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California State University San Marcos University Library
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Oral History
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Madison Teater
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Theresa Rios
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=RiosTheresa_MadisonTeater-2022-04-06.xml
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Las Embajadores de Escondido
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5.4 2022-04-07 Oral history of Theresa Rios, April 7, 2022 SC027-17 00:34:29 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Escondido (Calif.) Hispanic Americans Libraries -- Literacy Public libraries Las Embajadores de Escondido Theresa Rios Madison Teater m4a RiosTheresa_MadisonTeater-2022-04-06.m4a 1:|24(4)|43(1)|52(14)|59(1)|66(7)|72(14)|86(14)|107(4)|122(11)|141(8)|159(6)|174(7)|193(3)|205(3)|219(12)|235(1)|249(11)|256(6)|271(5)|289(13)|315(15)|326(1)|337(12)|345(15)|352(7)|367(2)|383(1)|406(3)|433(13)|440(10)|456(13)|472(3)|491(7)|510(11) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/1889cecb528454849ec8fbed1d12c9ea.mp3 Other audio English 68 The Introduction of Theresa Rios / Becoming a librarian Teater: < ; laughs> ; All right. Just to get started, can you introduce yourself, like, say your name and when you were, or maybe not when you were born, but where you were born? Rios: Mm-hmm. My name is Theresa Rios. I was born in Clifton, Arizona. Teater: I'm going to ask you a few questions about your childhood and maybe your upbringing. So, how long have you lived in San Diego if you were born in Arizona? Rios: I came to Escondido in 1970. I brought my four children and myself and we moved here and my ex-husband and I have been here for fifty years. I lived in La Jolla for five years. I love Escondido. I came back to Escondido in I believe, [19]78. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And I have been here ever since. Teater: Wow. I love that. That's so cool. So at what point did you become a librarian? Or what was your journey to become a librarian? Rios: My journey was-- I have this write up from this Hispanic newspaper and it tells me here when I started the library was in... back in, oh my goodness. I’m little nervous, but not really. Anyway, I came, I started working, I came back to Escondido. I started going to Palomar College and from there I met my husband, Dan Rios. After that, I left Palomar College and I went to the employment office and they sent me to the [Escondido Public] library and I got this job at the library and I thought, my goodness, I love this job. And so I started by being a library assistant. And from there, they started giving me some privileges about -- being Hispanic, there was no Hispanic library books for either the children and even the adults. So I started-- Oh my goodness. I started, well translating for the library, whatever they needed. Anytime they needed a Hispanic to translate something, they would call me. I started teaching some of the librarians, what to, how to discuss things in Spanish or to answer in Spanish when someone came to the library and had no Spanish experience or could not. But there was no one that would write anything. I transferred papers, whatever they needed. Then I started seeing that the children, I started saying stories to the children and I noticed where a lot of the Hispanic children did not understand what we were saying [in English], what I was saying to them. And, so then I told my supervisor, I think we should start a Hispanic program – a storytelling time. And so he said, yes, whatever, it would be wonderful. Go ahead. Whatever you think. And at that time, I had a lot of the mothers that came with their children sometimes, and they also didn't know English. And so I decided to start Las Embajadores de Escondido. And they, they just thought again, Liz Painter was one of them. She helped, she helped a lot, because she was very friendly with all the people and she also wanted us to try something different. So again, I said, yes, let's do this. Let's tell the stories to the children in Spanish. And so there's a nice picture. The newspaper came over -- The [Escondido] Times Advocate -- and I have this, I'm sorry. Teater: It's okay. Do you want me to pause the recording? Rios: Yes. One moment. Okay. There's a very nice picture of me with this book that I would tell this story, Las Zapatitos Colorados, “The Red Shoes” and with this story, I would tell all the children to be very careful about who they went with, how not to go with just anyone and just sort of try to... tell them to be cautious, but at the same time, there was a lot to learn. We had a lot to learn. But you you'd have to see this, this article. And do you read Spanish? Teater: I know enough to muddle through it, you know < ; laugh> ; Rios: Oh good, good. Because this whole page is in Spanish. It's from the Hispanico, Hispanic Times. And it was way back in 2000. June 22nd, 2000. And it says Theresa Rios, nueva de delegate al club del parlementaria. Parliamentary. Teater: Oh cool. Rios: And before that well I was at Palomar College. I was with Concerned Citizens of Escondido at A Day With Your Neighbor Luncheon on May 7th, 1982: Theresa Rios, Pichacon Lupita, and George Lopez. And there's my boss over here. He's not mentioned, Jon Ericson. Anyway, there's a whole page of me with a picture of the, telling the story to the children. And I would like for you to see that, cause it just explains a lot. I had no idea I had done so much. < ; laughter> ; , it's bringing back all these memories and I loved it. I mean the, the library to me was like home. I mean wonderful. Teater: That's fantastic. Rios: Anyway, again, like I say, anything you asked me to do, whether it was a police department or it was the library or my bosses, the children were very important to get them started learning. I still have many friends here in Escondido that when I see, we talk about all the things that we did. And the library I've been going there and Roberta, she was my dear friend there. Just a lot of the gals that were, that are still there. Some of them the other day I went to the library and there was Francine, this one, she said “Theresa! How are you? I haven't seen you in,” you know, things like that. And I just love the library. I love going back. I'm just gonna kinda stay in touch, you know? Teater: Yeah. That's, that's great. That's so great. Rios: Back to, I mean, back to the -- what other question, I mean, I think I mentioned... Theresa Rios talks about moving from Arizona to California and how she came to be a librarian in the city of Escondido. Clifton, Arizona ; Escondido ; La Jolla ; librarian ; Palomar College ; Spanish ; Translator Becoming a librarian ; Spanish programs ; Theresa Rios in the Hispanico newspaper ; Translating for the public library 601 The Embajadores Program Teater: That was a good starting point. So, can you tell me more about the Embajadores program? Rios: Yes, the Embajadores we, like I said, the children's mothers, some of them, some were elderly ladies that came to the library that were my friends that I would tell them, come join us. I mean, come join the Embajadores. We want every child in Escondido to have a library card. Teater: Oh. Rios: I want every child to know, to learn how to read at a very young age. And so they came, they came from all over and we would have -- one time we had this salsa contest, not a contest, but everybody brought different kinds of salsa and my salsa won a blue ribbon. < ; laughs> ; Teater: Ooh. Rios: It was technically a blue ribbon. It was just a wonderful time. And the people came, we would have different places that would sponsor us. One of them was El Tapatilla in Escondido would send food. Again, a lot of stuff that's in this article brings back a lot of memories. But the Embajadores came and they gave tours. I taught them to give tours through the library. I taught 'em to sit and talk with people that need just answers in Spanish or just to get together with other ladies that, that spoke Spanish only. And then bring them in as far as, trying to -- if they wanted an education, if they wanted to join literacy [program], things like that. I mean, literacy was just starting ; the literacy program. And, and we had, you know, different people teaching other people Spanish or English or... Teater: And about when were these programs happening? Rios: That was back in that era, which is, you know... [unclear] There's a lot of paperwork that have here that I I've been going through, but you know, it's been so long. It's been-- Teater: Yeah. Yeah. Well that's okay. We can keep going. So, can you explain how, like early reading programs are impactful for a child's life? Like why that was so important to you? Rios: Because when I went to-- the reason that I believe this is so important is because I also, when I went to started kindergarten, I did not know a word of English. Very little, very, very little. My parents did not, we did not speak English at home. My father knew a little more than my mother, my mother didn't. I mean, because of her hardships, her mother died when she was, I believe, in third grade, I'm not sure, but the schools were what, you know, and she lived in a ranch and she was left with four or five or six little ones that she helped grow up. And a baby that my, her, my grandmother, her mother died. So my mother always thought education was very important. You need it. She would get very upset. Um, so I knew that... And then I have -- Me marrying so young and having four children. I decided, nuh-uh, if I would've had this education before, I would have, you know, not being so afraid of trying of being around people that could teach me that could read, could that would teach me. I mean, there was no nothing in Clifton Arizona where I was born. There was, there was some things, but not enough to inspire me at a young age. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And so I believe that if the children could get it right into them and tell me their stories, and then I would try to direct them when I would ask questions. Well, what do you do? How do you read at home? Do you do this? No... Do you like coming to the library? Oh yes. We like it. Do you like to hear stories? Oh, yes. And then I would ask some of the children little questions. I don't know if I should say this, but What do you do? Oh, we drink tequila. Teater: < ; laugh> ; oh, no, Rios: We would laugh over that That. I said, “Oh, no, we gotta get this--” < ; laugh> ; . I mean, I don't mean to it it's part of growing up it's in their environment, their family so again, I, I would see parents and I would say, well, you know, good, this is not so good. But, oh my God. And it just, I mean, you'd have to talk to my supervisor, which was Joanne, oh, my away. Well, and Laura Mitchell was also one of my bosses. And like I said, city manager at the time, I can't, it's gone right now, but I'll have to get those names if you need 'em. But they would, give me card blank for whatever I wanted to do. I was so fortunate and so lucky and, a lot of like Graham Humphrey, he was the head of the library at the time. And he knew my husband very well. Dan Teater: Mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; , Rios: And again, all I had to do was, well, Mr. Humphrey told me I want more Hispanic children here. I want, I don't-- at the time, I don't know whether he meant to say anything like this, but he said, I don't wanna see all this white Anglo-Saxons < ; affirmative> ; and I thought, oh my God. I mean because I believe that they're the white or the black or the Hispanic. We, they all need to learn everybody. < ; affirmative> ; Everybody needs to get some sense when they're young of what's going on and reading stories. I had no prejudice whatsoever, but I also understood the situation: who had the opportunities at home who didn't. And the ones that didn't of course would take priority of my attention, because I would have to explain myself more to them or listen to them a little more, so that they give me ideas of what, how I could help and how everybody in the library could help. Not just me. I didn't want, whenever somebody treated any of 'em with disrespect, I would just jump up and say, no, it's not the way we treat people. I mean, I had to fight everybody, not fight, but kind of. Teater: But yeah, I know what you mean. Rios: And I'm still doing it. I still do it. Even in my church at resurrection and everybody is welcome. Everybody is a child of Jesus. Everybody deserves a right to be heard. Of course, sometimes people are not in the mood to be heard or this and that. But with me, they'll come and tell me anything. and I feel how can I say I, a lot of humility that they can do that with me. But I feel if they're wrong, I'll tell them if they're hurting, I'll listen. And if they just wanna talk, that's good too. So we get along and that's how I get along at the library, and all my life. Theresa Rios talks about starting the Emajadores program, which gave Spanish speakers accessible resources in the library such as tours of the grounds, children's story times, and other elements for women, children, and the elderly. early reading programs ; El Tapatilla ; Embajadores program ; library ; literacy program dual-language learning ; Embajadores Program ; Library learning programs ; Spanish speaker ; Starting reading literacy programs at the library 1196 How to get Involved Teater: < ; laugh> ; all right. Let me, let me look through my questions because you're, you're answering so many of them. So what can library librarians who only speak English do to support the Spanish speakers of, you know, Escondido and San Diego? Rios: What could they do? Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: Is that the question? Teater: Yes. Rios: They could take classes in Spanish mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; They could have someone there to help interpret. They just like, you know, now a lot of people are coming like from other countries and we have to continue to learn. < ; affirmative> ; Although I'm fluent Spanish and English, I love French, but you know, I'm not that good at it. And I I'm very close to my Filipino friends. I have a daughter-in-law that's married to my son and a wonderful family. And here in Escondido, I very belong to my church at resurrection eighties and the man, all we are very good friends on the counter. I am a greeter at my church on Sundays. < ; affirmative> ; I, we all work together. So Like I say, whoever walks into that door always gets a good morning from me when I am greeting. And a lot of them too. And I say, we need to be very kind, but at the same time we need to. But anybody just run out, you know, they're having a problem. One, we have to kinda-- Teater: What other, are there any other initiatives that you worked on while you were in the library? It sounds like you had a lot of support from your supervisors. Rios: Well I was on the desk. I started on the desk. Like I said, greeting people and what do they need? Or they would tell me what I need to find out this, I need to go to this desk or I need to go here. I need to, I need to know about that. So I would direct them to wherever. That was part of our job, to direct people, to wherever they needed to go and help them. If they couldn't find something, if they had the librarian on the desk was busy we could try and just keep them moving. But at the same time, I had meetings with several people. I mean they have this special room. Can't think of it right now. I mean, it's just upstairs, but I would do whatever it took to for the children to have special things going on. I mean, yeah, I have to go back. But if you see this picture of me taken when I would read stories, oh, and I got, I got this job at the library, like I said, way back then, but my husband and I were planning a trip to Mexico City, Mexico, a three week trip through me to Mexico. And I told my boss, I told Joanne Greenberg. I said, I think this was in August that I got hired around that time. And in December, we were planning to go to Mexico for three weeks, four weeks. And I said, I would have to work here, but I have to ask, my husband and I are going to go to Mexico, and I want to go very badly. I've never been to Mexico City. And, if you will, let me go. And, and let me come back to this job. I promise to work as hard as I can. And, you know, they let me do this after just being hired a couple of months. And I was all very grateful for that. We had a lovely time in Mexico. We had children running after our van and I mean things I saw and and my husband being a photographer, took pictures of the kids and the dresses, the colors. It was amazing. So I came back to the library and < ; affirmative> ; , I had all those stories in me from, for the children and for, you know, even adults. Teater: Mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; sounds like, that sounds awesome. Rios: Seeing the no education, you know, a lot of we were out in the mountains where there were, and I said, and here they get a chance to come to America. And here we have all these mentees for them. So again, Mr. Humphrey had told me just whatever you need to do. And Joanne Greenberg the same. And then Laura Mitchell, she's whatever I wanted to do till my husband got sick. And then I said, I can't anymore, I have to-- < ; affirmative> ; He had Gotten this infection that he hardly couldn't walk for about a year. Teater: Oh no. Rios: But I took care of him. And, and he, we did wonderful, I mean, far as, and he came out of it and now he's on dialysis. He has been for five years. And again, it's a challenge just every day is a something new, but, but I live a quiet life. And if I can be, I tell people at my church, I will be here, but if I can't-- < ; affirmative> ; And, and that's the way I said, if you want me that way fine. If not, well, I have to something else, because as far as my church and my masses, I can always see them at home. I can, you know, do other things, especially now that everything is on TV. So, yeah. But at the same time, I'm very close to my priests that we built this new church here in Escondido, Resurrection, and I have had a lot of opportunities to help there. And again, I meet a lot of my people from the library and invite 'em there and come and see and bring your children. And again, I'm still involved. Theresa rios discusses how Escondido Public Library and other libaries can support non-English speakers and become more accessible and inclusive of people of different backgrounds and speak different languages. classes ; library ; Mexico City ; Spanish speakers ; support Accessibility in Libraries ; Escondido Public Library ; How libraries can be more inclusive to non-English speakers 1659 Connection with children as a librarian Teater: So you're still involved with children's programs then? Rios: Not as much as I would like to be, because, like I said, I can't commit myself too much because of my husband. Teater: Yeah. Rios: I have things that I need to do, but any chance I have, and they're having something really special, I try to attend. Teater: That's Nice. Rios: Or I just, I have a kind connection with the children at the church. And, and I just love it ; just even when they just say good morning, back to me, or hello or goodbye. And excited and on their way. And I'm on my way too. Teater: Sounds awesome. What has your-- what has connecting to children, or what has connecting to children meant to you? Like over the years as a librarian? Rios: What has connected mean to children? Teater: No. What has your connection with children meant to you as a librarian over the years? Rios: The in, oh, I just love to hear a child read. I love to just see their little faces when they hear a story. I'm just know, like I said, I have four of my own and, and a lot of nieces, I come from a family of ten, five brothers and five sisters. So I have nieces and nephews. And, anytime I'm Aunt Terry or Aunt T, or < ; laugh> ; , you know, we have a connection with, and in the library, of course they all know that, that I worked there. Anybody could come and, and visit their friends, cousins, nieces, nephews. And one time I had my grandson at the library. I baby him in the summer. Because my daughter and her husband had business to take care of up in Woodland, California. I mean Auburn. < ; affirmative> ; And Mr. Humphrey says, oh, my, my grandson was, I think he was seven or, or so seven years anyway, I had him in, enrolled him into the Boys and Girls Club. And so I had my friend Darlene from the library take him and they came back, both of them crying. < ; laugh> ; Teater: Oh, no. Rios: My grandson wouldn't stay. He would, he wouldn't stay. And I was working at the library. I couldn't, you know, I've taken care of customers. And so they came back crying, and then I said, okay, you come to the back. And I set him down there and I said, don't you move, you stay right there and eat your lunch or whatever. And anyway Mr. Humphrey was very kind, he never said a word to me about, yeah. Was that of order or anything. I mean, he let me do whatever was necessary for me to continue working there. Teater: I love that. That's so sweet. Rios: My grandson. I mean he loved being there at the library with me. < ; laugh> ; can I say, I mean, family always came first with me and I tell all my, the people that I know when they can't attend a meeting, that I, or something that I'm involved with, I say, and they say, my family, my doc, or doctors do whatever families first you take care of that, do not worry about anything else. And I'm saying it's family first when they need whatever they need. But at the same time I live my own life. It's a different life because my husband and I have been married forty-one years. Cause he's my third husband. So I have to do what is necessary to have a good life. And at the same time, do what what's good for other people, especially children and others. But when I can't do it, I can't do it. Like I said, in my home comes first right now with my ill husband has been ill for over 20 years. Teater: Oh no. Rios: And he retired. So, but he manages, he's a wonderful person. I mean, I could not ask for a better mate. Teater: Well, that's good to hear. I think those are all of my questions. Is there anything else that you want to add to your experience as a librarian or anything about that? Rios: Well, I just want you to make sure that, is there any way I can mail this literature to you, this newspaper articles and some of the things that I've did or I'll tell you, do you ever get to the pioneer room? Teater: I do not. So for here, I'm gonna pause the recording. --All right. Well, thank you so much for your time, Theresa. It was really great talking to you and learning all about your experience as a librarian and your impact on literacy in Escondido. It sounds so fulfilling. Thank you for your time today. Rios: You're so welcome. And Jay, what, what was your name, Jay? Teater: What? My name is MJ. Rios: MJ. I knew I had one right. Okay. MJ, thank you for calling me and giving me the opportunity to say all these things that I hope will help other people. Theresa Rios talks about how being a children's librarian has effected her and how accomodating her supervisor was for her responsibilites that interfered with work. family ; husband ; librarian ; Mr. Humphrey ; nephew Appreciation as a librarian ; Appreciative employee ; family bonds ; legacy as a librarian Oral History Theresa Rios is a retired Escondido librarian, where she created Las Embajadores Biblioteca. In this interview, Theresa discusses teaching children to read, empowering children to learn, and how her childhood impacted her passion for teaching children to read and love learning. MJ Teater: All right. It is recording now. All right. So today is Thursday, April 6th, 2022 at 1:07 PM. I am MJ Teater, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today I' ; m interviewing narrator Theresa Rios for the University Library Special Collections Oral History Project. Theresa, thank you for being here with me today. Theresa Rios: You' ; re very welcome. Teater: < ; laughs> ; All right. Just to get started, can you introduce yourself, like, say your name and when you were, or maybe not when you were born, but where you were born? Rios: Mm-hmm. My name is Theresa Rios. I was born in Clifton, Arizona. Teater: I' ; m going to ask you a few questions about your childhood and maybe your upbringing. So, how long have you lived in San Diego if you were born in Arizona? Rios: I came to Escondido in 1970. I brought my four children and myself and we moved here and my ex-husband and I have been here for fifty years. I lived in La Jolla for five years. I love Escondido. I came back to Escondido in I believe, [19]78. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And I have been here ever since. Teater: Wow. I love that. That' ; s so cool. So at what point did you become a librarian? Or what was your journey to become a librarian? Rios: My journey was-- I have this write up from this Hispanic newspaper and it tells me here when I started the library was in... back in, oh my goodness. I' ; m little nervous, but not really. Anyway, I came, I started working, I came back to Escondido. I started going to Palomar College and from there I met my husband, Dan Rios. After that, I left Palomar College and I went to the employment office and they sent me to the [Escondido Public] library and I got this job at the library and I thought, my goodness, I love this job. And so I started by being a library assistant. And from there, they started giving me some privileges about -- being Hispanic, there was no Hispanic library books for either the children and even the adults. So I started-- Oh my goodness. I started, well translating for the library, whatever they needed. Anytime they needed a Hispanic to translate something, they would call me. I started teaching some of the librarians, what to, how to discuss things in Spanish or to answer in Spanish when someone came to the library and had no Spanish experience or could not. But there was no one that would write anything. I transferred papers, whatever they needed. Then I started seeing that the children, I started saying stories to the children and I noticed where a lot of the Hispanic children did not understand what we were saying [in English], what I was saying to them. And, so then I told my supervisor, I think we should start a Hispanic program -- a storytelling time. And so he said, yes, whatever, it would be wonderful. Go ahead. Whatever you think. And at that time, I had a lot of the mothers that came with their children sometimes, and they also didn' ; t know English. And so I decided to start Las Embajadores de Escondido. And they, they just thought again, Liz Painter was one of them. She helped, she helped a lot, because she was very friendly with all the people and she also wanted us to try something different. So again, I said, yes, let' ; s do this. Let' ; s tell the stories to the children in Spanish. And so there' ; s a nice picture. The newspaper came over -- The [Escondido] Times Advocate -- and I have this, I' ; m sorry. Teater: It' ; s okay. Do you want me to pause the recording? Rios: Yes. One moment. Okay. There' ; s a very nice picture of me with this book that I would tell this story, Las Zapatitos Colorados, " ; The Red Shoes" ; and with this story, I would tell all the children to be very careful about who they went with, how not to go with just anyone and just sort of try to... tell them to be cautious, but at the same time, there was a lot to learn. We had a lot to learn. But you you' ; d have to see this, this article. And do you read Spanish? Teater: I know enough to muddle through it, you know < ; laugh> ; Rios: Oh good, good. Because this whole page is in Spanish. It' ; s from the Hispanico, Hispanic Times. And it was way back in 2000. June 22nd, 2000. And it says Theresa Rios, nueva de delegate al club del parlementaria. Parliamentary. Teater: Oh cool. Rios: And before that well I was at Palomar College. I was with Concerned Citizens of Escondido at A Day With Your Neighbor Luncheon on May 7th, 1982: Theresa Rios, Pichacon Lupita, and George Lopez. And there' ; s my boss over here. He' ; s not mentioned, Jon Ericson. Anyway, there' ; s a whole page of me with a picture of the, telling the story to the children. And I would like for you to see that, cause it just explains a lot. I had no idea I had done so much. < ; laughter> ; , it' ; s bringing back all these memories and I loved it. I mean the, the library to me was like home. I mean wonderful. Teater: That' ; s fantastic. Rios: Anyway, again, like I say, anything you asked me to do, whether it was a police department or it was the library or my bosses, the children were very important to get them started learning. I still have many friends here in Escondido that when I see, we talk about all the things that we did. And the library I' ; ve been going there and Roberta, she was my dear friend there. Just a lot of the gals that were, that are still there. Some of them the other day I went to the library and there was Francine, this one, she said " ; Theresa! How are you? I haven' ; t seen you in," ; you know, things like that. And I just love the library. I love going back. I' ; m just gonna kinda stay in touch, you know? Teater: Yeah. That' ; s, that' ; s great. That' ; s so great. Rios: Back to, I mean, back to the -- what other question, I mean, I think I mentioned... Teater: That was a good starting point. So, can you tell me more about the Embajadores program? Rios: Yes, the Embajadores we, like I said, the children' ; s mothers, some of them, some were elderly ladies that came to the library that were my friends that I would tell them, come join us. I mean, come join the Embajadores. We want every child in Escondido to have a library card. Teater: Oh. Rios: I want every child to know, to learn how to read at a very young age. And so they came, they came from all over and we would have -- one time we had this salsa contest, not a contest, but everybody brought different kinds of salsa and my salsa won a blue ribbon. < ; laughs> ; Teater: Ooh. Rios: It was technically a blue ribbon. It was just a wonderful time. And the people came, we would have different places that would sponsor us. One of them was El Tapatilla in Escondido would send food. Again, a lot of stuff that' ; s in this article brings back a lot of memories. But the Embajadores came and they gave tours. I taught them to give tours through the library. I taught ' ; em to sit and talk with people that need just answers in Spanish or just to get together with other ladies that, that spoke Spanish only. And then bring them in as far as, trying to -- if they wanted an education, if they wanted to join literacy [program], things like that. I mean, literacy was just starting ; the literacy program. And, and we had, you know, different people teaching other people Spanish or English or... Teater: And about when were these programs happening? Rios: That was back in that era, which is, you know... [unclear] There' ; s a lot of paperwork that have here that I I' ; ve been going through, but you know, it' ; s been so long. It' ; s been-- Teater: Yeah. Yeah. Well that' ; s okay. We can keep going. So, can you explain how, like early reading programs are impactful for a child' ; s life? Like why that was so important to you? Rios: Because when I went to-- the reason that I believe this is so important is because I also, when I went to started kindergarten, I did not know a word of English. Very little, very, very little. My parents did not, we did not speak English at home. My father knew a little more than my mother, my mother didn' ; t. I mean, because of her hardships, her mother died when she was, I believe, in third grade, I' ; m not sure, but the schools were what, you know, and she lived in a ranch and she was left with four or five or six little ones that she helped grow up. And a baby that my, her, my grandmother, her mother died. So my mother always thought education was very important. You need it. She would get very upset. Um, so I knew that... And then I have -- Me marrying so young and having four children. I decided, nuh-uh, if I would' ; ve had this education before, I would have, you know, not being so afraid of trying of being around people that could teach me that could read, could that would teach me. I mean, there was no nothing in Clifton Arizona where I was born. There was, there was some things, but not enough to inspire me at a young age. Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: And so I believe that if the children could get it right into them and tell me their stories, and then I would try to direct them when I would ask questions. Well, what do you do? How do you read at home? Do you do this? No... Do you like coming to the library? Oh yes. We like it. Do you like to hear stories? Oh, yes. And then I would ask some of the children little questions. I don' ; t know if I should say this, but What do you do? Oh, we drink tequila. Teater: < ; laugh> ; oh, no, Rios: We would laugh over that That. I said, " ; Oh, no, we gotta get this--" ; < ; laugh> ; . I mean, I don' ; t mean to it it' ; s part of growing up it' ; s in their environment, their family so again, I, I would see parents and I would say, well, you know, good, this is not so good. But, oh my God. And it just, I mean, you' ; d have to talk to my supervisor, which was Joanne, oh, my away. Well, and Laura Mitchell was also one of my bosses. And like I said, city manager at the time, I can' ; t, it' ; s gone right now, but I' ; ll have to get those names if you need ' ; em. But they would, give me card blank for whatever I wanted to do. I was so fortunate and so lucky and, a lot of like Graham Humphrey, he was the head of the library at the time. And he knew my husband very well. Dan Teater: Mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; , Rios: And again, all I had to do was, well, Mr. Humphrey told me I want more Hispanic children here. I want, I don' ; t-- at the time, I don' ; t know whether he meant to say anything like this, but he said, I don' ; t wanna see all this white Anglo-Saxons < ; affirmative> ; and I thought, oh my God. I mean because I believe that they' ; re the white or the black or the Hispanic. We, they all need to learn everybody. < ; affirmative> ; Everybody needs to get some sense when they' ; re young of what' ; s going on and reading stories. I had no prejudice whatsoever, but I also understood the situation: who had the opportunities at home who didn' ; t. And the ones that didn' ; t of course would take priority of my attention, because I would have to explain myself more to them or listen to them a little more, so that they give me ideas of what, how I could help and how everybody in the library could help. Not just me. I didn' ; t want, whenever somebody treated any of ' ; em with disrespect, I would just jump up and say, no, it' ; s not the way we treat people. I mean, I had to fight everybody, not fight, but kind of. Teater: But yeah, I know what you mean. Rios: And I' ; m still doing it. I still do it. Even in my church at resurrection and everybody is welcome. Everybody is a child of Jesus. Everybody deserves a right to be heard. Of course, sometimes people are not in the mood to be heard or this and that. But with me, they' ; ll come and tell me anything. and I feel how can I say I, a lot of humility that they can do that with me. But I feel if they' ; re wrong, I' ; ll tell them if they' ; re hurting, I' ; ll listen. And if they just wanna talk, that' ; s good too. So we get along and that' ; s how I get along at the library, and all my life. Teater: That' ; s Fantastic Rios: I guess this is how I tried to be. And what else can I tell you? Teater: < ; laugh> ; all right. Let me, let me look through my questions because you' ; re, you' ; re answering so many of them. So what can library librarians who only speak English do to support the Spanish speakers of, you know, Escondido and San Diego? Rios: What could they do? Teater: Mm-hmm. Rios: Is that the question? Teater: Yes. Rios: They could take classes in Spanish mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; They could have someone there to help interpret. They just like, you know, now a lot of people are coming like from other countries and we have to continue to learn. < ; affirmative> ; Although I' ; m fluent Spanish and English, I love French, but you know, I' ; m not that good at it. And I I' ; m very close to my Filipino friends. I have a daughter-in-law that' ; s married to my son and a wonderful family. And here in Escondido, I very belong to my church at resurrection eighties and the man, all we are very good friends on the counter. I am a greeter at my church on Sundays. < ; affirmative> ; I, we all work together. So Like I say, whoever walks into that door always gets a good morning from me when I am greeting. And a lot of them too. And I say, we need to be very kind, but at the same time we need to. But anybody just run out, you know, they' ; re having a problem. One, we have to kinda-- Teater: What other, are there any other initiatives that you worked on while you were in the library? It sounds like you had a lot of support from your supervisors. Rios: Well I was on the desk. I started on the desk. Like I said, greeting people and what do they need? Or they would tell me what I need to find out this, I need to go to this desk or I need to go here. I need to, I need to know about that. So I would direct them to wherever. That was part of our job, to direct people, to wherever they needed to go and help them. If they couldn' ; t find something, if they had the librarian on the desk was busy we could try and just keep them moving. But at the same time, I had meetings with several people. I mean they have this special room. Can' ; t think of it right now. I mean, it' ; s just upstairs, but I would do whatever it took to for the children to have special things going on. I mean, yeah, I have to go back. But if you see this picture of me taken when I would read stories, oh, and I got, I got this job at the library, like I said, way back then, but my husband and I were planning a trip to Mexico City, Mexico, a three week trip through me to Mexico. And I told my boss, I told Joanne Greenberg. I said, I think this was in August that I got hired around that time. And in December, we were planning to go to Mexico for three weeks, four weeks. And I said, I would have to work here, but I have to ask, my husband and I are going to go to Mexico, and I want to go very badly. I' ; ve never been to Mexico City. And, if you will, let me go. And, and let me come back to this job. I promise to work as hard as I can. And, you know, they let me do this after just being hired a couple of months. And I was all very grateful for that. We had a lovely time in Mexico. We had children running after our van and I mean things I saw and and my husband being a photographer, took pictures of the kids and the dresses, the colors. It was amazing. So I came back to the library and < ; affirmative> ; , I had all those stories in me from, for the children and for, you know, even adults. Teater: Mm-hmm < ; affirmative> ; sounds like, that sounds awesome. Rios: Seeing the no education, you know, a lot of we were out in the mountains where there were, and I said, and here they get a chance to come to America. And here we have all these mentees for them. So again, Mr. Humphrey had told me just whatever you need to do. And Joanne Greenberg the same. And then Laura Mitchell, she' ; s whatever I wanted to do till my husband got sick. And then I said, I can' ; t anymore, I have to-- < ; affirmative> ; He had Gotten this infection that he hardly couldn' ; t walk for about a year. Teater: Oh no. Rios: But I took care of him. And, and he, we did wonderful, I mean, far as, and he came out of it and now he' ; s on dialysis. He has been for five years. And again, it' ; s a challenge just every day is a something new, but, but I live a quiet life. And if I can be, I tell people at my church, I will be here, but if I can' ; t-- < ; affirmative> ; And, and that' ; s the way I said, if you want me that way fine. If not, well, I have to something else, because as far as my church and my masses, I can always see them at home. I can, you know, do other things, especially now that everything is on TV. So, yeah. But at the same time, I' ; m very close to my priests that we built this new church here in Escondido, Resurrection, and I have had a lot of opportunities to help there. And again, I meet a lot of my people from the library and invite ' ; em there and come and see and bring your children. And again, I' ; m still involved. Teater: So you' ; re still involved with children' ; s programs then? Rios: Not as much as I would like to be, because, like I said, I can' ; t commit myself too much because of my husband. Teater: Yeah. Rios: I have things that I need to do, but any chance I have, and they' ; re having something really special, I try to attend. Teater: That' ; s Nice. Rios: Or I just, I have a kind connection with the children at the church. And, and I just love it ; just even when they just say good morning, back to me, or hello or goodbye. And excited and on their way. And I' ; m on my way too. Teater: Sounds awesome. What has your-- what has connecting to children, or what has connecting to children meant to you? Like over the years as a librarian? Rios: What has connected mean to children? Teater: No. What has your connection with children meant to you as a librarian over the years? Rios: The in, oh, I just love to hear a child read. I love to just see their little faces when they hear a story. I' ; m just know, like I said, I have four of my own and, and a lot of nieces, I come from a family of ten, five brothers and five sisters. So I have nieces and nephews. And, anytime I' ; m Aunt Terry or Aunt T, or < ; laugh> ; , you know, we have a connection with, and in the library, of course they all know that, that I worked there. Anybody could come and, and visit their friends, cousins, nieces, nephews. And one time I had my grandson at the library. I baby him in the summer. Because my daughter and her husband had business to take care of up in Woodland, California. I mean Auburn. < ; affirmative> ; And Mr. Humphrey says, oh, my, my grandson was, I think he was seven or, or so seven years anyway, I had him in, enrolled him into the Boys and Girls Club. And so I had my friend Darlene from the library take him and they came back, both of them crying. < ; laugh> ; Teater: Oh, no. Rios: My grandson wouldn' ; t stay. He would, he wouldn' ; t stay. And I was working at the library. I couldn' ; t, you know, I' ; ve taken care of customers. And so they came back crying, and then I said, okay, you come to the back. And I set him down there and I said, don' ; t you move, you stay right there and eat your lunch or whatever. And anyway Mr. Humphrey was very kind, he never said a word to me about, yeah. Was that of order or anything. I mean, he let me do whatever was necessary for me to continue working there. Teater: I love that. That' ; s so sweet. Rios: My grandson. I mean he loved being there at the library with me. < ; laugh> ; can I say, I mean, family always came first with me and I tell all my, the people that I know when they can' ; t attend a meeting, that I, or something that I' ; m involved with, I say, and they say, my family, my doc, or doctors do whatever families first you take care of that, do not worry about anything else. And I' ; m saying it' ; s family first when they need whatever they need. But at the same time I live my own life. It' ; s a different life because my husband and I have been married forty-one years. Cause he' ; s my third husband. So I have to do what is necessary to have a good life. And at the same time, do what what' ; s good for other people, especially children and others. But when I can' ; t do it, I can' ; t do it. Like I said, in my home comes first right now with my ill husband has been ill for over 20 years. Teater: Oh no. Rios: And he retired. So, but he manages, he' ; s a wonderful person. I mean, I could not ask for a better mate. Teater: Well, that' ; s good to hear. I think those are all of my questions. Is there anything else that you want to add to your experience as a librarian or anything about that? Rios: Well, I just want you to make sure that, is there any way I can mail this literature to you, this newspaper articles and some of the things that I' ; ve did or I' ; ll tell you, do you ever get to the pioneer room? Teater: I do not. So for here, I' ; m gonna pause the recording. --All right. Well, thank you so much for your time, Theresa. It was really great talking to you and learning all about your experience as a librarian and your impact on literacy in Escondido. It sounds so fulfilling. Thank you for your time today. Rios: You' ; re so welcome. And Jay, what, what was your name, Jay? Teater: What? My name is MJ. Rios: MJ. I knew I had one right. Okay. MJ, thank you for calling me and giving me the opportunity to say all these things that I hope will help other people. Teater: Yeah, they will. Thank you so much for your time today. Rios: You' ; re so welcome. Teater: Okay. All right. Have a good rest of your day. Rios: You too goodly. Teater: All right. Bye. Bye. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Rios, Theresa. Interview April 7, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
Theresa Rios is a retired Escondido librarian, where she created Las Embajadores Biblioteca. In this interview, Theresa discusses teaching children to read, empowering children to learn, and how her childhood impacted her passion for teaching children to read and love learning.
Identifier
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SC027-17
Subject
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Latine Americans
Libraries -- Literacy
Public libraries
Date
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2022-04-07
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audio
Creator
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Theresa Rios
Contributor
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Madison Teater
Coverage
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Escondido (Calif.)
Arizona
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
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Theresa Rios
Community history
History Department internship
Latine experience
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/d3c147170d930bc7f12d9f580bba4753.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-07
THERESA RIOS
MJ Teater:
All right. It is recording now. All right. So today is Thursday, April 6th, 2022 at 1:07 PM. I am MJ Teater, a
graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today I'm interviewing narrator Theresa
Rios for the University Library Special Collections Oral History Project. Theresa, thank you for being here
with me today.
Theresa Rios:
You're very welcome.
Teater:
<laughs> All right. Just to get started, can you introduce yourself, like, say your name and when you
were, or maybe not when you were born, but where you were born?
Rios:
Mm-hmm. My name is Theresa Rios. I was born in Clifton, Arizona.
Teater:
I'm going to ask you a few questions about your childhood and maybe your upbringing. So, how long
have you lived in San Diego if you were born in Arizona?
Rios:
I came to Escondido in 1970. I brought my four children and myself and we moved here and my exhusband and I have been here for fifty years. I lived in La Jolla for five years. I love Escondido. I came
back to Escondido in I believe, [19]78.
Teater:
Mm-hmm.
Rios:
And I have been here ever since.
Teater:
Wow. I love that. That's so cool. So at what point did you become a librarian? Or what was your journey
to become a librarian?
Rios:
My journey was-- I have this write up from this Hispanic newspaper and it tells me here when I started
the library was in... back in, oh my goodness. I’m little nervous, but not really. Anyway, I came, I started
working, I came back to Escondido. I started going to Palomar College and from there I met my husband,
Dan Rios. After that, I left Palomar College and I went to the employment office and they sent me to the
[Escondido Public] library and I got this job at the library and I thought, my goodness, I love this job. And
so I started by being a library assistant. And from there, they started giving me some privileges about -being Hispanic, there was no Hispanic library books for either the children and even the adults. So I
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THERESA RIOS
started-- Oh my goodness. I started, well translating for the library, whatever they needed. Anytime they
needed a Hispanic to translate something, they would call me. I started teaching some of the librarians,
what to, how to discuss things in Spanish or to answer in Spanish when someone came to the library and
had no Spanish experience or could not. But there was no one that would write anything. I transferred
papers, whatever they needed. Then I started seeing that the children, I started saying stories to the
children and I noticed where a lot of the Hispanic children did not understand what we were saying [in
English], what I was saying to them. And, so then I told my supervisor, I think we should start a Hispanic
program – a storytelling time. And so he said, yes, whatever, it would be wonderful. Go ahead.
Whatever you think. And at that time, I had a lot of the mothers that came with their children
sometimes, and they also didn't know English. And so I decided to start Las Embajadores de Escondido.
And they, they just thought again, Liz Painter was one of them. She helped, she helped a lot, because
she was very friendly with all the people and she also wanted us to try something different. So again, I
said, yes, let's do this. Let's tell the stories to the children in Spanish. And so there's a nice picture. The
newspaper came over -- The [Escondido] Times Advocate -- and I have this, I'm sorry.
Teater:
It's okay. Do you want me to pause the recording?
Rios:
Yes. One moment. Okay. There's a very nice picture of me with this book that I would tell this story, Las
Zapatitos Colorados, “The Red Shoes” and with this story, I would tell all the children to be very careful
about who they went with, how not to go with just anyone and just sort of try to... tell them to be
cautious, but at the same time, there was a lot to learn. We had a lot to learn. But you you'd have to see
this, this article. And do you read Spanish?
Teater:
I know enough to muddle through it, you know <laugh>
Rios:
Oh good, good. Because this whole page is in Spanish. It's from the Hispanico, Hispanic Times. And it was
way back in 2000. June 22nd, 2000. And it says Theresa Rios, nueva de delegate al club del
parlementaria. Parliamentary.
Teater:
Oh cool.
Rios:
And before that well I was at Palomar College. I was with Concerned Citizens of Escondido at A Day With
Your Neighbor Luncheon on May 7th, 1982: Theresa Rios, Pichacon Lupita, and George Lopez. And
there's my boss over here. He's not mentioned, Jon Ericson. Anyway, there's a whole page of me with a
picture of the, telling the story to the children. And I would like for you to see that, cause it just explains
a lot. I had no idea I had done so much. <laughter>, it's bringing back all these memories and I loved it. I
mean the, the library to me was like home. I mean wonderful.
Teater:
That's fantastic.
Rios:
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Anyway, again, like I say, anything you asked me to do, whether it was a police department or it was the
library or my bosses, the children were very important to get them started learning. I still have many
friends here in Escondido that when I see, we talk about all the things that we did. And the library I've
been going there and Roberta, she was my dear friend there. Just a lot of the gals that were, that are still
there. Some of them the other day I went to the library and there was Francine, this one, she said
“Theresa! How are you? I haven't seen you in,” you know, things like that. And I just love the library. I
love going back. I'm just gonna kinda stay in touch, you know?
Teater:
Yeah. That's, that's great. That's so great.
Rios:
Back to, I mean, back to the -- what other question, I mean, I think I mentioned...
Teater:
That was a good starting point. So, can you tell me more about the Embajadores program?
Rios:
Yes, the Embajadores we, like I said, the children's mothers, some of them, some were elderly ladies
that came to the library that were my friends that I would tell them, come join us. I mean, come join the
Embajadores. We want every child in Escondido to have a library card.
Teater:
Oh.
Rios:
I want every child to know, to learn how to read at a very young age. And so they came, they came from
all over and we would have -- one time we had this salsa contest, not a contest, but everybody brought
different kinds of salsa and my salsa won a blue ribbon. <laughs>
Teater:
Ooh.
Rios:
It was technically a blue ribbon. It was just a wonderful time. And the people came, we would have
different places that would sponsor us. One of them was El Tapatilla in Escondido would send food.
Again, a lot of stuff that's in this article brings back a lot of memories. But the Embajadores came and
they gave tours. I taught them to give tours through the library. I taught 'em to sit and talk with people
that need just answers in Spanish or just to get together with other ladies that, that spoke Spanish only.
And then bring them in as far as, trying to -- if they wanted an education, if they wanted to join literacy
[program], things like that. I mean, literacy was just starting; the literacy program. And, and we had, you
know, different people teaching other people Spanish or English or...
Teater:
And about when were these programs happening?
Rios:
That was back in that era, which is, you know... [unclear] There's a lot of paperwork that have here that I
I've been going through, but you know, it's been so long. It's been-Teater:
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Yeah. Yeah. Well that's okay. We can keep going. So, can you explain how, like early reading programs
are impactful for a child's life? Like why that was so important to you?
Rios:
Because when I went to-- the reason that I believe this is so important is because I also, when I went to
started kindergarten, I did not know a word of English. Very little, very, very little. My parents did not,
we did not speak English at home. My father knew a little more than my mother, my mother didn't. I
mean, because of her hardships, her mother died when she was, I believe, in third grade, I'm not sure,
but the schools were what, you know, and she lived in a ranch and she was left with four or five or six
little ones that she helped grow up. And a baby that my, her, my grandmother, her mother died. So my
mother always thought education was very important. You need it. She would get very upset. Um, so I
knew that... And then I have -- Me marrying so young and having four children. I decided, nuh-uh, if I
would've had this education before, I would have, you know, not being so afraid of trying of being
around people that could teach me that could read, could that would teach me. I mean, there was no
nothing in Clifton Arizona where I was born. There was, there was some things, but not enough to
inspire me at a young age.
