9 10 208 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Sheehan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Thao Ha OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. gang violence OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Oral history of Thao Ha, April 19, 2022 SC027-21 1:27:24 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Education Gangs -- Texas -- Houston Mira Costa College -- California -- Oceanside Refugees -- Vietnam Transitions (Program) Victims of violent crimes gang violence Thao Ha Robert Sheehan mp4 HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.mp4 1:|17(4)|30(1)|39(3)|50(1)|63(17)|75(3)|94(15)|109(3)|123(2)|136(1)|150(5)|157(9)|167(11)|180(4)|193(7)|203(4)|211(13)|221(4)|234(1)|246(1)|256(5)|269(2)|279(11)|291(3)|304(10)|314(8)|322(14)|335(2)|347(13)|360(13)|372(8)|381(10)|393(10)|406(5)|417(6)|427(2)|436(11)|445(16)|454(6)|463(2)|472(6)|484(14)|494(11)|507(3)|518(8)|529(10)|538(4)|544(14)|561(4)|571(16)|583(4)|601(7)|612(14)|625(18)|639(2)|650(7)|663(1)|674(13)|693(4)|705(8)|717(12)|727(14)|738(9)|750(6)|758(1)|769(2)|777(9)|789(5)|800(3)|810(5)|819(13)|831(3)|839(8)|849(4)|859(14)|870(13)|879(8)|888(14)|900(3)|910(2)|919(11)|928(16)|938(2)|951(13)|962(11)|972(15)|982(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e0bc9bd3a81619c640e7bc9fc529dc61.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction/ Childhood Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, “Oh my God, it must have been so scary.” (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, “Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives” by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Thao Ha discusses her early childhood. She was born in Vietnam and recounts the story of how she fled the country at the fall of Saigon as a toddler with her parents. She explains that they were processed into the United States as refugees and settled in San Antonio, Texas. HoChi Minh City ; refugees ; Saigon ; San Antonio (Tex.) ; Vietnam ; Vietnamese family 403 Family background/ Parents’ occupations Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or…? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, “How come you weren’t a pilot when you were already a pilot?” And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, “Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.” And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, “Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.” Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Thao Ha discusses her family’s background. She has two younger sisters and one younger brother. Their family also moved around often for their father’s work, and they have lived in San Antonio, TX, Knoxville, TN, Cedar Rapids, IA, and Houston, TX. Her family still resides in Houston. Thao also describes her parents’ occupations. Her father was a pilot in the South Vietnamese Air Force, but he had lost his log books when they fled to the U.S. In order to support his family, her father became a mechanic in the U.S. Thao explains that this is part of the refugee experience. She also explains that her mother was a seamstress who sewed t-shirts for babies in hospitals who was later contracted by an ophthalmologist to sew surgical eye patch garters. Her parents later collaborated with the ophthalmologist and worked together to create surgical eye patches that contained metal parts. Houston (Tex.) ; Mechanic ; pilot ; refugees ; Seamstresses ; Vietnamese family 845 Growing up in a Vietnamese community Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, “Go back to my own country,” you know, “Go back to your country.” And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I—I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, “Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,” and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Thao Ha discusses her experience growing up in a Vietnamese community in Houston, TX. She explains that Houston was an area in which secondary migration occurred for Vietnamese refugees due to job opportunities and affordable housing. Thao describes feeling connected to her community in Houston ; she had many Vietnamese friends in school, she spoke the language at home, and there were Vietnamese stores in town. As a refugee, however, Thao did also experience bullying and racism from other children in her community. It was also during this time that Thao began associating with other kids who had formed gangs. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; refugees ; Vietnamese community ; Vietnamese family ; Vietnamese-American gangs 1137 Relationship with sisters / Gang affiliations in Houston, TX Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, “Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,” right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was—you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you’re in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, “Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,” and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, “They looked like gangsters,” and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, “Oh my God! We know him,” but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Thao Ha discusses the responsibilities of being the eldest child in an immigrant household. She felt that there was a lot of pressure placed on her to set a good example for her younger siblings and to ensure their safety. Thao also explains the culture of gang affiliation for immigrant youth and teenagers. In Houston, Thao describes that gang affiliation was needed as a means for protection against non-Vietnamese teenagers. She further describes her teenage years living in Houston and her experience with friends and family in gangs. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; Refugees ; Vietnamese family ; Vietnamese-American gangs 1921 School years Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, “I did this like three years ago.” (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, “Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now.” So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, “Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.” And my parents were like, “Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?” And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, “Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.” And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don’t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, “Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I’ll just figure it out later and take the test.” Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it—or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking “Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.” And going more towards thinking “Well maybe I'll just get a job,” because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, “I don't know what I'm going to do.” And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, “That's it. I'll just go get a job.” And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, “Okay,” something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, “Okay, that's it, it's time to—&quot ; it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, “Okay if I go back to school,” which I definitely wanted to do, “I will study something that I want to.” And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, “Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!” And I thought, “Well, I will study law,” so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, “Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,” and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Thao Ha first discusses her middle school and high school years. She recounts excelling in many subjects, but that fighting with students and truancy caused other problems while in the school system. She graduated from high school Cum Laude but describes struggling to find her path in college. Many of her friends were still involved in gang activity, and she did not know where she belonged. She explains that she decided to leave college and find a job to support her family. She also explains that after being shot in a pool hall and seeing more friends enter the prison system, she decided to go back to college and studying sociology. Crime ; Education ; Refugee ; Sociology ; Vietnamese-American gangs 2475 Getting shot at a pool hall Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie’s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, “Okay, we got to get out of here,” right? “We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.” So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, “Okay, we got to get out of here!” And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, “There's a fight outside. We got to go!” So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, “Bang, bang, bang.” We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, “Why does my arm hurt so bad?” And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, “Fuck, I got shot!” right? And everybody's like, “What, what, what!?” And so, I'm like, “Drive to hospital!” Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking “What just happened?” And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe just what happened.” And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, “Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.” And I was just like, “Ow!” It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, “No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this.” Like, “If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here.” I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, “Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,” right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, “Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.” Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, “Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter.” I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, “Oh, you see that?” And so, he was pointing, and he said, “That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm.” And then he goes, “Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.” So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He’s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, “So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.” So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, “Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.” And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents “Two millimeters.” That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, “Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up.” Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, “Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!” You know you watch on TV and it's like, “Let me know if you're cold!” Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, “I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it’s just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again.” Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, “What are your goals?” I was like, “Well I want to play volleyball again.” And he was like, “I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work.” Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Thao Ha describes in further detail the night she was shot at an American pool hall called Slick Willie’s. She recalls many Vietnamese at the pool hall that night when a fight broke out. She explains that she was shot as she and her friends were escaping the pool hall. She also describes her experience in the hospital and speaking with police. Thao also describes how being shot affected her volleyball career. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; pool halls ; refugee ; Vietnamese-American gangs 3230 Studying sociology in university Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, “I will write with my right hand!” So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, “Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything,” right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, “People study Vietnamese people?” It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. “Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.” So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, “Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.” And I will never forget. She's like, “Oh, I know you.” she's like, “You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?” And I said, “No,” and she said, “Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!” And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, “Wow! I feel so special.” So, I said, “Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.” (laughs) And she was like, “You want to go to law school, huh?” So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, “Do you want to work eighty hours a week?” And I was like, “No.” And she said, “Well, you know that’s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.” She was like, “Have you ever thought about being a professor?” I said, “No.” She said, “Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,” right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, “Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.” And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, “How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.” And I'm like, “Oh, wow.” So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, “I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side.” So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, “Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!” And I'm like, “Oh my God.” (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, “Your daughter should be a professor.” And my parents like, “Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.” (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Thao Ha recounts her decision to study sociology in college. Thao describes how her sociology professor mentored her in undergrad, provided her with research opportunities, and influenced her to go into teaching. Education ; Immigration studies ; refugee ; Sociology ; Teaching 3538 Decision to go into teaching / Dichotomy of identities Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. “Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.” And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, “If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.” So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, “Oh man, that's really what I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,” and my parents were like, “Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.” (laughs) “You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?” That's my mom, right? Like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.” So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, “Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.” So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, “Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.” So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like “I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.” I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Thao Ha continues to discuss her decision to go into teaching. She also describes the dichotomy of her identity while in graduate school. She explains that she felt that she had to let go of her past while earning her PhD. Once Thao began working with individuals in the California prison system, however, she began to reconcile her past and present identities. Crime ; Education ; Identity ; Immigration studies ; refugee ; Refugee Studies ; Sociology ; Teaching ; Vietnamese-American gangs 3936 Future of the judicial system Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, “We should just do away with prisons,” prison abolition, like, “We don't need prisons in society.” And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, “Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society.” So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Thao Ha discusses the future of the judicial system. She explains her complicated opinions regarding the prison abolition movement and how she instead supports abolishing for-profit prisons and lifetime sentences for youth. Crime ; For-profit prisons ; Prison ; Prison abolition movements ; Refugee ; Wrongful convictions 4440 Family experiences with wrongful convictions/ Thoughts on reduced sentencing Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, “Oh, you did that and so you get out,” but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, “Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,” people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Thao Ha discusses her family experiences with wrongful convictions in the prison system. She explains how a wrongful conviction can turn into a life sentence and how some punishments do not fit the crime. Thao also explains how reduced prison sentencing can depend on each state’s law. She discusses the different reduced sentencing laws in California and Texas. California ; Crime ; Prison ; Reduced sentencing ; Refugee ; Texas ; Wrongful convictions 4814 The value of education/ Experience teaching at a community college Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don’t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, “Well, I learned that on TikTok.” Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, “Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!” I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, “Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?” And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, “I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.” And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, “I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.” So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Thao Ha reflects on the value of education. She understands that a university education is expensive for many students and wants to see education become more accessible. She also discusses her career as a professor in the community college system and explains her passion for connecting with her students in a close-knit learning environment. Community college ; Education ; Refugee ; Sociology ; Teaching Oral history Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at Mira Costa College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I&#039 ; m here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that&#039 ; s where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they&#039 ; ve shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they&#039 ; re in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn&#039 ; t really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents&#039 ; lens, I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Oh my God, it must have been so scary.&quot ; (laughs) And, she&#039 ; s got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn&#039 ; t crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that&#039 ; s the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That&#039 ; s incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn&#039 ; t had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, &quot ; Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives&quot ; by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you&#039 ; re running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father&#039 ; s kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he&#039 ; s just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that&#039 ; s when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that&#039 ; s where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family&#039 ; s still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or--? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, &quot ; How come you weren&#039 ; t a pilot when you were already a pilot?&quot ; And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn&#039 ; t they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren&#039 ; t, that&#039 ; s something they didn&#039 ; t take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, &quot ; Well, I can&#039 ; t be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.&quot ; And they just, you know I think that&#039 ; s part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents&#039 ; generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can&#039 ; t be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you&#039 ; re alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don&#039 ; t think he has any--I&#039 ; m not sure, that was a good question. I&#039 ; ll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it&#039 ; s one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren&#039 ; t really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they&#039 ; re newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here&#039 ; s where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, &quot ; Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.&quot ; Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn&#039 ; t want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That&#039 ; s really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there&#039 ; s a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it&#039 ; s not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn&#039 ; t have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, &quot ; Go back to my own country,&quot ; you know, &quot ; Go back to your country.&quot ; And just the things that you&#039 ; ll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I--I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, &quot ; Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,&quot ; and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that&#039 ; s when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that&#039 ; s like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there&#039 ; s a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there&#039 ; s a dichotomy. There&#039 ; s the Thao at home. And then there&#039 ; s the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that&#039 ; s a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they&#039 ; ll tell you like, &quot ; Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,&quot ; right? Like if there&#039 ; s three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you&#039 ; d have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn&#039 ; t get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I&#039 ; m going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it&#039 ; s kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny&#039 ; s not the right word, but it&#039 ; s interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there&#039 ; s an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don&#039 ; t see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there&#039 ; s another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you&#039 ; re in the math club or if you&#039 ; re in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there&#039 ; s fun in that as well, but there&#039 ; s also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you&#039 ; re not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I&#039 ; m sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don&#039 ; t want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was--you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn&#039 ; t necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you&#039 ; re in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad&#039 ; s youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he&#039 ; s a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he&#039 ; s in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who&#039 ; s his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That&#039 ; s the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you&#039 ; re constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you&#039 ; re in a social setting who you don&#039 ; t want to mess with, and who you don&#039 ; t want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don&#039 ; t know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, &quot ; Oh, I fallen and I can&#039 ; t get up,&quot ; and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they&#039 ; d hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they&#039 ; d rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That&#039 ; s how he described them, &quot ; They looked like gangsters,&quot ; and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn&#039 ; t do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America&#039 ; s Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI&#039 ; s most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America&#039 ; s Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, &quot ; Oh my God! We know him,&quot ; but we didn&#039 ; t know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that&#039 ; s kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I&#039 ; d kind of like to circle back to your education. As you&#039 ; re going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you&#039 ; re doing well in school. But those two don&#039 ; t seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; I did this like three years ago.&quot ; (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn&#039 ; t learning. And I came home and I told my dad, &quot ; Hey, I don&#039 ; t know, dad. Like, I don&#039 ; t know what you want from us. I&#039 ; m sorry that we messed up. And I&#039 ; m sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I&#039 ; m getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I&#039 ; m in the eighth grade now.&quot ; So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don&#039 ; t have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, &quot ; Oh, I&#039 ; d love to be like a journalist or an author.&quot ; And my parents were like, &quot ; Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?&quot ; And I didn&#039 ; t know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, &quot ; Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.&quot ; And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn&#039 ; t let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don&#039 ; t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, &quot ; Oh, they don&#039 ; t take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don&#039 ; t have to go to class. I&#039 ; ll just figure it out later and take the test.&quot ; Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn&#039 ; t work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn&#039 ; t enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it--or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking &quot ; Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.&quot ; And going more towards thinking &quot ; Well maybe I&#039 ; ll just get a job,&quot ; because I need to help my friends figure out what they&#039 ; re doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t know what I&#039 ; m going to do.&quot ; And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn&#039 ; t do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, &quot ; That&#039 ; s it. I&#039 ; ll just go get a job.&quot ; And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, &quot ; Okay,&quot ; something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, &quot ; Okay, that&#039 ; s it, it&#039 ; s time to--&quot ; it&#039 ; s a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that&#039 ; s when I decided, &quot ; Okay if I go back to school,&quot ; which I definitely wanted to do, &quot ; I will study something that I want to.&quot ; And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, &quot ; Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We&#039 ; re just happy you&#039 ; re alive!&quot ; And I thought, &quot ; Well, I will study law,&quot ; so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, &quot ; Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,&quot ; and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there&#039 ; s a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie&#039 ; s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there&#039 ; s problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn&#039 ; t, I didn&#039 ; t really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, &quot ; Okay, we got to get out of here,&quot ; right? &quot ; We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.&quot ; So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We&#039 ; re like, &quot ; Okay, we got to get out of here!&quot ; And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I&#039 ; m recounting this because it&#039 ; s about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would&#039 ; ve left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, &quot ; There&#039 ; s a fight outside. We got to go!&quot ; So, we&#039 ; re running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we&#039 ; re running to the car, that&#039 ; s when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we&#039 ; d already heard, &quot ; Bang, bang, bang.&quot ; We&#039 ; d already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that&#039 ; s when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don&#039 ; t know if you&#039 ; ve never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don&#039 ; t know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn&#039 ; t even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that&#039 ; s kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, &quot ; Why does my arm hurt so bad?&quot ; And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Fuck, I got shot!&quot ; right? And everybody&#039 ; s like, &quot ; What, what, what!?&quot ; And so, I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Drive to hospital!&quot ; Because we can&#039 ; t call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I&#039 ; m in the car backseat and my sister&#039 ; s trying to tie a tourniquet and I&#039 ; m sitting here thinking &quot ; What just happened?&quot ; And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It&#039 ; s like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that&#039 ; s when I was like, &quot ; Oh my God, I can&#039 ; t believe just what happened.&quot ; And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, &quot ; Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.&quot ; And I was just like, &quot ; Ow!&quot ; It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn&#039 ; t as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that&#039 ; s what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, &quot ; No, I don&#039 ; t want to, I don&#039 ; t want to continue this.&quot ; Like, &quot ; If you go shoot up that guy, they&#039 ; re going to come back, shoot us up. Let&#039 ; s just end this here.&quot ; I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn&#039 ; t want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, &quot ; Let&#039 ; s just end here. I&#039 ; m going to trust the legal system. I&#039 ; m going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,&quot ; right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That&#039 ; s intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, &quot ; Oh, she&#039 ; s super lucky. She&#039 ; s super lucky.&quot ; Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, &quot ; Look at her X-ray. There&#039 ; s bullet matter, there&#039 ; s bone matter, there&#039 ; s tissue matter.&quot ; I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, &quot ; Oh, you see that?&quot ; And so, he was pointing, and he said, &quot ; That&#039 ; s her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would&#039 ; ve had to amputate her arm.&quot ; And then he goes, &quot ; Oh, you see that? That&#039 ; s her nerve.&quot ; So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He&#039 ; s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He&#039 ; s like, &quot ; So we&#039 ; re going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don&#039 ; t know how much mobility she&#039 ; ll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she&#039 ; ll have her arm. We won&#039 ; t have to cut it off and she&#039 ; ll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.&quot ; So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, &quot ; Oh, okay. So, I&#039 ; m lucky to be alive. I&#039 ; m lucky not to have amputation. I&#039 ; m lucky to have, not paralysis.&quot ; And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don&#039 ; t know why, but I remember him telling my parents &quot ; Two millimeters.&quot ; That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, &quot ; Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don&#039 ; t screw it up.&quot ; Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It&#039 ; s like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You&#039 ; re so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she&#039 ; s freaking out. She&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!&quot ; You know you watch on TV and it&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Let me know if you&#039 ; re cold!&quot ; Right? Like, because somebody&#039 ; s dying. And I was like, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t think I&#039 ; m dying sis[ter], I think it&#039 ; s just my arm. But I don&#039 ; t know if I&#039 ; m going to ever play volleyball again.&quot ; Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, &quot ; What are your goals?&quot ; I was like, &quot ; Well I want to play volleyball again.&quot ; And he was like, &quot ; I can&#039 ; t promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It&#039 ; s going to be how hard you work.&quot ; Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I&#039 ; m missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn&#039 ; t have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That&#039 ; s good to hear. So, you&#039 ; ve got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there&#039 ; s a lot of scar tissue in there. It&#039 ; s not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it&#039 ; s not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there&#039 ; s just too much scar tissue. So, it can&#039 ; t bend and it gets sore more easily. There&#039 ; s been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it&#039 ; s all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I&#039 ; m assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, &quot ; I will write with my right hand!&quot ; So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there&#039 ; s one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I&#039 ; m being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, &quot ; Oh gosh, if I could just change one person&#039 ; s life, it would mean everything,&quot ; right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; People study Vietnamese people?&quot ; It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. &quot ; Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.&quot ; So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that&#039 ; s why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there&#039 ; s something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, &quot ; Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you&#039 ; re my sociology professor.&quot ; And I will never forget. She&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Oh, I know you.&quot ; she&#039 ; s like, &quot ; You&#039 ; re a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; No,&quot ; and she said, &quot ; Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!&quot ; And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, &quot ; Wow! I feel so special.&quot ; So, I said, &quot ; Well, I came to ask you if there&#039 ; s any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.&quot ; (laughs) And she was like, &quot ; You want to go to law school, huh?&quot ; So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, &quot ; Do you want to work eighty hours a week?&quot ; And I was like, &quot ; No.&quot ; And she said, &quot ; Well, you know that&#039 ; s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I&#039 ; m just giving you a reality.&quot ; She was like, &quot ; Have you ever thought about being a professor?&quot ; I said, &quot ; No.&quot ; She said, &quot ; Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,&quot ; right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, &quot ; Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.&quot ; And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, &quot ; How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.&quot ; And I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Oh, wow.&quot ; So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, &quot ; I want you to present your paper at a conference. It&#039 ; s going to be at the college, and you&#039 ; ll be in front of hundreds of people, but don&#039 ; t worry, I&#039 ; ll be there. I&#039 ; ll be right there by your side.&quot ; So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don&#039 ; t know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, &quot ; Oh, we&#039 ; re so proud of you. You did so well!&quot ; And I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Oh my God.&quot ; (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I&#039 ; m sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, &quot ; Your daughter should be a professor.&quot ; And my parents like, &quot ; Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.&quot ; (laughs) Sheehan: It&#039 ; s nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor&#039 ; s Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. &quot ; Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor&#039 ; s now you can get in and finish your Master&#039 ; s in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you&#039 ; ll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.&quot ; And so literally she laid out this option for me. She&#039 ; s like, &quot ; If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.&quot ; So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, &quot ; Oh man, that&#039 ; s really what I want to do. I don&#039 ; t think I want to I go to law school anymore,&quot ; and my parents were like, &quot ; Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don&#039 ; t want to be a lawyer.&quot ; (laughs) &quot ; You&#039 ; re going to have to lie. You have to lie if you&#039 ; re a lawyer, do you want to do that?&quot ; That&#039 ; s my mom, right? Like, &quot ; Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.&quot ; So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that&#039 ; s a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can&#039 ; t hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I&#039 ; m like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn&#039 ; t what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Just forget about us. We&#039 ; re not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.&quot ; So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn&#039 ; t like, &quot ; Oh, you should totally make this your Master&#039 ; s degree study.&quot ; So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like &quot ; I&#039 ; m not going to tell anybody that&#039 ; s who I was. I don&#039 ; t want them to judge me. I don&#039 ; t want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.&quot ; I don&#039 ; t tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn&#039 ; t until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it&#039 ; s very full circle. So that&#039 ; s where I&#039 ; m at now. And that&#039 ; s kind of the work that I champion, and I&#039 ; m not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn&#039 ; t exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you&#039 ; ve had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that&#039 ; s a really good question, because there&#039 ; s so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, &quot ; We should just do away with prisons,&quot ; prison abolition, like, &quot ; We don&#039 ; t need prisons in society.&quot ; And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it&#039 ; s very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who&#039 ; ve done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It&#039 ; s like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It&#039 ; s a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there&#039 ; s other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they&#039 ; re out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don&#039 ; t think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who&#039 ; ve done long, long prison sentences. So, I&#039 ; m not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they&#039 ; ve done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don&#039 ; t think that that works. There&#039 ; s no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, &quot ; Well, you&#039 ; re done. We just need to be done with you in society.&quot ; So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that&#039 ; s a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we&#039 ; ve seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we&#039 ; re dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that&#039 ; s a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we&#039 ; re allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it&#039 ; s awful. I mean, let&#039 ; s look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They&#039 ; re not fully developed. We do stupid things when we&#039 ; re young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would&#039 ; ve gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would&#039 ; ve went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there&#039 ; s already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I&#039 ; m in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it&#039 ; s one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it&#039 ; s not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let&#039 ; s say there&#039 ; s a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I&#039 ; ve seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you&#039 ; re eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you&#039 ; re forty-eight years old. You&#039 ; ve missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we&#039 ; re incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there&#039 ; s a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn&#039 ; t really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I&#039 ; m not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would&#039 ; ve happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That&#039 ; s a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn&#039 ; t like an automatic, like, &quot ; Oh, you did that and so you get out,&quot ; but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, &quot ; Okay, you&#039 ; ve changed, and you&#039 ; ve rehabilitated, and you&#039 ; re no longer threat to society,&quot ; people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn&#039 ; t necessarily violent, let&#039 ; s say you--I&#039 ; m trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn&#039 ; t inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you&#039 ; re not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there&#039 ; s been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you&#039 ; re probably going do your full time. You&#039 ; re not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I&#039 ; m coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I&#039 ; ll guess I&#039 ; ll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you&#039 ; d like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it&#039 ; s 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It&#039 ; s not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don&#039 ; t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who&#039 ; s twenty years old, and she&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Well, I learned that on TikTok.&quot ; Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they&#039 ; re formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they&#039 ; re like, &quot ; Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!&quot ; I don&#039 ; t think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you&#039 ; ll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That&#039 ; s a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don&#039 ; t mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don&#039 ; t. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn&#039 ; t applied to any universities yet, I didn&#039 ; t qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, &quot ; Man, I&#039 ; ve got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?&quot ; And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that&#039 ; s different from university, but that&#039 ; s also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let&#039 ; s not discount it, given that we&#039 ; re going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we&#039 ; re not in person, right? But we&#039 ; re human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can&#039 ; t untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, &quot ; I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.&quot ; And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.&quot ; So, there&#039 ; s a financial benefit, there&#039 ; s the social benefit, there&#039 ; s the intimidation factor that is less because you&#039 ; re not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, &quot ; Oh my God, it must have been so scary.&quot ; (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, &quot ; Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives&quot ; by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or--? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, &quot ; How come you weren't a pilot when you were already a pilot?&quot ; And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, &quot ; Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.&quot ; And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, &quot ; Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.&quot ; Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, &quot ; Go back to my own country,&quot ; you know, &quot ; Go back to your country.&quot ; And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I--I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, &quot ; Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,&quot ; and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, &quot ; Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,&quot ; right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was--you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you're in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, &quot ; Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,&quot ; and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, &quot ; They looked like gangsters,&quot ; and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, &quot ; Oh my God! We know him,&quot ; but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, &quot ; I did this like three years ago.&quot ; (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, &quot ; Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now.&quot ; So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, &quot ; Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.&quot ; And my parents were like, &quot ; Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?&quot ; And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, &quot ; Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.&quot ; And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don't know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, &quot ; Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I'll just figure it out later and take the test.&quot ; Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it--or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking &quot ; Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.&quot ; And going more towards thinking &quot ; Well maybe I'll just get a job,&quot ; because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, &quot ; I don't know what I'm going to do.&quot ; And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, &quot ; That's it. I'll just go get a job.&quot ; And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, &quot ; Okay,&quot ; something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, &quot ; Okay, that's it, it's time to--&quot ; it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, &quot ; Okay if I go back to school,&quot ; which I definitely wanted to do, &quot ; I will study something that I want to.&quot ; And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, &quot ; Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!&quot ; And I thought, &quot ; Well, I will study law,&quot ; so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, &quot ; Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,&quot ; and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie's. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, &quot ; Okay, we got to get out of here,&quot ; right? &quot ; We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.&quot ; So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, &quot ; Okay, we got to get out of here!&quot ; And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, &quot ; There's a fight outside. We got to go!&quot ; So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, &quot ; Bang, bang, bang.&quot ; We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, &quot ; Why does my arm hurt so bad?&quot ; And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, &quot ; Fuck, I got shot!&quot ; right? And everybody's like, &quot ; What, what, what!?&quot ; And so, I'm like, &quot ; Drive to hospital!&quot ; Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking &quot ; What just happened?&quot ; And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, &quot ; Oh my God, I can't believe just what happened.&quot ; And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, &quot ; Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.&quot ; And I was just like, &quot ; Ow!&quot ; It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, &quot ; No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this.&quot ; Like, &quot ; If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here.&quot ; I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, &quot ; Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,&quot ; right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, &quot ; Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.&quot ; Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, &quot ; Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter.&quot ; I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, &quot ; Oh, you see that?&quot ; And so, he was pointing, and he said, &quot ; That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm.&quot ; And then he goes, &quot ; Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.&quot ; So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He's like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, &quot ; So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.&quot ; So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, &quot ; Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.&quot ; And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents &quot ; Two millimeters.&quot ; That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, &quot ; Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up.&quot ; Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, &quot ; Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!&quot ; You know you watch on TV and it's like, &quot ; Let me know if you're cold!&quot ; Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, &quot ; I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it's just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again.&quot ; Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, &quot ; What are your goals?&quot ; I was like, &quot ; Well I want to play volleyball again.&quot ; And he was like, &quot ; I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work.&quot ; Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, &quot ; I will write with my right hand!&quot ; So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, &quot ; Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything,&quot ; right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, &quot ; People study Vietnamese people?&quot ; It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. &quot ; Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.&quot ; So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, &quot ; Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.&quot ; And I will never forget. She's like, &quot ; Oh, I know you.&quot ; she's like, &quot ; You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; No,&quot ; and she said, &quot ; Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!&quot ; And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, &quot ; Wow! I feel so special.&quot ; So, I said, &quot ; Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.&quot ; (laughs) And she was like, &quot ; You want to go to law school, huh?&quot ; So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, &quot ; Do you want to work eighty hours a week?&quot ; And I was like, &quot ; No.&quot ; And she said, &quot ; Well, you know that's the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.&quot ; She was like, &quot ; Have you ever thought about being a professor?&quot ; I said, &quot ; No.&quot ; She said, &quot ; Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,&quot ; right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, &quot ; Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.&quot ; And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, &quot ; How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.&quot ; And I'm like, &quot ; Oh, wow.&quot ; So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, &quot ; I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side.&quot ; So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, &quot ; Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!&quot ; And I'm like, &quot ; Oh my God.&quot ; (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, &quot ; Your daughter should be a professor.&quot ; And my parents like, &quot ; Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.&quot ; (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. &quot ; Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.&quot ; And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, &quot ; If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.&quot ; So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, &quot ; Oh man, that's really what I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,&quot ; and my parents were like, &quot ; Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.&quot ; (laughs) &quot ; You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?&quot ; That's my mom, right? Like, &quot ; Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.&quot ; So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, &quot ; Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.&quot ; So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, &quot ; Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.&quot ; So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like &quot ; I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.&quot ; I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, &quot ; We should just do away with prisons,&quot ; prison abolition, like, &quot ; We don't need prisons in society.&quot ; And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, &quot ; Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society.&quot ; So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, &quot ; Oh, you did that and so you get out,&quot ; but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, &quot ; Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,&quot ; people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don't know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, &quot ; Well, I learned that on TikTok.&quot ; Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, &quot ; Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!&quot ; I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, &quot ; Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?&quot ; And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, &quot ; I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.&quot ; And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, &quot ; I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.&quot ; So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.xml HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ha, Thao. Interview April 19, 2022 Description An account of the resource Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at MiraCosta College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-21 Subject The topic of the resource Education Gangs -- Texas -- Houston MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program Refugees -- Vietnam Transitions (Program) Victims of violent crimes Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-19 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thao Ha Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Houston (Tex.) Oceanside (Calif.) Vietnam Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Thao Ha Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history History Department internship Immigrant experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/35e9e4684adf94123fb801dc0efe5b35.pdf 4f2797a71fce1b3f3f8626ce7b872d70 PDF Text Text THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, “Oh my God, it must have been so scary.” (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 1 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, “Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives” by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or…? Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 2 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, “How come you weren’t a pilot when you were already a pilot?” And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, “Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.” And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, “Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.” Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 3 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs; two, it was warm (laughs); and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, “Go back to my own country,” you know, “Go back to your country.” And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I—I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, “Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,” and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 4 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, “Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,” right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was—you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 5 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you’re in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, “Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,” and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, “They looked like gangsters,” and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 6 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, “Oh my God! We know him,” but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents-my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, “I did this like three years ago.” (laughs) Right? So I came home and I-and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, “Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now.” So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 7 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, “Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.” And my parents were like, “Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?” And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, “Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.” And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don’t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, “Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I’ll just figure it out later and take the test.” Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it—or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking “Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.” And going more towards thinking “Well maybe I'll just get a job,” because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, “I don't know what I'm going to do.” And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, “That's it. I'll just go get a job.” And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, “Okay,” something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, “Okay, that's it, it's time to—" it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, “Okay if I go back to school,” which I definitely wanted to do, “I will study something that I want to.” And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, “Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!” And I thought, “Well, I will study law,” so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, “Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,” and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 8 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie’s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, “Okay, we got to get out of here,” right? “We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.” So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like-and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, “Okay, we got to get out of here!” And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, “There's a fight outside. We got to go!” So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, “Bang, bang, bang.” We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, “Why does my arm hurt so bad?” And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, “Fuck, I got shot!” right? And everybody's like, “What, what, what!?” And so, I'm like, “Drive to hospital!” Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking “What just happened?” And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe just Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 9 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 what happened.” And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, “Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.” And I was just like, “Ow!” It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, “No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this.” Like, “If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here.” I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, “Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,” right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, “Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.” Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, “Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter.” I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, “Oh, you see that?” And so, he was pointing, and he said, “That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm.” And then he goes, “Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.” So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He’s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, “So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.” So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, “Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.” And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents “Two millimeters.” That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, “Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up.” Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 10 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, “Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!” You know you watch on TV and it's like, “Let me know if you're cold!” Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, “I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it’s just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again.” Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, “What are your goals?” I was like, “Well I want to play volleyball again.” And he was like, “I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work.” Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, “I will write with my right hand!” So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, “Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything,” right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, “People study Vietnamese people?” It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. “Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.” So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 11 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, “Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.” And I will never forget. She's like, “Oh, I know you.” she's like, “You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?” And I said, “No,” and she said, “Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!” And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, “Wow! I feel so special.” So, I said, “Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.” (laughs) And she was like, “You want to go to law school, huh?” So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, “Do you want to work eighty hours a week?” And I was like, “No.” And she said, “Well, you know that’s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.” She was like, “Have you ever thought about being a professor?” I said, “No.” She said, “Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,” right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, “Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.” And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, “How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.” And I'm like, “Oh, wow.” So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, “I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side.” So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, “Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!” And I'm like, “Oh my God.” (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, “Your daughter should be a professor.” And my parents like, “Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.” (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. “Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.” And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, “If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.” So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, “Oh man, that's really what Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 12 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,” and my parents were like, “Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.” (laughs) “You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?” That's my mom, right? Like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.” So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, “Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.” So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, “Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.” So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like “I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.” I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 13 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, “We should just do away with prisons,” prison abolition, like, “We don't need prisons in society.” And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, “Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society.” So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 14 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 15 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, “Oh, you did that and so you get out,” but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, “Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,” people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don’t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, “Well, I learned that on TikTok.” Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, “Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!” I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 16 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, “Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?” And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, “I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.” And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, “I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.” So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 17 2022-05-11 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ha, Thao. Interview transcript. April 14, 2022. Description An account of the resource Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at Mira Costa College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thao Ha Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-14 Subject The topic of the resource Education Gangs -- Texas -- Houston MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program Refugees -- Vietnam Transitions (Program) Victims of violent crimes Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam) Houston (Tex.) Saigon (Vietnam) San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">in copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Thao Ha License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-21 Type The nature or genre of the resource text Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history History Department internship Immigrant experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Christine Frazier Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lucy HG Solomon OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 HG Solomon, Lucy. Interview April 17, 2025 SC027-079 57:03:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was conducted in partnership with the CSUSM History Department, and made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm California State University San Marcos -- Faculty ; California State University San Marcos. School of Arts ; California State University San Marcos. Biology ; California State University San Marcos. Cognate Collective ; Physarum polycephalum ; Artificial intelligence ; Art and artificial intelligence ; Interdisciplinary approach in education ; Border Art Collective ; Oileán Ruaidh (Ireland) ; Mars Rover Project ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Environmentalism in art ; California State University San Marcos. Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory Lucy HG Solomon Christine Frazier sound HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4e72dfbca93bb6ce80c3ebed9f23b333.mp4 Other video English 1 Introduction Christine Frazier, a graduate student at CSUSM interviews Lucy HG Solomon about her work as an artist and a professor. CSUSM ; Lucy HG Solomon ; art 0 ["[\"\"]"] 33 League of Imaginary Scientists, NASA, and the Mars Rover Project on Oileán Ruaidh Lucy HG Solomon discusses her work with the League of Imaginary Scientists, NASA and the Mars Rover Project on the Irish Island, Oileán Ruaidh. She discusses how Oileán Ruaidh resembled Mars with its red soil, and the significance of such work. She created a reverse NASA study where she examined the future of the island and asked the same questions that the rovers were asking on Mars. They were asking questions such as: Is Earth going to look like Mars in the future? League of Imaginary Scientists ; NASA ; Mars Rover ; Mars ; Oileán Ruaidh ; Lucy HG Solomon 0 [""] 389 Planet Mentorship Project and Juliana Goodlaw-Morris, Sustainability Manager at CSUSM Lucy HG Solomon discusses the Planet Mentorship Project which she worked on with Juliana Goodlaw-Morris, the Sustainability Manager at CSUSM. She discusses thinking about how students relate to the planet. It is an interdisciplinary project which pairs mentorship, art making, and community building together. Ariel Stevenson ; Peace Corps ; Juliana Goodlaw-Morris ; Planet Mentorship Project ; data visualization 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 836 Student involvement in Data Stacks at the Kellogg Library Professor HG Solomon discusses motivating students, and how it's really rewarding to have students have their own research and creative work acknowledged through a grant. Students have contributed to the art exhibition Data Stacks, which is an exhibition space in Kellogg Library Kellogg Library ; Data Stacks ; CSUSM library ; grants ; art exhibitions 0 [""] 897 Cesar Baio at the University of Campinas in Brazil Professor HG Solomon discusses her work with Cesar Baio at the University of Campinas in Brazil. She earned a Fulbright Scholarship to go to Campinas in Brazil in 2018. They also began the art collective titled Cesar and Lois. Her interdisciplinary work focuses on art and science while integrating technology. Cesar Baio ; University of Campinas ; Brazil ; Fulbright ; Artificial Intelligence ; Cesar and Lois ; art collective 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 981 Lumen Prize for Artificial Intelligence Professor HG Solomon discusses how she won the Lumen Prize in her art exhibition that to made a statement about what technology serves. &#13 ; She discusses questioning the trajectory of technology, and reflecting on AI usage. &#13 ; AI ; artificial intellegence ; Lumen Prize ; technology use 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1167 Nature as a blueprint for technology HG Solomon discuses her work questioning what would happen if nature were the blueprint for technology. She worked with Dr. Betsy Read in the Biology Department at CSUSM. Biology ; Betsy Read ; CSUSM ; AI ; artificial intellegence ; nature 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 1195 Using the yellow slime mold, Physarum polycephalum as a tool to explore AI development and logic. Professor HG Solomon discusses what kinds of logic that governs AI development, while exploring the logic of Physarum polycephalum, a yellow slime mold. She integrates the logic of Physarum polycephalum into city development models. Palo Alto ; Physarum polycephalum ; AI ; Artificial intelligence ; yellow slime mold ; CSUSM 0 [""] 1356 Data Lab, which is the Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory Professor HG Solomon describes the Data Lab, which is the Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory that has four students work on art projects that bridge art and science. The Data Lab partnered with Dr. Betsy Read in the Biology Department at CSUSM. Data Lab ; Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory ; Dr. Betsy Read ; Biology Department at CSUSM 0 [""] 1550 Professor Sandra Doller- CSUSM Professor Professor Sandra Doller collaborated with Professor HG Solomon on the text that was tweeted from the Physarum polycephalum project. Professor Sandra Doller ; Physarum polycephalum 0 [""] 1628 Plant biologist Dr. Joanne Chory- Salk institute Plant biologist Dr. Joanne Chory investigated a type of plant hormone related to plant growth at the Salk Institute. She hybridized Arabidopsis in order to make agricultural crops like tobacco. Professor HG Solomon contemplates the importance of one day in the life of a plant, and this leads her into discusses the nature of time. Salk Institute ; Dr. Joanne Chory ; Plant biologist ; plant hormone ; time 0 [""] 1908 The passage of time Professor HG Solomon contemplates the passage of time after reading the book The Passion According to G.H. by Clarice Lispector. She shows the viewer models of Earth's timeline from the Big Bang and contemplates how we view time as a human. time ; Clarice Lispector ; The Passion According to G.H. ; Big Bang 0 [""] 2602 Oulanka Research Station Professor HG Solomon discusses how she was commissioned by the Oulanka Research Station in Finland. She explored how to use these data sets that are collecting data about temperature, individual species and soil responses to climate change and how can this data be incorporate into an AI program. Oulanka Research Station ; Finland ; AI 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2936 Mentorship at CSUSM Professor HG Solomon discusses mentorship at CSUSM. David Avalos was her mentor in the arts. He helped her understand the impact of the art she was creating. She emphasizes the importance of collaboration in the arts as a means to grow and learn. She discusses the Cognate Collective, a collective involving Misael Diaz's and Amy Sanchez at CSUSM. She discusses the importance of the Border Art Collective. Cognate Collective ; David Avalos ; mentorship ; Border Art Collective ; collaboration 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 3347 Closing The interview concludes. 