Tran, Hac. Interview April 25, 2023.

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00:00:00JENNIFER HO: Okay. Today is April 25th, 2023. I’m Jenn Ho, and I’m here with Trần Qúy Hạc (Tran Quy Hac), interviewing him for the Children of Refugees Vietnamese American Oral History Project, and we are in Chicago, Illinois. Thanks for being with me today, Hac. How are you?

00:00:19HAC TRAN: Oh, yeah. I’m doing well. Thank you for this opportunity to, you know, speak and share my family’s history.

00:00:26HO: Yeah, my pleasure. Okay, so let’s start from the beginning of your life. Tell me when and where you were born.

00:00:33TRAN: I was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1985 at Michael Reese Hospital which is in Bronzeville. Yeah. So, I was born in Chicago. My parents came here ten years prior. So, I was―I have an older sister, born in 1984. They’ve tried to have children before but, you know, a lot of miscarriages. So, my sister and I were kind of like miracle babies, I guess, after multiple miscarriages, for my mother. But, yeah, I was born and raised a little bit in Chicago. I’ve moved to the Chicagoland. Always been connected to―especially, you know, the Vietnamese American community here in Chicago, which was where we are now in Argyle Street which is now called Asia on Argyle. But, you know, growing up we always called it just Argyle or in Vietnamese you would say “Ahgai.” So, my parents were part of the Vietnamese Association of Illinois (VAI), in the early days. My mom worked there as a secretary years, years ago like in the late ‘70s and my dad was part of the board throughout the ‘90s. So, you know, I–we were always like engaged with the Vietnamese community within Chicago since my parents came here.

00:01:49HO: Okay. Thank you for that–that context.

00:01:52TRAN: Yeah.

00:01:53HO: So, you’ve really always been immersed in the Vietnamese American community?

00:01:56TRAN: Yeah.

00:01:57HO: How did you feel about that as a child? Were you really into it? Or did you–did you embrace it or–or no?

00:02:04TRAN: Yeah. I–from my memory, I would say like, yeah, I did embrace it in the sense that, you know, when you’re young, you have friends. So, there was like a lot of other kids our age. So, it’s like, you know, you–you build those friendships. It’s more about “Hey, I want to see my friend” and like be part of this, you know, this community of youth. It didn’t really click until later, you know, the idea of like being immersed within one’s diaspora and one’s culture. Because over the years growing up, you know, like you are part of it, but then you go to school. You kind of integrate into, you know, the larger American dominant society. So you do–I did like I felt like I did lose touch with my community and my culture for some period of time, like in my teen years up until college. But, yeah, as a kid, I was involved not only with the community but we were every like Tết (Tet) and like Lunar New Year like my mom and her friends organize the dance troupe of like all the youth. So, we were―every year we were like performing as kids, and like just in the youth programs and stuff with VAI and the larger Vietnamese community. So, but yeah, I think I embraced it because it was more so like connection between like other kids your age.

00:03:18HO: Yeah. Like it’s so—

00:03:19TRAN: That just happened to be, you know—

00:03:20HO: Yeah.

00:03:21TRAN: —we were all so embedded within Vietnamese culture and–and things like that.

00:03:25HO: Yeah. Would you say that your parents were involved because they–because they wanted to make sure that you held on to your sense of culture? Or was it really more for them or maybe a little bit of both?

00:03:41TRAN: I think it’s both, because, you know, growing up I would hear it, you know, you can’t like mất gốc (mat goc, to lose your roots). You shouldn’t lose your roots. Like I would always consistently hear that from my parents, especially when they—you know, I would like prefer to speak English to them or something like that. And obviously also I believe it’s part of, you know—especially as refugees, right? They came in 1975. My dad always thought he was going to go back. Um, like oh, I—he didn’t—you never really know the future. So when he left the U.S., like for the U.S., or he left Việt Nam (Vietnam), rather — he didn’t really know where he was going — there was always like the desire of home, and returning home. So, I think for them like to have that shared kind of experience collectively with other people who have gotten through the same thing in building community, it’s, in part, I think for them, too, to, you know, maintain what this idea or this notion of home is. And obviously, you know, like when you have a family or–and–kids, you want to pass that culture down to your child. And I think for my parents, it’s—I mean, for many refugees, right? Like, within this–this time—it’s like, a lot of it’s like they’re forced to leave all they knew. So, like you’re in this strange new land and you see that with like throughout the generations with people. Like people like come and they always find their community. So, I think like for them it’s important and like to pass on to your children is–is probably the reason why. Yeah.

00:05:13HO: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you. I definitely want to talk more about you because this interview is about you.

00:05:20TRAN: Yeah.

00:05:21HO: But obviously we’re not who we are without our parents. So, let’s talk about them for a little bit.

00:05:24TRAN: Okay.

00:05:25HO: Do your–do your parents talk a lot about their–their children–uh, their childhood and, you know, their experiences growing up? And I’m talking about like pre-war before—

00:05:34TRAN: Yeah.

00:05:35HO: —all of that stuff, like who they were as–as people. Like are they open to sharing that stuff?

00:05:40TRAN: Yeah. Surprisingly, I hear a lot of people, you know, peers my age, like they don’t know anything about their parent’s family because they don’t want to share it. Either it’s too traumatic or like it’s the past to be buried. But, yeah, like luckily for me I, you know, my–both my parents shared a lot of their history, like their childhood and up until leaving Vietnam. So, like both of my parents are originally from the north. My father is from Nam Định (Nam Dinh) which is a small province like, I believe, it’s like east, southeast maybe. I’m not exactly sure geographically. But it’s not far from Hà Nội (Hanoi). And then my mom’s side of the family—her father’s from Hải Dương (Hai Duong) which is near Hải Phòng (Hai Phong), around there. And my grandmother on my mom’s side is from Hanoi. So, they were--they grew up pre-1954, you know, when there was like still French colonialism. They lived in the north. Like my father was like—his family, I believe his father died young when he was young. Both my—my dad was kind of like an orphan. So, he moved around from different relatives’ houses and stuff. And then my mom’s side of the family—they were kind of like wealthy. So that’s why in 1954 my mom’s side of the family left. They were not Christian or Catholic or anything. So their circumstances for leaving the north for the south in 1954 were drastically different. My father just left with his younger brother, and, yeah. He went south and they lived in Sài Gòn (Saigon). Up until 1975, my father was part of the military a little bit but he went to Đà Lạt (Da Lat) to tea–or to study. He also had connections to the U.S. Embassy teaching English. So, that’s how he kind of got out in ’75. At that point, he was just him because his brother had passed during the war. And then my mom’s side of the family—my grandfather was a very wealthy banker in Saigon. So, she was like what–what you would say is like probably like the one percent of here. So they were–she was very privileged. So, they got out like April 30th through his connections. And then my parents met each other actually initially on Wake Island. So, my dad, I bel—yeah, my dad went to Guam first, and then went to Wake Island which is, I believe, it’s a Pacific island under U.S. military--I think it’s a military base or something. But in the refugee camp there my father was teaching English to other refugees and my mother was his like assistant. So, they had connected there. And then, through sponsorships my father was sponsored through Trinity Christian College in Palos Heights on the southwest side. It’s a suburb southwest of the city. And then my mother’s side was sponsored by a Lutheran church to Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So, my dad--you know, they lost touch after leaving Wake Island. But they reconnected actually here on Argyle Street, in probably like ’76-’77 or something like that, I’m not sure the exact year. But the story goes that back then it was not like you see now where there’s, you know, there’s a lot of commerce and businesses. Like where Vietnamese people met was like peoples’ houses. So, there was my dad’s friend. He lived like right at–right over here at Sheridan and Argyle, right across the street from where we’re from, actually. Um, and that year my mother—it was like the winter storm of, I believe, seventy-something and her and her friends from Milwaukee were going to go down to Chinatown. But it was like too much snow. And her friend had heard, “Hey, there’s like actually like someone who sells phở (pho, noodle soup) out of their house.” That’s closer. You know, if you want to go to Chicago, but it’s still like an Asian community. So, they decided to go there. They went there, ate pho, and there was also like mahjong, you know, in the houses. So, the story goes that, you know, my mom actually had to go—her and her friends left, actually, and she needed to go to the bathroom. So, she went back up. And then like the person leaving the bathroom, I believe, was like my dad. And then they met each other again. And through that he like just wrote down his phone number. And then, you know, a back and forth a lot like from my dad drove a lot to Milwaukee and, you know, eventually they got married and then my mom moved down here. Um, so that’s where kind of, I guess, my origin story starts in Chicago. And then like, yeah. Their–their story is, you know, my dad was an auditor for the state of Illinois. They worked with the VAI like I said previously. But like in the very early ‘80s, they decided to open a restaurant. But it wasn’t actually in this area. They opened it kind of on the west side of the city, pretty far west, like close to Oak Park.

00:10:29HO: What was it called?

