Brodowsky, Glen. Interview June 14th, 2024.

00:00:04Sean Visintainer: This is Sean Visintainer with California State University San Marcos. Today is June 14th, 2024, and I'm interviewing Dr. Glen Brodowsky, professor of Marketing. Dr. Brodowsky, thank you for joining us today.

00:00:17Dr. Glen Brodowsky: It's a pleasure to be here.

00:00:19Visintainer: Well, thank you. And, I wanted to start off just talking about the university, kind of the early days when you came to the university and so I wanted to ask you about your journey into higher education, and just how you decided to become a professor.

00:00:33Brodowsky: Well, I, my original plan was to--I was a,-- majored in Chinese studies and I spoke Mandarin early into my twenties, and I thought I'd have a phenomenal career in international business and then retire into higher education. Well, it didn't work out quite that way. It came out to be the reverse where I had--couldn't find a, a business career. I stayed on and did my PhD at University of Buffalo, and it was a bad market year, and there were no jobs. I didn't get a job. And then I got this phone call in the spring, well, after the market was over from then, the dean of a place called Cal State San Marcos. And I said, are you still on the record? Well, maybe, yeah, maybe. would you be able to come out for an interview next week? Let me check my calendar. Yeah, I think I could come. So I came out here on April 15th, tax day of 1996, desperate for a job but didn't wanna let on. And by the end of the day, I had the job. And so here I was coming and they were apologizing, saying, the salary is not very high. And, I said, listen, you'll pay me to come here and teach, where do I sign? and I was very, very grateful to have that opportunity, 'cause it wasn't guaranteed at that time. And, things happened during my first year. The death of my partner happened the first year. Lots of crazy stuff. Moving across country, finishing a PhD program, defending, taking care of a cancer patient, burying him all within one year. That was my first year here, but the people who were around me, in the college of business, were very, very supportive and were with me throughout that whole process. And you don't forget things like that. I mean, I don't know if I would've been treated that well anywhere else in the world. So, I was very grateful to be here, have been grateful to be here for many years, and I'm grateful that I've had 28 wonderful years here at the Cal State San Marcos.

00:02:45Visintainer: Yeah. So, you said that you were kind of headhunted, they found you and contacted you.

00:02:50Brodowsky: Well, they found me, I guess my advisor sent out a bunch of letters and, and they called me and said, oh, sure. I saying, where's that? I've never heard of it. I mean, it was, who knew? But then I said, near San Diego. And I thought, well, that doesn't sound half bad, you know? 'cause 'cause I was in Buffalo at the time, and it was winter. So, it sounded very attractive. And then, so that was it. And that, the rest is, -- 28 years later here I sit on a very, very different campus than I started out on.

00:03:20Visintainer: Yeah. And I wanted to ask you about the campus, but I guess I wanted to ask you first, like, what were your first impressions when you visited for that interview?

00:03:27Brodowsky: Well, they brought me in the back way of what was then Craven Hall, and now the Administrator Building. They brought me through this blue hallway, through this labyrinth. I didn't know where they were taking me into the bowels of this building. I thought, there were lots of staircases, very few buildings, or three buildings, like 10 staircases. And I thought, what is, this does not look like a college campus. What am I, what am I getting myself into? didn't seem like much, but they had this diorama and say, in 2025, this is what we're gonna look like. And we don't look quite exactly like that. But we've grown certainly to that level. So, but it seemed kind of a bit of a pipe dream at the time because it was so new and lots of dirt and lots of staircases and, and on a windy day, you can tell that we were built on a chicken ranch.

00:04:20Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. How could you tell?

00:04:23Brodowsky: Well, the wind would, carry a certain .

00:04:26Visintainer: So, so the ranch was still in existence?

00:04:28Brodowsky: Very fresh, very fresh in our minds. Yeah. There was a Hollandia dairy, which was across the freeway. So, this was the country. There was nothing here. There's very, very-- that whole shopping center was--none of the apartments were there, nothing. It was just really very open.

00:04:48Visintainer: Yeah. Was how, how big was San Marcos at the time?

00:04:52Brodowsky: I think it was about 40,000 people at the time. It was very small. I chose to live in San Marcos for the first, I think, until 2003. So seven years. I lived on San Marcos Boulevard. I had an apartment at the Benchmark Apartments, and then I bought my first condor across the street, which is, the ones right next to the Home Depot, which didn't exist when I got here. So, the Home Depot, that is.

00:05:19Visintainer: And I'm sure traffic wasn't as bad on San Marcos (inaudible).

00:05:21Brodowsky: Well, San Marcos was, the only thing that was bad was that, that bridge getting onto the campus was only two lanes. and so it could take a good 20 minutes to get onto and off campus, even though we were small. And then it took several years to build that bridge. So it was always tricky getting onto and off of our campus.

00:05:41Visintainer: And where did you start teaching? Like what, what building were you in?

00:05:45Brodowsky: Well, my office was on the second floor of what was then Craven Hall for 10 years in a windowless office across from the men's room and my first class was in, what is, I guess it's ACD on the second floor.

00:06:02Visintainer: Was the, was the College of Business, was it all located?

00:06:08Brodowsky: We were all located on the second floor of Craven Hall.

00:06:13Visintainer: Okay. Interesting. Interesting. So how have you seen the campus change over the years?

00:06:19Brodowsky: Well, I mean, the first thing that came up was University Hall. Which we apparently had the option on, and we passed on. And, so that came up. And then I remember saying to President Gonzalez, to whom I was a consultant on a few projects, when we built the track and field of the Mangrum track--Mrs. Mangrum, her family did that for us-- He said, we have a track. We look like a real campus now. And I said to him, Alex, build me a library, and then we can talk. Because at that time, the library was also located in Craven Hall. And that was on the third and fourth floors. And it was this black area. It was--this walls were black and there were pipes, and it was weird. We were all in that same building. It's kind of where the Cougar Central used to be the library. And then, I ran into Alex Gonzalez a number of years later at what was the new Ralph's across the way. And we were looking out across the campus, and here was Kellogg Library. And I said, Alex, you made good on the promise. you've done good. You built me a library. Now we're a real campus.

00:07:28Visintainer: Yeah.

00:07:29Visintainer: I didn't, oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

00:07:31Brodowsky: And, and really, the whole campus, really center of the campus moved here upon the opening this plaza out here, because we used to be centered at the dome. The dome was the major gathering place in the early years. This was all just, nothing. It was an empty lot. So, you saw this huge migration of the campus towards this, what is now the center of the campus, which is kind of this Kellogg terrace. And, and then later on came, the Student Union and the, the new building for SBSB and the new Science (Hall) too. that all came much later on, but the ca--and now with the housing going down the hill, it's like what used to be the center of campus is like this little outpost up there, which is the dome. Which is where the Bookstore is. But no, you don't see much going on there.

00:08:25Visintainer: Yeah. So what was, you said it was kind of the center of campus and activity. What was happening there?

00:08:29Brodowsky: Well we would have lunch there. We had, we had meetings there, we had events there. the (Academic) Senate used to meet in that building. So that was kind of the building that was, the facility, and now it's kind of, it's just kind of, kind of an appendage. It, it really has lost its centrality to the campus.

00:08:49Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. You also mentioned the University Hall. You mentioned it was passed on, and I was just curious what you meant by that.

00:08:57Brodowsky: The dean at the time, who was my very, very good friend, who was a mentor of mine, who lives in Chicago as well, she's 85, and she's amazing, was the dean at the time. And she didn't really like what she saw in the plans for the building, how it was set up. So she decided that we would wait for something to come, the next building phase. So we stayed in Craven Hall until 2006.

00:09:20Visintainer: Wow.

00:09:21Brodowsky: So, and we're very pleased with Markstein Hall. I think it's a great facility and, world class in terms of classrooms. I was on the, on the committee that designed the building. So I remember taking the architects around to U Hall (University Hall) and other places saying, see, this classroom, don't do this. don't set it up like this. This does not work. This is too wide and too shallow, or, and then I remember, we had all these vendors sending us chairs, and I was having a butt, testing, lab in the buildings, because I short people and tall people and fat people and thin people trying out all these different chairs to go into the different rooms in Markstein. So, there's things that I could look at that are designed into that building and--said, that was my idea to that. And it was nice. Like, we have these benches that are throughout the second and third floors, along the hallways where the students could actually sit outside the classroom while they're waiting, because when we were in the Administrative Building, there's no place for students to sit. So they'd sit on the floor, it's like, we could put a bench there. It would be kind of a nice thing. Welcoming.

00:10:37Visintainer: Yeah. How, how long was that process of, uh.

00:10:41Brodowsky: The planning.

