Rios, Dan. Interview, April 15, 2017.

Alexa Clausen: This is April 15th, 2017. Session two with Dan Rios regarding his career as Chief Photographer with the (Escondido) Daily Times-Advocate. Now, Dan, we left off (last interview) having you hear about a job in Escondido, not really sure that you’d been to Escondido many times and going to a newsstand and literally picking up the paper. And then you were telling me how impressed you that the paper being so crisp and vivid. And that’s where we left you off. You literally went to a newspaper stand and grabbed a paper. So tell me your steps to getting hired.

Dan Rios: Yeah. Well, I saw the paper and I was really amazed at how good it looked. So I was working for Mr. Boyd in Hillcrest, and on Monday I asked him if 00:01:00I could take the morning off to come and apply for the job. And I did. I drove down here. I met with Curt Babcock, who was the City Editor. He introduced me to George Cordry, assistant City Editor, and Ron Kenny, the Managing Editor.

They interviewed me, they saw my portfolio, they saw my brag book and one question they kept repeating was, Did I know how to do color? Since I specialized in color the last year at school (Mesa College), I showed them my color brochure, that I had processed all the film, I had processed all the pictures and they seemed to be pleased with that. That was the end of that interview. Later that day they called and said I was hired and for me to come in the following Monday.

AC: Could you give me a date on that?

DR: That was the week that—that was 1968. I believe it was 00:02:00May, when Robert Kennedy was killed.

AC: Oh my gosh.

DR: I started working the week Robert Kennedy died.

AC: He was assassinated in Los Angeles.

DR: Yes. Yes, by Sirhan Sirhan. They asked me if I can come in on Monday and my shift would be from 7:00 o'clock in the morning until whenever. (chuckles) Whenever I was done. The only problem is I had an appointment with the DMV because I had gotten so many driving tickets. I had an appointment with them on that Monday, so I had asked them if I can postpone it for one day. They agreed. I didn't tell them why. The deal he gave me a one-year probationary period. One more ticket and my license was suspended. So, on Tuesday, the following week, I started.

AC: Now let me ask you, were you replacing someone who had retired, or this was a new position for them?

DR: They had only hired a part-time photographer.

AC: They had a 00:03:00part-time uh-huh.

DR: And he had left three, four or five months before me coming here. They had a reporter by the name of Mary Jane Morgan who seemed to know the photography, seemed to know the processing, and she was doing some processing plus her reporting duties. She would process the film for the editorial staff. Because every reporter took their own pictures basically. There were pool cameras. And they went assignment, they took their own pictures, they brought the film in. Mary Jane would process it. In Advertising also they had a pool camera and they would do the same.

So when I showed up on Tuesday, there was a stack of rolls of film for me to process. And get busy and organize the dark room and see what the supplies were—chemicals and paper and equipment. I got busy organizing it and started right in. I don't think I got my first assignment until about a week later. 00:04:00And I started--my first assignment--I remember my first assignment was at the Escondido Village Mall at the Walker Scot Pavilion there. Mrs. Purer, Edith Purer I think her name was. I think there’s a road by your--

AC: Yes.

DR: (unintelligible) Purer Road. Named after her family. And it was an art exhibit, art contest. So that was my first photograph. Of that.

Subsequently I started doing a lot of dark room work in the morning and then shooting the afternoon assignments in the afternoon. I would shoot anything from mug shots to sports events, to society, to accidents, to trials. Everything except professional sports. I was never really much interested in professional sports.

AC: And you'd have to what? You’d have to cover the (San Diego) Chargers?

DR: No.

AC: 00:05:00Where would they send you fort professional—they didn’t do much of that?

DR: No. No. They relied on AP and UPI photos.

AC: They bought them. Yeah.

DR: Yeah, subscribed to those services and--

AC: Had you moved to Escondido? Were you commuting?

DR: No, I was commuting. I was getting up at five o' clock in the morning, had a little breakfast, get ready, get dressed. Get out at six and drive a two-lane road to Escondido. I would arrive at work, seven o'clock, work until I was done. Sometimes at work I would have a three, four hour lay-over because my shift would end, but a sporting event would come in. Or a society event would come in later in the day, in the evening. And I would have to stay for that.

AC: Were you hourly or salary?

DR: I was hourly. A very, very meager salary actually. Well that was one of the conditions that I accepted at work. I talked to my bosses and I said, “You know, you guys aren't paying me a lot of money, I need to earn more money. Am I going to be permitted to use the dark room for my own purposes, for 00:06:00moonlighting?” They said, Yes, no problem, whatever you want. The darkroom is yours after hours.

