Doan, Dennis "Dizzy". Interview March 6, 2023.

00:00:00JENNIFER HO: All right. (Claps.) Today is March 6th, 2023. This is Jennifer Ho, and I’m interviewing Dennis “Dizzy” Đoàn (Dennis “Dizzy” Doan) for the Children of Refugees, the Vietnamese American Oral History Project. Thanks for being with me today, Dennis. How are you doing? (both laugh) All right. Let’s just start. (both laugh) Tell me when and where you were born.

00:00:27DOAN: I was born in 1990, in Saginaw, Michigan.

00:00:31HO: And what brought your family to Michigan?

00:00:33DOAN: Um, my uncle at the time, my uncle was just coming over here from Việt Nam (Vietnam). He had worked for Vietnamese Intelligence in the past. He was my dad’s oldest brother. And I guess my family finally made the leap. Because they stayed there during the aftermath of the war, which it was really surprising for me to learn that, because a lot of people left during the war, immediately after. But my grandma was a Vietnam War nurse. So, my dad’s whole family from Đà Nẵng (Da Nang) eventually went to Sài Gòn (Saigon) to pretty much be close to my mom’s family because my mom is from Saigon. So, I guess things were more peaceful there. Because they were pretty much getting hunted up there in Da Nang. My dad’s dad was a police captain for the South, who often went to the North to infiltrate their military. So, he was in prison pretty much most of his life. So, my dad was raised by his stepdad. So, it’s a crazy family timeline because my dad has like four stepdads and he’s the middle child. So, all his siblings after, they’re the only ones who have the same dad, who I grew up thinking was my paternal grandfather. But I found out he wasn’t later. So—

00:01:55HO: When did you find out?

00:01:57DOAN: I—Well, I grew up knowing I had a ông ngoại (ong ngoai, maternal grandfather) and I had two ông nộis (ong noi, paternal grandfathers, Vietlish), but I didn’t know why, you know what I mean? There was ong noi Chan (note: spelling is unknown) , which was—We went to go see him like once in a blue moon. He lived in Orange County. But my regular ong noi, who I refer to as he basically raised me, you know, and that was my dad’s stepdad. But I didn’t know that until later on. And I was like “Okay. So, that’s why I have two grandpas on dad’s side.” Because, you know, my dad was pretty much estranged from his real father. But we still, you know, we still went to go see him and visit and see if he was okay and what not. Because he came over here later, like ’94, ’95 or something. Yeah.

00:02:40HO: Okay. How did you find out about your two ong nois?

00:02:46DOAN: Well, just eavesdropping— (laughs)

00:02:47HO: Oh really?

00:02:48DOAN: —on the family. No, because my brother—I mean, my brother was there for all that. He’s twelve years older than me. So, he was twelve when they came here to America. So, listening to him talk to my mom, here and there, I finally kind of put two and two together. As I grew up, I understood more of like the dynamic of, you know, marriage and things like that. Divorce, separation. Yeah.

00:03:13HO: Yeah. Okay. Thank you. So, tell me about your family and the people who raised you.

00:03:20DOAN: My parents—Well, my brother actually was the one who pretty much raised me. Because my parents were always working. When they first came here, my mom worked as a seamstress for a little bit. And then went on to do nails like every other Vietnamese mom. My dad was going to school for a little bit to learn enough English just to get around, and then from there he went on to work as, it was like doing assembly line stuff for a hardware company, which he’s still there today. Yeah. But they were gone usually from eight to eight every day. So, my brother would be back and forth. Sometimes, he would have to take me to work with him. Sometimes, he’d take me to school with him. But, yeah, it was pretty much me and him for most of my life until he left when I was about twelve years old to go to medical school.

00:04:13HO: Wow. Okay. So, was this in Michigan? Or in San Diego?

00:04:17DOAN: No, it was in San Diego. Yeah, we came to San Diego in, I think, like 1991, right after I was born.

00:04:24HO: Oh. Okay. So, you were just a baby.

00:04:26DOAN: Yeah, because my grandma had a sister in here, and then she had family in Orange County as well. So, they decided to come here because the climate was a lot more similar to Vietnam, and, you know, Michigan’s crazy. It has crazy weather. So, yeah. So, that’s why they over here and settled here.

00:04:45HO: Okay. Have you been to Michigan?

00:04:48DOAN: Nope. (chuckles)

00:04:49HO: Okay. Okay. I was going to ask you how you think you would have been different if you were raised there.

00:04:53DOAN: Well, I hear stories. I mean, my brother and my cousin, they were the only minorities at their whole school.

00:04:59HO: Yeah.

00:05:00DOAN: Yeah. (chuckles)

00:05:01HO: Like the only minorities, period.

00:05:02DOAN: Period. Yeah.

00:05:03HO: Oh, wow! Okay. Was it like—

00:05:04DOAN: Everyone else was white. Yeah, and some Blacks, some Black people. But that’s it.

00:05:08HO: Okay. Was it like a suburb, suburban area?

00:05:11DOAN: I don’t know. I don’t know.

00:05:12HO: Okay. You were a baby, so—

00:05:13DOAN: Yeah. Yeah.

00:05:15HO: —okay. Okay. Cool. So, you were raised primarily by your brother because your parents were at work a lot.

00:05:23DOAN: Yes.

00:05:25HO: Can you tell me more about your childhood? Like what did you do for fun? What did you eat? Who prepared your meals? Who were your friends? Like what comes to mind when you think about your childhood?

00:05:35DOAN: Um, my childhood was, I think it was good. Because I was surrounded by a lot of family, in regards to - I had a lot of cousins that came here from Vietnam. They ended up living with us for a while. And I had cousins from France that would come every summer and hang out. It was very diversified, you know. My friends—I had Mexican friends, Black friends, white friends, whatever. Because when you’re young, you don’t really think about, you know, differentiation in that regard, you know. Um, but pretty much I was either playing outside or I was in the house building something with cardboard boxes, you know. We were poor so we didn’t have too much. I guess at the time I didn’t realize how poor we were. But you don’t really have anything to compare that to. So, we appreciate it regardless, you know. Because they would take me to—After I’d get a shot, my dad would take me to go to like the 99-cent store or something, to get a toy, and I’d be like “Oh, wow!” But it was cool. I feel like back then, I guess society looked out for each other a lot more. Everyone in my apartment complex kind of looked after each other’s kids. You know, when all the kids were playing outside, there was always a parent that was kind of monitoring them. Whenever I didn’t have a key to get into the house, I would just go downstairs to the manager’s office, and they would just come up and open it for me. We could leave our doors unlocked. It was more of a community. Nowadays, everyone’s kind of scared of everything and, you know, parents are overprotective because, you know, everything going on in the world. So, yeah. Things were a lot different, I guess you could say.

00:07:14HO: Okay. I want to hear more about your apartment complex. Like that’s a really—It sounds like a really tight-knit community. So, how did you—Were they other Vietnamese people? Or—

00:07:25DOAN: No. It was everybody. I mean, the only thing everyone had in common was we were all pretty—on Section 8. Pretty much, you know. So, we looked out for each other. Yeah, so a little bit of everybody. People would—I had kids come to my house and I’d go to their house. There was no like judgment, nothing within like our little community, you know. It’s like a big melting pot, pretty much.

00:07:48HO: That’s nice.

00:07:49DOAN: Yeah. So, what else? I was going to talk about something else. (chuckles)

00:07:56HO: Um, your neighbors, community, looking out for each other.

00:07:59DOAN: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, we used to play outside. I’d play football and whatnot. My brother would only let me play outside for one hour a day. So, I had to, you know, make the best of it. (chuckles)

00:08:11HO: Why did he only let you play outside for an hour?

00:08:13DOAN: Well, he was a little more strict than my parents even were. Because they wanted me to focus on my homework, studying. I didn’t get to watch TV for more than an hour a day. And I didn’t get to play outside for more than one hour a day. Yeah. (laughs)

00:08:27HO: Wow. Okay.

00:08:29DOAN: Yep. It was pretty wild, like the way that he basically molded me. I mean, it’s good. Looking back on it, it helped me develop into who I am discipline-wise. At the time, you know, I hated it. So—

00:08:46HO: Yeah. Of course.

00:08:47DOAN: Yeah. But I’d always try to get around it. You remember how the TVs back then were like glass?

00:08:52HO: Yeah.

00:08:53DOAN: With a giant tube? So, whenever he was gone, I’d always try to sneak in like some cartoons or something, and he’d always come home and he’d be like, “Oh, you were watching TV, huh?” And I’d be like, “No.” But, you know, there’s like static on there. The whole thing is hot.

00:09:06HO: It’s warm. Mm-hmm.

00:09:07DOAN: But when you’re little, you don’t think about that. So, he knows. I was like, “Man, this guy knows everything.” So, when I played outside too, if I’m sweating or whatever, he’ll know. But yeah. He was just—he wanted me on the right path, I guess you could say. He didn’t want me to get the wrong influences around me. Yeah.

00:09:28HO: So, it sounds like your brother might have had some of that kind of fear, I guess you could say, that we have today as parents.

00:09:35DOAN: Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s because he had two worlds to compare to each other, like his life in Vietnam versus life here. And he’s seen like the worst in humanity in both places, you know? So, he just wanted to protect me from that. He used to teach Kung Fu, and Chinese Lion Dancing at the library, because he worked there, and he also ran that program for them. And he would never allow any of his students to cuss around me. And they couldn’t talk about like bad things, all those types. So, he’s very, very protective, you know.

00:10:12HO: Wow!

00:10:13DOAN: Yeah.

00:10:16HO: Um, and what neighborhood did you grow up in, in San Diego?

00:10:19DOAN: I grew up in Linda Vista.

00:10:20HO: In Linda Vista. Okay.

00:10:20DOAN: So, at the time, in the early ‘90s, that’s where like all the Vietnamese people were. Pretty much. It was like its own little community. There’s the Vietnamese market there. The first Vietnamese restaurants were there. There and City Heights were kind of blooming at the same time. And it’s only later that it started to work its way up to Mira Mesa. Yeah.

00:10:45HO: Okay. So, tell me like what are some of the places you would go in Linda Vista? Like what restaurants would you go to or what little shops or like playgrounds?

00:10:58DOAN: There’s Phở Hòa (Pho Hoa). We used to go there a lot. I used to go to the thrift store a lot, which is not there anymore.

00:11:05HO: Is the phở (pho) place there still?

00:11:07DOAN: The pho place is still there. My dad’s friend actually owns it now .

00:11:10HO: Okay. So, a different ownership.

00:11:11DOAN: Yeah. Yeah. There’s a place called Phở Hòa Hiểp (Pho Hoa Hiep). That’s still there. Viễn Đông Supermarket (Vien Dong Supermarket), which is now Thuận Phát Supermarket (Thuan Phat Supermarket) is there. Yeah. And then Rite-Aid used to be Thrifty.

00:11:24HO: Right!

00:11:25DOAN: And there’s a bunch of little Vietnamese gift shops there, to buy like cheap clothes and whatnot. But we were at the thrift store a lot. I remember that.

00:11:34HO: Okay. Why was that?

00:11:36DOAN: That’s where we got all the clothes and everything. Yep.

00:11:39HO: Okay. The thrift store’s not there anymore, you said.

00:11:40DOAN: No. It’s not. It’s—I don’t know what it is now, actually. There’s a supermarket in front of it, and then I think it’s like some type of freaking—they’re turning it into some type of plaza or something. It was a big, big thrift store.

00:11:54HO: Is it in the same shopping center as the Vien Dong was?

00:11:57DOAN: No. It’s like kind of across the street.

00:12:00HO: Okay.

00:12:01DOAN: On the side. I know they’re building apartments over there now, too. They’re gentrifying the whole area because it’s close to USD (University of San Diego) .

00:12:08HO: Okay.

00:12:09DOAN: So, you know, prices are skyrocketing. It used to be like the ghetto. Now, there’s homes that are selling for 1.2 mill.

00:12:15HO: Wow. In Linda Vista. That’s hard to imagine. And does your dad still live there?

00:12:22DOAN: No, he lives in Mira Mesa now.

00:12:24HO: Okay.

00:12:25DOAN: Yeah. Well, when I was—Until the age of four, I was growing up in like the really bad side of Linda Vista. But my mom got so tired of it. I remember she and I ended up walking around the whole neighborhood and then we walked like an hour, forty-five minutes to an hour, towards the other direction, like the beginning of Linda Vista on the other end. And she finally found an apartment complex that she thought was okay. And that’s the one that I’m referring to when I talk about the community and everything.

00:12:58HO: Okay. Is that apartment building still there?

00:13:02DOAN: Yeah. It’s still there. It’s called Mesa Vista.

00:13:03HO: Mesa Vista.

00:13:05DOAN: Yeah.

00:13:06HO: Okay. Do you know if any of your old neighbors still live there?

00:13:09DOAN: Mmm, one of them do, that I know of. She’s my client, too, so—

00:13:13HO: Oh, okay.

00:13:14DOAN: Yeah. (chuckles)

00:13:15HO: Is that how she found you? Or was it a coincidence?

00:13:17DOAN: So, I lived there for a while. I lived there until I was maybe, I think, seventeen, seventeen or eighteen. And I moved. I moved to Mira Mesa, and then I eventually came back again. So, that’s when I met that neighbor. Because my car actually got hit behind her house, or her apartment. So, when my car got hit, she contacted one of my friends that lived in the apartment. And they contacted me. And then that whole thing got resolved. But that’s how I met her. And, you know, it’s been cool since. She’s been my client ever since.

00:13:53HO: Okay. Good.

00:13:55DOAN: Yeah. Everything kind of connects. It’s weird.

00:13:57HO: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve noticed that too. Okay. And where did you go to high school?

00:14:04DOAN: Kearny High School.

00:14:05HO: Okay. Any good memories there? Or any memories at all? Did you do okay?

00:14:11DOAN: I wasn’t supposed to go there. My brother was actually really adamant on me going to Scripps.

00:14:17HO: Scripps?

00:14:18DOAN: Ranch. Scripps Ranch.

00:14:19HO: Oh. Okay.

00:14:20DOAN: Yeah. Because he went there. He was the first full graduating class of Scripps Ranch. Back then, they used to, you know, bus them from Linda Vista up to there. Because they had like their magnet program and all that. But I don’t know. I just—It wasn’t for me. Freshmen year of—huh?

00:14:37HO: What wasn’t for you?

00:14:38DOAN: Just like traveling back and forth. You know, yeah. And I was already—I felt like I was distancing myself from my neighborhood when I moved to the other side of Linda Vista, you know? If I was to go to school in a totally different area, then it would be worse. It was kind of a weird dynamic. Because you had the really hood-hood kids on one side and, you know, you had to earn your respect from those kids if you were like anywhere else in the area. You know what I mean?

00:15:24HO: So, you were one of those hood-hood kids and then you left.

00:15:27DOAN: Yes. Yes.

00:15:28HO: Okay. So, did people look at you differently after you left?

00:15:30DOAN: Yes. So, when I went to middle school, I had to go back to that neighborhood. Yeah. Because it was on the other side, by Vien Dong and stuff.

00:15:39HO: Okay. What’s the name of that school?

00:15:41DOAN: Montgomery Middle School. Mm-hmm. So, I had to—you know, I would to go to my cousin’s house who lived nearby in the morning. I would walk to school, and then after school, I walked to my cousin’s and then I’d get picked up and go home. Yeah. Because if I was to walk home, it’d take me an hour. Right? So, I’d have to wait for my dad to pick me up. But yeah. It was different. Yeah. I kept going back and forth, mentally, in terms of how, like survival mode versus non-survival mode. Because when I went to school in the nice area, the elementary school there, everything was great. There was a mixture of kids and everything. And then I’d go to this school and there was nothing but gangs and, you know, it’s like all minorities. There’s no balance of anything. And the teachers, they didn’t really care because they were kind of fed up with everything. There was, there were girls that were twelve years old, pregnant. All kinds of stuff. Yeah. So, it was a different shift.

