at 8am. It allowed students to hang around a little bit more, which allows them to Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 9 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 now talk a little bit more, which now allows them to build more relationships. So these things were not happening before the Center. And then we can't just have it empty too. So now when you kind of decorate the area in culture, it just helps with all of these things. And then now you constantly have positive images and then positive literature and all of these different things to connect a Black person to go, “Wait a minute! This has been done before.” Because we had this big picture of Tulsa in 1921, Tulsa, Oklahoma, and it listed how many hospitals, how many banks, how many schools, how many restaurants, how many train and truck systems that existed through this picture of the people. And we had a picture like that of the Harlem Renaissance. And for Black students, faculty and staff, to walk in and see this, it reminds you again, Hey, look at what our people have done throughout the times. I'm here now in a university, it'll help you like motivate you a little bit more to push a little further, to do a little bit more. That's kind of how the artwork and the people kind of work together. And this is what makes it so much, so necessary to kind of culturally decorate the place. Ayana Ford: Hmm. Can you tell me a bit about the early focuses of the Black Student Center? Like the initiatives, programs, events, and focuses? Jake Northington: Yeah. So one of the main early focuses was, again, where all the Black people? So our main focus was we have to get the Black people in the center. So it didn't happen fast. So, you know, if you go to the school right now, it's like a regular thing. But it wasn't. And half of them worked there. So we had to promote the space. As far as this place is here! It exists. Come stop by. Let's go. If you're walking into the USU and you go stop and get a bagel and some coffee, take two more steps. Here's the center, you know, so students would come through and keep passing it and keep passing it and not think because the space was already there. It was just, it was a different room. So the room got rearranged. And then once they put up the sign and everything, it's--all of the spaces have a sign. It doesn't stand out. It's silver and black. All of the spaces have a sign. That's not going to point it out so much. So you kind of have to stop. So what we would do is we would stand in front of the, in front of the center! And kind of stand outside. And two or three of us are standing out there, like during our work hours and stop students, “Hey, hey, have you seen the Black Student Center? We just opened.” You know, we're doing this, we're doing this, we've got this program, this event coming up. And then we would, during U-hour, we would be out there and have a table and we would stop students. And keep telling us in class, other students that work there, they would make announcements in class. A big part was to get the students in the center. So we all had to keep stopping students and keep telling them. That was a daily thing. Hey, you need to tell at least five or ten people today about the space and keep telling, keep telling. So we kept going, kept going, kept going, kept going, and kept going. And then, the Black faculty and staff had a lot of help in that because they used to do like Black student welcomes. And it was a little smaller than it is now. Because now all of these entities get to (technical difficulties) and the Black faculty and staff would do like a Black student welcome. And then now you're able to put all these things together and now it made the welcome a little bigger. And now you have a place to bring the Black students to, and you're not just talking to them outside the building. So this all now started to bring more students in. And then during the orientations, we're now allowed to have a table at the orientations all during the summer. So now this helped with recruiting. So recruiting people to the space was number one. Number two we're trying to get in Transcription by Ernest 10 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 the school like as a student in the school, when now we got the students here, we need to get them in the space. We're all trying to recruit high school students to the school. So we will go around to the different high schools and speak to the different high schools. We also would go speak to the different community colleges in the San Diego area and let them know, Hey, San Marcos is a place to be. We have a Black Student Center as well. And that kind of helped bring in some of the Black students. So even while I worked there, I ended up seeing about eight Black students that I met at high school and recruited coming to San Marcos. So that was definitely a good feeling to see people that I spoke to when they were ninth to tenth grade and tried to, Hey, you just--you should, you should come to San Marcos. You know, we're building the Black culture there. You live here. Your parents are here. Bring in you in your parents and then them and their parents would show up to orientation. You talk to them again. And then they ended up making a decision to stay there. We actually got to directly affect and help Black students come to the campus. Without having a Black Student Center, we don't have as good a sell. So it's kind of helped improve Black students even applying to the school. Another thing was about grades. We need recidivism. We need to, we need to keep students here. So we know that freshman year is a big year for a lot of Black students. And we have a large amount of Black students that drop out in their freshman year, all throughout the CSU and UC systems. We need to impact that. We need to get those numbers down. We don't need people dropping out so much. So a part of this is there was a mentorship and that was a tutor program. And then the center connected with the tutoring center to try to help students and we let them come in here and give a, give a lot of presentations. And then maybe we can get some Black students working in the tutoring center and they do their hours here in our space. So that was an initiative that was pushed. And I was actually a tutor as well for some of the Black students. So now where these Black students may be uncomfortable or may not feel like they can get as much help from some professors or some other classmates or anything like that, they now were able to get that help in the Black Student Center. And then another thing was programming things. So getting students in there, recruiting students or recidivism and increasing people's GPA. And then, then we also got programming. And with that programming we're--we want to bring Black specific programming. That's going to increase students, graduating, going into higher education, learning more about their history, learning more about politics and society. And then what ways that they can maybe get through, past, and over traumas that are facing the whole Black community, what ways and what measures they can use moving forward. Ayana Ford: So do you think that's the main purpose of the center’s creation in your opinion? Jake Northington: For me? Yes, but I think other people would give different responses because I think everybody gets something different from the center. When you aim to do this, this, this, this, and this, and now each one of us can take what we need from the space. Like, Okay, I really need this. I really need that. I really need that. So if nothing else everybody loves it because it is a space for Black students. So if nothing else, I would think that would be the one thing everybody could say. Ayana Ford: Do you feel like that purpose should be--it's especially being accomplished now? Jake Northington: Yes, it definitely is. Yeah. Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 11 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 Ayana Ford: I'm glad to hear. So what has been the impact that you see the Black Student Center is doing on the campus today? Jake Northington: It's bringing Black students and faculty together every day in an ongoing situation that never (technical difficulties) never was given a space, a space for Black faculty and students to operate together. So a lot of Black faculty would put on events. They would put on presentations; they would give workshops and things like this. Well, now having a center, this could happen right here in the center. So now we have directly faculty and staff that are Black, giving presentations to Black students. So where we may not have as many Black teachers, all of us, all of the Black students now have an opportunity to have that back and forth in some of those mentorships. And getting some of those can, maybe they can get help with resume writing, maybe they can get help with mental health and counseling. So all of these things were able to happen now to have that space for the faculty and staff to kinda mix and mingle with the students in a professional setting to where we can make these things happen now. Some of those lacking areas that we have for Black students, those things were now able to get accomplished because we have a space to put these people in, in an everyday basis. So that was a lot tougher to do when you just have Black students walking around and then you, you may never cross paths. A lot of faculty and staff got to meet students they would never normally meet because we have a hub now – we have a home base. So I think that's one of the most important things that have happened. And so many students now are more engaging of each other. Where come from all the Black people speak to each other. I came out here It wasn't so much the same because people are more spread out and they may be not used to seeing so many Black people like that in one space. I actually heard that from many students from the Murrieta Riverside County area that came to San Marcos, most of them had the same response. “It was ten Black people at my high school,” stuff like that. Every day I was the only Black person in class. Well, now all of those students are here and they're sharing those same stories. And now they can kind of help each other out and help get through some of these things and talk about, you know, how that may have affected their identity, has affected their personality, or affected their self-esteem. So then we can address some of these things. I mean, that's just some of the things that have come about, since having a Black Student Center, Ayana Ford: How do you feel like the Black Student Center impacted you personally? Jake Northington: I mean, hey, I got a job (laughter). I wasn't--personally, it gave me a space to use some of my skills. I think that's how it impacted me the most. So I was able to practice my photography. I didn't take pictures before I came to school, but those things kind of happened at the same time. I started working at the Center like right at the same time. All of that kind of came together at once. So now I got to practice my photography and I've since put out a bunch of photobooks and I've done so many different photo projects on campus for the Black Student Center. And of course, archived all of those pictures. The twenty thousand photos I've taken over the course of a few years. It gave me time to practice my study. So my actual program is the Visual and Performing Arts with an emphasis in art and technology. Everything from class with my occupation and with going through different programs within the center. I was able to bring everything from the center and all of those became my projects for class, all of my homework projects, all of my midterm things I had to do in art classes. I got everything from the Black Student Center, even some of my sociology classes and papers I had to write. I was able to get all Transcription by Ernest 12 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 of my information I needed from the center. So then other students did the same thing as well. If I have a paper to write and I needed, and I need books to read, I go right to the center. And I got all these, these books to choose from, so I don't have stuff that already exists, or I need to interview students cause I'm doing my psych class, and I need to interview a couple of students, here they are right here in the center. I have to do these surveys for, for this class or that class. And I get to come out and hand out my surveys in the center. So many students were able to take advantage of those things, where they wouldn't be able to do before, because before I have to stand outside of the USU (University Student Union) and ask people to help me, Hey, would you like to take this survey for my class? Hey, would you like to? And that's what we were doing before I had to do that for one of my classes. Once we got the space, we could do it right here and get assistance with your projects, with homework, everything. And then we also were able to--I was so happy that I was able to help different students sign up for classes because so many students coming out of high school, don't look at college in the whole scope of: this is what I need to do freshman year, sophomore, junior, senior year. And I need to be transitioning into resume writing and application to grad school. All of those things don't necessarily hit our community in the same way it does for everybody else. We have to--and just me being able to help some of the students. I mean, I really enjoyed that cause you're able to go through an online process of signing up for classes. And now I could sit directly and talk to them through of, Hey, let's take two hard classes, two easy classes and one medium class and that'll be your five classes. Don't just put them all up here, you know? What they put out here for people to take is a skeleton to work off of. You don't necessarily have to just take these classes in a row like that because you're coming from a lower economic area, maybe from downtown San Diego, maybe they didn't concentrate so much in mathematics. So now you need to take a few math classes before you get to college math--then okay, that's fine! Now let's take that at a junior college or let's take one of the lower maths we can, online. Let's take this, this, this, or how about this? Some of us started to take classes together so we could help each other and not just be in a class by ourselves and not have anybody to bounce ideas off of, or ask for assistance with our homework. And now we can share a book. A lot of those things now we're able to happen because we had the space. And I was just so happy to be able to help other students because I didn't have a difficult time through school. I mean, I got all A’s and everything and a couple of B’s. That's all, that's what I had the whole time, San Marcos. So, you know, I didn't have a problem with class whatsoever, but I knew other people did so to be able to help people, and help them with papers and help them with getting their courses together, help them with any remediation they needed. And it's just to help your people. When that's your intent, it feels good to be able to do that. And I think a lot of people got that out of the center too. Not just me. Ayana Ford: What do you expect to see next for the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: Hmm. That five-year anniversary! That's what I expect to see next. But I mean, John (Rawlins III, Director of the Black Student Center) is doing such an amazing job, this guy needs a Nobel peace prize. It's just so much that that's happening. It's almost (unclear) so he does, he does a lot of work in collaboration with other (student identity and inclusion) centers. So, so much collaboration has happened. It seems like he has that down pat, but for the center itself, more programs! Like a wider touch in San Diego. We need to really get San Marcos on the Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 13 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 map in the same level as San Diego State. You walk around anywhere in San Diego County, and everybody's heard of San Diego State. So it's an option. It's 13-year-olds that have heard of San Diego State, so it's an option. We need to make CSU San Marcos and option for Black students. So this means we have to do more promotion. We have to stretch out more to the middle schools and high schools and getting the word out. We have to do more collaboration and more efforts to do programming outside of the campus, or at least show ourselves outside of the campus and people need to know that there's a Black hub of people at Cal State San Marcos. So that's one thing that I would like to see that needs to happen. One thing that is in the works is the Black alumni chapter. I started everything rolling with that and it just pulling people in to be a part of it and everybody can play whatever role they choose. So to have a Black alumni network. Now we have something for our graduates to fill a need. “I'm looking for employment. I am looking to go to grad school, I'm looking to get a PhD. I'm looking to relocate.” Whatever, we need an alumni network to help with that. So for us to not have our own alumni network would do us a disservice. Just continuing to build that Black network up at San Marcos. So I paid my alumni dudes. I'm full alumni, lifetime membership. Now I'm going to help support in any type of way I can. So, let me see what else? I would like to see us have a bigger space. As our student population is growing, we need a bigger space. These were, this was a very small room, and they knocked the wall down to try to open it up a little bit. This was a very small prayer room before it became the Black student center. It needs to be bigger space. I think they (other student centers on campus) had more of an intention of this is going to be a space for this particular thing. They're a little more wide open and they have a little more space. But when it came to the Black Student Center, there was not a designated area. So they had to find a space and kinda adjust the space to give to us, but it was just a smaller space. Well, the Black student population is growing. We also need the space to be used by Black faculty and staff. I would like to see us get a bigger space, much bigger space, at least three times. It's entirely too small. I would like to see the center get a graduate assistantship. So like the rest of the spaces have, there should be a graduate assistantship at the space and also a user space for, I would like to see more archives. And that's the whole point of this project. That's why I--I mean, I don't know if they told you, but this was my idea. I came up with this idea to add this project. After I was involved in another project I did where I got interviewed and I was like, you know what? It would be great if we can do this for the center, because this can't be lost. All of these things that so many, so many Black students that came here did--maybe even the Black students way before us. And then some of their names get lost and they don't get mentioned. We have to recognize all of the Black people that made the effort to get us this space because this space is a foundation now. And while we have the time and it's only been a couple of years, let's get that story told, let's put it out there, let's set the foundation and let's keep building the archives of the space. So I would like all the Black students, faculty and staff involved to be a part of this. This is something to look back to, like this was done, this was established, and we all came together to make this happen. So that does a lot of great work as far as inspiration. If you get a Black student as a freshman coming into the school and they see this was done by Black students, faculty and staff came together to make this happen. And it was just this recent, you know, three, four years ago. I mean that does, that does a good job for inspiration. And you get to actually talk to the people who help make this happen? That does a good deal of inspiring students to want to be active. And the more active you are as a student, the more likely you're going to stay in school, more likely we're going to graduate. So Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 14 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 we want this to just keep cycling through and keep building and keep building. Those are some of my thoughts as far as moving forward with the center. Ayana Ford: To backtrack on what you said, do you know, do you have any connection with the different leaders in this project and their contribution to the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: Oh, oh you want to hear some names? Ayana Ford: Yeah. Jake Northington: Oh, okay. Well, (Tiffaney Boyd) the ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) president and she was also, think she was president or vice president of BSU (Black Student Union) at one point. So she's definitely--I mean, if it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have the center. Like we have some major names and, and, so her. Jamaéla Johnson, she was also an officer, maybe vice president or president of the BSU at a point. They all kind of, you know, took turns being the president. Everybody was the president at different times. And she was also at ASI. Then we have Akilah Green who was (unclear) one point. And she was also an ASI. So you had these three Black women at ASI during all of--they did most of the legwork, as far as the paperwork, the resolution, the promotion of it, bringing this information to the BSU, letting us know what's going on, the ins and outs of all of the meetings. Because I, you know, me as a student and other students, we could go to some meetings, but we were not going all of the meetings. You know? So as an ASI member, they were there for like every meeting and they had other meetings with administration and stuff like that. That we were not going to. So they would say, Wait this is the process, this is what's happening. Now. This is what's happening. Now, this is what the student body can do. This, this, this, and this. And then they also established partnerships with other people outside of the Black community on campus that helps support this resolution. So, without those three we wouldn't have this space. I hope their picture goes up in the center. That's one of the things I pushed for from day one, day one when the center opened and I hope this eventually happens: their picture and their name should go up as far as these are the most significant people, Black students (in the process of getting the Center), they should be mentioned. Ayana Ford: Speaking of programs, by the way, you had mentioned earlier, have you been involved in making any programs specifically? Jake Northington: Yeah, I was more events. More events. Some of the programming has been more collaborative. It wasn't just a simple thing. And most of the programs are mimicking other programs, because these are programs that need to exist in all of the centers. So like a mentorship program, we made one for us. Or the tutoring program. Again, that's something that's needed everywhere. Or you know, we--some of the ideas I came up with was, Hey, we need somebody to come speak about this. We need somebody to come speak about this. We need somebody to speak about this. So things we couldn't get people to speak about, like maybe historical context things, or certain things as far as how, how we're affected by different weather patterns, anything, whatever you want to think of. Art, Black art, or Black music, any not really a specific major for somebody to speak about, maybe not. I started to create PowerPoint presentations and create classes and go do the research myself. And then I would give some of these classes in the Black Student Center to different faculty and staff and students. And different people would Transcription by Ernest 15 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 come in and I would give the class right here on the big screen in the center. And you know, that was something I was able to do, so I did quite a few of those. So as an individual, I did some of those things, but everything else was pretty much a collaborative work. So Black Panthers, of the Black Panther Party. People that still kind of live in the San Diego region that maybe worked in Oakland or worked in the San Diego, L.A. region, when they were teenagers operating in the Black Panther Party, those people came to speak. Creating events such as Black Women's Appreciation. So that was, that was another event that I had a lot of hand into. I was like, We should do this. Like we should appreciate all the Black faculty and staff. So we need to make an event for Black faculty and staff, and then for the women, and kind of gave out and created our own letters of recommendation or a letter of appreciation that was handed out to all of the people. And then, and of course I was there taking pictures. So it was more about all of us sitting together at the table and kind of tossing out ideas. Everybody kind of played a different hand in that. And then the ideas that made sense, we got together and move forward. Ideas that maybe didn't make so much sense, we kind of held it on for later. So that's kind of the process of how that worked. Ayana Ford: You also mentioned taking photographs at the events and such. So how do you think that impacted the people around at the Black Student Center? Seeing themselves? Jake Northington: That's, again, that's such a great impact because as of right now, there's a huge picture in the center right now covering one of the walls. And it's a picture I took of one of the Black students that graduated. And it's just--it may be the biggest impact. Because as we know, just visibility, you know, positive promotion and propaganda of Black students, when you go on that website for any (unclear) that pop up, almost are never Black. You know, when you walk through the halls and you see the pictures on the walls, they're just, you may not ever see a Black person. When you just walk around campus, it just may never happen. So, you don't feel as invested or as included in your own campus. So to see yourself in these photos, to see yourself on the wall, it just really emboldens people to want to be here, to love the choice that they made for being at that school. And it just helps them enjoy school a lot more. I saw so many eyes light up or when I would take pictures at the event, I would make a slideshow and then it would be up on the screen, just rotating all day. When people walked in, they would eat lunch or hang out or do a little homework or whatever they did, and it would just rotate. And then on the regular, right after the event, two or three days later, everybody's in the center, like, Where's the photo, where's the photos? And then they're looking through and everybody's pointing and laughing and go, Oh, remember this, remember this? It just keeps adding to the enjoyment and experience of just being there and being on the campus. I mean, I really love (unclear). I think it just, it just, it helps in a way that you can't even measure. So to have pictures of yourself, enjoying college with other Black students here, it's immeasurable. Ayana Ford: Are there any other questions I should have asked that I did not? Jake Northington: (laughs) Let me see. Maybe, I don't know. What are we doing now? Are we actively doing the things to continue with the mission statement? Has the mission statement changed? Are we, are we on the mission right now? Do we have a new mission now, now that it's been three-plus years? Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 16 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 Ayana Ford: Hmm. So what do you think? What's the new mission-Jake Northington: Or something like that. Ayana Ford: So what do you think-Jake Northington: I think the same mission. Yeah. I think the same mission should continue. And I think there is a new mission though. So a new mission would be to get more Black people hired as staff and faculty on campus. Being a student there over the years, a lot of the Black students that graduated, they're gone, that's it. You don't see them again. We don't get a lot of Black students hired now back into the campus. But I do see this from other groups. And then I see this across all other campuses and colleges, universities. We need to get a push for our Black graduates to be rehired back into their alma mater of CSU San Marcos. I think that needs to happen. The school is getting bigger. So since I left, they built a couple more dorms. They built like the dining facility. They built quite a few more; the Extended Learning Building, think they're going to build another parking structure. So as these things continue to increase so should our Black faculty and staff and student population. I'd like to see a push to get the campus more involved in making those things happen, because that shouldn't be a job just put on us. The campus should be involved in the recruitment of Black students and the hiring of more Black faculty and staff. We don't need to be an exchange situation where, okay, we lost three Black faculty members. We're going to go hire two. It shouldn't be happening like that. We should be expansively growing as--as while the campus is growing. So that definitely needs to happen. And I’d like to see a lot more support from the campus, as far as the other students go, and other faculty. Black Student Center events–we should be able to look around and see a sea of people that are not Black. We should see the support of everybody who professes to support all students. Then you can reflect your support by showing up. So we have a few people from the Dean of Students, we got a few people from the other centers that have been consistently supporting the Black Student Center the whole time, but we don't see a grand amount. We don't see large amounts. To have 17,000 plus people on campus, we should see some of that when there was a Black Student Center event, just like it is when there's an event for another center or event for another space or event for somewhere else. That same support of showing up. I'd like to see that happen moving forward. And that should be a point of emphasis because that's only going to keep growing us even at a higher rate. Ayana Ford: So how do you think that the campus can reach out some more? You had mentioned before through middle schools and high schools. So you have any other ideas of how they can reach out more to Black students? Jake Northington: Yes. The Office of Communications could do a (technical difficulties). I think that has changed now. When I was there, I didn't see it, see it as much, but I still get the emails. I see it a little bit more right now, so that's good. And they can keep pushing the events. As the Black Student Center or the Black Student Union, or other Black clubs and organizations that are putting on events, the Office of Communications can do a great job with supporting those events by promoting them on all the digital signages and all the flyers. ASI could do a better job of supporting, the USU could do a better job. So just support us by promoting our events when we put them out there. Great help. Instead, Black students having to go person to person to try to get somebody to show up to the Black Student Center events. And that's a struggle that not every other group has specifically. Some people may, some people may not, but that really hinders the Transcription by Ernest 17 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 Black Student Center’s effect--as far as it could have a greater effect if we got more people. Everybody has to help us with that. That's not a burden that should just be put on the Black students. And also we need to work on lowering that, those parking passes (Ford and Northington laugh). That’s always a fight. Ayana Ford: It really is. So over the years, you've seen over the years have you seen a giant shift the way Black students are seen on San Marcos campus, through the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: I wouldn't say giant shift. I can't really speak to that because everything that we were facing on the campus, we pretty much still face. So I don't know if I can answer that question. I've been away from the campus for like over a year now. I can’t really answer that. But while I was there, it was the same wall in front of us the whole time I was there. So once I left, I don't know how much that has changed. So the, like the comfort level of people, the hesitance to help or support, or the hesitation to be around us as much. And I can't speak to how much that's changed. I know some people in some areas have gotten a little more comfortable, but as an overall campus, I don't know about that. I dunno. I have though--I mean, the new president seems like she's doing a good job and it seems like it's on track for that to happen, so I would say I would put it that way. It seems like they're on the track, on the right track. Ayana Ford: (technical difficulties, interview stopped recording) So, do you, are you able to see the record button now? Jake Northington: Nope. But if you’re-Ayana Ford: It's saying recording on my side. Do you see? Jake Northington: This recording? I hope you get-Ayana Ford: Okay. It says it's back to recording. Did the box come up for you? Jake Northington: Nope. Ayana Ford: Okay. It's recording. So I want to go back a bit on your photography, on how you talked about taking photos for the Black Student Center. So you had mentioned that you had books in the Black Student Center. Jake Northington: Yes. Yes. Ayana Ford: So what was then, so what were the books in the Black Student Center? Jake Northington: I'm glad you asked that, I've got them right here, since we're talking about it. I didn't, I didn't think we were going to talk about it, but since we gonna talk about it and let's talk about it. So, again, this is a study I did through the Black Student Center for one of my classes. So I took an independent study in my photography class, and I wanted to do similar to like a yearbook, but for Black students on campus. So for the years to come, people would always remember these times and that this happened and that this was around because we don't have a concerted effort of: here are the archives of photos of Black people on this campus. So since that doesn't exist, I was like, I'm going to start it. So the idea was every year to go around and capture Transcription by Ernest 18 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 some very good photos, as much as I could, of just different Black people on campus and around campus. And then I put a focus to it. Because I want it to add a social aspect to it. I wanted to make a corrective measure. It's an attempt to make a correction of a social issue. So, and then all the books go together. They create one sentence. So the titles of every book create one sentence. So this is the first book. (Northington holds up a book to the camera, soon starts flipping through its pages) It's called Hueman and it's spelled H-U-E meaning like, the hue or the tone or the skin color. I can show you a few pictures throughout the book. And I created these books to kind of change how people saw Black students on campus. And this was specific to the Black men. So, walking around campus, a lot of (Black men) are considered, you know, something negative. People love to use that same stereotypical word as thug or criminal, and, and we need to detach those verbs and those negative nouns to black men. So the idea for this book was, Hey, be yourself, be who you are, be what you are, and just sit here and give me a natural calm, solemn look. And we want to capture that. And I wanted to also show the campus. So a part of this was to show that the entire campus too. So we want to walk around and show the campus different areas of the campus, all different. And these Black men have a different mixture of ethnic backgrounds. And then we just wanted to go around and get a little bit of everybody. And when they saw this book, (laughter) I mean, people lost their minds. It's like, Oh, wow. Oh, wow. This is amazing. This is this. And that's the best part of it for me. How well people received the book was the best part to me. So I went to add a positive adverb. So when you saw this Black face of a Black man and you attach it to that adverb, this is kind of how propaganda works. So propaganda, it can be positive or negative. When you see a news article or a magazine and they put a picture and words, you combine that together and you get a thought in your head and they could kind of help curb some stereotypes that people have of Black men. So this one says philosophical. So I want you to be able to see this face and know that this person is philosophical. And let's add that together. And I actually know most of the people in his book. So this guy was--he worked in the art building and you know, that wouldn't come across if people just use the stereotypes. And then this is a Polaroid picture of me in the center, one of the first semesters working there. And in the book, I would put the thank yous and then I would translate it into an African language, so it also becomes a teaching tool. So this book is translated into Bantu and Bantu is spoken in South Africa by the Xhosa tribe, in Cape town, South Africa. So, and then this was completed in 2017, the first year of the center, so that's book one. Well, man, I had to keep it going. I had to keep it going. I didn't think I was going to keep it going, but everybody loved the book so much. It's like, All right, let me keep it going. (Northington holds up another book) So then this is the women's book, and this is actually the photo that's up in the center right now. So the big photo, it is on the wall in a Black Student Center. And this is, I love this photo. So, Janeice Young that's who that is, Janeice Young. I think she graduated in 2018? Yeah. Janeice Young. She worked in the-- So then I'll put a little bit, a little poem here. That's only my words that I wrote. And then this book is for Black women specifically. So I wanted to promote Black women being who they are, being them natural selves, loving school with them smiling and enjoying life because I wanted to get rid of, or aleve them in some out of the stereotype of being an angry Black woman. Of being loud or being obnoxious. So we're--we want to get away from those types of stereotypes and that type of negative casting. So then, just went around and taking all of these good photos. And I mean, they took a while. Some of these opportunities were like, I would have to take seventy or eighty photos to--and then pick out the one really good one that I liked. And I was able to enter some of Transcription by Ernest 19 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 these in art competitions, which went pretty well. That photo is actually taken in the center early on center. The center looks a lot different. So, you know, that's one of the archival pieces anymore, its a lot different. So now these people have all different majors, again, all different mixtures. Some of these people are from different countries around the planet. And I wanted--to kind of this be like a promotional tool as well. So I started to bring these to the orientations as well and show other students; “Look, look, you can be in the next book.” And it really inspired a lot of students. And that's the SBSB (Social and Behavioral Sciences) building. So I just got all positive reviews; everybody that was in the book, everybody that saw the book, everybody just keeps saying positive things about it. So I think it was a good idea. It ended up being a great idea. And some of these people worked in the center before, like both of them. So I think she's graduating right now. She worked in the center. And then this is more archival footage. There's-the Extended Learning Building is now back here, and another dorm building that didn’t exist then. And then this is one of the dramas--and this is one of the feeder campuses MiraCosta. So it's a community college that feeds into this school. And then this was taken inside of the USU (University Student Union). So it was right in front of the campus. I love it. I love it. And then again, the teaching tool in this book, this was translated into Somali and it's spoken in Yemen, Djibouti, Somalia, Kenya. And then I also get to get a little help from some of the students who are from African countries, and they help translate. So it's a whole group effort. And then, that book is called “Solar Amalgamations.” And this is the third and final book (Northington holds up a third book). This is the one I most recently completed before I left campus. And this book is called “We Are,” so the focus of this book was to show us together. So first we had the book about the men and changing the negative images in the book and the book about women and changing a negative stereotype. And then now I want to bring these people together and show men and women together, you know, enjoying a campus, the campus life, something that we rarely get to see Black students doing. You may see some Black students in diversity photos, or something like that, students together and some of these photos. So again, I put some nice little positive words and a little bit of a poem. And then that's the front steps of the campus and you just got students walking around and much of this looks like a commercial. It looks just like a, you know, a little magazine article or something like that. And that's the feel I wanted to give off. I wanted people to be able to look through here and just see, hey, just regular students. This is Keenan. He plays a guitar all the time. And my man, Sam, he's a skateboarder. So we get to see a lot of these things. So ideally enjoying campus together and that's and that's a really good photo. So I'm sure they're going to look back on this ten, fifteen, twenty years from now and remember that day and what they were laughing about. So, that's the point. I mean, I love it. You might recognize some of these people, maybe, maybe not. That was the point of this book and, let's get to the end. Oh, there go--my favorite two people right there, Ms. Marilyn (McWilliams), Ms. Ariel (Stevenson). You will be interviewing them soon. Shamar. And then some of these students now work in the Black Student Center. It's just a whole, well, just circle to circle. Kiki, Taj – he worked in the center for a while. So we got a little bit of everybody. And then and at the end of each book, I always put a photo of myself too, just to, you know, who the artist was. And this is actually a photo with two photos from the previous book that's in the art show at the campus. They had an art show on campus and they asked me to put my stuff in the art show. So I submitted it and they got picked for some of the final pieces. A lot of students submitted and then mine got picked. And so it was just a good reflection to show it in the book, actually a photo from the art show. And then this Transcription by Ernest 20 2024-05-16 Cisneros and Sean Visintainer �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 one was translated into Swahili. Swahili is spoken in Tanzania, Congo and Kenya as well, or Rwanda and other places. So, and just show us there holding hands. And then all the--all three books, the sentence that it completes is: “We are human solar amalgamations.” So those are the three titles. “We are,” “Hueman,” and “Solar Amalgamations.” And that pretty much loosely means, “We are stars.” That's what that means. And then that completes one project. And now I'm going to move on to work on a different project for Black people. Ayana Ford: So by keeping these archives, would you say that--how would you say that it impacted, the art, I mean, the environment of the Black Student Center? Because you can go back and look at the history, how do you think that impacted students? Jake Northington: I think it makes students really feel good about who they are and what they are. It just makes us feel good. It's like, Okay, I can do this too! And then it was just done last year or the year before, or just, there's been a history of Black people before me that came here as a freshmen or sophomore, and they made these things happen. I can also do it. These people got involved and you start to see some of the same faces. Oh, she was also the president here. She was also the vice president here. She was also in the Academic Senate. She did this, this, this, and this. She graduated; she got these awards. If she can do it, So can I. If he can do it, so can I. So to continue to see people that look like you do these things at the same school, again, it's only as inspiration. And it helps a lot of our students coming in to even give more effort, to be involved, to be around, to start to do some of the work themselves and to--and now we can kind of pull some of these people in to get into doing things as such as going to graduate school, or now they might be more apt to accepting help in the areas that they need help in, because that becomes a hurdle. A lot of students don't want to ask for help because they don't want to feel unintelligent. They don't want to ask for support because they don't want to feel like they're in poverty. And they don't want to feel judged. Well, that's a real thing. So if we can show a little more, if we can speak a little more about our experiences so we have--we get to show up as a graduate or as a senior and say, Hey, look, I had to stretch out a few dollars throughout the month. I had tough, tough times in this particular history class or that particular class. This is why I reached out for help. I went to the food pantry for this. I went to the tutoring lounge for this. I went to this for this. Now that allows a link in a chain to be made, to help Black students succeed more when that's the point: to keep them here and to graduate them and prepare them for life after the university. So I think just the pictures up, just having the photos add to that. Each thing we do on campus for the Black students and for Black Student Center all adds to the overall goal of keeping students there, recruiting students and graduating students, it all adds. And now building that Black alumni chapter. Now we take it even a step further. So every part of this process was necessary. Every single person that was involved was necessary, and I just think they all should be mentioned and named. And whether it has a big plaque made to put everybody's name on it, or we definitely need to get that Tiffany, Jamaéla, and Akila photo and plaque up in the center, you know, stuff like that before too many years, it'd be forgotten. You don't need these events or these situations to be forgotten. These people should be remembered. And everybody needs to know that this occurred. Because we have to think back: 1989 the school was established. There have been many Black people to come to this school since 1989. Well, since then many Black people have tried to make change on this campus. We may never Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 21 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 know their names. We may never know the change they was trying to create. We may never know about the five, eight, ten attempts to get a Black Student Center, but we can't let stuff like that continue. We need to reach back and try to find those stories and we need to establish something to move forward. That's what makes--we're so lucky that we got Gezai (Berhane) here because Gezai’s the first Black graduate, so we could kind of get some of those stories from then to now. And we can kind of connect the 30-year path of this campus and Black action on this campus. And we can connect those thirty years together and kind of tell that story and kind of add and add to it, add to that. I really love that about this project and I'm just so happy it was able to happen and that people want to be involved with this. Because this is going to affect the Black community forever on this campus. Ayana Ford: Yeah, absolutely agree. Well, that is all the questions I had. Do you have any more, anything else you would like to add? Jake Northington: Yeah. I’d like to thank Ms. Marilyn McWilliams and Ms. Ariel Stevenson, because I probably would not still have stayed on the campus, and I might've transferred, if it wasn’t for people like them. Because they add a good element of support that you may never get. You know, because when I got here, we didn't have a center. It's (hard) to find spaces to get some, you know, just to be able to go talk out ideas, to be able to go, just relax a bit, to get to step away from the campus while you're still on campus. So, I was able to go visit their office and just sit down and get some little, I guess they would call it counseling or mentorship or whatever people describe that as, but to be able to just sit down and just talk to them and be like, All right, this is what's going on campus right now. This is happening. This is happening. And they were able to give me (advice), Hey, you can go here to get that handled. You can talk to this. You can go to this meeting. You know, to have people to be able to point me in the right directions to get some of these things accomplished. If it wasn't for them, I wouldn't be able to walk into all these directions. And I probably wouldn’t have been as involved as I was. When they encourage all of the Black students--and those are two staff members that show up to everything that's been done by the Black Student Center and by the BSU. And they've all, they've consistently shown up, those two. Most of the Black students have probably seen them or spoken to them or even met with them quite a few times. So without them, it would be a totally different story, so (laughs) I can't leave anybody out. Ayana Ford: Well, thank you so much for allowing me to interview you for this project. And thank you so much. Jake Northington: Thank you! (interview concluded but then started again) Ayana Ford: So Mr. Northington what is your major? What was your major at (California State University) San Marcos. Jake Northington: So, I came to San Marcos in the spring 2016 and I graduated fall 2019. So my major was Visual and Performing Arts with an emphasis in art and technology. My first minor is Ethnic Studies. Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 22 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 Ayana Ford: So what got you into photography? Jake Northington: Just the class that was on my list. My intention was to do digital art and media. So that's the point of signing up for that program. But while in the program, one of the class options to take was a photography class to meet some of the requirements. So I took that class and I just liked it. And it seemed doable and it was not as hard as I thought photography was, at least not for me. I thought it was more difficult than what it was. So the teacher did a very good job at teaching us how to use any camera so you don't have to just get one and that's it. She kind of showed us how to use all cameras of all brands and how to manipulate the camera and, you know, just all the lighting techniques and everything we needed to use. And then in addition to that, CSU San Marcos has a great support system for all the areas of art. They have a music studio, they have an art studio, they have a dance studio and they have a recording studio within the library as well. Having all of those options, you're allowed to really practice your craft. I was able to go check out studio time in the library on the first floor in the library and continue to just take photos, take photos, do recordings and it allowed practice because I saw what I wanted things to look like in my head, but I couldn't physically do it yet with the camera. Just having this person as a teacher and then having those elements available on this campus, it allowed me to now get time to sharpen these things up and get my photos to the point where I wanted them to look like. And it really, I just--I was excited from the beginning because all I thought about was photographing Black people on campus. Like, I know we need this. This has to be. And then I had to go sell it, like, okay, who's gonna buy this? And I don't mean sell it as far as money. I mean, sell the idea of putting this up on campus. There were no photos up of Black people on campus when I showed up. So I was--and then you walk around another year, goes by. And then I saw one picture and this was a Black woman who was a track athlete on the campus. And then that's the only thing I saw. I'm like, We have to change that. My whole idea was: I got to learn how to use this so I could put out all of these things and I can show up to all these events and take the pictures, because everybody's just taking pictures on their phones or something like that. And it's not, you know, it's not enough. People just have personal photos on their phones. I'm like, No, I have to do this. So I actually went around and took pictures, for ASI, for all types of groups on campus, and I just kept getting practice, kept getting practice. By the time the center opened, I had a good year in. And then I was like, Okay, I think I can start to help. And then I started. Just kept doing it, kept doing it, the whole idea behind that first class was, I need to do promotion of Black people because I have to put these positive images of Black people out here. So, and it just, you know, some of the photos I ended up using for flyers, some of them, I ended up using for some of my PowerPoint presentations in different classes and it just continued to grow and continue to grow. And I still use a lot of them today and now everybody loves it. And then a lot of the students got free photos out of it. Because people like, “Oh, I want a photo shoot. I want a photo shoot.” So now I'll go do a little photo shoot, give them all the photos. And then we sit together and go, okay which, give me the top three that you like. And I'll pick between one of those three to go into the book. And that's how those things happen. So I let them help me decide which photos actually went into the book because this is going to promote you and show you. You want to show yourself how you want to show yourself. I love it. So that's what got me into photography. And then I later went on to just work professionally with a couple Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 23 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 of groups in San Diego for about four or five years. And it only stopped because you know, everything going on right now (referring to the COVID-19 pandemic). But, I just continued to do photography. Ayana Ford: Well, any, do you have anything else to add? Anything you can think of? Jake Northington: Well, I would say once we got the Black Student Center, it also opened up job opportunities for Black students that didn't exist before. So previously Black students were in competition with everybody else on campus to work everywhere for student workers. So--some people may have reservations about Black people or some people may believe in stereotypes. And any other reason that hinder Black students from having the same job opportunities on campus as other students. When we walk, you walk around and see all these USU (University Student Union) workers, see all of the people working in different departments. Again, you just don't see a lot of Black students. You don't see, you know, three, four or five of them and that's it. Well having a Black Student Center now opened up more job opportunities and now opened up spaces for Black students to come in and practice being a professional worker in the world, because maybe you push buggies for Ralphs (supermarket chain). Maybe you load the groceries at Walmart, but you haven't done a professional job in a professional setting. You haven't done report writing. You haven't put on events. So this now opens up an arena for Black people and Black students to kind of practice some of these jobs skills or even have a job opportunity on campus. That became a big thing that didn't exist before. So now over the years, Black students now have an area, Hey, I can apply here and I might have a good chance to get a job. And this might--you might have a better chance getting a job at the Black Student Center and then everywhere else on campus combined. So it opened that up. And then a lot of other students kind of what, that may be not have worked before, they wanted to work. And they could have been here freshman, sophomore year, didn't care to work, but then by junior year they were like, Oh, you know what? I want to work in the Black Student Center. They putting on all these amazing events. I want to be a part of that. I want to be a part of the creation. I want to build a part of this. Some students actually did that. And then some students came to the campus with the idea of working in the Black Student Center. Because you know, them and their parents were going over this like, Okay, you're going to stay on campus. You-this is going to be your major. This is going to be a class period. What are your opportunities for working? The center is now listed in the opportunities for on-campus jobs. So I think that was a great help as well. And it's still. Right now (the BSC) have served as a great help over the time, because look at how many Black students have worked in the center now over the years. All of those students would not have a job, at least not there. So now it'd be a little more difficult for them to work somewhere else without that opportunity. And these skills just go along with the rest of your life. Now, and I just think it built, it just builds a lot of love and comradery within the Black community on campus, which then in turn, turns into a lot more Black people walking around, feeling better about themselves, and maybe they have a better day or maybe their grades are a little bit better. Maybe they don't have as hard a time studying. And maybe they feel better just about walking around and being on campus. So these things really have a great effect. And the Black Student Center is just, that's the greatest place on campus. I would eat my meals in there when I was on campus. I'm getting my food, I'm coming to eat here. So people started doing that. People would normally go off campus and go to some fast-food restaurant and hang Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 24 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 out, eat, and then come back to campus. Not anymore. They go pick their food up and come back to eat it in the center to be around people and to talk and, you know, have a little fun and play a few games or something before they go back to class. So it just is building community. And that, again, that's another thing that just can't be measured. I hope it's here until the end the time. We should have the Black student center. And I'm trying to come back to the 25th anniversary, to the 70th anniversary. Lastly, I'm just ready for next year to have this (project of oral histories) presented. However its going to be presented by video or audio, however, is coming out, transcribed. However it comes out. I'm very excited for year five (of the BSC’s existence) and all of the people that has been a part of making it happen. And I just, I thank everybody, and I'm glad my idea came to fruition and we got a nice little grant to make this happen. This was great, it happened pretty fast too. I didn't yet thank the library for their help in making it happen. Ayana Ford: Thank you so much for allowing me to interview you today. Thank you. Jake: Alright. Alright. We good now? (interview concluded but then started again) Ayana Ford: So, do you know of the people who push for the Black Student Center specifically, like a couple of names and how it came to be? Jake Northington: Yeah. I mean, I can give you some names. I can't name everybody, but I recognize some of the people because they were there throughout the whole time, but again, some of the students were seniors already. So, you know, they did what they could and then graduated and were gone, and then some of the students were in and out and maybe not there all the time. But a few of the students are the--there was these two twins. They were the current BSU presidents during the time when we opened the space. And their names was Danni and Darnesha, I think the last name is Thornton. Also have Ashton, you have another guy, Louis Adamsel. You have, Marvin Cook who was later to BSU president. Like once the center officially opened, he was the BSU president. You have Renee White. You have a lot of women from a sorority that was there, so then we have, Darhra Williams; another one of the original workers in the center. Think it was originally five or six workers in the center. You have another name, Brandy Williams. Another lady; she went to a lot of ASI meetings to try to garner support and push for the reason for us to have the center. We have--oh, there's just so many people. That's about all I can think of right now, quickly off the top of my head. So there's others, there’s others, but those are some of the main people that I would see constantly. And then there’s staff members as well. So that was Black faculty and staff members as well, that assisted along the way, Dilcie Perez. Of course, Mrs. Marilyn (McWilliams), Ariel Stevenson., so we have a lot of staff members like that, that were assisting, (technical difficulties) so involved. Other than that, I mean, you have to go back and look at pictures and kind of pull up some more names. Because remember, this is years ago, you’re talking about 2016 when all of these things were happening pretty big, so its been a few years-Ayana Ford: And so what programs did you help create and you're involved in, in some form? Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 25 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 Jake Northington: Yes. So I came together with a guy, Louis Adamsel again, I came together with him and we kind of talked about having a brotherhood student organization. So there was nothing specific to Black men on the campus. Everything was just, you know, it was geared to other people or groups. But there was nothing geared towards Black men. We talked about it for a while and then we started it; he was the president. I was vice president. And the idea for that was to assist the Black men. And again, with tutoring, mentorship, help guiding them through being a student, help them out of trouble, help them with their classes, class selection, and just help them in life skills that they maybe didn't get from growing up in whatever area they're coming from. And if they did get it, it just helped them with some confidence, kind of put them in positions to where they could speak more or be seen more, and just any type of support that they needed. And that was kind of about the things we go through individually and how we could collectively change those things. And this is--and some of those guys ended up in the book (Hueman), so it's three or four of those guys went in the book, from the brotherhood. And we started that in 2017 and this was--these are one of the things that has now attached to the center as a program. And now it's called the Brotherhood Alliance. So now they're continuing it. And that was the point, you know, because the student organization does as well or as bad as the group of students that are there. Yeah. And then you get stretched thin trying to continue an organization if the organization is not very big, so something that important needed to continue. So I presented this to John Rawlins (III, previous director of the Black Student Center) and he liked the idea, he wanted to continue it. So, and then they call it the Brotherhood Alliance and they still even meet right now. And I go to some of the meetings now and they just continue it. And they have another group, a group of guys that are the president and vice-president. So he (Rawlins III) got another group of guys that's keeping it going and, and they're active on campus and hey, I love it. I'm glad it's--I'm glad it's moving. Another organization that I got started was the Black Sistahood. So we had a Black Brotherhood, Black Sistahood. So we want to have them both. You don't just, you know, I'm not into just one side of the coin. We have to help both sides because there are particular things that we go through, you know, that needs to be addressed. Well, I couldn't be in the president of the Black Sistahood, you know, I don't think that should be led by me. So I continued to pick different women on campus that I thought would fit the bill. And I wasn't getting a lot of a response back. So it took a while to kind of find somebody that wanted to take the mantle of that. But in the meantime, it was like the Black Brotherhood and Black Sistahood was housed within the Black Brotherhood. So we would still help everybody. We would still help and support the different Black women on campus, but we were not going to lead a conversation or lead a program specifically for Black women. So it was just kind of housed within the Black brotherhood. And then we would do it in a different way and we would go support the Black women, the Black womens’ sorority events and things like that. So once I finally ran into a person, Sunni Bates, she was very excited about this and she wanted to be the leader of it. And I was like, Okay, here we go! Now we got somebody that wants to lead that. So she became the president and then I didn't want to hold any type of position because that's for them, specifically. So then we went out and recruited different members and we got a bunch of ladies together who were not active in any other groups and it was like, Okay, here's another, here's another club to push Black people--help Black people to push themselves out of the idea of this is all we have and that's all it is, anything Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 26 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 outside of that is wrong. And I think some people on different campuses really feel like you should only have a BSU. Anything outside of that is challenging the BSU. Well I didn't stand for that. I was like, We have to change that idea. I draw. We need to have a Black art club. These people love movies. We need a Black movie club. So these are the things we pushed around. We started to have Black movie nights. Then we have you know, a night for this, a night for that. They started a dance group. Some ladies had a dance club that they started and there's even a new dance club right now. So just to keep pushing the idea, we can have more, we can have fifteen or twenty Black student clubs. So this gives a vast array of things for Black students to be active in. When you only give them one or two, that doesn't do enough. We're all different. We all got different likes and wants and needs. So we need to spread it out, that's the other part of having a Black Brotherhood or Black Sistahood. So--and then I just operated in both of those. And again, I'm on my way out. Then John, John Rawlins was like, Hey, is this something we could kinda take on from y'all because both of y'all are going to be leaving. So I spoke with him (Rawlins III), Sunni spoke with him, and then now they have—I think they call it the Circle of Sisters. I think that's what it's called, something like that, or something close to that. So now they have that with the Brotherhood Alliance, and these are now programs housed in the Black Student Center. That didn't happen before. So now offering multiple clubs. And then now they're housed in the center versus if a few active students leave, these things may get thin or spread apart or go away, and we don't need those things to happen. So we need things that are constant and constant, and that are continually going to help the students and support the students. So I was really happy to see that happen. And then, you know, now you don't have to put that burden on a new student, showing up to try to collect the Black brothers together, collect the Black sisters together. You don't have to put that burden on them. Now they have a vehicle to operate out of, it just gives more help to a need. So then through all of these different clubs and organizations--remember, I'm an art student--so I'm not only taking pictures, I'm doing sculptures. I did a couple of sculpture things that I did for ASI and, and that I did for the Women's Center. And then the Women's Center over at the time changed their name to the Gender Equity Center, but it was the Women's Center when I got there. And then so I did this sculpture piece in collaboration with them and with ASI around saving straws. So the straw campaign happened during I was, while I was at the school. And they wanted to stop the use of as much plastics and put it together to create a sea animal, which was a sea turtle to show: look at how this affects the marine and aquatic life. And we used that to kind of help push sustainability and to end the uses of straws on campus and all these other things. So, I was able to use my artwork and all these dynamic ways, and then now I started to design logos and shirts for clubs and organizations outside of the Black Student Center and in a Black Student Union. And then that just led to so many more opportunities. I began to photograph events for the diversity office (Office of Inclusive Excellence), for ASI, clubs and just different things. And then at the end it was time for me to make my own. I've done so much for so many other people. And then just so many people, I just got so much good feedback from a lot of the t-shirts and stuff that I made. And a lot of the designs I was like, I guess it's time for me to make my own, I'm on my way out of here so I'm just going to start making some of my own stuff. So then I started making Brotherhood and Sistahood t-shirts and hoodies and sweaters and all jackets, Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 27 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 different things like that. And I'll just keep testing out things, keep redesigning things. That's a lot of the stuff I did in my last semester. And then that ended up with their own t-shirt line. And now I make my own stuff, so I love it (Northington holds up the hoody he is wearing). And some of these things have now been sold to different colleges and universities. They contact me and I, you know, I have my own LLC, my own business. And I work with other Black student centers and diversity departments, and they buy stuff in bulk to give out to Black students across the San Diego and LA County. And so those ideas and all of that work that I was able to do, and things I was able to be a part of, and working with the different groups, and just creating and sparking new ideas led to this; I use this to help pay for graduate school as well. So it's a nice full circle of work. Ayana Ford: Yeah. And then you still came back to San Marcos to help us with this project. Jake Northington: (laughter) Well, they haven’t let me go. So, I've done a few projects even after graduating. Once I graduated, I still did about four or five other projects post-graduation. Ayana Ford: So like, for example, for this Black student Center project, what was your direct role in getting this made? Jake Northington: Well my direct role was it was my idea to begin with, and I don't know if anybody’d thought of this before. Maybe they did, but it--and they weren't able to make it happen. And it took the right people. So like Sean Visintainer (Head of Special Collections, University Library), like John Rawlins (III, Director of the Black Student Center), it, you know, it took the right people. So the right people were here at the same time. And once the ideas got around, they were interested. Sean was interested. John was interested when I gave the idea to him. So then they started to spread out and build the team that we needed. We got a team of like five people. And with that team now, it's like, All right, let's get through the planning stage. So we spent six, eight months planning through the summer, through the winter to get through the planning stage. And then now reach out to hire students, point out all different people we needed to be involved as far as telling stories like this. And just to watch it all happen is it's just, I guess that might be more satisfying, I get to actually watch my idea happen like that. And I just hope everybody really can get something out of this, or at least get close to what I'm getting out of it. Because it's, I mean--to be a student that operates on campus and you're trying to be active and you're trying to make changes for your community? And then to see something like that happen when I knew it took years to get the Black Student Center! Years to even crack the door open. But then now this situation happened within a matter of a year, year and a half. And I'm like, Oh, this is, you know, this is great! And people are more apt to help and support--the email went out about, Hey, we're looking for students to be a part of this project and to do interviews and this, this, this, and then to start getting feedback like that, you know, I don't know if this could have happened in the same manner eight years ago, seventeen years ago. You know, the campus climate, the activities were a little different, so it just the right time and the right people. And we're able to pull this off. I mean this definitely on my resume (laughs). So it was one of the highlights on my resume to even have my name attached to this. So it--say after that, this is definitely up there. I think my, I like my books a little more, but, but this is up there. Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 28 2024-05-16 �JAKE NORTHINGTON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2021-04-06 Ayana Ford: Well I’m glad you’re able to be a part of it. Jake Northington: Yeah. Ayana Ford: Thank you. Transcription by Ernest Cisneros and Sean Visintainer 29 2024-05-16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Northington, Jake. Interview transcript, April 6, 2021. Description An account of the resource Jake Northington is a California State University San Marcos alumni. He graduated with his degree in Photography in 2019. Jake worked in the Black Student Center and created photography that hangs in the Center. In this interview, Jake discusses his childhood growing up in East St. Louis, Illinois, how and when he came to CSUSM in 2016, and his involvement with the creation of the Black Student Center. This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jake Northington Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Ernest Cisneros Sean Visintainer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-26 Subject The topic of the resource Artists, Black California State University San Marcos. Black Student Center California State University San Marcos -- Students Portrait photography Student success Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant East Saint Louis (Ill.) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Jake Northington License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context NorthingtonJake_FordAyana_2021-04-19_transcript Activists and activism Art and artists Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project CSUSM history Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ayana Ford Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jamaéla Johnson OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JohnsonJamaela_FordAyana_2021-04-30_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. CSUSM Alumni;Black Student Center;Black Alumni;Black Hair Movement;, Black Lives Matter;Historically Black Colleges and Universities OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Johnson, Jamaéla. Interview April 30th, 2021. SC027-06 01:27:19 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible in collaboration with the Black Student Center and with generous funding from the Instructionally Related Activities fund. csusm CSUSM Alumni ; Black Student Center ; Black Alumni ; Black Hair Movement ; , Black Lives Matter ; Historically Black Colleges and Universities Jamaéla Johnson Ayana Ford moving image JohnsonJamaela_FordAyana_2021-04-30_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d1cb5006f34388220bea424317dbad95.mp4 Other video 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Jamaéla Johnson, April 30th, 2021, by Ayana Ford, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 41 Childhood Johnson briefly discusses her childhood in southeastern region of San Diego and her appreciation for growing up with people who look like her. southeastern San Diego ; only child ; culturally dense 0 [""] 128 Discovering an understanding of Blackness Johnson speaks about how her experience in school including her first teachers of color contributed to her belief that she was capable of excelling in education. values ; gifted and talented education ; GATE ; academics ; teachers of color ; potential 0 ["[\"\"]"] 284 Learning about Black history and the Black experience in childhood and adolescence Johnson talks about her exposure to Black history in school, which was superficial at first but became deeper as she as she got into high school and joined the Black Coal and Rose Society. Black history ; Rosa Parks ; Malcom X ; Black Coal and Rose Society ; Black History Month ; Garrett Morgan ; Ida B. Wells ; Civil Rights Movement ; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 493 Personal impact of Black activism and social justice movements Johnson reflects on how the Civil Rights Movement, Black feminism, and the natural hair movement played an important part in her identity development. Civil Rights Movement ; natural hair movement ; Black feminism ; Women's Center, Gender Equity Center, Historically Black Colleges and Universities ; HBCUs 0 ["[\"\"]"] 1314 Impact of the Black Lives Matter movement Johnson discusses her early recollections of the Black Lives Matter movement, with the death of Trayvon Martin. She talks about the impact of police brutality and her identity formation around being a Black student in a predominantly white institution. Black Lives Matter ; Trayvon Martin trial ; police brutality ; predominantly white institution 0 [""] 1590 Johnson’s role in the establishment of the Black Student Center Johnson speaks about her role as Vice President of Student University Affairs for Associate Students Incorporated (ASI) and how this role afforded her the ability to listen to students needs and understand their desires for a Black Student Center. She was able to then convey this information to the campus administration. During this time, she was also a member of the first all-women of color executive team for ASI. Black Student Center ; Associated Students Incorporated ; diversity and inclusion ; student advocacy ; Tiffaney Boyd ; Bianca Garcia ; Black African American fraternities and sororities ; leadership ; women of color 0 [""] 2080 Vision of the students and faculty for the Black Student Center Johnson discusses the top three priorities for a Black Student Center: community, mentorship, and scholarship. community ; mentorship ; scholarship ; vision ; Black Student Center 0 [""] 2289 University Administration’s vision for the Black Student Center Johnson speaks about two administrative priorities for the Black Student Center: acknowledging student voices and creating a vehicle for student success of some of CSUSM’s most vulnerable populations. She also discusses other campus centers that could be used as a blueprint for the Black Student Center. student success ; resolution ; blueprint ; Women's Center ; Gender Equity Center ; LGBTQ Pride Center ; California Indian Culture and Sovereignty Center ; Latinx Center 0 [""] 2452 Opposition to the creation of the Black Student Center Johnson reflects on the opposing viewpoints and tensions preceding the approval of the Black Student Center. During this time, ASI passed a resolution in favor of creating a Black Student Center but not without opposing viewpoints being shared. A list of demands was also created and sent to University administration. Black Student Center ; resistance to change ; finances ; Compton Cookout ; Black Lives Matter ; Black Power movement ; Black Student Union ; demands ; resolution ; opposing views ; task force ; Associated Students Incorporated ; heightened police presence 0 [""] 3334 The process of opening the Black Student Center Johnson discusses the lead up to the opening of the Black Student Center, including the development of a task force, budget approval, and allocated physical space. task force ; budget ; Black Student Center ; University Student Union ; physical space ; renovation 0 [""] 3561 The Black Student Center Grand Opening Johnson reflects on the grand opening of the Center, her transition from student to staff, and sitting in on the first Black Student Center director search. grand opening ; rewarding ; transition to staff ; Akilah Green ; Tiffaney Boyd ; director 0 [""] 3676 Leaders on the Black Student Center project, their contributions, and unsung heroes Johnson lists organizations and people who were instrumental in the development of the Black Student Center and reflects on the connections she made through the process. Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán ; MEChA ; Kai Guzman ; Dr. Sharon Elise ; Geoffrey Gilmore ; Dr. Dang Chonwerawong ; Akilah Green ; Tiffaney Boyd ; Bianca Garcia ; Louis Adamsel ; Jake Northington ; Daniel Fare ; Dr. Lorena Checa ; President Karen Haynes ; graduation ; connections 0 [""] 4033 Early focus of the Black Student Center’s initiatives, programming, events Johnson lists some of the early initiatives of the Black Student Center including collaborations to bring in prominent Black speakers and connections with local community colleges. University Hour ; Unity Hour ; community building, community colleges ; Miracosta College ; Tulsa Race Riots ; Black Wall Street ; Dr. Cornell West ; Black Faculty and Staff Association ; collaboration ; Black Panther Party ; women’s appreciation 0 [""] 4479 Insight on the main purpose of establishing the Black Student Center and its role as students return to campus post-Covid Johnson discusses how the main purpose of the Black Student Center is to have a space for Black students, faculty, and staff to be able to meet and fellowship with one another. This will be even more important as people return to campus post-Covid closure. fellowship ; Covid ; return to campus ; one-stop shop 0 [""] 4643 The Black Student Center's impact on the campus community Johnson talks about how the Black Student Center is bringing awareness to topics that affect Black people and exposing people within the campus community to specific topics and conversations. Black Student Center ; campus community ; natural hair ; Black Lives Matter ; policy ; community-based learning ; police brutality 0 [""] 4804 Personal impact of the Black Student Center on Johnson Johnson reflects on how the process and the development of the Black Student Center impacted her, leading her to believe in herself and in support of a village. She also talks about how she learned to never take no for an answer. support ; doubts ; fears ; potential ; persistence 0 [""] 4958 Future expectations of the Black Student Center Johnson shares what she would like to see for the Black Student Center in the future, including space expansion, increased funding for staffing, and additional partnerships. space expansion ; funding ; staffing ; recruitment ; Black Faculty and Staff Association ; partnerships ; Omega Psi Phi ; Sigma Gamma Rho 0 ["[\"\"]"] 5144 Johnson's final thoughts about the Black Student Center In conclusion, Johnson shares her hopes that the Black Student Center will continue to fulfill its purpose, expand, and endure over time. purpose ; endurance ; expansion ; future 0 [""] Oral history Jamaéla Johnson is an alumna of California State University San Marcos. While at CSUSM, she worked in various capacities on campus with the Gender Equity Center, the Black Student Union, and Associated Students Incorporated (ASI). Much of her work involved talking and working with fellow students regarding their shared needs around campus. In her interview, Johnson discusses her roles in advocating for the Black Student Center, as well as the journey towards the Center's opening. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:25.000 Today is Friday, April 30th, 2021 at 11:05 a.m. I am Ayana Ford, a student at CSU (California State University) San Marcos, and today I'm interviewing Jamaéla Johnson for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration with CSUSM Black Student Center and the CSU (San Marcos) University Library Special Collections. Thank you for being here. Is it okay if we start with talking with-- 00:00:25.000 --> 00:00:27.000 Thank you for having me. 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:33.000 Is it okay if we start by talking about your childhood, when and where were you born? 00:00:33.000 --> 00:01:51.000 Oh sure. You just said, when was I born? When and where? Okay. I was born on (redacted), which happens to be (redacted). In San Diego to my lovely parents, Joe and Shirley Johnson, and I was the only child. So, growing up in San Diego, specifically the southeastern region of San Diego, where it's primarily Black and Latino population was very, I would say culturally dense, and I appreciated being able to grow up around folks that look like me and even from just different cultures and backgrounds, where I was able to experience a lot that I feel influenced my childhood. 00:01:51.000 --> 00:02:07.000 So that actually brings me to my next question. So, it helps you culturally, so you were saying, it helped you to culturally grow up. So how specifically when it comes to like understanding of your culture and your Blackness, how did your childhood affect it? 00:02:07.000 --> 00:04:31.000 I think it definitely was beneficial to be within a community and be brought up in a school system that reflected the things that I valued as a person, as a Black woman or a Black girl at the time and being able to be in, there was a program when I was growing up in elementary school called the GATE program (gifted and talented education), and it was like the gifted and talented, like something and where you were on this, like special track, where you, I guess were grouped with other students that scored in the same standardized test range as you--We were afforded different opportunities and field trips and to help cope with, not cope, but to help pair with the things that we were learning in the classroom and so being in that program exposed me to students that look like me that were excelling essentially in school and academics, as well as being able to see and be with my first teachers of color, and I think that was very pivotal in establishing my foundation with growing, and the different school systems that I attended afterwards, with just knowing who I was and knowing and having, I guess, faith and belief in my potential as well as the capabilities that I had to excel in education. And so, I think that was very, just very critical and just super-duper important basically (laughs) to the, I feel like who I have developed as today. 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:43.000 Okay. So, were you taught a lot about Black history and the Black experience in your childhood particularly, like in your lessons, et cetera? 00:04:43.000 --> 00:07:53.000 In my childhood I would say that I was exposed to a good amount of Black history, but I think it was very, you know, like the kind of like superficial level or key coders within, like the Civil Rights Movement and things like that. So you have your, Dr. Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, a little bit of Malcolm X, and I think as growing up within, I would say high school going into college is when I got to learn a lot more about, like my people as African American history by taking like I remember in high school I was a part of a (word inaudible) called, Black Coal and Rose Society--shout out to Miss Shaunda--that we, during Black History Month, we were, we decided to participate in this like Black history presentation, and she challenged us to try to research Black African Americans, like individuals that we didn't already know, that weren't the people that were usually in conversations when talking about Black history. And so, with that, that's when I was able to dive a little deeper in my research on the internet and be exposed to folks like Garrett Morgan and Ida B. Wells and just dive in deeper to see that there were more people that contributed to this movement. And then from there being able to go to college and select my classes to be able to deliberately take like an African American history course or even just from the past but also like modern day history, as well, with folks that are continuing to contribute to this movement and us as a people. So that was, that was very exciting but I felt like I got kind of my foundation with having conversations with my parents and specifically my grandparents that told me about their experiences with growing up in the rural South in like Monticello and Selma, Arkansas, and their experience in cotton fields and on farms and things like that and then being able to build upon that once I was able to go to like high school and then in college. 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:57.000 Ok. So, how-- 00:07:57.000 --> 00:08:00.000 I hope I’m like – oh, sorry (laughing) 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:14.000 (laughing) You’re okay. How has the Black social justice and activism, such as Cvil Rights Movement, feminism, the natural hair movement, and the Black Lives Matter movement affected you? 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:24.000 Oh, that is a question. Let me make sure I have all the movements-- 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:26.000 We can go— 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:31.000 --that you listed. So, you said the natural hair, civil rights. 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:35.000 We can go one at a time if you want. So, we can start off with the Civil Rights Movement. 00:08:35.000 --> 00:10:24.000 Okay. Let's do the--okay. There we go. The Civil Rights Movement, gosh, I feel like that is such a pivotal point in our history, both being like African American, Black, as well as just American history. Just that I feel like Black African American folks went to, went through, in order to get like simple liberties that were afforded to them, and I think that was like, that influenced what I do today to be able to speak up, and if I feel like there is something that's not right like in my heart or even in my gut, to be able to stand on the shoulders of, to be, like to address it and feel confident about that when doing so because knowing about what folks went through, through the Civil Rights Movement with like, with voting rights and just being able to be people and be recognized as human beings, mind you, this is in like the 1950s and sixties, which is fairly recent. So, it's hard to not be able to look back in that particular movement because it was just like so, so, so close (laughs) for a lack of a better word, but yeah. 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:30.000 So, how about the feminism and the natural hair movement? How did those directly affect you? 00:10:30.000 --> 00:14:07.000 Feminism, especially Black feminism, plays such a major role in my identity development especially with coming to a, to San Marcos and not really being exposed to like the feminist movement or even knowing, having an idea about what that was. I never knew until I stepped foot on campus and, in particular, within the Women's Center at the time. So I began undergrad in 2011, yes, August of 2011, at Cal State San Marcos and, that my freshman year was when I decided to apply to the Women's Center that was on campus and so, fortunately, I guess I must’ve said something right because I was hired, I believe my title was like the Communications and Outreach Specialist and I just love, absolutely loved the environment that my supervisor at the time, her name was, (unclear) that she cultivated within the space, where it was so welcoming to folks that identified as women but also folks that didn't and wanted to also learn about the everyday struggles and theories within like feminism, and then she also opened the space for us as a staff to get connected with one another but also continue to strengthen our knowledge base and development as feminists within this space. And so, I felt like that was just so like crucial in my identity development and being able to recognize and bring on that identity within me so I really, I truly appreciate that opportunity as my first job ever was on campus at the, at Cal State San Marcos Women's Center, now Gender Equity Center, and being able to spend some of my most formative developmental years within that space. That I think led to just a lot of, I put it into words, but just being around folks that were just like-minded and were basically just like bad-ass feminists, like that's just what they were and being able to really back behind that movement and it was folks of all different shapes, colors, creeds, everything, men, women, transgender individuals, like you name it. 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:09.000 Mmm-hmm. 00:14:09.000 --> 00:21:42.000 Just being able to be a part of [unclear] and like, well, we can say, like, when I tell you it just exposed my whole mind, I'm like, We can talk about like sexual orientation and all this stuff? Like what? I cannot believe this. This is how I knew I was like in a total different world. But it was so freeing and just being in that space and Take Back the Night, like all these events that are probably--I don't know if they still do them now--but just all of these events about women empowerment and about embracing survivors and believing survivors and just about terminology with inclusive language and just all that stuff. I never looked guys in such a critical sense before being a part of the Women's Center, and I'm all like, Wow. Just like how, like, it's like the patriarchy is (unclear) in the language. I'm like, Oh my gosh. (laughs) So just coming from there and then just with the feminist and even Black feminism leading into the natural hair journey, I can remember this like it was yesterday, my God. So, being a part of the Women's Center, Gender Equity Center, for like my sophomore and junior year goes, and then, I believe, that’s when I started thinking about—no--that's when, during that same time I was also involved in the Black Student Union, and one of my good, good, good friends, her name is Akilah Green, she was the President of Blacks, of the Black Student Union, and I was the Vice President of Black Student Union, but Akilah was somebody that I always had looked up to. ‘Cause I remember like my first year on campus going to U-Hour (University Hour), and I see this bold, vibrant personality in the middle of the quad which is like in front of the library because we didn't have a student union at the time--in front of the library--and she is just like, has so much energy, she's like, that way and I'm like, Who is this person and how can I be her? Because she has this, all this energy, this liveliness and I was like, I want to be her friend. So, from that initial moment to us being a part of the Black Student Union and being a part of the leadership within the Black Student Union, we were able to kind of like mash our strengths together and say, Hey, like, this is happening in our community--we like, we always talked about Historically Black Colleges and Universities, which are HBCUs for short, and so I remember she was like, I'm going to a HBCU, I'm going to HBCU, and I remember I was like, What is a HBCU? At the time (unclear) like colleges or universities were, and I was like, what? And so, fortunately for me, she never transferred to an HBCU, which led us to like the leadership of the Black Student Union, and so, since we weren't able to go to those campuses as students, we’re like Well, let's bring some of that culture here to Cal State San Marcos. And so, I think that's when she developed the brainchild of having a natural hair show. So, I believe it was in 2015 or fourteen--it was either 2014 or fifteen. I think it was fifteen, though, when the Black Student Union had our first natural hair show and the first one I remember was a short presentation including two videos of, I remember it was like two controversial like hair-related things that happened in the news, where either somebody was getting like their hair cut, I don't know if it was their dreads or something else. It wasn't the wrestling one because that actually happened way after, but it was two controversial videos and then there was a presentation about where not loving your hair stemmed from to like modern day and then going into the natural hair movement and so hair show it was about that. The first half we had that and then we had a runway, where students and like staff, faculty, and community members can participate with being a model in the runway portion, which was like the second half and then I think at the end is when we had like a small little circle, where we were able to come together and talk about natural hair remedies, what type of products are good for certain hair textures and some things like--And we just had this heart-to-heart circle and so mind you, for the first natural hair show, it was maybe like fifteen people, maybe fifteen people, and it was all women at the time and where, I have attended like recently where it has just expanded so much, where there's been so many like different (student identity and inclusion) centers and stuff that have also took that on and being able to add to it and develop it from that. But, I'll never forget that that first initial natural hair show and the purpose behind it and the empowerment that I received from that, which planted the baby seed in my head like, I've got to cut my hair, so that didn't come ‘til like about (audio cuts out) to your chop, but I felt like that was definitely a very pivotal moment with attending that first natural hair show to be able to embrace my natural hair texture, to be able to gain the confidence enough to be on that journey and know that I wasn't by myself. So, if I did decide to do the big chop and what, and the things that come with that--both positive and negative--that I had a village around me. So, I feel like with those two movements in particular, the feminist movement combined with the natural hair movement, that helped me find my safe space, or my brave space, to be able to engage in both of those things. 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:52.000 Oh, wow. I'm so glad you're able to find that space. So, how did the Black Lives Matter movement affect you? 00:21:52.000 --> 00:26:24.000 Wow. The Black Lives Matter movement, my goodness. Gosh, just like the other things that I've mentioned I think it's like a compilation of everything, Civil Rights Movement, Black feminism, natural hair movement, Black Lives Matter. Like it's kinda’ like the (unclear) of all those things combined, and for, me with the Black Lives Matter, the first time I really heard about it, the movement was in 2012 and that was tensions around the Trayvon Martin trial, the what had happened, everything, so that's when I first started hearing about the Black Lives Matter movement. And then from 2012 to now it's still very relevant and very, I feel, necessary. Gosh, especially in the world that we're currently living in with police brutality and--not like that's been a recent development because police brutality has been around for centuries, like centuries, well before I even got here, honestly probably well before even founders of the Black Lives Matter movement was even alive. But for that to be something that is still, something that we're still fighting for and just to be recognized as human beings and for just having that movement to be able to like to reflect those thoughts and things. I think it's very important for folks that are growing up now, especially Black folks that are growing up now, to be able to have something to hold onto and I think that's what the Black Lives Matter movement represents is for folks that look like us to be able to grapple onto that and that's like a support system. But I think with the Black Lives Matter movement, it really influenced my, the way I looked at myself at a predominantly white institution as a Black student and being more conscious of who I was on campus and what community I identified with and so at the time, where the Black Lives Matter movement was gaining more traction within the media was when like--and then and allies and folks was like, Hey, like this is also affecting us as well. This is not just in Florida. This is not just in freaking Ferguson, Missouri. This is not just in these rural are, areas that are so far away from us, like this actually happens here in like our state, as well, and so from that movement is where I feel like Black students especially had to be on a kind of like a united front and realize that we need a community, we need a space, we need support on this campus and at the time the Black population--the Black student population at Cal State San Marcos--was like 3%. And I don't think much has changed since then, but we're like, We're a part of this 3%, and even though we're like a small percentage, we still want to be recognized, we still want our voices to be heard, and we need to be supported as such. 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:31.000 So, what role did you play in the establishment in the Black Student Center? 00:26:31.000 --> 00:34:22.000 What role did I play? Hmm. (laughs]) That is a good question. For me, I would say overall I feel like I played the role of the sound board for a lot of the students on campus. I say this because at the time before the establishment of the Black Student Center, I was a part of Associated Students Incorporated (ASI), which is the student governing body at Cal State San Marcos, and I remember my first position within student government was the student Rep At-Large for Diversity and Inclusion. I think that that was the title then. And I really, and I think I was the first person because they went into like this whole like title changing, role changing thing through ASI and it was the first time within that title was being available for students and so, I was able to run for that and got voted in that position and that position, in itself, I feel like helped catapult me in this whole student advocacy and policy kind of realm that I wasn't necessarily exposed to before. So, being able to serve in that position afforded me the opportunity to be able to serve on different university committees, where the only student representation might have been just me. And so, being able to be in those meetings with like vice presidents and associate vice presidents and deans and different staff on campus, to be able to be that student voice that is all through a diversity lens, that was just amazing. Both an amazing opportunity, an opportunity, but also a frustrating opportunity, as well, because just being sometimes the only student voice there and thinking that some of these conversations or some of these topics that I'm bringing up that, Of course, you all should know about this. I thought this was like common knowledge, but at the time and in those spaces, knowing that actually it wasn't common knowledge and being able to have patience but also the courage to actually say something within those meetings, in those spaces, too. So I think with that position kind of helped expose me to that--to those spaces—and from there, I was like, I really like being a part of these conversations, because I felt like I was being able to enact change through that, by bringing student voices to the table, but also bringing light to voices that are not necessarily always looked at or have been in the margins and being able to bring those voices as well to those settings. So that was such a great experience and that led me to staying a part of student government and then eventually running for the Vice President of University--Student and University Affairs--and so that was the year, I think that year was 2015-16, where myself, Tiffaney Boyd, and Bianca Garcia made up the first all-women of color exec team, and so that was what, like five years ago. Yeah. The first all-women of color exec team, us three. So, Tiffaney Boyd served as President and CEO of ASI. I served as the Vice President of Student University Affairs, and then Bianca Garcia served as the Executive Vice President. And so, within our roles, we were able I feel like to do things that we had set our minds to do at the beginning of our campaign, and I would say before even beginning my role as VP--the acronym is VP SUA--as VP SUA, I had already, I already knew what the conversations were on campus. I knew what students were talking about. I knew what students were passionate about, what they were yearning for. And I was like, I remember making a list--I think it was like maybe the summer before we started our term--of the top priorities, for me like myself, and for the students that I had conversations with was about having a Black Student Center on campus, a Black space, to be able to have Black African American fraternities and sororities on campus either--at the time it was like either/or--and then it was those, I think those are like the primarily two biggest things within that list and, being able to see both of those things come to fruition from like the very beginning until like the end of our term and graduating (unclear) things that are still on campus today, I think was extremely, extremely rewarding and as we mentioned I feel like all of those steps from like the beginning to, from like elementary school to like high school and then eventually to college, the people that I was able to meet it and so I would say at the time, I was VP student, VP SUA, but I would say like the role that I played with students that wanted this to be done and I felt like I tried to do everything within my power and within my role to be able to make that happen or at least have folks hear us out. 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:30.000 So, what do you think was the vision from the students and the faculty for the Black Student Center? 00:34:30.000 --> 00:37:47.000 The vision, I--let's see. I think the top three priorities that the students and faculty had for the Black Student Center was number one, a space to be able to develop community ; number two, the opportunity for mentorship, a space where students, faculty, and staff could come together ; and then also number three, I would just say that priority would, was scholarship. Community, mentorship, and then scholarship. Those were like the three main priorities that I remember hearing from students, staff, and faculty was to be able to have this space that could encompass all three. I remember having conversations with folks within the Black Faculty and Staff Association (BFSA), with faculty of color within various departments on campus, as well as Black and actually just students of color on campus to say that they wanted a space where they were given permission to be themselves. And I think that was something that before the Black Student Center, didn't exist on campus. There were different centers that played a role in trying to help and create and open that space for Black students, but I felt like there was just something missing, and so I think with the creation of the Black Student Center, it created that space for students, faculty, and staff and then being able with that space comes mentorship because there's this one focal point, where all these populations can come together. And then with like scholarship, to be able to have like this entity, this institutionalized entity, that can potentially fundraise and have, and be able to give out like scholarships eventually, and be able to help fund students with their academics and things like that. So, I think those were, that was the vision and the priorities for students, faculty, and staff on campus of the Black Student Center. 00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:55.000 So, to kind of piggyback off that, what do you think the university administration communicated was their vision? 00:37:55.000 --> 00:38:00.000 What do I think the university’s vision was? 00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:05.000 Yeah. The administration. 00:38:05.000 --> 00:40:39.000 Hmm. The administration. I think their vision was for the Black Student Center was student success. I think that with the administration, they heard our voices, they heard ASI’s resolution, they heard actual student voices at town hall meetings, they heard these in staff meetings with faculty and staff. I think they heard us and they acknowledged us by being able to support us or actually come together as a team to be able to bring this student center to fruition, and I think for the university administrators, for them, I think it was number one, acknowledging that--acknowledging us and our voice--and then number two, also being able to be, the Center being a vehicle for student success of some of our most vulnerable populations. And I think that was probably, I think that was like the two biggest things of what they saw the Black Student Center being as. Because it wasn't the first and nor do I think it will be the last student services center that will be on campus. But I feel like they've had a necessary blueprint with the Women's Center, now Gender Equity Center, the LGBTQ Pride Center, and the California, California Indian (Culture and) Sovereignty Center. Like they've seen these centers and how they can be resources and support for student success and so I just think it was just a, a natural but also inevitable direction into the, into the development of the Latino (Latinx) Center that is there now and the Black Student Center as well. 00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:52.000 So, do you know of any pushback or anything external or internal that going, people were trying to go against the opening of Black Student Center? 00:40:52.000 --> 00:55:25.000 Shoot, the opening of it, there was pushback before it was even a, a thought (laughs). Before it was even a thought. Oh gosh, and it's so funny cause kind of look at, I feel like I haven't really thought about this and so like reflected on just the steps that took to get there. But, wow, yeah there was pushback, and I think it was something that wasn't surprising because I think with change there's always, there's always some resistance to change. And so, with the Black Student Center, I feel like throughout it all, we had more support than opposition with the Black Student Center and from its infancy stage of when--let me think, let me think-- the infancy stage. So, I would bring that back to from going back to when I was telling you that I had made, at the beginning of my term as VP, I remember it even with seeing that on paper and trying to like say like this is going to happen, there was doubts even then ‘cause I'm like, ‘cause even with like with these spaces cost money and at the time we were like, Okay, we're already paying so much for tuition. Students don't want to pay no more fees. The university is like kind of gridlock right now because, you know, the recession and all this stuff like it was like and so for the, even for us to even think of the possibility of establishing a Black Student Center there were all those things that it was already going against it as far as doubts in the mind. But once you know different political and social movements started to gain traction and more Black student voices were being highlighted within campuses, and I remember there was like right down the street at the University of California, San Diego, UCSD, they had the Compton Cookout. They had the Compton Cookout where it was like predominantly white students. I think it was like a white fraternity decided to throw this party where they did blackface and had like durags and bandanas and like it just the whole playing different stereotypes and tropes of like the Black community and different things like that. And this was a campus that was literally like thirty-two miles away us and from that and having the Black Lives Matter movement and having all these police brutality cases and incidents and all this happening and gaining traction it actually almost reminded me of the 1960s, like Black Power movement, where you saw like a lot of Black and African American students at universities, like making their voices heard, fighting back with administration and making demands and being free to who they wanted to be. So, it kind of reminded me--I think that we're in this moment like right now. It has come full circle, and the movement that we're doing is like Black Lives Matters now and so it's just crazy to see how that evolved from there. So, like from that having all of this and having students like around the nation, Black students around the nation making demands and like, You know what, we're not asking permission anymore. Like we're not asking permission, and we need these things to happen in order for us to be successful. And so, from that environment and then going into specifically at Cal State San Marcos, President Karen Haynes had a town hall meeting about, I think it was about student success and retention, and I remember there were students there, were some students there that had organized to address the President about what are these things that, what are you and your administration governance at Cal State San Marcos. And so many students were coming up to let their voice be heard by asking these direct questions to the President of the university at the time. And I remember with, walking into that meeting because, of course, I had my hat on as the VP of Student University Affairs, so, I'm here representing ASI and so was a lot of my other--I'm there to represent ASI and hear what students had to say. So, just being there and feeling just the energy in the room, but then also walking in and noticing that there are like police officers on the roof and there's like heightened police security because I guess people just assume that this was going to be a very tense town hall meeting. And I'm all like, These are students. These are students. What was the point of having all this heightened police security? And like, that was like the first time I ever seen police officers like on the roof. Our UPD (University Police Department) on the roof and like just in the surrounding areas and feel like the town--the town hall was at, is it University Hall 101? It's like that big like lecture--Oh, it's not University Hall, it’s Academic Hall. Yeah, all this, like police everywhere, but in the hall being able to be in there and see that, and I feel like that was also kind of like, whether they knew it or not, or whether it wasn't intentional or not, that was also like something like a tactic to be like of intimidation. Like you're coming to this town hall where you kind of want to express how your experience as a Black student on this campus and you're like sitting here asking the university and its administration about how they're going to support you and then you have all this police presence. So, I think that was also an example of just kind of some pushback and whether it was intentional or not, no one knows for sure. But that was just something that it still impacts, you know, the environment. And then, so from that initial town hall to like the Black Student Union at the time writing like a letter, which wasn't necessarily a list of demands, or was it? I can't quite remember, but I know it was like the Black Student Center, I mean, not the Black Student Center, Black Student Union kind of writing this organized letter like a formal letter of everything that was kind of communicated within that town hall written on paper to send to (unclear). So, like after that town hall, she was like, I hear you, reached out to like the Black Student Union and was like, can you formalize all of your requests, write them down in a document or a letter, and be able to deliver it to my office? And so, the Black Student Union was able to do that and within that letter was the formation of a Black Student Center among other things. I can't really remember what it was word-for-word, but (unclear) the letter off to President Haynes and then I think like about like a month or so later, she addressed the campus community that she was putting together a Black Student Center Task Force that would look into the funding options and to be able to develop basically like a blueprint and everything about the formation of a possible center. So, once that happened, it was like, Oh, wow, that’s (unclear) to this. And then at the same point in time, I believe the ASI—'cause one role that the student government can play is that if there is something that we would want university administration to support, like an initiative that we would want university administration to support--we do what is called a resolution, and so at that moment, and I believe it was like February of 2016, is when we had our (unclear) in where one of the things on the agenda was a Black Student Center resolution. And so, there was this support resolution that was like backed by various faculty, departments, student organizations--both on campus and off campus--even statewide that was backed, everything on this and I think you can actually look at the resolution on Cal State San Marcos’ website. They have a list of resolutions there. But it was backed by so many people, and it was supported by just people both on and off campus. And so, I remember having this AS general body meeting in February, mind you it’s Black History Month, and that's when tensions arose, like that--if pushback was coming to a head, it was at that meeting. And that's where we saw, you know, our supporters and then we also saw people that opposed it as well. Not necessarily the guests that were there but also members of our (ASI) board that represented the different colleges that were on our campus that were, that opposed the resolution. And so, that was by far like the tensest board meeting I had ever attended. And that's where we saw it on our board that clearly stated that like, that slavery didn't build the foundation of our nation. Like, you can just see like the different opposing views and arguments just within the room and yeah, it is, it's just so hard to articulate at this moment. But just being there and being present and listening to opposition’s arguments, and I hear the voices of the folks that supported the resolution, but in the end, after all that deliberation, the resolution ended up passing and so we were able to send that resolution to also President Haynes as like the official like stamp of student voices that this is what the student body wants and accompanied with the Black Student Union (BSU) letter of like demands and stuff like that. And so, from that, it was the Task Force developed and so many people served on that community, that committee and from there, I think from there that's when things started, you know, kind of steam rolling ahead. But yeah, I feel like there was pushback from like the very beginning from even getting it from just this thought or idea or vision to the actual fruition of it. 00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:35.000 So, after that the Black Student Center was opened--after all the deliberation? 00:55:35.000 --> 00:58:27.000 So after, let's see, so we had the town hall meeting, there was the ASI meeting for, to pass the resolution. There was the BSU letter of like demands and then the Task Force was created and then after the Task Force and the budgetary things were kind of outlined, it went to another committee within the university, I think it was the university’s like, I forget, I forget what the acronym is now, but it was like the university's budgetary committee, and then it passed then, and then that's when like, the construction and stuff started for the Black Student Center. So, at this time, the University Student Union was already created, and it was already up and running and where the Black Student Center sits now (unclear) tranquility room, it was two tranquility rooms and like, an extra kitchen area, I think for that, I think it's that Jazzman’s, Jazzman's coffee shop there. And then, so they ended up relocating like the tranquility room and things, and like (unclear) of like the space, because the goal was to have it a part, to be with the rest of the student centers. So, since there was no more room on the third floor of the University Student Union because I believe it's like the Pride Center, Gender Equity Center, the Latino (Latinx) Center, because before the Latino(x) Center that was a social justice and diversity library in that space. So, they had renovated that space, made that to, made that the Latino(x) center and then there was the Cross-Cultural Center. Since all those spaces were taken up on that third floor, they had renovated that fourth-floor section to be, to house the Black Student Center. And so construction, reconstruction for that I believe started in, started in 2016. Yeah. Like starting in 2016. And then yeah, it was ready for like the grand opening that following year. 00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:34.000 And were you able to attend that grand opening? (technical difficulties) 00:58:34.000 --> 00:58:35.000 --Sorry? 