Vo, Amy. Interview November 10, 2022.

00:00:00JENNIFER HO: This is Jennifer Ho interviewing Amy Vo for Children of Refugees, an oral history project on the Vietnamese American experience. Today is November 10, 2022, 10:36 a.m. Pacific Time and we are meeting via Zoom. Thanks for being here with me today, Amy.

00:00:00

00:00:29AMY VO: Thanks, Jenn.

00:00:31HO: Yeah, all right. So, let’s just get into it. Tell me when and where you were born.

00:00:37VO: I was born (redacted), 1988, in Tulsa, Oklahoma in Saint Francis Hospital. (chuckles)

00:00:45HO: Okay. All right. Cool! And tell me about your parents. Where did they come from? And tell me about their migration story.

00:01:00VO: Um, I guess generally I broadly know that my parents both grew up in Sài Gòn (Saigon). So, and my dad also spent some time in the country outside of Saigon in Vĩnh Long (Vinh Long). And my mom’s family originally came from the north, like a couple of hours outside of Hà Nội (Hanoi). And they had to move down. I only learned this recently, actually, like a few months ago, that my mom’s family moved down, I think in the ‘50s or ‘60s. And like if they hadn’t, then her father would have been killed, which is kind of crazy to learn. And I feel like that happens a lot in our family where we learn these like really fundamental or like huge details. I wouldn’t even call them details. They’re like really big events in like our family history that aren’t even talked about or mentioned until, you know, I’m 34, so like 34 years later. Yeah. But–but then they spent most of their like childhoods and, I guess, young adulthoods in Saigon. My mom left maybe when she was in her early twenties, I think, or maybe when she was twenty or late teens.

00:02:37HO: She left Việt Nam (Vietnam) to come to the U.S.?

00:02:40VO: Yeah. She left like the day that Saigon fell in ’75. And my dad left later, in ’78 or ’79.

00:02:53HO: Okay. Did they already know each other in Vietnam?

00:02:57VO: No! They happened to meet each other in Tulsa, because they both started going to college at the University of Tulsa. And I think, if I’m remembering correctly, it’s my–my aunt, one of my mom’s younger sisters, who knew my dad somehow. And that’s how they met, through her.

00:03:19HO: Okay.

00:03:20VO: Yeah. Yeah. I mean the–I–I think the Vietnamese community was pretty small in–in Tulsa, Oklahoma, or like growing actually because I heard that there are a lot of Vietnamese people who are still there now. But I imagine it’s like a smaller community on campus which is like where they mostly met people.

00:03:48HO: Okay. When they came to the U.S., did they land directly in Tulsa or were there like a few stops along the way? Did they stay in a camp somewhere?

00:03:59VO: (nods) Yeah. I’m not a hundred percent sure about my mom. I know she did stay in a camp somewhere, but I don’t remember where it was. And my dad had quite a journey between leaving Vietnam and coming to Tulsa. And he started writing about it recently. And like what I knew before was that he went to Brunei. But I don’t think that’s where his–the camp was that he stayed at. But, um, I’m not sure. And I know that before they came to Tulsa, at least for my dad, his older sister was already in Arkansas. So, yeah. I’m not sure about like the timeline at all.

00:04:50HO: Okay. Okay. That’s very interesting. If we could back track for a moment, and–and if you want to share, do you know why your mom’s family had to move around? You said your grandfather might have been killed. (Vo nods) Do you know anything about that, that you would want to share?

00:05:10VO: Um, from what I understand, it had to do with politics because the north was more communist and I think—I know that when they went to the south, like my uncles joined the military in south Vietnam and then maybe some other family members were working with the government, or in the government, because that was part of why they–my mom was able to leave by, I think, helicopter like the day that Saigon fell. So, I think that was part of it. Yeah. And–and then my understanding of history is fuzzy too, because I know like ‘50s and ‘60s there are already like things happening in the country leading up to the–the war and America joining in that, in conflict with the— I don’t know.

00:06:13HO: Okay. Okay. Has your mom said anything about the journey?

