Kim, Randy. Interview April 22nd, 2023.

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00:00:00JENNIFER HO: Okay, today is April 22nd, 2023. I’m Jennifer Ho, interviewing Randy Kim for Children of Refugees, the Vietnamese American Oral History Project. We are in Chicago, Illinois and it is 2 o’clock. Thanks for being here, Randy. How are you?

00:00:17RANDY KIM: Thank you. I’m doing wonderful.

00:00:19HO: Good. All right. Let’s start from the beginning. Tell me when and where you were born.

00:00:24KIM: So, I was born on (redacted) 1983. I was born in Lisle, Illinois. So, I was the first one born in the U.S.

00:00:30HO: Oh, okay, great. Do you have siblings?

00:00:34KIM: I do. I do have two younger brothers. They’re twins. And they were born in February 15th, 1986.

00:00:39HO: Okay. Also in Lisle?

00:00:41KIM: Yes. That is correct.

00:00:43HO: Okay, cool. Tell me about your family and the people who raised you.

00:00:46KIM: So, my parents came to the U.S. separately. They met in the U.S. My father escaped from Cambodia after the Khmer Rouge genocide, and he also had stayed over in Thailand in a refugee camp for a little bit and actually had worked on the refugee resettlement assistance with a lot of the survivors, many of the survivors of the Khmer Rouge. And for my mom, her family came to United States escaping out of Việt Nam (Vietnam) by boat. And they were living in Malaysia for a couple of years. So, I was–I was the first one born as a result of them meeting up in America. And so, yes. I don’t know if there’s any specific probing questions that you’re interested in about the way they raised me.

00:01:33HO: Maybe. But before we get to that, can I ask how they met?

00:01:37KIM: Um, I believe it was my mom’s father, which is my grandfather. And my grandfather and my dad worked together at a metal welding company. And so, my dad struck up a friendship with my grandfather. And so, my grandfather introduced my mom to my dad. So, that’s how they began. Yeah.

00:02:00HO: Do you know how soon they got married after they met?

00:02:02KIM: Um, not very long. I think it was a lot sooner. I gotta say it was less than a year. Because I think they got married in 1982. And I was born in ’83.

00:02:13HO: Okay. Okay. And where was this metal welding shop?

00:02:18KIM: The metal welding company is in Lisle–Lisle, Illinois. And that’s actually—It was known as—It was called Lockformer. It’s a huge–It was a huge company at the time.

00:02:28HO: Lockform?

00:02:29KIM: Lockformer. Yeah. Lockformer. It’s L-O-C-K-F-O-R-M-E-R. So, yeah. This was a company he would be working for for thirty years until the plant shut down and moved to another state.

00:02:47HO: Okay. You told me how your dad came here. What about your mom?

00:02:51KIM: My mom’s family escaped by boat from Vietnam. They escaped overnight. I think my understanding was that since my grandfather was like in a position with the Vietnamese Army. I don’t know what ranking he was, but he was in the South Vietnamese Army. And so, that definitely made him a target. My uncle, who was my uncle by my—through marriage via my aunt, was in prison. He was in a reeducation camp for a number of years. So, I think that actually started to alarm the family that they needed to escape. So, they bribed someone and they left overnight when there was like a town hall meeting, I believe. I don’t remember the full, accurate picture, but that’s what led them to escape. And they would end up leaving into—landing into Malaysia. Kuala Lumpur is where they were at. And they were there for about three years until 1981, which is when they migrated to Illinois.

00:03:56HO: Okay. What have your parents said about their trip?

00:04:00KIM: Um, you know, both of their journeys are so very different. I think for my dad it’s a very difficult topic for him to talk about because his escape out of Cambodia was deeply, deeply traumatic. You know, there was so much that he saw on his journey. I think when you go through this–this chaos, this indescribable chaos, you—or for my father, in this case, it’s like–it’s hard for him to talk about it unless he’s triggered. And when he’s triggered, that could come by when I’m arguing with him. Then that’s–that starts to come out in a very difficult way. And I–and I’ve had this conversation with him before, several years ago. And it was hard. I think it was a hard conversation and what he could share was that he talked about how it would take him days and nights to get through it. And how he came along with his friends who—or people that he met along the way. And then they escaped together. It was—I can’t remember—it was four or five men that he escaped with. But like they were basically walking through the nights in the jungle and staying set during the daytime because, you know, you don’t want to get caught. And there were land mines and there was just a lot of—It was very treacherous. And I think that they—My dad used to tell me the story that there was a snake that—And you know the interesting thing about that snake was that my dad was born in the year of the snake. So, I think it holds some significance. That snake was in his direction. And so, I think that prompted him to like go into a different direction where it would lead him into where he needed to escape to. Because for a while they were going into the same path, you know. They were walking and, you know, actually not advancing because they did not know where they were going. So, I think he would credit the snake for actually guiding him in that weird direc–in that direction. You know, for my mom I would say that there was not much of a description of what it was like in the boat, except that there were–it was very stormy. It was very turbulent. They were very worried about pirates which were very common, you know, from what I’ve been told. But it was a very dangerous path, and I don’t know if their boat was robbed. Because the reason why I bring this up is because I wrote–I read a book called Snow in Vietnam which is done by my friend Amy M. Lê (Amy M. Le), and she talked about how many of these–many of the boat people were robbed or harassed or assaulted. And I wondered if my mom and my aunt were assaulted at one point too, you know. So, I kind of wonder how deep and traumatic that journey was. And it’s a question that I don’t think I could ever ask because I don’t know if I could handle the answer to something like that. But I will say that the journey itself was very treacherous for them. And yeah. I think my mom was about in her early twenties. My dad was in his early twenties, too. So, certainly their–them entering into their twenties was a very turbulent time.

00:07:37HO: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I’m sure it was. Was there anyone else around when you were growing up? You had mom and dad. Any grandparents, aunts and uncles, cousins?

00:07:50KIM: Good question. Let’s see. So, my mom’s side of the family was in Illinois for a very brief time and then they eventually moved down to Alabama because it was a big–there was a big seafood industry that was very attractive to a lot of southeast Asians. Some of my family members went to—or my aunt actually moved up to Boston with her husband, my uncle that is. And so, yeah. We did not have many family members in Illinois. So, when my parents couldn’t raise me, they actually had me raised with a babysitter who was from Peru. She was a Peruvian grandmother, you know, and, you know, very loving person. But she actually took me in while my parents were working. And so, I learned how to speak Spanish at a very young age which I really can’t do anymore. But that was the craziness of having every language thrown at you: English, Spanish, Vietnamese, Khmer. So, there was a lot going on, I think. But yeah. I did not have much of a family presence outside of my parents.

00:09:01HO: Okay. You mentioned your dad came over here, or he escaped from Cambodia with a few other men. What about his family back there?

00:09:09KIM: You know, his family—Like my dad’s side of the family actually lived in the southern part of Vietnam. And so, they escaped separately. And so, they ended up moving down to Florida. But yeah. It–yeah. Their escape was also traumatic, too. I mean there was—you know, being in Thai refugee camps where they landed was not a very pleasant experience, you know. Some of my cousins who went through the Vietnam war during that time, you know, they experienced some very traumatic experiences, you know, dead soldiers lying on the pathway to, you know, being mistaken for being Vietnamese because the Cambodians were, during the Khmer Rouge genocide, were coming into Vietnam, trying to reclaim part of their land back. Because that was part of Cambodia, below the Mekong Delta. And so, they had to very careful about that, even though their identity is ethnically Cambodian. There was confusion of who’s who. Are you Vietnamese or are you Cambodian? And so, that was also the danger that my dad’s family experienced.

00:10:30HO: Have you been in touch with any of the family who escaped from Vietnam on–from your dad’s side?

00:10:36KIM: Um, not very often, not very often. I do have an uncle, you know. I’ve been remembering that story, you know. I think that was a very challenging experience, to know what it was like to be in a Thai refugee camp. My aunt, his then-wife who, had passed on, my aunt, she went through a lot, you know, being in that Thai refugee camp, and just having experienced a lot of, you know, abuses there. And my cousins, they’re—my older cousins, they’re in their fifties now. And so, they have some vivid memories of it, and that was not very pleasant.

00:11:17HO: Mm-hmm. Do you feel like you—I mean you were obviously born here, in the American suburbs without having gone through any of those experiences yourself. Do you feel like you carry those stories with you? Like do you–have they affected you viscerally?

