00:00:00SIERRA JENKINS: Today is Monday, April 5th, 2021, at 3:02 p.m. I am Sierra Jenkins at CSU (California State University) San Marcos, and today I'm interviewing Marilyn McWilliams for the Black Student Center Oral History Project, a collaboration of the CSUSM Black Student Center and CSUSM University Library Special Collections. Marilyn, thank you for being here with me today.
00:00:25MARILYN MCWILLIAMS: Thank you, Miss Sierra, for having me.
00:00:28JENKINS: Of course. So we're going to just jump right into it, the questions. First one I have is where were you born? And where did you grow up?
00:00:38MCWILLIAMS: I was born in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, but I was raised in Oakland, California. We moved to California when I was six, six years old. So I was raised in Northern California. In the last 23 years I've been here in Southern Cal.
00:01:03JENKINS: So interesting.
00:01:07MCWILLIAMS: And when you think about that, Sierra, that is like full circle. O, Oklahoma to Oakland. And now I reside in Oceanside. Full circle.
00:01:19JENKINS: Really? That really is full circle (laughs). It was meant to be. So tell me about your childhood growing up in Oakland.
00:01:30MCWILLIAMS: I had a pretty good childhood, growing up. I think we moved to California for better opportunities. My father had graduated from Langston University in Oklahoma and moved the family. I'm the baby of four. And actually, I'm sorry, I'm the baby of five. I found out I had another sister in Oklahoma. She's in Oklahoma, but my father moved the four of us and my mother here, to California for better opportunity. He got a job at a high school, Castlemont High in Oakland. And for me, that's when I started school. I started kindergarten and at the age of six in Oakland and I had a pretty good childhood, never wanted for anything. I considered myself basically growing up middle-class and that was very important for a Black family during that time and when we did move out here, nothing but the best for my father. We moved to the Hills, Oakland Hills and we, I can't say if we were the first Black family in our neighborhood, but if we wasn't the first, we were the second, ‘cause it wasn't many of us in my neighborhood growing up. But I think that my childhood prepared me for you know, what was ahead. My mother worked in civil service and my father in education and, like I said, I've never wanted for anything. And, I had a very good foundation.
00:03:38JENKINS: How did you come to your understanding of Blackness?
00:03:44MCWILLIAMS: Ooh. That's a, that's a pretty deep question. Me. Okay. How did that come to my understanding of Blackness? Let me think on that one. Let's come back to that one, Sierra. Cause that kind of took me off guard. Let me kinda’—
00:04:17JENKINS: Okay. Not a problem. Let me see what it said. And your childhood, what were you taught about in your childhood and adolescence about Black history and the Black experience?
00:04:36MCWILLIAMS: I was taught that we could be anything that we wanted to be. I was taught that education was very, very important in order to get to where you want it to be. School was drilled in us. Like I said, my father was in education. I think it was drilled in us so much so that I wanted to steer away from it. It was just, my father made us like homework, whether or not you have homework in that particular, especially when you got to like junior high, we, back then we had elementary, junior high, then high school, junior high started at ninth grade. Am I aging myself? Cause that's not it now. Junior high started at ninth grade and you had like different classes, six classes. And I remember my father was like it doesn't matter if you have homework in that particular class that night you bringing all your books, all five of your books home and you're going to be studying. So, I know that for me, school wasn't—it was important, but for me it was, I’m kind of over it. So by the time I graduated high school, I knew I had to go to college, but I didn't want to. And so I started working, and I went to a junior college directly out of high school, and I completed one year and then I had a car accident and I took a year off. And once I did that, it was like, who wants to go back? But I did. I went back and I got my AA (Associate of Arts). That was it. In that time, I had fell in love, met this man and fell in love and going away, like out of state to college or anything like that—it just was not in the cards for me. I got my AA. We're talking about back in the early eighties. I think that was ‘81. And it's like, I'm set. I got my degree. I'm set. So I started out on the work field and like I said, my mother worked in civil service, and she had worked there and retired after 25 years. And I said, I could do that. So I got me a civil service job and I said, this is where I'm going to, I can do this. I'm good. And until, did 13 years there until the base closed, and then it's like, oh my God, now, what am I going to do? So the best thing for me to do was to try to get back in college, but I still wasn't feeling it, you know, and I ended up moving here, and remarried, and during that time I had divorced my husband, but I remarried, and I moved down here and after a year down here, I lucked up and got a job at Cal State San Marcos. They had just opened up the Early Learning Center, the first childcare center on campus. So I started working there and when I started working there, it was working as a—just coming in to get the books up and running for the Early Learning Center, and it was an eight-week position. I was hired knowing that it was only a temporary position, that eight-week present position. But after my eight weeks was over, the program director at that time felt the need that they needed someone longer. So then that's where my career at Cal State San Marcos began, and I’m very fortunate to say, 23 years later, I'm still here. What turned out to be an eight-week position into that being 23 years for me and I'm very thankful for that. But I think I detoured from the question you asked me, what was I answering, Sierra? I'm sorry.
