Cupaiuolo, Susan. Interview February 23, 2023

Lucy Wheeler: Good afternoon. My name is Lucy Wheeler and it's February the 23rd, 2023. We're here to interview Susan--

Susan Cupaiuolo: Cupaiuolo.

Wheeler: Kupaiyalo. Thank you. (Cupaiuolo chuckles) Uh, this is in behalf of the North County Oral History Initiative being put on by Cal State and San Marcos and the Museum of History here in San Marcos. The history of our North County--and just as a preliminary to your story, Susan--the county of San Diego is a very unique situation in that it's the ninth largest city in the United States, but it's in the community of the county. The fourth largest industry is agriculture, and most of that, or 70% of that, is soon to be in the North County. Part of that agricultural industry makes it a--well, it's the largest 00:01:00area in the United States with the most farms. Your story shows one of the areas of that agriculture which is kind of overlooked, and that is, in 2017 the county of San Diego estimated and actually counted that there were 5,000 small para-farmers, which is ten acres or less, and how they operate. And your story can bring us a wealth of information to that. So, with that beginning, tell us a little bit about yourself, your husband, where you were born, and what your interest in agriculture was.

Cupaiuolo: (nods) I'd be glad to give some background on this. My husband was Giovanni Nino Cupaiuolo. He died in October 2020 at the height of the pandemic. 00:02:00Uh, he was 86 years old. He had been in declining health physically and cognitively, and I just wish that he were here to tell this adventure, but I'll do my best to--to share it. Um, I'm going to call him "Nino." He grew up in Milan, Italy during World War II. He had one brother. His father was from Naples and his mother from Sicily. Farming was not in his background, and, um, I'm setting that up as making sure we don't have these assumptions about Italians who grew up on farms and have these big families, okay? Because that's--that's not the--the way it was for him. He had a master's degree in international 00:03:00marketing, and he spoke four languages. He sold industrial instrumentation in Europe and in the United States for over forty years. His first wife was an American. She worked at the U.S. Consulate in Milan. She was from Riverside, and they eventually settled with their three children in Orange County. For the first time, they had a yard! You know. Growing up in Milan, apartment, maybe you have a balcony with some pots. But the garden that he had, and they had chickens and the kids loved it. He learned that he loved growing things.

Nino and I met and married in Michigan, where I am from. I was teaching and he 00:04:00was working there selling to the auto industry. He was transferred again in 1988 and we moved to Orange County. So, how did a schoolteacher from western Michigan and an Italian end up with a six-acre farm in north San Diego County? Well, I have to say at this point that it was driven by Nino, who was looking for a place to enjoy his retirement. I was happy teaching in Huntington Beach, but his territory stretched from San Diego to L.A. and beyond and he was on the road a lot. On Friday, one Friday, in 1991, he was returning from San Diego and he 00:05:00stopped off at a--a nursery in North Vista and, um, when he arrived home he said, "I've found where we're going to retire." So, the next day we started looking, and we found two acres on a subdivided avocado grove off of Gopher Canyon Road. And the journey began!

At first, we commuted to the property on the weekends, and it--it was--it was perfect. It was hectic, but it was perfect. The Fuerte avocados there were in 00:06:00decline, and they were alive but failing, because after the introduction of the Hass variety, the--the cultivar, um, Fuerte fell out of favor. So, the 45-acre grove was subdivided into two-to-four-acre plots and put up for sale. So, what do you do with aging avocado trees? You stop watering them because avocados need 40 inches of rain a year. So, it didn't take long. When the adjacent four acres became available, we were able to buy them as well and that included a grove of already-producing persimmons--Hachiyas and Fuyus. So, that gave us a place to 00:07:00start. We moved to the farm in 1994, fixed up a small house on the property, and over the next year we removed all of the metal irrigation pipes (chuckles) and those dead avocado trees. By the way, avocado wood makes great firewood. We were selling it and giving it away for years!