00:11:38KIM: That’s a great question. So, you know, I used to–I’ve asked myself this question many times. I think it has. I think that I see that trauma carry over into my life because, you know, the way my parents raised me was sometimes out of fear. It was out of paranoia. It was also out of irrationality. I don’t know if that’s a word. But it was not a very healthy way of raising me and my brothers with that frame, (makes a circling motion in the air with his left hand) with that mindset. And even though I’ve never lived through it, I feel like it–I feel like the history comes back and it reminds me of what’s going on. It’s always a reminder of their pain and why I am that hope. Why my brothers are that hope for them. And that was hard to carry that because, you know, you’re carrying this burden to lift their hap–to give them some level of happiness, some level of closure. It’s very hard because I’m not the one–I’m not the recipient of that trauma. However, I am also the product of my parents’ trauma in a way. Like I don’t know if it makes any sense. Because in a way like I’m not a recipient of the war. But I am a product of my parents’ convergence together. It’s–my parents—I think about this a lot. Like if I did not—If they did not have to go through this torture, through this systemic violence and what have you, I would not be here, you know. This existence would not—I would not be existing right now. So, I do think about that part a lot. It’s like what do I want to do with this history behind me. What do I do with ancestry that’s behind me too. How do I create something here in the U.S., you know? Because my parents—It was a struggle for them to create something here that actually gave them some level of hope or some level of happiness. And that’s something that they really couldn’t find because their mode has been into survive, and that they saw us as the product of their labor. Like okay, you know what? I don’t know if the happiness is going to exist for me, but I’m going to find my brothers like to make sure that their lives are better. But it came at a cost. Yeah.

00:14:44HO: What cost would that be?

00:14:46KIM: I think it came at a lot–it came at a big price for them. Because my parents, in order for them to live into a decent suburb, they worked a lot of hours. It was very be–it was just very difficult, right. So, I think for my mom she worked sixty hours, seventy hours a week. My dad, you know, before he got let go, he was doing the same thing, too. And so, it affected their health. I mean their jobs were not easy because, you know, my dad was working in a factory. My mom was working in an assembly line. It is an ongoing process of their work. It’s non-stop. It’s a real challenge for them to navigate this kind of work without that kind of rest that’s needed for this–the labor. So, yeah. I think it affected them with their health. My dad, when he got laid off, it was devastating to him. Like that part of identity was ripped away. He did not know what to do with himself. And he just could not work anymore. And I felt like because–not only because he couldn’t find anything else that actually worked and paid him the way he was getting paid, and he was getting paid pretty well from a union level. The level work that’s required was very physical. It was very demanding and I think it traumatized him. For my mom, she had a stroke at work, 2012. Yeah. So, all I can say is that their production sacrificed their health and their mindset. So, yeah. In order for us to live a very productive life, this was the res–this was their labor in order for them to create that. So, I’m very cognizant of that and an example of that would be that I got into a full ride scholarship at U.I.C. (University of Illinois at Chicago) through my mom’s work. But that also came at a price. Came at a price for my mom’s labor. Came at a price for her to take pay cuts all the time. For my dad, you know, we live in a pretty comfortable suburb in Westmont. And we did not have to deal with other southeast Asian refugees that were dealing with gang violence and poverty. And we did not have to go through the social safety nets early on. So, we were very much in a good position. But it required so much out of them to do that.

00:17:49HO: Thank you for sharing that. Tell me about–tell me about your childhood and what it was like for you. It sounds like mom and dad were at work all the time, and you didn’t really have a strong family presence like extended family.

00:18:05KIM: If—Yeah. It felt like a lonely period time, I think. Yeah. I think it felt like a very isolating experience because I was not around a lot of kids. I had my brothers but I did not know how to be a big brother in a sense. I was only–there were–I was only like less than two and a half years older than them. And for me, I didn’t really want siblings because I kind of wanted the attention and I didn’t feel like I had enough of it. And so, that was hard. And also because they were twins, they got a lot of attention, you know. I think that kind of made it difficult for me to deal with. So, yeah. I was a very shy kid growing up. I was very cautious around kids around my age. I don’t know exactly why. But I just knew that I was not around them growing up. And I think that might have affected my relationship, the trust. It affected my relationship to get along with peers. And that was hard. That was a very hard time. But I would say my childhood was very isolating. I did not mind being around adults, funny enough. And I think it’s because they gave me that kind of attention in some way, you know. It kind of–and I kind of needed that. So, I think that’s the best way I can, you know, sum up my childhood.

00:19:29HO: Okay. So, are you saying that you liked being around adults more than kids because you weren’t getting attention from the adults that—

00:19:37KIM: I think I was getting more attention from the adults. But I think there’s something about the language itself. Like I was also growing up around adults, too. I think that’s kind of why it was easier for me to be around. But around kids, there weren’t very many. I mean there just weren’t many around the school block, around my neighborhood. And it felt awkward, too, you know. And it–I–and also, I think it didn’t help that I was one of the very few Asian kids, too. So, certainly I think that had something to do with it. Yeah.

00:20:07HO: Okay. We’ll definitely come back to that—being one of a few Asian kids. But tell me like what you did as a kid like you were pretty shy you said. Were you more like reading books at home by yourself? Or like what were your—

00:20:22KIM: Yeah. I think I was kind of like reading books. I was basically playing by myself a lot. I played by myself a lot. So, yeah. I just did not feel comfortable interacting with other kids at that time. It took me a long time to get consid–to get some level of that. I don’t think it happened in elementary school, you know. But I did read a lot.

00:20:44HO: What were your–some of your favorite books? What comes to mind?

00:20:46KIM: You know, I would read, funny enough, like maybe in third grade, I started reading encyclopedias. I was such a geek for history. So, I would always read. And so, I would always get nav—I always felt navigated by that. So, it was kind of something I took a lot of joy doing, yeah.

00:21:05HO: Mm-hmm. Cool. And what about music? I know you’re into music. And you’re a concertgoer. What bands and artists stand out to you during that time period?

00:21:13KIM: Oh, yeah. Probably–it probably didn’t happen until junior high but for me it was Mariah Carey. It was Madonna. It was Janet Jackson. Those were the triangle of divas. And, but that–they were certainly people I listened to. Then there was, you know, my little rock phase with Smashing Pumpkins and Red Hot Chili Peppers. And so, yeah. I—And hip-hop music too. But anything that was like on the radio station, B-96, that was my go-to, yeah.

00:21:41HO: Okay. B-96. Is that station still in existence?

00:21:43KIM: It’s still there but I haven’t listened to that station in a long time. It’s a very different format, I guess, so—

00:21:48HO: Yeah. Sure. Okay. Um, okay. I just want to hear more about your childhood. So, I’m going to ask some probing questions. But if you want to go off on tangents, feel free. And also if any of these questions are just like not—If you have no answer, that’s fine, too.

00:22:07KIM: Yeah, yeah.

00:22:08HO: What—So, did you have any influential teachers?

00:22:12KIM: I did. I did, actually.

00:22:13HO: Okay. Great.

00:22:14KIM: Yeah. Oh, gosh. This might get me emotional. Because this was such—But this is a story I definitely want to talk about. Yeah. I had a couple of really good teachers actually. Yeah. Well, one was my speech therapist, Mrs. Gaul (Roxanne Gaul). I still keep in touch with her. Then there’s my ESL teacher, Mrs. Hodek (Jean Hodek). I, you know, keep in touch with both of them very much. And they took me in under their wings, you know. They were the people that I trusted very early on since kindergarten. Like I had a hard time trusting people, trusting my peers. For some reason, I trusted them and I think it’s because they gave me the individual attention. They gave me the love, the nurturing that I needed. I have to say that my parents couldn’t do that, but they were just not always present. But they were the first ones to really do that. And they were with me the entire duration, you know, to this day. I mean they’re people I still keep in touch with. Um, (pats his upper chest with his right hand) sorry. Mrs. Nilan. This is a special story for me. She was my third-grade teacher. First and second grade I was struggling, you know. And somewhere along the line with third grade, she saw my potential. And I think this is kind of where I started to really grow and flourish under her tutelage. You know, she used to say something that I would always remember. And it was “Good, better, best. Never let it rest, until your good is better, until your better is your best.” We used to repeat that as a mantra every day in class. And very welcoming, very inclusive, very loving, very loving, you know. So, I would say that she was a big inf–she was a huge, huge impact on my life. Like profound impact on my life. It’d be like over the years I would get to learn more about her as a teacher, you know. Like I remembered when I was going to secondary education for a brief time, she allowed me to observe her class. And it allowed me to see it as an adult, as a young adult, to see how she navigated that class. And I was like— Like she would never say “You’re wrong.” She would always allow people to share their answers before she actually made her response, you know. And so, she had a way of making you feel very welcome. And she was very passionate about her work as a teacher. Very funny, very witty and charismatic. And so, a couple of years ago, she had–was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. So, about a year ago, I decided to visit her actually. You know. And I had no idea that she was going to remember me. So, she l—was—she’s currently living in Minne–like in St. Paul, Minnesota. And so, I wanted to (sighs) pay a visit to her because when I found out that she had dementia, she had early onset Alzheimer’s or dementia, I hadn’t seen her for several years. And I just felt like I needed to give her her flowers. I just needed to give her my thanks. Because she really helped me a lot as this refugee kid, as this–as seeing me grow up as an adult, seeing me become a teacher in South Korea. So, she was there for a lot of my milestones. And I felt like, as hard as it was for me to try to visit her in that circumstance, I felt like I owed that to her. I felt like I owe something to make her feel better. So, to make her day, you know. That was the goal, you know. I don’t have the expectation that she was going to remember me. So, last year I drove up to Minneapolis, in St. Paul, and I decided to visit her in her assisted living and, you know, I was actually terrified. I had my flowers. I was shaking. I was like I don’t know what I’m going to do. Because I had a friend of mine who was going to come join me and she is a care worker. So, she—And also was my childhood grade school friend that went to school with me too. And when she got Covid and she’s like “I can’t go” then I was like oh, my god. It's up to me to just do this visit. And I’m like I’m scared out of my mind because I don’t know if she’s going to get agitated, if it’s going to scare her that she’s seeing a random stranger that she doesn’t recognize. And she hadn’t seen me in like six years. And so, you know, it’s not a good situation. So, I knocked on her door and, you know, the–her mouth just dropped open. And she was like “I remember you” is what she said. And I was like—And I was not prepared for that. I was like wow; she actually remembers who I was. And she started asking me—The first question she asked me is “How is your mom doing?” Because the last time she saw me was with my mom. And so, I kind of knew right then and there that she actually remembered who I was, like just the face, the way she reacted. It’s like, okay, this is very–this is a very genuine reaction. And when I talked to her and I was holding back, I was crying. I was like having tears. I was like—I was not prepared for that. I was not prepared to have that kind of redirection of the conversation. I was just going to say “Well, how are you?” I mean and try to work with her where she’s at. And then I decided it’s like you know what? I had to thank her, you know. “You really helped me a lot.” So, you know, it made her day to hear that, you know. It’s like I said “You know, you really made my week” is what I said to her. And she’s like “You made my week, too.” And you know, it was very special. It was a very much needed visit because I needed to thank her. I needed—I don’t know how long she’s got left. But I just needed to at least put the exclamation mark in that chapter, you know. It’s like, you know, this is what you’ve done for me and I’ve got to make sure that you get your flowers, you know. So, that was very powerful for me to have that moment. Yeah.

