Arthur, Tomme. Interview August 8, 2019

Judith Downie: So today is August 8th, 2019 and this is Judith Downie, the Curator of the CSUSM Brewchive® with Tomme Arthur, founder and co-owner of Lost Abbey, the Hop Concept, Port Brewing, and myriad other projects that we're going to be asking about. So tell me, the purpose of this is to kind of record in one place things I've seen in a lot of places. You know, you've been very generous with your time with people mentoring and interviewing. And so this is for the Brewchive®, basically an overall history of your life experiences as a brewer, thoughts, things like that. So, we do have a list of questions here, which again I'll read them off, I may reword them a little bit and you are open to responding to them however you need. And I hope we have plenty of time that you've talked about things that maybe nobody's ever asked you.

Tomme Arthur: That would be fun.

JD: Yeah. So record these things for posterity. So, let's start with your background. To be clear, from what I've seen, you started home brewing in Arizona while you were in college and how did that start?

TA: So I am a native San Diegan. My family's three to four generations on both sides. Went to Saint Augustine High School. When I was in high school, I decided that I really liked the English language and I wanted to study English and felt that teaching was a path that I would probably take.

JD: Okay.

TA: And so I fell in love with Flagstaff as a campus and community. And the school at Northern Arizona University had a really good education teaching program. So that's how I ended up in Flagstaff. When I got to school, I met a family, last name is Gardner and, and their son, Tom. And I became very close and the Gardner family really was into beer and they were sort of my mentors to beer. And they said, 00:02:00you know, we're going to teach you about better beer. And of course, I was only 18 at the time, but you know, I wasn't gonna say no. And they kind of pushed me in this direction of here's what better beer looks like, tastes like. American beer, imported beer, Canadian, very English, you know, all the, all the different countries where a great beer would have come from. A lot of it at that time was imported of course.

JD: Right. Because really, you know, we're talking what the...

TA: 1991 and 95 was when I was in school.

JD: Okay. So there really wasn't much of a craft beer scene in Arizona I don't think.

TA: There were very few craft breweries in Arizona. In fact, there were no craft breweries in Flagstaff at the time. We ended up having three open up in my last year of school. But there were no craft breweries in Flagstaff and at that time. There was likely to be 10 or 15 probably in the entire state. But we've got a lot of regional beers. There was a lot of beer from Oregon, Washington, Northern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado beer. So there was some American craft. 00:03:00But mostly from very older players, you know, Sierra Nevada Anchor, Deschutes (Brewery), big, bigger breweries.

JD: And being that the craft beer scene in San Diego was still pretty young in that time period. Do you remember seeing anything from San Diego?

TA: No. In fact we, we actually talk about this a lot, that prior to Stone Brewing coming into San Diego, nobody actually sent beer outside of San Diego. Karl Strauss (Brewing) had beer in San Diego at the time and packaged in bottles. But they, I don't believe much of their beer, if any, was leaving the San Diego area. So my understanding is that it really wasn't until Stone opened their doors and shipped beer to Arizona, likely maybe Nevada, you need to ask them, where they crossed the state line and perhaps were one of the original new craft breweries to actually make beer to leave San Diego.

JD: Which is really interesting because I have in my pre-Prohibition research on San Diego craft brewing found Mission Brewing. They 00:04:00were brewing beer to supplement San Diego Consolidated Brewing, which is San Diego Brewing Company (today). They were San Diego Consolidated Brewing for a while and Arizona passed Prohibition in 1914, five years before National Prohibition and halted any shipment of even Hopski, which was a near beer Mission was brewing, into the state. They weren't even allowing that. And there was a big lawsuit and Mission Brewing lost and that was the contributing factor to the closure of Mission through that.

TA: They actually lost out on a nonalcoholic or near beer.

JD: Yeah. Hopski, and they didn't continue to brew that because J. H. Zitt, who was the president, the current owner of San Diego Consolidated Brewing had said ‘I will never brew anything but real beer.’ So he's the one who decided to close Mission. Because he actually owned it at the time because his father-in- law and brother-in-law, who had founded Mission, had walked away.

TA: Yeah, the old San Diego stuff is really interesting.

JD: Yeah, and it's a, it's an interesting kind of parallel between you being in Arizona and starting your interest in beer there and then coming back to San Diego. But I've also seen that you've noted that your favorite beers are Belgian style. What?

TA: I just find them to be very unique and I think that there's, there's a pretty, I guess when I first got started in brewing in my sort of craft foundation, they were the most unique things out there. And that, that today is not necessarily the case. There's so many new producers and people that have really taken the boundaries and, and stretched them and moved them in directions. I think ostensibly under a Belgian influence or sort of what amounts to be a Belgian artistry, but there's a lot more to it these days. And I just think that if you, if you become imaginative about beer, you have to look at what the Belgians did or were doing at that time. Technique wise, yeast wise flavors, just process things. Very unconventional via what, what would amount to be a very 00:06:00conventional sort of brewing, you know, take four malts or take four ingredients. You can, you used a lot of water and hops and that's beer. And then you look at what they do. And it's completely different.

JD: So you think the Belgians weren't constrained by the purity law that the Germans had and that's part of what led to their inventiveness?

TA: Yeah, I just feel like they as a group embraced different methodologies and, and that sometimes weren't easy. And those methods at least preserved flavors that couldn't be found in beer, again, conventional beer.

JD: Okay. Very interesting. So, onto your actual brewing experiences. You started home brewing? I read it was a homebrew kit...

TA: So the Gardner’s bought me a home brew kit early for my graduation. So, I was gifted it in January of 1995 and that's when we started homebrewing.

JD: Okay. And you didn't like the first beer you brewed?

TA: The first beer we brewed, it was a black style, you know, sort of a dry Irish Guinness-style stout, but it came out very thin and didn't taste like Guinness 00:07:00or anything. So it wasn't, it was not a good beer. But you know, I think the expectations were high and probably should have set the bar a little lower.

JD: Was this extract or all grain?

TA: It was extract for sure.

JD: Yeah. Because of course supplies even in the 90s, were still kind of hard to come by.

TA: Yeah, we were pretty lucky there was a homebrewer outpost in Flagstaff, so there was a store that sold ingredients that we could've, we could've started in an all-grain basis. But I was living in a house with four people and it just wasn't really, I didn't have the resources to go build a full all grain brewing system, with the plastic fermenters and you know, boiling on the stove top kind of stuff was definitely where it was at.

JD: Yeah, you got to start somewhere. So, then you came back to San Diego. Was that, what was the reason for coming leaving Arizona?

TA: So I graduated in June or May of 1995.

JD: So was this your bachelor's or your teaching credential?

TA: This was my bachelors of arts in just English. And at that point I didn't really want to stay in Flagstaff and I wasn't gonna attend grad school 00:08:00there. So, I moved back home and so I left. And when I got home I kind of kicked around a little bit trying to figure out what I was going to do and really didn't have a plan necessarily I was able to go back and live with my parents. And you know, the only requirement was that I find a job. So, I found a job and that's kinda how I got in the downtown life. My dad had a printing business when I was growing up, so I was very, very well trained and I worked in the campus print shop when I was in school. So, I applied for a printing job in a downtown San Diego business and I was commuting, taking the trolley from La Mesa down into downtown San Diego every day. And I happened to be reading want ads, just, it was all that was left in the newspaper at that point. And stumbled upon a brew pub opening that had an ad in the paper for cooks, dishers, all that stuff in it said assistant brewer and I circled it. And I walked over the next day at lunch and applied for a job. And that was actually Cervecería 00:09:00La Cruda.