Okay, enough background. What does it take to have a small farm? Well, besides resources like land and equipment and irrigation, you need physical energy and strength (chuckles) and a lot of knowledge based on research. And that would 00:08:00include--before you even get started--the microclimate, the soil, the water sources. And then you have to choose, based on that information, what to grow! Well, Nino wanted fruit trees. Okay. As I was saying, he was the driver of all of this (chuckles), so I was just along for the ride. But, he, in particular, wanted cherimoyas, and that was because he had the year before, out of curiosity, bought a cherimoya fruit at a market and he loved it. He saved the seeds, and he planted them in pots. In fact, there was a cherimoya tree on the property, right by the front door! After much research--this was in 1993--early 00:09:00days of the internet, okay? But, we learned that cherimoyas would do really well in our area. Not from seed, however. (indicates "no" with her left pointer finger, and clears her throat.) It--it took a big commitment, that's for sure, because choosing to grow trees requires a longer-term outlook. Depending on how much time and money you have, you have to, um, invest, because the trees will take three to five years, or more, to produce, while row crops, like flowers or microgreens, for example, they can be seasonal. It was a big decision. It was a certain amount of trial and error--grafting, pollinating, planting. But, as it's 00:10:00important to small farms in choosing a unique or niche product, not supplied (again indicated "no" with her finger) by larger farmers, it worked out! Now, at the time, that really wasn't our focus, but it proved to be a huge advantage.

A little bit about cherimoyas. They're a subtropical fruit, native to the mountain valleys of Peru and Ecuador. It can be large, often heart-shaped. (Reaches for a fruit and holds it up for the camera while the camera pans in.) I can show you one. (Lays it back down, and begins to rub her hands together). They have overlapping scales--that's what people call them, anyway. But, inside, it is white, and it has a custardy texture and it tastes like pineapple, banana, 00:11:00papaya, and in some varieties, even a pear! (Holds up a book with header reading "Gallery of Subtropical Plants" and contains a photo of the fruit and a cherimoya tree as well as textual information. Camera pans in on the page with the fruit image.) Southern California provides the--the best conditions in the United States for growing cherimoyas. The largest plantings are near Santa Barbara where most of that fruit is exported to Asia. The season is late winter to spring, so depending on the variety, that's from November, December to March and April. The tricky thing (rubs her hands together) about growing cherimoyas is the pollination. Each blossom is both male and female, but bees are too big 00:12:00to enter this fleshy flower. To get full-sized fruit, hand pollination with a paintbrush is the key. It's labor intensive in June, July, and August. It's not difficult, but it is time consuming. Now, (looks to her left, towards the fruit) part of farming has to be knowing the microclimate and (clears her throat) in general, in San Diego, people know the difference between the--the cool coastal and the warmer inland valleys. But (rubs hands) even with careful research on the--on the property, it's--it can throw you some--some confusing conditions, 00:13:00because, uh, there are different temperatures. You can have diff--places with sun, and soil, and wind. On our property, which dropped off to a--a canyon, the temperature dropped dramatically, including frost, and the prevailing westerly winds were an issue. We were able to grow for ourselves in that canyon, apples, cherries, pears, fruits that needed a lot of chill time. But we weren't selling those. (clears her throat, plane can be heard in the background)

We also ended up, though, having to plant a wind break to protect the cherimoyas (chuckles) that we had planted. Who knew! But, we chose wisely because we chose 00:14:00Satsuma tangerines, which proved to be--be-- very popular, so it all worked out. (clears her throat again)

Some research was more scientific because soil and water can be tested for pH and salinity and minerals, and there are a lot of excellent resources out--out there that--that I need to, uh, recommend, because um,--I'm going to read this just to make sure I get it correct--um, the University of California Cooperative Extension has the names of labs. Okay, you have to pay for them. But, especially soil analysis is--is important, because you need to understand the plants ability to absorb nutrients. You can even take them leaves from your plants, and 00:15:00they will analyze whether they are taking up nutrients as needed.

I also want to recommend specific groups like--we had the California Rare Fruit Growers. There's a--a branch in North County and also one at Balboa Park. There's the California Cherimoya Association and other fruits have their Associations as well. And, of course, the United States Department of Agriculture. And I can't forget the Master Gardener Association, because they have workshops and blogs and so much information. And in the past 20 to 30 years, it's been easy to find information, easier, because of the internet. And whether you're planting, or pruning, or harvesting, a YouTube video can teach 00:16:00you (starts to chuckle) just about anything you want! And they're fun! So, research is easier. But I still have to say that contact with people is key. The University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources Department--that's called the U.C.A.N.R.--is including--includes the County of San Diego Cooperative Extension and the Farm and Home Advisor--that's by county. And--and another part of the U.C.A.N.R. is the South Coast Research and Extension Center in Irvine, and (clears throat) it's a living laboratory for U.C. scientists where they are conducting agricultural research. It's a 200-acre facility, where 00:17:00they have outdoor events and demonstrations and classrooms. They have a glasshouse there. And they also have a huge cherimoya collection of trees that is just beautiful. And, of course, that was our connection to that place, besides the great people who are there.

