Biggs, Bonnie, and Gunnar Biggs. Interview March 26, 2024.

Downie: All right, so we are now running. Okay. So, this is Judith Downie, curator of the Brewchive® (archive dedicated to preserving the history of the craft brewing industry in San Diego, CA) and History Librarian and Special Collections at Cal State San Marcos, with Bonnie and Gunnar Biggs to talk about Bonnie and Gunnar's history of Cal State San Marcos and other related pieces of their lives. So, I'm, this picks up pretty well. So we shouldn't have--

Bonnie Biggs: Oh, it does. Okay. You want me to sit down?

Downie: Well, or let's see. We can maybe put it between the two of you. Okay. You know, because whatever I say, I'll just say it loudly.

B Biggs: Oh, okay.

Downie: So, yeah, again, this will be Bonnie for the most part, but Gunnar will certainly be jumping in with memory jogs and his personal recollections as well. So, let's start off with Bonnie, your personal history. Where--

B Biggs: Okay.

Downie: Where did you grow up 00:01:00and some background on your education.

B Biggs: Okay. I grew up not far from you (referring to Downie; laughs). I grew up in Vista, California and went to Vista High School. Then I went on to Palomar College, got an AA (Associate in Arts) degree, went to San Diego State, got a BA (Bachelor of Arts) in British Literature after the 1800s. And then onto USC (University of Southern California) for my Master's in Library Science.

Downie: Okay. Gunnar, how about you?

Gunnar Biggs: Oh.

Downie: Where did you grow up, and your education?

G Biggs: I grew up in San Diego, California, about a block from San Diego State (University; SDSU). My father was a faculty member in the music department there. And from there I went to North Texas State University in Denton, Texas for a couple of years. Then I took a twenty-year gap, going on the road playing music. And I came back and I got my bachelor's at Cal State San Marcos in Ethnic Studies and Global Arts, after completing my general 00:02:00ed(ucation) at Palomar College. And that's, yeah, that's about it in terms of my education.

Downie: Okay. And so where did the two of you meet?

B Biggs: Jazz Club.

G Biggs: It was the Hyatt Islandia on Mission Bay. (laughs)

Downie: Gunnar’s got the details. (Laughs)

B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had a friend take me to, to hear the French horn player. They usually don't play jazz, and this phenomenal famous piano player, but I liked the bass player.

G Biggs: Which is very unusual (laughter) for the bass player to get the nod, you know?

B Biggs: Yeah. So that's, and that was in 1981.

Downie: Alright. So, let's move on to your professional history, Bonnie. I've sketched out a timeline from what I know, but of course I can be imperfect. So, we'll start with, I know you worked in public libraries--

B Biggs: Yes.

Downie: Before you moved into the academic library field.

B Biggs: Yeah. I started my career at the 00:03:00Encinitas Library. Not the one we see now, the big beautiful one (snapping noise). But on that same site in 1973, and I worked there for nine years. And then I was moved to Solana Beach to become the branch manager for four years. And during that time, met him (Gunnar) and started going to grad school up at USC while I managed the Solana Beach Library. And when I got my master's I started looking around, and that's when I found SDSU North County. (I) was looking for a library (overlapping dialogue).

Downie: So, what year would that have been?

B Biggs: The SDSU North County? I would've started in 1986.

Downie: Okay.

B Biggs: And we were--

Downie: That was long after they had established that satellite campus (SDSU North Couty satellite campus that officially became CSUSM in 1989).

B Biggs: Right. I think it had been around, I think since the late seventies. I'm sure you've got history in the (overlapping dialogue) archives.

Downie: Limited history, limited history. I think it's mostly at San Diego State.

B Biggs: Yeah. So, it was San Diego State North County, 00:04:00and I was the librarian, and under the wonderful Dick Rush (CSUSM's first executive vice president). Whom we (Bonnie and Gunnar) just saw a couple weeks ago, had lunch with him. And what was interesting, he was less interested in my librarianship as my arts and lectures chops, because I had been doing music and a lot of outreach in the public library system. And he wanted to get San Diego State North County out to the community. We were in Jerome's (furniture store in San Marcos) parking lot, right. So we started having concerts, thanks to Gunnar. We got amazing musicians and put on festivals and, you know, Mexican fiestas and jazz con- you know, jazz. It was like a festival, actually--

G Biggs: It was a jazz festival.

B Biggs: So, so we started doing that. And then of course, I had to be a librarian too. That was always the thing. I had to do 00:05:00both. And that carried over when we (SDSU North County satellite campus) became Cal State San Marcos.

Downie: So then you were at San Diego State North County while it was still in Vista (California).

B Biggs: It wasn't in Vista at that time, but yeah, I know what you're talking about. It was, it had just started in San Marcos. But I know where that campus was. It was in the old Vista High, where I went to high school. So by ‘86 when I started, they had already moved into the Jerome's lot (building used for the campus that later became that furniture store).

Downie: Oh, okay. That’s all very fuzzy in our records, so I've never been too sure. So that helps clarify that.

B Biggs: Sandy Punch (retired CSUSM administrator) might be a good one to talk to. In fact, I have lunch with her this month. Yeah.

Downie: Tell her I'm hunting for her. (laughs)

B Biggs: I will, I'll do that. She'll love it.

Downie: Okay. So, you were there for the transition-

B Biggs: Oh, boy.

Downie: To San Diego State North County. So, you never actually worked at San Diego State Libraries?

B Biggs: No, San Diego State North County only. But 00:06:00I will tell you there, there were a couple of librarians at the main campus who were my mentors and who helped me make that transition, because it's a different world and-

Downie: From public to academic.

B Biggs: Oh my goodness. Yeah. So, Philip White comes to mind. He was a very, very good friend. And he even came up a couple of times. Just having to do with working with faculty, developing the collection. The trick was the faculty was changing because they were starting to phase out North Count-- Well, they were solid for a while, but we were bringing in Cal State San Marcos faculty. So at one point I was reporting to two deans. When they hired Marion (Reid), she became my dean of the library. But I also was reporting kind of to Pat Huckle, who was the dean of San Diego State North County. Whom we just saw last week. We took her to lunch. So I stay in touch with 00:07:00these wonderful leaders that I got to, to work with.

Downie: Okay, so you didn't have to move San Diego State North County or CSUSM to the Valecito site, Jerome's (Bonnie affirms) West, as we all call it. Because it had already moved. But what sorts of, I mean, you were answering to two deans (Bonnie affirms) at the very least. But there must have been other challenges and opportunities in this whole transition from being a satellite of San Diego State University to its own freestanding Cal State San Marcos. So, what do you remember of that?

B Biggs: I remember that it, I didn't know that much about academic politics at the time, but I remember there was a lot of it. And (I) started to figure out what the landscape was and just treaded very carefully, made friends with a lot of the faculty. David Whitehorse comes to mind, he’s one of my best friends there. 00:08:00He was San Diego State North County. And then beginning to get to know the founding faculty at Cal State (San Marcos). I remember there was a part of us at San Diego State North County who didn't want the change. We were thrilled that the state wanted to have this new university. We just had a nice little comfy warm tight-knit organization. And so, it was chaos for a while. And bringing Bill Stacy (founding president, CSUSM) on, luckily he and Dick Rush got along pretty well. As they also transitioned from one to the other.