00:28:32HO: That’s beautiful.

00:28:33KIM: Yeah. Thank you for that question.

00:28:34HO: Yeah. And that was Mrs. Nilan?

00:28:37KIM: Yes.

00:28:38HO: How do you spell that? N—

00:28:40KIM: N-I-L-A-N.

00:28:44HO: What’s her first name?

00:28:45KIM: Sharon.

00:28:46HO: Sharon Nilan. And you also mentioned Mrs. Gaul and Mrs. Hodek?

00:28:49KIM: Yes. G-A-U-L.

00:28:51HO: G-A-U-L.

00:28:53KIM: And Hodek is H-O-D-E-K.

00:28:56HO: D-E-K. Thank you. Names are very important.

00:28:59KIM: Yeah. Thank you.

00:29:03HO: Did you—So, you’re really involved now in the community.

00:29:07KIM: To an extent, yeah. I could say, yeah, to some extent. I don’t think I’m as involved as I’d like to be. But you know—

00:29:13HO: Okay. Okay. We’ll get to that. But how involved were you back then when you were a kid and growing up?

00:29:17Not at all. Nope. Mm-mmm. Nope.

00:29:20HO: Okay.

00:29:21KIM: I did not. I did not. I was very isolated.

00:29:24HO: Okay. Was part of that—I’m sure part of that was just circumstantial. But was it also self-imposed, maybe, because you were not—or was it self-imposed at all in any—

00:29:38KIM: At any point in my life? Self-imposed. Probably in my twenties I was. Because I felt the language loss very much. I felt ashamed of that. I—

00:29:48HO: Language loss?

00:29:49KIM: Yes. Language loss, language shame, you know. Just not feeling like I’m enough, you know. I’m not—I don’t feel like I’m Vietnamese enough. I don’t feel like I’m Cambodian enough. So, I just did not feel like I wanted to be venturing on those spaces. And I went to U.I.C. for my undergrad. And so, it had a predominantly mix of Asian students, but I was not around many of them. I was an English major, so I did not have a lot of Asian colleagues or classmates to hang around with. So, yeah. It—yeah. So, it–I think that there was a lot of—I don’t want to say “self-loathing” but of being Asian, but I think that I was very guarded about who I let in. I just did not feel like I was enough and I’m not going—And I felt like I had to protect myself from being in those spaces where I may not be welcomed at all. So, yeah. I think it took me until my–until I went to Korea and then coming back, I felt like I needed that community. You know, after being in Korea, it’s like, you know, I really feel like I need to explore and adventure on to that identity more, because I did not fit into white spaces. I did not fit into the spaces I was forcing myself into. And that was the upbringing that I was raised in, a predominantly white community. And I just realized that that was not cutting it for me. I felt like I needed to step outside my comfort zone and go there.

00:31:34HO: Okay. I want to go back to what you mentioned about language loss. So, not speaking Vietnamese or Khmer —is that what you meant?

00:31:45KIM: Yeah. That’s correct.

00:31:46HO: Okay. So, did–was it people from those communities that made you feel that way,that you were not enough?

00:31:55KIM: Relatives, family members, parents, you know. I was very angry, and also, I think as a teenager I was very angry, you know. I felt like I was not seen as enough. So therefore, fuck it. I don’t want to be a part of that community and so I definitely felt that in some ways, internally. So, yeah. I think that, you know, from family friends. So, I certainly saw where I lacked, and it was very present.

00:32:34HO: What would people say to you if I can ask?

00:32:37KIM: Hhmmm. Well, it’ll always start–it’d be “you should.” So, that’s one that happens a lot (circles his right pointer finger in the air, signifying repetition). And I was in a very rebellious part of my life where it’s more like “Yeah, I should but I don’t. I won’t. And do I?” you know. So, I–that’s how I responded to a lot of it. (raises his head with chin in the air) It’s like I know where my—I kind of know where my place is but I know that my place is not within those spaces because I know that not being able to communicate definitely puts me in a very–at a big disadvantage. But also, because what my elders were wanting (circles his right hand in the air for emphasis) is not my reality because that’s not how I was raised. The environment I was raised in was very assimilating, so it’s like if I want to be successful, if I want to be able to survive in being in America, then I’m going to have to ride that wave rather than, you know, riding on my parents’ communities because I don’t think they could survive in a sense. And I say this not in a mean, demeaning way. It’s because I have seen them struggling to survive, you know, and it’s like why do I want to struggle?

00:34:15HO: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, it sounds like you really have had a backbone, from a young age. Like you didn’t just kind of bend over the wave. I feel like a lot of Asian Americans—

00:34:22KIM: I feel like I didn’t—I feel like I did not have a choice. I feel like I did not have a choice. But I felt like I did not have a backbone for a—growing up until I had to grow up some thick skin, you know, early on as a teenager and into my early adulthood. And I, you know, I found people that did in a way understand me like, you know, teachers definitely had some understanding of me. And so, I sought to seek their wisdom. If you—so to speak. But they also don’t have the full lens (motions to the left with his left arm) of my family’s experience and my intersectional identities. So, yeah. I think that also being a queer person, I was not out during that period of time. Certainly, it also kept me away from community spaces. So, I was very guarded. I felt like I had to protect myself and therefore I had to grow a backbone.

00:35:19HO: Uh-huh. Yeah. Can you tell me about your relationship with your parents, then and now?

00:35:27KIM: You know— Then (sighs) it goes back and forth. Um, I would say with my mom, you know, we’re closer. I mean, yeah. I know you’ve met my mom and, you know, and recently. And (sighs) you know, ever since her stroke, I have been very aware about the mortality. I’ve been very aware about how long she’s got. I’m going to turn forty in June, and I know that there’s going to be a time when she’s not going to follow me the rest of the journey–the rest of my journey. Is it hard? Yeah. Absolutely. I mean I wonder what that would look like. I wonder what am I going to lose? I’m going to lose the cooking, perhaps. I’m going to lose the access to the Vietnamese culture. It’s like reading Crying in H Mart. I don’t know if you’ve read that book, but that first chapter there is like a hodge-podge of everything I do fear, you know. Going into a grocery store when your mom’s gone and having these memories just come up. Oh yeah. I think about that. It’s like go—am I going to go to a grocery store and think about that mortality and think about what I’m losing and what I’m not going to experience anymore, you know, moving forward. I do think about that. I would say that it has gotten better. I think for a long time I did not trust my mom because I felt like she had to be agreeing with my dad out of necessity. And my dad, you know, my dad was very difficult. He was very stern. He was very challenging to be around. He can also be loving at times, too, which makes it very conflicting because I’ve been experiencing both. I’ve experienced love in a way that was both loving and caring and also abusive. So, it made—I kept my guard up, you know, for a very long time with my parents. And I had to fight for what I wanted to do with my life, you know. I had to fight to get into a different major which did not please them. I knew that I was never going to please them. So, I’m going to have to do things the hard way. I had to–I felt like I had to do things alone. Even with my mom’s help with college, which was a big help, I wanted to prove that I could do this without their help. In some ways, I have been able to, not out of resentment but out of like this is a necessity for me. I see a way that’s different for me. I may not be a lawyer. I may not be successful like from a financial venture, but I am more fuller. I am more grounded. I have made incredible friends and a lot of it has to do with my rebellion. It comes from having to be brave and to navigate into some very difficult waters with them, especially when it meant costing my relationship with them. My dad is a very complicated person because he went through so much hell and back. There was a time when I moved out of Rogers—when I moved out of Westmont to Rogers Park for a couple of years and I didn’t talk to them for any of those years. And I knew that my dad’s mental health went south very quickly after that. And it wasn’t until an emergency situation had to happen where I had to intervene, and my dad needed to get medical help for that. And so, our relationship did improve for a little while but, you know, I think (sighs) as time went on my dad had a hard time trusting me because I had to be the one to put him through intervention which was against his own will. And with that said, he and I have this respectful space (rotates his hands in a circular motion). We could be civil to each other, but we just don’t have a relationship, you know. It’s existence. It’s in a very existing relationship that—it’s a relationship that exists but not in a transparent, in a very exchanging kind of way, you know. So, it was very tough. My dad and I are alike in many ways. We’re both very stubborn and we’re both very combative. We’re also, you know, very curious and we both like to tell stories, in a way. So, there’s similarities in us, good and bad. And sometimes that dynamic hits very hard between both of us.