JD: Right, with Troy Hojel? So, you actually opened Cervecería La Cruda in September of ‘96?

TA: No, they, they would have opened, I think it would've been March of 96 ‘cause we ended up, we attended the great American beer festival in September, October of 96 and then it closed. It was less than a full year. I think I was hired in April, May-ish. and then I wasn't there even for a full year.

JD: Yeah. I have, I have March ‘97 is when it closed.

TA: So I think it probably was mid April-ish I would've been hired in. We didn't even make it a full year.

JD: Yeah. This is the kind of thing I like because I have a very large Excel spreadsheet of every brewery from 1868 which was Chollas Valley Brewery through today. Whether they opened or closed, it never made it, pulled the license, whatever...

TA: So, how many different breweries have attempted to open? Are we in the three hundreds or?

JD: Well, my Excel spreadsheet also includes all the 00:10:00individual tasting rooms because generally they pull a separate ABC license. I'm up over 550 getting close to 600 I think, but I could certainly get back to you with how many tried and never even actually opened. I think there's a real object lesson there.

TA: I think the most interesting thing is that we operate that there's 160 or whatever right now that are active, but it's really interesting to know kind of how many have kind of opened and closed and opened and closed and where you know, you can say, okay, since prohibition we've had 208 that have tried or participated in this, in this scene.

JD: Yeah, because I break the whole history into three parts. There was a pre-Prohibition 1868 to 1919, 1919/1920 then 1933 to 1953 because Aztec, which had sold to Altes Brewing, closed and they were the last brewery operating post-Prohibition and then we didn't pick up again until the (19)80s so I can extract that 00:11:00information and get it to you because those numbers are always very powerful.

TA: Yeah. I just feel like it'd be interesting to say since Prohibition, there's been 208 licenses that were issued or over, you know--

JD: And then there were others that announced a name or announced that they were going to open and never even got around to pulling a license. You know, so I have, I have every single possible name of any business that ever said ‘we are going to be a brewery or a brew pub, or...’

TA: No one ever drops on in front of you and you say, haven't heard of it.

JD: Well actually not too long ago, I ran across one called the Royal Duffer. And that evidently they were contract brewing. They were in Carlsbad and they were like four golf buddies. And so they had beer for, again, I think it was less than a year. And I haven't been able to find out too much information from them, but I'm very alert to, ‘Oh, I don't think I've ever heard of that name before’ so this is the first one I've not heard of in a long time. So I think I'm pretty comprehensive. But yeah. 00:12:00Yeah, it's been interesting and a lot of work. But going back to Troy, is Troy still around?

TA: He is in somewhere in Colorado outside of Denver. In fact, I just talked to him the other day. He texted me, I think his cousin opened a brewery in Texas and he had a question or two.

TA: So yeah. He's in Colorado and doing the software.

JD: Okay. So he's no longer in the brewing business.

TA: No, actually he left the brewery business and ended up doing software in Northern California for a bit, I think, and then moved off to Colorado.

JD: Well, it's gotta be sad to watch your dream die especially so quickly.

TA: You know, it was a pretty aggressive life lesson, you know? It taught me a lot in the short time that we were into it. I still think that Troy is one of the best brewers I've ever met. And it would've been a really cool thing to see it succeed at, but certainly would've put me on a different life path, I think if it had. So I don't, I don't try not to, you know, revisionist history, that part of it. But the beers that he made and he was 00:13:00a very technical brewer, I think, I think it would've been, it would've added to the scene even more.

JD: Yeah. What actually happened? Was it just lack of sales?

TA: I think more than anything it was a bad, is a bad business model. I don't know if you know the story of Baja Brewing Company.

JD: I'm familiar with the name, but not really the story.

TA: So Baja Brewing Company opened up and they claimed to be the very first Mexican-themed brewpub in the United States. Now it was their claim to fame. But what happened is that the partners at Baja Brewing and the partners at La Cruda actually had a schism and they split. They were going to open the Baja Brewing Company together or something along those lines and they had a falling out and the partnership dissolved. And so these guys opened Baja Brewing Company and less than three or four months later Cervecería La Cruda opened up three blocks away. So the very first Mexican theme brewpub in this country opened up and three blocks later and three months and three blocks over the second one opened. So, very 00:14:00underfunded from the get-go. Very, it was a 13,000 square foot building at Forth and Island, you know, big, big building. Too much of it to just for the time I, I'd be nervous opening a 13,000 square foot building brewpub today. And you know, back when the Gaslamp was kind of still new and trendy and hot, I don't know what the rent was, but just overall a bad, a bad vision I think for what was going on.

JD: Ahead of its time. Really.

TA: Yeah. And the thing that's kind of crazy is that Cervecería La Cruda to them is a hangover brewery. So when you say ‘tengo la cruda’, that means I have the crud, I'm not feeling well. That's not a real great way to tell people you want to come here and drink. They opened up with a menu that they had sourced from the family that owned El Callejon in Encinitas. So, they had this really great, I would say deep, deep Mexican Sonoran source, you know, moles (sauces) and things. But that wasn't on anyone's radar with respect to craft brew at the 00:15:00time. So, good people, great, great opportunity. But not even something, that I think today, even if you attempted to tackle it, would probably work really well.

JD: So as you say, a real experience.

TA: Yeah, a lot I learned from, you look around and you see simplicity sometimes wins.

JD: Or slow growth. Planned slower.

TA: Or have more money than you think. Yeah.

JD: Somebody said to me one time something like, you need five times more than you think you do. And I would, I think that's true with any business really. But the expense of equipment and materials and everything and you just can't do it all yourself.

TA: No. You gotta be able to weather a lot of storms.

JD: And you know, with this, I know in September of 2016 I went to the craft beer conference up in Sacramento and I saw you speak there and you at that time, this is three years ago now, said that San Diego was already over-saturated, and you would not open up 00:16:00a brewery at this point in San Diego. And how many breweries have we had open up?

TA: Continues to be a head-scratching thing. Yeah. Well, we joke, I mean, we're here in San Marcos now. I've got three breweries within a one-mile stretch. Right. So yeah, that's just the way it is. Yeah.

JD: But you're each different. Accommodating everybody at some point. But so when La Cruda closed, you moved to White Labs for just a couple of months in yeast sales. Was that based because you knew about yeast?

TA: So White Labs had just kinda gotten their feet wet. So I remember the very first day when I was at La Cruda, one of the very first days I was at La Cruda. Chris White (founder of White Labs) walked in on a sales call. And so we were chatting and talking and at some point, and this is a part of my history that I don't remember all of that clearly, but I ended up moving in with them. I mean I was a roommate and I think there was a crossover point where I was working at La Cruda, but I already moved into their house. Cause he and Lisa had an empty room. 00:17:00I needed a place to stay. And then when La Cruda was on its way to be closing it became kind of obvious that I could help them in their infancy of their company with some just R and D and just different trialing and things like that.

TA: You know, I had met a lot of brewers in Arizona at that time. So Chris said, well, why don't you come help me just kind of knock down some doors and you know, we just need somebody that can walk in and kind of talk about this in a very brewer friendly kind of way. So my goal was I was kind of like an ambassador really. You know, I didn't really do a lot of pure sales but my job was to talk about it and explain how my experience with different yeasts and temperatures and things like that. So it was kind of just yeah, I think it was more of a product, product knowledge and ambassador at that point.

