Link, Rich, Mary Anne Bixby, and Greg Lorton. Interview July 9, 2017.

Judith Downie: Okay. It's July 9th, 2017. This is Judith Downie interviewer, with Rich Link and Mary Anne Bixby and Greg Lorton, all QUAFF members, former officials of QUAFF, for oral history about their experiences with homebrewing and QUAFF (Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity home brewers club.). It should be able to pick up everybody. So basically, you know, you can kind of look at those questions I gave you. You can start talking maybe from, how did you start homebrewing? What got you interested?

Rich Link: Well, I liked beer. And I saw something on TV one day and I saw something in a liquor store and it had a recipe and I said, “You can actually make beer at home?” And then I just looked in the yellow pages 00:01:00and there was Wine Art (supply shop) at the time over here on Fletcher Parkway (El Cajon). And, uh, that was in 1980 as I recall it. And at that time, homebrewers essentially made a five-gallon batch with a can of malt and four pounds of corn sugar, holding back a cup of corn sugar for bottling. For the bottling. And it was okay. It was as actually better than, you know, the mass-produced beers here in the United States ‘cause you know, we just couldn't take that stuff anymore. 90% of what I would drink would come from England and Germany. And at that time those were really good beers.

Downie: And where were you finding these beers?

Link: Yeah, in liquor stores. Yeah. Like that time, I think we had like Liquor Barn 00:02:00and some of the little hole-in-the-walls would have some good imports, but you know, it was like some beers were like $10, $12 a six pack and that was pretty expensive. You could make about two and a half cases of beer for about $10 or $15., seems like. Yeah. You know, I remember my first batch very, very clearly. It was a Pale Ale and it got all funked up with the yeast and it was cidery and it's like, “Okay, but you know, there's still something behind there that tastes really good.” It actually had good malt flavor and some hop flavor. Had no idea what the hops were because we just bought a bag that said ‘boiling hops’ and another one that said ‘finishing hops’. (Laughter.)

Greg Lorton: But you made it.

Link: Yeah. And it was cool. And I remember when the fermentation 00:03:00took off and you'd see the head on the beer. It's like, “Wow, that's pretty cool.” Smelled amazing. Bottling sure was a pain in the butt.

Mary Anne Bixby: It always is.

Lorton: Yeah. That's the one thing that pushes me towards Rich and uh, yeah. Mary Anne, what about you and Bix (Horace Bixby)?

Bixby: Well, my first experience with home brewed beer was in college and it wasn't my own, it was friends' and the guys had made this beer that they had in mason jars. It was all cloudy. so, it was very yeasty. That part I remember very well and it was awful. It was awful. I think all I could say was give me a glass of wine.

Lorton: Were you a, you were a chemistry major?

Bixby: At one time.

Lorton: Okay. At Purdue?

Bixby: At Purdue.

Lorton: Okay.

Bixby: But, 00:04:00when I got married, we were winemakers and we started out with Wine Art in Chicago and they had these plans where you could make four wines and they had the classes and… Wine Art at that time was, like early seventies, not into beer that much. They had some cans of malt on the shelf, but nowhere near what we have available now with yeasts and the hops and so on. So Bix and I were making wine and he did try beer once but it started exploding in the basement. So I think we dumped most of it out.

Link: I can’t tell you how many times I've heard that story about exploding beers. “Oh yeah. My uncle used to make beer. It used to explode.” Man, I never had one explode.

Lorton: Yeah, I would wake up in the morning, go out in the garage and “Hmm. Smells like malt.”

Bixby: Oh oh.

Lorton: You look at the shelf and there's stuff 00:05:00dripping down, a wet spot with bottles there and there's one bottle that looks a little shorter than the others. And yeah, it blew apart and the top sank down. Yeah, I had. And it wasn't until, you know, I never had that with an extract brew. But once I started all grain brewing…

Lorton: I never had a bad extract brew. I never had great extract brew. But once I went to all grain, I had some really good ones. Some pretty bad ones. (Laughter.) So now when was this all this wine making stuff?

Bixby: Well, in the 70s and then we moved here to California in ‘75 and we started with the Wine Art again with making wine with their program. And then all this stuff started appearing on the shelves 00:06:00and Bix got interested in the beer, and before you know it, he was making beer and also we joined QUAFF. And that went that direction totally. I think we only made a few wines after that; it was all beer.

Downie: So, my understanding is that Audrey Eckblom and Owen were kind of the nucleus of the startup QUAFF. But I have not been able to reach Audrey and I know she's in Nevada and I tried to call her and I've tried writing her and don't get a response. So, what do you remember about beer in Wine Crafts? I know she took it over when Wine Crafts decided to close the location and she became Beer and Wine Crafts. But you know anything about her history as a brewer or anything like that?

Lorton: 00:07:00Yeah, I moved down here in 1988 and I was living in Carlsbad, but that was the only place to go. And they opened a second shop in San Marcos. Probably in the, I'm thinking, uh, mid-nineties…

Link: Mid-nineties, something like that, 1995.

Lorton: Yeah, it was you know, I can show you exactly where it is in San Marcos.

Link: I remember it.

Lorton: But I mean that was a lot closer for me. Yeah. It was near Bent Avenue.

Bixby: Well before Audrey and Owen had the place, there was, it was owned by somebody named Peter, I think it was Peter, his name. And he I guess got out of the business, I don't know, cause then it was Audrey and Owen and she was pretty, she was really very helpful.

Link: 00:08:00She used to make wine. She was actually an employee there. And I remember the girl that was one of the owners, she had an accent. I don't remember her name, but it was shortly after that that they, Owen and Audrey bought the place from her. Now Owen was actually a beer judge. He, he knew beer.

Bixby: I didn’t know that.

Link: Yeah. Now, I don't know about any accreditation. It certainly wasn't with the AHA (American Homebrewers Association), but, he was labeled a beer judge. So yeah. I was a pretty good beer judge myself from college days.

Downie: Well, accreditation would have been maybe a little bit later because it was Carter's era that, even home brewing was legal again. So, you really couldn't probably do accredited judging until, you know, you'd had a few years 00:09:00being legal again.

Link: I don't remember when the AHA started, but I think the legalization was in ‘79. Yeah. And that's when the bill by Alan Cranston. Yeah.

Downie: He signed it and Carter signed it in ‘78.

Link: The US bill started by a Senator in Wisconsin.

Downie: And then everything winds up having to come down to state level and then county level and city level.

Lorton: But California was at the forefront of that kind of stuff. So. Yeah.

Downie: And so Rich, you were telling Greg that you were the third QUAFF president who was president number one and number two?

Link: So, president number one was Greg Schwaller and so now I wasn't there. So a lot of what I get is 00:10:00from Bob Whritner.

Lorton: And I have an email from Greg Schwaller going the fact that your part of that where he was, you know, kind of you're remembering what the original, he was the one who came up with the name of QUAFF.

Bixby: Interesting.

