Ho, Jennifer. Interview November 16, 2022.

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00:00:00AMY VO: This is Amy Vo interviewing Jennifer Ho for Children of Refugees, an oral history project on the Vietnamese American experience. Today is November 16th at 12:15 p.m. Eastern time, and we are meeting via Zoom. Hi Jenn!

00:00:27JENNIFER HO: Hey Amy. (both chuckle)

00:00:29VO: I thought I’d start with your childhood and ask you about where you grew up and what you were like as a kid, or how you remember you were like. (laughs)

00:00:41HO: Okay. I was born in Hinsdale, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago, in 1982. And what I was like as a kid. I was pretty—I was an indoor kid. Just read a lot of books. Didn’t do anything athletic. Pretty quiet. Yeah, just kind of a nerdy kid, you know. But with that said, not great at school. I was really good at like reading and writing but, you know, didn’t do great in P.E. or math or science or anything that didn’t have to do with like reading a lot. (laughs) So, yeah, I did get detention a lot because I didn’t like to do my homework. I could have done it, but I was kind of lazy, so my parents didn’t like that. And I think if you asked them, I was pretty rebellious, especially as I got into middle and high school. I mean, (chuckles) like any normal kid, I wanted to hang out and go out with my friends. But they kind of wanted me to be at home all the time, which I was fine with when I was younger. But, you know, they were scared of the world and scared of things happening to me. So, they kind of just wanted me to stay home a lot. So, I was “rebellious” in the sense that I wanted to go hang out with my friends and not do anything wild or crazy. Like we just wanted to, you know, watch TV together at someone’s house or play in the park or whatever. So, yeah, kind of nerdy but also, I guess, rebellious, if you were to ask them. They were just always worried about everything, especially my dad. So that’s how I would describe myself.

00:02:42VO: That was part of another question I had, like how your family saw you as you were growing up. And I was wondering like if you could tell me about your family and the people who raised you and like why you think they saw you that way, I guess.

00:03:02HO: Yeah, sure. So, something that they told me a lot in Vietnamese was “This is not how a good Vietnamese girl is supposed to be.” So, I was not a very good Vietnamese girl by their standards. So, I was raised by my mom and dad. My mom was the breadwinner. And they were married until I was 19, and then they got divorced. So, I had my dad’s parents around a lot of the time. My parents worked a lot. My mom owned—She owned a series of businesses throughout my childhood. But the main one was she owned an office cleaning business. So, at night, she and my dad would go to different office buildings in the San Diego area and clean them. They were custodians. And so, it was their business, but it was really my mom who did all the hard work. And my dad just kind of did what she told him to do. So, she was really the boss at work and in life. And so, since my parents worked so much, my grandparents looked after us a lot. And my grandma and my dad and his two brothers came over—came to the U.S. in 1975, August of 1975. And my grandfather was planning to go with them, and the story goes—And it’s kind of fuzzy in my head and I don’t know if this—how accurate this is. But the story is that he was all set to go with them to the U.S. But he, at the last minute, decided to stay in Việt Nam (Vietnam). And this is because he was a pretty high-ranking person in the military. And he just couldn’t leave his men behind. So, he actually didn’t end up coming until I was seven years old which is when I first met him. And that was in 1989, when I was seven. So, after he came, he moved in with us and was part of our lives and looked after my brother and me while my parents were at work. And my mom’s parents had passed away a long time ago. My—Her father had never really been a part of their lives in Vietnam. He was not a great father figure, not a great husband at all, from what I understand. So, he was never part of my mom’s life. But her mother—My mom immigrated here; I don’t know what year. But she came here with her mother and three of her sisters and one of her cousins. But she passed away, my grandmother passed away when I was, I want to say, four years old. And my mom was pregnant with my brother. And she didn’t get to say goodbye, because she was pregnant. And my—her sisters didn’t want to tell her that their mom passed away. Because they didn’t want the grief to affect the baby. So, that’s how the story goes anyway. And I say that because my parents don’t really talk about anything from their past or any of their memories or anything. So, we—my brother and I—have kind of like clobbered together these little bits and pieces about them. So, we don’t really know, except for the little bit that they tell us. So, yeah, that’s who raised me. I mean my grandparents, I think, thought I was a great kid because I read books all the time, which, you know, to them is the mark of a smart person. I don’t know. But, yeah, but my parents thought I was a very naughty little girl. (both laugh) So, yeah.

00:07:04VO: I like hearing about your different parents’ and grandparents’ stories and how they came here. Can you talk more about how your parents met? And then—Because you said you were born in Illinois. But then, when you moved to San Diego, I’d like to hear about that too.

00:07:24HO: Sure. So, my parents met in Florida. They had immigrated here separately. Didn’t know each other. And when they first came to the U.S., they both arrived in Florida. So, the story goes, they were—their mothers were taking ESL classes together at the community college, I think—I’m assuming it was the community college; I don’t know—in Pensacola, Florida. And I don’t really know what happened but I, from what I understand, it was like “Oh. You have a daughter? Oh, I have a son. They should meet.” (both laugh) So, that’s how my parents met. And—Oh, you asked about how they–I think you asked about how they came to the U.S. My mom’s oldest sister, my Dì Hai (Di Hai, second aunt) she was a translator at the embassy in Vietnam. So, I think she just kind of like knew people and she was able to get her siblings on a helicopter. They didn’t know that they were going until the night before. So, it was like “Okay. Pack your bags. We’re outta here first thing in the morning.” And my mom has three—My mom technically has four sisters. She’s the second to youngest. But her youngest sister was given up for adoption when she was a baby because my—their family was just so poor, and my grandmother just couldn’t afford to take care of another person. And the grandfather, my grandfather, was just not really in the picture. He kind of came and went. So, she was doing—she was raising these four girls on a single person’s income, basically, in Vietnam. So, when she got pregnant again by my grandfather—and he wasn’t around, of course—she just kind of had to give the baby to, I guess, to a family friend. And they’re still in touch with that sister who still lives in Vietnam. But I’ve never met her. I wouldn’t know her if I saw her on the street. And my mom also said she wouldn’t know her sister if she saw her on the street. But they’re still technically in touch. One of my aunts converses with her regularly. So, that’s how they came here. There was a point to telling you about that sister. So, since there were technically five girls—yeah, my mom and her four sisters—there were technically five girls in the family. But since one of them was with her adoptive family, I don’t think it was actually ever a formal adoption. It was more like “Here. Take care of my child,” you know. So, since that sister wasn’t really in the picture, one of my mom’s cousins kind of took the place of that sister, so—when they all came here. So, that’s what I mean when my mom—when I say my mom came here with her three sisters, her cousin, and her mother. And then my dad, I don’t know his migration story. He came—his father was in the military and pretty high ranking, from what I understand. So, I’m assuming that’s how they managed to get passage here. But both of my parents came on helicopters. They weren’t boat people, so to speak. So, I think they were pretty privileged in that sense.