00:16:38HO: Okay. So, I’m kind of—Was there a middle school in your new area? Is that why you had to go to Montgomery?

00:16:44DOAN: I lived in a weird—like there was weird boundaries. So, I couldn’t—There was a school in Clairemont called Taft that was, you know, zoned differently or something. So, all the people that lived kind of like by Sharp Hospital or something would go to Taft, but my side had to go to Montgomery.

00:17:06HO: Okay. I was going to say I’m kind of surprised that your mom left that neighborhood only for you to have to come back to school.

00:17:11DOAN: Yeah. Well, my mom actually left when I was twelve, too. So, that changed the whole dynamic of everything as well.

00:17:22HO: Okay. So, your brother left and then she left.

00:17:25DOAN: Yep. They both kind of left at the same time.

00:17:27HO: Okay. Was that related?

00:17:29DOAN: No. Well, yes and no. My dad was an alcoholic for most of my life. So, I guess, well, my brother had to leave because he went to medical school. And then my mom left soon after that because she was just fed up, you know.

00:17:44HO: With?

00:17:45DOAN: With my dad’s alcoholism and, you know, verbally abusiveness and physical. And I guess she thought at the time that I was finally old enough to understand or something? So, you know, yeah, I remember because she usually stays home on Mondays. So, there was one Monday I walked home from school. And she usually cooks me like some random dish on Mondays so when I get home, I could eat it. And she’ll go do her errands or something. But that day I walked in, and I didn’t see anybody. So, I was like “What’s going on?” So, I went to her room, and I didn’t see anyone there. And I went to her closet. And I didn’t see any of her clothes. So, I was like, “Okay, maybe she went to Vietnam and forgot to tell me or something.” So, I walked to—I tried calling her and she wouldn’t pick up. And I walked to her best friend’s house which was in the same apartment complex as well, about like three, four doors down. And she opened the door, and I asked her. I’m like “Oh, where’s my mom?” And she’s like “Oh, I don’t know. I haven’t heard from her.” I’m like “Okay.” So, I went back, and I called my brother. I’m like, “Dude, where’s mom?” And he was like “I don’t know. What happened?” And I was like “I don’t know. No one’s here. And all her stuff is gone.” And he was like “Okay.” So, I was just sitting there, not knowing what was going on. And then, of course, my dad went drinking that night, right? So, when he came back, I was kind of freaking out because, you know, he was going to get mad and then go crazy. But, you know, he was so drunk when he got back, he didn’t even realize she was gone, ‘til the next morning.

00:19:20HO: Wow.

00:19:21DOAN: Yeah. Yep. So, next morning, I talked to him. He was like “Where’s your mom?” And I’m like “I have no clue.” But she didn’t contact me until maybe three weeks later to tell me that she moved to Washington, D.C., or something—I think it was D.C. at the time, yeah. And then she asked me to come with her or to go over there. And in my mind, that would have been the easier thing to do because, you know, my dad’s great but he has no clue what he’s doing when it comes to being like a single parent, you know. Because I was with my mom most of the time. So, I told her, I’m like “I want to, but I don’t think I can. Because if I do, like dad’s not going to have anything left and then he’s just going to, you know, that’s going to be the end for him, you know what I mean?” So, I’m like “I’ll just take it, and I’ll stay.” So, I stayed and, you know, he was going through his depression for a while. Like at that age, you know, he would go to work, come back, drink. He would just do the same thing every day. He barely ate —He would eat like a little bit of pho every night, some chips or something. And then just drink, you know. And when I’d get home—It came out on paper they weren’t separated or anything. So, you know, we were still paying like full amount of rent or whatnot, with the Section 8. I had to lie to my grandparents and my whole family. I had to tell them that my mom went to go work somewhere else for, temporarily, to get money or something. So, I had to lie to them for like six, seven years.

00:20:28HO: Wow! To your ong noi and bà nội (ba noi, paternal grandmother)?

00:21:00DOAN: Mm-hmm. So, that’s how long my dad tried to hide it. My grandma wasn’t dumb though. She was still—she was only like seventy at the time.

00:21:06HO: And they were nearby?

00:21:08DOAN: They were—At the time, they were. They eventually moved back to Orange County. But they knew. Because my mom was close to them, too, you know. And she talked to them eventually. But my dad’s youngest sister was the one who knew like everything because my mom was really close to her. And she was the one housing my brother while he was in medical school, as well. So, you know, he was working. He was doing what he could. You know, he would give me maybe like twenty bucks a week or something. Because he wasn’t—He didn’t cook anymore. He didn’t do anything, you know. So, most of those days were spent me coming home from school and he would be like just “Oh, just find something to eat.” And I’m like “Okay.” (chuckles)

00:21:42HO: What would you find?

00:21:45DOAN: Nothing. I just—Just whatever. It’s like I used to, you know—Me and my friend would go to like the—I knew that KFC threw out their food at night, at the end of the night. So, I had a friend that worked there, so she would give me some of the food. And I used to steal food from 7-11 all the time. I used to just go to my cousin’s house and act like everything’s cool. I didn’t want to make my dad look bad either. So, I couldn’t, you know, scavenge all their food. But my aunt eventually—My dad’s sister eventually like caught on. And every time I’d go up there to see my brother for the weekend, she would just go to Costco and just buy me a bunch of stuff so I could take it home. And, you know, she was the only one that really like knew what was going on. Because my mom would tell her everything was cool. Every day—I mean, she was calling me pretty often and she would be like “Oh, did you eat today?” And I’d be like “yeah, I did.” Or whatever. But yeah. It was an interesting time. Because I couldn’t—I was trying not to make anyone look bad, you know what I mean? But I was suffering while I was doing it, you know. Because when I would go to my cousin’s house in the morning, I was so hungry, but I couldn’t eat too much or else they would know something’s going on. But yeah, I couldn’t say anything.

00:23:04HO: That’s a lot for a twelve-year-old to carry.

00:23:06DOAN: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

00:23:10HO: So, how did this affect your schooling? Like I bet you were hungry when you went to school.

00:23:15DOAN: Well, I used to take—Well, I had a free lunch. So, I would go there for a lunch, breakfast. Sometimes, I would take the food home with me. And people would give me food if they weren’t eating it or whatever. I’d put it in my backpack and just save it for later, you know. But I don’t think it affected me as much because most of the kids around me were going through similar things. You know what I mean? Like I had a friend—me and him, whenever we could find like fifty cents, we would put it together, get one like of those chicken snacker at KFC. At that time, it was a dollar. So, we’d get that, and we’d split it or something, you know. But yeah, we were going through the same things. So, maybe I didn’t feel like it was as significant because of that. But now, looking back, obviously you’re like “Oh. That was pretty bad.” (chuckles)

00:24:04HO: Yeah. It didn’t hit you until later.

00:24:06DOAN: Uh-huh. Yeah. Because there was nothing to compare it to. You know what I mean?

00:24:10HO: Yeah. Yeah. It was just your life.

00:24:12DOAN: Yeah.

00:24:14HO: So, have you like worked through all of that, like emotionally?

00:24:18DOAN: I think so.

00:24:19HO: Have you been to therapy?

00:24:20DOAN: It took me a long time to get over the whole not having mom around thing. I was—It was kind of like a self-therapy that I went through. I was with a lot of different women in my life because, you know, I tried to fill that void. But there was, you know, at one point, I was like okay. I need—I had to analyze what was really going on. I had to analyze what I wanted and what I needed and why I needed it, you know? And, yeah, as I grew up and my career bloomed and I had something else to focus on, I was able to reflect more on it and kind of dissect it and kind of finally make peace with it, you know what I mean?

00:25:03HO: Have you made peace with it?

00:25:04DOAN: Yeah. Yeah. That’s why I started writing my book and everything. It’s finally time to like go back and kind of pinpoint those things and analyze it while I’m writing so that, you know, the next person who’s going through the same thing can, you know, take something from it.

00:25:22HO: Yeah. Is there anybody that’s helping you analyze?

00:25:26DOAN: Mmm, no.

00:25:27HO: Okay. It’s just you with your thoughts.

00:25:29DOAN: I have a crazy brain. So— (chuckles)

00:25:33HO: Okay. Tell me more about that.

00:25:34DOAN: Just I just feel like I met so many different people as a tattoo artist. And I’ve helped them through so much. And I’ve also learned a lot through them and their mistakes as well. So, I’ve lived through everyone else’s mistakes as well as my own. And I’ve gained the knowledge through all of it as well. You know what I mean? So, I don’t know. I have a weird way of reading people, certain scenarios, things. I’m very content with—I don’t know how to explain this. I’m very content with my thoughts now. I’m very content with how things are. And I’m ready to basically proceed to the next thing, you know what I mean?

00:26:22HO: Yeah. Okay. Wow. That’s quite a journey. So, you were in survival mode before. Do you ever feel like you’re in survival mode now?

00:26:32DOAN: I think it’s just—You mean like financially? Or—

00:26:35HO: I don’t know. Anything.

00:26:36DOAN: Oh, okay. Well, you know what. I learned at a very early age that I can’t depend on anybody. It’s good and it’s bad, you know. I’m not good at delegating. I’m not good at trusting people to do certain things with other responsibilities. So, I put all that pressure on myself. And, you know, if let’s say we want to start a business venture, I would have to know every micro detail about that business, how to run it from the taxes to the promo to the just every day, daily operations. I want to know everything. So, it’s a lot of pressure because I have to know so much that I just can’t focus on, you know, growing a company or something. So, it definitely takes longer to excel in multiple aspects of something rather than just to focus on specializing in that, you know. But it’s worth it in the end because no one can stop you, you know. If everyone were to leave—Like say you had twenty employees and they all leave, you’ll still be able to run it yourself. Versus you depending on all twenty of those people to do, to delegate something to. Whenever one piece of the puzzle is missing, you’re in panic mode, you know. So, I’ve made it a point not to put myself in that position ever again. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think just recently I figured that out. Maybe, I don’t know, five, six years ago. Yeah.

00:28:12HO: And it seems like it has worked well for you. Your business seems to be successful.

00:28:15DOAN: Yeah, yeah. I’m content. I’m running things the way I want it. I had a business partner before. But I learned—That was like the last straw, where I learned that I have to do things myself, you know. Because when you don’t know where the money’s going, when you don’t know how to do one thing or another, you know, you get taken advantage of in one way or another. So, you gotta look out for yourself in that aspect.

00:28:47HO: Okay. Did you get taken advantage of by your partner?

00:28:49DOAN: Mmm, in a sense. In a sense. But I made up for it, you know what I mean?

00:28:54HO: What do you mean you made up for it?

00:28:55DOAN: Well, when you’re really young and you don’t know which direction to go —I met him when I was nineteen. So, when you’re really young, you don’t know which direction to go. You kind of look, you know, you look to someone older who has experience to kind of guide you through that, you know. And sometimes you get too dependent on that person. And you end up losing sight of the amount of work one person is doing versus another. And then, if you don’t say anything, it just keeps going and going. But in your mind, you want to be loyal, and you want to be a good business partner. So, you just stay quiet, and you ride it through and hope that things will balance out eventually. But then, there comes a point where you’re working yourself to the ground and you can see that things aren’t balanced, where you gotta cut it off, you know, however painful that may be. In the long run, it’s the better option, you know, for you and for whoever is working for you.

00:29:58HO: And has it been better for you after all?

00:30:00DOAN: Yeah. Yeah. Things are a lot smoother. I mean it’s always better to have one perspective and one goal, or one person’s goal, rather than multiple people, you know what I mean? It gets confusing for the business and for the people who work for the business, and the customers, you know.

00:30:23HO: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, that singular vision is really important, so you all know exactly where you’re headed.

00:30:29DOAN: And at least if you make a mistake and you fail, you know that it’s your failure.

00:30:34HO: Mm-hmm. Can’t blame anyone else.

00:30:35DOAN: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:30:37HO: Mmm. Okay. Um, okay. There’s so, like there’s so much I want to ask you.

00:30:45DOAN: I know. My life is a roller coaster. So, it’s everywhere.

00:30:47HO: Yeah.

00:30:48DOAN: Yeah.

00:30:50HO: I want to hear about your path to your career as a tattoo artist. I know you have a new, newish non-profit venture. And I want to know about that as well. But tell me about how you became a tattoo artist.

00:31:34DOAN: Okay. So, this is going to be a long story.

01:31:05HO: Okay.

01:31:07DOAN: Um, so, you know, I grew up in like a semi-ghetto neighborhood. So, there’s a lot of guys with tattoos and whatnot walking around. And my brother’s, some of my brother’s friends have tattoos. He had none though. But, you know, they were still considered very taboo within our community at the time. Because even though we were—the Vietnamese community was in San Diego, it was still nothing but Vietnamese people there. So, they spoke Vietnamese. They had the same values, tradition, and perceptions. So, we were always taught, “Oh, this guy has tattoos. He’s no good. Probably just got out of jail,” or whatever. Things changed as I got older because we were dipping into the 2000s. And I was like, “What the heck. Like I like that. Why can’t I do it, you know?” So, when I was—Actually, when I was twelve years old, again, I decided I was going to try to give myself a tattoo (chuckles). So, I went to Michael’s. I think I went with my mom to Mission Valley Mall. I took myself to Michael’s. And I got, I just got a sewing needle and some green acrylic paint. Because I thought tattoo ink was green at the time. Remember it used to fade green?

01:32:25HO: Yeah. Yeah.

01:32:26DOAN: So, I got some dark green acrylic paint. And what else did I get? I think that’s it. I got some other solution to make that paint thinner. But I just used that, and I just carved right into me.

01:32:42HO: Into yourself. Wow. What did you carve into yourself, if I may ask?

01:32:46DOAN: Um, it was a really light Louis Vuitton logo for the “LV.” Linda Vista. Like monogram, yeah. So, that was dumb. But I did that. It was so light, though. My parents didn’t even notice it, you know. But then fast forward, when I started hanging out with like gangsters, when I was about fifteen years old, I hung out with this older guy named Đăng (Dang) who’s in Vietnam now. Because he was—The U.S. Marshals were looking for him. So, he left. But he was tattooing out of his house. He used to work at a shop. He had gotten out of prison doing like seven to ten years or something. But I used to hang out at his house a lot and my friends were there all the time. And, you know, of course I want a tattoo. So, I asked him. I wanted my back done and I was like “How much would you charge me to get my back done?” And he said “Seven hundred dollars” which is not a lot. But being fifteen years old, it’s a lot of money, you know. So, I was like, “Aw, man. I can’t afford that.” But all my friends got tattooed by him. So, I was like, “You know, I’ll just wait a little bit.” So, I had a friend from Afghanistan that came when I was in fifth grade. And we were good friends. He lived in the same apartment complex. And he used to be able to make anything, even at the age of ten, eleven. Like he made like fans, all kinds of like all the electrical stuff. Like I always messed around with him. But I asked him how I can make a tattoo machine. So, this was before like YouTube taught this stuff and everything. And he was just like “Oh, we’re just going to make a motor for you.” And I’m like “All right.” So, he made me a motor out of like a RC car, and I put one of those pink erasers from the pencils on there. And we got some guitar string and a sewing needle. And we used the shaft of like a Bic pen. And we had a tattoo machine.

01:34:45HO: Wow! It worked?

01:34:48DOAN: Yeah. Yeah, it worked.

01:34:50HO: Who did you test it on?

01:34:52DOAN: Uh, myself.

01:34:53HO: Oh, wow! Again.