Lorton: And he was citing a verse from Poe, Edgar Allen Poe as the source. And what they were doing is they were thinking, you know, all, most homebrew clubs have some clever pun-related acronym. And, you know, they felt that, well, QUAFF is, let's think of something that QUAFF sounds like a beer-drinking term. So, let's come up with some words that fit that. So that's where Quality Ale Fermentation Fraternity came from. Unfortunately, Bob gave me some stuff that documented all of that. 00:11:00It was like the originals. I gave it to Peter (Zien) and I'm not sure if it still exists. I meant to ask Peter when I last saw him, but you know, it actually has the legal yellow pad where it has the names of the…

Downie: Is this is Peter Zien?

Bixby: Oh, you need to ask him.

Lorton: Yeah. I have to ask Peter. Yeah. Peter Zien, (several people talking) you know, I meant to ask him. Judith and I talked with Peter a couple of weeks ago and I forgot then I (inaudible). Peter's birthday party, I forgot.

Link: That was a busy day.

Lorton: Yeah. And I'm hoping they still have it.

Downie: Yeah, I've still got the oral history to arrange with Peter and Vicky, so I'll put that on my list to ask as well.

Lorton: Yeah, I guess Greg Schwaller now, lives, I think at Three Rivers, which is near Sequoia. 00:12:00At least that was where he was I think 2010 or so.

Link: Okay.

Bixby: Gosh, that's a long time ago, yeah.

Link: I thought Bob, last I talked with Bob, he thought he was up Montana or Wyoming or something like that, but who knows.

Lorton: Yeah, I can send you the email that has that.

Downie: That would be lovely, yeah, that'd be a real touchstone for QUAFF’s history.

Lorton: It would because I, I never met him…met Greg. Bob is, Rich and Bob or someone

Bixby: Who was after you?

Link: After me? Skip (Virgilio).

Lorton: Who was before you?

Link: Paul Wesley (second QUAFF president). So I remember when QUAFF was starting because Owen tried to get me to go to the meetings. At that time, I wasn't really interested in, it wasn't all that interested in joining or being part of things. So…

Bixby: A loner type, 00:13:00 huh.

Link: Well yeah. But I do remember him telling me, you know, we're having a meeting down at, it was Old Columbia (Karl Strauss brewery). That's what everyone called it back then. And it was before Chris (Cramer) really wanted to stress the Karl Strauss part of it. And then I still didn't want to go. I mean, their beer wasn't all that great. Why would I want to go all the way downtown?

Downie: How much was gas a gallon then?

Link: Yeah, yeah, 30 cents. But then, you know, like I said, Paul Wesley followed Greg. And Paul lived out here in Lakeside, and then Owen and Audrey kept working on me and working on me. And then finally they convinced me to go to a meeting at Callahan's (Pub & Brewery). At the original Callahan's, this was 00:14:00in 1990.

Bixby: That's your first time you went?

Link: Uh-huh. And, you know, after like two to three meetings, you know, Paul pretty much recruited me to take over. In those days you needed someone, you know. And so, he kind of felt that I was trustworthy and knew some things. But the club at that time was, I mean we had it from, most of the guys were, like I talked about earlier, the extract corn sugar brewers who are really interested in making liquid alcohol for as cheap as they could make it.

Link: And cheap was like the number one priority, truly. And I'm not trying to just make fun of these guys, but that was it. Yeah. They can make 10 cent pints of beer, man, they were in heaven. But we also had guys like Vinnie 00:15:00Cilurzo, and John Thomas and Bob Whritner and Greg Schwaller, some of the guys who really knew what they were doing, you know. So that was pretty cool. And we'd have a little corner and bring in beers and taste them and give remarks and stuff. And that was all pretty cool. But there was a great deal of the club at the time that was not interested in going beyond, you know, the kit type mentality. And I was. In fact most of the guys had never even heard of the AHA. That was kind of my goal is get involved with the AHA more.

Link: And that was when we had our first club-only competition and it was a pale ale and Whritner, Bob Whritner, was our representative and he got a second place on the national level in that competition. That kind of lit everyone up cause “Look, we do make good beer and we can get some 00:16:00recognition, let's go for it.” And things got pretty exciting at that time and, beer kinda got better. And you know, we had recently come across liquid yeast, you know, a couple of years earlier, it seemed like it was ’87, ‘86, something like that. So beer was getting much better and a lot more fun to brew. I remember making great wort, just absolutely great man, this is the best beer I've ever made. And then throwing in the packet of yeast and when it comes out and like crap. It's just very disappointing. And then Wyeast (yeast laboratory) was the first pack of liquid yeast I remember. In smack packs.

Lorton: Is Bob still around here? Are you still in contact with him?

Link: A little bit here and there. They spend, I'd say 90% of their time up in June Lake, but they do have the place in Rancho Bernardo.

Lorton: 00:17:00Yeah, I mean Bob would be a good guy to talk to you. I mean, he's really a colorful guy. I think he's an ice scientist or something like that who would go on cruises to research the Arctic. And alcohol is not permitted on a ship, but you've got a bunch of scientists who are really creative, so yeah.

Bixby: Better than prison brew.

Lorton: Yeah. He would tell me about the breweries or the places to get beer in Tromsø, Norway. You know, some of the story, and Bob is such a funny guy. Somebody was talking about Bob at Peter's party too, it may have been you.

Link: Yeah, it was probably me. We had dinner with them and Skip and Mary last summer. Okay. About a year ago. Yeah, he's 80 years old now. 00:18:00He's getting along a little slower as people do. Yeah.

Downie: Honestly, you can remember, remember what happened. That's it sounds like he's probably, yeah. So he's definitely on my list of people to approach. Mary Anne. When did you join QUAFF, you and Bix?

Bixby: I think it was like ‘92 or so but I remember going to meetings at La Jolla Brewing on Fay Street. (Avenue, La Jolla)

Link: Yeah, we moved there. Because Callahan's was too slow, too small.

Bixby: So you went from Callahan’s to La Jolla and then back to Callahan’s.

Link: Yeah. And then the PB (Pacific Beach) Brewhouse.

Lorton: I remember my first meeting was at PB Brewhouse, but it was there because Skip was the brewer there and he was doing a tour. And that was probably May 00:19:00or June of ‘94 because I was lucky enough to win best in show for the AFC (America’s Finest City home brewers competition). And so they said, yeah, why don't you come to a meeting? But I think the normal meeting place at that point was La Jolla Brewing on Fay Street. Yeah.

Bixby: That's where I first started. Yeah. That little back room. Isn't that where you gave your slide presentation on?

Link: No, the slide was at the expanded Callahan's. Well, when we first started at Callahan's, it was just that one room and we couldn't close it off to the public, you know, so we'd have our meeting and the public and it was not, just not.

Downie: Not when you are passing out beer.

Link: Well, and the club started to grow. I mean we would have, you know, a lot of nights we'd have 15 or 20 people, but then there was one year at the Del Mar Fair where it got a lot of visibility 00:20:00and the next meeting there was like 40 people and it was like standing room only. It's like, wow, we can't do this anymore. And, and, and La Jolla Brewing Company was just opening and they had a nice big back room. It's like October of 1990. And, so then we moved there. They only lasted a year, a year and a half. And Callahan's had expanded so they had a room that they could close off for us. So that was nice. So we went back there and then, then PB Brew House had, but we actually met in the brewery as I recall it. Didn't we?