00:10:31TRAN: It was called Mimosa Cafe. At first it was like a Red Hots joint. Like my dad was selling burgers, hot dogs, things like that. And then he decided to add like simple items that were like fried rice, egg rolls onto the menu. And a lot of people really started buying that so he decided eventually to kind of pivot to just open like a Vietnamese restaurant. So it was called Mimosa Cafe. It was like, you know, those like hot dogs’ places are tiny. So, like there was like lines out the door. But then he moved the restaurant to Oak Park off of like Harlem, near the green line. But unfortunately there was like, you know—The economy was bad. He moved completely to another area, lost business. It survived like, five or six years after that, but eventually, you know, he had to shutter the business. And then we—that’s when we moved out to the suburbs. He got a job—a teaching job—at Wheaton North High School. And then, my mom eventually got into social work at Head Start. And then I grew up out in Glendale Heights which—surprisingly, there’s a lot of Vietnamese people out there. There’s a few churches. Not far from there is like a Vietnamese Buddhist temple. So, there’s actually like a large Vietnamese community. And so, I grew up–I grew up with like in–in grade school, high school, with like a lot of Vietnamese kids around me. So, not only was I connected here to Argyle and like VAI and like that youth program of Chicago, but where we lived, like, my kindergarten classroom was like three Tran students—me, Steven, and another Tran, you know. So, it was like, (chuckles) you know, we–I grew up surrounded by that, that culture.

00:12:15HO: Yeah. Okay. What years was Mimosa Café open?

00:12:21TRAN: (sighs) Whooo. I should–I should know this precisely.

00:12:25HO: You were–you were around though. You were—

00:12:26TRAN: Uh, they opened before I was born.

00:12:28HO: Oh, okay.

00:12:31TRAN: So, I believe it was like probably like ’80.

00:12:31HO: Okay.

00:12:32TRAN: And then it was like a ten-year period, like from the–from 1980 to 1990, I would say.

00:12:36HO: Okay.

00:12:38TRAN: Yeah. So, they even had it like a restaurant before my sister was born—

00:12:41HO: Okay. So, do you have memories of–of being in–in the restaurant?

00:12:46TRAN: Yeah, I do. Um, the–the second restaurant, though. The first one I wasn’t around for that. So, I think, yeah. So, I just remember the one like on Harlem Avenue, over in Oak Park, right at the cusp of the city, just like sitting in the back, like on the milk crates and eating egg rolls and like, you know, his workers like prepping all the food. And there was this one booth that I remember specifically. It was like kind of near to the kitchen entrance, and me and my sister would like, would be those little kids, you know, when you go into a restaurant, you see those little kids coloring and stuff. We were those kids in the back. And it was interesting because like a few years ago—the building still exists. Now, it’s like actually surpri–like funny. It’s like a Red Hots, a gyros hot dog place now. That person bought the building after, you know, my dad shuttered his business. So, we went—actually, my sister and I—went there and it was like–it was weird. Like that was the first time I’d been in there since, like, 1990, I guess.

00:13:44HO: How did you feel? Tell me.

00:13:46TRAN: I felt like–I don’t–somewhat emotional, you know. Like, you know, I was going with my sister and this was like kind of our humble beginnings as children, you know and like my parents’ journey of trying to succeed in this country. And I didn’t have, like, true vivid memories because I was so young. I don’t even know if I could put it into words but I felt like–I don’t–it felt–it felt strange. Like there was a kind of out-of-body experience, like whoa, like this is like the past and the present. And like I never really thought about this place, you know. But looking at old photos and stuff, there’s like birthdays every year. We always would have it there. And like all the Vietnamese community would come for our birthdays. So, it was like looking at that and like realizing how far we’ve come since that moment. Yeah, it made it—I would say, yeah. Um, I can’t think of the words right now.

00:14:49HO: Okay.

00:14:50TRAN: Yeah.

00:14:51HO: Sometimes there are no words.

00:14:52TRAN: Yeah.

00:14:53HO: So, um, did you and your sister go out there with the purpose of like visiting the (Tran coughs) shop and is that what you were–you set out to do that day?

00:14:59TRAN: I don’t think so. We were like thrifting. You know, like—and going to like–like shopping arou—like we stopped by Oak Park for something. I can’t remember what. But then we were like—I’m like “Hey, let’s just–do you want to go in and eat here?” So, we would–we ate but the food was not that great (chuckles). But–but it was more so like, you know, we wanted to like sit down in there and like see it. But, yeah, it wasn’t intentional. It just happened that we drove past it. Like, I’ve driven past it, like actually many times with never like I’m going to go in and see it.

00:15:29HO: Yeah.

00:15:30TRAN: Yeah.

00:15:31HO: Okay. Can I ask why–why did your parents decide to open a restaurant?

00:15:36TRAN: I think it was more my father’s dream. Like he always wanted to probably be self-sufficient, and like, you know, have something of his own, to open a business. And he also like really enjoyed cooking. Like he was never like officially trained chef or anything. But like growing up in the north, um, he told me a story. Like, you know, pho actually is from Nam Dinh. The origin of pho, that dish is from his village or from that province. And like growing up, he was like - I guess he worked for like a family friend after his, you know, parents passed. Like his aunt sent him here. This guy who had a pho shop and like he learned that craft from Nam Dinh. So, he cooks, you know, like I think through that like he always like—and being alone, you know, throughout his like kind of formative years going to the south. Like he always had to cook for himself and stuff. So, I think like for him it was more—obviously, one, you want to open a business and try to be successful to probably build for your family. But there was also like this idea, I think, like he’s mentioned before where, you know, it’s–it’s like owning something of his own and like the passion for cooking. Yeah. And my mom is actually—I don’t think she ever really enjoyed the–the restaurant industry. But she like loves cooking. (siren sounds in background) So, it’s like growing up I just remember, you know, a lot of like gender roles within, you know, Vietnamese culture. It’s very patriarchal. But growing up, I would always see my dad in the kitchen with my mom, you know. And that’s like something you don’t really see in Vietnamese families. But he was like—you know, they were cooking together. So, I think like for me that - seeing that - was also like kind of was a segue into my enjoyment of food and–and like kind of food ethnography and food history and things like that.

00:17:28HO: Mm-hmm. That’s really cool.

00:17:29TRAN: Yeah. (clears his throat)

00:17:30HO: Something I’ve noticed as a theme in just talking to other Vietnamese people or to people of our generation is that parents always were very self-sufficient and very entrepreneurial.

00:17:44TRAN: (sniffles) Yeah.

00:17:45HO: So, it sounds like that’s–that’s your dad.

00:17:47TRAN: Yeah. Even though he like he didn’t succeed I think there’s that still that–that urge to try at least, you know. Like you–you can’t really tell the future of what’s successful or not. Like this block itself, there’s not really any small pop–mom–and shop restaurants from the early ‘90s that exist anymore, you know. So, people like, yeah, it’s that–that drive for–for entrepreneurship and to be self-sufficient, I think.

00:18:15HO: Yeah. Um, okay. So, let’s talk about you. Um, tell me about your family–your family and the people who raised you. I mean you’ve talked about mom and dad but were there any other family members around?

00:18:30TRAN: Yeah. So, like (clears his throat) my father’s side of the family—he’s the only one actually that came to the U.S. So his entire family, all relatives like remained in–mostly in the north. So, I never really knew my dad’s family growing up at all until like later down the year, like years later I went to study abroad in Vietnam and like met them in the north. But like yeah. The people that raised me were, you know, like my mom, my dad, my grandmother. So, my–my mom’s dad died the year that I was born. So, I have two other cousins born like a month after me. Um, so we had—my mom is the oldest of eight. So, initially all of them lived in Milwaukee. But over the years, you know, growing up I remember like a big, close-knit family. Like I had eight aunts and uncles. There was eight of them, and then I had cousins. And those are like beyond my sister and I. Like we had like our cousins. Like those are all like our brothers and sisters. We grew up together. There’s three of them from Milwaukee. Two of them live here now. So, like—and that was like — growing up was—I just remember a lot of—it was a very busy household with a lot of different people always cooking. And like in the ‘90s my grandmother sponsored two of her younger brothers — so, my great uncles — over and they both lived in Glendale Heights near me. So, we would always be surrounded by aunts and uncles and my—I guess they would consider it like second cousins, my—but, you know, in Vietnamese it’s like just your uncle, your parent’s cousin or whatever. So, there was always people around. Um, and that like—I think like in–in many ways that— (coughs) I guess, what am I trying to say? I mean, yeah. It was like a loving environment, in the sense that there are a lot of different types of people, that grew up with you. Yeah.

00:20:34HO: That’s nice. Are you still close to these cousins?

00:20:36TRAN: Yeah. Um, so there is my sister and I. There is like seven of us in that–in our generation (clears throat) like between like now approaching forties I guess. I think some of them are forty already. But like we all like kind of grew up together and we’re still really close. Two of them live here. One lives in Cali and the other two live in Texas.

00:20:59HO: It sounds like—Are—I think I’ve met your sister one time a long time ago. You were—you guys are pretty close, aren’t you?

00:21:05TRAN: Yeah. (sniffles)

00:21:06HO: That’s nice.

00:21:08TRAN: Yeah. I’m mean that we are close but we, you know— I–I feel like (clears his throat) there’s also with any siblinghood there’s challenges and, you know, dealing with like inherited traumas and things like that that create conflicts. So, yeah. But we are like despite those things, you know, we are close. Yeah.

00:21:31HO: That’s great. You–so you’ve known–you’ve known this area, Argyle, your whole life.

00:21:40TRAN: I mean, there was years where I didn’t really (clears throat) come here.

00:21:43HO: Okay.