00:06:20VO: She is not a storyteller the way that my dad is. My dad likes telling stories and when we were young like, you know, elementary school age before middle school, he would tell us stories about growing up and his childhood. And so, I always felt like I knew more about my dad. And then my mom kind of thinks— It’s interesting, because maybe the past few years, I started calling my mom almost every morning on my way to work or on my way home from work to talk to her. And then she would tell me stories like that, which is why I think she told me about like why her family left the north. Because she will start like reminiscing. But before that if we were talking and I–my brother and I would ask a question, she’s like “I don’t really remember a lot” or something or say something like that which is why I thought she didn’t have a lot of stories. But she obviously does. Like when she gets into the—when something sparks her memory, she’ll think and talk about it at length. But when you ask her like a more general question, maybe, she’ll have more trouble just thinking of a memory. But then lately she’ll–she’ll talk more about the day that she left and she’ll— Two of the things she always mentions about leaving Vietnam is how it’s related to food. Like her cousin had really severe asthma. And then she’ll say, “It was miraculous. Like the soldiers gave us a can of tuna and he ate it. And then his asthma was gone!” And–or something like that. And then also she said that when they first came to America, they were handing out donuts and she didn’t know—or they were handing out these baked goods, which were donuts. But she didn’t know what they were. And then she asked like “What are these?” Because they were amazing. And she learned about donuts and I was like “That makes so much sense.” She only told us that memory in the past few years. So, it makes so much sense now to me why she loves donuts so much. Like she’s so–she’s so like passionate about Krispy Kreme donuts and like she’ll buy a dozen or half dozen donuts and she’s the type of person who’ll only eat like this much of the donut (indicates a small pinch with her right hand) and she’ll cut a little slice (indicates cutting slices with her hand) off of a donut and eat it throughout the day. (both laugh) But, yeah, she does have like stories like that. But I’ve only started to learn more about those stories that she has because of the—I don’t know—just the way she is about sharing and memory, I think.

00:09:44HO: So, why do you think she’s recently started opening up about her background and her–her life?

00:09:51VO: I think part of it is like for a while it would take me like forty minutes to drive home from work when I was commuting to New York, like the forty minute, thirty minutes to get home from the train station. And then now I have like about forty minutes of driving and walking to work and that’s a lot of time. And–and she will sometimes just talk. And also, I think being older now we’re at a different place in our relationship, as well. I had to—Someone asked me like what my relationship was like with my mother growing up and I was—I thought that was an interesting question. Because it’s like she was my mom, but we didn’t share things with each other like thoughts and feelings. (laughs). But I don’t know how it’s different now, like how–how and why that changes as you get older. I’m still thinking about that.

00:11:15HO: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. And what about your dad? You said he’s kind of a storyteller. Has he said anything about his journey?

00:11:28VO: He says a lot of stuff. (laughs) And I think, you know, like with a lot of things you kind of start shaping the narrative as–as you keep telling it over and over. So, even when we were young, he told us about going to Brunei and he left on a boat with a bunch of other people and how he–he had to—like, they were running out of water and food. And he jumped off the boat with two other people to swim to shore to kind of–to get help or to like see if they could land there or anchor there. And then like now that I’m saying it, like I was maybe nine or so. So, my brother would have been like six, seven. But he would tell us about how those two other people who jumped in with him probably were eaten by sharks because they were never found again, after they jumped off the ship to swim to shore and also that when he got to shore, he got really sick and was put in a jail. And like–like those were the details he told us as children. But then–then when he started writing his memoir, there were so many more details to it like that I never thought of but are, I guess, are obvious. Like how far the swim was from the boat to shore. Like he said it took him almost all day, or like all afternoon and other details like that. So, I think—So, I feel like he’s a storyteller. He likes writing and he likes writing poetry. And he’s shared it with us, and he feels comfortable sharing it—like what he’s written—with other people too. (gray cat jumps on her lap) So, I think that’s part of his personality, which is interesting. Because it’s interesting to think about what people choose to share with you or–and others. Yeah.

00:14:04HO: Are you and your siblings pretty receptive to what he shares?

00:14:10VO: Yeah. We get really—We’re really supportive of him sharing, because like it’s part of our family history and our father’s–our dad’s story. My dad ge–or my brother, he gets very into it and he’ll ask a ton of questions. And I always think his questions are obnoxious but (laughs) it’s just like it’s because he’s like curious and he wants to connect to the person sharing in that way, which I guess I’ve just realized now, saying that out loud (laughs). But, yeah. I wish that he would—my dad—would keep writing his memoir and kind of like keep continue sharing it with us. But he also works a lot. So, sometimes his priority—or not sometimes—all the time his priority is working.

00:15:24HO: Yeah. Sure. Okay. Thank you. Okay, so let’s talk more about you. You were born in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Were you —Tell me about your siblings. How many of you are there? What order you were born in?

00:15:44VO: I’m the oldest and then I have a younger brother. He is three years younger than me. So, after Tulsa, we moved to California. I always forget which city, but I think it’s Chino Hills or La Brea in southern California, when I was two, I guess, and then my brother came along. And we were in California for a couple more years. We moved when I was six, so when he was three. But it was nice being a big sister, I guess, (chuckles) sometimes. Yeah.

00:16:39HO: Why did you move from Tulsa to California?

00:16:46VO: My dad, when I was still like one or two, he was study–or he was in a doctoral program studying petroleum engineering. And so he got a job after he graduated, I think. And so, he worked for Unocal at the time before—I mean, years later they merged or Chevron bought them–bought them or whatever that—however that goes. But that was the reason why we moved a lot was because of his job.