So, relationships and talking about them, kind of brings me to the selling part of all of this, because when we had enough fruit to sell, the Vista Farmer's Market was a consideration. But Nino decided to try small, family-owned, independent grocers first. Not chains (indicates "no" with her left finger). They won't even talk to you. Even Sprouts won't buy from individual farmers. So, 00:18:00let's find places where they will buy locally. Now, farmer's markets do have advantages--meeting other farmers, learning about crops, meeting the public. But, they require labor time away from the farm and picking for unknown demand in advance. And that, with fruit on trees, is problematic. So as an experienced (chuckles) salesman, Nino knew to find out what the customer wanted, and he harvested by their needs! He would check their stock, or they would call. Sometimes he would deliver two to three times a week, especially during times like the Lunar New Year, things like that. That special attention is what builds 00:19:00relationships and loyalty. He also learned to sell by (chuckles) uniform size. They didn't want all different sizes of fruit. They wanted uniform. But then he had to be creative, too. And he was always making sure that he was interacting with the produce people at the store, whether they're the guys putting out the fruit or the managers, because that kind of connection does it all.

So, (sighs) pre-pandemic, Nino was even doing free tastings at Frazier Farms which was one of his main sources, uh, sales--of sales. He--he would cut up 00:20:00(gestures cutting with a knife) cherimoyas and take them there and they weren't well known but once people tried them, they were going to buy. Now, at one point, customers would see Nino delivering and they would stop him in the parking lot, asking to buy fruit themselves. He declined right away, partly because of the amount that they wanted. He realized that they were going to be reselling and competing with his customer right there in the store. So, it would be also disruptive to have these people coming to the property and wanting to buy, so, no. But it did get Nino thinking about sharing the experience of the farm. MeetUp groups were starting at that time. They were the thing, like signing up online for different activities. So, we started having U-Picks. We 00:21:00set up two timeslots on Saturday mornings, where people could sign up online, and they would come and Nino would give a presentation on the farm and the different fruits, and I provided samples of fruit and preserves and--and cherimoya ice cream and recipes. Oh, they loved that! So, it was a success. Families came with their kids, mostly from San Diego proper, you know. They were city people. But they were enjoying an outing in the country, and they enjoyed the property. They loved picking the fruit. So, these are people who wanted their kids to know where fruit comes from! Wow! (laughs) And the kids especially 00:22:00liked picking the tangerines.

We made a lot of friends over the ten years that we did that, and we got to watch those kids grow up. They--they also liked feeding my chickens. Now, some customers--I put that in quotes (gestures making quotation marks with her hands) 'cuz yes they were customers but they became friends and they would volunteer to come and help during the summer with the hand pollination and the--of the cherimoyas and so we--we had some--some really good connections that way. We even found a couple of paid workers from that group.

Now, over the years, we had a lot of visitors to the farm. Um, usually by word of mouth or connections to the Farm Bureau, and that would include restaurant 00:23:00owners, especially Asian and South American, produce managers from independent grocers. I think of Barons Market, especially, because we had one produce manager from one store come and pretty soon all of the stores were buying from us. We even had wholesale produce managers (rubs hands together), um, specialty produce in the San Diego. They--they sell to the public, but they would come and--and visit and see the farm. And we also had students come to visit. They were from Cal Poly Pomona and there's a College of Agriculture Plant Sciences there, and they were taking a class. I--I remember Dr. Greg Partida, who retired in 2010, but he had a class on subtropical fruit production and he would bring 00:24:00his students on field trips to the farm.

So, that socialization is so important because farming, even on a small farm, can be really isolating. There's so much to do, day-to-day. People, since the pandemic, working from home, have found out how strange that is, really, that instead of going to the office every day, they're--they're at home. And--and that's kind of like what it's--what it is to--to be a small farmer, too.