01:34:54DOAN: Yeah. So, I did my thighs. And then, when I decided to dive deep into it, I told my cousin who was already eighteen, I was like “Okay, I need to find like a tattoo kit or something.” You know? I thought at the time, I think eBay was the only one that sold them from China. So, it was going to be like the worst quality. But it came with like a bunch of little inks and stuff. And so, I waited for a while. I got it. And I had no clue what I was doing. There was like a DVD that came with it or something. So, I watched a little bit of that. But I couldn’t really know until I used it. So, my cousin from France was actually visiting me that summer. And he’s like “Just test it on me.” So, I said, “Okay.” So, I did it. I did this Chinese symbol for energy on his chest, which still looks good today, actually.

01:35:41HO: Oh, really? That’s cool.

01:35:43DOAN: Yeah. But I knew nothing about needles. You know, there’s different sizes, configurations, whatever. But in my mind, I’m like “Oh. It has to be like drawing with a pen.” So, all I used was the smallest needles (pinches his right thumb and forefinger together to indicate something very tiny). And, you know, I even did like a whole back piece with this tiny, little needle, when—And then, later on, I realized there were bigger needles that I could shade with that are—that’d make it a lot faster. Yeah. But I didn’t know. I had this whole box of like a variety of them that came with the kit. So, I was just trying them all. I didn’t look at the size. I didn’t know anything about sizes. So, I just eyeballed it. (pinches his fingers and looks down, indicating eyeballing something) And looked and did it. Yeah. But I never intended to do it for money. I was doing it for fun. But then when I started to actually need money, I had a friend named Jamie. She was the one who pushed me to start charging people. She was like “Oh, you’re good. You might as well do it.” Because there weren’t that many Asian tattoo artists in the neighborhood, anyway, you know. So, it was illegal, obviously. Because I was underaged too. But I was tattooing, you know, just my friends pretty much. So, I would have her park outside my apartment complex because I didn’t want to park it inside. And I’d have someone go out there, walk them to my apartment where they’d come in, and my whole room I set up like a studio. I literally didn’t have a bed in there. I took it out. And I put a massage table in there. And that’s what I slept on.

01:37:11HO: Wow.

01:37:12DOAN: Yeah.

01:37:13HO: Oh, my goodness. And this was in the place you were living in with your dad?

01:37:16DOAN: Mm-hmm. Just me and him. He didn’t know I was tattooing for like three years.

01:37:22HO: How did you hide it from him?

01:37:23DOAN: Well, he was barely home. So, he was barely home and at the time I was also cutting hair. I was cutting hair and I was fixing cars. I was doing whatever I could because, obviously, being a teenager in the 2000s, you couldn’t do anything with no money, you know. You couldn’t go to movies. You couldn’t, you know, buy clothes. It was like a popularity contest all the time, you know. So, you always felt that constant pressure to get the next best thing or get the nice clothes or else no girls are going to like you. So, I had to do something. You know? Couldn’t get a job, really.

01:37:59HO: Yeah. How old were you?

01:38:01DOAN: I was like fifteen. I got arrested a few times.

01:38:05HO: For tattooing?

01:38:07DOAN: Um, no. (laughs) I had—I got arrested for like shoplifting once; suspicion of auto theft once. But I never—Nothing ever came from it. Just my parents got in trouble if anything, you know. Paying fines and stuff.

01:38:23HO: Okay.

01:38:24DOAN: Yeah. But yeah. So, after that, I tattooed for a little bit, built some notoriety in my given area. I tattooed mostly Asians and Mexicans because that’s pretty much who I grew up with. I was ready to get rid of those Chinese tattoo machines and go to something better. So, I needed to find something more professional. But you couldn’t buy those unless you were working at a tattoo shop. So, we had to look on Craigslist and all that. And I found somebody that was selling something. And I contacted him to ask if it was still available. And I did this on MySpace, because he linked his MySpace. And it was a tattoo artist. And he told me that he had already sold those, but he was looking at my work and saw I did Asian art. And he needed Asian artists at his tattoo shop. So, I’m like “Okay. Like that’s cool!” And I wanted to learn the right way. I’m like “Are you like taking apprenticeships right now?” And he was like “No. We just need like an artist.” Literally, to draw for them to tattoo.

01:39:32HO: Oh!

01:39:33DOAN: I’m like “Ehhh, I don’t know, man.” Because I had gotten an offer, maybe when I was sixteen, to draw for Baby Bash, the singer rapper. He was doing a shoe line and he wanted to do some Asian designs for the shoes. And I rejected that because I was so young. I couldn’t go to Or—It was in Orange County. I couldn’t just go to Orange County and do it, you know? So, I rejected that. And this time, with this guy, I was just like, “Mmm, I mean, we can try it out.” You know what I mean? But I was about to go to San Diego State already. So, the summer before San Diego State, you know, I met up with him and his business partner. And they didn’t even have a shop yet, okay? So, it was kind of sketchy. But they lived over there like towards, you know, La Mesa or something in San Diego. And I went to this guy’s apartment. And they were just in the house kind of setting up everything because they were about to move into the shop. And it wasn’t really like a shop-shop, either. It was like a small like medical studio, in Hillcrest. And it was literally just a small room, like three hundred square feet. And both of these guys were trying to work in there. So, it was two Caucasian guys, okay. The first time I met them, they were telling me, yeah, you know, they need some designs because they do a lot of designs for different clubs or whatever. And I’m like, “What kind of clubs are you talking about?” He was like, “Oh, like motorcycle clubs and stuff.” And I’m like “Okay.” I’m like, “What kind of motorcycle club?” And then he gave me all these references, and everything was a woodpecker. Right? You ever heard of the Pecker Woods?

01:41:21HO: No.

01:41:22DOAN: Like the Aryan brotherhood?

01:41:23HO: Oh really?

01:41:24DOAN: Yeah. So, anyway. It was like skinhead, Aryan brotherhood, whatever, right?

01:41:31HO: I’ve heard of Aryan brotherhood.

01:41:32DOAN: Yeah. So, they were in the Aryan brotherhood when they were inside. They were both locked up for ten years before they came out. That’s how they met, in prison, right? So, they came out and decided to do the shop together. And, you know, I was the only guy there. And I didn’t care. It was like I just needed an opportunity, you know. And they were nice to me. They had no problem with me, I guess, because I’m Asian or something. But, you know, you can hear the racism, them towards other people. And, you know, my time there was interesting because they didn’t let me tattoo yet, because technically I was an artist, you know. They didn’t need me until they went to a convention in Vegas, and they wanted me to, basically, make money for them while they were gone. So, that’s when I was able to start tattooing. They didn’t even have their own furniture or anything. They actually used my stuff. Because I had already—I had everything already set up in my room. So, I just transferred it over, you know. But I treated that place like my own. I painted the walls by myself. I decorated myself, organized it, always cleaned up after them. I treated myself as an apprentice, but I really wasn’t. I was just trying to like, you know, pitch in, pretty much. But yeah. It was interesting because I was covering up a lot of swastikas. I met a lot of ‘em. (chuckles) But they all loved me. So, I don’t know. It was weird. It was just a weird dynamic. And, you know, if you know anything about like the prison life, you know most people in there, it’s very trapped lives in there. Obviously, they all have to stick to their own people. When they’re out here, it’s different. You know what I mean? They can be friends. They can be best friends, and one guy could be black, and one guy could be white. But in there, you can’t. So—Yeah. So, yeah. I did a lot of that. But when these two guys came back from their convention in Vegas, they had some problems, I guess. I already knew there was going to be problems because one guy did all the line work for the tattoos and one guy did all the shading. So, you already know, it takes more to do shading than line work. But they always split it 50/50. So, you already knew that wasn’t going to work out. And then the guy that did the line work, he wasn’t as good as the other guy. But he was more disciplined, right? He was more of a businessman. And the shading guy, he was phenomenal, like his work. Me studying his work is what —my observing of it is what inspired me to tattoo the way I tattoo. You know what I mean? Because he could freehand anything. Like he literally tattooed himself in prison, like his whole arm. And it is perfectly symmetrical. Yeah. It’s pretty crazy. The other guy, though, he was like, he was hit or miss. But he was, you know, a normal dude. More normal. They eventually parted ways. And so, it was just me. And his name is Willis. So, it was just me and Willis left, right? So, it was just me and Willis left and, you know, he was cool. We basically took turns working. I became like, technically, his business partner. But I wasn’t. I mean, I gave 50% of everything I made. I started to get a lot of clients. And then, eventually, he got back on drugs, smoking, all that and kind of went downhill. And I ended up being the only one there, all the time. And I didn’t care. I got to work, you know. So, I kept doing that until he got—I guess, he felt he was spiraling. So, I had met my former business partner at that time. And he used to come hang out which is—It’s ironic, because he was a correctional officer before. Right? And his friend was Willis’s parole officer. So, this whole weird dynamic going on in my world. But anyway, he gave me the idea that we should leave. So, I was like I thought about it and I’m like “Yeah…” But, you know, I’m a loyal person. So, I said, “I don’t know. Let’s give him a chance. Whatever.” And I forgot what happened but there was one night he came in drunk or something, the—Willis came in drunk. And I was like, “You know what. I’m done.” So, we took all our stuff and we just left. Well, all my stuff, and just left. I didn’t care that I didn’t have another shop to go to or anything. I just stopped tattooing for a little bit. And we just kept rolling around, looking for real estate to, you know, to lease. It was super hard because I wanted it to be in my neighborhood in Linda Vista or Kearny Mesa. But no one would allow me to open there. Because it was a “family oriented” (makes quotation gestures with his fingers) neighborhood, right? The only tattoo shop there was on Clairemont (Mesa Blvd.) which is “Absolute Tattoo” and they’ve been there since the ‘80s or something. So, I looked everywhere. I looked at Chula Vista. I looked more north. And then, just no luck. So, we ended up having to go to City Heights, which I did not want to be there because I felt like it didn’t allow me the space to grow. It was more like purely a starter business. I wanted it to be somewhere where it had the potential to last, you know, forever in that location. You know what I mean? The only place that was available in City Heights was a three-story building, the Chinese looking one. You know what I’m talking about?

01:47:06HO: Oh, what? The grocery store.

01:47:08DOAN: Mmm, on 47th and El Cajon. AB—it’s like Asian Business Center.

01:47:13HO: Oh! Really!

01:47:15DOAN: So, I was on the second floor.

01:47:16HO: Oh, I didn’t know your shop was there. Okay.

01:47:19DOAN: So, it was owned by an Italian guy. The building was built by Vietnamese people. Owned by an Italian guy with a Chinese wife, okay? So, he knew that we needed it, obviously, because my business partner at the time had like really bad credit. And I was only like nineteen. I had no credit, you know. So, he knew that we needed the spot. So, he overcharged us, obviously. So, the walls were crooked. The floors, the concrete on the floor was so bad that it was like peeling off. Yeah. It was like soft concrete. It was so weird. But yeah. It was really weird. It was a really weird spot. We had like this giant hallway (indicates a narrow pathway with both hands), I mean long hallway that went super deep in and then you’ve got this little space (gestures space opening wider with his arms). So, that hallway was useless. But that was like two-hundred-square-feet of hallway, you know. But we stayed there for a good, maybe, five years.

01:48:14HO: Oh. That’s a long time.

01:48:16DOAN: Yeah. Well, every two years from that point—so, 2010, we opened that shop. And I got like a few apprentices. I ended up getting like five or six artists there. So, after that, I left. And I went to open a private studio across the street for myself. So, I worked there by myself for a little bit. And then, two years after that is when I opened Black Lotus now.

01:48:42HO: Okay. Okay.

01:48:43DOAN: Yeah. So, I’ve been there since 2014. So, that’s my third shop, Black Lotus. So, long story short, you know, I’ve had a lot of apprentices. I’ve had a lot of artists work for me. You know, people come and go. Some have gone on to open their own shops. And some just don’t tattoo anymore, you know. A lot of them have had a problem with a business partner and left. And so, we were down to almost nothing. Like literally every—I felt like when I was able to be there with my guys—because I was the one doing the tattoos—they were more in tune with everything. Everyone was happier, all that. But as soon as I left whatever shop that was, everything would just go haywire, you know. My business partner wasn’t a tattoo artist. He was just in management, pretty much.

01:49:33HO: Okay. It sounds—There was—I didn’t hear a huge jump from when you went from apprentice, to like, business owner and professional.

01:49:46DOAN: Yeah. It wasn’t long. It was like a year. Maybe a year, yeah.

01:49:49HO: Okay. So, was there any—

01:49:51DOAN: But I wasn’t an apprentice, though. That’s the weird thing.

01:49:53HO: Right. You were actually an equal.

01:49:54DOAN: If I had really done it, yeah. Because even the health inspector was surprised, and was like, “How old are you?” Because they just wanted to license me so I could start working right away. And I was only like eighteen. She even said I was probably the youngest registered tattoo artist in history.

01:50:09HO: Wow!

01:50:10DOAN: Yeah. Because of that, though. Not in a good way, you know what I mean?

01:50:14HO: Yeah.

01:50:15DOAN: But I met her again recently because they used our facility to teach their inspectors how to like inspect, pretty much. So, that was cool.

01:50:26HO: That is cool! That’s where your attention to detail with every little thing comes.

01:50:31DOAN: Yeah. And I was actually trying to go for pre-med when I was in school too. Yeah.

01:50:36HO: Okay. I was going to ask how this interfered with your time at San Diego State.

01:50:40DOAN: Um, it—I don’t know. I was actually really bored at San Diego State, you know. Yeah. I messed around a lot during my sophomore and junior years of high school. I missed a lot of school, like ninety days each year because I was tattooing at home. You know, I needed money more than I needed to go to school. And, of course, no one cared if I go or not because, you know, my dad didn’t really understand the dynamic of everything when it comes to school, how it’s illegal to ditch. Yeah. So, a lot of time, I just stayed home. If it was sunny, I would walk to school. If it wasn’t, I would just stay home. And no one was there to say anything to me about it, you know. So, I had to motivate myself to get my head back in the game when I was a senior. And then, it was frustrating because I had to retake a few classes which—It was really weird because I had—I was in AP English as a senior with a woman named Ms. Walker (Emily Walker) . She was—Everyone said she was so mean, but she was super nice to me. But I was a senior, taking AP English with her while I was taking sophomore English with her as well. So, she was like, “Why are you here?” And I’m like “I don’t know.” So, she just made me a TA. So did all my other teachers, like the Chemistry teacher. Because they knew I knew what I was doing. I just wasn’t there, you know. So, I had to take half the semester over with those classes. But yeah. That was cool. She even gave me a hundred bucks when I graduated. (smiles and nods)

01:52:11HO: That’s nice. That’s really sweet.

01:52:14DOAN: So, I ended up graduating with honors from high school. I had a few full-ride offers, like CSU Long Beach, San Diego State. I really wanted to go to UCSD, but they didn’t accept me for some reason, you know. My brother went there. That’s why.

01:52:32HO: That’s why you wanted to go?

01:52:34DOAN: Yeah. I think a lot of things I wanted to do was motivated by him at that time in my life. So, they didn’t accept me, and I had a choice between, you know, going to school far away or staying here. And in my mind, though, the way I thought of it was would I rather be mediocre at a like, you know, A-tier school or would I rather stand out at a okay school. (laughs) No offense. But that’s the problem. When I went to San Diego State, I was really bored. I felt like I knew too much already about what I wanted to get into, and the classes I took were just, you know, unnecessary. I took a course on Asian Studies at San Diego State and literally the whole semester was spent on watching movies and videos on kids in the Philippines. And we spent maybe, I don’t know, maybe two weeks on all the other countries. (chuckles) So, I was like, “What the heck.” So, maybe three weeks into that class, I just tattooed one of my classmates and told him to just do all the work for me. And I passed it, right. But I took an art history class. That was kind of weird. We were just studying cave paintings all the time. Yeah. I didn’t know what the real world like application was to that, besides people that are really interested in like cave paintings. But as soon as I was in there for maybe three to four weeks, I was done. I had a Chemistry class where there was something to solve that the teacher wrote on the board and for some reason no one could figure it out. So, at the end of class, I raised my hand, and I was like, “Can you like show us what you’re trying to do?” And they couldn’t figure it out either. So, at that point, I was like I’m done with this class, you know. Because most of them are grad students trying to finish their thing. So, I don’t hold it against them. But that was not good. (chuckles)

01:54:47HO: Right.