0 [""] oral history Oral history interview of Lucy HG Solomon, April 17, 2025. Lucy HG Solomon is a professor in the Art Department at California State University, San Marcos. In this interview, she discusses professional collaboration and her interdisciplinary art projects, along with how she uses interactive media to help people understand complex scientific subjects. She reveals the importance of understanding the implications of scientific innovations for students. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.135 --> 00:00:24.015 Hello, this is Christine Frazier and today I'm interviewing Professor Lucy HG Solomon, for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History Program. Today is April 17th, 2025. This interview is taking place at the CSUSM campus. Professor HG Solomon, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:24.015 --> 00:00:25.855 Thank you for having me. 00:00:25.855 --> 00:00:33.585 Could you tell us a little bit about how you came to teach at California State San Marcos and about your career? 00:00:33.585 --> 00:06:22.754 Yes, for sure. I would love to share a little bit about my creative journey. I was part of an art collective called the League of Imaginary Scientists, and that was from 2006 until--really for about 15 years. So around the pandemic, we shifted, but this was an art collective created with collaborators in Los Angeles and had a very playful approach to incorporating scientific themes into interactive artworks. And we had some acclaim. We had the great opportunity of working with NASA to strangely do a study on Ireland--in Ireland, on an island that was in a narrative way, a sister or a twin to Mars. And the island is called Oileán Ruaidh. It means the Red Island in Gaelic. And so this was during the first push to get really the public excited about the Mars Rovers. And we did a reverse future, or a reverse NASA study where we examined the future of this island and asked the same questions that the rovers were asking on Mars. The rovers were asking questions like: was Mars anything like Earth four million years ago? And we were asking, is the earth going to look like Mars in the future? And so we took the same kinds of samples that the rovers were taking and asked the same kinds of questions. I say that as a preamble because it is that kind of work, this community based, environmentally-oriented, interdisciplinary work that drove me to come to Cal State San Marcos. The founding of CSUSM--what is notable because the size and the nature of the faculty, the size of the university, the nature of the faculty, led the campus to be stridently interdisciplinary. That kind of thinking across disciplines allowed me to work here. And I say, allowed me to work here because I had applied for other positions, and really I had to transform myself to become the graphic design teacher or the media arts teacher or an art professor. And I did work at other institutions. And here I could be unapologetically an interdisciplinary artist. So that's what brought me to Cal State San Marcos. And I'm surrounded by colleagues who work in this hybrid way, and sometimes their work is quite fascinating and really drew me to wanna be here. An example is my colleague, Professor Judit Hersko, who like me, really bridges the world of art and science. When I came here, she had--maybe not recently--but had gone to Antarctica as part of an NSF grant. There was another colleague who is now retired, Deborah Small, who is notable because of her work that happened very organically with tribal communities, where she found that she had a very important--really a critical and perhaps threatened plant on her property in Rainbow where she lives. And tribal members ended up coming to her property as a meet-gathering place to develop crafts based around this plant. They ended up collaborating on a book where she photographed native species. And that became a resource, really for that group. And I have that ethnobotany photo group, photo book somewhere in my library here. But I came to Cal State San Marcos totally excited about the faculty here. Really historically important faculty as well, like David Avalos, who has a background working on border art issues with the Border Art Collective and is a prominent Chicano artist who has recently retired, but is quite really a cool guy. In fact, I have some things of his, I have his hot chili pepper that came from somewhere, and there's a book over there that Trader, Survivor, Icon that has his work in it. Thank you for passing that. Yeah. So this is, this features David Avalos's work. This is an important piece that he made that has also exhibited in the Escondido Center for the Arts. So there was this rigor of artistic creation that was evident in the colleagues who were here and a total encouragement to think and work outside of traditional artistic boundaries. 00:06:22.754 --> 00:06:29.305 That sounds wonderful. Could you explain your work on the Planet Mentorship Project? 00:06:29.305 --> 00:13:31.981 Yes, definitely. So as a faculty member at Cal State San Marcos, we balance a research and creative activities trajectory where we get to make art and write about the things that we care about. And, we do--of course, we're professors, we teach, and we also think about how we contribute to the campus community and the community at large. So one of the ways that I have found a way to be involved in the global community and to engage students in thinking about how they relate to the planet is a project that was conceived across different areas of the university. The arts: that's me. And then Juliana Goodlaw-Morris is, she is a former Peace Corps volunteer who really has worked across her professional career thinking about the use of resources. And she heads our sustainability efforts on campus. So she has become a close collaborator when I think about the impact of students' education and also their art on the environment and how to connect those more closely. Then the third person who started this project, and I'll talk about the project in a second, but it's Ariel Stevenson, and she is somebody who is thinking about inclusive excellence. That's her role on campus. And she brought to Juliana and me discussions around inclusive sustainability, how to engage the wider, the broader student body in environmental issues, environmental issues that really touch students in their homes, in their, uh, communities. And yet maybe they haven't studied environmental issues or they haven't developed the tools to really grapple with how they might become involved in the environmental issues across the planet. So we started this program. We started a program called the Planet Mentorship Project, and I am a professor in the arts. My specialty is data visualization. And when I started teaching data visualization, it was not that commonly understood. Now it's so obvious. I think actually COVID really made people alert to graphing in dynamic ways because they wanted to understand complex data sets quickly, and the literacy around data visualization across the world suddenly exploded. I work with students to create data visualizations around their lived experiences with daunting environmental issues and the data sets that are related to those. So in the Planet Mentorship Project, we pair mentorship, art making, and community building. And it's--we have some fun together. I'll show you a couple projects too or I'll talk about a couple projects. This is one student, Aidelen Montoya, who she made a data visualization that looks at the future of sea rises across the globe, but specifically relevant to the Philippines. And as a Filipinx student, she also examined her own ties to the Philippines and started to use beading, which is a traditional Filipino practice, and decided that she would bead these future maps. So this map of 2050 notably has much of the Philippines underwater, and this was an entry point for her to connect more with the place where her mother immigrated from, as well as explore environmental issues. So that's really the goal. Another, another work by Aidelen, I just have a couple of hers here--she looked at redlining in San Diego and made this dynamic embroidered map that really makes an inverse of the redlined areas and invited students who visited the exhibition at the Data Stacks on campus to look at where they're from and to see was this one of the areas that was excluded to someone who looks like me, or in this case, not me, but a student of color and their family. So that project has existed for about--we're in our third year and we are continuing it looking each year for a new cohort of students whom we hope to engage in arts in a dynamic way, and at the same time celebrate their own developing interests in nurturing the planet and examining the very critical issues around environmental injustice and the nuances of how that might have impacted their own family life. Some students live adjacent to factories and only in their critical inquiry really understand the embedded structural challenges that have developed, that have caused hardship and health issues within their families. So it's great. I mean, that's not great. That's problematic, but it is really rewarding to have students get excited about environmental causes which have traditionally not been causes that communities of color have been able to take over. There are often--environmental studies has been an area of study that has been dominated by white students and white scholars. And so you see this intersectional approach also shifting. Who gets to be an environmentalist? Everyone is an environmentalist. We're all affected by pollution. 00:13:31.981 --> 00:13:45.865 For professors or educators that would like to have students do these types of projects, what are some tips or issues that you think they should know about? 00:13:45.865 --> 00:13:50.034 And by? So by types of projects, you mean co-curricular, extracurricular? 00:13:50.034 --> 00:13:56.000 Yeah. Kind of interdisciplinary, getting students to critically examine their own environment and creating, you know-- 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:57.394 This project, the Planet Mentorship Project is a real commitment, and one thing that we do is we pay students. We have a--it's a grant, it's a scholarship-based project where students--and any student can participate--all students on campus are welcome. We usually have the amount of student applicants whom we accept. So it's kind of worked out perfectly. I don't wanna say that the only way to get students involved is to pay them, but it's really rewarding to have students have their own research and creative work acknowledged through a grant. And it may be the first time that they feel that they're acknowledged as an artist and a scholar. At the end of the program, we have a panel, the students discuss their work. We have an art exhibition at the Data Stacks, which is an exhibition space in Kellogg Library. 00:14:57.394 --> 00:15:11.544 Okay. Very cool. And I know, moving on a little bit, that you've also worked with Joanne Chory at the Salk Institute. Could you explain your work there for us? 00:15:11.544 --> 00:22:32.704 Yes, yes. So around the time that my, that the Art Collective, the League of Imaginary Scientists started to stop doing the kind of crazy art installations we were making around science, like the one that I described of the Inverse Mars Study. I started working with a Brazilian media artist and scholar, Cesar Baio, who is based at Uni Camp, a university in Brazil. It's the state university of Campinas. And we, we started to collaborate sometimes in person. I had a Fulbright to go to Campinas in Brazil as well as a few other places, but I spent a significant amount of time in 2022 there. We began working together in 2018, and we worked also between these disciplines of art and science while integrating technology. So our first artwork actually garnered us a pretty cool prize, the Lumen Prize in Artificial Intelligence. And this is a prize for the arts, for digital art. But this particular sub award, this award was for excellence in critically examining artificial intelligence. And that is what we started to do. We started to make artworks that use scientific principles often through collaborating in labs and with research scientists to make a statement about what technology serves. What the purpose is, how it intersects with society and nature. And that sounds all pretty crazy and complex, and I'll try to say it in a couple different ways. So we also make art that is often living. So we'll make a living sculpture rather than seeing just a piece of wood, it might be a wooden structure that incorporates living plants. And from those plants we receive live signals. Those signals become part of the art project. Our--so Cesar Baio and myself, we have the collective's name is Cesar and Lois, and one of our goals is to question the trajectory of technology, including artificial intelligence. And one example of that is thinking critically about the basis of technology, the basis of AI as a neurocentric or human rewards-based system. So a lot of--most AI systems, all programs, all AIs require data sets. And most of those databases come from--these are training databases and they come from human language models. They also--and those aspire to replicate human logic. Other rewards based training models, reinforce behavior that is very also human. Humans, when we get food, we feel rewarded. When we do certain things, we are also motivated by this internal reward. Hopefully that's not our only motivation. AIs are currently being developed in these ways. So Cesar and I started looking in it from an artist's perspective. So we're not AI specialists, but we incorporate artificial intelligence programming into our sculptures. We started thinking, what if nature were the blueprint for technology? And we started looking first at very simple systems, microbiological systems. We used one organism that we really got turned onto by a biology professor here at CSUSM, Dr. Betsy Read. She gave us a sample of slime mold, Physarum polycephalum. That is a really cool, fast growing yellow organism. It started a whole fashion craze for me where I only wore yellow for a long time 'cause I fell in love with this organism. And I worked with teams of students here at Cal State San Marcos, and we made art installations where Physarum polycephalum would make decisions and we would base our own computer system on that organism. And the big question was, you know, what kind of logic does this organism have? The organism is kind of interesting. It's not unlike some other kinds of networking organisms like, like fungi, although it's not a fungi. It was misclassified as fungi for a long time by scientists and then unclassified. But Physarum polycephalum or slime mold, which you can see out in the world in gardens. It's a networking organism that shares its resources across all of the nodes of its network. And as artists, we went into labs, we had artistic residencies and labs in different countries and different places. And we were able to grow and study this organism and ask, well, what if our own technologies shared resources the way that Physarum polycephalum does this? Um, this kind of wooden structure behind me was a basis for growing Physarum polycephalum. And this is actually a dried, you can't see it anymore 'cause it's all dried up. But that is where we groove the organism across a map of Palo Alto to show would Palo Alto and East Palo Alto--kind of the wealthiest and the poorest neighborhoods in California and maybe even the whole country. We were curious would Physarum polycephalum  organize those cities the same way that humans do? And what we found in our experiments is that Physarum polycephalum will redistribute wealth across its whole network. So we started using, in a way, the microorganism as a tool for data visualization and recalibrating our understanding of how could we logically change how we think about resource distribution, how societies are formulated. 00:22:32.704 --> 00:22:36.144 And what was the student response to discovering these things? 00:22:36.144 --> 00:23:50.000 We had students who participated, so Kodi Gerritsen was a student of mine at the time. She came to Stanford University with Cesar and me, and we presented this project together. There were three other students who worked on that project. And I started what's called the Data Lab, which is the Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory. And each semester I have about four students who work on art projects that bridge art and science. This is kind of unusual in the arts, but I was inspired and encouraged by my scientist colleagues. And this goes back to CSUSM being a model for interdisciplinary exploration. When Betsy Reed gave me that sample of Physarum polycephalum, she also said, come into the biology lab and experiment and try to figure out how to grow this in an artistic context. This is so fun. And she also allowed--that's actually very expensive. That's a huge resource. I was able to use that lab bench. And the bio tech at the time really helped me, helped keep alive the organism. 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:51.000 True. 00:23:51.000 --> 00:25:11.000 And it was so cool. So, and we did things. We asked questions that maybe the scientists hadn't been asking, like, how do I grow this on a map? How do I grow this on the surface of a book? We started to grow Physarum polycephalum over pages of a book to question in, in many cases, we use Descartes--books about that, questions about humanities, really what Descartes would term as man's control over nature. So we looked at these traditional tenets of Western civilization and what are considered the kind of great models of thinking and Western thought, and started to challenge those with layers of logic on top of those. So we had a computer system that we set up that took photographs of a book as the organism grew across it. And as the organism grew across the book, then the text started to change. So first it would say, only man is the king and queen of nature, only men. We used this, a quote from Cicero, only man can reverse the flow of rivers. And as--that's a paraphrase-- 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:12.000 Yeah. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:26:24.000 --and as the organism grew across, it would say something very unintelligible. But what was really cool, actually, we had the computer system tweet out the--back when Twitter was a thing instead of, before it evolved--the organism would tweet updated text from the book, devolving this text. And at that time when, when we did this, this was in 2019, we worked with another professor in literature here on campus, Professor Sandra Doller and Professor Doller, she brought her literature students in her critical analysis team, and they workshopped the text that the organism has--had published within Twitter. And they really looked at it as a poem or a body of language. It was really fun. And we filmed that and we have a video of those students' analysis of the living microorganisms. So that's cool. That is a very long background-- 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:25.000 Yeah. 00:26:25.000 --> 00:28:26.000 --to say that Cesar and Lois, uh, Cesar Biao and I, we, we were working with art and science, and when you asked about our work with the Salk Institute, we had had this body of work already. And so we had been--I guess, tried--we had had some chops proven within this arena of questioning this barrier between art and science that has been erected gradually over years, but maybe is being dismantled quite often at CSUSM And we were invited to and offered a commission to create a work with a biologist, a plant biologist--a plant microbiologist, Dr. Joanne Chory at the Salk Institute. Dr. Joanne Chory is known for her great scientific breakthrough, which now I think was maybe two decades ago, which was the discovery of a kind of plant hormone. It's not really a hormone, but it's called alchine. Am I saying that right, now? I won't say what it is, a secret thing. Yeah. And she discovered this, something like a hormone that plants release, and specifically the Arabidopsis plant, which is kind of known as a common weed, but in biology labs, it's used quite often to study and--to study hybrids, to create hybrids very quickly. They're, they're great lab rats for plant microbiologists. She, she stu--her discovery of this plant hormone was so cool, because what happens, I think it's, is it oxen? Uh, I'll, I'll find out and get back to you. 00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:27.000 Yeah. 00:28:27.000 --> 00:33:02.000 Her discovery of this thing, this chemical that gets released, occurs when we didn't know that much about how plant cycles are triggered. And what happens is that the Arabidopsis plant, it's very first exposure, it's first day of light, is so important. And if it gets sunlight, then it grows in a certain way. And if it's in the shade, it grows in a different way for the rest of its life. So if it's in sunlight, it doesn't need to compete with a lot of other plants. So it will not grow long roots, but if it is in the shade, it will grow longer roots. And what that means for other plants and for that particular plant, is that it retains more carbon. Because it's embedding more of its metabolic results in the earth and putting that carbon down. And so she was hybridizing Arabidopsis in order to make vast agricultural crops like tobacco have longer roots and help kind of shift this climate change. What stuck with Cesar and me in her study were the themes of, of course the globe and climate, but also time. How cool is it that one day in a plant's life is so important? In some ways that's true with humans. Of course, what happens to us as babies has an impact. But imagine if it was like whatever happened in that twenty four hours of your life, the very first day is a blueprint for forever. So we started to think about timescales and what is time for Arabidopsis? What is time for microbiological organisms for Physarum polycephalum? For a tree that lives for a thousand years? Like the sequoias? What are these different scales of time? And how can we think about time differently as humans? And if we did, what would it do for our decision making? Like if we could think across a thousand-year span? And then we started to think about, I was reading--this was during the pandemic when we had this assignment, so of course we were thinking about time. And even the project got interrupted for a year because everything was shut down, including the Salk Institute for a period of time, or at least to artists. So we were thinking about time, we were having time slowed down and sped up in the strange way that the pandemic infected our lives. And we were also thinking about the deep planetary time. There's an author, a Brazilian author, Clarice Lispector, who had, during the pandemic especially, become quite popular in the US 'cause she was newly translated, even though she's a classically known, and really thought of as a modernist artist and writer--not artist, but literature contributor in Brazil, Clarice Lispector, amazing challenging author, but really interesting. And I started reading her during the pandemic, her work. And she has one book called The Passion According to G.H. That book is really experimental. And in it, she has some framing of a woman's experience as really dipping into her own framing of prehistoric time. And how she, at some point, the sculptor who is a main character in this book, has an existential moment where she crushes a cockroach and she doesn't--her own feelings of self evolve and she cannot really distinguish herself from the cockroach. And so she's talking about, you know, what is our, my own prehistoric memory? Do I have any memory with this? Do I, what do I share with this cockroach? And so we were also thinking about that. Like, what is time according to the planet? 00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:03.000 Yeah. 00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:29.000 Prehistoric time? Are the bacteria that we evolved from, do we have, what kind of memories do we have associated with that? Do we have that? How long can our thinking be? And we were thinking about technology because technology is fast, and if we know anything about what, how we use AI in technology, it's usually to cut a corner to get something immediately. 00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:30.356 Yeah. 00:33:30.356 --> 00:34:11.045 And one of the worst culprits of this is Amazon. So, I like to use Amazon as an example, because of its famous same day delivery. When it, when the system, the AI system is shooting the data through its code to decide who gets to have same day delivery, what is considered are profits and also convenience. What is not considered is the long questions, the long logic. The long sense of time, like what is the impact on the planet? 00:34:11.045 --> 00:34:12.000 Yeah. 00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:35.000 Or on people and populations and culture and communities, when we start to economize our daily interactions and that gets spurred on by these technological tools. And we think of them as tools, but we don't always question the values that they're suddenly implanting. So that's what we started thinking about with Joanne Chory. 00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:36.000 Yes. 00:34:36.000 --> 00:37:15.000 With Dr. Chory. Not necessarily with her--with her, we really focused on Arabidopsis and the plant, and we started growing it ourselves. And during the pandemic, I worked with the Data Lab, and we grew and recorded the, the growth of Arabidopsis. We also started collecting plants all over Escondido, where I lived mostly around the specific property where I was living, which was very natural. And, along with the help of my daughter, who was six at the time, we collected many specimens and dried them and used those as part of the artwork. So I have, I have behind me one of the models that we made for thinking about time. So this circle that you see is the history of Earth starting with the Big Bang. And that became one of the models for allochronic cycles, which was a series of clocks that we made. I'll say clocks, but they're not quite clocks, but they were--there are, it's a series of discs that we designed and one was the cosmos. We thought the longest clock was the cosmos' time and for of the cosmos we embedded all of those specimens into holes, into little discs around the clock, around the disc. And then we had an earth cycle, and we had an Arabidopsis cycle, of course. And we had also a Covid cycle that went very quickly because the virus replicates. And for each of these cycles, we really studied all of these different ways of thinking about time, including viral time, and how fast growing and evolving viruses are. Which viruses, apart from infecting individuals and species are really cool, how they can replicate. So thinking about that kind of time, against the backdrop of cosmic time, those are huge leaps. So we really had fun during that whole year thinking about time. And then we made this model of clocks that I'll share an image of that, that is actually behind you we have some of the discs. I could pull one over. 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:16.000 Sure. 00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:19.000 Okay. I'll try not to knock anything over. 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:21.000 Yeah. 00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:39.000 Okay. You should have had this ready to go. I'll get the cosmos one. Okay. Let's see this up. Okay. I'll just show this one. 00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:42.125 Yeah. 00:37:42.125 --> 00:38:42.000 There's several discs, but I'll just show this cosmos one, because with the cosmos one, you can really see when it rotates that it has these powdered specimens inside of them. And they start--it's kind of cool, I think, how it like moves. And, so each one of these lights up and is powered, but it's also controlled by an AI. So it's controlled by a program that we wrote that takes into account, it's monitoring all of these different discs. So imagine the cosmos: it's spinning, but you barely notice it. Covid is spinning and it's, it's moving quite rapidly. This all exhibited at the La Jolla Historical Society. And then the following year, actually during the same exhibition, was it the same exhibition? It was, we made another version of it because it toured China and it— 00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000 Oh, wow. 00:38:43.000 --> 00:40:32.000 --it was cool because at the time we had two Chinese students who were in instrumental to the development of the project on the Data Lab, Ji Young, and that's her first name, and also, Lee who's Ziwei Lee, and he goes by Lee and Ji Young is now, she's a PhD student at the University of Dallas, at the University of Texas in Dallas. And she also got her master's at USC during the pandemic. So this project was really formative for students and the students, especially those two students because of their background in, I think, you know, design coming from China, but also design that integrates planets in some ways. Ji Young had done some work across designing with different kinds of calendars for one of my, one of the class projects. Anyway, they really informed the project. Kodi Gerrittsen also worked on the project, and she now runs the Makerspace on campus. So she, she was, Kodi was instrumental in developing the Data Stacks as well. And so no, all three of the them were, because the Data Stacks opened the year after the pandemic, we, it was ready to open in March of the pandemic year, and then we sus--it was up, but the official opening happened a year later, almost, I think. 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:57.000 Yeah. And, as you work on these projects, I think it's evident that you're comfortable and you have a lot of experience working with AI. As the university kind of transitions to using more AI, are there any insights or things that we need to think about as we kind of go into this new age? 00:40:57.000 --> 00:42:07.000 Definitely, yes. Thanks for asking that question. So that project, allochronic cycles, allochronic is a word that means when geological epochs are out of sync or when something's out of sync with its geological epoch. And we started to think that, wow, allochronic, that's what we humans are, we're out of sync with our geology and the Earth. And so is AI. AI is making advanced decisions that is having an impact on the planet. So one of the things that the AIL and allochronic cycles did is there were all of these spinning discs, and the AI represented as a screen. So we always have a visual representation of this program that is graphically moving across the screen. So you have--and in this case, the AI is a replica of the cycles. So you can see these discs spinning, but at the same time, what it's doing is it's looking at the current carbon emissions on the planet, which you can get in real time. So if the AI is collecting that for the day and each day projects out-- 00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:07.887 Wow. 00:42:07.887 --> 00:42:14.973 --when the Earth will no longer be habitable if the current carbon emissions are maintained. 00:42:14.973 --> 00:42:15.858 Yeah. 00:42:15.858 --> 00:42:28.678 And so then each day of the clock is the future of--is the day of the clock is like the next hundred to three hundred years. 00:42:28.678 --> 00:42:29.560 Yeah. 00:42:29.560 --> 00:44:02.000 Every day is the Earth's future. And at a certain point in the day, everything stops. And that's when the AI shuts down the clock and says, you know, at this point, the allochronic has happened. Like nothing is in sync. The carbon emissions have made life on Earth no longer possible. As we know it, life on earth as we know it. So that was kind of a challenging--a challenge to AI as well. Even though AI is given this task, it's a predictive task, the question is, really can we make a technology that does take into account the needs of the planet? Our next big project, well, we've had a quite a few projects since then, but we had a commission in the northern forest of Finland. And this was just this past year, we went to the Boreal Forest at the border between Finland and Russia and the North. And we were embedded at a research station, the Oulanka Research Station. And working with scientists who are so dedicated. And I always think of scientists as dedicated. Anyone who is doing research, longitudinal research is doing the same thing for thirty years. That takes so much focus. And most of these scientists, they're coming back--they were for many, many decades coming back to the cold, to the permafrost. 00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:04.000 Yeah. 00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:54.000 Looking, looking--the Boreal Forest actually wasn't permafrost, but in the winter months, looking at their sensors and getting their readings. Now this research station is year long, and they have longitudinal studies and they upkeep these data sets. So one of our goals was to think about how can we use these data sets that are asking questions about temperature and individual species and soil responses to climate change? How can we incorporate that into an AI? And we started to get our own signals. We had started doing this when we worked with a mushroom colony. We, we started getting signals from fungi for another project where we attempted communication with fungi, and that exhibited in Brazil. 00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:55.044 Yeah. 00:44:55.044 --> 00:46:09.715 And this project was creating, using the forest itself, the whole--imagine if the boreal forest, the network of forest were the model for the AI. Instead of a human neural network being the model for computer machine, computer processing or machine thinking, what if it's the forest? And the question for that project was really, does a forest make good decisions? Does it make better decisions than humans? Can humans make decisions like a forest? So I, I think for me, my role, as an artist is what many of the artists do here in this department. We look at an issue, we examine it critically, and then we offer other avenues for society. And it's--the artwork is meant as a question mark. It's meant as fodder for thinking and hopefully will propel new directions. 00:46:09.715 --> 00:46:37.744 It's very compelling. It's kind of, looking at AI, I think in a very unique way, a new perspective. I think many in education and elsewhere, it's just like a simple tool that people use and I think a few people even know, like the impact of AI, you know, on the environment. So this is really, really cool. As an educator, how have you used AI in your art classes? 00:46:37.744 --> 00:47:58.000 That's a great question. I have had individual students who use AI to generate projects. And part of my own requirement is that they contextualize and discuss what that means, what is the, the use of the tool. I am looking at and trying to develop a new curricular focus on AI and data visualization, where along with Cesar Baio and his wife in Brazil--is an AI specialist--named Livia Rubeck. And I am hoping to develop a curricular module with them that examines data sets and methods for mitigating bias in AI by eliminating bias in data sets. So it's a, that is Livia's expertise is examining and identifying bias in AI. Examples of that could be simply that, a whole gender is discluded. 00:47:58.000 --> 00:47:59.000 Yeah. 00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:29.994 So then the results and our understanding of the AI or the decisions aren't going to be as accurate and certainly won't be representative. So I'm curious, I'm not sure how that will play out in the classroom, but that is something I'm currently embarking on, and that I expect will be a year-long study with ideally implementation in the spring. 00:48:29.994 --> 00:48:31.304 Okay. 00:48:31.304 --> 00:48:34.000 So check back. 00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:35.585 Definitely. 00:48:35.585 --> 00:48:39.684 In a hundred years. I'll give you the next--no. 00:48:39.684 --> 00:48:57.000 Yeah. And considering that you are, working in the Art Department, are there any faculty that you'd like to review as being, you know, formative in your journey or impacting your work? 00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:14.000 Definitely. I think there are--there is the, my particular colleague, David Avalos, who was a resistant mentor of mine. I dragged him into taking on that role-- 00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:14.485 That is funny. 00:49:14.485 --> 00:49:57.000 --and then he became an obstinate mentor, a willing mentor. So he's somebody who really--like I mentioned at the very beginning of this interview, David Avalos is a Chicano artist, very important in the history of border art in Southern California, who has brought--married critical thinking, teaching, and art making within his practice. As a colleague, he really, you know, he knows how to ask the hard questions. And that's sometimes what we have to do. 00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:02.433 Yeah. 00:50:02.433 --> 00:52:19.684 With one another, we have to ask, how is what you're making--is what you are making, doing what you wanted to do in the world? And how do you adjust or work harder even? And so I have enjoyed my conversations with him as a model for thinking about my art practice. He has worked in an art collective and did so very thoughtfully with the Border Art Collective. That experience has been really important to how he thinks about the arts. And it has validated many of us in the department in our own work that is collaborative. Oftentimes when you go to different areas of the arts, perhaps the single master artist is celebrated. And we are, many of us in this department say, I'm thinking about the Cognate Collective, which is Misael Diaz's Collective. Professor Misael Diaz with, lecturer Amy Sanchez, who's also on campus. They create work together and sometimes they teach together. And that kind of collaborative making and thinking is pretty formative. It can generate something bigger than the individual's vision. And so David has supported that. I would also say that colleagues in the--and I should say too, that, Misael as a new colleague during the pandemic--I think just before the pandemic he joined our department--has also carried on that tradition of working within a collective, in a really exciting way. 00:52:19.684 --> 00:52:37.164 So thinking just in practice, how do you like forge relationships with other departments? Like how do you network as a faculty. If other people you know, on campus wanted to create an interdisciplinary project? 00:52:37.164 --> 00:53:14.000 I think it sometimes it's about asking a question that's interesting across disciplines. So you Judit Hersko has done so. She started working with--she's an art professor here who worked with she physics professors. And the physics professors, I always think of them as the other artists because they're asking these big questions that maybe are unanswerable and maybe it's the quest that becomes very engaging. As opposed to always having the practical answer. 00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:18.545 Yep. 00:53:18.545 --> 00:53:50.000 But I have found that the scientists across campus are very open to collaboration, and that's so cool. We have some new scientists who are in the microbiology and biological sciences, like Dr. Carlos Luna Lopez and Dr. Erika Díaz-Almeyda, among many others who are just kind of intrepid explorers. And so they're looking at the world-- 00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.125 Yeah. 00:53:52.125 --> 00:54:16.000 --through their own interdisciplinary lens already. So to tap into similar questions, to ask questions together from different angles, then just those initial discussions of questioning builds a framework for questioning together, and ideally bringing in students and having something bigger happen because you have input and expertise from different areas. 00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:24.994 Okay. Well, thank you for letting me interview you today. Is there anything else you'd like to share? 00:54:24.994 --> 00:56:15.000 Yeah. Yes, I would say that the--that trajectory of art and science, there are other avenues that happen and it's, there aren't only--there isn't only one method for collaborating. And I think another, so Judit Hersko has done that. Kristine Diekman, who also retired, she did that. I mentioned that Deborah Small was a collaborator across botany and indigenous practices and photography. So we--I think there's all of these different ways of thinking and working together. And that--I think if I had one, just to tie this whole long statement back to our very, your very first question about what brought me to CSUSM and that I had recalled, it was really the interdisciplinarity of the school. That is what persists. That ability to work across disciplines. I really hope, I think it's been the hope of all faculty who work here because it allows for a lot of freedom. When you are not, I wanna--maybe shackled is too strong a word--but siloed also another strong word, but when you don't have those restrictions, there are many more possibilities. So I really hope that our students feel that we have the--and that the community feels that. We have a lot of majors that are designed for cross-disciplinary explorations. So we have--the new Data Science major takes an art class-- 00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:16.000 Oh wow. 00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:28.000 --the environmental studies, the environmental studies students, those majors can take several different art classes that focus on art and science. The liberal studies students who are going to be the future educators-- 00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:29.000 Yeah. 00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:41.000 --do get a grounding in the arts, which is so important for K-12 teaching. So I just, I'm excited to be in a place where exploration is key. 00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:53.775 Very cool. Well, it was wonderful talking to you today. I appreciate our time together and thank you for contributing to the oral history project. 00:56:53.775 --> 00:57:02.000 Thank you. I hope it's an all right contribution. Thanks for having me. 00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:03.000 Yeah. Definitely. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17.xml HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource HG Solomon, Lucy. Interview April 17, 2025. Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Lucy HG Solomon, April 17, 2025. Lucy HG Solomon is a professor in the Department of Art, Media, and Design at California State University, San Marcos. In this interview, she discusses her collaborations with the League of Imaginary Scientists and with Cesar Baio as Cesar & Lois, along with how she works across art and science to talk about intersections in climate, AI, and society. She reveals the importance of cross-disciplinary exploration for students. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-079 Subject The topic of the resource Art and artificial intelligence Art and science Border Art Collective California State University San Marcos -- Faculty California State University San Marcos. Biology California State University San Marcos. Cognate Collective California State University San Marcos. Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory California State University San Marcos. School of Arts Environmentalism in art Interdisciplinary approach in education Mars Rover Project Physarum polycephalum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-04-17 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lucy HG Solomon Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Christine Frazier Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oileán Ruaidh (Ireland) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lucy HG Solomon License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Art and artists CSUSM history History Department internship Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/77642e5342fb2141d291dcb4f2a39c8f.pdf c2109654a869454e378d11e588fb884f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource HG Solomon, Lucy. Interview transcript, April 17, 2025. Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Lucy HG Solomon, April 17, 2025. Lucy HG Solomon is a professor in the Department of Art, Media, and Design at California State University, San Marcos. In this interview, she discusses her collaborations with the League of Imaginary Scientists and with Cesar Baio as Cesar & Lois, along with how she works across art and science to talk about intersections in climate, AI, and society. She reveals the importance of cross-disciplinary exploration for students. This oral history was created in partnership with the CSUSM History Department and made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lucy HG Solomon Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Christine Frazier Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-04-17 Subject The topic of the resource Art and artificial intelligence Art and science Border Art Collective California State University San Marcos -- Faculty California State University San Marcos. Biology California State University San Marcos. Cognate Collective California State University San Marcos. Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory California State University San Marcos. School of Arts Environmentalism in art Interdisciplinary approach in education Mars Rover Project Physarum polycephalum Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oileán Ruaidh (Ireland) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lucy HG Solomon License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17_transcript Art and artists CSUSM history History Department internship Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jennifer Ho Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tony Ho Tran OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HoTranTony_HoJennifer_2023-04-22.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Vietnam War OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Ho Tran, Tony. Interview April 22nd, 2023. SC027-106 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. csusm Vietnam War immigrants AmerAsians community identity Tony Ho Tran Jennifer Ho moving image HoTranTony_HoJennifer_2023-04-22.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e5132da1d047761a42e4f5b5bd9faf0a.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Tony Ho Tran, April 22, 2023, by Jennifer Ho. 0 19 Childhood and family Tony talks about his childhood in Sioux City, Iowa. He talks about his family’s restaurant, their experiences running it together and his reflections growing up as a restaurant kid. Tony also discusses the communities he grew up around. Pittsburgh ; Tyson ; John Morrell ; The Cow ; family business ; immigrant businesses 0 836 Names Tony shares the stories behind his American name, his Vietnamese name and his family name, as well as reflections on immigrant children with dual identities. Catholic school ; Pittsburgh ; Mo Ngoc Tran 0 1516 Escaping from Vietnam and losing Nhung Tony says that his parents had wanted a daughter, and why that may have been due to the loss of his father’s sister, Nhung, as they fled Vietnam. He goes on to share his parents’ immigration stories. Fall of Saigon ; Malaysia ; Pulau Bidong ; Pittsburgh ; Phillippines ; China ; South Vietnamese Army ; American imperialists ; Saigon ; Da Nang ; bar girl ; AmerAsians ; Huynh Thi Sam 0 2909 Family relationships Tony talks about the relationships between himself, his mother and his grandmother, and between his cousins and their parents, as well as the prevalence of abuse within Asian families. mother-daughter relationships ; mixed-race children ; abuse ; ADD 0 3488 Who gets to say they are Vietnamese American? Tony reflects on the question: who gets to call themselves Vietnamese American? He also talks about his relationship with non-Vietnamese Americans and the ways he is embracing into his Vietnamese identity. Vietnamese identity ; Vietnamese language ; American identity ; Paris by Night ; Little Village, Chicago ; Pilsen, Chicago ; Hispanic ; Spanish ; Sioux City ; Asian jokes ; Randy Kim ; Vietnamese Student Association ; Pi Alpha Phi ; Black community ; Vietnamese language club 0 4438 Searching for grandpa Tony introduces the story of the search for his American grandfather. He talks about the search in detail and speculates on how his mother felt about this journey and its results. American soldier ; Saigon ; North Vietnamese Army ; Viet Cong ; Reeducation camps ; Finding Your Roots ; Henry Louis Gates ; Jr. ; 23andMe ; AncestryDNA ; genetic testing ; Saigon to Sioux City ; Keith Brown ; Clifton Brown ; FamilyTree DNA ; Colorado Springs ; Leggett, Texas ; Houston 0 6172 Identity and race relations Tony reflects on his newfound identity, and then on race relations in the community and within his family. Blackness ; Asian American ; Hispanic ; George Floyd ; immigrants ; solidarity 0 6632 Sharing our stories in the community and as a profession Tony reflects on secrecy and silence within the Vietnamese community, and the importance of storytelling and sharing. He then talks about his childhood dream of being a writer, and how he got started as an adult. He shares his career pathway and the memoir he is currently writing. Vietnamese community ; stories ; Harry Potter ; English major ; Patricia Sitzmann ; University of Iowa ; River North, Chicago ; Ramit Sethi ; Huffington Post ; Futurism.com ; Neel Patel ; The Daily Beast ; Diacritics ; Eric Nguyen ; Viet Thanh Nguyen ; Diasporic Vietnamese Artists Network ; Christopher Schilling 0 7944 Uncle Clifton Tony talks about the day he met his Uncle Clifton and how he and his mother felt about the experience. He also talks about his attempts to reach out to other family members, and what he has learned about his grandfather. Denver ; Colorado Springs ; Clifton Brown ; Keith Brown ; sisters 0 8476 Visiting Vietnam Tony talks about wanting to visit Vietnam again with his family. The interview is briefly interrupted by a special visitor. Tony mentions his close relationship with his brother. Randy Kim ; Nghi Ho ; Richard Ho ; Sioux City ; Denver 0 Oral history Tony Ho Tran is a Vietnamese American writer in Chicago. In this interview, he talks about his family's immigration story, his childhood as a restaurant kid, and his mother's mixed-race heritage and his search for her father. He also speaks on his search for identity and embracing his Vietnamese heritage as an adult.&#13 ; NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000  00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:16.000 So, today is April 22nd, 2023. My name is Jennifer Hồ (Jennifer Ho), and I’m interviewing Tony Hồ Trần (Tony Ho Tran) for the Children of Refugees, the Vietnamese American Oral History Project. Thanks for being with me here today, Tony. How are you? 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:19.000 I’m doing great! Thank you so much for having me. This is—I’m excited. 00:00:19.000 --> 00:00:26.000 Cool! All right. Okay. So, I just wanted to start from the beginning, the beginning of your life. Tell me when and where were you born. 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:55.000 I was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, 1992, St. Francis Hospital. It’s a hospital that is no longer there. I had the opportunity to visit it years ago. It’s just a parking lot now. But, yeah. That’s where both my parents met each other and where they moved to after they left Vietnam. And yeah. That’s where I spent the first year of my life before moving to Sioux City, Iowa, where my family established themselves and where I grew up. 00:00:55.000 --> 00:01:00.000 Okay. Sioux City, Iowa. Why did your parents move to Sioux City? 00:01:00.000 --> 00:02:22.000 From what I understand, they moved out there because they had heard that there were meat packing jobs out there. Like Sioux City’s a big meat packing town with Tyson plants and the John Morrell plants. And there was a big like Vietnamese refugee community there—that was like established back in the ‘80s and the early ‘90s. And also, you know, as a consequence, also like Hispanic families as well. And so, I believe one of my uncles moved out there first before saying like “Okay, there’s some jobs here. We can move out here and have steady work.” And so, they moved to Sioux City where we all lived and shared the same trailer for, I believe, like the first two or three years of my life until my father got into his mind that they should open up their own business and, you know, stop working for the man, so to speak, and, you know, start generating their own income that way. So, he decided to open up a Chinese and Vietnamese restaurant in Sioux City, and yeah, it was a place called The Cow. They bought a space like this old, this hundred-year-old building out on West 7th and Omaha Street in Sioux City, Iowa. And yeah. That was the first home I can remember like if I really think about it. Like we grew up in the apartments that they had like right above the restaurant. (holds up his right hand to indicate above something) And yeah. Me and my cousins and my brother and I were all restaurant kids. 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:27.000 Oh my gosh. That’s really cool! How old were you when the restaurant was opened? 00:02:27.000 --> 00:03:18.000 I think I was just about two or three. I don’t remember it opening, of course. But my earliest memories are of that restaurant. Like I remember like my brother and I, would al—my cousins would always play like on this wooden staircase that would lead up to our apartments all the time. We would fall off of it constantly (laughs) and like I remember having to bus tables like I wasn’t even as tall as this chair (tapping the chair he’s sitting on) like after running around. Helping fill up peoples’ waters and help take orders and what not. Occasionally bring food out. But yeah. It was a nice little quintessential sort of vision of like what the American dream is or that’s at least what I told myself growing up (laughs). It was probably like immigrants just really coming together as a family and just struggling together, working together, and just trying to make something for themselves. In the middle of the Midwest. 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:19.000 Yeah. 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:20.000 Yeah. 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:26.000 So, there was a Vietnamese community out there for you, even after you left, even after your parents left the meat packing business then. 00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:55.000 Mm-hmm. There was a like—Like I said, like you know with these big companies like Tyson or somebody, you know, they’re not really—they don’t really care. Like they just need people who could come in and work. And so, it’s low barrier and entry for someone who, you know, is fresh off the boat from Vietnam who just wants to make a steady paycheck for themselves and their family. So, yeah. 00:03:55.000 --> 00:03:56.000 Thank you for sharing that story. 00:03:56.000 --> 00:03:57.000 Oh, of course. 00:03:57.000 --> 00:03:59.000 How long was the restaurant open? 00:03:59.000 --> 00:05:05.000 The restaurant was open up until, gosh, I should know this. Well, it’s still open. But my parents and my aunt and uncles, they sold the restaurant back in 2019, I believe. Yeah, that’s right. Right before the pandemic happened weirdly enough. It was like one of those weird coincidences. But they were going to sell this restaurant to a woman who is now running it now and refurbished and revamped the whole place, which is strange because like when I went back to go visit it recently, it looks completely different. Like some of the old charm of it where it’s just like honestly like kind of dirty. Like I remember the floor used to have carpets for years and which is like what restaurant has carpets and carpeting like in there? Like and you know like the walls were dirty. It had like really old like ‘90s decorations and like the fixtures weren’t great and everything. But this woman came in and cleaned house. It looks nice but like it doesn’t look like the home I grew up in. You know what I mean? The restaurant which sort of like raised me and my brothers and my cousins. 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:09.000 How did that feel for you, seeing that it was new and different? 00:05:09.000 --> 00:07:09.000 Oh, it was a trip. I mean like that might—I think my family really had a complex relationship with that restaurant, to say the least. You know, like especially like, you know, things are stressful enough like coming to this country, I can imagine, and trying to raise a family and trying to work with your family as well, you know. So, it was like my dad and his brothers. They were really kind of the owners of this restaurant. And you know, inevitably, you know, under the best of circumstances you’re still going to have issues, you know. When you’re family, like I don’t know, I feel like that created an environment where they just like butted heads a lot more. And so, I mean, like I can tell you, and my cousins could tell you, too, and so could my brother, about like just hearing fights like going on all the time like in the back of the house. And just like knowing that there was always sort of simmering tensions between the brothers because of this, just this restaurant that they had built together. That, you know, ironically enough had given us our entire lives. Like we were able to build a nest egg because of it. Like we were able to move out of the apartments and into like really nice houses because of it, you know. Like my cousins had a house with a pool. That was a big deal. I remember when they bought that. I was so jealous. But like it was a marker that they had—that we were kind of doing the right thing. You know, the right thing being like really working hard and trying to make something of yourself, you know. You know, and to think like a decade before, two decades before, you know, my uncles, my aunts, my mom, they were fighting for their lives, you know? In this war-torn country like not knowing if they were going to have a future. And so like, you know, that’s just one of the—that’s all I’ll say, you know, that tension, the fights that they had. It was just like it was a trade off from the alternative which was, you know, being in a country that they simply could not be in anymore. At least that’s what they tell me. Yeah. 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:13.000 Yeah. Great. Okay. 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:14.000 I’m sorry if I’m rambling. 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:33.000 No! Don’t be sorry. Please don’t. (laughs) I just have to—I’m just marinating on what you said. Thinking about the next step. Thank you for sharing that. So, you said there were tensions between your dad and his brothers. Did you have any cousins? 00:07:33.000 --> 00:09:26.000 Oh yeah. I have—I grew up—I have cousins in Sioux City and I also have cousins in Texas. Chú Oh yeah. I have—I grew up—I have cousins in Sioux City and I also have cousins in Texas. Chú Vượng (Chu Vuong, Uncle Vuong) is one of my uncles. He lived in Texas. He didn’t—I guess he didn’t—I never asked why but I guess he didn’t want to go in on the scheme to like move out to the Midwest and work in meat packing and then open up this restaurant. But they built a nice life for themselves in Dallas. And I have three cousins there. But the cousins I grew up with in the restaurant there were, yeah, there were three of them. There’s Khanh (Khanh) who is the oldest. There’s Việt (Viet), middle child. And there is Thị, Em Thị (Em Thi, younger sister/cousin Thi). She was the youngest. She was kind of like my sister growing up. Like we were like the closest in age. So, yeah. It was nice. Like we all grew up in that restaurant together for years and it’s weird thinking about it. Because like I remember going to school and just like being so distinctly aware of how different our living situation was from like the rest of the kids, whose parents were like, you know, they’re like lawyers, accountants, like normal stuff. I don’t think there was a single person who worked in the service industry, let alone owning a restaurant. And so, you know, hearing them talk about their family and what they did like during the day. It’s like “Oh, you know, we had a barbeque in our back yards.” Or “We did this and that.” Or I—And if they ever told me like “Oh, yeah. We went to go over to grandpa and grandma’s house” or “Went to go play with my cousins.” It was always to a different house. But like to me it’s like now like the family unit was like one thing. Like we all helped raise each other. We all like interfaced and interacted constantly. There was rarely any private space and so yeah. I remember like being in kindergarten and just being like “Oh yeah. My family is like way different, isn’t it?” and not having realized it necessarily until that moment. Yeah. 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:32.000 Yeah. Okay. What would you and your cousins like do for fun together? Or were you just always at the restaurant? 00:09:32.000 --> 00:12:04.000 Uh, I mean we were at the restaurant but like, you know, we’re kids. Kids are always going to try to like find ways to have fun. So, we would do that. We would play pretend a lot. We would always go to each other’s houses. My cousins, you know, since they had a bigger family, they were like they were making more money. So, they always had like more toys and like video games. I would always like always beg my mom to go over there. Because like, you know, Anh Việt (Anh Viet, older brother Viet) would have like a huge tub of Legos that I didn’t have. (laughs) And so I had to go over there and play with them. Or he would have—he had a Super Nintendo before me, and a PS1, that kind of thing. And it was fun. You know, kids, they try—they make their own fun regardless, you know, of where they are, you know. You really—you see that anywhere. And, you know, I think you can especially see it if you go to like an immigrant-owned business, like a service business. Like you go to any of these restaurants here in Argyle (motions behind him with his left thumb) inevitably you’re going to see a restaurant kid. You’re going to see a kid like on his iPad or his laptop or a book, drawing like in a corner. It’s a table that’s like their table, that kind of thing. You hear kids screaming in the background. And like—Or you also see like a Hispanic restaurant. Like my barber, he’s a Hispanic man who immigrated here from Guatemala and his family lives at that barber shop, pretty much. Like after school, all his kids are there. They’re running around. They’re screaming. And to me, I mean, like that’s a marker of a good business who’s like they’re putting in everything they can for you. (laughs) Because they need your business. But to me it’s the marker of a family, like getting by, doing the best they can, trying to make something of themselves in this country. And I think that’s beautiful. You know? Like I’m always really happy whenever I go into a Vietnamese restaurant. I see a kid there. I’m like, “Ah, I’ve been there, man. Like I know how it is.” And, you know, they might not like it but, you know, there’s a lot in that not to like. But like, you know, one day they’ll come back to look and appreciate, you know, having something like that. Having the ability to grow up with your parents so close to you all the time, you know. That’s not necessarily a luxury that, you know, even, you know, kids with like parents with normal jobs have, you know. Their parents are away like most of the time. But no. Not with me and my cousins. Like we were always there with our family. But yeah. That’s all to say that kids find their own fun. (laughs) No matter where you are, you just turn whatever into a playground. 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:07.000 Do you still talk to these cousins? 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:25.000 Oh yeah! Not like regularly but like we interact as much as we can with like social media. If I’m ever in their city, like I’ll be sure to hit them up. If they’re ever in Chicago, I mean, I hope they know they can always like give me the head’s up and we can meet up for coffee or drinks or something. But yeah. I love my cousins like dearly. Yeah. 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:30.000 Yeah. That’s great. That’s really great that you have that shared experience together. That’s very special. 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:31.000 Of course, yeah. 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:41.000 Yeah. That’s awesome. So, you mentioned that the other kids had families where their parents, you know, were lawyers or whatever, normal—normal office jobs— 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:43.000 Quote, unquote, “normal” kids. 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:51.000 Yeah. So, were these other Vietnamese kids that you’re referring to? Or like white kids? Or like what was— 00:12:51.000 --> 00:13:56.000 Oh sure, yeah! I mean, Sioux City, Iowa is like primarily white. The school that I went to growing up was a Catholic school. And I was in Catholic school pretty much all my life until university. Not pretty much, that was just all my life until university. And so, it being a Catholic school meant it was also a private school. So, it was like a lot of white kids. I remember we had maybe two Black kids and one other Vietnamese kid in my grade. But he didn’t—I didn’t like have him my class until like I think it was in maybe middle school. It was up until then. But yeah. Mostly white kids which I think added to the idea that I was like “Oh, my family is different.” Not only like is our living situation different but like racially I am a different sort of kid. Like I don’t look the same as everyone else. My name is considerably funnier to them like than some of theirs were. Yeah. Mostly white kids. 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:01.000 Okay. You mentioned your last name. Is this your dad and mom’s last name? Like hyphenated? 00:14:01.000 --> 00:18:02.000 Yeah! So, I grew up—When I was born, I didn’t have a name. I don’t think my parents had decided what my name was (laughs) and they just had me and I’m not sure if my mom even knew my gender. They really wanted a girl. (laughs) When I came out a boy, it was funny, because they had a—my mom had sewn together a bunch of girls clothes and they had bought a bunch of girls clothes. So, I remember having like a pink hat and like they—my mom showed me all this later—of course I don’t remember it but she showed me later. It was like this little pink outfit for me and everything. And yeah. When I was born, I didn’t have a name or anything. So, they called me baby boy Ho, which is my mom’s last name, on the birth certificate. And yeah. It wasn’t until my mom had talked to a priest that had helped her and my grandmother establish themselves in Pittsburgh, because apparently the Catholic church was really helpful for them in sort of establishing Vietnamese refugees within Pittsburgh there. I’m not entirely sure what it is. I’ve been meaning to look it up for years like just so I can maybe go back and thank these people. You know, God willing, they’re alive. And—But she went to this priest, and she essentially just asked him like “Hey, can you come up with like a list of like American boy names for my boy?” (laughs) And—Because they, my mom and dad had decided on a boy name for me in Vietnamese which was Đông (Dong) which ended up being my name. It means winter in Vietnamese. It also means money. (Note: the Vietnamese word for money (đồng) is actually different than winter (đông).) I’m not sure which one my mom wanted more for me (laughs). But for the American name, they—this guy—this priest came up with a list of names and my mom chose the shortest one that seemed to be the easiest to pronounce as well, which is Tony. And so, not Anthony, just Tony. And so, they went back to the hospital, and they were like this is the boy’s name. It’s going to be Tony. And so, they had my birth certificate updated and everything to just Tony Ho. And yeah. I took my mom’s name for years. I believe it was because my parents weren’t officially married for, yet, for years, for like years and years. So, I had just kept my mom’s name up until sixth or seventh grade until I got to the point where I think my dad had finally—he was just like “No. We’ll get married, and we’ll just make this legit. Like it doesn’t make any sense that we’re, you know, this is happening.” And so, yeah. They—After that whole process happened, they ended up—I remember I had to go to court and everything. (laughs) Like we had to go to like a courthouse to get my name legally changed. So, officially the U.S. government recognizes me as Tony Tran. But I always write Tony Ho Tran. Like I don’t know. Like it’s for me I grew up Tony Ho, as Tony Ho for like so much of my life. That’s what I know myself as. Like and, you know, I’ll write Tony Tran on checks and everything and on the back of my credit card and any official government document. But I’m Tony Ho Tran. Like I need both those names. Like that’s—my mom is as much a part of my identity and forming that as much as my father is. Like I don’t think it makes any sense that like why I would drop her name at all, especially considering like the struggles that she went through to like raise me and also like my grandma went through to come to this country and everything. It’s kind of a disservice, I think, and kind of an insult if I just dropped that. But yeah. That is why my name is Tony Ho Tran. That’s why I always sign it that way if it’s not an official government document. That’s everything on social media, it’sTony Ho Tran. It’s my byline whenever I publish something in my job. And yeah. That’s kind of the origin of that. 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:04.000 Okay. Thank you for explaining that and sharing. 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:06.000 Of course. 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:11.000 Was it important to your parents that you legally change your name? 00:18:11.000 --> 00:19:20.000 Yeah. I think it was very important to them. I think it was—I’m not sure why. I think they wanted it to be cleaner (chuckles) essentially. They wanted it all to just look nicer in government documents and just to have a record straight. And I think, you know, also part of it like they recognize that like we’re in America now. In America, we take the guy’s name, someone can tell you take the husband’s name when someone marries. And, you know, everyone’s—the father’s name has to be there. It has to be clean. So, and it did help clear up a lot of confusion growing up because I remember, you know, I would have kids over and they would greet both my parents and they knew me as Tony Ho. So, they would go up to my dad and they’d be like “Hello, Mr. Ho.” And I was like that’s weird. I’d be like “He’s not Mr. Ho. He’s Mr. Tran. Like that’s not his name. You can call my mom Mrs. Ho. That’s totally fine.” But yeah. It did—It mainly made things a lot easier just to, you know— We don’t have to get over that like weird conversation where it’s like “No, my—” you know “His name is Tran. I’m Ho. My mom’s Ho.” We don’t have to deal with any of that. But yeah. It—That’s all to say that it was important for my parents that I change my name. 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:22.000 Okay. And did your mom change her name as well? 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:26.000 Yes. I believe she’s Mô Ngọc Trần (Mo Ngoc Tran), now. Yeah. 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:38.000 Okay. Okay. Hhmmm. You mentioned your Vietnamese name is Dong. Is that—This is a complicated question. 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:39.000 No. (shakes his head) 00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:43.000 But how connected do you feel to that name? And who calls you—who addresses you by that name? 00:19:43.000 --> 00:22:17.000 That’s a great question. I love that question. Because like, you know, I feel like with immigrant kids who grow up essentially with two names, sometimes I think it’s kind of funny. But, you know, there’s good reasons behind it, you know. Like you want your kid to grow up essentially like normalized, like just like every other kid. You don’t want them to like have to struggle like with explaining their names to people and I understand that. But that’s all to say when I think about my name, you know, it’s always been family who calls me that. It’s always been Vietnamese people who call me that. No one else calls me Dong, except for mom, you know, Mẹ (Me, Mom), Bố (Bo, Dad), or Chú Vượng (Chu Vuong, Uncle Vuong) or Bác Chính (Bac Chinh, Uncle Chinh), you know, Chú Tuấn (Chu Tuan, Uncle Tuan). They’ll call me Dong. Or my brother will call me Dong sometimes. Or my cousins will call me Dong. When I hear that name, it’s like a hug, you know. It’s just like, oooh, I’m home. (chuckles) I like hearing it. I wouldn’t mind it at all. That’s all to say that I wouldn’t mind it, you know, if you, Jennifer, called me Dong. Like I’d be like “Ooooh, that’s kind of nice, actually.” Or like if my, you know, my partner she called me Dong, that’d be cool too. Like I’d love that. But yeah. I feel very connected to that name. Like I wish I had the gumption to use it more. I wish I had used it more when I was young and just sort of like kept that part of my identity instead. But it's weird, you know. Like I also feel very connected to Tony. Like people—everyone knows me as Tony. Like I think it’s silly that my name is just Tony and not Anthony. Like I love that. It’s just like, what a weird thing. Like I’m officially like Tony, like a nickname. Like I think that’s silly. (chuckles) And—But, you know, I love it and, you know, it has—it’s a story, you know. Like people’s names are stories. And I’m lucky enough to have like all these weird combinations of my name. Am I Tony Ho? Am I Tony Tran? Tony Ho Tran? Am I Dong Ho? Dong Tran? Dong “Trần”? You know, like it’s weird and it’s like I’ve been thinking about this. Because I’ve been trying to write more about like my background and where I came up from. And in a weird way, it really kind of illustrates beautifully like this idea of growing up an immigrant child, a second-generation immigrant child in like this country that like tries to put you into these boxes whether or not you’re Vietnamese, whether or not you’re American. And being second-generation—Are you second-generation? Or are you first? 