00:17:29HO: Okay. Is he still in that line of work today?

00:17:33VO: Yes. He is. He is almost, well, he should be retiring soon. But he says that every year, that he’s retiring soon. But he’s been with the same company for–since then, since–since Oklahoma or California, I guess.

00:17:58HO: Oh, wow!

00:17:59VO: Since California.

00:18:01HO: Okay, that's great. Okay. So, where did you—So, I guess two questions. And you can answer them together if you want to. But after—How long did you live in California? And then also I’m curious about your–your childhood in these different places, if there was a Vietnamese community. You mentioned briefly that there was a Vietnamese community in Tulsa. But also, I wanted to hear about in California and then the other places you grew up and what your relationship–or your family’s relationship to the community was like.

00:18:41VO: Yeah. I think it was in California we lived further away—I think a big part of community, at least in our family, is being close to family. Since our extended family is so large. So, in California, I remember that my grandmothers, both of them were alive while we were growing up but we never met our grandfathers. Or there was one grandfather we did meet, but—or I met—but I was too young to remember. Like family would have to visit us in California because of where we lived. I think most people lived up in San Jose or—Yeah. I think it’s mostly San Jose. We have one family member in Chino Hills and there’s like a complicated history with that, too. For me, community is really linked to family because those are the main links that we had with like the Vietnamese community rather than friends even. Even now I think my parents like a lot of their social lives revolve around family rather than like friends or the wider community. But family can be really huge since it’s like they can keep like they can keep straight in their heads all of their cousins and their cousin’s cousins and stuff like that. So, it’s always–it always feels much bigger than it sounds, I guess. And then like in California we didn’t live near family. They live in San Jose and I think that was a few hours away. But they did visit sometimes. And a lot of the time family who were still in Tulsa would visit—or not a lot of the time, but like sometimes they would visit, especially when my brother was born. My grandmothers came to visit and help out with the baby and to watch me. And–and so we were in California for only about three and a half or four years and we moved to Louisiana which feels really far away from much community. But apparently there was a Vietnamese community in the area. Because at my school—the elementary school that I went to—there was another Vo family. And they had a lot of kids and my mom always talks about how she would meet someone at school and they’d be like “Are all those kids yours?” because they also had the same last name. But like I never—They weren’t in my class. I think they were younger or older. And–and then I did have friends, but there’s like one or two friends who I played with on the playground. And I went to someone’s house like once or twice. But I feel like growing up we were always very, I don’t want to say insular, but we were always like very centered in our family, our immediate family and our extended family. I had cousins who were around my age, like the same age as me or like between one and three or–one and three years younger or so. And they would visit a lot too. So, we had a few family vacations where they’d drive from Dallas because by that time, when I was like six, people started moving down from Tulsa to Dallas in like the suburbs around Dallas. And so like the–the cousins on my mom’s side of the family were closer in age to me. The oldest cousin was maybe five years older than me. Whereas on my dad’s side, he was the youngest of like nine or ten kids. So, the oldest cousin on that side was like only eight or ten years younger than my dad, (chuckles) so a lot older than me. So, we were always—my brother and I were always closer with my maternal cousins. And I was trying to say that we sometimes went on summer vacation like–like long road trips to Alabama to the beach. And we did that a couple times. So, I think then when we moved overseas it was a lot harder to have community like in the way that we did with our families. We would see our relatives every summer and like spend two or almost three months with them. So, they were still a big part of our lives but for the rest of the year, it’s like very different. So, we first moved to Indonesia when I was nine and since my dad worked and works for a petroleum engineering–or like in the petroleum industry, a lot of people are very conservative and white and Republican and Christian. So, the first place we moved to was also really small and the majority of the expat community was that type of person—so, like everyone in my class and the classes were very small. There was like one year where the eighth-grade class was only three students. And then after eighth grade, you had either move or send your kids to boarding school in Singapore. And that was why we moved when I was in eighth grade, because my parents didn’t want me to go to boarding school and be on my own, which I am grateful for. But that was a very difficult move. But I feel like there was no community in–in Indonesia. I did have friends that I saw, and I went to their houses. But I think it’s–I always think it’s interesting how— (camera freezes) Um, so in Indonesia, I think since we didn’t have