Lorton: I remember Skip. That first meeting, that was the only QUAFF meeting that I went to that was PB Brew House. But Skip had a tour.

Link: They weren't there very long.

Lorton: No. And Skip was, he was the president at the time 00:21:00and you know, showing how everything was done. That's the only, only time. And again, that was May or June of 1994.

Bixby: Was Dion (Hollenbeck) after Skip then?

Link: Yes.

Lorton: I think Ted Newcomb.

Link: Oh, Ted.

Bixby: Oh, Ted. And then Skip then Dion?

Lorton: Yeah. And then Todd.

Link: I think Ted was a one year.

Lorton: Yeah, I've got a list of who is president after from Skip on. So, when I get home I'm now going to pull it out (inaudible).

Downie: Wow. Yeah. That's so great. At what point would you say QUAFF actually formalized, ‘cause you said you were kind of recruited into the presidency and it sounds like maybe you kind of recruited Skip to be your relief at some point.

Link: It’s kind of still that way. (Laughter)

Bixby: Are we really formalized?

Link: What does that mean?

Downie: 00:22:00 Bylaws…

Lorton: You know, Rich will go to the restroom. Okay quick. Let's decide on president. Rich. Oh, it's unanimous. Come back from the restroom. “Hey Rich, congratulations you’re president.”

Downie: The moral there is don't leave the room.

Lorton: Yeah. You know when I became president and Peter was the president, it was Todd Fitzsimmons then Peter and then me. But it was always the case as well. You know, Peter's kind of taking over the stuff that Todd was doing. So Peter is kind of a natural guy for that and I think I kind of fell into the same thing. And Harold Gulbransen was after me and so he got in there and then Bob McKay.

Bixby: My impression has always been, the president has always fallen into that position. It's like, man…

Link: I think there was one year.

Bixby: Willing to do the job to, to pick up, you know, to take up the reins and go for it. And, 00:23:00and we've been very, very fortunate in my tenure. I mean, I mean my time with QUAFF to have some really good people dedicated.

Link: But there was one year where we had a vote at a club vote.

Bixby: Oh, you remember that, who was this then?

Link: Well, I think that was Skip’s second term, but we dodged the bullet. And I think that thought, cause I was, when I handed it off to Skip, you know, we would have essentially closed board meetings and I said “I nominate Skip.” And that was pretty much it. Yeah. Yeah. And then something came up about voting for it, and it was hard to, hard to argue on that point, but we did. But boy, there was something close. I remember that 00:24:00was something that was averted.

Link: Yeah, but since then I remember, I think when Todd was president, there was some kind of czar-ish directive. (Laughter)

Bixby: Czar-ish, it that what you said?

Lorton: Well we, you know, when I was on the board from the time I was the newsletter editor from ‘96 on and ‘til I became president, but it was always a board decision on what the officers were going to be rather than, and we would put it up to the meeting if, you know, the board has decided that this should be the slate of officers. Does anybody have any objection or, you know, I think, I can't recall if we actually said all those in favor, say aye and everybody would go “Give me another beer, aye.” You know?

Downie: Then everybody had an opportunity to say something, so it wasn't completely closed 00:25:00or anything.

Lorton: Well, and the other thing is that the people who were really interested in how the club was running were the board members.

Bixby: That's true. Yeah. No, that's a good statement. Yeah.

Downie: A process of natural selection.

Bixby: Yes, and those who are actually doing most of the work.

Lorton: I think that’s the way it continues now.

Bixby: Yes, and we've tried to get more newer board members, we want QUAFF to continue.

Downie: Right.

Bixby: And we've been throwing it out there over and over, you know, but people are reluctant to, they have their own lives. This is not, you know, like any group. It's a volunteer kind of position. So try to get some of these young people, we have, we have several very great new ideas and so on. I love that part. I just want it to continue. I love QUAFF so much.

Lorton: You know, you haven't been a one of the senior 00:26:00 officers.

Bixby: Never, not yet.

Link: (Showing photograph) So that was the original room at Callahan.

Downie: That's wonderful.

Bixby: Can I see that?

Lorton: I’ve got to see that too.

Link: And then they added on that section right there where they could actually rope it off.

Lorton: Yeah, I remember we had one meeting. There was a point at which we were kind of, we kind of hit a minimum and I remember Harold Gulbransen was giving a talk and it was in October and he was competing with the World Series which was on the TV screen behind him.

Bixby: Which was hard for him as one eye was probably on the Series and one eye on the…That’s really great. You have a date on the back too?

Lorton: 00:27:00This guy is much more…

Link: I would say this is probably about 92-ish. This is not like the photos when we were kids that had the date on the back or on the margins.

Downie: Well of course I am trying to work with Lee (Doxtader) at Callahan’s and he can probably give me some dates. I would hope he would remember QUAFF’s presence.

Bixby: Was Lee around that long ago? Oh my, (another photograph) well that's…

Downie: Chris with Karl Strauss.

Bixby: Yeah. Yeah. I remember one of those is a beer dinners they had. I actually sat at the table with Karl and his wife. It was kind of fun.

Bixby: I think they still have the same chef.

Link: You know, I think so.

Bixby: Gunther.

Downie: You even remember his name.

Bixby: Good food!

Link: I knew I had a picture.

Bixby: Yeah. 00:28:00That's great.

Downie: So. the pictures are wonderful. I mean that would be something that I would be interested in digitizing, giving you copies of the digital files.

Link: Most of those are pre-digital, so they're just going to be…

Downie: Negatives floating around, if you still have the negatives.

Link: They’re somewhere. Yeah, it's tough.

Downie: It is. I'm going through my parents’ things and my mother was, you know, a historian at heart and I actually, when I was emptying out the house, I found up on the very highest shelf in the entry hall closet, so, of course that's where the heat all rises. Six eight-millimeter films, pre-sound. My parents' wedding day. My cousins, there's actually some of me, I took them to ScanDiego and they were able to salvage pretty much everything and digitize them. So, I have to give my family, you know, pictures, you know, the films on a DVD and say, here you go. And if anybody, I filled in what I knew what I 00:29:00could recognize and some of them I had to kind of guesstimate the date saying, well, okay, I'm in there. So, I know that had to be this year, but I'm not in that one and this cousin looks younger, so it was probably a couple of years earlier. And I've asked the family, of course, you know, probably none of them have actually stopped and taken the time to look at the DVDs. If I put them online like in Dropbox and link them and said, here, go look at these and you know, give me some feedback. They'd probably do that. But you know, a lot of people don't have DVD players even anymore.

Link: DVD?

Downie: Yeah, I do have the online digital files.

Link: That’s our media now.

Downie: Yeah, for me. I've got DVD player and stuff.

Bixby: (to Lorton) Which one did you get?

Lorton: Get Thee to a Nunnery. (beer name)

Bixby: I’m telling you, that is going to be one of my new favorites.

Link: Did you try the English (inaudible)?

Lorton: Oh, the Banksy?

Link: No, the (inaudible).