00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:18.000 I was born here. 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:19.000 You were born here. 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:20.000 So, depending on the definition. 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:22.000 Yeah. Yeah. It’s the depending on—I consider that a second-generation. 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:23.000 I do too! 00:22:23.000 --> 00:24:58.000 Yeah, yeah. But, you know, like I also understand if it’s first-generation. I was always confused about the terminology as well. But like so you understand what it’s like, you know. Essentially, growing up, like not knowing like what identity you immediately fit into because you don’t immediately fit into any identity. And when we think about our names, that is your core—that is the first thing you tell people about you. Like “Hi. My name is Tony.” Or “Hi. My name is Jennifer.” “Hi. My name is Randy.” That’s a person’s immediate connection to you. That name will follow you until you die. That thing will be etched in your gravestone. It will be inked into an obituary about you. Historians years from now will know you by that name, by that identity. And the idea that immigrant, second-generation immigrant kids often have these dual names like these like all sorts of different names that they go by, I think, you know, it illustrates very beautifully sort of like that tension between—with us, like that sort of tension between us and the world trying to pull our identities into separate places, trying to fit them into these little boxes that they don’t fit into. But yeah. That’s kind of like my rant about like immigrant children names like. And, you know, in high school I talked to my cousin about this because Em Thi like because Thi went by Stephanie for most of her life growing up, up until she got out of high school, and she had a conversation with the teacher who asked her what her Vietnamese name was. And she was like “Oh. My Vietnamese name is Thi.” And he just called her Thi for the rest of it, for the rest of the school year. And that was a moment for reflection. It’s like why am I going as Stephanie? I’m Thi. Like that’s what I was born as. Like why would I choose any other name? Like why would I reject this sort of—my Vietnamese-ness, this core piece of my identity? Like I’m ashamed of it. And so now she goes by Thi. And I think that’s beautiful. Like I’m like good for you. Like if anyone can do that, like absolutely, 100%, go for it! Like embrace that, which is, you know, also raises the question like well, why don’t I do it? Like, I don’t know. Like, I like Tony. (chuckles) I also like Tony. Like I like that part of my identity, too, you know. To reject it would be to say like I wasn’t Tony for a while when I was. I absolutely was, you know? Like that’s who I was. That’s who I am. Like I’m Tony. I’m Dong, Ho, Tran, you know, all these different things. 00:24:58.000 --> 00:24:59.000 Thank you for that. 00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:03.000 Yeah. That’s really ranty. That was like me on a soapbox for a while. I was just thinking about it. 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:11.000 No! Not a soapbox at all. I think about that all the time. Because, well this is about you. But I have the same thoughts. So, we’ll talk about me later maybe afterwards. 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:16.000 No. Yeah. No. Absolutely. 00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:20.000 Briefly, I—you mentioned your mom wanted a girl. I’m kind of surprised by that. 00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:21.000 Yeah. 00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:22.000 Do you know why? 00:25:22.000 --> 00:31:16.000 I don’t know why. I think they might have thought it was going to be easier. Or like maybe they were sick of boys because my dad grew up with mostly boys except for one sister who died or, I should say, is like missing. We can get into that, too. But I think—actually, no. Now that I think about it, that could be a big part of the reason why they wanted a girl, at least for my dad. Because, you know, my dad grew up with his brothers. It was him and his three brothers and his younger sister, Nhung. And they, you know, they grew up together like in war. They grew up together through an abusive household. They grew up together through famine and like just being dirt poor, you know. Like that does something. I mean that builds something, that shared trauma, you know. They will always have that as siblings. And I—hearing my dad tell it, he was—he very much loved his sister. He was very protective of her. And like he wanted the best of her, the best for her, and everything. And, you know, and he very much loved her and everything. Like she was the first person he saw when he dropped his rifle and changed out of his uniform from the South Vietnamese Army and went back home after the fall of Saigon, you know. Like he went back and was like “I gotta make sure my sister’s okay.” He went back to go find his sister and his dad, you know. Like he very much cared for her. And, you know, he was able to make it to this country. He was one of the boat people, and he was able to make to this country after getting to—after a few difficult tries including one that didn’t work out that ended up—that resulted in him being arrested and being in a prison for a year. (chuckles) Which is a whole ‘nother story. If you want to interview someone, like interview my dad, like he has a story. He has stories for days. Like the things he’d tell you would blow your hair back. But, you know, any immigrant can do that. Like they—that’s the story. That’s the story of the Vietnamese people. That’s all to say my father loved his sister. And, you know, he was one of the boat people. He came here after spending like a week at sea. They ended up in Malaysia as a lot of boat people did at an island called Pulau Bidong. And he stayed at that refugee camp for I think a year or two, working there, learning English, trying to figure out a place where he could go afterwards. And that place ended up being America where, you know, he moved to Pittsburgh eventually. But all the brothers eventually made it over one way or another. Some waited years. Some tried to get out of it as quickly as possible. The—Nhung tried to make it out too. At this point, she had had a baby and had gotten married with a guy. I don’t know his name. I don’t know the baby’s name. I really should find out. (Note: the uncle was Chú Thịnh (Chu Thinh), and their baby was bé Ngọc (baby Ngoc).) But she had tried to find passage on a boat just like my father as well. But the boat didn’t make it or it just didn’t show up. And yeah. And so, my father just didn’t have—he just lost his sister. But it’s weird, right? Because like they don’t know what happened to her. They don’t know what—He doesn’t know what happened to his sister. I’m sorry. I get emotional about this (starts to wipe tears from his face). Yeah, he didn’t know what happened to his sister and he tried to—He’s always wondered about what happened to her exactly. But, you know, there’s always these rumors, especially with boat people. And I did a lot of research about this because I wanted to learn more about what my father went through—I’m sorry. I’m going to try to slow down my talking —about what my father went through. And, you know, those passages were harrowing. They were so harrowing. You know, not only are you fighting nature. It’s like the sea is trying to kill you essentially. You’re fighting the storms. You’re fighting the people on the boat sometimes who, you know, who just want to take advantage of you. You know, there were families like paying all of their money just to take a shot—like a one in a million shot to leave Vietnam. So, it’s true desperation. And one of the other things that, you know—So like one of the other things that these boats would frequently run them into are pirates. Like these boats would occasionally be absconded by like essentially pirates from Cambodia or Thailand. They would come in and they would just, essentially just take a horrible advantage of these people. They would go on. They’d kill all the men. They would rape the women. They would steal any possessions. And they would just leave the boat in flames sometimes. And I remember talking to my father like years—you know, as a child, you know, asking him essentially about his journey and just sort of asking him about what he thinks happened to his sister. And he’s just like “Yeah. Honestly, like she was probably like—Her boat probably got like attacked by pirates and that was that.” Just to think that like that’s something my father has to live with, you know. That’s a thing that, you know, he has to consider about his sister? (fights back tears) Like this girl he loved, you know? It’s tough. And I think about it. And, you know, this woman I don’t know, Nhung, you know, my aunt. I would love nothing more for him, just to have his sister back, you know. I—you know, you can’t give that to your dad. You can’t give everything to your parents, even though they give so much to you, right? (wipes away tears) I’m sorry. 00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:19.000 I can’t imagine going through that. 00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:20.000 No. Yeah, right? 00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:21.000 Absolutely not. 00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:40.000 No. It’s horrible. But it happens every day, you know, Jennifer? It happens every single day. There’s a family going through it right now somewhere in the world, right now. (wipes away tears) And we just let it happen. 00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:45.000 Was her baby and her husband in the boat too? 00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:52.000 Yeah. Some of them—From what I understand, the whole family went. So, the family’s just gone! Like a cousin I’ll never know, you know. 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:53.000 Yeah. 00:31:53.000 --> 00:32:01.000 An aunt who I’ve never met, an uncle I’ve never met, just gone! 00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:04.000 Do you know—Did your dad ever meet the baby, the child? 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:20.000 Yeah. I believe he was able to meet like his nephew. I believe it was a boy. I never asked him about, you know, what that was like or anything. I should. But yeah. 00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:23.000 Do you know the child’s name? [00:32:21 HO TRAN: No. No, I don’t. 00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:25.000 Okay. And your aunt’s name was— 00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:26.000 Nhung. 00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:27.000 N-H— 00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:28.000 N-H-U-N. 00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:34.000 U-N. Thank you for sharing that. That’s—yeah. 00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:35.000 It’s harrowing. 00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:38.000 Yeah. Absolutely. Do you know what year she tried to— 00:32:38.000 --> 00:33:18.000 I don’t think it was too long after he left. I think he left in ’80, ’80 or ’81. So, she must have left in ’82, ’83. That was sort of the peak period for these people who tried to escape Vietnam essentially, just for the boat people. Where you were just getting like thousands of people each month. Like just trying to make it to one of like Malaysia, or the Philippines, or China, or somebody, somewhere else where they could like find refugee status. (Note: There is a brief cut in the video.) 00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:20.000 —didn’t go through what your parents went through. 00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:21.000 No. 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:31.000 But what do you know, or what else do you know about their journeys here? And also, in what ways do you carry that with you, that kind of trauma? 00:33:31.000 --> 00:47:17.000 Oh, yeah. No. I think that’s a great question. So, like, so yeah. As we discussed, my father’s journey was like incredibly harrowing. And it’s funny because he had—it was really tough for him. Well, it’s not funny, funny (laughs) but it was incredibly tough for him. And the fact that he did it—he tried to do it multiple times. Like I think it’s a testament to how rough things were for his life in Vietnam. I’m sure it was rough in a million different ways. But it couldn’t have helped that, you know, he had served in the South Vietnamese Army and essentially aiding and abetting with American imperialists. Or, you know this is like language that they used, not my own. But he—it couldn’t have been easy for him. It could not have been easy for his brothers or his sister or his dad. And yeah. So, he tried to escape like a lot of different times—two unsuccessful attempts before, you know, third times a charm. He was able to make it out. And his journey was hard even like afterwards having to like live at the refugee camp for years, not knowing like what was going to happen to him, essentially like where am I going to land up after going through all that? And he did eventually make it to Pittsburgh where, you know, he—in America, he just did like a lot of different odd jobs for a while. He worked as a bartender. He worked as a chef in a Chinese restaurant, you know, washing dishes, that kind of thing. Until, you know, he met my mom and my mom had kind of like I would say on the surface a much easier time about things. My mom was born in 1966, the child of an American soldier and my grandmother who, based on her retelling—she won’t tell me outright, but just between you and me and people that are watching this (waves towards camera, and both he and Ho laugh) and listening to this, my grandmother, my bà ngoại (ba ngoai, maternal grandmother), was a bargirl, which were essentially girls who would go out to bars in places like Sài Gòn (Saigon) and Đà Nẵng (Da Nang), like wherever there was like Americans soldiers posted nearby, and go there and just like flirt, kiss, maybe something more with them to make money, essentially, which is, you know, I think about it. It’s not something I’m ashamed of at all. That I know if I talked to my grandma about it, and I asked her outright about it, she would be humiliated, and she might never talk to me again. Don’t want that! My grandmother loves me like so much, and I love her dearly. And, you know, so it’s funny. Like this idea like this is a topic I could never possibly broach with her. But, you know, I just want to let her know that it is totally fine. Like I would never judge her for having to have done something like that, you know, especially, you know, at a time when things were truly kind of desperate for everyone. Like she had to make money some way and, you know, the way that her friends made a lot of money, the way that she ended up making a lot of money was being a bargirl. Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world. And so, the oldest profession for a reason. You know, I’m not a woman. I can’t—I, obviously, couldn’t imagine like the things that she had to go through. But, you know, she used the power that she had, you know, like just to survive. I think that’s something that frankly is like very empowering. Like she was able to wield her sexuality and like her womanhood in order to make money and survive during a very desperate time. And that’s more than a lot of people that she knew could say, like who ended up starving to death or like having their land taken away or whatever else or dying in the war. So, my grandmother was a bargirl at a—I believe it was a bar near Da Nang or if not in the city itself. But that’s where she grew up and she—or not grew up, but she actually grew up in a village hundreds of miles away. I think she was actually like supposed to be wed to a different guy who she didn’t want to like marry at all. Like her parents had arranged a marriage to a man from a nearby village. And she just did not want that. So, her and her friends escaped and, you know, it’s kind of a fun—When you think about it, it’s really kind of like a fun story. They kind of escaped together and they were just young girls. And they were looking to have fun, from what I understand. Like my grandmother wanted to go to the big city and she was just a farm girl trying to live the big city life. And I liked that—I like to think, and I like to hope she did have some fun along the way (laughs). But yeah. I mean—But, you know, that’s all I’ll say. I’m sure things weren’t easy for her as well, you know. Like it’s still prostitution. You’re still doing like just some really tough work. And like having to resort to something like that, you know, I don’t want to take that lightly. Like that was still something that she had to do. It was still trauma, I’m sure, she carries even to this day, into her 80s. And, but yeah. My grandfather, by the way, in the way that my grandmother tells it, was an American soldier who fell in love with her. And they—which is a thing that often happened with bargirls as well, based on my research. They would fall in love with American soldiers like all the time. They would have children with them. They would try to raise families with them. But, you know, tragically he wasn’t interested in like completely starting a family with her, like moving to Vietnam or anything like that, or trying to get her to America. But, he would come back to visit her and her specifically. I remember she, you know, she would tell me stories about how whenever he was stationed nearby, you know, they would go out on dates and stuff. He would take her out on a moped and they would go out and see the country and see the city. Or whatever else. They would go dancing, go drinking, that kind of thing. Eat meals. And yeah. He also had family, though, a family that he, like he was very clear with my grandmother like “I still have a family back home.” And, you know, it’s funny. I think, in times of war, sort of those kinds of things kind of go out the window. Like people, you know, it's easier to accept that kind of thing, you know. It’s war. Things, things are violent. Things are deadly. You don’t know if you’re going to survive the next day. So, you know, why not fall in love, have fun while you can. And he eventually left and by this point my grandmother was pregnant with my mom and she had my mom and was this mixed-race child of this American man. And yeah. My mom had to grow up without a father essentially, without a father, period, her entire life, which was tough for her because I know like—They call them AmerAsians or AmerAsians. Essentially, they’re just mixed-race kids, is what they would call them. Con lai (con lai, person of mixed race) or Mỹ lai (My lai, American of mixed race), they would call these people. And my mom was one of them. She was a My lai or con lai. And because of it, she was like horribly bullied which is something that these kids came up against like all the time, you know. Kids are mean to each other. Kids will bully each other for any little thing. You and I probably know. Like I grew up Tony Ho. That was a silly name. They would make fun of you for any little thing. But especially in Vietnam at that time, if you’re a mixed-race kid, a child of the oppressor, the child of the imperialist, the colonizer, the Americans who tried to come here and change the Vietnamese way of doing things, splitting our country in half, essentially, that to them was like a mark of true traitorous behavior. Like they looked at someone like my grandma and just said “You slept with the enemy, essentially. And you created this child with the enemy.” And they looked at someone like my mom, someone like the rest of the AmerAsian kids, you know, in the country at that time, hundreds of thousands of them, maybe perhaps even millions. And they looked at them as reminders of the violence of something that they did not want to go through, something that tore their country in half. And they took it out on them, you know. My mom was bullied horribly, horribly! Like the stories she tells me. Like it’s horrible. I couldn’t even imagine just being beat up every single day going to school. Being made fun of, you know. They used to do this rhyme with all the AmerAsian kids. I believe it goes like “Mỹ lai, Mỹ lai, mười hai lỗ đít (My lai, My lai, muoi hai lo dit) which means, you know, “AmerAsian, AmerAsian, you have twelve assholes” which is a weird, strange rhyme to bully someone with. (laughs) But they did! Like that’s something my mom heard like all the time growing up. It got so bad like my mom had to drop out of school. She just committed herself to just working on a farm that she lived on. And she was like “yeah. I’m not going to go back. Like I’m just going to—I don’t want to be bullied anymore.” It’s tough. Because like you look at my mom, you can tell she’s a mixed race right off the bat. Curly brown hair, you know, round eyes, double eyelids and everything. Like full lips and her skin was always like darker than everyone else. And she was also tall. Like she just looked different. And so, life was really, really tough for her. And it was also tough for her because like my grandma, my ba ngoai, wasn’t in her life for most of it. My—when my mom was born, my grandmother, she was like “I can’t take care of this kid. There’s no way I can take care of this kid. Like I’m still a bargirl. Like I can’t possibly do this right now.” So, she ended up talking to a family friend, a friend of hers who lived on the farm and worked on the farm, and I believe she owned the farm, and was like “Can you take care of my child? I can’t do this. Just give her a good home and everything.” And so, she did! This woman who ended up being like my, essentially, like my mom’s like other mom that like raised her on the farm, gave her a home, made sure, you know, she ate every day. Gave her a bed. And yeah, my mom was able to have some semblance of—some semblance of normalcy because of this woman. Growing up on this rice paddy. But yeah. Getting to how they got to America. You know, eventually, the United States came to realize that what they did by sending all these young boys over in their teens and some of them like the oldest were probably in their early twenties, over to Vietnam, having a bunch of kids, and then just abandoning them. They’re like “that’s bad.” And so, they—the United States government—made the fair decision to accept any AmerAsian people and give them a track, essentially, to citizenship. My mom was able to take advantage of this. And so, and back then the rules were such that you could bring your family as well, if you could prove that they were your family. And so, my mom and my grandma were able to take advantage of this program in order to essentially just get a plane ticket to America in the late ‘80s. I believe it was like ’88, ’89. Maybe even ’90. But yeah. My mom told me like the night before she went, she threw this big party with her friends, and she said it was like the only time she ever drank (chuckles). And they had some weird like rural Vietnamese stuff to drink. Like they just got a bunch of liquor, and they poured it into a bowl. She told me, I think it was “Yeah. It was very strange. And we would just drink it out of this bowl.” (laughs) With our hands. It’s like that is weird. She was like, “Yeah, yeah. We should try it some time.” I was like, “I don’t know.” (both laugh) Maybe. Maybe my next birthday that’s what we’ll do. But yeah. That’s how they ended up in Pittsburgh essentially. I think they might have had to spend some time in the Philippines just to get the feet underneath them. I know my dad had to do the same thing. Like after the refugee camp in Malaysia, they would send the Vietnamese immigrants to the Philippines where they had schools essentially that helped teach them English, helped teach them very basic things to get by—who’s the President? What a state is. Big cities. That kind of thing. How to order food. How to buy food. Very basic stuff. But yeah. After that my mom flew, landed in Pittsburgh where she was—Like this church helped her and my grandma find an apartment. And they lived in that apartment and my mom was able to find jobs doing tailoring and seamstress, doing it as a seamstress. I think she worked at a mattress factory for her, the first few years when she was in America. But yeah. That’s essentially my mom’s journey. So, like hard, obviously because like she was the child, a mixed-race child, of an American soldier. But also, easy because all she had to do was get a plane ticket. Eventually America was like “You can come to us. Like what we did was messed up.” Being able to recognize like “yeah. That’s our bad.” And yeah. That’s how my ba ngoai, my me, made it here. 00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:26.000 Wow. That’s quite a story! Can you—I want to—I have so many follow up questions. 00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:27.000 Of course. No, no. Take your time. 00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:31.000 So, this other grandmother, the woman who was your mom’s other mother— 00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:32.000 Yeah. 00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:32.000 —That’s not the woman who came to the U.S. with your mom. 00:47:32.000 --> 00:49:17.000 Nope. She, I think, she—Well, she wasn’t blood related to my mom. So, there wasn’t any way that she could have if she wanted to. But I also don’t think she wanted to. She had a farm. Like she had a farm. She had a life. Like she had her own kids and family to worry about there. They weren’t, they certainly weren’t coming to the United States. They were just going to stay, still be there, and still work the farm life and everything. Thankfully, I had the opportunity to meet her before she died. Yeah. My parents they took me and my brother to Vietnam when we were very, very young. I believe I was just five, and he was maybe three. And they just wanted to go back to their country, their home just to see how things were. (chuckles) And so, yeah. I had the opportunity to go to like the farm where my mom was raised and to see how and what that was like and meet the woman who essentially raised my mom. Obviously, being a kid, I didn’t have an appreciation for any of it at the time. It’s something that I desperately want to do which is to go back to Vietnam and see all these places with my parents, you know. Yeah. And just to revisit all these sort of touchstones and stories that they’ve told me over the course of my life about, you know, where they grew up. Like I want to see the apartment where my father grew up. I would like to see the trash heap where he used to dig for food (laughs) sometimes, and snacks, with his friends. I would like to see the river where my mom said that she and her friends would bathe naked and like go skinny dipping, and stuff like that. I’d love to see all these places with them there, you know. But, yeah. That’s all to say she didn’t leave. That woman didn’t leave. She stayed there. 00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:19.000 Okay. Do you know her name? 00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:29.000 No. I don’t know her name. I’ve been told it. I know her name. Like I’m sure if I call my mom, right now, she’d tell me her name. And I’d be like “Oh yeah, of course.” (throws up his hands) But yeah. (Note: her name was Huỳnh Thị Sẩm (Huynh Thi Sam).) 00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:37.000 Okay. Just curious. Based on your observation, what’s the relationship between your mom and your grandmother. Like— 00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:38.000 My ba ngoai? HO: Yeah. 00:49:38.000 --> 00:53:19.000 Yeah. My actual grandmother? So, it’s strange. It’s—Because like growing up, my grandma essentially also helped raise me like during the summers when my parents were working and, you know, we couldn’t—we had the restaurant like all of the time. My grandmother lived in an apartment like right next door. And so, my brother and I would often be there watching T.V., playing around, putzing around. And grandma would be there. And she—My ba ngoai is like the sweetest woman I know. She is, she is about as tall as this camera stand, here. (points straight ahead towards the camera with his left hand) Like she is short. She wears the thick, Coke bottle glasses, and she always looks up at me (both laugh. Tony looks up to the ceiling, imitating his grandmother) like whenever I see her, I’m like “Hey, ba ngoai.” It’s like “Aw, Dong”. Like “hello.” Like “How are you?” She’s the sweetest woman. She’s always like quick to laugh at something that me and my brother do. She’s always quick to ask us how we are doing. If I visit her, she’s doing the classic grandma stuff like trying to put food into me, trying to make me a pot of tea, trying to make sure that I’m as comfortable as possible. Sweet, sweet woman. But to hear my mom talk about my grandmother sometimes, like I understand that there was a side to my grandmother that I do not see. Like the way—And it’s something that I’ve seen when I’ve seen them interact with each other like where they’ll—They’re—You can tell, like “Oh wait. They’re still like mom and daughter.” They’ll still butt heads and like argue with each other. And my mom has told me stories before about how my grandmother, like while she was growing up, was very, very abusive to her, very abusive. Like just hitting her and just beating her, which is insane to me because I look at this woman and like it looks like a strong breeze could topple her over. But like to think that there was a side to her where she was very tough, or she was very—could be very almost malicious, like with my mother specifically, you know. It’s surprising to me. And, you know, even today like their relationship is a lot better, obviously. Like because, you know, ba ngoai’s still her mom. She still loves her mom. But I—my mom will even tell me today, like “Your ba ngoai, like she’s driving me up the wall right now. Like you’ll never understand, Dong, like how mean she used to be and like how vicious she used to be. Like you think you had it bad? Like let me tell you about grandma. Let me tell you about ba ngoai.” Their relationship, I would say, is like, it’s a tense one. The same sort of tension I think—I don’t know. You’ll probably see it with a lot of like gen–intergenerational Vietnamese families where I just like—everyone was just kind of like really tough on each other. But especially, you know, with my grandma and my mom. It could not have been easy for her, right? Raising the mixed-race child in Vietnam at that time. So, I’m sure a lot of it had to do with that, and just taking out her frustrations and everything and her anger like out on my mom, undeservedly, of course. Like this isn’t to make excuses for her. But just to offer up an explanation about, you know, why she might have been like that. But it’s weird, you know. Like I can’t gel it in my mind like this woman I know growing up and used to make me like rice and eggs, like whenever my brother and I were hungry and the woman who raised, who actually raised, my mother, you know. 00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:38.000 Yeah. Yeah. That kind of abuse really does seem prevalent in Vietnamese, in Asian families, which I don’t think they, like Vietnamese-Vietnamese people, would characterize it as abuse. 00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:39.000 No. 00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:41.000 It’s just more normal behavior. 00:53:41.000 --> 00:56:49.000 Yeah. It definitely is. And, I mean, it was something that like my cousins and like I like we experienced to a certain extent. Not nearly that bad. Maybe my cousins (laughing). But maybe, but like not my brother and I. We were still like ; I wouldn’t say spanked. Like my brother—My parents used to, you know, they would get like a wooden spoon or something, and smack us on the hand if we did something bad. I remember like the main form of punishment like she would—like if I hurt my brother or something. Like maybe I punched him or roughhoused him a little bit too hard. He came to her crying, you know. We would have had to like stand in front of her, explain ourselves, like fold our hands and explain ourselves in Vietnamese about what happened. And then, you know, then it was time to dole out punishment based on what she thought. She—her main thing was like “Okay. Go grab some chopsticks.” And then that’s when we knew, like oh no! That’s bad. And so, we would have to grab chopsticks and it was typically like one or two, depending on how big we were (chuckles). And yeah. She would just sort of like hold out your hand and she would like whack our hands if like I punched my brother, like “Which hand hurt your brother?” (makes a motion of whacking something with his right arm) “Whaack!” that kind of thing. But, you know, that doesn’t compare to like some of the things that I’ve seen from like my cousin, Viet. He had it really bad. Like I don’t think they ever hit the girls and if they did, I didn’t see it. If they did, it was probably something like what my brother and I went through. But like my cousin Viet was kind of a troublemaker growing up. I wouldn’t necessarily call him a black sheep, because I love Viet and like the whole family loves him. But they—He was diagnosed with like ADD like pretty early in his life, and it’s tough. Because like I don’t think they knew how to deal with it. They just had no—They couldn’t conceptualize about what that means, you know. Even though it certainly existed in their time. They just like dealt with it the way they knew how to deal with it, which is like by punishing him like severely, like physically. We remember like coming home and Viet being, doing something bad and I would just be like in their living room, playing like with toys or something. And like my Bac Chinh would come in and like just angry as hell and just screaming at Viet for something, like “Why did you do this? What did you do?” And like him just physically taking off his belt and he’d be like, “Come here.” And I was like “Oh my God.” That’s crazy. And just like I realize that. It’s like “Oh, it can—it could be really bad.” Just to hear stories from like second-generation or first-generation Vietnamese kids about like some of the stuff they went through, just casual abuse, you know, just super casual, just like. And I think in our parents’ minds, they didn’t realize like that it was bad. Like it was—Like this is not a thing we do here in America and for very good reason. Like you’re actively traumatizing everyone. Like this is horrible. And yeah. That’s all to say that yeah, that sort of idea where it’s like “This is just a normal thing that we do.” It’s very, very prevalent in Vietnamese and Asian cultures. 00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:50.000 Yeah. 00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:51.000 Yeah. 00:56:51.000 --> 00:57:06.000 Yeah. So, I want to talk about identity, and specifically—This is something that I think about a lot. 00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:08.000 Yeah. 00:57:08.000 --> 00:57:19.000 Who gets to call themselves Vietnamese American? Like what if—How would you—What does it mean to be Vietnamese American? Or Vietnamese? Or American? 00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:21.000 Yeah. That’s a deceptively hard question (rubs his forehead with his right hand). 00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:22.000 Yeah. (chuckles) 00:57:22.000 --> 01:01:37.000 Like it’s just like, well, obviously, I’m Vietnamese American. But yeah. Who—That’s a great question. (stares up at ceiling) I’ll put it this way. I wouldn’t call myself—I don’t know if I’d call myself Vietnamese, you know? Like I don’t know if like if I’m there. Like I know Vietnamese like a four-year-old toddler knows Vietnamese. It’s very bad. It’s part of the reason I mispronounce my own last name (laughs) like “Tran,” “Trần,” like it’s just I don’t—my grasp of Vietnamese is very tenuous. But like it’s still such a indelible part of my identity. I grew up like Vietnamese, surrounded by it. Like food, like the food was like—I literally grew up in a Vietnamese restaurant. I think—yeah. It’s tough. Like I—You can call yourself Vietnamese American, I suppose, if you grew up with Vietnamese parents and, you know, they pass on that sense of identity to you in one way or another. But yeah. I mean like I’ve thought about this. If I have kids, for example, if I have kids with someone who’s white, do I get to call that kid Vietnamese American? I would hope so. Because like I would hope that I could engrain enough of that part of my identity into them, where they could feel comfortable being called Vietnamese American. But, you know, at a certain point, like where do you lose that sense of Vietnamese-ness, essentially, where you’re just American? But then again, you know, who gets to call themselves American? Like for a long time, I felt like couldn’t necessarily call myself an American American. To be American, you had to be white. You had to have blue eyes. Your parents had to be married and not divorced, like have a steady job. You had to have a pool and a dog. Like that was to me, like then you could call yourself American. Those people were normal in my eyes. Like that was American. That was something to aspire to. And I couldn’t feel comfortable calling myself that. But also, like I don’t—yeah. Like I said, I don’t necessarily feel comfortable calling myself Vietnamese either because, you know, also growing up I wasn’t ever quite Vietnamese enough for like my parents or my uncles and aunts or the rest of the Vietnamese community in Sioux City. Because I didn’t know the language, I couldn’t read, I couldn’t write, I couldn’t sing the songs that they sang in karaoke, you know. I didn’t watch Paris by Night. And I didn’t do all these things like where—I also look different, you know. Like they didn’t necessarily consider me Vietnamese. They were like “Oh yeah. That guy’s American.” So, it’s weird. That’s all to say, though, I very much consider myself Vietnamese American. At this point, like I—I’ll tell you this. You get to a point where the identity—you realize like in order to figure out your identity, you know, it’s not something you’re born into. It’s something that you choose, and you take. Like I’m Vietnamese American, because I’m actively trying to be Vietnamese. Like I feel my Vietnamese in my bones. And it’s something that like I’m doing. It’s an action. I claim that identity, you know. You can’t let society look at you and put you into these boxes. You have to take it for yourself. And to me, I claim Vietnamese American. That is my identity and when you realize that it’s something that you want, it’s something that you want to claim, then it’s yours. Otherwise, you know, they’re just words. (chuckles) They’re just meaningless labels, you know. But I feel Vietnamese American because I live it, you know. I want it. I aspire to it. It’s something that I try to—I think about constantly, that I’m made aware of constantly. If I—And that’s how I know that it is mine to take. Yeah. 01:01:37.000 --> 01:01:39.000 That’s a great answer. Thank you. 01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:49.000 Yeah. No. Of course. I mean it’s a—I don’t know. Like I’m sure you’ve thought about it like plenty of—like do I—can I call myself this? Like especially since I don’t know the language and— 01:01:49.000 --> 01:01:55.000 I mean that’s like probably my most important question, honestly. Because that’s what I ask myself all the time. So, I want to hear what my peers think too, so— 01:01:55.000 --> 01:01:56.000 Yeah. What everyone else thinks. 01:01:56.000 --> 01:01:58.000 Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. 01:01:58.000 --> 01:02:00.000 I’d love to hear your answer to that. 01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:01.000 Sure. We can talk about that later. (chuckles) 01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:03.000 Yeah, yeah. We can talk about that later, yeah. (takes a sip from his water bottle) 01:02:03.000 --> 01:02:11.000 Um, how do—This is also maybe going to be a tough question. 01:02:11.000 --> 01:02:12.000 No. Please. 01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:19.000 How do people outside the Vietnamese American community see you? 01:02:19.000 --> 01:02:22.000 So, like— 01:02:22.000 --> 01:02:26.000 So, like other American people. Whether they’re white or Latino — x—whatever else. Yeah. 01:02:26.000 --> 01:08:14.000 Oh sure. It’s funny because like you only know so much of a person by just looking at them. And like people look at me, they don’t clock as Vietnamese right off the bat. You know, they don’t say “That guy’s Vietnamese American or that guy is a mix.” Like depending on who I’m talking to, it’s all very contextual. If I’m in a place like the Little Village or Pilsen, somewhere where it’s very Hispanic heavy, inevitably something that will happen to me is that somebody will come up to me and say something to me in Spanish because they think I’m Hispanic as well. (chuckles) Like that happens constantly and I’m always getting like directions asked of me like and stuff like that. Like “Oh, I’m sorry.” Like “Lo siento. No hablo Español.” And—But also, you know, white people will come up to me and, you know, I’ve talked about this a lot but like one of the main things that I feel like myself, you, any other Asian American person, especially mixed race people though, there’s a question we get asked all the time which is like “What are you?” Essentially, like what are you? Like what are you? And I get that kind of stuff even today, you know. And you see it form in their eyes. They’re not going to ask you it right away. Like they’ll be like “Hi,” you know, “My name is X-Y-Z. Like what’s your name?” Etc., etc. And then, eventually, it’s like “So, what are you? Like what are you? What’s your racial makeup, you know? Where are your parents from?” That kind of thing. And it’s weird being mixed race. It just makes everything a little bit more ambiguous for people. People don’t know what you are right off the bat. (laughs) It’s funny, the assumptions that people will make of you. Like people assume that like, you know, I’m Viet—Filipino, or like Hawaiian or something else. It's weird. And it’s something that like I don’t necessarily notice anymore. But there was a point where, you know, I’ll walk into a room, and I’ll be like “I’m the only like person of color here.” Like I—And I look way different than everyone else. Or, you know, and like it just feels—And I know everyone like immediately they look at me and they’re wondering. Like that’s the first question like “Oh. What’s that guy?” Like “What is he?” As if I wasn’t human, as if I was this alien species. And, you know, especially growing up in a place in the Midwest, like Sioux City, Iowa where it’s mostly white people. Like going to—you know, we went to church every Sunday and I was always very aware that we were the only Vietnamese family in our particular parish. Like all the Vietnamese people went to Vietnamese mass. We would always go to like the American mass (chuckles) because like me and my brother spoke English, so we wanted to listen to mass in English. And just knowing that people were always sort of like eyes on us, wondering like “What’s their story? Like what’s going on there?” And knowing right off the bat that we were different. I think that does something to you, when you grow up, you know. Being so made aware just of how different you are, you know. It’s always like in your face like right there (holds up his right hand near the right side of his face) wherever you go. And it honestly like resulted in a lot of like self-hatred. But it wasn’t necessarily I realized was self-hatred until like years later. Where I would do this thing where I would always preempt people’s jokes and people’s ideas of me like right off the bat and make fun of myself. Because, you know, like I would be the first one to make a crack about how Asians are bad at driving. Or like how I was bad at driving. Or how I was good at math. I was horrible at math. But I would still joke about it, you know. I would preempt it and, you know, that was a way that I realize like I could defend against the possibility that they would try to other-ize me. If I could beat them to it first, then they couldn’t hurt me with it. If I could hurt myself first (chuckles) like they couldn’t harm me with it. It’s weird, you know, like you can’t shoot me. I already shot myself. It’s a crazy way to think but it was a coping mechanism for me. And I didn’t realize it was like self-hatred until like years and years later. And reflecting back I was like “Wow!” Like I remember I watched a video of myself like just essentially like making a bunch of Asian jokes. And I was like in high school at the time. And I was watching this video and I remember just cringing and just being like “Why did I say all that?” And, you know, looking back now like the reason I did all that was because I was so made aware of it. Growing up I was so made aware of how different I was. And so, taking ownership of hatred, taking ownership of other-izing myself and like making fun of myself and, you know, making all these Asian jokes. Like I could say like “Oh, it’s okay if they do it. I do it. Like, it’s–it’s fine.” And really it wasn’t. Like I was just harming myself in a different way. Like I was just letting these things and these ideas harm me in a different way. It’s funny because like at a certain point like people weren’t thinking that anymore, you know. People weren’t like actively other-izing me, but in my mind they were. Because that’s what I had grown up accustomed to. And it’s weird. I should hope that, you know, we’ve come to a place in society where we wouldn’t necessarily do that to someone. But I can’t say that we have. (chuckles) Like if I ever have a kid, God willing, like they—I would hope that they grow up in a world that where they didn’t feel the need to do that. Because it sucks. (chuckles) It totally sucks. It sucks. It’s embarrassing. It’s embarrassing to look back on. Like I wish I didn’t do that. It’s nuts. I should have been way more proud of who I was and confident in who I was. But I wasn’t. Yeah. 01:08:14.000 --> 01:08:16.000 It was your learning process, growth. 01:08:16.000 --> 01:08:22.000 Mm-hmm. Exactly. 01:08:22.000 --> 01:08:33.000 So, you said that you’re actively leaning into your identity as a Vietnamese person —Vietnamese American person. So, do you have a strong community of peers then? 01:08:33.000 --> 01:12:03.000 No. And that’s embarrassing for me. (laughs) I wish—I was thinking about this. It’s so funny you mention that. Because I was thinking about this. Like I walk my dog a lot because it’s an easy way for me to like take a break from work. And I thought about like how I just don’t have a lot of Vietnamese friends. I have friends who are like people of color, of course. Like my best friend is a Hispanic guy, like but no real like Vietnamese friend that I interface with consistently. Other than Randy (Kim). Like Randy’s great. Like we’ll go out and grab a meal. But like someone I see every weekend or like every week to grab drinks with, just to talk and chew the shit, I don’t have that. And it’s something that like I think I kind of actively avoided for a while. Even in college like I was involved in like things like the Vietnamese Student Association. And I helped form a Asian American fraternity on campus, or a chapter I should say, Pi Alpha Phi. And that was cool because it allowed me to interact with all these other Vietnamese American kids, all these other Asian American kids, second generation. Like we all knew the score. And whenever I did hang out with them, it felt very comforting knowing that like these guys know what it was like growing up the way we did. No one else does. Like we know though. That was cool! But I would also find myself sort of like rejecting it occasionally, being, like opting to be less involved with them than I probably could have, opting not to form as close friendships as I could have. Because I think in my mind I was like “That’s boring. That’s something I already grew up with. Like I already know what it’s like to be Vietnamese. Like I want the exotic thing. I want white friends (chuckles) and like Hispanic friends and Black friends. Like I want these other things.” And, you know, places like the University of Iowa, very easy to make white friends. Like if you want to make white friends, go to college. Go to a public university in America. So, a lot of my friends, my core friend groups, you know, they ended up being mostly white kids. Even today like it’s mostly the kids I hang out with most, other than Miguel and Randy, is probably they’re just white people. My partner is a white person. And it’s something that like looking back now, you know, I regret deeply. I—Because whenever I hang out with someone like Randy, whenever I am lucky enough to be in a place where it’s a lot of other Asian people, it’s great! Like it’s just like “Oh, I’m back home, baby!” Like we know what—And it’s not even like we’re talking about Vietnamese things constantly. We’re not! We’re hanging out. We’re just eating dinner, having drinks. But you feel more comfortable because you know what—that they’ve been through sort of the same thing that you did. Like they know what it’s like to have dinners that your white friends might not have eaten. They know what it’s like to maybe have grown up in an abusive household, to speak Vietnamese as your first language, you know. They know the preciousness of karaoke at a party. They know what it’s like to nhậu (nhau, to drink and socialize) with your dad’s friends. It’s great, you know. And it’s something that like I really, really crave now and something that like I am—I want to actively work towards, making more Vietnamese friends, you know. I don’t know how. 01:12:03.000 --> 01:12:05.000 That was going to be my next question. How would you do that? (laughs) 01:12:05.000 --> 01:13:28.000 Yeah, shhh. I don’t know how. Like form a club, I guess, and just walk around Argyle. Ask people like “Hey. You want to hang out?” (both laugh) But, you know, it’s hard enough like making friends in your thirties, period. Regardless of whether or not they’re Vietnamese. But, you know, I really think what it is like is like I already know plenty of Vietnamese people. I think the idea now is just to reach out to them and just to talk to them and be like “Hey, you want to grab drinks? You want to grab coffee?” Like “hey, I’m going to be in your city. Like you want to hang out?” I think that’s really the only way I can do it now. (chuckles) I’ve thought about like one thing I’ve thought about because I really want to get better at speaking Vietnamese, especially as my parents get older. I’m like I realize like so much of our communication is just horribly limited because of my level of Vietnamese understanding. And so, I want to get better at Vietnamese, especially if I plan on going back to Vietnam. And I was thinking “Oh, maybe I should just like make like a meet—” Because the ability to speak any language, you know, relies on the fact that you need to speak it consistently and be immersed in it. And I was like “There’s nothing quite like that here in Chicago.” And I was like “I should do that, though. Like I should like make a Meetup group where like if there’s any other people who just essentially just want to speak Vietnamese at each other, bad Vietnamese at each other, or good Vietnamese at each other, like we can do that together.” So, that was one idea that I had, where it’s like “Oh, I should make up like a little Vietnamese club.” (chuckles) I think that would be fun! 01:13:28.000 --> 01:13:30.000 I should introduce you to my brother. 01:13:30.000 --> 01:13:31.000 Oh yeah? I’d love that. 01:13:31.000 --> 01:13:38.000 (laughs) He speaks Vietnamese, not super well. But he really tries. 01:13:38.000 --> 01:13:39.000 Good for him! 01:13:39.000 --> 01:13:40.000 And when he doesn’t know a word, he’ll ask. So— 01:13:40.000 --> 01:13:43.000 Good for him. Hey, I’m the exact same way. 01:13:43.000 --> 01:13:45.000 Yeah, that’s great! That’s great. So, you are trying, then. 01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:49.000 Yeah, I’m trying. Yeah. 01:13:49.000 --> 01:13:58.000 So, okay, this is maybe my last question on identity. But (sighs) how does your family see you, that you’re aware. 01:13:58.000 --> 01:15:22.000 That’s a good question. I can tell you this. My family is very, very proud of me. And that’s not even like, oh, like me bragging. Like I know they’re actively like very, very proud of me and the work that I do. Sometimes, it seems like it’s not enough. But they’ve made me very aware of that fact. And I’m eternally grateful for it. They like that I’m writing. They like that I’m doing something with my English degree. They like that I’m also actively trying to tell our story, the story of my family. Like, I’m here, right now. I’m doing my best to do that. And, you know, like the reason I know that my family’s proud of me now is mainly because of what I did to try to find my grandfather. That, I think, that really did it for them. I suppose I should tell the story of that. But yeah. Going back to the story of my mom. She grew up mixed-race. Didn’t know who her grandfather was. I would always ask my mom if she remembered anything about him. And I had said that like, you know, he left and that she grew up without him. But she was actually able to meet him once. Like he was able to come back one time and meet her and gave her gifts and everything. But she remembers so little about that. 01:15:22.000 --> 01:15:24.000 How old was she? 01:15:24.000 --> 01:17:24.000 She was very young, I think three, maybe four. Like super young. But she remembers a tall man. Like that’s all she remembers, an American uniform. And he even gave her his dog tags, just for her to hold onto because there’s a daughter he has in Vietnam, this country where he was fighting. So, he should leave her something. So, he left her that. But, you know, after Saigon fell, after the North Vietnamese Army won and took over, a lot of rumors started flying around the villages in rural Vietnam, in the cities as well, that these Việt Cộng (Viet Cong, North Vietnamese military) they were rapists. They were going to come over. They were going to eat all the babies or kill all the babies. They were going to murder anyone who had anything to do with the American soldiers. They were going to do horrible stuff, essentially. Like they made them seem like this was the end. So, you know, one of the things that like my grandma had to do for my mom was like she took any memento that she had from my grandfather and just like burned it, burned it all. And the dog tags that like her father gave her they threw into the river where she used to swim naked with her friends. And it’d just be lost forever. And they also shaved my mom’s head. Because she had really curly hair when she was young. They shaved it completely, and just to try and hide any, any amount of fact, anything that might indicate that she was a child of an American soldier. Obviously, rumors were just rumors. Like they weren’t nearly that vicious. They were bad, obviously. Like people were taken to reeducation camps. And they established new economic zones where they forced people from the city to try to grow food where food couldn’t be grown. And incidentally that’s where my grandfather died. He was my dad’s dad. That’s where he died. Because they forced them out of his like apartment in Saigon and made him just like work a dirt farm until like he just got sick and died. 01:17:24.000 --> 01:17:25.000 Oh my God. 01:17:25.000 --> 01:24:35.000 Yeah. That’s really tough. It’s super, super tough. But that’s all to say they weren’t going around like killing babies or anything like that, as far as I know. They certainly didn’t kill my mom. Because she’s still here, obviously. And yeah. So, you know, growing up like my mom had no connection to her father. I would always ask her as much as I can. I would ask my grandma, as well. Ba ngoai would always tell me that she would be very vague with the details. She wouldn’t tell me his race, his name or anything like that. She was like “He was a tall guy. He had a beard. He was very handsome.” And I was like “That’s great! I would like to know more, though.” She would never let me know more. And it wasn’t until, ooof, gosh, 2015 or 2016. I had just moved to the city. I was in a job that I didn’t quite like, and I just needed a distraction from it. And I had watched a TV show called Finding Your Roots with Henry Louis Gates, Jr., a Harvard anthropologist who is like also a permanent fixture on my vision board. And the show is all about him like helping people connect with their identities and their ancestry through genealogy. And they would use tests from like 23AndMe, and Ancestry DNA, to accomplish these goals. And I was like, “Oh. That’s—I can do that now.” It’s weird, you know, growing up, that sort of technology wasn’t quite there yet, sophisticated enough for us to do that. But now it was. Like I was finally at a point where like “Oh, this is like feasible. I can find my grandfather.” It was always a thing we talked about, like we would love to find grandfather. And, you know, growing up, as I grew up, I know my mom really struggled with the fact that she didn’t know who her father was. And it was something that my brother and I had talked about wanting to do all the time. Like we should find this guy. We should find this guy for Mom. Because Mom, like it sucks for her that she doesn’t have a dad. You know, it’s something that she reminded us all the time. Like if we’re ever mad at bo for any reason, like if we were ever made at my dad for any reason, she was like “At least you have a father. Like at least you have a man who like is there for you, providing for you. Like it’s something that I didn’t have.” And I was like “Yeah. She’s right.” And that’s all to say that technology had caught up. For 200 bucks, I could send, I could get a DNA testing kit sent to my apartment, my crappy studio apartment that I was living in at the time. Spit into a vial. Send it back. And a few weeks later, I would have results about what I was. So, that’s exactly what I did, you know. I was able to get this DNA testing kit. Sent the results. And I remember the day I got the results. I was in a meeting at work and just—I got the ping on my phone, and I remember reading the emails like “Your results are in from 23andMe.” And I remember just being like eyes wide and just, just immediately just like “I need to get back at my desk as soon as possible, so I can pull up these, the questions to—the answers to a question that had plagued me my entire life.” Literally my whole life until that point. I didn’t know what I was. I knew I was Vietnamese. I knew my grandfather was an American soldier. But what else is, what else am I? Like there’s got to be more. And it was important to me because, you know, so much of who you are in this country is based off of your racial makeup. Being able to say like, “Oh. I’m 25% Irish and 75% German.” Or like “My grandparents came over here from the Ukraine. And that’s make me Ukrainian and a little bit Russian.” That was cool! Like hearing all my friends talk about like where they came and where their family came from and everything, I was always so jealous of that. Something that just simply was not afforded to me as a mixed-race person. Other Vietnamese people, they knew they were Vietnamese. That’s huge for them. Like they know that they came from Vietnam, maybe China. Like, you know, like they knew where they came from. I didn’t. So, to say that I was like really anticipating this thing would be like the understatement of the century. Finally, though, the meeting ended. I went back to my desk, pulled up the email as quickly as possible. I clicked on the link and it just laid it out for me. And I remember it was like almost anticlimactic, like just seeing like the results just laid out in plain English, this like, just these graphs saying that I was mostly Vietnamese, of course, like 70% Vietnamese. And then there’s something like 12% African American and like 10% European. (makes a gesture like his mind was blown with his hands) Like never in a million years would I have thought that like “Oh. Oh! Like he was Black, this guy. He was Black and a little bit European, like so many Black people are.” He was Black. I had an African American grandfather. That’s who he was. And not only that, but like the DNA testing site 23andMe also connected me with cousins. I had cousins. Like people who I had never met before. We share blood. Somewhere down the line, we have a grandparent, like, that we share together. It’s crazy. And it was a lot of Black people. It was a lot of these African American people who could trace their lineages back to slave ships. As such, I could do that too. All of a sudden, like which is inconceivable to me. And now this is a part of my identity, you know. Like this is something I have to carry with me, now. And like now I have to give to my brother and my mom. And this is something they have to carry with them. The fact that we come from slaves, like that’s nuts! We are the product of just, we are the product of disenfranchisement, you know? Of hundreds of years, centuries worth of just trauma and pain. On top of the trauma and pain that we already had as Vietnamese people. So, it was nuts for me, to say the least. And I realized that like this is something I needed to dig into more, because it didn’t tell me who my grandfather was right off the bat. So, I realized that, you know, I had to really undertake this journey in order to try to find him. From that, you know, it was 2015 at the time. So, I started a blog, a website, Saigon to Sioux City, (https://saigontosiouxcity.com/) where I essentially just tried to find my grandfather. And I just used that blog as a way to keep everything updated. People started following it. It hit a chord with people. And like that was, that meant a lot to me. Especially at that time. Because I was doing something I truly did not love. I was like the associate editor for some Pay-to-Play industry magazines. It was so lame. It was just like soul sucking. A job I eventually got fired from. And I remember after I got fired, I was like, “I’m just going to, just devote myself more to writing the stuff I want to write.” Which incidentally also had to do with like identity and my family on this blog. But, you know, going through this journey, I told my mom about what I was doing and she was like, “Why are you doing that?” And I was like “Because I want to find grandfather.” She was like “You think you can even do this?” I was like “Yeah. I can.” She was like “It’s okay if you can’t. Like it’s the past.” And I was like “No. Like I got to do this. I’m doing this for us.” And— 01:24:35.000 --> 01:24:36.000 Can I, can I interrupt? 01:24:36.000 --> 01:24:37.000 Yeah. Of course! 01:24:37.000 --> 01:24:43.000 Do you really—Do you think there was more to what she was thinking and feeling about this journey for you? 01:24:43.000 --> 01:29:54.000 Oooh. Yeah. No. That’s a very great question. Because, yes, there was a lot more. Because, you know, it’s something that my mom was very aware of as a AmerAsian. She had heard stories before of like AmerAsian kids reconnecting or finding their fathers. And having their fathers just completely reject them, which is a nightmare. Which would be the worst case scenario. Worse than death. Like having this image of a man like your entire life, and not even just this man, but this relationship with him that can’t exist, that you won’t so badly but cannot—it just doesn’t exist. And to finally meet this person that you’ve built up in your mind, and to have them completely reject you? It’s horrible. Like it’s having your heart ripped out. Like it sucks. And I think for my mom, as much as she wanted to find her dad and meet this man who she had built up in her own mind for her entire life, there was also a part of her who didn’t want to risk it. Who wanted to play it safe. If he doesn’t know, she can’t be hurt. She doesn’t know who this guy is, you know. He can’t reject her, which is totally fair. But, you know, and I understood that as much for her. But I also understood like she wanted this. But also, you know, in a way, more importantly, I wanted it. It was my identity too. It’s not just her. (laughs) I wanted to know. I had to know. And so, I just kept doing it. I just like threw myself to it. I got a lot of help, too. My partner’s mother, her name is Elizabeth Hazelton, she was really big into genealogy and ancestry. And she really helped me through, like, pretty much the entire process. She helped me build my family trees. And helped me give advice to reach out to different cousins and what not. But we just kept on running into walls. Like we just couldn’t find exactly who this guy was. And, you know, it’s tough when you’re just trying to find one person. Because, you know, it’s a needle in a haystack, you know. The way you—the way this happens is like you identify like one person you know you’re related to. Like I know that this man is my great-great-great grandfather. Like you need to find another person who’s related to him. You need to find another person who’s built a family tree who’s related to him. And that person might be related to—directly related to my grandfather. But they’re likely not. So, you have to find another person who we share that same grandparent with. And just essentially, it’s a process of like triangulation. You’re trying to pinpoint like this one dude. It’s like finding a needle in a stack of needles. It’s just—It seemed impossible. And one thing I realized, though, over the course of that whole journey was the importance of patience. Like you just have to be very patient on everything. Like it can be very frustrating. You’re going to want to quit. But you just have to just wait. And patience eventually paid off. Like I finally—I took a different DNA test from different DNA testing company because that’s what they say. They say if you want to increase your chances, you know, you have to check out all the databases. And that meant checking out DNA tests from 23andMe, and Ancestry DNA, and Family Tree DNA, which is the one where I eventually found the man who led to who my grandfather was. And I remember I took this test. and I got the results back and they were like “You’re related to this man by a lot. By so much that he’s likely your uncle, or something close to your uncle.” I was like “Holy crap! This is crazy!” And I saw that he had just taken a test, too. So, he was also like doing—on his own journey. And it was like very coincidental. And his name is Keith Brown, or Clifton Brown. Clifton, that’s who it is. Clifton Brown. And he’s a guy who lives in Colorado Springs, Colorado. And I reached out to him, and I emailed him essentially everything that I’ve told you. Like “Hey, my name’s Tony. I’m looking for a man who might be my grandfather, who served in the Vietnam war. Do you know who this—Do you know anyone of this description?” It’s like “Ah yeah. It’s my brother.” I was like “Holy crap.” He emailed me back and it’s like “Yeah, it’s my brother. And I’m your uncle.” And I’m like “Holy crap! That’s nuts!” He was like this heavy set, like African American guy. And he had this huge smile on his face, in the picture that he provided for the profile picture. And I remember just staring at Clifton’s picture. And I’m like “I’m related. This is my uncle right here. This is—That’s crazy—That’s my mom’s—Well, like this is my mom’s uncle. This is my great uncle.” And I’m like “This is crazy! This is—It’s finally happening.” He’s like “Yeah. It’s my brother Keith. And Keith is dead. Keith died in 2013.” And I was like “Fuck.” Right? 01:29:54.000 --> 01:29:55.000 Yeah. 01:29:55.000 --> 01:38:12.000 And it’s funny when I think about it. Like I wasn’t sad. I wasn’t sad to find out that this man was dead. I was angry. (laughs) I was pissed. I was angry at the fact that—for a lot of reasons. But I was angry at the fact that I didn’t do this journey earlier. He died in 2013. DNA tests were available back then. I could have tried. I was also angry at the fact that he died. I felt like he did that to me. I was like “How dare you. Like after all we went through, now you’re just gone. What the hell!” That I couldn’t give my mom the moment where she met her father. Something that I had inadvertently built up in my own head which is I think the moment where I came to realize and empathize with my mom about why we don’t necessarily want these things. And yeah. Died in 2013. Did a little bit of digging after he died of heart disease, and buried in a plot somewhere in Leggett, Texas outside of Houston. And he was dead! And now I had this bombshell though. I had this information that my mom wanted for a long time. But it didn’t even—Like I didn’t even think about this idea that he might have been dead. So, not only do I have to break the news to her that I found her father, but he was dead. I had to tell her that her father was gone. I, you know—And this kind of goes back to like the whole thing with my dad and his sister. But like he doesn’t know what happened to his sister. She could be alive. And in that small way, it’s kind of a mercy for him. She’s probably dead. But like there’s the chance, the off chance, that Cô Nhung (Co Nhung, aunt Nhung) and her kid, her husband are still alive. They’re living a good life. And that’s good for him. That helps my father get by. But now I know that I can’t give that to my mom. I can’t give her even that glimmer of hope anymore. Like I have to take that away from her. That’s like—I knew I had to tell her, of course. Because you can’t just hide something like this, you know. I feel like Vietnamese families we keep too much secrets from each other sometimes. As open as we can be, forthcoming with each other, like there’s also a lot of secrets. And I wasn’t going to keep this one from my mom. So, I knew I had to tell her. This happened. I even remember it happened October, or maybe it was November, 2017. And I didn’t know how I was going to tell her. I knew I probably should have just called her up and told her immediately that I found it out. But I couldn’t bring myself to do it. I was too scared. I was just like—It didn’t feel right, you know. Like I felt like—It’s going to sound dumb, but I felt like I had to make a moment for her. (laughs) Like how do you—You can’t just like have it be like such a banal thing, like after decades of not knowing who this man was. And so, I sat on the information for a long time. It’s funny because I told people. I told Mrs. H., Elizabeth Hazelton. I told my partner, obviously. I told my friends that this had happened. But I didn’t tell my mom. And eventually it got to January. And my parents were going to come visit to celebrate my birthday and also my mom’s birthday. So, we were just going to have a twin birthday. And I was like “You know what? This seems like the time. Like this just seems like the most epic birthday gift. It’s going to be better than any Hermes bag that I could buy her, you know? And the lotion set from Bath and Body Works that I can get her, a candle. I’m going to give her her dad. It’s gonna work because it's her birthday. When she was born, brought into this world from this man she never knew. And it’s also my birthday, and she brought me into this world with a piece of my identity that I didn’t know. Like this is poetry. This makes sense.” So, I remember they came over. They came to visit, and I had printed off a picture of him. And I put it in a nice little frame. I was able to find a picture of my grandfather, Keith Brown, from his obituary website. And I remember looking at that picture and just thinking, “I’m really related to this man. But I don’t see it.” He didn’t quite look like me, but like I was like “This guy could have been my grandfather. He could have been a dude that I saw on the weekends, like all my friends saw with their grandfather. Like what could that have been like? You know?” I think, that just added to the anger some more. It’s like “You took this from me.” (laughs) Like “You jerk! You took that sense of normalcy from me.” But I framed it up. I wrapped it for my mom. In my head, like they were just coming to visit for the weekend. In my head, it was like “I should just give it to her right off the bat. Like I can’t sit on this all weekend. It’s going to kill me.” But I couldn’t do it. I remember she came. My girlfriend was like “Are you going to do it?” And I’m like “No. Not yet. Like it’s not the right time.” Finally, like the whole weekend went by. It was fun, like it was—They came by, you know. We went out to restaurants. We ate and everything. And then finally it was like the last night. We were going to do cake and ice cream, like blow out the candles for our joint birthday cake. And it was going to be a fun time in our apartment. And we would exchange gifts. I was like “That’s going to be now or never.” Because they were like leaving the next morning. I remember my mom blew out her candles and everything. We sang Happy Birthday. It was fun. And we were giving out gifts and I was like “Hey. I have kind of a big gift for you.” And she was like “Oh! This is exciting. I hope it’s a new car.” I was like “Not quite.” And I handed her this small package. And she was like “I thought you said it was big!” I was like “Well, go ahead and open it.” She opened it, saw it was a frame. And she looked at it. It was just a picture of a Black guy. She doesn’t know him from Adam. Like she doesn’t know who this guy is. She was like “Who is this?” She thought it was a joke. And I was like “That’s him.” I was like—She was like “Who?” And I was like “That’s him. That’s your father. That’s ông nội (ong noi, paternal grandfather). That’s my grandfather.” And I remember like she was like “What??? No.” And I was like “Yes. Look.” She like looked down at the picture. And I wasn’t sure how she was going to react. And right off the bat, it was like this moment where I felt it was suspended in time. It was like everything just paused around me. And I was just waiting for her to like, to say anything. And finally, she just—tears. She started crying. Just heaving. Just crying like she could not believe it. And I started crying. My girlfriend started crying. My father, he was just like when he gets nervous, he just smiles. (makes a funny smiling face and Ho laughs) He was like “Holy crap!” It was crazy. Pulled out his phone and started filming everything. He was like “What?” And, but, and she looked at me like just through tears. And she was like—First thing she asked: “Is he alive?” And I was like “No. No. Sorry.” Man, I cried even more. “He died in 2013.” But there he was. I guess, you know, I explained to her how I found him. Who he was. How she had an uncle that we can meet. And it was great. And like it was a very cathartic moment. Like we sat there for nearly like—We sat there for hours, just talking through things. And it was very nice. And being able to just talk through, you know— She talked to me about like how bad it was not having a dad growing up. How she was bullied. All the stuff she used to tell me. We were just going over it again. And talking about like my own struggles with my identity and everything that I went through. 