00:11:03VO: Yeah. So, after Florida, did they—or did they get married in Florida and then move to Illinois? Or how is their story like in America and moving around?

00:11:16HO: Yeah. So, they got married, I want to say, in Florida. And the sad thing is I don’t really know because my parents’ marriage was so miserable from the start. And my childhood is just so full of them fighting all the time. So, it’s not like their wedding was any kind of happy memory that they talked about. So, I think they got married in Florida. And then they moved to the Chicago suburbs. And, I want to say they—So, my mom used to work for Pepperidge Farms. You know, they make the cookies. And she still—she gets a pension from them now, actually, which is kind of funny and I don’t know why. But she worked for Pepperidge Farm in the Chicago suburbs. And I think that’s why they moved there. And they moved there with my mom’s—or they moved there with my dad and his siblings and his mother. So, basically, she—it was her moving her in-laws and her husband all the way to Illinois. And then, meanwhile, my mom’s family had kind of scattered a little bit, but mostly went to the west coast. One of my aunt’s, my Dì Tư (Di Tu, fourth aunt) moved to Arizona. And then, I think the rest of them went to San Diego. And then, so obviously the weather in southern California is far superior to the weather in the Midwest. So, eventually, when I was four years old and my brother was one, we all joined them in San Diego. And by then, my Di Tu, I think, had also come to San Diego. And this is all very fuzzy, and I would hate for somebody to write all this as fact. Because like I said, we don’t really talk about any of this personal history in my family. So, again, this is just like little bits of information that I’ve gathered. So—But I’m pretty sure that that’s what happened. That’s the chain of events.

00:13:26VO: Yeah. That’s impressive, though, that you’re able to piece it together. (both laugh)

00:13:31HO: I mean after forty years of cobbling information together yeah, that’s what I’ve come up with.

00:13:37VO: Yeah. So, I guess you may not have much memory of Illinois when you were like a toddler. But I was wondering like if you did, do you remember about how your parents or family members immersed you in Vietnamese culture? And you can talk more about that when you were more like aware of things in San Diego too.

00:14:06HO: Okay.

00:14:07VO: But I was also curious if you have any memories of things in the Chicago suburbs.

00:14:14HO: Sure. I don’t really have a lot of memories in the Chicago suburbs or the Chicago area because I was so little. But the cool thing is that after grad school I moved to Chicago. And I was kind of able to revisit the areas that my family frequented. When I moved to Chicago, one of the neighborhoods that I lived in was Uptown, Chicago, which is traditionally a landing pad for immigrant communities. And, most recently, it’s been the Vietnamese community. So, if you go to Uptown, there’s a lot of Vietnamese shops and restaurants and people. And the neighborhood’s getting gentrified. So, a lot of the Vietnamese families are getting pushed out into more western neighborhoods, including the suburbs. But it’s still known as a Vietnamese area. So, when my mom and my brother came to visit me in Chicago, we kind of wandered around. And my mom was like “I remember this neighborhood. This is where we went to go grocery shopping. Your grandmother always wanted to come here and, you know, get her groceries and her jewelry and her things from this area.” So, I don’t have actual memories from when I was a kid, but it was nice to know that my mom had memories there—

00:15:40VO: Yeah. That’s really cool. Yeah.

00:15:41HO: —So, that was cool. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That made me really happy. And then as a kid in San Diego—There’s a lot of Vietnamese people in San Diego. So, I—like we did Vietnamese things. But nothing was ever explained to me. Like we celebrated Tết (Tet, lunar new year) every year. We would go to, you know—we would go grocery shopping or go to cultural events or jewelry stores. My grandma loved jewelry, so I have to keep bringing that up. It wasn’t all real jewelry. There was like a lot of like fake costume jewelry. But she was very glamorous. And so, I always, when I think of her, I think of like the way she would take forever to get ready. Because she just always looked very put together and beautiful, and jewelry was part of that. So, anyway, so she likes jewelry. What else? So, yeah. Nothing was really explained to me as a kid. And I have a lot of memories of trying to speak Vietnamese and just being made fun of by my family, like every time. And memory is kind of tricky. So, maybe it’s just those select few times that it happened that stand out in my head. But I never really held on to the language, speaking-wise, as much as I should have. And I still don’t really try because I still hear like my grandma’s voice in my head making fun of me, like speaking Vietnamese like the robot would. Because, you know, Vietnamese is so tonal (makes an up and down wave-like motion with her right hand) and everything goes up and down. So, she would just, she would kind of make fun of me by saying, speaking sentences in like a very monotone voice (speaks very monotone), you know, which I can kind of laugh at now. But it still affects my confidence, speaking-wise. So, I don’t know how I got on that. But yeah. So, in terms of like Vietnamese community and culture, like my parents had Vietnamese friends and not a whole lot of extended family. That sounds weird to say because my mom has three sisters here, and my dad has two brothers that were nearby. But there weren’t like a lot of little cousins that I hung out with. I, to this day, I only have like—I only have four cousins total on each side, and, yeah, so not a lot of people to hang out with that were family. So, yeah, I guess I kind of always knew that I was a Vietnamese person but didn’t really start to want to connect until pretty recently, like maybe in the past decade or so, since I moved to Chicago and was in Uptown and kind of started to see myself through this lens of being an Asian American person and being a Vietnamese American person. And I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that I found myself removed from being in southern California amongst so many Asian people. And then suddenly being in the Midwest, being surrounded by white and Black people and not seeing faces like mine. And that’s when I started to connect to being Vietnamese. But before that, I was just kind of —It wasn’t something that I thought a lot about.

00:19:26VO: Yeah. That’s really interesting, and I think segues into another question I had which is about how do you identify yourself? And how has that changed over time? And I was also wondering about like the friends you had in San Diego and like who you surrounded yourself with and whether or not that influenced how you saw yourself or identified.