Lorton: No I didn’t.

Link: What was it, something about all night or midnight or something. Down 00:30:00Through the Night?

Bixby: We'll wait for you if you go get a beer.

Loron: I'm just going to say…

Link: Well now you can talk about me…

Lorton: Let me check on my record to see if I...

Link: Quite frankly, there were a lot of QUAFF members at that time that didn't like what I was doing and they stopped coming. But I think it was the right thing to do to make QUAFF more....

Bixby: What years were you in?

Link: I was president in 1990. So for two years.

Lorton: Yeah. I had the same experience.

Bixby: I must have this come in on the end of you. I don't remember being displeased.

Link: Well, I think people like us, we're happy with the direction it’s going. But the guys that were making the 10 cent pints, were not.

Bixby: Oh, there is a different mentality. When you talk to people across the, yeah, it's a different mentality.

Lorton: I mean there was a group, they were complaining, “Oh, you guys are too focused on competition.”

Bixby: But it was, I never thought it was, so 00:31:00much as focus on competitions is focusing on bettering your craft is what it was. And so the competitions were feedback. I always looked at it in a totally different way.

Lorton: Well, it depends on your perspective ‘cause I agree totally with you.

Link: But, there were a lot of members even after the exodus in my period, there were still a lot of members thought we were too fixated on competitions. And I would just tell them don't worry about it. Yeah.

Downie: You don't have to participate. It can be a goal for some.

Bixby: Yeah, yeah.

Link: Just learn from it. Come and enjoy it. What did you want?

Bixby: Another Nun.

Lorton: Let me know what that British beer was Rich that you said if I had…

Link: Oh, it’s Down through the Night, a British Strong.

Lorton: Oh okay, now I haven’t had that.

Bixby: You know, I live so close, I should have had everything here.

Lorton: You know, getting drunk 00:32:00has no appeal to me.

Bixby: No, no, no, no, no. You know, that's not the point.

Lorton: I know a lot of people who, “Oh yeah,” like get, well, I mean, but I'm not one of them.

Bixby: You get drunk, you can't taste another good beer.

Lorton: Yeah, I get headaches the next morning. You know, if it's too much, the bed starts spinning around.

Bixby: It’s been a long time since that happened.

Lorton: I was just going to say, that's when I was a wine person.

Downie: So, Mary Anne, tell me about Mead Day and the celebration at your house.

Bixby: You know I cannot remember the first time I did it. You’re kind of, like have some trust you know, in your reminisces.

Lorton: The unfortunate thing is a lot of my memory is actually in the newsletters that I did. And I don't know if my newsletters predate mead day and I'm trying to remember where else we were. I told 00:33:00Judith that Frank Golbeck came to one of our mead days a few years ago.

Bixby: But I'd had them before Frank came along.

Lorton: They were quite, I don't know how, I don't remember. It just seems like a long time we have done this. And it's the national mead day, which is the first Saturday in August, which is kind of hot in El Cajon usually, which is an understatement. But sometimes it rained a couple times, but other than that…

Lorton: I told her about Death Mead Day.

Downie: Yeah. I heard about the Death Mead and anything called Death Mead Day is definitely a must attend.

Lorton: What kind of alcoholic beverage do you want to not drink a whole lot of when its hot?

Bixby: I know it. (Laughter)

Link: At least it’s not Imperial Stout Day.

Lorton: It’s stronger than Imperial Stout.

Bixby: It's been fun over the years. 00:34:00And, we had one guy who was, owned the Downtown Johnny Brown's, for a while and he made mead cocktails and brought them to Mead Day. So even that was fun. We has meads from all over the place.

Lorton: Yeah, we started Mead Day probably when AHA started recognizing it (in 2002). It wouldn’t surprise me because we were into meads back in the early 2000s, late 1990s.

Bixby: I should check on the original when AHA started that cause they used to have an official recipe. So, it was like, okay, my garage wasn't so full at the time. So we used to make mead in the garage, which kept all the mess and the stickiness right there. And the, and I would…

Lorton: The bees.

Bixby: …clean out. Well we did have that.

Lorton: When you make mead, if you do it outside, you get bees.

Bixby: Oh yeah.

Downie: There's a cautionary tale.

Link: You come 00:35:00in the garage, you get, come on, really? Get outta here.

Lorton: Yeah, they like honey.

Bixby: But there was an official recipe and I tried to encourage people, you know, this is the official recipe we're going to do. And since I was hosting it hard for me to make it, but I'm trying to get other people to do it and we, we had some pretty good meads.

Lorton: Yeah. Well, there's always…

Bixby: Hot or not. I mean it was never blasting.

Lorton: Yeah. There's always, always more meads. You end up with a whole bunch leftover when we’re done.

Bixby: Yeah, because I tried to collect not just the ones on my travels, but some of the competition meads, even the ones where when we had the homebrew competitions. Then they were like unknown cause I never got the printout to say number whatever is such and such. So we just opened them. I still have a few for this year from last year’s competitions.

Lorton: Yeah. So, you know, if we have a, 00:36:00if there's a competition, you know, the idea is submit two bottles. If yours is the best in your category and there's three to five categories, then that best in that category will go on and compete for the best of show. But everything else is just a second bottle, looking for a home.

Bixby: (Inaudible) was my home for a long time.

Downie: There's the advantage to having it at your house.

Bixby: Well I didn't drink them, I saved them so we could share. Cause you never, you didn't know what they were.

Lorton: At your house. It was better than being at my house.

Bixby: Oh maybe so.

Lorton: But yeah. And it was good because I think at the time, and we’re still doing this. There are quite a few people who are interested in being mead judges and it's good to look at “Well, this mead isn't quite so good for this reason. It's too hot and too, you know, too alcoholic”

Bixby: Or no flavor.

Lorton: Yeah. Things like that. So, 00:37:00but yeah, you know, I'm trying to remember if it was at someplace besides your place when we first got started.

Bixby: I don't know. I can't remember that. That's too far off. But I know I did it because Bix was into making beer and mead making was similar to wine making. So, it interested me. And so, I started making mead.

Link: With your daughter?

Bixby: You know, actually I, I know I did it before, but the only mead my daughter and I ever made was in 2000 there's one bottle left. I have no idea how it tastes. I hate to open it without her. If she could ever come to Mead Day, I would open it. But she helped formulate the recipe.

Downie: So good. Rich, have you ever done mead or cider?

Link: Yeah, I did a few. 00:38:00It wasn't something that I really wanted to do much of because I didn't drink a lot of mead. It was tough for me to, it was just tough to drink that much mead. Yeah.

Bixby: Are you a wine maker? I mean a wine drinker at all? You are?

Link: Yeah.

Bixby: You are.

Lorton: I am not.

Link: It is a lot easier for me to drink a bottle of wine than it was for mead. Mead was just too much.

Lorton: Yeah. I'm kind of the same way. You know, I go through periods when, “Oh, that mead really tastes good. I need to make some.” And then I, you know, I've made a whole bunch and okay and I've got to get rid of these bottles, you know, and…

Bixby: No, I agree. When your palate has tasted so many things, I've gone through stages too. So you know, maybe I'm into a hop mood and maybe I'm not, you know, or something like that.