00:10:42Visintainer: The planning, and especially like the involvement of the committee with the architecture?

00:10:46Brodowsky: I think we started planning probably around 2002, 2003. It was a multi-year plan, and then we planned, the office space and how we'd maximize the number of windows. And if you go into that building, you'll notice that, on--it's actually two buildings. It's a class from one, which is three stories and the office one, which is four. And the hallways are quite wide on one side, but on the office area, it's like you feel like you're inside of a train, there's narrow, narrow passageways. And that was done so that we could maximize square footage for offices and classrooms. The state allocates a certain number of square feet, no matter what you--how you use them. And so, people will sit at the halls, feel very narrow and closed in. And warren like, but that's because we've maximized the number of window offices. So, we just had to create it because you, there, there are mandates on how much space a faculty office can have and how much, classroom space has to be available relative to office space.

00:11:51Visintainer: Okay. That's really interesting. And I think it probably explains why a lot of academic buildings look the way that they do. Huh. Very interesting. Thank you. Who was involved on that, committee.

00:12:03Brodowsky: At the time? This man named Russ Decker and Diane Malone. They were from, Building Planning and Design, BPD, and then the Dean, and Regina Eisenbach was on the committee, and Ben Cherry was on the committee, and a couple of other people. But that's off the top of my head--it was a real fun committee to be on. And one of the arguments is that I really want to-- I, I'm looking at these windows in your door. And I really wanted that in the building because I thought it would be nice for you to look out. And I see that most people cover those, and they don't like them. They feel it's a violation of privacy. But I just thought--I liked that idea. That was one I was shot down on. I'm still, annoyed about that because I really wanted one of those.

00:12:50Visintainer: Well, so you ran into, you ran into headwinds there. What were--you mentioned that the seat testing was one of the things that you were involved in. What were some of the other things that you had an impact on the design?

00:13:00Brodowsky: You know, one of the things I hate in academic buildings, or if you go to other campuses, is students stick things on walls and it ruins the paint, and it just, it looks tacky. So, there, if you go through, Craven Hall you'll see on the doors and along the walls, there are these metal strips that you could stick some-- they just-- and, that's, that was one of those things I requested, so that you could always put signs up and take them down without any tape. And, and you can remove things easily. And also you could--so that they're all tension bars. And that's one of the things that I have, that I requested because I just don't like scotch tape on paint. It's just hard to maintain. One of the things about this campus, and I've been on many campuses in my life, it's remarkably well maintained. It doesn't look tacky. It's not, it, it's aging quite well. it's immaculate. when I bring--I oftentimes walk around--I used to always work on Saturdays and Sundays until about eight, nine years ago. I said, I've been here long enough, I could take off the weekend. But I oftentimes find myself walking around campus on Saturday or Sunday. And I'd see people around my age with a teenager and, oh, these must be parents. And I give 'em a little tour, and they always remark how clean things are and how neat things, very, very tidy place. and it, it feels very safe, and, not, not--It doesn't feel like it's been overrun by lots of students. And the parents like that. I don't know if the students like that, but I just thought as an older person's, like, you have to have respect for the property. Keep it nice.

00:14:41Visintainer: Yeah. What, so what do you think has been the reasons why it's been maintained so well, or aged well?

00:14:48Brodowsky: I think maintenance is great on the campus. I think the staff keep beautifully. The gardening is incredible. The bougainvillea are there because of a man named Bernie Hinton, who is a founding faculty. And, I didn't always agree with him on things, but, when you drive up campus drive, you see those beautiful bougainvillea, it's makes a real, I mean--the buildings are large, beige, institutional buildings. There's not much you could do with them. They're not--it's just not, Louis Sullivan type of you, or, an Ivy League school campus. But the grounds are very well maintained. And, it just--it doesn't look--it looks new. It still looks new, and some would say a little bit sterile, but I like that. That's fine. It's always, in good shape.

00:15:43Visintainer: And the grounds do a lot, I think, to soften the buildings.

00:15:46Brodowsky: I mean, the setting is gorgeous. I mean, you can't--it's just kind of nestled into this hill. The logo is reflective of that. I actually introduced the logo. I helped design the logo. You know, of course we've cut down some of the hills behind the campus with our mining and quarry operation. But it's just really set nicely into the hillside. And then you look at it, this magnificent vista and, the library, this eleven sided building has great views.

00:16:16Visintainer: Yes.

00:16:17Brodowsky: Just really lovely.

00:16:18Visintainer: Yeah. could we talk about the process of designing the logo?

00:16:23Brodowsky: Yeah. We had the original logo, which is kind of the keystone that you'll see right across on Science Hall One that was the original logo with a globe in it. Because that's where the-- the founder circle is there. And it's really nice. But it's kind of, it'd be great--better in Pennsylvania with a keystone type of thing. And so we wanted something a little bit softer, a little bit more evocative of the landscape. And so I was on a committee with a men named Rick Moore, who was the Director of Marketing back then. We came up with a style manual and we came up with this, logo, which looks like, the two hills, with the, with the campus nestled on it. And then people--a lot of people didn't like it 'cause if you turned it on its side, it resembled Demi Moore on the cover of Vanity Fair, when she was pregnant, and they noticed that. But I remember, I was given the honor of unveiling this to the entire campus, and I said, and here it is. And I went like this (gestures). And, then I said--and I showed you on the--on the front of my personal action file. I said, you could use it on your own file for personal promotion. And you could use it like this and that. And it was--people still remember that day when I was--I introduced the logo. And, if you still listen to the answering--then you get the, recording--"The first of a new generation of California State Universities,"--that was me as well.

00:18:05Visintainer: Nice.

00:18:06Brodowsky: So I was on this marketing committee--little things like that,--I mean, I--I'll remember, doing that. And it's like, yeah, I did that.

00:18:15Visintainer: Yeah.

00:18:16Brodowsky: But it--and so that logo has lasted. I mean, I think it's, we probably unveiled it around 1998. Maybe it's in need of an update, but that's the one that we have.

00:18:30Visintainer: Okay. So, I'm--I wanna circle back a little bit to you saying like that there's kind of this intersection with like the University Marketing and marketing, and then you as a Marketing professor. So were you tapped oftentimes to.

00:18:44Brodowsky: Oftentimes, yes. Often there were other Marketing professors, but I was high profile and willing to do it. So I always came in--I always had something, to offer that way. And I came in for the local design. I came in for, the, I think the 10th year reunion branding that, a lot of the branding that we did on the campus I was involved in.

00:19:06Visintainer: Okay. And does that come back to--does that come back to kind of the campus being small? I hear from a lot of people. Oh, I wore many hats, so, I had to--

00:19:18Brodowsky: We did. and the thing is, I got--I talked to Alex Gonzalez once, this is how I became a consultant. I said, in this system, they're always hiring these special consultants with hundreds of thousands of dollars to do--I said, you got go down the elevator two floors. You got 10 people with PhDs in marketing. Why don't you ask us? You give me five grand, I'll do the whole thing for you. You know what I mean? And I mean, I thought, why do you have all this, all these PhDs sitting around and you're hiring these external people? This is a great way to get people to feel more ownership of the campus, because we're actually involved in building it. Well, in the early days on this campus, we had no choice. We had very few resources and, we all knew each other. We were all pretty much based in, if not Craven Hall, we had offices across the hall in, Science One. That was where the library, which was in Craven Hall. So, you couldn't help but bump into all of your colleagues. Now, there are people, I find out they've been here for, you've been here for years, I've never met you. That wouldn't have happened back then. I I saw in the archives, the original, campus directory and had like 15 phone numbers on it.

00:20:36Visintainer: Yeah.

00:20:37Brodowsky: That's how small it was. I mean, that was when we were over at Cal State Jeromes (nickname for Cal State San Marcos' initial location). I didn't come then, I came in (19)96. So we already had Craven Hall.

00:20:46Visintainer: Yeah. Okay. This kind of dovetails to a line of questioning I wanted to get into. And--I--so I read a--oh, I'm sorry. I don't have any water in there for you--but, yeah. so I read a University of Buffalo Alumni profile,

00:21:08Brodowsky: About where?

00:21:09Visintainer: About you. And you mentioned, that you found a much different academic experience here at CSUSM than you did at University of Buffalo or the University of Chicago. And I was just wondering if you could expand upon what the difference is were there.

