1 10 4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sean Visintainer Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Glen Brodowsky OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BrodowskyGlen_VisintainerSean_2024-06-14.xml OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Brodowsky, Glen. Interview June 14th, 2024. SC027-090 00:00:00 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library oral history collection CSUSM csusm CSUSM ; marketing department ; intercultural marketing ; Alexander Gonzalez, Karen Haynes, Ellen Neufeldt ; Craven Hall/Administrative Building ; Jewish Faculty and Staff Association ; cross-cultural marketing ; Faculty Senate Glen Brodowsky Sean Visintainer Sound BrodowskyGlen_VisintainerSean_2024-06-14.m4a 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/2a4f9d867903cbe2aba28d8139361fc2.m4a Other audio English 0 Intorduction Oral history interview of Dr. Glen Brodowsky, June 14th, 2024, by Sean Visintainer, Head of Special Collections, University Library, California State University San Marcos. 0 33 Background and Education Dr. Brodowsky discusses how his educational background including his fluency in Mandarin and how he found himself working in higher education. Chinese studies ; Higher education ; Marketing ; CSUSM ; University of Buffalo 0 203 First Impressions of Cal State San Marcos Brodowsky talks about his first impressions of CSUSM during his interview process. The campus was built on an old poultry farm and Hollandia dairy was nearby so the campus felt very rural. Prohoroff Poultry farm ; CSUSM ; Campus architecture 0 637 Designing Cal State San Marcos' Expansion Brodowsky discusses his work on the design committee for expanding CSUSM. CSUSM ; Markstein Hall ; Construction ; design ; architecture 0 1269 How CSUSM Differed from other Colleges Brodowsky talks about how Cal State San Marcos' culture and attitude towards faculty participation differed from some other, older and well established colleges. Faculty participation ; Committees ; education ; Marketing 0 1769 Changing Policies at CSUSM Brodowsky discusses his efforts at changing policies at Cal State San Marcos and the effects that those changes had on the school. Policy ; education ; CSUSM ; standards 0 2110 Living on Campus Brodowsky talks about his time living in the dorms at CSUSM while he was a full professor. Dorm life ; education ; student life ; CSUSM 0 2328 Jewish Associations on Campus Brodowsky talks about his involvement with the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association as well as other Jewish association on campus. Chabad ; Hillel ; Jewish Faculty Association ; Religion ; Outreach 0 2679 Navigating New University Administrations Brodowsky explains his thoughts on working with different University Presidents over the course of his career at CSUSM and how he navigated professional relationships with administrations, faculty, and staff. University Presidents ; Alex Gonzalex ; Karen Haynes ; Ellen Neufeldt 0 3424 Teaching Internationally Brodowsky discusses his time teaching internationally in Copenhagen, Ecuador, Shanghai, and Taiwan. Fulbright ; international teaching ; Ecuador ; Copenhagen ; Shanghai ; Taiwan 0 3919 Cross-cultural Marketing and Research Interests Brodowsky talks about his research interests in international marketing as well as his thought on how to make products successful in different cultures. Taiwan ; China ; United States ; Marketing ; Internationality 0 4912 Teaching is Performing Brodowsky discusses his career as a teacher and how he felt that teaching was his chance to express himself as a performer to get students interested in Marketing. education ; Marketing ; acting 0 Oral history Interview discusses Brodowsky’s career at CSUSM, starting with his journey into academia and his experience during the early years of the university, the campus, his work in development of policy and initiatives, as well as marketing, including the campus logo. Interview also discusses Brodowsky’s work in service at the university, his relationship with past university presidents, intercultural and cross-cultural marketing, his approach to teaching both at CSUSM and abroad at Brodowsky’s visiting professorships, the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association and the campus Jewish community, and his past year as Faculty Senate Chair. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:04.794 --> 00:00:17.635 This is Sean Visintainer with California State University San Marcos. Today is June 14th, 2024, and I'm interviewing Dr. Glen Brodowsky, professor of Marketing. Dr. Brodowsky, thank you for joining us today. 00:00:17.635 --> 00:00:19.394 It's a pleasure to be here. 00:00:19.394 --> 00:00:33.914 Well, thank you. And, I wanted to start off just talking about the university, kind of the early days when you came to the university and so I wanted to ask you about your journey into higher education, and just how you decided to become a professor. 00:00:33.914 --> 00:02:45.235 Well, I, my original plan was to--I was a,-- majored in Chinese studies and I spoke Mandarin early into my twenties, and I thought I'd have a phenomenal career in international business and then retire into higher education. Well, it didn't work out quite that way. It came out to be the reverse where I had--couldn't find a, a business career. I stayed on and did my PhD at University of Buffalo, and it was a bad market year, and there were no jobs. I didn't get a job. And then I got this phone call in the spring, well, after the market was over from then, the dean of a place called Cal State San Marcos. And I said, are you still on the record? Well, maybe, yeah, maybe. would you be able to come out for an interview next week? Let me check my calendar. Yeah, I think I could come. So I came out here on April 15th, tax day of 1996, desperate for a job but didn't wanna let on. And by the end of the day, I had the job. And so here I was coming and they were apologizing, saying, the salary is not very high. And, I said, listen, you'll pay me to come here and teach, where do I sign? and I was very, very grateful to have that opportunity, 'cause it wasn't guaranteed at that time. And, things happened during my first year. The death of my partner happened the first year. Lots of crazy stuff. Moving across country, finishing a PhD program, defending, taking care of a cancer patient, burying him all within one year. That was my first year here, but the people who were around me, in the college of business, were very, very supportive and were with me throughout that whole process. And you don't forget things like that. I mean, I don't know if I would've been treated that well anywhere else in the world. So, I was very grateful to be here, have been grateful to be here for many years, and I'm grateful that I've had 28 wonderful years here at the Cal State San Marcos. 00:02:45.235 --> 00:02:50.104 Yeah. So, you said that you were kind of headhunted, they found you and contacted you. 00:02:50.104 --> 00:03:20.794 Well, they found me, I guess my advisor sent out a bunch of letters and, and they called me and said, oh, sure. I saying, where's that? I've never heard of it. I mean, it was, who knew? But then I said, near San Diego. And I thought, well, that doesn't sound half bad, you know? 'cause 'cause I was in Buffalo at the time, and it was winter. So, it sounded very attractive. And then, so that was it. And that, the rest is, -- 28 years later here I sit on a very, very different campus than I started out on. 00:03:20.794 --> 00:03:27.715 Yeah. And I wanted to ask you about the campus, but I guess I wanted to ask you first, like, what were your first impressions when you visited for that interview? 00:03:27.715 --> 00:04:20.995 Well, they brought me in the back way of what was then Craven Hall, and now the Administrator Building. They brought me through this blue hallway, through this labyrinth. I didn't know where they were taking me into the bowels of this building. I thought, there were lots of staircases, very few buildings, or three buildings, like 10 staircases. And I thought, what is, this does not look like a college campus. What am I, what am I getting myself into? didn't seem like much, but they had this diorama and say, in 2025, this is what we're gonna look like. And we don't look quite exactly like that. But we've grown certainly to that level. So, but it seemed kind of a bit of a pipe dream at the time because it was so new and lots of dirt and lots of staircases and, and on a windy day, you can tell that we were built on a chicken ranch. 00:04:20.995 --> 00:04:23.274 Yeah. Yeah. How could you tell? 00:04:23.274 --> 00:04:26.444 Well, the wind would, carry a certain . 00:04:26.444 --> 00:04:28.285 So, so the ranch was still in existence? 00:04:28.285 --> 00:04:48.634 Very fresh, very fresh in our minds. Yeah. There was a Hollandia dairy, which was across the freeway. So, this was the country. There was nothing here. There's very, very-- that whole shopping center was--none of the apartments were there, nothing. It was just really very open. 00:04:48.634 --> 00:04:52.605 Yeah. Was how, how big was San Marcos at the time? 00:04:52.605 --> 00:05:19.105 I think it was about 40,000 people at the time. It was very small. I chose to live in San Marcos for the first, I think, until 2003. So seven years. I lived on San Marcos Boulevard. I had an apartment at the Benchmark Apartments, and then I bought my first condor across the street, which is, the ones right next to the Home Depot, which didn't exist when I got here. So, the Home Depot, that is. 00:05:19.105 --> 00:05:21.435 And I'm sure traffic wasn't as bad on San Marcos (inaudible). 00:05:21.435 --> 00:05:41.504 Well, San Marcos was, the only thing that was bad was that, that bridge getting onto the campus was only two lanes. and so it could take a good 20 minutes to get onto and off campus, even though we were small. And then it took several years to build that bridge. So it was always tricky getting onto and off of our campus. 00:05:41.504 --> 00:05:45.365 And where did you start teaching? Like what, what building were you in? 00:05:45.365 --> 00:06:02.845 Well, my office was on the second floor of what was then Craven Hall for 10 years in a windowless office across from the men's room and my first class was in, what is, I guess it's ACD on the second floor. 00:06:02.845 --> 00:06:08.884 Was the, was the College of Business, was it all located? 00:06:08.884 --> 00:06:13.475 We were all located on the second floor of Craven Hall. 00:06:13.475 --> 00:06:19.754 Okay. Interesting. Interesting. So how have you seen the campus change over the years? 00:06:19.754 --> 00:07:28.875 Well, I mean, the first thing that came up was University Hall. Which we apparently had the option on, and we passed on. And, so that came up. And then I remember saying to President Gonzalez, to whom I was a consultant on a few projects, when we built the track and field of the Mangrum track--Mrs. Mangrum, her family did that for us-- He said, we have a track. We look like a real campus now. And I said to him, Alex, build me a library, and then we can talk. Because at that time, the library was also located in Craven Hall. And that was on the third and fourth floors. And it was this black area. It was--this walls were black and there were pipes, and it was weird. We were all in that same building. It's kind of where the Cougar Central used to be the library. And then, I ran into Alex Gonzalez a number of years later at what was the new Ralph's across the way. And we were looking out across the campus, and here was Kellogg Library. And I said, Alex, you made good on the promise. you've done good. You built me a library. Now we're a real campus. 00:07:28.875 --> 00:07:29.274 Yeah. 00:07:29.274 --> 00:07:31.644 I didn't, oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. 00:07:31.644 --> 00:08:25.035 And, and really, the whole campus, really center of the campus moved here upon the opening this plaza out here, because we used to be centered at the dome. The dome was the major gathering place in the early years. This was all just, nothing. It was an empty lot. So, you saw this huge migration of the campus towards this, what is now the center of the campus, which is kind of this Kellogg terrace. And, and then later on came, the Student Union and the, the new building for SBSB and the new Science (Hall) too. that all came much later on, but the ca--and now with the housing going down the hill, it's like what used to be the center of campus is like this little outpost up there, which is the dome. Which is where the Bookstore is. But no, you don't see much going on there. 00:08:25.035 --> 00:08:29.584 Yeah. So what was, you said it was kind of the center of campus and activity. What was happening there? 00:08:29.584 --> 00:08:49.553 Well we would have lunch there. We had, we had meetings there, we had events there. the (Academic) Senate used to meet in that building. So that was kind of the building that was, the facility, and now it's kind of, it's just kind of, kind of an appendage. It, it really has lost its centrality to the campus. 00:08:49.553 --> 00:08:57.085 Yeah. Yeah. You also mentioned the University Hall. You mentioned it was passed on, and I was just curious what you meant by that. 00:08:57.085 --> 00:09:20.544 The dean at the time, who was my very, very good friend, who was a mentor of mine, who lives in Chicago as well, she's 85, and she's amazing, was the dean at the time. And she didn't really like what she saw in the plans for the building, how it was set up. So she decided that we would wait for something to come, the next building phase. So we stayed in Craven Hall until 2006. 00:09:20.544 --> 00:09:21.040 Wow. 00:09:21.040 --> 00:10:37.764 So, and we're very pleased with Markstein Hall. I think it's a great facility and, world class in terms of classrooms. I was on the, on the committee that designed the building. So I remember taking the architects around to U Hall (University Hall) and other places saying, see, this classroom, don't do this. don't set it up like this. This does not work. This is too wide and too shallow, or, and then I remember, we had all these vendors sending us chairs, and I was having a butt, testing, lab in the buildings, because I short people and tall people and fat people and thin people trying out all these different chairs to go into the different rooms in Markstein. So, there's things that I could look at that are designed into that building and--said, that was my idea to that. And it was nice. Like, we have these benches that are throughout the second and third floors, along the hallways where the students could actually sit outside the classroom while they're waiting, because when we were in the Administrative Building, there's no place for students to sit. So they'd sit on the floor, it's like, we could put a bench there. It would be kind of a nice thing. Welcoming. 00:10:37.764 --> 00:10:41.595 Yeah. How, how long was that process of, uh. 00:10:41.595 --> 00:10:42.315 The planning. 00:10:42.315 --> 00:10:46.174 The planning, and especially like the involvement of the committee with the architecture? 00:10:46.174 --> 00:11:51.205 I think we started planning probably around 2002, 2003. It was a multi-year plan, and then we planned, the office space and how we'd maximize the number of windows. And if you go into that building, you'll notice that, on--it's actually two buildings. It's a class from one, which is three stories and the office one, which is four. And the hallways are quite wide on one side, but on the office area, it's like you feel like you're inside of a train, there's narrow, narrow passageways. And that was done so that we could maximize square footage for offices and classrooms. The state allocates a certain number of square feet, no matter what you--how you use them. And so, people will sit at the halls, feel very narrow and closed in. And warren like, but that's because we've maximized the number of window offices. So, we just had to create it because you, there, there are mandates on how much space a faculty office can have and how much, classroom space has to be available relative to office space. 00:11:51.205 --> 00:12:03.065 Okay. That's really interesting. And I think it probably explains why a lot of academic buildings look the way that they do. Huh. Very interesting. Thank you. Who was involved on that, committee. 00:12:03.065 --> 00:12:50.965 At the time? This man named Russ Decker and Diane Malone. They were from, Building Planning and Design, BPD, and then the Dean, and Regina Eisenbach was on the committee, and Ben Cherry was on the committee, and a couple of other people. But that's off the top of my head--it was a real fun committee to be on. And one of the arguments is that I really want to-- I, I'm looking at these windows in your door. And I really wanted that in the building because I thought it would be nice for you to look out. And I see that most people cover those, and they don't like them. They feel it's a violation of privacy. But I just thought--I liked that idea. That was one I was shot down on. I'm still, annoyed about that because I really wanted one of those. 00:12:50.965 --> 00:13:00.924 Well, so you ran into, you ran into headwinds there. What were--you mentioned that the seat testing was one of the things that you were involved in. What were some of the other things that you had an impact on the design? 00:13:00.924 --> 00:14:41.485 You know, one of the things I hate in academic buildings, or if you go to other campuses, is students stick things on walls and it ruins the paint, and it just, it looks tacky. So, there, if you go through, Craven Hall you'll see on the doors and along the walls, there are these metal strips that you could stick some-- they just-- and, that's, that was one of those things I requested, so that you could always put signs up and take them down without any tape. And, and you can remove things easily. And also you could--so that they're all tension bars. And that's one of the things that I have, that I requested because I just don't like scotch tape on paint. It's just hard to maintain. One of the things about this campus, and I've been on many campuses in my life, it's remarkably well maintained. It doesn't look tacky. It's not, it, it's aging quite well. it's immaculate. when I bring--I oftentimes walk around--I used to always work on Saturdays and Sundays until about eight, nine years ago. I said, I've been here long enough, I could take off the weekend. But I oftentimes find myself walking around campus on Saturday or Sunday. And I'd see people around my age with a teenager and, oh, these must be parents. And I give 'em a little tour, and they always remark how clean things are and how neat things, very, very tidy place. and it, it feels very safe, and, not, not--It doesn't feel like it's been overrun by lots of students. And the parents like that. I don't know if the students like that, but I just thought as an older person's, like, you have to have respect for the property. Keep it nice. 00:14:41.485 --> 00:14:48.125 Yeah. What, so what do you think has been the reasons why it's been maintained so well, or aged well? 00:14:48.125 --> 00:15:43.754 I think maintenance is great on the campus. I think the staff keep beautifully. The gardening is incredible. The bougainvillea are there because of a man named Bernie Hinton, who is a founding faculty. And, I didn't always agree with him on things, but, when you drive up campus drive, you see those beautiful bougainvillea, it's makes a real, I mean--the buildings are large, beige, institutional buildings. There's not much you could do with them. They're not--it's just not, Louis Sullivan type of you, or, an Ivy League school campus. But the grounds are very well maintained. And, it just--it doesn't look--it looks new. It still looks new, and some would say a little bit sterile, but I like that. That's fine. It's always, in good shape. 00:15:43.754 --> 00:15:46.254 And the grounds do a lot, I think, to soften the buildings. 00:15:46.254 --> 00:16:16.000 I mean, the setting is gorgeous. I mean, you can't--it's just kind of nestled into this hill. The logo is reflective of that. I actually introduced the logo. I helped design the logo. You know, of course we've cut down some of the hills behind the campus with our mining and quarry operation. But it's just really set nicely into the hillside. And then you look at it, this magnificent vista and, the library, this eleven sided building has great views. 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:17.000 Yes. 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:18.884 Just really lovely. 00:16:18.884 --> 00:16:23.325 Yeah. could we talk about the process of designing the logo? 00:16:23.325 --> 00:18:05.000 Yeah. We had the original logo, which is kind of the keystone that you'll see right across on Science Hall One that was the original logo with a globe in it. Because that's where the-- the founder circle is there. And it's really nice. But it's kind of, it'd be great--better in Pennsylvania with a keystone type of thing. And so we wanted something a little bit softer, a little bit more evocative of the landscape. And so I was on a committee with a men named Rick Moore, who was the Director of Marketing back then. We came up with a style manual and we came up with this, logo, which looks like, the two hills, with the, with the campus nestled on it. And then people--a lot of people didn't like it 'cause if you turned it on its side, it resembled Demi Moore on the cover of Vanity Fair, when she was pregnant, and they noticed that. But I remember, I was given the honor of unveiling this to the entire campus, and I said, and here it is. And I went like this (gestures). And, then I said--and I showed you on the--on the front of my personal action file. I said, you could use it on your own file for personal promotion. And you could use it like this and that. And it was--people still remember that day when I was--I introduced the logo. And, if you still listen to the answering--then you get the, recording--"The first of a new generation of California State Universities,"--that was me as well. 