00:40:53HO: Yeah. Yeah. And you currently live with your—

00:40:57KIM: I do. I do, you know, because both of my parents have needs. You know, my dad definitely has mental health needs, so I need to be there to make sure that, you know, he’s okay. And he’s usually okay when I’m around. My mom, on the other hand, you know, she has her needs. You know, she is very independent yet, you know, you’ve seen her. But, you know, she definitely certain—she has mobility issues that require me to stick around a little bit.

00:41:23HO: Yeah. Okay. It’s really nice of you to be there with them and be a dutiful son. Tell me about the Vietnamese community that you grew up with, or lack thereof.

00:41:42KIM: I think lack thereof. I mean I know Asia on Argyle has been my access to it. This is kind of where I do–am familiar with what’s going on with the community. I would describe it as a sense of appreciation now. Back then, I used to not want to go there because it felt like it was a far drive from Westmont to here.

00:42:06HO: How far of a drive was it?

00:42:07KIM: Um, you’re talking about close to an hour.

00:42:09HO: Close to an hour! Oh, my goodness. Okay. Did you–did your parents come down here to do grocery shopping?

00:42:15KIM: Yes. All the time. And this place was more bustling back in the day. I mean it was bustling.

00:42:22HO: Where would you go?

00:42:23KIM: Việt Hoa (Viet Hoa) and Tại Nam (Tai Nam). And I can’t remember the other grocery store (motions behind him with his right hand) that’s since closed. But that’s another place too.

00:42:30HO: And anywhere else? Like would you go out to eat on Argyle?

00:42:33KIM: We went to Ba Lẹ (Ba Le) back when it was an old, old shop when it used to be an old hole-in-the-wall. Hard to believe but, you know, that was that time. But, you know, the–but yeah. We hung around there quite a bit. So, that was my access to the Vietnamese community. As far as like making friends, I did not have that experience.

00:42:54HO: Did that—When did that start changing for you? Because I know now you have a Vietnamese community. When did it start to shift?

00:42:59KIM: I think for both communities it–probably when I came back to Chicago from Korea. Yeah. That’s when I started to get involved with i2i, which is a LGBTQAPI org. I was living in Rogers Park and met a lot of queer Asian friends of mine, and some happened to be Vietnamese. One was–is a close Khmer friend of mine. So, that’s how the ball started rolling in that direction. Mm-hmm.

00:43:33HO: And what did your trip to Korea have to do with this shift?

00:43:39KIM: Oh! I think a lot, actually. Up until I was twenty-five years old before I left for Korea, I was in mostly white dominated spaces. Being in Korea—and the reason why I went—it’s a long story but when I was looking for jobs back home, it was a struggle. I wanted to go into media and communications. I was striking out everywhere I went. And it was such a pain. And then I was like I don’t know if I have any hope being in the U.S. I started to look into teaching abroad as an option. I had briefly got into a secondary program, wasn’t very satisfied. I was thinking, you know, maybe I should give this a shot. Vietnam was my first choice. But then I realized that they were not interested in finding Vietnamese American people to teach. They wanted white people to teach. That was my experience. And I was very devastated by that. It’s like, this is awful, and I felt like this was my one chance that I could actually have to be connected in some way, you know. And, but one of the TOEFL recruiters—TOEFL is like “Teaching English as a Foreign Language”—well, the program actually told me about, well, Korea was an option. And Korea had a big opening for the English teaching program. So, long story short, it was the first time I was around other Asian expats. There’s a few that are Vietnamese, one of them became a close friend of mine. He was like my neighbor.

00:45:34HO: What’s his name?

00:45:35KIM: His name is Tony (Hùynh) (Tony Huynh).

00:45:36HO: Tony?

00:45:37KIM: Yes. He—Yeah. We were like brothers for that year, and I was there for three years. I started realizing how white expats became more obnoxious. I just did not want to be around them as much. But I saw that there was an Asian expat community of teachers and I felt like I related to them in some ways. We related to the diaspora. We related to the fact that we were around the same age, and that our upbringing was in a way similar—language loss, diaspora, suburbia.

00:46:17HO: Were they Asian American or Asian?

00:46:19KIM: Yes. Asian American and some were Asian Australian, Asian Canadian, Asian British. So, it was a very good experience to have that. I was like, gosh, now I know what it feels like to be in that space. And I felt that once I come back home, I’m going to make that effort to be in those spaces, Asian American spaces. And because I felt like now I know what it’s like and I don’t feel that I could turn back. And I was about to turn thirty, you know. It was like I feel like I needed to make that shift in my life.

00:46:57HO: That’s a really big shift. Do you think you were a pretty different person when you came back?

00:47:02KIM: Yes, I did. Yeah. For many reasons. As a teacher, I never realized that I would be looked up to in some kind of way. And I felt like I did not realize that I would have to be responsible for the people in my–in that I would be teaching for. And I realized that that was very important. So, I realized that I don’t want to just live recklessly. I wanted to live with a level of responsibility. And I think that was a big shift for me. I also realized how important it was for me to understand my identity as a queer, Viet-Khmer American. I needed to own that before the narratives of that owns me. I wanted to control that narrative. I wanted to show this is who a person of those identities can mean. And I wanted that to come out in a way that’s on my agency, you know. And I felt like that was very important.

00:48:10HO: Yeah. Yeah. When did you come out?

00:48:18KIM: I think there’s been different periods that I’ve come out as. I don’t think there was a specific year. There really wasn’t. I’d say it was more official once I hit thirty which is a kind of a while ago, which is like about a decade ago. I think because I was so protective of my personal life for so long that it was very hard for people to kind of get a sense of who I was. And I wanted people to—or I wanted my friends to know that in order for me to be a safe person, I need to be safe to myself. I need to be safe too about the identities that live within me. How do I create safeness, you know, without fear, without prejudice, without having to internalize that? So, I wanted to be a safe person to other people. And in order for me to do that, I had to be safe to myself. So, I think that’s what prompted me to be more transparent about who I am and who I’ve been all along.

00:49:32HO: Yeah. I really like the way you put that, being safe to other people. Being safe to yourself. That makes total sense and I never thought about it that way before. So, can I ask when you came out to your parents? Or if you came out to your parents?

00:49:48KIM: Mmm, we haven’t had much discussion to be honest with you. My mom knows and that was like several years ago. My thing is I think she accepts that reality that I’m not going to give her grandkids which has never been my goal. I don’t know if she could handle me being in a relationship because I’ve, you know, have not—I have been in many short relationships but never anything that substantial. I don’t know if she–how she would handle that reality. I don’t know if that’s–if she is fearful of the fact that I may no longer take care of her or whatever. That’s not the case. But we haven’t had that discussion in a long time. You know, it kind of reminds me of the book Ma and Me by Putsata Reang who talks about that sort of her coming out, you know. Her mom initially accepted it but did not want her getting married to a woman, you know. So, that was a lot of struggle back and forth. And I kind of wonder—that same scenario—am I afraid? No, I don’t think I’ve ever been afraid, to be honest with you. I’m kind of confrontational about how stubborn I am and at the same time I also don’t like to be that way either because I feel like it’s such a draining energy. And I like to live in a way that is very peaceful, you know. But I also know that if that time comes, then it will come, you know. I’m not going to force the issue. For my dad, I don’t think I have that relationship for him, with him, for me to even care, you know? It’s like sometimes there’s a part of me that would probably do it out of revenge. But that’s not the way for me to do that. Yeah. I could say that my coming out has been very, very complicated but it seems like everyone else knows and very openly because my relatives see my Facebook. They see my social media. I’ve been very out in front about my experiences. And if you don’t like it, then find someone else to follow.