00:09:17JENKINS: No problem. That was really interesting. I was asking about, how, what was your taught experience about Black history, experience?
00:09:26MCWILLIAMS: Yes, my, like I said, my dad's in education, so we were taught and he actually was a musician. He played the saxophone, so, jazz, listening to jazz was like, you know pretty good, but as far as we were taught that we were just as good as everyone. And by my father being in education he was surrounded by whites. So you know, things, parties and things that he would have at the house, it will be a mixture. So I've always seen a mixture, and everyone should be treated equal. And we were just as good as the next person. So I was taught that you don't— such a cliche, you know—you don't see color, but you know that it's there. You know that others look at you differently. The high school that I went to was predominantly white, predominantly, because of the neighborhood that I lived in and where we went, and it's just like, if now I go, I look back at that high school and it's predominantly Black is like, what a difference generations make, where people start, more Black people started moving towards the Hills moving in the Hills, so like I said, we were one of the first, if not the first in our neighborhood, but most, more started moving and in today's this like—and I think that when I be talking, I don't know where I be going, but I probably steered away from that question again, so I think I need to just leave it there. My parents really did instill the importance in us that we can do and be anything that our hearts desire. But for me back then, all I wanted to do was be a housewife and a mother. I wanted babies. I wanted to be, but I also knew that you needed, you need it more in order to sustain. So.
00:12:13JENKINS: That's really interesting. And you mentioned how, right after you finished high school, you went to junior college and then you were in the workforce for a bit. During that time, did you learn anything new or different about the Black experience or about being Black yourself?
00:12:34MCWILLIAMS: Not me personally, no, because me growing up as a child, I never had to struggle or want for anything. So, I never felt that for me personally, I never felt that. And I think my type of, I don't know, probably because of how I raised, because my mother was such an outgoing person, I never felt unwanted. I never felt as if when I walked into the room I wasn't wanted there. But I've always been a somewhat shy type of person, so I never wanted to be the person to stand out, but yet still, I always ended up being the person that stands, that stood out because I think, because I was loud and always wanted to make someone smile, you know, just, I wanted to bring joy. And then I would find myself being like the center of attention that I never ever, ever, ever wanted, but it always ended up like that. And then I'll walk away and say, how did I just do that? But I've never, ever felt unwanted or, not or looked upon as someone less than. I never felt that in my life, even working at Cal State San Marcos, at a university. I did feel—that's sometimes inadequate in parts, partly because I only had an AA and here I am working at an institution, a four-year institution where degrees were so important. Bachelors, masters, doctorates, you know, so important, but even working there I still never had that desire to go on. And probably because of my experience, I still was able to be me, if that makes sense.
00:15:44JENKINS: It does.
00:15:45MCWILLIAMS: I felt, I think sometimes I did feel less than because I only had an AA, but that AA didn't really define me if that makes sense?
00:15:59JENKINS: Yes. So kind of felt like imposter syndrome type thing?
00:16:05MCWILLIAMS: Probably. Yeah. Why am I here?
00:16:09JENKINS: Yeah.
00:16:10MCWILLIAMS: I deserve to be here, too, but do I? But I'm still here. So I guess, yes, yes.
00:16:21JENKINS: Yeah. That's actually a great segue into our next question. How has Black social justice and activism such as the Civil Rights Movement, feminism, the natural hair movement and Black Lives Matter affected you?
00:16:46MCWILLIAMS: It. How has it affected me? It affected me in a way that it's sad to see the world in the state that it is in right now. Especially with everything that's going on now. Like I said, all of that was not part of my upbringing or who I am as a person. And I guess I must've always just surrounded myself around individuals that didn't feel the way, like some, like a lot of people out there are feeling social justice, Black Lives Matter. Especially working in the department that I work in. We get, I work in the Office of Inclusive Excellence, and we get a lot, you know, inequity things that are happening on campus with our people. But how did it affect me? Oh. Affects me to the point of will it ever end? It’s, I don't understand it. I don't understand. And I know, you know, why can't people see us all as humans? We're all human, everyone has their own experiences, their own—okay, Sierra, I need to articulate that a little better.