community in that way, I think that was why my parents were looking for Buddhist temple for us to go to which I think was really interesting because that was the only place that we lived where they did that. And I feel like that’s part of–that must have been part of them seeking to find connection in some way. So, Indonesia is like a predominantly Muslim country, but there’s like a small ethnic minority of Chinese Buddhists. And so, we did find a temple and we went there several times. And I remember we tried one place first. And these experiences were really strange as a little kid. Because like you go somewhere and you’re like “I don’t know what’s happening.” And then also like with these kind of religious things, my parents didn’t really explain them to me. They were just like “We’re doing this,” and no reason why or like they tell–tell me to hold the incense and pray or whatever. But then I didn’t know what praying was, kind of, like just think of things that I want. (laughs) But like at the time, especially when I was like eleven and twelve, I would start praying a lot. This is—I’ve got kind of getting off track a little. But like it’d be very concerning to me to like pray for the health and safety of my family. But anyway, I think that was why we started going to temple was to find some kind of connection to some part of our culture in a–in a different country and in a different country among so many like white Christians. And when we moved again, it was to Bangkok, Thailand although we lived in like a suburb which was another ex–expat community. And there were lots of different types of people because it was a much bigger place. Like I mentioned the other—and Indonesia is very, very small. And so, moving to Bangkok is like the school was a lot bigger. The community was a lot bigger and the people who lived in the community weren’t just people who had kids going to the school there. And there were more—I guess that was the same with the oth–with living in Indonesia but you don’t—I don’t know. Anyway, it was a lot bigger, and Thailand is a Buddhist country. So, like there were more opportunities to kind of connect to like broadly Southeast Asian culture. And we also didn’t go to temple anymore (laughs) which is really interesting. I don’t—I think when my dad did work with people who were Vietnamese, he would always invite them over for dinner and stuff like that. But then that didn’t happen too often. But also living in Thailand, we were a lot closer to Vietnam and Bangkok is a more attractive destination to visit. So, like we still had family who were in, I guess, Hồ Chí Minh City (Ho Chi Minh City). And we were able to—First we went to see them. So, like soon after we moved to Thailand, we went to see them. So, I think that’s where the–the lines of like community intersecting with family were being like—family being a big part of community comes back again. And then they also came to visit us in Thailand. Yeah. I think—And then for myself like I’ve only been more interested in reconnecting with my Vietnamese-ness, I guess. Especially now that I’m like in the northeast where it feels like there aren’t a lot of Vietnamese people. So, like I joined an employee—like a staff group, I guess, at work. They have like different—They’re kind of identity based because there’s like a women’s—they call them ERGs, which are Employee Resource Groups. There’s like a women’s group and an LGBTQIA group. And then there’s a south Asian, I think, and a Princetonians of color group and there’s also an Asian staff group. So, I joined them and like I recently organized a tour of the library and special collections. And I got to meet some other people who are Vietnamese which was really exciting and like learning about—like one of them grew up in New Jersey. So, I was like fascinated by that. (laughs) And it does sound like a lot of the time like the communities kind of center around a church or something. And then it sounds like they’re not like in my immediate area. There’s like different little communities in other areas around New Jersey. And I know there’s like a big—there’s kind of like a little Saigon in Philadelphia. And when my parents came to visit us one time, we went to visit Philly and go there. But I haven’t been back. Philadelphia is like an hour and fifteen minutes from where I am. So, it’s not a short drive. Yeah. But I feel like building and finding community is really hard when it’s not—I don’t know. Like if I were—Like my brother lives in Los Angeles. Like he could just go to like different parts of Los Angeles to find like cultural or community activities to join. But I feel like it’s not quite the same as when we were in Indonesia and like were really isolated and felt really different. But it’s still kind of close. (chuckles) Yeah. And it’s also weird being an expat in anoth–in an overseas country when you’re an American. And then you’re in an Asian country as an Asian person or—and people don’t get that. They like–they think you’re either like from, you say—If you say you’re—I remember like when I moved–first moved to Thailand, I–we had to introduce ourselves. And I said I was American. And then someone was like retorted and said I wasn’t because, you know, I’m not white. And like—so, that experience is really interesting, too, because people who are Thai think that I’m Japanese or Chinese or something else that I’m not. And then, you know, other people think I’m Thai or like if I tell someone I grew up in Thailand, they’ll think I’m Thai and stuff like that. So, it’s really weird.