AC: It's the plight of every artistic person. You know? The job and the labor of love.

DR: I was fortunate. I got along with everybody, everybody was fantastic. It was just a great boss--Kirk Babcock, the city editor. He could understand my photography. He knew what I was going after and he would compliment me on that. So, it got to the point that it was all over town. And then one of my assignments, we had something called "The North County." (Times-Advocate North County magazine) Which was a Sunday supplement. A magazine type thing. Tabloid type thing. And I was in charge of providing the photography for the cover. Every week, besides my other assignments. There were days when I would scramble all over town trying to find something. It was mostly artsy-fartsy stuff on the cover. Whatever I wanted. They never censored me. They never told me 00:07:00what they wanted.

AC: Wow!

DR: But it got to a point where I got to know the town. And I would drive a thousand, fifteen-hundred miles a month all over town, and all over the North County, and some assignments in San Diego--not too many. And I would shoot what they called "grab art." Whenever I saw something interesting, I’d take a picture of it. And eventually we had so many of those we couldn't even run them in the paper. And I suggested once that we run a special photo page. No theme, nothing. Just to use the pictures, and on Sunday it was a whole picture. And I came up with the name of "focal reflections." And they were just people, places, events, scenery. Just artsy stuff that I shot that we couldn't use in the paper. And we got a lot, a lot of comments on that.

AC: When they were sending you on assignment, 00:08:00were you filling in between what the reporters were doing, or they were there own stories? So were you backing up an assignment of a journalist?

DR: Well, most of the time I would go out with a journalist. He would ask questions, I would take pictures. Or if he had gone out and did the story, then they would assign me to go ahead and cover the story (unintelligible). A perfect example of that is--did I ever tell you about Rancho Guajome?

AC: No.

DR: Eloise Perkins, a historical writer grabbed a hold of me with both fists around my neck (laughs). And she would send me on assignments that she had problems with. And one day I was sitting around--there was two events she sent me on. One, I was sitting around. She said, “What are you doing?” I said, “I’m waiting for an assignment later this afternoon.” (She) says there is this adobe, an abandoned adobe in Vista. Would you go take pictures of it? She gave me the address and I found it. I walked all over the 00:09:00place taking pictures of it. It was collapsing, the floors were rotted, the walls were crumbling.

AC: This was before the County bought it and restored it.

DR: Yeah. It was just abandoned, I thought. I walked around. I must have spent an hour, hour and half. I went around the back, on the north end of it, there was a trailer there. This man walks out with a shotgun and asked me what the hell was I doing there? I showed him my credentials. I told him what I was doing. He told me he didn't care. He said, If I didn't get my rear end out of there in a hurry that he would start shooting.

AC: Oh my god. Thank you, Eloise.

DR: So, I got back to Eloise and Eloise just cracked up laughing. She said, “Did that nut threaten you?” I said, “Yeah!” She says, “He chased me away so many times I can't get through the--

AC: So she sends you.

DR: And those negatives are in the files. Two and a quarter-inch negatives of all that stuff.

AC: You know, you did have—after we shut off the tape, a kind of a get to know Eloise, so I’ll type that 00:10:00up and we can add onto the--

DR: Yeah. She did another one, another Eloise trick she did on me, was at Carrillo Ranch before it became anything. The old lady, Delpy I think her name was, was there.

At that point I had a little fame going there at the (newspaper). That I could get along with old ladies. Old ladies and I had a rapport. They would offer me coffee, they would offer me tea, drinks—sodas, whatever. So, Eloise again played a trick on me. She says, Go see Mrs. Delpy at Carrillo Ranch. Take some pictures. So I got there, knocked on the door. She ushered me in, sat me down, offered me coffee, cookies. Told her what I wanted, what I do. She opened up these (photo) albums. with her mother, her stepmother, her stepfather, her family, (Leo) Carrillo, the gatherings, the movie stars. And I started taking copy, 00:11:00photographs of it. And I was there maybe two--two and a half hours talking with her. And eventually I went outside. The stables still were—still had the tack from the early days just rotting away in the stables.

So, I again I showed up with Eloise and she’s laughing, said “How did you do with the old lady.” I says, “Great. You know, coffee, tea, cookies, conversation, she was fantastic.” She says, “Oh my god I can't believe it.” So I got a little history there with old ladies. I can handle old ladies, and I got along with them. I got along with everyone. I loved Escondido. The people were just fantastic. I never saw any prejudice on my part. I never experienced it. We had two Hispanic employees in the editorial room. Me and Joe Heredia, who had been there before I was. He subsequently--he had a heart attack and died on the job.

