2 10 26 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert Sheehan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Thao Ha OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. gang violence OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Oral history of Thao Ha, April 19, 2022 SC027-21 1:27:24 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Education Gangs -- Texas -- Houston Mira Costa College -- California -- Oceanside Refugees -- Vietnam Transitions (Program) Victims of violent crimes gang violence Thao Ha Robert Sheehan mp4 HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.mp4 1:|17(4)|30(1)|39(3)|50(1)|63(17)|75(3)|94(15)|109(3)|123(2)|136(1)|150(5)|157(9)|167(11)|180(4)|193(7)|203(4)|211(13)|221(4)|234(1)|246(1)|256(5)|269(2)|279(11)|291(3)|304(10)|314(8)|322(14)|335(2)|347(13)|360(13)|372(8)|381(10)|393(10)|406(5)|417(6)|427(2)|436(11)|445(16)|454(6)|463(2)|472(6)|484(14)|494(11)|507(3)|518(8)|529(10)|538(4)|544(14)|561(4)|571(16)|583(4)|601(7)|612(14)|625(18)|639(2)|650(7)|663(1)|674(13)|693(4)|705(8)|717(12)|727(14)|738(9)|750(6)|758(1)|769(2)|777(9)|789(5)|800(3)|810(5)|819(13)|831(3)|839(8)|849(4)|859(14)|870(13)|879(8)|888(14)|900(3)|910(2)|919(11)|928(16)|938(2)|951(13)|962(11)|972(15)|982(6) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/e0bc9bd3a81619c640e7bc9fc529dc61.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction/ Childhood Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, “Oh my God, it must have been so scary.” (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, “Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives” by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Thao Ha discusses her early childhood. She was born in Vietnam and recounts the story of how she fled the country at the fall of Saigon as a toddler with her parents. She explains that they were processed into the United States as refugees and settled in San Antonio, Texas. HoChi Minh City ; refugees ; Saigon ; San Antonio (Tex.) ; Vietnam ; Vietnamese family 403 Family background/ Parents’ occupations Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or…? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, “How come you weren’t a pilot when you were already a pilot?” And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, “Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.” And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, “Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.” Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Thao Ha discusses her family’s background. She has two younger sisters and one younger brother. Their family also moved around often for their father’s work, and they have lived in San Antonio, TX, Knoxville, TN, Cedar Rapids, IA, and Houston, TX. Her family still resides in Houston. Thao also describes her parents’ occupations. Her father was a pilot in the South Vietnamese Air Force, but he had lost his log books when they fled to the U.S. In order to support his family, her father became a mechanic in the U.S. Thao explains that this is part of the refugee experience. She also explains that her mother was a seamstress who sewed t-shirts for babies in hospitals who was later contracted by an ophthalmologist to sew surgical eye patch garters. Her parents later collaborated with the ophthalmologist and worked together to create surgical eye patches that contained metal parts. Houston (Tex.) ; Mechanic ; pilot ; refugees ; Seamstresses ; Vietnamese family 845 Growing up in a Vietnamese community Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, “Go back to my own country,” you know, “Go back to your country.” And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I—I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, “Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,” and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Thao Ha discusses her experience growing up in a Vietnamese community in Houston, TX. She explains that Houston was an area in which secondary migration occurred for Vietnamese refugees due to job opportunities and affordable housing. Thao describes feeling connected to her community in Houston ; she had many Vietnamese friends in school, she spoke the language at home, and there were Vietnamese stores in town. As a refugee, however, Thao did also experience bullying and racism from other children in her community. It was also during this time that Thao began associating with other kids who had formed gangs. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; refugees ; Vietnamese community ; Vietnamese family ; Vietnamese-American gangs 1137 Relationship with sisters / Gang affiliations in Houston, TX Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, “Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,” right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was—you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you’re in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, “Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,” and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, “They looked like gangsters,” and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, “Oh my God! We know him,” but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Thao Ha discusses the responsibilities of being the eldest child in an immigrant household. She felt that there was a lot of pressure placed on her to set a good example for her younger siblings and to ensure their safety. Thao also explains the culture of gang affiliation for immigrant youth and teenagers. In Houston, Thao describes that gang affiliation was needed as a means for protection against non-Vietnamese teenagers. She further describes her teenage years living in Houston and her experience with friends and family in gangs. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; Refugees ; Vietnamese family ; Vietnamese-American gangs 1921 School years Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, “I did this like three years ago.” (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, “Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now.” So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, “Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.” And my parents were like, “Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?” And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, “Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.” And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don’t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, “Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I’ll just figure it out later and take the test.” Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it—or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking “Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.” And going more towards thinking “Well maybe I'll just get a job,” because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, “I don't know what I'm going to do.” And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, “That's it. I'll just go get a job.” And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, “Okay,” something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, “Okay, that's it, it's time to—&quot ; it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, “Okay if I go back to school,” which I definitely wanted to do, “I will study something that I want to.” And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, “Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!” And I thought, “Well, I will study law,” so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, “Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,” and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Thao Ha first discusses her middle school and high school years. She recounts excelling in many subjects, but that fighting with students and truancy caused other problems while in the school system. She graduated from high school Cum Laude but describes struggling to find her path in college. Many of her friends were still involved in gang activity, and she did not know where she belonged. She explains that she decided to leave college and find a job to support her family. She also explains that after being shot in a pool hall and seeing more friends enter the prison system, she decided to go back to college and studying sociology. Crime ; Education ; Refugee ; Sociology ; Vietnamese-American gangs 2475 Getting shot at a pool hall Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie’s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, “Okay, we got to get out of here,” right? “We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.” So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, “Okay, we got to get out of here!” And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, “There's a fight outside. We got to go!” So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, “Bang, bang, bang.” We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, “Why does my arm hurt so bad?” And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, “Fuck, I got shot!” right? And everybody's like, “What, what, what!?” And so, I'm like, “Drive to hospital!” Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking “What just happened?” And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe just what happened.” And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, “Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.” And I was just like, “Ow!” It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, “No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this.” Like, “If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here.” I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, “Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,” right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, “Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.” Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, “Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter.” I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, “Oh, you see that?” And so, he was pointing, and he said, “That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm.” And then he goes, “Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.” So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He’s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, “So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.” So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, “Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.” And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents “Two millimeters.” That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, “Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up.” Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, “Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!” You know you watch on TV and it's like, “Let me know if you're cold!” Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, “I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it’s just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again.” Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, “What are your goals?” I was like, “Well I want to play volleyball again.” And he was like, “I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work.” Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Thao Ha describes in further detail the night she was shot at an American pool hall called Slick Willie’s. She recalls many Vietnamese at the pool hall that night when a fight broke out. She explains that she was shot as she and her friends were escaping the pool hall. She also describes her experience in the hospital and speaking with police. Thao also describes how being shot affected her volleyball career. Crime ; Houston (Tex.) ; pool halls ; refugee ; Vietnamese-American gangs 3230 Studying sociology in university Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, “I will write with my right hand!” So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, “Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything,” right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, “People study Vietnamese people?” It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. “Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.” So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, “Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.” And I will never forget. She's like, “Oh, I know you.” she's like, “You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?” And I said, “No,” and she said, “Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!” And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, “Wow! I feel so special.” So, I said, “Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.” (laughs) And she was like, “You want to go to law school, huh?” So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, “Do you want to work eighty hours a week?” And I was like, “No.” And she said, “Well, you know that’s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.” She was like, “Have you ever thought about being a professor?” I said, “No.” She said, “Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,” right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, “Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.” And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, “How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.” And I'm like, “Oh, wow.” So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, “I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side.” So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, “Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!” And I'm like, “Oh my God.” (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, “Your daughter should be a professor.” And my parents like, “Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.” (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Thao Ha recounts her decision to study sociology in college. Thao describes how her sociology professor mentored her in undergrad, provided her with research opportunities, and influenced her to go into teaching. Education ; Immigration studies ; refugee ; Sociology ; Teaching 3538 Decision to go into teaching / Dichotomy of identities Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. “Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.” And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, “If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.” So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, “Oh man, that's really what I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,” and my parents were like, “Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.” (laughs) “You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?” That's my mom, right? Like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.” So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, “Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.” So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, “Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.” So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like “I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.” I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Thao Ha continues to discuss her decision to go into teaching. She also describes the dichotomy of her identity while in graduate school. She explains that she felt that she had to let go of her past while earning her PhD. Once Thao began working with individuals in the California prison system, however, she began to reconcile her past and present identities. Crime ; Education ; Identity ; Immigration studies ; refugee ; Refugee Studies ; Sociology ; Teaching ; Vietnamese-American gangs 3936 Future of the judicial system Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, “We should just do away with prisons,” prison abolition, like, “We don't need prisons in society.” And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, “Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society.” So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Thao Ha discusses the future of the judicial system. She explains her complicated opinions regarding the prison abolition movement and how she instead supports abolishing for-profit prisons and lifetime sentences for youth. Crime ; For-profit prisons ; Prison ; Prison abolition movements ; Refugee ; Wrongful convictions 4440 Family experiences with wrongful convictions/ Thoughts on reduced sentencing Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, “Oh, you did that and so you get out,” but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, “Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,” people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Thao Ha discusses her family experiences with wrongful convictions in the prison system. She explains how a wrongful conviction can turn into a life sentence and how some punishments do not fit the crime. Thao also explains how reduced prison sentencing can depend on each state’s law. She discusses the different reduced sentencing laws in California and Texas. California ; Crime ; Prison ; Reduced sentencing ; Refugee ; Texas ; Wrongful convictions 4814 The value of education/ Experience teaching at a community college Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don’t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, “Well, I learned that on TikTok.” Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, “Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!” I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, “Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?” And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, “I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.” And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, “I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.” So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Thao Ha reflects on the value of education. She understands that a university education is expensive for many students and wants to see education become more accessible. She also discusses her career as a professor in the community college system and explains her passion for connecting with her students in a close-knit learning environment. Community college ; Education ; Refugee ; Sociology ; Teaching Oral history Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at Mira Costa College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I&#039 ; m here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that&#039 ; s where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they&#039 ; ve shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they&#039 ; re in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn&#039 ; t really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents&#039 ; lens, I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Oh my God, it must have been so scary.&quot ; (laughs) And, she&#039 ; s got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn&#039 ; t crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that&#039 ; s the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That&#039 ; s incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn&#039 ; t had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, &quot ; Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives&quot ; by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you&#039 ; re running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father&#039 ; s kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he&#039 ; s just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that&#039 ; s when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that&#039 ; s where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family&#039 ; s still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or--? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, &quot ; How come you weren&#039 ; t a pilot when you were already a pilot?&quot ; And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn&#039 ; t they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren&#039 ; t, that&#039 ; s something they didn&#039 ; t take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, &quot ; Well, I can&#039 ; t be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.&quot ; And they just, you know I think that&#039 ; s part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents&#039 ; generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can&#039 ; t be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you&#039 ; re alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don&#039 ; t think he has any--I&#039 ; m not sure, that was a good question. I&#039 ; ll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it&#039 ; s one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren&#039 ; t really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they&#039 ; re newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here&#039 ; s where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, &quot ; Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.&quot ; Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn&#039 ; t want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That&#039 ; s really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there&#039 ; s a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it&#039 ; s not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn&#039 ; t have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, &quot ; Go back to my own country,&quot ; you know, &quot ; Go back to your country.&quot ; And just the things that you&#039 ; ll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I--I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, &quot ; Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,&quot ; and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that&#039 ; s when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that&#039 ; s like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there&#039 ; s a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there&#039 ; s a dichotomy. There&#039 ; s the Thao at home. And then there&#039 ; s the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that&#039 ; s a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they&#039 ; ll tell you like, &quot ; Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,&quot ; right? Like if there&#039 ; s three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you&#039 ; d have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn&#039 ; t get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I&#039 ; m going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it&#039 ; s kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny&#039 ; s not the right word, but it&#039 ; s interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there&#039 ; s an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don&#039 ; t see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there&#039 ; s another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you&#039 ; re in the math club or if you&#039 ; re in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there&#039 ; s fun in that as well, but there&#039 ; s also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you&#039 ; re not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I&#039 ; m sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don&#039 ; t want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was--you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn&#039 ; t necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you&#039 ; re in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad&#039 ; s youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he&#039 ; s a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he&#039 ; s in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who&#039 ; s his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That&#039 ; s the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you&#039 ; re constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you&#039 ; re in a social setting who you don&#039 ; t want to mess with, and who you don&#039 ; t want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don&#039 ; t know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, &quot ; Oh, I fallen and I can&#039 ; t get up,&quot ; and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they&#039 ; d hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they&#039 ; d rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That&#039 ; s how he described them, &quot ; They looked like gangsters,&quot ; and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn&#039 ; t do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America&#039 ; s Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI&#039 ; s most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America&#039 ; s Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, &quot ; Oh my God! We know him,&quot ; but we didn&#039 ; t know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that&#039 ; s kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I&#039 ; d kind of like to circle back to your education. As you&#039 ; re going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you&#039 ; re doing well in school. But those two don&#039 ; t seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; I did this like three years ago.&quot ; (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn&#039 ; t learning. And I came home and I told my dad, &quot ; Hey, I don&#039 ; t know, dad. Like, I don&#039 ; t know what you want from us. I&#039 ; m sorry that we messed up. And I&#039 ; m sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I&#039 ; m getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I&#039 ; m in the eighth grade now.&quot ; So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don&#039 ; t have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, &quot ; Oh, I&#039 ; d love to be like a journalist or an author.&quot ; And my parents were like, &quot ; Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?&quot ; And I didn&#039 ; t know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, &quot ; Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.&quot ; And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn&#039 ; t let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don&#039 ; t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, &quot ; Oh, they don&#039 ; t take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don&#039 ; t have to go to class. I&#039 ; ll just figure it out later and take the test.&quot ; Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn&#039 ; t work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn&#039 ; t enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it--or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking &quot ; Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.&quot ; And going more towards thinking &quot ; Well maybe I&#039 ; ll just get a job,&quot ; because I need to help my friends figure out what they&#039 ; re doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t know what I&#039 ; m going to do.&quot ; And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn&#039 ; t do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, &quot ; That&#039 ; s it. I&#039 ; ll just go get a job.&quot ; And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, &quot ; Okay,&quot ; something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, &quot ; Okay, that&#039 ; s it, it&#039 ; s time to--&quot ; it&#039 ; s a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that&#039 ; s when I decided, &quot ; Okay if I go back to school,&quot ; which I definitely wanted to do, &quot ; I will study something that I want to.&quot ; And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, &quot ; Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We&#039 ; re just happy you&#039 ; re alive!&quot ; And I thought, &quot ; Well, I will study law,&quot ; so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, &quot ; Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,&quot ; and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there&#039 ; s a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie&#039 ; s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there&#039 ; s problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn&#039 ; t, I didn&#039 ; t really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, &quot ; Okay, we got to get out of here,&quot ; right? &quot ; We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.&quot ; So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We&#039 ; re like, &quot ; Okay, we got to get out of here!&quot ; And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I&#039 ; m recounting this because it&#039 ; s about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would&#039 ; ve left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, &quot ; There&#039 ; s a fight outside. We got to go!&quot ; So, we&#039 ; re running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we&#039 ; re running to the car, that&#039 ; s when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we&#039 ; d already heard, &quot ; Bang, bang, bang.&quot ; We&#039 ; d already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that&#039 ; s when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don&#039 ; t know if you&#039 ; ve never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don&#039 ; t know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn&#039 ; t even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that&#039 ; s kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, &quot ; Why does my arm hurt so bad?&quot ; And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Fuck, I got shot!&quot ; right? And everybody&#039 ; s like, &quot ; What, what, what!?&quot ; And so, I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Drive to hospital!&quot ; Because we can&#039 ; t call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I&#039 ; m in the car backseat and my sister&#039 ; s trying to tie a tourniquet and I&#039 ; m sitting here thinking &quot ; What just happened?&quot ; And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It&#039 ; s like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that&#039 ; s when I was like, &quot ; Oh my God, I can&#039 ; t believe just what happened.&quot ; And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, &quot ; Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.&quot ; And I was just like, &quot ; Ow!&quot ; It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn&#039 ; t as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that&#039 ; s what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, &quot ; No, I don&#039 ; t want to, I don&#039 ; t want to continue this.&quot ; Like, &quot ; If you go shoot up that guy, they&#039 ; re going to come back, shoot us up. Let&#039 ; s just end this here.&quot ; I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn&#039 ; t want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, &quot ; Let&#039 ; s just end here. I&#039 ; m going to trust the legal system. I&#039 ; m going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,&quot ; right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That&#039 ; s intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, &quot ; Oh, she&#039 ; s super lucky. She&#039 ; s super lucky.&quot ; Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, &quot ; Look at her X-ray. There&#039 ; s bullet matter, there&#039 ; s bone matter, there&#039 ; s tissue matter.&quot ; I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, &quot ; Oh, you see that?&quot ; And so, he was pointing, and he said, &quot ; That&#039 ; s her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would&#039 ; ve had to amputate her arm.&quot ; And then he goes, &quot ; Oh, you see that? That&#039 ; s her nerve.&quot ; So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He&#039 ; s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He&#039 ; s like, &quot ; So we&#039 ; re going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don&#039 ; t know how much mobility she&#039 ; ll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she&#039 ; ll have her arm. We won&#039 ; t have to cut it off and she&#039 ; ll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.&quot ; So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, &quot ; Oh, okay. So, I&#039 ; m lucky to be alive. I&#039 ; m lucky not to have amputation. I&#039 ; m lucky to have, not paralysis.&quot ; And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don&#039 ; t know why, but I remember him telling my parents &quot ; Two millimeters.&quot ; That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, &quot ; Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don&#039 ; t screw it up.&quot ; Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It&#039 ; s like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You&#039 ; re so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she&#039 ; s freaking out. She&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!&quot ; You know you watch on TV and it&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Let me know if you&#039 ; re cold!&quot ; Right? Like, because somebody&#039 ; s dying. And I was like, &quot ; I don&#039 ; t think I&#039 ; m dying sis[ter], I think it&#039 ; s just my arm. But I don&#039 ; t know if I&#039 ; m going to ever play volleyball again.&quot ; Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, &quot ; What are your goals?&quot ; I was like, &quot ; Well I want to play volleyball again.&quot ; And he was like, &quot ; I can&#039 ; t promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It&#039 ; s going to be how hard you work.&quot ; Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I&#039 ; m missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn&#039 ; t have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That&#039 ; s good to hear. So, you&#039 ; ve got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there&#039 ; s a lot of scar tissue in there. It&#039 ; s not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it&#039 ; s not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there&#039 ; s just too much scar tissue. So, it can&#039 ; t bend and it gets sore more easily. There&#039 ; s been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it&#039 ; s all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I&#039 ; m assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, &quot ; I will write with my right hand!&quot ; So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there&#039 ; s one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I&#039 ; m being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, &quot ; Oh gosh, if I could just change one person&#039 ; s life, it would mean everything,&quot ; right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; People study Vietnamese people?&quot ; It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. &quot ; Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.&quot ; So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that&#039 ; s why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there&#039 ; s something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, &quot ; Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you&#039 ; re my sociology professor.&quot ; And I will never forget. She&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Oh, I know you.&quot ; she&#039 ; s like, &quot ; You&#039 ; re a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; No,&quot ; and she said, &quot ; Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!&quot ; And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, &quot ; Wow! I feel so special.&quot ; So, I said, &quot ; Well, I came to ask you if there&#039 ; s any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.&quot ; (laughs) And she was like, &quot ; You want to go to law school, huh?&quot ; So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, &quot ; Do you want to work eighty hours a week?&quot ; And I was like, &quot ; No.&quot ; And she said, &quot ; Well, you know that&#039 ; s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I&#039 ; m just giving you a reality.&quot ; She was like, &quot ; Have you ever thought about being a professor?&quot ; I said, &quot ; No.&quot ; She said, &quot ; Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,&quot ; right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, &quot ; Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.&quot ; And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, &quot ; How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.&quot ; And I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Oh, wow.&quot ; So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, &quot ; I want you to present your paper at a conference. It&#039 ; s going to be at the college, and you&#039 ; ll be in front of hundreds of people, but don&#039 ; t worry, I&#039 ; ll be there. I&#039 ; ll be right there by your side.&quot ; So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don&#039 ; t know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, &quot ; Oh, we&#039 ; re so proud of you. You did so well!&quot ; And I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Oh my God.&quot ; (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I&#039 ; m sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, &quot ; Your daughter should be a professor.&quot ; And my parents like, &quot ; Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.&quot ; (laughs) Sheehan: It&#039 ; s nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor&#039 ; s Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. &quot ; Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor&#039 ; s now you can get in and finish your Master&#039 ; s in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you&#039 ; ll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.&quot ; And so literally she laid out this option for me. She&#039 ; s like, &quot ; If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.&quot ; So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, &quot ; Oh man, that&#039 ; s really what I want to do. I don&#039 ; t think I want to I go to law school anymore,&quot ; and my parents were like, &quot ; Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don&#039 ; t want to be a lawyer.&quot ; (laughs) &quot ; You&#039 ; re going to have to lie. You have to lie if you&#039 ; re a lawyer, do you want to do that?&quot ; That&#039 ; s my mom, right? Like, &quot ; Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.&quot ; So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that&#039 ; s a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can&#039 ; t hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I&#039 ; m like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn&#039 ; t what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Just forget about us. We&#039 ; re not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.&quot ; So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn&#039 ; t like, &quot ; Oh, you should totally make this your Master&#039 ; s degree study.&quot ; So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like &quot ; I&#039 ; m not going to tell anybody that&#039 ; s who I was. I don&#039 ; t want them to judge me. I don&#039 ; t want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.&quot ; I don&#039 ; t tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn&#039 ; t until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it&#039 ; s very full circle. So that&#039 ; s where I&#039 ; m at now. And that&#039 ; s kind of the work that I champion, and I&#039 ; m not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn&#039 ; t exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you&#039 ; ve had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that&#039 ; s a really good question, because there&#039 ; s so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, &quot ; We should just do away with prisons,&quot ; prison abolition, like, &quot ; We don&#039 ; t need prisons in society.&quot ; And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it&#039 ; s very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who&#039 ; ve done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It&#039 ; s like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It&#039 ; s a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there&#039 ; s other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they&#039 ; re out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don&#039 ; t think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who&#039 ; ve done long, long prison sentences. So, I&#039 ; m not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they&#039 ; ve done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don&#039 ; t think that that works. There&#039 ; s no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, &quot ; Well, you&#039 ; re done. We just need to be done with you in society.&quot ; So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that&#039 ; s a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we&#039 ; ve seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we&#039 ; re dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that&#039 ; s a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we&#039 ; re allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it&#039 ; s awful. I mean, let&#039 ; s look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They&#039 ; re not fully developed. We do stupid things when we&#039 ; re young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would&#039 ; ve gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would&#039 ; ve went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there&#039 ; s already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I&#039 ; m in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it&#039 ; s one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it&#039 ; s not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let&#039 ; s say there&#039 ; s a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I&#039 ; ve seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you&#039 ; re eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you&#039 ; re forty-eight years old. You&#039 ; ve missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we&#039 ; re incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there&#039 ; s a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn&#039 ; t really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I&#039 ; m not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would&#039 ; ve happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That&#039 ; s a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn&#039 ; t like an automatic, like, &quot ; Oh, you did that and so you get out,&quot ; but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, &quot ; Okay, you&#039 ; ve changed, and you&#039 ; ve rehabilitated, and you&#039 ; re no longer threat to society,&quot ; people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn&#039 ; t necessarily violent, let&#039 ; s say you--I&#039 ; m trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn&#039 ; t inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you&#039 ; re not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there&#039 ; s been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you&#039 ; re probably going do your full time. You&#039 ; re not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I&#039 ; m coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I&#039 ; ll guess I&#039 ; ll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you&#039 ; d like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it&#039 ; s 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It&#039 ; s not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don&#039 ; t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who&#039 ; s twenty years old, and she&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Well, I learned that on TikTok.&quot ; Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they&#039 ; re formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they&#039 ; re like, &quot ; Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!&quot ; I don&#039 ; t think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you&#039 ; ll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That&#039 ; s a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don&#039 ; t mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don&#039 ; t. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn&#039 ; t applied to any universities yet, I didn&#039 ; t qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, &quot ; Man, I&#039 ; ve got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?&quot ; And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that&#039 ; s different from university, but that&#039 ; s also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let&#039 ; s not discount it, given that we&#039 ; re going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we&#039 ; re not in person, right? But we&#039 ; re human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can&#039 ; t untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, &quot ; I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.&quot ; And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, &quot ; I&#039 ; m going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.&quot ; So, there&#039 ; s a financial benefit, there&#039 ; s the social benefit, there&#039 ; s the intimidation factor that is less because you&#039 ; re not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, &quot ; Oh my God, it must have been so scary.&quot ; (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, &quot ; Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives&quot ; by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or--? Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, &quot ; How come you weren't a pilot when you were already a pilot?&quot ; And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, &quot ; Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.&quot ; And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, &quot ; Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.&quot ; Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs ; two, it was warm (laughs) ; and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, &quot ; Go back to my own country,&quot ; you know, &quot ; Go back to your country.&quot ; And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I--I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, &quot ; Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,&quot ; and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, &quot ; Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,&quot ; right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was--you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you're in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, &quot ; Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,&quot ; and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, &quot ; They looked like gangsters,&quot ; and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, &quot ; Oh my God! We know him,&quot ; but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents--my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, &quot ; I did this like three years ago.&quot ; (laughs) Right? So I came home and I--and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, &quot ; Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now.&quot ; So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, &quot ; Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.&quot ; And my parents were like, &quot ; Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?&quot ; And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, &quot ; Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.&quot ; And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don't know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, &quot ; Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I'll just figure it out later and take the test.&quot ; Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it--or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking &quot ; Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.&quot ; And going more towards thinking &quot ; Well maybe I'll just get a job,&quot ; because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, &quot ; I don't know what I'm going to do.&quot ; And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, &quot ; That's it. I'll just go get a job.&quot ; And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, &quot ; Okay,&quot ; something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, &quot ; Okay, that's it, it's time to--&quot ; it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, &quot ; Okay if I go back to school,&quot ; which I definitely wanted to do, &quot ; I will study something that I want to.&quot ; And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, &quot ; Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!&quot ; And I thought, &quot ; Well, I will study law,&quot ; so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, &quot ; Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,&quot ; and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie's. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, &quot ; Okay, we got to get out of here,&quot ; right? &quot ; We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.&quot ; So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like--and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, &quot ; Okay, we got to get out of here!&quot ; And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, &quot ; There's a fight outside. We got to go!&quot ; So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, &quot ; Bang, bang, bang.&quot ; We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, &quot ; Why does my arm hurt so bad?&quot ; And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, &quot ; Fuck, I got shot!&quot ; right? And everybody's like, &quot ; What, what, what!?&quot ; And so, I'm like, &quot ; Drive to hospital!&quot ; Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking &quot ; What just happened?&quot ; And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, &quot ; Oh my God, I can't believe just what happened.&quot ; And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, &quot ; Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.&quot ; And I was just like, &quot ; Ow!&quot ; It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, &quot ; No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this.&quot ; Like, &quot ; If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here.&quot ; I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, &quot ; Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,&quot ; right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, &quot ; Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.&quot ; Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, &quot ; Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter.&quot ; I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, &quot ; Oh, you see that?&quot ; And so, he was pointing, and he said, &quot ; That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm.&quot ; And then he goes, &quot ; Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.&quot ; So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He's like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, &quot ; So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.&quot ; So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, &quot ; Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.&quot ; And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents &quot ; Two millimeters.&quot ; That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, &quot ; Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up.&quot ; Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, &quot ; Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!&quot ; You know you watch on TV and it's like, &quot ; Let me know if you're cold!&quot ; Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, &quot ; I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it's just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again.&quot ; Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, &quot ; What are your goals?&quot ; I was like, &quot ; Well I want to play volleyball again.&quot ; And he was like, &quot ; I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work.&quot ; Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, &quot ; I will write with my right hand!&quot ; So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, &quot ; Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything,&quot ; right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, &quot ; People study Vietnamese people?&quot ; It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. &quot ; Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.&quot ; So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, &quot ; Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.&quot ; And I will never forget. She's like, &quot ; Oh, I know you.&quot ; she's like, &quot ; You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?&quot ; And I said, &quot ; No,&quot ; and she said, &quot ; Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!&quot ; And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, &quot ; Wow! I feel so special.&quot ; So, I said, &quot ; Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.&quot ; (laughs) And she was like, &quot ; You want to go to law school, huh?&quot ; So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, &quot ; Do you want to work eighty hours a week?&quot ; And I was like, &quot ; No.&quot ; And she said, &quot ; Well, you know that's the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.&quot ; She was like, &quot ; Have you ever thought about being a professor?&quot ; I said, &quot ; No.&quot ; She said, &quot ; Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,&quot ; right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, &quot ; Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.&quot ; And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, &quot ; How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.&quot ; And I'm like, &quot ; Oh, wow.&quot ; So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, &quot ; I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side.&quot ; So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, &quot ; Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!&quot ; And I'm like, &quot ; Oh my God.&quot ; (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, &quot ; Your daughter should be a professor.&quot ; And my parents like, &quot ; Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.&quot ; (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. &quot ; Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.&quot ; And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, &quot ; If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.&quot ; So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, &quot ; Oh man, that's really what I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,&quot ; and my parents were like, &quot ; Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.&quot ; (laughs) &quot ; You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?&quot ; That's my mom, right? Like, &quot ; Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.&quot ; So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, &quot ; Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.&quot ; So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, &quot ; Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.&quot ; So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like &quot ; I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.&quot ; I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, &quot ; We should just do away with prisons,&quot ; prison abolition, like, &quot ; We don't need prisons in society.&quot ; And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, &quot ; Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society.&quot ; So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties ; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, &quot ; Oh, you did that and so you get out,&quot ; but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, &quot ; Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,&quot ; people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don't know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, &quot ; Well, I learned that on TikTok.&quot ; Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, &quot ; Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!&quot ; I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, &quot ; Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?&quot ; And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, &quot ; I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.&quot ; And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, &quot ; I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.&quot ; So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.xml HaThao_SheehanRobert_2022-04-19.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ha, Thao. Interview April 19, 2022 Description An account of the resource Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at MiraCosta College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-21 Subject The topic of the resource Education Gangs -- Texas -- Houston MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program Refugees -- Vietnam Transitions (Program) Victims of violent crimes Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-19 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thao Ha Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Houston (Tex.) Oceanside (Calif.) Vietnam Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Thao Ha Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history History Department internship Immigrant experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/35e9e4684adf94123fb801dc0efe5b35.pdf 4f2797a71fce1b3f3f8626ce7b872d70 PDF Text Text THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Thao Ha: Okay. Robert Sheehan: All right. Today is Tuesday, April nineteenth at 1:03 PM. I'm here with Dr. Thao Ha. Dr. Ha thank you for having me here today. Ha: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am excited. Sheehan: (laughs) Me as well. I would like to begin kind of just asking you a little bit about your childhood. When and where were you born? Ha: I was born in Saigon, Vietnam in [redacted], 1973. So probably today known as HoChi Minh City, but amongst us Vietnamese, we still say Saigon (laughs). Sheehan: (laughs) And so, assuming your parents are Vietnamese as well. Ha: Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So, at the time that we left Vietnam, it was on April thirtieth, 1975 at the fall of Saigon. So my father was a Vietnamese pilot for the South Vietnamese Air Force. And so, it was just me born at that time when we left. So, it was my mom and dad and myself and we came to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. So that's where we were processed in the United States as refugees. And then we first settled in San Antonio, Texas with a sponsor who took our family as well as several other refugees into the little neighborhood that we lived in. Sheehan: There must have been quite a story about getting out of Vietnam at the fall. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Ha: Sure. So, I was only eighteen months [old] at the time, so I have no recollection, but I talked to my parents of it and they've shared their experiences. And so, the couple of days before, April thirtieth, there was already kind of word that things were not going to go well. And so, people were preparing and my mom, her family grew up or they're in the rural part about sixty kilometers south of Saigon. So she was already in the city though, because it was not safe to be in the countryside. So, while she was in the city, my dad was doing his pilot stuff, and then he had her come to the Air Force base, the Tan Son Air Force Base, and kind of wait there. And then when things went down and everyone was evacuating, we were shuffled onto a C 130 Hercules, like a supply, kind of large cargo plane, which is the plane that my father flew and so, they told me stories about that moment when they were running through the airport, my dad was looking for my mom and me. There were bombs and missiles and explosions and Jeeps that would come by and pick up people. And some were hit by mortars and my mom was carrying me and she said that in one instance, when they had to kind of jump from the Jeep, she had to jump and she kind of had to keep me in her arms. And when she fell, she hit her knees and she didn't really know what was happening, but when they finally got on the plane, her pants were like blood-soaked because her kneecap had busted. And so, it was like very, you know, when I think about it from my parents' lens, I'm like, “Oh my God, it must have been so scary.” (laughs) And, she's got me the whole time and she said I was sick, so I apparently might have had measles at the time. So I was sick, I wasn't crying because I just, I guess she said I was kind of out of it. And so yeah, and then we flew from the air base to Côn Sơn Island and the pilots at the time thought they were going to leave the women and children there and then come back to the country to kind of continue. But while they were there, it was about three or four in the morning. So, we left April twenty-nineth and the morning of April thirtieth, three, four in the morning was when they got word that it was over and that they were to leave. So from there, from that Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 1 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 island they were directed to go to Thailand and land at the Air Force base there. And then from there, we came to the states. So that's the evacuation story, my parents. Sheehan: Wow. That's incredible. Did your father actually fly the plane that you were in? Ha: No, he did not fly the plane. He did tell me, kind of a story where--or that at that moment where they were running and they were looking at the planes, because there were several of them there for evacuation and, they were running towards one of them. And then he noticed that that it was kind of, that the area around it had not been damaged yet. And so, he directed the group that we were running with to go a different direction towards this other plane where there had been an explosion already, because the logic was that these targets were going hit new locations. So run to the area where it had already been like, explosions, and run away from the areas that hadn't had explosions. And so, sure enough, as they were running towards the plane that kind of had the explosions around it, the other plane exploded. The one that, it was a direct hit. My mom was telling me, “Oh, your dad kind of saved our lives” by just thinking about the way that artillery works and stuff like that. So yeah, those kinds of things that, you know, his pilot expertise was able to guide us. Sheehan: Yeah. He must have been an expert, because that sounds very counterintuitive to run towards the area that was all of the bombing going on. Ha: Yes, yes. And then to kind of have the state of mind to be thinking about that while you're running away from all the other things that are going on. Yeah. It was very impressive. Sheehan: It sounds like your father's kind of cool under pressure. Ha: Very, very, he's just a cool guy period. Really kind of mellow, you know, super chill man. So yes, now that you have me thinking about it, that might have been one of the reasons he was able to do that. Sheehan: And so your father was a pilot and what did your mom do? Ha: She was a seamstress by trade. So, she did not have any formal schooling, but at a young age, she had learned how to sew, and was working in a factory in the city at the time that she met my dad who was in pilot school or in the Air Force and training to be a pilot. And my father had trained in the U.S. at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio and Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi. So, there are stories of them meeting each other and then being separated while he trained in the states. Then he came back and that's when they got married, had me. And then a few years later we evacuated. Sheehan: And was it just you? Were you an only child or did you have brothers and sisters? Ha: Yeah, at the time we fled, I was--it was just me, when we came to San Antonio, our first stop, my sisters were born, so I have two sisters. And then we moved from San Antonio to Knoxville, Tennessee. And this was for my dad to like, wherever he could find work. We moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. Lived there for a year. Then we moved to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And so, my brother was born there in 1978. And then from Cedar Rapids, Iowa, we moved to Houston, Texas. And, so in the late seventies, there were a lot of machinist jobs that were available and my dad was able to land a machinist job in Houston. And so that's where we settled for a very, very long time. And my family's still there. Sheehan: Why did your father want to be a machinist if he was already a pilot? Did he just decide he was done flying or…? Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 2 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Ha: I, yeah, I asked him that too. I said, “How come you weren’t a pilot when you were already a pilot?” And so, I guess for pilot to--credentials, you have to have a log book of the hours that you flew to kind of like evidence that you have been flying. And so, he lost his log books and along with all the other pilots who, like why, why didn't they become pilots in the U.S.? Their log books were lost. They weren't, that's something they didn't take with them. So they would have to kind of start over if they wanted to be pilot in the U.S. Sheehan: I see. So, did that rub him the wrong way? Did he enjoy flying? How was making that transition for him? Ha: Yeah. I have to give a lot of credit to my dad for again, maybe his chill attitude in life, he was just like, “Well, I can't be a pilot, so we just got to figure out what I can do.” And they just, you know I think that's part of like the refugee experience for a lot of folks. If you talk to people in my parents' generation, you know, like, what do you do? You can't be bitter about it. You do what you can do, survive, you know, be grateful that you're alive, and take care of the family. And so whatever jobs is available is what you take. And I don't think he has any--I'm not sure, that was a good question. I'll have to ask him someday, but I do know that I think about it now, if he were a pilot would he be home as often? Like those kinds of things about family and being there for each other. So, who knows, I think the machinist job was something that he enjoyed very much. He did it for a very, very long time and he has a lot of lifetime friends from work. Sheehan: Sometimes things just seem to happen for a reason. So, it's one of those things. Did your mom also, did she continue working as a seamstress in the United States? Ha: Yeah. So, when we first came and we weren't really settled and we were moving around, she was raising us. When we did settle in Houston, and my dad had kind of like secured the job, then she started looking for work as a seamstress. So, her first seamstress job, she had gotten in sewing the little t-shirts that babies wear when they're newborns in the hospital. So she was contracting with some company or maybe she was hired by them. But her story was, she, all she did was like make baby t-shirts. (both laugh) And then so here's where the things go really well for my mom, occupationally is in her group of workers, there was in that hospital, there was an ophthalmologist who had developed and created these surgical eye patches that would be worn post-surgery for like a glaucoma and cataract surgery. His name is Dr. Goffman. And so, Dr. Goffman, in creating this eye patch he came to the supervisor of the seamstress group at the hospital and said, “Oh, can you recommend to me any of your seamstress? I want to get some samples for this eye patch garter.” Which was a cloth, and it literally looks like a garter. And you would wrap it around a metal shield that would have holes in it to wear on the eye. So that woman was a Korean American and she bonded with my mom. So, she referred my mom and my mom sewed a sample for him, and he really liked it. So, he gave her a contract to sew the first set of these surgical eye patch garters. And that was her gig. So she kept getting contract after contract from him because she was doing good work, and so my parents converted the garage into her workspace. And then in the late eighties, when there was an energy crisis, my dad, his company, his machinist company, gave their workers the option--they were either to be laid off, or moved to the outskirts of the city. So, his job was being moved like an hour out of town. So, he was looking for options. He didn't want to do that and uproot us. So, he made a pitch to the doctor to make the metal part of the eye patch because he knows metalwork machines. So then by the end of the eighties, my mom and dad were manufacturing surgical eye patches for hospital systems in the U.S. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 3 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Sheehan: That's really interesting. How they kind of leverage both their skills to make those eye patches. Ha: Yeah. So by that point, my parents were always home, always working together in the garage and, we were doing our thing in the home. But my parents were always around. Sheehan: So, as a young woman, how was that? Having your parents around at home all the time? Ha: So growing up in Houston was very, when I look back, there's a lot of good things about having a lot of Vietnamese in your community. So Houston was one of those cities where secondary migration had occurred for Vietnamese refugees. One, because it had jobs; two, it was warm (laughs); and three, it was affordable, right? So housing, food, the energy is there. So like gas was cheap. Everyone was talking about Houston. And so, an ethnic enclave had kind of formed there. So when I grew up, I had Vietnamese friends and there were Vietnamese kids in my school. There were Vietnamese grocery stores. So I feel very connected in many ways to my community. My parents spoke Vietnamese. And so I had learned the language, but the challenge for me was also being the oldest. And even though my parents were home they worked all the time. So it's not that they left us to our own devices, but they kind of trusted that we were going to do your homework and be good kids. And they did, they let us play outside. So there was trust there. I also was on a lot of sports teams. So my dad was apparently star volleyball player for the Air Force battalion that he belonged to. And he trained us when we were little kids, me and my sisters. And so I played volleyball growing up, played basketball. I was on the track team. So I was involved in sports. I didn't have, I mean, there was some bullying, there were some kids that were just not nice and calling me random racial epithets and slurs telling me, “Go back to my own country,” you know, “Go back to your country.” And just the things that you'll hear that a lot of refugees experience and immigrants experience. But I—I was kind of a rebel, so I (laughs), you know, I would really not take the bullying and walk away, even though my dad was always like, “Well, just turn the other cheek when you get bullied,” and stuff. So I got in a lot of fights when I was younger just trying to defend myself, defend my friends and whatnot. And so part of that then becomes, as a sociologist now, that mechanism of survival, right? For young immigrants and refugees. I saw a lot of my friends get caught up in forming groups to kind of defend ourselves and then that's when you get in, you have other elements of delinquency and parents who are not home and the poverty. And so I was surrounded by a lot of kids who formed gangs and in my neighborhood and in my high school there were a lot of racial tensions and racial conflicts, even in the high schools. So, we would kind of form our own little gang. And this is not like a law enforcement definition of a gang, organized or anything. But it was clearly a group of kids who had banded together and then kind of used that way of protecting from whatever elements were out there. But then, that's like that slippery slope. So then you get involved in other activities like skipping school, and then you get caught up in the other activities like shoplifting and then shoplifting leads you to the next thing. And the next day car boosting. And then there's a cycle of delinquency that can escalate in those situations. So, I found myself navigating both of those spaces, trying to do really well in school, hiding a lot of stuff from my parents, but then, had my friends that were gang members and then ended up with a boyfriend who was a gang member. And that was kind of the other life that that I lived growing up. So from my like coming of age, right? Middle school, high school, that was like the dual life that I was living. Sheehan: It does seem like there's a dichotomy. There's the Thao at home. And then there's the Thao not at home. And as the oldest child, did you feel any responsibility to care for your younger siblings at home while your parents worked? Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 4 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Ha: Yeah. So that was an expectation and that's a common expectation in Vietnamese families and a lot of other immigrant families as well, right? So if my sisters got in trouble, like I got in trouble, so I was definitely responsible for them. Responsible for watching out for them. Responsible even for their behaviors. So I did feel a lot of pressure. Now, luckily my sisters and I are close in age, and so we were not just sisters, but we were friends. And so, we socialized together. And my parents, if you talk to them, they'll tell you like, “Oh, it was okay for them to go out together,” right? Like if there's three of them, not one of them just running around getting in trouble. And you know, you'd have to interview them for why they made the decisions that they made, but we did form friendships with the same groups of people. So my sisters, while they were younger, and they were the ones that didn't get into the fights, because I would fight because I would defend them, they were hanging out with me in the same social circles. And so that that got us all caught up in that dual life as well, because we were doing well in school. And then we would like skip school sometimes to go hang out at the mall and hang out with our boyfriends or whatnot. And we would sneak out at night to go to the parties and the clubs and whatnot, and then come home, wake up, go to school, get your homework (laughs) done. And then you repeat the cycle. Yeah. So yes, I was responsible for my siblings. Yes, I will take ownership if they got into trouble, it was probably my fault. I'm going to say that to you. (both laugh) Sheehan: You kind of preempted my next question asking if your sisters would follow you into doing that. So it's kind of funny to hear that they did. I mean, maybe funny's not the right word, but it's interesting to see them kind of follow in your footsteps. Ha: You know in a lot of the delinquency and gang literature, there's an emphasis on kind of the pain, and the struggle, and the poverty, and the disconnect, right? That a lot of young people who don't see a lot of options for themselves, opting to make other decisions in delinquency. And so, there is that truth. And then there's another layer to that, right? And I think that young people, regardless if you're in the math club or if you're in a street gang. Youth, we want to have fun. And so, part of being in a gang affiliation, there's fun in that as well, but there's also a sense of protection that when you go out and you have fun, you're not worried about getting jumped or getting beat up or if somebody disrespects you, you have your whole crew behind you to kind of like back you up. So yeah, it was hard, there were hardships, but, no doubt, I'm sure my sisters--and I will confess, we had good times as well with our friends, you know? So I don't want to discount that in my honesty about growing up that way. Sheehan: And so that sense of protection you felt in being in a gang or group of people who were protecting each other, was that mostly against other Vietnamese gangs or gangs of other ethnic persuasions? Ha: Yeah. Great question. So, in high school it was—you know, middle school and high school it was more protection against non-Vietnamese kids. As we got older, then more gangs started to form around the city and they were always by neighborhoods. So, I grew up in the Southeast side of town in a particular neighborhood called Scarsdale. So, they were the Scarsdale boys or the Scarsdale gang, and it was kind of neighborhood related. Then there was the North Chink Posse, they were on the north side of town. And then there were Park Place Crew, which was in the--so these were gang affiliations named by the neighborhood you grew up in. And as the criminal activities started to escalate, right, into like home invasions, carjackings, drug dealing, shootings, as those started to escalate, then it became protection from other Vietnamese gangs. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 5 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Sheehan: And those escalations are pretty serious going from just hanging out and protection to home invasions. So, how did that make you feel? How did you navigate that world? Ha: Yeah, so where I grew up, my neighborhood, as I was saying was Scarsdale. And so, my high school, the guys that ended up forming gangs in that neighborhood we knew who they were. I wasn't necessarily affiliated with them through like being an active part of the gang, but we were friends, right? We knew we grew up together. We went to high school together, went to school and so we were somewhat protected in that way, because now you're in the neighborhood. Then my uncle, who is my dad's youngest brother, he immigrated in the eighties and he came as a teenager. So, without parents, and he's a teen, and his English is not strong at all. Now he's in middle school, you know, dropped into the U.S. school system and he struggled. And then my father, who's his older brother, but not a parent, also raising four kids and other brothers and siblings that he had sponsored--my uncle, kind of got lost in that. So he ran away and he joined the Park Place Gang. That's the other gang. And so, we were somewhat protected from that gang--like coming to invade, like rob our home or commit crimes against us because my uncle had become affiliated with that gang. And then there was the North Gang that I had mentioned, and that was the gang where I had met my boyfriend and then my sisters were affiliated with boys in that gang. So it was a weird protectionism that we had, right? By living in one neighborhood, having an uncle in another gang. And then we had boyfriends in this gang. So then there were a few other gangs that we knew we could be targets of. So you're constantly worrying about who you hang out with and where you hang out. And when you’re in a social setting who you don't want to mess with, and who you don't want to piss off, right? But then you also know that you occupy a certain space as well and what comes with that territory. So fortunately, my home, my parents had put bars, burglar bars, an alarm system. Each of us, my siblings, we wore a--I don't know how to describe it. It was a necklace with like a little panic button attached to it. And it was like an alarm, like an added feature for your home security system. Kind of like the things where you watch older people, the commercial, like, “Oh, I fallen and I can't get up,” and you press the button and it alerts the ambulance. So, we had the same thing, but we would have to wear it home. Walking home from school in case we were kidnapped or we were held by gunpoint. Because the gangs would do that, right? Somebody would approach their front door, they'd hold them by gunpoint. The family member would open the door and then they'd rush in and rob the home. So we had that. We had like the extreme security system. And yet there were a couple of times there were attempted home invasions at our home, but luckily, we did not--but I know so many of my friends whose homes were robbed. They were hog tied. They lost all their stuff. Stories of people being beaten, you know, violence. It was a very, very real thing in our community. Sheehan: That seems like a very traumatic experience to have to go through. Did you ever have to push your panic button or is that something you were lucky enough to never have to do? Ha: (laughs) Yeah, we were, I was lucky enough. I never had to deal with a panic button. But several times in the middle of the night our alarm system would go off and there would be a door that was jarred open or one time they had managed to pry the iron bar, but when they opened the glass part the alarm went off. So, there were a few scary moments. There was another moment my dad was in the driveway and he saw a car drive by and some like scary looking Vietnamese. That's how he described them, “They looked like gangsters,” and they were canvasing the street. So, my dad stayed up I think 24/7 that night with my uncle just making sure, and having our lights on and stuff. So, it was a time where I think the whole community, not just in Houston, but in any pocket of large Vietnamese American Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 6 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 settlement. Southern California, Northern California, the DC area, the eighties and the nineties were very, very violent, scary times for Vietnamese refugees. Sheehan: And having an uncle in a rival gang and then significant others or loved ones in another gang must have made family reunions a little bit tense sometimes, right? Ha: Well, we wish we had family reunions, Robert. We didn't do that, right? So, we never, I mean, I think our gatherings, there were sometimes the local churches would hold events and you would see rival gang members there. There are, if you look through kind of like the criminal histories of the locations, in Houston, in Southern California, or in Northern California, a lot of drive-by shootings, pool hall shootings, restaurant shootings, there was a famous case in--you remember the show America's Most Wanted? Sheehan: Yes. Yeah. Ha: It was the man who lost his son. And so he went on this, you know, created this show to look for FBI's most wanted. And so, I remember an episode where there was a Vietnamese kid from Houston who shot up a sandwich shop and several rival gang members had died, but that had stemmed from a shooting at a pool hall like months prior. So there was a cycle of violence upon violence upon, one shooting after another to avenge the death of another. And in that particular case, that guy took off to I think Missouri, and then he ended up in Canada. And when he went on the show, or where he was featured on the show, America's Most Wanted, I remember all of us were like, “Oh my God! We know him,” but we didn't know where he went. He really went missing and then they located him in Canada. But so that's kind of like the lived reality that I just--I remember so clearly and vividly from my childhood even, and then into adolescence. Sheehan: And so, I'd kind of like to circle back to your education. As you're going through all these social changes and hanging out with these gang groups, you also said you're doing well in school. But those two don't seem to maybe connect. So how did your education play into the rest of your life? Ha: Yeah. Thank you for that. I think if you were interviewing enough people, you might find that there were, there are a good number of us who were in that lifestyle and then doing well at school. So, I always did my homework. I studied, I was good in math. (laughs) I loved writing though and reading. I remember English being one of my favorite classes and by the time that I graduated high school, well, let me put it this way. Schooling was a struggle in middle school. After I got into a few fights, my parents-my dad moved us to a private school. So he took me out of the public system, put me in private school with my sisters and my brother. And it was a Baptist school. And the curriculum was so behind. So, I was doing the homework and I'm like, “I did this like three years ago.” (laughs) Right? So I came home and I-and again, I was frustrated because I was away from my friends, but I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't learning. And I came home and I told my dad, “Hey, I don't know, dad. Like, I don't know what you want from us. I'm sorry that we messed up. And I'm sorry I got into fights, but I feel like I'm getting dumb, right? Let me show you my homework. I was doing this homework in the fifth grade, I'm in the eighth grade now.” So, convinced him to put us back into public school, went back to public school and went into the high school and still did pretty well, was in honors English and whatnot. And then started to escalate, like getting into the bad elements, right? Of skipping school and whatnot. And so, when we got caught doing that, when my parents caught us doing that, they moved me to a different high school, a public school, but a different high school. So, I did have stints of truancy and whatnot, but I always Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 7 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 maintained my grades, Robert. So, I graduated high school with, what is that Cum Laude, something like that, top ten percent or whatnot. But when I came to college, that was the real struggle. That was the difficulty of not, I think what today we know of is first generation college students who don't have any clue what college is like. And that, choosing a major and trying to think about a career path is really, really difficult. And I wanted to study English. I wanted to be a writer. I thought, “Oh, I'd love to be like a journalist or an author.” And my parents were like, “Mm, you already know how to speak English. Why would you study English, right? What are you going to do with it?” And I didn't know how to answer that. So, I followed the typical, you know, “Go be a doctor, lawyer, nurse, or something.” And I changed my major to biology, thinking that I should go into the medical field. Now, at the time, I had received opportunities to go to flagship, the University of Texas at Austin as a major school, but my mom and dad wanted me to stay close to home, wouldn't let me leave. So, it was at the University of Houston, which is not a bad school at all. But you don’t know what would happen if that decision was different. But what I do know is since I stayed at the University of Houston, I was still too close to the trouble-making elements that I had already been attached to. So, I was going to college, but still had the gangster boyfriends and still partying at the clubs and the pool halls and whatnot. And not understanding what is really necessary to succeed in college and to manage your responsibility. So, I was like, “Oh, they don't take attendance? (laughs) Okay. I don't have to go to class. I’ll just figure it out later and take the test.” Because I told myself I was smart. So when that didn't work for me it became like a downward spiral in believing that I was not capable in college. But partly also I was studying something that I really didn't enjoy. And so, it played into my confidence and so it—or, it ruined my confidence. And then I started thinking “Well then maybe this is not the life. College is not for me.” And going more towards thinking “Well maybe I'll just get a job,” because I need to help my friends figure out what they're doing because now some of my friends are getting arrested, they are going to jail, they are getting shot. The women, the girls that I hung out with, they were getting pregnant and it was just, all these negative outcomes started to catch up with us. And it was a very, that was a very depressing time for me because I was like, “I don't know what I'm going to do.” And then I eventually, I think I failed organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology, all those high-level science classes. And then I tried the community college and I didn't do well there either. So I basically just stopped college. I was like, “That's it. I'll just go get a job.” And figure out how I can help make some money to help support my friends who were getting worse and worse and worse off. And then 1997 was when I ended up getting shot in a pool hall brawl. And so, in that moment (laughs) I was like, “Okay,” something like that will definitely have you reevaluate your whole life, right? And within the same month or so, my boyfriend, we were on a break at the time (laughs), but he had gotten caught up in something and had a long-term prison conviction as well. So, seeing him lose his life to incarceration, seeing some of my other friends lose their futures to other things. And then myself. It was just, “Okay, that's it, it's time to—" it's a reckoning, right? About what to do with my life and my education. And that's when I decided, “Okay if I go back to school,” which I definitely wanted to do, “I will study something that I want to.” And so, I did have enough courage at that time to tell my parents, and of course they knew what happened to me. So they were like, “Yeah, you do whatever you want to do. We're just happy you're alive!” And I thought, “Well, I will study law,” so that I can help my friends who were being caught up in the system and seeing how the system--the legal and the criminal system works. And maybe I can help in that way. So, either law or social work, right? I thought, “Oh, maybe I could be a social worker, maybe I would be a lawyer,” and help in that way. So sociology was my major. It Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 8 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 was also the only one that I could really get back into because I had like a 1.8 GPA (laughs) when I came back to school from my old transcripts. But that changed my whole educational trajectory because that was the field of study that I definitely felt I understood, but also that curriculum helped explain a lot of the challenges that I saw growing up and why things happen the way they happen and how we can change them. Sheehan: Could you tell me a little bit more about the moment that you were shot? How did that happen? Ha: (laughs) Sure. So it was just a typical weekend plan to hang out with friends and we like to shoot pool. And so, there's a pool hall in Houston called Slick Willie’s. Now, there are Vietnamese-owned pool halls. So, typically, when you think about pool hall violence, it often happens in those Vietnamese pool halls. So they are Vietnamese-owned, Vietnamese gangsters hang out there. And when the rival gangs see each other, there's problems. This one was more of an American pool hall. An established one. That has a very diverse crowd. But that particular night, there were a lot of Vietnamese. And, we were very used to the idea that when you see lots of Vietnamese on a Saturday night drinking and playing pool, something could happen, but I didn't, I didn't really register that. And so, when a fight did break out it was kind of automatic, like, “Okay, we got to get out of here,” right? “We need to leave. Somebody could come back and do a drive-by shooting. Somebody could have a gun right now.” So, I was already kind of prepared that something like that could happen. And one of my sisters was with me, my girlfriends were with me, one of my guy friends--and we started to see cue balls and cue sticks and beer bottles just like-and people punching and kicking each other. We're like, “Okay, we got to get out of here!” And we gathered our stuff and one of my girlfriends was in the bathroom. So, and I'm recounting this because it's about timing, right? Had she not been in the bathroom, maybe we would've left a little sooner. Who knows, right? But she was in the bathroom, had to run and go get her. And then, I was like, “There's a fight outside. We got to go!” So, we're running frantically. We get to the car in the parking lot. And as we're running to the car, that's when the shooting begins. So somebody had a gun in their car, ran to the car, this is according to police report, and started shooting in the parking lot. And so for me, I ran to the car. I had reached the car. I shoved my sister in because we'd already heard, “Bang, bang, bang.” We'd already heard the shots. And I shoved her in, my girlfriend was in the front, my guy friend was driving, and I reach over to close the door. And that's when I felt something, right? So, I shut the door and I thought, you don't know if you've never been shot before. How do you know what it feels? Right, right, right? But your adrenaline is going. And so, I shut the door and I thought, because when I felt the something, I thought that I had hit my elbow on the door, because it was like this thump, like this loud, like this just force on my elbow. And so, in that, I don't know, thirty seconds, one minute, I didn't even realize I got shot. I just thought my funny bone was messed up or banged up. So, I remember my friend peeling out because the gunfire had stopped and then he pulled out onto the street and that's kind of when we were kind of relaxed, not relaxed, but like not as tense anymore. And then I was like, “Why does my arm hurt so bad?” And I look and I pull up the sleeve of my shirt and then I have all this blood and this giant hole in my arm. So, I scream. I'm like, “Fuck, I got shot!” right? And everybody's like, “What, what, what!?” And so, I'm like, “Drive to hospital!” Because we can't call 9-1-1 at that point. So, my friend rushes us to the hospital and I'm in the car backseat and my sister's trying to tie a tourniquet and I'm sitting here thinking “What just happened?” And, then the pain is like, once you realize what happened, the pain starts rushing in. It's like, what is it? Psychosomatic connection, right? Your brain realizes what happened. It hurt so bad. So yeah, that's when I was like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe just Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 9 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 what happened.” And so, we get to the hospital in the ER and they take me in and, I think the most painful part from my memory was when I was already in and the X-ray technician, he was like, “Okay, move your arm like this and move your arm like that.” And I was just like, “Ow!” It was so painful Robert, and this so that he could take X-rays because then after that, they gave me the medication and they did whatever to ease the pain. But I just remember the moment of getting shot wasn't as painful as I remember. The moment that I realized it was painful, but not as painful as when the X-ray tech was trying to take pictures. (laughs) And so yeah, and that's what happened. And then the police came to the hospital, took our statements. We then had to do a police lineup, after I was released from the hospital. And then, we became witnesses in the case. And I remember a period of time when we were being threatened, right? To not testify. And also then my uncle, my brother, my friend, wanting to do retribution, you know? And I was just tired at that point. I said, “No, I don't want to, I don't want to continue this.” Like, “If you go shoot up that guy, they're going to come back, shoot us up. Let's just end this here.” I just was looking around and seeing how everyone around me was. Just our lives were not, they were not good. And so, I worried. I didn't want my brother to get more caught up into anything. Anyone, my uncle, I know he was already in some stuff, but for him to get caught up in another thing. And so, I said, “Let's just end here. I'm going to trust the legal system. I'm going to go testify, and whatever happens to the shooter, let it happen,” right? And so, he did go to prison for the incident. Sheehan: That's intense. Ha: (laughs) Sheehan: So, but that was the, kind of the impetus for you to go back and change that course of your life. Ha: Yeah. I remember the surgeon talking to my mom and dad and telling them how super lucky I was. I was on the morphine or something, so I was kind of half awake, half asleep, but I remember hearing, “Oh, she's super lucky. She's super lucky.” Because it was a hollow point bullet. So, on impact, it kind of shattered everything. He said, “Look at her X-ray. There's bullet matter, there's bone matter, there's tissue matter.” I remember seeing the X-ray and there were just dots everywhere around, you know, my arm, my elbow. And he said, “Oh, you see that?” And so, he was pointing, and he said, “That's her artery. So, all of the pieces that exploded missed her artery. And if it had pierced artery, I would've had to amputate her arm.” And then he goes, “Oh, you see that? That's her nerve.” So, all the pieces were around the nerve, but the nerve did not have sever damage. He’s like, if that had been severed, she would be paralyzed, right? He's like, “So we're going to try our best to reconstruct her surgery. We don't know how much mobility she'll have based on how she does for physical therapy, but at least she'll have her arm. We won't have to cut it off and she'll have a feeling in her hands, and her arms. It might take a while to come back.” So, I remember hearing that and then feeling, “Oh, okay. So, I'm lucky to be alive. I'm lucky not to have amputation. I'm lucky to have, not paralysis.” And that context kind of made me feel like I really did make it out. Like lucky. It was very fortunate how I experienced that, because it could have gone sideways. So many other ways. And I don't know why, but I remember him telling my parents “Two millimeters.” That was the distance between some of the shrapnel and the artery and the vein. So, when I went back to school, I had my notebook, and I drew this line that was two millimeters in width. And it was just like this reminder (laughs) like, “Always look at this and you better succeed because the universe or God or whoever we believe in, the higher power, gave you another chance. (laughs) So don't screw it up.” Sheehan: (laughs) A little bit of pressure now. You going to succeed. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 10 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Ha: It's like self-imposed, yes, pressure from this incredible experience. Sheehan: How did it affect your volleyball and basketball playing? Ha: Oh my gosh. You're so sweet to ask. So true story, true story. We were in the car, my sister was in the car with me and she's freaking out. She's like, “Okay, just breathe! Keep your eyes open!” You know you watch on TV and it's like, “Let me know if you're cold!” Right? Like, because somebody's dying. And I was like, “I don't think I'm dying sis[ter], I think it’s just my arm. But I don't know if I'm going to ever play volleyball again.” Because I really felt like it was shattered. So, when I went to the therapist, my physical therapist and he was like, “What are your goals?” I was like, “Well I want to play volleyball again.” And he was like, “I can't promise you that, with the extent of your damage, you may not even be able to open a door. It's going to be how hard you work.” Because the radial head had to be extracted. So that bone was just shattered into too many pieces. So, I'm missing that radial head that connects the two bones. So, my arm strength is right now based on the tendon and the muscle. So, yeah, I worked really hard and I remember for six months I didn't have feeling in my fingers. I was limp wristed for about six months. And then I started to slowly be able to lift my wrist and to lift my fingers and press a stapler. And I mean it was very, very slow. But over time I was able to get a brace and work out again, exercise again, and play volleyball again. (both laugh) Sheehan: That's good to hear. So, you've got most of your mobility back then? Ha: I have the best of my mobility that I think I could ask for given that my arm is, there's a lot of scar tissue in there. It's not going to--so this is the straight arm, right? And then this is the shot arm. So, you can see how, it's not full extension and then flexion. So, I can do this but I--this is the farthest that I can flex to reach. So sometimes trying to reach stuff like that. I have to do it with my left arm because there's just too much scar tissue. So, it can't bend and it gets sore more easily. There's been some moments where the stability is not as strong as the left and this is my dominant arm, my right arm. But it's all good. I can still do everything that I need to do. (laughs) Sheehan: So how was it going back to college and I'm assuming you had to learn how to write with your left hand, is that what you had to do? Ha: I did have to learn to write with my left hand when I went back to college. But by then luckily, boy, we had computers and laptops and tape recorders and things like that. And I had been able to write again with my right arm. So being my stubborn self, I was like, “I will write with my right hand!” So, I practiced a lot. And so yeah, when I came back to school, I was a fully able student when I returned. Sheehan: And did you choose sociology or law? Which one? Ha: So, I chose sociology as a pre-law major and they often say that there's one person who can change their life. And so, when I, as I'm being a teacher and professor myself, I often think, “Oh gosh, if I could just change one person's life, it would mean everything,” right? Because this one woman, she really was the catalyst for the whole change in the trajectory of my life. And she was a sociology professor. She was Mexican American, and I took a sociology of the family class with her. And I remember the very first time ever hearing about Vietnamese refugees in a sociology class. So, she was talking about family dynamics. Then she had us reading this chapter on Vietnamese families. I'm like, “People study Vietnamese people?” It was just mind blowing to me. It dawned on me. “Well, huh, okay. Immigration, yeah, yeah, okay.” So, she had us reading immigration stories and stuff. So that's why I think curriculum that connects Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 11 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 with our students lived experiences is so powerful because once we feel like there's something that we feel connected to we have this keen interest. So, I was brave enough to go to her office hours and say, “Oh, hi, my name is Thao and you're my sociology professor.” And I will never forget. She's like, “Oh, I know you.” she's like, “You're a natural sociologist. Do you record my lectures?” And I said, “No,” and she said, “Yeah, because your essay exams are like incredible!” And just the fact that she knew that, I was like, “Wow! I feel so special.” So, I said, “Well, I came to ask you if there's any kind of like volunteer or internships that I could do because I want to go to law school.” (laughs) And she was like, “You want to go to law school, huh?” So, it then she was the first person who had a conversation with me about careers and the reality of careers and questions about why I wanted to do it and options and other alternatives. She said, “Do you want to work eighty hours a week?” And I was like, “No.” And she said, “Well, you know that’s the potential that you could be working if you became a lawyer. Nothing wrong with that. But I'm just giving you a reality.” She was like, “Have you ever thought about being a professor?” I said, “No.” She said, “Well, you only have to work sixty hours a week,” right? But it is flexible, and so she started to explain to me a different career options. And so that was the moment where I said, “Oh man, okay, I really respect this woman.” And then she gave me an opportunity for [an] internship. She said, “How about you volunteer this summer, I have this immigration project, you can go interview your own community.” And I'm like, “Oh, wow.” So she put me in as an undergraduate to research Vietnamese immigration history in Houston and it became a working paper in the center. And then that gave me other opportunities to meet other professors who brought me on for other research projects. So as an undergrad, I was already getting research experience. So, then my parents, right? It was like trying to explain to them what sociology was. And that same professor, she said, “I want you to present your paper at a conference. It's going to be at the college, and you'll be in front of hundreds of people, but don't worry, I'll be there. I'll be right there by your side.” So, I invited my parents and then I started my presentation, I remember having so many nerves and shaking in my voice then, as I started to speak, I don't know, something took over me and apparently it went very well. And that was the first moment my parents were like, “Oh, we're so proud of you. You did so well!” And I'm like, “Oh my God.” (laughs) Sheehan: So that was, I'm sorry, go ahead. Ha: No. Yeah. And they met my professor, and she was like, “Your daughter should be a professor.” And my parents like, “Okay. Yes, yes. You be a professor.” (laughs) Sheehan: It's nice that they came around to that acceptance of it. Ha: Yeah. Sheehan: And so, you graduated with your Bachelor's Degree in Sociology. And is wanting to become a teacher what made you want to go all the way through getting a PhD as well? Ha: Yes. So that same professor had outlined for me. “Okay. If you graduate with your Bachelor's now you can get in and finish your Master's in two years, you can get your PhD in three to five years, and then you'll be a professor and we need more Asian American professors because we need research in that area.” And so literally she laid out this option for me. She's like, “If you want to apply to law school, go ahead and take the LSAT, see how you do, and then make your decision then.” So, I did look into taking the LSAT, but her planting the seed of me potentially being like her. I was like, “Oh man, that's really what Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 12 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 I want to do. I don't think I want to I go to law school anymore,” and my parents were like, “Yeah, lawyers are liars. So, you don't want to be a lawyer.” (laughs) “You're going to have to lie. You have to lie if you're a lawyer, do you want to do that?” That's my mom, right? Like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. You good point Mom.” So, that pathway-- graduate school was set as soon as I had done that first summer research project. Sheehan: Kind of circling back to what you said before, how you were looking at sociology or the law to help your friends who were involved in gangs. Is that something you still are a part of? Is that something you use your degree for? Ha: Yeah. So that's a great question. I think the hard part of that time period was realizing that you have to fully adapt a new identity. So, I never saw myself as a college student, always in my mind was like part of a gang or however you would see yourself as a young person. And one of the things that I had told myself is, in order to change my life, I have to let it go. I have to let go. I mean, I can't hang around the same people. I cannot go to the same places anymore. Then part of that made me feel like I had to disconnect. To become somebody different. I mean, now in hindsight, thirty years later, twenty years later, I'm like, I could have still managed both identities, but it just wasn't what I did at the time. So, I intentionally remember not contacting those friends. My boyfriend at the time, my loved one, he realized that he was going to be in for a long time. And he's like, “Just forget about us. We're not a reality anymore, so just let it go and move forward. Move on.” So, I let that go. I moved on, I let go of the friendships. My uncle ended up in prison, so it was like he went away. And so that part of my identity, I pretty much squashed it. So, in this period where I was going to graduate school, I had dabbled in studying criminology, right? But I remember I had this one incredible project that I had written a proposal for. And I had looked up data on Asian American delinquency, and gang affiliation, and crime, and stuff like that. And I got a good grade on it, but my professor wasn't like, “Oh, you should totally make this your Master's degree study.” So, I was more looking for guidance from my professors. And so, the one area that was loudly communicated to me was immigration studies. So I focused on that, and it was more a focus of understanding the experiences of Vietnamese refugees. The kind of ways that they settled, and where they settled, and why they did the jobs that they did. And so, I focused on that because it was so that was what I think we needed at the time. Fast forward, years later, as I became more comfortable, and for a period of time, Robert, I never even told people about my past, right? It was almost kind of shameful. Like “I'm not going to tell anybody that's who I was. I don't want them to judge me. I don't want people to know that I have somebody, a relative in prison or that my first love is still in prison, and I still think about him.” I don't tell people that. So, it was almost a forgotten part of my life. And it wasn't until later on that I came full circle and started working with people in the California system who were connected to students who had come out of prison, formally incarcerated students, prison education, that I realized that I had let go of something that was very important to me. Maybe for my own survival, maybe for fear, and shame, and ridicule. And then I came back. And so now I do work in those areas that support prison education, support reentry. People who come out of prison, how do we think about their rehabilitation? How do we think about prison programs that are rehabilitative? I reconnected with my old friends who were in prison, and I got to witness one of them come home, so it's very full circle. So that's where I'm at now. And that's kind of the work that I champion, and I'm not scared anymore to tell about my history and the reality of those Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 13 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 experiences that I think sometimes for Asian cultures we pretend that doesn't exist because we want to be the model minority. (laughs) Sheehan: And so, you've had experience on both sides of the judicial system, as a witness, as part of a gang, as working in sociology. What do you see as the future? How do we help people in those situations or how do we work to make things better? Ha: Yeah, boy, that's a really good question, because there's so many pieces. You know if you were to ask me, structurally, politically, what are some of the ways that we can make things better? I am a staunch supporter of getting rid of prisons for-profit. As a model for how they are operated and run because it drives the incentive to keep having prisoners, right? Now, there are also people who are like, “We should just do away with prisons,” prison abolition, like, “We don't need prisons in society.” And I think in a utopian way, I think that would be beautiful. If we could have the systems in society so that we could have maybe restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration for wrongdoings. But the reality is that is not the current way that human interaction works in our society. Crime is existent and it's very real. And if you talk to guys and gals who've done prison time for very, very, heinous crimes, some of the most violent crimes, they will tell you that time in prison was good for them. That they needed that. Did they enjoy it? Did they want to go to prison? No, right? And again, let me take that back. Some of those gang members did want to go to prison. It's like a badge of honor to be incarcerated, right? It's a badge of honor to run a prison gang or be part of a prison gang. So, there's other ways of thinking about that. But in general, that makes it more complicated for me to think about prison abolition, because I hear from these people that during that time that they were taken away from society, they had time to reflect and were taken away from the bad elements. And so, the key here then is rehabilitation, right? How do we adopt systems and strategies and laws and policies that support people once they're out? Because they have paid their dues and they have emotionally, mentally changed who they are, right? They don't think the way that they thought as before, as criminality, right? They want to do the right thing. They want to give back. They want to make amends. They want to pay back for whatever debts they feel they owe society. These are people who've done long, long prison sentences. So, I'm not ready to say we should do away with prison. I think there is some inherent value in giving people time to think about what they've done. But now then, life sentences for youth, I don't think that that works. There's no reason to take someone who was so young and committed even the worst crime, the worst of crime, even murder right. And say, “Well, you're done. We just need to be done with you in society.” So yeah, lifetime sentences for youth I think that's a waste of talent and potential that I know exists. Because we've seen people who have been able to come out, even after having life sentences, and do great things. So, I believe in the good, potential of people who can change as well. Education, I mean, prison education right now is at the forefront in the state of California, and they have prison education in other states too. So as much as we like to rag on Texas, as like some Republican backward stink hole or whatever, and their prison systems have lots and lots of problems too, but they have strong prison education systems that allow for folks to get credentials and things like that, skills. But more importantly, for folks to feel like they have something to strive towards. Purpose, right? So now we're dabbling into psychology where if you give someone purpose, or if someone finds their purpose, that's a goal that they work towards and they wrap themselves towards that end game. So yeah, some of those are some of the big things that I think are important in that conversation about crime and society and our system. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 14 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 Sheehan: And so, with the for-profit prisons, it seems like there is an incentive, like you said, to keep people prisoner. Does that also include people who were potentially wrongfully convicted? Ha: Oh yes. Wrongful convictions, but also misdemeanor crimes, drug crimes. For a long, long time, we locked away people for marijuana crimes and now we're allowing people to own dispensaries. Like that backward thinking. Immigrant detention, right? Immigrant detention is a huge profit-making enterprise for companies that run that model. So, they have incentives to influence harsher laws, harsher punishments, to criminalize behaviors that we have to question as a society. Are they really offenses that we want to incarcerate people for? Juvenile detention and juvenile prisons for-profit, it's awful. I mean, let's look at child psychology and child development and understand young people. They're not fully developed. We do stupid things when we're young. And those are mistakes that could cost some youth, a lot of black and brown youth, to get caught up in the school-to-prison pipeline. So, when we have school detention facilities run for profit, the motivation is to put these kids in there for any offense, right? If that existed when I was in high school, I probably would've gone in that pipeline. Fighting in school, instead of detention and these other punishments that I received, I would've went to juvenile detention. Then that takes me out of school. It labels me. And then I see myself now as part of the problem. So, I come out, there's already things against me, and then now I get sucked in, and now I'm in an adult detention center. So yeah, I know the challenges that exist, and why people say government-run institutions are inefficient and whatnot, but the research shows us that even with those challenges, they can be mitigated with just a few changes structurally, policy-wise. But for-profits? Yeah, it's one of those institutions that just should not be for-profit. Sheehan: And did you have any experience yourself with friends or family members being incarcerated for misdemeanors or wrongfully convicted or anything like that? Ha: Yes. Yes. I mean, one of the ways that those kinds of organizations can influence policy is to have harsh sentences. So even if it's not a wrongful conviction, it could be aggravated assault and the philosophy of well, how long should somebody do time for aggravated assault? And then, let's say there's a weapon involved. So now weapons charges make it even harsher. Is it ten years? Is it forty years? Is it sixty years? Is it a life sentence, right? So, when you have an incentive to keep people in--to get people in, you also have an incentive to keep them in for a long time. And so, in my experience, I've seen people go in in Texas, in the 1990s, right at the height of like the violence and stuff. And my friends were going in, you know, misdemeanor crimes and getting ten years. First offense, drug offenses, ten years automatic for a first offense. First offense of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, sixty years. I mean, sixty years is basically life. If you're eighteen [years old] and you get a sixty-year sentence, your first chance for parole is at thirty [years]. Now, you're forty-eight years old. You've missed out your entire life, adulthood. How do you catch up when you come out, you know? So yeah, the sixty-year aggravated assault with a daily weapon is, what my loved one had been given, and maybe ten or fifteen years after that. So that was in the nineties; by 2010, people were realizing, we're incarcerating so many people, the population is booming, we need to do something about this. And then they change the sentences. So, if you committed the same crime in 2010, you get ten years, right? So those things that I witnessed, and those people who lived those real experiences, there's a lot of pain in knowing that it wasn't really something about what you did. It was how the system was set up, and what the rules were at the time, and how your life got shaped by it. So, to know that someone that I love very dearly, spent his life in prison for something that would have--did he really deserve a life sentence for shooting in a crowd and not killing anybody? I mean, and I'm not condoning what happened, right? But does that punishment fit Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 15 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 the crime? Is it cruel and unusual punishment? Those are the philosophical questions we have to ask ourselves when we look at how the laws are set up. Sheehan: And so, in 2010, as people are reevaluating the different sentencing and maybe some sentencing is being reduced. Is there any sort of allocation made for people who are in prison for time served? Did they get their sentence equated to something that would've happened or are they stuck with what they have? Ha: That's a great question. That depends on the state. So, in California, there were laws about earned time and good behavior and credit and things like that. And so, you could receive sixty years and then do twenty and then have opportunity for parole. So, it wasn't like an automatic, like, “Oh, you did that and so you get out,” but you get a chance to see the parole board. And as a parole board says, “Okay, you've changed, and you've rehabilitated, and you're no longer threat to society,” people get released. But in Texas, that was not the case for certain type of offenses. So, in Texas, there are offenses called 3G and that classification meant that you committed a violent crime. So even if it wasn't necessarily violent, let's say you--I'm trying to think of some cases that I remember. Where you didn't inflict violence onto anyone, but a gun just happened to be there. The presence of the gun made it an aggravated felony. So, if you were convicted of any aggravated felony, you're not eligible for that earned credit. So, in the state of Texas, there's been lobbying by different organizations to not change that, right? Families, however, have been pleading with the state legislature to please consider earned time even for violent offenders. And that has been unsuccessful every two years that the legislature has come up. So, to answer your question, it just depends on the state. And what the state laws are for state crimes. Federal laws are going be dictated by federal crimes and punishment are dictated by federal laws, but most of these state crimes, if you committed a violent offense in Texas, you're probably going do your full time. You're not going to get any like credit for good behavior. Sheehan: I see. I'm coming down to the end of my questions here. So, I'll guess I'll just wrap up by asking, is there anything I should have asked? Is there anything that you'd like to talk about? Ha: I would love to talk about the value of education. And I know, today it's 2022 and education is very expensive. University tuition is just incredibly, unbelievably unattainable in many ways, people are taking on huge debts. I want to see that change. I want to see education be more accessible to people, but I also know that having an education is so valuable in many ways. It's not just about getting a job. I mean, although it is, and earning a living wage and those important economic things. But I think going through the educational experience is an opportunity for people to discover themselves. What are your strengths? What are the things that you enjoy doing? How do you use your mind to problem solve? You can probably learn that in other ways as well. And education is not the only way or the only space. I guess you could do that on YouTube these days. (laughs) I don’t know, maybe, or TikTok. I learned a lot of stuff from my niece who's twenty years old, and she's like, “Well, I learned that on TikTok.” Okay, great. But the value of being educated is powerful because I saw the way that it changed how I saw myself. But in the students that I work with and the people that I work with, who, you know, are former drug addicts, or they're formerly incarcerated, or they were foster youth. Or, maybe not, maybe they were privileged and came from a family of wealthy parents. But every single one that has that moment where they're like, “Oh, I found what I want to do! Oh, I found what I want to study! Oh, I love challenging myself!” I don't think you can put a price on that. So, I just want to vouch for education, and being Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 16 2022-05-11 �THAO HA TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-19 educated, and finding purpose. Finding your purpose. Because once you find that, all other things are going to fit into your pathway of where you'll go in life. So, I just wanted to vouch for that. (laughs) Sheehan: That's a great topic. Actually, it sparked another question in my mind, if you don't mind. As a community college professor, what does college offer that something like YouTube or TikTok offer in terms of education that those other platforms don't. Ha: Thank you. I love teaching at a community college. I know when I had talked to my professor, that was not what she had in mind for me. She had in mind I was going be at a university and doing research and stuff like that. And I appreciate her for that. But I fell into community college teaching because that was what I did during the time I was writing my dissertation. So, I hadn't applied to any universities yet, I didn't qualify. You got to finish your PhD. But I wanted to get a job. I needed money. And so, when I got a community college teaching job, I just was so taken in by how small the campus was, right? Compared to my university experience. And how the classrooms were much more personable. I remember taking university classes, there were like three hundred people in my class, and everybody talked to the TA [Teaching Assistant]. Nobody wanted to talk to the professor. And it was just a different dynamic. I remember thinking to myself, “Man, I've got a community college classroom opportunity. What can I do with it?” And so, I think the value of community college and learning at a community college, that's different from university, but that's also different from getting your information online, or the internet, or YouTube, or even these giant platforms that give free classes, Masterclass and all of that. I think is that opportunity for human interaction. Let's not discount it, given that we're going through this pandemic and you and I, Robert are meeting on Zoom, and we're not in person, right? But we're human beings, and the psychology of humans and the sociology of human interaction. We can't untangle centuries, thousands of years of DNA, right. Built into the human condition. We need social interaction. And so, what I see from even teaching my own students, who have said to me, “I took one of your online classes, it was really cool. I did learn something, but this semester I have you in-person. And I love it so much. Thank you so much for making class so dynamic and giving us the opportunity to meet other people and interact.” And so, there is that opportunity to build community, to connect with others, to create bonds that might carry you through your college years and then maybe beyond. And community college is much more affordable. So, a lot of people are like, “I'm going to take my first two years or three years and get my general education out of the way.” So, there's a financial benefit, there's the social benefit, there's the intimidation factor that is less because you're not surrounded in a sea of hundreds of people in your class. You can get that one on one with your classmates and the teachers. And your community college is supposed to be about your community. So, there should be activities, and workshops, and events that are accessible to people in the community. So those are all the valuable things about going to a community college. Sheehan: Wow. Thank you. And thank you for participating in this oral history interview. Ha: Thank you so much. Transcribed by Robert Sheehan 17 2022-05-11 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ha, Thao. Interview transcript. April 14, 2022. Description An account of the resource Dr. Thao Ha is a Vietnamese refugee who has become a sociology professor at Mira Costa College. Her path to personal, and professional success wound its way through traditional immigrant struggles as well as gang violence. In this interview Dr. Ha discusses her families escape from Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War, her childhood in the United States, her involvement around gangs, and her educational pathway. This oral history was made possible with generous funding from the Ellie Johns Foundation. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Thao Ha Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robert Sheehan Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-14 Subject The topic of the resource Education Gangs -- Texas -- Houston MiraCosta College -- Transitions Program Refugees -- Vietnam Transitions (Program) Victims of violent crimes Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam) Houston (Tex.) Saigon (Vietnam) San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">in copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Thao Ha License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-21 Type The nature or genre of the resource text Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history History Department internship Immigrant experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Christine Frazier Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lucy HG Solomon OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 HG Solomon, Lucy. Interview April 17, 2025 SC027-079 57:03:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was conducted in partnership with the CSUSM History Department, and made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm California State University San Marcos -- Faculty ; California State University San Marcos. School of Arts ; California State University San Marcos. Biology ; California State University San Marcos. Cognate Collective ; Physarum polycephalum ; Artificial intelligence ; Art and artificial intelligence ; Interdisciplinary approach in education ; Border Art Collective ; Oileán Ruaidh (Ireland) ; Mars Rover Project ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; San Marcos (Calif.) ; Environmentalism in art ; California State University San Marcos. Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory Lucy HG Solomon Christine Frazier sound HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17.wav 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4e72dfbca93bb6ce80c3ebed9f23b333.mp4 Other video English 1 Introduction Christine Frazier, a graduate student at CSUSM interviews Lucy HG Solomon about her work as an artist and a professor. CSUSM ; Lucy HG Solomon ; art 0 ["[\"\"]"] 33 League of Imaginary Scientists, NASA, and the Mars Rover Project on Oileán Ruaidh Lucy HG Solomon discusses her work with the League of Imaginary Scientists, NASA and the Mars Rover Project on the Irish Island, Oileán Ruaidh. She discusses how Oileán Ruaidh resembled Mars with its red soil, and the significance of such work. She created a reverse NASA study where she examined the future of the island and asked the same questions that the rovers were asking on Mars. They were asking questions such as: Is Earth going to look like Mars in the future? League of Imaginary Scientists ; NASA ; Mars Rover ; Mars ; Oileán Ruaidh ; Lucy HG Solomon 0 [""] 389 Planet Mentorship Project and Juliana Goodlaw-Morris, Sustainability Manager at CSUSM Lucy HG Solomon discusses the Planet Mentorship Project which she worked on with Juliana Goodlaw-Morris, the Sustainability Manager at CSUSM. She discusses thinking about how students relate to the planet. It is an interdisciplinary project which pairs mentorship, art making, and community building together. Ariel Stevenson ; Peace Corps ; Juliana Goodlaw-Morris ; Planet Mentorship Project ; data visualization 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 836 Student involvement in Data Stacks at the Kellogg Library Professor HG Solomon discusses motivating students, and how it's really rewarding to have students have their own research and creative work acknowledged through a grant. Students have contributed to the art exhibition Data Stacks, which is an exhibition space in Kellogg Library Kellogg Library ; Data Stacks ; CSUSM library ; grants ; art exhibitions 0 [""] 897 Cesar Baio at the University of Campinas in Brazil Professor HG Solomon discusses her work with Cesar Baio at the University of Campinas in Brazil. She earned a Fulbright Scholarship to go to Campinas in Brazil in 2018. They also began the art collective titled Cesar and Lois. Her interdisciplinary work focuses on art and science while integrating technology. Cesar Baio ; University of Campinas ; Brazil ; Fulbright ; Artificial Intelligence ; Cesar and Lois ; art collective 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 981 Lumen Prize for Artificial Intelligence Professor HG Solomon discusses how she won the Lumen Prize in her art exhibition that to made a statement about what technology serves. &#13 ; She discusses questioning the trajectory of technology, and reflecting on AI usage. &#13 ; AI ; artificial intellegence ; Lumen Prize ; technology use 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1167 Nature as a blueprint for technology HG Solomon discuses her work questioning what would happen if nature were the blueprint for technology. She worked with Dr. Betsy Read in the Biology Department at CSUSM. Biology ; Betsy Read ; CSUSM ; AI ; artificial intellegence ; nature 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 1195 Using the yellow slime mold, Physarum polycephalum as a tool to explore AI development and logic. Professor HG Solomon discusses what kinds of logic that governs AI development, while exploring the logic of Physarum polycephalum, a yellow slime mold. She integrates the logic of Physarum polycephalum into city development models. Palo Alto ; Physarum polycephalum ; AI ; Artificial intelligence ; yellow slime mold ; CSUSM 0 [""] 1356 Data Lab, which is the Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory Professor HG Solomon describes the Data Lab, which is the Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory that has four students work on art projects that bridge art and science. The Data Lab partnered with Dr. Betsy Read in the Biology Department at CSUSM. Data Lab ; Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory ; Dr. Betsy Read ; Biology Department at CSUSM 0 [""] 1550 Professor Sandra Doller- CSUSM Professor Professor Sandra Doller collaborated with Professor HG Solomon on the text that was tweeted from the Physarum polycephalum project. Professor Sandra Doller ; Physarum polycephalum 0 [""] 1628 Plant biologist Dr. Joanne Chory- Salk institute Plant biologist Dr. Joanne Chory investigated a type of plant hormone related to plant growth at the Salk Institute. She hybridized Arabidopsis in order to make agricultural crops like tobacco. Professor HG Solomon contemplates the importance of one day in the life of a plant, and this leads her into discusses the nature of time. Salk Institute ; Dr. Joanne Chory ; Plant biologist ; plant hormone ; time 0 [""] 1908 The passage of time Professor HG Solomon contemplates the passage of time after reading the book The Passion According to G.H. by Clarice Lispector. She shows the viewer models of Earth's timeline from the Big Bang and contemplates how we view time as a human. time ; Clarice Lispector ; The Passion According to G.H. ; Big Bang 0 [""] 2602 Oulanka Research Station Professor HG Solomon discusses how she was commissioned by the Oulanka Research Station in Finland. She explored how to use these data sets that are collecting data about temperature, individual species and soil responses to climate change and how can this data be incorporate into an AI program. Oulanka Research Station ; Finland ; AI 0 ["[\"\"]"] 2936 Mentorship at CSUSM Professor HG Solomon discusses mentorship at CSUSM. David Avalos was her mentor in the arts. He helped her understand the impact of the art she was creating. She emphasizes the importance of collaboration in the arts as a means to grow and learn. She discusses the Cognate Collective, a collective involving Misael Diaz's and Amy Sanchez at CSUSM. She discusses the importance of the Border Art Collective. Cognate Collective ; David Avalos ; mentorship ; Border Art Collective ; collaboration 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 3347 Closing The interview concludes. 