01:54:48DOAN: Yeah. So, I went there for like a year-and-a-half, two years. And then I just didn’t go back. Yeah. They even had —They even made me pay back money because I got the scholarship money.

01:54:57HO: Financial aid, yeah. What was your intention with going to college, like—

01:55:03DOAN: I was trying to be a plastic surgeon.

01:55:05HO: Oh, okay. Okay.

01:55:07DOAN: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Big undertaking (laughs).

01:55:09HO: Yeah. So, you were going to go to med school then at some point.

01:55:11DOAN: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Even at the age of, you know, ten, eleven, I was already trying to read my brother’s like biochem books and all that. Just to feel like a smart kid. But, you know, eventually I caught on. I took some athletic training classes. In high school, I knew about the human anatomy. I knew everything already to prepare me for that, you know. And I was really interested in helping people. I mean, it helps me a lot in my daily tattoo job too. Because I know when someone’s body reacts a certain way, I know exactly what it is. Even my—the people that work in my shop, every time they get sick, they’ll call me. Like “What do I do? What do I take?” So, it’s funny how it all applies to your life now, you know. Mm-hmm. But yeah. I definitely tried to groom myself to get there.

01:56:08HO: Okay. Okay. I have so many follow-up questions. I’ll try to stay on topic. So, tell me how your dad reacted when he found out that you were tattooing and how does he feel about it now? Like how has that evolved?

01:56:24DOAN: Well, they didn’t know I dropped out. I mean, I was already past eighteen, so. When I would come home earlier, then he’d be like “Why are you home so early?” you know. I just told him that I was taking a break from school to focus on my job. He—They thought I worked at some graphic design firm or something. Because I do graphic design, too. So, he thought I was just doing that. I had to have him co-sign my first shop, though, because I didn’t have credit, you know. So, it was just like—I know that was big for him because, you know, I was a knucklehead at the time. So, he probably didn’t trust me, thought I was going to mess him up. But I had him put his name on that and I’m like, “Just trust me. I got it, you know.” So, it wasn’t until I opened like my third shop ‘til he took it seriously. Yeah. Because my parents were asking me constantly, “Well, when are you going back to school? When are you going back to school?” I’m like, “I’m not going back, dude. I have like three businesses, you know.” But I knew they were okay with it when they started asking me for stuff, (laughs) like “Can you pay for this?” or, you know, “Buy me this.” My brother was kind of —He knew I went through a lot trying to like catch up with him or—it’s because my parents were kind of there for him throughout his whole like childhood. And when he went to medical school, everyone supported him. My aunt, you know, took care of him and everything. But when it came time for me, like no one was there for me, you know? So, we had a different struggle. Although he lived like a really bad life in Vietnam with my parents, and then, you know, came over here to become a success, I had like a different set of problems I dealt with, you know, even being born in America, you know. You can’t compare the two because they’re so dramatically different. But he knew. So, he told me, just do whatever makes me happy. He was like, “As long as you’re a good person, that’s all that matters.” Because he knew I had the pressure on me to do, you know, be a doctor or lawyer or whatever it may have been.

01:58:30HO: Yeah. Okay.

01:58:31DOAN: And he found out I was tattooing when I was like sixteen, so—

01:58:35HO: How did he find out?

01:58:37DOAN: Um, I slept at his house, and I made the mistake of wearing a T-shirt. And I already had—Keep in mind, at the age of fifteen, I already had both my legs tattooed, like most of my body, and then both half-sleeves done. (laughs) So, I was sleeping with a short-sleeved shirt, and I had like my arm up or something. And then he—we went to go eat the next day and he was like “Man, I could have swore I saw a tattoo on your arm or something.” And I’m like “No. What are you talking about?” And he lifted up, I think, the wrong arm because I didn’t have one on the other side. And he was like “What the heck?” So, then later on, he does it again while I’m in the car with him, and he’s like “I know I saw a tattoo.” And then he lifted up the right arm and he’s like “When the heck did you get that?” And I’m like “Uh, I started tattooing on the side to make money and stuff.” And he’s like “Okay.” And he was just telling me like “Be careful.” Whatever. And that’s it. Kind of just end of story, you know.

01:59:31HO: Okay.

01:59:32DOAN: Yeah.

01:59:34HO: How has the Vietnamese community reacted? And Vietnamese American? I assume it’s somewhat different.

01:59:44DOAN: It’s been interesting because I’m really—I’m very proper, you know. I’m very respectful to the elders. I’ve been involved with the community for so long because I was—I helped like the Vietnamese Boy Scouts out most of my life. I was in like Vietnamese Lion dancing. I’ve attended, you know, all the festivals, restaurant grand openings. And I have a lot of family, you know. So, I guess my family doesn’t, never took offense to me tattooing or anything. They always, eventually, like made a joke out of it. Like “Oh, tattoo a fly on me,” or something, you know. But they never looked down on it or anything. My parents have a lot of siblings. They have ten each. So, there’s a lot of family. They all know what I do and what I’m doing with it. So, I think they’re okay with that. Even my family that came here recently from Vietnam, they’re, you know, pretty accepting of everything. But I don’t know. I guess society as a whole, when you’re talking about Vietnamese people, they’re still judgmental, obviously. I’ve been to events where, you know, I could be donating like a few thousand dollars, and I’ll sit down at the table with people I don’t know, and they won’t say a word to me. They won’t talk to me or anything until after they realize who I am or what I’ve done. And then all of a sudden, it’s “Oh. Can I take a picture with you?” or “Can you help me with this?” but yeah. Unfortunately, that’s the way it is but it’s up to us to change it, you know.

02:01:22HO: Okay. And what about the tattooing community?

02:01:27DOAN: Tattooing community?

02:01:28HO: Yeah.

02:01:29DOAN: Kind of the same thing, because I didn’t have a formal apprenticeship. I taught myself how to tattoo. At the time, when I was starting out, it was still very—Tattooing was very—It’s a tight-knit community, I guess you could say. The only way you learn is if you learn from like this guy that passed it down to that guy. It was—There wasn’t public information out about it because they didn’t want it to get bigger. And there weren’t that many clients at the time either. Because there was no shows out or anything. So, you take what you can get. And they didn’t want competition, you know. I got in at the right time when it was blowing up. So, I kind of like took all the customers from San Diego, especially the Asian customers. So, you know, I got a lot of hate, even with the Asian tattoo artists in San Diego. There’s only like two or three of them.

02:02:27HO: Two or three Asian tattoo artists? Asian or Vietnamese?

02:02:31DOAN: At the time. Asian.

02:02:32HO: Oh, wow!

02:02:33DOAN: There weren’t that many. But, obviously, I was impeding on their business, too. And I was young, and I was hungry. So, they were saying “Who the heck is this kid?” That guy I used to hang out with, too, when I was fifteen, he reached out to me when I was about seventeen years old and asked me to work for him. And I said no. Because I didn’t want to tattoo the same way and kind of repeat the same things. So, that’s why I decided that. He was like “Oh, why do you want to work for white dudes, you know.” (shrugs his shoulders) I just wanted to do something different, you know. I wanted to run things different. I wanted people to look at me different. I didn’t want to just be another Asian tattoo artist in San Diego. I wanted to be more and do more, you know.

02:03:19HO: Mm-hmm. Okay. When did you—I think—So, I was looking back, and I was trying to remember when I first heard about you. And it was when you did the art with the girl and the nón lá (non la, Vietnamese conical leaf hat) thing.

02:03:38DOAN: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I call it the Model Minority. But a lot of people refer to it as “Hate is a Virus.”

02:03:43HO: Yes! Hate is a Vi—Okay. Yes. Okay. So, how—can you tell me how that got started as a project?

02:03:48DOAN: Mmm, that was an accident. Actually. Mm-hmm. So, during Covid, I didn’t think it would last as long as it did, the lockdowns. So, you know, they closed —They made me close my shop down for, I think it was seven months or something. It was pretty crazy, which is weird because they left the nail shops open, but not me. (laughs) I was even trying to be innovative and industrious. And I was going to convert the whole outside of my shop into like an outdoor setting, like with tents, canopy, cover, air conditioning vent, everything. But they were like, “No.” (chuckles) But, so we had to stay home. SoI didn’t know what I was doing with myself, and I heard about, you know, all the xenophobia stuff. So, I sat down. I was looking at Instagram and I saw an organization called “Hate is a Virus.” So, I wanted to help them in a way, help kind of amplify the message. And I just sat down and started drawing something. And I don’t usually finish my drawings either because I’m always just prepping for tattoos, you know. But I finally had time to just do whatever I wanted. So, I drawed a little sketch of it and I posted it, and everyone reacted pretty crazy. So, I decided to finish it. And I put it out there, and it kind of like blew up. And I wasn’t planning or intending to do anything with it, like make clothing or any of that. But one of my friends, who I actually just met with before this, he’s the one that—him and my wife were like “Oh, you need to make T-shirts out of this or something.” I’m like “Ehh, I don’t know. I don’t have the money right now,” because my shop was—We were going to be closed for a long time. So, I needed to use my own savings to pay for this. So, I was like, “I don’t know. I don’t have the money right now. It’s just going to be, it’s going to be a waste, you know. You don’t know if people are going to buy it.” And then my friend, he’s a pretty successful businessman. He trapped me and he ordered fifteen hundred shirts, right. Mm hmm. So, he ordered fifteen hundred shirts and he told me, he was just like “Oh, just pay me later.” And I was like “Okay.” That’s like $10,000, right. So, I was like “Okay, now I gotta sell this,” right? I’m pretty persistent and I’m pretty—when I put my mind to something, I’ll do it. I’ll be able to do it. So, I just started cranking out, you know. I had to create the website right away. Get all the analytics in there right away. And just start cranking ‘em out. So, I got all the pre-orders as soon as that happened. It was like a few thousand. I had at least like a thousand-some sales that first run. You know, we were selling them for 30 bucks each and I was donating 10% to Hate is a Virus. So, I mean, that’s a lot of money, right? (chuckles)

02:06:52HO: Yeah. It is.

02:06:54DOAN: So, after that happened, things kind of died down. And I was like “whatever,” you know. I still had like a few shirts left, maybe like three hundred shirts left or something. And I was able to open up the shop again and, you know, things were normal. And then the next year, it blew up again. But I didn’t do anything. It just—Somebody had shared it again. And then that is the year that it blew up like all around the world. So, yeah, one day I just woke up. I’m like “What the heck is going on? Like there’s so many people on my page right now.” So, it reached like Vietnamese celebrities. It reached like, you know, even my client came in one day and she was like “Oh my god, my surgeon just posted up your freaking thing.” I was like “What the heck.” It was some random Indian guy I don’t know, you know. So, there was—Facebook posted it. Instagram posted it. PBS. It was used in protests. It was used on covers of magazines. It was used for—I think it’s in some building at the—What’s that university in Pennsylvania?

02:08:11HO: Penn State?

02:08:13DOAN: Temple? Is it Temple?

02:08:14HO: Oh, Temp—There’s—Yeah. There is Temple University.

02:08:15DOAN: Yeah, I think it was Temple University. Yeah. It was used in a lot of things. And I was like “What the heck is going on?” you know. And to me, I mean, everything I draw I’m kind of like “Okay, whatever,” you know? I don’t really like admire it the same way that people can. Because just like when I cook, I don’t really like eating my cooking. Because I’m so tired of looking at it, you know. But yeah. It meant a lot to a lot of people. And I’m glad.

02:08:42HO: Okay.

02:08:44DOAN: Yeah. So, it opened, definitely opened the doors for me in the sense where there are different people who approach me now to have interviews and everything than just tattoo enthusiasts. You know what I mean? I feel like if I was just a tattoo artist and people only knew me with that, as that person with that title, in your mind you tend to already assume I look a certain way, do certain things, live a certain way. But this kind of changed everything for people. You know what I mean? I did news interviews with like Vietnamese news channels, you know, which is—It must have been weird for her viewers because they’ve probably never seen anybody like me on there. But, you know, it definitely shifts perspectives in a good way. Yeah. Very interesting though. My parents were scared I was going to say something wrong. They were like “Don’t talk politics.” I’m like— (shrugs his shoulders). She did try to trap me into talking about politics. But I didn’t do it.

02:09:55HO: You didn’t fall for it. Okay, yeah. Okay. So, speaking of Vietnam, how often do you go back?

02:10:08DOAN: Mmm, I’ve been there twice. But I haven’t been there since ’09.

02:10:12HO: Oh. It’s been a while.

02:10:13DOAN: Mm-hmm. The first time I went there was scary because I went there in ’05 the first time. And that was my first time ever on an airplane. I was supposed to go with my brother, but we didn’t make the decision until last minute. He bought me a ticket, you know. So, he was able to get me—He was going with his soccer team because he used to play for the Vietnamese league that played with like the Vietnamese soccer team. So, he got me a flight at the same time, but it wasn’t the same flight. And I flew by myself. My first time ever on an airplane. I was flying to Vietnam, right? So, I was like “Okay. I don’t know what I’m doing but—” You know, I flew to Taipei. I didn’t speak their language. I was just kind of like wandering around, trying to look for whatever. Taipei to Vietnam and then I go through customs and they kind of take me back because I had—At the time, I had the map of Vietnam on my arm tattooed with three stripes.

02:11:12HO: Oh.

02:11:13DOAN: Yeah, and it was hot, so I was wearing a tank top. So, they kind of, you know, grilled me for that. But then my brother got there, and his friend knew the customs agent, so they let me go. But yeah. That was interesting.

02:11:25HO: How did you feel like throughout this whole flight experience? Like what was going through your mind?

02:11:30DOAN: I don’t remember. I kind of just like shut it off. I was listening to the same music. There wasn’t that much to listen to at the time. I don’t think they had a lot of movies on there at the time either.

02:11:42HO: In ’05. No, I don’t think so.

02:11:43DOAN: Yeah. So, you know, I was just trying to mind my own business and, you know, do that. I was just more scared if I was going to survive the flight or not. (laughs) Because I’d never been on a plane. So—

02:11:56HO: Yeah. That’s a really long flight for a first time.

02:11:59DOAN: Yep. Yep. I was adventurous back then, so—

02:12:05HO: Wait. Say that again?

02:12:06DOAN: I said I was adventurous back then, though, so—

02:12:08HO: Oh, adventurous.

02:12:09DOAN: I was more curious than anything.

02:12:11HO: Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. And how did the second time go?

02:12:15DOAN: The second time was chill, easy. I flew—The second time there, I met my mom there. My mom had flown over there too. So, me and my brother and my mom. That’s when she found out about all my tattoos. Mm-hmm. Because we went to a spa. I didn’t know it was like a co-ed thing. So, me and my brother, we checked in in one area and my sister-in-law and my mom was in another. So, I’m like “Okay, whatever.” So, I told my brother, I’m like “Dude, Mom is going to see all my tattoos.” And he’s like “No she’s not.” And I’m like “All right.” (shrugs his shoulders) I was wearing like—you know, they have white shorts over there. So, at the end, after we go through everything, we walked to our room for the massage, and I see my mom. I’m like “Oh, shit.” So, she sees me, and she doesn’t say a word to me. And I was like “That’s it.” She like didn’t mention it. She already knew I was doing tattoos. But she didn’t know how many I had; you know. But yeah.