00:35:26HO: Mmm. That is–yeah–that’s a weird experience that I think a lot of people like us can relate to but that needs to be spoken about more. So, I’m glad you brought that up.

00:35:38VO: Yeah.

00:35:39HO: So, you said that you’re–you’re like–you’re getting in touch with your Vietnamese-ness, and I like the way you put that. How did you feel as a kid–as a kid like in all these different places. Like how did you–how did you identify yourself then? Like, you know, whether consciously or not. Like what did you perceive yourself as? And how–and related to that, I’m more interested in how you thought about your own identity? But I’m also curious about if your parents, intentionally or not, kind of tried to sway your identity one way or the other. Like how much did they try to hold on to–hold on to this heritage? And–and in what specific ways if I can ask? Like I guess obvious examples would be like, you know, taking you to the temple and praying. But–but what other ways did they–did they hold on to identity? And then in what ways did they just kind of like “eh,” like let you be American so to speak. (Vo laughs)

00:36:44VO: Yeah. That’s a really good question. And I don’t even know if I remember like what I thought of myself as. I really do think, though—Because like it was a while ago, and I’m guessing that because I introduced myself as being American (chuckles) like that’s what I kind of thought of myself as. And I do also remember like other Asian students who were at the international school with me asking like what ethnicity I was. And like then I would say I was Vietnamese, but I think it’s weird living overseas because your nationality kind of matters, I guess in a weird way, like legally as well. But like how you can connect to other people because of what–whatever shared cultural touchpoints there are. Because I went to a school, and I didn’t realize this until later. But because, um, but because my dad’s company paid for us, paid for our tuition and a lot of other American kids’ dads or moms or guardians or whatever, like their jobs would pay for tuition too. Tuition was really high so like a lot of the Thai kids who went to school with us were really wealthy. And like I think that was a really—now I’m getting off topic again because (chuckles and twirls her right pointer finger in the air) —

00:38:41HO: That’s okay. That’s all right.

00:38:43VO: So, going back though is like I think I really thought of myself as American because we kind of—at least at that school, like the cliques and the groups of the way that kids kind of group each other is mostly by nationality and language. So, there were always a lot of–there were–there’s like the Japanese kids, the Taiwanese kids, the Indian kids, and like–and then the American kids which also included Canadian, Australian, and New Zealand and British kids. So, it was like that was a weird mix because I feel like things, you know, like nationality and language have some sep–like some ways that they intersect in interesting ways, I guess. But then, um, but then like my mom still today would be like she used the word American as an interchangeable word with white. Like she’ll say, “They’re American.” But she actually means they’re white because, you know, we’re also American but when we lived overseas it was like that was–she would–we would identify as being Americans, I guess. It’s very weird like how it changed from the context of where we were. And I think that the only thing that was really Vietnamese about us was like the food that we ate, because at home my parents didn’t make us speak Vietnamese or like they didn’t punish us if we only spoke English. Because we would only respond in English. So, I think they gave up on that. But they still, you know, would use a mix of English and Vietnamese with us. And I think that, yeah, I don’t want to just think of identity as just being language and food and religion. But those are the big things that I think about, I think, when I think of my identity. And I know there all the–a lot of others, little things as well that show up in other, more subtle ways, I guess. But those are the big things that—the bigger, obvious things that I can think of.

00:41:48HO: Okay. Okay. (Vo laughs) Thank you for that. Tell us—So, you mentioned food. Tell me what mealtimes were like in your family. Like who did the–the cooking and the cleaning and were your parents or your mom—Well, I don’t want to assume anything but were your parents (Vo laughs) like open to different types of food? Yeah. What do you think of when you think about your childhood and eating?

00:42:17VO: I think I was really lucky (chuckles) because like my mom was the cook in the family. So, after my dad finished his Ph.D., my mom stopped working. She used to be an accountant and supported the family and supported my dad through school. But then he got a full-time job and that became like he became the primary—what’s the word—the primary—

00:42:49HO: Breadwinner?

00:42:50VO: Yeah. (chuckles) And so she spent a lot of time cooking for us. And I feel really lucky because like I definitely couldn’t like make the kind of meals that she did. Because like she always had two or three dishes at the table even if—and then she’ll, you know, like talking to her now, she’ll say like “It’s really easy to just, you know, sauté some vegetables with—and then focus on a bigger dish.” But like that’s a lot of time. And she had like a repertoire of foods that she’d always make but then like she always like try–she still likes trying to make new dishes and lately she’s—well, not lately but like over the past five or so years, my parents have both been really into the k-dramas. So, like she’s been cooking a lot of, and trying out a lot of Korean dishes. And like before that she tried out a lot of Japanese dishes because she loves watching cooking shows on NHK (Japan Broadcasting Corporation) and stuff like that. And even—

00:44:12HO: What’s NHK?

00:44:14VO: It’s—I don’t know what it stands for but it’s like the Japanese channel on TV.

00:44:22HO: Oh.

00:44:23VO: And they have like an English language version, so like an international version as well. And that plays in the U.S. too. But I think like in Japan like NHK is the big broadcasting corporation.

00:44:43HO: Okay.

00:44:45VO: I guess it maybe, maybe analogous to like the BBC or something.

00:44:49HO: Okay.