00:19:10JENKINS: You’re doing, you’re doing good.
00:19:13MCWILLIAMS: And it's like, how did it affect me? I don't know. I don't, I don't know. I don't know how it affected me. Maybe, I don't know. It's sad. It's sad to see. It hurts me to see how a lot of people, I know people that don't know how a lot of people are treated. It’s sad for me to see how – not sad. It's, it's like, I don't understand how, well I guess I do understand because it's how people are raised. But I don't understand how people can look at an individual and just think that they're not worthy to be here to occupy this space, to offer input or, I don't know. I think I'm just rambling. So, let's go to the next one.
00:20:22JENKINS: Okay.
00:20:23MCWILLIAMS: That one stumped me.
00:20:25JENKINS: (Laughs) It is another deep one. This one goes more towards your experience at San Marcos specifically. What role did you play in the creation of the BSC?
00:20:41MCWILLIAMS: Not much of a role. I understood the students. I understood their need and desire to have space of their own. And since I, I think since I started working, working there, I think the way that I found my calling, because remember I stated earlier how I pretty much felt somewhat inadequate because I only had an AA. So working there when I first started, I started off in the Early Learning Center with the little babies and as the admin person working in the Early Learning Center, which was very, so fulfilling. Then you get, I got to meet a lot of the students because they will bring their children there and I worked there for about five years, and when a position opened up at the Associated Students (Incorporated, student government) office, working with the board of directors, an admin position opened up there, I applied for it, and I got it. So then I moved into that position. So now I'm around students, all kinds of students, and they're the ones that's pretty much running the association. And they're technically like our bosses, but, you know, the staff is there to make sure that they're doing everything according to code, Title IX policy and all of that, but they were technically our bosses. I found my calling during that particular time because I felt more of a mother figure to the students and the Black students really kind of cultivated towards me. Like I said, I don't know, sometimes I’m like the loud one in the room. I'm making them feel kind of like a home. I'm like that mother figure, like: what are you doing in here? Shouldn't you be in class or, you know offer things that way where a lot of my other colleagues would offer advice on this is the class you should take, or you know upper division, lower division, all of that type, this is the path that you need to go, or in order to graduate, these are the things, and my role was totally different, you know. Take care of you and make sure you're eating. Did you have lunch today? Or you know just things like that. So that kind of like mother away from home type of situation. So I found myself that way. So I think the students felt, I think they felt that way also because they always came to me, and I've always had an open-door policy no matter where I was, where students can come. So I got their, I understood their need. Ever since I've been there, the Black student, faculty and staff was at 3%, you know, always at 3% at our university and that's not a high number. So it's like, how do we get more and more students? But in order to get students, you want to have faculty that students want to go into a classroom where they have faculty that looks like them. And so, I got that a lot. So the need for them to have their space was very important. And as far as like playing a role, I was that listening ear. So I would listen and I can, I would be able to advise some: well, you know, have you tried, have you talked to such and such, have you did this, have you did that? And then when you get those students that are outspoken and it's like, no, we need action! We need, we need this, we need that, I'm there with my colleagues to help them navigate that. So my role wasn't big, but it was there. It was big enough, if that makes sense.
00:26:10JENKINS: Definitely. It sounds like you're the moral support, probably the push sometimes people needed to hear. Since you definitely were an ear to students prior to the creation of the BSC (Black Student) Center had you heard a previous like previous push for the center before the one that, that, allowed it to be created this time?