02:13:15HO: Did she follow up on it later?

02:13:16DOAN: No.

02:13:17HO: She never?

02:13:18DOAN: No. She cried one time when she was talking to somebody about it in front of me, though, like “Oh, I can’t believe he got his neck tattooed.” And all that. She’s like “Let me just pay for you to get it lasered off.” I’m like “No. It’s okay.” Because in her mind I think she thinks that if she was here, I wouldn’t have become this person or whatever it may be, you know. That I would have taken a different path if she was around. But I don’t regret anything that happened to me in my life, you know. I think everything happens for a reason and she needed to go in order for me to be this. Like how I am now. You know what I mean? If they had tried to shelter me my whole life, it would have—I don’t know. Maybe I would be in school right now, unhappy with what I was doing. Right? Because if I had gone to another school in another state or something, I probably would have stayed, right, and finished. But, then what? I don’t know. But I’m glad that I did try to make it work, before I gave up on it. Rather than now saying “Oh, what if this happened,” right?

02:13:30HO: Yeah. Yeah. You don’t want those kinds of regrets. Why not at least try it? Have you ever talked to your mom about her leaving?

02:14:40DOAN: No. She doesn’t—She—My family doesn’t talk about anything. We don’t even give each other hugs. It’s very like a super traditional Vietnamese family. It’s just barely—I mean, my dad like hugs my wife and stuff and the kids and all that. But I’m—I don’t know. I guess we’re cold in that sense. It’s just the way it is, you know. It’s just more of the women in the family that do the hugging and kissing and stuff. Which is funny because my dad’s — all his siblings, his sisters, they’re like so loving. And they’re so like nurturing and everything. And my mom’s family is super like that too. They’re very tight knit, you know.

02:15:22HO: Okay. What’s your relationship with your family like now?

02:15:25DOAN: Um, it’s good. I mean I barely—I don’t really see my cousins too much anymore even though they’re like right down the street. Because I’m just so busy, you know. I think they get offended sometimes that I am that busy. But I know that what I’m doing is, you know, to set myself up for more time later. So, it’s okay. You know, they’ll understand, eventually. But I’m still close to all my cousins. Like they can contact me anytime, even my cousins from France, Australia. I speak to them on a regular basis. Yeah.

02:15:58HO: That’s nice. Okay.

02:16:00DOAN: There’s a lot. They’re all over the world, so—

02:16:03HO: Mm-hmm. Cool. (pause) I want to go back to the Vietnamese American community.

02:16:17DOAN: Okay.

02:16:18HO: Do you (sighs)… Gosh…

02:16:23DOAN: (chuckles) Trying to phrase it.

02:16:25HO: Yeah! There’s just so much. And I feel like this is a really important part of this project, is to talk about identity and our relationship to the community.

02:16:34DOAN: I guess what you want to ask—the question that I think a lot about too—is whether you identify as American or Vietnamese? Right?

02:16:43HO: Mmm. Tell me.

02:16:44DOAN: Um, I consider myself Vietnamese, honestly. I don’t know about the American. I mean, I should be the most American Vietnamese American ever, being born in Michigan. But I guess it depends. Because I grew up in the United States, but I grew up around immigrants. So, are you truly a Vietnamese American when you’re surrounded by nothing but your own people? Just like in Orange County, you can survive being a Vietnamese person without knowing any English in Orange County. So, you know, I mean the rules of the land apply, but do the social and, you know, the cultural rules apply? No. So, it’s a weird—I guess it just depends. Because a Vietnamese kid in, I don’t know, Napa Valley or something is going to be more Vietnamese American than, say, me, you know. A Vietnamese person in San Jose versus, I don’t know, freaking Montana or something is going to be different as well.

02:17:50HO: Yeah.

02:17:51DOAN: Yeah.

02:17:53HO: How do you think the Vietnamese community sees you, like Vietnamese Vietnamese?

02:17:58DOAN: I think they see me as a reflection of themselves.

02:18:02HO: Okay. Tell me more.

02:18:03DOAN: Like I feel like—Okay. So, here’s an example. People think I’m Filipino, often, right? So, I always see like, you know, older Filipino women and, you know, working or something. And they ask me, “Oh, are you Filipino?” Or they’ll speak to me in Tagalog. I’m like “No. I’m not.” And then, you know, Chinese people might speak to me in Chinese and think I’m Chinese. And I’m like “No. I’m not.” And Vietnamese people the same thing. But it’s like, I feel like the true Vietnamese people see me as one of them and the Vietnamese—I’m a chameleon. So, it’s hard. Because I can fit in with both. Because when I was growing up, I grew up with, you know, the City Heights Vietnamese guys who like some of them just came over here. Some of them have only been here for like five, six years. But I also grew up with some guys from Mira Mesa that have been, their families have been here for a while. So, they’re more like Americanized. So, I don’t know. That’s kind of a hard one.

02:19:02HO: Yeah.

02:19:03DOAN: I guess I can adjust and adapt to both, you know. Because I’m super Vietnamese in the sense where I’m participating in like, you know, the Boys Scouts stuff, the Chinese Lion Dance during Tết (Tet, Vietnamese new year) stuff. And I’m always involved with like the Tet Festival and everything. But I’m Vietnamese American as a scholar, you know.

02:19:27HO: When do you feel the most like yourself? When do you feel the most at home and comfortable? Like when are you, you? Like, it might be place, certain people, setting, after a certain experience.

02:19:44DOAN: I don’t know. I guess I feel most like myself at like 1, 2 a.m. It doesn’t matter where it’s at.

02:19:49HO: Okay. Why 1 or 2 a.m.?

02:19:51DOAN: I don’t know. That’s always been my time, where I am most productive and at my peak. I don’t understand why. Ever since I was little, it’s been like that. Yeah. Like just last night, I was writing this—I have an article coming out and I finished that like at 2 in the morning. But I just had that last piece, and I’ve been waiting like two or three days to kind of get my mind in the space to write it. And I just knocked it out at 1 a.m., 2 a.m. (chuckles) Even when I tattooed, when I was tattooing at home, you know, I was trying to hide it. So, I had people come at, you know, midnight or 1 a.m. to tattoo them. Yeah. Because I couldn’t do it in the daytime all the time, because I had school. So, that’s always been like my time. My worst and my best.

02:20:42HO: Why worst?

02:20:43DOAN: Um, because, you know, late at night is when you’re alone and you have to deal with your own thoughts. And, you know, think about the past, present, future. That’s when all the pressure comes. And you’re still awake while everybody else is, you know, at peace. Yeah. But I think that that’s helped me grow more than anything. My ability to—A lot of people look at, um—Like I answered this question last night in the article, speaking about what do I do when I get overwhelmed. And those moments are usually when I get the most overwhelmed, I see them more as challenges rather than like problems, you know, like personal problems. Because I feel like if I can go over those humps, it will prepare me for the next one and the next one. It kind of callouses you and prepares you for anything the world brings at you, you know.

02:21:38HO: Okay.

02:21:39DOAN: Yeah.

02:21:41HO: It sounds to me like you are very much identified with your work, and I don’t necessarily mean your career. But like you like to produce. You’re an action-oriented person. Would you say that’s true?

02:21:58DOAN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, anything—No one can stop me when I have my head or my heart set on doing something. I’ll tell you that. And no one can tell me no. If I know what I’m going to do, I will. And it doesn’t matter how I do it. But I always get there. You know? And I can guarantee that I never put my foot through the door unless I know it’s going to happen. It’s going to work. You know. Because I’m a very careful person. So, I’m not going to waste my time. Or I’m not going to waste any time, any years, or any people’s time unless it’s something that I’m not 110% invested in, or understands, you know.

02:22:44HO: Uh-huh. Okay. That’s—I respect that. That’s like my mom, honestly. There’s nothing she cannot do. And if she decides she’s going to do it, then it’s happening. Like nothing will stop her.

02:22:55DOAN: It’s a Vietnamese work ethic. That’s my mom, too, though.

02:22:57HO: Yeah?

02:22:58DOAN: Yeah. She’ll work ‘til—I mean she’s still doing nails now. She’s like 67 years old. And she—I remember I used to have to walk her home like when I was six, seven years old. Because, well, she worked maybe like five, six blocks away. So, me and my brother sometimes would have to go get her and walk her home. Because my dad—She didn’t drive. And my dad was like drinking somewhere, I don’t know. So, she would call us. We’d have to go get her, walk her home and all that. And when my brother left, I would have to do it myself. I would have to like skip Halloweens and everything just to do that for her, too. And, you know, she did that every day. She walked to work every day, walked home. And on Fridays, she would clean the house by herself. Clean the bathroom. I would help her. And there was this one night I’ll never forget. I think I was like eight years old. She was sitting on the bed after she got done cleaning the mirrors, and she was like “Oh, I’m so like dizzy.” And I was like “What the heck?” And I thought she was messing around, and she was just laying there on the bed. And I was like “What’s going on?” And I thought she was kidding or faking it. So, I started jumping on the—I was a kid, and I was jumping the bed, and I was like “Wake up, mom” or whatever. And she wouldn’t wake up. And I don’t know what got into me but like automatically I just had that instinct to help her. So, I went to go get some eucalyptus oil or something and I put it in her nose, and some on her stomach. And all of a sudden, she woke up. So, like she was so tired that she like passed out, you know what I mean. And that’s not the first time. She got sick so many times. And she got the flu really bad once when I was about ten years old. And she needed to go to the hospital. And I was scared. I was so young. So, she told me to call—Or she told me to call my brother. At the time, he just had a pager, and he was in the mountains. So, he couldn’t get it. So, I was like “What do I do?” So, I had to call 9-1-1, right? So, I called 9-1-1 and I told them everything. I talked to them for like ten, fifteen minutes. And then my dad came home. And he was drunk, of course. So, he was mad that it was going to be inconvenient for him to go to the hospital or pay for the ambulance or whatever it may have been. So, yeah. So, I was just in the car with him, going there. And he was more worried about him getting a DUI than anything. But yeah. She was pretty bad. She was really sick. She came home, I think, a day after that and it got worse again. So, my brother luckily was at home by the time that he took her. But that was kind of when my brother got fed up with my dad and his stuff. And he wrote him this long letter. I remember seeing it. It was in Vietnamese, basically telling him if he doesn’t get his act together, then my brother is going to take me away. You know what I mean? So, I guess he took that seriously because, you know, it was better for a little bit. But then it got worse again. And that’s when me and my dad started bumping heads, like crazy.

02:26:13HO: And how old were you-ish?

02:26:15DOAN: Like eleven, twelve. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I fought my dad when I was twelve. Yeah. And he was so out of it, he didn’t—he doesn’t even remember any of it. Except for like the next day he kind of like with what my mom told him or something. But I remember that night, me and my mom went to my aunt’s house, and she was just talking to her about how she thinks I was like so fed up and I couldn’t take any more and just went crazy, you know, ‘cause I was sick that day and he wasn’t there, you know. So, yeah. That’s when everything changed between me and my dad after that day.

02:26:53HO: What do you mean it changed?

02:26:55DOAN: He just looked at me different. I looked at him different, you know. I saw him as more of an enemy than anything, and he didn’t see me as his son anymore. So, I don’t know. Even when I got arrested that one time, he was just like “Oh, just let him, you know, go to jail.” And all that. But, even after my mom left—that’s why I said when my mom did leave, it was very—it took a lot for me to stay because of all that history, you know, which sucks because when I was younger, I remember he was great. He was the one at home taking care of me everyday and—Because that’s when not a lot of his friends were over here yet, you know. My uncles weren’t here yet. And when he got back on that cycle of nhậu (nhau, drinking and socializing) all the time, it just, it got bad.

02:27:46HO: Did it ever get better?

02:27:47DOAN: Yeah. It’s better now.

02:27:48HO: Okay.

02:27:49DOAN: I mean, honestly, that fight between me and my dad was the best and the worst thing that could happen, you know. Because he finally—I feel bad about it to this day, and I feel guilty because, you know, the way we see our parents is like you’re supposed to respect them and all of the above. But, you know, there comes a point where you just have to cut it. So, yeah, I think it was—it gave him a reality check that, you know, he’s not invincible and he’s not going to keep doing the same thing over and over without nothing happening. So, me getting in that fight with him, my mom leaving, everything at the same time kind of, it just piled up, you know. He started to drink a lot less. And, you know, when I say something he like listens to me now. (laughs)

02:28:39HO: Yeah. That’s something.

02:28:41DOAN: Because I’m rational. At the end of the day, you know, like my parents have always told me that even though my brother’s like a doctor and everything, they always tell me like I have the most potential, because I kind of, I raised myself, you know. So, whenever they need something, they ask me. Whenever they need something to get done, they ask me. My dad was diagnosed with cancer two or three years ago, and I kind of guided him through that whole thing. He's in remission now today. But yeah, that was an interesting time too. It made me realize like how precious time really is, you know. He didn’t want to come up to Temecula to live with me, so he stayed in Mira Mesa. But I try to see him once a week or so.

02:29:26HO: You come down to Mira Mesa?

02:29:28DOAN: Yeah. So, on the way home, I’ll like stop by there or something.

02:29:31HO: Okay.

02:29:33DOAN: Mm-hmm. But, you know, it is weird. As your parents get older, they always want to see you. And, you know, when you’re young, you’re just kind of like passing by all the time.

02:29:40HO: Yeah.

02:29:41DOAN: Mm-hmm.

02:29:43HO: Yeah. I feel like that’s the difference between being a kid and being an adult, is when you realize how important that relationship is, even if it’s difficult.

02:29:51DOAN: Yeah. And like it or not, you are a reflection of some of those characteristics that your parents hold. I mean, me and my dad, we’re like—Okay, I’m stubborn like my mom. I’m determined all the time like my mom. And, you know, I don’t take no like an answer for her. But I’m also like calm in a way like my dad. I’m always nice, smiling. He’s a very—He was great with like paperwork. He kept all the bills organized and everything. And that kind of helps me with the whole OCD thing. But yeah, he’s always been good in that regard. But my mom was really bad at spending money. I didn’t get that from her. And my dad was the opposite, you know. So, I believe I took on the best qualities of both of them. Yeah. Hopefully. (laughs)

02:30:46HO: I assume they never said they’re proud of you.

02:30:50DOAN: No. That’s not—It took me a—Like I had to pull teeth to get my dad to even come to my graduation, my high school graduation. So—Because they’re just so used to it. You know, my brother, he ran the Lion Dance group for so long and he never came out to his show. He—It was always me showing up to his stuff. Like he’s done—he used to sing. He used to do theater stuff for VSA (Vietnamese Student Association) at UCSD (University of California, San Diego). They’ve never been to any of that, you know. But now I feel like my dad is more in tune. Every time I have like a TV interview or something, he wants to watch it or share it with his friends or whatever. So, he’s finally at a point where he’s like “Okay, cool.” But, yeah, they never—I don’t know. Maybe they were just so used to me and my brother doing crazy things that they’re not fazed by it. (laughs) You know what I mean?

02:31:50HO: Do you—So, I did like some theater type stuff when I was a kid. And my parents didn’t come to that either. And I don’t know—Do you think on some—Is that a Vietnamese thing? Is that an Asian thing? Like for parents to not—

02:32:02DOAN: I think it’s an Asian thing. Because I got A’s all my life. That doesn’t mean—I didn’t get awarded for any of that. It’s an expectation. You know what I mean? But it’s because they—especially for Vietnamese parents who just came over here, they expect everything to be easier than it is over there. But they don’t really have a true sense of a comparison. Because they’re not—They didn’t go through this, you know? They only went through that. So, you know, they’re just basing it on what they hear and, you know, overall like the—they’re comparing a way of life to a way of living, I guess you could say. I don’t know. Like a new way of living. But it’s definitely very different. The, what do you call it? The social temperature is different. Everything is different here.