00:44:49VO: I don’t know. Yeah. But they played that on US t–US television and my mom likes the cooking shows. And I think she–she definitely likes more east Asian and southeast Asian cuisine. But she’s also tried cooking like Italian food and other like “American” foods. I remember this chick–this really gross chicken salad she tried making that had like potato chips on it. I think that’s the only thing that she ever made that I really didn’t like that she tried making. But yeah, she’s always—And like that’s the way that she–that’s her–that’s the way she shows her care. And even not just for her family but like for guests and stuff. Like the way that she puts so much care and attention to her cooking and meal planning, I feel like has really affected how I also, you know, show care to people now too. Because she really goes all out! (chuckles) Like during visits not even like several days of visiting but even just like one meal visit, she’ll cook a lot of food. And mealtimes were—I really liked the meals that I grew up having with my family. Because we’d like all sit down and there would be several dishes to eat and it would always be delicious. (chuckles) Yeah. My brother was a picky eater growing up but I don’t remember him being picky at home, just at restaurants. When we’d go to a restaurant, we’d have to stop at a fast-food chain if there was one and get him French fries and chicken nuggets or whatever. But I don’t remember that being an issue at home. So, I–my mom knew how to cook for a picky eater. (laughs)

00:47:24HO: That’s awesome. It sounds like she’s an amazing cook.

00:47:27VO: She is! Like it’s funny because of the way she is when you want—And because her food is so good, we’ll want to learn how to cook from her. But her impulse is just to make it without showing you how to. My brother always tells the story now about how his–his partner wanted to learn how to make chả giò (cha gio, egg rolls) and–but then she got home late from work. And when they got—And my mom was—But first like she wanted to learn how to make it and my mom said she would show Shannon how to make it. But then when Shannon got home from work, my mom already made them, because she (laughs) because, I don’t know.

00:48:21HO: Yeah. It’s sounds like your mom is similar to my mom, and I would describe my mom as maybe impatient?

00:48:28VO: Yeah. Maybe that’s the—She is impatient. And also, I think she would dismiss any like, any—not criticism but like if–but when Shannon came home and was like “Oh, I wanted to learn how to make this with you.” I think my mom would be like “You’re coming home so late. You’re tired. So, I made them.” Like, “I did it for you!” (both laugh)

00:48:58HO: That's nice. What’s your favorite thing that your mom makes? Like if you were having a birthday dinner, and she was like “I’ll make you whatever you want.” What would you ask for?

00:49:09VO: Every time I go home, I ask for bún riêu (bun rieu) because my mom’s bun rieu is really good. I tried making it once and I think I even–she even—So, she loves cooking and I guess she loves me so much that I’ll ask for a modified recipe, and she’ll write one for me. I know a lot of people —like I feel like a lot of people with, you know, immigrant parents who cook will like–they’ll–their response is like “There’s no recipe. I just use my, you know, my intuition.” But my mom—maybe it’s my luck that she also likes recording things. So, she also has like written up almost or like the majority of her recipes or like the ones that we really like.

00:50:10HO: Wow!

00:50:12VO: Yeah. And this was like early 2000 so there was a lot of clip art in the Word documents. And she printed them out and put them in books or binders for us. But like when I wanted a vegetarian version of bun rieu she wrote one for me. (laughs)

00:50:35HO: Oh!

00:50:36VO: Yeah.

00:50:38HO: That’s amazing! I’ve never heard of that from an Asian mother. (laughs) So, you are—

00:50:42VO: I know!

00:50:43HO: —really lucky!

00:50:45VO: Yeah. She—I feel like that and also like she loves taking photos and for a long time she–and still now, she like has a bunch of photo albums. And like she’s still working through them because, you know, now we take photos like–like it’s nothing. (laughs) So, I think that–that’s slowed her down a lot because now she takes so many pictures. But yeah. I would say that’s my favorite dish. I know that when I was younger, chicken curry was my favorite because my family would tease me a lot about how I would lick the bowl clean because I loved it so much. (laughs) But it’s really hard to pick one dish because she’s really great at cooking.

00:51:47HO: Mmm. That’s cool. Yeah. Curry is my favorite Vietnamese thing. But only the way my mom makes it. So—

00:51:54VO: Yeah. Yeah! (laughs)

00:52:00HO: So, you mentioned—I guess I want to back track again. You mentioned briefly about your grandparents. Can you tell me more about them and anything that you know about them and where they lived during your life? And how often you–you saw them? I think you said you didn’t really see them. But anything you wanted to add about them?

00:52:24VO: Yeah. I did see my grandmothers every summer when we visited the United States.

00:52:31HO: Where did they live?