Lorton: Well, and for me, I have a beer with dinner and 00:39:00there aren't many foods that don't go well with beer, but there are a lot of foods that don't go well with wine or mead.

Bixby: That's interesting. Cause I remember when all this pairing stuff, remember when they were into the pairing and the food and the beer dinners and so on. And that was one of the things I heard right from the beginning. The guys, the chefs, saying not the drinkers, but the chefs would say, yeah, they had an easier time with the beer.

Lorton: Yeah. What kind of wine or me goes best with a hamburger or what kind of pizza goes best with wine?

Downie: Well, I have to say when I was in the Craft Beer Expo last September and did the chocolate and beer pairing with Bill Sysak. Saturday morning at 9:00 AM, I'm sitting there with chocolate and beer in front of me going, “This is something real wrong, cause I'm not that big a beer drinker.” But Bill made the argument that the carbonation in beer 00:40:00actually because it cuts through the fatty of the foods, makes for a better drink with any food.

Link: That’s why it’s so much better with cheese than wine is, you know, the whole wine thing is wine and cheese. Well no, it doesn't work as well as beer.

Downie: And with wine, until you get into this whole, you've got red, you've got white, you've got these very distinct strong categories where with beer there seems to be a, because of the hops and things, there seem to be a more consistent thread through it. So, it just seems to be more all-purpose maybe, I am not explaining it very well.

Lorton: Well, I mean there's so many, I mean beer is such a much more diverse than wine.

Link: I've had arguments with wine makers about that. Oh you know, wine does this. So there's so many variations. And I said, okay, let's just talk about beer, the different kinds of malts, the different kinds of hop, different kinds of yeast. It's like infinite. 00:41:00Yeah, it's, it's truly infinite. Wine. Like you said, you got your reds and whites, you got blends and stuff, but they only got about five or six different categories. Really.

Bixby: That was fun for me to watch. The homebrewing community really affect what we drink now because the guys had no limits. And so, we had people making beer with Jolly Ranchers or something from the grocery store, cereal bins, or something like that. And then these ideas just kind of, I think progress and what the creativity is, was part of the whole thing. That's what I love. And then of course the gadgetry, I was in love with the gadgetry. Oh my gosh you guys…

Link: There were a lot of engineers and scientists that brew.

Bixby: It was beautiful. That's what I love. I did love that part. That so much.

Lorton: Yeah. And you see that in commercial brewing now. 00:42:00I mean, if you look at the new things that the brewers are making, you know, I went to a golf and beer festival a couple of weeks ago or a couple of months ago, eight breweries where there, you know, Stone, Mother Earth, Mike Hess, Latitude 33, five of those eight had a citrus IPA. You know, three years ago how many citrus IPAs were out there? Ballast Point was there with Grapefruit Sculpin. Latitude 33 had their Blood Orange IPA. Stone had Tangerine IPA, but three years ago, how many citrus IPAs were out there, and then all these new things are coming along. Man, that Blood Orange IPA from Latitude 33 is so good. Went up to Double Peak (Park) a couple of weeks ago and came back to a Japanese restaurant, a sushi bar, and they had, you know, 00:43:00Asahi, Kirin, Sapporo and this “blood orange stuff that we can't get rid of.” “Oh, I'll take that one. Is that from Latitude 33?” “I don't know I’ll check. Yes, it's from Latitude 33.”

Bixby:Interesting.

Downie: Interesting that they wouldn't. Of course when somebody goes to a sushi restaurant, they probably want to drink culturally appropriate beer.

Lorton: This was in San Marcos, not far from where, you know, Homebrew Mart, whatever, Beer and Wine Crafts was located.

Bixby: It’s San Diego County after all.

Lorton: Oh man, it went so well, I had tempura so…

Link: Are you grasping the hops nowadays? I ‘cause we used to have…

Lorton: Yeah.

Link: You know, arguments. I really mean ‘cause I would hop my beers.

Bixby: You two would?

Link: Well exceedingly hoppy and you know, and it was way too hoppy for Greg.

Lorton: I would like a beer with a little bit of diacetyl 00:44:00in it.

Link and Bixby: Oh no!

Lorton: A little bit is a lot. This guy, if you open a beer with that in it in the room…

Bixby: He said it a long time ago and it sticks in my mind.

Link: I'm across the room going alright, who opened that up? Get that outta here!

Lorton: Yeah, you and Skip. Well I normally like Belgian beers. I like non-hoppy beers, but if I'm going to have a pizza, it's got to be an IPA. you know, I really like a hoppy beer with pizza or hot chili.

Downie: Spicy.

Lorton: Yeah. Yeah. I haven't found a wine yet that goes well with those, but, and I haven't looked real hard either. But you know, for a beer like for a food like pizza or chili and I really kinda want a hoppy beer.

Link: Chiantis, the Sangiovese with Pizza Hut. (Laughter)

Bixby: There you go.

Lorton: Oh man. Your masculinity is just gone into that. 00:45:00(Laughter) Yeah. I stopped being a wine person as soon as I discovered homebrewing. I haven't had a wine in at least a year.

Bixby: Oh, I’m afraid I am an all-purpose drinker.

Downie: Since you have made wine…

Bixby: It depends on it, whatever my mood is. Sometimes I am in the mood for hops…

Link: I don't discriminate against any alcohol.

Bixby: Nor do I.

Lorton: I don't have any wine in my house.

Bixby: A good single malt scotch sometimes that’s what you want.

Lorton: I’ve got a bottle of Laphroaig and Balmore in my refrigerator. I like them cool. But, uh, no wine.

Bixby: Oh dear.

Link: So where did we leave off on the QUAFF?

Downie: My questions were fairly generic here, so I'm just kind of looking. You've talked about the growth of the membership, which I think really says something. 00:46:00I do have other QUAFF past-presidents like Peter Zien to talk to yet, but it sounds like you are still members of a very strong supportive community and you know, you're very open minded too, except for that one thing that you've talked about that you could smell it across the room. It sounds like you're a super smeller.

Lorton: Diacetyl, it’s butter, it’s buttery aroma.

Downie: Okay.

Lorton: Really good.

Bixby:For me, it’s skunky. I’ll get the skunkiness out of anything, I hate it.

Link: Great on popcorn. Not so good in beer.

Lorton: But I mean Rich is one of these people that is, yeah…

Bixby: You know the thing you said about supportive, I think the key that I've always found with QUAFF. Supportive, not just in the, oh, who needs help brewing, but just in other ways too. When my husband died, I knew if I needed something…I'm usually, I'm a loner and I'll do it myself kind of thing. But I knew if I really needed 00:47:00something, I could call on somebody and I had many offers. So, I think that's, that's what it became, well, I mean, I said it in Sheldon’s (Kaplan) movie (SUDS County, USA). QUAFF to me was always a family, like a second family.

Lorton: I, then one thing that Rich brings is, I mean you've been all over the world tasting beer and you know, you can talk about places in Brussels to go if you want a good beer. Places, you know…

Bixby: The knowledge you mean?