00:21:20Brodowsky: When we become a faculty member, as a new assistant professor, anywhere. At a campus that's been around for a hundred, two hundred years--and it's pretty well all baked in. Most of the leadership on campus, most of the committee work, most of the--most of the decision making is done by crusty old faculty who've been there for a hundred years. And you're told, go into your office, publish six articles, get tenure, and keep your mouth shut, and teach your classes. And that's it. That was not viable at a place like this. I mean, there's all hands on deck. I mean, there was two marketing professors. So we had to develop all the curriculum. So it was all--I was on a committee with, David Borsky and Jackie Fishman and Michael McDuffie. We were doing all the academic policies on the campus and approving all the curriculum. I was the assistant professors. They were also, in the first couple of years we were all, young people. That kind of work is not done by junior people on campuses. This is done by the senior people. Finally, after like, I don't know, about 15 years, this Provost said, ah, now that we've got this critical mass, we don't have to count on all the assistant professors anymore. We can have all the associates and fulls (full professors) do this. Thank you very much. Now that I still get to do it because I have to protect these other people from doing it.

00:22:50Visintainer: Yes.

00:22:52Brodowsky: And it's like, I was always, pressed into service on things. And that was great for--as you could probably tell, I'm not a shy person. And I'm very--I jump in with both feet. I don't know if I would've been tolerated at other campuses with, ideas and wanting to be part of things. I think I would've been the wrong match. Because I can't keep my mouth shut.

00:23:19Visintainer: So it's a good, so it was a good environment in those days--

00:23:22Brodowsky: It was a great environment for me and when I hire people, it's like, it's still not that solidified. That there's still room to grow. And, if you think you're gonna come here and hide out for six years before we call on you to do things, you've got another thing coming. So I'm telling people in the second and third year, now it's time to step up to do this, and mentor them through the process. I'm a bad example 'cause I did too much early on. But I still think that that spirit of faculty leadership is still much a part of our DNA on this campus. Although, again, as we've gotten bigger over the years--the other thing is, there were people in those days who were the senior people when I came in, who were the-- had the Union and the this, and the faculty who were, they came here mid career, and they were probably at the time in their late thirties, early forties. And so they were the big movers and the shakers. And I thought, someday I'll be one of-- now I'm one of the old people on campus, one of the old timers. You know, how the hell did that happen? But it--and those people who I thought, how--what would the place be like when they're not here anymore? They've gone on, they've retired, they're fine, we're still fine. And it was a great lesson to me. I had given up my office to some-- a new faculty member. I went into the department chair's office and she found a personalized pen with somebody's name on it of a very dear friend of mine who had retired. She said, I don't know who this is. How do you not know who that is? She built this damn place. And I realized that someday that somebody's gonna find my name on something and they'll say, who was he? Even though it seems, I'm pretty high profile around here, but there will be people--there are people on this campus, most of the people on this campus who have never known the campus without Glen Brodowsky's name associated with it. But starting next fall, there'll be people in a post Glen Brodowsky era who won't know. And you know what? It's okay. It's okay. the campus is bigger than all of us.

00:25:43Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. That's a really interesting sentiment. And so you feel okay about moving on, then?

00:25:52Brodowsky: You have to be able to let go. One of the things I think I've been very successful in doing is hiring the next generation of faculty. I was hired by faculty who were here 30 years ago, 35 years ago. I've hired faculty that will be here 30 years from now. So I'm connected to the campus for 60 years. That's a pretty amazing thing.

00:26:18Visintainer: That is. What do you look for when you're thinking about, I don't wanna say succession planning, but when you're looking towards, bringing people in that will continue to build upon what you built?

00:26:31Brodowsky: Well, first of all, I'm in the process of-- I haven't even started working at Roosevelt (University) yet, but I'm already in a hiring process for new faculty members. Because they need them. Hiring faculty is the most important thing that you can do as a faculty member. It's the most important thing. Because, it's an awful lot of work. Takes an awful lot of time. And I'm not hiring somebody who I want here for two years. I want somebody for the next 20 years . So it's, will they be happy here? Will they find that this is the right speed for them? People who are looking for a tier one, I just wanna do my research, keep my head down and do my thing and be an independent contractor. They're not gonna be happy here. People who really wanna do a lot of development into programs and initiatives and be involved, they're gonna love it. There're faculty members, they got great records, but I didn't wanna hire them 'cause I knew they'd be miserable here. And who wants to, who wants a miserable colleague? So also, it's like adopting a pet, it's a lifetime commitment. How's I see it. It's not like, oh, I'm tired of it, I'm gonna just give 'em away. No, it's a lifetime commitment and faculty are like that. And so, I've seen people who have been not happy here and they've moved on, and I thought that was the right move for them. And other people who have left and come back. And so there's a kind of a type of person I look for who's just really kind of outgoing and roll up their sleeves. And I want to develop this program and that program and have ideas. Not like, okay, which textbook am I gonna use? And to give my marching orders, and I'll just do my thing. That's not the kind of person that I think of as Cal State San Marcos type.

00:28:29Visintainer: Yeah. That makes sense to me. Knowing the faculty that I've interacted with here, it's--I think it fits it pretty well.

00:28:37Brodowsky: There's someone who I'll point to who are young faculty (unintelligible). She's perfect for this place and this place is perfect for her, and she's going just be great. Because she's gonna be happy here after 20 years, you know? And, life is very short, so if you've gotta do a job, you might as well have one that you like.

00:28:57Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You mentioned that, you've kind of talked a lot about kind of this need almost to have folks that are, able to really dive into things. And, I'm putting words in your mouth a little bit, but be a little self-directed in the way that.

00:29:21Brodowsky: Yes. Yes. Yes

00:29:22Visintainer: Yeah. And so you've talked as well about--and kind of circling back to some things that I found about you, and doing research for this interview about--you've mentioned that when you came here, everything was a new initiative, and that you were involved in policy making. and so I was curious as to what some of these changes that you helped implement and what some of the policy making that you were involved with was?

00:29:44Brodowsky: My first one was a famous one. We had this system called Banner, which runs all the enrollment stuff. We had these courses and we had prerequisites. And there was no way every enforcing prerequisites. And so everything was an exception. And, I didn't take the prerequisite, I want to take the advanced course. And finally I said, can we find a way to code this in so that, they're prevented from enrolling if they don't have the prerequisite? And we found a way to do it. But I remember putting up a sign saying, as of next fall, all prerequisites will be enforced for all College of Business courses, there will be no exceptions made. Not even for you. And I got emails! I was Department Chair of the program for te-- you were preventing me from getting my education, and you're standing in my way and, you're disadvantaging me. And this is so unfair. And the bitching the and the moaning that went on for about a semester or two until the next crop of students came in. And of course you enforce prerequisite. That's how it's done here. And it became part of the culture. this is how it's done. And it was to the good-- to the--because it increases the likelihood that you'll actually pass the course if you've got the background. Yeah. So, it was, there's a lot of pushback. But then once things become normalized, then I, I learned that things will take a, a couple of cycles to kind of get the kinks out. But once it did, now we enforce prerequisites, period. I haven't had anyone in years ask me if they can come in without the prerequisites. 'cause it's just not, not even thinkable anymore.

00:31:37Visintainer: Yeah. So, the students obviously that had to adjust and some of them weren't happy about it. Did you run into any pushback from faculty or from advisors?

00:31:46Brodowsky: No, they were happy with that. I mean, this is a good thing. Just every policy that we put into place over the years and hundreds of them I've seen, on the statewide level too. One of the things that faculty do is before we pass anything, we try to say, well, what about this contingency? What about that contingency? And we try to bake it all in at once. And I finally said, you know what, it's not gonna be right the first time. We're gonna come up with a what if set. We're gonna get an exception in two years, and we're gonna have to revisit the policy. Because something's gonna come up that we didn't anticipate. And it always has happened. So one of the things that I've tried to implement over the years is whenever we have a policy, we put in a clause that says, and this policy will be reviewed in three years and updated. So we'll go back and say, is there anything that we missed? Because, who could have anticipated, the internet, who could have anticipated ChatGPT. What happens to things like who owns, intellectual property in the age of Chegg and Coursera. I mean, how do we, we, the law has not caught up to the technology. So you can't make, ironclad policies. They're going to change. And so why not just build that into the system to say it's time to look at the promotion and tenure policy.

00:33:13Visintainer: Yeah.

00:33:14Brodowsky: It's time to look into the--into this. And we just had a big discussion about the promotion and tenure policy this year, about people coming in with service credit and can you go out for early tenure, and how does that work? Well, we had to really think about it. And then we said, okay, we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to grandfather some people in and then move forward, because, if you're coming under one set of rules. Like, with the prerequisites, you think, well, I'm entitled to that. Well, yeah, but that's gonna, that's gonna end and we're gonna have to have some transition. You don't see that when you first start out, but you see that after 5, 10, 15, 20 years of, oh yeah, we're back to this conversation. We had this conversation 15 years ago and yeah, we knew this would come back to bite us in the ass. And sure enough, here it is, and so-- but faculty have this, well, what about this? Because faculty like to just talk about things. It's like, okay, it's not gonna be perfect. Let's send it up the food chain and see what we get and then we'll come back around the next time. Kinda like sending a paper up for review and said, when I first tried to get something published, I had no idea and I wanted it to be perfect. I said, no, you leave a little something for the reviewer to pick on this, then they'll have something to say. You know?