0 [""] oral history Oral history interview of Lucy HG Solomon, April 17, 2025. Lucy HG Solomon is a professor in the Art Department at California State University, San Marcos. In this interview, she discusses professional collaboration and her interdisciplinary art projects, along with how she uses interactive media to help people understand complex scientific subjects. She reveals the importance of understanding the implications of scientific innovations for students. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:01.135 --> 00:00:24.015 Hello, this is Christine Frazier and today I'm interviewing Professor Lucy HG Solomon, for the California State University San Marcos University Library Oral History Program. Today is April 17th, 2025. This interview is taking place at the CSUSM campus. Professor HG Solomon, thank you for interviewing with me today. 00:00:24.015 --> 00:00:25.855 Thank you for having me. 00:00:25.855 --> 00:00:33.585 Could you tell us a little bit about how you came to teach at California State San Marcos and about your career? 00:00:33.585 --> 00:06:22.754 Yes, for sure. I would love to share a little bit about my creative journey. I was part of an art collective called the League of Imaginary Scientists, and that was from 2006 until--really for about 15 years. So around the pandemic, we shifted, but this was an art collective created with collaborators in Los Angeles and had a very playful approach to incorporating scientific themes into interactive artworks. And we had some acclaim. We had the great opportunity of working with NASA to strangely do a study on Ireland--in Ireland, on an island that was in a narrative way, a sister or a twin to Mars. And the island is called Oileán Ruaidh. It means the Red Island in Gaelic. And so this was during the first push to get really the public excited about the Mars Rovers. And we did a reverse future, or a reverse NASA study where we examined the future of this island and asked the same questions that the rovers were asking on Mars. The rovers were asking questions like: was Mars anything like Earth four million years ago? And we were asking, is the earth going to look like Mars in the future? And so we took the same kinds of samples that the rovers were taking and asked the same kinds of questions. I say that as a preamble because it is that kind of work, this community based, environmentally-oriented, interdisciplinary work that drove me to come to Cal State San Marcos. The founding of CSUSM--what is notable because the size and the nature of the faculty, the size of the university, the nature of the faculty, led the campus to be stridently interdisciplinary. That kind of thinking across disciplines allowed me to work here. And I say, allowed me to work here because I had applied for other positions, and really I had to transform myself to become the graphic design teacher or the media arts teacher or an art professor. And I did work at other institutions. And here I could be unapologetically an interdisciplinary artist. So that's what brought me to Cal State San Marcos. And I'm surrounded by colleagues who work in this hybrid way, and sometimes their work is quite fascinating and really drew me to wanna be here. An example is my colleague, Professor Judit Hersko, who like me, really bridges the world of art and science. When I came here, she had--maybe not recently--but had gone to Antarctica as part of an NSF grant. There was another colleague who is now retired, Deborah Small, who is notable because of her work that happened very organically with tribal communities, where she found that she had a very important--really a critical and perhaps threatened plant on her property in Rainbow where she lives. And tribal members ended up coming to her property as a meet-gathering place to develop crafts based around this plant. They ended up collaborating on a book where she photographed native species. And that became a resource, really for that group. And I have that ethnobotany photo group, photo book somewhere in my library here. But I came to Cal State San Marcos totally excited about the faculty here. Really historically important faculty as well, like David Avalos, who has a background working on border art issues with the Border Art Collective and is a prominent Chicano artist who has recently retired, but is quite really a cool guy. In fact, I have some things of his, I have his hot chili pepper that came from somewhere, and there's a book over there that Trader, Survivor, Icon that has his work in it. Thank you for passing that. Yeah. So this is, this features David Avalos's work. This is an important piece that he made that has also exhibited in the Escondido Center for the Arts. So there was this rigor of artistic creation that was evident in the colleagues who were here and a total encouragement to think and work outside of traditional artistic boundaries. 00:06:22.754 --> 00:06:29.305 That sounds wonderful. Could you explain your work on the Planet Mentorship Project? 00:06:29.305 --> 00:13:31.981 Yes, definitely. So as a faculty member at Cal State San Marcos, we balance a research and creative activities trajectory where we get to make art and write about the things that we care about. And, we do--of course, we're professors, we teach, and we also think about how we contribute to the campus community and the community at large. So one of the ways that I have found a way to be involved in the global community and to engage students in thinking about how they relate to the planet is a project that was conceived across different areas of the university. The arts: that's me. And then Juliana Goodlaw-Morris is, she is a former Peace Corps volunteer who really has worked across her professional career thinking about the use of resources. And she heads our sustainability efforts on campus. So she has become a close collaborator when I think about the impact of students' education and also their art on the environment and how to connect those more closely. Then the third person who started this project, and I'll talk about the project in a second, but it's Ariel Stevenson, and she is somebody who is thinking about inclusive excellence. That's her role on campus. And she brought to Juliana and me discussions around inclusive sustainability, how to engage the wider, the broader student body in environmental issues, environmental issues that really touch students in their homes, in their, uh, communities. And yet maybe they haven't studied environmental issues or they haven't developed the tools to really grapple with how they might become involved in the environmental issues across the planet. So we started this program. We started a program called the Planet Mentorship Project, and I am a professor in the arts. My specialty is data visualization. And when I started teaching data visualization, it was not that commonly understood. Now it's so obvious. I think actually COVID really made people alert to graphing in dynamic ways because they wanted to understand complex data sets quickly, and the literacy around data visualization across the world suddenly exploded. I work with students to create data visualizations around their lived experiences with daunting environmental issues and the data sets that are related to those. So in the Planet Mentorship Project, we pair mentorship, art making, and community building. And it's--we have some fun together. I'll show you a couple projects too or I'll talk about a couple projects. This is one student, Aidelen Montoya, who she made a data visualization that looks at the future of sea rises across the globe, but specifically relevant to the Philippines. And as a Filipinx student, she also examined her own ties to the Philippines and started to use beading, which is a traditional Filipino practice, and decided that she would bead these future maps. So this map of 2050 notably has much of the Philippines underwater, and this was an entry point for her to connect more with the place where her mother immigrated from, as well as explore environmental issues. So that's really the goal. Another, another work by Aidelen, I just have a couple of hers here--she looked at redlining in San Diego and made this dynamic embroidered map that really makes an inverse of the redlined areas and invited students who visited the exhibition at the Data Stacks on campus to look at where they're from and to see was this one of the areas that was excluded to someone who looks like me, or in this case, not me, but a student of color and their family. So that project has existed for about--we're in our third year and we are continuing it looking each year for a new cohort of students whom we hope to engage in arts in a dynamic way, and at the same time celebrate their own developing interests in nurturing the planet and examining the very critical issues around environmental injustice and the nuances of how that might have impacted their own family life. Some students live adjacent to factories and only in their critical inquiry really understand the embedded structural challenges that have developed, that have caused hardship and health issues within their families. So it's great. I mean, that's not great. That's problematic, but it is really rewarding to have students get excited about environmental causes which have traditionally not been causes that communities of color have been able to take over. There are often--environmental studies has been an area of study that has been dominated by white students and white scholars. And so you see this intersectional approach also shifting. Who gets to be an environmentalist? Everyone is an environmentalist. We're all affected by pollution. 00:13:31.981 --> 00:13:45.865 For professors or educators that would like to have students do these types of projects, what are some tips or issues that you think they should know about? 00:13:45.865 --> 00:13:50.034 And by? So by types of projects, you mean co-curricular, extracurricular? 00:13:50.034 --> 00:13:56.000 Yeah. Kind of interdisciplinary, getting students to critically examine their own environment and creating, you know-- 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:57.394 This project, the Planet Mentorship Project is a real commitment, and one thing that we do is we pay students. We have a--it's a grant, it's a scholarship-based project where students--and any student can participate--all students on campus are welcome. We usually have the amount of student applicants whom we accept. So it's kind of worked out perfectly. I don't wanna say that the only way to get students involved is to pay them, but it's really rewarding to have students have their own research and creative work acknowledged through a grant. And it may be the first time that they feel that they're acknowledged as an artist and a scholar. At the end of the program, we have a panel, the students discuss their work. We have an art exhibition at the Data Stacks, which is an exhibition space in Kellogg Library. 00:14:57.394 --> 00:15:11.544 Okay. Very cool. And I know, moving on a little bit, that you've also worked with Joanne Chory at the Salk Institute. Could you explain your work there for us? 00:15:11.544 --> 00:22:32.704 Yes, yes. So around the time that my, that the Art Collective, the League of Imaginary Scientists started to stop doing the kind of crazy art installations we were making around science, like the one that I described of the Inverse Mars Study. I started working with a Brazilian media artist and scholar, Cesar Baio, who is based at Uni Camp, a university in Brazil. It's the state university of Campinas. And we, we started to collaborate sometimes in person. I had a Fulbright to go to Campinas in Brazil as well as a few other places, but I spent a significant amount of time in 2022 there. We began working together in 2018, and we worked also between these disciplines of art and science while integrating technology. So our first artwork actually garnered us a pretty cool prize, the Lumen Prize in Artificial Intelligence. And this is a prize for the arts, for digital art. But this particular sub award, this award was for excellence in critically examining artificial intelligence. And that is what we started to do. We started to make artworks that use scientific principles often through collaborating in labs and with research scientists to make a statement about what technology serves. What the purpose is, how it intersects with society and nature. And that sounds all pretty crazy and complex, and I'll try to say it in a couple different ways. So we also make art that is often living. So we'll make a living sculpture rather than seeing just a piece of wood, it might be a wooden structure that incorporates living plants. And from those plants we receive live signals. Those signals become part of the art project. Our--so Cesar Baio and myself, we have the collective's name is Cesar and Lois, and one of our goals is to question the trajectory of technology, including artificial intelligence. And one example of that is thinking critically about the basis of technology, the basis of AI as a neurocentric or human rewards-based system. So a lot of--most AI systems, all programs, all AIs require data sets. And most of those databases come from--these are training databases and they come from human language models. They also--and those aspire to replicate human logic. Other rewards based training models, reinforce behavior that is very also human. Humans, when we get food, we feel rewarded. When we do certain things, we are also motivated by this internal reward. Hopefully that's not our only motivation. AIs are currently being developed in these ways. So Cesar and I started looking in it from an artist's perspective. So we're not AI specialists, but we incorporate artificial intelligence programming into our sculptures. We started thinking, what if nature were the blueprint for technology? And we started looking first at very simple systems, microbiological systems. We used one organism that we really got turned onto by a biology professor here at CSUSM, Dr. Betsy Read. She gave us a sample of slime mold, Physarum polycephalum. That is a really cool, fast growing yellow organism. It started a whole fashion craze for me where I only wore yellow for a long time 'cause I fell in love with this organism. And I worked with teams of students here at Cal State San Marcos, and we made art installations where Physarum polycephalum would make decisions and we would base our own computer system on that organism. And the big question was, you know, what kind of logic does this organism have? The organism is kind of interesting. It's not unlike some other kinds of networking organisms like, like fungi, although it's not a fungi. It was misclassified as fungi for a long time by scientists and then unclassified. But Physarum polycephalum or slime mold, which you can see out in the world in gardens. It's a networking organism that shares its resources across all of the nodes of its network. And as artists, we went into labs, we had artistic residencies and labs in different countries and different places. And we were able to grow and study this organism and ask, well, what if our own technologies shared resources the way that Physarum polycephalum does this? Um, this kind of wooden structure behind me was a basis for growing Physarum polycephalum. And this is actually a dried, you can't see it anymore 'cause it's all dried up. But that is where we groove the organism across a map of Palo Alto to show would Palo Alto and East Palo Alto--kind of the wealthiest and the poorest neighborhoods in California and maybe even the whole country. We were curious would Physarum polycephalum  organize those cities the same way that humans do? And what we found in our experiments is that Physarum polycephalum will redistribute wealth across its whole network. So we started using, in a way, the microorganism as a tool for data visualization and recalibrating our understanding of how could we logically change how we think about resource distribution, how societies are formulated. 00:22:32.704 --> 00:22:36.144 And what was the student response to discovering these things? 00:22:36.144 --> 00:23:50.000 We had students who participated, so Kodi Gerritsen was a student of mine at the time. She came to Stanford University with Cesar and me, and we presented this project together. There were three other students who worked on that project. And I started what's called the Data Lab, which is the Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory. And each semester I have about four students who work on art projects that bridge art and science. This is kind of unusual in the arts, but I was inspired and encouraged by my scientist colleagues. And this goes back to CSUSM being a model for interdisciplinary exploration. When Betsy Reed gave me that sample of Physarum polycephalum, she also said, come into the biology lab and experiment and try to figure out how to grow this in an artistic context. This is so fun. And she also allowed--that's actually very expensive. That's a huge resource. I was able to use that lab bench. And the bio tech at the time really helped me, helped keep alive the organism. 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:51.000 True. 00:23:51.000 --> 00:25:11.000 And it was so cool. So, and we did things. We asked questions that maybe the scientists hadn't been asking, like, how do I grow this on a map? How do I grow this on the surface of a book? We started to grow Physarum polycephalum over pages of a book to question in, in many cases, we use Descartes--books about that, questions about humanities, really what Descartes would term as man's control over nature. So we looked at these traditional tenets of Western civilization and what are considered the kind of great models of thinking and Western thought, and started to challenge those with layers of logic on top of those. So we had a computer system that we set up that took photographs of a book as the organism grew across it. And as the organism grew across the book, then the text started to change. So first it would say, only man is the king and queen of nature, only men. We used this, a quote from Cicero, only man can reverse the flow of rivers. And as--that's a paraphrase-- 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:12.000 Yeah. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:26:24.000 --and as the organism grew across, it would say something very unintelligible. But what was really cool, actually, we had the computer system tweet out the--back when Twitter was a thing instead of, before it evolved--the organism would tweet updated text from the book, devolving this text. And at that time when, when we did this, this was in 2019, we worked with another professor in literature here on campus, Professor Sandra Doller and Professor Doller, she brought her literature students in her critical analysis team, and they workshopped the text that the organism has--had published within Twitter. And they really looked at it as a poem or a body of language. It was really fun. And we filmed that and we have a video of those students' analysis of the living microorganisms. So that's cool. That is a very long background-- 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:25.000 Yeah. 00:26:25.000 --> 00:28:26.000 --to say that Cesar and Lois, uh, Cesar Biao and I, we, we were working with art and science, and when you asked about our work with the Salk Institute, we had had this body of work already. And so we had been--I guess, tried--we had had some chops proven within this arena of questioning this barrier between art and science that has been erected gradually over years, but maybe is being dismantled quite often at CSUSM And we were invited to and offered a commission to create a work with a biologist, a plant biologist--a plant microbiologist, Dr. Joanne Chory at the Salk Institute. Dr. Joanne Chory is known for her great scientific breakthrough, which now I think was maybe two decades ago, which was the discovery of a kind of plant hormone. It's not really a hormone, but it's called alchine. Am I saying that right, now? I won't say what it is, a secret thing. Yeah. And she discovered this, something like a hormone that plants release, and specifically the Arabidopsis plant, which is kind of known as a common weed, but in biology labs, it's used quite often to study and--to study hybrids, to create hybrids very quickly. They're, they're great lab rats for plant microbiologists. She, she stu--her discovery of this plant hormone was so cool, because what happens, I think it's, is it oxen? Uh, I'll, I'll find out and get back to you. 00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:27.000 Yeah. 00:28:27.000 --> 00:33:02.000 Her discovery of this thing, this chemical that gets released, occurs when we didn't know that much about how plant cycles are triggered. And what happens is that the Arabidopsis plant, it's very first exposure, it's first day of light, is so important. And if it gets sunlight, then it grows in a certain way. And if it's in the shade, it grows in a different way for the rest of its life. So if it's in sunlight, it doesn't need to compete with a lot of other plants. So it will not grow long roots, but if it is in the shade, it will grow longer roots. And what that means for other plants and for that particular plant, is that it retains more carbon. Because it's embedding more of its metabolic results in the earth and putting that carbon down. And so she was hybridizing Arabidopsis in order to make vast agricultural crops like tobacco have longer roots and help kind of shift this climate change. What stuck with Cesar and me in her study were the themes of, of course the globe and climate, but also time. How cool is it that one day in a plant's life is so important? In some ways that's true with humans. Of course, what happens to us as babies has an impact. But imagine if it was like whatever happened in that twenty four hours of your life, the very first day is a blueprint for forever. So we started to think about timescales and what is time for Arabidopsis? What is time for microbiological organisms for Physarum polycephalum? For a tree that lives for a thousand years? Like the sequoias? What are these different scales of time? And how can we think about time differently as humans? And if we did, what would it do for our decision making? Like if we could think across a thousand-year span? And then we started to think about, I was reading--this was during the pandemic when we had this assignment, so of course we were thinking about time. And even the project got interrupted for a year because everything was shut down, including the Salk Institute for a period of time, or at least to artists. So we were thinking about time, we were having time slowed down and sped up in the strange way that the pandemic infected our lives. And we were also thinking about the deep planetary time. There's an author, a Brazilian author, Clarice Lispector, who had, during the pandemic especially, become quite popular in the US 'cause she was newly translated, even though she's a classically known, and really thought of as a modernist artist and writer--not artist, but literature contributor in Brazil, Clarice Lispector, amazing challenging author, but really interesting. And I started reading her during the pandemic, her work. And she has one book called The Passion According to G.H. That book is really experimental. And in it, she has some framing of a woman's experience as really dipping into her own framing of prehistoric time. And how she, at some point, the sculptor who is a main character in this book, has an existential moment where she crushes a cockroach and she doesn't--her own feelings of self evolve and she cannot really distinguish herself from the cockroach. And so she's talking about, you know, what is our, my own prehistoric memory? Do I have any memory with this? Do I, what do I share with this cockroach? And so we were also thinking about that. Like, what is time according to the planet? 00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:03.000 Yeah. 00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:29.000 Prehistoric time? Are the bacteria that we evolved from, do we have, what kind of memories do we have associated with that? Do we have that? How long can our thinking be? And we were thinking about technology because technology is fast, and if we know anything about what, how we use AI in technology, it's usually to cut a corner to get something immediately. 00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:30.356 Yeah. 00:33:30.356 --> 00:34:11.045 And one of the worst culprits of this is Amazon. So, I like to use Amazon as an example, because of its famous same day delivery. When it, when the system, the AI system is shooting the data through its code to decide who gets to have same day delivery, what is considered are profits and also convenience. What is not considered is the long questions, the long logic. The long sense of time, like what is the impact on the planet? 00:34:11.045 --> 00:34:12.000 Yeah. 00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:35.000 Or on people and populations and culture and communities, when we start to economize our daily interactions and that gets spurred on by these technological tools. And we think of them as tools, but we don't always question the values that they're suddenly implanting. So that's what we started thinking about with Joanne Chory. 00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:36.000 Yes. 00:34:36.000 --> 00:37:15.000 With Dr. Chory. Not necessarily with her--with her, we really focused on Arabidopsis and the plant, and we started growing it ourselves. And during the pandemic, I worked with the Data Lab, and we grew and recorded the, the growth of Arabidopsis. We also started collecting plants all over Escondido, where I lived mostly around the specific property where I was living, which was very natural. And, along with the help of my daughter, who was six at the time, we collected many specimens and dried them and used those as part of the artwork. So I have, I have behind me one of the models that we made for thinking about time. So this circle that you see is the history of Earth starting with the Big Bang. And that became one of the models for allochronic cycles, which was a series of clocks that we made. I'll say clocks, but they're not quite clocks, but they were--there are, it's a series of discs that we designed and one was the cosmos. We thought the longest clock was the cosmos' time and for of the cosmos we embedded all of those specimens into holes, into little discs around the clock, around the disc. And then we had an earth cycle, and we had an Arabidopsis cycle, of course. And we had also a Covid cycle that went very quickly because the virus replicates. And for each of these cycles, we really studied all of these different ways of thinking about time, including viral time, and how fast growing and evolving viruses are. Which viruses, apart from infecting individuals and species are really cool, how they can replicate. So thinking about that kind of time, against the backdrop of cosmic time, those are huge leaps. So we really had fun during that whole year thinking about time. And then we made this model of clocks that I'll share an image of that, that is actually behind you we have some of the discs. I could pull one over. 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:16.000 Sure. 00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:19.000 Okay. I'll try not to knock anything over. 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:21.000 Yeah. 00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:39.000 Okay. You should have had this ready to go. I'll get the cosmos one. Okay. Let's see this up. Okay. I'll just show this one. 00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:42.125 Yeah. 00:37:42.125 --> 00:38:42.000 There's several discs, but I'll just show this cosmos one, because with the cosmos one, you can really see when it rotates that it has these powdered specimens inside of them. And they start--it's kind of cool, I think, how it like moves. And, so each one of these lights up and is powered, but it's also controlled by an AI. So it's controlled by a program that we wrote that takes into account, it's monitoring all of these different discs. So imagine the cosmos: it's spinning, but you barely notice it. Covid is spinning and it's, it's moving quite rapidly. This all exhibited at the La Jolla Historical Society. And then the following year, actually during the same exhibition, was it the same exhibition? It was, we made another version of it because it toured China and it— 00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000 Oh, wow. 00:38:43.000 --> 00:40:32.000 --it was cool because at the time we had two Chinese students who were in instrumental to the development of the project on the Data Lab, Ji Young, and that's her first name, and also, Lee who's Ziwei Lee, and he goes by Lee and Ji Young is now, she's a PhD student at the University of Dallas, at the University of Texas in Dallas. And she also got her master's at USC during the pandemic. So this project was really formative for students and the students, especially those two students because of their background in, I think, you know, design coming from China, but also design that integrates planets in some ways. Ji Young had done some work across designing with different kinds of calendars for one of my, one of the class projects. Anyway, they really informed the project. Kodi Gerrittsen also worked on the project, and she now runs the Makerspace on campus. So she, she was, Kodi was instrumental in developing the Data Stacks as well. And so no, all three of the them were, because the Data Stacks opened the year after the pandemic, we, it was ready to open in March of the pandemic year, and then we sus--it was up, but the official opening happened a year later, almost, I think. 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:57.000 Yeah. And, as you work on these projects, I think it's evident that you're comfortable and you have a lot of experience working with AI. As the university kind of transitions to using more AI, are there any insights or things that we need to think about as we kind of go into this new age? 00:40:57.000 --> 00:42:07.000 Definitely, yes. Thanks for asking that question. So that project, allochronic cycles, allochronic is a word that means when geological epochs are out of sync or when something's out of sync with its geological epoch. And we started to think that, wow, allochronic, that's what we humans are, we're out of sync with our geology and the Earth. And so is AI. AI is making advanced decisions that is having an impact on the planet. So one of the things that the AIL and allochronic cycles did is there were all of these spinning discs, and the AI represented as a screen. So we always have a visual representation of this program that is graphically moving across the screen. So you have--and in this case, the AI is a replica of the cycles. So you can see these discs spinning, but at the same time, what it's doing is it's looking at the current carbon emissions on the planet, which you can get in real time. So if the AI is collecting that for the day and each day projects out-- 00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:07.887 Wow. 00:42:07.887 --> 00:42:14.973 --when the Earth will no longer be habitable if the current carbon emissions are maintained. 00:42:14.973 --> 00:42:15.858 Yeah. 00:42:15.858 --> 00:42:28.678 And so then each day of the clock is the future of--is the day of the clock is like the next hundred to three hundred years. 00:42:28.678 --> 00:42:29.560 Yeah. 00:42:29.560 --> 00:44:02.000 Every day is the Earth's future. And at a certain point in the day, everything stops. And that's when the AI shuts down the clock and says, you know, at this point, the allochronic has happened. Like nothing is in sync. The carbon emissions have made life on Earth no longer possible. As we know it, life on earth as we know it. So that was kind of a challenging--a challenge to AI as well. Even though AI is given this task, it's a predictive task, the question is, really can we make a technology that does take into account the needs of the planet? Our next big project, well, we've had a quite a few projects since then, but we had a commission in the northern forest of Finland. And this was just this past year, we went to the Boreal Forest at the border between Finland and Russia and the North. And we were embedded at a research station, the Oulanka Research Station. And working with scientists who are so dedicated. And I always think of scientists as dedicated. Anyone who is doing research, longitudinal research is doing the same thing for thirty years. That takes so much focus. And most of these scientists, they're coming back--they were for many, many decades coming back to the cold, to the permafrost. 00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:04.000 Yeah. 00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:54.000 Looking, looking--the Boreal Forest actually wasn't permafrost, but in the winter months, looking at their sensors and getting their readings. Now this research station is year long, and they have longitudinal studies and they upkeep these data sets. So one of our goals was to think about how can we use these data sets that are asking questions about temperature and individual species and soil responses to climate change? How can we incorporate that into an AI? And we started to get our own signals. We had started doing this when we worked with a mushroom colony. We, we started getting signals from fungi for another project where we attempted communication with fungi, and that exhibited in Brazil. 00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:55.044 Yeah. 00:44:55.044 --> 00:46:09.715 And this project was creating, using the forest itself, the whole--imagine if the boreal forest, the network of forest were the model for the AI. Instead of a human neural network being the model for computer machine, computer processing or machine thinking, what if it's the forest? And the question for that project was really, does a forest make good decisions? Does it make better decisions than humans? Can humans make decisions like a forest? So I, I think for me, my role, as an artist is what many of the artists do here in this department. We look at an issue, we examine it critically, and then we offer other avenues for society. And it's--the artwork is meant as a question mark. It's meant as fodder for thinking and hopefully will propel new directions. 00:46:09.715 --> 00:46:37.744 It's very compelling. It's kind of, looking at AI, I think in a very unique way, a new perspective. I think many in education and elsewhere, it's just like a simple tool that people use and I think a few people even know, like the impact of AI, you know, on the environment. So this is really, really cool. As an educator, how have you used AI in your art classes? 00:46:37.744 --> 00:47:58.000 That's a great question. I have had individual students who use AI to generate projects. And part of my own requirement is that they contextualize and discuss what that means, what is the, the use of the tool. I am looking at and trying to develop a new curricular focus on AI and data visualization, where along with Cesar Baio and his wife in Brazil--is an AI specialist--named Livia Rubeck. And I am hoping to develop a curricular module with them that examines data sets and methods for mitigating bias in AI by eliminating bias in data sets. So it's a, that is Livia's expertise is examining and identifying bias in AI. Examples of that could be simply that, a whole gender is discluded. 00:47:58.000 --> 00:47:59.000 Yeah. 00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:29.994 So then the results and our understanding of the AI or the decisions aren't going to be as accurate and certainly won't be representative. So I'm curious, I'm not sure how that will play out in the classroom, but that is something I'm currently embarking on, and that I expect will be a year-long study with ideally implementation in the spring. 00:48:29.994 --> 00:48:31.304 Okay. 00:48:31.304 --> 00:48:34.000 So check back. 00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:35.585 Definitely. 00:48:35.585 --> 00:48:39.684 In a hundred years. I'll give you the next--no. 00:48:39.684 --> 00:48:57.000 Yeah. And considering that you are, working in the Art Department, are there any faculty that you'd like to review as being, you know, formative in your journey or impacting your work? 00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:14.000 Definitely. I think there are--there is the, my particular colleague, David Avalos, who was a resistant mentor of mine. I dragged him into taking on that role-- 00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:14.485 That is funny. 00:49:14.485 --> 00:49:57.000 --and then he became an obstinate mentor, a willing mentor. So he's somebody who really--like I mentioned at the very beginning of this interview, David Avalos is a Chicano artist, very important in the history of border art in Southern California, who has brought--married critical thinking, teaching, and art making within his practice. As a colleague, he really, you know, he knows how to ask the hard questions. And that's sometimes what we have to do. 00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:02.433 Yeah. 00:50:02.433 --> 00:52:19.684 With one another, we have to ask, how is what you're making--is what you are making, doing what you wanted to do in the world? And how do you adjust or work harder even? And so I have enjoyed my conversations with him as a model for thinking about my art practice. He has worked in an art collective and did so very thoughtfully with the Border Art Collective. That experience has been really important to how he thinks about the arts. And it has validated many of us in the department in our own work that is collaborative. Oftentimes when you go to different areas of the arts, perhaps the single master artist is celebrated. And we are, many of us in this department say, I'm thinking about the Cognate Collective, which is Misael Diaz's Collective. Professor Misael Diaz with, lecturer Amy Sanchez, who's also on campus. They create work together and sometimes they teach together. And that kind of collaborative making and thinking is pretty formative. It can generate something bigger than the individual's vision. And so David has supported that. I would also say that colleagues in the--and I should say too, that, Misael as a new colleague during the pandemic--I think just before the pandemic he joined our department--has also carried on that tradition of working within a collective, in a really exciting way. 00:52:19.684 --> 00:52:37.164 So thinking just in practice, how do you like forge relationships with other departments? Like how do you network as a faculty. If other people you know, on campus wanted to create an interdisciplinary project? 00:52:37.164 --> 00:53:14.000 I think it sometimes it's about asking a question that's interesting across disciplines. So you Judit Hersko has done so. She started working with--she's an art professor here who worked with she physics professors. And the physics professors, I always think of them as the other artists because they're asking these big questions that maybe are unanswerable and maybe it's the quest that becomes very engaging. As opposed to always having the practical answer. 00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:18.545 Yep. 00:53:18.545 --> 00:53:50.000 But I have found that the scientists across campus are very open to collaboration, and that's so cool. We have some new scientists who are in the microbiology and biological sciences, like Dr. Carlos Luna Lopez and Dr. Erika Díaz-Almeyda, among many others who are just kind of intrepid explorers. And so they're looking at the world-- 00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.125 Yeah. 00:53:52.125 --> 00:54:16.000 --through their own interdisciplinary lens already. So to tap into similar questions, to ask questions together from different angles, then just those initial discussions of questioning builds a framework for questioning together, and ideally bringing in students and having something bigger happen because you have input and expertise from different areas. 00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:24.994 Okay. Well, thank you for letting me interview you today. Is there anything else you'd like to share? 00:54:24.994 --> 00:56:15.000 Yeah. Yes, I would say that the--that trajectory of art and science, there are other avenues that happen and it's, there aren't only--there isn't only one method for collaborating. And I think another, so Judit Hersko has done that. Kristine Diekman, who also retired, she did that. I mentioned that Deborah Small was a collaborator across botany and indigenous practices and photography. So we--I think there's all of these different ways of thinking and working together. And that--I think if I had one, just to tie this whole long statement back to our very, your very first question about what brought me to CSUSM and that I had recalled, it was really the interdisciplinarity of the school. That is what persists. That ability to work across disciplines. I really hope, I think it's been the hope of all faculty who work here because it allows for a lot of freedom. When you are not, I wanna--maybe shackled is too strong a word--but siloed also another strong word, but when you don't have those restrictions, there are many more possibilities. So I really hope that our students feel that we have the--and that the community feels that. We have a lot of majors that are designed for cross-disciplinary explorations. So we have--the new Data Science major takes an art class-- 00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:16.000 Oh wow. 00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:28.000 --the environmental studies, the environmental studies students, those majors can take several different art classes that focus on art and science. The liberal studies students who are going to be the future educators-- 00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:29.000 Yeah. 00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:41.000 --do get a grounding in the arts, which is so important for K-12 teaching. So I just, I'm excited to be in a place where exploration is key. 00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:53.775 Very cool. Well, it was wonderful talking to you today. I appreciate our time together and thank you for contributing to the oral history project. 00:56:53.775 --> 00:57:02.000 Thank you. I hope it's an all right contribution. Thanks for having me. 00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:03.000 Yeah. Definitely. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17.xml HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource HG Solomon, Lucy. Interview April 17, 2025. Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Lucy HG Solomon, April 17, 2025. Lucy HG Solomon is a professor in the Department of Art, Media, and Design at California State University, San Marcos. In this interview, she discusses her collaborations with the League of Imaginary Scientists and with Cesar Baio as Cesar & Lois, along with how she works across art and science to talk about intersections in climate, AI, and society. She reveals the importance of cross-disciplinary exploration for students. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-079 Subject The topic of the resource Art and artificial intelligence Art and science Border Art Collective California State University San Marcos -- Faculty California State University San Marcos. Biology California State University San Marcos. Cognate Collective California State University San Marcos. Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory California State University San Marcos. School of Arts Environmentalism in art Interdisciplinary approach in education Mars Rover Project Physarum polycephalum Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-04-17 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lucy HG Solomon Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Christine Frazier Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oileán Ruaidh (Ireland) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lucy HG Solomon License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Art and artists CSUSM history History Department internship Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/77642e5342fb2141d291dcb4f2a39c8f.pdf c2109654a869454e378d11e588fb884f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource HG Solomon, Lucy. Interview transcript, April 17, 2025. Description An account of the resource Oral history interview of Lucy HG Solomon, April 17, 2025. Lucy HG Solomon is a professor in the Department of Art, Media, and Design at California State University, San Marcos. In this interview, she discusses her collaborations with the League of Imaginary Scientists and with Cesar Baio as Cesar & Lois, along with how she works across art and science to talk about intersections in climate, AI, and society. She reveals the importance of cross-disciplinary exploration for students. This oral history was created in partnership with the CSUSM History Department and made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lucy HG Solomon Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Christine Frazier Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-04-17 Subject The topic of the resource Art and artificial intelligence Art and science Border Art Collective California State University San Marcos -- Faculty California State University San Marcos. Biology California State University San Marcos. Cognate Collective California State University San Marcos. Data and Transdisciplinary Art Laboratory California State University San Marcos. School of Arts Environmentalism in art Interdisciplinary approach in education Mars Rover Project Physarum polycephalum Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oileán Ruaidh (Ireland) San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Lucy HG Solomon License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context HGSolomonLucy_FrazierChristine_2025-04-17_transcript Art and artists CSUSM history History Department internship Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Ryan Willis Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ilima Kam Martinez OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=MartinezIlimaKam_WillisRyan_04-07-23.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Martinez, Ilima Kam. Interview April 7, 2023 SC027-027 00:53:41 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. California State University San Marcos COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- Hawaii -- Culture Hawaii -- Social life and customs Hula (Dance) San Diego County (Calif.) Ilima Kam Martinez Ryan Willis m4a MartinezIlimaKam_WillisRyan_2023-04-07 1:|29(6)|40(14)|68(17)|104(25)|104(118)|137(6)|149(1)|190(31)|190(159)|190(294)|207(6)|223(2)|229(35)|238(41)|246(1)|263(55)|280(4)|310(42)|313(55)|319(32)|327(97)|346(16)|366(8)|368(24)|377(4)|409(5)|416(10)|419(98)|419(213)|419(310)|430(7)|450(57)|461(20)|474(17)|480(77)|521(19)|526(2)|534(71)|534(185)|545(47)|557(11)|570(23)|585(3)|593(24)|595(82)|651(8)|663(22)|672(4)|688(103)|688(215)|715(19)|732(4)|743(1) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/5fd0201c55bc12a13a23cf3cc706c049.m4a Other audio 30 Chapter 1: Where were you born? Ilima explains that she was born in San Diego, California and was raised locally in both Oceanside and Carlsbad. California ; carlsbad ; oceanside ; San Diego 44 Chapter 2: Childhood and Family Ilima speaks about growing up in predominantly Caucasian communities and schools. She then talks about her family including her father, who was a retired civil engineer from Pearl Harbor, Hawaii by the time Ilima was born. Since her father was retired, Ilima spent most of her childhood being raised by her father. Childhood ; father ; pearl harbor 147 Chapter 3: Did you spend a lot of time in Hawaii growing up? Any interest living there permanently? Ilima explains that she spent many summers with her two half-sisters and dad in Hawaii. She then admits that she always thought she would eventually live in Hawaii full time, and still hopes for this in the future. family ; Hawaii ; summer 211 Chapter 4: Any influential family members or friends growing up that you really looked up to? Ilima's dad was very influential in her life, as she explains that he was always present growing up and acknowledges that he was working at Pear Harbor at the time it was attacked by Japan on December 7, 1941. bombing ; Pearl Harbor ; WWII 305 Chapter 5: Did your father ever share his experience at Pearl Harbor? Ilima explains she did not even know her father was a civil engineer at Pearl Harbor at the time the island of Oahu was bombed until his 80th birthday party. Her father would sometimes begin talking about it, but never elaborated on the experience, always staying modest and humble. Civil Engineer ; Pearl Harbor ; Tennis Instructor 449 Chapter 6: When did you first take an interest in Hawaiian culture? Since she was the youngest of her siblings and the only one not born in Hawaii, Ilima always yearned to be connected to the island and the culture. She did not fully recognize the uniqueness of her heritage until she was in middle school when she saw a hula performance,which propelled her on her journey of learning hula, serving as an anchor in her life. Hawaiian culture ; hula ; ukulele 619 Chapter 7: Teaching hula and opening her own hālau Ilima shares that she opened up her own hālau, a traditional school in Vista, CA. She then explains that hālau is viewed as a place for family in Hawaiian culture, and how hula operates like a family. hālau ; hula ; vista 719 Chapter 8: Passion for elders (kūpuna) and volunteer work Before the COVID-19 pandemic, Ilima volunteered at the Oceanside Senior Center teaching elders (kūpuna) how to dance hula. She explains why Hawaiians hold their kūpuna in very high regard. hula ; kūpuna ; Oceanside 794 Chapter 9: Can you elaborate more on the importance of hula? Ilima expands on why hula is so important in Hawaiian culture as it encompasses mental, physical, and spiritual components.She then admits that hula makes a positive impact on elders (kūpuna). body ; hula ; kūpuna ; mind ; spirit 901 Chapter 10: The challenges of Covid-19 Ilima dives into her own personal struggles with the COVID-19 pandemic and the importance of being together in Hawaiian culture. Covid-19 ; hālau ; hānai ; Hawaiian community 1043 Chapter 11: Influential hula instructors Ilima talks about one of her mentors, Kawaikapuokalani Hewett, an enormous figure in Hawaiian culture hula ; Kawaikapuokalani Hewett ; kumu ; mentor 1337 Chapter 12: Misconceptions about Hawaiians Ilima addresses misconceptions of Hawaiians, and that Hawaiians identify themselves by their lineage and ancestors and not by blood quantum. misconceptions ; stereotypes 1504 Chapter 13: When did you begin spreading and preserving traditions of Hawaiian culture? Ilima knew as a young adult that she was going to make it her mission to practice Hawaiian culture despite not being born and raised on ancestral land, and wanted to provide other Hawaiians that also did not live in Hawaii a platform to partake in Hawaiian traditions. This leads Ilima to discuss further her motivation in opening her hālau, creating an accessible and affordable place for all to learn. Ilima introduces her nonprofit organization, UMEKE, which provides access to Hawaiian culture such as hula in an authentic way for all, regardless of ethnicity or race. accessible ; hālau ; hawaiians ; hula ; UMEKE 1826 Chapter 14: When did you first establish UMEKE? Ilima founded her nonprofit in October 2021. 2021 ; nonprofit ; UMEKE 1870 Chapter 15: Was there anyone that helped you get UMEKE up and running? Ilima has a huge support system, especially elders and female role models within the Hawaiian community that have all played a significant role in the success of UMEKE. Native Hawaiian Community ; role models ; UMEKE 1922 Chapter 16: What are you most proud of to this point with UMEKE? Ilima states that she is most proud of a grant that her organization created to introduce hula (and ukulele) to a local elementary school that has a large Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander population. Accessibility ; Kids ; Native Hawaiian ; Pacific Islander 2021 Chapter 17: Filing a need in the community There has been an abundance of opportunities presented to Ilima and the UMEKE team since 2021, which Ilima believes demonstrates the need for her organization within the San Diego community, and hopes for projects to continue to float her way. goals ; UMEKE 2127 Chapter 18: Pursuing an education at CSUSM Ilima explains why her children played a vital role in her decision to attend California State University San Marcos, and why she decided to pursue a bachelor's degree in indigenous anthropology. She recounts her time and experience in school as a &quot ; non-traditional student&quot ; and the challenges she faced, along with gaining a new perspective. CSUSM ; indigenous anthropology ; Kumeyaay ; Luiseño ; Non-traditional student 2512 Chapter 19: Southern California, Asian, and Pacific Islander Festival Ilima talks about the upcoming Southern California, Asian, and Pacific Islander festival where she is the co-creator. Ilima elaborates on her multi-ethnic background and wanting the community to know that this event is for everyone and to learn about API (Asian &amp ; Pacific Islander) culture. Asian ; Festival ; Pacific Islander ; Southern California 2871 Chapter 20: How many cultures represented? How did you go about contacting these different groups? Ilima estimates over twenty different cultures represented at the API festival. Thanks to her close relations within the Pacific Islander and dance community, it was easy for Ilima to get other groups to attend and participate. African American Community ; arts ; Pacific Islander Community ; San Diego 3038 Chapter 21: Getting involved and growing the community Ilima stresses that anyone from any background or ethnicity would be a welcome ally in promoting Hawaiian and indigenous culture within the community. ally ; allyship ; community 3098 Chapter 22: What are you most proud of and what has brought you the most joy in life? Ilima's children are what she is most proud of in her life, as she has been able to instill and teach her children about Hawaiian culture and they will be able to pass those traditions on to future generations. Children ; future generations ; Hawaiian traditions ; knowledge sound Ilima Kam Martinez is a California State University San Marcos alum and the founder and President of UMEKE, an organization that promotes and preserves Hawaiian culture through hula dancing. In this interview, Ilima discusses her upbringing, the influence and relationship with her father, the importance of hula in Hawaiian cultures, the challenges she faced during the Covid-19 pandemic, her passion for elders, her mentors, going back to school to earn her degree, and her goals for UMEKE moving forward. Ryan Willis: Alright. Hello, this is Ryan Willis, and today I am interviewing Ilima Kam Martinez for the California State University San Marcos Library Special Collections oral history project. Today is April 7, 2023, and the time is 1:47 PM, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Ilima, thank you so much for interviewing with me today. Ilima Kam Martinez: Thank you for the invitation. Willis: Of course. So, let&#039 ; s go ahead and start off, um, from the beginning. Where were you born? Martinez: I was born here in San Diego, California, and raised here in both Oceanside and Carlsbad area. Willis: Perfect. And if you don&#039 ; t mind, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood? Uh, what was it like growing up for you? Martinez: It&#039 ; s just-it&#039 ; s always an interesting question because I think I will answer that much differently than I would&#039 ; ve say, you know, uh, 25 years ago. Um, I-- attended schools in Carlsbad, which is a predominantly, you know, affluent Caucasian community. And coming from a really diverse background, um, I, uh-- let me think. Willis: Yeah, yeah. Take your time &lt ; Martinez laughs&gt ; . Not a problem. Martinez: Um, that really set me on the path that I find myself on today. I grew up with both parents in my life. Two sisters, two older sisters. I&#039 ; m the youngest. Um, my father was a retired civil engineer from Pearl Harbor. So he had me, you know, by the time I was born, he was already at an age where he was retired. So, I spent most of my time with him and being raised by him. Willis: Okay. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: That&#039 ; s really interesting. So, you said your father worked in-at Pearl Harbor? Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So did you spend a lot of time in Hawaii growing up? Martinez: I did. So, I also have two half-sisters, that remained in Hawaii, from my father&#039 ; s first marriage. And, when I say half-sisters, that&#039 ; s just, more literal than anything there. So I spent a lot of time, with my dad and my sisters during the summer times growing up. So we often would visit-- Willis: Gotcha. Martinez: Hawaii. Willis: Did you ever have any interest in living there full-time? Or was it just more of like, oh, we&#039 ; ll just, you know, visit here and there? Martinez: I always thought I would. I always thought that I would, eventually wind up there. Um, and I&#039 ; m not totally disregarding the possibility of that happening in the future. But yes, I do hope to find myself back there one day. Willis: That&#039 ; s awesome. Yeah. I&#039 ; ve always wanted to visit, but never have to this point. Um, were there any influential family members or friends growing up that you really looked up to? Martinez: I would have to say my dad. Willis: Your dad. Martinez: Yeah. My dad was, he was so, he came from a, a generation right, where it was very, um, old school. You know, he was working at Pearl Harbor at the time that it was bombed. And so he, he, although he wasn&#039 ; t-- he came from a generation, that was not especially affectionate or maybe verbalized, you know, their, their love for their families and friends, but always showed it, you know, in by example. Always being present with me, always, you know, taking me to, you know, activities. And, so although he might not have been, you know, that ty-not typical, but extremely affectionate or, you know, verbalizing love that he was very instrumental in what I would consider to be a really happy childhood. Willis: Right. Yeah. That&#039 ; s awesome. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So you said that he was actually at Pearl Harbor, though when the bombing took place? Martinez: He was mm-hmm. Willis: Wow. So what kind of stories did he have &lt ; Martinez laughs&gt ; regarding that? Or was that something that he kind of just didn&#039 ; t like to talk about? Martinez: He, it&#039 ; s funny because I actually didn&#039 ; t even know he was a civil engineer at Pearl Harbor until his 80th birthday party. Which took place in Hawaii. In his retirement he was actually a tennis instructor for the Carlsbad Parks and Recreation for twenty years. That&#039 ; s what I always thought that he was. &lt ; laughs&gt ; To me, that&#039 ; s what my dad did for a living. Willis: Right. Martinez: Oh, he&#039 ; s a tennis instructor! &lt ; laughs&gt ; . And when somebody, you know, was giving a speech at his birthday party instead he was a civil engineer, you know, I&#039 ; m already a young adult at that point, right? At Pearl Harbor. I was, I had no idea. But that was typical of my dad. He was very, very humble. Um, very modest. And so, it probably shouldn&#039 ; t have surprised me, but yeah. He didn&#039 ; t talk about much about his experience, at Pearl Harbor at the time. Later on, you know, when he, so he had suffered a major stroke in his eighties and, had moved in, with my family and I, and so I was his sole caregiver during about a span, about, of about 10 years. And things would, he would start to talk about it but never really elaborate. And, and I just always, you know, knew better than to, to pry that he would tell me what I was meant to know. Willis: Right. Martinez: What he felt that I should know. Willis: Yeah. If you didn&#039 ; t find out about it until you were, you know, a young adult. So that kind of-- &lt ; laughs&gt ; Martinez: Right. Willis: Explains it right there. Like yeah, you probably didn&#039 ; t want to go there. Martinez: Exactly. And, and my dad was such a, he was such, a planner, right? Like, he was always very organized, always had things in place. So he actually had written his own obituary several years before he even had his stroke. And so it was actually through his obituary that he wrote that I learned a lot about him. Willis: I see. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: That&#039 ; s fascinating. Martinez: Mm-hmm. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Willis: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So kind of along the lines of Hawaiian culture, when did you first take an interest in it? And was there a point in your life where you kind of knew that that was something that you really wanted to focus on in your life, or even with a career? Martinez: I, I think that so being the youngest of my siblings, I was the only one who was born here in San Diego. All my siblings, all my sisters were born in Hawaii, raised in Hawaii. And so I feel like there was always that yearning, you know, to be connected to Hawaii. And, um, it&#039 ; s really interesting because what I didn&#039 ; t know at the time in my upbringing, you know, with my dad, what I didn&#039 ; t realize was very special and unique to Hawaiian culture? I didn&#039 ; t even realize that&#039 ; s what it was until, until later on. Right? Just, you know, maybe the foods we ate, the music my, my dad would play, he was a &quot ; slap &lt ; unclear&gt ; guitarist.&quot ; He played ukulele. Um, but, it, to me, it was just my home. Right? So I think that it was pretty, I think I wanna say sometime around maybe middle school that I had seen a hula performance. And I remember it having such an impact on me at that moment that I was like, ahh! I don&#039 ; t know, there was just this instant connection, although I had seen, you know, hula before, but it was just this one particular moment. And so, that was when I had asked my dad, I would like to take hula classes, but again, I mean, I&#039 ; m in Carlsbad, right? And like where, where do you even find something like that? And, and, um. But we, we did. And so he, enrolled me in classes at that time. And it&#039 ; s been a lifelong journey of learning ever since. And just something that I&#039 ; ve always felt, so it, it&#039 ; s been the constant in my life right? Where I could go, always rely on hula to, to, um-- it was just a, an anchor, you know? Right. No matter what else is going on in my life, hula was always and still is that anchor for me, that makes me feel safe. Willis: Right. Martinez: Yeah. Willis: That&#039 ; s so cool. Yeah. I was gonna ask you, because I know that we, had talked in our pre-interview specifically about hula and how important that is to Hawaiian culture. I understand that you actually teach it as well. Martinez: I do &lt ; laughs&gt ; , I do. I have a hālau in, which is a traditional hula school in Vista. I just opened up the hālau oh gosh. We just celebrated our fourth anniversary. Um, and it&#039 ; s been, it&#039 ; s been wonderful. Um, I think for those that have not had experience in hālau it&#039 ; s, it can be challenging to understand, but hālau equates for a lot of people family, right? Like in its essence, yes, it&#039 ; s a school of hula, but really it&#039 ; s in, its, in its foundational form it&#039 ; s about family and it works and operates very much like a family. So sometimes I wonder if it was really that I wanted to open the hālau for &lt ; laughs&gt ; , you know, teaching hula or if it was for the purpose of being able to provide a home and a family for, for students. Willis: Right. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: That&#039 ; s awesome. You also mentioned that you have a passion for elders, and I know that you were teaching them as well pre-Covid. Is that correct? Martinez: Pre-Covid I was volunteering at the Oceanside Senior Center. And I think it also again goes back to my dad. I think a lot of things &lt ; laughs&gt ; will go back to my dad. He was, I mean he was fifty-eight years old when I was born, and I think about that and it just kind of blows my mind. And as being his caregiver, kūpuna or elders in Hawaiian culture are so, I think that&#039 ; s one of the many unique things about Hawaiian culture is that we, help, hold our kūpuna in such high regard because we know that their experience, we know that their, the lives that they have lived and their experience far surpasses ours. So we always know to go to them and respect, you know, the knowledge that they, that they bear. So yeah-- Willis: And I think you also mentioned that part of the reason why you&#039 ; ve really enjoyed teaching the hula to seniors or elders is because it exercises their mind not just their body, right? Like you&#039 ; re just kind of focusing on the whole package there. Can you maybe elaborate a little bit more on that? Martinez: Yeah. I mean, hula at its core is encompassing of, mental, physical, and spiritual, which you know, I&#039 ; ve learned that not everybody realizes or may know that. And so, when you&#039 ; re, when I&#039 ; m teaching with kūpuna, having those three facets ; that physical, mental and emotional part I have seen has been such, has had such a huge impact on them. You know, just the simple act of coming together, of sharing meals together, which we do a lot, &lt ; laughs&gt ; The cognition that goes into learning choreography, I have seen such an a really impressive trajectory, upward trajectory in how much now that my kūpuna class can retain as opposed to when they may have first started dancing. Right. I think that, watching that, like being a witness to this, this, how it can, how hula can positively impact them, is just, such a huge motivator to just keep going, to just to keep doing that and okay now what else can we do? Willis: Yeah. Seems like that would be very rewarding. Martinez: Mm-hmm. It&#039 ; s Extremely rewarding. Willis: So you were teaching, classes for free to seniors right before Covid- Martinez: Before Covid. Willis: And then once Covid hit. So what was that whole experience like for you once Covid hit and you weren&#039 ; t able to teach people in person. I bet that was really difficult for you. Martinez: &lt ; laughs&gt ; . It was, it was. It provided its challenges. I think a lot of us shared the same challenges. Trying to communicate and, keep a community online was just really challenging. However, I feel like during the time of the pandemic folks were looking to have that sense of community that when you would&#039 ; ve thought that we would have flailed, as a hālau, it actually just thrived, because of that need that, just that human need to want to come together and have a community. So when it was time, when we reached that time where we could come together outdoors, I mean, we, we did it immediately. As soon as we were told that we could conduct classes outdoors it was immediately and students came out and didn&#039 ; t hesitate. I would say probably the most challenging thing was what is inherently cult- culturally inherent to us is the act of like, exchanging hānai or, you know kiss, kisses or hugs. And culturally, that&#039 ; s what we do when we greet each other, when we say farewell to each other, is to always hānai each other. And that was probably one of the largest challenges because we couldn&#039 ; t even, like, &lt ; Willis laughs&gt ; we couldn&#039 ; t touch- Willis: Right. Martinez: We couldn&#039 ; t- Willis: Six feet. Martinez: Yeah. That six feet. And it went against everything that we, that was so ingrained in us that that, that was pretty tough. Willis: That was such an awkward moment in time. Like, nobody really knew how to interact with each other. I want to give you a hug, but I guess let&#039 ; s give you an air hug for now. Martinez: Yeah, yeah. Willis: But I can see how that could be very difficult, especially with your culture, just wanting to be right there with the person and be able to, you know, exchange those pleasantries. So-- Martinez: Yeah. Willis: Yeah. Going back to when you first started learning hula, do you specifically remember an instructor or somebody that taught you or that really had an influence on that? Martinez: I couldn&#039 ; t single one out to be honest, because with each kumu or teacher that I have had has had such a huge influence on the kumu that I am today. I, I couldn&#039 ; t credit just, just one. They all affected me in different ways, but equally impactful ways. I&#039 ; ll note that, so I was, &lt ; unclear&gt ; is the formal graduation ceremony that a kuma hula goes through in order to, it&#039 ; s like it&#039 ; s a method of training, right? To become a kuma hula. And so the kuma that I was very honored and so blessed to be able to graduate under, he&#039 ; s, his name is Kawaikapuokalani Hewett. And he is so prolific and knowledgeable in, in all aspects of Hawaiian culture that, and just to have that source, to be able to always go back to for the rest of, you know, my life like, that&#039 ; s just, it&#039 ; s just really, I feel so, so blessed that I have him, in my life. And, and the Hawaiian community is blessed to have him because he&#039 ; s so gracious and generous with his, with his &#039 ; ike or his knowledge, where I think that as an indigenous culture, we often can gatekeep you know, rightfully so. But we can often gatekeep some knowledge because of how it has been, exploited right? In the past. Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: And the fact that, that Kumu Kawaikapuokalani is, is, has such a kind heart and willing to be able to, share knowledge is, is really, really priceless because it has benefited so many of his students. Willis: Right, right. Do you remember when you met him exactly? Was it when you were first learning hula or? Martinez: Oh my goodness. Well he is a, he, I can&#039 ; t remember exactly because he&#039 ; s very well known in Hawaii. He is a famous composer or songwriter and poet. And so my father being a musician, I remember seeing Kawaikapuo CDs in my home, you know at the time. So I, it&#039 ; s actually kind of interesting cause I feel like it was almost a, uh, predetermined that this relationship was going to circle around. Right. And ironically, he, and I can&#039 ; t obviously say the name, but he resides on the same street in Hawaii that my sister resided in at the time. So when I would visit my sister &lt ; laughs&gt ; in Hawaii, it was the same street that my now kumu still lives on. So, it, it&#039 ; s just-- Willis: Oh wow. How convenient is that? Martinez: It&#039 ; s just, yeah, &lt ; laughs&gt ; . I&#039 ; m going to say coincident, there&#039 ; s no such thing as coincidences. Willis: Right. No, I agree. &lt ; Martinez laughs&gt ; . Aside from hula, are there any other specific Hawaiian traditions that you really feel passionate about? Martinez: Oh my goodness. Um, I feel that hula does encompass all of those traditions. Right? And I think that&#039 ; s why it is so predominant in Hawaiian culture because it encompasses every aspect of Hawaiian culture. Protocols are implemented in hula that are implemented in-- that really dictate, the belief systems of Hawaiian people. So, I wouldn&#039 ; t, I, yeah. I don&#039 ; t think, yeah. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Willis: No, that&#039 ; s perfect. Do you think there&#039 ; s any like, big misconceptions about Hawaiians or Hawaiian culture in general? I mean, like stereotypes &lt ; Martinez laughs&gt ; from your experiences? Martinez: Yeah. &lt ; more laughter&gt ; . Yeah. There&#039 ; s, I wouldn&#039 ; t even know where to begin &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Willis: &lt ; laughs&gt ; I know it&#039 ; s kind of a loaded question. Martinez: Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. But if I had to Like if I had to choose, you know, one or two of the most common stereotypes or misconceptions, gosh, I would, I-- Hmm, Hmm. Well, I&#039 ; ll address one thing only because it&#039 ; s fresh in my mind. And I was posed this question recently was I often get asked, &quot ; Oh, how much Hawaiian are you? And it&#039 ; s interesting when folks ask this question because it&#039 ; s almost like they&#039 ; re putting a measure to it. Yeah? And I think what folks don&#039 ; t understand is that as a Hawaiian people, we identify our Hawaiian-ness is by our lineage and our ancestors. Right? It&#039 ; s not about a blood quantum. And I, I think I&#039 ; ll just leave it at that &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Willis: That&#039 ; s perfect. I appreciate that. Didn&#039 ; t mean to put you on the spot. Martinez: No, no, it&#039 ; s a great question. It was just hard to decide what it would be the, what is most often misunderstood. Because there&#039 ; s plenty. There&#039 ; s plenty. Willis: Yeah. Understood. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So this next question&#039 ; s gonna kind of lead into your organization that I want to talk to you about- Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: But around when and how did you begin your journey in assisting with spreading and preserving traditions of Hawaii? Martinez: I&#039 ; m sorry, can you ask--? Willis: Yeah, of course. So I was just wondering around when was it, when you were maybe a teenager, young adult, when you decided, okay, I&#039 ; m gonna really start to assist with spreading and preserving the traditions of Hawaiian culture? Martinez: Hmm. Oh gosh. I think I can&#039 ; t recall when I know I was younger, but I can&#039 ; t recall the exact time. But as an adult, I always knew. Like as a young adult, I knew that that would be my mission, for a couple reasons. One, it was the accessibility of, learning Hawaiian culture being a Hawaiian who lives in diaspora, right? Who doesn&#039 ; t, who isn&#039 ; t living in their ancestral land. So, just, you know, personally from my own personal experience not having that access and really having to actively search for it, I knew that I wanted to be able to provide that for other native Hawaiians that are not, no longer residing in Hawaii. Another reason is that just like anything else, any sort of extracurricular activity, sometimes classes are not affordable to, Native Hawaiian population. Right? They can be, that can be a barrier, a financial barrier. And that&#039 ; s always kind of been, to me an interesting, dilemma as a kumu hula, and as someone who has a hālau, I always wanna make sure our classes are accessible to everyone who wants to learn. However, at the end of the day, I still have a lease to pay. Right? An electric bill. And, and so how can I do that in such a way that it can benefit students. How can I teach, culture in a way that can benefit students, that can still benefit financially for my family, right? Because I dedicate a lot of my time to this. And then the third component is, how can it benefit the community as a whole? And I think that&#039 ; s where UMEKE, our organization comes in, right? Establishing that nonprofit organization where we can be able to provide access to culture for everyone. Because I believe anyone and everyone who would like to learn Native Hawaiian or not, should be able to. Should be able to do that and do it in a, an a appropriate and an authentic way you know, because we don&#039 ; t live-- Because of our locale, there are often folks who may be teaching a version of hula or, but perhaps they don&#039 ; t have the education to be teaching Hawaiian culture in, you know in an authentic way. And that&#039 ; s not to say that it&#039 ; s, you know I&#039 ; m sure the intention, the intentions are good and, and whatnot, but they&#039 ; re-- In San Diego in particular, the native Hawaiian community is very passionate about being, taking on that kuleana or that responsibility of educating about Hawaiian culture in a way that it&#039 ; s, that it&#039 ; s coming from the native Hawaiian community. Yeah. I know that, personally, and this is just me personally, is that because Hawaiian culture has been commercialized for so long, I actively work towards deconstructing those, those, those stereotypes that surround Hawaiian culture that mostly came about once Hawaii became a, a very popular travel destination. Right? Um, so-- Willis: Gotcha. So speaking a little bit more on, UMEKE when did you first, establish your organization? Martinez: We filed in 2021, October of 2021. And we were stagnant for a little bit as we were kind of building our capacity, and I&#039 ; ve just recently become more active and had some really great opportunities to be able to-- Willis: And you are the founder, you are the president. It&#039 ; s really, you know, your idea. Right? You were the one that was like, let&#039 ; s do this, let&#039 ; s push forward. Martinez: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Willis: Was there anyone else that hopped on board with you that kind of helped you get it going? Or was it pretty much your project and your project only? Martinez: Oh my gosh. I had a huge support system, even from people that don&#039 ; t even realize they were part of it. They were part of it. &lt ; laughs&gt ; And again, it goes back to, my, the elders within the Hawaiian community, specifically in San Diego. Those aunties, you know, I have some really amazing female role models in the Native Hawaiian community, in the kūpuna. And when I see the work that they have done and dedicated their lives to, I realize that this next generation, that I now have that responsibility to keep on that pathway that they&#039 ; ve, that they&#039 ; ve blazed already. Right? Mm-hmm. Willis: Right. So obviously it&#039 ; s still a relatively new organization, but what are you most proud of, so far, and what are you kind of hoping to accomplish moving forward? Martinez: Oh, gosh. I&#039 ; m at this moment most proud of a grant we were recently working on within collaboration with a local school district to be able to bring hula to -- and ukulele -- to an elementary school that has a significant Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander [NHPI] population. And providing that accessibility component, where, you know students might not otherwise be able to afford it financially or may not just even have the transportation for that, right? Because it happens during school. It, the accessibility just makes, made it so easy. So I would say that because I reflect on what I would&#039 ; ve really loved at that age and been exposed to, and being able to take ownership of that [NHPI] identity in a place other than my home, among my friends, I think that would&#039 ; ve been really impactful for me as a young person. And so-- Willis: Definitely. Yeah. And kids remember assemblies like that as well. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: I can still tell you some of the ones that I attended in elementary school and like the impact they had on me so that&#039 ; s a really cool thing. And then, as far as like, looking forward to future, do you have any goals in mind or is it really just continue to do what you&#039 ; re doing and hope more people hop on? Martinez: &lt ; laughs&gt ; Yeah, I mean, as far as goals it&#039 ; s so interesting because when this group of us set out to start UMEKE, there were really folks that just wholeheartedly believed in me and my vision. And when we set out to do this, I think just like anything when you start something you&#039 ; re like, &quot ; Ohh!,&quot ; you know. &lt ; laughs&gt ; We weren&#039 ; t sure how successful we would be, but it&#039 ; s so interesting because opportunities have really been presenting themselves without us seeking them out, which to me, speaks to the mission of UMEKE that it was something that was really needed in our community because projects are really kind of floating our way, and it aligns with what we would love to do. So although we didn&#039 ; t know exactly maybe specifically what a project was going to look like, folks are coming to us with their projects. And so it&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s really exciting because it&#039 ; s like, oh, there was a need! We, okay, great. You know- &lt ; laughs&gt ; Willis: &lt ; laughs&gt ; It&#039 ; s all for a reason. Martinez: It, yes. Yeah. Willis: That&#039 ; s really cool. Shifting gears a little bit, I understand you are a Cal State San Marco alum? Martinez: I am. Willis: So you earned your bachelor&#039 ; s degree in Indigenous Anthropology, is that correct? Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: In 2019? Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So what was that, what made you decide to ultimately go for a bachelor&#039 ; s degree? What kind of pushed you in that direction? Martinez: That&#039 ; s a funny story. So I have four children, and my eldest was in high school at the time and, you know neither of my parents went to college. And between my siblings and I, we didn&#039 ; t have a four-year degree. Right. So I was very, very, very &lt ; laughs&gt ; , persistent that my children go to a four-year college, and I realized that I couldn&#039 ; t preach &lt ; laughs&gt ; higher education to them. Unless I went ahead and did it myself and so I did &lt ; laughter&gt ; . Yeah. Willis: That&#039 ; s very admirable. It&#039 ; s, it&#039 ; s not easy, especially when you&#039 ; re a parent. I can attest to that. It is not easy to continue on with school. I mean, you just have so many other things going on. Just to be able to put aside some time for that is a challenge within itself. Was it a difficult decision? I mean, I guess that&#039 ; s the obvious to, to go back to school or, but once you got in, was it, was it easy for you? Did it come naturally, or what was that kind of whole process like when you first started attending classes? Martinez: It was interesting going back as an, as a non-traditional student and, you know, at my age with children, I knew I was going to go into it slow and steady. I wasn&#039 ; t in a rush. And so I had just started with maybe two classes per semester. And, and I actually thought of it as a blessing because I got to study exactly what I wanted to. I knew that cultural anthropology was going to be something that would maintain my interest and my goals. And so, when I had learned that Cal State [San Marcos] specifically had an indigenous anthropology degree, it, it, it just all made sense. So it wasn&#039 ; t, it was challenging maybe logistically, having, juggling, family, but learning and the like-minded folks that I got to meet, especially this younger generation! They&#039 ; re amazing, you know, &lt ; laughter&gt ; and getting invigorated by this young energy. For me it was a, it was a great experience, and you know, when you tell somebody that you&#039 ; re going to school for indigenous anthropology, you always get that question, what are you gonna do with that? Well, guess what? I use it every single day! &lt ; laughs&gt ; , Willis: Right. Not everybody can say that, so that&#039 ; s impressive. Yeah. Uh, so did you come away with a new perspective after graduating? Martinez: Um, hmm. I think the perspective that I got was, probably one of the most important perspectives is that outside perspective, right? Because we&#039 ; re sometimes always just living in our bubble and really only see what&#039 ; s happening in our immediate surroundings. And so, I would say it changed my perspective in that, in the sense that, one, learning about other cultures, and when we learn about other cultures, it really helps us to understand more of our own, and being with such a diverse, because Cal State [San Marcos] does have a really diverse student body, right? So different ages and ethnicities. And so I think that, those, all of those things combined are, are what changed my perspective, not the actual piece of paper &lt ; laughs&gt ; . Willis: Yeah, no. I totally understand. Um, as far as the other cultures that you learned about, was there one in particular other than Hawaiian that really caught your attention? Martinez: Oh my goodness. I wouldn&#039 ; t say specifically one. I think that just studying other indigenous cultures, particularly, you know, the ones within our area, like the Kumeyaay and the Luiseño, I just loved learning about how more similar Hawaiian culture is, with the [San Diego-are] native communities than not, and so I would say it that was just, and, and that was with everything. That&#039 ; s with belief systems, that&#039 ; s with, our, our medical systems, how we view health. Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: How we view, our, structures of our families, our structure of our communities. So, now I&#039 ; m not sure that I &lt ; laughs&gt ; answered your question. Willis: Yeah, that&#039 ; s perfect. Um, so I did want to touch base on an event that, um, you obviously had a huge hand in, earlier this year in February, you were able to establish the first ever southern California, Asian, and Pacific Islander Festival. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: Which, um, took place actually here in Oceanside. Uh, first off, what was kind of the vision of this, event and how long did it take for this idea to become a reality? Martinez: Um, I can say I can&#039 ; t take credit for coming up with the idea. As, but as now, like currently being a co-creator of, of the event for me personally, I come from a multiculturally- multicultural background, so, um, as a lot of us are right? So yes, I&#039 ; m Native Hawaiian. Um, in addition to that, I&#039 ; m also Japanese and Chinese and Mexican. And, coming from such a, a multi-ethnic background growing up in North [San Diego] County, I think that, my drive behind this event is one, bringing that diversity to North County that it hasn&#039 ; t seen a lot of in the past that, and maybe on this, on this level, right? Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: The API [Asian &amp ; Pacific Islander] community being highlighted to this extent in this area, we&#039 ; re quite underrepresented. And I knew that going into this festival that our number one focus was always going to be on the educational aspect of it, and getting, you know, circling back to that, like when we understand other cultures, that we really begin to understand ourselves more, and we wanted to focus on this educational part because sometimes festivals can get quite, um, what&#039 ; s the word? Insular. Yeah. And we want to make it, we want folks to know that this festival&#039 ; s for everyone. You know, no matter what the background, no matter what the age, no matter what the locale that is for everybody to be able to come together and learn about API culture. Willis: Right. Gotcha. Martinez: So-- Willis: Uh, so can you share your experience of how the event actually unfolded? Was it what you were hoping for? Was it a nice turnout? Martinez: Well, it&#039 ; s actually in three weeks. Willis: Oh, my mistake. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Martinez: &lt ; laughs&gt ; . So we&#039 ; re in the thick of it. Willis: Gotcha. Okay. I must have, misread that. My apologies. &lt ; laughs&gt ; My understanding is that it already happened earlier this year. Martinez: No worries. Willis: Okay. So it&#039 ; s happening in three weeks from now! Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: Okay. That&#039 ; s awesome. So I guess, um, what are you expecting? Are you expecting it to be a pretty big turnout? Martinez: Well, that&#039 ; s what we&#039 ; re hoping for! &lt ; laughs&gt ; Willis: Of course. Martinez: Um, but as far as how it&#039 ; s unfolded, you know, it did just like anything, it&#039 ; s evolved. The, the, the vision has evolved a little bit. In, in, the, the, yeah, the vision and the mission have all evolved quite a bit, but as far as like what people can expect, because we wanted it to be, you know, educational, there you will find the typical things that you would find in a festival, yeah, is performances and vendors and food and things like that. But I think probably my most favorite part that has sort of evolved since the initial planning is this contemporary aspect of what API culture looks like. So, I mean, you can use K-Pop [Korean pop music] as a great example, right? Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: Like, and the phenomenon around K-pop and, where that came from. So initially we were focusing mostly on traditional practices and performances, but then we realized how many amazing API artists are out there and are deserving of recognition, but may not necessarily be practicing what would be considered a traditional art. So that&#039 ; s, I think I&#039 ; m really excited to see what some of these performers are bringing, these API artists and performers are bringing to the festival. I think that&#039 ; s gonna be a really fun aspect of it. That was, for me, it was, it was an unexpected but pleasant surprise addition to the festival. Willis: Right. Absolutely. Uh, do you know about how many different ethnicities, cultures are gonna be represented at this event? Martinez: We have about, um, over 20. Willis: Wow. Martinez: Yeah. We have about over 20. Willis: That&#039 ; s impressive. And a lot of them have just, have they been coming to you about it, or do you reach out to them? How does that usually work? Martinez: You know I, I&#039 ; m really fortunate to have been embedded in the Pacific Islander community in San Diego since I, you know, the dance community is very close-knit. So I&#039 ; m really fortunate to be able to reach out to other directors of performance groups that I am, I have relationships with. And they were the first ones to jump on and say, yes, we would love to support you. Um, so that was really how the momentum, started. Right? Because, you know, you start with one performance group and then another performance group. Oh! And then so-and-so&#039 ; s performing, and then another one. And so I wasn&#039 ; t as, connected within, the AA [African American] community though, and that has been an amazing experience is meeting other directors in their respective arts, like, &lt ; unclear&gt ; and, Lion Dance, and, because it&#039 ; s just, we are all, we&#039 ; re all the same at the end of the day. And um, so I, this initial year we did a huge, we did a lot of outreach. We have a great leadership team, and so between us and our outreach and our circles, we, we got a lot of support from folks. And it didn&#039 ; t take much of an ask. Folks really wanted to be a part of this. They really wanted this. Willis: I can imagine. That&#039 ; s fascinating. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So is there anything else that you uh, or how else do you continue to help, I guess Native Hawaiian culture and how can, for example, someone like myself get involved if they wanted to, kind of help and promote in that area? Martinez: Oh gosh. Um, oh, I&#039 ; m sorry. Can you repeat that again? &lt ; laughs&gt ; Willis: So I guess what I&#039 ; m really getting at, like how can someone else, if they really want to, you know, help and be a part of the cause, how would they go about doing that? Would they just reach out to you? Martinez: Oh, yeah. I mean the, I mean, what, that&#039 ; s the irony in it, right? Is the majority of, of my supporters and our team are not Native Hawaiian. And, but it&#039 ; s that allyship and because they you know, believe in, in, in the mission they&#039 ; re absolutely willing to just jump in &lt ; laughs&gt ; and do whatever needs to be done. Um, so yeah, I mean anybody who ever want, who wants to be an ally, we are, we are here and happy and-- Willis: Come on down! Martinez: Yes. Ready to, to you know, just grow our community. Willis: Right. That&#039 ; s so cool. So you kind of may have already answered this earlier but overall, as you reflect on everything you have done and accomplished to this point in your life, what are you most proud of and what has brought you the most joy? Has it been, maybe the hula aspect, um, teaching elders, children, or is there something else? Martinez: &lt ; laughs&gt ; Uh I think, it&#039 ; s my own children, right? That will always be my most proud accomplishment. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Them as individuals, but also taking that perspective again of what I really could have needed or wanted in my upbringing, I feel like I provided that for my children and have instilled that into my children. And, knowing that I know that they&#039 ; re gonna move forward and pass that on to their children, that&#039 ; s, that will always be my proudest accomplishment, knowing that the generations far after I&#039 ; m gone, will still be carrying on those, on those traditions. Willis: Yeah. That&#039 ; s fantastic. And then, before we close our interview, is there anything else you would like to mention? Maybe something I didn&#039 ; t ask you about that you really were hoping I would or? &lt ; laughs&gt ; Martinez: Oh gosh. Um, not that I can think of. Um, yeah, no nothing &lt ; laughs&gt ; Willis: Okay. Yeah, no that&#039 ; s perfect. I think we definitely covered a lot of great stuff in this interview. So, really appreciate your time, Ilima. This was very informative. I think a lot of people can get a lot out of this whole interview and, really appreciate everything that you do for not only Hawaiian culture, but just the community in general. So thank you so much for your time. Martinez: Yeah, thank you. Willis: Alright. &lt ; Martinez laughs&gt ; Now I&#039 ; m gonna go ahead and stop the recording. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. 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Interview April 7, 2023 Description An account of the resource Ilima Kam Martinez is a California State University San Marcos alum and the founder and President of UMEKE, an organization that promotes and preserves Hawaiian culture through hula dancing. In this interview, Ilima discusses her upbringing, the influence and relationship with her father, the importance of hula in Hawaiian cultures, the challenges she faced during the Covid-19 pandemic, her passion for elders, her mentors, going back to school to earn her degree, and her goals for UMEKE moving forward. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-027 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- Hawaii -- Culture Hawaii -- Social life and customs Hula (Dance) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Hawaiian Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Ilima Kam Martinez Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ilima Kam Martinez Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ryan Willis Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history History Department internship Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/8b7ea359fd88c198e863d417f2251a4e.pdf f94190d28b4466324946ce6be2435b49 PDF Text Text ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Ryan Willis: Alright. Hello, this is Ryan Willis, and today I am interviewing Ilima Kam Martinez for the California State University San Marcos Library Special Collections oral history project. Today is April 7, 2023, and the time is 1:47 PM, and this interview is taking place at the University Library. Ilima, thank you so much for interviewing with me today. Ilima Kam Martinez: Thank you for the invitation. Willis: Of course. So, let's go ahead and start off, um, from the beginning. Where were you born? Martinez: I was born here in San Diego, California, and raised here in both Oceanside and Carlsbad area. Willis: Perfect. And if you don't mind, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood? Uh, what was it like growing up for you? Martinez: It's just-it's always an interesting question because I think I will answer that much differently than I would've say, you know, uh, 25 years ago. Um, I… attended schools in Carlsbad, which is a predominantly, you know, affluent Caucasian community. And coming from a really diverse background, um, I, uh… let me think. Willis: Yeah, yeah. Take your time <Martinez laughs>. Not a problem. Martinez: Um, that really set me on the path that I find myself on today. I grew up with both parents in my life. Two sisters, two older sisters. I'm the youngest. Um, my father was a retired civil engineer from Pearl Harbor. So he had me, you know, by the time I was born, he was already at an age where he was retired. So, I spent most of my time with him and being raised by him. Willis: Okay. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: That's really interesting. So, you said your father worked in-at Pearl Harbor? Transcribed by Ryan Willis 1 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So did you spend a lot of time in Hawaii growing up? Martinez: I did. So, I also have two half-sisters, that remained in Hawaii, from my father's first marriage. And, when I say half-sisters, that's just, more literal than anything there. So I spent a lot of time, with my dad and my sisters during the summer times growing up. So we often would visit-Willis: Gotcha. Martinez: Hawaii. Willis: Did you ever have any interest in living there full-time? Or was it just more of like, oh, we'll just, you know, visit here and there? Martinez: I always thought I would. I always thought that I would, eventually wind up there. Um, and I'm not totally disregarding the possibility of that happening in the future. But yes, I do hope to find myself back there one day. Willis: That's awesome. Yeah. I've always wanted to visit, but never have to this point. Um, were there any influential family members or friends growing up that you really looked up to? Martinez: I would have to say my dad. Willis: Your dad. Martinez: Yeah. My dad was, he was so, he came from a, a generation right, where it was very, um, old school. You know, he was working at Pearl Harbor at the time that it was bombed. And so he, he, although he wasn't… he came from a generation, that was not especially affectionate or maybe verbalized, you know, their, their love for their families and friends, but always showed it, you know, in by example. Transcribed by Ryan Willis 2 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Always being present with me, always, you know, taking me to, you know, activities. And, so although he might not have been, you know, that ty-not typical, but extremely affectionate or, you know, verbalizing love that he was very instrumental in what I would consider to be a really happy childhood. Willis: Right. Yeah. That's awesome. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So you said that he was actually at Pearl Harbor, though when the bombing took place? Martinez: He was mm-hmm. Willis: Wow. So what kind of stories did he have <Martinez laughs> regarding that? Or was that something that he kind of just didn't like to talk about? Martinez: He, it's funny because I actually didn't even know he was a civil engineer at Pearl Harbor until his 80th birthday party. Which took place in Hawaii. In his retirement he was actually a tennis instructor for the Carlsbad Parks and Recreation for twenty years. That's what I always thought that he was. <laughs> To me, that's what my dad did for a living. Willis: Right. Martinez: Oh, he's a tennis instructor! <laughs>. And when somebody, you know, was giving a speech at his birthday party instead he was a civil engineer, you know, I'm already a young adult at that point, right? At Pearl Harbor. I was, I had no idea. But that was typical of my dad. He was very, very humble. Um, very modest. And so, it probably shouldn't have surprised me, but yeah. He didn't talk about much about his experience, at Pearl Harbor at the time. Later on, you know, when he, so he had suffered a major stroke in his eighties and, had moved in, with my family and I, and so I was his sole caregiver during about a span, about, of about 10 years. And things would, he would start to talk about it but never really elaborate. And, and I just always, you know, knew better than to, to pry that he would tell me what I was meant to know. Willis: Right. Transcribed by Ryan Willis 3 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: What he felt that I should know. Willis: Yeah. If you didn’t find out about it until you were, you know, a young adult. So that kind of-- <laughs> Martinez: Right. Willis: Explains it right there. Like yeah, you probably didn’t want to go there. Martinez: Exactly. And, and my dad was such a, he was such, a planner, right? Like, he was always very organized, always had things in place. So he actually had written his own obituary several years before he even had his stroke. And so it was actually through his obituary that he wrote that I learned a lot about him. Willis: I see. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: That's fascinating. Martinez: Mm-hmm. <laughs> Willis: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So kind of along the lines of Hawaiian culture, when did you first take an interest in it? And was there a point in your life where you kind of knew that that was something that you really wanted to focus on in your life, or even with a career? Transcribed by Ryan Willis 4 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: I, I think that so being the youngest of my siblings, I was the only one who was born here in San Diego. All my siblings, all my sisters were born in Hawaii, raised in Hawaii. And so I feel like there was always that yearning, you know, to be connected to Hawaii. And, um, it's really interesting because what I didn't know at the time in my upbringing, you know, with my dad, what I didn't realize was very special and unique to Hawaiian culture? I didn't even realize that's what it was until, until later on. Right? Just, you know, maybe the foods we ate, the music my, my dad would play, he was a “slap <unclear> guitarist.” He played ukulele. Um, but, it, to me, it was just my home. Right? So I think that it was pretty, I think I wanna say sometime around maybe middle school that I had seen a hula performance. And I remember it having such an impact on me at that moment that I was like, ahh! I don't know, there was just this instant connection, although I had seen, you know, hula before, but it was just this one particular moment. And so, that was when I had asked my dad, I would like to take hula classes, but again, I mean, I'm in Carlsbad, right? And like where, where do you even find something like that? And, and, um. But we, we did. And so he, enrolled me in classes at that time. And it's been a lifelong journey of learning ever since. And just something that I've always felt, so it, it's been the constant in my life right? Where I could go, always rely on hula to, to, um… it was just a, an anchor, you know? Right. No matter what else is going on in my life, hula was always and still is that anchor for me, that makes me feel safe. Willis: Right. Martinez: Yeah. Willis: That's so cool. Yeah. I was gonna ask you, because I know that we, had talked in our pre-interview specifically about hula and how important that is to Hawaiian culture. I understand that you actually teach it as well. Martinez: I do <laughs>, I do. I have a hālau in, which is a traditional hula school in Vista. I just opened up the hālau oh gosh. We just celebrated our fourth anniversary. Um, and it's been, it's been wonderful. Um, I think for those that have not had experience in hālau it's, it can be challenging to understand, but hālau equates for a lot of people family, right? Like in its essence, yes, it's a school of hula, but really it's in, its, in its foundational form it's about family and it works and operates very much like a family. So sometimes I wonder if it was really that I wanted to open the hālau for <laughs>, you know, teaching hula or if it was for the purpose of being able to provide a home and a family for, for students. Willis: Right. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Transcribed by Ryan Willis 5 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Willis: That's awesome. You also mentioned that you have a passion for elders, and I know that you were teaching them as well pre-Covid. Is that correct? Martinez: Pre-Covid I was volunteering at the Oceanside Senior Center. And I think it also again goes back to my dad. I think a lot of things <laughs> will go back to my dad. He was, I mean he was fifty-eight years old when I was born, and I think about that and it just kind of blows my mind. And as being his caregiver, kūpuna or elders in Hawaiian culture are so, I think that's one of the many unique things about Hawaiian culture is that we, help, hold our kūpuna in such high regard because we know that their experience, we know that their, the lives that they have lived and their experience far surpasses ours. So we always know to go to them and respect, you know, the knowledge that they, that they bear. So yeah-Willis: And I think you also mentioned that part of the reason why you've really enjoyed teaching the hula to seniors or elders is because it exercises their mind not just their body, right? Like you're just kind of focusing on the whole package there. Can you maybe elaborate a little bit more on that? Martinez: Yeah. I mean, hula at its core is encompassing of, mental, physical, and spiritual, which you know, I've learned that not everybody realizes or may know that. And so, when you're, when I'm teaching with kūpuna, having those three facets; that physical, mental and emotional part I have seen has been such, has had such a huge impact on them. You know, just the simple act of coming together, of sharing meals together, which we do a lot, <laughs> The cognition that goes into learning choreography, I have seen such an a really impressive trajectory, upward trajectory in how much now that my kūpuna class can retain as opposed to when they may have first started dancing. Right. I think that, watching that, like being a witness to this, this, how it can, how hula can positively impact them, is just, such a huge motivator to just keep going, to just to keep doing that and okay now what else can we do? Willis: Yeah. Seems like that would be very rewarding. Martinez: Mm-hmm. It's Extremely rewarding. Willis: So you were teaching, classes for free to seniors right before CovidMartinez: Before Covid. Willis: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 6 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 And then once Covid hit. So what was that whole experience like for you once Covid hit and you weren't able to teach people in person. I bet that was really difficult for you. Martinez: <laughs>. It was, it was. It provided its challenges. I think a lot of us shared the same challenges. Trying to communicate and, keep a community online was just really challenging. However, I feel like during the time of the pandemic folks were looking to have that sense of community that when you would've thought that we would have flailed, as a hālau, it actually just thrived, because of that need that, just that human need to want to come together and have a community. So when it was time, when we reached that time where we could come together outdoors, I mean, we, we did it immediately. As soon as we were told that we could conduct classes outdoors it was immediately and students came out and didn't hesitate. I would say probably the most challenging thing was what is inherently cult- culturally inherent to us is the act of like, exchanging hānai or, you know kiss, kisses or hugs. And culturally, that's what we do when we greet each other, when we say farewell to each other, is to always hānai each other. And that was probably one of the largest challenges because we couldn’t even, like, <Willis laughs> we couldn't touchWillis: Right. Martinez: We couldn'tWillis: Six feet. Martinez: Yeah. That six feet. And it went against everything that we, that was so ingrained in us that that, that was pretty tough. Willis: That was such an awkward moment in time. Like, nobody really knew how to interact with each other. I want to give you a hug, but I guess let's give you an air hug for now. Martinez: Yeah, yeah. Willis: But I can see how that could be very difficult, especially with your culture, just wanting to be right there with the person and be able to, you know, exchange those pleasantries. So-Martinez: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 7 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Yeah. Willis: Yeah. Going back to when you first started learning hula, do you specifically remember an instructor or somebody that taught you or that really had an influence on that? Martinez: I couldn't single one out to be honest, because with each kumu or teacher that I have had has had such a huge influence on the kumu that I am today. I, I couldn't credit just, just one. They all affected me in different ways, but equally impactful ways. I'll note that, so I was, <unclear> is the formal graduation ceremony that a kuma hula goes through in order to, it's like it's a method of training, right? To become a kuma hula. And so the kuma that I was very honored and so blessed to be able to graduate under, he's, his name is Kawaikapuokalani Hewett. And he is so prolific and knowledgeable in, in all aspects of Hawaiian culture that, and just to have that source, to be able to always go back to for the rest of, you know, my life like, that's just, it's just really, I feel so, so blessed that I have him, in my life. And, and the Hawaiian community is blessed to have him because he's so gracious and generous with his, with his ‘ike or his knowledge, where I think that as an indigenous culture, we often can gatekeep you know, rightfully so. But we can often gatekeep some knowledge because of how it has been, exploited right? In the past. Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: And the fact that, that kumu Kawaikapuokalani is, is, has such a kind heart and willing to be able to, share knowledge is, is really, really priceless because it has benefited so many of his students. Willis: Right, right. Do you remember when you met him exactly? Was it when you were first learning hula or? Martinez: Oh my goodness. Well he is a, he, I can't remember exactly because he's very well known in Hawaii. He is a famous composer or songwriter and poet. And so my father being a musician, I remember seeing Kawaikapuo CDs in my home, you know at the time. So I, it's actually kind of interesting cause I feel like it was almost a, uh, predetermined that this relationship was going to circle around. Right. And ironically, he, and I can't obviously say the name, but he resides on the same street in Hawaii that my sister resided in at the time. So when I would visit my sister <laughs> in Hawaii, it was the same street that my now kumu still lives on. So, it, it's just-Willis: Oh wow. How convenient is that? Martinez: It's just, yeah, <laughs>. I’m going to say coincident, there’s no such thing as coincidences. Willis: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 8 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Right. No, I agree. <Martinez laughs>. Aside from hula, are there any other specific Hawaiian traditions that you really feel passionate about? Martinez: Oh my goodness. Um, I feel that hula does encompass all of those traditions. Right? And I think that's why it is so predominant in Hawaiian culture because it encompasses every aspect of Hawaiian culture. Protocols are implemented in hula that are implemented in… that really dictate, the belief systems of Hawaiian people. So, I wouldn't, I, yeah. I don't think, yeah. <laughs> Willis: No, that's perfect. Do you think there's any like, big misconceptions about Hawaiians or Hawaiian culture in general? I mean, like stereotypes <Martinez laughs> from your experiences? Martinez: Yeah. <more laughter>. Yeah. There's, I wouldn't even know where to begin <laughs>. Willis: <laughs> I know it's kind of a loaded question. Martinez: Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. But if I had to Like if I had to choose, you know, one or two of the most common stereotypes or misconceptions, gosh, I would, I… Hmm, Hmm. Well, I'll address one thing only because it's fresh in my mind. And I was posed this question recently was I often get asked, “Oh, how much Hawaiian are you? And it's interesting when folks ask this question because it's almost like they're putting a measure to it. Yeah? And I think what folks don't understand is that as a Hawaiian people, we identify our Hawaiian-ness is by our lineage and our ancestors. Right? It's not about a blood quantum. And I, I think I'll just leave it at that <laughs>. Willis: That's perfect. I appreciate that. Didn't mean to put you on the spot. Martinez: No, no, it's a great question. It was just hard to decide what it would be the, what is most often misunderstood. Because there's plenty. There’s plenty. Willis: Yeah. Understood. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So this next question's gonna kind of lead into your organization that I want to talk to you about- Transcribed by Ryan Willis 9 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: But around when and how did you begin your journey in assisting with spreading and preserving traditions of Hawaii? Martinez: I'm sorry, can you ask--? Willis: Yeah, of course. So I was just wondering around when was it, when you were maybe a teenager, young adult, when you decided, okay, I'm gonna really start to assist with spreading and preserving the traditions of Hawaiian culture? Martinez: Hmm. Oh gosh. I think I can't recall when I know I was younger, but I can't recall the exact time. But as an adult, I always knew. Like as a young adult, I knew that that would be my mission, for a couple reasons. One, it was the accessibility of, learning Hawaiian culture being a Hawaiian who lives in diaspora, right? Who doesn't, who isn't living in their ancestral land. So, just, you know, personally from my own personal experience not having that access and really having to actively search for it, I knew that I wanted to be able to provide that for other native Hawaiians that are not, no longer residing in Hawaii. Another reason is that just like anything else, any sort of extracurricular activity, sometimes classes are not affordable to, native Hawaiian population. Right? They can be, that can be a barrier, a financial barrier. And that's always kind of been, to me an interesting, dilemma as a kumu hula, and as someone who has a hālau, I always wanna make sure our classes are accessible to everyone who wants to learn. However, at the end of the day, I still have a lease to pay. Right? An electric bill. And, and so how can I do that in such a way that it can benefit students. How can I teach, culture in a way that can benefit students, that can still benefit financially for my family, right? Because I dedicate a lot of my time to this. And then the third component is, how can it benefit the community as a whole? And I think that's where UMEKE, our organization comes in, right? Establishing that nonprofit organization where we can be able to provide access to culture for everyone. Because I believe anyone and everyone who would like to learn Native Hawaiian or not, should be able to. Should be able to do that and do it in a, an a appropriate and an authentic way you know, because we don't live… Because of our locale, there are often folks who may be teaching a version of hula or, but perhaps they don't have the education to be teaching Hawaiian culture in, you know in an authentic way. And that's not to say that it's, you know I'm sure the intention, the intentions are good and, and whatnot, but they're-- In San Diego in particular, the native Hawaiian community is very passionate about being, taking on that kuleana or that responsibility of educating about Hawaiian culture in a way that it's, that it's coming from the native Hawaiian community. Yeah. I know that, personally, and this is just me personally, is that because Hawaiian culture has been commercialized for so long, I actively work towards deconstructing those, those, those stereotypes that surround Hawaiian culture that mostly came about once Hawaii became a, a very popular travel destination. Right? Um, so-- Transcribed by Ryan Willis 10 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Willis: Gotcha. So speaking a little bit more on, UMEKE when did you first, establish your organization? Martinez: We filed in 2021, October of 2021. And we were stagnant for a little bit as we were kind of building our capacity, and I've just recently become more active and had some really great opportunities to be able to-Willis: And you are the founder, you are the president. It's really, you know, your idea. Right? You were the one that was like, let's do this, let's push forward. Martinez: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Willis: Was there anyone else that hopped on board with you that kind of helped you get it going? Or was it pretty much your project and your project only? Martinez: Oh my gosh. I had a huge support system, even from people that don't even realize they were part of it. They were part of it. <laughs> And again, it goes back to, my, the elders within the Hawaiian community, specifically in San Diego. Those aunties, you know, I have some really amazing female role models in the Native Hawaiian community, in the kūpuna. And when I see the work that they have done and dedicated their lives to, I realize that this next generation, that I now have that responsibility to keep on that pathway that they've, that they've blazed already. Right? Mm-hmm. Willis: Right. So obviously it's still a relatively new organization, but what are you most proud of, so far, and what are you kind of hoping to accomplish moving forward? Martinez: Oh, gosh. I'm at this moment most proud of a grant we were recently working on within collaboration with a local school district to be able to bring hula to -- and ukulele -- to an elementary school that has a significant Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander [NHPI] population. And providing that accessibility component, where, you know students might not otherwise be able to afford it financially or may not just even have the transportation for that, right? Because it happens during school. It, the accessibility just makes, made it so easy. So I would say that because I reflect on what I would've really loved at that age and been exposed to, and being able to take ownership of that [NHPI] identity in a place other than my home, among my friends, I think that would've been really impactful for me as a young person. And so-Willis: Definitely. Yeah. And kids remember assemblies like that as well. Transcribed by Ryan Willis 11 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: I can still tell you some of the ones that I attended in elementary school and like the impact they had on me so that's a really cool thing. And then, as far as like, looking forward to future, do you have any goals in mind or is it really just continue to do what you're doing and hope more people hop on? Martinez: <laughs> Yeah, I mean, as far as goals it's so interesting because when this group of us set out to start UMEKE, there were really folks that just wholeheartedly believed in me and my vision. And when we set out to do this, I think just like anything when you start something you're like, “Ohh!,” you know. <laughs> We weren't sure how successful we would be, but it's so interesting because opportunities have really been presenting themselves without us seeking them out, which to me, speaks to the mission of UMEKE that it was something that was really needed in our community because projects are really kind of floating our way, and it aligns with what we would love to do. So although we didn't know exactly maybe specifically what a project was going to look like, folks are coming to us with their projects. And so it's, that's really exciting because it's like, oh, there was a need! We, okay, great. You know- <laughs> Willis: <laughs> It’s all for a reason. Martinez: It, yes. Yeah. Willis: That's really cool. Shifting gears a little bit, I understand you are a Cal State San Marco alum? Martinez: I am. Willis: So you earned your bachelor's degree in Indigenous Anthropology, is that correct? Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: in 2019? Transcribed by Ryan Willis 12 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So what was that, what made you decide to ultimately go for a bachelor's degree? What kind of pushed you in that direction? Martinez: That's a funny story. So I have four children, and my eldest was in high school at the time and, you know neither of my parents went to college. And between my siblings and I, we didn't have a four-year degree. Right. So I was very, very, very <laughs>, persistent that my children go to a four-year college, and I realized that I couldn't preach <laughs> higher education to them. Unless I went ahead and did it myself and so I did <laughter>. Yeah. Willis: That's very admirable. It's, it's not easy, especially when you're a parent. I can attest to that. It is not easy to continue on with school. I mean, you just have so many other things going on. Just to be able to put aside some time for that is a challenge within itself. Was it a difficult decision? I mean, I guess that's the obvious to, to go back to school or, but once you got in, was it, was it easy for you? Did it come naturally, or what was that kind of whole process like when you first started attending classes? Martinez: It was interesting going back as an, as a non-traditional student and, you know, at my age with children, I knew I was going to go into it slow and steady. I wasn't in a rush. And so I had just started with maybe two classes per semester. And, and I actually thought of it as a blessing because I got to study exactly what I wanted to. I knew that cultural anthropology was going to be something that would maintain my interest and my goals. And so, when I had learned that Cal State [San Marcos] specifically had an indigenous anthropology degree, it, it, it just all made sense. So it wasn't, it was challenging maybe logistically, having, juggling, family, but learning and the like-minded folks that I got to meet, especially this younger generation! They're amazing, you know, <laughter> and getting invigorated by this young energy. For me it was a, it was a great experience, and you know, when you tell somebody that you're going to school for indigenous anthropology, you always get that question, what are you gonna do with that? Well, guess what? I use it every single day! <laughs>, Willis: Right. Not everybody can say that, so that's impressive. Yeah. Uh, so did you come away with a new perspective after graduating? Martinez: Um, hmm. I think the perspective that I got was, probably one of the most important perspectives is that outside perspective, right? Because we're sometimes always just living in our bubble and really only see what's happening in our immediate surroundings. And so, I would say it changed my perspective in that, in the sense that, one, learning about other cultures, and when we learn about other cultures, it really helps us to understand more of our own, and being with such a diverse, because Cal State [San Marcos] does have a really diverse student body, right? So different ages and ethnicities. And so I think Transcribed by Ryan Willis 13 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 that, those, all of those things combined are, are what changed my perspective, not the actual piece of paper <laughs>. Willis: Yeah, no. I totally understand. Um, as far as the other cultures that you learned about, was there one in particular other than Hawaiian that really caught your attention? Martinez: Oh my goodness. I wouldn't say specifically one. I think that just studying other indigenous cultures, particularly, you know, the ones within our area, like the Kumeyaay and the Luiseño, I just loved learning about how more similar Hawaiian culture is, with the [San Diego-are] native communities than not, and so I would say it that was just, and, and that was with everything. That's with belief systems, that's with, our, our medical systems, how we view health. Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: How we view, our, structures of our families, our structure of our communities. So, now I'm not sure that I <laughs> answered your question. Willis: Yeah, that's perfect. Um, so I did want to touch base on an event that, um, you obviously had a huge hand in, earlier this year in February, you were able to establish the first ever southern California, Asian, and Pacific Islander Festival. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: Which, um, took place actually here in Oceanside. Uh, first off, what was kind of the vision of this, event and how long did it take for this idea to become a reality? Martinez: Um, I can say I can't take credit for coming up with the idea. As, but as now, like currently being a cocreator of, of the event for me personally, I come from a multiculturally- multicultural background, so, um, as a lot of us are right? So yes, I'm Native Hawaiian. Um, in addition to that, I'm also Japanese and Chinese and Mexican. And, coming from such a, a multi-ethnic background growing up in North [San Diego] County, I think that, my drive behind this event is one, bringing that diversity to North County that it hasn't seen a lot of in the past that, and maybe on this, on this level, right? Willis: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 14 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Mm-hmm. Martinez: The API [Asian & Pacific Islander] community being highlighted to this extent in this area, we're quite underrepresented. And I knew that going into this festival that our number one focus was always going to be on the educational aspect of it, and getting, you know, circling back to that, like when we understand other cultures, that we really begin to understand ourselves more, and we wanted to focus on this educational part because sometimes festivals can get quite, um, what's the word? Insular. Yeah. And we want to make it, we want folks to know that this festival's for everyone. You know, no matter what the background, no matter what the age, no matter what the locale that is for everybody to be able to come together and learn about API culture. Willis: Right. Gotcha. Martinez: So-Willis: Uh, so can you share your experience of how the event actually unfolded? Was it what you were hoping for? Was it a nice turnout? Martinez: Well, it's actually in three weeks. Willis: Oh, my mistake. <laughs> Martinez: <laughs>. So we're in the thick of it. Willis: Gotcha. Okay. I must have, misread that. My apologies. <laughs> My understanding is that it already happened earlier this year. Martinez: No worries. Willis: Okay. So it's happening in three weeks from now! Transcribed by Ryan Willis 15 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: Okay. That's awesome. So I guess, um, what are you expecting? Are you expecting it to be a pretty big turnout? Martinez: Well, that's what we're hoping for! <laughs> Willis: Of course. Martinez: Um, but as far as how it's unfolded, you know, it did just like anything, it's evolved. The, the, the vision has evolved a little bit. In, in, the, the, yeah, the vision and the mission have all evolved quite a bit, but as far as like what people can expect, because we wanted it to be, you know, educational, there you will find the typical things that you would find in a festival, yeah, is performances and vendors and food and things like that. But I think probably my most favorite part that has sort of evolved since the initial planning is this contemporary aspect of what API culture looks like. So, I mean, you can use K-Pop [Korean pop music] as a great example, right? Willis: Mm-hmm. Martinez: Like, and the phenomenon around K-pop and, where that came from. So initially we were focusing mostly on traditional practices and performances, but then we realized how many amazing API artists are out there and are deserving of recognition, but may not necessarily be practicing what would be considered a traditional art. So that's, I think I'm really excited to see what some of these performers are bringing, these API artists and performers are bringing to the festival. I think that's gonna be a really fun aspect of it. That was, for me, it was, it was an unexpected but pleasant surprise addition to the festival. Willis: Right. Absolutely. Uh, do you know about how many different ethnicities, cultures are gonna be represented at this event? Martinez: We have about, um, over 20. Willis: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 16 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Wow. Martinez: Yeah. We have about over 20. Willis: That's impressive. And a lot of them have just, have they been coming to you about it, or do you reach out to them? How does that usually work? Martinez: You know I, I'm really fortunate to have been embedded in the Pacific Islander community in San Diego since I, you know, the dance community is very close-knit. So I'm really fortunate to be able to reach out to other directors of performance groups that I am, I have relationships with. And they were the first ones to jump on and say, yes, we would love to support you. Um, so that was really how the momentum, started. Right? Because, you know, you start with one performance group and then another performance group. Oh! And then so-and-so's performing, and then another one. And so I wasn't as, connected within, the AA [African American] community though, and that has been an amazing experience is meeting other directors in their respective arts, like, <unclear> and, Lion Dance, and, because it's just, we are all, we're all the same at the end of the day. And um, so I, this initial year we did a huge, we did a lot of outreach. We have a great leadership team, and so between us and our outreach and our circles, we, we got a lot of support from folks. And it didn't take much of an ask. Folks really wanted to be a part of this. They really wanted this. Willis: I can imagine. That's fascinating. Martinez: Mm-hmm. Willis: So is there anything else that you uh, or how else do you continue to help, I guess Native Hawaiian culture and how can, for example, someone like myself get involved if they wanted to, kind of help and promote in that area? Martinez: Oh gosh. Um, oh, I'm sorry. Can you repeat that again? <laughs> Willis: So I guess what I'm really getting at, like how can someone else, if they really want to, you know, help and be a part of the cause, how would they go about doing that? Would they just reach out to you? Martinez: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 17 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Oh, yeah. I mean the, I mean, what, that's the irony in it, right? Is the majority of, of my supporters and our team are not Native Hawaiian. And, but it's that allyship and because they you know, believe in, in, in the mission they're absolutely willing to just jump in <laughs> and do whatever needs to be done. Um, so yeah, I mean anybody who ever want, who wants to be an ally, we are, we are here and happy and-Willis: Come on down! Martinez: Yes. Ready to, to you know, just grow our community. Willis: Right. That's so cool. So you kind of may have already answered this earlier but overall, as you reflect on everything you have done and accomplished to this point in your life, what are you most proud of and what has brought you the most joy? Has it been, maybe the hula aspect, um, teaching elders, children, or is there something else? Martinez: <laughs> Uh I think, it's my own children, right? That will always be my most proud accomplishment. <laughs> Them as individuals, but also taking that perspective again of what I really could have needed or wanted in my upbringing, I feel like I provided that for my children and have instilled that into my children. And, knowing that I know that they're gonna move forward and pass that on to their children, that's, that will always be my proudest accomplishment, knowing that the generations far after I'm gone, will still be carrying on those, on those traditions. Willis: Yeah. That's fantastic. And then, before we close our interview, is there anything else you would like to mention? Maybe something I didn't ask you about that you really were hoping I would or? <laughs> Martinez: Oh gosh. Um, not that I can think of. Um, yeah, no nothing <laughs> Willis: Okay. Yeah, no that's perfect. I think we definitely covered a lot of great stuff in this interview. So, really appreciate your time, Ilima. This was very informative. I think a lot of people can get a lot out of this whole interview and, really appreciate everything that you do for not only Hawaiian culture, but just the community in general. So thank you so much for your time. Martinez: Yeah, thank you. Willis: Transcribed by Ryan Willis 18 2023-05-25 �ILIMA KAM MARTINEZ Transcript, Interview 2023-04-07 Alright. <Martinez laughs> Now I'm gonna go ahead and stop the recording. Transcribed by Ryan Willis 19 2023-05-25 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Martinez, Ilima Kam. Interview transcript, April 7, 2023 Description An account of the resource Ilima Kam Martinez is a California State University San Marcos alum and the founder and President of UMEKE, an organization that promotes and preserves Hawaiian culture through hula dancing. In this interview, Ilima discusses her upbringing, the influence and relationship with her father, the importance of hula in Hawaiian cultures, the challenges she faced during the Covid-19 pandemic, her passion for elders, her mentors, going back to school to earn her degree, and her goals for UMEKE moving forward. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-07 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- Hawaii -- Culture Hawaii -- Social life and customs Hula (Dance) Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Hawaii San Diego County (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Hawaiian Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Ilima Kam Martinez License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-27 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ilima Kam Martinez Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ryan Willis Asian Pacific Islander Desi American experience Community history History Department internship Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Riccardo Savo Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dinah Poellnitz OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PoellnitzDinah_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-05.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 SC027 Poellnitz, Dinah. Interview April 5, 2023. SC027-025 1:06:11 SC027 California State University San Marcos Library Special Collections Oral History Collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Art -- Study and teaching Art galleries -- nonprofit Artists, Black Community Engagement Hill Street Country Club -- California -- Oceanside Los Angeles (Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) Vista (Calif.) Dinah Poellnitz Riccardo Savo Audio PoellnitzDinah_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-05 1:|12(18)|22(4)|33(2)|44(5)|57(13)|67(4)|77(15)|88(4)|102(14)|114(6)|130(6)|140(4)|150(11)|161(15)|173(4)|183(11)|196(7)|209(3)|220(15)|233(1)|245(3)|255(12)|265(16)|277(11)|287(10)|298(7)|310(4)|320(3)|333(12)|343(18)|354(1)|366(9)|376(1)|386(1)|397(2)|407(17)|424(2)|432(13)|442(5)|454(1)|463(7)|474(1)|485(3)|497(13)|508(2)|518(4)|531(5)|542(11)|553(12)|567(11)|578(4)|595(10)|605(12)|616(9)|627(5)|638(15)|648(10)|660(4)|668(10)|680(5)|690(5)|701(13)|710(8)|722(3)|736(6)|750(8) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4344d88bc2e671e3ad4b1f4ea85cfba8.wav Other audio English 40 Interest in Art and How Art Relates to Community Engagement Poellnitz discusses how she initially was exposed to art at the age of 11, where she began to take up drawing through a family friend. drafting material ; drawing ; North County ; Oceanside 216 High School and the 1990s Dinah Poellnitz describes how her interest in art coincided with the development and mainstreaming of hip-hip during the 1990s. She mentions how she was drawn to the expressionist element that art represented. dance ; hip-hop ; Oceanside,CA ; Vista,CA 246 Self-Engagement with Art Dinah Poellnitz elaborates on how her interest in fashion and making her own dresses instilled her creativity in making art with intention. She mentions her time at Santa Monica College where she got to see firsthand how art could be used as a language to communicate, organize, and protest. art intentionality ; fashion ; Santa Monica College ; Soul Train 508 Art History and University of California, Riverside Dinah Poellnitz discusses how her networking in college at both Santa Monica College and UC Riverside helped to expose her to the business part of art. Poellnitz decided to double major in art history and art administration to learn what it means to operate a studio gallery and exhibit. Amy Goodman ; Intentionality ; Politics ; Santa Monica College 606 Getting a Job in the Art Industry Dinah Poellnitz discusses more broadly how she transitioned from her initial job positions in Los Angeles, CA to San Diego's North County. Beginning with the Oceanside Museum of Art, Poellnitz's experience in volunteering with youth led to learning about civic engagement and city planning. Primarily, she focuses on the challenges and inequities that she observed amongst Black children who had no prior engagement with art materials and what it means to be an artist. Hill Street Country Club ; inequity ; Los Angeles ; North County ; Oceanside Museum of Art ; Vista, CA 1196 Artist Networking in San Diego and Oceanside Dinah Poellnitz mentions how her idea to create the Hill Street Country Club came from the contacts that she developed with other local artists in Oceanside. In particular, she recalls an instance she met the owner of the Link-Soul art space, Jeff Cunningham, who provided her with the opportunity to create a space of her own. Art Exhibitions ; Link-Soul ; Oceanside Education Department ; Oceanside Museum of Art 1546 The Networking and Structuring of the Hill Street Country Club Dinah Poellnitz elaborate on the two primary contacts that assisted in her founding of the Hill Street County Club. Jeff Cunningham ; Julia Fister ; Studio Ace Art Gallery 1652 Hill Street Country Club Art Exhibit and Activism Dinah Poellnitz discusses the challenges in funding that came in comparison to other local exhibits in the North County. Specifically, Poellnitz elaborates on how the Hill Street Country Club's artists all share similar outlooks on the art industry and how their work is a critique of social inequities. autonomy ; inequity ; microaggression ; social impact 2017 Hill Street Country Club and the Pandemic Dinah Poellnitz provides insight to how Hill Street Country Club had to adapt to the changes brought on by the 2020 pandemic and remain open despite other exhibits closing their doors. 2020 pandemic ; mental health 2222 The Economic Hardships of the Pandemic within the Art Community Dinah Poellnitz offers an insight on the effects that the traumatic events of police brutality had on those within the Black art community. Poellnitz reflects on the general mood and tone of the Oceanside community during the initial months of the pandemic. community conversations ; empathy ; liberation ; resources ; solidarity 2448 Changes in both Activism and Structure Dinah Poellnitz briefly mentions how Hill Street had to evolve over the course of the pandemic, providing the creative space to assist in the mental health crisis that developed over the course of 2020. group therapy ; Oceanside Unified School District ; The Social 2724 Oceanside Unified School District and Group Therapy for Middle School Children Dinah Poellnitz goes into detail discussing how Hill Street offered children from Jefferson Middle School group therapy sessions to handle with the stress from the pandemic. She elaborates on the lengths that Hill Street had to change to adhere to COVID protocols with social distancing and interaction. cohorts ; COVID-19 ; Jefferson Middle School ; social camp 3065 The Community Reception to Hill Street's Restructuring and Outreach Dinah Poellnitz describes how Hill Street became a model of inspiration during the pandemic for other exhibits to follow. She offers the reception that Hill Street received from the local community for their initiatives with the Oceanside Unified School District. budget ; gallery space ; impact ; influence 3512 The Future of the Hill Street County Club Dinah Poellnitz provides the vision that she hopes for the Hill Street Country Club, primarily the creation of a Community School. While much of this vision has not been enacted, Poellnitz offers some of the challenges that would come in the face of creating a K-12 community school. bigger institution ; community school ; organizations ; partnerships wav Oral History Interview of Dinah Poellnitz on April 5, 2023. Video briefly discusses Dinah Poellnitz’s community engagement within the city of Oceanside through art. In particular, the interview focuses on Poellnitz's involvement in the founding of the Hill Street Country Club art gallery in Oceanside, CA. Poellnitz discusses how to navigate through the art community as a Black woman, emphasizing the importance of equity and inclusion. Riccardo Savo: Awesome. Alright, so today is April 5th, 2023. I am Riccardo Savo, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. I&#039 ; m interviewing Dinah Poellnitz for the University Library Special Collections Oral Project. Thank you so much for being here with me today. Unfortunately, you&#039 ; re not able to have the video, so we&#039 ; ll just rely on audio today, which is perfectly fine. And I would like to begin quite broadly if we can, if you could tell me how you became interested in art and how you initially related it to the community or to community engagement. Dinah Poellnitz: Um, then that&#039 ; s like a childhood memory question for me. I&#039 ; m from North County. My dad came to Oceanside Camp Pendleton in the seventies. I was born in [19]76. I think my dad came out here in [19]78 and we lived on base and if you know anything about North County during that time, it was like, you go to church, you watch sports... and that was it, you know? And my mom&#039 ; s from the South. She&#039 ; s from Louisiana and you know, my mom&#039 ; s about church and we used to go to church all the time. And my mom had a friend named Carla. She was like a wacky woman too. She was just elusive, like all over the place. She used to be an architect and she saw that I loved to draw. And so one day she just gave me her drafting table and I was, I could, I think I was like in -- 11 years-old -- and she brought all her materials and stuff to my house and I was just like, whaaaat? It was like a whole new world. I was just like, wait... there&#039 ; s a table made just for drawing? That happens? You know, it was like one of those moments. And I used to dr-- I wanted to be a costume designer, so I used to draw dresses and fashion all the time on that table. And I had a whole setup. But I just remember just being this little kid who had my own little like, workspace and, and it was just for me to draw. And I was like, wow, there&#039 ; s a, there&#039 ; s... you could do this. Like, this is not a like day, you know, day drawing at home. This like, you could really do this as a, like, as an adult. So yeah, I was maybe like 11 and it was Carla from Fresh Bread Church. &lt ; laughter&gt ; Savo: That&#039 ; s awesome. So, you began this at age 11 and did you carry this through to your high school? Because I know you attended UC [University of California] Riverside and earned your Bachelor&#039 ; s in art history. Poellnitz: Yeah, I did. You know, like I was a kid that always made my own. Like I made my own. I designed dresses. I made my own prom dress. I sewed it, I wore it. I was heavily into -- It was the nineties in high school. And so, my parents, my dad retired, and then we moved outta Oceanside and moved to Vista for my high school years. And... it was hip-hop era, so I was like into dance and music. So that was all part of art and expression. But I remember wanting to be in the art clubs and I was just like, I can&#039 ; t if that, if art club&#039 ; s about realism and like drawing like things perfectly, I don&#039 ; t have time for that. That&#039 ; s real. I was just like, I don&#039 ; t even, I&#039 ; m not even curious to learn that. I don&#039 ; t wanna do that. Cause that&#039 ; s what art club was defined as in high school for me. Savo: So would you say that your engagement was more self-disciplined? It was more geared towards how you wanted to engage with it, or more or less, how you could find avenues to apply it? Poellnitz: Um, it was more intentional for me. You know, I like fashion, so I drew. I drew dresses and I designed a dress and I sewed a dress and I wore it. It was just, it was all intentional. It was like just being, it was an action, it was a language for me. It was... it was a skill, you know, I just thought very creatively all the time. Even when I was learning economics, I was thinking about it creatively so it can make sense for me. I think they say that artists are like divergent thinkers, you know? We always find or create and build and make an alternative solution to solve a problem in art. So that&#039 ; s kind of like that, that&#039 ; s a habit. Um, yeah, &#039 ; cause in, in high school, I used to go dancing. I used to go to like, this is corny as hell: I used to skip school and go to the Soul Train and dance in Soul Train in High School. I was just expressive. It was a very creative, like moment as a kid for me being in high school in the nineties, like hip hop was like jazzy like baggy and like there was more Black designers like Dubbo jeans and FUBU and all that stuff came out. So it was kinda like a Renaissance era, even though I lived in, in a little North County and, you know, Blacks were a smaller percent of the community. There&#039 ; s like, that culture was just present when I was in high school. So me not wanting-- Me not wanting to join like the art club for high school and draw something perfectly was just like, eh, I can have fun. That feels like studying for economics. I don&#039 ; t wanna do that right now. I wanna enjoy creativity right now. I don&#039 ; t wanna study it. I was not in that mood. It was just a part of my life, you know? So... and then I used to go to LA every summer when I was in high school to get away from North County and stay with my cousins who worked at movie theaters. And that&#039 ; s when I was exposed to like museums and galleries and, you know, and I took a class at Santa Monica College and that&#039 ; s when I learned like, oh snap, you can learn art history? This is more interesting than like actually drawing the horse, you know? Um, I just learned that art had intentions all the time. Like I was, I was also like poor, you know? And I&#039 ; m a, I come from a Black family, so to venture off into art, it&#039 ; s just like: you gotta make sure it makes money! My uncle in LA is like, what are you getting a degree in? Are you gonna be able to teach with that? I&#039 ; m just like, hmm, I don&#039 ; t know, you know, and, but I enjoy it and I excelled at it. And like, I had a teacher, I took like Japanese art history at Santa Monica College, and I was just blown away by the history, like the political history, the social impact, just like everything that you see in art, like how it&#039 ; s a reflection of like moments of history or just moments of inequity. I thought that was very interesting how artists could use that as a language to communicate, to organize, to protest, to be expressive of what they don&#039 ; t like in society. So yeah, I loved art history and that was like perfect for me. Cause when I think about it, I was into dance and music, hip-hop culture because it felt liberating. I designed and made my own prom dress because, you know, it gave me ownership. And those are like human right feelings. Savo: And speaking to that, about the ownership and the intentionality, your decision to do art history as a degree and as a major, was that a choice that you made? Was that a choice that you had made from Santa Monica to UC Riverside? Poellnitz: Mm-hmm Savo: OK- Poellnitz: It was intentional. Yeah. So I, when I was at Santa Monica, it was cool. I had a lot of friends and they were like all into politics. I saw Amy Goodman when I went to Santa Monica College. And so I had a lot of friends who were into like, the political and social justice part of education. And I was like, I wanna do art history. &lt ; laughs&gt ; I like it. I like pictures, I like reading-- images, I love that. I love telling, retelling those stories or using it as a form of communication. But I was like, I think I wanna-- I remember telling myself in our junior college, I wanted to have a gallery space. It was intentional. And I applied to all the schools that had the double major art history and art administrative &#039 ; cause I wanted to learn the business side and the admin part. I didn&#039 ; t know what I was gonna do. I didn&#039 ; t know I was gonna get the gallery, but I was like, &quot ; Hey, if I wanna work in a gallery, I need to have these skills or just to better understand it.&quot ; &#039 ; Cause I have to justify going to school for art history, not just to my family but to myself. Savo: And so you mentioned that you wanted this applicability, you know to translate the skills that you learned in your degree to, to real life and to getting a job. Poellnitz: Yeah to a job--. Savo: Could you tell me a little broadly about your experience with that community engagement and, and political activism and how that helped formulate what is now, you know, the Hill Street Country Club because it&#039 ; s a great gallery in Oceanside and you don&#039 ; t really think about Oceanside being, uh, very cultural. At least you know, the North County, South Bay, in terms of San Diego County in general. But how did that come about? Poellnitz: Um, well I finished school, lived in L.A. for quite a bit. Played assistant nanny manager, like these jobs separate from what I wanted to go to school for because I was living in L.A and I had to learn how to multitask. And I took on like a lot of assistant jobs and one day I was just like, I was working for lie celebrities and like producers and stuff and you know, I saw how things were operating behind the scene creatively for money. And then I also understood the realities of like creating for me and the possibilities. And so, you know, I always kept a job and one day I decided, like me, my husband, we split [up] and me and my little kid, we moved back to North County and I still had my L.A job. So, I was still commuting like three to four times a week from Vista to L.A for my job. Cause they paid me well. But I decided to start volunteering at the Oceanside Museum of Art and their education department, but they didn&#039 ; t have one yet. So, I ended up volunteering with the proprietors. I learned about installation at Oceanside Museum of Art and I was still, I still had my like feet in two different worlds. I was still in the L.A world, but also in my hometown world. I did work at Patricia Korea Gallery in Santa Monica, and that was a very eye-opening experience at the&lt ; inaudible&gt ; was in college. Just, she was like the only woman of color, like gallery owner. And she only represented brown artists at the time, which was very &lt ; inaudible&gt ; in Santa Monica. Well, but inequity in like the gallery world when I was in college with that job, I would apply to like the Getty and all types of museums when I lived in L.A. with my friends. But my friends would always get the job even though I had a better CV than them. You know you just accept it. And so I just went back to like doing assistant work and then I decided, I was like, you know what, like I&#039 ; m gonna lean a little heavy. Like now that I&#039 ; m back in Vista, I&#039 ; m gonna lean in a little bit more in North County and invest more of my time there. And so that&#039 ; s when I started volunteering at OMA [Oceanside Museum of Art]. Then I learned about the infrastructure of the museum world because, you know, I always wanted to work in a museum. I always thought museums were an amazing place to tell stories and educate. I never knew about the dark side of museums, you know, like how they get art and how they flip art and also like the politics of like hierarchy and institutions, you know, I learned-- I didn&#039 ; t know about that in school. No one ever talked about that in school. We only talked about art history. But once I started volunteering and then turned into a paid position at Oceanside Museum of Art, I learned about institutions really quickly, and I also learned not just about art institutions, but I also learned about like civic engagement and city planning because, I still had my, my foot in L.A so I was used to going to galleries and museums and seeing public art, having friends who got paid as full-time artists or had very creative jobs. I know what&#039 ; s possible. And so, you know, being back home, I just like, &quot ; okay, why don&#039 ; t we have public art again.&quot ; And then I had to like learn beyond what school taught me through experiences. Like, oh, public art is political and it&#039 ; s not, political is a message, it&#039 ; s political because you have to politically know how to create a system so that there can be public arts, right? At the time OMA, no one knew Oceanside Museum of Art exists. You know, 12 years ago no one knew. I didn&#039 ; t even know. I like googled and like looked for art spaces and I somehow, and only because I was intentionally looking for art space in North County, close to home, I found it. But it wasn&#039 ; t like it was vibrant and it was attracting people like me and they should be attracting people like me for living in LA and loving art. I didn&#039 ; t know it exists out of Google art spaces in North County. And that&#039 ; s how Oceanside using a popped up. And I noticed that they didn&#039 ; t have an education department. They had Julia Fister who was volunteering for the education department that she created as a volunteer because she had a big grant with Target to make sure every fifth grader goes to the museum. But she didn&#039 ; t have a office space or studio room for education. It was like she just came and sat at a table and made it happen and fifth graders came. And me and my business partner, Margaret Hernandez, we just decided, you know, we were both in education and we did all the docent tours with the fifth graders and the, and the workshops with them. And we just like had a lot of community conversations with young people, people in middle school, so you learned about their like starting point to art, who in the, in the classroom who visit[ed] that day, who had more access to art than others. Who had materials, who been to museum. You know, you learn so much about the demographics and like, I&#039 ; m sorry but the demographics were pretty like astounding when you see majority of the Brown/Black kids saying this is their first time. You know. Or you have students ask you if they could take home some of the like, crayons or pastels at home so they can keep drawing. You&#039 ; re just like, dang, kids don&#039 ; t have like crayons? Like how do you not have crayons? You know it-- Or kids asking like, or the one kid who&#039 ; s just like, who knows about art but like, how do artists even make money? Like kids would ask those questions all the time. How do artists even make money? Like what do art, what can artists do? You know? And those were conversations for me &#039 ; cause I was always intentional. I was just like artists designed your shirt, the artist probably designed like a machine that&#039 ; s in the hospital that you are using, artists design buildings. I&#039 ; m like, art is involved in literally your whole life. You just don&#039 ; t know it. And you probably could have more, but you just don&#039 ; t know it. Right? And so I just started asking questions about how do we get more murals? How do we get public art? How do we have art walk? And I learned that I had to like volunteer with like Main Street, like a commerce type of org, who had a relationship with the city to get extra funding for projects for the city. I had to learn about that dynamic. I learned about putting things on the docket. Like I learned how art was, wasn&#039 ; t just like creative, but it was also political and it was also like [it] required you to engage in the system to understand how to create public art opportunities. You know, it&#039 ; s just, we didn&#039 ; t, Oceanside didn&#039 ; t have an infrastructure for art. Like we&#039 ; ve made a lot of improvement, but we didn&#039 ; t have an infrastructure, we had an arts commission, but it was it was in silo and they weren&#039 ; t funding anything and they were just meeting each other, talking about projects around town, you know? The museum wasn&#039 ; t engaged at the time. It was, it was treated more like a private gallery space than a public space. And it was, &#039 ; cause you know, Oceanside Museum of Art is not owned by the city. It&#039 ; s owned by a group of retirees, you know, and there&#039 ; s a lot there. There&#039 ; s also the retirement culture that you have to deal with. Like when we started Hill Street, we were very engaged with our friends and our family and community members. And we worked with people who couldn&#039 ; t get a space or an exhibition. We worked with those artists and they brought their family and friends. Like, it was a gathering opportunity for people. It made sense. Savo: And how were you able to attract these different artists? Were these artists specifically located in Oceanside or were they spread out through across San Diego County? Poellnitz: No it started in Oceanside. It was our friends first. We grew like a concentric circle, if that makes any sense. It was, um, we fit Hill Street like artist, personal, communal, universal. And like this, if I think about how we grew as a concentric circle, it was very personal for me, Marj, to begin Hill Street Country Club because the museum was rejecting all our ideas and they were not being cool or like easily invested in education. They made it very hard for Oceanside Museum of Art to create an education department at the time. And so in support of an education department, because we, you know, we did those docents and we listened to young people. So I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; you need an education department. It&#039 ; s necessary.&quot ; We supported Julia and her vision to make an education department for the museum. And we tried to throw our first fundraiser for that vision of hers. And the museum would say no to us. Like, we&#039 ; re like, &quot ; Hey, can we do a fundraiser for the education department?&quot ; And they&#039 ; re like, no. And then we&#039 ; re asked like, &quot ; Can we borrow some chairs and tables for a fundraiser?&quot ; &quot ; Uh, not right now. No.&quot ; And basically like we knew we need an education department like, Oceanside, if you&#039 ; re gonna have Oceanside Museum of Art and you&#039 ; re taking up the city&#039 ; s name and you&#039 ; re having fifth graders come in and you&#039 ; re getting grant money, you need to have an education department, right? And that&#039 ; s just common sense to us. And so we told all our friends the idea of having a fundraiser for the Oceanside Museum of Arts Education Department to support Julia. And one day I was like driving home to dinner to meet Margaret and I saw that the Link-Soul building light was on and they were having a gallery show. And I walked in there and I was just like, this is the art space? And Jeff, who is the co-owner of Link-Soul was just like, yeah. And I was like, this is interesting. I was just so shocked to see a gallery that had a show. And the next day I went over there and met Jeff, someone got him, and I introduced myself and I pitched our fundraiser idea. He, like, he said yes to me, to like using this space for free. And so that was our first event that we organized, and it was called &quot ; Open to the Public&quot ; and it was about, you know, the need for art education. It was a fundraiser for OMA. And so, we just asked all our friends who were artists in North County and then like people who I went to school with, &#039 ; cause I was taking classes at Miracosta for fun, for art and asking teachers to support it. We had a big turnout, and we were able to donate to the education department and purchase art materials and bags for every fifth grader of Oceanside for that year that visited the museum on that program. So that was like the first time where we were just like, wait, this was successful. People are thirsty. Like it&#039 ; s not just us who want [to] have more like community opportunities, you know, with art. So like I said, it&#039 ; s like we grew a concentric circle because we started off very, it was very personal for us to do that. And then once we had our first event, we understood the like community purpose. Like, oh this is not just us, this is a community issue too. We want, we want more opportunities to do stuff like this and we don&#039 ; t have it. It was like, &quot ; I want more of this. Like how do we, how do we keep doing this?&quot ; And so me, Margaret, just because we couldn&#039 ; t afford our own space and I still working back and forth in L.A, we just did pop-up art shows for like two solid years all over Oceanside. And then we went to community art events or like art events in San Diego because they had more of a presence of art for us back then, &#039 ; cause we weren&#039 ; t really doing much as a city. So, we would go to events and openings in San Diego all the time. I don&#039 ; t know, it was this became very like, personal and communal. And then most of our artists are like working class, queer, young, old, um, more vulnerable, you know, and to like, to all kinds of things. And so, like most of them never had an opportunity to have an exhibition. They like paint it for themselves or put their art in a store, but no one&#039 ; s ever invited them to do an exhibition. And we would just invite artists for exhibition. But it was a curated experience, you know, and a lot of it was just, we choose artists that, that we shared messages with. I don&#039 ; t know, it just became a very organic growth. Savo: This is excellent to learn about. &#039 ; Cause I didn&#039 ; t know that there&#039 ; s so much underneath, in terms of the layering, in terms of structuring, in terms of networking that&#039 ; s involved. Could you just clarify briefly who exactly Jeff and Julia are in relation to the Hill Street Country Club? Poellnitz: So Julia Fister at the time was the education director at the Oceanside Museum of Art. And she was one of my- me and Margaret&#039 ; s mentor. She now owns Studio Ace in Oceanside where it&#039 ; s focused on youth and like art education, which is really cool cause she&#039 ; s in the valley. Very much needed over there. And then Jeff, Jeff Cunningham is a artist but is the creative director for Link -Soul, which is a golf apparel company. Their design team is based in downtown San Diego. And we share, we co-op a space with them. That&#039 ; s where we have our gallery. And Jeff Cunningham is a phenomenal artist. Like I curated him for a show for Oceanside Museum of Art. And our friendship, just like it grew from like me being a curator and an artist and him being an artist and us really like exchanging ideas about social impact and how do we create an art space that&#039 ; s different, that&#039 ; s more authentic and doesn&#039 ; t have all these pressures to over-perform, be productive. And so like, it&#039 ; s natural. It&#039 ; s interesting &#039 ; cause he said yes to us having our first art show at his space and then he ended up giving us this space for Hill Street. Savo: That&#039 ; s awesome. And since Hill Street has been open and been around in the community, how has the gallery become that space where it&#039 ; s not just the ideas or expressions that are being presented, but how has that space become a platform really, sorry... How has that space become a platform for activism? Because, you know, you noted in a 2020 interview with KPBS that art is a functioning tool that should transition off the canvas. Poellnitz: Hmm-hmm. Savo: How has Hill Street Country Club played in that part? Poellnitz: You know, it&#039 ; s so funny cause every time I get asked like, &quot ; oh are you an artist too?&quot ; Like,&quot ; yeah, I&#039 ; m an artist, I make work, but I don&#039 ; t make it anymore.&quot ; I was like, I make, I build art, you know, I can build stuff. But right now, my art is Hill Street Country Club, and you know, it&#039 ; s, it goes back to college and me like learning about all like the social impact and inequities in the world through art history. It goes back to that. And it goes back to like, you know, artists are some of the most vulnerable people because first of all, you&#039 ; re not respected with pay whatsoever, &#039 ; cause you have to remember like, I knew I had to get paid to do this or I shouldn&#039 ; t be doing it. I should be like a teacher or an engineer or a therapist. Like, you went to school for art and people need to get paid for that. So we live, we live in North County where there&#039 ; s, we were spending like 10 cents per residence on art funding while like San Diego at the time was spending ten dollars. So, and then also trying to convince older peers in the art community that they had to pay for admin stuff that we organized. And then thinking that everyone had time to volunteer because at the end of the day, we had a large retirement class that was in charge of the art community in Oceanside and Vista. You know, they didn&#039 ; t see the value of paying younger people to help them with the arts, you know, there&#039 ; s uh cultural differences. And that being said, you know, to get paid is not just like, to get paid is the equity issue, right? And then not only to get, you know, to get paid is the equity issue. And if you&#039 ; re like Black and people don&#039 ; t even take you that, if you look at the museum stats and gallery stats for like, artists and like people who make it, you already know. You&#039 ; re like, you&#039 ; re dealing with so many microaggressions, you&#039 ; re dealing with some unresolved supremacy issues. Like I always tell folks like, hey, check this out. Like, um, it&#039 ; s okay if you&#039 ; re racist, I get it. You&#039 ; re not me. You don&#039 ; t have these experiences and you have to unlearn and I&#039 ; m gonna give you grace to unlearn, but I&#039 ; m always gonna speak up for what I-- what you did. And I&#039 ; m gonna not call you out, but I&#039 ; m just gonna call you in and say like, &quot ; hey you know what you did was kind of racist could you not do that?&quot ; And I learned that was always like a threat to people when I was honest and like gave them grace at the same time. And I learned in the art community that they&#039 ; re not ready for those conversations at all. Or like, just to like unlearn and do better. So, but because I have ownership of my space and I don&#039 ; t work for anyone and I don&#039 ; t have a board that disagrees with my politics, I have a lot more autonomy than a lot of my artist friends or my art admins who work in museums and high-end gallery spaces. And so I get to embrace artists that are political, who are in the streets, who are organizing, who are building different collectives or opportunities for relief or whatever they believe in. I have a beautiful space. I also share my autonomy with them and I support their work. And because I believe in equity too. Cause I&#039 ; m trying to get paid, I&#039 ; m dealing with microaggressions. This is personal. Like what, what affects you is affecting me. And also, I&#039 ; m like, I just don&#039 ; t like people being in pain. I&#039 ; m an empathetic person. I, I don&#039 ; t know, I&#039 ; m pretty radical politically, so I have to-- if I have my own autonomy, I&#039 ; m gonna use it. I&#039 ; m not gonna shy away from that. And the artists that I admire were doing that. It went that I was learning art history. They were telling a story, they was telling us how wrong this was and that was. Like, they&#039 ; re pointing out problems and they&#039 ; re doing it in the nuances of art. And I think it&#039 ; s very important for artists to tell those stories so people can gather and discuss and find solutions or to just build creative- what is it critical mass? No, I think it&#039 ; s critical mass is like valuable, once you learn it&#039 ; s not just yourself. It&#039 ; s like a Power in Numbers game. Savo: Would you say that speaking to it&#039 ; s a power in numbers game, do you think that that has changed your perspective on the, the personal communal and universal experience that Hill Street Country Club offers? Because obviously since it&#039 ; s opened, now since the pandemic 2020, do you think that it&#039 ; s become a situation where art more than ever needs to be more expressionist or more, um, as you say, it has to be more, you know--? Poellnitz: Yeah,-Savo: It has to be more- Poellnitz: It should be. It should be. You know I was just talking to my colleague Astrid Gonzalez, she is one of the Hill Street colleagues. She does all our audio-visual stuff. And she was reflecting the other day and she was like, &quot ; we really never stopped working during the pandemic.&quot ; I was like, we didn&#039 ; t, we couldn&#039 ; t afford to. We&#039 ; re vulnerable. We don&#039 ; t have board members with money. We don&#039 ; t have-- like the reason why we can do all that we do is because we have people aligned with our principals who agree with us and who are not scared support what we&#039 ; re doing. But at the same time, to get paid in this art world, you gotta have some like, dirty person on your board. That&#039 ; s just reality. Like, you gotta think money. And it&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s just how it works. It&#039 ; s an institution. Like every institution in America has flaws, right? And during the pandemic, we stayed open. We were very creative of finding creative ways to stay open and accessible to our audience and to our artists. Cause a lot of my artists during the pandemic were dealing with poverty, food, needed food, like, mental health. The pandemic was messing people up in the first like two years. And a lot of my artists were affected by that. I worked with a lot of Brown and Queer and old artists, you know, and in this economy, they were suffering. And so, I had to figure out how to be a safe space and use my space for opportunities for people to get access to food or help folks get access to mental health services or even a distraction like coming, making art. I had to stay open for two and a half years during the pandemic, while a lot of big museums were closing and doing bare minimum because they didn&#039 ; t wanna get Covid. So, I don&#039 ; t know, my space has always evolved and adapt, because it has to. Savo: Speaking to- Poellnitz: Right now--Go ahead- Savo: Oh no, go ahead. Poellnitz: I forgot what I was going to say, go ahead. Savo: Speaking to the space having evolved, you mentioned that Hill Street became a space that allowed for those economic hardships of the pandemic, to kind of be alleviated for your artists. Could you speak about the political upheaval? Because we all lived through 2020 and we all know how painful it was during April, May, April through June of 2020. How did that come about? How was Hill Street a space for comfort, a space for expression? Poellnitz: Yeah, that was interesting. Cause like I&#039 ; m the only like Black gallery owner in San Diego. And I&#039 ; ve been doing this for so long that I, I belong to extended part of the San Diego art community that a lot of folks don&#039 ; t see in North County. Like I know a lot of people in museums and galleries and stuff like that. And I know a lot of people in City government and Federal government. And so, you know, during that time it was just like, this is when you make art. This is when you talk about these issues and you use art as a language and as a tool to have these community conversations. But also, this was also opportunity for us to do mutual aid. We went into care mode, like how do we care more about people? Like how do we care back? Like how do we take care of each other? Because during that time we know who&#039 ; s not taking care of us, we know who doesn&#039 ; t protect us. And it was more like being available to protect and provide care. I kind of miss those days. Those were the days where we were talking about liberation and how to use resources to create safe, safer communities. We were talking about solutions for the first time out loud as a public. We were sharing empathy with each other. I thought it was a beautiful opportunity for us to build something new. But it was also beautiful to see that we could be in solidarity. I had people who knew me in the business community of Oceanside, but never went to our events. Always knew what I was doing if I went into their store or their restaurant or coffee shop or whatever. And that was the first time a lot of those folks came out and donated to us. &lt ; laughs&gt ; You know, like checked on us. And I was like, &quot ; Wow, this is the first-time people cared about what we are doing over here. Like, this is interesting.&quot ; And I think there was a fear for a lot of folks like &quot ; I hope this isn&#039 ; t discourage her.&quot ; Or maybe I&#039 ; m just thinking that in my head, I don&#039 ; t know. But I did see a lot of people come out the woodworks who started supporting us. And it gave us funding to create more programming and we kept going. So, I don&#039 ; t know. I was just adapting. I think that&#039 ; s what you do when you&#039 ; re in survival mode all the time. Savo: And since the pandemic, obviously the adapting to the circumstance and situation, have there been any local projects or exhibits that you&#039 ; ve, partaken in or helped organize that reflect those changing structures or those change in activism? Cause you mentioned a lot about talking about solutions and you mentioned how there&#039 ; s this real need for concern for one another, this care for one another. Has there been any of these projects that reflect that? Poellnitz: Yeah so we got really involved during the pandemic. We created like a mental health like group therapy program for young middle school kids, &quot ; The Social,&quot ; and it was just like, we had a license. We have a licensed therapist, one of our artists, and it&#039 ; s like a group therapy through art, but also peer on peer because a lot of young folks were isolated from each other during the pandemic. And they&#039 ; re still coping with, you know the environment they had to live in, to stay away from everyone and not getting us sick to die. That&#039 ; s kind of traumatic. And then we&#039 ; re asking them to like, go back to normal real quick so we can jumpstart our economy. So we created a program, &quot ; The Social,&quot ; with the therapist for young people. And now we&#039 ; re gonna be part of the Oceanside Unified School District programming for summer, fall, and winter, I mean summer, fall and spring now. So we&#039 ; re now like, we created a program that&#039 ; s gonna be in the school system that provides mental healthcare for young people who need it the most. And then we just recently had an exhibition with &lt ; inaudible&gt ; Roca Gonzalez, who lives in Oceanside, who&#039 ; s from Puerto Rico. And they&#039 ; re working about all these social issues and we&#039 ; re coming together and recognizing we are a product of gentrification and colonialism. We live through it every single day. Like we have all this architectural vernacular that reminds us that we&#039 ; re all living through this. It&#039 ; s not just Puerto Rico, you know, it&#039 ; s everywhere. We&#039 ; re all surviving. I&#039 ; ve been able to sit on a lot of committees and boards and be part of more equitable decision making for artists that I&#039 ; m excited about that&#039 ; s gonna be coming out soon with the city of San Diego, helping a lot of like artists get access to money. That was like one thing that I did during the pandemic, was I did sign up on committees and boards because I&#039 ; m just like, &quot ; You guys are making this process way too difficult for people who have to work full-time jobs and take care of family.&quot ; Not everyone&#039 ; s out here just being an artist on retirement mode and can fill out all these questions and type all these like, letters of intent. You gotta make this more equitable-like process for like poor people with very limited time, you know? So it was part of a San Diego artist project that raised like $150K for artists in San Diego. And we made the process so easy that a lot more like trans and BIPOC artists actually applied and received funding to be a artist over the pandemic. That was amazing. I mean once I decided I was committed to equity and inclusion for myself, everything I do affects everyone. As a Black woman, it just does naturally, like we&#039 ; re-- The stats prove it. If you improve my life or if you improve my life in your surrounding, you benefit from it. Like literally, like if Dinah says she wants more vacation days, I work too much and because I, and I don&#039 ; t normally give vacation day. Oh my God, imagine if you give it to me, you&#039 ; re gonna have to give it to my coworker. Not everything I want, everything I need because equity benefits everyone. So I understand a lot of my personal experience or communal experiences and has universal like means that needs &lt ; inaudible&gt ; . Savo: And I was just curious, because we were speaking about these different programs and different committees that were happening during the pandemic. Before we jump back to the equity portion that I&#039 ; m really fascinated to know more about, how were these committees and how were these programs organized? Were they all organized remotely? Were these children or these group therapy sessions that you mentioned, where were they held remotely or was there a creative space for that? Poellnitz: We did it at the gallery space every Saturday. Every Saturday. And our therapist had a baby. So, they&#039 ; re coming, they&#039 ; re gonna go back in the summer. They&#039 ; re gonna start back in the summer and we&#039 ; re gonna be at Jefferson Middle School. Last year we had a four-week social camp with them, with community artists and the therapists as a camp. And it was four weeks of campers and we had four cohorts of students and we&#039 ; re returning to that program in the summer. And we&#039 ; ll be returning with like regular art programming with Oceanside Unified School District on top of providing the Saturday space for the students again for group therapy. Savo: And I&#039 ; m also curious to know like what kind of activities were these students engaged in when it came to the group therapy sessions? Because obviously this is a period where, it&#039 ; s a lot of, where social distancing was a very key thing and masking was also very important. How are these exercises or how are these sessions organized? What were these specific activities? Poellnitz: Well, it&#039 ; s so interesting &#039 ; cause we kept over going through the whole pandemic. We, Hill Street changed its whole operation system to be more appointment-based. And we created capacities. We were very highly sensitive about Covid, like people had to wear masks all the time. We provided, Dr. Bronner&#039 ; s used to donate tons of like hand sanitizer. Like we used to give like little packets out to people who came visit the gallery space. If anyone wanted to see an exhibit, they make an appointment. They would have the space to themselves for 20 minutes to visit the exhibit. And we wouldn&#039 ; t be in the space with them. We&#039 ; ll be like upstairs above where, you know, the distance, like it basically were by themselves. And then with &quot ; The Social,&quot ; &quot ; The Social&quot ; was like every Saturday. We had a capacity, I believe of like eight students at a time. And so, we have the space for people to spread out. And then everyone had materials. I mean, it was really easy to manage. I think when people care for each other and they care that they have a safe space, people make sure they don&#039 ; t show up sick. People made sure to wash their hands. People made sure to keep their masks on. We did have a lot of workshops on Zoom. We had a lot of artist&#039 ; s talks on Zoom. We had like -- what is it called? We had AR [augmented reality] gallery exhibitions. So if you couldn&#039 ; t see the work in person, we recreate gallery space online, and people can navigate and look at art online as if it was in a gallery space. Savo: That&#039 ; s really interesting-- Poellnitz: Yeah, we did a mobile art workshop. We got a grant right before the pandemic hit and we were supposed to have all this programming in every community center in Oceanside, but it was Covid and so we had to adapt, and &#039 ; cause they already gave us the money for it. So, we created a mobile art kit and like a lunch bag and it was like all the materials to like the perfect measurement and quantity that you needed for that project. We had our exhibition artists create a project and give us a list of materials for that project. And we used to do like a whole visual, like YouTube recording of how to create the piece. And then we did like a live Zoom and Instagram workshop, but anyone with a library card was getting mailed a mobile art workshop kit from us. Yeah so, we did a lot of organizing through the pandemic to stay open. It wasn&#039 ; t just simply being open, like we had to reorganize like our operations. We created an appointment system, we created more QR codes for people instead of like, there was no reason for anyone to touch anything in this space. People were able to pull out their phones and QR code and read like the show statement. And then we had Zoom workshops and people will get their MOD kits and you know, we did a lot of cool things on Zoom. It was fun. I don&#039 ; t know, you just learn how to care for people! Savo: What do you think was the-- &lt ; Poellnitz and Savo talking over each other&gt ; I&#039 ; m sorry. Poellnitz: Go ahead, no you go ahead. Savo: What do you think was the reception towards all these different restructuring and different outreach? Were people positive? Poellnitz: People were positive. People were very positive. And not only just positive, but our audience grew. We were more accessible to people outside of Oceanside. Savo: Do you think that broadened the scope of Hill Street? Do you think it helped? Do you think it helps sort of bring a lot of those ideas and those concepts from the North County down to the South Bay? Poellnitz: Oh for sure. When I moved to Normal Heights a year and a half ago and people were like, &quot ; oh, you&#039 ; re here now. I&#039 ; m like, yes.&quot ; And then just we love everything that you&#039 ; re, like, people from the arts commission knows what we&#039 ; re doing. Like I see a lot of gallery spaces and museums who are working with artists I worked with now. Worked with like five years ago, two years ago. I see the influence of our work on visuals. I see a lot of art spaces in San Diego, like institutions with bigger budgets, now creating visuals about their space. And I know we influenced people over the pandemic. They tell me and sometimes their programs look like it. It&#039 ; s wild. And it&#039 ; s like, wow. We did a lot over the pandemic while they sat still and they just watched us. Jeff always tell me, he&#039 ; s like, &quot ; you can&#039 ; t be mad if people are copying. Isn&#039 ; t that what you want?&quot ; I was like, &quot ; Oh yeah, that&#039 ; s how that works, huh?&quot ; Like, you influence people and they do the things you want them to do. Like have more like Queer folks or Black people or do more of this type of art. Like, oh they are listening, that is an impact. I didn&#039 ; t think about it like that. And he&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Yeah you just keep doing what you&#039 ; re doing. If they wanna do what you&#039 ; re doing in, see how far you can teach them, see how far they&#039 ; re willing to go.&quot ; And you know, that&#039 ; s, that&#039 ; s been like the best advice I&#039 ; ve ever had doing this work. Because it&#039 ; s true. When you have autonomy and you could do whatever you want or say whatever you want, or stand by what you believe in, you have a bigger impact than the person who&#039 ; s quiet and not doing anything &#039 ; cause they&#039 ; re scared. Savo: And speaking to that, that wanting to take initiative and be expressive. How does that coincide with some of the challenges that you were mentioning earlier about equity and inclusion? How do those two sort of intertwine with one another? Poellnitz: Dude, it&#039 ; s because it hurts. Because a lot of like organizations, a lot of people who do fund the arts are scared. They just scared of change. People are scared of change. And so there&#039 ; s always gonna be resistance. There&#039 ; s always gonna be the folks with resources who can like, jump like pounce on your idea. And because they have money, they can do it sooner and faster and get more visibility. That&#039 ; s gonna happen. It is exhausting. It wears you down, it discourages. Makes it harder for you to get access to grants or, or donors. But then at the same time, I&#039 ; ve just been thinking about this a lot lately. Cause you know, Hill Street, we&#039 ; re at a point where I&#039 ; m kind of exhausted, but at the same time I know why I&#039 ; m exhausted and I gotta do things differently and I have to be a little bit more strategic now, like where I wanna go because I notice that a lot of people are watching us. And then people have a lot of expectations for us. And there&#039 ; s also a lot of opportunities for us in the position that we&#039 ; re in because of the work that we&#039 ; ve done over the last ten years, you know? And especially the work that got highlighted during the George Floyd protest era. So, like I&#039 ; m hyper aware and I&#039 ; m being a little bit more wise about who I partner with. I&#039 ; m being a little bit more wise on how often I say no because I was a person that never said no before. And because I never said no, I got burnt out and not paid a lot. And I&#039 ; m learning that me as a Black woman, my rest is very important, but it&#039 ; s also important that I have equity so I can get paid to do this work. So, I&#039 ; ve just been thinking about how to slow down and sometimes less is more like I don&#039 ; t have to be over the place. I just need to be effective where I have intentions. So, it&#039 ; s like pulling back to that personal space has been going on with us lately. Like this being more local, bringing it all in, focusing on what we&#039 ; re strong at, getting into contract with the Oceanside Unified School District. Like that&#039 ; s a healthy source of funding for us. Instead of chasing donors who don&#039 ; t share our principles, I think artists and art organizers need to ask themselves like &quot ; Why are you here? What vision do you have? What community you belong to? What are your principles?&quot ; I think those are questions that anyone in the arts needs to ask themselves. Just be honest with yourself and if you could be honest with yourself, you should always know the choices that you&#039 ; re making. For me, I realize I wanna be my own institution and there&#039 ; s gonna be some hardship &#039 ; cause I won&#039 ; t be conforming to a lot of institutional like practices. I will be creating new practices. I&#039 ; m highly aware of the up and down of this art world for me. For me. And I&#039 ; m honest with myself. So it&#039 ; s easier for me to commit, but because I&#039 ; m honest with myself, I create ways that can sustain me. Like, I do more like art consulting jobs. I collaborate more with non-art, institutional spaces, you know? I work a lot more with community members who are in the political scene. So I understand like the fluidity of art. And if you&#039 ; re heavily relying on the same funders that fund the problem, yeah I would have concerns for the equity. But if you are creative and you know your worth and you are honest with yourself about why you&#039 ; re here, you always can find a solution. And because that&#039 ; s what&#039 ; s worked for me. Savo: And speaking to equity and how Hill Street has evolved over the past ten years, what do you think are some of the things that you personally wanna see for the Hill Street Club? You mentioned that you prefer more local engagement. You prefer being with individuals that are more like-minded in terms of art expression, in terms of inclusion. What are some of the hopes that you have for Hill Street moving forward? Poellnitz: I would love to have a community school. I want a community school. I worked for a nonprofit in City Heights and we worked with community schools that worked with juvies. They call them JCCS like Juvenile and Correction Community Schools. And they&#039 ; re like directly tied to the unified school district and the court system. At one point when I was heavily involved in politics, I was working with a former city council member in hopes of becoming like a divergent program for youth in the arts. So like, if a kid got arrested for the first time, instead of like putting them on probation and sending them to jail, you send them to like a diversion program. And the city of Carlsbad Police Department is the only police department in San Diego County that has an actual diversion program for youth. And so, you know, you get to be an organization as a choice for, for young folks and teach &#039 ; em all the skills, like how to create programming, how to run programming, how to make art. It&#039 ; s like a six-month commitment. I wanna do something more like that. I wanna have a community school. I wanna teach art the way that I experience art, the way that artists experiencing art. I wanna create a new institutional space for art practice. I don&#039 ; t know, I just really wanna grow as a bigger institution, as a choice, as an alternative choice to other places. Savo: And obviously you&#039 ; ve given a lot of thought to the idea of this community school and obviously diversion programs as well, such as Carlsbad&#039 ; s. Do you see potentially a branching out of Hill Street? Moving forward within not just North County, but also San Diego County as a whole? Do you see elements of what you&#039 ; ve been able to create and to adapt with? Do you see any of that being replicated any elsewhere in the County? Poellnitz: Um, not yet, but we partner with a lot of folks in San Diego so we are very unique because we have to adapt. One thing you learn about our institutions, old ones, they can&#039 ; t adapt. So, when they can&#039 ; t adapt, they move slow. They struggle with adapting. And one thing about us, because we don&#039 ; t, we don&#039 ; t follow institutional like, uh wisdom. A lot of us are taking in diverse knowledge from each other, practicing being inclusive. And once you do that as an action, you can make decisions a lot sooner than later. And so we&#039 ; ve been doing a lot of like partnerships and pop-ups with a lot of orgs in San Diego. I just want a community school. I want a community school. I want studio spaces for artists. I would like to have a choice for young people to learn about art and not just learn about art but have creative access to like a space where they can learn about the world and express themselves. Like I would like to have a community school. I have no aspirations to be all over San Diego County. That sounds like a lot of work. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Savo: Oh, absolutely &lt ; laughs&gt ; Poellnitz: And I worked with a lot of people in San Diego County. I love you San Diego, but North County is so special. Like us North County people, we are so innovative &#039 ; cause we&#039 ; ve had so little. And when we learn something new, we master it because we don&#039 ; t have all the museums in galleries and big budgets that San Diego has or L.A has. So we are very mom and pop and DIY in North County and we support each other. And so, I don&#039 ; t know, that&#039 ; s the civic identity for me. You know, that&#039 ; s part of my civic identity. Savo: And speaking to this, sort of bring it all back in identity, the personal, the communal, the universal that Hill Street represents. Do you think that a community school would be a perfect foster for that? And I&#039 ; m just curious about the age groups. Something I&#039 ; m actually quite interested about, would this be open to not just middle schools, the middle school age range that Oceanside education part has worked with, but would you extend that? Would you put a limited K through 12 per example? Poellnitz: I don&#039 ; t know. I don&#039 ; t know. That&#039 ; s a lot of years. &lt ; laughs&gt ; Savo: It&#039 ; s a lot of funding. Poellnitz: It&#039 ; s a lot of funding. I know that the folk at Link-Soul, they run the Goat Hill Golf course in Oceanside and it&#039 ; s already been promised to us that we will build some type of like, institution space for a community school one day. So, we&#039 ; re all dreaming like what we wanted to have. Savo: That&#039 ; s awesome. And just before we wrap up our interview here today, was there anything that we had previously discussed or discussed throughout the interview that you wanted a little bit more emphasis on or anything that you wanted to touch base with before we end today? Poellnitz: I don&#039 ; t think so. You&#039 ; re fine. Savo: Awesome. Again, thank you so much for this interview. It was really informative, and I think it&#039 ; s great to learn about how art has really grown in North County. Because I&#039 ; m from the South Bay, so I wouldn&#039 ; t know too much. But I think this was a great experience and I thank you a lot for that. Poellnitz: Oh, thank you, I appreciate that. https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PoellnitzDinah_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-05.xml PoellnitzDinah_SavoRiccardo_2023-04-05.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Poellnitz, Dinah. Interview April 5, 2023. Description An account of the resource Oral History Interview of Dinah Poellnitz on April 5, 2023. Interview discusses Dinah Poellnitz’s community engagement within the city of Oceanside through art. In particular, the interview focuses on Poellnitz's involvement in the founding of the Hill Street Country Club art gallery in Oceanside, CA. Poellnitz discusses how to navigate through the art community as a Black woman, emphasizing the importance of equity and inclusion. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-025 Subject The topic of the resource Art -- Study and teaching Art galleries -- nonprofit Artists, Black Community engagement COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- Hill Street Country Club -- California -- Oceanside Women artists Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dinah Poellnitz Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Los Angeles (Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) Vista (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Dinah Poellnitz Activists and activism Art and artists Black experience Community history History Department internship Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/24d0b5f1274c5333980a77f42e10980f.pdf fc3ce6202a3c7ec1f83a9311a0316116 PDF Text Text DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Riccardo Savo: Awesome. Alright, so today is April 5th, 2023. I am Riccardo Savo, a graduate student at California State University of San Marcos. I'm interviewing Dinah Poellnitz for the University Library Special Collections Oral Project. Thank you so much for being here with me today. Unfortunately, you're not able to have the video, so we'll just rely on audio today, which is perfectly fine. And I would like to begin quite broadly if we can, if you could tell me how you became interested in art and how you initially related it to the community or to community engagement. Dinah Poellnitz: Um, then that's like a childhood memory question for me. I'm from North County. My dad came to Oceanside Camp Pendleton in the seventies. I was born in [19]76. I think my dad came out here in [19]78 and we lived on base and if you know anything about North County during that time, it was like, you go to church, you watch sports... and that was it, you know? And my mom's from the South. She's from Louisiana and you know, my mom's about church and we used to go to church all the time. And my mom had a friend named Carla. She was like a wacky woman too. She was just elusive, like all over the place. She used to be an architect and she saw that I loved to draw. And so one day she just gave me her drafting table and I was, I could, I think I was like in -- 11 years-old -- and she brought all her materials and stuff to my house and I was just like, whaaaat? It was like a whole new world. I was just like, wait... there's a table made just for drawing? That happens? You know, it was like one of those moments. And I used to dr-- I wanted to be a costume designer, so I used to draw dresses and fashion all the time on that table. And I had a whole setup. But I just remember just being this little kid who had my own little like, workspace and, and it was just for me to draw. And I was like, wow, there's a, there's... you could do this. Like, this is not a like day, you know, day drawing at home. This like, you could really do this as a, like, as an adult. So yeah, I was maybe like 11 and it was Carla from Fresh Bread Church. <laughter> Savo: That's awesome. So, you began this at age 11 and did you carry this through to your high school? Because I know you attended UC [University of California] Riverside and earned your Bachelor's in art history. Poellnitz: Yeah, I did. You know, like I was a kid that always made my own. Like I made my own. I designed dresses. I made my own prom dress. I sewed it, I wore it. I was heavily into -- It was the nineties in high school. And so, my parents, my dad retired, and then we moved outta Oceanside and moved to Vista for my high school years. And... it was hip-hop era, so I was like into dance and music. So that was all part of art and expression. But I remember wanting to be in the art clubs and I was just like, I can't if that, if art club's about realism and like drawing like things perfectly, I don't have time for that. That's real. I was just like, I don't even, I'm not even curious to learn that. I don't wanna do that. Cause that's what art club was defined as in high school for me. Savo: So would you say that your engagement was more self-disciplined? It was more geared towards how you wanted to engage with it, or more or less, how you could find avenues to apply it? Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 1 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Poellnitz: Um, it was more intentional for me. You know, I like fashion, so I drew. I drew dresses and I designed a dress and I sewed a dress and I wore it. It was just, it was all intentional. It was like just being, it was an action, it was a language for me. It was... it was a skill, you know, I just thought very creatively all the time. Even when I was learning economics, I was thinking about it creatively so it can make sense for me. I think they say that artists are like divergent thinkers, you know? We always find or create and build and make an alternative solution to solve a problem in art. So that's kind of like that, that's a habit. Um, yeah, ‘cause in, in high school, I used to go dancing. I used to go to like, this is corny as hell: I used to skip school and go to the Soul Train and dance in Soul Train in High School. I was just expressive. It was a very creative, like moment as a kid for me being in high school in the nineties, like hip hop was like jazzy like baggy and like there was more Black designers like Dubbo jeans and FUBU and all that stuff came out. So it was kinda like a Renaissance era, even though I lived in, in a little North County and, you know, Blacks were a smaller percent of the community. There's like, that culture was just present when I was in high school. So me not wanting-- Me not wanting to join like the art club for high school and draw something perfectly was just like, eh, I can have fun. That feels like studying for economics. I don't wanna do that right now. I wanna enjoy creativity right now. I don't wanna study it. I was not in that mood. It was just a part of my life, you know? So... and then I used to go to LA every summer when I was in high school to get away from North County and stay with my cousins who worked at movie theaters. And that's when I was exposed to like museums and galleries and, you know, and I took a class at Santa Monica College and that's when I learned like, oh snap, you can learn art history? This is more interesting than like actually drawing the horse, you know? Um, I just learned that art had intentions all the time. Like I was, I was also like poor, you know? And I'm a, I come from a Black family, so to venture off into art, it's just like: you gotta make sure it makes money! My uncle in LA is like, what are you getting a degree in? Are you gonna be able to teach with that? I'm just like, hmm, I don't know, you know, and, but I enjoy it and I excelled at it. And like, I had a teacher, I took like Japanese art history at Santa Monica College, and I was just blown away by the history, like the political history, the social impact, just like everything that you see in art, like how it's a reflection of like moments of history or just moments of inequity. I thought that was very interesting how artists could use that as a language to communicate, to organize, to protest, to be expressive of what they don't like in society. So yeah, I loved art history and that was like perfect for me. Cause when I think about it, I was into dance and music, hiphop culture because it felt liberating. I designed and made my own prom dress because, you know, it gave me ownership. And those are like human right feelings. Savo: And speaking to that, about the ownership and the intentionality, your decision to do art history as a degree and as a major, was that a choice that you made? Was that a choice that you had made from Santa Monica to UC Riverside? Poellnitz: Mm-hmm Savo: OK- Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 2 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Poellnitz: It was intentional. Yeah. So I, when I was at Santa Monica, it was cool. I had a lot of friends and they were like all into politics. I saw Amy Goodman when I went to Santa Monica College. And so I had a lot of friends who were into like, the political and social justice part of education. And I was like, I wanna do art history. <laughs> I like it. I like pictures, I like reading-- images, I love that. I love telling, retelling those stories or using it as a form of communication. But I was like, I think I wanna-- I remember telling myself in our junior college, I wanted to have a gallery space. It was intentional. And I applied to all the schools that had the double major art history and art administrative 'cause I wanted to learn the business side and the admin part. I didn't know what I was gonna do. I didn't know I was gonna get the gallery, but I was like, “Hey, if I wanna work in a gallery, I need to have these skills or just to better understand it.” ‘Cause I have to justify going to school for art history, not just to my family but to myself. Savo: And so you mentioned that you wanted this applicability, you know to translate the skills that you learned in your degree to, to real life and to getting a job. Poellnitz: Yeah to a job--. Savo: Could you tell me a little broadly about your experience with that community engagement and, and political activism and how that helped formulate what is now, you know, the Hill Street Country Club because it's a great gallery in Oceanside and you don't really think about Oceanside being, uh, very cultural. At least you know, the North County, South Bay, in terms of San Diego County in general. But how did that come about? Poellnitz: Um, well I finished school, lived in L.A. for quite a bit. Played assistant nanny manager, like these jobs separate from what I wanted to go to school for because I was living in L.A and I had to learn how to multitask. And I took on like a lot of assistant jobs and one day I was just like, I was working for lie celebrities and like producers and stuff and you know, I saw how things were operating behind the scene creatively for money. And then I also understood the realities of like creating for me and the possibilities. And so, you know, I always kept a job and one day I decided, like me, my husband, we split [up] and me and my little kid, we moved back to North County and I still had my L.A job. So, I was still commuting like three to four times a week from Vista to L.A for my job. Cause they paid me well. But I decided to start volunteering at the Oceanside Museum of Art and their education department, but they didn't have one yet. So, I ended up volunteering with the proprietors. I learned about installation at Oceanside Museum of Art and I was still, I still had my like feet in two different worlds. I was still in the L.A world, but also in my hometown world. I did work at Patricia Korea Gallery in Santa Monica, and that was a very eye-opening experience at the<inaudible>was in college. Just, she was like the only woman of color, like gallery owner. And she only represented brown artists at the time, which was very <inaudible> in Santa Monica. Well, but inequity in like the gallery world when I was in college with that job, I would apply to like the Getty and all types of museums when I lived in L.A. with my friends. But my friends would always get the job even though I had a better CV than them. You know you just accept it. And so I just went back to like doing assistant work and then I decided, I was like, you know what, like I'm gonna lean a little heavy. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 3 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Like now that I'm back in Vista, I'm gonna lean in a little bit more in North County and invest more of my time there. And so that's when I started volunteering at OMA [Oceanside Museum of Art]. Then I learned about the infrastructure of the museum world because, you know, I always wanted to work in a museum. I always thought museums were an amazing place to tell stories and educate. I never knew about the dark side of museums, you know, like how they get art and how they flip art and also like the politics of like hierarchy and institutions, you know, I learned-- I didn't know about that in school. No one ever talked about that in school. We only talked about art history. But once I started volunteering and then turned into a paid position at Oceanside Museum of Art, I learned about institutions really quickly, and I also learned not just about art institutions, but I also learned about like civic engagement and city planning because, I still had my, my foot in L.A so I was used to going to galleries and museums and seeing public art, having friends who got paid as full-time artists or had very creative jobs. I know what's possible. And so, you know, being back home, I just like, “okay, why don't we have public art again." And then I had to like learn beyond what school taught me through experiences. Like, oh, public art is political and it's not, political is a message, it's political because you have to politically know how to create a system so that there can be public arts, right? At the time OMA, no one knew Oceanside Museum of Art exists. You know, 12 years ago no one knew. I didn't even know. I like googled and like looked for art spaces and I somehow, and only because I was intentionally looking for art space in North County, close to home, I found it. But it wasn't like it was vibrant and it was attracting people like me and they should be attracting people like me for living in LA and loving art. I didn't know it exists out of Google art spaces in North County. And that's how Oceanside using a popped up. And I noticed that they didn't have an education department. They had Julia Fister who was volunteering for the education department that she created as a volunteer because she had a big grant with Target to make sure every fifth grader goes to the museum. But she didn't have a office space or studio room for education. It was like she just came and sat at a table and made it happen and fifth graders came. And me and my business partner, Margaret Hernandez, we just decided, you know, we were both in education and we did all the docent tours with the fifth graders and the, and the workshops with them. And we just like had a lot of community conversations with young people, people in middle school, so you learned about their like starting point to art, who in the, in the classroom who visit[ed] that day, who had more access to art than others. Who had materials, who been to museum. You know, you learn so much about the demographics and like, I'm sorry but the demographics were pretty like astounding when you see majority of the Brown/Black kids saying this is their first time. You know. Or you have students ask you if they could take home some of the like, crayons or pastels at home so they can keep drawing. You're just like, dang, kids don't have like crayons? Like how do you not have crayons? You know it-- Or kids asking like, or the one kid who's just like, who knows about art but like, how do artists even make money? Like kids would ask those questions all the time. How do artists even make money? Like what do art, what can artists do? You know? And those were conversations for me ’cause I was always intentional. I was just like artists designed your shirt, the artist probably designed like a machine that's in the hospital that you are using, artists design buildings. I'm like, art is involved in Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 4 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 literally your whole life. You just don't know it. And you probably could have more, but you just don't know it. Right? And so I just started asking questions about how do we get more murals? How do we get public art? How do we have art walk? And I learned that I had to like volunteer with like Main Street, like a commerce type of org, who had a relationship with the city to get extra funding for projects for the city. I had to learn about that dynamic. I learned about putting things on the docket. Like I learned how art was, wasn't just like creative, but it was also political and it was also like [it] required you to engage in the system to understand how to create public art opportunities. You know, it's just, we didn't, Oceanside didn't have an infrastructure for art. Like we've made a lot of improvement, but we didn't have an infrastructure, we had an arts commission, but it was it was in silo and they weren't funding anything and they were just meeting each other, talking about projects around town, you know? The museum wasn't engaged at the time. It was, it was treated more like a private gallery space than a public space. And it was, ‘cause you know, Oceanside Museum of Art is not owned by the city. It's owned by a group of retirees, you know, and there's a lot there. There's also the retirement culture that you have to deal with. Like when we started Hill Street, we were very engaged with our friends and our family and community members. And we worked with people who couldn't get a space or an exhibition. We worked with those artists and they brought their family and friends. Like, it was a gathering opportunity for people. It made sense. Savo: And how were you able to attract these different artists? Were these artists specifically located in Oceanside or were they spread out through across San Diego County? Poellnitz: No it started in Oceanside. It was our friends first. We grew like a concentric circle, if that makes any sense. It was, um, we fit Hill Street like artist, personal, communal, universal. And like this, if I think about how we grew as a concentric circle, it was very personal for me, Marj, to begin Hill Street Country Club because the museum was rejecting all our ideas and they were not being cool or like easily invested in education. They made it very hard for Oceanside Museum of Art to create an education department at the time. And so in support of an education department, because we, you know, we did those docents and we listened to young people. So I'm like, “you need an education department. It's necessary.” We supported Julia and her vision to make an education department for the museum. And we tried to throw our first fundraiser for that vision of hers. And the museum would say no to us. Like, we're like, “Hey, can we do a fundraiser for the education department?" And they're like, no. And then we're asked like, “Can we borrow some chairs and tables for a fundraiser?” “Uh, not right now. No.” And basically like we knew we need an education department like, Oceanside, if you're gonna have Oceanside Museum of Art and you're taking up the city's name and you're having fifth graders come in and you're getting grant money, you need to have an education department, right? And that's just common sense to us. And so we told all our friends the idea of having a fundraiser for the Oceanside Museum of Arts Education Department to support Julia. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 5 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 And one day I was like driving home to dinner to meet Margaret and I saw that the Link-Soul building light was on and they were having a gallery show. And I walked in there and I was just like, this is the art space? And Jeff, who is the co-owner of Link-Soul was just like, yeah. And I was like, this is interesting. I was just so shocked to see a gallery that had a show. And the next day I went over there and met Jeff, someone got him, and I introduced myself and I pitched our fundraiser idea. He, like, he said yes to me, to like using this space for free. And so that was our first event that we organized, and it was called “Open to the Public” and it was about, you know, the need for art education. It was a fundraiser for OMA. And so, we just asked all our friends who were artists in North County and then like people who I went to school with, ‘cause I was taking classes at Miracosta for fun, for art and asking teachers to support it. We had a big turnout, and we were able to donate to the education department and purchase art materials and bags for every fifth grader of Oceanside for that year that visited the museum on that program. So that was like the first time where we were just like, wait, this was successful. People are thirsty. Like it's not just us who want [to] have more like community opportunities, you know, with art. So like I said, it's like we grew a concentric circle because we started off very, it was very personal for us to do that. And then once we had our first event, we understood the like community purpose. Like, oh this is not just us, this is a community issue too. We want, we want more opportunities to do stuff like this and we don't have it. It was like, “I want more of this. Like how do we, how do we keep doing this?” And so me, Margaret, just because we couldn't afford our own space and I still working back and forth in L.A, we just did pop-up art shows for like two solid years all over Oceanside. And then we went to community art events or like art events in San Diego because they had more of a presence of art for us back then, ‘cause we weren't really doing much as a city. So, we would go to events and openings in San Diego all the time. I don't know, it was this became very like, personal and communal. And then most of our artists are like working class, queer, young, old, um, more vulnerable, you know, and to like, to all kinds of things. And so, like most of them never had an opportunity to have an exhibition. They like paint it for themselves or put their art in a store, but no one's ever invited them to do an exhibition. And we would just invite artists for exhibition. But it was a curated experience, you know, and a lot of it was just, we choose artists that, that we shared messages with. I don't know, it just became a very organic growth. Savo: This is excellent to learn about. ‘Cause I didn't know that there's so much underneath, in terms of the layering, in terms of structuring, in terms of networking that's involved. Could you just clarify briefly who exactly Jeff and Julia are in relation to the Hill Street Country Club? Poellnitz: So Julia Fister at the time was the education director at the Oceanside Museum of Art. And she was one of my- me and Margaret's mentor. She now owns Studio Ace in Oceanside where it's focused on youth and like art education, which is really cool cause she's in the valley. Very much needed over there. And then Jeff, Jeff Cunningham is a artist but is the creative director for Link -Soul, which is a golf apparel company. Their design team is based in downtown San Diego. And we share, we co-op a space with them. That's where we have our gallery. And Jeff Cunningham is a phenomenal artist. Like I Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 6 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 curated him for a show for Oceanside Museum of Art. And our friendship, just like it grew from like me being a curator and an artist and him being an artist and us really like exchanging ideas about social impact and how do we create an art space that's different, that's more authentic and doesn't have all these pressures to over-perform, be productive. And so like, it's natural. It's interesting ‘cause he said yes to us having our first art show at his space and then he ended up giving us this space for Hill Street. Savo: That's awesome. And since Hill Street has been open and been around in the community, how has the gallery become that space where it's not just the ideas or expressions that are being presented, but how has that space become a platform really, sorry... How has that space become a platform for activism? Because, you know, you noted in a 2020 interview with KPBS that art is a functioning tool that should transition off the canvas. Poellnitz: Hmm-hmm. Savo: How has Hill Street Country Club played in that part? Poellnitz: You know, it's so funny cause every time I get asked like, “oh are you an artist too?” Like,” yeah, I'm an artist, I make work, but I don't make it anymore.” I was like, I make, I build art, you know, I can build stuff. But right now, my art is Hill Street Country Club, and you know, it's, it goes back to college and me like learning about all like the social impact and inequities in the world through art history. It goes back to that. And it goes back to like, you know, artists are some of the most vulnerable people because first of all, you're not respected with pay whatsoever, ’cause you have to remember like, I knew I had to get paid to do this or I shouldn’t be doing it. I should be like a teacher or an engineer or a therapist. Like, you went to school for art and people need to get paid for that. So we live, we live in North County where there's, we were spending like 10 cents per residence on art funding while like San Diego at the time was spending ten dollars. So, and then also trying to convince older peers in the art community that they had to pay for admin stuff that we organized. And then thinking that everyone had time to volunteer because at the end of the day, we had a large retirement class that was in charge of the art community in Oceanside and Vista. You know, they didn't see the value of paying younger people to help them with the arts, you know, there's uh cultural differences. And that being said, you know, to get paid is not just like, to get paid is the equity issue, right? And then not only to get, you know, to get paid is the equity issue. And if you're like Black and people don't even take you that, if you look at the museum stats and gallery stats for like, artists and like people who make it, you already know. You're like, you're dealing with so many microaggressions, you're dealing with some unresolved supremacy issues. Like I always tell folks like, hey, check this out. Like, um, it's okay if you're racist, I get it. You're not me. You don't have these experiences and you have to unlearn and I'm gonna give you grace to unlearn, but I'm always gonna speak up for what I-- what you Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 7 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 did. And I'm gonna not call you out, but I'm just gonna call you in and say like, “hey you know what you did was kind of racist could you not do that?” And I learned that was always like a threat to people when I was honest and like gave them grace at the same time. And I learned in the art community that they're not ready for those conversations at all. Or like, just to like unlearn and do better. So, but because I have ownership of my space and I don't work for anyone and I don't have a board that disagrees with my politics, I have a lot more autonomy than a lot of my artist friends or my art admins who work in museums and high-end gallery spaces. And so I get to embrace artists that are political, who are in the streets, who are organizing, who are building different collectives or opportunities for relief or whatever they believe in. I have a beautiful space. I also share my autonomy with them and I support their work. And because I believe in equity too. Cause I'm trying to get paid, I'm dealing with microaggressions. This is personal. Like what, what affects you is affecting me. And also, I'm like, I just don't like people being in pain. I'm an empathetic person. I, I don't know, I'm pretty radical politically, so I have to-- if I have my own autonomy, I'm gonna use it. I'm not gonna shy away from that. And the artists that I admire were doing that. It went that I was learning art history. They were telling a story, they was telling us how wrong this was and that was. Like, they're pointing out problems and they're doing it in the nuances of art. And I think it's very important for artists to tell those stories so people can gather and discuss and find solutions or to just build creative- what is it critical mass? No, I think it's critical mass is like valuable, once you learn it's not just yourself. It's like a Power in Numbers game. Savo: Would you say that speaking to it's a power in numbers game, do you think that that has changed your perspective on the, the personal communal and universal experience that Hill Street Country Club offers? Because obviously since it's opened, now since the pandemic 2020, do you think that it's become a situation where art more than ever needs to be more expressionist or more, um, as you say, it has to be more, you know--? Poellnitz: Yeah,- Savo: It has to be more- Poellnitz: It should be. It should be. You know I was just talking to my colleague Astrid Gonzalez, she is one of the Hill Street colleagues. She does all our audio-visual stuff. And she was reflecting the other day and she was like, “we really never stopped working during the pandemic.” I was like, we didn't, we couldn't afford to. We're vulnerable. We don't have board members with money. We don’t have-- like the reason why we can do all that we do is because we have people aligned with our principals who agree with us and who are not scared support what we're doing. But at the same time, to get paid in this art world, you gotta have some like, dirty person on your board. That's just reality. Like, you gotta think Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 8 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 money. And it's, that's just how it works. It's an institution. Like every institution in America has flaws, right? And during the pandemic, we stayed open. We were very creative of finding creative ways to stay open and accessible to our audience and to our artists. Cause a lot of my artists during the pandemic were dealing with poverty, food, needed food, like, mental health. The pandemic was messing people up in the first like two years. And a lot of my artists were affected by that. I worked with a lot of Brown and Queer and old artists, you know, and in this economy, they were suffering. And so, I had to figure out how to be a safe space and use my space for opportunities for people to get access to food or help folks get access to mental health services or even a distraction like coming, making art. I had to stay open for two and a half years during the pandemic, while a lot of big museums were closing and doing bare minimum because they didn't wanna get Covid. So, I don't know, my space has always evolved and adapt, because it has to. Savo: Speaking to- Poellnitz: Right now—Go ahead- Savo: Oh no, go ahead. Poellnitz: I forgot what I was going to say, go ahead. Savo: Speaking to the space having evolved, you mentioned that Hill Street became a space that allowed for those economic hardships of the pandemic, to kind of be alleviated for your artists. Could you speak about the political upheaval? Because we all lived through 2020 and we all know how painful it was during April, May, April through June of 2020. How did that come about? How was Hill Street a space for comfort, a space for expression? Poellnitz: Yeah, that was interesting. Cause like I'm the only like Black gallery owner in San Diego. And I've been doing this for so long that I, I belong to extended part of the San Diego art community that a lot of folks don't see in North County. Like I know a lot of people in museums and galleries and stuff like that. And I know a lot of people in City government and Federal government. And so, you know, during that time it was just like, this is when you make art. This is when you talk about these issues and you use art as a language and as a tool to have these community conversations. But also, this was also opportunity for us to do mutual aid. We went into care mode, like how do we care more about people? Like how do we care back? Like how do we take care of each other? Because during that time we know who's not taking care of us, we know who doesn't protect us. And it was more like being available to protect and provide care. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 9 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 I kind of miss those days. Those were the days where we were talking about liberation and how to use resources to create safe, safer communities. We were talking about solutions for the first time out loud as a public. We were sharing empathy with each other. I thought it was a beautiful opportunity for us to build something new. But it was also beautiful to see that we could be in solidarity. I had people who knew me in the business community of Oceanside, but never went to our events. Always knew what I was doing if I went into their store or their restaurant or coffee shop or whatever. And that was the first time a lot of those folks came out and donated to us. <laughs> You know, like checked on us. And I was like, “Wow, this is the first-time people cared about what we are doing over here. Like, this is interesting.” And I think there was a fear for a lot of folks like “I hope this isn't discourage her.” Or maybe I'm just thinking that in my head, I don't know. But I did see a lot of people come out the woodworks who started supporting us. And it gave us funding to create more programming and we kept going. So, I don't know. I was just adapting. I think that's what you do when you're in survival mode all the time. Savo: And since the pandemic, obviously the adapting to the circumstance and situation, have there been any local projects or exhibits that you've, partaken in or helped organize that reflect those changing structures or those change in activism? Cause you mentioned a lot about talking about solutions and you mentioned how there's this real need for concern for one another, this care for one another. Has there been any of these projects that reflect that? Poellnitz: Yeah so we got really involved during the pandemic. We created like a mental health like group therapy program for young middle school kids, “The Social,” and it was just like, we had a license. We have a licensed therapist, one of our artists, and it's like a group therapy through art, but also peer on peer because a lot of young folks were isolated from each other during the pandemic. And they're still coping with, you know the environment they had to live in, to stay away from everyone and not getting us sick to die. That's kind of traumatic. And then we're asking them to like, go back to normal real quick so we can jumpstart our economy. So we created a program, “The Social,” with the therapist for young people. And now we're gonna be part of the Oceanside Unified School District programming for summer, fall, and winter, I mean summer, fall and spring now. So we're now like, we created a program that's gonna be in the school system that provides mental healthcare for young people who need it the most. And then we just recently had an exhibition with <inaudible> Roca Gonzalez, who lives in Oceanside, who's from Puerto Rico. And they're working about all these social issues and we're coming together and recognizing we are a product of gentrification and colonialism. We live through it every single day. Like we have all this architectural vernacular that reminds us that we're all living through this. It's not just Puerto Rico, you know, it's everywhere. We're all surviving. I've been able to sit on a lot of committees and boards and be part of more equitable decision making for artists that I'm excited about that's gonna be coming out soon with the city of San Diego, helping a lot of like artists get access to money. That was like one thing that I did during the pandemic, was I did sign up on committees and boards because I'm just like, “You guys are making this process way Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 10 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 too difficult for people who have to work full-time jobs and take care of family.” Not everyone's out here just being an artist on retirement mode and can fill out all these questions and type all these like, letters of intent. You gotta make this more equitable-like process for like poor people with very limited time, you know? So it was part of a San Diego artist project that raised like $150K for artists in San Diego. And we made the process so easy that a lot more like trans and BIPOC artists actually applied and received funding to be a artist over the pandemic. That was amazing. I mean once I decided I was committed to equity and inclusion for myself, everything I do affects everyone. As a Black woman, it just does naturally, like we're-- The stats prove it. If you improve my life or if you improve my life in your surrounding, you benefit from it. Like literally, like if Dinah says she wants more vacation days, I work too much and because I, and I don't normally give vacation day. Oh my God, imagine if you give it to me, you're gonna have to give it to my coworker. Not everything I want, everything I need because equity benefits everyone. So I understand a lot of my personal experience or communal experiences and has universal like means that needs <inaudible>. Savo: And I was just curious, because we were speaking about these different programs and different committees that were happening during the pandemic. Before we jump back to the equity portion that I'm really fascinated to know more about, how were these committees and how were these programs organized? Were they all organized remotely? Were these children or these group therapy sessions that you mentioned, where were they held remotely or was there a creative space for that? Poellnitz: We did it at the gallery space every Saturday. Every Saturday. And our therapist had a baby. So, they're coming, they're gonna go back in the summer. They're gonna start back in the summer and we're gonna be at Jefferson Middle School. Last year we had a four-week social camp with them, with community artists and the therapists as a camp. And it was four weeks of campers and we had four cohorts of students and we're returning to that program in the summer. And we'll be returning with like regular art programming with Oceanside Unified School District on top of providing the Saturday space for the students again for group therapy. Savo: And I'm also curious to know like what kind of activities were these students engaged in when it came to the group therapy sessions? Because obviously this is a period where, it's a lot of, where social distancing was a very key thing and masking was also very important. How are these exercises or how are these sessions organized? What were these specific activities? Poellnitz: Well, it's so interesting ‘cause we kept over going through the whole pandemic. We, Hill Street changed its whole operation system to be more appointment-based. And we created capacities. We were very highly sensitive about Covid, like people had to wear masks all the time. We provided, Dr. Bronner’s used to donate tons of like hand sanitizer. Like we used to give like little packets out to people who came visit the gallery space. If anyone wanted to see an exhibit, they make an appointment. They would have the space to themselves for 20 minutes to visit the exhibit. And we wouldn't be in the space with them. We'll be like upstairs above where, you know, the distance, like it basically were by themselves. And then with “The Social,” “The Social” was like every Saturday. We had a capacity, I believe of like eight students at a time. And so, we have the space for people to spread out. And then Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 11 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 everyone had materials. I mean, it was really easy to manage. I think when people care for each other and they care that they have a safe space, people make sure they don't show up sick. People made sure to wash their hands. People made sure to keep their masks on. We did have a lot of workshops on Zoom. We had a lot of artist’s talks on Zoom. We had like – what is it called? We had AR [augmented reality] gallery exhibitions. So if you couldn't see the work in person, we recreate gallery space online, and people can navigate and look at art online as if it was in a gallery space. Savo: That’s really interesting-- Poellnitz: Yeah, we did a mobile art workshop. We got a grant right before the pandemic hit and we were supposed to have all this programming in every community center in Oceanside, but it was Covid and so we had to adapt, and 'cause they already gave us the money for it. So, we created a mobile art kit and like a lunch bag and it was like all the materials to like the perfect measurement and quantity that you needed for that project. We had our exhibition artists create a project and give us a list of materials for that project. And we used to do like a whole visual, like YouTube recording of how to create the piece. And then we did like a live Zoom and Instagram workshop, but anyone with a library card was getting mailed a mobile art workshop kit from us. Yeah so, we did a lot of organizing through the pandemic to stay open. It wasn't just simply being open, like we had to reorganize like our operations. We created an appointment system, we created more QR codes for people instead of like, there was no reason for anyone to touch anything in this space. People were able to pull out their phones and QR code and read like the show statement. And then we had Zoom workshops and people will get their MOD kits and you know, we did a lot of cool things on Zoom. It was fun. I don't know, you just learn how to care for people! Savo: What do you think was the— <Poellnitz and Savo talking over each other> I’m sorry. Poellnitz: Go ahead, no you go ahead. Savo: What do you think was the reception towards all these different restructuring and different outreach? Were people positive? Poellnitz: People were positive. People were very positive. And not only just positive, but our audience grew. We were more accessible to people outside of Oceanside. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 12 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Savo: Do you think that broadened the scope of Hill Street? Do you think it helped? Do you think it helps sort of bring a lot of those ideas and those concepts from the North County down to the South Bay? Poellnitz: Oh for sure. When I moved to Normal Heights a year and a half ago and people were like, “oh, you're here now. I'm like, yes.” And then just we love everything that you're, like, people from the arts commission knows what we're doing. Like I see a lot of gallery spaces and museums who are working with artists I worked with now. Worked with like five years ago, two years ago. I see the influence of our work on visuals. I see a lot of art spaces in San Diego, like institutions with bigger budgets, now creating visuals about their space. And I know we influenced people over the pandemic. They tell me and sometimes their programs look like it. It's wild. And it's like, wow. We did a lot over the pandemic while they sat still and they just watched us. Jeff always tell me, he's like, “you can't be mad if people are copying. Isn't that what you want?” I was like, “Oh yeah, that's how that works, huh?” Like, you influence people and they do the things you want them to do. Like have more like Queer folks or Black people or do more of this type of art. Like, oh they are listening, that is an impact. I didn't think about it like that. And he's like, “Yeah you just keep doing what you're doing. If they wanna do what you're doing in, see how far you can teach them, see how far they're willing to go.” And you know, that's, that's been like the best advice I've ever had doing this work. Because it's true. When you have autonomy and you could do whatever you want or say whatever you want, or stand by what you believe in, you have a bigger impact than the person who's quiet and not doing anything ‘cause they're scared. Savo: And speaking to that, that wanting to take initiative and be expressive. How does that coincide with some of the challenges that you were mentioning earlier about equity and inclusion? How do those two sort of intertwine with one another? Poellnitz: Dude, it's because it hurts. Because a lot of like organizations, a lot of people who do fund the arts are scared. They just scared of change. People are scared of change. And so there's always gonna be resistance. There's always gonna be the folks with resources who can like, jump like pounce on your idea. And because they have money, they can do it sooner and faster and get more visibility. That's gonna happen. It is exhausting. It wears you down, it discourages. Makes it harder for you to get access to grants or, or donors. But then at the same time, I've just been thinking about this a lot lately. Cause you know, Hill Street, we're at a point where I'm kind of exhausted, but at the same time I know why I'm exhausted and I gotta do things differently and I have to be a little bit more strategic now, like where I wanna go because I notice that a lot of people are watching us. And then people have a lot of expectations for us. And there's also a lot of opportunities for us in the position that we're in because of the work that we've done over the last ten years, you know? And especially the work that got highlighted during the George Floyd protest era. So, like I'm hyper aware and I'm being a little bit more wise about who I partner with. I'm being a little bit more wise on how often I say no because I was a person that never said no before. And Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 13 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 because I never said no, I got burnt out and not paid a lot. And I'm learning that me as a Black woman, my rest is very important, but it's also important that I have equity so I can get paid to do this work. So, I've just been thinking about how to slow down and sometimes less is more like I don't have to be over the place. I just need to be effective where I have intentions. So, it's like pulling back to that personal space has been going on with us lately. Like this being more local, bringing it all in, focusing on what we're strong at, getting into contract with the Oceanside Unified School District. Like that's a healthy source of funding for us. Instead of chasing donors who don't share our principles, I think artists and art organizers need to ask themselves like “Why are you here? What vision do you have? What community you belong to? What are your principles?” I think those are questions that anyone in the arts needs to ask themselves. Just be honest with yourself and if you could be honest with yourself, you should always know the choices that you're making. For me, I realize I wanna be my own institution and there's gonna be some hardship ‘cause I won't be conforming to a lot of institutional like practices. I will be creating new practices. I'm highly aware of the up and down of this art world for me. For me. And I'm honest with myself. So it's easier for me to commit, but because I'm honest with myself, I create ways that can sustain me. Like, I do more like art consulting jobs. I collaborate more with non-art, institutional spaces, you know? I work a lot more with community members who are in the political scene. So I understand like the fluidity of art. And if you're heavily relying on the same funders that fund the problem, yeah I would have concerns for the equity. But if you are creative and you know your worth and you are honest with yourself about why you're here, you always can find a solution. And because that's what's worked for me. Savo: And speaking to equity and how Hill Street has evolved over the past ten years, what do you think are some of the things that you personally wanna see for the Hill Street Club? You mentioned that you prefer more local engagement. You prefer being with individuals that are more like-minded in terms of art expression, in terms of inclusion. What are some of the hopes that you have for Hill Street moving forward? Poellnitz: I would love to have a community school. I want a community school. I worked for a nonprofit in City Heights and we worked with community schools that worked with juvies. They call them JCCS like Juvenile and Correction Community Schools. And they're like directly tied to the unified school district and the court system. At one point when I was heavily involved in politics, I was working with a former city council member in hopes of becoming like a divergent program for youth in the arts. So like, if a kid got arrested for the first time, instead of like putting them on probation and sending them to jail, you send them to like a diversion program. And the city of Carlsbad Police Department is the only police department in San Diego County that has an actual diversion program for youth. And so, you know, you get to be an organization as a choice for, for young folks and teach 'em all the skills, like how to create programming, how to run programming, how to make art. It's like a six-month commitment. I wanna do something more like that. I wanna have a community school. I wanna teach art the way that I experience art, the way that artists experiencing art. I wanna create a new institutional space for art Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 14 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 practice. I don't know, I just really wanna grow as a bigger institution, as a choice, as an alternative choice to other places. Savo: And obviously you've given a lot of thought to the idea of this community school and obviously diversion programs as well, such as Carlsbad's. Do you see potentially a branching out of Hill Street? Moving forward within not just North County, but also San Diego County as a whole? Do you see elements of what you've been able to create and to adapt with? Do you see any of that being replicated any elsewhere in the County? Poellnitz: Um, not yet, but we partner with a lot of folks in San Diego so we are very unique because we have to adapt. One thing you learn about our institutions, old ones, they can't adapt. So, when they can't adapt, they move slow. They struggle with adapting. And one thing about us, because we don't, we don't follow institutional like, uh wisdom. A lot of us are taking in diverse knowledge from each other, practicing being inclusive. And once you do that as an action, you can make decisions a lot sooner than later. And so we've been doing a lot of like partnerships and pop-ups with a lot of orgs in San Diego. I just want a community school. I want a community school. I want studio spaces for artists. I would like to have a choice for young people to learn about art and not just learn about art but have creative access to like a space where they can learn about the world and express themselves. Like I would like to have a community school. I have no aspirations to be all over San Diego County. That sounds like a lot of work. <laughs> Savo: Oh, absolutely <laughs> Poellnitz: And I worked with a lot of people in San Diego County. I love you San Diego, but North County is so special. Like us North County people, we are so innovative 'cause we've had so little. And when we learn something new, we master it because we don't have all the museums in galleries and big budgets that San Diego has or L.A has. So we are very mom and pop and DIY in North County and we support each other. And so, I don't know, that's the civic identity for me. You know, that's part of my civic identity. Savo: And speaking to this, sort of bring it all back in identity, the personal, the communal, the universal that Hill Street represents. Do you think that a community school would be a perfect foster for that? And I'm just curious about the age groups. Something I'm actually quite interested about, would this be open to not just middle schools, the middle school age range that Oceanside education part has worked with, but would you extend that? Would you put a limited K through 12 per example? Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 15 2023-04-24 �DINAH POELLNITZ Transcript, Interview 2023/04/05 Poellnitz: I don't know. I don’t know. That’s a lot of years. <laughs> Savo: It's a lot of funding. Poellnitz: It's a lot of funding. I know that the folk at Link-Soul, they run the Goat Hill Golf course in Oceanside and it's already been promised to us that we will build some type of like, institution space for a community school one day. So, we're all dreaming like what we wanted to have. Savo: That's awesome. And just before we wrap up our interview here today, was there anything that we had previously discussed or discussed throughout the interview that you wanted a little bit more emphasis on or anything that you wanted to touch base with before we end today? Poellnitz: I don't think so. You're fine. Savo: Awesome. Again, thank you so much for this interview. It was really informative, and I think it's great to learn about how art has really grown in North County. Because I'm from the South Bay, so I wouldn't know too much. But I think this was a great experience and I thank you a lot for that. Poellnitz: Oh, thank you, I appreciate that. Transcribed by Riccardo V. Savo 16 2023-04-24 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Poellnitz, Dinah. Interview transcript. April 5, 2023. Description An account of the resource Transcript of oral History Interview of Dinah Poellnitz on April 5, 2023. Interview discusses Dinah Poellnitz’s community engagement within the city of Oceanside through art. In particular, the interview focuses on Poellnitz's involvement in the founding of the Hill Street Country Club art gallery in Oceanside, CA. Poellnitz discusses how to navigate through the art community as a Black woman, emphasizing the importance of equity and inclusion. Poellnitz also discusses operating her gallery during the pandemic, and future aspirations. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dinah Poellnitz Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Riccardo Savo Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2023-04-05 Subject The topic of the resource Art -- Study and teaching Art galleries -- nonprofit Artists, Black Community Engagement COVID-19 (Disease) and the arts COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020- Hill Street Country Club -- California -- Oceanside Women artists Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Los Angeles (Calif.) Oceanside (Calif.) San Diego (Calif.) Vista (Calif.) 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Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. Persons wishing to quote, publish, perform, reproduce, or otherwise make use of an item in the Library’s collections must assume all responsibility for identifying and satisfying any claimants of the copyright holder. The researcher assumes full responsibility for use of the material and agrees to hold harmless the University Library, and California State University, against all claims, demands, costs, and expenses incurred by copyright infringement or any other legal or regulatory cause of action arising from the use of the Library's materials. In assuming full responsibility for use of the material, the researcher also understands that the materials they examine may contain Social Security numbers, other personal identifiers, and/or sensitive material on potentially living and identifiable individuals (e.g., medical, evaluative, or personally invasive information). The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. Type The nature or genre of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-025 Activists and activism Art and artists Black experience Community history History Department internship Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Julia Friedman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Leea Pronovost OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PronovostLeea_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-08.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. Activism (LGBTQ) OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 5.4 Oral history of Leea Pronovost, April 8, 2022 SC027-18 1:16:52 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This oral history was made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. LGBTQ+ activism LGBTQ+ rights San Diego (Calif.) Springfield (Mass.) Transgender people -- Civil rights Activism (LGBTQ) Leea Pronovost Julia Friedman mp4 PronovostLeea_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-08.mp4 1:|14(8)|21(14)|30(2)|36(8)|44(3)|54(13)|62(11)|70(6)|77(4)|91(7)|98(1)|104(2)|112(2)|119(11)|127(11)|135(11)|144(1)|155(8)|167(12)|175(1)|181(10)|189(1)|194(8)|201(8)|210(5)|217(6)|227(8)|236(1)|244(11)|252(11)|261(10)|269(2)|276(6)|283(8)|291(14)|299(10)|308(2)|316(11)|324(12)|332(15)|340(3)|345(11)|353(10)|361(7)|367(6)|375(8)|383(1)|390(1)|398(11)|405(14)|417(7)|430(6)|437(7)|444(1)|451(3)|463(2)|473(9)|481(14)|490(11)|500(2)|512(6)|523(11)|534(15)|542(5)|549(13)|558(1)|568(10)|576(1)|582(13)|597(9)|604(6)|611(2)|616(17)|623(6)|631(7)|649(5) 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/b85338e1bff43294d1016cc0062ca02f.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and childhood Julia Friedman: Okay. Today is Friday, April eighth, 2022 at 10:02 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Leea Pronovost for the University Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Leea, thank you for being with me here today. Leea Pronovost: Oh, thank you for having me. Friedman: I would first like to start by asking when and where were you born? Pronovost: I was born in 1959, October second in Springfield, Massachusetts. Friedman: And can you please describe your childhood? Pronovost: (laughs) Well it wasn't exactly a very pleasant childhood, let's put it that way. One of my earliest memories was actually in 1963, I was four years old and at a Christmas party at my grandmother's house. And I saw my grandmother used to give us little money cards every Christmas--all of her grandchildren. And I noticed my name on an envelope my mother was holding. And I asked her what that word was in front of my name. My grandmother had written “Master.” And I didn't know that word--I didn't. So, she told me what it was, that it was a “Master” and what it stood for. And then I saw she had my little sister’s envelope in her hand and I asked her what was in front of my little sister’s name because of what's different than mine. And, uh, it was “Miss” and I asked her what that meant. And I said, I basically said, “There's something wrong here.” And I think, “I'm supposed to be more like the ‘Miss.’” (laughs) So after her explanation of which each one of those terms meant. As you can imagine that was 1963. So, (laughs) a whole different world. And my mother basically told me to shut up and never talk about it again. Which, you know, because we actually started getting into an argument about it in front of all my aunts and uncles and cousins. And so that's why she told me that. And honestly, I never did talk with her about it again. She actually died before I ever had a chance to, so. That's one of my earliest memories. After that it didn't get much better dealing with that issue. I mean, I was raised very strict Catholic. I was an alter boy. I, um, in my teen year, even, I spent a lot of time in a Jesuit monastery trying to pray that away if you will. And even thought about going into the seminary at one point and becoming a Catholic priest. But I didn't, I ended up joining the Navy. But that's (laughs) another story. So, the--and my father wasn't exactly the nicest of people. He was very much, as you can imagine, a bigoted person, against gays and people like me. I can remember being a kid and hearing about Christine Jorgensen [the first transgender woman in the United States to attain fame for receiving a sex reassignment surgery] and some of the remarks that my father talked to about when he referred to her and were--made me feel very terrible about myself because I knew that's how I felt. So, it wasn't an easy time, believe me. But that's pretty much my basic childhood. Leea Pronovost discusses her experience growing up in a conservative and homophobic household in Springfield, Massachusetts during the 1960s. childhood ; homophobia ; Massachusetts ; Springfield (Mass.) ; transgender ; transphobia 309 Time in the Navy Friedman: Well thank you for sharing that, Leea. I'm sorry that you had such a difficult time growing up. Pronovost: Well, it was a totally different world compared to what we have now. Being transgender wasn’t--I didn't even, I don't think that word even existed until, you know, the 1990s. At some point, I mean, people like me, they used to call them “transsexuals,” which nowadays a lot of the trans community considers that a derogatory term, so. And--but that's the way our society was back then. I mean, I can even tell you that in 1977, I joined the Navy, um, give you--for instance. And when I joined the Navy on my ASVAB, I scored in the top five percent in the nation and they gave me two strikes for going into bootcamp, one strike for coming out of bootcamp. And I was placed into, um, nuclear engineering program to be a nuclear engineer on a sub, and all my life, probably about 1965, I actually started cross dressing, borrowing my sister's clothes, because it made me feel better. But yet there was a certain amount of shame with that. So--but that continued on even into the Navy. And I can remember being on a leave of absence, going to a bar dressed up, and coming out of the bar and being discovered by my commanding officer who then proceeded to file charges against me for crossdressing. And I ended up going through a court-marshal. So, push came to shove, they didn't do what they call a Section 8 on me. What they did do was give me a personal hardship discharge, because they basically said they didn't want “my kind” there. So, but it was very nerve-wracking. I can remember thinking--and I was living in Massachusetts at the time. I'm like thinking throughout the entire court-marshal worst case scenario, they Section 8 me, classify me as, you know, “mentally disturbed,” because of my crossdressing. And if I had went back to Massachusetts with that on my discharge papers, they could have (laughs) at actually put me into a mental institution back then. They still had governmental-run mental institutions in Massachusetts then, and they were not a very pretty sight. And even with people like me, they would actually--and gay people--they would actually lobotomize them trying to “fix them,” so to speak. So, (laugh) it wasn't, it was a totally different world. And I can, you know, they appreciate all the things that, people like me and the whole, uh, gay movement, gay rights and people that fought for and the seventies and even into the eighties and are still fighting today. And I'm one of them. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: Because no matter how far we've come, there's still much further to go. So. Leea Pronovost discusses exploring her gender identity through cross-dressing, as well as her time in the Navy, beginning in 1977. Cross-dressing ; homophobia ; Massachusetts ; transgender ; transphobia ; United States. Navy 572 Coming out/ Turning towards activism Friedman: I would actually like to switch gears if that's okay and talk about your years in activism. You've been an activist within the transgender community for twelve years. When did you first decide to turn to activism? Pronovost: Well, after I felt--after I came out to everybody, um--let me explain. In 2006, I had a near death experience that actually--because as I told you, you know, from 1963 on--I knew something was different. 2006, I had a near death experience that caused me to look at what my life was about, who I am, why I survived. And I came to the realization that I had to do something about this. And I started my transition soon as I recovered from that, which was probably about a year after that. I was well enough to actually--I didn't start hormones at that time, but I started looking at herbal supplements that would change my body. And I didn't come out to everybody. My current ex-wife at the time, I did come out to her about changing. And she was okay with it as long as I didn’t tell anybody. She carried--being a Latin person, carried a certain stigmatization around who I was. So, um, but anyway, it took me a couple of years to get on hormones and there's even stories there (laughs). I was actually denied my hormones at one point in time by my therapist, which really--I didn't understand why. I understood that that was the laws. And then, you know, I've heard other stories of other going to support groups and talking to a therapist and learning how to come out to basically the world. And it troubled me how difficult it was. And that whole path of trying to-- knowing deep down inside (laughs) all my life, that something was different, just never realized what it was and because I grew up before internet. And so, it the only place I could find information was in a library. And I was too ashamed to go into a library and pull a book about transsexuals (laughs), you know? Especially with my Catholic upbringing. So, it was very difficult and there were many times that throughout my life that I actually tried to commit suicide because of that. Because I thought I was alone. I thought I different. I never knew there was people like me. And then finding all those hurdles that I had to jump through. And then at the same time, you know, I started discovering that the state that I live in, Massachusetts, didn't even have any protections for transgender people. And if I tried to rent an apartment or buy a house, or, you know, get a job as a trans person, people could actually say “No,” because I was transgender. So, these things really disturbed me down to my core because, you know, it is who I am. It is my identity. So, that's what really got me to become more active and become an advocate and activist for the community because I wanted to make it better for the next people. I want to make it better for the next generation, so they don't have to struggle like I did. Not knowing who they were. I wanted to give the trans community that visibility so that they have role models that can even, you know, that they can idolize basically, and say, “I want be like that person.” Because as a youth, you know, I never had that. We, I mean, if you look in the sixties, seventies and eighties, the people that were portrayed as trans-- what we now call transgender or transsexuals-- in those times, they were either the joke of the movie or they were, you know, the crazed maniac killer (laughs), you know? And I would look at them and I would say, “Oh, that's me when I grow up.” But yet, then I find out that they're either the joke or they're, you know, the crazed maniac killer. And I'm like, “Okay, well, that's not me.” So, I'm not like that, but you know, here I am, that's who I was. So, I wanted to be able to give, you know, the next generation, the next batch of people, because I--after going to a bunch of support groups for being transgender-- I realized that I wasn’t alone and there's a lot more people out there that are like me. And once I started doing my history research, you know, of transgender people--for instance, we've been around forever. I mean, I can tell you, in the Neolithic Age there was art drawings on cave walls of a third sex. And, you know, that date back to about 7,000 BC. So, (laughs) people like me, I've been around forever (laughs). It's just so something that hasn't been known, that's all, at least to the Western world. Because you take, you know--actually to be truthful with you, I identify as Two Spirit. The Indigenous people--not just here in North America--but Indigenous people all around the world have some of them have multiple genders. Two Spirit is an in North American Indigenous term that encompasses some tribes have as many as five genders, some three genders. Friedman: Wow. Pronovost: There's some tribes that don't even acknowledge gender. Men and women didn't have specific rules, if you will. I know of a tribe in Africa that, you know--I met a girl years ago, a trans girl from Africa. She had no concept of what he/she [pronouns] meant. They only had one pronoun for all people in her language. So, it was very difficult for her and even than her mother to understand that concept when they moved here to the United States. So. Leea Pronovost discusses coming out as a transgender woman in 2006 after a near-death experience. After coming out, Pronovost turns towards activism after noticing the hurdles that transgender people face in terms of access to medical treatment, or lack of protections in the housing or job markets. Activism (LGBTQ) ; LGBTQ+ activism ; transgender 1098 Activist activities Friedman: Wow. That's really interesting. And I'm glad that you finally found a community when you first came out. When you first started, um, your working in activism, did you partner with any organizations during these early years and what type-- what type of activities did you participate in? Pronovost: Oh, I partnered with many organizations to be truthful with you. One of the first groups--the two first groups that I partnered with were a group called Tri Ess [an international support group for heterosexual cross-dressers and their partners and families.]