JD: Was there any conversation at that time about opening up a tasting room for yeast labs?

TA: No. No. I mean, maybe Chris had it, but it you know, that was a pretty, it was a long time ago and there wasn't really a sense of 00:18:00yeast as a business outside of the yeast business. I don't think there was sort of that auxiliary layer to it. I'm sure Chris would have liked to have had a bunch of beers on tap, but I, I would imagine if he had had that thought back then that they would have probably just wanted 10 beers on tap for their customers to come sample them, but not necessarily not, not really treat it as an educational function for the consumer as much as an educational experience for a brewer who maybe hadn't worked a certain use and things like that. I mean there's just an enormous amount of yeasts that have been banked since we started. Since I got my first job in 1996 there's been an enormous amount of new yeast that had been added. So, they need an avenue to show people what those yeasts do.

JD: And back then too, you probably had a lot of brewers, even professional brewers, would be how I see it. That didn't really understand a lot about the hops that were available. The yeast that was available, you know, cause a lot of them had, were coming out of the homebrew experience and you know, all of a sudden here's more stuff you need 00:19:00to know.

TA: If you go back and look at it ‘95, ‘96 to, so that time, I mean we're talking about a dial up modem, you know, we're talking about low internet speed, we're talking about not...

JD: A lot of people, not even having computers or knowing how to use it.

TA: Not even a lot of Information online. Frankly. I mean you couldn't, you could not do all the kind of information that's out there today. And, and past that, a lot of the information that did exist in book format was highly technical through the ASBC (American Society of Brewing Chemists) and the big brewers. And then what was available that had been written about the sort of homebrew level and medium brewery. There wasn't a lot of medium brewery stuff in there, so you were getting a lot of books on how to brew ales, but they had this really big English, you know, sort of basis to them. Cask condition, real ale ingredients weren't American in their basis. So there was no ability to look up and say, Oh, how do I use this German hefeweizen yeast? You know, how do I, how much do I pitch it, what temperature, how does it behave? And none of that information existed.

JD: So a lot of technical stuff.

TA: Yeah. even just simplistic technical. What's the right temperature?

JD: And around here San Diego was still something of a Coors town that's San Diego was test market for a couple of different, for Coors Light and for Herman Joseph's 1868 and you know, so really do you have much of a market for...

TA: In fact, we joked about it here. This was the best, I think this was the best-selling Coors light town when I took in, when I got into brewing, this was the number one Coors Light in the country.

JD: Yes, it was.

TA: Well that explains to you, you know, where we're, where we were and where we came from. And on top of that you had all the import beers too, right? You still had Coronas and Pacifico and the Modelos in the world doing very well here at that time too. So yeah, it was a, it was a long ways to the top.

JD: So you weren't at White Labs for very long before you were hired by Pizza Port. Pizza Port just had the one location then, right?

TA: They had the one location in Solana Beach. Vincent (Marsaglia), Gina (Marsaglia) had been partners in the Carlsbad Public House with a guy named Brett. I think his last name was Stamp.

JD: Tetley Ridden, I, it's a hyphenated name. (correct name is Redmayne-Titley)

TA: Yeah. And then he became a, they, they had a falling out with Carlsbad Public House and they were in, they were in the process of converting the Public House, which is the Pizza Port in Carlsbad in the village into the Pizza Port at that time. So I was, I was brought into assist on Solana Beach because the head brewer was going to go have shoulder surgery and then they were supposed to move me up to Carlsbad to take over the production of the brewing and Carlsbad once, once he came back. So there was almost a second Pizza Port in line at that time. So they were, they were in the home stretch of the construction to convert it from the Public House to Pizza Port, which opened in July of 1997 so they were real close. And I always like to tell the story ‘cause I think it's very fascinating to me. I'd never stepped foot in Pizza Port before I got interviewed for the job. So I had no real perceived concept or notion of what exactly they did or what they didn't do.

JD: Okay. And so you were an assistant brewer then? You weren't head brewer?

TA: Yeah. Eddie Class, I think his last name was Classic. He was the head brewer at that time. And Vince was going to be the head brewer in Carlsbad when they opened. So yeah, Eddie was in charge of the brewery in Solana Beach and he was gonna go, I think I was going to have rotator cuff surgery and take about three months off. And then when he came back I was supposed to go take the job in Carlsbad.

JD: Okay. but you, you obviously that didn't quite work out that way, but you were promoted to Director of Brewery Operations in June of 2005.

TA: Yeah, that was a short stint ‘cause we were getting ready to open this place too. So yeah.

JD: So you already knew you were going to be moving on?

TA: We were having conversations at that point about how to get to here. We, I think in June it kind of was a collective. They terminated Kirk McHale, who was the brewer in Carlsbad in June of 2005 and then 00:23:00there was the San Clemente location, Carlsbad location, and Solana Beach. And I was asked to kind of tackle all three of them at the same time, make sure that they were more or less on the same page, collectively, kind of get them aligned. And then we also knew that we were having conversations about a new partnership and trying to build up the partnerships so that we could get this, this facility put into our orbit.

JD: Okay. So that leads me into the founding Port Brewing in partnership with Vince and Gina. And you know, you have Port Brewing, you have Lost Abbey, you have the Hop Concept and I've also seen that you're involved in an Arizona brewery called Moto Sonora. So can you explain the structure of everything?

TA: Yeah. When we started talking to Stone Brewing about buying this facility from them you know, my love of Belgian beers was pretty strong and I knew that 00:24:00we wanted to make some things out here that were very barrel aged, Belgian influenced and all that. And we had this, Vince had the idea for the brand called the Lost Abbey. So we were very, very keen on the fact that we knew that was going to happen. There were a lot of beers at Pizza Port that were being produced that needed to kind of stretch and grow and needed to get from get out from under just being a pub-based beer. And that allowed, you know, people who had been asking for more, you know, basically Pizza Port beer. And that's where the Port Brewing came from. So the Port Brewing beers, many of them when we opened our doors here came from Solana Beach recipes that I had produced, Hop 15, Santa’s Little Helper, Shark Attack. We brought the Wipe Out recipe over from Carlsbad and those beers had a lot of legacy towards the pubs and, and kind of, you know, grew them out of that realm. But we knew that there'd be the Port brand’s very West coast centric, you know, kind of that Ballast Point, Coronado, Green Flash, Stone kind of mentality. You know, higher hopping rates, you know, sometimes imperial, things like that. We always knew that that wasn't really 00:25:00that wasn't going to be our principal focus in the sense that we were going to have the two brands, but we also knew that having the two brands side by side allowed us to walk in and have a wide range of beers without having everything be a Lost Abbey beer or Port Brewing beer.

JD: Okay. And then the Hop Concept is a fairly recent addition to the portfolio.

TA: So a few years ago I walked into a bar and all the beer names on the wall really just confused me. There were so many new beers and I had no idea what they tasted like. And I didn't want to be a bother to the bartenders and try to, you know, ask them this or that. And I'm not an Untappd person. I don't really use digital media to tell me what I should be drinking. So, it kinda came back to we wanted to create a line of beers that were very fresh and simplistic in their makeup. So, the Hop Concept beers, we had a line called the Hop Freshener series and they were basically we had ‘Dank and Sticky’ and ‘Citrus and Piney and ‘Lemon and Grassy’ and ‘Tropical and Juicy’. And it was essentially taste and smell. And we, all we were trying to do was tell the consumer 00:26:00and the bartender, this is what you should expect the beer to taste like, or smell like. And it was a quick, straightforward deliverable and it was meant to be a, I use the word simple, but simple deliverable like you knew what you were getting. We were setting you up to understand how that beer should taste and behave.