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:06.000 Nice. 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:15.000 So I was on this marketing committee--little things like that,--I mean, I--I'll remember, doing that. And it's like, yeah, I did that. 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:16.000 Yeah. 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:30.265 But it--and so that logo has lasted. I mean, I think it's, we probably unveiled it around 1998. Maybe it's in need of an update, but that's the one that we have. 00:18:30.265 --> 00:18:44.194 Okay. So, I'm--I wanna circle back a little bit to you saying like that there's kind of this intersection with like the University Marketing and marketing, and then you as a Marketing professor. So were you tapped oftentimes to. 00:18:44.194 --> 00:19:06.674 Oftentimes, yes. Often there were other Marketing professors, but I was high profile and willing to do it. So I always came in--I always had something, to offer that way. And I came in for the local design. I came in for, the, I think the 10th year reunion branding that, a lot of the branding that we did on the campus I was involved in. 00:19:06.674 --> 00:19:18.894 Okay. And does that come back to--does that come back to kind of the campus being small? I hear from a lot of people. Oh, I wore many hats, so, I had to-- 00:19:18.894 --> 00:20:36.625 We did. and the thing is, I got--I talked to Alex Gonzalez once, this is how I became a consultant. I said, in this system, they're always hiring these special consultants with hundreds of thousands of dollars to do--I said, you got go down the elevator two floors. You got 10 people with PhDs in marketing. Why don't you ask us? You give me five grand, I'll do the whole thing for you. You know what I mean? And I mean, I thought, why do you have all this, all these PhDs sitting around and you're hiring these external people? This is a great way to get people to feel more ownership of the campus, because we're actually involved in building it. Well, in the early days on this campus, we had no choice. We had very few resources and, we all knew each other. We were all pretty much based in, if not Craven Hall, we had offices across the hall in, Science One. That was where the library, which was in Craven Hall. So, you couldn't help but bump into all of your colleagues. Now, there are people, I find out they've been here for, you've been here for years, I've never met you. That wouldn't have happened back then. I I saw in the archives, the original, campus directory and had like 15 phone numbers on it. 00:20:36.625 --> 00:20:37.954 Yeah. 00:20:37.954 --> 00:20:46.585 That's how small it was. I mean, that was when we were over at Cal State Jeromes (nickname for Cal State San Marcos' initial location). I didn't come then, I came in (19)96. So we already had Craven Hall. 00:20:46.585 --> 00:21:08.545 Yeah. Okay. This kind of dovetails to a line of questioning I wanted to get into. And--I--so I read a--oh, I'm sorry. I don't have any water in there for you--but, yeah. so I read a University of Buffalo Alumni profile, 00:21:08.545 --> 00:21:09.000 About where? 00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:20.005 About you. And you mentioned, that you found a much different academic experience here at CSUSM than you did at University of Buffalo or the University of Chicago. And I was just wondering if you could expand upon what the difference is were there. 00:21:20.005 --> 00:22:50.733 When we become a faculty member, as a new assistant professor, anywhere. At a campus that's been around for a hundred, two hundred years--and it's pretty well all baked in. Most of the leadership on campus, most of the committee work, most of the--most of the decision making is done by crusty old faculty who've been there for a hundred years. And you're told, go into your office, publish six articles, get tenure, and keep your mouth shut, and teach your classes. And that's it. That was not viable at a place like this. I mean, there's all hands on deck. I mean, there was two marketing professors. So we had to develop all the curriculum. So it was all--I was on a committee with, David Borsky and Jackie Fishman and Michael McDuffie. We were doing all the academic policies on the campus and approving all the curriculum. I was the assistant professors. They were also, in the first couple of years we were all, young people. That kind of work is not done by junior people on campuses. This is done by the senior people. Finally, after like, I don't know, about 15 years, this Provost said, ah, now that we've got this critical mass, we don't have to count on all the assistant professors anymore. We can have all the associates and fulls (full professors) do this. Thank you very much. Now that I still get to do it because I have to protect these other people from doing it. 00:22:50.733 --> 00:22:52.255 Yes. 00:22:52.255 --> 00:23:19.634 And it's like, I was always, pressed into service on things. And that was great for--as you could probably tell, I'm not a shy person. And I'm very--I jump in with both feet. I don't know if I would've been tolerated at other campuses with, ideas and wanting to be part of things. I think I would've been the wrong match. Because I can't keep my mouth shut. 00:23:19.634 --> 00:23:22.174 So it's a good, so it was a good environment in those days-- 00:23:22.174 --> 00:25:43.805 It was a great environment for me and when I hire people, it's like, it's still not that solidified. That there's still room to grow. And, if you think you're gonna come here and hide out for six years before we call on you to do things, you've got another thing coming. So I'm telling people in the second and third year, now it's time to step up to do this, and mentor them through the process. I'm a bad example 'cause I did too much early on. But I still think that that spirit of faculty leadership is still much a part of our DNA on this campus. Although, again, as we've gotten bigger over the years--the other thing is, there were people in those days who were the senior people when I came in, who were the-- had the Union and the this, and the faculty who were, they came here mid career, and they were probably at the time in their late thirties, early forties. And so they were the big movers and the shakers. And I thought, someday I'll be one of-- now I'm one of the old people on campus, one of the old timers. You know, how the hell did that happen? But it--and those people who I thought, how--what would the place be like when they're not here anymore? They've gone on, they've retired, they're fine, we're still fine. And it was a great lesson to me. I had given up my office to some-- a new faculty member. I went into the department chair's office and she found a personalized pen with somebody's name on it of a very dear friend of mine who had retired. She said, I don't know who this is. How do you not know who that is? She built this damn place. And I realized that someday that somebody's gonna find my name on something and they'll say, who was he? Even though it seems, I'm pretty high profile around here, but there will be people--there are people on this campus, most of the people on this campus who have never known the campus without Glen Brodowsky's name associated with it. But starting next fall, there'll be people in a post Glen Brodowsky era who won't know. And you know what? It's okay. It's okay. the campus is bigger than all of us. 00:25:43.805 --> 00:25:52.525 Yeah. Yeah. That's a really interesting sentiment. And so you feel okay about moving on, then? 00:25:52.525 --> 00:26:18.815 You have to be able to let go. One of the things I think I've been very successful in doing is hiring the next generation of faculty. I was hired by faculty who were here 30 years ago, 35 years ago. I've hired faculty that will be here 30 years from now. So I'm connected to the campus for 60 years. That's a pretty amazing thing. 00:26:18.815 --> 00:26:31.105 That is. What do you look for when you're thinking about, I don't wanna say succession planning, but when you're looking towards, bringing people in that will continue to build upon what you built? 00:26:31.105 --> 00:28:29.664 Well, first of all, I'm in the process of-- I haven't even started working at Roosevelt (University) yet, but I'm already in a hiring process for new faculty members. Because they need them. Hiring faculty is the most important thing that you can do as a faculty member. It's the most important thing. Because, it's an awful lot of work. Takes an awful lot of time. And I'm not hiring somebody who I want here for two years. I want somebody for the next 20 years . So it's, will they be happy here? Will they find that this is the right speed for them? People who are looking for a tier one, I just wanna do my research, keep my head down and do my thing and be an independent contractor. They're not gonna be happy here. People who really wanna do a lot of development into programs and initiatives and be involved, they're gonna love it. There're faculty members, they got great records, but I didn't wanna hire them 'cause I knew they'd be miserable here. And who wants to, who wants a miserable colleague? So also, it's like adopting a pet, it's a lifetime commitment. How's I see it. It's not like, oh, I'm tired of it, I'm gonna just give 'em away. No, it's a lifetime commitment and faculty are like that. And so, I've seen people who have been not happy here and they've moved on, and I thought that was the right move for them. And other people who have left and come back. And so there's a kind of a type of person I look for who's just really kind of outgoing and roll up their sleeves. And I want to develop this program and that program and have ideas. Not like, okay, which textbook am I gonna use? And to give my marching orders, and I'll just do my thing. That's not the kind of person that I think of as Cal State San Marcos type. 00:28:29.664 --> 00:28:37.835 Yeah. That makes sense to me. Knowing the faculty that I've interacted with here, it's--I think it fits it pretty well. 00:28:37.835 --> 00:28:57.815 There's someone who I'll point to who are young faculty (unintelligible). She's perfect for this place and this place is perfect for her, and she's going just be great. Because she's gonna be happy here after 20 years, you know? And, life is very short, so if you've gotta do a job, you might as well have one that you like. 00:28:57.815 --> 00:29:21.775 Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You mentioned that, you've kind of talked a lot about kind of this need almost to have folks that are, able to really dive into things. And, I'm putting words in your mouth a little bit, but be a little self-directed in the way that. 00:29:21.775 --> 00:29:22.634 Yes. Yes. Yes 00:29:22.634 --> 00:29:44.924 Yeah. And so you've talked as well about--and kind of circling back to some things that I found about you, and doing research for this interview about--you've mentioned that when you came here, everything was a new initiative, and that you were involved in policy making. and so I was curious as to what some of these changes that you helped implement and what some of the policy making that you were involved with was? 00:29:44.924 --> 00:31:37.234 My first one was a famous one. We had this system called Banner, which runs all the enrollment stuff. We had these courses and we had prerequisites. And there was no way every enforcing prerequisites. And so everything was an exception. And, I didn't take the prerequisite, I want to take the advanced course. And finally I said, can we find a way to code this in so that, they're prevented from enrolling if they don't have the prerequisite? And we found a way to do it. But I remember putting up a sign saying, as of next fall, all prerequisites will be enforced for all College of Business courses, there will be no exceptions made. Not even for you. And I got emails! I was Department Chair of the program for te-- you were preventing me from getting my education, and you're standing in my way and, you're disadvantaging me. And this is so unfair. And the bitching the and the moaning that went on for about a semester or two until the next crop of students came in. And of course you enforce prerequisite. That's how it's done here. And it became part of the culture. this is how it's done. And it was to the good-- to the--because it increases the likelihood that you'll actually pass the course if you've got the background. Yeah. So, it was, there's a lot of pushback. But then once things become normalized, then I, I learned that things will take a, a couple of cycles to kind of get the kinks out. But once it did, now we enforce prerequisites, period. I haven't had anyone in years ask me if they can come in without the prerequisites. 'cause it's just not, not even thinkable anymore. 00:31:37.234 --> 00:31:46.505 Yeah. So, the students obviously that had to adjust and some of them weren't happy about it. Did you run into any pushback from faculty or from advisors? 00:31:46.505 --> 00:33:13.000 No, they were happy with that. I mean, this is a good thing. Just every policy that we put into place over the years and hundreds of them I've seen, on the statewide level too. One of the things that faculty do is before we pass anything, we try to say, well, what about this contingency? What about that contingency? And we try to bake it all in at once. And I finally said, you know what, it's not gonna be right the first time. We're gonna come up with a what if set. We're gonna get an exception in two years, and we're gonna have to revisit the policy. Because something's gonna come up that we didn't anticipate. And it always has happened. So one of the things that I've tried to implement over the years is whenever we have a policy, we put in a clause that says, and this policy will be reviewed in three years and updated. So we'll go back and say, is there anything that we missed? Because, who could have anticipated, the internet, who could have anticipated ChatGPT. What happens to things like who owns, intellectual property in the age of Chegg and Coursera. I mean, how do we, we, the law has not caught up to the technology. So you can't make, ironclad policies. They're going to change. And so why not just build that into the system to say it's time to look at the promotion and tenure policy. 00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:14.000 Yeah. 00:33:14.000 --> 00:34:33.735 It's time to look into the--into this. And we just had a big discussion about the promotion and tenure policy this year, about people coming in with service credit and can you go out for early tenure, and how does that work? Well, we had to really think about it. And then we said, okay, we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to grandfather some people in and then move forward, because, if you're coming under one set of rules. Like, with the prerequisites, you think, well, I'm entitled to that. Well, yeah, but that's gonna, that's gonna end and we're gonna have to have some transition. You don't see that when you first start out, but you see that after 5, 10, 15, 20 years of, oh yeah, we're back to this conversation. We had this conversation 15 years ago and yeah, we knew this would come back to bite us in the ass. And sure enough, here it is, and so-- but faculty have this, well, what about this? Because faculty like to just talk about things. It's like, okay, it's not gonna be perfect. Let's send it up the food chain and see what we get and then we'll come back around the next time. Kinda like sending a paper up for review and said, when I first tried to get something published, I had no idea and I wanted it to be perfect. I said, no, you leave a little something for the reviewer to pick on this, then they'll have something to say. You know? 00:34:33.735 --> 00:34:48.094 Yeah. That's wise. And, I think it's smart, to revisit policy as well. I think that's a really good point. Just to circle back and give things in an occasional refresher and to build that process into the actual design of things. 00:34:48.094 --> 00:35:10.855 That's normal. It's normal. And it takes some of the do or die attitude away if you don't get this right. You know? We'll, it's like raising kids. It's like, assume that you need a fund for the, education, the fund for the therapy. Because you could just screw it up. So be prepared. 00:35:10.855 --> 00:35:24.614 Yep. Well, thank you. I wanted to ask you as well, kind of, kind of along those early days, in 2005, you were involved in CSUSM's. Faculty and residence program. 00:35:24.614 --> 00:35:25.139 Yeah. 00:35:25.139 --> 00:35:30.284 And so this is pretty wild. I had not encountered something exactly like this. 00:35:30.284 --> 00:35:30.295 I lived on campus. 00:35:30.295 --> 00:35:37.385 Yes. That's what I wanted to ask you about. So could you talk about the program as a whole and then why faculty members lived on campus? 00:35:37.385 --> 00:36:20.364 Yeah, they would have one university faculty living in the University Village apartments. There's an apartment there. And I had, at that time, I had an apartment, I had my condo here. And I also had met my partner. So we were down in San Diego. Then we had this apartment. I was here four or five nights a week living on campus with the students. My goal was to, have some programming for them, get to know them, maybe. I took a couple students to the symphony and to the theater. Just to kind of bring the quad down there and them up there. And then the second year, there was a wonderful woman who founded our nursing school, Judy Papenhausen. 00:36:20.364 --> 00:36:20.485 Okay 00:36:20.485 --> 00:36:21.000 She-- have you ever heard of her? 00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:22.414 I haven't. 00:36:22.414 --> 00:38:04.344 She retired from Cal State LA and in her seventies came down to Cal State San Marco to build the fa--the nursing school that she always dreamt of. And she was a kind of a tough ole gal, you know? Been around a long time. And she'd been living in a--she had like this camper that she was living in. I said, well, Judy, I said, there's a two bedroom from apartment over there. Why don't you come and shack up with me? So she moved in and we had this two bedroom apartment. And Karen Haynes was like, oh God, Glenn, and Judy are shacking up on campus. Out of wedlock and the whole thing. She's a lesbian, I'm a gay man. It was a big joke. But, and--it was an--it was a nice-- I lived on campus, you know . And, I don't think I did as much with the, as I thought I could have. I don't know. It just, I know one night that there was--they woke me up, but I came out to the hallway and my door closed behind me, and I--they put peanut butter all over the handle. I couldn't open the door. I came into the executive committee meetings. I said to Karen, I said, I don't know what's--they're putting peanut butter on my door and locking me out in the middle of the night. I said, when I went to school, we just did drugs and had sex. What's wrong with these kids? And she's like, oh God, I think people know we made a bad choice here. But it was, it was a fun thing to do and I was the second person to do it, and Scott Greenwood did it first, and I think he was probably more successful. 00:38:04.344 --> 00:38:09.387 Okay. So what was the, like, what was the goal of having the--what was the University's goal in having a professor live in the dorms? 00:38:09.387 --> 00:38:17.764 I think just to kind of join the academic and the student affairs element of it and have, have an adult presence there. 00:38:17.764 --> 00:38:22.204 And do you think it was--so you said maybe, Scott was a little more successful than you were. 00:38:22.204 --> 00:38:44.355 I think he was more involved in it. I think he was--had his wife there, and so they were like dorm parents and things like that. And, I did work a lot with the RAs now that was kind of nice. So I enjoyed it. I did it for about a year and a half, and I said, it's time for somebody else. And I think that--I don't know if anybody else did it after I did it, it was a short-lived program. 00:38:44.355 --> 00:38:47.000 Okay. Yeah. That's what I was gonna ask you was if it, if it continued on or not. 00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:48.000 Yeah, no it didn't 00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:53.525 Okay. I wanted to ask you as well about the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association. 00:38:53.525 --> 00:41:02.945 I got involved in that a couple years ago. And, the first thing I tried to do is I said, let's have, a dinner at my house. Our Friday night, which is Shabbat, I said, and I'll have a, a nice spread. Everybody will come and we'll have a social event. Well, it's too Jewish. What about people who aren't,-- it's the Jewish-- I said, it's Friday night at my house. We'll have candles and wine. That's it. People may be offended. I said, why? I mean this--the Jewish faculty here are split this. Some people are just very, very, culturally--or just they identify as Jewish, but want no part of the religion. And they're very progressive. And then there are people like me who are a little bit more conservative and are more religiously oriented. So we had our first--we raised a little bit of money over the years. We had to spend it. And I decided that I was gonna have an interfaith Passover Seder. And we did it last year. And all the faculty, they wanted this, they wanted that, anything but Jewish things, they just wanted all this political stuff. And I said, we're gonna do this. Had the meal, had the whole thing, and none of the faculty and staff showed up. This one was too busy. This one had foot surgery that--So they all want to have their input on it, but nobody wanted to do any of the work. So here I am schlepping food and cooking food and doing all this stuff. And I said, there doesn't really seem to be very much will for this to happen. but I stuck with it for two or three years and, it was the only event that we ever had was that Seder. And, the Provost was there and the Vice Presidents for all the other-- couple of faculty, a couple deans. I had seating for 50 people, 10 people showed up. We had a little circle. We had a very nice Seder. And then I was taking all this food to this homeless shelters around trying to get rid of this food, you know? At night, because, everybody was--everybody wanted to say what they wanted, but nobody was willing to do anything. 