00:21:44TRAN: It was probably like high school. Like after I got older I–I wasn’t really part of those dance troupes. Like we would always come here for like Lunar New Year. Um, but as like those like teen years, like I didn’t really—you know, I was hangin’ out with my friends, doing other things. So, I like kind of wasn’t part of the community those years. It wasn’t really until like I returned. So, yeah. During my childhood, I was like really embedded with the community but then the teen years I kind of did my own thing. But I went to DePaul University. So, I moved back to Chicago for college. And through that, like I think there was like—a lot of it during that time was like somewhat of an identity crisis. Like what is—who am—like, you know, who am I? Like am I more Vietnamese or am I like more American? Like kind of, you know, those struggles that a lot of other people in our generation kind of deal with. And beyond our diaspora as well. So, you know, I was questioning like—So, I took a–a bunch of like Asian American classes. I would always like come here. I actually worked from like my freshmen year, sophomore and junior year, I worked at Christopher House which is in Uptown, like with youth. So, we did like a lot of youth development work, one-on-one stuff, like reading skills like that. So, I was like right next—and that’s like right on Leland just south of here. So, I would always, through that, like, you know, Asian American classes, my work, and I started volunteering at like VAI and CMAA (Chinese Mutual Aid Association) in the youth program and as a ESL instructor. So, like through that like I like try to reconnect with this area. Um, but yeah. I think that didn’t really even like kind of answer my questions of what my identity is. So, I decided my junior year to like study abroad in Vietnam. Um, and then my cousin from Texas, one of the ones (something begins to beep)—Oh, can I turn this off?

00:23:41HO: Yeah, of course.

00:23:42TRAN: Yeah, like the idea of like identity, right? Not really confident of who you are. So, I studied abroad and tried to like—Am I more Vietnamese than I realize? Like, I mean, throughout the years like–like, I’m, you know, Vietnamese American. It’s not like black and white. Like identities are so fluid and vast that it, you know, it’s hard to pinpoint in right or wrong, or this kind of dichotomy of identities, you know. So, I was like comfortable in my own skin of like who I am. And the–it–and not defining, you know. Like the Viet–the Vietnamese American experience is so diverse, right? There’s so many different like ways of thought and how we are. So, just being comfortable. Yeah, I’m a Vietnamese American and understanding and realizing like there are many different types of Vietnamese American people and lived experiences as well.

00:24:33HO: Mm-hmm. Okay. I’m really happy you brought that up because like half my questions are about identity and how we define ourselves. Um, I have to say I’m surprised that growing up amongst a bunch of Vietnamese Vietnamese people and Vietnamese Americans, that you–that you are questioning your identity. That surprises me.

00:24:59TRAN: Yeah. I think like that’s the power of media and the power of—I mean, even though like I’m surrounded by the Vietnamese American community, it wasn’t like—and my family—you know, my family, I would say, I’m there every day. But, you know, especially like the challenge and cultural gaps that you have with your parents of that–that generation. There’s challenges and there’s like—you’re going to butt heads, you know. I didn’t understand these like really kind of more traditional conservative ways of, like, thought. And I’m like, that created conflict. So, even though, you know, you do have family around and community, there’s these—if you peel back the layers like there’s always like, you know, a lot of kind of conflict that exists, whatever that structure may be of conflict. So, I think like you know like saying that, you know you, despite having that–that connection and proximity to culture, in every day like when you go to school, it’s—I mean, there are Vietnamese kids but like there’s many more people. And also like we lived in a suburb that was adjacent to like, you know, a all-white, rich suburb. So, we went to school with kids like that and then you—as a kid you hear like, you know, racist things at that time. Like all that, you know, the kids that will say “ching chong” type of stuff, you know? And also the media just influencing your thought of like your identity, and self—rather like, self-worth, you know. So, there’s like–I feel like there’s a lot of different types of influencing factors of what makes up identity and what really crafted my understanding of like what I am, you know, and like challenging that throughout my youth or feeling like I don’t know what it is, I think.

00:27:04HO: Were—I have two questions. What role did your parents play in helping you figure this out? And by that, I mean like directly. Like, would you ask them a lot of questions? And would they be open to like answering them? Like, is this—were you able to talk to them about this kind of identity searching stuff?

00:27:26TRAN: No. I didn’t. There was like really no question or no communication about that.Like I think like my relationship with my parents –like we were―I don’t know if it was like–it’s really close in the sense where I emotionally share my feelings and my challenges. Because I think like that’s the divide, right? Like just ‘cuz you’re in the same room with someone and next to them doesn’t mean you’re like interacting in a very deep meaningful way. Um, so growing up I never really engaged in that level ever with my parents. It was more like “Hey, you know, you’ve got to, like—” There is a lot of challenges and expectations of success and whatever that success might look like. But, no, I never–I never sought out like seeking my parent’s advice in terms of this. And I’m sure like as I get older now, you know I think about, like, maybe I should have, ‘cuz they themselves are going through probably a similar kind of identity crisis for their children. Because like if you’re in Vietnam and you stayed in Vietnam, you raised your kids this way. But now you’re faced with this completely different culture where your kids are no longer what you expected them to be. And that in a way leads to so many different challenges, you know. But like I think over the years my parents probably adapted themselves. And the expectation of, like, I’m never going to raise a Vietnamese kid like they exist in Vietnam, as a Vietnamese American kid, you know. So, yeah, but no, I never really sought that out. I don’t really actually—sought that out—like I kind of looked in and just found external ways to like understand either through books or media. Yeah, growing up I had Asian American friends like in high school that are still my best friends today. But we never–I don’t think we ever really talked about like the identity issue, right? Like are we Asian American? We just kind of lived it together through our common interests and maybe like our common struggles with–that drew us together. I don’t know. But um, yeah. I think it was more like just seeking ways to search for my identity externally either through reading or education or through experiential learning and like living abroad or something, you know. (sniffles)

00:30:01HO: Okay. Thank you for that. You’ve mentioned media and external sources a few times. Were there any, like, you know fictional or real-life heroes that you kind of looked up to or felt a strong connection to? Or any like favorite books or musicians or anything that really like gave you a sense of strength and power?

00:30:24TRAN: Yeah. I guess like real-life heroes, not really. It’s like, right, we talk about the representation of the Asian man in media. It’s like all kung-fu, even though like that’s the case, I did love Jet Li. Like his movies were bad ass, you know. So, me and my cousin would watch, you know, martial arts movies and like–like, yeah, hell yeah. Like this dude’s cool as hell, you know? But yeah, and then you see the larger dominant media and society depicting it. So, that influences like all your “I’m unworthy” type of thoughts, you know, that slowly start growing in your head. Um, music―I have like a weird history with music. Like–like I grew up just listening to like a lot of actually pre-war Vietnamese music and I still love it today. Like there’s–there’s a guy named Trịnh Công Sơn (Trinh Cong Son) who was considered the Bob Dylan of Vietnam. I think Joan Baez said that about him. And he always sang with Khánh Ly (Khanh Ly) and like that duo who was like pre-war. So, that type of music I think it’s called like nhạc vàng (nhac vang, yellow music, more commonly known as Bolero music.) (Note: Son and Ly are usually categorized as Nhạc Trịnh [Nhac Trinh]). My parents loved that so I would always listen to it. And I still love it today. But then like, yeah, my older cousins would listen to weird Euro-dance like, you know, Modern Talking. What did―it’s funny, because it’s like–there’s a documentary coming called “New Wave.” So, it was like a lot of that music that Vietnamese called New Wave but it’s like Euro-Pop, Euro-Trance, or whatever. So, I listened to a lot of that. So, even though it wasn’t Vietnamese, I think like a lot of Vietnamese people listened to that. And like even today, when you like―I hear Modern Talking like (sings) “You’re my heart. You’re my soul. Nah-nah-nah,” like on the block, it’s like all instant like “Yo!” Like that’s like, it sparks some type of, you know, realization or connection to someone else which is― yeah, I don’t know how–why my cousins listened to it, but they did. But I guess like maybe a lot of Vietnamese American in that generation did because now there’s a documentary being made about it, you know.

00:32:38HO: Yeah. I heard about that. It’s really cool.

00:32:40TRAN: Yeah. Books, I think, more identity-wise, Catfish and Mandala (by Andrew X. Pham) was one of the first books that I really kind of―because it talked about–he biked through Vietnam, right? Like he talks about like–it was a page turner. It’s like a memoir and it really resonated with what I was going through at that time. It’s like wow! Like I want to seek—you know, that book didn’t tell you what to think. It was just sharing his experience and I wanted to―in many ways—live that experience too (siren sounds in background), to search and find what any resolution to what challenge of identity I had at the time. Yeah. So, yeah, that book I think.

00:33:21HO: That was a really good book. I had it for years on my bookshelf before I had the courage to read it.

00:33:26TRAN: Yeah. I should re-read it. I haven’t opened it since that one time I read it.

00:33:33HO: The part that sticks out in my head is the part where he says that he was looking at some like muck on the ground or like trash or something and he just felt really ashamed of his country.

00:33:43TRAN: Oh, wow!

00:33:45HO: And, I remember that sticking out to me because I was never proud of my identity at all. So, I’m still working on that honestly. This is your interview, not mine. (both laugh) Um, okay. I really–I really want to go to your study abroad experience. But first, I want to go back to–to this area in your childhood. So, tell me like were there any businesses or organizations on Argyle or–or Uptown–that stick out in your head and what were their names and why were they important to you? Um, and also any like memories that you can share with us.