JD: Yeah, it does seem like naming beers because they do have to be registered names or whatever, becomes a bigger and bigger challenge. And in just looking at a name on the board, you frequently have no idea of what that beer really is. So, something like this where you're going back to the basics, this is what you're going to get. I think must be very attractive.

TA: I thought so. I thought the cleanliness of it for us, which was just straightforward and nomenclature and deliverable, like this is this is what you can expect and...

JD: Your label designs are very clean and very clear. Where Lost Abbey looks much more European, Medieval in a lot of ways.

TA: And we went out and we went out and hired a firm for the first time to really, we told them this is what our vision is 00:27:00and this is why we're doing it this way, but we want you to make sure we produce this with a very crisp look to it. And they, they certainly executed that and I, and I think that's always been a strength of that brand.

JD: Yeah. Let me ask you a little bit about the latest venture, Moto Sonora. I read that this was evidently your college roommate you are in partnerships with and his younger brother. And, of course, this is taking you back to Arizona.

TA: It is. Tucson, not Flagstaff. I wish it was in Flagstaff, but I'm going to come to like Tucson cause it's closer. But yeah, my, it's kind of ironic because this was a random sort of thing back when, when I was in college with Jeff. Jeff really wasn't a big beer drinker but it turns out but his brother Jeremy really fell in love with craft beer and the two of them kind of decided that they have a high value for the city of Tucson. They loved that area. They've got deep roots in the community there. 00:28:00Their family, the DeConcini family's been a, been a big part of the Arizona scene and they just wanted to do this project. And I started talking to them as a consultant and just kind of saying, let me, let me hear what you're thinking. And then they said, well, maybe you could spend some more time on it. And I said, yeah, I've got the time to do that.

TA: Let's, let's do this. So, I am coming in as one of the co-founders on that project. Port Brewing is not involved in the sense that we're not invested in it.

JD: That was a question I had.

TA: We're not, Port Brewing is not an investor in the company. Although I have permission with my partners to supply as many ingredients and things, you know, that we can, we can work to make sure that the beers there are at the highest, you know, sort of capacity. And if it means we're buying the hops and selling them hops and things like that, that's gonna happen. You know, I see it as potentially a training ground where if one of our brewers wants the position when we get going or they, you know, we want to move people out that way. But this is not anything more than a co-founding situation where I have the freedom to go tight, 00:29:00you know, take on other projects. I, I kind of liken it to chefs having multiple locations or bar owners having, you know, other projects and things. But I'm not moving to Tucson and I'm not going to be the head brewer there. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to establish what we're doing and push the company in the right direction and make sure that we become a really valuable part of that community. We've been definitely looking forward to the, just being involved in it and you know, a different beer scene at the same time.

JD: Well, this kind of jumps over some of the questions I have because it leads into the amount of mentoring and work with newer brewers and the collaborations you do with the more established brewers. You are renowned in the industry for how people can come to you and pick your brain and you support and mentor in so many different ways. I see you as a one-person campaign to ensure craft beer success. And, and this is in comparison with efforts like Stone's True Craft where there were more financial assistance. 00:30:00Have you always been a remarkable mentor? It sounds kind of like, you know, you're, you're thinking to become a teacher.

TA: Yeah. I think that's a big part of it, right? It's a, it's a sense of, you know, that shared piece. You know, I remember very, very early in my, in my Solana Beach days, I wanted to make a Saison-style beer and I needed to find somebody who could give me the answer for how much ginger I was supposed to put in the beer. Cause I wanted to make the beer with some ginger. And there weren't many places where I could turn to. And I picked up the phone one day and I called the owner of Left-Hand Brewing Company, his name was Dick Doore. And I said, Dick, you guys have this amazing Juju, ginger pale ale. I love it. Would you be willing to share that information with me? And he did. And he, you know, and we'd barely met. And it was one of those things that, okay, yeah, that's how the industry works. Right. And you know, this is something that I think Troy had put in my head back in the day was like, there are the right people to be talking to and then there's the wrong people. And the wrong people are the ones that don't freely exchange the information, 00:31:00or they don't, they don't try to push it uphill. And for the longest time we had so much work to do in this town to push the level uphill that we collectively had to talk about it. I mean, everybody I think that you would interview would have the similar sense of if we didn't all work together then we wouldn't have gotten to where we were.

JD: Isn't that the principle behind the San Diego Brewers Guild?

TA: Of course, you know, the very first Guild meeting was out at La Cruda. So yeah. Yes, for sure that the Guild, you know, I think we were the very first city in the country to have its own brewers guild. And that, that's kind of a, you know, a feather in the cap for what I think, you know, the old, the old guard or the people that really did, you know, hunker down back in the day was that there was a true sense that there was going to be something really good about the scene here. But we had to work really hard at it. So, I've always liked that conversational aspect of it. I believe that I can, I can ask the right questions with friends and people and, and if I can turn around and get that information back out, it makes sense. So yeah, why not? I mean, there's, there's very little, I guess I don't feel very 00:32:00competitive or threatened by it by that, you know, that dialogue or that sharing of information.

JD: I think that's, I mean, I, I'm on certain, like the San Diego Plexus Facebook group and stuff, and your name comes up and everybody says, Tomme Arthur, he's the person to talk to. He is the god locally, you know, I mean, your name is always used in very positive way, which I think really speaks to the efforts that you have put into the community and supporting, especially newer brewers, but also working with other established brewers and not treating it as competition but treating it as we can all be better.

TA: And I think the one thing that's kind of maddening these days, and this is, this is my personal soap box, is that there's a lot of people that are collaborating on things. And I'm, I'm very concerned about this new sense of collaborating because I don't know that it's doing much other than it's bringing people together. And then you say, well what did we change and what did we do? And I'm like, okay. But I think the collaborative narrative of old was we collaborated on something because it was going to be something demonstratively different 00:33:00than we could have done singularly. And I'm not sure that much of that's going on today. So, when we collaborate with an old guard or with someone new, we're, we're really trying to have a sense of purpose. And I hope that people continue to realize that just collaborating with someone for the sake of sales isn't always, I guess from where I come, from isn't always the best course of action.

JD: Again, going to your mentoring, have you had the opportunity to open doors for specific groups? And I'm thinking women or minorities or people with disabilities, people, you know, because the standard concept of a brewer is a male, white guy, you know, I mean that just still is. It's not that way anymore. But have you had opportunities to work with or speak to groups to encourage them?

TA: I was thinking about this the other day because you know, I look at our staff, it is generally mostly male. We have had a few female employees on the beer side in the past and they've been phenomenal employees. 00:34:00And I was thinking the other day that we haven't done enough in our world to cultivate that specifically. And I know the Brewers Association is pretty keen on promoting diversity and things these days. And I'm wondering as an educational mentor, et cetera, where I should be looking to do some of those things or how I get involved in that. You know, where, where can I be impactful in that, in that space. And I don't know if it's through the university or through, you know, there's a big Latino population up here in San Marcos and Vista. But clearly, you know, being white and being white isn't always the best thing. With respect to trying to, you know, we've got to find new, new people to energize and really enthuse about what we do. And preaching to the 40-year-old male white choir isn't, isn't the best place to live in.