00:26:38MCWILLIAMS: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Students wanted that. And then, you know, there's no space, so there's no space on campus. Which came first? We got the Multicultural Center, which ended up being the, the multicultural center and that ended up being the Cross-Cultural Center and that on our campus kind of like predominantly, it (was) designed to be for all, but it ended up being more of our Asian, Pacific Islander Desi, it ended up being kind of like the center where a lot of our Asian students kind of like gravitated to. And then I think we got the, the Latin@/x Center after that, which ended up being a very small area. But then we got some very outspoken, I mean, even before the (Black Student) Center did become, even before the center five years ago, we got some very outspoken students that would not take no for an answer and demanded the president, where it was so much so, they had help from others, not me as far as like writing the proposal and all of that, more my other colleagues that had their master’s (laughs), their degrees and stuff, to help them put all of that together to bring to the president. I think my role was small, but I think it was, it was there. And I was very proud of them. Very proud of them for how they went about it. At one point as—I do want to mention that I did end up after 14 years with ASI, Associated Students (Incorporated), I did get the position when we first opened our diversity office on campus. Diversity, Educational Equity, and Inclusion was the office that opened up in July 20, no July, where are we? 2021? July 2011, when that office first opened up and then I applied for an admin position there and I got that in November 2011. So when that office opened up, it opened up a more direct avenue for the students to advocate for the space, and our office helped. But my part was just being there to be supportive in any way that I could. And right now, if I was to list those to you, I couldn't even tell you what they were but I do know that with—that's where I was going—see how I'm just going all over the place? I do know that within ASI, it was the very first time that ASI had an all-color female executive board. So we had a Black female for president, a Black female for executive—I forgot what the titles were, a Black female for the diversity rep, and like a Latina female for the vice president of something. So all the execs were females of color. And I do want to say that that year was really, they did so much, but they got so much pushback. And it was really sad to see that. They was, you know, all strong women. I'm hoping that some of them are part of this interview. Naturally they're great. They've graduated, but they were in our office all the time because of how, because of how they were being treated. So I know that when, if they are in the interview, their experience at Cal State San Marcos way different, because they got so much pushback and it was like, they couldn't do it, but they did some amazing work. Amazing. And it was during that particular board when the president decided that yes, we do need a (Black Student) Center. So I don't even know if I answered that question and let me apologize to you right now because I noticed sometimes I hear one and then I start saying something that I may be, so I don't know. I know that you're recording. So if you have the capacity to like, okay, she wasn't making no sense, you know, cut! You know, I have no problem with that because I'm probably just going off on a tangent, like I am now. So I’m gonna’ be quiet.
00:32:51JENKINS: No, that's totally fine. You answered the question perfectly and then actually it actually goes into the next one. Cause it sounds like those women were kind of like unsung heroes that maybe not everyone knows about when it comes to the BSC.
00:33:08MCWILLIAMS: Absolutely.
00:33:09JENKINS: Yeah.
00:33:10MCWILLIAMS: Absolutely. Like I said, I truly hope that they are part of the interview process. I believe the director, well, I did reach out to one of the students that I'm hoping that the director of the BSC has contacted her, but I do hope that these students are part of this interview process because I know that they will be able to share a lot of information, especially from the student perspective.
00:33:45JENKINS: Yeah. Who are the different leaders that like spearheaded the BSC project?
00:33:58MCWILLIAMS: The different leaders?
00:34:00JENKINS: Yeah. Like who were the main people you would say advocated or were central to creating the Black Student Center?
00:34:11MCWILLIAMS: Oh the students definitely, the BSU, the Black Student Union president at the time. And not just the president, but the Black Student Union student organization, a lot of the students there, as well as the execs in the ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) board of directors. So the—I'm sorry, I just, I just saw your cat and my mind—No, no, no, it's not you it's like, Ooh, she has a cat. I'm sorry, Sierra (laughs).
00:34:57JENKINS: You’re totally fine! I was surprised they've been good this long, this far in (laughs).
00:35:05MCWILLIAMS: But the students definitely, I would say definitely they are the main ones too, that make, and they wasn't even here wh- oh yeah. When we opened the ASI (Associated Students Incorporated) board, they were graduating, but some of the students from the Black Student Union student organization wasn't even here for the opening (of the Black Student Center). They had, you know, they had since left. They wasn't even here for the opening to the, to see that. But the ASI, the ASI executive board were. So I'm thankful for that because I'm thinking about the opening now. And the three of them were there at that, but I will say the students were the main force, but they had help. They had help from some faculty. We have our Sharon, Dr. Sharon Elise at the time. Dilcie Perez, Ariel Stevenson, a lot of the faculty and staff, they were there to help support them, but it was mainly a student effort.
00:36:20JENKINS: Okay. That also leads into the next question. What did staff faculty, and especially students, since they were central to this, that were involved in the creation of the BSC, what did they feel they needed?