Lorton: Yeah. Just, well experiencing those beers at the source. You know, for me, my favorite beer city is Bamberg, Germany.

Bixby: You like those malt beers.

Lorton: I like it. You know, the majority of the breweries there don't make smoked beers, but you know, they all make good beer and but yeah, I do love the smoked beer. I mean almost as much as 00:48:00buttery beer.

Downie: Where do you stand on smoked beer Rich?

Link: I like it. Okay. Oh yeah. You do have common ground there somewhere.

Lorton: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Link: I mean there isn't a beer style that I hate unless they put cucumber in it. (Laughter)

Bixby: I might have to agree with you on that. Like cucumber water.

Link: I haven't figured that one out yet.

Downie: That does sound like it would be a mistake.

Link: Yeah. But I see it on the shelves now.

Bixby: Oh dear. Oh you do?

Link: Yeah. Not kidding.

Lorton: I'm trying to remember if at that beer festival I had one with cucumber in it. In the competitions, I usually like to judge what we call weird beers, which is fruit beers, spice or vegetable beers, specialty. And occasionally you run into a cucumber. But I've had some cucumber beers lately. They weren't bad, but cucumber is not my favorite. I guess that's a vegetable 00:49:00I don’t know and uh, yeah, it's not, I've never made one with cucumber in it.

Bixby: I like cucumbers but not in water and probably would not like it in beer.

Link: People like it. And that's fine.

Bixby: I’ve had asparagus beer that I thought was…

Link: WOW. wow.

Bixby: No, I know when I saw it the guys were saying this is at GABF and so, ”You have to try this, you have to try that.” Oh, okay. And then it was done perfectly. It's like how do you get asparagus in a beer and not have it like be yucky or something? Although it did have the same effect after the fact, as eating asparagus, unfortunately. (laughter)

Lorton: Thank you. TMI. I’ve never had an asparagus beer. Or spinach

Bixby: It’s interesting, the different beers, you know, you run into at GABF (Great American Beer Festival) when you're, when you're working in the back with all the beers. A job. I like.

Lorton: Oh wow.

Link: I remember an early QUAFF meeting 00:50:00and the guy brought in a beer that he brewed based on some historical reading. He had dug up with bananas. And he brought it up and we're tasting it. I'm going, “Oh my God. You know, I've done everything I can to get banana tastes and flavors out of my beers. Why would you intentionally put it in?”

Bixby: That’s really interesting.

Link: Historical significance? Okay. Don’t like it.

Lorton: I've heard that.

Bixby: Not on that Sumerian tablet, I’m sure.

Downie: A sacrifice for historical research. Well, there actually is in ancient Greece, if a woman was having trouble nursing a child after birth, there was a recipe involving worms crushed up in beer to correct the situation.

Bixby:Oh, that's interesting. They could have minused the worms. I'm sure 00:51:00she would have been happier.

Downie: Yeah. Maybe. Maybe the worms were to keep her from drinking too much. I don't know, but…

Bixby: Maybe that's a good point.

Lorton: You know, probably 15 years ago we were talking about cock ale. Randy Barnes made a beer with chicken in it and it wasn't very good. He said, well, okay, I made the cock ale and Randy, he's the guy who's the vice president of educational services with a community college district.

Bixby: He’s the dean or something.

Lorton: Yeah, he's the kind of guy who would do it. He's the guy who you'd never expect is a professional, if you ever ran into him.

Bixby: That's right.

Lorton: If, but I, yeah and he’s really…

Bixby: Creative.

Lorton: And he's really smart and with a sense of humor that just would never stop.

Link: Jim Koch told me about doing that once their little brewery (Sam Adams) back in Boston. A pilot brewery. 00:52:00It wasn't so good.

Downie: Yeah, it doesn't…

Link: Throwing in chickens into the…

Bixby: I can't even, why would you even consider that?

Downie: Any meat product does not sound like it would…

Link: There is some historical significance about it, which I couldn't even grasp.

Lorton: Yeah, I didn't. Yeah, that's a good, I don't know.

Link: Cause you know he based a lot of things on historical significance.

Lorton: Yeah. Yeah.

Bixby: Oh, I am going to have to read up on that now. Chicken and beer and see what I get.

Lorton: Cock Ale. Ask Randy. He would probably recall.

Bixby: Why he would do, I don't know about the historical, maybe he would.

Lorton: Well yeah, I can't remember how we got onto that, but it was enough that it kind of sustained itself for a couple months.

Downie: That's something I'm seeing here in your stories is the fact that you're supportive of each other, that you've kept in touch with each other, that you've had fun.

Bixby: Oh my 00:53:00gosh. I don't know about these guys, but I had a blast probably, you know, I'm, I married a guy who was kinda quiet, not a social kind of person. In fact, even now when I'm thinking about him after a couple, you know, a year and a half, it's like I look up, you know, Asperger's in adults. I go, that sounds like my man. No, he just was not a social kind of guy, but QUAFF, there was a home for him in QUAFF and everybody seemed to accept him and he felt, you know, quote end quote loved there, whatever you want to call it. That was just the right place to be. I mean, it just, for us as geeky, nerdy, whatever you want to call us, we fit.

Lorton: Well, and the other thing is that, you know, one of the reasons I really like making beer as opposed to making wine is that when I was married, I had a brother-in-law who was a real wine snob and he was a 00:54:00spirits snob, and you know, it was, it just grated on me. And you know, beer people aren't like that. Well, you know, most beer people aren't.

Bixby: But do you think so? I don't think they are.

Link: There are some, but yeah, there's you know…

Lorton: There are a few that say, well, I'm not going to drink that.

Bixby: Even the women who drink wine a lot, they’ll drink beer now and then.

Link: Any, aspect of, like cheese or hamburger, anything. People are purist people. Yeah.

Lorton: You have people in QUAFF who will say, “I'm not gonna drink a Ballast Point beer because they're owned by Constellation Brands. Or I'm not going to buy a…”, you know, yeah.

Downie: Well, that can go back to when gas hit a dollar a gallon. People saying, “I'm not buying any more gas. Well, I'd like to see you try.”

Lorton: That’s the nice thing, in beer is a much more community, you know, 00:55:00it, it's…

Bixby: I'm not sure what it is across the country ‘cause I don't know anywhere else, but San Diego and I just feel they've been cooperative and giving.

Lorton: I think it’s like that in most places, yeah.

Link: Mm-hum.

Bixby: I mean, I know when I've traveled all these years with Bix, we always of course, stopped at breweries nearby, right. If not aimed towards them specifically. That if you start talking to the guys, and I always like just sitting at the bar talking to who brews this. And then pretty soon somebody comes out. Oh, let me show you my tanks. And it's usually, like Peter, and like AleSmith started out with dairy tanks or something and I, and I had to weld this and I had to do that and I go, Oh yeah. So that's just a different…

Lorton: It's like that all over the country. It, and it was funny because when I was teaching business classes that you'd have marketing people who didn't know beer saying, well, 00:56:00you know, there's not a lot of cooperation among competitors in an industry. And I say, well, you need to look at the brewing industry because you know, like, when there was a hop shortage eight years ago, you know, some brewers were giving hops to others or selling at a low price to allow them to continue. Sam Adams was selling hops, at their, you know, their costs as opposed to what the price was. You know, when there was the hop shortage.