G Biggs: Didn't they fast track the change over? It was, it happened before people had--

B Biggs: Very quick.

G Biggs: --predicted. It was one day they were a satellite, and the next day they said, “We're about to move to the new campus as soon as it builds in.” You know, so.

B Biggs: I'm trying to think who the governor was at the time that came down.

G Biggs: Yeah. It was like, it was a governor's decision to go--

B Biggs: And signed the paperwork.

Downie: Was that (George) 00:09:00Deukmejian? (laughs)

B Biggs: It wasn't, no. Wasn't (Bill) Craven. I mean, it was, was it a senator? Anyway, some, some, I have a photo in one of these somewhere of--

Downie: Well, we have a signed certificate, I think from (Governor) Gray Davis.

B Biggs: That might, that was probably it. Yeah. Yeah. He would've been the governor then. Yeah. So, that was when things got a little bit strange because we started to phase things out at North County and move. And that's when we took over the other building across the street. And the library moved into that space. Marion coming from, 'cause there, there's a question here (laughs). How, you know, she didn't know what to call me or what to offer me as a position because, to have called me Assistant Dean, that implies tenure and, you know, academic credit that far 00:10:00exceeded what I had at the time. I was just, you know, a public librarian learning to be. So she, but generously, I think it was generous, she gave me the title of Assistant to the Dean. And of course I was that. I assisted her on many things, head of, then it became Head of Public Services, or (unintelligible), it was called Coordinator for Public Services. They call it patron, is it now, it's not public services--

Downie: User services, (overlapping) what we call it.

B Biggs: User services, I like that. Yeah. And then later Arts and Lectures (curriculum-linked events produced by CSUSM College of Humanities, Arts, Behavioral and Social Sciences). So there, there I had one business card with three titles on it, which I think a lot of people did at that new university.

Downie: Yeah. We all had to do a variety of jobs. And we were not in the, centralized or no, I forget what the term is, but where you just kind of did things. It got done, it got taken care of, and it's gotten so much structure--

B Biggs: Crossing lines--

Downie: Permissions and paying for everything. Where it used to just 00:11:00be, it got done and somebody covered the cost. (Bonnie affirms). But it does seem like there would've been a lot of long hours and obviously confusion as to lines of responsibility, but it got worked out.

B Biggs: It really did.

Downie: Seems like.

B Biggs: And luckily, on one end, we had Dick Rush who, I got to tell him at lunch a couple weeks ago, what a wonderful leader he was. He constantly took time out, when we didn't even have time to go to the bathroom or breathe and gather us around his desk or somewhere in the library, and just let us know how wonderful we were and how much our work was appreciated. And what that does, you know, it gives you a shot in the arm and you just keep going. And Pat Huckle was the one, again my other dean saying, “Bonnie, at the end of the day, it's just gonna be a dead librarian if we keep this up.” (Gunnar laughs) Meaning she got--I told her about that the other day. (Laughs) It, she gave me 00:12:00the permission to place some limits in my ability to do all the stuff we were required to do. We were thought to be doing. And I don't know that that slowed me down a whole lot, but--

Downie: Probably not.

B Biggs: Yeah.

G Biggs: Well, Dick, Dick told you the library is the heart of a university. (Bonnnie affirms). So that's where he came from. Initially it was like, build this library and you will have a successful university. So that kind of put the weight on your shoulders. (Bonnie affirms). “Okay, I gotta build the heart.”

B Biggs: And the fact that he wanted the arts made such a difference in that tiny little Jerome's library, bringing the principal brass of the San Diego Symphony because of his (Gunnar) connections, for a concert. And Peter Sprague (jazz guitarist) out in the parking lot. It just, it put us on the map, in a tiny way. Because people saw, that there, there actually was a campus there kind of (laughs).

Downie: Yeah. 00:13:00So even years later, I was at a conference and somebody said, “Oh, San Diego State North County.” I'm like, “No, we haven't been that for a number of years, thank you very much.”

B Biggs: Yes, yes, yes. (laughs).

Downie: But you know, if you're not right there in the thick of it, you didn’t realize--

B BIggs: It was 1989 when I think, I mean, that's a date that really sticks out, I had been there three years. And 1989 was when we were signed--

Downie: When Bill Stacy came in and--

B Biggs: Right.

Downie: Brought in the founding faculty and--

B Biggs: Right. And that's-- (overlapping dialogue)

Downie: --things started really changing.

B Biggs: Have you gotten all the founding faculty? I'm assuming you've--

Downie: Marion got oral histories from--

B Biggs: Oh, good.

Downie: --I think everybody, and it would be nice to go back to some of them and, get a looking back now, what you saw then versus what you're, what you’ve--

B Biggs: In retrospect. (overlapping dialogue) What, yeah.

Downie: In retrospect view of that, that could be extremely interesting. But so, you were there to move into the permanent campus on Twin Oaks Valley Road. 00:14:00And that was while I was not on campus. That was during my period of exile, as I call it, after I got my master's. And I went down to United States International University. So that's, there's a chunk of campus history that I didn't personally experience-- (overlapping dialogue)

B Biggs: How long were you--

Downie: I was there eighteen months.

B Biggs: At, at USIU.

Downie: Yeah.

B Biggs: Okay, yeah.

Downie: And so, and of course-- (overlapping dialogue)

B Biggs: I forgot that.

Downie: --being that the position I was in as a staff person when I left, I was not involved in planning or any of that sort of thing. (Bonnie affirms), I'm sure you were, I know Marion certainly was. Way-- (overlapping dialogue)

B Biggs: Oh yeah. Way deep. (overlapping dialogue)

Downie: Way, deep, deep, deep into it. But you certainly had a lot of input as well. So, what do you remember about running up to moving onto the permanent campus at Twin Oaks Valley (Road) and then the move? Other than we had to borrow book carts from everybody, every library in the county.

B Biggs: Yes. I remember that. Of course, Marion was much more in charge of that and involved. I think I was doing more 00:15:00hands-on and working with a few staff. We had to fill those book carts and get things moved into the library. I will say a major memory of that was that we were not invited to the groundbreaking. I just have to go on record to say that. And there were many people who had been doing that kind of work, high level work. You know, like Marion, she was there. But those of us who helped build the foundation of that university--San Diego State North County--were not invited to the groundbreaking. So that, that's something that's one of the few bitter kind of, “Really?” (Downie affirms) Kind of thing. Maybe Dick was, yeah, I'm sure he went because he had transitioned--

G Biggs: There's a picture, there's of all the shovel people--

B Biggs: All the shovels. No (San Diego State) North County people. So that was interesting. (Downie affirms) And it is kind of a blur. I mean, all of the nuts and bolts and physical work. I just remember it being a 00:16:00lot of physical hard work, getting--Marion probably was up here (referring to planning and coordination of the campus move) more than, you know, the moving of the materials. And--

G Biggs: They got somebody local that had a moving company to help move the collection, box them up--

B Biggs: And I, I think Jim Hanson may have helped.

G Biggs: Jim Hanson was on there, but I forget who it was that had trucks. He had a moving company, right?

B Biggs: I don't remember that.

Downie: Well, they were, they were flatbed trucks with board sides, and we had all those book trucks. And the day we moved the collection, it was raining. So we had to wrap all the book trucks in plastic--

B Biggs: I remember that now.

Downie: To move them into Craven Hall, which is now the Administration Building.

B Biggs: Right.