00:52:01HO: Yeah. I think that’s very brave of you, if I can say that.

00:52:11KIM: I think it’s both brave, but it’s also necessity. It’s the way I live my life. I need to confront a lot of discomfort that people have about me or that I have about myself. I have to do that. It’s a necessity in order for me to be my best self, to be transparent, to be authentic. And I can’t live without the authenticity because I know that when I don’t have my authenticity with me, it’s a struggle. That was a struggle for me in my childhood. I did not know where I was belonging, and I felt like I wanted to fit in and assimilate. And realizing that that created more harm. Don’t want to go to that place. You know? I’ve been there. Not a good place for me to be in.

00:53:04HO: Is there anything you’re still working on confronting today?

00:53:07KIM: (sighs) I think I have to confront the fact that as I’m getting older, I have to confront the fact, you know, that I’ve seen friends of mine who have lost their parents, you know. I feel like I have to confront the day that, you know, my parents aren’t there. Or the fact that people older than me are not going to be around. I do think about that part because I know that I’m going to be gatekeeping a lot of that history, the history that I have accumulated. And I’m going to be—And it’s also what do I do with history? How do I want to share that? How do I want to present myself? What does my involvement with the community look like as I get older? You know. So, it’s—I think it’s too soon to tell but it’s certainly something I think about.

00:54:13HO: Thank you for your honest answers. I’m just marinating on them and trying to see like where I can jump off.

00:54:18KIM: Sure!

00:54:19HO: Do you—This is related to your last answer, but it’s not going to sound like it. Do you feel like you and your parents know each other?

00:54:31KIM: That’s a great question.

00:54:32HO: Like do you feel like you know each other on a personal level?

00:54:35KIM: I don’t, to be honest with you. I think—I don’t think anyone’s asked me that question before. But I really don’t—I try to give—especially my mom—I try to give her more bits and pieces, you know, that I feel comfortable sharing, like when I went to L.A. recently, like earlier this year. It was great for her to see you. It was great for her to see my friend Kenneth (Nguyễn) (Kenneth Nguyen). You know, other aspects of my life, you know. I’ve done that, you know, in some tangible way, because I at least don’t want to completely guard myself. But I think I’ve had such a hard time because I’ve always guarded my family life and my personal life very separately, for a really long time. So, old habits die hard. I think I don’t know if it’s very judgment, but I do fear my friends, you know, being hurt by what my mom or dad might say, you know, by whether it’s by intention or not, you know. Especially when I have a lot of queer and trans friends, you know. I wonder how she would feel about my friend who became a trans man recently and you know I thought about that because I’m like I feel like I want to protect my friends from harm, you know. Because I know that I have not done enough work to get them to understand identities and experiences that they don’t have knowledge of. Yeah. I don’t think we know each other as well as we could. And I feel like with time ticking and still not getting the full depth, the full scope of their experiences, I don’t know how many questions I’m going to be walking around with for the rest of my life. So, yeah, I do think about that part and, you know, my mom doesn’t really know that I have a podcast. I choose not to, because I feel like that work is very personal. I feel like it really gets into the weeds, and I don’t know if she quite understands that. I think maybe it’s because I feel that when it comes to my work, I want people to understand that. And if you don’t understand it, it’s a lot of labor for me to have to explain it. I don’t think I’m the most patient person out there. I feel like I am not as willing to give as much grace as I should. But I value that work as being very sacred, you know, and why I have to hold such value for it and it’s hard and if anyone doesn’t understand that, it’s like well, (motions with his right hand as if to throw something away) I don’t know what to say.

00:57:36HO: Is your mom as guarded as you are?

00:57:38KIM: She can be. She can be, yes. And my dad is very guarded, too. So, I think that there’s habits, you know. I think there’s–there are–I think that those are dynamics that come into play. And my brothers are the same way too. They are very guarded as well.

00:57:54HO: Okay. Okay. I think my family’s the same.

00:57:58KIM: Yeah.

00:57:59HO: Yeah. Tell me about the queer Asian American community.

00:58:08KIM: You know, I think it’s evolving. Definitely i2i was a very big community for me. I made so many friends. I learned so much about my identity. I used to learn so much about others’ identities and their experiences. I’d say it’s the queer Asian community that I belong to for a number of years where I’ve grown into my friendships with and some I’ve kind of like left behind in some way, whether it’s through time or what not. I learned a lot about social justice work. I learned about self-care. I learned about different tools that betters selves as people, as individuals, as a collective. And so that’s something I’ve learned about that community. And I will always be thankful for that, for those–for that expansion of my tool kit. And I think that is something I’m very thankful for, for that community. And, yeah, they’ve taught me a lot. I can definitely say that without them, I would not be as empathetic as I am now. And my work on empathy is still growing, it’s still working, it’s a work in progress. But it’s certainly better off than it was a decade ago before I came into those spaces.

00:59:41HO: Mmm. Okay. Are there any people in particular that you want to mention by name who have been really instrumental to you as a gay man?

00:59:51KIM: Yeah. I have this–I have to thank Nebula Li for that.

00:59:54HO: Nebula Li.

00:59:55KIM: Yeah. Yeah, he has been very helpful over the years. I’m very thankful for that. I would also like to thank Lyk, L-Y-K Yoeun. She was the one that made me feel safe as a queer Cambodian to be involved in the community because she herself is a queer Cambodian woman. So, I’m very thankful to her for that. Joy Messinger, a Korean American adoptee, definitely a person that I value as a friend, and someone that I really care about, someone that has really taught me about compassion and has taught me about the work in social justice.

01:00:34HO: What was Lyk’s last name?

01:00:36KIM: Joy Messinger. Messinger as in M-E-S-S-I-N-G-E-R.

01:00:41HO: And Lyk?

01:00:42KIM: L-Y-K. And her last name is Yoeun, Y-O-E-U-N.

01:00:46HO: Y-O-E-U-N. Thank you. That’s great. And then so still on the topic of community, tell me about how do you think people in the Vietnamese American community see you?

01:01:07KIM: Um, hmm. I don’t know if I have a full scope of how they feel about me. I’ve always felt that I’m an open book. So, I think maybe some might see me as polarizing. Some might see me as like a person that they need to be in community with. I think it really depends. I don’t know if I have a good answer for that. I think they see me as relatable. I think they see me as a person that is genuine about the work. I think it’s been done through my podcast. So, I think the work speaks for itself. It depends. And also, you could see that in the guests that I bring in that are also Vietnamese and Cambodian. So, I think that really, you know, shows that I have worked to gain the trust and that that is a priority for me, whenever I do my work, whether my podcasts or as a storyteller or in any–at any platform that I’m being given.

01:02:14HO: Mmm. That’s great. And—how do you want to be seen?

01:02:21KIM: I think I want to be seen as empathetic yet unapologetic. I want to be seen as a person who’s endlessly curious and really is curious enough to lift stories to end the harm that’s been done to our community.

01:02:49HO: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I see you as all those things, Randy.

01:02:52KIM: Oh, thank you.

01:02:55HO: Okay. So, that’s a good segue actually. Let’s talk about your podcast.

01:03:03KIM: Sure.

01:03:04HO: You’ve done a lot in the Asian American community.

01:03:09KIM: Thank you.

01:03:10HO: What led up to making a podcast?

01:03:14KIM: Yeah. So, about four years ago around this time in April, I had been a guest on a few podcasts, the Vietnamese Boat People podcast, Self-Evident, Asian American Stories, and The Gay Asian podcast, which is then–which was then changed to Queer Asian Social Club. And I really enjoyed that experience. And I had been doing some storytelling at that time, but I was working with my former mentor, and she actually told me “I would like to challenge you to do an independent project. I feel that you’re ready to do it.” She was very right because I needed my own platform. I felt like I was starting to find my voice and I wanted to do a podcast that was like a love letter to my younger versions to myself, the 10-year-old that never learned about Asian American leaders and change makers. I wanted to do a podcast as a love letter to my 15-year-old self that had to see Asian Americans as the villains of the story, of the narrative. I wanted to do a love letter—a podcast as a love letter to my 20-year-old version that struggled as a journalism student in a very white dominated space and how that would carry, follow me through my college years. And then the love letter to my closeted self. The love letter to my 25 to 30-year-old something self that was lost between my identities. And so, I wanted a podcast that actually reflected these wants. What could have my 10 to 30-year-old self would have wanted to learn all along, wanted affirmed, wanted validated? And I also saw the need to after working with community members in our Asian community members tell us of their stories. I wanted the podcast to show that Asian Americans are doing things about uplifting their history. Because my brother once told me that he didn’t really see that, and it really irked me. I was like “No. That’s not true. I know that there are people and I hear—here’s the evidence for it.” I wanted to talk to authors. I wanted to talk to activists. I wanted to talk to community members, educators. I wanted to talk to people that are sharing the blueprint of their work but also demonstrating the kind of conviction they have for their community and how they are working to change the landscape. I don’t want it to just be a representation matters nonsense. I want there to be work that’s being done in progress. I want them to—I want our community to have that chance to share their stories and have the agency to do so.