00:34:33Visintainer: Yeah. That's wise. And, I think it's smart, to revisit policy as well. I think that's a really good point. Just to circle back and give things in an occasional refresher and to build that process into the actual design of things.

00:34:48Brodowsky: That's normal. It's normal. And it takes some of the do or die attitude away if you don't get this right. You know? We'll, it's like raising kids. It's like, assume that you need a fund for the, education, the fund for the therapy. Because you could just screw it up. So be prepared.

00:35:10Visintainer: Yep. Well, thank you. I wanted to ask you as well, kind of, kind of along those early days, in 2005, you were involved in CSUSM's. Faculty and residence program.

00:35:24Brodowsky: Yeah.

00:35:25Visintainer: And so this is pretty wild. I had not encountered something exactly like this.

00:35:30Brodowsky: I lived on campus.

00:35:30Visintainer: Yes. That's what I wanted to ask you about. So could you talk about the program as a whole and then why faculty members lived on campus?

00:35:37Brodowsky: Yeah, they would have one university faculty living in the University Village apartments. There's an apartment there. And I had, at that time, I had an apartment, I had my condo here. And I also had met my partner. So we were down in San Diego. Then we had this apartment. I was here four or five nights a week living on campus with the students. My goal was to, have some programming for them, get to know them, maybe. I took a couple students to the symphony and to the theater. Just to kind of bring the quad down there and them up there. And then the second year, there was a wonderful woman who founded our nursing school, Judy Papenhausen.

00:36:20Visintainer: Okay

00:36:20Brodowsky: She-- have you ever heard of her?

00:36:21Visintainer: I haven't.

00:36:22Brodowsky: She retired from Cal State LA and in her seventies came down to Cal State San Marco to build the fa--the nursing school that she always dreamt of. And she was a kind of a tough ole gal, you know? Been around a long time. And she'd been living in a--she had like this camper that she was living in. I said, well, Judy, I said, there's a two bedroom from apartment over there. Why don't you come and shack up with me? So she moved in and we had this two bedroom apartment. And Karen Haynes was like, oh God, Glenn, and Judy are shacking up on campus. Out of wedlock and the whole thing. She's a lesbian, I'm a gay man. It was a big joke. But, and--it was an--it was a nice-- I lived on campus, you know . And, I don't think I did as much with the, as I thought I could have. I don't know. It just, I know one night that there was--they woke me up, but I came out to the hallway and my door closed behind me, and I--they put peanut butter all over the handle. I couldn't open the door. I came into the executive committee meetings. I said to Karen, I said, I don't know what's--they're putting peanut butter on my door and locking me out in the middle of the night. I said, when I went to school, we just did drugs and had sex. What's wrong with these kids? And she's like, oh God, I think people know we made a bad choice here. But it was, it was a fun thing to do and I was the second person to do it, and Scott Greenwood did it first, and I think he was probably more successful.

00:38:04Visintainer: Okay. So what was the, like, what was the goal of having the--what was the University's goal in having a professor live in the dorms?

00:38:09Brodowsky: I think just to kind of join the academic and the student affairs element of it and have, have an adult presence there.

00:38:17Visintainer: And do you think it was--so you said maybe, Scott was a little more successful than you were.

00:38:22Brodowsky: I think he was more involved in it. I think he was--had his wife there, and so they were like dorm parents and things like that. And, I did work a lot with the RAs now that was kind of nice. So I enjoyed it. I did it for about a year and a half, and I said, it's time for somebody else. And I think that--I don't know if anybody else did it after I did it, it was a short-lived program.

00:38:44Visintainer: Okay. Yeah. That's what I was gonna ask you was if it, if it continued on or not.

00:38:47Brodowsky: Yeah, no it didn't

00:38:48Visintainer: Okay. I wanted to ask you as well about the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association.

00:38:53Brodowsky: I got involved in that a couple years ago. And, the first thing I tried to do is I said, let's have, a dinner at my house. Our Friday night, which is Shabbat, I said, and I'll have a, a nice spread. Everybody will come and we'll have a social event. Well, it's too Jewish. What about people who aren't,-- it's the Jewish-- I said, it's Friday night at my house. We'll have candles and wine. That's it. People may be offended. I said, why? I mean this--the Jewish faculty here are split this. Some people are just very, very, culturally--or just they identify as Jewish, but want no part of the religion. And they're very progressive. And then there are people like me who are a little bit more conservative and are more religiously oriented. So we had our first--we raised a little bit of money over the years. We had to spend it. And I decided that I was gonna have an interfaith Passover Seder. And we did it last year. And all the faculty, they wanted this, they wanted that, anything but Jewish things, they just wanted all this political stuff. And I said, we're gonna do this. Had the meal, had the whole thing, and none of the faculty and staff showed up. This one was too busy. This one had foot surgery that--So they all want to have their input on it, but nobody wanted to do any of the work. So here I am schlepping food and cooking food and doing all this stuff. And I said, there doesn't really seem to be very much will for this to happen. but I stuck with it for two or three years and, it was the only event that we ever had was that Seder. And, the Provost was there and the Vice Presidents for all the other-- couple of faculty, a couple deans. I had seating for 50 people, 10 people showed up. We had a little circle. We had a very nice Seder. And then I was taking all this food to this homeless shelters around trying to get rid of this food, you know? At night, because, everybody was--everybody wanted to say what they wanted, but nobody was willing to do anything.

00:41:02Visintainer: Is there--so you-- there's about 50 Jewish faculty and staff on campus?

00:41:06Brodowsky: I don't even think there's that much. I think there's maybe 15. It's a very small number.

00:41:11Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah. So is there, is there, other than the Jewish Faculty and Staff Association are there like--.

00:41:17Brodowsky: Hillel is active now. And Chabad is active. Chabad is right here in San Marcos. And, Chabad are very, very conservative religious organization. But they are serving a purpose. The students are going there, they outreach, the students, students go there. And then they (say) we don't want Chabad here. They're too religious, but they're the ones who are serving the students. And I think they're doing a great job. And now Hillel has become much more active on campus, especially with the recent, protests. My husband as of today, is on the board of Hillel. So he's involved with that. It's a good organization. So there are not that many Jews on this campus. Maybe there's a hundred.

00:42:06Visintainer: What is the, what is the mission of Hillel? I'm not, familiar.

00:42:10Brodowsky: Hillel is a Jewish student organization.

00:42:13Visintainer: Oh, okay. It's a student organization. Okay very cool.

00:42:15Brodowsky: Student organization. It's, international. It's--most campuses have it. There's usually Hillel House on campus, and they have social, and they have--and also like at UCSD, they have a big facility. UCSD is a pretty rough place right now with the,with protests. And Jewish students don't feel very safe on campus. They're being harassed and so they hang out at the Hillel Center and we try to provide a safe space for them just to feel, that it's--that they're not, on display so much and they can just kind of breathe.

00:42:54Visintainer: Yeah. Those, I mean, student identity and inclusion spaces are really important for people to

00:42:59Brodowsky: They're important!

00:42:59Visintainer: Get a break from the larger--

00:43:00Brodowsky: Yes. Yes. I am-- I was never into having, these--we have separate graduations for different--I am--I'm much more integrated into everything. I'm much more like one graduation. We all wear the same stupid robe in the same hat. We're all the same. So I'm not really a big proponent of these, designated spaces, but I understand their importance. And Hillel's an international organization, and they have programming and, support services for Jewish students.

00:43:34Visintainer: Has there been any talk on campus here of having like a Jewish student center or anything like that?

00:43:40Brodowsky: No. It's too small. And the Hillel--Chabad house is right down the street and they open their home on Friday nights for everybody. And I think it's wonderful. They're the ones with the black hats and the wigs and the (unintelligible). You know, I went to my period of working with Chabad, I don't know if you were here-- Yes. With the shooting at Chabad.

00:43:59Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah.

00:44:01Brodowsky: I was on my way there that day.

00:44:03Visintainer: Oh my gosh!