Downie: And then of course, the ceiling was leaking, even though the books were on the fourth floor, we didn't have our shelving yet. So, the books were sitting on the floor. (laughs)

B Biggs: You have more memories of that--

G Biggs: Wow.

B Biggs: --than I do. That's interesting. I, yeah.

Downie: Well, again, you had other responsibilities that you were running the arts programs and, (Bonnie affirms) you know, 00:17:00everything. And (overlapping dialogue) areas of responsibility.

B Biggs: And all the Indian stuff had started by then too because, you know Whitehorse, the way it started was David Whitehorse (School of Education Emeritus faculty) walked into my office. He was standing as State North County faculty and said, “The plan of cooperation between the county library system and the tribes is dissolving, they’re--what can you do about it?” Like, “How do I (Biggs) know what to do about it?” (Downie laughs). So, I had started going out and working with the tribes at that point. We had American Indian Storytellings--

G Biggs: Storytelling.

B Biggs: --we had the American Indian culture--we couldn't call it a powow--culture fair, inside and over at the Red Barn (Williams Barn, San Marcos, California). So I was kind of doing a lot of that stuff at the same time. That's why I don't have really clear memories of the actual movement of the books. But--

G Biggs: That’s where you met Uncle Henry (Rodriguez; Native American water rights activist; instrumental in preserving indigenous California culture) was at 00:18:00the, at the storytellings.

B Biggs: Yeah. He was, yes.

G Biggs: I see that down there, yeah.

Downie: So that really kind of segues beautifully into the next session, which is your work with the local tribes, the California tribal libraries. So, how did you actually become interested in this particular part of our population?

B Biggs: Yeah. Well, David Whitehorse told me I had to (combined laughter). I mean, when he said, when I looked at the plan of cooperation it was a plan, very loose plan that the San Diego County Library system, which is thirty-three branches from Otay Mesa to Fallbrook. And the system I came from, they had a plan of cooperation. It just meant that they would do some interlibrary loan and maybe occasionally go out and help, you know, people with collection development. But it all of a sudden was dissolving. And so, I'm trying to think of the timing. It was at a time, one of those times when the 00:19:00budget was going to hell in California. So, they were pulling funding back and staffing ability to go out and even do the little bit that they were doing. So, David wanted to know what I was gonna do about it. So, I did start going out to some of the local libraries: Pala, Rincon, Pauma, La Jolla, San Pasquale, just the local, the most local (to North County San Diego), not south. There were no casinos for many years until after I started working with them (California tribal libraries).

So, it was more just about getting an assessment of who had what. Some of them had combination museums and libraries, which is not uncommon on most tribal land. So, I just started developing. I would say, and I tell people this, it took seven years to get totally 00:20:00trusted and implanted into the culture. You don't just go out and say, “Hi, I'm a white librarian, I'm gonna help you out.” (Laughs) It really did take years and years and years. But doing things like “Prez to the Rez,” taking the (university) presidents out there developing tribal communities, task forces, I'm getting ahead of myself, but that, it was that kind of stuff that gained the trust of the tribal communities. And the big part of that, ultimately, first it was, do something because the library system is abandoning them. But the more important thing was we need to get these Indian students to the university to trust coming to a university. Lots of history on that, you know, with what we did to native people in boarding schools. So, it really did take a long time to gain the trust, and the numbers show now that our native population at the university is one of the highest, last I 00:21:00looked, in all the CSUs (California State Universities). So, and we were the first to have a tribal liaison. And it was Tish (Tishmall Turner). No, it wasn’t (laughs). You saw that. That was a--

Downie: Well, this is a problem with a lot of the firsts that we've done on the campus is nobody stopped to think, this is the first we need, we need to record this somewhere. And responsibilities have moved from department to department. From unit to unit. Across. And then we've had changes in presidents, changes in everything.

B Biggs: Deans and--

Downie: So after a while, yes, it gets lost.

B Biggs: That's why archives are so, I mean seriously, it's so important, especially with a university this young. You got, I'm glad Jen (Fabbi) is moving there (to CSUSM’s Special Collections). I mean, you need all the help you can get, and you've got an opportunity before it gets too far down the road to capture all this amazing history.

Downie: Cause we've already lost some very key players. That, you know, you can't go and interview them now. Unfortunately.

B Biggs: No. No, I 00:22:00 know.

Downie: So, yeah. So it's become, becoming more critical all the time.

B Biggs: Yeah. Did somebody, I'm sure they did. They must have interviewed Dick Rush at some point. So--

Downie: Nobody's interviewed Dick Rush yet.

B Biggs: Wow.

Downie: Yeah. No, we, we have his papers. I mean, he doc--

B Biggs: He did. That's right.

Downie: We have more paper from Dick Rush in boxes in Special Collections than from anybody else.

G Biggs: Do you (Bonnie) still have your yellow legal pad thing where Dick had (overlapping dialogue) bullets for what, what he wanted you to do? Handwritten.

B Biggs: We’ll have to find that. But, you know, we're gonna go up mid-April, just for a two-night trip for our anniversary, our fortieth anniversary. And we're gonna see Dick probably, we'll probably stop in Camarillo (city in California). And should I ask him if he is interested in being interviewed?

Downie: Yeah, please.

B Biggs: Okay. That would, wow. I mean, because beyond those boxes, this is somebody--

Downie: Oh, there's so much more.

B Biggs: Somebody who really, really knows the story. Yeah.

Downie: Yeah, because he was 00:23:00there from ground zero, basically.

B Biggs: He was a British literature professor at (Downie laughs) San Diego State.

Downie: Those Brit Lit people, I tell you.

B Biggs: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Downie: So I know that you have mentioned to me over time that you went, you know, when you were first working with the tribal libraries, that you would go to tribal councils and you would just sit there and just listen. (Bonnie affirms) And, you know, speak when you were spoken to or invited to speak, things like that. But where did you meet Uncle Henry (Rodriguez)?

B Biggs: I think at a powwow (a social gathering celebrating Indigenous American culture).

G Biggs: Or a, well, there's a picture of him at the Red Barn with Lee Dixon (Pauma Band of Mission Indians). And-

B Biggs: So it would've been the American Indian--

G Biggs: Find that picture--

B Biggs: --culture fair, we couldn't have powwows yet. And David (Whitehorse) helped organize those. So that was when we were still San Diego State North County. And he (Rodriguez) was always invited as an elder to give the blessing. And he did 00:24:00that for us until the day he died. But commencements and powwows, so met him there. I'm trying to think how I got close to him. Just got close to him.

Downie: He was a very astute man. (Bonnie affirms) He probably saw your empathy and connection.

B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And he knew I was working with the tribal libraries. I'd come, I'd go to the La Jolla Reservation, which is way up Palomar Mountain. They had like a room with- so many of these libraries all around the country, really. Or a couple of shelves of books. One of them at Manzanita (Reservation of the Manzanita Band of the Kumeyaay Nation), I think was a bookshelf in a fire department. That was their library, you know, and people took me in and said, “Here's our library.” And yeah. So, Henry (Rodriguez) knew I was doing that work, and yeah. He knew I--to say in Luiseño, I had a good heart, I guess is.

Downie: Okay. And you've already 00:25:00talked about bringing the powwow to campus, but it was the American Cultural Fair. Before the American Indian Cultural Fair. Before it was actually a powwow. What were the mechanisms by where it could become a powwow?