Teater:
Mm-hmm.
Rios:
And so I believe that if the children could get it right into them and tell me their stories, and then I
would try to direct them when I would ask questions. Well, what do you do? How do you read at home?
Do you do this? No... Do you like coming to the library? Oh yes. We like it. Do you like to hear stories?
Oh, yes. And then I would ask some of the children little questions. I don't know if I should say this, but
What do you do? Oh, we drink tequila.
Teater:
<laugh> oh, no,
Rios:
We would laugh over that That. I said, “Oh, no, we gotta get this--” <laugh>. I mean, I don't mean to it
it's part of growing up it's in their environment, their family so again, I, I would see parents and I would
say, well, you know, good, this is not so good. But, oh my God. And it just, I mean, you'd have to talk to
my supervisor, which was Joanne, oh, my away. Well, and Laura Mitchell was also one of my bosses. And
like I said, city manager at the time, I can't, it's gone right now, but I'll have to get those names if you
need 'em. But they would, give me card blank for whatever I wanted to do. I was so fortunate and so
lucky and, a lot of like Graham Humphrey, he was the head of the library at the time. And he knew my
husband very well. Dan
Teater:
Mm-hmm <affirmative>,
Rios:
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And again, all I had to do was, well, Mr. Humphrey told me I want more Hispanic children here. I want, I
don't-- at the time, I don't know whether he meant to say anything like this, but he said, I don't wanna
see all this white Anglo-Saxons <affirmative> and I thought, oh my God. I mean because I believe that
they're the white or the black or the Hispanic. We, they all need to learn everybody. <affirmative>
Everybody needs to get some sense when they're young of what's going on and reading stories. I had no
prejudice whatsoever, but I also understood the situation: who had the opportunities at home who
didn't. And the ones that didn't of course would take priority of my attention, because I would have to
explain myself more to them or listen to them a little more, so that they give me ideas of what, how I
could help and how everybody in the library could help. Not just me. I didn't want, whenever somebody
treated any of 'em with disrespect, I would just jump up and say, no, it's not the way we treat people. I
mean, I had to fight everybody, not fight, but kind of.
Teater:
But yeah, I know what you mean.
Rios:
And I'm still doing it. I still do it. Even in my church at resurrection and everybody is welcome. Everybody
is a child of Jesus. Everybody deserves a right to be heard. Of course, sometimes people are not in the
mood to be heard or this and that. But with me, they'll come and tell me anything. and I feel how can I
say I, a lot of humility that they can do that with me. But I feel if they're wrong, I'll tell them if they're
hurting, I'll listen. And if they just wanna talk, that's good too. So we get along and that's how I get along
at the library, and all my life.
Teater:
That’s Fantastic
Rios:
I guess this is how I tried to be. And what else can I tell you?
Teater:
<laugh> all right. Let me, let me look through my questions because you're, you're answering so many of
them. So what can library librarians who only speak English do to support the Spanish speakers of, you
know, Escondido and San Diego?
Rios:
What could they do?
Teater:
Mm-hmm.
Rios:
Is that the question?
Teater:
Transcribed by MJ Teater
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THERESA RIOS
Yes.
Rios:
They could take classes in Spanish mm-hmm <affirmative> They could have someone there to help
interpret. They just like, you know, now a lot of people are coming like from other countries and we
have to continue to learn. <affirmative> Although I'm fluent Spanish and English, I love French, but you
know, I'm not that good at it. And I I'm very close to my Filipino friends. I have a daughter-in-law that's
married to my son and a wonderful family. And here in Escondido, I very belong to my church at
resurrection eighties and the man, all we are very good friends on the counter. I am a greeter at my
church on Sundays. <affirmative> I, we all work together. So Like I say, whoever walks into that door
always gets a good morning from me when I am greeting. And a lot of them too. And I say, we need to
be very kind, but at the same time we need to. But anybody just run out, you know, they're having a
problem. One, we have to kinda-Teater:
What other, are there any other initiatives that you worked on while you were in the library? It sounds
like you had a lot of support from your supervisors.
Rios:
Well I was on the desk. I started on the desk. Like I said, greeting people and what do they need? Or
they would tell me what I need to find out this, I need to go to this desk or I need to go here. I need to, I
need to know about that. So I would direct them to wherever. That was part of our job, to direct people,
to wherever they needed to go and help them. If they couldn't find something, if they had the librarian
on the desk was busy we could try and just keep them moving. But at the same time, I had meetings
with several people. I mean they have this special room. Can't think of it right now. I mean, it's just
upstairs, but I would do whatever it took to for the children to have special things going on. I mean,
yeah, I have to go back. But if you see this picture of me taken when I would read stories, oh, and I got, I
got this job at the library, like I said, way back then, but my husband and I were planning a trip to Mexico
City, Mexico, a three week trip through me to Mexico. And I told my boss, I told Joanne Greenberg. I
said, I think this was in August that I got hired around that time. And in December, we were planning to
go to Mexico for three weeks, four weeks. And I said, I would have to work here, but I have to ask, my
husband and I are going to go to Mexico, and I want to go very badly. I've never been to Mexico City.
And, if you will, let me go. And, and let me come back to this job. I promise to work as hard as I can. And,
you know, they let me do this after just being hired a couple of months. And I was all very grateful for
that. We had a lovely time in Mexico. We had children running after our van and I mean things I saw and
and my husband being a photographer, took pictures of the kids and the dresses, the colors. It was
amazing. So I came back to the library and <affirmative>, I had all those stories in me from, for the
children and for, you know, even adults.
Teater:
Mm-hmm <affirmative> sounds like, that sounds awesome.
Rios:
Seeing the no education, you know, a lot of we were out in the mountains where there were, and I said,
and here they get a chance to come to America. And here we have all these mentees for them. So again,
Mr. Humphrey had told me just whatever you need to do. And Joanne Greenberg the same. And then
Transcribed by MJ Teater
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THERESA RIOS
Laura Mitchell, she's whatever I wanted to do till my husband got sick. And then I said, I can't anymore, I
have to-- <affirmative> He had Gotten this infection that he hardly couldn't walk for about a year.
Teater:
Oh no.
Rios:
But I took care of him. And, and he, we did wonderful, I mean, far as, and he came out of it and now he's
on dialysis. He has been for five years. And again, it's a challenge just every day is a something new, but,
but I live a quiet life. And if I can be, I tell people at my church, I will be here, but if I can't-- <affirmative>
And, and that's the way I said, if you want me that way fine. If not, well, I have to something else,
because as far as my church and my masses, I can always see them at home. I can, you know, do other
things, especially now that everything is on TV. So, yeah. But at the same time, I'm very close to my
priests that we built this new church here in Escondido, Resurrection, and I have had a lot of
opportunities to help there. And again, I meet a lot of my people from the library and invite 'em there
and come and see and bring your children. And again, I'm still involved.
Teater:
So you're still involved with children's programs then?
Rios:
Not as much as I would like to be, because, like I said, I can't commit myself too much because of my
husband.
Teater:
Yeah.
Rios:
I have things that I need to do, but any chance I have, and they're having something really special, I try
to attend.
Teater:
That's Nice.
Rios:
Or I just, I have a kind connection with the children at the church. And, and I just love it; just even when
they just say good morning, back to me, or hello or goodbye. And excited and on their way. And I'm on
my way too.
Teater:
Sounds awesome. What has your-- what has connecting to children, or what has connecting to children
meant to you? Like over the years as a librarian?
Rios:
Transcribed by MJ Teater
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THERESA RIOS
What has connected mean to children?
Teater:
No. What has your connection with children meant to you as a librarian over the years?
Rios:
The in, oh, I just love to hear a child read. I love to just see their little faces when they hear a story. I'm
just know, like I said, I have four of my own and, and a lot of nieces, I come from a family of ten, five
brothers and five sisters. So I have nieces and nephews. And, anytime I'm Aunt Terry or Aunt T, or
<laugh>, you know, we have a connection with, and in the library, of course they all know that, that I
worked there. Anybody could come and, and visit their friends, cousins, nieces, nephews. And one time I
had my grandson at the library. I baby him in the summer. Because my daughter and her husband had
business to take care of up in Woodland, California. I mean Auburn. <affirmative> And Mr. Humphrey
says, oh, my, my grandson was, I think he was seven or, or so seven years anyway, I had him in, enrolled
him into the Boys and Girls Club. And so I had my friend Darlene from the library take him and they
came back, both of them crying. <laugh>
Teater:
Oh, no.
Rios:
My grandson wouldn't stay. He would, he wouldn't stay. And I was working at the library. I couldn't, you
know, I've taken care of customers. And so they came back crying, and then I said, okay, you come to
the back. And I set him down there and I said, don't you move, you stay right there and eat your lunch or
whatever. And anyway Mr. Humphrey was very kind, he never said a word to me about, yeah. Was that
of order or anything. I mean, he let me do whatever was necessary for me to continue working there.
Teater:
I love that. That's so sweet.
Rios:
My grandson. I mean he loved being there at the library with me. <laugh> can I say, I mean, family
always came first with me and I tell all my, the people that I know when they can't attend a meeting,
that I, or something that I'm involved with, I say, and they say, my family, my doc, or doctors do
whatever families first you take care of that, do not worry about anything else. And I'm saying it's family
first when they need whatever they need. But at the same time I live my own life. It's a different life
because my husband and I have been married forty-one years. Cause he's my third husband. So I have to
do what is necessary to have a good life. And at the same time, do what what's good for other people,
especially children and others. But when I can't do it, I can't do it. Like I said, in my home comes first
right now with my ill husband has been ill for over 20 years.
Teater:
Oh no.
Rios:
Transcribed by MJ Teater
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THERESA RIOS
And he retired. So, but he manages, he's a wonderful person. I mean, I could not ask for a better mate.
Teater:
Well, that's good to hear. I think those are all of my questions. Is there anything else that you want to
add to your experience as a librarian or anything about that?
Rios:
Well, I just want you to make sure that, is there any way I can mail this literature to you, this newspaper
articles and some of the things that I've did or I'll tell you, do you ever get to the pioneer room?
Teater:
I do not. So for here, I'm gonna pause the recording. --All right. Well, thank you so much for your time,
Theresa. It was really great talking to you and learning all about your experience as a librarian and your
impact on literacy in Escondido. It sounds so fulfilling. Thank you for your time today.
Rios:
You're so welcome. And Jay, what, what was your name, Jay?
Teater:
What? My name is MJ.
Rios:
MJ. I knew I had one right. Okay. MJ, thank you for calling me and giving me the opportunity to say all
these things that I hope will help other people.
Teater:
Yeah, they will. Thank you so much for your time today.
Rios:
You're so welcome.
Teater:
Okay. All right. Have a good rest of your day.
Rios:
You too goodly.
Teater:
All right. Bye. Bye.
Transcribed by MJ Teater
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�
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Rios, Theresa. Interview transcript. April 7, 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
Theresa Rios is a retired Escondido librarian, where she created Las Embajadores Biblioteca. In this interview, Theresa discusses teaching children to read, empowering children to learn, and how her childhood impacted her passion for teaching children to read and love learning.
Creator
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Theresa Rios
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MJ Teater
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2022-04-07
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Latine Americans
Libraries -- Literacy
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Escondido (Calif.)
Arizona
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California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections
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Theresa Rios
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2022-05-13
Community history
History Department internship
Latine experience
Women's experience
-
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Robert Sheehan
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Thao Ha
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gang violence
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5.4 Oral history of Thao Ha, April 19, 2022 SC027-21 1:27:24 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Education Gangs -- Texas -- Houston Mira Costa College -- California -- Oceanside Refugees -- Vietnam Transitions (Program) Victims of violent crimes gang violence Thao Ha Robert Sheehan mp4 HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.mp4 1:|17(4)|30(1)|39(3)|50(1)|63(17)|75(3)|94(15)|109(3)|123(2)|136(1)|150(5)|157(9)|167(11)|180(4)|193(7)|203(4)|211(13)|221(4)|234(1)|246(1)|256(5)|269(2)|279(11)|291(3)|304(10)|314(8)|322(14)|335(2)|347(13)|360(13)|372(8)|381(10)|393(10)|406(5)|417(6)|427(2)|436(11)|445(16)|454(6)|463(2)|472(6)|484(14)|494(11)|507(3)|518(8)|529(10)|538(4)|544(14)|561(4)|571(16)|583(4)|601(7)|612(14)|625(18)|639(2)|650(7)|663(1)|674(13)|693(4)|705(8)|717(12)|727(14)|738(9)|750(6)|758(1)|769(2)|777(9)|789(5)|800(3)|810(5)|819(13)|831(3)|839(8)|849(4)|859(14)|870(13)|879(8)|888(14)|900(3)|910(2)|919(11)|928(16)|938(2)|951(13)|962(11)|972(15)|982(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e0bc9bd3a81619c640e7bc9fc529dc61.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction/ Childhood Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, “Oh my God, it must have been so scary.” (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, “Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives” by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Thao Ha discusses her early childhood. She was born in Vietnam and recounts the story of how she fled the country at the fall of Saigon as a toddler with her parents. She explains that they were processed into the United States as refugees and settled in San Antonio, Texas. HoChi Minh City ; refugees ; Saigon ; San Antonio (Tex.) ; Vietnam ; Vietnamese family 403 Family background/ Parents’ occupations Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or…? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, “How come you weren’t a pilot when you were already a pilot?” And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, “Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.” And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, “Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.” Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Thao Ha discusses her family’s background. She has two younger sisters and one younger brother. Their family also moved around often for their father’s work, and they have lived in San Antonio, TX, Knoxville, TN, Cedar Rapids, IA, and Houston, TX. Her family still resides in Houston. Thao also describes her parents’ occupations. Her father was a pilot in the South Vietnamese Air Force, but he had lost his log books when they fled to the U.S. In order to support his family, her father became a mechanic in the U.S. Thao explains that this is part of the refugee experience. She also explains that her mother was a seamstress who sewed t-shirts for babies in hospitals who was later contracted by an ophthalmologist to sew surgical eye patch garters. Her parents later collaborated with the ophthalmologist and worked together to create surgical eye patches that contained metal parts. Houston (Tex.) ; Mechanic ; pilot ; refugees ; Seamstresses ; Vietnamese family 845 Growing up in a Vietnamese community Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, “Go back to my own country,” you know, “Go back to your country.” And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I—I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, “Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,” and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Thao Ha discusses her experience growing up in a Vietnamese community in Houston, TX. She explains that Houston was an area in which secondary migration occurred for Vietnamese refugees due to job opportunities and affordable housing. Thao describes feeling connected to her community in Houston ; she had many Vietnamese friends in school, she spoke the language at home, and there were Vietnamese stores in town. As a refugee, however, Thao did also experience bullying and racism from other children in her community. It was also during this time that Thao began associating with other kids who had formed gangs. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; refugees ; Vietnamese community ; Vietnamese family ; Vietnamese-American gangs 1137 Relationship with sisters / Gang affiliations in Houston, TX Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, “Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,” right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was—you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you’re in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, “Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,” and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, “They looked like gangsters,” and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, “Oh my God! We know him,” but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Thao Ha discusses the responsibilities of being the eldest child in an immigrant household. She felt that there was a lot of pressure placed on her to set a good example for her younger siblings and to ensure their safety. Thao also explains the culture of gang affiliation for immigrant youth and teenagers. In Houston, Thao describes that gang affiliation was needed as a means for protection against non-Vietnamese teenagers. She further describes her teenage years living in Houston and her experience with friends and family in gangs. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; Refugees ; Vietnamese family ; Vietnamese-American gangs 1921 School years Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, “I did this like three years ago.” (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, “Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now.” So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, “Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.” And my parents were like, “Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?” And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, “Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.” And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don’t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, “Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I’ll just figure it out later and take the test.” Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it—or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking “Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.” And going more towards thinking “Well maybe I'll just get a job,” because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, “I don't know what I'm going to do.” And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, “That's it. I'll just go get a job.” And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, “Okay,” something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, “Okay, that's it, it's time to—" ; it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, “Okay if I go back to school,” which I definitely wanted to do, “I will study something that I want to.” And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, “Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!” And I thought, “Well, I will study law,” so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, “Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,” and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Thao Ha first discusses her middle school and high school years. She recounts excelling in many subjects, but that fighting with students and truancy caused other problems while in the school system. She graduated from high school Cum Laude but describes struggling to find her path in college. Many of her friends were still involved in gang activity, and she did not know where she belonged. She explains that she decided to leave college and find a job to support her family. She also explains that after being shot in a pool hall and seeing more friends enter the prison system, she decided to go back to college and studying sociology. Crime ; Education ; Refugee ; Sociology ; Vietnamese-American gangs 2475 Getting shot at a pool hall Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie’s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, “Okay, we got to get out of here,” right? “We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.” So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, “Okay, we got to get out of here!” And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, “There's a fight outside. We got to go!” So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, “Bang, bang, bang.” We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, “Why does my arm hurt so bad?” And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, “Fuck, I got shot!” right? And everybody's like, “What, what, what!?” And so, I'm like, “Drive to hospital!” Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking “What just happened?” And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe just what happened.” And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, “Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.” And I was just like, “Ow!” It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, “No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this.” Like, “If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here.” I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, “Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,” right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, “Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.” Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, “Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter.” I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, “Oh, you see that?” And so, he was pointing, and he said, “That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm.” And then he goes, “Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.” So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He’s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, “So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.” So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, “Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.” And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents “Two millimeters.” That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, “Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up.” Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, “Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!” You know you watch on TV and it's like, “Let me know if you're cold!” Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, “I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it’s just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again.” Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, “What are your goals?” I was like, “Well I want to play volleyball again.” And he was like, “I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work.” Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Thao Ha describes in further detail the night she was shot at an American pool hall called Slick Willie’s. She recalls many Vietnamese at the pool hall that night when a fight broke out. She explains that she was shot as she and her friends were escaping the pool hall. She also describes her experience in the hospital and speaking with police. Thao also describes how being shot affected her volleyball career. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; pool halls ; refugee ; Vietnamese-American gangs 3230 Studying sociology in university Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, “I will write with my right hand!” So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, “Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything,” right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, “People study Vietnamese people?” It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. “Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.” So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, “Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.” And I will never forget. She's like, “Oh, I know you.” she's like, “You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?” And I said, “No,” and she said, “Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!” And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, “Wow! I feel so special.” So, I said, “Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.” (laughs) And she was like, “You want to go to law school, huh?” So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, “Do you want to work eighty hours a week?” And I was like, “No.” And she said, “Well, you know that’s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.” She was like, “Have you ever thought about being a professor?” I said, “No.” She said, “Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,” right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, “Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.” And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, “How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.” And I'm like, “Oh, wow.” So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, “I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side.” So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, “Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!” And I'm like, “Oh my God.” (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, “Your daughter should be a professor.” And my parents like, “Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.” (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Thao Ha recounts her decision to study sociology in college. Thao describes how her sociology professor mentored her in undergrad, provided her with research opportunities, and influenced her to go into teaching. Education ; Immigration studies ; refugee ; Sociology ; Teaching 3538 Decision to go into teaching / Dichotomy of identities Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. “Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.” And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, “If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.” So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, “Oh man, that's really what I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,” and my parents were like, “Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.” (laughs) “You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?” That's my mom, right? Like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.” So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, “Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.” So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, “Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.” So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like “I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.” I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Thao Ha continues to discuss her decision to go into teaching. She also describes the dichotomy of her identity while in graduate school. She explains that she felt that she had to let go of her past while earning her PhD. Once Thao began working with individuals in the California prison system, however, she began to reconcile her past and present identities. Crime ; Education ; Identity ; Immigration studies ; refugee ; Refugee Studies ; Sociology ; Teaching ; Vietnamese-American gangs 3936 Future of the judicial system Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, “We should just do away with prisons,” prison abolition, like, “We don't need prisons in society.” And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, “Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society.” So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Thao Ha discusses the future of the judicial system. She explains her complicated opinions regarding the prison abolition movement and how she instead supports abolishing for-profit prisons and lifetime sentences for youth. Crime ; For-profit prisons ; Prison ; Prison abolition movements ; Refugee ; Wrongful convictions 4440 Family experiences with wrongful convictions/ Thoughts on reduced sentencing Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, “Oh, you did that and so you get out,” but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, “Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,” people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Thao Ha discusses her family experiences with wrongful convictions in the prison system. She explains how a wrongful conviction can turn into a life sentence and how some punishments do not fit the crime. Thao also explains how reduced prison sentencing can depend on each state’s law. She discusses the different reduced sentencing laws in California and Texas. California ; Crime ; Prison ; Reduced sentencing ; Refugee ; Texas ; Wrongful convictions 4814 The value of education/ Experience teaching at a community college Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don’t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, “Well, I learned that on TikTok.” Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, “Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!” I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, “Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?” And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, “I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.” And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, “I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.” So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Thao Ha reflects on the value of education. She understands that a university education is expensive for many students and wants to see education become more accessible. She also discusses her career as a professor in the community college system and explains her passion for connecting with her students in a close-knit learning environment. Community college ; Education ; Refugee ; Sociology ; Teaching Oral history Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at Mira Costa College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I' ; m here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that' ; s where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they' ; ve shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they' ; re in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn' ; t really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' ; lens, I' ; m like, " ; Oh my God, it must have been so scary." ; (laughs) And, she' ; s got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn' ; t crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that' ; s the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That' ; s incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn' ; t had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, " ; Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives" ; by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you' ; re running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father' ; s kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he' ; s just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that' ; s when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that' ; s where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family' ; s still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or--? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, " ; How come you weren' ; t a pilot when you were already a pilot?" ; And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn' ; t they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren' ; t, that' ; s something they didn' ; t take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, " ; Well, I can' ; t be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do." ; And they just, you know I think that' ; s part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' ; generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can' ; t be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you' ; re alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don' ; t think he has any--I' ; m not sure, that was a good question. I' ; ll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it' ; s one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren' ; t really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they' ; re newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here' ; s where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, " ; Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter." ; Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn' ; t want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That' ; s really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there' ; s a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it' ; s not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn' ; t have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, " ; Go back to my own country," ; you know, " ; Go back to your country." ; And just the things that you' ; ll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I--I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, " ; Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied," ; and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that' ; s when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that' ; s like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there' ; s a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there' ; s a dichotomy. There' ; s the Thao at home. And then there' ; s the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that' ; s a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they' ; ll tell you like, " ; Oh, it was okay for them to go out together," ; right? Like if there' ; s three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you' ; d have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn' ; t get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I' ; m going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it' ; s kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny' ; s not the right word, but it' ; s interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there' ; s an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don' ; t see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there' ; s another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you' ; re in the math club or if you' ; re in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there' ; s fun in that as well, but there' ; s also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you' ; re not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I' ; m sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don' ; t want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was--you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn' ; t necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you' ; re in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad' ; s youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he' ; s a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he' ; s in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who' ; s his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That' ; s the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you' ; re constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you' ; re in a social setting who you don' ; t want to mess with, and who you don' ; t want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don' ; t know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, " ; Oh, I fallen and I can' ; t get up," ; and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they' ; d hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they' ; d rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That' ; s how he described them, " ; They looked like gangsters," ; and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn' ; t do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America' ; s Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI' ; s most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America' ; s Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, " ; Oh my God! We know him," ; but we didn' ; t know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that' ; s kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I' ; d kind of like to circle back to your education. As you' ; re going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you' ; re doing well in school. But those two don' ; t seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I' ; m like, " ; I did this like three years ago." ; (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn' ; t learning. And I came home and I told my dad, " ; Hey, I don' ; t know, dad. Like, I don' ; t know what you want from us. I' ; m sorry that we messed up. And I' ; m sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I' ; m getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I' ; m in the eighth grade now." ; So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don' ; t have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, " ; Oh, I' ; d love to be like a journalist or an author." ; And my parents were like, " ; Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?" ; And I didn' ; t know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, " ; Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something." ; And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn' ; t let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don' ; t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, " ; Oh, they don' ; t take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don' ; t have to go to class. I' ; ll just figure it out later and take the test." ; Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn' ; t work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn' ; t enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it--or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking " ; Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me." ; And going more towards thinking " ; Well maybe I' ; ll just get a job," ; because I need to help my friends figure out what they' ; re doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, " ; I don' ; t know what I' ; m going to do." ; And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn' ; t do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, " ; That' ; s it. I' ; ll just go get a job." ; And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, " ; Okay," ; something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, " ; Okay, that' ; s it, it' ; s time to--" ; it' ; s a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that' ; s when I decided, " ; Okay if I go back to school," ; which I definitely wanted to do, " ; I will study something that I want to." ; And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, " ; Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We' ; re just happy you' ; re alive!" ; And I thought, " ; Well, I will study law," ; so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, " ; Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer," ; and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there' ; s a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie' ; s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there' ; s problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn' ; t, I didn' ; t really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, " ; Okay, we got to get out of here," ; right? " ; We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now." ; So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We' ; re like, " ; Okay, we got to get out of here!" ; And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I' ; m recounting this because it' ; s about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would' ; ve left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, " ; There' ; s a fight outside. We got to go!" ; So, we' ; re running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we' ; re running to the car, that' ; s when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we' ; d already heard, " ; Bang, bang, bang." ; We' ; d already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that' ; s when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don' ; t know if you' ; ve never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don' ; t know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn' ; t even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that' ; s kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, " ; Why does my arm hurt so bad?" ; And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I' ; m like, " ; Fuck, I got shot!" ; right? And everybody' ; s like, " ; What, what, what!?" ; And so, I' ; m like, " ; Drive to hospital!" ; Because we can' ; t call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I' ; m in the car backseat and my sister' ; s trying to tie a tourniquet and I' ; m sitting here thinking " ; What just happened?" ; And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It' ; s like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that' ; s when I was like, " ; Oh my God, I can' ; t believe just what happened." ; And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, " ; Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that." ; And I was just like, " ; Ow!" ; It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn' ; t as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that' ; s what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, " ; No, I don' ; t want to, I don' ; t want to continue this." ; Like, " ; If you go shoot up that guy, they' ; re going to come back, shoot us up. Let' ; s just end this here." ; I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn' ; t want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, " ; Let' ; s just end here. I' ; m going to trust the legal system. I' ; m going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen," ; right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That' ; s intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, " ; Oh, she' ; s super lucky. She' ; s super lucky." ; Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, " ; Look at her X-ray. There' ; s bullet matter, there' ; s bone matter, there' ; s tissue matter." ; I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, " ; Oh, you see that?" ; And so, he was pointing, and he said, " ; That' ; s her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would' ; ve had to amputate her arm." ; And then he goes, " ; Oh, you see that? That' ; s her nerve." ; So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He' ; s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He' ; s like, " ; So we' ; re going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don' ; t know how much mobility she' ; ll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she' ; ll have her arm. We won' ; t have to cut it off and she' ; ll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back." ; So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, " ; Oh, okay. So, I' ; m lucky to be alive. I' ; m lucky not to have amputation. I' ; m lucky to have, not paralysis." ; And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don' ; t know why, but I remember him telling my parents " ; Two millimeters." ; That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, " ; Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don' ; t screw it up." ; Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It' ; s like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You' ; re so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she' ; s freaking out. She' ; s like, " ; Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!" ; You know you watch on TV and it' ; s like, " ; Let me know if you' ; re cold!" ; Right? Like, because somebody' ; s dying. And I was like, " ; I don' ; t think I' ; m dying sis[ter], I think it' ; s just my arm. But I don' ; t know if I' ; m going to ever play volleyball again." ; Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, " ; What are your goals?" ; I was like, " ; Well I want to play volleyball again." ; And he was like, " ; I can' ; t promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It' ; s going to be how hard you work." ; Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I' ; m missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn' ; t have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That' ; s good to hear. So, you' ; ve got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there' ; s a lot of scar tissue in there. It' ; s not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it' ; s not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there' ; s just too much scar tissue. So, it can' ; t bend and it gets sore more easily. There' ; s been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it' ; s all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I' ; m assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, " ; I will write with my right hand!" ; So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there' ; s one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I' ; m being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, " ; Oh gosh, if I could just change one person' ; s life, it would mean everything," ; right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I' ; m like, " ; People study Vietnamese people?" ; It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. " ; Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay." ; So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that' ; s why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there' ; s something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, " ; Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you' ; re my sociology professor." ; And I will never forget. She' ; s like, " ; Oh, I know you." ; she' ; s like, " ; You' ; re a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?" ; And I said, " ; No," ; and she said, " ; Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!" ; And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, " ; Wow! I feel so special." ; So, I said, " ; Well, I came to ask you if there' ; s any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school." ; (laughs) And she was like, " ; You want to go to law school, huh?" ; So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, " ; Do you want to work eighty hours a week?" ; And I was like, " ; No." ; And she said, " ; Well, you know that' ; s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I' ; m just giving you a reality." ; She was like, " ; Have you ever thought about being a professor?" ; I said, " ; No." ; She said, " ; Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week," ; right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, " ; Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman." ; And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, " ; How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community." ; And I' ; m like, " ; Oh, wow." ; So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, " ; I want you to present your paper at a conference. It' ; s going to be at the college, and you' ; ll be in front of hundreds of people, but don' ; t worry, I' ; ll be there. I' ; ll be right there by your side." ; So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don' ; t know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, " ; Oh, we' ; re so proud of you. You did so well!" ; And I' ; m like, " ; Oh my God." ; (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I' ; m sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, " ; Your daughter should be a professor." ; And my parents like, " ; Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor." ; (laughs) Sheehan: It' ; s nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor' ; s Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. " ; Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor' ; s now you can get in and finish your Master' ; s in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you' ; ll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area." ; And so literally she laid out this option for me. She' ; s like, " ; If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then." ; So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, " ; Oh man, that' ; s really what I want to do. I don' ; t think I want to I go to law school anymore," ; and my parents were like, " ; Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don' ; t want to be a lawyer." ; (laughs) " ; You' ; re going to have to lie. You have to lie if you' ; re a lawyer, do you want to do that?" ; That' ; s my mom, right? Like, " ; Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom." ; So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that' ; s a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can' ; t hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I' ; m like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn' ; t what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he' ; s like, " ; Just forget about us. We' ; re not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on." ; So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn' ; t like, " ; Oh, you should totally make this your Master' ; s degree study." ; So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like " ; I' ; m not going to tell anybody that' ; s who I was. I don' ; t want them to judge me. I don' ; t want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him." ; I don' ; t tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn' ; t until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it' ; s very full circle. So that' ; s where I' ; m at now. And that' ; s kind of the work that I champion, and I' ; m not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn' ; t exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you' ; ve had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that' ; s a really good question, because there' ; s so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, " ; We should just do away with prisons," ; prison abolition, like, " ; We don' ; t need prisons in society." ; And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it' ; s very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who' ; ve done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It' ; s like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It' ; s a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there' ; s other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they' ; re out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don' ; t think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who' ; ve done long, long prison sentences. So, I' ; m not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they' ; ve done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don' ; t think that that works. There' ; s no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, " ; Well, you' ; re done. We just need to be done with you in society." ; So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that' ; s a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we' ; ve seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we' ; re dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that' ; s a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we' ; re allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it' ; s awful. I mean, let' ; s look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They' ; re not fully developed. We do stupid things when we' ; re young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would' ; ve gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would' ; ve went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there' ; s already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I' ; m in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it' ; s one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it' ; s not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let' ; s say there' ; s a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I' ; ve seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you' ; re eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you' ; re forty-eight years old. You' ; ve missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we' ; re incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there' ; s a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn' ; t really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I' ; m not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would' ; ve happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That' ; s a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn' ; t like an automatic, like, " ; Oh, you did that and so you get out," ; but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, " ; Okay, you' ; ve changed, and you' ; ve rehabilitated, and you' ; re no longer threat to society," ; people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn' ; t necessarily violent, let' ; s say you--I' ; m trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn' ; t inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you' ; re not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there' ; s been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you' ; re probably going do your full time. You' ; re not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I' ; m coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I' ; ll guess I' ; ll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you' ; d like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it' ; s 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It' ; s not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don' ; t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who' ; s twenty years old, and she' ; s like, " ; Well, I learned that on TikTok." ; Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they' ; re formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they' ; re like, " ; Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!" ; I don' ; t think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you' ; ll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That' ; s a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don' ; t mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don' ; t. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn' ; t applied to any universities yet, I didn' ; t qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, " ; Man, I' ; ve got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?" ; And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that' ; s different from university, but that' ; s also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let' ; s not discount it, given that we' ; re going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we' ; re not in person, right? But we' ; re human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can' ; t untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, " ; I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact." ; And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, " ; I' ; m going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way." ; So, there' ; s a financial benefit, there' ; s the social benefit, there' ; s the intimidation factor that is less because you' ; re not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, " ; Oh my God, it must have been so scary." ; (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, " ; Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives" ; by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or--? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, " ; How come you weren't a pilot when you were already a pilot?" ; And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, " ; Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do." ; And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, " ; Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter." ; Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, " ; Go back to my own country," ; you know, " ; Go back to your country." ; And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I--I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, " ; Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied," ; and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, " ; Oh, it was okay for them to go out together," ; right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was--you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you're in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, " ; Oh, I fallen and I can't get up," ; and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, " ; They looked like gangsters," ; and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, " ; Oh my God! We know him," ; but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, " ; I did this like three years ago." ; (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, " ; Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now." ; So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, " ; Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author." ; And my parents were like, " ; Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?" ; And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, " ; Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something." ; And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don't know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, " ; Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I'll just figure it out later and take the test." ; Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it--or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking " ; Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me." ; And going more towards thinking " ; Well maybe I'll just get a job," ; because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, " ; I don't know what I'm going to do." ; And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, " ; That's it. I'll just go get a job." ; And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, " ; Okay," ; something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, " ; Okay, that's it, it's time to--" ; it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, " ; Okay if I go back to school," ; which I definitely wanted to do, " ; I will study something that I want to." ; And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, " ; Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!" ; And I thought, " ; Well, I will study law," ; so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, " ; Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer," ; and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie's. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, " ; Okay, we got to get out of here," ; right? " ; We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now." ; So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, " ; Okay, we got to get out of here!" ; And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, " ; There's a fight outside. We got to go!" ; So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, " ; Bang, bang, bang." ; We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, " ; Why does my arm hurt so bad?" ; And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, " ; Fuck, I got shot!" ; right? And everybody's like, " ; What, what, what!?" ; And so, I'm like, " ; Drive to hospital!" ; Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking " ; What just happened?" ; And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, " ; Oh my God, I can't believe just what happened." ; And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, " ; Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that." ; And I was just like, " ; Ow!" ; It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, " ; No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this." ; Like, " ; If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here." ; I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, " ; Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen," ; right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, " ; Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky." ; Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, " ; Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter." ; I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, " ; Oh, you see that?" ; And so, he was pointing, and he said, " ; That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm." ; And then he goes, " ; Oh, you see that? That's her nerve." ; So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He's like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, " ; So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back." ; So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, " ; Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis." ; And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents " ; Two millimeters." ; That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, " ; Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up." ; Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, " ; Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!" ; You know you watch on TV and it's like, " ; Let me know if you're cold!" ; Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, " ; I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it's just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again." ; Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, " ; What are your goals?" ; I was like, " ; Well I want to play volleyball again." ; And he was like, " ; I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work." ; Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, " ; I will write with my right hand!" ; So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, " ; Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything," ; right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, " ; People study Vietnamese people?" ; It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. " ; Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay." ; So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, " ; Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor." ; And I will never forget. She's like, " ; Oh, I know you." ; she's like, " ; You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?" ; And I said, " ; No," ; and she said, " ; Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!" ; And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, " ; Wow! I feel so special." ; So, I said, " ; Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school." ; (laughs) And she was like, " ; You want to go to law school, huh?" ; So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, " ; Do you want to work eighty hours a week?" ; And I was like, " ; No." ; And she said, " ; Well, you know that's the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality." ; She was like, " ; Have you ever thought about being a professor?" ; I said, " ; No." ; She said, " ; Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week," ; right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, " ; Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman." ; And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, " ; How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community." ; And I'm like, " ; Oh, wow." ; So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, " ; I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side." ; So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, " ; Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!" ; And I'm like, " ; Oh my God." ; (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, " ; Your daughter should be a professor." ; And my parents like, " ; Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor." ; (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. " ; Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area." ; And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, " ; If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then." ; So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, " ; Oh man, that's really what I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore," ; and my parents were like, " ; Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer." ; (laughs) " ; You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?" ; That's my mom, right? Like, " ; Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom." ; So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, " ; Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on." ; So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, " ; Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study." ; So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like " ; I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him." ; I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, " ; We should just do away with prisons," ; prison abolition, like, " ; We don't need prisons in society." ; And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, " ; Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society." ; So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, " ; Oh, you did that and so you get out," ; but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, " ; Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society," ; people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don't know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, " ; Well, I learned that on TikTok." ; Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, " ; Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!" ; I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, " ; Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?" ; And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, " ; I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact." ; And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, " ; I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way." ; So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Ha, Thao. Interview April 19, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at MiraCosta College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway.
Identifier
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SC027-21
Subject
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Education
Gangs -- Texas -- Houston
MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program
Refugees -- Vietnam
Transitions (Program)
Victims of violent crimes
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-04-19
Format
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video
Creator
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Thao Ha
Contributor
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Robert Sheehan
Coverage
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Houston (Tex.)
Oceanside (Calif.)
Vietnam
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California State University San Marcos
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Thao Ha
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Community history
History Department internship
Immigrant experience
Women's experience
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/35e9e4684adf94123fb801dc0efe5b35.pdf
4f2797a71fce1b3f3f8626ce7b872d70
PDF Text
Text
THAO HA
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-04-19
Thao Ha: Okay.
Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr.
Ha thank you for having me here today.
Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited.
Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your
childhood. When and where were you born?
Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but
amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs).
Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well.
Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of
Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me
born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force
Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first
settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into
the little neighborhood that we lived in.
Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind
sharing a little bit about that?
Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my
parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth,
there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and
my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she
was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the
city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air
Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we
were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my
father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the
airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and
Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying
me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and
she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know
what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because
her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens,
I'm like, “Oh my God, it must have been so scary.” (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she
said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because
I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn
Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and
then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four
in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the
morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that
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�THAO HA
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
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island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there,
we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents.
Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in?
Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where
they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for
evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of,
that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running
with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already,
because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had
already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure
enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other
plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, “Oh, your dad kind of saved
our lives” by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of
things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us.
Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards
the area that was all of the bombing going on.
Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running
away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive.
Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure.
Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now
that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that.
Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do?
Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she
had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who
was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at
Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are
stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he
came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated.
Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters?
Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my
sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee.
And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived
there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And
then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a
lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so
that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there.
Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was
done flying or…?
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�THAO HA
TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-04-19
Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, “How come you weren’t a pilot when you were already a pilot?”
And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of
like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots
who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's
something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot
in the U.S.
Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition
for him?
Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like,
“Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.” And they just, you know I think that's
part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you
know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be
grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take.
And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I
do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of
things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was
something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime
friends from work.
Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom
also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States?
Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was
raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started
looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts
that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or
maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both
laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of
workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these
surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name
is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the
seamstress group at the hospital and said, “Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I
want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.” Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter.
And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that
woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom
sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these
surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him
because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And
then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company,
gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So,
his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do
that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because
he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were
manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S.
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TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
2022-04-19
Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches.
Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and,
we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around.
Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time?
Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot
of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had
occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs; two, it was warm (laughs); and three, it was
affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking
about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had
Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery
stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I
had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my
parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they
kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play
outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star
volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little
kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team.
So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that
were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, “Go back to my own
country,” you know, “Go back to your country.” And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees
experience and immigrants experience. But I—I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would
really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, “Well, just turn the
other cheek when you get bullied,” and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to
defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now,
that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get
caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other
elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a
lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial
tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And
this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of
kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements
were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like
skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting
leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that
can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really
well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members
and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that
that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like
the dual life that I was living.
Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not
at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home
while your parents worked?
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TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW
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Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot
of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was
definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their
behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were
not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them,
they'll tell you like, “Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,” right? Like if there's three of them, not
one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why
they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people.
So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I
would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And
so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then
we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or
whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then
come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle.
Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was
probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh)
Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that.
So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting
to see them kind of follow in your footsteps.
Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain,
and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a
lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth.
And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the
math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang
affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you
have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you,
you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were
hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our
friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way.
Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were
protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic
persuasions?
Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was—you know, middle school and high school it was
more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around
the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a
particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it
was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of
town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by
the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home
invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection
from other Vietnamese gangs.
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Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home
invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world?
Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school,
the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't
necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right?
We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were
somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my
dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents,
and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into
the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent,
also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in
that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were
somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against
us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had
mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated
with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one
neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there
were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who
you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you’re in a social setting who you don't want to
mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain
space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars,
burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was
a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for
your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like,
“Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,” and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the
same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped
or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their
front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush
in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a
couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know
so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of
people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community.
Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push
your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do?
Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several
times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was
jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the
alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the
driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described
them, “They looked like gangsters,” and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think
24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time
where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American
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settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were
very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees.
Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang
must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right?
Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think
our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival
gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in
Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings,
restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted?
Sheehan: Yes. Yeah.
Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for
FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston
who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a
shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one
shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I
think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was
featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, “Oh my God! We know
him,” but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada.
But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood
even, and then into adolescence.
Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social
changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those
two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life?
Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there
were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I
always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I
remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let
me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents-my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school
with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was
doing the homework and I'm like, “I did this like three years ago.” (laughs) Right? So I came home and I-and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I
wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, “Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you
want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting
dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the
eighth grade now.” So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and
went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started
to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we
got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school,
a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always
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maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like
that, top ten percent or whatnot.
But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today
we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that,
choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study
English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, “Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.” And my
parents were like, “Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right?
What are you going to do with it?” And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you
know, “Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.” And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I
should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the
University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home,
wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you
don’t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the
University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been
attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs
and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college
and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, “Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't
have to go to class. I’ll just figure it out later and take the test.” Because I told myself I was smart. So
when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in
college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my
confidence and so it—or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking “Well then maybe this is
not the life. College is not for me.” And going more towards thinking “Well maybe I'll just get a job,”
because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are
getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with,
they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And
it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, “I don't know what I'm going to
do.” And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level
science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically
just stopped college. I was like, “That's it. I'll just go get a job.” And figure out how I can help make some
money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off.
And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I
was like, “Okay,” something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within
the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught
up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to
incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was
just, “Okay, that's it, it's time to—" it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my
education. And that's when I decided, “Okay if I go back to school,” which I definitely wanted to do, “I
will study something that I want to.” And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents,
and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, “Yeah, you do whatever you want to
do. We're just happy you're alive!” And I thought, “Well, I will study law,” so that I can help my friends
who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system
works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, “Oh, maybe I
could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,” and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It
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was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came
back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that
was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of
the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can
change them.
Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that
happen?
Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot
pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie’s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool
halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool
halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs
see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That
has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very
used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool,
something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it
was kind of automatic, like, “Okay, we got to get out of here,” right? “We need to leave. Somebody could
come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.” So, I was already kind of
prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were
with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like-and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, “Okay, we got to get out of here!” And we
gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's
about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who
knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, “There's a
fight outside. We got to go!” So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as
we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the
car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the
car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, “Bang, bang, bang.” We'd
already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving,
and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I
thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right,
right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the
something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud,
like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even
realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend
peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of
when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, “Why
does my arm hurt so bad?” And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood
and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, “Fuck, I got shot!” right? And everybody's like,
“What, what, what!?” And so, I'm like, “Drive to hospital!” Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So,
my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet
and I'm sitting here thinking “What just happened?” And, then the pain is like, once you realize what
happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain
realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe just
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what happened.” And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most
painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, “Okay,
move your arm like this and move your arm like that.” And I was just like, “Ow!” It was so painful Robert,
and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did
whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I
remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was
trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the
hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital.