00:36:37MCWILLIAMS: Ooh. They needed. I know that a few of my colleagues were able to help with the proposal. Would that be a proposal? The writing, you know, the letter to the president, I know that a lot of the, a lot of my colleagues were able to assist with that. The letter, to get it to the president's office and, and make sure that it was in a… format. If that's the word I'm looking or a different word, but format, that would be looked at and not just pushed to the side, you know it, that made in such a way that, okay, we can't like, not just ignore this. So. That wasn't even your question. What was your question again?
00:37:57JENKINS: You're answering it. What did the students feel they needed? And you were saying how the letters they were getting helped with that sort of thing.
00:38:06MCWILLIAMS: Yeah. And they needed to, they needed to know and needed to feel that what they were asking for was something that was needed and not just—something that was really needed and not just: we're asking just to be asking. And they needed that for them, you know? And there's more, and that's why now we're into cluster hire, because even the Black Student Center has been here for five years, going on five years, and we still are not where we should be at with faculty hiring, administrative hiring for the African Americans, you know, for the Blacks. We, there's definitely more that needs to be done, but that was a step in the right direction. But there's still more that needs to be done.
00:39:38JENKINS: Yeah. What did the university administration communicate was their vision? You mentioned it was more students. So what maybe what was their, what did they communicate? Was there a vision for the BSC?
00:40:01MCWILLIAMS: Hm. I'm not sure how to answer that one.
00:40:06JENKINS: Okay. No problem. We can go on to the next one. Was there external or institutional pushback to the creation of the BSC, or did you experience or witness any pushback upon the creation of the Center within the Center or on social media?
00:40:26MCWILLIAMS: Hmm, not sure how to answer that either. I'm not really a social media person, I'm on Facebook, but I don't do the Instagram or, you know, so hmm. Was there pushback?
00:40:43JENKINS: Yeah.
00:40:44MCWILLIAMS: I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure there was pushback in the beginning, but I think it got to the point where, because I'm pretty sure that like this last group, it wasn't the first one to bring this up to the president and to administration. And now I'm not sure how to answer that question, Sierra.
00:41:15JENKINS: No problem. Maybe. Did you, were you aware of any pushback from other groups of people to the creation of the Center or…
00:41:25MCWILLIAMS: Oh, that way. Yeah. Yeah we got pushback because then you have students start asking for white center. So, but I don't really know how to answer that question as far as pushback, what type of pushback? You know, there were students that, especially when they were talking about opening the Black Student Center, they, yeah. There were students like, we need this, we need that. Why are we having that? I mean you, you're going to have that, but how extensive that was, I can't answer that.
00:42:25JENKINS: No problem. Were you at the BSC grand opening?
00:42:31MCWILLIAMS: Absolutely! It was wonderful.
00:42:37JENKINS: How did you feel the first time you visited the Center once it opened?
00:42:44MCWILLIAMS: I felt pride. I felt overjoyed. I felt like now the students, and I'm looking at it from a student point of view, now the students can really feel like they have some place to call home here on campus. I felt, I felt prideful. I felt, yes! I felt like, okay, let's, let's do this. I felt as though the place was small and it was going to, it will be outgrown in two weeks, but it was the beginning, it was the beginning and the right direction. And I felt with what they had to, what they had to work with—‘cause I don't know how all of that stuff works. How do you find space on campus? And when you do that, and I know that when that was happening, they had to do away with another space that one of the student orgs had. It was, we had a like serenity type an office and then an area where you can go in and wash your feet before you go pray. And all of that, we had that area. And so they had to take that away. So I felt bad for those students because they were losing their space or they were sending them, giving them someplace else. But in order, it was just, I don't know. It was, you get rid of one in order to move one in and then it's still not really adequate, but it’s what you have. And at least you have something, you know, so I felt good about that. At least they have something and then maybe it can be expanded at a later time. But the mere fact that they did have a space, I felt very happy about that.
00:45:34JENKINS: That's amazing. What was the grand opening like? I want to hear that, more about that.