JD: Well, I don't know if you're aware of Border X (Brewing), which is of course down in Barrio Logan has, is sponsoring a women's beer club called Mujeres Brew Club. I'm sorry, I, my Spanish 00:35:00isn't that swell. And they invited me to be their first speaker and they're doing a meeting each month on a different aspect and at the end they are going to brew a beer at Border X. And the women that are in there, many of them don't know even beer styles. I mean, one woman evidently asked the question, what's an IPA? And so, you know, and it's, it's a safe space for women and it does have a large number of Latina women, which I think is phenomenal because maybe some of these will become brewers and there are women are working in the beer industry in San Diego who are also members.

Some of them are speakers and some are just attending the meetings because they're always eager to learn more. So maybe reaching out to, or you know, helping sponsor a group like that or Pink Boots Society (international organization for women and non-binary people in the fermentation industry. The first chapter was founded in San Diego.) of course, you know, is always looking for speakers and educational opportunities and things. But you know, there's a growing 00:36:00presence, but it is hard to, when women are so scattered or you know, like you say it's underrepresented with the minorities or you know, and there are certain positions that probably someone with a physical disability couldn't perform in a brewhouse, what could they do? Can they be the quality control people, things like that. So, it seems like there are places that we need to increase.

TA: Yeah. It's interesting because I was thinking about this again the other day. I was like, we just don't have that many women apply for jobs. It's, it's you know, I, you know, I have a, a fairly good amount of men working, you know males, working on the floor. But I can't remember the last time I saw an application come in for a brewing position from a woman. So somehow the outreach needs to get further than, you know, I'm talking entry-level packaging jobs, things like that. There's, there's clearly, you know, there's, it's not a bias in our world. They're just not coming and knocking down our door. So somehow we have to convince them that this isn't, this is a pretty good place 00:37:00where they could, you know, they can, they can find careers and homes.

JD: Well, if you do want to advertise positions, I have a couple of resources. I can push things out to Pink Boots San Diego for one. And then there's another Facebook page of women interested in beer. Some are working in the industry; some are maybe looking to get into the industry. And of course, maybe pushing the word out to the EngiBeering® program at Cal State San Marcos. ‘Cause there are, there's at least a couple of women enrolled in that program. But yeah, it's hard because there aren't many women available to bring in. But then, you know, we do have a, you know, a fairly strong Hispanic population in this area. So, you know, why can't we leverage that? And it's finding those points of contact. That's a, that's a continual problem that I have seen. Also, to kind of jump back, I mentioned Stone's True Craft effort, which, you know, obviously died. It was a great idea to help small, small breweries with financing to where they didn't have to sell themselves to big beer. What did you think of that idea when you 00:38:00thought, heard of it?

TA: You know, I had a lot of friends that took meetings with them. I mean, at least on the surface I was told, you know, Hey, we've, we've gone and talked to them about it. I think the biggest challenge was, is that that was at a time when there was a lot of unrealistic expectations about valuations and what, what things were worth or how, how long term, you know, how companies would be out, people would work long term together. You know, it's an interesting model because this business is such a, almost a loner thing. Like most people open their own little brewery and then at some point you need more investment in that comes with a lot more triggers and kinds of parameters and stuff in some small breweries never outgrow the small, you know, model. They, I'm the single proprietor, not me. They are a single proprietor, ownership kind of environment and you know, they borrow money from the bank and that's what they get and that's what they want to be. You know, there's a very passionate pursuit for them. And then there's the big business side of it, which says if you're going to scale and grow and you know, buying equipment is not 00:39:00cheap and putting concrete in the ground and copper piping and just every single thing you could think of.

JD: And the length time it takes to just deal with all the permitting within the city, within the state, with the ABC (California’s Alcoholic Beverage Control agency in charge of licensing alcohol production, distribution and sales.)

TA: And the regulatory. Yeah. All of those pieces. So I applaud Greg for, and Steve, for putting the platform together. You know, the, I think the biggest hurdle for a lot of people is just how, how do you entrepreneurially sign up for something like that? Right? It's, it's, you know, it's a different, it's a different (unclear) in you. You're talking about an environment where you went from being in charge of your own facility to now having new investment that comes with different, again, different triggers and things. I think it's interesting cause nobody signed up to do it and I don't know if that was that the metrics didn't align or how that was. But I know a lot of people took meetings and so I guess the question is, is what, what was, what was unrealistic on both sides for, for that, how come it, how come they didn't get anybody to, to partner with?

JD: Yeah. I'm, I don't know who took meetings, but it would be interesting to talk to them to ask them why they didn't pursue that, and did they find an alternative that worked better for them. So that's on my list of things to do. Since we've mentioned big beer, have you ever been approached by big beer with an offer to purchase you or to work with them in some sort of way?

TA: No. In the 13 years that we've been open no one has put an offer sheet on the table and said, we want to buy you for XYZ dollars or otherwise. We have met with some family offices, venture people, people, you know, my thing is we'll take any meeting just to say hi. Mostly to learn about what people are looking for, what they're doing. But pretty emphatically we've never actually been offered, no one's ever actually offered to purchase us in, in a minority capacity and majority otherwise. So no.

JD: Good. 00:41:00I won't ask you what your response would be, but do you think that maybe partly it's because, I don't want to say you do extreme beers, but you do less run-of-the-mill beers in many cases that might just be something that big beer would not find attractive.

TA: If we live in a fringe world, we're, you know, we're sort of known as a super-premium producer and we have a lot of niches that we feel from barrels and sour. You know, they've, big breweries have a need in sometimes to do that, but they, they, I think they've found those elsewhere and they want scale and they want all kinds of things. You know, San Diego is an interesting model, right. We had Ballast Point sold, you know, Green Flash had sold and we've had a lot of big, bigger companies come through and, and, and have taken investments. And so I don't know if there was any real need beyond, I think big beer 00:42:00came and found what they needed from San Diego. I'd be surprised if, if there's any big beer-ness left in San Diego. I mean, I say that, and you know, we'll see. But you know, I, I don't, I don't really feel like that the big beer is kind of be knocking down the doors in San Diego anytime soon.

JD: They got their toe in.

TA: Potentially because of the desaturation and just some of the difficulties that they might experience. ah, it's a, it's a whole, it's a whole run of things and it really has to do with, you know, where can they, where can they scale and where can they find their return on their investment and things like that.

JD: Yeah, no, that's what they're looking at is a bottom line.

TA: It is 100% about how much can they make on what they're buying it. Yeah.

JD: Because your beers are not run of the mill Coors-type beers, not to bash Coors, but just, you know, as an example, where did you get your early inspirations? I mean, you, you said you like the Belgians and you were exposed to a wide variety of European and, and what craft beer was 00:43:00made in the US. But things like oak aging and sour beers, were those things that you were exposed to early on or were those things that you found out later while you were experimenting?