00:44:03Brodowsky: When it happened. Because I was doing some work with them. So I know that rabbi quite well. Yeah. He turned out to be a convicted felon. He went to jail. And so, I went from, thinking, oh, my whole life that I was--and I was born in Crown Heights, which is where the headquarters is in Brooklyn with all the black hats. And I'm not one of those people. I always felt like, oh, I'll never be good enough to be one of those very pious Jews. And then I found out that, after that I said, well, maybe not quite up to stuff for me. Yeah. So, it was interesting.

00:44:39Visintainer: Thank you. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the consultant to the President that you did as well.

00:44:47Brodowsky: At that time, I was consulting on the logo and also the budget. There was a budget discussion and the President wanted to get the faculties feeling on budget issues. And so I did a number of focus groups with faculty about the process. This is with President Gonzalez. And basically what I found,--I said--was, that they wanted the Presidents to take a more active role. They were not trying to say don't do it. They said, we wanna see some leadership. So I sat in the President's office, says Alex they're were looking to you for leadership and direction. Don't fuck it up.

00:45:33Visintainer: So what was--so, Gonzalez was the second President after Stacey, then Karen Haynes comes in. What do you--were you here when Stacey was here?

00:45:43Brodowsky: Oh yes. I remember. I remember Dr. Stacy. He just passed away.

00:45:47Visintainer: Yes. Yeah. So what do you think like the differences between them were.

00:45:54Brodowsky: You know, very few people liked Alex. He was not light. And he was considered, the Chancellor's guy. He was, I remember, one of the things, he was, the interim President after Stacy, and then, Charlie Reed, who nobody liked except I liked him. Appointed him the President, and they were having the installation of the appointed no search President, which I dubbed the Coronation . So we were all going to the coronation. And that was the term that we used. That was my word 'cause I remembered that from Mr. Rogers, with the king and the queen. They had the world coronation. and I, and Alex was never quite comfortable in his own skin. He was, quite--lemme tell you a story about Alex. So, I saw him at a dinner at the Chancellor's office once. And, I said, Alex, thank you for everything he did on our campus. He left it in great shape. And Karen has taken it in a new direction. He said, yeah, but those two buildings that she opened up, I got the funding for. It's like-- I told Karen that. She said, yeah, that sounds like Alex. It's like he was not able to be gracious in terms of just, he was trying too hard.

00:47:20Brodowsky: And I looked-- worked very well with him, and I liked him, and I could sit in (unintelligible). They're looking for leadership. Don't fuck it up, Alex. I said that to him. Karen was--Karen was a force of nature. She was, a huge personality. Everything with Karen was somewhat formal. Even though she was very folksy. Everything was very scripted. Everything was very planned to the letter. And then I came along and, I remember, she always had these outfits that she like, remember those? Monochromatic, one color, the earrings the dress the purse. She used to change her purse every night to match her--And she had these sea foam green shoes on and this matching two piece outfit in the same color. And she was at McMahan house. I said, Karen, I said, I have the same pair of shoes that I've been looking for, the perfect outfit, and only you could find it. And she--she had a huge personality. She was very good with the donors. Some of them. She built a lot. She was the right woman at the right time. She was very senior. She was respected at the Chancellor's office. She had a lot of gravitas. And so I think for that huge growth spurt, she was the ideal person. And I liked working with her. I remember she had this thing over at the reading room here about health--health--allied health careers, and all these people from around the county talking about Allied Health at PalomarCollege. And, not medical school, not nursing, but other things. So she asked me to give a little talk. And I said, I think that you have to start really young with students. I thought first time I played a doctor was in elementary school, So she used to use me as kind of a, an MC type of, she would never appoint me to a real position. I was--but I was like, this spice that she had it sometimes if you use it the right way and sparingly, it was the right accent piece. And we--I understood my place. She surrounded herself with, a lot of good looking young gay men. She liked that. I wasn't good looking enough that that coterie of boys that she had around her. But she liked me and she was--I liked her. I think she was a great President for the time. And Ellen Neufeldt, Boy, talk about a baptism of fire. She comes here and then we had a crisis. We had a scandal, and then boom into pandemic mode. And yet she's really come through all that. She's a very strong President. Very different style than Ellen--than Karen. Much more folksy, much more down to earth in ways. And I've worked really well with her as well. Probably worked more closely with Ellen than I did with any of them 'cause I was chair of the Senate . And I always felt, to be very accessible and very open to ideas. And so, I know if other people have other things to say, but I have--I never felt like I--like I worked for the administration. There was a time when I didn't get the Brakebill Award (Distinguished Professor Award at CSUSM) once, and my colleague got it. And Rather than be bitter, I threw a party at my house for 60 people. And I called and baked, and I invited the President and the Provost at the time.

00:51:32Brodowsky: And they both came to my house. It was Karen Haynes and Emily Cutrer. And they said, this is the first time we've been invited to a faculty's home. I said, wow. That's telling. I have all these people here. I'm giving them a tour of my house, which is very dicey, you know. And, I was up in my bedroom. I said, I just wanna tell you, I don't work for you. You're not my boss. I work for the state of California and I serve the students and the taxpayers. You have a different job on that campus in that we serve different functions, but we all have the same boss. I don't work for you. And they said, we wish more faculty thought of it that way. So I never looked at them as like, that's my boss, you know? They're partners and they have a different role. They have a different perspective and a different viewpoint. Vantage point. And so I've worked with every President. I've no problem walking into the President's office or the dean's office, or the provost office is saying, we need to get this done, or this is pure bullshit, we need to fix this. And I was never afraid. And I don't know, people say, I'm privileged. I'm a white male. I could get away with that I could never do when I was a black woman. I don't, I don't know if that's a joke. I--it's just that's my style and it served me well here. And it--well, I got in trouble a couple times, but we won't talk about those But, I, think if you comment things from a--always assumed that everybody has good intentions, that even though I think what the President or the provost is doing is completely boneheaded that I--or the board of trustees god help us. They do crazy things. I think their intentions are good. Now. How we get it done may be impossible. But if you start with, I don't think that they're out to make it worse. And we all cop to that. We're all trying to make it better. We have different ideas about how to get there, but if we can always assume that we're all coming at it with positive intentions, I think that, that solves a lot of problems.

00:53:49Visintainer: Yeah. And it sounds like you've had good relationships with all of the Presidents that you worked with.

00:53:53Brodowsky: All of them, I've worked with I dunno, ten deans? I could rank order them if you want, but I won't. But there've been, good ones there have been bad ones, but there's been none that I couldn't work with them. I'm gonna be myself.

00:54:09Visintainer: Yeah.

00:54:12Brodowsky: I am.

00:54:13Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah.

00:54:15Brodowsky: So it's been--what a ride. I mean, who gets to build a place? Who gets to sit here and look at this? Oh, yeah. Well, we did that. I remember when that wasn't there. Or, the day we opened the library, my god, Karen Hayes was standing outside the library and Alex built the library. He got credit for that, and I said to Karen, I said, you know what? This is my baby. This is my life's work right here. Take care of it.

00:54:45Visintainer: Yeah. I don't know where to, where to go with that, but it's a wonderful--

00:55:01Brodowsky: That's how I feel. I mean, I'm leaving with--I couldn't have had a better career. Could not have had a better--couldn't have planned it better.

00:55:16Visintainer: So, a lot of this that you've talked about, a lot of this, kind of need to take initiative and need to, wear many hats, really has given you a skillset now where you can go, back to Chicago and, and be a dean there.

00:55:31Brodowsky: Yeah.

00:55:32Visintainer: And so in that way, it's been, it's been a really good environment for you to--

00:55:34Brodowsky: The President said that you built the campus, you know how to do that.

00:55:40Brodowsky: Yeah. I've had a nice research career. I've done my research, done a lot of research. I've taught a lot I've taught all over the world, you know? One of the things I say to new faculty is, you can do great research. You can do great teaching, you can do great service. You have to do all three. You don't have to do all three every day. Every week or even every semester. There are times when you should be really focusing on your research. You got a great project, you gotta get tenure, you gotta get this done. But then, once that's done, maybe you should be developing some new curriculum or being on a committee, or, chairing a--I was in--I was president of a professional organization for a couple of years. I mean, so you do different things, at different times. And so there's always something new about the career. You know, I spent 17 years traveling around the world teaching. 14 years on statewide academic center. I published 30 articles, and then I just published two books, but I didn't do everything at the same time. You know.

00:57:04Visintainer: Let's, talk about your guest teaching. So you've taught in Taiwan multiple times. You've taught in--

00:57:11Brodowsky: I'm supposed to be there now. I had to give it up.

00:57:13Visintainer: Oh, I'm sorry.

00:57:14Brodowsky: That's, that's my-- Taiwan, Copenhagen--

00:57:19Visintainer: Ecuador.