And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being
threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do
retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, “No, I don't want to, I don't want to
continue this.” Like, “If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end
this here.” I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not,
they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything.
Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing.
And so, I said, “Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and
whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,” right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident.
Sheehan: That's intense.
Ha: (laughs)
Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life.
Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I
was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing,
“Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.” Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of
shattered everything. He said, “Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's
tissue matter.” I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my
arm, my elbow. And he said, “Oh, you see that?” And so, he was pointing, and he said, “That's her artery.
So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to
amputate her arm.” And then he goes, “Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.” So, all the pieces were
around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He’s like, if that had been severed, she
would be paralyzed, right? He's like, “So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't
know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have
her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a
while to come back.” So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, “Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive.
I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.” And that context kind of made me
feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could
have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents
“Two millimeters.” That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So,
when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width.
And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, “Always look at this and you better succeed because the
universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't
screw it up.”
Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed.
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Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience.
Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing?
Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the
car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, “Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!” You know you
watch on TV and it's like, “Let me know if you're cold!” Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was
like, “I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it’s just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play
volleyball again.” Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical
therapist and he was like, “What are your goals?” I was like, “Well I want to play volleyball again.” And he
was like, “I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a
door. It's going to be how hard you work.” Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was
just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my
arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I
remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And
then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it
was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play
volleyball again. (both laugh)
Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then?
Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar
tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you
can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can
flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's
just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments
where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all
good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs)
Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your
left hand, is that what you had to do?
Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy,
we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write
again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, “I will write with my right hand!” So, I
practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned.
Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one?
Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change
their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, “Oh gosh, if I could
just change one person's life, it would mean everything,” right? Because this one woman, she really was
the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was
Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time
ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics.
Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, “People study Vietnamese
people?” It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. “Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah,
okay.” So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects
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with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we
feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say,
“Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.” And I will never forget. She's like, “Oh, I
know you.” she's like, “You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?” And I said, “No,” and she
said, “Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!” And just the fact that she knew that, I was
like, “Wow! I feel so special.” So, I said, “Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or
internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.” (laughs) And she was like, “You want to
go to law school, huh?” So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about
careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other
alternatives. She said, “Do you want to work eighty hours a week?” And I was like, “No.” And she said,
“Well, you know that’s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong
with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.” She was like, “Have you ever thought about being a
professor?” I said, “No.” She said, “Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,” right? But it is
flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment
where I said, “Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.”
And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, “How about you volunteer this
summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.” And I'm like, “Oh,
wow.” So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and
it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other
professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting
research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was.
And that same professor, she said, “I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at
the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there
by your side.” So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many
nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and
apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, “Oh, we're so proud of
you. You did so well!” And I'm like, “Oh my God.” (laughs)
Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead.
Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, “Your daughter should be a professor.” And
my parents like, “Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.” (laughs)
Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it.
Ha: Yeah.
Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a
teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well?
Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. “Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now
you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then
you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that
area.” And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, “If you want to apply to law school, go
ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.” So, I did look into taking
the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, “Oh man, that's really what
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I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,” and my parents were like, “Yeah, lawyers
are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.” (laughs) “You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're
a lawyer, do you want to do that?” That's my mom, right? Like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.”
So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project.
Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to
help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something
you use your degree for?
Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have
to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part
of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told
myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the
same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to
disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years
later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I
intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he
realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, “Just forget about us. We're not a reality
anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.” So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the
friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I
pretty much squashed it.
So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But
I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data
on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good
grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, “Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.”
So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly
communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of
understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where
they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that
was what I think we needed at the time.
Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even
told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like “I'm not going to tell anybody
that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a
relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.” I don't tell people that.
So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started
working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of
prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something
that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And
then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry.
People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about
prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got
to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of
the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those
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experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to
be the model minority. (laughs)
Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a
gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations
or how do we work to make things better?
Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask
me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch
supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it
drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, “We should
just do away with prisons,” prison abolition, like, “We don't need prisons in society.” And I think in a
utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could
have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings.
But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is
existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous
crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That
they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that
back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be
incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's
other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about
prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from
society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements.
And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and
policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have
emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as
before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make
amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've
done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is
some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life
sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young
and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, “Well, you're
done. We just need to be done with you in society.”
So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists.
Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do
great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean,
prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in
other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or
whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison
education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly,
for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into
psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they
work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of
the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system.
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Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep
people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted?
Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we
locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that
backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise
for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher
punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that
we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean,
let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully
developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth,
a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have
school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense,
right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in
school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile
detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the
problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in
an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run
institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they
can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those
institutions that just should not be for-profit.
Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated
for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that?
Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have
harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the
philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say
there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty
years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to
get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've
seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends
were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten
years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I
mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your
first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire
life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated
assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after
that. So that was in the nineties; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the
population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if
you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and
those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really
something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time,
and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in
prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and
not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit
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the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask
ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up.
Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some
sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time
served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck
with what they have?
Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned
time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do
twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, “Oh, you did that and
so you get out,” but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, “Okay, you've
changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,” people get released. But in
Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and
that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's
say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto
anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So,
if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state
of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however,
have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders.
And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your
question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are
going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state
crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not
going to get any like credit for good behavior.
Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking,
is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about?
Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very
expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking
on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I
also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean,
although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through
the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your
strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You
can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I
guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don’t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of
stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, “Well, I learned that on TikTok.” Okay, great.
But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But
in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug
addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were
privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where
they're like, “Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging
myself!” I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being
Transcribed by
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2022-04-19
educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are
going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs)
Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a
community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in
terms of education that those other platforms don't.
Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that
was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research
and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that
was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I
didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a
community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to
my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking
university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA
[Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I
remember thinking to myself, “Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do
with it?” And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's
different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet,
or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that
opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic
and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings,
and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries,
thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so,
what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, “I took one of your online classes,
it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much.
Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and
interact.” And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds
that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is
much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, “I'm going to take my first two years or three years
and get my general education out of the way.” So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit,
there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people
in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community
college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and
events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going
to a community college.
Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview.
Ha: Thank you so much.
Transcribed by
Robert Sheehan
17
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�
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Ha, Thao. Interview transcript. April 14, 2022.
Description
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Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at Mira Costa College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation.
Creator
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Thao Ha
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Robert Sheehan
Julia Friedman
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2022-04-14
Subject
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Education
Gangs -- Texas -- Houston
MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program
Refugees -- Vietnam
Transitions (Program)
Victims of violent crimes
Coverage
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Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam)
Houston (Tex.)
Saigon (Vietnam)
San Diego County (Calif.)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Thao Ha
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SC027-21
Type
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text
Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience
Community history
History Department internship
Immigrant experience
Women's experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/263b2399055fdac2b7ee4b09862c9925.pdf
c057803dbcbcd7c0815a75f8fc024020
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Goldberg, Merryl. Interview transcript, April 9, 2025.
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Dr. Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union.
This oral history was created in partnership with the CSUSM History Department and made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe.
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Merryl Goldberg
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Aaron Williams
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2025-04-09
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California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES
California State University San Marcos. Music
California State University San Marcos. School of Arts
Klezmer Conservatory Band
Klezmer music
Smuggling -- Soviet Union
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Boston (Mass.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
Soviet Union
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English
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GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_transcript
Activists and activism
Art and artists
CSUSM history
History Department internship
Jewish experience
Women's experience
-
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Oral Histories
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Oral History
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Aaron Williams
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Merryl Goldberg
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music;activism;arts education;censorship
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6.0 Goldberg, Merryl. Interview, April 9, 2025 SC027-078 01:28:23 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was conducted in partnership with the CSUSM History Department, and made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm California State University San Marcos. Music California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES Klezmer music Klezmer Conservatory Band Soviet Union Boston (Mass.) San Marcos (Calif.) Smuggling -- Soviet Union music ; activism ; arts education ; censorship Merryl Goldberg Aaron Williams Video GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/93e37e5636e5ef1f864f806c9067fbf1.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and roles on campus Goldberg discusses her roles on campus as a music professor and Director of Center ARTES at Cal State San Marcos. She describes their current project ART=OPPORTUNITY that encourages arts education for all students. With assistance from several funders, Goldberg enthuses about the capability of Center ARTES to implement creativity in curriculum across California. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 324 Family and music education Now a professional saxophonist, Goldberg shares where her love of music originated. She talks about being immersed in a creative household, pursuing the saxophone despite initial hesitancy from her parents, and joining the prestigious New England Conservatory of Music. Goldberg also shares about performing professionally with the Klezmer Conservatory Band. 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 659 Klezmer Conservatory Band After sharing about her musical education and introduction to klezmer music, Goldberg recounts the foundation of the Klezmer Conservatory Band with Hankus Netsky at the New England Conservatory of Music. After completing her education, she supported herself financially with performances and private lessons. Since most of the klezmer music was previously never written down, Goldberg describes being able to improvise, learn, and transcribe music. 0 ["[\"\"]"] 1198 Family background and Jewish identity Goldberg delves deeper into her family background. Although her parents were not musicians, she describes their creativity that was passed on to her. She recounts witnessing her grandfather play alongside jazz pioneers like Duke Ellington and Nat King Cole. Despite not knowing it at the time, Goldberg reflects upon growing up in a lower-income community that fostered a child's creativity and imagination. Subsequently, Goldberg shares more about her family background, her Jewish identity, and the foundational aspects of Judaism that encourage creative education. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1980 Secret code with sheet music After describing her musical education, family background, and Jewish identity, Goldberg discusses her experience in the Soviet Union. Providing meaningful historical context, she describes the dire situation in the USSR faced by minorities and freethinkers alike. Utilizing her musical education, she recounts devising a secret code with sheet music. Goldberg then elaborates on why she felt compelled to take action, and why documenting stories of Jewish persecution mattered. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2874 Music as resistance and arts education During her time in the USSR, faced with interrogation and possibly incarceration, Goldberg now reflects on music as a form of resistance. She expresses the importance of freedom within one's own mind, which can and should never be policed or censored by fascism and oppression. Goldberg then describes implementing and reinforcing this philosophy through her work as a professor. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 4042 Why histories matter Wrapping up her own shared story, Goldberg states why people's stories matter. Comparing the Soviet Union in the 1980s to the USA in 2025, Goldberg stresses the importance of empathy, nuance, and compassion. She further elaborates on the preservation of voices under persecution in the past and present. Additionally, she discusses the serendipitous revelation of her secret code and an upcoming book about her experience smuggling out stories of Jewish persecution in the Soviet Union. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:17.000 Okay. Today is Wednesday, the 9th of April 2025. For the Special Collections of California State University of San Marcos, my name is Aaron Williams. And I am interviewing Merryl (Goldberg). Thank you for joining me. How are you? 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:20.000 I'm doing great, thanks. Thanks for having me. 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:39.000 Yeah, of course. So, this is for the oral history project with Special Collections. You are a professor on this campus in the School of Arts and Director of Center for ARTES. Am I pronouncing that right? 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:40.000 Yep. Center ARTES. 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:44.000 Okay. Can I quickly ask about that and your role on campus? 00:00:44.000 --> 00:01:13.000 Yeah, sure. So I'm a professor, music professor. I've been here for over thirty years. And Center ARTES is a center dedicated to ensuring that all kids have access to arts education. Or arts integration in the classroom, and working with school teachers and districts to create those opportunities so people feel comfortable integrating the arts throughout the curriculum. 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:25.000 Okay, cool. So do you work -- what does that look like for you and like the work you do? Like, what is your role in, or—sorry. What specifically do the work you do, if that makes sense? 00:01:25.000 --> 00:05:03.000 Yeah. So specifically, the work of Center ARTES, right now we have our ginormous project called Art=Opportunity. So, under Center ARTES, Art=Opportunities, there's myself, there are multiple faculty fellows who, you know, other members of the faculty, both in the School of Arts and in the School of Education. And actually one of our partners from San Marcos Unified (School District) is a fellow as well. We have several projects. One big one is creating career pathways for people who want to become arts teachers in schools, or teachers on special assignment where they can integrate the arts into the curriculum. By that I mean using music to teach biology, or visual art to teach reading or dance and science. There's just so many ways that the arts can really be foundational to learning and to knowledge and to kids' excitement and creativity and using their imagination. It’s really a foundational skill, the arts are. So, that's one of our big projects. We also have a lot of STEAM (Science, technology, engineering, arts, and mathematics) projects, which mean arts integrated into math and science and engineering. In fact, we have a whole group of STEAM ambassadors who are students who go out into schools doing the curriculum, developing STEAM curriculum, implementing it in schools. We have some podcasting that we do. We have a project called Harmony Hacks (funded by National Science Foundation that encourages women’s participation in computer science) in cooperation with Computer Science folks, which is coding through music. That's a really cool project. That's a—we have other projects too. And in the past, we've done quite a few professional development projects in schools. The DREAM Project, which is Developing Reading Education through Arts Methods. And SUAVE (Socios Unidos para Artes Via Educacion—United Community for Arts Education), which is an arts integration project. In addition to the actual hands-on projects and boot camps for teachers and for student teachers, we do quite a bit of documentation and evaluation of the programs as well. So that's a important aspect of what we do. What we do translates and has become a model statewide in several instances. And that really is something that I think is great cause our reach goes beyond here. I mean, here would be enough, but the fact that our reach goes beyond is pretty great too. And we have support from a number of funders. The—currently the Hewlett Foundation (founded in 1966 by William and Flora Hewlett in 1966 which awards grants that support diverse and inclusive causes) has been really generous with their support of our work. As been the Heller Foundation (awards funding that advances environmental and arts education opportunities). In the past we've had the Stewart Foundation (dedicated to programs that develop fundamental leadership skills for youth). We currently have a National Science Foundation (independent federal agency that funds non-medical science and engineering programs) grant. We've had California Arts Council (state agency dedicated to Californian culture that promotes creative arts education), National Endowment for the Arts (independent federal agency that funds artistic development). So, we're really a pretty robust center. And I would suggest anybody who is interested in looking at it in more depth could always go to csum.edu/artopp. 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:32.000 Right, that's how I was researching this previously—prior to this interview. I love that you were talking about how far your reach has went beyond this campus using music. And I want to now specifically talk about your love of music and how that, or where that came from. 00:05:32.000 --> 00:07:49.000 Oh, that's a great question. I am a professional musician. I play saxophone. I was on the road for thirteen years performing professionally all over the world with a band called the Klezmer Conservatory Band (formed by Hankus Netsky in 1980 ; Goldberg was also a founding member). Klezmer music is Eastern European Yiddish music, kind of like the real version of Fiddler on the Roof (1964 Broadway musical by Jerry Bock, Sheldon Harnick, and Joseph Stein that was based on Sholem Aleichem’s character Tevye the Dairyman). I come from a really artistic family. My father was a visual artist, actually a graphic designer. And his father, my grandfather, played viola in the Boston Pops (offshoot of the BSO founded in 1885 that plays popular and classical music) and in the Boston Symphony (Orchestra or BSO ; founded in 1881, the second-oldest major American orchestra) and with big bands (also known as jazz orchestras ; ensembles of about ten or more musicians that popularized jazz and swing music during the 1940s). And later in life, my grandfather was the musical director at WEZE in Boston, a radio station. So as a little kid, I remember distinctly going to see my grandfather play on the (Charles River) Esplanade (state park) in Boston on, you know, on multiple concerts. Including July 4th seeing him up on the stage, listening to him play. And when we visited my grandparents, my two aunts who lived next door would come on over. And my Aunt Zelde played piano, and she was a piano teacher. My grandfather and my aunt would perform for us all the time when we were little. So I had music in my background and my— oh, and we had a record collection like crazy. And my dad played music always in the house. I even have pictures of myself with my dad when I was probably like a year and a half, or not even two, playing the bongos and having a record player right next door. So when I was in third, fourth grade, I knew I wanted to play music, and I really wanted to play the saxophone because I saw a picture in my music book of a saxophone. And there was just something about it, maybe it had so many buttons and it was shiny. I was dying to play a saxophone. 00:07:49.000 --> 00:10:49.000 I told my parents I wanna play saxophone. And they said, “No, it's a boys instrument. You'll have to pick something else.” So I picked guitar, but I never gave up on the saxophone. I started taking guitar lessons, which I also loved. And at the studio where I took the guitar lessons, the Buddy Reis studio in Somerset, Massachusetts, they taught all the instruments. And so, I asked if I could try playing saxophone. And they let me. (laugher) I took saxophone lessons on the sly. By the time I was going into high school, I told my parents that I really needed to play the saxophone at that point because I wanted to be in the marching band, no guitars in the marching band. They finally, finally relented and said, “Okay, you can play a saxophone.” I said, “Well, I actually know how to play saxophone. I just need one at this point.” And I had one of the best music programs probably in the state of Massachusetts, just absolutely incredible. Played a lot of music, was in the concert band, the symphonic band, the orchestra marching band. Got a lot of music education, ultimately decided that I really wanted to major in music. And was super lucky to have gotten accepted into New England Conservatory of Music (founded in 1867 in Boston, Massachusetts), which is a very elite music school. It's kind of like Yale is to Harvard (two private Ivy League universities that maintain prestigious reputations). New England Conservatory of Music, NEC, is to Julliard. If you know music schools. Really topnotch and I just loved it. I loved being at the conservatory. While I was there, performed all the time. Ended up being part of this band that we put together for a Jewish music concert. We ended up naming ourselves Klezmer Conservatory Band (and) played on a concert. People went nuts. And then built up a repertoire and we were just in demand. Constantly in demand for performances. Then a famous radio personality called— whose name is Garrison Keeler, on a radio show called Prairie Home Companion (weekly radio show from 1974 to 2016 that reached over four million Americans at its height), heard of us. And then we got national exposure and started recording, and it just built from there, there, there. I love music. I love listening to especially jazz, Brazilian music. Anything with a really good beat I really like. 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:58.000 Yeah, I love hearing this passion of music. It's— I hope you don't mind, it's gonna be a prominent theme of this conversation. (overlapping dialogue) 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:00.000 Yeah, sure. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:08.000 You were mentioning the Klezmer Conservatory Band, and you mentioned you formed it, or were you— How did that start? 00:11:08.000 --> 00:14:00.000 Yeah, so I was a student at New England Conservatory of Music, and I was really into Jewish music. Jewish music is really diverse because Jewish people are in the diasporas (referring to Jewish communities outside their historical lands, particularly after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE). So, there's Jewish music from, let's say, Columbia in South America, from Eastern Europe, from the Middle East. One of the musics I loved like crazy was Yemenite music. There's a lot of Jewish Yemenite music, which is, it's got such an interesting sound to it, like (Goldberg vocalizes a Yemenite tune). It's very circular and it's fun to play and you can dance to it. And then it turns out there's actually a lot of Jewish themed classical music as well. So, for fun, I connected with a professor there, Hankus Netsky (multi-instrumentalist and chair of Contemporary Improvisation Department at the New England Conservatory). And he and I decided, wouldn't it be fun to have a Jewish music concert? And that played music that was, you know, everything from classical to Yemenite. He was really interested in klezmer, cause he had an uncle who had played in klezmer bands. I had not even heard of klezmer. But between Hankus and I and like a whole group of students, we put together this really cool program, very diverse program. At the end of it, we played three klezmer tunes that Hankus had brought to us. Now we learned those tunes by ear because they weren't written down. They were recorded on old 78s (vinyl records that play at 78 revolutions per minute, largely discontinued by the 1950s). And so, we would listen to the music and transcribe it note for note. And then we played together. So, one of the pieces we played on our very first concert, I think was “Silver Wedding,” which is a very upbeat piece. It sounds like this (Goldberg vocalizes tune). And, you know, really upbeat. Audience went cuckoo after we finished playing, wouldn't stop clapping. We didn't have an encore. So, we just played that tune again. And the rest is kind of history with regard to the Klezmer (Conservatory Band). But that's how it all started. So in a way, I was one of the, I was clearly one of the founders of the band, along with Hankus. And Hankus was really the one who brought that music to all of us. So, there you have it. 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:04.000 Do you remember about like, the time period? So it was when you were in college? 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:15.000 Oh, yeah. So that was, that first music concert was probably 1979 or 1980. 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:18.000 And this is at the Conservatory— sorry, New York? 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:18.399 In Boston. 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:20.000 Boston. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:26.000 Yeah. New England Conservatory (overlapping dialogue) New England Conservatory of Music in Boston. 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:27.000 Gotcha. 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:34.000 Actually kitty-corner (diagonally opposite) to Symphony Hall (concert hall that hosts the Boston Symphony Orchestra since 1900). It's in that part of Boston where there's quite a lot of music. 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:41.000 I have never left California, so everything in the East Coast is New York to my ignorant brain. (laughter) I apologize. Boston. 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:49.000 That's okay. As long as you're not a Yankees fan, it doesn't matter. Boston Red Sox, Yankees, big rivalry. So-- 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:50.000 Love the Red Sox. 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:51.000 There you go. 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:57.000 So, you started the music, the Conservatory— sorry— 00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:59.000 Klezmer Conservatory Band. 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:10.000 Klezmer Conservatory Band in Boston around 1979. After you left the (New England) Conservatory, how did you pursue music still? 00:15:10.000 --> 00:16:12.000 Right, so, let's see. I graduated the Conservatory in ‘81. We were already performing professionally. You know, getting gigs in the Boston area and in the Philadelphia area, some in New York. And as the band’s popularity grew we continued to perform. So that's how I made my living, was performing with the band because I got paid for all the concerts. Also got paid to play parties and bar mitzvahs and wedding anniversaries and, you know, lots of things like that. So my, basically, I pulled together a living by performing teaching private lessons and I taught in a school part-time as a, you know, I was a music teacher. My degree from New England Conservatory of Music was in music education and saxophone performance. 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:24.000 Yes. So, going with the— while performing with— music in Boston, what music did you lean towards? I'm guessing jazz, klezmer music? 00:16:24.000 --> 00:17:25.000 Yeah, klezmer music. Again, kind of like the Eastern European music. So I performed a lot— I mean, that was my main gig, was playing klezmer music. But I also did gigs with other kinds of music. Mostly classical. I was part of a classical like modern music ensemble. And we performed at the (New England) Conservatory as well. And that would be music that was so fun to play, might not have been as fun to listen to. Some crazy pieces with nursery rhymes and saxophone, or a solo saxophone, or saxophone quartet. Different pieces that were basically like twentieth century music or twenty-first century newly composed music. 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:44.000 So it sounds like you really enjoy experimenting with music and seeing where it could go. (Goldberg affirms). Earlier you were mentioning writing— having to transcribe music. Or write music yourself, as there wasn't written (sheet music) previously. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:18:34.000 Ah, so the klezmer music, we learned all of that by listening to old recordings. Or finding older musicians who might have played the music and learning from them, because none of it was written down. So that's how we learned all of that. The klezmer music. And so what we did is we would listen to it— exactly, transcribe it, write it down. Although when we performed in concerts, basically because we had learned it all by ear, we just played without music, without sheet music in front of us. I could play easily play concerts without any, you know, music in front of me because I knew all the tunes. It's a lot more fun to play without the music anyways cause you're not constrained by it. 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:53.000 Yeah, I cannot fathom that. Like, I played music in middle school and stopped. So obviously my knowledge is not at your level, but it was always, I'm sure, impressive. Or was it just like, was it just like innate or did, how did you get to that level? Just being able to play without sheet music. 00:18:53.000 --> 00:19:56.000 Without sheet music, you know, I think for musicians, once you know the tune you can just play it basically. Like for— in this genre of music anyways, or in any folk area, even in jazz I would say. Classical's a little harder because you have to be very exact. In klezmer music, you can just play. But I know what you mean because I look at people who are in the theater. In a million years, I could never memorize a play. I don't know how people do it. I don't know how the heck they can remember it. But maybe it is the same as, you know, the skill I have in music to be able to just play a whole concert without any sheet music because I know it, right? (Williams affirms). I guess that's a skill that actors have that's just a different part of the brain. But I can’t in a million years imagine being able to do that. 00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:15.000 It's fascinating, so thank you for that perspective. Cause yeah, it's unimaginable for me, both instances, acting and music. Thank you for sharing the, about your love of music. And the instrument. Saxophone— It was so interesting hearing how your parents were like, no, that's a boys' instrument. 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:27.000 I know. Well, I'm old, you know, (laughs) and people had those, you know, those kind of biases back then. But, you know, ultimately my parents gave in. 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:28.000 Right, of course. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.000 Yeah. 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.000 Just the initial, like hesitancy. 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.000 Yeah. 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:42.000 Why do you think— cause again, I mean, I'm not from that time. But I would've thought, “But they'd let you play guitar?” That also seemed like a little— 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:51.000 What was, you know, like an acoustic guitar, not an electric guitar. Although eventually I got an electric guitar too. That was really fun. (laughter) 00:20:51.000 --> 00:21:05.000 That's so fascinating. So, your parents were obviously supporting your music. Did you learn, did you mention— sorry, I forget a little bit. They played klezmer music as well? 00:21:05.000 --> 00:23:02.000 So my parents were not musicians. My dad was a graphic designer. My mom was a teacher. And my mom also was just phenomenally talented. She made, she knitted, she sewed clothes, she made stained glass and these really unique collage pins with decoupage (crafting with glued cutouts in combination with paint or gold leaf). So, she was very creative. And my dad, of course, was a graphic designer, visual artist. And he also painted wonderful paintings. I have so many of them up in my home. My grandfather is the one who was also a professional musician, and he played classical music, but he also played jazz. He actually played with Duke Ellington (pianist, bandleader, and composer who is considered a pioneer of jazz) and Stan Kenton (Stanley ; jazz pianist and composer) with a guy named Paul Whiteman (bandleader, composer, and violinist recognized by Ellington as the King of Jazz). These are— back in the forties and fifties, there were the big bands would travel from city to city. And they actually had a whole string section with them. I mean, a string section that would play with them. But they didn't travel with the string sections. They were hired in each town. So my grandfather was always hired. Yeah, we have pictures of him with Nat King Cole (singer, pianist, and actor who pioneered jazz ensembles and achieved crossover success during the civil rights movement), and other famous folks. And he played with him. And I remember as a kid, you know, he would tell me, “Oh yeah, I'm going off. They're playing with the Duke Ellington” (band) this, or like I said, I saw him perform both on the stage and in the apartment where they lived. And just out, well, basically part of Boston, Chelsea (city across the Mystic River from Boston). So, yeah. 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:10.000 That sounds like an amazing upbringing and experience. Just being immersed in music and the arts, even your parents— 00:23:10.000 --> 00:25:12.000 Oh, it was amazing. And my grandfather who played viola—well, both sets of grandparents lived in what would— could be described as tenements. So, tenements are like apartment buildings where there are a lot of people living. And really lower, lower middle class if that. And you know, when you're a little kid, you don't know about any of this stuff. So I would go to my grandparents' apartment and, in Chelsea, Massachusetts, and it was it was like fairy land because my grandmother would be yelling down the stairs to the downstairs neighbor, “Ida, bring up this, bring up that.” And we'd go off the in the balcony and play in an area that's like a back alley. We'd go in the back of a store that you could get to from the alley. And in the meantime, the apartment really only was a very small one, maybe two bedroom apartment. My grandparents, when I thought about it later, their bedroom was actually what should have been the dining room. But they, there wasn't enough room, right? So, they made their dining room into their bedroom. And, but again, it was such a lively, wonderful place. I mean, I loved it as a little kid. And it didn't occur to me that it was very inner city, very poor. But what a fun place to live. And just all the commotion and the music and the people everywhere. It was like a little kid's dream. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:31.000 Yeah. It sounds like a fairy land. And even though you said it's lower income, just being surrounded by music and the commotion. I want— 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:50.000 Yeah, they even had a— when you came into the apartment, there was a very long corridor. And we used to— we had a plastic bowling set. And my cousins and I, and my brother, we'd always bowl (laughter) in the hallway. 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:54.000 That's funny. And you made your own little bowling alley. That's really cool. 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.000 Yeah. 00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:13.000 What-- (laughter) For me, we just did hopscotch. I never thought to make a bowling alley. That's really fascinating. (Goldberg agrees) Do you have any other memories like that? What else? How else did you— did you convert any of the other rooms into anything else? Indoor aquarium? 00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:28.000 Well, the bathroom there had a— I don't even know if it had a shower, but it had a big clawfoot tub I remember loving as a little kid, taking baths there. That was just so much fun. 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:30.000 I’ve only seen those like in movies. 00:26:30.000 --> 00:27:02.000 I know. And I'm very lucky cause I live— I was able, because of being, I was born in 1959. My parents were all first generation (American citizens). My grandparents were all immigrants. And they, because they were immigrants, they had what I would call kind of old country traditions and way of thinking. 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:04.000 Did they immigrate? Where did they immigrate from? 00:27:04.000 --> 00:28:20.000 Eastern Europe. All of my grandparents escaped before the Holocaust. And my father's family ended up in Chelsea in the Boston area. My mom's family ended up in New Bedford, which is also outside of Boston. And then my family did, just my father's side, part of the family came to Boston, part of the family went to Israel, part of the family went to Brazil. Interesting fun fact, family fun fact, there are musicians in each of the— like my Brazilian cousins, there's an opera singer and opera— you know, there's several musicians. My Israeli cousins I have a cousin named Gila Goldstein, who is absolutely a top-notch pianist. She's president of the (American) Liszt Society (promotes and preserves the legacy of Hungarian composer Franz Liszt). She's just an amazing, amazing pianist. And then, you know, you've got me as the saxophonist. But it's just kind of cool that somehow the genetics of our family on that side we have a lot of musicians. 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:28.000 Yes. Seems the musician is linked to, I'm assuming that's the Jewish side of your family. 00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:30.000 Yeah, yeah. Actually, all sides of my family are Jewish, so— 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:32.000 Okay. I didn't know. 00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.000 There you have it. 00:28:34.000 --> 00:29:06.000 There we go. (laughter) That's so fascinating that music transcends generations and continents. (Goldberg affirms) I wanted to hear more about your upbringing, and were you closely— my upbringing was outside of religion, like Judaism, Christianity, all of it. So, I'm very naive to all of it. Was, is the term secular? Or were you immersed in the traditions (of Judaism)? 00:29:06.000 --> 00:32:36.000 I am, at this point I'm pretty much a secular Jewishly identified human. Growing up— and again, I think this was because when you consider my grandparents were all immigrants escaping Eastern Europe because they were Jewish. My grandmother lived through pogroms (violent attempts to massacre ethnic minorities, particularly Jewish people) in Eastern Europe. My mother's mother. They had, they escaped really terrible things. Jewish identity was something that was really important to my parents, my grandparents. We went to temple, a conservative temple. So Jewish, you have: reform, conservative orthodox, ultra orthodox, and then there's like a whole bunch of stuff in between. We were conservative, which means kind of middle of the road. Early on our family kept kosher (foods conforming to the regulations of kashrut, Jewish dietary law), but then we didn't, many of my cousins still keep kosher. That's a food thing. Dietary laws. And I went to Hebrew school on like two days a week during the week. I went to Friday night services, Saturday morning services, and Sunday school. So I was essentially at the temple five days a week. It was something that was an identity for sure. And I really, I enjoyed Hebrew school. I went all the way through Hebrew high school. And part of that was because in the, in Jewish learning, one of the things that's really central is that a love of learning, and B. that there are multiple ways to interpret things. So I love that. You know, take a portion— there's a book called the Talmud (source of Jewish religious law and theology), which is commentary on what's in the Torah (first five books of the Hebrew Bible). And the Torah is like, you know, how you live by the rules. And so there can be, I don't know, eight or twelve commentaries on the same thing. And, you know, there's just a sense of, “Let's debate, let's discuss.” I kind of wish people did more of that now. And, you know, not about religious things, but just about everyday things. So, my Jewish upbringing really was, I think, foundational in enabling me to see things from multiple perspectives and really embrace that multiple perspectives exist on things. Over the years, my, I guess connection to organized religion has waned. You know, I'm not interested in going to temple at this point, but I really do love the culture. I love the underlying love of learning. You know? That's really part of Judaism. And I feel really proud to be someone of Jewish heritage. 00:32:36.000 --> 00:33:09.000 Yeah, that makes sense. Because you mentioned the underlining love of learning and multiple perspectives, or approaches to that learning. And so with that, it makes sense that multiple people who are Jewish in your family then apply that through music. I want— interested— previously in our conversation and in music, you mentioned coding with music. Right. Right. Right. Right. 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:09.066 Right. 00:33:09.066 --> 00:33:10.000 Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. And I don't know how else to jump to that— 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000 Yeah. 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.000 So I'll just start there— 00:33:14.000 --> 00:35:10.000 So let me, I'll give you a little history on this cause yeah, you can find I've— people know about this story, so I will tell it. So, in 1985 in the world, there was a different world order. There was a Soviet Union, it had not broken up yet. And the United States. In the Soviet Union, there were a lot of people that wanted to leave, they wanted religious freedom, they wanted freedom of intellect, of thought, of culture. And the Soviet government was really coming down on people who wanted something other than what the Soviet, what the Soviet government wanted. So Jewish people were persecuted. Catholic people were persecuted ; Poets, artists, scientists, people who were thinking outside the box. There were some very famous scientists who were jailed. (Andrei) Sakharov (physicist and Novel Peace Prize laureate) is one of them, but— so it was a crazy time. There were a lot of human rights abuses going on. And if people wanted to leave the Soviet Union, specifically Jewish people, they could apply for a visa to leave, to immigrate. But in so doing, they would often lose their jobs, maybe get beaten up or their kids harassed or even put into jail as a disruptor. 00:35:10.000 --> 00:36:41.000 It also was the height of the Cold War. And it turns out, in hindsight it was a crazy time of real spies. Both in the US from Soviet Union, Soviet Union in— US people in the Soviet Union. And it was the heightened tensions of that time were phenomenal. But most people didn't know about the, those governmental heightened tensions. What we did know was one way to get information and to support Jewish people specifically— cause I was working with groups that supported Jewish, what were called Refuseniks, meaning that they had applied to leave and were refused— was to get tourist visas to go into the Soviet Union. Go visit Jewish refuseniks and bring them medicine or information about their field. If someone was an engineer, and now because they applied to leave, they might be an elevator operator. Bringing in like professional information that they couldn't get anymore. And taking out their stories, because there was a feeling at the time, and I think that's true today, is if people in the West (term often referring to nations in Western Europe, Northern America, and Australia) know about human rights abuses and the people, then they have some sort of opportunity to get out. Or for protection. 00:36:41.000 --> 00:37:19.000 Because if no one knows about you, it's easy for them, meaning a government— And I mean, what's going on today in our government is similar and very scary— but you could be disappeared. So having people know about you is really important. There was a reporter from Britain who worked for The Guardian (news)paper, who had gone into Soviet Union and somehow made his way to the state of Georgia. Georgia in the Soviet Union, okay? Not Georgia, here in the United States. 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:20.000 Thank you for the clarity. 00:37:20.000 --> 00:41:09.000 And now it's a country, and found this group of amazing human rights activists. That included Jewish refuseniks, Catholic Refuseniks, dissidents, meaning people who were trying to change the government. Helsinki monitors. The Helsinki Accords were that everyone should be able to leave a country if they were being persecuted. So, there were all these people in Tbilisi, Georgia (capital city) who had gathered together. And the way they were trying to get their word out to the West was by playing music and holding concerts. And they called themselves The Phantom Orchestra. So once a couple of organizations in the West heard about this Phantom Orchestra, they thought, “Okay, let's see if we could find any musicians who would be,” in my words, “crazy enough to go in and meet with them.” Because going in, there was a certain risk that you could get harassed or, hardly anyone ever got arrested, but deported. And the reason to go in to meet them would be to bring them support, you know, just support people to people ; to take their stories out, to find out more about them. There was a group in Boston that was aligned with Amnesty International (an international non-governmental organization that supports human rights), which is a famous group that works on behalf of people who are, have been victims of human rights abuses. And the group in Boston was called Action for Soviet Jewry. So, people who worked on behalf of Jews, Jewish people in the Soviet Union who were refuseniks or had been jailed, this or that. They approached Hankus, who I mentioned earlier, and said, “We'd like to send in a small ensemble of musicians to go meet with these folks. Would you be game?” And Hankus right away was game. And then he thought, “Merryl probably would be really interested”. So he approached me and I thought, “Heck yeah, I'm in.” And then we needed a singer and someone who played like guitar and mandolin. The singer's name is Rosalie Gerut, and the guitarist is Jeff Warschauer. And we all played together in Boston. And long story short, we— the four of us agreed to go in, but it had to be on the sly. We couldn't tell anybody what we were doing because it, you couldn't go in on, especially on a tourist visa and go visit people. It had to be done in secret. Moreso you couldn't go in and have refusenik's names or addresses or phone numbers written down, because if upon arrival they were discovered you'd be deported right away. They would know that you weren't ordinary tourists. And so we were, we got visas, we got tourist visas, and of course we brought in instruments with us so we could play. Which is already a little bit of a, you know, anomaly cause tourists often don't come in with musical instruments, right. But we were a small ensemble and, we said, “Well, we always travel with our instruments cause we always rehearse.” So we had to develop a secret code so we could write down people's information, write down questions we needed to ask, be able to take out stories in code. And so I developed a secret code written in music notes. 