01:06:34HO: That’s wonderful. So, tell me about the early days like when you actually started the podcast. Like what was—Who was your first guest?

01:06:45KIM: It was Etzkorn Wong. Etzkorn, actually, he is a musician, and I met him through my former mentor. And we connected. I remember we connected immediately, well, one because he’s part Vietnamese and his mom also had a stroke or at least something similar to my mom. And his mom nearly, you know, died from that. It was very–It was near fatal. It was like around the same time that my mom had hers. So, we connected almost immediately on that. And I felt like we wanted to talk about what caregiving looks like. And I chose him as my first guest because I felt like this would be an important conversation to talk about. The early days of my podcast was strictly very local, Chicago. I wanted to talk to people locally here and people that I’ve known through my i2i days, you know, people that I knew through Asian Americans Advancing Justice. I wanted to do something that was very intimate that actually lifted the stories of Chicago up first. And that was my focus during that first season. And you were a part of that too.

01:07:58HO: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That was a really great experience.

KIM: Thank you.

HO: And I did—Going back to what you just said about being empathetic and available, I did feel like you were a very gracious host.

01:08:09KIM: Thank you. I think that was very important for me to have, prioritize that. Because it’s not my story. It’s their story. And I want them to be able to drive that story, you know. I want them to have agency to do so. And to do so in a space that feels safe for them to share, that gives them power, and that has—and to know it has impact.

01:08:34HO: How did you feel after your interview with Etzkorn? Like after you had finished the interview and then editing and it was published. How did you feel at that moment? Do you remember?

01:08:49KIM: Um, if I could recall, it was exhilarating. I felt like I had power to share this, you know. I was very eager to share that story. I was very eager to share other people’s stories that season. Like I felt like I had something important to do, you know, important to say. And for a while I had a hard time because I felt like I was latching on to my mentor for a while and I needed to have something of my own that I could be very proud of and that I can gain–that I can earn the respect of my peers. And that I’m doing something that’s part of our community’s history making and our future making. And a podcast is a good platform for that. So, I was very excited to share that episode. I was—It also made me very excited to share and interview other people.

01:09:42HO: Mm-hmm. That’s great. Who were some of your most memorable guests?

01:09:52KIM: Ooof.

01:09:53HO: And why? Like one or two examples.

01:09:55KIM: One or two, okay.

01:09:56HO: Or more if you want.

01:09:58KIM: Oooh. I’m going to—So, the first one that comes up for me is the family of Christian Hall. Christian Hall was the nineteen-year-old Chinese American adoptee who was murdered by police during a mental health crisis. And I decided to interview his family members, his parents, his adoptive parents specifically, and his adopted aunt. And it was very important for me to capture their story because the story that was often told was him being murdered and the last few, sixty seconds of that video where he was murdered in a civilian footage. I had wanted to change that narrative. I wanted to show who was Christian Hall as a nineteen-year-old. What was he like as a son? What was he—What was his struggle like as an adoptee? I wanted the narrative of him to come out first and foremost because I felt like that was our way of understanding who he was behind the mental health crisis that he endured, that he had to go through, that he had to suffer through, and that unfortunately led to his murder by police. And I wanted to capture the full human scope of who he was. And his family was very gracious in doing that. I mean they talked about how he was affected, being an adoptee. Like he wanted to know who his birth parents were, but you know they couldn’t find out, and how that actually created a lifelong struggle for him. They talked about some of his joys, like how he would love to help his own friends and how he would often try to give three dollars when he didn’t even have three dollars. He was that kind of person. And it was very refreshing to see that narrative come out because that was not a narrative that they got to tell about their son to media outlets. So, I was very fortunate to have that. So, I think that was one of my most important episodes because it gave a fuller scope of who he was. But it also gave attention to what happened to him as well. Another interview for me would be Nguyễn Phan Quế Mai (Nguyen Phan Que Mai) who wrote The Mountains Sing and her recently released book Dust Child. She was very gracious, very down to earth. I read The Mountains Sing. It’s beautifully written. Dust Child was very powerful in its own right. And I wanted to talk about the Am–the Amer-Asian children, the mix, specifically Black Vietnamese children that were left behind during the war. And also, we got into a discussion about Cambodians in Vietnam, how they were treated and Que Mai as a Vietnamese person called out the Vietnamese people and the government for its treatment of ethnic minorities including Cambodians and Amer-Asians and that was very powerful. You don’t get to hear that from a Vietnamese person, especially with someone of her stature, of her platform. And she was very gracious in how she talked about the inhumanity that they experienced. And for me that was very validating because I have family members in Camb–in Vietnam that lived in that part of where there’s a lot of ethnic Cambodians. And there is historical erasures happening there. And so, for her to call that out was very important. I was surprised. I did not realize that that was the discussion I was going to have but it turned out to be a very necessary one. So, but I definitely enjoyed her humanity of in her writing and her willingness to shine a light on difficult topics that are very taboo and her willingness to confront that.

01:13:58HO: Yeah. That’s wonderful. I should have started with this question, but your podcast is called “Bánh Mì Chronicles” (Banh Mi Chronicles).

01:14:07KIM: Correct.

01:14:08HO: Tell me about that title.

01:14:09KIM: So, the Banh Mi Chronicles was created—Well, it was actually first created several years ago by, I think, 2016. I was eating at Như Lan (Nhu Lan) with my mom one time, and I was like “You know, it would be kind of nice if I called like my next—” This was before I even thought about podcasts. I would call my next writing piece the Banh Mi Chronicles because I wanted the idea of Banh Mi as like this example of assimilation, of example of Western and Vietnamese fusion and how that is similar to how my upbringing was and how often I have to rattle between those two worlds. And also, banh mi is bread. So, I thought about the idea of breaking bread. So, they—So, in 2019, I decided that I’m going to use that name towards a podcast because I do want to break bread with fellow guests. I also want to demonstrate what assimilation has done, you know, in a way that has affected my guests who have been a recipient of assimilation one way or the other, and how that has impacted us. I don’t want to put it from a narrative deficit but in a way that’s actually kind of like how do we find our voices despite the assimilation, despite the diaspora that we have to endure.

01:15:39HO: So, you’re sunsetting the podcast.

01:15:42KIM: Yes. Sunsetting is a good word for that, yes.

01:15:45HO: May I ask why?

01:15:47KIM: Yeah. I think when I was working on this season after I was coming from a six-month hiatus, I was like something is just not clicking. I’m like I just could not find the second gear to go. I could not find my second gear. I felt like after doing this solo—I’ve done the hosting, I’ve done the scheduling of interviews, I’ve done the writing, the narration, the coordination, promotion, what have you, and I think after four years it kind of wears on you after a while. But, also, I felt like I’ve accomplished everything I wanted to do out of a podcast. Like—And it’s been a great, great journey. I’ve met incredible people along the way, people that I can probably call my friends. I’ve connected with audience members who would also become my friends. I’ve, you know, gotten to speak at universities. I’ve gotten paid opportunities. I’ve gotten tremendous amount of opportunities, and I felt like I’ve done my part. It’s like—And I need something creatively challenging. I need something that’s creatively stimulating. I think creatively stimulating is a better word for it. And after four years, I felt like I’ve done everything I’ve done with this platform. And it’s the right time, you know. And I think when I was working on this season, I just could not find my second gear, even when I had some special guest hosts. And it still wasn’t enough. And I was like, okay, do I end it after this season, or do I go one more season? And I felt like I’m going to go with one more season, because at least that gives me time to figure out what I would like to do after the podcast. And I like to see how things manifest itself now that I’ve put it up to universe.

01:17:38HO: Okay. If you were going to do a podcast again, or a similar media project, what would you do differently?

01:17:50KIM: Oooh. (sighs) As far as another media project, I can answer that question. I would like to start my own newsletter after I’m done with the podcast. I’d still like to do the interview format, except in a written form. I may have the audio format just for purposes for those who are low vision or blind. But I would like to go in that direction. Maybe once a month. Perhaps work on a focus that features BiPOC, extends to the BiPOC and LGBTQIA communities. That would be something I would like to do. But that would be a goal of mine, and I would like to do something of that nature. And similar to the way I’ve done my podcast but except shorter because I want it to be digestible for readers, especially like for a one-hour transcript interview, it’s going to be a lot to deal with, versus a thirty-minute. So, I’d like to do something that’s–that I can play a lot with. But if I had to do another podcast, I don’t know. I say never say never, but because I’m in such a mode right now where I’m ready to sunset it, I just can’t think of any other way that I want to do a podcast. Because if that was the case, then I would be working on another podcast by now.

01:19:14HO: Yeah. That’s fair. That makes sense. Switching gears. So, this is the whole impetus for this oral history project—this question, I guess. What does it mean to you to be a Vietnamese American person?