00:45:42MCWILLIAMS: We had speakers, the new director was hired at the time. Anthony Jett, he's no longer there. But the students, the Associated Students (Incorporated), they pretty much ran it. Not ran it (the Black Student Center), the program itself. They were the president of ASI, her name was Tiffaney. Her name is Tiffaney Boyd. They pretty much had a role. I'm trying to think. We had speakers there. It was like an open house where we were able to, first we were out in the amphitheater with just like a very nice program. And we toured, we had sororities from other campuses come and it was a big, festive event. And it was wonderful. There was all the students were so happy. It was wonderful. And, you know, I had on my little—kente, what did I wear? I was all gold. I was cute. I was cute that day! It was very festive. The president was there to cut the ribbon, and the students were all up there. I'm pretty sure I have some pictures somewhere from that time, but it was, it was a magical moment. It was wonderful. And it was in the (University) Student Union. The Student Union had just, I can't even remember time, but it was fairly new and like the perfect place for it to be. So by that time we had the Cross-Cultural Center, the Latin@/x Center, the Gender Equity Center and the LGBTQ, no, no, no, the Pride Center. It's not LG. It's just called the Pride Center. So we had all those centers in our Student Union. And it was like, okay, this is what's it, this is happening! This is good. So I felt very prideful.
00:48:11JENKINS: That sounds like so much fun. I wish I was there.
00:48:15MCWILLIAMS: Then I walk in. ‘Cause you know, like I told you, me being who I am and stuff like that, I walked in. It's like: yeah, mama bear here! Hey! How y’all! You know, I walk in all loud and they sit behind their desk and it was just, it was like open arms. So it felt good.
00:48:35JENKINS: That is amazing. Now this is more about the early days of the BSC (Black Student Center). Tell us about the early focus of the BSC’s initiatives, like meaning programming, events, and their focus.
00:48:55MCWILLIAMS: We had some very good events. The focus was bringing Blackness and history and education to campus. I remember we had a event, a program with the Tulsa massacre. And I think we had an event with the founder of Kwanzaa. We had an event I think that year for the opening. I can't remember when we opened, but the, right after the opening, that first March was Women's History Month. So, the director made sure to recognize and honor all of the Black women at Cal State San Marcos. Faculty and staff, and to just, you know, recognize all of them. So it was a day set aside for that, which was wonderful. And I'm sure there's more events that I just can't think of off the top of my head right now, but it was like just going to those events, some were evening, some were during the noon hour. But going to those, it was like, Oh my God! You know, like even the Tulsa massacre, just like hearing about all of that. We had Black Panthers, it was an event where some of the members from Black Panthers was there. So, it was all about promoting history, Black history, and it was fabulous. It was just, it was good and it has continued but you know, now with this pandemic, it's been hard this last year, especially when we got our new director (John Rawlins III), I can see great things are coming. Great things will be coming, but just with this last year, things had to shift. Things had to change. But I think the pride in just educating Black history is his focus and goal and (he’s) doing a great job.
00:51:55JENKINS: That's so interesting. And I love that focused on Black history because oftentimes we aren't taught our correct history, you know, so it’s really important and awesome that they did that, especially so early on. Why was the Black Student Center moved from Student Success or Black excellence to Student Life?
00:52:28MCWILLIAMS: They, I don't know. They changed, well students, it used to be student. I don't know if necessarily changed. I think just the name changed. Changed because Student Life, what did they used to be called? SLL. Student—I'll have to look at one of my t-shirts to see what the SL is, but it's not necessarily changed because they've always been up under Student Affairs. They've always been part of Student Affairs and the student life center, all of this, not all of the centers—all of them have always been part of Student Affairs, but with, like the Pride Center and the Gender Equity Center was part of Associated Students (Incorporated), but then they branched off from Associated Students into Student Life. So that those twos’ kind of like move, but all the other ones have always been part of Student Life. So I'm not sure where that, that question you might have to check with director of the Black (Student) Center for more because I know that they just re- Student Life just, is it Student Life? They just recently changed their name. So they changed it to Student Life? They used to be. Yeah. See, I don't know.
00:54:20JENKINS: Okay. No problem. Were there any, or what are some of the wrinkles that had to be worked out in the early days of the Center?
00:54:44MCWILLIAMS: I don't know.
00:54:46JENKINS: Okay. No problem. We can go on to the next one. You actually mentioned this a bit, but the main purpose of the Center's creation was to, you know, have a, a place of community for the Black students on campus, place where they can learn about their history and just feel a sense of community. How do you feel like this purpose has been accomplished? Or do you think we're still working on working towards that?
00:55:21MCWILLIAMS: I think that yes, but there's still growth needed. And if that growth needed as far as more space, more support as far as like, employees to help, you know, yes, the students play a great role, but—a great important role—but students tend to leave. They graduate, they move on. And so, you know, to have like a strong foundation where you have a director and, you know, a couple coordinators or, like full-time staff there, would be helpful. I don't think I answered that question. So ask me that question again.