00:19:54HO: Okay. Sure. So, I identify myself as a straight, cis-gendered, Vietnamese American person. I always say Vietnamese American because I feel like if you don’t have some kind of—what’s it called, that part of speech—you know, the adjective next to American. Then people assume you’re white. I mean, Vietnamese people do that too, you know. They think of American people as white people. So, I always say Vietnamese American. And I feel like the friends that I had growing up—and this only occurred to me recently as I looked back, as I reflected—but the friends that I had growing up, and definitely the friends that I have today, are all like “hyphenated” (gestures air quotes with hands) American. Like they all come, for the most part, they all come from immigrant families, whether they’re Vietnamese or Asian or not. Like they’re almost always children of immigrants. So—and I just, I think that part of our selves that’s kind of American but very not American so to speak, that really shapes the way that we see the world and the way we interact with the world. So, I’ve just always felt more of a kinship for people who are from immigrant families. And, yeah, as an adult, that’s definitely true. Yeah. I don’t necessarily have—As a kid, I didn’t have a lot of Asian American friends, even though my neighborhood was very—it was white and Asian. But as an adult, I kind of seek out people who are Asian American, because I feel like the—I don’t know. Even though Asian Americans are not a monolith, by any means, I think the way the world lumps us together creates solidarity and community. And I find a lot of comfort in that as an adult. So, yeah. I think just my sense of being is the healthiest when I’m around people who can identify with what I’ve gone through and vice versa. We just—I feel like we just understand each other better. Does that answer your question? (chuckles)

00:22:20VO: Yeah. I had a complicated question. Because it’s just like it’s about identity but also about community. And like I think they are intertwined. And so, you did answer the question.

00:22:34HO: Okay. Cool.

00:22:36VO: So, what would you say your relationship is to the Vietnamese American community now? And you had mentioned earlier about how it really struck you like moving to the Midwest and not seeing as many people like you. And so, I could see how that was like a turning point and perhaps how it evolved over time. But if you can talk about that, like how you feel like your relationship has been over time.

00:23:13HO: Sure. I would say that it’s complicated, my relationship with the Vietnamese American community. I think probably anyone would agree with this. A Vietnamese person is not the same thing as a Vietnamese American person. You could probably say that about anybody from any culture, country in the world. Not to say that all Vietnamese people are the same as each other or all Vietnamese Americans are the same. But there is quite a rift in our—I’ll just say it—our political values. So, as a Vietnamese American person—and just an American person of color, in general—I am pretty liberal and leftist in my values and my thinking. But Vietnamese people from Vietnam are often on the other side. I think I read this somewhere. I think it’s true that Vietnamese Americans, statistically speaking, are the largest group of Asian Americans that voted for Donald Trump. And that’s because of our, I’ll just say, our childhood—or our trauma with the war and communism and nationalism. So, that history has, you know, carried forth through today. So, I don’t like that, and I see that in my own family. But I also—yeah, I don’t like to judge people or keep people or not keep people in my life due to political values. You know, I really feel like we’re more alike than the same in that we all just want to, you know, take care of our families and have a comfortable income. Like everybody wants those things. Every human wants those things. So, I don’t like seeing that in my community and in the people that I love. Not to say that my parents have those values necessarily. So, (coughs) excuse me. So, I would say that I’m proud of my parents. I’m proud of the way that they’ve come through on the other side in terms of their struggle, not to say that there haven’t been any struggles or there still isn’t trauma. And I’m proud of my–the Vietnamese American community for, in a lot of ways, holding on to our culture. You know, I can’t speak as a person from Vietnam, but I still see that Vietnamese people are very proud of their culture and their history. And I wish I saw it in my own parents. But I like hearing about Vietnamese people who like to talk about what they’ve gone through and will share that with their children. Like your parents, like that’s really cool that your dad will tell you everything and share his feelings. So, that’s really awesome. So, yeah. I’m definitely not ashamed of being Vietnamese American, but in terms of what it means to be a Vietnamese American, I don’t know. I feel close to my culture but at the same time I’m not really. Yeah. That’s something that I’m still thinking about, as you can tell. I don’t know how I feel about it. But I definitely don’t try to hide it, for what it’s worth.

00:26:49VO: Yeah. That makes sense, though. I feel like I have the same kind of feelings, too, about myself within a larger culture and like a larger culture that does have rifts in it, generational ones usually.

00:27:05HO: Yeah. Absolutely.

00:27:08VO: So, I guess like this is kind of related. Like after thinking about and, for you, piecing together your family’s migration story, like how do you think—Or maybe it’s a little harder since they’ve never like directly told you a actual narrative about it. But like as they get further from that time in their lives and like do you see that—Well, I guess, how does like their culture and their identities as being from Vietnam, like how, does that stay intact and how does that change? And how do those narratives change, I guess? Like have you noticed when they do say something maybe offhandedly, like their comments changing or like—I guess I’m asking for you to reflect on those stories and like what you perceive your family’s narratives to be, like and how much that feels a part of your life and your story, I guess? That’s a little complicated. (chuckles)

00:28:32HO: No. It is complicated but I think that’s a really cool question. So, it does feel like my story because in the larger sense of like spirituality and the universe, I do feel like we inherit stories and trauma and success and happiness and all those things from our ancestors, even if we are not aware of it. But in the direct sense, yeah. Just because I can’t speak to my family’s story, I just don’t—yeah, I don’t know. Like I—Like the times that they have told me these bits and pieces, it was only the result of someone, usually my brother who is really good about this. He’ll ask really direct questions, like questions that you and I talk about for our oral history interviews. Like he’ll say like—Like he asked my aunts, because we were all at Thanksgiving dinner—this was like ten years ago or something. But he was—he asked like “how did you get to go to Vietnam? Like logistics were involved? Like how did you and not other people get seats on this helicopter?” So, that’s how I know about my aunt working at the embassy, being a translator. Because he—If you ask my, anyone in my family, like (talks in a lower, comical voice) “What was it like to be a kid in Vietnam?” they’re not going to know. Like they’ll just be like “It was fine.” Like that’ll be their answer. (both laugh) So, you really have to get down to the nitty gritty and ask these very specific questions. And I haven’t really done that with them. And I think part of the reason is because they—And I don’t really want to talk about this on the record. So, I’ll just say they—I didn’t have a great childhood, a lot of which is probably due to their trauma and passing it along to me in ways they didn’t intend. So, I don’t feel a strong emotional connection to them. And part of me doesn’t really want to talk to them about it. So, yeah, I feel like I could ask more, and I could learn more about them and about myself. But there’s just already such a rift there between us that I just have kind of given up on them in that sense. I see them every weekend and we’re fine. But I don’t have that sense of closeness to them to where I could approach those topics with them.