. It was actually started in the 1950s by a woman named Virginia Prince. Basically, that was for, in her terms, heterosexual cross-dressers. Although once I became involved in the club, found out that there were a lot of transgender people within the organization that wanted to actually transition. Not that I wouldn't say myself, I would say that cross-dressers do fall under the trans umbrellas, so to speak. So, but, some, some of them don't agree with that, some of them do agree with it. Some of them think they're the only true trans people, when you really get down to the nitty gritty. One of the other main things was the transgender group of Pioneer Valley in Massachusetts. I--that was a peer support group and we were active in helping others find out that--because one of the toughest things that I found was in talking to new people as they come into the groups that they always thought they were alone as well. Because they never knew anybody that was like them. So, you know, that made such a difference for me in my life to realize all of a sudden, “Hey, they're like me and you know what, they're okay. That's an engineer, that's a medical doctor and that's a lawyer,” you know? “This person, you know, is, you know, just a normal average person living their life (laughs) so it's not so bad.” So, it made such a difference in the world for me that it, you know, it just, it seemed like common sense to move into it. And then I mean, I blossomed into a bunch of other organizations. I, uh, (laughs), I didn't start my transition into late in life, as you can imagine. Born in [19]59 and starting in 2007. It was forty-seven or forty-eight years old or something like that. But the thing is it, they, it--I wanted to do as much as I could for, or wherever. And so not being of (laughs)--I decided to help another group called Rainbow Elders. That was a nonprofit group run by, uh, not another nonprofit, that they did stuff for seniors. I can't remember their name off of top of my head, but it-- we used to do things like go out on panels and teach medical facilities. We would teach nursing homes. We would teach assisted living centers. We were teaching people in, um, it just reaching out to all sorts of businesses and stuff and doing panels and educating them about the LBGT experience by telling our stories. Then, you know, I joined another group over at UMass Amherst and, I--that was the Stonewall Speakers Bureau. And they were very active within the GSAs [Gay Straight Alliance]. So, I used to go out to all the GSAs, whether it was a grammar school, middle school, junior high school, high school, and sometimes even other colleges, asking us to come out and speak to gender-related studies and/or education of the faculty. So, and then I started--because the group--that Pioneer Valley group and the Tri Ess group that I first started with--one of them was up in New Hampshire, even though I lived in Massachusetts and the other one was in the Southern part of Massachusetts. So, I was having a drive, you know, anywhere from forty-five minutes to an hour, sometimes even two hours to go to a meeting. So, I decided to create my own peer support group, which I partnered with a hospital in Western Mass[achussets] in the county that I was in, Franklin County in Greenfield Mass. And they gave me a place to work with and a small budget. And I was able to start a group that actually still runs today, even though I'm here in California now. So, then because I also became part of what was known as the Massachusetts Transgendered Political Coalition, which in 2011, we ended up fighting for transgender rights. They made us actually take off on the bill by the time it--in order to get it out of committee, we had to take off transgender public accommodations rights. But it--bill did still encompass our rights to financial institutions, our rights for housing, our rights for, uh, financial housing and employment. Those were the three main rights that we were fighting for. Which it did end up getting passed in 2011 by the end of that year. Uh, they became-- (both talking at once) Friedman: (both talking at once)--Oh, congratulations. Pronovost: Yeah, thanks. But then again, in another organization that I became part of back in 2016, I helped to--we went back and lobbied or advocated for the state government to include transgender public accommodations, which would give us the--most people think, “Oh, that's the bathroom stuff and locker room stuff,” but there's so much more to it when you really sit down and think about it. The right to ride on a public transportation, the right to, (laughs), let's say I worked in a restaurant. If I punched out my time card to go out the back employee door and walk around to the front of that restaurant that hired me, they still have the right to refuse to serve me. Those are actually public accommodations. The right to be served in a hospital, you know? Many times throughout the years that I've worked, I've had myself and my friends have had discrimination by going to a hospital. I had one friend that they fell down on black ice and she got taken away on an ambulance and when they tore off or cut off her clothes, they found that she had a penis. And the doctor just looked at her and said--and then looked at the nurses and said, “Get that thing out of my hospital.” So, she--they called for another ambulance to take her to another hospital. Nowadays, because of that (unintelligible) she's permanently disabled, because she didn't receive the proper attention. And now, you know, we as taxpayers are paying to support her because of that discrimination. And so, things like that just didn't make any sense to me. So, you know, it made sense to go back and fight. So, we formed another organization called Freedom Massachusetts. And we fought for trans rights and we won them. But also, because of all that other activism, I had other organizations like PFLAG [organization dedicated to supporting the LGBTQ+ community ; formally known as Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] and, uh, PFLAG in two separate counties, both of them had asked me on to be on their board of directors. So, I ended up being on their board of directors at the same time about the--that same time I had many friends that I lost over the years in the support groups. And when I say I lost them, I mean that they took their own lives. And they're no longer here. And prior to my transition, I never knew anybody that committed suicide. Now, all of a sudden in the few short years that I was out as a trans person, I knew more than half a dozen. And I just felt that was wrong. So, I had heard about a organization called Trans Lifeline, and I actually became an operator for them. And because I, myself, (laughs), had, as I told you before, early in my life, I didn't know how to deal with this. I didn't know there were other people like me, there were a few times that I'd tried to commit suicide. So, and if I-- so if I could prevent one trans person from (laughs) stop—help-- stop them from committing suicide, then, you know, that would make me feel great. So, I spent a number of years as an operator, and then I actually became a team lead for a bunch of operators. Actually, even given peer support to the operators, because if you can imagine Trans Lifeline was an organization that was created by transgender people, for trans gender people. And the only criteria was that you had to be trans to be an operator. What helped was, though most of the operators were ones that had tried to commit suicide at one point or another. And sometimes when you're talking somebody down from a suicidal attempt, it brings you yourself into some pretty dark places. So, the operators would definitely need some, you know, self-care and guidance to get back to a point where they can do self-care even. And I know that I have many cases that led me into dark places that I didn't want to go, but yet, I went there to try and make sure, and it makes a difference. It really does, the peer thing, because I've never lost anyone when I was talking with them. When an individual that's on that brink or on that fence, or standing on that (laughs) that [precipice] to jump, if you will. Having somebody else talk to you, that's been there and been through what your experiencing, makes a huge difference. And they open up and listen. And then they also feel much easier to open up to you so that they can pour those feelings out and step off that [precipice]. So, that was really nice work for me. And then the next thing that I (laughs) became active in was the Transgender Law Center up in Oakland, California. I started volunteering for what they call the Detention Project. The Detention Project is basically--there's a lot of transgender people within our prison system that either wanted to transition or had already started their transition and they’re wondering, you know, “Here you have this trans woman sitting in a male jail, what are her rights?” Um, you know, and, “Can she have her name change? Can she get women's clothing? Can be isolated so she's protected away from the general population?” All of these things and Transgender Law Center addresses all of those issues. I was basically a research person for the lawyers and I would actually go and research each individual state's laws pertaining to the detention of transgender people, and then compose letters. And the lawyers would then approve or ask me, you know, change this, change that. And then we would issue the letters back to the inmates, so that they knew what their rights were and how to fund those rights. So, which meant a lot to me (laughs) the next step phase in my, uh, was actually working with the local because I was doing on the national level. And I started working with the local county jails and state prisons, and department of corrections. And I helped them to write--I helped both Massachusetts and Connecticut to write their policies on transgender people. And then--the same way with most of the county jail systems, I helped them to write--and I ran peer support groups within the county jails as well, so. Then I met a woman online (laughs) and moved out here to California (laughs). Well, it, it took a while. It took a few years, it--we had a Coast-to-Coast relationship, and we developed this great relationship. And we decided to take it to the next level and move in together. And I tried to get her to come out to Massachusetts, but one point she came out and it was minus--the high temperature was minus fifteen degrees. And this was the week between Christmas and New Year's. So, she was like, “No, no, no, no.” (both laugh) So, of course I've moved out here, and been living here ever since then. But before I even moved out, once we made that decision to move out here, I was like, “You know, I'm an--I'm an advocate and activist. What do you have out there that I can get involved with?” So, she introduced me to the North County--she was living in Oceanside at the time, and she introduced me to the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. So, I met Max Disposti, the Director and Founder of the place. And I was like, “What can I do to come?” (laughs) You know? “What can I do when I get out here?” (laughs) “Where can I go?” He's like, “Don't worry, we'll put you to work.” So, (both laugh) soon as I moved out here, they had an opening for the Unicorn Homes program, which being a case manager for that program, it was only fifteen hours a week. But, to start, and I was like, “Hey, it's along the lines,” because a lot of times running the peer support group in prisons, I was helping people do a lot of navigate social services that they would need getting out of jail. So, it wasn't too far of a fetch for me to be able to help people, you know, navigate applying for Medi-Cal or, you know, Cal Fresh or being there just to listen and try to help homeless youth. And one of the things, even in Massachusetts, that one of my goals was eventually to create a transgender housing service. So, when I moved here and I had that opportunity to join something like this, I jumped on it. And Max liked what he saw in all the volunteer work that I did. So, he hired me for the position, even though there were a number of other candidates, I received the job. And I just started doing a whole bunch of free work for them (laughs). Because this is where my passion is. In the meantime, you know, I had been, you know, I still own property back East in Massachusetts, rental property. And, you know, I had a nice package of--so I wasn't worried about money or anything. So, why not work where my heart is? Nowadays though, I do a whole bunch of other things for The Center. I manage most of the grants for The Center. I also, now am, uh, Gender Advocacy Project Chair person for the Gender Advocacy Project, which puts on a number of events a year they do--we just recently had the Transgender Day of Visibility a couple weekends ago. Well, this weekend will be two weekends ago. Which was a wonderful event. We had, I don't know if I had to guess probably around 200, maybe 300 people come through and a bunch of booth with resources. And we had a great show. We had speakers and musicians and playing, and we had fun and games for the youth, and it was just a wonderful weekend. Wonderful day. But, so. Gender Advocacy Project also does Transgender Day of Remembrance. And, which is in November twentieth and a rather somber day for us because we're remembering those that we lost through transphobic violence. And the past few years have been actually kind of tough because the numbers have gone up astronomically in 2020, if I remember correctly, there was forty-one or forty-two, and in 2021, I believe there was fifty-six trans women. Now when I say these numbers, they seem like small numbers compared to a nationwide thing, but those are the ones that we actually know. Which, you know, a lot of times the gender is not known and, and they--or, and/or they misgender the person because the family doesn't want them to know about it. So, that number, even though the known cases keeps going up, I'm sure it's at least doubled if not tripled. So for-- for supposedly, according to the statistics, there's less than one percent of people are transgender throughout the nation. So, for that small amount of people to be targeted, the numbers of murders like that--violent murders--basically hate crimes, in my opinion, that's an astronomical amount. When you start looking at the statistics and the breakouts. Especially that most of those numbers, you know--I carry a certain amount of privilege because I'm a white transgender woman--or I appear to be white. I do have some American heritage, um, Indigenous blood in me. But that's something that people don't see because I appear to be white. So, therefore I've got a certain amount of privilege. I know that. When I look at a trans woman of color, those are the ones that are targeted when you look at those people that we honor year after year after year. It's usually Black or Brown people, and occasionally an Indigenous person in there. But, um, and sprinkled with a few Caucasian people. So, you know, it's so that when you look at that target population, that number, even it's more astronomical, when you break it down to what I call the “intersectionality of marginalizations.” So, you know, that's why that particular day is so important to me, even though it's a somber day. And I'm glad that we celebrate that and celebrate those lives that we lost. I'm hoping one day (laughs) and trying to do our best by fighting the hate. One of the grants that the North County LGBTQ Resource Center just got it is--we got a bunch of money into actually--and that's what the grant is called, “Fight the Hate.” (laughs) So, you know, it's an honor for me to be doing this work and nowadays I'm actually paid full time for what I do, because I do the grants. I do the Unicorn Homes. I'm also the Gender Advocacy Project Chair. I'm also--it, I never mentioned what I did prior to, well, while all that activation was going on, activism and advocacy work was going on, I actually worked a full-time job in telecommunications. I was a Level III Telecommunications Engineer. So, now I do all the IT work (laughs) at The Center as well. So, (both laugh), anything I can do for the community, you know, to make their life better. And, you know, I'm, uh, want to, you know, the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, I feel like I'm privileged to be able to work there, to be honest with you. And to be able to work in such a queer environment where I don't have to face what all my siblings face on a daily basis, you know? Because, despite all the work that we've done, there's still a lot of stigmatization, and even hatred of the trans community. It’s funny how, you know, one of the things, when you've learned the history, it was, you know, of the entire gay rights movement. One of--they say that turning point was Stonewall, right? Well, the first person to actually throw something at the police was actually a transgender woman. And the other trans girls started in. And then if you know, I know people that were actually there and they told me that basically the lesbians then started joining in. And it was at the encouragement of the lesbians that the gay men finally stood up and started doing something against the police. So, if you look at that in its context who, it--that key moment who was the first trans woman? But in gay rights movements, we were left behind. We were taken out because we were so controversial and they wouldn't be able to get their rights. That's what we were told as trans women or transgender people. If we were in clumped in with them, you know? So, even though we were there at the beginning and even well before that, you know, a lot of--there, there were riots all over the country, you know? If you look at San Francisco, if you look at Miami, there were riots in gay bars where trans women--and trans women were the target, because a lot of the women, because they couldn't get jobs were street workers. So, therefore they're trying to pick up these supposedly “men” that dress as “women,” which at the time was against the law, working as a sex worker. So, it's because of that attraction that the trans women stood up and then the lesbian stood up with them, and then the gay guys stood up with them. And yet, here they are fighting for their rights and telling us to step back. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: You know, it just didn't make sense. And believe it or not, there's still quite a few lesbian--for instance, I'm with another woman, I consider--I'm sexually attracted to other women. I'm romantically attracted to other women. Not so much with the guys. So, I consider myself basically a lesbian. There's a lot of lesbians out there that would tell me I'm not a lesbian because I'm a trans woman. These are what we would call TERFS: trans-exclusionary radical feminists. And they're out there all over the world, you know? One of the most famous and most recent news is J.K. Rowling. (laughs) Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, (laughs) despite all the love for, you know, the Harry Potter stories, I have to disagree with her principles. So, you know, so there's still--my point is despite all the fighting and activism and how far we've actually come, we still have a huge way to go. So. Leea Pronovost describes her experiences partnering with a plethora of LGBTQ+ activist organizations. Pronovost collaborated with organizations on the East and West Coasts, in fields and topics such as education, peer support, suicide prevention, prison reform, politics, housing, and gender advocacy. Activism (LGBTQ) ; California. ; Gay-straight alliances in schools ; Greenfield (Mass.) ; homophobia ; LGBTQ+ activism ; Massachusetts ; New Hampshire ; Oakland (Calif.) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; PFLAG ; transgender ; Transgender discrimination ; Transgender Law Center ; transgender rights ; transphobia ; Tri Ess (Organization) 3098 Advocating towards inclusivity Friedman: That actually leads me to my next question. Um, do you think creating an inclusive society is achievable? Pronovost: (both laugh) Honestly, I hope so. You know, one of the latest endeavors that I've looked into is--and I hope I'm not premature in saying this. I've been appointed, still yet to be confirmed--a Senior Commissioner for the City of--Senior Affairs Commissioner for the City of Vista. So, I'm doing my part to hopefully make that true. I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime. I am much older than (laughs) most people nowadays. I am a senior, hence why I'm on that (laughs) Senior Affairs Commission. Or want to be on it. So, and as of lately, there's more and more transgender people within the political scheme, trying to fight the battle from within, which will hopefully eventually bring that about. I mean, that's my ultimate goal. One of the reasons why I do stuff like this, this oral history presentation, or any of my activism--a lot of it is educational. I have a pet peeve that, you know, education brings in tolerance. Tolerance can achieve, hopefully, acceptance. And once acceptance is there, in a general population, then the next thing that that should beget is inclusion. And that's where me, that's my goal. (laughs) Since coming out and becoming an activist, that's--that's my life--that's my life goal, if you will. I know I probably will not see it in my lifetime within the next twenty or so years. I hope we still achieve, you know, steps moving in that direction as we go. One of the things that the Biden administration just recently did, was give, uh, make the announcement on Transgender Day of Visibility, which is March thirty-first. They made an announcement that they were going to allow an X marker on the passports for a third gender. They were going to make it much easier for a person like me who, you know, I was identified male at birth, but yet, I'm a woman, make it much easier for somebody like me to change that name and gender marker on the passport. Another thing that they were planning on doing was one of the really bad areas that--and a lot of us had been fighting against this, the TSA--when you go through TSA screening in an airport and you have the x-ray, um, it's happened to me, you know? I identify as a woman, all my IDs are women and they see something down below. And they call you out, “Hey, we've got an anomaly. You need to step aside over here and we need to get somebody to physically search you.” Friedman: That’s awful. Pronovost: So, they're going to do away with that genderized screening. Which is an awesome thing. Finally, thank God. Because it's so embarrassing, you know, when that happens. And it happens to so many people, it's ridiculous what we have to endure and by being identified that way. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, that, that was a step in the right direction. They’re looking at making the Affordable Care Act more inclusive for gender treatment, especially one of the things that we recently did as the Gender Advocacy Project, which is the program of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. I--one of my volunteers put together a list of all the state bills. For instance--what I mean by that is, last year in 2021, we had one hundred and ninety-one hate bills. Most of them were targeting transgender people. And in particular transgendered youth and their ability to receive transgender healthcare. Me, working on Trans Lifeline, know that most of those phone calls that I used to get in on Trans Lifeline are trans youth, anticipating and wanting to commit suicide. If they were accepted and were allowed to get their hormones, though, those numbers would drop drastically. And we have the statistics to back that up. But here, these states are wanting to outlaw and actually go even--go after doctors. And look at Texas. Texas wants to, you know, go after the parents saying that gender-affirmation healthcare for their child is actually child abuse, you know? So, one of the things the Biden administration said was they were going to fight, that they were going to make the Affordable Care Act to protect so that doctors don't have to report that to state agencies. Because they, you know, the state agencies, the state Texas--state of Texas, was forcing the doctors to violate people's HIPAA rights. I mean, they have no right to that information, but yet the state's forcing the doctors to turn that over. HIPAA's a national law, It's not a state law (laughs). They shouldn't be able to bypass federal laws. So, the Biden administration, uh, pledge to make it more difficult for states to be able to do stuff like that. You look at the “Don't Say Gay Bill” in Florida [SB 1834: Parental Rights in Education], you know? Ohio just came out with a bill last week--or just earlier this week, I forget which--that basically mimics the exact wording of Florida's bill. And no one, the state of Ohio and who they are and their history, that will pass, you know? So, we're going to have a couple of states that, you know, people are not allowed to say “You're gay.” There's another state in Utah. Utah wrote a bill that's very similar to Texas's bill about transgender healthcare, but it actually even encompasses adults. So, they want to make it illegal to be me (laughs), you know? And force--trying to force us to go back into the closet, so to speak. Because like I said, you know, one of the thing, one of their arguments is, “Oh, it's become a ‘popular thing.’” It's not popular. You just never knew what the real numbers were because we were all hiding away in the closet. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, you know. These are thing-- that's why I say we still have so far to go. This particular year though, in the first three months of this year, we have two hundred and thirty-eight hate bills. So, we even-- last year was a record year with all the hate bills, but in three months’ time, we have surpassed all of the bills from last year. So, they're--the thing that I'm looking at is I'm hoping this is like the last grasp (laughs) of them. (both laugh), you know? Their desperation before they fall down into the cracking crevice and go wherever. Friedman: I hope. Pronovost: (laughs) Go away. Yeah. Well, that's my hope (laughs). Because, you know, if you look at the statistics throughout the entire United States as a nation, over sixty percent of the nation is for transgendered people and having our rights or rights in particular of LGBT people. So, that's more than half the population. So eventually I know we will get there because that acceptance number and because, you know, I see the trends: tolerance, acceptance, then inclusion. I know we'll get there, but we still have so far to go. So, um, yeah. I hope that--I hope that answers your question (laughs). Leea Pronovost discusses her thoughts about inclusivity in society. She hopes that society will become more inclusive of the LGBTQ+ community, but believes that it may take many more decades before society’s acceptance of LGBTQ+ people can happen. She also discusses the Biden administration’s legislative’s initiatives to protect LGBTQ+ rights. Activism (LGBTQ) ; Biden, Joseph R., Jr. ; California ; homophobia ; LGBTQ+ activism ; transgender ; Transgender discrimination ; transgender rights ; transphobia ; Vista (Calif.) 3748 West Coast and East Coast LGBTQ+ politics Friedman: Oh, absolutely. Kind of going back to politics, Like throughout your time, working on the East Coast and the West Coast, have you kind of noticed a difference in the politics working on both Coasts? Or, has it just kind of depended, um, kind of like the political shifts because you kind of were mostly on the on the East Coast? Um, is it kind of-- does it not really matter because you kind of just, you mostly on the East Coast for most of your life and--? Pronovost: Um, be honest with you, knowing, I don't think it's that much of a difference here, you know. Here at times, I think there's certain pockets you, that if you will, that are actually inclusive. When I look at the city of Oceanside, for instance, you know? I had mayor Esther Sanchez come out to Transgender Day of Visibility and she gave a speech about being visible and standing up for what's right, you know? And, so I see Oceanside as a pocket, but yet, when I look at a city like Vista where I actually live, you know? Vista is, you know, for lack of better terminology, very conservative. But then there's even worse conservative areas. Like, you start pushing up into Menifee or something like that, you know? You're looking at very, um, I don't like to use this because I don't like to use somebody's name, but it very much what most of us within the community would consider to be Trumpers or people that propagate hate. And I hate using that because I don't like to talk about individuals or refer to that. But that term, let's take it away from the person because that term existed, uh, “Trumping somebody” is overcoming is somebody. So that's what I mean by that terminology, more or less. Where they are totally conservative. And actually, even don't like people like me. You know, I've had people up there in that city actually reach out to me saying they're having troubles with their school systems. Now here in California, for a transgender person and they should--a student should be able to change their name on all information except for their transcripts. That's the only thing that they can't change because that's a legal document, but they should be able to walk in without the school notifying the parents that, “Hey, I no longer want to be called Jane. I want to be called Max.” And the school legally is obligated to change their paperwork. Friedman: I see. Pronovost: But yet that's not happening in a city like that. I get phone calls quite often saying that the school is fighting the individual or the school has actually outed the individual to the parents, even. Because some of these schools aren't, you know, minors are even protected from this, the school is not supposed to out the youth. But yet here we have it happening, you know? And you know, it--so the hate and the stigmatization and the indignities and the discrimination still happens. No matter where you are and back East, I happen to live in a pocket--that Pioneer Valley group that I belong to. That's the whole Connecticut River Valley area throughout all of Western Mass. And that was very progressive. I mean, we--there's a town called Northampton there, which it is kind of, uh, was the gay city for the East Coast kind of equivalent to what San Francisco is to here. So, it's mainly a college town, but that made the entire whole (laughs), excuse me, for lack of better terminology, Pioneer Valley seemed very, uh, “granola-ish,” if you will. Originally Pioneer Valley, that whole Connecticut River Valley, those were the first communes back in the sixties. They started there and then moved out here to the West Coast. So, (laughs), very similar, you know, because even in Massachusetts, you still had your pockets of hate and bigotry and, so. It's very similar. The fight's the same, no matter where (laughs) I seem to go. But, you know, the goal is to get more cities, you know, to be like Oceanside, you know? Because Oceanside they've raise, you know, they do raise a pride flag. Here in Vista, the pride flag that (laughs) that rainbow flag's never been raised here in the City of Vista. And so, you know, I'm hoping that maybe sitting on one of the commissions, (laughs) I can change that (laughs) from within. And so, you know. Leea Pronovost discusses the similarities and differences between LGBTQ+-related politics on the West and East Coasts. California ; Connecticut River Valley ; Massachusetts ; Menifee (Calif.) ; Northampton (Mass.) ; Oceanside (Calif.) ; Vista (Calif.) 4167 The importance of empowering others / Conclusion of interview Friedman: Well, I just have one more question. Pronovost: Okay. Friedman: Um, so you, you've already talked about it. You have a wonderful year--a wonderful career in activism. What have you learned throughout your twelve years working in the trans and LGBT field of activism? Pronovost: Oh, (laughs), I've learned so much it's hard to pinpoint any one thing. I think the one that weighs the heaviest on my heart, if you will, is probably--you know, one of the things that early on people did mention about the intersectionality of marginalizations and now that I've had, you know, more than ten years at this, I actually get to see it. And that breaks my heart. How, you know, for instance, you know, I worked as a Telecom Engineer and I was the Senior Telecom Engineer for one of the world's largest telecommunications companies, Nippon Telephone, and Telegraph [Nippon Telegraph and Telephone]. The first time I walked into an engineering meeting as me, as Leea, they looked at me like, you know, I-- “Where where's the donuts and coffee?” (laughs). That was the type of look I got. And, “Who the hell are you to be sitting here in this engineering meeting?” When, you know, before I used to lead the engineering meeting, you know? So, I know the difference between being a man in a man's field and being a woman trying to make it in a man's field. And, and so I don't—[connection froze]—People that I serve doing what I do and I look at, you know, a trans woman of color, and I see how much more discrimination that they actually face. Because of that intersectionality. Now you start adding more intersectionalities on top of that, such as being disabled or mentally disabled, you know? Disadvantaged. That--those numbers not only do--I mean, they grow exponentially and that's what weighs really heavy on my heart. And now I see that so much more easily, and makes me want to fight all that much or for them, you know? But also at the same time, you know, being--working at the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, and seeing other people fight for, you know, my rights as a trans woman, I want to say, you know, not for me, without me, you know? So that's one of--that ties well into the intersectionality thing. So, you know, I know I can't go out there. I can mention about it, but I can't go out there and say, “You know, we need more protections for trans women of color.” I can say that, but, you know, I don't experience that because I do have that privilege. I can talk from that privilege that we need to do something about it, you know? So, but I want those, I want to be able to empower those trans women of color to come forward and speak up for themselves. I want to, you know, empower other people to do what I do so that the fight you, I know I'm not going to achieve my goal in my lifetime so that I know the legacy I leave behind is me helping them empower themselves so that they can even empower other people and move it forward. So, that's the main thing I've learned is that we have to give people the power to have that voice. So, it isn't just about any one person, it's about empowering an entire demographic, if you will. Friedman: Well, thank you. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else that you would like to share today? Pronovost: Well, geez, we've covered so much. (both laugh). I don't know. I don't think so. I think we pretty much covered it. It's a lot to chew and digest, if you will. So, I think, I think we've done a good job. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So. Friedman: Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today, Leea. We are so happy to have you a part of this project. Pronovost: Yeah, my pleasure is so, um. I'm just happy to be here. Like I said, that that's my pet peeve. If I can do something to--I'm hoping this gets seen by as many people as it possibly can be. And it gives them the self-confidence in seeing somebody like me to empower themselves to find their voice. So. Friedman: Absolutely. Just continuing on with your, uh, with what you've been doing from the start, basically ever since you started in 2007, 2008. Yeah. Pronovost: Yeah. Friedman: Yeah. Well, thank you again. Pronovost: You're very welcome. And it's my pleasure and thank you for having me. Friedman: Well, it's our pleasure (both laugh). Leea Pronovost concludes the interview by summarizing what she has learned throughout her career working as an activist and the importance of intersectionality in LGBTQ+ advocacy. transgender ; transphobia Oral history Leea Pronovost is a transgender activist and has been advocating for transgender and LGBTQ+ rights since coming out after a near-death experience in 2006. Pronovost began her work in activism in Massachusetts and partnered with a variety of organizations where she worked to help the queer community in areas such as LGBTQ+ education, housing, and hospital rights. She also worked for the Transgender Law Center and the Trans Lifeline. Now residing in Vista, CA, Pronovost is a staff member at the North Country LGBTQ+ Resource Center, where she works as a case manager for Unicorn Homes, chairs the Gender Advocacy Project, and is a grant writer. Julia Friedman: Okay. Today is Friday, April eighth, 2022 at 10:02 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Leea Pronovost for the University Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Leea, thank you for being with me here today. Leea Pronovost: Oh, thank you for having me. Friedman: I would first like to start by asking when and where were you born? Pronovost: I was born in 1959, October second in Springfield, Massachusetts. Friedman: And can you please describe your childhood? Pronovost: (laughs) Well it wasn&#039 ; t exactly a very pleasant childhood, let&#039 ; s put it that way. One of my earliest memories was actually in 1963, I was four years old and at a Christmas party at my grandmother&#039 ; s house. And I saw my grandmother used to give us little money cards every Christmas--all of her grandchildren. And I noticed my name on an envelope my mother was holding. And I asked her what that word was in front of my name. My grandmother had written &quot ; Master.&quot ; And I didn&#039 ; t know that word--I didn&#039 ; t. So, she told me what it was, that it was a &quot ; Master&quot ; and what it stood for. And then I saw she had my little sister&#039 ; s envelope in her hand and I asked her what was in front of my little sister&#039 ; s name because of what&#039 ; s different than mine. And, uh, it was &quot ; Miss&quot ; and I asked her what that meant. And I said, I basically said, &quot ; There&#039 ; s something wrong here.&quot ; And I think, &quot ; I&#039 ; m supposed to be more like the &#039 ; Miss.&#039 ; &quot ; (laughs) So after her explanation of which each one of those terms meant. As you can imagine that was 1963. So, (laughs) a whole different world. And my mother basically told me to shut up and never talk about it again. Which, you know, because we actually started getting into an argument about it in front of all my aunts and uncles and cousins. And so that&#039 ; s why she told me that. And honestly, I never did talk with her about it again. She actually died before I ever had a chance to, so. That&#039 ; s one of my earliest memories. After that it didn&#039 ; t get much better dealing with that issue. I mean, I was raised very strict Catholic. I was an alter boy. I, um, in my teen year, even, I spent a lot of time in a Jesuit monastery trying to pray that away if you will. And even thought about going into the seminary at one point and becoming a Catholic priest. But I didn&#039 ; t, I ended up joining the Navy. But that&#039 ; s (laughs) another story. So, the--and my father wasn&#039 ; t exactly the nicest of people. He was very much, as you can imagine, a bigoted person, against gays and people like me. I can remember being a kid and hearing about Christine Jorgensen [the first transgender woman in the United States to attain fame for receiving a sex reassignment surgery] and some of the remarks that my father talked to about when he referred to her and were--made me feel very terrible about myself because I knew that&#039 ; s how I felt. So, it wasn&#039 ; t an easy time, believe me. But that&#039 ; s pretty much my basic childhood. Friedman: Well thank you for sharing that, Leea. I&#039 ; m sorry that you had such a difficult time growing up. Pronovost: Well, it was a totally different world compared to what we have now. Being transgender wasn&#039 ; t--I didn&#039 ; t even, I don&#039 ; t think that word even existed until, you know, the 1990s. At some point, I mean, people like me, they used to call them &quot ; transsexuals,&quot ; which nowadays a lot of the trans community considers that a derogatory term, so. And--but that&#039 ; s the way our society was back then. I mean, I can even tell you that in 1977, I joined the Navy, um, give you--for instance. And when I joined the Navy on my ASVAB, I scored in the top five percent in the nation and they gave me two strikes for going into bootcamp, one strike for coming out of bootcamp. And I was placed into, um, nuclear engineering program to be a nuclear engineer on a sub, and all my life, probably about 1965, I actually started cross dressing, borrowing my sister&#039 ; s clothes, because it made me feel better. But yet there was a certain amount of shame with that. So--but that continued on even into the Navy. And I can remember being on a leave of absence, going to a bar dressed up, and coming out of the bar and being discovered by my commanding officer who then proceeded to file charges against me for crossdressing. And I ended up going through a court-marshal. So, push came to shove, they didn&#039 ; t do what they call a Section 8 on me. What they did do was give me a personal hardship discharge, because they basically said they didn&#039 ; t want &quot ; my kind&quot ; there. So, but it was very nerve-wracking. I can remember thinking--and I was living in Massachusetts at the time. I&#039 ; m like thinking throughout the entire court-marshal worst case scenario, they Section 8 me, classify me as, you know, &quot ; mentally disturbed,&quot ; because of my crossdressing. And if I had went back to Massachusetts with that on my discharge papers, they could have (laughs) at actually put me into a mental institution back then. They still had governmental-run mental institutions in Massachusetts then, and they were not a very pretty sight. And even with people like me, they would actually--and gay people--they would actually lobotomize them trying to &quot ; fix them,&quot ; so to speak. So, (laugh) it wasn&#039 ; t, it was a totally different world. And I can, you know, they appreciate all the things that, people like me and the whole, uh, gay movement, gay rights and people that fought for and the seventies and even into the eighties and are still fighting today. And I&#039 ; m one of them. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: Because no matter how far we&#039 ; ve come, there&#039 ; s still much further to go. So. Friedman: I would actually like to switch gears if that&#039 ; s okay and talk about your years in activism. You&#039 ; ve been an activist within the transgender community for twelve years. When did you first decide to turn to activism? Pronovost: Well, after I felt--after I came out to everybody, um--let me explain. In 2006, I had a near death experience that actually--because as I told you, you know, from 1963 on--I knew something was different. 2006, I had a near death experience that caused me to look at what my life was about, who I am, why I survived. And I came to the realization that I had to do something about this. And I started my transition soon as I recovered from that, which was probably about a year after that. I was well enough to actually--I didn&#039 ; t start hormones at that time, but I started looking at herbal supplements that would change my body. And I didn&#039 ; t come out to everybody. My current ex-wife at the time, I did come out to her about changing. And she was okay with it as long as I didn&#039 ; t tell anybody. She carried--being a Latin person, carried a certain stigmatization around who I was. So, um, but anyway, it took me a couple of years to get on hormones and there&#039 ; s even stories there (laughs). I was actually denied my hormones at one point in time by my therapist, which really--I didn&#039 ; t understand why. I understood that that was the laws. And then, you know, I&#039 ; ve heard other stories of other going to support groups and talking to a therapist and learning how to come out to basically the world. And it troubled me how difficult it was. And that whole path of trying to-- knowing deep down inside (laughs) all my life, that something was different, just never realized what it was and because I grew up before internet. And so, it the only place I could find information was in a library. And I was too ashamed to go into a library and pull a book about transsexuals (laughs), you know? Especially with my Catholic upbringing. So, it was very difficult and there were many times that throughout my life that I actually tried to commit suicide because of that. Because I thought I was alone. I thought I different. I never knew there was people like me. And then finding all those hurdles that I had to jump through. And then at the same time, you know, I started discovering that the state that I live in, Massachusetts, didn&#039 ; t even have any protections for transgender people. And if I tried to rent an apartment or buy a house, or, you know, get a job as a trans person, people could actually say &quot ; No,&quot ; because I was transgender. So, these things really disturbed me down to my core because, you know, it is who I am. It is my identity. So, that&#039 ; s what really got me to become more active and become an advocate and activist for the community because I wanted to make it better for the next people. I want to make it better for the next generation, so they don&#039 ; t have to struggle like I did. Not knowing who they were. I wanted to give the trans community that visibility so that they have role models that can even, you know, that they can idolize basically, and say, &quot ; I want be like that person.&quot ; Because as a youth, you know, I never had that. We, I mean, if you look in the sixties, seventies and eighties, the people that were portrayed as trans-- what we now call transgender or transsexuals-- in those times, they were either the joke of the movie or they were, you know, the crazed maniac killer (laughs), you know? And I would look at them and I would say, &quot ; Oh, that&#039 ; s me when I grow up.&quot ; But yet, then I find out that they&#039 ; re either the joke or they&#039 ; re, you know, the crazed maniac killer. And I&#039 ; m like, &quot ; Okay, well, that&#039 ; s not me.&quot ; So, I&#039 ; m not like that, but you know, here I am, that&#039 ; s who I was. So, I wanted to be able to give, you know, the next generation, the next batch of people, because I--after going to a bunch of support groups for being transgender-- I realized that I wasn&#039 ; t alone and there&#039 ; s a lot more people out there that are like me. And once I started doing my history research, you know, of transgender people--for instance, we&#039 ; ve been around forever. I mean, I can tell you, in the Neolithic Age there was art drawings on cave walls of a third sex. And, you know, that date back to about 7,000 BC. So, (laughs) people like me, I&#039 ; ve been around forever (laughs). It&#039 ; s just so something that hasn&#039 ; t been known, that&#039 ; s all, at least to the Western world. Because you take, you know--actually to be truthful with you, I identify as Two Spirit. The Indigenous people--not just here in North America--but Indigenous people all around the world have some of them have multiple genders. Two Spirit is an in North American Indigenous term that encompasses some tribes have as many as five genders, some three genders. Friedman: Wow. Pronovost: There&#039 ; s some tribes that don&#039 ; t even acknowledge gender. Men and women didn&#039 ; t have specific rules, if you will. I know of a tribe in Africa that, you know--I met a girl years ago, a trans girl from Africa. She had no concept of what he/she [pronouns] meant. They only had one pronoun for all people in her language. So, it was very difficult for her and even than her mother to understand that concept when they moved here to the United States. So. Friedman: Wow. That&#039 ; s really interesting. And I&#039 ; m glad that you finally found a community when you first came out. When you first started, um, your working in activism, did you partner with any organizations during these early years and what type-- what type of activities did you participate in? Pronovost: Oh, I partnered with many organizations to be truthful with you. One of the first groups--the two first groups that I partnered with were a group called Tri Ess [an international support group for heterosexual cross-dressers and their partners and families.]. It was actually started in the 1950s by a woman named Virginia Prince. Basically, that was for, in her terms, heterosexual cross-dressers. Although once I became involved in the club, found out that there were a lot of transgender people within the organization that wanted to actually transition. Not that I wouldn&#039 ; t say myself, I would say that cross-dressers do fall under the trans umbrellas, so to speak. So, but, some, some of them don&#039 ; t agree with that, some of them do agree with it. Some of them think they&#039 ; re the only true trans people, when you really get down to the nitty gritty. One of the other main things was the transgender group of Pioneer Valley in Massachusetts. I--that was a peer support group and we were active in helping others find out that--because one of the toughest things that I found was in talking to new people as they come into the groups that they always thought they were alone as well. Because they never knew anybody that was like them. So, you know, that made such a difference for me in my life to realize all of a sudden, &quot ; Hey, they&#039 ; re like me and you know what, they&#039 ; re okay. That&#039 ; s an engineer, that&#039 ; s a medical doctor and that&#039 ; s a lawyer,&quot ; you know? &quot ; This person, you know, is, you know, just a normal average person living their life (laughs) so it&#039 ; s not so bad.&quot ; So, it made such a difference in the world for me that it, you know, it just, it seemed like common sense to move into it. And then I mean, I blossomed into a bunch of other organizations. I, uh, (laughs), I didn&#039 ; t start my transition into late in life, as you can imagine. Born in [19]59 and starting in 2007. It was forty-seven or forty-eight years old or something like that. But the thing is it, they, it--I wanted to do as much as I could for, or wherever. And so not being of (laughs)--I decided to help another group called Rainbow Elders. That was a nonprofit group run by, uh, not another nonprofit, that they did stuff for seniors. I can&#039 ; t remember their name off of top of my head, but it-- we used to do things like go out on panels and teach medical facilities. We would teach nursing homes. We would teach assisted living centers. We were teaching people in, um, it just reaching out to all sorts of businesses and stuff and doing panels and educating them about the LBGT experience by telling our stories. Then, you know, I joined another group over at UMass Amherst and, I--that was the Stonewall Speakers Bureau. And they were very active within the GSAs [Gay Straight Alliance]. So, I used to go out to all the GSAs, whether it was a grammar school, middle school, junior high school, high school, and sometimes even other colleges, asking us to come out and speak to gender-related studies and/or education of the faculty. So, and then I started--because the group--that Pioneer Valley group and the Tri Ess group that I first started with--one of them was up in New Hampshire, even though I lived in Massachusetts and the other one was in the Southern part of Massachusetts. So, I was having a drive, you know, anywhere from forty-five minutes to an hour, sometimes even two hours to go to a meeting. So, I decided to create my own peer support group, which I partnered with a hospital in Western Mass[achussets] in the county that I was in, Franklin County in Greenfield Mass. And they gave me a place to work with and a small budget. And I was able to start a group that actually still runs today, even though I&#039 ; m here in California now. So, then because I also became part of what was known as the Massachusetts Transgendered Political Coalition, which in 2011, we ended up fighting for transgender rights. They made us actually take off on the bill by the time it--in order to get it out of committee, we had to take off transgender public accommodations rights. But it--bill did still encompass our rights to financial institutions, our rights for housing, our rights for, uh, financial housing and employment. Those were the three main rights that we were fighting for. Which it did end up getting passed in 2011 by the end of that year. Uh, they became-- (both talking at once) Friedman: (both talking at once)--Oh, congratulations. Pronovost: Yeah, thanks. But then again, in another organization that I became part of back in 2016, I helped to--we went back and lobbied or advocated for the state government to include transgender public accommodations, which would give us the--most people think, &quot ; Oh, that&#039 ; s the bathroom stuff and locker room stuff,&quot ; but there&#039 ; s so much more to it when you really sit down and think about it. The right to ride on a public transportation, the right to, (laughs), let&#039 ; s say I worked in a restaurant. If I punched out my time card to go out the back employee door and walk around to the front of that restaurant that hired me, they still have the right to refuse to serve me. Those are actually public accommodations. The right to be served in a hospital, you know? Many times throughout the years that I&#039 ; ve worked, I&#039 ; ve had myself and my friends have had discrimination by going to a hospital. I had one friend that they fell down on black ice and she got taken away on an ambulance and when they tore off or cut off her clothes, they found that she had a penis. And the doctor just looked at her and said--and then looked at the nurses and said, &quot ; Get that thing out of my hospital.&quot ; So, she--they called for another ambulance to take her to another hospital. Nowadays, because of that (unintelligible) she&#039 ; s permanently disabled, because she didn&#039 ; t receive the proper attention. And now, you know, we as taxpayers are paying to support her because of that discrimination. And so, things like that just didn&#039 ; t make any sense to me. So, you know, it made sense to go back and fight. So, we formed another organization called Freedom Massachusetts. And we fought for trans rights and we won them. But also, because of all that other activism, I had other organizations like PFLAG [organization dedicated to supporting the LGBTQ+ community ; formally known as Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] and, uh, PFLAG in two separate counties, both of them had asked me on to be on their board of directors. So, I ended up being on their board of directors at the same time about the--that same time I had many friends that I lost over the years in the support groups. And when I say I lost them, I mean that they took their own lives. And they&#039 ; re no longer here. And prior to my transition, I never knew anybody that committed suicide. Now, all of a sudden in the few short years that I was out as a trans person, I knew more than half a dozen. And I just felt that was wrong. So, I had heard about a organization called Trans Lifeline, and I actually became an operator for them. And because I, myself, (laughs), had, as I told you before, early in my life, I didn&#039 ; t know how to deal with this. I didn&#039 ; t know there were other people like me, there were a few times that I&#039 ; d tried to commit suicide. So, and if I-- so if I could prevent one trans person from (laughs) stop--help-- stop them from committing suicide, then, you know, that would make me feel great. So, I spent a number of years as an operator, and then I actually became a team lead for a bunch of operators. Actually, even given peer support to the operators, because if you can imagine Trans Lifeline was an organization that was created by transgender people, for trans gender people. And the only criteria was that you had to be trans to be an operator. What helped was, though most of the operators were ones that had tried to commit suicide at one point or another. And sometimes when you&#039 ; re talking somebody down from a suicidal attempt, it brings you yourself into some pretty dark places. So, the operators would definitely need some, you know, self-care and guidance to get back to a point where they can do self-care even. And I know that I have many cases that led me into dark places that I didn&#039 ; t want to go, but yet, I went there to try and make sure, and it makes a difference. It really does, the peer thing, because I&#039 ; ve never lost anyone when I was talking with them. When an individual that&#039 ; s on that brink or on that fence, or standing on that (laughs) that [precipice] to jump, if you will. Having somebody else talk to you, that&#039 ; s been there and been through what your experiencing, makes a huge difference. And they open up and listen. And then they also feel much easier to open up to you so that they can pour those feelings out and step off that [precipice]. So, that was really nice work for me. And then the next thing that I (laughs) became active in was the Transgender Law Center up in Oakland, California. I started volunteering for what they call the Detention Project. The Detention Project is basically--there&#039 ; s a lot of transgender people within our prison system that either wanted to transition or had already started their transition and they&#039 ; re wondering, you know, &quot ; Here you have this trans woman sitting in a male jail, what are her rights?&quot ; Um, you know, and, &quot ; Can she have her name change? Can she get women&#039 ; s clothing? Can be isolated so she&#039 ; s protected away from the general population?&quot ; All of these things and Transgender Law Center addresses all of those issues. I was basically a research person for the lawyers and I would actually go and research each individual state&#039 ; s laws pertaining to the detention of transgender people, and then compose letters. And the lawyers would then approve or ask me, you know, change this, change that. And then we would issue the letters back to the inmates, so that they knew what their rights were and how to fund those rights. So, which meant a lot to me (laughs) the next step phase in my, uh, was actually working with the local because I was doing on the national level. And I started working with the local county jails and state prisons, and department of corrections. And I helped them to write--I helped both Massachusetts and Connecticut to write their policies on transgender people. And then--the same way with most of the county jail systems, I helped them to write--and I ran peer support groups within the county jails as well, so. Then I met a woman online (laughs) and moved out here to California (laughs). Well, it, it took a while. It took a few years, it--we had a Coast-to-Coast relationship, and we developed this great relationship. And we decided to take it to the next level and move in together. And I tried to get her to come out to Massachusetts, but one point she came out and it was minus--the high temperature was minus fifteen degrees. And this was the week between Christmas and New Year&#039 ; s. So, she was like, &quot ; No, no, no, no.&quot ; (both laugh) So, of course I&#039 ; ve moved out here, and been living here ever since then. But before I even moved out, once we made that decision to move out here, I was like, &quot ; You know, I&#039 ; m an--I&#039 ; m an advocate and activist. What do you have out there that I can get involved with?&quot ; So, she introduced me to the North County--she was living in Oceanside at the time, and she introduced me to the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. So, I met Max Disposti, the Director and Founder of the place. And I was like, &quot ; What can I do to come?&quot ; (laughs) You know? &quot ; What can I do when I get out here?&quot ; (laughs) &quot ; Where can I go?&quot ; He&#039 ; s like, &quot ; Don&#039 ; t worry, we&#039 ; ll put you to work.&quot ; So, (both laugh) soon as I moved out here, they had an opening for the Unicorn Homes program, which being a case manager for that program, it was only fifteen hours a week. But, to start, and I was like, &quot ; Hey, it&#039 ; s along the lines,&quot ; because a lot of times running the peer support group in prisons, I was helping people do a lot of navigate social services that they would need getting out of jail. So, it wasn&#039 ; t too far of a fetch for me to be able to help people, you know, navigate applying for Medi-Cal or, you know, Cal Fresh or being there just to listen and try to help homeless youth. And one of the things, even in Massachusetts, that one of my goals was eventually to create a transgender housing service. So, when I moved here and I had that opportunity to join something like this, I jumped on it. And Max liked what he saw in all the volunteer work that I did. So, he hired me for the position, even though there were a number of other candidates, I received the job. And I just started doing a whole bunch of free work for them (laughs). Because this is where my passion is. In the meantime, you know, I had been, you know, I still own property back East in Massachusetts, rental property. And, you know, I had a nice package of--so I wasn&#039 ; t worried about money or anything. So, why not work where my heart is? Nowadays though, I do a whole bunch of other things for The Center. I manage most of the grants for The Center. I also, now am, uh, Gender Advocacy Project Chair person for the Gender Advocacy Project, which puts on a number of events a year they do--we just recently had the Transgender Day of Visibility a couple weekends ago. Well, this weekend will be two weekends ago. Which was a wonderful event. We had, I don&#039 ; t know if I had to guess probably around 200, maybe 300 people come through and a bunch of booth with resources. And we had a great show. We had speakers and musicians and playing, and we had fun and games for the youth, and it was just a wonderful weekend. Wonderful day. But, so. Gender Advocacy Project also does Transgender Day of Remembrance. And, which is in November twentieth and a rather somber day for us because we&#039 ; re remembering those that we lost through transphobic violence. And the past few years have been actually kind of tough because the numbers have gone up astronomically in 2020, if I remember correctly, there was forty-one or forty-two, and in 2021, I believe there was fifty-six trans women. Now when I say these numbers, they seem like small numbers compared to a nationwide thing, but those are the ones that we actually know. Which, you know, a lot of times the gender is not known and, and they--or, and/or they misgender the person because the family doesn&#039 ; t want them to know about it. So, that number, even though the known cases keeps going up, I&#039 ; m sure it&#039 ; s at least doubled if not tripled. So for-- for supposedly, according to the statistics, there&#039 ; s less than one percent of people are transgender throughout the nation. So, for that small amount of people to be targeted, the numbers of murders like that--violent murders--basically hate crimes, in my opinion, that&#039 ; s an astronomical amount. When you start looking at the statistics and the breakouts. Especially that most of those numbers, you know--I carry a certain amount of privilege because I&#039 ; m a white transgender woman--or I appear to be white. I do have some American heritage, um, Indigenous blood in me. But that&#039 ; s something that people don&#039 ; t see because I appear to be white. So, therefore I&#039 ; ve got a certain amount of privilege. I know that. When I look at a trans woman of color, those are the ones that are targeted when you look at those people that we honor year after year after year. It&#039 ; s usually Black or Brown people, and occasionally an Indigenous person in there. But, um, and sprinkled with a few Caucasian people. So, you know, it&#039 ; s so that when you look at that target population, that number, even it&#039 ; s more astronomical, when you break it down to what I call the &quot ; intersectionality of marginalizations.&quot ; So, you know, that&#039 ; s why that particular day is so important to me, even though it&#039 ; s a somber day. And I&#039 ; m glad that we celebrate that and celebrate those lives that we lost. I&#039 ; m hoping one day (laughs) and trying to do our best by fighting the hate. One of the grants that the North County LGBTQ Resource Center just got it is--we got a bunch of money into actually--and that&#039 ; s what the grant is called, &quot ; Fight the Hate.&quot ; (laughs) So, you know, it&#039 ; s an honor for me to be doing this work and nowadays I&#039 ; m actually paid full time for what I do, because I do the grants. I do the Unicorn Homes. I&#039 ; m also the Gender Advocacy Project Chair. I&#039 ; m also--it, I never mentioned what I did prior to, well, while all that activation was going on, activism and advocacy work was going on, I actually worked a full-time job in telecommunications. I was a Level III Telecommunications Engineer. So, now I do all the IT work (laughs) at The Center as well. So, (both laugh), anything I can do for the community, you know, to make their life better. And, you know, I&#039 ; m, uh, want to, you know, the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, I feel like I&#039 ; m privileged to be able to work there, to be honest with you. And to be able to work in such a queer environment where I don&#039 ; t have to face what all my siblings face on a daily basis, you know? Because, despite all the work that we&#039 ; ve done, there&#039 ; s still a lot of stigmatization, and even hatred of the trans community. It&#039 ; s funny how, you know, one of the things, when you&#039 ; ve learned the history, it was, you know, of the entire gay rights movement. One of--they say that turning point was Stonewall, right? Well, the first person to actually throw something at the police was actually a transgender woman. And the other trans girls started in. And then if you know, I know people that were actually there and they told me that basically the lesbians then started joining in. And it was at the encouragement of the lesbians that the gay men finally stood up and started doing something against the police. So, if you look at that in its context who, it--that key moment who was the first trans woman? But in gay rights movements, we were left behind. We were taken out because we were so controversial and they wouldn&#039 ; t be able to get their rights. That&#039 ; s what we were told as trans women or transgender people. If we were in clumped in with them, you know? So, even though we were there at the beginning and even well before that, you know, a lot of--there, there were riots all over the country, you know? If you look at San Francisco, if you look at Miami, there were riots in gay bars where trans women--and trans women were the target, because a lot of the women, because they couldn&#039 ; t get jobs were street workers. So, therefore they&#039 ; re trying to pick up these supposedly &quot ; men&quot ; that dress as &quot ; women,&quot ; which at the time was against the law, working as a sex worker. So, it&#039 ; s because of that attraction that the trans women stood up and then the lesbians stood up with them, and then the gay guys stood up with them. And yet, here they are fighting for their rights and telling us to step back. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: You know, it just didn&#039 ; t make sense. And believe it or not, there&#039 ; s still quite a few lesbian--for instance, I&#039 ; m with another woman, I consider--I&#039 ; m sexually attracted to other women. I&#039 ; m romantically attracted to other women. Not so much with the guys. So, I consider myself basically a lesbian. There&#039 ; s a lot of lesbians out there that would tell me I&#039 ; m not a lesbian because I&#039 ; m a trans woman. These are what we would call TERFS: trans-exclusionary radical feminists. And they&#039 ; re out there all over the world, you know? One of the most famous and most recent news is J.K. Rowling. (laughs) Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, (laughs) despite all the love for, you know, the Harry Potter stories, I have to disagree with her principles. So, you know, so there&#039 ; s still--my point is despite all the fighting and activism and how far we&#039 ; ve actually come, we still have a huge way to go. So Friedman: That actually leads me to my next question. Um, do you think creating an inclusive society is achievable? Pronovost: (both laugh) Honestly, I hope so. You know, one of the latest endeavors that I&#039 ; ve looked into is--and I hope I&#039 ; m not premature in saying this. I&#039 ; ve been appointed, still yet to be confirmed--a Senior Commissioner for the City of--Senior Affairs Commissioner for the City of Vista. So, I&#039 ; m doing my part to hopefully make that true. I don&#039 ; t think it&#039 ; ll happen in my lifetime. I am much older than (laughs) most people nowadays. I am a senior, hence why I&#039 ; m on that (laughs) Senior Affairs Commission. Or want to be on it. So, and as of lately, there&#039 ; s more and more transgender people within the political scheme, trying to fight the battle from within, which will hopefully eventually bring that about. I mean, that&#039 ; s my ultimate goal. One of the reasons why I do stuff like this, this oral history presentation, or any of my activism--a lot of it is educational. I have a pet peeve that, you know, education brings in tolerance. Tolerance can achieve, hopefully, acceptance. And once acceptance is there, in a general population, then the next thing that that should beget is inclusion. And that&#039 ; s where me, that&#039 ; s my goal. (laughs) Since coming out and becoming an activist, that&#039 ; s--that&#039 ; s my life--that&#039 ; s my life goal, if you will. I know I probably will not see it in my lifetime within the next twenty or so years. I hope we still achieve, you know, steps moving in that direction as we go. One of the things that the Biden administration just recently did, was give, uh, make the announcement on Transgender Day of Visibility, which is March thirty-first. They made an announcement that they were going to allow an X marker on the passports for a third gender. They were going to make it much easier for a person like me who, you know, I was identified male at birth, but yet, I&#039 ; m a woman, make it much easier for somebody like me to change that name and gender marker on the passport. Another thing that they were planning on doing was one of the really bad areas that--and a lot of us had been fighting against this, the TSA--when you go through TSA screening in an airport and you have the x-ray, um, it&#039 ; s happened to me, you know? I identify as a woman, all my IDs are women and they see something down below. And they call you out, &quot ; Hey, we&#039 ; ve got an anomaly. You need to step aside over here and we need to get somebody to physically search you.&quot ; Friedman: That&#039 ; s awful. Pronovost: So, they&#039 ; re going to do away with that genderized screening. Which is an awesome thing. Finally, thank God. Because it&#039 ; s so embarrassing, you know, when that happens. And it happens to so many people, it&#039 ; s ridiculous what we have to endure and by being identified that way. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, that, that was a step in the right direction. They&#039 ; re looking at making the Affordable Care Act more inclusive for gender treatment, especially one of the things that we recently did as the Gender Advocacy Project, which is the program of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. I--one of my volunteers put together a list of all the state bills. For instance--what I mean by that is, last year in 2021, we had one hundred and ninety-one hate bills. Most of them were targeting transgender people. And in particular transgendered youth and their ability to receive transgender healthcare. Me, working on Trans Lifeline, know that most of those phone calls that I used to get in on Trans Lifeline are trans youth, anticipating and wanting to commit suicide. If they were accepted and were allowed to get their hormones, though, those numbers would drop drastically. And we have the statistics to back that up. But here, these states are wanting to outlaw and actually go even--go after doctors. And look at Texas. Texas wants to, you know, go after the parents saying that gender-affirmation healthcare for their child is actually child abuse, you know? So, one of the things the Biden administration said was they were going to fight, that they were going to make the Affordable Care Act to protect so that doctors don&#039 ; t have to report that to state agencies. Because they, you know, the state agencies, the state Texas--state of Texas, was forcing the doctors to violate people&#039 ; s HIPAA rights. I mean, they have no right to that information, but yet the state&#039 ; s forcing the doctors to turn that over. HIPAA&#039 ; s a national law, It&#039 ; s not a state law (laughs). They shouldn&#039 ; t be able to bypass federal laws. So, the Biden administration, uh, pledge to make it more difficult for states to be able to do stuff like that. You look at the &quot ; Don&#039 ; t Say Gay Bill&quot ; in Florida [SB 1834: Parental Rights in Education], you know? Ohio just came out with a bill last week--or just earlier this week, I forget which--that basically mimics the exact wording of Florida&#039 ; s bill. And no one, the state of Ohio and who they are and their history, that will pass, you know? So, we&#039 ; re going to have a couple of states that, you know, people are not allowed to say &quot ; You&#039 ; re gay.&quot ; There&#039 ; s another state in Utah. Utah wrote a bill that&#039 ; s very similar to Texas&#039 ; s bill about transgender healthcare, but it actually even encompasses adults. So, they want to make it illegal to be me (laughs), you know? And force--trying to force us to go back into the closet, so to speak. Because like I said, you know, one of the thing, one of their arguments is, &quot ; Oh, it&#039 ; s become a &#039 ; popular thing.&#039 ; &quot ; It&#039 ; s not popular. You just never knew what the real numbers were because we were all hiding away in the closet. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, you know. These are thing-- that&#039 ; s why I say we still have so far to go. This particular year though, in the first three months of this year, we have two hundred and thirty-eight hate bills. So, we even-- last year was a record year with all the hate bills, but in three months&#039 ; time, we have surpassed all of the bills from last year. So, they&#039 ; re--the thing that I&#039 ; m looking at is I&#039 ; m hoping this is like the last grasp (laughs) of them. (both laugh), you know? Their desperation before they fall down into the cracking crevice and go wherever. Friedman: I hope. Pronovost: (laughs) Go away. Yeah. Well, that&#039 ; s my hope (laughs). Because, you know, if you look at the statistics throughout the entire United States as a nation, over sixty percent of the nation is for transgendered people and having our rights or rights in particular of LGBT people. So, that&#039 ; s more than half the population. So eventually I know we will get there because that acceptance number and because, you know, I see the trends: tolerance, acceptance, then inclusion. I know we&#039 ; ll get there, but we still have so far to go. So, um, yeah. I hope that--I hope that answers your question (laughs). Friedman: Oh, absolutely. Kind of going back to politics, Like throughout your time, working on the East Coast and the West Coast, have you kind of noticed a difference in the politics working on both Coasts? Or, has it just kind of depended, um, kind of like the political shifts because you kind of were mostly on the on the East Coast? Um, is it kind of-- does it not really matter because you kind of just, you mostly on the East Coast for most of your life and--? Pronovost: Um, be honest with you, knowing, I don&#039 ; t think it&#039 ; s that much of a difference here, you know. Here at times, I think there&#039 ; s certain pockets you, that if you will, that are actually inclusive. When I look at the city of Oceanside, for instance, you know? I had mayor Esther Sanchez come out to Transgender Day of Visibility and she gave a speech about being visible and standing up for what&#039 ; s right, you know? And, so I see Oceanside as a pocket, but yet, when I look at a city like Vista where I actually live, you know? Vista is, you know, for lack of better terminology, very conservative. But then there&#039 ; s even worse conservative areas. Like, you start pushing up into Menifee or something like that, you know? You&#039 ; re looking at very, um, I don&#039 ; t like to use this because I don&#039 ; t like to use somebody&#039 ; s name, but it very much what most of us within the community would consider to be Trumpers or people that propagate hate. And I hate using that because I don&#039 ; t like to talk about individuals or refer to that. But that term, let&#039 ; s take it away from the person because that term existed, uh, &quot ; Trumping somebody&quot ; is overcoming is somebody. So that&#039 ; s what I mean by that terminology, more or less. Where they are totally conservative. And actually, even don&#039 ; t like people like me. You know, I&#039 ; ve had people up there in that city actually reach out to me saying they&#039 ; re having troubles with their school systems. Now here in California, for a transgender person and they should--a student should be able to change their name on all information except for their transcripts. That&#039 ; s the only thing that they can&#039 ; t change because that&#039 ; s a legal document, but they should be able to walk in without the school notifying the parents that, &quot ; Hey, I no longer want to be called Jane. I want to be called Max.&quot ; And the school legally is obligated to change their paperwork. Friedman: I see. Pronovost: But yet that&#039 ; s not happening in a city like that. I get phone calls quite often saying that the school is fighting the individual or the school has actually outed the individual to the parents, even. Because some of these schools aren&#039 ; t, you know, minors are even protected from this, the school is not supposed to out the youth. But yet here we have it happening, you know? And you know, it--so the hate and the stigmatization and the indignities and the discrimination still happens. No matter where you are and back East, I happen to live in a pocket--that Pioneer Valley group that I belong to. That&#039 ; s the whole Connecticut River Valley area throughout all of Western Mass. And that was very progressive. I mean, we--there&#039 ; s a town called Northampton there, which it is kind of, uh, was the gay city for the East Coast kind of equivalent to what San Francisco is to here. So, it&#039 ; s mainly a college town, but that made the entire whole (laughs), excuse me, for lack of better terminology, Pioneer Valley seemed very, uh, &quot ; granola-ish,&quot ; if you will. Originally Pioneer Valley, that whole Connecticut River Valley, those were the first communes back in the sixties. They started there and then moved out here to the West Coast. So, (laughs), very similar, you know, because even in Massachusetts, you still had your pockets of hate and bigotry and, so. It&#039 ; s very similar. The fight&#039 ; s the same, no matter where (laughs) I seem to go. But, you know, the goal is to get more cities, you know, to be like Oceanside, you know? Because Oceanside they&#039 ; ve raise, you know, they do raise a pride flag. Here in Vista, the pride flag that (laughs) that rainbow flag&#039 ; s never been raised here in the City of Vista. And so, you know, I&#039 ; m hoping that maybe sitting on one of the commissions, (laughs) I can change that (laughs) from within. And so, you know. Friedman: Well, I just have one more question. Pronovost: Okay. Friedman: Um, so you, you&#039 ; ve already talked about it. You have a wonderful year--a wonderful career in activism. What have you learned throughout your twelve years working in the trans and LGBT field of activism? Pronovost: Oh, (laughs), I&#039 ; ve learned so much it&#039 ; s hard to pinpoint any one thing. I think the one that weighs the heaviest on my heart, if you will, is probably--you know, one of the things that early on people did mention about the intersectionality of marginalizations and now that I&#039 ; ve had, you know, more than ten years at this, I actually get to see it. And that breaks my heart. How, you know, for instance, you know, I worked as a Telecom Engineer and I was the Senior Telecom Engineer for one of the world&#039 ; s largest telecommunications companies, Nippon Telephone and Telegraph [Nippon Telegraph and Telephone]. The first time I walked into an engineering meeting as me, as Leea, they looked at me like, you know, I-- &quot ; Where where&#039 ; s the donuts and coffee?&quot ; (laughs). That was the type of look I got. And, &quot ; Who the hell are you to be sitting here in this engineering meeting?&quot ; When, you know, before I used to lead the engineering meeting, you know? So, I know the difference between being a man in a man&#039 ; s field and being a woman trying to make it in a man&#039 ; s field. And, and so I don&#039 ; t--[connection froze]--People that I serve doing what I do and I look at, you know, a trans woman of color, and I see how much more discrimination that they actually face. Because of that intersectionality. Now you start adding more intersectionalities on top of that, such as being disabled or mentally disabled, you know? Disadvantaged. That--those numbers not only do--I mean, they grow exponentially and that&#039 ; s what weighs really heavy on my heart. And now I see that so much more easily, and makes me want to fight all that much or for them, you know? But also at the same time, you know, being--working at the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, and seeing other people fight for, you know, my rights as a trans woman, I want to say, you know, not for me, without me, you know? So that&#039 ; s one of--that ties well into the intersectionality thing. So, you know, I know I can&#039 ; t go out there. I can mention about it, but I can&#039 ; t go out there and say, &quot ; You know, we need more protections for trans women of color.&quot ; I can say that, but, you know, I don&#039 ; t experience that because I do have that privilege. I can talk from that privilege that we need to do something about it, you know? So, but I want those, I want to be able to empower those trans women of color to come forward and speak up for themselves. I want to, you know, empower other people to do what I do so that the fight you, I know I&#039 ; m not going to achieve my goal in my lifetime so that I know the legacy I leave behind is me helping them empower themselves so that they can even empower other people and move it forward. So, that&#039 ; s the main thing I&#039 ; ve learned is that we have to give people the power to have that voice. So, it isn&#039 ; t just about any one person, it&#039 ; s about empowering an entire demographic, if you will. Friedman: Well, thank you. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else that you would like to share today? Pronovost: Well, geez, we&#039 ; ve covered so much. (both laugh). I don&#039 ; t know. I don&#039 ; t think so. I think we pretty much covered it. It&#039 ; s a lot to chew and digest, if you will. So, I think, I think we&#039 ; ve done a good job. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So. Friedman: Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today, Leea. We are so happy to have you a part of this project. Pronovost: Yeah, my pleasure is so, um. I&#039 ; m just happy to be here. Like I said, that that&#039 ; s my pet peeve. If I can do something to--I&#039 ; m hoping this gets seen by as many people as it possibly can be. And it gives them the self-confidence in seeing somebody like me to empower themselves to find their voice. So. Friedman: Absolutely. Just continuing on with your, uh, with what you&#039 ; ve been doing from the start, basically ever since you started in 2007, 2008. Yeah. Pronovost: Yeah. Friedman: Yeah. Well, thank you again. Pronovost: You&#039 ; re very welcome. And it&#039 ; s my pleasure and thank you for having me. Friedman: Well, it&#039 ; s our pleasure (both laugh). https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en video Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=PronovostLeea_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-08.xml PronovostLeea_FriedmanJulia_2022-04-08.xml Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pronovost, Leea. Interview April 8, 2022 Description An account of the resource Leea Pronovost was a transgender activist and has advocated for transgender and LGBTQIA+ rights since coming out after a near-death experience in 2006. Pronovost began her work in activism in Massachusetts and partnered with a variety of organizations where she worked to help the queer community in areas such as LGBTQ+ education, housing, and hospital rights. She also worked for the Transgender Law Center and the Trans Lifeline. Most recently residing in Vista, CA, Pronovost was a staff member at the North Country LGBTQ+ Resource Center, where she worked as a case manager for Unicorn Homes, chaired the Gender Advocacy Project, and was a grant writer. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-18 Subject The topic of the resource LGBTQ+ activism LGBTQ+ rights Transgender people -- Civil rights Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-08 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Leea Pronovost Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julia Friedman Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) Springfield (Mass.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Leea Pronovost Activists and activism Community history History Department internship LGBTQIA+ experience Women's experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/4cb4071e4b68b0a4322bc9e8ac6d7228.pdf e64e54578e88c9f2be9c650b7c67c406 PDF Text Text LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 Julia Friedman: Okay. Today is Friday, April eighth, 2022 at 10:02 AM. I am Julia Friedman, a graduate student at California State University San Marcos. And today, I am interviewing Leea Pronovost for the University Library, Special Collections Oral History Project. Leea, thank you for being with me here today. Leea Pronovost: Oh, thank you for having me. Friedman: I would first like to start by asking when and where were you born? Pronovost: I was born in 1959, October second in Springfield, Massachusetts. Friedman: And can you please describe your childhood? Pronovost: (laughs) Well it wasn't exactly a very pleasant childhood, let's put it that way. One of my earliest memories was actually in 1963, I was four years old and at a Christmas party at my grandmother's house. And I saw my grandmother used to give us little money cards every Christmas--all of her grandchildren. And I noticed my name on an envelope my mother was holding. And I asked her what that word was in front of my name. My grandmother had written “Master.” And I didn't know that word--I didn't. So, she told me what it was, that it was a “Master” and what it stood for. And then I saw she had my little sister’s envelope in her hand and I asked her what was in front of my little sister’s name because of what's different than mine. And, uh, it was “Miss” and I asked her what that meant. And I said, I basically said, “There's something wrong here.” And I think, “I'm supposed to be more like the ‘Miss.’” (laughs) So after her explanation of which each one of those terms meant. As you can imagine that was 1963. So, (laughs) a whole different world. And my mother basically told me to shut up and never talk about it again. Which, you know, because we actually started getting into an argument about it in front of all my aunts and uncles and cousins. And so that's why she told me that. And honestly, I never did talk with her about it again. She actually died before I ever had a chance to, so. That's one of my earliest memories. After that it didn't get much better dealing with that issue. I mean, I was raised very strict Catholic. I was an alter boy. I, um, in my teen year, even, I spent a lot of time in a Jesuit monastery trying to pray that away if you will. And even thought about going into the seminary at one point and becoming a Catholic priest. But I didn't, I ended up joining the Navy. But that's (laughs) another story. So, the--and my father wasn't exactly the nicest of people. He was very much, as you can imagine, a bigoted person, against gays and people like me. I can remember being a kid and hearing about Christine Jorgensen [the first transgender woman in the United States to attain fame for receiving a sex reassignment surgery] and some of the remarks that my father talked to about when he referred to her and were--made me feel very terrible about myself because I knew that's how I felt. So, it wasn't an easy time, believe me. But that's pretty much my basic childhood. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 1 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 Friedman: Well thank you for sharing that, Leea. I'm sorry that you had such a difficult time growing up. Pronovost: Well, it was a totally different world compared to what we have now. Being transgender wasn’t--I didn't even, I don't think that word even existed until, you know, the 1990s. At some point, I mean, people like me, they used to call them “transsexuals,” which nowadays a lot of the trans community considers that a derogatory term, so. And--but that's the way our society was back then. I mean, I can even tell you that in 1977, I joined the Navy, um, give you--for instance. And when I joined the Navy on my ASVAB, I scored in the top five percent in the nation and they gave me two strikes for going into bootcamp, one strike for coming out of bootcamp. And I was placed into, um, nuclear engineering program to be a nuclear engineer on a sub, and all my life, probably about 1965, I actually started cross dressing, borrowing my sister's clothes, because it made me feel better. But yet there was a certain amount of shame with that. So--but that continued on even into the Navy. And I can remember being on a leave of absence, going to a bar dressed up, and coming out of the bar and being discovered by my commanding officer who then proceeded to file charges against me for crossdressing. And I ended up going through a court-marshal. So, push came to shove, they didn't do what they call a Section 8 on me. What they did do was give me a personal hardship discharge, because they basically said they didn't want “my kind” there. So, but it was very nerve-wracking. I can remember thinking--and I was living in Massachusetts at the time. I'm like thinking throughout the entire court-marshal worst case scenario, they Section 8 me, classify me as, you know, “mentally disturbed,” because of my crossdressing. And if I had went back to Massachusetts with that on my discharge papers, they could have (laughs) at actually put me into a mental institution back then. They still had governmental-run mental institutions in Massachusetts then, and they were not a very pretty sight. And even with people like me, they would actually--and gay people--they would actually lobotomize them trying to “fix them,” so to speak. So, (laugh) it wasn't, it was a totally different world. And I can, you know, they appreciate all the things that, people like me and the whole, uh, gay movement, gay rights and people that fought for and the seventies and even into the eighties and are still fighting today. And I'm one of them. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: Because no matter how far we've come, there's still much further to go. So. Friedman: I would actually like to switch gears if that's okay and talk about your years in activism. You've been an activist within the transgender community for twelve years. When did you first decide to turn to activism? Pronovost: Well, after I felt--after I came out to everybody, um--let me explain. In 2006, I had a near death experience that actually--because as I told you, you know, from 1963 on--I knew something was different. 2006, I had a near death experience that caused me to look at what my life was about, who I Transcribed by Julia Friedman 2 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 am, why I survived. And I came to the realization that I had to do something about this. And I started my transition soon as I recovered from that, which was probably about a year after that. I was well enough to actually--I didn't start hormones at that time, but I started looking at herbal supplements that would change my body. And I didn't come out to everybody. My current ex-wife at the time, I did come out to her about changing. And she was okay with it as long as I didn’t tell anybody. She carried--being a Latin person, carried a certain stigmatization around who I was. So, um, but anyway, it took me a couple of years to get on hormones and there's even stories there (laughs). I was actually denied my hormones at one point in time by my therapist, which really--I didn't understand why. I understood that that was the laws. And then, you know, I've heard other stories of other going to support groups and talking to a therapist and learning how to come out to basically the world. And it troubled me how difficult it was. And that whole path of trying to-- knowing deep down inside (laughs) all my life, that something was different, just never realized what it was and because I grew up before internet. And so, it the only place I could find information was in a library. And I was too ashamed to go into a library and pull a book about transsexuals (laughs), you know? Especially with my Catholic upbringing. So, it was very difficult and there were many times that throughout my life that I actually tried to commit suicide because of that. Because I thought I was alone. I thought I different. I never knew there was people like me. And then finding all those hurdles that I had to jump through. And then at the same time, you know, I started discovering that the state that I live in, Massachusetts, didn't even have any protections for transgender people. And if I tried to rent an apartment or buy a house, or, you know, get a job as a trans person, people could actually say “No,” because I was transgender. So, these things really disturbed me down to my core because, you know, it is who I am. It is my identity. So, that's what really got me to become more active and become an advocate and activist for the community because I wanted to make it better for the next people. I want to make it better for the next generation, so they don't have to struggle like I did. Not knowing who they were. I wanted to give the trans community that visibility so that they have role models that can even, you know, that they can idolize basically, and say, “I want be like that person.” Because as a youth, you know, I never had that. We, I mean, if you look in the sixties, seventies and eighties, the people that were portrayed as trans-- what we now call transgender or transsexuals-in those times, they were either the joke of the movie or they were, you know, the crazed maniac killer (laughs), you know? And I would look at them and I would say, “Oh, that's me when I grow up.” But yet, then I find out that they're either the joke or they're, you know, the crazed maniac killer. And I'm like, “Okay, well, that's not me.” So, I'm not like that, but you know, here I am, that's who I was. So, I wanted to be able to give, you know, the next generation, the next batch of people, because I--after going to a bunch of support groups for being transgender-- I realized that I wasn’t alone and there's a lot more people out there that are like me. And once I started doing my history research, you know, of transgender people--for instance, we've been around forever. I mean, I can tell you, in the Neolithic Age there was art drawings on cave walls of a third sex. And, you know, that date back to about 7,000 BC. So, (laughs) people like me, I've been around forever (laughs). It's just so something that hasn't been known, that's all, at least to the Western world. Because you take, you know--actually to be truthful with you, I identify as Two Spirit. The Indigenous people--not just here in North America--but Indigenous people all around the world have some of them have multiple genders. Two Spirit is an in North American Indigenous term that encompasses some tribes have as many as five genders, some three genders. Friedman: Wow. Pronovost: There's some tribes that don't even acknowledge gender. Men and women didn't have specific rules, if you will. I know of a tribe in Africa that, you know--I met a girl years ago, a trans girl Transcribed by Julia Friedman 3 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 from Africa. She had no concept of what he/she [pronouns] meant. They only had one pronoun for all people in her language. So, it was very difficult for her and even than her mother to understand that concept when they moved here to the United States. So. Friedman: Wow. That's really interesting. And I'm glad that you finally found a community when you first came out. When you first started, um, your working in activism, did you partner with any organizations during these early years and what type-- what type of activities did you participate in? Pronovost: Oh, I partnered with many organizations to be truthful with you. One of the first groups--the two first groups that I partnered with were a group called Tri Ess [an international support group for heterosexual cross-dressers and their partners and families.]. It was actually started in the 1950s by a woman named Virginia Prince. Basically, that was for, in her terms, heterosexual cross-dressers. Although once I became involved in the club, found out that there were a lot of transgender people within the organization that wanted to actually transition. Not that I wouldn't say myself, I would say that cross-dressers do fall under the trans umbrellas, so to speak. So, but, some, some of them don't agree with that, some of them do agree with it. Some of them think they're the only true trans people, when you really get down to the nitty gritty. One of the other main things was the transgender group of Pioneer Valley in Massachusetts. I--that was a peer support group and we were active in helping others find out that--because one of the toughest things that I found was in talking to new people as they come into the groups that they always thought they were alone as well. Because they never knew anybody that was like them. So, you know, that made such a difference for me in my life to realize all of a sudden, “Hey, they're like me and you know what, they're okay. That's an engineer, that's a medical doctor and that's a lawyer,” you know? “This person, you know, is, you know, just a normal average person living their life (laughs) so it's not so bad.” So, it made such a difference in the world for me that it, you know, it just, it seemed like common sense to move into it. And then I mean, I blossomed into a bunch of other organizations. I, uh, (laughs), I didn't start my transition into late in life, as you can imagine. Born in [19]59 and starting in 2007. It was forty-seven or forty-eight years old or something like that. But the thing is it, they, it--I wanted to do as much as I could for, or wherever. And so not being of (laughs)--I decided to help another group called Rainbow Elders. That was a nonprofit group run by, uh, not another nonprofit, that they did stuff for seniors. I can't remember their name off of top of my head, but it-- we used to do things like go out on panels and teach medical facilities. We would teach nursing homes. We would teach assisted living centers. We were teaching people in, um, it just reaching out to all sorts of businesses and stuff and doing panels and educating them about the LBGT experience by telling our stories. Then, you know, I joined another group over at UMass Amherst and, I--that was the Stonewall Speakers Bureau. And they were very active within the GSAs [Gay Straight Alliance]. So, I used to go out to all the GSAs, whether it was a grammar school, middle school, junior high school, high school, and sometimes even other colleges, asking us to come out and speak to gender-related studies and/or education of the faculty. So, and then I started--because the group--that Pioneer Valley group and the Tri Ess group that I first started with--one of them was up in New Hampshire, even though I lived in Massachusetts and the other one was in the Southern part of Massachusetts. So, I was having a drive, you know, anywhere from forty-five minutes to an hour, sometimes even two hours to go to a meeting. So, I decided to create my own peer support group, which I partnered with a hospital in Western Mass[achussets] in the county that I was in, Franklin County in Greenfield Mass. And they gave me a place to work with and a small budget. And I was able to start a group that actually still runs today, even though I'm here in California now. So, then because I also became part of what was known as the Massachusetts Transgendered Political Coalition, which in 2011, we ended up fighting for transgender Transcribed by Julia Friedman 4 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 rights. They made us actually take off on the bill by the time it--in order to get it out of committee, we had to take off transgender public accommodations rights. But it--bill did still encompass our rights to financial institutions, our rights for housing, our rights for, uh, financial housing and employment. Those were the three main rights that we were fighting for. Which it did end up getting passed in 2011 by the end of that year. Uh, they became-- (both talking at once) Friedman: (both talking at once)--Oh, congratulations. Pronovost: Yeah, thanks. But then again, in another organization that I became part of back in 2016, I helped to--we went back and lobbied or advocated for the state government to include transgender public accommodations, which would give us the--most people think, “Oh, that's the bathroom stuff and locker room stuff,” but there's so much more to it when you really sit down and think about it. The right to ride on a public transportation, the right to, (laughs), let's say I worked in a restaurant. If I punched out my time card to go out the back employee door and walk around to the front of that restaurant that hired me, they still have the right to refuse to serve me. Those are actually public accommodations. The right to be served in a hospital, you know? Many times throughout the years that I've worked, I've had myself and my friends have had discrimination by going to a hospital. I had one friend that they fell down on black ice and she got taken away on an ambulance and when they tore off or cut off her clothes, they found that she had a penis. And the doctor just looked at her and said--and then looked at the nurses and said, “Get that thing out of my hospital.” So, she--they called for another ambulance to take her to another hospital. Nowadays, because of that (unintelligible) she's permanently disabled, because she didn't receive the proper attention. And now, you know, we as taxpayers are paying to support her because of that discrimination. And so, things like that just didn't make any sense to me. So, you know, it made sense to go back and fight. So, we formed another organization called Freedom Massachusetts. And we fought for trans rights and we won them. But also, because of all that other activism, I had other organizations like PFLAG [organization dedicated to supporting the LGBTQ+ community; formally known as Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays] and, uh, PFLAG in two separate counties, both of them had asked me on to be on their board of directors. So, I ended up being on their board of directors at the same time about the--that same time I had many friends that I lost over the years in the support groups. And when I say I lost them, I mean that they took their own lives. And they're no longer here. And prior to my transition, I never knew anybody that committed suicide. Now, all of a sudden in the few short years that I was out as a trans person, I knew more than half a dozen. And I just felt that was wrong. So, I had heard about a organization called Trans Lifeline, and I actually became an operator for them. And because I, myself, (laughs), had, as I told you before, early in my life, I didn't know how to deal with this. I didn't know there were other people like me, there were a few times that I'd tried to commit suicide. So, and if I-- so if I could prevent one trans person from (laughs) stop—help-- stop them from committing suicide, then, you know, that would make me feel great. So, I spent a number of years as an operator, and then I actually became a team lead for a bunch of operators. Actually, even given peer support to the operators, because if you can imagine Trans Lifeline was an organization that was created by transgender people, for trans gender people. And the only criteria was that you had to be trans to be an operator. What helped was, though most of the operators were ones that had tried to commit suicide at one point or another. And sometimes when you're talking somebody down from a suicidal attempt, it brings you yourself into some pretty dark places. So, the operators would definitely need some, you know, self-care and guidance to get back to a point where they can do self-care even. And I know that I have many cases that led me into dark places that I didn't want to go, but yet, I went there to try and make sure, and it makes a difference. It really does, the peer thing, because I've never lost anyone when I was talking with them. When an individual Transcribed by Julia Friedman 5 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 that's on that brink or on that fence, or standing on that (laughs) that [precipice] to jump, if you will. Having somebody else talk to you, that's been there and been through what your experiencing, makes a huge difference. And they open up and listen. And then they also feel much easier to open up to you so that they can pour those feelings out and step off that [precipice]. So, that was really nice work for me. And then the next thing that I (laughs) became active in was the Transgender Law Center up in Oakland, California. I started volunteering for what they call the Detention Project. The Detention Project is basically--there's a lot of transgender people within our prison system that either wanted to transition or had already started their transition and they’re wondering, you know, “Here you have this trans woman sitting in a male jail, what are her rights?” Um, you know, and, “Can she have her name change? Can she get women's clothing? Can be isolated so she's protected away from the general population?” All of these things and Transgender Law Center addresses all of those issues. I was basically a research person for the lawyers and I would actually go and research each individual state's laws pertaining to the detention of transgender people, and then compose letters. And the lawyers would then approve or ask me, you know, change this, change that. And then we would issue the letters back to the inmates, so that they knew what their rights were and how to fund those rights. So, which meant a lot to me (laughs) the next step phase in my, uh, was actually working with the local because I was doing on the national level. And I started working with the local county jails and state prisons, and department of corrections. And I helped them to write--I helped both Massachusetts and Connecticut to write their policies on transgender people. And then--the same way with most of the county jail systems, I helped them to write--and I ran peer support groups within the county jails as well, so. Then I met a woman online (laughs) and moved out here to California (laughs). Well, it, it took a while. It took a few years, it-we had a Coast-to-Coast relationship, and we developed this great relationship. And we decided to take it to the next level and move in together. And I tried to get her to come out to Massachusetts, but one point she came out and it was minus--the high temperature was minus fifteen degrees. And this was the week between Christmas and New Year's. So, she was like, “No, no, no, no.” (both laugh) So, of course I've moved out here, and been living here ever since then. But before I even moved out, once we made that decision to move out here, I was like, “You know, I'm an--I'm an advocate and activist. What do you have out there that I can get involved with?” So, she introduced me to the North County--she was living in Oceanside at the time, and she introduced me to the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. So, I met Max Disposti, the Director and Founder of the place. And I was like, “What can I do to come?” (laughs) You know? “What can I do when I get out here?” (laughs) “Where can I go?” He's like, “Don't worry, we'll put you to work.” So, (both laugh) soon as I moved out here, they had an opening for the Unicorn Homes program, which being a case manager for that program, it was only fifteen hours a week. But, to start, and I was like, “Hey, it's along the lines,” because a lot of times running the peer support group in prisons, I was helping people do a lot of navigate social services that they would need getting out of jail. So, it wasn't too far of a fetch for me to be able to help people, you know, navigate applying for MediCal or, you know, Cal Fresh or being there just to listen and try to help homeless youth. And one of the things, even in Massachusetts, that one of my goals was eventually to create a transgender housing service. So, when I moved here and I had that opportunity to join something like this, I jumped on it. And Max liked what he saw in all the volunteer work that I did. So, he hired me for the position, even though there were a number of other candidates, I received the job. And I just started doing a whole bunch of free work for them (laughs). Because this is where my passion is. In the meantime, you know, I had been, you know, I still own property back East in Massachusetts, rental property. And, you know, I had a nice package of--so I wasn't worried about money or anything. So, why not work where my heart is? Nowadays though, I do a whole bunch of other things for The Center. I manage most of the grants for The Center. I also, now am, uh, Gender Advocacy Project Chair person for the Gender Advocacy Project, which puts on a number of events a year they do--we just recently had the Transgender Day of Visibility a couple weekends ago. Well, this weekend will be two weekends ago. Which was a wonderful event. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 6 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 We had, I don't know if I had to guess probably around 200, maybe 300 people come through and a bunch of booth with resources. And we had a great show. We had speakers and musicians and playing, and we had fun and games for the youth, and it was just a wonderful weekend. Wonderful day. But, so. Gender Advocacy Project also does Transgender Day of Remembrance. And, which is in November twentieth and a rather somber day for us because we're remembering those that we lost through transphobic violence. And the past few years have been actually kind of tough because the numbers have gone up astronomically in 2020, if I remember correctly, there was forty-one or forty-two, and in 2021, I believe there was fifty-six trans women. Now when I say these numbers, they seem like small numbers compared to a nationwide thing, but those are the ones that we actually know. Which, you know, a lot of times the gender is not known and, and they--or, and/or they misgender the person because the family doesn't want them to know about it. So, that number, even though the known cases keeps going up, I'm sure it's at least doubled if not tripled. So for-- for supposedly, according to the statistics, there's less than one percent of people are transgender throughout the nation. So, for that small amount of people to be targeted, the numbers of murders like that--violent murders--basically hate crimes, in my opinion, that's an astronomical amount. When you start looking at the statistics and the breakouts. Especially that most of those numbers, you know--I carry a certain amount of privilege because I'm a white transgender woman--or I appear to be white. I do have some American heritage, um, Indigenous blood in me. But that's something that people don't see because I appear to be white. So, therefore I've got a certain amount of privilege. I know that. When I look at a trans woman of color, those are the ones that are targeted when you look at those people that we honor year after year after year. It's usually Black or Brown people, and occasionally an Indigenous person in there. But, um, and sprinkled with a few Caucasian people. So, you know, it's so that when you look at that target population, that number, even it's more astronomical, when you break it down to what I call the “intersectionality of marginalizations.” So, you know, that's why that particular day is so important to me, even though it's a somber day. And I'm glad that we celebrate that and celebrate those lives that we lost. I'm hoping one day (laughs) and trying to do our best by fighting the hate. One of the grants that the North County LGBTQ Resource Center just got it is--we got a bunch of money into actually--and that's what the grant is called, “Fight the Hate.” (laughs) So, you know, it's an honor for me to be doing this work and nowadays I'm actually paid full time for what I do, because I do the grants. I do the Unicorn Homes. I'm also the Gender Advocacy Project Chair. I'm also--it, I never mentioned what I did prior to, well, while all that activation was going on, activism and advocacy work was going on, I actually worked a full-time job in telecommunications. I was a Level III Telecommunications Engineer. So, now I do all the IT work (laughs) at The Center as well. So, (both laugh), anything I can do for the community, you know, to make their life better. And, you know, I'm, uh, want to, you know, the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, I feel like I'm privileged to be able to work there, to be honest with you. And to be able to work in such a queer environment where I don't have to face what all my siblings face on a daily basis, you know? Because, despite all the work that we've done, there's still a lot of stigmatization, and even hatred of the trans community. It’s funny how, you know, one of the things, when you've learned the history, it was, you know, of the entire gay rights movement. One of--they say that turning point was Stonewall, right? Well, the first person to actually throw something at the police was actually a transgender woman. And the other trans girls started in. And then if you know, I know people that were actually there and they told me that basically the lesbians then started joining in. And it was at the encouragement of the lesbians that the gay men finally stood up and started doing something against the police. So, if you look at that in its context who, it--that key moment who was the first trans woman? But in gay rights movements, we were left behind. We were taken out because we were so controversial and they wouldn't be able to get their rights. That's what we were told as trans women or transgender people. If we were in clumped in with them, you know? So, even though we were there at the beginning and even well before that, you know, a lot of--there, there were riots all over the country, you Transcribed by Julia Friedman 7 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 know? If you look at San Francisco, if you look at Miami, there were riots in gay bars where trans women--and trans women were the target, because a lot of the women, because they couldn't get jobs were street workers. So, therefore they're trying to pick up these supposedly “men” that dress as “women,” which at the time was against the law, working as a sex worker. So, it's because of that attraction that the trans women stood up and then the lesbians stood up with them, and then the gay guys stood up with them. And yet, here they are fighting for their rights and telling us to step back. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: You know, it just didn't make sense. And believe it or not, there's still quite a few lesbian--for instance, I'm with another woman, I consider--I'm sexually attracted to other women. I'm romantically attracted to other women. Not so much with the guys. So, I consider myself basically a lesbian. There's a lot of lesbians out there that would tell me I'm not a lesbian because I'm a trans woman. These are what we would call TERFS: trans-exclusionary radical feminists. And they're out there all over the world, you know? One of the most famous and most recent news is J.K. Rowling. (laughs) Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, (laughs) despite all the love for, you know, the Harry Potter stories, I have to disagree with her principles. So, you know, so there's still--my point is despite all the fighting and activism and how far we've actually come, we still have a huge way to go. So Friedman: That actually leads me to my next question. Um, do you think creating an inclusive society is achievable? Pronovost: (both laugh) Honestly, I hope so. You know, one of the latest endeavors that I've looked into is--and I hope I'm not premature in saying this. I've been appointed, still yet to be confirmed--a Senior Commissioner for the City of--Senior Affairs Commissioner for the City of Vista. So, I'm doing my part to hopefully make that true. I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime. I am much older than (laughs) most people nowadays. I am a senior, hence why I'm on that (laughs) Senior Affairs Commission. Or want to be on it. So, and as of lately, there's more and more transgender people within the political scheme, trying to fight the battle from within, which will hopefully eventually bring that about. I mean, that's my ultimate goal. One of the reasons why I do stuff like this, this oral history presentation, or any of my activism--a lot of it is educational. I have a pet peeve that, you know, education brings in tolerance. Tolerance can achieve, hopefully, acceptance. And once acceptance is there, in a general population, then the next thing that that should beget is inclusion. And that's where me, that's my goal. (laughs) Since coming out and becoming an activist, that's--that's my life--that's my life goal, if you will. I know I probably will not see it in my lifetime within the next twenty or so years. I hope we still achieve, you know, steps moving in that direction as we go. One of the things that the Biden administration just recently did, was give, uh, make the announcement on Transgender Day of Visibility, which is March thirty-first. They made an announcement that they were going to allow an X marker on the passports for Transcribed by Julia Friedman 8 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 a third gender. They were going to make it much easier for a person like me who, you know, I was identified male at birth, but yet, I'm a woman, make it much easier for somebody like me to change that name and gender marker on the passport. Another thing that they were planning on doing was one of the really bad areas that--and a lot of us had been fighting against this, the TSA--when you go through TSA screening in an airport and you have the x-ray, um, it's happened to me, you know? I identify as a woman, all my IDs are women and they see something down below. And they call you out, “Hey, we've got an anomaly. You need to step aside over here and we need to get somebody to physically search you.” Friedman: That’s awful. Pronovost: So, they're going to do away with that genderized screening. Which is an awesome thing. Finally, thank God. Because it's so embarrassing, you know, when that happens. And it happens to so many people, it's ridiculous what we have to endure and by being identified that way. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, that, that was a step in the right direction. They’re looking at making the Affordable Care Act more inclusive for gender treatment, especially one of the things that we recently did as the Gender Advocacy Project, which is the program of the North County LGBTQ Resource Center. I--one of my volunteers put together a list of all the state bills. For instance--what I mean by that is, last year in 2021, we had one hundred and ninety-one hate bills. Most of them were targeting transgender people. And in particular transgendered youth and their ability to receive transgender healthcare. Me, working on Trans Lifeline, know that most of those phone calls that I used to get in on Trans Lifeline are trans youth, anticipating and wanting to commit suicide. If they were accepted and were allowed to get their hormones, though, those numbers would drop drastically. And we have the statistics to back that up. But here, these states are wanting to outlaw and actually go even--go after doctors. And look at Texas. Texas wants to, you know, go after the parents saying that gender-affirmation healthcare for their child is actually child abuse, you know? So, one of the things the Biden administration said was they were going to fight, that they were going to make the Affordable Care Act to protect so that doctors don't have to report that to state agencies. Because they, you know, the state agencies, the state Texas--state of Texas, was forcing the doctors to violate people's HIPAA rights. I mean, they have no right to that information, but yet the state's forcing the doctors to turn that over. HIPAA's a national law, It's not a state law (laughs). They shouldn't be able to bypass federal laws. So, the Biden administration, uh, pledge to make it more difficult for states to be able to do stuff like that. You look at the “Don't Say Gay Bill” in Florida [SB 1834: Parental Rights in Education], you know? Ohio just came out with a bill last week--or just earlier this week, I forget which--that basically mimics the exact wording of Florida's bill. And no one, the state of Ohio and who they are and their history, that will pass, you know? So, we're going to have a couple of states that, you know, people are not allowed to say “You're gay.” There's another state in Utah. Utah wrote a bill that's very similar to Texas's bill about transgender healthcare, but it actually even encompasses adults. So, they want to make it illegal to be me (laughs), you know? And force--trying to force us to go back into the closet, so to speak. Because like I said, you know, one of the thing, one of their arguments is, “Oh, it's become a ‘popular thing.’” It's not popular. You just never knew what the real numbers were because we were all hiding away in the closet. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 9 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So, you know. These are thing-- that's why I say we still have so far to go. This particular year though, in the first three months of this year, we have two hundred and thirty-eight hate bills. So, we even-- last year was a record year with all the hate bills, but in three months’ time, we have surpassed all of the bills from last year. So, they're--the thing that I'm looking at is I'm hoping this is like the last grasp (laughs) of them. (both laugh), you know? Their desperation before they fall down into the cracking crevice and go wherever. Friedman: I hope. Pronovost: (laughs) Go away. Yeah. Well, that's my hope (laughs). Because, you know, if you look at the statistics throughout the entire United States as a nation, over sixty percent of the nation is for transgendered people and having our rights or rights in particular of LGBT people. So, that's more than half the population. So eventually I know we will get there because that acceptance number and because, you know, I see the trends: tolerance, acceptance, then inclusion. I know we'll get there, but we still have so far to go. So, um, yeah. I hope that--I hope that answers your question (laughs). Friedman: Oh, absolutely. Kind of going back to politics, Like throughout your time, working on the East Coast and the West Coast, have you kind of noticed a difference in the politics working on both Coasts? Or, has it just kind of depended, um, kind of like the political shifts because you kind of were mostly on the on the East Coast? Um, is it kind of-- does it not really matter because you kind of just, you mostly on the East Coast for most of your life and--? Pronovost: Um, be honest with you, knowing, I don't think it's that much of a difference here, you know. Here at times, I think there's certain pockets you, that if you will, that are actually inclusive. When I look at the city of Oceanside, for instance, you know? I had mayor Esther Sanchez come out to Transgender Day of Visibility and she gave a speech about being visible and standing up for what's right, you know? And, so I see Oceanside as a pocket, but yet, when I look at a city like Vista where I actually live, you know? Vista is, you know, for lack of better terminology, very conservative. But then there's even worse conservative areas. Like, you start pushing up into Menifee or something like that, you know? You're looking at very, um, I don't like to use this because I don't like to use somebody's name, but it very much what most of us within the community would consider to be Trumpers or people that propagate hate. And I hate using that because I don't like to talk about individuals or refer to that. But that term, let's take it away from the person because that term existed, uh, “Trumping somebody” is overcoming is somebody. So that's what I mean by that terminology, more or less. Where they are totally conservative. And actually, even don't like people like me. You know, I've had people up there in that city actually reach out to me saying they're having troubles with their school systems. Now here in California, for a transgender person and they should--a student should be able to change their name on all information except for their transcripts. That's the only thing that they can't change because that's a legal document, Transcribed by Julia Friedman 10 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 but they should be able to walk in without the school notifying the parents that, “Hey, I no longer want to be called Jane. I want to be called Max.” And the school legally is obligated to change their paperwork. Friedman: I see. Pronovost: But yet that's not happening in a city like that. I get phone calls quite often saying that the school is fighting the individual or the school has actually outed the individual to the parents, even. Because some of these schools aren't, you know, minors are even protected from this, the school is not supposed to out the youth. But yet here we have it happening, you know? And you know, it--so the hate and the stigmatization and the indignities and the discrimination still happens. No matter where you are and back East, I happen to live in a pocket--that Pioneer Valley group that I belong to. That's the whole Connecticut River Valley area throughout all of Western Mass. And that was very progressive. I mean, we--there's a town called Northampton there, which it is kind of, uh, was the gay city for the East Coast kind of equivalent to what San Francisco is to here. So, it's mainly a college town, but that made the entire whole (laughs), excuse me, for lack of better terminology, Pioneer Valley seemed very, uh, “granola-ish,” if you will. Originally Pioneer Valley, that whole Connecticut River Valley, those were the first communes back in the sixties. They started there and then moved out here to the West Coast. So, (laughs), very similar, you know, because even in Massachusetts, you still had your pockets of hate and bigotry and, so. It's very similar. The fight's the same, no matter where (laughs) I seem to go. But, you know, the goal is to get more cities, you know, to be like Oceanside, you know? Because Oceanside they've raise, you know, they do raise a pride flag. Here in Vista, the pride flag that (laughs) that rainbow flag's never been raised here in the City of Vista. And so, you know, I'm hoping that maybe sitting on one of the commissions, (laughs) I can change that (laughs) from within. And so, you know. Friedman: Well, I just have one more question. Pronovost: Okay. Friedman: Um, so you, you've already talked about it. You have a wonderful year--a wonderful career in activism. What have you learned throughout your twelve years working in the trans and LGBT field of activism? Pronovost: Oh, (laughs), I've learned so much it's hard to pinpoint any one thing. I think the one that weighs the heaviest on my heart, if you will, is probably--you know, one of the things that early on people did mention about the intersectionality of marginalizations and now that I've had, you know, more than ten years at this, I actually get to see it. And that breaks my heart. How, you know, for instance, you know, I worked as a Telecom Engineer and I was the Senior Telecom Engineer for one of the world's largest telecommunications companies, Nippon Telephone and Telegraph [Nippon Telegraph and Telephone]. The first time I walked into an engineering meeting as me, as Leea, they looked at me like, you know, I-- “Where where's the donuts and coffee?” (laughs). That was the type of look I got. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 11 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 And, “Who the hell are you to be sitting here in this engineering meeting?” When, you know, before I used to lead the engineering meeting, you know? So, I know the difference between being a man in a man's field and being a woman trying to make it in a man's field. And, and so I don't—[connection froze]—People that I serve doing what I do and I look at, you know, a trans woman of color, and I see how much more discrimination that they actually face. Because of that intersectionality. Now you start adding more intersectionalities on top of that, such as being disabled or mentally disabled, you know? Disadvantaged. That--those numbers not only do--I mean, they grow exponentially and that's what weighs really heavy on my heart. And now I see that so much more easily, and makes me want to fight all that much or for them, you know? But also at the same time, you know, being--working at the North County LGBTQ Resource Center, and seeing other people fight for, you know, my rights as a trans woman, I want to say, you know, not for me, without me, you know? So that's one of--that ties well into the intersectionality thing. So, you know, I know I can't go out there. I can mention about it, but I can't go out there and say, “You know, we need more protections for trans women of color.” I can say that, but, you know, I don't experience that because I do have that privilege. I can talk from that privilege that we need to do something about it, you know? So, but I want those, I want to be able to empower those trans women of color to come forward and speak up for themselves. I want to, you know, empower other people to do what I do so that the fight you, I know I'm not going to achieve my goal in my lifetime so that I know the legacy I leave behind is me helping them empower themselves so that they can even empower other people and move it forward. So, that's the main thing I've learned is that we have to give people the power to have that voice. So, it isn't just about any one person, it's about empowering an entire demographic, if you will. Friedman: Well, thank you. Is there anything else I should have asked or anything else that you would like to share today? Pronovost: Well, geez, we've covered so much. (both laugh). I don't know. I don't think so. I think we pretty much covered it. It's a lot to chew and digest, if you will. So, I think, I think we've done a good job. Friedman: Yeah. Pronovost: So. Friedman: Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today, Leea. We are so happy to have you a part of this project. Pronovost: Yeah, my pleasure is so, um. I'm just happy to be here. Like I said, that that's my pet peeve. If I can do something to--I'm hoping this gets seen by as many people as it possibly can be. And it gives them the self-confidence in seeing somebody like me to empower themselves to find their voice. So. Transcribed by Julia Friedman 12 2022-11-08 �LEEA PRONOVOST TRANSCRIPT, INTERVIEW 2022-04-08 Friedman: Absolutely. Just continuing on with your, uh, with what you've been doing from the start, basically ever since you started in 2007, 2008. Yeah. Pronovost: Yeah. Friedman: Yeah. Well, thank you again. Pronovost: You're very welcome. And it's my pleasure and thank you for having me. Friedman: Well, it's our pleasure (both laugh). Transcribed by Julia Friedman 13 2022-11-08 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Pronovost, Leea. Interview transcript. April 8, 2022. Description An account of the resource Leea Pronovost was a transgender activist and has advocated for transgender and LGBTQIA+ rights since coming out after a near-death experience in 2006. Pronovost began her work in activism in Massachusetts and partnered with a variety of organizations where she worked to help the queer community in areas such as LGBTQ+ education, housing, and hospital rights. She also worked for the Transgender Law Center and the Trans Lifeline. Most recently residing in Vista, CA, Pronovost was a staff member at the North Country LGBTQ+ Resource Center, where she worked as a case manager for Unicorn Homes, chaired the Gender Advocacy Project, and was a grant writer. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Leea Pronovost Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julia Friedman Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2022-04-08 Subject The topic of the resource LGBTQ+ issues LGBTQ+ rights Transgender people -- Civil rights Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Diego (Calif.) Springfield (Mass.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Leea Pronovost License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives@csusm.edu if you have questions regarding usage of this oral history. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection. 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