00:41:02.945 --> 00:41:06.965 Is there--so you-- there's about 50 Jewish faculty and staff on campus? 00:41:06.965 --> 00:41:11.474 I don't even think there's that much. I think there's maybe 15. It's a very small number. 00:41:11.474 --> 00:41:17.364 Yeah. Yeah. So is there, is there, other than the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association are there like--. 00:41:17.364 --> 00:42:06.675 Hillel is active now. And Chabad is active. Chabad is right here in San Marcos. And, Chabad are very, very conservative religious organization. But they are serving a purpose. The students are going there, they outreach, the students, students go there. And then they (say) we don't want Chabad here. They're too religious, but they're the ones who are serving the students. And I think they're doing a great job. And now Hillel has become much more active on campus, especially with the recent, protests. My husband as of today, is on the board of Hillel. So he's involved with that. It's a good organization. So there are not that many Jews on this campus. Maybe there's a hundred. 00:42:06.675 --> 00:42:10.144 What is the, what is the mission of Hillel? I'm not, familiar. 00:42:10.144 --> 00:42:13.224 Hillel is a Jewish student organization. 00:42:13.224 --> 00:42:15.045 Oh, okay. It's a student organization. Okay very cool. 00:42:15.045 --> 00:42:54.614 Student organization. It's, international. It's--most campuses have it. There's usually Hillel House on campus, and they have social, and they have--and also like at UCSD, they have a big facility. UCSD is a pretty rough place right now with the,with protests. And Jewish students don't feel very safe on campus. They're being harassed and so they hang out at the Hillel Center and we try to provide a safe space for them just to feel, that it's--that they're not, on display so much and they can just kind of breathe. 00:42:54.614 --> 00:42:59.735 Yeah. Those, I mean, student identity and inclusion spaces are really important for people to 00:42:59.735 --> 00:42:59.744 They're important! 00:42:59.744 --> 00:43:00.764 Get a break from the larger-- 00:43:00.764 --> 00:43:34.925 Yes. Yes. I am-- I was never into having, these--we have separate graduations for different--I am--I'm much more integrated into everything. I'm much more like one graduation. We all wear the same stupid robe in the same hat. We're all the same. So I'm not really a big proponent of these, designated spaces, but I understand their importance. And Hillel's an international organization, and they have programming and, support services for Jewish students. 00:43:34.925 --> 00:43:40.385 Has there been any talk on campus here of having like a Jewish student center or anything like that? 00:43:40.385 --> 00:43:59.775 No. It's too small. And the Hillel--Chabad house is right down the street and they open their home on Friday nights for everybody. And I think it's wonderful. They're the ones with the black hats and the wigs and the (unintelligible). You know, I went to my period of working with Chabad, I don't know if you were here-- Yes. With the shooting at Chabad. 00:43:59.775 --> 00:44:01.585 Yeah. Yeah. 00:44:01.585 --> 00:44:03.565 I was on my way there that day. 00:44:03.565 --> 00:44:03.985 Oh my gosh! 00:44:03.985 --> 00:44:39.695 When it happened. Because I was doing some work with them. So I know that rabbi quite well. Yeah. He turned out to be a convicted felon. He went to jail. And so, I went from, thinking, oh, my whole life that I was--and I was born in Crown Heights, which is where the headquarters is in Brooklyn with all the black hats. And I'm not one of those people. I always felt like, oh, I'll never be good enough to be one of those very pious Jews. And then I found out that, after that I said, well, maybe not quite up to stuff for me. Yeah. So, it was interesting. 00:44:39.695 --> 00:44:47.764 Thank you. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the consultant to the President that you did as well. 00:44:47.764 --> 00:45:33.465 At that time, I was consulting on the logo and also the budget. There was a budget discussion and the President wanted to get the faculties feeling on budget issues. And so I did a number of focus groups with faculty about the process. This is with President Gonzalez. And basically what I found,--I said--was, that they wanted the Presidents to take a more active role. They were not trying to say don't do it. They said, we wanna see some leadership. So I sat in the President's office, says Alex they're were looking to you for leadership and direction. Don't fuck it up. 00:45:33.465 --> 00:45:43.724 So what was--so, Gonzalez was the second President after Stacey, then Karen Haynes comes in. What do you--were you here when Stacey was here? 00:45:43.724 --> 00:45:47.304 Oh yes. I remember. I remember Dr. Stacy. He just passed away. 00:45:47.304 --> 00:45:54.625 Yes. Yeah. So what do you think like the differences between them were. 00:45:54.625 --> 00:47:20.914 You know, very few people liked Alex. He was not light. And he was considered, the Chancellor's guy. He was, I remember, one of the things, he was, the interim President after Stacy, and then, Charlie Reed, who nobody liked except I liked him. Appointed him the President, and they were having the installation of the appointed no search President, which I dubbed the Coronation . So we were all going to the coronation. And that was the term that we used. That was my word 'cause I remembered that from Mr. Rogers, with the king and the queen. They had the world coronation. and I, and Alex was never quite comfortable in his own skin. He was, quite--lemme tell you a story about Alex. So, I saw him at a dinner at the Chancellor's office once. And, I said, Alex, thank you for everything he did on our campus. He left it in great shape. And Karen has taken it in a new direction. He said, yeah, but those two buildings that she opened up, I got the funding for. It's like-- I told Karen that. She said, yeah, that sounds like Alex. It's like he was not able to be gracious in terms of just, he was trying too hard. 00:47:20.914 --> 00:51:32.474 And I looked-- worked very well with him, and I liked him, and I could sit in (unintelligible). They're looking for leadership. Don't fuck it up, Alex. I said that to him. Karen was--Karen was a force of nature. She was, a huge personality. Everything with Karen was somewhat formal. Even though she was very folksy. Everything was very scripted. Everything was very planned to the letter. And then I came along and, I remember, she always had these outfits that she like, remember those? Monochromatic, one color, the earrings the dress the purse. She used to change her purse every night to match her--And she had these sea foam green shoes on and this matching two piece outfit in the same color. And she was at McMahan house. I said, Karen, I said, I have the same pair of shoes that I've been looking for, the perfect outfit, and only you could find it. And she--she had a huge personality. She was very good with the donors. Some of them. She built a lot. She was the right woman at the right time. She was very senior. She was respected at the Chancellor's office. She had a lot of gravitas. And so I think for that huge growth spurt, she was the ideal person. And I liked working with her. I remember she had this thing over at the reading room here about health--health--allied health careers, and all these people from around the county talking about Allied Health at PalomarCollege. And, not medical school, not nursing, but other things. So she asked me to give a little talk. And I said, I think that you have to start really young with students. I thought first time I played a doctor was in elementary school, So she used to use me as kind of a, an MC type of, she would never appoint me to a real position. I was--but I was like, this spice that she had it sometimes if you use it the right way and sparingly, it was the right accent piece. And we--I understood my place. She surrounded herself with, a lot of good looking young gay men. She liked that. I wasn't good looking enough that that coterie of boys that she had around her. But she liked me and she was--I liked her. I think she was a great President for the time. And Ellen Neufeldt, Boy, talk about a baptism of fire. She comes here and then we had a crisis. We had a scandal, and then boom into pandemic mode. And yet she's really come through all that. She's a very strong President. Very different style than Ellen--than Karen. Much more folksy, much more down to earth in ways. And I've worked really well with her as well. Probably worked more closely with Ellen than I did with any of them 'cause I was chair of the Senate . And I always felt, to be very accessible and very open to ideas. And so, I know if other people have other things to say, but I have--I never felt like I--like I worked for the administration. There was a time when I didn't get the Brakebill Award (Distinguished Professor Award at CSUSM) once, and my colleague got it. And Rather than be bitter, I threw a party at my house for 60 people. And I called and baked, and I invited the President and the Provost at the time. 00:51:32.474 --> 00:53:49.355 And they both came to my house. It was Karen Haynes and Emily Cutrer. And they said, this is the first time we've been invited to a faculty's home. I said, wow. That's telling. I have all these people here. I'm giving them a tour of my house, which is very dicey, you know. And, I was up in my bedroom. I said, I just wanna tell you, I don't work for you. You're not my boss. I work for the state of California and I serve the students and the taxpayers. You have a different job on that campus in that we serve different functions, but we all have the same boss. I don't work for you. And they said, we wish more faculty thought of it that way. So I never looked at them as like, that's my boss, you know? They're partners and they have a different role. They have a different perspective and a different viewpoint. Vantage point. And so I've worked with every President. I've no problem walking into the President's office or the dean's office, or the provost office is saying, we need to get this done, or this is pure bullshit, we need to fix this. And I was never afraid. And I don't know, people say, I'm privileged. I'm a white male. I could get away with that I could never do when I was a black woman. I don't, I don't know if that's a joke. I--it's just that's my style and it served me well here. And it--well, I got in trouble a couple times, but we won't talk about those But, I, think if you comment things from a--always assumed that everybody has good intentions, that even though I think what the President or the provost is doing is completely boneheaded that I--or the board of trustees god help us. They do crazy things. I think their intentions are good. Now. How we get it done may be impossible. But if you start with, I don't think that they're out to make it worse. And we all cop to that. We're all trying to make it better. We have different ideas about how to get there, but if we can always assume that we're all coming at it with positive intentions, I think that, that solves a lot of problems. 00:53:49.355 --> 00:53:53.204 Yeah. And it sounds like you've had good relationships with all of the Presidents that you worked with. 00:53:53.204 --> 00:54:09.514 All of them, I've worked with I dunno, ten deans? I could rank order them if you want, but I won't. But there've been, good ones there have been bad ones, but there's been none that I couldn't work with them. I'm gonna be myself. 00:54:09.514 --> 00:54:12.965 Yeah. 00:54:12.965 --> 00:54:13.594 I am. 00:54:13.594 --> 00:54:15.304 Yeah. Yeah. 00:54:15.304 --> 00:54:45.795 So it's been--what a ride. I mean, who gets to build a place? Who gets to sit here and look at this? Oh, yeah. Well, we did that. I remember when that wasn't there. Or, the day we opened the library, my god, Karen Hayes was standing outside the library and Alex built the library. He got credit for that, and I said to Karen, I said, you know what? This is my baby. This is my life's work right here. Take care of it. 00:54:45.795 --> 00:55:01.605 Yeah. I don't know where to, where to go with that, but it's a wonderful-- 00:55:01.605 --> 00:55:16.155 That's how I feel. I mean, I'm leaving with--I couldn't have had a better career. Could not have had a better--couldn't have planned it better. 00:55:16.155 --> 00:55:31.000 So, a lot of this that you've talked about, a lot of this, kind of need to take initiative and need to, wear many hats, really has given you a skillset now where you can go, back to Chicago and, and be a dean there. 00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:32.000 Yeah. 00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:34.894 And so in that way, it's been, it's been a really good environment for you to-- 00:55:34.894 --> 00:55:40.835 The President said that you built the campus, you know how to do that. 00:55:40.835 --> 00:57:04.000 Yeah. I've had a nice research career. I've done my research, done a lot of research. I've taught a lot I've taught all over the world, you know? One of the things I say to new faculty is, you can do great research. You can do great teaching, you can do great service. You have to do all three. You don't have to do all three every day. Every week or even every semester. There are times when you should be really focusing on your research. You got a great project, you gotta get tenure, you gotta get this done. But then, once that's done, maybe you should be developing some new curriculum or being on a committee, or, chairing a--I was in--I was president of a professional organization for a couple of years. I mean, so you do different things, at different times. And so there's always something new about the career. You know, I spent 17 years traveling around the world teaching. 14 years on statewide academic center. I published 30 articles, and then I just published two books, but I didn't do everything at the same time. You know. 00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:11.315 Let's, talk about your guest teaching. So you've taught in Taiwan multiple times. You've taught in-- 00:57:11.315 --> 00:57:13.534 I'm supposed to be there now. I had to give it up. 00:57:13.534 --> 00:57:14.454 Oh, I'm sorry. 00:57:14.454 --> 00:57:19.255 That's, that's my-- Taiwan, Copenhagen-- 00:57:19.255 --> 00:57:19.264 Ecuador. 00:57:19.264 --> 00:57:39.014 Ecuador to Shanghai. Taiwan started as a Fulbright. I looked at the Fulbright. I said, that one has my name on it. 'cause I had lived in Taiwan. I got it and I spent five months there, and I reconnected with some old friends of mine who I knew in the eighties (1980s). 00:57:39.014 --> 00:57:39.718 Nice. 00:57:39.718 --> 00:58:21.000 Who now is like, this woman is like my sister. I've known her literally for 40 years. And we've never--we don't speak any English. It's all Chinese. And they liked me, and they started inviting me back every year. So I got invited back every year through this year. I was supposed to be there now teaching, but I said, I've gotta start a dean's position. I've gotta move. I've gotta finish-- I just couldn't do. And it, 17, 18 times doing the same thing. It's--I think at a certain point it's time to say it's been terrific, but they'll move on. 00:58:21.000 --> 00:58:23.000 Yeah. 00:58:23.000 --> 00:59:36.855 But that was great. That was just like--kept up my Mandarin and I kept up my friendships and I loved Taiwan. I'm like a local there. And then somebody suggested I try Copenhagen Business School. So I applied. Got it. And there was like this group of us that would come in every summer for 10 years. We'd all fly in from all over the world. We'd hang out, rent apartments together, have parties go out to dinner. It was like summer camp. And, so I'd have everybody over and I'd cook and I'd bake and we'd travel on the weekends. It was great. And then right before COVID, I was getting a little bit tired of it. And then the guy who I used to call my summer husband, because we had--we shared an apartment. They didn't invite him back. At the last minute. They invited everybody else, and they didn't even send them a no thank you. They just didn't. And I thought that was kind of rotten. And I thought, God, if that happens to me, and it could, because I'd seen them do it. That would really ruin it for me. I would--I'd feel really awful if like, we were not invited back. 00:59:36.855 --> 00:59:36.864 Yeah. 00:59:36.864 --> 01:00:35.255 And I was only going back for the 11th year because we had the apartment. And when he got canned, a lovely man, he's at University of Oregon, one of the campuses up near Redford. Southern Oregon. I said, I don't need the apartment. I don't need to go back. I've done it 10 times. There's nothing new here. I had a new book coming out. My parents were getting older, so I said, I'm not gonna go back. And they said, oh my God, how are we gonna replace you? We-- you were a brilliant teacher, and we would love to have, but we understand that you have older parents. So I got outta that one, and COVID happened, and the whole program went online, and it's never been the same since. And the esprit de corp, is not there. Everybody's kind of on their own way. I got out at the right time. 01:00:35.255 --> 01:00:35.264 Yeah. 01:00:35.264 --> 01:00:50.073 Ecuador came to me, out of the blue. Would you like to teach a course in Ecuador in international marketing research? Sure. What the hell? I get an invitation like that. Why not? 01:00:50.073 --> 01:00:51.914 Yeah. 01:00:51.914 --> 01:01:48.335 So I went and I drove this poor woman crazy. She ran the place and she told her I was crazy until I got there. And I had a very successful course. And I got invited back four more times over the years. But the first--you never know if you're gonna get invited back. So I flew my partner down. We went to the Galápagos, whatever money I made down there, it went--yeah. I'm in South America, Ecuador, I may never be here again. Let's blow the money on the Galápagos. Fabulous. Next year. I went to the jungle. I went to the Amazon, I went to Machu Picchu, loved it. I got another sabbatical, and I applied to be at the China European International Business School, CEIBS. Shanghai, four weeks, 25 grand. The most prestigious that I could get. I hated it. They hated me. The most lucrative one didn't last. 01:01:48.335 --> 01:01:48.344 So-- 01:01:48.344 --> 01:01:50.000 So you win some, you lose some-- 01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:51.000 Yeah. 01:01:51.000 --> 01:03:31.724 But, you know, three out of four, where I was invited back multiple years and never was not invited back. I mean, it's--I was--and so that was about almost 20 years of my life where I was doing international work. Which is what I wanted to do. I had a beachhead in Asia. I had one in South America. I had one in Europe. Plus I was gonna Mexico. I was going to Germany, all that. But I mean, I was really an international lecturer all on my own. and it was great for about 17 years. And then COVID happened. I thought, I don't have to fly internationally. I did. It was great. And I made the most of it. And that was a big chapter of my life that's --it's kind of behind me. But boy, it was great. And sure. How could, how could you be somebody who teaches international marketing, cross-cultural marketing, doing it, sitting in California. So I, I did it. And I was able to do it and get away in the middle of the semester and schedule things and go away for four or five weeks at a time. They never missed me. I was, the department chair, was running meetings on Zoom at three o'clock in the morning, whatever I was doing, they let me get away with this. I can't believe it and yet, I never didn't do my job. I never--I was a reliable vote on everything and whatever. So, boy was I lucky. 01:03:31.724 --> 01:03:44.045 So what was the biggest--what was the biggest adjustment in teaching when you teach overseas as opposed to here. 01:03:44.045 --> 01:03:46.228 I do it exactly the same way. 01:03:46.228 --> 01:03:46.720 Yeah. 01:03:46.720 --> 01:04:36.625 I mean, even when I did it in Ecuador, I had a simultaneous translator who turned out to be a good buddy of mine. We've been friends for years now. we've worked on some projects together. So that was a little bit--learning to pace myself so that he was simultaneously translating. That was not that bad. I just never adjusted to the program. And in Shanghai, it just . They evaluated me after the third day, and it was not good. And it was too heterogeneous a course, class. It's just--at the time-- it just didn't work. I'm sorry, it didn't, but Taiwan was easy. Taiwan was, now during COVID, I taught in Taiwan, I had eight hour classes. 