01:19:41KIM: Well, I would say as a Vietnamese Cambodian person, because I just can’t see myself as simply a Vietnamese person, I think it carries layers. I think it carries a lot of history. It carries complications. I probably won’t get too—I don’t want to dive into the weeds, because I think it’s just going to, you know, get all tangled up. But I would say that it has many layers. It’s not monolithic. It’s–it’s very multilayered. And it’s not just one story. It’s multitudes of stories. And some of those multitudes’ own little strands of stories can connect with other Vietnamese people that are very different from me. But somehow that shared connection can really be very powerful in of itself. But yeah. I think that’s the best way of answering that question, because I don’t know how else to answer that except that it’s a very multilayered, complex identity. But that’s what happens when you live in diaspora.

01:20:48HO: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. I know that was a complicated question, but I really love your answer.

01:20:53KIM: Of course.

01:20:58HO: Do you feel at your core that you are carrying these different identities with you?

01:21:05KIM: I feel it. I definitely feel it. I’m reminded about it in my work. I’m reminded about it in my interactions with people, with my community. I’m also inter—I’m also reminded in my interactions with non-Asian people as well because I know that people see me differently. So, I know that I’m carrying all these identities with me. I don’t see them as burdens as I used to. I see them as assets. I see them as treasures to me.

01:21:38HO: That’s beautiful.

01:21:39KIM: Thanks.

01:21:42HO: Okay. So, that’s a good question, a good segue into my next question. So, the relationship between the Asian American community and the Black community is very complicated.

01:21:51KIM: Mmm. It is.

01:21:52HO: So, I just want to hear. This is not a question per se, but just tell me your thoughts on that.

01:22:00KIM: I value Asian and Black solidarity where we can see it because it does exist. It is very monumental to dismantling white supremacy. And being in this country, especially being in this country where white supremacy has really been the dominant narrative, it is easy to see why Black and Asians have been struggling for solidarity of work. Because of how white supremacy has gotten itself involved in the separation and the dysfunction of that relationship. So, but I’m also at the same time like, you know, assimilation, white adjacency from the Asian community is very real. I want to acknowledge that. That it also does not lead us to liberation. What leads us to liberation is when Black communities are also free, when they can achieve the freedoms that have been evading them for so long. And we are better when they are free. Because that allows our community to be free. That means freedom from police violence. It’s freedom from hate crimes. It’s freedom [of] accessible housing, food, abundant food sources, and what have you. I have seen some hopeful examples. I’ve seen—We do have a Blasian community that no one talks about. I want to credit the Blasian march for doing their work on that. I look at the Black and Asian Alliance Network on Facebook that have done some—that have opened up spaces to have Black and Asian community members be in solidarity. So, I do see where it’s coming from. There is one of my favorite podcast episodes is with Akemi Kochiyama who is Blasian and she’s the granddaughter of the late Yuri Kochiyama, activist icon. Just incredible. And her work—Yuri Kochiyama’s work has been done on Black and Asian solidarity work and for Black freedoms work. Same with Grace Lee Boggs. Two instrumental women that have really showed, modeled examples of what Black and Asian solidarity looks–can look like. But Akemi talks about Yuri’s work for that reason alone, to talk about why it matters and where it exists. I have had Asian folks, men, Asian men specifically, been very angry at me because I support Black Lives Matter work. I think when I had Akemi Kochiyama, I had certain Asian men that DM’ed me and said “Well, I can’t believe you’re doing this.” And my response is why not? This is I think that for a number of reasons the history of Asian and Black solidarity have always existed. It’s existed when Vincent Chin was murdered. Jesse Jackson and the Rainbow Push Coalition worked with Helen Zia and the AAPI community. It happened when Grace Lee Boggs worked with the Black Panthers or same with Yuri Kochiyama and her friendship with Malcolm X. Or we can look at the civil rights leaders like Martin Luther King and Thích Nhất Hạnh (Thich Nhat Hanh) who worked together to try to end the Vietnam war. And Black leaders that wanted–that pushed for the migration of southeast Asian refugees to the U.S. So, there has definitely been very, very important moments where that have existed. So, that’s important for us to remember that. Because if we don’t have that history, the violence between both communities will always continue. And it is my wish that I do my part in that both Blasian, Black and Asian folks, have been doing the solidarity work get to have their work uplifted and be—and that the history that they’re doing, the history making that they’re doing, becomes accessible to these communities. Because without it, it becomes a violent struggle.

01:26:59HO: I knew you would have a very good answer to that question. I just had a feeling. What are your—How are you feeling energy-wise right now, at this moment?

01:27:12KIM: I think I’m doing good.

01:27:14HO: Okay. What are your thoughts on recent or current events relating to refugee and asylum seekers, such as Afghanistan, Ukraine, and people crossing the U.S./Mexico border? Especially coming from us as refugee families.

01:27:32KIM: I think it’s simply history repeating itself. It’s a history that we’re very familiar with. It’s a history that also teaches us that—teaches me that as a product of the migration of that wave, so to speak. It’s important for people like myself to never turn an eye on that, to use that experience to welcome them, to help unpack the trauma that they’ve experienced. How do we lessen the generational trauma that this is going to have on their kids? Because that’s the first thing that comes up, is what are their kids going to inherit as a result of this horrible trauma and how can we as a community tap into that? How do we give space for survivors to tell their stories early on, and to make this normalized? I mean I hate using trauma porn to like gather people’s stories. I really don’t. But I do believe in having them—giving them agency to tell their stories, to be protected, to be given safeness from the community spaces that are giving them that voice or asking them to tell their stories, you know, making sure that they’re compensated, making sure that they’re taken care of. I think that’s very important as storytellers, as people who hold these stories. I would like to see—Yeah. I don’t know if I—I think I’m kind of losing my thought there. Yeah. I’d like to see community members who—refugee communities be able to also share their vision. Because I don’t think that my community was given that choice. They weren’t given the option to talk about well, what do they want to become, you know? I don’t—And this is not a knock on the churches or the refugee groups by any means, but I think it would help if they knew what their talents were, what their goals and ambitions were. Because they all had dreams at one point. And how can we help to use that, you know, instead of just putting them into a factory. Do they want to go to school? Do they want to become a doctor? Do they want to become–to contribute in a way that’s valuable to their vision? So, I think that would also be very important to get that.

01:30:54HO: Yeah. After our family’s migration—how do I put this? So, we tend to—So, you and I were not—You and I were born here. Not in Vietnam or Cambodia.

01:31:15KIM: Correct.

01:31:16HO: So, we’re one step away from the homeland, so to speak. How does culture stay intact when you get further and further away from that with every generation?

01:31:30KIM: I don’t know if that’s (sighs)—Hhhmmm.

01:31:34HO: Or does it?

01:31:36KIM: I think it evolves. I think it evolves because culture doesn’t stay static. Culture is what you make of it. Culture is what you—how you receive it, how you work with it, how you take care of it, how you nurture it. So, yeah. I think it’s–it has to evolve. It can’t stay what it was fifty years ago. I mean without the destruction of the homeland, could we say that Vietnamese culture fifty years ago would stay the same as it was—as same as it would be to now? I don’t think so. So, I’d have to say that it has to evolve. But you have to be–you have to be the one driving the evolvement–the evolving. Otherwise, it will evolve on its own, out of your control.

01:32:31HO: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Does the Vietnamese American in Chicago–the Vietnamese American community in Chicago have a strong hand in that evolution, would you say? I mean you’re clearly a part of it.

01:32:51KIM: Mm-hmm. I think they’re doing it differently. I don’t think it’s a bad thing. Yeah. There are things that I get nostalgic for, you know. I get nostalgic for certain places that have–that are no longer existed because owners have retired and moved on. But I also have to accept the fact that we’re driving the change. But it’s also good change, too. I mean I look at VietFive Coffee in the West Loop. You know, I look at what Tuấn Huỳnh (Tuan Huynh) is doing about with his coffee shop, how he’s bringing the story of his experiences and how he’s turning it into something that’s very special. And it’s very sacred to the story of this coffee shop and what it means. What does Five mean? If you ever get a chance to work with—oh, he’d be a person you would definitely want to interview. But he’s going to be on my show tomorrow. Oh, he’s on my show tomorrow and he’s very profound. But he’s also talking about how he drives the change on his own terms about what he wants to do with the–his narrative. And so, we’re seeing people doing that. I hear this from the Vietnamese Boat People podcast all the time. They’re driving that change. And they’re doing that on their own. So, I think that’s something to take note of. There’s some that will stay distant and not have anything to do with it. That’s okay. But I want to make it okay that whatever stories that we have, it still matters. It still holds true to who we are, and it humanizes us. And we have to humanize our experiences. And that’s part of our culture. It’s part of how once it’s humanized it belongs to us. It’s unbreakable. And it will evolve in our direction in—And it’s going to evolve into something that’s going to be very special.

01:34:56HO: Mmm. Yeah. You mentioned you’re nostalgic for some places that have closed. Tell me, what are those places?