00:31:14VO: Yeah. I think that like we talk about family narratives and stuff. But part of why we work on this project is to hear about the overarching narratives that happen in the community. And, like you said, those stories are part of like you, and like inherited in a like physiological way even. But like knowing that there’s a greater pattern among other people as well, outside of your family, I feel like is another way to get in touch with, you know, our culture and our history as Vietnamese people, Vietnamese American people. So, I was wondering have you ever thought about, or have you ever been back to, Vietnam? And like if you haven’t, has it ever crossed your mind? Or like is it something that you’d want to do? And like your thoughts around that and how you would go about it.

00:32:28HO: So, I’ve never been to Vietnam. We—my mom and my brother and I were tentatively planning to go in 2020 and that was—that didn’t happen. I would like to go, partially as a tourist because I’m just interested in seeing other places, and partially to see where my parents grew up. But I don’t think I don’t think even they want to see where they grew up. Like they just are not, from what I can tell and I could be totally wrong on this, but they just aren’t connected to their past. Like I know that if we go, I’m not going to hear stories about anything unless I ask really pointed questions. And I kind of feel like if my mom wanted to share, she would have. So, I could—If and when I go with my mom and my brother, I know that I can be like “Okay, mom. Where’s the house where you grew up? And who was your best friend? And was there a swing set you played on?” I’m just making things up. And I could ask these direct, pointed questions—my brother definitely could. But I kind of feel like she—because she was such an unhappy kid, from what I understand anyway—I just don’t really want to go there. I feel like I should go there, but I mean I don’t want to go there mentally or emotionally. I don’t mean to Vietnam. Yeah, I don’t know if I want to put her through that, and I don’t know if I want to put myself through that. But I am still curious, and I’m still interested. And I think if she really put her foot down and was like “Okay. We’re going this year. We’re buying the tickets,” then I would go. But it’s just not really a priority for me. I feel like I ought to go and if my parents pass away—I mean, of course they’re going to pass away one day—but if I don’t go with them before they pass away, I think I might regret it. But I just don’t know if I’m ready. And I also don’t want to be disappointed by their lack of reflection or storytelling or any kind of information sharing. And I have a feeling, knowing them, that that’s how it would be. My dad actually went to Vietnam with his new wife last year. (clears throat) Excuse me. And I asked him how it went, and he was like “It was fine. It was good.” (Vo laughs and Ho shakes her head and furrows her brow) And like he—I know he visited some people. He visited like one of his aunts and some of his cousins that he like knew as a kid. He showed me some pictures. But when I tried—I actually tried to ask him specific questions. I don’t remember what I asked him. But I got nothing out of it. Like he didn’t have any kind of reflection to share with me. And I think that part of them—if it ever existed—that reflective, I don’t know, muscle, that sense of wanting to know yourself or get in touch with your feelings, if they ever had that it’s atrophied. Like they just don’t think about the past. They don’t reflect on it, except to maybe think about, I don’t know, regrets or not having money or direct, today-related things like that. But they just don’t think about their pasts. So, going back to your question, yeah. I’d go to Vietnam, but I don’t know. I’m just not—I would really have to check myself so that I don’t have high expectations. Because I’m pretty sure they would not be met which is a horrible attitude (laughs) but, you know, just keepin’ it real. I just don’t think that I would get a lot out of it. Or I’d have to really prepare somehow, and I don’t know how I would do that. So, yeah.

00:36:54VO: Yeah. I mean I feel like that’s being realistic. (both laugh) You know your parents.

00:37:00HO: Yeah. Definitely.

00:37:03VO: I guess that makes me curious about what they’re like and how they keep in touch with like their identities as Vietnamese people and like how they see themselves in America. Because like I feel like thinking about their past, that’s so intertwined with like their origins as being from Vietnam. So, like trying to disconnect from that, I wonder like how do they—like from what you can tell, like how do they feel as Americans and as being Vietnamese in America?

00:37:50HO: That’s a good question. You know, I’m not sure. I feel like my—there’s a lot of really good—mmm, how do I say this? So, my mom and her sisters are all really tough, independent, strong women. And my grandmother was the same way, their mom. There, definitely the thing that I appreciate most about my mom is that she’s like crazy hardworking and there’s nothing she cannot do if she decides she wants to do it. So, she’s always been very strong-willed and independent and entrepreneurial. So, I think—And her sisters are the same way. So, I think as it relates to your question and their identities as Vietnamese Americans, I think there’s a sense of pride in the lives that they’ve built for themselves, in that they haven’t really had to ever—And I’m not, definitely not, judging anyone who does this because I kind of get it—But they’ve never had to be in a relationship for the sake of being taken care of. They’ve never married for money which I kind of see a lot of immigrant women doing which, again, I get it, you know. It’s expensive. And, I mean, buying a home is expensive and taking care of yourself and your kids, that’s not easy. So, definitely don’t judge people for doing that. But my mom and her sisters have never had to do that. So, I think that this American dream as we call it, which is BS in a lot of ways, has really worked out for them. And I’m very proud of them for doing that. My dad’s side is—I don’t know, my dad wasn’t the breadwinner. And he was taken care of by my mom while they were married. So, he’s not built the same way as they are. That’s all I’ll say. (chuckles) But in terms of carrying their heritage, all of them, as Vietnamese Americans, you know, I don’t know. All my—My parents and aunts and uncles all speak Vietnamese and eat Vietnamese food and celebrate all of the traditional holidays. But, you know, I’m not sure what it is about them that makes them specifically Vietnamese, other than those things, which you could say about, you know, a Polish person or a, you know, anybody else from another culture and country. So, I don’t know. That’s a question that I think about a lot, too, for them and for myself and my brother. Like what is it that makes us Vietnamese? Or what makes us special? I don’t really know. And I don’t want to just pin everything on food and holidays. Because that’s kind of just like anybody can cook food and anybody can celebrate a holiday. So, what is it about Vietnamese people or, you know, what is it that makes the culture unique or special or is a marking of that specific culture? I don’t know. This will be a good question to ask them. But I don’t know if they would be willing to answer that (both laugh) either. Yeah. I’m not sure. I don’t know. I don’t know how to answer that. That was my long-winded way of saying I have no idea.

00:41:52VO: Well, that’s a hard question and like you can’t really pinpoint like a specific thing. But like—So, and then it’s hard to think about like big picture kind of things, too. But I thought I’d ask and see if you had any—what your thoughts were. (laughs)

00:42:10HO: Cool, cool. I’m glad you asked.