00:41:09.000 --> 00:43:12.000 And what was really amazing was we arrived in Moscow (capital and largest city of the Soviet Union, now Russia), and maybe they had gotten some tip off that we were coming and wanted to meet people. Or maybe our instruments gave us away. But right at arrivals in Moscow, we all were searched thoroughly. I mean, just crazy. Opened up everything in our suitcases and went through my music ; page by page by page, but then handed it back. That was score one for our ability to fight the KGB (Committee for State Security of the Soviet Union that succeeded secret police) or be in competition with the KGB. Of course, then we ended up being interrogated. And that part was pretty scary. Ultimately, we made it from Moscow to Tbilisi. And by hook or by crook, we did end up meeting with the Phantom Orchestra and performing with them in an apartment, not in a (concert) hall. And orchestra really wasn't the right word. It was more like a ragtag group of musicians. And they told us their stories and we wrote them and we recoded it back in music so we could take it out with us. And these were stories of how people's lives were upended and how much like sadly what's going on right now in our country. People were taken off the street, locked up, put in jails just because of their activism for wanting to buck the system. And just asked to leave the country or for wanting to monitor human rights. 00:43:12.000 --> 00:45:34.000 So, I will say two things. The people we met were phenomenally courageous human beings. And two, playing music together was how I learned that even under the harshest of circumstances, one can find freedom, freedom in your mind. And that's freedom over anyone who is either jailing you or harassing you. You have that power to be free in your brain. No matter what happens. So, during the course of that trip, we were interrogated, harassed, at one point told we— the KGB told us they couldn't guarantee our safety. We told this to the people we were meeting who gave us advice and said, “Look, it might, you might end up getting arrested,” which ultimately we did. “Keep in mind, you are not the first to be arrested.” You know, “you are part of a whole group of people. Know that. Two, play music even if you're just singing together cause that will give you respite. Three, remember that because you're Americans, it's unlikely they will keep you for a very long time.” You know, “You'll be some kind of bargaining chip for something, but you'll get out.” And ultimately we were put under house arrest. The, probably the, well, by the time we were put under house arrest, we had become emboldened because the people we met were so strong and capable and very laser centered in what they knew they needed and wanted with regard to the rights of humanity. So we started talking back to KGB and we're crazily bold in hindsight. The only time that, well, there were a number of times that were scary. Interrogations were scary. 00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:37.000 I can imagine. 00:45:37.000 --> 00:47:53.000 Yeah. (laughter). Yeah. And at two times they put us, they separated Rosalie and I, put— I mean, separated Rosalie and I from Hankus and Jeff, put us in cars. Rosalie and I were in one car, Jeff and Hankus were in another car. There were KGB car in front of us, KGB car in back of us. We didn't have our passports. They took those away. I don't even think we had our luggage. I know we didn't have our luggage in at least one circumstance. Drove us for hours. At that point, I thought, “Oh God, they really are gonna lock us up, like in a bad prison.” Ultimately they didn't, they put us in a dormitory. But those tactics were meant to scare us. But I do remember having an epiphany at one point, especially in the very long car ride, thinking, “Okay, whatever happens, I can handle this. It's gonna be okay.” So end of story, we were deported. We ended up in Sweden and we ended up back in the United States. We worked with not only Jewish organizations, but with Catholic charities. We worked with our senator, who was Ted Kennedy (lawyer and Massachusetts Senator from 1962 to 2009) at the time. And we also worked on the Hill (Capitol Hill, home to Congress, the Supreme Court, and other federal institutions) in Washington, DC with many members of Congress and many members of the Senate. And ultimately, when (Ronald) Reagan (US President from 1981 to 1989) and (Mikhail) Gorbachev (Soviet Union leader from 1985 to 1991) had their summit, human rights was on the top of Ronald Reagan's list (Reykjavík Summit October 11th and 12th, 1986). And many of the people that we had met were actually named on lists that Reagan brought to Gorbachev. So ultimately, many of the people that we met with were freed and let, able to lead the Soviet Union. Some people disappeared into wherever, and we're not sure what happened to some people. But the people who really wanted to get out ended up being able to get out. So it was a real life changing experience, I can tell you that. 00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:17.000 Yeah. It's amazing to know that you were able to help other people get freed from that kind of persecution. I love what you were saying about freedom in the mind, and you learning that, and you having that epiphany in the car. I'm just curious more— I'm curious to hear more about that concept and your like— 00:48:17.000 --> 00:50:30.000 Yeah, so another like really good example of this, I don't, I didn't know it at the time, but I learned it afterwards. So, during the Civil Rights Movement here in the United States, it was very common when African American activists were being picked up and put in paddy wagons for their outspokenness and for their— look for their fight, for just human rights as people. Often when they were arrested, they would break out in song. And that is so powerful because it's taking power, it's taking space. That song, singing together, is saying, “You might have us, locked up, or you might have us in handcuffs, you might have us in paddy wagons, but we are still strong. And our music gives us that strength. And you can never take that away from us. You can lock us up, you can do whatever you want, but you can't take away: our sense of what is right, our power, and our work to achieve civil rights.” So I think music, music and sports, or chess, many of these things give people not only pleasure and entertainment but give you the tools to under harsh circumstances ; whether they're something that happens with your family that's just unfortunate or something that happens in school, or kids who get bullied. The arts can be that retreat to center yourself and empower yourself and give you confidence to be able to make it through things. 00:50:30.000 --> 00:51:02.000 Right. And it makes sense that then you apply that to your work here with ART=OPPORTUNITY and Center ARTES. Giving people—reassuring freedom in the mind, and your ability to create art is—you can use those tools elsewhere. I love hearing how people can apply creativity in the real world. So how do you help students? How do you remind students of that? 00:51:02.000 --> 00:52:52.000 You know, it's by doing. So all my classes and all of our professional development workshops, whether for students or teachers or administrators or staff, all of them are hands-on, where we give people things to do. So I'll give you a little example. One of my favorite things is— I'll give it not a music example, a drawing example. drawing from the inside out. Let's say you have, I'll give you a shell and I won't tell you where it is. Oh, I can make it a music example too. But I'll give you the shell example. I'll have my students draw a shell, like, but in a fun way, like either upside down or from the middle and draw out. And while they're drawing, I ask them two questions, “One, what do you notice and what do you wonder?” When they're drawing the shell, they notice, “Oh, it has different colors, it has stripes, it has ridges, it has a little hole in it, it's chipped. It's got white on the inside and gray on the outside, or some of it looks iridescent.” And then they're noticing all these things. And then I ask them, “What do you wonder?” Well, “Where did the shell come from? Why does it have colors? Like, how the heck does it— Why does this, shell have these colors and that shell has different colors, and how come they're ridges.” And, “Did something live in this shell? Did something eat the thing that was living in the shell. Was the shell always this size? How did it get to be this size?” So, this little tiny exercise sparks curiosity, and curiosity is the bottom line of learning. 00:52:52.000 --> 00:55:16.000 You know, if you're curious about something— and if kids in schools can become curious and have all these questions, your job as a teacher is to just then guide them to find out all the answers. In music, what I'll do, like I play my saxophone all the time when I do keynotes, and I'll do the same thing. I'll play a tune. It's usually a klezmer tune. I usually play a very simple klezmer tune where if I can get an accompanist on guitar or piano, it has only two chords. Very easy to play. And the piece actually sounds like this. (Goldberg vocalizes tune) Anyways, it keeps— it goes on. And I ask people to, you know, anyone from little kids to senior citizen, “What do you notice?” And then, “What do you wonder when you hear the music?” And what they notice, they notice, “Oh, it has a beat. Oh, I'm music— I'm moving.” They notice a, that it has sounds like maybe something— little kids will always say, “Oh, it sounds like something from Aladdin. Or maybe a snake charmer, or—” they notice so many things. And then when I ask 'em, “What do they wonder?” They're like, “How did you learn to play that tune? Where is it from? Does it have a name? What is it really about?” And in fact, the music has just, again, sparked so much curiosity within that little tiny kernel (central or essential part) of a five minute exercise of, “What do you notice, what do you wonder?” They've hit on, okay: culture, history, geography, how people learn to play. It’s just so, it's so rich. And so, yes, for me, engaging and getting people to understand about the power of the arts and learning is all about by engaging them in some kind of exercise. 00:55:16.000 --> 00:57:39.000 And then one of the really cool things is every exercise is just a kernel. So, if you go back to the shells, you can look at the kids, or teachers, what they notice and what they wonder, what they've written down. Ask them to circle five words and then create a poem out of it, and then create a two person poem out of it, or create a song, or you can always do more. You can always learn more from what has been sparked. Now the importance of that is: creativity is always gonna be the thing that moves us forward, right? So, knowing a lot of facts is good, and knowing history is really good. Cause we need the foundations and we can go to Google or whatever and find things out very quickly these days. Don't even have to look it up. But being creative, being imaginative, being reflective, seeing what other people do and appreciating it, those are the skills that arts can teach us that I find just so phenomenal. And the arts bring us together in ways where we see each other in different lights. If this group makes this poem or acts something out in this way, this group is like, “Oh, wow, I had never thought about that. Or I never knew that kid could act or could sing or, wow.” And so one of the byproducts of the arts is also this opportunity to embrace compassion and empathy. And, oh my God, if there's one thing in this world that we've got to have if we're gonna survive as a civilization, is empathy. And so, I get really worried when I hear some people in government or not government, poo-pooing the notion of empathy or compassion. 00:57:39.000 --> 00:59:27.000 And we've got to, got to place empathy, compassion, mindfulness as central to, in my opinion, to who we are as people and how we learn. And that’s why I really do love the arts. By the way, I also am a boxer. I've been boxing for years, and I love it. It's so much like music. Jab, jab, cross, uppercut, uppercut (motions as demonstration) is very much rhythmic. But one of the things if you watch a boxing match is it's not only like music in terms of the actual rhythm of the punches, but in a boxing match itself it's very much like jazz. It's all improvisation because you have to be so connected with your opponent that you are paying close attention. And if they do one thing, you do another thing. So it's playing off of each other, playing off of each other. And, the actual punching aside, at the end of a boxing match, almost always, you see the boxers embrace each other. That's because it's been such a intimate dance with each other, and they're very appreciative of each other. Before a fight, they're gonna be talking whatever, because that's what their mindset is. But when you're actually engaged in something like that in boxing, it really is a very close—you're so connected to that person that it's not surprising to me to see that at the end of matches, more often than not, folks embracing each other. 00:59:27.000 --> 01:00:22.000 Thank you for explaining that cause I've never been into the boxing, or whatever. So, the comparison of boxing— I've heard the dance (comparison), but like I still didn't understand. I'm—yes, the, but specifically the jab, jab punches, like as rhythmic, that really clicked in my brain. And as you were saying—or I was thinking this earlier, a lot of what I've learned in most of my favorite classes as a student, they've stuck from music that either a guest has come into my class and performed. Or just remembered that in connection to a lesson. Or it's a movie. So, can you talk more about STEAM and how you integrate art with other professions that maybe some people respect a little more, to be blunt? 01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:24.000 Oh, like, give me a profession. 01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:26.000 So— 01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:31.000 Oh, go ahead. Nevermind. I, well no, you give me a profession actually, and then I can tell you. 01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:42.000 Yeah. Cause my, in my brain, it's like, as a history major, I understand I'm not gonna be making as much money as like an engineer, let's say. So, engineering, I guess. 01:00:42.000 --> 01:03:31.000 Engineering. Great. Okay. Indeed, we actually did a little study over at ViaSat (communications company), which is a huge—has a lot of engineers. So, they’re high tech company, very into the internet. And if you've been on an airplane, it's pretty much ViaSat’s, whatever it is. Their systems that run the internet on airplanes. Okay, I had heard that Qualcomm (software and wireless technology company) and Boeing (aircraft manufacturer) and ViaSat were hiring people who had arts backgrounds because they really wanted engineers, especially people that worked there, who could: think outside the box, work well with each other, have the ability to reflect, and also be super disciplined, right? So, they were purposefully hiring people who had arts backgrounds, cause they figured people in the arts, especially in music, or any of the arts, can think outside the box. Musicians have to work well with each other, have to be able to—in a band you can't be just playing the trombone and the trumpet player playing something different. You have to work together in order to make a nice piece of music. So, we did a study and we found out that indeed most of the engineers at ViaSat had arts in their background. And then we went a step further and we asked, “Okay, how did the arts make a difference in what you're doing?” And some of the engineers said, “It helped me think about electrical kind of connections in ways that were out of the box.” So, “My music background gave me the ability to think in different ways and see things from different angles. It helped me work with others, especially people I didn't like. Because in a music band, I had to work with people I didn't like in order to make music, right? Helped me—" And so you can see those are just two examples of that. We actually have more written about that study on the art— It's, I think the Center ARTES (online) site. We have our research studies, or the ART=OPPORTUNITY. If you go into research, we have those studies. But let me give you a couple of other examples. 01:03:31.000 --> 01:04:52.000 Medical students at UCSD right here are required to take visual arts classes because the visual arts, learning how to see closely, helps them understand and how to diagnose things better. It gives them those skills of looking at things more deeply and from different angles. An ophthalmologist I met with just like within the last month, sent me a study where they had a first, like first year ophthalmology students, so people who studied the eyes, and they broke them into two groups. One group of students, about thirty of them, had six lessons in how to look at art. And the other group didn't have the lessons at all. And then they were tested on the things that they could see in the eye, because they're studying to be eye doctors, right? The students who had the art classes outperformed the students that were in the control group. Like crazy. In a significant manner. It shows you studying the arts can absolutely then transfer over to other areas. 01:04:52.000 --> 01:06:57.000 NYPD, New York Police Department, has their recruits watch theater. And one of the theater pieces that they have done is a piece by Janet (Leola Langhart) Cohen (American author and journalist), written as a fictional version of Emmett Till and Anne Frank (titled “Anne and Emmett”). Emmett Till was a young boy who was murdered (during the) Civil Rights era (in 1955), black young man. And Anne Frank was murdered in the—she died in (1945) a concentration camp during the Holocaust. And Janet Cohen wrote this amazing play, which is not depressing it actually is in some ways uplifting, of the two of them having a conversation with each other. And the reason why NYPD in the past has used this play is because they want their recruits to be empathetic to the people that they serve, and they really understand the power of theater as a way to teach about empathy. So that's another example. Also in New York, the public library has this really cool program for new citizens on teaching how to learn history. So this is a really cool thing. They do it all through famous paintings in American history. And what they found is because people are attaching what they're learning to this really cool visual, a famous painting, they remember the history lessons so much better and do so much better on the test, the citizenship tests. Those are just a couple of examples, in real life, how the arts make it a real difference in learning. 01:06:57.000 --> 01:07:24.000 Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Just from a professor who actually implements some of these things here, and obviously beyond as you mentioned earlier, it's— I've always valued the, being immersed in arts and classes, so thank you for for doing that. I feel like it's probably your responsibility that I've gotten some of the classes I've gotten. 01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:24.956 Aw, thanks. 01:07:24.956 --> 01:07:46.000 Yeah, of course. (brief interruption in recording) Okay. So earlier you were mentioning music was how you got people's stories out. I was, I'm particularly want to ask about why was it so important to get people's stories out? Like what about their stories mattered? 01:07:46.000 --> 01:10:59.000 Yeah. So to get the stories out meant that people in the West could then use those stories as a way to highlight the human rights abuses that were going on. And by highlighting it, it was harder for the Soviets then to imprison or to disappear people, because if people in the west knew about you, you would have a much better possibility of actually getting a visa to leave. If people didn't know about you, it would be easy to, say, “Eh,” for the Soviets to do whatever they wanted. I, you know, at the time we're doing this, oral history is at, you know, a crazy point in American history with Trump being the president only for a couple months. And already there's been people who have disappeared or been taken off the street or out of classroom, a classroom. And so what we found, even in our time in history, keeping those people's names and what happened to them front and center means that there's less of a possibility of something horrible happening to them. In the case of a family from New York, it was a mom and three kids, and they were actually taken. I'm not sure if it was from their home or for, from school, but the school principal and the whole town, in this small town in New York, were so upset by this and so distraught. And these were folks who were in the process of having all of their paperwork correct. Had done nothing wrong. Well, the town spoke up in a way that was significant, and as of today, they're back in their homes. And so there is real power in making sure that others, or people in power are held to account. And that people, things don't happen to people without justification. Because when that happens, we really, as a people, are in a terrible, horrible place. Especially for the people who are taken and have done absolutely nothing wrong. So again, you've caught me at this, this moment in history where I see things that happened in the former Soviet Union or perhaps are happening in Russia today, happening here in the United States. It's just unconscionable. So, it makes what we did in my experiences, even more important as a story today. 01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:24.000 Absolutely. Do you think if you had spoken to yourself, as you were developing this code in which we talked about, would you have thought that Merryl would then be sitting in this room, in the state that this country is in? 01:11:24.000 --> 01:13:24.000 No. Never. And I think most people probably feel that way. My guess is even folks who supported Trump, or Republicans or whatever, I don't think anybody expected things to be as cuckoo, crazy, upside down, scary as they are in this particular moment. And I don't think, it makes me really wonder why, especially in the House of Representatives or the Senators, why it's taking so long for people to stand up. Especially when people's rights are jeopardized. We should be better than that. We should know better than that. Bullies should never win. If it takes even, you know, one person to one person or movements to really just crush things that shouldn't happen, then we have to rise up. I really feel that. And I also feel like in moments like this where people might feel so frightened or scared, maybe some people like what's going on, but I doubt it. It's also important not to get so caught up in everything that you can't find moments of joy. And that's where the arts also help us, or getting out of our heads. Or, for me, playing music and going to my boxing classes are moments where I'm not thinking about anything else. And boy, is that a self-resourcing tool. 01:13:24.000 --> 01:13:45.000 Right. Earlier you mentioned art as an escape, but then in the same breath, an escape from maybe awful times, but also in that escape you're learning tools or just learning different, gathering different skills that you can use elsewhere. 01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:47.000 Yeah, for sure. 01:13:47.000 --> 01:14:22.000 Yeah. well thank you again for sharing about music and how it can be applied to activism. I want to now talk about how you—sorry. Where that originates from. Earlier you were mentioning growing up and having activism in your family, or— 01:14:22.000 --> 01:17:23.000 Yeah. So, I think many people of my age who are Jewish, most likely their grandparents immigrated. So they came from very bad situations where they had to escape either the Holocaust or pogroms which were in Czarist Russia (Imperial Russia 1547 to 1917) or other countries where Jewish people were just— like in “Fiddler on the Roof,” come in and just destroy everything or it is just terrible. So when people came here, I think there was a sense of like, never again. And certainly after the Holocaust, “Never forget, never again” (a phrase that encourages people to denounce the Holocaust and other genocides) is something that's very important. But growing up, my parents were very attuned to that, a just society where people have opportunities. And so as a kid, my mom was very active in starting a chapter of the League of Women Voters in Massachusetts, which was, today, League of Women Voters is so important. It gives information to the public on different voting issues, and candidates. It’s a nonpartisan group. As a little kid, my mom would have me parade around our little town just outside of Boston. My dad put a, made a sandwich board and it said, “Follow me to register to vote.” So I remember those things. And then I grew up in the sixties. I was young in the sixties. I was born in 1959. During that time, we had the Vietnam War, and a lot of people were protesting against the Vietnam War. And my family, along with many, many other families in our little community joined up with the Unitarian Church (a sect of Christianity), who was very active in anti-Vietnam protests. And so that was part of my upbringing as well. And through Jewish groups, we also were always learning and figuring out issues of social justice. It was baked into my childhood, there's no question about it. That from a very early age, being someone who is active in society and was doing things to make a difference in a better world was part of, part of who I was. I, there was no escaping it, not that I would want to escape it— (Goldberg laughs) 01:17:23.000 --> 01:17:28.000 Right. Do you think it's ever too late to become— 01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:29.000 Never. 01:17:29.000 --> 01:17:30.000 Engaged? 01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:32.000 Never too late to become engaged. 01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:35.000 How does one start? 01:17:35.000 --> 01:18:08.000 I think by first just understanding that there are multiple sides to any picture. There are— it's really important to understand context and to learn and be curious, and always question things. So, especially now, just cause you see something on the internet doesn't mean it's true. As convincing as it may seem— 01:18:08.000 --> 01:18:09.000 With AI (artificial intelligence). 01:18:09.000 --> 01:18:11.000 And with AI, that— (overlapping dialogue) 01:18:11.000 --> 01:18:12.000 Oh, sorry, you were saying that-- 01:18:12.000 --> 01:20:40.000 Yeah, no, that's really, I mean— my daughter, who's twenty-six, uses AI all the time. And she's discerning. But yeah, you gotta really question things, you know? But it's really important to look at things from multiple lenses and to always keep a lens of fairness, of equity, of background. It's understanding that not everyone has had the same opportunity as other people, and that's no fault of their own. And I think one thing that's really lost in a lot of what's going on right now is again, a lack of caring. It matters that people are losing their jobs. It matters that someone who's doing research in pediatric cancer is able to continue doing that research. The lack of empathy in our society right now, or maybe not our society, but in our leaders, in the people who are in power, is shocking. And it is never too late for people to stand up. It's never too late to keep trying. It's never too late to vote people out. It's never too late to do something small or to do something big. What is a lesson that I've learned is that silence is being complicit. And so, we all have a role in our joint community of human beings to not be silent when we see something. I think the arts have given me more of that power. 01:20:40.000 --> 01:23:48.000 And of course, some of my experiences and my, the context of my background, some of the foundational things I learned as a kid give you, gave me— my mom went on to run for our local what was it, public authority, where you make decisions on like public housing and that kind of stuff. And I helped her campaign, and it was a really hard campaign because people used horrible anti-Semitic language, calling my mom a dirty Jew or this or that. Like out loud, right? And she ultimately lost her election. But then the governor, who was governor Michael Dukakis at the time, there was a opening on that same authority, and he appointed her. And I'll never forget, it's, even in that awful kind of context of what we experience, there was a upside. And there was some justice. But boy, all of that is a learning thing. It's people who are Jewish, people who are Muslim, people who are in minority groups aside from religions have to learn these lessons, sadly over and over. And yeah, it's not easy. On the other hand, there is a lot of power in understanding who you are and the camaraderie of others. In this particular moment, and this is again just saying, this is at this moment in happens with this interview, the weaponization of antisemitism or the cause of the Palestinian people is just horrible. And that's something that is, again, so important for people to understand the nuances. And not to use people against other people. I mean, human beings in Gaza who don't have food are not pawns of governments. They're human beings. People who are coming down on Jewish people, we are not pawns. There's good people, bad people, everything in between everywhere. We have to learn to work together and not to use people for other causes. I don't know. I'm a little bit on my high horse there, so (laughter). 01:23:48.000 --> 01:24:15.000 No, I agree and specifically with your, “We are not pawns.” We're human beings, and understanding humans with stories. So, thank you so much for sharing your story. I hope you're able to use this interview even just to share with your family. I'm sure they'd appreciate hearing all these stories to preserve them. 01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:25.000 Thanks. You know what, to bring it back around, I hadn't really thought about, but you're absolutely right. And what we did with, in the Soviet Union was bring out people's stories. 01:24:25.000 --> 01:24:29.000 Exactly. And just quickly, one last question. 01:24:29.000 --> 01:24:30.000 Yeah. 01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:43.000 The music and the code that you brought back, I'm assuming it was preserved, or their stories preserved, or like how does— because this interview will be preserved with Special Collections, so yeah, just curious. 01:24:43.000 --> 01:27:28.000 Yeah. So a couple of things. My, the code, we kept the code secret for almost thirty years. And it has come to light, and it came to light very serendipitously. I was at a dinner with someone I had never met, guy named Chuck Davis (runs the cybersecurity blog "Between the Hacks") and his wife, they were in cybersecurity. I had no idea about cybersecurity. He's telling me, “Oh, well cybersecurity, we do this, we keep this safe, blah, blah, blah.” And I said, “Well, it, this isn’t cybersecurity, but I've got a story.” And I told him the whole Soviet story, and he was like, “Oh my God.” And he immediately connected with people in cybersecurity. They have this ginormous conference once a year, and it's called RSA (RSA Security LLC, formed in 1982, is a computer and cybersecurity company that was named for co-founders Ron Rivest, Adi Shamir, and Leonard Adleman). And I don't remember what that stands for, but it's a cybersecurity conference. And I ended up being a keynote, and then I ended up becoming friends and doing a little work for the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency for the United States. Because the head of the, it's called CISA, at the time, her name is Jen Easterly, she obviously left when the government changed, she recognized also the power of the arts. And when you look, when you think about cybersecurity, at a very little level, it is, if you can distill it down, it's all about stopping very creative bad guys from doing very bad things. Well, how do you stop or get ahead of bad guys or gals doing bad things? You have to be more creative. You have to work well with each other. You have to think outside the box. And again, the arts give you those skills. That's, I've become very active in that world. But my music and my story has been on display at the NSA, National Security Agency, in (Wahington) DC at a cryptological museum. That's a national museum. It's at— on display in LA (Los Angeles) currently at Wende Museum, which is a Cold War museum. W-E-N-D-E, which is a fabulous museum in LA. And actually, in summer 2026, there'll be a book coming out on my Soviet experience co-authored with Vince Houghton, who is the director of the National Cryptological Museum for the NSA. So, we are co-authoring a book that will be published by HarperCollins (one of the largest English language publishing companies). So, yeah, pretty cool stuff. 01:27:28.000 --> 01:27:34.000 That's super exciting. Is it specifically based on your experience going to Moscow? Or— 01:27:34.000 --> 01:27:36.000 Yep. The whole Phantom Orchestra story. 01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:37.000 Okay. Right. 01:27:37.000 --> 01:27:59.000 And it includes background of what was going on at the time, which was how dangerous it actually was over there, because of the whole real spies. I mean, we were like little tiny spies, but not government seekers, nothing. But the real spies. It was the height of dangerous activity. 01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:12.000 Right. I consider you a spy, or like at least a story smuggler. Or something like that (Goldberg laughs and affirms) Because you were definitely—An espionage artist or something. 01:28:12.000 --> 01:28:14.000 Yeah. 01:28:14.000 --> 01:28:21.000 Yeah. Well, again, thank you so much for sharing your story. Yes, thank you. 01:28:21.000 --> 01:28:22.000 Well, thanks for having me. (overlapping dialogue) 01:28:22.000 --> 01:28:22.068 Of course. 01:28:22.068 --> 01:28:22.908 That was really great. 01:28:22.908 --> 01:28:23.908 Yeah, thanks. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. 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Goldberg, Merryl. Interview, April 9, 2025
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Dr. Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union.
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SC027-078
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California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES
California State University San Marcos. Music
California State University San Marcos. School of Arts
Klezmer Conservatory Band
Klezmer music
Smuggling -- Soviet Union
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2025-04-09
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Merryl Goldberg
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Aaron Williams
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Boston (Mass.)
San Marcos (Calif.)
Soviet Union
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English
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Activists and activism
Art and artists
CSUSM history
History Department internship
Jewish experience
Women's experience
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Madison Teater
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Max Disposti
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resource center
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Stonewall
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5.4 2022-04-26 Oral history of Max Disposti, April 26, 2022 SC027-14 00:54:20 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. LGBTQ+ activism LGBTQ+ rights North County LGBT Resource Center -- California -- Oceanside North County (San Diego County, Calif.) Rome (Italy) LGBT resource center nonprofit management leadership presence Stonewall Max Disposti MJ Teater m4a DispostiMax_MadisonTeater-2022-04-26.m4a 1:|21(7)|43(6)|53(15)|65(3)|75(4)|85(4)|101(11)|113(17)|124(11)|142(11)|153(5)|165(15)|177(13)|188(7)|205(7)|215(10)|227(2)|237(6)|247(10)|259(12)|272(1)|283(4)|293(11)|303(7)|321(3)|333(3)|344(14)|356(3)|367(14)|379(6)|393(13)|406(1)|417(11)|428(6)|439(1)|450(5)|467(10)|479(2)|489(2)|500(3)|514(7)|526(8)|537(11)|550(5)|568(9)|585(13)|597(4)|607(10)|624(5)|634(2)|645(8)|668(1)|681(2)|702(9) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/90bdb0d7c052243dc1d6c76100bad70a.m4a Other audio English 97 Growing up and education in Rome Sure. When I grew up in Rome, you know, I came from a family that was poor, but you know not too poor not to provide for me in terms of, you know, food and a good safe environment, you know healthcare and education in Italy and Europe are still free. Definitely having access to a higher education was not a challenge, at least not from the standpoint of view of affordability. I grew up in a very safe environment, even though, you know, we were struggling every month to make ends meet. I would say my childhood has been affected by the activism of both of my parents. I only have one siblings that's five years older than me also lives in Rome right now, my brother. And so throughout my life I was always exposed to diversity and others in Italy at the time. And still nowadays, there was a big migration from Africa and our country and Middle East or Eastern Europe. It depends on the time at the time, it was mostly from North Africa and my family was hosting people and greeting them and making sure that they were safe. I grew up in an environment where we always care about others, even though we had little for ourselves. Our table was always with more people and usually people from different cultures as well. My family exposed me to all of this, even though my own mom and my own dad didn't have any academic education, so to speak, they couldn't pursue a higher education, but also they were during the war at the time < ; affirmative> ; even going to high school was a privilege that just few wealthy families could afford. I consider myself lucky, of course, when I came out at the age of thirteen there's always that struggle of homophobia, transphobia in a city, in a country that's dominated by Catholic Church. Even though my parents were not religious whatsoever it infiltrates into the patriarchal narratives. When I came out as a gay man at the time it definitely was a surprise and an issue at first to a point I needed to detach from my family. They never pushed me outside so they were not against me but I needed my own space. I was thirteen, fourteen and I was already an activist in the community. But it was never a traumatic experience. I went through my time of self-affirmation and then I came back to them with more-- I knew I could conquer their hearts and mind around this because there were people I could talk to. I was definitely in a privileged position versus other friends of mine. They just end up on the street. < ; affirmative> ; . So that's my childhood. That's who I am. For me early on, on my sense of social justice, that activism around issues that they were not just LGBT related you know, human rights, immigration rights and against the war all the time. And at the time America, I was definitely not a place where I was aiming to live. It was this big monster imperialistic country that goes around to conquer spaces and lifestyles. We were not a fan of it, but love brought me to California and my first love, I would say serious enough to drag me there. And then one thing led to another, I end up staying in California. Again, though I overstay my visa. I became undocumented for about five, six years of my first time. I had to experience all of that fear because now I'm in love with someone. I didn't want to lose them. < ; affirmative> ; so that's a little bit my story, even though I always recognized my privilege to come from a place that was definitely not devastated by war and crime or violence. I still felt that I couldn't go back to it just because if I did at the time, I could never return to the U.S. I did my best and my education helped me to go through all the application process and so forth to become a citizen and live the best of both world[s] pretty much, back at home and here in California. So, yeah, I hope I didn't share too much. Max Disposti recounts his childhood and educational experiences in Rome, Italy. He also goes into detail about his parents and their education. Disposti explores the social climate in Rome during his childhood and starts connecting to different movements such as the LGBT, immigration, and human rights. activism ; affordability ; Catholic Church ; higher education ; LGBT ; Rome ; safe environment ; working class activism in Rome, Italy ; Childhood ; Education ; Family education ; Growing up in Rome, Italy 41.9028° N, 12.4964° E 17 Coordinates for Rome, Italy which is where Max Disposti was born and raised. 397 More on education / Early careers Disposti: When I was in Italy I was really driven by social studies since day one. But my high school years were troubled by a lot of strikes that I organized. I can’t even blame anybody, I was always striking for better schools, better conditions against discrimination. At the time being openly gay was a threat. It was a threat to myself. I think people never touched me or attacked me physically because I was so out that would have exposed them as well. Right. < ; affirmative> ; It was one of those I realized the more vocal out I was, the more protection I was bringing to myself because the people there to be that kinda person, especially in a religious country like that, there's always that fade. I mean, that face that you had to keep, you know, in order decency. High school was problematic. I did finish high school and then I went to the university, high school was just-- in Europe, you already pick in high school what you think you're gonna do in the future. It was graphic design related, a fashion design. Then I look around me, you're in Italy with amazing talented artists. And I look at me and say, “oh my gosh, I would never make it.” These people are just-- each one of them is an artist. I realize it wasn't really for me as well. I went into university and developed more social sociology and social studies. I graduated from-- I got my bachelor[s] over there, but didn't do much with it after a few years-- I mean when I was 30 years old, then I decided to move to the U.S. And here I started over my study and I took my bachelor[s] in political science. And then I went back to get a master [in] nonprofit management in leaderships, which I graduated from in 2016. Not really long ago. Recent, because it was a means for me, I didn't need the academic title. I really needed to know more about the work I was doing, particularly in nonprofit. I had to tell you it was money well invested, even though I'm still paying for it, < ; laugh> ; after so many years. And it really helped me to understand more about nonprofit governments and leadership as well. In addition to what I already knew. So yeah, that's my academic background pretty much. Max Disposti talks more about the education he received in Italy and then receiving his bachelors and masters in the United States. He further talks about his experience as an immigrant in America and undergoing the process to become a citizen. Meanwhile he was working different jobs and then touches on his goal to start an LGBT center. He leads into talking about the origins of the resource center. academic background ; bachelors ; LGBT center ; military ; nonprofit management ; Oceanside ; organized ; political science ; social sociology ; social studies ; strikes ; transplant Early jobs and career goals ; education in America and Italy ; Job opportunities in California ; Max Disposti's education and career background 33.1959° N, 117.3795° W 17 Oceanside, CA 843 The LGBT Experience in North County San Diego Disposti: It was not easy. I had to fight internally and externally, it was opening the door of the center in a military town. I knew it was going to be difficult because it was at the time all North County was extremely conservative. We received threat. We had our windows smashed several times. We elected people that didn't wanna meet us in person. This was obviously 2008 and 2009. Also 2008 was the year of the campaign for marriage equality. The center at this point was not open because we opened 2011, but we were active as a group. It was called North County LGBT coalition. So we were meeting weekly. We were an organizations with all we were grassroot at the same time. We had a board of directors. I mean we were an organization, but not yet with a space because we were saving money to open one. And yeah, North County was quite brutal, but also interesting enough because we were the only organized entity in North County, we received a lot of support and a lot of love from a lot of people from family and youth and so forth. We connected right away with preexisting grassroot groups in North County, in particular, with Link Lesbian in North County, there is a lot of history around what they've done here in North County for 20 years since women met under cover every Friday to create a support system for themselves, even the gay guys were cruising and the whole spots Oceanside had, the Marines were here. There was a lot of LGBT presence in Oceanside. We used to have two gay bars up to 2002, then they closed down just because the owners got old. But there was a lot of LGBT happening. It reminds me what it used to be in San Diego prior to the seventies when the Marines were there. And it became an LGBT Hillcrest [?] in particular place to go because there were a lot of Navy and Marines coming to town and finally they could be true to themself, right? Oceanside, North County was brewing with Marines that they were gay and Navy officers as well, but it was always-- the community was always in denial. Oceanside was a place where there were a lot of street workers, a lot of LGBT people, a lot of trans women, that had to, not by choice, in that case, to become strict workers because they didn't have opportunity for jobs. So quite a rough place, when we came in people couldn't believe that there [were] enough to put ourself out there and call ourself an LGBT center and having the rainbow flag outside. At first we had people just walking into the door. I remember the seniors in particular, literally were emotionally taken by the fact that we were just there. And at first I saw we're not doing anything special. We're just here with a flag outside, running some support groups, but we didn't realize at first the impact we're having soon, so many lives and people that came and dropped their life story on us, seniors and youth. And then all of a sudden we started seeing more and more, our amazing trans kiddos < ; laugh> ; . And that was when we started advocating within our own community with our old generation of gay male to the fact that this is the time for us to give back to those of us that are still struggling and understanding how, not only embrace our trans identities, not as a plus or a sign of solidarity, but as a full part of the community, that's always been there, but always been hidden, not by their choice. It was the constitutions of our mission statement at the center. We were fortunate enough that since day one, when no one was talking about trans rights, other than trans people, of course, by meaning the mainstream of the LGBT community. < ; affirmative> ; Our board was composed by trans folks, the support groups. We started hiring therapists, everybody was volunteering at the time to work with our folks. And we had hundreds, hundreds of kids coming at the center during a week basis. And we learned so much from them, their struggle, their pain, one of this kids became my son because he decided to adopt me. Now he's 22, so he's already grown up and he's a trans male, lives with his girlfriend now and everything else. But so it was a overall real experience. That was never a job for me, never just a job or never just a phase. Right. And I think at that time already, we realized that we needed to educate those old leaderships that they were popping up. And they were excited that we were there, but they started warning us. Hey, this place is becoming, you guys always only care about transcripts. It seems like, what about gay people? Or what about, I say, we don't exclude anyone, but now we need to be together to enhance the voices. So those that haven't been, that have been left out for so many years, because when I grew up in Rome at the age of thirteen, fourteen, I was always surrounded by trans people. They were my friends < ; affirmative> ; . When people tell me, “Oh, I dunno, what's going on now? All of a sudden, everybody is trans or whatever,” say, “no, it's always been like that.” We always been around. I say, we, even though I'm a cisgender gay guy, because I've been blessed to be educated through the experience for many years when I was thirteen, fourteen. For me to hear an older white male that tells me that I say “You haven't looked around too much. You have been focused on yourself for too long.” I would say that was a journey that allowed me to create a center with a culture and a vision where people, when they joined, they needed to know the old that were on board with the whole spectrum, LGTQI or that wasn't the place for them. And we lost some people in the process. We lost some donors, no regrets. We earned again so much more. And now that people are finally recollecting the necessity to bring home what we’ve started thirty, forty years ago, or fifty years ago with Stonewall to bring it back home with everyone, or just some of us, I think, now people are looking at us and say, “Oh wow, you guys were right. You were always there.” And yeah, we were, we are, and we will. And now we're embracing the intersex identities and struggle because again, they're being ask[ed] to be part of our community because many of them are, and that we've been advocating with them now at the children hospital in San Diego to change the horrible practices of mutilation of our organs just to feed the stereotypical expectations [of] what gender or sexes of birth is all about. We always been there in the forefront and when we weren't, we look into ourself to do better. You can imagine how the past three, four years with the Black Lives Matter Movement with adding colors to our flag, how not only we wanted to embrace, but realize that all our identities are not just one identity, right? That we had to be vocal of about the struggle that our own queer people in our own community BIPOC folks are still enduring because of police brutality, institutional violence, and a way to do nonprofits has been whitewashed for many years. And how white supremacists in filtered into our own community. How it shows up? Recognizing how to do that and making yourself vulnerable to it and not defensive on when you might be perpetuating those dynamics. I think it's part of everyday challenges is what I love the most to be honest, because I don't wanna come to a point where I say, “Oh, I think I know everything, and now I got all of my boxes checked.” Nothing else comes through when it's not true. Life is always moving. Right. And so are we, so, yeah. That's how difficult it was in North County, but I focus on the positive, but we lost some kids in the process in 2014 and by loss, I mean, Taylor, Alisana[?], Sage, and Tyler took their own life. There were transcripts that made national news and there were three of them served by our center. And still troubling for me to talk about it. But I always try to honor their lives because they didn't go in pain, even though I wish they were here. But they taught us a bigger lesson. We believed our kids when they were telling us they were struggling to a point they didn't wanna live anymore. There wasn't just a face or a way to drag attention to themselves. It was a real struggle of pain. Some of us didn't have the privilege. Some of us had the privilege not to experience, by being cisgender. We learn a lot in that process. Sorry. < ; laugh> ; Max Disposti talks about the LGBT community in North County San Diego. Specifically areas of Oceanside where there were communities that thrived. Disposti also talks about different groups within the community and where they hung out. He begins to touch on why it was important to him to start the North County Resource Center. community ; gay ; grassroot ; lesbians ; LGBT ; LGBTQI ; Link ; marines ; military ; North County ; Oceanside ; organized ; presence ; San Diego ; support ; trans ; transgender ; youth LGBT in the military ; North County ; The LGBT community in North County 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego 1471 Resources at the North County Resource Center / How the center has changed over time Disposti: Yeah. You know we started in a way at the beginning, really. We didn't have need assessment. We didn't know really how to do any of it eleven years ago. We just said, “Hey, if more than three people come forward and tell us, can we have a super group? For seniors, for non-binary folks, for trans folks?” they say that means it's needed. So, we'll find a facilitator and create guidelines. We were always very serious around policies and procedures and guidelines and protecting ourselves and others in the process. So, we're never easy about that. The opposite. I think that so many times, because while we were a grassroot organization, we knew exactly the level of liability we could incur by just gathering people. You know, there were people [who] were coming because they were stalking other people, right. They were. So how do we protect folks without introducing our own biases in the conversation? We created a support group model that responded to the need of the community. Definitely our trans and non-binary groups was the most populated resources. I mean, sometimes we have 40 people in one room cramped in there because it was the only big room. And I say, “Oh my God the fire department show[ed] up, now they're gonna shut us down.” Because it was a small space at the time. So super groups, then we started doing behavioral health and in the way we wanted to see happening for our people. So, things have changed and housing, case working-- I would say [in] two years we became more experienced. We know how to navigate the system and cut the BS about advocating for people and how to do it well. Creating more safety for our community. So sometimes we're like, for instance, human trafficking is a real, real problem in our community. And we notice that a lot of LGBT centers and churches and sport clubs were place[s] where people are going to groom. And sometimes these people are just a year or two years older than the kid that you're serving. You have to be careful to provide a safe space where you're not there to over micromanage people and their own identity, their own sexuality, their own affirmation are the same, but at the same time, provide a space where people can come to you and tell you, “Hey, I'm an active fifteen year old person, I’m sexually active with this person. Maybe they're at my age or a year older.” How do we go about-- how can I be safe? And things like that. Our youth were coming to us opening their hearts because they knew we weren’t there to judge them. We learned all of that, how to be safe, right? If I have a teenager or thirteen [years old] [who] tells me that they were having a relationship, a sexual relationship with someone at twenty-two, we have major red flags. And we’re also mandated a reporter, right. We've done that too in the past. Navigating through all of that was quite interesting. And we learned how to do it. Now we know so much that we are the one training others youth providers around or the police, when the police shows up because someone called them because maybe they're dynamic of stress. We tell the police what to do and how to approach other people. If they don't agree with that, we don't let them in. This is not place for additional violence and trauma. We educated a lot of these institutions that have been the cause of a lot trauma for our community. We work with them when we can, and we do training and we sit on the same table so that we can advocate and build the trust too. But at the same time, we make it clear that as a service, a clinical provider, this is not a space where they're invited. We need to find other way, how to collaborate and do prevention in a community, without having them finding the queer spaces in San Diego County. < ; affirmative> ; That's one of the things. Things have changed. And then COVID of course, we moved everything virtually. I have to say, now that we came back, they were coming back in person. We never closed the center. We always been open throughout the pandemic. We just couldn't afford to close. We receive a lot of support from foundations and founders. They realize that we made everything possible to support people. I would say what has changed and now we have support groups, but people prefer the one-on-one because they can't find socialization quite easily nowadays in different spaces, even virtually, but they like the one-on-one, “Hey, help me go through this,” family reification or mental health crisis, or finding a job, or just supporting their ego and the self-esteem. It looks like they will be more successful to do that one by one, instead of putting everyone in a super group, which we do have some people just love that, but they're usually mostly social, like let's come together for an all queer and non-binary or let's come together. And because those spaces are very vital, important. We are not denying that. I would say though, that we are seeing more progress by doing that different kind of intervention. So maybe we're creating a hybrid, whatever the community needs. We'll have to respond to that. Max Disposti explains the services offered at the North County Resource Center. Disposti discusses how the center has changed and became more educated and aware of the needs of those within the community. assessment ; beginning ; church ; community ; family reification ; guidelines ; hybrid ; LGBT ; LGBT centers ; mental health crisis ; procedures ; resources ; safe ; self-esteem ; successful ; trauma ; violence Mental health services ; North County Resource Center ; Support groups ; Support offered at the North County Resource Center 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego 1802 Challenges and opportunities of the North County Resource Center I would say challenges, but also opportunities. < ; affirmative> ; I do believe that LGBT centers are the Planned Parenthood of United States. And what I mean is we are vital spaces and resources for our queer community that no other institutions will ever provide. And preserving, not only preserving, but supporting those spaces. I think it's a commitment to the government, state, federal, county will have to commit to, because as we know, as it's happening, if you take away resources from a Planned Parenthood, that's why the comparison, I mean, half of the population of women in particular, but not just women will not have access to reproductive rights, a fundamental human rights. And if they're left to the single communities, and this is a conversation I have with our elected official Mike Levin, people that they're being very willing to understand. I said, I realized during COVID that if it wasn't < ; affirmative> ; for the private donors and support people with money that stepped in, we would not be open nowadays. And < ; affirmative> ; the government, you have [to] allow us to close our resources. And now it's eleven years old that has helped thousands of people. And now employs twelve people. And that's just not fair. This is not just a volunteer experience, this is the livelihood, but also the safe space for thousands of people. And that's true in many region[s], right? For the San Diego Center, so forth. < ; affirmative> ; While it's good for us to build our own funding streams so that you can stay independent. You don't want the government to give you everything for everything you do, because then they want to have a say about how you run your business. But definitely it's important that, especially in California, where supposedly we have a more progressive leadership to start supporting LGBT center so they can provide vital care, healthcare services, the others don't provide. [Be]cause when people get sexually assaulted that are queer, they don't go to the police station. They come to us when they are in a mental health crisis given by different reasons. They come to us first, when they're in poverty, they come to us when experiencing certain kind of relationships or a tougher life or because of drugs or substance abuse, they come to us because they know we're not here to judge. I would say that's why we’re the planned parenthood of the community < ; affirmative> ; [be]cause it's an essential vital resource. The challenges are that we're not there yet, so that we are left alone to do this work. And now that we have experienced and seen the highest record of anti-LGBT legislation passing in Congress, a passing or proposed in different states and in Congress, this conversation, as you know, they hit home, our kids, even though they're in California. And we know that we're a little bit more protected here. We still have people at the school district level showing up and addressing and stigmatizing and penalizing our queerness. We still have people in position of power taking advantage of those narratives and bring back the same old recycled anti-LGBT religious based narratives. The trauma continues every time we hear that, even though it's not here geographically speaking. That's the challenges that in a time where communication goes past left and right, that sometimes even news needs to be vetted. The trauma that the previous administration has caused, we're still dealing with it. Or the Trump administration for those in the record that might watch this years to come, or even now with all the anti-LGBT bills from Florida in Texas, in Ohio, South Dakota, I mean, these are thousands, hundreds of thousands LGBT youth in particular trans