TA: Yeah, it was early. I remember, I remember my first Chimay Red. I remember my first Guinness and I vividly remember the very first Rodenbach I ever had. And I, you know, the Rodenbach I think hit me more than anything else in that really portend, you know, that really does explain why, you know, like, Oh my God, that's okay. I know there's weird beer out there, but this is way to the left, right? This thing is way, way downstream from anything I'd had at that point. You know, I was, when on the four years I was in college, I was sampling a lot of beers and then I continued to continue to buy beer. And, and it's just when you get one that's put in front of you and you say, wow, how did they do that? And that was kind of the, the aha that was the light bulb, I think was, was that first Rodenbach. That somebody who's living in a world where that, that's so to the extreme and delicious. 00:44:00But why can't, why can't I, why can't I think about beer like that? And that's, that definitely pushed me in that direction.

JD: Well that's great to have such an open mind. Do you remember who, if anyone else was doing things like barrel aging and sour beers or anything when you started doing it?

TA: Vinnie (Cilurzo, founded Blind Pig Brewing in Temecula, CA before moving to Northern California to found Russian River Brewing.) and I joke about this a lot cause Vinnie at Russian River and I are pretty good friends and a lot of it comes back to when we first picked up oak barrels and really got into that, you know, late 19, late 1990s, you know, the first batch of cuvée that we were making and they were making beer called Temptation. There was very little of that going on and I knew Belgian had (inaudible. in the market. But out West there weren't a lot of people making sour beer in barrels. And so we had to just kinda kick the can on how to do it. Talk collectively. Again, it got back to, we were not we did not, you know, you know, withhold the secrets. And we talked a lot about the what ifs and things and that I think was a big, big part of the success was just, okay, how are we going to do this in this environment? 00:45:00Because again, you couldn't open a book and read how to do it. Today you can open plenty of books.

JD: Or just find it out there on the web.

TA: I mean, you pick up the phone and call someone, but then back then it isn't, you know, how do you manage your barrel program or what do you, how do you do this? It was, well, I'm going to try, I'm going to try this. Okay. That sounds like that. That seems reasonable to me.

JD: Oh, so you can't think of anybody specifically locally though? You, I mean, Vinnie, to me, is still local as they were nearby--

TA: For sure, it’s California.

JD: but I'm thinking in San Diego.

TA: You know, I don't know if we, I always say we, being Pizza Port. I don't know if we were the first ones to make intentionally sour beer in San Diego. I don't recall running into it anywhere at that point. But for the sake of clarity, I never say we were the first ones because I truly don't know. There was some oak aging going on the guys at Rock Bottom (Restaurant and Brewery) in La Jolla specifically ‘cause I got barrels from them. AleSmith (Brewing Company)I think was right about that same time, 00:46:00‘97, ’98-ish where they were getting into having some bourbon barrel kind of things going on.

JD: But that was Skip (Virgilio founded AleSmith Brewing and later sold to Peter and Vicky Zien.).

TA: Skip doing that. There was not a lot of sour beer in California at that point. So, or even San Diego can that I can recall.

JD: I’m glad sour beer’s around. Okay. You just mentioned cuvée. And I've seen it said that that is your favorite beer.

TA: Perhaps.

JD: Yeah. Perhaps.

TA: It’s the only one that bears my name (Cuvée du Tomme). How's that?

JD: That's true. That's true. On the other hand, is there a beer that you ever made that you didn't care for, but everybody else said, no, we've got to put this on tap.

TA: Ooh, that's a damn good question.

JD: Did they, did it actually sell well?

TA: There is a running joke here at the brewery. We made a beer a few years ago called Spontaneous Cheer. And the Spontaneous Cheer was a peach sour and it was actually 00:47:00spontaneously fermented. So we, we've got some spontaneous fermentation barrels and things that we do from time to time and we have a large library of barrels. We have over a thousand oak barrels full of now and we made this batch of beer and it tasted pretty darn good. That being said, I struggled with it personally because it didn't really manifest our house culture. We have a very strong sour beer sense. Like there's a terroir in our world. You can taste the Lost Abbey beer and it's white grapey and it's stone peach fruit. And you can tell that there's something about the way that we blend in and package. And that beer had none of it, even though it was a peach beer. But that's because all of the cultures came from the spontaneous portion. And so, people were like, you have to release this beer. And I can't in good conscience release it because you could open it in a tasting room in Texas and you'd have no idea it came from us and what's the point of that? So that's probably 00:48:00the one in this environment that had garnered a lot of energy I would say, okay, that's not what I was, didn't hate the beer, just wasn't keen on it. Bearing the name Lost Abbey being sour and didn't, didn't exude us.

JD: And so you have not brewed it again since.

TA: No, we haven’t. Even though we likely could, and people would freak for it, but it doesn't, again, it gets really to the point of, you know, we're really trying to have that identity in a big sea of imitations. I would think that that was probably a one-and-done. I'd be surprised if it came back.

JD: Okay, if I ever see an unopened bottle of it, I'll know that that's truly special.

TA: So we never bottled it. That's the only bottle that I think, I mean it was, it was literally only one oak barrel, so 50 gallons. But I think we only bottled it. I had a friend who had a baby and there was a request, but I, there shouldn't, there shouldn't be any bottles of that out in the world. There are, they probably aren't real.

JD: Yeah. Well, we'll know that they are shams. What was your very first award 00:49:00for brewing?

TA: That's a good question.

JD: You've had so many.

TA: I know like, let's see. We had strong ale in 19... Well, okay. The very first award that I know for certain was the gold medal that I participated in at La Cruda. We won a gold medal (awarded at the Great American Beer Festival) for the Makanudo Porter, but that was not my beer and I was not the recipe generator. So I would say probably a beer that we brewed at Pizza Port and that was part of the Strong Ale Festival in ‘97 or ‘98. And then at that point we started entering the Real Ale Festival in Chicago or some California State Fair stuff. We did not win a GABF (Great American Beer Festival.) award until 1999, 2000.

JD: Shame on them.

TA: It took me a little while to figure out where our beers sort of fit in the competitive landscape.

JD: The pantheon of beers.

TA: So once I figured that part out, we got on a roll pretty, quickly.

JD: That does seem to be a little bit of a challenge cause I'm a member of the Society of Barley 00:50:00Engineers when they talk about submitting for homebrew (competitions). Sometimes there are quite intense discussions about where a particular beer, that somebody’s having everybody sample, what category that fits into. And you do then deal with judges’ taste buds. Which, you know, it's a constantly moving landscape.

TA: I’ve been a GABF judge since ‘99-ish. And that has afforded me an enormous amount of opportunities to watch the process, participate in it, and even potentially piss off brewers and people who maybe didn't, you know, like the way that it went. It's fascinating to watch the competition evolve at a table relative to the dialogue, the strength of the judges, the opinions of the judges. Even just the sheer age of the, the judging has come from, there were only this block of people that used to do it and now it's expanded and now the categories have morphed and they're different. And the, you know, 00:51:00we talk about it a lot because it's, it's interesting to see how difficult, first of all, there's so many more beers, but the sheer, the sheer perspective that people are operating under relative to, I've had these style beers or I've never been think about, okay, I'm supposed to judge a Kölsch-style beer, but I'm a judge and I've never been to Cologne and had the six beers from there that are the, that are the standards.

Well, how do you judge that? Like that's, that's a, it's an interesting scenario because you're being asked to read this against what was written, how this is how a standard should taste. Yet. You've never been in situ and had that environmental condition.

JD: Right, with that terroir and all everything else, all those factors that work into it.