B Biggs: Yeah. It had to be, of course outside, and with a number of different things, different dancers, different singers. Bird songs are important for local culture. So it, you saw a couple of them, I'm sure. It's huge. It's not something that you hold inside. So the parameters are really about dancers and music and a processional. So Henry (Rodriguez) would often, with me and Whitehorse, lead the procession. There's a blessing of the field. So, probably an Indian person could tell you more what the specifics were you, you would have a--what was Randy Edmonds (American Indian Tribal Leader)? Barry, what was Randy Edmonds?

G Biggs: Randy Edmonds 00:26:00was the MC.

B Biggs: He was the master of ceremony. So, so-

Downie: Randy’s last name?

B Biggs: Randy Edmonds.

Downie: Edmonds.

B Biggs: And he's still alive. I just heard something about him the other day. So, there were just a whole bunch of things. The idea of the American Indian Culture Fair was to at least get people used to it. So there would be a prayer and a blessing at a table. Got pictures of that stuff going with Henry. But, and I think they could do like a few small bird songs and maybe a little, you know, dances. But, they would have booths. And it was just a mini powwow is the best way to describe it. Powwow didn't happen till we moved to the campus. And we had that lower field, which I think is soccer now.

Downie: It's used a lot for soccer, but I think it could be used for other sports as well. Yeah, it's right down there at the, on the corner of the entrance on Twin Oak Valley Road.

B Biggs: Right. We always drive by when I'm on campus, 00:27:00“There's the powwow field.” That was huge. And I don't know if you know there's an Indian store over here (referencing a picture). They just closed or they're moving this.

Downie: Oh, they closed.

B Biggs: Yeah, but we were in there and recently just to help with any, you know, buying things. And the guy said, I said, “Do you remember me? I,” and he goes, “Oh yeah. Was (referring to the CSUSM American Indian Cultural Fair) the best organized powwow ever.” Because they went to all the tribes.

Downie: Oh, I'm sure they did.

B Biggs: I said, “It's because a librarian organized it.” (laughter; overlapping dialogue) Librarians--

Downie( Exactly. You put a librarian on it, it's gonna be organized.

B Biggs: I know. He was. Yeah. So, they were always there and selling things. What were you trying to-

G Biggs: I was trying to find that picture of the lineup.

B Biggs: The perfect processional, yeah.

G Biggs: Lee Dixon, who's passed away. Jane Dumas. David Whitehorse, Uncle Henry. You (Bonnie Biggs) and somebody else, they're all lined up. But that was in the Red Barn.

B Biggs: 00:28:00 Yeah.

Downie: We have a few pictures of the Cultural Fair, what was going on in the Red Barn.

B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah.

Downie: And--

G Biggs: Yeah, Randy Edmonds charged me with carrying Carol Bonomo (CSUSM Administrator Emeritus) out of the arena. They had just smudged blessed the arena, and you weren't, you weren't to enter the arena after that. And Carol comes across there and Randy goes, “Go get her and get her out of there.” So, I had to pick up Carol and--

B Biggs: Small, she's small. (overlapping dialogue; laughter)

G Biggs: I know. And carry her out the arena, kicking and screaming. She tells that story all the time.

B Biggs: All the time. Yeah. She loves that story.

G Biggs: And I said, “It's not me! I was told to do this, so I do this.”

B Biggs: (laughs) It was, yeah.

G Biggs: But there's certain protocols for the, like that. You don't enter the arena after it's been blessed and stuff like that.

B Biggs: And I don't, I can't even remember how many years it went on, but after many years I think I was starting to think about retirement, but the students took over.

Downie: Yeah, the American Indian Student Alliance.

B Biggs: And it didn’t--

Downie: They did it, I think, for two years. And then being that the student 00:29:00population changes, you don't have the continuity that you have--

B Biggs: Exactly.

Downie: --of actual employed staff and faculty to lead something. I mean, I've seen that happen so many times with the student organizations. They'll be there for a year or so, and then the person who was excited and found it, graduates. Good for them. Yes. But then they haven't developed a line of succession either. (Bonnie affirms) And then something else will pop up. But--

B Biggs: Yeah, that was unfortunate. And people were sad about it. And I think right after that, either I was going up for tenure--that's what it was, Whitehorse and I finally said, “You know, we better do this tenure thing.” And so suddenly I started publishing, you know, in a flying hurry. I'd done some, and then that's what it was. Yeah, we both had to step down.

Downie: Tenure becomes quite the time suck.

B Biggs: I'll never forget Dick (Rush) telling me, because I was just being a librarian, I didn't understand the whole, again because I wasn't really part of yet of the faculty.

Downie: Well, we didn't 00:30:00have a faculty mentorship program that we do now. There was really, you were just doing what had to be done. And hopefully somebody told you.

B Biggs: All of sudden, oh, you're supposed to write about this. Okay. And that was another thing, is doing all of the publications I did, all had to do with tribal libraries. You have to be careful, you know, and respectful, and vet things. And so that was, that sort of added to the lengths of time to get things done.

Downie: And so, as part of your scholarly work of course, was the California Tribal Library Survey, which that was, was on a sabbatical, right?

B Biggs: You know, the, the strange thing was the first sabbatical was Africa, right after I got tenure. And then the State Library of California paid my--paid the university, gave Marion money to cover me while I did that survey. 00:31:00The second actual one was going around and doing the New Mexico Pueblos. So that was my sabbatical. The second one. Yeah, the first one was right, you know right after you get tenure, you get a sabbatical. That was Africa. And--

Downie: Well, now you can apply for a sabbatical and hope you get one. (laughs)

B Biggs: Hope you get one. Exactly. And the, and the second one, and I'm trying to remember how long afterwards that was.

G Biggs: What, Africa?

Downie: It's usually (overlapping dialogue) every six years--

B Biggs: Yeah, something like that. Yeah. And then, but the, the census and needs assessment for the State Library of California was just a thing that they asked me to do because I'd become involved in, so that took us all the way up to a sheet. Yeah. So--

Downie: And that was 2001, 2002, as it says on the spine, a very fat binder. (laughter)

B Biggs: Yes. Of a very fat binder. And he (Gunnar) was on that one. I have no sense of direction. So, Gunnar drove me. Not only there, because a lot of the you know, reservations are 00:32:00really way out there and not very well signed. You see the signages, “Go three rocks up past the, you know, the oak tree and turn left.” Same thing with going around to the Pueblos in New Mexico. And I went on that trip because Lotsee Patterson (librarian and founder of the American Indian Library Association), my mentor, said that the best tribal library system in the country was within the pueblos of New Mexico (referring to the physical establishments of the Pueblo peoples). And that's because she helped guide them along for decades. And it was an amazing trip.

Downie: And how did you meet Lotsee?

B Biggs: At an AL- AILA, American Indian Library Association meeting. And we rode in a taxi somewhere, and I remember--

G Biggs: Chicago.

B Biggs: --remember thinking, “Oh my God, I'm in a taxi with Lotsee Paterson.” (laughter) And she was the most likable, lovable, again, we talked to her just a 00:33:00few weeks ago. She got her materials to Sean (Visintainer; Head of CSUSM Special Collections) for, yeah. But she's the one, I mean, everything really centers around her. And we just became friends and I guess kind of a, she was kind of a mentor and a not in a real strict way but she, just by way of being around her she was mentoring me.