01:04:36.625 --> 01:04:37.505 Wow. 01:04:37.505 --> 01:05:19.204 00 PM in front of my computer till two, three o'clock in the morning, drinking coffee here in California. But I--I've been teaching international students since I was in college. I tell the same jokes. I'm used to a non-English speaking audience. I'm used to talking to people in a way that they can understand. I speak slowly. I give lots of examples. I've had the same response from students wherever I've gone. 01:05:19.204 --> 01:05:24.764 Could you talk about cross-cultural marketing and what--for a layman like myself, what is-- 01:05:24.764 --> 01:09:11.000 Interestingly enough, the first book I did was about cross-cultural international marketing, comparing Germany and France and France and China and all these kind of--how is marketing different? How do people consume products differently? How do they use products differently? A lot of my marketing was about time, how do people conceive of time differently in different places? And it is very different. And it feels different whether, in certain places things are very linear. You do A and then B and C and D and other places, everything's going on all at once. It doesn't make any sense. It could be very disconcerting. And so a lot of the earlier work was about comparing things on the national level . And then what I realized is that culture--countries are not cultures. Countries are multidimensional. So the second book was more about intercultural marketing, let's say taking Southern California and looking at dividing that up between the Latino culture. that if you're looking at the Asian culture in San Diego, it really is not Chinese. It's Vietnamese and Filipino. Okay. If you go to LA and San Francisco there is a Japanese culture there, you've got hip hop culture, you've got--Latino culture is not a monolith theater. You've got here. It's all Mexicans. In New York, it's Puerto Ricans and Ecuadorians and in Florida it's Cubans. They all speak Spanish, but music's different. The food's different. Some of the things are similar. I mean, it tends to be Catholic and family oriented and male dominated. There's certain kind of Latin things. But then even within that, you've got first generation Latinos who just came here, and their parents are different. They consume differently. They speak differently. They see the world differently. So the cross-cultural marketing, some of it I think of doing, in terms of, you could look at things in terms of cross-cultural differences, which are interesting, where you need to change the product or the price, or the color or whatever it is. And other things, you don't have to change everything. There's certain things that will go cross cultures. And so if you can find similarities, well, we could have one product for two groups of people. That saves us a lot of money. That's a lot more profitable. So I'm as interested in looking at cross national differences as I am looking at international differences. And even if you look at things like-- then you have segments that are--you find all over the world. So diaspora marketing. So you find Indian populations all over the world. You find, Hasidic Jews all over the world. They have more in common with one another than anyone who lives within this 400 mile radius of where they live. But that--there's similarities there. So how do we serve those communities that you--or you look at the, businessmen okay. Who are traveling through international airports. They're shopping in Sky Mall. They're buying stuff. They're buying Fendi and Courvoisier at the duty free. They're buying gifts for their wives when they're coming home. They're buying gifts for their mistresses when they're going. So there's a lot going on. And they all carry the same kind of briefcases and wear the same kind of shoes. And yet they may come from 10 different countries. And then the ultra wealthy. I mean, some of the wealthiest people in the world live in the poorest countries. They own them. 01:09:11.000 --> 01:09:13.000 Yeah. 01:09:13.000 --> 01:09:45.844 Okay. So how--so that's another segment. So you can set with market based upon wealth, and that's--that goes across countries. And then there are also things that are very national. There are things that are very American that are very different in things that are very Canadian. Believe it or not, there are differences there. Don't ever tell 'em-- a Canadian, that they're just like Americans. We're just like--Americans are just like us. We're just nicer. You know, you have to look at it from their perspective. It is a different culture. 01:09:45.844 --> 01:09:45.854 Yeah. 01:09:45.854 --> 01:11:00.375 It may be subtle. So, in my book, first book, I had a lot of the more classic, scholars from going back for the past 70 years, who've done work on international marketing, international negotiations. All these different models that we've used to try to understand these differences, none of are terribly perfect. None of 'em are perfect at all. And then the second one is says, what about the African American market? What about hiphop? Hiphop is now a multinational--it's not just an American thing, and it's not just a Black thing. It's kind of the music of the oppressed and the under classes. But then American Blacks' think it's a Black thing, but then you go around the coun--, the world. And it's like, no, there are people--there are more non-Black people who are fans of hip hop than there are Black people. But is it still a Black--isn't it our thing? When the music of the counterculture becomes the mainstream does it lose its authenticity? These are interesting questions. And that's some of the work that I do. 01:11:00.375 --> 01:11:42.324 Okay. That is really interesting. And you talked a lot about intercultural--I'm trying to wrap my head around it as I just got like a very beginner seminar in it. so you talk a lot about the kind of the intercultural, connections that you can make across cultures. I'm interested to know, I guess, how marketing--how you can look at marketing, and implement marketing across cultures when there are structures in place that maybe function very differently. Like we look at marketing, I assume, I'm making an assumption here. We look at marketing very differently than maybe somebody in, China does. 01:11:42.324 --> 01:12:07.104 Absolutely. Well, they're not--Here's one of the things that's very interesting. I'll use Taiwan as an example. Taiwan makes great products. Fabulous products. Their phones are the best phones in the world. And yet they're the shittiest marketers on Earth. They don't know how to market because they view marketing and the Chinese, to an extent do as well, as expense. 01:12:07.104 --> 01:12:07.824 Okay. 01:12:07.824 --> 01:12:16.104 Okay? Branding is not important. Branding is--it's--they--they're much more engineering driven. Okay. 01:12:16.104 --> 01:13:59.364 Whereas a company like Apple or Samsung, they make their products sexy. The HTC phone is, every bit as good, if not superior to the Samsung. But HTC is not a sexy brand. Samsung invested billions of dollars in marketing and in brand building. In making it something where I want a Samsung. The Chinese to their-- the Chinese and the Taiwanese, their mindset is a little different. It's like, we just wanna make it cheap and efficient. We wanna make our profit on having good quality and selling a lot. So they don't really have exclusive brands. Now, Huawei is doing something a little bit different. Huawei is, now you'll go around the world and you'll see Huawei in airports, and they're spending billions of dollars on marketing, and they're gonna become the next Samsung. But certainly the Japanese and the--and the Koreans are very similar 'cause they were much more export oriented. They really kind of understood that we have a small market at home and we have to make our products desirable in the West. China, not so much. They've got 1.3 billion people there. So just in terms of what they've-- Taiwanese just do not invest in marketing. They do not invest in branding. They don't care. They invest in technology. They are the world's best OEM. They will make the best components. You can't build a bicycle or a saxophone or a computer without a Taiwanese component. 01:13:59.364 --> 01:14:01.625 I'm sorry, what's an OEM? Just to clarify. 01:14:01.625 --> 01:14:04.454 Original equipment manager. So they make the components. 01:14:04.454 --> 01:14:05.574 Okay. 01:14:05.574 --> 01:14:32.494 They said, we wanna become an OBM, original brand manufacturer. Well fine invest in branding. Spend this much money on your branding as you're doing your R&D. Oh, we couldn't do that. We just want people to write--It's like. So there--and look, you need somebody who makes good components. So let's brand Taiwan as like Taiwan inside, like Intel inside. 01:14:32.494 --> 01:14:35.104 Yeah. 01:14:35.104 --> 01:14:37.164 They're not willing to spend the money. 01:14:37.164 --> 01:14:38.539 So how, as-- I mean as a marketer- 01:14:38.539 --> 01:14:39.000 Frustrating 01:14:39.000 --> 01:14:45.000 how do you market the importance of marketing to people that don't-- 01:14:45.000 --> 01:14:46.000 Very slowly. 01:14:46.000 --> 01:14:49.000 Yeah. 01:14:49.000 --> 01:15:01.989 But yeah. And look, Levi's. McDonald's. Coca-Cola. IBM, it's all branding. The products are not--I mean, nobody thinks that McDonald's is good. 01:15:01.989 --> 01:15:08.594 Yep. It's not a good product. Marlboro, if you, if you use it correctly, you will die. 01:15:08.594 --> 01:15:08.604 Yeah. 01:15:08.604 --> 01:15:16.385 But my God, the Marlboro man, everyone wants to be that rugged individual. 01:15:16.385 --> 01:15:17.284 Yeah. 01:15:17.284 --> 01:15:21.784 That's what they want to be. 01:15:21.784 --> 01:15:30.414 Yep. That's very-- that's very interesting. So, and I do wanna be mindful of your time. How are you on time? 01:15:30.414 --> 01:15:37.864 Fine. I'm just--I'm realizing that hopefully I didn't leave my wallet where I think it's. 01:15:37.864 --> 01:15:58.824 Okay. let me ask you a little bit about marketing. About-- I'm gonna ask you to forecast a little bit. Obviously we're seeing huge technological changes and we really have been since the advent of the internet. But--so I guess my first question is, how has marketing changed since, the advent of the Internet? 01:15:58.824 --> 01:18:34.000 It's completely data driven. Completely. There (is) more data than ever there's no shortage of data. We need people who could interpret data and extract information. What does it mean? What does it tell us? So there'll be jobs and data analysis. Students don't have a good grasp on that. Those who can take information and say, well, what this means is this. Not, here's this number. 30% do this, 20% do-- That's nice. But what could we say with that? What can we conclude. Those skills are, are lacking. I think, also the old kind of-- the company tells you what it wants to tell you about its products is gone. It--it's all C to C it's all consumer to consumer. It's all word of mouth. I mean, they always said word of mouth is the strongest marketing before the internet. Now it's like on steroids, because, you're gonna go to Yelp, you're gonna go to TripAdvisor. You wanna see what other travelers say, okay. You know, the commercial doesn't tell you. It's the reviews that tell you that's the first thing that you go to. So, there was a wonderful thing I heard from a person from Marriott who was sitting with me through a number of musicals. You're no longer a brand manager. You're a brand steward. You were--and you have to work with consumers. And you have to understand your customers so that they become your ambassadors. You have to create, evangelists for your brand. Who will tell their friends and rave about it. 'cause they'll also complain about it a lot more. So--and they'll destroy you. So, it's not just how do we craft a message? How do we convince people something that's-- it's not that. It's how do we get people excited about what we're doing so that they'll tell everybody else? So I think the two biggest trends are data. Data, and data and so you got Teradata down, (and) down the road, so-- and what Teradata does is it takes all these data from what you've done. So, you know how, you look at the upgrade list when you're trying to get onto the flight? It's like--and there's like--so like six seats in first class. And I'm always the seventh person so I never get the seat. Sometimes I do, but how do they figure out who gets the seat? 01:18:34.000 --> 01:18:36.000 Yeah. Yeah. 01:18:36.000 --> 01:19:12.614 You know, but there's a lot of information. How many miles do you have? How often do you fly? How many upgrades? There's a whole thing of algorithms that, that they take these enormous amounts of data that we hit--that we have about every customer. And then how do we look at it so that we could make decisions to say, well, it's not rewarding you as a customer, but rewarding the right customer. 'cause that's the customer that's going to become the sustainable customer. You know, customers are an investment. 01:19:12.614 --> 01:19:12.625 Interesting. 01:19:12.625 --> 01:20:01.000 You wanna reward those that are gonna--everybody likes to get something for free, but which one gets it for free? What benefits the company the most? Also, and that could also be where's the goodwill? I mean, how do we, how are we good corporate citizens? You can't get away with the things you've got whether 50 years ago 'cause everybody's gonna read about you. So, do we sponsor,--if we're gonna support Donald Trump, what's that gonna cost us in terms of some of our customers? So we--if we do support Donald Trump with our marketing, is it gonna get us more customers? I talk about this a lot in classes talking about politics. Please it's the biggest marketing campaign every four years as a Presidential election. Why do you vote for this guy? 01:20:01.000 --> 01:20:02.000 Yeah. 01:20:02.000 --> 01:20:18.515 And frankly, very few people are indifferent to Donald Trump. They either absolutely love him and think he's the second coming, or they think he's the devil incarnate. There's not anybody that goes, well, if we get him, it doesn't matter. 01:20:18.515 --> 01:20:19.465 Yeah. 01:20:19.465 --> 01:20:29.095 Nobody feels that strongly about Biden. I don't get the, we gotta get this guy. He's so great. 01:20:29.095 --> 01:20:32.435 So from a marketing perspective, how do you, how do you market him.? 01:20:32.435 --> 01:21:02.734 Donald Trump is a brilliant marketer. He's a brilliant marketer. He knows how to resonate with his audience to say, you have this problem. I'm gonna come in and I'm gonna fix it. I'm going to kick ass and take names. Well, some people will just say, yes, you're right. You shall lead us. And other people are shivering in their boots. But nobody's indifferent. 01:21:02.734 --> 01:21:09.314 Yeah. And then you have somebody, a candidate like Biden. How does--how do you market Biden? 01:21:09.314 --> 01:21:24.795 Well, I mean, he was marketed as kind of the anti-Trump, you know? He was calmer. He was supposed to just keep things even keeled. If it's too chaotic, here's an alternative. I'll just keep (inaudible). 01:21:24.795 --> 01:21:28.324 Yeah. So it kind of, it kind of comes back to Trump. 01:21:28.324 --> 01:21:49.114 Yeah. Exactly. But it-- you can't not talk about. I always turn on CNN, which is an anti-Trump, station, and I always count how many seconds go by before I heard the name Trump. And it's usually about six. 24 hours a day. You can't buy coverage like that. 01:21:49.114 --> 01:21:51.444 Yeah. Yeah. 01:21:51.444 --> 01:21:52.564 Yeah. 01:21:52.564 --> 01:22:02.225 Yep. I wanted to ask you a little bit about teaching and, just kind of the--kind of wrapping up-- 01:22:02.225 --> 01:22:58.505 I'm a frustrated actor, I was not good enough to be a--I love to perform. I like to be in front of a group. I like to be the center of attention. I feel like Phil Donahue or (inaudible) running around a room and getting everybody excited and talking and participating. It's the most fun I can have with all my clothes on. on the worst days of my life in my career, and those are the best teaching days. 'cause when something's really bothering me and I'm all pent up and I can walk into a room and become this other character. And everything outside melts away. And Dr. B is this much nicer version of me. Based upon my life. Not really, but, an exaggerated version of me. 01:22:58.505 --> 01:23:02.005 How is it an exaggerated version or a nicer version of you? 01:23:02.005 --> 01:24:14.604 Well, I can't say the F word as much. I don't know. It's just, I'm having fun. I'm not stuck in my own, what's-- my best days are--I've had a bad customer experience. Another comment--I would tell you everything went wrong in the store. And related to you--in real life. I just--I remember once, this is after my partner died, the first year I was teaching at UC Riverside, I taught there for a couple years as an adjunct. And I walked down into this auditorium and I'm walking down and my face is long and the weight of the world on my shoulder. I was widowed. And I turned around to the classroom and it was different. It all went away. And I was fully present in this moment. Talking about interesting stuff. 01:24:14.604 --> 01:24:15.795 Yeah. 01:24:15.795 --> 01:25:07.000 Asking them interesting questions, getting them to talk, getting them to think. Yeah. Why did they package it that way? Why did they price it that way? Why do they have that in the commercial? What are they trying to say? What's going on? What's the message? One thing, the fun thing about teaching marketing is, not everyone's gonna be an accountant. Not everybody's well you know-- not every-you can take an English class, you might not be an ex(pert), you are always gonna be a customer. You're always gonna be involved in marketing transactions. So even if you never become a marketer, okay, you are being marketed to 24 hours a day. Wouldn't you like to be a more active participant in that? Wouldn't you like to know what's going on? 01:25:07.000 --> 01:25:08.000 Yeah. 01:25:08.000 --> 01:25:11.064 I would. 01:25:11.064 --> 01:25:15.145 So you have a built-in, level of engagement then? 01:25:15.145 --> 01:26:17.664 Yes. Yes. I mean, I talk about this, I talk about toilet paper, I talk about tampons, I talk about, I talk about cars. I talk about, gas mileage and going to Costco. I had a group of students--I got to teach this group of Italian students this past semester and they'd never been to a Costco. And it was a three hour class. And I showed a video about distribution, and we talked about pizza. I said, well, it's 6:30. I got an idea. Let's take a field trip. And we all went to Costco. It's like 10 students, five Americans, five Italians. And we went around Costco and we looked at everything and I said, let's try the pizza. 'cause they're all Italians. And we got the pizza. We got them to rate pizza. But it's like, this is how--this is where people shop in America. They shop in one of 3, 4 places. They either go to Target, Walmart, Costco, or Amazon. I'd say that covers about 80% of where people shop. 01:26:17.664 --> 01:26:20.104 Yeah. 01:26:20.104 --> 01:26:32.265 And they go, this is different. The places the size of an air airport hangar, you don't have that in Italy. 01:26:32.265 --> 01:26:38.005 How has your-- has your teaching evolved over time? Have you changed your approaches or--? 01:26:38.005 --> 01:27:27.284 I use a lot more simulations. A lot more technology. I'm more comfortable letting them work in groups, especially with the long classes in Taiwan, it's eight hours. So I'll give a two hour lecture in the morning, and we'll take a break, and then maybe we will break up and do a case study. And I'll walk around to different groups, and then we'll go to lunch and they'll come back and they'll work on the simulation. So it doesn't all have to be about me. I used to think I was-- I had to be on, if it was the 90 minute class, I had to be actively engaged at teaching. And, I think I've gotten more comfortable with letting them learn. You know. 01:27:27.284 --> 01:27:38.354 Yeah. Kind of talking about students and letting them learn. Have you seen our student body evolve over time? 01:27:38.354 --> 01:28:09.175 I think post COVID, there's been some--there's been some real loss of social skills, real loss of engagement. I see that also among the faculty, people not knowing how to behave. People don't know how to engage with people anymore. I mean, I think COVID was a real eyeopener about how fragile our systems, our social systems or our educational systems, our financial systems, our logistics systems, everything broke down. 01:28:09.175 --> 01:28:11.154 Things are still breaking down. 01:28:11.154 --> 01:28:29.994 They are still not back where they were. No, they're not. When you turn off a faucet and it doesn't just come back on when you open the spigot. So, yeah. There's a lack of engagement. 01:28:29.994 --> 01:28:41.354 Yep. I just wanted to ask you about your--just to wrap up, I wanted to ask you about faculty Senate, and--so you're chair. 01:28:41.354 --> 01:30:01.015 Yes, I loved it. I was afraid. I thought, I've been asked to do it many times throughout my career, and I said, no 'cause I prefer to be on the committee, not in charge of the committee. Because he could be speak more freely, but--and I wasn't planning to do it. And I ran a couple years ago and I lost. I said, well, the hell with it. And then I was asked to do it, and I said, okay, I'll give it a shot. I promised the provost that if I got through an entire year of running the Senate with no drama in meetings, no fighting, no screaming, no-- that I got a steak dinner. And it was pretty rough year. Lots of stuff going on with GE and things like that. And we got through it and it worked. So I'm hoping I'll get a steak before I leave. I loved it. I really loved it. I also realized that, I had a really good team in place who were like, the detail people. I'm not the detail person, so I was like, I don't have to read everything. They're gonna read it and I'll find the mistakes. And I just--my job was just to--it's just to be the master of ceremonies and keep things moving. I loved it. I thought it was the easiest year of my career. 