00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:38.000 Sorry. Oh, no, no continue. Sorry. You cut off oddly. 00:58:38.000 --> 00:59:18.000 Oh, oh, okay. I said, so it does kind of seem a little fast, but I think all in all it was about like a three-year process, and I think what made it a little easier, too--and I won't necessarily say easier--but I feel like there was already kind of like a foundation and blueprint kind of laid out with the Latino(x) Center that had been created like I think a year or two before. So, they kind of engaged in the same process. Yeah. But you were saying about the grand opening? 00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:23.000 I was just asking, were you able to attend? 00:59:23.000 --> 01:01:03.000 I was and that was such a great experience. I was also able to sit in on the initial hiring cycle for the first Director of the Black Student Center. Because fortunately after I graduated, I was able to land a job in the Global Education Office on campus and so, I was able to transition from a student to staff and sit in on those meetings and hiring presentations. So, I was able to meet and connect with the Director of the, the first Director of the Black Student Center, and then I was able to attend the grand opening of the center, which happened to be in February of 2017, I believe, with Akilah (Green), who I said was so instrumental and connected me with (technical difficulties, unclear) on campus and (Tiffaney) Boyd, who was the sitting President while I was VP of ASI. And we were able to have, to share a few words at the ceremony and be a part of the whole, the whole celebration. And so, that was very, very rewarding to see something that I feel like we had put so much energy into to finally come back to campus and see it as an actual space. 01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:16.000 So, to kind of go back here. So, do you have any specific names or groups of people that you want to say, talk about who like helped with the opening of the Black Student Center? 01:01:16.000 --> 01:06:35.000 Oh my gosh. Oh, I wish I could like, could have thought about this to write down a list! But, oh my gosh, goodness, I am going to start from, let's see from the, I would say from like the bottom up because it was (grass)roots initiative. First, I would like to thank, or I would like to give recognition to the student organizations that helped support the Black Student Center initiative, and there was so many, there was, and if I forget anybody charge it to my head and not my heart, please. It was the feminist was, it was the, what was that? What was that collective called? Of course, it was the Black Student Union. It was MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán) at the time. It was KA, I think it was Come Along, Come Along Alliance. I'm probably butchering that name, but KA. It was like a coalition of social justice something. It was a student organization that they contributed a lot. Specific names: Karen Guzman (transitioned to Kai Guzman) she was instrumental. Or--instrumental. Her pronouns are they now, so they, they were instrumental in helping to articulate and be at the forefront of voicing their specific experience on campus. They were just able to just share their support with, with the initiative. So big shout out to--oh, and they don't go by Karen Guzman anymore. It's Kai. Yes. Big shout out to Kai! Shout out to or bringing recognition to our Sociology Department. I believe she was the chair at the time, Dr. Sharon Elise, and Geoffrey Gilmore, doctor--Oh my gosh. The list goes on. Dr. Dang (Chonwerawong), she's no longer at the university anymore, but she was over like student support like services (Student Academic Support Services) and stuff like that. Dr. Dang. Gosh. Akilah Green, Tiffaney Boyd, Bianca Garcia, Louis Adamsel, Jake Northington, Daniel Fare, just, gosh there's so many people. But those folks as well as even the support of our administrators, such as Dr. Lorena Checa and President Haynes, President Karen Haynes, for being able to hear our voices and acknowledge them and also being able to support that. Yeah, gosh, I--that's so crazy. I'm totally blanking, but there was, there was so many people, so many people. I remember reflecting after like graduation how, after everything has settled down, and really thinking about like my journey as the student and the connections that I made and even how those connections and relationships played a role into like the development of the Center, and it was like, if I would have never did this, and I would have never met this person and this person, and we would’ve never been there in order to have this occur and like—so, I think the universe and God works in just extraordinary, amazing ways and just to see how everything just the small things and the intricacy of how relationships and building bridges can lead to so many, so many things. So, yeah, that's all, that's what I can remember for now, but as I mentioned, if I forget anyone, please charge it to my head and not my heart. 01:06:35.000 --> 01:06:54.000 (unclear) So can you tell me a little bit about the early initiatives and programs and events that the Black Student Center focused on after its opening? 01:06:54.000 --> 01:11:36.000 Gosh, let me think. I think that--I could remember a lot more--but that was like four years ago, and I guess I have a horrible memory. But I believe the events and stuff that the Black Student Center focused on was building community. So, with University Hour being a thing, so I think it was like Tuesdays and Thursdays from the hours of twelve and one is like a no class period and so having events that built community within that timeframe so that students can come and visit the space and also be able to meet people. I think that was like a big thing and so there were different, what were the talks called? There was like a series that they would have, (unclear) of a weekly thing where students could come. I think right now they have something called Unity Hour but before that, it was something else like (unclear) lunch and learn or something like that. I don't know. But I know that was a thing also with being able to bridge partnerships with the local community colleges. So, for Black African American students that were transferring to cultivate that relationship with the campuses there, so that way there will be a good transition, where students know like when they come to campus that this is a resource for them. I know that was a big thing and specifically with the Umoja program that was at MiraCosta (College) and then also being able to bring folks on campus like different speakers and things like that. I remember like a comedy show, where this pretty big comedian came, and that was pretty cool. Being able to attend an event with the Black Panther Party. So, members of the Black Panther Party came, and that was an event. Also, about the Tulsa, the Tulsa Race Riots that happened and so like Black Wall Street, with the city (district) of Greenwood (Tulsa, Oklahoma) so being able to have representatives that are a part of that history to come and actually shed light on that event that happened for foundations that are associated with that. Being able to see and take a picture with Dr. Cornell West. I thought I would never, ever like meet him before. And so, then being able to help and—also, I won't say that the Black Student Center was the sole department to put on these events--but they were able to work with in collaboration with other departments on campus as well. So, like the Office of Inclusive Excellence and (unclear) and all those different departments, too, they were able to collaborate together, as well as the Black Faculty and Staff Association. But to bring these prominent Black folks on campus and have students be able to meet these people or be able to hear like kind of what they have to say, give advice and things like that, so opening that opportunity, that's what they were able to do that bring those events, those larger scale events to campus, too. So, I would say like in the beginning the Center primarily focused on community building, making sure folks knew that the Center was there and for them to utilize, and also being able to bring these big names to campus and building relationships with the local community colleges in in the area. 01:11:36.000 --> 01:11:39.000 So-- 01:11:39.000 --> 01:12:44.000 Oh, I would say, before I forget--because I remember this--I would say, one of the events that still sticks with me today, one of the first ones that the Black Student Center did was a Black women's appreciation luncheon, and that was our first time a center had held that on campus that I believe (unclear) Black women and where I was able to see a good amount of Black staff and faculty on campus that were able to come into the Black Student Center, like for the first time, and then actually receive a certification, not a certification, but a certificate and like free lunch of being appreciated. And so, I really appreciated that moment and being able to be a part of that. 01:12:44.000 --> 01:12:55.000 (Unclear) Do you know any of like wrinkles or problems that happened during the early days of the Black Student Center? 01:12:55.000 --> 01:14:28.000 Any wrinkles or problems? Let's see. Any wrinkles or problems. You know. Hmm. Not that I can really remember because in my experience at the time I was a staff, so I wasn't able to be in this space as much as like students were or other folks were, so I didn't really hear like too much about, especially if anything negative was happening in the Center. So as far as there being any like, can't really say too much about that because I wasn't, I wasn't privy to the information or anything like that. I think, only one thing that I can think of is like, I think just the formalities of hiring for student assistants. I think, I don't know if, yeah, how that went, but that's just stuff that I heard. 01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:38.000 Okay. So, in your opinion, what do you think the main purpose of the Center's creation was? 01:14:38.000 --> 01:15:34.000 For me, I think the main purpose of the Black Student Center was to have a space for Black students, Black faculty, and Black staff to be able to meet and fellowship with one another. And with that, with folks being able to come in this space to build this community, I think, led and leads to mentorship, scholarship, and other opportunities that we’re not necessarily privy to when we're in our silos. But I think the Center creates that space for us to really come together and be able to, a knowledge tank basically and exchange knowledge with one another. 01:15:34.000 --> 01:15:38.000 Do you feel like that purpose is being accomplished as right now? 01:15:38.000 --> 01:16:50.000 Right now it's kind of hard ‘cause we're in Covid times, and you know, folks aren't necessarily on campus as of yet, but I think that if it's not being done right now, I think it's going to be even crucial for when students do return to campus and for students that are anticipating on applying to Cal State San Marcos, for those students to know that this is a space that they can come to when they need help, when they need support, when they need resources, when they need to be connected to somebody on campus. I feel like the Black Student Center should be that one-stop shop for those students that are looking for those answers. Yeah, I think the role that the Black Student Center plays is going to be even more important as students start to come back to campus, Black students just start to come back to campus and staff and faculty for that matter. 01:16:50.000 --> 01:17:00.000 So, do you, how do you think the Black Student Center affected the community, the campus community as a whole? 01:17:00.000 --> 01:19:46.000 As of right now? I think it has, gosh, I mean, that's kind of hard to say because I'm not on campus anymore, but I think what I could gather from just the different like emails and social media postings is that they're bringing awareness to topics that affect Black people, certain things that, and I think that is helping to expose folks within the campus community that haven't had the opportunity to engage in those types of topics or conversations, for them to be able to have the ability to now and present that space for them to be able to engage in those types of things as well. Like talking about natural hair and talking about even different policies and legislations that maybe other folks within the campus community didn't know about, weren't aware about or didn't know how that impacts, you know, students or Black students specifically. That's one thing, but also about just other different topics that we talk about with how important community-based learning is to Black people like and being able to explore their research (unclear) when they apply that to within the classroom or even outside of the classroom. Also, about just different, you know, current events that happened, um, within the world. So specifically like with the Black Lives Matter movement and police brutality and the different cases that are associated with that--being able to have that space to talk about those things, not just within our community but also within the campus community as well, to see how other folks are dealing with these types of things that happen and for there to be healthy conversations that can come with that. 01:19:46.000 --> 01:19:56.000 So how has the Black Student Center impacted you personally? I know you’ve touched on it a bit, but-- 01:19:56.000 --> 01:22:29.000 Yeah, Black Student Center impacted me personally. I would say it’s more like, I guess, theoretical than like literally because I wasn't able to experience this, the space, as a current student. But just the process and the development of this, of the Center, it had impacted me in so many ways to believe in myself and my potential, to believe in the support and the village, how necessary it is to have a village around you and have folks and relationships of support. It has also impacted me in a way to know that (technical difficulties) used to love and it's from, I first heard it from A Cinderella Story with like Hilary Duff. But I think someone had told me that somebody else has said it somewhere but anyways, I think it was like Babe Ruth or something. I don't know, but it's a baseball like analogy and it's, “Never let the fear of striking out keep you from playing the game.” And for that, I could say that is applicable for the Center because, as I mentioned before, on that little piece of paper like there were so many doubts and fears that came with for that to even potentially be a thing. To not let in those doubts and fears, keep me from being a voice for students, being able to build and nurture those relationships on campus and not taking no for an answer. And I think that has helped to, the Black Center, the Black Student Center has helped to reinforce, to reinforce the power in my potential and even the folks around me and like leave your mark on campus. 01:22:29.000 --> 01:22:38.000 So, you've seen it grow and evolve. So, what do you want next, to see next for the Black Student Center? 01:22:38.000 --> 01:25:30.000 I would like to see the Black Student Center expand in space. I would like to see more funding put towards the Black Student Center to support additional roles within the space. So, for there to be like a Director and Associate Director, a coordinator, graduate assistants, student assistants, a team of volunteers. I would like to see for more funding to be put towards the Center to expand the staffing, as I just mentioned. I would like to see the Black Student Center really pushed to go against the grain, to tap into different areas that are not necessarily looked at on an everyday basis to continue strengthening the relationships that the university has with the community colleges but specifically with the Black organizations on those campuses to increase, you know, the Black student population to push them in a role in recruitment of Black faculty and staff, to be able to work in partnership with the Black Faculty and Staff Association as well as like other entities on campus like Omega Psi Phi, Incorporated, and Sigma Gamma Rho, Incorporated, to do like a Black student orientation or even a high school conference or with the Black Student Center, honestly, there are so many avenues that it could go down that will ultimately lead to student success, specifically with our Black students. And so, I'm just excited to see direct--the direction that they take especially after students return to campus. And just seeing the continuation of the events and programs that they already have as well as being able to tap into other workshops and things that they haven't necessarily explored yet, too. 01:25:30.000 --> 01:25:36.000 Well, those are all my questions for today. If you have, do you have anything else to add or anything you would like to say? 01:25:36.000 --> 01:27:03.000 I would say, well, let's see, is there anything else I would say? I think the last thing that I would say is that I truly and dearly hope that the essence of the Black Student Center continues to fulfill its purpose at Cal State San Marcos. And I hope that it will endure forever and when I go back and visit the campus like ten, twenty years from now that it is not in the same area with the same dimensions that it before I was, I mean, after I was a student, or during the time I was a student, but that it has expanded and its initiatives have expanded and it is still present, it's still a presence and dynamic as ever on the campus. So that is, that is one thing that I hope for, for the Black Student Center is that it stays and remains like on campus fulfilling its purpose. 01:27:03.000 --> 01:27:09.000 Well, I'm glad. Thank you so much for allowing me to interview today. It was a wonderful interview. Thank you so much. 01:27:09.000 --> 01:27:16.000 You're welcome. Thank you. Gosh, you got my wheels turning today. (laughs) 01:27:16.000 --> 01:27:18.500 I'm glad. Thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. 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Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. &#13 ; &#13 ; The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the library's materials. &#13 ; 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JohnsonJamaela_FordAyana_2021-04-30_access.xml JohnsonJamaela_FordAyana_2021-04-30_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Johnson, Jamaéla. Interview April 30th, 2021. Description An account of the resource Jamaéla Johnson is an alumna of California State University San Marcos. While at CSUSM, she worked in various capacities on campus with the Gender Equity Center, the Black Student Union, and Associated Students Incorporated (ASI). Much of her work involved talking and working with fellow students regarding their shared needs around campus. In her interview, Johnson discusses her roles in advocating for the Black Student Center, as well as the journey towards the Center's opening. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-06 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-30 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jamaéla Johnson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos, Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos, Black Student Center California State University San Marcos--Students Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Jamaéla Johnson Type The nature or genre of the resource moving image Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. <span data-contrast="auto" xml:lang="EN-US" lang="EN-US" class="TextRun SCXW102966250 BCX0"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW102966250 BCX0">Black Student Center Oral History Project</span></span><span class="EOP SCXW102966250 BCX0" data-ccp-props="{}">&nbsp;</span> Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/7544e0fd4dd9179f144e1eb4d985afb4.pdf aa25757789fa26e5e45dc03a2a2c51dd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Johnson, Jamaéla. Interview transcript, April 30, 2021. Description An account of the resource Jamaéla Johnson is an alumna of California State University San Marcos. While at CSUSM, she worked in various capacities on campus with the Gender Equity Center, the Black Student Union, and Associated Students Incorporated (ASI). Much of her work involved talking and working with fellow students regarding their shared needs around campus. In her interview, Johnson discusses her roles in advocating for the Black Student Center, as well as the journey towards the Center's opening. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jamaéla Johnson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ayana Ford Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-04-30 Subject The topic of the resource Black experience in America California State University San Marcos, Associated Students Incorporated California State University San Marcos, Black Student Center California State University San Marcos--Students Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Jamaéla Johnson Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JohnsonJamaéla_FordAyana_2021-04-30_transcript Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Black Student Center Oral History Project Black experience Black Student Center Oral History Project https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/ce87bf32829b06de7c64c4eb2cb64a5b.pdf 6b89a347e47776704b3c2f7de279a7e6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Forster, James. Interview Transcript, November 22, 2024. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource James Robert Forster II Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Adel Bautista Marilyn Huerta Justin Gans Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. James Robert Forster II Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ForsterJames_BeyerJason_2024-11-22_transcript Description An account of the resource James Robert Forster II served in Korea as a crew chief and flight mechanic for the U.S. Air Force during the Vietnam War and reached his highest rank of E5 Staff Sergeant. Forster recalled the challenges of an unaccompanied tour to Korea, the strains it put on his first marriage, as well as his return home during the height of the anti-war movement. He praised the education and experiences he gained from military service, including travel, recreation, training, and the G.I. Bill. After military service, Forster worked in the insurance business and met his wife at university. He reflected on his family, travels after retirement, and the life lessons he learned from military service. License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Korea Vietnam Wichita (Kan.) San Jose (Calif.) Sacramento (Calif.) North China Sea Osan (Korea) Kunsan (Korea) Gwangju (Korea) Daegu (Korea) Mount Fuji (Japan) Tokyo (Japan) Okinawa (Japan) Taipei (Taiwan) Taichung (Taiwan) Tampa (Fla.) Portland (Or.) San Diego (Calif.) Caribbean El Cajon (Calif.) Chicago (Ill.) Type The nature or genre of the resource text Subject The topic of the resource United States. Air Force—Veterans Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 Aircraft mechanics United States. Air Force—Noncommissioned officers West Valley College (Saratoga, Calif.) McClellan Air Force Base (Calif.) Kadena Air Base (Okinawa-ken, Japan) MacDill Air Force Base (Fla.) National University (San Diego, Calif.) California State University San Marcos Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jason Beyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed James Robert Forster II OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ForsterJamesRobert_BeyerJason_2022-11-22_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Veteran United States Air Force;Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975;Korea;aircraft mechanic;Staff Sergeant OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Forster II, James Robert. Interview November 22nd, 2024. SC027-070 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm Veteran United States Air Force ; Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 ; Korea ; aircraft mechanic ; Staff Sergeant James Robert Forster II Jason Beyer Moving Image ForsterJamesRobert_BeyerJason_2022-11-22_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/ec56e576cd1e3f6843c0218021dd47d3.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview Introduction 0 69 Military Background Forster served in the U.S. Air Force and attained his highest rank of E5 Staff Sergeant. He served in Korea during the Vietnam War. United States Air Force ; E5 Staff Sergeant ; Korea ; Vietnam War 0 91 Youth and Enlistment Raised in Wichita, Kansas then San Jose, California, Forster had a high draft number, so he enlisted into the Air Force for aircraft maintenance training. Wichita (Kan.) ; San Jose (Calif.) ; West Valley College ; Kenny's Shoe Store ; newspaper delivery ; enlistment ; aircraft maintenance ; training 0 201 Training and Promotions As a crew chief and flight mechanic, Forster did maintenance for many aircraft. He also recalls his training instructors and promotions. crew chief ; C-97 ; C-121 ; C-47 ; flight mechanic ; McClellan Air Force Base ; Sacramento (Calif.) ; wing commander ; 552nd Air Control Wing ; airborne early warning and control ; North American Aerospace Defense Command ; instructor ; promotion ; Airman First Class ; Korea 0 431 Adapting to the Military Lifestyle Forster recalls his challenging unaccompanied tour to Korea, which strained his marriage and included harsh weather. He appreciated the military’s reliable chain of command. Forster tells a story about refusing to let a colonel fly his airplane and how the chain of command supported his decision. unaccompanied tour ; Korea ; Sacramento (Calif.) ; winter ; monsoon ; chain of command ; non-commissioned officer ; full bird colonel 0 615 Reflections on Serving in Korea during the Vietnam War Forster was part of the replenishment of relieving the Air National Guard from Korea. Most of his work entailed flying passengers and mail. In hindsight, he reflects on how much better he had it than the aircraft mechanics in Vietnam. Navy ; USS Pueblo ; North China Sea ; Air National Guard ; Korea ; Frontier Airlines ; Braniff Airlines ; American Airlines ; Transamerica ; Douglas AC-47 Spooky ; Agent Orange ; Osan (Korea) ; Kunsan (Korea) ; Gwangju (Korea) ; Daegu (Korea) 0 749 Camaraderie and Recreation Forster’s fondest memories with his military comrades were in the bar they set up in the barracks day room. The bar was their main place to recreate when off duty, although some did Taekwondo and other activities. He also mimics a Korean houseboy who took care of the common areas. camaraderie ; friendship ; non-commissioned officer ; Air Force Times ; flight engineers ; flight mechanics ; day room ; barracks ; bar ; the Airman's Club ; beer ; recreation ; Taekwondo ; Korean ; houseboy 0 909 In-Flight Emergencies Forster recalls flying over Japan at Mount Fujiyama in a C-47. It was during a severe winter storm with strong winds, and he almost ran out of fuel. in-flight emergencies ; pre-flight ; Mount Fuji (Japan) ; C-47 ; Tokyo (Japan) ; wind ; storm ; winter 0 1007 Socializing with Locals, Sea Survival School, and Interactions with the Second Chinese Air Force in Taiwan Forster had great experiences with local people. While in Sea Survival School in Okinawa at Kadena Air Base, he saw flying missions to Vietnam, including an SR-71. He also recalls flying to Taiwan to pick up a C-47. He was very impressed by the “Second Chinese Air Force.” Japan ; Okinawa (Japan) ; Korea ; locals ; Sea Survival School ; Kadena Air Base ; SR-71 ; inspect and repair as necessary ; Taipei (Taiwan) ; Taichung (Taiwan) ; Second Chinese Air Force ; gunship ; C-47 ; C-119 ; C-130 0 1315 Ending Service, Returning Home, Readjusting to Civilian Life, Work, and the G.I. Bill Forster drove across the country from MacDill Air Force Base to San Jose, California. He recalls returning home during the height of the Vietnam War and the anti-war movement. In his words, “There was no welcome for the returning veteran.” Nevertheless, he went back to school, met his wife, and got an MBA using the G.I. Bill. He worked at an insurance company and had a Farmers Insurance agency for 10 years. MacDill Air Force Base ; Tampa (Fla.) ; San Jose (Calif.) ; parents ; veteran ; protest ; college ; sociology ; wife ; marriage ; Farmers Insurance ; insurance agency ; G.I. Bill ; National University ; Master of Business Administration 0 1484 Continuing Friendships and Veterans Organizations Forster lost track of most friends from military service. He joined the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) but left because they could not decide whether he was an Army veteran or an Air Force veteran. friendship ; Portland (Or.) ; Veterans of Foreign Wars ; Army veteran ; Air Force veteran 0 1532 Reflections on Life After Military Service Forster talks about his wife, his children, his grandchildren, and his travels with family. He says military service taught him that “your word is your bond.” CSU San Marcos ; San Diego (Calif.) ; Sapphire Princess Cruise ; Caribbean ; Disney World ; COVID ; El Cajon (Calif.) ; school 0 1656 What People Should Know About Veterans and a Message for Future Generations Forster encourages anyone enlisting in the military to be open minded. He says military service can include many positive experiences, like travel and education. Forster recounts how his training could have an aircraft maintenance career, but he ultimately chose the insurance business. military ; veterans ; Air Force ; Korea ; Okinawa (Japan) ; Taipei (Taiwan) ; United Airlines ; Chicago (Ill.) ; aircraft mechanic ; insurance business 0 Oral history James Robert Forster II served in Korea as a crew chief and flight mechanic for the U.S. Air Force during the Vietnam War and reached his highest rank of E5 Staff Sergeant. Forster recalled the challenges of an unaccompanied tour to Korea, the strains it put on his first marriage, as well as his return home during the height of the anti-war movement. He praised the education and experiences he gained from military service, including travel, recreation, training, and the G.I. Bill. After military service, Forster worked in the insurance business and met his wife at university. He reflected on his family, travels after retirement, and the life lessons he learned from military service. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:06.325 My name is Jason Victor Beyer. I'm a graduate of California State University San Marcos. Today I will be interviewing James Robert Forester II. Today's date is Friday, November 22, 2024. We are located inside the Kellogg Library at California State University San Marcos, located at 333 South Twin Oaks Valley Road, San Marcos, California 92096. My relationship to the interviewee is that we are both military veterans. The names of the people attending this interview are the interviewer, Jason Victor Beyer, the interviewee, James Robert Forster II, Marilyn Huerta, and camera operator, Adel Bautista. Today's purpose of the interview is to conduct an oral history. Please state your full name, first, middle, and last name. 00:01:06.325 --> 00:01:09.344 James Robert Forster II. 00:01:09.344 --> 00:01:10.775 Your branch of service. 00:01:10.775 --> 00:01:13.025 United States Air Force. 00:01:13.025 --> 00:01:15.775 The highest ranked you attained. 00:01:15.775 --> 00:01:18.015 E5 Staff Sergeant. 00:01:18.015 --> 00:01:23.314 And the war or conflict that you served during your time of service. 00:01:23.314 --> 00:01:31.685 During Vietnam—actually in Korea, but that was during the Vietnam conflict. 00:01:31.685 --> 00:01:38.105 Thank you. So today we'll begin with your biographical details. Where were you born? 00:01:38.105 --> 00:01:40.215 Wichita, Kansas. 00:01:40.215 --> 00:01:44.515 What was life like in Wichita, Kansas for you? 00:01:44.515 --> 00:01:59.155 I attended elementary school till fourth grade, and then we moved from Wichita, Kansas for a job transfer for my father to San Jose, California. 00:01:59.155 --> 00:02:04.245 Does your family have any past affiliations with the military? 00:02:04.245 --> 00:02:11.444 Yes, my uncle, my father, my grandfather—each of them served in the military. 00:02:11.444 --> 00:02:16.175 Did that play a role in your joining the military? 00:02:16.175 --> 00:02:39.405 I was a student at West Valley Junior College (West Valley College) and not doing well academically. The draft came around in '67 and my number was high, so rather than be drafted I joined on delayed enlistment into the Air Force so I could get training. 00:02:39.405 --> 00:02:44.145 Did you hold any jobs prior to entering the military service? 00:02:44.145 --> 00:02:54.155 Yes, I sold shoes for Kenny's Shoe Store and delivered newspapers—those kind of things. 00:02:54.155 --> 00:03:04.544 When and why did you choose to join the military? So you said you weren't drafted, but why specifically did you choose the branch of the Air Force? 00:03:04.544 --> 00:03:21.395 So I could have aircraft maintenance schooling. I spent nine months in tech school after basic training to learn aircraft maintenance. 00:03:21.395 --> 00:03:33.544 For your early days of service, what is your most vivid memory, both the best and worst parts of training of your time during school in the Air Force. 00:03:33.544 --> 00:04:07.034 I had to learn different aircraft in their operations—the engine, the airframes. As a crew chief, I was responsible for all of those things to ensure that they worked well. I worked on C-97s, I worked on C-121s, I worked on C-47s, and flew for two years on C-47s as a flight mechanic. 00:04:07.034 --> 00:04:12.525 What was your first assignment like after basic training? 00:04:12.525 --> 00:04:55.415 I was sent to McClellan Air Force Base in Sacramento, California, and I was assigned to the Wing Commander of the 552nd Airborne early warning and control wing's squadron commander. So I was a crew chief on that aircraft. It was different than the airborne early warning that the C-121s did for NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command), but all we did was make sure that that airplane is ready when the wing commander wanted to go somewhere. So we spent a lot of time cleaning and prepping. 00:04:55.415 --> 00:05:00.095 Do you recall your instructors while you were in training? 00:05:00.095 --> 00:05:03.555 Not by name. 00:05:03.555 --> 00:05:05.884 Do you recall what they were like? 00:05:05.884 --> 00:05:31.204 They were demanding, because what we did people's lives depended upon, and they wanted to ensure that we as the airmen understood how important it was for the aircraft to be air worthy and safe for flight. That's what we were taught and instilled in us. 00:05:31.204 --> 00:05:42.485 Did you qualify with equipment such as vehicles, aircraft, radios, weapons? If so, what was that training with that equipment like? 00:05:42.485 --> 00:06:19.574 We did total—(Forster coughs)—total airframe, from ensuring that the aircraft was ready for flight—it was fueled, it was oiled and it was pre-flighted so that when the pilots came to the aircraft, it was ready to go—as close as it could be. 00:06:19.574 --> 00:06:25.105 Did you receive any promotions, and if so, could you tell me about them? 00:06:25.105 --> 00:07:11.704 I was promoted to Airman First Class probably when I went—when I was assigned to Korea. That's E4, and you have to pass a test. You have to demonstrate competency on the equipment, understanding of the aircraft system and systems. And then once you've done that test, then the promotion is awarded, but it's not awarded until you've earned it. So each promotion was based on merit. 00:07:11.704 --> 00:07:17.264 What was the hardest part of the military lifestyle for you to adopt to. 00:07:17.264 --> 00:07:21.074 Unaccompanied tour to Korea. 00:07:21.074 --> 00:07:23.764 Why do you think that was? 00:07:23.764 --> 00:08:07.735 I just got married in Sacramento, and it was my first time overseas. And, unaccompanied tours are hard on both parties of the relationship. It was—the work in Korea, it has a severe winter and a severe monsoon season in the spring. And operating aircraft under harsh conditions is a challenge all in and of itself. 00:08:07.735 --> 00:08:13.514 So combined with the weather conditions, it created an even harder hardship— 00:08:13.514 --> 00:08:16.074 Yeah. Yeah. 00:08:16.074 --> 00:08:21.865 What was the easiest part of the military lifestyle for you to adopt to. 00:08:21.865 --> 00:08:36.375 I liked the hierarchy. You know that the chain of command works and if you follow the chain of command that everything will go smooth. 00:08:36.375 --> 00:08:46.375 What were your interactions like with people you encountered while you were doing your stateside service? 00:08:46.375 --> 00:10:15.904 Each of the NCOs (non-commissioned officers) that were teaching the aircraft maintenance and the specifics of it were concerned about the airman's capability of teaching and learning complex systems and working within a framework to make the aircraft airworthy. And I took that extremely seriously. There were times when the aircraft was not ready to go. And in aircraft maintenance records, you can red "x" it if there's a safety issue. I did—had a full bird colonel in Korea who wanted to take my airplane for some kind of flight. I told him, "Sir, you cannot take this airplane. It's grounded." And I—the reasons for it were in the aircraft maintenance records. He said, "Well, I wanna take it." And I said, "Fine, let's go to the wing commander. We'll go to the wing commander, and if you can convince him that you can take this aircraft, then it's safe even though I told you it's not safe—you go right ahead." He did not go to the wing commander. (Forster coughs.) Excuse me. 00:10:15.904 --> 00:10:21.924 So you served in Korea during while the Vietnam War was happening? 00:10:21.924 --> 00:12:29.683 Yes. The Navy lost a ship called the Pueblo in the North China Sea. And the military was staffed by the Air National Guard. So I was part of the replenishment of relieving the Air National Guard from Korea so they could go back to their jobs in industry. I met pilots from Frontier Airlines, Braniff Airlines, American Airlines, Transamerica—and that's why I went to Korea. I didn't realize at the time that it was a blessing that I was sent to Korea rather than to Vietnam, because my aircraft in Vietnam had a name called Spooky. It was mounted with a Gatling gun, a .50 caliber machine gun, and a spotlight in the back cargo door, and it flew night missions only after Agent Orange had been defoliated. I didn't know at the time that I had a much better position—job position—than, you know, just—I was just flying passengers and mail from Osan to Kunsan to Gwangju to Daegu, like an airliner route. So we did that in the morning and had lunch in Daegu and then flew back in the afternoon. That was basically what we did. But, you know, I didn't realize, like I said before, that the—(Forster coughs)—duty in Korea, while harsh—(coughs)—was way different than what I would've experienced had I've been sent to Vietnam with all my other fellow aircraft mechanics. 00:12:29.683 --> 00:12:39.865 What was your—did you create any friendships or camaraderie with people that you served with while in Korea? 00:12:39.865 --> 00:13:31.000 Yes. Each person you get to be friends with and you learn who's friendly, you know? And the senior NCOs were really good. We had a crew of flight engineers, or flight mechanics, who—they were called—we were called the Bush Airline. And I gave you a copy of the article that was in the Air Force Times, talking about the Bush Airline. We just talked about the mission that we did in Korea, and, um (long pause)— 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:32.000 —Um— 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:34.835 —I just drew blank. Go ahead. Ask me another question— 00:13:34.835 --> 00:13:40.065 —No worries. What did you do for recreation or when you were off duty? 00:13:40.065 --> 00:14:34.225 Oh! In our barracks, we had a day room, and we set up a bar in that day room. And that picture that I gave you—of me with the Olympia beer can—I was helping run the bar in the barracks. So whenever we were not flying and not scheduled to work, we were able to drink right there. We didn't have to go to the Airman's Club. We had our own thing, and we stocked it with beer, and that's that kind of thing. It was an off duty place to recreate, I guess. Some of the guys went to Taekwondo, some of us just did other odd activities. 00:14:34.225 --> 00:14:40.000 Do you recall any particularly humorous or unusual events during your off time? 00:14:40.000 --> 00:15:09.845 Well, there were so many amazing events at the bar. You know, you have to send people home—say, No, you have to go to your bunk. You can't stay here anymore (Forster laughs). But we had a Korean houseboy who took care of the common areas, and he took care of our bar. And he says, "You keep it clean" (Forster mimics accents, Beyer and Forster laugh). 00:15:09.845 --> 00:15:23.000 When you would fly on missions or in the aircraft, was there anything that you did for good luck while you were—before or after the flight? Or did it just become common that— 00:15:23.000 --> 00:16:47.404 —It's common. You do the pre-flight, you ensure that the aircraft is capable, and then you just go. We did have in-flight emergencies on several occasions. One time we were flying over Japan at Mount Fujiyama, and the wind was really severe. And the aircraft that—C-47 doesn't fly very fast. Maybe a hundred knots. You know, it's not much more than a hundred knots. And the winds were 80 knots, so we weren't making much ground speed. And the aircraft—you're flying at 10,000 feet, and at the top ceiling, and the mountain is higher than where you're flying. And when we landed in Tokyo, that particular flight, I dipped the tanks and we had, like, a very small amount of fuel. I don't know the exact amount, but it was almost out of fuel. So, but that was a severe winter and severe storm, and we flew right through it. 00:16:47.404 --> 00:17:03.365 So, what were your interactions like with the local cultures and the people you encountered while you were in Japan ; Okinawa, Japan ; or in Korea? 00:17:03.365 --> 00:21:55.865 The local people were great. Let's see, we'll talk about—in Japan, they brought us—the base flight brought us our fuel, our oil, our in-flight meals. And they're real accommodating, you know? Whatever you want—they bring you hot coffee, whatever, out to the flight line. In Okinawa, we—because I was flying people and over water, you had to go to Sea Survival School. So I was at Sea Survival School in Okinawa at Kadena Air Base. They—(Forster coughs, long pause). When the Sea Survival School was going on, part of it was we were dropped in the ocean in one-man life rafts. And the shark repellent is discharged around your life rafts, and you're left there for, I think it was eight hours—it seemed like forever. But the most important part about that is I was able to observe aircraft operations from Kadena Air Base. They were flying missions to Vietnam from Kadena. I saw an SR-71, which the military never admitted existed until recently. If you wanna see an SR-71, you have to go to the aerospace museum. That's where one is available for you to see. But they would—it just had two tails, and they would bring it out of the revetment, and bring (it) to the end of the runway. And they did very little run up time. They didn't want anybody to be able to see that aircraft, because obviously they didn't want it to be known that it existed. So they do—(Forster coughs)—a short run up, and then take off and stand it on its tail. And it was out of sight—less than a minute, just gone. And I found out later that those were flying bombing runs to Vietnam. (Forster coughs.) So then, another time—that was the Sea Survival School. Another time we went to pick up an airplane from the Second Chinese Air Force I.R.A.N. (Inspect and Repair As Necessary). It's done in Taipei, Taichung—or "Taichay," Taichung—but Taipei. Anyhow, the Second Chinese Air Force did extensive overhauls for military aircraft. When we flew in there, we went in to pick up one C-47. That was not a gunship, just one of ours. And I saw a whole line of C-47 gunships, C-119 gunships, and C-130 gunships that's a sign that the Second Chinese Air Force was doing—it's a major overhaul. They take everything off of the engine, they—engines off—and then they put it back together, and they have really high maintenance standards. When we got the engine and engine runup after it came out of the inspection, there was no oil leaks on—a recip (reciprocating) engine is notorious for a lot of oil leaks, not a little bit, but it is always leaking something somewhere. And the Second Chinese Air Force did such a good job that we had clean engines—when brought it up, opened the cowling up, was clean. Our engine people rarely did work that good. You know, so I have a great deal of respect for the people from the maintenance facility at the Second Chinese Air Force. 00:21:55.865 --> 00:22:02.045 Do you recall the day your service ended? Where were you when your service ended? 00:22:02.045 --> 00:22:20.105 I was at MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa, Florida, getting an "early out" to go to school. I drove cross country from MacDill Air Force Base back to San Jose, California. 00:22:20.105 --> 00:22:21.884 So you returned home? 00:22:21.884 --> 00:22:25.144 I returned to my parents' house, yeah. 00:22:25.144 --> 00:22:28.983 How were you received by your family and community when you— 00:22:28.983 --> 00:23:54.743 —By my family, fine. By the community and not for (redacted)—excuse my language. I have a tendency to be pretty frank. There was no welcome for the returning veteran. None. You know, it was at the height of the Vietnam War, the protests were going on, and I was going back to college, and I ended up in a sociology class called, Introduction to Marriage and Family. That was the only class that I could register for. And, having gone through a messy divorce while I was in the service, I was not a real joiner. You know, I was good time guy, but I didn't want anything to do with serious things. And, I ended up with—the marriage and family instructor had the class divided into groups, and they had one group with six women and me, and I ended up in that group and met my wife there. We will be married 52 years on December 9th. So, it stuck. 00:23:54.743 --> 00:24:03.265 How did you readjust to civilian life? Did you go back to work? You said you went to school. What did you do after school? 00:24:03.265 --> 00:24:24.414 I worked for an insurance company for like almost 10 years. I trained insurance agents. And then I went into my own insurance agency. I had a Farmers Insurance agency for 10 years. 00:24:24.414 --> 00:24:28.000 Did the GI Bill affect you while you were going to school? Did that help you go to— 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:28.664 —Yeah— 00:24:28.664 --> 00:24:28.674 —school? 00:24:28.674 --> 00:24:44.025 Yeah. Yeah, I went to National University, completed my—what was left of my VA, and completed my MBA on the GI Bill. That was what, '78? 00:24:44.025 --> 00:24:50.194 Did you continue any friendships after this service, and if so, for how long? 00:24:50.194 --> 00:25:04.105 One of my friends is still in Portland, and I've lost track with almost everybody else. 00:25:04.105 --> 00:25:07.243 Did you join any veterans organizations? 00:25:07.243 --> 00:25:32.144 I joined the VFW (Veterans of Foreign Wars). But when the VFW couldn't seem to get their act together, and they couldn't decide whether I was an Army veteran or an Air Force veteran, I stopped doing business with them (Forster laughs). I said, If you don't know who I am or where I come from, I don't need to be here paying you dues (laughs). 00:25:32.144 --> 00:25:41.154 How has your service impacted your life, your community, your faith, and your family? 00:25:41.154 --> 00:27:09.605 That's—that's a big bunch (laughs). My service affected my life. I always had strong beliefs. I was fortunate enough to meet a strong woman who was able to help me in my shortcomings. We raised two kids together, one of which graduated from here (CSU San Marcos) in 2005. The other son is a tax auditor for the city of San Diego. And, we travel together. We were just recently on a Sapphire Princess Cruise to the Caribbean. We had a ten day cruise, and then we went two days to Disney World. And the kids are really important, and we just—our first granddaughter was born during COVID time. She's five years old, and she just started private school in El Cajon. I don't know if she'll ever go to a public school again. But— 00:27:09.605 --> 00:27:15.105 What are some life lessons you learned from your military service. 00:27:15.105 --> 00:27:36.694 About, your word is your bond. You need to be accountable for the things that you say, and you need to stand by your words and be complete with everyone that you deal with. 00:27:36.694 --> 00:27:46.855 What message would you like to leave for future generations who will view or hear this interview? 00:27:46.855 --> 00:28:42.505 I would like everyone to realize that when you go into the military or you go into an unfamiliar situation and you go with an open mind and an open heart, you're going to learn things that may not be in the book. They may not be—(Forster coughs)—what you think you should be, but you need to listen to your heart, I guess. But you need to learn from people who offer their knowledge. And it may not always make sense. It's important to be open to new opportunities and apply yourself. 00:28:42.505 --> 00:28:58.204 Thank you for taking the time to share your recollections of your military service. Is there anything you've always wanted to share about your service or veteran experience that you never had before? 00:28:58.204 --> 00:29:01.095 No, I don't think so. 00:29:01.095 --> 00:29:05.414 What do you wish more people knew about veterans? 00:29:05.414 --> 00:30:29.144 That they are people who have the same wants and aspirations as you do, but have chosen to go into the service for whatever reason they go there. But they end up benefiting much more than they expected because you learn from life experiences, you learn from positive experiences. In the Air Force, I didn't get to see a lot of the world, but I did see a lot more than most people do. You know, in my experiences of going to Korea, or going to Okinawa, or to Taipei to the overall facility. All of those are learning experiences, and each one you meet people who are really important to the operation, to the aircraft, to the people. And they have a tendency to consider that it's important that you understand the reasons why you're doing something as well as doing it well. 00:30:29.144 --> 00:30:36.944 In your unveiling of the journey, what are the lessons learned from your military experience? 00:30:36.944 --> 00:31:43.934 There are so, so many. You know, I just, I learned a skill that I did not know before I went in. It could have taken a job—a job, um, what I wanna say—a job, uh, United Airlines—I was offered a job when I came back from the Air Force. One of my friends, my parents' neighbors was a corporate attorney for United Airlines. And he says, We can send you to Chicago to our maintenance facility. You can be an aircraft mechanic there. And I just met my wife and I said, My desire to work in harsh environments again is not something I wanna do (Forster laughs, coughs). So I turned him down, and I ended going into the insurance business. 00:31:43.934 --> 00:31:45.535 Thank you for your time today. 00:31:45.535 --> 00:31:46.535 Thank you. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the &#13 ; creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=ForsterJamesRobert_BeyerJason_2022-11-22_access.xml ForsterJamesRobert_BeyerJason_2022-11-22_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Forster II, James Robert. Interview November 22nd, 2024. Description An account of the resource James Robert Forster II served in Korea as a crew chief and flight mechanic for the U.S. Air Force during the Vietnam War and reached his highest rank of E5 Staff Sergeant. Forster recalled the challenges of an unaccompanied tour to Korea, the strains it put on his first marriage, as well as his return home during the height of the anti-war movement. He praised the education and experiences he gained from military service, including travel, recreation, training, and the G.I. Bill. After military service, Forster worked in the insurance business and met his wife at university. He reflected on his family, travels after retirement, and the life lessons he learned from military service. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-070 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-22 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource James Robert Forster II Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Marilyn Huerta Adel Bautista Subject The topic of the resource United States. Air Force—Veterans Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975 Aircraft mechanics United States. Air Force—Noncommissioned officers West Valley College (Saratoga, Calif.) McClellan Air Force Base (Calif.) Kadena Air Base (Okinawa-ken, Japan) MacDill Air Force Base (Fla.) National University (San Diego, Calif.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Korea Vietnam Wichita (Kan.) San Jose (Calif.) Sacramento (Calif.) North China Sea Osan (Korea) Kunsan (Korea) Gwangju (Korea) Daegu (Korea) Mount Fuji (Japan) Tokyo (Japan) Okinawa (Japan) Taipei (Taiwan) Taichung (Taiwan) Tampa (Fla.) Portland (Or.) San Diego (Calif.) Caribbean El Cajon (Calif.) Chicago (Ill.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. James Robert Forster II License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/67921431bd6e9ca8ce1ba1d3c044d068.pdf 7cbc407be4bff4412696fcbf4fb57a8f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lacea, Jan Michael Letigio. Interview transcript, November 8, 2024. Description An account of the resource Jan Michael Letigio Lacea served in the Navy for eight years. He was frocked Petty Officer First Class HM1 (Hospital Corpsman First Class) before he left the service. Lacea described his service in the Philippines for Operation Enduring Freedom, and he reflected on his own identity as a Filipino American immigrant. He also recounted his return to civilian life, attending graduate school at CSU San Marcos, the support he received from the CSUSM Veterans’ Center, and the life lessons he learned from military service. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jan Michael Letigio Lacea Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jason Beyer Adel Bautista Marilyn Huerta Justin Gans Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-11-08 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Marine Corps Air Station Miramar (Calif.) Missouri State University Operation Enduring Freedom, 2001-2014 -- Philippines San Diego State University United States. Navy United States. Navy -- Hospital corpsmen Veterans -- United States Great Lakes (Ill.) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Fallbrook (Calif.) Cebu City (Philippines) Springfield (Mo.) Okinawa (Japan) Louisiana San Antonio (Tex.) Zamboanga (Philippines) Manila (Philippines) Boracay (Philippines) Bohol (Philippines) Arkansas Marawi (Philippines) Iraq Afghanistan North County San Diego (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Jan Michael Letigio Lacea License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LetigioLaceaJan_BeyerJason_2024-11-08_transcript Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. San Diego Veterans History Initiative Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history San Diego Veterans History Initiative Veteran experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Madeleine Meyer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jay Franklin OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=FranklinJay_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-12.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Franklin, Jay. Interview April 12, 2023. SC027-026 35:02 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs Education, Higher Human rights LGBTQ+ activism Jay Franklin Madeleine Meyer Moving Image FranklinJay_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-12.mp4 1:|15(10)|33(6)|47(4)|68(3)|81(15)|94(15)|119(13)|131(12)|148(1)|168(5)|187(1)|205(9)|228(1)|239(13)|271(14)|283(11)|308(14)|327(6)|341(5)|355(2)|370(14)|385(16)|407(8)|442(6)|474(11)|485(4)|510(13)|523(8)|540(16)|554(14)|566(6)|600(7)|625(1)|635(12)|653(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/6bbcdb372d4f92f0e23c4484059a9d18.mp4 Other video English 0 Interview introduction + Franklin's early life and education prior to CSUSM Jay Franklin reflects on his educational journey as well as the cross-country move he made that landed him back in California, where he was born, ultimately leading to a career change from cosmetology to academia. Cosmetology ; Education ; Military Family ; San Diego ; Tidewater Community College, Virginia Beach ; Virginia Beach, Virginia 220 Franklin enrolls at California State San Marcos for his B.A. in 2005. Franklin discusses his decision to attend CSUSM, as well as giving a general outline of his path back to the university once he had his undergraduate degree. Bridgepoint Education/Asher University ; California State University San Marcos ; Careers in higher education ; City College ; Higher education ; Matriculation Coordinator ; San Diego ; San Diego State University ; San Marcos 375 Finding Student Life and Leadership Franklin describes joining a campus LGBTQ+ organization, the stealing of the student organization's banner, and his encountering of Student Life and Leadership and the Multicultural Programs Office through that act of hate. Hate crimes on campus ; Hillcrest ; Inclusivity ; LGBTQIA+ ; Marketing ; Pride Center 508 Early engagement with the Cross-Cultural Center (then known as the Multicultural Programs office) Franklin discusses working with Multicultural Programs to gather resources for the LGBTQ+ student organization. Frankling describes the draw of the then Multicultural Center including its patrons and the space itself. American Indian Student Association ; Asian Pacific Islander Desi American ; Black Student Union ; California State University San Marcos ; California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Campus resources ; Community building ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Inclusion ; Movimentio Estudiantil Chicano de Azltlán ; Representation on campus ; Self-expression ; Vietnamese Student Association 722 Franklin becomes a peer educator at the Multicultural Center in Spring 2007. Franklin recalls working as a peer educator at the Multicultural Center (Cross-Cultural Center), and learning about student affairs as a career. Activism ; California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Marketing ; Peer educators 876 Programs and outreach at the Cross-Cultural Center. Franklin recalls being a &quot ; marketing machine&quot ; and peer educators working with their communities for outreach. Activism ; Campus community ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Identity ; Marketing ; Outreach 971 Understanding the under-served campus community. Franklin describes the allure of food in driving attendance to events. He also describes workshops dedicated to finding funding for student organization programming. California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Food insecurity 1070 Franklin's experience with discovering his cultural identity Franklin recalls his early childhood military family background and how that did not inform his identity, and speaks to how the Center assisted in helping him find that identity. Asian-American experience ; Community building ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Cultural expression ; Filipino-American experience ; Identity ; Inclusion 1156 The Cross-Cultural Center moves to a bigger and more visible location Franklin describes the Center moving to the breezeway of the Administrative Building (then Craven Hall), and what being in that space did for the Cross-Cultural Center. Franklin also recalls how the peer educators engaged students who hadn't been in the space previously. California State University San Marcos ; Campus activism ; Murals 1290 Food insecurity and demand for identity-specific spaces Franklin recalls when he was a student the issue of food insecurity on campus, and the need for a food pantry. Franklin also describes the growing demand for additional identity-focused spaces on campus. California State University San Marcos ; Food insecurity ; Pride Center ; Representation ; Women in Gender Equity Center 1437 Evolution of the Cross-Cultural Center Franklin offers his thoughts on how the Cross-Cultural Center has evolved and how he sees the Center evolving in the future, as well as how it coexists with other spaces.. Identity ; Marketing ; Representation 1582 Impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on Franklin's career Franklin explains the impact of the Cross-Cultural Center on his career, and how it informed his future educational and professional growth. Franklin also describes the benefits and challenges of working in higher education in California. California State University San Marcos ; Careers in higher education ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Higher education ; Student affairs 1712 Highlights from Franklin's time at the Cross-Cultural Center Franklin recalls facilitating the All People's Celebration, and working as a coordinator emergency hire where he evolved from a student to a young professional. Franklin also describes working on a mural near the Center. All People's Celebration ; Asher University ; California State University San Marcos-- Student Life and Leadership ; Cross-Cultural Center ; Murals 1945 Franklin returns to CSUSM in 2009 to work for Extended Learning Programs. Franklin recalls working for Extended Learning and working in Student Affairs, and discusses working in Student Affairs during the 2020 COVID-19 Pandemic. California State University San Marcos-- Extended Learning ; Covid-19 pandemic ; Higher education ; Professional experience ; Virtual learning mp4 Jay Franklin was a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM during the early days of the program and university. He was instrumental in the creation of many of the programs and early marketing campaigns for the center, and worked as a peer educator to provide what we would now call intersectional support for LGBTQIA students. Eventually, he made his way back to CSUSM, where he now works in the Dean of Student Affairs office. Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I&#039 ; m here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Jay Franklin here at the California State University San Marcos for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Wednesday, April 12th, 2023, and the time is 2:16. Hi, Jay. Uh, why don&#039 ; t you go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your early life and family. Franklin: Woo. Awesome. Jay Franklin, uh, associate director of new student and family programs. Um, early life, uh, let&#039 ; s see. I grew up military. My dad was in the Navy for 24 years, so every two to three years we moved around a lot. Um, but I was fortunate enough to stay for a significant amount of time in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Um, and then had the opportunity to move out to California in 1999. California is my birth state, so when that opportunity came up, I moved away from Virginia Beach. My entire family network is in Virginia, Virginia Beach, and I just wanted to start anew out here in San Diego. Meyer: Nice. So, what was your educational journey like? Franklin: The typical &quot ; Go to high school and you should go to college&quot ; . So I, I tried that route, or that was my original plan. My senior year, my junior year of high school, I was fortunate enough to get into a program that allowed me to go to beauty school, uh, cosmetology school. So I was able to use those elective units or those blocks of time to go to cosmetology school. So, by the time I graduated high school, I already had my cosmetology license. So, I went, I did the apply for college, uh, went to a local community college, Tidewater Community College in Virginia Beach, Virginia. And, realized as a full-time hair stylist, I was doing a lot like that whole typical, like, how many hours -- should I work full-time, part-time, go to school full-time, part-time? And, I did full-time both, and, of course that doesn&#039 ; t work out. And I felt as though I, in one of my classes, I&#039 ; ll never forget, my sociology instructor--professor--was sharing like how much they made. And I&#039 ; m like, you make that? And I&#039 ; m like, and you got your doctor whatever! And it just really was jarring and shocking for me because here I am, a professional hair stylist, uh, working in a, in a salon and also doing hair on the side. I was pulling in basically what that faculty member was saying was their salary. So I was like, why am I here? And it just wasn&#039 ; t a good fit. Um, so I didn&#039 ; t go-- I. I dropped out eventually. Actually, I, uh, history shows that I have a whole bunch of &quot ; WU&quot ; s [Withdrawal Unauthorized]. So I did the first semester, did great. Got A&#039 ; s and B&#039 ; s and, and A minus or something? Uh, and, and then my second semester I was like, that was when I encountered my sociology instructor and was basically sharing their, their salary. And I was like, I need to get outta here. So I just thought, just not showing up, you&#039 ; re done with class, and the, the university would just disenroll you and yeah, of course I&#039 ; ll disenroll you with &quot ; WU&quot ; s, so, those are F&#039 ; s. And so my second semester at Tidewater Community College had a whole bunch of F&#039 ; s. Fast forward many years, at least a decade, and I started to see the number &quot ; 30,&quot ; my age was coming up as thirty. And I&#039 ; m like, oh my gosh, it&#039 ; s time to actually go back to school and get a career. And yeah, I have a great job doing hair, but that&#039 ; s a job. I really wanted to finish what I originally set out to do and go to college and get my bachelor&#039 ; s degree, and did it. So I went back to school and was a non-traditional student. Uh, I didn&#039 ; t want to go to SDSU, um, and was very adamant in not being, &quot ; hey, number 262 in the back row.&quot ; Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: I wanted to be a person, and found out that, uh, Cal State San Marcos was a brand-new school, smaller class sizes, and I, I didn&#039 ; t wanna leave San Diego. Worked so hard to get here and stay here. So, at that time, my partner and I were looking around for houses or condos to buy, and we just couldn&#039 ; t find anything in San Diego, &#039 ; cause it was 2004 and the prices were just going up and up and up. So, fortunately, fortunately the housing or condo prices in San Marcos were affordable at that time. So, and telling my counselor at City College, she&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Oh, yeah, that actually works out better for you when you apply because you&#039 ; ll be in the service area of Cal State San Marcos.&quot ; So it, it worked out. And I was able to come to Cal State San Marcos as an undergrad non-traditional student, in fall of 2005, been here ever since. I mean, I did leave for a little bit and, uh, I did my undergrad, my grad here, but there was a stint as soon as I finished my undergrad, I didn&#039 ; t wanna work in a salon and I wanted a job that leveraged my bachelor&#039 ; s degree and was lucky enough to get a job at Bridgepoint Education or Asher University, and was a matriculation coordinator-- basically a transcript evaluator. Um, did that for a couple months, I think almost a year. And then worked my way up to Articulation Specialist-- which is like assist.org, it&#039 ; s like your articulation specialist, uh, counselor transfer counselor 24/7-- and was able to do that for Asher University. And while at a Christmas party for an office at Cal State San Marcos-- my partner worked at Cal State San Marcos at that time, so I was attending his--- was a Christmas party and was sharing with the dean at that time what I did. And it just worked out that they were having an emergency position that they said, &quot ; Hey, you should apply!&quot ; And the rest is history, as I say, I apply and then have been here ever since. So I did have a, a gap in my Cal State San Marcos life of about a year and a half where I worked externally. But boomeranged back to come to Cal State San Marcos, Meyer: Everything comes back to-- Franklin: Totally, totally. Meyer: So, during your time at, at Cal State San Marcos, when you were an undergrad, how did you become aware of and become involved with the Cross-Cultural Center? Franklin: I love it. Okay. So, um, in 2005, I was a non-traditional student, so I knew that yes, the, the university has the mission statement, vision statement, campus core values, and I, I moved up from Hillcrest, so I was very out and comfortable with myself and eagerly looked for the student organization for the LGBTQ+ community, and discovered it and found it and joined their group and was like, &quot ; Look, we need to have some marketing. We need some banners, we need rebranding.&quot ; And I just, I just came, I, I wasn&#039 ; t a, a typical student. So I, I went to school and wanted to get the best out of my experience and basically became a marketing director for the student org, and then branded us and allowed us to get some visibility on campus because we wanted to increase our membership. And in that, I&#039 ; m gonna say either that fall or early that spring, uh, our banner for our student org was stolen. And I thought it was very odd that a university would lose or allow something like that to occur. And, I thought it was really jarring to be called &quot ; faggot&quot ; on campus. And it was just really jarring. It was, it was very strange. It really reminded me of growing up in Virginia Beach, Virginia with the 700 Club in the background, Christian Coalition [of America]-- campus, yes, is supposed to be inclusive, and I just didn&#039 ; t get that vibe. I also was very comfortable in my being gay and championing the LGBTQ+ community causes up here. And to have our banner stolen, I immediately, like, &quot ; Who do I go to?&quot ; And our student org was like, &quot ; Oh my gosh, what are we gonna do?&quot ; I&#039 ; m like, the university has protocols, there&#039 ; s rules and policies, so we&#039 ; ll just work our way up to food chain to find out who&#039 ; s responsible for our safety and like, what, what can be done about this banner being stolen? And that was how I encountered Student Life and Leadership, because our student organization is founded out of Student Life and Leadership, so they were responsible for the student organization. And then it also allowed me to, out of SLL-- Student Life and leadership-- it also allowed me to encounter the Multicultural Programs Office or the Cross-Cultural Center, as it was slowly evolving into -- So, that was my first encounter, was like, &quot ; Hey, what&#039 ; s going on?&quot ; Like, our student org didn&#039 ; t even know that the Cross-Cultural Center or the Multicultural Programs Office existed. So it was an opportunity for me to learn more about multicultural programs and the Cross-Cultural Center, but it also, uh, was allowed the student org to gain additional information and resources. So that&#039 ; s how we encountered it. That&#039 ; s how I personally discovered it. Meyer: So, what was the role of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time? I understand that it was like the university just starting out. Did it have more leeway or, or sway? Franklin: Um, I don&#039 ; t, I wouldn&#039 ; t say more leeway or sway. It was just a, to be honest, it was the reason why I was drawn into the space is there was, there were folks that looked like me, so it was predominantly Filipino or Asian, the folks that hung out in the center or the-- it was really a oversized closet, I want to say, like, as big as this room that we&#039 ; re in. So, it was a small closet, and a conference room, and it was filled with people that looked like me. We had the same conversations about our identity groups, and it was just a really welcoming environment. I was like, wow, it&#039 ; s refreshing to be in here versus the external campus. I mean, back then my hair was platinum or purple or pink or cheetah spots. It was whatever I felt like, I was a professional hairstylist so my hair changed often. It was like, see-through, iridescent, like-- so, in that, in that space, I was able to just be myself. And then other students started sharing their stories and some students started coming out, and-- it was-- I, I wouldn&#039 ; t say there was like any sway or anything. It was just a spot that made me feel better. And then because I was in the center, more students were accessing the resources and, yeah. Our student org basically started leveraging the center-- Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: For resources for the student org, because Student Life and Leadership has resources for student orgs, but so does--the Cross-- or the Multicultural Programs, Cross-Cultural Center has resources. So, once I knew that those things were available, our student org definitely started leveraging them and, and holding space and, and using resources. Like we made, we came up with marketing campaigns, events to help not just our student org professionally develop in leadership, but also sharing some of our lessons learned with other student orgs, like, Black Student Union, American Indian Student Association, MEChA [Movimentio Estudiantil Chicano de Azltlán], APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American], or-- I&#039 ; m trying to remember all the other ones-- but Asian Pacific Islander student org, Vietnamese student org [Vietnamese Student Association]. So, all these different student orgs, their membership were students. And I felt really out of place because I was an older, non-traditional student, and I was pushing-- I wouldn&#039 ; t say pushing the envelope-- but I was just encouraging more leadership development, and sharing resources with students, saying, &quot ; These are things that you&#039 ; ve paid for, you can leverage them and use them to the benefit of not just your student org, but for you professionally and get some-- grow your skillset.&quot ; Meyer: Mm-hmm. So, I understand you became a peer educator because you were so motivated to like, keep helping other students learn about the things they could utilize on campus. Um, could you talk a little bit about the peer educator program? Franklin: Yeah. So there were, I wanna say five of us. Uh, I&#039 ; m looking at, let me look at my pictures. Meyer: No, that&#039 ; s totally fine. Franklin: There, there was Cheryl, Stephanie, Diana, myself, and Brittany, and that was May of 2007. I was just looking, referencing a picture of us as a group. As a peer educator, I kind of feel like, because I was a non-traditional student, I really looked at this as a job, as a-- I didn&#039 ; t know that student affairs was actually a career until encountering Student Life and Leadership in the Multicultural Programs. I was like, &quot ; This is a job?&quot ; Like, this is amazing! So, I was living the life as if I was already employed by the university and really took ownership and pride of being a peer educator-- Um, but, of course I wanted to ensure that we all shared the, the workload. So, each of us had a specialization. Mine was LGBTQ specific, the four other peer educators focused on their areas. I just took a bit more ownership of like, making sure that-- I, I wouldn&#039 ; t say I was a lead, but I just wanted to make sure that our, our projects were polished? And, when looking around at other student orgs and other peer educators on campus, I wanted to share all the resources, and the presentation of this is what Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center, this is the content we put out. It&#039 ; s branded, it has a, a similar look and feel. It didn&#039 ; t look hodgepodge. Like, this was years ago before the advent of Canva. Everybody loves Canva right now because templates galore and it all looks professional. Back then we didn&#039 ; t have it. So, the peer educators basically came up with our own template that we said, okay, this is how we&#039 ; re, the conversation was like, how do we make it look professional and not student org, and not just disjointed from every event to the next event? There was some side sort of cohesion, a template that looked like when you looked at a, a flyer or a poster, you knew, oh, that&#039 ; s a Cross-Cultural Center event. Meyer: Hmm. What kind of support and programmings were, were offered for students that got involved with the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] when the organization was still, you know, coming up when you were, when you were a peer educator. What kind of, like, outreach was taking place to the students? Franklin: Kinda outreach. Ooh, that&#039 ; s a good one. Uh, so the peer educators essentially were their own marketing machines. Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, each of our groups, we were leveraged, uh, to dip into our own communities-- Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, when it came to marketing efforts and how do we reach the greater campus body-- I mean, there was, I wanna say 7,400 students on campus at that time? 74[00] to 8,000 students. So, by being already a student leader in the LGBTQ group, our and each of the peer educators being members of their own, identity group, student orgs, it really helped the marketing efforts target those communities. And it was cross-pollination essentially. Like, everybody-- we synced our events to ensure that we weren&#039 ; t overlapping anybody else&#039 ; s events, so that we could pull our communities to each one of them so we could be strategic in our marketing efforts. Meyer: How did the Cross-Cultural Center help you further develop that sense of community and help others find it? I know you&#039 ; ve already touched on that a bit, but, um, yeah. Finding a community on campus-- Franklin: How did it help me find a community? Meyer: I mean, you, you already had, like you said, a community, but, how did-- how did you help bring other people into that in ways that they might not have been introduced to? Franklin: Perfect. Okay. Um, a good way of looking at it is ensuring that a lot of our events had food, because we knew that food draws students. So, one strategy was always going to the director of Student Life Leadership, was always asking for additional funds for &lt ; laughs&gt ; so we could buy pizza, hotdogs, to ensure our events had food, because we knew that food was the-- a driving motivator for students to attend anything. So, food was important. And then, money was another way of, of pulling in students that didn&#039 ; t leverage the Cross-Cultural Center or Student Life and Leadership was helping students-- like, we were doing workshops and helping students, obtain funding from-- the Cross-Cultural Center had funds, ASI [Associated Students Incorporated, student government] had funds, the Vice President of Student Affairs had funds, so there was like $500 pockets of money that you could apply for in fall or for spring, or for the entire academic year. So, we came up with workshops to help students apply for those programs, funding opportunities so that they could actually get money. So, we knew food was important and money was important. So, we held workshops, helped students actually like, oh, I&#039 ; ve never applied for money before for student org. We&#039 ; re like, &quot ; don&#039 ; t worry, we can help you walk through this process.&quot ; So, food and money was one way to bring in students that never knew that the Cross-Cultural Center existed, or even Student Life and Leadership existed. Meyer: What is the overall significance, in your opinion, of having a space like that, that champions, uh, underrepresented students on campus and gives them a place to be themselves and hold space? Franklin: Yeah, it was, it was a family experience. For me, I, I really, uh, didn&#039 ; t, as I grew up military, so every two to three years would move around. So, I really didn&#039 ; t have this whole Asian, Filipino, identity experience. But hanging out in the center really helped me come, come to peace or come to terms with my half-Filipino, half-Asian background. And it helped me find space. And then by being comfortable, I guess others, seeing myself being authentic allowed them to just be themselves. Like, it was a really family experience in a sense that when you walked into the center-- I was looking at some of the pictures from back of the day. Some students just like took off their shoes. Like when you talk about a family or cross-cultural experience, some at, when they go home, they take off their shoes before they enter their house. So, I thought it was the strangest and coolest thing. And, and looking back, I saw a picture where there was some students without their shoes on. I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Oh my gosh, I totally forgot about that.&quot ; So, I, it was a space for students to be themselves, and the more students that went into the Cross-Cultural Center to-- it always felt like there was a party. Like, there was a sort of celebration in the center, like we packed the space and, and, and not just packing the space, it was always fun. And when we moved from Craven Hall, now the Administrative Building, it&#039 ; s that small little conference room that&#039 ; s as big as this space. We moved into the breezeway of the administrative building, and the door into the Cross-Cultural Center was in the breezeway where all the murals are at, at Cal State San Marcos. So, whenever we were holding space and taking up space and having some dialogue, whenever the door was open, it echoed inside. I think it was like a strategic way of the director that time to put it in that space, because it was front and center. Everybody that walked through that hallway, the sound just increased because it was in a hallway-- a breezeway. And when people looked into the space and saw the fun you were having, it was-- the natural conversation was like, our question was like, &quot ; What&#039 ; s going on in there? And how could I join it?&quot ; So, it was always packed, it was always welcomed. The peer educators, as soon as somebody walked by, looked into the space, our, our goal was to engage with them immediately. So if you looked into the door of the Cross-Cultural Center, it was like, &quot ; Hi! Welcome into our space! We&#039 ; ve got this and we&#039 ; ve got that.&quot ; Just, it was always a welcoming and inclusive atmosphere, total family. Like if, if a student didn&#039 ; t know it was here, that meant they never visited Cougar Central or visited the Financial Aid Office. Like, in order to get to that, that office, that was one of the main thoroughfares at breezeway with the murals is where the party was happening. Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like some of the activism efforts were just getting kids in the door so they could learn and, and, yeah-- enjoy, enjoy the space if they previously hadn&#039 ; t felt it on campus before. Can you recount in an instance when something you learned at the CCC, maybe it opened your eyes to something you hadn&#039 ; t thought about before, something just hadn&#039 ; t crossed your mind? Some-- um-- maybe some issue you hadn&#039 ; t realized that underrepresented students were having on campus, that you just hadn&#039 ; t-- Franklin: The, the food, the-- definitely the food insecurity. &lt ; removing glasses&gt ; I&#039 ; m, I&#039 ; m not gonna be looking at my phone or a laptop. Food insecurity was a big one for me. As a non-traditional student, I didn&#039 ; t have that worry. I didn&#039 ; t have that concern. That was early conversations of like, &quot ; Where&#039 ; s our food pantry? Other campuses have food pantries, but not Cal State San Marcos.&quot ; So, for me, I thought that was really odd that here we are, we have a space for students, but we don&#039 ; t have, like, a food pantry to allow students to get access to it. So that was, goes back to my earlier response of like, have food and students will show up. So, knowing that students need food, and holding events to that had food was a major draw. But yeah, it was a big shocker to find out that food insecurity was a big deal back then. I mean, it still is now. There is a food pantry and there&#039 ; s food pantries all around. But, back then it was like, yeah, we know it&#039 ; s a problem, but that&#039 ; s so new and our campus is still growing, that we can only focus on this one space. And yes, the Cross-Cultural Center was one space, and there were other many spaces on campus, but because it was this Cross-Cultural Center and filled with-- the line back then was like first one in gets to own the space, so the Asian identified groups would pack the room and they&#039 ; re like, &quot ; This is the Asian Center!&quot ; And I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; This is a Cross-Cultural Center.&quot ; Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, the conversation also started to get out where students were like, &quot ; Well, where&#039 ; s my center?&quot ; and &quot ; Where&#039 ; s my center?&quot ; and Pride Center of the-- like, LGBT community was like, &quot ; Where&#039 ; s our center?&quot ; And, it just started, &quot ; Where&#039 ; s the Women in Gender Equity Center?&quot ; So, because of the fun and the joy that was a party-like atmosphere, other, other students were like, &quot ; Uh, where&#039 ; s my space?&quot ; And, so, that was a bit jarring for a campus from my perspective to not have all spaces, but also no time and place-- like, the university was still pretty young. Like, campuses just don&#039 ; t pop up and have everything all at once. It has to be responsive to the community that evolves and grows there. And Cal State San Marcos has done that. Meyer: Right. Wait for the community to ask for what they need rather than just tell them what they need. Franklin: Yep. Meyer: What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with these other centers? Franklin: I, it&#039 ; s-- Meyer: It&#039 ; s a, it&#039 ; s a hard question, yeah-- Franklin: Yeah. So, because they&#039 ; re all, all these different centers are very specific to an identity group. The Cross-Cultural Center is -- I don&#039 ; t know if they would take the lead or, um, I don&#039 ; t know. It&#039 ; s a, it&#039 ; s a central hub that-- and the first center that, it&#039 ; s been here. Just because it&#039 ; s been here the longest doesn&#039 ; t mean it has to stay that way. So, watching it evolve and grow, and how it collaborates with other centers has been really important. So, I don&#039 ; t know. I don&#039 ; t know if that answers your question. Meyer: Mm-hmm. No, it does. It does, yeah. Franklin: Once its role, its-- Meyer: There&#039 ; s no right answer to the question. Yeah. Yeah. It&#039 ; s exactly-- building off that, what direction do you think the CCC should grow in? What, what areas do you see room for improvement in students that could be better served, or maybe--- you know, yeah. Franklin: Yeah. It&#039 ; s one of those, like-- oh, it&#039 ; s almost like a innovation hub-- Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And a business incubator. So, when you look at it from... I&#039 ; m going, I&#039 ; m gonna dip back into the marketing hat--- it starts off as an incubator group for students that want to form community, and, once that group has been given the energy and the resources that they need, and the-- the sense of, you can advocate for yourself and advocate--. and that advocation gets you, it doesn&#039 ; t get you a center, but it helps consolidate your voice so that you can move the students and empower the students to ask and request for space. So, yeah, I, I look at the Cross-Cultural Center as like a, a identity group incubation center. So, students leverage a space, become empowered, and then get what they need and go up to leadership or to student leadership-- ASI--- and say, &quot ; Hey, look, where&#039 ; s our space? Why don&#039 ; t we have it X, Y, and Z? Like, we&#039 ; ve been asking for it for this long.&quot ; Like, it&#039 ; s a, it&#039 ; s a great spot to start. Meyer: I understand you still work in--- of course, you work on Cal State San Marcos campus, and I just wanted to ask about what ways that your experience and your time with the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] helped shape your outlook and your professional life? Franklin: Uh, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I wouldn&#039 ; t have known that student affairs was a job. Meyer: Yeah. Franklin: And, yeah, so Cross-Cultural Center really impacted my career trajectory. I, I didn&#039 ; t know that this, I didn&#039 ; t--- when I went to Cal State San Marcos, I did not know that you could work in higher education. And I didn&#039 ; t know that was even a major. And, there&#039 ; s an entire master&#039 ; s degree around student affairs, and I&#039 ; m like, this is cool. I myself didn&#039 ; t go that route because I was already a non-traditional student. I came with a skill set that I would&#039 ; ve already learned in the student affairs master&#039 ; s program. I stayed at Cal State San Marcos, and I got a master&#039 ; s of education and just made it my own and focused on LGBT-specific stuff. But, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I would not have known that there&#039 ; s a student affairs professional career. I wouldn&#039 ; t have known to actually work in higher education. And then this whole concept of like, you&#039 ; re a state employee. Like, I didn&#039 ; t-- like when I originally said, &quot ; Oh, gosh, I&#039 ; m about to be 30,&quot ; it&#039 ; s--- &quot ; I need to look for retirement!&quot ; I didn&#039 ; t know that working for the state of California, the retirement is, like, this unicorn that doesn&#039 ; t exist anymore. So, like, private businesses don&#039 ; t even offer half of which you get as a state employee. And, and that comes with a, a rub as well, because when you&#039 ; re a new professional in, student affairs or just in in higher education, you have to, you have to put in your, your dues and start at the bottom and work your way up, learn the skillsets, apply for another job if you see one that better fits you grow within your role. But all of those things I would&#039 ; ve never known about had it not been for the Cross-Cultural Center. So, for me, it really had a huge impact on my personal life and professional career as well. Meyer: I understand that you and a lot of the peer educators became really good friends, and I was just wondering if either with them or with other students at the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center], if there&#039 ; s any like, great memories of the retreats or any of the events that you wanted to share, or just talk about. Franklin: Ooh, great events. Facilitating All People&#039 ; s Celebration was always a, fun-- just because it was a culminating award ceremony to recognize other student leaders on campus for various social justice awards. That was really cool. A big one for me was, and I still see it today, is my first professional role in the Cross-Cultural Center. There was a gap in between my undergrad and my master&#039 ; s program. There was a, a, a gap in professional service. So basically, the director or the co-direct, uh, assistant director at the time of the Cross-Cultural Center had left, no longer worked for the university. And the director of, Student Life, the leadership said, &quot ; Hey, uh, because you&#039 ; re super engaged as a peer educator and you finally finished your undergrad, we could-- there&#039 ; s this emergency hire position that we could hire you for three months or six months, but it ends at six months.&quot ; There&#039 ; s, there&#039 ; s no, we&#039 ; re--- we just need you to hold the spot, keep the seat warm, and keep the processes and the function of the Cross-Cultural Center moving forward because you know all the peer educators and you&#039 ; ve been in this role-- and a lot of the peer educators graduated and a new set came in. But the ones that had didn&#039 ; t graduate that were there, it was a really good opportunity for a good three to six months to be engaged in the student work where I evolved from student to young professional. And a big event that I had to do was create this mural, and I don&#039 ; t know how many panels it was, but it was maybe a hundred different pieces. And it was this giant picture, and it was divided into little one-foot-by-one-foot squares, or 12-inch-by-12-inch squares. And it made this huge mural and one giant design, but everybody got a one-foot-by-one-foot portion of it, and they got to paint it and add their own flare to the image. Because, once pulled back together, it would show a, a great--- it was like a kaleidoscope of all kinds of different perspectives, even though we knew it was one giant mural but everybody had their own little one-foot-by-one-foot square to add their own flavor and to add their own, this is Jay&#039 ; s square, or this was Stephanie&#039 ; s square. It was really a fun experience, to do a mural that&#039 ; s still on campus. And I see it, while it might not be in the Cross-Cultural Center, I&#039 ; ve watched this mural move from office, or Dean&#039 ; s conference room to Dean&#039 ; s conference room, and it&#039 ; s being used as backdrops for, for pictures around campus. So I think it&#039 ; s just so neat to see, being a part of the start, that it doesn&#039 ; t end, like, the-- I&#039 ; ve left my mark, or the peer educators have left their mark, and that, that thing, that mural is still being leveraged today. It&#039 ; s just pretty awesome. Meyer: That&#039 ; s really cool. So you were, you were basically an interim director? For a little while? Franklin: I, I wouldn&#039 ; t say a director-- Meyer: Program lead or something? Franklin: Coordinator. Meyer: Coordinator. Okay. Franklin: And yeah, I like to say, &quot ; Well, the director, the associate director left on the--&quot ; of course, no. Titles mean nothing. Meyer: Yeah. Franklin: But it was-- I, I definitely enjoyed that first experience in Student Affairs. And once I got into Student Affairs and that six months ended, it coincided with me getting hired at Asher University. And-- that is not student affairs, it was just transcript analysis. And then, coming back to Cal State San Marcos in fall of [20]09, working for Extended Learning, the self-support unit of the university, they don&#039 ; t receive any state funds. And it was ten-- a decade of my experience was in self-support. And then, when the pandemic hit, my skillset got repurposed, and off to Student Affairs I went, and now I&#039 ; m back in Student Affairs. So it&#039 ; s like, really full circle again, like yeah. It&#039 ; s pretty wild. Meyer: Yeah. So, um, I know it&#039 ; s not related to the Cross-Cultural Center, but could you talk a little bit about directing Student Affairs during the pandemic? Franklin: Yeah. Uh, it was, I was basically supporting the director, the inaugural director of the Success Coaching Program and Office of Coaching Success. And, it was basically-- my skillset was leveraging a database to match 1500-plus students with-- I want to say-- eighteen success coaches? We&#039 ; re a unionized environment, so, we had full-time staff, half-time staff and quarter-time staff. We had 1500 incoming first-year students that we needed to engage with and connect that student to Cal State San Marcos, even though we were in a virtual environment. So, leveraging technology appropriately. We sent text messages, of course, we called and sent emails, but as we know for sure, students or students in general don&#039 ; t read emails and they didn&#039 ; t know pick up calls from people that they don&#039 ; t know. So, sending memes to students to get them engaged, and we knew what the life cycle was like, because there&#039 ; s only sixteen weeks in a semester and we knew of certain in intervals in the semester, students like need to fill out their financial aid, meet with an academic advisor, check in to see how you&#039 ; re doing, how are they engaging or finding a sense of community. So, it goes back to that community feeling. While it might not be a Cross-Cultural Center specific, engaging in with a student to help them find their, their sense of being, or their sense of place, or their sense of connection-- connecting to community was what we were able to do when the pandemic hit, helping the students find their place. Even though it was virtual. Meyer: It sounds like you&#039 ; ve always been doing that. Yeah. It sounds like you&#039 ; ve been doing that since the first day you set foot on campus, just helping other students find their place. That&#039 ; s really cool. Well, I just wanted to thank you so much for, for coming in and doing this interview and, yeah, that&#039 ; s all the questions I have for today. But, thank you! Franklin: That&#039 ; s awesome. Thank you for having me. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=FranklinJay_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-12.xml FranklinJay_MeyerMadeleine_2023-04-12.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Franklin, Jay. Interview April 12, 2023. Description An account of the resource Jay Franklin was a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM during the early days of the program and university. He was instrumental in the creation of many of the programs and early marketing campaigns for the center, and worked as a peer educator to provide what we would now call intersectional support for LGBTQ+ students. Eventually, he made his way back to CSUSM, where he now works in the Dean of Student Affairs office. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-026 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. Student Affairs Education, Higher Human rights LGBTQ+ activism Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-12 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jay Franklin Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madeleine Meyer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Virginia Beach (Va.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Jay Franklin Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Cross-Cultural Center oral history project CSUSM history LGBTQIA+ experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e62624fb1bdfebb2252e2ea132ab1d6e.pdf a47afc957202c225a5327331d4f153df PDF Text Text JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 Meyer: My name is Madeleine Meyer and I'm here today in the Kellogg Library interviewing Jay Franklin here at the California State University San Marcos for the Cross-Cultural Center Oral History Project. The date is Wednesday, April 12th, 2023, and the time is 2:16. Hi, Jay. Uh, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your early life and family. Franklin: Woo. Awesome. Jay Franklin, uh, associate director of new student and family programs. Um, early life, uh, let's see. I grew up military. My dad was in the Navy for 24 years, so every two to three years we moved around a lot. Um, but I was fortunate enough to stay for a significant amount of time in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Um, and then had the opportunity to move out to California in 1999. California is my birth state, so when that opportunity came up, I moved away from Virginia Beach. My entire family network is in Virginia, Virginia Beach, and I just wanted to start anew out here in San Diego. Meyer: Nice. So, what was your educational journey like? Franklin: The typical ”Go to high school and you should go to college”. So I, I tried that route, or that was my original plan. My senior year, my junior year of high school, I was fortunate enough to get into a program that allowed me to go to beauty school, uh, cosmetology school. So I was able to use those elective units or those blocks of time to go to cosmetology school. So, by the time I graduated high school, I already had my cosmetology license. So, I went, I did the apply for college, uh, went to a local community college, Tidewater Community College in Virginia Beach, Virginia. And, realized as a full-time hair stylist, I was doing a lot like that whole typical, like, how many hours -- should I work full-time, parttime, go to school full-time, part-time? And, I did full-time both, and, of course that doesn't work out. And I felt as though I, in one of my classes, I'll never forget, my sociology instructor—professor--was sharing like how much they made. And I'm like, you make that? And I'm like, and you got your doctor whatever! And it just really was jarring and shocking for me because here I am, a professional hair stylist, uh, working in a, in a salon and also doing hair on the side. I was pulling in basically what that faculty member was saying was their salary. So I was like, why am I here? And it just wasn't a good fit. Um, so I didn't go-- I. I dropped out eventually. Actually, I, uh, history shows that I have a whole bunch of “WU”s [Withdrawal Unauthorized]. So I did the first semester, did great. Got A's and B's and, and A minus or something? Uh, and, and then my second semester I was like, that was when I encountered my sociology instructor and was basically sharing their, their salary. And I was like, I need to get outta here. So I just thought, just not showing up, you're done with class, and the, the university would just disenroll you and yeah, of course I'll disenroll you with “WU”s, so, those are F’s. And so my second semester at Tidewater Community College had a whole bunch of F's. Fast forward many years, at least a decade, and I started to see the number “30,” my age was coming up as thirty. And I'm like, oh my gosh, it's time to actually go back to school and get a career. And yeah, I have a great job doing hair, but that's a job. I really wanted to finish what I originally set out to do and go to college and get my bachelor's degree, and did it. So I went back to school and was a nontraditional student. Uh, I didn't want to go to SDSU, um, and was very adamant in not being, “hey, number 262 in the back row.” Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 1 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: I wanted to be a person, and found out that, uh, Cal State San Marcos was a brand-new school, smaller class sizes, and I, I didn't wanna leave San Diego. Worked so hard to get here and stay here. So, at that time, my partner and I were looking around for houses or condos to buy, and we just couldn't find anything in San Diego, ‘cause it was 2004 and the prices were just going up and up and up. So, fortunately, fortunately the housing or condo prices in San Marcos were affordable at that time. So, and telling my counselor at City College, she's like, “Oh, yeah, that actually works out better for you when you apply because you'll be in the service area of Cal State San Marcos.” So it, it worked out. And I was able to come to Cal State San Marcos as an undergrad non-traditional student, in fall of 2005, been here ever since. I mean, I did leave for a little bit and, uh, I did my undergrad, my grad here, but there was a stint as soon as I finished my undergrad, I didn't wanna work in a salon and I wanted a job that leveraged my bachelor's degree and was lucky enough to get a job at Bridgepoint Education or Asher University, and was a matriculation coordinator-- basically a transcript evaluator. Um, did that for a couple months, I think almost a year. And then worked my way up to Articulation Specialist-- which is like assist.org, it's like your articulation specialist, uh, counselor transfer counselor 24/7-- and was able to do that for Asher University. And while at a Christmas party for an office at Cal State San Marcos-- my partner worked at Cal State San Marcos at that time, so I was attending his--- was a Christmas party and was sharing with the dean at that time what I did. And it just worked out that they were having an emergency position that they said, “Hey, you should apply!” And the rest is history, as I say, I apply and then have been here ever since. So I did have a, a gap in my Cal State San Marcos life of about a year and a half where I worked externally. But boomeranged back to come to Cal State San Marcos, Meyer: Everything comes back to-Franklin: Totally, totally. Meyer: So, during your time at, at Cal State San Marcos, when you were an undergrad, how did you become aware of and become involved with the Cross-Cultural Center? Franklin: I love it. Okay. So, um, in 2005, I was a non-traditional student, so I knew that yes, the, the university has the mission statement, vision statement, campus core values, and I, I moved up from Hillcrest, so I was very out and comfortable with myself and eagerly looked for the student organization for the LGBTQ+ community, and discovered it and found it and joined their group and was like, “Look, we need to have Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 2 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 some marketing. We need some banners, we need rebranding.” And I just, I just came, I, I wasn't a, a typical student. So I, I went to school and wanted to get the best out of my experience and basically became a marketing director for the student org, and then branded us and allowed us to get some visibility on campus because we wanted to increase our membership. And in that, I'm gonna say either that fall or early that spring, uh, our banner for our student org was stolen. And I thought it was very odd that a university would lose or allow something like that to occur. And, I thought it was really jarring to be called “faggot” on campus. And it was just really jarring. It was, it was very strange. It really reminded me of growing up in Virginia Beach, Virginia with the 700 Club in the background, Christian Coalition [of America]… campus, yes, is supposed to be inclusive, and I just didn't get that vibe. I also was very comfortable in my being gay and championing the LGBTQ+ community causes up here. And to have our banner stolen, I immediately, like, “Who do I go to?” And our student org was like, “Oh my gosh, what are we gonna do?” I'm like, the university has protocols, there's rules and policies, so we'll just work our way up to food chain to find out who's responsible for our safety and like, what, what can be done about this banner being stolen? And that was how I encountered Student Life and Leadership, because our student organization is founded out of Student Life and Leadership, so they were responsible for the student organization. And then it also allowed me to, out of SLL-- Student Life and leadership-- it also allowed me to encounter the Multicultural Programs Office or the Cross-Cultural Center, as it was slowly evolving into … So, that was my first encounter, was like, “Hey, what's going on?” Like, our student org didn't even know that the Cross-Cultural Center or the Multicultural Programs Office existed. So it was an opportunity for me to learn more about multicultural programs and the Cross-Cultural Center, but it also, uh, was allowed the student org to gain additional information and resources. So that's how we encountered it. That's how I personally discovered it. Meyer: So, what was the role of the Cross-Cultural Center at the time? I understand that it was like the university just starting out. Did it have more leeway or, or sway? Franklin: Um, I don't, I wouldn't say more leeway or sway. It was just a, to be honest, it was the reason why I was drawn into the space is there was, there were folks that looked like me, so it was predominantly Filipino or Asian, the folks that hung out in the center or the-- it was really a oversized closet, I want to say, like, as big as this room that we're in. So, it was a small closet, and a conference room, and it was filled with people that looked like me. We had the same conversations about our identity groups, and it was just a really welcoming environment. I was like, wow, it's refreshing to be in here versus the external campus. I mean, back then my hair was platinum or purple or pink or cheetah spots. It was whatever I felt like, I was a professional hairstylist so my hair changed often. It was like, see-through, iridescent, like— so, in that, in that space, I was able to just be myself. And then other students started sharing their stories and some students started coming out, and… it was… I, I wouldn't say there was like any sway or anything. It was just a spot that made me feel better. And then because I was in the center, more students were accessing the resources and, yeah. Our student org basically started leveraging the center-Meyer: Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 3 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 Mm-hmm. Franklin: For resources for the student org, because Student Life and Leadership has resources for student orgs, but so does—the Cross-- or the Multicultural Programs, Cross-Cultural Center has resources. So, once I knew that those things were available, our student org definitely started leveraging them and, and holding space and, and using resources. Like we made, we came up with marketing campaigns, events to help not just our student org professionally develop in leadership, but also sharing some of our lessons learned with other student orgs, like, Black Student Union, American Indian Student Association, MEChA [Movimentio Estudiantil Chicano de Azltlán], APIDA [Asian Pacific Islander Desi American], or-- I'm trying to remember all the other ones-- but Asian Pacific Islander student org, Vietnamese student org [Vietnamese Student Association]. So, all these different student orgs, their membership were students. And I felt really out of place because I was an older, non-traditional student, and I was pushing-- I wouldn't say pushing the envelope-- but I was just encouraging more leadership development, and sharing resources with students, saying, “These are things that you've paid for, you can leverage them and use them to the benefit of not just your student org, but for you professionally and get some-- grow your skillset.” Meyer: Mm-hmm. So, I understand you became a peer educator because you were so motivated to like, keep helping other students learn about the things they could utilize on campus. Um, could you talk a little bit about the peer educator program? Franklin: Yeah. So there were, I wanna say five of us. Uh, I'm looking at, let me look at my pictures. Meyer: No, that's totally fine. Franklin: There, there was Cheryl, Stephanie, Diana, myself, and Brittany, and that was May of 2007. I was just looking, referencing a picture of us as a group. As a peer educator, I kind of feel like, because I was a non-traditional student, I really looked at this as a job, as a-- I didn't know that student affairs was actually a career until encountering Student Life and Leadership in the Multicultural Programs. I was like, “This is a job?” Like, this is amazing! So, I was living the life as if I was already employed by the university and really took ownership and pride of being a peer educator… Um, but, of course I wanted to ensure that we all shared the, the workload. So, each of us had a specialization. Mine was LGBTQ specific, the four other peer educators focused on their areas. I just took a bit more ownership of like, making sure that… I, I wouldn't say I was a lead, but I just wanted to make sure that our, our projects were polished? And, when looking around at other student orgs and other peer educators on campus, I wanted to share all the resources, and the presentation of this is what Multicultural Programs or Cross-Cultural Center, this is the content we put Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 4 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 out. It's branded, it has a, a similar look and feel. It didn't look hodgepodge. Like, this was years ago before the advent of Canva. Everybody loves Canva right now because templates galore and it all looks professional. Back then we didn't have it. So, the peer educators basically came up with our own template that we said, okay, this is how we're, the conversation was like, how do we make it look professional and not student org, and not just disjointed from every event to the next event? There was some side sort of cohesion, a template that looked like when you looked at a, a flyer or a poster, you knew, oh, that's a Cross-Cultural Center event. Meyer: Hmm. What kind of support and programmings were, were offered for students that got involved with the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] when the organization was still, you know, coming up when you were, when you were a peer educator. What kind of, like, outreach was taking place to the students? Franklin: Kinda outreach. Ooh, that's a good one. Uh, so the peer educators essentially were their own marketing machines. Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, each of our groups, we were leveraged, uh, to dip into our own communities— Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: So, when it came to marketing efforts and how do we reach the greater campus body-- I mean, there was, I wanna say 7,400 students on campus at that time? 74[00] to 8,000 students. So, by being already a student leader in the LGBTQ group, our and each of the peer educators being members of their own, identity group, student orgs, it really helped the marketing efforts target those communities. And it was cross-pollination essentially. Like, everybody-- we synced our events to ensure that we weren't overlapping anybody else's events, so that we could pull our communities to each one of them so we could be strategic in our marketing efforts. Meyer: How did the Cross-Cultural Center help you further develop that sense of community and help others find it? I know you've already touched on that a bit, but, um, yeah. Finding a community on campus-Franklin: How did it help me find a community? Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 5 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 Meyer: I mean, you, you already had, like you said, a community, but, how did-- how did you help bring other people into that in ways that they might not have been introduced to? Franklin: Perfect. Okay. Um, a good way of looking at it is ensuring that a lot of our events had food, because we knew that food draws students. So, one strategy was always going to the director of Student Life Leadership, was always asking for additional funds for <laughs> so we could buy pizza, hotdogs, to ensure our events had food, because we knew that food was the-- a driving motivator for students to attend anything. So, food was important. And then, money was another way of, of pulling in students that didn't leverage the Cross-Cultural Center or Student Life and Leadership was helping students-- like, we were doing workshops and helping students, obtain funding from-- the Cross-Cultural Center had funds, ASI [Associated Students Incorporated, student government] had funds, the Vice President of Student Affairs had funds, so there was like $500 pockets of money that you could apply for in fall or for spring, or for the entire academic year. So, we came up with workshops to help students apply for those programs, funding opportunities so that they could actually get money. So, we knew food was important and money was important. So, we held workshops, helped students actually like, oh, I've never applied for money before for student org. We're like, “don't worry, we can help you walk through this process.” So, food and money was one way to bring in students that never knew that the Cross-Cultural Center existed, or even Student Life and Leadership existed. Meyer: What is the overall significance, in your opinion, of having a space like that, that champions, uh, underrepresented students on campus and gives them a place to be themselves and hold space? Franklin: Yeah, it was, it was a family experience. For me, I, I really, uh, didn't, as I grew up military, so every two to three years would move around. So, I really didn't have this whole Asian, Filipino, identity experience. But hanging out in the center really helped me come, come to peace or come to terms with my halfFilipino, half-Asian background. And it helped me find space. And then by being comfortable, I guess others, seeing myself being authentic allowed them to just be themselves. Like, it was a really family experience in a sense that when you walked into the center-- I was looking at some of the pictures from back of the day. Some students just like took off their shoes. Like when you talk about a family or crosscultural experience, some at, when they go home, they take off their shoes before they enter their house. So, I thought it was the strangest and coolest thing. And, and looking back, I saw a picture where there was some students without their shoes on. I'm like, “Oh my gosh, I totally forgot about that.” So, I, it was a space for students to be themselves, and the more students that went into the Cross-Cultural Center to… it always felt like there was a party. Like, there was a sort of celebration in the center, like we packed the space and, and, and not just packing the space, it was always fun. And when we moved from Craven Hall, now the Administrative Building, it‘s that small little conference room that's as big as this space. We moved into the breezeway of the administrative building, and the door into the CrossCultural Center was in the breezeway where all the murals are at, at Cal State San Marcos. Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 6 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 So, whenever we were holding space and taking up space and having some dialogue, whenever the door was open, it echoed inside. I think it was like a strategic way of the director that time to put it in that space, because it was front and center. Everybody that walked through that hallway, the sound just increased because it was in a hallway-- a breezeway. And when people looked into the space and saw the fun you were having, it was-- the natural conversation was like, our question was like, “What's going on in there? And how could I join it?” So, it was always packed, it was always welcomed. The peer educators, as soon as somebody walked by, looked into the space, our, our goal was to engage with them immediately. So if you looked into the door of the Cross-Cultural Center, it was like, “Hi! Welcome into our space! We’ve got this and we've got that.” Just, it was always a welcoming and inclusive atmosphere, total family. Like if, if a student didn't know it was here, that meant they never visited Cougar Central or visited the Financial Aid Office. Like, in order to get to that, that office, that was one of the main thoroughfares at breezeway with the murals is where the party was happening. Meyer: Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like some of the activism efforts were just getting kids in the door so they could learn and, and, yeah-- enjoy, enjoy the space if they previously hadn't felt it on campus before. Can you recount in an instance when something you learned at the CCC, maybe it opened your eyes to something you hadn't thought about before, something just hadn't crossed your mind? Some-- um-maybe some issue you hadn't realized that underrepresented students were having on campus, that you just hadn't-Franklin: The, the food, the… definitely the food insecurity. <removing glasses> I'm, I'm not gonna be looking at my phone or a laptop. Food insecurity was a big one for me. As a non-traditional student, I didn't have that worry. I didn't have that concern. That was early conversations of like, “Where's our food pantry? Other campuses have food pantries, but not Cal State San Marcos.” So, for me, I thought that was really odd that here we are, we have a space for students, but we don't have, like, a food pantry to allow students to get access to it. So that was, goes back to my earlier response of like, have food and students will show up. So, knowing that students need food, and holding events to that had food was a major draw. But yeah, it was a big shocker to find out that food insecurity was a big deal back then. I mean, it still is now. There is a food pantry and there's food pantries all around. But, back then it was like, yeah, we know it's a problem, but that's so new and our campus is still growing, that we can only focus on this one space. And yes, the Cross-Cultural Center was one space, and there were other many spaces on campus, but because it was this Cross-Cultural Center and filled with-- the line back then was like first one in gets to own the space, so the Asian identified groups would pack the room and they're like, “This is the Asian Center!” And I'm like, “This is a Cross-Cultural Center.” Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 7 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 So, the conversation also started to get out where students were like, “Well, where's my center?” and “Where's my center?” and Pride Center of the-- like, LGBT community was like, “Where's our center?” And, it just started, “Where's the Women in Gender Equity Center?” So, because of the fun and the joy that was a party-like atmosphere, other, other students were like, “Uh, where's my space?” And, so, that was a bit jarring for a campus from my perspective to not have all spaces, but also no time and place-- like, the university was still pretty young. Like, campuses just don't pop up and have everything all at once. It has to be responsive to the community that evolves and grows there. And Cal State San Marcos has done that. Meyer: Right. Wait for the community to ask for what they need rather than just tell them what they need. Franklin: Yep. Meyer: What role do you see the Cross-Cultural Center playing as it coexists with these other centers? Franklin: I, it's-Meyer: It's a, it's a hard question, yeah-Franklin: Yeah. So, because they're all, all these different centers are very specific to an identity group. The CrossCultural Center is … I don't know if they would take the lead or, um, I don't know. It's a, it's a central hub that… and the first center that, it's been here. Just because it's been here the longest doesn't mean it has to stay that way. So, watching it evolve and grow, and how it collaborates with other centers has been really important. So, I don't know. I don't know if that answers your question. Meyer: Mm-hmm. No, it does. It does, yeah. Franklin: Once its role, its— Meyer: There's no right answer to the question. Yeah. Yeah. It's exactly… building off that, what direction do you think the CCC should grow in? What, what areas do you see room for improvement in students that could be better served, or maybe--- you know, yeah. Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 8 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 Franklin: Yeah. It's one of those, like… oh, it's almost like a innovation hub— Meyer: Mm-hmm. Franklin: And a business incubator. So, when you look at it from... I'm going, I'm gonna dip back into the marketing hat--- it starts off as an incubator group for students that want to form community, and, once that group has been given the energy and the resources that they need, and the-- the sense of, you can advocate for yourself and advocate…. and that advocation gets you, it doesn't get you a center, but it helps consolidate your voice so that you can move the students and empower the students to ask and request for space. So, yeah, I, I look at the Cross-Cultural Center as like a, a identity group incubation center. So, students leverage a space, become empowered, and then get what they need and go up to leadership or to student leadership— ASI--- and say, “Hey, look, where's our space? Why don't we have it X, Y, and Z? Like, we've been asking for it for this long.” Like, it's a, it's a great spot to start. Meyer: I understand you still work in--- of course, you work on Cal State San Marcos campus, and I just wanted to ask about what ways that your experience and your time with the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center] helped shape your outlook and your professional life? Franklin: Uh, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I wouldn't have known that student affairs was a job. Meyer: Yeah. Franklin: And, yeah, so Cross-Cultural Center really impacted my career trajectory. I, I didn't know that this, I didn't--- when I went to Cal State San Marcos, I did not know that you could work in higher education. And I didn't know that was even a major. And, there's an entire master's degree around student affairs, and I'm like, this is cool. I myself didn't go that route because I was already a non-traditional student. I came with a skill set that I would've already learned in the student affairs master's program. I stayed at Cal State San Marcos, and I got a master's of education and just made it my own and focused on LGBTspecific stuff. But, without the Cross-Cultural Center, I would not have known that there's a student affairs professional career. I wouldn't have known to actually work in higher education. And then this whole concept of like, you're a state employee. Like, I didn't-- like when I originally said, “Oh, gosh, I'm about to be 30,” it's--- “I need to look for retirement!” I didn't know that working for the state of California, the retirement is, like, this unicorn that doesn't exist anymore. So, like, private businesses Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 9 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 don't even offer half of which you get as a state employee. And, and that comes with a, a rub as well, because when you're a new professional in, student affairs or just in in higher education, you have to, you have to put in your, your dues and start at the bottom and work your way up, learn the skillsets, apply for another job if you see one that better fits you grow within your role. But all of those things I would've never known about had it not been for the Cross-Cultural Center. So, for me, it really had a huge impact on my personal life and professional career as well. Meyer: I understand that you and a lot of the peer educators became really good friends, and I was just wondering if either with them or with other students at the CCC [Cross-Cultural Center], if there's any like, great memories of the retreats or any of the events that you wanted to share, or just talk about. Franklin: Ooh, great events. Facilitating All People's Celebration was always a, fun-- just because it was a culminating award ceremony to recognize other student leaders on campus for various social justice awards. That was really cool. A big one for me was, and I still see it today, is my first professional role in the Cross-Cultural Center. There was a gap in between my undergrad and my master's program. There was a, a, a gap in professional service. So basically, the director or the co-direct, uh, assistant director at the time of the Cross-Cultural Center had left, no longer worked for the university. And the director of, Student Life, the leadership said, “Hey, uh, because you're super engaged as a peer educator and you finally finished your undergrad, we could-- there's this emergency hire position that we could hire you for three months or six months, but it ends at six months.” There's, there's no, we're--- we just need you to hold the spot, keep the seat warm, and keep the processes and the function of the Cross-Cultural Center moving forward because you know all the peer educators and you've been in this role-- and a lot of the peer educators graduated and a new set came in. But the ones that had didn't graduate that were there, it was a really good opportunity for a good three to six months to be engaged in the student work where I evolved from student to young professional. And a big event that I had to do was create this mural, and I don't know how many panels it was, but it was maybe a hundred different pieces. And it was this giant picture, and it was divided into little one-foot-by-one-foot squares, or 12-inch-by-12-inch squares. And it made this huge mural and one giant design, but everybody got a one-foot-by-one-foot portion of it, and they got to paint it and add their own flare to the image. Because, once pulled back together, it would show a, a great--- it was like a kaleidoscope of all kinds of different perspectives, even though we knew it was one giant mural but everybody had their own little one-foot-by-one-foot square to add their own flavor and to add their own, this is Jay's square, or this was Stephanie’s square. It was really a fun experience, to do a mural that's still on campus. And I see it, while it might not be in the Cross-Cultural Center, I've watched this mural move from office, or Dean's conference room to Dean's conference room, and it's being used as backdrops for, for pictures around campus. So I think it's just so neat to see, being a part of the start, that it doesn't end, like, the… I've left my mark, or the peer educators have left their mark, and that, that thing, that mural is still being leveraged today. It's just pretty awesome. Meyer: That's really cool. So you were, you were basically an interim director? For a little while? Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 10 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 Franklin: I, I wouldn't say a director-Meyer: Program lead or something? Franklin: Coordinator. Meyer: Coordinator. Okay. Franklin: And yeah, I like to say, “Well, the director, the associate director left on the…” of course, no. Titles mean nothing. Meyer: Yeah. Franklin: But it was-- I, I definitely enjoyed that first experience in Student Affairs. And once I got into Student Affairs and that six months ended, it coincided with me getting hired at Asher University. And… that is not student affairs, it was just transcript analysis. And then, coming back to Cal State San Marcos in fall of [20]09, working for Extended Learning, the self-support unit of the university, they don't receive any state funds. And it was ten-- a decade of my experience was in self-support. And then, when the pandemic hit, my skillset got repurposed, and off to Student Affairs I went, and now I'm back in Student Affairs. So it's like, really full circle again, like yeah. It's pretty wild. Meyer: Yeah. So, um, I know it's not related to the Cross-Cultural Center, but could you talk a little bit about directing Student Affairs during the pandemic? Franklin: Yeah. Uh, it was, I was basically supporting the director, the inaugural director of the Success Coaching Program and Office of Coaching Success. And, it was basically-- my skillset was leveraging a database to match 1500-plus students with-- I want to say-- eighteen success coaches? We’re a unionized environment, so, we had full-time staff, half-time staff and quarter-time staff. We had 1500 incoming first-year students that we needed to engage with and connect that student to Cal State San Marcos, even though we were in a virtual environment. So, leveraging technology appropriately. We sent text messages, of course, we called and sent emails, but as we know for sure, students or students in general don't read emails and they didn't know pick up calls from people that they don't know. So, sending Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 11 2023-05-01 �JAY FRANKLIN Transcript, Interview 2023-04-12 memes to students to get them engaged, and we knew what the life cycle was like, because there's only sixteen weeks in a semester and we knew of certain in intervals in the semester, students like need to fill out their financial aid, meet with an academic advisor, check in to see how you're doing, how are they engaging or finding a sense of community. So, it goes back to that community feeling. While it might not be a Cross-Cultural Center specific, engaging in with a student to help them find their, their sense of being, or their sense of place, or their sense of connection-- connecting to community was what we were able to do when the pandemic hit, helping the students find their place. Even though it was virtual. Meyer: It sounds like you've always been doing that. Yeah. It sounds like you've been doing that since the first day you set foot on campus, just helping other students find their place. That's really cool. Well, I just wanted to thank you so much for, for coming in and doing this interview and, yeah, that's all the questions I have for today. But, thank you! Franklin: That's awesome. Thank you for having me. Transcribed by Madeleine Meyer 12 2023-05-01 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Franklin, Jay. Interview transcript. April 12, 2023. Description An account of the resource Jay Franklin was a peer mentor at the Cross-Cultural Center at CSUSM during the early days of the program and university. He was instrumental in the creation of many of the programs and early marketing campaigns for the center, and worked as a peer educator to provide what we would now call intersectional support for LGBTQ+ students. Eventually, he made his way back to CSUSM, where he now works in the Dean of Student Affairs office. This oral history interview was generously funded through the Instructionally Related Activities Fund at California State University San Marcos. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jay Franklin Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Madeleine Meyer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-12 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Cross-Cultural Center California State University San Marcos. 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Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Judith Downie Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jeff Bagby OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Bagby, Jeff and Dande. Interview February 21, 2018 SC027-053 01:43:40 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM csusm Bagby Beer Company (Oceanside, Calif.) ; Brewers -- California -- San Diego County. ; Brewing industry -- California -- History. ; Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County. Jeff Bagby Dande Bagby Judith Downie wav BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.wav 2.0:|41(19)|72(13)|103(3)|151(11)|178(14)|221(15)|243(5)|289(4)|324(6)|347(16)|379(11)|410(7)|445(4)|482(14)|520(6)|552(9)|599(3)|638(13)|690(5)|734(8)|778(14)|816(6)|852(16)|878(9)|908(9)|934(6)|967(13)|1020(9)|1072(7)|1110(6)|1143(5)|1193(13)|1230(4)|1305(12)|1351(6)|1413(11)|1446(14)|1495(8)|1528(9)|1557(6)|1579(6)|1605(14)|1638(15)|1679(13)|1708(9)|1739(16)|1769(10)|1804(11)|1855(11)|1906(12)|1941(10)|1981(16) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/a2147e643ec83629c21ffe9df0d387b8.wav Other audio English oral history Bagby Beer Company emphasizes traditional style beers, a craft cocktail program, and a restaurant menu to complement their beers. Over the years, Bagby Beer featured highly admired and hard-to-find American and European beers such as Bierstadt Lagerhaus (Denver, CO) and Brasserie d’Orval (Belgium) to complement their lineup. Built on the site of a former car dealership (among other businesses), the Bagbys closely oversaw the construction from the ground up which opened in 2014. The site was also host to the Brewbies® cancer awareness beer festival (2015-2022) and the Low and Slow Lager Festival among other fund raising and educational events. Bagby Beer sold to Green Cheek Beer Company of Costa Mesa, CA in early 2024. &#13 ; &#13 ; Jeff and Dande Bagby are the founders and owners of Bagby Beer Company in Oceanside, CA. Holly Sweat is Publicist at Katalyst Public Relations. &#13 ; &#13 ; Jeff Bagby’s role was as head brewer and leading the on-site Beerleaders brewing education program. Jeff’s brewery experience includes Stone Brewing, White Labs, and Oggi’s Pizza and Brewing. His last brewery before opening Bagby Beer was Pizza Port, leading brewing operations for the chain from the Carlsbad location. During his time at Pizza Port, he led the team to win notable awards and medals such as the World Beer Cup and the Great American Beer Festival’s brewery and brewer awards multiple times. He is one of the most awarded San Diego region brewers, notably garnering more GABF Alpha King Challenge awards for best hoppiest beer in the United States than anyone to date (2005, 2010 and 2011.) He left Pizza Port in 2011 to devote his energy to finding a site for a brewery/restaurant in the San Diego North County beach area. With the sale of Bagby’s to Green Cheek Beer, he remains as the brewer and continues to focus on lagers and traditional styles. &#13 ; &#13 ; Dande Bagby worked as Director of Operations including marketing and customer experience. She designed much of the building. Her employment background includes the San Diego Zoological Society, education, environmental science, restaurant and craft beer bar management, and marketing and finance responsibilities for multimillion-dollar budgets at a Fortune 500 company. She remains active in the transition to Green Cheek Beer Company at this time. &#13 ; &#13 ; In their 2018 interview, Jeff and Dande discuss their introduction to craft beer ; homebrewing ; introduction of craft beer to the region ; Jeff’s entry into the profession in the late 1990s ; challenges and responsibilities of founding and building a brewery ; packaging and distribution ; charity work ; competitions, judging, and awards ; consumer education. Holly Sweat: Is this my copy or is this your copy? (Sweat referring to printed list of questions.) Judith Downie: You can certainly have that because I am just going to let Jeff and Dande, you know, tell me what they want because that is just a list of ideas. You certainly do not have to address anything if you feel like it is giving away company secrets or you are just not comfortable or you just forget about it and tell me something else equally interesting and informative. That’s great. I love to record what I can get. So, you know, it sounds Dande like you maybe got into this a little after Greg did. Excuse me, Greg--I just said Greg. After Jeff did. So maybe we start with Jeff talking about how did he become interested in beer or how did he get into the beer industry and--? Jeff Bagby: Okay. Yeah, so let's see. I started liking bitter beer, I don’t know, at high school, younger age. It just was something that my friends and I found--a couple of friends--who really liked the flavors. Liked the idea-- Downie: Now, were you in this area or where were you--? J Bagby: Yeah, I was born and raised in Encinitas. So, San Diego native. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: So yeah, around here. And, actually when I graduated high school, I bought that friend in particular a homebrew set for his birthday. And so, we both messed around and that was my first homebrewing foray, whatever you want to call it. Downie: Now where did you find your supplies for homebrewing up? J Bagby: Yeah, that is what I was going to say. So, you know, that's the age before the internet and cell phones and things of that nature. So, there is no-- Downie: Do you want to give me an approximate year? J Bagby: Uh, (19)93. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: (19)92, (19)93, (19)94, somewhere in there. And, so we had known a little bit, we had heard a little bit, we had tried to go and fish beer from establishments even though we were not of age yet. But at homebrew shop you can buy anything without an ID. So, at least back then you could. So, we Homebrew Mart in Solana Beach. That's where I first met Yusef (Cherney) was actually the one that sold me the kit. Then he went on obviously to do his thing. So, kind of a cool connect there and then they kind of keep happening as time goes on. But, yeah, so we just messed around really. I mean, we re-read things, read books. Talked to brewers when we could, when we traveled, things like that. We ended up going to school together where we got more into it. We were doing all-grain batches and keeping a beer on tap at our house all the time, as well as beers like Sierra Nevada (Brewing Co.), Anchor Steam (Beer), Original Pizza, Wicked, Red Nectar, some of the Sam(uel) Adams beers. I don’t, what else we could get our hands on that we felt was better. (laughs) Downie: Now was there a bottle shop anywhere nearby where you could (unintelligible)? J Bagby: There was a few. There was in Encinitas and downtown there was Cork and Keg (Cork and Keg Liquors). There was a couple in sort of the Kearny Mesa area that were known for having, you know, hundreds of bottles and typically they were not very good. But we did not necessarily know that at the time (Downie laughs) because we didn’t know what we were tasting and not tasting. Downie: Right. Yeah. J Bagby: I did not know that some of these beers, well, they'd been sitting around on these shelves warm for, you know, a couple of years. Some of them survived perfectly fine. And most of them, you know, like, “Oh, that's what that tastes like, that's kind of weird”. So, when we can find fresh things or more exciting flavors, that was obviously a fun thing. And yeah, just like, I think anybody did back in the nineties, when you found a new bottle of beer, you kept it, or you kind of talked about it and told your friends, “Hey, I tried this, blah-blah-blah.” It was, you know, I was rating beer before there was the internet, before there was, you know, these things that we are so attached to. So yeah, that is kind of where the appreciation started and, you know, throughout college, like I said, wherever, I would go and travel, try to seek out breweries, brew pubs, if it was possible to talk to a brewer and get, you know, whatever information I could, you know. “What kind of grain did you use this? What kind of hops are in this? What is your process for this? And, oh, what size system do you have?” And, you know, it was fun to do. And I was fun to go to cities that had older, richer brewing cultures than San Diego, you know? Back then there was not even probably ten breweries in San Diego at the time. Especially none that we had real easy access to. The easiest one for, for me, ended up being Solana Beach Pizza Port (Pizza Port Solana Beach). Just because I had met people there and met the brewers there. I went there all the time and were buying homebrew supplies from down the street. So, as it grew, you know, I finished school, came back home. I worked summers at the YMCA in Encinitas running their summer camp programs. Youth summer camp programs. So, I was heavily involved in that. But I always really liked--still liked beer. Still went to festivals and— Downie: What was your degree in? J Bagby: It was communications, social science degree. You know, honestly, I just wanted to get done in the school. It is not really my thing. Downie: But you completed it, so “Yay” for you. J Bagby: Yeah, yeah, I can say I have a degree. Whoop. (Dande Bagby laughs) So yeah, came back home, worked that job or some aspect of it for a summer. And then I was hoping to stay on. I’d had several--I've worked there since I was fifteen (years old). So, I had years of experience, knew the program, knew everything and anything about it. So, it was hoping, well, maybe this will be a full-time job, because the program had grown and grown and grown in the time that I've worked there. But they didn't have a position. Good old nonprofits. So, I started just looking for a job. I was living in Cardiff with some friends and I needed money. I needed something to do. So, through the YMCA, I had a commercial driver's license to drive kids around, drive big old buses. So, I looked into driving jobs because they paid pretty well. And I could probably get one quick. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: You know, the degree did nothing for me, so. (laughs) Dande Bagby: Well, it sounds like you didn’t really want it, too. J Bagby: Well, I mean, it's not like you go, like, what industry are you going to be like? “Yeah. I have a communications degree from UC Santa Barbara,” like there, so? How's that going to help us do blah-blah-blah. There was no technology jobs. There was no social media jobs. There was no— Downie: Exactly. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) I was, I kept going into radio or like news or— Downie: (speaking at the same time) But it would have taken time to get employed, and you were saying you needed work now. J Bagby: Exactly. Downie: Which is certainly understandable. J Bagby: Exactly. D Bagby: So, think about that before we get the degree. (laughs) Just kidding. (laughs) J Bagby: So let's pay attention and talk about themselves once it’s their turn. (all laugh) D Bagby: Just saying! J Bagby: So anyway, let's see, let's see, oh, came across the job, driving job for Stone Brewing Company. And I remembered that I had been in Solana Beach the very first night they'd ever poured a beer and I'd met Greg (Koch) and Steve (Wagner) and tasted the beer. And I was like, “Oh, this would be great.” You know, I remember them, it's cool to see that they, you know, are still going and are making beer and need a driver. So, I just interviewed with Greg and told him my whole story. And he was like, “Well, obviously you're super overqualified. (Downie laughs) So, you know, you have the job.” And it was fun. It was interesting to see some side of the bar and restaurant and beer industry that I'd never seen before. Learning some of the weird rules that are still in laws that are still in effect today and delivered beer. Drove beer truck for three months. And Steve and I were at a festival. I would always hang back after I was done and talk with the brewers and see what they were making and see what was coming on and things like that. And Steve was like, “Well, we need another body in the brewery. We need somebody else.” And I was like, “Yeah, sure. I'd love to.” I was like, “Who do I give these truckies to?” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So I actually found the guy that took my position as a driver. And he's still my Stone rep(resentative) today. Downie: Oh my gosh. J Bagby: Yeah. I still work for Stone in different capacity now, obviously. But yeah, he was a bartender at one of our accounts, he was actually at Pizza Port and he's like, “Oh, how's it going over there?” And “What's it like?” and I'm like, “Well, if you're interested, you could come check this out.” He was a bartender, so he could still bartend and do that. And so, yeah, he came over and I taught him the routes and boom, he was the driver and I moved into the brewery. So, I learned there, primarily from Lee Chase and Steve Wagner. Their methods to brewing, I'll say, which I still today, I think if you ask about mentors on here, definitely those two guys are some of the first. And they gave me a lot of introductions into people like Skip Virgilio, Yusef Cherney, Jack White, Chris White, Gina and Vince Marsaglia, where I spent hours in their restaurant. Several other people that are still working in beer today, and still active. And, you know, we all kind of, you know, kind of go, “Yep, you were there,” you know, when you have these people that have been open for five minutes. (Downie laughs) Not to say it's bad, but you know, it's nice to have that kind of a bond and that kind of a connection to people that remember when there wasn’t all the things that there are today. Downie: When it was a struggle. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yeah, big time. Downie: (speaking at the same time) I mean, not that it isn’t a struggle now to run a business and to start having all that, just to be in the first, the forefront of things. J Bagby: Oh yeah, there used to-- Downie: There is still some special barriers. J Bagby: When I was living in Cardiff, in driving for Stone and then actually working in the brewery for Stone, we would go to events like every weekend. Every Friday and Saturday night, you know? Because the sales reps are like, “Hey, can you guys come down and help promote?” Or, you know, whenever we went to somewhere and be like, “Hey, do you have Stone beer on tap?” And they'd be like, “What the hell is Stone?” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) You know, and now you can't find somebody that doesn't know what that is. Downie: Right. J Bagby: And back then, it was totally different because people weren't paying attention. People didn't care. There was five tap handles and all five of them are taken up by mass-produced beer, you know? The Heinekens, Amstel Light, Guinness, New Castle, Bud, Bud Light, Coors Light, Miller Light, not Corona, it wasn't going on tap back then but it was in the bottle under the bar. So, it was tough. It was tough for them to gain ground and getting space. And because they came out with a Pale Ale, they were in an immediate competition with Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, which had already, you know, been around for ten years at the time. So, you had that battle. You have this well, “What's, what's different from you? These guys have been doing it for a long time. They make this Hoppy Pale Ale. We've had it on tap. What's the difference?” So yeah, a lot of early struggles, a lot of, you know, almost telling--I like to say this, like Stone told people what to drink. When they came out with a beer like Arrogant Bastard and they came out with a beer like Stone IPA, and it came out with Smoked Porter that came out with these beers that no one was used to drinking and they were like, “No, you're going to like this, because this is what we have to offer. And people would taste it. And I think combined shock, new flavors, new tastes, things they'd never had before, they really grabbed onto it. And they were like, “No, this is, this is cool. I really like this.” Not necessarily knowing why or knowing what about the beer that they were actually tasting. Just that it was exciting and it was new. So, I learned to brew on that, (laughs) professional thirty barrel, professional brewhouse pretty quickly. Helped create the first Stone Barley Wine, Old Guardian. Lee and Steve and I each did five-gallon test batches. And then we, we tasted them all and created a recipe. So, that was fun. And few anniversary beers, you know, when they were taking Stone IPA and Double Stone IPA and Triple Stone IPA for the anniversary beers. Those beers just blew people's minds back then because no beer had had that kind of aroma and power on the hop side, you know? And they're not unlike a lot of West Coast IPAs that are still made today. So that was exciting. The Y(MCA) came calling somewhere in that first year, year and a half that I was in the brewhouse. I got hired at Stone in September of (19)97. And I worked there through sometime in (19)99. Okay. I'm trying to remember exactly when, but I did go back to the Y full-time because they actually have a full-time job for me and they needed the help. So, over the summers I would work a hundred-plus hours a week because I’d work a full-time job at Stone Brewing. And then I would go back over to the Y and help them with everything that they needed for the next day or for the next week of things I hired and trained. Yeah, it was crazy. Monitored staff, bus drivers, all these things while I was still working at Stone. Left Stone to do the Y thing after one of the summers, because I was like, oh, it's too much. And they were going to give me a little bit more money at Y. So, I went and did that and then got stomped on over there. Got passed over. And I was like, “You know what? I'm done with this. I've given my life to you guys and saved you guys several summers and I'm over it.” So, went back to beer, got hired at White Labs (Brewing Co.) in San Diego. I had known--by this time I had known tons of people in the industry. I had done festivals for Stone. I had worked for them in all sorts of different capacities and also knew the Pizza Port people really well. Downie: So what year--when did you get hired on White Labs? J Bagby: That was probably (19)99? Downie: Okay. J Bagby: (19)99, 2000? I can’t—I’m not positive on that. But somewhere in there. Because I definitely left--I left both the Y I think the--right before the 2000 summer started because they had made some really bad decisions and it bothered me. (Downie laughs) So, let's see. I worked at White Labs for-- Downie: As a brewer? J Bagby: No, as a sales kind of yeast consultant. Answer questions for people, take orders, you know. Downie: Was this at their--where they are now? Candida Street or--? J Bagby: No, this was the location before that. (Silverton Avenue, San Diego location.) Downie: Okay. J Bagby: A little--it's kind of an interesting place like offices on front, warehouse in the back, but much, much smaller than where they are now. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: But it was cool. It was definitely educational. It was neat to get to know Chris and Lisa (White) better as well as one of their other then-partners, Chris Mueller. I had already known all of them and met all of them so, it was kind of nice to get a job and work with them. And it was okay. It just wasn’t--it wasn’t exciting for me. And I wanted to get back into the brewhouse and I wanted to get back working with actual beer. So, kept in touch with Pizza Port and the people there, the whole time. I got hired at Solana Beach as an assistant brewer. And so, I was an assistant brewer there and bartender there-- Downie: And who was head brewer at the time? J Bagby: Tomme (Arthur), at the time. But we had become friends, gosh, right after he got hired there because I knew the brewer before him. And then they're like, “Oh, that's the new brewer.” So, I just like introduced myself and said, “Hey, I really like these beers here and blah-blah-blah” So we just got to chatting and hanging out and doing all sorts of different things. And you know, even when I was working for Stone, we connected just because it's, you know, another brewery in town. (laughs) And back then— Downie: Well, it shows the value of networking— J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: And knowing people, it makes a big difference. J Bagby: There's also a way to learn back then, you know? Steve and Lee were great and taught me a lot, but also learned a lot from Tomme. And I also learned a lot from a ton of other breweries that I met back in the late nineties and early two thousands. All across the state and even into Arizona. The guys at Four Peaks (Brewery Co.), still good friends of mine, even though they sold their company for who knows how much, they won’t tell anybody. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) Places like Marin Brewing (Company), Anderson Valley (Brewing Company), Russian River (Brewing) now, when he was still in Temecula back then. Downie: He was Blind Pig (Brewing) back then. J Bagby: Yeah, I had met him (Vinnie) and Natalie (Cilurzo) back then. Untold numbers of, you know, going to the Great American Beer Festival (GABF) for the first time was probably my biggest eye-opener to all of that and meeting more and more people because now there was the whole U.S. and all the brewers in the U.S. in one room and back then it was easy. You could go and talk to people. I was working for a brewery at the time and that was 1997. It was my first GABF. And I'll never forget going up to people and trying beers and went, “Oh my gosh, that's awesome,” you know? And just making that acquaintance. And I know a lot of those people still today that I met that year at that GABF. So really cool stuff. And that just kept building, you know? Every time I could go to a conference, every time I could go to another out-of-town festival. Meet more people. (laughs) So, you know, at Solana, I was there for probably two or three years doing assistant brewing and bartending. And then a position opened up. I had met Tom Nickel through all of this too. Because he was good friends with Tomme. He was a part of the early Ballast Point (Brewing Company) and Home Brew Mart. Tom and I are still very good friends today and Tomme. And so, he said, “Hey.” He was working for Stuft (Pizza and Brewing) at the time before it was Oggi’s. And then when it became Oggi’s, they had one in Vista that opened, their brewer was leaving. And so he's like, “Hey, if you want a head brewing job,” I was like, “Hell yeah.” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So, took it. I had interviewed with a couple others. It was just, well I interviewed at Kona and just decided I didn't want to go and live on an island. (laughs) So, and there was an opportunity in my backyard, so, why not take that? So, did that for a while. That was fun. That was really the first time I got to see my influence on brewing, make a difference for somebody's beers or somebody's restaurant or somebody's beer culture, you know? It was the first time I'd won medals on my own with my own beers. You know, we'd done very well on Solana Beach. But this was cool because it was like my stuff. And worked with Tom (Arthur). He became their corporate brewer for a short time up in San Clemente. And I worked at that location for a while until Pizza Port Carlsbad had an opening for a head brewing position and that was a bigger brewhouse. That was more beer and it was more money and it was Pizza Port was kind of my first forte. So, I went back to that and ran, within a year, was running all the brewing operations on all of their pubs. Helped them open Ocean Beach. Hired, trained, promoted a ton of different brewers who are still in the brewing industry today. Yeah, you’ve got Yiga Miyashiro, the head brewer at Saint Archer (Brewing). Greg Peters, who's the head of Barrel Program there. Ignacio Cervantes, who was the head brewer of Carlsbad after I left and then took over (Pizza Port) Bressi Ranch and is now working for a new company in San Diego (Chula Vista Brewing). Noah Regnery, who also part of that company and Brandon Edwards is also a part of that company. All guys that were head brewers at Pizza Port went on to several different breweries and have all kind of come back together in one way. I'm sure there's other people. (laughs) Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: But it was a good experience and, you know, going all the way back to my Stone days, you know, Lee and I worked in this warehouse by ourselves, you know? Day in, day out. So, you get in these conversations, you're running, you know, a four head making bottling machine for eight hours while you're filtering a beer, you know? Like, you know? You are brewing, you get into conversations and you know, both of us were like, “Yeah, I really would like to own my own place at some point,” you know? And my thoughts at that time were, I'd really like to just have a beer bar or have a place because I've enjoyed that aspect of it. I enjoyed teaching people about beer, telling people about new styles and new things that were coming out or that the Pizza Port had just come out with. So, I said, “I don't know what, I just really want to my own place. And Lee was like, “Yeah, me too, me too.” So, it's funny that both of us have had that come true- Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: Over time. But in the Pizza Port years, having, you know, kind of pulled from my YMCA experiences with hiring and training people and building sort of a management approach to running the bars at the Pizza Port, they were, for lack of a better term, they were pretty chaotic and not very well managed. And the companies were, even though they were making money, hand over fist, they weren't making as much as they could because they were losing money, hand over fist because of their bar staff. So, I tightened up that. I taught their bar staff and what, you know, beer education programs, you know, you had to spend a day in the brewery with me, all of these things. And that carried on to all of the locations. And in doing that and forging that, that's when, you know, I started having conversations with Dande. We had met and I showed her--actually I was still working at Oggi’s when we met. And, you know, started talking about, well, “What do we want, what do you want to do with this? What would you do with this?” And I was like, “Oh, I want to open my own place.” And it was funny because people would come in while I was brewing in Carlsbad, say, “Oh, we're going to open a brewery.” And I was like, “Oh, cool.” Well, this is, you know, “I've been doing this for a really long time and I'm not ready yet, but you know, good on you.” Or somebody would come in who had just opened a brewery and I'd want to help support them. So, we had guest beers at Pizza Port, we would put their beer on tap and, you know? I would talk it up and everything. And then it was funny because by the time I left Carlsbad, I didn't have that approach. I was like, “Okay, bring your beers in and then I'll taste them and we'll see what we can do.” Yeah, “We'll give you some feedback or we'll see if we can get you into rotation or not,” you know? We have a big board, there's a ton of trends, and there's a ton of spots. They're almost always taken whatever the case was, but I wasn't as eager to just blindly accept the keg as I had been in the past, when there was, you know, “Let's promote local beer and let's get this scene going.” And it transferred all the way into here because now there's even more breweries. But now that I'm one of those people that's trying to sell beer to people. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah. J Bagby: It's always so-- I get it. And, you know, hopefully, you know, the things that we had talked about before we opened and the things that we wanted to do is largely what you see today. When you come here and it's not just a beer aspect, it's a food aspect, it's a space and feel. It's also our cocktail and spirits program, wine program. All the things that we do here are things that we talked about ten years ago. Of course, it took us a very long time to get to that point. And I think we've surpassed many mountains in that process of getting to where we are, which is something that feels really good. But it's also a constant struggle when there's, you know, things that we deal with every day. And somebody asked me the other day, “Oh, would you go back and do it again?” Yeah, I would. Hopefully I know a little bit more. (all laugh) As Dande was talking about earlier with managing the construction, but it's been a crazy, crazy road. It's been fun to have been a part of San Diego beer, to have kind of put my efforts into not only just promoting the people that I worked for, but training other people into that and, you know, really teaching and promoting what good beer is and making sure that I did everything I could to make sure that San Diego was seen that way and perceived that way across the country and across the world. And I believe that I still do that today, even though there's one hundred and fifty or what odd breweries in town. I still make my efforts to make sure that that happens if that makes sense. Downie: Yeah, it does. J Bagby: Cool. Downie: So, what made you decide to basically take down Continental Motors? (J and D Bagby laugh) What made you decide on taking this piece of property and rather than taking over-- J Bagby: Good question. Downie--a building that you could just kind of refurbish? J Bagby: Yeah. Well, I kind of still ask myself that question a lot. (D Bagby laughs) D Bagby: Depends on how good the day is going. J Bagby: That 3,000 square foot warehouse looks pretty cool somedays. (laughs) No, we had a location in Encinitas that we were pretty fond of. I wanted to be the first person to make beer and Encinitas since there was one little tiny spot that was open for like nine months in downtown Encinitas called the Red Kettle. D Bagby: The (19)80s? J Bagby: And it was like (19)89 to (19)90, something like that, I think it was open. And sounded like the guy didn't know a whole lot about what he's doing. And it would be interesting to see if you find any more information on that. Downie: There’s very little on the Red Kettle. I’ve been looking. J Bagby: There's like one article you can still pull up online. Vince Marsaglia, I remember he'll tell me stories. He's told me stories about going in there and talking to the guy about brewing. But anyway, I wanted to be like, “No, I want to open up a brewery and want to, you know, it's not going to be a restaurant with the little kid in the back.” Like, yeah, I want to do that in Encinitas ‘cause Encinitas neighborhood made it look cool there. But building situation fell through. We had spent some time, even some money getting people together. We had met with everyone at the city of Encinitas. So, we knew it was going to be a bit of an uphill battle with what's going down there on the Coast. It was on Coast Highway in Encinitas, big, beautiful, gorgeous eighty-three hundred square foot building with a wooden barrel ceiling and twelve-foot brick walls. Gorgeous place. And the landlord--we had never actually spoke with the landlord. We had only spoke with his representative and he had edged us along the way. “Yeah, that's good. It's good. Yeah. That's no, he's, he wants to do this.” And we put in our LOI (Letter of Intent), you know, spent, like I said, I spent time with the city. This is what we're thinking about doing. Architects, all sorts of things. Structural engineering, because the building's old. It was an old Safeway or something, I think. D Bagby: It was a grocery store. J Bagby: Yeah, it was a grocery store at one time. That's why. And all of a sudden we just weren't hearing anything back from the rep. So, I just called them up and, “Dude, what's going on?” Like we were going forward, we think this is happening. We've heard nothing. And he just basically said, “No,” without, you know, I tried to reach out to the landlord. The owner said, “Hey, just meet me. Just--let's have a conversation.” Could never get there. And from what I hear, that guy's kind of a maniac, so I'm kind of glad we didn't get in that situation. (D Bagby laughs) But I do miss the idea of being there in that building and being in Encinitas. I think that would have been really, really cool. But-- Downie: As a hometown boy. J Bagby: (laughs) But, we took that setback. Or, yeah, it was a setback, because we were, you know, not that we'd put all our eggs in that basket, but we definitely— D Bagby: Several months. J Bagby: But, yeah, we spent several months of time on it. D Bagby: We kind of mentally moved into it too. You start to really put yourself there and how to Jeff, as you mentioned earlier, like, we had been talking about these ideas that you now see here for a long time. And so, you start to sort of layer those ideas over the space and figure out how things might go. And, it was really--it was a huge disappointment. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: But we got over it pretty quickly and moved on and... J Bagby: Yeah. So, we decided to, not to stop, but to kind of regroup. We got married and after we got married, we decided to enlist the help of a commercial real estate. So, we, through some friends we found a really good broker. And he gave--started just giving me--I met with him--he gave me no less than I think a hundred properties throughout the county to look at. And we had already found out a little bit on our own through some other connections, you know. Basically, no one's going to give you any cash. If you're in a strip mall, you're going to be paying even though, your rent might be lower, you're going to be paying other fees that make that rent go back up. And they basically only take national conglomerate stores that have very, very deep pockets these days. Not too many private strip malls out there taking breweries and first-time owners and let alone, “Oh, you want to open a restaurant and a brewery? Okay, yeah. High risk, high risk. No, don't do it, all those things.” So, we sought out to find private owners and properties that started to fit what we what we had or what we wanted on there, which was coastal North County, enough space for a restaurant, enough space to have a decent sized brewery, and a space that will allow for indoor-outdoor dining. We love the aspect of letting people or giving the people the opportunity to eat outside in this gorgeous weather that we have almost year-round. So, I'd never thought about Oceanside, but I knew that anything in between Del Mar and Carlsbad was going to be extremely expensive and extremely difficult to find. Especially for the uses that we wanted to do. You know, we were trying not to have a conditional use permit. We're trying not to deal with the (California) Coastal Commission. We're trying to get into a spot where we could build or remodel, I should say, for the most part. Downie: Yeah (laughs). J Bagby: But pretty much ended up re-building. If you saw what we did to this place before we rebuilt it— Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: We basically tore it down. Anyway, he gave me a list of seven, eight properties in Oceanside here. So, I just grabbed my camera, my notebook, and my bike and rode them all. And I came across this one and it was--you could go all the way around it, but you couldn't see much. Where the brewery is now, were solid roll-down doors. It was their maintenance garage. Up front was a showroom, so, I could look in the windows there. That building to the south, you can kind of look in there too, but you couldn't tell what was exactly going on over here. You can see a little bit, all closed, looked like it had been, somebody had moved out. And so, in my head it just started clicking and I'm like, “Oh, what if that was there? And what if we put, you know, the brewery in here? What if we did this here?” I took, I don't know, fifty pictures of the place looked at the other properties and went home and told her. I'm like, “I found it.” And she's like, “What are you talking about?” D Bagby: You actually called me from the space. (J Bagby laughs) J Bagby: I’m like, “It's an old car dealership.” She’s like, “You're fucking insane.” I’m like, “Get in a car, come down here.” (all laugh) D Bagby: It’s basically what happened. J Bagby: (laughs) So, yeah, we just kind of went from there. We told our broker, “Hey, can you, you know—" super sensitive about contacting the realtor—realtor rep, landlord, anything like that. D Bagby: Because of our experience in the industry. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: We wanted to make--just kind of proceed cautiously. And we did not have our hopes up. We had no idea what they would--what their response would be to any kind of inquiry. J Bagby: We obviously originally thought that they wanted car dealerships to take it over again. Just because they were set up that way. They have the lifts, they had the excess parking. They had, you know, frontage on South Coast Highway. There's seven other places, you know? So, we thought that's what they were going for. And they originally, they kind of said, “Yeah,” because use is that, it'd be easy for their somebody to just take it over. Downie: Right. J Bagby: And a couple of inquiries they had because the space was so big and nobody wanted it all. They would want just that building or just the parking lot, or just part of this main building, main parcel. So, I said, “Well, we're kind of interested in all of that.” (laughs) And so anyway, the original conversation with rep-between-rep, the idea of a brewery got brought up by the rep from here and unsolicited-- D Bagby: By their broker, yeah. J Bagby: Unsolicited from our broker at all. And I was like, “Yes. Okay, cool.” And so, I'm like, “Hey, can we get in it? Can we look around and see what's going on?” So, the very first day we came to look at it and the landlords was here, the owners were here. And they wanted to meet us and they wanted to hear about what we wanted to do. And if we thought the space would work. And they're still friends of ours today. They still come in here and eat. His father was from Bamberg, Germany, which is a huge brewing scene in Germany and malts. There's two big malt companies in Bamberg. Then I said, “Well, I buy malt from Bamberg.” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So, we had this, you know, this back and forth. Their son is into beer. And he really liked the idea of the legacy of the property that his father had started going into another family business of some kind. I think that probably in the end was what attracted them the most to us. But we poured our hearts out like, “Hey, this is what we want to do. And we totally get it. Like, you know, we've never opened a business. This is a huge spot. We have to raise a ton of money.” All these things, but we really want to do it.” And they went for it. D Bagby: Much to their credit, honestly. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: They took a big risk on us. And, it's a big point of pride for Jeff and I-- J Bagby: Definitely. D Bagby: -- to count them among legitimately among friends. And, we're just, we're so grateful to them for just being open-minded. It was their family's business that was here and then that they had to close and they still own the property. And they, you know, we have a long long-term lease and several options. So, we don't own the space. I'm sure the property will stay in their family forever, which I think is fine. It's perfect. But they just really--they were very interested in us as people and-- J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: --what our vision was and what we wanted to do and how we wanted to do it. And I think that aligned, even though they're totally different industries, it really aligned with their values. And, yeah, much to— Downie: Their European background. D Bagby: Yeah, definitely that that's probably part of it. (laughs) But I remember when they finally agreed, it was sort of like, obviously it's exciting, but it's also instantly terrifying. Downie: Yeah. D Bagby: You don't--And we didn't even realize at the time what we had just done, I don't think. (Downie D Bagby laugh) J Bagby: It took me six weeks to get the lease exactly where we wanted it. D Bagby: At least. J Bagby: And it's like, I think it's sixty pages of like, eight, nine-point font. It's like line-by-line and you just, you have to know, “Okay, what does this lawyerese mean?” And then go and read through and go, “Okay, no, that's what we don't agree with. Here's the change we need,” you know? And so, we just--the back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And then we start with contractors interviewing contractors, and that is a whole fiasco in and of itself because they're intense. And they realized that in the end, throughout this thing, I think they realized that their relationship is never going to be a great one, just because of the nature of the industry. D Bagby: It can’t. J Bagby: It just can't. There's too many variables and there's too much money and there's too much time involved for--I've never met anybody who was like, “Yeah, I loved my GC. My project went amazing.” They're full of shit. D Bagby: It’s like a disposable relationship in a weird way. J Bagby: Yeah, you just-- D Bagby: You need them, they you need but then it's over and we're done. We don't want to see you again kind of thing. It's terrible, but that's just kind of the nature of it. Downie: Now did your general have any background in building a brewery? J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) No, in restaurants. D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) In restaurants. J Bagby: Yeah, restaurants, and commercial or retail. But mostly restaurants and bars is what we were attracted to him for. D Bagby: Small company also--J Bagby: Smaller company. Had the reputation of being able to do something like thisD Bagby: Had worked with the architect— J Bagby: Yeah, he had worked with our architect on a project before and yeah, I mean the architect firm went down in flames pretty quick. (D Bagby laughs) I realized, oddly enough, we got an apology email from him last week, which was--D Bagby: A little late. J Bagby: Frustrating two years later. But, yeah, they just weren't equipped and we didn't know that they weren't equipped. D Bagby: We didn't know enough to know that. J Bagby: Yeah. And then, you know, I spent countless hours going to the counters at the city to talk to the engineers, to talk to the-- D Bagby: The building inspectors. J Bagby: The building inspectors and just going back and forth. “No, we need this. Okay.” So, because I'm trying to facilitate--we're trying to facilitate this project and keep it moving. And there's obviously no one in the world has any incentive, but, or the most incentive than us to get it done. And so, we're just, like she said, we just took it on. We project managed, we--every day, we'd come here and walk through and see what was done wrong or what hadn't been done or why isn't, so-and-so working today, you know? And part of that was on the GC, part of that was on their architect, and they both fell down. The architect first and then the GC. We went through five superintendents here on our project to the general contractor. Downie: Oh dear. J Bagby: And by the end I was like, “Him or no one else.” And so, we got this last guy just to get through and get our building final then and everything. But you name a discipline, you name a part or a section or a wall. I spent time on it. She spent time on it. It's--so now, you know, we're like, we're telling them, we're like, “You guys get to go, you guys get to pack up your shit and leave.” And we get to turn around and actually do what we wanted to do six months ago, or, you know, a year ago. D Bagby: When we started construction, yeah. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: When we thought we’d be done, especially. J Bagby: We, you know, we need to spend time on--I mean, we're still taking on investors, but we have to start the project. We're still searching out for investors. We're still trying to find our key executive management team and how the hell we're going to run this place. I'm still trying to figure out how to get the rest of the brewery finished off and actually making beer because we didn't want to open without our own beer. And it was just, you know, just kept on, I didn't, I think I lost forty pounds and that last like six months of the other projects before we opened, just because I could never eat, I could never sleep. And I was constantly doing something on a project that sent my stress levels through the roof. So, it was very-- D Bagby: And then you get to operate your business. J Bagby: Yeah, and then you open and you know, there's five hundred people here on a Saturday and they all want food and beer. Downie: Excellent. D Bagby: Which is great, yeah. I mean, there is that question. I mean, you just, you don't know until it happens when you open the door for the first time. Is anybody going to be here? And I know that sounds ridiculous when you think of the size of this and even just people curious. Obviously, there will be people that are curious that are cruising by, but you really don't know. I mean, it is, you don't--you don't really let yourself think that because you can't. You just have to continue to stay true to your goal and your vision. And once you start, you can't stop. I mean, it's go time. And so, when you do finally open the doors, it's amazing. It is. It's kind of amazing that people are here. And I remember the first, like week we were open, it felt really strange that there were people here I didn’t know. I was like, “Who are these people? Oh, shoot. They're supposed to be here. That's right.” (Downie laughs) It was just very weird. And we had spent so much time here over the, you know, proceeding two years that it was--it was home. We were here three hours to one, the number of hours, or four hours to one, the number of hours we would spend at home for sure. And so, this was home. And so, we knew every contract, we knew every subcontractor. We knew everybody. And they knew us. And so, when it was time to let strangers in, (laughs) it was weird. But, you know, you get over that pretty quickly. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: Because they are spending money. Downie: Of course, talking about the ‘curious’ issue, are you going to come back? D Bagby: Yeah, of course. Downie: Because just a one-time visit isn't going to keep you going. D Bagby: That’s right. Yeah, that's right. And that's still something that's, you know, on the operational side that we are always striving for. We want to be that place that people are like, “I can't wait to go back there.” We're still young though. And I that's the counterpoint to that is first of all, never stop trying. I mean, there's always something we can do better, always something we can refine. Always a better way or a more efficient way or a way that's going to make our guests happier. So, we are always pushing. We never, ever stopped. And I don't think we ever will. That's just our personalities. And luckily, it's the same--those personality traits are reflected our management team. So, they all feel the same way too. There's absolutely nobody on that team that is not completely there with us. Ready to just keep pushing and pushing and pushing. And our staff, it goes all the way to them. The people that are attracted to a place like this to work here. They, you know, they like that it's family. They liked that it's unique and different. They like that we're always pushing the envelope, trying to come up with cool new things or new ways or whatever the case. And so, it starts to draw in people who are naturally attracted to that. And so, they have a really kind of an inherent flexibility that is critical, but we couldn't have scripted that. I didn't really realize that, but it is true. We are--we ask a lot of them. We ask them to be very nimble and to do something very different one day than they did the day before, because we're trying to— J Bagby: Sorry, I’ve got to go downstairs and talk to them for a minute. D Bagby: Okay. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: Okay, I'll be right back. I got to set up a potential account with some tasting. D Bagby: Doing some tasting. Do you want to bring them upstairs for a taste? J Bagby: You did ask a question and that was what attracted us to this? Just going to finalize that and say the space. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) D Bagby: Yeah, the space for sure was the deciding factor. But when he called me from here and I've told this story before, and he said--I asked, you know, the data, like, how big is it? What's going on? And when he started to rattle off the statistics, I'm like, in my mind, “There's no way this is going to happen. (Downie laughs) There's no way.” And then every little hurdle you cross over, you knock that domino down and then pretty soon you're signing your lease. And it still doesn't really feel real until then. And then even then it doesn't feel real until— Downie: But you've been disappointed once already so-- D Bagby: Yeah. Downie: So it was kind of like you don't exactly want to get too invested— D Bagby: Once you sign the lease though, and you are a personal guarantee on that. It's yours. And so, then it's like, what do you do with that? Because there is a certain amount of money that if you just--even if you decide to never do anything with it, you're paying on your own personal account for that. So, and we knew that it was a big risk of the landlords, the owners. We knew that we wanted to not disappoint them too, as another layer in all of this. But I really didn't believe it was going to happen until it started happening. (laughs) And then the train was going and there was no stopping it, which is good. Downie: Yeah. So, what about your background, Dande? As far, as you know, you said you worked in a Fortune 500 company. Well, what's your path that got you here? And to actually be supportive of something that you could have very easily said, “No, I don't want to do this.” D Bagby: Yeah. I still do say that sometimes. No, I'm just kidding. No, my background is really weird. But somehow it all sort of feeds into to all the things that we do here. So, I worked in restaurants in high school and a little bit in college. I ended up working for a very small sort of family-run or just a couple of friends started the small kind of Mexican food chain. It was a kind of a spinoff from the Rubio’s chain. So, they had helped Ralph Rubio start Rubio's and they started their own thing. And so, I, you know, started working there my first restaurant job and worked my way up into management. And I'm still friends with the owners of that. They've since sold it all off, but it was really exciting to be a part of a small, very small and growing company. When I first was hired by them, they had one location. And then ultimately, I think they had seven or eight. Not when I worked there, but at the end of the sort of end of the line for them. And what happened though, was that they set the bar really high. I mean, they treated this little single location, you know, eight hundred square foot taco shop. They treated it as though it was a corporate--very, very organized, very dialed in, very high-quality, high standards when it came to customer service and food service and all of that. Even though it was a walk-up counter. So that was my only exposure to restaurants was that. And so, it really, it changed how I saw things, whether it was from a business perspective or from a restaurant perspective. And that was sort of, that became my benchmark, for how to be. How to be a manager, how to be managed, how to treat employees, all of that stuff began then. And it was my first real job was there. And I worked there for many years while I was--and then I went to school--my degree is in biology from Cal State San Marcos (California State University San Marcos). Downie: My goodness. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah. So, I was a molecular cell biology major. But, before that, I wanted to be a zoologist. So, I started at Palomar and my very first class, my very first semester of college at Palomar, was as zoology class. And it was just life science, check the box, get that out of the way. And I fell in love with it and it was everything. I loved it. It was--my instructor was amazing. I don't think she's alive anymore. Dr. Jessup was her name. And she was a genius and I just wanted to absorb a hundred percent of everything she could teach me, I wanted to learn it. And so that kind of led me-- I worked for the Zoological Society of San Diego for about seven years. So, I left restaurants and did that and finished my degree at Cal State and left. And I taught biology and environmental science at the high school level. I taught labs--biology labs--at the junior college level for a few years. And then ultimately worked for SDG&amp ; E (San Diego Gas &amp ; Electric Company) in their Environmental Science Department. And, that's about when I met Jeff. So, I had done all of this sort of teaching and I hadn't worked in a restaurant in a long time. And when he and I first met, he had, like he said, he had beer on tap, both at Oggi’s in Vista where he had been the head brewer and at Pizza Port Carlsbad. And I had always liked beer, but I knew absolutely nothing about it. It was completely foreign to me. I didn't even--it didn't really occur to me that it was something that you could learn about. It just sort of was a thing that existed. And of course that's--couldn't be more wrong (Downie laughs) even then in 2005, even then. And so he's like, “Well come and let's taste some beer at in Vista.” So, we went out there and he just did the tasting, not a flight. I mean he pulled--we had tasters of every beer that was on tap. There must've been a dozen beers or more. And he kind of just lined them up how you would want somebody to kind of learn about beer. And he just was like, “Okay, what does it look like? What does it smell like? What does it taste like? Where do you think that's coming from? What is that? Did you do--?” you know? I remember specifically the hefeweizen he's like, “Do you think we added anything to make that taste like that?” And I was like, “Well, yeah, you probably added some fruit or you added some spice.” And absolutely not. Just from the yeast, and that tied into my biology background. Downie: Right. D Bagby: And understanding sort of a little bit about, you know, yeast chemistry, yeast metabolism. And then it started to click. I was like, “Okay, this is cool.” And then of course that led into ales and lagers and how they're, you know, metabolized differently. And all of the life cycle and all of that stuff. And so that really kind of itched, or what do you say, like “Scratch that itch” or whatever that science-y stuff. I really, really appreciated on the cellular level, which I had kind of departed from working in environmental science. So, that was a really huge eye-opener and that was kind of it for me. So, we tasted through all the beers and that created this sort of framework for me that I still rely on today. That's just sort of styles and, you know, parts of the world. And, you know, this is like this. And that's like, you know, whether it's hops in English IPA versus an American IPA and why and how, and, even just the physical I'm like, “I don't know what hop is. I have no idea.” So, he went and he grabbed a handful of hops and was like, “This is what they are. This is what they smell like. This is what they look like. This is where they're grown.” Of course, that led into hop harvest. And that led into fresh hop beer. And I remember specifically that season going down to-- because he still was bartending. So, he had, he left Pizza Port or--excuse me, he left Oggi’s and Vista and he was head brewing in Carlsbad and he was still bartending at Solana Beach. And I lived in Cardiff at the time. And so, I would go visit him on his bartend. I think he would work Wednesday nights and same thing. He'd be like, “Well, taste this, have a taste of this.” And I specifically remember fresh hop beers that season because it was unlike anything I'd ever had before. They were--it was just amazing to me. It was this bouquet of--it really tasted like drinking flowers. And that was really exciting. So, every new experience was just something to be learned. Unlike Jeff, I loved school, I loved being a student. I loved studying and I still do. I still love to learn. So does he, but even in that, even in an academic setting, I loved at all. And so it created this never-ending quest for information and knowledge and then that tied into experience. And so, when we would travel to whether it was in California or abroad or wherever, it creates this sort of, I don't know, structure, if you will. This kind of map or pathway for learning that, you know, whether it's about people or history or the ingredients and where they came from. And so that became, it became a passion of mine as well. And this was pretty close to right away. So, you know, within the first year or so of us dating, you know, we were going to events, we were traveling for beer. We were, you know, it just became part of our shared thing. But also, I loved learning from him too. And, yeah, and he's right. We started talking about opening a place, or that he wanted to open a place, pretty quickly. I mean, it was certainly not something that was going to be happening anytime soon, but it was again part of the discussion. And so, when you're traveling somewhere, you're going--his family, his father's side is from Northern Arizona, Prescott. Little town called Prescott. So, you know, we were traveling out there once or twice a year to visit his grandfather and kind of hang out and there's Prescott Brewing Company. So, we'd go there and just kind of talk about whether it was the beers or the styles or the hop choices or whatever to--do you think how’s the service? Is that are--what would we do differently? What about the glassware? Does this seem right? And--or how's the check presented? I mean, everything, it just became part of the fabric of what we talked about. And, yeah, that lasted and it's still true. It's still true today. And we go places and we look at how just the, how the operational side, how people are solving their own problems and you know, are those things we can borrow or are they things that we would never do because they don't fit with who we are. So that's how, that's the weird biology-biologist into brewery owner. Downie: Everybody comes from somewhere. D Bagby: That’s right. Downie: Actually, you know, like you say, the whole hops chemistry. You know, Jackie Trischman in Chemistry at Cal State (University San Marcos) is working with Stone investigating hops chemistry. D Bagby: That’s awesome. Downie: So, you know, Bonnie Bade (Cal State University San Marcos) in Anthropology is medicinal plants, Native American medicinal plants, and looking at how those can be incorporated into beers and things, so… D Bagby: Absolutely. Downie: So, it's--you can pull a whole lot of different disciplines and interests and experiences into-- D Bagby: Absolutely. Downie: The whole world of beer. D Bagby: Absolutely. And that, and the whole historical piece too, is something that both Jeff and I are really passionate about. And that's a big reason why we have such diversity in terms of the beer styles that we brew here. He brews here because of that. They, you know, a Belgian blonde brings us--brings us back to Brussels. It brings us back to visiting with our friend Yvan (De Baets) from (Brasserie) de la Senne, you know? That to us is a big reason why we wanted to do this also is to bring pieces of these experiences that we've had all over the world right here. And if somebody is able, isn't able, or doesn't know they want yet to go to Belgium or they don't know they want to go to Germany or maybe they never will, you know? If we can bring a little piece of that to them, that's whether it's the beer, the glassware, the, you know, a little bit of history lesson through our employees. That's all--that's a big, that's a huge piece of this for us. So having a big staff is a challenge. Per slight understatement. Downie: How many employees do you have? D Bagby: We have about sixty employees now. Yeah. Which is the smallest staff we've ever had. We--when we first opened and you always open with more than you need, but we had over a hundred employees at one point. Downie: Wow. D Bagby: Which is a big, huge thing. Lots of people. J Bagby: Through all of that, through all of the construction, through all of the opening and employees (unintelligible), I like to tell people that absolutely nothing surprises me anymore. D Bagby: No J Bagby: Nothing. D Bagby: No, no. J Bagby: I've heard it all, seen it all at all. Been through it all. Yeah. Downie: And you're still standing. D Bagby: Yeah. We are. Yep. Downie: So, you've already said that you really don't look to expand beyond this site and it seems like it's large and you have plenty of elbow room but— J Bagby: We could even expand onsite because we have a building that we haven't really even touched--(speaking at the same time) D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Touched. Yeah. Downie: You’re kidding. D Bagby: Yeah. Downie: So you have expansion elbow room. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yes. D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yes. Downie: But since you're not canning beers now, what are your plans for the future in, you know, distribution or canning or--? J Bagby: So, we've gone back and forth. What--we looked pretty seriously at purchasing a canning line. Mike Hess (Mike Hess Brewing) was selling theirs. So, I went down and looked at it, kind of ran some numbers and looked at it. But we wouldn't have been a good idea for cashflow for one thing. And the other was, we didn't have that output really. So, we'd have this really-- D Bagby: Beautiful. J Bagby: Nice canning line and it would be lovely to put a ton of beer in cans, but no output for it. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: Which, you know, cart before the horse or not, or whatever, it's sometimes you just have to jump in. And so, we decided not to at that point, but it is something that's on the mind, especially with a lot of our beers that tend to be growing in popularity and that we think would be really good in a package or in the proper package. So, that's still a possibility. But we haven't decided what step we're going to take first in doing that. So, there is a possibly of that in the next year or two, three. Other than that, I really want to continue pushing our draft distribution because it's something that we can do in the framework that we have. We have the beer, we have cooperage, we can get more cooperage very easily. And the capital outlay isn’t as much, and the space requirement is not as much or as intense as packaging. What else, what else? D Bagby: We one hundred percent self-distribute in California. So, we don't have a distributor anywhere. J Bagby: Out of state we have (unintelligible). D Bagby: Out of state, yeah, we (unintelligible). J Bagby: We’re not sending a lot out beer of out of state, yeah. (Aside to D Bagby, Forgot to tell you I talked to Matt Bonney yesterday about Washington.) D Bagby: Oh, okay, cool. J Bagby: So, we'll do some stuff up there, but anyway. (laughs) D Bagby: There you go. Heard it here first before I even heard it. (laughs) No, just kidding. J Bagby: And he called me during the party. D Bagby: Yeah. So self-distribution. We want to do that as long as we can. As a young business, (unintelligible), the margins on draft wholesale beer are already pretty, pretty low. So, you want to try to maximize as much revenue as you can at this stage of a business. There's also a lot of interesting things happening. I try to kind of dial into this a little bit as much as I can. There's a lot going on with this whole notion of hyper-local and, you know, being the kind of brewery that, and there are lots of them, that have these humongous, very ambitious goals to be in every state or to be in twenty states or to be all over the place right now. And I certainly don't disparage that, that's part of their business model and that's what they think is awesome. Go for it. But it's really feeling a lot like people are more, appreciating more and more, what's right near them. And you see certain breweries that are drawing back from that, that broad scale distribution more and more-- J Bagby: Or just staying where they are. D Bagby: Or are just staying where they are, yeah. They say steady is the new growth. So, I think we're just, we're kind of a cautious company. We don't take a lot of big risks. Maybe because we have such a gigantic property here and so much going on that we don't have to. I mean, we don't even have the energy really to make big plans. But, no, we do talk a about what's next and where, where are we going to grow. And I do think even locally--we, you know, Jeff said, when he tries to sell someone beer, we actually haven’t actively sold any beer. Every drop of beer that hasn't been sold over our bar here at the pub has been somebody coming and saying, “Hey, I want to have your beer on at my place.” So, they reach out to us either, you know, usually via email. J Bagby: That’s who I just met downstairs. And he is a friend, but they came to us to taste. More traditional sort of setup like, “Hey, can you send your rep by and bring some of your beers? I'd like to taste them on tap.” D Bagby: Yeah, we do not have a rep. (laughs) J Bagby: I'm the rep. D Bagby: We don’t have one of those. Yeah. (J Bagby laughs) Part of it is too--and so that’s, it’s kind of nice that that’s, because then we know the accounts that have come to us really already get it. They already understand what we do and appreciate that enough to reach out, but we do not, we understand that is not sustainable. And the growth that we really do want to realize on the wholesale side is only achievable with some outreach. And that’s something that is--we know, we both acknowledge that that’s really important. But we also, again talk about kind of risk aversion. We were—it's still too close to us. We don’t want to just hire a sales rep and tell them to go out in the world and sell the beer. It’s really hard to let go of it and to, you know, just be those, just say, “Oh yeah, go for it. Volume volume. Get it.” Because it still really matters to us who’s pouring it. How they’re pouring it. Are they taking care of the kegs? Is the glassware appropriate? Is it clean? Are the lines clean? All we need is somebody to have a beer like this Kölsch that I'm drinking that is so delicate. And such a light beer that, you know, if it’s not cared for it is going to be flawed. And you know, most people don't drink a beer and think that they don’t like and think that it isn’t the brewer (laughs) or the brewery. Most people do not say, “Oh, those lines must be dirty. That's why this does not taste right.” So, it’s just cautious and definitely overly cautious. I’ll say we are very careful. And, you know, that’s, at some point we're going to have to start peeling our fingers off those kegs a little more forcefully and get out there in the world and really see. We hear from time to time that people believe that we just don't have any beer to sell. Because we aren’t actively selling it, which isn’t true. We make a lot of beer and we sell a lot of beer over our own bars, but we definitely have some volume that could go out much more than it is. So, we’re working on it. Got our hands pretty full. (laughs) Downie: Now, this is something, you know, because you are both cautious people, but what if something happened and your landlord decided to sell the property? J Bagby: So, there's provisions in our lease that say that I can’t change our lease. Downie: Okay. Downie: It was very protective. D Bagby: Yeah. J Bagby: It was very protected line by line that thing to make sure things like that like they couldn’t say, “Oh, we are going to sell a parking lot to a developer for apartments.” They can’t do that, you know? So, if they sell it our lease stands. D Bagby: And we can buy it too, we have to be considered. J Bagby: We don’t have first right of refusal. D Bagby: Something else called that. J Bagby: Their landlord or their rep did not want to give that--our landlords have kids. I would not see them giving up this property to somebody unless we just came by and plopped the amount of money on them, which can happen. And, you know, I know that the people that own these shops kind of behind the alley-- D Bagby: West of us. J Bagby: The other side, are trying to develop it and turn it into apartments. J Bagby: I'm like, that is a six-year project. If Coastal Commission-- D Bagby: It’s the Coastal Commission. Downie: Yeah, it’s a coastal commission. Will even allow it. D Bagby: Yeah, if the city-- J Bagby: We are so lucky to avoid those things, you know? We don’t have a conditional use. It was in the beginning we had some neighbors that were complaining. And I think it was just because people were parking on the street. It’s public parking on the street. And they were just getting mad because they used to park in front of their house at a certain time of night. And it wouldn’t be a problem. You know, because we’re—anyway. Somebody came and complained and said, “Oh, well, I'm going to go to the city. And you know, I’ve already started signatures to get your conditional use removed and dah-dah-dah.” And I was like, “Well, that’s cool, but we don’t have a conditional use.” And (the city has nothing to do over what we do here as a business. Because we’re permitted as a right. So, (whispers) sorry about that. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah, it was, we haven’t really, honestly, for being as close as we are to residential, we have had virtually no issues other than the first probably month we were open where people were kind of caught off guard maybe by the volume. But that’s, I mean, at least as far as I'm aware, we haven’t had any issues. We haven’t had any issues. J Bagby: I had a couple of things. There was that one guy that, you know, I think he just wanted to come in and kind of rant. And I was nice to him. I just let him go. And when I said, you know, “I want to work with you. I want to work with the community, but you got to realize that, you know, the streets are public parking and unless you get that changed, which you're perfectly willing to try to try to do, but I don't believe the city is going to let you just for your spot in front of your house. And you know, I want to help you. We have the required parking that we're supposed to have for the use that we have here per our agreements with the city. And, you know, really sorry if there's any incidents or things that, you know, please feel free to call us.” Like just, you know, kill them with kindness kind of thing. And you know, reminded him that he really could not do anything about it. D Bagby: Yeah, you live on a commercial zone, basically the boundary of a residential and commercial coming together. And that can be a challenge, especially because there wasn't anything here, no operating business for years. And even when the dealership was still going, I mean, they wouldn't--there wasn't so much parking demand. Yeah. That would have ever affected them. So, I get it. I would be upset too, probably, but— Downie: But yeah. And change is always going to have somebody not happy. D Bagby: Absolutely. That's true. Yeah. Sweat: I actually have to go. I'm overseeing an event in Encinitas here in a second, so I have to run. D Bagby: I hope you don’t run into any traffic. Sweat: We’ll see what happens. (laughs) Downie: It should be pretty good by now. Sweat: I'll follow up with you tomorrow just to make sure you have everything you need and just see what any next steps are. But, let me know in the meantime if you need anything. Downie: Thank you, Holly. D Bagby: Thanks Holly. Downie: I wish you a safe and easy drive. Sweat: Thank you, I know. D Bagby: I hope so too. Holly, we'll look at those pictures today, too. I know you guys are asking and we just have had a crazy few days. Sweat: Yeah, we know with your party. D Bagby: Yeah. (laughs) Sweat: It looked like a lot of fun. D Bagby: It was a lot of fun. Sweat: And honestly, if you are only able to decide on like, a few, I could do the ones of Jeff just to get them to see. D Bagby: Yes, I'll do that tonight before I leave. For sure. And how many do we need to give her? Total? Or selection? Sweat: It’s in the email, like, how many you guys agreed to pay for. D Bagby: I can’t remember. Sweat: It might be one or two or Jeff. D Bagby: Okay. Sweat: That we agreed upon. D Bagby: Okay. Sweat: But yeah. D Bagby: Thank you. Sweat: It’s nice to see you both. D Bagby: You too. Drive safe. Downie: So, if you can still give me a little more time. I know I had just an hour, so I don’t (unintelligible)--. J Bagby: Sure. I might check in on that account in a minute, but yeah, if you have some more questions, for sure. Downie: You both sound like you're very, very invested in education, you know, which is a wonderful thing. What would you say, I mean, do you support any charities or causes through the brewery that you feel like you want to talk about? Or, are there plans to expand your reach into, you know, goodwill gestures besides listening to irate neighbors? (all laugh) J Bagby: It's hard, you know? We get approached almost every day about some sort of donation for something. We have an outlet on our website where you can fill out a form and apply. And while we like supporting charities and the community, it's difficult because there are so many of them. And we like to look at the ones that either we've supported either personally in the past, or that we have a connection to through a family member or a very good friend. Where we can say, “Okay, you know, this is important to us because of this.” You know, while we like also doing this, we're also running a business. So, at some point you can't--you have to close the doors a little bit on it and say, “Look, we want to help you out. But you know, you're asking—" we could do it. The easiest thing for us to do is donate beer. But the hardest thing for us to donate is beer because of the licensing required for the nonprofit to actually get it. And they don't understand that. Downie: I’ve run into that. (laughs) J Bagby: And we always have to be the one that's like, well, “We'd love to help you out, but there's this, this, this, and this.” Downie: Yeah, and more education. And what Stone did—because I approached Stone about some beer to maybe put into a scholarship raffle that we do through the Society of California Archivists I belong to. And it was, “Well, what did the ABC (California Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control say?” And then I ran into the ABC and I just went, for the permits we'd have to get, it's just, you know, it would eat up what little money we would make. So, and I understand that completely because (unintelligible). D Bagby: Yeah, we’ve seen it. But, with that said, we are involved. J Bagby: Yeah, I mean, we just had two weeks ago or, not this past week and the weekend before, we had a gigantic breast cancer benefit festival on our parking lot that a lot of our staff members donate their time to. We donate beer to, we donate food to—yeah, we donate space. And basically, we host the charity. And that was something that I started with the woman who founded the festival back at Pizza Port. Downie: Is that Brewbies? J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: So that's the biggest one that we have. And then this one that we just had almost raised almost fifty thousand dollars for charity. Downie: Wow. Wonderful. J Bagby: And so, you know, knowing that and having been involved with this one for nine of them now, and being in the beer industry in general, I'm always getting asked, I'm very diligent about when we get a request for a festival because sometimes, first and foremost, sometimes the festival isn't necessarily great for the charity. There'll be a promotional company--excuse me, that we'll get out there, go up to a charity and say, “Hey, we can make you five thousand dollars if you pull the license for this,” you know? But they don't realize the potential risks involved or the insurance liability that they have to take on, different things like that. And the production company ends up taking the majority of the money because the proceeds. Now it's illegal because one hundred percent of it with that one day ABC license is supposed to go to the charity. Downie: Right. J Bagby: So, if someone squats, the ABC can say, “Hey, we need to see your books.” And then not only does the charity get in trouble, which they may not even be aware of. Downie: Right. J Bagby: But that promotional company, and even the breweries could get in trouble because they donated to it. Another thing is on our side, not only are we just donating beer but probably donating two people's full day’s worth of time to get the beer ready to go to the event, to get all the equipment together, to drive to wherever it might be to set up, to pour, take it all down and bring it all back home, clean it all. And so, people don't realize what really goes into it on our side when we're donating. We're not just donating a beer, we’re donating quite a bit more so we're pretty diligent about those. But that's really the easiest way for us to support a charity or a community event, unfortunately. Downie: But those are facts that, you know, people need to be aware of. And you both talked about how much learning you've had to do along this path. D Bagby: We’ve done some kind of other fundraisers, though. J Bagby: Yeah, we've done some onsite things. D Bagby: There have been a couple of military things that we've supported and— J Bagby: And the dogs, yeah. D Bagby: So there's a few things that we really, really kind of key into that mean a lot to us. But yeah, I think as a— J Bagby: Firefighter-- D Bagby: Pint Project. J Bagby: Yeah. A couple of onsite things that were pretty successful and, you know, we're just--you get back to this, like you can't do them all, you know? And as not nice as it sounds, it does need to benefit us in some way as well. Because we are offering up a lot when we do these things and why we want to help the community, we want to help these people that need help in some way, we just have to be careful. D Bagby: Yeah. Exactly. Downie: Yeah. Because, you know, I mean, not every charity is a 501(c ) or is required and you get into all kinds of thin ice. So, very understandable. But, no. D Bagby: Now that's one of the things that I think is a benefit to us as Jeff has made it his mission and his absolute business to know as much as he can about ABC licensing. Just any sticky situations that are pitfalls. The San Diego Brewers Guild (a nonprofit organization that promotes San Diego breweries) just hosted like a ABC meeting at a local brewery a couple of weeks ago. And I feel like we knew a lot of that stuff that was mentioned, but it's still great to go and be a part of that. J Bagby: It’s like a refresher course. D Bagby: It’s a refresher. But you can just see in the room, people— J Bagby And you get questions and hands go up. And you’re thinking “You can’t do that.” D Bagby: Yeah. yeah. So, it was really interesting to see people's reaction to these rules that many of not all--I've been really long standing for a long time, but if you don't know, you don't know. And I think there's a lot of ask for forgiveness later, which may have worked in the past, but as the ABC gets more versed, they get--there are certain things that they were getting very particular about as they should. Downie: Well, once they see it as a continual problem, that it keeps happening, they're going to start coming down and— D Bagby: Yeah, and it's, you know, it is--I believe that it is your job as if you're going to have a license that you should know how it works and what--it's a responsibility. And it's hard for us to sometimes see other breweries who don't know. And that's fair if you don't know initially, but that blatantly break these laws all the time. And you don't want to see them get in trouble, but you also don't want to set up. It sets expectations on the customer side it sets expectations on other breweries’ sides were like, well, “They did it, why can't I?” And so of course for people like us who, like I said, risk averse, we want to make sure that we're--I mean, our biggest asset, those are the alcohol license. That's why we're here. So, if something happens to that, it gets jeopardized that's--that is a bad thing. (laughs) Very bad. So, yeah, it's, it's been talking about education. That's something that I've learned a lot from Jeff. And we've offered up if anybody has questions certainly here locally, you know, we're always available. People want to bounce an idea or, you know, find out more, we're happy to help. Downie: So, you're active in San Diego Brewers Guild. Because I saw you at Guild Fest (SD Brewers Guild Fest) and you just mentioned a recent meeting. Are there any other organizations you're active in or are members of--? J Bagby: We’re members of the Brewers Association, the National, um— D Bagby: CCBA. J Bagby: And the California Craft Brewers Association. Also, the MBA, the Masters Brewers Association of America. D Bagby: I'm actually a board member on the— J Bagby: San Diego. D Bagby: Brewer’s Guild. But yeah, there's a lot of those little things like that. J Bagby: I think those are the main ones, but those are all, I mean, there's some international stuff, but yeah. Downie: Yeah. What are you going to get involved in? I mean, again, it's kind of like the finding the charities that are actually going to be beneficial. Is that going to benefit you? J Bagby: (unintelligible) international. Well, yeah. I was going to say the only benefit for us because, you know, they have incredible conferences and technical courses. (Downie laughs) That would probably be the only reason for us to really be a part of those. And there's some competitions, there's some, some bigger European competitions that are gaining a lot of speed and a lot more Americans are actually sending beer over and winning medals. So, it's something to watch. But yeah, it's not like, you know, where we're going to Brau and Nuremberg every year or something like that. Downie: Well, that does bring up. When did you start putting your beers into competition? D Bagby: Good question. J Bagby: That was back when I was at Pizza Port at Solana Beach. We entered beers at Stone, but they weren't really--I didn't have anything to do with the recipes of those beers. Downie: Okay. You were an assistant. J Bagby: I was just standing there, but when I got to Solana Beach and was working with Tomme, some of those were my ideas and my things where I brewed them, or we brewed them together. It's a bit more intimate and I was a little bit more involved. So, I would say there, really. And that's where, you know, won, our first, or my first time across the stage. (laughs) Downie: Have you kept a list of all the awards you've won (unintelligible)? J Bagby: She did quite a bit of work on that before our business case. Before we opened. But I think she ended up just tallying GABF awards and World Beer Cup awards. Because there's certainly other things, too. There's like Alpha King. I’ve won that three times. That's the Hoppy Beer Competition that they hold during the GABF, that’s not associated with the GABF. Some awards at San Diego International Beer Festival, what do you call it? Beer of the Year, three times there. And some various other medals in, you know, have we ever entered LA county? A couple of times. So, you know, some things here and there. IPA festivas up and over North and Hayward. Years ago, I won medal at the Alaska Beer and Barleywine Festival. Downie: Oh, Alaska. Wow. You've really reached out here. J Bagby: It's a very long running, very famous festival. Downie: I’ve heard of it, yeah. But it just seems very interesting to me that if somebody were keeping a list of what beers they had won awards for, I think that would tell a story about some of the changes in styles and some of the expansion of styles of beers. J Bagby: Yeah, yeah. Maybe, I don't know. I was talking to somebody. I was in Miami at a festival this past weekend. A friend of mine, his anniversary for his brewery. And he throws a festival that coincides with it. It's invitational. Anyway, he invited me and I was like, “Yeah, I've never been to Miami. I'll go.” So anyway, I was talking to another brewer friend who was there and he was like, “Oh, well, you know, you won lots of IPA (India Pale Ale) medals,” and you and I was like, “Boy, yeah, I won some of those,” but also won in Belgians and a lot of different stout medals. And, I even have a couple of German pilsner medals. Some other like, you know, Scotch Ales, like Brown Ales. It's kind of a wide gamut. So, I don't know if my medal history would necessarily tell much of a story in that way. Maybe. Downie: Yeah. Well, I think the more pieces of evidence there are, the more our story can be put together. But have you ever done judging? J Bagby: Oh yeah. Yeah. I've been a judge at the GABF (Great American Beer Festival) and the World Beer Cup for thirteen years. Thirteen, fourteen years now. I don't remember my first judge GABF. It was like 2003, I think. So, yeah. I've been doing that for a long time and I'll be doing that this year in National. Downie: Yeah. I've heard comments that GABF has gotten so big and so many categories that has just really become kind of overwhelming. How do you feel about that? J Bagby: I wished that they would, on the organization side, that they would grow the competition to represent the growth in the beer industry. I get what they're trying to do and what then they have limitations, but sometimes I think they're being a little harsh on the restrictions on their side. You know, there's almost eight thousand beers in there, in the GABF last year, and I'm sure the World Beer Cup will be around that. And I think there's seventy-nine categories. They haven't expanded the categories too much in the last five years. I think maybe ten years ago there might've been sixty-something categories. So, it hasn't expanded a whole lot, but what has is the entries, right? So, brewers used to be able to enter around eight beers per brewery, or brewhouse, location into the competition. They've changed that and they have several different categories in ways, you know, like a Pizza Port that has five locations. You know, what if all five locations enter beers? Well, they have stipulations on how many beers a corporation, or a set of breweries, that are under one ownership can enter. So, every year that we've been a brewery, we've entered the maximum number of beers that we can enter into the GABF. And that makes it difficult because you only have four shots, right? Like we're sending four beers to the World Beer Cup. So, it's a more difficult. But so does everybody else. And so, everyone else has to make the decisions and the kind of cuts in their mind of which beers they want to enter, which ones that they're going to pass on for this year or this competition or whatever it is. So, it's still very fair. I think it's still judged very fairly. Probably the most fair competition there is in beer because of the qualities, the qualifications of the judges, and their palates and their history and their tenure as judges judging beer. It's all judged blind. It’s done very, very well. The problems I see with it are the categories that are masked, or you have over two hundred beers in the category: American IPA, Imperial IPA. I think American Pale Ale is pretty high. Some of these other ones that they get close to, you know, that are well over one hundred beers. You're getting into a situation where the algorithm isn't--so, you know, when they're spitting out their initial rounds and the algorithm that isn't accounting for past medal winners. Or beers--so you could have a round that has eleven beers in it, say it's American IPA, and that round might not have a single beer that's ever been in the competition before, or all new breweries that have never been to a competition for it. Then you could have another set of eleven beers where every single one of those beers has won a medal in the American IPA category before. And they’re, as far as I know, they're not accounting for that. And to me, that changes the game a little bit. Because even if you're a judge and you, at which has happened before, you'll get around and you'll be like, “Man, it was tough to pass on three of those beers, really could have passed on two or even just one and save the judges down the road some tasting.” Well, they require you to pass on three. They really push you to pass on three. If you absolutely can't then they want to hear why and want to hear an explanation. And so, I just believe that in that sense, you know, well maybe it's okay, but in the other sense where they're like, “Man, we had eight good beers. It was really hard to only pass on three beers.” So, now you've got this thing where you might have a potential medal winner that gets knocked out early because it was in a round with all excellent beer. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: So that's--if I had a complaint about them, I wished that they would account for that. Especially in those--there's only, I'm talking to a handful of categories where that is really something I think that comes into play. The only other thing might be, like I said, to have grown with the competition or with the industry and allow brewers to enter more beers. But that takes more time. It takes more judges. They try to get the judging done in three days. If they didn't, they'd have to get another day, which is paying more, but you have to pay to enter the competition. So, to me, there's some work that probably could still be done. And there is a lot of brewers out there that are like, “Oh GABF. It's kind of eh.” You know, I believe in what my beers are and I send them and either I don't win medals or other beers win medals in the category that I entered that I don't think are as good as my beer. I think you have people that feel like that. But having been a judge, I've been on the tables. I've never been in a case where I was like, “That beer should have won a medal and it's not in the top three,” you know? I've never had a case where there wasn't a lot of thought and a lot of time spent into the beers that actually win medals. They’re medal-winning beers. Downie: Okay. I had a question and it’s just completely slipped my mind. J Bagby: Sorry. I know. Downie: No, that's okay. It still had to do with this. Um, I don’t know. (laughs) J Bagby: With the competition, or--? Downie: Well, oh, I know what it is. The brewers themselves decide what style of beer they’ve brewed. Have you run into cases where you taste a beer and you go, “This has--should have been in this category, you know. What were they doing putting it in here?” J Bagby: Yeah. Yeah. And the BA (Brewer’s Association) is real upfront about that when they tell brewers, you know, read the style guidelines and make sure that your beer fits into those guidelines and they give you everything. They give you a verbal description of the bitterness, color, aroma, mouthfeel, text--you know, everything. And then they also give you actual numbers for alcohol range, color range. Those are the things you need to pay attention to. And I feel like there is brewers that still don't pay attention to that. I don't know how or why. Or if they've just mislabeled their beers or what happened. But, they're—it’s pretty upfront. Like, this is--the judges have this when they're sitting at their table and they're going to read this before they start judging your beer. So, why would you enter something that doesn’t fit? Downie: Yeah, because you don't know why. Because I was thinking, well, maybe it's just their taste buds are different? Or it didn't transport well. (laughs) J Bagby: Yeah. I think, you know, for instance, she (D Bagby) sent me a picture one day. She had a Kölsch earlier. I can't remember what brewery she was drinking at. But she sent me a picture and it was this hazy beer in a straight sided pint glass. And she wrote “Kölsch--?” And so of course I went, “What does it taste like? Where are you at? Blah-blah-blah.” But a lot of people would look at that and go, “Well, Kölsch should be bright,” you know? Any German from Cologne is going be like, “That's hazy,” that’s got--you know. Even chill haze shouldn't really be there in a Kölsch. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: And a brewer's interpretation is one thing of what they call it on their menu board versus, you know, what category they might enter it in GABF. So, a beer like that might be an entered in a Keller beer. Because it might be an unfiltered Kölsch. So, they might say, well, “Yeah, it's German style Kölsch,” but it's actually a Keller beer because it was brewed in the vein of a Kölsch, but Keller is a German style beer. Downie: And that’s “K-E-L-L-E-R?” J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Okay. I'm still learning all the— J Bagby: Oh yeah, there’s tons. And that's-- Downie: There’s huge number of beer styles. J Bagby: Yeah, and there's, you know, historical beers that are becoming more popular and more rare, more obscure recipes and styles where there's a little bit more confusion or debate over what is actually correct. The Brewer’s Association does a good job of refining their categories and reviewing them each year. So, they take judge's interpretation—or judge’s comments on style descriptions. “No, no, this actually should be this way,” or “This should allow for this and this as well as this,” you know, so they do a good job of keeping up with that. But yeah, if you, you know, taste a brewer’s altbier at one brewery, and then he goes to another brewery and tastes another brewer’s altbier, they could be completely different beers. So, there that slide in judgment, but when you get into competitions, where's the category of your beer doesn't fit in it, then don't enter it. (laughs) Downie: Well, I mean, brewing is such a creative process. And there are as best as you can try certain factors like, you know, a Centennial hop may not be exactly the Centennial hop it was the year before due to the growing season, the factors there. So, it really is a creative process, but I've been kind of interested in the whole, you know, yes, I've seen some of these categories and descriptions and I'm like, “How can you always guarantee that those beers?”--well, obviously not. Not surprised. J Bagby: Yeah, there's interpretations of (unintelligible) category descriptions in different ways, for sure. Downie: Well, while you were meeting that account, Dande was telling me how, you know, when she first met you, how you were educating her into all the varieties of beers, you know? How she has found that to be so helpful. And then just the brewers I meet all seem to be that way as they to educate someone who--on the various styles that they're brewing or they're enjoying right at the time. Do you find that wearing? You know, continually trying to educate more people? J Bagby: I think when it's--if I was doing it every day, I think it might get—or the same exact set of beers every day or the same exact descriptions of the same person or the same, you know, whatever. I think I might get a little tired of it. But to me it's kind of exciting, especially when you have somebody that's open to it and isn't restrictive of themselves in their own palates. So, if you have somebody that's like, “I've never tasted German-style Weisse beer. I've never tasted American Red Ale,” which is kind of a better example. “I've never tasted Irish dry stout. I've never tasted—" you know? Whatever it may be. And if you can get five or six of those things in samples right in front of somebody, that's going to be a really cool conversation. Especially if that person's open to tasting and listening and identifying with what you're talking about in each one, you know? When you say, “Oh, what do you smell on that? What are you getting that? Okay.” Those types of things come from this ingredient or this timeframe or this hop or this malt and--or whatever other specialty ingredient might be there. And when the person identifies and goes, “Oh wow, that's really cool. I never thought of it like that.” All of the sudden you've got somebody who thought they hated German-style hefeweizen and going, “No, actually I'm going to order that the next time I'm out because I want to compare it or I want to see what it's like again, and kind of—"you know? I think people like, you know, connecting the dots in their heads. And if you've given them a little bit, just to even a little bit to bite on like English-style bitter, or an Extra Special Bitter, you know, what does that mean? What does that, it sounds, it sounds harsh, Extra Special Bitter. Well, no, there's actually some really nice malt depth in ESB (Extra Special Bitter) and it should be there. Well, it should have a firm bitterness, but what kind of bitterness? Well, it's not American piney, citrus, passion fruit, floral. And it's not that kind of hop it's the more herbal, spicy, earthy hop from the English varieties. And even just that much, and a person can go, “Oh, well, I really liked that.” Downie: And it makes it more accessible. J Bagby: And the next time, the next time I see it somewhere, I've got that connection in my brain to go, “Yeah, I know what I'm ordering it and there it is. Affirmation.” I'm drinking it. And it smells and tastes like I remembered. And I was told that it should. And I get that a lot where somebody will say, “Hey, you mentioned that, you know, this style beer can have this, this, and this. But I tried it over here and I got this, this, and this.” And that's sometimes where the brewer’s discrepancy is between styles or different ingredients or maybe just something is slightly different. But you can explain that away. And therefore, they've learned a little bit more and they have their file on whatever that beer was just got a little bit deeper in their head. So, the next time they try it and they connect the dots again. And I don't know, to me that's fun. That's exciting. And it's really exciting to see when someone's open to that and is engaging in that. It's kind of a little bit difficult when somebody says, “Oh, I don't like bitter beer,” or, “I don't like hops.” And you're like, “Well, you just haven't tried the right hops yet.” It's like, if you like beer and you're say you're a beer drinker, I believe--yes, you can have your favorites and the ones that you don't think are as great to you, but you got to try everything. You know, there's some newer, crazy styles out there I get, but the basics, ales and lagers, and the families within there, the style of families, if you say you're a beer drinker, you should know those or have a basic framework and understanding of what those are or have the desire to go, “I've never really tried that. I'm not really familiar with that, but I want to see. I want to see what it tastes like so that I know if I really like it, or I don't.” To like, find that out later, you know, like give yourself the chance to like it. Downie: It's like the three-bite rule with the kid and the vegetable. And then, you know, you got to at least try three bites of it. And then if you don't like it, we'll go from there. So that's a good way to do it. Now, do you have a favorite hop? Is there one that you like brewing with more than others? J Bagby: There’s definitely hops—plural--that I like using. We're a pretty classic traditional brewery. So, we stick to pretty traditional classic styles of beer. So, we're not using too many of the new, exotic, crazier hops. We're sticking to more of the classic American Pacific Northwest American hops and then the Nova varieties and then the English varieties. So, on the American side, you know, we're using a lot of Cascades, Centennial, a little Amarillo and Simcoe, and Columbus and Chinook. And that's kind of our core for the American side, but then the English ones are really wide and Noble hops as well. We use a lot of different varieties and again, not a lot of real new flashy ones, in part because of our contracts, we didn't know how and when our brewery was going to open. So, I bought a lot of hops because I was afraid that we weren't going to have any when we opened. So that drove that a little bit. The other part was just, yeah, I really liked those more classic American hops over some of the newer ones. Not to say that I don't like sprinkling a little of them here and there in brews, but I tend to favor those classic ‘C’ hops (referring to Chinook, Citra and other hops starting with the letter C.) Downie: And so you don't, from what you're saying, I'm hearing that you probably aren't planning on doing, you know, real strange and experimental beers either, you know? You're going to stick with the more--? J Bagby: No, I think if anything, I would pick some of the more obscure older styles. I’ve talking with some friends about a smoked wheat beer that used to be made that is actually--I believe it's actually a lager yeast and it's a fairly bright beer. But it has a smoked character to it, and a little bit of bitterness and wheat malt character to it. But I'm always afraid to brew smoked beer because I think, I always think that it's going to be me and like three other people drinking it. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) Downie: Yeah, it could be a big mistake if you brewed it on your big system. So, do you have a small system that you can do little test batches on? J Bagby: No, it’s— D Bagby: It’s all or nothing. Downie: Well, that goes to being risk averse again. J Bagby: Yeah, we have a little lager on right now. I think it tastes fantastic. I just think it doesn't--I just think it's not exciting to people. It's a Belgium style beer. If you're familiar with Belgian style dubbel, which is basically like a Belgian style brown ale, but it has a Belgian yeast character to it. So, it's a little spicy and dark fruit and things like that. Well, take that and cut it in a little less than half with alcohol and flavors and everything else. We dropped it down to only about four and a half percent. It still has a lot of those characters, they're just a lot more mild and it's not as big and it's not as heavy. But it's not selling at all. (laughs) So, even somebody even called it dark Bud Light in the online comment. Downie: Oh dear. (laughs) J Bagby: That was fun to read yesterday. (laughs) D Bagby: That’s alright. It’s not for everyone. J Bagby: Nope. And that's exactly. That's kind of how we thought about it. Downie: One person's interpretation. J Bagby: Exactly, exactly. Downie: But yeah, if you're seeing that it's not really selling then, you know? You kind of-- J Bagby: Yeah, we (unintelligible)-- D Bagby: We had a few beers like, but that's, I mean, unfortunately, a few of them were Belgian styles. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: But, Bruges Cruise was on for a long time. J Bagby: Well, that's because it was over eleven percent. We had people that loved that beer. But, we sold that at eight ounces at a time. D Bagby: Yeah, but we had it on tap for a year, also. J Bagby: (Unintelligible). D Bagby: They do A12. They do A12. Which is good. Downie: So, do you have much of a barrel aging program? J Bagby: We started one. We had, uh, we did twelve barrels and then we did another set with a different beer of just four barrels. All, most, all of that is gone now. So, we just brewed up Imperial Stout and we're getting ready to purchase thirty barrels. Just deciding what other beers we're going to put in those barrels and talk with the broker about making sure we get them as fresh as possible and which barrels they'll have available at that time. So that we're not filling barrels that have been sitting around drying out for months. They were nice and fresh. Downie: Yeah, you want to be able to extract something out of those barrels. (laughs) J Bagby: Exactly. But it's fun. I like doing it. But we do all straight up beer. We don't use any Wild Geese (blended whiskey) or-- D Bagby: Cupcakes. J Bagby: Or anything like that. (Downie and J Bagby laugh) So yeah, that’s fun. That's, to me, that's--I don't know, that gets to the uber fun side of brewing. You're like, “Oh, I'm going to put this thing in here.” Well, we had that beer that she was talking about in there for eighteen months and I just served it in Miami last weekend and it tasted phenomenal. Downie: (laughs) Love it when something works. J Bagby: Yeah. And sometimes they're don’t. That’s true. Knock on wood, we were pretty lucky with our barrels. Yeah. Downie: Okay. Well, I think I've exhausted all my questions. I learned a lot from you both. I've very, very, very much appreciated your time. D Bagby: Oh sure, our pleasure. J Bagby: If anything comes up or you're going through things and just feel free to email me or her and follow up. Downie: Come back with something that didn't record or transcribe or something. D Bagby: Don’t hesitate, we're happy to happy to help and also believe in what you're doing, and also-- J Bagby: Definitely. D Bagby: And also love to talk about all this kind of stuff, people that-- J Bagby: Yeah, it’s fun. D Bagby: People that are interested in it. Because, you know, we work so close to it, it's our life. But we are still--we are very passionate about it. And hopefully that comes through a little bit, even in construction stuff, and crazy things like that. Downie: I definitely see you have a future as working as a brewery construction consultant. (J and D Bagby laugh) Because really, you have gone through a lot of effort to educate yourselves and to do it right. And that kind of knowledge really should be shared. I mean, that's something I admire about Mike Hess. He wrote that, you know, ‘starting up a brewery’ webpage, but that still doesn't tap on everything. And especially, you know, doing something like this, of course every situation is going to change with every city you’re dealing with. D Bagby: But there are some basics that I think we would have really benefited from big time. And I think we would have heeded, we would have paid attention if somebody was like, “Hey, we just did this. Here's our experience. I'm here’s just how you can, you know, maybe avoid some of the pain, some of the pain points.” J Bagby: Yeah, the building part and you know, the construction management. I mean, I think part of that goes a lot. Like I can use the comparison as somebody's going to buy their brewing equipment and calling up three different equipment manufacturing and saying, “I want to buy a ten-barrel system, give me a quote,” and get three quotes and then just choose which one they want and order the equipment and get it sent. Well, I went up to the equipment manufacturer’s warehouse and talked with the engineers for two days before they even started drawing plans for my tanks. And then when they were about to start doing the finishing and they connection piping and all the process piping, I went back up there and stood in my tanks and looked at all the cores and looked at all the valves were and told them where I wanted to move things moved or changed. And the different specs on all--every single tank, not just the, the brewhouse stuff, but the cellar as well. Because you might get your tank and go like, “Why the heck is it like that?” And I kind of compare that to construction. Like we could have probably sat around and worked on other things and let them take forever to build this place and would have had something in the end, that would have been, but it wouldn’t been us and it wouldn’t been right. And that's just how we operate. So, I think while we spend a lot of time on that and we feel that it was absolutely one hundred percent necessary, some other people might be like, “Well, he didn't really need to do that. You could of—” D Bagby: Get by. J Bagby: But it's not us. I guess that was what I was trying to say. Downie: You have invested heavily in this, so why not have it right? But, Plan Nine (Plan Nine Alehouse) over in Escondido, I was over there one day and they didn't have any of their own beers on tap. And I said, “Gee, you don't have any of your own, I thought you were brewery.” And he said, “Well, we got new equipment and we've had continual leakage.” D Bagby: Oh no. Downie: And they, you know, this was like nine months that they had been dealing with it. So, you were exactly right in going--and I mean, even if you have to stand in your tanks and (unintelligible)— J Bagby: Well, and it’s kind of fun too. (laughs) Downie: Yeah, yeah. They will say, “Hey, I stood in my tank.” (all laugh) But, yeah. D Bagby: That’s too bad. Downie: So, something like that can go very, very wrong. J Bagby: Yeah, looking at welds and not (unintelligible). D Bagby: And also not having the support, because if you--when, you know, when you got your, whatever it is, whatever contractor you have or manufacturer having--actually, we're just dealing with the meeting before you got here or talking to a new point of sale company. And part of the reason is just a sheer lack of support on our current system. There's no one we can call and say, “Hey, you know our business, you know how we operate. These are the problems we're having.” There's just no one. And so, this other company that's--you absolutely have a person. So having your tanks leaking, you're losing money. You're, you know, that's literally money down the drain, and frustrating if you're a brewery owner, you’re a brewer, you definitely don't want to see your beer going down the drain. Yeah. Do you have the support you need from the manufacturer? Who's going to back up their work and if not, then pay a few more bucks and get somebody who will. J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Yeah. So, a lesson to live by. D Bagby: Yes, that’s so true. Well, thank you so much. Downie: Thank you. Yeah, let's see. Where's my stop button? (Downie and D Bagby laugh) https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the university. &#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. &#13 ; &#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.xml BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bagby, Jeff and Dande. Interview February 21, 2018. Description An account of the resource Bagby Beer Company emphasizes traditional style beers, a craft cocktail program, and a restaurant menu to complement their beers. Over the years, Bagby Beer featured highly admired and hard-to-find American and European beers such as Bierstadt Lagerhaus (Denver, CO) and Brasserie d’Orval (Belgium) to complement their lineup. Built on the site of a former car dealership (among other businesses), the Bagbys closely oversaw the construction from the ground up which opened in 2014. The site was also host to the Brewbies® cancer awareness beer festival (2015-2022) and the Low and Slow Lager Festival among other fund raising and educational events. Bagby Beer sold to Green Cheek Beer Company of Costa Mesa, CA in early 2024. Jeff and Dande Bagby are the founders and owners of Bagby Beer Company in Oceanside, CA. Holly Sweat is Publicist at Katalyst Public Relations. Jeff Bagby’s role was as head brewer and leading the on-site Beerleaders brewing education program. Jeff’s brewery experience includes Stone Brewing, White Labs, and Oggi’s Pizza and Brewing. His last brewery before opening Bagby Beer was Pizza Port, leading brewing operations for the chain from the Carlsbad location. During his time at Pizza Port, he led the team to win notable awards and medals such as the World Beer Cup and the Great American Beer Festival’s brewery and brewer awards multiple times. He is one of the most awarded San Diego region brewers, notably garnering more GABF Alpha King Challenge awards for best hoppiest beer in the United States than anyone to date (2005, 2010 and 2011.) He left Pizza Port in 2011 to devote his energy to finding a site for a brewery/restaurant in the San Diego North County beach area. With the sale of Bagby’s to Green Cheek Beer, he remains as the brewer and continues to focus on lagers and traditional styles. Dande Bagby worked as Director of Operations including marketing and customer experience. She designed much of the building. Her employment background includes the San Diego Zoological Society, education, environmental science, restaurant and craft beer bar management, and marketing and finance responsibilities for multimillion-dollar budgets at a Fortune 500 company. She remains active in the transition to Green Cheek Beer Company at this time. In their 2018 interview, Jeff and Dande discuss their introduction to craft beer; homebrewing; introduction of craft beer to the region; Jeff’s entry into the profession in the late 1990s; challenges and responsibilities of founding and building a brewery; packaging and distribution; charity work; competitions, judging, and awards; consumer education. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-053 Subject The topic of the resource Bagby Beer Company (Oceanside, Calif.) Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-21 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jeff Bagby Dande Bagby Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Holly Sweat Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a>. Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Brewchive(r) Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e6a0557324444a8c6a228b39903f5690.pdf a53157df08f2af558a0dc48546221b23 PDF Text Text JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 (Some early conversation deleted.) Sweat (00:05:30): Is this my copy or is this your copy? (Sweat referring to printed list of questions.) Downie: You can certainly have that because I am just going to let Jeff and Dande, you know, tell me what they want because that is just a list of ideas. You certainly do not have to address anything if you feel like it is giving away company secrets or you are just not comfortable or you just forget about it and tell me something else equally interesting and informative. That’s great. I love to record what I can get. So, you know, it sounds Dande like you maybe got into this a little after Greg did. Excuse me, Greg--I just said Greg. After Jeff did. So maybe we start with Jeff talking about how did he become interested in beer or how did he get into the beer industry and--? J Bagby (00:06:13): Okay. Yeah, so let's see. I started liking bitter beer, I don’t know, at high school, younger age. It just was something that my friends and I found--a couple of friends--who really liked the flavors. Liked the idea-Downie: Now, were you in this area or where were you--? J Bagby: Yeah, I was born and raised in Encinitas. So, San Diego native. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: So yeah, around here. And, actually when I graduated high school, I bought that friend in particular a homebrew set for his birthday. And so, we both messed around and that was my first homebrewing foray, whatever you want to call it. Downie: (00:07:01): Now where did you find your supplies for homebrewing up? J Bagby (00:07:03): Yeah, that is what I was going to say. So, you know, that's the age before the internet and cell phones and things of that nature. So, there is no-Downie: Do you want to give me an approximate year? J Bagby: Uh, (19)93. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: (19)92, (19)93, (19)94, somewhere in there. And, so we had known a little bit, we had heard a little bit, we had tried to go and fish beer from establishments even though we were not of age yet. But at homebrew shop you can buy anything without an ID. So, at least back then you could. So, we Homebrew Mart in Solana Beach. That's where I first met Yusef (Cherney) was actually the one that sold me the kit. Then he went on obviously to do his thing. So, kind of a cool connect there and then they kind of keep happening as time goes on. But, yeah, so we just messed around really. I mean, we re-read things, read books. Talked to brewers when we could, when we traveled, things like that. We ended up going to school together where we got more into it. We were doing all-grain batches and keeping a beer on tap at our house all the time, as well as beers like Sierra Nevada (Brewing Co.), Anchor Steam (Beer), Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 1 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 Original Pizza, Wicked, Red Nectar, some of the Sam(uel) Adams beers. I don’t, what else we could get our hands on that we felt was better. (laughs) Downie (00:08:29): Now was there a bottle shop anywhere nearby where you could (unintelligible)? J Bagby (00:08:34): There was a few. There was in Encinitas and downtown there was Cork and Keg (Cork and Keg Liquors). There was a couple in sort of the Kearny Mesa area that were known for having, you know, hundreds of bottles and typically they were not very good. But we did not necessarily know that at the time (Downie laughs) because we didn’t know what we were tasting and not tasting. Downie (00:08:51): Right. Yeah. J Bagby: I did not know that some of these beers, well, they'd been sitting around on these shelves warm for, you know, a couple of years. Some of them survived perfectly fine. And most of them, you know, like, “Oh, that's what that tastes like, that's kind of weird”. So, when we can find fresh things or more exciting flavors, that was obviously a fun thing. And yeah, just like, I think anybody did back in the nineties, when you found a new bottle of beer, you kept it, or you kind of talked about it and told your friends, “Hey, I tried this, blah-blah-blah.” It was, you know, I was rating beer before there was the internet, before there was, you know, these things that we are so attached to. So yeah, that is kind of where the appreciation started and, you know, throughout college, like I said, wherever, I would go and travel, try to seek out breweries, brew pubs, if it was possible to talk to a brewer and get, you know, whatever information I could, you know. “What kind of grain did you use this? What kind of hops are in this? What is your process for this? And, oh, what size system do you have?” And, you know, it was fun to do. And I was fun to go to cities that had older, richer brewing cultures than San Diego, you know? Back then there was not even probably ten breweries in San Diego at the time. Especially none that we had real easy access to. The easiest one for, for me, ended up being Solana Beach Pizza Port (Pizza Port Solana Beach). Just because I had met people there and met the brewers there. I went there all the time and were buying homebrew supplies from down the street. So, as it grew, you know, I finished school, came back home. I worked summers at the YMCA in Encinitas running their summer camp programs. Youth summer camp programs. So, I was heavily involved in that. But I always really liked--still liked beer. Still went to festivals and— Downie: What was your degree in? J Bagby: It was communications, social science degree. You know, honestly, I just wanted to get done in the school. It is not really my thing. Downie (00:11:04): But you completed it, so “Yay” for you. J Bagby (00:11:07): Yeah, yeah, I can say I have a degree. Whoop. (D Bagby laughs) So yeah, came back home, worked that job or some aspect of it for a summer. And then I was hoping to stay on. I’d had several--I've worked there since I was fifteen (years old). So, I had years of experience, knew the program, knew everything and anything about it. So, it was hoping, well, maybe this will be a full-time job, because the program had grown and grown and grown in the time that I've worked there. But they didn't have a position. Good old nonprofits. So, I started just looking for a job. I was living in Cardiff with some friends and I needed money. I needed something to do. So, through the YMCA, I had a commercial Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 2 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 driver's license to drive kids around, drive big old buses. So, I looked into driving jobs because they paid pretty well. And I could probably get one quick. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: You know, the degree did nothing for me, so. (laughs) D Bagby: Well, it sounds like you didn’t really want it, too. J Bagby: Well, I mean, it's not like you go, like, what industry are you going to be like? “Yeah. I have a communications degree from UC Santa Barbara,” like there, so? How's that going to help us do blahblah-blah. There was no technology jobs. There was no social media jobs. There was no— Downie: Exactly. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) I was, I kept going into radio or like news or— Downie: (00:12:28): (speaking at the same time) But it would have taken time to get employed, and you were saying you needed work now. J Bagby: Exactly. Downie: Which is certainly understandable. J Bagby: Exactly. D Bagby: So, think about that before we get the degree. (laughs) Just kidding. (laughs) J Bagby (00:12:36): So let's pay attention and talk about themselves once it’s their turn. (all laugh) D Bagby: Just saying! J Bagby: So anyway, let's see, let's see, oh, came across the job, driving job for Stone Brewing Company. And I remembered that I had been in Solana Beach the very first night they'd ever poured a beer and I'd met Greg (Koch) and Steve (Wagner) and tasted the beer. And I was like, “Oh, this would be great.” You know, I remember them, it's cool to see that they, you know, are still going and are making beer and need a driver. So, I just interviewed with Greg and told him my whole story. And he was like, “Well, obviously you're super overqualified. (Downie laughs) So, you know, you have the job.” And it was fun. It was interesting to see some side of the bar and restaurant and beer industry that I'd never seen before. Learning some of the weird rules that are still in laws that are still in effect today and delivered beer. Drove beer truck for three months. (00:13:40): And Steve and I were at a festival. I would always hang back after I was done and talk with the brewers and see what they were making and see what was coming on and things like that. And Steve was like, “Well, we need another body in the brewery. We need somebody else.” And I was like, “Yeah, sure. I'd love to.” I was like, “Who do I give these truckies to?” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So I actually found the guy that took my position as a driver. And he's still my Stone rep(resentative) today. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 3 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 Downie: Oh my gosh. J Bagby: Yeah. I still work for Stone in different capacity now, obviously. But yeah, he was a bartender at one of our accounts, he was actually at Pizza Port and he's like, “Oh, how's it going over there?” And “What's it like?” and I'm like, “Well, if you're interested, you could come check this out.” (00:14:27) He was a bartender, so he could still bartend and do that. And so, yeah, he came over and I taught him the routes and boom, he was the driver and I moved into the brewery. So, I learned there, primarily from Lee Chase and Steve Wagner. Their methods to brewing, I'll say, which I still today, I think if you ask about mentors on here, definitely those two guys are some of the first. And they gave me a lot of introductions into people like Skip Virgilio, Yusef Cherney, Jack White, Chris White, Gina and Vince Marsaglia, where I spent hours in their restaurant. Several other people that are still working in beer today, and still active. And, you know, we all kind of, you know, kind of go, “Yep, you were there,” you know, when you have these people that have been open for five minutes. (Downie laughs) Not to say it's bad, but you know, it's nice to have that kind of a bond and that kind of a connection to people that remember when there wasn’t all the things that there are today. Downie: (00:15:33): When it was a struggle. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yeah, big time. Downie: (speaking at the same time) I mean, not that it isn’t a struggle now to run a business and to start having all that, just to be in the first, the forefront of things. J Bagby: Oh yeah, there used to-Downie: There is still some special barriers. J Bagby (00:15:47): When I was living in Cardiff, in driving for Stone and then actually working in the brewery for Stone, we would go to events like every weekend. Every Friday and Saturday night, you know? Because the sales reps are like, “Hey, can you guys come down and help promote?” Or, you know, whenever we went to somewhere and be like, “Hey, do you have Stone beer on tap?” And they'd be like, “What the hell is Stone?” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) You know, and now you can't find somebody that doesn't know what that is. Downie: Right. J Bagby: And back then, it was totally different because people weren't paying attention. People didn't care. There was five tap handles and all five of them are taken up by mass-produced beer, you know? The Heinekens, Amstel Light, Guinness, New Castle, Bud, Bud Light, Coors Light, Miller Light, not Corona, it wasn't going on tap back then but it was in the bottle under the bar. So, it was tough. It was tough for them to gain ground and getting space. And because they came out with a Pale Ale, they were in an immediate competition with Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, which had already, you know, been around for ten years at the time. So, you had that battle. You have this well, “What's, what's different from you? These guys have been doing it for a long time. They make this Hoppy Pale Ale. We've had it on tap. What's the difference?” So yeah, a lot of early struggles, a lot of, you know, almost telling--I like to say this, like Stone told people what to drink. When they came out with a beer like Arrogant Bastard and they came out with a beer like Stone IPA, and it came out with Smoked Porter that came out with these beers that Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 4 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 no one was used to drinking and they were like, “No, you're going to like this, because this is what we have to offer. (00:17:15) And people would taste it. And I think combined shock, new flavors, new tastes, things they'd never had before, they really grabbed onto it. And they were like, “No, this is, this is cool. I really like this.” Not necessarily knowing why or knowing what about the beer that they were actually tasting. Just that it was exciting and it was new. So, I learned to brew on that, (laughs) professional thirty barrel, professional brewhouse pretty quickly. Helped create the first Stone Barley Wine, Old Guardian. Lee and Steve and I each did five-gallon test batches. And then we, we tasted them all and created a recipe. So, that was fun. And few anniversary beers, you know, when they were taking Stone IPA and Double Stone IPA and Triple Stone IPA for the anniversary beers. Those beers just blew people's minds back then because no beer had had that kind of aroma and power on the hop side, you know? (00:18:20) And they're not unlike a lot of West Coast IPAs that are still made today. So that was exciting. The Y(MCA) came calling somewhere in that first year, year and a half that I was in the brewhouse. I got hired at Stone in September of (19)97. And I worked there through sometime in (19)99. Okay. I'm trying to remember exactly when, but I did go back to the Y full-time because they actually have a full-time job for me and they needed the help. So, over the summers I would work a hundred-plus hours a week because I’d work a full-time job at Stone Brewing. And then I would go back over to the Y and help them with everything that they needed for the next day or for the next week of things I hired and trained. Yeah, it was crazy. Monitored staff, bus drivers, all these things while I was still working at Stone. (00:19:13) Left Stone to do the Y thing after one of the summers, because I was like, oh, it's too much. And they were going to give me a little bit more money at Y. So, I went and did that and then got stomped on over there. Got passed over. And I was like, “You know what? I'm done with this. I've given my life to you guys and saved you guys several summers and I'm over it.” So, went back to beer, got hired at White Labs (Brewing Co.) in San Diego. I had known--by this time I had known tons of people in the industry. I had done festivals for Stone. I had worked for them in all sorts of different capacities and also knew the Pizza Port people really well. Downie (00:19:54): So what year--when did you get hired on White Labs? J Bagby (00:19:58): That was probably (19)99? Downie: Okay. J Bagby: (19)99, 2000? I can’t—I’m not positive on that. But somewhere in there. Because I definitely left--I left both the Y I think the--right before the 2000 summer started because they had made some really bad decisions and it bothered me. (Downie laughs) So, let's see. I worked at White Labs for-Downie: As a brewer? J Bagby: No, as a sales kind of yeast consultant. Answer questions for people, take orders, you know. Downie (00:20:34): Was this at their--where they are now? Candida Street or--? J Bagby: (00:20:38): No, this was the location before that. (Silverton Avenue, San Diego location.) Downie: Okay. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 5 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 J Bagby: A little--it's kind of an interesting place like offices on front, warehouse in the back, but much, much smaller than where they are now. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: (00:20:50) But it was cool. It was definitely educational. It was neat to get to know Chris and Lisa (White) better as well as one of their other then-partners, Chris Mueller. I had already known all of them and met all of them so, it was kind of nice to get a job and work with them. And it was okay. It just wasn’t--it wasn’t exciting for me. And I wanted to get back into the brewhouse and I wanted to get back working with actual beer. So, kept in touch with Pizza Port and the people there, the whole time. I got hired at Solana Beach as an assistant brewer. And so, I was an assistant brewer there and bartender there-Downie: And who was head brewer at the time? J Bagby: Tomme (Arthur), at the time. But we had become friends, gosh, right after he got hired there because I knew the brewer before him. And then they're like, “Oh, that's the new brewer.” So, I just like introduced myself and said, “Hey, I really like these beers here and blah-blah-blah” So we just got to chatting and hanging out and doing all sorts of different things. And you know, even when I was working for Stone, we connected just because it's, you know, another brewery in town. (laughs) And back then— Downie: (00:22:00): Well, it shows the value of networking— J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: And knowing people, it makes a big difference. J Bagby (00:22:06): There's also a way to learn back then, you know? Steve and Lee were great and taught me a lot, but also learned a lot from Tomme. And I also learned a lot from a ton of other breweries that I met back in the late nineties and early two thousands. All across the state and even into Arizona. The guys at Four Peaks (Brewery Co.), still good friends of mine, even though they sold their company for who knows how much, they won’t tell anybody. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) (00:22:30) Places like Marin Brewing (Company), Anderson Valley (Brewing Company), Russian River (Brewing) now, when he was still in Temecula back then. Downie: He was Blind Pig (Brewing) back then. J Bagby: Yeah, I had met him (Vinnie) and Natalie (Cilurzo) back then. Untold numbers of, you know, going to the Great American Beer Festival (GABF) for the first time was probably my biggest eye-opener to all of that and meeting more and more people because now there was the whole U.S. and all the brewers in the U.S. in one room and back then it was easy. You could go and talk to people. I was working for a brewery at the time and that was 1997. It was my first GABF. And I'll never forget going up to people and trying beers and went, “Oh my gosh, that's awesome,” you know? And just making that acquaintance. And I know a lot of those people still today that I met that year at that GABF. So really cool stuff. (00:23:29): And that just kept building, you know? Every time I could go to a conference, every time I could go to another out-of-town festival. Meet more people. (laughs) So, you know, at Solana, I was there for probably two or three years doing assistant brewing and bartending. And then a Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 6 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 position opened up. I had met Tom Nickel through all of this too. Because he was good friends with Tomme. He was a part of the early Ballast Point (Brewing Company) and Home Brew Mart. Tom and I are still very good friends today and Tomme. And so, he said, “Hey.” He was working for Stuft (Pizza and Brewing) at the time before it was Oggi’s. And then when it became Oggi’s, they had one in Vista that opened, their brewer was leaving. And so he's like, “Hey, if you want a head brewing job,” I was like, “Hell yeah.” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) (00:24:19) So, took it. I had interviewed with a couple others. It was just, well I interviewed at Kona and just decided I didn't want to go and live on an island. (laughs) So, and there was an opportunity in my backyard, so, why not take that? So, did that for a while. That was fun. That was really the first time I got to see my influence on brewing, make a difference for somebody's beers or somebody's restaurant or somebody's beer culture, you know? It was the first time I'd won medals on my own with my own beers. You know, we'd done very well on Solana Beach. But this was cool because it was like my stuff. And worked with Tom (Arthur). He became their corporate brewer for a short time up in San Clemente. And I worked at that location for a while until Pizza Port Carlsbad had an opening for a head brewing position and that was a bigger brewhouse. (00:25:14) That was more beer and it was more money and it was Pizza Port was kind of my first forte. So, I went back to that and ran, within a year, was running all the brewing operations on all of their pubs. Helped them open Ocean Beach. Hired, trained, promoted a ton of different brewers who are still in the brewing industry today. Yeah, you’ve got Yiga Miyashiro, the head brewer at Saint Archer (Brewing). Greg Peters, who's the head of Barrel Program there. Ignacio Cervantes, who was the head brewer of Carlsbad after I left and then took over (Pizza Port) Bressi Ranch and is now working for a new company in San Diego (Chula Vista Brewing). Noah Regnery, who also part of that company and Brandon Edwards is also a part of that company. (00:26:05) All guys that were head brewers at Pizza Port went on to several different breweries and have all kind of come back together in one way. I'm sure there's other people. (laughs) Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: But it was a good experience and, you know, going all the way back to my Stone days, you know, Lee and I worked in this warehouse by ourselves, you know? Day in, day out. So, you get in these conversations, you're running, you know, a four head making bottling machine for eight hours while you're filtering a beer, you know? Like, you know? You are brewing, you get into conversations and you know, both of us were like, “Yeah, I really would like to own my own place at some point,” you know? And my thoughts at that time were, I'd really like to just have a beer bar or have a place because I've enjoyed that aspect of it. (00:26:54) I enjoyed teaching people about beer, telling people about new styles and new things that were coming out or that the Pizza Port had just come out with. So, I said, “I don't know what, I just really want to my own place. And Lee was like, “Yeah, me too, me too.” So, it's funny that both of us have had that come trueDownie: Yeah. J Bagby: Over time. But in the Pizza Port years, having, you know, kind of pulled from my YMCA experiences with hiring and training people and building sort of a management approach to running the bars at the Pizza Port, they were, for lack of a better term, they were pretty chaotic and not very well managed. And the companies were, even though they were making money, hand over fist, they weren't making as much as they could because they were losing money, hand over fist because of their bar staff. 00:27:41) So, I tightened up that. I taught their bar staff and what, you know, beer education programs, you know, you had to spend a day in the brewery with me, all of these things. And that carried on to all of the locations. And in doing that and forging that, that's when, you know, I started having Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 7 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 conversations with Dande. We had met and I showed her--actually I was still working at Oggi’s when we met. And, you know, started talking about, well, “What do we want, what do you want to do with this? What would you do with this?” And I was like, “Oh, I want to open my own place.” And it was funny because people would come in while I was brewing in Carlsbad, say, “Oh, we're going to open a brewery.” And I was like, “Oh, cool.” Well, this is, you know, “I've been doing this for a really long time and I'm not ready yet, but you know, good on you.” Or somebody would come in who had just opened a brewery and I'd want to help support them. (00:28:32) So, we had guest beers at Pizza Port, we would put their beer on tap and, you know? I would talk it up and everything. And then it was funny because by the time I left Carlsbad, I didn't have that approach. I was like, “Okay, bring your beers in and then I'll taste them and we'll see what we can do.” Yeah, “We'll give you some feedback or we'll see if we can get you into rotation or not,” you know? We have a big board, there's a ton of trends, and there's a ton of spots. They're almost always taken whatever the case was, but I wasn't as eager to just blindly accept the keg as I had been in the past, when there was, you know, “Let's promote local beer and let's get this scene going.” And it transferred all the way into here because now there's even more breweries. (00:29:15) But now that I'm one of those people that's trying to sell beer to people. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah. J Bagby: It's always so-- I get it. And, you know, hopefully, you know, the things that we had talked about before we opened and the things that we wanted to do is largely what you see today. When you come here and it's not just a beer aspect, it's a food aspect, it's a space and feel. It's also our cocktail and spirits program, wine program. All the things that we do here are things that we talked about ten years ago. Of course, it took us a very long time to get to that point. And I think we've surpassed many mountains in that process of getting to where we are, which is something that feels really good. But it's also a constant struggle when there's, you know, things that we deal with every day. (00:30:09): And somebody asked me the other day, “Oh, would you go back and do it again?” Yeah, I would. Hopefully I know a little bit more. (all laugh) As Dande was talking about earlier with managing the construction, but it's been a crazy, crazy road. It's been fun to have been a part of San Diego beer, to have kind of put my efforts into not only just promoting the people that I worked for, but training other people into that and, you know, really teaching and promoting what good beer is and making sure that I did everything I could to make sure that San Diego was seen that way and perceived that way across the country and across the world. And I believe that I still do that today, even though there's one hundred and fifty or what odd breweries in town. I still make my efforts to make sure that that happens if that makes sense. Downie (00:31:07): Yeah, it does. J Bagby: Cool. Downie: So, what made you decide to basically take down Continental Motors? (J and D Bagby laugh) What made you decide on taking this piece of property and rather than taking over-J Bagby: Good question. Downie--a building that you could just kind of refurbish? J Bagby (00:31:25): Yeah. Well, I kind of still ask myself that question a lot. (D Bagby laughs) D Bagby: Depends on how good the day is going. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 8 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 J Bagby: That 3,000 square foot warehouse looks pretty cool somedays. (laughs) No, we had a location in Encinitas that we were pretty fond of. I wanted to be the first person to make beer and Encinitas since there was one little tiny spot that was open for like nine months in downtown Encinitas called the Red Kettle. D Bagby: The (19)80s? J Bagby: And it was like (19)89 to (19)90, something like that, I think it was open. And sounded like the guy didn't know a whole lot about what he's doing. And it would be interesting to see if you find any more information on that. Downie: There’s very little on the Red Kettle. I’ve been looking. J Bagby: (00:32:07): There's like one article you can still pull up online. Vince Marsaglia, I remember he'll tell me stories. He's told me stories about going in there and talking to the guy about brewing. But anyway, I wanted to be like, “No, I want to open up a brewery and want to, you know, it's not going to be a restaurant with the little kid in the back.” Like, yeah, I want to do that in Encinitas ‘cause Encinitas neighborhood made it look cool there.(32:30) But building situation fell through. We had spent some time, even some money getting people together. We had met with everyone at the city of Encinitas. So, we knew it was going to be a bit of an uphill battle with what's going down there on the Coast. It was on Coast Highway in Encinitas, big, beautiful, gorgeous eighty-three hundred square foot building with a wooden barrel ceiling and twelve-foot brick walls. Gorgeous place. (00:32:58) And the landlord--we had never actually spoke with the landlord. We had only spoke with his representative and he had edged us along the way. “Yeah, that's good. It's good. Yeah. That's no, he's, he wants to do this.” And we put in our LOI (Letter of Intent), you know, spent, like I said, I spent time with the city. This is what we're thinking about doing. Architects, all sorts of things. Structural engineering, because the building's old. It was an old Safeway or something, I think. D Bagby: (33:23) It was a grocery store. J Bagby: Yeah, it was a grocery store at one time. That's why. And all of a sudden we just weren't hearing anything back from the rep. So, I just called them up and, “Dude, what's going on?” Like we were going forward, we think this is happening. We've heard nothing. And he just basically said, “No,” without, you know, I tried to reach out to the landlord. (00:33:48) The owner said, “Hey, just meet me. Just--let's have a conversation.” Could never get there. And from what I hear, that guy's kind of a maniac, so I'm kind of glad we didn't get in that situation. (D Bagby laughs) But I do miss the idea of being there in that building and being in Encinitas. I think that would have been really, really cool. But-Downie: As a hometown boy. J Bagby: (34:12) (laughs) But, we took that setback. Or, yeah, it was a setback, because we were, you know, not that we'd put all our eggs in that basket, but we definitely— D Bagby: (00:34:25): Several months. J Bagby: But, yeah, we spent several months of time on it. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 9 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 D Bagby: We kind of mentally moved into it too. You start to really put yourself there and how to Jeff, as you mentioned earlier, like, we had been talking about these ideas that you now see here for a long time. And so, you start to sort of layer those ideas over the space and figure out how things might go. And, it was really--it was a huge disappointment. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: But we got over it pretty quickly and moved on and... J Bagby (00:34:51): Yeah. So, we decided to, not to stop, but to kind of regroup. We got married and after we got married, we decided to enlist the help of a commercial real estate. So, we, through some friends we found a really good broker. And he gave--started just giving me--I met with him--he gave me no less than I think a hundred properties throughout the county to look at. And we had already found out a little bit on our own through some other connections, you know. Basically, no one's going to give you any cash. If you're in a strip mall, you're going to be paying even though, your rent might be lower, you're going to be paying other fees that make that rent go back up. And they basically only take national conglomerate stores that have very, very deep pockets these days. Not too many private strip malls out there taking breweries and first-time owners and let alone, “Oh, you want to open a restaurant and a brewery? Okay, yeah. High risk, high risk. No, don't do it, all those things.” (35:49) So, we sought out to find private owners and properties that started to fit what we what we had or what we wanted on there, which was coastal North County, enough space for a restaurant, enough space to have a decent sized brewery, and a space that will allow for indoor-outdoor dining. We love the aspect of letting people or giving the people the opportunity to eat outside in this gorgeous weather that we have almost year-round. So, I'd never thought about Oceanside, but I knew that anything in between Del Mar and Carlsbad was going to be extremely expensive and extremely difficult to find. Especially for the uses that we wanted to do. You know, we were trying not to have a conditional use permit. (00:36:38): We're trying not to deal with the (California) Coastal Commission. We're trying to get into a spot where we could build or remodel, I should say, for the most part. Downie (36:47): Yeah (laughs). J Bagby: But pretty much ended up re-building. If you saw what we did to this place before we rebuilt it— Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: We basically tore it down. Anyway, he gave me a list of seven, eight properties in Oceanside here. So, I just grabbed my camera, my notebook, and my bike and rode them all. And I came across this one and it was--you could go all the way around it, but you couldn't see much. Where the brewery is now, were solid roll-down doors. It was their maintenance garage. Up front was a showroom, so, I could look in the windows there. That building to the south, you can kind of look in there too, but you couldn't tell what was exactly going on over here. (00:37:28): You can see a little bit, all closed, looked like it had been, somebody had moved out. And so, in my head it just started clicking and I'm like, “Oh, what if that was there? And what if we put, you know, the brewery in here? What if we did this here?” I took, I don't know, fifty pictures of the place looked at the other properties and went home and told her. I'm like, “I found it.” And she's like, “What are you talking about?” Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 10 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 D Bagby: You actually called me from the space. (J Bagby laughs) J Bagby: I’m like, “It's an old car dealership.” She’s like, “You're fucking insane.” I’m like, “Get in a car, come down here.” (all laugh) D Bagby: It’s basically what happened. J Bagby: (laughs) So, yeah, we just kind of went from there. We told our broker, “Hey, can you, you know—" super sensitive about contacting the realtor—realtor rep, landlord, anything like that. D Bagby (00:38:14): Because of our experience in the industry. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: We wanted to make--just kind of proceed cautiously. And we did not have our hopes up. We had no idea what they would--what their response would be to any kind of inquiry. J Bagby: (00:38:21): We obviously originally thought that they wanted car dealerships to take it over again. Just because they were set up that way. They have the lifts, they had the excess parking. They had, you know, frontage on South Coast Highway. There's seven other places, you know? So, we thought that's what they were going for. And they originally, they kind of said, “Yeah,” because use is that, it'd be easy for their somebody to just take it over. Downie: Right. J Bagby: And a couple of inquiries they had because the space was so big and nobody wanted it all. They would want just that building or just the parking lot, or just part of this main building, main parcel. So, I said, “Well, we're kind of interested in all of that.” (laughs) And so anyway, the original conversation with rep-between-rep, the idea of a brewery got brought up by the rep from here and unsolicited-D Bagby: By their broker, yeah. J Bagby: Unsolicited from our broker at all. (00:39:20) And I was like, “Yes. Okay, cool.” And so, I'm like, “Hey, can we get in it? Can we look around and see what's going on?” So, the very first day we came to look at it and the landlords was here, the owners were here. And they wanted to meet us and they wanted to hear about what we wanted to do. And if we thought the space would work. And they're still friends of ours today. They still come in here and eat. His father was from Bamberg, Germany, which is a huge brewing scene in Germany and malts. There's two big malt companies in Bamberg. Then I said, “Well, I buy malt from Bamberg.” (Downie and D Bagby laugh) So, we had this, you know, this back and forth. Their son is into beer. And he really liked the idea of the legacy of the property that his father had started going into another family business of some kind. I think that probably in the end was what attracted them the most to us. But we poured our hearts out like, “Hey, this is what we want to do. And we totally get it. Like, you know, we've never opened a business. This is a huge spot. We have to raise a ton of money.” All these things, but we really want to do it.” And they went for it. D Bagby (00:40:34): Much to their credit, honestly. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 11 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: They took a big risk on us. And, it's a big point of pride for Jeff and I-J Bagby: Definitely. D Bagby: (40:41) -- to count them among legitimately among friends. And, we're just, we're so grateful to them for just being open-minded. It was their family's business that was here and then that they had to close and they still own the property. And they, you know, we have a long long-term lease and several options. So, we don't own the space. I'm sure the property will stay in their family forever, which I think is fine. It's perfect. But they just really--they were very interested in us as people and-J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: (00:41:13): --what our vision was and what we wanted to do and how we wanted to do it. And I think that aligned, even though they're totally different industries, it really aligned with their values. And, yeah, much to— Downie: Their European background. D Bagby: Yeah, definitely that that's probably part of it. (laughs) But I remember when they finally agreed, it was sort of like, obviously it's exciting, but it's also instantly terrifying. Downie: Yeah. D Bagby: You don't--And we didn't even realize at the time what we had just done, I don't think. (Downie D Bagby laugh) J Bagby (00:41:46): It took me six weeks to get the lease exactly where we wanted it. D Bagby: At least. J Bagby: And it's like, I think it's sixty pages of like, eight, nine-point font. It's like line-by-line and you just, you have to know, “Okay, what does this lawyerese mean?” And then go and read through and go, “Okay, no, that's what we don't agree with. Here's the change we need,” you know? And so, we just-the back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And then we start with contractors interviewing contractors, and that is a whole fiasco in and of itself because they're intense. And they realized that in the end, throughout this thing, I think they realized that their relationship is never going to be a great one, just because of the nature of the industry. D Bagby: It can’t. J Bagby: It just can't. There's too many variables and there's too much money and there's too much time involved for--I've never met anybody who was like, “Yeah, I loved my GC. My project went amazing.” They're full of shit. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 12 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 D Bagby: It’s like a disposable relationship in a weird way. J Bagby: Yeah, you just-D Bagby: You need them, they you need but then it's over and we're done. We don't want to see you again kind of thing. It's terrible, but that's just kind of the nature of it. Downie (00:42:53): Now did your general have any background in building a brewery? J Bagby (00:42:55): (speaking at the same time) No, in restaurants. D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) In restaurants. J Bagby: Yeah, restaurants, and commercial or retail. But mostly restaurants and bars is what we were attracted to him for. D Bagby: Small company also-J Bagby: Smaller company. Had the reputation of being able to do something like this D Bagby: Had worked with the architect— J Bagby: Yeah, he had worked with our architect on a project before and yeah, I mean the architect firm went down in flames pretty quick. (D Bagby laughs) I realized, oddly enough, we got an apology email from him last week, which was-D Bagby: A little late. J Bagby: Frustrating two years later. But, yeah, they just weren't equipped and we didn't know that they weren't equipped. D Bagby: We didn't know enough to know that. J Bagby: Yeah. And then, you know, I spent countless hours going to the counters at the city to talk to the engineers, to talk to the-D Bagby: The building inspectors. J Bagby: The building inspectors and just going back and forth. “No, we need this. Okay.” So, because I'm trying to facilitate--we're trying to facilitate this project and keep it moving. (00:43:57) And there's obviously no one in the world has any incentive, but, or the most incentive than us to get it done. And so, we're just, like she said, we just took it on. We project managed, we--every day, we'd come here and walk through and see what was done wrong or what hadn't been done or why isn't, so-and-so working today, you know? And part of that was on the GC, part of that was on their architect, and they both fell down. The architect first and then the GC. We went through five superintendents here on our project to the general contractor. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 13 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 Downie: Oh dear. J Bagby (44:30): And by the end I was like, “Him or no one else.” And so, we got this last guy just to get through and get our building final then and everything. But you name a discipline, you name a part or a section or a wall. I spent time on it. She spent time on it. It's--so now, you know, we're like, we're telling them, we're like, “You guys get to go, you guys get to pack up your shit and leave.” And we get to turn around and actually do what we wanted to do six months ago, or, you know, a year ago. D Bagby: When we started construction, yeah. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: (00:45:07) When we thought we’d be done, especially. J Bagby: We, you know, we need to spend time on--I mean, we're still taking on investors, but we have to start the project. We're still searching out for investors. We're still trying to find our key executive management team and how the hell we're going to run this place. I'm still trying to figure out how to get the rest of the brewery finished off and actually making beer because we didn't want to open without our own beer. And it was just, you know, just kept on, I didn't, I think I lost forty pounds and that last like six months of the other projects before we opened, just because I could never eat, I could never sleep. And I was constantly doing something on a project that sent my stress levels through the roof. So, it was very-D Bagby: And then you get to operate your business. J Bagby: Yeah, and then you open and you know, there's five hundred people here on a Saturday and they all want food and beer. Downie: Excellent. D Bagby (00:45:53): Which is great, yeah. I mean, there is that question. I mean, you just, you don't know until it happens when you open the door for the first time. Is anybody going to be here? And I know that sounds ridiculous when you think of the size of this and even just people curious. Obviously, there will be people that are curious that are cruising by, but you really don't know. I mean, it is, you don't--you don't really let yourself think that because you can't. You just have to continue to stay true to your goal and your vision. And once you start, you can't stop. I mean, it's go time. And so, when you do finally open the doors, it's amazing. It is. It's kind of amazing that people are here. And I remember the first, like week we were open, it felt really strange that there were people here I didn’t know. (00:46:37) I was like, “Who are these people? Oh, shoot. They're supposed to be here. That's right.” (Downie laughs) It was just very weird. And we had spent so much time here over the, you know, proceeding two years that it was--it was home. We were here three hours to one, the number of hours, or four hours to one, the number of hours we would spend at home for sure. And so, this was home. And so, we knew every contract, we knew every subcontractor. We knew everybody. And they knew us. And so, when it was time to let strangers in, (laughs) it was weird. But, you know, you get over that pretty quickly. J Bagby: Yeah. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 14 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 D Bagby: Because they are spending money. Downie (00:47:14): Of course, talking about the ‘curious’ issue, are you going to come back? D Bagby: Yeah, of course. Downie: Because just a one-time visit isn't going to keep you going. D Bagby (00:47:21): That’s right. Yeah, that's right. And that's still something that's, you know, on the operational side that we are always striving for. We want to be that place that people are like, “I can't wait to go back there.” We're still young though. And I that's the counterpoint to that is first of all, never stop trying. I mean, there's always something we can do better, always something we can refine. Always a better way or a more efficient way or a way that's going to make our guests happier. So, we are always pushing. We never, ever stopped. And I don't think we ever will. That's just our personalities. And luckily, it's the same--those personality traits are reflected our management team. So, they all feel the same way too. There's absolutely nobody on that team that is not completely there with us. Ready to just keep pushing and pushing and pushing. And our staff, it goes all the way to them. (00:48:09): The people that are attracted to a place like this to work here. They, you know, they like that it's family. They liked that it's unique and different. They like that we're always pushing the envelope, trying to come up with cool new things or new ways or whatever the case. And so, it starts to draw in people who are naturally attracted to that. And so, they have a really kind of an inherent flexibility that is critical, but we couldn't have scripted that. I didn't really realize that, but it is true. We are--we ask a lot of them. We ask them to be very nimble and to do something very different one day than they did the day before, because we're trying to— J Bagby: Sorry, I’ve got to go downstairs and talk to them for a minute. D Bagby: Okay. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: Okay, I'll be right back. I got to set up a potential account with some tasting. D Bagby: Doing some tasting. Do you want to bring them upstairs for a taste? J Bagby: You did ask a question and that was what attracted us to this? Just going to finalize that and say the space. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) D Bagby (00:49:09): Yeah, the space for sure was the deciding factor. But when he called me from here and I've told this story before, and he said--I asked, you know, the data, like, how big is it? What's going on? And when he started to rattle off the statistics, I'm like, in my mind, “There's no way this is going to happen. (Downie laughs) There's no way.” And then every little hurdle you cross over, you knock that domino down and then pretty soon you're signing your lease. And it still doesn't really feel real until then. And then even then it doesn't feel real until— Downie (00:49:38): But you've been disappointed once already so-- Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 15 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 D Bagby: Yeah. Downie: So it was kind of like you don't exactly want to get too invested— D Bagby (00:49:44): Once you sign the lease though, and you are a personal guarantee on that. It's yours. And so, then it's like, what do you do with that? Because there is a certain amount of money that if you just--even if you decide to never do anything with it, you're paying on your own personal account for that. So, and we knew that it was a big risk of the landlords, the owners. We knew that we wanted to not disappoint them too, as another layer in all of this. But I really didn't believe it was going to happen until it started happening. (laughs) And then the train was going and there was no stopping it, which is good. Downie (00:50:16): Yeah. So, what about your background, Dande? As far, as you know, you said you worked in a Fortune 500 company. Well, what's your path that got you here? And to actually be supportive of something that you could have very easily said, “No, I don't want to do this.” D Bagby (00:50:31): Yeah. I still do say that sometimes. No, I'm just kidding. No, my background is really weird. But somehow it all sort of feeds into to all the things that we do here. So, I worked in restaurants in high school and a little bit in college. I ended up working for a very small sort of family-run or just a couple of friends started the small kind of Mexican food chain. It was a kind of a spinoff from the Rubio’s chain. So, they had helped Ralph Rubio start Rubio's and they started their own thing. And so, I, you know, started working there my first restaurant job and worked my way up into management. And I'm still friends with the owners of that. They've since sold it all off, but it was really exciting to be a part of a small, very small and growing company. (00:51:18) When I first was hired by them, they had one location. And then ultimately, I think they had seven or eight. Not when I worked there, but at the end of the sort of end of the line for them. And what happened though, was that they set the bar really high. I mean, they treated this little single location, you know, eight hundred square foot taco shop. They treated it as though it was a corporate--very, very organized, very dialed in, very high-quality, high standards when it came to customer service and food service and all of that. Even though it was a walkup counter. So that was my only exposure to restaurants was that. And so, it really, it changed how I saw things, whether it was from a business perspective or from a restaurant perspective. And that was sort of, that became my benchmark, for how to be. How to be a manager, how to be managed, how to treat employees, all of that stuff began then. (00:52:17): And it was my first real job was there. And I worked there for many years while I was--and then I went to school--my degree is in biology from Cal State San Marcos (California State University San Marcos). Downie: My goodness. (laughs) D Bagby: Yeah. So, I was a molecular cell biology major. But, before that, I wanted to be a zoologist. So, I started at Palomar and my very first class, my very first semester of college at Palomar, was as zoology class. And it was just life science, check the box, get that out of the way. And I fell in love with it and it was everything. I loved it. It was--my instructor was amazing. I don't think she's alive anymore. Dr. Jessup was her name. And she was a genius and I just wanted to absorb a hundred percent of everything she could teach me, I wanted to learn it. (00:53:07) And so that kind of led me-- I worked for the Zoological Society of San Diego for about seven years. So, I left restaurants and did that and finished my degree at Cal State and left. And I taught biology and environmental science at the high school level. I Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 16 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 taught labs--biology labs--at the junior college level for a few years. And then ultimately worked for SDG&E (San Diego Gas & Electric Company) in their Environmental Science Department. And, that's about when I met Jeff. So, I had done all of this sort of teaching and I hadn't worked in a restaurant in a long time. And when he and I first met, he had, like he said, he had beer on tap, both at Oggi’s in Vista where he had been the head brewer and at Pizza Port Carlsbad. And I had always liked beer, but I knew absolutely nothing about it. It was completely foreign to me. I didn't even--it didn't really occur to me that it was something that you could learn about. It just sort of was a thing that existed. And of course that's--couldn't be more wrong (Downie laughs) even then in 2005, even then. And so he's like, “Well come and let's taste some beer at in Vista.” So, we went out there and he just did the tasting, not a flight. I mean he pulled--we had tasters of every beer that was on tap. There must've been a dozen beers or more. And he kind of just lined them up how you would want somebody to kind of learn about beer. And he just was like, “Okay, what does it look like? What does it smell like? What does it taste like? Where do you think that's coming from? What is that? Did you do--?” you know? I remember specifically the hefeweizen he's like, “Do you think we added anything to make that taste like that?” And I was like, “Well, yeah, you probably added some fruit or you added some spice.” And absolutely not. Just from the yeast, and that tied into my biology background. Downie (54:58): Right. D Bagby: And understanding sort of a little bit about, you know, yeast chemistry, yeast metabolism. And then it started to click. I was like, “Okay, this is cool.” And then of course that led into ales and lagers and how they're, you know, metabolized differently. And all of the life cycle and all of that stuff. And so that really kind of itched, or what do you say, like “Scratch that itch” or whatever that science-y stuff. I really, really appreciated on the cellular level, which I had kind of departed from working in environmental science. (00:55:32) So, that was a really huge eye-opener and that was kind of it for me. So, we tasted through all the beers and that created this sort of framework for me that I still rely on today. That's just sort of styles and, you know, parts of the world. And, you know, this is like this. And that's like, you know, whether it's hops in English IPA versus an American IPA and why and how, and, even just the physical I'm like, “I don't know what hop is. I have no idea.” So, he went and he grabbed a handful of hops and was like, “This is what they are. This is what they smell like. This is what they look like. This is where they're grown.” Of course, that led into hop harvest. And that led into fresh hop beer. And I remember specifically that season going down to-- because he still was bartending. (00:56:17) So, he had, he left Pizza Port or--excuse me, he left Oggi’s and Vista and he was head brewing in Carlsbad and he was still bartending at Solana Beach. And I lived in Cardiff at the time. And so, I would go visit him on his bartend. I think he would work Wednesday nights and same thing. He'd be like, “Well, taste this, have a taste of this.” And I specifically remember fresh hop beers that season because it was unlike anything I'd ever had before. They were--it was just amazing to me. It was this bouquet of--it really tasted like drinking flowers. And that was really exciting. So, every new experience was just something to be learned. Unlike Jeff, I loved school, I loved being a student. I loved studying and I still do. I still love to learn. So does he, but even in that, even in an academic setting, I loved at all. (00:57:05) And so it created this never-ending quest for information and knowledge and then that tied into experience. And so, when we would travel to whether it was in California or abroad or wherever, it creates this sort of, I don't know, structure, if you will. This kind of map or pathway for learning that, you know, whether it's about people or history or the ingredients and where they came from. And so that became, it became a passion of mine as well. And this was pretty close to right away. So, you know, within the first year or so of us dating, you know, we were going to events, we were traveling for beer. We were, you know, it just became part of our shared thing. But also, I loved learning from him too. And, yeah, and he's right. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 17 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 (00:57:57) We started talking about opening a place, or that he wanted to open a place, pretty quickly. I mean, it was certainly not something that was going to be happening anytime soon, but it was again part of the discussion. And so, when you're traveling somewhere, you're going--his family, his father's side is from Northern Arizona, Prescott. Little town called Prescott. So, you know, we were traveling out there once or twice a year to visit his grandfather and kind of hang out and there's Prescott Brewing Company. So, we'd go there and just kind of talk about whether it was the beers or the styles or the hop choices or whatever to--do you think how’s the service? Is that are--what would we do differently? What about the glassware? Does this seem right? And--or how's the check presented? I mean, everything, it just became part of the fabric of what we talked about. And, yeah, that lasted and it's still true. It's still true today. And we go places and we look at how just the, how the operational side, how people are solving their own problems and you know, are those things we can borrow or are they things that we would never do because they don't fit with who we are. So that's how, that's the weird biologybiologist into brewery owner. Downie (00:59:15): Everybody comes from somewhere. D Bagby: That’s right. Downie: Actually, you know, like you say, the whole hops chemistry. You know, Jackie Trischman in Chemistry at Cal State (University San Marcos) is working with Stone investigating hops chemistry. D Bagby: That’s awesome. Downie: So, you know, Bonnie Bade (Cal State University San Marcos) in Anthropology is medicinal plants, Native American medicinal plants, and looking at how those can be incorporated into beers and things, so… D Bagby: Absolutely. Downie: So, it's--you can pull a whole lot of different disciplines and interests and experiences into-D Bagby: Absolutely. Downie: The whole world of beer. D Bagby (00:59:45): Absolutely. And that, and the whole historical piece too, is something that both Jeff and I are really passionate about. And that's a big reason why we have such diversity in terms of the beer styles that we brew here. He brews here because of that. They, you know, a Belgian blonde brings us--brings us back to Brussels. It brings us back to visiting with our friend Yvan (De Baets) from (Brasserie) de la Senne, you know? That to us is a big reason why we wanted to do this also is to bring pieces of these experiences that we've had all over the world right here. And if somebody is able, isn't able, or doesn't know they want yet to go to Belgium or they don't know they want to go to Germany or maybe they never will, you know? If we can bring a little piece of that to them, that's whether it's the beer, the glassware, the, you know, a little bit of history lesson through our employees. That's all--that's a big, that's a huge piece of this for us. So having a big staff is a challenge. Per slight understatement. Downie: How many employees do you have? Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 18 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 D Bagby: We have about sixty employees now. Yeah. Which is the smallest staff we've ever had. We-when we first opened and you always open with more than you need, but we had over a hundred employees at one point. Downie: Wow. D Bagby: Which is a big, huge thing. Lots of people. J Bagby (01:01:06): Through all of that, through all of the construction, through all of the opening and employees (unintelligible), I like to tell people that absolutely nothing surprises me anymore. D Bagby: No J Bagby: Nothing. D Bagby: No, no. J Bagby: I've heard it all, seen it all at all. Been through it all. Yeah. Downie (01:01:22): And you're still standing. D Bagby: Yeah. We are. Yep. Downie: So, you've already said that you really don't look to expand beyond this site and it seems like it's large and you have plenty of elbow room but— J Bagby (01:01:39): We could even expand onsite because we have a building that we haven't really even touched—(speaking at the same time) D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Touched. Yeah. Downie: You’re kidding. D Bagby: Yeah. Downie (01:01:44): So you have expansion elbow room. J Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yes. D Bagby: (speaking at the same time) Yes. Downie: But since you're not canning beers now, what are your plans for the future in, you know, distribution or canning or--? J Bagby (01:01:56): So, we've gone back and forth. What--we looked pretty seriously at purchasing a canning line. Mike Hess (Mike Hess Brewing) was selling theirs. So, I went down and looked at it, kind of Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 19 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 ran some numbers and looked at it. But we wouldn't have been a good idea for cashflow for one thing. And the other was, we didn't have that output really. So, we'd have this really-D Bagby: Beautiful. J Bagby: Nice canning line and it would be lovely to put a ton of beer in cans, but no output for it. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: (1:02:24) Which, you know, cart before the horse or not, or whatever, it's sometimes you just have to jump in. And so, we decided not to at that point, but it is something that's on the mind, especially with a lot of our beers that tend to be growing in popularity and that we think would be really good in a package or in the proper package. So, that's still a possibility. But we haven't decided what step we're going to take first in doing that. So, there is a possibly of that in the next year or two, three. Other than that, I really want to continue pushing our draft distribution because it's something that we can do in the framework that we have. We have the beer, we have cooperage, we can get more cooperage very easily. And the capital outlay isn’t as much, and the space requirement is not as much or as intense as packaging. What else, what else? D Bagby (01:03:23): We one hundred percent self-distribute in California. So, we don't have a distributor anywhere. J Bagby: Out of state we have (unintelligible). D Bagby: Out of state, yeah, we (unintelligible). J Bagby: We’re not spending a lot out beer of out of state, yeah. (Aside to D Bagby, Forgot to tell you I talked to Matt Bonney yesterday about Washington.) D Bagby: Oh, okay, cool. J Bagby: So, we'll do some stuff up there, but anyway. (laughs) D Bagby (01:03:40): There you go. Heard it here first before I even heard it. (laughs) No, just kidding. J Bagby (01:03:44): And he called me during the party. D Bagby (01:03:45): Yeah. So self-distribution. We want to do that as long as we can. As a young business, (unintelligible), the margins on draft wholesale beer are already pretty, pretty low. So, you want to try to maximize as much revenue as you can at this stage of a business. There's also a lot of interesting things happening. I try to kind of dial into this a little bit as much as I can. There's a lot going on with this whole notion of hyper-local and, you know, being the kind of brewery that, and there are lots of them, that have these humongous, very ambitious goals to be in every state or to be in twenty states or to be all over the place right now. And I certainly don't disparage that, that's part of their business model and that's what they think is awesome. (01:04:34): Go for it. But it's really feeling a lot like people are more, appreciating more and more, what's right near them. And you see certain breweries that are drawing back from that, that broad scale distribution more and more-- Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 20 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 J Bagby: Or just staying where they are. D Bagby: (1:04:55) Or are just staying where they are, yeah. They say steady is the new growth. So, I think we're just, we're kind of a cautious company. We don't take a lot of big risks. Maybe because we have such a gigantic property here and so much going on that we don't have to. I mean, we don't even have the energy really to make big plans. But, no, we do talk a about what's next and where, where are we going to grow. And I do think even locally--we, you know, Jeff said, when he tries to sell someone beer, we actually haven’t actively sold any beer. Every drop of beer that hasn't been sold over our bar here at the pub has been somebody coming and saying, “Hey, I want to have your beer on at my place.” So, they reach out to us either, you know, usually via email. J Bagby (01:05:41): That’s who I just met downstairs. And he is a friend, but they came to us to taste. More traditional sort of setup like, “Hey, can you send your rep by and bring some of your beers? I'd like to taste them on tap.” D Bagby: Yeah, we do not have a rep. (laughs) J Bagby: I'm the rep. D Bagby (01:05:56): We don’t have one of those. Yeah. (J Bagby laughs) Part of it is too--and so that’s, it’s kind of nice that that’s, because then we know the accounts that have come to us really already get it. They already understand what we do and appreciate that enough to reach out, but we do not, we understand that is not sustainable. And the growth that we really do want to realize on the wholesale side is only achievable with some outreach. And that’s something that is--we know, we both acknowledge that that’s really important. But we also, again talk about kind of risk aversion. We were— it's still too close to us. We don’t want to just hire a sales rep and tell them to go out in the world and sell the beer. It’s really hard to let go of it and to, you know, just be those, just say, “Oh yeah, go for it. Volume volume. Get it.” (01:06:42) Because it still really matters to us who’s pouring it. How they’re pouring it. Are they taking care of the kegs? Is the glassware appropriate? Is it clean? Are the lines clean? All we need is somebody to have a beer like this Kölsch that I'm drinking that is so delicate. And such a light beer that, you know, if it’s not cared for it is going to be flawed. And you know, most people don't drink a beer and think that they don’t like and think that it isn’t the brewer (laughs) or the brewery. Most people do not say, “Oh, those lines must be dirty. That's why this does not taste right.” So, it’s just cautious and definitely overly cautious. I’ll say we are very careful. And, you know, that’s, at some point we're going to have to start peeling our fingers off those kegs a little more forcefully and get out there in the world and really see. We hear from time to time that people believe that we just don't have any beer to sell. Because we aren’t actively selling it, which isn’t true. We make a lot of beer and we sell a lot of beer over our own bars, but we definitely have some volume that could go out much more than it is. So, we’re working on it. Got our hands pretty full. (laughs) Downie (01:07:57): Now, this is something, you know, because you are both cautious people, but what if something happened and your landlord decided to sell the property? J Bagby (01:08:08): So, there's provisions in our lease that say that I can’t change our lease. Downie: Okay. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 21 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 Downie: It was very protective. D Bagby: Yeah. J Bagby: (1:08:15) It was very protected line by line that thing to make sure things like that like they couldn’t say, “Oh, we are going to sell a parking lot to a developer for apartments.” They can’t do that, you know? So, if they sell it our lease stands. D Bagby: And we can buy it too, we have to be considered. J Bagby: We don’t have first right of refusal. D Bagby: Something else called that. J Bagby: (1:08:38) Their landlord or their rep did not want to give that--our landlords have kids. I would not see them giving up this property to somebody unless we just came by and plopped the amount of money on them, which can happen. And, you know, I know that the people that own these shops kind of behind the alley-D Bagby: West of us. J Bagby: The other side, are trying to develop it and turn it into apartments. J Bagby (01:09:07): I'm like, that is a six-year project. If Coastal Commission-D Bagby: It’s the Coastal Commission. Downie: Yeah, it’s a coastal commission. Will even allow it. D Bagby: Yeah, if the city-J Bagby: (1:09:17) We are so lucky to avoid those things, you know? We don’t have a conditional use. It was in the beginning we had some neighbors that were complaining. And I think it was just because people were parking on the street. It’s public parking on the street. And they were just getting mad because they used to park in front of their house at a certain time of night. And it wouldn’t be a problem. You know, because we’re—anyway. Somebody came and complained and said, “Oh, well, I'm going to go to the city. And you know, I’ve already started signatures to get your conditional use removed and dah-dah-dah.” And I was like, “Well, that’s cool, but we don’t have a conditional use.” And (the city has nothing to do over what we do here as a business. Because we’re permitted as a right. So, (whispers) sorry about that. (laughs) D Bagby (01:09:58): Yeah, it was, we haven’t really, honestly, for being as close as we are to residential, we have had virtually no issues other than the first probably month we were open where people were kind of caught off guard maybe by the volume. But that’s, I mean, at least as far as I'm aware, we haven’t had any issues. We haven’t had any issues. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 22 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 J Bagby (01:10:16): I had a couple of things. There was that one guy that, you know, I think he just wanted to come in and kind of rant. And I was nice to him. I just let him go. And when I said, you know, “I want to work with you. I want to work with the community, but you got to realize that, you know, the streets are public parking and unless you get that changed, which you're perfectly willing to try to try to do, but I don't believe the city is going to let you just for your spot in front of your house. And you know, I want to help you. We have the required parking that we're supposed to have for the use that we have here per our agreements with the city. And, you know, really sorry if there's any incidents or things that, you know, please feel free to call us.” Like just, you know, kill them with kindness kind of thing. And you know, reminded him that he really could not do anything about it. D Bagby (01:11:05): Yeah, you live on a commercial zone, basically the boundary of a residential and commercial coming together. And that can be a challenge, especially because there wasn't anything here, no operating business for years. And even when the dealership was still going, I mean, they wouldn't--there wasn't so much parking demand. Yeah. That would have ever affected them. So, I get it. I would be upset too, probably, but— Downie (01:11:26): But yeah. And change is always going to have somebody not happy. D Bagby (01:11:30): Absolutely. That's true. Yeah. Sweat (01:11:33): I actually have to go. I'm overseeing an event in Encinitas here in a second, so I have to run. D Bagby: I hope you don’t run into any traffic. Sweat: We’ll see what happens. (laughs) Downie: It should be pretty good by now. Sweat: I'll follow up with you tomorrow just to make sure you have everything you need and just see what any next steps are. But, let me know in the meantime if you need anything. Downie: Thank you, Holly. D Bagby: Thanks Holly. Downie: I wish you a safe and easy drive. Sweat: Thank you, I know. D Bagby: (01:12:00): I hope so too. Holly, we'll look at those pictures today, too. I know you guys are asking and we just have had a crazy few days. Sweat: Yeah, we know with your party. D Bagby: Yeah. (laughs) Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 23 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 Sweat: It looked like a lot of fun. D Bagby: It was a lot of fun. Sweat: And honestly, if you are only able to decide on like, a few, I could do the ones of Jeff just to get them to see. D Bagby: Yes, I'll do that tonight before I leave. For sure. And how many do we need to give her? Total? Or selection? Sweat: It’s in the email, like, how many you guys agreed to pay for. D Bagby: I can’t remember. Sweat: It might be one or two or Jeff. D Bagby: Okay. Sweat: That we agreed upon. D Bagby: Okay. Sweat: But yeah. D Bagby: Thank you. Sweat: It’s nice to see you both. D Bagby: You too. Drive safe. Downie (01:12:37): So, if you can still give me a little more time. I know I had just an hour, so I don’t (unintelligible)--. J Bagby (01:12:41): Sure. I might check in on that account in a minute, but yeah, if you have some more questions, for sure. Downie (01:12:50): You both sound like you're very, very invested in education, you know, which is a wonderful thing. What would you say, I mean, do you support any charities or causes through the brewery that you feel like you want to talk about? Or, are there plans to expand your reach into, you know, goodwill gestures besides listening to irate neighbors? (all laugh) J Bagby (01:13:15): It's hard, you know? We get approached almost every day about some sort of donation for something. We have an outlet on our website where you can fill out a form and apply. And while we like supporting charities and the community, it's difficult because there are so many of them. And we like to look at the ones that either we've supported either personally in the past, or that we have a connection to through a family member or a very good friend. Where we can say, “Okay, you Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 24 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 know, this is important to us because of this.” You know, while we like also doing this, we're also running a business. So, at some point you can't--you have to close the doors a little bit on it and say, “Look, we want to help you out. But you know, you're asking—" we could do it. The easiest thing for us to do is donate beer. But the hardest thing for us to donate is beer because of the licensing required for the nonprofit to actually get it. And they don't understand that. Downie: I’ve run into that. (laughs) J Bagby: And we always have to be the one that's like, well, “We'd love to help you out, but there's this, this, this, and this.” Downie (01:14:22): Yeah, and more education. And what Stone did—because I approached Stone about some beer to maybe put into a scholarship raffle that we do through the Society of California Archivists I belong to. And it was, “Well, what did the ABC (California Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control say?” And then I ran into the ABC and I just went, for the permits we'd have to get, it's just, you know, it would eat up what little money we would make. So, and I understand that completely because (unintelligible). D Bagby: Yeah, we’ve seen it. But, with that said, we are involved. J Bagby (01:14:51): Yeah, I mean, we just had two weeks ago or, not this past week and the weekend before, we had a gigantic breast cancer benefit festival on our parking lot that a lot of our staff members donate their time to. We donate beer to, we donate food to—yeah, we donate space. And basically, we host the charity. And that was something that I started with the woman who founded the festival back at Pizza Port. Downie: Is that Brewbies? J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: So that's the biggest one that we have. And then this one that we just had almost raised almost fifty thousand dollars for charity. Downie: Wow. Wonderful. J Bagby: And so, you know, knowing that and having been involved with this one for nine of them now, and being in the beer industry in general, I'm always getting asked, I'm very diligent about when we get a request for a festival because sometimes, first and foremost, sometimes the festival isn't necessarily great for the charity. (01:15:46) There'll be a promotional company--excuse me, that we'll get out there, go up to a charity and say, “Hey, we can make you five thousand dollars if you pull the license for this,” you know? But they don't realize the potential risks involved or the insurance liability that they have to take on, different things like that. And the production company ends up taking the majority of the money because the proceeds. Now it's illegal because one hundred percent of it with that one day ABC license is supposed to go to the charity. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 25 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 Downie: Right. J Bagby: So, if someone squats, the ABC can say, “Hey, we need to see your books.” And then not only does the charity get in trouble, which they may not even be aware of. Downie: Right. J Bagby: But that promotional company, and even the breweries could get in trouble because they donated to it. Another thing is on our side, not only are we just donating beer but probably donating two people's full day’s worth of time to get the beer ready to go to the event, to get all the equipment together, to drive to wherever it might be to set up, to pour, take it all down and bring it all back home, clean it all. (01:16:43): And so, people don't realize what really goes into it on our side when we're donating. We're not just donating a beer, we’re donating quite a bit more so we're pretty diligent about those. But that's really the easiest way for us to support a charity or a community event, unfortunately. Downie (01:17:03): But those are facts that, you know, people need to be aware of. And you both talked about how much learning you've had to do along this path. D Bagby (01:17:13): We’ve done some kind of other fundraisers, though. J Bagby: Yeah, we've done some onsite things. D Bagby: There have been a couple of military things that we've supported and— J Bagby (01:17:25): And the dogs, yeah. D Baby (01:17:27): So there's a few things that we really, really kind of key into that mean a lot to us. But yeah, I think as a— J Bagby: Firefighter-D Bagby: Pint Project. J Bagby: Yeah. (01:17:38) A couple of onsite things that were pretty successful and, you know, we're just--you get back to this, like you can't do them all, you know? And as not nice as it sounds, it does need to benefit us in some way as well. Because we are offering up a lot when we do these things and why we want to help the community, we want to help these people that need help in some way, we just have to be careful. D Bagby: Yeah. Exactly. Downie (01:18:07): Yeah. Because, you know, I mean, not every charity is a 501(c ) or is required and you get into all kinds of thin ice. So, very understandable. But, no. D Bagby (01:18:19): Now that's one of the things that I think is a benefit to us as Jeff has made it his mission and his absolute business to know as much as he can about ABC licensing. Just any sticky situations that are pitfalls. The San Diego Brewers Guild (a nonprofit organization that promotes San Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 26 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 Diego breweries) just hosted like a ABC meeting at a local brewery a couple of weeks ago. And I feel like we knew a lot of that stuff that was mentioned, but it's still great to go and be a part of that. J Bagby: It’s like a refresher course. D Bagby: It’s a refresher. But you can just see in the room, people— J Bagby And you get questions and hands go up. And you’re thinking “You can’t do that.” D Bagby (01:18:58): Yeah. yeah. So, it was really interesting to see people's reaction to these rules that many of not all--I've been really long standing for a long time, but if you don't know, you don't know. And I think there's a lot of ask for forgiveness later, which may have worked in the past, but as the ABC gets more versed, they get--there are certain things that they were getting very particular about as they should. Downie (01:19:31): Well, once they see it as a continual problem, that it keeps happening, they're going to start coming down and— D Bagby (01:19:37): Yeah, and it's, you know, it is--I believe that it is your job as if you're going to have a license that you should know how it works and what--it's a responsibility. And it's hard for us to sometimes see other breweries who don't know. And that's fair if you don't know initially, but that blatantly break these laws all the time. And you don't want to see them get in trouble, but you also don't want to set up. It sets expectations on the customer side it sets expectations on other breweries’ sides were like, well, “They did it, why can't I?” And so of course for people like us who, like I said, risk averse, we want to make sure that we're--I mean, our biggest asset, those are the alcohol license. That's why we're here. So, if something happens to that, it gets jeopardized that's--that is a bad thing. (laughs) Very bad. So, yeah, it's, it's been talking about education. That's something that I've learned a lot from Jeff. And we've offered up if anybody has questions certainly here locally, you know, we're always available. People want to bounce an idea or, you know, find out more, we're happy to help. Downie (01:20:46): So, you're active in San Diego Brewers Guild. Because I saw you at Guild Fest (SD Brewers Guild Fest) and you just mentioned a recent meeting. Are there any other organizations you're active in or are members of--? J Bagby (01:20:58): We’re members of the Brewers Association, the National, um— D Bagby: CCBA. J Bagby: And the California Craft Brewers Association. Also, the MBA, the Masters Brewers Association of America. D Bagby: I'm actually a board member on the— J Bagby: San Diego. D Bagby: Brewer’s Guild. But yeah, there's a lot of those little things like that. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 27 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 J Bagby (01:21:19): I think those are the main ones, but those are all, I mean, there's some international stuff, but yeah. Downie (01:21:26): Yeah. What are you going to get involved in? I mean, again, it's kind of like the finding the charities that are actually going to be beneficial. Is that going to benefit you? J Bagby (01:21:36): (unintelligible) international. Well, yeah. I was going to say the only benefit for us because, you know, they have incredible conferences and technical courses. (Downie laughs) That would probably be the only reason for us to really be a part of those. And there's some competitions, there's some, some bigger European competitions that are gaining a lot of speed and a lot more Americans are actually sending beer over and winning medals. So, it's something to watch. But yeah, it's not like, you know, where we're going to Brau and Nuremberg every year or something like that. Downie (01:22:08): Well, that does bring up. When did you start putting your beers into competition? D Bagby: Good question. J Bagby (01:22:14): That was back when I was at Pizza Port at Solana Beach. We entered beers at Stone, but they weren't really--I didn't have anything to do with the recipes of those beers. Downie: Okay. You were an assistant. J Bagby: I was just standing there, but when I got to Solana Beach and was working with Tomme, some of those were my ideas and my things where I brewed them, or we brewed them together. It's a bit more intimate and I was a little bit more involved. So, I would say there, really. And that's where, you know, won, our first, or my first time across the stage. (laughs) Downie (01:22:50): Have you kept a list of all the awards you've won (unintelligible)? J Bagby (01:22:55): She did quite a bit of work on that before our business case. Before we opened. But I think she ended up just tallying GABF awards and World Beer Cup awards. Because there's certainly other things, too. There's like Alpha King. I’ve won that three times. That's the Hoppy Beer Competition that they hold during the GABF, that’s not associated with the GABF. Some awards at San Diego International Beer Festival, what do you call it? Beer of the Year, three times there. And some various other medals in, you know, have we ever entered LA county? A couple of times. So, you know, some things here and there. IPA festivas up and over North and Hayward. Years ago, I won medal at the Alaska Beer and Barleywine Festival. Downie (01:23:45): Oh, Alaska. Wow. You've really reached out here. J Bagby (01:23:48): It's a very long running, very famous festival. Downie (01:23:52): I’ve heard of it, yeah. But it just seems very interesting to me that if somebody were keeping a list of what beers they had won awards for, I think that would tell a story about some of the changes in styles and some of the expansion of styles of beers. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 28 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 J Bagby (01:24:07): Yeah, yeah. Maybe, I don't know. I was talking to somebody. I was in Miami at a festival this past weekend. A friend of mine, his anniversary for his brewery. And he throws a festival that coincides with it. It's invitational. Anyway, he invited me and I was like, “Yeah, I've never been to Miami. I'll go.” So anyway, I was talking to another brewer friend who was there and he was like, “Oh, well, you know, you won lots of IPA (India Pale Ale) medals,” and you and I was like, “Boy, yeah, I won some of those,” but also won in Belgians and a lot of different stout medals. And, I even have a couple of German pilsner medals. Some other like, you know, Scotch Ales, like Brown Ales. It's kind of a wide gamut. So, I don't know if my medal history would necessarily tell much of a story in that way. Maybe. Downie (01:25:02): Yeah. Well, I think the more pieces of evidence there are, the more our story can be put together. But have you ever done judging? J Bagby (01:25:10): Oh yeah. Yeah. I've been a judge at the GABF (Great American Beer Festival) and the World Beer Cup for thirteen years. Thirteen, fourteen years now. I don't remember my first judge GABF. It was like 2003, I think. So, yeah. I've been doing that for a long time and I'll be doing that this year in National. Downie (01:25:33): Yeah. I've heard comments that GABF has gotten so big and so many categories that has just really become kind of overwhelming. How do you feel about that? J Bagby (01:25:43): I wished that they would, on the organization side, that they would grow the competition to represent the growth in the beer industry. I get what they're trying to do and what then they have limitations, but sometimes I think they're being a little harsh on the restrictions on their side. You know, there's almost eight thousand beers in there, in the GABF last year, and I'm sure the World Beer Cup will be around that. And I think there's seventy-nine categories. They haven't expanded the categories too much in the last five years. I think maybe ten years ago there might've been sixtysomething categories. So, it hasn't expanded a whole lot, but what has is the entries, right? So, brewers used to be able to enter around eight beers per brewery, or brewhouse, location into the competition. They've changed that and they have several different categories in ways, you know, like a Pizza Port that has five locations. (01:26:44) You know, what if all five locations enter beers? Well, they have stipulations on how many beers a corporation, or a set of breweries, that are under one ownership can enter. So, every year that we've been a brewery, we've entered the maximum number of beers that we can enter into the GABF. And that makes it difficult because you only have four shots, right? Like we're sending four beers to the World Beer Cup. So, it's a more difficult. But so does everybody else. And so, everyone else has to make the decisions and the kind of cuts in their mind of which beers they want to enter, which ones that they're going to pass on for this year or this competition or whatever it is. So, it's still very fair. I think it's still judged very fairly. Probably the most fair competition there is in beer because of the qualities, the qualifications of the judges, and their palates and their history and their tenure as judges judging beer. It's all judged blind. It’s done very, very well. (01:27:54) The problems I see with it are the categories that are masked, or you have over two hundred beers in the category: American IPA, Imperial IPA. I think American Pale Ale is pretty high. Some of these other ones that they get close to, you know, that are well over one hundred beers. You're getting into a situation where the algorithm isn't--so, you know, when they're spitting out their initial rounds and the algorithm that isn't accounting for past medal winners. Or beers--so you could have a round that has eleven beers in it, say it's American IPA, and that round might not have a single beer that's ever been in the competition before, or all new breweries that have never been to a competition for it. Then you could have another set of eleven beers where every single one of those beers has won a medal in the American IPA category Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 29 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 before. (01:28:49) And they’re, as far as I know, they're not accounting for that. And to me, that changes the game a little bit. Because even if you're a judge and you, at which has happened before, you'll get around and you'll be like, “Man, it was tough to pass on three of those beers, really could have passed on two or even just one and save the judges down the road some tasting.” Well, they require you to pass on three. They really push you to pass on three. If you absolutely can't then they want to hear why and want to hear an explanation. And so, I just believe that in that sense, you know, well maybe it's okay, but in the other sense where they're like, “Man, we had eight good beers. It was really hard to only pass on three beers.” (01:29:39) So, now you've got this thing where you might have a potential medal winner that gets knocked out early because it was in a round with all excellent beer. Downie: Yeah. J Bagby: So that's--if I had a complaint about them, I wished that they would account for that. Especially in those--there's only, I'm talking to a handful of categories where that is really something I think that comes into play. The only other thing might be, like I said, to have grown with the competition or with the industry and allow brewers to enter more beers. But that takes more time. It takes more judges. They try to get the judging done in three days. If they didn't, they'd have to get another day, which is paying more, but you have to pay to enter the competition. So, to me, there's some work that probably could still be done. (01:30:33) And there is a lot of brewers out there that are like, “Oh GABF. It's kind of eh.” You know, I believe in what my beers are and I send them and either I don't win medals or other beers win medals in the category that I entered that I don't think are as good as my beer. I think you have people that feel like that. But having been a judge, I've been on the tables. I've never been in a case where I was like, “That beer should have won a medal and it's not in the top three,” you know? I've never had a case where there wasn't a lot of thought and a lot of time spent into the beers that actually win medals. They’re medal-winning beers. Downie (01:31:15): Okay. I had a question and it’s just completely slipped my mind. J Bagby: Sorry. I know. Downie: No, that's okay. It still had to do with this. Um, I don’t know. (laughs) J Bagby: With the competition, or--? Downie: Well, oh, I know what it is. The brewers themselves decide what style of beer they’ve brewed. Have you run into cases where you taste a beer and you go, “This has--should have been in this category, you know. What were they doing putting it in here?” J Bagby (01:31:43): Yeah. Yeah. And the BA (Brewer’s Association) is real upfront about that when they tell brewers, you know, read the style guidelines and make sure that your beer fits into those guidelines and they give you everything. They give you a verbal description of the bitterness, color, aroma, mouthfeel, text--you know, everything. And then they also give you actual numbers for alcohol range, color range. Those are the things you need to pay attention to. And I feel like there is brewers that still don't pay attention to that. I don't know how or why. Or if they've just mislabeled their beers or what happened. But, they're—it’s pretty upfront. Like, this is--the judges have this when they're sitting at their table and they're going to read this before they start judging your beer. So, why would you enter something that doesn’t fit? Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 30 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 Downie (01:32:39): Yeah, because you don't know why. Because I was thinking, well, maybe it's just their taste buds are different? Or it didn't transport well. (laughs) J Bagby: (01:32:48): Yeah. I think, you know, for instance, she (D Bagby) sent me a picture one day. She had a Kölsch earlier. I can't remember what brewery she was drinking at. But she sent me a picture and it was this hazy beer in a straight sided pint glass. And she wrote “Kölsch--?” And so of course I went, “What does it taste like? Where are you at? Blah-blah-blah.” But a lot of people would look at that and go, “Well, Kölsch should be bright,” you know? Any German from Cologne is going be like, “That's hazy,” that’s got--you know. Even chill haze shouldn't really be there in a Kölsch. Downie: Okay. J Bagby: And a brewer's interpretation is one thing of what they call it on their menu board versus, you know, what category they might enter it in GABF. So, a beer like that might be an entered in a Keller beer. Because it might be an unfiltered Kölsch. So, they might say, well, “Yeah, it's German style Kölsch,” but it's actually a Keller beer because it was brewed in the vein of a Kölsch, but Keller is a German style beer. Downie: (01:33:46): And that’s “K-E-L-L-E-R?” J Bagby: Yeah. Downie: Okay. I'm still learning all the— J Bagby (01:33:53): Oh yeah, there’s tons. And that's-Downie: There’s huge number of beer styles. J Bagby: Yeah, and there's, you know, historical beers that are becoming more popular and more rare, more obscure recipes and styles where there's a little bit more confusion or debate over what is actually correct. The Brewer’s Association does a good job of refining their categories and reviewing them each year. So, they take judge's interpretation—or judge’s comments on style descriptions. “No, no, this actually should be this way,” or “This should allow for this and this as well as this,” you know, so they do a good job of keeping up with that. But yeah, if you, you know, taste a brewer’s altbier at one brewery, and then he goes to another brewery and tastes another brewer’s altbier, they could be completely different beers. So, there that slide in judgment, but when you get into competitions, where's the category of your beer doesn't fit in it, then don't enter it. (laughs) Downie (01:34:54): Well, I mean, brewing is such a creative process. And there are as best as you can try certain factors like, you know, a Centennial hop may not be exactly the Centennial hop it was the year before due to the growing season, the factors there. So, it really is a creative process, but I've been kind of interested in the whole, you know, yes, I've seen some of these categories and descriptions and I'm like, “How can you always guarantee that those beers?”--well, obviously not. Not surprised. J Bagby (01:35:28): Yeah, there's interpretations of (unintelligible) category descriptions in different ways, for sure. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 31 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 Downie (01:35:35): Well, while you were meeting that account, Dande was telling me how, you know, when she first met you, how you were educating her into all the varieties of beers, you know? How she has found that to be so helpful. And then just the brewers I meet all seem to be that way as they to educate someone who--on the various styles that they're brewing or they're enjoying right at the time. Do you find that wearing? You know, continually trying to educate more people? J Bagby: (01:36:06): I think when it's--if I was doing it every day, I think it might get—or the same exact set of beers every day or the same exact descriptions of the same person or the same, you know, whatever. I think I might get a little tired of it. But to me it's kind of exciting, especially when you have somebody that's open to it and isn't restrictive of themselves in their own palates. So, if you have somebody that's like, “I've never tasted German-style Weisse beer. I've never tasted American Red Ale,” which is kind of a better example. “I've never tasted Irish dry stout. I've never tasted—" you know? Whatever it may be. And if you can get five or six of those things in samples right in front of somebody, that's going to be a really cool conversation. Especially if that person's open to tasting and listening and identifying with what you're talking about in each one, you know? When you say, “Oh, what do you smell on that? (01:37:00) What are you getting that? Okay.” Those types of things come from this ingredient or this timeframe or this hop or this malt and--or whatever other specialty ingredient might be there. And when the person identifies and goes, “Oh wow, that's really cool. I never thought of it like that.” All of the sudden you've got somebody who thought they hated German-style hefeweizen and going, “No, actually I'm going to order that the next time I'm out because I want to compare it or I want to see what it's like again, and kind of—"you know? I think people like, you know, connecting the dots in their heads. And if you've given them a little bit, just to even a little bit to bite on like English-style bitter, or an Extra Special Bitter, you know, what does that mean? What does that, it sounds, it sounds harsh, Extra Special Bitter. (01:37:43) Well, no, there's actually some really nice malt depth in ESB (Extra Special Bitter) and it should be there. Well, it should have a firm bitterness, but what kind of bitterness? Well, it's not American piney, citrus, passion fruit, floral. And it's not that kind of hop it's the more herbal, spicy, earthy hop from the English varieties. And even just that much, and a person can go, “Oh, well, I really liked that.” Downie: And it makes it more accessible. J Bagby: And the next time, the next time I see it somewhere, I've got that connection in my brain to go, “Yeah, I know what I'm ordering it and there it is. Affirmation.” I'm drinking it. And it smells and tastes like I remembered. And I was told that it should. And I get that a lot where somebody will say, “Hey, you mentioned that, you know, this style beer can have this, this, and this. But I tried it over here and I got this, this, and this.” (01:38:34) And that's sometimes where the brewer’s discrepancy is between styles or different ingredients or maybe just something is slightly different. But you can explain that away. And therefore, they've learned a little bit more and they have their file on whatever that beer was just got a little bit deeper in their head. So, the next time they try it and they connect the dots again. And I don't know, to me that's fun. That's exciting. And it's really exciting to see when someone's open to that and is engaging in that. It's kind of a little bit difficult when somebody says, “Oh, I don't like bitter beer,” or, “I don't like hops.” And you're like, “Well, you just haven't tried the right hops yet.” It's like, if you like beer and you're say you're a beer drinker, I believe--yes, you can have your favorites and the ones that you don't think are as great to you, but you got to try everything. (01:39:24) You know, there's some newer, crazy styles out there I get, but the basics, ales and lagers, and the families within there, the style of families, if you say you're a beer drinker, you should know those or have a basic framework and Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 32 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 understanding of what those are or have the desire to go, “I've never really tried that. I'm not really familiar with that, but I want to see. I want to see what it tastes like so that I know if I really like it, or I don't.” To like, find that out later, you know, like give yourself the chance to like it. Downie (01:39:56): It's like the three-bite rule with the kid and the vegetable. And then, you know, you got to at least try three bites of it. And then if you don't like it, we'll go from there. So that's a good way to do it. Now, do you have a favorite hop? Is there one that you like brewing with more than others? J Bagby (01:40:12): There’s definitely hops—plural--that I like using. We're a pretty classic traditional brewery. So, we stick to pretty traditional classic styles of beer. So, we're not using too many of the new, exotic, crazier hops. We're sticking to more of the classic American Pacific Northwest American hops and then the Nova varieties and then the English varieties. So, on the American side, you know, we're using a lot of Cascades, Centennial, a little Amarillo and Simcoe, and Columbus and Chinook. And that's kind of our core for the American side, but then the English ones are really wide and Noble hops as well. We use a lot of different varieties and again, not a lot of real new flashy ones, in part because of our contracts, we didn't know how and when our brewery was going to open. So, I bought a lot of hops because I was afraid that we weren't going to have any when we opened. So that drove that a little bit. The other part was just, yeah, I really liked those more classic American hops over some of the newer ones. Not to say that I don't like sprinkling a little of them here and there in brews, but I tend to favor those classic ‘C’ hops (referring to Chinook, Citra and other hops starting with the letter C.) Downie (01:41:30): And so you don't, from what you're saying, I'm hearing that you probably aren't planning on doing, you know, real strange and experimental beers either, you know? You're going to stick with the more--? J Bagby: (01:41:43): No, I think if anything, I would pick some of the more obscure older styles. I’ve talking with some friends about a smoked wheat beer that used to be made that is actually--I believe it's actually a lager yeast and it's a fairly bright beer. But it has a smoked character to it, and a little bit of bitterness and wheat malt character to it. But I'm always afraid to brew smoked beer because I think, I always think that it's going to be me and like three other people drinking it. (Downie and D Bagby laugh) Downie (01:42:11): Yeah, it could be a big mistake if you brewed it on your big system. So, do you have a small system that you can do little test batches on? J Bagby: No, it’s— D Bagby: It’s all or nothing. Downie: Well, that goes to being risk averse again. J Bagby (01:42:27): Yeah, we have a little lager on right now. I think it tastes fantastic. I just think it doesn't--I just think it's not exciting to people. It's a Belgium style beer. If you're familiar with Belgian style dubbel, which is basically like a Belgian style brown ale, but it has a Belgian yeast character to it. So, it's a little spicy and dark fruit and things like that. Well, take that and cut it in a little less than half with alcohol and flavors and everything else. We dropped it down to only about four and a half percent. It still has a lot of those characters, they're just a lot more mild and it's not as big and it's not as heavy. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 33 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 But it's not selling at all. (laughs) So, even somebody even called it dark Bud Light in the online comment. Downie: Oh dear. (laughs) J Bagby: That was fun to read yesterday. (laughs) D Bagby: That’s alright. It’s not for everyone. J Bagby: Nope. And that's exactly. That's kind of how we thought about it. Downie (01:43:23): One person's interpretation. J Bagby: Exactly, exactly. Downie: But yeah, if you're seeing that it's not really selling then, you know? You kind of-J Bagby (01:43:31): Yeah, we (unintelligible)-D Bagby: We had a few beers like, but that's, I mean, unfortunately, a few of them were Belgian styles. J Bagby: Yeah. D Bagby: But, Bruges Cruise was on for a long time. J Bagby: Well, that's because it was over eleven percent. We had people that loved that beer. But, we sold that at eight ounces at a time. D Bagby (01:43:44): Yeah, but we had it on tap for a year, also. J Bagby: (Unintelligible). D Bagby: They do A12. They do A12. Which is good. Downie (01:43:58): So, do you have much of a barrel aging program? J Bagby (01:44:01): We started one. We had, uh, we did twelve barrels and then we did another set with a different beer of just four barrels. All, most, all of that is gone now. So, we just brewed up Imperial Stout and we're getting ready to purchase thirty barrels. Just deciding what other beers we're going to put in those barrels and talk with the broker about making sure we get them as fresh as possible and which barrels they'll have available at that time. So that we're not filling barrels that have been sitting around drying out for months. They were nice and fresh. Downie (01:44:38): Yeah, you want to be able to extract something out of those barrels. (laughs) J Bagby (01:44:41): Exactly. But it's fun. I like doing it. But we do all straight up beer. We don't use any Wild Geese (blended whiskey) or-- Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 34 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 D Bagby: Cupcakes. J Bagby: Or anything like that. (Downie and J Bagby laugh) So yeah, that’s fun. That's, to me, that's--I don't know, that gets to the uber fun side of brewing. You're like, “Oh, I'm going to put this thing in here.” Well, we had that beer that she was talking about in there for eighteen months and I just served it in Miami last weekend and it tasted phenomenal. Downie: (laughs) Love it when something works. J Bagby: Yeah. And sometimes they're don’t. That’s true. Knock on wood, we were pretty lucky with our barrels. Yeah. Downie (01:45:23): Okay. Well, I think I've exhausted all my questions. I learned a lot from you both. I've very, very, very much appreciated your time. D Bagby: Oh sure, our pleasure. J Bagby (01:45:31): If anything comes up or you're going through things and just feel free to email me or her, and follow up. Downie (01:45:37): Come back with something that didn't record or transcribe or something. D Bagby (01:45:41): Don’t hesitate, we're happy to happy to help and also believe in what you're doing, and also-J Bagby: Definitely. D Bagby: And also love to talk about all this kind of stuff, people that-J Bagby: Yeah, it’s fun. D Bagby: People that are interested in it. Because, you know, we work so close to it, it's our life. But we are still--we are very passionate about it. And hopefully that comes through a little bit, even in construction stuff, and crazy things like that. Downie (01:46:01): I definitely see you have a future as working as a brewery construction consultant. (J and D Bagby laugh) Because really, you have gone through a lot of effort to educate yourselves and to do it right. And that kind of knowledge really should be shared. I mean, that's something I admire about Mike Hess. He wrote that, you know, ‘starting up a brewery’ webpage, but that still doesn't tap on everything. And especially, you know, doing something like this, of course every situation is going to change with every city you’re dealing with. D Bagby (01:46:34): But there are some basics that I think we would have really benefited from big time. And I think we would have heeded, we would have paid attention if somebody was like, “Hey, we just did this. Here's our experience. I'm here’s just how you can, you know, maybe avoid some of the pain, some of the pain points.” Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 35 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 J Bagby (01:46:49): Yeah, the building part and you know, the construction management. I mean, I think part of that goes a lot. Like I can use the comparison as somebody's going to buy their brewing equipment and calling up three different equipment manufacturing and saying, “I want to buy a tenbarrel system, give me a quote,” and get three quotes and then just choose which one they want and order the equipment and get it sent. Well, I went up to the equipment manufacturer’s warehouse and talked with the engineers for two days before they even started drawing plans for my tanks. And then when they were about to start doing the finishing and they connection piping and all the process piping, I went back up there and stood in my tanks and looked at all the cores and looked at all the valves were and told them where I wanted to move things moved or changed. (01:47:40) And the different specs on all--every single tank, not just the, the brewhouse stuff, but the cellar as well. Because you might get your tank and go like, “Why the heck is it like that?” And I kind of compare that to construction. Like we could have probably sat around and worked on other things and let them take forever to build this place and would have had something in the end, that would have been, but it wouldn’t been us and it wouldn’t been right. And that's just how we operate. So, I think while we spend a lot of time on that and we feel that it was absolutely one hundred percent necessary, some other people might be like, “Well, he didn't really need to do that. You could of—” D Bagby: Get by. J Bagby: But it's not us. I guess that was what I was trying to say. Downie (01:48:25): You have invested heavily in this, so why not have it right? But, Plan Nine (Plan Nine Alehouse) over in Escondido, I was over there one day and they didn't have any of their own beers on tap. And I said, “Gee, you don't have any of your own, I thought you were brewery.” And he said, “Well, we got new equipment and we've had continual leakage.” D Bagby: Oh no. Downie: And they, you know, this was like nine months that they had been dealing with it. So, you were exactly right in going--and I mean, even if you have to stand in your tanks and (unintelligible)— J Bagby: Well, and it’s kind of fun too. (laughs) Downie: Yeah, yeah. They will say, “Hey, I stood in my tank.” (all laugh) But, yeah. D Bagby: That’s too bad. Downie: So, something like that can go very, very wrong. J Bagby: Yeah, looking at welds and not (unintelligible). D Bagby (01:49:03): And also not having the support, because if you--when, you know, when you got your, whatever it is, whatever contractor you have or manufacturer having--actually, we're just dealing with the meeting before you got here or talking to a new point of sale company. And part of the reason is just a sheer lack of support on our current system. There's no one we can call and say, “Hey, you know our business, you know how we operate. These are the problems we're having.” There's just no one. Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 36 2024-03 �JEFF AND DANDE BAGBY TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2018-02-21 And so, this other company that's--you absolutely have a person. So having your tanks leaking, you're losing money. You're, you know, that's literally money down the drain, and frustrating if you're a brewery owner, you’re a brewer, you definitely don't want to see your beer going down the drain. Yeah. Do you have the support you need from the manufacturer? Who's going to back up their work and if not, then pay a few more bucks and get somebody who will. J Bagby: Yeah. Downie (01:50:00): Yeah. So, a lesson to live by. D Bagby: Yes, that’s so true. Well, thank you so much. Downie: (01:50:04): Thank you. Yeah, let's see. Where's my stop button? (Downie and D Bagby laugh) Transcribed by Ernest Cisneros and Judith Downie 37 2024-03 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bagby, Jeff and Dande. Interview transcript, February 21, 2018. Description An account of the resource Bagby Beer Company emphasizes traditional style beers, a craft cocktail program, and a restaurant menu to complement their beers. Over the years, Bagby Beer featured highly admired and hard-to-find American and European beers such as Bierstadt Lagerhaus (Denver, CO) and Brasserie d’Orval (Belgium) to complement their lineup. Built on the site of a former car dealership (among other businesses), the Bagbys closely oversaw the construction from the ground up which opened in 2014. The site was also host to the Brewbies® cancer awareness beer festival (2015-2022) and the Low and Slow Lager Festival among other fund raising and educational events. Bagby Beer sold to Green Cheek Beer Company of Costa Mesa, CA in early 2024. Jeff and Dande Bagby are the founders and owners of Bagby Beer Company in Oceanside, CA. Holly Sweat is Publicist at Katalyst Public Relations. Jeff Bagby’s role was as head brewer and leading the on-site Beerleaders brewing education program. Jeff’s brewery experience includes Stone Brewing, White Labs, and Oggi’s Pizza and Brewing. His last brewery before opening Bagby Beer was Pizza Port, leading brewing operations for the chain from the Carlsbad location. During his time at Pizza Port, he led the team to win notable awards and medals such as the World Beer Cup and the Great American Beer Festival’s brewery and brewer awards multiple times. He is one of the most awarded San Diego region brewers, notably garnering more GABF Alpha King Challenge awards for best hoppiest beer in the United States than anyone to date (2005, 2010 and 2011.) He left Pizza Port in 2011 to devote his energy to finding a site for a brewery/restaurant in the San Diego North County beach area. With the sale of Bagby’s to Green Cheek Beer, he remains as the brewer and continues to focus on lagers and traditional styles. Dande Bagby worked as Director of Operations including marketing and customer experience. She designed much of the building. Her employment background includes the San Diego Zoological Society, education, environmental science, restaurant and craft beer bar management, and marketing and finance responsibilities for multimillion-dollar budgets at a Fortune 500 company. She remains active in the transition to Green Cheek Beer Company at this time. In their 2018 interview, Jeff and Dande discuss their introduction to craft beer; homebrewing; introduction of craft beer to the region; Jeff’s entry into the profession in the late 1990s; challenges and responsibilities of founding and building a brewery; packaging and distribution; charity work; competitions, judging, and awards; consumer education. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jeff Bagby Dande Bagby Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Judith Downie Holly Sweat Ernest Cisneros Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-21 Subject The topic of the resource Bagby Beer Company (Oceanside, Calif.) Brewers -- California -- San Diego County Brewing industry -- California -- History Microbreweries -- California -- San Diego County Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceanside (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. California State University San Marcos Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BagbyJeffAndDande_DownieJudith_2018-02-21_transcript Brewchive(r) Women's experience