Downie: Well, I think that's a very much cultural way is just simply organically as it happens, you pass your knowledge onto someone else rather than the formal academic environment that you know, we commonly think of.

G Biggs: She would take the students on a summer trip to the pueblos. And we would, we tagged along on one of those. So, in desert summer in New Mexico with our dog in the car and everything, but we would go to library to library, and she (Patterson) would know everybody. Down to the tribal policeman that tried to throw us out once, you know. “How's your cousin doing?” And he'd look at her 00:34:00and he'd go, “Oh my goodness, go ahead.” You know. (laughter) But without those kind of inroads, you don't just walk into a--

B Biggs: And she helped me get entre into all of the, all of the Pueblos who are just phenomenal people. Yeah.

Downie: Lots of, lots of accomplishments there. So that will bring us onto your other career accomplishments. On campus, I know that you were the first librarian faculty to serve as the Academic Senate chair, which was a pretty big deal because there weren't too many of us librarians (Bonnie affirms).

G Biggs: --weren’t Chair though.

Downie: Number one (laughs).

B Biggs: Right. There weren't, and, but the deal was, this is very strange, and I have to find it. I'd been senate vice chair for maybe four years, and I think by the time Bud Morris (Dr. G.H. “Bud” Morris; professor of communications and former Academic Senate chair) was ready to step down, I said, “Okay, I will go ahead and 00:35:00do this.” But I stepped out. I didn't, I ended up not serving as chair. And it was because I was getting ready to retire. I think that would've been 2004. And Karen (Haynes; President of CSUSM 2004 to 2019) had just said to me, “Will you be tribal liaison?” So, I ended up not serving. I think I was the only person who was voted, and also the only person who ever said, “I'm not gonna do it.” And that was, that was a big stink. And even Alex Gonzalez (former CSUSM President 1997-2003) was pissed at me (Gunnar laughs). I hated--didn't care for him. (laughs) But no so I didn't, but I served certainly for, I don't know, fifteen years on the executive committee and then four years as vice chair. Ick. Ick.

Downie: That was certainly long enough. But, that's what people had to do. I mean, there weren't that many people to serve in positions. Patty Seleski (CSUSM Professor Emerita) was, what, History Department chair for twelve years? (Bonnie affirms) Because she just 00:36:00said, “I'll take it on, because the junior faculty need to be able to work and get their tenure.” (overlapping dialogue)

B Biggs: And do their research, and yeah. Exactly.

Downie: So, we made sacrifices in some ways.

B Biggs: We just talked to Pat (Seleski) last week when we went down. She's almost blind now, but she said that she was senate chair for three years straight. I don't think we've had anyone do that many years straight. Have we?

Downie: Somebody recently did do I think two terms.

B Biggs: Okay.

Downie: But that was when it was one-year terms. Now it's become a two-year term.

B Biggs: Has it? Okay.

Downie: Glen Brodowsky (CSUSM Marketing Professor) is chair right now.

B Biggs: Glen is, and he was always on (academic) senate with me. (overlapping dialogue) I love Glen.

Downie: So, but any other firsts that you did? I mean, you certainly started the Arts and Lectures program. You certainly brought, you know, the tribal collaboration and partnerships to campus. But what, what other sorts of things?

B Biggs: 00:37:00 Firsts?

G Biggs: Tribal liaison. Tribal Liaison.

B Biggs: Oh, the tribal liaison I think is really important because, there were none anywhere. And so, establishing those relationships in the tribal communities task force, sort of paved the road. You read that history that I corrected that went to Patricia, Patricia (Prado)-Olmos. So, I think that that's probably, if I were to say the one thing I was most proud of, is that we established a position on campus that was about serving native communities. And then now that, I understand that they've got a couple in other CSUs, they have something. Maybe not the exact title at SDSU. And then the UCs (Universities of California) got a couple now. But we didn't have, there wasn't anyone. And yeah, I didn't like the fact that it 00:38:00was forgotten that there was someone who was before Tishmall. But getting Tishmall there as a local Luiseño tribal member was so important. Getting Joely Proudfit (Department Chair and Professor, American Indian Studies Department) to come to campus was, that was amazing. You know we lured her away from CSU San Bernadino, and to get a couple of local tribal people, really what that does is it opens the door for native students. I mean, we started that by having our tribal community task force. We go out to the rez, “Prez to the Rez”. We do things out there to bring people in. Untrusting native students and families started to see that we were a safe place for them to come. But the tribal liaison position, probably I would say, I would think the most important thing that I accomplished.

Downie: Would you say, if I remember correctly, San 00:39:00Diego County has more tribes than any other county in California?

B Biggs: Federally recognized. Yeah.

Downie: Federally recognized. Okay. Would you say that was maybe one of the reasons that we could be the first in that? Because--

B Biggs: I would think so.

Downie: --there was just a larger population to work with.

B Biggs: We had a larger population, and we had, we were young enough. Karen Haynes was one hundred percent behind it. I was on her search committee, and I got to ask one question, each of the faculty members (got to ask one question). And mine was, “We have nineteen federally recognized tribes in the county of San Diego. What do you think you would like to do, if you became president, about that?” And she said, “First of all, I would talk to people who know about it, and know what the needs are, and want to meet with the native people.” And I was like, “You're hired.”

Downie: Ding, ding, ding, ding. (laughter)

B Biggs: You're hired. So it was really having a leader on campus who was one hundred percent behind doing this work. And she came to a number of 00:40:00our, before we had NAC (Native Advisory Council), came to a lot of our tribal communities task force meetings, just to hear--that was getting people from business, you know, you think it's- Who, Raj (Dr. Rajnandini, CSUSM Professor of Management)? Is Raj still there?

Downie: I believe so, yeah.

B Biggs: And Glen Brodowsky. Folks that you wouldn't think would have anything to do with this stuff all had input and all had ways to take their resources and their knowledge base out to the reservation. Or their advice to the reservation to help--

Downie: And NAC is Native Advisory Council?

B Biggs: Yeah. And that, that evolved. You know, so Wendy Schlater (member of the La Jolla Band of Luiseño, elected vice chairwoman of that tribe in 2019) from La Jolla rez, Henry’s rez, and I went to President Hayes and said, “We need-“ you know, there was at the time what they call Latin- Latino Faculty and Staff--

G Biggs: LAFS-

B Biggs: LAFS.

G Biggs: Latin American Faculty and Staff.

B Biggs: And then they had just started an African American council. So, I thought, you know, we should--especially because we have so 00:41:00many tribes in the area, and it was time. And they're still meeting. I'm not going anymore. But, but it's wonderful that, that they are meeting and that, and I believe President Neufeldt (CSUSM President Ellen J. Neufeldt, appointed in 2019) is behind everything I've worked with her on having to do with the tribes. She's very--

Downie: It dovetails nicely with her social mobility focus.

B Biggs: Right. It does. Yeah.

Downie: Okay. So--

B Biggs: Oh, another first on campus was bringing therapy dogs.

Downie: Okay, well--

G Biggs: It's down here.

B Biggs: Oh, is it on here? (laughs)

G Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) I see it right at the bottom there.

B Biggs: Oh, is it really?

G Biggs: Right at the bottom.