TA: 100 percent. I do agree with you that there's, one of the things about entering competitively is that there's so many different places beers can fit and sometimes it's really environmentally like time and place. 00:52:00Sometimes the beer exudes more oak and sometimes it doesn’t, and it wants to be in an oak category, but it can't cause it has brett (industry jargon for Brettanomyces, a fungi used to sour beer.) We did a sampling a couple months ago back in early July and I think we went through 20 different beers for GABF trying to get down to the five that we wanted to send. And in order to do that we had to kind of pick the beers. We'd, you know, we brought out all the beers that we thought were really well done and then we had to go say, well that would fit here, wouldn't fit here, but it probably fits best here, but we don't want to send that beer there because we already have another one that wants to go there. So, you don't wanna compete against yourself either?

JD: Now are you limited to five beers for competition?

TA: Of late? They've been in the four to five range. Okay. A few years ago, you could send up to eight and prior to that it was kind of unlimited. But when it went from eight to five it got a lot harder.

JD: Yeah. But it just seems like, I mean you can see what thousands of entries that seems like and yeah--

TA: I think there's over 8,000 beers that'll be judged. But we always say this, it's like if, 00:53:00if back when we were going to sending eight beers, I don't know if we make eight world-class beers every fall. Right? So how many are really well done and how many of them are like, you know, that far up the channel. I think we make eight great beers but are they going to sit at the table and really, really compete. But I think when you have eight versus four, your odds are better. But perhaps being in categories that some, some years are strong, and some years are weak, is, is where it kind of comes from.

JD: Yeah. But you're also trying to be selective. I'm sure there are people that “I'll send as many beers as I can to increase my odds of winning an award.” Because of course the GABF awards still mean a lot.

TA: Yeah. There was a year, I know this to be true, where at least one or two breweries that don't need to be, and they're not from San Diego, sent somewhere between 30 to 50 beers. And didn't win an award. And these are pretty good breweries. So, you know, you're talking about the shotgun approach. You hit the side of the 00:54:00barn. But it was pretty interesting to see that they didn't win. You know, the years of late where we haven't, we haven't managed to win an award. You know, we look up and we talked to the guys and we say, you know, look at the breweries that didn't win. Like, you know, these are, these are still some, you know, solid, solid producers and congratulations to the ones that did. But yeah, there's no guarantee anymore. I mean, winning one is a pretty dang good achievement.

JD: Yeah. Well then in some cases, like just recently, what happens to the beer while is being transported? It could completely knock a perfectly good beer that left here out of any consideration because what happens to it or it doesn't even get there.

TA: Yeah. So we've tried to mitigate that as best we can. Where the consolidation point and we have been for a long time that helps with refrigeration and, you know, just really making sure that the beer is better taken care of, competitive, you know, competitive judging or, you know, competitive brewing. I would say this is far different than it was 10, 15 years ago.

JD: I guess for good and for bad both. But back to your awards, is there any award that you have one that is the most meaningful to you? Not to discount the other awards.

TA: Sure, I think two really come to mind. The, we've been lucky to win a (GABF) Brewery of the Year award four different times. And I'm, I'm personally, I really want to get to five. I want to have that. I want to have that, that last one on the, you know, in that, you know, if I, if they gave out rings, I want to have the handful. The last time we won was 2007, so it's been a long time. And we may never get that opportunity again. I think the one that I won last year, which was the Russell Schehrer Award for Innovation and Craft Brewing, that that's you know, that's a hall of fame landscape kind of thing. And it just speaks to the community involvement and the, you know, being, being a participant in this, you know, only 22 people have won it at that point. And I, I, yeah, 00:56:00the legacy award, you know, something like that. I mean, I, I still love, I love the GABF and World Beer (Cup) Awards, a couple of awards cause they're, you know, they're purely blind. They're your peers. They show your team that they're, you know, they're making the right decisions. But the Russell award was probably the one that was singular in the sense that that was, you know, personally with my name on it. Where it's almost every other award that we've had that we've been lucky enough to garner comes with somebody else, you know, participating in doing work in that regard.

JD: Yeah. Okay. Well, very good. So, we're just about at the end of all my questions, from your experience, is there anything in the way of advice or a lesson you've learned or anything else that you think either can't be said enough or you haven't ever had the opportunity to say?

TA: You know, I think that we were talking yesterday, it's kind of interesting. We were talking about how difficult this business has become and there's a lot of noise and chatter 00:57:00and 50 years from now when someone's looking at this, they'll say, wow it's not as easy as it used to be. And I don't know where the fall line's going to be. We're going to get to 10,000 breweries in this country. I don't doubt that that'll happen. And I don't know where, where the relevancy will be. I don't know what it will look like. I feel pretty strongly that in the time that I've been lucky enough to be in this business, a lot of what's made us successful has come from a very strong sense of this is the beer I want to produce. And nowadays there seems to be a lot of, you have to just do what the consumer is saying they want.

And tons of breweries I think are kind of losing their way, respectful of an identity. And I don't know if the artist in me can, can sort of reconcile that for the long haul. I think there's this sense that if, if that's the way the industry is going, you know, is that what I signed up for? Part of me wants to see the consumerism shift 00:58:00and I, I talk about this a lot, but it's kind of like when you throw the boomerang out, it comes back a little slower than it went out and maybe the boomerang is coming back. You know, that there's just too much ubiquity right now. But maybe not. Maybe with 10,000 brewers, you just, there is ubiquity and that's just part of the nature of it. But you know, I think the success that I've had, you know, in this business has been built on beers that, that, that have something that look and tastes like things that I've, you know, imagined and there's been a lot of success for that. But I don't know how you continue to do that when there's 10,000 imitators and people trying to, trying to find the same sort of, you know, sense of their worth. So for me, I think the biggest thing moving forward is just where, where do we all fit in? It's just dense stuff.

JD: Giving everybody a chance to attain their dream. But yeah, you know.

TA: Yeah. I think that we're going to see, I think in the next two years we're going to see a lot of dreams getting crushed because it's getting, it's getting 00:59:00even harder today than it was probably a year ago. But there might be a light at the end of the tunnel in the sense that, you know, there's been a lot of distributor consolidation. There's been a lot of breweries, what they say, you know, rightsizing or trying to figure this all out. But it's a business. It's gonna eat people alive, you know? And, and that's what businesses do, right? There's, there is this, there's, there's a success rate attributed to craft beer that's not as high. I mean, it's higher than most consumer goods, and there will probably be a little bit more reckoning that will come along with it because you just can't, you just can't all swim in the same ocean. It just doesn't work. And so we're going to find some sense of corrective correlations. I mean, we're going to find smaller, you know, people are going to be making less beer for the next few years and if you're actively making more beer, you're one of the very few people that's, that's winning in that, in that space.

JD: It does seem like we had a real bump up in numbers of breweries that opened in 2016-2017 which is being that this is 2019, we're looking 01:00:00at entering the fourth and fifth year of leases for a lot of the breweries. And I think that might be a time where people are going to have to sit down and assess.

TA: Sure. I mean, if you've got a five-year lease and you're about to come into that fourth year, you're in the fourth year and you're now triggering the, am I going to renew? Right. I haven't, I haven't been taking a paycheck or I've been taking very little. And then at some point you're like, are we, is this a real thing? You know, I don't, I don't know. You know, people, people certainly I think come into it, you know, really, you know, eager and excited about it. And then little by little you're, you're grinding and there's a lot of grinding going on right now, which is okay, but you know, there's, but grinding isn't fun.