00:34:20TRAN: Yeah. Yeah. I―so, like I said, I don’t think there’s many businesses that still exist. There are a few, like the grocery stores are still here, like Việt Hoa (Viet Hoa) is still here.

00:34:32HO: How long has―

00:34:33TRAN: I think they’ve been here since like the early—like the ‘80s. Like mid ‘80s until now. So, it’s like forty–forty years plus. Tại Nam (Tai Nam) I think came a little later. Um, but Double Happiness and Hong Kee, so those are all like Chinese restaurants, you know? And those are the ones that kind of have been here the longest and that have sustained over the generations. But Double Happiness is―they’re also refugees from Vietnam, but they’re like Vietnamese Chinese, Teochew Chinese. So, I have like a lot of memories there like going as a kid. The menu it is the same menu from when we–I ate there as a kid. They just photocopied it, whited out the price over, you know, because of inflation. And like now it’s eleven dollars a bowl versus back then it was, like, four. But, it’s still the―it’s like a photocopy and I just remember going in there with my parents and, you know, their friends and their kids, just like having like an ice cold soy milk, eating the dried noodles and just like― And back then, from what I remember like, um, my business partner who is Jennifer Phạm (Jennifer Pham)–her–she grew up here too. And like when we talk about Argyle and our memories of Argyle in the past it’s like—it was so much―like the memory is that the area was so much more bustling. There was so―it was like crowded full of Vietnamese people whereas you see now it’s like almost desolate, you know? And that–that’s for many reasons, I think. But like, yeah. I mean like the memories of–of that was like in–in the VAI, Vietnamese Association of Illinois, used to be just north of Argyle on Broadway in this older building. They moved since then. But it was on the second floor, just like a lot of memories there. Um, like for the new year, giving speeches in Vietnamese to like the elders, just playing and running around the rooms, like with other kids. Yeah, it was just like―yeah, those are fond memories. Like you don’t have any worries, you know. And you just like had fun and like ate food. It was―yeah. I mean those memories stick out to me, I would say.

00:36:45HO: What–what–what would you order to eat at these restaurants, like then and now? Like what are your favorite few things? Like if you had so―like a total―

00:36:52TRAN: That–at that restaurant?

00:36:53HO: Yeah, or anywhere else? Like you and I went to Nhà Hàng (Việt Nam) (Nha Hang Vietnam) the other day.

00:36:56TRAN: Oh, okay. Yeah.

00:36:57HO: So, anywhere at anytime.

00:36:59TRAN: Well, I still love that noodle place. Like I used to eat there like on a regular―and I get the same thing but it’s the same recipe too. So, basically, it’s just like dried egg noodles with like seafood, pork, garlic oil. You throw in your sauces how you want to dress it. And then there’s a bowl of soup on the side. So, that’s one of my favorite meals on Argyle. I love, currently, today, yeah like there’s–there’s like different, restaurants that specialize in different things, even though like, you know, if you walked into a restaurant, there’s like 95 things on the menu. But if you are, you know, if you live here you kind of know what’s good, what restaurant does what well. So like, yeah. Đà Nẵng Kitchen (Da Nang Kitchen), the husband is from Da Nang, like Quảng Nam (Quang Nam), which is center region. So, they do like a lot of like stuff that you don’t seen on other menus like Mì Quảng (Mi Quang), which is like kind of a turmeric rice noodle, seafood, kind of more condensed broth. That’s really good there. For triple s―if you want northern food, Pho 777, his wife is from Hanoi or that region, and she’s brought a lot of northern Vietnamese dishes that are spectacular that you often don’t see actually in restaurants in the U.S. because it’s more southern food. Um, Café Hòang (Cafe Hoang) has really great bún bò Huế (bun bo Hue). They’re from Huế (Hue), which is like that spicy, you know, beef noodle soup that’s really good. So, yeah, like there–there’s a lot of things. Like when I’m craving something, that’s―you know, I’ll know where to go. Um, and like, yeah. When we ate where we ate, Nha Hang Vietnam, they do a lot of like really good southern style food which is nice. Yeah. Then what el―yeah. (both chuckle)

00:38:44HO: Are you here often? Are you in the area often?

00:38:46TRAN: I am, yeah. Since I started this ambassador position―it’s a community ambassador job through the city and through the Chamber. Like I’m here like probably every work day. Like Monday through Friday for parts of the day. But, yeah. I’m always around Argyle. Which is nice, but you know like I never really thought―like literally after college, like I actually moved to Vietnam. So, I studied abroad in Vietnam the year after I studied in Budapest and Hungary. And then I came back, graduated, and then I’m like “Alright, I’m moving to Vietnam.” So, I moved with my two cousins from Texas and we lived there for like three-some years. And I never thought I was going to actually do any type of work in Chicago, let alone like this community. What I wanted to do was like international work, right? Like kind of relief work. I wanted to move back to Vietnam and do like more large-scale, non-governmental organization work. Because my uncle, one of my mom’s younger brothers, like he did a lot of relief work. And he also like moved to Vietnam and worked at Save the Children. He was the country director of Save the Children for a few years and we overlapped and actually he was able to get me an internship. So, I did like non-governmental work in Vietnam. I moved to Hội An (Hoi An), which is also in Quang Nam in central Vietnam and I worked for Lệ Lý Hayslip (Le Ly Hayslip). She is the author and there’s a movie that Oliver Stone did about her. It’s called like “What hea–Heaven and Earth” I think it’s called? So, she has an organization there and I worked for her for like a year. So, I’ve always thought like “Hey, I’m going to go back.” The only reason I came back to Chicago really was to go to grad school, to do like urban planning. But I did international planning, with the intention of like going back to Vietnam or living abroad. But it was like during that research and like during those years I worked in Uptown, and like a lot of my research pivoted to more local things and like more so like, um, research on Argyle. You know, like through the lens of urban planning it’s like cultural preservation of a community. You know, I saw that, you know, there’s a lot of gentrification happening. We’re right next to the lake. You know, property values are increased like―and I remember just coming back here and it’s just like this is–doesn’t feel like Argyle of my youth. You know, like I said earlier, like it just felt busy. People came here all the time. And it just didn’t feel that, and there was a lot of closures, a lot of, you know, different things. So, eventually, you know, like I got involved and did a lot of different things, post-graduation, for Argyle. And that’s what like really made me want to stay in this community.

00:41:37HO: I saw a pattern, when you were talking just now, that you wanted to go back to Vietnam, and also your dad did, too, at some point. (Tran coughs) But neither it―I’m assuming your dad never went back to live.

00:41:49TRAN: To live, no. But he did, when I lived there, he came to visit. Um, but he never―he even, yeah, growing up like even his later years, he always said like “I want return and live there.” But it never happened, you know. I still have a desire to like, you know, go back to Vietnam and like, maybe not live forever, because I don’t think there’s like―I mean this idea of impermanence is probably the only permanent thing. Like I would like to return to Vietnam and live again. I think it’s a different―I think for Vietnamese Americans to return to Vietnam and like live there, it’s a–it’s a–it’s a different experience in understanding your identity as just a Vietnamese American. Like it’s like–it’s–it’s in touch with your culture. But that culture has also progressed, you know? Like I think like the idea of―And there’s so many different waves of like immigration, of like refugees in the ‘90s. Up until now, there’s still Vietnamese people coming here. So, this idea of the Vietnamese American experience is always changing and always fluid. But the ones that, I think that first wave of people, like held on to a–a culture of Vietnam that is, in many ways, no longer, um, present in Vietnam today. It’s been forty, fifty years. That culture evolves and changes. So, like the idea of like going there, it’s like experiencing something new but familiar, you know, and that’s, like, exciting. But also, like realizing “Hey, I’m not–this is–I’m not from here, and I’m not―” Like I think for me it’s no longer the seeking out affirmation of identity but just living and learning and realizing that I–I have many friendships with like Vietnamese people in Vietnam and like realizing like we are―we had different lived experiences. But there is that–that common sort of like Vietnamese culture that always exists that is a bond, you know. So, I feel like that like going back was more about like learning and sustaining friendships and embracing something new.

00:44:12HO: Thank you. Um, you mentioned a common thread. This is a question I ask myself a lot as someone who is still trying to figure out the identity piece of myself. Like what, in your mind, what are those threads that make us–that make us Vietnamese or Vietnamese American?

00:44:36TRAN: What makes us Vietnamese or Vietnamese American?

00:44:43HO: That’s a hard question, I know.