00:42:14VO: I’m going to switch gears a little bit and ask about if you had any goals or dreams for when you grew up, as you were growing up. Like what did you think about adulthood being like and what you envisioned yourself being? Like what did you want when you were growing up? And like how would your younger self feel about where you are now?

00:42:41HO: That’s a good question. When I was a child, I wanted to be a movie star. (both laugh) I literally wanted to be a movie star. And I was obsessed with movies and Hollywood, and I would go to the movies and see like the, you know, the big posters (indicates a large square item with hands) on the wall with Sandra Bullock or whoever. And I’d be like “Yeah. That’s going to be me one day.” (furrows brow and shakes head) I don’t know. I don’t know where that came from, honestly. Because that sounds like a complete nightmare to me now. So, then as I grew up, I wanted to—I’ve had so many different careers before I landed on being an archivist. But they were always in the vein of like being of service to people. So, I wanted to be—I wanted to work in hospitality for a long time, in hotels, which I did for quite a long time. And then social work. And then I wanted to teach. So, they were all professions where you have to give in some way to people. And I think being a librarian and an archivist is not any different from that. So–and I think there’s so many ways in which I’m like my mom, fortunately and unfortunately. But that’s one of them. She’s always kind of dedicated herself to helping people. So, what would my childhood self think of what I do now? I don’t know! You know, I never really thought of—I mean, there was a brief period of time where I thought about, you know, being married and what my kids’ names would be. But that didn’t really last long, I think, partially because my parents’ marriage was so miserable. I just—That kind of—That dream just kind of fizzled out. I’m not opposed to any of that now but, you know, I’m forty and I’m single and have no kids which I’m very, definitely okay with, no joke. But it’s not a priority at this point. So, yeah, I think—I don’t know. I didn’t really think about myself in like career terms when I was a kid. But I did love the library. And I did go—My dad took me to the library all the time. And if he couldn’t take me, then one of my uncles would take me. So, I always had very positive associations with the library. Never thought of it as a career or anything when I was a kid. So, I guess, I don’t know. I guess now that I think about it, maybe I would have thought my adult self is pretty cool for being a librarian, I hope. But yeah. Yeah, I don’t know if that answers the question, but—

00:45:28VO: No, it does. I guess I was—Like when you were mentioning the different careers that you’ve been in, that made me wonder about like—and you mentioned that your mom is also a very giving person who wants to be of help in service to others. I wanted to ask more about that part of you, and like when you first—Or like is there a moment when you first started to think “Oh. This is—I really like doing this and like helping other people.” And like how that—And like how you came to know that part of yourself?

00:46:08HO: Hhmmm. That’s a good question. I don’t think there was a specific moment, honestly. I think part of it might stem from being a people pleaser as a kid which might have been a, I don’t know, like a self-preservation mechanism because, you know, my parents were very controlling and demanding. So, I think that may be part of it. So, being a people pleaser and then going into a service profession where you have to help people and meet their needs, like there might be some kind of psychological connection there. But I hope that’s not the only reason that I do what I do. So, yeah. I don’t think there was a specific moment. I just kind of—It’s just always felt right to me to give in some way. And as an adult, especially in the last few years, I’ve learned how to, you know, create boundaries and, you know, pay attention to my own needs and not the needs of the people around me so much. So, that’s helped me become a healthy adult. But yeah. This is just always what’s felt natural to me after I decided I wasn’t going to be a movie star. (both laugh)

00:47:39VO: I wonder what that would have been like if you pursued that. (laughs)

00:47:45HO: Yeah. I don’t know, man. I don’t think I would have been successful. I definitely would have been a brat. Like, you know, being one of those people who, you know, everyone says “Yes” to you. Like, I don’t know. I’m thinking of ultra famous people where people are at your beck and call. I don’t think I would have turned out to be a very nice person if I had people like, you know, fawning all around me and trying to meet my every need. So, maybe it’s a good thing that didn’t happen.

00:48:19VO: To go in the same vein of like your path, and I don’t mean just like career path either, but I was wondering as you were growing up and going through school and your work and everything and just going through life, if you had any influential mentors or teachers, and like influential people in that way like outside of your family who really made a difference in your life? And like how you saw yourself or how you saw yourself as a person, I guess. I feel like sometimes there are people like that.

00:49:00HO: Yeah. That’s a good question. I know it’s very cliché, but my mom is a very influential figure, as she would be for any person. But she’s, specifically, she’s just so tough and super strong-willed and some would say stubborn, which is not a positive trait. But I just really appreciate that about her. And so, I can see myself in her in that like if I decide to do something, like, it’s happening. I’m making it happen regardless of any perceived obstacles. Like I’ve never really said “Oh, what if it doesn’t work out.” Like I don’t really even think about that. And I think that comes from her. And her mother, from what I understand, was very much the same. Like they didn’t have a great relationship growing up. But my grandmother was very entrepreneurial too, and she had all these kids to take care of. But she was just—you know, she hustled. And she like opened businesses and had all these different like streams of income in order to bring in money to feed her kids. So, I just really appreciate and respect that from my mom’s side. In terms of other mentors, you know, I—Yeah, I had some really good teachers growing up, in grade school, who were always interested in what I had to say and what my thoughts were. And I got attention from them in ways that I didn’t at home, you know. Like they actually validated my feelings and my thoughts and my work, so really good teachers. You know, I think every person in my life that’s had some kind of mentorship role has been someone who validates me. And I think I say that because my family just didn’t. You know, we don’t do that. They were never like “Oh, you do such a great job,” or “I’m proud of you,” or “I care about you,” or “You’re great!” Like I never got that at home, ever! So, even like up ‘til today, like I have people at work that I look up to. And it’s just the same thing. Like they’ll tell me that I’m doing a great job, or they really liked this aspect of this project. Or just—they’ll have all these affirming words. And that’s something that I really need, unfortunately. So, yeah, in terms of mentors, like there’s lots of people that come to mind. But it’s always—they are always people who provide that for me.

00:51:50VO: Yeah.

00:51:52HO: Yeah.

00:51:54VO: You also talked about your grandparents raising you when you were growing up. So, I was wondering about like their influence in your life. Like what kind of time did they spend with you? Or were they just like in the same room at the same time? Or in the same building? (laughs) And like—And then I wanted to ask about mealtimes and like who did the cooking and stuff like that. But you can start with I want to know more about growing up in a multi-generational home with your grandparents.