JD: No. And when people come into it with a passion, which is a term you used earlier, passion cannot sustain you forever, unfortunately. I mean, it's what maybe gets you up the next morning, but at some point it's not paying the bills and you have managed 01:01:00to raise a family, you know, other people, you know, that they've got investors that may or may not understand the actual brewing industry and cause and effect and impacts. And, you know, yeah, it's going to be real interesting to see what happens.

TA: Yeah. I've been pretty lucky. My partnership here hasn't had an unrealistic expectation of financial return. And, and you know, so, you know, we, we opened our doors, we borrowed some money, we repaid the money, and then we've basically reinvested all of that money into the company when we needed to. So we are not sitting here saying okay, you're, you know, you were relying on us for a dividend. And you know, that doesn't, it doesn't work like that. But the, the business of beer is very difficult. And you know, you, you talked about that word passion. We, when we opened our doors, I published this list of the 10 commandments of our brewery and one of the 10 commandments was that you, you know, passion isn't something you can buy at the corner 01:02:00store. And I meant that with a sense of like, if you come into this, you know, you can't just throw that term around.

Like you've got to live it and breathe it. And I think that that kind of what you were speaking to earlier is, is, has always been like, I think there's a lot of people that will say, I am very passionate about what I do. And I have been, and that's, you know, over the 20 plus years I've been doing this. That's that, that is a word that I would associate with, with getting out of bed every day. And it's been very, it's been very conducive to being successful. That being said, you don't have to be overly passionate, but you have to be, you still have to be passionate about getting out of bed every day, even when you're struggling, even when you're not killing it. And I can guarantee you right now, there's a lot of people when they're getting out of bed who used to kill it and were, you know, who thought they were going to kill it and are saying to themselves, man, this is, this is real. Like, and you know, how do you, how do you put your game face on and, and, and really keep, keep grinding and to tackle the, you know, look, we want to get to the other side.

JD: Yeah. Yeah. And you don't want to be a long face when your consumers come in because they're going to say, Hey, 01:03:00I came in here for a beer and a good time.

TA: I am here. I am here for a good time. Right. Any happy people?

JD: Oh dear. Oh dear. Something that just came to me, which is not on the list of questions, but we are sitting in the space that Stone originated at. And you had just mentioned that you've expanded. Talk a little bit about the physical plant. What was it like when you moved in as Lost Abbey? What did you have to do to it and how many times have you expanded?

TA: All right. So, when we took over in January of 2006 and Stone moved out to the facility in Escondido, they controlled at that point about 30,000 square feet of I think the building is 85,000 square feet. So, they had about a third of it. And when they moved out, we collapsed the entire building back down to their original suite, suite 104, and that suite is 7,500 square feet. So, we started with 01:04:00a 30-barrel brewhouse in 19, I'm sorry, in 2006. And we had 30, 7,500 square feet, including the tasting room, cold box, and our barrel warehouse. In 2009, I believe we moved across the parking lot and took over another 10,000 square feet and moved the cold box, all the barrels and our distribution. So, for awhile we had that space. We were up to about 17,000 square feet. 2012 or so we took over this suite that we're sitting in here, which was another 7,500 square feet.

So that allowed us to build our packaging hall, this office, the lab, things like that. We rolled for the next few years, for the next five years. We had that 27,000 square feet of space. And then we added we added a second, third, fourth warehouse across the parking lot. And that took us to almost 40,000 square feet. And then 01:05:00last January we moved out of that distribution warehouse into another building here, which is now connected from the front of the street to the back. Behind us. We control 40,000 square feet under one roof line for the first time. And we moved out of the facility across the parking lot, all of our barrels and everything. So we now are under one building, one roof line. We can't drive from the packaging hall to the rest of the building. But every other building we can drive forklifts through.

And that never happened. Two years ago, we owned four (forklifts) ‘cause we had four different buildings.

JD: Now does Port distribute all the beers here in San Marcos?

TA: Everything comes out of this facility. We are doing a batch or two a year out of the Pizza Port facility when we need to, but we don't, it's this, this facility can handle a lot more beer than we're currently making. So most, most everything that has the word Port Brewing, Lost Abbey, or Hop Concept on it has come out of San Marcos. 01:06:00It's only been this year that we've brewed two or three batches of beer down the street at Pizza Port. And most of that was for efficiency to do big runs of things that we could, we did a giant Hop Freshener, Hop Concept release at Costco and needed to have beer all at the same time.

JD: So are you, in Costcos outside of California as well?

TA: No, and that has been something we haven't really tackled or looked at.

JD: Like it would be just an overwhelming amount of production yet I think...

TA: Costco's pretty, pretty keen on a lot of local these days, at least for beer. So, I don't know how relevant we would, you know, we might be able to get into some in Arizona, maybe in Washington and Northern California, but you know, there's a ton of breweries in each of those locations. Tapping the same buyer on the shoulder saying, can I get, can I get in here? And, and the buyers probably got enough options that they don't even need something from out of here. And frankly, the cost associated with getting it to them would almost make it prohibitive in terms of trying to put it on the shelf at their right price point.

JD: Yeah. Have you ever had to turn down 01:07:00any kind of requests because you just knew that trying to fill that big an order was going to just break you?

TA: No, we've, we've been pretty lucky in the sense that when we do get we just came off of couple of pretty good-sized Costco orders and they were about 40 pallets worth of beer. But the brewery can handle that without being too burdened in the sense. I mean, it's certainly a lot of attention on one thing but we're not overly stretched at our capacity right now. So, when those things pop up, we certainly snap at them and want, you know we wanna make sure we execute on it. If we were making a lot more beer, we probably would have, we would struggle with that a little more. But when you get an order for 40 pallets of beer, you figure it out, you know, you really do.

JD: When we walked back here, we passed one of your employees building a bike. What other sorts of things do you do with the employees or for the employees to support maybe 01:08:00their self-education, other interests that they have, things like that.

TA: We've definitely put it on our radar this year. We've lost a lot of employees in the last two years. I think we've turned over 20 employees and we only have about 50 total. So, we've put an emphasis on that level of communication, you know, what can we do to assist you in this endeavor? It's not something that we've programmed in the past or been terribly good at. That being said, we haven't, we have really seen that there are some simple opportunities to do things like that and Tim's running his own small bike shop and it's just a, you know, it's a pocket, pocketed space here at the brewery. You know, we've announced that if there's other brewer or other brewery employees from the tasting room all the way up that have an idea, we would love to hear about it. We don't make a dime on it. There's no, there's no real emphasis towards, you know, trying to co-partner on things. It's just we, we want to, we want to foster the opportunities if it makes 01:09:00sense. And Tim's the pilot sort of program right now with the bike, the little bike shop that he's running and it gets interesting, I hope. I hope it sparks other employees to say, okay, cool, I've wanted to do this, that or the other and it looks like I could and come to us and say, ‘Oh, could you carve out this space again?’ We are, we are under more, more efficient space right now and we do have a little bit of room. So, I hope that, I hope somebody else says, okay, I want to do this and it, and it fits the needs and the use and isn't a big deal. It'd be great because it means that we can, we can continue to lift what they want to be a part of and retain them at some time.

JD: Yeah. Very good. It was fun. Oh, okay. Well, I think that pretty much has run through my list plus of questions for you about your career, your history, and what's going on with Lost Abbey/Port Brewing. And I want to thank you for that. And I'm going to go ahead and turn this off.