01:30:01.015 --> 01:30:01.024 Nice. 01:30:01.024 --> 01:30:16.675 And people told me, oh, it's awful. It's miserable. And why would you do this to yourself and they, you know, they said why would you do this to, it's a miserable, thankless position. And I loved it. And the people who I thought would be difficult, I found a way to work with them. 01:30:16.675 --> 01:30:21.327 Yeah. That's good. What was the maybe the biggest accomplishment of Faculty Senate this year? 01:30:21.327 --> 01:30:31.795 Getting us organized to deal with the changes to, GE. 01:30:31.795 --> 01:30:32.835 They're gonna be big. 01:30:32.835 --> 01:31:44.375 Like, and I've been (inaudible) saying this for two years and kicked and screamed--it's going to happen. It's going to happen. I know how things are. And then, no, we could push back and I say, if we had taken the time, instead of pushing back and getting organized, things would be a lot easier. But at least I got everybody's seizures on this committee for the summer. They're meeting, I was able to hand it off, to be able to leave. I mean, and I let the provost knowing and the President('s) office knew before the announcement, at least a month before. And I was determined to not leave anything half done. So getting things sewn up or ready to be passed on, I think goes back to, I could leave the College of Business 'cause I could point to a dozen faculty members that I hired that're gonna be much better at doing it than I am now, or have been. That I didn't leave a mess for anybody. I left it how I found it, but better. 01:31:44.375 --> 01:31:45.414 That's good. 01:31:45.414 --> 01:31:56.000 And that's--people are not gonna open drawers and say, oh, he left this mess. Oh my God, what I do, he's gone. You have to plan the succession. 01:31:56.000 --> 01:31:57.000 Yeah. 01:31:57.000 --> 01:31:58.795 And so there's a lot of talent around here. 01:31:58.795 --> 01:32:05.604 And you leave next week? 01:32:05.604 --> 01:32:05.614 Mm-hmm. 01:32:05.614 --> 01:32:06.283 Well, Congratulations on your new position. 01:32:06.283 --> 01:32:10.965 And may God have mercy on my soul. 01:32:10.965 --> 01:32:14.038 What are you looking forward to about it? 01:32:14.038 --> 01:32:15.131 Being in Chicago. 01:32:15.131 --> 01:32:17.036 Yeah. 01:32:17.036 --> 01:32:20.845 And walking to work. 01:32:20.845 --> 01:32:23.784 Well all right. Is there anything else that I should have asked you that I didn't? 01:32:23.784 --> 01:32:24.423 No. 01:32:24.423 --> 01:32:27.370 Alright. Well thank you Dr. Brodowsky. I appreciate it. 01:32:27.370 --> 01:32:28.255 My name is Glen. 01:32:28.255 --> 01:32:33.755 Thank you Glen. I appreciate you spending time with us today. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en audio Property rights reside with the university. Copyrights are retained by the creators of the records and their heirs. This resource is licensed for noncommercial educational use using CC NC-BY 4.0. Please contact Special Collections at archives csusm.edu if you need reproductions made. Please see the related “Preferred Citation note” for language on citing materials from this collection.&#13 ; Permission to examine Library materials is not authorization to publish or to reproduce the examined material in whole, or in part. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=BrodowskyGlen_VisintainerSean_2024-06-14.xml BrodowskyGlen_VisintainerSean_2024-06-14.xml https://archivessearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brodowsky, Glen. Interview June 14th, 2024. Description An account of the resource Interview discusses Brodowsky’s career at CSUSM, starting with his journey into academia and his experience during the early years of the university, the campus, his work in development of policy and initiatives, as well as marketing, including the campus logo. Interview also discusses Brodowsky’s work in service at the university, his relationship with past university presidents, intercultural and cross-cultural marketing, his approach to teaching both at CSUSM and abroad at Brodowsky’s visiting professorships, the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association and the campus Jewish community, and his past year as Faculty Senate Chair. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-090 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Administrative Building California State University San Marcos. Faculty Senate California State University San Marcos. Jewish Faculty and Staff Association California State University San Marcos. Marketing Department Cross-cultural marketing Gonzalez, Alexander Haynes, Karen S. Intercultural marketing Neufeldt, Ellen California State University San Marcos--Faculty Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-06-14 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Glen Brodowsky Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brodowsky, Glen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Visintainer, Sean Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> CSUSM history Jewish experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/9600f70f23c954b3488c1fa197feb842.pdf 72423fd74f806f323203d3233232e30f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Brodowsky, Glen. Interview transcript, 2024-06-14 Description An account of the resource Interview discusses Brodowsky’s career at CSUSM, starting with his journey into academia and his experience during the early years of the university, the campus, his work in development of policy and initiatives, as well as marketing, including the campus logo. Interview also discusses Brodowsky’s work in service at the university, his relationship with past university presidents, intercultural and cross-cultural marketing, his approach to teaching both at CSUSM and abroad at Brodowsky’s visiting professorships, the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association and the campus Jewish community, and his past year as Faculty Senate Chair. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brodowsky, Glen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Visintainer, Sean Sheehan, Robert Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024-06-14 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos California State University San Marcos. Administrative Building California State University San Marcos. Faculty Senate California State University San Marcos. Jewish Faculty and Staff Association California State University San Marcos. Marketing Department Cross-cultural marketing Gonzalez, Alexander Haynes, Karen S. Intercultural marketing Neufeldt, Ellen California State University San Marcos--Faculty Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant San Marcos (Calif.) Taiwan Ecuador Copenhagen (Denmark) Shanghai (China) Buffalo (N.Y.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en" target="_blank" rel="noopener">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Glen Brodowsky License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/" target="_blank" rel="noopener">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BrodowskyGlen_VisintainerSean_2024-06-14_transcript CSUSM history Jewish experience https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/263b2399055fdac2b7ee4b09862c9925.pdf c057803dbcbcd7c0815a75f8fc024020 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Transcripts Description An account of the resource Written oral histories and transcripts are available for researchers that prefer the written word, or to see the whole interview in a document. Transcripts of <a href="https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/collections/show/5">audio and video files</a> are also available as part of those video files. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Goldberg, Merryl. Interview transcript, April 9, 2025. Description An account of the resource Dr. Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union. This oral history was created in partnership with the CSUSM History Department and made possible with the generous funding of the Ellie Johns Scholarship Fund at Rancho Santa Fe Foundation and the Library Guild of Rancho Santa Fe. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merryl Goldberg Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aaron Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-04-09 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES California State University San Marcos. Music California State University San Marcos. School of Arts Klezmer Conservatory Band Klezmer music Smuggling -- Soviet Union Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Boston (Mass.) San Marcos (Calif.) Soviet Union Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Merryl Goldberg License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_transcript Activists and activism Art and artists CSUSM history History Department internship Jewish experience Women's experience Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Description An account of the resource Video and audio oral histories can be viewed here. Histories are listed alphabetically by last name. Individual histories are indexed and transcribed and can be searched. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>Rights to oral histories vary depending on the history. The library owns the copyright to some histories, and has license to reproduce for nonprofit purposes for others. Please contact CSUSM University Library Special Collections at <a href="mailto:%20archives@csusm.edu">archives@csusm.edu</a> with any questions about use.</p> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aaron Williams Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Merryl Goldberg OHMS Object This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS Viewer) https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml Interview Keyword This filed adds keywords to the Omeka Oral History item type. Keywords are included in the OHMS XML, this field in Omeka will allow for full data migration between OHMS XML and the Omeka Record. This field does not impact the OHMS / Omeka integration and is optional if you do not need to map the "keywords" field in the OHMS XML to the corresponding Omeka record. music;activism;arts education;censorship OHMS Object Text This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka 6.0 Goldberg, Merryl. Interview, April 9, 2025 SC027-078 01:28:23 SC027 California State University San Marcos University Library Special Collections oral history collection CSUSM This interview was conducted in partnership with the CSUSM History Department, and made possible with generous funding from the Ellie John Foundation. csusm California State University San Marcos. Music California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES Klezmer music Klezmer Conservatory Band Soviet Union Boston (Mass.) San Marcos (Calif.) Smuggling -- Soviet Union music ; activism ; arts education ; censorship Merryl Goldberg Aaron Williams Video GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.mp4 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/files/original/93e37e5636e5ef1f864f806c9067fbf1.mp4 Other video English 0 Introduction and roles on campus Goldberg discusses her roles on campus as a music professor and Director of Center ARTES at Cal State San Marcos. She describes their current project ART=OPPORTUNITY that encourages arts education for all students. With assistance from several funders, Goldberg enthuses about the capability of Center ARTES to implement creativity in curriculum across California. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 324 Family and music education Now a professional saxophonist, Goldberg shares where her love of music originated. She talks about being immersed in a creative household, pursuing the saxophone despite initial hesitancy from her parents, and joining the prestigious New England Conservatory of Music. Goldberg also shares about performing professionally with the Klezmer Conservatory Band. 0 ["[\"[\\\"[\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"[\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"]\\\\\\\"]\\\"]\"]"] 659 Klezmer Conservatory Band After sharing about her musical education and introduction to klezmer music, Goldberg recounts the foundation of the Klezmer Conservatory Band with Hankus Netsky at the New England Conservatory of Music. After completing her education, she supported herself financially with performances and private lessons. Since most of the klezmer music was previously never written down, Goldberg describes being able to improvise, learn, and transcribe music. 0 ["[\"\"]"] 1198 Family background and Jewish identity Goldberg delves deeper into her family background. Although her parents were not musicians, she describes their creativity that was passed on to her. She recounts witnessing her grandfather play alongside jazz pioneers like Duke Ellington and Nat King Cole. Despite not knowing it at the time, Goldberg reflects upon growing up in a lower-income community that fostered a child's creativity and imagination. Subsequently, Goldberg shares more about her family background, her Jewish identity, and the foundational aspects of Judaism that encourage creative education. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 1980 Secret code with sheet music After describing her musical education, family background, and Jewish identity, Goldberg discusses her experience in the Soviet Union. Providing meaningful historical context, she describes the dire situation in the USSR faced by minorities and freethinkers alike. Utilizing her musical education, she recounts devising a secret code with sheet music. Goldberg then elaborates on why she felt compelled to take action, and why documenting stories of Jewish persecution mattered. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 2874 Music as resistance and arts education During her time in the USSR, faced with interrogation and possibly incarceration, Goldberg now reflects on music as a form of resistance. She expresses the importance of freedom within one's own mind, which can and should never be policed or censored by fascism and oppression. Goldberg then describes implementing and reinforcing this philosophy through her work as a professor. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] 4042 Why histories matter Wrapping up her own shared story, Goldberg states why people's stories matter. Comparing the Soviet Union in the 1980s to the USA in 2025, Goldberg stresses the importance of empathy, nuance, and compassion. She further elaborates on the preservation of voices under persecution in the past and present. Additionally, she discusses the serendipitous revelation of her secret code and an upcoming book about her experience smuggling out stories of Jewish persecution in the Soviet Union. 0 ["[\"[\\\"\\\"]\"]"] Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:17.000 Okay. Today is Wednesday, the 9th of April 2025. For the Special Collections of California State University of San Marcos, my name is Aaron Williams. And I am interviewing Merryl (Goldberg). Thank you for joining me. How are you? 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:20.000 I'm doing great, thanks. Thanks for having me. 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:39.000 Yeah, of course. So, this is for the oral history project with Special Collections. You are a professor on this campus in the School of Arts and Director of Center for ARTES. Am I pronouncing that right? 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:40.000 Yep. Center ARTES. 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:44.000 Okay. Can I quickly ask about that and your role on campus? 00:00:44.000 --> 00:01:13.000 Yeah, sure. So I'm a professor, music professor. I've been here for over thirty years. And Center ARTES is a center dedicated to ensuring that all kids have access to arts education. Or arts integration in the classroom, and working with school teachers and districts to create those opportunities so people feel comfortable integrating the arts throughout the curriculum. 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:25.000 Okay, cool. So do you work -- what does that look like for you and like the work you do? Like, what is your role in, or—sorry. What specifically do the work you do, if that makes sense? 00:01:25.000 --> 00:05:03.000 Yeah. So specifically, the work of Center ARTES, right now we have our ginormous project called Art=Opportunity. So, under Center ARTES, Art=Opportunities, there's myself, there are multiple faculty fellows who, you know, other members of the faculty, both in the School of Arts and in the School of Education. And actually one of our partners from San Marcos Unified (School District) is a fellow as well. We have several projects. One big one is creating career pathways for people who want to become arts teachers in schools, or teachers on special assignment where they can integrate the arts into the curriculum. By that I mean using music to teach biology, or visual art to teach reading or dance and science. There's just so many ways that the arts can really be foundational to learning and to knowledge and to kids' excitement and creativity and using their imagination. It’s really a foundational skill, the arts are. So, that's one of our big projects. We also have a lot of STEAM (Science, technology, engineering, arts, and mathematics) projects, which mean arts integrated into math and science and engineering. In fact, we have a whole group of STEAM ambassadors who are students who go out into schools doing the curriculum, developing STEAM curriculum, implementing it in schools. We have some podcasting that we do. We have a project called Harmony Hacks (funded by National Science Foundation that encourages women’s participation in computer science) in cooperation with Computer Science folks, which is coding through music. That's a really cool project. That's a—we have other projects too. And in the past, we've done quite a few professional development projects in schools. The DREAM Project, which is Developing Reading Education through Arts Methods. And SUAVE (Socios Unidos para Artes Via Educacion—United Community for Arts Education), which is an arts integration project. In addition to the actual hands-on projects and boot camps for teachers and for student teachers, we do quite a bit of documentation and evaluation of the programs as well. So that's a important aspect of what we do. What we do translates and has become a model statewide in several instances. And that really is something that I think is great cause our reach goes beyond here. I mean, here would be enough, but the fact that our reach goes beyond is pretty great too. And we have support from a number of funders. The—currently the Hewlett Foundation (founded in 1966 by William and Flora Hewlett in 1966 which awards grants that support diverse and inclusive causes) has been really generous with their support of our work. As been the Heller Foundation (awards funding that advances environmental and arts education opportunities). In the past we've had the Stewart Foundation (dedicated to programs that develop fundamental leadership skills for youth). We currently have a National Science Foundation (independent federal agency that funds non-medical science and engineering programs) grant. We've had California Arts Council (state agency dedicated to Californian culture that promotes creative arts education), National Endowment for the Arts (independent federal agency that funds artistic development). So, we're really a pretty robust center. And I would suggest anybody who is interested in looking at it in more depth could always go to csum.edu/artopp. 00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:32.000 Right, that's how I was researching this previously—prior to this interview. I love that you were talking about how far your reach has went beyond this campus using music. And I want to now specifically talk about your love of music and how that, or where that came from. 00:05:32.000 --> 00:07:49.000 Oh, that's a great question. I am a professional musician. I play saxophone. I was on the road for thirteen years performing professionally all over the world with a band called the Klezmer Conservatory Band (formed by Hankus Netsky in 1980 ; Goldberg was also a founding member). Klezmer music is Eastern European Yiddish music, kind of like the real version of Fiddler on the Roof (1964 Broadway musical by Jerry Bock, Sheldon Harnick, and Joseph Stein that was based on Sholem Aleichem’s character Tevye the Dairyman). I come from a really artistic family. My father was a visual artist, actually a graphic designer. And his father, my grandfather, played viola in the Boston Pops (offshoot of the BSO founded in 1885 that plays popular and classical music) and in the Boston Symphony (Orchestra or BSO ; founded in 1881, the second-oldest major American orchestra) and with big bands (also known as jazz orchestras ; ensembles of about ten or more musicians that popularized jazz and swing music during the 1940s). And later in life, my grandfather was the musical director at WEZE in Boston, a radio station. So as a little kid, I remember distinctly going to see my grandfather play on the (Charles River) Esplanade (state park) in Boston on, you know, on multiple concerts. Including July 4th seeing him up on the stage, listening to him play. And when we visited my grandparents, my two aunts who lived next door would come on over. And my Aunt Zelde played piano, and she was a piano teacher. My grandfather and my aunt would perform for us all the time when we were little. So I had music in my background and my— oh, and we had a record collection like crazy. And my dad played music always in the house. I even have pictures of myself with my dad when I was probably like a year and a half, or not even two, playing the bongos and having a record player right next door. So when I was in third, fourth grade, I knew I wanted to play music, and I really wanted to play the saxophone because I saw a picture in my music book of a saxophone. And there was just something about it, maybe it had so many buttons and it was shiny. I was dying to play a saxophone. 