00:57:19Brodowsky: Ecuador to Shanghai. Taiwan started as a Fulbright. I looked at the Fulbright. I said, that one has my name on it. 'cause I had lived in Taiwan. I got it and I spent five months there, and I reconnected with some old friends of mine who I knew in the eighties (1980s).

00:57:39Visintainer: Nice.

00:57:39Brodowsky: Who now is like, this woman is like my sister. I've known her literally for 40 years. And we've never--we don't speak any English. It's all Chinese. And they liked me, and they started inviting me back every year. So I got invited back every year through this year. I was supposed to be there now teaching, but I said, I've gotta start a dean's position. I've gotta move. I've gotta finish-- I just couldn't do. And it, 17, 18 times doing the same thing. It's--I think at a certain point it's time to say it's been terrific, but they'll move on.

00:58:21Visintainer: Yeah.

00:58:23Brodowsky: But that was great. That was just like--kept up my Mandarin and I kept up my friendships and I loved Taiwan. I'm like a local there. And then somebody suggested I try Copenhagen Business School. So I applied. Got it. And there was like this group of us that would come in every summer for 10 years. We'd all fly in from all over the world. We'd hang out, rent apartments together, have parties go out to dinner. It was like summer camp. And, so I'd have everybody over and I'd cook and I'd bake and we'd travel on the weekends. It was great. And then right before COVID, I was getting a little bit tired of it. And then the guy who I used to call my summer husband, because we had--we shared an apartment. They didn't invite him back. At the last minute. They invited everybody else, and they didn't even send them a no thank you. They just didn't. And I thought that was kind of rotten. And I thought, God, if that happens to me, and it could, because I'd seen them do it. That would really ruin it for me. I would--I'd feel really awful if like, we were not invited back.

00:59:36Visintainer: Yeah.

00:59:36Brodowsky: And I was only going back for the 11th year because we had the apartment. And when he got canned, a lovely man, he's at University of Oregon, one of the campuses up near Redford. Southern Oregon. I said, I don't need the apartment. I don't need to go back. I've done it 10 times. There's nothing new here. I had a new book coming out. My parents were getting older, so I said, I'm not gonna go back. And they said, oh my God, how are we gonna replace you? We-- you were a brilliant teacher, and we would love to have, but we understand that you have older parents. So I got outta that one, and COVID happened, and the whole program went online, and it's never been the same since. And the esprit de corp, is not there. Everybody's kind of on their own way. I got out at the right time.

01:00:35Visintainer: Yeah.

01:00:35Brodowsky: Ecuador came to me, out of the blue. Would you like to teach a course in Ecuador in international marketing research? Sure. What the hell? I get an invitation like that. Why not?

01:00:50Visintainer: Yeah.

01:00:51Brodowsky: So I went and I drove this poor woman crazy. She ran the place and she told her I was crazy until I got there. And I had a very successful course. And I got invited back four more times over the years. But the first--you never know if you're gonna get invited back. So I flew my partner down. We went to the Galápagos, whatever money I made down there, it went--yeah. I'm in South America, Ecuador, I may never be here again. Let's blow the money on the Galápagos. Fabulous. Next year. I went to the jungle. I went to the Amazon, I went to Machu Picchu, loved it. I got another sabbatical, and I applied to be at the China European International Business School, CEIBS. Shanghai, four weeks, 25 grand. The most prestigious that I could get. I hated it. They hated me. The most lucrative one didn't last.

01:01:48Visintainer: So--

01:01:48Brodowsky: So you win some, you lose some--

01:01:50Visintainer: Yeah.

01:01:51Visintainer: But, you know, three out of four, where I was invited back multiple years and never was not invited back. I mean, it's--I was--and so that was about almost 20 years of my life where I was doing international work. Which is what I wanted to do. I had a beachhead in Asia. I had one in South America. I had one in Europe. Plus I was gonna Mexico. I was going to Germany, all that. But I mean, I was really an international lecturer all on my own. and it was great for about 17 years. And then COVID happened. I thought, I don't have to fly internationally. I did. It was great. And I made the most of it. And that was a big chapter of my life that's --it's kind of behind me. But boy, it was great. And sure. How could, how could you be somebody who teaches international marketing, cross-cultural marketing, doing it, sitting in California. So I, I did it. And I was able to do it and get away in the middle of the semester and schedule things and go away for four or five weeks at a time. They never missed me. I was, the department chair, was running meetings on Zoom at three o'clock in the morning, whatever I was doing, they let me get away with this. I can't believe it and yet, I never didn't do my job. I never--I was a reliable vote on everything and whatever. So, boy was I lucky.

01:03:31Visintainer: So what was the biggest--what was the biggest adjustment in teaching when you teach overseas as opposed to here.

01:03:44Brodowsky: I do it exactly the same way.

01:03:46Visintainer: Yeah.

01:03:46Brodowsky: I mean, even when I did it in Ecuador, I had a simultaneous translator who turned out to be a good buddy of mine. We've been friends for years now. we've worked on some projects together. So that was a little bit--learning to pace myself so that he was simultaneously translating. That was not that bad. I just never adjusted to the program. And in Shanghai, it just . They evaluated me after the third day, and it was not good. And it was too heterogeneous a course, class. It's just--at the time-- it just didn't work. I'm sorry, it didn't, but Taiwan was easy. Taiwan was, now during COVID, I taught in Taiwan, I had eight hour classes.

01:04:36Visintainer: Wow.

01:04:37Brodowsky: 00 PM in front of my computer till two, three o'clock in the morning, drinking coffee here in California. But I--I've been teaching international students since I was in college. I tell the same jokes. I'm used to a non-English speaking audience. I'm used to talking to people in a way that they can understand. I speak slowly. I give lots of examples. I've had the same response from students wherever I've gone.

01:05:19Visintainer: Could you talk about cross-cultural marketing and what--for a layman like myself, what is--

01:05:24Brodowsky: Interestingly enough, the first book I did was about cross-cultural international marketing, comparing Germany and France and France and China and all these kind of--how is marketing different? How do people consume products differently? How do they use products differently? A lot of my marketing was about time, how do people conceive of time differently in different places? And it is very different. And it feels different whether, in certain places things are very linear. You do A and then B and C and D and other places, everything's going on all at once. It doesn't make any sense. It could be very disconcerting. And so a lot of the earlier work was about comparing things on the national level . And then what I realized is that culture--countries are not cultures. Countries are multidimensional. So the second book was more about intercultural marketing, let's say taking Southern California and looking at dividing that up between the Latino culture. that if you're looking at the Asian culture in San Diego, it really is not Chinese. It's Vietnamese and Filipino. Okay. If you go to LA and San Francisco there is a Japanese culture there, you've got hip hop culture, you've got--Latino culture is not a monolith theater. You've got here. It's all Mexicans. In New York, it's Puerto Ricans and Ecuadorians and in Florida it's Cubans. They all speak Spanish, but music's different. The food's different. Some of the things are similar. I mean, it tends to be Catholic and family oriented and male dominated. There's certain kind of Latin things. But then even within that, you've got first generation Latinos who just came here, and their parents are different. They consume differently. They speak differently. They see the world differently. So the cross-cultural marketing, some of it I think of doing, in terms of, you could look at things in terms of cross-cultural differences, which are interesting, where you need to change the product or the price, or the color or whatever it is. And other things, you don't have to change everything. There's certain things that will go cross cultures. And so if you can find similarities, well, we could have one product for two groups of people. That saves us a lot of money. That's a lot more profitable. So I'm as interested in looking at cross national differences as I am looking at international differences. And even if you look at things like-- then you have segments that are--you find all over the world. So diaspora marketing. So you find Indian populations all over the world. You find, Hasidic Jews all over the world. They have more in common with one another than anyone who lives within this 400 mile radius of where they live. But that--there's similarities there. So how do we serve those communities that you--or you look at the, businessmen okay. Who are traveling through international airports. They're shopping in Sky Mall. They're buying stuff. They're buying Fendi and Courvoisier at the duty free. They're buying gifts for their wives when they're coming home. They're buying gifts for their mistresses when they're going. So there's a lot going on. And they all carry the same kind of briefcases and wear the same kind of shoes. And yet they may come from 10 different countries. And then the ultra wealthy. I mean, some of the wealthiest people in the world live in the poorest countries. They own them.

01:09:11Visintainer: Yeah.

01:09:13Brodowsky: Okay. So how--so that's another segment. So you can set with market based upon wealth, and that's--that goes across countries. And then there are also things that are very national. There are things that are very American that are very different in things that are very Canadian. Believe it or not, there are differences there. Don't ever tell 'em-- a Canadian, that they're just like Americans. We're just like--Americans are just like us. We're just nicer. You know, you have to look at it from their perspective. It is a different culture.