youth. They are denied their own assistance. And in 2022 I was hoping not to see that again, instead we are (inaudible) < ; affirmative> ; I have hope, I think we have a lot of things going our favor, including a history of resilience, but it's tough. It's tough for a lot of people. < ; affirmative> ; (Unintelligible) will fight because it's value our own existence, but for a lot of people don't have the means the energy < ; affirmative> ; and we will have to fight for them too. < ; affirmative> ; I see a lot of challenges. They are not just political or cultural, or educational and people really go around spreading a lot of misinformation around the (unintelligible) kids, supposedly getting surgery at the age of eight, which is total bullshit < ; affirmative> ; when it's actually through the opposite. I think that's the challenge of nowadays, they still go and the racism, the institutionalized violence that it's part of the North American culture unfortunately. I think we are an extremely violent culture. < ; affirmative> ; I can say that because coming from another-- when a different kind of violence from the European experience in Italy in particular, I can say though, that a lot of people that are born and raised here don't even realize the, the level of competitive individualism that's being created here in North America to a point that now we have a national pandemic and a worldwide pandemic, and people are even struggling to care for their own neighbors by protecting their self and other, right. < ; affirmative> ; I'm really concerned about those dynamics of violence and isolation, individualism that our society has brought us to be < ; affirmative> ; That goes along with building an LGBT center. Max Disposti analyzes the challenged and opportunities that come from running an LGBT resource center relating instances of both to the current political climate in the United States. He includes his experience in Italy compared to America in which things are handled differently, including the COVID-19 pandemic. commitment ; COVID ; institutionalized violence ; LGBT ; Planned Parenthood ; queer community ; trauma The challenges of running an LGBT resource center ; The opportunities of running an LGBT resource center 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego 2191 LGBT police and sheriff training in San Diego / comparing local police training in Italy Disposti: I'm gonna say that really, even though I train the Escondido police, the Oceanside police, Carlsbad Sheriff Department, we do training with FBI. I met amazing people in those spaces. I mean, here and there < ; affirmative> ; I don't wanna generalize. [Be]cause I met folks with coming from, they shouldn't be there in my opinion. I don't have any trust that the police or any law enforcement will ever, ever represent the interest of those that are working and living. And those of us that are really struggling for a better tomorrow, I mean law enforcement is there to preserve the status quo and we don't like the status quo < ; affirmative> ; of course we like democracy and all of that, but I don't have any confidence in that. You know what I say that to even the officer I train, I tell them I don't dehumanize you because I think people [that] are there are human beings and making their own decisions. Their own sacrifices with their family and many of them risk their life, < ; affirmative> ; for something that [they’re] living. I'm not here to dehumanize individuals and call them and isolate them. I have a lot of relationships with police in the relations to, in a very transparent way, there are not. For instance, we have meetings that we sit at the table I'm always very clear about: I don't think that policing belongs to queer spaces. I don't think that policing, and even though I know that police gets, especially LGBT law enforcement feel like betrayed by the fact that “I'm a police LGBT officer, I [want to] be in this space because I earn it.” But the problem that they can't forget or separate themselves from the uniform they're wearing and what has represented for our, it's still percent for our queer and people of color in North American particular. Any region is different, but-- < ; affirmative> ; . What I would say is I believe that training reduce the impact of policing in our community. I believe that building relationships can build trust. That something happens. I can go to the police advocate for my people, and I want answers and vice versa, I think will help the police to understand why there is fear in our community of reporting to the police. Because when you have been called faggot by a police officer, when nobody is watching, it's your word against theirs. So that happens a lot of time < ; affirmative> ; on watch. But then there is no way we can prove it. That happens everywhere all the time. And so personally speaking, and this is, I wouldn't say it's a statement to my organization, even though I would say it's a common vision. I think collaborations with police, it's important to, in terms of creating relationships, reducing the impact of policing in our community. But I think the institution of policing is to be completely reinvented from zero. If we wanted to be the force that serves the community, it doesn't protect status quo. I know some people might say radical views, but I met police in different countries, just in North America and they were never on our side. Teater: Yeah. How does local policing here compare to in Italy per se or places in Europe? [Be]cause I'm not too familiar with their policing practices. Disposti: America is anomaly. The whole integration of LGBT experiences into the normalcy of the everyday life has a good outcome, but also has developed contradictions. The fact that the police needs to show up in our places and parade with us as a-- in North American seen as a progress, when in Italy it’[s] like, “Okay, we don't need to hate each other, but my job is policing. It's not to lead the LGBT movements into pro-policing know against policing.” Right? It's a different experience with police when I was, even though it was a different time policing in our LGBT experience in Italy was always a (unintelligible) < ; affirmative> ; . There were never-- nobody will ever think that we need policing in our streets with us. It's a different comparison. Of course, I don't live in Italy now, even though I go back every year and my family's there and they're still active. I definitely have a sense of what's going on, but < ; affirmative> ; , it's just a different thing. People look at us and say, why you need the whole military marching with you, why you need the whole-- and I understand the sense of the fact that LGBT people are everywhere. We [want to] show the normalcy, that being queer is not anything that's out there, but you know, you can be a police officer queer, a doctor, and I do like that. I do marry the cost that every price should be open to everyone that marches. But we got in a point here in Northern America, where now police is telling us how they [want to] show up. They are in San Diego in particular, they are dictating almost the way they should be representing themselves when maybe they have only three, four LGBT police officer. And they're using them as a token to show that the whole force is pro-LGBT. Then they run surveys through the UCSD [University of California San Diego] or through the service for the Sheriff department that you realize how much homophobic and transphobic and racist the force still is. To me, they haven't earned that spot. I'm just gonna be frank. And I told this to chief of police from Oceanside to San Diego to Chula Vista. I tell that in a very not threatening way, they trust me actually. And they like to talk to me because I'm truthful. I don't beat the bush around. I'm just gonna tell I'm gonna work with you and everything else. But I think you were invited at the table and now you think you own the table and that's okay with me, but the police has an incredible force in America. The lobby of policing, the elected officials get money from policing < ; affirmative> ; San Diego Police Departments extremely powerful, and they impose their will on, or social organizations and organizing. < ; affirmative> ; To ask, for instance, going back in the merit, I will have been happy to see the police marching maybe with their own t-shirts and shorts, you know, so that you can tell everybody you are the San Diego Police Department. And so that your department can be proud of you. And I think that should be alright. But the whole presence of uniform and weapons in a inclusive parade is meant to be inclusive of everyone. Includes those that are now super patriotic, or nationalistic, nationalist and so forth. I think it's very not conducive of a good relationship. It's just a parade. < ; affirmative> ; I don't feel it's very-- so I'm sorry if I took you a little bit off, but this is-- Max Disposti recounts his experience training police in North County. Disposti also shares his thoughts on police in queer spaces. Further he talks about what policing looks like in Italy for the LGBT and BIPOC communities. fear ; inclusive ; LGBT ; policing ; queer spaces LGBT police trainings ; local police ; Police and LGBT interations ; Police in Italy 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego 2929 The North County Resource Center eleven years later / Joy as an activist Teater < ; affirmative> ; I love that. I have a couple more questions. I'm [going to] switch gears a little bit. What does it mean to you that the resource center has been open for eleven years now? Disposti: < ; laugh> ; It means a lot. I can't believe it. And I don't look back too many times, when I do I get emotional. We had our first staff meeting after a while. I mean, in person and in the past six months alone, we hire[d] six people. So now we're[employees] twelve. < ; affirmative> ; And just look around the table with beautiful queer diversity around us, people with incredible (unintelligible). And I just couldn't even envision this years ago, I knew it was coming, but now seeing these people around me, each one of them gives so much, it brings so much to the center. I get really emotional, but I tend to look ahead of me in terms of, there's so much we [want to] do. Just to give you an idea, this center is really small. Now we really need that center is four or five times bigger, so we can grow and serve really serve North County. I don't feel, we are able to say we are the North County LGBT center because we serve everyone, but truly serving everyone from Escondido to--, it’s just not, at this moment, practically possible. It takes resources. < ; affirmative> ; Not just volunteers and time and resources and money. I can't imagine a queer person in Escondido, in order to be served they have to come to Oceanside. That alone is a barrier. We encourage, even though we like to serve the whole region, that there are new experiences that we can support them and share with them what we did so they can learn it. We're not in competition with other spaces growing and coming up, but it's not an easy thing to do. I would say I'm proud of what we did, of what we accomplished, but before I finish with the center experience, whenever that is, I [want to] see a huge building, thriving with a lot of people in it. And mostly with a lot of brand-new leaderships that can take that, toward and moving forward. That would make me happy in so many different ways. So, yeah. Teater: Oh, that's so nice. During your time as an activist, and this'll be my final question, during your time as an activist, what has brought you the most joy? Disposti: Oh gosh. I don't think I can single out one. Teater: What were some of the experiences? Disposti: Opening the center, the grand opening of the center. Definitely. People showed up for that dream. Really so many, I've been so fortunate to have so many memories, but definitely the opening the center. The meeting that we had two weeks ago, I told you looking around and see, oh my gosh, these are my people and the staff, and the center is growing. The people coming forward after a few years of months that visit us, and we help them and thanking us for truly-- And when I say save the life, I don't mean in such a-- these were people struggling with their own existence. When I say save the life, I mean, it physically not--I mean, taught them the way. Right. I don't [want to] be so pretentious of presumptions or, we are not telling people what to do, but many people really couldn't survive without our support that has to do with mostly believing in them. When stories like that are coming back to you, you know, you're on the right path, are doing the right work. So many, I can't pin it down, but mostly had to do with my community being there for my community and here at the center. So-- Teater: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing with me. Is there anything else you wanted to mention before we sign off? Disposti: No, it's hard to recollect now, but I'm sorry for getting through the emotions. Teater: Oh no, I love it all. It's perfect. Disposti: You know, me? Yeah. I don't shy away from that. No, thank you. Thank you for doing this work. That's what I [want to] say that I know how important it's because we're doing an archive here at the center as well, and we are doing the same interviews to the people that were here, the key leaders in the communities, even prior to the opening of the center, it's a very tedious, slow process that takes years in the making. I appreciate you and your team for even thinking about this. And for creating this record that one day will be so helpful for people, or maybe not for people to watch. And I wish I had that when I started the center, looking back to the stories and the voices of those that came before us, because we always stand on the shoulder. Those that came became before us, even though there was not an LGBT center, but, you know, yeah. That's what we got. Thank you. Thank you. Max Disposti reflects on his time at the resource center and the important contributions it has made to North County. Disposti recounts the grand opening of the resource center as a highlight of his time as an activist. barrier ; encourage ; LGBT ; North County ; queer diversity Accomplishments ; Activism ; Growing and serving North County ; LGBT advocate ; Reflecting on the resource center 33.1222° N, 117.2911° W 17 North County, San Diego Oral history Max Disposti is the founder and Executive Director of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. In this interview, Max discusses his upbringing in Rome, Italy as a queer male and his experience coming to the U.S. and his quest to open the Resource Center. Max Disposti also talks about the parallels in how the LGBTQ+ community is treated in Italy in comparison to America. MJ Teater: Hello. My name is MJ Teeter. Today is Tuesday, April 26th, 2022, and it is 3:00 PM. I' ; m here with Max Disposti. Thank you for joining me, Max. How are you today? Max Disposti: I' ; m honored to be here. Absolutely good. It' ; s a beautiful day out there. Even though I haven' ; t been able to go and see the light < ; laugh> ; < ; affirmative> ; I mean, at the center working, but we' ; re all very excited. Yes. Teater: Yeah. Great. For the recording, can you introduce yourself what your name is? Your pronouns, when you were born, and what you do for work? Disposti: Okay. My name is Max Disposti, pronouns he/him. I' ; m a cisgender gay male and I was born in Rome in 1968, long time ago. And I am the executive director and founder of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. Teater: Awesome. And what did your parents do for work? Disposti: Oh, my parents now are retired because they' ; re 85 years old. They' ; re still alive and they live in Rome, Italy, but they were both working class individuals, actually my mom stayed at home even though she was an activist all her life, very active feminist in the city of Rome and my father as well. Teater: Well, that' ; s awesome. < ; affirmative> ; Can you tell me about, maybe a little bit about your childhood and some of your educational experience? Disposti: Sure. When I grew up in Rome, you know, I came from a family that was poor, but you know not too poor not to provide for me in terms of, you know, food and a good safe environment, you know healthcare and education in Italy and Europe are still free. Definitely having access to a higher education was not a challenge, at least not from the standpoint of view of affordability. I grew up in a very safe environment, even though, you know, we were struggling every month to make ends meet. I would say my childhood has been affected by the activism of both of my parents. I only have one siblings that' ; s five years older than me also lives in Rome right now, my brother. And so throughout my life I was always exposed to diversity and others in Italy at the time. And still nowadays, there was a big migration from Africa and our country and Middle East or Eastern Europe. It depends on the time at the time, it was mostly from North Africa and my family was hosting people and greeting them and making sure that they were safe. I grew up in an environment where we always care about others, even though we had little for ourselves. Our table was always with more people and usually people from different cultures as well. My family exposed me to all of this, even though my own mom and my own dad didn' ; t have any academic education, so to speak, they couldn' ; t pursue a higher education, but also they were during the war at the time < ; affirmative> ; even going to high school was a privilege that just few wealthy families could afford. I consider myself lucky, of course, when I came out at the age of thirteen there' ; s always that struggle of homophobia, transphobia in a city, in a country that' ; s dominated by Catholic Church. Even though my parents were not religious whatsoever it infiltrates into the patriarchal narratives. When I came out as a gay man at the time it definitely was a surprise and an issue at first to a point I needed to detach from my family. They never pushed me outside so they were not against me but I needed my own space. I was thirteen, fourteen and I was already an activist in the community. But it was never a traumatic experience. I went through my time of self-affirmation and then I came back to them with more-- I knew I could conquer their hearts and mind around this because there were people I could talk to. I was definitely in a privileged position versus other friends of mine. They just end up on the street. < ; affirmative> ; . So that' ; s my childhood. That' ; s who I am. For me early on, on my sense of social justice, that activism around issues that they were not just LGBT related you know, human rights, immigration rights and against the war all the time. And at the time America, I was definitely not a place where I was aiming to live. It was this big monster imperialistic country that goes around to conquer spaces and lifestyles. We were not a fan of it, but love brought me to California and my first love, I would say serious enough to drag me there. And then one thing led to another, I end up staying in California. Again, though I overstay my visa. I became undocumented for about five, six years of my first time. I had to experience all of that fear because now I' ; m in love with someone. I didn' ; t want to lose them. < ; affirmative> ; so that' ; s a little bit my story, even though I always recognized my privilege to come from a place that was definitely not devastated by war and crime or violence. I still felt that I couldn' ; t go back to it just because if I did at the time, I could never return to the U.S. I did my best and my education helped me to go through all the application process and so forth to become a citizen and live the best of both world[s] pretty much, back at home and here in California. So, yeah, I hope I didn' ; t share too much. Teater: No, that' ; s great. I love this. Can you tell me a bit more about your education? What did you study? Disposti: When I was in Italy I was really driven by social studies since day one. But my high school years were troubled by a lot of strikes that I organized. I can' ; t even blame anybody, I was always striking for better schools, better conditions against discrimination. At the time being openly gay was a threat. It was a threat to myself. I think people never touched me or attacked me physically because I was so out that would have exposed them as well. Right. < ; affirmative> ; It was one of those I realized the more vocal out I was, the more protection I was bringing to myself because the people there to be that kinda person, especially in a religious country like that, there' ; s always that fade. I mean, that face that you had to keep, you know, in order decency. High school was problematic. I did finish high school and then I went to the university, high school was just-- in Europe, you already pick in high school what you think you' ; re gonna do in the future. It was graphic design related, a fashion design. Then I look around me, you' ; re in Italy with amazing talented artists. And I look at me and say, " ; oh my gosh, I would never make it." ; These people are just-- each one of them is an artist. I realize it wasn' ; t really for me as well. I went into university and developed more social sociology and social studies. I graduated from-- I got my bachelor[s] over there, but didn' ; t do much with it after a few years-- I mean when I was 30 years old, then I decided to move to the U.S. And here I started over my study and I took my bachelor[s] in political science. And then I went back to get a master [in] nonprofit management in leaderships, which I graduated from in 2016. Not really long ago. Recent, because it was a means for me, I didn' ; t need the academic title. I really needed to know more about the work I was doing, particularly in nonprofit. I had to tell you it was money well invested, even though I' ; m still paying for it, < ; laugh> ; after so many years. And it really helped me to understand more about nonprofit governments and leadership as well. In addition to what I already knew. So yeah, that' ; s my academic background pretty much. Teater: Man, you' ; ve lived such a fascinating life. < ; laugh> ; So you touched on it a little bit, but what was your career like before the North County Resource Center? Disposti: The north county resource center, I would say around 2007 or 2008 is when I made that decision to do what I do, even though at first was not a paid position. I needed to save as much as I could, reserve anything, because I didn' ; t know where this was going to take me. < ; affirmative> ; . Prior to that, when I came in the U.S. even though I was very active and volunteering for different things, I was fortunate enough-- at the beginning I was working in hotel, the hotel industry, I used to be in San Francisco for four years. Then it was a little bit of dot com, I was doing a lot of translating because I speak Spanish and Italian. I was doing a lot of translating from one and to another with platforms, Yahoo platform and so forth. That was a very well-paid job. < ; affirmative> ; Even at the time that helped me out a little bit uplift my resources, but I wasn' ; t documented at the time. I couldn' ; t really invest into school or nothing because I knew I just couldn' ; t do that to that point. And so I married my previous husband at the time in San Francisco, we decided to come down here because he had family members in the military. And when we moved to Oceanside was the place where it was cheaper and affordable. I did like the beach. I liked the fact it was Southern California. I bought at first into the life okay. Once I finish with my own immigration status, which lasted 10 years struggle. So that' ; s why I' ; m very, not only sympathetic, but not many people understand about what it means to be an immigrant in this place where I had at that point, the money and the lawyers to fight the system and an education, but if it was running away from any other country from famine, war, or violence, there is no way that the U.S. will have offered me an alternative there is just no one, legally speaking. There is not an alternative if you become undocumented to fix your record, really not even if you marry someone. It' ; s just not the way it is anymore. It took me 10 years. Yes. I feel privileged because I was able to go through all of that. In the process, I started working to make some money because my dream was always to open a community center. < ; affirmative> ; And as I was making the money, I joined some real estate firms. I was a broker and I became very successful because I was this guy that was very realistic. I didn' ; t have dreams of screwing people over to make money. My dream was building LGBT center. I think people saw that in me, that was honest that sometimes I told people, don' ; t buy this house because really too big for you, is not gonna be a good choice, because then you' ; re gonna have this huge mortgage. I was having this conversation with folks, and I think the more I was honest with them, the more business was coming to me. I was doing really well at a certain point, I needed to make the decision to pull the plug and go into unemployment. Mind you I didn' ; t say thousands of thousands of dollars, just enough to go by that unemployment lasted. I mean, I was unemployed for two years because the center couldn' ; t pay me. I mean, it was me < ; affirmative> ; and starting a center I needed full-time dedications on everything from gathering resources, putting people together, dynamics of power that you encounter, opening the door and having someone there eight hours a day, it was a huge, huge undertaking. But I never felt alone. I always felt fortunate that people trusted me in the process. And also my leadership style has always been very sharing. The resources was never about me, my name and putting my name in top of the things I did, even though at the beginning, it shows a lot me and the center. My name is very linked to it, but mostly I started the center, but I always bring the honor, the credit to the many people, many, many people that made the center what it is today. So that' ; s how it brought to me. I brought those corporate leaderships into this business. I brought my nonprofit academic research. I brought my life experience as an activist. And I think everything just worked together. I was there for the right reason and not to rush things through. And I just had hope in my community here that things will have become like they are today or even more. Yeah, the dream' ; s still on and we still have a lot of things we want to accomplish. < ; affirmative> ; Teater: In terms of the LGBT community, what was that like in North County? Because I know North County doesn' ; t really have much of a presence as far as LGBT representation, as much as say Downtown or Hillcrest has. Disposti: < ; affirmative> ; It was not easy. I had to fight internally and externally, it was opening the door of the center in a military town. I knew it was going to be difficult because it was at the time all North County was extremely conservative. We received threat. We had our windows smashed several times. We elected people that didn' ; t wanna meet us in person. This was obviously 2008 and 2009. Also 2008 was the year of the campaign for marriage equality. The center at this point was not open because we opened 2011, but we were active as a group. It was called North County LGBT coalition. So we were meeting weekly. We were an organizations with all we were grassroot at the same time. We had a board of directors. I mean we were an organization, but not yet with a space because we were saving money to open one. And yeah, North County was quite brutal, but also interesting enough because we were the only organized entity in North County, we received a lot of support and a lot of love from a lot of people from family and youth and so forth. We connected right away with preexisting grassroot groups in North County, in particular, with Link Lesbian in North County, there is a lot of history around what they' ; ve done here in North County for 20 years since women met under cover every Friday to create a support system for themselves, even the gay guys were cruising and the whole spots Oceanside had, the Marines were here. There was a lot of LGBT presence in Oceanside. We used to have two gay bars up to 2002, then they closed down just because the owners got old. But there was a lot of LGBT happening. It reminds me what it used to be in San Diego prior to the seventies when the Marines were there. And it became an LGBT Hillcrest [?] in particular place to go because there were a lot of Navy and Marines coming to town and finally they could be true to themself, right? Oceanside, North County was brewing with Marines that they were gay and Navy officers as well, but it was always-- the community was always in denial. Oceanside was a place where there were a lot of street workers, a lot of LGBT people, a lot of trans women, that had to, not by choice, in that case, to become strict workers because they didn' ; t have opportunity for jobs. So quite a rough place, when we came in people couldn' ; t believe that there [were] enough to put ourself out there and call ourself an LGBT center and having the rainbow flag outside. At first we had people just walking into the door. I remember the seniors in particular, literally were emotionally taken by the fact that we were just there. And at first I saw we' ; re not doing anything special. We' ; re just here with a flag outside, running some support groups, but we didn' ; t realize at first the impact we' ; re having soon, so many lives and people that came and dropped their life story on us, seniors and youth. And then all of a sudden we started seeing more and more, our amazing trans kiddos < ; laugh> ; . And that was when we started advocating within our own community with our old generation of gay male to the fact that this is the time for us to give back to those of us that are still struggling and understanding how, not only embrace our trans identities, not as a plus or a sign of solidarity, but as a full part of the community, that' ; s always been there, but always been hidden, not by their choice. It was the constitutions of our mission statement at the center. We were fortunate enough that since day one, when no one was talking about trans rights, other than trans people, of course, by meaning the mainstream of the LGBT community. < ; affirmative> ; Our board was composed by trans folks, the support groups. We started hiring therapists, everybody was volunteering at the time to work with our folks. And we had hundreds, hundreds of kids coming at the center during a week basis. And we learned so much from them, their struggle, their pain, one of this kids became my son because he decided to adopt me. Now he' ; s 22, so he' ; s already grown up and he' ; s a trans male, lives with his girlfriend now and everything else. But so it was a overall real experience. That was never a job for me, never just a job or never just a phase. Right. And I think at that time already, we realized that we needed to educate those old leaderships that they were popping up. And they were excited that we were there, but they started warning us. Hey, this place is becoming, you guys always only care about transcripts. It seems like, what about gay people? Or what about, I say, we don' ; t exclude anyone, but now we need to be together to enhance the voices. So those that haven' ; t been, that have been left out for so many years, because when I grew up in Rome at the age of thirteen, fourteen, I was always surrounded by trans people. They were my friends < ; affirmative> ; . When people tell me, " ; Oh, I dunno, what' ; s going on now? All of a sudden, everybody is trans or whatever," ; say, " ; no, it' ; s always been like that." ; We always been around. I say, we, even though I' ; m a cisgender gay guy, because I' ; ve been blessed to be educated through the experience for many years when I was thirteen, fourteen. For me to hear an older white male that tells me that I say " ; You haven' ; t looked around too much. You have been focused on yourself for too long." ; I would say that was a journey that allowed me to create a center with a culture and a vision where people, when they joined, they needed to know the old that were on board with the whole spectrum, LGTQI or that wasn' ; t the place for them. And we lost some people in the process. We lost some donors, no regrets. We earned again so much more. And now that people are finally recollecting the necessity to bring home what we' ; ve started thirty, forty years ago, or fifty years ago with Stonewall to bring it back home with everyone, or just some of us, I think, now people are looking at us and say, " ; Oh wow, you guys were right. You were always there." ; And yeah, we were, we are, and we will. And now we' ; re embracing the intersex identities and struggle because again, they' ; re being ask[ed] to be part of our community because many of them are, and that we' ; ve been advocating with them now at the children hospital in San Diego to change the horrible practices of mutilation of our organs just to feed the stereotypical expectations [of] what gender or sexes of birth is all about. We always been there in the forefront and when we weren' ; t, we look into ourself to do better. You can imagine how the past three, four years with the Black Lives Matter Movement with adding colors to our flag, how not only we wanted to embrace, but realize that all our identities are not just one identity, right? That we had to be vocal of about the struggle that our own queer people in our own community BIPOC folks are still enduring because of police brutality, institutional violence, and a way to do nonprofits has been whitewashed for many years. And how white supremacists in filtered into our own community. How it shows up? Recognizing how to do that and making yourself vulnerable to it and not defensive on when you might be perpetuating those dynamics. I think it' ; s part of everyday challenges is what I love the most to be honest, because I don' ; t wanna come to a point where I say, " ; Oh, I think I know everything, and now I got all of my boxes checked." ; Nothing else comes through when it' ; s not true. Life is always moving. Right. And so are we, so, yeah. That' ; s how difficult it was in North County, but I focus on the positive, but we lost some kids in the process in 2014 and by loss, I mean, Taylor, Alisana[?], Sage, and Tyler took their own life. There were transcripts that made national news and there were three of them served by our center. And still troubling for me to talk about it. But I always try to honor their lives because they didn' ; t go in pain, even though I wish they were here. But they taught us a bigger lesson. We believed our kids when they were telling us they were struggling to a point they didn' ; t wanna live anymore. There wasn' ; t just a face or a way to drag attention to themselves. It was a real struggle of pain. Some of us didn' ; t have the privilege. Some of us had the privilege not to experience, by being cisgender. We learn a lot in that process. Sorry. < ; laugh> ; Teater: No, it' ; s okay. I appreciate you sharing with me. I' ; ll shift to maybe a lighter subject < ; laugh> ; for a quick second. What are some of the resources and services that are offered at the North County Resource Center and how have they changed over time? Disposti: Yeah. You know we started in a way at the beginning, really. We didn' ; t have need assessment. We didn' ; t know really how to do any of it eleven years ago. We just said, " ; Hey, if more than three people come forward and tell us, can we have a super group? For seniors, for non-binary folks, for trans folks?" ; they say that means it' ; s needed. So, we' ; ll find a facilitator and create guidelines. We were always very serious around policies and procedures and guidelines and protecting ourselves and others in the process. So, we' ; re never easy about that. The opposite. I think that so many times, because while we were a grassroot organization, we knew exactly the level of liability we could incur by just gathering people. You know, there were people [who] were coming because they were stalking other people, right. They were. So how do we protect folks without introducing our own biases in the conversation? We created a support group model that responded to the need of the community. Definitely our trans and non-binary groups was the most populated resources. I mean, sometimes we have 40 people in one room cramped in there because it was the only big room. And I say, " ; Oh my God the fire department show[ed] up, now they' ; re gonna shut us down." ; Because it was a small space at the time. So super groups, then we started doing behavioral health and in the way we wanted to see happening for our people. So, things have changed and housing, case working-- I would say [in] two years we became more experienced. We know how to navigate the system and cut the BS about advocating for people and how to do it well. Creating more safety for our community. So sometimes we' ; re like, for instance, human trafficking is a real, real problem in our community. And we notice that a lot of LGBT centers and churches and sport clubs were place[s] where people are going to groom. And sometimes these people are just a year or two years older than the kid that you' ; re serving. You have to be careful to provide a safe space where you' ; re not there to over micromanage people and their own identity, their own sexuality, their own affirmation are the same, but at the same time, provide a space where people can come to you and tell you, " ; Hey, I' ; m an active fifteen year old person, I' ; m sexually active with this person. Maybe they' ; re at my age or a year older." ; How do we go about-- how can I be safe? And things like that. Our youth were coming to us opening their hearts because they knew we weren' ; t there to judge them. We learned all of that, how to be safe, right? If I have a teenager or thirteen [years old] [who] tells me that they were having a relationship, a sexual relationship with someone at twenty-two, we have major red flags. And we' ; re also mandated a reporter, right. We' ; ve done that too in the past. Navigating through all of that was quite interesting. And we learned how to do it. Now we know so much that we are the one training others youth providers around or the police, when the police shows up because someone called them because maybe they' ; re dynamic of stress. We tell the police what to do and how to approach other people. If they don' ; t agree with that, we don' ; t let them in. This is not place for additional violence and trauma. We educated a lot of these institutions that have been the cause of a lot trauma for our community. We work with them when we can, and we do training and we sit on the same table so that we can advocate and build the trust too. But at the same time, we make it clear that as a service, a clinical provider, this is not a space where they' ; re invited. We need to find other way, how to collaborate and do prevention in a community, without having them finding the queer spaces in San Diego County. < ; affirmative> ; That' ; s one of the things. Things have changed. And then COVID of course, we moved everything virtually. I have to say, now that we came back, they were coming back in person. We never closed the center. We always been open throughout the pandemic. We just couldn' ; t afford to close. We receive a lot of support from foundations and founders. They realize that we made everything possible to support people. I would say what has changed and now we have support groups, but people prefer the one-on-one because they can' ; t find socialization quite easily nowadays in different spaces, even virtually, but they like the one-on-one, " ; Hey, help me go through this," ; family reification or mental health crisis, or finding a job, or just supporting their ego and the self-esteem. It looks like they will be more successful to do that one by one, instead of putting everyone in a super group, which we do have some people just love that, but they' ; re usually mostly social, like let' ; s come together for an all queer and non-binary or let' ; s come together. And because those spaces are very vital, important. We are not denying that. I would say though, that we are seeing more progress by doing that different kind of intervention. So maybe we' ; re creating a hybrid, whatever the community needs. We' ; ll have to respond to that. Teater: Oh, I love that. What are some of the challenges that you and the center face today? Disposti: I would say challenges, but also opportunities. < ; affirmative> ; I do believe that LGBT centers are the Planned Parenthood of United States. And what I mean is we are vital spaces and resources for our queer community that no other institutions will ever provide. And preserving, not only preserving, but supporting those spaces. I think it' ; s a commitment to the government, state, federal, county will have to commit to, because as we know, as it' ; s happening, if you take away resources from a Planned Parenthood, that' ; s why the comparison, I mean, half of the population of women in particular, but not just women will not have access to reproductive rights, a fundamental human rights. And if they' ; re left to the single communities, and this is a conversation I have with our elected official Mike Levin, people that they' ; re being very willing to understand. I said, I realized during COVID that if it wasn' ; t < ; affirmative> ; for the private donors and support people with money that stepped in, we would not be open nowadays. And < ; affirmative> ; the government, you have [to] allow us to close our resources. And now it' ; s eleven years old that has helped thousands of people. And now employs twelve people. And that' ; s just not fair. This is not just a volunteer experience, this is the livelihood, but also the safe space for thousands of people. And that' ; s true in many region[s], right? For the San Diego Center, so forth. < ; affirmative> ; While it' ; s good for us to build our own funding streams so that you can stay independent. You don' ; t want the government to give you everything for everything you do, because then they want to have a say about how you run your business. But definitely it' ; s important that, especially in California, where supposedly we have a more progressive leadership to start supporting LGBT center so they can provide vital care, healthcare services, the others don' ; t provide. [Be]cause when people get sexually assaulted that are queer, they don' ; t go to the police station. They come to us when they are in a mental health crisis given by different reasons. They come to us first, when they' ; re in poverty, they come to us when experiencing certain kind of relationships or a tougher life or because of drugs or substance abuse, they come to us because they know we' ; re not here to judge. I would say that' ; s why we' ; re the planned parenthood of the community < ; affirmative> ; [be]cause it' ; s an essential vital resource. The challenges are that we' ; re not there yet, so that we are left alone to do this work. And now that we have experienced and seen the highest record of anti-LGBT legislation passing in Congress, a passing or proposed in different states and in Congress, this conversation, as you know, they hit home, our kids, even though they' ; re in California. And we know that we' ; re a little bit more protected here. We still have people at the school district level showing up and addressing and stigmatizing and penalizing our queerness. We still have people in position of power taking advantage of those narratives and bring back the same old recycled anti-LGBT religious based narratives. The trauma continues every time we hear that, even though it' ; s not here geographically speaking. That' ; s the challenges that in a time where communication goes past left and right, that sometimes even news needs to be vetted. The trauma that the previous administration has caused, we' ; re still dealing with it. Or the Trump administration for those in the record that might watch this years to come, or even now with all the anti-LGBT bills from Florida in Texas, in Ohio, South Dakota, I mean, these are thousands, hundreds of thousands LGBT youth in particular trans youth. They are denied their own assistance. And in 2022 I was hoping not to see that again, instead we are (inaudible) < ; affirmative> ; I have hope, I think we have a lot of things going our favor, including a history of resilience, but it' ; s tough. It' ; s tough for a lot of people. < ; affirmative> ; (Unintelligible) will fight because it' ; s value our own existence, but for a lot of people don' ; t have the means the energy < ; affirmative> ; and we will have to fight for them too. < ; affirmative> ; I see a lot of challenges. They are not just political or cultural, or educational and people really go around spreading a lot of misinformation around the (unintelligible) kids, supposedly getting surgery at the age of eight, which is total bullshit < ; affirmative> ; when it' ; s actually through the opposite. I think that' ; s the challenge of nowadays, they still go and the racism, the institutionalized violence that it' ; s part of the North American culture unfortunately. I think we are an extremely violent culture. < ; affirmative> ; I can say that because coming from another-- when a different kind of violence from the European experience in Italy in particular, I can say though, that a lot of people that are born and raised here don' ; t even realize the, the level of competitive individualism that' ; s being created here in North America to a point that now we have a national pandemic and a worldwide pandemic, and people are even struggling to care for their own neighbors by protecting their self and other, right. < ; affirmative> ; I' ; m really concerned about those dynamics of violence and isolation, individualism that our society has brought us to be < ; affirmative> ; That goes along with building an LGBT center. Teater: Yeah. You touched on this a little bit earlier, but given the history of policing with the LGBTQ+ community even in San Diego, how do you feel that police and sheriff trainings are received? Disposti: I' ; m gonna say that really, even though I train the Escondido police, the Oceanside police, Carlsbad Sheriff Department, we do training with FBI. I met amazing people in those spaces. I mean, here and there < ; affirmative> ; I don' ; t wanna generalize. [Be]cause I met folks with coming from, they shouldn' ; t be there in my opinion. I don' ; t have any trust that the police or any law enforcement will ever, ever represent the interest of those that are working and living. And those of us that are really struggling for a better tomorrow, I mean law enforcement is there to preserve the status quo and we don' ; t like the status quo < ; affirmative> ; of course we like democracy and all of that, but I don' ; t have any confidence in that. You know what I say that to even the officer I train, I tell them I don' ; t dehumanize you because I think people [that] are there are human beings and making their own decisions. Their own sacrifices with their family and many of them risk their life, < ; affirmative> ; for something that [they' ; re] living. I' ; m not here to dehumanize individuals and call them and isolate them. I have a lot of relationships with police in the relations to, in a very transparent way, there are not. For instance, we have meetings that we sit at the table I' ; m always very clear about: I don' ; t think that policing belongs to queer spaces. I don' ; t think that policing, and even though I know that police gets, especially LGBT law enforcement feel like betrayed by the fact that " ; I' ; m a police LGBT officer, I [want to] be in this space because I earn it." ; But the problem that they can' ; t forget or separate themselves from the uniform they' ; re wearing and what has represented for our, it' ; s still percent for our queer and people of color in North American particular. Any region is different, but-- < ; affirmative> ; . What I would say is I believe that training reduce the impact of policing in our community. I believe that building relationships can build trust. That something happens. I can go to the police advocate for my people, and I want answers and vice versa, I think will help the police to understand why there is fear in our community of reporting to the police. Because when you have been called faggot by a police officer, when nobody is watching, it' ; s your word against theirs. So that happens a lot of time < ; affirmative> ; on watch. But then there is no way we can prove it. That happens everywhere all the time. And so personally speaking, and this is, I wouldn' ; t say it' ; s a statement to my organization, even though I would say it' ; s a common vision. I think collaborations with police, it' ; s important to, in terms of creating relationships, reducing the impact of policing in our community. But I think the institution of policing is to be completely reinvented from zero. If we wanted to be the force that serves the community, it doesn' ; t protect status quo. I know some people might say radical views, but I met police in different countries, just in North America and they were never on our side. Teater: Yeah. How does local policing here compare to in Italy per se or places in Europe? [Be]cause I' ; m not too familiar with their policing practices. Disposti: America is anomaly. The whole integration of LGBT experiences into the normalcy of the everyday life has a good outcome, but also has developed contradictions. The fact that the police needs to show up in our places and parade with us as a-- in North American seen as a progress, when in Italy it' ; [s] like, " ; Okay, we don' ; t need to hate each other, but my job is policing. It' ; s not to lead the LGBT movements into pro-policing know against policing." ; Right? It' ; s a different experience with police when I was, even though it was a different time policing in our LGBT experience in Italy was always a (unintelligible) < ; affirmative> ; . There were never-- nobody will ever think that we need policing in our streets with us. It' ; s a different comparison. Of course, I don' ; t live in Italy now, even though I go back every year and my family' ; s there and they' ; re still active. I definitely have a sense of what' ; s going on, but < ; affirmative> ; , it' ; s just a different thing. People look at us and say, why you need the whole military marching with you, why you need the whole-- and I understand the sense of the fact that LGBT people are everywhere. We [want to] show the normalcy, that being queer is not anything that' ; s out there, but you know, you can be a police officer queer, a doctor, and I do like that. I do marry the cost that every price should be open to everyone that marches. But we got in a point here in Northern America, where now police is telling us how they [want to] show up. They are in San Diego in particular, they are dictating almost the way they should be representing themselves when maybe they have only three, four LGBT police officer. And they' ; re using them as a token to show that the whole force is pro-LGBT. Then they run surveys through the UCSD [University of California San Diego] or through the service for the Sheriff department that you realize how much homophobic and transphobic and racist the force still is. To me, they haven' ; t earned that spot. I' ; m just gonna be frank. And I told this to chief of police from Oceanside to San Diego to Chula Vista. I tell that in a very not threatening way, they trust me actually. And they like to talk to me because I' ; m truthful. I don' ; t beat the bush around. I' ; m just gonna tell I' ; m gonna work with you and everything else. But I think you were invited at the table and now you think you own the table and that' ; s okay with me, but the police has an incredible force in America. The lobby of policing, the elected officials get money from policing < ; affirmative> ; San Diego Police Departments extremely powerful, and they impose their will on, or social organizations and organizing. < ; affirmative> ; To ask, for instance, going back in the merit, I will have been happy to see the police marching maybe with their own t-shirts and shorts, you know, so that you can tell everybody you are the San Diego Police Department. And so that your department can be proud of you. And I think that should be alright. But the whole presence of uniform and weapons in a inclusive parade is meant to be inclusive of everyone. Includes those that are now super patriotic, or nationalistic, nationalist and so forth. I think it' ; s very not conducive of a good relationship. It' ; s just a parade. < ; affirmative> ; I don' ; t feel it' ; s very-- so I' ; m sorry if I took you a little bit off, but this is-- Teater: No, you' ; re good. I' ; m right there with you. Disposti: It' ; s such a current happening. Maybe people watching this many years from now, I wonder what they will think of it, but right now I feel that we' ; re not there. They have to earn their space. And also let' ; s remember talking about our region when you have a pride parade, you have people coming from all over the county, you have people coming from LA Mesa, Fallbrook in places where policing, the impact of policing on the streets is not as kind of transparent as it could be in any other spaces where we earn that. Right. Like in Hillcrest < ; affirmative> ; right. We need to be mindful of the experience of our queer people of policing in Chula Vista or other places, not just San Diego proper. What you see the police marching, is not everyone has the same reaction, and you cannot normalize policing by just marching an parade. You need to work every single day. So that' ; s my-- Teater: Yeah, exactly. So, what is the center' ; s relationship with military members of the community then? [Be]cause I know they sort of have a kinship, but like they' ; re different, but they' ; re not, but they are. Disposti: Well. Because we cannot, I mean, I can tell you my personal stance about < ; affirmative> ; worth' ; s, and army, and the military. I think we spend too much money into it when this country struggle to support its own people that live here. Obviously, I' ; m not sympathetic about any choice of military that' ; s military related, but when it comes to LGBT experience, I have to say the immediate impact of let' ; s say the Marines here, the Navy on our immediate community is incomparable with policing. And what I mean, they' ; re not doing racial profiling here in San Diego. They' ; re not doing-- There is not a direct impact and < ; affirmative> ; for a city like Oceanside, which every family member has someone in the military. I would say that also understanding the importance of what they give and how they feel it. That is their dedication, their passion. We need to respect that. We serve a lot of veterans, a lot of military folks, but many of these folks, LGBT usually we serve them because they struggle through the military services. They went through < ; affirmative> ; health, sexual assault abuses that could never report from their commanders, < ; affirmative> ; transphobia, homophobia, punishments of any kind. We support folks because these are our people. < ; affirmative> ; It' ; s not my place to tell them where they should go. We meet them where they are. < ; affirmative> ; But definitely it' ; s a different experience. I would say I met amazing folks that actually have been a resource for the center and helping others from the army, from some of the Marines or the many, many veterans that they are a part of our volunteer team. I' ; m sure some of them might not share my views. These are personal view, again, not the center view, but definitely we did think about building a center in a military community. You could completely subject to it and be dictated on how to express your sentiment around military actions. You can be who you are and supporting the queer people around the world. That' ; s my goal as a human rights and civil rights activist that I-- doesn' ; t believe in any borders, or in any particular nationality, I focus on the help that my folks need in the entire world. If the America gets in the middle of that, then I will definitely denounce it but it' ; s beyond the scope of the center. It' ; s more my personal perspective. < ; affirmative> ; I think we are all connected in so many different ways. Teater < ; affirmative> ; I love that. I have a couple more questions. I' ; m [going to] switch gears a little bit. What does it mean to you that the resource center has been open for eleven years now? Disposti: < ; laugh> ; It means a lot. I can' ; t believe it. And I don' ; t look back too many times, when I do I get emotional. We had our first staff meeting after a while. I mean, in person and in the past six months alone, we hire[d] six people. So now we' ; re[employees] twelve. < ; affirmative> ; And just look around the table with beautiful queer diversity around us, people with incredible (unintelligible). And I just couldn' ; t even envision this years ago, I knew it was coming, but now seeing these people around me, each one of them gives so much, it brings so much to the center. I get really emotional, but I tend to look ahead of me in terms of, there' ; s so much we [want to] do. Just to give you an idea, this center is really small. Now we really need that center is four or five times bigger, so we can grow and serve really serve North County. I don' ; t feel, we are able to say we are the North County LGBT center because we serve everyone, but truly serving everyone from Escondido to--, it' ; s just not, at this moment, practically possible. It takes resources. < ; affirmative> ; Not just volunteers and time and resources and money. I can' ; t imagine a queer person in Escondido, in order to be served they have to come to Oceanside. That alone is a barrier. We encourage, even though we like to serve the whole region, that there are new experiences that we can support them and share with them what we did so they can learn it. We' ; re not in competition with other spaces growing and coming up, but it' ; s not an easy thing to do. I would say I' ; m proud of what we did, of what we accomplished, but before I finish with the center experience, whenever that is, I [want to] see a huge building, thriving with a lot of people in it. And mostly with a lot of brand-new leaderships that can take that, toward and moving forward. That would make me happy in so many different ways. So, yeah. Teater: Oh, that' ; s so nice. During your time as an activist, and this' ; ll be my final question, during your time as an activist, what has brought you the most joy? Disposti: Oh gosh. I don' ; t think I can single out one. Teater: What were some of the experiences? Disposti: Opening the center, the grand opening of the center. Definitely. People showed up for that dream. Really so many, I' ; ve been so fortunate to have so many memories, but definitely the opening the center. The meeting that we had two weeks ago, I told you looking around and see, oh my gosh, these are my people and the staff, and the center is growing. The people coming forward after a few years of months that visit us, and we help them and thanking us for truly-- And when I say save the life, I don' ; t mean in such a-- these were people struggling with their own existence. When I say save the life, I mean, it physically not--I mean, taught them the way. Right. I don' ; t [want to] be so pretentious of presumptions or, we are not telling people what to do, but many people really couldn' ; t survive without our support that has to do with mostly believing in them. When stories like that are coming back to you, you know, you' ; re on the right path, are doing the right work. So many, I can' ; t pin it down, but mostly had to do with my community being there for my community and here at the center. So-- Teater: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing with me. Is there anything else you wanted to mention before we sign off? Disposti: No, it' ; s hard to recollect now, but I' ; m sorry for getting through the emotions. Teater: Oh no, I love it all. It' ; s perfect. Disposti: You know, me? Yeah. I don' ; t shy away from that. No, thank you. Thank you for doing this work. That' ; s what I [want to] say that I know how important it' ; s because we' ; re doing an archive here at the center as well, and we are doing the same interviews to the people that were here, the key leaders in the communities, even prior to the opening of the center, it' ; s a very tedious, slow process that takes years in the making. I appreciate you and your team for even thinking about this. And for creating this record that one day will be so helpful for people, or maybe not for people to watch. And I wish I had that when I started the center, looking back to the stories and the voices of those that came before us, because we always stand on the shoulder. Those that came became before us, even though there was not an LGBT center, but, you know, yeah. That' ; s what we got. Thank you. Thank you. Teater: Thank you. Well, I' ; m [going to] stop the recording now. Disposti: Perfect. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives
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Disposti, Max. Interview April 26, 2022
Description
An account of the resource
Max Disposti is the founder and Executive Director of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. In this interview, Max discusses his upbringing in Rome, Italy as a queer male and his experience coming to the U.S. and his quest to open the Resource Center. Max Disposti also talks about the parallels in how the LGBTQ+ community is treated in Italy in comparison to America.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
SC027-14
Subject
The topic of the resource
LGBTQ+ activism
LGBTQ+ rights
North County LGBT Resource Center -- California -- Oceanside
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2022-04-26
Format
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audio
Coverage
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Rome (Italy)
North County (San Diego County, Calif.)
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights Holder
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Max Disposti
Creator
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Max Disposti
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Madison Teater
Activists and activism
Community history
History Department internship
Immigrant experience
LGBTQIA+ experience
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e24d158796639884e608761a96307eb3.pdf
2610199d500af06717da987ed89ee24d
PDF Text
Text
MAX DISPOSTI
TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW,
2022-04-26
MJ Teater:
Hello. My name is MJ Teeter. Today is Tuesday, April 26th, 2022, and it is 3:00 PM. I'm here with Max
Disposti. Thank you for joining me, Max. How are you today?
Max Disposti:
I'm honored to be here. Absolutely good. It's a beautiful day out there. Even though I haven't been able
to go and see the light <laugh> <affirmative> I mean, at the center working, but we're all very excited.
Yes.
Teater:
Yeah. Great. For the recording, can you introduce yourself what your name is? Your pronouns, when you
were born, and what you do for work?