AC: Oh my.

DR: But--never any problem. I was getting to know people and at that point I 00:12:00had a pretty good memory. I could recognize faces and names. I got to know the city councilmen, most of the Fire Department. And they would call me when things were happening. I got to know the councilmen personally, the mayors, the city attorneys, and had a really good rapport. I loved the city. I loved the population. I loved the society people. They were so gracious.

I remember once, they showed me—there was a—can't think of the charity—was a meeting. It was I think in the Fall or toward the Winter. And I showed up. I would pick on one person in a group and semi, lightly make fun of them. To loosen up the room. I wasn't mean, I wasn't vicious.

AC: Just teasing.

DR: Yeah, just teasing a little bit. So I got to 00:13:00this meeting there early and they were about to have lunch, and they invited me to have lunch. And I said sure. So I had a few snacks here and there and a cup of juice and sat down in front. They got done. And they sat them down and I picked on this one woman. And she was laughing, everyone was laughing. Just to loosen the group up. Then I went to get my IDs, left to right, front to back. And I get back one, the middle one. And her name—by the way the name of the owners (of the Times-Advocate) were Carlton and Applebee. Mrs. Applebee.

AC: Now, Lucy (Berk) said—not Applegate?

DR: No. Applebee.

AC: Like the restaurant. Oh.

DR: Applebee. So I got to the middle of the row and this woman. I asked her about her name. To give me her name. Oh god, I can’t remember her first name. An Applebee. And I dropped my pen and my pad of paper and looked at her says, “(and) that’s 00:14:00Mrs. Carlton?” She says, “Mm-hmm.” (Rios and Clausen laugh)

AC: Oh they were the owners' wives.

DR: Yeah, and I'm jiving with her, I’m teasing her, and I said, Oh god, that's the end of my job. Never brought it up. We became fast friends after that.

AC: And this sounds like a style that worked for you to have people relax so you don't have those (stiff) photos.

DR: Oh no no, I wouldn’t permit that. Wouldn’t permit hands in front of their bodies either, hiding their crotch. They had to hug people, put their hands in their hands, put hands on their backs. Couldn’t stand these people, just their hands just hanging down.

AC: Now you did kind of refer to someone--was it Mr. Babcock--someone said that they liked your style, they knew what you were doing.

DR: Yeah, Curt

AC: Would you just expand on that a little bit? I'm assuming it’s like a methodology or an artistic approach.

DR: Yes. I try to 00:15:00present a viewpoint. Semi-hidden, maybe not so hidden, but I always tried to present a viewpoint. Either through the angle or the lighting. A lot of the time I would take my own lighting. In fact somebody commented--they wrote me a letter that they liked my photography. It reminded them of the earlier photographers in the Midwest. They use to do that. Take multiple lights and set up a little lighting (unintelligible) they were portable. And that was my own device that I thought about. And Curt came up—in fact I was there about six months, and he came up to me, and slapped my back, he says, “How is my serendipity photographer.” No, no, no. Not serendipity. It was “ubiquitous.” “How is my ubiquitous photographer.” I had no idea what that meant.

AC: You ran to the dictionary?

DR: (laughs) Oh yes.

AC: What did he mean?

DR: That I was all over town, like a plague.

AC: Oh! But it was a compliment.

DR: Oh yes. Yes. I was covering everything. My photographs, I had four, 00:16:00five, six photographs in the paper daily. I was doing all the sports, society, the mug shots, and the features, and the artistics, and the grab art. As I said, I would work in the darkroom until noon, and the afternoon it was mine to do what I wanted to. I would do the assignments, do my own, do whatever. The following morning, I would come in to process all the film, do all the proof sheets. Start printing pictures for the advertising, and the editorial, and my own stuff.

AC: Had they thought of getting you extra help?

DR: They did. About a year later.

AC: So, about 1970?

DR: Uh-huh, about the middle of 1970. Well people would constantly apply. They would send their resume in. They would send their portfolios, a portion of them. At that point the paper was too small--the salaries were cheap to put it mildly. But I loved the 00:17:00place, and after a year I was planning to go back to San Diego, but I said there was no way I’m going back to San Diego.

AC: Oh, you wanted to stay here.

DR: Yes, I wanted to stay here. I loved the place, I tolerated the heat.