02:33:03HO: Do you have any thoughts on the social relationship between the Asian community and the Black community?

02:33:15DOAN: Do I have what?

02:33:16HO: Do you have any thoughts on that, observations? I’m leaving it open-ended.

02:33:21DOAN: Okay. Well, I’ve been —I’ve heard a lot of things, but I haven’t experienced. I know that they, the Asian community, wanted to support the Black community during the whole George Floyd thing. I even got asked to speak at a George Floyd event which I did not accept. But—Because I didn’t think it was proper for me to—It had nothing to do with me, you know? But I’ve worked with a lot of, you know, Black non-profits and stuff. And they’re great. We support each other and everything. I guess it just depends on which area you’re in. You know? I don’t think they should be going against each other. I don’t—But I also hear that they’re not supporting our movement as much as we supported theirs. But I don’t think that applies to every city or anything. I think they just—Whatever is popular on the news today. And if—you know, we’re going to take what we can get. And if people were only reporting on Black on Asian crime or Asian on Black crime or whatever, that’s all we’re going to hear. I don’t necessarily—I don’t know. I think it’s—I don’t think it should be a conversation that includes only Asians and Blacks but Hispanics and everyone as well, you know what I mean? I think whenever there’s a problem, we should all get together and figure it out. Whether—Even—The white community suffers from the same, you know, poverty and everything as we do. Some of them do, right? So, why is it fair to exclude them when it comes to things like that. When it comes to fighting for like, you know, your healthcare and taxes and all that. Why is it like that? That’s why in my non-profit, I try not to—I didn’t want to exclude anybody. It’s not just for Asians or just for Blacks or Hispanics. It’s for everybody. I’m not going to say no to a white kid just because he’s not a minority. It doesn’t make sense, right? Because then they’ll become the new minority, right? So, that’s what I truly believe. It bothers me that every time, a lot of times, when people refer to my non-profit, they refer to it as, kind of like what you said earlier. Like they refer to what they want it to be. So, they would say like, “Oh. It’s an Asian non-profit.” Or it’s a non-profit for Hispanics on the border or something. And why does it have to be that, though, you know? It’s more like a headline thing than what it really means. So, yeah, at the end of the day, I don’t know, we should all stick together somehow. It’s hard because it’s so competitive in a way, I guess. Even with Asians. Asian non-profits I’ve worked with in the past, they’re oddly competitive when they are working towards the same goal, which is weird.

02:36:52HO: I’ve heard that even just about Vietnamese non-profits, like down in the City Heights area, that I’m talking to. There’s so much like in-fighting.

02:36:59DOAN: Yeah. But you know what’s weird? The non-profits that I work with, the community partners that support me the most, they’re all in Orange County. And they barely even know me, you know what I mean? But they share my stuff. They help me out. They work with each other. Everything is kind of like—

02:37:20HO: Is it—Is that a coincidence?

02:37:21DOAN: I don’t know. It’s weird because you think they’d be more competitive. Because there’s nothing but Asians up there, right? I don’t know. Maybe it’s competition to stand out in San Diego. Right? Because there’s so few that any time a new one pops up, you know they’re like oh, they’re going to take care of everybody. You know what I mean? But as long as everyone does a different thing, they can do whatever they want. If you’re going for the same goal, you might as well just like (makes a coming together upward sweep with his hands) unite. (chuckles)

02:37:48HO: Yeah. I agree. That’s how I feel about all the different like storytelling type initiatives. Like they’re all good. We need more if anything.

02:37:56DOAN: You need a different approach and you just—you can have different approaches for your audience. And you’ll attract different audiences. You know? But like yeah. I mean there’s a lot of podcasts that focus on one people and one people alone. And that’s great but you’re limiting yourself to other stories that could change your perspective like that. I’m a very open like—I try to be as well-rounded as possible. I try to understand everybody, where they come from, their values. I’m not—I don’t know. I used to be all about Viet pride ‘til I die type of deal. I used to hang out with nothing but Vietnamese gangsters. We used to, you know, pick on people that weren’t Vietnamese and hate on people that weren’t and, you know, protect our own. All the guys that just came here from Vietnam I would like take care of them. But as I grew up, I realized we all need each other, you know. Whether you’re Vietnamese or not. My wife, her family is—I’m like the only Asian in-law. You know? She’s Laotian, but all her brothers and sisters are married to non-Asians pretty much. And ironically, I’m the only Asian. So, that was like kind of weird for me. It was like “Whoa. This is different.” You know? Because my family is primarily, you know—my sister-in-law is Vietnamese, all my cousins. Well, I have one cousin that his wife is French. But same thing, you know? (chuckles) So, there’s pretty much just French and Vietnamese people. Yeah. And then I have a Black cousin that was adopted by my aunt in France back then. So, my family has always been pretty like essentially an open book. Accept anyone, you know. We don’t have nothing to hide. We love when new people come around so we can share like our food, culture, all that. Yeah.

02:40:00HO: That’s nice.

02:40:02DOAN: Mm-hmm. Because, you know, we grew up, especially in San Diego, we grew up in a melting pot. So, it’s not like we’re in freaking Utah or something. Then that’s like a different ballgame. Um, but yeah. We’re lucky. Pretty soon, I’m pretty sure every state will be similar.

02:40:18HO: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely.

02:40:20DOAN: Yeah. (nods)

02:40:23HO: Okay. Thank you for sharing.

02:40:24DOAN: What else? (laughs)

02:40:25HO: Um, I have more questions. How are you feeling energy-wise?

02:40:27DOAN: No, I’m good. I’m good. Yeah.

02:40:28HO: You’re good? Okay. Tell me about the non-profit (The Doan Foundation).

02:40:36DOAN: Okay. So, it started—I started it August of 2022.

02:40:43HO: Oh. It’s really new.

02:40:44DOAN: Mm-hmm. So, I kept replaying something my dad told me when I was just—I think I was just taking him out to eat. And he—Obviously, my brother’s successful. I guess I’m successful now too. So, you know, he was just telling me like he’s glad that me and my brother have figured out that we made something of ourselves. Because, you know, he had cancer at the time. So, he was just like, you know, “If I pass away, like I wish I had something to give you guys, but I don’t.” And, you know, my dad has been struggling—Like he’s been working for, what, since 1993, pretty much the same company and, you know, getting paid through retirement. With all that hard work, he’s just making like $1,000 a month. How are you going to live on that, right? So, you know, he’s frustrated with that. He’s like “What am I going to do with this. Like I can’t even afford rent with this amount, you know.” And he just was venting to me. So, I realized like—It made me reflect on why our families came here in the first place, to give their kids a better life which he succeeded in. You know what I mean? You know, so, I told myself, you know, it’s pretty amazing that a family that came over here with literally nothing and grew up on freaking welfare and Section 8 and eating government cheese and, you know, cereal box samples, can get to a place like this. So, I wanted to create an organization where I could, I guess, motivate other kids who were in the same position as I was to do more. Or motivate their parents to realize that they can give that to their children just through, you know, being persistent and giving them a stable environment to grow up in. So, at first, I just wanted to do some scholarships. Because I was donating money yearly to just random non-profits. But I caught myself thinking about where this money was actually going, and I just—(shrugs shoulders) You don’t know, right? So, I was like “Okay, I got to do it myself.” And that’s my problem. Every time I have an idea, I just implement it immediately. So, I told my wife one night, it was like “You know what? I’m going to start a non-profit.” And she was like “Okay.” She’s not surprised anymore until like I actually do it. And the next day I did it. So, I put in the paperwork and everything. And then I just got going. I wasn’t going to do anything big. It was just going to be me pretty much funding it. Every year maybe some donor or something will want to. But I wasn’t trying to promote it or make it big or anything. But one of my friends, one of my older friends, he’s been working in the sector for over thirty years. So, he was like “You need help with anything, let me know. Just ask me, you know.” So, I have too much pride. So, I like, like I said, I like learning everything myself before I even ask the question. I don’t want to sound stupid; you know. So, when I did need some confirmation on things, I finally called him. I told him what’s going on. I showed him the website. He looked at everything and he’s like “Dude, everything looks good.” He’s like “What do you need help with?” I’m like “I don’t know. You need to tell me.” Anyway, it’s been like that for a while, and I was telling him like “I just want to give away a few scholarships and then just go from there and build it up slowly.” He’s like “Then why do it at all?” So, at that point, I was like that’s true. I’m not known as the guy to go soft on anything, you know? I’m very all or nothing. So, I was like “alright.” So, he made the offer. So, I made him my chair, or I was going to make him my chair, okay? And then, he introduced me to a few people. And that’s when I met Thảo (Thao). So, Thảo Hà (Thao Ha). And it took a while, like four dinners, but she finally said she wanted to be a part of it, and she wanted to be chair. So, she became chair and then my other friend, he’s vice-chair and so forth. So, now that I have other people involved, now I have to go all in, right? So, I had to navigate my way strategically. There’s a lot of grants and stuff that aren’t available to non-profits that have been established under a year. So, I found out that the hard way after looking a lot. So, I had to rely on individual donors. So, I didn’t realize how many people I knew or how many businesses I know. And I kind of reached out to everybody. And we’ve raised like over $30,000 so far. It’s only been about six months. Yeah. And I funded ten scholarships already.

02:45:55HO: Oh, my goodness!

02:45:56DOAN: And I’m getting—The kids are going to get chosen on April 1st. Yeah. So, at the moment, I’m just focusing on southern California because I don’t feel—I would love to do all of California. But it just makes things less, I guess you could say, personal. I want to do more of like the kids in your backyard, kind of deal, you know. I respect organizations that are trying to solve global problems like world hunger. But I don’t feel like there’s an immediate resolution to that, you know. I wanted to do something that would affect these teenagers immediately, so they could like move on and take the next step. It’s more like a—It’s a pedestal. That’s what the “foundation” in Foundation stands for. Like you being the foundation for their futures. It’s not a family Foundation, you know. Because people use the terms interchangeably. So, sometimes people get confused. But, yeah, that’s what I mean when I say “foundation.” And yeah, I mean, hopefully we can do crazy things. I’m a guy with really crazy ideas. So, we’ll see what happens. But I really want to do something that’s related to the arts but includes every culture you can think of in one, you know. Have you ever been to the Multicultural Fair? In San Diego? In Linda Vista?

02:47:27HO: No.

02:47:28DOAN: They have it once a year. But it’s just like a little street fair thing. It’s very, really small. When I was young, I used to think it was huge. But, you know, it’s just food and some stuff. But I want to do that like on steroids. In the Convoy district somehow.

02:47:43HO: Like in a multicultural fair?

02:47:46DOAN: Mm-hmm. I want there to be like—I want them to shut down the streets and have a stage there for all different performers, every culture, all the food, different foods you can think of and all that. And kids could come and enjoy it, probably like during Christmas time or something, you know? But I want to do something like that for the city in the near future. (chuckles) But it’s a crazy undertaking.

02:48:13HO: Have you spoken to the API (Asian Pacific Islander) Coalition?

03:47:16DOAN: Mmm, I don’t think so.

03:47:18HO: Okay. I can connect you if you want to but it’s basically the San Diego Asian API.

03:47:23DOAN: Okay. There’s so many in San Diego that are named like different that are similar. But Nam from the Convoy district just sponsored our event. So, I know he is connected with that area.

03:48:38HO: Okay.

03:48:40DOAN: So, I don’t know. I’ll figure it out. But I’m trying to get everyone together to do something basically. I think it should be good.

03:48:47HO: Is it Nam from Viet Vote?

03:48:49DOAN: I don’t know. He owns Cross Street Chicken and Beer.

03:48:54HO: Oh, okay. Maybe not the same. I don’t know. Okay. I mean that’s a common name, so—

03:48:58DOAN: But my friend Nguyet was in Viet Vote.

03:49:00HO: Who?

03:49:01DOAN: Nguyệt (Nguyet). You don’t know Nguyệt Phạm (Nguyet Pham) ?

03:49:04HO: I’ve never heard of him. Um, there’s also the—Well, we can talk about this more offline. But there’s also the Oceanside Southern California API Festival coming up next month. I’m on the planning committee for that.

03:49:16DOAN: Sick.

03:49:17HO: So, there’s always opportunities to talk to event planners.

03:49:22DOAN: Yeah. I like to go to different—I mean, I would love to have the time. But I like going to all these different events just to see what’s going on, you know what I mean? Where people are doing different—turnout, how people absorb it. I have—I’ve been to a lot of different types of charity events from different cultures. And different initiatives, whether it comes to health or whatever. And it’s all really, really different. For say the really Vietnamese charities, super unorganized. But they always meet their goal. Right? Because everyone knows that they’re there to give money and eat and dance, whatever, sing or whatever. You know, I’ve been to a Japanese one. It was a little more strict, a little more Americanized. It was just too professional in a way. You know what I mean? There was no personal touch to it, like a sense of family. And then, you know, I’ve been to events. The events are different here and Orange County too, very different vibe. And I’m about to go to one hosted by the Ronald McDonald House Charities, which is going to be like the most off-the-wall one that I’m going to be going to. Because it’s super different, you know. There’s this one side for medical purpose for kids, and—

03:50:55HO: I used to be a camp counselor for them.

03:50:57DOAN: Yeah. And their organization has been there for forever. And they were super cool with me when I did the toy drive thing with them over Christmas. And you can feel peoples like intentions or ingenuity, you know. When I walked in there, no one talked to me different, anything, you know. We had a full conversation. They were the ones who I talked to a lot about—Because I have a problem with exploitation of—You know, on social media you see those videos where somebody will give like homeless people money and all that.

03:51:36HO: Yeah. They’re filming themselves giving.

03:51:37DOAN: Yeah. I don’t like that. But I understand now because of those women at the Ronald McDonald Foundation. Because I told them, when they told me to take a picture in front of the sign or whatever, I’m like “Ah, I don’t need to.” You know? Like it’s not important to me. And she’s like “You have to.” Like why? And she’s like “Because you have to show other people and lead by example. And if you don’t show them, give them the visual on this, then they’re not going to want to give to me or you.” You know what I mean? So, people need that motivator in order to do it. Because there will always be more people inspired by it than are disgusted by it, I guess you could say. So, at that point, I was like “Oh, okay, I’ll take a picture.” (both laugh). Yeah. But, um, yeah, it gave me a different perspective, you know? Because I give people money all the time. But I don’t, you know—I’m not going to write on Facebook like “Oh yeah. It was a good day. I gave this person $100.” Whatever, you know. Yeah, I hate that. (laughs) I hate it a lot. So, where were we going with that?

03:52:45HO: Uh, we were talking about—You were telling me about the Foundation.

03:52:49DOAN: The Foundation. Okay. So, yeah, I mean I’ve already had people try to ask me to implement programs at local elementary, middle schools. But I haven’t the slightest clue how—that’s not my field. You know what I mean? I’m sure I can make it happen. But at the moment, I just want to focus on teenagers because that’s what I know. What are—The life that they’re going through, the struggles and everything, I can relate to that most because I was—you know, that wasn’t too long ago for me. Versus I don’t know how the curriculum is in middle schools now. I don’t know how to deal with kids that age. Um, yeah. I was like crazy when I was that age. So, I don’t know. But I do want an, when I do expand, you know, education committee and all that. Hopefully we get there. You know, I’ve always had this weird—Like I guess I second guess myself a lot with, you know, whether—I second guessed whether the organization was going to get anywhere. Or whether people were confused? Or dissuaded by the name? Or the—how the mission wasn’t as romantic as these other ones, whatever. But now I’m finally content with the fact that I’m doing what I know is right and what I’m leaving and, you know, just hope that people are on the same page as me, you know.

03:54:21HO: Do you feel like you’ve found your people? Who understand the Foundation?