00:52:33HO: Sure. Yeah. So, my grandparents that I grew up with were my dad’s parents. And they were really loving and caring in the way I feel like only grandparents are. So, I definitely didn’t get the same criticism from them that I did from my parents. I didn’t really get a lot of praise either. But, you know, at least I wasn’t criticized. So, yeah, my grandparents didn’t really share a lot of their stories with me either. Definitely not the kind of grandparents who were like “Oh, let me tell you about when I was a kid.” Like there wasn’t any of that. They passed away in 2019, just one month apart from each other. And it was really wild because they—my grandfather was—he had, I don’t think it was Alzheimer's. I think it was just short-term memory loss, not just, but not to the extent where he was actually like diagnosed as dementia or Alzheimer’s. So, and after a while, he just couldn’t really take care of himself. And my dad was not in a situation where he could have my grandfather move in. And my uncle—he just—none of my dad, or then neither of his brothers could take care of him. So, he went to a nursing home. But he was visited often. They did not ignore him. I just wanted to state that for the record. (Vo chuckles) So, he was in this home for like a year, I want to say. I was living in Chicago at the time. So, that’s kind of fuzzy. But my grandma was okay. And she was pretty sharp up until like maybe the week before she passed. And so, anyway, I say all this because he—They were not living together and my family didn’t tell my grandmother that my grandfather had passed. But somehow, a month after he passed, she did too. And they weren’t together. But I guess somehow you just know. And I think that’s really beautiful. So, in terms of how they raised me, sorry, I keep going back and forth. (laughs)

00:55:02VO: No. That’s okay.

00:55:04HO: Yeah, they were great. When I got my master’s degree, my grandpa was really happy about that. So, he told me I was number one. That was it. He’s like “You, number one.” He said it in English. But, yeah, they didn’t say much else, but I could tell he was really proud of me. So, yeah, my parents, when I was a kid, my parents worked a lot. And so, my grandma was always there taking care of us or my grandpa. And, you know, they didn’t really play a lot with us or interact a lot with us. But they were just always there, you know. My brother and I would play with each other, or we might have a friend over or play video games. He would play video games, and I would be reading a book or whatever. So, not a ton of interaction, but they were definitely around which I appreciate now. And, yeah, my grandma, a couple years before—(coughs) sorry, I’m not used to talking so much. A couple of years before they started to get ill, my grandma told my brother a story about how she—my grandfather was, I guess, in Thailand with the military doing something. And he was like in a prison there, for some reason. I still don’t know. So, my grandma had to like find passage to Thailand which isn’t technically that far. But you can’t just like stroll on over, you know. So, oh my gosh. I’d have to ask my brother what the details of the story are. And I think I’ll do that if I interview him. But basically, she just told the story about how it took like a whole week for her to get to my grandpa. And all she wanted to do was like bring him supplies, like socks and medicine and that kind of thing. But she had to like talk to all these different people and like pay people to like let her cross and like bribe them and that kind of thing. And my grandmother was actually pretty well off in Vietnam. Like she had some money. And then my grandfather was pretty high ranking. So, they were not—they were relatively privileged, unlike my mom’s family. But even with all that privilege, it was still quite an obstacle to get—to find him and get him these supplies. So, and the reason I bring it up was because that’s the one memory that I have of her telling a story. And it was because—And it was just, you know, her wanting to get to her husband so she could care for him in some way. So, that really stands out, that love that they had for each other.

00:58:00VO: Yeah. That’s really sweet.

00:58:03HO: Yeah. It is.

00:58:06VO: So, the conversations that you did have, were they mostly in Vietnamese? And like what kind of conversation—I mean, it sounded like, because she was able to talk about her story with you, that you were able to talk with one another. But I was wondering about like if there were any language barriers. Or—Because you also talked about not feeling comfortable speaking Vietnamese with them. So, what was that like as a component of your relationship with them?

00:58:44HO: So, my brother is actually really good about trying to speak Vietnamese. Like his Vietnamese also isn’t great. But he tries really hard, unlike me. So, when I say that she told the story, she was really telling him the story. And she only told him a story because he asked in Vietnamese. So, yeah, I could understand most of the story which was told only in Vietnamese. And my comprehension is actually pretty decent. But I have never really been able to converse with my grandparents other than, you know, “How are you?” “I’m hungry,” you know, like the things that you need to be able to communicate. Yeah, my dad was always around—or not always around. But, as an adult, when I visited my grandparents, my dad was always around. Like he would take us to visit them. And he speaks both English and Vietnamese. So, he always just kind of translated for me. So, yeah, I can’t really—I was never really able to communicate with my grandparents much at all. But they were able to communicate with me. So, I guess I’m the lucky one. But yeah, my brother—Yeah, everything that I know is because my brother is willing to put forth that effort. He doesn’t have that trauma the way I do. So—I can speak–or I actually read and write to a certain degree, like I don’t know, maybe to a third-grade level or something. But I can. And my brother doesn’t have that ability, ironically. So, yeah. Everything my grandparents said to us was in Vietnamese. They could speak, you know, okay-ish English. But they didn’t really. They were able to, you know, get around, go to the grocery store, like American grocery stores and talk to American people in English, to a certain extent. So, they were okay. But in the family, they only spoke Vietnamese. So, yeah, not a lot of communication with my grandparents.

01:01:01VO: Yeah. What were they like? Or I’m guessing—what was their community like? Do you remember like growing up and them seeing other people that were their friends or family? And like how often did they get out of the house and like those kind of interpersonal things? And like did they ever take you places to meet those people and go to events and things?

01:01:32HO: Yeah. So, my grandparents—everyone on my dad’s side, actually including my dad, they’re all very social people. My mom’s side is more introverted and quiet. But my dad’s side is pretty, pretty social and extroverted. So, my grandparents definitely had their own community of Vietnamese people. They had their friends. All the people in their lives, in terms of like, I don’t know, service people, like their doctors, dentists, etc. were all Vietnamese. And they lived in San Diego on—they lived in City Heights, which is Little Saigon in San Diego, basically. Just like Uptown in Chicago, City Heights is traditionally, you know, a landing pad for immigrant people. But it’s mostly Vietnamese people now. And there’s also Somalians, and Ethiopians, and a lot of Latino folks. So, it’s really a melting pot for, you know, all these different like crosswalks and intersections of life. But a lot of immigrant people and a lot of Vietnamese people. So, they lived in that area, and they definitely had a community. Like I didn’t really like socialize like, you know, like (laughs) go to the bars with them or anything. And I know you weren’t asking that. (Vo laughs) But there were always Vietnamese people around and they had their friends. And they had siblings who were in San Diego. So, yeah. They were always very connected. And so, I felt connected when they were alive. And I still feel connected to Vietnamese people, although I don’t know how I’ll—if that will still be true after my gran—after my parents pass away. And I know you didn’t ask that. But that’s where my mind went, so yeah. They were always connected with the Vietnamese Vietnamese community. And they were older when they came here. So, they definitely held on to that, to their culture and their heritage really well.