Downie: But no, that's I think perfectly. That's, that's a wonderful first. Yeah. I think that's been done, you know, like in the county libraries of the public libraries, there's been the reading to dogs. So, it's not like it was completely foreign to people that dogs could be used in a very positive way. Other than just simply assistance animals. And there's 00:42:00nothing simple about that. But you know, the therapy dogs and the comfort or support dogs and things like that. I haven't seen a support alligator on campus yet, thankfully. Or a support snake. Any, any kind of reptile. Haven't seen those yet. But it does seem like it's being a more acceptable thing, but just the bringing them on right at finals time. (Bonnie affirms) To give students another form of release is, it's obviously quite popular. I walk out to see you and, you know, there are just students everywhere, you know, coming by, you know? Kids that didn't know about it are coming by and just, “Oh, well I gotta stop and touch a puppy.”

B Biggs: And faculty and staff. And administrators--

G Biggs: Presidents.

Downie: Yes. We all need it.

B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Librarians. Yeah.

Downie: Okay. So we can move on to some of your other career accomplishments beyond the firsts. You did do a sabbatical in Ghana, and wasn't that one of the first internationally, international--

B Biggs: Might have been. I don't 00:43:00know who else had gone--

Downie: --sabbaticals. I don't have a list of who's done a sabbatical when and where they went, but it doesn't seem like we had too many faculty--

B Biggs: Not that many of them--

Downie: --that were internationally focused the way you were on this.

B Biggs: And there was somehow money. It was obviously Komla Amoaku (Dr. W. Komla Amoaku, former Director of Visual and Performing Arts at CSUSM) who got me interested because they do have what I would call tribal libraries, or libraries formed by indigenous people in Ghana. And so, he got money through the--

G Biggs: United States (overlapping dialogue) Information, USIA.

B Biggs: So, so a little bit of money to help fund that. We of course got some money from the university I guess, to go, but we ended up paying your (Gunnar’s) way.

G Biggs: Yeah. Thanks.

B Biggs: For everything. And we stayed at a woman's home, auntie--

G Biggs: Jane Korontang.

B Biggs: Korontang--

G Biggs: On Labadi Beach on the Gulf of 00:44:00 Guinea.

B Biggs: So Komla--

Downie: I may have to ask for spelling. (laughter)

B Biggs: Komla got us connected everywhere. And we had a--but it, but again, it was to go around and talk with people in libraries that again, were kind of like the tribal libraries here. Some pretty well formed, some others, very slim, I would say. But the thing about Ghana was Komla was very involved in the music world there. He was the director--

G Biggs: Director.

B Biggs: Of the national Symphony--

G Biggs: Theater.

B Biggs: Symphony or Orchestra?

G Biggs: National Theater of Ghana.

B Biggs: National Theater of Ghana--

G Biggs: Which was an umbrella organization for all the arts--

B Biggs: For all the arts--

G Biggs: Music, theater, et. cetera--

B Biggs: So he ended up getting this one. It was like my sabbatical. And he (Gunnar) was the star. (laughs)

G Biggs: No. No.

B Biggs: He had, he had you conduct the--

G Biggs: Well, I, we went to hear a concert of the National Symphony of Ghana which was, it's a long story, so I won't go into it now, but it was really a treat. And the next day, Komla said, “Would you go to their rehearsal and talk to 00:45:00them about their performance?” So I did. And it was amazing, you know, and they had me conduct a piece during the rehearsal. But they were using some like, traditional African instruments in a symphony orchestra. That was just ridiculous. I mean, it was so good. And they--I found out that they didn't have strings for the--they didn't have a, they would break a string and they would find some way to make a string.

Downie: Oh, wow.

G Biggs: So when I got back, what I did is I asked all my symphony friends, I said, “If you have old sets of strings, tuners, anything that would be violin, viola, cello, or bass, give them to me. I'll get them to Ghana.” So, I sent a whole care package. They couldn't tune up. They didn't have a piano that was in tune, so I sent them tuners and things like that. But--

B Biggs: And the other, there are a lot of stories, but the other thing about him is we went to a couple of jazz clubs.

G Biggs: Which we didn't know existed in the first place--

B Biggs: In the first place.

G Biggs: --there were jazz clubs in Accra (capital of Ghana), the main--

B Biggs: But we walked in and Komla introduced him (Gunnar) as this big jazz star. And 00:46:00he ended up showing the African musicians how to play jazz, which is some funny stuff. I mean, jazz originated in Africa. And the rhythmic foundations of jazz--

G Biggs: Well, the head of USIS, United States Information Service, Nick Robertson, who lived in Ojai (California). Anyway, he was a jazz vibraphone player. He played vibes. And he had gotten together, we got some music sent over. Some musicians in Accra, to form a band, at the place called The Bassline.

B Biggs: As in bass line.

G Biggs: It was amazing, you know? And so I sat in and then, then he said, “We're gonna close the club tomorrow, and you're gonna do a clinic.” I said, “Okay!” (laughter) And then here, and I felt so outta place, because here I am trying to show them the idiom of American jazz, which wouldn't exist were it not for West African influences, ‘cause they had a little couple of pieces of the puzzle rearranged, kind of, and it turned--

B Biggs: By the end of the night, they were--

G Biggs: By the end of the night, they--

B Biggs: They totally had 00:47:00 it.

G Biggs: They got it immediately. And so I got to--

Downie: Well, they had the foundation.

G Biggs: Yeah. So I got to sit in every--

Downie: It morphed into something different--

Downie: So I got to sit in a bunch and play.

B Biggs: And then Komla took them out in the country and played with a whole bunch of African drummers, and Gunnar sitting there trying to do the, like the apentemma drum. And this little seven year--

Downie: Well, I remember Gunnar playing in Komla’s--

B Biggs: Yes, yes--

Downie: Classes and things. You know, the performances that--

B Biggs: That's right.

Downie: What was the name of the--

B Biggs: Sankofa? (Dr. Amoaku’s Artists in Residence group, which CSUSM granted a stipend to support the university mission of diversity through arts.)

G Biggs: Sankofa.

Downie: Sankofa. That you would do--

G Biggs: Well, I knew enough to be dangerous (laughter). But when he took us to his home in Ho (Ghana), which was way up in the northern Volta region, they had these people waiting for us when we drove in, it was like midnight. And all the kids were gonna dance and drum for us. And they asked me to sit in again. So I'm playing this one part, and it's like, I remember this eight-year-old little boy going, “Yes, no, no, no, no. Yes. That's it. No, no, no.” (laughter). So I'm being totally humbled to the 00:48:00 roots.

B Biggs: By an 8-year-old. (laughter)

G Biggs: But I remember everything he told me.

B Biggs: Everything, yeah

G Biggs: I mean, so--

B Biggs: So, anyway, it was my sabbatical. But he was the superstar.

G Biggs: No, I didn't get on national radio.

B Biggs: I got on national radio but what, but they would not let him come in. They actually had people with guns--

G Biggs: Fifty caliber gunmen placements.

B Biggs: Over I guess, you know in, for national radio in a country that, I mean, there really weren't bad things going on-- (overlapping dialogue)

G Biggs: Well, if there, if there's a coup, the first thing--

B Biggs: They go--

G Biggs: --people do is they take over the national communicate television and radio.

Downie: Oh, true. Yeah.

G Biggs: So they had these guys with helmets and fifty caliber machine guns. And you were, if you weren't on the list, they'd point the gun at you to keep walking.