00:07:49.000 --> 00:10:49.000 I told my parents I wanna play saxophone. And they said, “No, it's a boys instrument. You'll have to pick something else.” So I picked guitar, but I never gave up on the saxophone. I started taking guitar lessons, which I also loved. And at the studio where I took the guitar lessons, the Buddy Reis studio in Somerset, Massachusetts, they taught all the instruments. And so, I asked if I could try playing saxophone. And they let me. (laugher) I took saxophone lessons on the sly. By the time I was going into high school, I told my parents that I really needed to play the saxophone at that point because I wanted to be in the marching band, no guitars in the marching band. They finally, finally relented and said, “Okay, you can play a saxophone.” I said, “Well, I actually know how to play saxophone. I just need one at this point.” And I had one of the best music programs probably in the state of Massachusetts, just absolutely incredible. Played a lot of music, was in the concert band, the symphonic band, the orchestra marching band. Got a lot of music education, ultimately decided that I really wanted to major in music. And was super lucky to have gotten accepted into New England Conservatory of Music (founded in 1867 in Boston, Massachusetts), which is a very elite music school. It's kind of like Yale is to Harvard (two private Ivy League universities that maintain prestigious reputations). New England Conservatory of Music, NEC, is to Julliard. If you know music schools. Really topnotch and I just loved it. I loved being at the conservatory. While I was there, performed all the time. Ended up being part of this band that we put together for a Jewish music concert. We ended up naming ourselves Klezmer Conservatory Band (and) played on a concert. People went nuts. And then built up a repertoire and we were just in demand. Constantly in demand for performances. Then a famous radio personality called— whose name is Garrison Keeler, on a radio show called Prairie Home Companion (weekly radio show from 1974 to 2016 that reached over four million Americans at its height), heard of us. And then we got national exposure and started recording, and it just built from there, there, there. I love music. I love listening to especially jazz, Brazilian music. Anything with a really good beat I really like. 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:58.000 Yeah, I love hearing this passion of music. It's— I hope you don't mind, it's gonna be a prominent theme of this conversation. (overlapping dialogue) 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:00.000 Yeah, sure. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:08.000 You were mentioning the Klezmer Conservatory Band, and you mentioned you formed it, or were you— How did that start? 00:11:08.000 --> 00:14:00.000 Yeah, so I was a student at New England Conservatory of Music, and I was really into Jewish music. Jewish music is really diverse because Jewish people are in the diasporas (referring to Jewish communities outside their historical lands, particularly after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE). So, there's Jewish music from, let's say, Columbia in South America, from Eastern Europe, from the Middle East. One of the musics I loved like crazy was Yemenite music. There's a lot of Jewish Yemenite music, which is, it's got such an interesting sound to it, like (Goldberg vocalizes a Yemenite tune). It's very circular and it's fun to play and you can dance to it. And then it turns out there's actually a lot of Jewish themed classical music as well. So, for fun, I connected with a professor there, Hankus Netsky (multi-instrumentalist and chair of Contemporary Improvisation Department at the New England Conservatory). And he and I decided, wouldn't it be fun to have a Jewish music concert? And that played music that was, you know, everything from classical to Yemenite. He was really interested in klezmer, cause he had an uncle who had played in klezmer bands. I had not even heard of klezmer. But between Hankus and I and like a whole group of students, we put together this really cool program, very diverse program. At the end of it, we played three klezmer tunes that Hankus had brought to us. Now we learned those tunes by ear because they weren't written down. They were recorded on old 78s (vinyl records that play at 78 revolutions per minute, largely discontinued by the 1950s). And so, we would listen to the music and transcribe it note for note. And then we played together. So, one of the pieces we played on our very first concert, I think was “Silver Wedding,” which is a very upbeat piece. It sounds like this (Goldberg vocalizes tune). And, you know, really upbeat. Audience went cuckoo after we finished playing, wouldn't stop clapping. We didn't have an encore. So, we just played that tune again. And the rest is kind of history with regard to the Klezmer (Conservatory Band). But that's how it all started. So in a way, I was one of the, I was clearly one of the founders of the band, along with Hankus. And Hankus was really the one who brought that music to all of us. So, there you have it. 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:04.000 Do you remember about like, the time period? So it was when you were in college? 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:15.000 Oh, yeah. So that was, that first music concert was probably 1979 or 1980. 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:18.000 And this is at the Conservatory— sorry, New York? 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:18.399 In Boston. 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:20.000 Boston. 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:26.000 Yeah. New England Conservatory (overlapping dialogue) New England Conservatory of Music in Boston. 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:27.000 Gotcha. 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:34.000 Actually kitty-corner (diagonally opposite) to Symphony Hall (concert hall that hosts the Boston Symphony Orchestra since 1900). It's in that part of Boston where there's quite a lot of music. 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:41.000 I have never left California, so everything in the East Coast is New York to my ignorant brain. (laughter) I apologize. Boston. 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:49.000 That's okay. As long as you're not a Yankees fan, it doesn't matter. Boston Red Sox, Yankees, big rivalry. So-- 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:50.000 Love the Red Sox. 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:51.000 There you go. 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:57.000 So, you started the music, the Conservatory— sorry— 00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:59.000 Klezmer Conservatory Band. 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:10.000 Klezmer Conservatory Band in Boston around 1979. After you left the (New England) Conservatory, how did you pursue music still? 00:15:10.000 --> 00:16:12.000 Right, so, let's see. I graduated the Conservatory in ‘81. We were already performing professionally. You know, getting gigs in the Boston area and in the Philadelphia area, some in New York. And as the band’s popularity grew we continued to perform. So that's how I made my living, was performing with the band because I got paid for all the concerts. Also got paid to play parties and bar mitzvahs and wedding anniversaries and, you know, lots of things like that. So my, basically, I pulled together a living by performing teaching private lessons and I taught in a school part-time as a, you know, I was a music teacher. My degree from New England Conservatory of Music was in music education and saxophone performance. 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:24.000 Yes. So, going with the— while performing with— music in Boston, what music did you lean towards? I'm guessing jazz, klezmer music? 00:16:24.000 --> 00:17:25.000 Yeah, klezmer music. Again, kind of like the Eastern European music. So I performed a lot— I mean, that was my main gig, was playing klezmer music. But I also did gigs with other kinds of music. Mostly classical. I was part of a classical like modern music ensemble. And we performed at the (New England) Conservatory as well. And that would be music that was so fun to play, might not have been as fun to listen to. Some crazy pieces with nursery rhymes and saxophone, or a solo saxophone, or saxophone quartet. Different pieces that were basically like twentieth century music or twenty-first century newly composed music. 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:44.000 So it sounds like you really enjoy experimenting with music and seeing where it could go. (Goldberg affirms). Earlier you were mentioning writing— having to transcribe music. Or write music yourself, as there wasn't written (sheet music) previously. 00:17:44.000 --> 00:18:34.000 Ah, so the klezmer music, we learned all of that by listening to old recordings. Or finding older musicians who might have played the music and learning from them, because none of it was written down. So that's how we learned all of that. The klezmer music. And so what we did is we would listen to it— exactly, transcribe it, write it down. Although when we performed in concerts, basically because we had learned it all by ear, we just played without music, without sheet music in front of us. I could play easily play concerts without any, you know, music in front of me because I knew all the tunes. It's a lot more fun to play without the music anyways cause you're not constrained by it. 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:53.000 Yeah, I cannot fathom that. Like, I played music in middle school and stopped. So obviously my knowledge is not at your level, but it was always, I'm sure, impressive. Or was it just like, was it just like innate or did, how did you get to that level? Just being able to play without sheet music. 00:18:53.000 --> 00:19:56.000 Without sheet music, you know, I think for musicians, once you know the tune you can just play it basically. Like for— in this genre of music anyways, or in any folk area, even in jazz I would say. Classical's a little harder because you have to be very exact. In klezmer music, you can just play. But I know what you mean because I look at people who are in the theater. In a million years, I could never memorize a play. I don't know how people do it. I don't know how the heck they can remember it. But maybe it is the same as, you know, the skill I have in music to be able to just play a whole concert without any sheet music because I know it, right? (Williams affirms). I guess that's a skill that actors have that's just a different part of the brain. But I can’t in a million years imagine being able to do that. 00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:15.000 It's fascinating, so thank you for that perspective. Cause yeah, it's unimaginable for me, both instances, acting and music. Thank you for sharing the, about your love of music. And the instrument. Saxophone— It was so interesting hearing how your parents were like, no, that's a boys' instrument. 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:27.000 I know. Well, I'm old, you know, (laughs) and people had those, you know, those kind of biases back then. But, you know, ultimately my parents gave in. 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:28.000 Right, of course. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:29.000 Yeah. 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.000 Just the initial, like hesitancy. 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:34.000 Yeah. 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:42.000 Why do you think— cause again, I mean, I'm not from that time. But I would've thought, “But they'd let you play guitar?” That also seemed like a little— 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:51.000 What was, you know, like an acoustic guitar, not an electric guitar. Although eventually I got an electric guitar too. That was really fun. (laughter) 00:20:51.000 --> 00:21:05.000 That's so fascinating. So, your parents were obviously supporting your music. Did you learn, did you mention— sorry, I forget a little bit. They played klezmer music as well? 00:21:05.000 --> 00:23:02.000 So my parents were not musicians. My dad was a graphic designer. My mom was a teacher. And my mom also was just phenomenally talented. She made, she knitted, she sewed clothes, she made stained glass and these really unique collage pins with decoupage (crafting with glued cutouts in combination with paint or gold leaf). So, she was very creative. And my dad, of course, was a graphic designer, visual artist. And he also painted wonderful paintings. I have so many of them up in my home. My grandfather is the one who was also a professional musician, and he played classical music, but he also played jazz. He actually played with Duke Ellington (pianist, bandleader, and composer who is considered a pioneer of jazz) and Stan Kenton (Stanley ; jazz pianist and composer) with a guy named Paul Whiteman (bandleader, composer, and violinist recognized by Ellington as the King of Jazz). These are— back in the forties and fifties, there were the big bands would travel from city to city. And they actually had a whole string section with them. I mean, a string section that would play with them. But they didn't travel with the string sections. They were hired in each town. So my grandfather was always hired. Yeah, we have pictures of him with Nat King Cole (singer, pianist, and actor who pioneered jazz ensembles and achieved crossover success during the civil rights movement), and other famous folks. And he played with him. And I remember as a kid, you know, he would tell me, “Oh yeah, I'm going off. They're playing with the Duke Ellington” (band) this, or like I said, I saw him perform both on the stage and in the apartment where they lived. And just out, well, basically part of Boston, Chelsea (city across the Mystic River from Boston). So, yeah. 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:10.000 That sounds like an amazing upbringing and experience. Just being immersed in music and the arts, even your parents— 00:23:10.000 --> 00:25:12.000 Oh, it was amazing. And my grandfather who played viola—well, both sets of grandparents lived in what would— could be described as tenements. So, tenements are like apartment buildings where there are a lot of people living. And really lower, lower middle class if that. And you know, when you're a little kid, you don't know about any of this stuff. So I would go to my grandparents' apartment and, in Chelsea, Massachusetts, and it was it was like fairy land because my grandmother would be yelling down the stairs to the downstairs neighbor, “Ida, bring up this, bring up that.” And we'd go off the in the balcony and play in an area that's like a back alley. We'd go in the back of a store that you could get to from the alley. And in the meantime, the apartment really only was a very small one, maybe two bedroom apartment. My grandparents, when I thought about it later, their bedroom was actually what should have been the dining room. But they, there wasn't enough room, right? So, they made their dining room into their bedroom. And, but again, it was such a lively, wonderful place. I mean, I loved it as a little kid. And it didn't occur to me that it was very inner city, very poor. But what a fun place to live. And just all the commotion and the music and the people everywhere. It was like a little kid's dream. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:31.000 Yeah. It sounds like a fairy land. And even though you said it's lower income, just being surrounded by music and the commotion. I want— 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:50.000 Yeah, they even had a— when you came into the apartment, there was a very long corridor. And we used to— we had a plastic bowling set. And my cousins and I, and my brother, we'd always bowl (laughter) in the hallway. 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:54.000 That's funny. And you made your own little bowling alley. That's really cool. 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.000 Yeah. 00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:13.000 What-- (laughter) For me, we just did hopscotch. I never thought to make a bowling alley. That's really fascinating. (Goldberg agrees) Do you have any other memories like that? What else? How else did you— did you convert any of the other rooms into anything else? Indoor aquarium? 00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:28.000 Well, the bathroom there had a— I don't even know if it had a shower, but it had a big clawfoot tub I remember loving as a little kid, taking baths there. That was just so much fun. 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:30.000 I’ve only seen those like in movies. 00:26:30.000 --> 00:27:02.000 I know. And I'm very lucky cause I live— I was able, because of being, I was born in 1959. My parents were all first generation (American citizens). My grandparents were all immigrants. And they, because they were immigrants, they had what I would call kind of old country traditions and way of thinking. 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:04.000 Did they immigrate? Where did they immigrate from? 00:27:04.000 --> 00:28:20.000 Eastern Europe. All of my grandparents escaped before the Holocaust. And my father's family ended up in Chelsea in the Boston area. My mom's family ended up in New Bedford, which is also outside of Boston. And then my family did, just my father's side, part of the family came to Boston, part of the family went to Israel, part of the family went to Brazil. Interesting fun fact, family fun fact, there are musicians in each of the— like my Brazilian cousins, there's an opera singer and opera— you know, there's several musicians. My Israeli cousins I have a cousin named Gila Goldstein, who is absolutely a top-notch pianist. She's president of the (American) Liszt Society (promotes and preserves the legacy of Hungarian composer Franz Liszt). She's just an amazing, amazing pianist. And then, you know, you've got me as the saxophonist. But it's just kind of cool that somehow the genetics of our family on that side we have a lot of musicians. 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:28.000 Yes. Seems the musician is linked to, I'm assuming that's the Jewish side of your family. 00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:30.000 Yeah, yeah. Actually, all sides of my family are Jewish, so— 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:32.000 Okay. I didn't know. 00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.000 There you have it. 00:28:34.000 --> 00:29:06.000 There we go. (laughter) That's so fascinating that music transcends generations and continents. (Goldberg affirms) I wanted to hear more about your upbringing, and were you closely— my upbringing was outside of religion, like Judaism, Christianity, all of it. So, I'm very naive to all of it. Was, is the term secular? Or were you immersed in the traditions (of Judaism)? 00:29:06.000 --> 00:32:36.000 I am, at this point I'm pretty much a secular Jewishly identified human. Growing up— and again, I think this was because when you consider my grandparents were all immigrants escaping Eastern Europe because they were Jewish. My grandmother lived through pogroms (violent attempts to massacre ethnic minorities, particularly Jewish people) in Eastern Europe. My mother's mother. They had, they escaped really terrible things. Jewish identity was something that was really important to my parents, my grandparents. We went to temple, a conservative temple. So Jewish, you have: reform, conservative orthodox, ultra orthodox, and then there's like a whole bunch of stuff in between. We were conservative, which means kind of middle of the road. Early on our family kept kosher (foods conforming to the regulations of kashrut, Jewish dietary law), but then we didn't, many of my cousins still keep kosher. That's a food thing. Dietary laws. And I went to Hebrew school on like two days a week during the week. I went to Friday night services, Saturday morning services, and Sunday school. So I was essentially at the temple five days a week. It was something that was an identity for sure. And I really, I enjoyed Hebrew school. I went all the way through Hebrew high school. And part of that was because in the, in Jewish learning, one of the things that's really central is that a love of learning, and B. that there are multiple ways to interpret things. So I love that. You know, take a portion— there's a book called the Talmud (source of Jewish religious law and theology), which is commentary on what's in the Torah (first five books of the Hebrew Bible). And the Torah is like, you know, how you live by the rules. And so there can be, I don't know, eight or twelve commentaries on the same thing. And, you know, there's just a sense of, “Let's debate, let's discuss.” I kind of wish people did more of that now. And, you know, not about religious things, but just about everyday things. So, my Jewish upbringing really was, I think, foundational in enabling me to see things from multiple perspectives and really embrace that multiple perspectives exist on things. Over the years, my, I guess connection to organized religion has waned. You know, I'm not interested in going to temple at this point, but I really do love the culture. I love the underlying love of learning. You know? That's really part of Judaism. And I feel really proud to be someone of Jewish heritage. 