01:03:40VO: Yeah. I’m always so like impressed or like happy for older folks who are able to like stay engaged in that way, with like people around them and like their wider community. Because I feel like that’s really healthy and like—And so, I can see why they lived so long.

01:04:04HO: Yeah. That’s a good point actually. I never thought about that. Yeah.

01:04:09VO: Yeah. Well, I wanted to ask you about your favorite dish, since I really liked it when you asked me that question. (chuckles)

01:04:18HO: Okay.

01:04:19VO: What’s your favorite meal to eat? What’s your favorite Vietnamese dish? What’s your favorite snack? And then like what’s the thing that you’re able to cook yourself that you like feel—Like for me, at least, whenever I have guests or visitors over, I’m like “Oh. I’m going to make bò kho (bo kho) for them to eat. Because I make it pretty well. So, like what’s that for you? What’s your favorite thing to eat?

01:04:53HO: My favorite thing to eat, Vietnamese-wise, is—Well, probably anything-wise, is Vietnamese curry. My mom makes it the best, of course. And so, I’m vegetarian. So, she makes it for me with just like, you know, the typical things like tofu, and taro, and carrots. And, I don’t know, whatever she puts in it, it’s always good. I don’t even know. And I feel like Vietnamese curry is so hard to find that whenever I go to a Vietnamese restaurant and I see curry on the menu, like that’s what I’m getting. Period. If it’s vegetarian, then that’s my default order. And I feel like it’s always good. It’s like pizza, like you can’t really go wrong. Even if it’s bad, it’s still good. So, I don’t really cook Vietnamese food, unless you count—which this shouldn’t count—the noodles in the packet. It’s not ramen. I don’t even know what the name is. But—

01:06:03VO: Is it IndoMie?

01:06:04HO: It’s not IndoMie. It’s a Vietnamese, or it’s in Vietnamese. And it’s been around forever. And even when I wasn’t vegetarian, I would get—My dad liked the onion flavor. And he would always eat that. So, sometimes I make that at home for like just a comfort food meal. There’s like a little packet of seasoning. And then there’s the oil packet. And then my dad would always add things like sliced onions, and like lettuce leaves, and just things to like bulk it up. So, that’s one of my favorite things to make at home. But I would never give that to a guest. (both laugh) It would be so embarrassing. I think it’s called Kung Fu. (looks to her right and seems to be looking something up on the computer) Kung Fu noodles. Oh, is it okay to Google it during the—? Yeah. It’s fine. (Vo laughs) It’s our project. Kung Fu noodles.

01:06:57VO: Yeah. I want to know what it is. I don’t think I’ve ever had it.

01:07:03HO: Yes. This is it. Onion flavor. I’ll share my screen. I hope it’s okay. Onion…This, oh my god. This is it. Okay. Um, I’m going to share real quick.

01:07:16VO: Okay.

01:07:21HO: (Shares screen and the image is of a package of noodles called “Kung-Fu” on the Amazon website) Can you see that?

01:07:23VO: It’s loading. Wow! I’ve never seen it!

01:07:27HO: Oh, really? Okay. Well, we’ll—if we see each other at SAA next summer, I’ll bring you a packet. It’s really delicious, although that might just be my childhood nostalgia. (Screen sharing stops) Saying that, it probably isn’t even that great. But it’s the onion flavor. And I guess it’s not Vietnamese. It says “Mì Hành” (Mi Hanh) something.

01:07:46VO: Yeah, there’s Vietnamese on it.

01:07:48HO: On it, so yeah. That’s kind of Vietnamese. So, yeah, that’s what I make at home more often than I care to admit. But I don’t really cook Vietnamese food. And I feel like it’s so labor intensive. I mean—

01:08:03VO: I know. Yeah. I get that. Especially like the more popular or well-known dishes, like even making bánh xèo (banh xeo) is like, do I want to go through frying each pancake or whatever?

HO: Yeah. It takes forever. My mom will make banh xeo for us kind of often. But she—and when I say “us,” I mean me and her. But like she can’t sit and relax and enjoy it with me. Like she’s just standing there the whole time and cooking and then she’ll like sneak in bites. So, that kind of sucks.

01:08:42VO: I also wanted to ask, when you eat curry, do you eat it with rice or with bread? Because sometimes—or with noodles? Like rice noodles.

01:08:49HO: I like it with noodles.

01:08:50VO: Yeah. Okay.

01:08:51HO: Yeah. That’s my favorite. I will eat it with French bread if the bread is toasted. Rice is good too. I mean rice goes with everything. So, yeah, out of the three, I would pick noodles. But they’re all winners.

01:09:02VO: Okay. I was wondering because I know I’ve had all three. But I feel like everyone would have their preference. (laughs)

01:09:11HO: Yeah. Definitely. Noodles are my preference, period, in life. So— And then food-wise. Okay. (holds head in her hands) I have to say, in Chicago, there was this restaurant called Phở Xe Lửa (Pho Xe Lua), and some people call it “PXL” for short. And they had—The lady that ran it, or who owned it, trained with Vietnamese monks. So, there was a really extensive vegetarian menu. And I loved that place for that reason. Everything was so good. And the thing that I would get the most there was a—(whispers to herself, scratching her head) oh god—it was not bánh ướt (banh uot), but something just like it. So, like I guess white people now call them rice rolls. But just the flat rice layers that are—Oh, there’s a name for it. What is it? And they’re just kind of rolled up and they’re just—you just put the nước mắm (nuoc mam) on them, and they get really soggy, and you eat them with chả lụa (cha lua) and all the veggies. I’m kicking myself because I can’t remember the name.

01:10:23VO: Is it—It’s—is it bánh cuốn (banh cuon)?

01:10:25HO: Yes!

01:10:26VO: Oh, okay.

01:10:27HO: Yes. Banh cuon. Yes. That’s it.

01:10:29VO: Yeah. I love banh cuon.

01:10:31HO: Yeah. (Vo laughs) It’s always—Yeah. I like wet foods. So that one always hits the spot.

01:10:38VO: Yeah. I always think of it as like a brunch meal too. I don’t know if that’s just how–when we would eat it, like for brunch on the weekend.