01:38:12.000 --> 01:42:16.000 And yeah. From that, I was able to finally make like the big announcement about it and let everyone know on social media. I remember I got calls as if I had like won a prize or something. Like people were calling me. Like old friends, old bosses that I hadn’t talked to in years, teachers. They would send me messages and they were like “Congratulations!” Like because they had seen—They were following my work and they had seen how hard I had worked for this and how much it meant to me. And yeah. Eventually I was able to use that story. I pitched the story to, I think it was Huffington Post and they published an essay about it. And weirdly enough, it kind of like really helped like my career and what I do now, which is as a professional writer and editor. And yeah. And from there, like I remember after that whole thing happened, after I got published like it was a big thing for my father. He was so proud of me. He called me. He didn’t say necessarily he was proud of me. But my mom told me later. So, you know, this is how I know. I was like “That’s so sweet!” She was like “Dong. Like your dad wants to know, wants you to send a link to that, to what you wrote.” I was like “Why?” and she was like “Oh, he’s going to translate it. He’s going to translate the whole thing so he can share it with his friends.” And I was like “Holy shit. Like that is so sweet.” Like my father would never tell me—He never told me he loved me, growing up. You know, he’d never said that to me or my brother. And I was like “Oh. That’s so—That is so fucking nice. Like that is exactly why I’m going to use that to carry me through the next few years.” And I remember like a few days after my mom left, I remember before we took her to the airport and everything, I was like “Are you going to tell ba ngoai?” Because that was a whole ‘nother thing. Like we had finally found this man that she also was wondering about. And she was like “yeah. I’ll tell her. I’ll take care of it. Don’t worry. I’ll let her know.” And I got a phone call a few days later. I was walking my dog with my partner. We were at the dog beach here in Chicago. And beautiful sunny day. I remember I got a phone call. It was from ba ngoai. I always pick up the phone when ba ngoai calls. She doesn’t call that much. So, when she does, it was like a call. I figured it was because my mom told her. So, I picked up the phone and she immediately, she was like “Dong! I’m so happy. You did it!” Like she’s letting me know like right off the bat, like how happy she was with what I did. How proud she was of me. And it was so funny because like she had seemed to have hinted like “You figured it out, my secret!” (laughs) Like in, you know, not so many words, but like she was like “Oh, you figured it out! Like the thing I was hiding from all of you.” Like it was like a silly, like a fun secret she was doing. And I was like “Yeah. I figured it out, grandma.” And I remember. I’ll never forget that phone call because it meant so much to me. And she was like “We’re so proud of you.” You know. (starts to tear up) To hear her say that, you know, I think, you know, as a Vietnamese person, as a Vietnamese American kid, you grow up not hearing that enough. You know? You don’t hear that from your family, do you? You don’t hear that. You hear “That’s what’s expected. That’s what is expected of you.” You know? You’re supposed to get a job. You’re supposed to do well. You’re supposed to be successful. You don’t hear “I’m proud of you” at all. And if you do, it’s not enough. (wipes tears from his eyes with a napkin). It’s never enough. And to hear my grandma say that, to say like “You did it. You did this thing, like this crazy thing that seemed impossible to us. We are so proud of you.” That’s—To answer your question, that’s how my family views me. (both laugh) They’re proud of me. And that’s all I could ever ask for. Sorry about that (laughs). 01:42:16.000 --> 01:42:19.000 No. Don’t be sorry. Thank you for sharing. 01:42:19.000 --> 01:42:20.000 Yeah. 01:42:20.000 --> 01:42:21.000 Wow, that’s amazing. 01:42:21.000 --> 01:42:24.000 Yeah. 01:42:24.000 --> 01:42:27.000 I don’t even know what “I’m proud of you” sounds like in Vietnamese. (laughs) 01:42:27.000 --> 01:42:38.000 Yeah! I’ve never, I’ve never, yeah. Exactly. It’s—I don’t even know the words. I couldn’t tell you. (laughs) 01:42:38.000 --> 01:42:39.000 Probably Google Translate wouldn’t even know. 01:42:39.000 --> 01:42:42.000 Yeah. Exactly. Like “Sorry. No, no results here.” (both laugh) 01:42:42.000 --> 01:42:44.000 Yeah! 01:42:44.000 --> 01:42:52.000 Oh, gosh. 01:42:52.000 --> 01:43:09.000 So, then, talking about identity, I guess that wasn’t my last question. Because now that you know that you are Black, how has that—how has your—I guess, how has that changed you? If it has. 01:43:09.000 --> 01:46:56.000 Yeah. I mean, that’s a great question. It’s one I’m still kind of asking myself. You know, like it kind of goes back to your question about how I’m trying to take back my Vietnamese-ness or how I’m trying to make more friends who are Vietnamese. This is a space in my identity I fully do not—I can’t—I don’t feel comfortable calling—I can’t say that I’m, I’m Black. I can say I’m related to a Black man. I have—I can trace my ancestry back to specific plantations in Texas. That’s cool. I mean, not cool, cool. But like that is a thing I can do. And I think that’s a very notable and quite frankly awesome thing I can do. I can–I can trace back to Americans born in America. I can trace back to Africans born in Africa. But I can’t say that I’m Black. I can’t say that. Blackness is it’s own thing. It’s its own culture. (sirens in the background) And it’s something that I’ve been trying to learn more about, obviously, because this is my family. Like inevitably like I’m related people who are Black. My uncle, my uncle Clifton, he’s Black. You know, I have aunts who are Black. I’m–I’m not. (chuckles) Like I’m just not at all. I don’t think I ever will be. It’s not a culture I grew up in. These weren’t people I ever like were able to associate with or hang out with. And I think partly through design, you know it’s the true irony, and I think it’s something I tell people all the time. Vietnamese people do not confront their own prejudices enough and their own racism enough. We talk all the time, for good reason, about the struggles that Asian Americans go through in this country to get by, the prejudices and racism that we face. But we, in turn, turn that on every other ethnicity, especially when it comes to Black people and Hispanic people. Horribly racist against them. And it was something, you know, growing up I heard it in my family, and I heard it with other Vietnamese people all the time, like “Watch out for Black people. Don’t hire Hispanic people. Or like da-da-da-da-da.” All these prejudices that you would hear anywhere else, regarding these people. And I’ve heard it from my parents. I’ve heard it from grandmother. And to find out the true irony is that it’s in our blood is hilarious. It’s partly funny but it’s also like partly like it gives me more impetus and drive to have a conversation about it, to like “You know, we got to talk to our elders and we got to confront this in our own community.” Because we’re not perfect. We’re—A lot of us can be horribly racist and horribly bigoted against other people for the same reasons that people are horribly racist and bigoted towards us. And it’s BS. It doesn’t make any sense. And yet, you know here we are. But yeah. My Blackness or my Black—Blackness, you know, my background, my ethnicity, it’s something that I’m still navigating. I’m still confronting. I’d love to learn more about it, you know. Like I’d love to learn more about the history of what my ancestors went through. But can I claim it? No. I don’t think I want to. It’s something that is a part of me, though. And I’ll always recognize that. It’s a part of me. It’s a part of my family. It’s a part of my grandfather. And, you know, that’s something I can be aware of and I accept that. 01:46:56.000 --> 01:47:04.000 Have you had conversations with elders about this kind of racism that we hold? 01:47:04.000 --> 01:49:36.000 Yeah. I—Especially around, yeah, around the time of like George Floyd, when that happened in 2020, like I think it was like the first time I really had a conversation about it with my mom. And just telling her just straight up like “Look at what they’re doing to people out there. Look at what they’re doing to us. That’s like—George Floyd like that could have been grandfather. That could have been someone—That could have been my uncle. That could have been someone you know. Like that’s what they’re doing to us.” And I think she kind of struggled with it. She was just sort of—We had a lot of arguments. It was probably like some of the most tense bit between my mom and I that it’s ever been. Because it’s so plain to me that this is something that they should care about. They should be aware of and passionate about. This idea that as people of color, we’re always going to kind of get the short end of the stick here in this country. That people are already, when we walk into a room, they’re already going to be aware of us and have, you know, ideas about who we are and what we’re trying to do. And to see that my parents don’t understand that. It’s maddening. It’s like how do you not? How do you not? Like you came into this country. I’ve watched you struggle with it. I’ve watched people be racist to you. Like how are you not confronting this right now? I haven’t really talked to my grandma about it. We fairly stay apolitical and that’s fine by me. I don’t think I want to talk necessarily to discern my grandma’s thoughts on these sort of things. Though I really should. I really should talk to her more. But I think these are conversations that are important to have. We need to talk about it more. Especially like, you know, Vietnamese people truly are like, can be very, very conservative. You go to a place like Orange County, like you’ll see it, you know. When you go to a place like Sioux City, you’ll see it. These are—At our core, we can be a very conservative community in everything. You know, from race relations to issues like gay marriage, abortion, extremely conservative. And, you know, the irony is (chuckles) we’re immigrants. Like conservatives hate us. Why do we hate other immigrants for doing the exact same thing that we’re trying to do, that we did? It doesn’t make any sense. It’s completely maddening. That’s all to say, it’s a conversation I think is very important to have and that we all need to confront constantly, like with our own families. 01:49:36.000 --> 01:49:46.000 Yeah. I agree. It is really important to have that conversation and also incredibly difficult. Like you said with your ba ngoai. Like—I can’t imagine having that conversation. 01:49:46.000 --> 01:50:01.000 I can’t talk to my bà ngoại about that! Like it might—then the pain thing is that it might ruin something about her for me. And I don’t want my vision of ba ngoai. Ba ngoai is ba ngoai to me. I don’t want to hear that she actually might actually have horribly racist and problematic thoughts. 01:50:01.000 --> 01:50:02.000 Yeah. Right. 01:50:02.000 --> 01:50:27.000 Yeah. But also, you know, what, yeah, what—Can I even convince her at this day and age? Then again, like we probably should. Like we have to. Like what—Because if we don’t, you know, like then it persists. Like these thoughts, the problems that they have. Yeah, I don’t know. It’s tough, Jenn. (chuckles) 01:50:27.000 --> 01:50:29.000 Yeah. It’s not easy. 01:50:29.000 --> 01:50:32.000 Yeah. 01:50:32.000 --> 01:50:42.000 So, going back to your parents’ journey, migration, I guess. 01:50:42.000 --> 01:50:44.000 Yeah. 01:50:44.000 --> 01:50:51.000 Do you feel like that’s your story in a sense? Or how do you carry that story with you, if at all. 01:50:51.000 --> 01:50:54.000 Yeah. That’s a good question. 01:50:54.000 --> 01:50:58.000 And including any kind of trauma, emotional baggage. 01:50:58.000 --> 01:54:48.000 It’s strange because, you know, as a writer I’m always trying to share the stories of my family in any way that I can. But I always come up to a point where I’m like “should I be sharing this? Like this seems like I want to share it. But like does my mom or dad? Like do my uncles and aunts? Does my brother?” But it’s my story, too. And, I mean, it’s something that I’m sure like you’re aware of, I would assume as a Vietnamese person. But like growing up my mom was always like “Don’t tell people this X-Y-Z fact about our family. Don’t talk about this.” Like, “we can’t let people know about this.” Sometimes it would be incredibly banal. Sometimes it would be important. I couldn’t tell anyone about it. But I—There’s a culture of secrecy in the Vietnamese community that I think persists now to this day. Like it’s a culture of like “Don’t talk about this.” And part of it is strategic, you know. Like for someone like my mom, it was always like people would judge us if they know this thing about our family. And appearances are so important to her and like the Vietnamese community, at least in Sioux City, where it’s just like we couldn’t let people on at all about what was actually going on in our house, you know. But yeah. It's hard. (chuckles) To think about like—To try to move past that as a writer where so much of my work is just sharing my thoughts on things and my experiences in my life. And it’s hard, frankly, like sitting here sharing some of these things, like I have to preempt myself (raises his left hand to his temple, and makes a twisting motion) like “should I share this?” And it’s sort of like “Eh, no.” It’s like “Ignore that. Turn that off for now.” Like—Because I think this work is more important if I am just upfront and just like let people know everything. But that is fighting against everything in me, you know what I mean? Like everything that I was taught growing up about like how much I should share with people, which is nothing (chuckles), how much I should let on about what goes on in my family and my community. It’s tough. It is really tough. And as a writer, as a communicator, as a storyteller, it’s tough to do that. But the work is important. Like I have to tell people. That’s all to say that the things that my parents went through, it’s their story. Of course, it’s their story. But it’s my story too. It’s, indelibly, it’s my story. Like you can’t rip their stories away from me. Like they’re mine, you know. It’s part of the reason I do what I do now as a writer. I love storytelling. I love the idea that I can come—I can claim this, these stories that were handed to me from my parents. They’re mine, now. After my parents die, after my grandmother dies, their stories are mine. And because there’s no one else there’s going to be. And if I don’t tell them, they’re going to die with me. And I can’t let that happen. I cannot let that happen, you know. This is why I think something like this is so, you know, damn important. It’s just like we can’t let these stories die. They need to persist somehow. Because it’s not any one person’s story, it’s our story. We’re Vietnamese. Like this is us! You know? We are Vietnamese people. We are Vietnamese Americans, and this is collectively our own thing. No one else can claim it. This is ours and this is ours for what to do with it. And if we don’t keep on telling the stories, if we don’t let people know what happened to us, then it dies with us. And that’s the real tragedy, right? That’s the ugliest thing that could possibly happen. 01:54:48.000 --> 01:54:49.000 Yeah. I agree. 01:54:49.000 --> 01:55:17.000 Yeah. A tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound. I don’t think so. Like if you don’t tell—If a story happens, and you don’t tell it, it doesn’t exist. And the idea that like someone could die, someone could live a life as full and rich as my parents, my grandma’s, or mine, and they die, and no one is there to remember it. That’s the scariest thing in the world to me. It’s the scariest thing. And we can’t let that happen to our community. No. You know? 01:55:17.000 --> 01:55:20.000 Yeah. 01:55:20.000 --> 01:55:27.000 This is the most important thing I’m doing today. (laughs) It’s the most important I’ll do for the rest of the year, for sure. Yeah. 01:55:27.000 --> 01:55:47.000 Thank you. So, that’s a good segue into talking about your career. I wanted to ask you about your career as a writer and what lead you here. And also, what are the most fulfilling aspects of your career and what would you like to change or see different in the future? 01:55:47.000 --> 01:55:48.000 Yeah! That’s a good— 01:55:48.000 --> 01:55:49.000 It’s a long question. 01:55:49.000 --> 02:01:41.000 Yeah, no, no. It’s a fun question. I mean, like my career as a writer, like I always knew I wanted to be a writer. I remember like my dad telling me and brother bedtime stories. And like I think like that was like the absolute genesis of like my passion to just like tell a good story, you know. Just listening to my father, like me with bated breath. It’s just like “Like what happens next?” you know, I love that. I love telling stories. I love hearing stories. And I remember being young and gosh, I must have been maybe ten, maybe nine. We—My aunt had saw me in the restaurant. I was just like messing around (gestures as if writing with his right hand) like I think just like, you know, when you’re young, you’re just trying to figure out what stories are like as a writer. When you’re a young writer, you don’t necessarily know like “once upon a time, da-da-da-da-da.” You don’t know, you don’t necessarily know how to make a narrative arc yet. So, you’re just sort of like doing what you can. I remember sitting there, just a pen and paper, just trying to write like a story. I think it was like honestly like a Harry Potter knockoff. (laughs) Like just directly a Harry Potter knockoff. Just doing my own little fan fiction before fan fiction was really a thing. And my aunt asked me like “Oh! What are you doing?” And I remember telling her, I was like “Oh! Like I’m writing a story.” She was like “Oh, why are you doing that?” It’s just such a—like “Oh. That’s fine. Like why are you doing that, though?” I was like “Oh, you know, I think I really want to be a writer one day. I think I want to be an author.” And she was like “You don’t want to do that.” (laughs and tilts his head back) It’s just like dang! “Why?” She was like “Oh, there might not be money in it.” And I was just like “No. No. I think I can do it.” I pulled out one of my Harry Potter books. “These books seem to sell pretty well.” And she was like “Okay. If that’s what you really want, you can do it. As long as you’re happy.” (laughs) Even then, being that young and hearing those words, I was like “She doesn’t mean that. Like she knows. She doesn’t actually believe in like my mission, my ultimate goal to be a writer.” And that’s something I heard a lot when I was a kid, from like my parents and like my grandma, always questioning. Like I remember when I chose my English major, they were all like “Why? Why are you doing that?” And we had talked before about how I was also a film major. I double majored, constantly, throughout college. The one constant, though, I knew was English. Like I knew I wanted to be a writer. I knew I wanted to figure it out somehow. So, I kept English. And growing up though, my parents, the Vietnamese community, no one really believed in that goal. Heck, like even in school, like teachers would just sort of tell me sometimes, like “Oh! That’s good but, you know, always have something in your back pocket. Like maybe you should also do pre-med.” (laughs) Right. Pre-med or pre-law. And I was like “That sounds boring. I’m just going to try to do the best I can with the writing thing.” But, you know, I remember I reached high school and I reached a point where it was just like all right, maybe writing is a thing, like it isn’t going to be like the best thing for me. Maybe I should focus on something else. And I remember like I flirted with the idea of like maybe I should start studying a little bit more and I should pursue like pre-veterinary. Because I like animals. So, like that would be fun. Or maybe architecture because I also had a creative mind for design. And it wasn’t until I took a class my senior year of high school. I was in English honors and we had written, it was like an essay, a personal essay. It was like this whole series of personal essays we had to write. And I remember I wrote a story that was essentially the story of—a story about my brother and I growing up in the restaurant. And it was a story about how one day my—This is dark. It’s completely like a tangent. But my parents brought home like this chicken duck because Vietnamese families then they would trade livestock, essentially, with each other. And they would sometimes raise them in like their apartments and their houses. But they brought me a chicken. They brought my brother and I like a chicken duck, just to raise as pets. And we, I remember we had them in like a cardboard box. And we watched as they grew up, chicken duck grew up and everything. And this story was about like me and my brother like raising them. But essentially at the end what happened my parents just slaughtered them. (laughs) Like we ate them for dinner. A totally, total immigrant thing to do. It was like—And obviously my brother and I were very upset. But the essay was about that. I remember it was just kind of like because the personal essay was like “Oh, just write a story about your childhood.” That was what I wrote. I remember as the teacher was handing back everyone their essays with a grade on it, she handed out the essays to everyone, like giving them their essays with feedback and everything. But she didn’t give me back mine. And I remember like she kind of had like a smile on her face. I’ll never forget it. But like she went up to the podium and she took my essay. She put it down and she just started reading for everyone. And I felt—I was like “What’s going on here?” And she read the whole thing. And people loved it. Like at the end, everyone clapped. And I was like “Oh! This is completely unexpected.” Like I did not expect that at all. And I remember afterwards, after class, she asked me to stay behind. And I was like “Hey, thanks for doing that! That was weird. I didn’t expect that.” She was like “No. It was a great story.” And like she looked me in the eye. She was like “Have you ever thought about doing this for a living?” And I remember being in high school, being a senior, fully planning to do something else with my life, completely ignoring like the dreams that I had of being like a professional writer. And at that moment, like listening to her, Mrs. Sitzmann, I’ll never forget her. If I ever publish a book, like she’s going to be the person I dedicate it to. 02:01:41.000 --> 02:01:42.000 Mrs? 02:01:42.000 --> 02:01:44.000 Mrs. Sitzmann. Patricia Sitzmann. Yeah. 02:01:44.000 --> 02:01:46.000 S-I-T— 02:01:46.000 --> 02:01:48.000 Z-M-A-N. 02:01:48.000 --> 02:01:49.000 N. Thank you. 02:01:49.000 --> 02:08:06.000 I think two N’s at the end. But yeah. She said “Have you ever thought about doing this for a living?” I was like “You know, I have but like I—not really serious.” And she was like “You should think about doing it seriously. You have talent. You can do this.” It’s the first time in my life that anyone told me that I could do writing and it was huge for me. That changed the course of my life. That changed everything. From then on, I was like “Okay. I’m going to pursue the English degree. I’m going to try to do creative writing focus. I’m going to go to a school specifically for creative writing, you know. University of Iowa has a great writing program, like the best in the world.” I was going to go there. I was going to do it. And yeah. That’s sort of like how I ended up being a writer. I remember after college it was kind of tough to find work. Eventually, I landed copywriting gigs. Like I remember like the most important thing for me, I realize, was like I can’t do anything else. If I do anything else, I might just do that thing forever. Like if I ended up doing like graphic design, like to try to support my writing career, I knew I would just end up being a graphic designer. I was like if I was going to make it, I was going to have to just find ways to write and make money. And so, yeah. After college, I found copywriting gigs and content writing gigs. Eventually, I found like my first fulltime job paying $30,000 a year in an office in River North here in Chicago, working as an associate editor for these pay-to-play magazines. And it was—I mean, you know, I was super grateful at the time because, you know, first real job, going into an office and everything. I’m not being paid a lot, but like still like I was grateful to have insurance, especially to have something that I could pay my rent and bills with. But it was horrible. It was a really tough job. Because I was not passionate about the stuff we were writing about. I just didn’t care at all. And it reflected in my work, obviously, because they fired me a year later (laughs). And it ended up being—Like I remember I got fired. I just felt like shit for myself, even though I hated that job. I didn’t want to go back. It was still losing a job. It still felt bad to be rejected, right? I remember I called my parents and my dad did something really nice for me. He was like “Oh, you got fired! Congratulations!” He just—He told me he congratulated me. I was like “Why are you congratulating me?” He was like “Oh, you can do something else now.” He was like—Because he knew I didn’t like that job. Like and he knew like—Because, you know, like one thing my parents—you know, as much as they want me to make money and like find a career that I liked and everything, one thing my mom always reminded me growing up and even to this day, she just wants me and my brother to be happy. Which is a huge mercy, I think. Like they don’t necessarily tell you they’re proud of you, but my mom always reminded me. It was only my mom. Like my dad would never say that. She just wanted my brother and I to be happy. She was like “Whatever you do, if you like it, keep doing it.” She was—She knew I didn’t like that job, so she was like, “Good. You don’t have a job anymore? Good. You’ll find something else. It’s not a big deal.” And I’ll never forget that. That really helped me like in a really tough time. But yeah. From there, I just—I tried to find other writing gigs. I eventually landed a very good job paying like considerably more money doing content marketing for a personal finance influencer named Ramit Sethi. He actually has a Netflix show now, I Will Teach You to be Rich. I think the show is called How to be Rich. I worked content marketing for Ramit for two years before I was like “I don’t actually want to be a marketer.” (laughs) Like this is fun. This is a good job. I’m learning a lot. But what I realized during this time, as I had this job, I was able to publish an essay in Huffington Post. And I realized then like this is what I want to do. Like I want to tell my family’s story. I want to be able to tell other people’s stories. What I realized, like I want to be a writer but not—I don’t want to sell anything. I just want to be a writer. I want to be able to tell a good story. And so, I quit that job and I really devoted myself to try to do freelancing fulltime, essentially getting published in places like The Huffington Post. And being able to tell my story. Incidentally, you know, my background with genealogy and ancestry was able to land me a job as a science writer, as a science journalist at a place called Futurism.com. And that’s where I worked about a year before I was able to—actually, I got a phone call from a man who’s now my boss, my managing editor, Neel Patel at The Daily Beast. And he essentially told me like, “Hey. We saw your work. We like your work. And you should apply for this deputy editor job that we have open.” And so, I did. And yeah. That’s pretty much where I ended up now. Like I remember writing out the cover letter and resume for them and essentially telling them the story of finding my grandfather, finding my identity and how this emergent piece of technology and science was able to get me there. And that’s how my interest in sort of like this realm started. And yeah. I was able to get this gig, and now like I’m doing the thing that I’ve always wanted to do like pretty much my entire life every day, which is awesome. Like it’s amazing. I’m interviewing people. I’m talking to them. I’m telling their stories. I’m telling—I’m breaking news about science and technology which is not necessarily a field that I thought I was going to get into when I started all this. But it’s one that I love doing now. But it also affords me the opportunity to write about other things and like to pitch to other places and tell stories, you know? I was able to pitch some stories to Diacritics, the Diasporic Vietnamese—I don’t remember what the “A” is, but an association and network run by Eric Nguyễn (Eric Nguyen) and Việt Thanh Nguyễn (Viet Thanh Nguyen). (Diasporic Vietnamese Artists Network, dvan.org.) And yeah. No, it’s great! It’s all to say that like I’m doing the thing that I wanted to do, like after many years, proving my aunt wrong, which feels nice. (chuckles) 02:08:06.000 --> 02:08:09.000 Have you followed up with her and said “I told you so?” (laughs) 02:08:09.000 --> 02:08:25.000 I have not but I know she’s proud of me too. She’s very happy about like where I landed up. Because like she’s on Facebook and everything. So, sometimes I’ll share articles and I’ll think about it. Like I’ll think like “I hope Cô Thủy (Co Thuy, aunt Thuy) sees this. I hope she sees this right now.” 02:08:25.000 --> 02:08:26.000 That’s awesome. 02:08:26.000 --> 02:08:28.000 Yeah. 02:08:28.000 --> 02:08:31.000 Do you have any projects on the horizon? Like with writing or anything else? 02:08:31.000 --> 02:11:00.000 Yes. I am working on a book. I’m working on a memoir specifically. This time, right around this time last year, I was able to have a man named Christopher Schilling, I think it’s Schilling. I should pronounce his name better. He reached out to me, and he said like “Hey. I stumbled upon your website on Twitter, and I went through your blog, and I got to say I’m a big fan of your work. My name’s Chris. I am a literary agent. And I was wondering if like you’ve been represented. If you’re not, let’s get a conversation going. Let’s talk.” And I was like “Holy shit! That’s awesome.” I remember reading the email out loud to my partner. Like we were both driving to Iowa. And I was like “Yo! You won’t believe what I just saw.” And I just like read it aloud to her and we freaked out for a while. It was awesome, because we’re both writers and this is something we’ve always wanted to do. And, you know, I’ve always wanted to publish a book. I mean, like it’s the reason I became a writer in the first place. And like I knew it was going to take work and it was going to be hard. And so, it was always something I kind of put off. And I knew I wanted to tell the story of finding my grandfather. But I just couldn’t get the gumption to just sort of put everything together and actually do it. So, to have Chris reach out to me in a nice bit of serendipity and say that like “Hey, I saw this blog, this thing that you were working on very hard for years, to find your grandfather. And now it’s going to pay off because I’m going to try to help you get a book deal.” I was like “That’s awesome!” So, now that was a year ago. I’m still working on that book. But I’m getting closer to finishing it. And hopefully within the next month or so, I’ll be able to have that on its way to him. But that’s probably the biggest thing I have on the horizon. It’s tough, Jennifer. It is like, it is so intimidating. It feels like I’m trying to climb a mountain, you know. And I don’t know how to climb a mountain. But I’m trying. Because, you know, it’s a big deal. I have to—It goes back to this idea that like is this my story to tell? You know? Like because I’m not—with this book, with this memoir, I’m not only telling my story. It’s the story of my family. And I have to do it right. That’s a lot of pressure. Like I feel the weight of that every time I sit down and write it. I feel the weight of it now as I recount this to you. But that’s probably the biggest thing I have on the horizon. It’s a big thing. Yeah. 02:11:00.000 --> 02:11:02.000 And are your parents aware of this? 02:11:02.000 --> 02:11:17.000 Yeah. I told them about it. And they were like “Oh, that’s awesome! That’s so cool.” But I don’t think they’ll be really aware of it until, you know, they have the book in their hands, and they can see it, you know? Yeah. I think that will be a big deal for them. 02:11:17.000 --> 02:11:18.000 That’s really cool! 02:11:18.000 --> 02:11:22.000 Yeah! I’m excited about it. Yeah. It should be cool. 02:11:22.000 --> 02:11:25.000 Is there any—Are there any other projects that you want to talk about? 02:11:25.000 --> 02:12:13.000 Let me think about that. Nothing right now. I’m actually trying to do less projects. As I focus in on this memoir, I’m realizing I’m doing way too much, both with my fulltime job which I love doing. I’m not going to do less with that. But like I’m also freelancing. Like I’m still freelancing for like different marketing clients, just trying to make money. And also pitching stories to other publications. Like I realize as much as I love doing that like I don’t have all the time in the world. There’s only so much focus I have and energy in the day and I got to put it where things are important. And that means the memoir, and my work, my fulltime job. And so, I’m trying to do less projects. Yeah. 02:12:13.000 --> 02:12:17.000 How are you doing like with your energy— 02:12:17.000 --> 02:12:18.000 Overall? Or like right now. 02:12:18.000 --> 02:12:19.000 —right now. Like as we’re talking. 02:12:19.000 --> 02:12:21.000 I’m good, yeah. This is fun. 02:12:21.000 --> 02:12:22.000 You’re good? 02:12:22.000 --> 02:12:23.000 Yeah. Are you good? 02:12:23.000 --> 02:12:24.000 I’m good, yeah. HO TRAN: Okay, good. 02:12:24.000 --> 02:12:28.000 Okay. I want to go back to your uncle Clifton, if you don’t mind. 02:12:28.000 --> 02:12:29.000 Yeah, of course. 02:12:29.000 --> 02:12:30.000 Have you met him? 02:12:30.000 --> 02:17:30.000 Yes. We were able to meet him, mmmm, a few years ago. I don’t remember when. I think it might have—It had to be—Let me, let me, let me think about this. Oh gosh. It had to be 2019 or so. As soon as I told my mom, she wanted to meet him. She wanted to meet this man. Like she wanted to meet her uncle. Because, you know, for her this man was like the last connection she has to her father. I wanted to meet him, too. Because we had emailed. He seemed like a very nice guy. Also, a writer. I think he has a book published. He’s a fantasy writer, which is awesome. I love that for him so much. And he—I told him, I was like “Hey. We’re going to be out in Colorado,” because that’s where my brother lived at the time. Still lives there now. “We’re going to be out in Denver. Like do you want to meet up anywhere in Colorado Springs. We’ll make the drive out there and we’ll just meet up with you.” And yeah. He named a restaurant and I remember we all got dressed up for it. Like we’re going to church or meeting the Pope or something. And I remember all of us were so nervous for him. We were just like—my dad probably less so than me and my mom and my brother. My brother, I think he was also nervous for it, but he didn’t let it on. But my mom was like really quiet the whole day and so was I. And we were just like “What’s this guy like? What if he hates us? What if it gets awkward?” That kind of thing. But yeah. We went to this restaurant. We went in and he was there with his wife and his granddaughter. And we got to talking and it was great. It was genuinely very, very cool. Like we were—we ate dinner, eventually, and like the conversation went so well we went grab dinner together afterwards. And it was funny because talking to him I realized that he was also nervous. Like he was like “Yeah.” His wife was like “Clifton’s been nervous all day for this. He, yeah, he’s just a nervous wreck.” And I was like “Yeah, I definitely feel you. We’re there too.” And it’s funny because—And like when they met, I wasn’t sure how they were like going to interact with each other, my mom and Clifton. But it was funny because, you know, they were like they started holding hands and stuff and they would hug each other. And my mom cried. And Clifton cried. And like it was this huge cathartic thing for her and also Clifton. And it was funny, like talking to him, we were trying to learn more about my grandfather. And he let us know that things between him and my grandfather weren’t good. They weren’t good. And the implication seemed to be that my grandfather was kind of an asshole to be completely honest. And he was like “Yeah. We never—We didn’t really talk, like we didn’t really talk. We had the same father but I think Keith”—my grandfather, my ong noi— “I think Keith didn’t like the fact that I had a different mother. And he didn’t want to talk.” I was like “That sucks. I’m sorry about that.” I apologized on behalf of this, my grandfather, this man that I never met. And which, you know, it sucks. Like I wish my grandfather was a nicer guy. But thinking back, I’m like maybe it is for the best that we didn’t have to meet him, you know. This idea that like if he was kind of a mean guy, if he was kind of a jerk, then the idea that he could have possibly rejected my mom or been cruel to my mom, it would have killed me. That would have killed me. And I would have killed him (laughs). I would have been very angry at this man. I would have—That would have been horrible. And so, it was a moment where I was like “Yeah. Maybe it’s best that some things people just never find out. Maybe some secrets are best.” Going back to this idea that Vietnamese people, community love our secrets. But we know who Clifton is now. This very sweet, very generous, very creative man who welcomed this entirely new family in with open arms, you know. Because we didn’t know him until that day, when we finally did. It was amazing! We haven’t met up with him since that day. I’ve been meaning to. But we keep up with each other on social media which is nice. Yeah. I’m glad I could give my mom, at least, that. That I could give her her uncle who didn’t reject her off, right? Not only didn’t reject her, but embraced her, held hands with her, and cried with her. That meant a lot to me. That meant a lot to me to see. 02:17:30.000 --> 02:17:31.000 That’s lovely. 02:17:31.000 --> 02:17:32.000 Yeah. 02:17:32.000 --> 02:17:34.000 Have you met any other family members? 02:17:34.000 --> 02:19:26.000 No. So, my mom has two other sisters out there. She has two sisters out there. And we haven’t been able to connect with them yet. And part of the reason is I was able to connect with one of my mom’s cousins. And who’s—Her mom is my grandfather’s sister. She—And I emailed her back before and was like “So, is there any way you could connect me with your cousins? Like I know it’s kind of like a big thing for them to realize that they have another Vietnamese sister out there. Would that be possible?” And she’s like “Yeah. Let me check with my mom. Yeah. We could probably do that. I would love that.” And she got back to me. Like she emailed me back about a week later. She was just like “Hey. I talked with my mom. She doesn’t think that’s a good idea.” I was like “Oh, yeah. That’s fair.” And it’s a thing, like I’m not upset about necessarily. It would be awesome, of course, to be able to connect my mom to her sisters, her flesh and blood half-sisters. That would be so cool! It would be great to meet my aunts. Like that would be awesome. It would be great to learn more about my grandfather. I would love—That’d probably be the biggest thing for me. Is it worth like them rejecting her, like not wanting anything to do with us and finding that out? I’m not sure if it is. All that to say, I will eventually like one day like get it in me to try to reach out to them like and find out where they live and let them know that their sister is out there. Because, you know, they deserve to know too. This might be something that they want to know, they would want to know. That they’re aware of us. And so, that’s something I’ve got to give to them. It’s something I want to give to my mom. But yeah. One step at a time, you know. 02:19:26.000 --> 02:19:28.000 Does your mom know of their existence? 02:19:28.000 --> 02:19:29.000 Mm-hmm. I told her. 02:19:29.000 --> 02:19:30.000 Oh, okay. 02:19:30.000 --> 02:19:51.000 Yeah. I mean, yeah. Like I’ve told myself there’s nothing I’m going to hide from her regarding this. There’s nothing I should hide from her regarding this. Everything I find out she needs to know about. Because like I said, it’s her story too, you know. It’s her family. It’s her blood. It’d be wrong if I didn’t. 02:19:51.000 --> 02:19:56.000 Yeah. Okay. And so, you learned about these sisters from Uncle Clifton? 02:19:56.000 --> 02:20:04.000 I learned about it from Uncle Clifton. I also knew because my grandmother said that he had another family, right? 02:20:04.000 --> 02:20:06.000 Oh, I see. Right. 02:20:06.000 --> 02:21:16.000 And after I found out who my grandfather was, Keith, I looked into his background. And you can pull up a lot of things about peoples’ backgrounds for like 20 bucks (chuckles) like online. Whole records about where they lived, arrest records, DUIs, stuff like that. You can find out a lot. You can also find out their family. That was how I was able to find out their identities. Like I know their names, not off the top of my head. I’m not that good. But they—And I’ve tried to track them from afar. It makes me feel really creepy sometimes, because these people are still alive. It’s not like going through census records of dead people. Like this is two people who are just actively out there right now. And I know where they used to live and stuff like that. I know where they probably live now, phone numbers, that kind of thing. It’s really weird. But it’s strange because like I have all this information that could connect me with them. I could do it today. I could take some time after this right now, head to a coffee shop, get a cà phê sữa đá (ca phe sua da, Vietnamese iced coffee with milk), sit down and call this woman up. I’m not going to do it though. Because like it’s—I don’t know if I’m ready. 02:21:16.000 --> 02:21:31.000 Yeah. I understand. So, have you been to—I’m switching gears now. Have you been to Vietnam since you went as a little kid? 02:21:31.000 --> 02:21:47.000 No. I want to. It is a thing that I want to do soon. I don’t know if it’s going to happen necessarily this year or next. But I want to do it soon. I want to do it before my grandmother dies for sure. Definitely before my parents die. 02:21:47.000 --> 02:21:48.000 Do you want to go with them? 02:21:48.000 --> 02:21:53.000 I want to go with them. (doorbell rings and he looks to his left). I want to be there with them. I wonder who it is? 02:21:53.000 --> 02:21:58.000 I think it’s Randy (Kim, whose interview was scheduled after Tony’s). It’s Randy! 02:21:58.000 --> 02:22:04.000 Randy! 02:22:04.000 --> 02:22:06.000 (in the background) Oh, hey Randy! 02:22:06.000 --> 02:22:08.000 Hello, hello. Good to see you! 02:22:08.000 --> 02:22:10.000 You too! Oh my gosh. It’s cold out there. 02:22:10.000 --> 02:22:11.000 I know. 02:22:11.000 --> 02:22:12.000 Look what the cat dragged in. 02:22:12.000 --> 02:22:13.000 Hi Tony. (says something unintelligible). 02:22:13.000 --> 02:22:14.000 (gets up from his chair and walks off camera). How you doin’ brother? 02:22:14.000 --> 02:22:17.000 Oh, good. 02:22:17.000 --> 02:22:19.000 Um, Randy, we’re still filming. 02:22:19.000 --> 02:22:20.000 Oh, okay. 02:22:20.000 --> 02:22:25.000 Will you—Tony, do you want privacy while we continue? 02:22:25.000 --> 02:22:29.000 I’m fine. That’s fine. Randy can be here, yeah. He’s heard most of this already. So— 02:22:29.000 --> 02:22:30.000 Oh yeah. I’ve— 02:22:30.000 --> 02:22:33.000 You can sit over here, Randy. Because you don’t want to be in the line of the camera. 02:22:33.000 --> 02:22:40.000 Oh, yeah. Sure. How long have you got left? 02:22:40.000 --> 02:22:41.000 I don’t know. I don’t even know what time it is. 02:22:41.000 --> 02:22:42.000 It’s 1:35. 02:22:42.000 --> 02:22:44.000 Oh, we’ve been going for a while! 02:22:44.000 --> 02:22:45.000 Wow! 02:22:45.000 --> 02:22:48.000 That really flew by! I don’t know if it flew by for you. 02:22:48.000 --> 02:22:51.000 … This is so late. I’m like what have you been doing? 02:22:51.000 --> 02:22:53.000 Yeah. We really like, yeah, got into it. 02:22:53.000 --> 02:22:54.000 Yeah. 02:22:54.000 --> 02:22:55.000 That’s awesome! 02:22:55.000 --> 02:22:58.000 Yeah! Okay. You want to go to Vietnam with your parents and your grandmother. 02:22:58.000 --> 02:24:26.000 Yeah. I would love to go back with my parents and ideally my grandma being there too. Because you know it’s just important to be able to go back to a place that sort of raised them. Like it goes back to what we were saying about how important these stories are to our community and to us. For me, you know, being able to go back and to be able to look at all these places that my parents have told stories about and to me exists entirely ephemerally. Like completely, like I’ve never been there. I’ve never—No. I have been there, but I don’t remember it, you know. I want to see what it looks like now. I want to see what it smells like, and I want to taste the food. I want to taste the air. Like I really want to go back. Like it’s very important to me. But, you know, it’s—You’re also planning a big trip with your family and that’s always stressful! I didn’t—Yeah. I finally broached the topic with my mom recently and I told her I was like “I want to go back to Vietnam. We’re doing this soon. We’re going to do this this year or next.” And she was like “Okay. Okay, good. Let’s do it next year. Let’s do it next year for sure. Like this year is probably a little bit too late. But next year for sure.” Hopefully, like it’s easier to travel and tickets are easier and what not. But yeah. So, hopefully, this time next year, you know, like we’ll have been back and I can finally, you know, see all the places that I’ve heard about in these stories. 02:24:26.000 --> 02:24:27.000 Yeah. 02:24:27.000 --> 02:24:28.000 Yeah. 02:24:28.000 --> 02:24:29.000 That’ll be wonderful! 02:24:29.000 --> 02:24:31.000 Yeah. I’m excited. Have you been? 02:24:31.000 --> 02:24:34.000 No. I’m going in November for the first time. So— 02:24:34.000 --> 02:24:39.000 You’re going to let me—Oh no, we talked about this already. And I think you mentioned it the first call that we had together. 02:24:39.000 --> 02:24:41.000 Did we talk about it? I don’t remember. 02:24:41.000 --> 02:24:44.000 I think we might have. Anyway, I’m very excited for you. 02:24:44.000 --> 02:24:45.000 Yeah. Thank you. 02:24:45.000 --> 02:24:46.000 Please let me know how the trip goes. 02:24:46.000 --> 02:24:48.000 Okay. I want to know about yours too. 02:24:48.000 --> 02:24:50.000 Yeah, no, I’ll keep you updated. 02:24:50.000 --> 02:25:21.000 Yeah. Okay, so that pretty much covers everything I wanted to ask. And I really appreciate you being so like vulnerable and thorough with everything. I know that you have a memoir coming out and there’s going to be—all your stories are going to be in there, I assume. But is there anything else that you want to share about your parents and their background or anything you’ve gone through? Or are there questions I should have asked? Or are there any additional soapboxes or diatribes? (laughs) Or things that you want to share? 02:25:21.000 --> 02:26:47.000 Oh no! Uh, one thing that I’d feel silly if I didn’t mention it is my brother. My brother, Nghi, is his Vietnamese name, N-G-H-I. Nghi Ho. Nghi Tran. But he goes by Richard. He’s about two years younger than me, born 1994, Sioux City, Iowa. And he grew up next to me. He knows all the same things that I know. Probably less willing, he wants less to tell these stories. But I don’t blame him for it. He wants to do his own thing. But I love my brother. It’s just I want to get that on record. He was like my best friend growing up. He’s the closest thing that I have to someone who is pretty, who’s essentially just a clone of me, like went through the exact same things that I went through. Went through the exact same struggles that I went through. And he’s great. He lives in Denver, now. Sadly, for him, he doesn’t like it but he lives really close to my parents who moved there after they sold the restaurant. But yeah. He works in IT. And he’s a great guy. He’s just an awesome kid. And yeah. He’ll always be kind of a kid to me which is silly because he’s obviously in his late 20s now. But, yeah, just love my brother. 02:26:47.000 --> 02:26:51.000 That’s wonderful! I love my brother too. And he’s 37 now. But he’s still my little brother. So— 02:26:51.000 --> 02:26:57.000 Okay, yeah. Still the younger brother. Absolutely. 02:26:57.000 --> 02:27:00.000 Is there anything else that you want to share? 02:27:00.000 --> 02:27:04.000 No. Outside of my brother, that’s pretty much—I think we covered it. I think we covered a lot. (laughs) 02:27:04.000 --> 02:27:07.000 We covered it? Okay. If you’re sure. 02:27:07.000 --> 02:27:12.000 Maybe not everything but I feel like we went over a lot. Is there anything else? 02:27:12.000 --> 02:27:24.000 Anything, any specific childhood memories that really like stick out in your head or any dreams you’ve ever had that you want to share? 02:27:24.000 --> 02:27:34.000 Nah. I think anyone watching this in the future pretty much gets a pretty good idea of who I am. (both laugh) If you want to learn more, read the book. 02:27:34.000 --> 02:27:36.000 All right. Thank you, Tony. 02:27:36.000 --> 00:00:00.000 I appreciate you, Jennifer. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HoTranTony_HoJennifer_2023-04-22.xml HoTranTony_HoJennifer_2023-04-22.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ho Tran, Tony. Interview April 22nd, 2023. Description An account of the resource Tony Ho Tran is a writer in Chicago. In this interview, he talks about his family's immigration story, his childhood as a restaurant kid, and his mother's mixed-race heritage and his search for her father. He also speaks on his search for identity and embracing his Vietnamese heritage as an adult. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-106 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-22 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tony Ho Tran Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jennifer Ho Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Ethnic identity; Vietnam; Amerasians Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Sioux City (Iowa); Vietnam; Chicago (Ill.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Tony Ho Tran Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2c6cd504710fb1dced072f01b75cc905.pdf 4865e6e5c43cf9dd67246ebf360e4f20 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ho Tran, Tony. Interview transcript, April 22, 2023. Description An account of the resource Tony Ho Tran is a Vietnamese American writer in Chicago. In this interview, he talks about his family's immigration story, his childhood as a restaurant kid, and his mother's mixed-race heritage and his search for her father. He also speaks on his search for identity and embracing his Vietnamese heritage as an adult. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tony Ho Tran Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melissa Martin Jennifer Ho Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-22 Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Ethnic identity; Vietnam; Amerasians Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Sioux City (Iowa); Vietnam; Chicago (Ill.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Tony Ho Tran Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HoTranTony_HoJennifer_2023-04-22_transcription Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Amy Vo Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jennifer Ho OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HoJennifer_VoAmy_2022-11-16.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Vietnamese American identity OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Ho, Jennifer. Interview November 16, 2022. SC027-109 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the CSUSM Faculty Center's Professional Development Grant. csusm Vietnamese American identity immigration community Jennifer Ho Amy Vo moving image HoJennifer_VoAmy_2022-11-16.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/65ce467b74a97eb8dd1a08baae44c2fe.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Jennifer Ho, November 16, 2022, by Amy Vo. 0 29 Childhood and family In this segment, Jenn talks about her childhood and family life, first in the Chicago suburbs and then in San Diego. She also shares her family’s migration stories and how her parents met. Hinsdale, Illinois ; Chicago ; office cleaning ; Vietnam ; grandparents ; San Diego ; Pensacola, Florida ; Pepperidge Farms ; Arizona ; Midwest 0 817 Vietnamese culture and community Jenn talks about her relationships to the Vietnamese communities in Chicago and in San Diego, and how her identity as a Vietnamese American has changed over time. Uptown ; Chicago ; Tet ; Vietnamese language ; Asian American identity ; Vietnamese American identity ; immigrant families ; political values 0 1628 Relationships and silences Jenn reflects on her relationship with her parents and the silences within her family. She also speculates on how she would feel about a future trip to Vietnam. ancestral inheritance ; storytelling ; family narratives 0 2223 Vietnamese identity and personal evolution Jenn speculates on her parents identities as Americans and how they may have changed since coming to the U.S. She also reflects on what makes a person Vietnamese or not. entrepreneurship ; American dream ; immigrant women ; culture and identity 0 2534 Childhood dreams and motherly influence Jenn shares her childhood dreams, and reflects on how her younger self would see her today. She also talks about the traits inherited from her mother. Hollywood ; Sandra Bullock ; libraries ; service ; mentorship 0 3114 Grandparents and language Jenn talks about her relationship with her grandparents and the love they had for each other. She also talks about their community in San Diego and the final days of their lives. Additionally, she talks about her Vietnamese language ability compared with her brother’s language ability. memory loss ; Chicago ; Thailand ; Vietnamese language ; City Heights ; Little Saigon ; Somalians ; Ethiopians ; Latinos ; community 0 3849 Food Jenn talks about her favorite Vietnamese food. She also talks about family mealtimes and how they were affected by her parents’ work schedule. Bo kho ; curry ; IndoMie ; Kung Fu Noodles ; banh xeo ; Pho Xe Lua ; banh cuon ; Thai chilies ; Taco Bell ; Laughing Cow ; Spam ; liverwurst ; pate 0 Oral history Jennifer Ho is an archivist in San Diego. In this interview, she speaks on her relationships with her family members, their immigration stories and her reflections on Vietnamese heritage and identity in the United States.&#13 ; NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000  00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:27.000 This is Amy Vo interviewing Jennifer Ho for Children of Refugees, an oral history project on the Vietnamese American experience. Today is November 16th at 12:15 p.m. Eastern time, and we are meeting via Zoom. Hi Jenn! 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:29.000 Hey Amy. (both chuckle) 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:41.000 I thought I’d start with your childhood and ask you about where you grew up and what you were like as a kid, or how you remember you were like. (laughs) 00:00:41.000 --> 00:02:42.000 Okay. I was born in Hinsdale, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago, in 1982. And what I was like as a kid. I was pretty—I was an indoor kid. Just read a lot of books. Didn’t do anything athletic. Pretty quiet. Yeah, just kind of a nerdy kid, you know. But with that said, not great at school. I was really good at like reading and writing but, you know, didn’t do great in P.E. or math or science or anything that didn’t have to do with like reading a lot. (laughs) So, yeah, I did get detention a lot because I didn’t like to do my homework. I could have done it, but I was kind of lazy, so my parents didn’t like that. And I think if you asked them, I was pretty rebellious, especially as I got into middle and high school. I mean, (chuckles) like any normal kid, I wanted to hang out and go out with my friends. But they kind of wanted me to be at home all the time, which I was fine with when I was younger. But, you know, they were scared of the world and scared of things happening to me. So, they kind of just wanted me to stay home a lot. So, I was “rebellious” in the sense that I wanted to go hang out with my friends and not do anything wild or crazy. Like we just wanted to, you know, watch TV together at someone’s house or play in the park or whatever. So, yeah, kind of nerdy but also, I guess, rebellious, if you were to ask them. They were just always worried about everything, especially my dad. So that’s how I would describe myself. 00:02:42.000 --> 00:03:02.000 That was part of another question I had, like how your family saw you as you were growing up. And I was wondering like if you could tell me about your family and the people who raised you and like why you think they saw you that way, I guess. 00:03:02.000 --> 00:07:04.000 Yeah, sure. So, something that they told me a lot in Vietnamese was “This is not how a good Vietnamese girl is supposed to be.” So, I was not a very good Vietnamese girl by their standards. So, I was raised by my mom and dad. My mom was the breadwinner. And they were married until I was 19, and then they got divorced. So, I had my dad’s parents around a lot of the time. My parents worked a lot. My mom owned—She owned a series of businesses throughout my childhood. But the main one was she owned an office cleaning business. So, at night, she and my dad would go to different office buildings in the San Diego area and clean them. They were custodians. And so, it was their business, but it was really my mom who did all the hard work. And my dad just kind of did what she told him to do. So, she was really the boss at work and in life. And so, since my parents worked so much, my grandparents looked after us a lot. And my grandma and my dad and his two brothers came over—came to the U.S. in 1975, August of 1975. And my grandfather was planning to go with them, and the story goes—And it’s kind of fuzzy in my head and I don’t know if this—how accurate this is. But the story is that he was all set to go with them to the U.S. But he, at the last minute, decided to stay in Việt Nam (Vietnam). And this is because he was a pretty high-ranking person in the military. And he just couldn’t leave his men behind. So, he actually didn’t end up coming until I was seven years old which is when I first met him. And that was in 1989, when I was seven. So, after he came, he moved in with us and was part of our lives and looked after my brother and me while my parents were at work. And my mom’s parents had passed away a long time ago. My—Her father had never really been a part of their lives in Vietnam. He was not a great father figure, not a great husband at all, from what I understand. So, he was never part of my mom’s life. But her mother—My mom immigrated here ; I don’t know what year. But she came here with her mother and three of her sisters and one of her cousins. But she passed away, my grandmother passed away when I was, I want to say, four years old. And my mom was pregnant with my brother. And she didn’t get to say goodbye, because she was pregnant. And my—her sisters didn’t want to tell her that their mom passed away. Because they didn’t want the grief to affect the baby. So, that’s how the story goes anyway. And I say that because my parents don’t really talk about anything from their past or any of their memories or anything. So, we—my brother and I—have kind of like clobbered together these little bits and pieces about them. So, we don’t really know, except for the little bit that they tell us. So, yeah, that’s who raised me. I mean my grandparents, I think, thought I was a great kid because I read books all the time, which, you know, to them is the mark of a smart person. I don’t know. But, yeah, but my parents thought I was a very naughty little girl. (both laugh) So, yeah. 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:24.000 I like hearing about your different parents’ and grandparents’ stories and how they came here. Can you talk more about how your parents met? And then—Because you said you were born in Illinois. But then, when you moved to San Diego, I’d like to hear about that too. 00:07:24.000 --> 00:11:03.000 Sure. So, my parents met in Florida. They had immigrated here separately. Didn’t know each other. And when they first came to the U.S., they both arrived in Florida. So, the story goes, they were—their mothers were taking ESL classes together at the community college, I think—I’m assuming it was the community college ; I don’t know—in Pensacola, Florida. And I don’t really know what happened but I, from what I understand, it was like “Oh. You have a daughter? Oh, I have a son. They should meet.” (both laugh) So, that’s how my parents met. And—Oh, you asked about how they–I think you asked about how they came to the U.S. My mom’s oldest sister, my Dì Hai (Di Hai, second aunt) she was a translator at the embassy in Vietnam. So, I think she just kind of like knew people and she was able to get her siblings on a helicopter. They didn’t know that they were going until the night before. So, it was like “Okay. Pack your bags. We’re outta here first thing in the morning.” And my mom has three—My mom technically has four sisters. She’s the second to youngest. But her youngest sister was given up for adoption when she was a baby because my—their family was just so poor, and my grandmother just couldn’t afford to take care of another person. And the grandfather, my grandfather, was just not really in the picture. He kind of came and went. So, she was doing—she was raising these four girls on a single person’s income, basically, in Vietnam. So, when she got pregnant again by my grandfather—and he wasn’t around, of course—she just kind of had to give the baby to, I guess, to a family friend. And they’re still in touch with that sister who still lives in Vietnam. But I’ve never met her. I wouldn’t know her if I saw her on the street. And my mom also said she wouldn’t know her sister if she saw her on the street. But they’re still technically in touch. One of my aunts converses with her regularly. So, that’s how they came here. There was a point to telling you about that sister. So, since there were technically five girls—yeah, my mom and her four sisters—there were technically five girls in the family. But since one of them was with her adoptive family, I don’t think it was actually ever a formal adoption. It was more like “Here. Take care of my child,” you know. So, since that sister wasn’t really in the picture, one of my mom’s cousins kind of took the place of that sister, so—when they all came here. So, that’s what I mean when my mom—when I say my mom came here with her three sisters, her cousin, and her mother. And then my dad, I don’t know his migration story. He came—his father was in the military and pretty high ranking, from what I understand. So, I’m assuming that’s how they managed to get passage here. But both of my parents came on helicopters. They weren’t boat people, so to speak. So, I think they were pretty privileged in that sense. 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:16.000 Yeah. So, after Florida, did they—or did they get married in Florida and then move to Illinois? Or how is their story like in America and moving around? 00:11:16.000 --> 00:13:26.000 Yeah. So, they got married, I want to say, in Florida. And the sad thing is I don’t really know because my parents’ marriage was so miserable from the start. And my childhood is just so full of them fighting all the time. So, it’s not like their wedding was any kind of happy memory that they talked about. So, I think they got married in Florida. And then they moved to the Chicago suburbs. And, I want to say they—So, my mom used to work for Pepperidge Farms. You know, they make the cookies. And she still—she gets a pension from them now, actually, which is kind of funny and I don’t know why. But she worked for Pepperidge Farm in the Chicago suburbs. And I think that’s why they moved there. And they moved there with my mom’s—or they moved there with my dad and his siblings and his mother. So, basically, she—it was her moving her in-laws and her husband all the way to Illinois. And then, meanwhile, my mom’s family had kind of scattered a little bit, but mostly went to the west coast. One of my aunt’s, my Dì Tư (Di Tu, fourth aunt) moved to Arizona. And then, I think the rest of them went to San Diego. And then, so obviously the weather in southern California is far superior to the weather in the Midwest. So, eventually, when I was four years old and my brother was one, we all joined them in San Diego. And by then, my Di Tu, I think, had also come to San Diego. And this is all very fuzzy, and I would hate for somebody to write all this as fact. Because like I said, we don’t really talk about any of this personal history in my family. So, again, this is just like little bits of information that I’ve gathered. So—But I’m pretty sure that that’s what happened. That’s the chain of events. 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:31.000 Yeah. That’s impressive, though, that you’re able to piece it together. (both laugh) 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:37.000 I mean after forty years of cobbling information together yeah, that’s what I’ve come up with. 00:13:37.000 --> 00:14:06.000 Yeah. So, I guess you may not have much memory of Illinois when you were like a toddler. But I was wondering like if you did, do you remember about how your parents or family members immersed you in Vietnamese culture? And you can talk more about that when you were more like aware of things in San Diego too. 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:07.000 Okay. 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:14.000 But I was also curious if you have any memories of things in the Chicago suburbs. 00:14:14.000 --> 00:15:40.000 Sure. I don’t really have a lot of memories in the Chicago suburbs or the Chicago area because I was so little. But the cool thing is that after grad school I moved to Chicago. And I was kind of able to revisit the areas that my family frequented. When I moved to Chicago, one of the neighborhoods that I lived in was Uptown, Chicago, which is traditionally a landing pad for immigrant communities. And, most recently, it’s been the Vietnamese community. So, if you go to Uptown, there’s a lot of Vietnamese shops and restaurants and people. And the neighborhood’s getting gentrified. So, a lot of the Vietnamese families are getting pushed out into more western neighborhoods, including the suburbs. But it’s still known as a Vietnamese area. So, when my mom and my brother came to visit me in Chicago, we kind of wandered around. And my mom was like “I remember this neighborhood. This is where we went to go grocery shopping. Your grandmother always wanted to come here and, you know, get her groceries and her jewelry and her things from this area.” So, I don’t have actual memories from when I was a kid, but it was nice to know that my mom had memories there— 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:41.000 Yeah. That’s really cool. Yeah. 00:15:41.000 --> 00:19:26.000 —So, that was cool. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That made me really happy. And then as a kid in San Diego—There’s a lot of Vietnamese people in San Diego. So, I—like we did Vietnamese things. But nothing was ever explained to me. Like we celebrated Tết (Tet, lunar new year) every year. We would go to, you know—we would go grocery shopping or go to cultural events or jewelry stores. My grandma loved jewelry, so I have to keep bringing that up. It wasn’t all real jewelry. There was like a lot of like fake costume jewelry. But she was very glamorous. And so, I always, when I think of her, I think of like the way she would take forever to get ready. Because she just always looked very put together and beautiful, and jewelry was part of that. So, anyway, so she likes jewelry. What else? So, yeah. Nothing was really explained to me as a kid. And I have a lot of memories of trying to speak Vietnamese and just being made fun of by my family, like every time. And memory is kind of tricky. So, maybe it’s just those select few times that it happened that stand out in my head. But I never really held on to the language, speaking-wise, as much as I should have. And I still don’t really try because I still hear like my grandma’s voice in my head making fun of me, like speaking Vietnamese like the robot would. Because, you know, Vietnamese is so tonal (makes an up and down wave-like motion with her right hand) and everything goes up and down. So, she would just, she would kind of make fun of me by saying, speaking sentences in like a very monotone voice (speaks very monotone), you know, which I can kind of laugh at now. But it still affects my confidence, speaking-wise. So, I don’t know how I got on that. But yeah. So, in terms of like Vietnamese community and culture, like my parents had Vietnamese friends and not a whole lot of extended family. That sounds weird to say because my mom has three sisters here, and my dad has two brothers that were nearby. But there weren’t like a lot of little cousins that I hung out with. I, to this day, I only have like—I only have four cousins total on each side, and, yeah, so not a lot of people to hang out with that were family. So, yeah, I guess I kind of always knew that I was a Vietnamese person but didn’t really start to want to connect until pretty recently, like maybe in the past decade or so, since I moved to Chicago and was in Uptown and kind of started to see myself through this lens of being an Asian American person and being a Vietnamese American person. And I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that I found myself removed from being in southern California amongst so many Asian people. And then suddenly being in the Midwest, being surrounded by white and Black people and not seeing faces like mine. And that’s when I started to connect to being Vietnamese. But before that, I was just kind of —It wasn’t something that I thought a lot about. 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:54.000 Yeah. That’s really interesting, and I think segues into another question I had which is about how do you identify yourself? And how has that changed over time? And I was also wondering about like the friends you had in San Diego and like who you surrounded yourself with and whether or not that influenced how you saw yourself or identified. 00:19:54.000 --> 00:22:20.000 Okay. Sure. So, I identify myself as a straight, cis-gendered, Vietnamese American person. I always say Vietnamese American because I feel like if you don’t have some kind of—what’s it called, that part of speech—you know, the adjective next to American. Then people assume you’re white. I mean, Vietnamese people do that too, you know. They think of American people as white people. So, I always say Vietnamese American. And I feel like the friends that I had growing up—and this only occurred to me recently as I looked back, as I reflected—but the friends that I had growing up, and definitely the friends that I have today, are all like “hyphenated” (gestures air quotes with hands) American. Like they all come, for the most part, they all come from immigrant families, whether they’re Vietnamese or Asian or not. Like they’re almost always children of immigrants. So—and I just, I think that part of our selves that’s kind of American but very not American so to speak, that really shapes the way that we see the world and the way we interact with the world. So, I’ve just always felt more of a kinship for people who are from immigrant families. And, yeah, as an adult, that’s definitely true. Yeah. I don’t necessarily have—As a kid, I didn’t have a lot of Asian American friends, even though my neighborhood was very—it was white and Asian. But as an adult, I kind of seek out people who are Asian American, because I feel like the—I don’t know. Even though Asian Americans are not a monolith, by any means, I think the way the world lumps us together creates solidarity and community. And I find a lot of comfort in that as an adult. So, yeah. I think just my sense of being is the healthiest when I’m around people who can identify with what I’ve gone through and vice versa. We just—I feel like we just understand each other better. Does that answer your question? (chuckles) 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:34.000 Yeah. I had a complicated question. Because it’s just like it’s about identity but also about community. And like I think they are intertwined. And so, you did answer the question. 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:36.000 Okay. Cool. 00:22:36.000 --> 00:23:13.000 So, what would you say your relationship is to the Vietnamese American community now? And you had mentioned earlier about how it really struck you like moving to the Midwest and not seeing as many people like you. And so, I could see how that was like a turning point and perhaps how it evolved over time. But if you can talk about that, like how you feel like your relationship has been over time. 00:23:13.000 --> 00:26:49.000 Sure. I would say that it’s complicated, my relationship with the Vietnamese American community. I think probably anyone would agree with this. A Vietnamese person is not the same thing as a Vietnamese American person. You could probably say that about anybody from any culture, country in the world. Not to say that all Vietnamese people are the same as each other or all Vietnamese Americans are the same. But there is quite a rift in our—I’ll just say it—our political values. So, as a Vietnamese American person—and just an American person of color, in general—I am pretty liberal and leftist in my values and my thinking. But Vietnamese people from Vietnam are often on the other side. I think I read this somewhere. I think it’s true that Vietnamese Americans, statistically speaking, are the largest group of Asian Americans that voted for Donald Trump. And that’s because of our, I’ll just say, our childhood—or our trauma with the war and communism and nationalism. So, that history has, you know, carried forth through today. So, I don’t like that, and I see that in my own family. But I also—yeah, I don’t like to judge people or keep people or not keep people in my life due to political values. You know, I really feel like we’re more alike than the same in that we all just want to, you know, take care of our families and have a comfortable income. Like everybody wants those things. Every human wants those things. So, I don’t like seeing that in my community and in the people that I love. Not to say that my parents have those values necessarily. So, (coughs) excuse me. So, I would say that I’m proud of my parents. I’m proud of the way that they’ve come through on the other side in terms of their struggle, not to say that there haven’t been any struggles or there still isn’t trauma. And I’m proud of my–the Vietnamese American community for, in a lot of ways, holding on to our culture. You know, I can’t speak as a person from Vietnam, but I still see that Vietnamese people are very proud of their culture and their history. And I wish I saw it in my own parents. But I like hearing about Vietnamese people who like to talk about what they’ve gone through and will share that with their children. Like your parents, like that’s really cool that your dad will tell you everything and share his feelings. So, that’s really awesome. So, yeah. I’m definitely not ashamed of being Vietnamese American, but in terms of what it means to be a Vietnamese American, I don’t know. I feel close to my culture but at the same time I’m not really. Yeah. That’s something that I’m still thinking about, as you can tell. I don’t know how I feel about it. But I definitely don’t try to hide it, for what it’s worth. 