00:32:36.000 --> 00:33:09.000 Yeah, that makes sense. Because you mentioned the underlining love of learning and multiple perspectives, or approaches to that learning. And so with that, it makes sense that multiple people who are Jewish in your family then apply that through music. I want— interested— previously in our conversation and in music, you mentioned coding with music. Right. Right. Right. Right. 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:09.066 Right. 00:33:09.066 --> 00:33:10.000 Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. And I don't know how else to jump to that— 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000 Yeah. 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.000 So I'll just start there— 00:33:14.000 --> 00:35:10.000 So let me, I'll give you a little history on this cause yeah, you can find I've— people know about this story, so I will tell it. So, in 1985 in the world, there was a different world order. There was a Soviet Union, it had not broken up yet. And the United States. In the Soviet Union, there were a lot of people that wanted to leave, they wanted religious freedom, they wanted freedom of intellect, of thought, of culture. And the Soviet government was really coming down on people who wanted something other than what the Soviet, what the Soviet government wanted. So Jewish people were persecuted. Catholic people were persecuted ; Poets, artists, scientists, people who were thinking outside the box. There were some very famous scientists who were jailed. (Andrei) Sakharov (physicist and Novel Peace Prize laureate) is one of them, but— so it was a crazy time. There were a lot of human rights abuses going on. And if people wanted to leave the Soviet Union, specifically Jewish people, they could apply for a visa to leave, to immigrate. But in so doing, they would often lose their jobs, maybe get beaten up or their kids harassed or even put into jail as a disruptor. 00:35:10.000 --> 00:36:41.000 It also was the height of the Cold War. And it turns out, in hindsight it was a crazy time of real spies. Both in the US from Soviet Union, Soviet Union in— US people in the Soviet Union. And it was the heightened tensions of that time were phenomenal. But most people didn't know about the, those governmental heightened tensions. What we did know was one way to get information and to support Jewish people specifically— cause I was working with groups that supported Jewish, what were called Refuseniks, meaning that they had applied to leave and were refused— was to get tourist visas to go into the Soviet Union. Go visit Jewish refuseniks and bring them medicine or information about their field. If someone was an engineer, and now because they applied to leave, they might be an elevator operator. Bringing in like professional information that they couldn't get anymore. And taking out their stories, because there was a feeling at the time, and I think that's true today, is if people in the West (term often referring to nations in Western Europe, Northern America, and Australia) know about human rights abuses and the people, then they have some sort of opportunity to get out. Or for protection. 00:36:41.000 --> 00:37:19.000 Because if no one knows about you, it's easy for them, meaning a government— And I mean, what's going on today in our government is similar and very scary— but you could be disappeared. So having people know about you is really important. There was a reporter from Britain who worked for The Guardian (news)paper, who had gone into Soviet Union and somehow made his way to the state of Georgia. Georgia in the Soviet Union, okay? Not Georgia, here in the United States. 00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:20.000 Thank you for the clarity. 00:37:20.000 --> 00:41:09.000 And now it's a country, and found this group of amazing human rights activists. That included Jewish refuseniks, Catholic Refuseniks, dissidents, meaning people who were trying to change the government. Helsinki monitors. The Helsinki Accords were that everyone should be able to leave a country if they were being persecuted. So, there were all these people in Tbilisi, Georgia (capital city) who had gathered together. And the way they were trying to get their word out to the West was by playing music and holding concerts. And they called themselves The Phantom Orchestra. So once a couple of organizations in the West heard about this Phantom Orchestra, they thought, “Okay, let's see if we could find any musicians who would be,” in my words, “crazy enough to go in and meet with them.” Because going in, there was a certain risk that you could get harassed or, hardly anyone ever got arrested, but deported. And the reason to go in to meet them would be to bring them support, you know, just support people to people ; to take their stories out, to find out more about them. There was a group in Boston that was aligned with Amnesty International (an international non-governmental organization that supports human rights), which is a famous group that works on behalf of people who are, have been victims of human rights abuses. And the group in Boston was called Action for Soviet Jewry. So, people who worked on behalf of Jews, Jewish people in the Soviet Union who were refuseniks or had been jailed, this or that. They approached Hankus, who I mentioned earlier, and said, “We'd like to send in a small ensemble of musicians to go meet with these folks. Would you be game?” And Hankus right away was game. And then he thought, “Merryl probably would be really interested”. So he approached me and I thought, “Heck yeah, I'm in.” And then we needed a singer and someone who played like guitar and mandolin. The singer's name is Rosalie Gerut, and the guitarist is Jeff Warschauer. And we all played together in Boston. And long story short, we— the four of us agreed to go in, but it had to be on the sly. We couldn't tell anybody what we were doing because it, you couldn't go in on, especially on a tourist visa and go visit people. It had to be done in secret. Moreso you couldn't go in and have refusenik's names or addresses or phone numbers written down, because if upon arrival they were discovered you'd be deported right away. They would know that you weren't ordinary tourists. And so we were, we got visas, we got tourist visas, and of course we brought in instruments with us so we could play. Which is already a little bit of a, you know, anomaly cause tourists often don't come in with musical instruments, right. But we were a small ensemble and, we said, “Well, we always travel with our instruments cause we always rehearse.” So we had to develop a secret code so we could write down people's information, write down questions we needed to ask, be able to take out stories in code. And so I developed a secret code written in music notes. 00:41:09.000 --> 00:43:12.000 And what was really amazing was we arrived in Moscow (capital and largest city of the Soviet Union, now Russia), and maybe they had gotten some tip off that we were coming and wanted to meet people. Or maybe our instruments gave us away. But right at arrivals in Moscow, we all were searched thoroughly. I mean, just crazy. Opened up everything in our suitcases and went through my music ; page by page by page, but then handed it back. That was score one for our ability to fight the KGB (Committee for State Security of the Soviet Union that succeeded secret police) or be in competition with the KGB. Of course, then we ended up being interrogated. And that part was pretty scary. Ultimately, we made it from Moscow to Tbilisi. And by hook or by crook, we did end up meeting with the Phantom Orchestra and performing with them in an apartment, not in a (concert) hall. And orchestra really wasn't the right word. It was more like a ragtag group of musicians. And they told us their stories and we wrote them and we recoded it back in music so we could take it out with us. And these were stories of how people's lives were upended and how much like sadly what's going on right now in our country. People were taken off the street, locked up, put in jails just because of their activism for wanting to buck the system. And just asked to leave the country or for wanting to monitor human rights. 00:43:12.000 --> 00:45:34.000 So, I will say two things. The people we met were phenomenally courageous human beings. And two, playing music together was how I learned that even under the harshest of circumstances, one can find freedom, freedom in your mind. And that's freedom over anyone who is either jailing you or harassing you. You have that power to be free in your brain. No matter what happens. So, during the course of that trip, we were interrogated, harassed, at one point told we— the KGB told us they couldn't guarantee our safety. We told this to the people we were meeting who gave us advice and said, “Look, it might, you might end up getting arrested,” which ultimately we did. “Keep in mind, you are not the first to be arrested.” You know, “you are part of a whole group of people. Know that. Two, play music even if you're just singing together cause that will give you respite. Three, remember that because you're Americans, it's unlikely they will keep you for a very long time.” You know, “You'll be some kind of bargaining chip for something, but you'll get out.” And ultimately we were put under house arrest. The, probably the, well, by the time we were put under house arrest, we had become emboldened because the people we met were so strong and capable and very laser centered in what they knew they needed and wanted with regard to the rights of humanity. So we started talking back to KGB and we're crazily bold in hindsight. The only time that, well, there were a number of times that were scary. Interrogations were scary. 00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:37.000 I can imagine. 00:45:37.000 --> 00:47:53.000 Yeah. (laughter). Yeah. And at two times they put us, they separated Rosalie and I, put— I mean, separated Rosalie and I from Hankus and Jeff, put us in cars. Rosalie and I were in one car, Jeff and Hankus were in another car. There were KGB car in front of us, KGB car in back of us. We didn't have our passports. They took those away. I don't even think we had our luggage. I know we didn't have our luggage in at least one circumstance. Drove us for hours. At that point, I thought, “Oh God, they really are gonna lock us up, like in a bad prison.” Ultimately they didn't, they put us in a dormitory. But those tactics were meant to scare us. But I do remember having an epiphany at one point, especially in the very long car ride, thinking, “Okay, whatever happens, I can handle this. It's gonna be okay.” So end of story, we were deported. We ended up in Sweden and we ended up back in the United States. We worked with not only Jewish organizations, but with Catholic charities. We worked with our senator, who was Ted Kennedy (lawyer and Massachusetts Senator from 1962 to 2009) at the time. And we also worked on the Hill (Capitol Hill, home to Congress, the Supreme Court, and other federal institutions) in Washington, DC with many members of Congress and many members of the Senate. And ultimately, when (Ronald) Reagan (US President from 1981 to 1989) and (Mikhail) Gorbachev (Soviet Union leader from 1985 to 1991) had their summit, human rights was on the top of Ronald Reagan's list (Reykjavík Summit October 11th and 12th, 1986). And many of the people that we had met were actually named on lists that Reagan brought to Gorbachev. So ultimately, many of the people that we met with were freed and let, able to lead the Soviet Union. Some people disappeared into wherever, and we're not sure what happened to some people. But the people who really wanted to get out ended up being able to get out. So it was a real life changing experience, I can tell you that. 00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:17.000 Yeah. It's amazing to know that you were able to help other people get freed from that kind of persecution. I love what you were saying about freedom in the mind, and you learning that, and you having that epiphany in the car. I'm just curious more— I'm curious to hear more about that concept and your like— 00:48:17.000 --> 00:50:30.000 Yeah, so another like really good example of this, I don't, I didn't know it at the time, but I learned it afterwards. So, during the Civil Rights Movement here in the United States, it was very common when African American activists were being picked up and put in paddy wagons for their outspokenness and for their— look for their fight, for just human rights as people. Often when they were arrested, they would break out in song. And that is so powerful because it's taking power, it's taking space. That song, singing together, is saying, “You might have us, locked up, or you might have us in handcuffs, you might have us in paddy wagons, but we are still strong. And our music gives us that strength. And you can never take that away from us. You can lock us up, you can do whatever you want, but you can't take away: our sense of what is right, our power, and our work to achieve civil rights.” So I think music, music and sports, or chess, many of these things give people not only pleasure and entertainment but give you the tools to under harsh circumstances ; whether they're something that happens with your family that's just unfortunate or something that happens in school, or kids who get bullied. The arts can be that retreat to center yourself and empower yourself and give you confidence to be able to make it through things. 00:50:30.000 --> 00:51:02.000 Right. And it makes sense that then you apply that to your work here with ART=OPPORTUNITY and Center ARTES. Giving people—reassuring freedom in the mind, and your ability to create art is—you can use those tools elsewhere. I love hearing how people can apply creativity in the real world. So how do you help students? How do you remind students of that? 00:51:02.000 --> 00:52:52.000 You know, it's by doing. So all my classes and all of our professional development workshops, whether for students or teachers or administrators or staff, all of them are hands-on, where we give people things to do. So I'll give you a little example. One of my favorite things is— I'll give it not a music example, a drawing example. drawing from the inside out. Let's say you have, I'll give you a shell and I won't tell you where it is. Oh, I can make it a music example too. But I'll give you the shell example. I'll have my students draw a shell, like, but in a fun way, like either upside down or from the middle and draw out. And while they're drawing, I ask them two questions, “One, what do you notice and what do you wonder?” When they're drawing the shell, they notice, “Oh, it has different colors, it has stripes, it has ridges, it has a little hole in it, it's chipped. It's got white on the inside and gray on the outside, or some of it looks iridescent.” And then they're noticing all these things. And then I ask them, “What do you wonder?” Well, “Where did the shell come from? Why does it have colors? Like, how the heck does it— Why does this, shell have these colors and that shell has different colors, and how come they're ridges.” And, “Did something live in this shell? Did something eat the thing that was living in the shell. Was the shell always this size? How did it get to be this size?” So, this little tiny exercise sparks curiosity, and curiosity is the bottom line of learning. 00:52:52.000 --> 00:55:16.000 You know, if you're curious about something— and if kids in schools can become curious and have all these questions, your job as a teacher is to just then guide them to find out all the answers. In music, what I'll do, like I play my saxophone all the time when I do keynotes, and I'll do the same thing. I'll play a tune. It's usually a klezmer tune. I usually play a very simple klezmer tune where if I can get an accompanist on guitar or piano, it has only two chords. Very easy to play. And the piece actually sounds like this. (Goldberg vocalizes tune) Anyways, it keeps— it goes on. And I ask people to, you know, anyone from little kids to senior citizen, “What do you notice?” And then, “What do you wonder when you hear the music?” And what they notice, they notice, “Oh, it has a beat. Oh, I'm music— I'm moving.” They notice a, that it has sounds like maybe something— little kids will always say, “Oh, it sounds like something from Aladdin. Or maybe a snake charmer, or—” they notice so many things. And then when I ask 'em, “What do they wonder?” They're like, “How did you learn to play that tune? Where is it from? Does it have a name? What is it really about?” And in fact, the music has just, again, sparked so much curiosity within that little tiny kernel (central or essential part) of a five minute exercise of, “What do you notice, what do you wonder?” They've hit on, okay: culture, history, geography, how people learn to play. It’s just so, it's so rich. And so, yes, for me, engaging and getting people to understand about the power of the arts and learning is all about by engaging them in some kind of exercise. 00:55:16.000 --> 00:57:39.000 And then one of the really cool things is every exercise is just a kernel. So, if you go back to the shells, you can look at the kids, or teachers, what they notice and what they wonder, what they've written down. Ask them to circle five words and then create a poem out of it, and then create a two person poem out of it, or create a song, or you can always do more. You can always learn more from what has been sparked. Now the importance of that is: creativity is always gonna be the thing that moves us forward, right? So, knowing a lot of facts is good, and knowing history is really good. Cause we need the foundations and we can go to Google or whatever and find things out very quickly these days. Don't even have to look it up. But being creative, being imaginative, being reflective, seeing what other people do and appreciating it, those are the skills that arts can teach us that I find just so phenomenal. And the arts bring us together in ways where we see each other in different lights. If this group makes this poem or acts something out in this way, this group is like, “Oh, wow, I had never thought about that. Or I never knew that kid could act or could sing or, wow.” And so one of the byproducts of the arts is also this opportunity to embrace compassion and empathy. And, oh my God, if there's one thing in this world that we've got to have if we're gonna survive as a civilization, is empathy. And so, I get really worried when I hear some people in government or not government, poo-pooing the notion of empathy or compassion. 00:57:39.000 --> 00:59:27.000 And we've got to, got to place empathy, compassion, mindfulness as central to, in my opinion, to who we are as people and how we learn. And that’s why I really do love the arts. By the way, I also am a boxer. I've been boxing for years, and I love it. It's so much like music. Jab, jab, cross, uppercut, uppercut (motions as demonstration) is very much rhythmic. But one of the things if you watch a boxing match is it's not only like music in terms of the actual rhythm of the punches, but in a boxing match itself it's very much like jazz. It's all improvisation because you have to be so connected with your opponent that you are paying close attention. And if they do one thing, you do another thing. So it's playing off of each other, playing off of each other. And, the actual punching aside, at the end of a boxing match, almost always, you see the boxers embrace each other. That's because it's been such a intimate dance with each other, and they're very appreciative of each other. Before a fight, they're gonna be talking whatever, because that's what their mindset is. But when you're actually engaged in something like that in boxing, it really is a very close—you're so connected to that person that it's not surprising to me to see that at the end of matches, more often than not, folks embracing each other. 00:59:27.000 --> 01:00:22.000 Thank you for explaining that cause I've never been into the boxing, or whatever. So, the comparison of boxing— I've heard the dance (comparison), but like I still didn't understand. I'm—yes, the, but specifically the jab, jab punches, like as rhythmic, that really clicked in my brain. And as you were saying—or I was thinking this earlier, a lot of what I've learned in most of my favorite classes as a student, they've stuck from music that either a guest has come into my class and performed. Or just remembered that in connection to a lesson. Or it's a movie. So, can you talk more about STEAM and how you integrate art with other professions that maybe some people respect a little more, to be blunt? 01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:24.000 Oh, like, give me a profession. 01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:26.000 So— 01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:31.000 Oh, go ahead. Nevermind. I, well no, you give me a profession actually, and then I can tell you. 01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:42.000 Yeah. Cause my, in my brain, it's like, as a history major, I understand I'm not gonna be making as much money as like an engineer, let's say. So, engineering, I guess. 