00:44:44TRAN: Yeah, that’s really hard. Um, yeah. Man. Well, I know for one, right? Like regardless of like whatever Vietnamese American experience there may be, or Vietnamese experience, like this is like cliché and lame, I think. But like literally like the easiest thing to say is food, right? I mean–I’ve think that transcends the Vietnamese culture too. I think like you―the easiest way to connect and relate to someone is over a meal, right? Like it’s–it is that. Um, and that’s the thing. Like everywhere I go in the U.S. or even the world, I always go to like Little Saigon or Viet Town or whatever it is. I remember in Prague, like I sought out like the Vietnamese area. So, it’s like always like I don’t know if it’s like food, but maybe that’s just like a metaphor for something larger, like the seeking of–of home, of–of ― And that’s the weird thing. Like I’m comfortable in my own skin yet you go and you seek a diaspora of your culture as if it’s―you’re missing something, you know? But, or maybe it’s just familiarity, I don’t know. It’s always like I want like a bowl of pho or a bánh mì (banh mi, a sandwich) or even something beyond, you know, those two common dishes like everywhere you go. So, I think food is like something that really kind of connects people. But like also maybe it’s that–that thing I’m alluding to like searching, even though you may be confident of your identity, it’s― I don’t know if we’re lost, you know? Especially if people within that like the refugee diaspora. Like you could be comfortable and get to a point of like “I am Vietnamese American.” But maybe there’s always something you’re searching for, um, that’s like subconscious. I don’t know. And I think that’s―and I do see that a little bit with like the people I work with on this block, right? Even with my–my business partner. It’s like “Hey, we want to create cultural events and things.” But, you know, because like the–the fear, the reason why I stayed here was like, it’s almost the fear of, like, erasure. Right. It’s like the fear of like―I mean you see half this block. It’s like, empty. So, it’s like if once this is erased, if it is, maybe part of your identity is gone too. I don’t know. I think I’m going on a tangent, but I― Yeah. Because like I–even though like, you know, a place doesn’t officially make who you are but those like lived experiences in the space, the public realm, the physical realm, it’s strong. Like there is like ― right? It evokes memories and memories is like what like you asked me earlier, like if― I’m going to be real sad when Double Happiness closes. Because that―I don’t know if the kids will take over. Like those are like—and memories fade. So, it’s like if this–if this place is like―and I think that’s why cultural preservation and, like, efforts to kind of sustain cultural corridors is vital, because place matters and it–it’s part of your identity. And I think like yeah, wherever I go it’s like finding that slice of home, you know. Yeah. I don’t know.

00:48:27HO: Yeah. I think I know what you’re talking about. Like my, um―actually this is your interview. We’ll talk―

00:48:34TRAN: Oh no. Go ahead. I do want to hear.

00:48:37HO: You do? Okay. So, I was born in the Chicago suburbs.

00:48:40TRAN: Oh, okay.

00:48:41HO: And so my–my parents lived in the suburbs, and my–my bà ngoại (ba ngoai) lived with them. And so, she always wanted to come here to Argyle to go grocery shopping. I have no memory of that because I was like four when we left,to go to San Diego. But when I came back, knowing that she had been here just felt like a connection to her, you know? (starts to cry) Yeah, it just felt–I’ve just felt like a connection to her, even though I had never seen her on this block or, anything like I was there with her, so―

00:49:17TRAN: Yeah. That’s the power of place, and knowing, right?

00:49:22HO: Yeah. Our identity is built on place. It really is. I mean this whole project is–is about place.

00:49:27TRAN: Yeah.

00:49:29HO: Vietnamese–Vietnam and America. So, yeah. I get you.

00:49:32TRAN: Thanks for sharing that.

00:49:34HO: Yeah. (chuckles) I (pause) definitely have follow-up questions but I don’t know where to go with them. You mentioned that Vietnamese Americans are a monolith. I mean, not a monolith, sorry. (both chuckle) So, and we talked about like what’s a common thread, which is really hard to answer. But thank you for doing a good job with that. Um, how do you find yourself different from other Vietnamese Americans? And I don’t mean better or worse. Just different.

00:50:11TRAN: No, I think there are a lot of differences. I think like, you know, like I’ve–I have a lot of Vietnamese American friends that lived in Vietnam with me, right? So, we–and we had that shared experience of like Việt Kiều (Viet Kieu, overseas Vietnamese, or the Vietnamese diaspora) living in Vietnam. But we were different as well. Like they grew up in larger diasporas of Vietnamese community, like SoCal or Orange County, you know. And I think like being—the difference might be—number one—like you know, language. The embracing of like what is considered the dominant idea of Vietnamese American culture. Yeah, I feel like—dang, this is hard to explain. Like the difference lies in (sighs)—See the thi–, the idea is like, “what is Vietnamese?” To me it’s like–it’s hard to even like grasp, right? Like and it’s like almost like if you start identifying things it becomes like oh this stereotypical thing. Um, but I don’t know. There’s a guy on Instagram, Sup Dawk. He always like shows like Chú Hài (Chu Hai), like those like—That’s like real Vietnamese, like karaoke, you know. Those are like, you know, it’s kind of stereotypical Vietnamese. Like I feel like, I mean, if–if you want to point to something like, I mean, yeah, you see it in Vietnam all over. And like Vietnamese American communities like nhậu (nhau, drinking and socializing), you know. In a way, those represent community in a way, right? I think like–I think the heart of it is like is collectivism of shared experience and shared identity. And where I think I differ oftentimes and that–that’s why I think, even today like working in this community like the difference it boils down to like this idea of like–of more individualistic kind of outlook on life. Even though I’m part of a community and I engage in community, but like there are certain boundaries that I draw within my own identity. And I think that’s not a very “Vietnamese” thing, I would say. I think that’s, I think, more of a western concept. Um, so I mean I don’t even know where I’m getting at, maybe like the idea of a more collective experience versus a more kind of insular approach to life and straddling those two kind of thoughts.

00:52:48HO: Tell me more about having boundaries around your identity.

00:52:53TRAN: You know, like just like simple things like I’m on the block I used to work at—Southeast Asia Center—as a case worker, or a social service case worker. So, I had a lot of Vietnamese clients, like of many generations. And like the other day I ran into one of my clients. He is an older gentleman, like former Viet–South Vietnam vet. (clears throat) And he knows I used to work for the—like just boundaries like asking like “Oh, oh, you–you make more better money now” type of like “Oh, you look like fatter now.” It’s like that ease of that generation and how I—because I may be born here and have inherited, you know, different cultural learnings, that’s a little weird to me. And like “No. I’m not going to tell you how much I make.” And like it’s like, you know, so, it’s like kind of like navigating that, those like minor hiccups or maybe conflicts on a daily–or when you interact with like different generations.

00:54:02HO: Okay.

00:54:03TRAN: The expectation of what it is to be Vietnamese or you lose your roots, you know. It’s like I think a certain generation is going to say “Oh, you mat goc,” or you—all that stuff. But like have we really? Like have we lost our roots? Maybe we just have a different identity, you know, rather than like having this one monolith mold of what it is to be Vietnamese. I think it’s—for any ident–for any culture, any race. Like there’s no one. That’s–I think that’s dangerous, right? But yeah. I don’t know if that answers the question.

00:54:41HO: Yeah. It absolutely did. Thank you. How do—This is going to be another tough one. I’m sorry. How do people in the Vietnamese American community see you?

00:55:02TRAN: I don’t know how they see me. I can–I feel like I have a perception of how they perceive me. I don’t fully know, right? I don’t think like we can fully know how they see you. I think it varies between like what are, you know, the generations and the subcultures of Vietnamese people. I think for the peop–like the younger generation here and then especially with the work like kind of like activating space and doing like creative projects I think like, not only the Vietnamese American youth or people in my generation but like, you know, other Asian Americans, look at like me and my business partner who have HAIBAYÔ (HAIBAYO) as like kind of, you know, creative—maintaining not only Vietnamese culture but like Vietnamese American culture and treating experiences that are lived, not of the past but like it’s currently going on. But, wait. The question was, how do you think people view you, right?

00:56:10HO: Mm-hmm.

00:56:11TRAN: I really don’t know. Like I think like there’s a sense of—when I see the older generation of people—it varies. Like I think there’s some people—My perception, and maybe it’s clouded of, you know, oftentimes like self-doubt and like my own insecurities of things, anxiety, whatever. I might feel like “Oh, they’re like—maybe they think I’m not Vietnamese enough.” You know, maybe they like, you know, I’m not doing the same things they’re doing. You know, I’m not like—And even you often don’t see many like—I think in the Vietnamese diaspora of the older generation of success of a younger person is like, right, you–you’ve heard that “oh, if you’re a doctor or lawyer…like how are you going to make money?” Like I haven’t followed that path and like none of my cousins and like a lot of people—and that’s the thing too. Like a lot of Vietnamese Americans that I connect with don’t follow that path. So, I think like even within —there’s a divide between like the people that don’t follow that trajectory of like just making money and more people who follow more creative pathways to like their own career. I think I resonate more with that subculture anyway. So, like I’m surrounded by those people and a lot of them are Vietnamese American. So, like with those people like I feel like there’s just common understanding because like we— But sometimes when I’m in circles where there’s like “Hey, I’m like doctor, accountant…” like there’s not much of a connect beyond the surface level things, right? Oh like food, small talk, things like that. But I think it’s like, that’s the difference within this generation. But yeah. With an older generation of Vietnamese American, like I don’t know. Sometimes I feel like I hear compliments. Sometimes I–I hear people say like “You, you’re not even Viet—” like, you know. So, it varies. But what I—my perception it’s–it’s a whole gamut of like how people view you. And you can’t control that ultimately, you know. I can’t control if they view me that way and–and is it even worth it to–to make me lose sleep. Sometimes, you know, those who matter don’t mind and those who mind don’t matter, I guess. But, yeah, you can’t—for me, I don’t really—yeah, I don’t know. Like I used to like really care about that in terms of like—or not care, but like it would eat me up. Like yeah, like, fuck, am I Vietnamese enough for this person? But like everyone has a different opinion. It’s like a bowl of pho. What’s good pho? You know? I recently made like more northern pho and gave it to southern people. They hate it! Because it’s too salty. It’s— pho is supposed to be sweet for southerners, you know? So, it’s a challenge, yeah. Like I used to let it like really eat–eat away at me but at this point like you can only live your most authentic self, whatever that may be. Yeah.