Disposti:
Okay. My name is Max Disposti, pronouns he/him. I'm a cisgender gay male and I was born in Rome in
1968, long time ago. And I am the executive director and founder of the North County LGBTQ Resource
Center.
Teater:
Awesome. And what did your parents do for work?
Disposti:
Oh, my parents now are retired because they're 85 years old. They're still alive and they live in Rome,
Italy, but they were both working class individuals, actually my mom stayed at home even though she
was an activist all her life, very active feminist in the city of Rome and my father as well.
Teater:
Well, that's awesome. <affirmative> Can you tell me about, maybe a little bit about your childhood and
some of your educational experience?
Disposti:
Sure. When I grew up in Rome, you know, I came from a family that was poor, but you know not too
poor not to provide for me in terms of, you know, food and a good safe environment, you know
healthcare and education in Italy and Europe are still free. Definitely having access to a higher education
was not a challenge, at least not from the standpoint of view of affordability. I grew up in a very safe
environment, even though, you know, we were struggling every month to make ends meet. I would say
my childhood has been affected by the activism of both of my parents. I only have one siblings that's five
years older than me also lives in Rome right now, my brother. And so throughout my life I was always
exposed to diversity and others in Italy at the time. And still nowadays, there was a big migration from
Africa and our country and Middle East or Eastern Europe. It depends on the time at the time, it was
mostly from North Africa and my family was hosting people and greeting them and making sure that
they were safe. I grew up in an environment where we always care about others, even though we had
little for ourselves. Our table was always with more people and usually people from different cultures as
well. My family exposed me to all of this, even though my own mom and my own dad didn't have any
academic education, so to speak, they couldn't pursue a higher education, but also they were during the
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TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW,
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war at the time <affirmative> even going to high school was a privilege that just few wealthy families
could afford. I consider myself lucky, of course, when I came out at the age of thirteen there's always
that struggle of homophobia, transphobia in a city, in a country that's dominated by Catholic Church.
Even though my parents were not religious whatsoever it infiltrates into the patriarchal narratives.
When I came out as a gay man at the time it definitely was a surprise and an issue at first to a point I
needed to detach from my family. They never pushed me outside so they were not against me but I
needed my own space. I was thirteen, fourteen and I was already an activist in the community. But it
was never a traumatic experience. I went through my time of self-affirmation and then I came back to
them with more-- I knew I could conquer their hearts and mind around this because there were people I
could talk to. I was definitely in a privileged position versus other friends of mine. They just end up on
the street. <affirmative>. So that's my childhood. That's who I am. For me early on, on my sense of social
justice, that activism around issues that they were not just LGBT related you know, human rights,
immigration rights and against the war all the time. And at the time America, I was definitely not a place
where I was aiming to live. It was this big monster imperialistic country that goes around to conquer
spaces and lifestyles. We were not a fan of it, but love brought me to California and my first love, I
would say serious enough to drag me there. And then one thing led to another, I end up staying in
California. Again, though I overstay my visa. I became undocumented for about five, six years of my first
time. I had to experience all of that fear because now I'm in love with someone. I didn't want to lose
them. <affirmative> so that's a little bit my story, even though I always recognized my privilege to come
from a place that was definitely not devastated by war and crime or violence. I still felt that I couldn't go
back to it just because if I did at the time, I could never return to the U.S. I did my best and my education
helped me to go through all the application process and so forth to become a citizen and live the best of
both world[s] pretty much, back at home and here in California. So, yeah, I hope I didn't share too much.
Teater:
No, that's great. I love this. Can you tell me a bit more about your education? What did you study?
Disposti:
When I was in Italy I was really driven by social studies since day one. But my high school years were
troubled by a lot of strikes that I organized. I can’t even blame anybody, I was always striking for better
schools, better conditions against discrimination. At the time being openly gay was a threat. It was a
threat to myself. I think people never touched me or attacked me physically because I was so out that
would have exposed them as well. Right. <affirmative> It was one of those I realized the more vocal out I
was, the more protection I was bringing to myself because the people there to be that kinda person,
especially in a religious country like that, there's always that fade. I mean, that face that you had to
keep, you know, in order decency. High school was problematic. I did finish high school and then I went
to the university, high school was just-- in Europe, you already pick in high school what you think you're
gonna do in the future. It was graphic design related, a fashion design. Then I look around me, you're in
Italy with amazing talented artists. And I look at me and say, “oh my gosh, I would never make it.” These
people are just-- each one of them is an artist. I realize it wasn't really for me as well. I went into
university and developed more social sociology and social studies. I graduated from-- I got my
bachelor[s] over there, but didn't do much with it after a few years-- I mean when I was 30 years old,
then I decided to move to the U.S. And here I started over my study and I took my bachelor[s] in political
science. And then I went back to get a master [in] nonprofit management in leaderships, which I
graduated from in 2016. Not really long ago. Recent, because it was a means for me, I didn't need the
academic title. I really needed to know more about the work I was doing, particularly in nonprofit. I had
to tell you it was money well invested, even though I'm still paying for it, <laugh> after so many years.
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TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW,
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And it really helped me to understand more about nonprofit governments and leadership as well. In
addition to what I already knew. So yeah, that's my academic background pretty much.
Teater:
Man, you've lived such a fascinating life. <laugh> So you touched on it a little bit, but what was your
career like before the North County Resource Center?
Disposti:
The north county resource center, I would say around 2007 or 2008 is when I made that decision to do
what I do, even though at first was not a paid position. I needed to save as much as I could, reserve
anything, because I didn't know where this was going to take me. <affirmative>. Prior to that, when I
came in the U.S. even though I was very active and volunteering for different things, I was fortunate
enough-- at the beginning I was working in hotel, the hotel industry, I used to be in San Francisco for
four years. Then it was a little bit of dot com, I was doing a lot of translating because I speak Spanish and
Italian. I was doing a lot of translating from one and to another with platforms, Yahoo platform and so
forth. That was a very well-paid job. <affirmative> Even at the time that helped me out a little bit uplift
my resources, but I wasn't documented at the time. I couldn't really invest into school or nothing
because I knew I just couldn't do that to that point. And so I married my previous husband at the time in
San Francisco, we decided to come down here because he had family members in the military. And
when we moved to Oceanside was the place where it was cheaper and affordable. I did like the beach. I
liked the fact it was Southern California. I bought at first into the life okay. Once I finish with my own
immigration status, which lasted 10 years struggle. So that's why I'm very, not only sympathetic, but not
many people understand about what it means to be an immigrant in this place where I had at that point,
the money and the lawyers to fight the system and an education, but if it was running away from any
other country from famine, war, or violence, there is no way that the U.S. will have offered me an
alternative there is just no one, legally speaking. There is not an alternative if you become
undocumented to fix your record, really not even if you marry someone. It's just not the way it is
anymore. It took me 10 years. Yes. I feel privileged because I was able to go through all of that. In the
process, I started working to make some money because my dream was always to open a community
center. <affirmative> And as I was making the money, I joined some real estate firms. I was a broker and
I became very successful because I was this guy that was very realistic. I didn't have dreams of screwing
people over to make money. My dream was building LGBT center. I think people saw that in me, that
was honest that sometimes I told people, don't buy this house because really too big for you, is not
gonna be a good choice, because then you're gonna have this huge mortgage. I was having this
conversation with folks, and I think the more I was honest with them, the more business was coming to
me. I was doing really well at a certain point, I needed to make the decision to pull the plug and go into
unemployment. Mind you I didn't say thousands of thousands of dollars, just enough to go by that
unemployment lasted. I mean, I was unemployed for two years because the center couldn't pay me. I
mean, it was me <affirmative> and starting a center I needed full-time dedications on everything from
gathering resources, putting people together, dynamics of power that you encounter, opening the door
and having someone there eight hours a day, it was a huge, huge undertaking. But I never felt alone. I
always felt fortunate that people trusted me in the process. And also my leadership style has always
been very sharing. The resources was never about me, my name and putting my name in top of the
things I did, even though at the beginning, it shows a lot me and the center. My name is very linked to it,
but mostly I started the center, but I always bring the honor, the credit to the many people, many, many
people that made the center what it is today. So that's how it brought to me. I brought those corporate
leaderships into this business. I brought my nonprofit academic research. I brought my life experience as
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TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW,
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an activist. And I think everything just worked together. I was there for the right reason and not to rush
things through. And I just had hope in my community here that things will have become like they are
today or even more. Yeah, the dream's still on and we still have a lot of things we want to accomplish.
<affirmative>
Teater:
In terms of the LGBT community, what was that like in North County? Because I know North County
doesn't really have much of a presence as far as LGBT representation, as much as say Downtown or
Hillcrest has.
Disposti:
<affirmative> It was not easy. I had to fight internally and externally, it was opening the door of the
center in a military town. I knew it was going to be difficult because it was at the time all North County
was extremely conservative. We received threat. We had our windows smashed several times. We
elected people that didn't wanna meet us in person. This was obviously 2008 and 2009. Also 2008 was
the year of the campaign for marriage equality. The center at this point was not open because we
opened 2011, but we were active as a group. It was called North County LGBT coalition. So we were
meeting weekly. We were an organizations with all we were grassroot at the same time. We had a board
of directors. I mean we were an organization, but not yet with a space because we were saving money
to open one. And yeah, North County was quite brutal, but also interesting enough because we were the
only organized entity in North County, we received a lot of support and a lot of love from a lot of people
from family and youth and so forth. We connected right away with preexisting grassroot groups in North
County, in particular, with Link Lesbian in North County, there is a lot of history around what they've
done here in North County for 20 years since women met under cover every Friday to create a support
system for themselves, even the gay guys were cruising and the whole spots Oceanside had, the
Marines were here. There was a lot of LGBT presence in Oceanside. We used to have two gay bars up to
2002, then they closed down just because the owners got old. But there was a lot of LGBT happening. It
reminds me what it used to be in San Diego prior to the seventies when the Marines were there. And it
became an LGBT Hillcrest [?] in particular place to go because there were a lot of Navy and Marines
coming to town and finally they could be true to themself, right? Oceanside, North County was brewing
with Marines that they were gay and Navy officers as well, but it was always-- the community was
always in denial. Oceanside was a place where there were a lot of street workers, a lot of LGBT people, a
lot of trans women, that had to, not by choice, in that case, to become strict workers because they
didn't have opportunity for jobs. So quite a rough place, when we came in people couldn't believe that
there [were] enough to put ourself out there and call ourself an LGBT center and having the rainbow flag
outside. At first we had people just walking into the door. I remember the seniors in particular, literally
were emotionally taken by the fact that we were just there. And at first I saw we're not doing anything
special. We're just here with a flag outside, running some support groups, but we didn't realize at first
the impact we're having soon, so many lives and people that came and dropped their life story on us,
seniors and youth. And then all of a sudden we started seeing more and more, our amazing trans kiddos
<laugh>. And that was when we started advocating within our own community with our old generation
of gay male to the fact that this is the time for us to give back to those of us that are still struggling and
understanding how, not only embrace our trans identities, not as a plus or a sign of solidarity, but as a
full part of the community, that's always been there, but always been hidden, not by their choice. It was
the constitutions of our mission statement at the center. We were fortunate enough that since day one,
when no one was talking about trans rights, other than trans people, of course, by meaning the
mainstream of the LGBT community. <affirmative> Our board was composed by trans folks, the support
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TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW,
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groups. We started hiring therapists, everybody was volunteering at the time to work with our folks.
And we had hundreds, hundreds of kids coming at the center during a week basis. And we learned so
much from them, their struggle, their pain, one of this kids became my son because he decided to adopt
me. Now he's 22, so he's already grown up and he's a trans male, lives with his girlfriend now and
everything else. But so it was a overall real experience. That was never a job for me, never just a job or
never just a phase. Right. And I think at that time already, we realized that we needed to educate those
old leaderships that they were popping up. And they were excited that we were there, but they started
warning us. Hey, this place is becoming, you guys always only care about transcripts. It seems like, what
about gay people? Or what about, I say, we don't exclude anyone, but now we need to be together to
enhance the voices. So those that haven't been, that have been left out for so many years, because
when I grew up in Rome at the age of thirteen, fourteen, I was always surrounded by trans people. They
were my friends <affirmative>. When people tell me, “Oh, I dunno, what's going on now? All of a
sudden, everybody is trans or whatever,” say, “no, it's always been like that.” We always been around. I
say, we, even though I'm a cisgender gay guy, because I've been blessed to be educated through the
experience for many years when I was thirteen, fourteen. For me to hear an older white male that tells
me that I say “You haven't looked around too much. You have been focused on yourself for too long.” I
would say that was a journey that allowed me to create a center with a culture and a vision where
people, when they joined, they needed to know the old that were on board with the whole spectrum,
LGTQI or that wasn't the place for them. And we lost some people in the process. We lost some donors,
no regrets. We earned again so much more. And now that people are finally recollecting the necessity to
bring home what we’ve started thirty, forty years ago, or fifty years ago with Stonewall to bring it back
home with everyone, or just some of us, I think, now people are looking at us and say, “Oh wow, you
guys were right. You were always there.” And yeah, we were, we are, and we will. And now we're
embracing the intersex identities and struggle because again, they're being ask[ed] to be part of our
community because many of them are, and that we've been advocating with them now at the children
hospital in San Diego to change the horrible practices of mutilation of our organs just to feed the
stereotypical expectations [of] what gender or sexes of birth is all about. We always been there in the
forefront and when we weren't, we look into ourself to do better. You can imagine how the past three,
four years with the Black Lives Matter Movement with adding colors to our flag, how not only we
wanted to embrace, but realize that all our identities are not just one identity, right? That we had to be
vocal of about the struggle that our own queer people in our own community BIPOC folks are still
enduring because of police brutality, institutional violence, and a way to do nonprofits has been
whitewashed for many years. And how white supremacists in filtered into our own community. How it
shows up? Recognizing how to do that and making yourself vulnerable to it and not defensive on when
you might be perpetuating those dynamics. I think it's part of everyday challenges is what I love the
most to be honest, because I don't wanna come to a point where I say, “Oh, I think I know everything,
and now I got all of my boxes checked.” Nothing else comes through when it's not true. Life is always
moving. Right. And so are we, so, yeah. That's how difficult it was in North County, but I focus on the
positive, but we lost some kids in the process in 2014 and by loss, I mean, Taylor, Alisana[?], Sage, and
Tyler took their own life. There were transcripts that made national news and there were three of them
served by our center. And still troubling for me to talk about it. But I always try to honor their lives
because they didn't go in pain, even though I wish they were here. But they taught us a bigger lesson.
We believed our kids when they were telling us they were struggling to a point they didn't wanna live
anymore. There wasn't just a face or a way to drag attention to themselves. It was a real struggle of
pain. Some of us didn't have the privilege. Some of us had the privilege not to experience, by being
cisgender. We learn a lot in that process. Sorry. <laugh>
Teater:
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No, it's okay. I appreciate you sharing with me. I'll shift to maybe a lighter subject <laugh> for a quick
second. What are some of the resources and services that are offered at the North County Resource
Center and how have they changed over time?
Disposti:
Yeah. You know we started in a way at the beginning, really. We didn't have need assessment. We didn't
know really how to do any of it eleven years ago. We just said, “Hey, if more than three people come
forward and tell us, can we have a super group? For seniors, for non-binary folks, for trans folks?” they
say that means it's needed. So, we'll find a facilitator and create guidelines. We were always very serious
around policies and procedures and guidelines and protecting ourselves and others in the process. So,
we're never easy about that. The opposite. I think that so many times, because while we were a
grassroot organization, we knew exactly the level of liability we could incur by just gathering people. You
know, there were people [who] were coming because they were stalking other people, right. They were.
So how do we protect folks without introducing our own biases in the conversation? We created a
support group model that responded to the need of the community. Definitely our trans and non-binary
groups was the most populated resources. I mean, sometimes we have 40 people in one room cramped
in there because it was the only big room. And I say, “Oh my God the fire department show[ed] up, now
they're gonna shut us down.” Because it was a small space at the time. So super groups, then we started
doing behavioral health and in the way we wanted to see happening for our people. So, things have
changed and housing, case working-- I would say [in] two years we became more experienced. We know
how to navigate the system and cut the BS about advocating for people and how to do it well. Creating
more safety for our community. So sometimes we're like, for instance, human trafficking is a real, real
problem in our community. And we notice that a lot of LGBT centers and churches and sport clubs were
place[s] where people are going to groom. And sometimes these people are just a year or two years
older than the kid that you're serving. You have to be careful to provide a safe space where you're not
there to over micromanage people and their own identity, their own sexuality, their own affirmation are
the same, but at the same time, provide a space where people can come to you and tell you, “Hey, I'm
an active fifteen year old person, I’m sexually active with this person. Maybe they're at my age or a year
older.” How do we go about-- how can I be safe? And things like that. Our youth were coming to us
opening their hearts because they knew we weren’t there to judge them. We learned all of that, how to
be safe, right? If I have a teenager or thirteen [years old] [who] tells me that they were having a
relationship, a sexual relationship with someone at twenty-two, we have major red flags. And we’re also
mandated a reporter, right. We've done that too in the past. Navigating through all of that was quite
interesting. And we learned how to do it. Now we know so much that we are the one training others
youth providers around or the police, when the police shows up because someone called them because
maybe they're dynamic of stress. We tell the police what to do and how to approach other people. If
they don't agree with that, we don't let them in. This is not place for additional violence and trauma. We
educated a lot of these institutions that have been the cause of a lot trauma for our community. We
work with them when we can, and we do training and we sit on the same table so that we can advocate
and build the trust too. But at the same time, we make it clear that as a service, a clinical provider, this is
not a space where they're invited. We need to find other way, how to collaborate and do prevention in a
community, without having them finding the queer spaces in San Diego County. <affirmative> That's one
of the things. Things have changed. And then COVID of course, we moved everything virtually. I have to
say, now that we came back, they were coming back in person. We never closed the center. We always
been open throughout the pandemic. We just couldn't afford to close. We receive a lot of support from
foundations and founders. They realize that we made everything possible to support people. I would say
what has changed and now we have support groups, but people prefer the one-on-one because they
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can't find socialization quite easily nowadays in different spaces, even virtually, but they like the one-onone, “Hey, help me go through this,” family reification or mental health crisis, or finding a job, or just
supporting their ego and the self-esteem. It looks like they will be more successful to do that one by
one, instead of putting everyone in a super group, which we do have some people just love that, but
they're usually mostly social, like let's come together for an all queer and non-binary or let's come
together. And because those spaces are very vital, important. We are not denying that. I would say
though, that we are seeing more progress by doing that different kind of intervention. So maybe we're
creating a hybrid, whatever the community needs. We'll have to respond to that.
Teater:
Oh, I love that. What are some of the challenges that you and the center face today?
Disposti:
I would say challenges, but also opportunities. <affirmative> I do believe that LGBT centers are the
Planned Parenthood of United States. And what I mean is we are vital spaces and resources for our
queer community that no other institutions will ever provide. And preserving, not only preserving, but
supporting those spaces. I think it's a commitment to the government, state, federal, county will have to
commit to, because as we know, as it's happening, if you take away resources from a Planned
Parenthood, that's why the comparison, I mean, half of the population of women in particular, but not
just women will not have access to reproductive rights, a fundamental human rights. And if they're left
to the single communities, and this is a conversation I have with our elected official Mike Levin, people
that they're being very willing to understand. I said, I realized during COVID that if it wasn't
<affirmative> for the private donors and support people with money that stepped in, we would not be
open nowadays. And <affirmative> the government, you have [to] allow us to close our resources. And
now it's eleven years old that has helped thousands of people. And now employs twelve people. And
that's just not fair. This is not just a volunteer experience, this is the livelihood, but also the safe space
for thousands of people. And that's true in many region[s], right? For the San Diego Center, so forth.
<affirmative> While it's good for us to build our own funding streams so that you can stay independent.
You don't want the government to give you everything for everything you do, because then they want to
have a say about how you run your business. But definitely it's important that, especially in California,
where supposedly we have a more progressive leadership to start supporting LGBT center so they can
provide vital care, healthcare services, the others don't provide. [Be]cause when people get sexually
assaulted that are queer, they don't go to the police station. They come to us when they are in a mental
health crisis given by different reasons. They come to us first, when they're in poverty, they come to us
when experiencing certain kind of relationships or a tougher life or because of drugs or substance abuse,
they come to us because they know we're not here to judge. I would say that's why we’re the planned
parenthood of the community <affirmative> [be]cause it's an essential vital resource. The challenges are
that we're not there yet, so that we are left alone to do this work. And now that we have experienced
and seen the highest record of anti-LGBT legislation passing in Congress, a passing or proposed in
different states and in Congress, this conversation, as you know, they hit home, our kids, even though
they're in California. And we know that we're a little bit more protected here. We still have people at
the school district level showing up and addressing and stigmatizing and penalizing our queerness. We
still have people in position of power taking advantage of those narratives and bring back the same old
recycled anti-LGBT religious based narratives. The trauma continues every time we hear that, even
though it's not here geographically speaking. That's the challenges that in a time where communication
goes past left and right, that sometimes even news needs to be vetted. The trauma that the previous
administration has caused, we're still dealing with it. Or the Trump administration for those in the
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record that might watch this years to come, or even now with all the anti-LGBT bills from Florida in
Texas, in Ohio, South Dakota, I mean, these are thousands, hundreds of thousands LGBT youth in
particular trans youth. They are denied their own assistance. And in 2022 I was hoping not to see that
again, instead we are (inaudible) <affirmative> I have hope, I think we have a lot of things going our
favor, including a history of resilience, but it's tough. It's tough for a lot of people. <affirmative>
(Unintelligible) will fight because it's value our own existence, but for a lot of people don't have the
means the energy <affirmative> and we will have to fight for them too. <affirmative> I see a lot of
challenges. They are not just political or cultural, or educational and people really go around spreading a
lot of misinformation around the (unintelligible) kids, supposedly getting surgery at the age of eight,
which is total bullshit <affirmative> when it's actually through the opposite. I think that's the challenge
of nowadays, they still go and the racism, the institutionalized violence that it's part of the North
American culture unfortunately. I think we are an extremely violent culture. <affirmative> I can say that
because coming from another-- when a different kind of violence from the European experience in Italy
in particular, I can say though, that a lot of people that are born and raised here don't even realize the,
the level of competitive individualism that's being created here in North America to a point that now we
have a national pandemic and a worldwide pandemic, and people are even struggling to care for their
own neighbors by protecting their self and other, right. <affirmative> I'm really concerned about those
dynamics of violence and isolation, individualism that our society has brought us to be <affirmative>
That goes along with building an LGBT center.
Teater:
Yeah. You touched on this a little bit earlier, but given the history of policing with the LGBTQ+
community even in San Diego, how do you feel that police and sheriff trainings are received?
Disposti:
I'm gonna say that really, even though I train the Escondido police, the Oceanside police, Carlsbad
Sheriff Department, we do training with FBI. I met amazing people in those spaces. I mean, here and
there <affirmative> I don't wanna generalize. [Be]cause I met folks with coming from, they shouldn't be
there in my opinion. I don't have any trust that the police or any law enforcement will ever, ever
represent the interest of those that are working and living. And those of us that are really struggling for
a better tomorrow, I mean law enforcement is there to preserve the status quo and we don't like the
status quo <affirmative> of course we like democracy and all of that, but I don't have any confidence in
that. You know what I say that to even the officer I train, I tell them I don't dehumanize you because I
think people [that] are there are human beings and making their own decisions. Their own sacrifices
with their family and many of them risk their life, <affirmative> for something that [they’re] living. I'm
not here to dehumanize individuals and call them and isolate them. I have a lot of relationships with
police in the relations to, in a very transparent way, there are not. For instance, we have meetings that
we sit at the table I'm always very clear about: I don't think that policing belongs to queer spaces. I don't
think that policing, and even though I know that police gets, especially LGBT law enforcement feel like
betrayed by the fact that “I'm a police LGBT officer, I [want to] be in this space because I earn it.” But
the problem that they can't forget or separate themselves from the uniform they're wearing and what
has represented for our, it's still percent for our queer and people of color in North American particular.
Any region is different, but-- <affirmative>. What I would say is I believe that training reduce the impact
of policing in our community. I believe that building relationships can build trust. That something
happens. I can go to the police advocate for my people, and I want answers and vice versa, I think will
help the police to understand why there is fear in our community of reporting to the police. Because
when you have been called faggot by a police officer, when nobody is watching, it's your word against
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theirs. So that happens a lot of time <affirmative> on watch. But then there is no way we can prove it.
That happens everywhere all the time. And so personally speaking, and this is, I wouldn't say it's a
statement to my organization, even though I would say it's a common vision. I think collaborations with
police, it's important to, in terms of creating relationships, reducing the impact of policing in our
community. But I think the institution of policing is to be completely reinvented from zero. If we wanted
to be the force that serves the community, it doesn't protect status quo. I know some people might say
radical views, but I met police in different countries, just in North America and they were never on our
side.
Teater:
Yeah. How does local policing here compare to in Italy per se or places in Europe? [Be]cause I'm not too
familiar with their policing practices.
Disposti:
America is anomaly. The whole integration of LGBT experiences into the normalcy of the everyday life
has a good outcome, but also has developed contradictions. The fact that the police needs to show up in
our places and parade with us as a-- in North American seen as a progress, when in Italy it’[s] like, “Okay,
we don't need to hate each other, but my job is policing. It's not to lead the LGBT movements into propolicing know against policing.” Right? It's a different experience with police when I was, even though it
was a different time policing in our LGBT experience in Italy was always a (unintelligible) <affirmative>.
There were never-- nobody will ever think that we need policing in our streets with us. It's a different
comparison. Of course, I don't live in Italy now, even though I go back every year and my family's there
and they're still active. I definitely have a sense of what's going on, but <affirmative>, it's just a different
thing. People look at us and say, why you need the whole military marching with you, why you need the
whole-- and I understand the sense of the fact that LGBT people are everywhere. We [want to] show the
normalcy, that being queer is not anything that's out there, but you know, you can be a police officer
queer, a doctor, and I do like that. I do marry the cost that every price should be open to everyone that
marches. But we got in a point here in Northern America, where now police is telling us how they [want
to] show up. They are in San Diego in particular, they are dictating almost the way they should be
representing themselves when maybe they have only three, four LGBT police officer. And they're using
them as a token to show that the whole force is pro-LGBT. Then they run surveys through the UCSD
[University of California San Diego] or through the service for the Sheriff department that you realize
how much homophobic and transphobic and racist the force still is. To me, they haven't earned that
spot. I'm just gonna be frank. And I told this to chief of police from Oceanside to San Diego to Chula
Vista. I tell that in a very not threatening way, they trust me actually. And they like to talk to me because
I'm truthful. I don't beat the bush around. I'm just gonna tell I'm gonna work with you and everything
else. But I think you were invited at the table and now you think you own the table and that's okay with
me, but the police has an incredible force in America. The lobby of policing, the elected officials get
money from policing <affirmative> San Diego Police Departments extremely powerful, and they impose
their will on, or social organizations and organizing. <affirmative> To ask, for instance, going back in the
merit, I will have been happy to see the police marching maybe with their own t-shirts and shorts, you
know, so that you can tell everybody you are the San Diego Police Department. And so that your
department can be proud of you. And I think that should be alright. But the whole presence of uniform
and weapons in a inclusive parade is meant to be inclusive of everyone. Includes those that are now
super patriotic, or nationalistic, nationalist and so forth. I think it's very not conducive of a good
relationship. It's just a parade. <affirmative> I don't feel it's very-- so I'm sorry if I took you a little bit off,
but this is--
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Teater:
No, you're good. I'm right there with you.
Disposti:
It's such a current happening. Maybe people watching this many years from now, I wonder what they
will think of it, but right now I feel that we're not there. They have to earn their space. And also let's
remember talking about our region when you have a pride parade, you have people coming from all
over the county, you have people coming from LA Mesa, Fallbrook in places where policing, the impact
of policing on the streets is not as kind of transparent as it could be in any other spaces where we earn
that. Right. Like in Hillcrest <affirmative> right. We need to be mindful of the experience of our queer
people of policing in Chula Vista or other places, not just San Diego proper. What you see the police
marching, is not everyone has the same reaction, and you cannot normalize policing by just marching an
parade. You need to work every single day. So that's my-Teater:
Yeah, exactly. So, what is the center's relationship with military members of the community then?
[Be]cause I know they sort of have a kinship, but like they're different, but they're not, but they are.
Disposti:
Well. Because we cannot, I mean, I can tell you my personal stance about <affirmative> worth’s, and
army, and the military. I think we spend too much money into it when this country struggle to support
its own people that live here. Obviously, I'm not sympathetic about any choice of military that's military
related, but when it comes to LGBT experience, I have to say the immediate impact of let's say the
Marines here, the Navy on our immediate community is incomparable with policing. And what I mean,
they're not doing racial profiling here in San Diego. They're not doing-- There is not a direct impact and
<affirmative> for a city like Oceanside, which every family member has someone in the military. I would
say that also understanding the importance of what they give and how they feel it. That is their
dedication, their passion. We need to respect that. We serve a lot of veterans, a lot of military folks, but
many of these folks, LGBT usually we serve them because they struggle through the military services.
They went through <affirmative> health, sexual assault abuses that could never report from their
commanders, <affirmative> transphobia, homophobia, punishments of any kind. We support folks
because these are our people. <affirmative> It's not my place to tell them where they should go. We
meet them where they are. <affirmative> But definitely it's a different experience. I would say I met
amazing folks that actually have been a resource for the center and helping others from the army, from
some of the Marines or the many, many veterans that they are a part of our volunteer team. I'm sure
some of them might not share my views. These are personal view, again, not the center view, but
definitely we did think about building a center in a military community. You could completely subject to
it and be dictated on how to express your sentiment around military actions. You can be who you are
and supporting the queer people around the world. That's my goal as a human rights and civil rights
activist that I-- doesn't believe in any borders, or in any particular nationality, I focus on the help that my
folks need in the entire world. If the America gets in the middle of that, then I will definitely denounce it
but it's beyond the scope of the center. It's more my personal perspective. <affirmative> I think we are
all connected in so many different ways.
Teater
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<affirmative> I love that. I have a couple more questions. I'm [going to] switch gears a little bit. What
does it mean to you that the resource center has been open for eleven years now?
Disposti:
<laugh> It means a lot. I can't believe it. And I don't look back too many times, when I do I get
emotional. We had our first staff meeting after a while. I mean, in person and in the past six months
alone, we hire[d] six people. So now we're[employees] twelve. <affirmative> And just look around the
table with beautiful queer diversity around us, people with incredible (unintelligible). And I just couldn't
even envision this years ago, I knew it was coming, but now seeing these people around me, each one of
them gives so much, it brings so much to the center. I get really emotional, but I tend to look ahead of
me in terms of, there's so much we [want to] do. Just to give you an idea, this center is really small. Now
we really need that center is four or five times bigger, so we can grow and serve really serve North
County. I don't feel, we are able to say we are the North County LGBT center because we serve
everyone, but truly serving everyone from Escondido to--, it’s just not, at this moment, practically
possible. It takes resources. <affirmative> Not just volunteers and time and resources and money. I can't
imagine a queer person in Escondido, in order to be served they have to come to Oceanside. That alone
is a barrier. We encourage, even though we like to serve the whole region, that there are new
experiences that we can support them and share with them what we did so they can learn it. We're not
in competition with other spaces growing and coming up, but it's not an easy thing to do. I would say I'm
proud of what we did, of what we accomplished, but before I finish with the center experience,
whenever that is, I [want to] see a huge building, thriving with a lot of people in it. And mostly with a lot
of brand-new leaderships that can take that, toward and moving forward. That would make me happy in
so many different ways. So, yeah.
Teater:
Oh, that's so nice. During your time as an activist, and this'll be my final question, during your time as an
activist, what has brought you the most joy?
Disposti:
Oh gosh. I don't think I can single out one.
Teater:
What were some of the experiences?
Disposti:
Opening the center, the grand opening of the center. Definitely. People showed up for that dream.
Really so many, I've been so fortunate to have so many memories, but definitely the opening the center.
The meeting that we had two weeks ago, I told you looking around and see, oh my gosh, these are my
people and the staff, and the center is growing. The people coming forward after a few years of months
that visit us, and we help them and thanking us for truly-- And when I say save the life, I don't mean in
such a-- these were people struggling with their own existence. When I say save the life, I mean, it
physically not--I mean, taught them the way. Right. I don't [want to] be so pretentious of presumptions
or, we are not telling people what to do, but many people really couldn't survive without our support
that has to do with mostly believing in them. When stories like that are coming back to you, you know,
you're on the right path, are doing the right work. So many, I can't pin it down, but mostly had to do
with my community being there for my community and here at the center. So--
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Teater:
Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing with me. Is there anything else you wanted to mention
before we sign off?
Disposti:
No, it's hard to recollect now, but I'm sorry for getting through the emotions.
Teater:
Oh no, I love it all. It's perfect.
Disposti:
You know, me? Yeah. I don't shy away from that. No, thank you. Thank you for doing this work. That's
what I [want to] say that I know how important it's because we're doing an archive here at the center as
well, and we are doing the same interviews to the people that were here, the key leaders in the
communities, even prior to the opening of the center, it's a very tedious, slow process that takes years
in the making. I appreciate you and your team for even thinking about this. And for creating this record
that one day will be so helpful for people, or maybe not for people to watch. And I wish I had that when
I started the center, looking back to the stories and the voices of those that came before us, because we
always stand on the shoulder. Those that came became before us, even though there was not an LGBT
center, but, you know, yeah. That's what we got. Thank you. Thank you.
Teater:
Thank you. Well, I'm [going to] stop the recording now.
Disposti:
Perfect.
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�
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Disposti, Max. Interview transcript. April 26, 2022.
Description
An account of the resource
Max Disposti is the founder and Executive Director of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. In this interview, Max discusses his upbringing in Rome, Italy as a queer male and his experience coming to the U.S. and his quest to open the Resource Center. Max Disposti also talks about the parallels in how the LGBTQ+ community is treated in Italy in comparison to America.
Creator
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Max Disposti
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MJ Teater
Sierra Jenkins
Date
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2022-04-26
Subject
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LGBTQ+ activism
LGBTQ+ rights
North County LGBT Resource Center
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North County (San Diego County, Calif.)