00:56:39JENKINS: You answered it, but I'll ask it again. You mentioned the main purpose. How do you feel like it's been accomplished already? That was the main question.
00:56:52MCWILLIAMS: Oh, yes. And no. I mean, yes, we accomplished because we have it, but there's going to always be more that needs to be done and more that can be done. So we're not finished, by no means are we finished.
00:57:19JENKINS: Thank you for that. Um, what has been the impact of the BSC on you personally?
00:57:40MCWILLIAMS: Just the mere fact of knowing that one piece has been accomplished. We got it. So now let's make use of it. Let's make it bigger and better. Let's do all that we can in order to keep promoting. Let's not stop. And even though, like I had mentioned a couple of the events, sometimes events need to be duplicated because you have a different audience, you know, you have new students, you have new freshmen, sophomores that probably wasn't here years ago to see some of the fruits from the events that took place earlier. So sometimes, sometimes things can be duplicated in order to continue the education, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think I'll stop there.
00:59:09JENKINS: Okay.
00:59:12MCWILLIAMS: Probably said to yourself, Lord have mercy.
00:59:14JENKINS: No, It’s been interesting and so amazing.
00:59:20MCWILLIAMS: Thank you for making me feel good.
00:59:24JENKINS: No problem, it's true. Like I'm, I'm being serious cause I'm new to San Marcos. So all of this stuff is brand new to me, so I like hearing about it. What do you expect to see next for the BSC?
00:59:40MCWILLIAMS: I expect to see John (Rawlins III, Director of the Black Student Center) do amazing things. He has the energy, and he has the means to bring amazing, new and amazing things to campus. So I expect for—I expect to see some great energy and great education coming from the Center, especially once we get back to campus. Everything is just so, you don't really understand and realize the effect, because this is new to everybody, the effect that this pandemic has had on many, and you don't know cause, like I've realized during this pandemic that depression, loneliness and all of that, all of that stuff is real. And you don't know what individuals are going through. Especially students from like a virtual learning environment to, what if you’re the type of student that you're visual or you're hands on and you can't get that now. And so how is that impacting your ability to learn and to grasp and to understand and to move on from this. So I'm hoping to see great things once we are out of this pandemic and once we're able to move back to campus. And like I said, especially with the implementation of the cluster hiring, I'm hopeful that we're getting ready to get more Black faculty, possibly Black administrators here on campus. I really feel in my heart that our new president (Ellen Neufeldt) she's on her, just completed her—is she going on her second year or first year? But I think that coming this July, I think this will be her second year. I think she gets it. And I think that that is going to be all the difference in the world for Cal State San Marcos, to really, especially where we're centralized, where we are here in North County, North San Diego County to be a little bit more diverse. I think our president now gets it, understands it, believes it, feels it, and is gonna’ make sure that it happens. And I see that in the future. And I don't even know if that that was your question?
01:03:21JENKINS: It was my question!
01:03:23MCWILLIAMS: And I know I’m, saying that a lot so you know, you will have to cut that, but I'm just being me, Sierra.
01:03:30JENKINS: I love it. It's fine. And yes, you answered the question perfectly. Did you want to go back to that previous question about, how did you come to your understanding of Blackness?
01:03:45MCWILLIAMS: Hmm. I'll use this as an example. I came to my understanding of Blackness when my son was in the second grade. And like I told you, by this time I'm in Oakland and the school is not predominantly white at the time. You know, it was getting to be a mixture, but I started having problems with my son in school with this teacher, I'm getting phone calls every single day, every day about him doing this, him doing that, you know. What I think what hurt the most is when I had to go to the school to have a conversation with the principal because on my son's report card, the teacher wrote on there that he has, how did she phrase that? Animalistic behavior or something, something she said in that sense? And I'm like, whoa, that was you know, or is she calling my son an animal? Why teacher? But that made me realize, well, how can you put something like this on an important document? And it was one of those situations where I'm constantly getting calls, I'm taking off work, I'm going to class, I'm going to school, I'm doing everything that I needed to be doing. And then for her to put something like that. So I think at that point, it's like, is she calling my son out as a you know, is this because he's Black? And I'm using this as an example because I'm trying to think of how did I come to my real realization of Blackness, of being Black. And that took me for a loop. Later on I began to realize, later on—my son is 38 now. So I'm saying this was back in second grade. I think back then, my son realized at the time that he can get to this teacher and now thinking back on it, I think that she was afraid of my son. A second grader! How old are you? How old are you that? So I have a granddaughter who is seven in the first grade. So you're like, eight, and for teacher to be afraid of a eight-year-old child at that time. And then to say things like that. So naturally I went to the principal's office and I wanted him moved. I wanted him moved out her class because I didn't think that that was healthy. And you know, for him, definitely not, for me, it just, it was like one of those that sent me back like, wow. And that's kinda’ like the only thing that I can kind of like think of right now, coming back to that. But yeah, I think that, that time she was afraid of him and didn't know how to articulate it and but to articulate like that is demeaning. And that let me know that something wasn’t right with her to feel that way and to put that, you know, he ended up—he's married. He’s doing well. He ended up being, he's like one of those giant, what do you call them? Who's real quiet. Quiet giants or no that's not, what's that saying?