I wanted to talk a little bit about, um, record keeping, because it's so 00:25:00impart--important in farming and with the advent of the internet and--and computers, it's changed a lot. But, it's still a--a beneficial skill set, whether you're talking about taxes, or income, or expenses, or irrigation, equipment, payroll, any of that. But, um, another use for--for keeping track of--of information is monitoring the production of the--the crops, whether it's by varieties, where they're growing on the property, the quality from year to year. And an example of this is really in--in Nino's participation in the--the Cooperative Extension's Blueberry Test Plot Program, which was twenty years ago.

Now, traditionally blueberries were a cold weather plant that would go dormant 00:26:00every year. In California, the plants bloom year-round, and they wear themselves out. So, Nino, once again, wanted to plant things that no one else plants and there was a lot of research going on as to how to extend the blueberry's range. Through the Farm and Home Advisor Ramiro Lobo, Nino was given four plants each of nine different varieties of southern blueberries. The soil pH that we had was way too alkaline and it had to be augmented. Temperature had to be monitored. Pests considered. The Farm Bureau was very supportive throughout all of this. They even ended up building us a netted structure to keep the birds off. But, 00:27:00Nino was instrumental in monitoring and recording the blossoms, the fruit, the production for each plant. They called him Mr. Spreadsheet (both she and Wheeler chuckle). Well, Excel to the rescue, you know? Because, in--and--I--I have a--a photo of him here, if you'd like to see, where he is, um, (shows a photo of Nino, camera pans in) taking the blossoms off of the blueberry plants. Now, why would he be doing that? You know? For two years, he did that, so that the young plants could use their energy to grow. And then he would take the berries from 00:28:00each variety and weigh them and--and count them, and that's how they decided which varieties would be the most productive in southern California. Now, there were other farmers doing that too, but in 2002, California produced two million pounds of blueberries. Okay. Twenty years later, 53.4 million pounds of blueberries, sixth in the United States. This boom is due to technological growing skills and adventurous producers, and he was part of all of that.

My part with the blueberries was, (clears her throat) when I retired from 00:29:00teaching, then I was in charge of the blueberries. Okay. But think of it this way. Four dollars for six ounces (gestures as if telling a secret)--I was selling them at school. So, that translates to twelve dollars a pound. Now, what ev--other fruit is going to sell for twelve dollars a pound! In the past ten years, in the United States, the output of blueberries has tripled. And that's in the U.S. alone. And the main states are Washington, Georgia, and my home state, Michigan. So, why is that increased so much. Because of the research talking about antioxidants. So, in ten years, they have become really huge crop.

Okay, today, what country do you think grows the most blueberries? I'll tell you. Peru! Is that somethin' or what? Which, for me, is kind of a full circle because that's where cherimoyas are from.

Okay. So, I have just a little bit more, because I sold the farm after Nino's death. I had three people interested. One couple wanted it as an investment, (said in nasal utterance) ehh. Another couple ended up buying a larger property 00:31:00in Valley Center. But, the--the family that I--I sold to love it there, and they're trying to keep it going. They have no clue how much work it takes, especially with their three kids and two dogs, but hey. That's--that's--that's their issue. They're keeping it going, and I--I--I wish them all the best.

Now, (clears her throat) when it--when it comes to innovation in farming, I guess that--that--that besides his interaction with people, innovation was something that--that Nino was very attracted to, because he was always trying new irrigation. We had installed a--a well, which saved on water. But electricity was expensive. So, we invested in solar panels. And in the year 00:32:002000, we were one of the fifty original installations of net metering in the--in the county. So, it was always somethin', you know. We had a cell tower on the property. Very good income. Verizon had been pursuing us for several years for that. And finally we were able to get them to choose a location and (chuckles) give us a fake tree design that was acceptable that we couldn't see from the house. So, always moving forward with something, that is the exciting part of changes and I mentioned these as evidence because technological innovation in all our lives, including farming, is key.

What's next? (puts up her hands, palms facing camera) I don't know. Robots? (laughs) I don't know! But--but Nino was able to embrace new ideas and change. And new farmers are going to have to do the same.

Wheeler: Oh. Thank you so much. It's so exciting because we are all changing no matter what we--what we do. The--I was really curious about--say more about how innovative--what--what made him feel that way, think that way. Curiosity coming from another country and embracing so many differences, but being innovative with that help, maybe in spite of it sometimes.