00:26:49.000 --> 00:27:05.000 Yeah. That makes sense, though. I feel like I have the same kind of feelings, too, about myself within a larger culture and like a larger culture that does have rifts in it, generational ones usually. 00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:08.000 Yeah. Absolutely. 00:27:08.000 --> 00:28:32.000 So, I guess like this is kind of related. Like after thinking about and, for you, piecing together your family’s migration story, like how do you think—Or maybe it’s a little harder since they’ve never like directly told you a actual narrative about it. But like as they get further from that time in their lives and like do you see that—Well, I guess, how does like their culture and their identities as being from Vietnam, like how, does that stay intact and how does that change? And how do those narratives change, I guess? Like have you noticed when they do say something maybe offhandedly, like their comments changing or like—I guess I’m asking for you to reflect on those stories and like what you perceive your family’s narratives to be, like and how much that feels a part of your life and your story, I guess? That’s a little complicated. (chuckles) 00:28:32.000 --> 00:31:14.000 No. It is complicated but I think that’s a really cool question. So, it does feel like my story because in the larger sense of like spirituality and the universe, I do feel like we inherit stories and trauma and success and happiness and all those things from our ancestors, even if we are not aware of it. But in the direct sense, yeah. Just because I can’t speak to my family’s story, I just don’t—yeah, I don’t know. Like I—Like the times that they have told me these bits and pieces, it was only the result of someone, usually my brother who is really good about this. He’ll ask really direct questions, like questions that you and I talk about for our oral history interviews. Like he’ll say like—Like he asked my aunts, because we were all at Thanksgiving dinner—this was like ten years ago or something. But he was—he asked like “how did you get to go to Vietnam? Like logistics were involved? Like how did you and not other people get seats on this helicopter?” So, that’s how I know about my aunt working at the embassy, being a translator. Because he—If you ask my, anyone in my family, like (talks in a lower, comical voice) “What was it like to be a kid in Vietnam?” they’re not going to know. Like they’ll just be like “It was fine.” Like that’ll be their answer. (both laugh) So, you really have to get down to the nitty gritty and ask these very specific questions. And I haven’t really done that with them. And I think part of the reason is because they—And I don’t really want to talk about this on the record. So, I’ll just say they—I didn’t have a great childhood, a lot of which is probably due to their trauma and passing it along to me in ways they didn’t intend. So, I don’t feel a strong emotional connection to them. And part of me doesn’t really want to talk to them about it. So, yeah, I feel like I could ask more, and I could learn more about them and about myself. But there’s just already such a rift there between us that I just have kind of given up on them in that sense. I see them every weekend and we’re fine. But I don’t have that sense of closeness to them to where I could approach those topics with them. 00:31:14.000 --> 00:32:28.000 Yeah. I think that like we talk about family narratives and stuff. But part of why we work on this project is to hear about the overarching narratives that happen in the community. And, like you said, those stories are part of like you, and like inherited in a like physiological way even. But like knowing that there’s a greater pattern among other people as well, outside of your family, I feel like is another way to get in touch with, you know, our culture and our history as Vietnamese people, Vietnamese American people. So, I was wondering have you ever thought about, or have you ever been back to, Vietnam? And like if you haven’t, has it ever crossed your mind? Or like is it something that you’d want to do? And like your thoughts around that and how you would go about it. 00:32:28.000 --> 00:36:54.000 So, I’ve never been to Vietnam. We—my mom and my brother and I were tentatively planning to go in 2020 and that was—that didn’t happen. I would like to go, partially as a tourist because I’m just interested in seeing other places, and partially to see where my parents grew up. But I don’t think I don’t think even they want to see where they grew up. Like they just are not, from what I can tell and I could be totally wrong on this, but they just aren’t connected to their past. Like I know that if we go, I’m not going to hear stories about anything unless I ask really pointed questions. And I kind of feel like if my mom wanted to share, she would have. So, I could—If and when I go with my mom and my brother, I know that I can be like “Okay, mom. Where’s the house where you grew up? And who was your best friend? And was there a swing set you played on?” I’m just making things up. And I could ask these direct, pointed questions—my brother definitely could. But I kind of feel like she—because she was such an unhappy kid, from what I understand anyway—I just don’t really want to go there. I feel like I should go there, but I mean I don’t want to go there mentally or emotionally. I don’t mean to Vietnam. Yeah, I don’t know if I want to put her through that, and I don’t know if I want to put myself through that. But I am still curious, and I’m still interested. And I think if she really put her foot down and was like “Okay. We’re going this year. We’re buying the tickets,” then I would go. But it’s just not really a priority for me. I feel like I ought to go and if my parents pass away—I mean, of course they’re going to pass away one day—but if I don’t go with them before they pass away, I think I might regret it. But I just don’t know if I’m ready. And I also don’t want to be disappointed by their lack of reflection or storytelling or any kind of information sharing. And I have a feeling, knowing them, that that’s how it would be. My dad actually went to Vietnam with his new wife last year. (clears throat) Excuse me. And I asked him how it went, and he was like “It was fine. It was good.” (Vo laughs and Ho shakes her head and furrows her brow) And like he—I know he visited some people. He visited like one of his aunts and some of his cousins that he like knew as a kid. He showed me some pictures. But when I tried—I actually tried to ask him specific questions. I don’t remember what I asked him. But I got nothing out of it. Like he didn’t have any kind of reflection to share with me. And I think that part of them—if it ever existed—that reflective, I don’t know, muscle, that sense of wanting to know yourself or get in touch with your feelings, if they ever had that it’s atrophied. Like they just don’t think about the past. They don’t reflect on it, except to maybe think about, I don’t know, regrets or not having money or direct, today-related things like that. But they just don’t think about their pasts. So, going back to your question, yeah. I’d go to Vietnam, but I don’t know. I’m just not—I would really have to check myself so that I don’t have high expectations. Because I’m pretty sure they would not be met which is a horrible attitude (laughs) but, you know, just keepin’ it real. I just don’t think that I would get a lot out of it. Or I’d have to really prepare somehow, and I don’t know how I would do that. So, yeah. 00:36:54.000 --> 00:37:00.000 Yeah. I mean I feel like that’s being realistic. (both laugh) You know your parents. 00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:03.000 Yeah. Definitely. 00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:50.000 I guess that makes me curious about what they’re like and how they keep in touch with like their identities as Vietnamese people and like how they see themselves in America. Because like I feel like thinking about their past, that’s so intertwined with like their origins as being from Vietnam. So, like trying to disconnect from that, I wonder like how do they—like from what you can tell, like how do they feel as Americans and as being Vietnamese in America? 00:37:50.000 --> 00:41:52.000 That’s a good question. You know, I’m not sure. I feel like my—there’s a lot of really good—mmm, how do I say this? So, my mom and her sisters are all really tough, independent, strong women. And my grandmother was the same way, their mom. There, definitely the thing that I appreciate most about my mom is that she’s like crazy hardworking and there’s nothing she cannot do if she decides she wants to do it. So, she’s always been very strong-willed and independent and entrepreneurial. So, I think—And her sisters are the same way. So, I think as it relates to your question and their identities as Vietnamese Americans, I think there’s a sense of pride in the lives that they’ve built for themselves, in that they haven’t really had to ever—And I’m not, definitely not, judging anyone who does this because I kind of get it—But they’ve never had to be in a relationship for the sake of being taken care of. They’ve never married for money which I kind of see a lot of immigrant women doing which, again, I get it, you know. It’s expensive. And, I mean, buying a home is expensive and taking care of yourself and your kids, that’s not easy. So, definitely don’t judge people for doing that. But my mom and her sisters have never had to do that. So, I think that this American dream as we call it, which is BS in a lot of ways, has really worked out for them. And I’m very proud of them for doing that. My dad’s side is—I don’t know, my dad wasn’t the breadwinner. And he was taken care of by my mom while they were married. So, he’s not built the same way as they are. That’s all I’ll say. (chuckles) But in terms of carrying their heritage, all of them, as Vietnamese Americans, you know, I don’t know. All my—My parents and aunts and uncles all speak Vietnamese and eat Vietnamese food and celebrate all of the traditional holidays. But, you know, I’m not sure what it is about them that makes them specifically Vietnamese, other than those things, which you could say about, you know, a Polish person or a, you know, anybody else from another culture and country. So, I don’t know. That’s a question that I think about a lot, too, for them and for myself and my brother. Like what is it that makes us Vietnamese? Or what makes us special? I don’t really know. And I don’t want to just pin everything on food and holidays. Because that’s kind of just like anybody can cook food and anybody can celebrate a holiday. So, what is it about Vietnamese people or, you know, what is it that makes the culture unique or special or is a marking of that specific culture? I don’t know. This will be a good question to ask them. But I don’t know if they would be willing to answer that (both laugh) either. Yeah. I’m not sure. I don’t know. I don’t know how to answer that. That was my long-winded way of saying I have no idea. 00:41:52.000 --> 00:42:10.000 Well, that’s a hard question and like you can’t really pinpoint like a specific thing. But like—So, and then it’s hard to think about like big picture kind of things, too. But I thought I’d ask and see if you had any—what your thoughts were. (laughs) 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:14.000 Cool, cool. I’m glad you asked. 00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:41.000 I’m going to switch gears a little bit and ask about if you had any goals or dreams for when you grew up, as you were growing up. Like what did you think about adulthood being like and what you envisioned yourself being? Like what did you want when you were growing up? And like how would your younger self feel about where you are now? 00:42:41.000 --> 00:45:28.000 That’s a good question. When I was a child, I wanted to be a movie star. (both laugh) I literally wanted to be a movie star. And I was obsessed with movies and Hollywood, and I would go to the movies and see like the, you know, the big posters (indicates a large square item with hands) on the wall with Sandra Bullock or whoever. And I’d be like “Yeah. That’s going to be me one day.” (furrows brow and shakes head) I don’t know. I don’t know where that came from, honestly. Because that sounds like a complete nightmare to me now. So, then as I grew up, I wanted to—I’ve had so many different careers before I landed on being an archivist. But they were always in the vein of like being of service to people. So, I wanted to be—I wanted to work in hospitality for a long time, in hotels, which I did for quite a long time. And then social work. And then I wanted to teach. So, they were all professions where you have to give in some way to people. And I think being a librarian and an archivist is not any different from that. So–and I think there’s so many ways in which I’m like my mom, fortunately and unfortunately. But that’s one of them. She’s always kind of dedicated herself to helping people. So, what would my childhood self think of what I do now? I don’t know! You know, I never really thought of—I mean, there was a brief period of time where I thought about, you know, being married and what my kids’ names would be. But that didn’t really last long, I think, partially because my parents’ marriage was so miserable. I just—That kind of—That dream just kind of fizzled out. I’m not opposed to any of that now but, you know, I’m forty and I’m single and have no kids which I’m very, definitely okay with, no joke. But it’s not a priority at this point. So, yeah, I think—I don’t know. I didn’t really think about myself in like career terms when I was a kid. But I did love the library. And I did go—My dad took me to the library all the time. And if he couldn’t take me, then one of my uncles would take me. So, I always had very positive associations with the library. Never thought of it as a career or anything when I was a kid. So, I guess, I don’t know. I guess now that I think about it, maybe I would have thought my adult self is pretty cool for being a librarian, I hope. But yeah. Yeah, I don’t know if that answers the question, but— 00:45:28.000 --> 00:46:08.000 No, it does. I guess I was—Like when you were mentioning the different careers that you’ve been in, that made me wonder about like—and you mentioned that your mom is also a very giving person who wants to be of help in service to others. I wanted to ask more about that part of you, and like when you first—Or like is there a moment when you first started to think “Oh. This is—I really like doing this and like helping other people.” And like how that—And like how you came to know that part of yourself? 00:46:08.000 --> 00:47:39.000 Hhmmm. That’s a good question. I don’t think there was a specific moment, honestly. I think part of it might stem from being a people pleaser as a kid which might have been a, I don’t know, like a self-preservation mechanism because, you know, my parents were very controlling and demanding. So, I think that may be part of it. So, being a people pleaser and then going into a service profession where you have to help people and meet their needs, like there might be some kind of psychological connection there. But I hope that’s not the only reason that I do what I do. So, yeah. I don’t think there was a specific moment. I just kind of—It’s just always felt right to me to give in some way. And as an adult, especially in the last few years, I’ve learned how to, you know, create boundaries and, you know, pay attention to my own needs and not the needs of the people around me so much. So, that’s helped me become a healthy adult. But yeah. This is just always what’s felt natural to me after I decided I wasn’t going to be a movie star. (both laugh) 00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:45.000 I wonder what that would have been like if you pursued that. (laughs) 00:47:45.000 --> 00:48:19.000 Yeah. I don’t know, man. I don’t think I would have been successful. I definitely would have been a brat. Like, you know, being one of those people who, you know, everyone says “Yes” to you. Like, I don’t know. I’m thinking of ultra famous people where people are at your beck and call. I don’t think I would have turned out to be a very nice person if I had people like, you know, fawning all around me and trying to meet my every need. So, maybe it’s a good thing that didn’t happen. 00:48:19.000 --> 00:49:00.000 To go in the same vein of like your path, and I don’t mean just like career path either, but I was wondering as you were growing up and going through school and your work and everything and just going through life, if you had any influential mentors or teachers, and like influential people in that way like outside of your family who really made a difference in your life? And like how you saw yourself or how you saw yourself as a person, I guess. I feel like sometimes there are people like that. 00:49:00.000 --> 00:51:50.000 Yeah. That’s a good question. I know it’s very cliché, but my mom is a very influential figure, as she would be for any person. But she’s, specifically, she’s just so tough and super strong-willed and some would say stubborn, which is not a positive trait. But I just really appreciate that about her. And so, I can see myself in her in that like if I decide to do something, like, it’s happening. I’m making it happen regardless of any perceived obstacles. Like I’ve never really said “Oh, what if it doesn’t work out.” Like I don’t really even think about that. And I think that comes from her. And her mother, from what I understand, was very much the same. Like they didn’t have a great relationship growing up. But my grandmother was very entrepreneurial too, and she had all these kids to take care of. But she was just—you know, she hustled. And she like opened businesses and had all these different like streams of income in order to bring in money to feed her kids. So, I just really appreciate and respect that from my mom’s side. In terms of other mentors, you know, I—Yeah, I had some really good teachers growing up, in grade school, who were always interested in what I had to say and what my thoughts were. And I got attention from them in ways that I didn’t at home, you know. Like they actually validated my feelings and my thoughts and my work, so really good teachers. You know, I think every person in my life that’s had some kind of mentorship role has been someone who validates me. And I think I say that because my family just didn’t. You know, we don’t do that. They were never like “Oh, you do such a great job,” or “I’m proud of you,” or “I care about you,” or “You’re great!” Like I never got that at home, ever! So, even like up ‘til today, like I have people at work that I look up to. And it’s just the same thing. Like they’ll tell me that I’m doing a great job, or they really liked this aspect of this project. Or just—they’ll have all these affirming words. And that’s something that I really need, unfortunately. So, yeah, in terms of mentors, like there’s lots of people that come to mind. But it’s always—they are always people who provide that for me. 00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:52.000 Yeah. 00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:54.000 Yeah. 00:51:54.000 --> 00:52:33.000 You also talked about your grandparents raising you when you were growing up. So, I was wondering about like their influence in your life. Like what kind of time did they spend with you? Or were they just like in the same room at the same time? Or in the same building? (laughs) And like—And then I wanted to ask about mealtimes and like who did the cooking and stuff like that. But you can start with I want to know more about growing up in a multi-generational home with your grandparents. 00:52:33.000 --> 00:55:02.000 Sure. Yeah. So, my grandparents that I grew up with were my dad’s parents. And they were really loving and caring in the way I feel like only grandparents are. So, I definitely didn’t get the same criticism from them that I did from my parents. I didn’t really get a lot of praise either. But, you know, at least I wasn’t criticized. So, yeah, my grandparents didn’t really share a lot of their stories with me either. Definitely not the kind of grandparents who were like “Oh, let me tell you about when I was a kid.” Like there wasn’t any of that. They passed away in 2019, just one month apart from each other. And it was really wild because they—my grandfather was—he had, I don’t think it was Alzheimer's. I think it was just short-term memory loss, not just, but not to the extent where he was actually like diagnosed as dementia or Alzheimer’s. So, and after a while, he just couldn’t really take care of himself. And my dad was not in a situation where he could have my grandfather move in. And my uncle—he just—none of my dad, or then neither of his brothers could take care of him. So, he went to a nursing home. But he was visited often. They did not ignore him. I just wanted to state that for the record. (Vo chuckles) So, he was in this home for like a year, I want to say. I was living in Chicago at the time. So, that’s kind of fuzzy. But my grandma was okay. And she was pretty sharp up until like maybe the week before she passed. And so, anyway, I say all this because he—They were not living together and my family didn’t tell my grandmother that my grandfather had passed. But somehow, a month after he passed, she did too. And they weren’t together. But I guess somehow you just know. And I think that’s really beautiful. So, in terms of how they raised me, sorry, I keep going back and forth. (laughs) 00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:04.000 No. That’s okay. 00:55:04.000 --> 00:58:00.000 Yeah, they were great. When I got my master’s degree, my grandpa was really happy about that. So, he told me I was number one. That was it. He’s like “You, number one.” He said it in English. But, yeah, they didn’t say much else, but I could tell he was really proud of me. So, yeah, my parents, when I was a kid, my parents worked a lot. And so, my grandma was always there taking care of us or my grandpa. And, you know, they didn’t really play a lot with us or interact a lot with us. But they were just always there, you know. My brother and I would play with each other, or we might have a friend over or play video games. He would play video games, and I would be reading a book or whatever. So, not a ton of interaction, but they were definitely around which I appreciate now. And, yeah, my grandma, a couple years before—(coughs) sorry, I’m not used to talking so much. A couple of years before they started to get ill, my grandma told my brother a story about how she—my grandfather was, I guess, in Thailand with the military doing something. And he was like in a prison there, for some reason. I still don’t know. So, my grandma had to like find passage to Thailand which isn’t technically that far. But you can’t just like stroll on over, you know. So, oh my gosh. I’d have to ask my brother what the details of the story are. And I think I’ll do that if I interview him. But basically, she just told the story about how it took like a whole week for her to get to my grandpa. And all she wanted to do was like bring him supplies, like socks and medicine and that kind of thing. But she had to like talk to all these different people and like pay people to like let her cross and like bribe them and that kind of thing. And my grandmother was actually pretty well off in Vietnam. Like she had some money. And then my grandfather was pretty high ranking. So, they were not—they were relatively privileged, unlike my mom’s family. But even with all that privilege, it was still quite an obstacle to get—to find him and get him these supplies. So, and the reason I bring it up was because that’s the one memory that I have of her telling a story. And it was because—And it was just, you know, her wanting to get to her husband so she could care for him in some way. So, that really stands out, that love that they had for each other. 00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:03.000 Yeah. That’s really sweet. 00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:06.000 Yeah. It is. 00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:44.000 So, the conversations that you did have, were they mostly in Vietnamese? And like what kind of conversation—I mean, it sounded like, because she was able to talk about her story with you, that you were able to talk with one another. But I was wondering about like if there were any language barriers. Or—Because you also talked about not feeling comfortable speaking Vietnamese with them. So, what was that like as a component of your relationship with them? 00:58:44.000 --> 01:01:01.000 So, my brother is actually really good about trying to speak Vietnamese. Like his Vietnamese also isn’t great. But he tries really hard, unlike me. So, when I say that she told the story, she was really telling him the story. And she only told him a story because he asked in Vietnamese. So, yeah, I could understand most of the story which was told only in Vietnamese. And my comprehension is actually pretty decent. But I have never really been able to converse with my grandparents other than, you know, “How are you?” “I’m hungry,” you know, like the things that you need to be able to communicate. Yeah, my dad was always around—or not always around. But, as an adult, when I visited my grandparents, my dad was always around. Like he would take us to visit them. And he speaks both English and Vietnamese. So, he always just kind of translated for me. So, yeah, I can’t really—I was never really able to communicate with my grandparents much at all. But they were able to communicate with me. So, I guess I’m the lucky one. But yeah, my brother—Yeah, everything that I know is because my brother is willing to put forth that effort. He doesn’t have that trauma the way I do. So—I can speak–or I actually read and write to a certain degree, like I don’t know, maybe to a third-grade level or something. But I can. And my brother doesn’t have that ability, ironically. So, yeah. Everything my grandparents said to us was in Vietnamese. They could speak, you know, okay-ish English. But they didn’t really. They were able to, you know, get around, go to the grocery store, like American grocery stores and talk to American people in English, to a certain extent. So, they were okay. But in the family, they only spoke Vietnamese. So, yeah, not a lot of communication with my grandparents. 01:01:01.000 --> 01:01:32.000 Yeah. What were they like? Or I’m guessing—what was their community like? Do you remember like growing up and them seeing other people that were their friends or family? And like how often did they get out of the house and like those kind of interpersonal things? And like did they ever take you places to meet those people and go to events and things? 01:01:32.000 --> 01:03:40.000 Yeah. So, my grandparents—everyone on my dad’s side, actually including my dad, they’re all very social people. My mom’s side is more introverted and quiet. But my dad’s side is pretty, pretty social and extroverted. So, my grandparents definitely had their own community of Vietnamese people. They had their friends. All the people in their lives, in terms of like, I don’t know, service people, like their doctors, dentists, etc. were all Vietnamese. And they lived in San Diego on—they lived in City Heights, which is Little Saigon in San Diego, basically. Just like Uptown in Chicago, City Heights is traditionally, you know, a landing pad for immigrant people. But it’s mostly Vietnamese people now. And there’s also Somalians, and Ethiopians, and a lot of Latino folks. So, it’s really a melting pot for, you know, all these different like crosswalks and intersections of life. But a lot of immigrant people and a lot of Vietnamese people. So, they lived in that area, and they definitely had a community. Like I didn’t really like socialize like, you know, like (laughs) go to the bars with them or anything. And I know you weren’t asking that. (Vo laughs) But there were always Vietnamese people around and they had their friends. And they had siblings who were in San Diego. So, yeah. They were always very connected. And so, I felt connected when they were alive. And I still feel connected to Vietnamese people, although I don’t know how I’ll—if that will still be true after my gran—after my parents pass away. And I know you didn’t ask that. But that’s where my mind went, so yeah. They were always connected with the Vietnamese Vietnamese community. And they were older when they came here. So, they definitely held on to that, to their culture and their heritage really well. 01:03:40.000 --> 01:04:04.000 Yeah. I’m always so like impressed or like happy for older folks who are able to like stay engaged in that way, with like people around them and like their wider community. Because I feel like that’s really healthy and like—And so, I can see why they lived so long. 01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:09.000 Yeah. That’s a good point actually. I never thought about that. Yeah. 01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:18.000 Yeah. Well, I wanted to ask you about your favorite dish, since I really liked it when you asked me that question. (chuckles) 01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:19.000 Okay. 01:04:19.000 --> 01:04:53.000 What’s your favorite meal to eat? What’s your favorite Vietnamese dish? What’s your favorite snack? And then like what’s the thing that you’re able to cook yourself that you like feel—Like for me, at least, whenever I have guests or visitors over, I’m like “Oh. I’m going to make bò kho (bo kho) for them to eat. Because I make it pretty well. So, like what’s that for you? What’s your favorite thing to eat? 01:04:53.000 --> 01:06:03.000 My favorite thing to eat, Vietnamese-wise, is—Well, probably anything-wise, is Vietnamese curry. My mom makes it the best, of course. And so, I’m vegetarian. So, she makes it for me with just like, you know, the typical things like tofu, and taro, and carrots. And, I don’t know, whatever she puts in it, it’s always good. I don’t even know. And I feel like Vietnamese curry is so hard to find that whenever I go to a Vietnamese restaurant and I see curry on the menu, like that’s what I’m getting. Period. If it’s vegetarian, then that’s my default order. And I feel like it’s always good. It’s like pizza, like you can’t really go wrong. Even if it’s bad, it’s still good. So, I don’t really cook Vietnamese food, unless you count—which this shouldn’t count—the noodles in the packet. It’s not ramen. I don’t even know what the name is. But— 01:06:03.000 --> 01:06:04.000 Is it IndoMie? 01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:57.000 It’s not IndoMie. It’s a Vietnamese, or it’s in Vietnamese. And it’s been around forever. And even when I wasn’t vegetarian, I would get—My dad liked the onion flavor. And he would always eat that. So, sometimes I make that at home for like just a comfort food meal. There’s like a little packet of seasoning. And then there’s the oil packet. And then my dad would always add things like sliced onions, and like lettuce leaves, and just things to like bulk it up. So, that’s one of my favorite things to make at home. But I would never give that to a guest. (both laugh) It would be so embarrassing. I think it’s called Kung Fu. (looks to her right and seems to be looking something up on the computer) Kung Fu noodles. Oh, is it okay to Google it during the—? Yeah. It’s fine. (Vo laughs) It’s our project. Kung Fu noodles. 01:06:57.000 --> 01:07:03.000 Yeah. I want to know what it is. I don’t think I’ve ever had it. 01:07:03.000 --> 01:07:16.000 Yes. This is it. Onion flavor. I’ll share my screen. I hope it’s okay. Onion…This, oh my god. This is it. Okay. Um, I’m going to share real quick. 01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:21.000 Okay. 01:07:21.000 --> 01:07:23.000 (Shares screen and the image is of a package of noodles called “Kung-Fu” on the Amazon website) Can you see that? 01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:27.000 It’s loading. Wow! I’ve never seen it! 01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:46.000 Oh, really? Okay. Well, we’ll—if we see each other at SAA next summer, I’ll bring you a packet. It’s really delicious, although that might just be my childhood nostalgia. (Screen sharing stops) Saying that, it probably isn’t even that great. But it’s the onion flavor. And I guess it’s not Vietnamese. It says “Mì Hành” (Mi Hanh) something. 01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:48.000 Yeah, there’s Vietnamese on it. 01:07:48.000 --> 01:08:03.000 On it, so yeah. That’s kind of Vietnamese. So, yeah, that’s what I make at home more often than I care to admit. But I don’t really cook Vietnamese food. And I feel like it’s so labor intensive. I mean— 01:08:03.000 --> 01:08:42.000 I know. Yeah. I get that. Especially like the more popular or well-known dishes, like even making bánh xèo (banh xeo) is like, do I want to go through frying each pancake or whatever? HO: Yeah. It takes forever. My mom will make banh xeo for us kind of often. But she—and when I say “us,” I mean me and her. But like she can’t sit and relax and enjoy it with me. Like she’s just standing there the whole time and cooking and then she’ll like sneak in bites. So, that kind of sucks. 01:08:42.000 --> 01:08:49.000 I also wanted to ask, when you eat curry, do you eat it with rice or with bread? Because sometimes—or with noodles? Like rice noodles. 01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:50.000 I like it with noodles. 01:08:50.000 --> 01:08:51.000 Yeah. Okay. 01:08:51.000 --> 01:09:02.000 Yeah. That’s my favorite. I will eat it with French bread if the bread is toasted. Rice is good too. I mean rice goes with everything. So, yeah, out of the three, I would pick noodles. But they’re all winners. 01:09:02.000 --> 01:09:11.000 Okay. I was wondering because I know I’ve had all three. But I feel like everyone would have their preference. (laughs) 01:09:11.000 --> 01:10:23.000 Yeah. Definitely. Noodles are my preference, period, in life. So— And then food-wise. Okay. (holds head in her hands) I have to say, in Chicago, there was this restaurant called Phở Xe Lửa (Pho Xe Lua), and some people call it “PXL” for short. And they had—The lady that ran it, or who owned it, trained with Vietnamese monks. So, there was a really extensive vegetarian menu. And I loved that place for that reason. Everything was so good. And the thing that I would get the most there was a—(whispers to herself, scratching her head) oh god—it was not bánh ướt (banh uot), but something just like it. So, like I guess white people now call them rice rolls. But just the flat rice layers that are—Oh, there’s a name for it. What is it? And they’re just kind of rolled up and they’re just—you just put the nước mắm (nuoc mam) on them, and they get really soggy, and you eat them with chả lụa (cha lua) and all the veggies. I’m kicking myself because I can’t remember the name. 01:10:23.000 --> 01:10:25.000 Is it—It’s—is it bánh cuốn (banh cuon)? 01:10:25.000 --> 01:10:26.000 Yes! 01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:27.000 Oh, okay. 01:10:27.000 --> 01:10:29.000 Yes. Banh cuon. Yes. That’s it. 01:10:29.000 --> 01:10:31.000 Yeah. I love banh cuon. 01:10:31.000 --> 01:10:38.000 Yeah. (Vo laughs) It’s always—Yeah. I like wet foods. So that one always hits the spot. 01:10:38.000 --> 01:10:47.000 Yeah. I always think of it as like a brunch meal too. I don’t know if that’s just how–when we would eat it, like for brunch on the weekend. 01:10:47.000 --> 01:10:49.000 Oh! Interesting. Okay. 01:10:49.000 --> 01:11:11.000 Yeah. Banh cuon. Yeah. Well, I guess, do you have any other thoughts about food? (both laugh) Or like mealtimes or cooking or like any things that your family did together with food? 01:11:11.000 --> 01:13:26.000 Um, I think the thing that stands out to me most in terms of family mealtime is that for a long time my mom owned a little chain of stores at the mall. So, she sold like formal wear for children for like weddings, or quinceañeras, or just, you know, little tuxedos and dresses for little kids. So, that kept her very busy, and my dad, it kept him very busy too. And so, for a long time we would just go to the grocery store once a week and buy like frozen meals to pop in the microwave to eat at home because they were too busy to cook. My mom was too busy to cook. So, yeah, my mom talked about that not long ago and like expressed how much she regretted that she had to put us through that, which was nice of her to acknowledge. And I don’t think it was the worst thing. Like I get it. She was busy. So, but yeah, that stands out to me a lot. So, I think that’s it. Yeah, my grandma cooked, but not often. And she would make soup a lot. Like she would make phở (pho)and other soupy, noodley things. And what I remember about her is two things. She would always, whether it was at home or a restaurant, she would get like the fresh chili peppers, (indicates something about two inches long with her right thumb and forefinger) the red ones—like I think they were Thai chilis—and she would slice them up into little slices. They were fresh and she would slice them up and add them to her soup. She liked hot food, like spicy food. So, she—if we were at home, she had those ready. And then if we were at a restaurant, she would request them. And then—And she would always either have scissors or—No! She always had scissors at home, and if we were going out to a restaurant, she would keep scissors in her purse so that she could cut the noodles in the restaurant which I always thought really embarrassing. But now, as an adult, I’m like yeah. You’ve got to take care of your own needs. So, that’s awesome. (both laugh) 01:13:26.000 --> 01:13:53.000 I think people also don’t get like scissors are actually a very important part of eating in that way. Like I’ve done—I’ve cut things like in the kitchen or while I’m eating, with scissors. And other people who aren’t like Vietnamese or Asian even like are like confused, or aren’t used to it, I guess. Yeah. 01:13:53.000 --> 01:14:05.000 Yeah. I feel like, yeah, I’ve never actually done that myself. I don’t have kitchen scissors. But I definitely appreciate how handy they are. So,— 01:14:05.000 --> 01:14:58.000 I like that story about your grandma. Thank you. (both laugh) Can I ask another—one more question—about like are there foods?—because, for me, I’ve experienced this where they’re American foods that kids love but like, for me, it was very foreign. And so, it was like an experience that I sought out. I was like “I want to try this American food.” Yeah, is—Do you have experiences like that? Like growing up with eating a certain type of food but then like your peers experience like different types of food. And then you don’t know, like you aren’t able to connect to that. Or like then you’re like “I want to try that.” Or—Does that question make sense? 01:14:58.000 --> 01:17:17.000 Yes. It makes sense. I’m trying to think of an answer. That’s a good question. I, you know, I think–I don’t think I have a lot of that because my parents worked so much and we always had that frozen food stuff. So, I, you know, ate like lasagna or Marie Callendar’s or those things. And then sometimes like McDonalds and that kind of stuff too. The only answer I can think of is when my dad—was it my dad? I can’t—I think it was actually my best friend in high school. Her name was Lisa. She was white. And she—we got these passes to go off campus for lunch. So, it felt like, you know, the big time, right? Like you were allowed to go off campus for lunch as long as you come back. So, I think on one of our first times doing that, we went to Taco Bell. And I had never been to Taco Bell before. I don’t remember what we got but I remember loving it and wanting to go there as much as I could after that. Like I had never given it a second thought. But then it’s like the world opened up before me. So, yeah, so then I took my dad and my brother there, and they loved it too! (both laugh) Um, that’s all I can think of. Yeah. I feel like we went out to eat a lot, my family and I did, because my parents were just so busy. So, we didn’t really have another choice. And then my grandma, I guess she could have cooked. But she didn’t really cook much, and I don’t know why. I’m sure she would have, but I don’t know why she didn’t cook that much because you think of a grandmother like always cooking, right? But I don’t really have memories of her cooking for us. She also didn’t really get along with my mom. So, that might have had something to do with it (shrugs) looking back. Maybe my mom didn’t want her to or something. But yeah, food-wise, I feel like we were—yeah, my parents always preferred Vietnamese food first. But we were—I feel like we were pretty adventurous compared to other immigrant families just because we didn’t really have a choice. So, yeah. 01:17:17.000 --> 01:17:38.000 Yeah. That makes sense. Because I was thinking of like cheese kind of based things, because a lot of people in my family don’t eat cheese, because it’s like not really part of Vietnamese cuisine. So, like if there’s cheese, they won’t eat it. Um, my dad— 01:17:38.000 --> 01:17:40.000 Even Laughing Cow? 01:17:40.000 --> 01:17:54.000 —yeah. My dad loves cheese, though. So, I was wondering if there’s stuff like that that influenced your experiences of like things that are American that you didn’t eat ‘til later. 01:17:54.000 --> 01:18:13.000 My dad—I don’t think this counts—but my dad really liked liverwurst, like paté. But it was always like the—what brand was it? It was like an American brand. It wasn’t Asian or Vietnamese at all. And he would eat that a lot. And he liked Spam a lot too. 01:18:13.000 --> 01:18:15.000 Oh, yes. (laughs) 01:18:15.000 --> 01:18:40.000 Of course. And he would just take whatever ingredients and like put them all in a baguette. And the Laughing Cow, of course. Yeah. I don’t know. Nothing stands out other than those things. So, after I found out what liverwurst is, I stopped eating it. (Vo laughs) Even before I was vegetarian. I was like “Nope. Not eating that anymore.” It was really good though. (chuckles) 01:18:40.000 --> 01:18:45.000 I know. I remember—I know this is your interview, but— 01:18:45.000 --> 01:18:47.000 That’s okay, no. (shakes head) 01:18:47.000 --> 01:18:55.000 When I was a kid, we loved eating paté on like toast. And my brother called it quẹt quẹt (quet quet) because you kind of like smear it. (motions smearing with her right hand) 01:18:55.000 --> 01:18:58.000 Oh. (laughs) 01:18:58.000 --> 01:19:12.000 And then like we had friends over, and we were like “You want a snack?” And then we—and my mom told them what it was, and they were like “Oh my god! Don’t want it.” But yeah. 01:19:12.000 --> 01:19:14.000 Was that embarrassing? 01:19:14.000 --> 01:19:35.000 I don’t know. I was just like—I guess it was a little embarrassing, but since I still think about it (both laugh) from time to time. But yeah, well was there anything else that you wanted to talk about before we wrap up? 01:19:35.000 --> 01:19:40.000 Mmm, no, nothing comes to mind. This was a good interview. Thank you. 01:19:40.000 --> 01:19:44.000 Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you for your time. 01:19:44.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Of course. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made.&#13 ; &#13 ; Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HoJennifer_VoAmy_2022-11-16.xml HoJennifer_VoAmy_2022-11-16.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ho, Jennifer. Interview November 16, 2022. Description An account of the resource Jennifer Ho is an archivist in San Diego. In this interview, she speaks on her relationships with her family members, their immigration stories and her reflections on Vietnamese heritage and identity in the United States. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-109 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jennifer Ho Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Amy Vo Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Immigration; Ethnic identity Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Chicago (Ill.); San Diego (Calif.); Vietnam Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/84ae61e13edb5b77f7c9e0f20e8a3871.pdf b228deb516bbe3d45948b5f1f70a4926 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ho, Jennifer. Interview transcript, November 16, 2022. Description An account of the resource Jennifer Ho is an archivist in San Diego. In this interview, she speaks on her relationships with her family members, their immigration stories and her reflections on Vietnamese heritage and identity in the United States. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jennifer Ho Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melissa Martin Amy Vo Jennifer Ho Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-11-16 Subject The topic of the resource Vietnamese diaspora; Refugees; Immigration; Ethnic identity Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Chicago (Ill.); San Diego (Calif.); Vietnam Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright.</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Jennifer Ho Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HoJennifer_VoAmy_2022-11-16_transcript Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Children of Refugees Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Anthony L. Jackson OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=JacksonAnthony_VisintainerSean_2023-03-07_access.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Jackson, Anthony. Interview March 7, 2023. SC027-32 2:18:08 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM csusm California State University San Marcos ; Civil rights demonstrations ; Iraq War, 2003-2011 ; Military families ; Mormon Church ; Piracy -- Indian Ocean ; Racism ; United States. Marine Corps ; Camp Pendleton (Calif.) ; Houston (Tex.) ; Indian Ocean ; Oakland (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Stuttgart (Germany) ; United States. Africa Command. Anthony L. Jackson Sean Visintainer JacksonAnthony_VisintainerSean_2023-03-07_access.mp4 2.0:|72(14)|107(6)|150(11)|238(14)|318(10)|378(6)|429(9)|478(5)|513(6)|550(15)|599(3)|636(6)|675(8)|701(7)|744(6)|778(3)|837(7)|886(11)|920(15)|983(7)|1022(16)|1047(11)|1097(18)|1155(12)|1211(5)|1239(4)|1286(11)|1308(15)|1359(3)|1403(14)|1438(17)|1491(2)|1534(15)|1577(4)|1628(9)|1666(10)|1714(2)|1746(10)|1766(5)|1841(2)|1872(10)|1906(14)|1950(3)|1999(3)|2022(6)|2061(11)|2091(3)|2124(4)|2167(3)|2194(9)|2275(11)|2301(14)|2328(13)|2395(13)|2425(8)|2461(11)|2492(10)|2558(16)|2602(17)|2647(2)|2687(9)|2745(9)|2776(12)|2807(8)|2872(15)|2921(18)|2971(2)|3025(4)|3119(3)|3140(9) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/8e01398f12b5d84483867231d0d018cf.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction Oral history interview of Major General Anthony L. Jackson, March 7th, 2023, by Sean Visintainer, Head of Special Collections, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 43 Childhood and formative years Jackson describes his childhood, growing up in a military family that moved around the world, as well as his schooling, meals, and football recruitment. He also describes what life is like on military bases, and how he was fortunate to grow up at the time that he did, with opportunity provided by the sacrifices people made during the civil rights movement. civil rights movement ; Germany ; Hawaii ; Houston, Texas ; military base life ; military family ; Oakland, California 0 937 Father's military experience / Growing up in Houston and Fort Hood during the civil rights era Jackson speaks to his father's military experience and the challenges his father faced as a Black enlisted soldier, as well as his father's feelings on Jackson joining the Marine Corps. Jackson recalls the part of his childhood spent in Houston and nearby Fort Hood. He describes the segregated nature of the area, and participating in a sit-in at a local drug store. Jackson also recalls his sister's refusal to move to the back of the bus, fighting in high school and being picked on because of his accent, and speaks to his idea of equality vs. equity, using a metaphor for starting life with a backpack. enlisted Black soldier experience ; General Frank E. Petersen ; Houston, Texas ; racism 0 2290 Family deployments Jackson discusses his father's and brother's deployments, including why his brother was drafted to fight in Vietnam and his brother's medical evacuation to San Francisco. Butte College ; California State University Chico ; drafts and deferments ; Korean War ; Matt Jackson ; medical evacuations ; Vietnam War ; World War II 0 2515 Support systems for deployed soldiers Jackson discusses how support systems evolved in the armed services for deployed soldiers from his father experience to his own. Jackson discusses informal and formal structures and how military spouses play a role in supporting each other. Jackson also discusses the necessity of taking care of military families and how that impacts combat ability. Army ; Key Volunteer Program ; Marine Corps ; military spouses ; Navy ; Ombudsman Program 0 2987 Jackson's dating, marriage, and enlistment Jackson recounts meeting his wife, Sue, at San Jose State University and their courtship. Jackson describes interracial dating at the time and their family's reactions, and recall his ring-buying expedition which ended with a job. Jackson speaks to his work in the insurance industry, and decision to quit that job and enlist in the Marine Corps, and later to re-enlist. courtship ; enlistment ; interracial relationships ; Mike Anderson Agency ; Paul Barriger ; re-enlistment ; Sue Jackson ; U.S.S. Mayaguez ; Vietnam War 0 4116 Qualities of a successful Marine and a successful marriage Jackson describes the value of judgement and moral courage in making one a successful Marine. He discusses the value his older enlistment age gave him, and recruit training. Jackson also describes why he and Sue have a strong marriage. courage ; judgement ; marriage 0 4424 Working as the Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT [Marine Corps Forces Central Command] Jackson describes his work towards the end of his career, including as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT [Marine Corps Forces Central Command], where Jackson and his staff - especially civilian scientist Susan Alderson - were instrumental in getting MRAPs [mine resistant, ambush protected vehicles] to forces in Afghanistan and Iraq. MARCENT ; MRAPs ; Susan Alderson 0 5040 Working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, Africa Command [AFRICOM] Jackson recalls his work as the first Director of Military Operations and Logistics for the newly created United States Africa Command, and recalls in detail piracy around the Horn of Africa, and operations resulting from Somali pirates capturing of the U.S. cargo ship Maersk Alabama in 2009. AFRICOM ; Maersk Alabama ; piracy ; Somalia 0 5520 Returning to Camp Pendleton Jackson recounts a career fork where he could have gone back to Iraq to be a chief of staff, but instead ended up as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West). Jackson recounts his previous times at Camp Pendleton as a colonel and his family's decision to build a house in Fallbrook while Jackson was deployed to various places including Japan and Iraq. Jackson also recalls getting shelled while eating in a mess hall in Al Anbar Governate in Iraq. Camp Pendleton ; Fallbrook, California ; Marine Corps Installation West 0 6078 Jackson's relationship with CSUSM and work with California State Parks Jackson recalls returning to the area and getting acquainted with former university President Karen Haynes and joining the CSUSM Foundation's board. Jackson describes not desiring to work after his retirement from the military, and why he decided to go to work for California State Parks as their director. Jackson also discusses the similarity and differences between working in the military and parks, and discusses his decision to leave California State Parks. California State Parks ; CSUSM ; Jim Mickelson ; Karen Haynes 0 7203 Camp Pendleton and military bases Jackson discusses how Camp Pendleton specifically and military bases in general integrate with their surrounding communities. Jackson also discusses how federal aid and military projects have an effect on the surrounding community. Jackson recounts a negative experience with an invitation to speak at his high school alma mater where he was asked not to wear his uniform. base-community relationships ; Camp Pendleton ; Economic Recovery Act ; federal aid ; prejudice towards servicemen 0 7757 Family history Jackson shows a family history album that his wife, Sue, created, and discusses his family tree, his father's prize fighting career, his grandparents, siblings and extended family. Jackson recounts his mother's side of the family history and their ancestor Green Flake, who was an enslaved man who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Jackson speaks to the presence Green Flake has left in history. boxing ; Brigham Young ; enslaved peoples ; family history ; Green Flake ; Jackson family ; monuments ; Mormonism ; Salt Lake City 0 Moving image Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2011, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors.&#13 ; &#13 ; In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States Army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West).&#13 ; &#13 ; Jackson also discusses his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Sean Visintainer: Hello, this is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Major General Anthony Jackson for the California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History initiative. Today is March 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Major General Jackson, thank you for interviewing with us today. Anthony Jackson: Yeah, you're welcome. It's a, it's a privilege, kind of a, an honor, I guess I should say. Visintainer: These are, uh, the favorite part of my job that I get to do. So it's a real pleasure to have you. I forgot to mention that I will take some notes as we're interviewing, just so you know. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: So I can circle back to questions if I have them. Jackson: All right. Visintainer: Uh, things like that. And I wanted to just start off by asking you about your childhood and your formative years. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: Um, where were you born? Jackson: I was born at Madigan General Hospital in Fort Lewis, Washington. My father was a career soldier. So I was the fourth of his children. Uh, let's see. And being a military brat, you grow up in a lot of different places. But, uh, yeah, my dad, uh, he lied about his age and lied about his parentage to join the army shortly after Pearl Harbor. He met his, my mother in, May of [19]42, and married her in June of the same year. And then he went overseas to Europe for, for three years. In those days they went for the duration and came home to see my, uh, oldest sister was three years old when he got home. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And then, my older brother was born in [19]46, and then Matt, and then Don was born in [19]48, and then I was born in [19]49, and the Korean War broke out so my mother got a break. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And dad came home in [19]52, and Clay was born in [19]53. And then Dana was born in, uh, [19]56, and Tawnya was born in [19]57. I guess they're Irish twins. And that was the last of the kids. But if you notice, I was seven. The girls, Betty is the oldest, and Tanya the youngest. And then there's five boys, and I'm the top dead-center. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, and, uh, highly competitive sports-oriented family with the boys. And, uh, I guess I should say that the main thing in that growing up was, I was kind of taking notes and reviewing my own life a couple weeks ago ; that I started school in Germany, did kindergarten and first grade in Germany, and then my dad got stationed in Los Angeles. So I, uh, spent the second grade in Los Angeles. Then I spent the third grade-- He got sent someplace else, spent the third grade in Houston, Texas, his hometown. And then I spent four through the seventh grade in Colorado at two different schools. And then back to Texas for the eighth. And then in the middle of the ninth grade, a couple months into the ninth grade, we moved to California in 1963 as uh, and all my teachers in Texas were excited. I was going to such a great state for academics. And so I got here in October [19]63 as a ninth grader, as the brand new kid talking funny, dressing, funny and-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Fighting my way through the ninth grade. But, so I was fortunate to go to high school in Oakland. You know that they have three-year high school. So all my high school years, I was the first of my brothers and sisters. If you'll see those days, you'll see that they got ripped off and didn't go to one single high school, my older one. So I was the first one that kind of got planted at one place. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then, um, and that was really good because counselors and everybody started prepping me for college. Uh, Mrs. [Phyllis] Collier wouldn't let me go. She constantly -- she was my counselor -- constantly tried to get me into college prep classes, which she did, and make me take the SATs. You're not going to the state wrestling finals unless you take the SATs. And, uh, and that was a good experience. Yeah. Football became my, uh, my great love of sports, although played a lot of baseball, basketball, and all those kinds of things, wrestled in high school. But I got a football scholarship, offered several scholarships. I was lucky to be... I was born at exactly the right time. You know, the high, the civil rights movement, the, all the sacrifices of so many people during the Civil Rights Movement. When I graduated from high school in 1967, universities were looking for me in terms of race, in terms of athleticism, in terms of grades and SATs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I just happened to be born at that exact right juncture of the civil rights movement and who could get that young African American into the university. But I took a football scholarship, because I knew that was just based on pure athleticism or whatever. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: But it was still important. That was, the doors were opening wide, and I just happened to be the right age, born at right time as well. So that was my kind of through high school, uh, living in a lot of different places. Three years in Germany, four years in Colorado, off and on in Texas. And so, um, with mom and dad always providing a good solid family basis, and my mother was incredibly, like, I still look back and, you know here I was a high-ranking officer, [inaudible] and having two kids was expensive. Here my dad was a sergeant in the army, not an officer. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And he, and somehow she managed to put together great meals that we were all healthy and athletic and all that. And I still wonder how she did it. It was pretty-- she was pretty fantastic. She sewed our clothes and did all kinds of things that, you know sometimes I see the kids walking around here with patches and torn jeans and all that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That would've been so embarrassing for my family. &lt ; laughter&gt ; We were, we were poor, you know, and here these kids, I guess middle class kids that, that wanted to look like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: We would've been totally embarrassed. And mom would sew up those torn spots. Visintainer: You said she was, uh, she managed to make great meals for everybody in your family. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: I was curious, is there a, is there a, a particular meal or food that really evokes memories of your childhood? Jackson: I would say that we ate a lot of cooked cereal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, things like cornmeal and oatmeal and grits and yeah. And, um, it was because it was inexpensive and filled with nutrition. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I presume and it filled you up, you know? And so, uh, yeah. And you never turned your back on your plate. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Spaghetti and meatballs, you turn your back. One of those meatballs was gonna be missing you know. I mean, you never missed dinner. You never missed a meal. You were always home. You didn't wear a watch. You didn't have a watch, but you knew what dinnertime was. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And you knew, you knew that, uh, you know, to be home for dinner. Um, so my mother was a, just a great cook. And, uh, and I just remember that there was always a meal, uh, sometimes they were pretty creative. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Like, she would make syrup out of, uh, out of sugar and water, and she'd just melt it down. And that would be the syrup for your pancakes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, she didn't, orange juice, you know, if the can said "mix three cans of water with this," she'd probably mix four, four or five you know, stretching things out. She could do that. But, uh... Man, she-- Yeah, you would never turn down one of her meals. I would just say that, uh, everything she cooked was worthy of eating. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Except turnips. Visintainer: So that was the, that was the vegetable. That was-- Jackson: Yeah, that was the one. I mean I liked all the other green vegetables and stuff like that. But I never really, I was kind of amazed when I was being recruited. I was being recruited to play football at UC [University of California] Berkeley. And, um, they brought me into the Bear's Lair, Bear's Lair, their kind of campus restaurant. And they put a salad in front of me, a green salad with just lettuce-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I said, what &lt ; laughs&gt ; , what am I supposed to do with this? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Because I'd never had a lettuce salad that I could ever have recalled. So I had to watch, uh what the coaches who were recruiting me were doing with that 'cause our meals were substantial. And [inaudible] they were designed to fill you up, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: As a kid more than anything. Yeah. Visintainer: Did, uh, did you live on bases? Jackson: Yeah. We s-- you know, um... We, we, we lived on and off base. The military, it wasn't until my time in the military, the military used to be when you got stationed overseas, families had to move off the base housing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And it was in my times in, I think in the, uh, I want to say in the 1980s, that even though your, uh, spouse was overseas, you could stay on base, uh, at least in the Marine Corps. But we lived, um, sometimes we'd stay a while with relatives. But my mother was from Salt Lake City, Utah. And so we would sometimes stage there for a couple months before we went overseas or before we went to California or something like that. And, but, let's see, on-- in Germany, yeah, all that time was on military base. Colorado was four years on military base. Oakland, the first couple of years we lived on a military base, but my dad also kept a little home in Houston, Texas. And a couple of times we would move into that house. And uh, but when he retired from the Army when I was a senior in high school, he bought a home in Oakland. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: And that was my senior year so that was the first year I had moved up in the pecking order to get a bedroom by myself. 'Cause we usually lived in a three-bedroom house, one [bedroom] for mom and dad, one for the two girls and then the last one, was either for my older brother, if it was small. And we, like in Colorado the older brother had a room, and then the four younger ones slept in the basement. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: In bunk beds, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then finally when I was a senior, I got a room to myself for a few months when, you know, so, um--But we settled, the family settled in Oakland. And that's where my mother and father lived until they passed away. And, uh, they-- so it was, uh, the military bases are sort of protected in some ways from-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: A little bit different than society, you know. And then even as I went through my career, we stayed on bases sometimes. Not always. Visintainer: Uh, you said that the military bases are protected and different from society. Jackson: Yeah. Its-- They're, they're a little bit different-- Visintainer: Could you explain-- Jackson: Because first of all, I'll never forget, like when we were stationed in Hawaii, and my kids were like six months old when we got there, and two years old. So they were pretty young. But by the time they were there, we were there for a year or two. The military police knew where your kids belong. They knew what house. If they saw your kid running amuck someplace, "Yeah, maybe you had to go back to your yard," you know, because-- And so from that standpoint, and military police are a different sort of presence. They're more like the old neighborhood police officers. They're Marines essentially. And now they have some civilians that do that on military bases. The other thing is: all your neighbors, you're all in the same boat. You know, you're gonna say, although, you know, you have sometimes segregated housing based on rank. Um, um, and they [military bases] have their elementary school, they have their grocery stores. They have their equivalent of a Walmart or 7-Eleven. They have their gas stations, their fire department, the hospital. So you have a city, literally, or maybe even several towns, like as big as Camp Pendleton is, there are several schools in like the northern part. Once you get to high school, uh, and junior high, you go to San Clemente Public Schools. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: On the, on the eastern side, where I lived on the base, or southeastern side, you go to Fallbrook schools and on the south side of the base, you go to Ocean-- your kids go to Oceanside schools. So, uh, but, um, everybody's employed, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: There is a hierarchy, you know. If you're-- That is respected. Kids stop when they're hearing the national anthem is being played every morning at eight o'clock. If they're at the playground in the morning at eight o'clock, or when the flag's coming down in the evening at sunset, they'll stop. And you'll see kindergarteners stand in position of attention, while getting off the swings and the teeter-totter or whatever they call them now. And uh, it's kind of unique. Even my Great Dane used to know to stop and sit when the national anthem was being played, you know, just-- So it's a, and race is erased. Mostly. I mean we're all a product of American society. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Um, um, and it's more, I would say it's more of a meritocracy in terms of what you experience and how you experience, and your rank and your uniform automatically entitles you to X amount of respect. And everybody rec-- and that includes the general has to respect the most junior person, you know. And so uh, you're somewhat protected and there's rules that are, that are pretty strict, you know? And even the, even the nurses in the emergency room got to know my sons. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "Hey, Brian, what are you in here for this time?" You know. He's a skateboarder. Bashed his skull, skinned his face, you know, all of that stuff. And they know him. "Uh, okay. You're a Jackson kid. All right. Okay." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Do you, do you think that that experience was similar for your father? Jackson: No my dad, he lived a whole different world. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's one of the stage setters. When he, when he was 17 years old, trying to get into the military in 1942, Marines didn't accept Blacks into the military. It wasn't until a year later, you know. And he lived in Texas, you know, grew up in Texas. And in his youth and for a long time, even through a portion of my youth, Texas was one of the most violent places to be African American. I mean I had a, I had one of my Marines, a master gunnery sergeant, a very senior enlisted Marine, who was my senior enlisted advisor. And he's a Texan, African American. And his father was lynched in Texas. And so what's your, um-- You know, so there's, there's, there's only a generation or two that separates you from that kind of conduct. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And when my dad joined the Army, it was segregated. Matter of fact, he was stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City, 'cause that's where one of the last of the Buffalo Soldiers were stationed at, at, at, um, even at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century, the Buffalo Soldiers had been stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City. And so when they started bringing in African Americans into the US Army for World War II, that became a place where they trained. And so they didn't have a USO [United Service Organization], they had a USO for white soldiers, but they didn't even have a USO for Black soldiers. So in creating a USO for Black soldiers, now they recruited my mother, you know, to be one of the hostesses. And that's how they met. And within two weeks they were married. Geez. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they stayed married, you know. Um, so. And dad, I am sure when I see, you know, I think he was extraordinarily smart, extraordinarily clever. And you had to be more clever to survive, I think, in those days, because there were a lot of racial booby traps that you could walk into. And I think that, um, I don't know all of the history of that, but he should have been, with the number of years he spent in, 24 years, he should have been a higher rank in most circumstances. And I won't recall what the family's story is as to why, but I have pictures of him at a higher rank. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then he retired at another rank, lowered, 10 years later, you know. So he was, so there was an incident that occurred, I think, with my older brother, Matt. And he was, an officer had bumped him on his bicycle and knocked him to the ground and knocked a tooth out, and when my dad was called to the scene, this is more family lore, the officer used the N-word in referring to my, my brother. And the officer was white, and my dad reflexively hit him. And he was a master sergeant at the time. And, uh, this was when we lived in Germany. And my dad was a prize fighter too. He was really good. At one time he was, uh, rated in the world and he was an alternate on the 1948 Olympic team as a light heavyweight. And, um, and so, uh... But the army liked him enough to keep him, but they had to do something. And so he became reduced in rank by one and then permanently put in that rank. Jackson: And he stayed in that rank for another, I want to say twelve years, which is not normal. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Even today or yesteryear, that wouldn't have been normal. So they liked him, but they [inaudible]. So he paid a price that I could-- I didn't pay. And when I joined the Marine Corps, I'll never forget what him saying, "Why did you want to join that redneck outfit?" Because remember, in [19]42, they wouldn't take, they took a lot of, and it was [19]43, they had their first [Black] officer, they had their first [Black] pilot in about 1950, first general African American in 1981, Frank Petersen. So it's uh, it was kind of a, you know, my, my my answer to him was, if not me, who? Somebody has to be. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I was not the first but I was one of the few at the time that came in. And General Petersen leading the way, of course. But yeah, dad had a different life. Mom had a different life. She, I mean education, that was the key difference. You know, is that I was fortunate my mother and father were both high school grads and both of them believed in the power of education. So that was, I think it was really vital to the development of all of us. And then coming to California, which when I came here, it was the number one best school system, public school system in the nation. And I don't know-- If I understand, it doesn't rank very high now, but when I came here, the, you know, from the high school to the community colleges, to the state colleges and state universities, uh, it couldn't be better. So another lucky break for Tony Jackson. Visintainer: Yeah. Um, you mentioned your dad grew up in Texas. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And he had kept a house there for quite a while. Jackson: Right. Visintainer: Was he particularly, uh, happy when he got stationed in Houston? Jackson: You know, that's something that I would've been too young. He was, he wasn't stationed in Houston. He was stationed in another-- at, uh, Fort Hood, which is outside [Houston]. I don't think that-- he never expressed that. And I was too young if he, if he emoted it to my mother, you know? That was, that would've been grown-up talk back in those days. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But Houston was segregated. It was, the schools were segregated. It was kind of ironic because I'd lived on army bases. I'd done most of my-- Up until the time we moved to Texas, when I was in the third grade, I did kindergarten, first grade in Germany at integrated school, at the military school on base. And then we came out to California. But that was a short stay. But I did second grade in integrated schools. Then all of a sudden, in third grade, I'm in this town and the part of town where dad had a house, everybody's Black, the policeman's Black, the pharm is Black, the teachers and principals, they're all Black. And that was the first, you know, uh, 1958. And, uh, it was, uh, it was very interesting. Corporal punishment. That's the first time I met that one too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Where the teachers could paddle you? Yeah. You, they, they, they still did that. I remember getting my hand paddled because my writing was so poor. Um, but, um... So we moved there [Houston] because he did not want us probably to live in the part of Texas where that base was, and close to relatives. He had a, uh, his, his half-sister lived there, the aunt that helped raise him lived in Houston. And so, and his father lived in Houston. And so, uh, we lived there just a half mile or so from his sister and my aunt, Juanita. And so, uh... And he never gave any indication that he wanted, um, wanted to live there permanently in Houston. You know, I mean, the movie theaters, in those days, you had to sit in the balcony, even the beaches were s-- you know, they had a rope. This was for white people. This was for Black people. Don't cross the rope. The drinking. I remember as a 13 year-old doing a sit-in, in the eighth grade, when we moved back there the second time, the civil rights movement was pretty churned up. And young people, high school, college were doing sit-ins at, uh, at the drug stores that didn't allow you to sit at the soda fountains. You might be able to buy something there, but don't sit down at the counter. And I remember myself from a couple of my eighth and ninth grade buddies, we decided, we were waiting for a bus, and we wanted a RC Cola and a moon pie. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And we walked into the local drugstore to buy 'em, and we decided we were gonna sit at the lunch counter, like all these kids were doing around the nation. So we did our little sit-in, and they, this big old guy comes out from somewhere in the warehouse, and he's pounding on a billy club, like, "Hmm, what are you kids doing?" But he didn't say anything to us, just the, the waitress behind the counter. She was very nervous trying to get us to get up. And we looked over and saw him and just waved. And then our bus came and we walked out. But it was our little, that was our little act of defiance. And every now and then, you'd have to say if not me who? And so we sat at a lunch counter for a while, you know. Visintainer: So I had seen it in another interview. You'd referenced this, uh, lunch counter sit-in. Uh, didn't go into detail. And so I wanted to ask you a few questions about it. So it was, uh, it was totally spontaneous? You were-- Jackson: Yeah. It was spontaneous. We, it was, it was in the news. People were doing it in Virginia, in Memphis, and, you know, and it was a, you knew there was a kind of a hazard you could end up, you know, uh... in jail or something, you know. But we just, I think there's been a couple of times where I've been involved in civil rights protests, but where you just have to do something, you know. I mean, I mean, you just-- I watched my older sister, probably one of the greatest acts of defiance that I've ever seen: my older sister, Betty, she's 80 years old yesterday, and she's just as tough as she was when she was. But I was riding a bus with her in Houston, and this was in the fifties too, so it had to be about [19]58. And we were riding across town, heading home, and we, we sat right in front of the bus. Whether she was thinking, you know... You got to, she's, she's a pretty feisty little-- and then she would've only been about 13 or 14, and I would've been third grade. And, so we sat in the front of the bus, and the bus driver stopped, and the bus was crowded, and he wanted-- bus driver stopped and came out, told her she had to get up, go back of the bus and let these white people sit down. And I'm like, "Hmm." I'm only nine years old. So I'm like, hmm, this big old guy is. And then she refused to move. And, um... And then he balled up his fist and he threatened her, and she refused to move. And, uh, and she just sat there, and then he had to go drive that bus, and he left her alone the rest of the ride. She never budged. Visintainer: That's very courageous. Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the way she is. And so you, you know, I've seen, and, you know you grew up with those pictures on tv, the Birmingham and all that stuff, and Little Rock and, bombings and kids with-- and so you knew that there was this tension. But like I tell people, and I gave a speech the other day for Black History. I was always a person that took literally the words of the, the, the preamble to the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Gettysburg Address. And I remember I had to memorize the preamble in the Gettysburg Address and the first couple of paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence when I was in segregated schools in Houston, Texas, in the ninth grade. And I took those words literally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I looked at my dad's service, and he had obviously paid a, you know, paid for his citizenship, wearing that uniform for 24 years. And so I always have had the feeling and, uh, that, "Hey, if you're, if you're better than me, that means you can whip me in the football field or wrestling, or you can beat me on the spelling bee or the math bee or something like that. But you don't automatically get that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That's not an automatic. I walk through the door like you walk through the door, and then we'll see how it goes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, and I guess that's, I even, uh, even in my own career, I kept that same kind of attitude. And you know, and I've got deep roots that in terms of where my family comes from, especially on my mother's side. My wife does these great genealogies. And, I actually book brought the book that she has kind of put together. Rather than just a photo album, she puts together genealogical albums, and they're kind of cool. Visintainer: Nice. Jackson: I'll show you at some point if you want to see it. Visintainer: Yeah, I'd love to. Jackson: Yeah. But, so, but, you know. One of the things I do tell people, sometimes younger people is that, we like to say that we're all born equal. And that's a kind of an idealistic sort of thing. But if your mother was a drug addict and you were born addicted, you're not the same as the guy who's like, my kids, you know, their dad was already an officer, and already was financially stable, their mother was healthy, a registered dietician, and what she did during her pregnancy is very different than what this-- And so the kids start out equal in terms of under whatever your religion is, under your god's eye, maybe they're equal, but in terms of what the world's offering 'em right now, real different. Okay. And so things like race-- and so I say, "Everybody's born with a backpack, and in that backpack is X amount of rocks." And it's a little bit different, what the weight is at birth. Now, as you go through life, you can take out a rock or you can add a rock. Some of 'em are based on choices of, of your own choice. And some of 'em are based on family choices or just accidents. And race is one of those things that can either be, um, a rock, a heavy rock in your pack. Or it can lighten your load. And that's one of the ironic things about it is for my dad, it was probably a heavier rock, but for me, it lightened the load. It might have actually lightened the load, you know? And so as we-- As you-- And so as a result of that, his carrying a heavy rock and me having much lighter load, I owe him something. But more than that, I owe the next generation something too for that. And, you know, does that make sense? Visintainer: Yeah, that's a wonderful analogy. And something I've never heard phrased that way. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I think it's, it's uh, befitting somebody who was in the military to talk about weight and backpacks. Jackson: Yeah, right, yeah. I guess, so. Visintainer: Did you come up with the analogy when you were in the military,?Jackson: Yeah. Yeah, probably. I did. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. I was in you know, it is, uh, it's -- life is like that. Now, and you, and a lot of times, and once you get to be a certain age, and I was telling this young man that I met, he was very bold. He was in the high school, junior ROTC [Reserve Officers Training Corps] at an event a month or so ago, and he walks right up to me having, I was introduced as a general. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And here's this, you know, maybe 14 year-old kid. He was in the ninth grade. And I said, "You know what?" I said, uh, I asked him about his grades and all that. I said kind of, "You're lightening your load. You're an honor student. You wear that uniform well. You're doing athletics, keep doing that. Everything you do, it counts from the ninth grade on. I mean, that's when you're getting your GPA counts, you getting your PSATs, you're doing all these kinds of things that people are gonna judge your next opportunity on -- post high school." And says, "So, you young man are lightening your load, you know, so keep it going." Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Yeah. So it is kind of a, yeah. I guess it's military speak. Can't help it. Visintainer: Yeah. Um, I just had one follow up question about, uh, about your drugstore sit-in. Well, actually, I guess I had a couple. What was the drugstore? Jackson: You know, I'm trying to remember the, because I don't want to-- we had a lot of Walgreens in that part of the country. So I think it was Walgreens at the time, that, uh, it was right at our bus stop. And, uh, yeah. Then they, they became quite a target for students, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's a, nowadays they don't even have the soda fountains in the drugstore like they did in those days, you know? But yeah, I'm pretty, I'm about 90% sure it was Walgreens. Because number one, because I don't remember any other of the drug stores that were there. And it was, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But-- Visintainer: Did, uh, did you ever tell your parents? Jackson: Yeah. Well, at that time, dad was someplace else. I think dad was stationed in close to the North Pole in Greenland. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Yeah. And so we were in Houston for that stay. And, um... And I probably told my mother. When I was that [inaudible] age... I really, it was hard for me to imagine living beyond eighteen. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We lived in Houston. You know, we lived-- we were bused to school past the white high school and junior high into what you might call the ghetto. Fifth Ward in Houston. And it was nicknamed "Bloody Fifth" for good reason, because somebody was getting killed kind of routinely. It was a very violent part of Houston, Texas. And, uh, my junior high and eighth and ninth grade was in Fifth Ward. And my older brothers and sister, they went to Phyllis Wheatley [High School]. I went to E.O. Smith [Junior High] which was named after a African American poet. And, I was probably in a fight, like... I mean, here I was this guy that didn't have an accent. And I was marked, even my teacher, I remember my English teacher mocking my, uh, "trying to talk like a Kennedy," she told me. She told the whole class, 'cause I was reading something and she stopped me. And she, "What are you trying to talk like a Kennedy?" I said, "This is the way we talk in my family." I didn't know this was any different, but yeah, coming to the south, you're talking different and you don't have their accent. And, uh, and so I was kind of a prime target for a while. And yeah. And fortunately I played football and you know, and I had two big bad older brothers. And so, but it was like-- you know, you had to fight. And then right in the middle of ninth grade, I moved to Oakland. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Which hardly is just that much better. But that was only two fights. So that was quick and easy. And fortunately we were all trained to box and stuff like that, so it turned out all right. But really when I was fourteen, fifteen, I thought eighteen would be, "Yeah. Eighteen's about right." You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so you, you, you were already, you know, so when I say I'm seventy-three, you know, I'm a happy camper. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: Exceeded expectations. Yeah. Visintainer: Um, I was curious about when your, when your father was deployed, you said he was deployed to Korea and was he deployed in World War II? Jackson: He was in World War II, but I was not even born, and so the war, he wasn't deployed. He had seven kids by the time Vietnam, so the Army wouldn't send him. You know, that would've been quite a burden. So he did not, well, he served during the Vietnam War in the early stages, he never deployed to Vietnam. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: The family member that got deployed to Vietnam was my older brother, Matt. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: He was, he was drafted. Uh, and yeah, the way it worked out was that my older sister had graduated from high school. I ended up being the first one to graduate from college, just 'cause my older sister, it wasn't the norm or the expectation. And she had gotten married and had a kid, so, and she's probably as smart or smarter than every one of us. And then Matt, my older brother, there wasn't the financials in the family and he had gone to four. Different. High schools. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Every year. And so, although he's a better athlete than I ever was, he was never recognized in one spot, scouted out by universities or anything. So he ended up going to Chico State [California State University, Chico] a year later on an English literature scholarship. Um, and because he was a year behind his peers, he didn't have the college credits necessary to avoid the draft. And so he got drafted. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And then he goes in the army, goes to Vietnam and gets really some disease and maybe even Agent Orange. Uh, he-- affected him very badly over there. And so he was medically evacuated from Vietnam to San Francisco. There was a big army hospital in San Francisco and eventually discharged, got his GI bill, went back to college, got his B.A., Got his master's degree, and became a dean of students up at Butte [California] Community College. So he lived a really good life. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Great kids, two outstanding kids. And then a terrific wife, Billie. Billie passed away a couple years ago, but she's just been selected, gonna have a big induction ceremony through the Chico State Hall of Fame. And so she, and here's his daughter is the CEO, Joy is the CEO. It's not the GRE but there's another graduate record thing, you know, and so Matt did well, so. Don, my older brother, short time in the Air Force, booted him out for whatever he did wrong, you know, but I'm the only one that made it a career [inaudible]. So, uh, um, yeah. But, but mom was always that glue. Just like my wife Sue is the glue for my boys and who did most of the child raising. I had this big strong boxer-soldier dad that I really looked up to and was my lifetime hero. But mom was actually doing the hard work. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And probably the same thing in my family in terms of, you know, dad's a Marine and a officer and doing his thing and going away and, and, but the military spouses who get left behind, they do a lot of the child raising, set the standards. And so when people say thank you for your service, they really ought to be talking to the spouses. Visintainer: Well, and that's something I was kind of curious about in that, when, when somebody's deployed, and if there's, I guess this is kind of a complicated question that I'm formulating as I go along, so I apologize if it gets a little jumbled, but when somebody's deployed, like in your father's time, um, were there support services involved with the Army to help out, to help out the parents that were staying and raising children? Or were they more informal in nature? Jackson: They were very, very, very informal. Not, and I, quite frankly, I can't-- I can't say I have memories of during my father and mother's time that they had the support services which are ingrained in the services now. And even when I came in, to be honest, in [19]75, the military's attitude, the Marine Corps' attitude was probably, well if the, if the Marine Corps wanted you to have a, wanted you to have a spouse they'd have put her in your, in your sea bag when they issued you the gear. Was that in there? Okay. And that was probably the attitude. It wasn't until the eighties that the Navy and the Marine Corps, and I'm not quite sure when the Army, but I'm sure about the same time with them, we started putting together really substantial programs. And first it, it revolved around volunteers and-- but organized in what they call the Key Volunteer Program. And in the Navy it was the Ombudsman Program. And, and, and that, and that was in the eighties. And in, in the, in the, um, 2000s, as we were getting more involved in the Middle East, they actually started hiring family counselors, Members that take, they literally took the place, for each battalion, they would have professional kind of family counselors. And so, and they still had the Key Volunteers, but then they paid people and they had, uh, it was presumed prior to that, that the wives, an officer's wife, the senior officer's wife, would take the lead whether she was-- wanted to or not. It was, it was presumed that that would happen or the senior enlisted wife would team up with her and they would take care of all the younger ones and all that. And there were just some women who were not, you know, not that social or did not want to do that, or were-- wasn't in their personality. So there was a lot. When I was a young commanding officer, a company, I knew if I was over in the Far East in Japan or something and with my whole company and Corporal Ramos' wife was about ready to have a baby here at Camp Pendleton I'd call my wife, buy some flowers for Corporal Ramos' wife, put his name on 'em and take 'em over to the base hospital and make sure she knows that he's thinking about her. And my wife was willing to do that, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so, and I would willingly pay for it out of my pocket too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Uh, but it, it, it's, it is now much more formal and it's expected and it's expected in the military, and now you have a lot of, we probably have more daycare centers per capita than the, than regular society, you know? There's, I forget, there's a half a dozen or more daycare centers on Camp Pendleton. Miramar has theirs all the bases and have the childcare centers. And so I think that there's much more, the military has taken a, uh, realize happy wife, happy spouse. You're more likely to have a career, [inaudible] soldier, sailor, marine. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You're taking care of the family too. Visintainer: It makes sense in terms of retention and morale and all of that, yeah. Jackson: All of that. You know, one of the things I found is it translates in many ways to combat power. You know that no matter what happens to you, that your family's gonna be taken care of and you're gonna be taken care of. And so that's, that gives you strength, that gives every marine, every soldier, every sailor, that kind of strength. You know that I saw in other foreign armies that you got wounded and you're not killed you, you [shakes head]. So their soldiers weren't as aggressive. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Uh, they didn't have the same initiative to, you know, and it is not because they were less, you know, a man or less brave. It's just that they had that, well, there's no VA [Veteran's Administration], there's no, there's no widow's pension. There's no, you know. And so he's gotta be a little bit more careful, you know? So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It does equate to the combat power. Visintainer: I's a, it's a rock in your pack perhaps. Jackson: Yeah. In terms of success for the mission that you're about ready to accomplish. Visintainer: Yeah. Okay. Um, excuse me, you mentioned the Key Volunteer Program and so I, so I understand like the, you know, the purpose of a counselor or the purpose of a daycare-- Jackson: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: But I was curious as to what the Key Volunteer Program, like what their purpose was, what types of activities they undertook, and as a support-- Jackson: I, I think the main focus was to make sure if the families had a need, that it was taken care of while the service member was overseas. And a lot of times the wives would organize parties and picnics for the kids and, uh, things like that. Or they would exchange phone numbers so that you knew who to call in case of, you know, there's a rattlesnake in the garage the day after your husband left, you know, the car broke down the day after your husband left. Um, uh, so, but the whole idea of the Key Volunteer Program was to make sure that the families knew where to go when they needed support, when the spouse was deployed overseas. Uh, and, uh, and they were literally volunteer in the most part. In the early days, you didn't get guys, it was mostly the wives, but now we have more you know, the, the... The military member may be the, the, the, the, the woman and the man is now the spouse that needs help when-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you. And so that was the whole point of the, um, the Key Volunteer Program: to bring them together, they knew there was a tight-knit family that would help take care of-- It was kind of like, uh, East Battalion had its own village, you know? And the village was designed to take care of, of all of the people that were left behind. Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So yeah, Visintainer: That's, that's pretty interesting. I'd never, never heard of this, uh, program before. Jackson: Yeah. It's a, it's a really good program. They professionalized the lead person at the battalion in about two thousand and three. A battalion's about a thousand Marines. Like on Camp Pendleton you have battalions and squadrons. Squadrons is the aviation equivalent of a battalion. And they would all have a senior lady, and they put, they actually had paid people do that. I think they're maybe toning that down a little bit with no war, but they still have the program. Uh, um, and, uh, yeah. Visintainer: Excuse me. Um, let's talk about how you decided to enlist. So I understand you were, you were graduated with a master's [degree] at this point. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: You were working and-- Jackson: Well, let's see. I got married. Sue and I got married. We met at San Jose State [University]. Um, I had always aspired to be an officer. I thought I'd join the Army when I-- I was in ROTC just for a short while, at San Jose State in Army ROTC. And, it didn't sit well with all the other things that I was doing. But I still aspired to be an officer. Okay. I met my wife in an anatomy and physiology class in Spring of 1969. And, um, and it was a night class, so I would just walk her back to her sorority and I'd go down the street to my dorm. It was just a matter of safety and coming out of class after nine o'clock in an urban environment. And, and that was it. We didn't date or anything. I would just escort her. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, football player escorting pretty sorority girl home. And she's only two blocks from, or three blocks from where I was staying in the dorm. But the next fall, we were on campus and I met her on campus, just kind of bumped into each other again, not thinking much of that previous spring. And she said she had moved outta the sorority house, "come on over." So, mm-- you know, I was a little reluctant, you know, uh, blonde blue-eyed. And those days I wasn't dating blonde, blue-eyed gals. So I recruited a couple more football players, Black, to come over and visit her and her friends, just so it would be-- And uh, son of a gun if the three football players and her three roommates all left and went to a party! So there we were, you know, and, uh, we studied together and then we got to start getting together on Thursday nights just to study. My grades shot up which was really good. And she was a home ec[onomics] major, and so she'd experiment with foods with me and being a football player, I could take all the calories she could pump out, you know. So I'd get an extra meal every day, &lt ; laughs&gt ; kind of, every Thursday, when we'd get together. And then finally by the end of that semester, or close to it, I said, "Are we an item?" You know? And we decided that we were an item. So 1970 rolls around, and we, we decide to get permission from her side of the family. My side of the family reluctantly accepted the interracial dating, my dad being a Texan, that, that, you know, he had bad memories of that stuff. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And, uh, my mother was, she loved everybody no matter what. But her [Sue's] parents weren't real happy. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So the explosion went off and which actually drove us tighter together. We just wanted to date openly. Um, I often say that we had gone to see the movie, Guess Who's Coming To Dinner with Sidney Poitier... And, uh. And when her parents found out about it, and I suddenly realized I was not Sidney Poitier. It wasn't gonna work out. But that sort of drove us together. And within, uh, four or five months, I just asked her to marry me. And, uh, because her family disowned her for the very fact that we'd gotten-- we were wanting to date. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they didn't want her to date. And I had never told her I loved her. Visintainer: Yeah. Wow. Jackson: We just wanted to date openly. And so... We uh, as the, as the, her world crowded in on her to try to break us up, it forced us together and me to be more defensive of her. And her-- she stood her ground. And uh, I once told my mother, "Well I don't know what love is, but I know what sacrifice is, and she has opted to date me," as opposed to a family that-- I mean, she's 21 years-old, you don't just give up your family. Her family gave up her, you know, and so, and that was just her mother and father by the way, not cousins or grandparents. Um, uh, and so. Uh, we got married. I asked her at Thanksgiving in 1970, "Hon, will you marry me?" You know, and she said, "When?" I had no idea when. I said, "semester break!" Jackson: It was my senior year. She was in grad school. And, uh, so I didn't have a job, but I'd just played my last football game the previous Saturday. And so the scholarship was gonna run out at the end of, uh, at graduation. So I was on time, Four years you know, because four years scholarship, you know, and, uh, so, uh... I s--, but I didn't have any rings or anything. So I go, um, but there was one alum, and this is another reason why I will have to reach back. There was one alum, Paul Barracker, little Jewish guy. He owned, I thought he only owned one jewelry store. He ended up owning four. But this little guy. And I told her [Sue], I asked her on Thanksgiving to marry me. And I said -- when we get back, we were visiting her sister in Sacramento -- "When we get back to San Jose, we'll go to Paul's Jewelers, downtown San Jose, and we'll get rings." Now, I didn't have a nickel. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That's the ironic self-confident naive, uh, kid I was, I guess. And so Monday rolls around and we go down to Paul's, which is just, you could walk off campus, to Paul's-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And Paul's in the store. It's one of these stores that, you know, straight in downtown, it's jewelry on this side, jewelry on that side, just walk back to the counter. Very narrow store. Paul's in the back and he sees me come and I, you know, he was an alum who would come to football practice, sometimes fly to the games on the same plane as the team. So that's how I knew him. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: As this alum who supported football, not as a friend. I mean, he was old enough to be obviously my dad or, or, or maybe even older than that. And Paul comes running out, I mean, little bitty arms. I could wrap my hand around his bicep, close my fingers. Right. And he's in a football stance. "Tony so good to see you!" "Paul, hold it!" He's really enthusiastic. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Old European kind of an accent. And, uh, he-- I said, "Paul, hold it. I want you to meet my fiancé, Sue." And he said, "Oh, so pleased to meet you, Sue!" Does this double handshake. I'll never forget this. And then he goes, I said, "Well, what are you doing?" I said, "Paul, I came to buy, uh, our wedding rings and engagement ring." He says, "Oh, good! Good, good, good!" I said, "But Paul, I don't have any money, so if you hire me, I'll start to work." He says, "Okay! Okay, okay. You stop bothering me. Go back, talk to my secretary, fill out the application. You can come to work. Sue, you can buy anything in the store." So I got, I got a job selling jewelry through, through grad school, paid for those rings. I come to find out just a few years ago that Sue gave him a $25 down payment or something, but she just told me that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But I worked for Paul. He taught me all about sapphires and all the diamonds and his jeweler, the guy who made some of the jewelry, he would teach me. He was from France. And he would, we had, I'd give him some English lessons, and now he liked my accent because it was flat. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, it didn't come with a New York or a twang or anything like that, accent. And so we exchanged a little bit of, he would teach me about clarity and diamonds, and I would clarify some words he didn't understand. Okay. But I did that for about a year and a half. And I also, uh, coached at a junior college -- football -- and realized that I didn't want to be a football coach. But I had finished my master's degree, started my PhD at UC [University of California] Santa Cruz in history. And just, and I was teaching a class -- History of Third World Peoples -- as a grad student. And I just said, "Stop. I gotta, I gotta get on with life." Sue was a high school teacher. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I actually went to work for an insurance company. So time is marching on. In the back of my mind, I still want to be a military officer. I still, war is going on in Vietnam, and I'm sitting here now, I'm in the insurance business. I'm making a lot of money. We bought a house in what became Silicon Valley. I can't even afford that house now. But bought a house. She got tenured. I was making a lot of money in the insurance business. My boss was really glad that I decided, you know, again, I was offered several jobs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, when I finally decided to work, he tried to recruit me right outta college. And my, before I-- Right when Sue and I got married, he tried to get me to go to work for him at his insurance company, and I'd turned it down, but now here I was a year or two later and I was working for him and he was really good. It was like having somebody, being in a master's degree class, the Michael Anderson Agency with Penn Mutual Life. And this guy, Mike Anderson, was just a terrific teacher and mentor. And, and so I got off to fast start under his wing in insurance, and I was the consummate kind of, you know, I'd just been the captain of the football team, and all that [inaudible]. I'd been in San Jose for five years and all that stuff. So I knew a lot of people. And so I could contact them. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But one day I was with a bunch of clients in, uh, in, uh, Candlestick Park, the old Giants, San Francisco Giants watching the Giants and Dodgers play in May of 1975. And across the screen, the-- from days on end, you saw pictures in the news of Marines and soldiers evacuating people from Saigon [now Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam] and helicopter, dramatic, people holding onto the rails of helicopters trying to get out as the North Vietnamese took over the country. And the same thing was happening in Camb-- Cambodia, and Phnom Penh. And so, uh, I... And an American ship, the U.S.S Mayaguez had been captured by the Khmer Rouge, a communist group, and we didn't know where the sailors were from that ship. And across the screen at the ballgame, kind of the old ticker tape kind of thing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: "US Marines, recapture the Mayaguez." Said the thing. And I'm sitting here with hotdogs and beer and entertaining clients at a game. So the next day I put on my suit and I went to a recruiter. Didn't tell my wife. He goes, "Hey, you go to college?" And I said, yeah. And he said, "Well, you need to go see the officer selection offer in Alameda." So I took all my tests, signed up all in one day, came home and told her. I remember the guy, he goes, "Do, you wanna, you want me to come home? I got a great movie we can show your wife. About what you're about ready to experience." I said, "You don't want me in my house tonight," &lt ; laughter&gt ; , "When I tell her what I just did." So I became private Anthony Jackson for a while before I went off OCS [Officer Candidate School]. But I was twenty-six, I was running out of time, and these guys were serving overseas, risking their lives. And here I had done nothing to really validate what I thought. And my idealistic view was to validate my citizenship and ensure that you could never deny me. As my father did, as my little brother did. So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I still promised my wife it would only be for three years. Said, "Three honey. That's it." I actually got out and went into the reserves for about a year in keeping that three-year promise, which really, I was kind of sliding. I didn't realize I was gonna, eh long-- I found that the Marine Corps was my calling. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And even I got out, went to work, another high-paying job. Got, they gave me a brand new car with Kaiser Aluminum &amp ; Chemical, and sent me to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. But I just couldn't believe I'd be working. Uh, and I, so I joined a reserves unit to stay in touch, and then I realized that I started living for that reserve weekend. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And not what I was doing with Kaiser and, uh, and money wasn't important to me. And so I asked the Marine Corps to take me back, and the rest is kind of history at [inaudible] point. Visintainer: Had you ever expressed to Sue before you, uh, before you enlisted, that you had this idea? Jackson: Yeah, she knew that. She knew that that was kind of in my bones, but I really wanted-- I, in the first couple years with that flare-up in her family over our marriage, I wanted to make sure we had a solid marriage. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Before I all of the sudden ran off and left her, you know. I really did. I think that was why I delayed for so long, uh, was, you know, that was a pretty big sacrifice on her part. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And it was never healed back up. I never, I had never met my-- I met my mother-in-law, but I never did meet my father-in-law. Although we did have a civil conversation on the phone one time. But that was the only time I even talked to him. And that was in like 1978. So, um, and then he passed away. As if-- it was ironic because he and I should have been really good friends. We're, you know, he's a naval officer. He was a World War II destroyer escort. And he had, he'd graduated from UC Berkeley, their ROTC program. He was down here in San Diego when Pearl Harbor was attacked, on his reserve duty and mobilized right away. And they sailed into Pearl Harbor just the week after. You know, he was still smoldering. Things were still, they were still trying to find guys that were in capsized ships that were still alive. And, um, and he kept a diary. And, a part of that time, he had great distinguished service during World War II, became the CO [Commanding Officer] of a ship. He was a junior ensign when Pearl Harbor happened, but he had his own ship by the time the war ended. And, uh, and then he retired as a Navy-- captain in the Navy, in the reserves, started his own business in, uh, he became a plumbing contractor, not a-- the guy that supplies all the contractors with all their gear. And during the boom years of growth in the Bay Area and made millions. And of course my wife probably didn't know how many millions he made, but she was disinherited. And that was, that was, uh, her sister got it all when he passed away. And that's probably how we found out. But, um, and so, yeah. She's, she's tough. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, and, and held her ground and, uh, and it has been a source of strength and you don't really recognize all those things. She is motivating. She won't take credit, but she has been a prime motivating factor in my life. Um, uh, I mean she has her own, she has her own opinions, her own thoughts, et cetera. But, you know, you want to, you want to do well for those who believe in you kind of a deal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So you know, I've always wanted, I mean, I've taken great risk at times without thinking about that, but I think one of the things that's always in the back of my mind is that, you know, I do owe this woman something. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so don't screw it up, buddy. But that means certainly you have to be a person of strength, especially if you're in an organization like the Marine Corps. You know, you're not a yes person. I mean, you can't be a yes person. I mean, you, you, you, you have to gauge when you should engage and you have to engage when you should just, maybe just shut up, but be willing to take on the right fights, you know? And sometimes you win 'em, sometimes you lose 'em, but don't back down until it's time to back down and then have the judgment to know when it's time to back down, you know. So it's kind of a give and take thing, because sometimes you're the boss and sometimes you're the junior guy that has to execute the plan. Visintainer: And having that judgment, I think is really difficult when you're, uh, so invested in something. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I imagine if you're in the Marine Corps and you're in a situation where you need to have that judgment, you're very invested in it. Jackson: Yeah. And, uh, and I've been on those sides of that, you know. I've lost an argument and then had to be the presenter, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, you're the guy that, uh, "Wait a minute! I was the only one in the room that objected." "Yeah. But you're, you're the communicator. You're gonna communicate it up the chain, right?" "Wait a minute, I'm-- there were twelve guys that agreed with you, sir." "Yeah, Tony, but you were the most articulate, you're presenting it! Just make sure you win!" Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "When you present it up the chain, you know?" So I've been on that side of the coin. And, you know, you-- And the other thing is, I did appreciate the Marine Corps. That the Marine Corps appreciates strength and not weakness, not, you know, it appreciates the fact that you will pick the right time and place. You know, you don't want to embarrass the boss, but will you challenge him? And so you have to have that combination of moral courage and judgment and communication skills to win over when it's not, it may not be a smooth subject. Okay? I think that is both been an asset and may have cost me a little bit of something at some point, but not nothing that-- I mean, my career exceeded my expectations. I'm not a Naval Academy guy. I'm not an ROTC guy. I didn't come out as a 21 year-old. I came in as second oldest guy in my OCS platoon. There was one other army guy that was a former soldier that was older than me, but I was, I was already as a-- the same age as my first bosses, my first commanding officers when I was a second lieutenant. And so I was always kind of -- agewise -- I think that was an edge, actually, that lightened my load because I had a sense of humor and I wasn't afraid of the process. I wasn't afraid of the process. Yeah. Because you had to. Yeah. When you go to OCS or recruit training, like down here in San Diego, you just have to drop who you are. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: For that twelve weeks. You gotta just drop who you are and accept that you're gonna be a mold. You get to be who you are once you get out of that process, you know, of them breaking you down and building you back up. So I think my age was actually a benefit. Because of my body was still, uh, easily willed into Marine Corps shape. So, yeah. And having a dad who was a sergeant in the army probably helped me a lot too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I already knew how to make a military bed, you know, to inspection standards. We did that before we went to Sunday school. We got inspected. You know, it's really funny about not remembering this as a kid. You're standing in front of your bunk just like I did at OCS, and your dad's inspecting the shine on your shoes and the crease in your trousers and stuff like that, you know. And here you are, you're ten, you're ten years old, and dad's throwing a quarter on the bed to see if it bounces. The bed's that tight. The bed has to be tight enough of that coin to bounce up, you know? So Yeah. We got those inspections on Sundays. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Boys lined up. Uh, yeah. But, uh, yeah. So, yeah. So it's been what? Sue and I have been married, yeah, we just celebrated our 52nd [wedding anniversary], you know-- Visintainer: Congratulations. Jackson: Whew. Yeah. That's, uh, it's been, it's been a road. It's been a good road. 'Cause we, you know, we, we, we have a lot of things. I tell her that the reason why we're a successful marriage is because we have absolutely nothing in common. You know? I'm a hunter and she's a doggone near herbivore. You know, not quite, but you know, uh, yeah. And we, we, we have a lot of, a lot of differences, which make it kind of good because she has her leans, and I have my leans, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. It gives you space to be your own person and you can come together around commonalities. Jackson: Right, right. And so, and then we'll come together for like a trip to the Sierras [Sierra Nevada mountain range]. Well I'll do fishing, and she'll do her native plant art, her botanical art. She likes to do that. And, uh, and so it's really kind of interesting. They'll come back at the end of the day, she'll show me her drawings and I'll show her my one little fish. So, yeah. But, uh, Visintainer: Excuse me. So, um, so you've had a really long and distinguished career and I don't think we have time to go through it in like, phase, you know, and, and every phase of it. So I'd like to skip forward just a bit towards the end of your military career. Jackson: Okay. Visintainer: And talking about the work that you did, as I understand it, as the commander of, marine camps, Marine Corps, Installations West. Jackson: Right. Visintainer: Um, and so this is a, this is a big deal, right? Jackson: This is the culmination of, uh, um, all of my general officer assignments were big deals, I thought. I mean, they were shocking the amount of responsibility a nation was willing to give a person and this special trust and confidence that you build up over, you know, twenty-eight, twenty-nine years and they finally make you a general. Um, so, uh, if you don't mind, I'll talk about the first assignment. I was, uh-- here, I was selected for my first star as Brigadier General. And I was given the assignment to be the Deputy Commanding General for Marine [Corps] Forces Central Command. MARCENT in shorthand. So, which meant that I was gonna be the deputy for first General [Wallace "Chip"] Gregson, then General [John F.] Sattler, and then general, I had three generals who became my bosses, general [James N.] Mattis. Um, so in that capacity, my headquarters, I had two headquarters, one in Tampa, Florida, where Central Command is, and one in, Bahrain, which is on the Arabian Gulf near Saudi Arabia. And, my main job was to ensure that commanders and marines in contact on the battlefield had what they need. You're, you're the link for, the commander needs this, and industry makes it, and your headquarters. You were the judge on whether: did they really need it? And if they really needed it -- which I always agreed with the commander on the battlefield, because he knew his needs -- does the industry have it? And if headquarters is fighting it, tell them to get it, we're buying it. And I had that budget too, and so I would visit the battlefields and visit the commanders, uh, both Afghanistan and Iraq during that two year assignment. And they, and, and the-- so being in and out of the battlefield, it was different than being deployed. I had been deployed to Iraq as a colonel, but as a general, I was in and out. And I would also do diplomatic stuff in Egypt for the United States military. In Egypt, in Pakistan, and Bahrain and Oman. And I would go around and visit the military commanders and my peers. And, um, but the most critical thing I did was teaming up with a scientist named Susie Alderson, who is from right here in Fallbrook. And we, the battlefield, the commanders were wanting a vehicle that was more durable and could sustain the improvised explosive device explosions [IEDs]. And we just did not have that. Uh, we had the vehicle that our, our, our explosive ordinance disposal teams, they had a vehicle called a mine resistant, ambush protected vehicle, an MRAP. And if they got hit by a mine, it, because these guys went out into mine fields all the time and diffused them, or blew 'em up or whatever. They had this one special vehicle that the South Africans had developed that MRAP, but the [US armed] services weren't, they were sold on the Humvee for some reason. We were taking horrific casualties from these improvised explosion devices. Taking off arms, legs, killing people. And so when I was in Afghanistan, I had a United, I visited this United Nations mine clearing team, and they invited me to ride in one of these South African-built MRAPs as they were gonna clear mines. And here this general, my aide was a young captain. He did not want to get in that vehicle, but they had kind of like, "come on for the ride," okay sort of challenge you. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm in a helmet, flack jacket. I've even got ballistic protection where it really counts, you know, and, uh, so, and these guys were dressed much like you. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so I took-- accepted their ride, and we hit probably seven mines, more? Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: But they were all -- fortunately -- anti-personnel mines. And so we got rattled and we could hear the shrapnel hitting the sides of the vehicle, but we were okay. But-- Visintainer: What did that feel like when you hit a mine that first time? Jackson: Well, this vehicle was pretty solid, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I mean, what it, what it just, it kind of set off alarms and gives you a little adrenaline rush. And it was kind of like if you'd had, you ever had a rock hit the windshield in front of your car? The way it smacks that hard. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Yeah. It's like a bunch of those at once. Except they're hitting metal, so you-- And I could see our chase! They gave us a chase vehicle just in case we got stranded out there, you know, vehicle breakdown. And I could see he was hitting them too. So it wasn't doing any, anybody, any good. The Soviets had laid a lot of mines and they were just, they were just horrible in Afghanistan, 'cause they put 'em in these farmers' fields so they wouldn't grow, couldn't grow crops. And that's what the UN was doing there, clearing them as we were fighting Taliban or whoever else. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I came home. I had this passion to get this vehicle, and I had, but I wasn't gonna be able to do it. Generals, the Army had refused, the Marine Corps had refused to get this vehicle. There was a whole, I didn't realize this fight was going on. I just knew my experience. And I had seen them before. General Gregson had showed me one. And here comes Susie Alderson. She had been in Iraq for a number of months, and she on her own initiative, she was a scientist assigned to me. And so she had been over there. Um, mine was a new command, so they had just set up MARCENT to handle the Middle East. And so I was the first permanent. So here I had this scientist assigned to me, and I hadn't tasked her with anything mm-hmm. But she had been over there and she did a study on survivability in various vehicles. So she had all the data laid out, if you're in this kind of, um Humvee you're gonna get killed. If you're in this kind, ehhh, there's a 80% chance you're gonna get killed. You're gonna get your legs blown off. If you're in this truck, this-- but if you're in this MRAP that the improvised explosive of the [inaudible] explosive warning disposal teams, you're most likely only gonna feel concussion. Not a death. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So I said, "Susie, great! That fits my passion." I called my staff together, put Susie and them together. Said, "You got ten PowerPoint slides, and we're gonna present this to the three-star [general]. So you [inaudible] no more than ten, they w-- general officers will fall asleep if you got more than ten PowerPoint slides. Do not do that." So I left the room and left her to my staff to power-- come up. They came in a couple hours later, "Sir, this is the brief." And I said, "Perfect." I didn't make a change to it. Susie and my chief of staff put this, it was beautiful. I called up on a secure VTC [video teleconference] because my boss was out here at Camp Pendleton, and here I was in Tampa. Got him on a little secure video of the day and told Susie, "Susie, you're the briefer. The generals have never won this argument, but you got the right voice." And, so she briefed it and they, General Sattler stopped it, or slide number seven. Next thing you know, we called up the commandant, okay, he got it in three slides. And I started buying these vehicles. I mean, and I won't bore you with the technical part of it, but Susie's data got those vehicles in within six or seven months. I mean, I sent her around to all the big vehicle manufacturers in the US said, it's gotta have this transmission, it's gotta have this drivetrain, it's gotta have this engine. And these are the three different prototypes that you can build. You know, the John Deeres of the world that build heavy equipment, they changed assembly lines. They were happy to pitch in. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, the first 300 [IED] hits in 2006, no Marine Corps deaths. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So Susie becomes the mother of the MRAP and gets the highest decoration that a civilian can get in peace time in the, in the Department of Navy. So that was a big deal. And then as a two, that was as a one-star, that was one of the best effects as a one. As a two-star. I get assigned as the, uh, we have these four star commands, combatant commands is what they're called. One for the Pacific, one for Europe, one for South America, um, Pacific, European Command, Southern Command... And, we're gonna develop another one. And it's US Africa Command. And I'm chosen to be the first Director of Military Operations and Logistics, the J3 and the J4 for that command, headquartered outta Stuttgart, Germany and our focus would be the continent of Africa and all the associated islands. Minus Egypt. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We kept Egypt in Central command. And, uh, so, uh, it's brand new! There's nothing there. I mean, we're in rehabbed Army World War II buildings that belonged to the Wehrmacht in 1930. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Its [inaudible] journey. And so we gotta build this new command. And there were two two-stars there that were, we had a four-star boss, uh, General Walls [William E. Ward] and uh, and the Air Force, his [Wards's] chief of staff was an Air Force two-star. But I was the Director of Military Operations, which, you know, is-- I mean, you're just, you're thinking about it for every military event that goes on in the, in the continent of Africa that the US is involved in, you're gonna be the director and the advisor to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the president, the National Security Council, and the President of the United States. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You're gonna be the direct guy. And my boss was the kind of guy that, uh, general Ward, when I said Walls-- General Ward was the kind of guy, he liked to do all the diplomatic high stuff, flying around, meeting with heads of state and senior military. And he left the operational kind of running of things to me. Which I liked, but it kind of was, uh, it was interesting. Sometimes I would just wonder, okay, if we do this one, so probably the most prominent one would be in, um the, the pirates off the coast of Africa, off of Somalia. And, uh, and we had, and they generally speaking stayed away from US ships. But they would take these ships. These guys were once fishermen whose fishing industry... I mean the guys who actually were the pirates, not the businessmen in London and Somalia, the kingpins in Somalia, the warlords, but the ones who executed, the actual pirates, you know, they would get word from London who's flagship, what cargo was on it, what the crew was, all that would come out of London. And they'd filter it into Somalia. Visintainer: So there's somebody in London doing research to let them know what's headed their way? Wow. Jackson: Yeah. And so, and they know what insurance company and all this, and these guys had been fishermen, but the industrial fishing of China or Korea or Japan had just about depleted their waters. So they could not-- and so you had an understanding from an intelligence standpoint of why there was this piracy, these guys who could execute it. And they were just the lower end of the whole international cabal. But-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, um, but when they captured the Maersk Alabama, uh, which was a U.S. Flagship. No way. 'Cause we weren't gonna negotiate with those guys. So-- Visintainer: When was this? Jackson: This was 2008. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: They captured the Maersk Alabama, probably the spring. With a U.S. crew on it. And, uh, so, um... let me think. Yeah, I think that was under President Bush. Let me think for a second. 2009? Yeah, it was 2009. I think that was, I think it was actually one of the first decisions that I had to get out of President Obama. So that had to be 2009. And so it was very early in his term. So it was either late winter or early spring of 2009. And there was one guy, uh, the crew overpowered most of the pirates themselves. Without a gun fight. But, a shot was fired. One of the pirates was injured. And, uh, three of 'em captured the captain, of the ship, Captain [Richard] Phillips, and lowered a life boat and got off the ship. They made a movie outta this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, um, and, uh... So now we had, they had a hostage. We had the ship back, but they had an American hostage. And so myself, um, Admiral [William H.] McRaven was the head of our Joint Special Operations Command out of Fort Bragg [now Fort Liberty] here. So he had the Navy Seals and all the special ops guys. But they're, it was Africa's, AFRICOM's territory. My boss's out galivanting. So McRaven and I, we had the [Navy] Seals put on standby and they started rehearsing. And we had -- it's amazing -- we do several rehearsals on paper and drills. We had done a rehearsal of this on paper the year before. And so we kind of knew what the plan would be, you know? We didn't know how it [would] end, the very end of it, but we knew how we would get the right forces to the point that they could execute a mission. And then once they were at that point, it was up to them exactly how, but getting them from the States to-- so McRaven and I reviewed the plan, called up the, the Joint Chiefs, the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman [of the Joint Chiefs of Staff], and briefed the plan. And we both agreed that we had a good plan to get the Navy Seals to be able to get the, the captain back. And we got pretty fast approval from the president. I think that's what we were all surprised 'cause he's a young senator we were all grizzly old admirals and generals older than the president, you know? And so we didn't have a lot of confidence 'cause these things are time sensitive, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, we, you know. You know it ended sadly in one way, because we killed all three of the pirates. Killed three of 'em. The one guy that survived was wounded when the crew took over. And so he, he was medevacked to one of our ships prior to... And we, Captain Phillips, we brought him home and it was it. So that was one, um, of a significant event. But I guess the thing is, is that you're making these life and death decisions. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That, you know, I would often tell myself that, "Hey, you have to look yourself in the mirror. And then when you get to the pearly gates, he's the only one that can pass judgment on your, on your judgment." You know, because there's been a couple of circumstances where, you know, you've directly impacted whether or not people have lost their lives or you've taken life. And so, uh, it's-- it's just one of those things and there's certain people that have to make those hardcore decisions and to think that you're in that position. And so after two years of doing that, which was a real from the bottom up, creating a command and all of the, I mean, bringing tech, I mean we're, we're talking about copper wires that were put in by the Germans in the 1930s under Hitler that we're pulling out and pulling fiber optic cable on. So we're literally building buildings and running this command and making those kinds of decisions and other decisions which have national significance, you know. And then I was the first ordered to, or to go to Baghdad [Iraq] to be the chief of staff for our forces in Iraq for General [Raymond T.] Ordierno. And, but my boss, General Ward, he'd have had to let me go early, but he had, he had become so, uh, reliant on me -- and it was a new command -- and the Marine Corps promised him a full two years that he would have me, because they had to convince him to take a Marine. He's an Army four-star, and they had to convince him to put a Marine in that very position. And he, and he took me, you know, he probably had some young Army two-star that he would've liked to put in there, but he took me in on his command. And so when the Marine Corps said, "Hey, if you leave six months early, you can go back to war." And which from a, from a Marines standpoint, it would've been best for me to go back to Baghdad. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: And be the chief of staff for General Ordierno, that would open up more opportunities as a flag officer, more senior rolls. But to get stationed at Camp Pendleton, my wife's a Californian. It was the alternative. So when General Ward objected to me leaving six months early, it became, uh, the fallback was the Marine Corps assigned me to be the Commanding General for Marine Corps Installations, West. MCI West, which included seven Marine Corps bases out west, to be the senior guy and be stationed in my wife's hometown in a place where we had owned homes in the past. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Great place for my kids to go to school. And, and so, and my kids had already, I had in 2004... In 2002, my oldest son graduated from Fallbrook High. He got, we came here in [19]98 and he-- my wife said, "I don't know where you're gonna be for the next four years, but we're going to be here as the kids go to one school." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so Brian was on his 10th or 11th school then going into the ninth grade. And so I deployed to Japan in 2002 as a colonel. And then my other son, Blaine was gonna graduate in 2004. And so I went overseas and the family stayed on base at Camp Pendleton. And then I came back and from the Far East, 'cause I didn't do the initial march to Baghdad. And I joined the unit at Camp Pendleton and we're ordered back to Iraq. And the theme went on, "I don't know where you're gonna be, but we're gonna be here." So Blaine graduated in 2004 from Fallbrook High. He got all his four years at one school. And so they were already locked in. And the wife, when I went over to Japan, I left her to, uh... She was, had chosen some land five acres in Fallbrook in 2000. Yeah. 2000. She chose five acres of this. "There's nothing here, honey." She says, "Well, I'm designing a house with an architect." I said, "Great! Then I got ordered overseas and left her to build a house. And so I departed. I came home to help her move in to a house from the base to this house that she designed with an architect. And she interviewed five or six general contractors and hired one and stayed on the work site. I was in, doing things for the nation in Japan, Korea, and Philippines. And I came back home and helped her move in and then came back from a year without family and was here for four or five months. And we got redeployed the whole, all the, most of the combat Marines at Camp Pendleton went back to Iraq in the Al Anbar Province. And I was the Plans Officer, kind of responsible for getting all the beans, band aids, bullets, people over there and married up with their equipment on a timeline, and then be the last man to, to arrive. And I remember getting there and sitting in the, getting down, getting ready to eat a meal as my host was showing me where I was gonna sleep that night and all that. And we get a bunch of incoming rounds and the whole chow hall emptied out, two of us are sitting there. And I said, "Well, there's no point in running. You might run into one, you might run into incoming." So we went ahead and finished our meal while the stuff was coming down. You know, it's random. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's random. And so, when I got stationed back here, the wife had come to live with me when I, we finally got to live together. That was, there was that time period from 2002 to 2007 that we never really lived together. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Because I was in Tampa. She stayed here with the boys, and then they both started college. And, and I got orders to go overseas to Africa command in Stuttgart. And I said, "Hey, it's your home country. Would you like to come with me?" So she came over there for the year and a half or so. And the boys were going to college and doing what college-aged guys do without parents. Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: To provide any guidance. Jeez. And then, so when I got stationed, uh, the fallback position from not going over again to Baghdad was here. It was beautiful for family. And I knew that that would be my twilight, my last tour in the Marine Corps. So from 2009 to late 2011, I got to be the commanding general for, we have our mountain warfare training center up in Bridgeport, California. We have our Marine Corps... The real main Marine Corps ground combat center out of 29 Palms [California]. Yuma has our air station, Yuma Arizona. Miramar [Marine Corps Air Station, in San Diego], Camp Pendleton, and the Air Station on Camp Pendleton. And Barstow [Marine Corps Logistics Base, Barstow California] was the seventh one. So you're kind of the, you're kind of the governor is the way I equate it. And each one of those is a city, or in case of Camp Pendleton, several cities in a county. And so they're, they have their commanding officer, a colonel. And, so I'm basically the overseer for those to make sure they have the resources to do their job. And fortunately for me, it was the beginning of the Obama era where the Economic Recovery Act was, uh, they were looking for projects and the money was there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: To fund a lot of things. And so new hospital at Camp Pendleton, well, I got that new chow hall, new barracks, new childcare centers, all that kind of stuff. I was getting billions of dollars during my watch to build that stuff. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so it was, uh, it was a good time. I've told these young Marines now that, well, it's not gonna be like that for a while. That was during a war. And the funding was there. We had a happy Congress and they weren't squabbling over money for the military, but as soon as the wars die down, money to the military becomes scarce. Um, so, but, uh, so that was a good assignment. I would, I would say that it was, it was a little bit different than my operational time as a general officer, but we had a lot of impact. Visintainer: So this is really interesting. And I think it's, it's kind of interesting how, maybe if I'm, if I'm understanding you correctly, maybe it wouldn't have been your first choice. Jackson: Yeah. It wouldn't have been my first choice as a, yeah-- Visintainer: But in some ways it works out really nicely. Jackson: Yeah! Visintainer: To be around family-- Jackson: Because I get to be around family. I get to be-- I meet this university again. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, I never, when I, when I left, when I left here in 1986, I mean, there was nothing here. This was a stinky old chicken farm. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Uh, you know, and, uh, when I come back, your [university] president is Karen Haynes, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And her husband, gentleman Jim Mickelson is on the staff and doing what he's doing with ACE program, ACE Scholars [Services, a program for foster youth at CSUSM]. And I'm the commanding general over there. And I'm a guy with war credentials and all that kind of stuff. And, uh, and they invite me over here. And, uh, and I'm just shocked that, you know, I'd driven by a couple times on 78 and seen the building there. And, but she [Haynes] invited me to lunch and then her husband drove me around his little golf cart, you know, to campus, and I'm in uniform. And, you know, California's weird. Southern California, this uni-- our uniforms are really welcome. But Northern California is not the same place, you know. Um, and, uh, and I, and so I, she took me over and showed me the nascent Veteran Center that it was then, not what this is now. And it was kind of really a good experience and to meet Karen and see her leadership, which I would compare with any general that I'd ever served with or-- Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I've served with some of the best this nation has to offer. And, uh, so, so, um... It's kind of interesting that I could not develop the relationship at San Jose State. I tried to, I mean of course distance was an enemy. Yeah. You know, but they kept changing leadership. Even now, I think they're in search of another president. And that's five or six presidents in, in-- I visited the campus when I was on active duty, a one-star. And giving presentations, this one doctor there, Dr. Jonathan Ross, he was really interested. I funded a little books and furniture for their library. He had a military history library set up in the history department. And so, and I was funding a scholarship and I wasn't get-- there was no feedback. There was no feedback. Except for Jonathan. He would try, and he still sends me emails every now and then, but the university was really like... But anyway, I wasn't gonna work when I retired at first, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Okay. I certainly wasn't gonna be a commuter to San Diego and the freeways just like trying to get here today. I said, ah, I forgot there's construction. I should have went this way and that way and, uh, but, um... But, I really hit it off with that, uh, with the leadership that was here, and I retired and I was sitting around, enjoying trying to be a gardener, thinking about my next trip, doing this and that. And I turned down several nice jobs, mainly for my wife because she didn't want me to work, and I was, you know, sixty, about ready to get Social Security, max out Social Security, and then, you know, so why work? And Karen called and said, "Hey, how would you like to be on our foundation board?" And I said, okay. Man. Was that? I mean, she hooked me for, she had me set up. And I thought, hey, yeah. And I was on several boards, and so-- none of 'em paid. And, and I was gonna stay that way. And I'd bought my RV [recreational vehicle]. That was my retirement gift to myself, you know, nice. On that Mercedes chassis, looking good, driving down the freeway, camping out, fishing. And we did enjoy it. We do still have that. So we still enjoy it. And, I got calls from the governor's office. You know the boards were kind of pretty demanding anyway, and California State Parks was in a horrible position. They had money that they couldn't account for. It was mishandled. It wasn't stolen, thank goodness. Nobody lined their pockets with it, but it was making the headlines and, and, and I couldn't believe that Parks was so screwed up. Visintainer: If you want, I can pause this. Jackson: I'll just stop. No, this is.. It's amazing how these people get your number. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: My kids would text, my wife would text, you know, but these people will uh, are clever. Visintainer: Yeah. So that would've been around 2012 if I-- Jackson: Yeah. That was two thousand, yeah, twelve. Yeah. So, uh, and I'm just, I was in-- I was kind of amazed. We have no idea what the civilian sector pays for jobs in the military. As a general officer, you're basically working for nothing. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Because you've, you've maxed out the retirement scale, and because you can retire when you hit 30 years, you get 75% of your base pay. When you, in two and a half years, every year there after, so I was at 36 and a half years, so you'd imagine that I'm 75%, two and a half years times, and so I was already at 95, 97%, something like that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, you're, you are working because you love what you do. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Yeah. I mean, you're, you're, you're totally into what you're doing and it takes care of your family and all that. So I really didn't want to work. There was one job that I might have taken, and that was when the Chancellor for the UC system asked me if I would like to apply to be the President of CSU Maritime Academy. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Up in Vallejo. And that was in the spring, only two months after I had retired from the Marine Corps. And it was just, it would've just been the wrong time. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But our, but I did accept the Rockefeller Family Fund. I got to be known for some of the speeches that I gave, rather, now that I've seen the video, rather impassioned speeches about why we go to war, to a group of engineers and scientists, in particular, this one speech. And I was still in uniform and giving that speech, and I told them that, I just asked the audience of hundreds. I said, "Why is it that we're at war in the Middle East?" And you could hear the word oil echo out. You know? And, uh, and, uh, and I told 'em it was their responsibility to take us off of being dependent so we don't have to send our men and women overseas to bleed, you know, and I didn't realize they were videoing the damn thing. And it pops up all over the internet, right. So, and my job as MCI West, I mean, this is the military is a multi-billions of dollar industry in California. And as the commanding general of MCI West, you had access to the governor and Governor [Arnold] Schwarzenegger when I first got there, Governor [Jerry] Brown, later, you would meet with them once or twice a year. If there's any issues, like, you know, there's a state park on Camp Pendleton, it's one of the most profitable parks in the state park system. So this, it was good. They got the park for a $1 lease of several miles of beach, you know, and that was gonna come up for negotiation in a couple of years. And Secretary of the Navy wants real money for it now. It's not just a being a kind person anymore. It's, uh, so you have mutual interests and the environmental California Clean Air Act and all this kind of stuff and whether or not we can meet our tanks can meet your emission standards. No. So what's gonna be the offset? Things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So you're up there negotiating and trying to make them aware. And being a Californian, it also gave me a little bit, um, adopted Californian anyway, it gave me a little bit different access because I was one of them sort of. And so when I talked to a senator or to the member of the of the governor's cabinet, it came out, uh, we had positive discussions. So they knew me in Sacramento. And they knew I had a green side. And they knew that we were doing all of our green development on our bases. We were doing a lot. It was funded by the Secretary of the Navy, Secretary [Ray] Mabus and President Obama. And so, we were being really green. And so I was speaking the language of the Commander In Chief and the Secretary of the Navy, being really green, and as my war experience as well made me have pretty much total buy-in. And my wife's Prius. And the fact that she put in, I gave her $30,000 and put in solar at our house. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, you know, all of those things, you know. And so I got a call from the, from the governor's office and the Secretary of Natural Resources, if I would please consider being the director of California State Parks. I said, "Oh, man, that sounds so good. I could do my job in my RV." And my wife, who's just a natural member of, at that time of the Sierra Club and the California Native Plant Society and all that. This, that's actually a job I'll consider. So I told her about it, and she said, "Well, if that's what you want to do." Which is her logical, her normal answer too. And so I took that up, I mean, to get the millions of dollars back in the right place. They had a morale problem. But they're kind of like military people in as much as, uh, a bunch of really dedicated people that don't get paid much for their dedication. They work for the state, the state doesn't realize, matter of fact, I'd say in some of the assignments that the park rangers have, they live more austere than a military family would definitely live. And the state doesn't recognize that, but they're-- If you're a ranger and you've got a series of parks in Carmel, Monterey, and those beach parks and stuff like that, and the state can't pay you enough for housing and stuff, things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And some of the more remote places, it's amazing! Old ranch houses that they'll rehabilitate, you know, and they learn to love what they're doing. You know, they, they, they do it because they love the great outdoors. They love people, they love the animals and all of that stuff. And they hear they, "Hey, I want to give you a pay raise, bring you to Sacramento and put you at my right hand." "Oh, no sir. I want to be, I want to be right down here where I am. I don't want to be in Sacramento." Uh, and they, they, they, there's a very different, uh, they're, they're much like Marines, but they don't have an up or out sort of ethic or, or, or, or value system. Theirs is, "I'm here. Like, this is my park, these are my parks, and this is where I want to raise my family, even if it's a twenty-five mile bus ride for my kids to go to kindergarten." This is, this is in the, I loved them for that. Great people. And, and I think they were, I don't want to talk too badly of my predecessor, but they needed the kind of leadership that's taught and admired in the Marine Corps. So getting in my, I literally got my RV, we have a state park on-- Border Fields State Park right there at the fence. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Separating Tijuana from us. And we have one all the way on the Oregon border. Arizona border. Nevada border. And so I just, my wife and I, and I call the office in, um, and I tell my secretary, Lynn Black, I say, "Lynn, tomorrow I'm gonna be at Humboldt State Park. You can tell him now." Okay. But I didn't want her to tell him, you know, a week in adva-- I didn't want him scrambling. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: You know, I know how it is in the military when you know the general's gonna show up. It might be two weeks of scrubbing brass, you know, you know, if they got two weeks notice, they have two weeks of panic. If they, if they have twenty-four hours of notice, they only got twenty-four hours of panic. And you can't fix much that's broken in 24 hours. So that was great. I, I did enjoy that. I did not want a new career though. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, I told the governor I've got two or three years, and not only that, I had grown spoiled, as a general officer to make critical decisions, life decisions. And you cannot do that. I mean, you're a political appointee of the governor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And you gotta be approved by, you know, two-thirds of the state senate. So you had to go through those hearings and all that, so you could not be totally, you could be what the governor wanted. But maybe not the governor's staff. The initiative was a little bit frightening. My initiative I think was a little bit frightening in Sacramento, and I can't stand micromanagers. Visintainer: Yeah. How was it frightening? Jackson: Uh, say your question again? Visintainer: How was it frightening? Jackson: Um, who, my initiative? Because I might do something that, uh, that might be really good for parks, really good for parks' people, but maybe it doesn't suit the governor's budget agenda. It might be too, you know, and so you did not want, and you didn't want to be that guy that-- but you wanted to do the right things, and you had to have people that would kind of support you in, in, in, in, uh, that you were trying to do the right thing. Now, they could argue, and you might not be able to do it, but I did not feel that-- the military's incredible in terms of the responsibilities that I was given. And it was based on the special trust and confidence that I had built up over, you know, thirty years of service. And that, I mean that is, you're making really important decisions affecting people and maybe tens of thousands of people. And so to come down from that, it was, was, was not ideal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you had to come down from that, uh, you know, uh, your ego. Something had to, had to, had to back off. That you no longer had that much special trust and confi-- You had some trust and confidence. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But you didn't have that ultimate special trust, you know, because, you know. And, uh, and so I, I, I, I decided that certainly I didn't wanna spend any more time in that environment than fixing what I could fix. So got the budget money straight, got it all back, started fixing restrooms, started-- I, you know, I took it like it was a military operation: to develop a campaign plan, publish it to everybody. To everybody. Put it on the, on the website so every employee could read it. Visintainer: And at some point-- Jackson: I, you know, I set up a, it still goes, they dropped me off the mailing list. My wife is still on the mailing list, but it's an email newsletter goes out every Friday. It's the same thing the Marine Corps does. I still get 'em from the, from the... from the Chief of Naval Operations. And I get a daily report of what's important. And then from the Marine Corps, every Friday I get one. You know, so that when I'm communicating as a member of a community, I'm talking from some firsthand knowledge. Not all of it, I don't, I'm not nothing secret, all open source stuff that we can communicate when we're out in our communities. As a flag officer, you still have certain responsibilities. Visintainer: Sure. Jackson: That, uh, uh, so yeah. So the civilian world's a little bit different, you know, and it was kind of... I think you have to, you have to adapt to it though, it's not gonna adapt to you. And so I, you know, after about two years, I kind of said, okay, and things are relatively stable here, for you. And, I would, I'm gonna step down and I was like I'm, I was just ready not to, and my wife one day, she goes, I was, I was commuting back and forth. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So I would like fly home on Friday night and maybe Thursday night sometimes, and then I'd fly out Sunday night back to Sacramento or early Monday morning. And, you know, and that-- one day she looks at me and she says, "This is just like you're deployed." Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know. So I knew it was about time to put in the hat. Those two things came together, that deployment remark. And I was like, challenged whether or not I did, I wanted to give up the idea of that special trust and confidence that I had grown so used to as a military officer. Visintainer: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Jackson: Mm-hmm. So. Visintainer: I had a couple questions about Camp Pendleton I wanted to ask you. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: One was, I was, I was curious about the base's relationship with the surrounding North County community and how that changed, how you've seen that change over time, if it has, maybe it hasn't? Jackson: Actually. Um, you know when Oceanside [California] was like shootouts at the O.K .Corral, not shootouts, but get drunk, go to a strip club, that kind of thing. In the seventies, it was, it was pretty, pretty harsh. And 'cause the Marine Corps was, it was, it was-- those were tough times for the Marine Corps and the city and the development. You didn't have the growth boom that's occurred over the last forty to fifty years for sure. But, I think it's really good relationship with the, with the uh, with the community. With the colleges, community colleges. I think this is a great relationship that Cal State San Marcos has with the military community in San Diego, writ large. And I think that Camp Pendleton... I think, I think the region knows that like 65% of the Marine Corps' combat power is here and you can add on the Yuma Air Station with it, is here, this is the main war-fighting engine, and you got similar but smaller in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina and forward deployed in Okinawa, Japan. But they're smaller and they have different wartime commitments. This is the heavy punch. And these bases, both the airspace, the sea space and the ground space for training are unmatched in the world. So you have the finest, this geographic area, just, just what God put here makes it that way, you know, and you can have every just about climatic condition within MCI West, with the exception of a tropical jungle, you know. From the Sierras and our cold weather arctic training to the desert, to mountains and all this kind of stuff, the beaches. And, I mean, it's incredible training. And that's why Camp Pendleton, you know, was initially, what do they call it when the city comes in and takes your property? They took Camp Pendleton-- Visintainer: Eminent domain? Jackson: Eminent domain. That's how it was. You know, here's $4 million, you're out of here. The O'Neill family, and they're the ones that developed San Clemente and all that region up north of San Clemente, you know, big developers, they're still here. The O'Neil family still, part of it's still here. But that eighteen miles of coastline, the number of military and military families associated with it. That, and the Navy, I think this is, we generate billions, like thirty-six billion dollars annually. And then in the state of California, it's over fifty-six billion dollars. So-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Just about one in every eleven or twelve defense dollars comes to California. Visintainer: Wow. That's significant. Jackson: Yeah. I mean, you considered there's 50 states. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they pay taxes too. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, um, I mean, Vista, the mayors, the, and the, and the San Clemente and, and Oceanside and San Marcos, they show up at events. They're invitees. They're on the invitation list to events. The old mayor of Oceanside, he used to be quite a character, but he was kind of losing it a little bit, and he's a really nice guy and he's had some strokes and stuff like that, but he'd still show up, you know? To things. And so I think that both from an economic development standpoint, and I think Camp Pendleton also felt that during my time there, that we were really helping San Diego, San Diego County, and the local communities with our investments that were given through the Economic Recovery Act. We were employing the citizens out there. It's a, you know, it's a kind of a domino effect on money spent from the military community here. So I think there's a really good relationship between the military. And I, and I, and, and I appreciate it because I don't think every community in California, although I'm on the governor's military council, and so I get to visit-- matter of fact, we have a meeting in another week or two. I better look at my calendar up at Vandenberg Air Force Base. But we meet all over the state where there's military communities, and we try to tie the, one of the things we try to do is tie the communities with the military base around them, and a lot of, and the communities have embraced that to the benefit of both. Because if you have a, um, a water problem or a waste management problem on your base, well, that's part of the community's problem too, because you're probably locked into the system. If you're trying to do renewable energies on the base, that's probably the community's issue too. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: If the schools aren't properly funded in the communities around the base, then you're, it's probably the base people are gonna be concerned. The military families are gonna be concerned, and they're not gonna want to go there if the schools aren't good schools. And so, I mean, we did a, around both Camp Pendleton, the Fallbrook Union School, elementary school district, and around Edwards Air Force Base, north of Los Angeles, they were both schools that are impacted by the military but weren't, were slipping in terms of, oh, quality of education, quality of facilities, and getting instructors. And some of these places are hardcore. And so the military worked with them to get matching funding in both of those school districts to, to rebuild schools, to hire teachers and things like that, that affects quality of life for military families as well as, you know, the community writ large. So it behooves the communities to, uh, to be kind of tied in with the bases, and it behooves the bases to be tied in. And so the commanders normally really recognize that and are accepted in the community. I have had one negative experience. It was actually, I was at [employed at] state parks and I was asked to be the commencement speaker at my high school in Oakland. It's kind of nice. I'm a retired general coming, and then I got a phone call from them, saying the principal wanted to make sure that I would not wear my uniform to the [ceremony]. Now I've been retired for, probably couldn't fit in my uniform and he should have thought of that. "Don't wear your uniform," basically. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, wait a minute." The high school principal's asking a guy who spent thirty-six and a half years in this uniform, that he doesn't want him to wear it. Now, first of all, I wouldn't have thought of wearing my uniform to, uh, you know, if it's a military event... No, I still wouldn't have worn a uniform. Get a new tuxedo. I mean, you're in ship, tip-shop shape when you're in there. You know, you're you know. I think I've grown a little bit rotund since those days, right. Gently so. But, uh, and so that uniform is fitted to you, you know? And so I wouldn't have dreamed of it. But he, it was such an insult. I said, unless they withdraw that I'm not gonna speak. And so I didn't speak at my high school. And that was after retirement, and it was a totally unnecessary thing. But that's the difference. I mean, you'll run into that at the, at northern, you know. You know, I remember days going to watch the students riot at Berkeley and all that, but that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That was an attitude out of a principal in Oakland and my old alma mater. So, uh, and that's the only negative that, but I thought that was uh, and I just told him, I said, "Well, I can't come." I said, because it, it's like you're dishonoring-- Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You want me to deny I am a general. Visintainer: That's a huge part of your, your existence-- Jackson: When you, you know, as I remember Commandant General James Conway going, no matter what, gentlemen-- all the generals in the Marine Corps get together once a year, and those who aren't forward deployed anyway, and he says, "I don't want you all worrying about whether you're a one-star, two-star, three-star, whatever. You're all just going to be generals and when they put it on your tombstone, that's what everybody will remember." They don't remember if you're, whatever, general, general, Lieutenant General. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so I thought that was good advice for, you know, and, uh, yeah. But yeah, it's kind of an interesting, well, let me show you one thing here. &lt ; laughs&gt ; I brought this because my wife told me to bring it, but she's my smartest counselor. She does these really cool, she doesn't do like family albums, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: She tells the family story in this, in these, so you can-- Visintainer: Can I [inaudible]? &lt ; Visintainer moves camera to show album sitting in Jackson's lap&gt ; . Jackson: She does these drawings. Yeah. Yeah. So all the drawings you see in this, she does, there's an old oak tree down by the Santa Margarita River and it's been chopped and it's been burned, and the top's been blown off in high winds, but it's just resilient, you know? So she says, that's kind of the story of your family-- Visintainer: Uh-huh. Jackson: Resilience, you know, and so, uh... So you'll see these different drawings, and then she'll go through and then she's found, it's kind of hard ; we know that on my mother's side, this is my dad's, I mean, you can see how thin [the family tree is], when you're descendants of slaves, you don't necessarily get all the way back on the African descendants' side. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Very far. And this is my dad's little genealogical tree. And then this is my mother's. And what's interesting is from my mother's side, and this is where my dad lied on his draft card and said his parents were deceased. And, so that's my dad as a like 16 year-old. I said, he looks like older than that, and this is him at the Korean War, and this is kind of his story. And then when I said he is a boxer, now this is my dad, when I was a senior in high school. Do you think I'd ever mess with my dad? Visintainer: No you can definitely he was a, he was a prize fighter. Jackson: But he never lifted weights. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And this is a newspaper article when he was-- about why he chose to stay [inaudible]. He was a rated heavyweight fighter, but he chose to stick with the Army. And in this article there, they asked him why. And he just said it was more secure. But I only saw him in person fight one time. And he knocked the guy out with a, and this is his father and his mother. And yeah, that's my oldest sister and grandmother and my dad's sister. But there's, now it goes over to my mother's side, and this is my mother as a girl. And this is all seven, there's very few pictures of all seven of my brothers and sisters. And this is like third grade Tony right there with his finger in his mouth. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And this is, and this is us in Oakland. This is in Texas. And this is all seven of the kids. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, my dad's funeral, I think that's what got us back together. But my family goes back to the original pioneers on my mother's side of, founding, they were with Brigham Young's party. And, um, and this tells the story, and one of the three people were with Brigham Young that were slaves. And my great-great-great grandfather [Green Flake] was a slave to, that was with that original Mormon party. And so he becomes a founder. That's my great-grandmother. There's a couple of pictures in here that are kind of neat. But Green Flake, that's him, was a slave. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That came with the original. This tells the story of the original Mormon party that he was with. And he was, he was a scout. And um, and he-- and um, a road builder. And he drove Brigham Young's wagon. So when Brigham Young ends up in Salt Lake, the guy who he says, "This is the place," is my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake. Now this is kind of a, this is my, this is Green Flake's daughter, my great-great-grandmother. This is my great-grandmother. This is that same great-grandmother with my grandmother, with my mother, with my older sister. Now, the curious thing is: so far the oldest of each generation is a woman, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then now down here, this is a picture with my grandmother: her, my mother, her ; my sister, her right there ; her daughter Lonnie, the first of that generation, and her daughter. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So for seven consecutive generations, it's all girls. Visintainer: That's amazing. Jackson: And then finally she broke the mold. She now has a son, which is the first of that generation. And this is another curious thing. This is my great-great grandfather, one of them. And he's Mexican. And he changed his name to George Stevens. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: It doesn't show up much in my DNA, less than 1%. So my family has always had this knowledge. And then my wife got really into it. And then, and Green Flake-- This is a statue of Brigham Young, which is in downtown Salt Lake City, if you've ever been there. Visintainer: I've never been. Jackson: And in it, they list all of the original pioneers. And then down in a corner it has the three slaves, and which includes my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake, you know. And, um, so he becomes the oldest living member of the original Mormon pioneers. Of the original ones. And so he's at the Jubilee, the 50th anniversary, he gets invited back from his farm in Idaho to be an honored guest as the oldest living. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And so, and here this lady stands up, this is from the Salt Lake Union Tribune of 1903 or something like that when he's there. And [the lady] asked him what it's like to be a slave. And so we actually have in quotes from the Tribune what it was like. 'Cause he was born in 1828. So, so that was kind of curious. And so where they did make a marker at a park, Pioneer Park. This marker was there, and somebody tore it down years ago. And I took my sons to see it with my mother, and this is his tombstone, which is kind of cool. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And, uh, so somebody tore this down, and then, so this-- It was amazing, this summer, last summer past, they finally-- that's my family reunion, right? This picture right here, that's my sister and aunt. They finally built this thing. Look how small they look. Over a 10-foot statue of Green Flake now is in the, the historic park, um, Heritage Park of Salt Lake City, Utah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's got this oversized statue of Green is finally made the, besides the footnote. But anyway, that was just in July I think they commemorated that statue. So that's part of what gives Jackson strength. Visintainer: Yes. Jackson: You know, is knowing that you have a, you know, a big history with this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Are we over time? Visintainer: Uh, we-- we we're actually almost out of [camera] battery strength. We've talked for a while, so I think it's as good a place of any is to end the interview. I actually have so many more questions for you, but-- Jackson: That's all right. Visintainer: We'll run out of, we're run out of battery so-- Jackson: That's okay. It was fun to talk. Visintainer: It is a real pleasure to have you-- Jackson: Be hoarse the rest of the day. Visintainer: Yeah. It's a pleasure to have you visit us and-- Jackson: Yeah, well thanks for inviting me to recall some good things and, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: There were no real flashbacks, you know? Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: It can happen though. Every now and then, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Oh man. Visintainer: Well, thank you again. Jackson: Okay. Hopefully that was-- Visintainer: I'm gonna go ahead and end the interview. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs.&#13 ; &#13 ; This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. 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Description An account of the resource Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2012, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors. In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States Army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West). Jackson also discusses his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-32 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Civil rights demonstrations Iraq War, 2003-2011 Military families Mormon Church Piracy -- Indian Ocean Racism United States. Africa Command United States. Marine Corps Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony L. Jackson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Houston (Tex.) Indian Ocean Oakland (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Stuttgart (Germany); Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived SC027 Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Anthony L. Jackson https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/9173acfb4043d98a992ece390b686936.pdf 745685fd9a5c04a10e7e266af852c2c4 PDF Text Text ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Sean Visintainer: Hello, this is Sean Visintainer, and I'm interviewing Major General Anthony Jackson for the California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History initiative. Today is March 7th, 2023, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Major General Jackson, thank you for interviewing with us today. Anthony Jackson: Yeah, you're welcome. It's a, it's a privilege, kind of a, an honor, I guess I should say. Visintainer: These are, uh, the favorite part of my job that I get to do. So it's a real pleasure to have you. I forgot to mention that I will take some notes as we're interviewing, just so you know. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: So I can circle back to questions if I have them. Jackson: All right. Visintainer: Uh, things like that. And I wanted to just start off by asking you about your childhood and your formative years. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: Um, where were you born? Jackson: I was born at Madigan General Hospital in Fort Lewis, Washington. My father was a career soldier. So I was the fourth of his children. Uh, let's see. And being a military brat, you grow up in a lot of different places. But, uh, yeah, my dad, uh, he lied about his age and lied about his parentage to join the army shortly after Pearl Harbor. He met his, my mother in, May of [19]42, and married her in June of the same year. And then he went overseas to Europe for, for three years. In those days they went for the duration and came home to see my, uh, oldest sister was three years old when he got home. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 1 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And then, my older brother was born in [19]46, and then Matt, and then Don was born in [19]48, and then I was born in [19]49, and the Korean War broke out so my mother got a break. Visintainer: Yeah. <laughs>. Jackson: And dad came home in [19]52, and <laughs> Clay was born in [19]53. And then Dana was born in, uh, [19]56, and Tawnya was born in [19]57. I guess they're Irish twins. And that was the last of the kids. But if you notice, I was seven. The girls, Betty is the oldest, and Tanya the youngest. And then there's five boys, and I'm the top dead-center. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, and, uh, highly competitive sports-oriented family with the boys. And, uh, I guess I should say that the main thing in that growing up was, I was kind of taking notes and reviewing my own life a couple weeks ago; that I started school in Germany, did kindergarten and first grade in Germany, and then my dad got stationed in Los Angeles. So I, uh, <Visintainer coughs> spent the second grade in Los Angeles. Then I spent the third grade-- He got sent someplace else, spent the third grade in Houston, Texas, his hometown. And then I spent four through the seventh grade in Colorado at two different schools. And then back to Texas for the eighth <laughs>. And then in the middle of the ninth grade, a couple months into the ninth grade, we moved to California in 1963 as uh, and all my teachers in Texas were excited. I was going to such a great state for academics. And so I got here in October [19]63 as a ninth grader, as the brand new kid talking funny, dressing, funny and-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Fighting my way through the ninth grade. But, so I was fortunate to go to high school in Oakland. You know that they have three-year high school. So all my high school years, I was the first of my brothers and sisters. If you'll see those days, you'll see that they got ripped off <laughs> and didn't go to one single high school, my older one. So I was the first one that kind of got planted at one place. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then, um, and that was really good because counselors and everybody started prepping me for college. Uh, Mrs. [Phyllis] Collier wouldn't let me go. She constantly -- she was my counselor -constantly tried to get me into college prep classes, which she did, and make me take the SATs. You're not going to the state wrestling finals unless you take the SATs. And, uh, and that was a good experience. Yeah. Football became my, uh, my great love of sports, although played a lot of baseball, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 2 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 basketball, and all those kinds of things, wrestled in high school. But I got a football scholarship, offered several scholarships. I was lucky to be... I was born at exactly the right time. You know, the high, the civil rights movement, the, all the sacrifices of so many people during the Civil Rights Movement. When I graduated from high school in 1967, universities were looking for me in terms of race, in terms of athleticism, in terms of grades and SATs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I just happened to be born at that exact right juncture of the civil rights movement and who could get that young African American into the university. But I took a football scholarship <laughs>, because I knew that was just based on pure athleticism or whatever. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: But it was still important. That was, the doors were opening wide, and I just happened to be the right age, born at right time as well. So that was my kind of through high school, uh, living in a lot of different places. Three years in Germany, four years in Colorado, off and on in Texas. And so, um, with mom and dad always providing a good solid family basis, and my mother was incredibly, like, I still look back and, you know here I was a high-ranking officer, [inaudible] and having two kids was expensive. <laughs> Here my dad was a sergeant in the army, not an officer. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And he, and somehow she managed to put together great meals that we were all healthy and athletic and all that. And I still wonder how she did it. It was pretty-- she was pretty fantastic. She sewed our clothes and did all kinds of things that, you know sometimes I see the kids walking around here with patches and torn jeans and all that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That would've been so embarrassing for my family. <laughter> We were, we were poor, you know, <laughs> and here these kids, I guess middle class kids that, that wanted to look like that <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 3 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: We would've been totally embarrassed. And mom would sew up those torn spots. Visintainer: You said she was, uh, she managed to make great meals for everybody in your family. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: I was curious, is there a, is there a, a particular meal or food that really evokes memories of your childhood? Jackson: I would say that we ate a lot of cooked cereal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, things like cornmeal and oatmeal and grits and yeah. And, um, it was because it was inexpensive and filled with nutrition. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I presume and it filled you up, you know? And so, uh, yeah. And you never turned your back on your plate. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Spaghetti and meatballs, you turn your back <laughs>. One of those meatballs was gonna be missing you know, <laughs>. I mean, you never missed dinner. You never missed a meal. You were always home. You didn't wear a watch. You didn't have a watch, but you knew what dinnertime was. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 4 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And you knew, you knew that, uh, you know, to be home for dinner. Um, so my mother was a, just a great cook. And, uh, and I just remember that there was always a meal, uh, sometimes they were pretty creative. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Like, she would make syrup out of, uh, out of sugar and water, and she'd just melt it down. And that would be the syrup for your pancakes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, she didn't, orange juice, you know, if the can said "mix three cans of water with this," she'd probably mix four, four or five you know, stretching things out. She could do that. But, uh... Man, she-Yeah, you would never turn down one of her meals. I would just say that, uh, everything she cooked was worthy of eating. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Except turnips. <laughter> Visintainer: So that was the, that was the vegetable. That was-Jackson: Yeah, that was the one. I mean I liked all the other green vegetables and stuff like that. But I never really, I was kind of amazed when I was being recruited. I was being recruited to play football at UC [University of California] Berkeley. And, um, they brought me into the Bear's Lair, Bear's Lair, their kind of campus restaurant. And they put a salad in front of me, a green salad with just lettuce-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I said, what <laughs>, what am I supposed to do with this? Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 5 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Because I'd never had a lettuce salad that I could ever have recalled. So I had to watch, uh what the coaches who were recruiting me were doing with that <laughs>, 'cause our meals were substantial. And [inaudible] they were designed to fill you up, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: As a kid more than anything. Yeah. Visintainer: Did, uh, did you live on bases? Jackson: Yeah. We s-- you know, um... We, we, we lived on and off base. The military, it wasn't until my time in the military, the military used to be when you got stationed overseas, families had to move off the base housing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And it was in my times in, I think in the, uh, I want to say in the 1980s, that even though your, uh, spouse was overseas, you could stay on base, uh, at least in the Marine Corps. But we lived, um, sometimes we'd stay a while with relatives. But my mother was from Salt Lake City, Utah. And so we would sometimes stage there for a couple months before we went overseas or before we went to California or something like that. And, but, let's see, on-- in Germany, yeah, all that time was on military base. Colorado was four years on military base. Oakland, the first couple of years we lived on a military base, but my dad also kept a little home in Houston, Texas. And a couple of times we would move into that house. And uh, but when he retired from the Army when I was a senior in high school, he bought a home in Oakland. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: And that was my senior year so that was the first year I had moved up in the pecking order to get a bedroom by myself. 'Cause we usually lived in a three-bedroom house, one [bedroom] for mom and dad, one for the two girls and then the last one, <laughs> was either for my older brother, if it was small. And we, like in Colorado the older brother had a room, and then the four younger ones slept in the basement. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 6 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: In bunk beds, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then finally when I was a senior, I got a room to myself for a few months when <laughs>, you know, so, um--But we settled, the family settled in Oakland. And that's where my mother and father lived until they passed away. And, uh, they-- so it was, uh, the military bases are sort of protected in some ways from-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: A little bit different than society, you know. And then even as I went through my career, we stayed on bases sometimes. Not always. Visintainer: Uh, you said that the military bases are protected and different from society. Jackson: Yeah. Its-- They're, they're a little bit different-Visintainer: Could you explain-Jackson: Because first of all, I'll never forget, like when we were stationed in Hawaii, and my kids were like six months old when we got there, and two years old. So they were pretty young. But by the time they were there, we were there for a year or two. The military police knew where your kids belong. They knew what house. If they saw your kid running amuck someplace, "Yeah, maybe you had to go back to your yard," you know, because-- And so from that standpoint, and military police are a different sort of presence. They're more like the old neighborhood police officers. They're Marines essentially. And now they have some civilians that do that on military bases. The other thing is: all your neighbors, you're all in the same boat <laughs>. You know, you're gonna say, although, you know, you have sometimes segregated housing based on rank. Um, um, and they [military bases] have their elementary school, they have their grocery stores. They have their equivalent of a Walmart or 7-Eleven. They have their gas stations, their fire department, the hospital. So you have a city, literally, or maybe even several towns, like as big as Camp Pendleton is, there are several schools in like the northern part. Once you get to high school, uh, and junior high, you go to San Clemente Public Schools. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 7 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: On the, on the eastern side, where I lived on the base, or southeastern side, you go to Fallbrook schools and on the south side of the base, you go to Ocean-- your kids go to Oceanside schools. So, uh, but, um, everybody's employed, you know? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: There is a hierarchy, you know. If you're-- That is respected. Kids stop when they're hearing the national anthem is being played every morning at eight o'clock. If they're at the playground in the morning at eight o'clock, or when the flag's coming down in the evening at sunset, they'll stop. And you'll see kindergarteners stand in position of attention, while getting off the swings and the teeter-totter or whatever they call them now. And uh, it's kind of unique. Even my Great Dane used to know to stop and sit when the national anthem was being played <laughs>, you know, just-- So it's a, and race is erased. Mostly. I mean we're all a product of American society. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Um, um, and it's more, I would say it's more of a meritocracy in terms of what you experience and how you experience, and your rank and your uniform automatically entitles you to X amount of respect. And everybody rec-- and that includes the general has to respect the most junior person, you know. And so uh, you're somewhat protected and there's rules that are, that are pretty strict, you know? And even the, even the nurses in the emergency room got to know my sons <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "Hey, Brian, what are you in here for this time?" You know <laughs>. He's a skateboarder. Bashed his skull, skinned his face, you know, all of that stuff. And they know him. "Uh, okay. You're a Jackson kid. All right. Okay." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Do you, do you think that that experience was similar for your father? Jackson: No my dad, he lived a whole different world. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 8 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's one of the stage setters. When he, when he was 17 years old, trying to get into the military in 1942, Marines didn't accept Blacks into the military. It wasn't until a year later, you know. And he lived in Texas, you know, grew up in Texas. And in his youth and for a long time, even through a portion of my youth, Texas was one of the most violent places to be African American. I mean I had a, I had one of my Marines, a master gunnery sergeant, a very senior enlisted Marine, who was my senior enlisted advisor. And he's a Texan, African American. And his father was lynched in Texas. And so what's your, um-- You know, so there's, there's, there's only a generation or two that separates you from that kind of conduct. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And when my dad joined the Army, it was segregated. Matter of fact, he was stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City, 'cause that's where one of the last of the Buffalo Soldiers were stationed at, at, at, um, even at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century, the Buffalo Soldiers had been stationed at Fort Douglas in Salt Lake City. And so when they started bringing in African Americans into the US Army for World War II, that became a place where they trained. And so they didn't have a USO [United Service Organization], they had a USO for white soldiers, but they didn't even have a USO for Black soldiers. So in creating a USO for Black soldiers, now they recruited my mother <laughs>, you know, to be one of the hostesses. And that's how they met. And within two weeks they were married. Geez. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they stayed married, you know. Um, so. And dad, I am sure when I see, you know, I think he was extraordinarily smart, extraordinarily clever. And you had to be more clever to survive, I think, in those days, because there were a lot of racial booby traps that you could walk into. And I think that, um, I don't know all of the history of that, but he should have been, with the number of years he spent in, 24 years, he should have been a higher rank in most circumstances. And I won't recall what the family's story is as to why, but I have pictures of him at a higher rank. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then he retired at another rank, lowered, 10 years later, you know. So he was, so there was an incident that occurred, I think, with my older brother, Matt. And he was, an officer had bumped him on his bicycle and knocked him to the ground and knocked a tooth out, and when my dad was called to the scene, this is more family lore, the officer used the N-word in referring to my, my brother. And the officer was white, and my dad reflexively hit him. And he was a master sergeant at the time. And, uh, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 9 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 this was when we lived in Germany. And my dad was a prize fighter too. He was really good. At one time he was, uh, rated in the world and he was an alternate on the 1948 Olympic team as a light heavyweight. And, um, and so, uh... But the army liked him enough to keep him, but they had to do something. And so he became reduced in rank by one and then permanently put in that rank. Jackson: And he stayed in that rank for another, I want to say twelve years, which is not normal. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Even today or yesteryear, that wouldn't have been normal. So they liked him, but they [inaudible]. So he paid a price that I could-- I didn't pay. And when I joined the Marine Corps, <laughs>, I'll never forget what him saying, "Why did you want to join that redneck outfit?" Because remember, in [19]42, they wouldn't take, they took a lot of, and it was [19]43, they had their first [Black] officer, they had their first [Black] pilot in about 1950, first general African American in 1981, Frank Petersen. So it's uh, it was kind of a, you know, my, my my answer to him was, if not me, who? Somebody has to be. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I was not the first but I was one of the few at the time that came in. And General Petersen leading the way, of course. But yeah, dad had a different life. Mom had a different life. She, I mean education, that was the key difference. You know, is that I was fortunate my mother and father were both high school grads and both of them believed in the power of education. So that was, I think it was really vital to the development of all of us. And then coming to California, which when I came here, it was the number one best school system, public school system in the nation. And I don't know-- If I understand, it doesn't rank very high now, but when I came here, the, you know, from the high school to the community colleges, to the state colleges and state universities, uh, it couldn't be better. So another lucky break for Tony Jackson. Visintainer: Yeah. <Jackson laughs> Um, you mentioned your dad grew up in Texas. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And he had kept a house there for quite a while. Jackson: Right. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 10 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Was he particularly, uh, happy when he got stationed in Houston? Jackson: You know, that's something that I would've been too young. He was, he wasn't stationed in Houston. He was stationed in another-- at, uh, Fort Hood, which is outside [Houston]. I don't think that-- he never expressed that. And I was too young if he, if he emoted it to my mother, you know? That was, that would've been grown-up talk back in those days. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But Houston was segregated. It was, the schools were segregated. It was kind of ironic because I'd lived on army bases. I'd done most of my-- Up until the time we moved to Texas, when I was in the third grade, I did kindergarten, first grade in Germany at integrated school, at the military school on base. And then we came out to California. But that was a short stay. But I did second grade in integrated schools. Then all of a sudden, in third grade, I'm in this town and the part of town where dad had a house, everybody's Black, the policeman's Black, the pharm is Black, the teachers and principals, they're all Black. And that was the first, you know, uh, 1958. And, uh, it was, uh, it was very interesting. Corporal punishment, <laughs>. That's the first time I met that one too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Where the teachers could paddle you? Yeah. You, they, they, they still did that. I remember getting my hand paddled because my writing was so poor <laughs>. Um, but, um... So we moved there [Houston] because he did not want us probably to live in the part of Texas where that base was, and close to relatives. He had a, uh, his, his half-sister lived there, the aunt that helped raise him lived in Houston. And so, and his father lived in Houston. And so, uh, we lived there just a half mile or so from his sister and my aunt, Juanita. And so, uh... And he never gave any indication that he wanted, um, wanted to live there permanently in Houston. You know, I mean, the movie theaters, in those days, you had to sit in the balcony, even the beaches were s-- you know, they had a rope. This was for white people. This was for Black people. Don't cross the rope. The drinking. I remember as a 13 year-old doing a sit-in, in the eighth grade, when we moved back there the second time, the civil rights movement was pretty churned up. And young people, high school, college were doing sit-ins at, uh, at the drug stores that didn't allow you to sit at the soda fountains. You might be able to buy something there, but don't sit down at the counter. And I remember myself from a couple of my eighth and ninth grade buddies, we decided, we were waiting for a bus, and we wanted a RC Cola and a moon pie. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 11 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And we walked into the local drugstore to buy 'em, and we decided we were gonna sit at the lunch counter, like all these kids were doing around the nation. So we did our little sit-in, and they, this big old guy comes out from somewhere in the warehouse, and he's pounding on a billy club, like, "Hmm, what are you kids doing?" But he didn't say anything to us, just the, the waitress behind the counter. She was very nervous trying to get us to get up. And we looked over and saw him and just waved. And then our bus came and we walked out. But it was our little, that was our little act of defiance. And every now and then, you'd have to say if not me who? And so we sat at a lunch counter for a while, you know. Visintainer: So I had seen it in another interview. You'd referenced this, uh, lunch counter sit-in. Uh, didn't go into detail. And so I wanted to ask you a few questions about it. So it was, uh, it was totally spontaneous? You were-Jackson: Yeah. It was spontaneous. We, it was, it was in the news. People were doing it in Virginia, in Memphis, and, you know, and it was a, you knew there was a kind of a hazard you could end up, you know, uh... in jail or something, you know. But we just, I think there's been a couple of times where I've been involved in civil rights protests, but where you just have to do something, you know. I mean, I mean, you just-- I watched my older sister, probably one of the greatest acts of defiance that I've ever seen: my older sister, Betty, she's 80 years old yesterday, and she's just as tough as she was when she was. But I was riding a bus with her in Houston, and this was in the fifties too, so it had to be about [19]58. And we were riding across town, heading home, and we, we sat right in front of the bus. Whether she was thinking, you know... You got to, she's, she's a pretty feisty little-- and then she would've only been about 13 or 14, and I would've been third grade. And, so we sat in the front of the bus, and the bus driver stopped, and the bus was crowded, and he wanted-- bus driver stopped and came out, told her she had to get up, go back of the bus and let these white people sit down. And I'm like, "Hmm." I'm only nine years old. So I'm like, hmm, this big old guy is <Jackson gestures>. And then she refused to move. And, um... And then he balled up his fist and he threatened her, and she refused to move. And, uh, and she just sat there, and then he had to go drive that bus <laughs>, and he left her alone the rest of the ride. She never budged. Visintainer: That's very courageous. Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the way she is. And so you, you know, I've seen, and, you know you grew up with those pictures on tv, the Birmingham and all that stuff, and Little Rock and, bombings and kids with-- and so you knew that there was this tension. But like I tell people, and I gave a speech the other day for Black History. I was always a person that took literally the words of the, the, the preamble to the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Gettysburg Address. And I remember I had to memorize the preamble in the Gettysburg Address and the first couple of paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence when I was in segregated schools in Houston, Texas, in the ninth grade. And I took those words literally. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 12 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: And I looked at my dad's service, and he had obviously paid a, you know, paid for his citizenship, wearing that uniform for 24 years. And so I always have had the feeling and, uh, that, "Hey, if you're, if you're better than me, that means you can whip me in the football field or wrestling, or you can beat me on the spelling bee or the math bee or something like that. But you don't automatically get that <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That's not an automatic. <laughs> I walk through the door like you walk through the door, and then we'll see how it goes. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, and I guess that's, I even, uh, even in my own career, I kept that same kind of attitude. And you know, and I've got deep roots that in terms of where my family comes from, especially on my mother's side. My wife does these great genealogies. And, I actually book brought the book that she has kind of put together. Rather than just a photo album, she puts together genealogical albums, and they're kind of cool. Visintainer: Nice. Jackson: I'll show you at some point if you want to see it. Visintainer: Yeah, I'd love to. Jackson: Yeah. But, so, but, you know. One of the things I do tell people, sometimes younger people is that, we like to say that we're all born equal. And that's a kind of an idealistic sort of thing. But if your mother was a drug addict and you were born addicted, you're not the same as the guy who's like, my kids, you know, their dad was already an officer, and already was financially stable, their mother was healthy, a registered dietician, and what she did during her pregnancy is very different than what this-- And so the kids start out equal in terms of under whatever your religion is, under your god's eye, maybe they're equal, but in terms of what the world's offering 'em right now, real different. Okay. And so things like race-- and so I say, "Everybody's born with a backpack, and in that backpack is X amount of rocks." And it's a little bit different, what the weight is at birth. Now, as you go through life, you can take out a rock or you can add a rock. Some of 'em are based on choices of, of your own choice. And some of 'em are Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 13 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 based on family choices or just accidents. And race is one of those things that can either be, um, a rock, a heavy rock in your pack. Or it can lighten your load. And that's one of the ironic things about it is for my dad, it was probably a heavier rock, but for me, it lightened the load. It might have actually lightened the load, you know? And so as we-- As you-- And so as a result of that, his carrying a heavy rock and me having much lighter load, I owe him something. But more than that, I owe the next generation something too for that. And, you know, does that make sense? Visintainer: Yeah, that's a wonderful analogy. And something I've never heard phrased that way. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I think it's, it's uh, befitting somebody who was in the military to talk about <Jackson laughs> weight and backpacks. Jackson: Yeah, right, yeah. <laughter>, I guess, so <laughs>. Visintainer: Did you come up with the analogy when you were in the military,? Jackson: Yeah. Yeah, probably. I did. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. I was in you know, it is, uh, it's -- life is like that. Now, and you, and a lot of times, and once you get to be a certain age, and I was telling this young man that I met, he was very bold. He was in the high school, junior ROTC [Reserve Officers Training Corps] at an event a month or so ago, and he walks right up to me having, I was introduced as a general. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And here's this, you know, maybe 14 year-old kid. He was in the ninth grade. And I said, "You know what?" I said, uh, I asked him about his grades and all that. I said kind of, "You're lightening your load. You're an honor student. You wear that uniform well. You're doing athletics, keep doing that. Everything you do, it counts from the ninth grade on. I mean, that's when you're getting your GPA counts, you getting your PSATs, you're doing all these kinds of things that people are gonna judge your next opportunity on -- post high school." And says, "So, you young man are lightening your load, you know, so keep it going." Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 14 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Yeah. So it is kind of a, yeah. I guess it's military <laughs> speak. Can't help it <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Um, I just had one follow up question about, uh, about your drugstore sit-in. Well, actually, I guess I had a couple. What was the drugstore? Jackson: You know, I'm trying to remember the, because I don't want to-- we had a lot of Walgreens in that part of the country. So I think it was Walgreens at the time, that, uh, it was right at our bus stop. And, uh, yeah. Then they, they became quite a target for students, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's a, nowadays they don't even have the soda fountains in the drugstore like they did in those days, you know? But yeah, I'm pretty, I'm about 90% sure it was Walgreens. Because number one, because I don't remember any other of the drug stores that were there. And it was, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But-Visintainer: Did, uh, did you ever tell your parents? Jackson: Yeah. Well, at that time, dad was someplace else. I think dad was stationed in close to the North Pole in Greenland. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Yeah. And so we were in Houston for that stay. And, um... And I probably told my mother. When I was that [inaudible] age... I really, it was hard for me to imagine living beyond eighteen. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We lived in Houston. You know, we lived-- we were bused to school past the white high school and junior high into what you might call the ghetto. Fifth Ward in Houston. And it was nicknamed "Bloody Fifth" for good reason, because somebody was getting killed kind of routinely. It was a very violent part of Houston, Texas. And, uh, my junior high and eighth and ninth grade was in Fifth Ward. And my older brothers and sister, they went to Phyllis Wheatley [High School]. I went to E.O. Smith [Junior High] which was named after a African American poet. And, I was probably in a fight, like... I mean, here I was this Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 15 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 guy that didn't have an accent. And I was marked, even my teacher, I remember my English teacher mocking my, uh, "trying to talk like a Kennedy," she told me. She told the whole class, 'cause I was reading something and she stopped me. And she, "What are you trying to talk like a Kennedy?" I said, "This is the way we talk in my family." I didn't know this was any different, but yeah, coming to the south, you're talking different and you don't have their accent. And, uh, and so I was kind of a prime target for a while. And yeah. And fortunately I played football and you know, and I had two big bad older brothers. And so, but it was like-- you know, you had to fight. And then right in the middle of ninth grade, I moved to Oakland. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Which hardly <laugh>, is just that much better. <Jackson holds up fingers about an inch apart, laughs> But that was only two fights. So that was quick and easy. And fortunately we were all trained to box and stuff like that, so it turned out all right. But really when I was fourteen, fifteen, I thought eighteen would be, "Yeah. Eighteen's about right." You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so you, you, you were already, you know, so when I say I'm <laughs> seventy-three, you know, I'm a happy camper. <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: Exceeded expectations. <laughs>. Yeah. Visintainer: Um, I was curious about when your, when your father was deployed, you said he was deployed to Korea and was he deployed in World War II? Jackson: He was in World War II, but I was not even born, and so the war, he wasn't deployed. He had seven kids by the time Vietnam, so the Army wouldn't send him. You know, that would've been quite a burden. So he did not, well, he served during the Vietnam War in the early stages, he never deployed to Vietnam. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 16 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 The family member that got deployed to Vietnam was my older brother, Matt. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: He was, he was drafted. Uh, and yeah, the way it worked out was that my older sister had graduated from high school. I ended up being the first one to graduate from college, just 'cause my older sister, it wasn't the norm or the expectation. And she had gotten married and had a kid, so, and she's probably as smart or smarter than every one of us. And then Matt, my older brother, there wasn't the financials in the family and he had gone to [Jackson makes chopping motion with hand] four. Different. High schools. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Every year. And so, although he's a better athlete than I ever was, he was never recognized in one spot, scouted out by universities or anything. So he ended up going to Chico State [California State University, Chico] a year later on an English literature scholarship. Um, and because he was a year behind his peers, he didn't have the college credits necessary to avoid the draft. And so he got drafted. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And then he goes in the army, goes to Vietnam and gets really some disease and maybe even Agent Orange. Uh, he-- affected him very badly over there. And so he was medically evacuated from Vietnam to San Francisco. There was a big army hospital in San Francisco and eventually discharged, got his GI bill, went back to college, got his B.A., Got his master's degree, and became a dean of students up at Butte [California] Community College. So he lived a really good life. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Great kids, two outstanding kids. And then a terrific wife, Billie. Billie passed away a couple years ago, but she's just been selected, gonna have a big induction ceremony through the Chico State Hall of Fame. And so she, and here's his daughter is the CEO, Joy is the CEO. It's not the GRE but there's another graduate record thing, you know, and so Matt did well, so. Don, my older brother, short time in the Air Force, booted him out for whatever he did wrong <laughs>, you know, but I'm the only one that made it a career [inaudible]. So, uh, um, yeah. But, but mom was always that glue. Just like my wife Sue is the glue for my boys and who did most of the child raising. I had this big strong boxer-soldier dad that I really looked up to and was my lifetime hero. But mom was actually doing the hard work. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 17 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: And probably the same thing in my family in terms of, you know, dad's a Marine and a officer and doing his thing and going away and, and, but the military spouses who get left behind, they do a lot of the child raising, set the standards. And so when people say thank you for your service, they really ought to be talking to the spouses. <laughs> Visintainer: Well, and that's something I was kind of curious about in that, when, when somebody's deployed, and if there's, I guess this is kind of a complicated question that I'm formulating as I go along, so I apologize if it gets a little jumbled, but when somebody's deployed, like in your father's time, um, were there support services involved with the Army to help out, to help out the parents that were staying and raising children? Or were they more informal in nature? Jackson: They were very, very, very informal. Not, and I, quite frankly, I can't-- I can't say I have memories of during my father and mother's time that they had the support services which are ingrained in the services now. And even when I came in, to be honest, in [19]75, the military's attitude, the Marine Corps' attitude was probably, well if the, if the Marine Corps wanted you to have a, wanted you to have a spouse they’d have put her in your, in your sea bag when they issued you the gear. Was that in there? Okay. <laughs> And that was probably the attitude. It wasn't until the eighties that the Navy and the Marine Corps, and I'm not quite sure when the Army, but I'm sure about the same time with them, we started putting together really substantial programs. And first it, it revolved around volunteers and-- but organized in what they call the Key Volunteer Program. And in the Navy it was the Ombudsman Program. And, and, and that, and that was in the eighties. And in, in the, in the, um, 2000s, as we were getting more involved in the Middle East, they actually started hiring family counselors, Members that take, they literally took the place, for each battalion, they would have professional kind of family counselors. And so, and they still had the Key Volunteers, but then they paid people and they had, uh, it was presumed prior to that, that the wives, an officer's wife, the senior officer's wife, would take the lead whether she was-- wanted to or not. It was, it was presumed that that would happen or the senior enlisted wife would team up with her and they would take care of all the younger ones and all that. And there were just some women who were not, you know, not that social or did not want to do that, or were-- wasn't in their personality. So there was a lot. When I was a young commanding officer, a company, I knew if I was over in the Far East in Japan or something and with my whole company and Corporal Ramos' wife was about ready to have a baby here at Camp Pendleton I'd call my wife, buy some flowers for Corporal Ramos' wife, put his name on 'em and take 'em over to the base hospital and make sure she knows that he's thinking about her. And my wife was willing to do that, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so, and I would willingly <laughs> pay for it out of my pocket too. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 18 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: Uh, but it, it, it's, it is now much more formal and it's expected and it's expected in the military, and now you have a lot of, we probably have more daycare centers per capita than the, than regular society, you know? There's, I forget, there's a half a dozen or more daycare centers on Camp Pendleton. Miramar has theirs all the bases and have the childcare centers. And so I think that there's much more, the military has taken a, uh, realize happy wife, happy spouse. You're more likely to have a career, [inaudible] soldier, sailor, marine. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You're taking care of the family too. Visintainer: It makes sense in terms of retention and morale and all of that, yeah. Jackson: All of that. You know, one of the things I found is it translates in many ways to combat power. You know that no matter what happens to you, that your family's gonna be taken care of and you're gonna be taken care of. And so that's, that gives you strength, that gives every marine, every soldier, every sailor, that kind of strength. You know that I saw in other foreign armies that you got wounded and you're not killed you, you [shakes head]. So their soldiers weren't as aggressive. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Uh, they didn't have the same initiative to, you know, and it is not because they were less, you know, a man or less brave. It's just that they had that, well, there's no VA [Veteran's Administration], there's no, there's no widow's pension. There's no, you know. And so he's gotta be a little bit more careful, you know? So-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It does equate the combat power. Visintainer: I's a, it's a rock in your pack perhaps. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 19 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Yeah. In terms of success for the mission that you're about ready to accomplish. Visintainer: Yeah. Okay. Um, <Visintainer coughs> excuse me, you mentioned the Key Volunteer Program and so I, so I understand like the, you know, the purpose of a counselor or the purpose of a daycare-Jackson: Mm-hmm. Visintainer: But I was curious as to what the Key Volunteer Program, like what their purpose was, what types of activities they undertook, and as a support-Jackson: I, I think the main focus was to make sure if the families had a need, that it was taken care of while the service member was overseas. And a lot of times the wives would organize parties and picnics for the kids and, uh, things like that. Or they would exchange phone numbers so that you knew who to call in case of, you know, <laughs>, there's a rattlesnake in the garage the day after your husband left, you know, the car broke down <laughs> the day after your husband left. Um, uh, so, but the whole idea of the Key Volunteer Program was to make sure that the families knew where to go when they needed support, when the spouse was deployed overseas. Uh, and, uh, and they were literally volunteer in the most part. In the early days, you didn't get guys, it was mostly the wives, but now we have more you know, the, the... The military member may be the, the, the, the, the woman and the man is now the spouse that needs help when-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you. And so that was the whole point of the, um, the Key Volunteer Program: to bring them together, they knew there was a tight-knit family that would help take care of-- It was kind of like, uh, East Battalion had its own village, you know? And the village was designed to take care of, of all of the people that were left behind. Yeah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So yeah, Visintainer: That's, that's pretty interesting. I'd never, never heard of this, uh, program before. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 20 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: Yeah. It's a, it's a really good program. They professionalized the lead person at the battalion in about two thousand and three. A battalion's about a thousand Marines. Like on Camp Pendleton you have battalions and squadrons. Squadrons is the aviation equivalent of a battalion. And they would all have a senior lady, and they put, they actually had paid people do that. I think they're maybe toning that down a little bit with no war, but they still have the program. Uh, um, and, uh, yeah. Visintainer: <Visintainer coughs> Excuse me. Um, let's talk about how you decided to enlist. So I understand you were, you were graduated with a master's [degree] at this point. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: You were working and-Jackson: Well, let's see. I got married. Sue and I got married. We met at San Jose State [University]. Um, I had always aspired to be an officer. I thought I'd join the Army when I-- I was in ROTC just for a short while, at San Jose State in Army ROTC. And, it didn't sit well with all the other things that I was doing. But I still aspired to be an officer. Okay. I met my wife in an anatomy and physiology class in Spring of 1969. And, um, and it was a night class, so I would just walk her back to her sorority and I'd go down the street to my dorm. It was just a matter of safety and coming out of class after nine o'clock in an urban environment. And, and that was it. We didn't date or anything. I would just escort her. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, football player escorting pretty sorority girl home. And she's only two blocks from, or three blocks from where I was staying in the dorm. But the next fall, we were on campus and I met her on campus, just kind of bumped into each other again, not thinking much of that previous spring. And she said she had moved outta the sorority house, "come on over." So, <Jackson makes "I don't know" expression> mm-- you know, I was a little reluctant, you know, uh, blonde blue-eyed. And those days I wasn't dating blonde, blue-eyed <laughs> gals. So I recruited a couple more football players, Black, to come over and visit her and her friends, just so it would be-- And uh, son of a gun if the three football players and her three roommates all left and went to a party! <laughter> So there we were, you know, and, uh, we studied together and then we got to start getting together on Thursday nights just to study. My grades shot up <raises hand, laughs>, which was really good. And she was a home ec[onomics] major, and so she'd experiment with foods with me and being a football player, I could take all the calories she could pump out, you know. So I'd get an extra meal every day, <laughs> kind of, every Thursday, when we'd get together. And then finally by the end of that semester, or close to it, I said, "Are we an item?" You know? And we decided that we were an item. So 1970 rolls around, and we, we Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 21 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 decide to get permission from her side of the family. My side of the family reluctantly accepted the interracial dating, my dad being a Texan, that, that, you know, he had bad memories of that stuff. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And, uh, my mother was, she loved everybody no matter what. But her [Sue's] parents weren't real happy. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So the explosion went off and which actually drove us tighter together. We just wanted to date openly. Um, I often say that we had gone to see the movie, Guess Who's Coming To Dinner with Sidney Poitier... And, uh <laughs>. And when her parents found out about it, and I suddenly realized I was not Sidney Poitier. It wasn't gonna work out. But that sort of drove us together. And within, uh, four or five months, I just asked her to marry me. And, uh, because her family disowned her for the very fact that we'd gotten-- we were wanting to date. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they didn't want her to date. And I had never told her I loved her. Visintainer: Yeah. Wow. Jackson: We just wanted to date openly. And so... We uh, as the, as the, her world crowded in on her to try to break us up, it forced us together and me to be more defensive of her. And her-- she stood her ground. And uh, I once told my mother, "Well I don't know what love is, but I know what sacrifice is, and she has opted to date me," as opposed to a family that-- I mean, she's 21 years-old, you don't just give up your family. Her family gave up her, you know, and so, and that was just her mother and father by the way, not cousins or grandparents. Um, uh, and so. Uh, we got married. I asked her at Thanksgiving in 1970, "Hon, will you marry me?" You know, and she said, "When?" <laughs> I had no idea when <laughs>. I said, "semester break!" <laughs>. Jackson: It was my senior year. She was in grad school. And, uh, so I didn't have a job, but I'd just played my last football game the previous Saturday. And so the scholarship was gonna run out at the end of, uh, at graduation. So I was on time, Four years you know, because four years scholarship, you know, and, uh, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 22 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 so, uh... I s--, but I didn't have any rings or anything. So I go, um, but there was one alum, and this is another reason why I will have to reach back. There was one alum, Paul Barracker, little Jewish guy. He owned, I thought he only owned one jewelry store. He ended up owning four. But this little guy. And I told her [Sue], I asked her on Thanksgiving to marry me. And I said -- when we get back, we were visiting her sister in Sacramento -- "When we get back to San Jose, we'll go to Paul's Jewelers, downtown San Jose, and we'll get rings." Now, I didn't have a nickel. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: <laughs>. That's the ironic self-confident naive, uh, kid I was, I guess. And so Monday rolls around and we go down to Paul's, which is just, you could walk off campus, to Paul's-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And Paul's in the store. It's one of these stores that, you know, straight in downtown, it's jewelry on this side, jewelry on that side, just walk back to the counter. Very narrow store. Paul's in the back and he sees me come and I, you know, he was an alum who would come to football practice, sometimes fly to the games on the same plane as the team. So that's how I knew him. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: As this alum who supported football, not as a friend. I mean, he was old enough to be obviously my dad or, or, or maybe even older than that. And Paul comes running out, I mean, little bitty arms. I could wrap my hand around his bicep, close my fingers. Right. And he's in a football stance. "Tony so good to see you!" "Paul, hold it!" He's really enthusiastic. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Old European kind of an accent. And, uh, he-- I said, "Paul, hold it. I want you to meet my fiancé, Sue." And he said, "Oh, so pleased to meet you, Sue!" Does this double handshake. I'll never forget this. And then he goes, I said, "Well, what are you doing?" I said, "Paul, I came to buy, uh, our wedding rings and engagement ring." He says, “Oh, good! Good, good, good!" I said, "But Paul, I don't have any money, so if you hire me, I'll start to work." He says, "Okay! Okay, okay. You stop bothering me. Go back, talk to my secretary, fill out the application. You can come to work. Sue, you can buy anything in the store." <laughs>. So I got, I got a job selling jewelry through <Visintainer laughs>, through grad school, paid for those rings. I come to find out just a few years ago that Sue gave him a $25 down payment or something, but she just told me that. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 23 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But I worked for Paul. He taught me all about sapphires and all the diamonds and his jeweler, the guy who made some of the jewelry, he would teach me. He was from France. And he would, we had, I'd give him some English lessons, and now he liked my accent because it was flat. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, it didn't come with a New York or a twang or anything like that, accent. And so we exchanged a little bit of, he would teach me about clarity and diamonds, and I would clarify some words he didn't understand. Okay. But I did that for about a year and a half. And I also, uh, coached at a junior college -football -- and realized that I didn't want to be a football coach. But I had finished my master's degree, started my PhD at UC [University of California] Santa Cruz in history. And just, and I was teaching a class -- History of Third World Peoples -- as a grad student. And I just said, "Stop." <laughs>, "I gotta, I gotta get on with life." Sue was a high school teacher. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I actually went to work for an insurance company. So time is marching on. In the back of my mind, I still want to be a military officer. I still, war is going on in Vietnam, and I'm sitting here now, I'm in the insurance business. I'm making a lot of money. We bought a house in what became Silicon Valley. I can't even afford that house now. But bought a house. She got tenured. I was making a lot of money in the insurance business. My boss was really glad that I decided, you know, again, I was offered several jobs. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, when I finally decided to work, he tried to recruit me right outta college. And my, before I-Right when Sue and I got married, he tried to get me to go to work for him at his insurance company, and I'd turned it down, but now here I was a year or two later and I was working for him and he was really good. It was like having somebody, being in a master's degree class, the Michael Anderson Agency with Penn Mutual Life. And this guy, Mike Anderson, was just a terrific teacher and mentor. And, and so I got off to fast start under his wing in insurance, and I was the consummate kind of, you know, I'd just been the captain of the football team, and all that [inaudible]. I'd been in San Jose for five years and all that stuff. So I knew a lot of people. And so I could contact them. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 24 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: But one day I was with a bunch of clients in, uh, in, uh, Candlestick Park, the old Giants, San Francisco Giants watching the Giants and Dodgers play in May of 1975. And across the screen, the-- from days on end, you saw pictures in the news of Marines and soldiers evacuating people from Saigon [now Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam] and helicopter, dramatic, people holding onto the rails of helicopters trying to get out as the North Vietnamese took over the country. And the same thing was happening in Camb-Cambodia, and Phnom Penh. And so, uh, I... And an American ship, the U.S.S Mayaguez had been captured by the Khmer Rouge, a communist group, and we didn't know where the sailors were from that ship. And across the screen at the ballgame <Jackson holds hands in front of self and widens them>, kind of the old ticker tape kind of thing. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: "US Marines, recapture the Mayaguez." Said the thing. And I'm sitting here with hotdogs and beer and entertaining clients at a game. So the next day I put on my suit and I went to a recruiter. Didn't tell my wife. He goes, "Hey, you go to college?" And I said, yeah. And he said, "Well, you need to go see the officer selection offer in Alameda." So I took all my tests, signed up all in one day, came home and told her <laughs>. I remember the guy, he goes, "Do, you wanna, you want me to come home? I got a great movie we can show your wife. About what you're about ready to experience." I said, "You don't want me in my house tonight," <laughter>, "When I tell her what I just did." So I became private Anthony Jackson for a while before I went off OCS [Officer Candidate School]. But I was twenty-six, I was running out of time, and these guys were serving overseas, risking their lives. And here I had done nothing to really validate what I thought. And my idealistic view was to validate my citizenship and ensure that you could never deny me. As my father did, as my little brother did. So-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I still promised my wife it would only be for three years. Said, "Three honey. That's it." I actually got out and went into the reserves for about a year in keeping that three-year promise, which really, I was kind of sliding. I didn't realize I was gonna, eh long-- I found that the Marine Corps was my calling. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And even I got out, went to work, another high-paying job. Got, they gave me a brand new car with Kaiser Aluminum & Chemical, and sent me to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. But I just couldn't believe I'd be working. Uh, and I, so I joined a reserves unit to stay in touch, and then I realized that I started living for that reserve weekend. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 25 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And not what I was doing with Kaiser and, uh, and money wasn't important to me. And so I asked the Marine Corps to take me back, and the rest is kind of history at [inaudible] point. Visintainer: Had you ever expressed to Sue before you, uh, before you enlisted, that you had this idea? Jackson: Yeah, she knew that. She knew that that was kind of in my bones, but I really wanted-- I, in the first couple years with that flare-up in her family over our marriage, I wanted to make sure we had a solid marriage. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Before I all of the sudden ran off and left her, you know. I really did. I think that was why I delayed for so long, uh, was, you know, that was a pretty big sacrifice on her part. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And it was never healed back up. I never, I had never met my-- I met my mother-in-law, but I never did meet my father-in-law. Although we did have a civil conversation on the phone one time. But that was the only time I even talked to him. And that was in like 1978. So, um, and then he passed away. As if-- it was ironic because he and I should have been really good friends. We're, you know, he's a naval officer. He was a World War II destroyer escort. And he had, he'd graduated from UC Berkeley, their ROTC program. He was down here in San Diego when Pearl Harbor was attacked, on his reserve duty and mobilized right away. And they sailed into Pearl Harbor just the week after. You know, he was still smoldering. Things were still, they were still trying to find guys that were in capsized ships that were still alive. And, um, and he kept a diary. And, a part of that time, he had great distinguished service during World War II, became the CO [Commanding Officer] of a ship. He was a junior ensign when Pearl Harbor happened, but he had his own ship by the time the war ended. And, uh, and then he retired as a Navy-captain in the Navy, in the reserves, started his own business in, uh, he became a plumbing contractor, not a-- the guy that supplies all the contractors with all their gear. And during the boom years of growth in the Bay Area and made millions. And of course my wife probably didn't know how many millions he made, but she was disinherited. And that was, that was, uh, <laughs> her sister got it all when he passed away. And that's probably how we found out. But, um, and so, yeah. She's, she's tough <laughs>. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 26 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: You know, and, and held her ground and, uh, and it has been a source of strength and you don't really recognize all those things. She is motivating. She won't take credit, but she has been a prime motivating factor in my life. Um, uh, I mean she has her own, she has her own opinions, her own thoughts, et cetera. But, you know, you want to, you want to do well for those who believe in you kind of a deal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So you know, I've always wanted, I mean, I've taken great risk at times without thinking about that, but I think one of the things that's always in the back of my mind is that, you know, I do owe this woman something <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, so don't screw it up, buddy. <laughter> But that means certainly you have to be a person of strength, especially if you're in an organization like the Marine Corps. You know, you're not a yes person. I mean, you can't be a yes person. I mean, you, you, you, you have to gauge when you should engage and you have to engage when you should just, maybe just shut up, but be willing to take on the right fights, you know? And sometimes you win 'em, sometimes you lose 'em, but don't back down until it's time to back down and then have the judgment to know when it's time to back down, you know. So it's kind of a give and take thing, because sometimes you're the boss and sometimes you're the junior guy that has to execute the plan. Visintainer: And having that judgment, I think is really difficult when you're, uh, so invested in something. Jackson: Yeah. Visintainer: And I imagine if you're in the Marine Corps and you're in a situation where you need to have that judgment, you're very invested in it. Jackson: Yeah. And, uh, and I've been on those sides of that, you know. I've lost an argument and then had to be the presenter, you know? Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 27 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, you're the guy that, uh, "Wait a minute! I was the only one in the room that objected." "Yeah. But you're, you're the communicator." <laughs> "You're gonna communicate it up the chain, right?" "Wait a minute, I'm-- there were twelve guys that agreed with you, sir." "Yeah, Tony, but you were the most articulate, you're presenting it! <laughs> Just make sure you win!" <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: "When you present it up the chain, you know?" So I've been on that side of the coin. And, you know, you-- And the other thing is, I did appreciate the Marine Corps. That the Marine Corps appreciates strength and not weakness, not, you know, it appreciates the fact that you will pick the right time and place. You know, you don't want to embarrass the boss, but will you challenge him? And so you have to have that combination of moral courage and judgment and communication skills to win over when it's not <laughs>, it may not be a smooth subject. Okay? I think that is both been an asset and may have cost me a little bit of something at some point, but not nothing that-- I mean, my career exceeded my expectations. I'm not a Naval Academy guy. I'm not an ROTC guy. I didn't come out as a 21 year-old. I came in as second oldest guy in my OCS platoon. There was one other army guy that was a former soldier that was older than me, but I was, I was already as a-- the same age as my first bosses, my first commanding officers when I was a second lieutenant. And so I was always kind of -- agewise -- I think that was an edge, actually, that lightened my load because I had a sense of humor and I wasn't afraid of the process. <laughs> I wasn't afraid of the process. Yeah. Because you had to. Yeah. When you go to OCS or recruit training, like down here in San Diego, you just have to drop who you are. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: For that twelve weeks. You gotta just drop who you are and accept that you're gonna be a mold. You get to be who you are once you get out of that process, you know, of them breaking you down and building you back up. So I think my age was actually a benefit. Because of my body was still, uh, easily willed into Marine Corps shape. So, yeah. And having a dad who was a sergeant in the army probably helped me a lot too. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I already knew how to make a military bed, <laughs> you know, to inspection standards. <laughs> We did that before we went to Sunday school. We got inspected. You know, it's really funny about not remembering this as a kid. You're standing in front of your bunk just like I did at OCS, and your dad's inspecting the shine on your shoes and the crease in your trousers and stuff like that, you know, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 28 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 <laughter>. And here you are, you're ten, you're ten years old, and dad's throwing a quarter on the bed to see if it bounces. The bed's that tight. The bed has to be tight enough of that coin to bounce up, you know? So Yeah. We got those inspections on Sundays. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Boys lined up <laughs>. Uh, yeah. But, uh, yeah. So, yeah. So it's been what? Sue and I have been married, yeah, we just celebrated our 52nd [wedding anniversary], you know-Visintainer: Congratulations. Jackson: Whew. Yeah. That's, uh, it's been, it's been a road. It's been a good road. 'Cause we, you know, we, we, we have a lot of things. I tell her that the reason why we're a successful marriage is because we have absolutely nothing in common. <laughs> You know? I'm a hunter and she's a doggone near herbivore. You know, not quite, but <laughs>, you know, uh, yeah. And we, we, we have a lot of, a lot of differences, which make it kind of good because she has her leans, and I have my leans, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. It gives you space to be your own person and you can come together around commonalities. Jackson: Right, right. And so, and then we'll come together for like a trip to the Sierras [Sierra Nevada mountain range]. Well I'll do fishing, and she'll do her native plant art, her botanical art. She likes to do that. And, uh, and so it's really kind of interesting. They'll come back at the end of the day, she'll show me her drawings and I'll show her my one little fish. <laughter> So, yeah. But, uh, Visintainer: Excuse me. So, um, so you've had a really long and distinguished career and I don't think we have time to go through it in like, phase, you know, and, and every phase of it. So I'd like to skip forward just a bit towards the end of your military career. Jackson: Okay. Visintainer: And talking about the work that you did, as I understand it, as the commander of, marine camps, Marine Corps, Installations West. Jackson: Right. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 29 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Um, and so this is a, this is a big deal, right? Jackson: This is the culmination of, uh, um, all of my general officer assignments were big deals, I thought. I mean, they were shocking the amount of responsibility a nation was willing to give a person and this special trust and confidence that you build up over, you know, twenty-eight, twenty-nine years and they finally make you a general. Um, so, uh, if you don't mind, I'll talk about the first assignment. I was, uh-here, I was selected for my first star as Brigadier General. And I was given the assignment to be the Deputy Commanding General for Marine [Corps] Forces Central Command. MARCENT in shorthand. So, which meant that I was gonna be the deputy for first General [Wallace "Chip"] Gregson, then General [John F.] Sattler, and then general, I had three generals who became my bosses, general [James N.] Mattis. Um, so in that capacity, my headquarters, I had two headquarters, one in Tampa, Florida, where Central Command is, and one in, Bahrain, which is on the Arabian Gulf near Saudi Arabia. And, my main job was to ensure that commanders and marines in contact on the battlefield had what they need. You're, you're the link for, the commander needs this, and industry makes it, and your headquarters. You were the judge on whether: did they really need it? And if they really needed it -- which I always agreed with the commander on the battlefield, because he knew his needs -- does the industry have it? And if headquarters is fighting it, tell them to get it, we're buying it. And I had that budget too, and so I would visit the battlefields and visit the commanders, uh, both Afghanistan and Iraq during that two year assignment. And they, and, and the-- so being in and out of the battlefield, it was different than being deployed. I had been deployed to Iraq as a colonel, but as a general, I was in and out. And I would also do diplomatic stuff in Egypt for the United States military. In Egypt, in Pakistan, and Bahrain and Oman. And I would go around and visit the military commanders and my peers. And, um, but the most critical thing I did was teaming up with a scientist named Susie Alderson, who is from right here in Fallbrook. And we, the battlefield, the commanders were wanting a vehicle that was more durable and could sustain the improvised explosive device explosions [IEDs]. And we just did not have that. Uh, we had the vehicle that our, our, our explosive ordinance disposal teams, they had a vehicle called a mine resistant, ambush protected vehicle, an MRAP. And if they got hit by a mine, it, because these guys went out into mine fields all the time and diffused them, or blew 'em up or whatever. They had this one special vehicle that the South Africans had developed that MRAP, but the [US armed] services weren't, they were sold on the Humvee for some reason. We were taking horrific casualties from these improvised explosion devices. Taking off arms, legs, killing people. And so when I was in Afghanistan, I had a United, I visited this United Nations mine clearing team, and they invited me to ride in one of these South African-built MRAPs as they were gonna clear mines. And here this general, my aide was a young captain. He did not want to get in that vehicle, but they had kind of like, "come on for the ride," okay sort of challenge you. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm in a helmet, flack jacket. I've even got ballistic protection where it really counts <laughs>, you know, and, uh, so, and these guys were dressed much like you. Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 30 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. Jackson: And so I took-- accepted their ride, and we hit probably seven mines, more? Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: But they were all -- fortunately -- anti-personnel mines. And so we got rattled and we could hear the shrapnel hitting the sides of the vehicle, but we were okay. But-Visintainer: What did that feel like when you hit a mine that first time? Jackson: Well, this vehicle was pretty solid, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: I mean, what it, what it just, it kind of set off alarms and gives you a little adrenaline rush. And it was kind of like if you'd had, you ever had a rock hit the windshield in front of your car? The way it smacks that hard. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Yeah. It's like a bunch of those at once. <laughs> Except they're hitting metal, so you-- And I could see our chase! They gave us a chase vehicle just in case we got stranded out there, you know, vehicle breakdown. And I could see he was hitting them too. So it wasn't doing any, anybody, any good. The Soviets had laid a lot of mines and they were just, they were just horrible in Afghanistan, 'cause they put 'em in these farmers' fields so they wouldn't grow, couldn't grow crops. And that's what the UN was doing there, clearing them as we were fighting Taliban or whoever else. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so I came home. I had this passion to get this vehicle, and I had, but I wasn't gonna be able to do it. Generals, the Army had refused, the Marine Corps had refused to get this vehicle. There was a whole, I didn't realize this fight was going on. I just knew my experience. And I had seen them before. General Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 31 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Gregson had showed me one. And here comes Susie Alderson. She had been in Iraq for a number of months, and she on her own initiative, she was a scientist assigned to me. And so she had been over there. Um, mine was a new command, so they had just set up MARCENT to handle the Middle East. And so I was the first permanent. So here I had this scientist assigned to me, and I hadn't tasked her with anything mm-hmm. But she had been over there and she did a study on survivability in various vehicles. So she had all the data laid out, if you're in this kind of, um Humvee you're gonna get killed. If you're in this kind, ehhh, there's a 80% chance you're gonna get killed. You're gonna get your legs blown off. If you're in this truck, this-- but if you're in this MRAP that the improvised explosive of the [inaudible] explosive warning disposal teams, you're most likely only gonna feel concussion. Not a death. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So I said, "Susie, great! That fits my passion." I called my staff together, put Susie and them together. Said, "You got ten PowerPoint slides, and we're gonna present this to the three-star [general]. So you [inaudible] no more than ten, they w-- general officers will fall asleep if you got more than ten PowerPoint slides. Do not do that." So I left the room and left her to my staff to power-- come up. They came in a couple hours later, "Sir, this is the brief." And I said, "Perfect." I didn't make a change to it. Susie and my chief of staff put this, it was beautiful. I called up on a secure VTC [video teleconference] because my boss was out here at Camp Pendleton, and here I was in Tampa. Got him on a little secure video of the day and told Susie, "Susie, you're the briefer. The generals have never won this argument, but you got the right voice." And, so she briefed it and they, General Sattler stopped it, or slide number seven. Next thing you know, we called up the commandant, okay, he got it in three slides. And I started buying these vehicles. I mean <laughs>, and I won't bore you with the technical part of it, but Susie's data got those vehicles in within six or seven months. I mean, I sent her around to all the big vehicle manufacturers in the US said, it's gotta have this transmission, it's gotta have this drivetrain, it's gotta have this engine. And these are the three different prototypes that you can build. You know, the John Deeres of the world that build heavy equipment, they changed assembly lines. They were happy to pitch in. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, the first 300 [IED] hits in 2006, no Marine Corps deaths. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: So Susie becomes the mother of the MRAP and gets the highest decoration that a civilian can get in peace time in the, in the Department of Navy. So that was a big deal. And then as a two, that was as a one-star, that was one of the best effects as a one. As a two-star. I get assigned as the, uh, we have these four star commands, combatant commands is what they're called. One for the Pacific, one for Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 32 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Europe, one for South America, um, Pacific, European Command, Southern Command... And, we're gonna develop another one. And it's US Africa Command. And I'm chosen to be the first Director of Military Operations and Logistics, the J3 and the J4 for that command, headquartered outta Stuttgart, Germany and our focus would be the continent of Africa and all the associated islands. Minus Egypt. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: We kept Egypt in Central command. And, uh, so, uh, <holds arms wide> it's brand new! There's nothing there. I mean, we're in rehabbed Army World War II buildings that belonged to the Wehrmacht in 1930. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Its [inaudible] journey. And so we gotta build this new command. And there were two two-stars there that were, we had a four-star boss, uh, General Walls [William E. Ward] and uh, and the Air Force, his [Wards's] chief of staff was an Air Force two-star. But I was the Director of Military Operations, which, you know, is-- I mean, you're just, you're thinking about it for every military event that goes on in the, in the continent of Africa that the US is involved in, you're gonna be the director and the advisor to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the president, the National Security Council, and the President of the United States. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You're gonna be the direct guy. And my boss was the kind of guy that, uh, general Ward, when I said Walls-- General Ward was the kind of guy, he liked to do all the diplomatic high stuff, flying around, meeting with heads of state and senior military. And he left the operational kind of running of things to me. Which I liked, but it kind of was, uh, it was interesting. Sometimes I would just wonder, okay, if we do this one, so probably the most prominent one would be in, um the, the pirates off the coast of Africa, off of Somalia. And, uh, and we had, and they generally speaking stayed away from US ships. But they would take these ships. These guys were once fishermen whose fishing industry... I mean the guys who actually were the pirates, not the businessmen in London and Somalia, the kingpins in Somalia, the warlords, but the ones who executed, the actual pirates, you know, they would get word from London who's flagship, what cargo was on it, what the crew was, all that would come out of London. And they'd filter it into Somalia. Visintainer: So there's somebody in London doing research to let them know what's headed their way? Wow. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 33 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. And so, and they know what insurance company and all this, and these guys had been fishermen, but the industrial fishing of China or Korea or Japan had just about depleted their waters. So they could not-- and so you had an understanding from an intelligence standpoint of why there was this piracy, these guys who could execute it. And they were just the lower end of the whole international cabal. ButVisintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, um, but when they captured the Maersk Alabama, uh, which was a U.S. Flagship. <shakes head> No way. 'Cause we weren't gonna negotiate with those guys. So-Visintainer: When was this? Jackson: This was 2008. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: They captured the Maersk Alabama, probably the spring. With a U.S. crew on it. And, uh, so, um... let me think. Yeah, I think that was under President Bush. Let me think for a second. 2009? Yeah, it was 2009. I think that was, I think it was actually one of the first decisions that I had to get out of President Obama. So that had to be 2009. And so it was very early in his term. So it was either late winter or early spring of 2009. And there was one guy, uh, the crew overpowered most of the pirates themselves. Without a gun fight. But, a shot was fired. One of the pirates was injured. And, uh, three of 'em captured the captain, of the ship, Captain [Richard] Phillips, and lowered a life boat and got off the ship. They made a movie outta this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, um, and, uh... So now we had, they had a hostage. We had the ship back, but they had an American hostage. And so myself, um, Admiral [William H.] McRaven was the head of our Joint Special Operations Command out of Fort Bragg [now Fort Liberty] here. So he had the Navy Seals and all the special ops guys. But they're, it was Africa's, AFRICOM's territory. My boss's out galivanting. So McRaven and I, we had the [Navy] Seals put on standby and they started rehearsing. And we had -- it's amazing -- we do several rehearsals on paper and drills. We had done a rehearsal of this on paper the year before. And so we kind of knew what the plan would be, you know? We didn't know how it [would] end, the very end of it, but we knew how we would get the right forces to the point that they could execute a mission. And then once they were at that point, it was up to them exactly how, but getting them from the States to-- Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 34 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 so McRaven and I reviewed the plan, called up the, the Joint Chiefs, the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman [of the Joint Chiefs of Staff], and briefed the plan. And we both agreed that we had a good plan to get the Navy Seals to be able to get the, the captain back. And we got pretty fast approval from the president. I think that's what we were all surprised 'cause he's a young senator we were all grizzly old admirals and generals older than the president, you know? And so we didn't have a lot of confidence 'cause these things are time sensitive, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And, uh, we, you know. You know it ended sadly in one way, because we killed all three of the pirates. Killed three of 'em. The one guy that survived was wounded when the crew took over. And so he, he was medevacked to one of our ships prior to... And we, Captain Phillips, we brought him home and it was it. So that was one, um, of a significant event. But I guess the thing is, is that you're making these life and death decisions. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That, you know, I would often tell myself that, "Hey, you have to look yourself in the mirror. And then when you get to the pearly gates, he's the only one that can pass judgment on your, on your judgment." You know, because there's been a couple of circumstances where, you know, you've directly impacted whether or not people have lost their lives or you've taken life. And so, uh, it's-- it's just one of those things and there's certain people that have to make those hardcore decisions and to think that you're in that position. And so after two years of doing that, which was a real from the bottom up, creating a command and all of the, I mean, <laughs> bringing tech, I mean we're, we're talking about copper wires that were put in by the Germans in the 1930s under Hitler that we're pulling out and pulling fiber optic cable on. So we're literally building buildings and running this command and making those kinds of decisions and other decisions which have national significance, you know. And then I was the first ordered to, or to go to Baghdad [Iraq] to be the chief of staff for our forces in Iraq for General [Raymond T.] Ordierno. And, but my boss, General Ward, he'd have had to let me go early, but he had, he had become so, uh, reliant on me -- and it was a new command -- and the Marine Corps promised him a full two years that he would have me, because they had to convince him to take a Marine. He's an Army four-star, and they had to convince him to put a Marine in that very position. And he, and he took me, you know, he probably had some young Army two-star that he would've liked to put in there, but he took me in on his command. And so when the Marine Corps said, "Hey, if you leave six months early, you can go back to war." And which from a, from a Marines standpoint, it would've been best for me to go back to Baghdad. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 35 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And be the chief of staff for General Ordierno, that would open up more opportunities as a flag officer, more senior rolls. But to get stationed at Camp Pendleton, my wife's a Californian. It was the alternative. So when General Ward objected to me leaving six months early, it became, uh, the fallback was the Marine Corps assigned me to be the Commanding General for Marine Corps Installations, West. MCI West, which included seven Marine Corps bases out west, to be the senior guy and be stationed in my wife's hometown in a place where we had owned homes in the past. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Great place for my kids to go to school. And, and so, and my kids had already, I had in 2004... In 2002, my oldest son graduated from Fallbrook High. He got, we came here in [19]98 and he-- my wife said, "I don't know where you're gonna be for the next four years, but we're going to be here as the kids go to one school." Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And so Brian was on his 10th or 11th school then going into the ninth grade. And so I deployed to Japan in 2002 as a colonel. And then my other son, Blaine was gonna graduate in 2004. And so I went overseas and the family stayed on base at Camp Pendleton. And then I came back and from the Far East, 'cause I didn't do the initial march to Baghdad. And I joined the unit at Camp Pendleton and we're ordered back to Iraq. And the theme went on, "I don't know where you're gonna be, but we're gonna be here." So Blaine graduated in 2004 from Fallbrook High. He got all his four years at one school. And so they were already locked in. And the wife, when I went over to Japan, I left her to, uh... She was, had chosen some land five acres in Fallbrook in 2000. Yeah. 2000. She chose five acres of this <holds hands out, palms up>. "There's nothing here, honey." She says, "Well, I'm designing a house with an architect." I said, "Great! <Visintainer laughs>. Then I got ordered overseas <laughs> and left her to build a house. And so I departed. I came home to help her move in to a house from the base to this house that she designed with an architect. And she interviewed five or six general contractors and hired one and stayed on the work site. I was in, doing things for the nation in Japan, Korea, and Philippines. And I came back home and helped her move in and then came back from a year without family and was here for four or five months. And we got redeployed the whole, all the, most of the combat Marines at Camp Pendleton went back to Iraq in the Al Anbar Province. And I was the Plans Officer, kind of responsible for getting all the beans, band aids, bullets, people over there and married up with their equipment on a timeline, and then be the last man to <laughs> to, to, arrive. And I remember getting there and sitting in the, getting down, getting ready to eat a meal as my host was showing me where I was gonna sleep that night and all that. And we get a bunch of incoming rounds and the whole chow hall emptied out, two of us are sitting there. And I said, "Well, there's no point in running. You might run into one <laughs>, you might run into incoming." So we went ahead and finished our meal while the stuff was coming down. You know, <laughs>, it's random. Visintainer: Yeah. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 36 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Jackson: You know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: It's random. And so, when I got stationed back here, the wife had come to live with me when I, we finally got to live together. That was, there was that time period from 2002 to 2007 that we never really lived together. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Because I was in Tampa. She stayed here with the boys, and then they both started college. And, and I got orders to go overseas to Africa command in Stuttgart. And I said, "Hey, it's your home country. Would you like to come with me?" So she came over there for the year and a half or so. And the boys were going to college and doing what college-aged guys do without parents. Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: To provide any guidance. Jeez. And then, so when I got stationed, uh, the fallback position from not going over again to Baghdad was here. It was beautiful for family. And I knew that that would be my twilight, my last tour in the Marine Corps. So from 2009 to late 2011, I got to be the commanding general for, we have our mountain warfare training center up in Bridgeport, California. We have our Marine Corps... The real main Marine Corps ground combat center out of 29 Palms [California]. Yuma has our air station, Yuma Arizona. Miramar [Marine Corps Air Station, in San Diego], Camp Pendleton, and the Air Station on Camp Pendleton. And Barstow [Marine Corps Logistics Base, Barstow California] was the seventh one. So you're kind of the, you're kind of the governor is the way I equate it. And each one of those is a city, or in case of Camp Pendleton, several cities in a county. And so they're, they have their commanding officer, a colonel. And, so I'm basically the overseer for those to make sure they have the resources to do their job. And fortunately for me, it was the beginning of the Obama era where the Economic Recovery Act was, uh, they were looking for projects and the money was there. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: To fund a lot of things. And so new hospital at Camp Pendleton, well, I got that new chow hall, new barracks, new childcare centers, all that kind of stuff. I was getting billions of dollars during my watch to build that stuff. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 37 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so it was, uh, it was a good time. I've told these young Marines now that, well, it's not gonna be like that for a while. That was during a war. And the funding was there. We had a happy Congress and they weren't squabbling over money for the military, but as soon as the wars die down, money to the military becomes scarce. Um, so, but, uh, so that was a good assignment. I would, I would say that it was, it was a little bit different than my operational time as a general officer, but we had a lot of impact. Visintainer: So this is really interesting. And I think it's, it's kind of interesting how, maybe if I'm, if I'm understanding you correctly, maybe it wouldn't have been your first choice. Jackson: Yeah. It wouldn't have been my first choice as a, yeah-Visintainer: But in some ways it works out really nicely. Jackson: Yeah! Visintainer: To be around family-Jackson: Because I get to be around family. I get to be-- I meet this university again. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know, I never, when I, when I left, when I left here in 1986, I mean, there was nothing here. This was a stinky old chicken farm. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Uh, you know, and, uh, when I come back, your [university] president is Karen Haynes, right? Visintainer: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 38 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Mm-hmm. Jackson: And her husband, gentleman Jim Mickelson is on the staff and doing what he's doing with ACE program, ACE Scholars [Services, a program for foster youth at CSUSM]. And I'm the commanding general over there. And I'm a guy with war credentials and all that kind of stuff. And, uh, and they invite me over here. And, uh, and I'm just shocked that, you know, I'd driven by a couple times on 78 and seen the building there. And, but she [Haynes] invited me to lunch and then her husband drove me around his little golf cart, you know, to campus, and I'm in uniform. And, you know, California's weird. Southern California, this uni-- our uniforms are really welcome. But Northern California is not the same place, you know. Um, and, uh, and I, and so I, she took me over and showed me the nascent Veteran Center that it was then, not what this is now. And it was kind of really a good experience and to meet Karen and see her leadership, which I would compare with any general that I'd ever served with or-Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And I've served with some of the best this nation has to offer. And, uh, so, so, um... It's kind of interesting that I could not develop the relationship at San Jose State. I tried to, I mean of course distance was an enemy. Yeah. You know, but they kept changing leadership. Even now, I think they're in search of another president. And that's five or six presidents in, in-- I visited the campus when I was on active duty, a one-star. And giving presentations, this one doctor there, Dr. Jonathan Ross, he was really interested. I funded a little books and furniture for their library. He had a military history library set up in the history department. And so, and I was funding a scholarship and I wasn't get-- there was no feedback. There was no feedback. Except for Jonathan. He would try, and he still sends me emails every now and then, but the university was really like... But anyway, I wasn't gonna work when I retired at first, you know? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Okay. I certainly wasn't gonna be a commuter to San Diego and the freeways just like trying to get here today. I said, ah, I forgot there's construction. I should have went this way and that way and, uh, but, um... But, I really hit it off with that, uh, with the leadership that was here, and I retired and I was sitting around, enjoying trying to be a gardener, thinking about my next trip, doing this and that. And I turned down several nice jobs, mainly for my wife because she didn't want me to work, and I was, you know, sixty, about ready to get Social Security, max out Social Security, and then <laughs>, you know, so why work? And Karen called and said, "Hey, how would you like to be on our foundation board?" And I said, okay. Man. Was that? <makes gesture like casting a fishing rod> I mean, she hooked me for, she had me set up. And I thought, hey, yeah. And I was on several boards, and so-- none of 'em paid. And, and I was gonna stay that way. And I'd bought my RV [recreational vehicle]. That was my retirement gift to myself, you know, nice. On that Mercedes chassis, looking good, driving down the freeway, camping out, fishing. And we did enjoy it. We do still have that. So we still enjoy it. And, I got calls from the governor's office. You know the boards were kind of pretty demanding anyway, and California State Parks was in a Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 39 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 horrible position. They had money that they couldn't account for. It was mishandled. It wasn't stolen, thank goodness. Nobody lined their pockets with it, but it was making the headlines and, and, and I couldn't believe that Parks was so screwed up. <Jackson's phone rings>. Visintainer: If you want, I can pause this. Jackson: I'll just stop. No, this is.. It's amazing how these people get your number. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: My kids would text, my wife would text, you know, but these people will uh, are clever <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. So that would've been around 2012 if I-Jackson: Yeah. That was two thousand, yeah, twelve. Yeah. So, uh, and I'm just, I was in-- I was kind of amazed. We have no idea what the civilian sector pays for jobs in the military. As a general officer, you're basically working for nothing. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Because you've, you've maxed out the retirement scale, and because you can retire when you hit 30 years, you get 75% of your base pay. When you, in two and a half years, every year there after, so I was at 36 and a half years, so you'd imagine that I'm 75%, two and a half years times, and so I was already at 95, 97%, something like that. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, you're, you are working because you love what you do. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 40 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Yeah. I mean, you're, you're, you're totally into what you're doing and it takes care of your family and all that. So I really didn't want to work. There was one job that I might have taken, and that was when the Chancellor for the UC system asked me if I would like to apply to be the President of CSU Maritime Academy. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Up in Vallejo. And that was in the spring, only two months after I had retired from the Marine Corps. And it was just, it would've just been the wrong time. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But our, but I did accept the Rockefeller Family Fund. I got to be known for some of the speeches that I gave, rather, now that I've seen the video, <laughs> rather impassioned speeches about why we go to war, to a group of engineers and scientists, in particular, this one speech. And I was still in uniform and giving that speech, and I told them that, I just asked the audience of hundreds. I said, "Why is it that we're at war in the Middle East?" And you could hear the word oil echo out. You know? And, uh, and, uh, and I told 'em it was their responsibility to take us off of being dependent so we don't have to send our men and women overseas to bleed, you know, and I didn't realize they were videoing the damn thing. And it pops up all over the internet, right. <laughs> So, and my job as MCI West, I mean, this is the military is a multi-billions of dollar industry in California. And as the commanding general of MCI West, you had access to the governor and Governor [Arnold] Schwarzenegger when I first got there, Governor [Jerry] Brown, later, you would meet with them once or twice a year. If there's any issues, like, you know, there's a state park on Camp Pendleton, it's one of the most profitable parks in the state park system. So this, it was good. They got the park for a $1 lease of several miles of beach, you know, and that was gonna come up for negotiation in a couple of years. And Secretary of the Navy wants real money for it now. It's not just a being a kind person anymore. It's, uh, so you have mutual interests and the environmental California Clean Air Act and all this kind of stuff and whether or not we can meet our tanks can meet your emission standards. No. So what's gonna be the offset? Things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So you're up there negotiating and trying to make them aware. And being a Californian, it also gave me a little bit, um, adopted Californian anyway, it gave me a little bit different access because I was one of them sort of. And so when I talked to a senator or to the member of the of the governor's cabinet, it came out, uh, we had positive discussions. So they knew me in Sacramento. And they knew I had a green side. And they knew that we were doing all of our green development on our bases. We were doing a lot. It was funded by the Secretary of the Navy, Secretary [Ray] Mabus and President Obama. And so, we were being really green. And so I was speaking the language of the Commander In Chief and Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 41 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 the Secretary of the Navy, being really green, and as my war experience as well made me have pretty much total buy-in. And my wife's Prius <laughs>. And the fact that she put in, I gave her $30,000 and put in solar at our house. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So, you know, all of those things, you know. And so I got a call from the, from the governor's office and the Secretary of Natural Resources, if I would please consider being the director of California State Parks. I said, "Oh, man, that sounds so good. I could do my job in my RV." And my wife, who's just a natural member of, at that time of the Sierra Club and the California Native Plant Society and all that. This, that's actually a job I'll consider. So I told her about it, and she said, "Well, if that's what you want to do." Which is her logical, her normal answer too. And so I took that up, I mean, to get the millions of dollars back in the right place. They had a morale problem. But they're kind of like military people in as much as, uh, a bunch of really dedicated people that don't get paid much for their dedication. They work for the state, the state doesn't realize, matter of fact, I'd say in some of the assignments that the park rangers have, they live more austere than a military family would definitely live. And the state doesn't recognize that, but they're-- If you're a ranger and you've got a series of parks in Carmel, Monterey, and those beach parks and stuff like that, and the state can't pay you enough for housing and stuff, things like that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And some of the more remote places, it's amazing! Old ranch houses that they'll rehabilitate, you know, and they learn to love what they're doing. You know, they, they, they do it because they love the great outdoors. They love people, they love the animals and all of that stuff. And they hear they, "Hey, I want to give you a pay raise, bring you to Sacramento and put you at my right hand." "Oh, no sir. <Visintainer laughs> I want to be, I want to be right down here where I am. I don't want to be in Sacramento." Uh, and they, they, they, there's a very different, uh, they're, they're much like Marines, but they don't have an up or out sort of ethic or, or, or, or value system. Theirs is, "I'm here. Like, this is my park, these are my parks, and this is where I want to raise my family, even if it's a twenty-five mile bus ride for my kids to go to kindergarten." This is, this is in the, I loved them for that. Great people. And, and I think they were, I don't want to talk too badly of my predecessor, but they needed the kind of leadership that's taught and admired in the Marine Corps. So getting in my, I literally got my RV, we have a state park on-Border Fields State Park right there at the fence. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Separating Tijuana from us. And we have one all the way on the Oregon border. Arizona border. Nevada border. And so I just, my wife and I, and I call the office in, um, and I tell my secretary, Lynn Black, I say, Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 42 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 "Lynn, tomorrow I'm gonna be at Humboldt State Park. You can tell him now." Okay. But I didn't want her to tell him, you know, a week in adva-- I didn't want him scrambling. Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Jackson: You know, I know how it is in the military when you know the general's gonna show up. It might be two weeks of scrubbing brass, you know, you know, if they got two weeks notice, they have two weeks of panic. <Visintainer coughs>. If they, if they have twenty-four hours of notice, they only got twenty-four hours of panic. And you can't fix much that's broken in 24 hours <laughs>. So that was great. I, I did enjoy that. I did not want a new career though. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: You know, I told the governor I've got two or three years, and not only that, I had grown spoiled, as a general officer to make critical decisions, life decisions. And you cannot do that. I mean, you're a political appointee of the governor, right? Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And you gotta be approved by, you know, two-thirds of the state senate. So you had to go through those hearings and all that, so you could not be totally, you could be what the governor wanted. But maybe not the governor's staff. The initiative was a little bit frightening. My initiative I think was a little bit frightening in Sacramento, and I can't stand micromanagers. Visintainer: Yeah. How was it frightening? Jackson: Uh, say your question again? Visintainer: How was it frightening? Jackson: Um, who, my initiative? Because I might do something that, uh, that might be really good for parks, really good for parks' people, but maybe it doesn't suit the governor's budget agenda. It might be too, you know, and so you did not want, and you didn't want to be that guy that-- but you wanted to do the right things, and you had to have people that would kind of support you in, in, in, in, uh, that you were Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 43 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 trying to do the right thing. Now, they could argue, and you might not be able to do it, but I did not feel that-- the military's incredible in terms of the responsibilities that I was given. And it was based on the special trust and confidence that I had built up over, you know, thirty years of service. And that, I mean that is, you're making really important decisions affecting people and maybe tens of thousands of people. And so to come down from that, it was, was, was not ideal. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And you had to come down from that, uh, you know, uh, your ego. Something had to, had to, had to back off. That you no longer had that much special trust and confi-- You had some trust and confidence. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: But you didn't have that ultimate special trust <laughs>, you know, because, you know. And, uh, and so I, I, I, I decided that certainly I didn't wanna spend any more time in that environment than fixing what I could fix. So got the budget money straight, got it all back, started fixing restrooms, started-- I, you know, I took it like it was a military operation: to develop a campaign plan, publish it to everybody. To everybody. Put it on the, on the website so every employee could read it. Visintainer: And at some point-Jackson: I, you know, I set up a, it still goes, they dropped me off the mailing list. My wife is still on the mailing list, but it's an email newsletter goes out every Friday. It's the same thing the Marine Corps does. I still get 'em from the, from the... from the Chief of Naval Operations. And I get a daily report of what's important. And then from the Marine Corps, every Friday I get one. You know, so that when I'm communicating as a member of a community, I'm talking from some firsthand knowledge. Not all of it, I don't, I'm not nothing secret, all open source stuff that we can communicate when we're out in our communities. As a flag officer, you still have certain responsibilities. Visintainer: Sure. Jackson: That, uh, uh, so yeah. So the civilian world's a little bit different, you know, and it was kind of... I think you have to, you have to adapt to it though, it's not gonna adapt to you. And so I, you know, after about two years, I kind of said, okay, and things are relatively stable here, for you. And, I would, I'm gonna step down and I was like I'm, I was just ready not to, and my wife one day, she goes, I was, I was commuting back and forth. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 44 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: So I would like fly home on Friday night and maybe Thursday night sometimes, and then I'd fly out Sunday night back to Sacramento or early Monday morning. And, you know, and that-- one day she looks at me and she says, "This is just like you're deployed." <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You know <laughter>. So I knew it was about time to put in the hat. Those two things came together, that deployment remark. And I was like, challenged whether or not I did, I wanted to give up the idea of that special trust and confidence that I had grown so used to as a military officer. Visintainer: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Jackson: Mm-hmm. So. Visintainer: I had a couple questions about Camp Pendleton I wanted to ask you. Jackson: Sure. Visintainer: One was, I was, I was curious about the base's relationship with the surrounding North County community and how that changed, how you've seen that change over time, if it has, maybe it hasn't? Jackson: Actually. Um, you know when Oceanside [California] was like shootouts at the O.K .Corral, not shootouts, but get drunk, go to a strip club, that kind of thing. In the seventies, it was, it was pretty, pretty harsh. And 'cause the Marine Corps was, it was, it was-- those were tough times for the Marine Corps and the city and the development. You didn't have the growth boom that's occurred over the last forty to fifty years for sure. But, I think it's really good relationship with the, with the uh, with the community. With the colleges, community colleges. I think this is a great relationship that Cal State San Marcos has with the military community in San Diego, writ large. And I think that Camp Pendleton... I think, I think the region knows that like 65% of the Marine Corps' combat power is here <waves hand in circular motion> and you can add on the Yuma Air Station with it, is here, this is the main war-fighting engine, and you got similar but smaller in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina and forward deployed in Okinawa, Japan. But they're smaller and they have different wartime commitments. This is the heavy Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 45 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 punch. And these bases, both the airspace, the sea space and the ground space for training are unmatched in the world. So you have the finest <waves hand in circular motion>, this geographic area, just, just what God put here makes it that way, you know, and you can have every just about climatic condition within MCI West, with the exception of a tropical jungle, you know. From the Sierras and our cold weather arctic training to the desert, to mountains and all this kind of stuff, the beaches. And, I mean, it's incredible training. And that's why Camp Pendleton, you know, was initially, what do they call it when the city comes in and takes your property? They took Camp Pendleton-Visintainer: Eminent domain? Jackson: Eminent domain. That's how it was. You know, here's $4 million, you're out of here. The O'Neill family, and they're the ones that developed San Clemente and all that region up north of San Clemente, you know, big developers, they're still here. The O'Neil family still, part of it's still here. But that eighteen miles of coastline, the number of military and military families associated with it. That, and the Navy, I think this is, we generate billions, like thirty-six billion dollars annually. And then in the state of California, it's over fifty-six billion dollars. So-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Just about one in every eleven or twelve defense dollars comes to California. Visintainer: Wow. <Jackson laughs>, that's significant <Jackson laughs>. Jackson: Yeah. I mean, you considered there's 50 states <laughs>. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And they pay taxes too <laughs>. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: So, um, I mean, Vista, the mayors, the, and the, and the San Clemente and, and Oceanside and San Marcos, they show up at events. They're invitees. They're on the invitation list to events. <laughs> The old mayor of Oceanside, he used to be quite a character, but he was kind of losing it a little bit, and he's Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 46 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 a really nice guy and he's had some strokes and stuff like that, but he'd still show up, you know? To things. And so I think that both from an economic development standpoint, and I think Camp Pendleton also felt that during my time there, that we were really helping San Diego, San Diego County, and the local communities with our investments that were given through the Economic Recovery Act. We were employing the citizens out there. It's a, you know, it's a kind of a domino effect on money spent from the military community here. So I think there's a really good relationship between the military. And I, and I, and, and I appreciate it because I don't think every community in California, although I'm on the governor's military council, and so I get to visit-- matter of fact, we have a meeting in another week or two. I better look at my calendar up at Vandenberg Air Force Base. But we meet all over the state where there's military communities, and we try to tie the, one of the things we try to do is tie the communities with the military base around them, and a lot of, and the communities have embraced that to the benefit of both. Because if you have a, um, a water problem or a waste management problem on your base, well, that's part of the community's problem too, because you're probably locked into the system. If you're trying to do renewable energies on the base, that's probably the community's issue too. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: If the schools aren't properly funded in the communities around the base, then you're, it's probably the base people are gonna be concerned. The military families are gonna be concerned, and they're not gonna want to go there if the schools aren't good schools. And so, I mean, we did a, around both Camp Pendleton, the Fallbrook Union School, elementary school district, and around Edwards Air Force Base, north of Los Angeles, they were both schools that are impacted by the military but weren't, were slipping in terms of, oh, quality of education, quality of facilities, and getting instructors. And some of these places are hardcore. And so the military worked with them to get matching funding in both of those school districts to, to rebuild schools, to hire teachers and things like that, that affects quality of life for military families as well as, you know, the community writ large. So it behooves the communities to, uh, to be kind of tied in with the bases, and it behooves the bases to be tied in. And so the commanders normally really recognize that and are accepted in the community. I have had one negative experience. It was actually, I was at [employed at] state parks and I was asked to be the commencement speaker at my high school in Oakland. It's kind of nice. I'm a retired general coming, and then I got a phone call from them, saying the principal wanted to make sure that I would not wear my uniform to the [ceremony]. Now I've been retired for, probably couldn't fit in my uniform and he should have thought of that. "Don't wear your uniform," basically. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And I'm going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, wait a minute." The high school principal's asking a guy who spent thirty-six and a half years in this uniform, that he doesn't want him to wear it. Now, first of all, I wouldn't have thought of wearing my uniform to, uh, you know, if it's a military event... No, I still wouldn't have worn a uniform <laughs>. Get a new tuxedo. I mean, you're in ship, tip-shop shape when you're in there. You know, you're <makes gesture indicating slim>, you know. I think I've grown a little bit rotund since those days, right. <laughs> Gently so <laughter>. But, uh, and so that uniform is fitted to Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 47 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 you, you know? And so I wouldn't have dreamed of it. But he, it was such an insult. I said, unless they withdraw that I'm not gonna speak. And so I didn't speak at my high school. And that was after retirement, and it was a totally unnecessary thing. But that's the difference. I mean, you'll run into that at the, at northern, you know. You know, I remember days going to watch the students riot at Berkeley and all that, but that. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: That was an attitude out of a principal in Oakland and my old alma mater. So, uh, and that's the only negative that, but I thought that was uh, and I just told him, I said, "Well, I can't come." I said, because it, it's like you're dishonoring-Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: You want me to deny I am a general. Visintainer: That's a huge part of your, your existence-Jackson: When you, you know, as I remember Commandant General James Conway going, no matter what, gentlemen-- all the generals in the Marine Corps get together once a year, and those who aren't forward deployed anyway, and he says, "I don't want you all worrying about whether you're a one-star, two-star, three-star, whatever. You're all just going to be generals and when they put it on your tombstone, that's what everybody will remember." They don't remember if you're, whatever, general, general, Lieutenant General. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: And so I thought that was good advice for, you know, and, uh, yeah. But yeah, it's kind of an interesting, well, let me show you one thing here. <laughs> I brought this because my wife told me to bring it, but she's my smartest counselor. <Visintainer laughs>. She does these really cool, she doesn't do like family albums, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 48 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 She tells the family story in this, in these, so you can-Visintainer: Can I [inaudible]? <Visintainer moves camera to show album sitting in Jackson's lap>. Jackson: She does these drawings. Yeah. Yeah. So all the drawings you see in this, she does, there's an old oak tree down by the Santa Margarita River and it's been chopped and it's been burned, and the top's been blown off in high winds, but it's just resilient, you know? So she says, that's kind of the story of your family-Visintainer: Uh-huh. Jackson: Resilience, <laughs> you know, and so, uh... So you'll see these different drawings, and then she'll go through and then she's found, it's kind of hard; we know that on my mother's side, this is my dad's, I mean, you can see how thin [the family tree is], when you're descendants of slaves, you don't necessarily get all the way back on the African descendants' side. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Very far. And this is my dad's little genealogical tree. And then this is my mother's. And what's interesting is from my mother's side, and this is where my dad lied on his draft card and said his parents were deceased <laughs>. And, so that's my dad as a like 16 year-old. I said, he looks like older than that, and this is him at the Korean War, and this is kind of his story. And then when I said he is a boxer, now this is my dad, when I was a senior in high school. Do you think I'd ever mess with my dad <laughter>? Visintainer: No you can definitely he was a, he was a prize fighter. Jackson: But he never lifted weights. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And this is a newspaper article when he was-- about why he chose to stay [inaudible]. He was a rated heavyweight fighter, but he chose to stick with the Army. And in this article there, they asked him why. And he just said it was more secure. But I only saw him in person fight one time. And he knocked the guy out with a, and this is his father and his mother. And yeah, that's my oldest sister and grandmother and Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 49 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 my dad's sister. But there's, now it goes over to my mother's side, and this is my mother as a girl. And this is all seven, there's very few pictures of all seven of my brothers and sisters. And this is like third grade Tony right there with his finger in his mouth. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And this is <laughs>. And this is us in Oakland. This is in Texas. And this is all seven of the kids. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: Uh, my dad's funeral, I think that's what <laughs> got us back together. But my family goes back to the original pioneers on my mother's side of, founding, they were with Brigham Young's party. And, um, and this tells the story, and one of the three people were with Brigham Young that were slaves. And my great-great-great grandfather [Green Flake] was a slave to, that was with that original Mormon party. And so he becomes a founder. That's my great-grandmother. There's a couple of pictures in here that are kind of neat. But Green Flake, that's him, was a slave. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: That came with the original. This tells the story of the original Mormon party that he was with. And he was, he was a scout. And um, and he-- and um, a road builder. And he drove Brigham Young's wagon. So when Brigham Young ends up in Salt Lake, the guy who he says, "This is the place," is my great-greatgreat grandfather, Green Flake. Now this is kind of a, this is my, this is Green Flake's daughter, my greatgreat-grandmother. This is my great-grandmother. This is that same great-grandmother with my grandmother, with my mother, with my older sister. Now, the curious thing is: so far the oldest of each generation is a woman, right? Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: And then now down here, this is a picture with my grandmother, <points> her; my mother, her; my sister, her right there; her daughter Lonnie, the first of that generation, and her daughter. Visintainer: Wow. <laughter>. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 50 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 So for seven consecutive generations, it's all girls. Visintainer: That's amazing. Jackson: And then finally she broke the mold. She now has a son, which is the first of that generation. And this is another curious thing. This is my great-great grandfather, one of them. And he's Mexican. And he changed his name to George Stevens. Visintainer: Okay. Jackson: <laughs> It doesn't show up much in my DNA, less than 1%. So my family has always had this knowledge. And then my wife got really into it. And then, and Green Flake-- This is a statue of Brigham Young, which is in downtown Salt Lake City, if you've ever been there. Visintainer: I've never been. Jackson: And in it, they list all of the original pioneers. And then down in a corner it has the three slaves, and which includes my great-great-great grandfather, Green Flake, you know. And, um, so he becomes the oldest living member of the original Mormon pioneers. Of the original ones. And so he's at the Jubilee, the 50th anniversary, he gets invited back from his farm in Idaho to be an honored guest as the oldest living. Visintainer: Wow. Jackson: And so, and here this lady stands up, this is from the Salt Lake Union Tribune of 1903 or something like that when he's there. And [the lady] asked him what it's like to be a slave. And so we actually have in quotes from the Tribune what it was like. 'Cause he was born in 1828. So, so that was kind of curious. And so where they did make a marker at a park, Pioneer Park. This marker was there, and somebody tore it down years ago. And I took my sons to see it with my mother, and this is his tombstone, which is kind of cool. Visintainer: Mm-hmm. Jackson: Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 51 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 And, uh, so somebody tore this down, and then, so this-- It was amazing, this summer, last summer past, they finally-- that's my family reunion, right? This picture right here, that's my sister and aunt. They finally built this thing. Look how small they look. Over a 10-foot statue of Green Flake now is in the, the historic park, um, Heritage Park of Salt Lake City, Utah. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: He's got this oversized statue of Green is finally made the, besides the footnote. But anyway, that was just in July I think they commemorated that statue. So that's part of what gives Jackson strength. Visintainer: Yes. Jackson: You know, is knowing that you have a, you know, a big history with this. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Are we over time? Visintainer: Uh, we-- we we're actually almost out of [camera] battery strength. <Jackson laughs> We've talked for a while, so I think it's as good a place of any is to end the interview. I actually have so many more questions for you, but-Jackson: That's all right. Visintainer: We'll run out of, we're run out of battery so-Jackson: That's okay. It was fun to talk. Visintainer: It is a real pleasure to have you-Jackson: Be hoarse the rest of the day. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 52 2023-06-08 �ANTHONY L. JACKSON TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2023-03-7 Visintainer: Yeah. <Jackson laughs> It's a pleasure to have you visit us and-Jackson: Yeah, well thanks for inviting me to recall some good things and, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: There were no real flashbacks, you know? Visintainer: Yep. Jackson: It can happen though. Every now and then, you know. Visintainer: Yeah. Jackson: Oh man. Visintainer: Well, thank you again. Jackson: Okay. Hopefully that was-Visintainer: I'm gonna go ahead and end the interview. Transcribed by Sean Visintainer 53 2023-06-08 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jackson, Anthony. Interview transcript. March 7, 2023. Description An account of the resource Major General Anthony L. Jackson retired from the United States Marine Corps on January 1st, 2012, after more than thirty-six years of service. After retiring form the Marine Corps, he served as the Director, California State Parks and Recreation from November 2012 through June, 2014. Major General Jackson has also served as the Chairman of the California State University, San Marcos, Foundation Board of Directors. In his interview, Jackson discusses his upbringing in a military family, including participating in a sit-in in a local drug store, and offers a comparison between his military service and that of his father, who served in the United States army. Jackson discusses life on military bases and support systems for deployed soldiers. Jackson recounts the courtship of his future wife, Sue, their early relationship, and the experience of being in an interracial relationship in the 1970s. Jackson discusses his later career with the Marines, including serving as Deputy Commanding General for MARCENT, where he helped make the case for the military to purchase Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs) during the second Iraq war, and working as Director of Military Operations and Logistics, AFRICOM. Jackson also discusses finishing his military career by returning to Camp Pendleton and other western U.S. bases as Commanding General for Marine Corps Installation West (MCI West). Jackson finishes his interview discussing his time working for California State Parks, his relationship with Cal State San Marcos, and his family lineage, which includes the enslaved wagon driver Green Flash, who drove Brigham Young's wagon on the Mormon exodus to Salt Lake City. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anthony Jackson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sean Visintainer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-03-07 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos Camp Pendleton (Calif.) Civil rights demonstrations Iraq War, 2003-2011 Military families Mormon Church Piracy -- Indian Ocean Racism United States. Africa Command. United States. Marine Corps Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Houston (Tex.) Indian Ocean Iraq Oakland (Calif.) San Marcos (Calif.) Stuttgart (Germany) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Anthony Jackson License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. 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