So when they were wanting to hire, I saw this portfolio. Since as a youth, I was never involved in sports, never played sports. Not in school, not extra(curricular), never played sports and I wasn’t that familiar with them. I played softball in grade school, but you know that’s nothing. And then I saw the portfolio of this photographer, Jim Baird and it blew me away. The man was just a phenomenal photographer. And I went to Ron Kenny, I says “I want to hire this guy.” Because he loved sports. Which is something I didn't do and I didn't like! I said he could take that weight off my shoulders. And he could do it with an artistic flair that I could never do.

And about 00:18:00that point the Padres had started playing at Petco Park—was called Jack Murphy, or San Diego stadium.

AC: Yeah, the old Qualcomm--

DR: Yes. And he would assign himself games because he loved it so much. And I was happier than he was for him to do it. And he did that. And eventually he wanted to do a lot of his own darkroom work and printings that was just fine. But it got to the point where I was doing too much darkroom, not enough photography. So, I went to Ron Kenny again, and I asked him if I can hire a lab tech. Then I could do all-day shooting. Between Baird and myself, we would do the assignments. Then the darkroom technician was Lowell Thorp. He was an older man. He was in his fifties I think at the time. So, he interviewed and he said he 00:19:00wanted no part of photography. He had done that at his previous job and he just wanted darkroom work.

And the man was super meticulous. He would come in at five o'clock in the morning. And do all the film, all the proofs. People would hand in their proof sheets with their marked photographs and their crop, and he would supply them. He would hand them out, he would keep the inventory.

AC: When do you think this was, what year? Because you said you-- (unintelligible)

DR: Jim Baird. Yeah. Jim Baird. Maybe a year later.

AC: So ‘71 maybe.

DR: And he retired there (at the Times-Advocate), he worked I think fifteen years, retired there. At the end of the year he would produce the summary of all film, all the paper, all the chemicals, everything that was used in the darkroom. The guy was just meticulous, he 00:20:00just loved that place.

AC: It was a little bit like his lab? Like his--

DR: Oh it was his domain. Oh my god. If you worked there, he allowed you to work there, but you had better have it clean when you left. I remember when one time there was a reporter, I don't want to name his name, he works for the San Diego Union now. He liked to take his own pictures, and he was on the City Beat. He would get off the City Council Beat at ten-eleven o'clock at night, come in and process the film, print it, go home. Probably one-two o'clock in the morning, go home, come back maybe ten o'clock the following day. Well Lowell got in one day when this reporter had made a mess. He called him at 5 o'clock in the morning to get his butt in there, clean the place up because nothing was going to be done that day until he got there and cleaned his mess up. And he just sat until this reporter showed up. And he did clean the mess up and Lowell started working again.

AC: How funny.

DR: But he was picky, he was meticulous. He didn't 00:21:00care who worked there. Just clean your mess up.

AC: It sounds like in a matter of three years, they hired you and then three-four years made an entire grouping of an entire photographic system from nothing. From having part-time photographers. So North County (San Diego) started a little boom at about the same time.

DR: Oh yeah. It was flourishing. It was flourishing.

AC: So that reflected in their demand for the newspaper.

DR: Yeah. I don’t remember what year it was, early in the in the 70's. We won an award for the best layout in a newspaper regardless of size. And we were winning awards left and right. Editorial awards. I was never very competitive. I was never much into (photography) contests, after school. Didn’t interest me. I don’t know if I mentioned Edith Purer and her--I did join those a couple years. 00:22:00Printed some 16 x 20 prints, won first place, second place, third place in those events. After a couple years I stopped participating in that.

AC: So that was your own artistic photography?

DR: Yes.

AC: What was your specialty, what did you like in your own work?

DR: Just sceneries, evening shots, sunsets.

AC: Color?

DR: Yes, yes. Well no, not all color, some black and white. Would you like some water, I’m sorry--

AC: No, thank you.

DR: If I could take you to the computer, I’ve got a screen saver--

AC: Okay.

DR: --with some of my pictures. Thank you, Terry (for water). Some of my pictures that I like, that are put on there. On the—but mostly travel. When I was in school, in fact when I was in school, Mr. Dendle, my teacher asked me if I wanted to work for a traveling 00:23:00company, shooting landscapes for post cards, for different cities. That's all I would do is travel across the country photographing cities.

AC: I’ll be darned. That’s how they did those, yeah--

DR: Scenery, and cities and whatever--

AC: Landmarks, museums, yeah.

DR: Yeah. Send it to the company and they would ship it out to the cities in those stands that they had, those rotating stands. I said, no I wasn't interested in that.