03:54:25DOAN: Yeah, yeah. I mean it’s the first year and you never know. Of course, everyone’s going to support you. I mean, that’s not true actually. But people want to support you on that first year. And if you do well, then they’ll keep doing it. If you mess up, then you’ll never see them again. So, I mean, it’s been six months and I’ve done okay. So, we’ll see what happens. But anyone that knows me knows that they can trust me and knows that if I do something, it’s going to be the right way. You know what I mean?

03:54:58HO: Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say that too. I’m sure you just have to decide and then you’ll just make it happen.

03:55:02DOAN: Yeah. Yeah. Luckily, everyone came together for this and, you know, most people are donating like DJ services, photography, whatever. So, there’s a lot of community getting together for this which is cool.

03:55:16HO: That’s great. And the scholarships. Tell me more. Like are these like scholarships for the teenagers to go to college to study art? Or—

03:55:24DOAN: My scholarships actually can be used for like barber school if they want. Yeah. Or any type of technical school. Because a lot of the kids in these neighborhoods, sometimes they don’t have the option or the time to, you know, put all their focus into their studies in high school. Sometimes they have to start working at fifteen, sixteen years old because they’ve got to take care of their family. Or they might need like a $500 scholarship to get an airplane to fly to South Carolina where they’ll be going to school. You know? They might not be able to afford that. Or they might have to help their parents with the one last phone bill or something before they can go off and do their thing. You know? So, that’s what a lot of other scholarship funds, programs, they don’t think about. They don’t think about these other jobs that—like becoming a barber, you know. No one thinks about that. But, you know, you go through a little bit of school and it’ll provide you something to, you know, a tool to use for the rest of your life. Where you can always go back to it if you want to and it can be a very prosperous career if you put your head into it, yeah, just like doing nails. I mean there’s no school for becoming a tattoo artist but, you know—

03:56:45HO: Oh. There’s no school for becoming a tattoo artist. I never thought about that.

03:56:49DOAN: Well, technically no. There are here and there. They’re trying to pop up. But they’re very frowned upon. Because it’s literally like a few weeks course or something. And you’ve got to pay a lot of money for it and what do you really learn, you know? I wouldn’t say they hazed apprentices back then, but it was much more difficult. And the caliber that you had to reach was a lot higher than it is now. You know what I mean? Very hard to get into the industry back then, but easy to stand out. And now it’s easy to get in, hard to stand out. Because everyone’s trying to get into it. I’m just lucky I’m like grandfathered in, at this point. I was like the last generation of like the original, like old dudes. Yeah.

03:57:42HO: Does that mean you’re an old dude?

03:57:43DOAN: No. (Ho laughs) But most of them were. I was so young. That’s what gave me the advantage. You know, I had more time to grow. A lot of those guys now that had tattooed in the ‘90s, early 2000s, they kind of—they never changed their ways. They never caught up with the times. They’re just so stuck in their old ways and they’re so stubborn that, you know, they just inevitably—their careers just take a dive.

03:58:16HO: When you say, “stuck in their old ways,” do you mean like in terms of like technical skills?

03:58:20DOAN: Mm-hmm. That, technology has changed. The tools have changed. You know, you’re not going to catch a 60-year-old tattoo artist posting on social media every day, right? Yeah. I mean that’s where your portfolio is. That’s where everything is now. You’ve got to interact with your customers. If you’re rude or something, it’s going to immediately go on Yelp. And it’s hard. It is really hard for them. Yeah, I have guys I looked up to back then that they’re just—they still—they’re actually tattooing worse now than they used to because, you know, I feel like they’re trying to catch up to these younger guys, their styles and everything, that they just end up losing their own style. And I don’t know, it sucks. But that’s just the way it is now. Either you survive, or you don’t. You know what I mean? But I guess the older guys, their hustler’s mentality was a lot more prominent than the kids now. I don’t think the kids that are getting into it—They’re not built as hard as the tattoo artists that grew up back then. That’s why they’re able to stay in the industry for so long, you know. A lot of kids now, it’s so easy for them to learn how to do it on YouTube, whatever. And then they’ll just give up if they get bored or something. They never really stick with it.

03:59:48HO: Okay.

03:59:49DOAN: And then, another thing is back then you didn’t really have any tattoo artists that were like art students in college or something. And now, you have people just graduating out of college and they’re like crazy phenomenal because, you know, they went to art school rather than tattoo school underground somewhere in the basement. Yeah. So, they were frowned upon for a while too. Because it’s like the same thing with the military when people that graduate and become automatically like officers in the Navy or something. And you’ve got other guys who have been there since they were 18 years old and working their way up. Same deal. I mean, I don’t really care. Like if you’re talented, you’re talented. I’ll teach you, you know?

04:00:29HO: Okay.

04:00:30DOAN: Yeah.

04:00:31HO: So, do you like providing mentorship?

04:00:33DOAN: Um, I did for a while. I just took on my last apprentice. She just got done two months ago. I’m not going to teach anyone else for a while. Yeah. Because it takes up a lot of my time and I don’t feel like it’s fair to take someone on if I don’t have the time to do it. Or my full attention, you know. Yeah. And a lot of people are going—they’re like charging to teach people now. Whereas before, you just earned it. It’s free. They just had to put in the work, like throw out the trash and all that. It's like a full-ride scholarship. But then now, yeah, a lot of artists are charging for apprenticeships which I still don’t agree with that, you know. Yeah.

04:01:19HO: So, then, if somebody wanted to become a tattoo artist, really all they need to do is find a mentor who will let them apprentice.

04:01:26DOAN: Yep. And before, it was like one in a million. Now, as long as you have money, you just pay somebody, and they’ll teach you. You know, so it makes—it dilutes the industry a little bit. But I believe if you’re going to—you know, if your work is good enough, you’re always going to stand out. Right? Yeah, but people like Photoshopping fake tattoos online and stuff now too. So, it makes it really weird. Yeah, so people have a unrealistic expectation sometimes of how a tattoo should look, how it should be done. They watch these shows, and they think that’s exactly how it’s going to be. Or the drama and all that. But, I don’t know. I guess the good thing is society doesn’t frown on it anymore, even in Asia. I heard Vietnam has a bunch of tattoo shops now.

04:02:17HO: Yeah. I’ve heard that too.

04:02:19DOAN: Yeah. So, that’s a good thing for the industry itself. Because before it was nothing but—people just looked at it as bikers, gangsters, and basically all the bad people in the world was a tattooed people, you know.

04:02:38HO: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds very different now.

04:02:41DOAN: Mm-hmm. Even you have tattoos. (laughs)

04:02:44HO: Even I do! Um, okay (pause) I have like six more questions. But like we’ve been sitting here a while, so I don’t want to wear you out completely.

04:02:57DOAN: What’s the questions?

04:02:58HO: Tell me—I want to know how you’ve grown. Like what are some big lessons you’ve learned? And I don’t necessarily mean from childhood to adulthood. But it could be within the last week, or within the last decade. Like how have you grown? You’ve grown a lot because of what you went through as a kid, but —

04:03:20DOAN: I don’t know. That’s a hard question. I guess I’ve learned not to expect anything from anybody, you know. For example, okay, let’s say you’re my apprentice today. You’re my student, okay? Let’s say I help you grow. I help you, you know, establish this career for yourself that’s going to help you out for the rest of your life. And you’re doing that with me. I’m helping you for two years and then you’re finally done, right? My—Most people would say, “Oh, oh you owe me. I did this for you. And, you know, you’ve got to work for me for this amount of years and I’m going to ruin you if you leave.” All that stuff. But that’s not me. You know, I was able to see that from a third person point of view while seeing my business partner think that way of my employees, you know. So, I’m glad that I was able to see that because, basically, you know, people grow, and people move on. You can’t expect somebody to be there no matter what. And, basically, it’d be detrimental to their own success just because they feel they owe you something? It doesn’t make sense. So, I’m glad I learned that early on because that’s helped me a lot in dealing with artists that work for me and respecting them and understanding that nothing is forever, you know. And you’ve always got to be ready for them to grow. And that’s fine. And you should be there to help them grow rather than, you know, rather than step down on them. And, you know, as long as you put that energy out there, everything goes good, you know. And people don’t want to stay because they’re forced to. They want to stay because they want to, right? That applies to everything, relationships, you know, everything.

04:05:33HO: I guess, when you’re talking throughout this whole time, and when I met you, I get a sense of contentment as you said, but also confidence in your future, because of these bricks that you’re laying out. Like you seem very confident that everything will turn out the way it should.

04:05:50DOAN: Yes.

04:05:51HO: Does that feel right to you? Or do you still doubt?

04:05:54DOAN: Mmm, yes and no. But even if I doubt myself, I’m a problem solver. So, I don’t—My wife always tells me like “Oh, you won’t tell me what you’re going through.” Or whatever. I’d say because if I don’t have a solution, then there’s no point in talking about it. Because talking about it is not going to make me come to the solution. I’d rather use the time worrying about it to come up with a way to solve it. You know, I’m very–I’m good at compartmentalizing my thoughts. So, that’s why I can work on like thirty things at the same time and I’m fine. Whereas other people would go freaking crazy, right. But I’m used to that because I’ve always been so interested in so many things. And I’ve always told people as a tattoo artist, it was really hard for me to be good at the beginning stages because I was trying to do everything. Because the artists now, they specialize in one thing and one thing only. Like, you know, one guy might be a portrait artist, but he might suck with line work or something. One guy might do American traditional tattoos and he sucks at shading. One guy does Asian work, and he has no clue how to do like very fine line stuff. And, you know, that path for them was the correct path for them. And it might have only taken them a year or two, whatever, if that’s all they were doing. Whereas me, I was trying to do lettering, Chicano work, Asian work, realism. I was trying to do all of it at the same time in a parallel fashion, so, it took me a lot longer to master all of them at the same time. That’s the same way I am for business, like trying to navigate my tattoo business. Trying to navigate my clothing line. Helping my wife with her beauty line. Doing a non-profit. (laughs) And, yeah, doing everything else too. So, it’s definitely crazy. But, you know, I encounter problems here and there and little hiccups. But I work through it. I solve it, you know. There’s no point in—I just feel like people waste too much time worrying about things that haven’t happened or may not ever happen. Yeah. There’s no time, basically. Time is the most precious thing that you have. You can’t get it back. You can’t make more of it. Yep. So, people ask me why I stay up so late every day. Why I wake up so early. Why I’m doing so much. And honestly, it’s because I’m already—I’m turning 33. So, I only have maybe, I don’t know, fifteen years before my business dies down a little bit, maybe popularity. So, I have to make my mark now to buy myself more years. You know what I mean?

04:08:43HO: Yeah. Yeah, you’re investing in future you, it sounds like.

04:08:47DOAN: Yep.

04:08:48HO: Okay. Going back to the styles of art, is there any style or anything that you wish you could do more of? I mean, I’ve seen what you get a lot of.

04:09:09DOAN: Mmm, not really. I mean, I like to do everything. That’s the problem. That’s why my waiting list is so long. I take on every project that comes to me. It’s really rare where I’ll say “Aw, I can’t do it.”

04:09:10HO: Why would you say no to someone?

04:09:12DOAN: If it’s like a dumb idea, or one that—Like I had a guy come in one time. And—it was a white guy—he had a consultation with me. He wanted a Buddha tattooed on him, right? And he was wearing like a cross necklace, so I knew he wasn’t Buddhist. But he wanted a Buddha tattoo on him, and I asked him where he wanted it. And he said on his leg. And I’m like “You can’t get it on your leg. It’s like disrespectful.” And he said he wanted bud leaves like around it, like marijuana leaves. And I’m like “Okay.” (laughs) Like that makes no sense. And I’m like “I don’t know if I’m the right guy for you, for that.” But, yeah, usually, you know, it’s hard because if you say no, then you’re rejecting a customer. And if you say yes, then you’re going against your own like morals. So, the only thing I can do is drive them away with my price. So, I told him I was going to charge him like $3,000 or something. And he said no. That’s it.

04:10:13HO: Okay.

04:10:14DOAN: So, it doesn't make me the bad guy. But that’s how you turn those things. But yeah. Ideas like that. Or people want to get each other’s names and they’ve only been together for like a week. I don’t do those.

04:10:25HO: Do people ask you for that?

04:10:26DOAN: Yeah. Yeah. But I usually make them wait, wait about two years. And I’ll give them like a ridiculous price too, you know. For them to think about it a second time. Usually, they break up within the next few months. (Ho laughs) Yeah. It happens a lot.

04:10:43HO: Oh my god.

04:10:44DOAN: Yep. That’s why we don’t take walk-ins. Because people make those irrational decisions, you know.

04:10:48HO: Mmm. Okay. Yeah.

04:10:51DOAN: (chuckles) We’re responsible.

04:10:53HO: Right. This is going to be a weird question. But you’re pretty open about your past. And you’re writing this memoir. It’s going to be published.

04:11:09DOAN: Yeah.

04:11:10HO: And your family knows that you share all this info.

04:11:16DOAN: Mmm, I don’t know. I don’t know if they’re even interested. That’s the weird thing. I mean, they know that I do interviews and articles and stuff. But they’re just kind of like—Like I said. It’s nothing new to them. In their brain, they’re just like “Oh, yeah. He’s doing that. That’s cool.” You know. I guess they just don’t get excited about anything. So, I don’t even know. I don’t think my brother knows I’m writing a book. But I actually don’t want my family to read my book because it’s going to—I mean, I know what it’s about. I know how it’s going to affect them. But they don’t know that yet. And like if they read it, it’s going to mess them up, you know. Because it’s not like a blame game, type of calling people out thing. It’s just–it’s the truth, you know. And I’ve never told the truth in a very raw way, like I’m going to do in there. I’ve always kind of like made it more from a broad statement or gave people little details here and there. But that thing—what I’m writing is pretty much uncut, all the way. Yeah. It was pretty crazy to write it. Because I haven’t—Some of the thoughts that I wrote about in there, I haven’t thought about it for, you know, twenty or thirty years. Not thirty years, but twenty, twenty-five years or so. So, it was weird. I even had to stop midway because it was too much for me. Like overwhelming wise. So, I stopped. I haven’t written in it. I haven’t written for about eight months. Yeah. I had my editor edit what I have so far, though. And I haven’t even looked at that yet. I’m just kind of like—I’m all over the place right now. But I feel like when the time is right, I’m going to sit down and finish it, you know. Because the half-book that I wrote which is already 35,000 words or something, I wrote all that within like two weeks. And that’s it. Yeah. So, whenever I get that urge again to do it, I’m pretty sure I’m just going to knock it out.

04:13:20HO: So, what gives you that urge, that motivation?

04:13:24DOAN: I don’t know. That’s the weird thing. Yeah. I just kind of know when the time is right, you know. Yeah, it’s weird. I guess when everything else kind of settles down, I’ll be able to focus my thoughts more on that. Because right now, I’m doing like these news interview articles in—and it’s all kind of similar themed. So, I’m having to use my words and my energy to do those interviews. And then, by the time I’m ready to write my book, I can’t really—you know, I don’t want to keep repeating because I get bored easily. So, if I keep repeating that same thought like all week, I’ll be like when I’m writing it, I’m going to feel bored. Therefore, I feel like my reader is going to feel bored. But, I mean, I know that’s not the case. Because the reader has never read it before. But, you know, that’s like me making freaking boiled eggs every day for three days, you know. It’s—If I’m not interested in it, I’m not going to want to make it interesting or sound interesting. And I end up going back and changing everything anyway. I’m very hard on myself.

04:14:34HO: Well, yeah. Yeah. You are.

04:14:36DOAN: Yeah. (chuckles) I’m super particular. So, everything has to be perfect or close to perfect, pretty much. Because people—growing up, people always expected the worst from me, you know what I mean? Or the minimum, because of what I went through. So, now everything that I do has to go above and beyond what people expect. Right? And that’s that pressure, especially the pressure that your parents kind of—They kind of like instill that in you, growing up here in America. So, yeah.