Rome (Italy)
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California State University San Marcos University Library
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English
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Max Disposti
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text
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SC027-14
Activists and activism
Community history
History Department internship
Immigrant experience
LGBTQIA+ experience
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Oral Histories
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Oral History
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Interviewer
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Ryan Willis
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mark Wyland
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https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10.xml
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American politics;California government;State Assembly;California Senate;Oral history in classrooms
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6.0 Wyland, Mark. Interview, April 10, 2023 SC027-38 02:30:04 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation and was created as part of the CSUSM University Library and History Department Internship in Oral History. csusm Politics and government -- 20th century ; Politics and government -- 21st century ; School boards -- California -- Escondido ; Lumberyards -- California -- Escondido ; California. Legislature. Assembly ; California. Legislature. Senate ; International relations ; Bills, Legislative ; Legislation -- California ; Oral history American politics ; California government ; State Assembly ; California Senate ; Oral history in classrooms Mark Wyland Ryan Willis .wav WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/064306702b5e232aff51531efbfa8101.wav Other audio English 0 Family history / Upbringing / Early career Mark Wyland begins the interview by discussing his family history. His maternal grandparents had moved to San Diego in 1925 and his grandfather was an Escondido city councilman and a supervisor for North County. His grandfather, father, and uncle also began a lumber and building materials business, which is still in operation today. Wyland also explains that he grew up in Escondido and attended Escondido High School. After high school, he attended Pomona College and studied International Relations. He further explains how he later worked for the City of New York on school construction while in graduate school before returning home to join the family lumber and plywood business. He adds that he stayed with the family business for twenty years. San Diego (Calif.) ; Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; New York (NY) ; lumber and plywood business ; family business ; Ponoma College ; International Relations 0 347 The teachers who inspired Wyland Mark Wyland recounts the teachers in his life who made an impact on his upbringing. He credits many teachers from his childhood and teenage years, such as his fourth grade and eighth grade teachers, Mrs. Stevens and Mrs. Von Bergen, as well as his German teacher, Bob Maywald. Wyland later studied abroad in Germany due to his positive experience in Maywald’s class. He also credits his high school speech teacher, Cliff Summerall, for inviting him to join the debate team and sparking his interest in politics. He also briefly discusses joining the family business and the importance of solving problems in a competitive market. Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; School ; Teachers ; Fourth grade ; Eighth grade ; High school ; Study abroad programs ; Debate teams ; Family business 0 842 Managing the family business Mark Wyland reflects on how running the family business shaped him as a person. He explains how being involved in the decision-making of the business made him realize that he was analytical and wanted to solve problems, which would be later prove beneficial to him when he entered politics. Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; Lumber and plywood business ; Family business ; Problem solving ; Politics 0 1058 Semester abroad program in Germany Wyland recounts his semester abroad program in Germany when he was an undergraduate student at Pomona College. Wyland explains that he lived with a family for a month in the small town of Nördlingen. He lived with a family consisting of a husband and wife, their daughter, and their granddaughter, who was also a university student. He discusses the history of his host family, explaining how they had lived through World War I and had opposed Hitler. He then explains that he later was awarded a Fulbright scholarship to Germany after graduating with his Bachelor’s degree and spent a year there studying Germany policy. He reflects that both of these experiences in Germany, as well as the politics surrounding the Vietnam War, influenced his decision to enter into politics. Germany ; Nördlingen ; Study abroad programs ; Ponoma College ; Host family ; World War I ; Hitler ; Nazi Germany ; Vietnam War ; Politics ; Decision to enter politics 0 1683 School board race Mark Wyland explores his time running for the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board. Wyland describes the experience as “brutal” and “contentious.” He discusses incidents that happened during his time on the school board, such as a large portion of the board organizing to remove a Hispanic superintendent. He also describes campaigning to implement English education for Hispanic students in classroom curriculums during his first school board race. Escondido (Calif.) ; San Diego North County (Calif.) ; School board race ; School board ; School board politics ; Board of Education ; Escondido Union School Board ; English education curriculums ; Hispanic population 0 2124 California State Assembly race Mark Wyland discusses his time running for the California State Assembly in 2000. He reflects that the race was far more political than he had originally anticipated. Wyland describes a conflict during the race between himself and the then-assemblyman. Wyland explains that the then-assemblyman did not agree with Wyland’s previous Democratic politics and had raised money for lobbyists to go against Wyland. California State Assembly ; Politics ; Political campaign ; Primary election ; Democrats ; Republicans ; Lobbyists 0 2542 Becoming California Senator Mark Wyland discusses his time as California Senator. Wyland represented District 38 from 2006 to 2014. Wyland reflects on his early start in the Senate and how he had an interest in education reform. He also learned early on in his career that the state government is organized similar to Congress in terms of its parties, caucuses, committees, and the floor. He also explores how he found government to be much more partisan than he originally expected. He also contemplates the topic of term limits, explains the difference between state and federal laws, and discusses politicians who had abused their power. Politics ; California State Senate ; California Senator ; District 38 ; Education reform ; Organization of state government ; Partisan government ; Term limits ; State and federal laws 0 3297 The U.S. educational system Mark Wyland discusses the educational system in the United States, with an emphasis on the importance on vocational schools. He first explains the history of vocational schools, beginning with skilled apprenticeships during the Middle Ages. He also reflects on the disadvantages of the dismantling of vocational schools in the U.S., including the loss of students learning practical skills, the demoralizing of students’ drive for learning, and the increase in student loan debt. School ; Educational system ; Educational system in the U.S. ; Vocational schools ; Apprenticeships 0 4333 What makes Wyland a unique Senator Mark Wyland responds to a quote from Senator Darrell Steinberg, who referred to Wyland as a “Republican romantic.” Wyland explains that he has a great deal of respect for Steinberg and finds the quote to be flattering. Wyland also discusses the difficulty of making progress in politics and the public educating themselves in governmental matters. Politics ; Senator Darrell Steinberg ; Republicans ; Making progress in politics 0 4569 Goals as a politician Mark Wyland first reflects on the general public’s view on politics. He believes that the public does not understand politics the way they should and that many do not make informed decisions when voting. Wyland explains that it is important for the public to be critical of their government, and he provides an example of the importance of being critical of governmental spending. He also states that his goal as a politician is to provide better quality government and to help the people in becoming better informed citizens. He also states his concern over the media’s biased coverage of political matters. Politics ; Goals as a politician ; General public's view on politics ; Making informed voting decisions ; Being critical of government spending ; Media's biased coverage of politics ; Newspapers 0 5771 Objectivity in politics Mark Wyland discusses objectivity in politics. He views objectivity as an ideology, which he perceives as problematic because he believes it is too rigid of a view. Wyland explains that in his opinion, political knowledge and discussion should be more pragmatic. He also states that it is important to understand life’s complex problems and to use our power to solve them. Wyland also reflects on the importance of humility and on society coming together and respecting one another’s point-of-view. Politics ; Objectivity ; Objectivity in politics 0 6484 San Diego energy bills Mark Wyland discusses a few of the energy-related bills that he wrote. Wyland explains that one of these bills was in response to the blackout crisis of 2000 and SDG& ; E’s increased price of natural gas. The bill was eventually vetoed by Gray Davis. San Diego (Calif.) ; Energy bills ; Blackouts ; Blackout crisis ; SDG& ; E ; Public Utilities Commission ; Municipal Utility District ; Natural gas ; Gray Davis ; Politics 0 7050 Promoting oral history/ Oral history bills Mark Wyland discusses his efforts in promoting oral history in classroom curriculums. He first explains how he learned to appreciate oral history learning through his own grandfather and the grandfather from his host family in Germany and their talent for storytelling. Wyland also discusses the bills that he wrote to emphasize and encourage the use of oral history in the classroom. These bills include creating curriculums that would incorporate oral history testimonies involving World War II, the Korea and Vietnam Wars, and the history of genocide. Oral history ; History ; Politics ; Classroom curriculums ; Oral history bills ; World War II ; Korean War ; Vietnam War ; The history of Genocide 0 8078 Romanticizing history/ Closing of interview Mark Wyland discusses the issue of romanticizing history in the classroom and in American society. Wyland uses the change over time in how Indigenous and Mexican history are taught in classrooms as examples. Wyland closes the interview by stating that politicians could not do their jobs without the help and support of the public. He adds that the American people deserve to feel good about who they vote into office, even if they do not agree with every decision that they make. History ; Romanticizing history ; Indigenous history ; Mexican history ; Classroom curriculums ; Politics ; Relationship between politicians and voters 0 Oral history interview with Mark Wyland on 04/10/2023. In this interview, Wyland discusses his upbringing and family background, including his family business in Pine Tree & ; Lumber. Wyland explains his education background along with studying in Germany for a year, and how he was motivated to choose a career in politics. Wyland expanded on his career on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board, becoming a member of the California State Assembly from 2000-2006, and then being elected into the California Senate in 2006, serving until 2014. Wyland reflects on his trials and tribulations throughout the years, offering his thoughts and suggestions on the current state of American politics and how it can be improved. Wyland also speaks on K-12 school curriculum, Native American History, and the importance of Oral History being taught in the classroom. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:30.000 Hello, this is Ryan Willis, and today I am interviewing former California Senator Mark Wyland for the California State University San Marcos Library Special Collections Oral History project. Today is Monday, April 10th, 2023. The time is 2:32 PM and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Mr. Wyland, thank you so much for interviewing with me today. 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:33.000 You're very welcome, Ryan. Please call me Mark. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:55.000 You got it, Mark. Appreciate that (both laugh). So obviously you have a very rich and impressive resume when it comes to education and politics, so definitely going to get into all of that during this interview. But I want to start off by asking you about your upbringing and your family background. Because I definitely believe that's important to bring up. First off, when and where were you born? 00:00:55.000 --> 00:02:11.000 Well, I was actually born in San Diego at Mercy Hospital, which is still there. It's part of the Scripps Network now. And Escondido at the time, I'm not sure it really had a full-service hospital, but I grew up in Escondido. My maternal grandparents had moved there in 1925 and they had a business, a plumbing business. And after the war, meaning World War II, my maternal grandfather, Brian Sweet, who had been an Escondido city councilman and also a supervisor for North County, he started a business with my dad and my uncle, and it was a lumber and building material supply business, pine tree lumber. It still exists. It's not in our family, but based in Escondido. And so, I grew up there, went to Escondido High School. When here we are in San Marcos--San Marcos didn't have a high school (laughs). 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:12.000 Right. 00:02:12.000 --> 00:05:25.000 They went to Escondido. And then I went to college in Pomona College, which is in Claremont, California, where they have a group of colleges, the Claremont Colleges. I got interested in--studied International Relations, which is foreign affairs. I spent a year after college on a grant in Germany. And then I was in graduate school in New York studying to be a professor of international affairs. But I'd gone straight through and I, you know, it was kind of a time as a young man where I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. I'm not a city guy. I hated New York (laughs) because I grew up in rural Escondido, basically in an avocado grove. And so, I ended up--I got a lot out of that program--but I ended up working for the university. And then I worked for the City of New York on school construction of all things. And I was very close to my grandfather, and he wanted me to come back and join the family business. I thought I would never do that. But he had had a stroke and I was very close to him, and I was sick of New York, and I thought, “Well, I'll just interrupt the program.” You know, I can always go back, and something that was important and played out later: I wrote a master's thesis on a topic that really interested me. Basically, it was how people see the world, their worldview. And so I came back, I thought it would be here a year, and I ended up staying. And this was a business I'd worked in summers as a kid, and I'd done every job, you know, manual labor, loading lumber, driving forklifts, driving trucks. I'd done all that. And I ended up doing that for, my gosh, almost twenty years. And that also had a big impact on learning how to solve problems. And my dad, who's extraordinary, I learned a great deal from him--unfortunately, passed away fairly young, but I always had this interest in what we might call “public policy.” And I always had this interest in schools. And I had tried early on in that job, they had an opening on the high school board, not an election-appointed one. I tried to get that. I didn't get that (laugh). 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:26.000 Right. 00:05:26.000 --> 00:12:11.000 And so, it turned out there was another opening on the Escondido Union Board, which is K-8. And I applied for that and got it. And the rest is history. And we can talk about that. And I know we have questions. I would like a shout out though to a few Escondido teachers who really made a big difference. And first, my fourth-grade teacher. Believe it or not, I lived in old, it was in town then--Central School. Mrs. Stevens, who told stories about when she was living in Mexico City and married to her husband who's Mexican. Really interesting stories. And I thought, you know, that's a different culture, and that's pretty interesting. And then I had this wonderful eighth grade teacher for social studies, Mrs. Von Bergen. It didn't hurt that I had a crush on her (Willis laughs). Oh my gosh. And in eighth grade in California, you spend a lot of time on the Civil War. And again, she really piqued my curiosity because I remember learning that it wasn't just simple. It was more complicated between the North or the South. And we actually--that was the first time I had to write a term paper, which I found later, I still have. And it's, you know, it's not very well done, but it's eighth grade (Willis laughs). And I realized between what I was trying to write was--this is really interesting: the North was industrialized and the South was agricultural, and there are all these other cross currents. And then when I was a sophomore in high school, the speech teacher, Clifford Summerall, he was invited to go into a class where students were giving oral reports, and I gave one. And I was pretty good at that. So, he asked me to join their debate team, and they had tournaments. And these are national. And all kinds of speaking ; humorous speeches. I've forgotten the categories. And they had a national topic, which I don't think they do that anymore. They still have speech, but it tends to be more impromptu where you learn about a whole bunch of things and they say, what do you think about--whatever it might be? And that era was a national topic, and the topic that first--yeah, I was fifteen, a sophomore, right, was “Should we strengthen NATO?” Well, that was sixty years ago, (Willis laughs), and it's as current today as it was then. And what made it--why it had such a big impact was they gave you the materials and you had the same topic for the whole year. So, while my friends are--and I don't mean to diminish this, you have to do it, but it's, you know, they're reading chapter eight and answering the questions and the tests on Friday kind of thing--I'm learning about post-World War II and the Soviet Union and their march and to those eastern European states, all this really adult stuff. And because at a tournament, they would assign you different sides--you're for or against--so you really had to learn about the issue. And what fascinated me was: it's not that simple. There are arguments for it and against it, and you don't know for sure how it's going to work out. A lot of the people doing debate, you could tell were going to be future lawyers. You know, I had my kind of sport coat and a tie, and I had to laugh in retrospect, some of them would, you know, their kids would come in like these dark, you know, suits, and they would try all these tricks. It was about winning. But for me it was like, “What's the answer?” And then the next year, the question was, “Should we increase federal aid to education?” Again, it's as current today as it was then. And so you had to look at a lot of analyses and statistics. So Cliff Summerall gave me a gift. He's still alive, he's in his nineties. I met him on a plane from Sacramento by sitting down to him--I'd forgotten. And I thanked him in some detail. And according to his wife, he was very moved. He gave me a real gift. And then I had a couple of other iconic teachers, anyone of a certain age will remember John Georges. English teacher who had been a Marine in the South Pacific and World War II. And a German teacher, Bob Maywald, who was German and had as a teenager gotten here after the war. So those are local people that really made a difference. But--and I ended up majoring in International Relations because really of that interest. 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:12.000 Right. 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:21.000 And ended up spending the year in Germany, because I had a really good German teacher. So, when I got to college, that was pretty easy. 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:22.000 Yeah. 00:12:22.000 --> 00:13:43.000 So, I can stop there. One of the thing I do want to add, when I ended up coming back here and being in the business ; the building material supply, especially lumber and plywood, mostly for houses, it's a commodity. And it's very competitive, because, how do you say, “Well, our two by four is better than their two by four?” And so, it has to be not only the quality of the lumber, but the service and that sort of thing. And prices change really fast, and you really have to be on top of it, but you have to--it's not a business you can just let go by. And so, every day you have to know what you're selling, if there's a problem, if your competitor is undercutting you, and you have to get on it to solve the problem. Many of our competitors went under because you--and so I learned that you have to solve problems. You can't ignore them, and you better get after it. 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:44.000 Right. 00:13:44.000 --> 00:14:02.000 So, I'll just stop there. I guess I had been doing that for, I don't know, twenty years, somewhere in that neighborhood. But I wanted to do something else. I was interested in education, and that's why I went for that school board appointment. 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:16.000 Yeah, I was going to ask for the family business that anybody within your family tried to push you to stay in that line of work, or were they more open to you doing other things? 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:20.000 My dad, had he lived, would've been very encouraging, I think. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:23.000 Yeah. 00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:35.000 And I learned that his dad, who had passed away before I was born, who I thought was just a quiet engineer type, turns out he was fascinated with international affairs. 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:36.000 Oh. 00:14:36.000 --> 00:15:01.000 Would read newspapers. That was during the Roosevelt era. My--I was in the business with my cousin and I were running it, and his dad was still there, but my cousin and I were running that, and I think they thought I was crazy (both laugh). Which is what a lot of people think, you know, it's conflict and-- 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:02.000 Yeah. 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:06.000 It's thankless, which it pretty much is. 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:17.000 (laughs) Right, I was going to say, pretty much what it sounds like. So, but it really sounds like that business really helped shape who you became and it really helped you when it came to getting into politics. 00:15:17.000 --> 00:16:07.000 Yeah. What it did was, I always had this analytical bent and, you know, to go from college and think about a PhD and all that, you have to be very analytical. But what it added was: you better identify a problem and you better fix it, because if you wait it was very unforgiving. You know, there are businesses where, you know, it's just steady. And, and it wasn't like that. When I started out there were probably twenty lumber yards in San Diego County, and when we finally sold it in early 2000s there were basically two. 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:08.000 Right. 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:18.000 So. And so when I got into government, I wanted to solve problems, I wanted to analyze them and let's fix them. 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:19.000 Right. 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:21.000 That's kind of hard to do (laughs). 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:28.000 Yeah. Right. Were you involved at all in that decision to sell the family business? 00:16:28.000 --> 00:17:36.000 Yeah, it was hard because, you know, the older generation who passed away, my cousin and I were running it, we--each of us had a sister who were not involved. And it's hard because he and I had grown up doing it. And our sisters, they weren't living locally, and they were all in favor of it. And this is very common in family businesses. You get different interests. So, but I was already in government, in the legislature, and he was frustrated and I had to say, “You're the guy there,” you know? So. But I actually think ultimately, actually, he regretted it. On the other hand, when it's a family business and you don't have people to hand it down to, and we had daughters and who--which is not a problem--but they weren't interested in it. 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:37.000 Right. 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:38.000 So. 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:49.000 Right. Gotcha. So, going back, you said you spent a year in Germany. What was that experience like for you? 00:17:49.000 --> 00:20:07.000 Pomona had a semester abroad program. And in that program--which I think is the best way to do it, but it, these programs don't exist--you lived with a family for a month, and I happened to live with a family in southern Germany, a little town, Nördlingen, a little town in Bavaria. And I lived in a family that was the age of my grandparents and their daughter and their granddaughter, who was in her early twenties and was at the university. And it turns out that they had lived through World War I, he was in World War I, but never fought, but in the military ; went through hyperinflation in Germany ; the rise of Hitler, whom he strongly opposed. And he was working in the local government of this town, and they said, “Well, if you're working here, you have to sign up to join the Nazi party.” And it almost brings tears to my eyes. He wouldn't do it. And I thought so many times, you know, it's so easy for us in this country to say, “Well, they should do this or that.” And I've often wondered, would I have had the courage? All it was was signing a paper, they weren't making him do anything. Would I really have had the courage of my conviction? But he did. And it was during the war, and so they made him--Germany had taken over Czechoslovakia, so they made him move and go to Czechoslovakia. I mean, they kind of--that was his punishment. And he was there until the very end of the war. When they came back basically on a wagon, walking, he had lost so much weight, he said people he'd grown up with didn't recognize him. 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:08.000 Wow. 00:20:08.000 --> 00:22:15.000 So, and I just really got along with them. And they had had a son who was drafted at the end of the war into the German military. He was only sixteen (years old). They were taking kids. And the last time they saw him, they argued about the war because they were against the war. They were against Hitler. And, whatever people may think, there were plenty who didn't like Hitler. And they argued and their son said, “Well, our lieutenant tells us that Führer has this new weapon and we're going to win.” He was a kid, right. Sixteen. And that was the last time they saw him. He was stationed near Berlin, and the Russians came in and, and so I think part of it was here was this young guy, I was only like nineteen or twenty (years old), and I think we got along and I think it was almost like here was their son that they lost. So we became really close. So that was my junior year. And then my senior year, my mentor--who later became famous--he had had a Fulbright, which was a scholarship, to Germany. And he said, “Mark, you should apply for this.” So I did. And lo and behold, I got it (laughs). So it was kind of a rough year. Because, again, I was graduated and I still didn't know what I wanted to do, but, so I spent the year in Germany studying German foreign policy. And that's one of the reasons I know so much about, a lot about Germany and the society and the culture and all that sort of thing. 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:34.000 Right, right. That's fascinating. Thank you for sharing that. So, it sounds like, as far as what motivated you or pushed you in the direction of politics, a lot of it sounds like it was self-interest to begin with, but I know you also mentioned that the Vietnam War had a huge influence as well. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that? 00:22:34.000 --> 00:23:39.000 It did. I was of that era, which is only probably about five or six, seven years. And they, we had the draft which they ended, I think 1973 or something like that. And I was never in the service, but it affected the whole country, families, and it affected all the young men. And that's what I, what I ended up studying and writing about, and I'm still interested in the same thing, is: how people saw the world. How do you, in international affairs, the thing that's interesting to me is everyone wants peace, peace and prosperity, all over the world. That's what people want. 00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:41.000 Yep. 00:23:41.000 --> 00:28:03.000 And how did the decisions come about to say we need to engage militarily? And I have enormous respect for all those who fought there. And there are people from Escondido whose names are not along the wall in Washington, but in the park around the state capitol, there is a monument with the names of every Californian who was killed there. It's kind of emotional. Oscar Cruz, I'd grown up with Oscar Cruz ; he's on that wall. And I've forgotten his first name. One of the Durbin boys, I didn't know him, but they were a well-known family in Escondido, the Durbins. And I think what happened was we had kind of a Cold War mentality, which was: if you--they remembered so clearly what happened, the lesson that all those people make in those policies. You had Lyndon Johnson, you had (David) Dean Rust, the Secretary of State, you had McNamara, Secretary of Defense, you had the National Security Advisor McGeorge Bundy. All of them were of the era where they had grown up in the ‘20s and then the Depression, and went from the Depression into World War II. And they knew the cost and they had lost people. And so, the lesson was the lesson of--and, I can't recall the British politician's name who earned peace in our time in Munich--and the lesson was just like, from Hitler, you have to fight them. You can't let them gain. And it's really what's playing out right now, even though it's not our people there, but in Ukraine with Russia. And I didn't think that lesson applied very well to Vietnam. But what I wrote about was Dean Rusk, who was Secretary of State, and all the different elements of his worldview. And what I think happens to people in general is you get a kind of a take on something. And pretty soon, well, that's just the way it is. You know, if I am, I could be a doctor--and, you know, there are these debates now about diets, for example, and you get--you know, these are smart, highly trained people, and they have, “Well, this is what you should eat or not eat,” or whatever it might be. And it's the same thing with solving all the problems that we have. And I worked a lot on education. “Well, this is what you do.” If you, if you want to teach, make sure English learners, and we have a lot of them in California who speak a different language at home. “If you want to make sure they learn English, this is the way you do.” And what I learned through those experiences is you can have some ideas, but take in new information and make sure that--and always be open. And in international affairs, you make decisions, but you don't know how they're going to turn out. And that's part of the interest and the tragedy of it. So, in the case of Vietnam--and I identified a dozen, maybe twenty different aspects of the worldview, how they saw things. And I don't think they really had thought it all through. 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:38.000 Right. I know in the short amount of time in getting to know you, Mark, you are extremely passionate about education. And you were a member of the California State Assembly, and you served on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board. You told me essentially that school board politics were just plain ugly. And that's putting it extremely lightly. What made school board politics just so ruthless? 00:28:38.000 --> 00:32:04.000 It was brutal. Brutal. Well, later on, when I represented half a million people in the (California State) Assembly and later on in the (State) Senate, a million people, which is more than a member of Congress, I dealt with many different school districts and cities. And what I learned about local government: they can vary greatly. You can have one city where everything is smooth. The city council, a school board, and you cross the line, and the city council and the school board are contentious. And at that point, on the Escondido Board, it was very contentious. And they had hired a new superintendent who was Hispanic. And then I think the district was probably two-thirds Hispanic. Now, it's probably at least three-quarters. And many, maybe most, came to school with either imperfect or no English. And they had hired this guy, but there was a group that opposed him. And they were organized and included some of the administrators and some of the people opposed me because I was appointed. And they thought their person was robbed. And it was very organized. And they had--it was organized politically to get rid of him. And we would have these meetings, you know, the state legislature, few people know this, but if you want to show up on a bill and you show up in the committee on the day a bill is heard, almost always, I mean, rarely it's not, they will ask, “Is there anyone else who wants to testify on this bill?” You can go right up there and testify. You can lobby all the people, send them letters, meet with them. But almost no one does it. But when it's in local government, they do. And we had some board meetings that, well, they were quite raucous. And I'll never forget one (laughs) where this--she came up and she wasn't--she had made some good points, and she had, and there's no dias. It was just same level. We're just behind the table. And she said, “I've got--you all deserve pink slips.” And she had little pink pieces of paper. And that was what you gave someone--you used to get that if you're going to get fired or laid off. And she plunked down in front of us a pink piece of paper saying, “You're fired.” You know, I can laugh about it, but it was awfully serious. And ultimately for a variety of other reasons we decided to part with that superintendent. But there were people working for the district who unfairly, I thought, suffered. And because they were seen as, you know, on the wrong side. 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:11.000 Right. Did that at least prepare you though, for the next step in your career? Which we're going to get to next as far as— 00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:12.000 No. 00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:13.000 Being elected into the Senate? 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:17.000 No, because I couldn't believe it would be like that. 00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:18.000 Gotcha. 00:32:18.000 --> 00:35:22.000 I couldn't believe. But it was. And I'll tell you one funny story which illustrates it. I had a very contentious election. And this is important: we had two newspapers. This ties right into how we solve the problem of people feeling better about the government. We had The San Diego Union Tribune, and we had the North County Times, and they were robust, and they covered--The San Diego Union Tribune had, just on the editorial side, in addition to reporters, had a full-time editorial guy covering North County. And the North County Times did a great job. They covered school board meetings. They would editorialize about when we had these contentions about the school board. They had columnists who wrote about the school board. And people read the paper and they got a lot of information. And that's unfortunately no longer the case. So, what I--I had been very interested in this problem of Hispanic students learning English, because I knew their futures and the future of the state--you know, there are the immigration debates--but the fact is they were here. And I knew that their future and the future of the state depended upon them acculturating and being able to get good jobs, et cetera. So, I thought, “This can't be that hard.” And I thought--it's very naïve--I thought, “Escondido can be a model for the whole state.” Because it's small enough we can fix this. And that's kind of the business guy’s approach. Here's a problem, we need to jump in there and fix it. And it turns out in education, there are all these ideologies about how you teach reading and how you teach math. The business approach, which is, I think most people’s, is more pragmatic: I don't care. Let's just see what works. Well, it turned out, with all this contention, it was really hard. And I thought, and these mandatory tests were coming down from the state--which I thought were actually helpful--and I thought, “That's the place to fix this.” And that race was also brutal, that first race. But I don't need to, unless you want to, to get into it (laughs). 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:24.000 (laughs) It's up to you. 00:35:24.000 --> 00:40:12.000 Well, I--you know, I ended up leaving graduate school with a master's and not going back for the PhD, but I think I got a PhD in practical politics. I was pretty naive. You know what, I'll tell you a little bit about that race, a little about that first year, and then maybe we can pause and figure out where you want to go next. I never--first of all, it was a primary. Primary of 2000 and the primary of 2000--and I was a Republican who had been a Democrat. And again, it was pragmatism. I just ended up agreeing with more of the Republican policies and fewer of the Democratic. But it was always pragmatic. What's the best answer to the problem? So, in that time--it's not the same now--but in that time, North County, and that's the district is, oh, 450--475,000 people. A congressional (district) then was around, I think 700,000 just to give--and a state senate (district) was just short of a million. And it was most of North County, big chunk of North County. And it was very conservative. So, whoever won the Republican primary was probably going to win the general election. So, I ended up starting out with a--I got some help to do this. You have to get help, really. And through that--consultant is what they call them. I ended up hiring a campaign manager who turned out to be a crook, a straight up crook! But he hadn't vetted him enough. So (laughs), so then, we--and there were seven or eight people in the race, which actually makes it easier because all you need is a plurality, not a majority. So, I ended up--that consultant, we parted ways and I got a very capable consultant. Some states just have a campaign manager--I had a consultant and a manager--and they design the race. And a key part of it is communication by mail. When you see TV ads, that's really expensive, and only a few campaigns have the money to do that. Same thing with radio. And in that era radio was going strong. So, you had radio, TV, ads, and mail. And so we were going along with issues that we thought were helpful. One's kind of a profile where you introduced the person. I was still reasonably well known in Escondido. They were still old guard. My family had been there forever. And I was at that point, president of the school board. And then, the then-assemblyman who was termed out, he didn't want me. He liked control. And he had picked someone that he thought he could control. So he was against me, which is hard because he raised money from lobbyists to go against me. And he discovered that when I was a Democrat, I had given money to Democrats. I'd given money to Al Gore in 1988. Well, in a primary you get the most intense voters. So having given money to Al Gore, to a good loyal Republican would be like in a Democratic race, having given money to Trump or Bush when they want Obama, it's like (Willis laughs) this can't work! 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:13.000 Yeah. 00:40:13.000 --> 00:41:44.000 And you can't explain in a short campaign, you can't--the explanation was at that point--and I still believe now, you need two strong parties, which are reasonable. Well, Al Gore in 1988, I thought was pretty reasonable. I was a Republican, but I also wanted a reasonable Democrat. And he was running as a moderate Southern Democrat (laughs). Well, you can't explain that to people because it's ten, twelve years later. And by then he had changed. So anyway, it cut down my margin and I managed to squeak out a victory. Only because they--if they'd had more money, and money does play, people hate it, but it's like marketing. It's like, if you represent Coca-Cola and I've got “New Great Coke,” and you have a million dollars of marketing and name ID, and everyone likes Coke, and I've got a little amount to say, “Hey, this new stuff is really good,” it doesn't matter. And so they didn't have enough, and I squeaked it out. I think I got less than twenty percent of the vote. 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:45.000 Oh, wow. 00:41:45.000 --> 00:42:02.000 I barely made it. And there was another guy on that race who was the mayor of Encinitas, Jim Bond. And he was on the ballot as James Bond. And the James Bond movie had just come out like few months before. 00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:04.000 Oh man. 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:09.000 (laughs) And I, so I just barely squeaked it out. 00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:10.000 Gotcha. 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:22.000 And I was not prepared. It was intensely political, more than I expected, but I wasn't really prepared for it. 00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:40.000 That's fascinating. So as far as the Senate, you represented District 38 from 2006 to 2014. Is that correct? (Wyland nods) So what was that moment like when you got into the Senate? Do you remember how you felt? 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:44.000 Well, yeah. Let me give you, let me go back a little bit. 00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:45.000 Yeah. 00:42:45.000 --> 00:49:26.000 Because I could talk about growing up in Escondido in that era for a long time, but we've got hundreds, if not thousands of my era, who can tell you that story. This is what's a little different. So, when I got to the Assembly, a friend of mine in the Assembly, but he had been there, I was new--later, a friend of mine in the Senate (Tony Strickland), now the Mayor of Huntington Beach, he came to meet me and we, he tells this story, which is true, and he said, “Well, Mark, what are your interests?” And I said, “Education.” And he kind of chuckled and said, “Well, what about education?” And I said, well, I say it was a five-point plan. He says, it was like a ten-point plan that I said, “I've got this plan.” And he started to laugh and he said, “You don't understand. Education is controlled by the Teacher's Union. And whatever they say goes.” And I did say “Yes, but they haven't seen the power of my ideas.” I used that phrase, “The power of my ideas.” Where upon Tony, Tony Strickland, he just started rolling on the floor laughing because he realized I had no idea how it worked. And what I learned was, local government is very different. Once you get in state government, it's just like, organized like Congress. There's parties, there's caucuses, legislative committees, floor--it's set up like that. And I always thought, you know, I'd been a Democrat. Everyone wants the same thing. Good jobs. Well, it--there are party differences. Not everything. Maybe half of the bills pass, everyone votes, which people don't understand enough of. It's not people like that all the time. You have to work together in the same building. But I did find it was much more partisan than I had expected. You know, “Our interest group says this, so that's how we're voting. Our interest group says this, so that's how we're voting.” So much so. It's a two-year session in the Assembly. So I ran in 2000, served in 2001, came back for my second year in 2002. And I'll never forget going into the basement of the building and then getting in the elevator to go up to my office. And my heart literally sank. It's a sensation I had never had. And I thought, “I hate this. I cannot keep doing this. I worked so hard to get this. I just hate this.” We aren't trying to solve problems. It's just the partisan--and some people in these bodies are very--there's a range of partisanship. Some are very partisan, some (unintelligible), but what happened that year is I happened to have a chief of staff who really understood politics and how politics works. And he also was, he'd probably deny it, but he was an amateur historian and they didn't have kids yet. And we would spend probably an hour, hour and a half, after work every night talking about history and Vietnam and all these things. And I learned about politics and got more engaged in politics, because I was ready to quit. So that's how that happened. And then in 2006, the Senator who had held that seat, Bill Morrow, he was retiring because of term limits. But before then, around 2005, there was a congressman here, Duke Cunningham, Randy “Duke” Cunningham, North County. And this is uncommon. I know a lot of people think it's common, it's uncommon: he was fraudulently selling his vote. He was on a relevant committee, appropriations for defense. And he had a contractor that basically, “If you give me this much money, I'll make sure you get this contract.” And I really want to emphasize as much as people think, “Oh, it's all about money, they're crooked.” No, they really aren't. And long and short of it is he was forced out. And a lot of people were saying, “Well, you need to run for that seat.” Which many people have told me, I would've pretty much walked into. But it was an identity crisis, a midlife crisis, because we'd sold our business. And I thought, “Well, if I don't win, what am I going to do?” And plus, my interest in education, that's really a state issue. They will talk about education at the federal level. The reality is the federal government has very little to do with education. It's primarily local and state. Long and short of that is I decided to stay with the state. And you know, sometimes gone back--think well, I should have done that. But I stayed with the state, and I walked into the seat because my potential opponents were running for the congressional seat. So, I walked in. 00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:28.000 Yeah. 00:49:28.000 --> 00:51:08.000 And the Senate is different from the Assembly, just like the United States Senate is different from Congress. But it took me a little adjustment because there's a new group of people. But there's only forty. So the United States Senate is a hundred, and you really get to know those people. So I continued, I worked on a lot of different things, but education was a key part. And then it's four years. So the reelect was 2010, and I almost quit then. I only told my family, I didn't tell anyone else because if you say you're leaving, it's--you're a lame duck. It's a mad rush. And I just thought, it's so hard to get--so hard to make this better. And I had, and we can talk about them, things I worked on. And it's, to me, they were so obvious. And it's not because of malice or anything, it's just change, even positive change, it's just hard to get people--especially if it's different than what they're accustomed to. But ultimately, I did run again and so I stayed there until 2014. 00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:13.000 Right. And then you hit, you had hit your term limit at 2014, correct? 00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:14.000 Right. 00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:20.000 If you had the ability to continue on, would you have or would you have gone now regardless? 00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:40.000 That's a really good question. I think I might've done one more term. I think, well, I'm idealistic and you read what the Senate leader said about me. 00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:41.000 Yes. I wanted to get to that. 00:51:41.000 --> 00:52:56.000 I keep thinking there's got to be a way, (both laugh) you know, there's just got to be a way. So, I might've done one more term. I think something that's very common with people of my age. So, I'm seventy-six now, and we think of retirement depending somewhere in the sixties. It can be early or young sixties or later. But from my friends, I would say a significant percentage want to keep working. Maybe they'd (work) not as much or as intensely, but there's kind of a desire to contribute. And I'm still on a--I'm emeritus now--but I ended up along that period of time being involved with Pomona, the alumni group, and then the Pomona Board. And I'm emeritus now, and they allow me to attend meetings and talk. So, I would like to have done more. 00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:04.000 Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I could tell you had that ambition, even when you thought about quitting, you were like, “No, there's more to be done. I know I can make a difference.” 00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:33.000 Yeah. And one of the things, I worked on a--I worked on a lot of things in education, but because of that time in Germany and Europe, I really--no system is perfect, but Americans don't know enough about how Europeans do things. And it's frustrating when people kind of knock Europe. They're our cousins (laughs). 00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:34.000 Yeah. 00:53:34.000 --> 00:54:57.000 We, you know, our society and culture and our government to some extent comes from that tradition. And I think it's important, not necessarily to copy, but well, how do they do this? Well, how do they do this? And in education it's not perfect, but they have one system that works really well, and that's apprenticeships. I worked on that. And there are misconceptions about that. And Americans, Americans will say things like, “Well, yeah, you know, plumbers make a lot of money.” And by the way, my grandfather was a plumber. That was his first business. So, I'm a--you know, I worked with those folks when I was in the lumber business and I did that work when I was--but apprenticeships are everything! Everything. Bankers are--start off as apprentices, realtors, insurance people, people managing resorts. Probably eighty, eighty-five percent of the jobs are various types of apprenticeships. And they give you training. And then if you have a facility and you're pretty good at, they give you more training. And the sky's the limit. And for a lot of reasons I thought we needed to develop more of that. 00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:21.000 Yeah, I completely agree. I know we discussed that in our pre-interview, how the United States is pretty much completely different than all the other countries out there. They have that focus of, “Hey, let's do an apprenticeship.” We have vocational schools. Of course we do have vocational schools here in the U.S. but we don't seem to put as much emphasis on them. Why do you think that is? 00:55:21.000 --> 00:58:12.000 Well, I'll tell you what the history is. First, Europe. Europe, starting in the Middle Ages developed guilds. Weavers, obviously technology moved beyond the people who wove, did weaving of cloth. And there was a great deal of respect. So, if someone was skilled at this ; a goldsmith, a baker, whatever it was, there was appreciation for that skill. And once the university got started, and they had medieval, you know, first in the early Dark Ages, it was in the monasteries. But then when universities got started, they were very old. But the modern university came out of Germany. They didn't have science and engineering. That was not common. It's all, it all started in Germany. Even in things like theology and archeology and all those things. And the same thing with all these various other jobs. And they were accustomed to, if you have a certificate, you really--there's a lot of respect. I think what happened in America, I mean it's a longer story, but the short of it is we had those, and we had in California, all the high schools were known as comprehensive high schools. So you didn't have a separate vocational school. So every high school--it was same at Escondido, same for all the high schools--you had a whole range. You had courses for people who were for sure going to go to college, those who weren't sure, and a lot of vocational courses. But there was not, it was sort of like, well, college somehow is like the ideal. But those vocational courses were great because there were a lot of great boys, and boys in particular, who didn't want to sit there and listen to a teacher talk all--they wanted to do things. And we had many agricultural classes, we had--before computer aided design, you could take four years of drafting. You had machine shop, you had auto shop. Well, it's not like they became auto mechanics. They learned practical engineering. 00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:13.000 Yeah. 00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:29.000 I mean, in auto shop they learned how machinery works. They learned a lot of physics. They learned the chemistry of combined--they learned all those things. And so, they could sit through the boring class because they had their cool project they were working on. 00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:32.000 Yeah. 00:58:32.000 --> 00:59:27.000 I think it was unintentional but misguided that they dismantled that because it was driven by misguided administrators who thought, “Well we need to just, it needs to be all college.” College doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. They will use the word, they don't have it. It's an American invention. And they don't understand it. And even in some cases, like in Spanish, there's “colegio,” which it translated to college. It's not, it's more like a high school. And in Germany, if you use the word “high school,” which in German is “Schule” (technische Schule), we think high school, “Schule” is like a technical university. It's called a technical high school. 00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:28.000 I see. 00:59:28.000 --> 01:00:27.000 And so, there's all this misunderstanding. But what we did was, the message became for those young people who weren't academically inclined--but are very capable and smart--the message was, “Well, unless you want to do this college thing, you know, you're not really, yeah, it's not so great, you know, if you have to do that.” That's so completely misguided. And so you get right here at San Marcos High School down the road--I drove by today because of this traffic mess--I had a buddy who was the soccer coach there, and he told me one day, he said a bunch of his kids came to him and said, “Coach, they're closing the machine shop.” And the kids said, “We only come to school to play soccer and for machine shop.” 01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:28.000 Yeah. 01:00:28.000 --> 01:01:17.000 There's a lot of great healthy--it applies to girls and women too, but in a different way--healthy boys who--they, just, they're not the academically inclined. But to give you an illustration with machinery--and I've been in the factory in Switzerland where they make high-end machinery--you can start out as a machinist and end up as a mechanical engineer. And they train you and they train you. And so, I think the combination of this misguided notion that everyone has to go to college, we end up where we are. 01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:18.000 Right. 01:01:18.000 --> 01:02:44.000 And then we end up with a problem of how do you finance it? The biggest debt we have in this country outside of home mortgages, it's not auto loans, it's not credit card. It's student loans! It's over a trillion dollars. Yesterday the brother of my niece's husband, I may have been telling you, he's moved out here. He's a chiropractor. He has an outrageous student loans. That doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. They have this, the system is stripped down. But if he were in one of those other--let's just take the European countries--he might have a small loan, but it'd be very small. And it's not just higher taxes, it's because the system is different. So I did lots of work and lots of bills. You know, you have to take a slice of it. So, one of them, for example, was that every school district had to have a council that advises them and builds connections between various industries and the kids. So, that's my pitch. And if you survey Americans, they agree. 01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:47.000 Right. 01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:55.000 But it's really hard to make those changes in the school. 01:02:55.000 --> 01:03:09.000 We're forcing a lot of these kids to just have to figure it out on their own. Because a lot of them, when they're going through the K-12 system, they're like, “Well, this isn't for me. I already know this.” But especially once you get to high school, it's all about college prep, college prep. 01:03:09.000 --> 01:03:10.000 Right. 01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:12.000 Taking these tests. 01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:13.000 Right. 01:03:13.000 --> 01:03:22.000 And I know for me, when I was going through high school, that was demoralizing because I was never a good test taker to begin with. I was never good at math. 01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:23.000 Right. 01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:24.000 Never good at science. 01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:25.000 Right. 01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:28.000 And they put so much emphasis on these tests. 01:03:28.000 --> 01:03:29.000 Right. 01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:31.000 And if you don't do well on them, you feel like a failure. 01:03:31.000 --> 01:03:32.000 Exactly. 01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:34.000 And you’re not smart. And that’s not true. 01:03:34.000 --> 01:06:21.000 That's what I'm talking about. And you know, I don't want to leave the young women out. And women probably understand that better. And I'll give you an example though with young women, two of them. But I think with boys in particular, I'm going to start saying controversial stuff (Willis laughs). I think boys are wired to go out and do stuff. They're just like, solve a problem. you know, hunt, you know, (laughs) just, and I think I was lucky because I was--things came easily enough to me. A lot of school I didn't like. But it came easily enough that just like with German, it came easy, so it wasn't that hard. But, and so that's the problem. It's demoralizing. And they wonder why there's such a dropout rate. And they--why the use of drugs and all this stuff is a--particularly younger males. You need to be validated, like you're making a contribution. And in these other countries, they have that. Now, one of the things that a lot of Americans don't like, they think, well then you're at a young age, you don't know what you want to do. And you're plugged into something. It's not that simple. I'll give you an example. Young woman who's trained and you start fifteen, sixteen, where you're going to school three days a week and then three afternoons a week and two full days as an example, you're in the business. So, she was trained in an auto dealership. First off, you're paid. So, you're sixteen. It's not a lot of money, but you're paid for that. And you learn all these skills. A lot of older people might say, “Wow, they don't even know how to answer the phone.” You learn all those skills. You learn how to write a business letter. You learn if the manufacturer sends a letter about a defect or something, you learn how to understand it, how to respond. You learn the economics of it. Well, our salesman paid a commission. How does that work? Inventory. How do we do that? By the time she's nineteen, she's ready to go. She understands that business backwards and forwards. But she doesn't have to say, “Well, my career, the rest of my life is doing that.” She's got all kinds of skill sets that you can go all sorts of places. 01:06:21.000 --> 01:06:22.000 Exactly. 01:06:22.000 --> 01:08:01.000 Nursing, I worked hard on nursing. We have so many--mostly young women, a few young men--who would be great in every aspect of healthcare. And what do we do? All we do is make it hard. All we do is make it hard. And we made it worse. It used to be in an earlier era, nursing schools were affiliated with hospitals. And it was a combination of hands-on and classroom. So, if you applied to nursing school, and they had dormitories, you know, it's after a high school and a combined, classroom and clinical. So, you know, after six months, if you couldn't stand the sight of blood, you learned that and you didn't have to continue. And you're working all the time in a clinical setting. Plus learning the science. Well then we decided we have to upgrade it--has to more time in the classroom. Well, here's what happens. Whether it's at Palomar (College), and CSUSM’s (California State University, San Marcos) doing a pretty good job, I will guarantee you the freshman class comes in and there will be many times more kids who want to go into that. Well, we don't have the slots. And in those other countries, you can get that slot and you can be the most sophisticated OR nurse and you've done this and you can do it. And then you, if you want to, you move up. If you don't want to, you go into something else. 01:08:01.000 --> 01:08:02.000 Right. 01:08:02.000 --> 01:08:14.000 So, the part of the reason I'm so passionate about it is it's horrible to see these young people discouraged or demoralized. We need them (laughs). 01:08:14.000 --> 01:08:16.000 Right. That's our future. 01:08:16.000 --> 01:10:31.000 And, and I totally understand why young women will come from training in another country. I totally get it. They get here, it's their lives go up. But what about our young women? And some of them are coming from difficult backgrounds and all they need is some assistance. A little more time. And they'll be great. And instead, you talk about spending money? Two friends of mine had wives who were nurses. Each of them went to the four-year undergraduate (school). Liberal arts. It's got its place. I'm a beneficiary of it. It's got its place. But then after that, and all the money, money society spent, money they spent, loans. Then they have all this intense nursing training, and then we don't have enough opportunities. So, and one of my doctors--you get to my age, you're in doctor's offices all the time and--meet this young man. He wants to be a PA, physician's assistant. Well, guess what? There are only a few programs, one's at UC Davis (University of California, Davis). I know that, because buddy of mine was a professor there. Why don't we have that? Every state school should have that! Because the people who are going to be treating people more and more are going to be physician's assistants and nurse practitioners. And let's talk about doctors. We're--there's now a shortage around here. Because there's a lot more of us in my baby boomer era. What's the limit? The limit is why--you tell me why the University of California, you can get a PhD. I don't mean to pick on them (Willis laughs). I love the UC, but why do we really want an administration that's practically as big as the student body? And I read the other day, Stanford's administration has more people than they do students. 