AC: Yeah, I like postcards. I don’t have a huge amount but I love it. I love it.

DR: And I said, no, I didn’t. But I like scenery, sunsets and that kind of stuff. Nature.

AC: I think—maybe people know this if you’re artistic but you have a job, finding time to have a life and your art is difficult. You know, writers do this, and other artists. That balancing the job, the family, and all 00:24:00that. So, had you moved to Escondido yet?

DR: No. Was it? Well, yes, by that point. Because I--In getting up at five o'clock in the morning and driving to Escondido to be here at seven o'clock, and then working all day and driving back home--I was living in Hillcrest, and I would start dozing off. Two or three times I dozed off and woke up, so, this was not good. Because I was putting in eight, nine, ten hours a day. I’d have a split shift and work late at night and--

AC: Did they start constructing I-15 yet?

DR: No. I've got pictures of Rancho Bernardo with the cows in the pastures where West Bernardo is now.

AC: Yeah. With cattle (unintelligible).

DR: Yeah. Got pictures of those.

AC: So, did they promote you, technically, were you--

DR: No (Rios laughs), I was always Chief Photographer. It was just assumed I was Chief Photographer. There was 00:25:00no ceremony, there was nothing. When my cards came by, it was “Chief Photographer Dan Rios.”

AC: Right. So they were too busy publishing a paper to get all these formalities. (Rios laughs)

DR: Yeah. Oh yeah.

AC: So once it (the Times-Advocate) grew to have a full shop, meaning, you're on assignments, you’re out of the darkroom, you have a tech guy, you have an assistant doing sports. Was--

DR: No he was full time.

AC: A full timer.

DR: Full time, yeah.

AC: So, was--

DR: But he loved sports, specialized in sports which was good for me.

AC: Was that the largest the staff ever got?

DR: No.

AC: Okay, so you’re still growing.

DR: It continued to grow. After that we had some stringers. There was a man by the name of Mike Franklin who worked in the production department, who decided he wanted to be a photographer and bought a whole lot of equipment. And came in here and just picked our brains. He wanted to know so much while he was working and then on his days off, we’re talking 00:26:00about he would come back in the dark room and he would chat with Jim and myself about photography, lenses, cameras, film, processing, all kinds of stuff. He never had formal training, but his enthusiasm was just so overwhelming. Eventually, he was hired part time and then full time. And he was a great compliment. He was very good, very artistic. Hard working.

AC: What was his name?

DR: Mike Franklin. Hispanic. He was a hard, hard, hard worker.

AC: Is this still 1970's?

DR: Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah.

AC: Yeah, okay, so they—the paper’s expanding.

DR: Right. Yeah. I will tell you how much it was expanding. Mr. Applebee had us all--everybody in the place--gather in the production department and he told us that he was going to give us a gift. He was starting a profit-sharing plan. 00:27:00Way back when. And he told us, early 70s? Maybe ‘72, ‘73? He told us then that by the time we all retired, if we stayed with the paper long enough, that we would have a lump sum of maybe $100,000 in our retirement fund.

AC: And who knew the decline of the paper, huh?

DR: Yeah. Soon after, because I think he sold the paper in ‘76, the profit sharing stopped. But those funds were kept up by the Chicago Tribune who bought the paper, and they invested in Chicago Union stock which did diddly forever. But even today I'm still receiving benefits from that retirement fund. A good portion of my retirement fund is Mr. Applebee.

AC: Well good for 00:28:00him. It was the right thing to do. They couldn’t keep up a fancy salary, and you were working--

DR: It was never fancy. But I made enough money on moonlighting—you were saying about the spouses—I would work all day and then take assignments. One of the editors would find jobs for you. A lot of jobs. But I would get a lot of jobs, people calling, do you do this? Sure, sure, sure, sure. And I would be working until twelve, one o'clock at night.

AC: So when Applebee sells in the 70's, and you are now working for Chicago Tribune, did you sense a difference? Was there any--

DR: Oh it was an earthquake of a change of a difference! They brought in a new publisher who brought in a new city managing editor, who got rid of 50% of the people in the place. At that point, ‘76 I think it was—myself, 00:29:00Jim, Mike, him, him, him—had six photographers on the staff when the paper sold.

AC: And he let go half of them?

DR: No. They started leaving by themselves. Jim Baird went to the Union, (San Diego Union Tribune), Mike Franklin went to the Union eventually, Sean Haffy later on who also went to the Union. Mike—not Mike Nelson, there was a Nelson character, also went to the Union. Some of them went to the L.A. Times after that. Another Hispanic, Manuel—Manuel something or other, forget his last name, was working there.