01:10:47HO: Oh! Interesting. Okay.

01:10:49VO: Yeah. Banh cuon. Yeah. Well, I guess, do you have any other thoughts about food? (both laugh) Or like mealtimes or cooking or like any things that your family did together with food?

01:11:11HO: Um, I think the thing that stands out to me most in terms of family mealtime is that for a long time my mom owned a little chain of stores at the mall. So, she sold like formal wear for children for like weddings, or quinceañeras, or just, you know, little tuxedos and dresses for little kids. So, that kept her very busy, and my dad, it kept him very busy too. And so, for a long time we would just go to the grocery store once a week and buy like frozen meals to pop in the microwave to eat at home because they were too busy to cook. My mom was too busy to cook. So, yeah, my mom talked about that not long ago and like expressed how much she regretted that she had to put us through that, which was nice of her to acknowledge. And I don’t think it was the worst thing. Like I get it. She was busy. So, but yeah, that stands out to me a lot. So, I think that’s it. Yeah, my grandma cooked, but not often. And she would make soup a lot. Like she would make phở (pho)and other soupy, noodley things. And what I remember about her is two things. She would always, whether it was at home or a restaurant, she would get like the fresh chili peppers, (indicates something about two inches long with her right thumb and forefinger) the red ones—like I think they were Thai chilis—and she would slice them up into little slices. They were fresh and she would slice them up and add them to her soup. She liked hot food, like spicy food. So, she—if we were at home, she had those ready. And then if we were at a restaurant, she would request them. And then—And she would always either have scissors or—No! She always had scissors at home, and if we were going out to a restaurant, she would keep scissors in her purse so that she could cut the noodles in the restaurant which I always thought really embarrassing. But now, as an adult, I’m like yeah. You’ve got to take care of your own needs. So, that’s awesome. (both laugh)

01:13:26VO: I think people also don’t get like scissors are actually a very important part of eating in that way. Like I’ve done—I’ve cut things like in the kitchen or while I’m eating, with scissors. And other people who aren’t like Vietnamese or Asian even like are like confused, or aren’t used to it, I guess. Yeah.

01:13:53HO: Yeah. I feel like, yeah, I’ve never actually done that myself. I don’t have kitchen scissors. But I definitely appreciate how handy they are. So,—

01:14:05VO: I like that story about your grandma. Thank you. (both laugh) Can I ask another—one more question—about like are there foods?—because, for me, I’ve experienced this where they’re American foods that kids love but like, for me, it was very foreign. And so, it was like an experience that I sought out. I was like “I want to try this American food.” Yeah, is—Do you have experiences like that? Like growing up with eating a certain type of food but then like your peers experience like different types of food. And then you don’t know, like you aren’t able to connect to that. Or like then you’re like “I want to try that.” Or—Does that question make sense?

01:14:58HO: Yes. It makes sense. I’m trying to think of an answer. That’s a good question. I, you know, I think–I don’t think I have a lot of that because my parents worked so much and we always had that frozen food stuff. So, I, you know, ate like lasagna or Marie Callendar’s or those things. And then sometimes like McDonalds and that kind of stuff too. The only answer I can think of is when my dad—was it my dad? I can’t—I think it was actually my best friend in high school. Her name was Lisa. She was white. And she—we got these passes to go off campus for lunch. So, it felt like, you know, the big time, right? Like you were allowed to go off campus for lunch as long as you come back. So, I think on one of our first times doing that, we went to Taco Bell. And I had never been to Taco Bell before. I don’t remember what we got but I remember loving it and wanting to go there as much as I could after that. Like I had never given it a second thought. But then it’s like the world opened up before me. So, yeah, so then I took my dad and my brother there, and they loved it too! (both laugh) Um, that’s all I can think of. Yeah. I feel like we went out to eat a lot, my family and I did, because my parents were just so busy. So, we didn’t really have another choice. And then my grandma, I guess she could have cooked. But she didn’t really cook much, and I don’t know why. I’m sure she would have, but I don’t know why she didn’t cook that much because you think of a grandmother like always cooking, right? But I don’t really have memories of her cooking for us. She also didn’t really get along with my mom. So, that might have had something to do with it (shrugs) looking back. Maybe my mom didn’t want her to or something. But yeah, food-wise, I feel like we were—yeah, my parents always preferred Vietnamese food first. But we were—I feel like we were pretty adventurous compared to other immigrant families just because we didn’t really have a choice. So, yeah.

01:17:17VO: Yeah. That makes sense. Because I was thinking of like cheese kind of based things, because a lot of people in my family don’t eat cheese, because it’s like not really part of Vietnamese cuisine. So, like if there’s cheese, they won’t eat it. Um, my dad—

01:17:38HO: Even Laughing Cow?

01:17:40VO: —yeah. My dad loves cheese, though. So, I was wondering if there’s stuff like that that influenced your experiences of like things that are American that you didn’t eat ‘til later.

01:17:54HO: My dad—I don’t think this counts—but my dad really liked liverwurst, like paté. But it was always like the—what brand was it? It was like an American brand. It wasn’t Asian or Vietnamese at all. And he would eat that a lot. And he liked Spam a lot too.

01:18:13VO: Oh, yes. (laughs)

01:18:15HO: Of course. And he would just take whatever ingredients and like put them all in a baguette. And the Laughing Cow, of course. Yeah. I don’t know. Nothing stands out other than those things. So, after I found out what liverwurst is, I stopped eating it. (Vo laughs) Even before I was vegetarian. I was like “Nope. Not eating that anymore.” It was really good though. (chuckles)

01:18:40VO: I know. I remember—I know this is your interview, but—

01:18:45HO: That’s okay, no. (shakes head)

01:18:47VO: When I was a kid, we loved eating paté on like toast. And my brother called it quẹt quẹt (quet quet) because you kind of like smear it. (motions smearing with her right hand)

01:18:55HO: Oh. (laughs)

01:18:58VO: And then like we had friends over, and we were like “You want a snack?” And then we—and my mom told them what it was, and they were like “Oh my god! Don’t want it.” But yeah.

01:19:12HO: Was that embarrassing?

01:19:14VO: I don’t know. I was just like—I guess it was a little embarrassing, but since I still think about it (both laugh) from time to time. But yeah, well was there anything else that you wanted to talk about before we wrap up?

01:19:35HO: Mmm, no, nothing comes to mind. This was a good interview. Thank you.

01:19:40VO: Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you for your time.

01:19:44HO: Of course.