01:09:45Visintainer: Yeah.

01:09:45Brodowsky: It may be subtle. So, in my book, first book, I had a lot of the more classic, scholars from going back for the past 70 years, who've done work on international marketing, international negotiations. All these different models that we've used to try to understand these differences, none of are terribly perfect. None of 'em are perfect at all. And then the second one is says, what about the African American market? What about hiphop? Hiphop is now a multinational--it's not just an American thing, and it's not just a Black thing. It's kind of the music of the oppressed and the under classes. But then American Blacks' think it's a Black thing, but then you go around the coun--, the world. And it's like, no, there are people--there are more non-Black people who are fans of hip hop than there are Black people. But is it still a Black--isn't it our thing? When the music of the counterculture becomes the mainstream does it lose its authenticity? These are interesting questions. And that's some of the work that I do.

01:11:00Visintainer: Okay. That is really interesting. And you talked a lot about intercultural--I'm trying to wrap my head around it as I just got like a very beginner seminar in it. so you talk a lot about the kind of the intercultural, connections that you can make across cultures. I'm interested to know, I guess, how marketing--how you can look at marketing, and implement marketing across cultures when there are structures in place that maybe function very differently. Like we look at marketing, I assume, I'm making an assumption here. We look at marketing very differently than maybe somebody in, China does.

01:11:42Brodowsky: Absolutely. Well, they're not--Here's one of the things that's very interesting. I'll use Taiwan as an example. Taiwan makes great products. Fabulous products. Their phones are the best phones in the world. And yet they're the shittiest marketers on Earth. They don't know how to market because they view marketing and the Chinese, to an extent do as well, as expense.

01:12:07Visintainer: Okay.

01:12:07Brodowsky: Okay? Branding is not important. Branding is--it's--they--they're much more engineering driven. Okay.

01:12:16Whereas a company like Apple or Samsung, they make their products sexy. The HTC phone is, every bit as good, if not superior to the Samsung. But HTC is not a sexy brand. Samsung invested billions of dollars in marketing and in brand building. In making it something where I want a Samsung. The Chinese to their-- the Chinese and the Taiwanese, their mindset is a little different. It's like, we just wanna make it cheap and efficient. We wanna make our profit on having good quality and selling a lot. So they don't really have exclusive brands. Now, Huawei is doing something a little bit different. Huawei is, now you'll go around the world and you'll see Huawei in airports, and they're spending billions of dollars on marketing, and they're gonna become the next Samsung. But certainly the Japanese and the--and the Koreans are very similar 'cause they were much more export oriented. They really kind of understood that we have a small market at home and we have to make our products desirable in the West. China, not so much. They've got 1.3 billion people there. So just in terms of what they've-- Taiwanese just do not invest in marketing. They do not invest in branding. They don't care. They invest in technology. They are the world's best OEM. They will make the best components. You can't build a bicycle or a saxophone or a computer without a Taiwanese component.

01:13:59Visintainer: I'm sorry, what's an OEM? Just to clarify.

01:14:01Brodowsky: Original equipment manager. So they make the components.

01:14:04Visintainer: Okay.

01:14:05Brodowsky: They said, we wanna become an OBM, original brand manufacturer. Well fine invest in branding. Spend this much money on your branding as you're doing your R&D. Oh, we couldn't do that. We just want people to write--It's like. So there--and look, you need somebody who makes good components. So let's brand Taiwan as like Taiwan inside, like Intel inside.

01:14:32Visintainer: Yeah.

01:14:35Brodowsky: They're not willing to spend the money.

01:14:37Visintainer: So how, as-- I mean as a marketer-

01:14:38Brodowsky: Frustrating

01:14:39Visintainer: how do you market the importance of marketing to people that don't--

01:14:45Brodowsky: Very slowly.

01:14:46Visintainer: Yeah.

01:14:49Brodowsky: But yeah. And look, Levi's. McDonald's. Coca-Cola. IBM, it's all branding. The products are not--I mean, nobody thinks that McDonald's is good.

01:15:01Visintainer: Yep. It's not a good product. Marlboro, if you, if you use it correctly, you will die.

01:15:08Visintainer: Yeah.

01:15:08Brodowsky: But my God, the Marlboro man, everyone wants to be that rugged individual.

01:15:16Visintainer: Yeah.

01:15:17Brodowsky: That's what they want to be.

01:15:21Visintainer: Yep. That's very-- that's very interesting. So, and I do wanna be mindful of your time. How are you on time?

01:15:30Brodowsky: Fine. I'm just--I'm realizing that hopefully I didn't leave my wallet where I think it's.

01:15:37Visintainer: Okay. let me ask you a little bit about marketing. About-- I'm gonna ask you to forecast a little bit. Obviously we're seeing huge technological changes and we really have been since the advent of the internet. But--so I guess my first question is, how has marketing changed since, the advent of the Internet?

01:15:58Brodowsky: It's completely data driven. Completely. There (is) more data than ever there's no shortage of data. We need people who could interpret data and extract information. What does it mean? What does it tell us? So there'll be jobs and data analysis. Students don't have a good grasp on that. Those who can take information and say, well, what this means is this. Not, here's this number. 30% do this, 20% do-- That's nice. But what could we say with that? What can we conclude. Those skills are, are lacking. I think, also the old kind of-- the company tells you what it wants to tell you about its products is gone. It--it's all C to C it's all consumer to consumer. It's all word of mouth. I mean, they always said word of mouth is the strongest marketing before the internet. Now it's like on steroids, because, you're gonna go to Yelp, you're gonna go to TripAdvisor. You wanna see what other travelers say, okay. You know, the commercial doesn't tell you. It's the reviews that tell you that's the first thing that you go to. So, there was a wonderful thing I heard from a person from Marriott who was sitting with me through a number of musicals. You're no longer a brand manager. You're a brand steward. You were--and you have to work with consumers. And you have to understand your customers so that they become your ambassadors. You have to create, evangelists for your brand. Who will tell their friends and rave about it. 'cause they'll also complain about it a lot more. So--and they'll destroy you. So, it's not just how do we craft a message? How do we convince people something that's-- it's not that. It's how do we get people excited about what we're doing so that they'll tell everybody else? So I think the two biggest trends are data. Data, and data and so you got Teradata down, (and) down the road, so-- and what Teradata does is it takes all these data from what you've done. So, you know how, you look at the upgrade list when you're trying to get onto the flight? It's like--and there's like--so like six seats in first class. And I'm always the seventh person so I never get the seat. Sometimes I do, but how do they figure out who gets the seat?

01:18:34Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah.

01:18:36Brodowsky: You know, but there's a lot of information. How many miles do you have? How often do you fly? How many upgrades? There's a whole thing of algorithms that, that they take these enormous amounts of data that we hit--that we have about every customer. And then how do we look at it so that we could make decisions to say, well, it's not rewarding you as a customer, but rewarding the right customer. 'cause that's the customer that's going to become the sustainable customer. You know, customers are an investment.

01:19:12Visintainer: Interesting.

01:19:12Brodowsky: You wanna reward those that are gonna--everybody likes to get something for free, but which one gets it for free? What benefits the company the most? Also, and that could also be where's the goodwill? I mean, how do we, how are we good corporate citizens? You can't get away with the things you've got whether 50 years ago 'cause everybody's gonna read about you. So, do we sponsor,--if we're gonna support Donald Trump, what's that gonna cost us in terms of some of our customers? So we--if we do support Donald Trump with our marketing, is it gonna get us more customers? I talk about this a lot in classes talking about politics. Please it's the biggest marketing campaign every four years as a Presidential election. Why do you vote for this guy?

01:20:01Visintainer: Yeah.

01:20:02Brodowsky: And frankly, very few people are indifferent to Donald Trump. They either absolutely love him and think he's the second coming, or they think he's the devil incarnate. There's not anybody that goes, well, if we get him, it doesn't matter.

01:20:18Visintainer: Yeah.

01:20:19Brodowsky: Nobody feels that strongly about Biden. I don't get the, we gotta get this guy. He's so great.

01:20:29Visintainer: So from a marketing perspective, how do you, how do you market him.?

01:20:32Brodowsky: Donald Trump is a brilliant marketer. He's a brilliant marketer. He knows how to resonate with his audience to say, you have this problem. I'm gonna come in and I'm gonna fix it. I'm going to kick ass and take names. Well, some people will just say, yes, you're right. You shall lead us. And other people are shivering in their boots. But nobody's indifferent.