01:00:42.000 --> 01:03:31.000 Engineering. Great. Okay. Indeed, we actually did a little study over at ViaSat (communications company), which is a huge—has a lot of engineers. So, they’re high tech company, very into the internet. And if you've been on an airplane, it's pretty much ViaSat’s, whatever it is. Their systems that run the internet on airplanes. Okay, I had heard that Qualcomm (software and wireless technology company) and Boeing (aircraft manufacturer) and ViaSat were hiring people who had arts backgrounds because they really wanted engineers, especially people that worked there, who could: think outside the box, work well with each other, have the ability to reflect, and also be super disciplined, right? So, they were purposefully hiring people who had arts backgrounds, cause they figured people in the arts, especially in music, or any of the arts, can think outside the box. Musicians have to work well with each other, have to be able to—in a band you can't be just playing the trombone and the trumpet player playing something different. You have to work together in order to make a nice piece of music. So, we did a study and we found out that indeed most of the engineers at ViaSat had arts in their background. And then we went a step further and we asked, “Okay, how did the arts make a difference in what you're doing?” And some of the engineers said, “It helped me think about electrical kind of connections in ways that were out of the box.” So, “My music background gave me the ability to think in different ways and see things from different angles. It helped me work with others, especially people I didn't like. Because in a music band, I had to work with people I didn't like in order to make music, right? Helped me—" And so you can see those are just two examples of that. We actually have more written about that study on the art— It's, I think the Center ARTES (online) site. We have our research studies, or the ART=OPPORTUNITY. If you go into research, we have those studies. But let me give you a couple of other examples. 01:03:31.000 --> 01:04:52.000 Medical students at UCSD right here are required to take visual arts classes because the visual arts, learning how to see closely, helps them understand and how to diagnose things better. It gives them those skills of looking at things more deeply and from different angles. An ophthalmologist I met with just like within the last month, sent me a study where they had a first, like first year ophthalmology students, so people who studied the eyes, and they broke them into two groups. One group of students, about thirty of them, had six lessons in how to look at art. And the other group didn't have the lessons at all. And then they were tested on the things that they could see in the eye, because they're studying to be eye doctors, right? The students who had the art classes outperformed the students that were in the control group. Like crazy. In a significant manner. It shows you studying the arts can absolutely then transfer over to other areas. 01:04:52.000 --> 01:06:57.000 NYPD, New York Police Department, has their recruits watch theater. And one of the theater pieces that they have done is a piece by Janet (Leola Langhart) Cohen (American author and journalist), written as a fictional version of Emmett Till and Anne Frank (titled “Anne and Emmett”). Emmett Till was a young boy who was murdered (during the) Civil Rights era (in 1955), black young man. And Anne Frank was murdered in the—she died in (1945) a concentration camp during the Holocaust. And Janet Cohen wrote this amazing play, which is not depressing it actually is in some ways uplifting, of the two of them having a conversation with each other. And the reason why NYPD in the past has used this play is because they want their recruits to be empathetic to the people that they serve, and they really understand the power of theater as a way to teach about empathy. So that's another example. Also in New York, the public library has this really cool program for new citizens on teaching how to learn history. So this is a really cool thing. They do it all through famous paintings in American history. And what they found is because people are attaching what they're learning to this really cool visual, a famous painting, they remember the history lessons so much better and do so much better on the test, the citizenship tests. Those are just a couple of examples, in real life, how the arts make it a real difference in learning. 01:06:57.000 --> 01:07:24.000 Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Just from a professor who actually implements some of these things here, and obviously beyond as you mentioned earlier, it's— I've always valued the, being immersed in arts and classes, so thank you for for doing that. I feel like it's probably your responsibility that I've gotten some of the classes I've gotten. 01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:24.956 Aw, thanks. 01:07:24.956 --> 01:07:46.000 Yeah, of course. (brief interruption in recording) Okay. So earlier you were mentioning music was how you got people's stories out. I was, I'm particularly want to ask about why was it so important to get people's stories out? Like what about their stories mattered? 01:07:46.000 --> 01:10:59.000 Yeah. So to get the stories out meant that people in the West could then use those stories as a way to highlight the human rights abuses that were going on. And by highlighting it, it was harder for the Soviets then to imprison or to disappear people, because if people in the west knew about you, you would have a much better possibility of actually getting a visa to leave. If people didn't know about you, it would be easy to, say, “Eh,” for the Soviets to do whatever they wanted. I, you know, at the time we're doing this, oral history is at, you know, a crazy point in American history with Trump being the president only for a couple months. And already there's been people who have disappeared or been taken off the street or out of classroom, a classroom. And so what we found, even in our time in history, keeping those people's names and what happened to them front and center means that there's less of a possibility of something horrible happening to them. In the case of a family from New York, it was a mom and three kids, and they were actually taken. I'm not sure if it was from their home or for, from school, but the school principal and the whole town, in this small town in New York, were so upset by this and so distraught. And these were folks who were in the process of having all of their paperwork correct. Had done nothing wrong. Well, the town spoke up in a way that was significant, and as of today, they're back in their homes. And so there is real power in making sure that others, or people in power are held to account. And that people, things don't happen to people without justification. Because when that happens, we really, as a people, are in a terrible, horrible place. Especially for the people who are taken and have done absolutely nothing wrong. So again, you've caught me at this, this moment in history where I see things that happened in the former Soviet Union or perhaps are happening in Russia today, happening here in the United States. It's just unconscionable. So, it makes what we did in my experiences, even more important as a story today. 01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:24.000 Absolutely. Do you think if you had spoken to yourself, as you were developing this code in which we talked about, would you have thought that Merryl would then be sitting in this room, in the state that this country is in? 01:11:24.000 --> 01:13:24.000 No. Never. And I think most people probably feel that way. My guess is even folks who supported Trump, or Republicans or whatever, I don't think anybody expected things to be as cuckoo, crazy, upside down, scary as they are in this particular moment. And I don't think, it makes me really wonder why, especially in the House of Representatives or the Senators, why it's taking so long for people to stand up. Especially when people's rights are jeopardized. We should be better than that. We should know better than that. Bullies should never win. If it takes even, you know, one person to one person or movements to really just crush things that shouldn't happen, then we have to rise up. I really feel that. And I also feel like in moments like this where people might feel so frightened or scared, maybe some people like what's going on, but I doubt it. It's also important not to get so caught up in everything that you can't find moments of joy. And that's where the arts also help us, or getting out of our heads. Or, for me, playing music and going to my boxing classes are moments where I'm not thinking about anything else. And boy, is that a self-resourcing tool. 01:13:24.000 --> 01:13:45.000 Right. Earlier you mentioned art as an escape, but then in the same breath, an escape from maybe awful times, but also in that escape you're learning tools or just learning different, gathering different skills that you can use elsewhere. 01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:47.000 Yeah, for sure. 01:13:47.000 --> 01:14:22.000 Yeah. well thank you again for sharing about music and how it can be applied to activism. I want to now talk about how you—sorry. Where that originates from. Earlier you were mentioning growing up and having activism in your family, or— 01:14:22.000 --> 01:17:23.000 Yeah. So, I think many people of my age who are Jewish, most likely their grandparents immigrated. So they came from very bad situations where they had to escape either the Holocaust or pogroms which were in Czarist Russia (Imperial Russia 1547 to 1917) or other countries where Jewish people were just— like in “Fiddler on the Roof,” come in and just destroy everything or it is just terrible. So when people came here, I think there was a sense of like, never again. And certainly after the Holocaust, “Never forget, never again” (a phrase that encourages people to denounce the Holocaust and other genocides) is something that's very important. But growing up, my parents were very attuned to that, a just society where people have opportunities. And so as a kid, my mom was very active in starting a chapter of the League of Women Voters in Massachusetts, which was, today, League of Women Voters is so important. It gives information to the public on different voting issues, and candidates. It’s a nonpartisan group. As a little kid, my mom would have me parade around our little town just outside of Boston. My dad put a, made a sandwich board and it said, “Follow me to register to vote.” So I remember those things. And then I grew up in the sixties. I was young in the sixties. I was born in 1959. During that time, we had the Vietnam War, and a lot of people were protesting against the Vietnam War. And my family, along with many, many other families in our little community joined up with the Unitarian Church (a sect of Christianity), who was very active in anti-Vietnam protests. And so that was part of my upbringing as well. And through Jewish groups, we also were always learning and figuring out issues of social justice. It was baked into my childhood, there's no question about it. That from a very early age, being someone who is active in society and was doing things to make a difference in a better world was part of, part of who I was. I, there was no escaping it, not that I would want to escape it— (Goldberg laughs) 01:17:23.000 --> 01:17:28.000 Right. Do you think it's ever too late to become— 01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:29.000 Never. 01:17:29.000 --> 01:17:30.000 Engaged? 01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:32.000 Never too late to become engaged. 01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:35.000 How does one start? 01:17:35.000 --> 01:18:08.000 I think by first just understanding that there are multiple sides to any picture. There are— it's really important to understand context and to learn and be curious, and always question things. So, especially now, just cause you see something on the internet doesn't mean it's true. As convincing as it may seem— 01:18:08.000 --> 01:18:09.000 With AI (artificial intelligence). 01:18:09.000 --> 01:18:11.000 And with AI, that— (overlapping dialogue) 01:18:11.000 --> 01:18:12.000 Oh, sorry, you were saying that-- 01:18:12.000 --> 01:20:40.000 Yeah, no, that's really, I mean— my daughter, who's twenty-six, uses AI all the time. And she's discerning. But yeah, you gotta really question things, you know? But it's really important to look at things from multiple lenses and to always keep a lens of fairness, of equity, of background. It's understanding that not everyone has had the same opportunity as other people, and that's no fault of their own. And I think one thing that's really lost in a lot of what's going on right now is again, a lack of caring. It matters that people are losing their jobs. It matters that someone who's doing research in pediatric cancer is able to continue doing that research. The lack of empathy in our society right now, or maybe not our society, but in our leaders, in the people who are in power, is shocking. And it is never too late for people to stand up. It's never too late to keep trying. It's never too late to vote people out. It's never too late to do something small or to do something big. What is a lesson that I've learned is that silence is being complicit. And so, we all have a role in our joint community of human beings to not be silent when we see something. I think the arts have given me more of that power. 01:20:40.000 --> 01:23:48.000 And of course, some of my experiences and my, the context of my background, some of the foundational things I learned as a kid give you, gave me— my mom went on to run for our local what was it, public authority, where you make decisions on like public housing and that kind of stuff. And I helped her campaign, and it was a really hard campaign because people used horrible anti-Semitic language, calling my mom a dirty Jew or this or that. Like out loud, right? And she ultimately lost her election. But then the governor, who was governor Michael Dukakis at the time, there was a opening on that same authority, and he appointed her. And I'll never forget, it's, even in that awful kind of context of what we experience, there was a upside. And there was some justice. But boy, all of that is a learning thing. It's people who are Jewish, people who are Muslim, people who are in minority groups aside from religions have to learn these lessons, sadly over and over. And yeah, it's not easy. On the other hand, there is a lot of power in understanding who you are and the camaraderie of others. In this particular moment, and this is again just saying, this is at this moment in happens with this interview, the weaponization of antisemitism or the cause of the Palestinian people is just horrible. And that's something that is, again, so important for people to understand the nuances. And not to use people against other people. I mean, human beings in Gaza who don't have food are not pawns of governments. They're human beings. People who are coming down on Jewish people, we are not pawns. There's good people, bad people, everything in between everywhere. We have to learn to work together and not to use people for other causes. I don't know. I'm a little bit on my high horse there, so (laughter). 01:23:48.000 --> 01:24:15.000 No, I agree and specifically with your, “We are not pawns.” We're human beings, and understanding humans with stories. So, thank you so much for sharing your story. I hope you're able to use this interview even just to share with your family. I'm sure they'd appreciate hearing all these stories to preserve them. 01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:25.000 Thanks. You know what, to bring it back around, I hadn't really thought about, but you're absolutely right. And what we did with, in the Soviet Union was bring out people's stories. 01:24:25.000 --> 01:24:29.000 Exactly. And just quickly, one last question. 01:24:29.000 --> 01:24:30.000 Yeah. 01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:43.000 The music and the code that you brought back, I'm assuming it was preserved, or their stories preserved, or like how does— because this interview will be preserved with Special Collections, so yeah, just curious. 01:24:43.000 --> 01:27:28.000 Yeah. So a couple of things. My, the code, we kept the code secret for almost thirty years. And it has come to light, and it came to light very serendipitously. I was at a dinner with someone I had never met, guy named Chuck Davis (runs the cybersecurity blog "Between the Hacks") and his wife, they were in cybersecurity. I had no idea about cybersecurity. He's telling me, “Oh, well cybersecurity, we do this, we keep this safe, blah, blah, blah.” And I said, “Well, it, this isn’t cybersecurity, but I've got a story.” And I told him the whole Soviet story, and he was like, “Oh my God.” And he immediately connected with people in cybersecurity. They have this ginormous conference once a year, and it's called RSA (RSA Security LLC, formed in 1982, is a computer and cybersecurity company that was named for co-founders Ron Rivest, Adi Shamir, and Leonard Adleman). And I don't remember what that stands for, but it's a cybersecurity conference. And I ended up being a keynote, and then I ended up becoming friends and doing a little work for the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency for the United States. Because the head of the, it's called CISA, at the time, her name is Jen Easterly, she obviously left when the government changed, she recognized also the power of the arts. And when you look, when you think about cybersecurity, at a very little level, it is, if you can distill it down, it's all about stopping very creative bad guys from doing very bad things. Well, how do you stop or get ahead of bad guys or gals doing bad things? You have to be more creative. You have to work well with each other. You have to think outside the box. And again, the arts give you those skills. That's, I've become very active in that world. But my music and my story has been on display at the NSA, National Security Agency, in (Wahington) DC at a cryptological museum. That's a national museum. It's at— on display in LA (Los Angeles) currently at Wende Museum, which is a Cold War museum. W-E-N-D-E, which is a fabulous museum in LA. And actually, in summer 2026, there'll be a book coming out on my Soviet experience co-authored with Vince Houghton, who is the director of the National Cryptological Museum for the NSA. So, we are co-authoring a book that will be published by HarperCollins (one of the largest English language publishing companies). So, yeah, pretty cool stuff. 01:27:28.000 --> 01:27:34.000 That's super exciting. Is it specifically based on your experience going to Moscow? Or— 01:27:34.000 --> 01:27:36.000 Yep. The whole Phantom Orchestra story. 01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:37.000 Okay. Right. 01:27:37.000 --> 01:27:59.000 And it includes background of what was going on at the time, which was how dangerous it actually was over there, because of the whole real spies. I mean, we were like little tiny spies, but not government seekers, nothing. But the real spies. It was the height of dangerous activity. 01:27:59.000 --> 01:28:12.000 Right. I consider you a spy, or like at least a story smuggler. Or something like that (Goldberg laughs and affirms) Because you were definitely—An espionage artist or something. 01:28:12.000 --> 01:28:14.000 Yeah. 01:28:14.000 --> 01:28:21.000 Yeah. Well, again, thank you so much for sharing your story. Yes, thank you. 01:28:21.000 --> 01:28:22.000 Well, thanks for having me. (overlapping dialogue) 01:28:22.000 --> 01:28:22.068 Of course. 01:28:22.068 --> 01:28:22.908 That was really great. 01:28:22.908 --> 01:28:23.908 Yeah, thanks. NOTE TRANSCRIPTION END ]]> In copyright video Property rights reside with the university. 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The researcher agrees not to record, reproduce, or disclose any Social Security number or other information of a highly personal nature that may be found. 0 https://archivesoralhistories.csusm.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml GoldbergMerryl_WilliamsAaron_2025-04-09_access.xml https://archivesearch.csusm.edu/repositories/3/resources/19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Goldberg, Merryl. Interview, April 9, 2025 Description An account of the resource Dr. Merryl Goldberg is a musician, author, and professor in the School of Arts at California State University San Marcos. She is the director of Center ARTES, which encourages artistic education for every student in California curriculum. In addition to being a founding member of the Klezmer Conservatory Band, Goldberg has toured internationally as a professional saxophonist. In combination to her musical skills, she devised a secret code using sheet music that helped smuggle stories out of the Soviet Union. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context SC027-078 Subject The topic of the resource California State University San Marcos. Center ARTES California State University San Marcos. Music California State University San Marcos. School of Arts Klezmer Conservatory Band Klezmer music Smuggling -- Soviet Union Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-04-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merryl Goldberg Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aaron Williams Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Boston (Mass.) San Marcos (Calif.) Soviet Union Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available California State University San Marcos University Library Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Rights Holder A person or organization owning or managing rights over the resource. Merryl Goldberg License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/">https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/</a> Activists and activism Art and artists CSUSM history History Department internship Jewish experience Women's experience