AC: How did they backfill those jobs? Or was it back to you working 00:30:00crazy hours?

DR: No, at that point the new regime that came in started laying off people left and right. And I was not--l had been a golden haired boy with Ron Kenney, and the old staff, and the Applebees. When the new staff came in, I was walking on quicksand because they were laying off so many people. I mean, they laid off half the staff for no reason!

We had a city (editor) who was just an ass. Want me to name his name?

AC: Sure. Well, its up to you.

DR: Eh. A total ass. He would scream at people, verbally insulting people to their face because of their writing. He never did that to me. But I never trusted him, I never liked him. So about a year after the Chicago Tribune bought the paper, I was called up to the office to the 00:31:00publisher, John Armstrong. He told me I was no longer needed as the Chief Photographer. I could remain on the staff, same salary, same benefits, same hours. And no excuse.

AC: So what was his point?

DR: They would just fire people. Left and right. I think they wanted to get their own group.

AC: Shake up everyone?

DR: And before the city editor—oh, Tom Nolen, was the city editor’s name. He started the firing people after, I mean he was the one who would scream and yelling at people. And he would intimidate them, they would leave on their own.

AC: Did these people come from another area?

DR: All from the East Coast.

AC: They were?

DR: All from the East Coast. Chicago would just send them all down. In fact, all the comptrollers, all the business people.

AC: So they wanted to move their own people here.

DR: Oh yeah. They just moved their whole--

AC: And get everyone that wanted out of Chicago to 00:32:00come here and have a job. Oh my.

DR: And about that time—because working for the Applebees was a dream, it was a (dream) job come true. When Curt Babcock left—he went to the Albuquerque paper, George Cordry took it (Babcock’s position). And I used to tell my wife, if I ever have a dream job and a dream boss, it would be George Cordry, would be my boss. And a year later, he became my boss. And he was just a fantastic boss.

AC: So things settle down?

DR: Well, yeah, Ron Kenny—George Cordry was let go. All the City Editors were let go, they put their own staff in. Ron Kenney who had been Managing Editor, became Assistant Publisher and they gave him an office next to John Armstrong. Second floor, with absolutely nothing to do. No assignments, no writing, nothing. The gave an office, a desk, a phone, a typewriter. He said he read the San 00:33:00Diego Union from page to everything, the LA Times every day. Then he would go to lunch. Come back and sit around with nothing to do. Eventually--

AC: So was that their way of letting go people without having benefits? I mean--

DR: Well, I don't know what their deal was. When Applebee--

AC: Not giving them unemployment? They didn’t want to give them unemployment?

DR: I don’t know what the deal was.

AC: Or the contract or something? The contract--

DR: Maybe it was in the contract with Applebee. But what Applebee did when he sold the paper, I believe he sold it for $15 million dollars. He gave all the managers something like $100,000 each.

AC: Bonus?

DR: Yeah. And every employee—paid them $100 for every year they worked for the paper. Handed everybody checks before he left. And I don't know whether Ron Kenney, who was Assistant Publisher, what kind of deal he 00:34:00had, but he had his money and eventually he quit and moved to Pennsylvania, bought a little store, and I think he started a little store, hotel or motel. Eventually he came back and went to work for the San Diego Union as editorial writer. A good writer. Ron Kenny’s a good writer.

AC: You know, I’m thinking, and you tell me, if this is this a good place to stop, because you know the transcription on 35 minutes—you know I’m going to be doing (unintelligible). But do you—is a good stop the Chicago Tribune years?

DR: Sure. They were not fun. Not fun. In fact let me tell you a little story. When they moved in, after a year or so, one of my favorite reporters, Bob MacDonald, a columnist had retired and we would get coffee almost every morning. And I told him about my problems with the Chicago Tribune and with 00:35:00John Armstrong. How I was walking on eggshells. I didn't want to lose my job, my security. I loved the town. I didn't want to move anywhere. At that point I had family here, I had roots here, I didn’t want to go anywhere. So I talked to MacDonald about my problems and he said, “Do you like the job, do you like your work?” “Yeah, but they’re not giving me a whole lot of assignments.” Maybe one or two a day, where I was taking five, six, seven assignments. I was busy—you know, “ubiquitous Rios.” He said, “Tell you what, take their check, cash it, spend it, live it up. Don't worry about that. If they want to fire you, eventually they will. If they don't, they too will get fired some day.” And they did. Tom Nolen got canned.

END SESSION 2