01:10:31.000 --> 01:10:32.000 Oh, wow. 01:10:32.000 --> 01:11:55.000 And all the data show these administrations keep growing. And how come we don't have expanded medical schools? In 20--I think it was 2010 or 2012, we had a new senator from Riverside. And I was talking to him and I said, “What are you interested in?” He said, “My number one goal is to expand the medical school at UC Riverside (University of California, Riverside).” And it was kind of the reverse of what my friend Tony had done years before I chuckled and said, “That's not going to happen.” “Well, we need it.” I said, “You're right. And I will help you. And I'm on the budget subcommittee for education. I'm on the education committee, I will help you. But you just need to understand, when you come across that huge bureaucracy and you say, “Does every campus have to be able to grant a PhD in medieval French literature at every campus? Or should we expand the medical school?” And maybe we give them an incentive. If they agree to work in underserved communities for a few years, why don't we make it free? It should be free. 01:11:55.000 --> 01:11:56.000 Yes. 01:11:56.000 --> 01:12:07.000 Why shouldn't they be graduating and saying, you know, “I love family practice, but I'm going to make a lot more money doing this.” It's crazy. 01:12:07.000 --> 01:12:09.000 Yeah. No, I'm right there with you. 01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:10.000 I'm sorry, Ryan. I get wound up. 01:12:10.000 --> 01:12:11.000 No (laughs). 01:12:11.000 --> 01:12:12.000 It brings it all back. 01:12:12.000 --> 01:12:58.000 No, it's a great conversation. I feel like we could talk about it for hours, but I did want to go back to your time in the Senate, near the end, in particular, when you had to retire. I want to talk about something a little bit more positive. Senator Darrell Steinberg, who I know you have a lot of respect for, he was quoted in saying, “Senator Wyland, I see you as the Republican romantic. You are somebody who constantly strives to make the world what it should be instead of what it is. You are a special member of the Senate, partly because you are unique.” How does that quote make you feel, first off? And in your opinion, what made you unique? 01:12:58.000 --> 01:14:00.000 Well, first of all, some Republicans say, “What do you mean, he is a Democrat!” Look, I have a lot of respect for Darrell. And in some ways you get to know people better even than their friends and family do. Because he really knew me. He'd seen me, you're working together all the time. We'd gone on a trip to Switzerland and Germany to look at these programs. And so I think it's one of the nicest compliments. There were some others in those tributes I really appreciated because I think he did understand. And I plead guilty. He's right. I can't--I'm pragmatic, but I can't, just can't say, “Well, that's the way it is. We can't fix it.” I keep thinking, “You know, we got to--we can make this better (laughs).” 01:14:00.000 --> 01:14:01.000 Yeah. 01:14:01.000 --> 01:16:09.000 So, it made me--it first of all blew me away because every year when people retire, it's every election year, there's tributes. There's only few retiring, and there's a session where people speak about the member. And I was totally unprepared. From all the comments, I just, I was completely unprepared. So, it was a wonderful compliment. The downside of it is, and it's same thing in that column that Dan Walters wrote, well, that's great, but how do you make progress? (Both laugh) You know, it's--progress is tough and it's not--when I talk about these things, I'm optimistic. I do see the glass as half full. It's kind of a--I have a pretty high standard, and I think we just have to keep working at these things. And something that's really important. People are so cynical about politicians: it's not that easy. And at some point I would like to talk a little bit about my project because the biggest challenge is people know less. And so when they know less, it's harder to hold government accountable. And it's not their fault. I have friends who say, “Well, they're just lazy. They could find it on the internet.” It's really hard. It needs to be easy to understand how well you're being governed. But I'll tell you that and some of those other comments, especially from the other side, the other side, the other party, were--I really appreciate it. 01:16:09.000 --> 01:16:26.000 Yeah, I imagine. So that kind of is a great segue onto the next thing I wanted to address, which is something you mentioned to me is that the general public does not understand politics the way that they should. Can you elaborate on that? 01:16:26.000 --> 01:23:42.000 Yeah, Ryan, there's a lot of research that would illustrate this better. But my--here's my direct experience. When I first ran in 2000 and for several years after that, most people got a print newspaper. It wasn't that expensive. And most people when they established a household or got in their twenties or mid-twenties, got a paper. And the papers did a good job at reporting on what government was doing. And most of the reporting was fairly, I would say, fairly objective. They had different editorial policies. You know, one may be more conservative, one more liberal, but even then, that was within a group. And I say this as a guy started reading The New York Times when I lived in New York, so I'm kind of a newspaper addict. And the North County Times would publish probably--they'd have two pages full of letters. So, people felt they could weigh in and people would read the letters and respond. And for a whole bunch of reasons, the economics change, the advent of the internet and social media, less advertising, newspapers are dying. The North County Times (is) no more. So, the entire big chunk of North County is--there's some coverage and they try in The Coast News. And there's some--a little bit in the Solana Beach, maybe a little bit North, Encinitas-Del Mar area. But if you're living in San Marcos or Escondido, it's a news desert. How do you know when it comes time to vote for a city council person or a school board person, or a Palomar College trustee? How do you know? And so, I think the way to change this and to change some of the anger that we have and the demonization where our side's good, the other side's evil--and you know, I'm a Republican, but I see this on both sides. And they'll take the most outrageous person on the other side. And all the outrageous things they say, well, look like if you take Congress, and we'd be the same thing if they cover the state. That's a lot of people. There's always going to be some people who (laughs) you know, who will say outrageous things, some of them purposely because of the coverage. So, I think the solution of my project, I call it civic knowledge, it could be civic information, it could be any name is--I want a way for someone, and it has to be partly on the internet to say, “How much are we spending in the state? I read there's a twenty-five-billion-dollar deficit. Where's the money going? Where'd it come from?” And it becomes so common as you as like googling. And there it is. Historically, easy. It's not that complicated with pie charts and color. Holy cow. I had no idea that half of the money we're spending on is education. And by the way, are we measuring--are these kids learning to read? What skills do they have? How come thirty years ago we spent a huge amount on transportation and now we're not spending any? No wonder we have all these poorly maintained roads. I think it just--here's a national one. The whole issue of Social Security and Medicare, everyone who knows this, which is—knows, which is every member of Congress, all the staff, all the experts, the average people know that it has to be fixed because the--we're not generating enough money. We're paying out more in social security to me and my generation than we're taking in. Well, there's extra there, but it's diminishing as more and more people get older. There aren't enough people of your age who are chipping in. And by the way, they may send you something, but the money you send in is not going to Ryan Willis in his account. They keep track of it, because you will get it. The idea you will get it. But it's going to Mark Wyland and his buddies who are retired. So the reason, the underlying reason I think it doesn't get fixed is it's too tempting. If you and I are running and I say--you say, “Hey, we got to fix this. Look at my generation. I deserve it. I've been chipping in, my employer's chipping in, we got to fix this, got to reform it.” But the people don't understand we need to. My temptation, it's human: man, if I say, “Ryan wants to take away Medicare and take away Social Security and make you after retire at seventy-five (years old), I can win.” And so that's where we are. So no one touches it. And so, what my project is, everyone won't do this, but if enough people learn it (Social Security) has to be fixed, then instead of letting me get away with that and demonizing you, it's like, “Hey, Wyland, at least Ryan knows there's a problem. And he's talking about solutions. What's yours? Just rather than attacking him because you're pretending like there isn't one.” You see what I'm saying? What I'm trying to do is something I've wanted to do for forty years, which is change the nature of politics where enough people, it doesn't have to be everyone, just enough people, ten, fifteen percent, twenty, wonderful. Who know enough that pretty soon, instead of just these attacks, it's “Okay, here's the problem. What's your solution?” 01:23:42.000 --> 01:23:44.000 Yeah. 01:23:44.000 --> 01:23:46.000 You see what I'm saying? 01:23:46.000 --> 01:23:51.000 Right. I know you said that your mission really is obtaining better quality government. 01:23:51.000 --> 01:23:52.000 Yeah. 01:23:52.000 --> 01:23:55.000 And how do you do that? People need to be more informed. 01:23:55.000 --> 01:24:57.000 And it's the people that can hold them accountable. Because--look, I was a Republican. I am a Republican, but, and it's generally, and I have most of my oldest friends are Democrats, we need to get rid of this stuff (mashes fingers towards each other, indicating conflict). It's like, how do we solve this problem? And I'm more interested in, at the end of the day, not just, I may think, “Well, this is the best solution,” but I'm more interested in the gift I would like to give is let's have a discussion where we actually understand what the issues are. And you know what, I may say Social Security is better if you make--if people have to work another couple of years and you may say, “No, we should do this, or tax--the company has to pay more.” I don't care about that part as much as, “Hey, we're talking about how we solve it.” 01:24:57.000 --> 01:24:58.000 The discussion. 01:24:58.000 --> 01:25:46.000 And that's how you get better government. Sadly, the newspapers used to help us. They don't. TV's a joke. Boy, I'm starting to say things I might regret (Willis laughs). Look, I get local TV news, I understand it's a business. It gets worse and worse and worse. If you even have the first segment as real news, you're lucky. And all of them used to have reporters who knew government. Same thing with--I'll say this about the UT (The San Diego Union Tribune) and I know some of those people--they don't have enough reporters who actually understand government and as it declines and declines, and then they say, “Well, we're about this. We're about focusing on this group.” 01:25:46.000 --> 01:25:47.000 Yeah. 01:25:47.000 --> 01:26:51.000 I heard one of their key people there, I just could hardly believe it, say, “Well, we want to write stories about, you know, instead of old white men, we're going to focus on what this group or that group or my group.” And I'm thinking, tell me who doesn't want a good job, a good education for their family, a reasonably safe environment, who doesn't want to sit in traffic?” I mean, everyone has the same thing. Everyone wants healthcare. Some people have a bigger problem than others. We need to work on it. It's like (laughs)--and they don't know that. And they will write these endless stories about--that avoid--and because solving the problems is where it gets hard. That's where the hard work is. And that's where you realize, “Gosh, it's not as simple as I thought.” 01:26:51.000 --> 01:26:58.000 But with your project you feel like it can explain it to people and give them a platform. 01:26:58.000 --> 01:27:49.000 I can give you succinctly--we don't think twice about googling, right? And a friend of mine had this experience just recently-- I've been talking to, because I'm trying to get the fund(ing)--I actually have a nonprofit I set up years ago: the Institute for Civic Education. And you could do it as a nonprofit or you could even do it, you could sell it to libraries and things like that for research. It's not that hard. If you--people who are informed, educated, if you say, “Well, you know, there's these fights about defense and Social Security. Well, where do they spend the money?” They don't know. 01:27:49.000 --> 01:27:50.000 Yeah. 01:27:50.000 --> 01:29:51.000 I was talking to a friend of mine, highly educated guy, retired now, when I lived in New York, he was a pretty big-time business guy. And we're--but he's lifelong Democrat. But we, you know, we didn't used to have those divisions, you would joke, you'd kid, “Ah, you know, he is a right-wing, crazy, ah—" you like, it didn't matter (laughs). And I'm trying to get, we need to come together as a country. And I remember he said, “You know, I've lived in New York for forty years. I couldn't tell you,” I--he gets The New York Times every day. Maybe The Wall Street Journal. He said, “I couldn't tell you where the money is spent.” It's that simple. And they've got major problems. Look at the billions we're spending on the bullet train. I know trains, I knew more about that than anyone in that entire building, the legislature. Because I'd lived in New York and I'd taken it every day and I'd lived in Europe. And there's only a few places where they make sense here. In some places. So, because we no longer have the newspapers, I think if we get this information out there, you can market it, not necessarily for money, but--and pretty soon it's in social media, and instead of someone saying, “well google it” Hey, check out Civic Knowledge, check out Civic Information on that. We're debating this or that. Check it out. Who--and it has to be objective, it cannot be partisan. And it has to include solutions across the political spectrum in their own words. We were talking just before we started about an interview on 60 Minutes, which is what this would not be, where it was clear the intent was to do what I call “gotcha journalism.” 01:29:51.000 --> 01:29:52.000 Yeah. 01:29:52.000 --> 01:30:34.000 “I'm going to come up with a question that's going to make you sweat and everyone's going to see, you know, how horrible you are.” No. They need to, in their own words, they need to be exposed to the solution. I guarantee you what people will see is, it's harder than they thought. And it's a kind of a way of maturity when you become an adult and you realize--and people tend to be more pragmatic and let's see if we can move the ball forward. 01:30:34.000 --> 01:30:53.000 Yeah. No, definitely. So, along those lines, looking at politics today, I know you've expressed to me that one of the core issues, I mean, I know there's a lot, but one of the core issues with voters, and it's been problematic for decades, is not knowing who they're even really voting for. 01:30:53.000 --> 01:30:54.000 Right. 01:30:54.000 --> 01:30:55.000 Who are these people? 01:30:55.000 --> 01:30:56.000 Right. 01:30:56.000 --> 01:31:02.000 And many voters either don't do their due diligence or they don't really know where to start. 01:31:02.000 --> 01:31:03.000 Right. 01:31:03.000 --> 01:31:09.000 When it comes to researching these people and they really just go off of endorsements. 01:31:09.000 --> 01:31:10.000 Right. 01:31:10.000 --> 01:31:13.000 And relying on their own emotions essentially. 01:31:13.000 --> 01:31:15.000 Right. Exactly. 01:31:15.000 --> 01:31:17.000 I would love to hear more of your thoughts on that. 01:31:17.000 --> 01:32:22.000 Well, you nailed it, Ryan. And it's a change in a short period of time. That's what's so staggering. I mean, when I started in the early 2000s, you could get (laughs), I'm kind of an addict, but I was getting six or seven papers a day. I was getting four or five California papers. And journalists, they, and it's--their problem is it's a business. And their business went away once advertising moved to the internet and people no longer--it was no longer part of a rite of passage as you got older and formed a household, well, you get the paper--and maybe initially, and it's still true today--the guy, the first thing he's going to look at is the sports. And I know people still subscribing to the print version of the UT which is going down, who are disgusted with other parts, but they're reading the sports-- 01:32:22.000 --> 01:32:23.000 Or the comics. 01:32:23.000 --> 01:32:25.000 Or the comics (laughs). I'm a fan of the comics. 01:32:25.000 --> 01:32:26.000 Same here. 01:32:26.000 --> 01:32:27.000 I read the comics every day. 01:32:27.000 --> 01:32:28.000 Yep (laughs). 01:32:28.000 --> 01:32:29.000 Certain ones I really like. 01:32:29.000 --> 01:32:30.000 Right. 01:32:30.000 --> 01:35:10.000 And there's a lot of wisdom in the comics (laughs). And so it's an art form. So, I think that's made it harder. And I have a friend who was a pretty big-time newspaper publisher in other parts of the country. And we talk about this a lot. And I'm trying to say this is the only solution I know because when I started here, both the North County Times and the UT interviewed virtually every candidate, every candidate, if running for city council in El Cajon or Escondido or San Marcos, they interviewed you. And when I first sat down with the UT Editorial Board, it was seven or eight people and they apologized that they weren't all there. They had a separate editorial specialist on national security issues, which made sense. Here we are in the Navy town for crying out loud, the Navy and the Marines. And so, the only way I know to help change that and bring people more together is to have a simple way of seeing this. And if it's fully fleshed out, you can have a simple summary and then you can add more detail. So, if you want to know, well, how come we don't have more doctors? It's not hard. You figure out, well, they have to have residencies, who controls the number of residencies? Medicare. Medicare controls that. So, you ask your congressman, “Why don't you expand residencies for medical schools here?” Okay. You see, you can ask the governor this, and every legislator, you can't tell me. And if you saw the numbers and how big that bureaucracy is, you wouldn't believe it. You're telling me that you don't have enough room for doctors. Give me a break. Come on. The CSUs and the community colleges ; when Palomar has a three quarter a billion-dollar bond issue, and I said to them, “Aren't you going to expand your facilities for people who want to go into nursing?” “Well, you know.” Come on. I get why you're saying that, but this is something society needs. 01:35:10.000 --> 01:35:11.000 Yep. 01:35:11.000 --> 01:36:11.000 So, I said yesterday at Easter gathering, a family gathering, this came up and my sister's approach was, “Come on, people are lazy. They won't check it out.” Well, au contraire, (laughs) I think if people get accustomed to it, people check out their Google all the time. If they get used to it and it's objective, it can't be seen--so, if you portray someone's view on something: so-and-so introduced a bill to do this, if they call up and say, “Wait a minute, that you--you need to read it, that my intent is this.” I'm going to put exactly what they say. It has to be reliable. And I think it's one of the few ways out of this mess we’re in. 01:36:11.000 --> 01:36:30.000 Yeah. No, I agree. You mentioned it being objective. And I find that interesting because I know in one of the classes I have taken as a graduate student, one of the professors used to always ask, “Is it even possible to be objective?” What are your thoughts on that? 01:36:30.000 --> 01:48:04.000 You put your finger on a huge issue. And I want to think carefully before I go down this road. But I'm going to say it straight out anyway. I'm getting wound up. This ideology--and I'll say straight up, I can't stand ideology because I'm not talking about values or world views. Those are fine. But I define ideology as a rigid view. “It's only this way.” And new information bounces off. “It's this way.” And if I decide if there's some new issue, what my position is, what does my ideology say? I think it needs to be more pragmatic. And an ideology that has grown up in academia, which has had, I believe a really pernicious effect started in the 1970s in literature with postmodernism. And it used a couple of French philosophers, Jacque Derrida, and the other one escapes me. And ultimately developed--conservatives say it's Marxism and socialism. Not really. I think it took something that's real. Human beings have a history of--there are people who take advantage of others. And I think the promise of Western civilization--we need to go beyond the U.S.--is we confront things and try to fix them over time. Freedom of speech is part of it. Well, as that developed--this is my view--into all the iterations with all the terms. And it certainly happened in history. And it went from social history to, you know, critical theory and all the aspects of critical theory. And then to the deconstruction of text because--which applied to law. “Well, it doesn't really mean this because if you deconstruct it, it's yet one more example of those with power, especially white males, trying to oppress those without power.” And like with most insights, there's example--I mean, and most of this stuff that is anti-the West in anti-United States never looks at the sweep of history. I actually did a bill on this. It never looks comparatively, it never looks what happened within, oh, there's a name for it, Aboriginal groups. And with modern, whether it's anywhere in Europe, encountering less-advanced societies, it's always there. And the promise of western civilization is that we've worked hard to overcome a lot of those things and to build in tolerance. So, the problem I have with it is, it doesn't give you solutions. So I'll give one last example. Because I, you can see, I can go on. A professor I know has won many teaching awards and always liked to yank my chain. So, we're at a conference and he at a table, another professor and I am there and he comes up and says, “Well, you know, Mark, capitalism has hurt and damaged a lot more people than it's helped.” I knew what his goal is. He's read so many academic works, he's going to put me in my place because he knows this author and this author and that. But I don't rise to that bait. I said to him, his name is David. I said, “You know, David, all of us want people to do well. All of us.” There's no one who says, I want him to be poor, to struggle. But I said, “Here's the challenges.” And I just walked through the challenges, said, “What are you going to do if someone's got a good manufacturing job and China is subsidizing it so he can undercut the American company? He loses his job.” I just walked through all these challenges. Well, of course he has absolutely no idea. And he said, “Well, that's not my job. My job is to point out the problems, not the solutions.” Well, he was being so jerky about it, I said to him, I said, “Well, David, you know, that's okay for your students who become like you: an unaccountable academic. But for most people, what they do in their lives--work lives--is solve problems.” Well (laughs), he got all upset and stomped off. But my point was, that's how we can come together. That's how we can come together and respect each other more. So--and the same thing's true with ideology on the right. I mean, that happens to be, there's ideology and ideological things I've seen which are ridiculous. And I remember when I was early on up in the legislature, one of these ideologues on the right was saying, “Well, you know, we just have to be like on the budget has to be this.” And I said, “Look, I tried to sell my lumber and plywood materials to contractors who said, “Yeah, but I got a cheaper price over there.” I couldn't pound the table and say, “Well, this is a fair price.” He'll walk away. I have to figure out a way. And that's what I'm trying to achieve. I think--this is part of your history. And I think history is, if I hadn't studied IR (International Relations), I would've been a history major. It's got so much. But the only caution I would use, I think it's an important trait. Humility. Yes, you can define, you can say, “Well, one person's objectivity is another person's subjectivity.” I understand that. But it doesn't mean you don't strive for objectivity. And part of the problem of this worldview, and it's illustrated--and I'll get you this in a very important report from the Cronkite School at Arizona State--from prominent journalists ; former executive editor of the Washington Post, one of the key executives at CBS, and they quote many others, and they take it head on. They want to destroy objectivity. And they say objectivity is basically this white male point-of-view. I want to include all points of view. But you also have to have data and evidence. You can come up with the 1619 Project, which she says is a work of journalism. And you can cite evidence. And I'm not against that. But you also have to respect the evidence. Evidence is not always clear. And unlike a chemistry or a physics problem--and I thought a lot about this in the understanding politics--you can't say, “Well, the atomic weight of this molecule--" You can't do that. You have to--and so, so when I say “objective,” what I mean is I'm happy to have the standard that people of goodwill would say, this meets the standard, and that's where the solution part comes in. I don't care whether, I mean, it's not the crazy stuff, but I mean, you can go on the left with Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, less say, AOC (Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez), because she doesn't know as much but her as well. And you can go with whoever it is on, on the right. And you fully, you want their point of view out there and you want as much evidence as you can get. And if there's a disagreement about it, someone says, “Well, I think the number is this.” You put it out there. Because my goal is not, “I want this policy.” My goal is: you achieve--that's how you achieve objectivity and transparency. I would love to have the debate with any academic who says that. Now, is perfect--you know, the University of California changed a decade ago. It's--they have their own guide for research and they eliminated objectivity. The origins of this is an intellectual movement that came out of academia all those decades ago. I would never contend there is perfect objectivity. And one person can say, “My view's objective, so is the other one.” But you try to gather as much evidence, as much transparency. And the idea is you, all of us in the public who just want good governance, who doesn't want to sit in traffic because Caltrans (California Department of Transportation) can't get their act together, who work 24/7 and get that fixed. And most of us also want them to do enough maintenance and repair. So, they're prepared for a lot of water (laughs). 01:48:04.000 --> 01:48:14.000 Yeah. I know you mentioned that most people don't even know where to direct the blame when it comes to politics. 01:48:14.000 --> 01:48:15.000 Yeah. 01:48:15.000 --> 01:48:25.000 This is going to go into--I know you wanted me to ask you about some of the bills that you wrote personally, specifically an SDG&E bill (San Diego Gas & Electric). 01:48:25.000 --> 01:55:59.000 (laughs) I went after them. You know, there are a lot of them, and I'll just name two that don't have anything to do with education. My first year, and it's relevant today: (California Governor) Gray Davis in 2000, there were some blackouts, I mean straight up blackouts if we weren't, this wasn't like we've had where reduced power, straight up blackouts. People were incensed. So he panicked. And when people are upset, they tend to take it out on whoever's in the office. So, the first year we spent an enormous amount of time, special sessions, trying to understand what happened. And it had to do just like now with the price of natural gas. And the reality, most people don't know, and it's shameful right now that UT and the others don't seem to understand it: these utilities, and there's three major ones, are private companies regulated by government, which is the Public Utilities Commission. What SDG&E was committed, in our case, to paying for natural gas that shot up outrageously, had to be approved! They can't do that on their own. It had to be approved by the Public Utilities Commission. So what the heck are they doing? Well, the governor appoints the Public Utilities Commission. That's where you need to look at. What did they let SDG&E get away with that their cost of natural gas was so high that our bills skyrocket? And I think, Ryan, you know this, there are people who were really it through threw budgets. It really destroyed a lot of people's budgets. And so, it wasn't as bad, but what I came up with is, well, rather than have all these entities, people don't understand, let's have--it's a MUD, a Municipal Utility District. There is one in Sacramento, it's been there for years. And a Municipal Utility District, it's a non-profit. And people elect the governing board. So like, if it were in San Diego County, say five people. And I'd like to see that today, where there's direct accountability. Ryan, you're on that board, my bill's going up, what the heck is going on? Well, you're elected and you're going to respond and you're probably going to respond ahead of time. Because you know it's coming. It's not like, “Well that's SDG&E,” which really doesn't care. Why do they care? Their business decided by the Public Utilities Commission. So, you know, UT said, “Go to the meeting, get angry.” What do they care? Go to the PUC (Public Utilities Commission). What do they care? Now, if they said “Governor (laughs)!” So, what happened was, I couldn't--the utilities really had outsized interest in the committees and the legislature. So, I got help from a former--a Democrat--a former State Senator from South County, Steve Peace. He helped me. I could never have gotten that done at every turn. I managed to get it past the main first committee in Assembly. Well, the procedure is, it has to be transmitted physically. The bill has to be taken to the chamber to go to the next step. Well, they just didn't transmit it. They weren't going to. But Steve called them up and said, “Hey Mark. I had to tell them, get that bill out of there because they were just going to hold it,” which meant it would've died. And then it had to do with an interpretation of the law, which I thought I understood because I must have read it a hundred times better. And SDG&E said, “Well, our lawyers say we won't oppose this.” Besides, they didn't want to be the bad guy. Long story short, I got it pretty much overwhelmingly passed for Gray Davis to sign. And son of gun, he vetoed it. And what his spokesperson said was--here's what happened. He got so panicked. He went out because of the blackouts. He went out and made long-term contracts for natural gas. All the experts, because we had them there talking to us, testifying, all the experts said, “Whatever you do, don't do that, because we know the cycle. It's high now it's going to come down.” He panicked. So, he said, “Well, we've made all these long-term contracts, it's like per million cubic feet or whatever at like ten dollars. And now it's only five dollars. If I sign this, if I sign Wyland’s bill, they're going to have a MUD and they're going to buy all the gas cheap. And I'm stuck with all this expensive gas.” (Willis laughs) And I'll just say, give an example of one other bill, which I never had heard because it would never have passed, but it was introduced. And what it would've done is said, well, instead of considering the budget every year we're going to have a two-year budget. And the first year of every session, all we do is the budget. We don't do these hundreds--there's hundreds--there are sessions where there's 2,000 bills introduced. It becomes a bill factory and too many aren't really that important. All we'll do is the budget. And then it had the state auditor looking at every expenditure and developing a way to explain the history, the funding, the intended effect, and to devise a system to measure: is it effective? And then a recommendation. Is it really effective? We need to do more. Is it ineffective? We could get rid of it. And the idea was over time that the legislators would get really familiar. Really familiar. Because here's another little secret that shouldn't be, the single most important thing all government does is its spending, where does it get the money? How much do we pay in gas tax? Try to figure that one out and how it's changed and where does it go? Is where you get the money and where you spend it. And when you see these articles about this bill or that bill. Yeah, there are occasionally some bills that they feature. But you know, I'll bet you, I mean, my gosh, one year in education, a couple years we did over two hundred pieces of law. And I used to say, “Well, I voted on 2,000 new laws for education.” Do you think education is 2,000 laws better (both laugh). 01:55:59.000 --> 01:56:01.000 Right (laughs). 01:56:01.000 --> 01:56:35.000 So those are two things I worked on. I knew that wouldn't--you couldn't pass it because it's too big and it's too much of a change and it's too hard for people to get their arms around. To me it was no big deal because I've been used to being in business where we need to make this radical change because three months from now, we're going to be losing money big time if we don't do it. But in government, that's harder. So-- 01:56:35.000 --> 01:56:40.000 Different way of thinking for sure. 01:56:40.000 --> 01:57:23.000 It's not, it's not malicious like people saying, “I'm going to make things harder or worse.” It's just people get set in their way and they get set in their beliefs. And I was just listening to some scientists talk about nutrition science and talk about how many recommendations are made without good evidence. And we think of, “Well, science is always simple, straightforward.” Well, there's debates there too. 01:57:23.000 --> 01:57:24.000 Yeah. 01:57:24.000 --> 01:57:30.000 And, but they have studies they can debate and this, that's what I was trying to achieve. 01:57:30.000 --> 01:57:43.000 I see. Since I am part of the oral history project here at CSUSM, it would be very remiss of me if I did not ask you about your efforts in promoting oral history. I understand you wrote three bills? 01:57:43.000 --> 01:57:44.000 Three. 01:57:44.000 --> 01:57:57.000 That emphasize and encourage the use of oral history in the classroom. Why did you and still do feel so passionately about oral history? 01:57:57.000 --> 02:10:49.000 I think we need a lot more of it. We need it in the classroom. Good oral history. Mine might be too boring. They might say after ten minutes, “Okay, teacher, come on, we’ve heard enough of this guy.” I think human beings are hardwired to like stories. It can be a TV, a movie, a song. And my grandfather was a great storyteller. And as a little kid, he would tell stories about growing up in Minnesota on the farm. He was a good storyteller. And he was just really good. He would even perform and all these things. And then when I spent that semester in Germany, I learned so much from the grandfather in that family of what he had experienced. And you can't read it. And then his--another relative who later married his daughter was a great storyteller. And when you hear the stories and what happened in Nazi Germany and you hear someone say, “I was in this professor--this Jewish professor's office, and we hear all this commotion in the street and we go over the window and we see the brown shirts marching in the street.” You can read about it, but it's just not as powerful. So I became a huge believer in it. And I also was concerned that we were losing a sense of patriotism, which does not mean our country's perfect. Everything is perfect. I wave--I've never worn a flag lapel or all these things. But it means I've studied a lot of history in many different countries and societies. And unless there's some residual belief in your society, belief that we may not do things right, but there's a reservoir of goodwill, something like that ; it bodes--it doesn't bode well. And I knew you can't go out and get into these curriculum wars, you know, my book or my view, or we're going to teach the 1619 Project. We were racist in the beginning. We're--it's in our genes we always will be. Or this view that says, you know, the colonists were gods on earth, et cetera. I thought, “What about the stories?” And I thought about my parents' generation, World War II. So, I wrote a bill for to incorporate junior year taking American history, the stories of World War II veterans, and people on the home front because the country was really united. I even had a series of things I wanted them to cover. And everyone liked it. I couldn't mandate it. I couldn't say every history course has to have it. I did want it to be available. My idea was, it's available. Teachers need help. I wanted it, I didn't get there where you're teaching American history in high school and here's an oral history unit, you can use it one day, one week. It's curated. Here's essay questions, test questions, (unintelligible) the whole thing. And here's an in-service where you can learn how to do it. To make it, you know, so teachers say, “Yeah, that'll get kids interested.” The one thing though that illustrated the change, and this has to do with objectivity, it's right there. The last sentence and that they're supposed to be asked was--because I didn't say, just tell the story. I wanted them to cover certain things--what did they think about our entry to the war? Did all these sorts of things. Their opinion of the end of the war in the Pacific and the use of atomic weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Well, I knew that every single vet is going to say, “Darn right we did that. We would've lost thousands plus thousands of Japanese. We needed to end that war.” And here my own dad was getting ready to get shipped overseas. He was ready to go when they dropped the bomb and the war ended. And I also knew that so-called revisionist, Cold War history. And I don't know if you read any of that stuff, but I'd read it in graduate school. And the professor said, “Once you read this, you'll think it's utter nonsense, but it's out there and I think it's important you'd be familiar with it.” And then we went through it. And the lack of evidence and selected use of evidence you're talking about--that was subjective. And I knew that some of it at the extremes was saying, we initiated the Cold War because we dropped those bombs purposely to challenge the Soviets, to show them “You better watch out.” That's an oversimplification. And by the way, it was also racist act, just like our internment. Well, we interned, I mean, no one can deny we did all those things. But the humility of trying to understand history and other people is try to look at it from their perspective. You know? And, so it was intended to be an antidote because what I'd seen was, it's only this perspective. I tell friends of mine, I said, you ought to read because I have textbooks. I said, “you ought to read a current textbook when it covers World War II.” And because it's not that it didn't happen. We had riots in Mobile and up in Oakland at the shipyards. All those--no one denies any of that stuff, but there's more to it than that. And all the things that we knew, we knew every battle. We knew what a sacrifice, those poor marines. And we knew the debates: MacArthur convincing Roosevelt to waste all those men's lives and Filipino lives and Japanese lives invading the Philippines. The Navy clearly had the right--forget the Philippines, we can beat them with-- anyway, all those important things. And so, son of a gun, it (the bill) sails through. And I had a co-author in the Senate, great senator who could have gone on to be Mayor and Congress and all the rest of anything she wanted. And from San Diego. And we're ready to go. And it's on the Senate floor. And then it would've gone to the Governor and son of a gun in my office says, “You know, Mark, we got a call. There's a problem. You can't get it off the Senate floor.” Son of a gun. The Speaker, the then Speaker whom I liked, John Burton--he was old school, old school Democratic politician from Northern California whose brother was a member of Congress when they had that horrible thing in Central America with “Drink the Kool Aid.” Anyway, he had empowered, he didn't do it. He had a staffer who was younger and she read that thing. And the minute she read that line about dropping the bomb (waves arms as if referee), no goal. And she told my office, “You take that out and it's fine.” Now that is the reality because she was younger and she had an ideological view--in my view, in my opinion--an ideological subjective view that the use of those weapons was evidence. Total evidence. Not, “Well what's the other view? I've never actually talked to veterans, how they’d view this.” Total evidence. Because she had read--oh my gosh, one of the authors, Gabriel Coco, there were several, I used to know all of them--that that was reality. And I got it through. And then the next year I did one for Korea and Vietnam. And it was before, I think it was before Iraq, but it covered what had happened in the Middle East. Same thing. And then I did one that took me about four years, on genocide. I finally got it through my last year. And I thought it was important to understand the historical phenomenon of genocide. Not just the Holocaust. And what I said to Jewish members up there, “We, you know, we do a tribute to the Holocaust, memory of the Holocaust every year, but it's not just the Holocaust. This is human beings do this.” And I started as with oral history. So I started with the Armenian (genocide). And we have a lot of people of Armenian backgrounds in California now, as examples. Not the only ones. Armenian, the Holocaust. I used Cambodia, Rwanda, I think Somalia, maybe Bosnia as examples. And you know, it's the dark side of human history. And very importantly, I included that when students consider this, they need to consider how we can avoid these in the future because the solution part is so important. And that's the hard stuff. And I even had in there for example, “Should we be willing to deploy UN troops or American troops?” Neither of which we would do. And I just wanted them to understand, you can get wound up and a lot of people are wound up and emotional about all sorts of things, but do the hard work about solving it. And once you get in the trenches, it's harder. And so that was the idea. And because interestingly enough, the only reason it took me so long, was there is a very powerful Turkish interest group that says the Armenian genocide never happened. It's a fiction. And finally I was able to get that passed. And if you've ever heard any of those documentaries, which I'm addicted to, and you can hear like for the Holocaust, some of those films. So, you're embarked on something really important. I think the oral history is really important. And when you become a professor of this, a teacher of this, I hope you incorporate it. 02:10:49.000 --> 02:10:56.000 Definitely. I love the concept of oral history. And I wasn't even introduced to it until recently. 02:10:56.000 --> 02:10:57.000 Yeah. 02:10:57.000 --> 02:11:01.000 This is something that I would've loved in high school. 02:11:01.000 --> 02:11:02.000 Yeah. 02:11:02.000 --> 02:11:09.000 Instead of a teacher just--talk, talk talk--“This is what happened in this war. This war is what, okay, let's take a test on it.” 02:11:09.000 --> 02:11:10.000 You know-- 02:11:10.000 --> 02:11:11.000 Hearing these perspectives-- 02:11:11.000 --> 02:11:12.000 Yeah. 02:11:12.000 --> 02:11:13.000 Would've been mind-blowing. 02:11:13.000 --> 02:14:34.000 Well see my, both of my grandparents, all four of my grandparents were raised on farms. That's how you learn. We were agricultural. And you hear their stories. And all of them left because the work was never ending and really hard because they're family farms. And my grandfather was the youngest in a big farm family. And he was a good storyteller. So, I learned about the nineteenth century from those stories. His name was Bryan Swede, who was the city councilman supervisor. Well, he was named after William Jennings Bryan. And that's my middle name. Because his father was a devotee of William Jennings Bryan the Prairie populist. And he had gone to rallies as a little kid for William Jennings Bryan, where they had songs, you know, I had music, they had these political songs and how would I know this? But he explained his father--this was in Minnesota, was--some sort of official state official who, and you would know the period better, but ended up going to Colorado during that period in the early twentieth century where they had all the mine riot--the mine strikes and all that stuff. And he saw how the miners were treated, and the strike breakers. And it radicalized him to use a modern term. And he came back and he joined--he was a Wobbly, International Workers of the World (Industrial Workers of the World). Now this is a guy with not a lot of education, but you really got, you really understand what it was like when you saw--you know, you can read about strike breakers--but he went and saw the way they were being treated. So, you know, it's powerful. And if I hadn't learned all those stories in Germany, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I--you (laughs) when--and it's not only the family I lived with, but then the husband of the daughter who--and what it was like being a student with no money and eating--in Vienna when there were riots and the cops were all on horseback with sabers and all that stuff. It's like, wow. We're at the end of the war when he was an official, he was an economist he was on the train from Frankfurt to Berlin. The train is stopped--end the war. German soldiers are deserting. Stop. They go through, check everyone's ID, find Germans who they consider deserters and they spring them up right there. And you just--all these, that's--I don't--that should, that's too negative. (Willis laughs) But you really, yeah. 02:14:34.000 --> 02:14:36.000 It changes your perspective completely. 02:14:36.000 --> 02:14:37.000 Yeah. 02:14:37.000 --> 02:14:42.000 And this is going to be one of the last things for me, Mark, as we're wrapping it up here (Wyland laughs). 02:14:42.000 --> 02:14:44.000 I've done a whole-- 02:14:44.000 --> 02:14:45.000 No, this has been great. 02:14:45.000 --> 02:14:48.000 This is a dump (both laugh). 02:14:48.000 --> 02:15:01.000 I've enjoyed every minute of it, I assure you. But one thing that's really, obviously as an historian, really important to me is just knowing the truth. Like, I love learning history, but I want to know the truth. Don't give me this, you know, romantic-- 02:15:01.000 --> 02:15:02.000 Right. 02:15:02.000 --> 02:15:08.000 Romanticized version of it. And one thing I'm very passionate about is Native American history. 02:15:08.000 --> 02:15:09.000 Right. 02:15:09.000 --> 02:15:10.000 My wife is Native American. 02:15:10.000 --> 02:15:12.000 Right. 02:15:12.000 --> 02:15:21.000 We are taught as young children that, “Oh, you know, we, the Natives welcomed, you know, the white man with open arms.” 02:15:21.000 --> 02:15:22.000 Yeah. 02:15:22.000 --> 02:15:24.000 “We shared their land. We had Thanksgiving.” 02:15:24.000 --> 02:15:25.000 Right, right. 02:15:25.000 --> 02:15:28.000 We don't learn the truth about it until we're adults. 02:15:28.000 --> 02:15:29.000 Yeah. 02:15:29.000 --> 02:15:32.000 Which is incredible to me. 02:15:32.000 --> 02:21:04.000 Well, that's--you posed an interesting question. Because we know the truth. And I thought it had changed, but maybe it hadn't because when I was in high school, a long time ago, taking American history, maybe it wasn't in the textbook, but I remember the teachers saying, you know, we estimate there were this many--they didn't use Indigenous peoples--Native Americans. There are this many Native Americans. And then, you know, the--had collapsed, the Vale of Tears March (Trail of Tears). We learned that stuff. And, the history is the history, you know, the missions, we all know what happened. The missions subjugated the Mission Indians and all that stuff. So, certainly, we need to know that. I think, my gosh, now this was in college, I took a course in Latin American history. And when the Spaniards first started coming into the Americas, there was a theological debate. And the theological debate was, “Are they human? Because if they're human, we need to save them,” which meant convert them to Christianity. And the only thing I would say about that is we've come a long way. We certainly need to know it. But I think to make it complete, we need to see the changes that have been wrought. And it needs to be comparative. If you were Indio in Mexico or Latin America, you know, they'll talk with pride. And I learned in Colombia, you know, we think of it all the same. They’re all different, right? The Colombianos do not particularly like the Mexicanos. And part of it is all the Americans think, you know, they're Mexicanos and they're not the Colombianos. And they would talk about “el orgullo de ser Mexicano,” which means “they’re arrogant” and they brag about, you know, their great history of the Aztecs and the Mayans. They don't get treated very well. And I'm not doing that to cast aspersions on them. What I'm saying is, look at the Europeans in Africa and Asia and the rest of it. There's something about human beings that tends to do that. And the question is, okay, “What is the history since then? How are we solving the problems?” Now in California and other places, the advent of gaming has done a lot because all of a sudden there's a lot more money. But all the tribes--I know a ton about this, Ryan, because you can't be in the state legislature. And I was on the relevant committee. I've been--I haven't been invaluable, but I've been in almost every one of them. And they're all different. The, you know, the tribal leaders are all different, then they can change. And some are, you know--and when I went up to my sister’s, I go right by Valley View, go right by Rincon. And if I turn left, I'd--you know. But so. I think it's really important to learn the history. But not, not that there's just one lesson, but there's a lot of lessons because humans--the, however you want to think how it happens, either it's something in us, or if you're Jewish or Christian in Genesis, we're fallen, we sinned and we're driven out of Eden. We're--you're in trouble now, you know, East of Eden. And women will bear children in pain. And the next thing you know, Cain slew Abel, his brother. And it's sort of whether it's that's what happened, that's what I believe, or it's a parable, I think the challenge for all civilization is “How do we overcome these things in the right way?” Does that make sense? 02:21:04.000 --> 02:21:05.000 Yes. 02:21:05.000 --> 02:22:22.000 But you do have to learn the truth. When I was in elementary school, we learned about the sharing and all that sort of thing. But in high school, you know, we got, we got the real thing. And then what do you do? And that's why I did the thing (oral history bill) on genocide because I said, “Well, there's these groups, but you can add in lots more.” And how do you stop it? And how do you get people--see, I think that's Western, for all our sins. How do you get people--it's western civilization that is able to say, “We need to see people and accord them respect as they're like us. It's not that easy. And I also know a lot about immigration and immigration into Europe and all these other things. It gets complicated. So yeah (both laugh). Well, and you know-- 02:22:22.000 --> 02:22:23.000 It's a heavy topic. I know. 02:22:23.000 --> 02:22:24.000 Well, it's an important one. 02:22:24.000 --> 02:22:25.000 It is. 02:22:25.000 --> 02:23:02.000 And, and, and, but here's the key. And I did have a bill, which I think I did as a resolution or something. Actually, I was looking through them, so I need to find some of it. It's important to learn it in that context. How many--I had thought that, well, when Cortez landed, you know, they rode in to--they rode into to, I think it was called Mexico. I've forgotten what the Capital was with the Aztecs and the chief Aztec said, “Oh my gosh, these are gods on horses.” 02:23:02.000 --> 02:23:03.000 Montezuma. 02:23:03.000 --> 02:23:18.000 Montezuma. I don't know, you may know this. I didn't. It took them years. And what they did was they built relationships with neighboring tribes that had been subjugated by the Aztecs. 02:23:18.000 --> 02:23:19.000 Right. 02:23:19.000 --> 02:23:23.000 Who had enslaved them and taken their kids for sacrifices. 02:23:23.000 --> 02:23:26.000 So they were more than willing--“Hey I’ll help you out.” 02:23:26.000 --> 02:26:38.000 So they were more than willing. And so how do you--in a world, when I was studying international relations, they call it IR for short. And it was the Cold War. And after 1962 and the Cuban Missile Crisis, it was very stable. But we thought it was dangerous. And it was, but not like now. So, what do you do in a world where the next biggest, some people would say bigger economy (China), is utterly totalitarian, where everyone has a social media score where they can take--same human thing. The Uyghurs aren't like us. Only ethnic Han Chinese get treated well while the Tibetans and all the rest, they are subjugated. How, and that's such a powerful country and getting more powerful. How do we maintain societies where rule of law isn't perfect, but people cared about the laws we passed? You know what, again, this is not dumping on Mexico, but I'll tell you a story that illustrates the conundrum. This was a professor of mine while we were negotiating NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement. And he had a conversation with--he was then Foreign Minister of Mexico. And I think he's a professor now, totally bicultural, American PhD. I'll think of his name. I can't think of it right now. Anyway, and they were still negotiating and the US was asking for more environmental guarantees. And he said to my friend, “You Americans don't get it. Because in America, law matters. Law doesn't matter in Mexico.” Give us all the guarantees you want. We'll sign them. It won't make any different. Now, that's not because Mexicans don't want--they don't want the cartels. They don't want--they want the same kind of democracy--which is imperfect--we have. But maybe you're the next generation and you're studying history. Maybe you can help us figure out how we can create more of this and at least maintain what we have. 02:26:38.000 --> 02:26:58.000 Yes, absolutely. I'm right there with you. Well, Mark, I can't thank you enough for your time and your candidness today. It has been extremely informative. It's been an honor to be able to speak with you. Before we close the interview, is there anything else you would like to add that we did not get to? 02:26:58.000 --> 02:28:46.000 Well, there may be, and I may have some stuff I can send you if you're interested. Because I started thinking through all of this and I appreciate it, Ryan, because not only are--number one, you're actually interested, which is great. Number two, you're going to teach, I hope, because I think you would be a good teacher. And it's been fun actually. And I didn't think I'd get so wound up (both laugh). But, you know, I'm trying to make it better. And gosh, the issue with Native Americans, I can't tell you that hours I have spent with all these issues in great depth. And they've had their, their challenges. And one of the interesting things about state government, once you take out national defense or a couple of things you're dealing with, actually there are many important issues that the federal government doesn't deal with. And in a state like California where it's a very activist legislature and government, you really deal with a huge number of things. So anyway. Well, I appreciate it and I appreciate you letting me talk about my plan to fix it all (laughs). I still see the world the way it could be. 02:28:46.000 --> 02:28:50.000 Right. No, and I admire that. We need more people like you honestly, that think in that way. 02:28:50.000 --> 02:28:51.000 Well-- 02:28:51.000 --> 02:28:58.000 So, I know, I really appreciate it. So thank you for everything that you have done and continue to try to do. Because I think it's very admirable. 02:28:58.000 --> 02:29:42.000 Well, I really appreciate that and I appreciate--you can't do it without help and support because people want that. People deserve--I'm not one of those who says, “Well, they voted the wrong way. They deserve it.” No, people deserve feeling good about their government, being able to say, “Well, I didn't agree with everything, but you know, they're trying to do the right thing.” And right now we don't have that. And I think this is one way to restore it. And I couldn't do it, even think about it if I didn't think people think, yeah, let's do that. 02:29:42.000 --> 02:29:43.000 Yeah. 02:29:43.000 --> 02:29:45.000 So anyway, well— 02:29:45.000 --> 02:29:46.000 Really Concur. 02:29:46.000 --> 02:29:48.000 I enjoyed this (laughs). 02:29:48.000 --> 02:30:02.000 I did as well. I think anybody that's going to check this interview out's going to really enjoy it. I learned a lot. And that's, I think, really the ultimate goal. So Mark, thank you again so much for joining me today at the California State University San Marcos Library. And I will now stop the recording. 02:30:02.000 --> 02:30:04.000 Okay. 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Wyland, Mark. Interview, April 10, 2023
Description
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Oral history interview with Mark Wyland on 04/10/2023. In this interview, Wyland discusses his upbringing and family background, including his family business in Pine Tree & Lumber. Wyland explains his education background along with studying in Germany for a year, and how he was motivated to choose a career in politics. Wyland expanded on his career on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board, becoming a member of the California State Assembly from 2000-2006, and then being elected into the California Senate in 2006, serving until 2014. Wyland reflects on his trials and tribulations throughout the years, offering his thoughts and suggestions on the current state of American politics and how it can be improved. Wyland also speaks on K-12 school curriculum, Native American History, and the importance of Oral History being taught in the classroom.
Identifier
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SC027-38
Subject
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Bills, Legislative
California. Legislature. Assembly
California. Legislature. Senate
International relations
Legislation -- California
Lumberyards -- California -- Escondido
Oral history
Politics and government -- 20th century
Politics and government -- 21st century
School boards -- California -- Escondido
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2023-04-10
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audio
Creator
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Mark Wyland
Contributor
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Ryan Willis
Coverage
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Escondido (California)
California
Germany
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos
Language
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English
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a>
Rights Holder
A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource.
Mark Wyland
Community history
History Department internship
Politics and governance
-
https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/112b21d9155ea35c00877f0832c5a9a6.pdf
be319453aba0694528cf6ede19e42c5e
Dublin Core
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Title
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Transcripts
Description
An account of the resource
Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Wyland, Mark. Interview transcript, April 10, 2024
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history interview with Mark Wyland on 04/10/2023. In this interview, Wyland discusses his upbringing and family background, including his family business in Pine Tree & Lumber. Wyland explains his education background along with studying in Germany for a year, and how he was motivated to choose a career in politics. Wyland expanded on his career on the Board of Education of the Escondido Union School Board, becoming a member of the California State Assembly from 2000-2006, and then being elected into the California Senate in 2006, serving until 2014. Wyland reflects on his trials and tribulations throughout the years, offering his thoughts and suggestions on the current state of American politics and how it can be improved. Wyland also speaks on K-12 school curriculum, Native American History, and the importance of Oral History being taught in the classroom.
This oral history interview was made possible by the Ellie Johns Foundation stewarded by the Rancho Santa Fe Library Guild. It was created as part of CSUSM's University Library/History Department internship in oral history.
Creator
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Mark Wyland
Contributor
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Ryan Willis
Julia Friedman
Date
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2024-04-10
Subject
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Bills, Legislative
California. Legislature. Assembly
California. Legislature. Senate
International relations
Legislation -- California
Lumberyards -- California -- Escondido
Oral history
Politics and government -- 20th century
Politics and government -- 21st century
School boards -- California -- Escondido
Coverage
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Escondido (Calif.)
California
Germany
Publisher
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California State University San Marcos University Library
Language
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English
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en%20">In copyright</a>
Rights Holder
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Mark Wyland
License
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<a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a>
Format
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text
Identifier
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WylandMark_WillisRyan_2023-04-10_transcript
Community history
History Department internship
Politics and governance