B Biggs: Gunnar was like, “I think I'll wait in the car for you.”

G Biggs: I moved back to the, yeah--

B Biggs: It was just a quick interview. But about--

G Biggs: It was a good interview!

B Biggs: --tribal. And it was a, it was nice in the interview to be able to talk about some of the similarities between the indigenous library, libraries in Ghana and the tribal libraries here in the country. So it was--

G Biggs: You did 00:49:00that at the University of Ghana too, remember? You went in there and you talked with them?

B Biggs: I think so.

G Biggs: Yeah. I was in the car waiting again. (laughter)

B Biggs: You were probably, yeah. Yeah.

G Biggs: But you talked to people at the university.

B Biggs: And I may have at the university of--where did we go? British Columbia (Canada), I think I talked about, had an opportunity to, one of the many you know talks was to talk about that there are indigenous libraries in Africa as well. So, it was fun. What else? But yeah, his story, I mean, he was “Mr. Superstar” there. Yeah, you were. Yep.

Downie: Okay. So well, we'll move on out of Africa and come back to the states here. (laughter) Talk about anything, anything you did at the CSU level rather than campus level. Anything that you did?

B Biggs: Lots of talks. I'm trying to think. I 00:50:00actually got involved in development at one point. Fundraising.

Downie: I kind of remember that. You were doing some fundraising.

B Biggs: And there was a group that was formed out of San Luis Obispo, on librarians who were involved in development. I'm trying to make, remember the name of that group? Do you remember that?

G Biggs: No. What about the California State Library? Recognizing.

B Biggs: Oh, yeah. I mean, but that's not the CSU.

G Biggs: No, but under this career accomplishment thing.

B Biggs: Yeah, well that was a big one. Was the, you know, the assessment thing. That came out of having a relationship with a woman I met through AILA (American Indian Library Association), American Indian. She went on to become the state tribal library coordinator. Susan Hanks, I don't know if you remember Susan's name.

Downie: That name sounds vaguely familiar-- (overlapping dialogue)

G Biggs: Which didn't exist before you.

B Biggs: Yeah, she, well, yeah.

G Biggs: 00:51:00 Sorry.

B Biggs: National. ALA (American Library Association). I actually went from being involved with ALA with more, much more with AILA (American Indian Library Association). I would go to ALA meetings. But it was all about, you know, going to the AILA meetings.

Downie: But you were the first non-Indian president--

B Biggs: President, of AILA. Yeah. And that's Lotsee’s (referring to Patterson) fault. She pushed me down that road. (laughter)

G Biggs: And you got an award for a Librarian of the Year for--

B Biggs: Yeah, it was--

G Biggs: What was that award?

B Biggs: I don't know. The plaque is in there.

Downie: I remember typing up some of the newsletters for AILA.

Biggs: Yeah. Yeah.

Downie: I was your support person with Arts and Lectures.

B Biggs: That's right. Right. It, I think they still have the group, and I wanna think it's Librarians of Color, which I'm not that colorful. I am part Cherokee, but I don't, I don't talk about that to, what's it called? Joint 00:52:00Conference Librarians of Color Distinguished Service Award. Yeah. Oh, that was a, what was the one we did the talk at? In the--people from--that were the Whakatau (pronounced with a “ph” sound).

G Biggs: Whakahau.

B Biggs: That was their actual name.

G Biggs: They were Māori.

B Biggs: Māori.

G Biggs: Māori.

B Biggs: And, and it was-

G Biggs: New Zealand.

B Biggs: Yeah. Indigenous First Peoples from all over the world. And that was, that was through AILA, my part was through AILA, but it was with International Indigenous Librarians (Forum, advocacy group for indigenous peoples in library systems). Yeah.

Downie: Your influence--

B Biggs: This is bringing back weird memories, God. That's where they put him (Gunnar) in charge of helping. And he had like these five Indian women that were telling him what to do and how to do it. And he was like, “Whatever you say.”

Downie: Whatever you want. (laughter)

B Biggs: Palomar Library Association. Wow.

Downie: 00:53:00Because I know you were, you would've been involved early on.

B Biggs: Way early on. Yeah. Yeah. You were too, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Downie: Yeah, I edited the newsletter for ten years.

B Biggs: Right, right.

Downie: But that was also what opened my contacts to where when I first, when I finished my master's, Connie Constantino (former Library Director, United States International University) reached out to me. And I knew her through Palomar Library Association.

B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. So do they still exist?

Downie: No. It became San Diego Region Library Association. And then a couple years later it folded. There, just, I think there were too many divergent interests going on. And again, it's kind of like students you know, when they graduate out, you know, you gotta have at least one driving force. And I think we came to a period where it just wasn't a driving force anymore.

B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. Not sure how far and deep I was involved with--

Downie: I know (overlapping dialogue) I've seen some photographs of you at events.

B Biggs: At events, yeah.

Downie: Because I just saw Alice 00:54:00Rigg (former president of the Palomar Library Association)--

B Biggs: Wow.

Downie: About a month ago.

B Biggs: Carolyn's in touch with her.

Downie: Yeah. Carolyn (Funes) got in touch with me to get in touch with Alice. And Alice is moving, downsizing and moving in with her son, and so she found a couple of old photograph binders of early--

B Biggs: Wow. And she was pretty involved, right? (Downie affirms) I mean, she was, yeah. Yeah.

Downie: It seemed like the public librarians were much more involved in Palomar Library Association than the academics were. I think because we probably just, we were also having--

B Biggs: (overlapping dialogue) Had all these other--yeah.

Downie: --to publish and research and everything else, where the public librarians, this was a way for them to see each other and be able to congregate. Cause a lot of them couldn't go to ALA and stuff like that. There just wasn't any funding for the public librarians.

B Biggs: I hadn't thought about Connie Constantino in forever--

G Biggs: Wow.

B Biggs: Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

Downie: But yeah. Were you there when they started the scholarship? Okay.

B Biggs: I don't think so.

Downie: Okay, because I know they had this scholarship.

B Biggs: But I remember someone getting it. Yeah. I'm trying to think who.

Downie: Cause I, I haven't been able 00:55:00to track down the memories of how the scholarship got started.

B Biggs: Does Alice know? Have you talked to her or?

Downie: She wasn't feeling too terribly well that day, so--

B Biggs: Okay.

Downie: --no, I didn't really push her for a lot of stuff, but yeah. I may reach out to her again. So yeah, bringing up those old memories. (laughs)

B Biggs: I mean, PLA (Palomar Library Association), I hadn't thought about that in forever. Well, PLA is also Public Library Association. (Downie affirms) But I mean, but the Palomar--

Downie: But Palomar.

B Biggs: Yeah, yeah.

Downie: But well, anyway, let's move on to your post-retirement work, because you certainly haven't rested on your laurels, so to speak. You've continued a lot of your initiatives and then you've also gone and done Love on a Leash (nonprofit organization providing pet therapy). But, I know that your liaison work, a lot of it was after you retired from the library.

B Biggs: Right. So, Karen Haynes asked me to serve as tribal liaison. She was upset I was retiring as soon as I did. I think I was 00:56:00only sixty.

G Biggs: You did it. You bought time. So it was early sixty.

B Biggs: I bought time. So, so I was young, but I was ready. I mean, putting in twenty-two years at that, you know, place that the university was at was like putting in forty-four (laughs) in terms of--

Downie: It was a lot of work.