04:15:11HO: You do a lot of giving. Like you do things for your community. You give money. You do interviews like this or with the news outlets or whatever. Your work with the Model Minority Project. You really give a lot of yourself.

04:15:30DOAN: Yeah. I try.

04:15:32HO: And you expect a lot of yourself.

04:15:34DOAN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I have my brother to thank for that. He was—He’s tried to be as well-rounded his whole life and tried to show me like who I should be, what I should do, what I should strive to be, you know what I mean? And although I am—the way I grew up is totally different from him, I still kind of—I’m in the same place now. You know, it’s weird. This guy used to make me study the dictionary every day, right? And so, I would have to learn two words from the dictionary and remember it. And I would have to tell him what they were every night. And if I forgot, then he would kick me out of the house, at like six, seven years old.

04:16:18HO: Wow! Would you ever forget?

04:16:20DOAN: I forgot once. But then I remembered after I was outside for like two hours. Yeah. (laughs) So, he would do that. I would never want to ask him for help on homework because every time I had one problem, he would create twenty more problems to make sure I would never have that problem again. So, yeah. (laughs) So, that’s what I did. So, perfection is what I always strive for pretty much. Mm-hmm.

04:16:47HO: And do you feel like you accomplish it?

04:16:49DOAN: Mmm, I don’t know. Who really knows. You know what I mean? That’s a hard one. I think I’ve–I’m the best in—I don’t know how to explain this. I guess I made the best of what I had, to its maximum potential. Yeah. And now I’m in a place where I can expand on that, you know. For so long, I only dealt with my own people, friends, community, and the tattoo community. And I wasn’t able to break through the walls of like everybody else. And now, I’m finally like there. So, it can only go up from here, I guess. But in a different way. I knew I couldn’t get to everybody by being a tattoo artist or purely a tattoo artist. Having people see me as an artist, though, it expanded the audience a little more. And now that the non-profit is in the picture, it’s going to—things are going to be different for the better, you know. I’m able to amplify the voices of kids. I’m able to bring attention to how important like cultural, our cultural arts are, and kind of give hope in a time where everyone is just thinking about nothing but negativity and all the craziness going on in the world, you know. Like I never put anything out there that’s negative. I don’t post like negative quotes online or shame anybody or anything. That’s just not who I am. I believe the best revenge is kindness. You know, it doesn’t matter how society looks at you. It’s not your job to force them to respect you or any of that. It is your job to change the, I guess, the perspective. Change the taboos. Yeah. I think that was about it. (laughs)

04:19:04HO: Okay. Okay.

04:19:06DOAN: What else you got?

04:19:08HO: Okay. So, three more questions. I’m not making any more notes because I keep thinking of things. Actually, four questions. Okay, then I’m done. What do people not know about you? You’re so open about everything. What’s something we don’t know yet.

04:19:30DOAN: Mmm. I don’t know.

04:19:32HO: (laughs) You’re like “I can’t share for a reason.”

04:19:34DOAN: Well, one thing people don’t know really—Most people that look the most put together or they look like they know what they’re doing, usually don’t know what they’re doing, you know. I—When I get into—Obviously, you can’t—You can study, you know, airplanes all day. Like you can know every part on a airplane. You can do simulations. You can do all that. But that doesn’t mean you’re going to be able to fly the airplane. You got to—You don’t know until you get on. That’s the same thing in business or life, everything else, you know. I guess everything that I talk about, I’ve done already rather than I’m going to do, you know. I rarely talk about like “Oh, yeah. You know, I’m going to go—I’m going to buy a Ferrari next year.” Or something. Like everything that I try to teach people in order to help them is stuff that I’ve already been through, you know. And I’ve—Mistakes I’ve already made or what not. I’m not going to sell somebody something that, you know, I didn’t buy myself. But yeah. I think that’s my biggest secret. You just—You don’t know what you’re getting into until you do it. Most of the time when I get into something, I have no clue what I’m doing, you know. You just kind of figure it out along the way.

04:20:53HO: Yeah. Okay. Okay. That’s a good segue into my next question. What is next for you? What haven’t you done that you want to do?

04:21:01DOAN: Mmm, I don’t know. I don’t think there’s anything—

04:21:04HO: Even just like—Really?

04:21:06DOAN: Yeah. I don’t think there’s anything that I want. I mean, I want to do like crazy stuff. So—

04:21:10HO: Tell me. Like even just like a vacation that you haven’t taken yet.

04:21:13DOAN: I’m not really into vacations.

04:21:15HO: Okay. You’re a workaholic.

04:21:16DOAN: Because they—I feel like they put me further behind. And that stresses me out even more when I get back. That’s the problem. I’ll take a vacation for two, three days but if I do a week, then I have a week of people to respond to, too many projects to do. And it just, it makes me, it messes up my rhythm. You know what I mean? Like I can’t stop my momentum when I have it. Well, I have it all the time, but when I do have it like in a great amount, I can’t just “Oh, I’m going to take three days and not do anything and come back.” It actually makes me—It messes up my mind. It makes me like depressed. It—I don’t know. I don’t know how to explain it. When I’m home for more than two days, I feel like I didn’t do anything, I’m useless and all that. That’s crazy.

04:22:07HO: Do you ever rest then?

04:22:09DOAN: I do. I mean I’m a very—I’m more keen on consistency than, you know—I’ll do like four or five days—I mean four or five days—four or five hours of sleep every day. That’s all I really need. And then I’ll go through my routine, you know. I mean my routine might not be the same every day. Obviously, I have different tattoos every day. Sometimes, I’ll have five, ten minutes here and there and I’ll try and do my other like microtasks in between. But I always get everything done. So—

04:22:40HO: Okay. Okay. Two more questions. What are you the most proud of that you’ve done?

04:22:48DOAN: Mmm, it’s probably establishing my non-profit. Because it’s—I, when I started tattooing, it was purely about my survival. I needed money, you know. And as I was able to make money off of it—you know, as your early twenties, you really don’t know what your purpose is. You don’t think about, you know, the 401k and all that. And you’re not taught that in the neighborhood either. You’re not taught how to spend your money, how to invest. I used all my financial aid on like car parts, okay. It’s like $7,000 worth. And I don’t even have that car anymore. But it was dumb. But no one told me it was dumb, right? So, I kept trying to find a purpose. And that purpose always changed. I mean, you know, it could have been like nice cars which I got, and I got bored of. It didn’t make me happy. It could have been like buying the most expensive food. I’ve tried all of it, didn’t make me happy. It became, you know, teaching others how to make a career for themselves. And that was–that made me happy. So, I was just like “Okay. What do I do when tattooing itself is not enough?” So, that’s when I needed another purpose. And that purpose was building other people like me, basically, yeah, to hopefully come together. And, you know, by me giving to them hopefully they do the same in return for the next generation after them. Because every—we’re losing our—I think we’re losing our culture right now. I think that the kids are just too lazy and uninterested. And parents are feeding into it, I guess you could say. I see more and more the parents are having to learn how to speak English to communicate with their kids, rather than their kids having to learn Vietnamese to communicate with their parents, right?

04:25:02HO: Okay, yes.

04:25:03DOAN: And even my cousin. My cousin came here—he’s my age—he came here when he was 12 from Vietnam. He doesn’t even understand Vietnamese today. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And he lives in Chula Vista. It’s not like, you know—he’s not in the Midwest or anything. So, yeah, we’re losing it. My Lion dance group disbanded because the kids just—they won’t want to do it anymore. They’re not interested in it anymore. But yeah. It’s like a epidemic, right now, pretty much. Especially in San Diego, you know, where, you know, there’s a mix. There’s a lot of Asians here but there is not predominantly Asian. We’re suffering a lot from it. I feel like a lot of non-profits are going through it, though. Because I have a client who runs a dance, a little dance non-profit company for, you know, young kids at Balboa Park. And she tells me every year there’s less and less people. And the less people there are, the less board members are there going to be because of the parents. And then no parents means there’s not a lot of programs which means no donors for programs because they don’t have it. And then eventually it just evaporates. You know what I mean? But, I mean, the good thing is—the good thing that came from this AAPI movement is we came together. We established a new cycle of initiatives that will last, you know, for how long. I don’t know how long it’s going to last. I guess as long as this is a problem for us, which is going to be forever. But you know people forget. And then people move on. And then something else has to happen. And it just starts all over again. It’s just like war, you know.

04:26:47HO: That’s a good analogy.

04:26:51DOAN: Mm-hmm. So, when does it really stop? And I don’t like the fact that some non-profits that I’ve seen, they just try to create more problems to solve when, you know, they run out of funding or something. I don’t know. It’s weird. I’m always torn with that. Like what does an organization do when everything is solved? Right? (laughs)

04:27:16HO: Yeah. That’s a good question.

04:27:17DOAN: It’s like what’s a military contract going to do when the war is over?

04:27:20HO: Right. In peace time. Yeah.

04:27:23DOAN: Yeah. So, it’s a very great thing but I feel like some people take advantage of it and those people make it look bad for everybody else. Right? Just like with tattoo artists. Some guys are knuckleheads and make everyone else look bad. Yeah. So, that’s why I always—I get pulled over walking all the time. (laughs)

04:27:43HO: Because of the way you look.

04:27:44DOAN: Yep. Yep. But that’s okay. Because I’m always polite. Whatever. I never give them a hard time. And I would pull myself over if I looked like this. You know, right? So, that’s how it’s going to be for a while ‘til things change, ‘til I like make a big donation to the police or something. (both laughs) That’s how it all works.

04:28:07HO: So, you mentioned the kids losing the culture. That’s a good segue into my last question. So, you have a new granddaughter. What do you want for her in terms of this world she lives in, and also community and culture?

04:28:27DOAN: Well, interestingly, she’s Black and Asian. So, she’s going to have a very interesting, you know, take on the world. I want her to absorb both cultures, obviously. And celebrate it. And, I mean, my wife is pretty Americanized. But she still has her, you know, Asian cooking roots, traditions. Even though she’s the one that was born here in her family, and the youngest, she’s the only one who knows how to do like the traditional stuff, which is weird. And me too. I’m the only one who cúngs (cungs, ancestor worship rituals, Vietlish) and stuff. And my brother’s the one who was born in Vietnam. So, I mean we can obviously like teach her those things. Have her grow up in that environment. And then my stepdaughter’s boyfriend’s mom, she’s very, you know, she’s a very proud Black woman as well. I’m sure she’ll teach her everything she needs to know about what to look out for and all that. So, yeah, it should be interesting. I just want—I mean, she’s in this area. So, it’s not that bad. I mean, we’re really accepting. Everyone here is pretty much mixed now. And everyone respects each other. I mean, we respect each other’s food, cultures, all that. We celebrate it here. So, I don’t think it’s too crazy down here. As long as she doesn’t go to anywhere else, we're good.

04:29:56HO: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

04:29:59DOAN: Yeah. But I want her to be aware who she is, where she comes from. Yeah. So—

04:30:07HO: Is there anything I should have asked that I didn’t ask? Or is there anything else that you want to say?

04:30:13DOAN: Mmm, I don’t know. I think we covered everything. What else? Oh, in regards to the kids now not being motivated by culture and stuff. Well, I feel like for the longest time, you know, there’s teachers—Asian teachers look a certain way. Parents—

04:30:38HO: You mean like schoolteachers?

04:30:40DOAN: Yeah. Parents look a certain way, have a certain way of thinking, whatever. And I look different. Okay? So, I feel like they may absorb it differently coming from me. Because I knew when I was in my Lion’s Dance group, all the kids, you know, they thought they were so cool because I’m tatted and everything. And I was doing this thing with them, you know. And I was older than them and they looked up to that, right? So, I feel like it’s the same way with, you know, if I go to the high school auditorium and speak to the kids. They’re going to take it differently than if some, you know, let’s say like an Asian engineer or something came and talked to them, right? Because they can’t connect with those people. People who have taken a different path, pretty much. Because most of these kids that I’m trying to help, they’ve never thought about college in their life. Because they never thought it was an option. Nor did they think any of these careers that I’m trying to make them aware of exist either, you know. So, we want to do a career workshop sometime in the future where there would be let’s say a station on photography, and one on graphic design, one on barbering, one on, I don’t know, fashion or something. So, we want to make all that available so that these kids understand what they’re getting into before they go into it. Because half of the time, when you check off that major box for college, you don’t know what you’re about to do. Right? And you might go to school for, you know, four years to be a graphic designer and realize like there’s no jobs in it, or you hate it. All right? So, it’s good to have insight into that before you sign up and spend all your money on that.

04:32:32HO: Yeah. So, you want to do like a career fair type of thing, you said?

04:32:35DOAN: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I want to do that like once every season or something. Yeah.

04:32:41HO: Like tailored towards teenagers.

04:32:44DOAN: The arts only. Yeah, so high school seniors. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Don’t know how I’m doing it yet, but we’ll see.

04:32:51HO: I’m sure you’ll find a way.

04:32:52DOAN: Um, Thao said there’s a lot of libraries and stuff that offer their space or something. So, I’m like “Alright.” We’ll see.

04:33:00HO: Yeah. Okay.

04:33:01DOAN: Yeah. It’s just, I need someone to talk to them. But I’ve got to feel people out because if they’re not ready to see somebody like me when I approach them, then it’s very interesting where it ends up. (laughs)

04:33:13HO: Well, I have connections in the library world—

04:33:16DOAN: Oh, that’s nice. Yeah. I’ll let you know.

04:33:17HO: —being a librarian. So—

04:33:20DOAN: Yeah. My brother worked at the Linda Vista Library for twelve years.

04:33:24HO: That’s awesome.

04:33:25DOAN: Mm-hmm. I used to go there all the time with him. Because I had to go to work with him. And I used to sit there and just read books all day as a kid. Yeah. That’s why I don’t read now. (laughs)

04:33:35HO: (laughs) You had enough!

04:33:36DOAN: Yeah. I hate reading, but I’m writing a book which is ironic—

04:33:40HO: Yeah, very ironic.

04:33:41DOAN: —but I like to read things that are relevant to—more like non-fiction, like the news or something. I’m not really a fantasy guy. Because I don’t like living in a fantasy. (both laugh)

04:33:55HO: Is the Linda Vista Library still there?

04:33:57DOAN: Mm-hmm.

04:33:58HO: Do you think about your time there every time you drive by?

04:34:00DOAN: I volunteered there when I was thirteen for like a year.

04:34:03HO: Cool.

04:34:04DOAN: I was trying to work there, but they didn’t want to hire me. It’s a city job. So, it’s like they couldn’t hire anyone under a certain age anymore, I think, at the time.

04:34:15HO: Okay. I think it’s sixteen.

04:34:16DOAN: Yeah. Because when my brother was working there in the ‘90s, I think like ’94, ’95, he was getting paid a lot, like $12 an hour. At sixteen years old.

04:34:27HO: That’s good.

04:34:28DOAN: Yeah. That’s ridiculous.

04:34:29HO: Yeah. Yeah. I was making $5.75 when I was sixteen.

04:34:34DOAN: Oh, yeah?

04:34:35HO: Yeah. That was in the mid-90s, I think. Yeah.

04:34:38DOAN: Yeah. That was crazy. He only worked maybe three days a week. And that was enough for him to go on dates and stuff. So, yeah. That’s my life.

05:34:37HO: Okay. Is there anything else you want to add before we—

05:34:49DOAN: I think that’s it that I can think of.

05:34:52HO: Okay. Well, thank you for sharing your thoughts.

05:34:56DOAN: No worries.

05:34:57HO: And doing this for the community. All right.

05:35:00DOAN: So, what’s next? You’re going to get a few on there and build a website?

05:35:05HO: Yes. We are going to—(recording ends).