00:52:34VO: For the two—Um, my bà ngoại (ba ngoai, maternal grandmother) lived in Tulsa. She lived with her son and her daughter. And then my bà nội (ba noi, paternal grandmother) lived in Dallas or like around Dallas. And she lived with one of my aunts. I don’t remember which number she is. My dad has a lot of sisters. He has two brothers. That’s easy to remember. And then the rest are sisters. And I re–never met my grandfathers. One of–My dad’s dad, my ông nội (ong noi, paternal grandfather), lived–or never got to leave Vietnam. He died in Vietnam. And my dad has talked about like how the last time he saw him was like before he left Vietnam. So, that was—I think there’s—Well, I can’t speak to that, how my dad feels about that. I think he feels, you know, sad about it. And he’s written a poem about it. (laughs) So, I feel like there’s some kind of–there’s a little resolution there because he’s able to talk about it. But, you know, it’s like a–a–I wouldn’t call it a regret, but like a weight maybe. And my–my ông ngoại (ong ngoai, maternal grandfather), I think he was in California and that’s where he’s–he was–I don’t know. I think he was cremated and he’s in Tulsa, though. I don’t remember the timeline or what happened with him. But he did make it to America for a little while. I think he might have died in ’90 or something. And then–But then my grandmothers, they–they lived until 2013, I think. They actually died a week apart and I was in grad school at the time. Like one grandmother was 90 or 91, my–my ba noi. And then ba ngoai was in her late 80s. It’s kind of crazy how they both passed around the same time. So, I think what my paren—My parents do đám giỗ (dam gio, death anniversary) every year for them, and also my uncle who passed, and also my grandfathers. So, I do–we do think about them a lot or continue to. But I do know that my ba noi was in—I think she was born—if she was 90, then she was like born in the ‘20s. And my dad had once or twice mentioned that she lived in, during, you know, like the Japanese occupation. So, she—But she never—And I was never really able to talk to either of my grandmothers. Because my Vietnamese is really bad (laughs). I’m able to understand basic things that they would say to me, but then more complicated things were difficult. And I think it was—Since they did live until their–until 2013, that was when I started to be more interested in my cultural heritage. And I tried learning Vietnamese on my own. And that’s been a struggle. (laughs) But like in their last year or so, I wrote them letters in Vietnamese, and I feel glad that I was able to connect with them in that way before they were gone. Because I wasn’t really able to, you know, before that. And I feel like as kids I took them for–as a kid, I took them for granted. They were just always around. They didn’t really do a lot. At least my ba ngoai didn’t do a lot. I think it was hard for her because she—Like ba noi had some many family members around, like her daughters, her grandchildren. And she seemed to have a more active social life. But then being in Tulsa, I think it was harder for ba ngoai to have an active social life and community. And so, she was home a lot. And–and we were home a lot too, but we were kids and just wanted to have fun doing kid stuff. Yeah.

00:58:10HO: Did you ever get any kind of sense from them about–about how they felt about being in the U.S. and about leaving Vietnam?

00:58:25VO: No. Not at all. (chuckles) Like–like my communication skills were really limited. And then also I, since we were only–we saw them like two, a few weeks out of the year, too. So, like that also made it harder to–to connect with them, I think. Because during the summer, it was like always so exciting to get to back to the States and see my cousins who I was really close to. And so, my—And also like when we were in Indonesia, there weren’t—the only fast-food place was a KFC in the city. And like we’d be so excited to eat junk food and like do American type things, like go to the movies and watch TV, that it was never important to me. And I regret that like now. To talk to them or try to talk to them. So, most of our conversations were like about eating, like “Did you have lunch yet?” And it’s funny how my ba ngoai would–we would have like junk food for lunch and then she’d ask if we ate, and we’d say we’d had Wendy’s or something. And she’d say “That’s not really lunch. You have to have like a meal with rice to like, you know—” (chuckles) So, like conversations are limited to food and like I think that’s part of like how food is such a big part of being Vietnamese. Because like there’s so many conversations and like questions about food. (laughs) Like “did you eat yet?” and then like comments about food and how much you’re eating, and what you look like— (laughs) and stuff like that. But yeah. Yeah, my Vietnamese was very bad, and I think that part of it was because we lived away from our relatives and from community. And I think maybe my other–my other relatives thought that we weren’t as Vietnamese for not being able to speak Vietnamese. I think a lot of people like have that experience among their family members. (laughs)

01:01:30HO: Yeah. Did your—I have so many, full of questions related to what you just said (both are laughing) so I’m trying to pick one. So, do you feel like your–your Vietnamese language ability—Or how does your–how does your level of language ability affect your interactions with other Vietnamese people, whether they’re Vietnamese American like us or like people like from Vietnam? Like how–how does that play into how you perceive yourself and how you think they perceive you?

01:02:03VO: Yeah. That’s a really big question. (Both chuckle) I talked to someone recently who was saying that she grew up in Vietnam until she was like ten and then came to the United States. And so, Eng–English is her second language but being an adult now like I’m guessing in her forties or—that she’s lost a lot of that Vietnamese language. And I felt a lot of like regret from her about that because I think it’s such an integral part of being, you know, of saying that you’re from somewhere or that you’re from some part of some culture. And people make a big deal out of it, too. Like–like my cousins who are definitely like fluent or more fluent than I am and like they’ll always tease me about it. And then–and then I join in sometimes too, because my brother’s Vietnamese is worse now, about like, you know, pronunciation and stuff. And I feel like, I don’t know. It’s not cool. (laughs) Like I know that I join in on it sometimes too but like language isn’t part of—it’s only a little part of it, I guess, of who you are. And, um, I forgot the rest of your question.