B Biggs: --just everything starting from scratch. So, I was ready to retire. She (Haynes) asked me if I would stay on and do, and I got to just pick my hours work from home. I was on the rez ninety percent of the time. But that's when the, the community task force was really underway. And that's when we started NAC. And I stayed on NAC until just this year. So, I retired in 2007 totally, like stopped being tribal liaison in 2007. Retired as faculty in 2004. I am still, I guess, 00:57:00on the California Indian Sovereignty--Culture and Sovereignty Center (CICSC; founded in 2009). I keep trying not to be, but I'm on. And so the things I continue to stay involved with, I'm trying to help this new Mejaumi (Franco-Rosales) who is replacing Tish(mall Turner) or filling some kind of tribal projects role until they find a tribal liaison. So I'm doing that. The big work now is working with Donna (Uchimura), Uncle Henry's daughter, to get Uncle Henry's archives digitized and to make sure that the family has a great deal of input and oversight. And so that one, that one's happening right now. I understand that Donna has let Joely (Proudfit) know who she wants to be on this committee. When Joely said she wanted to have a committee in this meeting with Donna, my first thought was, “You know what committee means to 00:58:00us.” (laughs) I thought, “Oh my gosh.” So, walking across the bridge with Donna, I said, “You know, you involve family to the extent that you want them.” And so (noise of a phone chime) she's done that. And Sean, she wants Sean (Visintainer). And she knows I'm trying to take a step back, but it's the one thing I can't not do. I just can't, for Henry's sake, I can't abandon the family until that’s done.

Downie: Well, that and all parties trust you. You know, and you have such a long-established history of doing what's right and--

B Biggs: Yeah, there is trust.

Downie: --I don’t think everybody else see their--see the path forward. It's very important.

B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And I stay in touch. You know, we just visited Pala (reservation) a couple weeks ago. Walked in and there's Chairman (Robert) Smith sitting there, but these are, these are people now who are Casino rich. And you know, so it's a whole different world, but they're 00:59:00just still folks who remember Gunnar and I putting books on a cart and running it over from a little trailer into the new building. So, we still have a relationship with a lot of those libraries. Rincon (California), we recently went out and gave them materials on Luiseño songs.

G Biggs: Do you hear Zuni? (family dog)

B Biggs: Is she in her dream?

G Biggs: She's chirping. (laughs)

B Biggs: She's having a dream. (laughs)

Downie: And you know, because I worked under you as support staff for what was supposed to be a seven-month appointment, if I remember correctly--

B Biggs: Yes.

Downie: Well it turned into four years!

B Biggs: I know.

Downie: But I would go home at night and I would talk to Dennis and Delaine about what was going on. And I mentioned your work with the tribal libraries. And do you remember Delaine's book project, where she gathered books from--

B Biggs: Oh, yeah.

Downie: --from her elementary school to donate?

B Biggs: Yes. I forgot all about that. Wow.

Downie: No. That she, she came up with that idea on her own and, you know--

G Biggs: That's too cool.

Downie: --I was so proud of 01:00:00her for doing that. But you know, you have inspired things to go out beyond your own efforts, which I think is really important.

B Biggs: Oh, that's beautiful. Tell her thank you. (Gunnar laughs)

Downie: I will.

B Biggs: And can she fix my iPhone? No. (laughter) She works for Apple, right?

Downie: She does.

B Biggs: Check it out. Somebody you wanna know (laughter). One beautiful overlapping of that, is we have gone out twice, maybe three times, with therapy dogs to the Little Feathers School at Pala Library. So there's the library, and now there's Little Feathers School.

Downie: Good.

B Biggs: And I've talked a couple of really good friends into--I’ll drive, and it's a long drive--and to go out and take therapy dogs to--

Downie: Oh, that’s wonderful.

B Biggs: --tribal kids. Yeah. So that, I have to set it up with her again to do that. But that, so that's like both worlds coming back together again, which is--

Downie: Because--

B Biggs: --a beautiful--

Downie: You, you've mentioned this, but there is Love on a Leash, which seems to be a huge portion of 01:01:00your life now. I mean, you were president of the local, the local chapter, right?

B Biggs: Right. And National.

G Biggs: National.

B Biggs: Yeah. Yeah. And vice president for ten years, and still very, very involved. My issue now is just organizing too many events. I'm doing What Gives Your Life Meaning? (CSUSM initiative and campaign for palliative care) in a couple weeks. And I'm having to, I've learned to say no, kind of, to this sorority, that fraternity, that you know, I just can't do--So we've narrowed it down to four big events at Cal State San Marcos. And six libraries and two--

Downie: And you've got all those volunteers to organize with their dogs.

B Biggs: Yeah. That's what's going on. Yeah. It's kinda--

Downie: Multiple sessions. Yeah. And it's admirable that everybody wants you, but there's also, you could have dogs on campus every day. I mean, if you really--

B Biggs: I would love to.

Downie: --accommodated everybody who asked.

B Biggs: Can't do it. Can’t do it. That was a hard one. And I'm having to step down from Cardiff Library because 01:02:00I have twenty minutes down there, and only had one kid to read to the dogs. So it's like they never got it off the ground, two years now. So, and that's hard. Gunnar knows, like, I don't know how to say no. (laughs) And learning to do that. But yeah, that's a, definitely a passion. And I love the university. I think that's the most important.

Downie: Well, you do have your bench on the campus, it says--

B Biggs: That's right. (overlapping dialogue) He (Gunnar) calls me a bench! (laughs)

Downie: --"I love this university,” I believe is what it says on it.

B Biggs: Yes, it does. Yeah.

Downie: Right next to the one with Dannis (Mitchell, deceased library employee).

B Biggs: Yes, yes. (unintelligible) Yeah.

Downie: So, I usually have a closing question. Because we've kind of been through my list here, but is there anything you can think about that, you know, or a culminating statement that you would want to say about the years you've had with Cal State? And you too Gunnar? I mean, you've, you've jumped in and reminded and brought up a few things, but--

B Biggs: 01:03:00I love that university, and I love what it gave me the opportunity to do in terms of the work with tribes, the work with Arts and Lectures. Owing books to, you know, I mean, I did work with patrons, but these other peripheral responsibilities are--run deep and are so meaningful to me. So I'm grateful for the opportunity. And even better to bring my dogs back.

G Biggs: Yeah.

B Biggs: That's just the best. (laughs)

G Biggs: Well, for me, because I did take such a long time off from higher education, it is a home that I found. I got a bachelor's degree there that they let me design. It didn't exist before. I didn't know that was possible. The faculty there said, “You can do this.” I got a single subject California teaching credential there, and I actually taught there for three years as well. So, I consider it my academic home. I feel really at home out there. 01:04:00And I still know people that teach there, which is kind of cool. But it was very accepting to me, very flexible and of the highest quality. I mean, the, I almost said floundering. The founding faculty (laughs) came from such great places. They were really good teachers, researchers, and human beings. I was really just totally immersed in their lives and their subjects. So, it was really a nice place to finish up that part. For me.

Downie: And I have to agree wholeheartedly with both of you.

B Biggs: Aw. When you turn this (recording) off, I have one final story.

Downie: Okay. (laughs) Alright, well I think we can end the interview at this point. So if you'll pass the phone over to me, I'll find the off button, wherever it is.