00:59:25HO: What about your parents? Did they ever try to instill some sense of what–what you should be as a person or as a Vietnamese person?

00:59:35TRAN: Yeah. I think like number one where it was like language, I would say. Um, and that—my Vietnamese has like only gotten better because I lived in Vietnam and like I worked in community. But like—and also I made an effort to try to practice it more. But like I didn’t really—like in my teen years, I never even really spoke Vietnamese. And like at that age I never would engage with people. Like my people our age, like I would just speak English. I still speak English with my cousins, you know? Um, but yeah. There was always that kind of language aspect. Um, just like weird customs—not weird but it’s like customs that could be conflicting with like, you know, things here. I don’t know. But it—I don’t feel like—I think both my sister and I were—we pushed the envelope. Like we challenged them a lot in terms of like— surprisingly, they were old, of a older generation. Like the gap between my father and me is like 50 years and then my mom is like in her 70s. So, they’re like a little older than, you know, some other Vietnamese folks. So, I think as someone of that generation to come here, like you would imagine them being extremely traditional. And they–they in some ways they are. But I think like that relationship and of realizing too like “Hey.” I don’t know. I’ve never talked to them about this. But maybe like they’ve accepted like “Hey, this is like who my–who my kids are.” And like you can instill and try to push for certain preserv–preservation of certain cultural customs here and there. But also realizing that maybe, yeah, maybe like you can’t fully pass everything down —I think. I mean, yeah. That’s how I feel.

01:01:38HO: Okay. Last question on this topic. How do you see yourself?

01:01:48TRAN: How do I see myself? I guess in the realm of identity, of culture, if we’re talking about Vietnamese American, yeah, I–I feel like I’m one of many identities of what Vietnamese American is, and it’s always evolving. I see myself as— I don’t like to say like certain things, like about—you know, like toot my own horn but like I feel like I am becoming one of the community leaders of this area. I take like—you know, I’m honored to do that, to be one of many who are, you know, stepping up in this second generation and trying to preserve culture but also like creating new and fresh things that tie to a culture. So, like, yeah. I view myself as someone who cares about, you know, this–this specific community of Argyle and the Vietnamese community here in Chicago. Because it’s not big. It’s not, you know? And it ties back to self, of home. Like how can I sustain it so that part of me is not gone? Um, but yeah. I don’t know. Like I don’t–I don’t really think about—or I haven’t for a long time thought about—what it means as my identity of Vietnamese American. I haven’t—it’s been a while actually. I think I would say that I’m more confident in–in the cultural, whatever those cultural components that I–that I hold onto and that I value. I’m more confident in that now than I was like 20 years ago. Um, but yeah. I don’t—That’s–that’s a hard question. (starts to chuckle, and Ho joins in)

01:03:57HO: That’s good that you haven’t really thought about it. In my mind, that’s —it sounds like you found peace then within yourself.

01:04:03TRAN: Yeah. I think––yeah, I do feel that I’m at more at peace in terms of that–that realm of identity than I was before.

01:04:16HO: Um, so you mentioned that you, everywhere you go, you look for Little Saigon or whatever, wherever the diaspora is.

01:04:25TRAN: Yeah.

01:04:26HO: So, we’re talking about place now. Um, what are some–what are some places, what are some cities where–where the–where you find that the community is really interesting or exceptional in some way?

01:04:42TRAN: Yeah. Let me think. Okay. I have to think back at all those Little Saigons I’ve been to. Well, I mean the obvious is probably like foodwise and like just the level of like claiming space and calling the space home. I feel like the bigger areas where there’s more Vietnamese people, there’s just so much diversity and food experience that you can get, right? I’ve been at L.A. a few times but I always like go and visit my friends that live down there and like, it feels like in a way —and that’s why I think Little Saigons are created. It’s like Vietnam in many ways or whatever that Vietnam may be. So, it’s like a sense of ease. So, like San Jose is huge too. I’ve been there a few times. But I think like the most–the ones that stand out in my mind and that what’s most interesting actually might be probably like eastern Europe because it’s a different diaspora. And it’s a different migration pattern than the Little Saigon or, you know, Saigon whatever. Because there I don’t think they don’t call it Little Saigon. It’s more the northern folk that went to the former eastern bloc and lived there and created community there. So, it’s like a completely different experience. But there’s still like this idea–like I remember like in Budapest too when I was living there. Like I sought out Vietnamese people. And it was a completely different identity than my own, right, than my parents. They fought –these are people that I guess in a way won the war, right? They’re not the ones that fled because of like the collapse of Saigon. They went for economic opportunity or they were part of like the communist government back then or as diplomats. But they built their community there. So, I think those are interesting. Like it–it doesn’t resonate or there’s no strong tie to my own experience and my family’s experience. But there is still like this weird human connection of being Vietnamese. Even the politically—it’s so different, right? And I remember like hung out with like a bunch of like, you know, northern Vietnamese people. This was after I studied abroad in Vietnam, too. So, in a way I was more open to that, you know? But I–I think like east, like Czech Republic, like Prague, was interesting. Budapest’s Vietnamese community was interesting. But I also like find Paris really interesting, because that’s like a lot of Vietnamese people there are like—probably went there even before ’75, you know. So, it’s like this understanding of identity of are they more French or are they more—? and like the food is different, you know. So, I found that to be the historical layers of–of migration and also identity within those communities differ. But there’s always this wanting to go there and eating the food and learning about the Vietnamese community despite all of that. I mean, yeah. Those are—I’m trying to—there’s no–there’s—I was in Mexico recently but there’s no Vietnamese town. But I went to Chinatown though which is interesting. But yeah. I would really be interested in seeing more Viet towns. I mean I think mostly it’s in the U.S., you know, like the places where people went. But eastern Europe was interesting.

01:08:37HO: Um, hmm. Okay. Um, who are some of the community leaders around here that people should know about. And actually, I wanted to talk about Jenny Pham and how–how did you two initially meet?

01:08:59TRAN: Our parents are friends. So, they knew each other. So, my dad—So, there’s like a whole group of people who graduated from this program in Da Lat. It’s like a college in Da Lat, Vietnam. It’s called Chính trị, Kinh doanh (Chinh tri, Kinh doanh), so it’s like political and business major at Da Lat University. So, my dad —that group kind of met because they all are like alumni. (coughs) And her mom—sorry, excuse me—her mom was an alumni. My father was an alumni. (sniffles) And also there was another gentleman. His name is Tâm. Nguyễn Văn Tâm (Nguyen Van Tam). He is a community leader here. He actually works with me as an Ambassador Program. But he worked for many, many years at Vietnamese Association of Illinois. And now he’s at CMAA. But he’s like in his 80s. So, he’s like been a community leader consistently for the last–since he’s come here since the early 80s. But yeah. Like me and Jennifer, our parents know each other through that circle. We used to play piano together. There was a Vietnamese lady from Hue. Her name was like Cô Lạc Nhân (Co Lac Nhan). And she lived, surprisingly funny, on Mozart Avenue. And she had like 50 Vietnamese students, piano students. So, like through that too, like there was that community. So, I played piano with her and her brother. And she was like part of Viet — like just the same circle of growing up. But she’s a little older than me. So. then I hung out more with her brother at the time we were younger. (sniffles) Um, but that’s how I know her. And then we—actually we never really kept in touch. Like we would always know that we’re around. Like I ran into her like in Chicago like a few times here and there. But it wasn’t until like mid-2010s, 2015-16 or whatever where we reconnected. I was actually—I started another organization with a former friend who was also part of this community. She’s Tam’s— Chú Tam’s (Chu Tam’s) daughter. So, she was like, you know, grew up with us and so she’s younger than us a little. But her and I along with another few people actually started Axis Lab. But there was like challenges in working together. Um, just differences on vision. I think they still exist but I don’t know how functional they are. But her and I are co-founders of that. I eventually left. And then Jennifer was part of it but then she left as well. And her and I reconnected. We connected like prior to Axis Lab. Like we invited Jennifer in through that like kind of like that relationship was forged again and that friendship. And then after we both left like we connected. Hey, we wanted to like do something again on Argyle like maybe a year after. And that’s how HAIBAYO initially started. And I think you’ve been to a few—like it was really like more of like, Hey, you know, a lot of what Axis Lab did was really beautiful, right? It was like really curated, well thought out. But sometimes it’s a challenge working with–with pe—you know. Not everyone can work together. Um, but like, yeah. We started HAIBAYO and just kind of wanted to make it like a fun party. But also, that had culture, right? Like there was like food. We always had a food vendor. And we worked with the business on this block. Like at each different event it was always a different food restaurateur. (sniffles) And like I think you–like when you had Lawrence and Argyle you were at one or two of those events. You know, like so like building those networks and curating something that was within the younger or second generation Asian American identity yet also kind of honoring the past. That’s how we, yeah–that’s how we–I reconnected with her. And she–her father I think was like the first Vietnamese business owner on this block. Because this area used to be, prior to the fall of Saigon and a lot of influx of refugees from Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos, this area used to be more Chinese. So, there was a–I think it was like after the Tong Wars, you know, like with the Chinese Chinatown Tongs. Like Chinatown on the south side is run by like one Tong which is now like more of an association rather than, you know, its checkered past. And then here it’s Hip Sing which has like connections to San Francisco and New York. So, they actually came here first and bought up all the land and buildings. This was like kind of a, what urban planners like to say blighted, right? A blighted area. And people just started coming here after, you know, the war, and it became more southeast Asian and more Vietnamese even though there’s still a lot of Chinese. And a lot of ethnic Chinese from Vietnam came here, as well. So, I don’t even know where I’m getting. But anyhow like I think like, yeah. I forgot where I–what direction I’m going in.