01:04:05HO: Oh, that’s okay. It was a long question. It was just related to language and how people see you and how you see yourself. And then also how it affects your interactions with other Vietnamese people.

01:04:20VO: Right. There was a day recently where I met Vietnamese people in the area. It was that work event. And we were talking because there was another Vietnamese person there. And we were talking about surnames. And I said my surname, but I said it the American way. And he corrected me. (laughs) And so like–like it’s funny but it’s also like–it also feels another way. Like, I don’t know. Maybe I haven’t–I’m still struggling with that question. I think it’s something that may never be resolved. Because I feel like I’ve lost a lot from not having that language. And I feel like it probably was my first language, you know, before I went to school. And then like even my cousin who is only three months older than me, when she started school, she had to be in an ESL program, because they only spoke Vietnamese at home. And I feel like, yeah, I don’t know. I feel like I’ve lost a lot by losing my language. And I think that’s why that other person I met feels that way too. Like you lose something from losing language. And it makes me feel a little emotional. Yeah. Like even though I’ve never been fluent except, you know, at a toddler age fluency (laughs) it still feels like a loss and—Because you—like I mentioned, I never was able to have conversations with my elders, my grandmothers. And I think that’s—And like that’s something you can never get back.

01:06:52HO: Yeah. Thank you for answering. And even though it was emotional, I appreciate that. It’s something I think about a lot, so I felt like I had to ask you.

01:07:04VO: Yeah.

01:07:07HO: Okay. Let me just ask one more question, since I think we’ve been talking for a while. I say that and I–I’m trying to choose a question (laughs) because I just–I still have so many. I’m sorry. We’ll have to cut this part. (Both laugh)

01:07:35VO: Okay.

01:07:39HO: Do you–Do your–Did your parents ever talk to you about what it means to be a Vietnamese person?

01:07:56VO: Not really. Like not directly. A lot of what they taught me about it is like–it’s like how I mentioned we’d go to temple or like go to some kind of ceremony and they’d tell me what to do, but not explain it. (chuckles) I feel like the explanation part would really fill out what it is to be Vietnamese. But at the same time, you don’t really need it, I guess, because I don’t know. Like even not knowing what it is that I’m doing (laughs) or understanding why it is I do things, it’s like coming from them and it’s coming from like generations of people before them. So, it feels Vietnamese. (laughs) Like they’ve never—I guess I’ve had some moments, not with them, but like with other relatives who–who going back to the language thing like I think like because there were times because they didn’t have—or didn’t know words or didn’t know how to say something, they’d ask me like—Or maybe even with food, I don’t know. Like little things. They’d ask me if I—like how American I was versus how Vietnamese I was. And that’s like—But that was never something my parents would say. So, I feel like their instruction (laughs) has been very indirect. And I feel like–I feel like I’m the type of person that, with a lot of things, I feel like I’ve missed things when people are indirect. Like I feel so complicated when someone says or does something and they have layers of intention behind that, and then I didn’t–I don’t think about it. And I didn’t realize like that’s what they meant. But I hope that like in some subconscious way (chuckles) I–I know that’s what they meant by, I don’t know, not sure if that makes sense.

01:10:52HO: Do you mean that like when people are indirect about their intentions when they’re communicating them? That’s–that’s related to being Vietnamese. (Vo laughs) Because we just–we just do things because it’s traditional. Like is that possibly where you were going?

01:11:10VO: That’s part of it. I guess part of what I’m thinking is like in social interactions my mom will sometimes explain why or why not she will say or not say something to someone else. And I feel like seeing the level of nuance in like that type of communication, I’m like—It makes me feel like being indirect and like implying something. Like that mode of communication is a little Vietnamese, maybe. But–and that’s why I’ve never really received like a direct like “This is what it means to be Vietnamese. Like we do things this way.” But also, I wonder like how much of it is just like individual quirks. Because my cousin says Vietnamese people are always late. But my parents are always early. (chuckles) So, I thought like being early was being Vietnamese. (laughs) But–but that might just be my parents who are very on time and like my dad will be ready to go something thirty minutes early. And I think that’s his anxiety. (laughs) Yeah. That’s what I mean. Like you get hints like that. But sometimes it’s hard to know. Like what it means or like yeah. I don’t know if that makes sense.

01:13:18HO: Yeah. I–Well I mean it was a complicated question and it’s not something that’s easily defined, I don’t think, by anybody. So, I appreciate your thoughts on it. So, thank you. Okay. So, let’s wrap up this conversation and then in our next conversations we’ll talk more about–we’ll continue to talk about community and identity but also about your adulthood. (Both laugh)

01:13:45VO: Okay.

01:13:47HO: Okay.

01:13:48VO: Well, thank you, Jenn.

01:13:49HO: Yeah. Thanks Amy.