01:21:02Visintainer: Yeah. And then you have somebody, a candidate like Biden. How does--how do you market Biden?

01:21:09Brodowsky: Well, I mean, he was marketed as kind of the anti-Trump, you know? He was calmer. He was supposed to just keep things even keeled. If it's too chaotic, here's an alternative. I'll just keep (inaudible).

01:21:24Visintainer: Yeah. So it kind of, it kind of comes back to Trump.

01:21:28Brodowsky: Yeah. Exactly. But it-- you can't not talk about. I always turn on CNN, which is an anti-Trump, station, and I always count how many seconds go by before I heard the name Trump. And it's usually about six. 24 hours a day. You can't buy coverage like that.

01:21:49Visintainer: Yeah. Yeah.

01:21:51Brodowsky: Yeah.

01:21:52Visintainer: Yep. I wanted to ask you a little bit about teaching and, just kind of the--kind of wrapping up--

01:22:02Brodowsky: I'm a frustrated actor, I was not good enough to be a--I love to perform. I like to be in front of a group. I like to be the center of attention. I feel like Phil Donahue or (inaudible) running around a room and getting everybody excited and talking and participating. It's the most fun I can have with all my clothes on. on the worst days of my life in my career, and those are the best teaching days. 'cause when something's really bothering me and I'm all pent up and I can walk into a room and become this other character. And everything outside melts away. And Dr. B is this much nicer version of me. Based upon my life. Not really, but, an exaggerated version of me.

01:22:58Visintainer: How is it an exaggerated version or a nicer version of you?

01:23:02Brodowsky: Well, I can't say the F word as much. I don't know. It's just, I'm having fun. I'm not stuck in my own, what's-- my best days are--I've had a bad customer experience. Another comment--I would tell you everything went wrong in the store. And related to you--in real life. I just--I remember once, this is after my partner died, the first year I was teaching at UC Riverside, I taught there for a couple years as an adjunct. And I walked down into this auditorium and I'm walking down and my face is long and the weight of the world on my shoulder. I was widowed. And I turned around to the classroom and it was different. It all went away. And I was fully present in this moment. Talking about interesting stuff.

01:24:14Visintainer: Yeah.

01:24:15Brodowsky: Asking them interesting questions, getting them to talk, getting them to think. Yeah. Why did they package it that way? Why did they price it that way? Why do they have that in the commercial? What are they trying to say? What's going on? What's the message? One thing, the fun thing about teaching marketing is, not everyone's gonna be an accountant. Not everybody's well you know-- not every-you can take an English class, you might not be an ex(pert), you are always gonna be a customer. You're always gonna be involved in marketing transactions. So even if you never become a marketer, okay, you are being marketed to 24 hours a day. Wouldn't you like to be a more active participant in that? Wouldn't you like to know what's going on?

01:25:07Visintainer: Yeah.

01:25:08Brodowsky: I would.

01:25:11Visintainer: So you have a built-in, level of engagement then?

01:25:15Brodowsky: Yes. Yes. I mean, I talk about this, I talk about toilet paper, I talk about tampons, I talk about, I talk about cars. I talk about, gas mileage and going to Costco. I had a group of students--I got to teach this group of Italian students this past semester and they'd never been to a Costco. And it was a three hour class. And I showed a video about distribution, and we talked about pizza. I said, well, it's 6:30. I got an idea. Let's take a field trip. And we all went to Costco. It's like 10 students, five Americans, five Italians. And we went around Costco and we looked at everything and I said, let's try the pizza. 'cause they're all Italians. And we got the pizza. We got them to rate pizza. But it's like, this is how--this is where people shop in America. They shop in one of 3, 4 places. They either go to Target, Walmart, Costco, or Amazon. I'd say that covers about 80% of where people shop.

01:26:17Visintainer: Yeah.

01:26:20Brodowsky: And they go, this is different. The places the size of an air airport hangar, you don't have that in Italy.

01:26:32Visintainer: How has your-- has your teaching evolved over time? Have you changed your approaches or--?

01:26:38Brodowsky: I use a lot more simulations. A lot more technology. I'm more comfortable letting them work in groups, especially with the long classes in Taiwan, it's eight hours. So I'll give a two hour lecture in the morning, and we'll take a break, and then maybe we will break up and do a case study. And I'll walk around to different groups, and then we'll go to lunch and they'll come back and they'll work on the simulation. So it doesn't all have to be about me. I used to think I was-- I had to be on, if it was the 90 minute class, I had to be actively engaged at teaching. And, I think I've gotten more comfortable with letting them learn. You know.

01:27:27Visintainer: Yeah. Kind of talking about students and letting them learn. Have you seen our student body evolve over time?

01:27:38Brodowsky: I think post COVID, there's been some--there's been some real loss of social skills, real loss of engagement. I see that also among the faculty, people not knowing how to behave. People don't know how to engage with people anymore. I mean, I think COVID was a real eyeopener about how fragile our systems, our social systems or our educational systems, our financial systems, our logistics systems, everything broke down.

01:28:09Visintainer: Things are still breaking down.

01:28:11Brodowsky: They are still not back where they were. No, they're not. When you turn off a faucet and it doesn't just come back on when you open the spigot. So, yeah. There's a lack of engagement.

01:28:29Visintainer: Yep. I just wanted to ask you about your--just to wrap up, I wanted to ask you about faculty Senate, and--so you're chair.

01:28:41Brodowsky: Yes, I loved it. I was afraid. I thought, I've been asked to do it many times throughout my career, and I said, no 'cause I prefer to be on the committee, not in charge of the committee. Because he could be speak more freely, but--and I wasn't planning to do it. And I ran a couple years ago and I lost. I said, well, the hell with it. And then I was asked to do it, and I said, okay, I'll give it a shot. I promised the provost that if I got through an entire year of running the Senate with no drama in meetings, no fighting, no screaming, no-- that I got a steak dinner. And it was pretty rough year. Lots of stuff going on with GE and things like that. And we got through it and it worked. So I'm hoping I'll get a steak before I leave. I loved it. I really loved it. I also realized that, I had a really good team in place who were like, the detail people. I'm not the detail person, so I was like, I don't have to read everything. They're gonna read it and I'll find the mistakes. And I just--my job was just to--it's just to be the master of ceremonies and keep things moving. I loved it. I thought it was the easiest year of my career.

01:30:01Visintainer: Nice.

01:30:01Brodowsky: And people told me, oh, it's awful. It's miserable. And why would you do this to yourself and they, you know, they said why would you do this to, it's a miserable, thankless position. And I loved it. And the people who I thought would be difficult, I found a way to work with them.

01:30:16Visintainer: Yeah. That's good. What was the maybe the biggest accomplishment of Faculty Senate this year?

01:30:21Brodowsky: Getting us organized to deal with the changes to, GE.

01:30:31Visintainer: They're gonna be big.

01:30:32Brodowsky: Like, and I've been (inaudible) saying this for two years and kicked and screamed--it's going to happen. It's going to happen. I know how things are. And then, no, we could push back and I say, if we had taken the time, instead of pushing back and getting organized, things would be a lot easier. But at least I got everybody's seizures on this committee for the summer. They're meeting, I was able to hand it off, to be able to leave. I mean, and I let the provost knowing and the President('s) office knew before the announcement, at least a month before. And I was determined to not leave anything half done. So getting things sewn up or ready to be passed on, I think goes back to, I could leave the College of Business 'cause I could point to a dozen faculty members that I hired that're gonna be much better at doing it than I am now, or have been. That I didn't leave a mess for anybody. I left it how I found it, but better.

01:31:44Visintainer: That's good.

01:31:45Brodowsky: And that's--people are not gonna open drawers and say, oh, he left this mess. Oh my God, what I do, he's gone. You have to plan the succession.

01:31:56Visintainer: Yeah.

01:31:57Brodowsky: And so there's a lot of talent around here.

01:31:58Visintainer: And you leave next week?

01:32:05Brodowsky: Mm-hmm.

01:32:05Visintainer: Well, Congratulations on your new position.

01:32:06Brodowsky: And may God have mercy on my soul.

01:32:10Visintainer: What are you looking forward to about it?

01:32:14Brodowsky: Being in Chicago.

01:32:15Visintainer: Yeah.

01:32:17Brodowsky: And walking to work.

01:32:20Visintainer: Well all right. Is there anything else that I should have asked you that I didn't?

01:32:23Brodowsky: No.

01:32:24Visintainer: Alright. Well thank you Dr. Brodowsky. I appreciate it.

01:32:27Brodowsky: My name is Glen.

01:32:28Visintainer: Thank you Glen. I appreciate you spending time with us today.