Bixby: Oh, cause they had the option.

Link: Well, they bought futures, future contracts.

Lorton: I mean, look at all the homebrew clubs. I was looking at the names of some of those clubs, like Brewers United for Real Potables in Virginia, the Greater Denver Yeast Infection and you know, Maltose Falcons and, you know, playing on the Maltese Falcon.

Bixby: 00:57:00That’s a good one.

Lorton: There’s Foam on the Brain here. And you know, QUAFF there, there's so many funny names that Strange Brew in Oregon, you know, and in all kinds, Urban Knaves of Grain, in Chicago. Yeah, I mean there's so many funny names, so. Yeah. And that's because that's how brewers are. They, you know, Hey, you know, this is fun. You know, we're not taking it too seriously. We are, you know, really studying, brewing, but it's for fun, you know.

Bixby: Seems you know, that'd be a good lesson all over.

Link: I think is just more of a social fun drink than spirits.

Lorton: If I'm going to go to a place where I'm going to have a drink with other people and I have to go home, I'm going to have a beer. I'm not going to have a, you know, scotch on the rocks, you know, I'm not gonna to do 00:58:00that, you know?

Bixby: Well, there is a group that would do that. You know, what do they think about, you know, my martini for dinner and scotch after or…

Lorton: Beer seems like it's a much more sociable drink that let's go have a beer.

Bixby: More for the common man and we're all just common man. I don’t know, I don’t know what the deal is.

Lorton: You know, maybe a lower alcohol and a…

Link: Yes, lower alcohol. You get a pint. You can drink for a half hour or more and still drive home.

Lorton: Even if your home is like a mile away or so.

Link: Yeah, right up there.

Bixby: Mine is max 10 minutes. And that's taking the slow road here.

Lorton: Well, yeah, I was gonna say when I went to Mead Day last year, I came here first and then I got on the road and I was driving and some guy’s really slow SUV or something or a Leer truck. Oh, it's Teresa and Rich. Oh, they're going to the same place I’m going.

Link: 00:59:00It was after a day at Mead Day we decided to stop here. Yeah.

Lorton: Well I did it before, which was probably a little bit of a mistake. Yeah.

Downie: Well, one final thing I'd like to ask about…the increase of women in brewing, are you seeing that reflected in the membership in QUAFF?

Link: I can't talk to that cause I haven't been to a QUAFF meeting.

Bixby: I would, I would say no. I mean I belong to SUDS.

Downie: The San Diego sorority.

Bixby: Yeah. Yeah. And those women are not involved in commercial brewing. They are, it's not like the Pink Boots, it's more that they want to do their own thing. They know what they're doing and like, they do know what they're 01:00:00doing in spite of what you guys might think, (interjected denials from Link and Lorton) these girls do know what they're doing. In fact, I was, you know, it's really interesting cause when Juli first, Juli Goldenberg, first came up with the idea for this group (San Diego Suds Sorority), she talked at a QUAFF meeting and I said, “Oh shoot, you know, I grew up in the 60s we'd marched for equal rights, we burned our bras, we did all this kind of stuff. And why do we want to separate, you know, why do we want it something separate?” And Harold, I know I mentioned that to Harold, he goes, why don’t you just get involved in that? Why don't you see what they're all about? Cause something, I dunno what it was that he saw. So I thought. Okay. And I went and I was really impressed because they knew what they wanted to do. He knew about brewing, they had been brewing, they 01:01:00just wanted a group that wasn't going to be intimidating. And I went to a talk when we had our last (inaudible) conference here was in 2015 and it was about women. And that whole idea was a panel discussion on, I thought it was absolutely excellent cause there were groups of women from different women's groups across the country talking about that whole idea. And one other woman my age, as she appeared to be, got up and said, “Why do we want to be separated” and I go, “Oh gosh, that's what I voiced.”

Bixby: But then the group panel kind of, you know, said because when we do stuff with the guys they want to take over, you know, it's a natural…

Link: You’re a minority. It's tougher.

Bixby: Thank you very much.

Lorton: Well, no, no true.

Bixby: In the brewing community. Yes. Not in life. 01:02:00Okay, that's true. So it's like what do we know about the science or the whole art of brewing? And they said this way, you know, we have this, this separateness that we can kind of teach each other and have this open kind of a... And one of the ladies said, “All guys were asking if they could come and join. Yes, you can come and be part of it, but you have to sit over there and be eye candy.” (laughter)

Link: And don’t talk.

Bixby: Yeah. And if we need something lifted.

Downie: I was going to say there might be something of the chivalry aspect where that's big as, you're a little woman and let me help you with that.

Bixby: But I thought that was a very interesting topic and it was pertinent too. And I, since I joined the SDSS and have been part of that, I've been totally impressed with the beers that come out of there. And the girls, they're just, they're fun.

Lorton: Yeah. Well, if you look at 01:03:00who won this year at (the San Diego) International Beer Festival, I mean Liz Chism is the brewer at Council (Brewing Company). She's the one who made the beer that won. And…

Bixby: It's nice that her husband Curtis really makes a point of that is not, he's not intimidated. So for me he has a lot of…

Lorton: Well it was a little bit of a mind change too for me that, ‘cause I thought Curtis was the brewer.

Bixby: I knew from the beginning.

Lorton: He clarified that with me. That Liz is the one who brews, she's the one who makes the recipes.

Bixby: So that's very impressive. She's very good at…

Lorton: Oh yeah. Yeah. I've judged with both of them and she definitely, I mean it was clear that she really understands.

Bixby: I don’t know, I don't see, I mean I don't know what Pink Boots (Society, organization for women and non-binary brewers) says. I know there's women in the industry, but as far as home brewing, I don't see a big enough presence in 01:04:00QUAFF. And I don't know if it's intimidation. I don't think so. I don't, I think it's like what's more important in your life? What's going on? Do you need to…

Link: The time that you have available, its pretty easy to go order a beer.

Bixby:You know, a guy is going to go out, that's his thing. You know, where a woman might say I got, especially if she has kids and then she's got a job and then she's got a house and I'm sorry guys. But it's still that way you're as the female, you're still the one that, because it's your nest and it's, and that's okay. It's just, you know, when I was growing up it's like gender equality, course, you know, I will always be for financial equality, but you know, these days there is no gender equality. We are different and that's okay. And once we get past that then we can go on.

Lorton: Well, you know, before the Industrial Revolution, women were the ones who made beer. You know, that was part…

Bixby: That way 01:05:00before, cause you guys were doing the, catching those mammoths and whatever else you guys, you know.

Lorton: So you know, that was their job. I think. Yeah, it's unfortunate. I think that, you know, there is this, still you know, homebrewing is still predominantly a male kind of thing. The other thing that I think is surprising, and I didn't realize this until after I'd started all grain brewing is I'm essentially cooking, you know? Yeah. Here I am in the kitchen, slaving over a hot stove. (laughter) I'm cooking. So, yeah. And you know, and I realize, I'm creating recipes thinking, okay... (brief interruption by the server.)