01:35:05KIM: I remember there was a Cambodian music shop that used to be under the viaduct in Asia on Argyle. I can’t remember the name of it. But I remembered going there too—my dad used to buy his cassette tapes all the time over there. I still remember that. There used to be a place called Trung Tín (Trung Tin), used to be where First Sip is now. But that used to be where the—that used to be a place of Vietnamese music where my parents would get their Vietnamese music there. So, I get nostalgic for those specific times because it’s like, you know, that’s where the soundtrack of my parent’s home comes from is through these two stores. It’s very powerful what music can really do. But also, where the source is coming from and how much of that was an identity of this community, too.

01:36:02HO: What was the name of the second?

01:36:05KIM: Trung Tin. It’s T-R-U-N-G T-I-N.

01:36:10HO: T-I-N. Thank you. (sighs) So, let’s talk about you. You just finished grad school. Tell me what you were studying and what your intentions are.

01:36:24KIM: Yeah. I recently graduated at DePaul University with my Masters in Nonprofit Management. And I graduated back in December of last year. And so, currently I work for the Y.W.C.A. I work in board development, communications work, workshop program and also fundraising for our yearly event. So, those are three components of my work. And so, I’ve always wanted to go more into like development and fundraising work because I feel like that fits me. I get in front of people all the time. I love event planning. I love to be able to, you know, create narratives that get people to invest in our organization’s work. And so, that’s why I went to grad school because I wanted to develop that skill set. I wanted to develop my further knowledge of non-profits. So, yeah, it’s been quite a journey. I’m glad to be done with grad school. But I’ve learned a lot from that experience. And I’m very thankful for my professors who invested in my growth during that time.

01:37:28HO: Yeah. That’s great. Are there any professors you want to mention by name?

01:37:31KIM: Oh, yeah. Lisa Dietlin, D-I-E-T-L-I-N. Yeah. She actually helped me get my current job. She connected with her friend who is an executive director of the Y.W.C.A. Strong Families Division program. And yeah, Lisa’s been—I learned a lot from her about when it came to fundraising. I feel like I learned so much from her, you know. She just knew how to find ways to talk to donors and she knew how to, you know, understand donor language and what it means to build relationships and so I learned a lot from her. So, definitely one of my favorite professors.

01:38:15HO: That’s great. And for—Or, what do you—Do you plan to stay at the Y.W.C.A. for a while or do you have other bigger goals in the future?

01:38:29KIM: I think that I will always revisit these situations every few years. I would like to grow with the organization, but I also have to like revisit every few years to see where I’m at, you know. And what does that mean.

01:38:45HO: Mm-hmm. Sure. You never know where life will take you.

01:38:48KIM: Right.

01:38:51HO: I think when you and I met, you were on the board of the Cambodian Museum.

01:38:58KIM: Mm-hmm. Yes.

01:38:59HO: Is that the full name of the museum?

01:39:00KIM: Not the full name but it is what we usually call it, so it’s fine. It’s the National Cambodian Heritage Museum.

01:39:06HO: Okay. Thank you. So, tell me about the work that you did with them and what it meant to you.

01:39:12KIM: (sighs) Let’s see. Well, I’ve been with the board since 2016. And this is going to be my last year. So, I’ve had a pretty long, lengthy run with it. I’ve done community outreach. I have done raising money, volunteering work. So, I feel like I’ve kind of touched on different parts of the museum. I’m not a person—I mean people get the impression that I work as a full-time job. That’s not my job. My job as a board member is to raise money to raise visibility about the museum. But that’s been something that I’ve enjoyed doing because for a while people had no idea that the museum existed, especially even in the Cambodian communities, whether it’s here or in Long Beach or in other places nationally. And so, it’s been kind of fun to be the point of contact, you know. When a Cambodian person is visiting Chicago, they’ll reach out to me and be like “Hey, do you know any other places? I would like to check out the museum. Can you tell me a little bit more about it?” And I’m always happy to have that discussion. And it tells me that, you know, I’m doing my part to raise that visibility day by day and—But yeah. It’s certainly been very rewarding and certainly allowed me to understand the Cambodian community on a national level and also on a local level, too. So, it’s been–it’s gifted me a lot of opportunities, I must say.

01:40:39HO: That’s wonderful. How did you get involved with them to begin with?

01:40:43KIM: It’s a good story. I was approached by my friend Liz. She wanted me to join the board, and I had some hesitations. The reason why I had hesitations was that I felt like I did not do enough work in the community. I was still very insular. I was just not really involved enough. And I wasn’t sure how they would handle a queer Vietnamese Cambodian person in that space. I was very cautious of that. I wasn’t sure how they would—how older board members would feel about that. And I told Liz that I don’t know if I’m that person but I’m going to give—But I—But the funny thing was I was going to visit my dad for the first time in like four years. And I told Liz, “Well, let me tell you this. I’m going to see my dad because I feel like if I have not done any reconciliation of any kind, or attempted reconciliation with my dad, how can I work with the board? If I have not figured that part out, you know?” I felt that was very important. “So, I’m going to tell—Like I’m going to tell you how I feel about it once I visit him and then I’ll give you an answer.” So, when I visited my dad, I actually decided that I also wanted to look at the photo books. I—Something with the photo albums just kept prompting me that I needed to see it.

01:42:21HO: Are these your dad’s photo albums?

01:42:22KIM: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Family and my dad’s too. So, you know, after visiting with my dad and I don’t want to get into that because it’s a whole ‘nother story, but I came back home and I was looking in one of the photo albums. I saw an envelope just drop out. And I looked at it and I was like “Okay. This is interesting.” So, I looked at it. And it was a letter from the U.S. Embassy of Thailand. And it was a thank you letter to my dad. And it was written in 1976. So, it was about a few months after the Khmer Rouge started. And they talk—And it thanked him for helping, I want to say 7500 Cambodian refugees get into the United States. He did that work. He did the vetting to get them in. It was very emotional for me to get that letter, because for a long time I never saw my dad as a heroic figure at any point in my life. I did not. But I felt like as a twenty-two-year-old, so if this is what he accomplished, and he did it with all of the trauma that he went through, he did it for the people. Yeah. I looked at it. I was very overwhelmed by it. So, I wanted to honor him. I wanted to honor that work. Because that letter showed me that he did something that was very special that changed the lives of many Cambodians. There are some Cambodian folks that he knows. I mean my dad doesn’t really talk to them, but they’ll talk to my mom instead. And they still want to thank him. So, I felt like it would make sense to join the board. And that’s how I joined the board. Because I saw that as a sign that I need to continue that work, to honor that. But also, it’s my way of reconciling with myself too.

01:44:21HO: Yeah. Yeah. Wow, what an incredible thing to learn about your dad.

01:44:27KIM: Yep.

01:44:32HO: Second to last question. Unless you say something really interesting, in which I may have to— (both chuckle) I want to know if there are any people in the Vietnamese American community that you really admire, Vietnamese or Vietnamese American.

01:44:51KIM: Hhhmm. There’s just too many. I don’t know if I could even have names because I’m going to miss more. Because if I say a name, I’m going to have even more names. (Ho chuckles) I’m proud of everyone that I’ve come across. I’ve come across poets. I’ve come across authors. I’ve come across educators. I’ve come across people from all walks of life that have really inspired me. And some of them have been fortunate to be my guests on my show that I have been very privileged, very, very privileged to hold their stories and to be that person that they can trust. I’m very proud of them. I’m proud of my family members. Some of them became college graduates for the first time. Some have gone on to get their master’s recently. I’m proud. I’m very proud of where we’re taking this, you know? I’m sure I have my disagreements with other members of the community on a political level, or with the Cambodian community, I know that I have my polarizing moments here and there. But I’m proud as a collective. I’m proud that we are doing our best to honor our family’s history, to advance and evolve our history as well. So, I’m very proud of that.

01:46:18HO: Thank you. Okay. And finally, is there anything I did not ask but I should have asked. Or is there anything you want to add, anything at all for the historical record?

01:46:34KIM: I think historically speaking, I think for the record, I think as I’m about to turn forty, I’m very proud of where—of how long I’ve come a way. I hold a lot of appreciation for myself. And I hold a lot of appreciation for those who have been on the journey with me too and that I’ve learned a lot from. So, been very thankful along the way and it’s been a heck of a journey and I hope it continues on for a long–for a little while longer.

01:47:06HO: Yeah. Thanks Randy! You’ve been really—When I think of Chicago community leaders, I absolutely think of you. Like your name comes to mind, definitely.

01:47:15KIM: Thank you.

01:47:16HO: I mean, when I was living here, you were such an important part of me getting to know the community and being a part of it. So, I appreciate your presence.

01:47:22KIM: Yeah. It’s weird because I never really like to call myself a leader, I never do. But I just happen to do work that just compels me and, you know, if some, for some peop–for some others they see that as leadership, I’m not going to fight that. But, you know, I’m–I’ve been very grateful that has touched people along the way and that people feel compelled to do things similar or do different things because of, you know, what my work has done.

01:47:48HO: Yeah. All right. Thank you, Randy.

01:47:51KIM: No problem. Thank you.