01:14:02HO: Um, we were talking about Jenny’s family’s business.

01:14:07TRAN: Oh, yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah. He was like the first Vietnamese business because it was mostly Chinese businesses, and she is still part of—And that pharmacy (Mini Thương Xá Pharmacy, Mini Thuong Xa Pharmacy) is still here. And I think, I don’t want to speak for her. But she does––one thing she tells me, and often, and she does say it and she shares with other people like her–she herself didn’t think she was going to stay here either. But she said that there was a moment in the past where her dad was thinking about retiring and selling this pharmacy, this family pharmacy, to like CVS. And that sparked something in her that brought her back here. And through that and, you know, she has her own journey and her own story which I’m not going to say for her. But that one thing like, through that, I think that allowed us to reconnect. (clears throat and sniffles)

01:15:02HO: You’ve talked about this a little bit. But what do you think it is that–that keeps us doing what you were doing. And I guess when I say “us” I mean people like you and–and her. Um, is it obligation? Is it, um, you’ve mentioned fear of erasure?

01:15:22TRAN: I think it’s more like for a lot–I’ll speak independent for me. Like I’ve said in many past interviews with folks that it’s like carrying on the cultural legacy of our parents. And to a certain degree, I still believe that but a lot of this work I think too is for one’s self and for others like us, um, of like a younger generation. Because we can’t move backward. We can only move forward. And you can never forget where you come from either. So like honoring those past histories but also thinking about the now and the challenges that exist now. And yeah. Are we going to exist? We’ll always exist as independently into the future regardless of the spaces here or not. But is that value of like that fear of erasure of–of displacement of like, you know. Like I could just go to a Vietnamese restaurant but like there’s something else about when you–you go to a corridor or a larger community that is your diaspora and you have those connections and you have like—That’s why like Chinatowns, Little Saigons are important, right? And the cultural preservation of these cultural districts is vital because of like—it is identity. It is community and–and it’s okay to have like ethnic enclaves in cities. I don’t—A lot of people say like “Oh, I don’t want to be, you know, labelled as like just living in a Chinatown.” But those are like—it–there’s a beauty in having that space and honoring and carrying on those cultural legacies and also evolving, adapting to what it is that is your identity. I think like we did get a large grant to open up a cultural events space and that’s gonna—It’s not gonna be like—It’s going to be our own experience because our visions and our experience will, you know, will define that space, you know. So, it is–it’s Vietnamese American, and we really want to push like the history of Argyle storytelling and highlighting other people. But yeah, as I think it’s important, right? Especially for this community right now. There’s so many vacancies and like, how do we mobilize now because there’s so many external forces that are going to impact this area in a negative way, right? The–there’s—for years there was this Streetscape project that took two to three years that impacted local businesses. The CTA (Chicago Transit Authority, or in this instance, specifically the “el” or elevated train) is getting fixed right now. You know, obviously like it’s good to have like infrastructure that is ADA accessible. But also a lot of small businesses are hurt. There’s been like nine closures since the pandemic and this train system, or this train construction happened during that time. So, yeah. They’re like—So now is the time of like, how do we connect with other community leaders? And collectively like start envisioning and identifying the challenges and the opportunities and things like that to sustain this cultural legacy of this area. And the good thing is like the governor of this state in 2021 passed a bill saying like certain areas, geographic areas could be culture districts. So, I don’t know what that looks like on a hyperlocal level, but that is a law in the state of Illinois. Um, but I’m very excited about the future. Even though like now is like—I think there’s so much opportunity right now. This district elected the first Vietnamese American politician. He’s a friend of ours, Hoàn Huỳnh (Hoan Huynh). So, we work like with him like being connected to like CMAA, Chinese Mutual Aid Association. They were founded by a Vietnamese Chinese man, refugee, but have evolved and like done a lot of different really cool, innovative things for this area. So, just having like—And then there’s a–the alderperson is a Filipina–queer Filipina American woman that, you know— How do we kind of convene and really think about strategically carrying on this—or preserving this—culture in this district. Um, I think it’s–it’s critical, you know?

01:19:54HO: So, you plan to stick around for a while and be part of the—.

01:19:56TRAN: Yeah. I have. I plan to.

01:19:59HO: That’s great. What is the definition of cultural district? Like how did they define it when they—or–or do you know?

01:20:11TRAN: No. I need to look up that.

01:20:12HO: Okay. (both laugh). No worries. Um, okay. So, I–so you’ve been–you’ve been back–you’ve been to Vietnam many times, it sounds like.

01:20:25TRAN: No. I’ve only been there twice, actually.

01:20:26HO: Oh really!

01:20:28TRAN: Yeah. But, um, the first time was like study abroad. Then I went before and stayed after a little just to travel. So, that was like eight months or so, six–seven months. And then I moved back for like three years.

01:20:41HO: Okay.

01:20:42TRAN: But that was like twenty-eight to twenty-eleven, 2008 to 2011. So, I actually haven’t been back to Vietnam in thirteen years, or twelve years at this point.

01:20:50HO: Okay.

01:20:52TRAN: Um, and it’s changed probably drastically.

01:20:53HO: I’m sure.

01:20:54TRAN: Yeah.

01:20:55HO: Yeah. Um, how are you doing on like energy right now?

01:20:58TRAN: Oh, I’m good.

01:20:59HO: You’re good?

01:21:00TRAN: Yeah.

01:21:01HO: What time is it? What time is it?

01:21:03TRAN: 12:16.

01:21:04HO: Okay. Cool. Um, so I want to–I want to ask like how— I’m sure every time you go–both times you’ve gone to Vietnam, you’ve come back changed in some way, affected in some way.

01:21:20TRAN: Yeah, I would say so.

01:21:21HO: Can you–can you talk a bit about–about that?

01:21:24TRAN: Yeah. I think the first time I went was— The reason why I went was like, you know, it tied to like that–the idea of identity. Um, also it was beyond just identity, right? Like for me, to go to Vietnam was also to–to learn about my dad’s—like it–it was not intentional. But I–what happened when I was there is that I met his family. (sniffles) You know, I met his brother. I met his older sister, and I met his entire family that he—really I never knew about in my entire life. And like to forge those relationships—it was like odd at first because like I didn’t know them. But they were so generous and close, right? Um, or o–being open to like this level of closeness. So, I found that really, for me, like really heartwarming to have this–this family in this faraway space that I’ve never met and like forging those relationships and creating lived experiences with them. So, that was like a very personal like family thing that I was buil–was able to build. Um, but yeah. I think like — Could you repeat the question one more time?

01:22:43HO: Yeah. How did your trips there affect you?

01:22:47TRAN: Oh, okay. Um, so yeah. On a personal level—family, it affected me that way. Identity-wise, it really, really like—There was a lot of things that I realized about my identity that I wasn’t like—I was searching like, am I Vietnamese, right? And I think like that became clearer—is that you could still embrace certain cultural customs and traditions and still be whatever you are. So, I think I–it–those years in Vietnam allowed me see like hey, you know, there are certain instances that I experienced that how I am, like a little more western. Um, and that–and I’m fine with that. So, like it solidified my own identity, as being like Vietnamese American, whatever that may mean. But also I think career-wise it really—like I worked in like different realms of like non-profit and like non-governmental in Vietnam. Um, and I think that kind of really solidified like my passion for working with community and building something with others. I saw a lot of poverty. I’ve seen things that like I never thought I would see, you know? Like going into the very rural areas and seeing poverty and lack of access and lack of resource was like eye-opening. I remember like driving up to the mountains in Da Nang and we were working with a family who the father was a south Vietnamese—he fought for the south. And his two sons who are like twenty—They were older than me at the time. Like I think I was like in my twenties. But they were like approaching thirty. They were like two brothers and they had like Agent Orange. And like because of his alliances with the south Vietnamese like they get nothing from the government. So, to see that this like completely different trajectory of like what it is to be Vietnamese from this place of war. Also like, you know, it humbled me, my–like myself in terms of how lucky I am to exist where I exist today. Because like I could have been completely different. And to see that in Vietnam, especially then my second time around, that’s where I worked. Like I worked with street youth. I worked—like it was things that you, living here I never thought. I mean there’s poverty here, right? There’s so many issues that exist in this country, with like any country. But like, yeah, that was—that impacted me in terms of like wanting to follow a certain path that is, you know, not about money. Because money doesn’t ultimately matter, you know, when— And also another thing I learned too is like, you know, despite—and this—I don’t like saying this. But there is a sense of like this human connection. In Vietnamese, they say like—and that’s where it’s interesting when I go back and talk about like this idea of like more individualistic and which I think there are the certain boundaries that I draw for myself and my identity. But like a lot of it too, like what I really found beautiful about Vietnam like they say like, “sống với tình cảm (song voi tinh cam),” like to live with like, you know, tinh cam, I think that means like–like emotion or human connection or something. And I think that’s very real, and I experienced in Vietnam. You can become friends with someone that you’re just sitting outside and having a coffee. I became friends with people because of that openness. And you learn about that person, and you forge whatever relationship you want to forge with them. And I do feel like I miss that especially when I came back to the states. Like I missed that human connection, you know. I felt very alienated here. And then, you know, over time now I don’t feel that. I feel like those kind of cultural, collective community bonds that exist within the Vietnamese culture happens here, right? Like it’s—despite like how much that I don’t know how people look at me, but like interacting with them and having that sense of community is like, it–in many w–yeah, it makes you feel part of something, you know. To feel accepted and to feel, yeah, to be part of something is important. So I think like those are the takeaways that I’ve—the key ones for me in my life from my experience in Vietnam, I would say.