Downie: You did want your crowler. 01:06:00Don’t forget.

Bixby: Oh that’s right, cause I'm going to the meeting tomorrow.

Lorton: Oh, and for Mead Day, I went to a new meadery last week in Vista.

Bixby: Which one?

Lorton: Twisted Horn.

Bixby: I've heard of that. How was it?

Lorton: Yeah, they had some good meads. I'm waiting for Billy (Beltz) to open his meadery (Lost Cause Meadery).

Bixby: Me too.

Lorton: …and he's going to be in Miramar. That's going to be something.

Link: What’s the name of it?

Lorton: Lost Cause.

Link: Isn’t there another meadery just opened there?

Lorton: Well, Twisted Horn. Oh, it's Serendipity Cider is there.

Bixby: He’s in the same spot is as...

Lorton: And I think he's been having some regulatory problems, but there are four meaderies. There's also one called Mediocrity.

Bixby: Yeah. And then the Bronto group guys.

Lorton: Oh, I haven't heard that one.

Bixby: Yeah, they're not making good stuff. Mediocrity is 01:07:00 okay.

Lorton: I have not tried theirs.

Bixby: They're like up in there. They're okay.

Link: Are they like mediocre? (laughter)

Bixby: I don't know why somebody would choose that name.

Lorton: We were talking about how about Black Plague (Brewing Company) as a name for a brewery?

Link: Yeah.

Bixby: I'm not sure where these guys come up with this stuff, but…

Lorton: Well, Twisted Horn is a big Viking thing. And they're in the area with all the Vista breweries.

Bixby: Were they on the sweet side or no, is Viking sweet?

Lorton: No, they were semi-sweet. But they had, you know, they had like, it was posted Horn Mead and Cider and I only tried the meads but they had probably six meads to choose from. The one I liked the best was a blueberry melomel, but they had various collections. I'll bring some, I'll stop by there and get a small growler to bring by. But yeah, on Lost Cause, I mean when they get situated there's going to be 01:08:00five breweries and meaderies literally across the street (Miralani Drive, San Diego) from each other.

Bixby: And sake.

Lorton: Okay. Yeah. Cause I mean Two Kids, Align, what’s that, Thunderhawk? And there’s another one, Projector?

Bixby: I know.

Downie: There's Protector.

Link: Protector. That’s the one, they're not a meadery?

Lorton: I don't think they are.

Bixby: Protector. Now see that's not one I have heard of. I can't keep up. These guys are moving too fast.

Lorton: Well yeah, I've got to talk with my son cause my son likes to make mead and…

Bixby: Oh, his son made the best. I'm sorry, I'm sorry Greg, but his bouchet was wonderful.

Lorton: Bouchet is a mead that's made from caramel from sugar that's been, or honey that's been carmelized.

Downie: Ooh.

Bixby: And you know I tasted one at Mike Buck’s. Mike Buck made one that was 01:09:00really good too.

Lorton: Yeah. I made one. But it was kind of underdone.

Bixby: Yeah, your son's was…

Lorton: Yeah, he made a good one. It was distinctive.

Bixby: I can definitely remember one. Mine just tasted really good at the beginning, getting at all those bubblegum flavors and all that. And then it just dissipated. Okay. That's not non distinct.

Lorton: Right. Unfortunately, mine is gone, long gone, so I don't know what…

Bixby: Mine's gone too.

Lorton: That tastes like. But yeah, that area, that Miralani Drive is…

Bixby: I know and it's getting…

Link: Oh, they're (Protector Brewery) all organic. Organic.

Lorton: Okay.

Downie: Yeah. I was just looking at them last night.

Bixby: Oh dear. So what’s not organic about honey?

Lorton: True.

Link: They’re not a meadery, they’re a brewery.

Bixby: Oh. Oh.

Downie: And probably the biggest challenge is organic hops.

Bixby: 01:10:00Oh, that makes sense. So is anybody doing that locally? Organic hops? I mean, how many local hops growers do we have? We have Star B (ranch and hop farm in Ramona, CA)…

Lorton: Well, I would guess I met with a guy (Eric March) from Star B one time and we were talking about you know, meads, but you know, it wouldn't surprise me. And there's an article in West Coaster I think this month about Star B also.

Bixby: Is there?

Lorton: Yeah. Get the West Coaster here.

Bixby: Is it in there?

Lorton: Yeah. Okay. But yeah, you know, I think one of the interesting things is, you know, looking at businesses and that's one thing that I've been trying to study a lot is you know, what's the factors lead to success in business. And you know, we see that, okay, apparently Lightning (Brewery, Poway CA) is selling all their 01:11:00 stuff.

Bixby: Yeah. I don't know what, Jim (Crute), I think is too academic or…

Lorton: No marketing at all.

Bixby: Yeah. I think, I mean, he was a great brewer and all that and I loved it. He was a great guy.

Lorton: But did you see Intergalactic (Brewing Company) is looking at maybe getting it, you need to get the West Coaster (San Diego brewing magazine, defunct).

Downie: And the Intergalactic website is saying that they are definitely taking a different direction, whether it's to close or…

Bixby: No kidding.

Lorton: There's an article on it.

Link: I heard that last Friday

Lorton: And you know, I think the way to go in the future is just do it small. You know, don't they expect to conquer the world?

Bixby: You mean don't start thinking Ballast Point billion dollars-ish. I think that's going to do you in, ‘cause we are San Diego and you would like some of our local, um…

Lorton: There's also an interview with Jim Crute in that and he says if he was ever to get back in the business it would be 01:12:00as a nanobrewery making a small amount of beer for a localized customer base.

Bixby: Like, like local English pub kind of thing made locally.

Link: Like this here (Burning Beard Brewery).

Bixby: Oh well like, yeah, they don't want to screw this up because this is too close to my house. And I know it's a bit like, I don't even have to go to Santee. I'm right here.

Lorton: Like I was telling Judith that El Cajon was pretty much a beer desert.

Bixby: Oh, you don't even go there. I know how many times I was like, “Oh, the Bostonia Ballroom (El Cajon, CA), that huge building there. I thought that's a great place for some fun.” Well, no, now I don't know what they're doing over there.

Link: Yeah, that area is…

Bixby: Don't say that. There's where I live. I don't know what's going on in that area.

Link: It’s a commercial area.

Bixby: I mean, I don't know what's happening with El Cajon in general.

Lorton: It’s a great place to visit, but not to live. (laughter)

Bixby: Find me a house in La Mesa so 01:13:00I can walk to a coffee.

Lorton: Yeah. But you’re east of that, right? You're closer to Alpine than anybody else here.

Bixby: Yeah. I am close to Alpine.

Bixby: Yeah. I used to go the Breadbasket all the time when before it was Alpine Brewing.

Lorton: Is that right?

Bixby: Yeah.

Downie: Well, at this point I'm going to end our recording and I want to thank you all for the time and the stories. This has been absolutely fascinating. I'm filling in some of the gaps and given me leads of more people to go chase down for more histories.