01:08:46JENKINS: A gentle giant?
01:08:47MCWILLIAMS: Yes, thank you! And that he ended up that for that's how he is now. He’s about six two, and just so gentle, soft-spoken and it was like, you know. But anyway, sorry, that's the only thing that I can think of. I'm pretty sure as soon as we, soon as we end, this is like a whole bunch of things are going to pop up and say, you should have told her this, you should have said this, but right now? I'm not, I'm not feeling any of it. I don't have the words are just not there.
01:09:29JENKINS: That's fine. And I'm glad you guys are good now, but I'm so sorry that happened to you and your son at the time. And I just hate that, you know, as Black people coming into our Blackness always has a, there's always a hand in trauma and you know, discrimination.
01:09:48MCWILLIAMS: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.
01:09:52JENKINS: Yeah. But thank you for sharing. And my last question is, are there any questions that I should have asked that I didn't?
01:10:01MCWILLIAMS: You asked some pretty tough questions, Sierra. They were good, but they were tough. And I just hope, I only hope that I'm not a good, um, it's so funny. I'm not a good public speaker. I'm not a good interviewer. And it's so funny that I'm saying that to say, when I came to work for Associated Students (Incorporated) on campus, probably the first year we have a faculty staff association, African-American Faculty Staff Association that has since been renamed. It used to be African-American Faculty, Staff Association, AAFSA, but once the Black Student Center came on board, they renamed it to Black Faculty Staff Association to be more in alignment, more in unison with, we had the Black Student Union, which was a student, which is a student organization. Then we got the Black faculty staffs no, the Black Student Center. And so then that's when they wanted to rename AAFSA to the Black Faculty Staff Association. But back then, when I first came to Associated Students (Incorporated), they needed a president for the African-American Faculty Staff Association. And because, you know, we're, our numbers. We're just. Multiple people have served that role before, but you're just so limited that after I was there for like about a year, they asked me to do it. And of course, I no! I can't be no president, president, no! And it's so funny because a lot of my colleagues, you know: we're here for you, we'll be here, blah-blah-blah. So I said yes, ended up in that role for two years. And with that is like, when we would have functions or a recognition ceremony, we have our signature, soulful luncheon, all those things I'm up on that podium, it's like just the, nervous as all get out. I can't do this, I can't do this. And then you get me up on that podium with that microphone. And I just wouldn't be quiet. I'm just up there just blah-blah-blah-blah. You know? And it just, for whatever event it was, it was wonderful. It was wonderful. So it's like, why am I even telling you, why am I even saying this? I don't even know why? I brought it up for a reason, I lost my train of thought, but—I don't know Sierra. And like I say, when I get off this call, I'm going to say, yeah, I knew that's why I was bringing it up. I brought that up for a reason, but I don’t know.
01:13:14JENKINS: Oh my goodness.
01:13:19MCWILLIAMS: I think we need to end this while I am ahead. If I am ahead. (laughter)
01:13:26JENKINS: You're doing so good, don’t doubt yourself.
01:13:30MCWILLIAMS: Just being myself.
01:13:32JENKINS: Alright then.
01:13:35MCWILLIAMS: Well, I appreciate you taking the time out with me. Hopefully your other interviews will go smoothly.
01:13:40JENKINS: Oh my gosh, this one went perfectly and thank you for taking your time for me as well and this project as a whole. And your input is so important to this project and just thank you. And now I'm going to stop recording.