01:27:31HO: That’s great. Yeah. I feel like when I–when I came here, the community was very open and welcoming. So, I think that you and the people here have everything to do with that, that just sharing that openness. So, I definitely see that. Are there any questions about yourself, your identity that you’re still asking?

01:27:58TRAN: Mmm. I don’t think so. I think I’m—I don’t question it. What I realize is that, yeah, like my identity will evolve to s—you know, like, and that’s the evolution of who we are is based off of different types of experiences. Like I don’t know like where we’ll be and how I’ll feel about myself and my identity of being Vietnamese American in a year or two years from now if, you know, when we open up space. There’s more—I don’t know, like, what I’ll be then. So, I think like it’s not more about questioning but it’s more about curiosity and being open to like letting life impact you. You have to take the good and the bad, I guess, and how that will change you and who you are. Yeah, because I feel like there’s going to be really great things for this community if we work together collect— (at this point, his phone rings) oh.

01:29:09HO: Is that the alarm?

01:29:10TRAN: Yeah. But yeah. If we work together and yeah, you–we change, you know. Like once you’re pushed onto like a larger stage of this community and building community, you embrace that change and you embrace that evolved identity of yourself. I don’t know. (laughs)

01:29:32HO: No, that’s great. Thank you. I have two more questions. I know we’re super low on time. So, I’ll just ask them real quick. Um, what do you—so, there’s a–there’s a very contentious, often contentious relationship between the Black community and the Asian American community.

01:29:53TRAN: Yeah.

01:29:55HO: And I wanted to get your thoughts on that.

01:29:58TRAN: Yeah. I mean I—you know when especially—that there is, right? I remember when a lot of that—it was a few years ago—I mean that’s still—I mean these issues happen today. I believe that, you know, there is a–an entire distrust and a gap or a lack of understanding between the Black and Asian community. And I think a lot of it, from the Asian perspective, is perpetuated within—I don’t know if it’s racism. I’ve seen it in Vietnam in the sense where oftentimes like this idea and this larger kind of idea of color, colorism, influences and–and–and makes way into someone’s mind of value of the human, right? Like in Vietnam if you work in the fields, you’re darker and you’re poor. And I think a lot of that has influenced certain people and like this cultural understanding of colorism of class and human worth which is—when you assess it, I mean, it’s fucked up. I think like—and also like the struggle of the Black community here it’s—for me, as an Asian American and Vietnamese American as much as there’s been trauma and hardship from our diaspora, there’s—like to be enslaved by white people for 400+ years and to suddenly be expected to—and that have no resources and still feel the racism, like to me I think that is atr–outrageous. And I think there needs to be more understanding from—like for us, like especially if our parents and the older generation hold onto these ideas of what they view as certain, you know, negative stereotypes of Black people, it’s our responsibility, if we don’t believe that, you break those barriers and talk to our parents, um, and talk to like those–the elders. Because it’s not okay. Like I think we can’t sit here and talk about like our trauma and our struggles and hope that the larger dominant racist society accepts us without doing the same to other communities of color. And there are similar threads but it’s incomparable in terms of like what Black people have experienced in this country versus like Vietnamese people. And I don’t want to play “oppression Olympics” but that is true, right? Like Vietnamese people weren’t slave–enslaved for 400 years here. Yeah, we were forced from our land politically, but we weren’t stripped from our land and viewed as not human. So, I think like it’s important for our generation and I think a lot of younger generations are—who live here and like, you know, when you live in America you’re embraced and you’re surrounded by other cultures and you learn and you expand and you grow. I think that’s critical in terms of like this idea of like, you know, the—of justice and equity. Um, a lot of younger generations even like after like Gen Z Asian Americans are way more open-minded than previous generations. But it’s–it’s going to take a lot of collective effort. But it does start with yourself and really challenging your beliefs. A lot of—I’ve talked to like other Asian Americans who don’t—like they just inherit this racist ideology from their parents, and they view Black people this way or this or that way. It’s like, yeah, you have to—you know, you have conversations, and you try to critically analyze why they think the why they do. And sometimes they just don’t care and that’s—but it does start with conversation and challenging those really kind of toxic, deadly beliefs.

01:34:05HO: You mentioned having conversations with elders. Have you been able to do that?

01:34:09TRAN: Yeah. Actually like a few years ago, I sent an email to like, my whole family, like all the elders about like Asians and like how—and Black Lives Matter. (sniffles) And there’s some people that didn’t respond because I think they probably hold on to those—I don’t know. But that–there’s family members that—I’m lucky enough that most of my family members actually are pretty liberal even in that generation. But there’s some that are, you know, that voted for Trump and that have consistently voted not in their own interests unless it’s just about money. I don’t know. But yeah. Like I sent an email and my father like wrote a whole thing and shared stuff like about Black Lives Matter. So, like that was like really—like I think I’m lucky because my mom and my dad like—my dad was an educator, I would say. Like that’s where I think he views himself even though he has like done different things. And my mom has been like a case–like a social worker working with youth and tons of immigrant families from like all over the world. So, like they inherited a lot more love for humanity and understanding and breaking down those barriers. And I think my sister and I inherited that, you know.

01:35:28HO: That’s great. That’s awesome. Um, okay. So, I want to ask what’s next for you. But also, since we’re running low on time also if there’s anything else that you want to say.

01:35:43TRAN: Mmm, what’s next for me? I think this is a new beginning. Um, not a new beginning because I’m–I think like there’s so many new doors opening not only for me but like for me as an individual that’s part of this community, this Vietnamese American community in Chicago. I think there’s so many exciting—I mean there’s going to be a lot of work and a lot of challenges. But I think the pathways to like really –I wouldn’t say elevate but like really solidifying and making this community stronger is–is endless and boundless. So, I’m excited about that and I think that’s my role in–as one segment of the–the larger collective and that is exciting. So, and that’s I think next steps. Um, (coughs) do I want to say anything else? Mmm…

01:36:52HO: It could also be, um, anything about your parents you want to share.

01:36:57TRAN: Oh, okay.

01:36:58HO: I mean anything—

01:36:59TRAN: Oh. It could be anything.

01:37:01HO: Oh, yeah, anything at all. Um, but if you wanted to like share a memory that maybe your dad told you about or something just so that it’s stated so that when you’re gone one day, it’ll be—

01:37:12TRAN: I think like I was—this–earlier this year, I was faced with something very scary. I don’t know if I really mentioned it earlier in this interview. But there is this like emotional disconnect with my parents. Like even though I love them, there’s—it’s a challenge for me to like share how fully I feel. And like my father was actually like struck by a vehicle in January. And like the police came and said—I woke up to my mom crying. Like we thought he died. So, like I think like it’s important—it is a challenge and there’s inherited trauma of–of–of all of us, of Vietnamese American. Our parents come from war. Our parents come from things that we can’t even imagine. And there is things that—I’m not saying that inherent trauma is right, the way they raised us. They were trying to figure out their own way. So, like it was eye opening to me that—to see that my dad could have died in the short time I have left with him. It’s too—Oh man. I feel like I’m going to cry.

01:38:18HO: That’s okay.

01:38:23TRAN: It’s like (sighs) yeah, like really—as hard as it may be, like try to understand your parents and like break down those barriers before it’s too late. Because I’m lucky that he’s still alive and my mom’s still here. But I don’t want to have regrets, you know. And I understand like it’s—we all have—like I feel like there’s the way I was raised, it’s–it’s inherited that they contributed to like mental health and like end of the—like there’s something like once you’re gone, you’re gone. And if you don’t say what you need to say or reconcile what you need to reconcile, you’ll never have a chance. So, I think like I’m trying to figure that out and work on that. Because like that was–that was hard. And it’s like still like a path towards healing right now. But yeah. I want to just end at that.

01:39:22HO: Okay. Thank you. Um, thank you for taking the time to sit down with me and chat with me. This–this project is–um, a big part of it is–is for a path towards healing for our generation.

01:39:36TRAN: Yeah.

01:39:37HO: Because we do have a whole lot of inherited trauma that we’ve been given. So—

01:39:41TRAN: No, thank you for the opportunity to, you know, share and just speak.