Cupaiuolo: Well, he had many different abilities. I had mentioned that he spoke 00:34:00four languages. His father was an artist, and Nino was very artistic. So, he had a very creative part of his personality, besides being just so outgoing. And, um, he loved to--to try new things.

Wheeler: And that is wonderful! The other thing that I think depicts all of this was the number of articles written about him and that he helped promote, and to let the world know how he was, um, being innovative―

Cupaiuolo: Uh-huh.

Wheeler: ―in a very creative way. And that personality came across, and people accepted that.

Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm.

Wheeler: And there was so much camaraderie in it. Did you ever do tours of your farm?

Cupaiuolo: Uh, yes, there were farm tours that were set up. And people, through the Farm Bureau, would come from different parts of the country, even. They would come on a bus! (shrugs) Because small farms, for a long time really, have been a focus of--of many different states. We even had the president of the University of California come on one of the--the tours, and wrote us a--a very nice thank you letter afterward, because they were interested in how much they should be focusing on the part of the University of California that was devoted to agriculture and farming.

Wheeler: That's great. Would--sometimes when we're driving in the freeway and 00:36:00it's pretty much a parking lot for a couple of hours of the day, and we get this vision of wouldn't it be nice to be on a little farm or little acreage somewhere, do you have any advice to people who have that dream.

Cupaiuolo: (purses her lips and blows out air, then clears her throat) Well, I think that it takes more than people think in terms of resources and, um, research (chuckles), and it--it's not something to jump into lightly. It is possible to buy a farm that's already operating, and that--that's what the young 00:37:00family did from--from me, last year. So--

Wheeler: And the cost of real estate has made that less available to a lot of people, too.

Cupaiuolo: Well, that is--that--that's (nodding)

Wheeler: So much going on in this farming industry. That's why it's very important to have the history of how it has been, in order to build on to the future. Do you happen to have a photo of Nino?

Cupaiuolo: I do! (reaches to her right, and pulls out a photo). What is--what's happening to that. There it is!

Wheeler: Oh, and he has some of the cherimoyas.

Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm.

Wheeler: That one is large! How large do they get?

Cupaiuolo: Well, that was a three pounder.

Wheeler: Mmm--wow.

Cupaiuolo: Yeah, that--that would be fifteen dollars right there.

Wheeler: Yes.

Cupaiuolo: And you know what? People would buy them!

Wheeler: It's amazing the costs of them. But now that I understand more about 00:38:00the--the detail and the--the labor intensiveness of it, um--

Cupaiuolo: Course, if that--that wouldn't all be fruit-less, if people didn't love the fruit. So--

Wheeler: Right. Exactly. Um--

Cupaiuolo: But, hey, look at what we pay for blueberries per month.

Wheeler: Do you know of any other orchards that are doing that right now? Or is it a popular--

Cupaiuolo: For the cherimoya?

Wheeler: Yes.

Cupaiuolo: Not that I know of. I mean, there are people on the side. Competition. There was a guy in Oceanside who had purchased a cherimoya orchard and he had small, misshapen fruit. And he offered to sell it to Frazier Farms for three dollars a pound rather than the five dollars a pound that we were 00:39:00selling fruit. So the produce manager from Frader--Frazier Farms came to Nino and said, "I have this guy that's going to sell me fruit at three dollars a pound, so that's all I'm going to pay you." And Nino said, "eh-eh." (gestures with her finger as if saying no). So, he was then out there exploring new avenues. But, it didn't take long before that fruit just sat in the store and wouldn't sell. No matter what the price was. Because people had expectations of what they had seen before.

Wheeler: Yes, wow. Very interesting.

Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm.

Wheeler: Thank you so much for sharing this part of para-agriculture, which is a pretty new phrase to a--phase for a lot of us.

Cupaiuolo: Mm-hmm. It was new to me.

Wheeler: And the up--the fact that we are the largest county in the United States with that kind of urban and city mixture makes it even more diversified and more interesting to live here. It's not wonder to me that the price of land has gone up as much as it has. It's very desirable. The--We are, however, in my humble opinion, at a cusp of which direction are we going in the future. And how will agriculture look in twenty years from now. But, you've given us a wonderful foundation for how it came this far, what kind of innovation it took, what kind of knowledge. It's not for the weak--physically, mentally, or otherwise. And I'm so appreciative of what you've done. Thank you so much.

Cupaiuolo: Oh, it's been my pleasure.